[05:37]  * s-lion sets a fresh brewed can of coffee in the middle of the room
[17:44] <pleia2> email sent off to summary writers
[17:58] <Unit193> Geez, need to have UWN/current symlink to the current, and UWN/WIP to dev one. :P
[18:07] <pleia2> summaries are always written in the google doc anyway, the WIP one isn't populated until sunday
[18:27] <silverlion> good evening every 1
[19:20] <JoseeAntonioR> akgraner: ping ping, novacut has already released a Mark interview in their channel, I think we should move it to ubuntudevelopers
[19:22] <silverlion> JoseeAntonioR:
[19:23] <JoseeAntonioR> silverlion: hi!
[19:23] <silverlion> JoseeAntonioR: sup my friend? how was uds?
[19:24] <JoseeAntonioR> silverlion: UDS is a great experience, it's much much different when you're there
[19:24] <JoseeAntonioR> I absolutely loved it
[19:25] <silverlion> JoseeAntonioR: i am no developer ^^
[19:25] <silverlion> i am editor ^^
[19:26] <JoseeAntonioR> silverlion: me neither :)
[19:31] <silverlion> JoseeAntonioR: i am totally busy with my work over at #fullcirclemagazine ;)
[19:31] <JoseeAntonioR> silverlion: and I am with school, I have lots of exams this week
[19:32] <silverlion> JoseeAntonioR: crossing fingers for you :D
[19:34] <JoseeAntonioR> silverlion: thanks!


[10:45] <slickymasterWork> balloons, this may be of interest to you -> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2246771
[13:37] <elfy> balloons: got bored - did usb-creator-gtk testcase - needs checking - especially the persistence bit as I didn't actually do it :D
[13:52] <balloons> elfy, nice
[13:53] <balloons> slickymaster, will read, thanks!
[13:57] <knome> elfy, huhu, cutting corners? ;)
[14:14] <slickymasterWork> np balloons
[17:15] <knome> balloons, do you have http://temp.knome.fi/qa/logo/ safe?
[17:16]  * balloons resaves all
[17:16] <balloons> knome, yep :-)
[17:16] <knome> good
[17:16] <knome> i'll still have them *safe*, but i'll drop them from the web
[17:17] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/qa/tracker-visual-poc/
[17:17] <knome> want that done next for the tracker?
[17:18] <knome> and, did you get to look at the dnd not working?
[17:59] <balloons> knome, I kind of remember his
[17:59] <balloons> no I didn't debug why dnd isn't working.. makes me sad, but documenting the tracker stuff is higher on the list atm


[00:58] <fullermd> bairui: So how did your designing-layouts/workflows stuff turn out?
[00:59] <bairui> so far, so good... methinks. I have a workflow doc and I'm creating some images to go along with it now.
[01:02] <fullermd> Cool.
[01:03] <fullermd> 's long as it doesn't end up in a Powerpoint or something, anyway...
[01:03] <bairui> I am just putting it in pastebin if you'd like to cast your critical eye over it, fullermd?
[01:05] <fullermd> Well, it'd be a pretty cursory glance.  I'm evaluating and collating incomplete and outdated information for a pointless meeting on Monday about a doomed project.
[01:08] <bairui> fullermd: http://pastebin.com/88sNi5Wv
[01:08] <bairui> and thanks for even glancing at it :)
[01:09] <bairui> hate meetings... especially pointless ones, and so many are. :-(
[01:13] <fullermd> I would suggest using a checkout rather than a branch for trunk.  Then you can just merge/commit, and it also makes it harder to accidentally go the other way and swap around the mainline accidentally.
[01:13] <fullermd> And you're already using checkouts for the feature branches anyway, so might as well be consistent.
[01:13]  * bairui is taking notes
[01:13] <bairui> ok. good to know.
[01:14] <fullermd> I'm not sure why you have the "merge --pull" stuff in youe trunk branch notes here either.
[01:14] <fullermd> I suspect you really meant just 'bzr pull'.
[01:14] <bairui> i think we were originally doing a   bzr pull   and saw someone use   merge --pull   and thought, well that saves a command if we had to merge... wrong?
[01:15] <fullermd> Well, for one thing, after a merge you'd have to commit the merge.
[01:15] <bairui> ah. ok.
[01:15] <fullermd> But also, if pull failed on trunk, I'd think that's a red flag to stop and go "whoah, wait, wtf".  Not something to gloss over.
[01:15] <bairui> so - we'll go back to    bzr pull   and be explicit about the merge if that was necessary
[01:15] <bairui> agreed
[01:15] <fullermd> That would mean that somehow your local 'trunk' ended up with something the upstream trunk doesn't have.  That shouldn't happen.
[01:16] <bairui> like a local commit
[01:16] <fullermd> And if it did and you merge, you get into the mainline-swapping situation.
[01:16] <bairui> ok. to be avoided. noted :)
[01:17] <fullermd> Is it necessary to have the feature branches on the server?  I mean, sure, it's nice for longer lived stuff, but it may be overkill for simpler.
[01:18] <bairui> i was originally not putting them there - just keeping them on our local dev machines, but someone raised the concern that these are not on the server...
[01:19] <fullermd> Well, if a feature branch is taking weeks, or being worked on by multiple people, you definitely want it central there.  If it's lasting hours or a day or two, for just one person, though...
[01:19] <bairui> i guess after they get merged into trunk then they're 'available'... I think there was concern over being able to easily go back to that piece of work if rework was necessary
[01:19] <fullermd> Maybe you want to avoid people thinking case-by-case like that, which is valid.
[01:19] <fullermd> Oh, yes.  Once it's merged into trunk, it can be recreated trivially.
[01:19] <bairui> ok...
[01:20] <fullermd> If you do "bzr branch -r123.4.5 trunk newbranch" (assuming that rev is the head of the branch you had, that got merged in), you've [almost] recreated it exactly as it was before you merged.
[01:20] <fullermd> The only stuff you miss is transient branch config (the nick, saved parent/push/etc branches, and so on).
[01:21] <bairui> nick?
[01:21] <bairui> the local branch name?
[01:21] <fullermd> So any time a branch is "completed" and merged, if you don't expect to pick it back up as-is, it can be rm'd away.
[01:21] <fullermd> Branches have nicknames, which are recorded in the revs created in them.  The default is just the dir name, but you can set it manually.
[01:21] <bairui> right - and it was that rm'ing that freaked a team member (and I didn't know bzr well enough to assuage their fears)
[01:21] <fullermd> It shows up in `log`, for instance.  Just cosmetic, but helps keep straight what you think you were doing.
[01:22] <bairui> ah - we've just been using dir name as branch name
[01:23] <bairui> ok - so for small dev work and bug fixes, you'd say: branch locally, hack, commit, merge, rm   ?
[01:23] <bairui> for collab stuff, branch on server
[01:23] <bairui> or longer living / huge stuff
[01:23] <fullermd> I usually always branch locally, then also push the branch up to the server if it winds up being long-lived or needing collab.
[01:24] <bairui> ok. i saw that flow sometime yesterday - was nice to know one could always push a local branch at a later date
[01:24] <fullermd> `bzr branch bzr+ssh://some/thing bzr+ssh://some/thing/else` is kinda wacky, since you copy all the data across the network twice.
[01:24] <fullermd> My work tends to go something like
[01:24] <bairui> good to know
[01:24] <fullermd> cd ~/work/projfoo; bzr co bzr+ssh://central/trunk   # pretty much always a central trunk, just make local checkout.
[01:25] <bairui> ok
[01:25] <fullermd> For utterly trivial stuff, I often just do and commit right on trunk.  If it's 5 minutes of work, and just one commit, why bother with the overhead of branches, I say.
[01:25] <bairui> ok
[01:25] <fullermd> If it's going to be more than one rev, especially if half-broken in the middle, or take longer, I make a local branch
[01:25] <fullermd> cd ~/work/projfoo ; bzr branch trunk featfoo
[01:26] <fullermd> Then I can work in featfoo.  If I decide to put it central for some reason, I can just `bzr push bzr+ssh://central/featfoo` then.
[01:26] <bairui> right. cool.
[01:26] <fullermd> And either remember to 'push' my changes Every So Often(tm), or convert the branch into a checkout at that point.
[01:26] <bairui> so that each commit effectively pushes, right?
[01:26] <fullermd> (see `bzr reconfigure`; you can turn a checkout into a branch, a branch into a checkout, a standalone [non-repo-using] branch into one using a shared repo, a shared repo branch into a standalone, blah blah blah)
[01:27] <bairui> nice. awesome
[01:27] <bairui> scary :)
[01:27] <fullermd> Correct in essence [auto-pushes].  That gets into philosophical issues.
[01:28] <bairui> heh, let's keep this pragmatic for now - my bzr-fu is not ready for philosophy :)
[01:28] <fullermd> Now, you may want to just fiat declare "all branches are always on the server", for either political reasons or to avoid asking people to make judgements.  That's down to your situation.
[01:29] <fullermd> So anyway, over time, I can always `cd ~/work/projfoo/trunk ; bzr up` to have my trunk copy up to date.  Merge changes from it into featfoo if/as necessary.
[01:29] <fullermd> And when featfoo is done, I can just rm -rf it.
[01:30] <fullermd> (for various external reasons, I often don't exactly, but that's another matter)
[01:31] <bairui> mmm... I smell pancakes cooking... *drool*
[01:31] <fullermd> Oh, I notice you mention a 'settings.php'.  Here's a trick I use a lot in webdev: we want separate configs in testing vs live (actually run credit cards vs. fake, different databases, all sorts of things)
[01:31] <bairui> ok, fullermd... that's cool. I'm logging this, so I will show it to the other team members.
[01:31] <bairui> yep
[01:32] <fullermd> So what I do is I have a 'live.conf.php' and 'dev.conf.php' versioned.  The includes look for "conf.php", which I make an [unversioned and ignored] symlink to whichever one is appropriate.
[01:32] <bairui> drupal, as I'm sure you've guessed
[01:32] <fullermd> Or in some special cases, a hand-crafted one.  That way we don't worry about versioning local changes, but we still have standard configs versioned and ready.
[01:32] <bairui> I keep a config.yml file and generate the appropriate settings.php from the current env
[01:32] <fullermd> (actualy deployment happens via Makefile, which creates the proper symlinks in the destination)
[01:33] <bairui> config.yml gets versioned and the settings.php is always re-created
[01:33] <bairui> I don't have the luxury of running a Makefile on some of my deployment hosts - cheap :)
[01:34] <fullermd> If I don't admin the system, it's not a deployment host; it's something I complain to the client about and bill triple time for any interaction with  :p
[01:34] <bairui> heh... that will be a glorious future, but for now, we suck it up. :-/
[01:35] <fullermd> As far as the testing/XPT/later stuff, it sounds like something particular to your process, so I don't have much of an opinion.
[01:35] <bairui> i will compare your settings.php approach with our current way and reconsider our choice.
[01:35] <bairui> fair
[01:35] <fullermd> Is //todd/ on the LAN?
[01:35] <bairui> the XPT is now a single branch that we merge releases into and tag if happy
[01:35] <bairui> yep
[01:36] <fullermd> 'k.  I'd avoid using lightweight checkouts across anything slower than a very fast LAN.  They work great on local disk; on an uncongested LAN it's not too bad.  But I wouldn't try it farther than that.
[01:36] <bairui> wow. really? why?
[01:37] <fullermd> They're really made for use on local disk, so they move a lot of data and a lot of round trips.
[01:37] <bairui> ah... didn't know that. ok - so, what? branch or checkout as necessary?
[01:37] <bairui> instead
[01:37] <fullermd> With a gigabit of bandwidth and sub-millisecond latency, that's ignorable.  With a couple megabit and dozens or hundreds of ms, not so much   :)
[01:37] <fullermd> Using a [regular, 'heavy'] checkout in their place would be fine.
[01:37] <bairui> oh - so it's merely a speed issue? not a lost-data one?
[01:37] <bairui> ok
[01:38] <fullermd> Oh, yes.  No data safety; just speed.  But a lot of speed.
[01:38] <bairui> cool - good to know. if we notice lag, heavy she is.
[01:38] <fullermd> A heavy checkout is basically the same as a light one, except it keeps a local cache of the whole history (like a branch).
[01:38] <bairui> ironic - i thought light would move less - no history, after all... what am I missing?
[01:39] <fullermd> If you can spare the space, it can be worth doing heavy just because it gives you an extra 'free' backup on another box, too.
[01:39] <bairui> that is a good point
[01:39] <bairui> space is easy to spare
[01:39] <fullermd> Well, on the one hand, because it has no history, it has to go to the server to even find out what the pristine state of the _current_ files are.
[01:39] <bairui> ah... which reminds me... I haven't read about bzr backup yet... it's on the todo list
[01:39] <bairui> that makes sense (light)
[01:40] <fullermd> So doing e.g. 'bzr diff' has to go grab the originals of all the changed files from the server, every time.
[01:40] <bairui> yuck
[01:40] <bairui> ok - sold.
[01:40] <fullermd> And it does the internal lookups in very network-unoptimized ways.
[01:40] <fullermd> There are cases where somebody has done light checkouts of couple-meg trees, and foudn that an 'update' moves hundreds of megs across the network.
[01:41] <fullermd> (due to egregious bugs, rather than the suboptimal-for-usecase design, but still)
[01:41] <bairui> *shudder*
[01:41] <bairui> ok - we'll go heavy - space is not a concern.
[01:42] <bairui> so, any other nasties in our proposed workflow, mate?
[01:42] <fullermd> Well, all your uses of "--remember bzr+ssh://...." are a bit of an eyesore.
[01:42] <fullermd> If you're --remember'ing, why specify each time?  ;)
[01:43] <bairui> ok... i think the designer had assumed that these were previously non-existing dirs - recreated as necessary.
[01:43] <bairui> we'll look at that.
[01:44] <bairui> thank you very much, fullermd, for your time and advice on all that. <3
[01:45] <fullermd> I'm somewhat curious about the "rm -rf web ; bzr co [...]" bit at the end of the XPT migration thing.
[01:45]  * bairui smells pancakes, honey and maple syrup...
[01:45] <fullermd> Surely you don't want to do that every time?  Maybe that's just meant to be a "first time" instruction block...
[01:46] <bairui> /var/www/xpt/web held the last (view into) a site in xpt
[01:46] <fullermd> Yah, but wouldn't it already be the existing branch/checkout from last time you do it?  So why rm ; re-checkout instead of just 'update'?
[01:46] <bairui> we would do that *if* we didn't care for the previous view
[01:46] <bairui> right - so it it's the same view (site), we'd update
[01:47] <bairui> if it's a different website then we'd rm
[01:47] <fullermd> Ah.  So it's a single location potentially used by different things.
[01:47] <bairui> we were just being lazy - keeping a single xpt site
[01:47] <bairui> yep
[01:47] <fullermd> Speaking of some of my unfavorite things about webdev...
[01:47] <bairui> heh
[01:48] <fullermd> (this is why I often don't rm my feature branches when I'm done with them; instead I rename them to a new feature branch, because webdev means there's always extra setup to do when creating a new workspace   :|  )
[01:48] <bairui> ah, yes... we generate code for that reason
[01:48] <fullermd> Can people just use userdirs on todd?
[01:48] <bairui> userdirs? like  /home/user/public_html  ?
[01:48]  * fullermd nods.
[01:49] <bairui> um... i haven't set that up... why? what would that give me?
[01:49] <bairui> gack! pancake call! :-o
[01:49] <bairui> can we pick this up again in a bit, fullermd? :-D
[01:49] <fullermd> Well, maybe it's usable instead of xpt; that way you don't worry about stomping on each other so much.
[01:49] <fullermd> Or maybe it fit your flow; I'm just spitballing.
[01:49] <bairui> we can create multiple xpt sites (with our generator scripts) very easily - we were just documenting the lazy case :)
[01:50] <fullermd> Ah.  Laziness is next to godliness.
[01:50] <fullermd> But both are far removed from pancakes, so I dunno why you're wasting time talking about them when the latter are in offing   :p
[01:50] <bairui> agreed! thanks, mate. later! :-#
[01:53] <fullermd> Oh, [when you get back] have you worked out in-repo perms on todd so things keep working for everyone?
[03:02] <bairui> back... delicious pancakes.  And oh, my gosh, yes... permissions. A colleague has threatened nasty things with pliers if I don't sort out the permissions thing pretty soon. What's the good oil there, fullermd?
[03:03] <fullermd> I dunno.  Break-Free maybe?  That should make the pliers run smoothly.
[03:03] <bairui> keeping my bits away from pliers is the goal here, fullermd...
[03:04]  * bairui suspects fullermd's still looking for that stick   ;)
[03:07] <fullermd> Oh, I'm supposed to be helping YOU in this instance, then?
[03:07] <fullermd> That's way less entertaining.  Hold oh, I'll go cancel the popcorn then...
[03:08]  * bairui needs to invest more in team management skills...
[03:08] <fullermd> Team management is tough sometimes.  Depending on the floor plan, it can be difficult to get enough voltage to everyone's chair.
[03:08] <bairui> lol
[03:08] <fullermd> What OS it the server running?
[03:09] <bairui> linux
[03:09] <fullermd> Wow, people still use that thing?  Amazing...
[03:09] <bairui> oi!
[03:10] <fullermd> OK, so you've got SysV filesystem semantics.  Presumably you're using a shared group with everyone in it?
[03:10] <bairui> yep
[03:10] <fullermd> 'k.  So you'll need g+s on all the dirs under the repos, to keep the group ownership.
[03:10] <fullermd> And g+w of course.
[03:10] <bairui> out of curiosity, what OS are you on? BSD?
[03:10] <bairui> got that
[03:10] <fullermd> bzr will preserve that in existing bzrdirs.  The tricky thing is new branches; they'll get set based on umask.
[03:11] <fullermd> Yah.
[03:11] <bairui> my current umask is g-w
[03:11] <bairui> which sucks
[03:11] <fullermd> As it probably should be.  And anyway, you couldn't make them g+s with umask anyway.
[03:11] <bairui> oh
[03:11] <bairui> i haven't even *tried* looking into solving this yet
[03:11] <fullermd> So, any time a new branch is created (or a new repo, though that would be way less often), its perms will wind up wrong.
[03:12] <bairui> correct
[03:13] <bairui> so, bsd then... also in the curiosity realm... editor preference?
[03:13] <fullermd> The cheap easy ugly solution is to brute force the living crap out of it, and setup a cron job to `chgrp -R ; chmod g+ws -R` on /mnt/repos/websites every {hour,day,whatever}.
[03:13] <bairui> ah - I was thinking of a script to do the same - manually atm, cronned probably later
[03:13] <bairui> i was wondering if a hook might work
[03:13] <fullermd> Then anything new will be "correct" soon enough as to hopefully not matter.
[03:13] <bairui> right - is that my *best* approach?
[03:14] <fullermd> vi, of course.  Is there another choice somehow?
[03:14] <bairui> it certainly is... easy
[03:14] <bairui> vim
[03:14] <fullermd> That falls under the rubric.  Shoot, I've even used elvis.
[03:14] <bairui> as long as it has a v and an i in there somewhere, we're cool
[03:15] <fullermd> It may be your best approach.  The other option is for people to do it manually (and that means logging into todd directly and doing stuff).
[03:15] <bairui> nope
[03:15] <fullermd> It's possible you could create a third option by hacking bzr on the server.
[03:15] <bairui> nope
[03:15] <bairui> ok - so, scripts it is
[03:15] <bairui> good to know
[03:15] <fullermd> Squirreling with the VFS stack to auto-force perms on the filesystem is another outstanding choice.  I kinda like it, personally.
[03:16] <fullermd> It's a sorta-bug (call it a misfeature, maybe) that bzr won't propogate the repo's permission to newly created branches.  If that got fixed, it would take care of most of your situation.
[03:16] <bairui> and there's no harm in   chmod -R g+ws   on a repo, eh? I mean, don't waste time cherry-picking dirs for that treatment - just smack the lot.
[03:16] <fullermd> You'd still need manual intervention on creating new repos though, whenever you started a new project.
[03:17] <bairui> i have a repo-making script that does that atm
[03:17] <bairui> it's not remotely callable yet
[03:17] <fullermd> Not as far as bzr is concerned, no.  So as long as it's the same group for everything, and everyone gets equal access to everything, should be OK.
[03:17] <bairui> that is the case. cool.
[03:18] <fullermd> Never try to be clever when brute force will solve them problem   :)
[03:18] <fullermd> (and when it won't, redefine the problem!)
[03:18] <bairui> heh - never underestimate the power of force
[03:19] <bairui> we share quite a few aphorisms, fullermd. Chances are we have a common ancestor, at least academically :p
[03:20] <bairui> well, thanks again, fullermd for your advice. That clears up quite a few todos on my bzr/server plate. yay. :)
[03:22] <fullermd> I just think of it as "sharing good sense"   ;)
[03:22] <bairui> fair
[03:22] <bairui> i tend to do much the same on #vim
[03:22] <bairui> what goes around comes around
[03:22] <bairui> and as long as the pliers *never* come around, all's good
[03:23] <fullermd> Oh, them coming around is fine, as long as they don't close first...
[03:23] <bairui> closing after would be uncomfortable too...
[03:24] <bairui> especially were they to encompass *bits* between arrival and said closing oO
[03:24] <fullermd> Anyway, glad to be of help.  Now I have to go find a way to explain to people why their plans are impossible and their project is hopeless, without continual profanity...
[03:24] <bairui> well, you just had some good warm-up training with me :)
[03:25] <bairui> thanks again, mate. enjoy. later.
[03:25] <fullermd> Though I'm not sure why I'm bothering.  I've been doing that to date, and the project still won't die.  Maybe I should stop censoring...
[03:25] <bairui> start supporting it
[03:25] <bairui> amazing how that kills a project, I've found ;)
[18:19] <maxb> Hmm
[18:19] <maxb> criss-cross merges are annoying
[18:20] <maxb> And bzr doesn't seem to be being as smart as I'd have hoped about not generating conflicts
[18:25] <maxb> Oh, no, I was wrong to blame bzr
[18:25]  * jelmer waves to maxb
[18:26] <maxb> jelmer: Your latest merge into ~bzr/bzr/daily-ppa seems to have gone rather wrong, and included text changes from bzr.dev, without recording their ancestry
[18:26] <maxb> hence the conflicts
[18:27] <jelmer> that's something that often happens during criss crosses
[18:28] <jelmer> as there isn't an obvious common base
[18:28] <maxb> uhm
[18:29] <maxb> Why would bzr even be considering any text versions that happened in the future, with respect to all of the tips being merged?
[18:31] <maxb> I'm inclined to just push --overwrite the daily-ppa branch with the Debian unstable-2.5 one
[18:32] <jelmer> maxb: I'm not sure what you mean
[18:32] <jelmer> maxb: +1 on overwriting with unstable-2.5
[18:32] <maxb> The current daily-ppa branch contains text changes from bzr.dev r6038
[18:32] <maxb> However, it does not include bzr.dev's r6038 in its ancestry
[18:33] <vila> jelmer: lp:~jelmer/bzr/more-get-transport-from => 5878 lines ? You're overdoing it ;-p
[18:33] <maxb> This seems rather WTF-worthy
[18:33] <vila> jelmer: something went wrong with test_controldir.py, can you check ?
[18:34] <mgz> looked like a line ending change to me.
[18:34] <vila> mgz: I thought that at first, but unlikely from jelmer, instead a looks like including 2 copies of itself or something
[18:34] <mgz> I nearly commented but was reading mail in a hurry and didn't have time to check if it was
[18:34] <vila> s/a looks/it looks/
[18:35] <vila> mgz: hello by the way :)
[18:35] <jelmer> vila: looking
[18:35]  * mgz waves
[18:36] <jelmer> maxb: what lines are in daily-build from bzr.dev r6038?
[18:38] <jelmer> maxb: r6038 was manually backported to lp:bzr/2.4
[18:40] <vila> one should always merge up asap after backporting so *others* don't wtf'ed on further merges
[18:40] <vila> just saying
[18:41] <jelmer> vila: well, the debian packaging wasn't updated for bzr.dev until recently
[18:42] <jelmer> so there wasn't much to merge up to
[18:42] <maxb> ahhh
[18:43] <maxb> right, I think I understand
[18:43] <vila> jelmer: I was talking about upstream backport, packaging is a totally different beast (but merges not done upstream are likely to impact packaging too)
[18:43] <maxb> So really the problem is that bzr doesn't track backports, so it's necessary to ensure backports get merged back up into their source branch ASAP to avoid surprises
[18:44] <vila> maxb: exactly
[18:46] <vila> maxb: err, sorry, we're talking about two different kind of backports, your point is similar to mine though
[18:49] <jelmer> vila: I've updated the more-get-transport-from branch
[19:14] <james_w> hello all
[19:19] <jelmer> Hey James
[19:21]  * maxb wonders which is the lesser evil - forking the bzr-daily recipe into three, or backporting python-meliae-dbg and python-configobj


[11:04] <brendand> what's the deal with xrandr on ARM (specifically Pandaboard)?
[11:05] <ogra_> what should be the deal ?
[14:34] <plars> ogra_: hi!
[14:34] <plars> ogra_: strange thing I just noticed while doing the latest install on panda
[14:34] <plars> ogra_: when the screen blanks, it goes white instead of black
[14:34] <ogra_> tell me
[14:34] <ogra_> intresting
[14:35] <ogra_> i'm sitting next to a running install where the screen just blanked to black the second where you typed that
[14:35] <ogra_> plars, desktop or server ?
[14:36] <plars> ogra_: desktop
[14:36] <ogra_> hmm
[14:36] <ogra_> i would blame pvr-omap4
[14:36] <ogra_> or ypur monitor
[14:37] <ogra_> *your
[14:37] <ogra_> its definitely black for me
[14:38] <rsalveti> plars: that's dpms acting weird with the latest kernel changes
[14:38] <rsalveti> most of the times it behaves correctly, but I also got a green and white screens sometimes
[14:39] <ogra_> we could call it a "color test feature" ;)
[14:39] <ogra_> "while you are not working, ubuntu tests the color cabilities of your monitor for you" :)
[14:42] <plars> hah
[14:43] <ogra_> but in a more serious world, that should be filed as a bug indeed :)
[14:43] <ogra_> low prio etc
[14:43] <highvoltage> sounds like the original NES which would show full screen (sometimes alternating) colours when things go wrong
[15:08] <plars> ogra_, rsalveti: desktop seems to be working nicely, known issue with bug #1055949 but it's pretty minor.  And the ui is pretty slow... did we ever get good drivers for panda?
[15:08] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1055949 in unity "Unity panel shadow appears as solid black bar on GLES/ARM (Pandaboard)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1055949
[15:09] <ogra_> thx
[15:09] <plars> ogra_, rsalveti: looking a little more, audio seems to work over both hdmi, and jack (yay!) however I'm getting a weird popping noise at the beginning of playing a sound when I use the headphone jack
[15:09] <plars> is that something you've experienced too?
[15:09] <ogra_> not tried :)
[15:09] <plars> it's quite a loud pop actually
[15:10] <ogra_> plars, we ship pvr-omap4 preinstalled, you should be using it from the start on desktop nowadays
[15:10] <plars> ogra_: maybe I'm just spoiled.. it seems slowish to me
[15:10] <plars> but I'm just on older panda, no ES :(
[15:11] <ogra_> mie is still running ...
[15:11] <ogra_> *mine
[15:11] <ogra_> will tell you if its slow once its done :)
[15:11]  * plars is just glad the screen jitters are gone
[15:12] <plars> ogra_: probably server is a bigger issue at the moment - hggdh seems to hit your hdmi bug, and though my hdmi monitor works fine under server, the keyboard does not so I still have to install over serial
[15:12] <ogra_> yes, same here
[15:12] <ogra_> its on my TODO
[15:13] <ogra_> my screen works just fine now with server though
[15:54] <ogra_> plars, i bet the slowness you see is because update-apt-xapian-index runs right after boot (for about 30min) and eats all your CPU
[15:54] <plars> ogra_: ah, could be
[15:54] <ogra_> my desktop is idle right after install but the USB key blinks like mad
[15:55] <ogra_> oh, and apport usually grinds the system to a halt as well
[15:55] <ogra_> seems it just collected info for a gwibber crash for 15min here
[16:04] <sauerbraten> after installing ubuntu-omap4-extras, do I need to install a h.264 decode package or something? or is there a specific way I have to start video playback? shouldn't firefox be able to play h.264 e.g. on youtube?
[16:04] <ogra_> better ask that to the TI guys in #pnadaboard
[16:04] <ogra_> *pandaboard
[16:04]  * ogra_ hasnt used the PPA since oneiric or so
[16:05]  * ogra_ goes for a break
[16:08]  * sauerbraten will try totem
[17:14] <ogra_> plars, ha ! now my screen was white too ... it seems to be related to running unity ... before i wasnt logged in
[18:43] <sauerbraten> my X fails to use the correct driver. what do I need to put into xorg.conf? I had Driver set to "omap", which it can't find (said xorg.o.log) and "omap_pvr" (which made it look for omappvr, also not found) modprobe -l shows me "updates/dkms/omapdrm_pvr.ko"
[18:43] <sauerbraten> is there any way to find out the correct string to put as driver so it loads the correct one?
[20:17] <ndec_> sauerbraten: "omap" is the right name. so there must be some other problem


[04:56] <amirali> "Unknown API endpoint: " what ths mean ????
[07:36] <sto> kiko: http://askubuntu.com/questions/646278/how-to-ask-curtin-to-use-gpt-instead-of-mbr-with-maas
[07:36] <sto> as promised .. ;)
[07:40] <sto> Now another question... I'm deploying openstack with MAAS and Juju and I'm using LXC containers for some charms ... is there a way to make the MAAS DNS give a name to the containers... I'm mainly interested on the openstack-dashboard one
[07:58] <sto> I guess the answer is that I can't do it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/maas/+bug/1274947
[08:16] <sto> I was thinking about using an alias from another domain, but lxc containers does not seem to get a dns name... is that so?
[08:17] <sto> it would be enough to get the instance id as a name
[12:49] <oxkipo> Hi what power type do I have to use with virtualbox?
[12:57] <oxkipo> please may someone help me?
[13:21] <kiko> sto: I believe in 1.8 that is fixed
[13:52] <kristian27> Hi how can I setup virsh for virtualbox?
[14:01] <kristian27> please may someone help me?
[14:20] <kristian27> please may someone help me?
[14:39] <mup> Bug #1473069 opened: Inconsistency of determining IP addresses in MAAS environment between hosts and LXC containers <addressability> <lxc> <maas-provider> <network> <juju-core:New> <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1473069>
[14:42] <mup> Bug #1473069 changed: Inconsistency of determining IP addresses in MAAS environment between hosts and LXC containers <addressability> <lxc> <maas-provider> <network> <juju-core:New> <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1473069>
[14:51] <mup> Bug #1473069 opened: Inconsistency of determining IP addresses in MAAS environment between hosts and LXC containers <addressability> <lxc> <maas-provider> <network> <juju-core:New> <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1473069>
[16:25] <smoser> hey.
[16:25] <smoser> {"distro_series": ["'wily' is not a valid distro_series.  It should be one of: '', 'windows/win2012hvr2', 'ubuntu/precise', 'ubuntu/trusty', 'ubuntu/utopic', 'ubuntu/vivid', 'custom/rhel7'."]}failed to start
[16:25] <smoser> why doesnt it like wily.
[16:25] <smoser> the images tab shows wily in imported
[16:31] <roaksoax> smoser: 1.8 ?
[16:32] <smoser> i got it. updated bug too
[16:32] <smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/maas/+bug/1457499
[16:32] <smoser> we can/should feed maas whatever data it needs in the stream.
[16:33] <roaksoax> smoser: right but the releases is built from distro-series IIRC
[16:33] <roaksoax> smoser: but yeah the streams shoudlo tell us that
[16:53] <mup> Bug #1457499 changed: MAAS UI showing Wily images as 'wily' instead of as '15.10' <MAAS:Invalid> <maas (Ubuntu):Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1457499>
[18:23] <mup> Bug #1473167 opened: deploying node re-enlists regiond.log shows 'Unable to determine purpose for node' <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1473167>


[01:10] <maco> omg im being fanboyed in #ubuntu
[01:11] <maco> IdleOne: *thwap*
[01:11] <IdleOne> Did I say something wrong?
[01:12] <IdleOne> All I said was that you are a Rock Star :)
[01:12] <maco> smartass
[01:12] <IdleOne> some people have a hard time with fame :P
[02:15] <elky> Here we go again?
[02:15] <elky> maco, /me points to -women
[04:01] <maco> i wish at beta time we could start switching the +1 factoid over to saying "not released as Stable, but testers are more than welcome" or something
[04:02] <maco> rather than having it be in SCARY MODE even as final ISOs of the stable thing are being spun
[04:04] <IdleOne> submit a edit to the factoid?
[04:26] <gartral> dangit, i cant keep getting kicked from #ubuntu just cause my connection is wonkey! i understand the need for security, but security should NEVER compromise ease-of-use! that's more Microsoft's thing, no?
[04:27] <maco> if microsoft compromised ease of use in favour of security, it wouldnt have its malware problem
[04:29] <gartral> maco: microsoft has a malware probblem becaue their tyrannical A$$^&*#S, keep in mind, there are viri and other malware that attack linux, it's just very few and far between
[04:31] <maco> very few and far between because our security model is better
[04:31] <maco> ANYWAY, i told you yesterday how to get on, why dont you just do that?
[04:31] <maco> irssi -c irc.freenode.net -p 8001
[04:35] <IdleOne> when exactly did you get kicked out?
[04:46] <IdleOne> aemaeth link in -ot leads to a graph of a pot leaf
[05:10] <gartral> this is getting rediculous
[05:16] <IdleOne> what is?
[05:17] <IdleOne> gartral:^^
[05:18] <gartral> my internet is hiccuping, causeing my registration to fail cause im ghosting, and i have to ghost-log my nick to get back into #ubuntu..
[05:18] <IdleOne> and how is that a #ubuntu issue?
[05:19] <IdleOne> gartral: #ubuntu-ops is for handling bans/kicks not to complain about your internet connection
[05:19] <maco> http://blog.expatsinksa.com/?p=43
[05:19] <IdleOne> Please part as you are not banned in #ubuntu as far as I can tell.
[05:20] <gartral> IdleOne: because i keep getting bounced to the unregged chanel. and no-one answered me there.
[05:20] <maco> gartral: check out that link
[05:20] <IdleOne> gartral: you get sent to -unregged because your client is identifying after it joins channels. Also not an Ubuntu issue
[05:21] <gartral> maco: i have a failing disk, my web browsers are all screwed up x.x
[05:23] <IdleOne> normally your client will wait 5 seconds to autojoin if there is a password set in the nickserv pass field. #irssi can tell you how to extend that time.
[05:23] <gartral> needless to say, my luck is ctd x.x
[05:24] <IdleOne> gartral: again, this is not the channel. you are able to join #ubuntu to get help. you can join #irssi to get help with irssi.
[05:24] <maco> gartral: can i pm you the commands to make auto-ghosting work?
[05:24] <gartral> maco: please!
[05:24] <IdleOne> ignoring me because I am not telling you what you want to hear is rude.
[05:25]  * gartral really needs to setup a bouncer >.>
[05:25] <IdleOne> you really need to part this channel
[05:25] <IdleOne> !idle
[05:25] <gartral> IdleOne: i'm not ignoring you, my friend, i'm just busy and running around like a chiken whose head was just lopped off
[05:26] <IdleOne> ok, fine. Please type /part
[05:26] <IdleOne> You are not allowed to idle here.
[05:27] <gartral> i havent been idleing! i was talking with you and maco!
[05:28] <gartral>  and /part doesnt work in irssi, you need /wc :P
[05:28] <gartral> anyway, have a good one
[05:32] <nhandler> IdleOne: A little patience doesn't hurt ;)
[05:32] <IdleOne> trust me. I was being patient
[05:33] <maco> nhandler: you missed yesterday
[05:33] <maco> that user comes in here to whine for long stretches about the -unregged policy
[05:33] <nhandler> maco: True, I wasn't around for him yesterday. I was only looking at this isolated incident
[05:34] <IdleOne> He was the victim of a dcc attack in #ubuntu.
[05:34] <IdleOne> it's somehow #ubuntu fault
[05:34] <maco> and since he doesnt have access to the router's firmware, clearly #ubuntu's policy should change to allow vulnerable systems
[05:35] <IdleOne> or rather the policy of not allowing compromised users in the channel is stupid
[05:35] <maco> i uh...smacked him with the irssi manpage
[05:36] <IdleOne> which he can't read and I am not sure how he is going to read the instructions on the link to autoghost.pl because his browsers are all broken
[05:37] <maco> i pasted the instructions from the page into his pm buffer
[05:37] <maco> he said he cant do the wget part of it
[05:37] <IdleOne> he needs to clean install and stop messing with his system
[05:37] <maco> his manpage excuse was that small hard drive = didnt install the manpage package... while the manpage isnt a separate package
[05:38] <IdleOne> seems more and more like a sophisticated troll
[05:38] <maco> what is up with all the trolls that know how to spell and use punctuation lately, by the way?
[05:39] <maco> my trolldar needs an upgrade :(
[05:39] <IdleOne> I think it has to do with the axis of the earth and alignment of the planets
[05:39] <maco> is it a full moon?
[05:40] <IdleOne> isn't it always on freenode
[05:40] <IdleOne> :)
[05:45] <Tm_T> no really
[06:49] <goddard> hello
[06:50] <goddard> For some stupid reason the ubuntu channel is saying there is a problem with my rotuer?
[06:51] <IdleOne> did you follow the instructions from #ubuntu-read-topic ?
[06:51] <goddard> what are you talking about?
[06:52] <goddard> Im not running any tests on my machine because I dont have a problem with my router
[06:52] <goddard> This is obviously an error
[06:52] <IdleOne> well you must have been victim to a dcc attack
[06:52] <IdleOne> that is why you are being sent there
[06:52] <goddard> ?
[06:52] <IdleOne> join #ubuntu-read-topic  and type test me
[06:53] <goddard> I'm cloaked
[06:53] <IdleOne> being cloaked has nothing to do with it
[06:53] <goddard> it was probably a vicious moderator
[06:53] <IdleOne> I doubt that. we don't ban for no reason
[06:54] <goddard> Then explain in technical terms why I was banned?
[06:55] <IdleOne> because you were probably in #ubuntu  at the time a dcc exploit was posted to the channel and that forced your client to quit and forcing the bot to set a ban on you
[06:55] <IdleOne> join #ubuntu-read-topic  and type test me
[06:55] <goddard> So how is this my problem?
[06:55] <goddard> Why are you making this my issue?
[06:55] <IdleOne> if there is no issue then the bot will let you back in
[06:56] <IdleOne> it is your issue because the exploit affects routers that are not properly configured
[06:56] <goddard> How is my router "not properly configured"
[06:56] <IdleOne> seriously dude, join the channel, follow the instructions. problem solved.
[06:57] <IdleOne> why cry about it for an hour in here, you could of been done by now and back in #ubuntu
[06:57] <goddard> Thats not how I handle things I'd like to understand not just blindly follow your instructions or "orders"
[06:57] <goddard> I'm not crying at all
[06:57] <goddard> I like to know
[06:58] <IdleOne> ok. well then don't go to the channel, don't read/follow the instructions.
[06:58] <goddard> Thats it? or have we reached the limit in your understanding of the process be honest
[06:58] <IdleOne> nothing we can do about it. oh yeah you could also change the port your client uses to connect to freenode
[06:58] <IdleOne> change it from 6667 to 8001
[06:59] <goddard> Is there some explination as to why I should do this?
[06:59] <IdleOne> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixDCCExploit will explain further
[07:07] <IdleOne> goddard: is there anything else I can try and help with?
[07:07] <goddard> This is a problem with NAT redirection?
[07:08] <IdleOne> Honestly, I don't know. I know that it is as simple as changing the port in your client
[07:09] <IdleOne> to resolve it
[07:09] <IdleOne> or updating the firmware on the router.
[07:09] <goddard> My router also has an option to filter nat redirection so I checked that box I also checked my firmware its up to date
[07:09] <goddard> and the page says version 5 and mine is a version 8
[07:10] <goddard> missing some parts or something
[07:10] <goddard> Can you attempt to send me a invalid dcc command and see if it still works?
[07:10] <IdleOne> no
[07:11] <IdleOne> you can test by joining #ubuntu-read-topic and type test me
[07:11] <goddard> That sends the invalid command then?
[07:11] <IdleOne> no
[07:11] <goddard> What does it do?
[07:12] <IdleOne> beats me.
[07:12] <goddard> Who made it?
[07:15] <goddard> https://launchpad.net/~myrtti this person?
[07:15] <goddard> oh its a girl
[07:15] <IdleOne> ?
[07:15] <IdleOne> and?
[07:16] <goddard> not many girls into computers why?
[07:16] <IdleOne> of course not
[07:16] <IdleOne> they are all to busy learning to cook and sew
[07:16] <IdleOne> good night
[07:16] <maco> because we get sick of dealing with people who say "woah its a girl!"
 I dont do that
[07:19] <maco> there's a lot more to sexism than physical abuse...
[07:19] <goddard> I think its sexism
[07:19] <goddard> and no I dont
[07:19] <goddard> my women loves me as do most women I talk with
[07:19] <maco> "who wrote it? oh a girl" as if that explains everything... sexist
[07:19] <goddard> ??
[07:20] <goddard> I think you are being insecure or childish
[07:20] <goddard> it was simply surprising to see a women into computers unexpected and thats all the justification I will make
[07:20] <maco> no, i think you're completely oblivious to privilege
[07:20] <goddard> huh?
[07:20] <IdleOne> can someone please ask goddard to part this channel. he has the answers concerning -read-topic. Now he is just trolling
[07:21] <goddard> Thats the way you prove your points IdleOne?
[07:21] <maco> being surprised about women being good with computers is just as sexist as being surprised about men being good with kids
[07:21] <IdleOne> you proved it for me.
[07:21] <goddard> maco: you have some things to work out
[07:22] <maco> so, expressing such surprise was doing you no favours
[07:22] <goddard> ...
[07:22] <elky> goddard, you've been asked to leave, and you'll be leaving of your own choice or by my will.  I'd rather you repent for being creepy.
[07:24] <goddard> ?
[07:24] <maco> elky: ewww really?
[07:24] <elky> maco, well he was pasting myrtti's lp link
[07:24] <goddard> Now I want an apology from elky
[07:24] <maco> elky: oooh i see
[07:24] <IdleOne> when were you disrespected?
[07:26] <IdleOne> !appeals
 I am going to file a complaint
 you are free to do so.
 here is the link
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess
[07:27] <maco> why is it that when someone is called out for saying something sexist, they are suddenly the victim?
[07:28] <IdleOne> because then we are infringing on the perceived right to say whatever the hell they want?
[07:28] <IdleOne> they forget that this is IRC and not a democracy
[07:28] <elky> Yes, we and the rest of congress.
[07:36] <Cerebr0> Any ideas why I cannot join #ubuntu?
[07:41] <Cerebr0> Any ideas why i can not join #ubuntu?
[07:45] <jussi> Cerebr0: one moment
[07:46] <jussi> Cerebr0: what message does it give if you try to join?
[07:46] <Cerebr0> i dont get any message at all
[07:47] <Cerebr0> window just does not pop up
[07:47] <jussi> Cerebr0: which client are you using?
[07:47] <Cerebr0> i am using Empathy if that matters
[07:47] <jussi> Cerebr0: and do you have anything in your server window?
[07:48] <Cerebr0> You know I'm really new to this, what is the server window?
[07:48] <jussi> Cerebr0: you should have a window there somewhere which has all the info that freenode gave - the very first one to pop up
[07:50] <Cerebr0> I just have a contact list window (with no contacts) and this window that had 3 tabs, #freenode, #ubuntu-irc and #ubuntu-ops
[07:51] <Cerebr0> is there a different, better, client I should be using than Empathy
[07:51] <jussi> hrm, I really dont know empathy at all, so its hard to help there. you don't seem to have any matching bans as far as I can see, but I need to know if you have anything in your server window. could you perhaps try another client?
[07:51] <jussi> yes, xchat would be a large improvement
[07:52] <Cerebr0> ok i will try that
[07:52] <jussi> Cerebr0: if you still have trouble, please come back and ask
[07:52] <Cerebr0> thanks for being helpful :)
[07:52] <jussi> no probs!
[07:53] <jussi> glebihan: how can we help you today?
[07:54] <glebihan> jussi: thanks for asking, but not having any problem, was just following Cerebr0 as I tried to help him earlier
[07:55] <jussi> glebihan: ok, we have a no idle rule here, so see you next time :)
[07:56] <El> jussi are you there?
[07:56] <jussi> yes
[07:56] <El> this is Cerebr0
[07:56] <El> still can't join it for some reason
[07:57] <jussi> ok, so what does the server window in xchat say?
[07:57] <jussi> (first in the list)
[07:57] <El> says i need to +r be identified which i did
[07:58] <El> identify with services it says, since when have you had to do all the junk, i was able to get on no problem the last coulple of days
[07:59] <maco> since spam attacks
[07:59] <maco> !register > el
[07:59] <jussi> El: ahh, that explains it.
[07:59] <jussi> hrm, why are we +r atm anyway? did we have recent attacks?
[08:01] <maco> there were some earlier today
[08:02] <jussi> ElCerebr0: sorted now?
[08:02] <ElCerebr0> well im not sure why i couldnt get into it with my other nick i registered it but thanks for the help Jussi
[08:02] <ElCerebr0> yes it works now
[08:02] <jussi> ElCerebr0: you can be registered but not Identified
[08:02] <jussi> ;)
[08:03] <ElCerebr0> seems like an awful lot of hoops to jump through
[08:03] <maco> ElCerebr0: in the network list in xchat go to edit the freenode network
[08:03] <maco> set the server password to match your registration password
[08:03] <maco> now itll be automatic
[08:03] <jussi> ElCerebr0: unfortunatley sometimes we have to, as there are people who abuse the system
[08:06] <jussi> ElCerebr0: All ok now?
[08:06] <ElCerebr0> oh sorry im good thanks
[08:42] <rww> IdleOne: As I understand it (which admittedly isn't very well), FloodBot's "test me" command does actually send a DCC exploit command.
[08:42] <rww> hence people disappearing off the server if they fail it ;)
[12:40] <bazhang> [ibizatryx]<EMAIL_ADDRESS>ugh in -unregged
[12:41] <bazhang> feel like banning before he gets to #ubuntu
[12:44] <Seeker`> who is it?
[12:44] <bazhang> check his realname
[12:45] <ikonia> idiot
[12:46] <bazhang> horrific
[12:49] <bazhang> troll ho
[12:49] <Seeker`> I'll /msg him
[12:51] <Seeker`> sent a /msg, no response as yet
[12:51] <bazhang> cant have good intent with a realname like that
[12:56] <bazhang> !hi
[12:56] <LjL> there is a problem in my opinion if people aren't allowed to use !hi in response to someone greeting the channel
[12:56] <LjL> i agree it's stupid to use it
[12:56] <LjL> but what *is* the sane use case for the factoid? if it's there, people will use it to greet, can't blame them for doing the obvious
[12:57] <Seeker`> what is the syntax for forgetting factoids again?
[12:57] <knome> works very well in xubuntu, where traffic is low
[12:57] <LjL> !forget blah
[12:57] <bazhang> hehe
[12:57] <LjL> knome: does it work much better than saying "hello foo!"
[12:57] <Seeker`> !forget hi
[12:58] <bazhang> he's back
[12:58] <knome> LjL, yes, because then the ppl are linked to guidelines and also told that they are free to ask questions, since many times the next question is "can i ask..." if you just "hey foo!"
[12:58] <Seeker`> !hi-#xubuntu is <reply> Hi!, Welcome to #xubuntu! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines. Enjoy your stay!
[12:59] <knome> Seeker`, thanks
[12:59] <bazhang> I'd argue that the realname is bad enough to take action
[12:59] <Seeker`> give him a minute to respond to my PM
[12:59] <bazhang> OK
[13:02] <Pici> uh
[13:02] <Seeker`> uh?
[13:06] <Pici> hi
[14:05] <Pici> ...
[14:06] <Pici> A lot of people use !hi, why did we remove it exactly?
[14:07] <bazhang> time to unforget it
[14:07] <Seeker`> Pici: because someone was doing it to everyone that said "hi" in #ubuntu
[14:07] <bazhang> :)
[14:07] <Pici> Seeker`: And did someone tell them to stop?
[14:07] <Seeker`> and 2 lines of text for everyone that joins is spammy
[14:07] <Seeker`> yes
[14:08] <Seeker`> but there is a valid point of "why is it there is we can't use it"
[14:09] <elky> swiftarrow, sorry but we had to remove the !hi factoid because it was being abused. We're not likely to put it back so soon.
[14:11] <bazhang> ibizatryx  seems to be just joining then timing out
[14:12] <Seeker`> set up a ban forward to ##fix_your_connection?
[14:13] <Seeker`> !forget hello
[14:21] <bazhang> ugh
[14:21] <Pici> Shes done this in the past for other issues.
[14:22] <Pici> foobart/blue_anna
[14:22] <bazhang> yeppers
[14:22] <bazhang> kind of grating
[14:22] <bazhang> why not just a straight ban on ibizatryx
[14:23] <Pici> Why?
[14:23] <bazhang> check the realname on him
[14:28] <Pici> bazhang: did I misuderstand what was going on with qwert/cwillu there in -ot?
[14:28] <bazhang> Pici, nope
[14:50] <swiftarrow> elky, aww, shucks.  Too bad people abuse things like that.
[14:51] <elky> yeah, it's too bad.
[15:17] <elky> swiftarrow, was there something else we could help you with? We have a no-idle policy here so we can keep track of who needs help, but there's logs if you're otherwise just curious.
[15:28] <jussi> hello DBO! long time no see.
[15:39] <swiftarrow> elky, no, not really!  first time I've come across a no-idle policy...  I'm actually afk.  But if you prefer, I'll just leave
[15:39] <popey> liamsmith smells like a troll
[15:47] <IdleOne> seriously? we removed the high factoid because someone was abusing it?
[15:47] <IdleOne> errr !hi
[15:47] <IdleOne> so if some gives everybody the !ati factoid we will just remove the factoid
[15:48] <IdleOne> the !hi factoid is very useful, if there was a user abusing it then that person should have been +q and talked to.
[15:49] <IdleOne> kids should'nt play near stoves either, lets just remove every stove/oven
[15:53] <IdleOne> and not to harp on the issue but if the factoid is useful in a low volume channel like xubuntu, stands to reason that the benefits far outweigh one annoying troll who was abusing the bot. Remove the trolls, not the help/helpers
[15:54] <charlie-tca> +1
[15:54] <knome> charlie-tca, !hi is enabled on #xubuntu anyway now, as i requested it
[15:54] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[15:54] <IdleOne> knome: and that is great :)
[15:55] <knome> IdleOne, yes. i can see why it's not working as it should @ #ubuntu though. maybe people should forward the factoid to PM anyway.
[15:55] <charlie-tca> We seem to want to bury ourselves in extra work, when the correct procedures work so well
[15:55] <IdleOne> the factoid was working just fine, every so often we get a jerk who likes to abuse a factoid.
[15:55] <IdleOne> wait I have an even better example
[15:56] <IdleOne> !ops is used by the spam bots. REMOVE IT QUICK
[15:57] <Seeker`> wow, overreaction or what
[15:57] <IdleOne> maybe
[15:58] <Seeker`> the argument present was basically "its not abusive to respond to people that say 'hi' with !hi, so if people can't use it why have it"
[15:58] <Seeker`> *presented
[15:59] <Seeker`> so it wouldn't be misusing the factoid to do it every time someone entered and says "hi"
[15:59] <IdleOne> people can and should be able to use it, just not on every single person who joins the channel. that was a case of bot abuse
[15:59] <Seeker`> but that does involve spamming channel with 3 lines
[16:00] <Seeker`> is there a technical need for !hi, like there is for !ops?
[16:00] <IdleOne> yes but the user triggering is the spammer not the factoid beinmg misused
[16:00] <IdleOne> being*
[16:00] <IdleOne> yes there is. it links to the guidelines
[16:00] <jpds> Blinken red lights.
[16:00] <Seeker`> but afaict, the factoid wasn't being misused or abused. I can't think of any better use cases than it was being used for
[16:00] <knome> could some factoids be forced to direct to PM?
[16:00] <Seeker`> so does !guidelines
[16:01] <Seeker`> if someone says hi, it isn't inappropriate to respond with "hi". How many "!hi"'s per hour can someone do before it is being abusive?
[16:01] <knome> of course "!hi" shouldn't say "Hi!" *everybody* in the channel, but would it make sense to require a 'recipient'?
[16:02] <Seeker`> knome: in the case earlier, it was being directed at people that said "hi"
[16:02] <IdleOne> when someone says hi it is not inappropriate to respond with !hi. it is when a user is triggering !hi to every user who joins before they say anything
[16:02] <knome> Seeker`, yes, but what if !hi was forced to *always* go to PM?
[16:03] <Seeker`> IdleOne: well, the case that caused me to remove it was only being directed at people that said "hi".
[16:03] <Seeker`> IdleOne: and it was often enough to cause (imo) significant spam in the channel
[16:03] <knome> Seeker`, i mean, having somebody respond to "hi" with "!hi" everytime is not really abusive, at least not as much as printing the factoid every time is
[16:03] <knome> Seeker`, even "!hi >nick" is not that abusive/spammy
[16:03] <Seeker`> knome: thats my point, it isn't abusing the bot, but it is causing spam in the channel
[16:04] <knome> Seeker`, yes, but forcing/limiting the output to PM would remove that spam
[16:04] <Seeker`> therefore, it is a fault with the factoid, not the user, as the user wasn't abusing the bot, so the factoid is too spammy, hence why I removed it
[16:04] <Seeker`> what tangible benifit does the factoid provide?
[16:04] <Seeker`> Just a link to the guidelines?
[16:05] <knome> Seeker`, yeah, and well, it's a warm welcome
[16:05] <Seeker`> knome: there is a link to the guidelines in the channel topic
[16:05] <Seeker`> which is presented to everyone when they enter the channel
[16:06] <Seeker`> people can provide warm welcomes without a factoid :)
[16:06] <knome> Seeker`, imo !hi is 1) a nice warm welcome, 2) !guidelines, and 3) !ask
[16:06] <knome> Seeker`, which is justifiable imo
[16:07] <Seeker`> is the "welcome to #ubuntu!" that the bot notices you when you join the channel not sufficiently welcoming? Do people require two seperate welcomes from the bot to feel adequately welcomed?
[16:08] <knome> Seeker`, kind of yes, but some people *do* ignore notices, for example because their IRC client present the notice in a different/non-active window (like irssi does)
[16:09] <knome> Seeker`, i mean. the ignoring might not be deliberate/intentional
[16:09] <knome> Seeker`, but that happens
[16:09] <IdleOne> imo the benefits of having the factoid still outweigh the occasional spammy nature of it when it is misused
[16:10] <ikonia> no one reads it
[16:10] <ikonia> human interaction is nicer than someone hitting them with a bot
[16:10] <Seeker`> what benefits? Respamming a link and a greeting that is presented in a notice and the channel topic?
[16:10] <jrib> well the !hi stuff is annoying when the channel is busy imo
[16:10] <IdleOne> ok.
[16:10] <ikonia> jrib: the annoying part of it is the useful stuff isn't read
[16:11] <knome> agreed with jrib, but that's why i wondered if the factoid could be forced to appear in PM's only
[16:11] <Seeker`> the point is, you can't reasonably ask users to stop doing !hi to everyone that says "hi" because it is an appropriate, valid use of the factoid, even if it is spamming the channel
[16:11] <ikonia> it contains some good information, but it's always followed by "I have Linux issues" which is they had read the URL in the !hi factoid they would know that's not how to ask
[16:11] <jrib> ikonia: right.  The people usually saying hi also proceed to ask vague questions on several lines.  Leading to more factoids being thrown at them and ignored
[16:11] <charlie-tca> hmm, I can't count the number of people thanked ubottu for welcoming them when presented with the factoid. It really does help
[16:12] <ikonia> if someone says "hi, welcome to the channel, keep in mind this channel's for ubuntu support only" it gets read more than !hi ; ubottu blah blah
[16:12] <ikonia> I don't know why, but it does seem to
[16:12] <jrib> !hi
[16:12] <ikonia> !offtopic
[16:12] <jrib> what did it used to say?
[16:12] <ikonia> (kidding)
[16:12] <Seeker`> !hi-#xubuntu
[16:12] <charlie-tca> I start with more than one channel open, but I do get a "Welcome to ..." in every channel
[16:12] <knome> charlie-tca, well, of course it would be nicer that it was a human who said hi and told all that, but isn't the bot because it is easier to call a factoid rather than write things again and again... :)
[16:13] <charlie-tca> That's what I am saying
[16:13] <knome> charlie-tca, exactly. the rest of the comment was also for others to consider :)
[16:15] <Seeker`> there isn't any new information provided by the factoid, and I think its silly to have a spammy factoid we can't reasonably ask people to stop using for the sake of a few people wanting to appear polite by sending a factoid when they can't be bothered to type the message themselves
[16:16] <jrib> yes, and you can always just create an alias in your client with that factoid.  It's more likely to be read that way anyway
[16:20] <ikonia> I don't care either way, there are only a few idiots that abuse it
[16:20] <knome> isn't abusing the bot against the guidelines anyway, so there's a reason to warn/kick/can those users?
[16:21] <charlie-tca> So, at what point do you simply kill all the factoids, because somebody abused them and you can type them anyway?
[16:21] <Seeker`> knome: is it an abuse of the bot to send "!hi" to every user that says "hi"?
[16:21] <Seeker`> If so, what proportion *can* you send it to?
[16:22] <knome> Seeker`, use common sense?
[16:22] <Seeker`> if it is as useful as is being claimed, it should be acively sent to every user that joins the channel. Or at least every user that says "hi".
[16:23] <Seeker`> so it is a valuable, useful factoid we absolutely must have, but absolutely must limit the number of people we send it to?
[16:23] <knome> Seeker`, former, of course not, latter, yes, that's pretty much what's done @ #xubuntu and it works there perfectly.
[16:23] <Seeker`> xubuntu is far lower traffic than ubuntu
[16:25] <knome> i understand, and again, that's why suggested that the !hi factoid reply should be stricly forced/limited to PM's
[16:25] <Seeker`> I don't think that people need the information presented to them in PM, channel topic and notice within 10 seconds
[16:26] <knome> in my experience, some people just do.
[16:26] <Seeker`> those people will probably need it explained 15 or 20 times though
[16:26] <knome> sure.
[16:26] <knome> :)
[16:26] <Seeker`> and aren't likely to respond well to bots
[16:27] <ikonia> just to put a little perspective on it, a few users we've actually had to ban from #ubuntu for refusing to stop using it
[16:27] <ikonia> they took the argument stance that using it to say "hi" is a legitamte use, so refused to stop
[16:27] <ikonia> while that's a very small minority it can be contensious
[16:28] <knome> well, if you remove the !hi factoid, i'm sure these banned users and their soul-mates figure out some other factoid to abuse
[16:28] <Seeker`> yes, but then it will be actually be abusing the bot
[16:28] <ikonia> from their point of you, they where not abusing it, that was the contensious point I was referencing
[16:28] <Seeker`> rather than using a factoid for its intended purpose
[16:29] <knome> Seeker`, i'm sure there are other factoids that can be used for their intended purpose, but still 'abused' the same way !hi is/was
[16:29] <knome> eg. !guidelines can easily become one of those
[16:30] <Seeker`> no, !guidelines is only used for reminding people about guidelines if they repeatedly abuse them
[16:30] <Seeker`> which is a significantly lower proportion of users than the ones that join the chanel and say "hi"
[16:30] <knome> yes, but you can start to nitpick
[16:30] <Seeker`> not really
[16:31] <knome> oh well, i disagree. ;)
[16:31] <Seeker`> if there are multiple, rapid uses of !guidelines within a short space of time, there is something going on
[16:32] <Seeker`> if a user is sending it to lots of people for silly reasons, they can be asked to stop because an op doesn't deem the notice as necessary
[16:32] <Seeker`> and they are the ones that enforce the guidelines
[16:32] <Seeker`> whereas !hi can result in high levels of spam if 10 users in a minute join and say "hi", and it isn't an incorrect use of the factoid
[16:33] <Seeker`> a situation where !guidelines is called lots it usually self-limiting, because it results in an !ops call sooner or later
[16:34] <jpds> ...
[16:34] <jpds> ..
[16:34] <jpds> .
[16:34] <jpds>
[16:34] <jrib> .
[16:34] <jrib> ..
[16:34] <jrib> ...
[16:34] <knome> .
[16:34] <knome> ..
[16:34] <knome> ...
[16:34] <Pici> Can we try to avoid that here.
[16:34] <knome> Pici, i'm sure we can try.
[16:34] <Pici> Er, I mean using ! ops.  Many of us have the word itself on hilight.
[16:35] <marienz> yes, yes we do
[16:35] <knome> oh, right, so we're free to spam the channel as long as we don't use ¡spo
[16:35] <jrib> heh
[16:35] <jpds> Pici: My point exactly.
[16:35] <knome> sdo¡ actually
[16:35] <Pici> knome: Its setting off red emergency hilights for at least jpds and I.
[16:36] <knome> Pici, i'm sorry for the users that did use that :)
[16:37] <Seeker`> knome: long story short, I won't be readding the !hi factoid myself, and if you can show me any other factoids which are just as open to abuse as !hi and are equally useless/ spammy, I'll remove them too.
[16:37] <knome> Seeker`, if i come across those, i'll sure tell you. :)
[17:24] <Pici> Oh this is good, right at the top of that page is "This is a work in progress, it is not mature yet and it may break your system"
[17:25] <knome> heh
[17:58] <DBO> can you guys remove me from the !ops message in #ubuntu
[17:58] <DBO> I cant do much when you get spammed in there now days
[17:58] <niko> DBO: it's called spam
[17:59] <DBO> oh you're right its not coming from ubot2
[17:59] <DBO> my bad
[17:59] <Pici> You're still on the #ubuntu access list anyway.
[17:59] <jpds> Haha, ubottu DDoS.
[17:59] <DBO> Pici, I dont think I am
[18:00] <Pici> DBO: I just checked.
[18:00] <DBO> oh
[18:00] <DBO> I guess I am
[18:45] <jussi> err, DBO should have been removed a long time ago iirc
[18:45] <DBO> probably
[18:45] <jussi> DBO: you didnt renew on LP, did you?
[18:45] <DBO> no
[18:45] <jussi> ok, Ill remove you from both lists
[18:46] <DBO> I got hired by Canonical and have not really had time to help
[18:46] <DBO> it was unfair to keep on
[18:49] <jussi> DBO, sorted now.
[18:49] <DBO> jussi, thank you
[18:50] <jussi> DBO: you are most welcome :)
[18:50] <DBO> jussi, who tends to be in charge around here these days? :)
[18:50] <DBO> when I left it was Seveas handing over the reigns to LjL
[18:50] <Pici> The IRC Council.
[18:50] <jussi> DBO: myself, Pici topyli nhandler and tsimpson make up the irc council
[18:50] <Pici> gj
[18:51] <jussi> just keeping you all awake :D
[18:51] <Pici> Okay :P
[18:51] <jussi> besides, topyli is here beside me :D
[18:58] <Tm_T> jussi: give hjim a hug
[18:59] <jussi> Ijust did
[18:59] <maco> are you irc'ing from the sauna?
[19:01] <Pici> you hugged him in the sauna?
[19:02] <Tm_T> maco: sauna is sacred place, no gadgets there
[19:03] <jussi> no
[19:03] <jussi> no sauna irc
[19:03] <jussi> but we did visit the sauna
[19:04] <jussi> and no sauna hugs either
[19:04] <topyli> hug confirmed!
[20:20] <|EOF|> i have come to the conclusion that the ops in #ubuntu-ops use excessive force
[20:22] <|EOF|> and by tight ship they are talking about their anuses
[20:22] <Tm_T> pardon?
[20:28] <Tm_T> |EOF|: something particular we can help you with?
[20:28] <|EOF|> yeah, which one of you is garry newman?
[20:29] <|EOF|> i'm from the FBI's EOF unit
[20:30] <IdleOne> and you need us to tell you who garry newman is?
[20:30] <|EOF|> yes, he has been running for some time
[20:30] <|EOF|> that may not even be his real name
[20:30] <IdleOne> So naturally you firgured the Ubuntu ops team would be the people to ask.
[20:31] <|EOF|> yes, i heard from a source he would be in here
[20:31] <IdleOne> |EOF|: Do you need help with anything #ubuntu ban/kick related?
[20:31] <Tm_T> |EOF|: unfortunately this channel is not for such requests
[20:33] <|EOF|> never mind "homies"
[20:33] <|EOF|> cyall
[20:34] <charlie-tca> Hmm, and I thought the government would something besides a browser to access irc ;-)
[20:35] <Pici> A browser from an IP in Toronto too
[20:36] <IdleOne> haha
[20:36] <Tm_T> well, polite attitude always works
[20:36] <Tm_T> so whoever he was looking for is now save
[20:37] <IdleOne> He wasn't looking for anyone.
[20:37] <Tm_T> what, it wasn't FBI?!
[20:38] <IdleOne> except for someone to indulge him in his sad attempt to troll and waste someones time
[20:38]  * Tm_T hides
[20:38] <IdleOne> A more aggressive policy towards trolls is needed in my opinion.
[20:39] <Tm_T> IdleOne: even if less aggressive approach might keep them better away?
[20:40] <Tm_T> as in, not giving them what they're after?
[20:40] <IdleOne> what is it you think they are after?
[20:40] <charlie-tca> someone to argue with, many times
[20:40] <Tm_T> trying to get us to react
[20:41] <IdleOne> ok. so if the reaction is a ban they can't return to try again
[20:41] <Tm_T> IdleOne: I rather have them staying away on their own
[20:41] <IdleOne> time is saved by not having to deal with these idiots.
[20:42] <Tm_T> IdleOne: I had no issue to deal with this case
[20:42] <IdleOne> This time.
[20:42] <IdleOne> this was a recon troll
[20:42] <Pici> Was this person in #ubuntu?
[20:42] <Tm_T> Pici: not that I know
[20:42] <Pici> IdleOne: Or are you talking about our response in -ops?
[20:42] <IdleOne> response in here
[20:43] <Tm_T> IdleOne: I often deal with the most difficult cases, I dare to say
[20:48] <Tm_T> IdleOne: also I believe one can be strict AND polite (:)
[20:48] <IdleOne> true
[20:49] <Tm_T> not saying it would be easy, but...
[21:55] <niko> why not change !ops trigger in ubottu to do nothing if there is more than x nicks in the string received ?
[22:08] <IdleOne> +r set
[23:49] <ikonia> please keep an eye on oracle
[23:49] <knome> what about sun?
[23:49]  * knome hides


[02:27] <Private_User> experiencing very slow internet connections anybody else having the same issue?
[05:23] <Kilos> morning all
[05:23] <Kilos> hi feloegu
[06:29] <Kilos> feloegu would you like some coffee?
[06:29] <Kilos> Maaz coffee on
[06:29]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[06:33] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[06:33] <Kilos> Maaz ty
[06:33] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[07:04] <Kilos> morning superfly
[07:06] <superfly> hi Kilos
[07:16] <Kilos> trying out hexchat, hope it has sound alerts
[07:18] <Kilos-> Maaz hi
[07:18]  * Maaz waves to Kilos-
[07:39] <Kilos> hi Tinuva
[07:40] <Kilos> just installed hexchat and sound works.but only a little ping sound
[07:40] <Kilos> will get bell.ogg into its brain
[08:06] <magespawn> good morning
[08:08] <Golynx> hi magespawn
[08:29] <Kilos> hi magespawn Golynx
[08:29]  * Kilos going to town to get telkom modem now
[08:29] <Kilos> wanna talk to you later about opera please Golynx
[08:30] <Golynx> hi Kilos
[08:30] <Golynx> okay
[09:22] <magespawn> hey Kilos
[10:59] <Kilos> hmm...
[10:59] <charl_> good afternoon
[10:59] <charl_> Maaz: coffee on
[10:59]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[10:59] <charl_> hi Kilos
[10:59] <Kilos> hi charl_
[11:01] <charl_> how's it going
[11:01] <magespawn> hi charl_
[11:01] <charl_> hi magespawn
[11:01] <Kilos> just got back from buying a talkom starter pack with modem
[11:01] <charl_> how's the dsl router going
[11:01] <Kilos> hard work going shopping
[11:01] <charl_> Kilos: don't you already have a modem?
[11:02] <Kilos> ya but keeps disconnecting
[11:02] <Kilos> now for once i have a new modern modem
[11:02] <charl_> Kilos: is that the fault of the modem or the network ?
[11:02] <charl_> maybe you need an external antenna
[11:03] <Kilos> something funny. it shows connected still in nm but nothing works
[11:03] <charl_> hmmm
[11:03] <Kilos> no man i get good signal here from the tower
[11:03] <charl_> which modem did you buy ?
[11:03] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charl_!
[11:03] <charl_> Maaz: thanks
[11:03] <Maaz> charl_: Sure
[11:03] <Kilos> i gotta still open it to see what brand it it
[11:03] <charl_> ah ok
[11:04] <Kilos> says D-link and telkom mobile on the cover
[11:04] <charl_> ah
[11:04] <charl_> taiwan... very good
[11:04] <Kilos> says 14.4 mb/s
[11:04] <charl_> a modern 3g modem should be able to handle that
[11:05] <charl_> provided you have a good signal
[11:05] <Kilos> yeah i get 3 bars here
[11:05] <Kilos> i can see the tower about 500m away
[11:06] <Kilos> feloegu you still quiet?
[11:07] <Kilos> charl_ check if its a bot
[11:10] <Golynx> hi charl_
[11:10] <charl_> hi Golynx
[11:10] <Golynx> wb Kilos
[11:11] <charl_> Kilos: i get no ctcp version response... looks like a bot
[11:11] <charl_> or somebody who disabled all ctcp responses
[11:12] <Kilos> ty
[11:12] <Kilos> will watch
[11:12] <charl_> yw
[11:12] <Golynx> shouldnt one ask permission to add a bot to a channel
[11:12] <Kilos> actually yes
[11:13] <charl_> Kilos: and it's connecting from a russian IP
[11:13] <charl_> yup looks a lot like a bot
[11:13] <charl_> Golynx: friendly bots shouldn't be a problem but it looks like something shady
[11:13] <Kilos> we need an op to kick it
[11:13] <charl_> Golynx: all bots should at least respond with a valid ctcp version
[11:14] <Golynx> oh ok thanks
[11:14] <charl_> Kilos: why you asking, has it done something?
[11:14] <Kilos> had a spate of them yesterday on other channels too
[11:14] <charl_> bah
[11:14] <Kilos> this is the 5th one
[11:15] <charl_> sheesh
[11:15] <charl_> i wasn't on freenode yesterday
[11:15] <Kilos> i dunno what they can do here without one seeing it
[11:16] <Kilos> feloegu ping
[11:16] <charl_> that feloegu doesn't even respond with a ctcp ping, something weird
[11:18] <Kilos> i wonder if its not them things that are used in ddos attacks on freenode
[11:18] <Golynx> maybe those ddos freaks testing some new attack
[11:19] <charl_> who knows, probably
[11:19] <charl_> or it's just for spamming people
[11:20] <Kilos> superfly ideas?
[11:40] <charl_> Kilos: don't worry about it too much, it isn't seem to be doing anything at the moment
[11:40] <charl_> just ping superfly or inetpro when they come back
[11:43] <superfly> !bot
[11:43] <superfly> sometimes that triggers them
[11:47] <Kilos> feloegu !bot
[11:47] <Kilos> superfly lets just kick the thing
[11:48] <charl_> a truly malicious bot will not be fooled that easily
[11:48] <charl_> but as far as i'm concerned, a client that does not respond with a ctcp version is a problem
[11:51] <superfly> I know that Quassel had a bug a few years ago in how it dealt with CTCP requests, so the only way to stay on IRC when someone was exploiting it was to turn off CTCP
[11:51] <superfly> (they came into #quassel and started CTCP pinging everyone in there... was quite a fun day)
[11:51] <charl_> looooool
[11:52] <charl_> hilarious
[11:52] <Kilos> i turned off ctcp replies in hexchat here now
[11:53] <charl_> Kilos: you're using hexchat? on ubuntu?
[11:53] <Kilos> yeah
[11:53] <charl_> irssi is very good at handling ctcp requests, so i have no worries here
[11:53] <superfly> yeah, they fixed the bug that day and it rolled out over the next week to all the distros
[11:53] <Kilos> lot like xchat and if gives a timid alert where xchat had no sound alert
[11:54] <charl_> Kilos: i tried to install the ppa but it gave me a lot of errors on apt-get update
[11:54] <charl_> Kilos: apparently the package sources weren't valid or could not be found or something
[11:54] <Kilos> wow mine worked fine
[11:55] <charl_> Kilos: for the last two days in the office i was using hexchat on manjaro
[11:55] <charl_> i really like the feature where you can color-code usernames ...
[11:55] <Kilos> it seems close to what xchat was before it started giving sound probs
[11:55] <Kilos> thats too involved for me
[11:56] <inetpro> superfly: IIRC proper support for both DCC and CTCP is not yet included in Quassel
[11:56] <Kilos> inetpro hi
[11:56] <Kilos> kill the bot
[11:56] <inetpro> hello
[11:56] <superfly> inetpro: DCC is not included, CTCP is.
[11:57] <inetpro> superfly: but is it completely implemented?
[11:57] <charl_> what no irc client with dcc support ?
[11:57]  * inetpro looks at a very paranoid kilos
[11:57] <Kilos> hehe
[11:57] <superfly> I don't know... I would presume so, but since I never use it...
[11:57] <Kilos> kill it
[11:57] <charl_> *an irc client
[11:58] <charl_> *with no dcc support
[11:58] <charl_> phew i need to have more coffee :)
[11:58] <charl_> Maaz: coffee on
[11:58]  * Maaz flips the salt-timer
[11:58] <charl_> hi Iraeeu
[11:58] <Iraeeu> Hey
[11:58]  * inetpro prefers a simple irc client without too many features
[11:58] <Kilos> hi Iraeeu welcome to ubuntu-za
[11:59] <inetpro> dcc is not needed on irc
[11:59] <inetpro> IMHO
[11:59] <Kilos> doesnt it just work?
[11:59] <charl_> you don't _need_ it but if you have no dcc you can't get files off file servers
[12:00] <charl_> dcc is extremely old though, i can't believe there are clients that still don't support it
[12:01] <inetpro> dcc is probably the biggest reason why irc is so unstable at times
[12:01] <inetpro> too many peeps exploiting it
[12:01] <charl_> that makes no sense, irc is only used to extablishing the connection
[12:01] <charl_> why exploiting ?
[12:02] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charl_!
[12:02] <charl_> Maaz: thanks, now maybe i can wake up :)
[12:02] <Maaz> charl_: One learns a new thing every day
[12:03] <Iraeeu> Is this like a professional ubuntu chat or just a social hang out?
[12:04] <Kilos> the pro one Iraeeu
[12:04] <superfly> Iraeeu: this is the official channel of the Ubuntu South Africa local community
[12:04] <Kilos> the social is at ##ubuntu-za-social
[12:05] <inetpro> and the social is non-official
[12:06] <Kilos> but we socialise here too
[12:06] <inetpro> Iraeeu: is there something we can help with?
[12:06] <Iraeeu> Not much, im just busy configuring a home server, trying to decide if I should install nfs-kernel-server or samba for file access
[12:07] <Iraeeu> probably better suited for the social channel
[12:07] <charl_> Iraeeu: personally i use sshfs because it's secure
[12:08] <Kilos> Iraeeu you can get help here the social channel is kinda empty
[12:08] <Kilos> all the brains are here
[12:08] <inetpro> Iraeeu: no problem to chat in here, we're not a support channel
[12:08] <Kilos> noobs chat on the social channel
[12:09] <inetpro> non of us is paid to be here
[12:09] <Iraeeu> I have sftp set up already, but I need something more user friendly for my parents, I will look into sshfs though
[12:10] <charl_> what client are they running ?
[12:10] <charl_> if you are connecting from windows client probably samba is best
[12:11] <Iraeeu> 12 LTS on the server, connecting with mac
[12:12] <charl_> oh, then samba yeah
[12:12] <charl_> mac is a good samba client
[12:12] <inetpro> cloud services like Ubuntu One or Dropbox are also good options for sharing files these days
[12:12] <charl_> nfs afaik is a security nightmare
[12:12] <charl_> inetpro: well then you have to trust caninical or dropbox with all your data
[12:12] <charl_> *canonical
[12:12] <inetpro> charl_: or you cook your own
[12:13] <charl_> i have a friend who tried owncloud but that ended up being a nightmare
[12:13] <Iraeeu> cool thanks, yea its just a raid server for storing family photos, I don't really want to use a cloud server because my home internet connection is too slow
[12:13] <charl_> (according to him)
[12:13] <inetpro> like ownCloud
[12:13] <superfly> or you can run ownCloud
[12:13] <superfly> charl_: works for me. no hassles
[12:13] <charl_> interesting
[12:13] <superfly> despite being PHP
[12:14] <charl_> aaargh php :(
[12:14] <Kilos> Iraeeu where are you?
[12:15] <Iraeeu> I set up a php intranet connection to amazon s3 and glacier for work, but they have a better internet connection at the office
[12:15] <Golynx> who dissing PHP  :|
[12:15] <Iraeeu> ownCloud seems like a mess
[12:15] <Iraeeu> JHB
[12:15] <superfly> Golynx: no one, it disses itself
[12:15] <Golynx> who's*
[12:15] <Golynx> hey Iraeeu
[12:16] <Iraeeu> Hi
[12:16] <Golynx> superfly i see nothing wrong with php. It does what its designed for really.
[12:16] <superfly> Golynx: uh, yeah. let's just not go there, mkay?
[12:16] <Iraeeu> yea, its getting better with composer as well
[12:16] <superfly> Golynx: what's the URL to one of your sites?
[12:16] <Golynx> superfly ok cool
[12:17] <Iraeeu> Do you have any tips on getting my local server to stay on the same IP? I don't want it to change around after a power cut or restart...
[12:17] <Golynx> superfly: what do you mean
[12:18] <superfly> Golynx: show me one of your sites, I want to see if I can show you something about PHP
[12:18] <Golynx> Iraeeu: yeah composer is nice
[12:19] <charl_> Iraeeu: do you use dhcp on your lan? what's the dhcp server, dsl/cable router?
[12:20] <Golynx> superfly: lol no need to test for xss, url injection or any other vulnerabilities. Thats the first thing i sort out ;)
[12:20] <Golynx> thanks anyway
[12:20] <superfly> Oh, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about stuff built into PHP :-)
[12:21] <charl_> hi Rynomster
[12:21] <Kilos> cool Iraeeu there are quite a few ubuntu and linux peeps in jhb
[12:21] <Iraeeu> Probably just the router might sort out the dhcp, need to check
[12:21] <Kilos> and we are here all the time
[12:22] <charl_> Iraeeu: you should be able to configure it on the router, give the same static ip to the mac address of your server
[12:22] <Kilos> inetpro i got a telkom modem
[12:22] <Kilos> can do 14.4 mb/s
[12:23] <Kilos> so now you okes can stop telling me to get a decent modem
[12:23] <Golynx> superfly, hmm, if you can explain in a few sentences what it is you wana do ?
[12:23] <Kilos> that wonderpark shopping centre is massive hey?
[12:24] <Kilos> Golynx the fly wont damage anything. you can only learn from his help
[12:26] <charl_> yes listen and learn Golynx
[12:27] <charl_> xss, csrf etc can affect all sites regardless of server side language
[12:27] <charl_> sql injection etc
[12:27] <Golynx> superfly ok here is an old php site jarrydx86.byethost22.com/index.php
[12:28] <Golynx> http://jarrydx86.byethost22.com/index.php
[12:30] <Golynx> charl_ lol i know :p
[12:30] <superfly> Golynx: your server is running PHP 5.5, am I right?
[12:30] <Golynx> superfly that one is php 5.3
[12:31] <charl_> hi psydroid_ :)
[12:31] <charl_> how's the weather in poland
[12:31] <Kilos> hi psydroid_ long time no see
[12:31] <superfly> Nope, otherwise I'd be able to bring up the PHP logo and the PHP credits
[12:32] <charl_> superfly: some phpinfo thing?
[12:32] <Golynx> hmm, so you just wana show the php info
[12:32] <superfly> charl_: there are some PHP GUIDs that you can supply on the URL, and PHP will show the credits or the logo
[12:32] <superfly> http://www.phpsadness.com/sad/11
[12:33] <psydroid_> hi charl_ :)
[12:33] <charl_> ah what a disaster
[12:33] <psydroid_> hi Kilos
[12:33] <psydroid_> hi superfly
[12:33] <psydroid_> hi Golynx
[12:33] <psydroid_> yeah
[12:33] <superfly> hi psydroid_
[12:33] <psydroid_> I left my previous job
[12:33] <psydroid_> and started working here
[12:33] <psydroid_> and have been living at a hostel for this past week
[12:33] <Iraeeu> I was expecting some kind of clever social engineering, but all you want to do is show the php logo lol
[12:34] <psydroid_> yesterday I got my own apartment
[12:34] <psydroid_> so I am returning to normal life
[12:34] <Kilos> cool psydroid_
[12:34] <Golynx> lol and here i thought your gona deface the page or something
[12:34] <Golynx> but cool bug :)
[12:34] <charl_> psydroid_: nice in which city are you staying now (if i may ask) ?
[12:34] <Golynx> hi psydroid
[12:35] <charl_> superfly: that whole site is very good, for why not to use php, i might use it at works thanks
[12:35] <charl_> *at work
[12:35] <superfly> charl_: you're welcome :-)
[12:36] <superfly> Golynx: there's a difference between a bug and intended behaviour. That is intended behaviour.\
[12:38] <Golynx> superfly oh okay
[12:38] <Golynx> thats too risky of an intended behaviour
[12:40] <psydroid_> charl_, in Bydgoszcz, I work at Atos
[12:40] <charl_> googling...
[12:41] <charl_> oh that's nice and central
[12:41] <charl_> atos very nic e!
[12:42] <Kilos> wow how do you pronounce that
[12:42] <charl_> psydroid_: you're not allowed to use email internally?
[12:42] <charl_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atos
[12:43] <charl_> In 2011 Atos introduced a Zero Email initiative,[20] banning email as a form of internal communications, except for use with customers and prospects.[21]
[12:44] <psydroid_> charl_, I think they mostly use Lync
[12:44] <psydroid_> I haven
[12:45] <psydroid_> I haven't had to do much yet
[12:46] <psydroid_> bbs
[12:47] <charl_> http://www.bluekiwi-software.com/en/products/bluekiwi-zen/
[12:47] <charl_> interesting, we are busy with a similar project at work
[12:47] <charl_> we also have lync
[12:48] <Golynx> Kilos what was that thing about Opera
[12:48] <charl_> http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/applications/3409636/atos-drives-for-zero-email-with-bluekiwi-zen-roll-out/
[12:49] <charl_> "CEO Thierry Breton believes that internal email systems fuel data overloads"
[12:49] <charl_> "He also said that young Atos staff joining the company are unfamiliar with established internal email systems like Outlook, having been weaned on Facebook and Twitter, and external email systems like Hotmail and Yahoo."
[12:50] <charl_> "Atos’ Breton said at the end of last year that the drive to throw out email was driven by the discovery that his staff received over 100 emails a day, and that reading and replying to these took up to 20 hours of their work week."
[12:50] <charl_> "The Atos boss said that internal email systems fuel data overloads and generated messages that were not useful and wasted the time of those receiving and managing them."
[12:50] <charl_> extremely interesting, very much matches my personal experience
[13:00] <Golynx> There's just so many python web frameworks. One does one thing better then the other. One is hard to learn. One is too simple. One is not scalable etc... https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks
[13:01] <Golynx> ai, Iraeeu didnt feel at home
[13:02] <Kilos> ai!
[13:03] <charl_> people come, people go
[13:04] <charl_> some people stick around, others don't
[13:04] <Kilos> we didnt offer him coffee
[13:04] <Kilos> thats why
[13:04] <charl_> lol
[13:04] <charl_> or rusks
[13:04] <Golynx> <Kilos - 10:29> wanna talk to you later about opera please Golynx </Kilos>
[13:04] <Kilos> oh ya
[13:05] <Kilos> was about the opera mail client
[13:05] <Kilos> you gotta look at mail online? it doesnt download new mails
[13:05] <Golynx> you can choose pop3 or IMAP
[13:06] <Kilos> i did choose pop3
[13:06] <Golynx> i just choose IMAP
[13:06] <Kilos> but it dint bring anything down
[13:06] <Golynx> hmm
[13:06] <Kilos> oh and there is a fb fixer thing too
[13:07] <Kilos> never mind now i gonna lie down a while
[13:07] <Kilos> head thumoing
[13:07] <Kilos> thumping
[13:07] <Golynx> fb fixer ?
[13:07] <Kilos> i forget the extension name
[13:08] <Kilos> it can tweak fbook so you dont see all the junk i think
[13:08] <Golynx> oh nah , i dont load any extensions
[13:08] <Golynx> cool
[13:08] <Kilos> will look later
[13:09] <Golynx> drink lots of water fr the thumping
[13:09] <Golynx> for*
[13:09] <Golynx> drums dont beat well under water lol
[13:09] <Kilos> na its from pinched nerves where skull grew back together
[13:10] <Kilos> was a long day walking around shops
[13:10] <Golynx> oh okay
[13:10] <Golynx> have a good rest
[13:10] <Kilos> ty
[13:10] <Golynx> yw
[13:23] <charl_> didn't feel welcome either :)
[13:25] <Golynx> lol
[13:54] <inetpro> Kilos: sorry, I was just out again... glad to see you got a new modem
[13:55] <inetpro> oh and yeah that shopping centre in my home valley is massive now
[13:56] <inetpro> family and friends from rural no longer need to go to menlyn when they come here to visit
[13:57] <inetpro> funny thing is that when people from rural come to Pretoria for shopping they seem to think that menlyn is the only place they can go to
[14:05] <Trixar_za> I was in Pretoria a few months and I actually never shopped there
[14:06] <Trixar_za> Most of my time was spent in Hatfield
[14:09] <charl_> oh i used to work in hatfield
[14:09] <charl_> hi theblazehen
[14:09] <theblazehen> hey charl_
[14:10] <Trixar_za> I'm so happy with my R250 bucks refurbished system :P - It's a HP Compaq 7600 and just came with the Box, power supply and CPU (3GHz), but I got 1GB RAM from a buddy, transferred over my DVD/CD Writer Combo and put in a 160GB laptop HDD I had been using as an external. Instant system :)
[14:10] <charl_> how many cores?
[14:11] <charl_> intel/amd? hyperthreading?
[14:11] <Trixar_za> Hyper Threading
[14:11] <charl_> ???
[14:11] <Trixar_za> I actually learned something yesterday from Squirm - The Hyper Threading actually makes the CPU report as two CPUs
[14:12] <Trixar_za> Yeah, it's an Intel P4
[14:12] <charl_> oh
[14:12] <charl_> so single core
[14:12] <Trixar_za> Yeah
[14:12] <charl_> Trixar_za: just look at any tool that you see cpu usage then you can see it with two processors
[14:12] <Trixar_za> It's one of those flat desktop PCs
[14:12] <charl_> and then you can see it first filling up the first thread on each core and then the second thread when all cores have at least the first thread busy
[14:13] <charl_> that sounds like a really old system though
[14:13] <Trixar_za> Yeah, but it was R250 - so I wasn't expecting much
[14:13] <Trixar_za> Runs like a dream though
[14:13] <charl_> lol
[14:13] <charl_> for a basic linux box it's ok though
[14:14] <charl_> an old system like that you would have to give away for free here
[14:15] <Trixar_za> Where are you based now? Oo
[14:15] <charl_> still in NL
[14:15] <charl_> i don't move around much
[14:16] <Trixar_za> I hear they have monthly music festivals for chiptune music
[14:16] <Trixar_za> Sounds pretty cool
[14:16] <charl_> where is that?
[14:16] <charl_> bah i would not want to listen to chiptune for long
[14:17] <Trixar_za> lol, some of it is pretty good
[14:17] <charl_> i might listen to something on the odd occasion on youtube
[14:17] <charl_> but going to an actual music festival ? nah
[14:17] <Trixar_za> They invite the best mixers and trackers in the world to play live
[14:17] <charl_> i wouldn't mind seeing a recording, if you have a link please send it on
[14:17] <Trixar_za> Might just be monthly show - I was half listening to the guy that was talking about it
[14:17] <charl_> maybe they combine it with other stuff
[14:19] <Trixar_za> http://eindbaas.org/
[14:19] <Trixar_za> That's the one
[14:19] <Trixar_za> I want to go there atleast once
[14:20] <charl_> what are you kidding me
[14:20] <charl_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5I7jIUI4ec
[14:21] <charl_> this is madness
[14:21] <charl_> ooh i get a headache just listening to it
[14:21] <charl_> no thank you then i'll rather hit up some hardstyle outdoor festival
[14:21] <Trixar_za> lol
[14:22] <Trixar_za> Chiptunes are pretty big up there
[14:22] <charl_> eh... with some people perhaps
[14:22] <charl_> a small minority
[14:22] <Trixar_za> It's insane how they do some of those mixes
[14:22] <Trixar_za> Some are made on ancient gameboys
[14:23] <charl_> it's cool out of a curiocity standpoint
[14:24] <Kilos> Golynx the extension is called fb purity
[14:25] <Kilos> F.B.Purity
[14:30] <Golynx> Kilos i only use fb mobile on pc. This extension is for pc version
[14:30] <Kilos> ah
[14:31] <Golynx> you can look at http://user-guide.fbpurity.com too
[14:31] <Kilos> ok ty
[14:35] <Kilos> yeah lloks like just what i need if i go there
[14:36] <Kilos> looks too
[14:37] <Golynx> nice
[15:27] <Golynx> hi not_found
[15:27] <Golynx> hi bmg505
[15:28] <not_found> hiya Golynx
[16:21] <Kilos> hi not_found hows neelsie
[16:21] <not_found> hey uncle Kilos ... frustrated but good thanks
[16:22] <not_found> and you?
[16:22] <Kilos> im good ty. why you frustrated
[16:23] <not_found> because sometimes things that should be simple is so hard in linux :/ they should really revamp the whole sound architecture the same as they are trying to do with Wayland/Mir
[16:23] <Kilos> you battling with sound?
[16:24] <Kilos> sound and graphics are the main prob areas seems to me
[16:25] <not_found> trying to stream some games, but I also want to have mic audio ... alsa/pulse can't do this so you need to start playing with things like Jack... then it still doens't work, and after an update Jack doesn't ant to start... then you throw your PC out the window and it doesn't want to start up... :p
[16:41] <theblazehen> not_found, does it POST?
[16:41] <not_found> lol, was kidding about throwing out the window... wanted to however :p
[16:46] <charl_> hi not_found
[16:46] <charl_> wb Rynomster
[16:47] <not_found> hi charl_
[16:49] <charl_> how's it going in the desert
[16:49] <charl_> why be doing nothing in ruwait... when you can be doing nothing in ruwait? :)
[16:50] <charl_> i did enjoy that video (clearly)
[16:51] <not_found> lol
[16:51] <not_found> It was funny...
[16:51] <not_found> if the guy that created it ever sets foot back here he will be arrested but still funny :p
[16:51] <charl_> really? it's that bad?
[16:52] <charl_> no freedom of speach in arab countries still?
[16:52] <charl_> *speech
[16:53] <not_found> new law came out that forbids one to put anything on line that is deemed to put the country in a bad light...
[16:53] <not_found> freedoms here come and go...
[16:55] <Kilos> yay feloegu gone
[16:56] <not_found> I see the bulls got a last minute bonus point :D
[16:57] <Kilos> mnet been scramble here all day for some reason
[16:57] <not_found> who is feloegu uncle Kilos ?
[16:57] <Kilos> so no rugger for me
[16:57] <Kilos> was a bot that was here
[16:57] <not_found> oh haha ok
[16:57] <Kilos> from ussr
[16:57] <not_found> sorry to hear mnet full of nonesense
[16:58] <Kilos> yeah ty
[16:58] <Kilos> swines
[16:58] <not_found> you want the final score?
[16:58] <Kilos> yes please
[16:58] <not_found> 38-22 and bulls got 4 tries to 1...
[16:59] <Kilos> good
[16:59] <not_found> only missed one conversion and had one drop
[16:59] <not_found> so all and all sounds like they did well
[16:59] <Kilos> yeah things looking better after a bad start
[16:59] <not_found> still have little hope for them but at least they winning at Loftus
[17:00]  * not_found will be back later
[17:00] <Kilos> k
[17:06] <Kilos> if im not back later, have a good night all and sleep tight
[17:06] <charl_> ciao not
[17:06] <charl_> oh, tab failed
[17:30] <charl_> wb Golynx
[17:31] <Golynx> ty charl_
[17:33] <Golynx> how could they mess this up lol http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinion/newsweek-satoshi-nakamoto-privacy/#!yZoyl
[17:35] <superfly> Golynx: start with Flask. If that's not enough for you, move on to Pyramid.
[17:37] <Golynx> superfly: thanks, i will try them
[17:38] <Golynx> but just for the fun of it for now. PHP still got alot of the serious market.
[17:51] <Golynx> superfly: whats wrong with django.
[17:51] <Golynx> wb not_found
[17:51] <not_found> thanks :)
[17:52] <Golynx> np
[17:56] <Golynx> superfly: its ok i found an answer http://blog.stacktrace.ch/post/49178654214
[18:09] <theblazehen> Anyone got ideas on how to procrastinate?
[18:55] <superfly> theblazehen: icanhazcheesburger.com ?
[18:57] <superfly> Golynx: Nice breakdown. I'm a big Pyramid fan, but I've actually used Flask for a few small things recently. It's really nice to start off with a really small framework that still has a lot to offer
[19:01] <Golynx> superfly: yes, its always good to start small. Just the small amount of features in Flask is a bit of a downer. But pyramid seems like a good all round framework.
[19:01] <Golynx> hi theblazehen
[19:01] <theblazehen> hey Golynx
[19:15] <superfly> Golynx: I recommend starting with Flask anyways. Writing web apps in languages other than PHP is very different, so a small app in Flask would be a good way to start.
[19:22] <Golynx> I'm only used to python by making pygames and some tkinter apps with it. So the web framework part of it i havn't touched yet. I will start with Flask then soon after move on to Pyramid, since Pyramid seems more like what i want in a web framework. Thanks superfly :)
[19:23] <superfly> Golynx: you're welcome
[19:23] <superfly> Golynx: you know CareerJunction?
[19:24] <superfly> CareerJunction is built using Pylons, the precursor to Pyramid. Having said that, they are fairly different creatures...
[19:25] <Golynx> yeah careerjunction.co.za
[19:25] <Golynx> ah thats good to know
[19:28] <Golynx> but my focus is much more on PHP now. I will do some web apps with python as a hobby for now.


[00:12] <Ahmuck> k, i take back anything i said about linux edu software.  in testing, it appears it works reasonably well at teaching
[00:15] <LaserJock> oh?
[03:27] <ace_suares1> anyone home?
[03:44] <Ahmuck> .