[00:17] <slangasek> jcrigby: have opened bug #591968 with my notes to date on this issue (they were starting to fall out of my head)
[00:17] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 591968 in coreutils (Ubuntu Maverick) (and 1 other project) "coreutils 8.5-1ubuntu1 FTBFS on armel, powerpc, sparc (test-linkat assert fail) (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/591968
[00:19] <NCommander> ogra: so you fixed jasper?
[00:36] <bullet9mm> go to bed...good night!  :)
[00:38] <GrueMaster> NCommander: ogra is either in bed or traveling.
[00:47] <jcrigby> slangasek: ok thanks
[01:29]  * mozzwald is away: off to grandmothers house I go
[02:14]  * cwillu_at_work pokes around in rcn-ee's general direction
[02:14] <jcrigby> slangasek: still around?
[02:14] <slangasek> jcrigby: yep
[02:14] <jcrigby> just added a comment to the bug
[02:15] <jcrigby> I won't repeat it here
[02:19] <slangasek> jcrigby: hmm, is that strcmp() actually failing for you?  It didn't for me
[02:19] <slangasek> only the SAME_INODE() check fails
[02:19] <slangasek> (sorry, the line number is wrong in the logs I posted to the bug report because I inserted some other debugging)
[02:19] <slangasek> should be line 73 in the original file
[02:21] <jcrigby> I only have your strace data.  Strace does not work in qemu user emulation mode
[02:22] <slangasek> OK
[02:22] <jcrigby> from the strace data, I would predict that strcmp would fail
[02:22] <jcrigby> given the ... on the end of the strings
[02:22] <jcrigby> string
[02:22] <slangasek> I think that's an abberation in the strace output; if it was really non-null garbage data, I would have expected it inside the double quote
[02:23] <slangasek> rather - it may be signalling that there's more data there, but the string appears to be properly null terminated
[02:25] <jcrigby> can you try using calloc instead of malloc in areadlink_with_size and see if the problem goes away?  Just to humor me:)
[02:26] <slangasek> sure, lemme find it
[02:26] <slangasek> you want calloc(1, buf_size)?
[02:27] <jcrigby> its in lib/areadlink-with-size.c
[02:27] <jcrigby> yes, that should do it
[02:27] <slangasek> rebuilding
[02:28] <jcrigby> Meanwhile I'm going to figure out what strace really means by "string"...
[02:36] <slangasek> jcrigby: sorry, have to afk now and the build is still running (I took the lazy way out to rebuild, which means it's rebuilding everything and will take a while) - I'll report results when I return later this evening
[02:38] <slangasek> btw, it looks like the code does append the trailing \0?
[02:38] <slangasek>       if (link_length < buf_size)
[02:38] <slangasek>         {
[02:38] <slangasek>           buffer[link_length] = 0;
[02:38] <slangasek>           return buffer;
[02:38] <slangasek>         }
[02:41] <jcrigby> slangasek: oops
[03:03] <jcrigby> slangasek:ok sorry about the wild goose chase.   I have noticed one other oddity.  The test uses the size returned from lstat in the call to areadlink_with_size which should be 17 according to the strace data.  areadlink_with_size adds 1 to it and calls readlink.  In the amd64 case we see 18 which makes sense.  However, the armel strace shows 1025 which means that 1024 was passed to areadlink_with_size.
[04:19] <cwillu_at_work> what would "unknown location" be implying?
[04:19] <cwillu_at_work> er, "unknown relocation" while loading a kernel module
[04:24] <jcrigby> slangasek: I see this in the build log:  CC       test-linkat.o
[04:24] <jcrigby> In file included from test-linkat.c:44:
[04:24] <jcrigby> test-link.h: In function 'test_link':
[04:24] <jcrigby> test-link.h:47: warning: implicit declaration of function 'stat'
[04:24] <jcrigby> test-link.h:98: warning: implicit declaration of function 'mkdir'
[04:24] <jcrigby> test-linkat.c: In function 'check_same_link':
[04:24] <jcrigby> test-linkat.c:65: warning: implicit declaration of function 'lstat'
[04:27] <jcrigby> test-link.c does not get errors.  Its includes are different.  Can you try including sys/stat.h in test-linkat.c?
[04:45] <cwillu_at_work> hmm, I can't modprobe anything
[04:56]  * mozzwald is away: time for some zeez
[06:35] <slangasek> jcrigby: oh, nicely caught
[06:36] <slangasek> jcrigby: I saw those link warnings but wrote them off, thinking that the prototypes would Just Work by default
[06:38] <slangasek> jcrigby: so, the tests pass now - do you want to put that into a bzr branch that I can merge & upload?
[07:46] <ogra> NCommander, were your debian-cd changes merged or uploaded in any way ? (why did you close the workitem)
[07:52] <NCommander> ogra: the work is done, there is a seperate work item for merging I thought
[07:53]  * ogra doesnt see one that talks about merging
[07:53] <ogra> i see one that talks about debian-cd and one that talks about the post processing
[07:54] <ogra> and one about bziping
[07:54] <NCommander> ogra: huh, maybe I'm loosing it
[07:54] <ogra> anyway, leave it like that
[07:54]  * NCommander is having one of those weeks
[07:54] <NCommander> ogra: I'm filing MIRs for x-loader/x-loader-omap4 and uboot-omap
[07:55] <NCommander> ogra: much sanier for the code if they're in main since apt-selection doesn't seem to work in universe, and seems non-trivial to fix
[07:55] <ogra> it has to, how else would distros like edubuntu or xubuntu roll their images
[07:55] <ogra> but i agree, MIR is definately better
[07:56] <NCommander> ogra: its more a matter that when control passes into the boot/post-boot scripts, the necessary environment for apt-selection goes "poof" as far as I can tell
[07:56] <NCommander> and its proving difficult to get that to work.
[07:57] <NCommander> I'll keep poking at it, but we should have these in main anyway so only if we do a 10.04.1 do we need to care about actually retrieving these files from universe
[07:57] <ogra> well, there has to be a way that edubuntu and xubuntu use for the alternates
[07:57] <ogra> but dont bother now, MIRs are fine
[07:58] <ogra> i'm still experimenting with jasper, it could be that we need to generate ext2 by default and convert after resizing to ext3
[07:58] <ogra> bug 5583317 is really bad
[07:58] <ubot2> ogra: Error: Bug #5583317 not found.
[07:58]  * ogra pokes the bot
[07:58] <ogra> bug 583317
[07:58] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 583317 in genext2fs (Ubuntu) "genext2fs creates revision 0 filesystems instead of revision 1 (affects: 1) (heat: 156)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/583317
[07:59] <ogra> pfft
[07:59] <ogra> though thats apparently something to be fixed in genext2fs
[07:59] <NCommander> ogra: maybe we should use loop mounting
[08:00] <ogra> for now i added an extra ext2fsck to livecd-rootfs but i'm not sure that will not make livefs.sh explode
[08:00] <ogra> since it exits with 2
[08:00] <ogra> lets keep that as last resort, i'm not a fan of loop mounting
[08:00] <NCommander> ogra: I think you can pipe to true, to force a return of 0
[08:01] <NCommander> or osme other stupid trick
[08:01] <NCommander> or trap an exit code of two
[08:01] <ogra> well, it needs testing anyway but i wont have the time to run a livefs build on my lappie the next tw days
[08:02] <ogra> luckily nobody uses the ext3 code so i could just add it to the function for now, if it doent work we can always revert
[08:02] <ogra> using ext2 might also have speed advantages
[08:03] <ogra> in jasper
[08:03] <ogra> the resizing takes between 6 and 7 mins
[08:03] <ogra> NCommander, btw, not sure you saw it in your backlog http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/jasper/
[08:03] <ogra> there is an image to test if you feel bored enough :)
[08:04] <ogra> though there is a lot that doesnt work yet, the resizing does at least
[08:07]  * ogra wonders why his NM applet tends to disappear from the panel
[08:09] <NCommander> ogra: _\o/_
[08:09] <NCommander> ogra: I stll have tons to screw around with the d-cd backend code, but we should probably do an initial merger soon
[08:09] <NCommander> ogra: do we care about 10.04.1 for omap3 at all?
[08:10] <NCommander> Now that I have maverick locally, I can choose not to care
[08:10] <ogra> we do
[08:10] <NCommander> ogra: so we want pre-installed images for 10.04.1?
[08:10] <ogra> there are a bunch of bugs we need to milestone before the meeting
[08:10] <hrw> morning
[08:10] <ogra> no, but we want some kernel SRUs for 10.04.1 in omap3
[08:11] <NCommander> ogra: ok, so I'll leave the boot scripts for lucid alone, and just merge those into the maverick tree
[08:11] <ogra> like the USB NIC udeb misses a lot of drivers
[08:11] <ogra> yeah
[08:11] <NCommander> ogra: works for me, that makes my life simpiler. I'm going to add a work item on the MIRs for the bootloader
[08:11] <ogra> we wont change images, but there are some SRU bits we want, we need to add them to the release meeting report tomorrow
[08:12] <ogra> dont !
[08:12] <ogra> it will rise the WI count !
[08:18] <NCommander> ogra: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/x-loader/+bug/592045
[08:18] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 592045 in x-loader-omap4 (Ubuntu) (and 3 other projects) "[MIR] x-loader/x-loader-omap4/u-boot-omap3/u-boot-omap4 (affects: 1) (heat: 10)" [High,New]
[08:19] <NCommander> ogra: ok, no work item
[08:21] <ogra> great, thanks
[08:24] <ogra> we'll mention the bug in the report, that saves us the WI
[08:52] <JamieBennett> /join #ubuntu-devel
[08:53] <ogra> heh
[10:29] <JameswStubbs> Hello
[10:30] <JameswStubbs> Can someone please point me to some documentation for creating an initrd for an arm boot?
[10:38] <JameswStubbs> What's the difference between iop4xx, orion5x, iop32x
[10:38] <JameswStubbs> ?
[10:44] <bullet9mm> hi all!!
[10:44] <JameswStubbs> Hello
[10:54] <asac> ogra_cmpc: will you guys make good step forward on the thumb2 porting this cycle?
[10:54] <asac> (I assume not, but wanted to check if that is priority for your team)
[11:52] <JameswStubbs> is armv5tej the same as armv6?
[11:56] <hrw> no
[11:56] <hrw> armv6 runs armv5te binaries but not reverse
[11:57] <JameswStubbs> So a distrobution compiled for armv5te won't work with an armv6 kernel?
[11:57] <hrw> will work
[11:57] <JameswStubbs> Ah, good, thank you
[11:57] <hrw> armv6 binaries do not work with armv5te hardware
[11:57] <hrw> etc
[11:58] <JameswStubbs> Thanks
[11:58] <hrw> JameswStubbs: if you are rather x86 guy then remind i386<486<568<686 and then armv4 < armv4t < armv5te(j) < armv6 < armv7a
[11:59] <JameswStubbs> So arm like x86 has backwards compatibilty with older archs
[11:59] <hrw> yes
[11:59] <hrw> but in arm world it is more clean
[12:00] <hrw> in x86 i586 != i586 if cpu are from diferent vendors
[12:00] <hrw> amd k5 has 3dnow which intel pentium-mmx do not have. but both are i586
[12:01] <JameswStubbs> Do you prefer arm to x86?
[12:01] <hrw> or intel pentium pro (first i686) contra Core i7 (latest i686). first has only mmx, second has lot of addons...
[12:01] <hrw> JameswStubbs: for my gadgets I prefer arm. for small low power I prefer arm. for my desktop I prefer x86-64
[12:02] <JameswStubbs> This is my first experience with arm on embedded, atm it seems to be far more difficult to get a busybox than x86
[12:02] <hrw> my laptops are x86 and x86-64. but arm powered one would be nice
[12:02] <hrw> JameswStubbs: what hw?
[12:03] <JameswStubbs> iPhone 3g
[12:03] <JameswStubbs> armv6
[12:03] <hrw> s3c6410 iirc
[12:04] <JameswStubbs> Yes produced by samsung
[12:04] <JameswStubbs> Has imgtech power vr althought gpu drivers are not yet reverse engineered
[12:05] <hrw> powervr...
[12:13] <JameswStubbs> PowerVR (MBX Lite)
[12:53] <JameswStubbs> hrw using rootstock now with iPhone's kernel, should be able to emulate using qemu
[12:55] <hrw> qemu requires qemu kernel
[12:55] <JameswStubbs> Can you not use a different arm kernel?
[12:57] <hrw> arm kernels are bound to machine or set of machines
[12:57] <hrw> there is no such thing as 'one kernel image works on any arm device'
[12:57] <JameswStubbs> The iphone kernel works on the iphone :/
[12:57] <JameswStubbs> Android is already booting
[12:58] <JameswStubbs> The kernel is made just for the iPhone
[13:15] <sivang> hi all
[13:15] <JameswStubbs> Hello
[13:20] <sivang> so there's an official arm port? canonical supported?
[13:20]  * sivang is curious who does the arm port for Marvell
[13:21] <hrw> sivang: depends which marvell cpu
[13:21] <hrw> sivang: there is official ARM port but armv7a only (cortex-a8/a9 core)
[13:22] <sivang> hrw: coretx-a8 is TI's no?
[13:22] <sivang> hrw: or are marvell also producing it?
[13:22] <hrw> sivang: nope
[13:22] <sivang> hrw: N900 uses TI's right?
[13:22] <hrw> sivang: Cortex-A8/A9/A5 and M0/M3/M4 are names from ARM Ltd.
[13:23] <hrw> sivang: yes, it has TI OMAP3530
[13:23] <sivang> hrw: so it's their specs
[13:23] <sivang> okay
[13:23] <sivang> thanks
[13:23] <sivang> hrw: and the port is officiall supported by Canonical due to OEM's demand?
[13:23] <hrw> sivang: ARM creates core, vendors buy license and make a silicon
[13:23] <hrw> so Cortex A8/A9 you can get from TI, Freescale, Marvell, ST-Ericsson, NVidia and few others
[13:24] <hrw> sivang: I was not here when port was created so cant comment
[13:24] <sivang> hrw: okay, cool, thanks.
[13:24] <armin76> sivang: considering they've done it without using public hw, i'd say yes
[13:24] <armin76> nevertheless ask ogra, lool and asac
[13:25] <sivang> armin76: what do you mean using public hw?
[13:25] <armin76> hrw: qualcomm, how could you forget so important one? :P
[13:25] <armin76> sivang: one you can buy
[13:26] <armin76> sivang: as in smartbooks, nettops, you know...
[13:26] <armin76> stuff you can buy, not development stuff
[13:26]  * sivang wonders if ogra_cmpc remebers him
[13:26] <sivang> or asac for that matter
[13:26] <sivang> :)
[13:27] <armin76> i can also tell you that here there are a lot of ppl from vendors, so that reinforces my thought :)
[13:31] <sivang> i see
[13:57] <asac> sivang: lucid has a official marvel dove port
[13:59] <lag> Has anyone seen this error before? omapdss DISPC error: SYNC_LOST_DIGIT
[13:59] <lag> It renders my Panda unusable
[14:05] <sivang> asac: nice, I see.
[14:06] <asac> lag: we are waiting for the pandas ;) ... so cant tell!
[14:06] <hrw> asac: ogra has panda
[14:07] <asac> ogra also has eucalyptus ;)
[14:08]  * lag shouts "OGRA"
[14:08] <lag> ogra_cmpc: Can you give me a shout when you return please?
[15:01] <asac> ogra_cmpc: what triggeres the flash-kernel thing?
[15:01] <asac> is that in postinst of linux-image?
[15:01] <asac> or a trigger?
[16:56] <GrueMaster> asac: In answer to your question re:flash-kernel, I believe it is the postinst script that triggers it.  I know it runs whenever I install a test kernel.
[17:03] <asac> yeah i know its always run. just wanted confirm its not using a trigger
[17:03] <asac> thanks
[17:09] <GrueMaster> asac: actually, it might be a triggered event.  I looked at /etc/kernel-img.conf and it lists postinst_hook=flash-kernel.  I also don't remember flash-kernel requiring any parameters, so this could be it.
[17:09] <asac> i dont think its triggered because it didnt get triggered when installing a custom kernel .deb
[17:09] <asac> from rcn
[17:11] <GrueMaster> Hmmm.  The custom test kernel packages I always get from clooney or ericm always initiated flash-kernel somehow.  I admit I don't know enough about the deb system to fully understand all the mechanisms used.
[17:17] <asac> right. i think they use the "official debian" packaging
[17:17] <asac> while rcn's lucid kernels do something else (supposed to be used without initram i guess)
[17:18] <GrueMaster> ah, fun.
[20:13] <armin76> asac: i am getting a panda too, right? :D


[00:59] <ScottL> ailo_at, are you still working on the theme as well?
[01:23] <ScottL> ailo_at, would you mind looking at bug #720476
[01:24] <ScottL> and marking it as "confirmed" if you are experiencing the same problem
[01:24] <ailo_at> ScottL: Was it hard to file the bug? I confirmed it.
[01:25] <ailo_at> I mean, I marked that it affects me as well..
[01:26] <ailo_at> Ok, I confirmed it.
[01:36] <ScottL> ailo_at, filing it?  no, wasn't hard at all actually :)   i used the command that persia suggest "ubuntu-bug debian-installer"
[01:36] <ScottL> it absolutely rocked
[01:37] <ailo_at> ScottL: I didn't look through the attachments, but did you see the cause for it at all?
[01:37] <ScottL> it started collecting information, opened a new tab in firefox, started the bug report, and attached the "relevant" information
[01:38] <ScottL> ailo_at, i didn't look through it really, there were many attachments and i would be looking for a needle in a haystack because of my ignorance
[01:38] <ScottL> but i'm hoping to poke someone tomorrow at work in #ubuntu-installer as persia suggested
[01:39] <ailo_at> I suppose someone will find out, if the info is missing from the bug report.
[01:39] <ScottL> i say "relevant" because it may not contain any information from the failed install at all!  especially after backing up and not selecting the video-meta and completing the install :/
[01:39] <ScottL> but there's a bug report now and i'll poke around in #ubuntu-installer and maybe the can suggest a better way to find out
[01:41] <ailo_at> ScottL: I've been working on the -controls the past two days. Still learning the basics. I copy what I can from the original controls
[01:41] <ailo_at> But using the gui I made.
[01:42] <ScottL> it looks like you and paultag are working together, no?
[01:42] <ScottL> which is an awesome way to learn...he told me he was part of the beginner team that helps people learn
[01:43] <paultag> yeah, I've been really sick, I'm just on now
[01:43] <paultag> ScottL: ailo_at rocks, he's got a ton done
[01:43] <ailo_at> I had a problem yesterday with hidden tabs (symbols that you don't see from a text editor), that comes from copy and pasting from the web. :P
[01:44] <ailo_at> Spent a couple of hours scratching my head
[01:44] <paultag> ailo_at: heheh
[01:47] <ailo_at> paultag: Just pushed an update on the Glade file. The code is still just a barebone. The only thing that is partly worked on is the memlock control, and the help file opens the ubuntustudio docu wiki page.
[01:47] <ScottL> paultag, heh, i was hella sick yesterday and just getting over it today, think it was a slight bit of food poisoning :/
[01:48] <paultag> ailo_at: awesome
[01:48] <paultag> ScottL: oh no :(
[01:48] <ScottL> oh, ailo_at and paultag: not that we should stress on this now, but someone had a really good suggestion :
[01:48] <ScottL> have a graphical way to "upgrade" to ubuntu studio from ubuntu desktop
[01:49] <ScottL> that might fit into -controls as some point, just a single click "upgrade" button to do it all
[01:49] <ScottL> just thinking out loud, maybe this isn't the place
[01:49] <ailo_at> ScottL: I have a button called "Set UbuntuStudio Default Settings" that is supposed to do that.
[01:49] <ScottL> and certainly not for this release but i'll add it to the "release planning"...
[01:50] <ScottL> oRLy?
[01:50] <ScottL> well, that unequivocally rocks ailo_at :)
[01:51] <ailo_at> ScottL: Allthough, it doesn't install audio packages at all, but I suppose we could expand that a little. Add metapackage selection to the controls.
[01:51] <ScottL> now that i have an install of ubuntu studio on my second computer that seems stable i can start testing kernels as well
[01:51] <ScottL> ailo_at, don't stress on it yet, that can be a feature to be added later for sure
[01:51] <paultag> :)
[01:51] <ailo_at> Adding meta packages should be easy enough
[01:58] <ailo_at> Another thing I've thought about is having an indicator app for the controls. The app we are working on now could be a system preferences part of an indicator menu.
[02:05] <ScottL> i've been making good use of my latest Linux Format magazine today while incapacitated and have been reading jono's effusing on unity and i realized...
[02:05] <ScottL> when i installed studio today it went straight to gnome instead of unity!
[02:05] <ScottL> so the patch i did actually worked!  yay :)
[02:05] <ScottL> thanks TheMuso for uploading it :)
[02:05] <ScottL> and i'll have to send didirock a big thank you tomorrow as well for patiently working with me to wrangle up the patch
[02:06] <ailo_at> I have to start installing from network. I'm running out of DVD's :P
[02:06] <ScottL> ailo_at, i've been using rewritable dvd's, they're good for 20 or so rewrites before they start acting up
[02:07] <ailo_at> I usually install from usb on the computers that support it. Would be nice to get rid of the CD DVD format all together.
[02:07] <ScottL> i wonder however, etiquette for bugs, can i mark the gnome-classic bug as "fixed" now, or should i wait until the official natty release?
[02:08] <ScottL> and i need to report this bug fixed on the team report also :)
[02:28] <ScottL> holstein has been pushing for a graphical installer, which i believe will then allow you to create usb images to install
[02:28] <ScottL> maybe in a non-lts version we can implement the graphical installer and just install ALL the packages for that release
[02:29] <ScottL> and work on a way to select (if we feel we still need to do select packages*) packages for the next release
[02:29] <ScottL> this would give us a year to work on implementing package selection in a graphical installation
[02:30] <ScottL> * i suppose it is possible to decide not to select packages if we have a streamlined package selection anyway
[02:30] <ScottL> i noticed the 'audio production' menu fits on the screen currently in natty, which is a good thing in my opinion :)
[02:32] <ailo_at> Not for me, since I have a 1024x768 resolution.
[03:04] <ailo_at> ScottL: Just thinking about the graphical installer. Isn't it better to have a meta package for that in Software Center?
[03:05] <ailo_at> The controls can still have package selection, at least meta-package selection.
[03:05] <ailo_at> And the way you would install from the -controls would be: choose packages, hit apply.
[03:18] <ailo_at> If we made the controls into a indicator menu app, we could split up the functions. We could have a dedicated Multimedia package management app and a preferences app.
[03:18] <ailo_at> As menu items in the controls
[03:20] <ailo_at> falktx idea of a control app seemed very all in one. If the controls could dock other software into it, like jack, it could be similar to what falktx is working on.
[03:21] <ailo_at> I mean qjackctl, not jack itself
[03:21] <ailo_at> Could be nice to have a sound check function too.
[08:12] <abogani> ailo_at: Could you rerun tests disabling AUTOGROUP (that is do as root "echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled"), please?
[08:17] <abogani> ailo_at: For find culprit you could use perf (with its function_graph tracer).
[12:40] <ailo_at> abogani: So, I installed linux-tools for 2.6.38-3 for now. Running perf gave this error "perf_2.6.38-3: error while loading shared libraries: libbfd-2.21-system.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory". I have /usr/lib/libbfd-2.21.0-system.20110216.so, created today, so I made a symbolic link at /usr/lib/libbfd-2.21-system.co. It seems to work. You think this is ok to do?
[13:01] <abogani> ailo_at: It could be safe.
[13:01] <abogani> should*
[13:06] <abogani> ailo_at: Perhaps sched_switch is better trace...
[13:06] <abogani> But I'm really know...
[13:06] <abogani> *don't*
[13:06] <ailo_at> abogani: So much to look through. Could you give me an example command?
[13:07] <abogani> I know how find latencies culprit on realtime kernel but not on "normal" kernel :-(
[13:14] <abogani> As root
[13:14] <abogani> cd /sys/kernel/debug/tracing
[13:14] <abogani> echo 0 > tracing_enabled
[13:14] <abogani> cat availabe_tracers
[13:15] <abogani> echo tracer_choosen > current_tracer
[13:15] <abogani> echo 1 > tracing_enabled
[13:15] <abogani> do what do you want
[13:15] <abogani> echo 0 > tracing_enabled
[13:15] <abogani> cat trace
[13:16] <abogani> ailo_at: Do you have already made test with turning AUTOGROUP off?
[13:17] <ailo_at> I turned it off, but no change as far as I can see. No reboot needed, right?
[13:17] <abogani> No.
[13:17] <abogani> No reboot needed.
[13:19]  * abogani thinks that for do this works we should build a custom kernel...
[13:21] <ScottL> here is something a little surprising: http://ubuntu-tweak.com/app/ulatency/
[13:21] <ScottL> claims to lower latency by using cgroups
[13:21] <ScottL> abogani, i have done as you enumerated
[13:22] <ScottL> https://launchpad.net/~slavender/+archive/broken
[13:24] <abogani> ScottL: really good guy.
[13:24] <ScottL> ailo_at, just to make sure i understand your previous comments, are you suggesting that we create a singe "install ubuntu studio"meta package so that someone could upgrade by installing a single package via software center or synaptic or CLI ?
[13:24] <abogani> Studio still use alternate cd/dvd?
[13:24] <ScottL> abogani, yes
[13:24] <abogani> mhhhh
[13:25] <ScottL> ailo_at, i also like falktx idea of a single control app, i even suggested to him that he incorprate patchage or similar for connections in it as well
[13:25] <ScottL> ailo_at, this would really give a single point of usage to control the audio server
[13:25] <ScottL> abogani, but there are serious talks about moving to the graphical installer
[13:26] <ScottL> it's just a matter of understanding how and having the commitment from people to implement/maintain it
[13:26] <ScottL> and i suppose we need to address a few items as well, like if we continue to give people installation choice via tasksel and how to implement it
[13:26] <ailo_at> ScottL: I am for the single install package in Software Center. I'm not sure about having your own software doing the patchage and stuff, since there already are so many out there. I don't like putting everything in one program. Would be better to have it able to dock programs, like if they were plugins.
[13:27] <ailo_at> ScottL: An indicator menu like the one for sound and mail, maybe?
[13:28]  * abogani don't think that ulatencyd could help us. It seems a "replace" for AUTOGROUP (features added recently into the kernel also called "200 line magic patch" or similar)
[13:28] <abogani> thinks*
[13:29]  * ScottL is heading to work
[13:35] <abogani> Ok the next step for update lowlatency kernel is:
[13:35] <abogani> Repeat the same steps for ubuntu-natty-lowlatency (done for -meta).
[13:36] <abogani> *Before* launch debuild:
[13:36] <abogani> mkdir ~/a_temporary_directory_wherever_you_want -p
[13:36] <abogani> cp -a debian* ~/a_temporary_directory_wherever_you_want
[13:36] <abogani> cd ~/a_temporary_directory_wherever_you_want
[13:37] <abogani> and so debuild -S -sa
[13:37] <abogani> and all the rest (like -meta)
[13:38] <abogani> ScottL: ^
[13:38] <abogani> It is simple, isn't it?
[13:38] <abogani> ;-)
[13:44] <persia> For those interested in graphical installers for the point of graphical installers, rather than for some other reason, plenty of work has been done at http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/GUI to provide a GUI for the current installer, which may be interesting, to avoid having to reengineer everything for a completely different installer.
[13:48] <abogani> We can't use the same Ubuntu installer?
[14:51] <persia> abogani, So, there are two different sorts of installer available for the architectures we support.  One is used on the live images (ubiquity), and the other is used on the alternate images (debian-installer).
[14:51] <persia> Most of the actual installation code is shared (it comes from other packages and the code is delivered within the context of the selected installer).
[14:51] <persia> Right now, Ubuntu Studio only has alternate images, so all the testing has been done with debian-installer.
[14:52] <persia> Adding a GUI to that is 90% testing: it might just work.  It might need a couple tweaks.
[14:52] <persia> Switching to ubiquity means changing the install experience, writing wrapper handlers for any installer components that aren't currently supported (e.g. for task handling), and then testing/tweaking.
[15:29]  * abogani admits that alternate install not suit well with Studio's audience ...
[15:31] <holstein> persia: i'll look at that link
[15:31] <holstein> i would just want to make sure that USB stick installs are simplified
[15:31] <holstein> which ever way we decide to go
[15:31] <holstein> *to try and cover as many issues as possible
[15:32] <holstein> i think adding the GUI to what we have would be cool
[15:32] <persia> I don't see any reason why USB installs shouldn't be completely independent of the technology used during the install.
[15:33] <holstein> well, currently there is an error
[15:33] <persia> But yeah, just making what we have use GTK rather than curses seems the line of least resistance to me (assuming the code works: I don't believe it's ever been tested in Ubuntu)
[15:33] <holstein> where the installer cant locate the media
[15:33] <holstein> thats using unetbootin
[15:34] <holstein> i havent tried the ubuntu USB stick maker in a while
[15:34] <holstein> but back at 10.04
[15:34] <holstein> it didnt do anything
[15:34] <holstein> also, having a LIVE installer would be nice
[15:34] <holstein> for testing purposes
[15:35] <holstein> so someone can fire up JACK and a synth on their hardware
[15:35] <holstein> for example
[15:35] <persia> I don't think we can get support for unetbootin at any point.
[15:36] <persia> I've heard there's work to port USB Creator to other platforms (Windows and OS X).  I'm unsure of current status.
[15:36] <holstein> ubiquity works with unet
[15:36] <holstein> and usb creator
[15:36] <holstein> thats why i was pushing for it
[15:36] <persia> I'm still opposed to LIVE, especially because if someone fires up JACK and a synth on their hardware in a live environment, they probably won't be able to play anything with anywhere close to acceptable latency.
[15:36] <holstein> seemed to take out the most birds with one stone ;)
[15:37] <holstein> yeah?
[15:37] <holstein> well, i was pushing for it for several reasons
[15:37] <holstein> it makes the installer look and feel like normal ubuntu
[15:37] <persia> Try it.  Boot a live Desktop CD, install qjackctl and a synth, and see what performance you get.
[15:37] <holstein> makes USB installs easier
[15:37] <persia> All prior testing found it completely unacceptable.
[15:38] <holstein> and
[15:38] <holstein> we are the only audio distro i can find that doesnt have a live installer
[15:38] <holstein> and my testing has been actually quite acceptable
[15:39] <holstein> the old dynebolic acutally gave a bit better performance live for me
[15:39] <persia> You've tried the test I described above?
[15:39] <holstein> that ubuntustudio 8.04
[15:39] <holstein> not a fair comparison
[15:39] <holstein> BUT
[15:39] <holstein> AVlinux live is quite similar to ubuntustudio installed
[15:39] <holstein> and KXstudio
[15:39] <holstein> not bad
[15:39] <holstein> do-able
[15:40] <holstein> persia: i'll try that test again in natty
[15:40] <holstein> just to make sure
[15:40] <persia> OK.  And no fair if you have really-new-extra-super-powered hardware :)
[15:41] <holstein> nope
[15:41] <persia> But if you think it's acceptable, maybe things have changed in the past few years.
[15:41] <holstein> dynebolic was running on a p3
[15:41] <holstein> with 256 ram
[15:41] <holstein> that was able to have jack stable at 20ms
[15:41] <holstein> persia: well, would i make an album on a live CD of ubuntustudio?
[15:41] <holstein> no
[15:42] <holstein> but, i think it would be handy
[15:42] <holstein> i think a lot of bad vibes occur for new users
[15:42] <holstein> for example
[15:42] <holstein> folks dont know that ubuntustudio = ubuntu
[15:42] <persia> I'm not opposed if it's acceptable.  I'm mostly opposed if it can give a poor impression of Ubuntu Studio.
[15:42] <holstein> so, they wipe their functional buntu install
[15:42] <holstein> OR dual boot
[15:42] <persia> We need to fix that.
[15:43] <holstein> persia: we should talk about this more
[15:43] <persia> We're Ubuntu Studio, but our difference to Ubuntu Desktop isn't enough to make us not Ubuntu.
[15:43] <holstein> because that is completely my motivation as well
[15:43] <holstein> all i can do is look at my experiences
[15:44] <holstein> and notice what i see in the support channel
[15:44] <holstein> for me, i installed 8.04
[15:44] <holstein> ubuntustudio
[15:44] <holstein> several times
[15:44] <holstein> didnt even know about the IRC back then
[15:44] <holstein> all i knew was my firepod didnt work
[15:45] <holstein> BUT, it worked with the 64studio live CD
[15:45] <holstein> and i didnt know why
[15:45] <holstein> it was simple permissions pretty much
[15:45] <holstein> BUT for me to test ubuntustudio
[15:45] <holstein> i had to install each time
[15:46] <holstein> and that at the time gave me a poor impression of ubuntustudio
[15:46] <persia> Aha.  Yes, that's a useful case for  a LiveCD.
[15:46] <persia> As long as stuff actually *works*.
[15:46] <holstein> and im arguing that this could be the case for others as well
[15:46] <holstein> however, i totally see your point of view as well
[15:46] <holstein> i feel like maybe we can come to some comfortable middle ground
[15:46] <persia> I'm mostly echoing the historical point of view.  In practice, I don't care that much.
[15:46] <holstein> and will address all of my concerns
[15:47] <holstein> and keep the performance in mind
[15:47] <persia> My main goal is to make sure we don't repeat mistakes because we've forgotten our history.
[15:47] <holstein> persia: i gotta split for a while
[15:47] <holstein> i'll catch up later though :)
[15:47] <persia> Sure :)
[16:02] <holstein> alright
[16:02] <holstein> couple more minutes
[16:02] <holstein> i sked cjwatson about the switch to ubiquity
[16:03] <holstein> hypothetically of course
[16:03] <holstein> i was told it would not be trival
[16:03] <holstein> BUT do-able
[16:03] <holstein> and the biggest loss for us is the metapackage selection
[16:03] <holstein> i would like to bring this up to though
[16:03] <holstein> i remember the first probably 6 or so times i saw it
[16:04] <holstein> i would hit the wrong key
[16:04] <holstein> and skip past it
[16:04] <holstein> accidentally
[16:04] <holstein> and not get any of them
[16:04] <holstein> and i should have RTFM'd probably
[16:04] <holstein> but i had not seen that kind of installer before
[16:05] <holstein> and didnt understand it fully
[16:05] <holstein> then, somewhere around 9.10
[16:05] <holstein> the metepackages wouldnt install
[16:05] <holstein> it took a while for me to figure out which one *not* to install
[16:05] <holstein> so that then install wouldnt fail
[16:06] <holstein> in this scenario, the end-user needed to figure out a work around for a bug
[16:07] <holstein> then, download a significant amount of data twice
[16:07] <holstein> just to finally see the ubuntustudio desktop
[16:07] <holstein> *and not know how to join a wifi network ;)
[16:08] <holstein> anyways... maybe this can be a time when we can really think about wht we want going forward
[16:08] <holstein> i mean, functionally, the alternate installer is fine
[16:08] <holstein> we all know that
[16:08] <holstein> but, i think we can all agree that something needs to be changed in the near-ish future
[16:09] <holstein> even if its just better USB stick installation documentation
[16:09] <holstein> scrap the live-cd idea
[16:09] <holstein> and a GUI installer kinda like the one we've got
[16:10] <holstein> i gotta run again, but
[16:10] <holstein> persia: are there any other options for installers that you are thinking about?
[16:10] <holstein> we got the current alternate
[16:10] <holstein> ubiquity
[16:10] <holstein> the debian GUI
[16:10] <persia> That's about it.
[16:11] <holstein> thats what i was thinking
[16:11] <persia> And the difference between the current one and the debian-GUI is presentation-only: no functional changes.
[16:11] <persia> Doing it in ubiquity is some functional work.
[16:11] <holstein> yeah, thats nice
[16:11] <holstein> just adding the GUI is easy
[16:11] <holstein> assuming the meta packages work*
[16:12] <holstein> well, we got options
[16:12] <holstein> maybe scott-work ScottL ailo_at abogani
[16:12] <holstein> whoever
[16:12] <holstein> if you get a minute to read the scroll back
[16:12] <holstein> and comment or just think it over...
[16:13] <persia> Technically, that's task selection, not metapackage selection, although the names are the same, and the tasks all include the metapackages :)
[16:14] <holstein> good point
[16:14] <holstein> that helps me understand how one can be broken
[16:14] <holstein> and not the other
[16:15] <holstein> biab...
[16:41] <scott-work> sorry it took a bit, but i read the backscroll...exciting stuff :)
[16:41] <scott-work> work is kinda crazy today since i was out yesterday :/
[16:41] <scott-work> just to pull some other threads into this conversation...
[16:41] <scott-work> i was talking with ailo_at yesterday and i made myself question the task selection part
[16:42] <scott-work> if we have reduced the number of packages that are installed, perhaps we don't even need to worry about asking for user input during installation and just install all that we feel is necessary
[16:42] <scott-work> i imagine that users would find that a live cd /graphical installation is more important that being able to pick and choose between five task selections
[16:42]  * scott-work ducks and runs for cover now
[16:43] <persia> ScottL, With the GUI I referenced, we get task selection without extra work.  With ubiquity, we lose task selection, or we have to implement something complex (and that for natty+1, because feature freeze is RSN).
[16:44] <persia> Main thing to ask about task selection is if there are serious users who don't want the audio stuff.
[16:44] <persia> At one point there were some.  I don't know about now.
[17:05] <scott-work> persia: i think this might get to the core of *what* is ubuntu studio...both from what users expect and the reasons we make it
[17:05] <scott-work> i say that not to be flippant, i'm serious
[17:05] <persia> I don't take it flippantly, and I agree.
[17:05] <scott-work> i believe we don't do anything special for video or graphics that can't be done with synaptic, software center, or apt-get install
[17:05] <persia> But while I'm happy to discuss history and theory, I leave vision and decision to you.
[17:06] <persia> I believe we don't do anything special for audio that can't be done with a package manager.
[17:06]  * scott-work runs around screaming "We're doomed!  We're doomed!"
[17:06] <scott-work> kidding
[17:06] <persia> I further believe that if we *do* anything special, we're doing it wrong.
[17:06] <persia> The point of a flavour is to express an opinion about appropriate defaults and package selection.
[17:06] <scott-work> we adjust a few settings, like user in audio group and maybe including the -lowlatency kernel once it's in the repos
[17:07] <persia> Anyone can replicate the end-state with any package manager, *but* by having a flavour, people are saved the effort of doing so, and it Just Works.
[17:07] <scott-work> but this furthers my point: we would someone download a larger image, have to use a dvd, loose the live aspect of it, just to have gimp installed?
[17:08] <scott-work> when you can download a smaller, live cd, install it quicker with a fancy gui and less clicks and then add gimp?
[17:08] <scott-work> s/we/why
[17:10] <scott-work> i think our brand is audio and we tune the distro to it, we are even discussing a live dvd so that people can make sure their hardware works
[17:11] <ailo_at> I think puredyne has a nice combination.  You get both a slimmer version and a full version. DVD's can be tough to burn. USB will not work for everyone.
[17:11] <ailo_at> So, they cover all those problems
[17:12] <ailo_at> Main reason why I stopped installing US from DVD was I often got some corruption when burning, so it failed to install at some point
[17:12] <ailo_at> I'm checking out puredyne again to try performance.
[17:13] <ailo_at> It's 9.11, based on Karmic.
[17:14] <persia> If puredyne is based on Ubuntu, someone ought scavenge it for nifty patches :)
[17:14] <persia> ScottL, If the brand is audio, then yes, all the non-audio stuff doesn't matter at all.
[17:14] <persia> The interesting question is whether the brand is audio.
[17:17] <scott-work> persia: what was the demand previously for non-audio applications?
[17:17] <persia> There were a number of folk interested in video and video applications.
[17:18] <persia> And there was some work done to improve support for tablets, improve gimp/inkscape/etc. as tools, and otherwise ensure the quality of the experience for graphics production.
[17:18] <persia> I have no idea about user counts.
[17:19] <persia> Asking this a different way: who cares for firewire permissions, blender interfaces, tablet support, testing of inkscape/gimp/etc. if not Ubuntu Studio?
[17:20] <persia> I'm not saying we do this well today, but I wonder if it is determined to be out of scope if we can find someone else who will do this well.
[17:20] <scott-work> hmmm, good points
[17:21] <ailo_at> For myself I have very little knowledge about Video and Graphic applications, and if there are any problems setting up a system to work with those.
[17:22] <ailo_at> Fonts, formats?
[17:22] <persia> So, setting up the system isn't especially hard.  Nothing special.
[17:22] <persia> There's really two areas that get interesting:
[17:22] <persia> 1) software: do the selected tools install/run smoothly.  Is someone watching their bugs, and making sure they get upstream, etc.
[17:23] <persia> 2) hardware: do we have working support for tablets, for jog:shuttle devices, for firewire cameras, etc.  Does RAW import and SANE do what we expect?
[17:24] <persia> firewire cameras were a dispute point for a long time.  With juju it should matter less, because it's now possible to have a solution, but I don't know if anyone is testing/tweaking this.
[17:25]  * persia has no firewire cameras, nor tablets
[17:35] <scott-work> i wonder how many of these improvements (like udev rules for firewire) have made their way into ubuntu desktop as well now, maybe by simply working with upstream
[17:35] <scott-work> ?
[17:39] <persia> Some.
[17:39] <ailo_at> Since a lot of multimedia/audio distros are based on Ubuntu and each one of them is tackling the problems with what apps to include (allthough they all are somewhat similar) I don't see why Ubuntu Studio must work for everyone. That is why I like the idea of a slim Live CD with only the essential stuff on it (some apps take very little space too).
[17:39] <persia> I know of several specific cases where the necessary stuff has just happened.
[17:40] <persia> But where I'm less sure is if there is anyone regularly testing: in the past we broke wacom support at least once during each release cycle.
[17:41] <persia> ailo_at, I don't think it's interesting to consider derivatives as real alternatives for users.  I instead consider them cases where we've failed to find a useful way to cooperate with someone.
[17:43] <persia> And I doubt I'm alone in wishing that if other folk are tackling the same question of which packages to include by default, they were doing so with us.  It's not easy to find the right answer, and users aren't well served by 10 different choices, each requiring a reinstall, all based off almost identical code.
[17:44] <persia> If someone has good patches, we should be integrating those.  If it's just look&feel, surely we can come to agreement.
[17:49] <ailo_at> persia: We should identify the reasons to why people would want to choose another distro over US. I'm sure many reasons are pretty trivial. PA, though not crashing so much anymore is still not working with some chips without tweaking.
[17:51] <ailo_at> There are many things I never do on Linux, so I never see if there are issues. I never us VST plugins for instance (don't know what you need to get those working).
[17:51] <persia> PA is falsely accused in most cases.
[17:52] <ailo_at> I think the most important part for the user is that everything works without tweaking.
[17:53] <persia> But I think that we'd do better to reach out to derivatives, and find out why they are changing things, and whether we could just make a change to solve that problem so they don't need another distro, rather than trying to figure out why users might select something else.
[17:53] <ailo_at> Good point
[17:53] <persia> As a bonus, integrating with the derivatives helps to grow our team.
[17:53] <persia> And that makes it easier to make more changes, and make it better for everyone.
[17:54] <ailo_at> Yes, that would make sense. I think many of the Ubuntu based distros are at least using US kernels if they exist, like Puredyne uses the Karmic rt-kernel. Would make sense to cooperate on some levels.
[17:55] <persia> I strongly suspect that any Ubuntu derivative is using mostly Ubuntu packages.  Some of them have patches, some may have new upstreams, etc.
[17:55] <persia> Most of that work is stuff that we would have done if we had the time/effort/skill
[17:55] <persia> Some of the rest is horrid hacks for which there are better solutions, although more difficult
[17:56] <persia> e.g. fluxbuntu does a lot with dpkg-divert, rather than looking at general solutions, in part because they don't have the time/effort/skill to do it right.
[17:56] <persia> (nothing against fluxbuntu: nice guys, doing interesting things, but limited time makes for less-than-ideal choices sometimes)
[17:57] <persia> And the last bit tends to be branding, themes, etc.
[17:57] <persia> If folk want to do the branding/themes/etc., I think that's fine, and more power to them.
[17:57] <persia> I'd like to have a list of the horrid hacks, so we could try to address them over time (might be a while).
[17:57] <persia> For everything else, I think it ought be done in Ubuntu.
[18:02] <ailo_at> If I've understood correctly realtime will be achived in a secure way in the future (rtkit, right?), and that that will need no further "hacking" in that area (but I suppose all the apps using realtime will need to be updated). Firewire is supposed to work now, thought it won't work with jackd without audio group. What else is there that is a hack now?
[18:08] <persia> I don't have a complete list of hacks.
[18:08] <persia> What about firewire doesn't work without the "audio" group?
[18:08] <persia> Is that the memlock stuff, or is it broken udev rules?
[18:11] <ailo_at> persia: Firewire will work with jack, but not in realtime, at least that is what I was told from testing. Holstein tried it.
[18:12] <ailo_at> Without audio group
[18:12] <persia> Ah, that's two issues.
[18:12] <persia> 1) jack needs porting to rtkit
[18:13] <persia> 2) jack wants memlock support, and there's no memkit, nor does rtkit support memlock.
[18:13] <persia> Nothing to do with firewire.
[18:13] <ailo_at> Just tried Puredyne i386 version on a AMD64 machine. I get roughly the same performance as with the -lowlatency kernel.
[18:15] <ailo_at> Roughly the same performance as with Natty and the -lowlatency that is
[18:16] <ailo_at> This was using a live USB made with Unetbootin.
[18:16] <persia> OK.  Let's turn that into something actionable.
[18:16] <ailo_at> So, I don't think there aught to be any performance problems, other than that apps may take longer to load.
[18:16] <persia> So, which kernel was that?  If not 2.6.38, what happens with a 2.6.38 kernel?
[18:16] <persia> What is the kernel configuration?  Are there things we should consider adjusting?
[18:17] <persia> How is the live environment constructed?  How does that compare with how Ubuntu does live environments?  Do we believe we can generate a similar experience?
[18:17] <ailo_at> persia: Puredyne, with Karmic -rt kernel. Same as UbuntuStudio Karmic (sorry if I am confusing you)
[18:18] <persia> I'm not confused: I'm only asserting that the results you collected are not actionable in terms of Ubuntu Studio Natty.
[18:18] <persia> So, while interesting, this means they don't translate into a way we can improve things, nor do they necessarily indicate that we should or would expect similar results.
[18:18] <ailo_at> I've used the Puredyne before, and I get the same performance when installing on Hard Disk as well. This was around 2.5ms latency.
[18:24] <ailo_at> I have no idea about how they make the iso. Never done that myself. They use their own script to create a live USB on which you can install programs.
[18:26] <persia> Right.  Needs comparison of that script to the ones Ubuntu uses for the live environment.
[18:27] <persia> There may be differences in how they do things that impact performance.
[18:28] <ailo_at> Here's the script that creates the live device (usb) http://paste.ubuntu.com/568364/
[18:30] <ailo_at> I tried running the script on Maverick, and it didn't work. Either on Karmic or Lucid (could be they updated it since).
[18:30] <ailo_at> They're working on a gui app for it too
[18:31] <ailo_at> If you have bzr installed you can just do "bzr branch lp:bouilloncube" to get the whole thing
[18:33] <persia> The process by which they generate the bootable image isn't the interesting part.  The interesting part is the set of scripts that are used on boot to create the live experience.
[18:38] <ailo_at> persia: Get the ISO maker scripts "bzr branch lp:broth"
[18:40] <persia> I'm in the middle of a few things just now.  Maybe you could look, and compare?
[18:40] <ailo_at> Wheres the Ubuntu script?
[18:43] <persia> livecd-rootfs constructs the liveFS, and casper has the master control scripts that perform the limited installation-like steps to turn that into a live environment (like creating the user "ubuntu", etc.)
[18:55] <ailo_at> Could this be a place to start? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
[20:21] <scott-work> maybe we should solicit some ideas from users to see what they desire
[20:24] <scott-work> the more i think about this maybe we should ask
[20:24] <scott-work> we have lots of ideas:  live media, updates for -controls, maybe an upgrade pacakge
[20:25] <scott-work> would be nice to know that we are aligned with user's wants
[20:26] <ailo_at> scott-work: Maybe we could ask on lau list. Ask them what they think is most important with a multimedia distro? And what about Graphics and Video, where is the forum for those people?
[20:27] <scott-work> LAU would be a good place to ask for a generalized audience, we can also hit the ubuntustudio-user and ubuntustudio-devel lists as well
[20:27] <scott-work> post in ubuntu forums
[20:28] <scott-work> i've already started a loose questioning in other channels i frequent
[20:28] <scott-work> we might also be able to turn this into a recruiting tool
[20:28] <scott-work> if someone is feeling very strongly about a particular item, we can invite them to help do it :)
[20:28] <scott-work> especially if what they feel strongly about is in the minority and we can't devote enough people to it
[20:29] <ailo_at> Sounds like good ideas to me
[20:29] <scott-work> my first reaction is to list some of the ideas we have, then to ask people what the  most pressing idea is to them, even if it isn't on that list
[20:30] <ailo_at> I think asking other distro people, like persia suggested is a good thing too.
[20:30] <scott-work> or should be just ask them cold..."what would you like to see improved in ubuntu studio?"
[20:30] <scott-work> after february and rpm challenge i wanted to distro hop a few to see what they are doing
[20:30] <scott-work> but we could certainly email them and see if we can incorprate what they do
[20:30] <persia> ailo_at, I think they are different exercises.  Asking users is just general feedback.  Talking to derivatives should be focused clearly on recruiting: we need to understand why they aren't part of Ubuntu Studio, and fix that.
[20:30] <scott-work> mcinnis from dream studio has already contacted me about a few things
[20:36] <scott-work> persia: i would like for us to contact other distros and ask them for collaboration, that is a great idea to foster innovation, improvement, and development :)
[20:36] <scott-work> this is analogous as "upstream" asking for patches
[20:52] <scott-work> i'd like to also play with linux mint and crunch bang as "bases" to build a recording setup during march, to just experiement while i am also playing with avlinux, kxstudio, dream studio, et al
[20:53] <persia> I'm not sure you'll encounter much difference for derivatives that don't focus on audio production.
[20:54] <persia> It's probably just our packages.
[20:55] <ailo_at> As I've said before, I would like all these people to collaborate at least on the "under the hood" stuff.
[20:56] <ailo_at> The multimedia based distro people that is
[20:59] <falktx> ailo_at: i'm already starting to contribute
[20:59] <scott-work> ailo_at: i think that most of the derivatives are not really into the "under the hood" stuff except for falk
[20:59] <scott-work> lol, there he is
[20:59] <falktx> ailo_at: scott-work: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6603/scr004.jpg
[20:59] <falktx> hehe
[20:59] <falktx> ^ that is my new tool - a multi-plugin host
[21:00]  * falktx stole the knobs from calf... :)
[21:00] <falktx> the LV2 is killing me
[21:02] <ailo_at> Looks nice. Will vst plugs work too?
[21:04] <falktx> ailo_at: yes, windows plugins too
[21:04] <falktx> native and windows
[21:04] <falktx> ailo_at: I also want to support LMMS plugins
[21:04] <falktx> ailo_at: the gui is written in python, and uses (loads) a backend c++ code, making it possible to use many type of plugins (native, windows, native 32bit on 64bit, etc)
[21:05] <ailo_at> Nice to have everything in one place.
[21:32] <scott-work> if we are going to talk to derivatives of ubuntu studio and solicit collaboration, which distros are these?
[21:33] <scott-work> someone mentioned pure-dyne or dyne-bolic?
[21:33] <scott-work> tango studio is one i belive
[21:33] <scott-work> av linux is another i believe
[21:33] <scott-work> and dream studio
[21:36] <ailo_at> scott-work: With KXStudio, those are the only ones I know of. Puredyne has their own irc channel and mail list. Both are low traffic, but the guys in charge I think are on them both.
[21:37] <ailo_at> I know PureDyne do some kernel hacking, but they chose to use the Karmic -rt kernel for their last release.


[10:57] <darkmatter> coz_: next gdm is looking slick http://people.gnome.org/~halfline/shell-login-with-onscreen-keyboard.ogg
[10:57] <darkmatter> :D
[10:58] <coz_> nice
[10:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  is that you reflected there? :)
[10:58] <darkmatter> no
[10:58] <darkmatter> video  off a dev blog
[10:58] <coz_> ah ok
[10:58] <darkmatter> i'm better looking ;p
[10:58] <coz_> :)
[10:59] <darkmatter> keyboard needs centering thogh
[10:59] <coz_> yeah i see that
[11:03] <coz_> be back in a bit ,, have to get to the store


[03:43] <JackDanielsXLS> why?
 Hi, How can I see Network Rate, Upload and Download Speed on Kubuntu 23.04, KDE Plasma 5.27.4?
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/8fe15b48/file_72621.jpg
 I wish to mean: my KDE System Monitor Network Rate y Freze at Zero.
 and it also happens that the dialog box: Authentication Required - PolicyKit1 KDE Agent. System policy prevents Wi-Fi scans.
 Is it normal that this happens every time or maybe there is a way to make sure it doesn't appear anymore...?
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/8b90b800/file_72622.jpg
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/284d3ca5/file_72623.jpg
[06:04] <Your_Dog> jesusguevara: No, in a default install on my end, I do not get that
 Thanks by answer, Could you please tell me what do yo wan to mean..?
[13:33] <BluesKaj> Hi all


[02:59] <DarkwingDuck> jbicha: Hey, remember when you asked for a citation about OMG Ubuntu not being a community project? I couldn't find what I was looking for so, I asked @omgubuntu (on twitter) If they were a community project and here was the reply: https://twitter.com/#!/omgubuntu/status/69569988259885056
[04:18] <Captainkrtek> hey guys
[04:22] <Captainkrtek> isnt the string freeze tomorrow?
[04:24] <DarkwingDuck> Hmmz?
[04:24] <DarkwingDuck> No, I'm not even sure we have a release schedule for Oneiric yet.
[04:25] <DarkwingDuck> I take that back.
[04:25] <DarkwingDuck> Release schedule https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule
[04:26] <DarkwingDuck> Captainkrtek: September 15th is the doc string freeze
[04:27] <Captainkrtek> oh?
[04:27] <Captainkrtek> thought  I saw something...
[04:27] <Captainkrtek> oh wrong thing
[04:28] <DarkwingDuck> XD
[04:28] <Captainkrtek> was looking at #ubuntu-manual http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/KvXHj1XROp
[04:28] <Captainkrtek> maverick freeze is today
[12:39] <jbicha> j1mc: good morning, back at home?
[12:39] <j1mc> jbicha: yeah
[12:39] <j1mc> made it back yesterday late in the day
[12:39] <j1mc> did you get my message to the ayatana list? i had never heard of ubuntu tour.
[12:39] <j1mc> and they already have a maverick and natty release w/translations.
[12:40] <jbicha> I hadn't really either, although it was mentioned on omgubuntu last year
[12:40] <j1mc> yeah... and it made sense then, back when we were mostly silent
[12:40] <jbicha> mm, I tried the "daily build" yesterday and it wasn't natty
[12:40] <jbicha> their code hasn't had a commit in a month
[12:41] <j1mc> oh... well, i just checked their launchpad page to see ... what? that's not what i saw
[12:41] <j1mc> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tour
[12:41]  * pleia2 hugs j1mc
[12:41] <j1mc> 30 hours ago
[12:41] <jbicha> automated translation import
[12:41] <j1mc> pleia2: :)  thanks fo rthe hugs
[12:42] <pleia2> was nice to finally meet you :)
[12:42] <j1mc> pleia2: it was good hanging out w/ you at uds.
[12:42] <j1mc> yeah
[12:42] <jbicha> oh, I guess 26 Apr isn't a month
[12:42] <j1mc> jbicha: well, point taken. anyway... we will get going so people will want to join our team again. :)
[12:43] <j1mc> like you did
[12:43] <jbicha> the maverick build had some interesting ideas like detecting which browsers were installed but it had a lot of rough edges too
[12:43] <jbicha> you know, blogging to the Ubuntu planet helps a lot with awareness, I read your posts there
[12:45] <j1mc> yeah, i would like a team blog.
[12:45] <j1mc> i actually pulled down a team-maintained WP theme from launchpad this morning
[12:49] <jbicha> like this? https://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/
[12:53] <j1mc> yes, but with an ubuntu theme
[12:56] <j1mc> i don't really fault that project for starting up... we weren't doing much.
[12:56] <j1mc> i might have started something, too.
[12:56] <j1mc> ok... i need some breakfast.  :)
[12:58] <pleia2> j1mc: I'm with you re: food at uds, not sure how I'm going to top breakfast here now :)
[12:58] <jbicha> it looks like you have to self-host to use your own theme, so that's a bit more expensive
[12:59] <j1mc> jbicha: i have a hosting plan i'm currently using. we could probably just piggyback on that.
[12:59] <j1mc> jbicha: well, we can talk about it.
[13:00] <j1mc> it would be a 'nice-to-have' feature
[13:00] <j1mc> pleia2: surprised you are awake now. hope you find some good grub. :)
[13:00] <j1mc> jbicha: later. :)
[13:01] <pleia2> j1mc: yeah, it's 5am, jetlag is fun


[02:15] <kklimonda> hmm.. wrt new indicator-sound - haven't it already been tried to display it sideways ? people are going to scream - are there any good nontechnical reasons why is it done this way?
[04:37] <vish> kklimonda: thats the _new_  design ;)  > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoundMenu
[04:37] <kklimonda> vish, right - and haven't it already be done at some point?
[04:38] <kklimonda> I remember people complaining about this layout then
[04:39] <vish> kklimonda: well , earlier the change was done by the applet itself.. but not designed by the design team so its new now ;p  ... j/k     anyways , i'm not sure how you can get both the vertical slider and the options in one menu
[04:40] <vish> kklimonda: do note that the right click options now need to be present with the left click itself , so its a compromise
[04:41] <vish> kklimonda: mpt might be _the_ person to answer your questions though :)
[04:41] <kklimonda> I know but it sounds like "well, we have created a spec that doesn't really work so now we have to compromise" - that's what I'm going to hear in few days or weeks when more people see it :)
[04:43] <kklimonda> changes like this should come with the manual how to defend them ;)
[04:43] <vish> lol
[15:22] <jakubo> hi
[15:23] <jakubo> i was redirected from ubuntu+1 irc here for the request of removing the left click menu on rhythmbox in upper taskbar
[15:23] <qense> jakubo: What would you like to do it else?
[15:23] <jakubo> just the way it was before
[15:23] <jakubo> left click mean open the window
[15:24] <jakubo> right click does everything else
[15:24] <jakubo> especially reight click for clsing rhythmbox in task bar.....
[15:24] <jakubo> im sry but its driving me nuts
[15:24] <qense> jakubo: I'm afraid we can't honour your request. This new systray icon is a new feature of Ubuntu Lucid. We're working on getting a consistent approach to the system tray, which means that all right-click context menus were removed.
[15:25] <qense> This is desired behaviour.
[15:25] <jakubo> please tell me its a joke...
[15:26] <qense> jakubo: no, it's meant to improve the systray and make it more consistent and easier to fine tune
[15:26] <jakubo> have you tried it or are you using other programs?
[15:27] <qense> I'm actively using it and even working on porting applications to this new standard, actually.
[15:27] <jakubo> please dont tell me the volume manager will ask you whethre you want to open the volume manager on left click, im sry but i cant really take it serious...
[15:27] <qense> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators contains the specification
[15:27] <qense> jakubo: yes, the volume manager will do that as well
[15:28] <jakubo> actually i was kidding about this....
[15:28] <qense> ?
[15:28] <jakubo> you invest manpower for reduction of usability?
[15:28] <qense> No, we see it as an improvement of usability.
[15:29] <qense> I agree that it isn't fun to change your habits, but eventually this should make your life a lot easier.
[15:29] <jakubo> to open the rhythmbox window you need to hit 3 precise clicks instead of one
[15:29] <qense> three? I thought it was two.
[15:29] <jakubo> yes but the window isnt in front so you need to search it in the lower taskbar and click on it
[15:30] <qense> jakubo: That's worth a bug report, if it's not already reported.
[15:31] <jakubo> then please do it yourself i think this is madness and im not going to contribute to this
[15:32] <qense> jakubo: if you don't like it I'd suggest to remove the indicator applet from your panel. Then the library will use the fall-back and create the previously default GtkStatusIcon systray icon.
[15:33] <jakubo> ok sounds fair
[15:33] <jakubo> but i will have these messages displayed wont i?
[15:33] <qense> The whole messaging applet will be gone as well without the indicator applet.
[15:33] <jakubo> these black boxes displaying messages
[15:34] <jakubo> great...
[15:34] <qense> It's integrated.
[15:35] <jakubo> do you think its an improvement or why did you say so?
[15:35] <qense> I do think that is an improvement, otherwise I wouldn't have said that.
[15:36] <jakubo> but you do see my point?
[15:37] <qense> jakubo: I agree that it is annoying to change habits, but I don't think that it is so bad and that eventually it will turn out to work better.
[15:39] <jakubo> so what exactly is the benefit?
[15:41] <qense> Integration with KDE (both ways), consistent behaviour, consistent looks (icon theming for the tray only is now possible), easier navigation (arrow keys can be used to navigate between different tray icons), easier to manage in the tray (when we adapt the tray to work better we don't have to adapt all applications, we just process the data we get from the applications differently)
[15:42] <jakubo> sounds to me like improvements in programming
[15:42] <tgpraveen12> jakubo: when u see the finished product in lucid final
[15:42] <tgpraveen12> and how it all integrates together maybe then u will appreciate it
[15:43] <jakubo> i hope too, otherwise id be dissappointed
[15:44] <jakubo> is that the reason why there is no skype in the repos?
[15:45] <qense> jakubo: No, we don't ban applications from the repos when they don't use it.
[15:45] <qense> Skype cannot be included in the repositories because of its license.
[15:45] <qense> They don't allow us to, iirc.


[01:05] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jonathan Riddell] Cloud Packaging, CD Download Page Bling, Texas Weather, Choqok Message Indicator - http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4374
[01:29] <lalilililili> @seek yeats
[01:30] <lalilililili> whoops :3
[05:28] <lazarus_> http://img141.imageshack.us/i/screenshotzn.png/
[07:27] <Myrtti> moin
[07:48] <AlanBell> morning all
[08:17] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:33] <DJones> Morning
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> howdy
[09:04] <BigRedS> G'morning!
[09:10] <Myrtti> how appropriate. BigRedS' nick is actually red in my irssi.
[09:12] <BigRedS> Ah, but is it big?
[09:13] <Myrtti> fairly so, it's in bold
[09:14] <DJones> Its sort of pinkish on mine
[09:15] <czajkowski> AlanBell: which train do I get again ?
[09:16] <Myrtti> brainlapse of the morning is that I considered cutpasting a piece of the log to show it's red and big. took about a minute while drinking coffee to realise the colors won't stick to the log excerpt :-D
[09:16] <DJones> screenshot + imagebin would work
[09:16] <Myrtti> sure
[09:16] <czajkowski> Myrtti: morning!
[09:17] <BigRedS> haha
[09:17] <Myrtti> czajkowski: ohai
[09:17] <Laney> does RB import to ~/Music/ by default?
[09:18] <Myrtti> I don't know if the problem is with the water or with the coffee or the coffee machine but ohmy the coffee is horrible, so I blame the coffee for lack of brain
[09:18] <BigRedS> Laney: Always has wanted to for me
[09:18] <czajkowski> right to London I go
[09:18] <Laney> ty
[09:18] <DJones> Are you back in the UK Myrtti
[09:19] <Creaky-Bore> ok folks, here one for anybody... PulseAudio how can you set priority on connected hardware? For example, if a USB microphone is connected use that automatically in preference to inbuilt hardware? Cant find anything on the Sound panel to allow this...
[09:19] <Myrtti> DJones: Berlin atm
[09:23] <AlanBell> czajkowski 10:04
[09:23] <BigRedS> Should be an easy enough time to remember...
[09:25] <DJones> Heh, I can just see her going to the station and asking for a ticket on the Lucid Lynx to London :)
[09:27] <AlanBell> I can see her catching the earlier one that doesn't stop at clapham
[09:41] <screen-x> morning :)
[09:42] <kvarley> lo
[09:48] <popey> MORNING!
[09:48] <screen-x> shh popey
[09:48] <bigcalm> Good morning!
[09:48] <Myrtti> moar coffee
[09:48] <bigcalm> Myrtti: !!
[09:49] <popey> happy happy joy joy
[09:49] <popey> I am in an annoyingly good mood today
[09:50] <popey> be warned
[09:50] <bigcalm> Run and hide
[09:50] <bigcalm> popey: it's good to be happy
[09:50] <bigcalm> popey: what happened?
[09:53] <popey> bigcalm: lots of personal stuff
[09:53] <bigcalm> Fair do
[09:53] <bigcalm> Spread a little joy :)
[09:55] <popey> also!
[09:55] <popey> I have a project at work to write something, and I am going to use python
[09:55] <popey> where everyone else uses bash
[09:55] <bigcalm> Ooooo
[09:55] <screen-x> hisssssss
[09:56] <bigcalm> I sadly do so in PHP these days
[09:56] <directhex> you should use erlang.
[09:56] <Myrtti> popey: I can balance it out by being grumpy
[09:57] <Myrtti> that seems to be my default mode of existance nowadays
[09:57] <Myrtti> so it requires no extra effort
[09:57] <bigcalm> Myrtti: I am very happy to see you back on IRC *hugs* (hope this makes you a little less grumpy)
[09:57] <screen-x> any idea which raid card this is? http://paste.ubuntu.com/553540/
[09:57] <screen-x> I need to download the proprietary monitoring thing, but that requires knowing which model it is.
[09:58] <Myrtti> bigcalm: I've never really gone away, I just pick and choose the channels I deem to not make me grumpier
[09:58] <Myrtti> today the preconception is that -uk might fit the bill
[09:58] <bigcalm> This is a happy channel where everybody is nice to everybody else
[09:59]  * popey hugs Myrtti
[09:59] <DJones> bigcalm: You make it sound like Cheers
[10:00] <bigcalm> DJones: I like to go where everybody knows ones name
[10:01] <screen-x> got it, it's a 5445.
[10:01] <bigcalm> Now I'm imagining an episode of Cheers where the cast are replaced by members of the royal family
[10:02] <AlanBell> choo choo
[10:02] <screen-x> off up to london AlanBell?
[10:03] <bigcalm> Ok, today is off to a mad start. AlanBell thinks that he is a train
[10:03] <screen-x> bigcalm: he has been fraternising with poultry.
[10:04] <BigRedS> Is that legal?
[10:04] <screen-x> not like that BigRedS :p
[10:04] <BigRedS> Ah, good :) haha
[10:06] <AlanBell> no czajkowski at the station
[10:07] <bigcalm> Maybe she went home to tidy up
[10:34] <danfish> morning all
[10:34] <danfish> anyone using geany for editing?
[10:35] <danfish> for some reason it's shoving tabs instead of spaces into my python code :(
[10:37] <Myrtti> I use it occasionally when I'm bored with my pink emacs
[10:38] <Myrtti> danfish: you've changed the intendation type in the settings and it's not doing it the way you want?
[10:44] <danfish> Myrtti: yep - keeps on 'tabbing' still
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> I love the future: http://googlemobile.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-look-for-google-translate-for.html
[10:47] <Myrtti> danfish: :-/ is there a bug filed about it yet?
[10:47] <danfish> there will be :)
[12:04] <screen-x> popey: http://paste.ubuntu-uk.org/ --> "Unable to connect to database"
[12:04] <popey> http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/
[12:04] <popey> it has never been paste.ubuntu-uk.org
[12:07] <screen-x> oh, memory fail
[12:08] <screen-x> I'm looking for libstdc++.so.5, can't find it with apt-file or apt-cache (http://paste.ubuntu.com/553569/) Where should I look next?
[12:08] <dutchie> packages.ubuntu.com?
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> yikes
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> that's old
[12:09] <screen-x> yeah :(
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> why are you looking for it?
[12:09] <directhex> comes from g++ 3.3
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> you found a tablet from the late stone age?
[12:10] <screen-x> MartijnVdS: see paste, required for a proprietary hw raid monitor.
[12:10] <MartijnVdS> screen-x: maybe in the old (6.06?) repos?
[12:10] <directhex> you need libstdc++5
[12:10] <directhex> package name
[12:10] <directhex> it's in universe
[12:11] <screen-x> directhex: thanks
[12:12] <directhex> http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/libstdc++5
[12:13] <screen-x> how strange, it isn't in lucid.
[12:13] <directhex> lucid-backports
[12:16] <screen-x> yay, package from backports did the trick, thanks :)
[12:16] <screen-x> odd to have to go to a new release to get a really old lib!
[12:47] <Guest70853> Hello
[12:57] <fr0styy> .
[12:57] <screen-x>                                         |
[12:58] <fr0styy> Testing ...1...2...3
[12:59] <screen-x> fr0styy: I thought you were starting a game of irc pong http://www.bash.org/?9322
[13:00] <fr0styy> screen-x: You must be mistaken buddy ^^
[13:01] <fr0styy> screen-x:Though it looks like fun :O
[13:12] <fr0styy> Immagine actually hearing the conversation? http://www.bash.org/?99835
[13:13] <screen-x> fr0styy: apologies if I have destroyed your afternoon, with a link to bash.org...
[13:14] <fr0styy> huh? no way, i just found another funny one :P
[13:23] <brobostigon> afternoonings all.
[13:58] <aquarius> AlanBell, ping :)
[13:58] <popey> :)
[14:05] <krimzon2> is there a convenient way to manage which users belong to which groups on the command line?
[14:05] <popey> yes
[14:05] <popey> vi /etc/group
[14:05] <popey> :)
[14:06] <screen-x> alt-middle click resizes windows without having to grab a 1px border \o/
[14:06] <screen-x> shame most track pads don't have middle buttons..
[14:07] <dutchie> popey: :o vigrp surely
[14:07] <dutchie> vigr*
[14:07] <krimzon2> no "list_groups_user_is_in", "add_user_to_group", "remove_user_from_group" type stuff?
[14:08] <screen-x> krimzon2: read the man page for addgroup, it has some other useful commands under see also.
[14:09] <krimzon2> ahh, i see
[14:12] <cps> Afternoon :)
[14:13] <brobostigon> afternoonings cps :)
[14:13] <cps> I got a new thinkpad to replace the loose gpu one :)
[14:14] <brobostigon> :)
[14:14] <cps> amazon were very speedy in dealing with the case
[14:14] <gord> oh dear, loose gpu?
[14:14] <cps> gord, widely known in the thinkpad community
[14:14] <cps> I was unfortunate enough to get one with a loose gpu :(
[14:15] <cps> but I sent that one back and got another one :)
[14:15] <screen-x> seems to be a prob with [XT]4. models.
[14:15]  * cps loves the little keyboard light at the top of the screen :p
[14:26]  * awilkins needs to chill out before his head explodes
[14:29] <X3N> it's actually surprisingly useful cps ;)
[14:30] <cps> ergh
[14:30] <cps> couple of panel applets just segfaulted
[14:30] <cps> I didn't know panel applets can segfault anyway
[14:32]  * danfish is doing a wart clinic today so directs some liquid nitrogen at awilkins's head
[14:32] <freckle> Just had a conversation with the people who look after the systems the office people use... they are looking at Ubuntu virtualisation.. woohoo
[14:32] <freckle> well they are lookiing at it after I told them they could do it
[14:33]  * cps has defected to fedora
[14:33] <ali1234> are they looking at it like it's "all covered with ants?"
[14:35] <popey> cps: how is that working out
[14:35] <cps> popey, excellent at the moment
[14:36] <popey> what made you switch?
[14:36] <cps> just felt I needed to try something new
[14:36] <cps> somehow I feel fedora's better than ubuntu
[14:37] <KrisDouglas> cps: it always feels unfinished for me
[14:37] <ali1234> i have to agree
[14:37] <ali1234> last time i tried fedora the package manager was broken immediately after install
[14:37] <popey> i haven't tried it for years
[14:38] <ali1234> i consider fedora to be the red hat equivalent of ubuntu+1
[14:38] <KrisDouglas> yeah
[14:38] <bigcalm> With dd-wrt, how do you nail a device to an ip address?
[14:38] <ali1234> then, if i want a rpm based distro that actually works, i use centos
[14:38] <KrisDouglas> I quite like cent
[14:38] <danfish> bigcalm: define 'nail'
[14:39] <cps> danfish, I think m
[14:39] <cps> oops
[14:39] <KrisDouglas> danfish: he means static IP i believe
[14:39] <X3N> I tried fedora 14, but I missed debs and lots of the "it just works" elements of ubuntu
[14:39] <cps> KrisDouglas, yes
[14:39] <bigcalm> danfish: I want to ensure that certain devices always get the same address from dhcp
[14:39] <cps> err...
[14:39] <danfish> ok - you can assign static ips based on MAC address
[14:40] <KrisDouglas> bigcalm: You can also fix the IP on the clientside in the networking config
[14:40] <bigcalm> With other routers I've used, they will list the attached devices and allow you to stick them there
[14:40] <ali1234> http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Static_DHCP
[14:40] <bigcalm> KrisDouglas: I'd rather do it from one location than on many devices
[14:40] <bigcalm> ali1234: ta
[14:41] <ali1234> yes, static config on each device sucks
[14:41] <bigcalm> Ah, so you need two windows open, one with the list of mac addresses, the other to set up the leases
[14:41] <bigcalm> Slightly irritating
[14:42] <cps> lol
[14:42] <ali1234> yeah irritating if you use some rubbish window manager like unity, gnome-shell, or os x
[14:42] <cps> os x != window manager
[14:43] <popey> i suspect you know what ali1234 means by that
[14:43] <ali1234> does the os x window manager even have a name?
[14:43] <brobostigon> netiher is gnome-shell a WM, its mutter.
[14:43] <ali1234> unity isn't either
[14:44] <ali1234> LOL I TROLL U ALL
[14:44] <ali1234> nobody even claimed that unity isn't rubbish :'(
[14:44] <cps> unity looks rubbish to me
[14:44] <bigcalm> Unity needs time and development. Right now it is not useable
[14:45] <gord> unity is currently in alpha
[14:45] <gord> that means its no where near finished
[14:46] <DJones> I thought beta was considered to be "nowhere near finished", with alpha being broken, occasionally working
[14:46] <cps> +`
[14:46] <cps> +1*
[14:46] <cps> alpha software just works when it wants to work, really
[14:46] <ali1234> alpha, beta, rc... it all means different things to different people
[14:46] <gord> beta is "lets find bugs", alpha "lets actually finish this thing"
[14:46] <gord> in terms of ubuntu
[14:47] <ali1234> beta is usually supposed to be feature complete
[14:48] <dutchie> daubers: bank problems? :(
[14:50] <cps> oh lawd
[14:50] <cps> apparently a new fake antivirus was made in october last year
[14:50] <cps> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPoint
[14:53] <popey> there's loads of them
[14:53] <Myrtti> is installing Adobe Air to 64-bit ubuntu really as hard as Adobe claims it is?
[14:55] <jpds> Myrtti: http://archive.canonical.com/pool/partner/a/adobeair/
[14:55] <jpds> Myrtti: No.
[14:55] <popey> i see no 64-bit version there
[14:56] <bigcalm> That's irrirtating. All of the static leases are empty
[14:56] <jpds> She asked how about installing Adobe Air to 64-bit Ubuntu.
[14:57]  * popey picks up jpds and puts him in #pedant
[14:58] <Myrtti> "thanks"
[14:59] <jpds> Myrtti: "Bitte".
[15:00] <directhex> use the .run
[15:00] <directhex> should work
[15:03] <Myrtti> I suppose I'll do that then.
[15:08] <cps> hey tuxxy :)
[15:14] <Myrtti> right. Well I'm not installing Air, it seems.
[15:15] <Myrtti> ho-hum.
[15:15] <Myrtti> segmentation fault  ./AdobeAIRInstaller.bin
[15:15] <BigRedS> I don't think I've ever felt the need for Air. what does it do?
[15:15] <popey> nothing useful I have discovered
[15:15] <BigRedS> I keep seeing mention of it's badness...
[15:15] <jpds> BigRedS: Keeps you alive?
[15:15] <Myrtti> tweetdeck and old seesmic desktop
[15:15] <KrisDouglas> Does anyone have any idea about why a XenServer would not have passed through the NX bit to an Ubuntu host?
[15:15] <BigRedS> No, that's air. Tsk. Case-insensitive jpds...
[15:16] <diplo> Myrtti, they have a Chrome web app now for TweetDeck ?
[15:16] <Myrtti> *sigh* I suppose I should try that too
[15:16] <Myrtti> oh well.
[15:17] <diplo> http://www.tweetdeck.com/chrome/
[15:17] <Myrtti> back to studying QML
[15:30] <Myrtti> mwahaha. --force-architecture.
[15:31] <popey> :)
[16:38] <moonraker> hello
[16:39] <Myrtti> I'm really getting hyped about this Qt lark
[16:47] <daubers> dutchie: Yup! Went to the bank to discuss stuff, had a person sit there and relay everything I said to someone else on the other end of the phone. Waste. of. time
[16:47] <dutchie> wow
[16:47] <dutchie> this is pretty bad
[16:48] <daubers> Indeed. Started the process of changing banks already
[16:49] <Myrtti> I personally can't understand what prevents a bank from doing a reservation of a money transfer to abroad to a EU/ETA country outside office hours...
[16:50] <Myrtti> on web banking
[16:51] <Myrtti> I had to pay the rent for this Berlin apartment from my account because Finnish banks can do such reservations, and they do the computer runs on sun-mo to thu-fri nights, no matter if it's a bank holiday or not, unlike HSBC
[16:51] <daubers> Myrtti: Nothing. They just like to make things more difficult so you end up having to pay them more in charges and what not
[16:52] <Myrtti> I can somewhat understand why HSBC charges £9 for transferring money to an EU/ETA country, but I don't understand the time restriction
[16:53] <Myrtti> (my bank charges nothing, but that's because Finland is an EU/ETA country itself, I suspect)
[16:53] <Myrtti> or euro country rather
[16:53] <Myrtti> (or SEPA)
[16:55] <MartijnVdS> Euro countries \o/
[16:57] <Myrtti> oh bother, it's raining something outside :-(
[17:01] <BigRedS> Myrtti: as I understand it, it's because banks like to know what's happening in advance, and there's no real pressure for them to do things quicker
[18:25] <jacobw> evening
[18:26] <brobostigon> evening jacobw
[18:46] <filo1234> hi all i have got a curiosity...when i leave a message on login screen, "leave a message" ...this message whre is stored?
[19:12] <shauno> filo1234: it doesn't look like it is stored.  it just passes it straight to libnotify, which creates the message on your desktop.  but sets it to not expire, so it's still there waiting when you get back
[19:12] <filo1234> where are storeds gnome-screensaver-dialog messages?
[19:13] <filo1234> shauno: it passed to libnotify only when i make login? or there is some tmp file where is stored?
[19:13] <shauno> it looks like it's passed as soon as the note is left
[19:14] <shauno> so it opens up the notification on your desktop there and then.  you just can't see it because the screensaver is still in the way
[19:14] <filo1234> shauno: sure but maybe is possible o see it from tty console?
[19:14] <filo1234> to*
[19:16] <filo1234> shauno: i grepped my word on the message but i cannot find anything
[19:17] <shauno> I'm not sure.  I think it'd involve listening to dbus while the message is being sent from gnome-screensaver to the notification daemon  (eg, when they hit submit)
[19:18] <shauno> not sure how you'd do that, I've no idea how dbus works :)  just reading submit_note() in gs-lock-plug.c
[19:19] <filo1234> :) ok thanks a lot for attention :)
[19:21] <AlanBell> evening all
[19:22] <dogmatic69> sup
[19:22] <brobostigon> evening AlanBell
[19:23]  * AlanBell is sitting down with a rather tasty 17 year old
[19:23] <AlanBell> single malt
[19:24] <davmor2> AlanBell: I was about to say if it's a chicken don't eat it :P
[19:24] <brobostigon> yummy,
[19:25] <dogmatic69> lol
[19:31] <fr0styy> G'evening everyone! :)
[19:33] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/cc116e3b-970d-4bf9-9dca-80a238e8b77d.jpg
[19:33] <krle> hi
[19:34] <dogmatic69> o/
[19:34] <krle> not sure if i should ask here but would you guys know about compiz theme managers for debian
[19:34] <krle> considering ubuntu is so into compiz, figured i'd ask here
[19:35] <fr0styy> dogmatic69: Ok....that was too cool lol
[19:35] <dogmatic69> you missed the start :P
[19:35] <dogmatic69> [19:23]	* AlanBell	is sitting down with a rather tasty 17 year old
[19:35] <dogmatic69> [19:23]	<AlanBell>	single malt
[19:37] <fr0styy> Im not too familiar with compiz... anything specific that you’re looking for?
[19:38] <krle> just a good theme manager for debian lenny
[19:38] <krle> will ubuntu's emerald work?
[19:40] <krle> rather are all compiz themes ok to install irrespective of what WM you have i.e gnome or kde or xfce etc
[19:41] <brobostigon> krle: compiz is a WM, gnome kde etc are desktop environments.
[19:42] <krle> if it is
[19:42] <brobostigon> it is,
[19:42] <krle> then how come when im in gnome, i restart xorg and type in compiz --replace in the terminal and compiz loads but the terminal needs to stay on?
[19:42] <brobostigon> compiz metacity mutter etc,are window managers, kde gnome xfce etc and desktopenvironments.
[19:42] <krle> shouldnt the terminal just disappear if im ona  compliz WM?
[19:43] <fr0styy> Nothing would tell you better that to try it out! :D
[19:43] <fr0styy> What I've learned so far about debian-like systems, is that if something doesn't work, then there are always work-arounds in the case that you encounter an error. Just make sure that you back-up any critical data that you DO NOT want to lose onto an external source, and start experimenting.
[19:43] <fr0styy> Anyone agree with me?
[19:43] <shauno> if you close the terminal, you kill the shell that's the parent process to compiz.   compiz --replace & would let you close the shell
[19:43] <brobostigon> krle: youstarted an app, like anyother from terminal, so you need to keep thatterminal running, to keep thatapp running, a wm is anapp essentially, like anyother,
[19:44] <krle> but if compiz is like gnome, why doesnt gnome have a terminnal running in the bg unlike compiz
[19:44] <krle> i thought a WM meant you dont have to be running no terminal in the bg for it to run, it takes over the whole thing
[19:44] <brobostigon> krle: compiz is a wm, gnome is a de, they are verydifferent things.
[19:45] <krle> ah ok
[19:45] <shauno> it doesn't need a terminal.  it only needs it in the example you gave, because it was started from the terminal
[19:45] <fr0styy> but it is using a terminal in the background, isnt it? There are always 7 terminals open....alt f1,2,3,etc           Right?
[19:45]  * brobostigon goes for food,
[19:45] <brobostigon> and booze, :)
[19:46] <fr0styy> stomach grouwls...
[19:48] <krle> nope not 7
[19:48] <krle> just one
[19:48] <shauno> krle: they can actually be disabled.  they're usually left running for safety's sake
[19:48] <krle> it initializes all the plugins and just sits there
[19:48] <krle> which is fine by me
[19:48] <krle> but if i cose the shell to get out of compiz, usually i lose borders
[19:48] <krle> and the windws kinda stick together
[19:48] <shauno> try running "compiz --replace &"
[19:49] <shauno> that'll detach compiz from the parent shell, so the terminal isn't needed anymore
[19:49] <krle> in which case  i have to alt+ctrl+backspace and relogin to have a plain gnome setting
[19:49] <krle> and my borders are back
[19:49] <krle> ok let me see
[19:50] <krle> wait
[19:50] <krle> you want me to run compiz --replace & instead of the usual compiz --replace?
[19:50] <shauno> yeah.  just & on the end of the regular comman
[20:04] <krle> sweet
[20:04] <krle> instead i like fusion-icon better
[20:04] <krle> :P
[20:04] <krle> just installed it
[20:04] <krle> alright sorry about the compiz stuff, good day
[20:33] <AlanBell> Azelphur: what processor do you have in your smokin' hot PC?
[20:33] <Azelphur> AlanBell: I7 950
[20:34] <Azelphur> http://game.azelphur.com/forum/building-computer#comment-589
[20:34] <AlanBell> thanks
[20:34] <Azelphur> it tears through wine gaming :D
[20:34] <Azelphur> TF2 all max, World of warcraft all max, no problem.
[20:34] <AlanBell> anyone got a Core I7 980X? handy?
[20:34] <Azelphur> still need to try some more games
[20:34] <Azelphur> haha
[20:35] <Azelphur> 980x is like 80% of my entire build budget
[20:35] <Azelphur> xD
[20:37] <AlanBell> quite bargainous hosting though http://www.hetzner.de/hosting/produktmatrix/rootserver-produktmatrix-eq
[20:38] <Azelphur> AlanBell: I've heard good things about them, they are great if you are ok with the setup fees and want hosting in germany
[20:38] <Azelphur> I pay through the roof because I need NYC hosting
[20:39] <AlanBell> yeah, we are using hetzner already for development and VMs for customers
[20:39] <Azelphur> :)
[20:39] <gord> Azelphur, pretty sure a computer from 3 years ago would play tf2/wow on all max ;)
[20:39] <Azelphur> gord: wine adds a little overhead
[20:40] <AlanBell> we took a copy of a customer's production site to a little dev VM on our core i7 920 server and it runs twice as fast as their production dual Xeon box
[20:40] <Azelphur> lol
[20:40] <Azelphur> http://game.azelphur.com/forum/low-down-new-server here's what I have :p
[20:40] <AlanBell> they want to move their production site to our dev box! I am thinking about getting a beast of a 980x for it to sit on
[20:41] <gord> AlanBell, y'know sandybridge is just coming out
[20:41] <Azelphur> dude sandy bridge
[20:41] <gord> friend tryed to grab one whilst we are here, but they are all sold out :'(
[20:41] <Azelphur> I got violated by sandy bridge - don't let the same happen to you
[20:41] <Azelphur> xD
[20:41] <screen-x> when installing grub, does "root" refer to where to the partition that contains /boot, or the root partition?
[20:41] <screen-x> and evening all :)
[20:42] <screen-x> oh dear, sentance construction fail
[20:42] <AlanBell> gord: good point, but it will be a while before they turn up in hosting options I think
[20:43] <gord> AlanBell, guess you can hardly complain with a 980x anyway :)
[20:44] <AlanBell> we are going to do some optimisation of the code (which is why it is on the dev box) but we have been surprised at the baseline performance improvement from just the processor
[20:44] <gord> yeah i7's are a huge improvement, even at similar clockspeeds to old cpus
[20:45] <AlanBell> ours is 2.8ghz and walks all over the Xeon 3.2Ghz
[20:46] <AlanBell> and they are paying three times as much as the hetzner i7 980x :)
[20:55] <daubers> evening
[20:57] <daubers> AlanBell: The new grade xeons are quite nice. We've had a couple in the office to play with
[20:58] <daubers> Really really want to get my hands on one of the 12 core AMD's and have a play, but the mobos are a bit pants
[21:05] <AlanBell> I don't think this needs lots of cores, just loads of crunchy power on one
[21:06] <andylockran> howdy all
[21:07] <fr0styy> Evening :D
[21:08] <daubers> I've been building a nice VM box, installing it in the DC on Tuesday
[21:09] <screen-x> mount
[21:10] <fr0styy> Theoretically speaking, is there a way in Linux to be a remote administrator of a network? Let's say: A way to debug, install, uninstall, and overall administer a home network from a computer at work?
[21:11] <daubers> fr0styy: Indeed, just need (for ease of use) a VPN
[21:11] <fr0styy> If there is, can someone link me to some documentation that would help me set it up?
[21:12] <AlanBell> fr0styy: install ssh-server on the home server and open up port 22 on your router
[21:12] <brobostigon> linux documentation project, and help.ubuntu.com/community are good starts,
[21:12] <AlanBell> then you can use ssh or putty to get to it from elsewhere
[21:12] <AlanBell> and install fail2ban as well and have decent passwords or even better use key authentication
[21:12] <bigcalm> I would suggest opening a different port than 22 on the router
[21:13] <bigcalm> Open a port higher than 1024 and have it forward to port 22 on the linux box has the ssh server
[21:13] <fr0styy> Because my parent's house's network always seems to be a mess. And we me being in london, and they being 1/2 way across the world, I was looking for a more practical solution :D
[21:13] <daubers> key based auth ftw \o/
[21:14] <daubers> fr0styy: They Linux or Windows based?
[21:15] <fr0styy> daubers: I was thinking of installing linux on their PCs to make it possible for me to administrate them. :)
[21:15] <daubers> fr0styy: There are windows alternative, such as teamviewer or logmein
[21:15] <daubers> those are cross platform
[21:16] <daubers> Non free though
[21:16] <brobostigon> vnc ?
[21:17] <fr0styy> daubers: I didnt expect there to be an easy "free' solution TBH. It was just a thought of making it my little side project. ^^
[21:17] <daubers> fr0styy: They are free as in beer, but not as in speech :)
[21:17] <daubers> fr0styy: If you throw together an openVPN box you could log onto their network and just use the windows RDP stuff or VNC
[21:17] <popey> evening
[21:18] <fr0styy> Evening!
[21:18] <brobostigon> evening popey
[21:18]  * popey builds chromeos
[21:19] <fr0styy> So in essence you would recomend I research into ceating an openVPN box? right daubers?
[21:19] <fr0styy> recommend* :S
[21:20] <popey> fr0styy: i remotely admin my mums machine from anywhere
[21:20] <popey> I just use ssh
[21:20] <popey> no vpn
[21:20] <daubers> popey: He's got potential windows machines involved
[21:20] <daubers> vnc over ssh is a pig to get working right
[21:20] <popey> no, it isnt
[21:20] <popey> at all
[21:20] <popey> it is insanely easy
[21:21] <daubers> I've never had it working well enough to be useful
[21:21] <fr0styy> However, do keep in mind that I could just hook them up with a linux solution to set in straight from the beginning :)
[21:21] <popey> vncviewer <remoteip> -via <host_you_have_an_ssh_key_for>
[21:21] <popey> job done
[21:21] <popey> where those two variables are the same at my mums house
[21:23] <fr0styy> Seems like it's ssh then. Gona have to do some reading before hand so that I don't mess it up though. :)
[21:25] <popey> http://popey.com/~alan/mum.png
[21:25] <popey> ^^ I typed "vncviewer -via mum_mums_external_ip localhost"
[21:26] <popey> got that window instantly :)
[21:26] <mattt> am i missing something ... where's the fosdem speaker schedule posted?
[21:27] <brobostigon> popey: thats a good thought, abviating chrome to internetand openoffice writer to word processor,
[21:28] <popey> heh, forgot I did that :)
[21:28]  * brobostigon decides tomake that change onhis mums mumbuntu machine,
[21:29] <fr0styy> I want to be able to administer my Mum's PC when she has problems. Not experienced at all, but when I want to do something I get it done. :D
[21:29] <fr0styy> I'll be sure to ask you popey on how to do it, when I go around their's in a few weeks. :)
[21:29] <popey> :)
[21:30] <brobostigon> fr0styy: i use a combination of ssh and vnc, and then use an ipv6 addr, to make it easy to ssh to.
[21:30] <popey> i use dyndns.org to make it easy to ssh to
[21:30] <popey> nice easy hostname
[21:31] <brobostigon> popey: i remember watching a presentation you made i think lastyear, about that setup.
[21:35] <fr0styy> What kind of material should I read if I want to learn more about remote administration?
[21:35] <bigcalm> Some domain registers (with dns hosting) offer dynamic pointing. One of the things I like about joker.com :)
[21:35] <bigcalm> fr0styy: read up on using the CLI
[21:35] <brobostigon> fr0styy: i would start with linux doc project and help.ubuntu.com/community
[21:35] <bigcalm> Try using your own machine without a GUI for a while :)
[21:36] <fr0styy> I'd like to be able to do that :)
[21:37] <bigcalm> Or, if you have a spare machine, try using that without a GUI from your main machine
[21:37] <brobostigon> fr0styy: iam sure we canteach eachother, :)
[21:41] <daubers> fr0styy: Popeys talk http://blip.tv/file/3668964/
[21:43] <fr0styy> Was popey using a wii remote as the pointer? :O
[21:44] <brobostigon> yes.
[21:44] <AlanBell> I have a wiimote whiteboard pen, it is great fun
[21:45] <fr0styy> Wow, what a great use for it. :)
[21:47] <AlanBell> !info gtkwhiteboard
[21:48] <AlanBell> install that, pair it with bluetooth, point wiimote at screen and use an IR pen
[21:48] <brobostigon> cool. :)
[21:49] <AlanBell> we did art http://twitpic.com/1kbp3a
[21:50] <brobostigon> :) very abstract.
[21:57] <dutchie> that was fun :)
[21:57]  * dutchie can't wait for oggcamp 11 (cough cough cough popey)
[22:02] <danfish> fr0styy: have a look at gitso - is windows and linux - vnc based remaote admin made easy
[22:02] <danfish> http://code.google.com/p/gitso/
[22:03]  * daubers is pondering converting his revo to an openVPN box
[22:03] <daubers> Might throw together a basic frontend for the process
[22:07] <fr0styy> That was an informative speech, where was this at?
[22:07] <daubers> fr0styy: Oggcamp 10
[22:08] <fr0styy> What's Oggcamp?
[22:08] <daubers> !oggcamp
[22:08] <daubers> How can the bot not know about oggcamp?
[22:08] <daubers> http://www.oggcamp.org
[22:10] <Laney> you can teach it with !learn oggcamp is ...
[22:10] <bigcalm> Must have been on the 2nd day as I don't remember there being a wiimote
[22:20] <fr0styy> I wish I came by this 4 years ago, would have been nice to go to an event like this. :P
[22:20] <daubers> I'm trying to convince work to let me potter up to the Open Source Expo
[22:20] <daubers> fr0styy: Hopefully it'll happen again
[22:21] <daubers> Though this year there needs to be a cake competition
[22:21] <fr0styy> Yea, but ill be leaving you guys soon :(
[22:21] <AlanBell> daubers: it is the same thing as http://www.cloudexpoeurope.com/
[22:22] <daubers> I shall pack my cake spoon http://tinyurl.com/4z46b6f
[22:24] <daubers> AlanBell: Hmmm.... we're not a very cloudy company. Be more interested in the OSE conference stuff tbh
[22:24] <daubers> The registration form is rubbish too
[22:25] <Azelphur> on my phone on 3g I'm getting 23kbps down and 3750kbps up...wat?
[22:25] <daubers> "Decision making power" I don't recommend stuff! I design the damn things
[22:26] <exobuzz> well. sandy bridge i5-2500k using built in graphics working well with maverick..
[22:27] <exobuzz> with some updates from xorg-edgers ppa and a compiz tweak
[22:27] <exobuzz> i thought it would be more trouble that it was.
[22:29] <popey> fr0styy: there might be another oggcamp this year
[22:29] <daubers> \o/
[22:30] <fr0styy> Im leaving england for good in exactly 2 weeks from now, I dont think I would make it to the next one TBH. :(
[22:30] <daubers> fr0styy: Where you off?
[22:30] <fr0styy> Ummm....A bit of globe trotting :S
[22:31] <daubers> I see
[22:31] <gord> leaving england is overrated
[22:32] <fr0styy> That is, until I can find a new 'base of operation'. It seems like it is going to be Germany at the moment, but who really knows. :)
[22:32] <fr0styy> Overrated how?
[22:35]  * fr0styy is watching Newsnight.
[22:35]  * daubers heads to bed
[22:36]  * fr0styy thinks its a good idea :O
[22:37] <fr0styy> G'night everyone! :D
[22:59] <hamitron> :)
[23:23] <brobostigon> nos da, sleep well.