[01:00] <Amaranth> xmad is alright, just frustrated
[01:00] <Amaranth> I talked to him, told him he was free to join again
[01:00] <Amaranth> IdleOne: Did you talk to the other one or did the logs show that wasn't needed?
[01:01] <IdleOne> I didn't talk to him. I removed for sake of fairness
[01:01] <IdleOne> I understand how they are all frustrated
[01:02] <Amaranth> Can I kick Matr|x?
[01:02] <IdleOne> let's see if he keeps his word
[01:03] <IdleOne> He doesn't want to reinstall for fear of losing his data (understandable)
[01:03] <Amaranth> mash_ doesn't seem to have said anything except the lines that got him kicked
[01:03] <maco> but...reinstalling doesnt delete /home
[01:03] <maco> and ze should be backing that up anyway
[01:03] <IdleOne> maco: if you have a separate /home
[01:04] <maco> IdleOne: where've you been the last 3 years?
[01:04] <IdleOne> in any case matr|x insist on doing this the hard way
[01:04] <maco> if you have all one partition, too!
[01:04] <IdleOne> really?
[01:04] <maco> select to use the same partition, uncheck the format option, /home is saved
[01:04] <IdleOne> heh, learned me something today.
[01:18] <Amaranth> You know, I think that command may just work
[01:18] <maco> whichn?
[01:19] <elky> Can someone add that string to idoru for an hour or so?
[01:19] <maco> how we do that?
[01:19] <elky> I don't think we can, but it'd be terribly satisfying.
[01:25] <marienz> which string?
[01:25] <maco> marienz: "rm -rf /*"
[01:25] <marienz> hmmmmm
[01:25] <maco> (obv dont run it)
[01:26] <marienz> thanks for looking out, but I do run various linuxes myself, so yeah :)
[01:26] <maco> eh anyone reading logs later needs to see the warning too
[01:59] <KB1JWQ> maco: WHAT THE HELL DUDE!  I RAN THAT COMMAND AND IT ATE MY MACBOOK!!!1!
[01:59] <KB1JWQ> :-D
[01:59] <maco> i used to have it in my email signature
[01:59] <maco> one of my professors almost did it, but when his macbook asked him for his password he decided maybe he shouldnt
[02:01] <KB1JWQ> maco: You're kidding me.  Macs actually prompt for confirumation on that?
[02:01] <KB1JWQ> From terminal?
[02:01] <KB1JWQ> That's impressive.
[02:01] <KB1JWQ> (I'm sure as hell not going to test the theory until I'm on somoene else's)
[02:02] <maco> KB1JWQ: um...macs use sudo
[02:02] <maco> sudo asks for passwords by default...
[02:07] <jpds> KB1JWQ: s/MAC/FACE/ ?
[03:18] <h00k> bah, fail
[03:27] <tonyyarusso> !windows | h00k, this has it
[03:28] <h00k> tonyyarusso: thanks :p
[03:28] <h00k> tonyyarusso: it was a typo, anyway
[03:47] <h00k> #ubuntu sure is fun today.
[03:47] <Jordan_U> I suspect that lost_soul in #ubuntu is a troll.
[03:50] <h00k> yes
[04:01] <h00k> my /af wanted to op me in here, I think.
[04:02] <lost_soul> hmmmm
[04:02] <lost_soul> I would like to speak to h00k
[04:03] <lost_soul> he banned me from promper ##ubuntu
[04:03] <h00k> lost_soul: I had you forwarded here because of repeated messages to have you join the proper channel for the discussion.
[04:03] <maco> and you're not banned from the channel where your discussion would be appropriate anyway
[04:04] <lost_soul> I'm using ubuntu and I'm banned from there
[04:04] <lost_soul> am I not
[04:04] <lost_soul> I was merely asking questions
[04:04] <lost_soul> and stating what I had heard
[04:05] <maco> which were not on topic
[04:05] <lost_soul> btw, ty for speaking over here h00k
[04:05] <maco> you were told repeatedly that *only* tech support is on topic in #ubuntu (its not ##ubuntu, btw)
[04:05] <lost_soul> so I get banned?
[04:05] <lost_soul> seriously
[04:05] <h00k> And you were told the proper place for such discussion, #ubuntu-offtopic is the proper place for that, which is what you were told.
[04:05] <maco> for not following directions? yes
[04:06] <h00k> ubottu: tell lost_soul about topic
[04:06] <lost_soul> thankfully ubuntu isn't a real os so fuck it...  Debian kills em
[04:07] <lost_soul> ubuntu just rewrites code
[04:07] <h00k> lost_soul: With that attitude, I won't be removing your ban, either.
[04:07] <lost_soul> good
[04:07] <lost_soul> I don't need it with your attitude either
[04:07] <h00k> lost_soul: Please come back when you're ready to discuss proper behavior in a channel.
[04:08] <maco> lost_soul: please don't swear
[04:08] <maco> (upstart wasnt new code? this is news to me...)
[04:08] <h00k> lost_soul: please /part the channel and come back when you're ready to discuss proper etiquette regarding /topics in a channel, attitude, and language
[04:09] <h00k> see also, !coc Code of Conduct
[04:09] <lost_soul> I will say no more
[04:09] <h00k> ubottu: tell lost_soul about CoC
[04:09] <lost_soul> if you don't want me here...  boot me
[04:09] <lost_soul> knowing I've done nothing wrong
[04:09] <lost_soul> TRUTH
[04:10] <h00k> !op | lost_soul
[04:10] <lost_soul> I don't understand what that is
[04:11] <nhandler> lost_soul: Please part like you were requested to do.
[04:11] <lost_soul> If I'm requested to part just boot me, grow a set of fucking balls
[04:16] <h00k> I tried, anyway.
[05:29] <IdleOne> thank you KB1JWQ
[05:30] <KB1JWQ> No worries, he's a cross channel irritant today.
[05:30] <IdleOne> why not just get them off network?
[05:31] <KB1JWQ> He's evading something fierce; *.tmodns.net hits a couple dozen legitimate users.
[05:39] <IdleOne> uhg
[05:39] <IdleOne> ugh
[05:39] <IdleOne> guh
[05:39] <IdleOne> gonna be one of those nights
[05:40] <KB1JWQ> Might want to +q<EMAIL_ADDRESS>if he comes back.
[05:40] <maco> is same person?
[05:40] <KB1JWQ> Yes.
[05:40] <maco> k
[05:40] <IdleOne> done
[05:56] <Jordan_U> Omanza is trolling in #ubuntu
[06:02] <elky> Did someone let a cage of skiddies loose?
[06:02] <h00k> yes
[06:02] <h00k> twice
[06:02] <elky> :(
[06:05] <Jordan_U> sabayonuser3 may also be a troll (he's certainly in the wrong channel)
[08:46] <ikonia> need to restart irssi, it's gone nuts
[09:10] <elky> Some people just cannot learn, can they.
[09:11] <topyli> not spaceghost anyway
[09:13] <ikonia> !staff | Guest679855 multiple channels autojoin spam links
[09:13] <CiphersSon> so i dont understand why im blocked from #ubuntu
[09:14] <CiphersSon> any one around help me get unbanded from #ubuntu
[09:15] <ikonia> CiphersSon: hang on
[09:15] <ikonia> @btlogin
[09:15] <CiphersSon> Ok thank you.
[09:17] <ikonia> CiphersSon: you told people to "stfu kids" or "shut the fuck up kids" in #ubuntu
[09:18] <CiphersSon> ?
[09:18] <ikonia> why is that a question ?
[09:18] <ikonia> you also posted a spam link
[09:18] <CiphersSon> I honestly dont rember doing that....
[09:18] <CiphersSon> when was this?
[09:19] <ikonia> 14/08/2010
[09:21] <ikonia> anything coming back
[09:21] <CiphersSon> I cant make heads or tells of it.
[09:21] <ikonia> the operator jpds banning you and removing you from the channel
[09:21] <CiphersSon> theres only two things that i think could have happened
[09:21] <ikonia> I bet I know one of them, but go on
[09:22] <CiphersSon> either i was completely hammered drunk or i my friend was because i let him use this computer some times and only this computer witch i call my "chat box"
[09:23] <ikonia> there we go, I knew it was going to be one of those two things
[09:23] <ikonia> CiphersSon: you are responsible for your own behaviour even when drunk, or for your friends computer using your machine, username and ip
[09:24] <ikonia> CiphersSon: go and talk to your friend and find out if he can make any sense of it
[09:24] <CiphersSon> Well is there any thing i can do. I apologize  if that meens anything.
[09:24] <ikonia> CiphersSon: take some time to speak to your friend to find out if it was him
[09:25] <ikonia> then come back and let us know
[09:25] <CiphersSon> Hes in nebraska
[09:25] <CiphersSon> im in kansas
[09:25] <persia> Apologies mostly only help for things one knows one did: if one doesn't have control over one's computer (friends use it, etc.), that tends to expect security precautions to be taken.
[09:25] <ikonia> CiphersSon: use emai/telephone/skype
[09:25] <ikonia> CiphersSon: let us know what you find out and we can look at the ban
[09:28] <ikonia> CiphersSon: you're welcome to re-join this channel when you have additional information, in the mean time we ask that you leave the channel until we can discuss your ban with you
[09:52] <jussi> oh dear... NOOOO! http://capslockday.com/
[09:53] <Gary> CAPSLOCK IS COOL
[09:53] <Tm_T> ...IT'S NOT THURSDAY ):
[09:54] <jussi> lol
[09:57] <persia> Tm_T, well be soon: only needs another hour in some places.
[09:58] <Gary> CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!!!!111
[09:58]  * Gary hides
[09:59] <Flannel> Gary: BUT EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL, YOU STILL NEED TO STEER!
[09:59] <persia> Flannel, Depends where you are.
[10:12] <jussi> Flannel: welcome back, havent seen you around for a bit!
[10:13] <Flannel> jussi: I've been around, just wasn't doing much but reading backscroll for two weeks while I was away on business travel.
[10:14] <jussi> Flannel: ahh, business trips... yes, always fun
[10:15] <Gary> ikonia: can you pastebin the spam you reported earlier?
[10:26] <ikonia> Gary: http://pastebin.com/WyrBKnzD
[10:26] <ikonia> Gary: it changed (I joined a few times to test it) but it was that sort of thing
[10:26] <ikonia> mostly come from #drupal/#gentoo joins but did it when I joined #ubuntu and #mysql
 Hey, the +q is easily the best gift I could have ever asked for. Mind making a note not to remove it? Thanks.
[10:27] <elky> From the mouths of... I'm not really sure what.
[10:30] <ikonia> make a note of that atttiude for when he comes here asking for it to be removed
[10:31] <elky> It is what he requested, after all.
[10:37]  * popey notes that SpaceGhostC2C is one of a very small number of people who have been ejected from the ubuntu-users mailing list
[10:51] <ikonia> worth noting
[11:14] <elky> popey, he is?
[11:14] <popey> yup
[11:15] <elky> I don't think I'll be unquieting him for a while then.
[11:15] <elky> Some time to think will do him good.
[11:16] <Tm_T> that nick does ring a bell
[11:16] <popey> not convinced +q is the right way forward tbh
[11:16] <popey> he was moderated on -users, but continued to get the mail and replied to people offlist
[11:17] <popey> which I guess he'll still do on irc, by PMing people
[11:17] <topyli> elky: he also rejoiced to me in pm and asked me if i can talk to you to not remove the quiet. i told him not to worry
[11:17] <elky> topyli, Hmm, maybe we should indulge him in an upgrade?
[11:17] <topyli> (assumed there was no imminent danger of you doing so)
[11:17] <elky> popey, he's been known to in the past, yeah.
[11:18] <elky> It wouldn't surprise me if he's in /that/ channel either.
[11:18] <popey> this went to the CC because people complained that the atmosphere in -users was going down the pan
[11:18] <ikonia> popey: I agree
[11:18] <ikonia> elky: he's not
[11:19] <elky> Dear deity, who is taking a dump on the international links out of .au?
[11:19] <topyli> elky: agreed, let's change it to a simple ban, easier for everybody
[11:28] <jussi> I like it when Qt gets a good word put in! :D http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2010/10/20/ubuntu-and-qt/
[11:31] <persia> I'd like to advocate general use of +q.  It's less disruptive to have folks /msg folks in realtime than based on log polling.
[11:31] <persia> Unless there are complaints about someone, in which case it makes more sense.
[11:32] <elky> It's a good diffuser, yes
[11:33] <elky> especially when the ears get plugged for a lalalalala session, or the start /ignoring
[11:33] <persia> And many of the more annoying folk who just lack self control will be relatively happy with +1 but whine about +b
[11:33] <jussi> persia: big plus one from me on that, we have talked about it within the ircc, and had planned to send a mail to the list
[11:34] <elky> I'd like to see us utilise 15 second channel mutes in offtopic when things get stupid there too.
[11:34] <jussi> so yes, please use +q a lot more, its a very good option for a lot of things
[11:35] <jussi> got to run... laters
[11:35] <persia> elky, That's an interesting idea.  Just +m for a bit and explain that it's too noisy, and then -m again?
[11:36] <elky> persia, +m until they realise that they're being looked at sternly. some of them are good at ignoring ops
[11:37] <elky> so we can be screaming stop for ages and they'll happily not notice. +m stops both sides simultaneously - no favouritism
[11:37] <persia> I suspect my channels tend to be less disruptive, but I think I'll start using that once in a while.
[11:37] <elky> esp. if we come in half way and there's a few mins of fast scrolling to try digest
[11:38] <Tm_T> hi seeker
[11:38] <elky> mostly I like it because it's equal blame
[11:38] <seeker> Lo
[11:39] <persia> Indeed.  The equal blame is nice.  Also the "Hey, stupid, there might be consequences" bit is a little easier to get across.
[11:39] <Tm_T> seeker: you might like to identify yourself (;
[11:39] <elky> It would probably resolve things quickly with "hey now look what you did" to the actual guilty party
[11:40] <elky> As in the people who saw the whole thing will do that
[11:40] <elky> I wouldn't recommend it for #u, but -offtopic definitely
[11:40] <Tm_T> yup
[11:41] <elky> Tm_T, it's him, he's hand-tied at the moment
[11:41] <Tm_T> ah, didn't doubt it actually, just that if he wasn't aware of his unidentification
[11:42] <seeker> Phone Irc client + forgotten password = not identified
[11:43] <seeker> Will sort it out when not at work
[11:43]  * Tm_T huggles seeker
[11:43] <persia> elky, Indeed, for #ubuntu +m is just too dangerous, as it's always high-paced multithreaded goodness, even when there is a problem.
[11:44] <elky> persia, yeah, it's a completely different dynamic. making newbies feel banned for asking questions isn't going to end happy
[11:45] <Tm_T> ye
[11:45] <persia> Just to confirm, if I +m somewhere, I still get to see what people try to say, right?
[11:45] <Tm_T> it's rarely useful to +m #u anyway
[11:45] <elky> persia, if you stay opped up yes
[11:46] <persia> Tm_T, I'd say never :)
[11:46] <elky> It'd start a panic before it solved anything
[11:46] <persia> elky, Cool.  95% of the time all my channels work with me just asking people to calm, but it helps to know the tools for that other day and a half a month.
[11:47] <Tm_T> persia: there has been few occasions when it has been necessary for a very short time
[11:47] <persia> I'm surprised, but I believe it.
[11:47] <elky> You can pretty much calibrate your full moon detector by that day and a half.
[11:47] <seeker> The floodbots seem capable of handling major spamming now
[11:48] <persia> heh
[11:49] <elky> I can't see any IRCC comment on the +m option for -ot
[11:52] <Tm_T> means they're not disagreeing (;)
[11:52] <elky> Which doesn't mean they do, though.
[11:52] <elky> er, i mean do agree
[11:52] <Tm_T> I know
[11:53] <persia> The IRCC member that was around just ran off though, so we may have a while to wait.
[11:56] <topyli> a very short +m on -ot doesn't hurt the channel's productivity while you explain that the discussion that was just going on is not welcome
[11:57] <Tm_T> yup
[11:57] <Tm_T> but this ofcourse after less harsh measures have failed
[11:57] <topyli> then remove the +m and start making sure that the consequences are real for those who continue
[11:58] <topyli> tm_T: this would very rarely be necessary
[11:58] <Tm_T> sure
[11:59] <topyli> i'm rather proud for having used "productivity" and "#ubuntu-offtopic" in the same sentence now
[12:00] <elky> I'm rather confused by it.
[12:01] <elky> topyli, where rarely is probably once a month.
[12:02] <topyli> perhaps
[12:03] <elky> Probably less now that spaceghost isn't there.
[12:04] <elky> topyli, also, since he's not going to be coming here any time soon to discuss it, a memo to him from ircc explaining might be worthwhile. just because he's a rude sod doesn't mean we should be too :)
[12:05] <ikonia> could someone explain why +q is better than +b
[12:06] <elky> it gives them a chance to cool down and is less likely to result in an unproductive storming off.
[12:07] <elky> it gives the message that you want them to shut up, not necessarily go away.
[12:07] <ikonia> in terms of functionality
[12:07] <ikonia> why is +q better than +b
[12:07] <elky> because if they do storm off, they can come back.
[12:08] <bazhang> less full ban list
[12:08] <elky> and rather than just get a brick wall, they get in and have a chance to look around and /then/ figure out they're still reprimanded
[12:09] <persia> I like it because sometimes folks are fine to read stuff, but just need a bit more control over themselves.  +q can help.
[12:09] <persia> +b makes them feel rejected, rather than part of the environment, but being punished
[12:09] <elky> persia, yep, especially in #u
[12:09] <elky> cutting people off often sabotages the negotiation process
[12:11] <elky> and sometimes getting to see others thank the ops (although discouraged!) drives the message home that it's not just a personal thing with the op, it's other channel users too
[12:12] <elky> It's mostly psychological.
[12:13] <elky> ikonia, does that make sense at all?
[12:23] <ikonia> sorry, had to step away
[12:23] <ikonia> just got back
[12:24] <ikonia> elky: I see what your suggesting
[12:26] <elky> I often go to +q in ubuntu but get beaten by a boot
[12:26]  * elky shrugs
[12:27] <ikonia> guilty
[12:27] <elky> If they don't look like they have actual interest in being there, +b.   Some of them may even thank you later.
[12:48] <nhandler> On that note, +q is also nice to pair with a PM conversation with the user. It seems most OPs are forgetting that a casual PM to the user should be the first step, not bringing them in here in front of all the OPs.
[12:49] <bazhang> I do that all the time.
[12:54] <elky> I find a PM conversation is a bit rude since I often step in while at work.
[12:55] <elky> Asking people to a pm conversation I can't necessarily maintain isn't productive
[12:59] <ikonia> nhandler: no-one is forgetting a casual PM can work, but a lot of the time, PM'ing the users causes them to blow up and then it gets into a "he said/she said"
[12:59] <ikonia> we have this channel for a reason so it's transparant and logged
[12:59] <ikonia> a pm is neither
[13:01] <elky> Classic. So. 4 days before UDS, we have to change all the names of the blueprints. This means that all prior email correspondence about said blueprints is now void. The cleverness, it burns.
[13:01] <ikonia> why ?
[13:02] <elky> Do you have a list of stupid answers I could randomly pick from?
[13:02] <jussi> elky: hrm?
[13:02] <elky> jussi, all blueprints must now start with ubuntutheproject-
[13:03] <jussi> elky: I thought jorge gave directions weeks ago about changuing that...
[13:03] <jussi> yes, he did...
[13:03] <jussi> I have email
[13:03] <elky> jussi, I never saw it.
[13:03] <elky> I'm only being told now.
[13:03] <jussi> heh
[13:04] <jussi> lemme see which list you needed to be on...
[13:05] <jussi> this thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-October/031765.html
[13:05] <jussi> ubuntu devel list
[13:07] <Tm_T> I wonder why such mail is sent only to there
[13:07] <elky> I've never subscribed to it, and I really don't intend to now.
[13:07] <elky> the funny thing is, I'd already renamed this once, "weeks ago"
[13:08] <jussi> youll have to tackle jorge about why it is only sent there
[13:10] <elky> That's probably the last question I'd ask, actually.
[13:11] <persia> It's sent there under the assumption that "Developer" in UDS means ubuntu-devel folk.
[13:11] <persia> Not correct, but that's why.
[13:12] <jussi> persia: yeah, I can see why the assumption was made.
[13:12] <persia> The naming is just a set of broken workarounds because nobody feels like making blueprints.launchpad.net work or making everyone register everything both on LP and in summit.ubuntu.com
[13:13] <elky> Ah
[13:14]  * elky headdesks.
[13:14] <Pici> Ah, the old 'Blame LP' routine :P
[13:16] <persia> Pici, No, really, even the LP folks agree.
[13:16] <persia> Three issues: 1) the concept of "track" is unknown to LP.  2) the export tool has weird and specific requirements.  3) LP has only weak ways to find blueprints for a given cycle.
[13:17]  * Mamarok is not an ubuntu dev and has no reason to read that devel list
[13:17] <persia> the "team" part of the naming convention is for the workitems tracker, rather than summit, but there are still a number of schools of thought about how that ought work (and a session at UDS this time about how to make project management with LP sane)
[13:18] <Tm_T> Mamarok: every Kubuntu devel is Ubuntu devel too IMO, although expecting everyone to follow that mailinglist isn't reasonable
[13:18] <Mamarok> Tm_T: I am not a kubuntu-devel either, I do a lot of other things in Kubuntu, though, so still no reason
[13:19] <Tm_T> yup
[13:19] <Mamarok> crossposting to kubuntu-devel would be OK, though, I read that list :)
[13:19] <elky> there really ought to be a UDS list.
[13:20] <elky> if there is and I missed the memo, feel free to laugh at me
[13:20] <jussi> YAML...
[13:20] <persia> There isn't.
[13:20] <jussi> persia: what no one told you about the secret UDS list? :D :P
[13:21] <persia> I don't think we need a UDS list: I think that if it's not going to be a Developer summit (and clearly there are several folks here who don't identify with "Developer"), it makes sense to have another name.
[13:21] <persia> jussi, I may not read email, but I do tend to have a good idea of most of the secret lists :p
[13:21] <Mamarok> how about an announce list or some such?
[13:21] <jussi> persia: I disagree, I think it is a developer summit. just some of us dont develop software, but community
[13:22] <jussi> Mamarok: there is one of those
[13:22] <Mamarok> jussi: called ubuntu-devel-announce....
[13:22] <elky> jussi, I used pretty much those same words for the first UDS I went to
[13:22] <jussi> hehe
[13:22] <Mamarok> so how about a community mailing list?
[13:23] <persia> jussi, Sure.  I'm happy with that, as long as folks identify with that definition.  It's just semantics, and we're stuck with either a promotional campaign *OR* prevelent cultural norms.
[16:51] <jpds> Hey guys.
[16:52] <jpds> Can someone -m #ubuntu-meeting please?
[16:52] <jpds> This is relevant to robbiew's interests.
[16:52] <Pici> Done :)
[16:53] <robbiew> Pici: thnx
[17:19] <jpds> So this ubuntu91human dude.
[17:26] <ikonia> yes ?
[17:28] <jpds> Like that.
[17:28] <ikonia> got it
[17:37] <Pici> Seriously?
[17:37] <ikonia> ?
[17:37] <Pici> 12:35:04 <Frots> hi, I've been trying the /disco command for the discolights in irssi but it doesnt seem to work
[17:38] <Pici> And then when I told him that we didn't appreciate that he got confused.
[17:38] <ikonia> a ha, I missed that
[17:39] <ikonia> I actually think that's a script
[17:39] <ikonia> I've seen someone else ask about something similar, ages ago
[17:39] <Pici> In most irc clients /disco is usually an alias to disconnect
[17:39] <ikonia> I wonder if the other guy was trying the same
[17:41] <Pici> Hes in #irssi now, waiting for him to ask
[17:53] <Tm_T> in irssi, /disco falls to /disconnect unless there's something set to that command
[18:16] <marienz> are you sure? the version I'm on here does generally run commands if you type the first few characters and it's not ambiguous
[18:17] <marienz> I've repeatedly accidentally /nick'd myself to something silly because I typoed my /nsi alias as /ni, and irssi decided I meant /nick
[18:30] <Tm_T> marienz: that's what I mean actually (:
[18:30] <marienz> oh, *falls*
[18:31] <marienz> sorry, I read that as "fails" :(
[18:31] <marienz> and no, my font isn't that terrible, I just wasn't paying enough attention
[18:57] <ikonia> hello
[19:01] <Pici> 'corntab'
[19:01] <ikonia> ?
[19:01] <ikonia> ahh
[19:01] <ikonia> I see it
[19:10] <Pici> I wish there was a plugin for irssi to turn im-speak to real english.
[19:12] <ikonia> I'll write one
[19:59] <guntbert> Hi, I'd like to discuss my suggestion from two days ago about the !webmin factoid
[20:00] <guntbert> !webmin is <sed> / See !ebox instead.//
[20:03] <Pici> hmm
[20:04] <Pici> Has anyone tested ebox 2.0?
[20:04] <guntbert> Pici: looking at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/eBox I see no "real" support here
[20:04] <guntbert> I tested ebox shortly on a VM, it wanted to use only its own config files
[20:05] <guntbert> so I'd say it is in no way equivalent to what webmin used to be
[20:06] <Pici> !webmin =~ s/ See !ebox instead.//
[20:06] <Pici> I suppose if anyone has a good suggestion for an alternative they could suggest it.
[20:06] <ts2> it's certainly not equivalent
[20:06] <Pici> I mean suggest it in real-time, rather than on a factoid, although that would be good too.
[20:07] <Pici> And ebox seems to have gone commercial anyway.    and so they both niggered.
[20:52] <IdleOne> erUSUL: yup
[20:53] <IdleOne> idoru killed
[20:53] <erUSUL> someone has said that twice already with different nicks. maybe the same host?
[20:53] <maco> nope
[20:54] <IdleOne> different host but they bots are getting smarter it seems
[20:54] <IdleOne> spam bots that is
[20:54] <erUSUL> "no one says it would be easy... noone said it would be that hard..." the life of a op ;P
[20:54] <erUSUL> cu
[22:13] <ikonia> Pici: re:ebox, what about puppet or landscape ?
[22:14] <ikonia> I have no idea why ubuntu pushed ebox when it's never worked since it was put in
[22:50] <ikonia> was SpaceGhostC2C changed to a ban in #ubuntu-offtopic
[22:52] <ikonia> removed him based on popey's comments earlier that a +q is not appropriate
[22:57] <SpaceGhostC2C> I was wondering about the validity of ikonia's kick.
[22:57] <SpaceGhostC2C> If I'm +q, what does it matter?
[22:59] <ikonia> SpaceGhostC2C: I've banned you based on a conversation between the ops earlier
[22:59] <jrib> SpaceGhostC2C: depends, maybe kick was a better response on second thought
[22:59] <SpaceGhostC2C> jrib: I thought that was the decision of the op who put the +q on me?
[22:59] <ikonia> not always
[23:00] <jrib> SpaceGhostC2C: ops mostly work as a team with communication, etc.
[23:00] <ikonia> SpaceGhostC2C: if after discussion it's better to return you to +q I'll be more than happy to do that
[23:00] <SpaceGhostC2C> also, the line that the op +q'd me for was telling the person who said "/me puts elky's boot up SpaceGhostC2C's arse" wasn't even brought up.
[23:00] <jrib> anyway, I know nothing about the matter so I'll let ikonia handle it
[23:01] <ikonia> SpaceGhostC2C: I'm not fully aware of the original incident, so I'm not disputing anything on that with you,
[23:01] <SpaceGhostC2C> ikonia: so where do you get the whole "You can't be trusted here" thing if you don't even know about the issue?
[23:01] <SpaceGhostC2C> I mean, why now? what got your nickers in a twist?
[23:01] <elky> We agreed to upgrade it to a ban, I just hadn't got around to doing the upgrading yet.
[23:01] <ikonia> SpaceGhostC2C: past behaviour and reputation within the ubuntu community, a discussion with other ops on this suggested this was a better option
[23:01] <SpaceGhostC2C> Ah. that might make more sense.
[23:01] <ikonia> elky: ahh perfect, thank you
[23:02] <elky> Now, i'm already late for work, so ciao.
[23:02] <SpaceGhostC2C> elky: Why exactly did you +q me on saying that I don't engage in any anal-related activity?
[23:02] <SpaceGhostC2C> with her specifically.
[23:02] <SpaceGhostC2C> "tapper: I don't engage in anal-related acts with elky, I might suggest you not say such things. Poor elky is likely to grow tired of your highlighting her.   I just think you're ridiculous, at least as much as I am. :)


[11:51] <AlanBell> qu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted?
[11:52] <AlanBell> but yes, this channel is for everyone
[12:10] <qu|x> AlanBell: yes :)
[13:48] <Pendulum> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently?
[13:49] <Pendulum> (and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct)
[14:03] <charlie-tca> They have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now
[14:11] <Pendulum> yeah
[14:12] <charlie-tca> I don't have the timeline for it, myself
[14:12] <Pendulum> I'm not sure anyone does
[14:13] <Pendulum> it seems to be a bit fuzzy
[14:19] <charlie-tca> heh, not surprising
[14:19] <charlie-tca> Seems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing"
[16:06] <vish> oh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p
[16:19] <vish> charlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates
[16:50] <nigelb> Pendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility?
[16:50]  * nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that
[17:15] <nigelb> charlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :)
[17:16] <charlie-tca> I seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it.
[17:17] <nigelb> :(
[17:17] <charlie-tca> I can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast
[17:17] <nigelb> :(
[17:19] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I am all for us working for that
[17:19] <Pendulum> at the very least for the accessibility team pages
[17:19] <Pendulum> and if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good
[17:20] <charlie-tca> The days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy
[17:21] <nigelb> if we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great
[17:21] <charlie-tca> It becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader
[17:22] <nigelb> I agree
[17:23] <nigelb> As someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/
[17:25] <charlie-tca> Agreed
[17:25] <charlie-tca> It isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty"
[17:26] <Pendulum> yeah
[17:26] <Pendulum> well and "fancy"
[17:27] <Pendulum> like all the people who are so excited about stack exchange
[17:27] <Pendulum> which as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable
[17:28] <Pendulum> because it's all JS
[17:28] <charlie-tca> yup
[17:29] <charlie-tca> Of course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki.
[17:29] <charlie-tca> nigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes?
[17:30] <nigelb> charlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu
[17:31] <charlie-tca> Okay
[17:31] <nigelb> Going to be up all night too
[17:55] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw
[17:56] <charlie-tca> I like it
[17:56] <AlanBell> great
[17:56] <charlie-tca> The text shows very well, and the reverse links work great!
[17:57] <qu|x> reverse links?
[17:57] <AlanBell> the white on aubergine when you hover over a link?
[17:58] <qu|x> Somethink like bit.ly or tiny.url?
[17:58] <charlie-tca> yes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors
[17:58] <charlie-tca> yup
[17:58] <AlanBell> ok, interesting, didn't know that was a help
[17:59] <nigelb> AlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :)
[17:59] <AlanBell> that prompted my question
[17:59] <charlie-tca> The only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box.
[18:00] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases
[18:00] <AlanBell> apparently a standard moin feature
[18:00] <charlie-tca> That works then
[18:03] <charlie-tca> I complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty"
[18:08] <charlie-tca> You did all that as admin, right?
[18:09] <AlanBell> this is just a development site
[18:09] <AlanBell> running on my laptop
[18:10] <AlanBell> it is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org
[18:10] <AlanBell> no particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well
[18:10] <charlie-tca> yes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user
[18:12] <AlanBell> if you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme
[18:15] <charlie-tca> That doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that
[18:15] <charlie-tca> However, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only
[18:15] <charlie-tca> That is how the help wiki did it
[18:16] <AlanBell> I agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list
[18:16] <charlie-tca> wow! That would be nice
[18:18] <AlanBell> actually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on
[18:21] <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps
[18:22] <charlie-tca> Well, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks
[18:23] <charlie-tca> classic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it
[18:30] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme
[18:34] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people?
[18:34] <charlie-tca> sure
[18:35] <charlie-tca> I tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough
[18:35] <Pendulum> jono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work
[18:35] <Pendulum> hmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana
[18:35] <charlie-tca> And I will even try to give any answers I can
[18:36] <Pendulum> because pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem
[18:36] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme?
[18:36] <charlie-tca> I dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance
[18:36] <charlie-tca> TOC
[18:36] <charlie-tca> It fails in every other theme
[18:37] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
[18:37] <charlie-tca> If you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely
[18:37] <charlie-tca> and it applies to the entire wiki
[18:43] <AlanBell> hmm, I see some broken image links
[18:44] <AlanBell> anyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki
[18:46] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:47] <Pendulum> I think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session
[18:47] <Pendulum> because jono's offered to advocate where he can
[18:47] <AlanBell> yup
[18:47] <Pendulum> and ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are
[18:48] <Pendulum> and I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user
[18:49] <Pendulum> a BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes)
[18:49] <Pendulum> and that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users!
[18:51] <charlie-tca> That would be great
[18:52] <charlie-tca> I tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/
[18:52] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:52] <charlie-tca> and then it fails in windows
[18:52] <Pendulum> aww :(
[18:53] <charlie-tca> heh
[18:53] <Pendulum> bloody IE
[18:53] <charlie-tca> yup
[18:53] <charlie-tca> but, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore
[18:54] <Pendulum> btw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :)
[18:54] <Pendulum> since you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes
[18:54] <Pendulum> (i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want)
[18:55] <charlie-tca> I use kubrickflex-blue
[18:55] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:55] <Pendulum> that's the one I like of the 3 :)
[18:55] <charlie-tca> but I wrote the thing, too
[18:55] <Pendulum> (I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours)
[18:55] <Pendulum> that's because you have skills :P
[18:55] <charlie-tca> I do too
[18:55] <Pendulum> I don't
[18:55] <AlanBell> locking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff
[18:56] <charlie-tca> I don't have the skills now. I did have them
[18:56] <charlie-tca> Yes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes.
[18:56] <Pendulum> I have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink)
[18:56] <AlanBell> I have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout"
[18:56]  * AlanBell declined
[18:56] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:57] <Pendulum> but also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons
[18:57] <charlie-tca> They don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it.
[18:57] <AlanBell> http://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Mine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose.
[18:58] <Pendulum> yeah
[18:58] <Pendulum> AlanBell: that's because you get it
[18:58] <Pendulum> sadly you are in the minority :(
[18:58] <AlanBell> I think Alan Lord designed that actually
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Oh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely
[18:59] <AlanBell> it does, a lesser needed feature these days
[18:59] <Pendulum> yeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time
[18:59] <AlanBell> ctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing)
[19:00] <charlie-tca> me. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now
[19:00] <Pendulum> well, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller
[19:00] <charlie-tca> of course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt
[19:00] <Pendulum> *use
[19:00] <charlie-tca> Never seen one that was too big for me
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work
[19:01] <Pendulum> fair enough
[19:01] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best
[19:01] <AlanBell> lots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something
[19:02] <charlie-tca> true
[19:02] <Pendulum> AlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/
[19:02] <charlie-tca> They don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract
[19:07] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages
[19:18] <Pendulum> okay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :)
[19:20] <charlie-tca> good luck
[19:21] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working
[19:21] <charlie-tca> doesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes
[19:23] <charlie-tca> The only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it.
[19:26] <AlanBell> not entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png
[19:27] <charlie-tca> Correct. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only
[19:27] <AlanBell> ok
[19:28] <charlie-tca> If you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there
[19:30] <charlie-tca> In the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully
[19:35] <AlanBell> yeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make.
[19:36] <AlanBell> but obviously not one we can make without access to the theme
[19:36] <AlanBell> I will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later
[19:37] <AlanBell> see if I can make that work with it
[19:38] <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either
[19:41] <charlie-tca> Nothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu.
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I also tried everything I could to make that work.
[19:43]  * charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years
[19:56] <AlanBell> yeah, I can see how to fix it
[20:01] <charlie-tca> :-)
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while
[20:07] <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK?
[20:11] <charlie-tca> no
[20:11] <charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/112905
[20:16] <charlie-tca> Sorry, but that looks the same to me
[20:16] <charlie-tca> wait
[20:16] <charlie-tca> what happened now. It just reloaded properly
[20:17] <AlanBell> caching probably
[20:17] <charlie-tca> I like that
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Is that modern, too?
[20:18] <charlie-tca> ignore that pastebin
[20:19]  * charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.9
[20:19] <charlie-tca> it doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things
[20:20] <charlie-tca> even when I reload the page


[01:25] <dmcglone> Hi everyone
[01:26] <BiosElement> unHi dmcglone
[01:26] <dmcglone> what's up?
[01:26] <dmcglone> anyone good with database design?
[01:26] <BiosElement> Eh, maybe. haha
[01:27] <Cheri703> Don't forget daylight savings time!
[01:27] <dmcglone> I'm just fooling around with techniques on paging
[01:28] <dmcglone> was wondering if I should number the pages in the DB or just go by the "title" of the page
[01:28] <BiosElement> dmcglone, As in number each db entry? Or tag 15 entries with 'page5'?
[01:30] <dmcglone> more like putting a number to each db entry, besides the primary key ID
[01:31] <dmcglone> for instance the db would look something like this:
[01:31] <dmcglone> ID | page | description
[01:31] <BiosElement> Sounds like you're over-thinking it maybe.
[01:31] <dmcglone> and when called, go by the page number to get the description
[01:32] <dmcglone> I think I am too
[01:32] <BiosElement> I'm not aware of any db design that actually does that.
[01:33] <dmcglone> say for instance I put in the db ID 1 | page index | description bla bla bla on the page
[01:33] <dmcglone> wait a second, that wasn't correct
[01:34] <dmcglone> more like: ID 1 | page 1 | description bla bla bla text on page
[01:34] <BiosElement> You think too hard :P
[01:35] <dmcglone> I usually pull from the DB by title
[01:35] <dmcglone> I was playing around today and was trying new techniques
[01:36] <BiosElement> You may have a good idea, but I think it's probably more complex then it's worth.
[01:36] <dmcglone> and I pull the content for that page based on the page title
[01:37] <dmcglone> it's pretty much the way all the CMS's do it
[01:38] <dmcglone> I can't use the actual ID because it may not match up with the page title
[01:40] <dmcglone> I've even used case statements for page display :-)
[01:40] <dmcglone> huh, matter of fact I've used if else to display them too
[01:43] <dmcglone> is google sucking bad or what? I do a search and get a complete blank page
[01:47] <dmcglone> BiosElement: check this out, I wrote this about 5 years ago, simple function to get the page number from the db and display it's contents http://pastebin.com/5nwXPHLV
[01:48] <BiosElement> Mmm Ahh cool
[01:48] <dmcglone> with that code, I could enter everything for the page into a db and give that page a number and it would automagically generate that page
[01:51] <dmcglone> Oh the power of PHP ;-)
[01:54] <BiosElement> lol, I bet I could do it in python easier ;)
[01:54]  * Cheri703 watches yet another python / php pissing match
[01:55] <Cheri703> :D
[01:56] <dmcglone> bet? you don't sound so confident ;-)
[01:56] <dmcglone> lol Cheri703
[01:56] <Cheri703> put them on the table and measure already!
[01:58] <dmcglone> haha
[01:59] <dmcglone> I might break the table :-/
[02:00] <dmcglone> he's awful quiet, he's probably googling how to write paging methods for python
[02:00] <dmcglone> lol
[02:02] <dmcglone> I got another one for ya, that doesn't use a DB. I'll post it on PB for you to droooooooool over... LOL
[02:03] <dmcglone> drool on this: http://pastebin.com/Q3ZXQk57
[02:09] <dmcglone> Ah come on dude, you gotta drop kick me or something, just give me a sign... lol
[02:09] <dmcglone> and no I don't mean the middle finger haha
[02:12] <BiosElement> lol, sorry. Neck deep in auth code atm
[02:13] <Cheri703> can I just say for the record: SeaQuest is RIDICULOUS
[02:19] <dmcglone1> whats seaquest?
[02:19] <dmcglone1> a game?
[02:19] <dmcglone1> auth code in pearl? ;-)
[02:19] <Cheri703> 90's sci-fi tv show
[02:22] <dmcglone1> Oh ok
[02:23] <dmcglone1> I'm watching "I almost got away with it"
[02:24] <dmcglone1> getting ready to get my midnight snack. Cereal :-D
[02:26] <dmcglone1> shredded wheat anyone?
[02:40] <dmcglone1> well I'm off to bed :-)
[02:40] <dmcglone1> g'night everyone
[06:01] <BiosElement> Folks nextdoor want to run up and down the stairs all night and bang things around...apparently tonight's a free loud music night! ^_^
[23:57] <BiosElement> Yay for long as hell day tomorrow


[07:05] <ppisati> yo
[08:37] <cristian_c> Hi
[08:38] <cristian_c> I've opened this bug report much time ago: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/972604
[08:38] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 972604 in linux (Ubuntu) "168c:001c [HP Compaq Presario C700 Notebook PC] Wireless led button doesn't switch colors" [Low,Triaged]
[08:38] <cristian_c> I was told to open an upstream bug report
[08:39] <cristian_c> I've read it, but I've got some doubt:
[08:39] <cristian_c> for example: Please take care that when you provide the below information, you should be booted into the newest available upstream mainline kernel only. Failure to do this will have negative unintended consequences.
[08:40] <cristian_c> What kernel does it refer, exactly?
[08:40] <cristian_c> And then: While booted into the newest mainline kernel only describe how the bug is reproducible in the latest mainline kernel only. If this is a regression, please note the specific commit.
[08:40] <cristian_c> How can I find the commit?
[08:40] <cristian_c> Any ideas?
[08:54] <smb> cristian_c, Mainline kernel packages you can find at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ and about the regression part; if you never saw that working, then I would just assume this is not a regression.
[08:58] <cristian_c> smb, it's not a regression
[09:00] <smb> So, you just should clearly say that when doing an upstream bug report. And for confirmation try the latest mainline kernel (3.14-rc6) to see it has not been by chance fixed.
[09:00] <cristian_c> smb, I was told that a new bug report would be open for the regression, instead
[09:00] <smb> Which regression ?
[09:01] <cristian_c> smb, th regression that I found trying 3.13.0-031300rc5
[09:01] <cristian_c> smb, the orginal bug never has been resolved in many years
[09:02] <cristian_c> *original
[09:03] <cristian_c> smb, then, should I assume 3.14-rc6 kernel in the upstream bug report?
[09:03] <smb> Ah ok. So you would check with 3.14-rc whether that regression still happens (as well as in theory the leds thing). But if wireless works otherwise and its just the led I would not have too high hopes for ever getting them to work.
[09:04] <cristian_c> smb, but the workaround worked
[09:04] <cristian_c> before
[09:04] <cristian_c> smb, but reversed
[09:04] <cristian_c> and the there is the regression too
[09:04] <cristian_c> *then
[09:05] <cristian_c> smb, I've tried the 3.14 and the regression is confirmed
[09:08] <smb> cristian_c, So whatever the regression is (I have not read through the whole old report), you should open a new report for that and first try to resolve this in that report. For that you should try to figure out roughly when this happened (you could use the mainline kernels for that, too)
[09:09] <cristian_c> smb, ok
[09:09] <smb> cristian_c, Joe should be around on this channel a bit later. I see he had been working on the bug
[09:10] <cristian_c> smb, he has told me to open an upstream bug report
[09:10] <cristian_c> *that I should open
[09:10] <cristian_c> smb, I can open a new bug report for the regression
[09:10] <cristian_c> smb, but always in launchpad?
[09:10] <cristian_c> or upstream?
[09:14] <smb> cristian_c, Ultimately upstream as you verified its still a problem in 3.14. Though one also can open a launchpad bug, too and link that to the upstream bug (can be done later, too). Depends a bit on how Joe would like to handle it
[09:27] <smb> cristian_c, So just something in general. I must admit I have some difficulties understanding all the leds and buttons, expected behaviour and what the regression is. Might be just me as a non-native speaker but it general keep it as simple as possible and assume the reader has no clue how your laptop looks like. ;)
[09:28] <cristian_c> smb, the laptop has got a button with led
[09:29] <smb> By the way you can add a bit more info (and/or debug a bit more) by adding info what is in /sys/class/leds (that should have all the available leds). Also cat of trigger inside a led dir gives the available triggers.
[09:29] <smb> cristian_c, In the bug, irc is a bad media for info
[09:29] <cristian_c> it has got two states: enable/disabled , shown respectively with blue/red lights
[09:29] <cristian_c> smb, ok
[09:30] <cristian_c> smb, but I've already explained it in the report
[09:30] <smb> Also when you have written "none" to the trigger, you could manually play around with brightness. max_brigtness has the upper value
[09:30] <cristian_c> :)
[09:31] <cristian_c> smb, I'll try to add info about /sys/class in the report
[09:31] <cristian_c> *more info
[09:31] <smb> cristian_c, Sure and I understand you expect that led to be red when off (could be only if the radio is off or no transmition)
[09:32] <smb> and green when transmitting something
[09:33] <cristian_c> smb, workaround works, but lights are reversed, then there isn't a brightness problem
[09:33] <cristian_c> with workaround
[09:33] <smb> The workaround looks like you let the radio trigger the rx led (receive) instead of the tx (transmit)
 cristian_c, Sure and I understand you expect that led to be red when off (could be only if the radio is off or no transmition)
[09:35] <cristian_c> smb, exactly, the led should look red when wifi is off, and blue when wifi is on, but situation is inverted -> red light with wifi on and blue with wifi off
[09:35] <cristian_c> after performing the workaround, obviously
[09:36] <cristian_c> smb, before performing workaround, led i blinking
[09:36] <cristian_c> as it was related to network activity and not to wifi status
[09:37] <cristian_c> *led is
[09:38] <smb> cristian_c, So I am just guessing from the names of the led files phy0::tx and rx, the intention for those is signalling sending and receiving. I cannot tell whether there is more of them
[09:39] <smb> Like I said you could examine a bit what they do (colorwise) (its just one physically?) when you disable all triggers and write values into brightness
[09:44] <cristian_c> smb, there is only a led button
[09:44] <cristian_c> *wifi
[09:44] <cristian_c> then, there are the classic leds for laptops
[09:45] <cristian_c> *little leds (without buttons): power, hard disk, wifi, ...
[09:46] <cristian_c> smb, I've already tried to change values
[09:46] <cristian_c> and play with triggers, but I've never found a trick
[09:47] <cristian_c> It needs only the color reverse
[09:50] <smb> Ok, so the ath5k driver (or whatever) exports multiple logical leds for the same one (as it seems). Assuming a kind of multicolour led. Activating one end makes it glow red, the other blue. I am not really sure what the phy0radio trigger relates to, and whether there maybe is another phy0... one. A lot of these things only show up with the right modules loaded which gets triggered by the specific hardware found.
[10:22] <apw> ppisati, hey about ?  this led thing, is there any reason to build that in for anything other than arm* ?
[10:23] <ppisati> apw: nope AFAIK but i built-in in every arch just for coherence among them
[10:23] <ppisati> apw: if you prefer an armhf only, i'll do
[10:24] <apw> ppisati, i think that makes a little more sense yeah, and note i have pushed a start new release
[10:24] <apw> ppisati, i am happy to apply it manually as well
[10:24] <ppisati> apw: ok, i'll refresh the patchset
[10:24] <apw> ack
[10:59] <cristian_c> smb, I'll control these and I'll add more info in the launchpad bug report
[11:17] <smb> cristian_c, Thanks
[11:18] <smb> cking, apw btw, bug 1291930
[11:18] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1291930 in unity (Ubuntu) "Menus do not work while VNC screen of virt-manager is active" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1291930
[11:19] <cking> smb, i've confirmed it too
[12:29] <cking> rtg, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/PowerManagement/ThermalIssues
[15:16] <infinity> .win 58
[15:51] <apw> missed
[17:52] <mjg59> sforshee: I have a pile of patches for switcheroo and gmux that work for me here
[17:52] <mjg59> sforshee: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/retina_patches/
[18:03] <sforshee> mjg59: that url isn't working for me
[18:10] <mjg59> sforshee: Sorry, http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/retina_patches/
[18:17] <slangasek> apw, ogasawara: is there a wiki page I can refer to that explains the support cycle for the HWE stacks?
[18:17] <ogasawara> slangasek: yep, just a sec
[18:18] <ogasawara> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support
[18:18] <ogasawara> slangasek: that's got a few different views
[18:18] <ogasawara> slangasek: depending on the level of granularity you want
[18:18] <ogasawara> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
[18:18] <ogasawara> slangasek: and that is the horribly verbose version
[18:19] <slangasek> ogasawara: thanks
[18:20] <sforshee> mjg59: ah, you're using switcheroo to pass the edid to i915. Good idea.
[18:21] <sforshee> mjg59: so I no longer have the machine with gmux and lvds that I could test this with. I gave it to mlankhorst, not sure if he still has it.
[18:21] <sforshee> but he isn't in this channel. I'll check with him.
[21:03] <infinity> BenC: New SRU round for you.
[21:03] <infinity> BenC: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-ppc/+bug/1291125
[21:03] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1291125 in Kernel SRU Workflow "linux-ppc: <version to be filled> -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress]
[21:06] <BenC> infinity: ACK
[23:33] <infinity> zequence: New lowlatency rebases for you for Q and S, nothing for P this time.


[00:04] <tonyyarusso> yup
[05:21] <Takyoji> So, boys and girls
[05:21] <Takyoji> I'll be getting a new phone.
[05:21] <tonyyarusso> oh?  what?
[05:22] <Takyoji> I haven't decided on the specific model
[05:22] <Takyoji> Specifically Verizon as a provider
[05:23] <kermit> n900
[05:24] <tonyyarusso> N900 doesn't work on Verizon kermit (or else I'd probably have one)
[05:24] <kermit> change providers then
[05:24] <kermit> :P
[05:24] <tonyyarusso> The other providers have crappy coverage.
[05:25] <Takyoji> and I have 5 choices: http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/store/controller?item=phoneFirst&action=viewPhoneOverviewByDevice&deviceType=3G%20Smartphones#
[05:26] <kermit> you must buy it from them?
[05:26] <Takyoji> Those are the choices as of Android-based options
[05:27] <Takyoji> I'd assume that if you bought the phone directly from a vendor it'd be full price..
[05:27] <Takyoji> rather than being a deducted upfront cost with a 2-year contract
[05:27] <Takyoji> My only reason for a smartphone would be for SSH and a web browser
[05:28] <Takyoji> and perhaps some web development
[05:28] <Takyoji> and could use GPS in some cases
[05:31] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: sounds like either the Droid Incredible or Droid X.
[05:31] <tonyyarusso> I wouldn't count on any of them for GPS though - I have little confidence phone GPS is any good.
[05:33] <Takyoji> GPS is non-essential to me
[05:38] <Takyoji> I think I might just choose "LG Ally"
[05:39] <Takyoji> Most battery life, cheaper, QWERTY keyword, touchscreen, though just a 600MHz processor in comparison to the others which are 1GHz
[06:19] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: http://blogs.computerworld.com/16608/dell_expands_ubuntu_linux_desktop_offerings
[06:22] <Takyoji> Saw it
[06:23]  * tonyyarusso does a tiny "I told you so" dance
[06:24] <tonyyarusso> Not that you argued with me or anything, but hey
[06:30] <Takyoji> HDMI connection on a friggen smartphone, that's just insane..
[06:31] <tonyyarusso> saywhatnow?  That's crazy.
[06:33] <Takyoji> http://static.arstechnica.com/droidx/droidx_review_leftside.jpg
[06:41] <Takyoji> Yay for the Android SDK
[06:41] <Takyoji> Isn't Android purely Java?
[06:41] <Takyoji> Ahh, C/C++ for the core, Java for the UI
[07:14] <Takyoji> So are most of you skeptical against GNOME 3? :P
[07:14] <Takyoji> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/07/gnome-3-not-ready-yet-release-pushed-back-to-2011.ars
[07:24] <tonyyarusso> lol
[07:24] <tonyyarusso> anyone interested in purchasing a ThinkPad with an intermittent hardware issue?
[07:32] <Takyoji> What model? :P
[07:32] <Takyoji> also, what hardware issue? :P
[07:33] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: T43
[07:34] <tonyyarusso> I think there's either a slight crack in the motherboard or a solder connection or something like that.
[07:34] <tonyyarusso> It will occasionally become non-responsive, but either whacking it, rocking it back and forth, or pressing gently on the right side of the wrist rest makes it go again.
[07:35] <tonyyarusso> I should probably pull it apart to see if it's something obvious first, but it is getting close to time for a new laptop anyway.
[07:41] <tonyyarusso> I wonder if the hard drive just got unseated or something
[07:43] <Takyoji> I really need to donate to Wikipedia; it's like a crucial part of my life as an information repository
[08:00] <Takyoji> Does VMs in QEMU typically appear a little slow ever?
[08:00] <Takyoji> I feel like I'm getting like 10fps as of this Android VM
[08:00] <Takyoji> through the Android Emulator; which is basically QEMU supposedly
[08:01] <tonyyarusso> yes
[08:52]  * tonyyarusso pulled it apart a bit, put it back together, making sure everything looked clean and tight
[08:52] <tonyyarusso> Booted on the first try, so that's a pretty big improvement.
[08:53] <kermit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/?&fq&fq[]=trove:679
[08:55]  * Takyoji fails to catch what relevance Tivozation has to the second provided URL
[08:55] <tonyyarusso> And I can type without pausing to press the palmrest to make things appear on the screen - yay!
[08:56] <tonyyarusso> Appears to at least be temporarily resolved.
[08:56] <kermit> the second URL is a sourceforge search for GPLv3 projects
[08:56] <kermit> unless the link didnt work for you.. try this one http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/?&fq&fq%5B%5D=trove:679
[08:56] <tonyyarusso> You know, I would like using the GPL a lot more if it weren't so *long*.
[08:57] <tonyyarusso> I mean, it kind of requires a largish project to feel like it's even worth the bit-space for the text.
[08:58] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: even though it works now, I could see myself selling this in the nearish future if you were interested.
[08:59] <Takyoji> GPL v3 has provisions avoiding the possibility of Tivoization, correct?
[09:00] <tonyyarusso> yes
[09:02] <Takyoji> So I take it the licenses you prefer, are ones that aren't "free software licenses"? :P
[09:02] <tonyyarusso> hrm?  Why would you say that?
[09:02] <kermit> haha like the BSD license?  it has its uses i guess
[09:02] <tonyyarusso> the BSD license is a free software license.
[09:02] <tonyyarusso> (I actually like the terms of the GPL, just not the verbosity)
[09:03] <Takyoji> ahh, it's the modified BSD license that's GPL-approved
[09:03] <Takyoji> The original wasn't
[09:03] <tonyyarusso> well yeah, the original was dumb, and has been retracted by its author.
[09:04] <Takyoji> I'm trying to remember, Apache licensing has something against abusing software patents, correct?
[09:04] <tonyyarusso> I think so, yes.
[09:12]  * Takyoji leaves for the night
[09:12] <kermit> "patent retalliation"