[02:01] <mruiz> ping nixternal
[03:02] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Care to declare the agenda for reference?  (yeah, it's in the e-mail, but hey)
[03:02] <Burgundavia> yep, in a sec
[03:02] <tonyyarusso> 'k
[03:02] <lifeless> meetings on a sunday ?
[03:02] <lifeless> dedication
[03:02] <tonyyarusso> lifeless: Saturday here
[03:03] <lifeless> which meeting ?
[03:03] <Madpilot> Ubuntu Canada
[03:03] <lifeless> cool
[03:03] <lifeless> if not freezing :)
[03:03] <dennister> howdy felow canucks
[03:03] <Burgundavia> lifeless: we are the crazy volunteers, not the crazy employed
[03:03] <Madpilot> hi dennister
[03:04] <Burgundavia> well, lets get going
[03:04] <Burgundavia> hopefully lophyte will come
[03:04] <Burgundavia> welcome to the first Ubuntu Canada meeting
[03:04] <Burgundavia> I hope to get this going on a monthly basis
[03:04] <Burgundavia> first things first: is there somebody that will write up notes afterward?
[03:05] <Burgundavia> do I have to delegate somebody? :)
[03:05] <Burgundavia> right, Madpilot: welcome to your new job
[03:05] <dennister> not everyone at once, pls :)
[03:05] <Burgundavia> you cannot object, you are family
[03:05] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, fine, but you're evil
[03:05] <Burgundavia> alright, the agenda:
[03:05] <Burgundavia> 1. Introductions
[03:05] <Burgundavia> 2. Getting ubuntu membership, how the locoteam can help
[03:05] <Burgundavia> 3. Existing subgroups and projects
[03:05] <Burgundavia> 4. New projects
[03:05] <Burgundavia> 5. Partnerships with existing Linux/FLOSS orgs
[03:06] <Burgundavia> item 1: introductions: please state your name and where you live
[03:06] <somerville32> Cody A.W. Somerville from Fredericton, New Brunswick
[03:06] <dennister> Cathy Martens, Toronto
[03:07] <stryderjzw> Justin Wong, Vancouver, BC
[03:07] <jamonation> Jamon Camisso, Toronto, ON
[03:07] <Burgundavia> anybody else?
[03:08] <Burgundavia> welcome bhearsum
[03:08] <bhearsum> heya
[03:08] <Burgundavia> would you mind introducing yourself?
[03:09] <Burgundavia> we are missing a few, including lophyte, Dave Sullivan, from Toronto, rexbron, from Toronto and robitaille, from Victoria
[03:09] <Burgundavia> alright, next topic: who here is not an Ubuntu member?
[03:10] <jamonation> i am not
[03:10] <kylevan> as in registered?
[03:10] <Phoenix7477> not yet lol
[03:10] <bhearsum> i'm not sure what an Ubuntu member is
[03:10] <Madpilot> kylevan, no, Membership is different
[03:10] <dennister> i have a question in regards to memberships
[03:10] <Burgundavia> as in been through the community council
[03:10] <kylevan> then no
[03:10] <tonyyarusso> See the governance page on the ubuntu.com site, and some related wiki pages, if you don't know what it is.
[03:11] <Burgundavia> right, so ubuntu membership allows you a ubuntu.com email addy and you get some high fives
[03:11] <Burgundavia> it is validation for the hard work you have put in
[03:11] <Madpilot> I know both tonyyarusso & somerville32 have applied for membership at the next CC meeting
[03:11] <dennister> i haven't done it yet, as I hate having my email addy in public view (the spam bots) but I'm afraid it already is via the mailing list
[03:11] <dsas> hugs are the usual currency no? ;)
[03:11] <Burgundavia> usually, yes
[03:11] <Madpilot> dsas, more work seems to be the usual reward ;)
[03:12] <dennister> how are we going to encourage membership with this risk to their identity?
[03:12] <Burgundavia> part of my job as leader of the loco team is to get as many of you through the membership process
[03:12] <bhearsum> what is the benefit to being a member? and what are the responsibilities?
[03:12] <Burgundavia> plus currently elkubuntu's AU team is beating me and I cannot have that :)
[03:12] <Madpilot> dennister, is being part of a publicly archived mailing list really such a risk?
[03:12] <bhearsum> lol
[03:12] <Burgundavia> there are currently not responsibilities
[03:12] <Burgundavia> no, rather
[03:12] <Madpilot> bhearsum, it's mostly a recognition thing
[03:13] <bhearsum> ah
[03:13] <Phoenix7477> makes sense
[03:13] <Burgundavia> ubuntu membership is also required for going further as a developer, if you desire
[03:13] <Madpilot> dennister, WRT identity protection, being a member gets you a nice cloak on IRC and stops your IP from being easily visible
[03:13] <Madpilot> run /whois on either Burgundavia or myself, for example
[03:14] <dennister> i had lag here, did ppl see my question?
[03:14] <Burgundavia> so, here is what is needed to be an ubuntu member: have a visible sustained contribution to something
[03:14] <Burgundavia> usually this involves an existing project, such as the UWN, documentation, helping people on the forums or #ubuntu
[03:15] <Burgundavia> then you construct a wikipage to catalogue your contributions and start asking around for support
[03:15] <kylevan> necessarily directly connected with ubuntu?
[03:15] <Burgundavia> then you go before the CC and say "this is me, this is what I have done"
[03:15] <Burgundavia> yes, directly connected with Ubuntu
[03:15] <kylevan> for example, I'm active on another linux board that isn't ubuntuforums.org
[03:15] <kylevan> well, more active
[03:15] <Burgundavia> check the wikipages for myself, Madpilot or robitaille for more info
[03:16] <kylevan> gotcha
[03:16] <dennister> oh i c, well i have contributed, but I have to apply now? sorry, but that's quite the process, not going to encourage new users
[03:16] <Burgundavia> no need to apply, ever
[03:16] <Madpilot> hi dabaR
[03:16] <Burgundavia> welcome dAndy
[03:16] <dabaR> I do not think I am a member.
[03:17] <tonyyarusso> Well, it's usually not the newest users who go for membership recognition - it takes a little while.
[03:17] <dabaR> I am part of a launchpad group, but I never signed the coc, and so on...
[03:17] <Burgundavia> part of the process is validation that, in fact, your contributions are important
[03:17] <Madpilot> it takes at least a couple of months, absolute minimum, of visible activity to get Membership
[03:17] <stryderjzw> I'd like to start finding ways to contribute first.... lol
[03:17] <Burgundavia> right, so that is the next step
[03:17] <somerville32> stryderjzw, I'm not a member but I've found lots of ways to contribute.
[03:18] <somerville32> stryderjzw, see my wiki page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodySomerville
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> stryderjzw: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/contribute iirc
[03:18] <Burgundavia> so to wrap this up: if you want to be a member, contact me privately after the meeting and I will help you create a wiki page, etc.
[03:18] <dennister> one minute up, followed by 3 minutes lag...more out than in
[03:18] <stryderjzw> somerville32, tonyyarusso: thx
[03:18] <Phoenix7477> will do
[03:18] <Burgundavia> but, yes, absolutely, you can and are encouraged to contribute even if you don't want to or are not a member
[03:18] <Burgundavia> again, I can help you with that
[03:19] <Burgundavia> anything further or shall we move on to 3)?
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> Minor note:
[03:19] <dennister> pont is that we want to encourage memberships, and it seems like there's a lot of work involved that will discourage new users
[03:19] <kylevan> being an ubuntu user isn't connected with having membership...
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> It says "How the locoteam can help", not just "how Burgundavia can help", so you can look to the rest of the folks too.
[03:20] <Madpilot> dennister, getting membership is mostly a matter of: do stuff, document that you're doing stuff, show what you've done, get membership.
[03:20] <Burgundavia> kylevan: when people talk about it in the ubuntu sense, yes
[03:20] <Burgundavia> sorry, misread, you are right
[03:20] <dennister> yes, but also apply, write wiki, get support...
[03:20] <Burgundavia> that is often merely a formality, if you have been already been contributing
[03:21] <Madpilot> dennister, sure, but you don't need a really complex personal page, and 'get support' come pretty much automatically along with 'do stuff'
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> dennister: Right, but it's not for when you're just starting.  After a few months it's no longer intimidating.  It's like "hey, I've done some stuff, I should ask for the recognition"
[03:21] <Burgundavia> trust me: I have been a member for over a year. By the time I went before the CC, I had already been contributing for 6 months
[03:21] <dennister> and if your not a member yet, ur email is there for the spam bots of the world to see
[03:21] <Burgundavia> which is a long time, but it made the issue a breeze
[03:21] <kylevan> dennister, when you say new users, users of what?
[03:22] <kylevan> ubuntu? the mail-list?
[03:22] <dennister> the mail list
[03:22] <dabaR> Yes, it seems it is a little bit of an overhead, but it is a separate task. No reason to not be able to contribute in many useful ways without being a member.
[03:22] <Burgundavia> dennister: spam bots are a fact of life. any contributions are going to trigger them
[03:22] <Madpilot> dabaR, exactly
[03:22] <Burgundavia> dennister: just google my email addy to see it
[03:22] <dabaR> Like I am the most useful person of all that contribute to Ubuntu, and am not a member...
[03:22] <Burgundavia> or anybody else who has a sustained contribution to open source, for that matter
[03:22] <dabaR> haha
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> Or that pretty much uses the internet really...
[03:23] <Burgundavia> ok, anything else?
[03:24] <dennister> <--went for years with no spam
[03:24] <Burgundavia> next point: 3) existing groups and subprojects
[03:24] <Burgundavia> I wish lophyte were here for this
[03:24] <Burgundavia> anyway, Canada is a big country. It is a fact of life. Thus, we are really lots of little groups, rather than one big one
[03:25] <Burgundavia> we already have some existing subgroups, such as Ubuntu Toronto and the little grouping here in Vic
[03:25] <Burgundavia> any others out there?
[03:26] <tonyyarusso> Sort of semi-provincially I think, not that actively meet up in person a lot that I've heard of.
[03:26] <Madpilot> all Ubuntu Victoria does is get together on release days and drink beer ;)
[03:26] <Burgundavia> right
[03:26] <kylevan> sounds like a vital contribution ;)
[03:27] <stryderjzw> anything in Vancouver?
[03:27] <Burgundavia> beer drinking is very vital
[03:27] <apater> I'd be into doing the same with any one in Vancouver
[03:27] <tonyyarusso> s/beer/wine/ and I'd come
[03:27] <Burgundavia> stryderjzw: afaik, no, but there is jeff schering there
[03:27] <kylevan> we could have a GVRD group
[03:27] <stryderjzw> kylevan: agreed
[03:27] <Burgundavia> I encourage people to go looking for existing users in their area and start chatting with each other
[03:27] <Burgundavia> LUGs are a great way to find people
[03:28] <tonyyarusso> I know my local LUG has a few Ubuntu users, and they do Ubuntu installs, but I haven't been able to make a mtg yet.
[03:28] <tonyyarusso> (says so on their web site)
[03:28] <Burgundavia> there is far more Ubuntu out there than most people realize
[03:29] <tonyyarusso>   (site note - do we know the ShipIt stats for Canada?)
[03:29] <Burgundavia> stryderjzw, apater: lets chat later about getting various people from GVRD out
[03:29] <tonyyarusso> (*side)
[03:29] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: stats are currently coming. Christina from Canonical and myself spoke about this a few days ago
[03:29] <kylevan> do we have any sort of initiative for independent advocacy? posters, CD give-outs, etc.
[03:30] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: awesome
[03:30] <Burgundavia> right, this ties into the next thing
[03:30] <kylevan> ah, good
[03:30] <Madpilot> kylevan, ShipIt is still going; there are various posters & such to download
[03:30] <Burgundavia> the most effective we can be is to work with our local groups and LUGs for advocacy
[03:30] <Madpilot> yes, including the 'roughcut' set I designed
[03:31] <Burgundavia> the marketing team is currently working on solving this "marketing stuff" problem
[03:31] <dabaR> Burgundavia: the most effective at what?
[03:31] <Burgundavia> what do people need?
[03:31] <Burgundavia> dabaR: spreading Ubuntu
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> One of my concerns has been wrt ShipIt only doing LTS releases now
[03:32] <Burgundavia> shipit is only going to do LTS from now on
[03:32] <kylevan> what came to my mind is getting some professional looking posters done locally, which can then be distributed to people
[03:32] <dennister> we will need media for our March Break event, but lophyte's last request was turned down for some reason
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> Making CDs has cost associated with it, and it would be great to keep that to a minimum.
[03:32] <Burgundavia> come the next CC meeting, we will be approved and get our 500 Edgy cds
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: What will be the method for distributing those then?
[03:33] <Burgundavia> I will put out a call and see who needs what
[03:33] <Burgundavia> I doubt I will keep more than about 25
[03:33] <Burgundavia> assume shipit is going to be harder to get
[03:33] <Burgundavia> with that in mind, be conservative with giving out cds
[03:34] <stryderjzw> where do we get these cds?
[03:34] <Burgundavia> shipit will ship people free cds
[03:34] <Burgundavia> hey robitaille
[03:34] <Madpilot> hi robitaille
[03:34] <Burgundavia> want to quickly introduce yourself?
[03:35] <robitaille> sorry...I was a bit late
[03:35] <Burgundavia> dennister: excluding cds, what would be the most useful thing that can be created to handout? a whole page or a half one?
[03:35] <dennister> how in the world would we be able to anticipate how many ppl would come to an installfest? for the planning stages of our event?
[03:35] <Burgundavia> installfests have been decreasing in numbers for several years now
[03:35] <tonyyarusso> I burned a stack personally, and started asking $2 for them to cover my costs, and while I've only actually sold one, it's gotten people's attention enough to go home and download/burn it themselves, which serves the same ultimate goal anyway.  There's a nice display stand on the wiki, and I have a 1-pg "What is Ubuntu?" printout that you can put next to it for anyone interested.
[03:35] <Madpilot> dennister, depends on your area and how much publiciity you've been able to get
[03:36] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: I have a whole page, as noted ^^
[03:36] <dennister> a postcard sized one to hand out on street corners
[03:36] <Burgundavia> ok, lets brainstorm on this and get one produced
[03:37] <dennister> we can do publicity, but it's still hard to guess how many will actually come until they do arrive
[03:37] <Madpilot> dennister, I can do a postcard-sized - one-quarter of an 8.5x11 sheet, basically
[03:37] <Burgundavia> you can ask for a rvsp
[03:38] <Burgundavia> dennister: why don't we chat in the -marketing channel post meeting about this card
[03:38] <tonyyarusso> I would love to do a big-screen (digital projector in lecture hall) presentation at my university, possibly followed up with an installfest, but would need help with how to accomplish that.
[03:38] <dennister> ok, i like handing out postcards on the street, more than cd's
[03:38] <Burgundavia> ok: the website: what do people need/want from it?
[03:38] <Madpilot> dennister, I'll start a thread on the ML about a postcard
[03:39] <dennister> ok Burgundavia, will do
[03:39] <dabaR> tonyyarusso: talk to the lab/lecture hall administrator.
[03:39] <dabaR> tonyyarusso: talk to the people that would be able to book it. Or talk with the CS department, get them in on it, and then have them book the room for you.
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> dabaR: I mean wrt the content of the presentation and such; I think I know how to get a room booking.
[03:39] <Burgundavia> welcome rexbron, what to introduce yourself?
[03:39] <dabaR> tonyyarusso: it is up to you what you want to present on.
[03:40] <Burgundavia> lets chat in -marketing about that as well
[03:40] <tonyyarusso> I know Burgundavia has done official presentations of some sort (there are videos), but we can discuss later.
[03:40] <Burgundavia> one of the key things is that neither of these two projects is somethign -ca needs to do itself
[03:40] <tonyyarusso> Right
[03:40] <Burgundavia> we can and should work with other loco teams and the marketing team to make certain we are not duplicating stuff
[03:40] <dabaR> tonyyarusso: I did one in a 30 comp. lab with everyone running live CD, showed them how to get a ssh, web, ftp server up with dyndns for a dns name up in a short time.
[03:40] <somerville32> I think the post-card sized handouts are a really good idea
[03:41] <tonyyarusso> What are the Canada-specific issues in marketing/promotion, if any?
[03:41] <kylevan> wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to get business card sized material?
[03:41] <Burgundavia> kylevan: issue of getting enough information on them, but as another thing, yes
[03:41] <tonyyarusso> For one, big country, with many rural users, that may not have a lot of access to other people and other computers normally.
[03:41] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: upcoming copyright reform is an issue to be talked about
[03:42] <Burgundavia> should we put up a page on the website about it?
[03:42] <rexbron> Hey all
[03:42] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: I'm not even aware of those issues yet.  (I try to follow news, but there's a limit)
[03:42] <rexbron> sorry had to run some unexpected errands
[03:42] <Burgundavia> ok, that works
[03:42] <Burgundavia> I will work on getting some news on that into the public
[03:42] <tonyyarusso> Has anyone had experience spreading Ubuntu to rural areas?
[03:43] <Burgundavia> hey lophylap
[03:43] <lophylap> bah, sorry
[03:43] <dennister> as far as the website is concerned, i'm writing some content for ubuntu-toronto
[03:43] <lophylap> got suckered in to watching a movie with the gf
[03:43] <rexbron> lophylap: lol
[03:43] <tonyyarusso> lophylap: Name, location for the good people
[03:43] <Burgundavia> lophylap: rexbron, robitaille: mind if you tell us your real name and location?
[03:43] <lophylap> dave sullivan, toronto :)
[03:43] <rexbron> Andrew Hunter, Toronto
[03:44] <Burgundavia> we are currently talking about new marketing projects
[03:44] <rexbron> ok cool
[03:44] <Burgundavia> mostly material to hand out, but also how to get information out
[03:44] <rexbron> Mind summarizing the points so far?
[03:44] <rexbron> kok
[03:44] <kylevan> with regards to the website, it might be an idea to pool together a "marketing kit" of sorts
[03:44] <Burgundavia> going to work with the marketing team on a new handout
[03:44] <lophylap> we've got a couple of projects lined up in Toronto at the moment
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> kylevan: The marketing team is working on that actually
[03:45] <Burgundavia> but please get involved
[03:45] <Burgundavia> never assume somebody is working on something
[03:45] <kylevan> basically so that people that might not even have a LUG near them can do some independent advocacy
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> right
[03:45] <lophylap> ah.
[03:45] <kylevan> i haven't been to the DIYmarketing wiki for a while
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> They're working on making that part of the wiki a site of its own.
[03:46] <dennister> imagine canada and volunteer canada have a fair amount of literature on volunteerism in rurual areas
[03:46] <tonyyarusso> We've been just starting to see layout drafts.
[03:46] <Madpilot> dennister, any of it online?
[03:46] <Burgundavia> dennister: mind posting links to the -ml?
[03:46] <dennister> tons...mostly all online
[03:47] <somerville32> What about writing letters to our MPs to help make them aware of OSS and OSS issues.
[03:47] <dennister> do a google search for anything, imagine canada and volunteer canada's stuff will come up
[03:47] <somerville32> +?
[03:47] <lophylap> it'd definitely be nice to have a marketing package to hand out to local computer vendors and such
[03:47] <kylevan> well, I realize that there may be a project going on right now, but perhaps as a stop-gap including some useful links on ubuntu-ca.org
[03:47] <zul> hi
[03:47] <lophylap> that's something I think we're lacking
[03:47] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: +1 on that
[03:47] <Burgundavia> yep
[03:47] <Burgundavia> welcome zul
[03:47] <Madpilot> somerville32, sure, along with the copyright/IP issues
[03:47] <Burgundavia> zul is our sole developer and one of the lead Xen devs in Ubuntu
[03:47] <dennister> sorry, but MP's will see OSS's as something beneath their radar
[03:47] <Burgundavia> zul: mind giving us your real name and location?
[03:48] <kylevan> I've been working my MP about network neutrality lately
[03:48] <zul> Chuck Short from the cold capital of canada
[03:48] <tonyyarusso> Is Canada talking about net neutrality?  I know they are in the US
[03:48] <lophylap> yup, we are
[03:48] <kylevan> to a degree
[03:48] <lophylap> neutrality.ca
[03:48] <dennister> we need to talk less about technology and more about human needs for marketing to work
[03:48] <tonyyarusso> zul: cold capital?  Resolute?
[03:48] <Burgundavia> as for promoting OSS to MPs, it is important to promote the wider world of OSS, not just Ubuntu
[03:48] <kylevan> lophylap, ya beat me to it
[03:48] <zul> tonyyarusso: ottawa
[03:48] <tonyyarusso> psssh
[03:49] <kylevan> hah
[03:49] <Burgundavia> general OSS promotion should probably be done through CLUE
[03:49] <kylevan> if anyone wants, I can give you tories' form letter regarding network neutrality
[03:49] <lophylap> Burgundavia: I think dennister has a good point, and I think this is the reason that OSS marketing has mostly failed
[03:49] <tonyyarusso> clue.ca?  (/me hasn't heard of)
[03:49] <dennister> we're a bunch of techies, or techie-wannabes...we need to talk other non-technical languages
[03:49] <Burgundavia> yep
[03:49] <lophylap> we're pushing technological advantages of Linux/OSS on to people.. "its more stable, there's no viruses" etc.
[03:49] <Madpilot> dennister, exactly - you need to be on the -marketing ML, if you aren't already
[03:50] <tonyyarusso> Okay, what are the issues in non-technical terms?
[03:50] <lophylap> we need to push the human side out of people for it to appeal
[03:50] <dennister> by pushing apple-pie issues we will get people to lsiten
[03:50] <sid> tonyyarusso: freedom
[03:50] <Burgundavia> http://cluecan.ca/
[03:50] <sid> tonyyarusso: That is non-technical and lots of people seem to get that term.
[03:50] <Burgundavia> we need to push value
[03:50] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: thx
[03:50] <dennister> the issues are education, civil liberties, helping the poor
[03:51] <Burgundavia> so tell them about things like the ability to watch and do things as they like, not how big corps want
[03:51] <dennister> yes, value, independence, freedom
[03:51] <kylevan> could we say environmental impact from electronics waste?
[03:51] <Burgundavia> talk to them about access to education and computers
[03:51] <Burgundavia> yep, that is a good one
[03:51] <dennister> yes, environmentalism will help
[03:51] <sid> kylevan: Why is that a factor? hardware running proprietary software or free software still does equal damage to the environment.
[03:51] <dennister> access to education and computers for al, social justice... these will resonate
[03:51] <kylevan> i'm talking about "my old computer won't run vista, I'm gonna chuck it"
[03:52] <Burgundavia> sid: we can reuse existing hardware that doesn
[03:52] <Burgundavia> t run windows any more
[03:52] <sid> ahh, yes
[03:52] <sid> ltsp
[03:52] <kylevan> on that note...
[03:52] <Burgundavia> yep, or xubuntu
[03:52] <somerville32> WOOT! :D
[03:52] <Burgundavia> somerville32: showing your colours? :)
[03:52] <sid> You should make a wiki about what makes free software valuable.(freedom being at the top of the list, imho)
[03:52] <kylevan> on notebookreview.com we had a number of people coming in asking how to wipe win98 and install linux recently
[03:52] <dennister> methinks we have agreement: talk less tech, more social issues
[03:52] <lophylap> indeed
[03:52] <sid> Does this group have a web page?
[03:53] <lophylap> http://www.ubuntu.ca/
[03:53] <sid> k
[03:53] <Burgundavia> my server still up?
[03:53] <Madpilot> sid, this is the Ubuntu Canada locoteam meeting
[03:53] <somerville32> :]
[03:53] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, yup, but I bet it just started working harder
[03:53] <lophylap> is there anything Canadian-specific that we can tie into this?
[03:53] <Burgundavia> lophylap: the need for resources to market with
[03:53] <lophylap> what can we do to make Ubuntu appeal to Canadians?
[03:54] <dennister> our vision and values are non-technical; it's the mission of ubuntu that helps us achieve the vision
[03:54] <Phoenix7477> perhaps something about the ease of transitioning, i know alot of people that have this as a problem when considering using gnu/linux. Talk about how you can use LiveCD to try it out, for example
[03:54] <lophylap> not just 'people'.. Canadians
[03:54] <kylevan> beaver backgrounds?
[03:54] <kylevan> ;)
[03:54] <tonyyarusso> He may have a point.
[03:54] <Burgundavia> people have most of the same computing pains the world over
[03:54] <tonyyarusso> Some good localized artwork would be nice.
[03:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: you want to do a local background we can stick on the website?
[03:55] <Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/wallpaper/UC_wallpaper1.png <-- tonyyarusso, like this? (this'll really stress the server...)
[03:55] <sid> Why not just put up signs near bridges that are over busy highways.(if that's legal) It's legal in USA, first amendment and all. At the next LoCo meeting bring some big paper and paint or something.(good idea or bad?)
[03:55] <dennister> something that strikes me is how the ubuntu logo resembes maple leaf
[03:55] <kylevan> sid, I don't think the whole loco team is gonna meet up
[03:55] <Madpilot> dennister, I'm way ahead of you there too: http://ubuntu-ca.org/logo/Ubuntu_Canada_logo.png
[03:55] <sid> "Use software with freedom, help your community, share collaborate... www.ubuntu.ca"
[03:55] <Burgundavia> dennister: that is our logo, not Ubuntus one
[03:55] <rexbron> have you seen the Ubuntu -ca
[03:55] <rexbron> ?
[03:55] <kylevan> that's a few kms
[03:55] <tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Like that, yes, although I don't personally like that particular one (too "busy")
[03:55] <tonyyarusso> More though
[03:55] <dennister> soemthing that is uniquely canadian is our relaxed-compared-to-us copying laws
[03:56] <lophylap> ture
[03:56] <lophylap> true*
[03:56] <Burgundavia> yep, but people don't get exciting about that kind of stuff
[03:56] <dennister> and we have privacy laws too, unlike the us
[03:56] <Burgundavia> for the record, I sell desktop Linux everyday
[03:56] <Burgundavia> it is a facinating insight into what makes people choose technology
[03:56] <tonyyarusso> Not for getting excited, but it might be something we can use to our advantage at in-between stages.
[03:56] <Burgundavia> they are about their pain, not somebody elses
[03:57] <dennister> no, people don't get excited, but it's part of our analysis of why ubuntu should grow more easily in canada...another point we could use in marketing is canadian anti-us feelings
[03:57] <tonyyarusso> For instance, I'm not clear on the legality here, but I heard someone suggest Canada might be able to distribute disks with many !restricted formats included.
[03:57] <Burgundavia> I would be hesitant to promote us using that
[03:57] <kylevan> negative marketing isn't so cool
[03:57] <Phoenix7477> yeah
[03:57] <sid> tonyyarusso: Well it depends if it's copyright or patents.
[03:57] <kylevan> at least on that scale
[03:57] <lophylap> indeed
[03:57] <dennister> o i'd agree...last thing we want is negative us-bashing
[03:57] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: the one thing we are not going to do is to create a local Ubuntu build for canada
[03:57] <Burgundavia> we cannot support it
[03:57] <lophylap> that's been discussed before
[03:57] <dennister> being negative at all is bad for marketing
[03:58] <rexbron> That was dusscussed already right?
[03:58] <lophylap> and I don't really like the idea
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Point taken.
[03:58] <lophylap> too much work
[03:58] <Burgundavia> too little of us have that kind of technical skill
[03:58] <kylevan> could we create a canadian localization package in the repos?
[03:58] <sid> tonyyarusso: The next Ubuntu release will differentiate between restrictive countries and free'er countries. So that will be included in Feisty iirc
[03:58] <Burgundavia> what is the need?
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> kylevan: I'd like that
[03:58] <kylevan> backgrounds, themes, etc.
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> sid: Interesting
[03:58] <Burgundavia> those can be distrbuted from a website just as easily
[03:58] <Burgundavia> sid: that is incorrect
[03:59] <Burgundavia> there is nothing liek that on the table
[03:59] <sid> tonyyarusso: But imho, if you're distributing binary blobs, or binary only codecs..you're doing a dis-service to your fellow Canadians.
[03:59] <tonyyarusso> Themes & backgrounds came up in a conversation with Ralph on the mailing list as well, for groups within Canada.
[03:59] <somerville32> Just create a package with Canada theme stuff
[03:59] <tonyyarusso> sid: I agree; just that people want them.  Anyway, we can drop that topic.  Bad direction.
[03:59] <Burgundavia> ok, lets wrap this up, as it has already run an hour
[04:00] <kylevan> Burgundavia, fair enough about using a website
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> I think things like art make more sense on the LoCo level then
[04:00] <Burgundavia> we need to produce some marketing stuff
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> #4?
[04:00] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: we are already talking about 4 and 5
[04:00] <lophylap> Burgundavia: did you talk about my earlier suggestion?
[04:00] <Burgundavia> lophylap: which was that?
[04:00] <lophylap> making meetings monthly, and encouraging people to start something in their municipality
[04:00] <Burgundavia> yep, both are good ideas
[04:01] <kylevan> who are the vancouver-area people again?
[04:01] <Burgundavia> let tentatively set the next meeting to be a month from now, the 2nd Sat. of the month
[04:01] <tonyyarusso> I have a new project also.  Not sure it needs much discussion here, but see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOjibweTranslators and follow up with me later if you're interested.
[04:01] <Burgundavia> kylevan: I know one as well
[04:01] <apater> yo
[04:02] <Burgundavia> yes, native languages
[04:02] <Burgundavia> anybody here native or have connections with native groups?
[04:02] <somerville32> I do
[04:02] <somerville32> That is, I have connections with native groups.
[04:02] <Burgundavia> one of things I want to start, but live in the wrong part of the country, is to figure out how to translate Ubuntu into these languages
[04:03] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Which groups, where?
[04:03] <dennister> test
[04:03] <Burgundavia> dennister: you are bouncing in a out
[04:03] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Were you looking into any other than Inuktitut?
[04:03] <Burgundavia> and out, rather
[04:03] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: no, I realized I simply don't have the connections or the time, currently
[04:03] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, I can't spell it, haha
[04:03] <dennister> i know...really annoying...one minute in for 3 minutes each...lag
[04:04] <Burgundavia> dennister: the log is available
[04:04] <dennister> link? thx in advance
[04:04] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Try?
[04:04] <dennister> would love to get rid of lag
[04:04] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, McMac? lol
[04:04] <Burgundavia> dennister: people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[04:04] <somerville32> Umm..
[04:04] <dennister> ty
[04:04] <somerville32> And a few others that are on the tip of my tongue.
[04:04] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Okay.  Cool.
[04:05] <somerville32> I'll try to get some students from the local High Schools to translate Ubuntu into their language. They're always looking for volunteer stuff.
[04:05] <Burgundavia> that woudl be cool
[04:05] <tonyyarusso> Maybe we should have some generalized info about native language work on the ubuntu.ca site, and add translation efforts as they get going.
[04:06] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: can you create such a page and get it to me or Madpilot?
[04:06] <Burgundavia> plain html
[04:06] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: I can help tell you about the process for setting up a LP team and mailing list later.
[04:06] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, The latter would be useful knowledge.
[04:06] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Sure.  Not right away (exams) but over break I hope to do some work.
[04:06] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[04:06] <dennister> there's the ojibwe project from ubuntu-toronto...first nations projects market well
[04:07] <somerville32> How can we get write access to the ubuntu-ca website?
[04:07] <Burgundavia> there is probably money and people available for them, if we sell them right
[04:07] <Burgundavia> somerville32: you bug me
[04:07] <Burgundavia> somerville32: after, in -ca
[04:07] <tonyyarusso> dennister: Tell me more about what Toronto's doing later - I've had only loose contact with them.
[04:07] <Burgundavia> anything further?
[04:07] <dennister> lot of interest in orgs that do 'good works' for others...ok
[04:07] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Although Harper is slashing the money drastically - my prof was just at a protest in Ottawa.
[04:07] <dennister> lophyte knows about that ojibwe project
[04:08] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: gov will change eventually. We can only hope
[04:08] <tonyyarusso> Right.
[04:08] <rexbron> Burgundavia: I thought we were going to keep politics out of this
[04:08] <Madpilot> somerville32, best way to get 'write access' to ubuntu.ca currently is to just email the list. Burgundavia & I both have access to the server
[04:08] <tonyyarusso> dennister: roger
[04:08] <tonyyarusso> lophylap: (We'll talk later?)
[04:08] <dennister> harper's gov is horrible...slashing money to charities...hope the gov fails over the budget
[04:08] <Burgundavia> rexbron: I was referring to them cutting, rather than the specific govs
[04:09] <Burgundavia> anyway, I think we have a bunch of stuff to work on and I it was good have a meeting and meet all the new people
[04:09] <rexbron> dennister: I would review the cuts to see if they are worth while rather than just extol the phrase "all cuts are bad"
[04:09] <Burgundavia> so to wrap up: if you want help with membership, I am your man
[04:10] <Burgundavia> for the marketing stuff, lets move to -marketing
[04:10] <dennister> have we decided on clue vs metalug?
[04:10] <dennister> or both?
[04:10] <Burgundavia> both
[04:10] <rexbron> Burgundavia: How large of a portfolio would you sugest for membership?
[04:10] <Burgundavia> hopefully they will become one
[04:10] <dennister> great, thx
[04:10] <Burgundavia> rexbron: depends on the person
[04:10] <Burgundavia> and teh contributions
[04:11] <dennister> when cuts mean tons of people in charities losing jobs, that's bad
[04:11] <Burgundavia> for the native lang stuff, lets coordinate via the wiki and the mailing list
[04:11] <dennister> the entire nonprofit sector (huge) is up in arms about it
[04:11] <Burgundavia> and for the political stuff -offtopic beckons
[04:11] <tonyyarusso> (only kind of)
[04:11] <dennister> ok...
[04:11] <tonyyarusso> (##politics ;) )
[04:11] <Burgundavia> or that
[04:11] <rexbron> dennister: the star has a report that 80% of MADD's fundrasing goes to fund more fundraisign
[04:11] <Burgundavia> final words anybody?
[04:12] <rexbron> something is wrong if that happens
[04:12] <Burgundavia> rexbron: I am quite serious
[04:12] <rexbron> kk
[04:12] <Burgundavia> this is not Ubuntu related
[04:12] <dennister> but i would recommend some of the research on encouraging volunteerism on the web, from imagine canada and volunteer canada
[04:12] <Burgundavia> dennister: can you post that to the ml?
[04:13] <dennister> what's the ml?
[04:13] <Burgundavia> mailing list
[04:13] <dennister> oh mailing list
[04:13] <dennister> will do
[04:13] <Burgundavia> excellent
[04:13] <tonyyarusso> I think it would be really cool to have more in-person get-together's, but physical distance makes that very difficult in Canada.  Maybe something every couple of years or so - long term back-burner thought.
[04:13] <kylevan> everyone, we're going to Regina!
[04:13] <Burgundavia> I travel fairly extensively, so I imagine I will get to visit at least some of you
[04:13] <Burgundavia> perk of the job
[04:14] <dennister> hey!
[04:14] <Madpilot> tonyyarusso, we should lobby to have another Ubuntu Dev summit in Canada - Vancouver, maybe
[04:14] <dennister> have we discussed some of the upcoming conferences?
[04:14] <somerville32> What about encouraging the youth of Canada to participate?
[04:14] <tonyyarusso> Madpilot: That would be sweet.  No idea how those are decided.
[04:14] <Burgundavia> which ones?
[04:14] <dennister> presence at? like the cute conference in toronto would be good
[04:14] <Burgundavia> dennister: that wiki page I created?
[04:14] <dennister> yes, was looking at it
[04:14] <Burgundavia> need volunteers
[04:14] <kylevan> somerville32, I'm hoping to get some marketing stuff up at SFU where I attend classes
[04:15] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: I'm in a concurrent education program, and have placements in high schools, where I try to mention it and hand out a couple of CDs.  More things like that kind of contact would be awesome.
[04:15] <Burgundavia> if you say you can do it, I can probably get you in the door
[04:15] <dennister> i think we can get volunteers, need marketing material soon tho, to distribute at table
[04:15] <dennister> Jan 11-13 is cute conference...young university ppl
[04:15] <Burgundavia> dennister: round me up some volunteers and lets chat
[04:15] <dennister> ok...will bring it up on wed at ubuntu-toronto meeting
[04:16] <rexbron> dennister: is cute an acronym?
[04:16] <dennister> yes, conference university...something like that...it's on the conference table on corey's wiki
[04:16] <somerville32> I'll e-mail the schools and universities here in Fredericton to see if I can get more people involved.
[04:16] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanadianTeam/Conferences
[04:16] <dennister> high school and university students are good target markets
[04:16] <Burgundavia> yes, they are
[04:17] <somerville32> I also seem a few Fredericton contacts on the ubuntu-ca wiki page, I'll see if I can get them to help me
[04:17] <dennister> they're poor, they're politically aware, need pc's, looking for alternatives
[04:17] <kylevan> Burgundavia, I'm interested in doing some advocacy at my school, can I pick your brain on how to go about it?
[04:17] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: It would be good if we could coordinate university efforts as well - many users in that age group.
[04:17] <rexbron> Burgundavia: I am currently getting involved with Ubuntu Studio to try and get that project off the groud
[04:17] <rexbron> ground
[04:17] <Burgundavia> kylevan: sure
[04:17] <kylevan> -marketing perhaps?
[04:17] <Burgundavia> rexbron: interesting
[04:17] <Burgundavia> -ca is probably better
[04:17] <rexbron> that would be a good vector to target the Fine Arts kiddies
[04:18] <kylevan> fair enough
[04:18] <dennister> yes, the artsies are poor, too, good target market
[04:18] <somerville32> Whats the best version of Ubuntu to demonstrate to Users?
[04:18] <somerville32> And what about Ubuntu sister projects?
[04:18] <somerville32> Like Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu?
[04:19] <somerville32> First impression is everything
[04:19] <kylevan> basically when/where can I get marketing material.  I could print up the poster that Jenda(?) put on ubuntuforums.org, but I dont really have the resources to do very many
[04:19] <dennister> me, i like kubuntu...i think more xp-migrators will like kubuntu
[04:19] <Burgundavia> in general, I say Ubuntu to everybody, Edubuntu to those who needs it, and Xubuntu for slow machines
[04:19] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu simply gets more work and more polish than Kubuntu
[04:19] <rexbron> there are 20 people in the York U linux users group on face book
[04:19] <rexbron> interesting
[04:20] <dennister> my alma mater :)
[04:20] <rexbron> they have a channel, #yucc
[04:20] <rexbron> on freenode
[04:20] <rexbron> might want to see if there are any Ubuntu users there
[04:20] <Burgundavia> ok, final thoughts, so we can call this meeting closed
[04:20] <Burgundavia> ?
[04:20] <Burgundavia> and head back to -ca for further dicussion?
[04:20] <dennister> interesting :)
[04:21] <dennister> i'm ok with that
[04:21] <tonyyarusso> Sounds fine
[04:21] <rexbron> righty o
[04:21] <Burgundavia> thanks everybody for coming! nice to see some new faces and hopefully you will stick around :)
[04:21] <dennister> i'll be there in a sec...will head to yucc
[04:21] <kylevan> sure
[04:21] <stryderjzw> thanks Burgundavia!
[04:21] <somerville32> Whens the next meeting?
[04:21] <kylevan> good to meet everyone
[04:22] <Madpilot> somerville32, TBA, Jan. sometime I guess
[04:22] <dennister> yes, likewise
[04:22] <Burgundavia> next meeting 2nd sat of Jan.
[04:22] <Madpilot> thanks all for coming out
[04:22] <Burgundavia> tentatively


[10:21] <rmg51> Morning
[12:49] <JonathanD> Morning.
[13:16] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, dogs, turkeys, hamsters and everything else
[13:20] <waltman> The sound of sleet pounding against your window in the morning is a lot more pleasant when you know you don't have to wake up and go out into it.
[13:23] <rmg51> doesn't help me :-/
[13:23] <rmg51> I'm at work :P
[13:23] <rmg51> at least the driving was easy
[13:24] <rmg51> very few cars
[13:24] <rmg51> just put it into gear and go
[13:26] <waltman> Drexel sent out an email around 9:30 last night saying they were closed today. :)
[13:28] <JonathanD> morning waltman, rmg51
[13:28] <JonathanD> our office is closed as well, working from home.
[13:28] <rmg51> o/
[13:46] <JonathanD> I think it might be snowing.
[14:28] <lazyPower_> o/
[16:02] <ChinnoDog> No snow day for teleworkers :-(
[17:58] <InHisName> anything exciting between 11am and now that I missed ?
[22:57] <pleia2> replies to emails from april 2013 \o/


[13:44] <BluesKaj> hey all
[18:53] <genii-around> Odd. uname -a reports the architecture 3 times
[18:54] <penguin42> genii-around: They are the equivalents of the -m -p and -i options
[18:54] <penguin42> genii-around: For machine, processor and hardware-platform
[18:54] <genii-around> penguin42: Ah, OK
[18:54] <penguin42> genii-around: On my 32 bit install I get i686 i686 i386 (not sure which order!)
[18:55] <genii-around> I'm getting x86_64 3 times
[18:55] <penguin42> nod
[21:38] <MrChrisDruif> BluesKaj; hi also
[21:39] <MrChrisDruif> I've triaged that lightdm bug a little bit more
[21:39] <BluesKaj> Hi MrChrisDruif
[21:40] <MrChrisDruif> It seems the background DOES change but only with the default wallpapers
[21:50] <MrChrisDruif> So yeah, should I file a bug about it BluesKaj ?
[21:56] <BluesKaj> MrChrisDruif, well, if it's a bug , would be good to check launchpad first to prevent duplicates
[21:57] <MrChrisDruif> It would also depend on what the design specification is, but I think it's not the idea that it doesn't change to personal wallpapers
[23:52] <Debolaz> Hmmm, alternate installer gone in 12.10… Not sure what I think about that.
[23:53] <MrChrisDruif> Is that so?
[23:53] <MrChrisDruif> Where is that decision been announced?
[23:54] <MrChrisDruif> Debolaz; ^
[23:54] <MrChrisDruif> (Because I know for a fact that Lubuntu relies on the alternate more so then Ubuntu does)
[23:54] <Debolaz> It was apparently mentioned at the UDS. It wasn't that the functionality of it would be going though, but rather that the normal installer would be beefed up to do the same tasks.
[23:55] <MrChrisDruif> Will they make Ubiquity as light as the alternate? That would be quite dandy ^_^
[23:55] <Debolaz> Also, it might not disappear from Lubuntu, as that's not managed by Canonical.
[23:56] <Debolaz> The alternate installer is developed by the Debian project.
[23:57] <MrChrisDruif> That's true, so as long as it's available for Lubuntu (team I'm with) it's okay
[23:58] <Debolaz> My main concern though is if they'll be able or prioritize getting the partition editor into the main installer.
[23:59] <MrChrisDruif> There is a partition editor in the installer, what is it lacking?


[00:06] <mwhudson> thumper: heh
[00:07] <thumper> mwhudson: want to review it?
[00:07] <mwhudson> thumper: yeah alright
[00:07]  * thumper sends
[00:13] <thumper> mwhudson: sent, now just flowing through the ether
[00:16] <mwhudson> thumper: ok
[00:25]  * thumper heading afk for a while
[00:28] <thumper> mwhudson: hmm, my bzr send caused an oops :(
[00:28] <thumper> I'll look at that later
[00:28] <thumper> mwhudson: did a manual propose
[00:29] <mwhudson> ok
[00:30] <mwhudson> thumper: i'm going to get this script running with spm and then break for lunch though
[00:30] <spm> mwhudson: it may take a while; that's a huge patch for my itsy network connection.
[00:31] <mwhudson> spm: 75k?
[00:32] <spm> mwhudson: your irony detector is broken. ;-)
[00:32] <mwhudson> i see :)
[00:32] <mwhudson> it needs lunch too, it seems
[00:32] <spm> that'd do it.
[01:40] <wgrant> Uhoh.
[01:40] <wgrant> Some bits of LP use string sorting on version numbers.
[01:40] <wgrant> (DistributionSourcePackageView.active_series is the most obvious so far)
[01:58] <mwhudson> i guess we've got one more release before that bites us on the arse?
[02:25] <wgrant> mwhudson: No. Lucid exists now.
[02:25] <wgrant> eg. see https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpkg
[02:26] <wgrant> Just display glitches, fortunately.
[02:26] <wgrant> But still had me confused that Lucid wasn't yet initialised.
[02:28] <mwhudson> wgrant: oh yeah
[03:11]  * Ursinha looks at spm
[03:11] <spm> Ursinha: yo!
[03:11] <Ursinha> :)
[03:12] <Ursinha> spm, hey :) are you busy now?
[03:12] <Ursinha> terribly-dying busy?
[03:12] <spm> mind you - that's an impressive 15000km stare you have :-D
[03:12] <Ursinha> hahaha
[03:12] <spm> Ursinha: nothing that can't be put aside; what's up?
[03:12] <Ursinha> spm, it's a simple question, that maybe has a simple answer :)
[03:13] <Ursinha> spm, I see emails of a garbo-hourly script failing
[03:13] <Ursinha> do you know why is it happening?
[03:13] <spm> hahahahaa oh the irony.
[03:13] <Ursinha> why? :)
[03:13] <spm> I was just chasing that and emailed stub about 15 mins ago :-)
[03:13] <Ursinha> oh, hehe
[03:13] <spm> afaict, it is working; but isn't logging to scriptacivity.
[03:13] <Ursinha> hmmm, I see
[03:14] <spm> there's an error in the log file; that may be glitching the "success"; but locks are opened and removed; so it looks good.
[03:14] <spm> checkwatches was hung - if that's the next question? :-)
[03:15] <wgrant> Of course. It's checkwatches. It hasn't worked for ages.
[03:38] <thumper> spm: how's our script going?
[03:39] <spm> thumper: branch-distro ? you've not read mwh's email?
[03:39] <mwhudson> thumper: it's not :(
[03:39] <thumper> ah
[03:39] <thumper> bum
[03:41] <mwhudson> yes
[04:05] <thumper> mwhudson: so... my review?
[04:05] <mwhudson> thumper: sorry forgot, am on it now
[04:05] <mwhudson> or would be if launchpad was behaving
[04:06] <thumper> mwhudson: so... my oops with send oopsed due to a branch lock
[04:07] <mwhudson> thumper: bzr lock or database lock?
[04:07] <mwhudson> "!" either way mind
[04:07] <thumper> bzr lock
[04:07] <thumper> mwhudson: the scanner acquires a branch lock
[04:07] <thumper> so...
[04:07] <mwhudson> no it doesn't
[04:07]  * thumper thinks
[04:07] <thumper> ah
[04:07] <mwhudson> or at least, it's only a read lock
[04:07] <thumper> I'm pretty sure it does
[04:07] <mwhudson> it access the branch over read only http
[04:07]  * thumper looks
[04:08] <mwhudson> if it can obtain an exclusive lock over that transport something very strange is going on! :)
[04:08] <thumper> yep, lock-read
[04:08] <thumper> so...
[04:08] <thumper> how does that work then?
[04:09] <mwhudson> a read lock just means that the bzr client assumes the branch won't change under it
[04:09] <mwhudson> it caches revnos & probably some other things
[04:10] <thumper> so...
[04:10] <mwhudson> thumper: i would guess the lock was from the puller
[04:10] <thumper> hmm...
[04:10] <thumper> possibly
[04:11] <thumper> I guess there isn't much else that tries to lock it
[04:12] <lifeless> mwhudson: no, it doesn't assume it won't change
[04:12] <lifeless> mwhudson: it presents a stable view of the data to the holder of the read lock
[04:13] <mwhudson> er i guess that's more accurate yes
[04:13] <lifeless> e.g. successive calls to last_revision() are the same within a read lock
[04:13] <lifeless> old formats did mutually exclude writers
[04:13] <lifeless> when we used os locks for reads of branch/repository
[04:14]  * thumper goes to purchase many pizzas to feed a gaggle of girls
[04:14] <mwhudson> thumper: i'll have your branch reviewed when you get back i hope
[04:44]  * thumper is back
[04:47] <mwhudson> thumper: ok i was wrong then
[04:47] <thumper> mwhudson: :)
[04:47] <thumper> I did look though
[04:47] <mwhudson> thumper: the only concern i have really is what it will look like if the attachment isn't actually a diff
[04:48] <thumper> mwhudson: the diff formatter looks at the first character
[04:48] <thumper> to decide how to colour it
[04:48] <mwhudson> thumper: oh ok
[04:48] <thumper> but yes
[04:48] <thumper> I did consider possibly doing text/plain different
[04:49] <mwhudson> thumper: what would happen with say image/jpeg?
[04:49] <mwhudson> do they get filtered somewhere else?
[04:49] <thumper> but decided against it
[04:49] <thumper> the diff formatter is pretty dumb
[04:52] <thumper> most likely you'll get line numbers and everything plain
[04:52] <thumper> for things that aren't actually diffs
[05:03] <thumper> mwhudson: yes, not shown
[05:03] <mwhudson> thumper: cool
[05:03] <thumper> mwhudson: that is a different bug
[05:03] <mwhudson> :)
[05:03] <thumper> or feature
[05:03] <mwhudson> not displaying random binaries as text is definitely a feature
[05:10] <thumper> mwhudson: there is a filter on text/plain, text/x-diff, text/x-patch
[05:10] <mwhudson> cool
[05:10]  * mwhudson EOWs
[05:11] <thumper> mwhudson: have a good weekend
[05:11] <mwhudson> thumper: you too!
[05:32] <jtv> stub: I think I've got my memory hog.  Essentially the same as in phase 2 of the algorithm.  Generalizing the same solution to re-apply it.  Care to review it in a few?
[06:26] <jtv> stub: got my branch ready... would you be willing to (1) do a test run and (2) review it?
[06:26] <jtv> stub: you already know a lot of what goes on in there, so you're probably the best reviewer at this point.
[06:36] <stub> k
[06:36] <stub> jtv: k
[06:37] <stub> jtv: What was the branch again?
[06:37] <stub> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jtv/launchpad/scale-message-sharing-migration/
[06:38] <stub> jtv: I'll need to know the last unreviewed revision too
[07:11] <jtv> hi henninge
[07:11] <jtv> stub: I must be off... any news?
[07:50] <henninge> Hi jtv, I somehow missed your hailing ...
[07:58] <jtv> henninge: never mind, I'm not here
[07:59] <henninge> jtv: oh right, that's why I didn't notice you, then ... ;)
[07:59] <jtv> henninge: no, no word
[08:02] <henninge> jtv: I'll be relocating now
[08:27] <adeuring> good morning
[09:34] <mrevell> Morning!
[09:49] <henninge> Hello!
[09:49] <henninge> Does anybody have an idea what this might be about? http://paste.ubuntu.com/304910/
[09:50] <noodles775> henninge: usually it means that you're not currently logged in?
[09:50] <henninge> noodles775: oh, that is true (that I am not logged in)
[09:50] <noodles775> great.
[09:50] <henninge> noodles775: I am doing this in a pagetest
[09:51] <noodles775> henninge: yep, so pop a<EMAIL_ADDRESS>before it (or with relevant user).
[09:51] <stub> henninge: Some code expects you to be logged in, such as something trying to security wrap an object.
[09:54] <jml> good morning
[09:54] <henninge> noodles775, stub: Thank you, that was it. I needed to logout, too, so that the rest of the test can run as before.
[09:54] <noodles775> np.
[11:59] <maxb> Is there a standard procedure for updating the version number of Launchpad in the Launchpad sourcecode documented anywhere?
[12:01] <salgado> maxb, I don't think so.  do you just want to know how to do it or are you planning to create such doc if one doesn't exist?
[12:01] <maxb> A bit of both. Mainly I think it sucks that some places still say 2.2.3
[12:02] <salgado> really?  where does it say that?
[12:03] <salgado> all places which mention the release should be using modules/canonical.launchpad.versioninfo/release
[12:04] <maxb> salgado: setup.py
[12:04] <salgado> and that call I pasted above would read the version number from /version.txt
[12:12] <salgado> maxb, would it be possible to change canonical/launchpad/versioninfo.py to read the version number from setup.py?  that way we'd have that info in only one place
[12:12]  * wgrant wouldn't mind another set of eyes on bug #54730.
[12:12] <mup> Bug #54730: launchpad buildd abort does not work as expected <Launchpad Auto Build System:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/54730>
[12:13] <wgrant> Although I guess there are few left who know lp-buildd :(
[12:16] <maxb> salgado: How about doing this in setup.py instead: ?
[12:16] <maxb> import imp
[12:16] <maxb> versioninfo_module = imp.load_source('setup_py_versioninfo',
[12:16] <maxb>         'lib/canonical/launchpad/versioninfo.py')
[12:16] <maxb> __version__ = versioninfo_module.release
[12:19] <salgado> that adds one more level of indirection
[12:19] <salgado> the actual version would go version.txt -> versioninfo -> setup.py
[12:19] <salgado> if we move the version to setup.py, it'd go setup.py -> versioninfo.py
[12:20] <maxb> The problem with putting it in setup.py is that you need to be able to load it without executing any of the setuptools gumph
[12:21] <maxb> I guess we could move almost all of the current setup.py inside an if __name__ == '__main__'
[12:22] <salgado> yeah, that'd work
[12:24] <wgrant> How do you get at setup.py from versioninfo.py?
[12:25] <maxb> Same way you get at bzr-version-info.py ?
[12:26] <wgrant> Ah. I see.
[12:27] <maxb> Though maybe rather than moving all of setup.py into an if-block, it would be neater to have setup.py and c.l.versioninfo both get the version from a oneliner lp_version_info.py ?
[14:14] <henninge> Ursinha: what are you trying to achieve?
[14:14] <Ursinha> henninge, good!
[14:15] <Ursinha> henninge, I'm trying to add a Last Edited column to the +translations pages, like this one: https://translations.launchpad.dev/alsa-utils/trunk/+translations
[14:16] <henninge> oops, no dev running here atm
[14:16] <henninge> Ursinha: I think you are on the wrong track
[14:16] <Ursinha> so I've added it to the template, and am trying to use the fmt:datetime do display the date the same way it's displayed in this one: https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+lang/pt_BR/+index
[14:16] <henninge> Ursinha: you are trying to format a datetime object
[14:16] <Ursinha> henninge, hmm
[14:16] <Ursinha> go ahead
[14:16] <henninge> wait
[14:17] <Ursinha> sure :)
[14:18] <henninge> so, what goes behind the colon (:) is not what you are trying to format, but *how*
[14:18] <henninge> let me look up what it's called again
[14:18] <Ursinha> henninge, I know that
[14:18] <Ursinha> :)
[14:19] <Ursinha> henninge, the point is what do I have to do for it to use the fmt:datetime
[14:19] <Ursinha> I couldn't find out what the other page does that I'm not doing
[14:19] <Ursinha> I'm getting a traversal error
[14:19] <henninge> Ursinha: sorry, I just saw that there is actually a formatter called datetime, didn't know that
[14:19] <Ursinha> :)
[14:20] <henninge> Ursinha: show me the code
[14:20] <henninge> ;)
[14:20] <Ursinha> henninge, sorry, sometimes I assume that you guys are translations code gods and know everything about it
[14:20] <Ursinha> henninge, let me try something else here, a moment, please :)
[14:20] <henninge> I have actually found out how to use a formatter from python and found that pretty cool
[14:20] <henninge> ;-)
[14:21] <Ursinha> henninge, mind to explain? :)
[14:21] <henninge> I am just saying that I am exploring these things myself in varying depths
[14:24] <Ursinha> henninge, oh, I see :)
[14:26] <Ursinha> henninge, I think I found out the problem
[14:26] <Ursinha> I have to have a Datetime object for it to let me use the formatter
[14:27] <Ursinha> I may be wrong, but so far is my best guess
[14:27] <henninge> Ursinha: I am pretty sure you need a Datetime object!
[14:27] <henninge> ;-)
[14:27] <henninge> Ursinha: what were you trying to use the formatter on?
[14:28] <Ursinha> henninge, in what I thought that was a Datetime object, but realize it's not :)
[14:28] <henninge> ah
[14:28] <Ursinha> realizeD
[14:28] <henninge> Ursinha: that's excusable ;-)
[14:28] <Ursinha> henninge, hehe :)
[14:28] <henninge> sinzui: ping
[14:29] <sinzui> hi henninge
[14:29] <henninge> hi sinzui
[14:29] <henninge> sinzui: I am trying to triage bug 462891
[14:29] <mup> Bug #462891: TraversalError on +export <oops> <Launchpad Translations:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/462891>
[14:29] <henninge> sinzui: the oops happens when trying to access user/preferredemail/email
[14:30] <sinzui> it is not visible
[14:30] <sinzui> the app genuinely does not have permission to see it
[14:30] <henninge> sinzui: does that happen when the user hides his/her email address?
[14:31] <henninge> sinzui: although I tried that and it did not reproduce
[14:32] <sinzui> henninge: Yes. In many mail/login usage, we use something link removeSecurityProxy(user.preferredemail).email
[14:32] <sinzui> henninge: in this tales example. we simply do not have permission to show it. we should not
[14:33] <henninge> sinzui: ok
[14:33] <henninge> sinzui: is there an easy way to check in tales if we have that permission of not?
[14:33] <sinzui> |nothing helps
[14:34] <sinzui> it swallows exceptions
[14:34] <henninge> sinzui: good idea, thanks
[14:37] <sinzui> henninge: in tales you might also do
[14:37] <sinzui>           <tal:visible-email
[14:37] <sinzui>             condition="context/owner/preferredemail/required:launchpad.View">
[14:37] <sinzui>             (<span tal:replace="context/owner/preferredemail/email" />)
[14:37] <sinzui>           </tal:visible-email>
[14:37] <henninge> sinzui: cool, thanks
[14:43] <Ursinha> henninge, so, I think I'm missing something
[14:43] <Ursinha> it seems the thing I'm returning is a datetime object
[14:43]  * Ursinha just thought about make harness
[14:43] <Ursinha> anyway, it seems the object is correct
[14:43] <Ursinha> but I may be missing defining the property somewhere
[14:45] <Ursinha> henninge, are you dying busy? :)
[14:46] <henninge> Ursinha: sorry. Still trying to triage (reproduce) that traversal error
[14:47] <henninge> Ursinha: define which property?
[14:47] <Ursinha> the lastChangedDate that I want to add in that page
[14:48] <henninge> Ursinha: can you push the branch and let me have a look at it?
[14:48] <Ursinha> henninge, sure, but it's a mess, just a warning :)
[14:49]  * henninge is used to messes
[14:52] <BjornT_> mars, gary_poster: can any of you take a look at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~bjornt/lazr-js/download-cache/+merge/14220? it's a quick fix, so that people won't have to know how to set up a download-cache
[14:53] <gary_poster> BjornT_: on call, will check back
[14:53] <mars> BjornT_, on a call for a bit
[14:53] <mars> :)
[14:54] <henninge> Ursinha: I cannot set the bug 462891 to triaged or set its importance. I have insufficient permissions for that.
[14:54] <mup> Bug #462891: TraversalError on +export <oops> <Launchpad Translations:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/462891>
[14:55] <henninge> Ursinha: ???
[14:55] <Ursinha> henninge, how come?
[14:55] <henninge> dunno
[14:55] <henninge> The following errors were encountered:
[14:55] <henninge>     * Only Bug Supervisors may change status to Triaged.
[14:55] <Ursinha> henninge, try again
[14:55] <sinzui> henninge: are you logged in
[14:55] <Ursinha> eh eh
[14:55] <henninge> sinzui: oh, I was fooled
[14:56] <henninge> Ursinha: ^
[14:56] <Ursinha> there should be something showing you're not logged in
[14:56] <Ursinha> like a different color
[14:56] <Ursinha> don't know
[14:56] <Ursinha> henninge, was that the problem?
[14:56] <henninge> I logged myself out in another tab
[14:56] <henninge> but the bug page still looked like I was logged in ...
[14:57] <Ursinha> henninge, oops :)
[14:58] <Ursinha> henninge, happens to me sometimes, and my brain always fail to realize that could be this simple before panicking
[14:58] <Ursinha> henninge, btw, thanks for triaging that bug
[14:58] <henninge> Ursinha: np
[15:03] <henninge> Ursinha: btw, where those the only two occurances of that particular OOPS? I have not been able to reproduce the bug and it would be interesting to know how often it occurs.
[15:03] <henninge> s/where/were/
[15:03] <Ursinha> henninge, we had about 40 a day since I've reported the bug
[15:03] <henninge> oh!
[15:05] <Ursinha> henninge, see here: https://devpad.canonical.com/~lpqateam/oops-summaries/lpnet-2009-10-29.html#exceptions
[15:05] <Ursinha> for example
[15:15] <henninge> Ursinha: oops.py should display the *account* name (which is unique), not the display name, which may appear gazillion times
[15:15] <henninge> Ursinha: who maintains oops.py?
[15:16] <Ursinha> henninge, matsubara-afk does
[15:16] <henninge> Ursinha: is there a branch somewhere?
[15:16] <Ursinha> henninge, yes, a moment, please
[15:30] <mars> beuno, on a merge proposal, why is there a [Review] link and a [Claim Review] button?
[15:30] <henninge> Ursinha: did you ever push that branch of yours?
[15:30] <Ursinha> henninge, pushing, pushing
[15:30] <Ursinha> :)
[15:30] <beuno> mars, I wish I had a nice answer to that
[15:30] <Ursinha> danilos is alive, I'll rip him them :P
[15:31] <Ursinha> thanks henninge :)
[15:32] <henninge> Ursinha: oh, that would be nice. I have guests tonight and wanted to cut it short. Is that ok with you?
[15:33] <Ursinha> henninge, if it's fine with danilos than it's fine by me
[15:33] <Ursinha> :)
[15:34] <henninge> Ursinha: Oh, I thought you were already talking to him
[15:34] <danilos> henninge, she was, I'll be happy to take on bug 462891 (we should always show that address, so removeSecurityProxy should do)
[15:34] <mup> Bug #462891: TraversalError on +export <oops> <Launchpad Translations:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/462891>
[15:35] <danilos> henninge, however, I am worried that this might happen when there's no preferred email as well
[15:35] <henninge> danilos: I was not even trying to fix it, just to reproduce it
[15:36] <danilos> henninge, as you can see, we are trying to traverse into None.email, so that's probably why it happens
[15:37] <henninge> danilos, Ursinha: actually, I thought we were still talking about Ursinha's fmt:datetime problem ...
[15:38] <danilos> henninge, heh, I am not sure about what we are talking about now :)
[15:49] <Ursinha> danilos, I was asking henninge's help because I thought you weren't there, but about the bug I'm fixing, not the bug henninge is
[15:49] <Ursinha> :)
[15:49] <henninge> I am a bug?
[15:50] <danilos> henninge, no, you just look like one
[15:54] <rockstar> abentley, hi
[15:54] <abentley> rockstar: Hi.
[15:55] <rockstar> abentley, so, I'm trying to compare to jobs, using your implementation of __eq__ and it's complaining that context is a ForbiddenAttribute - is that by design?
[15:56] <abentley> rockstar: No.
[15:56] <rockstar> abentley, so it's okay that I add it to the interface to be accessible?
[15:57] <abentley> rockstar: Doesn't forbidden mean it's not even on the underlying model object?
[15:57] <rockstar> abentley, I don't think so.
[15:58] <abentley> rockstar: I thought it was unauthorized if you don't have permission, forbidden if it doesn't exist.
[15:58]  * rockstar checks
[15:59] <rockstar> abentley, no, if if rSP an object, context is there.  In fact, the context should always be there in this case, since the context is the BranchJob
[16:00] <danilos> sinzui, salgado-lunch, hey, just to confirm one thing: we can have logged in users into Launchpad with no preferred email set or no? (re bug 462891)
[16:00] <mup> Bug #462891: TraversalError on +export <oops> <Launchpad Translations:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/462891>
[16:00] <abentley> What is rSP?
[16:00] <danilos> abentley, removeSecurityProxy?
[16:00] <sinzui> danilos: I do not think that is possible.
[16:00] <abentley> Okay, so expose it on the API.
[16:01] <sinzui> danilos: I spoke to henninge about that
[16:01] <rockstar> abentley, great, thanks.
[16:01] <sinzui> danilos: User can set the email address to be hidden and we honour it
[16:01] <danilos> sinzui, I know you did, but the thing is that we try to show email only to users themselves, and we should have privileges to do it
[16:02] <danilos> sinzui, this page is rendered when user is requesting a download, and we display email address so they know where they'll get an email when the export is ready for download
[16:02] <sinzui> danilos: have you tried the proven tales fraement to access a hidden email address
[16:02] <danilos> sinzui, however, the traversal error tries to get email property on None, meaning that preferredemail is None, and not inaccessible
[16:03] <sinzui> danilos: hmm
[16:03] <danilos> sinzui, at least that's how I read it, maybe I need to look into preferredemail implementation
[16:03] <sinzui> danilos: I still state that the login server should never let a user login without a preferred email address. I do not think anyone can login without creating a profile, and that step ensures a preferred email address.
[16:04] <sinzui> danilos: do we know the user?
[16:04] <danilos> sinzui, we've had a few bugs with person/account split; this is happening with more than one user, and we haven't seen this ever before
[16:06] <sinzui> I see the user just came from login
[16:06] <sinzui> I cannot believe we let that launchpad id exist
[16:08] <danilos> sinzui, yeah, that was exactly my opinion when I saw the exclamation mark in the user ID, but that might be part of the displayname
[16:09] <sinzui> danilos: i think we need to query the person table of staging to see if this a real user. I hope that id is person, not account
[16:12] <sinzui> danilos: He has an email address https://edge.launchpad.net/~iqt
[16:13] <danilos> sinzui, yeah, so I guess you were right about preferred email being returned as None when it's hidden (though, shouldn't it be hidden from us as well?)
[16:14] <sinzui> danilos: You are special. You are a registry admin
[16:15] <sinzui> danilos: That means your related software report is 100% crack
[16:15] <danilos> sinzui, however, I see no person for this account
[16:15] <danilos> sinzui, heh, right :)
[16:15] <sinzui> danilos: This page does not who accounts. only person
[16:15] <danilos> sinzui, I am looking at staging DB
[16:16] <sinzui> danilos: there is only one page that can show an account and only a LOSA can see it
[16:16] <sinzui> danilos: the account was created on the 27. maybe staging is old
[16:16] <danilos> sinzui, staging DB seems outdated though
[16:16] <danilos> sinzui, yep
[16:30] <danilos> sinzui, just fyi, looking at the code, preferredemail has no restrictions by whether an address is hidden or not; and, all of these seem to have just logged in before that, and the account was created just a few minutes ago; I am guessing that launchpad_auth_master has some data that launchpad_main_master still doesn't
[16:35] <henninge> danilos, Ursinha: Enjoy the weekend, I am off now!
[16:35] <sinzui> danilos: thank makes sense. We had a number is similar oopses a few months ago where there as a 20 minute lag
[16:35] <Ursinha> bye henninge :) you too
[16:35] <henninge> danilos: you'd better get all well!
[16:37] <danilos> henninge, cheers
[17:02] <sinzui> Chex: ping
[17:03] <Chex> sinzui: hello there
[17:04] <sinzui> Chex: I want to test the product-release-finder on staging, but it just occurred to me that I do not know if the fix was pushed there this week
[17:05] <Chex> sinzui: ok, was this a cowboy fix, or a revno release
[17:05] <Chex> ?
[17:05]  * sinzui loks for revno
[17:07] <sinzui> no it did not arrive
[17:08] <sinzui> Chex: do you know what is blocking staging from a code update?
[17:08] <BjornT_> danilos: still there?
[17:11] <BjornT_> danilos: those windmill errors are strange, i don't know what are causing them. you can merge lp:~bjornt/launchpad/bug-430702 to work around them
[17:12] <Chex> sinzui: I am not sure, let me check
[17:14] <danilos> BjornT_, ok, thanks
[17:15] <danilos> BjornT_, also, thanks for looking into this, very much appreciated
[17:31] <rockstar> abentley, what would it take to teach the scanner about bzr pipelines and the next and prev pipes?
[17:31] <rockstar> abentley, (in the context of setting pre-req branches)
[17:31] <abentley> rockstar: A database patch.
[17:32] <abentley> rockstar: Why do you ask?
[17:33] <sinzui> Chex: I think I am confused by the version of code on staging. I verified that other expected features were on staging, so...can you run cronscripts/product-release-finder.py on staging and paste/send the output?
[17:34] <Chex> sinzui: jinx. I just finally verified that staging should be up-to-date within the past 24 hours or less
[17:34] <Chex> sinzui: sure
[17:34] <sinzui> fab
[17:36] <rockstar> abentley, just curious, really.  I figure if we're bringing back prereq branches, it'd be really cool to teach the scanner about pipes soon after.
[17:36] <abentley> rockstar: My plan is to teach pipelines about prereq branches first.
[17:37] <rockstar> abentley, I aliased push to sync-pipeline for this very purpose a few weeks ago.
[17:37] <rockstar> abentley, wait, that confuses me.  Pipelines knows which branch came before.
[17:37] <abentley> Right, but right now, they can't propose a branch for merging.
[17:38] <rockstar> abentley, ah, okay.  Yeah, we've talked about that.
[17:38] <jml> leonardr, is the patch you just posted something of a pre-cursor to a trusted gtk workflow?
[17:38] <abentley> So first pipelines is getting launchpad support.  Launchpad might get pipelines support later.
[17:39] <leonardr> jml: yes, i spent this week landing the branch i mentioned to you a while ago
[17:39] <jml> leonardr, cool.
[17:39] <leonardr> i am supposed to talk to rickspencer3 about porting his gtk workflow to this engine but i can't find him. maybe he took the day off now that karmic is released
[17:39] <rockstar> abentley, okay.  I've wanted to do something to the codehosting part of code, and mwhudson fixed the bug I was thinking I'd do, so I thought maybe I'd teach the scanner about pipelines.
[17:39] <rockstar> abentley, just a thought in passing more than anything though.
[17:41] <jml> leonardr, he's travelling back home
[17:41] <leonardr> ah
[17:41] <leonardr> i guess i'll talk to him on monday then
[17:41] <abentley> rockstar: Well, the hardest part is getting a database patch through review.  After that, we can implement direct support for next_branch and prev_branch, or we can add the pipelines plugin to the codebase.
[17:41] <jml> leonardr, trusted client for gtk would be very exciting.
[17:48] <Chex> sinzui: ok, the script stopped output about 15 mins ago, should I kill it?
[17:48] <sinzui> know. I think this can take some time since I expect it to be finding a lot of new downloads
[17:49] <sinzui> s/know/no/
[17:49] <sinzui> Chex: is it stuck on a specific url?
[17:51] <Chex> sinzui: yes : 2009-10-30 17:39:03 INFO    Walking http://ftp.drupal.org
[17:51] <Chex> 2009-10-30 17:39:03 INFO    Listing /files/projects/
[17:52] <sinzui> that is big
[17:53] <sinzui> Chex: Let this run. if this has not moved on in 30 minutes, I think we should kill it and restart
[18:02] <intellectronica> have a lovely weekend and a great week four, everyone. see you in texas
[18:04] <Chex> sinzui: oki doki.. still sitting there as of now.
[18:04] <sinzui> :/
[18:07] <mrevell> Night all. have great weekends!
[18:16] <danilos> salgado, hi, do you know how closely are launchpad_auth_master and launchpad_main_master synced? are they the same DB or not?
[18:17] <salgado> danilos, don't know
[18:17] <danilos> salgado, but just to confirm, user/preferredemail should always be not None when accessed from code, right?
[18:18] <salgado> if you mean LaunchBag.user, then yes
[18:54] <flacoste> man, this django test runner sucks
[19:14] <flacoste> gary_poster, barry: oopstools is testing a script using sys.executable
[19:14] <flacoste> i'm buildoutifying the package, so that doesn't work
[19:14] <flacoste> what is the best thing to do here
[19:14] <flacoste> test through bin/the_buildoutified_script
[19:15] <flacoste> or through bin/py
[19:15] <flacoste> and what is the best way to get the path to bin/... from the test?
[19:16] <barry> flacoste: bin/py bin/the_script probably.  iirc, we do something similar for mailman.  to get to bin i think we os.path.dirname from canonical.__file__
[19:16] <gary_poster> flacoste: I prefer bin/the_buildoutified_script in general.  relying on bin/py is a bit of a hack in my mind, TBH.  It was convenient for us, but from scratch, it it is easy enough, I'd do the script.
[19:16] <flacoste> gary_poster: i agree and that's what i started aiming for
[19:17] <flacoste> now, what is the best way to get the path to bin?
[19:17] <flacoste> should I assume tests are run from the buildout top-level directory
[19:17] <flacoste> ?
[19:17] <barry> gary_poster: did we use bin/py somescript because we would have had to hack mailman?
[19:17] <flacoste> or should I use ../../../ from my test directory using the dirname(__file__) trick?
[19:18] <barry> we really should have a utility that gives us the root of our tree, from which we can easily calculate bin or whatever
[19:18] <gary_poster> flacoste: If you are working with something that has access to buildout variables, then you can use things like ${buildout:bin-directory} (IIRC; I would look for variables on buildout PyPI page)
[19:18] <flacoste> gary_poster: that's just a regular doctest, so I don't think that's the case
[19:19] <flacoste> unless we put those into a module
[19:19] <gary_poster> flacoste: the z3c.recipe.filetemplate will let you do that.  Alternately, if you are doing a script, you can have code inserted (see how we do it in launchpad's buildout.cfg)
[19:19] <flacoste> this is a django app
[19:19] <flacoste> so it needs a settings file
[19:20] <flacoste> which can contain a couple of global stuff
[19:20] <flacoste> i think i'm going to generate that file using z3c.recipe.filetemplate
[19:20] <gary_poster> you could generate that, sure.  I was talking about this: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.egg#specifying-initialialization-code-and-arguments
[19:20] <flacoste> and put a couple of well-known directory there
[19:20] <gary_poster> that would work too, yeah
[19:20] <flacoste> well, not really
[19:20] <flacoste> because what i want is to find the bin path from the script
[19:20] <flacoste> err, the test
[19:21] <gary_poster> well, you could stuff info in someplace, like environ.
[19:21] <flacoste> ah, you mean in the test wrapper for example
[19:21] <flacoste> but that one is generated through djangorecipe
[19:21] <flacoste> and it's a crappy test runner wrapper anyway
[19:22] <gary_poster> :-) ok
[19:22] <gary_poster> barry: "did we use bin/py somescript because we would have had to hack mailman?" yes, and because there was already precedent
[19:23] <barry> gary_poster: cool
[19:24] <flacoste> man, djangorecipe, what a "!&/)!*"
[19:24] <flacoste> it doesn't put Django into the eggs
[19:24] <flacoste> and it doesn't install django as an egg, but into build/parts
[19:25] <flacoste> which means that scripts generated don't have it in their path
[19:25] <flacoste> pff
[19:25] <flacoste> extra_path to the rescue...
[19:34] <flacoste> gary_poster: any idea why extra-paths isn't adding stuff to the generated script?
[19:34] <flacoste> gary_poster: i think i know why
[19:36] <gary_poster> flacoste: no.  It should.  (though, btw, on a a probably unreleated topic, I suggest that you do one of these three: (1) use a clean Python, (2) use a virtualenv clean Python (--no-site-packages), or (3) somehow use my zc.buildout and zc.recipe.egg and z3c.recipe.filetemplate internal releases.
[19:36] <gary_poster> )
[19:37] <flacoste> gary_poster: it was a confusion on my part
[19:37] <flacoste> gary_poster: i had commented out the scripts stanza from the buildout parts
[19:37] <flacoste> gary_poster: but the script was still generated through the interpreter section
[19:37] <gary_poster> oic
[19:37] <flacoste> gary_poster: which didn't have the extra-paths config
[19:37] <gary_poster> you can combine the two fwiw
[19:37] <flacoste> it's weird though that the interpreter section generates script
[19:37] <flacoste> yeah
[19:37] <flacoste> exactly
[19:41] <flacoste> yeah! all tests are now passing!
[19:41] <gary_poster> awesome :-)
[19:57] <barry> sinzui: ping
[20:06] <sinzui>  hi barry
[20:07] <barry> sinzui: hi.  open up lib/canonical/launchpad/icing/style-3.0.css and search for registered
[20:08] <sinzui> ouch
[20:08] <barry> :)
[20:09] <sinzui> so we still have a problem in that italics is wrong
[20:09] <barry> sinzui: maybe it should have been "registering"?
[20:09] <sinzui> oh, I see, it is correct when in an li
[20:09] <sinzui> so the portlet is not putting the person's join time in an li
[20:10] <barry> sinzui: maybe.  but if you look at https://launchpad.dev/firefox you'll see that the registration date is class="registering"
[20:11] <barry> should would be nice if we had some more comments in our css :/
[20:11] <sinzui> We certainly do no want to float the secondary information to the link
[20:11] <sinzui> no, it would be nice if we took the time to rename our classes when we broaden their use
[20:11] <sinzui> comments are needed when you write too many specific rules
[20:11] <barry> well, perhaps, but the color and font-size seem more in line with registered
[20:12] <sinzui> I want the text to look like other portlets. We have a markup/style problem because when that is next to other portlets it is clearly wrong. There is nothing special about it
[20:13] <barry> the problem is that you really have no idea what ".registered" is used for, so you can't safely change it, so that leads to more fragmentation as you add more classes
[20:13] <sinzui> barry: look at https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry
[20:14] <sinzui> The grey normal text is what the user expects to see, he does not care how we do it. So when I saw italics, I knew something was wrong, my guess was certainly wrong about the cause
[20:14] <sinzui> barry: can you spot the defect in this page by BTW?
[20:15] <barry> sinzui: so, i agree that the italics is wrong, but /we/ definitely care how we fix it.  not much to say at the end of the cycle, but style-3.0.css is going to end up a mess this way
[20:16] <sinzui> We can start cleaning it up by removing the old stylesheet rules
[20:16] <barry> i don't understand why we have .registered and li . registered
[20:17] <sinzui> one is italics and the other is not. The italics rule is from the contracted design. kiko later wanted italics removed, this one was not
[20:18] <sinzui> .registering first used under the object's title. The design changed a lot in the 3.0 milestone.
[20:18] <barry> sinzui: so, why wasn't font-style: italic; removed from .registered?
[20:18] <kiko> ITALICS!!!
[20:19] <sinzui> barry: dude get a grip. do I have to make you read the 3.0, and the post cleanup list?
[20:19] <sinzui> barry: I'll be happy if you can triple your landings each month, but I do not want to break anyones spirt
[20:20] <barry> sinzui: i am chilled out!  i'm trying to make sense of stuff in our tree that makes no sense
[20:20] <sinzui> barry: label it tech-debt so that it makes the list of things we schedule work on.
[20:21] <sinzui> except that we are not really scheduling tech-debt
[20:21] <barry> sinzui: but we /are/ cleaning up ui, right?
[20:21] <sinzui> yes, after oops
[20:23] <sinzui> barry: our team closed about 20 ui issues this release, but we are a smaller team now, we still own 1/3 of all templates, and we are still expected to own blueprint and answers templates. The latter two completely missed their milestones
[20:23] <barry> sinzui: cool.  this is definitely ui uncleanliness, but we need to avoid chaos too, or it's hopeless ;)
[20:23] <sinzui> barry: We will never look as good as the other teams given that we cannot put enough people onto the issues
[20:40] <flacoste> gary_poster: is there a list of buildout variables?
[20:43] <gary_poster> flacoste: yes, in docs plus there is a command to see the defaults.  Looking...
[20:43] <flacoste> gary_poster: i don't find it from the pypi page
[20:45] <gary_poster> flacoste: not sure what you are looking for, but bin/buildout annotate will list default values
[20:45] <flacoste> ok, thanks
[20:45] <gary_poster> flacoste: also, http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.buildout#predefined-buildout-options
[20:48] <Chex> sinzui: just a update, your script is still running, and creating output now
[20:49] <sinzui> Chex: fab. I fixed a loop issue that prevented the script for download all the tarballs. I have a list of things I can check tonight if the script does not complete soon
[20:50] <Chex> sinzui: ok, sounds good, just because us losas will be rolling up the sidewalk soon, wanted to see if you needed us to check status
[21:25] <wgrant> How do week 4 landings work? I'll probably be wanting to land some new Soyuz enum values to make something easier to CP during 3.1.12 if Debian forces us to.
[21:27] <lifeless> get RC approval
[21:27] <lifeless> AIUI
[21:48] <wgrant> sinzui: Can bug #464014 no make 3.1.10?
[21:48] <mup> Bug #464014: DistributionSourcePackageView.active_series sorts versions as strings <Launchpad Registry:Triaged by edwin-grubbs> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/464014>
[21:49] <wgrant> sinzui: It is going to become a problem very soon, and seems like an easy fix.
[21:49] <sinzui> wgrant: no, we are lock down in a few minutes, the EC2 run time is 4 hours so once we crossed the threshold I push all the bugs back
[21:50] <sinzui> wgrant: I am working in DSP's now and I feel the pain
[21:50] <sinzui> Maybe I can convince someone that this is an RC able issue
[21:51] <sinzui> wgrant: we will work have a branch ready next week, but I do not want to promise that it will be released
[21:51] <wgrant> sinzui: cjwatson filed a dupe overnight.
[21:51] <wgrant> Thanks.
[21:51] <sinzui> wgrant: I think the fix is to use sorted_dotted_numbers
[21:52] <sinzui> I assumed that was what we used to show the DSP
[21:52] <wgrant> sinzui: Isn't the DS version a debversion?
[21:53] <sinzui> either will do. We have be using the other because it handles cases of letters
[21:53] <sinzui> not that LTS will ever appear in a version
[21:53]  * wgrant checks how Distribution:+index does it.
[21:54] <wgrant>         return sorted(ret, key=lambda a: Version(a.version), reverse=True)
[21:54] <sinzui> Doom to fail
[21:54] <wgrant> Why?
[21:54] <sinzui> Doomed to fail
[21:55] <sinzui> version is not a number
[21:56] <wgrant> How does that matter?
[21:56] <wgrant> debversion uses Debian ordering rules, which care about a lot more than just numbers.
[21:56] <sinzui> sort is follows string rules, so 10 and 1 are much different
[21:57] <sinzui> right, and debversion has a lot a tested/proven behaviour
[21:57] <wgrant> Why would sort be using string rules on a Version object with a __cmp__?
[21:58] <sinzui> The release/version is in point of fact a debversion, though the DB thinks it is something more loosely defined
[21:59] <sinzui> Version is not an object
[21:59] <wgrant> It is.
[21:59] <wgrant> lp.archivepublisher.debversion.Version
[22:00] <sinzui> I am mistaken then. In know the DB does not know that.
[22:00] <wgrant> Right. The DB just enforces sane_version, which is something different. I wonder if the interface enforces debversion.
[22:01] <sinzui> The IField does
[22:01] <wgrant> Great.
[22:01] <wgrant> Does Registry have sufficient engineering time this cycle to make that trivial change with a test?
[22:02] <sinzui> I think so
[23:36] <Ursinha> ahem.
[23:36] <Ursinha> I hate writing tests.