[16:00] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
[16:00] <robbiew> hey Mooty...what's up?
[16:00] <robbiew> lol
[16:00]  * mvo waves
[16:01] <evand> hi
[16:01] <TheMuso> greetings
[16:02] <Keybuk> robbiew: I haven't set you my activity summary yet, sorry
[16:02] <robbiew> no worries...you aren't alone ;)
[16:03] <cjwatson> here
[16:03] <robbiew> james_w?
[16:04] <james_w> hi!
[16:04] <robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0128#Agenda
[16:04] <robbiew> liw is out....doko?
[16:04] <slangasek> morning
[16:05] <robbiew> ok...can get started
[16:05] <doko_> here
[16:05] <robbiew> has everyone gotten a chance to post and/or comment on the distro sprint team agenda?
[16:05] <slangasek> == Sponsorship ==
[16:05] <slangasek>  * missed this week; will do double-duty next week
[16:05] <slangasek> == Misc ==
[16:06] <slangasek> gar damn mouse
[16:06] <robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations
[16:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations
[16:06] <robbiew> slangasek: no worries :)
[16:06] <robbiew> "cruft remover/update-manager quirks code merge coding session [liw, mvo] "
[16:07] <robbiew> this will obviously not happen...at least in person
[16:07] <cjwatson> oh, is liw not going to be in Berlin either? :(
[16:07] <Keybuk> robbiew: yes, I've added a few bits
[16:07] <evand> What still needs to be done for GRUB UUID support?
[16:07] <robbiew> liw injured his back
[16:07] <Keybuk> :-(
[16:07] <Keybuk> is liw ok?
[16:07] <doko_> yes, added
[16:07] <evand> out of curiosity
[16:07] <robbiew> Keybuk: yes
[16:08] <cjwatson> evand: it locates the root filesystem using UUIDs; but it doesn't locate its own stage1.5 that way
[16:08] <robbiew> Keybuk: drugged and resting
[16:08] <mvo> :( poor liw
[16:08] <evand> right, apologies you mentioned that before
[16:08] <cjwatson> which I believe is the last remaining piece until grub no longer really cares about drive order
[16:08] <cjwatson> I was reminded about this by a rather inflammatory forums thread recently, and we really ought to clear it up
[16:09] <evand> indeed
[16:09] <cjwatson> do send my regards to liw if you're speaking with him
[16:09] <robbiew> there's also a cross-team agenda
[16:09] <robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda
[16:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda
[16:09] <robbiew> cjwatson: will do
[16:09]  * Keybuk spent an entertaining hour dealing with GRUB being unable to find stage 2 (I think) the other day
[16:09] <robbiew> I didn't really put much on the global agenda...dendrobates should be updating with an EC2 demo
[16:10] <robbiew> in any case, we're roomies...so I can drag him into our room if needed :P
[16:10] <robbiew> Keybuk: it was mentioned that perhaps we do an overview of boot performance work...interested?
[16:11] <robbiew> I didn't agree to it, or anything
[16:11] <robbiew> maybe a rehearsal for FOSDEM presentation ;)
[16:12] <Keybuk> robbiew: sure
[16:12] <robbiew> cool...I'll let randa know
[16:12]  * robbiew has a presentation! whew
[16:12] <robbiew> lol
[16:13] <robbiew> moving along...Feature Status
[16:13] <robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04
[16:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04
[16:13]  * Keybuk must finish his fosdem presentation
[16:13] <robbiew> need Specs at least ready for Review by this Friday
[16:13] <Keybuk> robbiew: my spec is ready for Review ;)
[16:13] <robbiew> if you don't think you can make it...let me know
[16:14] <robbiew> also, would like to know when you expect to deliver
[16:14] <robbiew> i.e. which milestone
[16:15] <slangasek> my specs will be there
[16:15] <slangasek> as dubious as that might seem at the moment :-)
[16:15] <robbiew> ok, thnx
[16:15] <robbiew> lol
[16:15] <Keybuk> robbiew: I guess I'll finish the last major changes for beta
[16:15] <robbiew> Keybuk: okay
[16:16] <robbiew> next is the usual
[16:16] <robbiew> bugs...bugs...bugs
[16:16] <robbiew> 9 bugs for Alpha 4...nice
[16:17] <slangasek> I may supplement those numbers before Friday, yet
[16:17] <slangasek> :)
[16:17] <robbiew> heh
[16:17] <robbiew> figured
[16:17] <robbiew> nice work on the buglist...everything under Foundations has an assignee
[16:17] <robbiew> except
[16:18] <robbiew> 78552
[16:18] <robbiew> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/78552
[16:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/78552
[16:18] <cjwatson> I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint :)
[16:19] <Keybuk> see, this is why warnings are pointless ;)
[16:19] <Keybuk> you should just break things and move on
[16:19] <robbiew> heh
[16:19] <cjwatson> or, in the case of update-grub, leave it alone since it was just fine where it was ;-)
[16:19] <Keybuk> well, yes, it does surprise me that it's not in /sbin
[16:20] <cjwatson> in that case the warning is silly because it discourages being called based on $PATH
[16:20] <cjwatson> I think it was because it used something in /usr
[16:20] <Keybuk> oh, I know
[16:20] <Keybuk> awk
[16:20] <cjwatson> anyway the move discussion was incredibly tedious and I have no wish to repeat it, but anyone could hoover up the warning; I think there might have been a relevant unmerged change in Debian, even
[16:22] <robbiew> it's just a warning, right?
[16:22] <robbiew> I mean...does anything actually break?
[16:22] <slangasek> the reason the warning there is because they wanted to eventually move the script out of /sbin
[16:23] <robbiew> ah
[16:23] <slangasek> so Debian's plan is to eventually make /sbin/update-grub go away, and then the warning becomes an error on any systems still using it
[16:23] <cjwatson> right, in practice it false-positives on people with /sbin ahead of /usr/sbin in $PATH too though
[16:23] <cjwatson> and also /etc/kernel-img.conf hasn't got reliably upgraded
[16:23] <cjwatson> so there is *some* genuine cleanup to do
[16:24] <slangasek> right; if /etc/kernel-img.conf were reliably upgrading there shouldn't have been a need for a warning in the first place :)
[16:24] <cjwatson> but the cost of leaving it there is approximately nil so meh. I think it's just on the list because it's annoying
[16:24] <TheMuso> Yay. Seems OpenOffice wants to crash whenever I load the room list for the sprint, and orca is running... :S
[16:25] <robbiew> cjwatson: so is this something the kernel team should address?
[16:25] <slangasek> nah, it's pretty foundation-y
[16:25] <robbiew> ok
[16:25] <Keybuk> is it?
[16:25] <Keybuk> grub is pretty kernel-y :)
[16:25] <slangasek> Keybuk: like udev is?
[16:25] <Keybuk> they touched it last
[16:25] <slangasek> I prefer my shell scripts to the kernel team's ;)
[16:26] <slangasek> i.e., I'll take this bug if no one else is volunteering
[16:26] <Keybuk> kernel people think userspace is an annoying botherance - we wouldn't trust them with things like udev ;)
[16:26] <robbiew> slangasek: thanks
[16:26] <Keybuk> slangasek: I thought colin and I agreed to look at it?
[16:26] <robbiew> oh
[16:26] <robbiew> :)
[16:26] <slangasek> oh?  I thought that was another bug #
[16:27] <robbiew> "cjwatson: I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint "
[16:27] <robbiew> Keybuk ^
[16:27] <cjwatson> that's a different unassigned bug on the list
[16:27] <Keybuk> oh!
[16:28] <cjwatson> that's the "non-ASCII characters busted at console login" bug
[16:28] <Keybuk> I'm happy to do the update-grub fixing
[16:28] <Keybuk> if slangasek doesn't want to ;)
[16:28]  * robbiew lets slangasek and Keybuk fight over it ;)
[16:28] <Keybuk> we could PAIR PROGRAM!
[16:28] <slangasek> nah, I'll take it, currently none of the other bugs on that list are mine
[16:28] <slangasek> Keybuk: EXTREME POSIX SH
[16:29] <robbiew> slangasek: thanks
[16:29] <robbiew> Keybuk: uh overkill :P
[16:29] <evand> Be sure to insert some design patterns into that code.
[16:29] <robbiew> next is the Sponsorship Queue...our good friend :)
[16:29] <Keybuk> robbiew: sorry, flashback to my days on the launchpad team there
[16:30] <robbiew> seems to be getting a little long
[16:30] <cjwatson> I did a double shift last week due to slacking the week before
[16:30] <slangasek> I notice there are a lot of items lingering on the sponsorship queue that are patches for our Special Packages that core-dev don't have commit rights to
[16:30] <Keybuk> slangasek: oh?
[16:31] <slangasek> Keybuk: mozilla, etc
[16:31] <Keybuk> yeah, now that I'm always checking bzr first, packages which I can't commit to really irritate me
[16:32] <slangasek> I think my complaint about this at UDS was lost in the noise of the plenary :)
[16:33] <slangasek> anyway
[16:33] <robbiew> slangasek: dholbach seems to have returned ;)
[16:33] <robbiew> heh
[16:33] <robbiew> well that's all I really have for this meeting...Bad News is there
[16:34] <robbiew> Good news...go Steve and everyone else who helped with 8.04.2
[16:34] <robbiew> whoohoo! :P
[16:34] <robbiew> AOB?
[16:34] <cjwatson> Bad news: pitti and I are currently fighting with ext3 file recovery after a bit of an, er, incident on cocoplum
[16:34] <dholbach> robbiew: how can I help?
[16:34] <TheMuso> For those who are interested, dmraid will likely be moved into mdadm at some point, or at least the dmraid metadata support will.
[16:35] <robbiew> cjwatson: oh?
[16:35] <cjwatson> so the archive is currently at reduced functionality; we're well on our way to recovery though, and will deal with the backups that should have existed afterwards
[16:35] <evand> Should we avoid uploads until further notice?
[16:35] <cjwatson> feel free to upload
[16:35] <evand> ok
[16:35] <cjwatson> it just took out some of the auxiliary scripts
[16:35] <robbiew> dholbach: slangasek had a remark about the sponsorship queue...
[16:36] <dholbach> slangasek: OK? :)
[16:36] <robbiew> dholbach: just mentioned your name...and to bring it up with you ;)
[16:36] <slangasek> so as far as 8.04.2, we had a bit of bad news there as well and some packages from -proposed wound up going out the door - I'm in the process of trying to get all of those packages through the SRU process so we can re-snapshot
[16:36] <slangasek> help with the SRU verification process would be appreciated
[16:37] <cjwatson> did you ever find out what went wrong there?
[16:37] <slangasek> not with any certainty
[16:38] <slangasek> debian-cd was changed back to enable PROPOSED again; I don't remember having done that
[16:38] <cjwatson> nor I
[16:38] <slangasek> so either I did and forgot, or somebody else did and isn't fessing up, or something went wrong in a merge when the checkout was updated
[16:39] <robbiew> are there logs for things like this
[16:39] <robbiew> ?
[16:39] <james_w> you're using an SVN checkout?
[16:39] <evand> bzr blame?
[16:39] <slangasek> james_w: ugh no, bzr
[16:39] <slangasek> evand: it was a local change that was never committed
[16:40] <evand> ah, ouch
[16:40] <slangasek> (because we toggle PROPOSED on and off throughout the point release cycle, I didn't bother committing)
[16:40] <cjwatson> in future we probably should, I guess
[16:40] <cjwatson> would give us that tracking
[16:40] <slangasek> so us CD folks will just have to take collective blame in this case
[16:40] <slangasek> or I can take all the blame for not having committed it :)
[16:40]  * robbiew avoids the "do we need an incident report" as...I think we don't ;)
[16:41] <robbiew> slangasek: heh
[16:41] <slangasek> technically, we didn't introduce any regressions in -updates :P
[16:41] <robbiew> ok...so any "GOOD" news?
[16:41] <robbiew> I got shirts :P
[16:42] <james_w> we're off to Berlin :-)
[16:42] <robbiew> hmm...cold
[16:42] <dholbach> yeeeeehaw!
[16:42] <robbiew> but I suppose  that's good
[16:42] <dholbach> it's -2°C right now
[16:42]  * mvo shivers already
[16:42] <robbiew> keeps the beer from getting warm ;)
[16:42] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:42] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:42.
[16:42] <TheMuso> Ok that is cold.
[16:42] <robbiew> don't need that in the logs :P
[16:42] <TheMuso> thanks
[16:43] <evand> thanks
[16:43] <mvo> heh :)
[16:43] <robbiew> TheMuso has to change seasons!
[16:43] <mvo> thanks!
[16:43] <Keybuk> yeah...
[16:43] <Keybuk> why don't we hold the January sprint in Sydney next year? :)
[16:43] <slangasek> thanks, all. :)
[16:43] <robbiew> or the Bahamas
[16:43] <robbiew> lol
[16:43] <robbiew> thanks all
[16:43] <slangasek> Ubuntu Off Shore
[16:43] <TheMuso> lol
[16:44] <Keybuk> we've still never had a sprint on the Isle of Man
[16:46] <evand> UDS Sealand?
[16:46] <davmor2> evand: they'll have the bandwidth :)
[16:56] <davmor2> Hello
[16:56]  * ara_ waves
[16:58] <heno> hello
[16:58] <pedro_> hello everybody
[16:58] <schwuk> hi
[16:59] <bdmurray> hi
[17:00] <heno> hey everyone
[17:00] <heno> let's start
[17:00] <heno> #startmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno.
[17:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:01] <heno> \o/
[17:01] <heno> agenda as usual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[17:01] <heno> * Wiki migration progress
[17:02] <heno> schwuk: any word on getting the current pages copied over?
[17:02] <davmor2> I've done some work to the initial layout and would like feed back on any hardware that I might of forgotten.  Also if there are any other install methods I might of missed :)
[17:02] <schwuk> heno: no - am chasing it up
[17:04] <heno> davmor2: the actual HW test cases will be on sub-pages of that right?
[17:05] <davmor2> Henrik Omma: Yes I just want to ensure that I haven't missed any HW for now
[17:06] <heno> ok
[17:07] <heno> we can always backfill
[17:07] <heno> I'm wondering if install should be its own root, rather than in System?
[17:08] <davmor2> Henrik Omma: Well the largest part of system is the installers so up to you
[17:09] <davmor2> Henrik Omma: the only other things that I thought about putting in the are all the system effecting tools like add/remove synaptic etc
[17:09] <heno> Let's do that then and leave System for system-level packages and system-integrity tests
[17:10] <davmor2> okay I transfer them over tomorrow then
[17:10] <ara_> I agree, System for installers is a bit confusing. +1
[17:10] <heno> we should check for things like correct write permissions
[17:10] <heno> davmor2: thanks
[17:11] <heno> schwuk: look forward to seeing the new theme on there :)
[17:11] <heno> any ETA?
[17:12] <heno> schwuk: you can use the icon from here: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website
[17:12] <schwuk> heno: imminently. Merged your changes and some borrowed from qa-website and the ubuntu wiki
[17:12] <ara_> s/borrowed/stolen ;-)
[17:13] <heno> ara_: should we plan a testing day where we go through and test all the new cases on the wiki?
[17:13] <heno> that should help us discover gaps etc
[17:13] <heno> testing the tests :)
[17:13] <ara_> sure
[17:13] <heno> when is a good time
[17:13] <davmor2> how about mid november ;)
[17:14] <ara_> when the cases are ready? :)
[17:14] <heno> it will also give us a useful checkpoint for the migration
[17:14] <heno> let's try the week after the sprint?
[17:15] <ara_> davmor2: is that feasible?
[17:15] <ara_> davmor2: what do you think?
[17:15] <davmor2> when's the sprint
[17:15] <ara_> next week
[17:15] <davmor2> no
[17:15] <ara_> davmor2: when do you think the cases would be ready?
[17:16] <davmor2> the 5th is alpha 4 so testing will take up a lot of time.  Unless that date has changed
[17:17] <heno> How can we help davmor2 with this? can we run a 2-hour migration-mini-sprint in Berlin?
[17:17] <schwuk> don't see why not
[17:17] <ara_> heno: sure
[17:17] <heno> great, sounds like fun!
[17:18] <ara_> heno, davmor2: if we do that, it would be better if davmor2 prepares a plan
[17:18] <davmor2> I think we can get a reasonable ubuntu apps and install up by then but that might be about it.  However after next week I can knuckle down with the test again
[17:18] <ara_> heno:  so we get the most of those two hours
[17:18] <heno> ara_: agreed
[17:19] <heno> davmor2: can we have a quick planning call tomorrow?
[17:19] <davmor2> Henrik Omma: np's
[17:19] <heno> ok, thanks for the updates
[17:19] <heno> any other meeting business?
[17:20] <ara_> the ubuntu-qa-tools package is in REVU now
[17:20] <heno> cool!
[17:21] <ara_> if you want your fancy script to be added to the package before is too late, send it to me
[17:21] <heno> let's make sure we get someone to review it last week
[17:21] <ara_> heno: dholbach and mok0 are already reviewing it
[17:22] <heno> excellent
[17:23] <heno> Next week most of us will be at a sprint in Berlin
[17:23] <heno> (for those who did not know)
[17:23] <schwuk> we are?
[17:23] <schwuk> :)
[17:24] <heno> should we schedule a meeting for next week?
[17:24] <davmor2> I am too now :)
[17:24] <heno> a public IRC and/or voice meeting that is
[17:24] <davmor2> Voice might be fun as most of you will be there won't you?
[17:25] <schwuk> heno: a public voice meeting might not be a bad idea. IRC seems a bit like overkill considering participation
[17:25] <heno> (e do actually have some in-person meetings scheduled already)
[17:25] <heno> phone/skype/ekiga?
[17:25] <davmor2> skype works so that might be the best idea :)
[17:26] <heno> ok - I'll make sure to bring a mic and speakers
[17:28] <heno> let's wrap up the meeting
[17:28] <heno> remember compiz bug day tomorrow!
[17:28] <heno> #endmeeting
[17:28] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:28.
[17:29] <ara_> thanks!
[17:29] <davmor2> Thanks
[17:29] <ara_> bye!
[18:51] <\l> Technoviking, ping
[22:00] <Riddell> good evening friends
[22:00] <Riddell> how are we enjoying KDE 4.2?
[22:00] <ScottK> o/
[22:00] <DaSkreech> Humpalicious
[22:01] <JontheEchidna> \o
[22:01]  * ScottK is sticking with 4.1.4 until we get the SRU through.
[22:01] <DaSkreech> Good 4.3 appetizer :)
[22:01] <Lure> Riddell: big time!
[22:01] <JontheEchidna> ^lol
[22:01]  * Nightrose waves
[22:01] <Tonio_> :)
[22:01] <Nightrose> very much sir
[22:01] <jjesse> hello
[22:01] <Nightrose> ;-)
[22:01] <yuriy> howdy
[22:01]  * DaSkreech throws himself off a cliff and lands on Nightrose
[22:01] <Riddell> is anyone here for membership?
[22:02] <Nightrose> DaSkreech: outsch :P
[22:02]  * jussi01 waves
[22:02] <DaSkreech> I'm a cute puffy cloud the only ouches I have are from my electric personality
[22:02] <stdin> perfect time for LP to have scheduled down time
[22:03] <JontheEchidna> yeah
[22:03] <alleeJaunty> Hi
[22:03] <jussi01> hehe
[22:03] <DaSkreech> Yay seele
[22:03] <seele> so i put the phone by my ear.. and didn't set the alarm
[22:03] <DaSkreech> :-)
[22:03] <seele> but i have a very loud text message
[22:03] <seele> here i am!
[22:03]  * seele yawns
[22:03] <Arby> \o/
[22:03]  * a|wen waves (a bit late as well)
[22:03] <ScottK> a|wen: I uploaded your kdepim fix for 4.1.4.  Waiting for it to be accepted ...
[22:04] <Riddell> shall we start at the top of the agenda?
[22:04] <Riddell> seele has an item about kpackagekit
[22:04] <a|wen> thx ScottK
[22:04] <ScottK> Is there a link for the agenda?
[22:04] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[22:04] <ScottK> Thanks
[22:04] <seele> colomar and i reviewed kpackagekit
[22:05] <seele> although (imo) it is still better than adept, it still has some problems
[22:05] <seele> and there doesnt seem to be a maintainer for it who can fix them
[22:05] <seele> also.. adept is now without a maintainer and i think there are still some open bugs about it?
[22:05] <JontheEchidna> about 45, including wishlist items
[22:05] <seele> ScottK had mentioned some concerns regarding signed packages and security
[22:05] <jjesse> and no help manual for adept
[22:05] <Tonio_> JontheEchidna: :)
[22:06] <seele> and there is no interactive installation
[22:06] <seele> so.. what should we do?
[22:06] <DaSkreech> is adept shipping in Jackalope?
[22:06] <JontheEchidna> DaSkreech: that's what we're deciding
[22:06] <seele> ...that is what we are here to decide
[22:06] <jjesse> that's the question
[22:06] <DaSkreech> ah ok
[22:06] <jjesse> lol
[22:06] <jussi01> *g*
[22:06] <Tonio_> my 2 cents : bet on the future, and the future is not adept
[22:06] <ScottK> As far as my security concerns are, Adept and KPackageKit are equally broken.
[22:07] <JontheEchidna> yeah, we can always fall back on adept if kpackagekit falls through
[22:07] <Riddell> I'm all for kpackagekit kit, I think we'll find people to work on it same as we did for adept when we had to
[22:07] <stdin> the general consensus from users is that they hate Adept :(
[22:07] <Tonio_> kpackagekit isn't perfect at all, but as you said, still better than adept, and since some other distros are gonna use it (fedora...) it'll not be abandonned
[22:07] <colomar> So adept doesn't care about package signatures either?
[22:07] <ScottK> Comparing the two, I think the lack of dealing with connfile changes correctly is a significant issue
[22:07] <JontheEchidna> colomar: correct
[22:07] <seele> ok.. so if we go with kpackagekit there is another issue. it only lists packages there is no "application" categorization
[22:08] <Riddell> seele: as I remember rgreening volunteered to work on that for jaunty
[22:08] <seele> do we have someone competent in C++ who wants to take a stab at extending the existing search for a new page of applications?
[22:08] <seele> Riddell: ah hah!
[22:08] <Riddell> at UDS
[22:08] <seele> he's not here though is he
[22:08] <Tonio_> seele: the gnome one does, so there is probably a functionnality needed to be implemented
[22:08] <Tonio_> seele: but packagekit does it
[22:08] <Riddell> seele: not right now but we just need to poke him to do it I think
[22:08] <seele> also, search needs greatly improved.. the filters do not work in the right order
[22:09] <seele> finally, there are some other minor ui tweaks which are important, but not as important as the former
[22:09] <colomar> I also read that the packagekit adept backend supports search in package descriptions, but the current kpackagekit doesn't
[22:09] <Riddell> colomar: then that should be fairly easy to fix
[22:09] <DaSkreech> Adept KDE4 was pretty broken
[22:09] <JontheEchidna> adept doesn't use packagekit
[22:09] <colomar> sorry
[22:09] <jjesse> adept kde4 was hard to understand/use
[22:09] <BluesKaj> kpackagekit , replacement for adept .. sounds interesting . The latest adept isn't much to my liking anyway .
[22:09] <yuriy> DaSkreech: oh?
[22:09] <Tonio_> colomar: once again, packagekit supports that, but not kpackagekit, so it' probably not that hard to fix
[22:09] <colomar> I meant the apt backend
[22:10] <colomar> Tonio_: That's good
[22:10] <DaSkreech> I just want debtags
[22:10] <ScottK> The one thing Adept does to right is deal with conffile changes.
[22:10] <alleeJaunty> seele: are you're list of 'needs to be fixed' written down somewhere?
[22:10] <Riddell> the MIR for packagekit is still outstanding, but asac and pitti said they'd look at them this week
[22:10] <DaSkreech> Whatever gets me debtags I'm happy :)
[22:10] <jjesse> allejaunty seele sent them to kubuntu-devel mailing list
[22:10]  * JontheEchidna goes to eat :( /me is for kpackagekit though
[22:10] <jjesse> sorry no tab completion on this web client
[22:10]  * ScottK is against
[22:10] <seele> alleeJaunty: yes, we have a review page on the kubuntu wiki. our working comments need to be cleaned up and then we will publish it
[22:11] <Tonio_> colomar: the thing is that for jaunty, kpackagekit will not be the same functionnality level than the gnome UI, but I have absolutly no doubt that'll change in the future, since other distros might consider using it
[22:11] <seele> jjesse: i think he was talking about the kpackagekit review
[22:11] <seele> ScottK: you are against kpackagekit?
[22:11] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: Will it be usable?
[22:11] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: more than adept imho
[22:11] <ScottK> I think the "we dont' care about conffile conflicts" decision is wrong.
[22:11] <jjesse> aren't we debating on the lesser of two evils?
[22:11] <DaSkreech> Other than the Adept not updating the database currently I can use it
[22:11] <ScottK> I think it will lead to broken systems.
[22:12] <BluesKaj> what about apt ...is it being looked at too ?
[22:12] <seele> does anyone else have concerns about how kpackagekit handles conflicts?
[22:12] <colomar> Tonio_: Yeah but the problem is that if we have a packe management tool in jaunty that supports neither software selection nor description search nor filters that are actually useful, we're in trouble
[22:12] <Tonio_> ScottK people capable to understand the conffile questions don't use a graphical package manager
[22:12] <DaSkreech> jjesse: indeed but also which is easier to corrupt to the side of goos
[22:12] <Tonio_> ScottK they generally use apt/aptitude
[22:12] <DaSkreech> good
[22:12] <stdin> how hard would it to get kpackagekit to popup a dialog for conf changes?
[22:12] <Riddell> I agree with Tonio_ for the most part on conffiles
[22:12] <ScottK> Tonio_: That's a very Xandros attitude
[22:13] <Tonio_> ScottK I'm deploying kde in corp environment, and believe me the very first thing we are asked is "make it shut up"
[22:13] <Riddell> stdin: hard, it needs big changes in packagekit
[22:13] <seele> Tonio_: the two things i listed really need to be fixed if we ship kpackagekit. Riddell reminds me that rgreening volunteered to shape kpackagekit up but he isnt here at the moment
[22:13] <ScottK> Tonio_: For a controlled environment like that, it's fine.
[22:13] <BluesKaj> so obviously you dev guys are leaving apt alone ... good :)
[22:13] <a|wen> what does kpackagekit do with conf-file conflicts atm?
[22:13] <seele> stdin: i think that is beyond the scope of what we can do in time. but rgreening would be the one to ask
[22:13] <Tonio_> ScottK my mother wouldn't know what to respond is asked that dhclient.con has changed because a script touched it
[22:13] <Riddell> a|wen: go with the current one I think
[22:13] <DaSkreech> Riddell: Are other distros looking at getting that in?
[22:13] <stdin> Tonio_: just because someone has a httpd for example, doesn't mean they never see the "there are x updates available" bubble and click it
[22:13] <Tonio_> ScottK that's obvious
[22:13] <Riddell> DaSkreech: fedora already has it
[22:14] <seele> DaSkreech: fedora uses it
[22:14] <ScottK> Tonio_: Such people don't modify conffiles either.
[22:14] <DaSkreech> Riddell: message popups in kpackage kit?
[22:14] <jjesse> it works decent in fedora
[22:14] <Tonio_> ScottK scripts do (dhclient is script modified)
[22:14] <jjesse> seems to be easier to understand then adept was ever
[22:14] <Riddell> DaSkreech: oh no, they have kpackagekit generally
[22:14] <Tonio_> stdin: the default action is to keep the old conf file
[22:14] <ScottK> Riddell: Fedora also likes the xorg-server patch that screws up KDE
[22:14] <Tonio_> stdin: 99% of the times that is the fine choice
[22:15] <ScottK> Fedora also shipped KDE 4.0 as a usable system for end users.
[22:15]  * yuriy should try out kpackagekit
[22:15] <ScottK> Not much of a vote IMO
[22:15] <Tonio_> stdin: and the config won't get lost
[22:15] <DaSkreech> !info kpackagekit
[22:15] <stdin> ok, but it's something to fix sooner rather than later though
[22:15] <DaSkreech> stdin: Can it be fixed?
[22:15] <stdin> obviously not in time for jaunty
[22:15] <Tonio_> stdin: what to fix ? asking questions ?
[22:15] <ScottK> So far we have no one doing any fixing.
[22:15] <Riddell> yes, ubuntu will write its own packagekit backend is the plan
[22:16] <Riddell> but not for jaunty
[22:16] <ScottK> So any theory about what might change is pretty irrelevant.
[22:16] <seele> ok.. so i think we need to regroup
[22:16] <DaSkreech> ScottK: not if it can't be fixed at all
[22:16] <stdin> Tonio_: generally graphical debconf prompts
[22:16] <ScottK> DaSkreech: Sure.  That's true.
[22:16] <seele> there isn't going to be time to do much with kpackagekit
[22:16] <Tonio_> stdin: those are creating problems
[22:17] <a|wen> if we at least can get an (optional) popup that the conf-file has  changed it's a usable start imo ... realistic?
[22:17] <Tonio_> stdin: my ex already answered yes when adept proposed to close kdm
[22:17] <DaSkreech> seele: Is there a list of your concerns somewhere?
[22:17] <Tonio_> that close kdm.... and adept
[22:17] <Tonio_> and the upgrade was broken
[22:17]  * seele sighs
[22:17] <seele> DaSkreech: yes, i already said so
[22:17] <Tonio_> people don't understand those questions, most of the times
[22:17] <DaSkreech> Sorry if i missed it
[22:17] <Riddell> we should move on
[22:17] <stdin> Tonio_: I was thinking about how mysql-server asks for a password, and things like that
[22:18] <DaSkreech> and java licenses >_>
[22:18] <Riddell> the plan is to go with kpackagekit and generally that's better than the alternative
[22:18] <jjesse> if we are moving on did we decide anything?
[22:18] <stdin> if people don't read dialogs before clicking "OK", then that's their fault ;)
[22:18] <seele> we did not decide anything
[22:18] <Tonio_> stdin: in that case you don't use a graphical component :)
[22:18] <seele> so.. let's pause the conversation for a few minutes here
[22:18] <seele> or else we'll never reach a conclusion
[22:18] <DaSkreech> Win+C
[22:19] <seele> three votes:
[22:19] <seele> Vote 1 for package kit *as is*
[22:19] <seele> Vote 2 for package kit with the two UI requirements colomar and i came up with
[22:19] <seele> Vote 3 for package kit *only* if it gets the config file handling thing you all are discussing
[22:20] <seele> please express you wish now.
[22:20] <ScottK> 3
[22:20] <Riddell> 1
[22:20] <seele> 1, but 2 would be nice.
[22:20] <Tonio_> 2, but even 1 is fine with me, thinking about the future
[22:20] <stdin> 1
[22:20] <colomar> 2
[22:20] <stdin> better than unmaintained adept
[22:20] <a|wen> 3- (as long as we get a popup)
[22:20] <seele> is yuriy or apachelogger here?
[22:21] <alleeJaunty> 1. 2 would be really nice to have
[22:21]  * apachelogger didn't follow the discussion so has no clue what the config file handling would be
[22:21] <apachelogger> 1 though :)
[22:21] <Lure> 1 (2 nice to have)
[22:21] <apachelogger> (2 of course preferred=
[22:21] <ScottK> apachelogger: Same as adept does and ask you about overwriting conffile changes
[22:21] <jjesse> 1 (2 nice to have) but doesn't know if vote matters
[22:22] <seele> jjesse: it does unless there is a conflict and we'll go with whatever council says. but i'd like to make it a member vote
[22:22] <alleeJaunty> apachelogger: you know what you're doing so you should use apt(itude)  as long as 3 isn't working
[22:22] <seele> ok.  so there are lots of 1s and some 2s.
[22:23] <jjesse> whatever we decide i'll work on documenting it
[22:23] <seele> only two people are concerned about the configuration files
[22:23] <BluesKaj> I am but not a member so...
[22:23] <yuriy> I haven't tried kpackagekit at all, so I dunno
[22:23] <seele> i will ask nixternal and yuriy what they think, unless they feel strongly about option 3, we will ship kpackage kit
[22:23] <seele> council ok with that?
[22:23] <seele> (yes)
[22:23] <DaSkreech> absolute number of 1s and 2 are the same
[22:23] <james_w> I'll also point out that it would make it impossible to install e.g. sun java where you *must* answer a debconf prompt for it to install.
[22:23] <DaSkreech> number of ones preceeding 2s is greater
[22:23] <Tonio_> seele: fine with me
[22:23] <seele> DaSkreech: most of the 2s were nice to haves
[22:23] <seele> yuriy and nixternal are both on council correct?
[22:23] <DaSkreech> Yeah I just said that :)
[22:24] <jjesse> ok so in the documentation we are now referencing kpackagekit in how to install software?
[22:24] <Lure> seele: I am also concerned about conffiles, but adept is not that much better
[22:24] <Riddell> seele: they are
[22:24] <Lure> seele: I more vote for the future
[22:24] <yuriy> I do think configuration files (more generally, questions during installation) are a concern though
[22:24] <seele> so unless one of them are strongly opposed to it (which we will have to rediscuss) then this is what we're going for
[22:24] <DaSkreech> With no canges?
[22:24] <DaSkreech> changes
[22:24] <Riddell> with changes if rgreening or someone will do them
[22:25] <seele> DaSkreech: we will go with kpackagekit unless yuriy and nixternal are strongly opposed for reason 3
[22:25] <DaSkreech> kk
[22:25] <seele> colomar and I will work with rgreening in the meantime to see what he can accomplish in the next two weeks
[22:25] <seele> so.. end of kpackagekit discussion
[22:25] <seele> next.. quassel
[22:25] <seele> any quassel devs here? i think Sput is probably sleeping by now
[22:25] <Nightrose> EgS: poke
[22:25] <EgS> ouch :)
[22:26] <seele> ScottK: you are pretty up on their development. is there anything we should know in the consideration of quassel?
[22:26] <stdin> jussi01's favourite subject
[22:26] <Nightrose> ;-)
[22:26] <jussi01> :D
[22:26] <seele> btw. this discussion is about including quassel as the default irc client. our goal is to be kde4libs only and konversation has not been ported
[22:26] <seele> ScottK: ping
[22:26] <seele> ok so anyway
[22:26] <jjesse> if we use quassel it will be yet another application by defualt with no documentation/help file
[22:26] <Nightrose> EgS: how's the progress on seele's list?
[22:26]  * jussi01 thinks that the quassel devs response times are excellent.
[22:27] <DaSkreech> Quassel has KDE4 integration now I hear?
[22:27] <seele> i did a UI review of quassel and came up with a list of issues they had to address
[22:27] <Nightrose> yes
[22:27] <DaSkreech> Kool
[22:27] <seele> the quassel code monkeys have fixed many minor issues and are currently working on bigger issues
[22:27] <seele> this includes a toolbar for common irc actions and a better connection dialog for when the irc client opens
[22:28] <EgS> seele: thought the biggest issue (the separation of core / client) is fixed ;)
[22:28] <seele> i'm not sure what the status of those two things are
[22:28]  * Nightrose is using quassel as her client for a few months now and is impressed with the latest changes
[22:28] <seele> EgS: just about to say that :)
[22:28] <EgS> toolbar is coming soonish, as we have now nice new icons :)
[22:28] <seele> they have done a great job of separating the core and client in to a monolithic client
[22:28]  * JontheEchidna was actually able to replace konversation with quassel :D
[22:28] <seele> EgS: do you have any concerns about getting things done by featurefreeze?
[22:28] <seele> ^ Feb 19th i think?
[22:28] <BluesKaj> seele , I hope so cuz I found quassel kinda clunky , hope it gets fixed
[22:29]  * DaSkreech would be concerned with connection experience
[22:29]  * Lure switched to quassel and likes it
[22:29]  * alleeJaunty tried quassel 2 hours ago for the first time.   Still much too complicated, but I can see the potential
[22:29] <DaSkreech> #kubuntu is the main help for people drastically confused as to what is going on
[22:29] <seele> so for those of you concerned with quassel, it improves every day. so unless you have been keeping up with /trunk/ via ScottK's PPA, you are probably missing a lot
[22:29] <EgS> seele: no I don't. I consider the toolbar a small issue too (at least judging by the amount of work needed)
[22:29] <DaSkreech> And one of the things I liked about KDE was it was much easier to jump on IRC to get help
[22:30] <seele> EgS: ok.  I gave Sput some suggestions on how to use the existing network Config as the connection screen too
[22:30]  * alleeJaunty checks the ppa
[22:30] <jjesse> what is scottk's ppa?  is it jaunty only?
[22:30] <BluesKaj> DaSkreech , I have quassel working ok , but the setup is a bit confusing IMO
[22:30] <seele> jjesse: no, it is available for intrepid too
[22:30]  * jjesse makes note
[22:30]  * ScottK is back
[22:30] <jussi01> jjesse: ~kitterman
[22:30] <DaSkreech> BluesKaj: and you are very familar with IRC concepts
[22:30] <seele> so, basically there are two more things left on my requirements list that they are confident they will complete: the toolbar and the connection screen
[22:30] <Nightrose> people don't forget that there are two ways to use quassel
[22:30] <seele> the goal was to make quassel easy enough for users to be able to launch the program and connect to #kubuntu for help
[22:30] <jussi01> BluesKaj: but are you using the new mono client or?
[22:30] <Nightrose> the monolithic one got a lot easier lately
[22:31] <seele> additional UI refinement can come later
[22:31] <DaSkreech> Nightrose: Sweet
[22:31] <seele> since we don't have any other options, i dont think we need to vote
[22:31] <DaSkreech> Just a note as to what needs to be done
[22:31] <seele> so unless something blows up in terms of development in the next two weeks, i recommend we ship quassel
[22:31] <seele> anyone opposed?
[22:31] <Nightrose> +1
[22:31] <BluesKaj> DaSkreech , I hope that was said in jest , concepts no, but useability , yes ...I've tried many clients over the yrs
[22:31] <jussi01> +1 from me :D
[22:31] <ScottK> I'll just toss in that Quassel's upstream is very active and very responsive.
[22:32] <Riddell> is it keeping the wee window at the top with data from all channels?
[22:32] <ScottK> Also kees just did a security review and he found it well designed.
[22:32] <ScottK> Riddell: It is
[22:32] <Riddell> ScottK: oh he did that?
[22:32] <seele> Riddell: that's an option that can be configured.  we can decide later if we want to enable that by default
[22:32] <JontheEchidna> quassel++
[22:32] <ScottK> Riddell: He did.
[22:32] <Riddell> ScottK: can you make sure the MIR bug is updated
[22:32] <ScottK> Riddell: I will.
[22:32] <Riddell> thanks
[22:32] <Tonio_> +1 for me
[22:32] <stdin> we should disable the buffer at the top IMO, it will confuse people :p
[22:32] <seele> ok. i hear no one opposed about the inclusion of quassel
[22:33] <seele> EgS: congratulations ;)
[22:33] <EgS> \o/
[22:33] <JontheEchidna> \m/
[22:33] <DaSkreech> BluesKaj: Same thing :)
[22:33] <jussi01> \o/
[22:33] <jjesse> +1 from me but only because konversation is no longer a choice
[22:33] <seele> net topic is the removal of Arts. is andreas here?
[22:33] <Riddell> a|wen
[22:33]  * a|wen waves
[22:33] <BluesKaj> DaSkreech , so what's your opinion of quassel ?
[22:33] <seele> a|wen: want to tell us about arts
[22:34] <ScottK> Since knights is broken due to lack of KDE3, just remove it.
[22:34] <seele> BluesKaj: DaSkreech: please talk about that out of channel for the time being
[22:34] <ScottK> I've been asking for removal of such packages as I find them.
[22:34] <a|wen> the removal is tracked here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RemoveArts
[22:34] <DaSkreech> Great Concept. Like the buffers It's a goof GUI analogy to Screen and irssi needs to have a two click setup if we are going to have it by default
[22:34] <BluesKaj> seele, ok sry
[22:34] <Tonio_> ScottK then we should consider all kde3 ioslaves to drop :)
[22:34] <a|wen> most of them should be able to be compiled without arts ... but there is to problems
[22:34] <ScottK> Tonio_: OK
[22:35] <Tonio_> ScottK kio-beagle, kio-locate, datakiosk... those are broken
[22:35] <a|wen> nateon and knights ... are we ok on dropping them?
[22:35] <Riddell> Tonio_: give me a list and I'll remove them
[22:35] <seele> what are nateon and knights?
[22:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: yup, will do
[22:35] <Riddell> knights is chess
[22:35] <JontheEchidna> seele: nateon is a korean chat app
[22:35] <BluesKaj> hmm , brb
[22:35]  * ScottK points seele at the agenda
[22:35] <jussi01> seele: agenda ;)
[22:35] <jussi01> hehe
[22:35] <seele> ? we're talking about arts right?
[22:36] <JontheEchidna> yes, they depend on arts
[22:36] <EgS> as a general note: if anybody feels he needs to discuss something about quassel or needs fast feedback: feel yourself invited to join #quassel
[22:36] <seele> is there another kde chess game?
[22:36] <seele> or do we care if we have a chess game?
[22:36] <ScottK> seele: It doesn't matter, it's broken anyway
[22:36] <apachelogger> seele: agenda :P
[22:36] <Riddell> a|wen: I take it nateon can't be compiled without arts?
[22:36] <a|wen> that is our problem (maybe)
[22:36] <ScottK> Can arts be patched out of nateon?
[22:36] <a|wen> Riddell: exactly
[22:37] <apachelogger> well
[22:37] <apachelogger> we could hack it up
[22:37] <apachelogger> but
[22:37] <apachelogger> http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=nateon
[22:37] <apachelogger> doesn't seem to be very popular
[22:37] <JontheEchidna> we must not be big with the south koreans
[22:37] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: we have crap localization, what do you expect :P
[22:37] <ScottK> That's in Debian, not Kubuntu
[22:37] <JontheEchidna> :P
[22:37] <apachelogger> ScottK: well, it gives an idea
[22:37] <DaSkreech> seele: I think there are enough Chess games that people won't get huffy about it
[22:38] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: +1
[22:38] <JontheEchidna> dood, people get huffy is kpdf and kghostview aren't in intrepid
[22:38] <JontheEchidna> even though they have okular
[22:38] <a|wen> i don't think hacking op nateon is worth it (and documentation is in korean!!)
[22:38] <DaSkreech> ubottu knows at least 5 or 6
[22:39] <Nightrose> does anyone use a chess program here?
[22:39] <DaSkreech> a|wen: can we notify upstream at least?
[22:39] <Nightrose> would be nice to get an opinion from someone who actually play chess
[22:39] <Nightrose> *plays
[22:39] <apachelogger> well
[22:39] <apachelogger> knights is dead
[22:39] <a|wen> DaSkreech: i can do that
[22:39] <apachelogger> like _completely_
[22:39] <Nightrose> hehe ok
[22:39] <apachelogger> last release was some pre-release in 2005
[22:39] <Nightrose> ooooooook...
[22:40] <apachelogger> keeping it around would only delay the unavoidable
[22:40] <nixternal> yo yo
[22:40] <a|wen> and we are shipping staple from 2003 patched up
[22:40] <Nightrose> yo yo Nicke_
[22:40] <alleeJaunty> The jaunty announcement should mention the list of removed kde3 only apps IMHO
[22:40] <ScottK> It won't get any more broken if we remove it
[22:40] <Nightrose> nixternal even
[22:40] <nixternal> ya, at work...only check IRC like once in a blue moon
[22:40] <ScottK> Ubuntu popcon data for nateon is nateon                           274    18   241    14     1
[22:40]  * nixternal goes back away from IRC
[22:41] <apachelogger> for nateon I propose: talk to upstream => if no KDE 4 in sight, but planed => _try_ patching; if no KDE 4 version planed => drop it
[22:41] <Tonio_> http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Tagua?content=65571
[22:41] <Tonio_> we can package this :)
[22:41] <apachelogger> if patching fails arts just needs to stick around a bit longer
[22:41] <a|wen> Tonio_: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=tagua
[22:41] <apachelogger> Tonio_: as agenda says it is already in debian/experimental ;-)
[22:41] <DaSkreech> nixternal: needed a vote from you is all
[22:41] <Tonio_> apachelogger: oups...
[22:41] <a|wen> and it actually works pretty well
[22:41] <DaSkreech> Tagua is a bit dead as I recall But can be massaged
[22:42] <ScottK> There is a pidgin-nateon that's substanitally more popular than nateon
[22:42] <DaSkreech> Prod Kopete :)
[22:42] <Riddell> indeed, those koreans should really just write a plugin for kopete
[22:42] <DaSkreech> I'm assuming it doesn't use a libnateon ?
[22:42] <apachelogger> no
[22:43] <DaSkreech> Yeah make some contact with the Korean KDErs
[22:43] <Riddell> I propose we drop it and just notify upstream and kde-kr
[22:44] <DaSkreech> +1
[22:44] <Tonio_> +1
[22:44] <a|wen> +1
[22:44] <ScottK> +1
[22:44] <apachelogger> +1
[22:44] <JontheEchidna> +1
[22:44] <jjesse> +1
[22:44] <Nightrose> +1
[22:44] <Arby> +1
[22:44] <jussi01> +1
[22:44] <JontheEchidna> c-c-c-c-combo breaker!
[22:45] <a|wen> so nateon dies ... and knights as well
[22:45] <Riddell> I feel that suppestion speaks to our condition
[22:45] <ScottK> Can I piggy back on this we drop kita2 also?  It's a Japanese IM app with even lower popcon than nateon.
[22:45] <Riddell> a|wen: poke me after the meeting I'll do the removal
[22:45] <a|wen> Riddell: i'll do that
[22:45] <ScottK> It's the last remaining rdepend for the KDE bindings
[22:45] <Riddell> ScottK: what does it use?
[22:45] <ScottK> I forget which one
[22:45] <nixternal> DaSkreech: a vote on what?
[22:45] <DaSkreech> and arts
[22:45] <ScottK> One of the ruby ones I thikn
[22:46] <Riddell> ScottK: ah yes, Japan, it would :)
[22:46] <Riddell> ScottK: I agree, I don't think we should support ruby-kde3 any more
[22:46] <DaSkreech> nixternal: kpackagekit as is or kpackagekit with UI changes or kpacakgekit with conffile fixes
[22:46] <ScottK> libkorundum0-ruby1.8
[22:46] <apachelogger> <3 japan
[22:46] <apachelogger> ScottK: yes, ruby it is
[22:46] <Riddell> let's move on
[22:46] <Riddell> Arby has a point on s-c-p-k
[22:46] <nixternal> DaSkreech: #2 and #3 :)
[22:47] <Arby> \o
[22:47] <Arby> basically this is about getting it ready for jaunty
[22:47] <nixternal> if #3 is complete that is fine, but don't ship a piece of junk
[22:47] <Arby> what we absolutely need to have
[22:47]  * nixternal goes back to work, call me if you need me from this point on :)
[22:47] <DaSkreech> nixternal: with a proposal for fixage of course. You can do that once off work :)
[22:47] <Arby> what is nice to have
[22:47] <seele> nixternal: when do you get off work? you've just created a council meeting :P
[22:48] <Arby> this is a list of features listed in the readme as still missing and where I've got to with them
[22:48] <Arby> http://paste.ubuntu.com/111016/
[22:48] <nixternal> I should be getting off work soon, but I am whicked busy, probably not for a few hours
[22:48] <Arby> currently I have 2 branches on the go
[22:48] <Tonio_> Lure: your point :)
[22:48] <Arby> stand alone lp:~rbirnie/system-config-printer/new_ui
[22:48] <seele> ok, ping us when you get in
[22:48] <Arby> systemsettings module lp:~kubuntu-members/system-config-printer/kcm-scpk
[22:48] <JontheEchidna> oh, that looks familiar
[22:48] <Arby> so the first question is
[22:49] <Arby> do we want to go with the standalone version again or push to get it into systemsettings?
[22:49] <Lure> digikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)
[22:49] <Arby> the standalone version works reasonably well
[22:49] <seele> Arby: i would like to see it in systemsettings but will it be much work?
[22:49] <JontheEchidna> Arby: pretty much the only thing keeping it from SS is that crash, right?
[22:49] <Tonio_> Lure: sorry one still pending point :)
[22:49] <JontheEchidna> as far as we know
[22:49] <seele> ah
[22:49] <Riddell> I hope to look at system settings intgration tomorrow
[22:49] <Tonio_> Arby: I'm all for systemsettings on my side
[22:49] <Lure> I think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now
[22:50] <Arby> JontheEchidna: that crash and the class inheritance
[22:50] <Arby> Riddell: that would be great
[22:50] <Lure> but kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...)
[22:50] <Arby> if we're going to get into systemsettings I'll need help
[22:50] <Tonio_> Lure: !! still discussing the printer stuff !! :)
[22:50] <Arby> I'm in over my head there :)
[22:50] <Lure> Tonio_: I see... ;-)
[22:50] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: we have both spckde and jockey somewhat there, but they both crash when they try to do dbus-y things
[22:51] <Arby> it breaks in ways I don't begin to understan
[22:51] <JontheEchidna> that too
[22:51] <Riddell> hmm, right, dbus
[22:51] <seele> what is spckde?
[22:51] <Riddell> s-c-p-k
[22:51] <Arby> system-config-printer-kde
[22:51] <Arby> it really needs a shorter name
[22:51] <seele> ah letters were in the wrong order there :)
[22:51] <JontheEchidna> kprinter2000
[22:51] <DaSkreech> scpk ?
[22:51] <Tonio_> Arby: kdeprint ?
[22:52] <DaSkreech> that's so 9 years ago
[22:52]  * Tonio_ hides
[22:52] <JontheEchidna> kprinter3000
[22:52] <JontheEchidna> :D
[22:52] <Arby> he
[22:52] <apachelogger> how
[22:52] <Tonio_> but why not in fact... kdeprint old fashion is dead, so.......
[22:52] <apachelogger> about
[22:52] <apachelogger> print
[22:52] <apachelogger> :P
[22:52] <seele> do we know why dbus is causing it to crash?
[22:52] <seele> and are waiting for a patch?
[22:52] <seele> or does someone have to look in to it?
[22:52] <Riddell> seele: no but I'll look at it tomorrow
[22:52] <seele> ok
[22:52] <Arby> so we're agreed we want it in system settings, good
[22:53] <seele> system settings contains everything so i'd like it in there
[22:53] <JontheEchidna> if possible
[22:53] <Arby> next which features do we absolutely need and which are nice to have?
[22:53] <Arby> I pasted a list up there ^^
[22:53] <seele> in the future we'll eventually need to address some of the utlities, but that wont be until jaunty+1/4.4
[22:53] <apachelogger> Arby: smb integration is pretty important for business use cases I suppose
[22:53] <DaSkreech> Systemsettings needs love
[22:54] <Arby> apachelogger: that would be my biggest concern
[22:54] <Arby> but again help needed
[22:54] <Riddell> Arby: driver download isn't a priority, I don't think there's any drivers to download
[22:54] <seele> SMB is lowest priority imo
[22:54] <Arby> if anybody who has a working samba printer could test it that would be good
[22:54] <a|wen> i'd say a printer options page
[22:54] <seele> access control page.. i think that could be low priority too, but other people might not agree
[22:55] <a|wen> is the most important
[22:55] <seele> yes, printer options page seems like the most reasonable and most useful
[22:55] <Tonio_> Arby: I can test at work, no problem
[22:55] <apachelogger> Arby: me too
[22:55] <Arby> seele: well access control is mostly done, needs testing
[22:55] <apachelogger> loads of smb printers there :D
[22:55] <seele> Arby: oh in that case.. :)
[22:55] <Arby> Tonio_: apachelogger that would be great
[22:55] <Riddell> I'll have a go at starting the options page tomorrow then
[22:56] <Tonio_> Arby: I'll make a test tomorrow morning and will let you know :)
[22:56] <Arby> apachelogger: Tonio_ I'll have to commit what I've got locally first to make it worthwhile
[22:56] <Arby> I'll do it after the meeting
[22:56] <Tonio_> Arby: please ping when ready so that we can test then :)
[22:57] <Arby> so, in summary
[22:57] <Arby> systemsettings integration and a job options page required for jaunty
[22:57] <JontheEchidna> if it was working, jockey would have the full functionality of the standalone kde and gtk clients
[22:57] <Arby> access control and samba browsing, nice to have
[22:57] <Arby> agreed?
[22:57] <JontheEchidna> +1
[22:57] <apachelogger> aye
[22:57] <Tonio_> yup
[22:58] <a|wen> +1
[22:58] <Arby> excellent
[22:58] <Arby> as a general point, any and all testing would be appreciated :)
[22:58] <yuriy> smb browsing would be nice
[22:58] <Arby> I'll try to put a package together soon and stick it in a ppa
[22:59]  * seele tries to stay away for technical talk..
[22:59] <a|wen> +1 to that as well :)
[22:59] <Arby> yuriy: it will arrive at somepoint :)
[22:59] <seele> printing yes +1 yay
[22:59] <Tonio_> Arby: is lan browsing on the long term plans ?
[23:00] <Arby> seele: if you wouldn't mind taking another look at the ui would be nice
[23:00] <Tonio_> Arby: that's something I really loved with kdeprint....
[23:00]  * apachelogger grabs the whip
[23:00] <Tonio_> s/browsing/scanning
[23:00] <apachelogger> lets move on :P
[23:00] <Arby> Tonio_: haven't thought about it yet :)
[23:00] <seele> Arby: sure.. send me screenshots.. i dont have jaunty set up anywhere atm
[23:00] <Riddell> Lure's item next
[23:00] <Lure> digikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)?
[23:00] <Arby> seele:  will do
[23:00] <Lure> I think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now
[23:00] <Lure> but kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...)
[23:00] <Tonio_> Arby: pretty usefull in corp environment :) but certainly not a priority, so for the long term maybe ;)
[23:00] <Riddell> Lure: just needs MIRs for those new dependencies
[23:01] <DaSkreech> Is kipi up to task for KDE4?
[23:01] <Lure> Riddell: new deps need to get in archive first ;-)
[23:01] <Tonio_> +1000 for kipi-plugins
[23:01] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: yup
[23:01] <apachelogger> kipi main
[23:01] <apachelogger> kipi on cd (improves gwenview as well)
[23:01] <alleeJaunty> Tonio_: browsing/scanning should be done via avahi.
[23:01] <apachelogger> digikam main
[23:01] <Riddell> Lure: are you able to package them or are you looking for volunteers to do it?
[23:01] <DaSkreech> apachelogger: I thought we were trying to save space :-P
[23:01] <apachelogger> digikam on CD (if possible spacewise)
[23:01]  * JontheEchidna shovels out driveway
[23:02] <Lure> lensfun is in Debian NEW, so I can just do 0ubuntu1 upload
[23:02] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: kipi is not that big is it?
[23:02] <Tonio_> alleeJaunty: requires zeroconf, not the same than scanning for an entire subnet on a specific port, imho
[23:02] <Lure> opencv needs packaging and help would be great (I am a bit rusty with new packages ;-))
[23:02] <apachelogger> Tonio_: what size does the almighty kipi-plugins package have?
[23:02] <Riddell> Lure: go for it
[23:02] <Tonio_> apachelogger: 4MB
[23:02] <apachelogger> that should fit on the CD I suppose ;-)
[23:03] <Tonio_> apachelogger: we also have to consider new libs coming with it :)
[23:03] <DaSkreech> 4 megs is Huuuuuuuge :)
[23:03] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: look at ooo :P
[23:03] <a|wen> if we get all the kde3 stuff to go away
[23:03] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: nothing compared to crap OOo... :)
[23:03] <Lure> Riddell: so no MIR needed for digikam/kipi-plugins, just for new depends?
[23:03] <DaSkreech> Yeah I know but Koffice isn't quite Killer yet
[23:03] <Riddell> Lure: correct
[23:04] <Lure> Riddell: then we can move them now (can you do it)? then we just take care for new deps later (when accepted in archive)
[23:04] <DaSkreech> we could ship Abiword >_<
[23:04] <Lure> we can start seeding kipi-plugins
[23:04] <Riddell> Lure: can do
[23:04] <seele> DaSkreech: ...
[23:04] <Tonio_> talking about digikam, it i to me a basic feature to be able to download cameras photos by default....
[23:04] <Tonio_> even windows xp does it...
[23:04] <DaSkreech> I keeed I keeeed
[23:04] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: digikampart?
[23:04] <Tonio_> as long as technically possible, I think we shoul ship with digikam
[23:04] <Lure> Tonio_: gwenview does not have this?
[23:04] <DaSkreech> Does camera:/ still work ?
[23:05] <Tonio_> Lure: not that I know of......
[23:05]  * Lure cannot recall
[23:05] <Tonio_> well, mass storage works, but not pptp
[23:05] <Tonio_> and lots of cameras are set to pptp only or by default
[23:05] <DaSkreech> Is that an upstream issue?
[23:05] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: no simply gwenview isn't designed for that yet
[23:05] <a|wen> camera:// still exists
[23:05] <apachelogger> well ... photography seems to be a popular hobby these days ... so we should stuff digikam on the CD if we have enough space left
[23:05] <Nightrose> mine and seele's cameras don't work in intrepid - major pita :/
[23:06] <Tonio_> do people know about camera:// ?
[23:06] <apachelogger> +1 on improved digikam handling
[23:06] <DaSkreech> I don't think that gwenview is supposed to do that at all
[23:06] <apachelogger> *digicam even :P
[23:06] <a|wen> Tonio_: possibly not though
[23:06] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: KDE should
[23:06] <Tonio_> Lure: is the viewer in the same package ? if so we should split not to dupe gwenview
[23:06] <yuriy> digikam on the cd if possible would be great
[23:06] <Tonio_> a|wen: :)
[23:07] <yuriy> it's one of the killer apps imo
[23:07] <Lure> Tonio_: showfoto is in separate package, but it is very small
[23:07] <Tonio_> Lure: ok... what are the doc size ?
[23:07] <Lure> Tonio_: no kde4 doc yet, but in the works
[23:07] <Tonio_> Lure: okay
[23:07] <Lure> Tonio_: and it is separate package, afair
[23:07] <Tonio_> Lure: and what is the packge size ?
[23:08] <Lure> Tonio_: 10 MB
[23:08] <Lure> + depends
[23:08] <Tonio_> Riddell: one we get k3b in we can get rid of kdelibs4 right ?
[23:08] <Riddell> openoffice needs to drop it to
[23:08] <Riddell> no KDE file open dialogue
[23:08] <alleeJaunty> Tonio_: showfoto is the worst name ever.  Editfoto would be much better for what the app is designed for
[23:09] <Tonio_> Riddell: yeah :( can't wait to ship with koffice2..... maybe one day...
[23:09] <Tonio_> alleeJaunty: true that :)
[23:09] <ScottK> Can that be like the java stuff where all the depends aren't shipped by default but if install it it works
[23:09] <DaSkreech> I almost recall reading an artcle that said that you could get OO.o to use the KDE file dialog
[23:09] <Lure> Riddell: just drop it - kde3 is new gnome - we do not want it anymore ;-)
[23:09] <ScottK> That being the ooo stuff
[23:09] <Riddell> ScottK: I don't know
[23:09] <apachelogger> Lure: lol
[23:09] <Riddell> but it can keep the crystal icons and Qt widgets ,just no file open dialogue
[23:09] <Tonio_> Riddell: kdelibs4c2a is 10MB = digikam
[23:10] <yuriy> I don't know if the kde integration is useful in OOo if it's kde3
[23:10] <Riddell> no KDE file open dialgoue
[23:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: considering digikam in that case looks possible right ?
[23:10] <Riddell> yes, let's ask calc if he can look into dropping kdelibs from openoffice
[23:10] <yuriy> it's extra confusing even, to have the completely separate set of bookmarks there
[23:10] <DaSkreech> yuriy: good point
[23:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: OOo depends on kde3... hum... I forgot that part.... sorry
[23:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: I was all at konversation/k3b replacement
[23:11] <Riddell> ACTION: move digikam and kipi to main, add to CDs, ask calc to drop kdelibs from openoffice
[23:11] <DaSkreech> What's a k3b replacement?
[23:11] <Riddell> trueg says he's going to get k3b back into shape
[23:11] <Lure> DaSkreech: wodim
[23:11]  * Lure hides
[23:12] <DaSkreech>  Sebastian is back in KDE swing would it be possibly to have a discussion to see a timeline for K3b 4 KDE4 ?
[23:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: is OOo depending on kde3 or 4 libs right now ?
[23:12] <Lure> Tonio_: kde3
[23:12] <Tonio_> Lure: okay
[23:12] <DaSkreech> There is a K3B KDE4 beta right ?
[23:12] <Riddell> yes
[23:12]  * ScottK needs to run.
[23:12] <Riddell> let's move on
[23:12] <Lure> DaSkreech: yes: does not work for me, but Tonio_ has some success
[23:13] <DaSkreech> ok I'm fine with that
[23:13] <ScottK> No opinion on KGet or Kopete tabs, but I do want stickers.
[23:13] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: packaging in the work on my side, tests are not that good on the dvd side :)
[23:13] <Riddell> Tonio_ wants to discuss kget
[23:13] <Tonio_> yep
[23:13] <Tonio_> I personnaly consider ktorrent UI a nightmare
[23:13] <Tonio_> and I pretty love kget as a download manager for konqueror
[23:13] <Tonio_> is integrates like a charm
[23:13]  * Nightrose likes ktorrent tbh
[23:13] <DaSkreech> I haven't used kget for torrents I'll assume the UI isn't a dream though
[23:14] <Riddell> I like KDE's normal downloads
[23:14] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: bah UI is a standard download manager UI :)
[23:14] <Tonio_> simple and efficient
[23:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: yeah, but no pause, queue, restart and so on
[23:14] <DaSkreech> How does it work feature wise?
[23:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: a download manager has a lot of advantages
[23:14] <Riddell> ug, it still has that weird drop target thing in the middle of the screen
[23:14] <Tonio_> Riddell: is disabled by default
[23:15] <Riddell> just popped up here
[23:15] <Tonio_> Riddell: just an option like with all download managers
[23:15] <ScottK> OK.  I do have an opinion about KGet.  I don't like that drop target thing either.
[23:15] <ScottK> See you all.
[23:15] <Tonio_> Riddell: can make is off by default easilly
[23:15] <Riddell> hmm, yet another systray icon
[23:15] <Tonio_> Riddell: kget is very similar to any osx or windows standard download manager, and people are used to those softwares
[23:15] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: plasmoid? :)
[23:15] <Nightrose> Tonio_: so what do you actually propose?
[23:15] <yuriy> I haven't used kget, but I never saw the point of it
[23:16] <Tonio_> Nightrose: to test kget and when people have an opinion rediscuss this :)
[23:16] <apachelogger> Tonio_: those are not individual apps
[23:16]  * apachelogger doesn't like the concept of external download manager
[23:16] <Nightrose> this being what?
[23:16] <apachelogger> it's confusing
[23:16] <Riddell> can't work out how to get it to start a torrent
[23:16] <Tonio_> apachelogger: well it's konqueror integration is really good
[23:16] <Nightrose> if kget by default?
[23:16] <apachelogger> Riddell: just open one
[23:16] <Nightrose> replacing ktorrent?
[23:16] <apachelogger> Tonio_: there is no integratoin
[23:16] <Riddell> apachelogger: how?
[23:16] <apachelogger> Riddell: file - open I suppose?
[23:17] <apachelogger> Tonio_: konqui just throws the files at kget
[23:17] <Tonio_> apachelogger: hu ??
[23:17] <Riddell> apachelogger: there is no such option
[23:17] <apachelogger> kget does with them whatever it wants
[23:17] <apachelogger> so it is an external download manager and appears as independent app
[23:17] <Tonio_> apachelogger: that's the purpose of a download manager
[23:17] <apachelogger> which in my opinion got limited use case and target audience
[23:17] <Tonio_> apachelogger: my browser can crash and my downloads are going fine...
[23:17] <Nightrose> +1
[23:17] <apachelogger> Riddell: no clue then
[23:18] <yuriy> -1 if it would take up extra CD space
[23:18] <yuriy> otherwise I'd have to try it
[23:18] <DaSkreech> yuriy: Well the point is to remove ktorrent
[23:18] <apachelogger> Tonio_: then the kio stuff should be fixed that the slaves are not bound to the konqueror instance but something more generic kded for example
[23:18] <JontheEchidna> kded dies whenever you update packages
[23:18] <apachelogger> kdeinit then
[23:18] <seele> so are there two things we're discussing? including kget and not including ktorrent?
[23:18] <a|wen> yuriy: seems you are gaining 6 mb by the change
[23:18] <apachelogger> if that goes down you are boned anyway :P
[23:19] <Riddell> doesn't sounds like anyone is convinced at kget
[23:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: just choose save as and kget gets the file
[23:20] <Riddell> I don't see the advantage for file downloads and it's not intuitive to me for torrent downloads
[23:20] <apachelogger> Riddell, Tonio_: I think we should discuss this at next meeting .. giving people time to take a look at kget
[23:20] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: I'll flip it what are the arguments for not including ktorrent ?
[23:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: I agree it's a different concept.... torrents are seen are standard downloads (opera does that too)
[23:20] <seele> i'm dubious that the file manager can provide the necessary information and functionality torrent users are used to
[23:20] <Nightrose> +1 seele
[23:21] <yuriy> Tonio_: which actually sounds like a good idea to me for a default
[23:21] <seele> it's not as simple as enabling a torrent and just letting it run
[23:21] <a|wen> but i'd personally much rather have ktorrent ... seems more intuitive to me
[23:21] <seele> you care about having information about the seeds, which pieces youve downloaded, throttling, etc.
[23:21] <JontheEchidna> ktorrent++
[23:21] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: well I'd like a download manger for konqueror, and since it also does torrents....
[23:21] <seele> Tonio_: i think we should evaluate kget as a download manager only
[23:21] <seele> not as a replacement for ktorrent
[23:22] <seele> if it happens to get included and it does torrents too.. good for it
[23:22] <Tonio_> seele: I don't care which pieces are downloaded as long as it's not finished... :)
[23:22] <a|wen> +1 seele
[23:22] <Nightrose> Tonio_: for videos it can matter
[23:22] <Nightrose> you might be able to watch the beginning
[23:22] <Tonio_> seele: and I'm not that a fan of the search part of ktorrent, really confusing
[23:22] <Tonio_> Nightrose: that's a good point, indeed
[23:22] <yuriy> ok tried out kget and i'm confused
[23:23] <seele> how big is kget?
[23:23] <Tonio_> well, I propose people to try it as a download manager, and rediscus this next time
[23:23] <yuriy> where is my download?
[23:23] <JontheEchidna> +1 on rediscuss
[23:23] <a|wen> seele: ~ 3,5M
[23:23] <Tonio_> about benefits of download malager and so on
[23:23] <Tonio_> yuriy: kget in the systray
[23:23] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: how do I do plugins for Kget ?
[23:23] <yuriy> also i prefer the plasma notification things over some extra window
[23:23] <Riddell> yuriy++
[23:24] <rgreening> hey. sry about being late. lappy issues
[23:24] <apachelogger> +1
[23:24] <yuriy> the download manager that always pops up is one of the things I don't like about firefox
[23:24] <apachelogger> rgreening: hola
[23:24] <Tonio_> yuriy: I agree on that point, but I think to remember that's on kget schedule
[23:24] <jjesse> +1 to yuriy
[23:24] <Nightrose> yuriy: you can use allinonesidebar for that
[23:24] <Nightrose> works good for me
[23:24] <Riddell> I'll try kget for now but I'm sceptical
[23:24] <jjesse> i had issues trying to download torretns with kget, and found ktorrent was just much easier
[23:24] <Riddell> we should move on
[23:24]  * apachelogger thinks the only sane approach to downloads is what google chrome does :P
[23:25] <Tonio_> I tend to agree my mother wouldn't need this kind of tool on the other hand
[23:25] <Riddell> Tonio_: tabs in kopete?
[23:25] <Tonio_> Riddell: lots of people don't have super bandwidth
[23:25] <Tonio_> Riddell: consider they can download part of an iso every day for example, that can be usefull
[23:25]  * DaSkreech likes tabs. I don't know Ubuntu guidelines or KDE HIB well enough.
[23:25] <Tonio_> let's move on
[23:25] <Tonio_> it was discussed and decided in the past to activate tabs in kopete by default
[23:25] <jjesse> what's next on the agenda?
[23:25] <Tonio_> so I did again with kde4
[23:25] <Riddell> tabs in kopete
[23:26] <Tonio_> but I received criticisms :)
[23:26] <DaSkreech> jjesse: tabs in Kopete
[23:26]  * Nightrose uses tabs in kopeet
[23:26] <jjesse> ah wasn't paying attention
[23:26] <jjesse> sry
[23:26] <seele> as opposed to opening new chats in separate windows?
[23:26] <DaSkreech> Any examples of critique ?
[23:26] <a|wen> seele: yes
[23:26] <yuriy> my 2c - I don't use tabs in pidgin
[23:26] <Nightrose> seele: jep
[23:26] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: that sucks !!
[23:26] <Tonio_> kind of things like that :)
[23:26] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: That's what I thought
[23:26] <Tonio_> strange since nobody complained with kde3.... but that's it :)
[23:26] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: yep ;)
[23:26] <seele> what is the kopete default?
[23:26] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: I propose that it's turned off for the betas and see what the response it
[23:27] <seele> upstream default
[23:27] <DaSkreech> is
[23:27] <Tonio_> seele: no tabs
[23:27] <a|wen> seele: 1 chat 1 window
[23:27] <apachelogger> seele: new window per chat
[23:27] <DaSkreech> No tabs
[23:27] <seele> hmm
[23:27] <Tonio_> seele: but that's very msn....
[23:27] <Riddell> I can't get it to do tabs
[23:27] <DaSkreech> I currently have it grouped by protocol which Seems to give me management as well as sanity
[23:27] <a|wen> +1 for tabs here
[23:27] <Tonio_> seele: most IM do have tabs by default
[23:27] <JontheEchidna> +1 for keeping tabs
[23:27] <a|wen> Riddell: it is under behaviour
[23:28] <DaSkreech> How about we turn it off for the betas and see the response
[23:28] <a|wen> (the option placement is pretty counter-intuitive imo)
[23:28] <apachelogger> having used the tab approach I have the feeling it gets in my way most of the time, though I am not exactly much of a im user anyway :)
[23:28] <rgreening> KDE has tabs by dfalt in most apps, +1 for being consistant
[23:28] <DaSkreech>  I'm thinking that the people who don't like tabs are being vocal but the majority do like it
[23:28] <seele> DaSkreech: that doesnt guarantee we will see a response
[23:28] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: we had it turned off for intrepid
[23:28] <Tonio_> a|wen: yep, very bad to set :)
[23:28] <seele> DaSkreech: and if they are upgrades, then the previous settings will hold
[23:28] <DaSkreech> seele: I know but I'm betting we will
[23:28] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: and did recive _no_ whatsoever response
[23:28] <apachelogger> like no one noticed the tabs were gone :P
[23:29] <DaSkreech> apachelogger: So people didn't say anything about not having tabs but were quite vocal about having them?
[23:29] <Tonio_> seele: hum no since that's in KDS, so changing must change for most people, but as you said, they may just not complain
[23:29] <apachelogger> DaSkreech: yes
[23:29] <DaSkreech> That's interesting
[23:30] <DaSkreech> I would guess no tabs then
[23:30] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: a couple did, including you :) not the all earth came to me complaining :)
[23:30] <apachelogger> well, the amount of feedback is not really something to bind a decision on IMHO
[23:30] <DaSkreech> apachelogger: and this was without window grouping ?
[23:30]  * yuriy thinks a forum poll would be nice
[23:30] <Tonio_> my point is that most kde apps have tabs
[23:30] <JontheEchidna> consistency ftw
[23:30] <seele> yes they do
[23:30] <Tonio_> most IM have tabs by default (pidgin, adium on osx, trillian on windows, YIM....)
[23:30] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: I agree that tabs are better for many reasons
[23:30] <JontheEchidna> gnome3 is all about tabs anyway :P
[23:30] <Tonio_> no tabs is the very msn way to work, only
[23:30] <DaSkreech> but if people freak outat them ...:-/
[23:31] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: our users are used to them for 3 years now :)
[23:31] <Nightrose> vote?
[23:31] <DaSkreech> JontheEchidna: by the end of Gran Canria We will have clocks with tabs on them
[23:31] <Tonio_> and msn users..... still use msn on windows :)
[23:31] <Riddell> ooh I think I got it working
[23:31] <DaSkreech> Ha ha :)
[23:31] <Nightrose> hehe
[23:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: what ? msn ? :)
[23:31] <Riddell> tabs
[23:31] <DaSkreech> tabs
[23:31] <Nightrose> so who is for keeping tabs?
[23:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: AH !
[23:31] <Lure> +1 for tabs
[23:31]  * Nightrose is
[23:31] <JontheEchidna> +1 for tabs
[23:31] <a|wen> +1 for tabs
[23:31] <Tonio_> +1 for tabs
[23:31] <seele> +1 tabs
[23:32] <DaSkreech> I'm for it in principle
[23:32] <Riddell> it still has two windows though which seems to lose the point
[23:32] <alleeJaunty> +1 for tabs
[23:32] <DaSkreech> Riddell: Buddy list doesn't cont :-P
[23:32] <DaSkreech> count
[23:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: the contact one and the chat one, as it always used to :)
[23:32] <seele> Riddell: kopete is a service app, the main window disappears
[23:32] <apachelogger> Riddell: better than 5 I supppose ;-)
[23:32] <Lure> Riddell: ++ on that - would also like to have main window as tab
[23:32] <Riddell> ok we seem to be in favour of tabs
[23:33] <Riddell> what's next
[23:33] <Riddell> rickspencer3 wanted to say hi
[23:33] <JontheEchidna> \o
[23:33] <apachelogger> o/
[23:33] <Lure> rickspencer3: hi!
[23:33] <Nightrose> hi rickspencer3
[23:33] <seele> that's a strange way of saying hello
[23:33] <rickspencer3> hi!
[23:33] <DaSkreech> Lure: Eh? buddy lista as a tab?
[23:33] <a|wen> hi rickspencer3
[23:33]  * seele waves
[23:33] <seele> greeting by proxy
[23:33] <Riddell> rickspencer3 is the new manager of Canonical's desktop team
[23:33] <DaSkreech> Hoorah!
[23:33] <Nightrose> aha!
[23:33] <Lure> DaSkreech: I would love it, but it is not available
[23:33] <jjesse> yay
[23:34] <rickspencer3> seele: I was waiting my turn
[23:34] <rickspencer3> :)
[23:34] <DaSkreech> Lure: this is KDE there must be a checkbox somewhere :)
[23:34] <seele> rickspencer3: we're not as organized in our meetings as yours
[23:34] <rickspencer3> I'll be pushier next time ;)
[23:34] <Nightrose> tell us a little about yourself rickspencer3?
[23:34] <rickspencer3> ooh
[23:34] <DaSkreech> Lure: actaully Kopete buddy list is KDE3 might be an issue
[23:34] <rickspencer3> well, this is like my 8th week at Canonical
[23:34]  * apachelogger kicks DaSkreech
[23:34] <rickspencer3> So I'm still learning the ropes here
[23:34] <jjesse> there are no ropes here
[23:35] <rickspencer3> my background in software started with usability, before I got into program management and then engineering management
[23:35]  * DaSkreech puts a sticker on the footprint
[23:35] <Nightrose> welcome then :)
[23:35] <rickspencer3> I'm just psyched about the job, and want to learn as much as I can about Kubuntu now
[23:36] <Nightrose> hehe good start
[23:36] <jjesse> all you need to know is it is the best
[23:36] <rickspencer3> It's really a remarkable community and an awesome product
[23:36]  * DaSkreech prods nixternal to provide docs
[23:36] <Riddell> so if people have question or comments about stuff canonical is doing, rick is a good chap to go to
[23:36] <Tonio_> rickspencer3: :)
[23:36]  * DaSkreech does
[23:36] <DaSkreech> but post stickers
[23:36] <rickspencer3> Hi Tonio_, we met at UDS, no?
[23:36] <Tonio_> rickspencer3: absolutly :)
[23:36] <rickspencer3> same with seele, I believe
[23:36]  * jjesse thinks it is a  good idea DaSkreech didn't rmeember he does docs for kubuntu as well
[23:36] <seele> rickspencer3: i was definitely there
[23:36] <seele> hehe
[23:36] <jjesse> i was there as well
[23:36] <rickspencer3> very nice
[23:37] <Tonio_> rickspencer3: nice to see your real interest in kde and kubuntu :)
[23:37]  * Nightrose wasn't there :(
[23:37]  * JontheEchidna wasn't at UDS sadly :(
[23:37] <DaSkreech> jjesse: I did but I blame nixternal
[23:37]  * nhandler wasn't there
[23:37] <Riddell> as was nixternal and rgreening
[23:37] <Riddell> Nightrose, JontheEchidna: next time!
[23:37] <Nightrose> yay
[23:37] <rickspencer3> that was my first week at Canonical, so I kind of blocked out most of it :)
[23:37] <Nightrose> ;-)
[23:37] <jjesse> that's another rickspencer3 needs to learn, "when in doubt blame nixternal "
[23:37] <apachelogger> hehe
[23:37] <rickspencer3> but I mostly blame nixternal for that
[23:37] <jjesse> nice
[23:37] <apachelogger> \o/
[23:37] <Nightrose> you leran quickly rickspencer3 ;-)
[23:38] <Nightrose> *learn
[23:38] <JontheEchidna> !nixternal
[23:38] <jjesse> awesome, changed it to windows7
[23:38] <Riddell> last agenda item is about stickers
[23:38]  * jjesse cackles
[23:38] <Nightrose> what?
[23:38] <Nightrose> mirc?
[23:38] <Nightrose> sinde when does he do mirc?
[23:38] <Nightrose> *since
[23:38] <seele> thanks rickspencer3
[23:38] <yuriy> for those interested in tabs stats: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1053450
[23:38]  * nhandler wants a sticker
[23:38] <yuriy> so, stickers?
[23:38] <Tonio_> JontheEchidna: I'm probably a bigger windows lover than nixternal will ever be ;)
[23:38] <yuriy> what sort of stickers are we talking about?
[23:39] <DaSkreech> I have no clue what this is about but +4.2 stickers
[23:39]  * Lure wants stickers for new thinkpad I get in 2 weeks
[23:39]  * apachelogger hands rickspencer3 a basket filled with welcome cookies
[23:39] <Tonio_> JontheEchidna: and that's not a joke :)
[23:39] <Riddell> the marketing chap at Canonical says he can send out stickers to active Kubuntu people as a wee thank you
[23:39] <Riddell> the stickers are on shop.canonical.com
[23:39] <rgreening> kubu stickers == awesum
[23:39] <DaSkreech> Tonio_: You are? I blame nixternal for that
[23:39] <Riddell> so e-mail me your postal address with STICKER in the header and I'll pass that on
[23:39]  * rickspencer3 slides a cookie out, slides basket under desk without sharing
[23:39] <seele> rickspencer3 is now uninvited!
[23:39] <Tonio_> DaSkreech: haha, I used to be a microsoft MCSE and active directory sysadmin :) I still use windows xp/vista and 7 too :)
[23:39] <apachelogger> ah
[23:39] <apachelogger> no worries
[23:40]  * apachelogger bot tons of cookies today
[23:40] <jjesse> yay i want me a sticker
[23:40] <yuriy> these? http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=418
[23:40] <alleeJaunty> rickspencer3: when there is backend + gnome/kde frontend, is it one of your task to organize that both frontends get the same love?
[23:40] <Arby> woo stickers :)
[23:40] <Nightrose> stickers rock
[23:40]  * a|wen is all for stickers
[23:40] <Tonio_> same with me, all +1 for the stickers :)
[23:41] <rickspencer3> alleeJaunty: deep question
[23:41]  * nhandler sent his email
[23:41] <Riddell> yuriy: yes
[23:41] <yuriy> another thing on stickers
[23:41]  * DaSkreech rolls in stickers and nomnomnoms cookies
[23:41] <yuriy> I don't know what the plans are currently on reviving the aluminum case badge project
[23:41] <apachelogger> Riddell: what mail address should we send to?
[23:41] <yuriy> but for if and when that happens
[23:41] <Riddell> apachelogger: jriddell@ubuntu .com
[23:41] <jjesse> all of them
[23:41] <apachelogger> okies
[23:41] <yuriy> I'd like to know if there is significant interest in kubuntu ones
[23:41] <JontheEchidna> aiee
[23:42] <JontheEchidna> quassel just memleak'd on me :(
[23:42] <jjesse> i want
[23:42] <JontheEchidna> 40% of 640 MB
[23:42] <alleeJaunty> rickspencer3: yeah, we miss someone that keeps an eye on all desktop flavours ;)
[23:42] <apachelogger> EgS: ^
[23:42] <Arby> yuriy +1 from me on case badges
[23:42] <apachelogger> EgS: go fix your code :P
[23:42] <nhandler> Riddell: I sent to whatever address the Contact this User feature on LP used
[23:42] <yuriy> so if your LoCo is interested, please email me
[23:43] <Lure> Riddell<EMAIL_ADDRESS>also works, right?
[23:43] <yuriy> we need a large order in order for it to be worth it and to get the price down
[23:43] <Riddell> Lure: I belive so
[23:43] <Riddell> any other agenda items?
[23:43] <yuriy> large order as in thousands
[23:43] <apachelogger> blizzz: read what yuriy said?
[23:43] <apachelogger> Riddell: oh, yes, I think
[23:43] <DaSkreech> Pepper rickspencer3 ?
[23:44] <Riddell> I'm in berlin next week at the canonical team sprint, so probably not around as much in the evenings as usual
[23:44] <blizzz> apachelogger: i? when?
[23:44] <DaSkreech> rickspencer3: You are the manager of the Desktop Team?
[23:44] <apachelogger> blizzz: backlog
[23:44] <rickspencer3> DaSkreech: yes
[23:44] <DaSkreech> What is the objective of the Desktop Team ?
[23:44] <Riddell> DaSkreech: the Canonical Desktop Team (as opposed to Ubuntu one)
[23:44] <rickspencer3> I'm sure Riddell shudders every time he hears me say it too
[23:44] <Lure> rickspencer3: like "a boss of Riddell"?
[23:45] <Lure> rickspencer3: then we have to talk...
[23:45] <DaSkreech> :-D
[23:45]  * Lure hides
[23:45] <apachelogger> ^_^
[23:45] <yuriy> ok, i'm off
[23:45] <DaSkreech> bye yuriy
[23:45] <seele> 'night yuriy
[23:45] <nhandler> Bye yuriy
[23:45] <Tonio_> Lure: haha :)
[23:45] <apachelogger> one thing: _EVERYONE_ who isn't native english speaker pretty pretty please install Jaunty (if you install Jaunty) in your native language!
[23:45] <Riddell> rickspencer3 isn't the technical lead by the way so don't go baffling him with code questions
[23:45] <DaSkreech> Get a cookie
[23:45] <Riddell> apachelogger: good idea
[23:45] <DaSkreech> No no code questions :)
[23:45] <rickspencer3> feel free to ask me coding questions, I'm sure I can give you wrong information
[23:45] <DaSkreech> Just wanted to get a handle for what he's managing
[23:45] <blizzz> apachelogger: what is aluminum case badge? however, since our target is becoming loco...
[23:46] <apachelogger> I will upload 4.2.0's l10n packages within the next 2 days, so they will be in the next language pack updates
[23:46] <apachelogger> We should prevent issues like the ones we had with intrepid at all costs
[23:46] <Riddell> meeting over I think, thanks all, back to #kubuntu-devel
[23:46]  * Nightrose waves
[23:47] <Riddell> blizzz: that was yuriy's thing
[23:47] <a|wen> wohoo
[23:47] <rickspencer3> DaSkreech: I didn't want to blow off your question, we can hop on #kubuntu-devel ofr a few minutes
[23:47] <rickspencer3> if you want
[23:47] <blizzz> yuriy: same question on you
[23:47] <DaSkreech> Sure
[23:47] <alleeJaunty> rickspencer3: see you there


[11:27] <jaddi27> sagaci, Quantal translations are now open!
[11:28] <sagaci> yup
[11:29] <sagaci> gcc 9k strings
[11:29] <jaddi27> oh, fun
[11:29] <jaddi27> It would be nice if the old ones rolled across, because most are the same
[11:30] <sagaci> yep kubuntu packages look like they're removed, except for the -docs
[11:35] <jaddi27> kubuntu is all upstream now, which is probably better
[11:35] <jaddi27> though I was surprised that kubuntu was moving to universal
[11:35] <md_5> hm
[11:37] <jaddi27> sagaci, is there anything lined up for the meeting this week? Would you like me to send a reminder email out?
[11:38] <sagaci> go ahead
[11:38] <md_5|away> I havent gotten anything on the mailing list recently
[11:38] <md_5|away> I think windows live may be blocking it
[11:39] <md_5|away> nope nothing in spam
[11:40] <jaddi27> I haven't seen anything that should have come through, so I don't think you are missing anything


[15:34] <tdr112> afternoon all
[15:40] <airurando> afternoon everyone
[15:40] <airurando> who is going to the porter house tomorrow evening?
[15:41] <ebel> i am
[15:41] <airurando> good stuff ebel.
[15:41] <ebel> and tom
[15:41] <airurando> see you there hopefully
[15:43] <tdr112> i am , i will be meeting people in tog at 6.30 / 7 and leaving tog at 7.30 to go to the pub
[15:44] <airurando> hope to see you there also tdr112.
[15:44]  * airurando hopes he is not delayed at work.
[15:44] <czajkowski> TAKE PHTOOSO!!!!!
[15:44] <czajkowski> PHOTOS!
[15:44] <czajkowski> LOTS OF EM PEOPLE
[15:44] <czajkowski> :)
[15:44]  * tdr112 does not have a photo deivce
[15:45] <airurando> czajkowski I will try
[15:45] <airurando> I'm hopeless in bad light though.
[15:45] <airurando> can never get camera nor phone to focus.
[15:46] <tdr112> we need to send airurando to a few classes
[15:48] <airurando> tdr112: thats one idea.
[15:49] <airurando> alternative we need to get you a photo capturing device.
[15:49] <ebel> get a phone
[16:44] <airurando> has anyone looked at the list of attendees for wednesdays meetup?
[16:45] <airurando> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/1030/detail/
[16:45] <airurando> impressive
[16:46] <slashtom> very good
[16:46] <tdr112> wow
[16:46] <tdr112> this is going to be great
[16:47] <moylan> what's the attending v turnup rate usually?
[16:47] <tdr112> 5 on a good night
[16:48] <moylan> oh well.  fingers crossed!
[16:48] <tdr112> some big names on the list
[16:49] <czajkowski> :)
[16:49] <czajkowski> have fun folks
[16:50] <moylan> and take pictures!
[16:50] <czajkowski> indeed
[16:50] <czajkowski> see
[16:50] <czajkowski> :)
[16:53] <airurando> just going to send a reminder mail to the list about this.
[16:53] <airurando> I was gobsmacked also when I had a look :)
[16:54] <tdr112> czajkowski: jump on a plane and come over a week early
[16:55] <czajkowski> eh no
[16:58] <tdr112> :(
[16:58] <tdr112> your no fun
[17:09] <airurando> mail sent
[17:10] <airurando> I do hope we have a good turnout from our side.
[17:11] <czajkowski> nods just mingle and say hi
[17:13] <tdr112> we should have 4 or 5 from  our side
[17:14] <czajkowski> cool


[12:23] <xnox> vorlon:  Eickmeyer:  i'm not sure how Kubuntu Focus & OEM laptop is a thing => because linux-oem-* are only certified and supported for Ubuntu Desktop; not any other flavours, by the canonical oem teams.
[17:20] <xnox> also not sure about installing oem kernel flavour, i thought that was limited to the GTK ubiquity frontend, unless it got enabled for Kubuntu ubiquity too by somebody.
[17:23] <juliank> xnox: Kubuntu has their own OEM relations, https://kfocus.org/
[17:24] <juliank> it's entirely separate from ubuntu oem efforts
[17:44] <xnox> i have so many questions
[17:46] <xnox> juliank:  if that is not using ubuntu stock kernels, i'm not sure i care.