[00:12] <Unit193> ochosi: OK, I thought an xfconf channel would be cool.  I can test a patch to see if it seems long enough though, if that'd help.  And I keep not mentioning because there's no need, I abhor gtk-swtches, the new one has them.  I think most everything else was either addressed in the icon theme or xfpm itself, I at least remember checking some upower info for it.
[05:49] <ochosi> Unit193: i could make a greybird variant for you where switches look like checkboxes
[05:50] <Unit193> Wow, thanks for the offer!  But alas, I use (a patched) Numix.  But as I said, it's not a "regression" per se.  Though I'd not want to sync the current version in Experimental, would want the new release.
[05:51] <ochosi> i guess i could patch a patched nunix too ;)
[05:51] <Unit193> :o
[05:51] <ochosi> just so that i dont pester you both about it, would you take care of xfpm1.6 or shall i poke sean?
[05:52] <Unit193> I'd likely take longer than him, I'd want it in Debian. :P
[05:52] <Unit193> I could likely do it anyway though.
[05:53] <ochosi> having it in debian is not a mistakrle
[05:53] <ochosi> as long as we get if before FF ;)
[05:54] <Unit193> I'll see if it's time for unstable rather than experimental.
[05:57] <Unit193> ochosi: Anything else dev-wise to note?  Or that I should note?
[06:05] <ochosi> yeah, there is an a11y feature i would like to include in xfce4-settings
[06:06] <ochosi> "find my cursor"
[06:06] <ochosi> the code already exists and the author agreed to let us include it
[06:06] <Unit193> Wait, didn't windows XP or something have this feature?
[06:07] <Unit193> Hold a button and it had a closing ring on it?
[06:07] <ochosi> i'd probavly do it synchronously upstream (if bluesabre agrees) with a patch release and then we could sync that
[06:07] <ochosi> yup, exactly that
[06:07] <ochosi> comes in handy in todays multi-monitor world
[06:08] <ochosi> and finally maybe another clipman release with a search function
[06:08] <ochosi> if i get to it
[06:08] <ochosi> the parole patches i would postpone until after FF
[06:08] <Unit193> Yeah sounds nice.
[06:10] <ochosi> thats the rough plan
[06:10] <ochosi> if no dramatic bugs come up
[06:10] <Unit193> So the problem with me doing stuff in Debian is that pkg-xfce has to migrate to Git from Svn, which is "fun"
[06:11] <ochosi> there are some scripts and helpers for that though
[06:11] <ochosi> i do that at $dayjob.from time to time
[06:12] <ochosi> or: whats the fun part?
[06:15] <Unit193> Basically just doing it.
[06:15] <ochosi> in any case, maybe bluesabre can take cafe of xfpm
[06:15] <Unit193> I've done a few, but none for pkg-xfce yet.
[06:35] <Unit193> ochosi: spelling-error-in-binary usr/bin/xfce4-power-manager excuting executing
[06:35] <Unit193> appstream-metadata-in-legacy-location usr/share/appdata/xfce4-power-manager.appdata.xml   too if you feel like it, but personally I don't care in the slightest. :)
[06:39] <ochosi> sounds like something i should fix tonight
[06:39] <ochosi> we have a lot of appstream work to do...
[06:40] <Unit193> There's an appstream checker somewhere hosted.
[06:41] <ochosi> yeah, i know
[06:41] <ochosi> but appstream is also "fun" ;)
[10:16] <bluesabre> Unit193: is there anything else that needs to be taken care of there? I can help with patches so we can get 1.6.2 out and work with Corsac on getting it to salsa
[10:17] <Unit193> bluesabre: Looks like a simple version bump, built it and didn't see anything pressing.
[10:17] <bluesabre> cool
[10:20] <Unit193> Dunno why you're asking me though. :D
[10:20] <Unit193> So far I have it built, but just sitting in /var/cache/pbuilder/result/bionic/ :3
[10:45] <bluesabre> Unit193: since I knew you'd built it and looked at lintian :)
[10:46] <Unit193> Only other upstream ones: binary-file-built-without-LFS-support, binary-without-manpage, desktop-entry-lacks-keywords-entry
[19:40] <knome> ochosi, since we carry that script to convert svg to png in the artwork package, maybe we could look at doing that for the wallpapers at some point as well?
[19:41] <ochosi> we could, but then the recolor feature of xfdesktop would break, no?
[19:41] <knome> hmm?
[19:48] <ochosi> hm, i don't remember anymore if we did that or not (ship a wallpaper with partly transparent background and set a background color in xfdesktop)
[19:49] <knome> we didn't
[19:49] <ochosi> and i thought svg was an advantage there for some reason..
[19:49] <knome> and png supports alpha anyway...
[19:49] <knome> nah
[19:49] <knome> we already ship png
[19:49] <ochosi> ok, in that case there is no reason not to convert svg to png
[19:49] <ochosi> with the script i mean
[19:49] <knome> the thing is we could then put the svg's on the package
[19:49] <knome> and convert to png
[19:49] <ochosi> yeah, it's very simple, it's in debian/rules
[19:49] <ochosi> if you wanna take a look
[19:50] <knome> yeah, but probably for 18.10
[19:50] <ochosi> i'll keep hogging that find-cursor topic meanwhile
[19:50] <knome> i'm optimizing our wallpaper png's
[19:50] <ochosi> still hope i can get that into 18.04
[19:50] <knome> either we didn't do this before or software has gotten better
[19:50] <knome> i get 20-30% decrease in size for most
[19:51] <knome> also, do we want to drop some older relases with this LTS?
[19:51] <knome> maybe drop everything pre-16.04?
[19:52] <ochosi> yeah, why not
[19:52] <ochosi> we could also push them to a legacy or nostalgia package
[19:52] <knome> looks like we did a similar thing before
[19:52] <ochosi> but i'm not sure it's worth the effort
[19:52] <knome> sure we can
[19:52]  * knome shrugs
[19:52] <ochosi> could also put it on the website
[19:52] <knome> ask the packagers
[19:52] <knome> we already have it in launchpad
[19:52] <ochosi> just to keep it "available" somewhere
[19:52] <knome> iirc..
[19:52] <ochosi> right, but LP is not very discoverable
[19:53] <knome> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team/xubuntu-marketing/current/files/head:/wallpapers/2560x1600/
[19:53] <knome> and the sources https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team/xubuntu-marketing/current/files/head:/wallpapers/sources/
[19:53] <knome> i know but link to them
[19:53] <knome> why duplicate the effort
[19:53] <knome> :P
[19:54] <knome> also should optimize the png's on that branch
[19:55] <ochosi> yeah, sure, linking to LP should be fine
[19:55] <ochosi> indeed
[19:55] <knome> heeey, i was able to make my NUC make some noise!
[19:56] <knome> guess i should also clean up some day
[19:56] <knome> gets dusty in here...
[21:10] <flocculant> bluesabre: not happening on the live session - but what I'm seeing locally is no right click menu in catfish - not sure whether to report, as possibly an effect of something in ppa, so just ftr unless you want it reported


[00:48] <starrats> hello again b elkinsa
[00:49] <starrats> belkinsa
[00:50] <belkinsa> Hey there, we are not having any release parties for the team.
[00:50] <starrats> ah okay
[00:50] <belkinsa> We are still very inactive to get something going.
[00:50] <Unit193> Everyone is on 14.04 anyway, what's the point? ;)
[00:50] <belkinsa> Not everyone.
[00:51]  * belkinsa still on 13.10
[00:51] <starrats> lol hello again Unit193
[00:52]  * starrats just got rid of 13.10 on VBox and put on Debian'xfce Wheezy to play with
[00:52] <Unit193> Yeah, I still have one on 13.10 and one on 12.04, but nevertheless.
[00:55] <starrats> be back on tomorrow,
[17:40] <starrats> good afternoon everyone!
[17:43] <andygraybeal> :)
[17:46] <starrats> I hear Ubuntu 14.04LTS has been released, well in Europe from my source over there, but anyway congratulations to you all!!
[18:03] <starrats> hello again
[21:27] <ronnoc> Happy release day everyone!
[21:27] <paultag> :D
[21:27] <paultag> you toO!
[21:27] <paultag> \m/
[21:27] <paultag> starrats: thanks!
[21:27] <belkinsa> Thanks!
[21:27] <belkinsa> You too!
[21:27] <ronnoc> \m/
[21:28]  * dzho is getting All The ISOs
[21:28] <belkinsa> And I'm geting that blog post written as we speak
[21:28] <belkinsa> dzho, why?
[21:28] <ronnoc> I'm seeding kubuntu torrents atm, then will move on to the others
[21:28] <dzho> belkinsa: a) to see the torrents and b) so I can slap them on a keychain drive and share
[21:28] <belkinsa> AH
[21:28] <starrats> you are welcome paultag!!  :)
[21:29] <dzho> ronnoc: good point.  I've just got the vanilla (gnome) versions, but I'm a lubuntu user, too, so I should get those too eventually.
[21:29] <belkinsa> I used the Ubuntu torrent and it was way faster.
[21:29] <belkinsa> 15 minutes vs 2 grs
[21:29] <belkinsa> hrs*
[21:29] <dzho> the biggest bandwidth help now of course seems to be desktop-amd64
[21:29] <starrats> brb
[21:29] <ronnoc> yea plus saves bandwidth and server-slamming :)
[21:29] <dzho> didn't take much time at all for my upload to hit 3GB there
[21:30] <Unit193> dzho: Using any loopback config with grub to boot them all? :D
[21:30] <dzho> heh
[21:30] <dzho> I see the words but I do not understand them together like that.
[21:30] <Unit193> I'm seeding the xubuntu ones because I already about had them, quick zsync up and they were done.
[21:31] <dzho> oh.
[21:31] <ronnoc> nice
[21:31] <dzho> Unit193: yeah, I didn't hop on the betas
[21:31] <belkinsa> And done: http://ubuntusense.com/2014/04/17/14-04-release-today/
[21:31] <jenni> [ 14.04 Release Today | The Ubuntu Sense ] - https://j.mp/1hQ1I0U
[21:31] <Unit193> dzho: I'm part of the Xubuntu team, I keep the dailies around if I could.
[21:31] <ronnoc> I should add the linuxtraker.org trakers as well...
[21:31] <Unit193> Upgraded this computer to trusty a couple months back or so. ;P
[21:32] <dzho> damn my $EMPLOYER network connection
[21:32] <dzho> aws hosted stuff is so slow
[21:32] <Unit193> So there's linuxtracker, but sf.net or something needs to set up something for opensource projects. :/
[22:16] <ronnoc> dzho: yea might as well seed them all :)
[22:18] <belkinsa> Oh.
[22:18] <belkinsa> Ubuntu Canada is having a release party via Hangouts
[22:18] <belkinsa> If you want to join in.
[22:51] <ronnoc> that's a great idea
[22:51] <Unit193> Crash the party! :D
[22:55] <belkinsa> Jono Bacon came
[23:11] <ronnoc> nice. I have no cam atm on this PC :/
[23:11] <ronnoc> Next release we can have an ohio party
[23:12] <belkinsa> Yeah, since there is no holidays when 14.10 will be released
[23:13] <belkinsa> Or via Hangouts is your idea.
[23:15] <ronnoc> well hangouts if a RL event can't happen
[23:15] <ronnoc> or maybe both - why not
[23:16] <belkinsa> Both seem to be a mess when in a public place.
[23:25] <belkinsa> But we could try.
[23:26] <ronnoc> if it's somewhere with good wi-fi we should be OK
[23:26] <ronnoc> like a uni
[23:27] <belkinsa> Yeah...well maybe not a uni
[23:28] <ronnoc> or a Panera Bread
[23:29] <belkinsa> Or that.
[23:31] <andygraybeal> :)
[23:31] <belkinsa> You guys want to do one now?
[23:32] <belkinsa> An at home one?
[23:32] <belkinsa> Just via Hangouts
[23:37] <andygraybeal> i'v enever used it before
[23:37] <andygraybeal> and besides i don't think anyone would want to see my mug
[23:37] <belkinsa> lol
[23:40] <andygraybeal> i'll join though to see what hangouts is
[23:40] <andygraybeal> if you want to start it
[23:40] <belkinsa> Sure.
[23:40] <andygraybeal> i assume all i need is a modern browser
[23:40] <andygraybeal> and a google account
[23:40] <belkinsa> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYeTDYrpBDoWUa_IgLuAdwtPp53hmac8HjnAlNQQw3BVN6j7kg
[23:40] <jenni> [ Google+ ] - https://j.mp/1hQsVk8
[23:40] <belkinsa> Yeah, you need a plug in of Hangout and a modern broswer
[23:42] <andygraybeal> k installing plugs
[23:44] <belkinsa> Nice dreads
[23:44] <andygraybeal> hah this is hilarious
[23:44] <andygraybeal> htanks
[23:44] <belkinsa> Mute Jeff
[23:44] <andygraybeal> who are you belkins?
[23:44] <belkinsa> Okay, I'm making a new hangout
[23:45] <belkinsa> One sec
[23:45] <andygraybeal> my webcam sucks
[23:45] <andygraybeal> it's probably a good thing though
[23:45] <belkinsa> WHo you are on G+
[23:45] <andygraybeal> 'andy graybeal
[23:45] <andygraybeal> i think
[23:46] <belkinsa> One
[23:46] <belkinsa> sec
[23:46] <jenni> oh baby
[23:46]  * belkinsa SLAPS jenni
[23:47] <andygraybeal> who has the strange accent?
[23:47] <andygraybeal> micheal i think
[23:48] <belkinsa> Dunno
[23:48] <belkinsa> Yeah, he is from London
[23:48] <andygraybeal> yea, this is awesome
[23:48] <belkinsa> Did Jeff leave again?
[23:48] <ronnoc> someone should record it and send to Youtube :)
[23:48] <belkinsa> It's not on air anymore
[23:48] <ronnoc> ahhh :/
[23:49] <andygraybeal> what does 'on air' mean?
[23:49] <belkinsa> Streaming live to YouTube
[23:49] <belkinsa> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYeTDYrpBDoWUa_IgLuAdwtPp53hmac8HjnAlNQQw3BVN6j7kghttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYeTDYrpBDoWUa_IgLuAdwtPp53hmac8HjnAlNQQw3BVN6j7kg
[23:49] <jenni> [ Google+ ] - https://j.mp/1hQuHSt
[23:49] <belkinsa> Sorry
[23:50] <ronnoc> Yeah there are "hangouts" and then there are "hangouts on air"
[23:50] <ronnoc> that go to youtube or twitch
[23:50] <belkinsa> The on air ones do
[23:51] <ronnoc> right
[23:51] <andygraybeal> i cannot make out what 'svetland' is saying
[23:51] <andygraybeal> 'svetlana' it is very distorted
[23:51] <belkinsa> Oh, sorry.
[23:52] <belkinsa> Stupid mic
[23:52] <andygraybeal> are you svetlana ?
[23:52] <belkinsa> Yup
[23:52] <andygraybeal> yes, sounds like voice syntheziser :)
[23:53] <andygraybeal> a very bad one :)
[23:53] <andygraybeal> my picture looks like mud though :)
[23:53] <belkinsa> If you want #ubuntu-ca
[23:53] <andygraybeal> where is jeff?
[23:53] <belkinsa> It's cool, I have seen worse
[23:53] <belkinsa> Eggroll place in Canada.
[23:53] <andygraybeal> oh this is #ubuntu-ca ?
[23:54] <andygraybeal> nice
[23:54] <belkinsa> Yeah, they are active.
[23:55] <andygraybeal> i heard them talking about lake erie!!
[23:56] <belkinsa> Yeah.
[23:56] <belkinsa> It's the first 53 minutes of the hangout that is on air
[23:57] <andygraybeal> are you in canada
[23:57] <belkinsa> Me?  No?
[23:57] <belkinsa> NO*
[23:57] <andygraybeal> cool
[23:57] <belkinsa> Sorry
[23:57] <andygraybeal> cinci
[23:57] <andygraybeal> i see
[23:57] <belkinsa> Yup
[23:57] <andygraybeal> that was awesome!!!
[23:58] <andygraybeal> does google have a 'desktop control' feature?
[23:58] <belkinsa> Where are you from?
[23:58] <belkinsa> Dunno.
[23:58] <andygraybeal> i live in southeastern ohio
[23:58] <belkinsa> Where?
[23:58] <andygraybeal> next to parkersburg and athens
[23:58] <belkinsa> So not close to cinci
[23:59] <andygraybeal> it's aewsome, i have 20 acres of property
[23:59] <andygraybeal> them morels should be poppin!!
[23:59] <andygraybeal> no, the other side of the state
[23:59] <andygraybeal> are you from ohio?


[12:15] <mhz> bytes
[01:27] <bddebian> Hello
[04:19] <gotama> Help! How to get the boot messages on ltsp client? (shell 2)
[04:21] <ajay_> RichEd, sup
[04:39] <cafuego_> gotama: Edit the pxeclient.cfg/default file and remove 'splash quiet' from the boot params.
[04:44] <gotama> Thanks
[04:44] <gotama> I am having problems with a sound card (cmi8738)
[04:45] <gotama> When i boot the client the messages are to fast to be read.
[04:46] <gotama> Do you have any idea?
[05:14] <sbalneav> Evening all
[05:14] <LaserJock> hi sbalneav
[05:15] <sbalneav> Hey LaserJock!!!
[06:23] <bddebian> Hello sbalneav
[06:23] <sbalneav> Hello bddebian!
[07:19] <sbalneav> Yawn.  Time for bed.  Night all.
[07:33] <pygi> Burgwork, poke
[07:42] <jsgotangco> RichEd: i got your email
[08:36] <RichEd> hi jsgotangco ... am still googling for stuff ... but not so easy to find (have found quite a lot by book activists saying reading is better !)
[08:37] <RichEd> harry potter activisits :) also crusading against tv & playstation
[08:37] <jsgotangco> RichEd: yeah its pretty hard, we're going to align now what's in the E Media program and what we have in Edubuntu
[08:37] <jsgotangco> but the key is for edubuntu to complement existing curriculum
[08:38] <jsgotangco> or develop a module if needed
[08:39] <RichEd> jsgotangco: i've been tasked (yes more) to look at LAMS ... and helen (of the TSF and email) as put me in touch with the australian originator ... you familiar with LAMS
[08:39] <RichEd> has put me <-
[08:39] <jsgotangco> RichEd: yeah I'm familiar with LAMS, although honestly i forgot about it!
[08:39] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[08:41] <jsgotangco> but this is more suited for group collaboration
[08:41] <RichEd> semantics comment: "the key is for edubuntu to complement existing curriculum"
[08:42] <jsgotangco> yeah? we can't disrupt the curriculum
[08:43] <jsgotangco> and most of these teachers aren't really computer-savvy for starters
[08:46] <RichEd> "the key is for edubuntu to allow /facilitate suitable applictions & content to complement existing curriculum"
[08:46] <RichEd> edubuntu will never be in the business of content
[08:46] <RichEd> but must allow sutaible content to be located, accessed, and managed
[08:47] <RichEd> is the curriculum defined anywhere ?
[08:47] <RichEd> documented ?
[08:47] <RichEd> okay - mail time ! - will send some links to you if i find any to academic improvement through it docs
[08:47] <RichEd> and parting note for now, we also need to create a framework for peer-to-peer teacher collaboration ...
[08:47] <RichEd> i.e. if one teacher finds content or an application that works well towards curriculum goals, they need to be able to rate it and share it
[08:47] <RichEd> part of the medium term plan
[08:55] <ajay> RichEd: sup
[08:55] <ajay> RichEd: its DrkLrd here
[08:55] <RichEd> hello ajay: got your mail open, just dealing with a high-priority enquiry for the boss.
[08:56] <RichEd> i've got a plan for you, which i will send to you by email soon (next hour or two) ... will you be around to chat ?
[08:57] <RichEd> jsgotangco: the view shared with mark was that "a biology teacher is best equipped to help another biology teacher"
[08:57] <RichEd> TSF has been doing research in how peer collaboration can be effective, and how to initiate it
[08:57] <ajay> RichEd: okies
[08:58] <ajay> RichEd: i will be here mate
[08:58] <RichEd> so we need to make a collaboration space teacher friendly, and then get come champions to get on board
[08:58] <RichEd> e.g. we've been discussing how mail lists suit techies ... but forums a preferred by lay people
[08:59] <RichEd> but as above, need to get busy now ... just popped my head back here for a sec.
[09:00] <jsgotangco> RichEd: not at all, we're (edubuntu) is not going to create content
[09:45] <RichEd> 'lo will ... head buried in emails ... but hi !
[09:55] <Burgundavia> hey RichEd
[09:55] <RichEd> 'lo Burgundavia
[09:55] <RichEd> willvdl: meet Burgundavia
[09:55] <RichEd> Burgundavia: meet willvdl
[09:56] <RichEd> Have a quick tuXlabs Case Study chat while I am busy elsewhere :)
[09:56] <jsgotangco> cool
[09:57] <Burgundavia> RichEd: ok cool. Too bad so much else has come up (getting ready to go to LWE right now)
[09:59] <RichEd> Burgundavia: willvdl  & I will do a lot of the work for you ... managing the process as we have dedicated focus ... so you can just be nudged for input & advice & comments
[09:59] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[09:59] <Burgundavia> given my life might be about to change rather radically, that is good
[10:00] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: ?
[10:01] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: I am currently looking at all kinds of options in the very near future
[10:01] <jsgotangco> "all"
[10:02] <Burgundavia> some might involve significant amounts of time away from the computer and Ubuntu
[10:02] <jsgotangco> i see
[10:02] <Burgundavia> nothing is set in stone yet
[10:03] <jsgotangco> im about to enter in a very complex chapter in my career so it seems too
[10:03] <Burgundavia> certainly not about to abandon Ubuntu and Linux permanently
[10:03] <RichEd> jsgotangco: if the move works out for you ... then Helen is a good person to get to know !
[10:03] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: where are you planning to move to?
[10:04] <jsgotangco> RichEd: its rather complicated, the foundation has a no-computers policy to age 9 below
[10:04] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: I agree with that idea
[10:04] <jsgotangco> so the focus is highschool
[10:04] <RichEd> jsgotangco: no problem with that ...
[10:04] <jsgotangco> besides most stuff in kde-edu are complicated for kids
[10:04] <RichEd> i let my kids have very selected access ... even though there are 4 - 6 PCs in my house, they are lucky to get 4 hours a month
[10:05] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: with a very very influential foundation over here by the biggest media company
[10:06] <Burgundavia> very nice
[10:06] <Burgundavia> my parents made me "earn" computer time, by spending time outside, on a 1:1 ratio
[10:06] <Burgundavia> something I bitched about at the time but will do if I ever have kids
[10:07] <jsgotangco> we're not even aiming 1:1 probably 2:1 or 3:1 worse
[10:08] <jsgotangco> but the program should result in haveing improved student performance in math and sciene
[10:11] <willvdl> My father was only too happy to dive into the things. He needed someone inhouse to explain it to him
[10:11] <willvdl> Hi folks, busy morning..
[10:15] <jsgotangco> wow rodarvus is now in planet!
[10:42] <cbx33> pin g ogra
[10:50] <ogra> pon g cbx33
[10:50] <cbx33> I've fixed the bugs in scp
[10:50] <cbx33> working on the spec today
[10:50] <cbx33> almost finished the kill process part
[10:51] <cbx33> I have a branch registered on LP if you want to merge at any time
[10:51] <ogra> cool
[10:51] <ogra> !
[10:51] <ogra> i'll look at it during the day :)
[10:51] <cbx33> ok np
[10:58] <ajay> RichEd: ?
[10:59] <RichEd> yes DarkLrd ajay ?
[10:59] <ajay> lol
[11:00] <ajay> RichEd: u said u wanted to talk
[11:00] <RichEd> can you give me 15 mins ? will send you the email background, and then we can chat.
[11:00] <ajay> sure
[11:04] <ajay> hey tuxboy17
[11:04] <tuxboy17> hi ajay
[11:04] <ajay|AFK> bbl
[11:05] <ajay|AFK> enjoy tuxboy17! talk to people there are really nice guys here mate
[11:06] <cbx33> hi tuxboy17
[11:07] <tuxboy17> hi cbx33
[11:07] <tuxboy17> :)
[11:17] <RichEd> hi ogra
[11:19] <RichEd> can you clarify for my understanding here: " Only xchat will be in main.  Xchat-gnome is being moved to universe for Kubuntu" & "I've been told that it'll happen starting with Edgy"
[11:19] <RichEd> can I assume that main is the same across Ubuntu / Edubuntu / Kubuntu & same for universe ?
[11:19] <RichEd> if not, where can i brush up on mu understanding
[11:20] <Burgundavia> RichEd: yes
[11:20] <RichEd> schweet ... Burgundavia :)
[11:20] <Burgundavia> main/u/multi/restricted refer to the repos, which are common across X/Edu/K/Ubuntu
[11:20] <Burgundavia> ogra: we moving x-g out and xchat back in?
[11:21] <RichEd> Burgundavia: that's a thread i picked up on in #xchat this morning
[11:21] <cbx33> Burgundavia: Yes Please
[11:21] <Burgundavia> RichEd: odd, cause x-g was moving into main for dapper and xchat to universe?
[11:21] <Burgundavia> cbx33: yes please?
[11:22] <cbx33> on the moving of xchat back in
[11:22] <Burgundavia> both are crap, tbh
[11:22] <RichEd> this thread all started for me when i was using xchat under win and when i moved to ubuntu, i started asking dumb questions about why the interface was suddenly so kak
[11:22] <Burgundavia> GNOME has a troubled history with irc clients
[11:23] <RichEd> then discovered that a "fresh user like me" would be let to beleive that the xchat he searched for and installed was the real deal
[11:23] <RichEd> led to believe
[11:24] <RichEd> and only when i checked [x]  unsupported applications did the xchat search reveal the xchat option as well as xchat-gnome
[11:25] <RichEd> found myself in the middle of a big debate ... some say xchat-gnome is easier for the rookie to learn ... most say xchat has a superior interface and is more intuitive ... and not much more difficult to come to terms with
[11:25] <Burgundavia> both have issues
[11:25] <Burgundavia> both have nice features
[11:26] <RichEd> so that is the end user perspectrive (from my experience) and although i did not motivate the bug request that i believe has led to the swop, i'm happy to see it
[11:26] <Burgundavia> well, neither are installed by default
[11:27] <RichEd> nope, agreed, but my initial search & install led me down the unexpected (did not want to say wrong) path
[11:27] <RichEd> as a matter of interest, is there an equivalent of xchat-gnome under windows ?
[11:27] <Burgundavia> mirc?
[11:28] <RichEd> (because i am speaking as a windows convert ... and that is a big part of our target audience)
[11:28] <RichEd> so we want the old experience to match the new experience
[11:28] <Burgundavia> right
[11:28] <RichEd> xchat-gnome does not look or feel like mirc under windows
[11:28] <Burgundavia> have you seen what Userful do with DiscoverStation, to match the windows interface?
[11:28] <Burgundavia> I personally hate it, but it is an idea, if we want to go down that path
[11:29] <RichEd> the lack of permanent channel user window was my biggest b!tch
[11:29] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:30] <RichEd> and in IRC terms, no permanent channel user window is a buit like flying blind ... who's here, who's away, who's ops
[11:30] <Burgundavia> the x-g people have their own ideas about things
[11:30] <RichEd> nope ... haven't seen userful ... got a link or ref ?
[11:31] <Burgundavia> let me find you one. Our (Userful's) website is a mess
[11:31] <RichEd> tx.
[11:31] <Burgundavia> RichEd: http://www.softpedia.com/screenshots/DiscoverStation_3.png
[11:32] <Burgundavia> http://www3.userful.com/images/devices.gif
[11:32] <Burgundavia> with menu open
[11:35] <RichEd> Burgundavia: forgive me if this is a dumb question, but doesn't that look pretty much like Kubuntu (and Kubuntu is imho a very slick'n'sexy look'n'feel) ... what is difference in goal ? (apart from the KDE apps)
[11:36] <Burgundavia> DiscoverStation is for public computers, like tuxlabs or in libraries
[11:36] <Burgundavia> it is GNOME, but hacked to look like Windows
[11:37] <RichEd> 'lo nexu :)
[11:37] <nexu> hi
[11:40] <RichEd> okay Burgundavia point taken ... lay person question : from a dev point of view, how difficult is it to "lay a new menu skin" on top of say Edubuntu (more ...)
[11:41] <RichEd> i.e. same apps under the desktop, but different menu layout, i.e. different tree groupings of shortcuts, but pointing to same executables ?
[11:41] <RichEd> or is this what userful is ?
[11:43] <RichEd> the reason i ask is that a sidebar conversation with sabdfl at one point went into the possibility of a teacher switching all desktops into GRADE 1 view ... where the apps / content now appeared under a subject tree arrangement
[11:44] <ogra> Burgundavia, ??
[11:44] <ogra> RichEd, hi
[11:44] <RichEd> and then when the next class arrive, switch to GRADE 3 ... etc.
[11:45] <RichEd> hi ogra ... send a mail to matt re hack fest ... additional inforamtion he was not aware of in a #canoncial chat ... should support your "application" for approval
[11:45] <RichEd> information <- inforamtion
[11:45] <ogra> i think he already agreed
[11:45] <ogra> at leats thats what jammcq told me
[11:45] <ogra> he also said he's not sure if he can come himself, i havent heard anything different yet
[11:46] <RichEd> okay ... in my log search this morning, you last said you had still to ask ... my mail to matt was around whether he would be there so we could have a 3 way
[11:46] <ogra> (because you mentioned to meet him)
[11:46] <ogra> yeah
[11:46] <ogra> we all would love to see him there ;) honestly :)
[11:46] <RichEd> we spoke about that in #canonical, and he was more interested in trying to make a plan after he heard about the expanded attendee list
[11:46] <ogra> ah
[11:47] <RichEd> so my nudge may rock him over and in
[11:48] <RichEd> cc'd you on the email ... still only an outside chance he will come, but it is now floating higher in his priority list
[11:49] <ogra> i think they dont even have any "official" package for it :)
[11:50] <ogra> thats why its so important to have them there ... they shall adopt the ubuntu model ;)
[11:51] <RichEd> to avoid me embarrasing myself in front of the honourable matt ... what's the 10 second explanation for the difference between red hat & fedora ... w.r.t. LTSP ?
[11:51] <ogra> and he's right, it will be *very* close to release ... i'll have to do a lot of edubuntu work alongside while we're there
[11:51] <ogra> fedora is a community driven project
[11:51] <RichEd> i've done a wiki on the two ... but want LTSP specific points
[11:52] <ogra> redhat grabs their work, puts the commercial stuff on top and rebrands it
[11:52] <RichEd> so did fedora community help with LTSP, or RedHat organisation ?
[11:52] <RichEd> it was jim who started in no ?
[11:52] <RichEd> started it, no ?
[11:52] <ogra> (well thast a bit harsh explained but essentially what they do)
[11:52] <ogra> LTSP was never in fedora or redhat
[11:53] <ogra> if you wanted to install it, you hade to grab premade packages from ltsp.org
[11:53] <ogra> eric was the guy who merged redhat and ltsp to become k12ltsp
[11:53] <RichEd> but the LTSP that jim started (ltsp.org) originally worked with redhat o/s ?
[11:53] <ogra> (with added edu apps and many additional scripts)
[11:53] <ogra> yes
[11:53] <ogra> they did their development on top of redhat
[11:53] <RichEd> and redhat is linux, and now LTSP is moving to debian, which is our core
[11:54] <ogra> and offered rpm packages on ltsp.org
[11:54] <ogra> but to my knowledge it was never integrated into redhat/fedora
[11:54] <RichEd> rpm ? the last rpm i heard was 33 and 45 and 72 (vinyl days)
[11:54] <ogra> eric is the key part here, since he pushed for integration, found people who had the same inerest etc to get it ready for redhat
[11:54] <Burgundavia> ogra: wondering about xhcat and x-g in main and universe, that is all
[11:55] <Burgundavia> RichEd: red hat equiv to .deb
[11:55] <ogra> s/redhat/redhat based distros/
[11:55] <ogra> rpm = redhat package manager
[11:55] <RichEd> ahhh
[11:55] <Burgundavia> also used by SUSE and Mandriva, amongst others
[11:56] <ogra> Burgundavia, but you mentioned it as a decision of kubuntu ...
[11:56] <ogra> (xchat)
[11:56] <Burgundavia> no, I didn't, riched
[11:56] <Burgundavia> it
[11:56] <ogra> ah, yes
[11:56] <RichEd> here: <Hawkwind> RichEd: Heh.  I filed a wishlist bug 2 days ago on Launchpad about xchat being put into main for Kubuntu instead of xchat-gnome.  I've been told that it'll happen starting with Edgy
[11:56] <ogra> well, as long as nobody steps up to maintain x-c, i guess we'll have to live with x-g in main
[11:57] <RichEd> from #xchat 300 mins ago
[11:57] <RichEd> 30 mins
[11:57] <ogra> thats weird
[11:57] <ogra> i wouldnt see a reason wh kubuntu would pull gnome software to main :)
[11:57] <ogra> *why
[11:58] <ogra> they have their own IRC proggy ...
[11:58] <ogra> (konversation)
[11:59] <ogra> seb128 maintains it, and afaik he is in favor of xchat-gnome ...
[11:59] <ogra> but he might have reconsidered
[11:59] <nexu> is there no xchat package maintainer atm ?
[12:00] <nexu> i though evo is doing it
[12:00] <ogra> there is no specific xchat maintainer for ubuntu main atm
[12:00] <nexu> hmmm how can i become one
[12:00] <nexu> there are several small issues with the debian/rules of xchat .deb atm
[12:00] <ogra> become a motu (see #ubuntu-motu for it) and work a while in universe ...
[12:01] <nexu> yeah i'm in the motu
[12:01] <Burgundavia> nexu: first you get a chicken
[12:01] <ogra> after some time working with motu you can apply for main maintainership
[12:01] <nexu> Burgundavia: lol ? i'll just go to KFC man
[12:01] <Burgundavia> nexu: that isn't chicken
[12:02] <nexu> Burgundavia: i would believe you if i was going to the chinese
[12:02] <nexu> ogra: ok
[12:03] <Burgundavia> RichEd: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-dynamic-menus
[12:04] <ogra> i'm not sure this one will make it ...
[12:05] <RichEd> Burgundavia: echoes of our conversation :) if not for inclusion now ... good to know topic is open
[12:06] <Burgundavia> RichEd: it has been talked about for a while
[12:07] <RichEd> ogra: a great enquiry this morning ...

[12:07] <RichEd> The indicative number of machines distributed in 2300 public schools and running on Linux by the end of 2008 is 30.000. We are looking forward to at least 3 year contract with attractive conditions for upgrade and technical support, that might include FLOSS center, mirror download sites, etc.
[12:07] <RichEd>  <paste-end>
[12:07] <RichEd> in the running: Suse, Mandriva and Ubuntu
[12:07] <RichEd> off the table: fedora
[12:09] <Burgundavia> I see no advantage to Mandriva over either Suse or Ubuntu. It offers neither the most up to date software, nor the most stable
[12:09] <ogra> where is that ?
[12:09] <nexu> RichEd: in which country is taht?
[12:10] <ogra> Suse is a commercial product ...
[12:10] <nexu> mandriva doesn't even offer free version anymore afaik
[12:10] <nexu> ogra: there is opensuse.
[12:10] <Burgundavia> opensuse is too crackful, with no clear roadmap
[12:10] <nexu> well, thats why its open :)
[12:10] <RichEd> yep ... russian region ... don't want to throw specific client info about in a public channel
[12:10] <nexu> its like  a playground for NLD
[12:11] <Burgundavia> much like Fedora
[12:11] <nexu> well kinda
[12:11] <RichEd> 1st prize i think for the client is free s/w but paid support
[12:11] <nexu> fedora has more strict guidelines tho
[12:11] <RichEd> which puts us up in the top rung
[12:11] <nexu> well, personally i think mandriva is quite overpriced
[12:12] <RichEd> thining around propose: ubuntu hosting web, mail, f/w, cache, mirror etc. - commercial support contract with montreal
[12:12] <RichEd> thinking
[12:13] <ogra> s/ubuntu/canonical
[12:13] <ogra> ;)
[12:13] <RichEd> and edubuntu in schools - need to come up with a new support arrangement with montreal, maybe rope in highvoltage for some classroom level suport ?
[12:13] <ogra> ++
[12:13] <RichEd> i.e. build a model for the new contract type
[12:14] <RichEd> will be working on a mail to bizdev people ... ogra & rodarvus will be in the lop
[12:15] <RichEd> nice test case to build a proposal, identified target, identified competitors, large scale, moral support for the software founded by the cosmonaut
[12:21] <Burgundavia> well, off to catch my flight
[12:21] <Burgundavia> cya all
[12:24] <rodarvus> good morning
[12:24] <jsgotangco> rodarvus: hey!
[12:25] <maning> hello! new here.
[12:25] <ogra> morning rodarvus
[12:27] <ogra> jsgotangco, you have wite access to the website, right ?
[12:28] <rodarvus> hey jsgotangco, ogra :)
[12:28] <jsgotangco> ogra: i believe so, i dont remember...
[12:28] <jsgotangco> ogra: i think some parts yeah
[12:28] <ogra> elom just said there is a typo somewhere
 ogra: "Many people around the world excercise this right." ==. exercise
[12:29] <jsgotangco> i got 2 emails about typos
[12:29] <maning> Hello? Is Pysycache http://www.pysycache.org/en/index.html included in the edubuntu dapper distro?
[12:30] <ogra> doesnt look like anyone has packaged it
[12:31] <ogra> but there is a debian sourcepackage on the website, so it should be possible for some fellow mou
[12:31] <ogra> *motu
[12:31] <maning> it looks cool for very young kids in learning how-to-use mouse much like some of gcompris.
[12:31] <jsgotangco> ogra: what page is that? im in the cms now
[12:32] <ogra> jsgotangco, good question :)
[12:32] <jsgotangco> lol
[12:32] <ogra> front page
[12:33] <maning> this is also cool! http://www.matemania.no/matemania_m/index2.html 'though I can't understand a thing.
[12:33] <jsgotangco> fixed
[12:33] <ogra> thanks !
[12:34] <jsgotangco> im looking for the other typos
[12:36] <jsgotangco> heh! it's all highvoltage's typos!
[12:36] <jsgotangco> :D
[12:37] <highvoltage> more typos? :(
[12:38] <jsgotangco> heh its alright
[12:38] <jsgotangco> wish those who emailed said directly where it is though
[12:41] <jsgotangco> just sent email fo thanks to those who spotted
[12:41] <jsgotangco> meh
[12:42] <jsgotangco> front page has 328,000+ views
[12:42] <ogra> nice !
[12:42] <highvoltage> we should have a party when it's 1000000
[12:43] <jsgotangco> top page after homepage are screenshots
[12:43] <jsgotangco> that's a good thing :)
[12:43] <ogra> yeah
[12:44] <jsgotangco> ill do cleanup later
[12:47] <jsgotangco> we'll have to do new screenshots as well
[12:47] <ogra> as soon as we have seen some new artwork :)
[12:51] <jsgotangco> sure
[12:53] <jsgotangco> laterz
[12:58] <ajayc> RichEd: u there?
[12:59] <RichEd> yep ... did you get my mail ?
[01:00] <ajayc> yups thanks mate
[01:01] <RichEd> does it make sense ? it could be a small start, with a high profile success for all of us if we can make progress
[02:09] <sbalneav> ogra: ping
[02:16] <sbalneav> ogra: pingie 2
[02:17] <sbalneav> ok, gotta get ready for woek, be on later.
[02:33] <RichEd> hello mr schooltool :) nice to see you
[02:33] <RichEd> just sent you an email 10 mins ago
[02:35] <RichEd> highvoltage: either you were ignoring me or you timed out on me ;) i have a window full of talking to myself
[02:35] <highvoltage> RichEd: it seems like it's the latter
[02:36] <highvoltage> RichEd: can you copy.paste it again in that window?
[02:36] <RichEd> will do ... bit of a ramble, but can you give me 5 mins now to get some things across
[03:09] <cbx33> ping ogra
[03:09] <cbx33> finished kill on scp
[03:09] <cbx33> with auto refreshing proc list too :p
[03:09] <highvoltage> cool :)
[03:10] <cbx33> working on vnc next
[03:10] <cbx33> I need some bzr advice
[03:10] <cbx33> I have a branch
[03:10] <cbx33> which I publish via rsync on the net
[03:10] <cbx33> I now have another machine and I want to work on the same branch
[03:10] <cbx33> so two machines working on the same branch
[03:11] <cbx33> with it being published via rsyncing to a web server
[03:11] <cbx33> any ideas?
[03:15] <bimberi> cbx33: you might recall me mentioning "the cacophony of the playground" last week - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSounds
[03:18] <cbx33> bimberi, yes
[03:41] <sbalneav> Morning all
[03:41] <sbalneav> ogra: ping
[03:42] <ogra> sbalneav, pong
[03:42] <ogra> pitti did a code review
[03:43] <ogra> so we have the first of many iterations until it suits him :)
[03:43] <sbalneav> Oh, cool.  I liked the way he did the spawn in his pmount, so I "stole" it :)
[03:43] <sbalneav> Well, sure.  What's he suggest?
[03:43] <ogra> many things :)
[03:44] <ogra> he starts off with missing gpl/copyright statement :P
[03:44] <ogra> then we shouldnt have the i18n stuff in the headers ... sinc ewe dont/wont use them in such a backend proggy
[03:45] <ogra> the usage message needs to use %s instead of %d
[03:45] <ogra> he doesnt like the {become,drop}_root() functions at all ... we shall either drop them completely or only use them for the getopt
[03:46] <sbalneav> Oh, did I get a %d in there? heh, typing too fast.  Didn't check the useage message :)
[03:46] <ogra> well, most stuff is trivial ...
[03:46] <ogra> fork() shudl rather be pid_t pid = fork()
[03:46] <sbalneav> Well, we NEED to become root to make the directory and do the mount.
[03:47] <ogra> between execl and exit of the mount command there should be a perror
[03:47] <ogra> no, we are root already, the binary is suid root, isnt it ;)
[03:47] <sbalneav> heh, well, if he doesn't like that bit, he should look at pmount/utils.c where I stole it from :)
[03:48] <ogra> so we *could* drop privileges *if* we fix the {become,drop}_root() functions, but we could leave that out completely as well he said
[03:48] <ogra> same fork() comment for the unmount stuff
[03:49] <ogra> in main() is a declared but unused int len = 0
[03:49] <sbalneav> just becase the binary's got the setuid flag set, doesn't mean you've become root.  It just means you can RAISE your privs.
[03:49] <ogra> yep
[03:49] <ogra> but uid will be 0
[03:49] <ogra> (no sure if we'd need to raise euid
[03:50] <ogra> )
[03:50] <sbalneav> and this will be running as the user, correct?  So the userid will be non-root.
[03:50] <sbalneav> gimme 2 secs, work ping
[03:50] <ogra> case 'u' should have umount = 1 instead of umount++
[03:51] <ogra> and the "unknown option" string is missing the actual option :)
[03:51] <ogra> for: if (optind < argc) he asks if it shouldnt be < argc-1
[03:52] <ogra> he asks for s/PATH_MAX/sizeof(mediamount)/
[03:52] <ogra> (everywhere)
[03:52] <ogra> according to him thats more robust
[03:52] <ogra> we should check pwent->pw_name for slashes
[03:53] <ogra> and we shouldnt chown the dir we create, mount will make it inherit the ownership from the /tmp mount
[03:53] <ogra> thast it
[03:53] <ogra> not much for a typical pitti review ;)
[03:54] <ogra> (he's a nitpicker, but thats why he is our security guy)
[03:54] <ogra> ;)
[03:55] <ogra> oh, and he promised to do the next review in english, so i dont need to translater everything :P
[03:55] <ogra> *translate
[03:56] <ogra> i can write a patch during the day if you want that fixes most of the complaints ...
[03:58] <sbalneav> nah, no problem, gimme 10 minutes, I'll fix things up.
[03:58] <ogra> i know pittis reviews are quite shocking mostly :)
[04:01] <cbx33> ogra the bzr repo is updated and kill functionality added, but beware the working tree that is on the page is not updated
[04:04] <cbx33> ogra, the proclist updates too :p
[04:04] <ogra> cool
[04:04] <cbx33> even when you have selected a process
[04:04] <cbx33> the updates keep happening
[04:05] <ogra> without cncelling the selection ?
[04:05] <cbx33> yes
[04:05] <ogra> *cancelling
[04:05] <ogra> nice !
[04:05] <cbx33> I knew you were gonna ask that
[04:05] <ogra> :)
[04:05] <cbx33> I wondered why you didn't have an updating list
[04:05] <cbx33> then I tried it and found out why
[04:05] <ogra> well, thats usual behavior for gtk lists
[04:05] <cbx33> but I got round it
[04:06] <cbx33> I hope
[04:06] <cbx33> ;)
[04:06] <ogra> sure, you can get around it ... but part from the userlist populating (which is totally broken) it was all WIP
[04:06] <ogra> *apart
[04:06] <cbx33> heheh
[04:06] <cbx33> well take a look when you have a sec
[04:06] <ogra> will do
[04:06] <cbx33> if you're happy with my work, I'll have a go at completing the spec
[04:06] <cbx33> wit ha little help
[04:07] <ogra> the spec is complete
[04:07] <cbx33> implementation
[04:07] <ogra> its pending approval until mdz has some spare time to look over it and approve it
[04:07] <cbx33> ah i see
[04:10] <cbx33> I made a quick hack on my version so I could test it with me logged in without an ltsp server
[04:15] <cbx33> my virtual machine has gone all woogy
[04:16] <cbx33> all the network interfaces are broken
[04:16] <cbx33> and I don;t know why
[04:17] <cbx33> right I'll brb switching machine
[04:30] <sbalneav> ogra: ping again
[04:35] <ogra> sbalneav, pong :)
[04:36] <sbalneav> hey hey
[04:37] <sbalneav> OK, I've got just about everything done, except the suid stuff.
[04:37] <sbalneav> I'm unclear as to how I should be doing it.  I mean, I need to be able to raise privs, so I'm not sure how he expects that to work.
[04:38] <sbalneav> Heh, I wasn't expecting you to submit it so fast, I hadn't given it a once over yet. :)
[04:38] <sbalneav> let me mail you what I've done...
[04:39] <sbalneav> Whoops, still don't have a gpl thing in there.
[04:39] <sbalneav> meh, I still need to package.
[04:40] <ogra> damned, my net seems to go flaky again
[04:40] <sbalneav> did you get my last 4 lines?
[04:40] <ogra> yep
[04:40] <sbalneav> ok
[04:40] <sbalneav> just sent it.
[04:40] <ogra> just gets tons of DUPs while pinging my router
[04:40] <ogra> but it seems not to break completely
[04:41] <ogra> pitti wrote:
[04:41] <ogra> Das bringt nix.  Allerdings muss fuer den mount()-Aufruf
[04:41] <ogra> sowohl die reale als auch die effektive uid 0 sein.
[04:41] <ogra> i'll try to translate it literally
[04:41] <ogra> (referring to become_root())
[04:42] <ogra> that doesnt help. usually you want to keep the real uid and set the effective one to root. for the mount() call you will need to have both set to 0 though
[04:43] <ogra> also for drop_root():
[04:43] <ogra> Dito. BTW, Du weisst, dass drop_root() vielleicht
[04:43] <ogra> Programmierfehler aufdeckt, aber das Programm keinen Deut 'sicherer'
[04:43] <ogra> macht, ja?
[04:44] <ogra> same as for become_root(), but you know that dror_root() probably exposes programming errors but makes the program not more secure at all ?
[04:44] <ogra> *drop_root() indeed
[04:44] <ogra> does that make sense to you ?
[04:45] <ogra> when i taled directly to him he said we could as well drop both these functions
[04:45] <ogra> *talked
[04:45] <sbalneav> OK, so if I get what he's saying: only promote the euid for the mkdir, and just the real uid only for the mount call.
[04:46] <ogra> no, both for the mount call
[04:46] <ogra> but we wont need the euid for mkdir
[04:46] <sbalneav> Drop the functions?  What, and just inline the calls to setuid?
[04:46] <ogra> well, only the mount call
[04:47] <sbalneav> We wont need the euid for mkdir?
[04:47] <ogra> according to him we dont ( i didnt try :) )
[04:47] <sbalneav> Ah, pitti's answeing me in the channel.  I'll ask directly
[04:55] <cbx33> what does it mean when I do a networking restart and it says error, no such device
[04:55] <cbx33> it was working fine yesterday morning
[04:55] <cbx33> these are two vmware machines
[05:21] <LaserJock> cbx33: cool,re scp
[05:22] <cbx33> heheh
[05:24] <sbalneav> ogra: get my "shake shake shake" mail? :)
[05:25] <LaserJock> lol
[05:30] <RichEd> hello LaserJock :)
[05:30] <lecaros> hi all
[05:30] <RichEd> how's the light shield kilt ?
[05:32] <jsgotangco> light shield kit?
[05:33] <ogra> HAHAHA
[05:34] <sbalneav> You laughing at my lyrics or my code? :)
[05:35] <ogra> not your code indeed
[05:35] <ogra> :)
[05:36] <LaserJock> RichEd: hi
[05:36] <RichEd> js ... i presume a LaserJock doe not wear normal tartan ... i'm guessing he needs something stronger to protect his weaponry ;)
[05:36] <LaserJock> RichEd: yes, exactly
[05:38] <RichEd> LaserJock: just a tickle to let you know that Burgandavia & I were chatting about custom menus earlier ... and your name came up ... along with a link ref: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-dynamic-menus
[05:39] <RichEd> it's something i have ben specualating about for a while now, and glad to see it is becoming a reality
[05:39] <RichEd> been not ben
[05:39] <LaserJock> heh, well hopefully it will become a reality
[05:39] <LaserJock> it's not as trivial as I thought ;-)
[05:40] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:40] <jsgotangco> its not really as simple as it looks
[05:40] <ogra> well
[05:40] <jsgotangco> but KDE makes it very very easy!
[05:40] <ogra> i think you worked it out quite well already
[05:41] <ogra> its just that i wont have the time to implement it ...
[05:41] <ogra> (for edgy)
[05:41] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:41] <cbx33> ogra, do you have any info on the vnc stuff for scp?
[05:41] <RichEd> no specific actions ... must wanted to let you know i think it is an important offering from a classrom perspective ... but needs to be done in such a way that we can give the framework & format to the teacher / department, for them to configure themselves.
[05:41] <ogra> but we'll do one less spec for edgy+1 and keep that one ;)
[05:41] <RichEd> which is probably your thinking already ... first to admit i am joining in at the end of a thread here
[05:42] <ogra> yes, it needs a gui tool
[05:42] <ogra> but thats the least of the problems
[05:42] <LaserJock> well, I'm going to play around with .menu files and see what we can do
[05:42] <ogra> doing the actual merge stuff if a student is in different groups etc is the hard part
[05:42] <RichEd> ogra: or an easy intuitive text edit ... like an xml tree ?
[05:43] <ogra> never !
[05:43] <ogra> we dont want our teachers to see the commandline if possible :)
[05:43] <RichEd> was about to say: lots of free GUI editors to edit XML trees
[05:43] <ogra> (indeed thats whishful thinking as long as we dont have things like ltsp-manager in place ..)
[05:43] <RichEd> (well played with many in windows)
[05:44] <sbalneav> ogra: is ltsp-manager targetted for edgy?
[05:44] <ogra> but if its avoidable with a 100 line proggy the time to quickly write it should always be there
[05:44] <ogra> sbalneav, i initially did, but i dont think i'll make it ...
[05:44] <ogra> too much on my plate
[05:44] <sbalneav> Can I help?
[05:45] <LaserJock> ogra: what tool will teachers use to assign students to groups?
[05:45] <ogra> mdz ust made a call that we should give a realistic estimate which specs we can finish in time for sept 7th (feature freeze)
[05:45] <ogra> i'll surely have to drop some
[05:45] <cbx33> ogra, is this including scp?
[05:45] <jsgotangco> great pressure!
[05:45] <ogra> no
[05:45] <ogra> scp will be on my list
[05:45] <cbx33> because it hasn't been approved?
[05:45] <cbx33> no i meant to get done in time
[05:45] <ogra> as well as swapserver and the ldm enhancements
[05:46] <cbx33> like a reset button in ldm :p
[05:46] <ogra> localdev should be done by the end of the week (i hope)
[05:46] <ogra> cbx33, it doesnt matter if it got approved before ... if its implementted and approved at release time /freeze time, all is fine
[05:47] <ogra> scp is high prio
[05:47] <ogra> i cant drop high prio targets
[05:47] <sbalneav> ogra: if you mail me what you've got so far, I'm keen to help with whatever you need to get the job done.
[05:47] <RichEd> thilly thimple IRC question: if i want to meet with 2 other people on IRC tomorrow, how do we make our own channel / shared message window
[05:47] <ogra> sbalneav, apt-get install ltsp-manager or apt-get source ltsp-manager
[05:47] <sbalneav> just /join #your-own-channel
[05:47] <LaserJock> Sept. 7th is Feature Freeze?!?
[05:47] <cbx33> ok, well if you give me all you got on vnc i'll try to get that moving, exec too
[05:47] <ogra> the actual feature (lts.conf editing isnt implemented yet)
[05:48] <sbalneav> Do I need an edgy machine for it?
[05:48] <ogra> and the gui isnt adjusted to the new features we have
[05:48] <ogra> its written on dapper
[05:48] <RichEd> ta sbalneav :  thought it might be that easy, but wasn't sure ... didn't want to make an arrangement unless I knew I could host.
[05:49] <ogra> so it should work on both ... the differences will only be in the package dependencys, shouldnt affect the code
[05:50] <sbalneav> ok, don't seem to be able to install it in dapper, not there.  So I'll have to grab it manually from the edgy archives.
[05:50] <LaserJock> ogra: when is the disto sprint?
[05:50] <ogra> its in universe in dapper
[05:51] <ogra> LaserJock, starting monday
[05:51] <sbalneav> ?
[05:51] <sbalneav> hm
[05:51] <LaserJock> ogra: hmm
[05:51] <ogra> sbalneav,
[05:51] <ogra> err
[05:51] <LaserJock> ok, I'll try to do an edubuntu-dynamic-menu sprint at the same time ;-)
[05:51] <ogra> i *thought* i uploaded it
[05:51] <ogra> heh
[05:52] <ogra> sbalneav, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/
[06:07] <sbalneav> ogra: got the bzr archive.  I'll hack some tonight.  As well, have you got the cdpinger stuff in hand, or do you want me to hack on that tonight as well?
[06:07] <ogra> i'll do it
[06:07] <ogra> got it on my list for this evening
[06:09] <bddebian> Howdy
[06:32] <sbalneav> How is it you request ops again in a channel here in freenode?  I'm on the ops list, and I'm about 2 seconds off of wanting to kickban an annoying prat in #ltsp, but I can't remember how I gain ops and kick someone (since the last time I had to do it was 5 years ago :))
[06:34] <ogra> sbalneav,
[06:35] <ogra>  /msg chanserv op #ltsp
[06:36] <sbalneav> ah, then what, /kickban #someguyfrombrazilwhoswearstoomuch?
[06:36] <ogra> phew
[06:36] <sbalneav> If he does it again, I'll give him one warning, then I toast im
[06:36] <sbalneav> ooops.
[06:36] <sbalneav> Godlike powers there for a sec?
[06:36] <sbalneav> :)
[06:44] <ogra> well, i had to try it :)
[06:44] <ogra> i have no clue about the commands for kick or ban, but xchat has a context menu for every user in the list ;)
[06:45] <ogra> but he seems clamed now
[06:45] <ogra> *calmed
[06:45] <bddebian>  /kick <foo>
[06:45] <ogra> well, i usually dont need to :)
[06:52] <bddebian> C'mon, kick me harder ;-P
[06:53] <sbalneav> oops, what's deop?
[06:53] <sbalneav> it's not deop :)
[06:55] <ogra> -op ?
[06:56] <ogra> (right click yourself in the userlist ;) )
[06:56] <ogra> there is an action menu
[06:57] <sbalneav> meh, it'll go away when I log off.
[06:57] <sbalneav> Let the green dot be his warning....
[06:57] <sbalneav> OF DOOM!
[06:59] <ogra> hehe
[07:27] <ogra> cbx33,
[07:28] <ogra> CONGRATS !
[07:28] <ogra> Subject: 	Accepted gisomount 1.0.1-0ubuntu1 (source)
[07:28] <ogra> Date: 	Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:15:18 -0000  (19:15 CEST)
[07:29] <cbx33> w000000000000000000000000000000t
[07:29] <cbx33> finally
[07:30] <ogra> :)
[07:31] <cbx33> ogra, gota a spare sec to discuss scp?
[07:32] <ogra> sure
[07:32] <cbx33> I've done kill
[07:32] <cbx33> was going to take a look at vnc or execute
[07:32] <cbx33> do you have any background info, or shal I start scouring the web
[07:35] <ogra> the vnc code should be usable as is if you just remove the comments
[07:35] <cbx33> ok
[07:36] <cbx33> what else is there to do with vnc?
[07:38] <ogra> the thin client side... see the spec
[07:38] <cbx33> ok
[07:38] <ogra> x11vnc needs an optional initscript in the package ...
[07:38] <cbx33> ah ok
[07:39] <ogra> then someone needs to determine the network load with it running on an ltsp connection
[07:39] <cbx33> right
[07:39] <ogra> and find useable defaults
[07:39] <ogra> try the code, i'm not sure in which state it is
[07:39] <cbx33> ok
[07:40] <cbx33> and what about execute
[07:40] <ogra> but it worked at some point ...
[07:40] <cbx33> I was just searching the web
[07:40] <cbx33> for some solutions
[07:40] <cbx33> but couldn't find anyting useful
[07:40] <ogra> execute ?
[07:40] <cbx33> yeh
[07:41] <ogra> what d you mean ?
[07:41] <ogra> *do
[07:41] <cbx33> Execution of programs in the users session(s)
[07:42] <cbx33> are is then intetnion that it will load on all desktops?
[07:43] <ogra> did you read the spec ?
[07:43] <cbx33> yes reading now
[07:43] <ogra> it has come code snippets and a very detailed description of the implementation
[07:43] <cbx33> yes I can see
[07:44] <cbx33> ok, I'll go have a look and see what I can get working
[07:44] <cbx33> I take it the listener service is not built yet
[07:44] <ogra> nothing is built yet
[07:44] <ogra> in that area
[07:45] <cbx33> is there a restriction on the language used to writ the listener service?
[07:45] <ogra> i think there is a hidden execute button in the ui
[07:45] <cbx33> yes there is
[07:45] <ogra> it should be python since the rest of scp is python as well
[07:46] <cbx33> ok
[07:46] <cbx33> so using python-dbus
[07:46] <ogra> and dbus/python is a perfect pair
[07:46] <ogra> yeps
[07:46] <cbx33> ok I'll investigate
[07:46] <pygi> cbx33, sending movie over dbus is always a good idea
[07:46] <ogra> only if its raw data ...
[07:47] <pygi> :)
[07:48] <ogra> cbx33, if you want some code example look at the willowng source, its very clean
[07:48] <cbx33> ok
[07:48] <ogra> yep, thats very good as well
[07:49] <Amaranth> sending movie over dbus == every other dbus user will stab you
[07:49] <pygi> Amaranth, nah ^_^
[07:49] <ogra> i guess before your desktop just dies :)
[07:50] <pygi> eh ^_^
[07:57] <cbx33> 0_O
[07:59] <cbx33> so, the main scp package sets up a dbus connection
[07:59] <cbx33> and leaves messages in the "bus"
[07:59] <cbx33> then the client machines make connections to that particular bus, and receive the messages, only if they are addressed the them?
[08:00] <cbx33> am I getting this?
[08:00] <cbx33> they talk about methods in the tutorial
[08:19] <ogra> no
[08:19] <ogra> there are no "machines" involved
[08:19] <ogra> everything runs locally on the server
[08:28] <pawsilver> Hi I get this message when reloading in Synaptic Package manager "E: Malformed line 22 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list (dist)
[08:28] <pawsilver>  E: Unable to lock the list directory"   help????
[08:30] <sbalneav> pawsilver: Can you paste your line 22 in file /etc/apt/sources.list?
[08:30] <sbalneav> Maybe it just needs a touchup.
[08:38] <sbalneav> pawsilver: Still there?
[08:41] <pawsilver> hi there
[08:41] <pawsilver> I found a source generator on Ubuntu and paste the source in the etc/apt/source.list
[08:42] <pawsilver> Its working thanx
[08:44] <sbalneav> K, np
[09:03] <Petaris> I seem to have broken my gksu/gksudo some how, any one know if there is a good way to fix it?
[09:04] <Petaris> for example, is there a hidden file/dir in my home dir that I can blow away to reset it or something?
[09:05] <Petaris> I did an ls -al in my home but didn't find anything telling
[09:38] <sbalneav> ogra: Still awake, oh mighty Teutonic Open Source Warrior?
[09:43] <cbx33> sbalneav, TOSW heheh
[09:43] <cbx33> ogra, i didn't mean machines in that sense
[09:47] <ogra> sbalneav, whats up ?
[09:47] <sbalneav> hey!  before you trundle off for the night, can you tarball what you've got for the localdevs stuff, so I can play with what you've been doing?
[09:48] <ogra> sure, i'll have to fix some small stuff still, after the TB meeting ... dont worry, i'll be around long tonight
[09:49] <sbalneav> I sent off the program to you and pitti.  Later tonight I'll properly "gnuify" it with an autoconf etc.
[09:49] <cbx33> ogra, did you say there was dbus in willowng?
[09:50] <cbx33> ah i see it
[09:50] <cbx33> sorry was looking in the willowng
[09:50] <cbx33> it's in willowng-config
[09:50] <Amaranth> the server is in willowng, the client is willowng-config
[10:02] <cbx33> Amaranth, where does the server do it's dbus stuff,
[10:02] <cbx33> bear in mind I'm VERY nerw to dbus
[10:02] <cbx33> got some pointers?
[10:03] <Amaranth> cbx33: that would be dbusinterface.py :)
Why does applying for aid for college have to be so complicated?</random>
[10:03] <cbx33> heheh
[10:03] <cbx33> Amaranth, you're a genius they should be paying you to go
[10:04] <Amaranth> :P
[10:04] <Amaranth> I just promise not to correct the teacher too much and he gives me at least a C whether I do work or not. ;)
[10:05] <pygi> Amaranth, lol
[10:05] <cbx33> hehe
[10:05] <cbx33> Amaranth, do you have a few seconds?
[10:05] <cbx33> could I pm you?
[10:05] <Amaranth> err, sure
[10:18] <cbx33> pygi, gisomount is in universe :D:D:D
[10:18] <pygi> congrats cbx33
[10:18] <cbx33> first app/package
[10:25] <ogra> sbalneav, which is the final version, the one attached to the dance mail ? or the one before ?
[10:26] <sbalneav> The dancing email
[10:26] <sbalneav> :)
[10:26] <sbalneav> It works for me
[10:27] <cbx33> ogra, just a quickie
[10:27] <cbx33> presumably user logins, I'll call them clients, will poll the dbus for new events?
[10:28] <cbx33> ogra, I'm goign to start on the dbus code tonight, I understand it now, pretty easy really
[10:28] <ogra> sbalneav, oh, i just see pitti answered
[10:29] <ogra> cbx33, the client app should be started by gnome session and listen for the events that come down the users session dbus
[10:29] <cbx33> ah right ok
[10:29] <sbalneav> ok, looking now.
[10:29] <cbx33> I'm going to start by programming the server dbus
[10:30] <cbx33> with the four messages in the spec
[10:30] <cbx33> is there docs anywhere on how to iface with the users session dbus?
[10:30] <ogra> scp runs as root and sends the events to the *system* bus which then forwards them to the session busses of all selected users
[10:30] <cbx33> yup I get it now
[10:31] <sbalneav> Ah, I see his point on the umount.  Okeydokee.  I can fix that.
[10:31] <cbx33> I just need to know how to interface with the session bus and I should be able to complete that bit
[10:31] <sbalneav> ogra: for now, continue on with the scripting, and I'll address Martin's (excellent) points.
[10:32] <ogra> cbx33, well, a lot of apps do it ... so it shouldnt be to hard to find out ... theer is also a link to the dbus spec
[10:32] <cbx33> ok thanks
[10:32] <ogra> hal does it, NM does it
[10:32] <sbalneav> it shouldn't change the normal mode operation of the program, we're only addressing failure mode.
[10:32] <ogra> yep
[10:33] <cbx33> ogra do you envisage sending an exec message followed by a notify message to say which machine the exec applies to?
[10:33] <ogra> i'll adjust the scripts and the cdpinger ... will tar it up in the end ad upload to people.ubuntu.com
[10:33] <cbx33> or am i misunderstanding the spec
[10:33] <ogra> no machines involved ;)
[10:33] <cbx33> ogra, ok CLIENTS :p
[10:34] <cbx33> you know what I mean :p
[10:34] <ogra> you send a user list as first message
[10:34] <cbx33> ok
[10:34] <ogra> (the selection from the gui)
[10:34] <cbx33> then and exec
[10:34] <ogra> then a command
[10:34] <cbx33> or a kill
[10:34] <ogra> yep
[10:34] <cbx33> right
[10:34] <cbx33> is the kill message supposed to be a replacement for the os.kill implemantion I did today
[10:34] <ogra> if $USER is in the list, the client app waits for the next message ...
[10:35] <ogra> ouch
[10:35] <ogra> thats redundant
[10:36] <cbx33> ogra is the user session dbus common to all sessions?
[10:36] <ogra> it has a socket for each user
[10:36] <cbx33> ogra, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, well it works as is
[10:36] <cbx33> ogra, I was presuming the server would listen to the USER list and EXEC/KILL and then only post to the relevant users sessions socket?
[10:36] <ogra> or it creates a socket for the session its started in is the better explanation
[10:37] <ogra> no
[10:37] <ogra> scp just drops the message on the system bus
[10:37] <ogra> it doesnt connect to any sockets
[10:38] <ogra> the the client app must pick it up
[10:39] <cbx33> ok
[10:39] <cbx33> i think I get it
[10:39] <cbx33> I'll start experimenting
[10:41] <cbx33> switching machine
[10:41] <cbx33> brb
[10:44] <sbalneav> Pitti's a smart dude.  I don't think another user can unmount someone else's dir because we're adding the userid to the mount, but it's a good point anyway, and we should do the check.    I'll be on later, but I expect you'll be in bed by then.  We'll see you tomorrow.
[10:44] <sbalneav> Good luck!
[10:57] <cbx33> ping ogra
[10:57] <cbx33> one last question :p
[10:58] <cbx33> remote_object = bus.get_object("org.designfu.SampleService", "/SomeObject")
[10:58] <cbx33> iface = dbus.Interface(remote_object, "org.designfu.SampleInterface")
[10:58] <cbx33> what's the difference between remote_object and iface?
[10:58] <cbx33> because they then use methods from the same class
[10:58] <cbx33> hello_reply_list = remote_object.HelloWorld("Hello from example-client.py!", dbus_interface = "org.designfu.SampleInterface")
[10:58] <cbx33> hello_reply_tuple = iface.GetTuple()
[10:58] <cbx33> hello_reply_dict = iface.GetDict()
[10:59] <cbx33> are they just two ways of referenceing the methods in the class?
[11:21] <cbx33> woohoo
[11:21] <cbx33> I got dbus working :D
[11:22] <ogra> :)
[11:22] <ogra> and we have the coolest localdev implementation evah !
[11:23] <pygi> ogra, congrats ;)
[11:23] <ogra> i need to do some small adjustments as scott has to do as well on the suid wrapper and we're done :)
[11:24] <ogra> next release i'll add audiocd support *g*
[11:25] <ogra> the nice extra is that it will work on all desktops :)
[11:26] <pygi> I hope to have libburn release ready in 15 days
[11:26] <pygi> but I have a feeling that won't be the case
[11:26] <cbx33> ogra, I have working scp server code
[11:27] <ogra> libburn ate a lot of developers already
[11:27] <cbx33> i just need to do the session interface
[11:27] <ogra> cbx33, cool !!
[11:27] <cbx33> I'm still a little stuck on that one
[11:27] <pygi> ogra, hopefully not me ^_^
[11:27] <cbx33> I'm going to include my examples in me bzr repo for now
[11:27] <cbx33> whilst I'm testing and till it gets integrated
[11:28] <ogra> pygi, i have a mail somewhere from 1999 where the initial developer asked if i would be intrested in helping :)
[11:28] <pygi> ogra, nice ^_^
[11:29] <pygi> We've made some good progress tho so :)
[11:29] <ogra> at some oint mxpxpod took over libburn an coaster ... but never got it done either
[11:29] <ogra> *point
[11:29] <pygi> whoever that mxpxpod is :) coaster dissapeared ... there are no visible signs of it anymore
[11:29] <ogra> yep, he dropped it
[11:30] <ogra> we had an experimental package in universe in hoary i think
[11:30] <pygi> I could use experimental package for libburn-on-cdrecord layer in edgy, but that's probably not doable :)
[11:30] <pygi> and stable release won't be ready in time to include it (in 15 days)
[11:31] <cbx33> ogra, do we basically pass a message to the session bus like "exec blah" and it runs it?
[11:32] <ogra> well, its not urgently necessary that the client interface listens on the session bus, should as well be possible through listening on the system bus ... as long as the message gets through an the ACL is right
[11:33] <cbx33> even the system bus
[11:33] <cbx33> I don't know how to interface with it
[11:33] <cbx33> I'm just going to download network manager to see how it does it
[11:35] <ogra> seen that ? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSounds
[11:35] <ogra> there you got your overlay to mix into the ubuntu sound ;)
[11:36] <cbx33> excellent
[11:39] <cbx33> that'll be in my updates
[11:39] <cbx33> :D
[11:40] <ogra> :D
[11:42] <cbx33> ok, ogra
[11:42] <cbx33> I've connected to the system bus
[11:43] <cbx33> but i still can't find the methods aarrgggghhh
[11:51] <lucasvo> cbx33: what for do you use dbus for?
[11:51] <Petaris> later
[11:51] <cbx33> I need to use it to execute a process on a users session
[11:52] <cbx33> argh I gotta get to bed,
[11:52] <cbx33> if you know anything about it lucasvo a link to a tut would be great
[11:52] <cbx33> petesavage@ubuntu.com


[11:52] <ailo> Got my internet working. And I'm halway at putting together some machines for testing.
[11:52] <ailo> len-dt: Have a look https://plus.google.com/u/0/112189543347229003538/postsv
[11:53] <ailo> I'm also going to add a notebook and a netbook to the mix
[13:12] <len-dt> ailo, What kinds of test cases do you have in mind?
[13:17] <len-dt> I am looking at testing ulatencyd. It should be able to allow putting the audio programs in a low/no swappiness group while leaving other things normal.
[13:49] <ailo> len-dt: I was thinking we do something systematic with testing later. There are some things that you need to have several test cases for, in order to determine what they do in general
[13:49] <ailo> Not only for one machine
[13:49] <len-dt> ailo, yup.
[13:51] <ailo> len-dt: I can offer you ssh access later. Trying to get the thtpd server working, but my gateway isn't very configurable when it comes to dhcp, so when I try to boot with network, I get the gateways dhcp, but when I get to the desktop, I get the dhcp from my server
[13:51] <len-dt> My thoughts have been about defining what an audio program is.
[13:51] <ailo> Sounds deep
[13:52] <ailo> len-dt: What for?
[13:52] <len-dt> I am thinking that I use more than one workspace/desktop when I do audio work.
[13:52] <len-dt> so it seems that the workspace switcher is now audio software
[13:53] <len-dt> What other non-audio SW becomes important in the audio workflow?
[13:53] <ailo> I think it's impossible to determine, and we should not determine what software the user should or will combine
[13:53] <ailo> For whatever purpose
[13:54] <ailo> But let's say the user is asked during install what they will be using the OS for..
[13:54] <len-dt> ailo,  So swappiness needs to be zero for audio work.
[13:54] <ailo> Choosing audio implies you won't be using it to edit movies
[13:55] <ailo> I'm more in the line that the OS should be configured to work for everyone
[13:55] <len-dt> Does someone who is editting movies what their work to swap out?
[13:56] <ailo> Right now, it's very fast for audio, in general. There are some machines that have problems. Some machines that have problems, we don't know why even
[13:56] <ailo> I'm pretty far away from forming any opinions on swap right now though
[13:56] <ailo> And there's no hurry
[13:57] <ailo> We should put up a plan, document, test, and find out what the data says
[13:57] <len-dt> ailo, Yes, even my old machines don't run out of CPU cycles. They run out of memory though.
[14:00] <len-dt> ailo, why are people trying to install US 11.04?
[14:01]  * len-dt was just checking backlog on #ubuntustudio.
[14:02] <ailo> Probably a misprint
[14:02] <ailo> .04 sounds right. 11.10 would make more sense than 11.04, if someone hadn't realized a new one was out
[14:03] <len-dt> Could be. I thought I had tried install without net without that problem.
[14:03] <ailo> Just realized I need to set up port forwarding for my tftp. Maybe I got it now..
[14:10] <len-dt> ailo, I get the sense that in general people expect the odd glitch while doing audio work.
[14:11] <len-dt> That the odd xrun may show up that seems not to be explained.
[14:14] <ailo> Don't know. I don't read a lot about random xruns though
[14:15] <ailo> Maybe people don't admit it, or figure it was something explainable
[14:18] <len-dt> ailo, I think I am going to break my tweak mode stuff out of the workflow stuff and make it separate.
[14:19] <len-dt> I think it is worthwhile being able to make a quiet machine while recording/performing
[14:22] <len-dt> I think no matter what machine a person has, they are likely to to push it's limits at some time.
[14:24] <len-dt> I would like those limits to be as broad as possible.
[14:33] <len-dt> ailo, I think there are a number of people who may have kernel module issues.
[14:34] <len-dt> Some people just go and buy another machine, but I think that is not always the best answer.
[14:39] <astraljava> It is if they give me the old one.
[14:39]  * astraljava hasn't bought a new computer since '97.
[14:40]  * len-dt has many donated machines too.
[14:53] <ailo> My standpoint on tweaks is that only those should be made default that absolutely will improve something for someone, and will absolutely not make things worse for someone else. Any tweaks other than those should be considered trouble shooting configs
[14:53] <ailo> Since most machines works OOTB as it is, most tweaks are either not that important, or good for troubleshooting
[14:54] <ailo> For those that have real issues, any help is gold
[14:55] <ailo> So, troubleshooting configs are great, if they do solve problems for people
[14:56] <ailo> If adjusting swap is best for everyone, by default, then add that to default settings. If it would make things worse for someone, while solve someone else problems, add it as an option
[14:57] <ailo> And just make sure it is clear what the options do, so that people don't think they will benefit from all of them
[14:58] <ailo> But this is still far from where we are at now
[14:58] <len-dt> I would like to find some memory for my old machine.
[14:58] <ailo> First, test. Then, on basis of the data, figure out how to implement it, if needed
[14:58] <len-dt> I do think that swappiness set to 10 instead of 60 would probably bo good for everyone.
[14:59] <ailo> len-dt: You could write something up about that on the wiki. I still need to go through that myself, in order to know why
[15:02] <len-dt> check out shnatsel's site. It has some good thoughts and a link that explains it really well.
[15:02] <shnatsel> who summons me?
[15:03] <ailo> len-dt: We will still need to document everything we do, and explain why something is good/bad, if we are to suggest changes
[15:03] <len-dt> You were just mentioned... I was pointing to your site.
[15:03] <ailo> I wouldn't want to do the same work twice, if sufficient testing already has been made
[15:03] <shnatsel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwapFaq - this is the current state
[15:04] <shnatsel> I think you should contact the kernel team and ask them why they set swappiness to 60 by default
[15:04] <len-dt> swappiness 60 is great for most servers or for a development machine. but low swappiness makes for a much nicer desktop experience.
[15:05] <shnatsel> they've got different kernel packages for desktop and server anyway, so that's not an excuse
[15:05] <len-dt> but swappiness still defaults to 60.
[15:06] <shnatsel> so let's go ahead and ask why it's still that way
[15:06] <shnatsel> also, Ubiquity enables swap to zram when no swap partition is created or found on the system
[15:06] <len-dt> From the page you listed "The default setting in Ubuntu is swappiness=60. Reducing the default value of swappiness will probably improve overall performance for a typical Ubuntu desktop installation. A value of swappiness=10 is recommended"
[15:07] <shnatsel> and I've just discovered a "zram-config" package very similar to my "zramswap-enabler", gotta merge the implementations
[15:09] <shnatsel> my "site", in case you're wondering: http://shnatsel.blogspot.com/ But you'd better read the "Improving OOTB performance" thread on Ubuntu Studio mailing list, it has more real experimental data
[15:09] <len-dt> shnatsel, if I have both zram and a swap partition, is it possible to have some applications use the zram and others default to disk?
[15:10] <shnatsel> len-dt: no idea. Check cgroups swap documentation on TLDP
[15:10] <shnatsel> or elsewhere
[16:00] <len-dt> ailo, Interesting, if I connect a USB audio IF, I can only set latency as low as the internal audio IF.
[16:00] <len-dt> But, if I turn the internal IF off in PA, I can now set the USB IF lower.
[16:02] <ailo> len-dt: Wonder if the latency is really set lower then
[16:02] <len-dt> Unfortunately I can not turn the internal audio IF off in  my bios
[16:03] <ailo> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that though
[16:03] <len-dt> ailo, I suspect PA tries to keep the latency of all its ports the saem.
[16:03] <ailo> "set latency as low as the internal audio IF". What did you mean by that?
[16:03] <len-dt> ailo, I can set my internal IF with jack to run at -p 128 at the lowest.
[16:04] <len-dt> if I plug in a USB IF and use it with jack I can only set -p 128 as well.
[16:04] <ailo> You mean jack won't run at lower latencies than 128 with the USB IF while the internal card is used for PA?
[16:05] <len-dt> but if I configure PA to turn the internal IF off then I can get the USB IF in jack to run at -p 64
[16:05] <len-dt> ailo, yes.
[16:05] <ailo> So, how's the performance at 64?
[16:05] <len-dt> So far seems about the same as at 128
[16:06] <len-dt> The wireless is loaded so the same xrun/minute shows up.
[16:06] <ailo> Ok, so you get that with the USB too
[16:06] <len-dt> Yes. I think it is a wireless HW thing.
[16:07] <len-dt> Acer cheaped out on something to get the unit to be cheaper than everyone else's
[16:07] <ailo> Too big interrupt messages for the network card?
[16:08] <len-dt> No idea. There was already a bug in for this problem and someone else on this irc has mentioned it too.
[16:09] <len-dt> So there are at least 3 people who have seen this.
[16:11] <ailo> I changed my tactics. Instead of booting from network when installing (which I can't do as long as I have all the machines in the same network, since my gateway can't disable its' dhcp), I'll try booting from usb hard disk. I think all of my machines support that.
[16:11] <len-dt> ailo, personally, I would be quite happy to do without wireless to have good audio
[16:11] <ailo> len-dt: I think it's a crude way to fix a problem, but I would be happy to have that option, if I had that problem
[16:12] <ailo> I wouldn't mind adding that as an option to a configuration application, such as Ubuntu Studio Controls. Only, I'd make sure to put it in a trouble-shooting category
[16:13] <astraljava> ailo: Which reminds me, when you wanna talk about that app?
[16:13] <astraljava> Can we set up a work meeting for that?
[16:13] <len-dt> I have changed the bug report. I have added that if I use netmanager to disable wireless the module should reset instead of do constant scan mode.
[16:14] <ailo> astraljava: For now, I have no ideas about it, since we haven't even begun forming docs on testing, which would serve as a blueprint for a good part of it. I only know of one feature I would like to include for sure, and that is administering user realtime privilege
[16:14] <astraljava> ailo: Fair enough. Let's talk more later when we have further plans in place.
[16:15] <len-dt> ailo, did you want to have the config of any "tweak mode" set by the saem app or separate?
[16:16] <len-dt> s/saem/same
[16:16] <ailo> len-dt: It would seem logical to me to have all tweakable options in the same application
[16:17] <len-dt> ok
[16:18] <ailo> If a user would like to set many options at the same time, but only temporarily, I can see the need for a "mode button"
[16:19] <ailo> A "normal mode", and a "tweaked mode"
[16:19] <ailo> For most people a "normal mode" should already be good enough
[16:19] <len-dt> ailo, I had thought of having more than one extra mode, but I am thinking one will be enough.
[16:20] <ailo> If you can tailor the mode, and maybe even save profiles for it, you just need to toggle between two modes
[16:20] <ailo> Someone will like to enable/disable rtirq. Someone will want to disable NM, and so on
[16:21] <ailo> len-dt: I never tried stopping rtirq. Would you like to try it? "/etc/init.d/rtirq stop"
[16:21] <ailo> I don't have it enabled at all right now, since I've booted without threadirqs
[16:22] <ailo> You can monitor the change with : "pd -eo comm,rtprio"
[16:22] <ailo> "ps -eo comm,rtprio"
[16:22] <len-dt> ailo, I haven't got to that yet. Memory and swappiness (and ath9k) seem to have a far greater impact in any of my tests so far.
[16:23] <ailo> len-dt: I was just wondering if that is one option you can change during login
[16:23] <ailo> I guess it should be, since it can be started/stopped
[16:24] <len-dt> My feeling is different from your's on good enough. I think both ideas are correct though.
[16:24] <len-dt> ailo, I don't think at login is the best time to change these things.
[16:24] <len-dt> It keeps the session from being multi-use.
[16:25] <ailo> I don't see why that is a problem
[16:26] <len-dt> Some people want a "normal" computer that they sometimes do audio stuff on. And they should get a good audio experience while having all the rest of their desktop function properly.
[16:26] <ailo> Ok, so there are some possibilies for the mode toggle. Either during the same login, or in worst case, you need to reboot
[16:26] <ailo> len-dt: I don't think the mode is for everyone. Maybe less than 10%
[16:26] <ailo> That has been my standpoint all along
[16:26] <len-dt> Others want a hot audio machine. I have yet to find a change that needs a reboot.
[16:27] <len-dt> As speciality distro I think it is important to cover thet 10%
[16:28] <len-dt> Again I am talking opinion, I am not necessarily correct.
[16:28] <ailo> Because of the small amount of people it will cover, even among pro audio enthusiasts, is why I suggest these are primarily for troubleshooting on machines that behave abnormally
[16:29] <len-dt> But that is also why I like the mode idea as it means the 90% can do nothing and be fine.
[16:29] <ailo> And those who have problems will of course want to fix them
[16:29] <ailo> I only see one reason to have a mode at all. It's when you want to toggle many settings at once
[16:29] <len-dt> Yup.
[16:30] <ailo> Right now, I don't see why someone would want to do that, but I would like to find out
[16:30] <len-dt> I use my laptop/netbook as a normal netbook, I also use it for recording. I have to have a mode change for that to be possible.
[16:31] <len-dt> I do use wireless all the time, but I can't when doing anyhting audio.
[16:31] <ailo> I think a mode toggle might be easier to control, than going through a list of tweakable options each time though, so even if you only change one option with the mode shift, it might still serve a purpose
[16:32] <len-dt> It seems to be easy to do. I am doing it with one click on or off.
[16:32] <ailo> I just want to make sure that the user realizes he shouldn't need it at all, and it's only for those who absolutely need it. The user shouldn't have to do anything. Just plug and play
[16:33] <len-dt> Ok by me.
[16:35] <ailo> I would change my mind, if we find a system tweak that absolutely helps audio operation for most machines, and which at the same time is bad for other things, like video or graphics. If we end up in a situation like that, I would propose to recommend the user to use a mode change to help improve his audio performance
[16:36] <ailo> I wonder if it would have been quicker to copy 50 GB from my usb drive to my internal, and then back, rather than copy from one partitiom to another on the same drive
[16:36] <len-dt> ailo, the problem for me is I do not know how to test video/graphics uses. So while I know that swappiness 0 will help audio, I do not have a clue what it would do for other things. or how to test it.
[16:37] <ailo> len-dt: I guess we will need to find that out :P
[16:37] <len-dt> ailo, we really need someone who does those things to help. It is the big thing missing for me.
[16:39] <astraljava> For so many years I remember there's only been a handful of people who were into graphics/video. I hung out on #cinelerra for a little while, but since that's in a very bad state ATM, I couldn't attract any interest in any of the regulars there.
[16:39] <len-dt> astraljava, are there any webpages that have setup tips for these things?
[16:40] <astraljava> I haven't stumbled upon any, but then I haven't exactly been looking, either.
[16:42] <len-dt> astraljava, so perhaps start with a good strong desktop setup then.
[16:42] <ailo> Another user asked for help on the us channel, but only waited for 4 min
[16:43] <len-dt> ailo, even funnier is they came up under a name and changed it to guest before asking.
[16:43] <ailo> pro graphics and video at least requires a decent graphic card, and also a monitor
[16:43] <ailo> len-dt: Yeah? Why do they do that?
[16:43] <len-dt> Yes, but how does that chaneg any setting we would do?
[16:44] <astraljava> len-dt: Let's talk about that sometimes, I have to go now, though.
[16:44] <ailo> I think both cpu and memory is used extensively, but more so, cpu
[16:44] <ailo> I mean, processing
[16:45] <len-dt> Ya I figured.
[16:45] <ailo> I forget the word, when you for instance make a 3d scene into a movie, what do you call it?
[16:46] <len-dt> rendering?
[16:46] <ailo> That kind of stuff can take a days to process
[16:46] <ailo> Yeah, rendering
[16:46] <len-dt> sound like lots of swap.
[16:47] <ailo> For graphics I think you want a fast cpu, and fast loading
[16:47] <ailo> When you're editing, you want things to move in the same pace as your thoughts
[16:47] <ailo> Same for video editing
[16:48] <ailo> Don't know if you require a lot of RAM
[16:48] <ailo> But, people who do that a lot I'm sure know what hardware they need
[16:48] <ailo> Even though, like for audio, some do it low budget
[16:49] <len-dt> ailo, I think it may be best to see what is needed in the windows world, what the problems are and how we can improve on that.
[16:49] <len-dt> There may be more information around that way.
[16:50] <ailo> One thing I've read is that people want to use linux for video and graphics, but feel they can't because they lack the software for it
[16:50] <ailo> I just recently read about lightworks having a linux version on the way, which would change things on the video side
[16:51] <len-dt> So looking at a win/mac workflow and making sure we have that available and documented is worth while.
[16:52] <len-dt> It is funny, I worked in the TV industry and have a good idea how mauch of this was done (80 to 85 ish) in analogue terms, but not a clue what people do these days.
[16:53] <ailo> My dad said the same thing about cars. He grew up in his fathers shop
[16:56] <ailo> I'm going to install a minimal system on my usb drive and try use that to boot a netinstaller. Just wish I can disconnect it once the installation has started, so I don't need to install one machine at the time
[16:56] <ailo> Going to install them over ssh. Should speed things up when you do 4 at the time
[16:56] <ailo> laterz
[17:00] <len-dt> ailo, I realize you may not see this for a while, but wanted to say it before I forget...
[17:01] <len-dt> Just looking at the other machine that normally gives xrun/minute. and since I turned the internal audio IF off, that problem has gone.
[17:02] <len-dt> I mean turned the internal IF off in PA.
[17:02] <len-dt> So the PA-jack bridge allows PA to affect jack.
[19:54] <ailo> len-dt: That does make sense, even though one would not want the pa bridge to do anything if not activated
[19:55] <ailo> Finally got all my computers hooked up into the network. Now, I just need to get them installed
[19:57] <ailo> Going to install basic debian servers on each computers, so I can easily install anything from local hard disk on each computer. Will transfer the images through ssh. This way, each new install won't be as painful. Would be great to automate the install even
[19:57] <shnatsel> ailo: there are tools for that in Debian for ages
[19:58] <ailo> shnatsel: Never tried it before
[19:58] <ailo> Never had to install on multiple computers
[19:59] <shnatsel> ailo: from basic "dpkg --get-selections > somefile" on one machine and restoring the same software configurations on others to fully automated installation of the system
[19:59] <shnatsel> ailo: google it then
[20:00] <shnatsel> ailo: image transfer is a very ugly way which is common because it's the only way to transfer Windows. It also works only between identical hardware configurations and only sometimes.
[20:00] <ailo> I'm talking about the installation media
[20:01] <shnatsel> oh yes, there are tools for that too.
[20:01] <shnatsel> several, in fact.
[20:01] <shnatsel> preseed is probably one of them
[20:01] <ailo> I was going to use tftp, but my gateway can't shut off dphcp, so I can never boot into the right one
[20:01] <ailo> I just looked up preseed
[20:02] <ailo> Sounds like that might work for me
[20:02] <shnatsel> preseed is designed for such use cases AFAIR, though I've never used it
[20:02] <ailo> I was first thinking about installing through ssh, but even that is more work then needed
[20:03] <shnatsel> I make Ubuntu LiveCD remasters for mass distribution and installation. Doesn't work quite well, installing on 15 machines was tedious.
[20:03] <shnatsel> ailo: try asking in some Debian channel, or googling. Google surely knows a lot of solutions.
[20:03] <ailo> http://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.enhttp://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.en
[20:04] <ailo> That was a strange paste
[20:04] <shnatsel> you mean http://www.debian.org/releases/squeeze/i386/apb.html.en
[20:11] <ailo> Well, there's a few options to go through, which means I have more work to do tomorrow
[20:11] <ailo> That's all for me today. gn US


[16:50] <mike00> hi appdevs, is there someone who can help me with the ScreenSaver element in a qmake app?
[17:58] <g_> hello
[17:59] <g_> i was wondering about using snaps to run services
[18:04] <dobey> g_: #snappy might be a better channel