[00:48] <snap-l> jcastro_: Going to make it tomorrow?
[01:34] <snap-l> http://blackcirclerecords.bandcamp.com/album/well-live-on-songs-and-hope-instead <- This gives me the sad
[12:58] <snap-l> Took the cat in for her spaying today.
[12:59] <snap-l> House seems quiet without her.
[12:59] <rick_h> hah
[13:25] <jcastro_> snap-l: I should be there
[13:26] <brousch> For the spaying? You are a true friend
[13:27] <jcastro_> hah
[13:33] <rick_h> lol, man discovers usb3 http://goo.gl/1kjX4
[13:35] <rick_h> and crap, the perfectly crafted rick_h link bait is down :( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4776859
[13:48] <brousch> Down?
[13:48] <brousch> Ah, I see
[13:48] <rick_h> original site was down
[13:49] <rick_h> and @#$#@ python libaries without any docs on their website
[13:49]  * rick_h grumbles and branches it down locally to see how the #@$#$ to use it at all
[13:54] <brousch> It's obvious!
[14:06] <brousch> rick_h: I got confused at the end of the USB3 article. Then I noticed it was on r.bmark, and the comment authors were getting stripped off
[14:07] <rick_h> brousch: yea, the comments on the coding horror aren't parsed well
[14:07] <rick_h> they're supposed to get removed on sites so I'll have to debug that
[14:07] <brousch> heh
[14:11] <jrwren> that usb3 article makes me want more fast drives. I hate slow usb flash memoires.
[14:12] <rick_h> yea, <3 usb3
[14:12] <rick_h> I wish these came in usb3 http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Cruzer-Flash-Drive-SDCZ33-016G-B35/dp/B005FYNSZA/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1352815941&sr=8-15&keywords=sandisk
[14:13] <jrwren> why those?
[14:13] <brousch> tiny
[14:13] <jrwren> oh, size.
[14:13] <jrwren> nice.
[14:14] <rick_h> yea, that kind of 'always leave it in' kind of nice size
[14:14] <brousch> I  have a 32GB HP that's about the size of a quarter
[14:14] <brousch> Basically 2x the size of a usb male end
[14:15] <jrwren> if you are going to leave it in all the time, why not just use your internal storage?
[14:15] <rick_h> because it's off device and you can swap it out
[14:15] <brousch> USB2 though
[14:15] <rick_h> rsync to second drive. be able to pull it out at a conference and swap files, etc
[14:17] <brousch> hah http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0SF0BP6766&Tpk=usb3
[14:18] <rick_h> heh yea bigger than either ssd I have in my laptop
[14:19]  * snap-l likes his USB3 drive
[14:19] <snap-l> Though it's just for backups
[14:53] <snap-l> Reminder: MUG meeting tonight, featuring the Ubuntu MI Loco (that's you all)
[14:54] <brousch> I don't feel featured
[14:55] <snap-l> brousch: You're full featured.
[14:57] <brousch> I am fully functional
[15:29] <jjesse> can someone explain to me the problems that Matthew Garrett is posting to his blog about Hex Code and it be rude or offensive to people?
[15:29] <jjesse> i see them via Planet Ubuntu and not quite sure if I should care or not
[15:30] <rick_h> I don't see Garrett on the planet blog list
[15:30] <rick_h> so no idea, must have missed all this
[15:30] <jjesse> wrong name sorry
[15:30] <jrwren> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/
[15:30] <jjesse> yeah that one
[15:31] <rick_h> oh, that was a while ago
[15:31] <jjesse> he just posted about VMWare being as bad as Microsoft
[15:32] <jrwren> at least babefeel is gender neutral. b16boob5 and 0boob135 is not
[15:32] <rick_h> so yea, looks like they've got 'babe feel' as a constant
[15:32] <jjesse> should i be offended?
[15:33] <rick_h> well it's hostile to the other gender when the code base has things like this
[15:33] <rick_h> you're supposed to pretend your a female programmer working on this codebase running into these
[15:33] <jjesse> oh
[15:34] <jrwren> except that a female wrote babefeel in the vmware code base. I'm not sure if she was thinking about brad pitt or fabio when she did so.
[15:36] <jjesse> so i have to make sure i don't offend any race, gender, religion in my code now?
[15:36] <jrwren> no, you don't have to.
[15:36] <jrwren> if you want to be an asshole, you are free to do so.
[15:36] <jrwren> we won't like you.
[15:37] <jcastro_> smoser: you going to mug tonight?
[15:37] <jrwren> and in this channel we ask that you follow the ubuntu CoC
[15:37] <jcastro_> jrwren: how about you?
[15:37] <jrwren> jcastro_: i am not.
[15:38] <jjesse> i understand the code of contact and all that
[15:39] <jjesse> i guess i just wonder how far this can go
[15:39] <rick_h> https://plus.google.com/109177818181860045889/posts is female?
[15:39] <jrwren> jjesse: please expand. tell me about how going too far is bad :)
[15:39]  * rick_h is confused
[15:40] <jrwren> rick_h: i was j/k
[15:40] <jjesse> ok do we have to take into account all religious views?
[15:40] <rick_h> jrwren: well @#$#@ I just spent the last bit going through the history and searching for this guy
[15:40] <jjesse> that might exist
[15:40] <jrwren> rick_h: lols, sorry
[15:40] <jrwren> jjesse: only ones that sane people care about. Trash scientology all you want.
[15:42] <rick_h> jjesse: it's all about your code. If you want to potentially have someone get pissed and not work on the code then whatever
[15:42] <rick_h> but honestly, it's like the conferences all doing the CoC, Ubuntu CoC.
[15:42] <rick_h> if you want all types to participate you've got to choke down the PC rulebook
[15:43] <jrwren> Be Excellent To Each Other.
[15:43] <rick_h> even in code
[15:43] <jrwren> certainly in code too.
[15:44] <jrwren> code is a tool for communicating ideas with the side effect that is makes machines do something. write it so.
[15:44] <_stink_> and ultimately your speech/code is not protected from anger, scrutiny, and other bad reactions from others.
[15:44] <_stink_> the 1st amendment only protects you from the government.
[15:44] <_stink_> not from others, whether acting fairly or unfairly.
[15:45] <smoser> jcastro_, i am.
[15:45] <jrwren> that is right. I am free to irrationally hate on oracle and sun over teh same things which I don't hate on them when done by others.  #FREEDOME!!!!!
[15:48] <jjesse> but the beauty is that most of the time you could change my code to make it unoffensive right?
[15:49] <jjesse> like i accidentally offend people who believe in Goats as Gods then that person could change it
[15:49] <jjesse> assuming its open source
[15:50] <jrwren> yes.
[15:51] <jrwren> there are accidents and then there are just immature stupidity.
[15:51] <jrwren> the community in general is fighting against immature stupidity
[15:51] <jjesse> but whose definition of immature stupidity?
[15:52] <krondor> jrwren: that is indeed a fight that will be neverending: RTFM
[15:52] <jjesse> look i'm not trying to come across as a jackass i'm just trying to figure this out
[15:52] <jrwren> krondor: what do you mean?
[15:52] <jrwren> jjesse: the communities definition of immature stupidity.
[15:53] <jjesse> but once again you have to take into consideration every community definition of immature stupidity
[15:53] <jrwren> the global community.
[15:53] <krondor> jrwren I mean that you will always have members of a community that do not gel with more sensitive members
[15:53] <jrwren> krondor: certainly true.
[15:53] <jjesse> too me it seems that reddit has a definition of immaturity and stupidity than most Ubuntu channels i frequent
[15:53] <jrwren> jjesse: depends on which subreddit :)
[15:54] <jjesse> jrwren, thats my point exactly do i have to take into consideration every single subreddit that may exist or may exist sometime in the future for figuring out if my variable might offend someone
[15:54] <jjesse> take it to the extreme
[15:54] <krondor> jjesse it's obviously abstract, even in legal systems you see courts struggle around 'what would a reasonable person' type things.
[15:55] <jjesse> what if Statanic Ubuntu or Muslim Ubuntu offends my Christians beliefes
[15:55] <jjesse> do they have to take that into consideration
[15:55] <jrwren> you don't have to do anything.
[15:55] <jrwren> the community will be more welcoming to you if you offend fewer people.
[15:55] <jrwren> your point is that someone is always going to be offended, and that is true.
[15:56] <krondor> you can't please everyone
[15:56] <jjesse> but what about Christian Ubuntu that offends the Muslim population or if Muslim Ubuntu offends the Christians
[15:56] <jrwren> jjesse: what about it?
[15:56] <jjesse> jrwren, exactly that's what i'm getting at
[15:56] <jjesse> should we b focusing on a variable that contains the word boobs instead of trying to make the product better and used by more people
[15:56] <jrwren> jjesse: here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores  :)
[15:57] <jrwren> jjesse: ah, so your question is what should we focus on. That is ultimately an individual question of values.
[15:57] <_stink_> so i would claim that there are only two motivations for trying to not offend people: 1) your own moral judgment and 2) your desire to be well liked/respected in a community
[15:57] <_stink_> if neither of those motivate you in a particular case, then just do what you want.
[15:57] <jrwren> jjesse: The community at large has decided to value creating a welcome environment and that means focusing on NOT doing exclusionary things like the aforementioned.
[15:58] <jjesse> jrwren, once again i'm just trying to understand things not be a jerk
[15:58] <jrwren> yes, what _stink_ said, and for evidence you can see the questionable decisions and behavior of RMS and ESR
[15:58] <jjesse> i fully support being as unoffensive to people at conferences etc
[15:59] <jrwren> jjesse: I'm sorry if I am responding as if you are jerk. I'm honestly just trying to engage in teh discussion. I think that I understand your questions.
[15:59] <jrwren> jjesse: why qualify that to "at conferences" ?
[15:59] <jjesse> but wonder if we should focus our time on checking for precense of boob as variable instead of fixing the problems
[15:59] <jrwren> the presense of boob as variable IS a problem.
[15:59] <jjesse> jrwren, i don't think you are making me sound like a jerk
[16:00] <jjesse> but not to the 99% of the people that don't read the code right?
[16:00] <_stink_> maybe i just mistyped 'bob'.
[16:00] <jrwren> jjesse: oh sure, its not a problem to an end user (whatever that means)
[16:01] <jrwren> it is a huge problem when brilliant female programmers decide not to engage in the community because they feel unwelcomed.
[16:01] <jjesse> jrwren, i fully agree w/ that comment you just made
[16:01] <jrwren> That is the problem.
[16:02] <jrwren> you said "i fully support being as unoffensive to people at conferences etc". That also is not a problem to 99% of the people that don't attend the conference. So why bother?
[16:02] <jjesse> look i'm not female so i don't know, but does "boob" offend females?  dumb question right?
[16:03] <jrwren> ha, no.
[16:04] <jrwren> I doubt offend is the right world, but does it welcome them?
[16:04] <_stink_> jjesse: i would claim that it's not your place to define what offends others.
[16:04] <jrwren> Why is it there?
[16:04] <jjesse> no idea
[16:04] <jrwren> is it being there important? what purpose does it serve?
[16:04] <jjesse> but probably due to immaturity as mentioned earlier
[16:04] <_stink_> just as only you can define what offends you.
[16:04] <jjesse> at least that would be y argument
[16:04] <jrwren> what purpose could it serve other than being devisive ?
[16:05] <jrwren> What a female has a question about code and does a git blame and sees who wrote this do you think they will be more or less willing to engage and ask? or to contribute?
[16:06] <jrwren> Most smart females I know would role their eyes and write off the idiot man child running around yelling "boobies". It should not be much different in code.
[16:06] <jjesse> or just change the variable?
[16:07] <jrwren> do you want to be the woman with the blame in the git history for changing that constant?
[16:07] <_stink_> i don't think it's the presence of the word per se.  it's the tolerance of developers who think it's a good idea to behave like that.
[16:08] <jrwren> right, its certainly not JUST 0xb00b135 its the attitude that goes along with it.
[16:10] <rick_h> https://twitter.com/boucher/status/268224736448892928 lmao of the day
[16:25] <snap-l> rick_h: Hah. :)
[16:32] <jrwren> its The Atlantic, wtf does anyone expect.
[16:33] <rick_h> oh come on, it didn't make you laugh?
[16:33] <rick_h> you're too serious today :P
[16:33] <jrwren> oh no, it definitely made me laugh.
[16:33] <jrwren> i retweeted it :)
[16:40] <jrwren> omg, I just had the craziest idea for a vim plugin.
[16:41] <jrwren> read the current active tab in your web browser and tokenize it and add those tokens to autocomplete. How often are you reading docs in web browser for what you are writing in vim?
[16:42] <rick_h> how are you going to tokenize for various web content layouts?
[16:56] <jrwren> same way vim would
[16:57] <jrwren> so yes, there would be lots of garbage, but that is OK
[17:10] <snap-l> How am I going to tokenize G+?
[17:10] <snap-l> or reddit. :)
[17:10] <snap-l> lo[tab]lwtfbbq
[17:11] <rick_h> he said docs, not the drunk/insane :P
[17:21] <snap-l> rick_h: Some days I wonder if there's a difference. :)
[18:45] <krondor> If there's anything Penguicon has taught me, it's that the best docs are written drunk.  And presentations given...
[18:52] <greg-g> * is better drunk.
[18:52] <greg-g> drunk > *
[18:53] <greg-g> pick your favorite way of doing it :)
[18:56] <snap-l> swinging from the lampshades seems to be a crowd pleaser
[18:56] <snap-l> Er, should have read that more carefully.
[19:13] <waldo323_> krondor, does that mean we should have more late night tech talks?
[19:18] <snap-l> waldo323_: I think it means we should spend more of the PCon budget on good beer.
[19:19] <waldo323_> :)
[19:20] <waldo323_> ooooh i wonder if i could have a free as in beer and with beer tech segment
[19:25] <waldo323_> not sure how i'd pull off the free bit for the beer though
[19:25] <waldo323_> s/we/i/
[19:26] <ColonelPanic001> penguicon is coming up, I nearly forgot
[19:26] <ColonelPanic001> I should probably go to that
[19:26] <rick_h> feels like that just happened, when is it?
[19:26] <rick_h> isn't it like next spring?
[19:26] <ColonelPanic001> TBD, according to their site
[19:26] <ColonelPanic001> it'll probably say that until the night of
[19:26] <rick_h> heh, so that's hardly coming up
[19:27] <ColonelPanic001> I expect the schedule will be up the week after the event
[19:27] <rick_h> you have such faith
[19:27] <ColonelPanic001> that's their standard procedure :P
[19:27] <ColonelPanic001> well, almost. They got the new-agey shakra and auras stuff up nice and early
[19:28] <waldo323_> hotel is the question at the moment
[19:28] <waldo323_> there was a possible date but it conflicted with notacon
[19:29] <waldo323_> so they are trying for the week after that
[20:00] <_stink_> ColonelPanic001 likes to be early for everything
[20:00] <ColonelPanic001> I plan to get to Penguicon a week in advance
[20:00] <ColonelPanic001> just in case
[20:01] <krondor> waldo323: thank god for avoiding con conflict, olf + grrcon + derbycon == fail
[20:04] <krondor> also I'm all for late night tech talks, because a.) not a morning person, and b.) late night people are more fun in my experience.
[20:10] <brousch> We (GrrCon) had Kevin Mitnic
[20:12] <krondor> brousch:  I wanted to goto grrcon badly actually but had told olf I'd speak and then found out they were the same weekend.
[20:14] <jrwren> anyone know deb's well enough to know dh_strip and how it works?
[20:15] <jrwren> ah, nvm. it works with dpkg-buildflags
[20:32] <snap-l> IE10 was released.
[20:32] <snap-l> That makes 4 supported versions of IE?
[20:32] <snap-l> 7, 8, 9, and 10?
[20:33] <rick_h> 8/9/10?
[20:33] <rick_h> I don't think 7 is any longer
[20:33] <rick_h> and that's just until XP falls off support again then 8 can go away I think
[20:33] <snap-l> Is it in that meta-support that 6 enjoyed?
[20:33] <rick_h> yea
[20:33] <rick_h> no support but wtf people can still install and never upgrade
[20:33] <brousch> XP has IE8.  That's only in the basic package"
[20:51] <snap-l> "Oh, you want a leather-wrapped steering wheel? That's in our NASCAR package"
[20:51] <greg-g> it's worse than that, it is seriously just flipping a few bits to enable more IP connections (for the difference with the Windows Server packages)
[20:52] <snap-l> greg-g: Yeah, I know.  What's wrong with Scions?
[21:03] <snap-l> Other than I'd never be caught in one.
[21:03] <rick_h> people buy them sure, but I'd have to poke fun at anyone here driving one
[21:03] <rick_h> even this is filled with ...nope http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/17/rendered-speculation-one-possibility-for-next-gen-new-beetle/
[21:04] <rick_h> the front of that one looks like the trunk of a real car
[21:04] <brousch> I don't see a problem with http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/
[21:05] <krondor> snap-l:  I once drove someone's beetle from the front of a dorm to a parking space, went to move the seat and broke off the plastic knob.
[21:05] <rick_h> lol, that's what I hated.   Number 1 was driving down the road when my rear view interior mirror fell off ('92 ford taurus in 2004)
[21:07] <rick_h> lol, at least that car had some years on it first
[21:07] <krondor> I believe that car was manufactured from rust painted silver
[21:08] <snap-l> krondor: Yeah, that's the Taurus alright.
[21:08] <krondor> so I'm upset that the dna has as much ram as my laptop, a better screen, and more cpu cores
[21:09] <snap-l> Had that happen in my Alero, but that was after the second windshield repair
[21:09] <brousch> krondor: DNA?
[21:09] <krondor> http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/13/htc-droid-dna-verizon/
[21:09]  * snap-l loved the Alero. Was a welcome change from the shitbucket transmittions of the last two Ford products I had.
[21:10] <brousch> HTC is paying off Apple. They can go suck an egg
[21:10] <snap-l> brousch: I don't blame any company for trying to avoid litigation
[21:10] <snap-l> I think it's humorous in the wake of the Samsung / Apple litigation that Samsung raised the prices of the A6
[21:11] <brousch> That will encourage Apple to keep the lawsuits flowing
[21:11] <snap-l> though I don't ascribe that to anything to do with the lawsuit
[21:11] <brousch> Also the one time I tried to root an HTC I failed, so they can go suck an egg for that too
[21:11] <snap-l> brousch: so much hostility
[21:11] <krondor> I've had good luck with htc actually, but I dislike sense ui, well and motoblur, actually anything not stock android pretty mcuh
[21:11] <brousch> Fuckem, there are many alternatives
[21:12] <krondor> s/mcuh/much/
[21:12] <snap-l> krondor: ++


[14:58] <wonko> Hmm, I've broken something but I don't know what. Boo.
[14:58] <wonko> I mean, I really don't understand how I've broken it
[14:59] <wonko> oh, I might need to actually update autojack first
[14:59] <wonko> I'll do that then I guess
[14:59] <OvenWerks> Are you still working in a branch? or is it in main now.
[14:59] <wonko> branch
[14:59] <OvenWerks> (master)
[14:59] <wonko> I won't merge it into master until it's tested and even then i'll do a merge request and get it reviewed
[15:05] <OvenWerks> did it stop working on the last commit?
[15:07] <wonko> You know, that's a good question. It may not be my fault at all. :)
[15:07] <wonko> I didn't think to test master before my changes
[15:07] <wonko> let me do that now
[15:08] <OvenWerks> well my thought is you have three commits... did you test each one?
[15:10] <wonko> Oh, it does seem to be working
[15:10] <wonko> it just takes an awfully long time for the DSP load to start showing Running and an actual percentage
[15:10] <OvenWerks> you seem to have reformatted everything to 4 spaces rather than 2
[15:10] <OvenWerks> please fix that
[15:11] <wonko> That's in direct violation of PEP8. :-D
[15:11] <OvenWerks> I don't care
[15:11] <wonko> that is a valid answer.
[15:11] <wonko> let me see if I can convince PyCharm to do 2 instead of 4
[15:12] <OvenWerks> At this point I can't tell what has changed and what hasn't
[15:13] <OvenWerks> It would be ok to make one commit that only reformats and nothing else and then make other changes, but as it is, it's impossible to read the diff file.
[15:13] <OvenWerks> It looks like everything has changed
[15:13] <OvenWerks>  and actual code changed are lost.
[15:14] <wonko> ah, yes, good poing
[15:14] <wonko> point
[15:14] <wonko> put it to 2 for now
[15:14] <OvenWerks> However, even that said I set things to two spaces because it is easier for  my use
[15:14] <wonko> although I wonder how many other changes are purely formatting changes that pycharm did on my behalf.
[15:15] <wonko> I'm ok with 2 if that's what you want to do, PEP8 be dammed (although I do my best to try and follow it if I can)
[15:15] <wonko> but if you are willing to switch to 4 I can do a quick formatting commit to master so we can compare reasonably
[15:15] <OvenWerks> WHat is PEP8? where did it come from?
[15:16] <wonko> PEP8 is the style guide for python written by the python folks
[15:16] <OvenWerks> to be honest I like tabs better
[15:16] <wonko> I'm with you on that one, but everyone seems to be against us for some reason
[15:16] <OvenWerks> but people don't like to use one char instead of two or four
[15:17] <wonko> and allow them to set indent to whatever suits them instead of forcing indent on people
[15:17] <wonko> I hate non-tab indents
[15:17] <wonko> but it's just one of those battles I've given up fighting
[15:17] <OvenWerks> the C/C++ world has no problem with it. It means each person can set their editor to whatever tab size they like
[15:17] <wonko> Coming from C is probably why we share that view. :)
[15:18] <wonko> If you'd like we can swtich to tabs and give the middle finger to the python community. :)
[15:19] <wonko> but, the entire reason for using python is for others to be able to read it, so we should probably try to stick to their formatting as much as possible (within reason of course)
[15:19] <OvenWerks> the people who review for release don't like tabs either... otherwise it would be tabs already.
[15:21] <OvenWerks> I can change indent to 4 I guess. But it may not help much unless you recommit.
[15:21] <OvenWerks> It could get messy... maybe rebase will be ok.
[15:36] <OvenWerks> OK, master is now four spaces... ahh but you have changed everything to 2...
[15:36] <wonko> :-D
[15:36] <OvenWerks> it would be best now if you do a git rebase master
[15:37] <OvenWerks> (you may have to pull master first)
[15:38] <OvenWerks> other wise yu would have to compress your commits into one
[15:38] <OvenWerks> and if things are not working right that could be a problem.
[15:40] <OvenWerks> the reason there is a delay when you start may be that autojack is not running (or the wrong version) when you first tried it and there is an extra delay while it sends a quitesignal out and restarts autojack
[15:41] <OvenWerks> The second time you restart jack should happen much faster
[15:43] <OvenWerks> wonko: so if you are in your branch, you have to git stash, git branch master, git pull, git branch <your branch>, git rebase master.
[15:43] <OvenWerks> then git push your branch may with --hard
[15:44] <OvenWerks> That is the only way I can think of to be able to read your code
[15:44] <OvenWerks> Unless you are going to compress everything into one commit... then I can back peddle my commit on master.
[15:47] <OvenWerks> wonko: which way are we doing things? I can also pull your branch and do that here if it would be better
[15:49] <OvenWerks> BTW, the edit I am using (Geany) has a nice setting for indents called "Detect from content" your's may have similar
[16:00] <wonko> I'll fix my branch in a little bit. Hang tight.
[16:01] <OvenWerks> cool
[16:57] <wonko> Ugh, rebase/merge is not going well. :)
[16:59] <OvenWerks>  :)
[17:02] <OvenWerks> have you ever used git gui?
[17:03] <OvenWerks> It gives you good feedback about what the diff is from the last commit. and points out things like unitended changes, trialing white space etc.
[17:03] <OvenWerks> trailing even...
[17:48] <wonko> I haven't but I might need to. Wait, you switched to 4 spaces, right? Maybe I should switch back to 4 first which would probably help out.
[18:16] <Eickmeyer> I use git cola.  :-D
[19:08] <OvenWerks> it is just a part of colaboration...
[19:09] <wonko> Ok, so rebase still doesn't go well
[19:10] <wonko> it says there's a conflict with a HUGE chunk of code
[19:10] <wonko> and both versions are not at all my code, so I'm not even sure the best way to proceed now.
[19:10] <OvenWerks> yikes?
[19:10] <OvenWerks> which file(s)
[19:10] <wonko> controls
[19:10] <wonko> the only one I've worked on so far
[19:11] <wonko> I've pushed the configparser branch
[19:11] <wonko> so that's up to date now if you care to poke at it
[19:32] <OvenWerks> trying a rebase here
[19:33] <OvenWerks> Mostly more reformatting stuff... like splitting long lines
[19:35] <OvenWerks> What I don't get is there is a huge part that doesn't seem to have any changes that show a diff
[19:38] <OvenWerks> Your editor doesn't like call (whatever)... it has changed them to call(whatever)
[19:39] <OvenWerks>  :P
[19:44] <OvenWerks> So it is not just space numbers, but an overall set of changes. I am mostly oking them.
[20:09] <OvenWerks> wonko: ok first problem is that controls chokes on the old config file.
[20:10] <wonko> yeah, make sure it's actually what you want
[20:10] <wonko> because I don't think it's merging correctly
[20:14] <wonko> in the part where it reads in the legacy config it should be sticking those into the configparser but post rebase it looks like it's reverted to sticking those into the class variables
[20:14] <OvenWerks> I have taken back the last two commits (two spaces and then four spaces) and am working with that.
[20:14] <wonko> probably a wise idea
[20:15] <wonko> let me paste some examples so you know what I'm talking about. Otherwise you'll rebase out all my work. :)
[20:16] <wonko> What it should be: https://gist.github.com/bhechinger/6450c488299db163a6d90aa26d3af970
[20:16] <wonko> What it shouldn't be: https://gist.github.com/bhechinger/a12f567e42fe289e39273f05f8db00c0
[20:19] <OvenWerks> Ya it looks right
[20:23] <OvenWerks> wonko: I found out why it didn't work :)
[20:23] <wonko> Woo! What was it?
[20:24] <OvenWerks> wonko: you assumed that if the config file is in the new spot it is new format and if it is in the old spot it should be old format but because I had moved the file already mione has an old format in the new spot and fails.
[20:24] <OvenWerks> wonko: so that is ok. no one else should be in that place. let me try a move instead.
[20:25] <wonko> yeah, that was my thinking. It's ok to assume new format for new file because that technically doesn't exist anywhere yet. :)
[20:25] <OvenWerks> except in my system... ok that works.
[20:26] <wonko> You're special. :)
[20:26] <OvenWerks> There is one little thing I want to fix the a2j check box should default to on. and doesn't so I need to find out why. I thought I had fixed it, but I think not.
[20:27] <wonko> yeah, I noticed I needed to keep checking that when I would blow away config files and start over
[20:27] <OvenWerks> wonko: do you want me to push the whole thing back to your branch or onto master?
[20:27] <wonko> If you're ok with it going to master that's fine
[20:27] <wonko> just keep in mind autojack currently doesn't do new config file
[20:28] <wonko> got sidetracked with this other stuff. :)
[20:28] <OvenWerks> That is my thinking too, so maybe your branch now that we are fully rebased to master.
[20:29] <wonko> ok, sounds good
[20:29] <wonko> I'll pull it tomorrow morning and knock out autojack changes
[20:29] <wonko> then that should be done
[20:29] <wonko> then I can start work on what I originally wanted to work on. :)
[20:29] <OvenWerks>  Your editor will probably "fix" a few things I put back before I realized why it was doing what it was doing... things like spliting lines so they fit in the editor window and adding blanklines before the calls
[20:30] <wonko> yeah, it's trying to conform to PEP8 as much as it can.
[20:30] <OvenWerks> you may need to reclone or pull -hard or force or whtever
[20:30] <wonko> ok, i'll keep that in mind
[20:43] <OvenWerks> Everything looks mostly ok... I would draw you attention to line 526 in controls... zdev should self.def_config['XDEV'] but should look like a list ( ["first", "second", "etc."] )
[20:44] <OvenWerks> even if it has nothing (default) or only one item
[20:45] <OvenWerks> So maybe pull controls and autojack into your editor and let it "fix" things (they fix cats you know) and recommit, then work.
[20:47] <OvenWerks> It appears your editor will fix things every time should I make any "mistakes". So those commits should be listed as "NO-OP: reformating"
[20:47] <OvenWerks> So anyone looking knows there are no opperational changes
[20:55] <OvenWerks> Ah, I figgured it out. self.zdev doesn't exist if there is no config file to begin with.
[20:56] <OvenWerks> I will have a few fixes shortly. wonko.
[20:56] <wonko> Ok, cool
[21:03] <OvenWerks> So I will have to do some more testing on the xdev-zdev thing. and you will run into the same problem with pulse-in:"name1 name2"
[21:03] <wonko> Yeah, it kinda makes me want to use a config file format that supports proper data formats like json
[21:03] <OvenWerks> taking a config string and making it a list
[21:03] <OvenWerks> json ew
[21:04] <wonko> yeah, I don't love that solution
[21:04] <wonko> either thing there actually. :)
[21:05] <OvenWerks> The simple thing to do is to have an internal variable that is a list and to read into that
[21:05] <wonko> that's what I did with zdev
[21:06] <OvenWerks> converting back and forth from lists to strings is not hard
[21:06] <wonko> zdev gets built from XDEV and on save gets converted back to a string
[21:07] <OvenWerks> so pulse_in and out will be the same... and ZDEV will go through a similar transition... well probably different to get the same thing
[21:07] <wonko> pulse_in/out will be a bit more work, but yeah
[21:09] <OvenWerks> zdev needs to have the actual hw:device but zdev names will be the variable list that goes with it so people can change their USB name from "Device,0,0-in" to "USB_Mic"
[21:10] <OvenWerks> (yes I do have an actual USB audio dongle that calls itself "Device"
[21:11] <OvenWerks> wonko: I think once you get the configparser working in autojack, we should do a merge to master. then you can work on the pulse names thing.
[21:11] <wonko> sounds like a plan
[21:12] <OvenWerks> before we merge to maser please run dch in the root directory and add a line.
[21:14] <wonko> you'll have to translate that to english for me, please. :)
[21:14] <OvenWerks> dch = debian changelog edit
[21:15] <OvenWerks> hopefully editor on your system points to some reasonable editor like nano.
[21:15] <wonko> nano is not a reasonable editor. :)
[21:15] <OvenWerks> The reason I need you to do that is that it puts your name in there
[21:16] <OvenWerks> would you like ed instead?
[21:16] <wonko> vi
[21:16] <OvenWerks> vi is fine if you like it. anyway you just need to add a one line thing to say switched to configparser
[21:17] <OvenWerks> normally dch adds your name and a * after the * put your "switched to configparser"
[21:18] <OvenWerks> I would not worry about all the format changes as they are no op
[21:18] <wonko> ok
[21:18] <OvenWerks> I can do the merge or you can depending on how you feel.
[21:20] <wonko> as long as you've tested it before I merge I'll be happy to do it
[21:20] <OvenWerks> so far it is working
[21:20] <wonko> I still need to do autojack. :)
[21:20] <OvenWerks> ya I know.


[14:44] <brendand> elopio, hello
[14:44] <elopio> brendand: hi.
[14:45] <brendand> elopio, when trying the grid units test did you get something like this? http://paste.ubuntu.com/10792030/
[14:45] <elopio> brendand: no.
[14:45] <elopio> I got the app opened
[14:46] <elopio> just the click happened in the wrong place.
[14:46] <brendand> elopio, oh. did you see this type of error before? did i do something wrong?
[14:46] <elopio> brendand: are you running on the device?
[14:46] <brendand> elopio, yes
[14:46] <elopio> brendand: maybe you missed the dbus probe?
[14:47] <brendand> elopio, yeah i was thinking. it doesn't look like the normal error you get there, but i'll try
[14:47] <elopio> and, are you running with phablet-test-run from the host?
[14:49] <elopio> I can't boot my arale anymore :'(
[14:52] <brendand> elopio, no on the device
[14:53] <elopio> brendand: try phablet-test-run, I remember something funny running from the device.
[14:57] <brendand> elopio, i didn't know it was possible to run tests from the branch with phablet-test-run
[14:58] <elopio> brendand: ah, you have to deploy the branch first. I generally get the deb from the last jenkins execution and install it.
[14:58] <brendand> elopio, right
[15:01] <brendand> elopio, standup?
[15:01] <brendand> rhuddie, ^
[15:02] <elopio> brendand: there is a stakeholders meeting that I need to attend.
[15:02] <rhuddie> brendand, omw
[15:02] <elopio> I'll update the doc.
[15:02] <brendand> elopio, ok
[15:45] <bfiller> davmor2: don't think this is an oxide bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1442692
[15:46] <bfiller> davmor2: it's an issue with flickr, some images are copy protected and can't be downloaded
[15:46] <bfiller> davmor2: at least I think so, this has happened in the past. looking for bug..
[15:47] <davmor2> bfiller: yeap looking at changing the steps to not rely on flikr
[15:48] <davmor2> bfiller: works pointing at ubuntu.com and grabbing the first image from there
[15:48] <bfiller> davmor2: thanks, if you look in ~/Pictures I believe a 0 byte gif is downloaded in the case it's copy protected but it's not displayed by the gallery
[15:56] <cyphermox> plars: looks like there are some issues running the smoke testing that should move desktop iso images to the current directory?
[15:57] <cyphermox> I was asking jibel who told me to ping you, looks like the installer might not even be starting
[16:00] <elopio> ubuntu-qa: I'm about to meet with unity-apis, to talk about upstreaming the helpers, in case somebody wants to join.
[16:00] <elopio> it's in the calendar.
[16:03] <jfunk> coming
[16:03] <alesage> elopio, say hi for me :)
[16:04] <fgimenez> elopio, i'm leaving sorry
[16:04] <rvr> davmor2: The (related) problem I found before was that images won't open in the gallery in full screen
[20:49] <ianorlin> is there any reason you can't apport-collect to a file ? Is it because it would need to get info on the bug from launchpad
[20:51] <ianorlin> If we had the user filing the bug imput the package name could apport-collect know which info to collect and save in a file though?
[20:51] <ianorlin> I might want this because I can't really login to launchpad with a text browser because of anti bot stuff


[01:17] <LjL> wait did he
[01:17] <Pici> I don't see it...
[01:17] <LjL> which part of !opabuse is !ops
[01:18] <Pici> weird
[01:18] <IdleOne> I think the bot got confuzzled
[01:18] <LjL> waitwaitwait, i need to make a step back towards not giving a damn
[01:19] <LjL> and go drink more in the company of... no one, which is going to be better than earlier tonight
[01:35] <phunyguy> I got a PM too naming off the ops
[01:35] <phunyguy> if that helps.
[01:35] <IdleOne> that is expected, but no.
[01:35] <LjL> a PM doing what?
[01:35] <IdleOne> I think rww hacked her
[01:36] <phunyguy> lol probably.
[01:36] <phunyguy> and LjL, I don't mind the kick.  I can handle it.
[01:37] <LjL> uh... tell that to the person who kicked you?
[01:37] <phunyguy> well you mentioned op abuse
[01:37] <LjL> that had nothing to do with you
[01:37] <phunyguy> oh...
[01:37] <LjL> and your kick wasn't really op abuse either
[01:37] <Unit193> !opabuse
[01:37]  * phunyguy crawls back into his hole filled with steak and beer
[01:40]  * IdleOne gives LjL a hug
[01:41]  * LjL isn't sure how to snarkily respond to that
[01:43] <IdleOne> you can't. Hugs are filled with love and understanding
[01:44] <LjL> oh, i thought it was chocolate cream
[01:47] <LjL> space-separated final period, classy
[02:03] <IdleOne> !ubuntu-gnome is <reply> Ubuntu GNOME is a supported !flavor of Ubuntu that uses !GNOME as the default desktop environment instead of Unity. For more info or to download, see http://www.ubuntugnome.org/ or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/OneStopPage
[02:03] <IdleOne> !gnome is <reply> GNOME was the default desktop environment on Ubuntu up to 10.10. To install the GNOME Shell, type [ sudo apt-get install gnome-shell ] in a !terminal. For the GNOME-based !flavor of Ubuntu, see !ubuntu-gnome
[02:04] <IdleOne> !no gnome is <reply> GNOME was the default desktop environment on Ubuntu up to 10.10. To install the GNOME Shell, type [ sudo apt-get install gnome-shell ] in a !terminal. For the GNOME-based !flavor of Ubuntu, see !ubuntu-gnome
[02:15] <IdleOne> !flavors is <reply> !Ubuntu-GNOME, !Kubuntu, !Xubuntu and !Lubuntu are simply flavors of Ubuntu that come with GNOME, KDE, Xfce, and LXDE (respectively) installed as default, instead of Unity. Other specialized flavors of Ubuntu include !Edubuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, and !Mythbuntu.
[02:15] <IdleOne> damnit bot! why can't you just assume I am right
[02:15] <IdleOne> !no flavors is <reply> !Ubuntu-GNOME, !Kubuntu, !Xubuntu and !Lubuntu are simply flavors of Ubuntu that come with GNOME, KDE, Xfce, and LXDE (respectively) installed as default, instead of Unity. Other specialized flavors of Ubuntu include !Edubuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, and !Mythbuntu.
[12:54] <popey> what do we do about people who randomly "asl" in pm? then if you accidentally type "19/f" they start chatting you up?
[12:56] <LjL> "accidentally"
[12:56] <LjL> redirect them to me
[12:56] <LjL> i can be a 19yo girl for them, or anything else they want me to be
[12:57] <LjL> also, ban the crap out of them maybe
[13:08] <popey> heh
[13:14] <Mark_de_J> Oh hi.
[13:15] <Mark_de_J> Someone in here? :-)
[13:22] <LjL> yeah
[13:22] <LjL> but, like, i don't really remember the deal with you, but i have a vague memory of you needing to stay banned from wherever you were ;(
[13:22] <LjL> is a ban actually the issue?
[13:23] <Mark_de_J> Yes. :O
[13:23] <Mark_de_J> But not the irc ban
[13:23] <Mark_de_J> I want back on forums... :P
[13:23] <LjL> oh... but we don't really run the forums, or deal with them
[13:23] <LjL> i think the right channel could possibly be #ubuntuforums
[13:23] <LjL> but not sure if they're the ones who deal with administrative things, either
[13:23] <Mark_de_J> Ok, sorry.
[13:24] <LjL> no problem at all
[13:24] <Mark_de_J> IRC ban is forever, is ok.
[13:24] <LjL> well no, we can discuss that if you want, although i'm not feeling too well so i might need to hand it over
[13:25] <Mark_de_J> We can? Okay?
[13:25] <Mark_de_J> Hmm, g2g now. ;(
[13:26] <LjL> okay, then later maybe
[13:26] <LjL> merry christmas (if you care about that)
[13:27] <Unit193> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123
[13:28] <LjL> Unit193: you seem to know about a lot of pointers to administrative things, that would be valuable for an ircc member
[13:28]  * LjL hides
[13:28] <Unit193> Hah.
[14:00] <LjL> yeah whatever, nobody cares
[20:44] <ikonia> ss_haze: how can we help you ?
[20:44] <ss_haze> merry xmas
[20:44] <ikonia> thank you, and to you too
[20:45] <ss_haze> tnx for reminding that you can help me, unbaning me from *buntu channels
[20:45] <ss_haze> next year I promise to be a good boy
[20:46] <ikonia> ss_haze: I'm sorry, but as I explained to you in the past, you're not going to be unbanned for a long time, your behaviour in ANY of the ubuntu channels is a persistant problem, and you show the same disregard for being polite to people in non-ubuntu channels
[20:46] <ikonia> myself and certain other operators are tired of asking you to "stop" your behaviour and getting abuse back, so as I explained to you, it would be best to use other resources for the medium term
[20:46] <ss_haze> ok, I ask next year
[20:46] <ss_haze> :)
[20:46] <ikonia> ok, have a happy new year, take care .
[21:04] <LjL> maybe we could have a new year's mass unban
[21:04] <LjL> hahahahaha i scared you didn't i
[21:05] <ikonia> go for it, I'd put money that %25 would be re-banned within the same week
[21:05] <IdleOne> bad LjL, bad.  I'm gonna go cook
[23:49] <elky> * Received a CTCP AND-I-SAID-YOU-ONLY-HAD-TO-WISH-ME-A-MERRY-CHRISTMAS-YOU-ARROGANT-ASSHOLE from paddy
[23:49] <elky> oh, there we go
[23:49] <chu> :(
[23:49] <LjL> IdleOne: i'm not really sure how any of that would help


[02:49] <_MMA_> join #lipsofsuna
[13:00] <robsta> hey thorwil, have a sec?
[13:03] <robsta> (re single-canvas approach)
[13:06] <thorwil> robsta: yes, now
[13:06] <robsta> thorwil: andreasn told me that you can still edit grouped elements in inkscape, just double-click the group
[13:07] <thorwil> robsta: i know. but if you build a button from scratch, there is no group ...
[13:08] <robsta> thorwil: yes, but you don't have to ungroup for editing, thought that was the contention we had
[13:08] <robsta> thorwil: starting from the template all IDs will be set already
[13:09] <thorwil> robsta: the problems are: A: initially there is nothing to group if you build the button from scratch. B: you cannot ungroup to easily move parts around. C: editing in groups is damn confusing
[13:11] <robsta> thorwil: but is the missing initial group really a problem? when you start from scratch you don't need a group, only once you load the actual theme in the engine
[13:11] <thorwil> robsta: i expect several iterations to happen ...
[13:12] <robsta> thorwil: yes, but once you have the group iterations are easy
[13:13] <robsta> thorwil: the problem is i don't know how to handle plates design-mode vs. rendering-mode
[13:13] <thorwil> robsta: excpet for moving and copying parts around
[13:13] <robsta> thorwil: librsvg can't change element attributes on the fly
[13:13] <robsta> so it can't turn off plate visibility
[13:14] <thorwil> robsta: that's the one thing the designer has to do. hide background and plates
[13:14] <thorwil> robsta: one could even write a script that makes sure they are hidden in the file
[13:15] <robsta> thorwil: let's leave the script idea aside for now, and focus on an easy-as-possible workflow
[13:16] <robsta> one can always script, but it doesn't necessarily make things more intuitive ...
[13:16] <thorwil> robsta: remembering to hide 2 layers is much easier than dealing with groups
[13:17] <robsta> ok, i see
[13:17] <robsta> you are the designer :)
[13:17] <robsta> plates it be, then
[13:17] <thorwil> robsta: what about the alternative i mentioned, finding the groups by their coordinates? that way the designer would only have to care about things being grouped in the end, no matter what the ID ends up to be. also no fuss with hiding layers, provided you can render the group sans bg
[13:18] <robsta> thorwil: that's a possibility, but it seems messy
[13:19] <thorwil> robsta: ok. i'm happy with plates :)
[13:19] <robsta> the ID is a uniqe identifyer, coordinates are more a "soft" lookup
[13:20] <robsta> (i.e. you can't tell whether you got the right elements rendered or not)
[13:20] <robsta> (from the code)
[13:21] <thorwil> robsta: seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Pieces/Buttons ?
[13:21] <robsta> yes
[13:22] <thorwil> robsta: i wasn't able to determine if GTK+ itself would allow all listed states. so now would be a good time to warn me ;)
[13:23] <robsta> thorwil: what is "double"?
[13:23] <thorwil> robsta: deafult+focus
[13:23] <robsta> thorwil: oh, maybe just call it like that, then?
[13:23] <thorwil> robsta: yeah, only it's too long :)
[13:24] <robsta> doesn't matter, as long as the plate is in place
[13:24] <robsta> or break it over two lines
[13:24] <thorwil> my plates use the same labels
[13:25] <robsta> thorwil: i like your systematic approach, guess no engine/theme out there handles all those states differently
[13:25] <thorwil> but i bet you will like "double" better, as soon as it spares you from writing default-focused
[13:25] <robsta> no, i like things explicit
[13:26] <robsta> and not trying to invent things, just call it what it is
[13:26] <thorwil> robsta: ok, i will change the template
[13:26] <robsta> great
[13:27] <robsta> thorwil: i'd like to look over the naming scheme anyway, at some point
[13:28] <thorwil> robsta: i think i will change - to _, so it can be default-focused_normal
[13:29] <robsta> thorwil: please no
[13:29] <thorwil> luckily SVG is search-and-replace friendly :)
[13:29] <robsta> thorwil: hyphens are so much nicer to read
[13:29] <thorwil> robsta: how then? defaultfocused_normal?
[13:30] <robsta> "button-focused"
[13:30] <robsta> ok, let's quickly go over the naming
[13:30] <robsta> the left-top one should be just "button"
[13:30] <robsta> then, to the right
[13:31] <robsta> "button-focused", "button-default", "button-focused-default"
[13:31] <robsta> 2nd row
[13:32] <robsta> "button-prelight", "button-prelight-focused", "button-prelight-default", "button-prelight-focused-default"
[13:32] <robsta> 3rd row just use "active" for "prelight"
[13:32] <robsta> 4th row: "button-insensitive"
[13:32] <robsta> what do you think?
[13:33] <robsta> (there may be other things than just buttons in the template at some point, so better start correctly)
[13:33] <thorwil> ok
[13:34] <robsta> maybe a native speaker would like to weigh in regarding "prelight" vs. "prelit"
[13:35] <thorwil> robsta: i'm using the GTK terms there
[13:35] <robsta> yes, guess that's a safe bet
[13:36]  * thorwil edits template
[13:36] <robsta> thorwil: where should we host the theme?
[13:37] <robsta> gnome-svn with the engine, or bazaar-playground.gnome.org?
[13:37] <thorwil> i'm not quite sure if this shall become a theme solely for the engine, or an ubuntu theme, yet
[13:38] <thorwil> i prefer bzr
[13:38]  * robsta figured as much
[13:38] <thorwil> and i like launchpad :)
[13:40] <robsta> thorwil: i'll put it on b-p.g.o so you can clone as you see fit
[13:40] <thorwil> ok, cool
[13:41] <thorwil> robsta: so far my actual use of bzr/LP has been just pushing stuff to have a backup and stuff available online :)
[13:44] <robsta> thorwil: just that b-p.g.o doesn't let me log in for some time :/
[13:52] <robsta> isn't that box under ubuntu administration?
[13:54] <thorwil> b-p.g.o? no idea.
[14:15]  * _MMA_ works to get some of Sebastian's Breathe work into BZR.
[15:12] <thorwil> i didn't even link to the SVG template, but to the PNG and nobody notice or cared to inform me :}
[15:13] <thorwil> robsta: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Pieces/Buttons
[15:14] <robsta> thorwil: very aesthetically pleasing :)
[15:15] <thorwil> :)
[15:15] <robsta> guess i only need to make it work now
[15:15] <robsta> :P
[15:35] <thorwil> gnarg. had to update the SVG once more to ajust the canvas size
[15:45] <_MMA_> Dammit. bitmaps aren't being rendered with Inkscape SVN and the Breathe script. Had go back to older Inkscape. :(
[15:49] <robsta> thorwil: i have just patched librsvg, you'll need trunk
[15:51] <kwwii> _MMA_: hrm, that sounds funky...which options changed?
[15:52] <_MMA_> Don't know. I'll talk to Ted when I can. Most likely tomorrow.
[15:54] <_MMA_> And Sebastian messed up alot in his submissions so I got alot of cleanup to do. Mostly him not labeling things and messin' with the 22x22/24x24 plates.
[15:55] <kwwii> ouch
[15:55] <kwwii> ted is on vacation until tomorrow, btw
[15:55] <kwwii> erm, wrong...he should be back from vacation but flying to california
[15:56] <_MMA_> Sure. I'll hit him up when I can.
[15:58] <_MMA_> hahahhahahaha The friggin' Macy's parade was Rick-Rolled! hahahahah
[15:58] <_MMA_> (though it was part of it all) :P
[15:59] <kwwii>  Rick-Rolled?
[16:00] <_MMA_> kwwii: Oh come on man. :) You know. We did it at UDS-Prague.
[16:05] <kwwii> erm, maybe I am just stupid and forgetfull then :p
[16:05] <kwwii> ahhh, google is my friend
[16:07] <_MMA_> :P
[16:20] <robsta> thorwil: unfortunately there are problems with the plates approach in librsvg
[16:20] <robsta> thorwil: apparently librsvg can't locate the plate in your template, whereas a group works just fine
[16:21] <thorwil> robsta: problems are there to be solved
[16:21] <thorwil> ;)
[16:22] <robsta> thorwil: oh what a nice way telling me to work harder ...
[16:23] <_MMA_> Are the plates noted a "path####" or "rect####"?
[16:23] <_MMA_> Look in the plates properties.
[16:24] <robsta> rect
[16:24] <_MMA_> Hmm...
[16:24]  * robsta tries to locate an arbitrary rect
[16:25] <robsta> arbitrary _visible_ rect
[16:26] <robsta> that works
[16:27] <robsta> how can i put something on the plates layer?
[16:28] <_MMA_> I wouldn't. I'd put it 1 layer above.
[16:29] <_MMA_> But if you wan't to an it appears you cant, it might be locked.
[16:29] <robsta> oh, i'm trying to find out what fails librsvg
[16:29] <robsta> the different layer, or visibility of the plate, or whatever
[16:29] <_MMA_> Ctrl+Shift+L brings up the layer dialog box.
[16:29] <robsta> ok
[16:30] <robsta> to i have to move it to top to draw on it?
[16:31] <_MMA_> *Anything* above that plate rectangle will (or should) get rendered. So it's pretty much WYSIWYG.
[16:31] <robsta> yes
[16:31] <robsta> how can i add a plate of my own, for testing?
[16:32] <_MMA_> So you *can* draw it anywhere above a given plate. As long as you can see it.
[16:32] <robsta> i'd like to find out why librsvg fails to localise the plates
[16:32] <robsta> so i'm trying to draw a plate of my own
[16:33] <robsta> but the plates layer seems locked
[16:33] <thorwil> robsta: it is locked
[16:33] <_MMA_> You have to draw a rectangle, and make sure the id is "rect####".
[16:33] <thorwil> robsta: ctrl+shift+L for layer panel
[16:33] <thorwil> the lock icon/button should be self-explanatory
[16:34] <_MMA_> My particular script looks in the "Label" field also.
[16:34] <robsta> oooh, i can only draw on it when its visible
[16:34]  * robsta rather cackhanded with that kind of things
[16:35] <robsta> thorwil: so it seems librsvg can only locate plates when their layer is visible
[16:35]  * _MMA_ wonders how Inkscape does it then.
[16:36] <robsta> _MMA_: it's something completely different
[16:37] <robsta> _MMA_: it seems when you read dimensions of an element using librsvg the suff is rendered internally, and the the bounding box is measured from that
[16:37] <thorwil> robsta: oh. in that case, you can turn the alpha of the rects all the way down, but keep the layer visible
[16:37] <robsta> thorwil: good one! how?
[16:38] <robsta> thorwil: works!
[16:38] <thorwil> robsta: there are several ways. the layer itself has alpha. each object and finally the color/fill
[16:39] <robsta> it was right there in the layers panel, shame on me
[16:45] <robsta> thorwil: are all buttons drawn to have a 5px border?
[16:46] <thorwil> robsta: don't know what you mean
[16:46] <robsta> thorwil: the button images are sliced, how wide are the borders?
[16:47] <thorwil> robsta: the corner radius is 5 px
[16:48] <robsta> ok
[16:49] <thorwil> robsta: the sides are 9 px wide
[16:49] <robsta> oh
[16:49] <thorwil> robsta: from top 8 px
[16:50] <thorwil> 6 px from bottom
[16:50] <robsta> thorwil: we need to work on these terms: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#the-border-image
[16:55] <thorwil> robsta: percentages only?
[16:56] <robsta> thorwil: no, lengths or percentages
[16:56] <thorwil> robsta: then the numbers i gave you do it :)
[16:57] <robsta> so top-right-bottom-left is 8 9 9 6
[16:57] <thorwil> yes
[16:57] <robsta> thorwil: this is measured from the plate, right?
[16:58] <thorwil> robsta: yes
[16:58] <robsta> good
[17:01] <thorwil> bbl
[17:17] <robsta> http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/15-single-canvas.png
[17:19] <thorwil> robsta: that looks interesting :)
[17:21] <robsta> thorwil: it's ugly, but you see how css makes it really easy to match things
[17:29]  * _MMA_ is almost done new Breathe uploads and wiki work. Will have a email post soon.
[17:34] <robsta> thorwil: here's a better one, check out the focused button http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/15-single-canvas.png
[17:36] <thorwil> robsta: ah, that's good
[17:36] <thorwil> robsta: do the edges come from the background layer left visible?
[17:37] <robsta> dunno
[17:38] <thorwil> those column headers will need something custom. same for comboboxes
[17:38] <thorwil> _MMA_: hah, you can't sneak wiki edits past me! :)
[17:38] <thorwil> dinner, bbl
[17:39] <_MMA_> :P
[17:39] <robsta> thorwil: everythings up now, theme "Thorwil" in gtk-css-engine, gnome svn
[17:39] <robsta> see you
[17:51] <_MMA_> Email sent.
[17:58]  * _MMA_ now starts on mimitypes.
[18:13] <thorwil> _MMA_: mimitypes? cute :)
[19:50] <thorwil> nand: hi! designing is easy, eh? ;)
[19:52] <nand> yeah right, I was a bit fast :) The point I wanted to make is that the majority of the work is to be done by developers
[19:53]  * nand dinner, brb
[20:17] <nand> thorwil: okay, I'm less in a hurry now :) Quoting my answer:
[20:17] <nand> Right, I oversimplified :) Designing is not easy. If done consciously, it can be an difficult and intensive work. What I wanted to say is that on the overall the required development effort is higher to much higher than the design one. It depends of course of the project.
[20:18] <nand> thorwil: I'm curious : As a designer, what is your perception of the developers and the developer work?
[20:18] <thorwil> nand: heh. yes, very true
[20:20] <thorwil> nand: developers need a kind of discipline that i lack. competent developers need to be way more clever than i am in some regards. strangely, i can still aid them even regarding purely methodical work where one could think it's about the exact same mindset as for coding
[20:21] <thorwil> nand: but note that i have been called a "dry designer" by one of my professors. and one of the first developers i worked with said i would make a good coder :)
[20:22] <nand> eheh
[20:22] <nand> you may be one of this rare group of developer having good artistic and design skills!
[20:23]  * nand wishes he would have some, even a minimal set
[20:25] <nand> and ok, let's say you want to design an app with Qt Designer, the best WYSYWIG heavy client out there. Have you ever tried? What do you think are the problems of this tool/kind of tool?
[20:25] <thorwil> nand: i wonder if a certain kind of blindness inevitably comes from knowing the implementation side of an application ...
[20:26] <nand> thorwil: I believe so very much for a lot of developers
[20:27] <nand> your mind analyzes and design things according to implementation limitations you are aware of, and that's natural for a developer
[20:27] <thorwil> nand: no, still havn't tried as i have nothing to try and implement with it, wheras i do have some interesting work now :)
[20:28] <thorwil> nand: maybe worth communicating that it is not necessarily about different professions, but that much can be solely a matter of perspective
[20:34] <nand> in fact, there is no application I know of where the UI was publicly designed before being implemented
[20:35] <nand> that could be an interesting experiment for later : doing a fast web application (or just a wiki) where one can submit its glade/qt designer design, and let other people enhance it
[20:36] <nand> a sort of brainstorm, but with exploitable UI by developer included
[20:44] <thorwil> nand: but actually it is not direct interface design, but doing a proper analysis and strategic planning beforehand that should be encouraged
[20:46] <nand> thorwil: right. But that may be a bit too demanding for an basic open source project with ... limited human ressources :)
[20:47] <nand> AFAIK, usually open source project start with one man
[20:47] <nand>  /woman
[20:48] <nand> with a given set of skills
[20:48] <nand> that is probably the heart of the usability problem of open source apps...
[20:50] <nand> problem is, once the UI is set, it's an hard and boring task to change it
[20:51] <thorwil> that's why i want gui/engine separation combined with an authoring environment. to make GUIs fluid
[20:51] <nand> e.g. see the time between amarok 1 and 2, where they are redesigning their UI. More than one or even two years now
[20:52] <thorwil> nand: with Blender, they are moving from a coding the gui to a coding the environment to define the gui strategy
[20:52] <nand> could you explain?
[20:53] <thorwil> nand: it means that issues like the layout of controls is moved out to another level
[20:55] <nand> hmm... abstract!
[20:55] <thorwil> entirely customizable key-bindings is one of the aspects
[20:56] <thorwil> nand: it's the natural conclusion from what has been happening in the big 3d applications since long
[20:56] <thorwil> they offer so damn many features, that at some point users just have to be able to adjust the gui
[20:57] <nand> I was meaning that I is quite abstract to me, I am not understanding :)
[20:58] <thorwil> nand: i'm not sure how far this will actually go, but it could well mean to have an integrated and "live" gui builder in the application
[20:58] <thorwil> nand: so the user can add a widget and bind it to any function offered by the core
[21:00] <nand> hmm. I am curious to see that, but on the other end, I rather trust and make evolve an existing and proven framework, like Qt/Qt designer and GTK/Glade, that wait a few years for a ideal framework that may never see the light of the day
[21:01] <thorwil> nand: ooh, Blender's framework will be solely for Blender ;)
[21:01] <nand> I mean, e.g. Clutter sounds and looks really cool. But it won't be before years before it will prove as a viable solution, than we will get a stable version, and that a WYSIWYG GUI builder will be developed
[21:01] <nand> oh, and yeah, that too :)
[21:02] <nand> That's a trait of developers too : they are more pragmatic and less prone to imagination, since they actually deal with the framework
[21:03] <nand> and when I'm imaginating a crazy thing, I am calculating at the same time the time necessary for implementation, and that flush my most craziest ideas :)
[21:04] <thorwil> nand: if developers were pragamatic, we would have far less duplicated work and languages and toolsets ;)
[21:05] <nand> yeah, that the scratch-your-own-itch thing that is unfortunately a little too widespread...
[21:05] <thorwil> i actually think that many developers are flat out irrational regarding editors, programming languages and toolsets :)
[21:06] <nand> and also all these new shiny new things full of buzzwords that are attracting developers like flees to a bulb
[21:06] <thorwil> cloud xml on rails!
[21:07] <nand> you forgot the "Kit" at the end :]
[21:09] <thorwil> another try if the forum is good for anything: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6264106#post6264106
[21:09] <thorwil> gotta run, good night! :)
[21:09] <nand> gnight!
[23:26]  * kwwii goes to sleep, dreaming of someday looking this good: http://sinecera.de/sean.png
[23:30]  * _MMA_ *cannot* believe Mr. Connery actually posed for that. *shudders*
[23:35] <kwwii> I think it is from some really crappy film he made in the 80's
[23:36] <kwwii> at least it shows that everyone looks totally stupid from time to time
[23:36] <_MMA_> Still!! This was *after* being 007. For shame.
[23:42] <kwwii> hey, maybe he just likes boots ;-)
[23:43] <_MMA_> Well, yeah. I like a good thigh-high as much as the next guy. I ain't lettin' ya take a picture of it. :P
[23:43] <kwwii> I had to look at the pic very closely before I beleived it was real
[23:44] <_MMA_> :)
[23:45] <_MMA_> Well, even if it *was* Sean;s head on Burt's body I figure it would look about the same. :P
[23:49] <kwwii> :p


[02:24] <Guest_71> Umm; Ok. Newbie here. A Law & Politics Activist, I am; dedicated to promoting open-source & free software; But im seriously dysfunctional in maintaining my xubuntu system; & would apprexciate some help doing what i think should be a really simple Re-Install or Up-Date to my system here.
[02:25] <Guest_71> My name is Charles Stewart; & i am in Coleman Texas.
[02:25] <Guest_71> When any of ya-all might get around to it; no big rush or anything here.
[02:26] <Guest_71> Maybe i should explain a few details.
[02:27] <Guest_71> I downloaded the current version of xubuntu, & extracted the files in the directory it downloaded to; but when i re-boot, my ststem is still not up-dated.
[02:32] <Guest_71> Umm; really, my entire system is buggy; & i believe i need to do a complete re-install. I believe i should back-up all of my files; & copy a fersh version of xubuntu to a flash drive; & them just do a complete re-install.
[02:32] <Guest_71> Is there any-one here who might be able to help walk me thru this?
[02:35] <juno> i would direct you to a website that details the process
[02:35] <juno> for instance https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick
[02:39] <juno> it's very straightforward .. once you make your iso stick its mostly a matter ok click OK a bunch of times
[02:56] <Guest_71> Thanks Juno; I am proceeding as you have directed; will take some time here; but will communicate back on how progress is coming along.
[02:57] <juno> another option is to upgrade-in-place for example https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseNotes#Upgrading_from_Ubuntu_18.04_LTS_or_19.10
[02:59] <juno> I would still backup your stuff though
[03:05] <Guest_71> Right. And i see the "up-grade in place" option requires a fully up-dated older-version to work from. My system is so buggy that i believe it would vbe better to do it from a stick.
[03:06] <Guest_71> And the question i was working on, is 20.04 the best version to re-install?
[03:33] <juno> I would go to the latest, yes .. 20.04
[03:34] <juno> as long as your machine is not 32-bit
[04:46] <Guest_71> Right; all three of my laptops are 64-bit.
[14:35] <djtravz> Hello, I need to reformat my drive to MBR. If I made a backup of my partition with gnome-disk-utility, would I be able to restore that image once I switch partition tables?
[15:06] <djtravz> im going to try other troubleshooting steps before switching partition tables, i guess
[15:10] <Mark19> Hey! Since I upgrade to 20.04 I'm not able to suspend my laptop. It basically crashes. I did tried everything to look for what's going on but I didn't found answer. I only get an error message sometimes and it says like "Task refuse to suspend". I'm kinda of noob at this so I came for help. Thanks.
[15:23] <Gwalenn> Hi, i have a bug with Xubuntu 20, to launch program at startup. Sometimes it lauchs it sometimes not
[15:23] <xu-help22w> hallo ist deutsch angesagt:-)
[15:26] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, details
[15:28] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: at first I used parameter/session&start for launching guake. Works sometimes, sometimes not
[15:29] <Gwalenn> second attempt I made a link an move it into ~/.config/autostart : not launch
[15:34] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, go to session and startup > applications autostart > add, type the command and give it like 10 seconds delay.
[15:37] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: I did not see a dealy option
[15:38] <Gwalenn> **delay
[15:39] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, add the command like thin: sh -c "sleep 15; guake"
[15:39] <diogenes_> this*
[15:41] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: I try
[15:42] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: not work
[15:43] <Gwalenn> oups, yes works
[15:43] <Gwalenn> I come back
[15:45] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: launch but after a minute
[15:46] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, we put 15 sec delay, you can put 5 and see if works.
[15:47] <diogenes_> sleep 5;
[15:55] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: I put 1 in parameters, but always needs something like 90s to launch
[15:56] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: this is not a big deal, but it is a bug
[15:57] <xu-help22w> i have bad karma, my ex boyfriend was admin, how do i end it
[15:57] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: every time I began a new session I get a pop-up windows tell me I have a software problem but nothing else
[15:59] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, is it upgrade? or fresh install?
[15:59] <xu-help22w> can someone help me please
[15:59] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, ask
[16:00] <Gwalenn> no fresh install
[16:00] <xu-help22w> i want admin rights what should i do
[16:01] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, where is the comma?
[16:01] <xu-help22w> so far only been user
[16:02] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, what admin rights?
[16:02] <xu-help22w> xubuntu
[16:03] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, what you wanna do?
[16:04] <xu-help22w> install win 7 as sacond
[16:06] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, don't do that.
[16:06] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: ?
[16:09] <xu-help22w> why not? i need win 7 to make tax declaration
[16:11] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, because the recommended way is to install win firts and linux second, otherwise it requires knowledge to install win second.
[16:11] <xu-help22w>  german general finanzial office work only with windows
[16:11] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: I try this in guake.desktop : adding quake-Autostart-Delay in my Guake.Desktop files, but do the same thing
[16:12] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, is that an exe program?
[16:13] <diogenes_> Gwalenn, no clue i never used guake.
[16:13] <xu-help22w> i try to do it via usb
[16:14] <diogenes_> xu-help22w,  i mean why you can't do taxes on linux.
[16:15] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: it is not only a problem with guake
[16:18] <xu-help22w> The tax return is made once a year and transferred to the tax office. now i am doing it for the first time with xubuntu and i cannot log in. this is only possible with windows computers
[16:20] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, what error do you get when you try to login?
[16:23] <Gwalenn> diogenes_: anyway, i came back to standard without delay and works. It stays as this. Thanks
[16:23] <xu-help22w> I need five different encryption keys to identify myself. Only then can I transfer my data, so it is easier to install win 7
[16:24] <xu-help22w> I wanted to do that somehow, now I have to
[16:24] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, you don't need administration password to install win.
[16:25] <xu-help22w> nice:-) and what shell i do
[16:26] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, do you have usb with win?
[16:29] <xu-help22w> formated and unetbootin-windows-677.exe
[16:30] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, you need a windows iso.
[16:31] <xu-help22w> is downloaded on laptop
[16:34] <diogenes_> xu-help22w, this is how you do it https://itsfoss.com/bootable-windows-usb-linux/
[16:35] <diogenes_> after that you create some free space on HHD and that's it.
[16:35] <diogenes_> i need to go niw, good luck.
[18:04] <v1adimir> not tested yet, some new bootable-USB tool: https://www.ventoy.net/en/
[18:05] <v1adimir> (although nothing beats the good ol' Rufus. :))
[18:07] <v1adimir> WHOA, since *when* did Etcher get to be +100MB :o https://www.balena.io/etcher/
[18:07] <v1adimir> ??
[20:05] <coconut> Hi. I bought myself an new thinkpad with uhd screen. Booted xubunt 20.04 with an usb, but anything on the screen is way to small with it. Anything i can do about that?
[20:45] <v1adimir> coconut: yeah, on Windows for example there's "Scale and layout", however on *nix this can be a pain!..:) https://ibb.co/ymzTs50
[20:47] <v1adimir> perhaps there's an answer in a query like this, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=xubuntu+equivalent+of+windows+graphics+scale+and+layout
[20:48] <v1adimir> *with xorg: 1) https://askubuntu.com/questions/472262/adapt-ubuntu-to-a-high-dpi-resolution-screen && 2) https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=7734
[20:50] <well_laid_lawn> he left
[20:50] <v1adimir> jesus.
[20:51] <v1adimir> .. I swear I had checked. :/
[20:51] <well_laid_lawn> !tab
[20:51] <v1adimir> ^^ right, yes! I did. xD
[20:51] <v1adimir> hm
[20:51] <well_laid_lawn> I use the tab key to check
[20:52] <v1adimir> (ugh, that first line - he was still around. pfft. :))
[20:53] <v1adimir> plus, I have a script.. wonder why it didn't trigger. :f
[22:29] <RoadRunner> Problems with creation of persistent live usb drives.  Tried with mkusb; the usb drive produced boots win comps but not a dual boot win/xubuntu comp. Tried with diogenes_ instructions from here: http://dpaste.com/2KV47GY and got these errors: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/YG29Pr2XQz/ help?
[23:35] <n-iCe> hi
[23:41] <Celso> hello