[01:02] <Kyral> Can someone help me explain why UbuntuGuide isn't good?
[01:02] <LaserJock> Kyral: what, the unoffical one?
[01:02] <Kyral> Yah
[01:03] <Kyral> A flamewar erupted in the Forums channel when I ask people to stop recommending the Guide
[01:03] <LaserJock> I think that it isn't being maintained and it has what is considered to be bad advice
[01:03] <LaserJock> I once recommended it on #ubuntu and got torn to bits ;-)
[01:04] <Kyral> I'm getting targetted
[01:05] <manicka> by who?
[01:05] <LaserJock> for recommending it?
[01:05] <rob1> yes its crap
[01:05] <Kyral> for speaking out against it
[01:05] <rob1> its not up to date for breezy either
[01:06] <rob1> besides that, it breaks a lot of peoples pcs as it sometimes gives bad advice
[01:06] <LaserJock> I always found it easy to navigate but I never used it much
[01:06] <Kyral> Then can I get backup?
[01:06] <Kyral> #ubuntuforums
[01:06] <rob1> and its not open, one guy controls it and he can do whatever he wants, whereas the official guide is open for all to contribute
[01:07] <manicka> it still states that it's a 5.04 guide
[01:07] <mdke> rob1, that is not quite accurate
[01:07] <mdke> the guide is being maintained I believe, by a group of people
[01:08] <rob1> mdke, still, its closed
[01:08] <mdke> i would recommend against speaking out against it
[01:08] <rob1> I can't contribute in an easy way if I wanted to
[01:08] <mdke> rob1, that doesn't matter
[01:08] <mdke> what matters is that speaking out against it will foster differences between the two communities
[01:08] <rob1> I'm not, I'm just pointing out why our guide is better
[01:09] <manicka> I stopped pointing people towards the guide some time ago
[01:10] <manicka> help.ubuntu.com is much better
[01:10] <rob1> someone asked is all
[01:15] <rob1> oh?
[01:15] <LaserJock> wow, that is getting nasty in #ubuntuforums
[01:15] <mdke> what is getting nasty?
[01:15] <Kyral> I brought up the Wiki/UbuntuGuide issue
[01:15] <rob1> it sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds in there
[01:16] <LaserJock> hmm, well maybe I haven't seen enough irc fights
[01:16] <LaserJock> seemed pretty heated to me
[01:16] <mdke> what is the problem?
[01:17] <LaserJock> I guess Kyral suggested that they not recommend the Unoffical Ubuntu Guide
[01:17] <mdke> the wiki seems to have been dragged into the debate
[01:17] <mdke> and I've spent several hours recently trying to calm that down
[01:17] <rob1> yeah your bound to stir up stuff with that comment
[01:18] <LaserJock> well on #ubuntu they don't recomend it I don't think
[01:19] <rob1> no
[01:19] <rob1> they don't
[02:44] <mdke> rob1, applied, thanks
[02:45] <mdke> rob1, ah crap, did you change the css location?
[02:47] <rob1> no
[02:47] <rob1> ?
[02:47] <mdke> <link rel="stylesheet" href="faqguide-all_files/faqguide.css" type="text/css">
[02:47] <mdke> no idea wtf that came from
[02:48] <rob1> oh, that might of happen when I downloaded a copy, blame firefox
[02:48] <mdke> oh probably
[02:48] <mdke> i'll fix now
[02:49] <rob1> thanks
[02:49] <rob1> do you know of a good linux distro for little kids?
[02:49] <mdke> yeah
[02:49] <mdke> ubuntu
[02:49] <rob1> heh
[02:49] <rob1> I'm talking a three year old
[02:49] <mdke> ok css working
[02:49] <mdke> three year olds are too young for computers
[02:50] <mdke> (IMO)
[02:50] <rob1> nah
[02:50] <rob1> he loves playing quake and stuff
[02:50] <rob1> I just got him his own puter'
[02:51] <rob1> brb
[02:51] <mdke> damn
[02:51] <mdke> failure to get linux on ipod
[02:55] <Madpilot> a 3 year old playing Quake? gah...
[02:56] <mdke> scary shit
[03:26] <rob1> heh
[03:26] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
[03:29] <mdke> hello
[03:30] <rob1> ubuntu has icewm doesn't it?
[03:30] <mdke> sure
[03:30] <LaserJock> so why does doc.ubuntu.com exist? Is it anything more than the DocumentationTeam wiki?
[03:30] <rob1> LaserJock, yes
[03:30] <mdke> LaserJock, it is not a wiki at all
[03:30] <mdke> it is just a website
[03:31] <mdke> our homepage
[03:31] <mdke> it hosts our work in progress documentation
[03:31] <LaserJock> ah, because that would be hard to do on the wiki, but is easy in html?
[03:32] <rob1> ?
[03:32] <mdke> eh?
[03:32] <LaserJock> work in progress
[03:32] <rob1> theres a set of scripts that make html versions of our xml docs
[03:32] <mdke> LaserJock, we work in docbook xml. the previews are generated into html
[03:32] <rob1> and put them there
[03:32] <Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
[03:32] <mdke> hi corey
[03:33] <LaserJock> ok, I am just trying to figure out the difference, I think I see it now
[03:33] <mdke> gah
[03:33] <mdke> i know I'm up late if I get my cron mail
[03:33] <rob1> heh
[03:33] <mdke> LaserJock, basically doc.ubuntu.com is our website, and help.ubuntu.com is where documentation is hosted. That is the current situation anyhow
[03:33] <rob1> I'm doing a server install on an old box, then install icewm
[03:34] <mdke> sounds good
[03:34] <rob1> hopefully it should go smoothly
[03:35] <mdke> i did a server plus xubuntu-desktop on here the other day
[03:35] <mdke> i prefer gnome though
[03:35] <LaserJock> openbox is also quite nice
[03:36] <rob1> does it have a decent gui?
[03:37] <LaserJock> what do you mean by gui?
[03:37] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: how did that laptop install go?
[03:37] <rob1> well a three year old will be using it, so he needs to click on stuff
[03:38] <Madpilot> rob1: you're not going to make him learn the command line first?
[03:38] <Madpilot> :P
[03:38] <rob1> heh
[03:38] <mdke> haha
[03:38] <LaserJock> rob1: you could do it but it might be some work
[03:38] <rob1> he needs to learn to spell first :)
[03:38] <mdke> he needs his quake hit
[03:38] <rob1> yes
[03:38] <mdke> so get the gui up fast
[03:38] <rob1> he knows the asdw keys
[03:38] <mdke> lol
[03:39] <mdke> that's just so wrong
[03:39] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, after I fought with windows for a while, I decided to come back with a livecd and use that. I am going tomorrow
[03:39] <Madpilot> rob1: so he could function just fine on some IRC channels, I guess
[03:39] <LaserJock> openbox is pretty minimal, last time I used it was with gentoo so I don't know about how it might work in Ubuntu
[03:39] <rob1> heh, #ubuntuforums for one
[03:39] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: I thought you were going with Vector Linux on that laptop?
[03:39] <rob1> (sorry mdke)
[03:40] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, I was, but there was some data that needs to be pulled off first
[03:40] <rob1> vector is too bright, reminds me of xp
[03:40] <rob1> and I hate slackware packaging..
[03:40] <rob1> heh
[03:41] <Burgundavia> well MenusRevised is getting lots of comments
[03:42] <mdke> good stuff
[03:43] <mdke> Kinnison Senior was quite right about removing xsane, that blows
[03:43] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: do you mean MenusRevisited ?
[03:45] <Madpilot> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MenusRevisited/Comments
[03:45] <rob1> hmm I dont know about hiding totem
[03:45] <mdke> hiding totem? geez
[03:45] <mdke> who are these fascists
[03:45] <rob1> ms don't hide mediaplayer
[03:45] <LaserJock> Madpilot: ok thanks, I wasn't sure
[03:46] <mdke> blimey
[03:47] <mdke> i don't like that spec much actually, now I read it
[03:47] <mdke> purging system tools >_<
[03:47] <mdke> applications seem to be getting put into the administration menu which are not administrative
[03:48] <rob1> yep
[03:48] <Madpilot> TobiasWolf has a good point: "For new inexperienced users functional completeness of the system is mirrored in the application menus."
[03:49] <rob1> whist the menus could do with a little bit of cleaning up, I don't think we need to go as nuts as that
[03:49] <mdke> agreed
[03:49] <mdke> in fact it will be harmful
[03:50] <LaserJock> by hide it means that we can open the menu editor and get them back, right ?
[03:50] <rob1> LaserJock, yeah but how stupid is that
[03:50] <rob1> ?
[03:50] <LaserJock> rob1: well, I can kinda see having a clean default
[03:50] <rob1> just kill the unused things like bittorrent etc
[03:51] <rob1> Linux is all about choice, by killing half of the menu we are removing a lot of that choice
[03:51] <Madpilot> moving some of this stuff off the menus basically means having to launch it thru Nautilus - like torrents, if you want to re-launch a .torrent you've already got on your system...
[03:52] <rob1> hmm openbox+rox looks nice
[03:52] <LaserJock> rob1: I agree, I think you can reorginize or make the menus clearer without removing half the apps
[03:53] <mdke> Madpilot, you need both options in my opinion, I open lots of programs from the menus, and frequently from nautilus too
[03:53] <rob1> hmm looks like my horay cd crapped out during install
[03:53] <Madpilot> mdke: yeah, that's what I was getting at
[03:53] <LaserJock> rob1: on gentoo I used openbox + gnome-panel a lot but that would probably be overkill for you.
[03:53] <mdke> Madpilot, looks like lots of people think that way too
[03:54] <rob1> yeah the PC is an amd 500mhz with 130mb ram
[03:54] <Madpilot> I do think that the Accessories/System Tools/Preferences/Administration stuff needs to be cleaned up -
[03:54] <LaserJock> hmm, I hardly every you nautilus. I might have to look at it more
[03:54] <LaserJock> s/you/use
[03:54] <Madpilot> LaserJock: you don't use the file manager?
[03:54] <LaserJock> Madpilot: no, CLI
[03:54] <mdke> -> bed
[03:54] <rob1> Madpilot, use the cli most of the time too
[03:54] <LaserJock> Madpilot: I haven't gotten the hang of a filemanager
[03:54] <rob1> night mdke
[03:55] <rob1> its just easier
[03:55] <LaserJock> good night mdke
[03:55] <LaserJock> The only time I use nautilus is when I need to transfer somthing to my usb stick.
[03:55] <Madpilot> the only time I use the CLI for file management is when I have to use sudo - typing "sudo mv <whatever>" is easier than relaunching Naut w/ visudo nautilus
[03:56] <rob1> nah, copying stuff for instance is much eaiser using cli
[03:56] <LaserJock> hmm, amazing how diverse users are. That is why taking out a lot the menu might be a bad idea
[03:56] <rob1> try using ratpoison for a while, the mouse is useless :)
[03:56] <mdke> i use the file manager for copying files over ssh
[03:57] <mdke> i find it a lot easier
[03:57] <Madpilot> rob1: I'd last about two hours w/o a mouse, I think :)
[03:57] <rob1> I still use cli ssh
[03:57] <LaserJock> rob1: me too
[03:57] <mdke> rob1, you gotta try nautilus, it is pretty good
[03:57] <LaserJock> I ssh to my Ubuntu box from Windows a lot so everything is CLI
[03:58] <mdke> there are gui windows scp clients
[03:58] <rob1> mdke, I did once and gave up in frustration
[03:58] <rob1> if gnome had something like kioslaves I'd probably use gui tools more
[03:59] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah, but it is faster for me to CLI cause I am doing other stuff at the same time
[04:00] <rob1> bbl
[08:30] <rob1> oooh a beta of the debian installer is out
[11:20] <pawan> hi
[11:21] <pawan> how do i extract file names for translated po files so that mo files
[11:47] <rob1> blah mdke is sleeping..
[11:47] <rob1> don't you hate when you have what seems like a good idea and no one around to tell it to :P
[11:55] <pawan> why should i ...
[12:13] <mdke> just got up
[12:14] <mdke> rob1, that is a rocking idea
[12:14] <mdke> pawan, i don't understand your question. also, it seems a bit off-topic for #ubuntu-doc
[04:36] <jsgotangco> hello
[04:39] <Belutz> jsgotangco, hai!
[04:39] <Belutz> jsgotangco, i've been looking for you
[04:40] <highvoltage> hi everyone.
[04:40] <Belutz> jsgotangco, have you read your email?
[04:40] <jsgotangco> Belutz: yeah
[04:40] <jsgotangco> Belutz: RMS wow
[04:40] <Belutz> yup RMS
[04:41] <Belutz> thank God it's not RPM :p
[04:41] <jsgotangco> how many times did RMS already go there?
[04:41] <jsgotangco> the guy just loves indonesia i notice
[04:41] <Belutz> three times i guess
[04:41] <jsgotangco> Belutz: dec. 1-2 i will be in seoul
[04:42] <Belutz> ic :-(
[04:42] <jsgotangco> if i can arrage it i can fly the next day
[04:42] <Belutz> ok, i already send an email to the event commitee, asking if they could add a slot to the event for ubuntu presentation
[04:43] <Belutz> if they could provide it, i'll let you know asap
[04:43] <jsgotangco> if you can confirm it, i will tell jane about it as well
[04:43] <Belutz> ok
[04:43] <jsgotangco> since i'm already confirmed in seoul, it'll be hairy
[04:43] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:43] <Belutz> *hooraayy i'm going to meet jsgotangco ^_^ *
[04:44] <jsgotangco> saturday eh?
[04:44] <Belutz> friday
[04:44] <jsgotangco> eh?
[04:44] <jsgotangco> 3 is a saturday
[04:44] <Belutz> oops
[04:44] <Belutz> yes saturday
[04:44] <jsgotangco> what time would it be?
[04:44] <Belutz> i was looking at nov 2006 :-(
[04:45] <Belutz> 8.30 - 16.30 indonesian time (GMT +7)
[04:45] <jsgotangco> yikes
[04:46] <Belutz> yikes? :p
[04:46] <jsgotangco> well i couild probably leave seoul on the night of the 2nd
[04:46] <Belutz> if they could provide a slot, i will ask them to be at almost the end of the seminar
[04:46] <jsgotangco> Belutz: i can't promise though...i still have to talk to the travel agent...
[04:46] <mdke> hey jerome
[04:47] <jsgotangco> hey mdke
[04:47] <Belutz> jsgotangco, yes i know, and i can't promise that they could provide a slot also
[04:47] <jsgotangco> jdub's bbt is tiring, but going to speak in seoul then to jakarta a day after the other can be killer
[04:48] <jsgotangco> Belutz: although the site you mentioned had ubuntu
[04:48] <Belutz> jsgotangco, yup
[04:48] <jsgotangco> mdke: how's saturday?
[04:49] <Belutz> one of the seminar topic is demonstration of linux distro based on debian
[04:49] <Belutz> but i think they will demonstrate knoppix
[04:49] <mdke> jsgotangco, saturday is ok. I've been trying (and failing) to get ipodlinux on my ipod
[04:49] <Belutz> because knoppix is quiet popular in here
[04:50] <jsgotangco> Belutz: how is the state of l10n there?
[04:50] <Belutz> l10n for ubuntu?
[04:50] <jsgotangco> debian in general
[04:50] <Belutz> for gnome it's already 93%
[04:50] <jsgotangco> wow
[04:50] <Belutz> i don't know about debian :(
[04:51] <jsgotangco> sometimes its better to do core stuff for l10n on debian upstream because it automatically goes to every derivative
[04:51] <jsgotangco> even ubuntu
[04:51] <Belutz> i see
[04:52] <jsgotangco> Belutz: let's just wait and see what pans out, if you can confirm, we'll worry then :)
[04:52] <Belutz> jsgotangco, ok :-)
[04:53] <Belutz> :-)
[04:53] <jsgotangco> Belutz: i checked the website, i did understand my words though, it seems only RMS is keynote?
[04:54] <Belutz> the other is hmm what do you called it in english... hmm the head of magazine?
[04:54] <jsgotangco> editor in chief?
[04:56] <Belutz> yup editor in chief of Info Linux magazine
[04:56] <Belutz> and also a lecturer from Indonesia University
[04:56] <jsgotangco> Belutz: i could have asked mako, but remember he also has conflicts and can't go to seoul too...
[04:56] <jsgotangco> we were supposed to go together in seoul...
[04:56] <Belutz> i see
[04:57] <jsgotangco> originally it should have been jdub going to seoul but he's already booked in OSDC
[04:57] <jsgotangco> asia needs a lot of loving
[04:58] <Belutz> true :-)
[05:00] <jsgotangco> who is  Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim
[05:00] <Belutz> he is a lecturer from Indonesia Univertisity
[05:01] <Belutz> i think RMS is not coming, it will be just a teleconference
[05:01] <jsgotangco> oohhhh
[05:02] <jsgotangco> hmm
[05:02] <Belutz> what diamond?
[05:03] <Belutz> can i sell it? lol :-)
[05:03] <jsgotangco> haha
[05:03] <jsgotangco> Belutz: who's Tina
[05:03] <jsgotangco> hehe
[05:03] <Belutz> ah
[05:03] <Belutz> Tina, i knew her from blogwalking
[05:03] <Belutz> she's an Indonesian who lives in germany for now
[05:03] <jsgotangco> hmm she's in germany
[05:04] <Belutz> with her family
[05:04] <highvoltage> :)
[05:04] <Belutz> in ulm
[05:05] <jsgotangco> she's pretty
[05:05] <Belutz> she is :-)
[05:06] <jsgotangco> we get a lot of tv ads here mostly shampoo ads from indonesia, but translated to english
[05:06] <jsgotangco> its either from indonesia or thailand
[05:06] <Belutz> can a non english blog goes into planet.u.c? :p
[05:06] <mdke> no
[05:06] <mdke> but you can post english posts
[05:06] <jsgotangco> why not?
[05:06] <mdke> and tag them
[05:07] <Belutz> there are some shampoo ads in here is also translated in Indonesia, from thailand maybe
[05:07] <jsgotangco> ok so the ladies in thailand are prettier lol
[05:08] <Belutz> not really *grin*
[05:09] <jsgotangco> Belutz: do you know the organizers of the event?
[05:09] <Belutz> jsgotangco, no i'm not :-(
[05:09] <jsgotangco> i doubt it if you can convince them for a slot
[05:10] <Belutz> well, it's worth to try
[05:10] <jsgotangco> sure
[05:10] <Belutz> :-)
[05:11] <jsgotangco> ok so "Tina" mentioned Ubuntu that's a good sign
[05:11] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: how far is thailand from where you are? (sorry, my geography sux)
[05:12] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: probably around 4 hours by plance
[05:12] <jsgotangco> s/plance/plane
[05:12] <jsgotangco> hong kong is just 2 hours by plane
[05:12] <Belutz> jsgotangco, i think her husband is using SUSE in her house, and she and her husband also mentioned that they download ubuntu
[05:12] <highvoltage> ok, that's still quite far.
[05:13] <highvoltage> janew said the next ubz/ubz-like meeting might be in thailand.
[05:13] <highvoltage> i'm definately saving up for that one.
[05:13] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: WHOAAAAAA
[05:13] <Belutz> in thailand?
[05:13] <Belutz> hmmm
[05:14] <Belutz> can a non-developer come? :p
[05:14] <highvoltage> Belutz: i think so.
[05:14] <jsgotangco> Belutz: sure
[05:14] <highvoltage> Belutz: but you're a member, so you must be doing something already!
[05:14] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:14] <Belutz> hmmm
[05:14] <jsgotangco> shout to the world you're a contributor
[05:15] <Belutz> just translations is not enough then...
[05:15] <jsgotangco> Belutz: that's what you think
[05:15] <mdke> anyone can go to the developer conference afaik
[05:15] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:16] <Belutz> i hope i had some money to go there by then
[05:16] <jsgotangco> the devel conference isn't mostly about hacking stuff
[05:16] <jsgotangco> half of the time, community stuff are planned as well
[05:16] <Belutz> i see
[05:17] <Belutz> hmm my friend already received his 5.10 cd's from shipit
[05:17] <jsgotangco> but anyone is welcome to contribute to a spec/BoF
[05:17] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: marlize handles cd shipments?
[05:17] <highvoltage> mdke: do you think you'll be coming too if it's in thailand?
[05:17] <mdke> highvoltage, no, very unlikely
[05:17] <mdke> i won't get the time off work
[05:18] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: i know she handles it in .za, but i think she's taken on more responsibility recently, not sure.
[05:18] <highvoltage> mdke: what kind of work are you doing now? lawyer work?
[05:18] <mdke> yeah
[05:18] <jsgotangco> did you handle murder cases already?
[05:18] <mdke> heh
[05:18] <mdke> i don't do that sort of law
[05:18] <jsgotangco> its its mostly corproate law, i'm not buying
[05:19] <mdke> heh
[05:19] <jsgotangco> does uk have tort law too?
[05:19] <mdke> i'm with a group that does commercial law
[05:19] <mdke> yes :)
[05:19] <highvoltage> that's very strange. mdke is a lawyer, and yet i don't hate him.
[05:19] <mdke> tort law is english in origin
[05:19] <mdke> highvoltage, :)(
[05:19] <mdke> whoops
[05:19] <jsgotangco> mdke: so tort  law is worse there?
[05:19] <mdke> :)
[05:19] <mdke> jsgotangco, worse?
[05:19] <jsgotangco> i mean compared to tort cases in the us
[05:20] <mdke> it's difficult to describe a whole category of law as better or worse
[05:20] <mdke> the system is fairly good
[05:20] <jsgotangco> like say you sue McD for giving you high levels of cholesterol
[05:20] <mdke> oh i see
[05:20] <mdke> there is less of a litigation culture in the UK than in the US, thank god
[05:20] <jsgotangco> or that you got allergies after eating frog pie
[05:20] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:20] <mdke> people still sue each other too much, but it's not as bad
[05:21] <jsgotangco> you should handle immigration cases, it'll make you rich for sure
[05:21] <jsgotangco> hehe
[05:22] <mdke> don't worry, commercial law is quite lucrative
[05:22] <jsgotangco> is there something like antitrust law in the uk?
[05:22] <mdke> yes
[05:22] <mdke> we call it "competition law"
[05:22] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:22] <mdke> it's mainly european based
[05:23] <mdke> yeah that is quite an interesting subject
[05:23] <jsgotangco> its just like the
[05:24] <mdke> the EU only legislates in certain specific areas
[05:24] <jsgotangco> hey i finally got to use  in a useful way
[05:24] <jsgotangco> hehe
[05:24] <jsgotangco> anway's what's  for?
[05:25] <mdke> i don't see that symbol in irssi
[05:25] <jsgotangco> interesting
[05:25] <jsgotangco> i dunno if we have the same keymap but its with ` and | beside the space bar
[05:26] <jsgotangco> | can only be used with alt gr
[05:26] <mdke> guess not ;)
[05:26] <mdke>  ?
[05:26] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:26] <mdke> no idea
[05:26] <jsgotangco> what's that
[05:26] <Belutz> jsgotangco, http://www.debian.org/international/l10n/po/id
[05:26] <jsgotangco> the weird looking line
[05:27] <mdke> highvoltage, so you've had some bad experiences with lawyers eh?
[05:27] <jsgotangco> mdke: how come uk keyboards have it? heh
[05:27] <mdke> i dunno what it is
[05:27] <jsgotangco> Belutz: that's a lot of green stuff which is good...
[05:28] <Belutz> jsgotangco, yes i think so, Mohammad DAMT is really good at it
[05:28] <jsgotangco> Belutz: the only major component we got to translate at the moment to Tagalog is Debian-Installer
[05:28] <jsgotangco> Belutz: id's efforts are better compraed to tl
[05:29] <Belutz> really?
[05:29] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:30] <jsgotangco> Belutz: its because majority of our population grew up learning english in schools so there's very little need for them to use a localized system
[05:30] <Belutz> so in here
[05:30] <jsgotangco> Belutz: basically our language didn't evolve compared to the other languages
[05:30] <highvoltage> mdke: nah, perhaps i just watched the practice too much :P
[05:30] <Belutz> the computer stuffs, if translated to indonesian seems weird
[05:31] <mdke> highvoltage, what is that?
[05:31] <highvoltage> mdke: a TV series about lawyers. i just assumed that you have probably seen it.
[05:31] <Belutz> i like old tv series, LA Law :p
[05:31] <mdke> nope i haven't seen many american ones
[05:32] <mdke> is it american?
[05:32] <Belutz> the practice is american
[05:32] <highvoltage> yes, it's american.
[05:32] <Belutz> it has sharon stone :p
[05:32] <mdke> mmm football is on tv
[05:32] <jsgotangco> soccer
[05:32] <jsgotangco> hehehe
[05:32] <mdke> england against argentina
[05:33] <jsgotangco> mdke: have you got to watch NFL
[05:33] <mdke> no, i wish
[05:33] <mdke> i like american football too
[05:33] <jsgotangco> what i don't understand is rugby and australian football
[05:34] <jsgotangco> add cricket as well
[05:34] <mdke> cricket is the greatest sport in the world ever
[05:35] <jsgotangco> mdke: if you can explain cricket to me in a simple manner, i'd be willing to play that cricket game for my ps2 that got stuck for years
[05:35] <mdke> it's kinda like baseball
[05:35] <jsgotangco> all i know is that one or two guys are aiming at sticks
[05:35] <mdke> one team "bats"
[05:35] <mdke> two of the players bat at a time
[05:35] <mdke> (instead of one in baseball)
[05:36] <jsgotangco> i notice the batters face each other
[05:36] <jsgotangco> which i find it rather odd
[05:36] <mdke> basically one person bats, and the other watches
[05:37] <mdke> then if they score a point, by running up and down the pitch, they swap ends
[05:37] <jsgotangco> why?
[05:37] <Belutz> http://kuduisolinux.blogspot.com/ <--- kubuntu blog by an Indonesian blogger
[05:37] <jsgotangco> wait a minute
[05:37] <Belutz> in english :-)
[05:37] <jsgotangco> if the guy who bats hit it
[05:37] <jsgotangco> they swap bsae?
[05:37] <mdke> if they have enough time before the other team returns the ball, yeah
[05:37] <mdke> highvoltage, help me out here...
[05:37] <highvoltage> i understand rugby, but not the american stuff :)
[05:38] <mdke> this is cricket
[05:38] <jsgotangco> mdke: strange if you ask me
[05:38] <highvoltage> ah, cricket
[05:38] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: cricket is totally different than baseball. cricket is a gentleman's game :)
[05:38] <jsgotangco> what's the "cricket" side then? just swapping bases even if its just in front of eaach other
[05:39] <mdke> heh
[05:39] <highvoltage> they make runs.
[05:39] <highvoltage> it's not really just swapping :)
[05:39] <jsgotangco> how long is the pitch?
[05:39] <mdke> 22 yards
[05:39] <jsgotangco> that's not too far
[05:40] <jsgotangco> then why do they have sticks stuck on the ground?
[05:40] <mdke> those are like the targets for the other team, the batting team has to protect them
[05:40] <jsgotangco> and they don't look like bats to me hehee more like paddles
[05:40] <mdke> in baseball terms, that is like the plate
[05:41] <mdke> and if the balls hits those sticks (stumps) then he is out
[05:41] <jsgotangco> you only get 1 chance?
[05:41] <mdke> yep
[05:41] <jsgotangco> Belutz: there's no cricket in indonesia right?
[05:41] <Belutz> jsgotangco, nope
[05:42] <jsgotangco> Belutz: good
[05:42] <Belutz> hahaha
[05:42] <jsgotangco> mdke: i still find it rather boring as a sport
[05:42] <mdke> heh
[05:42] <mdke> you need to get to know it better
[05:43] <mdke> my girlfriend hates it with a passion tho
[05:43] <jsgotangco> compared to say hoops or american football
[05:43] <jsgotangco> because your girlfriend is italian and prefers footsie?
[05:44] <Belutz> am i the one who still single in here?
[05:44] <mdke> she's not big on sport, but I think she hates cricket on principle because I like it :)
[05:45] <jsgotangco> Belutz: define "single"...not married or no partner
[05:45] <Belutz> not married and no partner
[05:46] <jsgotangco> Belutz: then stop hanging out in irc then heh
[05:46] <Belutz> hahaha
[05:46] <Belutz> is there any geek girls in here? *look around the channel*
[05:47] <jsgotangco> Belutz: geek girls are no different from non-geek girls when it comes to romance/love
[05:47] <mdke> no?
[05:48] <Belutz> i see, but geek girls if they are mad at me, they will go to her computer, non-geek girls will run to other man :p
[05:48] <mdke> Belutz, good thinking
[05:48] <highvoltage> Belutz: so when your geek girl runs to her computer, you can make up again over irc?
[05:49] <Belutz> then we could solve the problem with doing a Counter Strike battle.... lol
[05:49] <jsgotangco> doh
[05:49] <Belutz> highvoltage, no, it was just an excuse :p
[05:49] <highvoltage> :)
[05:50] <jsgotangco> i know a lot of local geek girls that are really pretty but they're really non-geek outside work
[05:50] <jsgotangco> last friday we went to a ktv bar
[05:50] <mdke> lol
[05:50] <mdke> i love the idea of making up over irc
[05:50] <jsgotangco> 3 of them were geek girls and just singing their hearts out with celine dion songs
[05:51] <Belutz> at least i want to meet indonesian girl who understand linux :p
[05:51] <jsgotangco> which wasn't a pretty sight
[05:51] <Belutz> so if we get married, i don't have to install windows
[05:52] <Belutz> lol
[05:52] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: in .za, ktv is a childrens station, with heavy ktv branding on all their stuff. they do things like release "ktv britney spears" cd's. a "ktv" bar sounds like a kiddies bar :)
[05:53] <jsgotangco> what do they call it then for older folks?
[05:53] <highvoltage> just bars, i guess.
[05:54] <jsgotangco> heh the ktv bars here, are really nice
[05:54] <jsgotangco> the bigger rooms even have mirror balls
[05:57] <jsgotangco> wow xbox 360 is coming out in 2 weeks
[06:05] <highvoltage> big deal.
[06:05] <highvoltage> :P
[06:07] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: i work for a game company its a big deal
[06:07] <jsgotangco> (for me)
[06:08] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:08] <mdke> how is the new job jsgotangco ?
[06:08] <highvoltage> aaaah
[06:08] <jsgotangco> mdke: pretty good, got to meet some monster java devels at work
[06:08] <mdke> jolly good
[06:08] <mdke> nice people?
[06:08] <jsgotangco> mdke: at the moment, the system is still adjusting to me
[06:08] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:09] <mdke> fair enough
[06:10] <jsgotangco> yeah
[06:10] <jsgotangco> but i feel so old
[06:10] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:10] <mdke> nah
[06:10] <jsgotangco> its like more than half of them didn't experience using a 5" floppy
[06:10] <jsgotangco> and even have no idea of os/2
[06:11] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:39] <jsgotangco> night
[06:49] <highvoltage> nighto jsgotangco
[07:58] <mdke__> mamma mia
[08:02] <Madpilot> ?
[08:02] <mdke> network issues
[08:02] <Madpilot> ah
[08:23] <corey_> well, dapper has hit slashdot
[08:24] <corey_> Ubuntu...  How to make Novell and RedHat _crap_ their pants in four easy releases...
[08:24] <corey_> The biggest problem for Ubuntu is...
[08:24] <corey_>  They are squandering all these excellent release names too quickly.
[08:24] <corey_> Look at the years of wear that Microsoft got from Chicago, Cairo, Longhorn and now, Vista! That, my friends, is real marketing.
[08:24] <corey_> Slow down, you crazy Ubuntu cowboys!
[08:25] <highvoltage> yeeha!
[08:25] <corey_> random slashdot comments are pretty funny
[08:27] <corey_> I can
[08:27] <corey_> t wait until all those /.ers see our new installer
[08:27] <corey_> how to kill all of their "Ubuntu installer is ugly" in one fell swoop
[08:27] <Kyral> New installer say what?
[08:27] <Kyral> granted I think NCurses is sexy :P
[08:27] <corey_> Kyral, Ubuntu-express, the live cd based installer
[08:28] <Kyral> Very nice this will make world domination easy
[08:28] <Kyral> err
[08:28] <Kyral> Wow I'm in an odd mood
[08:29] <corey_> we are already on the path to world domination
[08:29] <Kyral> lol
[08:29] <corey_> this will just make is more smooth when we ask them to bend over
[08:29] <Kyral> lol
[08:29] <Kyral> But yah, one CD for everything will make things easy
[08:33] <Kyral> Remind me to disable compositing before running Cedega
[08:34] <Burglaptop> ah
[08:35] <Kyral> I forgot that Compositing eats OpenGL
[08:37] <Madpilot> Burglaptop: are you channelling Bill Gates this morning or something? "this will just make is more smooth when we ask them to bend over" indeed...
[08:37] <Burglaptop> hey
[08:38] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: hey to you too. I took the day off again - damned cold is nearly gone, but not quite
[11:38] <rob1> mdke, ping
[11:38] <mdke> pong
[11:38] <rob1> hi
[11:38] <mdke> lo
[11:38] <rob1> got my email I take it
[11:38] <mdke> the one about feedback?
[11:39] <mdke> i replied...
[11:39] <rob1> yeah
[11:39] <rob1> what do you mean by wiki page? an annoucement?
[11:39] <mdke> just ideas about how we'd go about it
[11:39] <rob1> ah
[11:39] <mdke> i've been talking to henrik a bit about this sort of thing
[11:39] <mdke> he's got some ideas too
[11:40] <rob1> what did he say?
[11:40] <rob1> nice
[11:40] <mdke> well we are talking about hosting for the docs and the wiki
[11:40] <mdke> in the context of the better wiki docs thing
[11:40] <mdke> but he was talking a lot about feedback on our WIP and stable docs
[11:41] <rob1> the problem with stable docs is that we can't change them
[11:41] <mdke> i thought a nice idea would be to have a link at the top of each page which allows users to post to the ML via a web comment system
[11:41] <mdke> yeah but that doesn't stop users giving feedback
[11:41] <rob1> like our own bugzilla setup?
[11:42] <mdke> not really no
[11:43] <mdke> just perhaps a link in the header bar of every page/wiki theme which points at a page which gives the possibility for users to mail us, or to malone, or other ways of giving feedback
[11:43] <rob1> well I would like to get the community more involved in the review stage too
[11:43] <mdke> me too
[11:43] <rob1> all of the bugs in the faq guide would have been picked up before released if we did for breezy
[11:43] <mdke> what I suggested would apply equally to the preview documents
[11:44] <mdke> rob1, hopefully that will happen a lot if we get the doc into dapper quick
[11:44] <rob1> well none are ready yet, but yes the sooner the better
[11:44] <mdke> sure, not now, but soon


[12:03] <jbailey> It needs to be loaded in the initrd on IDE root systems, though.
[12:03] <jbailey> I had to add ide-generic to get my laptop to boot, anyway.
[12:03] <mdz> oh, you aren't using hotplug in your initrds?
[12:04] <jbailey> No, the plan had been to have hotplug in userspace give me a list of the drivers, and then I loaded all of those manually.
[12:04] <jbailey> That way hotplug at bootup got the coldplugging events.
[12:04] <mdz> hmm
[12:04] <jbailey> Or rather at sysvinit time.
[12:04] <mdz> proper hotplug in the initrd has many benefits
[12:04] <jbailey> (I tend to think of boot up being after I've chained to the proper init)
[12:05] <mdz> like not having to mangle the initrd if your root device moves
[12:05] <jbailey> Yup.  The downside is that it means all the boot drivers and stuff need to be in the initrd.
[12:05] <jbailey> Doable, though.
[12:05] <jbailey> That would actually make my task so far way easier.
[12:05] <mdz> storage drivers and network drivers should be there
[12:05] <mdz> (network to support NFS-root)
[12:05] <jbailey> and usb keyboard.
[12:05] <mdz> yeah
[12:05] <mdz> that would address another class of bugs too
[12:05] <jbailey> Yup
[12:06] <mdz> it'd do two coldplugging rounds, one with the initrd modules only, and a second one with all modules
[12:06] <jbailey> Cool.  Id' been chatting with dilinger about various ways to convince hotplug to give me a list of the devices that it would need for any given kernel version.  This saves that hassle at the cost of a larger initramfs.
[12:07] <mdz> this is what I thought you were talking about earlier
[12:07] <mdz> when you said you were doing it so as to replace initrd-tools
[12:07] <jbailey> mdz: Nope.  I wanted to keep the initramfs small so do it at generate time.
[12:08] <jbailey> Doing it at boot time is a simpler version of it.
[12:08] <mdz> so either way, using the hotplug infrastructure rather than mkinitrd's hacks
[12:08] <jbailey> Yes. =)
[12:08] <mdz> but we were thinking of two different approaches
[12:08] <mdz> we're already using hotplug in d-i
[12:08] <mdz> so we've got its dependencies down to a manageable level
[12:09] <jbailey> Yeah, saw that on the hoary goals.
[12:09] <mdz> it basically works with busybox-cvs + module-init-tools, I think
[12:09] <jbailey> *sigh* hotplug doesn't apply all of its patches cleanly on a fresh apt-get source.
[12:09] <mdz> oh?
[12:10] <jbailey> I've been using the tools that come with klibc, but I've seen that other people have gotten hotplug running with klibc.
[12:10] <mdz> unstable or hoary?
[12:10] <jbailey> hoary
[12:10] <mdz> they all apply for me in hoary
[12:10] <jbailey> ppc box.  The only non-ubuntu thing on here is dvdcss and the debian ppc kernel (Hoary's doesn't boot on the pegasos box.  The grub2 update on Monday should fix)
[12:10] <jbailey> Applying patch debian/patches/./blacklist2-eepro100 failed!
[12:11] <mdz> how weird
[12:11] <mdz> it's possible that it's never been built on powerpc before
[12:11] <mdz> but I see no reason why that should matter
[12:11] <mdz> Applying patch debian/patches/./blacklist2-eepro100 successful.
[12:12] <jbailey> Nothing in the hotplug Makefile or the spec file about klibc, but hopefully it's not too much elbow grease to beat it into shape.
[12:13] <mdz> hotplug doesn't have any binaries
[12:13] <mdz> it's all scripts
[12:13] <jbailey> Oh, is it all shell?
[12:13] <mjt> btw, as of 2.6.10, there's no /sys/bus/pci/devices/xx/driver symlink - helps with coldplug
[12:13] <jbailey> Nice. =)
[12:13] <mjt> s/no //
[12:13] <mdz> the only C bit is grepmap, which is 1) in a separate package, 2) extremely simple (should be fine with klibc), and 3) optional :-)
[12:14] <mdz> it really helps performance, though, so I recommend bringing it into the initrd
[12:14] <mjt> when you have only few modules in initramfs, performance does not matter
[12:14] <mjt> (or initrd, whatever)
[12:15] <mjt> and, using modules.alias instead of modules.*map for most things speed things up further
[12:15] <mdz> I'm not sure how few we'll end up with
[12:16] <mdz> hotplug doesn't seem to have any support for modules.alias whatsoever
[12:16] <mjt> mdz: i think we talked with you about this very stuff a while back, no? ;)
[12:16] <mdz> yes
[12:17] <mjt> modules.alias works for pci - the most important thing. inputmap (where modules.alias does not work) is small
[12:17] <mdz> but you're arguing a nonexistent solution against an existent one, and the existent one always wins :-)
[12:17] <mjt> non-existing?
[12:17] <mdz> hotplug does not use modules.alias
[12:17] <mdz> it uses modules.*map only
[12:18] <mdz> the version we're using, anyway
[12:18] <mjt> while read alias module; do case $deviceid in $alias) echo $module;; done < modules.alias -- that's all that is needed
[12:18] <mjt> dash rocks, btw
[12:19] <mjt> or, rather, while read junk alias module; do ...
[12:19] <mdz> that, getting deviceid into the right format, and testing it for a few thousand user=months, yeah, that's all :-P
[12:19] <mdz> s/=/-/
[12:19] <mjt> eh?
[12:20] <mjt> printf "pci:v%08Xd%08Xsv%08Xsd%08Xbc%02Xsc%02Xi%02X" $vendor $device $s_vendor $s_device $baseclass $subclass $if
[12:20] <mjt> that's the $deviceid
[12:21] <mdz> for PCI devices
[12:21] <mjt> vendor etc are from /sys/bus/pci/device/xx/vendor etc directly
[12:21] <mjt> yes
[12:21] <mjt> the main case
[12:21] <mdz> I see no incentive whatsoever for us to switch to using modules.alias, honestly
[12:21] <mjt> usb is even simpler
[12:21] <mjt> that switch makes grepmap even more optional
[12:22] <mdz> I'm not entirely convinced of that
[12:22] <mdz> just doing a while/read loop over the pcimap took longer than running grepmap
[12:22] <mjt> note modprobe handles wildcards for you, so that while.. loop is not needed
[12:22] <jbailey> mdz: At 200k uncompressed, I don't want to use more than I have to. =)
[12:22] <mjt> but that loop is fast - much faster than current cruft in pci.agent etc
[12:23] <mdz> jbailey: I don't see much choice about adding busybox to that, if we're going to use hotplug
[12:23] <mdz> that's ~128k
[12:23] <mjt> btw, module stuff in busybox is sorta broken
[12:24] <mdz> yes, that's why we don't use it
[12:24] <mdz> not even in the installer or initrd
[12:24] <mjt> and busybox is a very good thing to have in an initrd
[12:24] <mjt> helps alot if something goes wrong
[12:25] <jbailey> mdz: There are reports on the hoplug list that maked it look like udev, hotplug, klibc, and modprobe should be enough.
[12:25] <mdz> we need busybox for a shell toolbox, not for module utilities
[12:25] <mjt> (saved my ass several times with broken root raid stuff ;)
[12:25] <mdz> jbailey: the hotplug scripts use cut, all sorts of stuff that's not built into dash
[12:26] <mdz> some of them even use awk, but those are not needed in initrd
[12:26] <mdz> grep
[12:26] <mjt> cut - where? in tape.agent?
[12:27] <mjt> grep - in net.agent?
[12:27] <mdz> grep is used _everywhere_
[12:27] <jbailey> Yeah.  The utilities in klibc doesn't have grep or cut.
[12:27] <mdz> sed is used _everywhere_
[12:27] <jbailey> cat false insmod ln mkfifo nuke run-init true uname chroot fstype ipconfig minips mount pivot_root sh udev dd gzip kinit mkdir nfsmount printf sleep umount
[12:27] <mjt> in hotplug.functions, really
[12:28] <mdz> mjt: in functions in hotplug.functions which are called from _everywhere_
[12:28] <mjt> yeah
[12:28] <jbailey> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=6319817&forum_id=3157 is the email that I'm looking at.
[12:29] <mdz> busybox gives you everything needed to run hotplug at a small cost
[12:29] <mdz> though if you're doing initramfs rather than initrd, that would make busybox a build-dep of the kernel, no?
[12:29] <mjt> grep $MODULE /proc/modules - ugh, isn't it simpler to use [ -d /sys/module/$MODULE ]  ?  Or just let modprobe to do its work? ;)
[12:29] <mdz> the former is portable across 2.4 and 2.6
[12:30] <mdz> hell, 2.2
[12:30] <mjt> is 2.4 supported in ubuntu?
[12:30] <jbailey> mdz: No.  initramfs can be generated anytime after.  You can just make a cpio image and hand it to the kernel the same way you hand it an initrd.
[12:30] <mdz> no
[12:30] <mdz> but it's supported by hotplug
[12:30] <mdz> hotplug is not specific to ubuntu :-)
[12:31] <jbailey> mdz: If we *did* make it a dependancy of the kernel, we could just ship an already configured initrd.  Apparently (I haven't tested) you can hand in multiple cpio files and it'll unpack them all.
[12:31] <mjt> initramfs works the same way as any other sort of initrd. except of the way you do final pivot_root/whatever stuff - for initramfs, there's special utility in klibc for that.
[12:31] <mdz> a preconfigured initrd would be pretty fly
[12:31] <jbailey> mdz: So that way the only bit to be done is just light config files (mostly for sane net booting), but those can also be handed in on the command line.
[12:31] <sladen> jbailey: is cpio like tar;  you can just concatrenate stuff?
[12:32] <mdz> jbailey: there's so much potential for weird bugs generating the initrd on the fly
[12:32] <mjt> neither tar nor cpio can be concatenated ;)
[12:32] <jbailey> sladen: Eh?
[12:32] <mdz> you can concatenate new files to a tar
[12:32] <mdz> s/concatenate/append/
[12:32] <sladen> mjt: okay, remove the 2kB of zeros from the end :)
[12:32] <jbailey> New files, yes.  Not multple tars.
[12:32] <mjt> after removing the trailer, yes
[12:33] <jbailey> Yeah.
[12:33] <mjt> both tar and cpio have a trailer record
[12:33] <jbailey> mdz: Ayup
[12:33] <mjt> btw, generating initramfs (the cpio part) is umm.. not easy
[12:33] <jbailey> mdz: So...  I'll need to do a version of busybox that's built with klibc.
[12:33] <jbailey> mjt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey =)
[12:33] <mdz> jbailey: we would need to build-dep on non-kernel stuff anyway, I guess; klibc seems to lack a shell ;-)
[12:33] <jbailey> mdz: klibc has ash.
[12:34] <mjt> i've written something in shell to do that (cpio) -- pretty fun stuff
[12:34] <mdz> oh?
[12:34] <mdz> in how many places do we need to duplicate this stuff? :-)
[12:34] <jbailey> BTW, you really want a newer version of the mkinitramfs than is there.  I found a bug a minute or so ago. =)
[12:34] <jbailey> mdz: As few as possible, ideally. =)  But we don't live in an ideal worls.
[12:34] <mjt> jbailey: can yours be used as non-root?
[12:34] <mdz> we already fork loads of stuff into busybox
[12:35] <mjt> btw, why klibc?
[12:35] <jbailey> mjt: Yes.  (cd ${TMPDIR} && find . | cpio --quiet --dereference -o -H newc | gzip -9 >${outfile})
[12:35] <mjt> there's nothing that stops using other stuff (dietlibc, uclibc, even glibc but it's large) in initramfs
[12:36] <jbailey> mjt: The difference is that klibc is eventually being targetted to be integrated in with the kernel build anyway.
[12:36] <jbailey> mjt: udev is already prewired for udev, as is the replacement for pivot_root
[12:37] <mdz> what does the pivot_root replacement do differently?
[12:37] <mjt> jbailey: hmm. that cpio example - 2 probs. first of all, it packs ./ instead of / - last time i checked kernel chocked on that (that's why i wrote "my own cpio" in shell - pretty easy really); and 2), that way requires mknod, which is root-only
[12:38] <jbailey> mdz: It cd's into the mounted root directory, deletes everything on the parent filesystem, overmounts the mounted directory as /, unmounts the previous one.
[12:38] <jbailey> mdz: So it's all done in userspace, no in kernel magic.
[12:38] <mjt> mdz: take a look at kinit in klibc
[12:38] <jbailey> mjt: It's working fine on two systems here with the ./, and there are no devices in there.
[12:38] <mdz> jbailey: hmm, I hope that doesn't mean pivot_root(2) is going away
[12:38] <jbailey> mjt: The kernel provides /dev/console automatiically.  Everything else is done with udev.
[12:39] <jbailey> mdz: I beleive that it does.
[12:39] <mjt> pivot_root isn't needed with initramfs
[12:39] <mdz> what about kernel threads?
[12:39] <mdz> they find their way to the new root ok?
[12:39] <jbailey> mdz: I'm using run-init.  kinit isn't quite useful yet.
[12:40] <mjt> er.. how it's not useful?
[12:40] <mjt> oh /me bad
[12:41] <mdz> kinit in klibc 0.198 seems to use pivot_root
[12:41] <mjt> i really meant run-init, not kinit ;)
[12:41] <mdz> oh, run-init is the example
[12:41] <jbailey> mjt: It's a conglomerate tool that basically just combined run-init and nfsmount.  It doesn't have anything in the way of extra magic.  I think I had another concern about it, but it's not coming to mind.
[12:41] <mjt> utils/run-init.c
[12:41] <mjt> yeah - sorry for the noise
[12:41] <mdz> I would not have expected mount(".", "/", NULL, MS_MOVE, NULL) to work :-)
[12:42] <jbailey> mjt: No, all good. =)  I'm still learning the new initramfs stuff.  I went to a workshop at OLS on it and come out with more questions than I went it with.
[12:42] <mdz> but I can certainly adapt casper to that when pivot_root goes away, assuming kernel threads dtrt
[12:42] <mjt> what's wrong with kernel threads and that initramfs/run-init stuff?
[12:42] <jbailey> Oh!  Something that occured to me.  If we build the initramfs right into the kernel, would could probably still do thge DSDT update by handing it in using the initrd= method.
[12:43] <jbailey> mdz: Casper?
[12:43] <mdz> jbailey: the live CD magic
[12:43] <mdz> it uses pivot_root(8)
[12:44] <mjt> so just replace pivot_root(8) with run-init(to-be-8) ;)
[12:44] <mjt> pretty easy to integrate into busybox, btw
[12:44] <mdz> more likely replace pivot_root(8) with similar mount/chroot stuff
[12:45] <mdz> it needs to do a few more things before execing init
[12:45] <mdz> and it doesn't exec init, even, it lets init do that
[12:45] <mjt> yes - deleting old stuff
[12:45] <mdz> no, I meant casper needs to do more things
[12:45] <jbailey> mdz: I need to bug off to a dinner engagement...  Anything else you need before I run off?
[12:46] <dholbach> sleep tight guys... i'm off
[12:46] <mjt> i once tried to pivot_root and umount /initrd with initramfs - the kernel freezes... ;)
[12:46] <mdz> jbailey: nah, I need to run myself
[12:46] <mdz> jbailey: you want to take on #1763 for Hoary?
[12:46] <mdz> it would clean up a lot of mess
[12:48] <jbailey> mdz: Yeah.  I've just assigned it to me.
[12:50] <mdz> ok, thanks
[12:50] <mdz> I've been pretending to get around to it for too long
[12:50] <sladen> jbailey: the DSDT updates can be done at the moment by appending it onto the initrd
[12:51] <jbailey> sladen: If we're talking about shipping a pre-generated config, though, it would be nice to not muck with the shipped kernel at all, and have grub hand it in.
[12:51] <sladen> jbailey: from what I remember the initramfs includes a more formal way of doing that
[12:51] <jbailey> sladen: That way it's completely independant with no magic.
[12:52] <sladen> jbailey: I was originally thinking of hacking grub to do the appending at load time, but I think other people were keener on doing it in mkinitrd
[12:52] <jbailey> sladen: I don't know enough about it yet.  I'm lucky.  Aside from being fubar with 2.6.10, my laptop's acpi Just Works(tm)
[12:53] <mdz> Kamion: how much of a headache would it be to rename /install to /boot (or some such) on the CDs?
[12:53] <jbailey> sladen: I gotta run, sorry.
[12:53] <jbailey> *poof*
[12:59] <mdz> jdub: when the about ubuntu page moves into yelp, will we be able to translate it then?
[01:20] <YokoZar> Hey, can someone help me with a packaging problem I'm having.  It seems like it's a simple thing I'm overlooking (a make error) but, strangely, the .deb file builds and works fine (although it bugs out before it can ask for my password)
[01:22] <mjt> .deb file should not ask for any passwords...
[01:22] <YokoZar> Err yeah it gets there and then bugs out before signing the dsc
[01:23] <mjt> if there's a "make error", it should not build.  error in signing (as dpkg-buildpackage performs) is non-fatal
[01:26] <lupus_> would enabling extended attributes on the home directory by default
[01:26] <lupus_> inpact performance
[01:26] <lupus_> impact
[01:28] <mjt> just enabling EAs makes no difference
[01:28] <lupus_> beagle needs it :)
[01:28] <lupus_> so I wonder if it be worth while for ubuntu to enable it
[01:28] <mjt> enabling and *using* ACLs (which are built on top of EAs) will impact performance a little
[01:29] <lupus_> does ubuntu create a seperate partition for /home if you select default install?
[01:29] <crimsun> lupus_: no
[01:29] <mjt> your question was like  "if i put this dir there, will it impact on peformance?" -- the answer is "yes, if you will hit the dir hard" ;)
[01:30] <sivang> rehi all
[01:30] <lupus_> isn't it safer for the user if ubuntu would create a seperate partition for /home and maybe /var
[01:31] <lupus_> I remember my slackware box not working anymore after 8gig of logs :) in /var hehe
[01:31] <lupus_> gig = GB
[01:36] <thully> I can officially say that the timezone bug is GONE!  Just tested w/system clock on local time (and Windows installed) and everything seems to be working fine
[01:37] <lupus_> nice :)
[01:42] <mjt> which $TZ bug it was?
[01:58] <jdub> mdz: when the about ubuntu page is docbook based, the doc team can set up i18n infrastructure for it
[01:58] <jdub> mdz: yelp will handle i18n/docbook
[02:12] <mako> mdz: you still need me?
[02:13] <mdz> mako: no, I was looking for a copy of the keyring from Mataro, but I ended up finding them all on keyservers anyway
[02:13] <mjt> . o O { don't throw away please }
[02:13] <sivang> I am posting this link again :) if anyone has remarks or other stuff, mail me and I'd appriciate it : the new g-s-t pkg should have ubunut's 2 default profiles for creating users, default (unprivileged) and Desktop , link:
[02:13] <sivang> http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/g-s-t/
[02:14] <mako> mdz: i think it's at people.u.c/~mako/ksp-mataro/
[02:14] <mdz> mako: that page lies and says that it will be there by the time of the keysigning
[02:14] <mdz> but there's no link
[02:14] <mako> ok.. i forgot to turn on the link
[02:14] <mako> i did upload it
[02:14] <mako> let me fix that
[02:15] <mjt> speaking of repeating "postings".. what to do with videocard driver problem in xorg package? Just file a bugreport?
[02:16] <mako> mdz: fixed
[02:16] <daniels> mjt: bug report on xserver-xorg
[02:16] <mjt> (i've a prob with trident_drv - xv extension does not work; while using that driver from xfree-4.3 helps - surprizingly it works with xserver-xorg)
[02:17] <mjt> er
[02:17] <mjt> so the next question is - how to file a bugreport against ubuntu package?  I've a mix of debian/ubuntu right now, and don't even know where's the ubuntu bug tracking system... ;)
[02:18] <mdz> if you have a mix of Debian and Ubuntu, try reproducing your problem with only Ubuntu first
[02:18] <mdz> that is not a supported configuration
[02:19] <mjt> it does not really matter in this case
[02:19] <mdz> booting a Hoary daily live CD would be a good test
[02:19] <mdz> don't be so sure
[02:20] <mjt> eh-heh.. I't be nice to have live CD here... ;)
[02:20] <mjt> for some reason it isn't available in russian stores ;)
[02:21] <mdz> it is available on russian Internet
[02:22] <mdz> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[02:22] <mjt> sure it is
[02:23] <mjt> 497Mb / 3Kb/s = 165666 sec = 46 hours ;)
[02:23] <mdz> gah, openGL apps are still hanging my laptop
[02:25] <mjt> speaking of benig sure -- what else, except of the xserver package (well, all packages from xorg source, really) can be a problem in this case?
[02:26] <mjt> i see no other possibility
[02:31] <mdz> it is inappropriate to file bugs based on a mixed system
[02:31] <mdz> it is documented extensively that we neither recommend nor support this
[02:33] <daniels> mjt: you have no idea the amount of weird problems that can spring from Debian with half the Ubuntu X.Org packages on them, trust me
[02:34] <mjt> i think i do have that idea... ;)
[02:34] <mjt> been there myself ;)
[02:36] <mjt> this very prob is driver-vs-hardware, not software-vs-software issue
[02:38] <schweeb> mjt: your request would be better received if you partitioned, ran a pure ubuntu hoary system, and THEN checked for the problem, and filed the bugreport
[02:39] <mjt> ok
[02:39] <mdz> you should choose whether you want to run Debian or Ubuntu; neither project will want to receive bug reports from a system with both sets of packages
[02:40] <mjt> i really just wanted to know whenever i can solve the prob directly, with a help from someone more expirienced with that area
[02:40] <mjt> for now it works for me, after "downgrading" the driver to xfree-4.3, so i'm all set
[02:41] <mjt> no "broken" bugreports (from mixed install/whatever), that is.
[02:43] <mjt> maybe someday i will have some time to debug/fix it myself, who knows..
[02:45] <mdz> thanks for understanding
[02:48] <mjt> oh well
[02:50] <YokoZar> mdz: email sent to ubuntu-devel
[02:51] <mdz> YokoZar: I hope that you don't intend to notify me of each message sent to ubuntu-devel ;-)
[02:51] <YokoZar> ehh, nah.  Just the first big one we were talking about last night
[02:51] <mdz> there are quite a few of them, and I am subscribed to the list, so they are sent to me automatically
[02:52] <robertj> mdz: is there going to be an install updates automatically option on update-manager?
[02:52] <robertj> i see the download option all there by it's lonely self
[02:53] <jdub> robertj: very tentative maybe once some other bits fall into place
[02:53] <mdz> no, I don't expect there will be
[02:53] <mdz> it isn't wise to install Ubuntu updates unattended
[02:54] <jdub> robertj: but vveeeerrrryyy tentative
[02:54] <mdz> especially not on a development branch
[02:54] <robertj> mdz: well on the dev branch I understand, but for stable it seems like a good idea
[02:54] <jdub> mdz: once we've got "you need to re-login" and "you need to reboot" flags for upgrades, letting users turn automagic installs on stable systems would be fairly sane
[02:55] <robertj> jdub: might I add that XP does not behave smartly in this regard
[02:55] <mdz> I disagree; packages are not designed with that in mind
[02:55] <robertj> if you don't respond to the dialog it will automatically reboot your system, which is just great when you are playing a game
[02:55] <HrdwrBoB> haha
[02:55] <jdub> nice one.
[02:56] <mdz> the user takes an explicit action, saying "it is OK if things get a bit weird until I am finished with this operation"
[02:56] <mdz> and things do get weird
[02:56] <HrdwrBoB> auto download is a nice (and already implemented in apt) option
[02:56] <robertj> mdz: security updates should minimize wierdness though
[02:56] <YokoZar> Perhaps we should incorporate more XP annoyances like that into Wine, to make it more compatible.
[02:56] <jdub> firefox upgrade == weird!
[02:56] <jdub> YokoZar! DUDE!
[02:56] <jdub> man, i've been trying to catch you :)
[02:56] <YokoZar> Ah
[02:56] <YokoZar> hey
[02:57] <robertj> installing during an idle time might be nice
[02:58] <HrdwrBoB> what's an idle time?
[02:59] <jdub> mdz: you can answer the autopackage question :)
[02:59] <jdub> HrdwrBoB: when does your screensaver start? :)
[02:59] <robertj> yeah, it's good enough for most users
[02:59] <HrdwrBoB> jdub: yes, but when I come back to my desk and firefox is all bizarre because it updated while I was at lunch
[02:59] <HrdwrBoB> or all the windows have closed
[03:00] <jdub> or you get those wonderful xul errors
[03:00] <jdub> "you can't quit because <!--- OSIUDFOIjdjjjdjdjj cccccxssssshhhhhh..."
[03:00] <robertj> jdub: I just know none of my users run their softwareupdates
[03:01] <robertj> they go out of their way dragging the dialog to the bottom of the screen because they have forgotten their passwords
[03:01] <HrdwrBoB> that's an inherent user problem though
[03:01] <robertj> it is, but there is no good way to remedy it I'm afraid
[03:02] <jdub> lobotomy
[03:02] <HrdwrBoB> big stick
[03:02] <robertj> I can't crond softwareupdate because quicktime has graphical prompts
[03:02] <jdub> electric shock therapy
[03:02] <HrdwrBoB> graphical prompts suck
[03:02] <jdub> there was some dude
[03:03] <robertj> it's great, it even does it on quicktime
[03:03] <jdub> who turned up on the gnome lists a few years ago
[03:03] <jdub> who thought that tamagotchis were the future of user interfaces
[03:03] <robertj> err even does it on 10.3 server
[03:03] <HrdwrBoB> but the problem there is up to the sysadmin locally, not really ubuntu
[03:03] <HrdwrBoB> wtf?
[03:03] <jdub> and encouraged us to use emotional blackmailing as a user interface device
[03:03] <robertj> jdub: haha
[03:03] <robertj> "Do your updates or we will sodomize this hackergotchi"
[03:04] <HrdwrBoB> hahahaha
[03:04] <mdz> jdub: it solves all problems, who can argue with that?
[03:04] <jdub> "i'm sad, you should upgrade me!"
[03:04] <jdub> "i made a mess! fsck this!"
[03:04] <robertj> I swear, I wish there were viruses specially designed to mess with stupid people
[03:05] <HrdwrBoB> there are
[03:05] <robertj> not this lame stuff like we have now, but stuff that really ruined careers by editing word documents andspreadsheets
[03:05] <HrdwrBoB> except smart people have to fix it
[03:05] <robertj> If it was good they could fix it when they took their job ;)
[03:25] <robertj> has pam_keyring been given a oneover?
[03:35] <lupus_> hmm gtkmm 2.5.5 seems to be the only thing missing for using coaster in hoary
[03:44] <YokoZar> How long does it take the wiki to email me after I ask for an account?
[03:59] <jdub> YokoZar: shouldn't take long
[03:59] <YokoZar> jdub: thanks
[03:59] <YokoZar> Ah, it's in there now
[03:59] <jdub> Kamion, lamont, elmo: is there anything useful a normal human can do to help sarge's mipsel woes?
[05:00] <srbaker> are there any prerelease hoary cds?
[05:03] <jdub> cdimage.ubuntu.com
[05:04] <srbaker> excellent.  thanks
[05:05] <srbaker> going to install from the current cd
[07:22] <thully> just closed that annoying timezone bug for good
[07:25] <thully> also, btw - if anyone before remembers my troubles with conflicts between snd-intel8x0m and hsfmodem drivers from linuxant - the latest versions of these resolve the problem without blacklisting anything!
[08:23] <sivang> thully: cool, migh solve the problem for me and my dell lappi ?
[08:24] <aj> daniels: around? (or any other X types?)
[08:27] <fabbione> aj: ?
[08:27] <aj> 915g chipset support on warty?
[08:27] <sivang> anyone have an abiword installation? I have a light emeregency, I need to save an abiword doc (which is in XML) to a .doc or .rtf (shush, god forbid) so it would be printable in a uni's lab...
[08:27] <aj> daniels indicated there was 2d support, but i810 doesn't seem to see anything?
[08:27] <fabbione> iirc no, you need Xorg and 2.6.10 for dri
[08:28] <fabbione> probably the flgrx driver can manage it
[08:29] <aj> don't seem to have such a driver?
[08:29] <aj> do i need to switch to hoary, or?
[08:29] <fabbione> aj: it's in l-r-m
[08:30] <aj> l-r-m?
[08:30] <fabbione> aj: fglrx is the ati binary driver (restricted -> linux-restricted-modules)
[08:30] <fabbione> otherwise you can grab X.org from hoary
[08:30] <sivang> all that I need is for someone to open the file, save it as RTF and that's it ;-)
[08:31] <fabbione> sivang: i can do it
[08:31] <fabbione> sivang: put the file somewhere
[08:32] <sivang> fabbione: Can I send you it using email? they block anything but smtp and pop3 and http here :-(
[08:33] <fabbione> sure
[08:33] <sivang> fabbione<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[08:33] <fabbione> yup
[08:33] <aj> modprobe fglrx just says "No such device"
[08:34] <fabbione> aj: i am not 100% sure.. i hate binary crap, but iirc you need to rmmod r128 or something like that
[08:36] <aj> r128's not loaded
[08:36] <sivang> fabbione: sent
[08:37] <fabbione> aj: according to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BinaryDriverHowto there is nothing special you need to do...
[08:37] <fabbione> aj: i am afraid you need more recent stuff
[08:37] <aj> so xserver-xorg from hoary?
[08:37] <fabbione> aj: you need a bit more than the server
[08:38] <aj> ?
[08:38] <aj> beyond what apt pulls in with it?
[08:38] <fabbione> clearly you need the libs too
[08:38] <fabbione> just upgrade the x-window-core virtual package
[08:38] <fabbione> (or something like that)
[08:39] <fabbione> it will pull in everything you need
[08:39] <fabbione> x-window-system-core
[08:39] <fabbione> this one should be enough
[08:42] <sivang> fabbione: lemme know when you've sent , sorry for the troulbe
[08:42] <fabbione> sivang: done.. mail is coming back
[08:42] <sivang> fabbione: thank you!
[08:42] <fabbione> no problem
[08:43] <fabbione> i am back to bed
[08:43] <aj> fabbione: yay, 130M download :(
[08:43] <fabbione> fever is going down but not that much yet
[08:44] <fabbione> aj: only?
[08:44] <fabbione> put the fonts on hold
[08:44] <fabbione> i am pretty sure they get updated too
[08:44] <aj> fabbione: it's mostly python, i think
[08:44] <fabbione> it might reduce a few MB
[08:44] <fabbione> are you dist-upgrading?
[08:44] <sivang> fabbione: get well soon!
[08:44] <aj> fabbione: nah, that's a 400MB download
[08:44] <fabbione> Xorg does
[08:44] <aj> fabbione: easier to wait 10mins than futz more
[08:44] <fabbione> Xorg doesn't need python updated
[08:45] <aj> *shrug* seems to
[08:45] <fabbione> at least... NOT when i packaged it
[08:45] <aj> probably have some python-gnome module installed that wants the old X and the old python or the new X and the new python
[08:45] <fabbione> right
[08:45] <fabbione> that's possible due to the lib split
[08:46] <fabbione> good catch
[08:46] <aj> well, hopefully this'll work; thanks and get well :)
[08:46] <fabbione> aj: good luck.. :)
[08:46] <fabbione> welcome and cya around
[08:46] <sivang> fabbione: c'ya soon, and well :)
[08:46] <fabbione> thanks sivang
[08:58] <aj> err, that almost worked, except the 1024x768 modeline doesn't seem to exist after a dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg?
[09:13] <syn-ack> Man, I thought seb128 was going to be here.
[09:14] <syn-ack> I wanted to thank him for getting that bug fixed in Rhythmbox so quick. I thought that since I filed it as "trivial" it would be on the bottom of the list.
[09:39] <dholbach> morning
[09:39] <syn-ack> good morning.
[09:40] <sivang> dholbach: hey daniel, morning :)
[09:40] <dholbach> sivang: hello sivan!
[09:40] <dholbach> sivang: how did g-s-t go?
[09:42] <sivang> dholbach: I have a source pkg for you ;-) http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/g-s-t
[09:42] <sivang> dholbach: I have to go now, be online again later, let me know if you managed to use it :)
[09:42] <dholbach> sivang: right, i'll give it a go
[09:51] <sladen>  /whois aj
[09:52] <sladen> it is that aj
[10:17] <Riddell> sladen: no it isn't, it's the other aj
[10:31] <Mithrandir> depends on which aj is the other aj for you.
[10:52] <Kaloz> morning
[11:05] <Kamion> mdz: I don't really see a good reason to rename /install to /boot, and on some architectures it would cause me considerable confusion in the CD scripts, so I'd rather not
[11:06] <Kamion> mdz: I'd rather not conflate directory names on the CD with directory names on an installed system that have a sort-of-similar but not-quite-identical meaning
[12:27] <dholbach> hello seb128
[12:28] <seb128> hi
[01:13] <Kamion> mdz: 12:13 < svenl> Kamion: can you ask Matt to look at the mail titled "Re: Ok to commit ubd patch ?" from december 19 ?
[01:13] <Kamion> mdz: (parted)
[01:22] <thom> jdub: how is beagle, slacker
[01:22] <thom> and where is my netapplet list?
[01:23] <jdub> are you sitting down?
[01:24] <thom> yes
[01:25] <jdub> i attempted to relax this weekend :)
[01:25] <thom> HFSNW!
[01:26] <jdub> it was not all out proper relaxation
[01:26] <jdub> tony put star wars battlefield in pipka's handbag before we left
[01:26] <jdub> oh yes
[01:26] <jdub> btw
[01:26] <jdub> pipka has a handbag
[01:27] <mjg59> Bugger. All the LCA accommodation has gone.
[01:28] <jdub> YokoZar: :-)
[01:29] <thom> sorry, don't believe you
[01:29] <jdub> i'm serious!
[01:29] <jdub> dude, i can get photos
[01:29] <jdub> hold on
[01:29] <thom> you'll have to
[01:29] <mjg59> Serious as cancer?
[01:30] <mjg59> pub
[01:30] <mjg59> Argh
[01:30] <thom> mjg59: dude, you've obviously been drinkin' already ;p
[01:30] <dholbach> *grrrr* why does  gnome_program_init()  crash *cry*
[01:31] <jdub> nah, it would just not be the same if it weren't pipka+handbag
[01:32] <jdub> (she's asleep now)
[01:32] <thom> ahr
[01:32] <thom> oh well; i'll continue to disbelieve you then
[01:43] <dholbach> hai ogra
[01:43] <Kamion> elmo: can http://people.ubuntulinux.org/patches/ be made to work again, please? It used to work, and I mailed some patches to Debian on that basis; now I'm getting grief because they don't work any more.
[01:44] <ogra> dholbach
[01:44] <ogra> hi
[01:44] <Kamion> or for that matter
[01:44] <Kamion> thom: ^---
[01:44] <thom> i'll take a look post breakfast
[01:45] <Kamion> ta
[01:45] <thom> (and yes, i know it's getting on for 1pm :-) )
[01:45] <ogra> hehe...
[01:45] <Kamion> not as if I've had breakfast yet ...
[01:46] <dholbach> anyone who would like to test if coaster-0.1.4 just crashes on my box (amd64) or anyone would like to provide a manpage, while i battle gdb? ;-)
[01:55] <T-Bone> Kamion: hi, got my last message?
[01:56] <dholbach> brb
[01:56] <ogra> i have very bad news....
[01:57] <ogra> to make this work: http://www.grawert.net/hal_cpu_patch.png http://www.grawert.net/hal_acpi1.png http://www.grawert.net/hal_acpi2.png .....
[01:57] <ogra> acpi has to be stared before hal.....which extends the bootime by a second :(
[01:58] <ogra> mdz ^^^
[01:59] <Kamion> T-Bone: which one?
[01:59] <T-Bone> Kamion: the one i sent yesterday, summarizing what's up with ia64 and the 'hal bug'
[02:00] <Kamion> T-Bone: did you get my mail saying that I think it's architecture-independent?
[02:00] <thom> ogra: yeah, that's total crack, i've been following the threads on the hal list
[02:00] <ogra> thom: i backported it to our hal ;)
[02:00] <thom> ogra: i suspect we'll be taking a different approach :-)
[02:01] <T-Bone> Kamion: nop
[02:01] <ogra> thom: before hoary ?
[02:01] <thom> ogra: we'll see
[02:01] <T-Bone> Kamion: ah bummer. You sent it to @parisc-linux.org ?
[02:02] <dholbach> re
[02:03] <Kamion> T-Bone: yeah, think so
[02:03] <T-Bone> Kamion: FtC<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and a few debian machines) is down for the week end. Can you resend it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>please?
[02:03] <Kamion> T-Bone: bounced
[02:06] <T-Bone> Kamion: got it, thx
[02:06] <Mitario> hi everyone
[02:06] <T-Bone> Kamion: i'm definitely _NOT_ running in expert mode
[02:07] <T-Bone> the amd error occurs in non expert mode 3 times
[02:08] <T-Bone> and networking was up. It downloaded a few Releases/Packages files but took an error at the end
[02:08] <T-Bone> and i have NFC what needs to be done to get a driver hotplug-capable :P
[02:08] <T-Bone> for the rest I'll look at it post-breakfast
[02:08] <T-Bone> (and yes it's 2PM) ;}
[02:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: huh, weird
[02:13] <T-Bone> Kamion: was mostly looking like it couldn't fetch some release/package file actually
[02:14] <T-Bone> i'll try to find out in a bit
[02:14] <T-Gone> Kamion: the problem being that aptitude starts immediately, thus making it impossible to read the message
[02:15] <T-Gone> (that's imho a bad thing (tm))
[02:30] <Kamion>   rhythmbox: Depends: gstreamer0.8-mad which is a virtual package.
[02:30] <Kamion>   libopenh323-1.13.2: Depends: libpt-1.6.3 but it is not installable
[02:30] <Kamion>   libpt-plugins-v4l: Depends: libpt-1.6.3 (= <IP_ADDRESS>-5.1) but it is not installable
[02:30] <Kamion> anyone working on that lot?
[02:31] <Kamion> T-Gone: the message is logged in /var/log/base-config.log
[02:31] <zopi> Hi
[02:32] <zopi> is it plan to add gst-ffmpeg on Ubuntu ?
[02:32] <zopi> http://freshmeat.net/projects/gstreamer/?branch_id=55564&release_id=183840
[02:32] <zopi> there is a package for Debian already on alioth
[02:32] <tseng> zopi: its a legality issue, I believe
[02:32] <zopi> pkg-gnome.alioth.debian.org/debian/pool/g/gst-ffmpeg/
[02:33] <zopi> huh ?
[02:35] <dholbach> does anyone know, who Jakob Schurdak is? or if he's on IRC?
[02:36] <Kamion> ah, finally, working networking on the OQO
[02:36] <Kamion> we need linux-wlan-ng in main
[02:37] <jdub> Kamion: woo :)
[02:38] <Kamion> I don't get to use the CD-ROM and networking at the same time, but hey ...
[02:38] <jdub> oh?
[02:38] <Kamion> well, DVD-ROM
[02:38] <Kamion> USB DVD-ROM and USB network adaptor; only one USB slot.
[02:39] <jdub> ahr
[02:39] <Kamion> don't think I have a hub either
[02:39] <jdub> how's everything else? mouse?
[02:40] <Kamion> haven't got the mouse working yet, but one of the guys mailed me an xorg.conf which I'll try in a moment
[02:40] <Kamion> just installing ubuntu-desktop over ssh
[02:40] <jdub> rad!
[02:40] <Kamion> until I had networking working, it was too painful to do any significant text-mode development
[02:40] <Kamion> the keyboard is usable for short periods, but hacking on it sucks
[02:41] <Kamion> just fixed up base-installer for it, since it didn't know about transmeta CPUs
[02:42] <jdub> whoa
[02:42] <Kamion> (wasn't a showstopper, it fell back to 386 anyway, so didn't make a difference on cdrom installs)
[02:45] <trulux> mdz: ping
[02:49] <Kamion> so, are we removing -mad support from rhythmbox, or what?
[02:50] <Kamion> it seems a shame not to have it able to play MP3s if gstreamer0.8-mad is installed; does it have the ability to use plugins?
[02:51] <Kamion> it doesn't seem to actually link against the gst backends ...
[02:51] <tseng> right now muine uses the libs directly to read metadata, and gst/xine for playback
[02:51] <tseng> i think the other gst players are in the same boat
[02:52] <rubenv> Kamion: heh?
[02:52] <rubenv> still plays mp3 here :)
[02:52] <Kamion> I'm really just wondering if rhythmbox can be made to work without gstreamer0.8-mad installed, yet still have the added functionality if gstreamer0.8-mad is installed
[02:52] <Kamion> rubenv: yes, it still depends on gstreamer0.8-mad
[02:52] <Kamion> rubenv: the problem is that rhythmbox is in main while gstreamer0.8-mad is in universe, so it can't stay that way
[02:53] <rubenv> seems like the whole file formats thing should be made modular
[02:53] <tseng> rubenv: thatd be fine, when everyone switches to using gst for reading metadata
[02:54] <rubenv> ain't the xine metadata horribly broken on RB?
[02:54] <jdub> Kamion: rhythmbox doesn't need the gstreamer plugin installed
[02:55] <jdub> Kamion: without it, it doesn't do mp3; with it, it does
[02:55] <rubenv> so basically there's nor problem at all
[02:55] <Kamion> jdub: in that case I'll fix our package to stop depending on it
[02:55] <tseng> oh, i thought he wanted to remove mp3 support more
[02:55] <jdub> Kamion: (this is exactly what we did for warty)
[02:56] <jdub> Kamion: hrm, bad merge?
[02:56] <tseng> jdub: tomboy today? sorry to sound like a broken record
[02:56] <jdub> tseng: ahr!
[02:56] <jdub> tomorrow
[02:56] <tseng> its nearly freeze
[02:56] <jdub> it is very near to bed time here
[02:57] <tseng> alright dude, have a good one.
[02:57] <Kamion> jdub: could be, looking
[02:58] <daniels> fabbione: er, i915 is intel, dude
[03:01] <aj> hoary's xorg with a manually added horizsync/vertrefresh worked fwiw
[03:02] <Kamion> jdub: yeah, looks like a plain merge glitch, fixing
[03:06] <thom> gar, I want mono on amd64
[03:06] <jdub> thom: mint doesn't work?
[03:06] <thom> jdub: bootstrap hell
[03:06] <jdub> heh
[03:06] <jdub> eek
[03:06] <jdub> ah, bedtime.
[03:06] <thom> jdub: 1.1.3 would be the right solution ;-)
[03:07] <thom> g'night
[03:07] <daniels> aj: bong.  please send over xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log.
[03:07] <daniels> jdub: yes
[03:07] <jdub> thom: my desktop is 2002:dad6:43e3:0:230:1bff:feb3:cd1 :-)
[03:07] <jdub> but my gateway is not routing to it atm
[03:08] <thom> that's something of a show stopper ;-)
[03:08] <thom> my ISP has native v6 support on it's dsl, but i need a new router to cope
[03:08] <thom> uh, its
[03:08] <jdub> shorewall is a showstopper :|
[03:09] <thom> shorewall needs to burn in the utmost fires of hell ;-)
[03:10] <jdub> got a suggestion for a replacement?
[03:10] <thom> unfortunately not
[03:10] <jdub> (i don't write firewall assembly, btw)
[03:10] <jdub> oh
[03:11] <jdub> same problem here whenever i go looking for something
[03:11] <thom> i write firewall assembly when necessary
[03:11] <T-Bone> Kamion: my guess is that there's little chance that making mptscsih hotplugable is a good idead actually: you need it to boot the box no matter what after the installation, and some machines ship with SCSI CD drives
[03:11] <T-Bone> Kamion: imho the right thing to do is to have it preloaded at initrd time
[03:11] <Kamion> T-Bone: we are using hotplug for hardware detection in general
[03:11] <T-Bone> as mptbase is already
[03:11] <Kamion> T-Bone: there's a project in the works to have hotplug running in the initrd to figure out what to load
[03:12] <Kamion> so mptscsih should be made hotpluggable
[03:12] <T-Bone> Kamion: well then you have to tell me how to do that
[03:12] <Kamion> there are others around here far more qualified to do that than I
[03:12] <T-Bone> Kamion: are we trying to increase boot time on ubuntu?
[03:12] <Kamion> mdz knows the basics
[03:12] <Kamion> at least
[03:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: er, no
[03:13] <Kamion> we're trying to make hardware detection not a screaming nightmare
[03:13] <T-Bone> Kamion: well then even tho i can imagine why you want to hotplug everyhting, you'll end up increasing it anyway I'm afraid ;P
[03:13] <Kamion> not significantly
[03:13] <lupus_> is gaim default download folder pointing to Desktop?
[03:13] <Kamion> the number of modules in the initrd is not large, and grepmap speeds it up enough
[03:13] <T-Bone> depends on the hardware
[03:13] <lupus_> like it is ubuntu policy
[03:13] <thom> Kamion: p.u.c/patches/ works now
[03:13] <Kamion> thom: thanks
[03:13] <T-Bone> Kamion: loading the initrd is already a slow operation on some machines
[03:14] <Kamion> look, we're committed to hotplug; none of the other hacks were sufficiently maintainable
[03:14] <Kamion> so the solution to any gripes with hotplug is to fix hotplug. :)
[03:15] <Kamion> I am *certainly* not going back through the installer and undoing all the changes I made to make it use hotplug
[03:15] <Kamion> even if it weren't a hoary goal
[03:15] <T-Bone> heh
[03:16] <T-Bone> that's fine by me. I know how to disable initrd/hotplug when i want to :)
[03:16] <Kamion> look for MODULE_DEVICE_TABLE sections in other drivers; that should be a good starting point
[03:16] <T-Bone> (and i usually do)
[03:16] <Kamion> T-Bone: jbailey is the one working on hotplug in initramfs
[03:17] <T-Bone> Kamion: the base-install.log is absolutely cripled. Is that a dump of what's actually displayed on the screen? It's barely human readable
[03:17] <Kamion> it's generated by 'script'. Yeah, it's hard to read
[03:17] <T-Bone> yeah i'll ask jeff asap
[03:17] <Kamion> doesn't matter though 'cos you're generally only looking at it for debugging :)
[03:18] <T-Bone> i'm surprised since I'm finding error messages there that I haven't even noticed during base install
[03:19] <Kamion> T-Bone: anyhow, hoary's boot with hotplug almost throughout is already faster than most other distributions
[03:19] <T-Bone> There was a prm installing the selected software  One or more packages failed to install. This may be due to bugs in the  packages, or you may be ouof disk space or experiencing some other  problem.
[03:19] <T-Bone> this is what it says
[03:19] <Kamion> right, probably uninstallable ubuntu-desktop
[03:19] <Kamion> this happens a fair bit I'm afraid :(
[03:19] <Kamion> I'm fixing up one of the problems right now, that's the rhythmbox thing
[03:20] <T-Bone> doh
[03:20] <T-Bone> found the culprit
[03:20] <T-Bone>   openoffice.org-debian-files: Depends: openoffice.org-bin (> 1.1.2+1.1.3) which is a virtual package.
[03:20] <T-Bone>   openoffice.org: Depends: openoffice.org-bin (> 1.1.2+1.1.3) which is a virtual package.
[03:20] <T-Bone>   ia32-libs-openoffice.org: Depends: lib32gcc1 (>= 3.4.2-2ubuntu3) which is a virtual package.
[03:20] <T-Bone> now that suprises me alot; i ran apt-get install ubuntu-desktop by hand and it worked just fine
[03:20] <Kamion> oh, um, argh, that's going to be complicated
[03:21] <Kamion> elmo: around?
[03:21] <T-Bone> lol
[03:21] <Kamion> elmo: does your stuff that generates Task: ubuntu-desktop lines use current germinate / otherwise take account of architecture-specific seed entries?
[03:22] <Kamion> elmo: openoffice.org* shouldn't have Task: ubuntu-desktop on ia64
[03:22] <Kamion> T-Bone: if you used 'aptitude install \~tubuntu-desktop', you'd see the problem
[03:23] <T-Bone> correct
[03:23] <T-Bone> just reproduced it
[03:23] <Kamion> T-Bone: we have 90% of the infrastructure for fixing that though, in germinate<EMAIL_ADDRESS>if you want to look); looks like it just needs to be pushed out to one more place
[03:24] <T-Bone> what's that URL?
[03:25] <T-Bone> oh
[03:25] <T-Bone> that's an arch thing?
[03:25] <Kamion> yeah; install bazaar
[03:25] <Kamion> then 'baz register-archive<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:26] <Kamion> then 'baz get<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:26] <T-Bone> gah
[03:26] <Kamion> (or tla works too)
[03:26] <T-Bone> yeah but it's "arch" you know
[03:26] <T-Bone> ;P
[03:27] <aj> daniels: ?
[03:28] <aj> daniels: what do you want to conf/log for? (is the one that worked useful?)
[03:33] <daniels> aj: if you have to think about touching xorg.conf, it's a bug -- non-working (default) conf/log is useful to me so i can hopefully fix it
[03:34] <thom> seb128: nautilus/gamin is hosed
[03:34] <daniels> night kiddie-winks
[03:34] <dholbach> thom: even with jdub's new upload?
[03:34] <thom> dholbach: how new is new
[03:34] <thom> night daniel
[03:34] <dholbach> thom: 2-3 hours
[03:35] <dholbach> thom: 0.0.21-0ubuntu2
[03:35] <Kamion> T-Bone: (of course, fixing OOo on ia64 would be good, too ... :-) but that may be beyond the resources you have, OOo being the monster it is)
[03:36] <T-Bone> you damn betcha :)
[03:36] <T-Bone> and i hate java
[03:36] <T-Bone> ;)
[03:36] <thom> dholbach: lets try that
[03:38] <seb128> thom: what ?
[03:40] <tseng> morn mxpxpod
[03:40] <dholbach> hi mxpxpod
[03:40] <mxpxpod> tseng: mornin'... what's up?
[03:40] <mxpxpod> hey dholbach!
[03:41] <tseng> mxpxpod: nm dude, see priv
[03:41] <mxpxpod> tseng: got it :)
[03:41] <Kamion> haggai: seems to be a missing include of <stdio.h> or <cstdio> or whatever in src680-m66/desktop/source/m
[03:41] <Kamion> igration/services/jvmfwk.cxx
[03:41] <Kamion> haggai: (sorry for broken line), judging from the powerpc build log
[03:41] <Kamion> haggai: (openoffice.org2)
[03:42] <mxpxpod> tseng: what has improved in tomboy 0.3.1?
[03:42] <tseng> mxpxpod: see .changes
[03:42] <mxpxpod> tseng: ah, ok
[03:43] <mxpxpod> dholbach: thanks for the translation
[03:43] <mxpxpod> dholbach: I'm going to make a <IP_ADDRESS> release today
[03:44] <dholbach> mxpxpod: cool! :-)
[03:44] <dholbach> mxpxpod: just wrote a manpage for coaster and got a fully-compiling package without any lintian-warnings - bad thing is: still a segfault in gnome_program_init() :-(
[03:44] <mxpxpod> dholbach: I have a fix for the egg libraries from bugzilla
[03:45] <mxpxpod> dholbach: that's strange... I'd like to see a backtrace
[03:45] <dholbach> mxpxpod: it's very short, i'll send it in a query
[03:45] <rubenv> dholbach: when trying to build coaster pkgs a while ago, i got the same probs
[03:45] <mxpxpod> dholbach: ok
[03:45] <mxpxpod> that's really really strange... I'm on ubuntu hoary and it works fine for me compiling from source
[03:45] <thom> seb128: nautilus doesn't appear to be updating the Desktop when files land in ~/Desktop; I have to open Desktop as a folder and reload it
[03:45] <dholbach> rubenv: were you able to fix it?
[03:46] <rubenv> dholbach: because of upcoming exams i didn't start to look into the source :)
[03:46] <dholbach> rubenv: hmmm, i'll have an exam next week monday too (in fact my last ;-))
[03:46] <mxpxpod> dholbach: could you file a bug?
[03:46] <mxpxpod> in coaster's bugzilla with that trace?
[03:47] <mxpxpod> rubenv: what arch are you on?
[03:47] <rubenv> thom: click on desktop, ctrl-r, saves you time when gamin doesn't do it ;)
[03:47] <rubenv> i386
[03:47] <mxpxpod> hmm
[03:47] <seb128> thom: blame gamin/inotify :)
[03:47] <mxpxpod> powerpc works fine ;)
[03:47] <dholbach> mxpxpod: of course... just wasnt sure, if i broke the libraries or something
[03:47] <thom> rubenv: shrug, i don't really care, i'm just reporting the bug :-)
[03:47] <thom> seb128: heh
[03:47] <thom> seb128: not gtk+, then?
[03:47] <rubenv> dholbach: me tuesday, also last
[03:47] <dholbach> mxpxpod: but inkscape and regexxer worked fine with those g*mm packages
[03:47] <seb128> thom: gnome-session-remove nautilus && GAM_DEBUG=1 nautilus
[03:47] <dholbach> rubenv: i'll have my fingers crossed
[03:48] <mxpxpod> dholbach: hmm
[03:48] <rubenv> dholbach: thx, will do the same
[03:48] <mxpxpod> dholbach: file a bug and I'll take a look at it
[03:48] <mxpxpod> dholbach: that really confuses me
[03:48] <dholbach> mxpxpod: i can easily imagine
[03:48] <mxpxpod> because it's usually powerpc that has problems :)
[03:49] <dholbach> mxpxpod: just the same with amd64 ;-)
[03:49] <mxpxpod> dholbach: what's your repo's address again?
[03:49] <thom> *sigh*; once i g-s-r'd nautilus and reran it, it works.
[03:49] <dholbach> mxpxpod: http://ubuntu.stufenseite.de
[03:49] <thom> killall nautilus however hadn't cured it
[03:50] <mxpxpod> is gamin replacing fam finally?
[03:50] <dholbach> mxpxpod: but i'll move another coaster package to it later (when i figured that *grmbl* manpage out)
[03:50] <dholbach> mxpxpod: yes, since 0.0.21-0ubuntu2
[03:50] <mxpxpod> dholbach: you should really set up a repo that people can apt-get from
[03:51] <dholbach> mxpxpod: if you tell me how...
[03:51] <tseng> dholbach: second
[03:51] <mxpxpod> dholbach: we can work on it tomorrow
[03:51] <dholbach> mxpxpod: i dont want it to be a lasting institution
[03:51] <tseng> dholbach: ill msg you a quick script
[03:52] <mxpxpod> rubenv: did you build coaster from source or did you use dholbach's pkgs?
[03:53] <rubenv> from source
[03:53] <rubenv> but it's quite some time ago
[03:53] <mxpxpod> rubenv: did you build the *mm libs from source too?
[03:53] <rubenv> (the coaster that still had bakery)
[03:53] <rubenv> mxpxpod: no
[03:53] <mxpxpod> rubenv: ohhh
[03:54] <mxpxpod> rubenv: the reason that crash didn't work was because bakery 2.3.11 had a different virtual method API than 2.3.10
[03:54] <mxpxpod> s/crash didn't work/crashed/
[03:54] <mxpxpod> dholbach: so, rubenv's crash is different from yours
[03:54] <mxpxpod> yours still puzzles me
[03:56] <dholbach> mxpxpod: one guy in the gnome BTS said, he had 0.1.4 working on hoary
[03:56] <mxpxpod> dholbach: yup
[03:56] <dholbach> mxpxpod: but he didnt have the libraries
[03:57] <mxpxpod> dholbach: try building the *mm stuff from source and then building coaster and tell me if you still get that crash
[03:57] <mxpxpod> if you don't, it's something with your libs
[03:57] <mxpxpod> :)
[03:57] <dholbach> strangely enough, it's /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0
[04:01] <dholbach> nothing i covered in the packages at all
[04:03] <mxpxpod> bbiab
[04:20] <dholbach> well guys... see you later (in an hour or two)
[04:50] <kent> on the hardwaresupport section of the wiki, I added a page for webcameras. Can some one check it and tell me if i did the right thing? I think I did the right thing, but I can remove it if it was wrong of me.  :)
[04:51] <rubenv> looks fine to me
[04:59] <marcin_ant> hello - short question - is Beagle installable/buildable (from cvs) on hoary?
[05:04] <mx|gone> tseng: has tomboy changed their notification area icon yet?
[05:07] <mjg59> thom: Oh, hi
[05:09] <rubenv> marcin_ant: i heared that jdub was making pkgs somewhere
[05:19] <dholbach> re
[05:21] <srbaker> anyone here doing the ubuntu thing on an ibook?
[05:21] <srbaker> i'm thinking about trading these two notebooks for an ibook g3
[05:21] <marcin_ant> rubenv: ok - thanks - I just was trying to follow procedure described on this page: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BeagleInstallHowto
[05:22] <marcin_ant> rubenv: but it doesn't work
[05:22] <sladen> srbaker: tonnes of people
[05:22] <tritium> seb128, did rhythmbox used to say "Paused" when playback is indeed paused?  It looks like fix for #5926 prevents "Paused" from ever being indicated.
[05:23] <srbaker> sladen, what's the verdict on speed?
[05:23] <srbaker> i'm thinking of going from a p3-750/192M to a g3 500/640M
[05:23] <sladen> srbaker: only you can be a judge of that.
[05:23] <mjg59> thom: Yeah, that looks good
[05:24] <srbaker> sladen, that doesn't help much.
[05:24] <seb128> tritium: dunno, the fix has been to drop the broken patch
[05:24] <thom> mjg59: anything to add?
[05:24] <sladen> srbaker: this is probably a question that belongs on #ubuntu (this is a development related channel)
[05:25] <tritium> seb128, I don't recall the behavior from before either
[05:25] <mjg59> thom: Nothing that springs to mind
[05:25] <mjg59> I'll play with the apm stuff later today
[05:25] <seb128> tritium: the current one, since the package has been patched and now the patch has been dropped
[05:25] <seb128> tritium: so it's back to the previous one
[05:26] <tritium> okay, thanks.
[05:28] <seb128> np
[05:28] <srbaker> sladen, i'm interested in hearing it from developers.  i know the difference.
[05:35] <titoo> Hello, any IBM laptop users? Ubuntu is not supporting my internal modem (t41p), I can use my laptop for testing if you have an idea but not the same hardware.
[05:37] <Mithrandir> titoo: I use an IBM laptop, but I couldn't care less about the internal modem. :P
[05:37] <rubenv> laptop now 2grams lighter :)
[05:38] <Mithrandir> ooh, I should do that. ;P
[05:38] <Mithrandir> (as I have an x40, so anything to get it lighter)
[05:38] <rubenv> dell here
[05:38] <Mithrandir> ew.
[05:39] <Mithrandir> I _seriously_ don't like dell due to personal experiences.
[05:39] <rubenv> Mithrandir: what happened?
[05:39] <Mithrandir> rubenv: I wore out two in less than a year, got fucked over a couple of times and wasted a lot of time on trying to fix it.
[05:40] <Mithrandir> (basically)
[05:40] <rubenv> :)
[05:40] <rubenv> (just in case ;))
[05:41] <titoo> Mithrandir: :( I am only needing 1 week a year... forced to use Windows
[05:42] <Mithrandir> titoo: buy (or just get) a real modem?
[05:43] <titoo> Mithrandir: I am looking at what is done on the Debian side, I may find
[05:45] <Mithrandir> titoo: there are supposed to be some solutions for those stuck with mwave modems, but I've never looked at it myself.
[05:47] <titoo> Mithrandir: True that I can get my old USRobotics out of the dust :)
[05:48] <Mithrandir> titoo: I'd do that if I were you -- probably less work. :)
[05:48] <mjg59> rubenv: It's an hsf modem
[05:48] <mjg59> There's no open driver
[05:49] <mjg59> Uh, s/rubenv/titoo/
[05:51] <titoo> mjg59: Thanks for the info, I understand the support pb...
[05:54] <dholbach> WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!
[05:55] <dholbach> just a sec
[05:55] <dholbach> have to upload it
[05:56] <rubenv> *poke* *poke* *whip* faster i tell ya
[05:57] <dholbach> rubenv: start building the g*mm-libraries unless you have amd64 :-)
[05:57] <rubenv> source debs anywhere? :)
[05:58] <dholbach> http://ubuntu.stufenseite.de
[05:58] <rubenv> jummy :)
[05:59] <dholbach> i'll try to make  tseng 's script work later; so you'd at least be able to  deb-src  them
[05:59] <rubenv> wget -r for now ;)
[06:01] <dholbach> rubenv: you'd just need the .dsc and .gz files :-)
[06:01] <smurfix> dholbach: isn't the volume name used by ubuntu these days, too?
[06:02] <dholbach> smurfix: ask mx|gone - it's his code :-)
[06:02] <smurfix> That's not code, that's a string in a .po file. ;-)
[06:03] <dholbach> smurfix: you're right, tomorrow there'll be <IP_ADDRESS> which has german translation :-)
[06:04] <dholbach> i'm so happy that it works :-)
[06:04] <dholbach> s/that//
[06:05] <dholbach> rubenv: you won't need the timer-applet :-)
[06:05] <rubenv> yeah, i noticed it slipping in ;)
[06:07] <dholbach> rubenv: i'll do an 0.1.4-2 upload, which is proper
[06:08] <rubenv> take your time
[06:08] <rubenv> mm stuff first ;)
[06:13] <dholbach> rubenv: nice to have you testing :-)
[06:14] <rubenv> with pleasure :)
[06:14] <rubenv> bleh, my puilder chroot is hopelessly outdated :)
[06:15] <dholbach> rubenv: i never got mine working actually :-(((
[06:15] <rubenv> dholbach: what's the problem?
[06:15] <dholbach> rubenv: it complains about gcc not being able to compile executables
[06:16] <rubenv> eh?
[06:16] <rubenv> i'll tell you what mine does in a sec :)
[06:16] <rubenv> it's been a while since i used it
[06:16] <dholbach> rubenv: but it's the same with each and every .dsc i feed it :-(
[06:17] <thom> bet you don't got build-essential installed
[06:17] <dholbach> thom: but i wonder why
[06:18] <dholbach> thom: i even told it    EXTRAPACKAGES=build-essential
[06:18] <rubenv> ah i hate ide :)
[06:19] <dholbach> rubenv: ide?
[06:19] <ubernoob> i upgraded to horax, and now x-screen wont start :( i just get a blank screen. anyone know what the problem might be?
[06:19] <ubernoob> *horay
[06:20] <rubenv> dholbach: the beloved hard disk interface we all like ;)
[06:20] <thom> ubernoob: users questions in #ubuntu, please :-)
[06:21] <ubernoob> thom: ok. sorry
[06:22] <dholbach> rubenv: be sure to grab  coaster_0.1.4-2*   - i'm cooking something
[06:22] <rubenv> glibmm is building
[06:25] <rubenv> glibmm builds perfectly :)
[06:26] <Nigelenki> pitti:  ping
[06:28] <rubenv> hmmm, i wonder how to make pbuilder pick up my freshly built pkgs
[06:31] <dholbach> rubenv: pick up?
[06:32] <rubenv> yeah, how to get pbuilder to use my freshly built glibmm
[06:32] <rubenv> must be first time i'm building a fresh dep tree
[06:32] <dholbach> rubenv: i use  debuild && sudo debi
[06:33] <rubenv> normally my libs were in universe
[06:33] <dholbach> well   dpkg-source -x <bla>.dsc; cd <bla>; debuild && sudo debi
[06:34] <rubenv> yeah, but i'm trying to build em in chroot
[06:35] <rubenv> normal building then :)
[06:44] <dholbach> rubenv: you were on i386?
[07:07] <abelli> sladen: ping
[07:07] <abelli> or ding
[07:09] <rubenv> dholbach: yes
[07:10] <dholbach> rubenv: so we'd need someone on powerpc to test it too ;-)
[07:24] <sladen> abelli: is 'ding' the sound a bicycle makes?
[07:24] <abelli> sladen: could be yeah
[08:08] <thom> yay, elmo is doing NEW
[09:00] <mdz> jdub: ping?
[09:31] <YokoZar> jdub: You asked me something earlier (roughly 8 hours ago) ?
[09:34] <sid77> hi
[10:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: http://err.no/patches/pam_env_per_user.diff ; what do you think of something along those lines to have an ~/.pam_environment which could be touched by the utf8 migration tool (and anything else that wants to handle such a file with a somewhat-predictable format)
[10:57] <Kamion> Mithrandir: going out soon so I haven't reviewed it in detail, but the spirit looks fine; I assume it has the same format as /etc/environment, that an assignment in ~/.pam_environment supersedes any assignment of the same name in /etc/environment, and that if a name isn't mentioned in ~/.pam_environment then the value from /etc/environment is used?
[10:58] <Kamion> I think that'd basically be my spec
[11:01] <mdz> Kamion: what would be the consequences of skipping the location question on the live CD?
[11:01] <mdz> bad keyboard layout defaults?
[11:04] <Mithrandir> Kamion: yeah, that's the idea at least.
[11:04] <Kamion> mdz: you wouldn't get a full locale. I don't want en_US ...
[11:04] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I had to whack pam_env a fair bit to make it suck in different ways -- the code should be completely rewritten, but that's for another day.
[11:05] <Kamion> mdz: language and location are a single udeb now, partly to emphasise the fact that they really can't be split up
[11:29] <mdz> Mithrandir: I don't remember if I heard from you regarding evms-udeb; did you have a chance to look into it?
[11:31] <Mithrandir> mdz: I've looked at it a bit and if we want to support all of what evms is capable of, it's a fair chunk of work (and frankly, I'm not sure we should do it, as the UI will be horrible).  If we just want to do what partman-lvm is doing (and which should be enough for a lot of the use cases we're interested in, it's a couple of days of work.
[11:32] <Mithrandir> mdz: so the answer is "it depends".
[11:33] <mdz> Mithrandir: I think trying to do everything EVMS does through a cdebconf UI would be horrific
[11:33] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I agree.
[11:33] <robertj_> hey mdz: do you know anything about gecko#?
[11:33] <mdz> we should provide the basic types of configurations that people want to use on their root filesystem
[11:33] <mdz> robertj_: nope
[11:33] <mdz> e.g., RAID, LVM and RAID+LVM
[11:33] <robertj_> the dashboard guys said jdub was giving it some TLC to work with beagle .5+
[11:33] <Mithrandir> mdz: that ought to be doable with, somewhere around a week of work, I think.
[11:35] <mdz> Mithrandir: could you email me a quote based on this basic spec?
[11:35] <mdz> Mithrandir: how is the utf8 migration tool going?
[11:36] <Mithrandir> mdz: I've found out how to do it and begun hacking the surrounding stuff (like, we probably want http://err.no/patches/pam_env_per_user.diff to have pam_env support ~/.pam_environment.  Else, we'd have to migrate the whole system at once.
[11:36] <mdz> Mithrandir: migrating the whole system at once is fine for the desktop, really
[11:37] <Mithrandir> mdz: I'm designing it to work in two modes -- per user and whole-system.  Whole system will convert all users' home directories, change locale in /etc/environment, stuff like that, while per-user will just do it for one user.
[11:38] <Mithrandir> most of the code will be shared, so that shouldn't be a problem.
[11:45] <Kamion> mdz: (oh, note that if there's only one sane country to pick for that language, then the country question will already be skipped; try e.g. Greek)
[11:46] <mdz> Kamion: oh, ok
[11:47] <Kamion> well, s/skipped/asked at medium priority/
[11:51] <mdz> Kamion: do we use 'high' now, or still 'critical' by default?
[11:51] <Kamion> high
[11:51] <Kamion> fixed some automatic install issues that way
[11:52] <Kamion> mdz: oh, did you see http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/kickstart.png?
[11:52] <mdz> I was thinking that casper's needs probably correspond fairly closely to what I imagine 'critical' ought to be
[11:52] <Kamion> mdz: yes, very possibly indeed
[11:52] <mdz> re: kickstart.png, no, I hadn't
[11:52] <Kamion> although critical is kind of intended to be used in conjunction with a tuned preseed file, at the moment
[11:53] <mdz> is that a modified version of RH's kickstart tool?
[11:53] <Kamion> yep
[11:53] <Kamion> getting there; should have *something* in by feature freeze
[11:53] <Kamion> though not everything will work yet in that timeframe
[11:53] <mdz> speaking of which, could you make a quick pass over HoaryGoals and make any appropriate status updates for your items?
[11:54] <Kamion> then I have a piece that sits in the initrd, reads kickstart files, and sets the corresponding debconf questions
[11:54] <Kamion> ah, yes, been meaning to do that
[11:54] <mdz> so the output from that tool is a kickstart file, which will be read by some kickstart-aware d-i component and used to provide answers to debconf questions?
[11:54] <Kamion> right
[11:55] <mdz> neat
[11:55] <mdz> what's the normal way to provide the file?
[11:55] <Kamion> should I take myself off the UTF-8 goal, or leave myself there as documentation?
[11:55] <mdz> (the latter)
[11:55] <Kamion> various, you boot with ks=<stuff>
[11:55] <mdz> the documentation team guys will be going through that list at some point to write up the release notes
[11:56] <Kamion> pretty much the same modes of operation as preseed
[11:56] <mdz> and they'll want to contact people for more information
[11:56] <Kamion> there will be a small amount of suckage with regard to things that run before hardware detection; I'm not sure if I'll be able to fix those or whether we'll just have to tell people to add some extra bootloader options for hoary
[11:57] <mdz> ah, hmm
[11:57] <mdz> language/location/keyboard fall into that category, right?
[11:57] <Kamion> yeah
[11:58] <Kamion> preseed has the same problem, so it's not new
[11:58] <Kamion> anaconda basically runs appropriate hardware detection early in kickstart mode
[11:58] <Kamion> which is not necessarily infeasible in d-i, if you accept some messages being untranslated; I haven't tried it out though
[12:00] <Nuak> hi all
[12:00] <Nuak> i want to collaborate in the rosetta project
[12:00] <Nuak> translating into spanish
[12:01] <Kamion> mdz: HoaryGoals updated
[12:01] <Nuak> do you know where i can register myself into the rosetta project?
[12:01] <mdz> Nuak: there is a channel specifically for Rosetta questions/discussion, #rosetta


[03:24] <wendar> dpm: yes, I'll be at UDS
[03:24] <wendar> ah, he's gone
[03:37] <ajmitch> yeah, otherwise I'd have replied to him also
[03:37]  * ajmitch still has jono's email to reply to