[00:00] <tacone> tseliot: is there a download of it anywhere ?
[00:00] <tseliot> tacone: I haven't released it yet. It parses the man page of xorg and generates an xml file
[00:00] <tseliot> tacone: no, not yet but I hope to release it soon
[00:01] <tacone> tseliot: does it perform the reverse conversion as well ?
[00:01] <tseliot> tacone: no, it doesn't
[00:01] <tacone> tseliot: if it's just one file, you could just pastebin it somewhere
[00:02] <tseliot> tacone: I have to find it first
[00:03] <tacone> tseliot: if it's too much effort nevermind, I'll wait.
[00:04] <tseliot> tacone: my computer is a mess and it's a bit late now. I promise to find it and upload it ASAP
[00:05] <tacone> tseliot: np, it was just out of curiosity. I'll wait :)
[00:49] <emgent> nxvl: remember to remove update debian maintainer bla bla bla in changelog
[00:51] <nxvl> emgent: where?
[00:52] <nxvl> emgent: if you are refering to terminator, it's change it was made in this revision, shouldn't it go there?
[00:53] <emgent> nxvl: not if i remember ubuntu-devel policy, but dont worry :)
[00:53] <nxvl> emgent: mmm, then update-maintainer should be changed
[00:53] <nxvl> (as in script)
[01:05] <slangasek> it was changed
[01:06] <slangasek> though possibly reverted; I haven't followed too closely
[01:33] <ssaboum> 'night everyone
[01:55] <james_w> thanks RainCT
[02:00] <ScottK> RainCT: RE clamav: Just unsub UUS and wait for Debian to apply it.
[02:02] <james_w> ScottK: do you have any time to help clamav in Debian?
[02:02] <james_w> was it in fact you that offered?
[02:02] <ScottK> james_w: There's a new pkg_clamav team.  I'm on it.
[02:02] <james_w> good to hear
[02:03] <ScottK> I'd like it if some more Ubuntu people would join me there and we could maintain a common repo.
[02:14] <tbielawa> alo motu's
[02:23] <tbielawa> I'm looking to enhance ubuntu-vm-builder. what channel do you recommend I start discussions on?
[02:25] <RAOF> I'd guess either #ubuntu-server, or #ubuntu-devel
[02:26] <tbielawa> ty.
[02:27] <tbielawa> I'm looking to add functionality to ubuntu-vm-builder so you can specify MAC addresses at build time. It's feature I had to make extra utils to implement in my workplace
[02:27] <tbielawa> It feels like an essential thing :)
[02:34] <tbielawa> Can anyone please spare a few minutes to please give me a REVU on this upload? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=lucidlife much thanks!
[03:46] <jscinoz> hi guys
[03:47] <jscinoz> i think theres something wrong with REVU atm, if you try to view this package http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=google-gadgets it gives python errors, but if you go directly to an older upload ID of the same package (http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=3475) it works fine... any ideas?
[06:20] <nxvl> ScottK-laptop: around?
[06:20] <persia> nxvl: It's late there (and moreso for you, no?)
[06:21] <nxvl> yep
[06:21] <nxvl> we have almost the same tz
[06:21] <nxvl> but he use to be here until late
[06:21] <nxvl> :P
[06:21] <superm1> meh not that late on the east coast
[06:21] <superm1> yeah i was gonna say i've seen him around 1 or 2 hours past now
[06:22] <persia> It's already today there, which counts as late in my book.  It should clearly be a day earlier.
[06:22] <superm1> haha
[06:23] <nxvl> :P
[06:23] <nxvl> persia: yeah, you live in the other side of the world
[06:23] <persia> It's the sunny side :p
[06:23] <nxvl> 14 hours difference
[06:25] <nxvl> persia: it;s summer there, doesn't it?
[06:26] <persia> nxvl: That's the unfortunate side effect of it being the sunny side.
[06:26] <nxvl> heh
[06:27] <nxvl> yeah, geeks don't like sun often
[06:27] <nxvl> :P
[06:28] <persia> I like the sun, it's just the heat that bothers me.  If there was an environment where it was always sunny, yet never above about 30 C, I'd be very happy there.
[06:28] <nxvl> persia: then come to peru
[06:28] <persia> The new machine house in Dubai looks interesting: lots of piped sun, and systemic air conditioning.
[06:29] <persia> nxvl: It's not always sunny there.  Look up.
[06:29] <nxvl> 30 C on summer (and that's really hot) and 22 on winter
[06:29] <nxvl> persia: Piura is ALWAYS sunny and it's between 28 and 33 C all year
[06:30] <persia> nxvl: It's sunny right now?
[06:30] <nxvl> no, it's night right now
[06:30] <persia> See.
[06:30] <nxvl> :D
[06:30] <stefanlsd> mm. freeze is coming
[06:30] <nxvl> buw i've been there last week and it was sunny (at day)
[06:30] <nxvl> stefanlsd: yep, one more day
[06:31] <nxvl> it already smells like FF, things are going funnier and my head is about to blow up
[06:31] <nxvl> :D
[06:31] <RAOF> stefanlsd:
[06:32] <stefanlsd> RAOF: hihi
[06:32] <RAOF> stefanlsd: You should feel free to subscribe u-u-s whenever you think your package is done.  If we never had to make comments, we'd just let everyone upload.
[06:32] <RAOF> :)
[06:33] <nxvl> making comments is fun
[06:33] <nxvl> :D
[06:33] <stefanlsd> RAOF: hehe. kk. will sub it again.  and hopefully its ok this time.
[06:33] <nxvl> stefanlsd: don't quit, just keep trying, that way you will learn more
[06:33] <stefanlsd> I've been reading this http://mako.cc/writing/to_fork_or_not_to_fork.html.  pretty interesting. makes me wanna get more involved with debian
[06:34] <nxvl> Debian is not so fun as it seems
[06:34] <tuxmaniac> heya gang
[06:34] <tuxmaniac> good morning
[06:34] <RAOF> Debian has the huge disadvantage that I can't upload packages to it :)
[06:34] <nxvl> good $WhateverTimeIsInYourTimezon
[06:34] <nxvl> :D
[06:35] <nxvl> debian development is just a bunch of individual works
[06:35] <nxvl> some of them collective, but just some of them
[06:35] <nxvl> not an open community as ubuntu one
[06:35] <stefanlsd> mm. should be much easier to get dd status there if youre already a MOTU here
[06:35] <RAOF> Yeah.  It would probably take 5 years instead of 10 :P
[06:35] <nxvl> heh
[06:36] <nxvl> stefanlsd: don't be so sure
[06:36] <nxvl> stefanlsd: NM process involves more than just technical stuf
[06:36] <nxvl> stuff*
[06:38] <tuxmaniac> in fact you need to be well versed with policies and licenses, philosophy etc
[06:38] <stefanlsd> heh
[06:38] <stefanlsd> maybe i'll just go to work
[06:39] <stefanlsd> sigh
[06:39] <tuxmaniac> heh
[06:40] <stefanlsd> cya guys later :)
[06:40] <missblack> hi
[06:41] <nxvl> tuxmaniac: AND, the most important part, be a zealot :D
[06:41] <nxvl> :p
[06:41] <dholbach> good morning
[06:41] <nxvl> dholbach: gutten tag
[06:42] <dholbach> nxvl: Guten Morgen!
[06:42] <nxvl> oh yeah! Morgen
[06:42] <nxvl> :P
[06:42] <dholbach> :-)
[06:42] <missblack> hi do you know much about the moon
[06:42] <nxvl> i don't speak german since 2001 when i finished the school
[06:42] <nxvl> :P
[06:42] <dholbach> nxvl: ask me about my Spanish - although I never learned it anywhere :)
[06:43] <dholbach> I'm pondering starting to learn it though
[06:43] <nxvl> dholbach: heh, i wasn't able to speak anything but german at school
[06:43] <dholbach> ugh... poor you :)
[06:43] <nxvl> dholbach: then only courses i have in different languages was Spanish and English
[06:44] <nxvl> even math, biologi and physics was in german
[06:44] <nxvl> (inclusing sports)
[06:44] <nxvl> including*
[06:44] <nxvl> dholbach: yeah, germans grammar isn't easy for a non german speaker :P
[06:45] <dholbach> I pity everyone starting to learn german - although I'm sure there are languages that are much worse :)
[06:45] <nxvl> dholbach: chinesse to name one
[06:45] <gilligan__> no..
[06:45] <dholbach> is the grammar worse?
[06:46] <gilligan__> Chinese grammar is super simple
[06:46] <gilligan__> basically almost non-existing
[06:46] <gilligan__> you just need to get a hang of the different tones
[06:46] <nxvl> yeah, but listening and pronoucing is hell
[06:46] <nxvl> they just scream
[06:46] <gilligan__> naaaah
[06:46] <gilligan__> it's not that bad :)
[06:47] <nxvl> what i found the hardest of german is to have, not only he and she, but it, and actually use it
[06:47] <gilligan__> not to mention all the irregular flexation of words
[06:48]  * nxvl still remember 1st grade der = blue, die = red, das = yellow
[06:48] <gilligan__> s/words/verbs
[06:48] <NCommander> hey ScottK, you floating around?
[06:48] <NCommander> meh, I failed every language class I ever took
[06:48] <nxvl> gilligan__: and saying a completely and logical sentense in ONE word
[06:48] <nxvl> :P
[06:48] <gilligan__> nxvl, eh? "der blue" ?
[06:48] <nxvl> der in german is he
[06:49] <dholbach> "der" is "the" :)
[06:49] <nxvl> so they use colors so you know which object is what
[06:49] <nxvl> well yeah
[06:49] <gilligan__> ah
[06:49] <nxvl> but male "the"
[06:49] <nxvl> and die is female "the"
[06:50] <nxvl> and das is neutral "the"
[06:50] <nxvl> dholbach: and you actually use the 3 of them
[06:50] <nxvl> that's hell
[06:51] <dholbach> so guys... how does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek look?
[06:51]  * dholbach is fairly happy with the sessions offered
[06:51] <nxvl> i want to give a talk :(
[06:51] <tuxmaniac> hey people, is there a way to get harvest list a specific set of softwre packages?
[06:52] <tuxmaniac> not the pkg=xxx,yyyy way.
[06:52] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: but?
[06:52] <tuxmaniac> but depending on a category or team?
[06:52] <nxvl> talking about harvest
[06:52] <NCommander> who did the Ubuntu packaging videos?
[06:52] <nxvl> dholbach: it would be usefull to have the header all the time
[06:52] <dholbach> nxvl: there's a bug about it, bdrung worked on anchors for packages
[06:52] <nxvl> dholbach: from the middle to the bottom, you don't know which bug number represts what
[06:52] <dholbach> but it's still not merged because of some other problems
[06:52] <tuxmaniac> like MOTu Science subscribed packages or whose packages fall under Category="electronics" and stuff?
[06:52] <dholbach> nxvl: I know
[06:53] <nxvl> dholbach: i have a workaround on my ppa, but i never finished it
[06:53] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: what is the launchpad team name?
[06:53] <nxvl> err
[06:53] <tuxmaniac> motuscinece
[06:53] <nxvl> on my bzr
[06:53] <tuxmaniac> motuscience
[06:53] <nxvl> dholbach: you will do packaging 101 in just 1 hour this time?
[06:53] <nxvl> oh, separate fixing bugs
[06:53] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: there's a small script at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-August/026118.html
[06:53] <nxvl> understood
[06:54] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: if you run    python bla.py motuscience    it will give you a harvest URL for that team
[06:54] <dholbach> it's not perfect, but bobbo is working on a different solution
[06:54] <nxvl> i love slangasek talk!
[06:54] <nxvl> it's a funny name
[06:54] <dholbach> and we're looking into using seeds to split up the packages
[06:55] <dholbach> NCommander: I did, if you mean the ones on youtube.com/ubuntudevelopers
[06:55] <tuxmaniac> dholbach oh let me check
[06:55] <nxvl> NCommander: english ones dholbach and spanish one me
[06:55] <NCommander> dholbach, ah, so that's what you look like :-)
[06:56] <dholbach> I have longer hair now
[06:56] <nxvl> dholbach: i love UbuntuDeveloperWeek schedule
[06:57] <nxvl> looks better than the last one
[06:57] <dholbach> nxvl: I uploaded a few pictures from the India trip: http://picasaweb.google.com/daniel.holbach/India
[06:57] <nxvl> and i'm surprised to see so many people i don't know
[06:57] <dholbach> and I'm still writing the blog entry about the trip
[06:57]  * NCommander can see dholbach with a mullet for some reason ...
[06:57] <dholbach> I know... I suck
[06:57] <dholbach> mullet?
[06:57] <emet> is there a simple command to compile a source package into binary packages (deb)?
[06:57] <NCommander> lol
[06:57] <nxvl> dholbach: and i uploaded almost all pictures from disney: http://flickr.com/photos/nxvl/sets/72157606957145935/
[06:57] <dholbach> emet: install devscripts and run     debuild -us -uc
[06:58]  * tuxmaniac quickly clicks on that Indian photo link
[06:58] <NCommander> I dunno why, but I do
[06:58] <tuxmaniac> and dholbach .. my goodness, the url returned is too big. I have to scroll back to get the complete one on terminator ;)
[06:58] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: tinyurl.com :)
[06:59] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: http://tinyurl.com/6l7x9b
[07:00] <nxvl> \o/ another terminator user
[07:00] <nxvl> :D
[07:00] <NCommander> what is terminator?
[07:00] <tuxmaniac> nxvl: terminator rocks
[07:00] <nxvl> tuxmaniac: yes it does
[07:00] <NCommander> besides a future killing machine
[07:00]  * dholbach needs tabs and alt+1, alt+2, alt+3 tab switching to be happy :)
[07:00] <dholbach> NCommander: apt-cache show terminator
[07:00] <nxvl> dholbach: terminator HAS tabs
[07:00] <dholbach> I know
[07:01] <dholbach> but no alt+1 alt+2 alt+3 tab switching
[07:01] <dholbach> like in gnome-terminal
[07:01] <NCommander> would it work on Xubuntu?
[07:01] <tuxmaniac> dholbach: cool thanks.
[07:01] <nxvl> NCommander: yep
[07:01] <lifeless> probably
[07:01] <dholbach> NCommander: I don't see why it wouldn't
[07:01]  * NCommander installs
[07:01] <nxvl> dholbach: file a bug
[07:02] <NCommander> Ok, what's the wow feature from gnome-terminal
[07:02] <NCommander> I've opened a few tabs, but its not quite doing it for me (yet)
[07:02] <NCommander> and suddenly I found it
[07:03]  * NCommander changes his default X terminal
[07:03] <dholbach> NCommander: I think what people like best about it is that they can split the terminals horizontally/vertically
[07:03] <NCommander> yeah
[07:03] <NCommander> Just discovered it
[07:03] <NCommander> I was using GNOME terminal in place of xfce4-temrinal
[07:03] <NCommander> Now terminator is MY terminal
[07:03]  * NCommander joins the Launchpad group
[07:03] <nxvl> :D
[07:04] <nxvl> \o/
[07:04] <nxvl> more terminator users
[07:04] <emet> dholbach, thank you it works :)
[07:04] <nxvl> more bugs and pain for me
[07:04] <nxvl> \o/
[07:04] <NCommander> Where is a list of keystrokes?
[07:04] <nxvl> NCommander: man terminator
[07:04] <nxvl> NCommander: mand terminator_config
[07:04] <dholbach> emet: party on!
[07:04] <nxvl> s/mand/man
[07:04] <emet> :D
[07:05] <NCommander> Ctrl-Shift-0 doesn't work for me
[07:05] <dholbach> might need a newer version?
[07:06] <NCommander> I use intrepid
[07:06] <NCommander> Its in the man page
[07:06] <nxvl> NCommander: it's o not 0
[07:06] <dholbach> ok
[07:06] <NCommander> Oh, O!
[07:06] <NCommander> I think I'm in love
[07:06] <nxvl> NCommander: yep
[07:06] <NCommander> It's like when I first started X11 and discovered multiple xterms ...
[07:06] <NCommander> ^.^;
[07:07]  * NCommander joins the Terminator Users LP grou
[07:07] <nxvl> NCommander: and when the type in multiple terminals feature come out you will be more in love with it
[07:07] <nxvl> it is a terminator users group?
[07:07] <NCommander> THere is one
[07:07] <NCommander> https://edge.launchpad.net/~terminator-users
[07:07] <nxvl> NCommander: you also Cntrl+Drag&Drop to re-order your terminals
[07:07] <nxvl> wow
[07:08] <nxvl> didn't knew it
[07:08] <NCommander> heh
[07:08] <NCommander> I also found ubuntu-smokers tonight
[07:08] <NCommander> (added after I stumbled upon canonical-smokers)
[07:09] <nxvl> monkeys! -> http://picasaweb.google.com/daniel.holbach/India/photo#5238129819067956546
[07:09] <NCommander> For some horrible reason, I want to file a blueprint against ubuntu-smokers "12 step plan to quitting"
[07:10] <NCommander> BTW, anyone here xubuntu users?
[07:10] <dholbach> nxvl: there were lots and lots and lots of them in Shimla :)
[07:10] <nxvl> really?
[07:10] <nxvl> walking on the streets?
[07:10] <dholbach> yeah
[07:11] <nxvl> wooho
[07:12] <NCommander> Less that 24 hours until the freeze
[07:13] <nxvl> NCommander: the nightmare starts
[07:13] <NCommander> ...
[07:13] <NCommander> Damn it
[07:13] <NCommander> "The Nightmare Begins - Final Fantasy VII Soundtrack"
[07:13] <NCommander> My laptop is achieving sentience
[07:14] <nxvl> dholbach: btw, the other day i was talking with persia and we come to the point that i'm the only latin american MOTU, or you know other?
[07:15] <dholbach> nxvl: it very much looks like it
[07:15]  * nxvl felt lonely after that conversation
[07:15] <nxvl> oh
[07:15] <NCommander> nxvl, it could be worse
[07:15] <nxvl> them
[07:15]  * nxvl feels oficialy lonely
[07:15] <dholbach> nxvl: I'm sure you can get a bunch of other people involved! :)
[07:15] <nxvl> dholbach: yep, i get invited to latinoware this year to give a talk
[07:15] <nxvl> dholbach: i will try to wash some peoples mind
[07:15] <nxvl> :D
[07:16] <dholbach> nice
[07:16] <nxvl> i think they are going to invite jono also
[07:16] <NCommander> Install plan 9 on their machines, and when they beg you to remove it, install Ubuntu ;-)
[07:16] <nxvl> they needed an ubuntu keynote speaker
[07:17] <tuxmaniac> bug 260158 is "fix released" but harvest lists it as an opportunity. I am not getting it.
[07:17] <nxvl> so i told them about jono and to forget about mark
[07:17] <nxvl> :P
[07:17] <NCommander> tuxmaniac, I think there is a lag before harvest updates
[07:17] <nxvl> yup
[07:17] <nxvl> there is
[07:17] <dholbach> NCommander: hm?
[07:17] <tuxmaniac> more than 12- 15 hrs?
[07:17] <dholbach> what kind of lag you mean?
[07:17] <dholbach> ah - that
[07:18] <nxvl> dholbach: you close a bug in launchpad and it doesn't update harvest automagically, or it does?
[07:18] <dholbach> it's not actually a lag in harvest, but in the script that generates the .csv list of bugs, that harvest downloads
[07:18] <dholbach> it's a harvest-data 'bug'
[07:18] <nxvl> dholbach: yeah, but considering that script as part of harvest, it is
[07:18] <NCommander> I don't know how harvest works so  can't say specifically
[07:19] <dholbach> harvest checks the list of .csv urls every hour and checks if there were changes made to those .csv files
[07:19] <nxvl> also, not a bug, just how things work
[07:19] <nxvl> you can't have up to date data on such a tool
[07:19] <dholbach> http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest and http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/doc should have more info
[07:19] <tuxmaniac> dholbach: every hour. but this bug was closed 12 hrs back almost
[07:20] <nxvl> tuxmaniac: + the time that it takes to create/update the /cvs
[07:20] <nxvl> .cvs*
[07:20] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: in this case it's bdmurray's script that spits out a .csv file somewhere, that harvest downloads, puts into a database, then generates HTML from
[07:21] <tuxmaniac> oh ok. interesting
[07:21] <nxvl> so we need to blame bdmurray
[07:21] <nxvl> :D
[07:21] <dholbach> harvest has no understanding of bugs, duplicates, patches and so on
[07:21] <dholbach> I wanted to keep that kind of logic out of the code to make it easier :)
[07:22] <nxvl> dholbach: oh, btw, it will be interesting to make a video about how/where to find things to fix (ie. harvest, MoM, ubuntuwire, etc...)
[07:22] <nxvl> and how they work
[07:22] <dholbach> yes, it would
[07:23] <nxvl> but as always time is a problem
[07:23] <nxvl> :(
[07:23] <dholbach> it'd be nice to have all this information in harvest
[07:23] <nxvl> or wiki
[07:23] <dholbach> MoM should spit out a .csv file too
[07:24] <nxvl> and be updated
[07:24] <nxvl> :D
[07:24] <nxvl> woohoo i've just find that terminator has a search bar
[07:24] <nxvl> \o/
[07:24] <nxvl> i always wanted that
[07:24] <nxvl> and i call myself a terminator developer
[07:24] <nxvl> :(
[07:25] <NCommander> *falls over*
[07:25] <NCommander> nxvl, it could be worse
[07:25] <NCommander> YOu could be a Vista developer
[07:25] <nxvl> yep
[07:26]  * nxvl runs screaming
[07:26] <NCommander> rofl
[07:26] <NCommander> nxvl, are there any important packages that needs work befor ethe freeze date?
[07:26] <NCommander> (aka, can I do some more good stuff?)
[07:26] <slytherin> geser: there? need to discuss libjboss-cache stuff
[07:27] <nxvl> NCommander: mmm you can make some ufw integration
[07:27] <NCommander> ufw?
[07:27] <nxvl> NCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#UFW Package Integration
[07:27] <NCommander> link?
[07:27] <nxvl> NCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall#Integrating UFW with Packages
[07:27] <NCommander> whats UFW?
[07:27] <NCommander> Oh
[07:28] <NCommander> Ubuntu firewall
[07:28] <nxvl> Uncomplicated Firewall
[07:28] <nxvl> or Ubuntu Firewall
[07:28] <nxvl> or U* Firewall
[07:28] <slytherin> It is certainly not Ubuntu Firewall
[07:28] <nxvl> (replace * with whatever makes sense for you)
[07:28] <NCommander> Unconfigured?
[07:28]  * NCommander ducks for cover
[07:29] <dholbach> can you just check if there are any glaring mistakes on http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/?p=189
[07:29] <dholbach> ?
[07:29] <nxvl> i think oficial name now is Uncomplicated
[07:29] <NCommander> dholbach, checking
[07:30] <NCommander> dholbach, if you want to host something about Xubuntu, I am your man ;-)
[07:30] <nxvl> dholbach: The Ubuntu Developer Week is designed to give you an overview of what’s going on in the Ubuntu Developer week
[07:30] <dholbach> NCommander: unfortunately the schedule is all set right now - but if you were available as a backup that'd be awesome
[07:30] <nxvl> dholbach: doesn't make much sense
[07:31] <dholbach> nxvl: eh?
[07:31] <dholbach> nxvl: a yes :)
[07:31] <NCommander> dholbach, I assume my notice to fill in comes five minutes after the start date of a class ;-)
[07:31] <nxvl> i think last 'week' should be 'world'
[07:31] <dholbach> s/week/world
[07:31] <nxvl> or something
[07:31] <nxvl> heh
[07:31] <nxvl> :D
[07:31] <dholbach> meta-events!
[07:31] <dholbach> at UDW find out what UDW is about!
[07:32]  * NCommander falls over
[07:32] <NCommander> During the freeze, I'm likely going to be dedicating a good chunk of time to backports testing
[07:32] <NCommander> Its a good month to flush out the queue
[07:33] <ajmitch> stretching legs & kicking out power cord is not a good thing
[07:33] <NCommander> ajmitch, better then the dog takes a leak on your surge protector
[07:33] <NCommander> Then again, I think that was probably the most effective house breaking ever
[07:33] <ajmitch> thankfully I don't have a dog to do that
[07:34]  * NCommander should start a poll on the most common original Linux used by UDs
[07:34] <NCommander> I see a lot of Red Hat, but relatively few people start off as Debian as their first distro ever
[07:35] <NCommander> Just as a completely non-scienific poll, what varient of Ubuntu are the devs running
[07:35] <NCommander> (I'm kinda curious of Kubuntu or regular Ubuntu is more popular these days)
[07:38] <nxvl> dholbach: why we are not having the ask Mark session? is he busy?
[07:38] <dholbach> nxvl: we have "ask Matt"!
[07:39] <nxvl> dholbach: we should have ask jono
[07:39] <nxvl> that would be SO fun
[07:39] <nxvl> people use to make funny questions to jono all the time
[07:39] <nxvl> and worst if popey is aroun
[07:39] <nxvl> around
[07:39] <jpds> nxvl: Did we have that once?
[07:39] <jpds> Didn't*
[07:39] <nxvl> jpds: yeah, don't read the logs
[07:40] <NCommander> jpds, what happened?
[07:41] <nxvl> dholbach: other than the s/week/world thing it's good
[07:41] <nxvl> (or at least it looks good)
[07:41] <jpds> NCommander: Can't remember.
[07:41] <dholbach> thanks nxvl and thanks for digging
[07:41] <nxvl> :D
[07:41] <NCommander> jpds, out of curosity, do you use kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu?
[07:42] <NCommander> (or other)
[07:42] <jpds> NCommander: ubuntu.
[07:42] <nxvl> whenever you want
[07:42] <nxvl> dholbach: this UDW looks awesome
[07:42] <NCommander> I'm trying to figure out what people find so appealing about kubuntu
[07:42] <nxvl> dholbach: there are a lot of sessions i want to see
[07:42] <dholbach> yeah, same here
[07:42] <nxvl> more than the half
[07:42] <NCommander> I've tried it, but KDE never seems to work quite as seemlessly as Ubuntu, and I have to wonder if I'm maybe missing here
[07:43] <nxvl> dholbach: i'm also surprised with the amount of new people giving sessions
[07:43] <dholbach> that's right - we have lots of great people :)
[07:44] <nxvl> yes
[07:44] <nxvl> is good to see so many people don't being afraid and jumping in into new things
[07:45] <NCommander> Yup, I agree with nxvl
[07:46] <dholbach> which forums would be the first for the UDW announce?
[07:46] <NCommander> kubuntu-desktop is uninstallable :-/
[07:46] <dholbach> "community cafe" and "intrepid ibex testing"?
[07:46] <nxvl> dunno
[07:46] <nxvl> don't know the forums
[07:46] <nxvl> ok
[07:46]  * dholbach will put it on those two
[07:46] <nxvl> time to sleep
[07:47] <nxvl> read you later
[07:47] <dholbach> sleep tight nxvl!
[07:47] <nxvl> and have a nice day/sleep tight
[07:47] <nxvl> dholbach: thank you! have a nice day!
[07:47] <dholbach> gracias :)
[08:01] <didrocks> morning :)
[08:02] <dholbach> hi didrocks
[08:02] <dholbach> Ubuntu Developer Week announced! :)
[08:02] <didrocks> dholbach: !!!
[08:02] <dholbach> seems like everybody is pretty happy with the offered sessions :)
[08:05] <tacone> dholbach:  they look great indeed
[08:09] <Hobbsee> oh noes, udu!
[08:09] <Hobbsee> er, udw!
[08:09] <dholbach> Hobbsee: it's been a while since UDU :)
[08:09] <Hobbsee> dholbach: that's true.  that's before my time :P
[08:10] <NCommander> dholbach, UDU?
[08:10]  * dholbach still remembers the  H U G E  key signing party there
[08:10] <NCommander> Ubuntu Developer U?
[08:10] <ajmitch> everyone line up...
[08:10] <dholbach> NCommander: Ubuntu Down Under
[08:10] <NCommander> sounds like fun
[08:10] <ajmitch> and don't touch mako's passport :)
[08:10] <NCommander> Where is this all being done?
[08:11] <dholbach> it was the UDS in Sydney
[08:11] <ajmitch> in 2005
[08:11] <NCommander> I mean this UDW?
[08:11] <NCommander> Or is it just all online
[08:11] <dholbach> NCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/JoiningIn#ubuntu
[08:11] <dholbach> oops
[08:11] <ajmitch> UDW is online, UDS isn't
[08:11] <dholbach> NCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/JoiningIn
[08:12] <NCommander> I'll join in
[08:12] <NCommander> Even in the basic classes, you can learn neat tricks
[08:12] <dholbach> absolutely
[08:13]  * Hobbsee wonders who will get sacrificed to the ubuntu gods, in the sessions.
[08:14] <ajmitch> you
[08:14] <Hobbsee> i won't be there, so it won't be me
[08:14] <Hobbsee> or if i am, i wont be for much of it, and i won't be paying much attention.
[08:14] <\sh> Hobbsee: bug #244261 isn't resolved ... it crashes with the same output and I really think it has to do with the sound stuff
[08:14] <NCommander> morning Hobbsee
[08:15] <Hobbsee> hey NCommander
[08:15] <NCommander> how goes it?
[08:15] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: you'd be there more than me
[08:16] <ajmitch> even if I wanted to be involved, I live in the wrong timezone
[08:16] <Hobbsee> well, i'll be writing parts of a compiler, and such
[08:16] <ajmitch> trivial tasks
[08:16] <NCommander> Hobbsee, what are you doing O_o?
[08:16] <ajmitch> you should have that done soon enough
[08:17] <Hobbsee> NCommander: assignments.
[08:17] <NCommander> You get to write compilers in your uni classes?
[08:17] <NCommander> Damn, your uni 0wns mine
[08:17] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: heh.  i would have, if i was actually *here* this weekend.
[08:17] <Hobbsee> NCommander: in programming languages, yes.
[08:17] <NCommander> fun
[08:17] <NCommander> The most I ever did was write the start of an assembler
[08:18] <NCommander> Hobbsee, luck be to you though, if your writing a C compiler, god help you on the grammer rules
[08:18] <Hobbsee> \sh: interesting.
[08:18] <Hobbsee> NCommander: heh.  fortunately not - it's a calender language.
[08:18] <NCommander> Oh good
[08:18] <ajmitch> some compiler theory isn't that unusual in a lot of CS schools
[08:18] <Hobbsee> \sh: i did that on the basis of "upstream says it's fixed, so it probably is"
[08:18] <\sh> Hobbsee: fun part, recording mono sound works...and doesn't crash, recording two channels -> same output
[08:18] <NCommander> Our CS program believes in Java only
[08:19] <ajmitch> CS at the uni I went to is switching from java to python for its introductory courses
[08:19] <NCommander> Which is why I promptly left when I came to the conclusion that most professors have no idea what the real world needs
[08:19] <NCommander> I don't mind if they teach java or require it
[08:19] <wgrant> ajmitch: Mine is switching from C to Python.
[08:19] <ajmitch> but they do a lot of C after that
[08:19] <NCommander> Mine was straight java
[08:19] <wgrant> And then C in later years, of course.
[08:19] <NCommander> I think you get MIPS assembler in your fourth year
[08:19] <wgrant> And Java for one subject.
[08:19] <NCommander> But no C AFAIK
[08:19] <wgrant> How can they avoid C!?
[08:19] <NCommander> They should teach C first IMHO
[08:20] <NCommander> Using a garbage collected language is a horrible learning tool
[08:20] <wgrant> Teaching C to non-programmers is stupid.
[08:20] <NCommander> Because it teachs all the wrong lessons
[08:20] <NCommander> The CS program here is a joke I found
[08:20] <NCommander> All theory, no praticial
[08:20] <NCommander> We do have a computer enginneering tech class which is what IMHO, CS should be, but its too heavy on the hardware side for me to enjoy
[08:21] <NCommander> I personally believe though that using garbage collected languages as a learning tool is a joke
[08:22] <NCommander> Get people not to depend on GC()s, or else they'll never learn to apperiate the full consequence of bad code.
[08:22] <directhex> i know first year rocket scientists at southampton were given some C
[08:22] <directhex> and my wife picked up some C from her MUD days
[08:22] <NCommander> like I said, its a joke here
[08:22] <NCommander> The local LUGS users know more then the graduates
[08:22] <NCommander> (five of them are people who left the CS major for the same reason I did)
[08:23] <NCommander> at least in practical skills
[08:23] <directhex> most CS degrees i know of start with "easy" languages then move down to lower level things, rather than the reverse
[08:24] <directhex> my degree was mostly java based, possibly because they could teach principles and data structures and algorithm design without needing to do nearly as much unrelated groundwork first
[08:24] <NCommander> our java classes was programming 101
[08:24] <NCommander> And I mean like actual 101
[08:25] <NCommander> You know, this is a statement, you print text like this, meet objects, etc.
[08:25] <NCommander> About the only thing I got out of two quarters of that class was a crash course in generics since JDK 5 was released over winter break :-)
[08:25] <directhex> i prefer the top-down approach these days. i think a beginner will learn more overall starting with ubuntu & ending on LFS rather than the reverse
[08:26] <NCommander> No, I understand what you mean
[08:26] <wgrant> directhex: That is my thinking.
[08:26] <NCommander> A friend of mine told me the following
[08:26] <NCommander> "If your going to write code, use smart data structures and stupid code"
[08:27] <directhex> within reason
[08:27] <NCommander> Of course :-)
[08:27] <NCommander> My big issue with my uni's CS courses is that data structures weren't taught until the second year
[08:27] <StevenK> NCommander: You can't teach data structures with no groundwork
[08:28] <directhex> iirc first year CS students at my alma mater write a basic kernel in first year now
[08:28] <directhex> when i was there we had to design our own malloc
[08:28] <NCommander> I learned C from a Wrox book that taught basic structures
[08:28] <NCommander> I dunno
[08:29] <NCommander> I find in general a CS degree is somewhat overrated
[08:29] <directhex> well, i don't specifically use what i l;earnt on my degree to do my job
[08:29] <directhex> i use what i learnt in my spare time during those 3 years
[08:30] <NCommander> Sure, thats how its supposed to work
[08:30] <directhex> but that's not to say those years weren't valuable at some level
[08:30] <NCommander> I just find that most CS students seem to lack the ability to think criticially
[08:30] <NCommander> ALthough I think thats a department issue here
[08:30] <directhex> s/CS //
[08:30] <NCommander> Vs. an actual CS issue
[08:30] <NCommander> Ok
[08:30] <NCommander> POint taken
[08:30] <directhex> you wouldn't believe some of the dunces here doing postgrad degrees
[08:30] <NCommander> Oh yeah
[08:31] <NCommander> I would
[08:31] <NCommander> I work ITS helpdesk
[08:31] <NCommander> Had to help a postgrad install Office cause the autoplay didn't kick in
[08:31] <NCommander> This was a CS postgrad
[08:31] <StevenK> So, you would believe some of the dunces teaching postgrad courses, too?
[08:31] <directhex> i mean phd students at the world's premier university who don't understand elevators
[08:31] <NCommander> How do people like that not wash out is beyond me o_o;
[08:31] <directhex> *literally* didn't understand elevators. the guy's an inorganic chemist
[08:32] <NCommander> *hits head*
[08:32] <NCommander> How.
[08:32] <NCommander> Ugh
[08:32] <NCommander> That just hurts my brain
[08:32] <directhex> he's very special that one
[08:33] <NCommander> At some point, I think I came to the conclusion that a BS was a very expensive piece of TP that told employeers that someone can sit for four years and not get in trouble
[08:33] <directhex> we also had the guy who spent 3 days organising a meeting, then on the day of the meeting, sends an email asking if he can arrange a meeting, as if he was on some drug-fuelled bender for those 3 days & didn't know they'd happened
[08:33] <NCommander> I changed after my second year from Information Tech (after leaving CS) to Criminal Justice and I haven't looked back
[08:33] <NCommander> I'm actually learning things and enjoying myself
[08:34] <directhex> i was sick of my degree by the time i got to third year. too much education makes one feel ill
[08:35] <NCommander> Well, two years of CJ
[08:35] <NCommander> And I totally love it
[08:35] <NCommander> I'll keep doing tech stuff though Ubuntu and such
[08:35] <NCommander> And if I can get an employeer who realizes CS degrees aren't really all that important
[08:36] <NCommander> Otherwise, I plan to go on and become a sheriff up in Alaska
[08:36] <directhex> http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200808/errord/orangefull.png #spot the problem
[08:37] <NCommander> ahaha
[08:37] <NCommander> I already saw this
[08:37] <NCommander> I'm a moderator on the daily wtf :-)
[08:37] <wgrant> Urgh MFD.
[08:38] <directhex> NCommander, that's cheating!
[08:38] <NCommander> directhex, they've updated the image
[08:38] <NCommander> Now its got the thedailywtf next to the NSFW item
[08:39] <StevenK> Haha
[08:39] <directhex> NSFW is a bit of a generalization
[08:39] <wgrant> And the dozens upon dozens of comments saying that...
[08:39] <directhex> if you work for gawker media's porn review blog, for example, i'm pretty sure it's not nsfw
[08:39] <NCommander> ...
[08:39] <soren> Or if you work from home..
[08:40] <NCommander> Relatively speaking
[08:40] <wgrant> directhex: I suspect that that's a fairly rare position.
[08:40] <tacone> bobbo: here ?
[08:40] <StevenK> What soren said :-P
[08:40] <jml> soren: depends on who else works from home :)
[08:40] <directhex> wgrant, sadly so :'(
[08:40] <StevenK> Haha
[08:40] <NCommander> I don't think I want MyFirstSexTeacher however popping up on my employors desktop
[08:40] <soren> jml: Point :)
[08:40] <wgrant> Oh no, attack of the Canonical people!
[08:40] <StevenK> Incoming!
[08:40] <soren> wgrant: You forgot "evil".
[08:41] <soren> :)
[08:41] <jml> nyargh, we come to exploit your community-driven off-topic conversations
[08:41] <wgrant> soren: Please wait while I grab that blog post with its creative insults.
[08:41] <jml> we will harness the power of off-topicness to RULE THE WORLD
[08:42] <NCommander> Quickly, we must all go to #canonical and flood the place with ontopic stuff
[08:42] <soren> jml: Or at least power a small city.
[08:42] <NCommander> The future of #ubuntu-motu depends on it!
[08:42] <directhex> less babble, more main sponsorship, canonical people.
[08:42] <soren> NCommander: I'm not sure there's any such thing.
[08:42] <jml> soren: heh heh
[08:42] <soren> NCommander: ontopic stuff in #canonical that is. I'm not denying the existence of the channel itself.
[08:42] <directhex> also, find me some packing tape so i can mail this hard disk to SGI
[08:42] <NCommander> It's a pity non-sense isn't a viable power source
[08:42] <Arc_> hey
[08:43] <NCommander> The random bouts of insanity in thise room could power the world
[08:43] <wgrant> That I cannot deny.
[08:43] <NCommander> I mean, a few weeks ago, we had someone trying to make Ubuntu Developer trading cards
[08:43] <dholbach> awesome idea
[08:44] <NCommander> it made slangasek go WTF
[08:44] <Arc_> so the AGPLv3 license issue seems to be resolved
[08:44] <directhex> mjg59, i choose you!
[08:44] <wgrant> Arc_: [citation needed]
[08:44]  * NCommander uses a FTBFS against didrocks
[08:44] <NCommander> er directhex
[08:44] <Arc_> wgrant: Mark Shuttleworth in an email to the community council, technical council, and myself:
[08:44] <NCommander> Whats really sad is if we put our heads together, we could probably make a viable game
[08:44] <directhex> trading cards, pokemon cards, same difference
[08:44] <Arc_> "My view is that the AGPLv3 is a free license and I would have no reservations about supporting the main / universe inclusion of an AGPLv3 package."
[08:45] <NCommander> The goal is to be the first to release, and you have packages, bugs, blueprints, translations, FTBFS, and random events
[08:45] <wgrant> Well, he would say that.
[08:45] <wgrant> But he might well be correct.
[08:45] <Arc_> given that the community council also has one of the AGPLv3 co-authors on it..
[08:45] <Arc_> so I return to ask what the process is
[08:46] <soren> wgrant: Was this what you were looking for: "triblodyte bricordion nickerbook"
[08:46] <wgrant> soren: That's the one.
[08:46] <NCommander> What's the story with the AGPLv3?
[08:46] <wgrant> It's creative; I'll give him that.
[08:46] <soren> wgrant: Now, if we could somehow harness the power of the pointlessness of that discussion, we'd be close to world domination already.
[08:47] <Arc_> NCommander: the AGPLv3 is identical to the GPLv3 except section 13, which it adds the requirement that if you host an online app (ie, a webapp, game server, etc) that's modified from what has been distributed, you must offer to all users your changes
[08:47] <wgrant> soren: But Canonical is evil!
[08:47] <Arc_> its to close the "ASP Loophole" in the GPL
[08:47] <NCommander> right, I"m aware of that
[08:47] <directhex> what's debian-legal's take on AGPLv3?
[08:47] <wgrant> Debian bug #495721
[08:47] <Arc_> directhex: the consensus seems to be that AGPLv3 is DFSG-nonfree
[08:47] <NCommander> Oh, there is dispute on if it is a free (DFSG) license?
[08:47] <wgrant> NCommander: Correct.
[08:48] <NCommander> At first glance, it seems to pass the d-legal evilness tests
[08:48] <Arc_> which is why I sent an email to the Ubuntu councils, since Ubuntu tends to be more sane when it comes to license freeness
[08:48] <NCommander> but reading this
[08:48] <NCommander> I don't know
[08:48] <wgrant> Whether we are more sane is debatable.
[08:48] <NCommander> I don't like the AGPL because it feels in many ways impratical
[08:48] <NCommander> wgrant, sanity is not part of Ubuntu
[08:49] <wgrant> In my mind it is non-free.
[08:49] <NCommander> At least, its not synced from Debian
[08:49] <wgrant> As I can't safely modify it.
[08:49] <Arc_> NCommander: the issue is not whether anyone likes it or not, projects are using it, and people are voting through their use or non-use of it
[08:49] <NCommander> RMS is correct that the ASP loophole is valid
[08:49] <directhex> hm, i wonder if my details are part of that "server ebayed contains millions of bank details" news story
[08:49] <Arc_> much like the BSD vs GPL issue, we could argue it for years, but in the end it's code released under the licenses that the philosophy is worked out
[08:50] <directhex> i should ask andy to grep for me
[08:50] <NCommander> But I think there is a point where even he's decided to push idealogy far ahead of everything else
[08:50] <wgrant> NCommander: I agree fully.
[08:50] <NCommander> Having had an opprtunity to briefly meet with RMS
[08:50] <didrocks> NCommander: ? :)
[08:50] <NCommander> He's right on a lot of issues, but he has the stance of no-surrender, no giving up
[08:50] <Arc_> NCommander: I don't believe RMS was the force behind the AGPLv3, it was several FSF board members and lawyers with the SFLC
[08:50] <NCommander> I'm not aware
[08:50] <wgrant> Arc_: There is a significant practical problem with the AGPL. It's not like BSD vs. GPL.
[08:50] <wgrant> GPL doesn't restrict use.
[08:51] <NCommander> Actually, RMS blessed the AGPL
[08:51] <Arc_> wgrant: let's not get back into that discussion.
[08:51] <NCommander> When I was a FSF Savannah admin, we were told to explicately allow AGPL apps
[08:51] <wgrant> Arc_: It is core to the issue.
[08:51] <Arc_> NCommander: yes he did, but he was not the force driving it
[08:51] <NCommander> Normally, we only accept packages that are license compatible with the GPL current revision
[08:51] <Arc_> wgrant: I am not here to debate licenses.  I am here asking for information on how packages get included in Ubuntu
[08:52] <NCommander> Well, until the issue is disputed
[08:52] <wgrant> Arc_: Upon entry you mentioned the AGPL issue.
[08:52] <NCommander> Shove it into Multiverse
[08:52] <wgrant> And packages don't enter Ubuntu unless their license is fine.
[08:52] <Arc_> the package in question is not, nor will, be in the Debian repository
[08:52] <NCommander> wgrant, AGPL is acceptable for multiverse
[08:52] <wgrant> Nor do they enter Ubuntu a day before FF.
[08:52] <NCommander> Oh, thats true ;-)
[08:52] <Arc_> NCommander: the issue seems to have already been resolved, AGPLv3 is acceptable for universe.
[08:53]  * directhex grumbles about having failed to get mono-basic into debian before ubuntu ff
[08:53] <NCommander> ugh
[08:53] <wgrant> Nor do they hopefully enter Ubuntu if somebody asserts that it will not be in Debian without good reason.
[08:53] <NCommander> That's going to be rather interesting if Debian says its not
[08:53] <Arc_> let me put it this way; if the package in question had to go into multiverse, we would not submit it for inclusion in any repository but only offer it on our website
[08:53] <NCommander> cause that means now non-free packages from Debian may enter universe
[08:53] <wgrant> Arc_: I believe a chance exists that Mark is not impartial in this matter.
[08:53] <Arc_> NCommander: welcome to reality, they already are.
[08:54] <NCommander> wgrant, what was marks relationship to AGPL?
[08:54] <wgrant> NCommander: He suggested that it be used by Launchpad.
[08:54] <Arc_> Ubuntu has considered the GNU FDL a free license and included packages into universe/main which debian includes in non-free
[08:54] <NCommander> ....
[08:54] <NCommander> ew
[08:54] <NCommander> I thought I hated LP being closed
[08:54] <NCommander> But that's just plain ugly
[08:54] <directhex> when did FDL start being free?
[08:55] <NCommander> FDL?
[08:55] <Arc_> guys, please.  I'm here asking about packaging, not licensing.
[08:55] <wgrant> Free Documentation License.
[08:55] <directhex> the documentation license with invariant sections
[08:55] <wgrant> Which isn't so free.
[08:55] <NCommander> I thought the FDL was free as long as there were no invarient sections
[08:56] <directhex> if i can say "this documentation is free, except all the sections are invariant" kinda goes against freedom
[08:56] <didrocks> Is it me or all *ubuntu* ML seems to be down (devel, motu, intrepid-changes) ? Or nobody's working ? :)
[08:56] <Arc_> what is the difference between Main and Universe, in terms of the process packages get to be included in each
[08:56] <wgrant> didrocks: We're all busy debating the merits of the AGPL :P
[08:56] <didrocks> wgrant: I see that :)
[08:56] <Arc_> is there a better channel for me to ask about Ubuntu package policy?
[08:56] <NCommander> Arc_, nothing enters main directly, it goes into universe, and if it needs to be supported by Canonical, you file an MIR to make it go to Main
[08:56] <wgrant> Arc_: Packages almost always enter universe first, They may then get promoted.
[08:57] <NCommander> Arc_, normally, its here.
[08:57] <NCommander> But we're debating the AGPL at the moment
[08:57] <directhex> Arc_, main inclusion needs a damn good reason and/or sexual favours in the right places
[08:57] <wgrant> didrocks: Keep it family friendly...
[08:57] <wgrant> Gah.
[08:57] <NCommander> that was a visual I didn't need
[08:57] <wgrant> directhex: ^^
[08:57] <NCommander> then again, we were talking about that NSFW site before
[08:57] <Arc_> debating the AGPL would be better in a channel like #FSF would it not?
[08:57] <directhex> ice cream, then. everyone loves ice cream.
[08:57] <NCommander> this is Ubuntu specific
[08:57] <didrocks> wgrant: twice this morning :)
[08:57] <NCommander> Techinically we could chat about this in -devel
[08:58] <wgrant> didrocks: So I noticed.
[08:58] <Arc_> As I've been told MOTU doesn't make policy, the technical council and community council does.
[08:58] <Arc_> not regarding licensing, at least
[08:58] <NCommander> The community council doesn't make policy unless we can't decide on something
[08:58] <directhex> considering i've been directhex since the mid 1990s, i blame didrocks
[08:58] <wgrant> In a matter like this, I believe it would be inappropriate for them to hand down a judgement without further discussion.
[08:58] <NCommander> whenever I see directhex, I think of directx
[08:58] <wgrant> Particularly given what has happened in Debian.
[08:58] <NCommander> wgrant, what happened in Debian?
[08:59] <didrocks> directhex: I am didrocks from 1998 only, sorry :p
[08:59] <directhex> NCommander, yes, that was the idea. directx was new and hip when i picked the pseudonym
[08:59] <wgrant> Well, the license is ambiguous, and a has a use restriction.
[08:59] <NCommander> Obviously you never programmed against it
[08:59] <NCommander> wgrant, I find the AGPL to be worse then the damn adversing clause
[08:59] <directhex> NCommander, no, because i would have been about twelve at the time
[08:59] <NCommander> And its so freaking vague
[08:59] <directhex> NCommander, and far too busy discovering internet porn
[09:00] <wgrant> NCommander: Correct.
[09:00] <directhex> wait, family friendly. gah
[09:00] <NCommander> Fail
[09:00] <Arc_> wgrant: that is your opinion.  not everyone agrees with your assessment.  use restriction would violate software freedom #0 and, if commonly held, would have never been released.
[09:00] <directhex> sorry.
[09:00] <didrocks> wgrant: can you just confirm that you didn't received any email from those ml from the last 8 hours?
[09:00] <NCommander> Is there any mechanism where the TB can be overruled?
[09:00] <wgrant> NCommander: sabdfl.
[09:00] <directhex> NCommander, isn't that what the "dictator" part means?
[09:00] <wgrant> I don't believe we've had an official ruling yet, have we?
[09:01] <NCommander> It sounds like Mark though has a vested interest
[09:01] <wgrant> There are other members of the CC and TB.
[09:01] <wgrant> And we've heard nothing official from anybody at all.
[09:01] <Arc_> they've been discussing it for days
[09:01] <wgrant> Let us not jump to conclusions about official decisions.
[09:01] <NCommander> But what's the fun of speculation then wgrant ;-)
[09:01] <directhex> bah. does anyone have any parcel tape i can borrow?
[09:02] <NCommander> directhex, if you live in Rochester ....
[09:02] <NCommander> Based on the few chats I've had on the AGPL
[09:02] <wgrant> didrocks: I've received many emails on intrepid-changes over the past several hours.
[09:02] <Arc_> you know I came on here before asking about this, and left without answers because the people here then, too, were more interested in license banter
[09:02] <wgrant> The last being some 37 minutes ago.
[09:02] <NCommander> I won't be suprised if the developer community had a massive backlash if AGPL was deemed to meet DFSG for Ubuntu
[09:02] <wgrant> Arc_: You did bring up the licensing issue.
[09:03] <wgrant> And it is an issue.
[09:03] <wgrant> And people wish to discuss it, so it shall be discussed.
[09:03] <Arc_> forget I mentioned the AGPLv3
[09:03] <Arc_> I'm asking about package policy
[09:03] <wgrant> What's the actual question?
[09:04] <Arc_> ok so everything goes into Universe first, and it goes through the reve website to do so
[09:04] <NCommander> Strictly speaking, it doesn't have to go through REVU
[09:04] <Hobbsee> yes, unless the licence says it's unsuitable for universe.
[09:04] <Hobbsee> NCommander: it usually, does.
[09:05]  * NCommander has has one package enter universe without passing through REVU
[09:05] <Arc_> Hobbsee: if the license is unsuitable for universe, we would not have it included at all, but rather only offer it for download from our site
[09:05] <wgrant> Arc_: Why not include it in multiverse?
[09:05] <NCommander> Arc_, if it was unsuitable for universe, it can simply be placed in multiverse
[09:05] <Hobbsee> Arc_: you asked a general question, i answered it :)
[09:05] <Arc_> because that would be false advertising as proprietary software
[09:05]  * Hobbsee blinks
[09:05]  * NCommander double-takes
[09:05] <wgrant> vlc isn't proprietary. mplayer isn't proprietary.
[09:06] <NCommander> There are GPL-pieces of softare in multiverse
[09:06] <NCommander> I'd put it at the majority actually
[09:06] <wgrant> Those are just two examples of things that are in multiverse for other reasons that source Freeness.
[09:06] <Arc_> I was told that multiverse == nonfree
[09:06] <NCommander> Arc_, no, multiverse is non-free, contrib, doesn't meet DFSG
[09:06] <wgrant> It also includes things that have usage restrictions.
[09:06] <Hobbsee> Arc_: correct, but nonfree != propriatory, all the time.
[09:07] <wgrant> Such as patents, or soon AGPL's clause 13, I hope.
[09:07] <Hobbsee> the usage restrictions, etc, ... make it nonfree - but not proprietory.
[09:07] <Arc_> multiverse is unsuitable for Main, correct?
[09:07] <NCommander> Arc_, yes
[09:07] <wgrant> Correct.
[09:07] <NCommander> THere is restricted, but someone has to litterialy die to get a package to go there
[09:07] <Arc_> then there is no point in inclusion
[09:07] <directhex> restricted is multiverse for main
[09:07] <wgrant> But most packages are unsuitable for main.
[09:07] <wgrant> Arc_: Huh?
[09:07] <NCommander> why the heck do you want your package to go into main
[09:07] <NCommander> The vast majority do not leave multiverse
[09:07] <wgrant> Arc_: So there's no point having it at all if it can't go into main!?
[09:07] <Hobbsee> NCommander: to get it installed by default, usually.
[09:08] <NCommander> Hobbsee, the CDs are so full that we're getting to the point we need to prune them back
[09:08] <Arc_> that is not what I was implying, but I'm not feeling a great deal of patience right now to explain
[09:08] <Hobbsee> NCommander: don't tell me about cd sizes.  i'm part of the release team...
[09:08] <directhex> NCommander, mono will shrink for ubuntu+2
[09:08] <wgrant> NCommander: They have been for years.
[09:08] <NCommander> We should just remove mono from the CDs
[09:08] <NCommander> Problem solved for another year
[09:08] <NCommander> :-)
[09:08]  * NCommander runs
[09:08] <Hobbsee> NCommander: :)
[09:08]  * directhex drops an altix on NCommander
[09:08] <NCommander> Arc_, I'm an Xubuntu developer.  O NOEZ!
[09:09] <Arc_> NCommander: I did not mean "there's no point if it can't enter main".
[09:09] <Hobbsee> oh dear.
[09:09]  * Hobbsee has already dealt with one of them today.
[09:09] <StevenK> Haha
[09:09] <mwiegand> speaking of proprietary, we (= the OpenVAS project) have prepared packages to replace the nessus server packages (OpenVAS is the still-GPL fork of Nessus)
[09:09] <NCommander> Actually, I was just suggsting mono's removal cause its a little overkill to have both java and mono in the default install if only one or two apps depend on the later
[09:09] <StevenK> Didn't Nessus already change name?
[09:10] <NCommander> (although I think there is a non-free Xfce package)
[09:10] <mwiegand> is there any chance the packages could make it into intrepid?
[09:10] <wgrant> Arc_: What precisely did you mean?
[09:10] <NCommander> mwiegand, if its in universe already
[09:10] <directhex> seriously though. mono's dependency chain should shrink a good 25%+ post-intrepid
[09:10] <Arc_> ok so how long does REVU typically take, given a situation where the packaging is well done and prepared by upstream, and what alternatives to REVU are available
[09:10] <mwiegand> StevenK: no, Nessus is still Nessus
[09:10] <NCommander> Arc_, we haven't have a REVU day this cycle
[09:10] <NCommander> It won't be included until intrepid+1
[09:10] <directhex> NCommander, which java is in the default install?
[09:10] <NCommander> (novemberish)
[09:10] <wgrant> Arc_: Well, Intrepid closes tomorrow.
[09:10] <Arc_> "REVU day"?
[09:10] <NCommander> I thin jre6
[09:11] <directhex> NCommander, so that's about twice the size of mono, then? which apps use it?
[09:11] <NCommander> Arc_, roughly speaking, unless a miracle happens, and you can get 2 advocations within the next 24 hours
[09:11] <wgrant> And we find that upstream packaging is often problematic.
[09:11] <NCommander> Its not going to see a release this time around
[09:11] <Arc_> we're not looking at Intrepid, we're looking at 9.04
[09:11] <wgrant> (this is a generalisation; yours might be fine)
[09:11] <NCommander> Yeah
[09:11] <NCommander> intrepid+1 == 9.04
[09:11] <wgrant> The alternative to REVU is Debian.
[09:12] <NCommander> mentors isn't extactly happy these days
[09:12] <Arc_> we're nowhere near ready for 1.0-beta3 release, currently our trunk still has known multicore segfault issues and several thousands of lines of code remaining to be refactored before that'll be resolved
[09:12] <NCommander> they're dealing with their queue issues
[09:12] <mwiegand> NCommander: the client packages have already replaced nessusclient in intrepid, the server packages are in the Debian NEW queue
[09:12] <mwiegand> so right now in intrepid there is the openvas-client, but the nessusd as well
[09:13] <Arc_> ok so REVU and Debian are the only ways to get a package included in universe?
[09:13] <NCommander> mwiegand, so all the packages are in universe/intrepid right now?
[09:13] <NCommander> Arc_, if its part of a CDDS, it can also be synced into Ubuntu
[09:13] <wgrant> Arc_: Pretty much.
[09:13] <Arc_> what is CDDS
[09:13] <wgrant> NCommander: Debatable.
[09:13] <NCommander> er, CDS
[09:13] <wgrant> And rare.
[09:13] <wgrant> And frowned upon.
[09:13] <NCommander> I asked, and I got a yes
[09:13] <NCommander> But yeah, its really rare
[09:14] <Arc_> I've not seen that acronym or project name before
[09:14] <NCommander> CDS = CUstom Debian Distribution
[09:14] <NCommander> Er
[09:14] <NCommander> ...
[09:14] <wgrant> NCommander: You mean CDD?
[09:14] <NCommander> Yeah
[09:14] <NCommander> Christ, I'm out of it
[09:14] <mwiegand> NCommander: from OpenVAS only -client and libopenvas
[09:14] <stefanlsd> Are packages accepted into debian more easily then through REVU into ubuntu?  - generall speaking...
[09:14] <directhex> dear DHL, please make the "email address" box bigger than the "surname" box. love directhex
[09:14] <directhex> stefanlsd, with a decent sponsor
[09:14] <NCommander> mwiegand, it might be worth granting a feature freeze exception once they pass the Debian NEW queue
[09:15] <Arc_> Debian isn't an option for us, so I'm guessing REVU is the only path
[09:15] <NCommander> Replacing non-free with free is always a good thing
[09:15] <mwiegand> NCommander: so should I file a needs-packaging bug for the remaining components?
[09:15] <NCommander> mwiegand, wait, I thought the components were already packaged
[09:15] <james_w> Arc_: has it actually been REJECTed from the Debian NEW queue?
[09:15] <Arc_> now the MOTU-games group has defuncted, is there a MOTU-python group active? or is there another path to get inclusion?
[09:15] <mwiegand> NCommander: they are, just not in ubuntu
[09:16] <wgrant> Arc_: The groups are not particularly relevant.
[09:16] <Arc_> james_w: we have respectfully asked not to be included in Debian, and our request has been honored.
[09:16] <NCommander> Oh, ok, submitted to Debian I assume mwiegand?
[09:16] <james_w> Arc_: why did you ask?
[09:16] <mwiegand> NCommander: so I'm unsure as to what we have to do in order to get it into ubuntu
[09:16] <wgrant> Deliberately not being included in Debian seems very... strange.
[09:16] <Arc_> wgrant: well a Python-based 3d game engine isn't going to appeal to every MOTU member, I'm assuming
[09:16] <Arc_> james_w: ask what?
[09:17] <james_w> Arc_: ask not to be included in Debian?
[09:17] <mwiegand> NCommander: see http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/openvas-server_1.0.1-1.html and http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/openvas-plugins_1.0.2-1.html
[09:17] <NCommander> mwiegand, well, wait for it to go through the NEW queue, and enter unstable/experimental
[09:17] <james_w> mwiegand: you can file a "sync" request once it's out of NEW
[09:17] <NCommander> If we're still in soft freeze, I recommend then you file the sync request, and then ask for a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
[09:17] <Arc_> james_w: answering that question would risk diverting from my current line of questioning, I can answer in private if you'd like.
[09:17] <james_w> mwiegand: for Intrepid they will need a freeze exception unless it makes it out today.
[09:17] <huats> moring everyone
[09:18] <huats> hey james_w !
[09:18] <james_w> Arc_: sure
[09:18] <james_w> hey huats
[09:18] <NCommander> james_w, replacing a non-free with a free package (which appears to be based off the same codebase) should be ground for a FFE
[09:18] <james_w> NCommander: I agree, but I have no say in the matter
[09:18] <Arc_> REVU requires 2 MOTU members to do a code review, if I read the website correctly - this code review is several thousand lines of an obscure Python/C hybrid language
[09:19] <NCommander> Er
[09:19] <mwiegand> james_w: I don't know, I have to talk with our Debian packagers about that
[09:19] <NCommander> Its not a code review
[09:19] <directhex> it's a packaging review, not a code review
[09:19] <directhex> lintian cleanness, valid debian/rules, etc
[09:19] <Arc_> then why only provide a source package?
[09:19] <NCommander> mwiegand, wait for the package to leave NEW, then talk to cody-somerville, he can tell you if a freeze exception will be done
[09:19] <james_w> mwiegand: it's not likely to, but as long as it makes it out within the next couple of weeks you should be ok.
[09:20] <james_w> mwiegand: the sooner the better though, so I hope it doesn't get REJECTed.
[09:20] <NCommander> Arc_, REVU only accepts source packages by design, not much point to allowing binaries uploads which may or may not be built from valid source packages
[09:20] <mwiegand> thanks, that sounds good
[09:20] <NCommander> The main archive only accepts them so all packages are built in a clean-room environment
[09:20] <Arc_> NCommander: who builds them, then?
[09:20] <james_w> mwiegand: assuming you get the freeze exception that is.
[09:20] <NCommander> Arc_, automatic build daemons
[09:20] <NCommander> Same as Debian
[09:20] <NCommander> (although DDs can do binary uploads to Debian directly)
[09:20] <Arc_> I'm not familiar with that process.
[09:21] <NCommander> Roughly speaking
[09:21] <NCommander> When you package something for debian/ubuntu
[09:21] <StevenK> NCommander: Unless you're blocked :-P
[09:21] <NCommander> Typing debuild -B generates binary packages
[09:21] <Arc_> are we suppost to add a special script to inform debuild how to do this?
[09:21] <NCommander> No ...
[09:22] <NCommander> Arc_, you need to review the basics of packaging
[09:22] <james_w> debian/rules
[09:22] <directhex> james_w, yes, it does
[09:22] <NCommander> The buildds generate these in a clean chroot'ed environment to make sure that packages can be built from source and to make sure no binary package has been meddled with
[09:22] <directhex> HAHAHAHAHA, i'm sure nobody's made that joke before. i'm a comic genius i am
[09:22] <james_w> directhex: yes, yes you are :-)
[09:22] <Arc_> NCommander: I'm asking how it knows how to build from source.  I know how Portage does it, for example, as I've been a Gentoo packager in the past
[09:23] <NCommander> Arc_, ok, ebuild == debian/rules file
[09:23] <james_w> Arc_: you didn't /msg me to explain your reasoning for asking not to be in Debian.
[09:23] <NCommander> the rules file is a makefile with a set of targets that explain how to configure, patch (if necessary), and build it
[09:23] <directhex> Arc_, because there's not much else to do with a dsc/diff.gz/orig.tar.gz combo
[09:23] <Arc_> I've built a few Ubuntu packages before (binary only) for configuration for our computer recycling program
[09:23] <NCommander> ANd then stages into a proper holding directory, and then uses debhelper to build the deb
[09:23] <Arc_> james_w: hold on a sec
[09:23] <james_w> Arc_: if you don't explain it then it sounds like you are being hostile to Debian, which won't win you any friends in Ubuntu
[09:24] <NCommander> While sometimes getting a package into Debian can be a pain, its for the good of both Debian, and Ubuntu (and Ubuntu descendants), that stuff goes upstream
[09:24] <NCommander> I have (attempted to) submit things back to Debian
[09:24] <NCommander> although slangasek took off screaming when he saw upstream shipped a debian folder
[09:24] <directhex> NCommander, which is why most of my packaging goes into debian, and i just hang out here to harass people for merges/syncs of my work
[09:25] <NCommander> I have too many issues finding sponsors
[09:25] <NCommander> Once I get DD-ship
[09:25] <wgrant> I am strongly opposed to keeping things out of Debian.
[09:25] <Arc_> james_w: I will talk to you in a moment.
[09:25] <NCommander> Which should be soon, then everything I do will be going into debian
[09:25] <NCommander> then synced to Ubuntu
[09:25] <Arc_> NCommander: so the debian/rules file is included in the source package?
[09:25] <NCommander> No
[09:25] <NCommander> Ok
[09:25] <NCommander> a Debian source package is three things
[09:25] <NCommander> a .orig.tar.gz, which is simply an unchanged* tarball
[09:26] <directhex> NCommander, thankfully, debian-mono is an active team with multiple sponsors, including an ubuntu dev for that end of things
[09:26] <NCommander> * - there are rare cases where this tarball must be repackaged, but outside the scope of discusion
[09:26] <NCommander> .diff.gz - this is a giant diff file that is applied the original source to create the debian/ folder
[09:26] <Arc_> NCommander: I'm assuming either a bz2->gz conversion or .orig.tar.bz2 is acceptable
[09:26] <StevenK> NCommander: Along with other Debian changes
[09:26] <directhex> Arc_, yes, and pretty common
[09:26] <NCommander> Arc_, In debian it is, but ATM, Ubuntu still rejects .bz2/lzma
[09:26] <StevenK> Arc_: Usually, bunzip and gzip -9c
[09:27] <NCommander> It can also contain source patches, but this is frowned upon in favor of a proper patching system
[09:27] <NCommander> and a .dsc which is just a descriptive file
[09:27] <Arc_> the .dsc contains the build rules?
[09:27] <NCommander> No
[09:27] <NCommander> I told you, the debian/rules file does
[09:27] <NCommander> Ok
[09:28] <NCommander> the diff file is applied to the original source
[09:28] <NCommander> That creates the debian folder and everything in it
[09:28] <Arc_> where does the debian/rules file get included? in the diff?
[09:28] <NCommander> yes
[09:28] <directhex> in the diff, yes
[09:28] <Arc_> ok.
[09:28] <directhex> other important debian/* files go into the diff, like changelog and control
[09:28] <NCommander> Every debian package has five files min.
[09:28] <Arc_> now a pointed and odd question; in order to build from source, an additional package is needed that is not a -dev of a normal package
[09:29] <Arc_> after that it's just a "python setup.py install"
[09:29] <NCommander> That's fine
[09:29] <NCommander> Just add it under Build-Depends
[09:29] <Arc_> is that additional build package a dependency of the source package?
[09:29] <directhex> Arc_, if it's in the archive, that's absolutely fine
[09:29] <directhex> Arc_, build dependencies are defined in debian/control
[09:29] <Arc_> ok
[09:29] <flohack> Hi! Is an apt wizards here? I'd like to know how apt chooses which real package to install if a virtual package is required as a dependency.
[09:29] <Arc_> AH.  debian is the directory, yes I've seen that.  ok.  things are clicking now.
[09:30] <NCommander> Arc_, rules are sorta like ebuilds on steriods
[09:30] <NCommander> control is the part of an ebuild file that defines what binary packages are created, and the metadata
[09:30] <NCommander> Changelog is extactly what it sounds like
[09:30] <flohack> My problem is that installing linux-headers installs and old version of the headers package (for a kernel which is not even installed).
[09:30] <stefanlsd> Arc_: have a look at the following - there are some nice guides there. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
[09:31] <NCommander> Arc_, grab the source to the Debian hello package
[09:31] <NCommander> Its a pretty clear cut example on how you can do it
[09:31] <directhex> flohack, which package exactly?
[09:31] <Arc_> Pyrex <IP_ADDRESS> seems to be available.  only concern I have there is Pyrex versioning is extremely unstable, and what builds with one version may not build with a later version
[09:31] <StevenK> flohack: apt-cache policy can help distill what will be picked to be installed
[09:31] <Arc_> er, <IP_ADDRESS>
[09:31] <NCommander> Arc_, again, thats fine
[09:31] <NCommander> Arc_, I assume pyrex generates a library?
[09:32] <Arc_> Pyrex pre-processes our source language into .c
[09:32] <flohack> directhex: I installed dkms, which depends on linux-headers and linux-headers-2.6.24-16-generic got installed instead of linux-headers-2.6.24-19-generic
[09:32] <directhex> Arc_, build-depends can define version number requirements
[09:32] <NCommander> I think he was referring to packages built by Pyrex
[09:32] <directhex> flohack, i'm showing no sign of a linux-headers at all
[09:32] <Arc_> it's a convience language to make writing Python modules more sane
[09:32] <NCommander> heh
[09:33] <StevenK> flohack: linux-headers-2.6.24-16-generic is in hardy, linux-headers-2.6.24-19-generic is in -updates
[09:33] <flohack> directhex: ?? Sorry?
[09:33] <NCommander> Arc_, is it a problem with the source that pyrex accepts changes with each minor release, or just building pyrex itself?
[09:33] <Arc_> we're in the process of replacing it but that'll be at least beta-4.  we're the largest package, by a long shot, using Pyrex.
[09:33] <directhex> flohack, jms@osc-franzibald:~$ apt-cache policy linux-headers | grep Candidate
[09:33] <directhex>   Candidate: (none)
[09:33] <flohack> StevenK: I enabled automatic upgrades, may that have something to do with it?
[09:34] <Arc_> we've hit the glass ceiling on what it can do and had to ask Pyrex's author to extend or fix many things to continue working on it, his code isn't very easy for others to work with
[09:34] <NCommander> Ouch
[09:34] <NCommander> You reminded me of gcl :-)
[09:34] <flohack> directhex: I get the same (none), what does that mean?
[09:34] <NCommander> Its probably the only package in Debian who has a 70MB diff file ;-)
[09:34] <directhex> Arc_, a build-depends looks like this: "Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5.0.0), dpkg-dev (>= 1.13.19)". you can say "i depend on foo version of bar package.
[09:34] <directhex> NCommander, OOo?
[09:34] <Arc_> directhex: awesome. ok.
[09:34] <directhex> flohack, it means no linux-headers package exists
[09:35] <wgrant> directhex: And then you FTBFS when a new version of the package is uploaded...
[09:35] <NCommander> directhex, OOo's diff file isn't four times the size of OOo
[09:35] <directhex> wgrant, yes!
[09:35] <directhex> NCommander, oh, erm, true
[09:35] <flohack> directhex: But aptitude show linux-headers shows it
[09:35] <Arc_> ok so we build a source package and it can be built automatically.  we upload the source and binary package to our website, and send the source package to REVU
[09:35] <james_w> directhex: doesn't it indicate that linux-headers is pure-virtual?
[09:36] <flohack> StevenK: How can I tell apt to consider packages from -updates
[09:36] <directhex> flohack, ah, right. PROVIDES. purely virtual.
[09:36] <Arc_> "we" being upstream - what's the timeline or process involved in getting it into universe from there
[09:36] <flohack> StevenK: -updates are in sources.list for main and restricted
[09:36] <james_w> Arc_: a couple of months unless you can get people interested
[09:36] <StevenK> flohack: If -updates is enabled, it should just work
[09:36] <james_w> Arc_: longer if no-one wants to review it
[09:36] <Arc_> james_w: that comes back to my question of if there's a MOTU-Python team
[09:37] <ssaboum> hi everyone
[09:37] <james_w> Arc_: there is sort of one, yes.
[09:37] <StevenK> % apt-cache policy linux-headers-generic | grep Candidate
[09:37] <StevenK>   Candidate: <IP_ADDRESS>.21
[09:37] <StevenK> flohack: ^
[09:37] <flohack> StevenK: According to policy, linux-headers-2.6.24-16-generic is only in hardy/main, but linux-headers-2.6.24-19-generic is in hardy-updates/main and hardy-security/main
[09:37] <Arc_> should we be talking to the people in that team now?
[09:37] <james_w> I don't think so
[09:38] <wgrant> Arc_: Restricting your audience seems counter-productive.
[09:38] <flohack> StevenK: But dkms cannot depend on linux-headers-generic, because I may have linux-image-server installed
[09:38] <wgrant> There's little point going to MOTU sub-teams, as they don't really exist.
[09:38] <Arc_> I'm not talking about restricting audience, just talking to the people most likely to be interested in reviewing the package
[09:38] <StevenK> flohack: Sure
[09:39] <flohack> StevenK: I just don't get why linux-headers does not install the latest version, though it is avaiable, and linux-headers-generic would choose it
[09:39] <james_w> I'd say get it on REVU and then ask for reviewers here, that's your best chance of finding someone interested
[09:39] <james_w> or on the mailing list even
[09:39] <Arc_> ok
[09:39] <wgrant> flohack: I suspect that it is because linux-headers can't tell which flavour you want.
[09:40] <Arc_> now I've been told a few times about this cutoff time for 8.10; does this mean that new packages only get added to the next release, or can they be added to previous/current releases?
[09:40] <flohack> wgrant: But it chose the correct flavour (-generic), just the wrong version
[09:40] <wgrant> flohack: Oh.
[09:40] <wgrant> That's odd.
[09:40] <james_w> Arc_: only to the next release, but you can request a backport once it is in
[09:40] <Hobbsee> Arc_: only to the next.
[09:40] <flohack> wgrant: And it essentially breaks dkms
[09:41] <Arc_> ok so we'll need it on our download page regardless then
[09:41] <Hobbsee> or if it's zomgimportant, you may be able to get a feature freeze exception for it
[09:41] <wgrant> But it's not zomgimportant, and it's non-free, so chances are slim.
[09:42] <dholbach> so... sponsoring
[09:42]  * dholbach dives in
[09:42] <Arc_> wgrant: since your opinion is not universally held and of a contraversial subject, it'd seem prudent to say "I believe it's non-free" rather than stating it as fact.
[09:43] <Arc_> we're in beta, and will be for the next few months up until our API freeze, but we have Ubuntu users asking for compile/install help all the time
[09:44] <wgrant> Do we know why a controversial licensing decision is being discussed in private by the CC and TB? This feels wrong.
[09:45] <Hobbsee> so it doesn't turn inot a flamewar?
[09:45] <wgrant> Perhaps, but it needs discussion.
[09:45] <Arc_> and because consensus will never be reached on the subject
[09:45] <Arc_> wgrant: it has been discussed, in the larger community, for almost a year since the license's release
[09:45] <wgrant> Arc_: "the larger community"?
[09:45] <Arc_> the free software community.
[09:46] <flohack> And further ideas why linux-headers seems to be broken?
[09:46] <flohack> Any
[09:46] <directhex> the free software community don't make decisions on DFSG freeness
[09:46] <Arc_> no, apparently random people who happen to be subscribed to debian-legal do, but I digress.
[09:47] <directhex> whilst you can argue the toss for a long time, the line gets drawn in the sand at some point. and that line may differ for different people
[09:47] <Arc_> in any case
[09:48] <Arc_> ok so by the policies that exist, we will not be included in any Ubuntu repository until at least 8.04, correct?
[09:48] <wgrant> s/8/9/
[09:48] <Arc_> ah yes, sorry. 9.04
[09:48] <Arc_> so this answers my question as to the need for us to offer the Ubuntu packages directly from our download page
[09:49] <Arc_> once included, how are version bumps handled?
[09:49] <Flannel> Arc_: consider a PPA instead of a download page
[09:49] <Arc_> PPA?
[09:50] <flohack> Arc_: Personal Package Archive
[09:50] <flohack> Arc_: see www.launchpad.net
[09:50] <wgrant> Consider that using PPAs encourages users to remove their security.
[09:51] <Arc_> ... ok, is there a way to allow Ubuntu users an uncomplicated way to click on a link on a website to get the package?
[09:51] <Flannel> wgrant: How do you figure a PPA is less secure than a download page on an arbitrary website?
[09:51] <Arc_> or what advantage is there to a PPA over a direct .deb download?
[09:51] <wgrant> Flannel: Personal apt repositories can be signed.
[09:51] <wgrant> HTTPS can be used for non-apt downloads.
[09:51] <wgrant> Plus non-apt downloads are harder to exploit, as they don't automatically update.
[09:52] <directhex> Arc_, version bumps require updated packages to be submitted to the appropriate places, see the MOTU guide on the ubuntu wiki
[09:52] <directhex> Arc_, as for 1-click, only for in-repository things
[09:52] <Flannel> wgrant: PPAs don't do the whole key thing?  Thats a rather poor implementation.
[09:52] <Arc_> what is the process for a user to add a PPA?
[09:53] <directhex> Arc_, have a launchpad.net account, click a button. done.
[09:53] <Arc_> so the user would need to have a launchpad account to add a PPA?
[09:53] <Arc_> I mean, add an existing PPA to their system
[09:54] <wgrant> Flannel: Correct. This is a severe problem. I can just poison somebody's DNS server and execute my code.
[09:54] <wgrant> Arc_: No, anybody can add them easily.
[09:54] <Arc_> ...
[09:54] <directhex> ara, oh, that. click a couple of places. essentially a line needs adding to /etc/sources.list* by hook or by crook
[09:54] <wgrant> Arc_: One needs a Launchpad account to *create* a PPA, not to use one.
[09:54] <Arc_> I'm trying to understand this process.  I've seen .deb packages, in that they launch the package installer that requests verification and it's done, so that's easy enough
[09:54] <flohack> Arc_: You, as the publisher of the sofware need an launchpad account. You create a PPA, upload your package and provide the user with the URL to the PPA
[09:55] <directhex> Arc_, the most common cited methods are running a wget line in a terminal to add it to the right place, there's a clicky interface to add repositories too
[09:55] <directhex> https://launchpad.net/~banshee-team/+archive contains some sample instructions
[09:55] <Arc_> is there a way, akin to the package installer, to allow the user to click a link on a website to add a PPA?
[09:55] <wgrant> Arc_: No, that would be a horrible security risk.
[09:56] <Arc_> ok so what is the most GUI way for them to do that?
[09:56] <directhex> Arc_, not in ubuntu. other distros do it.
[09:56] <wgrant> System->Administration->Software Sources, click a button the name of which I forget, and enter the line shown on +archive.
[09:57] <Hobbsee> wgrant: it's all a security risk, with it not being audited.
[09:57] <Hobbsee> and in the repositories.
[09:57] <Hobbsee> wgrant: so, take the most convenient option?
[09:58] <Arc_> ok so this is less convient than clicking on a .deb download
[09:58] <wgrant> Arc_: But it allows you to push updates as well.
[09:59] <directhex> Arc_, yes. but it DOES mean the user gets alerted to updates
[09:59] <Arc_> that's true
[09:59] <Arc_> with luck beta4 will get into 9.04 anyways
[09:59] <Arc_> btw, how would that work - having the package in two repositories
[09:59] <flohack> Arc_: You could simply write a wrapper script which the user can execute. But please provide the link to the PPA as well, so security concious users can add it manually
[09:59] <Arc_> nevermind that was a stupid question.
[09:59] <wgrant> The top version wins.
[10:00] <Arc_> the PPA wouldn't apply to 9.04 in any event
[10:00] <Arc_> ok.
[10:03] <Arc_> I assume that the technical board then decides what gets from universe -> main, if we went that route
[10:03] <Hobbsee> no, the main inclusion team does that.
[10:04] <Hobbsee> and the release managers decide if the applications get on the cds.
[10:04] <Arc_> on what basis is that decision made?
[10:04] <Hobbsee> so, both teams.
[10:04] <directhex> why would you get included in main? no offence, but i see absolutely no way a python 3d engine is useful for ubuntu main, and worth admin overhead for canonical to support
[10:04] <wgrant> The TB's powers aren't often invoked.
[10:04] <wgrant> directhex: Precisely my thinking.
[10:04] <Hobbsee> Arc_: what canonical wants to support, and what gets put on one or more of the cds / dvd's / etc, afaik.
[10:04] <Arc_> because for regular, home users, games, and especially educational software, is important.
[10:05] <StevenK> And what rdepends does it have?
[10:05] <Hobbsee> Arc_: how big is it?
[10:05] <Arc_> Hobbsee: given that most of the deps are already included with Gnome, not very.
[10:05] <Hobbsee> Arc_: "not very" is not a quantitative answer?
[10:05] <wgrant> Arc_: *r*depends. Reverse depends.
[10:05] <Arc_> a few megs
[10:06] <wgrant> That's huge.
[10:06]  * Hobbsee wonders what would get thrown off the cd, to add a 3d gaming engine.
[10:06] <Hobbsee> plus games, i guess.
[10:06] <laga> openoffice. ;)
[10:06] <Arc_> I'm not suggesting CD inclusion.
[10:06] <Hobbsee> laga: usually, people want an office suite.
[10:06] <Hobbsee> Arc_: then why do you want it in main?
[10:06] <directhex> Arc_, so why are you suggesting main?
[10:06] <directhex> Arc_, other than cd inclusion, main has no real benefits for users
[10:07] <Hobbsee> directhex: commercial support, too.
[10:07] <wgrant> I can assure you that Canonical won't want to commercially support Joe Random's 3D game for 3 years.
[10:07] <directhex> Hobbsee, for some random 3d engine?
[10:07] <bdrung> dholbach: did you ping me?
[10:07] <directhex> wgrant, not even joe random's game. the engine for joe random's game.
[10:07] <Hobbsee> directhex: probably not, but i was answering in the general case.
[10:07] <wgrant> directhex: The only reason that the engine would be there would be if a game was there.
[10:07] <dholbach> bdrung: not that I know of - we were talking about harvest and I spoke about the branch you're working on
[10:08] <slytherin> Arc_: Why not simply follow the process. Get it added to universe. Properly maintain it for at least one cycle. Then create a main inclusion report, if people are convinced that it is essential package then it will be moved to main
[10:08] <directhex> slytherin the diplomat
[10:08] <Arc_> slytherin: I'm not saying otherwise, just asking questions and getting harsh feedback to my questions
[10:08] <bdrung> dholbach: this channel was highlighted, but the log only contains 500 lines, so i did not know what that was.
[10:09] <Arc_> we're in beta, the only games we have are a few in our examples/ directory, so this is all very speculative, but our aims are a lot higher than serving one game.
[10:09] <dholbach> bdrung: yeah... people are talking a lot in here ;-)
[10:10] <Arc_> we have a non-profit corporation formed and putting through 501(c)(3) paperwork around this project, there's nothing small about what we're doing.
[10:10] <Hobbsee> Arc_: cool, good luck.
[10:10] <Hobbsee> hopefully there will be some good games, which you can get, along with the gaming engine, in universe for intrepid+1
[10:11] <bdrung> dholbach: yes. ;) if i would try to follow up, i would sitting here till tonight with reading
[10:11] <Arc_> Hobbsee: and the firefox plugin for it as well, yes.
[10:11] <Hobbsee> (or multiverse, if it's deemed non-free due to the requirements)
[10:11] <directhex> Arc_, nobody's criticizing your project, but we're failing to understand why you need inclusion in main. what do you perceive as the benefit?
[10:11] <Hobbsee> directhex: isn't it all hypothetical questioning?  surely the archive admins should deal in the licencing questions first, else it will be moot.
[10:11] <Arc_> we'll not be included in multiverse.
[10:12] <wgrant> Why not!?
[10:12] <wgrant> It's better being in multiverse than not being anywhere.
[10:12] <Hobbsee> wgrant: developer's choice?
[10:12] <Hobbsee> wgrant: it's a legitimate choice...
[10:12] <wgrant> Hobbsee: Yes, but I am interested in the rationale.
[10:12] <Arc_> it's poor marketing
[10:12] <stefanlsd> I see main as tools critical to the functioning of an Ubuntu system.  So if universe / multiverse applications are not there - the system should still function.
[10:13] <Hobbsee> stefanlsd: that's the idea, yes.
[10:13] <directhex> i see main as what goes on the CD
[10:13] <directhex> and frankly, a 3d game with art assets won't fit
[10:13] <bdrung> dholbach: did you reviewed my branch?
[10:13] <Hobbsee> directhex: it is more than that, though.  it might get onto the dvd, for eg.
[10:13] <dholbach> bdrung: no, sorry
[10:13] <RAOF> There's plenty of main that isn't on the CD.
[10:14] <dholbach> bdrung: does the handler work now?
[10:14] <Arc_> we are an extremely pro-software freedom project.  we explicitally leave out rendering features that are not implemented on free software drivers, we use only patent-clear algos and codecs, etc
[10:14] <Hobbsee> stefanlsd: newly-installed systems contain only stuff from main, and function fine
[10:14] <directhex> RAOF, how much of it as a result of build-deps and the like though?
[10:14] <Arc_> directhex: you are missing details.  it does not matter if a game is included, the firefox plugin may be.
[10:14] <Hobbsee> Arc_: not if it depends on the game itself, it won't.
[10:14] <RAOF> Main _used_ to be the set of all things officially supported by Canonical, but isn't anymore.
[10:14] <stefanlsd> Arc_: Im still not sure what you have against universe or multiverse?
[10:14] <Hobbsee> Arc_: or build depends, as it'll never build.
[10:14] <laga> "we'll not be included in multiverse" - if you're a free software project, there's nothing you can do about that ;)
[10:14] <Arc_> this engine aims to provide a free alternative for macromedia flash, for online 3d gaming, which is one of the main reasons we upgraded to the AGPLv3
[10:15] <flohack> Arc_: Just curious, I missed the point where you mentioned the name of your non-profit, engine, game...
[10:15] <bdrung> dholbach: it should. it some configuration thing here. your branch has the same issue. so i assume that did not break something
[10:15] <dholbach> dktrkranz is busy triaging the sponsoring queue as well - nice :)
[10:15] <Arc_> stefanlsd: I have nothing against universe.
[10:15] <directhex> flohack, http://www.pysoy.org/wiki/License
[10:15] <Arc_> flohack: PySoy
[10:15] <flohack> Cheers
[10:15] <dholbach> bdrung: I'll review a few packages now, then check out the harvest changes again
[10:15] <dholbach> bdrung: (Feature Freeze soon)
[10:16] <directhex> Arc_, okay, the browser plugin thing makes a little more sense
[10:16] <bdrung> dholbach: i know. i have to check 214 files for their licenses.
[10:16]  * didrocks hopes strongly someone will see its bitesize change on the sponsor list one day (last one before removing an NBS) ^^
[10:16] <directhex> Arc_, here's the thing though. what use is a browser plugin on a cd - if you have the internets to use the plugin, you have the internets to install the package from universe ;)
[10:16] <dholbach> bdrung: enjoy :-/
[10:17] <bdrung> dholbach: but rl tasks are also in the queue
[10:17] <Arc_> directhex: this is vaporware talk, we have parts of the mozilla plugin in place in our repository (py-mplug as it was previously called), mostly from a previous GSoC project, and we have a lot of work towards integrating, but it's far from finished
[10:17]  * Hobbsee notes that nothing in main can depend, or build depend, on anything from universe either.
[10:17] <Hobbsee> which might cause trouble, if you do eventually try to get parts of it into main.
[10:17] <directhex> Arc_, so for now, the first thing to worry about is making a quality source package, followed by filing for inclusion in universe
[10:17] <Arc_> but that is our goal, and the browser plugin *in the current technical direction* depends on the engine itself, rather than duplicating it, even though it doesn't execute downloaded Python code for security reasons.
[10:17] <directhex> Hobbsee, tell me about it :/
[10:18] <Hobbsee> directhex: heh :)
[10:18] <directhex> Hobbsee, on a related note, you don't have the awesome power to ack a merge do you?
[10:18] <Arc_> directhex: well no, first thing is getting beta3 out the door, but the source package will be part of that process.
[10:18] <Hobbsee> directhex: i have most powers :P
[10:18] <Hobbsee> directhex: it's a question of whether i'll use them, and the current answer is no (i'm about to head out)
[10:18] <directhex> :'(
[10:19] <directhex> well, merge bug at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/monodoc/+bug/256853
[10:19] <directhex> at least i can scroll up & use it to bug you later
[10:19] <Arc_> directhex: I never said inclusion on the CD was a goal, I can only imagine the sort of politics that go into that.  Firefox could, however, be setup to automatically grab the engine and the plugin when it hits a site that requires it
[10:19] <wgrant> Arc_: That can be done regardless of component.
[10:19] <directhex> Arc_, yes, but i think that actually supports universe/multiverse
[10:19] <wgrant> See Flash, for example.
[10:19] <Arc_> I understand.
[10:20] <directhex> Arc_, i think it's an ubufox enhancement to install plugins from packages rather than from mozilla.com search
[10:20] <Arc_> it would take me a long time to explain the entire situation and our plans to your satisfaction, all I'm doing now is gathering more information though not trying to convince you of anything
[10:20] <Arc_> directhex: *nod* good to know
[10:21] <directhex> Arc_, assuming i'm remembering the specifics correctly, then you'd simply file a bug against ubufox with a patch to add your package name to the mimetype->package mapping
[10:21] <Arc_> does ubufox currently support protocol->package mapping as well?
[10:22] <Arc_> there's a debate over which method is preferable
[10:22] <wgrant> Defining one's own protocol sounds like a bad idea.
[10:22] <directhex> i don't know enough about ubufox
[10:23] <jpds> RainCT, Laney: Changes made to ubuntu-dev-tools and pull-lp-source - please make sure that everything works OK.
[10:23] <directhex> it's a jono!
[10:23] <Arc_> wgrant: we already are developing our own protocol, it's essential.  it will work via ICE/UDP, initiated either through XMPP (if running a local game) or HTML (if running from a remote server)
[10:24] <Arc_> the plugin mechanisms are far from decided on, I'm just asking :-)
[10:26] <Arc_> in the engine model, the only difference between local and remote execution is where the Python MainThread is running; instead of changes being made directly in memory, they're sent as action/state events over the network, just as a remote server keeps client states in sync
[10:27] <stefanlsd> dholbach: aah. thanks for sponsoring gpa.  i've been trying to get that right for like a month!
[10:28] <dholbach> anytime :)
[10:29]  * directhex waves his little monodoc flag again. zee patch is only wafer thin!
[10:34] <Arc_> something I'm still confused about, if not a code review what is the REVU process for?
[10:34] <jpds> Arc_: Package review.
[10:35] <directhex> Arc_, bad packages damage systems
[10:35] <Arc_> ok
[10:35] <directhex> Arc_, one bad "rm -f" in prerm and boom, lots of angry users
[10:36] <Arc_> ha, still no sandbox in apt-get eh?
[10:38] <directhex> how do you sandbox making changes to your system?
[10:38] <tbielawa> chroot?
[10:38] <Arc_> Gentoo does this
[10:39] <Arc_> portage "installs", with all package scripts and such, then tests these against what's currently installed and only then (safely) merges
[10:40] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases
[10:41] <wgrant> Arc_: Packages need to be able to execute arbitrary commands. That cannot be sandboxed.
[10:42]  * directhex sandboxes "ldconfig"
[10:43] <wgrant> And if I can get a package onto your machine in the first place, I can get my code onto your machine inside the package, not just in the maintainer scripts.
[10:43] <Arc_> it's not about security, just safety
[10:45] <directhex> even with sandboxing, problems can occur
[10:45] <directhex> if a prerm keeps failing due to poor programming, how do you remove a package?
[10:47] <Arc_> what do you mean?
[10:49] <directhex> prerm is executed before removign a package - e.g. disabling an apache module before removign it. prerm fails, so the package manager stops
[10:49] <directhex> now, how do you remove that package?
[10:49] <Arc_> AFAIK, Gentoo doesn't have the same concept of a prerm
[10:50] <Arc_> Gentoo records which files were added, along with hashes to ensure the files were not overwritten (ie, a manual compile/install of a later version), and just deletes them
[10:51] <wgrant> So does dpkg.
[10:51] <directhex> leaving it to the user to add things to config files to make them work, and remember to remove them afterwards
[10:51] <wgrant> But it might need to perform other actions to fully remove, or stop the server before removal, or removing the user's root filesystem just to be nasty...
[10:51] <directhex> dpkg handles adding/removing distinct config files, sure, but there are loads of cases more complex than just "rm"
[10:52] <Arc_> ok
[10:57] <NCommander> warp10, WOOO, I LOVE PITTI!
[10:58] <warp10> NCommander: WE TOO!!! :P
[10:59] <NCommander> Yet another LP icon
[11:00] <warp10> NCommander: :D
[11:00] <NCommander> I just want that MOTU icon
[11:00] <NCommander> Then life will be good
[11:01] <StevenK> NCommander: Not core-dev? :-P
[11:01] <warp10> NCommander: or worse, depending on the point of view :)
[11:01] <NCommander> Not yet
[11:01] <NCommander> Well, after the archive split
[11:01] <NCommander> I'll be able to upload to xubuntu and universe/multiverse (if I have MOTU)
[11:02] <NCommander> so core-dev can wait until I've been here long enough to prove I'm not going to break the archive
[11:02] <StevenK> Were you planning on? :-)
[11:02] <NCommander> Not intentionally
[11:03] <NCommander> Some day, I shall become an archive admin, and then I can finally rest (for two minutes until the NEW queue gets flooded)
[11:04] <bdrung> dholbach: handler.py works correct. activate_opportunity and deactivate_opportunity did not update the files in data/packages because they did not have write access
[11:05] <dholbach> ah ok
[11:06] <bdrung> dholbach: there should be a log entry in logs/* if writing a file fails
[11:06] <dholbach> bdrung: sounds good
[11:09] <ssaboum> lol
[11:09] <dholbach> hum... who is allowed to archive packages on REVU?
[11:10] <ssaboum> hey guys, is there a way to get warned on comments on REVU ?
[11:10] <ssaboum> or a rss feed ?
[11:10] <jpds> dholbach: MOTU should be able to do it.
[11:10] <dholbach> jpds: should there be a link on the mainpage?
[11:10] <dholbach> jpds: or on the package page?
[11:11] <dholbach> the "actions" column is empty in my case
[11:11] <dholbach> and I'm logged in
[11:11] <DktrKranz> dholbach: did you merged accounts?
[11:11] <dholbach> DktrKranz: merge two launchpad accounts?
[11:11] <DktrKranz> REVU accounts. I see your "old" one only
[11:11] <jpds> dholbach: "Merge REVU Accounts " at the top of the index page.
[11:12] <dholbach> ahh ok
[11:12] <DktrKranz> once you are logged in, click on "merge revu accounts" and you're in :)
[11:12] <dholbach> nice
[11:12] <dholbach> thanks guys! :)
[11:12] <DktrKranz> you're welcome :)
[11:13] <bdrung> dholbach: please inform me before you review my branch
[11:13] <dholbach> bdrung: will do
[11:14] <dholbach> DktrKranz: you're busy reviewing now :)
[11:14] <dholbach> I just did a bunch myself
[11:15] <dholbach> and we're slowly gaining ground again :)
[11:16] <DktrKranz> dholbach: I did some this morning, I plan to have a couple in time before FF. I hope archive-admins will process syncs, so queue will go down again
[11:18] <dholbach> yeah
[11:18] <DktrKranz> I see there are some advocated packages on REVU too, they deserves a review
[11:18] <ScottK> NCommander: I'm around now.
[11:19] <NCommander> ScottK, cool. I'm now being tortmented with an FTBFS that occurs on i386/amd64, but not lpia or hppa
[11:19] <NCommander> (wrap your brain around that one)
[11:19] <DktrKranz> 106 packages in the queue, nice to see they reduced so much in five days :)
[11:21] <ScottK> NCommander: I got one that's on lpia, but not any other arch and it seems to be an arch specific change to configure causes one piece of the package not to get built.
[11:21] <NCommander> No, it builds on lpia/hppa
[11:22] <NCommander> Fails on amd64/i386
[11:22] <NCommander> LIke I said, wrap your brain around that one
[11:22] <ScottK> Right.  Mine's kind of the opposite.
[11:22] <NCommander> yeah
[11:22] <NCommander> But you expect hppa to fail
[11:22] <directhex> NCommander, does it include any arch-specific code for i386/amd64 which is just *wrong*, versus generic code which works?
[11:23] <NCommander> and spam your inbox
[11:23] <NCommander> directhex, well, if mysql does, then I'm going to loose my mind
[11:28] <Iulian> dholbach: Yaay! No slots available. Well done.
[11:28] <NCommander> directhex, how goes mono-basic?
[11:28] <dholbach> thanks Iulian - luckily it was not only my doing :)
[11:29] <directhex> NCommander, the package is in good shape, and the apparent "correct" behaviour is include bootstrap binaries but document in debian/copyright and ensure those binaries never get packaged
[11:29] <Iulian> dholbach: Heh, rock!
[11:30] <directhex> NCommander, mentor's having problems submitting to sid though.
[11:30] <NCommander> I noticed
[11:30] <NCommander> I've sent two archive admins running and screaming trying to find a sponsor for Debian
[11:30] <NCommander> er wait
[11:31] <NCommander> oh
[11:31] <NCommander> I thought ScottK was an archive admin for some reason
[11:31] <NCommander> er
[11:31] <NCommander> StevenK,
[11:32] <directhex> NCommander, mono-basic is ready for inclusion. the timing is just poor, with lenny and intrepid freezes.
[11:32] <NCommander> YOu still have 24 hours for intrepid
[11:32] <NCommander> Upload upload upload!
[11:32] <directhex> NCommander, i think i'll upload a copy to my PPA. i have people asking for it
[11:33] <NCommander> StevenK, could you do me a favor and help review mono-basic on REVU?
[11:33] <Iulian> NCommander: Less than 24 hours.
[11:33] <NCommander> bah
[11:33] <directhex> i think the revu one needs a little updating. let me check
[11:33] <NCommander> I need to call in a second favor then
[11:34] <ScottK> Iulian: Not necessarily, the exact time of the freeze is rather nebulous.
[11:34] <NCommander> who else have fixed random FTBFS before in the past
[11:34] <Iulian> ScottK: Oh, I thought its 00:00 UTC.
[11:34] <NCommander> DktrKranz, care to review a packge on REVU?
[11:35] <NCommander> cody-somerville, otherwise, can you please do it to me as a favor?
[11:35] <NCommander> directhex, hopefully someone I pinged will help you :-)
[11:36] <bobbo_> tacone: pong
[11:37] <tacone> bobbo: re-ping
[11:37] <directhex> NCommander, i'll upload a newer revision
[11:37] <bobbo> hey tacone
[11:37] <NCommander> directhex, I hope someone answers, but mono scares people mor ethan codeblocks
[11:37] <tacone> bobbo: https://code.launchpad.net/~bobbo/+junk/uploads where's the cronjob ?
[11:38] <bobbo> tacone: cronjob?
[11:38] <tacone> uhm. ok. bad wording. where's the code that does inserts in mysql ?
[11:39] <bobbo> tacone: I havent got round to writing that bit yet :)
[11:39] <NCommander> w00t
[11:39] <bobbo> tacone: I just use phpmyadmin at the moment, but I really should write an add upload page
[11:39] <NCommander> I crashed a PPA builder
[11:39] <NCommander> https://edge.launchpad.net/+builds
[11:39] <tacone> omg
[11:40] <tacone> bobbo: ok, I see. you may be interested in utu then.
[11:40] <directhex> NCommander, what's the right version number to apply to an unreleased debian package? 0ubuntu1, or Xubuntu1 or X-1ubuntu1?
[11:40] <tacone> http://thc.emanuele-gentili.com/utu.php here there's some code that parses the mailing list to find out uploads.
[11:41] <bobbo> tacone: ah yeah, its awesome
[11:41] <bobbo> tacone: cant find any source though, must ask emgent if he is releasing it
[11:41] <NCommander> 0ubuntu1
[11:41] <tacone> awesome perphaps is too much, but it's nice enough, yes.
[11:41] <NCommander> When the Debian version hits, the sync will clobber it
[11:42] <tacone> bobbo: I'll ask emgent, but maybe I have it somewhere. I'll take a look
[11:42] <bobbo> tacone: cool, thanks :)
[11:48] <tacone> found the code.
[11:48] <tacone> there's not license on it. I'll ask emgent as a pure formality then send you the code.
[11:49] <bobbo> tacone: sure, thanks alot :D
[11:50] <tacone> bobbo: neverming :) I plan to reuse your code as well :-)
[11:52] <sistpoty|work> hi folks
[11:52] <directhex> NCommander, okay, Debian-approved if-svn-buildpackage-dealt-with-changed-orig-dot-tar-dot-gz-files-properly-i'd-be-in-sid-right-now upload: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=3550
[11:53] <directhex> NCommander, if that goes in, ubuntu gets a "complete" mono stack for intrepid. monodoc and monotools still await merge acks for it to be up-to-date as well as complete, but better than nothing
[11:54] <amarillion> Hey there, I have a question: how are .desktop files with Type=Directory supposed to work?
[11:56] <Iulian> Hey sistpoty
[11:57] <sistpoty|work> hi Iulian
[12:13] <ScottK> Anyone have an EEE pc?
[12:13] <stefanlsd> ScottK: was thinking bout getting one...
[12:14] <ScottK> Well we've got a package that needs reviewing before feature freeze and it'd be nice to know if it works.  Please hurry.
[12:14] <stefanlsd> ScottK: heh. let me try find a supplier
[12:15] <jpds> RainCT: what do you think about bug #247157?
[12:24] <Treenaks> ScottK: I have one at home..
[12:27] <ScottK> Treenaks: Can you build and test a package for us?
[12:28] <Treenaks> ScottK: tonight (CEST), yes
[12:28] <Treenaks> ScottK: you could ask popey as well, he has a stack of Eee
[12:28] <ScottK> Treenaks: Please try out the eee-applet that's on REVU currently.
[12:31] <Treenaks> ScottK: I'll be home in ~6 hours, I'll try to remember
[12:33] <ScottK> Treenaks: Great.  I should be around.
[12:43] <huats> hello ScottK
[12:43] <huats> :)
[12:55] <ScottK> hello huats
[12:56] <ScottK> devfil: I still don't understand what your README.source on the gtk-kde4 package means?
[12:56] <devfil> ScottK: I dropped it
[12:58] <ScottK> devfil: It's still there in the latest one I grabbed from REVU.
[12:58] <devfil> ScottK: are you sure? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/gtk-kde4-0808261730/gtk-kde4-0.8~b1/debian/
[13:00] <ScottK> devfil: My bad.
[13:01] <ScottK> That's what I get for unpacking the new source on top of the old one.
[13:01] <ScottK> Sorry for the disturbance.
[13:08] <k0p> hi all
[13:08] <k0p> are there a article to made a diff of a package aleady archived?
[13:15] <bdrung> dholbach: now my harvest branch is ready for merge
[13:24] <DktrKranz> NCommander: which one?
[13:29] <Arc_> thanks guys, I set up our PPA and we'll get our other devs who have committed to maintaining the Ubuntu packages to join
[13:30] <Arc_> https://launchpad.net/~pysoy
[13:30] <directhex> Arc_, it's a good place for you to try out things without being committed to the ubuntu release schedule
[13:31] <Arc_> yea I agree
[13:31] <Arc_> do you know how to add hardy, or to upload to this?
[13:32] <Arc_> the most immediate thing I can think of is adding a -dev package that just resolves dependencies for svn builders
[13:32] <directhex> Arc_, you upload packages to your ppa using "dput", right? well, either specify in your dput target (as specified in ~/.dput.cf) an incoming folder with a specific dist in the name, OR specify a generic one and make sure you have a correct first line in your debian/changelog
[13:33] <Arc_> ok
[13:33] <directhex> Arc_, so EITHER my dput.cf specifies "incoming = ~directhex/ubuntu/hardy/" and i use that dput target, OR my dput.cf specifies "incoming = ~directhex/ubuntu/" and my package upload's debian/changelog starts with "pkgname (1.0-1) hardy; urgency=low"
[13:34] <Arc_> ok
[13:34] <Arc_> would pysoy-dev be an appropriate package name that's just a metapackage for resolving dependencies?
[13:35] <Arc_> and if so, what version should I choose, given that it's after 1.0-beta2 and before 1.0-beta3?
[13:35] <james_w> Arc_: if you package pysoy then they can use "apt-get build-dep" to install the needed packages
[13:36] <directhex> Arc_, packaging dependencies happen automatically, based on the build-depends of your debian/control
[13:36] <Arc_> for now, I'm just looking for a "metapackage" so building from svn doesn't involve manually selecting a dozen+ -dev packages
[13:37] <directhex> Arc_, "apt-get build-dep pkgname"
[13:37] <directhex> Arc_, build-dep pulls in all a package's build-depends
[13:37] <Arc_> oh, what I mean is the package wouldn't actually contain any code
[13:38] <directhex> Arc_, i know what a metapackage is for, but you don't make a metapackage purely for self-referential building on debbuntu
[13:38] <Arc_> I don't understand
[13:39] <Arc_> I'm just talking about something for now in this PPA to make things easier for the next month or two
[13:39] <directhex> Arc_, then look at Equivs
[13:40] <directhex> and the "ubuntu-meta" source package as a practical implementation of it
[13:40] <Arc_> ok
[13:41] <Arc_> do you have a URL for version evaluation?
[13:41] <ScottK> Arc_: apt-get build-deps will work from your PPA too as long as they have the source (deb-src) repository in /etc/apt/sources.list.  You could also provide a target in debian/rules to grab from svn so it's all done via normal package management.
[13:41] <Arc_> I guess all that's really needed is for the version to evaluate to less than 1.0-beta3 but it'd be good if it was after 1.0-beta2
[13:42] <directhex> Arc_, i believe the recommended way to deal with betas is with ~
[13:42] <Arc_> ScottK: is there a way to do that for automatic "svn sync"'s for developers?
[13:42] <directhex> Arc_, i.e. since you want 1.0 beta 3 to be older than 1.0, you need to use ~, e.g. 1.0-1~beta3 is superceded by 1.0-1
[13:43] <ScottK> Arc_: Sure.  write a get-svn-source target in debian/rules (analgous to get-orig-source that is often used when there's no usable upstream tarball).
[13:43] <directhex> Arc_, and then, since you want to work on a PPA, you should append ~ppaN to the end, to make sure your PPA version is overridden by the archive vetrsion if it's higher, so that would be 1.0-1~beta3~ppa1
[13:44] <Arc_> directhex: but here's the real challenge, we're not talking beta3, we're talking pre-beta3 SVN revision XXX
[13:44] <directhex> Arc_, and (i bet you're loving this) since you don't want to be in debian, technically you can't use -1 in your version name, you're targeting ubuntu so the correct first version for your ppa is (don't choke) 1.0~beta3-0ubuntu1~ppa1. i think
[13:45] <directhex> Arc_, well, svn is easy, you can just use rNNNNN in your version number
[13:45] <james_w> 1.0~beta3~svnXXX-0ubuntu1~ppa1
[13:45] <directhex> yeah, what james_w said
[13:45] <directhex> and there are worse numbers to have, trust me
[13:45] <Arc_> but when beta3 is released, it should evaluate as being a greater version than the svn before it
[13:45] <Arc_> would that do it?
[13:46] <directhex> flash plugin version <IP_ADDRESS>+<IP_ADDRESS>5ubuntu1~hardy1+really<IP_ADDRESS>ubuntu2 for example sucks a bit
[13:46] <james_w> 1.0~beta3 > 1.0~beta3~svnXXX
[13:46] <directhex> Arc_, ~ lowers the version, so... what james_w said
[13:46] <Arc_> gotcha
[13:46] <StevenK> ~ sorts lower than ''
[13:46] <directhex> so, who wants to advocate mono-basic on revu?
[13:46] <Arc_> is svnXXX the convention or rXXX
[13:46] <directhex> go on, everyone loves visual basic.net
[13:47] <directhex> Arc_, i've seen both
[13:47] <Arc_> ok
[13:48] <directhex> Arc_, just promise me you won't do the most boneheaded thing i've seen, and use git hashes
[13:48] <Arc_> and "ppa1" is a convention refering to the first PPA that packages it?
[13:48] <Arc_> I promise ;-)  when we're ready to go git, we won't be doing trunk revisions anymore in any case
[13:48] <directhex> Arc_, typically, you want the last bit of a package version number to be something you "control". if the package is on your ppa, then you need the freedom to increment the package version whilst keeping the rest the same
[13:48] <ScottK-laptop> Arc_: Yes.
[13:49] <directhex> Arc_, "ppa" is the common, if flawed, thing most people add to the end.
[13:49] <Arc_> gotcha.
[13:49] <ScottK> directhex: Why do you say flawed?
[13:49] <directhex> Arc_, like i said, the main desire is to make sure that if you manage to get 1.0~beta3~svnXXX-0ubuntu1 added to ubuntu "proper", it replaces 1.0~beta3~svnXXX-0ubuntu1~ppa1, hence using the ~
[13:50] <directhex> ScottK, 1.0-1~hardy1 lower than 1.0-1~ppa1
[13:50] <ScottK> Right.
[13:50] <ScottK> Good point.
[13:50] <ScottK> Actually I usually use ~hardy1~ppa1 if I'm targeting something other than the developmental release.
[13:50] <Arc_> so this would be valid; 1.0~beta3~r1348-0ubuntu1~ppa
[13:51] <ScottK> It would be valid, but directhex makes a good point.
[13:51] <directhex> ScottK, it'll remain flawed until queer quetzal
[13:51] <Arc_> what is the -0ubuntu1?
[13:51] <Arc_> I understand ubuntu means its ubuntu-specific, not debian
[13:51] <Arc_> but 0 and 1 around it?
[13:51] <ScottK> Arc_: I'd recommend 1.0~beta3~r1348-0ubuntu1~hardy1~ppa1 if you're building for Hardy.
[13:52] <RainCT> Arc_: 0 is the Debian revision and 1 the Ubuntu revision
[13:52] <ScottK> Arc_: The 0 makes sure it's less than the first Debian revision and the 1 is the Ubuntu revision number.
[13:52] <directhex> Arc_, ubuntu package versions reflect their place in the debian heirarchy. the first debian version of something is 1.0-1, so if ubuntu's package is based on that one, it becomes 1.0-1ubuntu1. if it's based on a pre-debian (or never-debian) package, it's 0ubuntu12
[13:52] <directhex> 1
[13:52] <Arc_> ok
[13:53] <directhex> ScottK, we could add some "+" to that to make it more exciting, surely?
[13:53] <directhex> ScottK, i mean, four tildes? a bit one-sided
[13:53] <ScottK> OK
[13:53] <directhex> Arc_, unfortunately, you just happen to have picked every single "non-simple" case for versioning your package at once
[13:54] <directhex> ScottK, prepend 0.99+!
[13:54] <ScottK> 1.0~beta2+r1348-0ubuntu1~hardy1~ppa1 if you prefer.
[13:54] <ScottK> directhex: Not all of them.
[13:54] <Arc_> I like that better actually
[13:54] <directhex> ScottK, okay, no reverts. most of them
[13:54] <Arc_> what does the 1 at the end of ppa represent?
[13:54] <directhex> Arc_, your first revision
[13:55] <wgrant> Why is the hardy1 coming first?
[13:55] <directhex> Arc_, if you mess up the packaging, but the software is the same, then you increment that number
[13:55] <ScottK-laptop> That's your revision number so you can increment that if you need to fix something with another upload.
[13:55] <RainCT> wgrant: so that backports work
[13:55] <directhex> wgrant, cheap workaround to <directhex> ScottK, 1.0-1~hardy1 lower than 1.0-1~ppa1
[13:55] <directhex> i find appending ~dhx1 easier ;)
[13:55] <Arc_> ok then why hardy1?
[13:55] <ScottK-laptop> directhex: Which isn't so great if you want to backport to Dapper.
[13:56] <directhex> ScottK-laptop, fortunately, i only put things in my PPA ineligible for official backporting anyway
[13:56] <Arc_> I mean why the 1 at the end of hardy?
[13:56] <directhex> ScottK-laptop, and my dapper repo is frozen
[13:57] <directhex> Arc_, the first "official" backport to hardy would have ~hardy1, which could be incremented if that official backport were updated
[13:57] <directhex> Arc_, so the idea is trying to work out where you want to slot in
[13:57] <Arc_> ok
[13:58] <directhex> Arc_, if you want to guarantee being replaced by newer packages in the main distro, you need your version to be "older" than anything potentially official, whilst still replacing genuinely older versions
[13:58] <directhex> you get used to it
[13:59] <Arc_> so why not hardy0?
[13:59] <directhex> or go mad and work on visual basic things. one or t'other.
[13:59] <Arc_> since its not an official backport
[14:00] <Arc_> and isn't that redundant with the archive version in any event?
[14:02] <ScottK-laptop> Riddell: Filed as Bug 261840.  I'll send mail to kubuntu-devel asking for feedback.
[14:02] <directhex> there are three* places a given package can be available, excluding a PPA. if we say 1.0 is in the main repository for intrepid, then 1.2 is in the main repository for jilted jackalope, then 1.2 can only end up available in intrepid via the backports repo, updates repo, or a ppa (and you won't be in updates without good reason). the version that comes in via backports/updates needs to be older than the version in jilted jackalope,
[14:02] <directhex> to ensure it's replaced if you upgrade your distro
[14:03] <ScottK-laptop> oops.  Wrong channel.
[14:03] <directhex> Arc_, so i actually think you're right about using hardy0 instead of hardy1 in your ppa version, since you're not "based on" hardy1
[14:03] <tuxmaniac> [OT] Any idea whom I should contact for enabling my @ubuntu.com email alias?
[14:04] <ScottK> Since hardy1 would be the first backport, as long as it's lower than that, it doesn't matter by how much.
[14:04] <RainCT> tuxmaniac: I think that's done automatically
[14:04] <directhex> Arc_, in the event that the base software is the same version (1.2 in the example), you need to try and aim your package at the right place - either higher or lower than potential backports, but always lower than the next "full" release
[14:05] <directhex> ScottK, i think hardy0 is a better convention to teach for PPAs. since it's NOT based on hardy1, i don't think hardy1 should be in the name. see what i mean?
[14:05] <directhex> i know it doesn't "matter", but it seems like more justified practice
[14:06] <ScottK> By that rationale it should be ubuntu0 too.
[14:08] <directhex> depends if you're also the packager, i suppose
[14:08] <Arc_> hmm.  1.0~beta2+r1348-0ubuntu0~hardy0+ppa1
[14:09] <Arc_> because then a PPA "based on" a main version will superscede it correct?
[14:11] <directhex> Arc_, buggered if i know, i got lost halfway through
[14:11] <directhex> ;)
[14:11] <Arc_> heh ok
[14:13] <directhex> essentially it's all guesswork until a version enters the archive
[14:13] <Arc_> got it
[14:14] <directhex> and there's no "official" rule on PPA numbering, especially given how much some people dislike them for assorted reasons. so if you're aiming to get 1.0-foo-bar-baz-boz into the archive, until that point, just use 0.99-1 in your ppa and say screw it.
[14:14] <directhex> (don't quote me on that)
[14:15] <Arc_> well since our deps change it's good to have the rXXXX in there
[14:16] <directhex> well, version it how you like, just try not to get a headache
[14:16] <Arc_> yea that format is easy enough to follow
[14:17] <directhex> i think though that "1.0~beta2+r1348-0ubuntu0~hardy0+ppa1" is indeed a perfectly valid way to number the absolute first version of a dvn revision of a beta of a package, which is first appearing in a PPA
[14:21] <Arc_> rofl
[14:21] <Arc_> alright.
[14:22] <Arc_> last question, the mention of svn downloading/building for the source
[14:23] <laszlok> dholbach: do you know what the jokosher-0.10/debian/jokosher.sh is for in the diff of the 0.10 package?
[14:24] <Arc_> can a specific revision be specified with get-svn-source?
[14:24] <Arc_> the source repository is http://svn.pysoy.org/trunk/pysoy thats easy enough
[14:25] <directhex> Arc_, yes. you write get-svn-source yourself - it's a target in debian/rules makefile
[14:25] <directhex> Arc_, so you can even be smart, and make it parse the revision to download frmo debian.changelog
[14:25] <directhex> debian/changelog
[14:25] <directhex> let me find a simple example
[14:29] <directhex> man, can't find one. we use it for get-orig-source, but that's ftp based.
[14:29] <Arc_> just to clarify, with the PPA added as a source, "apt-get build-dep pysoy" would just compile all the dependencies, and "apt-get source pysoy" would build the deps *and* download the source to ./ right?
[14:30] <Hobbsee> it wouldn't buil dthe deps.
[14:30] <Hobbsee> it would download the source.
[14:30] <Hobbsee> and s/compile/download and install/, yes.
[14:30] <Arc_> I'd imagine it'd take a url but the revision # is the unknown
[14:31] <directhex> Arc_, "apt-get build-dep pysoy" will install all the packages listed in the Build-Depends: line of your pysoy source package's debian/control
[14:31] <Arc_> ok so if you want both the deps and the source, both commands would have to be executed?
[14:31] <directhex> Arc_, "apt-get source pysoy" will download & extract the source package into the current folder
[14:31] <directhex> Arc_, so both steps needed, yes
[14:32] <directhex> Hobbsee, you're back!
[14:32] <Arc_> yea and that would mean the equiv of "svn co http://svn.pysoy.org/trunk/pysoy"
[14:32] <Arc_> complete with .svn directories?
[14:32] <Hobbsee> directhex: yes, but i'm tired, and i'm unlikely to be able to type my passprhase...
[14:33] <geser> Hobbsee: should we help you? :)
[14:33] <Hobbsee> geser: yes.  SPONSOR PACKAGES!  NOW!  SPONSORSHIP QUEUE!
[14:33] <Hobbsee> geser: REPORT FOR DUTY IMMEDIATELY!
[14:34] <Adri2000> Hobbsee: too tired for an archive admin task as well?
[14:34] <Hobbsee> Adri2000: much
[14:34] <Adri2000> ok :(
[14:35] <directhex> so nobody feels like an ack for my monodoc merge in main? no?
[14:35] <Hobbsee> geser: does
[14:35] <directhex> how about some nice stress-free advocation on mono-basic in revu. everyone loves visual basic.
[14:35] <geser> Hobbsee: since when can I ack merges in main?
[14:35] <Arc_> directhex: do you know a URL where get-svn-source is documented?
[14:36] <RainCT> Arc_: there is nothing to document, it it whatever you want it to be :)
[14:36] <geser> Hobbsee: and I don't have time either as I need to learn for two exams this week (tomorrow and Friday)
[14:36] <Arc_> I don't understand
[14:37] <directhex> Arc_, debian/rules is a makefile. technically, it can do whatever you would want a makefile to do
[14:37] <Arc_> oh
[14:37] <Arc_> so what activates get-svn-source vs get-orig-source?
[14:39] <directhex> Arc_, i don't think (someone else may correct me) either is explicitly called by anything automatic
[14:39] <directhex> Arc_, you can use them yourself, for convenience, to make collaborative work easier
[14:39] <RainCT> Arc_: the name get-orig-source is a convention
[14:39] <RainCT> s/is a/is just a/
[14:40] <Arc_> ok so what does "apt-get source pysoy" do in that case?
[14:40] <RainCT> Arc_: download the source from the Ubuntu archive
[14:40] <RainCT> (that is, the .dsc, .diff.gz and .orig.tar.gz)
[14:40] <directhex> Arc_, downloads pysoy.dsc, pysoy.diff.gz, and pysoy.orig.gz, from the ubuntu archive (or ppa)
[14:40] <jpds> Hobbsee: Use gnupg-agent
[14:41] <Arc_> ok so whats the point of specifying get-svn-source?
[14:41] <directhex> Arc_, get-orig-source is a popular convention for allowing you to generate (or download) the orig.tar.gz
[14:42] <ScottK-laptop> RainCT: Actually apt-get source downloads the highest version listed in any deb-src repo, Ubuntu official or not.
[14:42] <Arc_> "allowing you"?
[14:42] <Arc_> do you mean allowing you, outside the context of apt-get, or allowing you to specify an apt-get command to do this all automatically
[14:42] <directhex> Arc_, essentially, outside the context of apt-get
[14:42] <ScottK-laptop> Arc_: The idea would be to have a target in debian/rules so you can make -f debian/rules get-svn-source and have it all magically arrive ready to use.
[14:43] <RainCT> Arc_: it has nothing to do with apt-get. it's just to get a new .orig.tar.gz when there's a new upstream version/revision
[14:43] <directhex> Arc_, as an example, for working on mono-basic packaging, mono-basic packaging work is stored in svn. mono-basic upstream is in a zip file on an ftp server
[14:43] <RainCT> ScottK-laptop: well, yea
[14:43] <directhex> Arc_, i check out the mono-basic tree from svn, run debian/rules get-orig-source, and it generates a mono-basic orig.tar.gz for me
[14:43] <ScottK-laptop> RainCT: Since he's talking about a PPA, it's relevant.
[14:43] <directhex> Arc_, i unpack it, add the debian/ folder in, and run debuild -S -sa. that generates the dsc and diff.gz against the orig.tar.gz
[14:44] <Arc_> ok so this really doesn't save time since it still requires pre-tarring the source code
[14:44] <geser> Arc_: use get-svn-version if you need to get a version (from upstream) which you want to upload into the archive (or ppa) and "apt-get source" later to download it from the archive
[14:44] <ScottK-laptop> Arc_: The point is to write a target in rules to automate all that for you.
[14:44] <directhex> Arc_, it saves packaging time, since it means your get-orig-source can do that work for you
[14:45] <directhex> Arc_, so you can make your debian/rules work out the svn revision you want based on the changelog, and check it out, clean it, and compress it into an orig.tar.gz ready for use in the archive
[14:46] <directhex> Arc_, it makes updating your packages much easier
[14:47] <directhex> Arc_, the thing about dpkg packages is all three* files relating to a package need to come from the same place. you can't have a source package without the source
[14:47] <directhex> trust me, dealing with NOSRC packages on suse sucks
[14:52] <Laney> tacone: You here?
[14:52] <Laney> tacone: I got an error when upgrading to the latest memaker
[14:52] <tacone> yes here
[14:52] <tacone> pastebin it
[14:52] <Laney> am doing
[14:53] <Laney> http://paste.ubuntu.com/40915/
[14:53] <tacone> ?!?.
[14:53] <tacone> my patch doesn't get applied ? possible ?
[14:53] <tacone> let me see
[14:53] <Laney> Did you test install the package you uploaded?
[14:53] <tacone> sure I did
[14:54] <Laney> weird
[14:54] <tacone> on a clean wm
[14:54] <tacone> not weird, is about python versions
[14:54]  * Laney nods
[14:54] <tacone> you have something different from the standard. the problem was known and patched
[14:54] <dholbach> laszlok: will check in a bit and let you know
[14:54] <tacone> I adapted the patch. let me check and correct.
[14:55] <Laney> This is a very dirty environment ;)
[14:55] <Laney> My installation has been dist-upgraded through loads of revisions
[14:55] <Laney> releases*
[14:55] <tacone> that's why you have an old python
[14:55] <Laney> probs
[14:55] <tacone> as for me, I proposed to depend on a newer python. upstream never tested with old python, this I am sure
[14:56] <ScottK> Daviey or superm1|away: Why did you make every single Ubuntu developer a member of Mythbuntu (and thus get mail they really don't care about)?
[14:57] <jpds> ScottK: Jonathan Patrick Davies  → MOTU  → Ubuntu Development Team  → Ubuntu Development Team (bugmail catching gateway)  → Mythbuntu
[14:58] <jpds> ScottK: I blame the gateway, and thus RainCT.
[14:58] <ScottK> I was coming to that.
[14:58] <ScottK> But why period.
[14:59] <Laney> tacone: Just bumping XS-Python-Version fixes it
[14:59] <slytherin> geser: there? few questions about libjboss-cache
[14:59]  * Laney eyes whoever put All in the first place
[14:59] <geser> sure
[14:59] <ScottK> RainCT: What the heck is this ubuntu-dev-without-bugmail thing and why wasn't it discussed?
[15:00] <tacone> Laney: nice, but it would fail anyway with older python versions
[15:00] <tacone> so we either depend on python2.5 or get the patch applied
[15:00] <tacone> patch: ls debian/patches/001*
[15:01] <RainCT> ScottK: you get mythbuntu mail? :S
[15:01] <Laney> tacone: Changing XS-Python-Version gets the right deps in
[15:01] <Laney> Depends: python (<< 2.6), python (>= 2.5),
[15:01] <Laney> (but why isn't that patch applied? that would seem to be the right fix)
[15:02] <RainCT> ScottK: ubuntu-dev was added as a member of mythbuntu so that it can commit to its branches (many packages are maintained in bzr barnches owned by mythbuntu)
[15:02] <jpds> RainCT: http://paste.ubuntu.com/40919/
[15:02] <tacone> Laney:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/memaker/+bug/214401
[15:02] <RainCT> ScottK: but we created ubuntu-dev-without-bugmail which is supposed to catch all the mail (sending it to its contact address)
[15:02] <tacone> Laney: that's the thing, I am loooking to understand why it doesn't get applied
[15:02] <ScottK> It doesn't
[15:02] <slytherin> geser: Fixing current package is too much work. Even after that I am not sure what all reverse-build-depends will need to be modified.
[15:02] <slytherin> 1. I can update it to 2.1.1 version with very minimal fixing required changes. But then should I change source package and binary package names from *cache1 to *cache2?
[15:03] <ScottK> RainCT: I get "New Mailing List for Mythbuntu Bug Team" and I bet I'll get the merge request mails too.
[15:03] <RainCT> ScottK, jpds: seems like only bugmail is catched, but not other info mails
[15:03] <tacone> Laney: I can confirm it doesn't get applied :(
[15:03] <geser> slytherin: did the API change?
[15:03] <Laney> tacone: Is this the only 2.4 problem? Will the package work apart from this issue?
[15:03] <ScottK> RainCT: Please can we think this stuff through BEFORE we start spamming every single Ubuntu developer.
[15:04] <Laney> Do you know why it wasn't applied upstream?
[15:04] <tacone> Laney: yes it does. I had no problem with that.
[15:04] <ScottK> RainCT: Please undo whatever it is you have done, figure it out, and then try again.
[15:04] <slytherin> geser: I couldn't find any direct statement about API change.
[15:05] <RainCT> beh.. this will need changes in Launchpad then..
[15:05] <Laney> tacone: I'd better get back to work, but I'll have a look later if you don't figure it out
[15:05] <Laney> Seeya
[15:05] <tacone> thank you
[15:05] <geser> slytherin: is the new version a drop-in replacment? if yes, keep -cache1
[15:06] <Laney> Oh, DktrKranz: Do you think the nanoweb problem you mentioned is a blocker? I'd like to have the php4 deps in for potential backporting if you don't mind. It doesn't cause a problem for Intrepid.
[15:06] <Laney> Bye!
[15:06] <geser> slytherin: what about the reverse-build-dependencies? do they build/work with the new version?
[15:06] <ScottK> RainCT: I will actively object to being classified as a member of a Mythbuntu team.  I'm not involved in the project.
[15:06] <laszlok> dholbach: also it looks like the import from debian used the control file from 0.2. In 0.9 we dropped dependencies for python-alsaaudio, librsvg2-common, python-gnome2, and changed gstreamer0.10-gnomevfs to recommended package
[15:06]  * RainCT writes a mail to ubuntu-devel
[15:06] <slytherin> geser: Drop in replacement - it should be. I haven't tested reverse-build-depends. I don't have a package ready yet. I just checked if it compiles with whatever packages are available currently.
[15:07] <ScottK> RainCT: Which should have been done BEFORE.
[15:07] <dholbach> laszlok: will check into that as well
[15:07]  * laszlok hugs dholbach
[15:08]  * highvoltage hugs dholbach too (just randomly)
[15:08] <dholbach> :-)
[15:08] <geser> slytherin: ok, what about FF in a few hours? sounds like it would be best to file a FF exception so you don't need to hurry with packaging it
[15:08]  * dholbach hugs y'all
[15:08]  * directhex STILL awaits mono-basic love & hugs
[15:09] <directhex> feature freeze fills me with fear and sadness!
[15:09] <slytherin> geser: I should have a package ready within 2 hours when I go home. That is about 5 hours from now.
[15:10] <nxvl> emgent`: /qui
[15:10] <nxvl> ups
[15:10] <nxvl> :P
[15:11] <slytherin> geser: What I can do meanwhile is still work on current package and make it build, irrespective of how many class files are built. So we can proceed with our build rounds.
[15:13] <slytherin> geser: And that reminds me, some java files are not present in 2.1.1. So yes it is an API change. I will change source and binary package names and have a new changelog, is that fine?
[15:14] <geser> slytherin: yes, in that case it's better to rename it
[15:15] <geser> but I'm not sure if it needs a full review through REVU or still counts as a new version update
[15:16] <flohack> I'm trying to package a new library. I created the skeleton using dh_make (adapted the necessary bits following the PackagingGuide). Then I created the package using debuild (it compiles and installs to debian/tmp), but the resulting .deb files do not contain anything. I have checked the *.dirs and *.install files and they are fine. Can someone please lend me a hand?
[15:16] <slytherin> geser: that we can discuss once I have package ready and I have tested the reverse-build-depends
[15:17] <geser> slytherin: http://builder.ubuntuwire.com:9998/dist/intrepid/arch/i386/failed has some *-java packages failing to (re)build if you're looking for work :)
[15:18] <slytherin> geser: will take a look
[15:19] <directhex> pfft, java. when there's lovely things like visual basic to work on?
[15:22] <flohack> Anyone with some packaging experience around (strange question on MOTU...)?
[15:23] <broonie> flohack: Just ask your question...
[15:23] <flohack> Repost: I'm trying to package a new library. I created the skeleton using dh_make (adapted the necessary bits following the PackagingGuide). Then I created the package using debuild (it compiles and installs to debian/tmp), but the resulting .deb files do not contain anything. I have checked the *.dirs and *.install files and they are fine. Can someone please lend me a hand?
[15:28] <slytherin> geser: packages that build-depend on kaffee are failing. Will have to see how many of them are important and then migrate them to openjdk
[15:28] <flohack> Can I debug debuild somehow? I'd like to know which files it tries to copy into which .deb package
[15:29] <flohack> ...and why they are not copied
[15:29] <sistpoty|work> flohack: can you pastebin your .install file? also you can debug building with export DV_VERBOSE=1 in debian/rules
[15:29] <flohack> sistpoty|work: Ok, give me a sec...
[15:32] <flohack> http://pastebin.com/m75b8f2be
[15:32] <sistpoty|work> flohack: heh, you've commented out the dh_install call, which will actually install everything listed in .install files ;)