[08:04] <gattler> testtest
[15:44] <gattler> Hi all, Is anyone around who has experimented with UEFI secure boot?
[15:48] <gattler> ping cyphermox
[15:51] <cyphermox> hello
[15:52] <gattler> hi somehow your named popped up when I was doing some research about UEFI secure boot ;=
[15:53] <gattler> It seems there is not really much support for UEFI secure boot
[15:53] <gattler> at least not besides "How can we make sure that our system boots"
[15:54] <gattler> are you aware of any work towards using UEFI secure boot to enhance the security?
[15:55] <gattler> afaik right now there is no support from any distro to sign your kernel and initramfs so that you can make sure the whole bootchain hasn't been tampared with
[16:02] <cyphermox> gattler: well, we do sign our kernels, so that is definitely signed
[16:03] <cyphermox> your own custom-built kernel would not be, unless you take the steps to sign the binary, and either enroll the binary hash in shim or enroll the key you used to sign
[16:04] <cyphermox> same goes for kernel modules, presumably, except I don't know exactly how to sign them (never had to do it)
[16:05] <cyphermox> on an Ubuntu system where you don't need third-party modules, if you boot in EFI with Secure Boot, things are signed, with the only gotcha that grub currently lets things go through even if they're not. I'm working on fixing that.
[16:06] <gattler> cyphermox: is the initramfs signed too?
[16:08] <cyphermox> no. it depends a lot on what you have installed, so it gets rebuilt when you do kernel updates, when you add some packages, etc.
[16:10] <gattler> in theory Ubuntu could sign the kernel and initramfs when they're installed by the user, right? Assuming the user has enrolled hi own cert in UEFI
[16:11] <gattler> or do you see any serious drawbacks of such an approach?
[16:14] <cyphermox> well, to do this you need to have your own keys created and enrolled in shim
[16:14] <gattler> why shim?
[16:15] <gattler> shim is only needed when I can't enroll my own keys in the UEFI?
[16:15] <cyphermox> well, or the system firmware. doing this in shim is easy since you're unlikely to need to replace shim with your own
[16:16] <cyphermox> shim keeps keys in UEFI too so that in the firmware you really just need the manufacturer key and the Microsoft key for example, because some systems might not let you change those or add new ones at all
[16:16] <cyphermox> signing things yourself is problem currently because making secure boot keys is not easy for the average user
[16:16] <gattler> yes, I agree
[16:16] <cyphermox> then there's the problem that you need the key, but if you keep it on the system, you're kind of defeating the purpose of that security, right?
[16:17] <gattler> Why that?
[16:17] <cyphermox> (ie. someone could log in when you're booted securely, sign some new binary with your key, and you'd boot again with a properly-signed kernel, module, etc.)
[16:17] <gattler> hm, how would he be able to login?
[16:18] <cyphermox> well, when you're at logging in to a system, you might only be limited by a single password, which may be easy to guess
[16:18] <cyphermox> again, considering the average user
[16:18] <gattler> ok
[16:19] <gattler> I have a completely different setup in mind ;)
[16:19] <cyphermox> so, if you can login by using the username provided already at a graphical login (for example), or by finding it out otherwise, and using a password as simple as 'password', you could reach the keys you need to sign a new binary
[16:19] <gattler> sure
[16:20] <cyphermox> that's roughly the "evil maid" scenario
[16:20] <gattler> well, "evil maid" is more about manipulating e.g. the kernel or initramfs where the user types in his disk password
[16:21] <cyphermox> depends what you're after
[16:21] <gattler> true
[16:21] <cyphermox> the idea is that you might not be after the login password, but after spying on the user
[16:21] <gattler> what I have in mind is a server setup. The server is located in a datacenter
[16:21] <cyphermox> sure
[16:21] <gattler> ideally you'd want to use disk encryption there
[16:22] <cyphermox> ok, but that's kind of irrelevant
[16:22] <gattler> so that the ppl there can't just open the case and get your disk
[16:22] <gattler> y?
[16:22] <cyphermox> if you keep the signing key on the server and someone manages to log in via ssh, they can sign a new binary, period
[16:22] <cyphermox> it doesn't need to be "lets reboot it now too"
[16:23] <cyphermox> they could wait until you next reboot
[16:23] <cyphermox> if the binary is signed, you might not know the difference.
[16:23] <gattler> but If they are able to login via ssh they probalby have already what they want :)
[16:23] <cyphermox> well, not necessarily
[16:24] <cyphermox> if you don't want to be detected, it's often nice to not keep an ssh session logged in ;)
[16:24] <gattler> anyways, imagine just for a moment I can keep the keys safe on the server
[16:24] <cyphermox> well, you could keep them securely off
[16:24] <gattler> oin a HSM e.g.
[16:25] <cyphermox> offloading signage to some other thing,
[16:25] <cyphermox> yep
[16:25] <gattler> so now I could sign the initramfs/grub2/kernel whenver they're installed
[16:25] <cyphermox> the key here is to balance how much trouble you'll have doing updates and signage and booting vs. the amount of security you need
[16:25] <cyphermox> yep
[16:26] <gattler> ok, inside my initramfs I keep the disk key file sealed with a TPM
[16:26] <cyphermox> ok
[16:27] <cyphermox> you know I'm just suggesting things right, and telling you what the possible issues are? I'm not saying things have to be one way or another :)
[16:27] <gattler> the pcr's used for sealing are the hashes of the firmware and the firmware configuration, but NOT the kernel image and the initramfs
[16:27] <cyphermox> ok
[16:28] <gattler> but as kernel images and initramfs are signed I can be sure that they are not tampered with
[16:28] <gattler> now the TPM can unseal the disk encryption file without user interaction
[16:28] <gattler> which is crucial in a server scenario
[16:29] <gattler> and the user can still update the kernel without breaking the TPM's chain of trust
[16:29] <gattler> because it's not part of it but secure via UEFI secure boot
[16:29] <cyphermox> sure
[16:30] <gattler> now Imagine you'd want to enable such a scenario for ubuntu-server users. What do you think is the biggest show-stopper
[16:32] <gattler> or do you see an alternative solution that would allow a server to use full disk-encryption without user interaction?
[16:33] <cyphermox> well, hooking up crypto for unlocking the disk might be fun
[16:34] <gattler> what do you mean by "hooking up crypto"?
[16:34] <cyphermox> I don't think we ship the scripts to do it, so you'd have to roll your own
[16:34] <cyphermox> and if you want to have /boot encrypted too, then grub currently doesn't have the modules to load it, I think
[16:34] <gattler> no /boot doesn't need to be encrypted
[16:35] <cyphermox> right, so you'be be using the typical LUKS setup, in which case it's a simple script
[16:35] <cyphermox> you just need to make the files available in the initramfs to ask the TPM for the key
[16:36] <gattler> cyphermox: I was more asking whether there are show-stoppers that would prevent something like this from being upstreamed
[16:36] <gattler> or if ubuntu has other plans to allow a server with encrypted disks
[16:37] <cyphermox> I don't see show-stoppers to upstream stuff like that
[16:37] <cyphermox> it tends to be platform-specific (ie. depends what TPM you have, if you have TPM, etc)
[16:38] <cyphermox> right now we provide encrypted disks for any system, but if you reboot a server you'd have to go type in the password
[16:38] <gattler> yeah
[16:38] <cyphermox> if you never reboot unattended, one cool thing you might be able to do if the servers are instrumented well enough, would be to have something like a Yubikey to give a challenge-response to unlock the disk, if you can properly forward the USB over the ILO of the server.
[16:38] <gattler> that's what I'm trying to avoid ;)
[16:38] <cyphermox> or over serial might work too
[16:39] <cyphermox> or even keep the nano keys in the server directly, so that someone leaving with disks would also have to take the tiny usb keys
[16:39] <cyphermox> there are so many options tbh
[16:39] <gattler> that'd be just a another small hurdle to jump over
[16:39] <gattler> stealing disks vs stealing disks + usb key
[16:40] <cyphermox> it's just that right now, they all need you to add some scripts to the initramfs, there's doc on the web for various ideas
[16:40] <cyphermox> well, you need to know that there is done
[16:40] <cyphermox> plus you're probably not as worried about stealing as you are about whether someone disposes of a disk without wiping it
[16:40] <gattler> yes
[16:41] <gattler> unwiped disks is a much bigger concern actually
[16:41] <gattler> who is checking the signature of the kernel? is it grub2 right now?
[16:43] <cyphermox> right now, what happens when you boot is that shim (signed by Microsoft) is loaded/checked by the UEFI firmware, shim loads grub (signed by Canonical), and grub loads the kernel (signed by Canonical again) by asking shim to verify the signature against its database
[16:43] <cyphermox> shim's database, which knows about the Canonical key
[16:43] <gattler> is there support to also check the signature of the initramfs
[16:44] <cyphermox> I don't know, I don't think so
[16:44] <gattler> hm, too bad
[16:44] <cyphermox> you'd have to ask the kernel team for that :)
[16:44] <gattler> ok, thanks for the interesting hints ;)
[16:45] <cyphermox> but as I said, currently we don't sign initramfs because it's generated on the system
[16:45] <gattler> which kinda defeats the security aspect of uefi secure boot ( at least in my eyes )
[16:46] <gattler> but I guess having each user to sign it's initramfs is not really an  option


[00:02] <Caesar> slangasek: good question
[00:02] <Caesar> I suspect badly
[00:15] <Keybuk> Caesar: ifupdown calls dhclient with -pf /var/run/... -lf /var/run/...
[00:16] <Keybuk>    [[ifconfig %iface% hw %hwaddress%]]
[00:16] <Keybuk>     dhclient3 [[-e IF_METRIC=%metric%]] -pf /var/run/dhclient.%iface%.pid -lf /var/lib/dhcp3/dhclient.%iface%.leases %iface% \
[00:16] <Keybuk> oh, no, the latter is /var/lib
[00:17] <Keybuk> ifupdown (0.6.7ubuntu2) dapper; urgency=low
[00:17] <Keybuk>   * Change the dhclient3 leases path to /var/lib/dhcp3 so the leases survive
[00:17] <Keybuk>     a reboot.  (Ubuntu: #18148)
[00:17] <Keybuk>  -- Scott James Remnant<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:11:30 +0000
[00:17] <Keybuk> #
[00:17] <Keybuk> amusing
[00:19] <Keybuk> looks like there's a bug there
[00:19] <Keybuk> NM uses /var/run anyway
[00:19] <Keybuk> so the two are out of sync
[00:20] <Caesar> Keybuk: that issue is an aside
[00:20] <Caesar> I'm more interested in the network being unconfigured when the machine switches to runlevel 2
[00:20] <Keybuk> does dhclient really fail if it can't write the lease file?
[00:20] <Caesar> The /var/lib, /var/run thing just got noticed in the process
[00:21] <Caesar> Keybuk: I haven't checked the failure behaviour yet
[00:21] <Keybuk> seems odd that it would do so, since it would try and write the lease file *after* setting the interface up
[00:21] <Caesar> Here, we have /var on the root filesystem so it's not an issue for us
[00:21] <Keybuk> we've had occasional bugs about the network being unconfigured throughout ubuntu's life
[00:21] <Keybuk> never tracked them down, because the people who can replicate it disappear
[00:22] <Caesar> But is my understanding correct? The system can exit single-user mode with the network still in a semi-configured state?
[00:22] <Keybuk> right
[00:22] <Caesar> That's... apalling
[00:23] <Caesar> I'm going to assume yanking the udev rules will return normalcy
[00:23] <Keybuk> there's a bug that we even have networking while in single-user mode
[00:23] <Keybuk> is that what you mean?
[00:23] <Caesar> Debian's single user mode is rather ridiculous
[00:23] <Keybuk> right, if you comment out the ifup rule then it'll bring networking up as before
[00:23] <Caesar> I think we'll do that
[00:23] <Keybuk> which will obviously block on dhcp in the boot process
[00:24] <Keybuk> but you probably want that for network-depending hosts
[00:24] <Caesar> Which would be most of them
[00:24] <Keybuk> at Google, sure
[00:24] <Caesar> I can't see how we're that exceptional in this regard
[00:24] <Keybuk> our default desktop install is quite the opposite, networking is generally brought up after login
[00:25] <Keybuk> and blocking the boot for 60s just because theres no network cable plugged in to your laptop is pessimal
[00:25] <Caesar> Yeah, that's the downside
[00:25] <Caesar> But we're not using NetworkManager
[00:25] <Caesar> Especially not on servers
[00:25] <Caesar> (or workstations for that matter)
[00:26] <Keybuk> why does it fail your boot though?  what are you using networking for during boot?
[00:26] <Keybuk> oh, syslog
[00:26] <Caesar> Yes
[00:26] <Keybuk> so syslog's nslookup fails?
[00:26] <Caesar> Yes
[00:26] <Caesar> This use case is fairly typical I'd have thought
[00:26] <Caesar> There's going to be all sorts of network-dependent things going on in runlevel 2
[00:26] <Keybuk> dunno, you're the first person in ~3 yeras to notice <g>
[00:27] <Keybuk> technically nothing in runlevel 2 should be network dependant
[00:27] <Keybuk> since you might not have a network
[00:27] <Caesar> Oh come on
[00:27] <Caesar> So where's your webserver supposed to go?
[00:27] <Keybuk> web servers aren't generally configured by hostname?
[00:27] <Keybuk> apache's conf uses ips
[00:28] <Caesar> They could have config that requires a DNS lookup
[00:28] <Caesar> You can't tell me that nothing that starts at boot shouldn't have a DNS dependency
[00:28] <Keybuk> well, nothing in the default install
[00:28] <Keybuk> otherwise the boot will fail every time, since you won't have DNS until the user logs in :)
[00:28] <Caesar> Think servers for a moment
[00:28] <Keybuk> bear in mind that there's other things that lockstep the networking
[00:29] <Keybuk> we call ifup -a in rcS
[00:29] <Keybuk> that locks out if another ifup is still running
[00:29] <Caesar> Hmm
[00:29] <Caesar> So we have an ifup that runs at S10
[00:29] <Keybuk> so if your network card is plugged in, detected and firmware uploaded before that point - you're fine
[00:30] <Caesar> It's unclear if that continues running, or fires off dhclient and returns fairly quickly
[00:30] <Keybuk> it continues running until after dhclient finishes
[00:30] <Caesar> ok
[00:30] <Keybuk> (since it does the if-up.d stuff afterwards)
[00:30] <Caesar> Of course
[00:30] <Keybuk> I last looked at this stuff for dapper, so it's possible that someone's broken it
[00:30] <Keybuk> but a quick glance says it's ok
[00:31] <Caesar> We've seen the second ifup -a in S40networking not configure eth0 because /var/run/network/ifstate claimed it already was configured
[00:31] <Keybuk> sure
[00:31] <Keybuk> you get that with a dhclient timeout
[00:31] <Keybuk> ifup can't tell the dhcp failed
[00:31] <Keybuk> or the wpa failed
[00:31] <Keybuk> etc.
[00:31] <Keybuk> it's a general design bug
[00:31] <Keybuk> ifstate only really records "someone tried to bring it up"
[00:31] <Caesar> Yeah
[00:32] <Keybuk> I have seen reports where dhcp fails during boot for no explicable reason
[00:32] <Caesar> If only we had dhclient output from the udev invocation
[00:32] <Keybuk> the logs show it apparently trying to discover an ip
[00:32] <Keybuk> and if you do it later, it works
[00:32] <Keybuk> I usually suggest init=/bin/bash, start syslog, then exec /sbin/init
[00:33] <Keybuk> (with syslog dumping to a file in /dev)
[00:33] <Caesar> Hmm, that's a new one
[00:33] <Caesar> We can try that
[00:33] <Caesar> Poor man's boot logging eh?
[00:33] <Keybuk> indeed
[00:33]  * Keybuk is a very poor man :p
[00:33] <Caesar> If only upstart did it ;-)
[00:34] <Keybuk> one day
[00:34] <Keybuk> it really is on my todo list
[00:34] <Keybuk> and I'm making forward progress through that again now :p
[00:34] <Caesar> Cool
[00:34] <Keybuk> so, from the sound of it:
[00:34] <Keybuk> ifup eth0 has run because
[00:34] <Keybuk>  - ifstate says it's up
[00:34] <Keybuk>  - ifup -a in S40networking doesn't block
[00:35] <Keybuk> if ifup hadn't run, ifstate wouldn't say it had, so S40networking would bring it up
[00:35] <Keybuk> if ifup was still running, it would hold a lock, so ifup -a would be locked out
[00:35] <Caesar> So it'd be nice to know wtf dhclient has done by the time S40networking has completed, one way or the other
[00:37] <Keybuk> also see whether commenting out the udev rule helps or not
[00:37] <Keybuk> if it does, it implies there's something amiss with when dhcp is running
[00:37] <Keybuk> but I can't think what that might be
[00:38]  * Keybuk heads for bed (which is where I was on my way to :p)
[00:38] <Caesar> Okay, I'll try and let you know
[00:38] <Caesar> Goodnight!
[01:25] <ScottK> slangasek: if something's wanting to get promoted to Main only because it's an alternate depends (and not even the first one listed) and we don't otherwise want it in Main, is adding it to extra-excludes in the appropriate see the correct solution?
[01:58] <bbs> hey, i'm writing an initscript for a program that my company is writing ... we are going to package it very nicely for ubuntu because i said you guys are where a lot of heat is at right now -- personally i use source based distros (how silly of me i know :) ) -- but i was wondering where a good guide for writing initialization scripts (upstart -- not exactly sure how your system works) -- so that i can properly instantiate things that are required for a p
[01:58] <bbs> any links?
[01:58] <bbs> or documentation?
[02:00] <sommer> bbs: you might try: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html
[02:02] <bbs> does that go over discussion of creating pid files?
[02:02] <bbs> sommer: i'm looking to really support ubuntu the best most likely
[02:10] <slangasek> ScottK: bomber kapman killbots promoted, thanks
[02:11] <slangasek> stgraber: the update-manager one sounds transient; the file-roller one is resolved for the next run; and the xserver one is in tjaalton's hands
[02:11] <ScottK> slangasek: Great.  Thanks.  A little furhter along you'll run into a request for kdeedu-kvtml-data to get promoted to fix kdeedu.
[02:11] <slangasek> ScottK: yep, was just about to do that one now :)
[02:12] <ScottK> slangasek: Great.
[02:12]  * ScottK will wait for you to get to his seeds question in due course then.
[02:14] <slangasek> Keybuk: er, Caesar is most certainly not "the first person in three years" to notice network-dependent stuff going on in runlevel 2
[02:15] <slangasek> I've just been holding my tongue and praying we can migrate to upstart soon
[02:15] <slangasek> s/upstart/& jobs/
[02:16] <slangasek> Keybuk: also, your definition of runlevel 2 is de facto wrong for Debian, so yeah.
[02:17] <Chipzz> slangasek: I've alwyas wondered why the usage of runlevels differed in debian anyway
[02:17] <slangasek> because they differ everywhere, because they're not a standard?
[02:18] <Chipzz> let me put it otherwise: why they differed fmor the de facto standard, being redhat
[02:18] <Chipzz> (de facto standard: 3 -> text; 5 -> graphical login)
[02:19] <StevenK> And why is RedHat is the de facto standard?
[02:19] <slangasek> ScottK: extra-excludes> hmm, I would've expected germinate to be smart enough to sort that out on its own?
[02:19] <slangasek> or maybe not
[02:19] <ScottK> slangasek: The package in question is kdesvn.
[02:19] <Chipzz> because the way redhat did it, like it or not, is how most other distro's did it. and the fact that redhat has long been one of the most popular distro's
[02:20] <ScottK> It's listed on component mismatches and as nearly as I can determine only becuase one of it's binary packages is an alternate depends for kdesdk.
[02:20]  * slangasek throws bits of rpm at Chipzz ;P
[02:21] <Chipzz> to my knowledge, but I may be mistaken on that, debian and ubuntu are the only significant distro's that have 2 as the equivalent runlevel of what redhat et use for 3
[02:21] <Chipzz> (well, given the different way a grpahical login is started that's not 100% true either, but...)
[02:21] <Chipzz> s
[02:22]  * Chipzz chews on them and burps ;P
[02:22] <Chipzz> (slangasek: as an aside: I have done lots of rpm packaging in a different life ;))
[02:22]  * ScottK will go out on a limb and guess the other Debian derivatives do it similarly.
[02:22] <slangasek> I have, too; you'll note what I do now instead
[02:22] <StevenK> Hah
[02:23] <Chipzz> ScottK: yeah, but can you call those debian derivatives significant? :P
[02:23] <pwnguin> what about the embedded debian derivatives?
[02:24] <Chipzz> pwnguin: isn't emdebian (or whatever it's called) a subproject of debian?
[02:24] <pwnguin> Chipzz: there's others
[02:24] <Chipzz> afaik it's maintained by a debian maintainer
[02:24] <pwnguin> angstrom
[02:25] <pwnguin> openembedded
[02:28] <slangasek> ScottK: yeah, I guess excluding that package is the only way to clear it out of the mismatches, doh
[02:29] <slangasek> Chipzz: it's maintained by a Debian developer; that doesn't mean it's a subproject of Debian, it's not really hosted using Debian resources...
[04:58] <ScottK> slangasek: If you're still around ... Need binary promotion for kpartloader to fix kdesdk installability.
[04:58] <slangasek> done
[04:59] <ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
[05:39] <ScottK> slangasek: I think python-plasma is the last binary promotion Kubuntu CD/DvD are needing.
[05:45] <ScottK> Nope.  I'm wrong.
[05:46] <ScottK> slangasek: Need libkdcraw7 libkdcraw7-dev libkexiv2-7 libkexiv2-7-dev too.
[05:47] <NCommander> oooh
[05:47] <NCommander> I think ...
[05:47] <NCommander> I think PyKDE4 built ...
[05:49] <NCommander> ahaha
[05:49] <NCommander> AWESOME
[05:49] <NCommander> It builds!
[05:49] <ScottK> Congratulations.
[05:49] <NCommander> I just need to make cmake work properly now
[05:49] <NCommander> and we're fully in business
[05:49] <pitti> Good morning
[05:49] <NCommander> hey Pici
[05:49] <NCommander> *pitti
[05:50] <pitti> hey NCommander
[05:50] <NCommander> I just about got kde4bindings building on arm
[05:50] <NCommander> wooo
[05:51] <StevenK> Morning pitti
[05:51] <pitti> slangasek, LaserJock: we currently don't have a vehicle for moving the GNOME help files from packages to langpacks, UDS discussion was insufficient; I plan to continue it with the soyuz team via email
[05:51] <StevenK> pitti: It's only 6:50am! \o/
[05:51] <ScottK> Good monring pitti.
[05:52] <ScottK> morning even.
[05:52] <pitti> StevenK: hey, at least I slept through until the alarm went off at 6 (my wife has to get up at that time)
[05:52] <StevenK> pitti: Woot! Progress!
[05:53] <ScottK> pitti: Would you be up for some binary promotions?  slangasek seems to have dropped off.
[05:54] <ScottK> python-plasma libkdcraw7 libkdcraw7-dev libkexiv2-7 libkexiv2-7-dev are the remaining ones needed to get KDE installable for the Alpha milestone.
[05:55]  * ScottK also casually mentions that there are two MIR waiting for ubuntu-mir needed to get lintian installable again ...
[05:57]  * StevenK NBS's out libboost1.36, half tempted to NEW it, just so he can remove it again
[06:00]  * ScottK notes the time in his TZ and decides to go to bed.
[06:00] <ScottK> Good night all.
[06:02] <pitti> ScottK: good night!
[06:05] <mahesh> i compiled a fresh kernel and then now want to add features like.... automounting the any scsi devices..... i need help.....!
[06:09] <LaserJock> pitti: so the plan would be to have binarymangler pull out all the C/ .xml files and put them on LP somewhere and then put them in the langpacks?
[06:10] <pitti> LaserJock: well, everything *except* C, but yes
[06:11] <LaserJock> oh, sorry
[06:16] <StevenK> -- Found FFMPEG INCLUDES: LIBFFMPEG_INCLUDE_DIR-NOTFOUND
[06:16] <StevenK> kdenlive, you fail
[06:17] <LaserJock> pitti: but the plan isn't to be translating though? my experience of xml2po, etc. are that I wouldn't rely on them for complete automation
[06:17] <ScottK> StevenK: Which version are you looking at?
[06:18] <StevenK> ScottK: 0.5.svn20071228-0.0ubuntu3
[06:19] <ScottK> There's a 0.7 that someone is working on packaging.
[06:19] <StevenK> Then I'll stop caring, since I'm only caring for NBS
[06:20] <ebroder> Any bored backporters I could get to ACK on LP #301283, LP #305001, or LP #308800?
[06:20] <StevenK> ScottK: Apparently, you were sleeping
[06:21] <ScottK> Not quite yet.  I'm slow.
[06:21] <mahesh> i compiled a fresh kernel and then now want to add features like.... automounting the any scsi devices..... i need help.....!
[06:21] <ScottK> ebroder: Did anyone answer the rdepends testing question on sqlalchemy?
[06:22] <ebroder> ScottK: I...didn't know there was an rdepends testing question
[06:23] <ebroder> ScottK: Give me a second to look at what the rdepends are
[06:25] <ScottK> ebroder: In the bug now.
[06:31] <ebroder> ScottK: Would you consider it sufficient to just test against the versions in Hardy?
[06:31] <calc> pitti: got them uploaded :)
[06:32] <ScottK> ebroder: yes.  If those work, it's great.  If they don't, they need to be backported too.
[06:32] <pitti> calc: \o/
[06:32] <mahesh> i compiled a fresh kernel and then now want to add features like.... automounting the any scsi devices..... i need help.....!
[06:34] <calc> pitti: also stripped out ubuntu specific bits and created debdiffs and filed the patches in debian bts :) heh
[06:34] <ScottK> mahesh: This isn't a help channel.  Asking the same question every 10 minutes doesn't change that.  Ask in #ubuntu.
[06:34] <pitti> calc: appreciated, so let's hope we can sync them again soon
[06:35] <calc> of course as debian is in freeze it may take them a while to upload with the patches
[06:39] <mahesh> ScottK>> i thought some one would help.... #ubuntu is for end-user support
[06:43] <calc> hmm my xom build failed on the buildd, worked fine on my local box
[06:43]  * calc is going to upgrade his chroot and verify it still works locally
[06:50] <calc> oh this failure is ugly it worked in my non-clean chroot
[06:50] <calc> when i cleaned it and rebuilt it fails :\
[06:50] <calc> so apparently it needs something else
[06:50] <calc>     [javac] The system is out of resources.
[06:50] <calc>     [javac] Consult the following stack trace for details.
[06:50] <calc>     [javac] java.lang.StackOverflowError
[06:50] <calc> lovely
[06:51] <StevenK> calc: More RAM? :-P
[06:51] <calc> heh
[06:51] <calc> not likely the problem
[06:52] <calc> i just wish i knew what i had installed previously that allowed it to build ok
[06:52] <calc> hehe
[06:52] <calc> i found it but i don't know why it helps
[06:53] <calc> default-jdk-builddep works just default-jdk by itself does not
[06:55]  * calc uploaded fixed version
[06:56] <calc> pitti: can you process the rest of the packages once they hit the archive in an hour or so? :)
[06:57] <pitti> calc: right, -builddep is for building, default-jdk-headless is for binary dependencies
[06:57] <pitti> calc: I'll try (however, note that I'll block at least one pacakge, since we are in alpha-2 freeze)
[06:59] <calc> pitti: well default-jdk vs default-jdk-builddep (builddep was supposed to only be needed when building gcj packages)
[06:59] <calc> pitti: ok
[06:59] <pitti> oh?
[06:59] <pitti> calc: anyway, are you using -headless? for most libraries that should suffice
[07:00] <calc> yes for the runtime dep
[07:00] <calc> " - build dependencies: If a source package builds a "-gcj" package, don't
[07:00] <calc>    stop building it yet. This will slow down the gij runtime. Instead,
[07:00] <calc>    use "default-jdk-builddep", which depends on the default jdk and
[07:00] <calc>    java-gcj-compat-dev. If no "-gcj" package is built, use default-jdk
[07:00] <calc>    as a build dependency."
[07:00] <pitti> hm, ok
[07:00] <calc> that was from doko's email, sorry for the crummy line-breaks
[07:02]  * calc headed to bed now, bbl
[07:03] <pitti> calc: sleep well!
[07:09] <dholbach> good morning
[07:13] <LaserJock> morning dholbach
[07:13] <dholbach> hi LaserJock
[07:24] <highvoltage> morning LaserJock and dholbach
[07:25] <dholbach> hi highvoltage
[07:30]  * LaserJock waves to highvoltage
[07:38] <highvoltage> LaserJock: did you get a chance to go by to the UDS?
[07:45] <LaserJock> highvoltage: no, just did some remote stuff
[07:46] <pitti> stgraber: yay MOTU! congratulations!
[08:18] <pitti> hi tkamppeter
[08:25] <LeviTheSmith2> THANK YOU!
[08:26] <LeviTheSmith2> I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in the other channel
[08:26] <LeviTheSmith2> My old laptop I got didn't work well with Windows(function keys/quick keys didnt work), Fedora(same as windows, plus wireless and audio didnt work), Solaris(same as fedora). Ubuntu: Audio worked after the first boot - no need to install drivers. Function keys work - i can turn the volume done now!. Wireless worked out of the box too! :D
[08:26] <LeviTheSmith2> s/done/down
[08:27] <LeviTheSmith2> If anyone's wondering, the model is Asus A2H 2.66ghz
[08:27] <tkamppeter> pitti, hi
[08:57] <lool> pitti: I didn't get very clear feedback on libv4l versions fixing what or breaking what (didn't get any regression report so far I think), and I was tempted to stop with the 0.5.6 SRU, but the last comment on LP #286070 encourages me to look at SRU-ing 0.5.7; the diff is minimal and fixes a missing argument in a syscall
[08:58] <lool> pitti: What do you think of http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/libv4l-0.5.7.diff ?
[08:59] <lool> It a) adds debug code b) handles more error cases nicely c) fixes the number of args to SYS_mmap2
[09:00] <NCommander> hey lool
[09:01] <lool> hey NCommander, how is it going?
[09:01] <NCommander> lool, finally fixed kde4bindings on ARM
[09:02] <NCommander> It was a combination of five bugs that had to be fixed to get it going
[09:02] <lool> NCommander: I read yesterday that you found a broken configure check
[09:02] <NCommander> yeah
[09:02] <NCommander> About the only thing that WASN'T broken was sip -_-;
[09:02] <NCommander> go figure
[09:03] <lool> NCommander: When do you plan to upload this?  I'm happy to sponsor ASAP to get more armel stuff building
[09:03] <NCommander> We're in freeze
[09:03] <NCommander> So Friday assuming alpha 2 releases on time
[09:03] <lool> You've got sponsoring in place for this?
[09:03] <NCommander> (all the patches are on launchpad and/or in the appropriate bazaar branches)
[09:03] <NCommander> ScottK, apachelogger or Riddell will do it
[09:04]  * NCommander is using the opportunity to rebuild all the KDE packages again from scratch just to make sure there are no overlooked OOPS
[09:04] <lool> Cool
[09:04] <NCommander> I'm also sending the necessary patchsets to the apporiate upstreams
[09:05] <lool> Great; would you mind pointing me at the corresponding upstream bugs when these are filed?  I'd like to subscribe to them
[09:05] <NCommander> I can't find a bugtracker for PyQT4
[09:05] <NCommander> so that's just going to be an email to their mailing list
[09:05] <NCommander> lool, https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177965 - theres one of the KDE ones, I have to file two more to get all the ARM patches in
[09:06] <directhex> NCommander, any issues in the cli bindings on arm?
[09:06] <NCommander> None to my knowledge
[09:06] <NCommander> But I only built pykde4 (which takes two hours by itself)
[09:06] <NCommander> So I'm doing a full rebuild to make sure there is nothing broken
[09:06] <directhex> yeah, kdebindings is bad enough on a 2+ghz core2
[09:07] <NCommander> Go 233MHz ARM :-)!
[09:07]  * NCommander actually has to wait for kde4libs to finish building since I needed to change parts of its build system
[09:09] <directhex> i wonder whether the kubuntu people applied my cli plasma examples fixes
[09:09] <tjaalton> pitti: hey, should jockey not offer to install nvidia/fglrx before they are fixed to support the new ABI, or how should it be handled
[09:10] <pitti> lool: doesn't look too bad, should get proper testing, though
[09:11] <pitti> tjaalton: I can temporarily disable it if you want
[09:11] <lool> pitti: Naturally
[09:11] <NCommander> directhex, nope, we disabled the examples
[09:11] <lool> pitti: I did test it in Debian and in Ubuntu before pushing to my ppa
[09:11] <lool> pitti: I'll open a new SRU bug for this, thanks
[09:12] <tjaalton> pitti: I believe it should be disabled, although apt would refuse to install them too
[09:13] <directhex> NCommander, that's option 2, of course. it seems some silly bugger in upstream changed a property into a method, so foo.Size became foo.Size() (which is what the 2 patches changed)
[09:13] <NCommander> directhex, blame the guy who did kde4bindings
[09:14]  * NCommander would include the patch if it was risk free for breaking ARM builds
[09:15] <directhex> NCommander, it's adding six brackets between two .cs files. i imagine the risk of regression is small - unless there are other issues building the examples which didn't show up on amd64
[09:15]  * NCommander just got kde4bindings working on ARM
[09:15]  * NCommander has no desire to touch it until after its uploaded and ACCEPTED
[09:18] <lool> What's the syntax in launchpad to link to a comment in another bug again?  I thought it was bug #1234#c12 but it's not
[09:18] <lool> ups
[09:23] <directhex> NCommander, i posted both patches with a 72h lifetime, so can you save them someplace?
[09:23] <NCommander> directhex, attach them to a bug against kde4bindings, and set the milestone to alpha 3
[09:28] <directhex> NCommander, do i have the ability to set milestones?
[09:28] <NCommander> oh right
[09:28] <NCommander> your not in bugcontrol
[09:28] <NCommander> Just link me to the bug, and I'll set the milestones and such
[09:28] <directhex> bug 308891
[09:30] <pitti> tjaalton: uploaded
[09:30] <tjaalton> pitti: thanks
[09:57] <tseliot> mvo, seb128: gnome-control-center and gnome-desktop build again (and actually work too) in Jaunty now.
[09:57] <mvo> Keybuk: did you had a chance to look at the sponsor request for #304774 (sysklogd)? I will take it unless you have some objections
[10:00] <tseliot> mvo: can you merge from lp:~albertomilone/gnome-desktop/tseliot-fixes and from lp:~albertomilone/gnome-control-center/tseliot-fixes ?
[10:01] <mvo> tseliot: thanks a lot! will do the merge now
[10:01] <tseliot> mvo: good
[10:02] <mvo> cjwatson_: could you please add me (temprarely) to the debian-installer team so that I can push a (trivial) patch against the desktop file of usb-creator (bug #286924)
[10:20] <mvo> tseliot: merged and pushed, thanks again!
[10:21] <tseliot> mvo: great, thanks :-)
[10:28] <cjwatson> mvo: ubuntu-installer you mean? done
[10:30] <mvo> cjwatson: thanks
[10:40] <emgent> norsetto: \o/
[10:41] <norsetto> emgent: ah, somebody alive! Hi emgent
[11:45] <asac> hmm ... does the accessibility toolkit we ship in gnome by default have a name? how is it called?
[11:48] <pitti> ATK?
[12:04] <fabbione> soren: if the server team is interested, i just released redhat-cluster 3.0.0-alpha1 upstream.
[12:08] <soren> fabbione: Cool.
[12:16] <asac> pitti: ok ... isnt that an abstract layer on top of specific implementations?
[12:17] <pitti> asac: maybe it is a spec, too, but it's literally called atk1.0 (source package)
[12:17] <asac> ok thanks
[12:18] <asac> pitti: did we turn this on by default in intrepid or was that on foreever?
[12:19] <pitti> asac: it's a basic property of GTK, but some features aren't enabled by default
[12:19] <pitti> asac: see "Hilfstechnologien" in System -> Einstellungen
[12:20] <asac> pitti: yeah i know. just wonder if we enabled more features by default since intrepid
[12:20] <asac> there is a firefox bug which happens much more reliably in intrepid than in hardy
[12:20] <asac> which could be related to atk
[12:46] <stgraber> pitti: thanks
[12:48] <ogra> stgraber, so now on to the main upload permission :)
[12:48] <ogra> sadly TB meeint is only in a week
[12:48] <ogra> *meeting
[12:50] <stgraber> ogra: yep :) btw, I'll likely have a new ldm and ltsp to upload today, I'm doing some testing and trying to fix that ldm-ubuntu-theme thing (other than just reverting to the old gtk)
[12:51] <ogra> stgraber, did you just copy the human gtkrc ?
[12:52] <ogra> actually that shouldnt even be needed ... the old python code had an automatic fallback to use the system gtkrc, i wonder why that doesnt happen anymoe
[12:52] <stgraber> ogra: at the moment I just replaced ubuntu-theme by gtk2-engines-ubuntulooks
[12:53] <ogra> ubuntulooks is dead
[12:53] <ogra> if you upload that ldm will pull it back on the CD
[12:53] <ogra> so that wont work
[12:54] <stgraber> hmm, now that I think of it, is ubuntu-theme also supposed to work on Intrepid ?
[12:54] <ogra> yes, its the default
[12:54] <ogra> and it uses murrine
[12:55] <ogra> just copy /usr/share/themes/Human/gtk-2.0/gtkrc into the ldm-theme-ubuntu package
[12:55] <ogra> that should make it work
[12:55] <stgraber> ok, so the problem isn't that I'm testing with a backport on Intrepid ... (I'm still waiting for an instalable jaunty)
[12:57] <ogra> do you have murrine installed in the chroot ?
[12:57] <ogra> the intrepid package didnt pull it in ... (ldm should still fall back to the default gtkrc though)
[13:09] <stgraber> ogra: ah, ok so I'll try installing murrine by hand (I really need a Jaunty box ...)
[13:09] <ogra> just do a vbox intrepid install and upgrade ?
[13:11] <stgraber> well, I'm just waiting for ubuntu-desktop to actually install, then I'll reinstall my laptop (it was last installed with Intrepid alpha-1)
[13:14] <ogra> oh
[13:14] <ogra> you dont upgrade by final release ?
[14:16] <cinnamon> i hope this is the right place to ask. i think it is not good that bugs in ubuntu launchpad time out, when not fixed. who made this decision and why?
[14:20] <cjwatson> they don't actually (at the moment), it just says they do
[14:21] <cjwatson> https://help.launchpad.net/Bugs/Expiry
[14:22] <cjwatson> the implementation was more a Launchpad decision than one of ours, although our bug team did comment on it
[14:29] <cinnamon> thanks cjwatson
[14:46] <rudchenkos> hi there. could anyone point me to an info how to use debug symbols from a *-dbg package?
[14:47] <Keybuk> gdb will pick them up automatically
[14:49] <rudchenkos> Keybuk, oh, it knows the "/usr/lib/debug/" path?
[14:59] <Notch-1> hi, i'm looking for the persistent/casper mode developers, can somebody help me?
[15:10] <luckyone> Dear ubuntu-devel, The new 64-bit package for pulseaudio that hit repos last night is such an amazing improvement. I want to sincerely thank everyone who played a part in putting it together. Best regards, luckyone!
[15:12] <ogra> luckyone, send flowers to TheMuso (once he shows up)
[15:18] <DktrKranz> ogra: Debian recently used cookies to hug people :)
[15:19] <ogra> so we'll see a lot fat DDs soon ?
[15:19] <DktrKranz> probably
[15:20] <DktrKranz> especially if they plan to release before 2009!
[15:26] <Mez> ogra: there'll be one mopre fat DD whenever FD get around to approving me ;)
[15:27] <ogra> haha
[16:31]  * steron is away (will be back !)
[16:32] <stgraber> ogra: I copied /usr/share/themes/Human/gtk-2.0/gtkrc to greeter-gtkrc and now it works :)
[16:32] <ogra> great :)
[16:35] <stgraber> ogra: hmm, I see half of the ldm themes use gartoon and the other half use Human, which one should we use ? (icon theme)
[16:35] <ogra> Human
[16:36] <ogra> only keep gartoon for Edubuntu
[16:36] <ogra> (we'll likely need to fiddle with deps here)
[16:47] <mok0> stgraber: congrats!
[16:48] <stgraber> mok0: thanks
[16:48] <stgraber> ogra: ok
[16:50] <sianis> hi
[16:50] <kelemengabor> hi sianis :)
[16:50] <sianis> hi kelemengabor
[16:52]  * Keybuk just can't get git fast-export|bzr fast-import to work on the udev tree :-/
[16:55] <mvo> hello kelemengabor, sianis
[16:55] <kelemengabor> sianis: here is my idea: we need to archive the ddtp po-files in bzr at the time of changing the translated distribution in rosetta
[16:55] <calc> pitti: do you have time to review the uploads i did last night wrt the mir?
[16:56] <kelemengabor> translators will translate that, and we export that
[16:56] <kelemengabor> then merge it to the archived translations of current-1
[16:56] <kelemengabor> and not to the pot of current-1
[16:57] <mvo> kelemengabor: we could create projects in rosetta for each release, not sure if rosetta would be able to handle that
[16:57] <flowolf> hi all
[16:57] <kelemengabor> because we would lose changed strings
[16:57] <flowolf> I just noticed that many -dev packages got removed from older ubuntu releases
[16:57] <mvo> kelemengabor: this would give us the "suggest strings from other releases" feature as well
[16:57] <flowolf> what's the reason for this?
[16:57] <kelemengabor> mvo: yeah, but this is unnecessary
[16:57] <mvo> kelemengabor: ok, even better
[16:58] <kelemengabor> mvo: suggest strings is great, but not for 1000 strings :)
[16:58] <flowolf> and is it possible to have them back?
[16:58] <kelemengabor> the main thing is that translators would ideally have nothing to do
[16:58] <calc> flowolf: mentioning at least one of the packages by name might help someone determine the cause
[16:58] <kelemengabor> to see their translations in older releases
[16:58] <flowolf> calc: http://packages.ubuntu.com/feisty/i386/build-essential/download
[16:59] <kelemengabor> we should merge back automagically
[16:59] <flowolf> calc: try to download this
[16:59] <calc> flowolf: ah yea feisty is dead
[16:59] <calc> flowolf: you didn't see the notice go out a while back?
[16:59] <kelemengabor> and take care to not to lose anything that already existed
[16:59] <calc> "Ubuntu 7.04 reaches end-of-life on October 19, 2008"
[16:59] <flowolf> calc: so you removed the -dev packages ?
[17:00] <calc> flowolf: i didn't but the archive admin probably removed the entirety of feisty
[17:00] <flowolf> nope, feasty is out there
[17:00] <kelemengabor> because packages can move between repositories, and strings can change, we need to keep existing po-files in bzr,
[17:00] <flowolf> you can still download and install "regular" packages
[17:01] <flowolf> it's only the -dev packages, like build-essential or libc6-dev that disappeared
[17:01] <calc> flowolf: ah ok, well i have no idea but since it is completely unsupported now i wouldn't be surprised if they removed bits of it
[17:01] <kelemengabor> and at updates, create a compendium file from newly exported files
[17:01] <flowolf> calc: still the packages are still there, http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/b/build-essential/
[17:01] <kelemengabor> and merge that compendium to the po files
[17:01] <flowolf> it is only their names to be wrong in the package file
[17:02] <calc> http://packages.ubuntu.com/feisty/i386/build-essential/download <- that page comes up to the mirror list
[17:02] <flowolf> so you guys broke development packages on purpose for some misterious reason...
[17:02] <kelemengabor> this will protect us against strings moved from one po file to the other
[17:03] <Keybuk> cjwatson: didn't you have some patches to make bzr fast-import work?
[17:04] <cjwatson> Keybuk: I don't think udev worked for me either so they probably aren't relevant
[17:04] <kelemengabor> I see this is rather complicated and resource-wasting, but should be a little more elegant than just using the current po files for all the older releases
[17:04] <cjwatson> flowolf: no, you need to use old-releases.ubuntu.com if you're using feisty
[17:04] <calc> flowolf: hmm actually no its gone completely, 11.3ubuntu1 was in gutsy which is why that package is still on the site (i think)
[17:04] <calc> flowolf: plain 11.3 was what was in edgy/feisty
[17:05] <cjwatson> flowolf: sorry but we simply don't have space to keep feisty on the standard mirror hierarchy
[17:05] <Keybuk> tbh, git fast-export crashes with the udev repository
[17:05] <Keybuk> so I'm probably doomed anyway
[17:05] <flowolf> cjwatson: that's good enough
[17:06] <mvo> kelemengabor: the apt-ddtp-tools can generate Translation-$lang -> po -> Translation-$lang so the current (latest) translation status in the archive can be used to create po/pot files
[17:07] <flowolf> it is working
[17:07] <flowolf> cjwatson: thank you
[17:07]  * calc forgot that it went somewhere else when it was removed :)
[17:07] <kelemengabor> mvo: cool, but using the current po files for older releases will lose some data, unfortunately
[17:08] <mvo> kelemengabor: true, it would have to be a merge of old and new I guess
[17:09] <kelemengabor> yeah, this is why I mentioned storing the po files in bzr
[17:09] <mvo> kelemengabor: I need to go for dinner, I will be back in ~30min, ok? then we can talk more about it. let me know if you need anything in apt-ddtp-tools itself
[17:09] <kelemengabor> ok, good appetite
[18:07] <slangasek> directhex: working with meebey, I have mono-addins fixed up now for the 2.0 transition; this looks like it's going to be the best way to get us down to size on CDs for alpha-2 after all, so I'm going to follow through on it today
[18:22] <Baby> do you know which man page section would correspond to a tcl tk command?
[18:22] <slangasek> Riddell, ScottK: kubuntu ISOs are still very much oversized, is there any hope of bringing that down in time for alpha-2?
[18:30] <ScottK> Dunno.  Let me see what I can come up with.
[18:52] <ScottK> slangasek: There are a couple of changes I'm confortable with making.  Doing then now.
[18:52] <slangasek> ScottK: uploads, or seed changes?
[18:52] <slangasek> (i.e., how soon should I try rebuilding)
[18:52] <ScottK> seed changes.
[18:53] <ScottK> slangasek: You need a new kubuntu-meta upload too, right?
[18:53] <ScottK> So the stuff gets dropped from kubuntu-desktop
[18:53] <slangasek> yeah
[18:54]  * ScottK notes that Riddell has been on vacation for both Alpha's so far this cycle.  Very convenient.
[18:56] <ogra> he would have a hard time testing images where he is now
[18:58] <ScottK> True.
[19:00] <hyperair> jcastro: hey you around?
[19:01]  * jdong wonders if a digital camera would work well as a scanner.
[19:01] <hyperair> jdong: try super macro mode. some cameras work well enough
[19:03] <jdong> WOW
[19:03] <jdong> doesn't look bad at all
[19:03] <jdong> (powershot sd1100, i.e. ixus 82)
[19:04]  * hyperair chuckles
[19:09] <ScottK> slangasek: I'm trying to get my kubuntu-meta update out the door before I have to go get kids at school.  Not sure if I'm going to make it.
[19:09] <ScottK> slangasek: Is there a convenient place I can see how far off we are on CD size?
[19:13] <Gadi> can someone here tell me whether ssh grabs bits from /dev/urandom only upon the initiation of the session or whether it is constantly pulling from /dev/urandom to encrypt each packet?
[19:18] <ScottK> slangasek: Uploaded what I have.
[19:34] <slangasek> ScottK: convenient place> well, the directory index gives you the current size, and the target size is $((700 * 1024 * 1024))
[19:34] <slangasek> uploads> thanks
[19:35] <highvoltage> hey slangasek
[19:37] <slangasek> highvoltage: hello
[19:37] <ogra> whoops, what happened to http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/
[19:37] <ogra> no more ftbfs at all \o/
[19:38] <highvoltage> whohoo!
[19:38] <ogra> heh
[20:07] <ScottK> slangasek: How about go ahead and NBS out kdeplasma-addons-libs4.  The only remaining rdepends are transitional packages on ia64 and hppa.  Getting them really gone will take a while.
[20:16] <ScottK> LaserJock: The package kpercentage has been removed by upstream, so it needs to be removed for Edubuntu seeds/meta (it's on the NBS list currently).
[20:17] <LaserJock> ScottK: right, I've got it removed locally, just having pushed+uploaded, I'll do that nowish
[20:17] <ScottK> LaserJock: Great.  Thanks.
[20:19] <ogra> infinity, oh, did you just do another mass give back ?
[21:04] <bigon> libv4l has an higher version in intrepid than in jaunty should I report that?
[21:06] <doko> NCommander: any results with your kde4bindings experiment?
[21:07] <slangasek> ScottK: kdeplasma-addons NBSed
[21:07] <Keybuk> would I be right in thinking that there's no particular standard to the content of Vcs-Bzr ?
[21:07] <NCommander> doko, I built it on ARM :-)
[21:07] <ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
[21:08] <Keybuk> Vcs-Bzr: lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/udev/ubuntu
[21:09] <Keybuk> would that be the "right thing" to put there?
[21:09] <pochu> Keybuk: I think it needs to be an URI
[21:09] <Keybuk> that is a URI
[21:10] <ScottK> slangasek: We have a proposed solution for Kubuntu oversize.  It'll be an hour or two before I can do it.
[21:10] <slangasek> Keybuk: to date I've spelled it out rather than using lp:, but there's no standard other than it being a URI
[21:10] <slangasek> ScottK: ok, cheers
[21:10] <Keybuk> slangasek: the advantage to the bazaar http URL is that you can stick it in a web browser as well
[21:10] <ScottK> slangasek: In the meantime, if you want to move kmail and kdepim from cd to dvd that'll also let mysql and akonadi fall off the CD.
[21:10] <slangasek> Keybuk: true
[21:11] <Keybuk> the disadvantage is that you have to rewrite it by hand to be able to *commit*
[21:11] <Keybuk> the advantage to the lp: URI is that bzr will use bzr+ssh if you can commit, http if not
[21:11] <ScottK> slangasek: If an hour or two doesn't hurt, just leave it to me.
[21:11] <pochu> Keybuk: I guess if debcheckout can use it properly, it's fine then. But I'm not sure :)
[21:12] <Keybuk> ah, maybe debcheckout handles the http/bzr-ssh transition
[21:12] <slangasek> Keybuk: well, 'debcheckout -a' knows how to rewrite the http urls; and once you've checked out from lp: you still have to rewrite by hand to turn that into a commitable url if, say, you gained commit access after you did the checkout
[21:12] <Keybuk> I'll use http then, since that's what most packages seem to do
[21:13] <slangasek> ScottK: I'll probably leave it to you, since I'm still fighting with ubuntu CD sizes
[21:13] <ScottK> OK
[21:55] <calc> ugh launchpad maintenance at 4pm, lol
[21:55] <calc> asac: do you have MIR approval access?
[21:56] <cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mir/+members
[22:05] <calc> cjwatson: thanks :)
[22:09] <slangasek> doko: do you know why pygtk was "ported" to numpy in Debian?  What was wrong with the way it was built previously?
[22:09] <slangasek> doko: (this adds a number of packages to the CDs that weren't needed, previously)
[22:11] <slangasek> doko: hmm, I guess we were using python-numeric previously, which has much simpler depends
[22:12] <pochu> slangasek: according to http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=478452, because python-num{eric,array} are unmaintained upstream
[22:13] <slangasek> but the one that is maintained upstream has bunches more deps, hmm :/
[22:14] <doko> slangasek: yes, we do want to get rid of the old numeric packages. not sure, if we can modularize numpy
[22:15] <slangasek> doko: ok.  FWIW, the switch from numeric to numpy is a net loss of ~6MB on the CDs
[22:16] <slangasek> (libblas3gf+liblapack3gf+libgfortran3, plus a size delta between numpy and numeric themselves)
[22:16] <directhex> bloaty python :/
[22:17] <doko> pochu: could you ask upstream if they can support a minimal build/split?
[22:18] <doko> slangasek: yes, we had these dependencies in python-numeric-ext, which was not on the CD
[22:18] <bryce> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hotkeys added a 'should be' diagram based on a photo of mdz's whiteboard art.  Let me know if I got anything incorrect there
[22:19] <slangasek> bryce: doh, I had already been working on one of those; but I also discovered that hotkey-setup does some stuff that's outside of what can be done with hal fdi, so it probably remains for the near term
[22:20] <bryce> slangasek: ok I'll stick that back in
[22:21] <bryce> how about atkbd?  timo thought that it was going away
[22:21] <pochu> doko: I don't know them (I never touch it) but Ondrej does
[22:22] <slangasek> bryce: I don't think that's going to cease to exist inside the kernel, is it?  It's just going to be accessed via the event interface
[22:22] <bryce> yeah I dunno the details
[22:22] <bryce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hotkeys updated
[22:23] <directhex> hm. RIP adept.
[22:24] <slangasek> ?
[22:24] <directhex> http://web.mornfall.net/blog/farewell__44___adept.html
[22:30] <NCommander> ugh
[22:30] <NCommander> Of course LP shuts down the moment I need it
[22:35] <calc> heh the information about the new LP release is linked back to... LP so you can't even read about it while it is being done
[22:35] <bryce> calc,  >o<
[22:36] <ScottK> slangasek: I have a fairly draconian whack at the Kubuntu CD prepped for whenever LP wakes up from being broken.
[22:36] <Nafallo> not broken :-)
[22:36] <Nafallo> upgraded
[22:38] <ScottK> Nafallo: If it's not working it's broken.  These long outages for upgrades are, IMO, a sign of poor design.
[22:39] <ScottK> Scheduled broken instead of randomly broken, but still broken.
[22:42] <NCommander> StevenK, did you ever find out if the bug in germinate was fixed w.r.t. to fbreader?
[22:42] <StevenK> NCommander: Nope
[22:42] <StevenK> Was plotting to ask Colin
[22:42] <NCommander> StevenK, ah good
[22:53] <ScottK> slangasek: Any idea how https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/i386/kdeplasma-addons/4:4.1.85-0ubuntu2 got deleted?
[22:54] <slangasek> ScottK: <cough> probably the line where I said "<slangasek> ScottK: kdeplasma-addons NBSed", where neither of us seem to have noticed I got the package name wrong
[22:54] <ScottK> Ahh.  That'd do it.
[22:55] <ScottK> slangasek: Do I upload it again or can you put it back?
[22:55] <slangasek> I think we established at UDS that it's possible to restore NBSed binaries
[22:56]  * slangasek takes out the right package instead, while he waits
[22:56] <ScottK> slangasek: If you'd do that, I'd appreciate it.  Excellent.
[22:57] <ScottK> slangasek: OK.  When I updated kubuntu-meta it took that out of the desktop (since it didn't exist).  I'll wait until you put it back and run it again.
[22:57]  * slangasek nods
[22:57] <ScottK> It'll be a bit because I've got more kids to get to ballet lessons.
[22:59] <bryce> calc: now that lp is back up, where do we find the release notes?
[23:04] <slangasek> ScottK: fwiw, the people I need in order to get the binaries restored aren't responding - a reupload may be simpler
[23:09] <calc> bryce: well not sure if it is the release notes but the news.launchpad.net referred to the release via a link to LP
[23:09] <calc> https://launchpad.net/launchpad-project/+milestone/2.1.12
[23:10] <calc> i guess that sorta tells you what got fixed its just a list of bugs :)
[23:13] <bryce> ahh, good idea
[23:19] <bryce> calc, mm, lots of bug fixes, although nothing that I recall affecting me
[23:21] <bryce> calc, the signed ppa's sounds interesting; shame that the Read Only Launchpad feature doesn't appear to have gotten done
[23:22] <FAJALOU> just a question:  is a rolling release a possiibility for ubuntu?
[23:23] <directhex> FAJALOU, a 6-month release cycle is too long for you?
[23:23] <FAJALOU> directhex:  trying to update to a new system every 6 months is yes.
[23:23] <FAJALOU> i hate doing it b/c i always end up having to take days to reconfigure this and that.
[23:23] <bryce> FAJALOU: how would you define 'rolling release'?
[23:23] <FAJALOU> directhex:  it's more of the opposite; it's too short.
[23:24] <directhex> then use the LTS releases.
[23:24] <FAJALOU> bryce: as in i never have to go through a 'major' upgrade again.
[23:24] <ogra> FAJALOU, if you file bugs abut this and that these can be fixed for next release ;)
[23:24] <FAJALOU> directhex:  i would love that,,, except then there are things in 8.10 that don't show up in 8.04, even if they are both supported.
[23:24] <bryce> FAJALOU: so why not just stick with LTS?
[23:24] <directhex> short answer: no
[23:24] <directhex> long answer: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[23:25] <FAJALOU> bryce:  because i just upgraded to 8.10... stupid decision on my part ;)
[23:25]  * bryce shrugs  worked for me
[23:26] <FAJALOU> bryce:  ya if only it 'just works' for all of us.
[23:27] <calc> the only time i have to bother with reconfiguring things is if i blow away my system entirely including my home dir, which doesn't happen often
[23:27] <calc> if you just do a real upgrade then it shouldn't require too much reconfiguration
[23:27] <bryce> FAJALOU: so it's not that you want a rolling release, you just want perfection
[23:27] <ogra> rolling perfection :)
[23:27] <calc> it shouldn't really require more reconfiguration even if it is broken, it either works or it doesn't generally, heh
[23:28] <FAJALOU> bryce:  well i see rolling release as closer to perfection,,, because you don't have to worry about total reconfigurement ;)
[23:28] <calc> FAJALOU: so just don't reinstall, just upgrade?
[23:28] <ogra> but you will have 100 times more bugs
[23:28] <bryce> FAJALOU: sure you do
[23:28] <bryce> FAJALOU: consider if you got a rolling upgrade to a new xserver, or a new kernel...
[23:28] <FAJALOU> bryce; ok ya i guess that makes sense.  you too ogra
[23:29] <ogra> in a 6 month release cycle less than half of it is used for development, the rest is stabilization and bugfixes
[23:29] <FAJALOU> point.
[23:32]  * calc bbl, going to give a speech at my LOCO
[23:32] <kees> doko: around? looks like the mysql jaunty pain is between -O1(works) and -O2(explodes).  (using gcc-snapshot)
[23:33] <directhex> FAJALOU, rolling releases are fine if you want zero QA, e.g. gentoo. stable releases imply someone's actually making sure it works
[23:33] <FAJALOU> QA?
[23:33] <ogra> quality assurance
[23:34] <doko> kees: you might want to file an upstream bug report with your current findings, and update this one later
[23:34] <slangasek> ScottK: correction, cprov rescued them for me
[23:34] <kees> doko: okay.  can I still do .o bisection even though some are -O1 and some are -O2 ?
[23:35] <doko> kees: sure, please do. we need at least find the miscompiled file
[23:35] <kees> doko: okay, cool.  /me continues...
[23:36] <kees> doko: (thought I suspect it's much more than just 1 file)
[23:37] <doko> kees: hmm, ok, please file the upstream report, maybe you get feedback there as well
[23:46] <LaserJock> slangasek: mind if I upload edubuntu-meta?
[23:46] <slangasek> LaserJock: go ahead
[23:47] <LaserJock> slangasek: thanks


[00:37] <shawnb> So I'm bazaar branching the documentation of natty and precise; I'm going to be asking a few questions but I'll look through these documents first
[00:38] <Unit193> Natty?
[00:39] <knome> shawnb, don't be fooled by the command saying natty. it's called that because the precise docs are essentially natty docs with s/11.04/12.04/
[00:39] <knome> (11.10 actually, so we failed even that)
[00:40] <shawnb> yeah oneiric; I was going through the mailing list information today; so was 12.04's documentation updated at all? or is it just missing a few items?
[00:40] <shawnb> got it knome
[00:41] <knome> the branch we're working with now is copied from 13.10
[00:41] <knome> the -old branch is basically what was the documentation for 11.04
[00:42] <knome> that's purely for reference
[00:42] <shawnb> so we're trying to do 12.04.2's right? we're not working on 13.10s
[00:43] <knome> yes, we're trying to get the "precise" branch to match the situation in 12.04.2
[00:44] <knome> but we've taken the 13.10 docs branch, because that's much better than the old docs
[00:44] <shawnb> makes sense
[01:08] <shawnb> I'm reading through the new documentation (I compiled it to read through it easier); and I was wondering if we could do apt links for software we reference to automatically install things for the user like omgubuntu does
[01:09] <knome> that would be something for the development (13.10) branch, and we'd have to see how we can handle apt:-links automatically
[01:09] <knome> i don't think we're doing that currently by default
[01:09] <shawnb> apt://minitube-ubuntu - that's how omgubuntu does it off their site
[01:10] <knome> shawnb, that opens a "choose an application" window, and there isn't any applications that are handling those links
[01:10] <shawnb> odd I use chrome and it prompts me to run xdg-open
[01:11] <knome> right, that works
[01:11] <Unit193> Do you have apturl-gtk?
[01:11] <knome> firefox didn't propose that, but running 'xdg-open apt://appname' worked
[01:11] <shawnb> mine prompted to open ubuntu software centre - uh.. not sure lemme check
[01:12] <Unit193> Task: ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-usb, edubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-usb, lubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-gnome-desktop
[01:12] <shawnb> no apturl isn't
[01:13] <knome> Unit193, i've a pretty default installation, and i've definitely installed anything that would open apt://-links, so there needs to be some magic
[01:14] <Unit193> apturl-common is installed, but doesn't help me, maybe USC is required?
[01:15] <shawnb> probably USC
[01:15] <shawnb> I'm torrenting a xubuntu 12.04.2 iso I can check and see if it works in that
[01:29] <shawnb> I can confirm in a default install of Xubuntu 12.04.2 it does prompt to launch Ubuntu Software Center when clicking on apt links
[01:30] <Unit193> Well alright.
[01:30] <knome> i mean, gweh
[01:30] <knome> sure, we could do that
[01:31] <knome> but rather than using our limited time on that, let's focus on other things which need reworking
[01:31] <knome> if we end up having time, sure, we can do that as well
[01:31] <knome> i would say we would need to test the apt://-links though.
[01:31] <knome> and that's the reason why i'm not sure about that
[01:33] <knome> shawnb, you missed at least two of my messages, let me repaste:
[01:33] <knome> 04:31  knome: i would say we would need to test the apt://-links though.
[01:33] <knome> 04:31  knome: and that's the reason why i'm not sure about that
[01:33] <knome> (yes, the timestamp is to indicate that it is 4:30am here)
[01:33] <shawnb> dang need to do my updates; my audio crashed my system - oh wow 4:30am
[01:33] <shawnb> yeah like I said in the default install it does open USC; that's a new fresh install of xubuntu 12.04.2
[01:34] <shawnb> *prompt for install via USC
[01:35] <knome> yup, but we still should smoketest that change
[01:35] <shawnb> true
[01:35] <knome> and we might be a bit too tight on time for that for the SRU
[01:35] <knome> depends so much how the rest of the stuff comes along
[01:37] <shawnb> absolutely; it'd be an idea to keep for future releases though
[01:37] <knome> yup, we can work on that for the 13.10 docs
[01:37] <knome> for those, we have a looser schedule
[01:41] <knome> woo!
[01:41] <knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-flavor-xubuntu.html
[01:44] <Unit193> You renamed it.
[01:45] <knome> yeah, i was told it wasn't showing up because of that
[01:45] <knome> the topic blueprints used to be topic-raring-* though, so...
[01:48] <shawnb> knome - how would you like me to go about the documentation changes - put them in a document and mail it to the mailing list or discuss them on here?
[01:49] <knome> shawnb, the optimal way would be merge proposals
[01:49] <knome> shawnb, want me to go through that now? :)
[01:50] <shawnb> yes that would be great
[01:50] <knome> okay
[01:50] <knome> so how familiar were you with bzr?
[01:50] <shawnb> I've used it in the past to download packages like you do with git for compilation
[01:51] <shawnb> I haven't committed any changes or anything like that
[01:51] <knome> ok
[01:51] <knome> so let's assume you have branched the docs and done some changes
[01:52] <knome> then you would want to commit and push it. commit happens locally, pushing... pushes the code online
[01:52] <knome> so first, the commit:
[01:52] <knome> bzr commit
[01:52] <knome> that will open you a text editor where you should write the commit message
[01:53] <shawnb> anything specific e.g. chapter 6 where it says xyz changed line ____ to ____
[01:53] <knome> no, you don't need to be that specific
[01:53] <knome> more in the lines of:
[01:54] <shawnb> quick question, are we using the old documentation interface (natty/oneric) to update or the new one (precise)
[01:54] <knome> "Reviewed chapter 6, updated application names and removed a mention of XYZ, which doesn't exist in 12.04"
[01:54] <knome> the new one
[01:55] <shawnb> ok, thank you
[01:55] <knome> so basically, a commit message is a descriptive but brief comment about the changes you've made
[01:55] <knome> if you write a good one, we can repurpose that in the changelog, which is awesome
[01:55] <shawnb> do you commit per change or do all the changes then commit?
[01:56] <Unit193> You may want to  bzr whoami  first.
[01:56] <knome> use common sense: try to group meaningful subgroups into commits
[01:57] <knome> eg. committing every spelling error fix is bad
[01:57] <knome> otoh, totally rewriting a few sections and doing one commit is bad as well
[01:58] <shawnb> bzr whoami - Shawn Barnes<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:58] <knome> yup, that looks good
[01:58] <knome> (let's see if you also need to do other things...)
[01:58] <shawnb> sections meaning chapters or sections meaning pieces of the chapter
[01:58] <knome> anyway, once you've committed, you want to push
[01:58] <knome> sections meaning chapters :)
[01:59] <knome> as i said, just use common sense
[01:59] <knome> it's humans who review it anyway, so anything that you think is sensible bunch of changes is probably fine
[02:00] <knome> so once you've committed once or twice or how many times you need to, type:
[02:00] <knome> bzr push
[02:00] <knome> ...and forget that.
[02:00] <knome> you will need to specify a different push location, so:
[02:00] <knome> bzr push lp:~yourlpnick/xubuntu-docs/precise-branchname
[02:01] <knome> you can do a test commit/push now so we can go through it
[02:01] <knome> it can be anything, even just something silly.
[02:01] <shawnb> so bzr push lp:~slooksterpsv/xubuntu-docs/precise-????
[02:01] <knome> yup
[02:02] <shawnb> nothing where the ??? is right?
[02:02] <shawnb> or branch
[02:02] <knome> and the complete branchname could be for example precise-chapter6
[02:02] <knome> or something descriptive
[02:03] <knome> it doesn't really matter what it is - you will need to enter something
[02:03] <shawnb> ok so it'll create a branch via my name for that
[02:03] <knome> yes
[02:04] <knome> so go ahead and change something, then bzr commit and bzr push
[02:04] <knome> then we'll go through what that does and how you'd do the actual merge proposal
[02:05] <shawnb> ok I compiled the docs is that going to be a problem when I try the push?
[02:05] <knome> no, the built docs are ignored
[02:05] <knome> (there's a line in .bzrignore for that)
[02:06] <shawnb> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "/home/shawn/Xubuntu Community/Documentation/".
[02:07] <knome> right. you need to be in the xubuntu-docs-precise directory
[02:07] <shawnb> oh ok
[02:07] <knome> or whatever your branch directory is
[02:07] <knome> same with bzr commit and push
[02:08] <shawnb> ok so it's finding revisions and uploading
[02:08] <knome> great!
[02:08] <shawnb> oops I did push not commit
[02:08] <shawnb> commit first then push right?
[02:09] <knome> yep
[02:10] <shawnb> can I delete this branch?
[02:10] <knome> let's do the fake merge request first
[02:11] <knome> as you probably noticed, it appeared in https://code.launchpad.net/~slooksterpsv
[02:11] <knome> on https://code.launchpad.net/~slooksterpsv/xubuntu-docs/precise-testpush, you have a link that says "propose for merging"
[02:11] <knome> click that
[02:11] <shawnb> ok
[02:11] <knome> the target branch for the precise docs is: lp:xubuntu-docs/precise
[02:11] <knome> you'll have to enter that manually
[02:12] <shawnb> ok
[02:12] <knome> (or click choose, but you'll end up writing almost as much)
[02:12] <shawnb> haha yeah
[02:12] <knome> then in the description field you can write a description of *all* the commits you did
[02:12] <knome> i would be fine if that spot mentioned which chapters you touched.
[02:13] <knome> you can leave the reviewer empty
[02:14] <shawnb> okay
[02:14] <knome> i'll catch the xubuntu merge proposals anyway, and that leaves it open for others if they have time
[02:14] <knome> then just click propose merge
[02:14] <shawnb> you want me to click propose merge now?
[02:14] <knome> (this time, add knome as the reviewer, and click propose merge now)
[02:14] <shawnb> *do you - wow I can't type today;
[02:14] <knome> (so we won't email other people)
[02:15] <shawnb> any extra commit messages or that
[02:15] <knome> nope, you can always leave the advanced stuff as they are
[02:16] <shawnb> alrighty; now can I delete the merge and branch lol
[02:16] <knome> great, so now https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/xubuntu-docs/precise tells me there are 2 branches proposed
[02:16] <knome> and your merge proposal is at: https://code.launchpad.net/~slooksterpsv/xubuntu-docs/precise-testpush/+merge/174595
[02:16] <knome> that page will show everybody the diff
[02:17] <knome> (nothing in this case, since you didn't change anything
[02:17] <shawnb> oh ok
[02:17] <knome> and the fantastic thing
[02:17] <knome> after we've reviewed that, it's super easy to merge into the actual documentation
[02:17] <knome> so by doing the merge request, you help us merging things in the docs
[02:18] <knome> rather than sending documents where we need to see what's changed etc
[02:18] <shawnb> awesome; that makes it a lot easier than I thought it would be
[02:18] <knome> with MP's, everything is in the docbook format so we don't need to copypaste anything
[02:18] <knome> (and you can *now* delete the branch :))
[02:18] <shawnb> that's awesome
[02:18] <knome> (i just deleted the MP)
[02:19] <shawnb> awesome I delete the branch
[02:19] <knome> great
[02:19] <knome> so now you know how to do a merge proposal
[02:19] <knome> before you start working on anything,
[02:19] <shawnb> yay I'm excited that's awesome
[02:20] <knome> you might want to email the mailing list telling you're working on X
[02:20] <knome> to cooperate and make sure nobody else is doing the same
[02:20] <shawnb> ok I'll start small for now till I get the hang of things
[02:20] <knome> but other than that, there's no limits
[02:20] <knome> the documentation should have pretty good examples of all docbook markup you might need
[02:20] <knome> so just look at the other files
[02:21] <shawnb> yeah I was looking through a lot of it earlier today and its just like you said xml
[02:21] <knome> if you think you need something that's not done yet - think again - and if you still insist - ask other first :)
[02:21] <knome> *others
[02:21] <knome> i pretty much used docbook to its limits
[02:21] <knome> so it's possible there just isn't a better way to do something
[02:22] <knome> if you end up needing to add chapters
[02:23] <knome> you can just follow the example in the index file and before committing, run 'bzr add .' (which adds all new files into your branch)
[02:23] <knome> ...or you can ask me to lay the groundwork for you
[02:31] <knome> does that all make sense to you or would you like to ask something?
[04:02] <knome> huhu, Unit193 reconnecting
[04:03] <Unit193> Figured I'd do so since things are slow, and it was bugging me. :P  I've been checking the blueprints, and only thing I can see that I could technically do is review of docs (again.) :/
[04:04] <knome> is there something else you could do if somebody helped you with it?
[04:04] <knome> also, there are testcases, which are not exactly documentation...
[04:05] <knome> and what about helping out with the flyer content? (i know, that's boring writing too...)
[04:06] <knome> and i don't think it's mentioned on the blueprints
[04:07] <knome> tbh, we don't have too many things in there
[04:07] <knome> if you filed those bugs i've said "file and let's get them sorted", please link them to -development blueprint
[04:20] <Unit193> I had thought they were wiki'd, but can't find it.  Some are already looked at, and jockey was part of it.  I'm supposed to be tracking libdvdcss-{pgk,installer}, and nothing new there for a while now.
[04:20] <knome> mhm
[04:20] <Unit193> (Also did some grepping.)
[04:20] <knome> what about the popup menu thingy?
[04:20] <Unit193> Oh, wasn't thinking that one, was more a RFC. :P
[04:23] <knome> start thinking
[04:23] <Unit193> As in, if at least one other person thinks it's a good idea I could try a merge proposal.
[04:23] <knome> you've done well with speaking up (and in correct channels too), now time to start using more of the brain ;)
[04:24] <Unit193> Hah, well just need to make sure it's not a hair brain idea.  Checking about pulling an older jockey.desktop file too.
[04:25] <knome> ah, yes, that one too
[04:30] <Unit193> Natty didn't do translations, so it'd seem? http://paste.openstack.org/show/Atyf2PvRuhHTd1wSRNc8/
[04:30] <knome> hmm.
[04:31] <knome> apparently not
[04:31] <Unit193> http://pastebin.com/hqRBUCK7 from updated natty.
[04:32] <Unit193> xubuntu-icon-theme still carries the icon, BTW.
[04:32] <knome> right
[04:33] <Unit193> And on another note: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bugs?field.tag=entering-saucy we need to prep anything for that?
[04:33] <knome> umpf
[04:33] <knome> no idea
[06:08] <shawnb> thank you knome - I'll start working on this asap; I had a family thing come up due to having a viewing and funeral in the next 2 days so that's why I disappeared
[06:11] <knome> shawnb, no problem
[06:11] <knome> all the best with those
[06:12] <pleia2> knome: saturday is my day off :) (I was out all day, will be back in my AM)
[06:12] <knome> pleia2, no problemo
[06:12] <knome> pleia2, didn't remember you had such things, you used to work all days like a mad one :P
[06:13] <knome> pleia2, good night!
[06:13]  * pleia2 has been trying to take 1 per week ;)
[06:14] <pleia2> gian1: btw, the only invite I have on deviantart is from 2 days ago and it has expired
[06:15] <knome> tabfail
[06:15] <pleia2> haha, oops
[06:15] <knome> and yeah, i fully support people taking days off and other breaks
[06:15] <pleia2> I am too tired
[06:15] <pleia2> gridcube isn't here
[06:15] <knome> YOU?
[06:15] <pleia2> gian1: sorry :)
[06:15] <knome> it's 9am+
[06:15] <knome> and i haven't slept for a minute
[06:15] <pleia2> crazy person
[06:16] <knome> i just had breakfast and now there's some coffee
[06:16] <pleia2> hehe
[06:16] <knome> i usually do a few allnighters per year
[06:16] <knome> planned or unplanned..
[06:17] <pleia2> my brain turns to mush when I don't sleep
[06:17] <knome> i've been filling crosswords and stuff like that :P
[06:17] <pleia2> :)
[06:17] <knome> so apparently mine behaves the other way
[06:17] <pleia2> alright, sleepies time for me
[06:17] <pleia2> good luck ;)
[06:17] <knome> nighty night!
[06:59] <Noskcaj> Can someone have a look at the new xfce4-indicator-plugin's patches? i think the patch is unnecessary
[07:00] <knome> which patch
[07:08] <Noskcaj> debian/patches/migrate-xfcerc-xfconf.patch: Handle the blacklist migration to Xfconf.
[07:08] <Noskcaj> either unnecessary or broken
[07:11] <knome> morning elfy
[07:12] <elfy> hi knome
[07:13] <elfy> no good tellin Unit193 to talk to forestpiskie - he has Unit193 on /ignore or did I mean /what?
[07:14] <knome> heh
[07:16] <elfy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-23296285
[07:16] <elfy> about 40 seconds in - that'd be noisy ...
[07:18] <knome> huhu
[07:20] <elfy> d'oh thought this was the offtopic channel ...
[07:23] <Noskcaj> knome, the conflict (and the area the patch affects) is at http://paste.ubuntu.com/5873350/ and t
[07:32] <Noskcaj> elfy, i can't help but feel the first two tests in XFCEDisplay are slightly redundant
[07:33] <elfy> open and close ones? I feel the same - but we need to test it works I guess
[07:33] <elfy> we're supposed to be testing it - not testing what we think we should be testing
[07:34] <elfy> I feel that the parole one shouldn't rely on someone having an active internet connection
[07:35] <Noskcaj> Not the open/close per-se, more the fact that after that, you explicitly tests opening it
[07:35] <Noskcaj> And near the very bottom, you seem to have repeated part
[07:36] <elfy> just comment on it - I'm not looking at it or pretty much anything at all today :)
[07:36] <Noskcaj> I agree that parole should need a connection, but we have no sample media
[07:36] <Noskcaj> I'll fix it and merge, it's mostly just removing a few redundant/repeated parts
[07:37] <elfy> don't do that - just comment - I'll fix it tomorrow
[07:37] <elfy> Noskcaj: don't merge it either - I need to practise that - comment and I'll fix when it's approved I'll do the merge
[07:38] <Noskcaj> oh, you have merge rights now?
[07:38] <elfy> have had for ages - just never done it - I'm wanting to keep on top of our tests so I know where we are
[07:43] <Noskcaj> I've reviewed it, back to pretending i understand package merging
[07:44] <elfy> k
[07:44] <elfy> I'll sort it out tomorrow
[17:15] <pleia2> hm, still no gridcube
[17:23] <elfy> interwebs aren't fun sometimes :(
[19:55] <Unit193> knome: No idea if I did the translations thing right, and guessing not: https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/+junk/xubuntu-default-settings
[19:56] <Unit193> (http://paste.openstack.org/show/1JO21NRVd2QISpbuWSrW/)
[19:57] <Unit193> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/revision/408 using that as a base.
[23:18] <Noskcaj> Is anyone willing to help merge the latest xfce4-indicator-plugin?


[12:06] <kwwii> hehe, actually I only use adobe on mac
[12:06] <kwwii> and to be honest, I used less than legal software before I made money with it
[12:06] <kwwii> but once I made money with it, I knew I should pay for it
[12:07] <kwwii> I mean, I am getting something out of it
[12:07] <kwwii> money
[12:07] <kwwii> and I do not need to update to the latest version like most people think
[12:07] <kwwii> to be honest, the printing world is 2-3 versions behind everyone else
[12:08] <kwwii> anyway, I await the day that I use inkscape and never use AI, someday soon it will happen
[12:08] <kwwii> I use inkscape more and more
[12:09] <mhb> that's great
[12:10] <kwwii> the newest inkscape is pretty cool though
[12:10] <kwwii> the biggest thing that I hate is not being able to offset a path
[12:10] <kwwii> I mean, you can do it, but the results suck
[12:14] <mhb> Illustrator can spit out valid SVGs?
[12:15] <mhb> that can be viewed in some SVG viewer without errors?
[12:18] <kwwii> yepp, illustrator can spit out valid svgs
[12:19] <kwwii> anything that AI can make as SVG, batik can display
[12:19] <kwwii> since years
[12:19] <kwwii> I mean, they do expand the SVG set with their stuff
[12:19] <kwwii> but it does work
[12:20] <kwwii> and even if it is bullshit, the real features that AI has above any other editor are still there
[12:22] <mhb> kwwii: if they will hire you as a "community consultant", please tell them about the Linux version :o)
[12:23] <kwwii> who...Adobe? ...hire me? hehehe, I wish
[12:24] <kwwii> :p
[12:24] <mhb> :o)
[12:28] <kwwii> time for sleep
[12:28] <kwwii> see you all tomorrow
[12:28] <mhb> ok
[12:28] <mhb> goodnight
[12:28] <kwwii> night
[12:32] <Viper550> Are there any source SVGs of the new mockups?
[12:33] <kwwii> Viper550: which ones? the kubuntu ones?
[12:33] <kwwii> they are all SVGs
[12:33] <Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/SetSample00
[12:34] <kwwii> hehe, no idea
[12:34] <Viper550> And I meant, the actual SVG images, not the contact sheets
[12:34] <kwwii> guess not
[12:34] <Viper550> Wondering why?
[12:34] <kwwii> no idea
[12:34] <Viper550> I'm going to try and establish a similar look for some of Tropic's artwork, but with a twist
[12:34] <kwwii> ask the author
[12:35] <kwwii> I was actually already going to sleep...see you tomorrow
[12:35] <kwwii> late here
[12:35] <Viper550> Okay, I live in EST if you wonder
[12:36] <kwwii> hehe, CET here
[12:37] <Viper550> night
[12:37] <kwwii> in a week or so I will be in America though
[12:37] <kwwii> going home on vacation
[12:38] <kwwii> ok, night all
[12:43] <Viper550> I'm going to start a page for actual Kubuntu proposals, not just Ideas like we have now
[12:45] <mhb> Viper550: is there a reason why?
[12:45] <mhb> Viper550: ideas kinda equals proposals
[12:45] <mhb> +-
[12:45] <Viper550> It wasn't actually under /EdgyProposals
[12:52] <Viper550> It was actually a brainstorm page of sorts...
[12:53] <Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/KubuntuProposals
[12:54] <mhb> well, I think you should leave that to Ken
[03:47] <Viper550> Hello!
[07:00] <Gareth^> goodbye!
[05:26] <Viper550> Hello everyone!
[05:36] <Viper550> Is anyone here?
[05:47] <troy_s> yes
[05:47] <troy_s> sort of
[05:49] <Viper550> I was looking at that Peace theme just right now
[05:50] <Viper550> It's a bit different...
[05:52] <troy_s> ?
[05:53] <Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Peace
[09:30] <fschoep> troy_s: ping


[03:28] <blair> IIRC, we're a week away from Debian Import Freeze and maven3 with 3.0.4 just got into Debian yesterday, should i wait to open a sync request for 12.04?
[03:40] <blair> within the last two days, the login screen for precise no longer has the gear where one can pick a different window manager
[03:41] <trism> blair: it came back for me by selecting another user and then back to mine
[03:43] <blair> trism, thanks, that works, but it doesn't fix it permanently, a reboot will have the missing gear again
[03:50] <micahg> blair: we passed Debian Import Freeze already
[03:51] <trism> blair: yeah, may be worth a bug report, I don't see one and a quick look a the code and NEWS makes it seem unintentional
[03:52] <Essobi> blair: yea.. down arrow, and back up.
[03:52] <blair> trism, this would be reported against lightdm?
[03:53] <trism> blair: unity-greeter
[03:53] <blair> ok, thanks
[03:55] <blair> micahg, thanks, i'll make a sync request then
[04:03] <blair> opened https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/920283
[04:03] <snadge> haha seen that one
[04:03] <snadge> i thought it was a "feature"
[04:04] <blair> snadge, yeah, i was wondering if this was the way they would get everybody to use unity ;)
[04:04] <snadge> well if you select another user they suddenly appear
[04:04] <jokerdino> blair: should lightdm be tagged in the bug as well?
[04:05] <jokerdino> BTW, i confirmed the bug for you.
[04:05] <blair> jokerdino, thanks for confirming, i don't know, see above what trism said
[04:05] <snadge> now someone just needs to fix the switching workspace focus/right click bug ;)
[04:06] <snadge> smspillaz is aware of it thought.. thats good enough for me
[04:06] <jokerdino> snadge: what bug is that?
[04:07] <snadge> if you switch workspace to one which has firefox on it
[04:07] <snadge> and type in the location bar.. sometimes the autocomplete function doesnt work
[04:08] <snadge> also related to that.. when you right click.. the menu disappears as soon as you move the mouse over it
[04:08] <jokerdino> hmm
[04:08] <snadge> unless you click in the title bar to manually focus the app
[04:08] <jokerdino> the sloppy mouse focus not working properly kinda bug?
[04:08] <snadge> its apparently related to the workspace switching code.. some kind of race condition
[04:08] <snadge> because it doesn't always do it.. and its not easily reproduceable
[04:09] <jokerdino> i am not sure. i will see if i can notice it.
[04:09] <snadge> ive been noticing it for about 3 months now
[04:09] <snadge> on several different systems.. its pretty irritating
[04:09] <jokerdino> is it only limited to firefox or chrome included?
[04:10] <snadge> im not sure actually.. i dont use chrome
[04:10] <snadge> im assuming the problem would affect chrome too
[04:12] <snadge> its one of those problems that goes away when you try to figure it out
[04:12] <snadge> then when you give up.. it happens repeatedly
[05:45] <plustax> hello there. Can anyone tell me some good things you've noticed about 12.04 as opposed to 11.10 Im having trouble deciding whether I want to upgrade.
[09:47] <psypher246> hello all. Does anyone know under which package I should log multimonitor setup bugs?
[10:08] <Laibsch> My main system is still running lucid but I've been trying for a while to get a separate install of precise on a separate partition (only sharing boot).  That should be possible to dual-boot, right?
[10:09] <hifi> they would fight for kernels, I wouldn't recommend shared /boot
[10:09] <Laibsch> Problem is my HD is an encrypted LVM and it seems as if I can't get grub to cooperate.  Any grub experts around?
[10:09] <hifi> and grub's config
[10:09] <Laibsch> hifi: I don't see the problem.  I frequently install kernels from other releases for testing.
[10:10] <hifi> the config might be the biggest problem
[10:10] <Laibsch> OK, grub is a separate issue.  What do you suggest, then?  The current boot partition is the only one unencrypted.
[10:10] <hifi> they would share the same config file
[10:10] <hifi> well, if you want to keep it encrypted then just partition another /boot for the other installation?
[10:11] <hifi> and chainload the other grub or something
[10:11] <Laibsch> I'd be happy for now if I could get things to boot at all.  Even manually from the grub command line.  But I don't know grub enough for that.
[10:11] <hifi> I'm not the best one to tell you this though
[10:11] <hifi> I haven't used two separate installations together
[10:11] <hifi> on the same HD
[10:12] <Laibsch> alright, I hope I still have unpartitioned space in the unencrypted portion (ecryptfs is a bitch and undoing the encryption seems to be near impossible :-( )
[10:12] <hifi> chainloading a secodary grub from the /boot partition should be possible but I don't know if it's sane at all
[10:12] <Laibsch> do you have an example how to chainload a second grub?
[10:13] <hifi> I've only used it to boot windows
[10:14] <psypher246> hello all. Does anyone know under which package I should log multimonitor setup bugs?
[10:15] <Laibsch> psypher246: most likely the driver of your video card
[10:15] <Laibsch> but depends on what type of multi-monitor problem.  unfortunately, there's still LOTs of them. :-/
[10:15] <psypher246> so nothing to do with all the new work being done to improve mutimoniotor setups?
[10:15] <Laibsch> hifi: can you share how you did that?
[10:16] <hifi> Laibsch: the default config has that option commented out
[10:16] <hifi> should at least
[10:16] <Laibsch> I'll have a look
[10:29] <psypher246> Laibsch: so even though I am running the nouveau driver but the multi display setup is being done by ubuntu "Displays" I must log the bug under the driver?
[10:30] <Laibsch> Must may be the wrong word
[10:30] <Laibsch> but you want to report against the package which most likely really has the bug, right?
[10:31] <Laibsch> you still haven't said what problem you are seeing, so it's impossible to help
[10:31] <psypher246> correct, i just womndered since all this new work is being done on this friont that there is a specific package for it
[10:31] <psypher246> ok the issue is that once I have setup duial monitors, randomly, or when watching fullscreen youtube the monitor setup will break and switch back to mirror
[10:32] <psypher246> setting the dual monitor up again break the launchbar, making it a lot shorter than that the resolution can handle
[10:36] <Laibsch> how long after setup? about 30 seconds?
[10:37] <psypher246> long can be hours or minutes
[10:37] <psypher246> totally random, sometimes it doesn't happen all day
[10:37] <psypher246> only time I can replicate is during fullscreen youtube, but it just happened to me when clicking on the messaging menu
[10:37] <psypher246> doesn't ALWAYS happen during youtube either
[11:05] <edgy> Hi, fdisk -cu is wrong in ubuntu but -c -u works, is this a new bug?
[13:29] <BluesKaj> hi all
[13:44] <coz_> hey guys.. ok installed precise,, nvidia settings work but secondary monitor does not turn on,, and reopening nvidia settings, it no longers lists the secondary monitor, and suggestions?
[13:44] <coz_> any suggestions I meant
[13:47] <meerkats> what does "iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -d 0/0 -s 0/0 --dport 9080 -j ACCEPT" do?
[13:59] <ikonia> meerkats: try #netfilter or #iptables for iptables discussion
[14:00] <meerkats> invite only?
[14:01] <pangolin> ## maybe
[19:33] <FernandoMiguel> evening
[19:50] <Tixos> someone broke something
[19:50] <Tixos> unity no longer is possible to keep 'fixed' or 'active'
[19:51] <Tixos> tried myunity + CCSM, neither work anymore since updates in the past 2-3days
[19:53] <FernandoMiguel> what do you mean ?
[19:58] <Tixos> unity bar by default hides itself
[19:58] <Tixos> this is useless
[19:59] <Tixos> unless you want to add hours over a month to window switching with a mouse :)
[20:01] <Daekdroom> Tixos, use the keyboard shortcuts for window switching and you'll gain some seconds
[20:02] <Tixos> id rather just use the bar
[20:02] <Tixos> it worked fine since release
[20:02] <Tixos> broke today when i updated some packages
[20:08] <Tixos> why did i update..... everything seems slower, nobody here knows what was updated?
[23:28] <jtaylor> yey, new X is landing, hopefully break free, see mailing list