[12:01] <Kamion> phew, debian-installer merge done
[12:03] <fabbione> jbailey: are you back ?
[12:03] <Kamion> modutils?
[12:03] <lamont> yep.
[12:04] <Kamion> that's rather incompetent
[12:04] <lamont> there's a 2.4.27.orig.tar.gz in experimental
[12:04] <lamont> so, I'll be uploading <IP_ADDRESS>-1
[12:04] <mxpxpod> how would I install a package's config file (in /etc) over what I have there?
[12:04] <lamont> and nuking all his changes
[12:04] <Kamion> yay for jfs
[12:04] <Kamion> are none of his changes worthwhile? surely not
[12:04] <Amaranth> hmm
[12:05] <lamont> Kamion: don't care at this immediate instant...  I'll walk the bug tree and see what I can incorporate after I make my upload-statement
[12:05] <Amaranth> i'm using breezy and i have a new package :)
[12:05] <Kamion> in fairness, you hadn't uploaded since 2003 :)
[12:06] <lamont> Kamion: yeah, but it's always good to check with the maintainer before uploading a new .orig.tar.gz...
[12:06] <lamont> esp if it doesn't match what's on the upstream distro site...
[12:06] <lamont> OTOH, he didn't add an epoch.. :-)(
[12:06] <mkde> Amaranth, breezy is open for testing?
[12:07] <lamont> mkde: it'll take uploads, and sometime soon, it'll actually build binaries from them.
[12:07] <mkde> k
[12:07] <Amaranth> oh, that's why linux-kernel-headers went through
[12:07] <Amaranth> it's just source
[12:07] <tseng> erm
[12:07] <Kamion> Amaranth: no
[12:08] <lamont> Amaranth: no. it went through because I got out and pushed
[12:08] <mkde> Amaranth, is your menu editor in universe?
[12:08] <tseng> any package has to do an unpack + build
[12:08] <Amaranth> mkde: no
[12:08] <mkde> Amaranth, what is it like?
[12:08] <lamont> Amaranth: we're bootstrapping gcc-4.0 into the toolchain for breezy before we actually start building everything.
[12:08] <mkde> did you get anywhere with it?
[12:08] <Amaranth> mkde: Yeah, I got to bugs in PyXDG (fixed in CVS) and gnome-menus.
[12:08] <lamont> and lkh, doxygen, and gcc-4.0 are the first 3 packages in that process (gcc-4.0 is building now)
[12:09] <mkde> Amaranth, i might download it, would you recommend?
[12:09] <lamont> doko: you going to upload a new gcc-4.0 to fix amd64?
[12:09] <fabbione> lamont: i guess i could build doxygen at least :)
[12:09] <lamont> fabbione: sure
[12:09] <Amaranth> mkde: It's better than doing it by hand.
[12:10] <mkde> Amaranth, are you going to carry on working on it or was it just temporary?
[12:10] <mkde> hi fgx :)
[12:10] <Amaranth> mkde: I'm trying to figured out a workaround to these bugs, then I'll have a new version out.
[12:10] <mkde> cool
[12:10] <Amaranth> mkde: More than likely it'll be a breezy-only app though.
[12:10] <fabbione> lamont: doxygen_1.4.2-1 ?
[12:10] <lamont> fabbione: on the bright side, my mirror script isn't being burdened by binaries as it fetches breezy source...
[12:10] <lamont> fabbione: yes
[12:10] <mkde> Amaranth, :/
[12:11] <mkde> Amaranth, cool work tho
[12:11] <mkde> glad you're carrying it on
[12:11] <fabbione> lamont: ehhee.. i had to add another 10G to the ubuntu mirror
[12:12] <lamont> I really need to bite the bullet and finish setting up the new server, which has a 73GB partition just for the mirror
[12:12] <fgx> ciao mkde
[12:12] <Kamion> /dev/system/mirrors   53670396  50566048   2013832  97% /mirror
[12:13] <fabbione> Kamion: eheh
[12:14] <fabbione> Kamion: but you do a selective mirror, don't you?
[12:15] <fabbione> i have around 100GB allocated for mirrors
[12:15] <fabbione> and they are all almost full
[12:17] <fabbione> Alloc PE / Size       112903 / 441.03 GB
[12:17] <fabbione> Free  PE / Size       44464 / 173.69 GB
[12:17] <fabbione> and i managed to free 170GB recently
[12:17] <doko>  lamont: works for me
[12:17] <fabbione> from a lot of old craft
[12:18] <lamont> doko: I really love this reproducible stuff in gcc, you know...
[12:18] <lamont> giving back, just for giggles
[12:19] <doko> hmm, do we have build options to disabled parallel builds? I usually build on single processor machines ...
[12:19] <gasman> Hi all I am trying to repackage my kernel and I was wondering if anyone had a seconed to give me some help
[12:19] <lamont> doko: nothing is done to prevent parallel builds
[12:19] <lamont> doko: 2-way opteron 2465
[12:19] <lamont> 246, even
[12:20] <gasman> or if there is a more appropriate irc channel to ask in please tell me
[12:20] <mkde> gasman, did you try #ubuntu?
[12:20] <doko> let me know, if it fails again, then I have to make another upload with parallel make disabled
[12:20] <gasman> mkde: no...i guess I'll try there
[12:25] <fabbione> night
[12:26] <lamont> Kamion: truth be told, I'm half tempted to orphan modutils (after making sure that module-init-tools doesn't use anything in it...)
[12:28] <lamont> dpkg-divert --list | grep module-init-tools | wc -l
[12:29] <lamont> 29
[12:29] <lamont> now that's a man after my heart...
[12:30] <Kamion> fabbione: that's Debian sarge+sid x i386+powerpc, Ubuntu warty+hoary x amd64+i386+powerpc
[12:31] <zyga> night everyone
[12:31] <Kamion> gasman: it's usually more effective to ask your question straight out; people tend to be reluctant to say they'll help when they don't know what they're getting themselves into, sometimes :)
[12:34] <Kamion> I think it's generally right for packages to deliver their own man page translations; the collected sets tend to get out of date easily
[12:34] <lamont> Kamion: yeah
[12:34] <mkde> would anyone have the patience to explain to a fool how a subversion commit is done?
[12:34] <gasman> Kamion: ok.  well I am running dpkg-buildpackage I get the following error:  debian/rules:29: *** first argument to`word' function must be greater than."
[12:34] <mkde> <-- aforementioned fool
[12:35] <Kamion> mdke: 'svn ci'
[12:35] <Kamion> or 'svn commit'
[12:35] <mkde> Kamion, that just returns me to the prompt with no message
[12:35] <mkde> :/
[12:35] <Kamion> mkde: that implies you have no committable changes; try 'svn status'
[12:35] <mkde> ?      gnome/images/fr
[12:35] <mkde> ?      gnome/images/de
[12:35] <mkde> ?      gnome/images/it
[12:36] <mkde> i added some files too but they don't show up
[12:36] <Kamion> mkde: if you have new files, you need to 'svn add' them explicitly
[12:36] <mkde> doh
[12:36] <mkde> directories too huh?
[12:36] <Kamion> mkde: yes
[12:37] <mkde> Kamion, thanks very much, i appreciate it a lot
[12:37] <Kamion> gasman: my instinct would be that debian/changelog is wrong; but I need to go to bed now, sorry
[12:38] <mkde> Kamion, good night, and thanks, is working now
[12:38] <gasman> Kamion: thanks
[12:41] <gasman> Kamion: you were right, it was my changelog.  I had a bad version num
[01:03] <doko> lamont: how's gcc-4.0 running?
[01:10] <jdub> fabbione: pong
[01:12] <lamont> doko: on the order of 2 more hours before we expect success
[01:13] <jdub> elmo: ping?
[01:13] <doko> lamont: so it's already building the runtime libs?
[01:13] <lamont> doko: uh... let me go check...
[01:14] <lamont> doko: ppc is at: Running /build/buildd/gcc-4.0-4.0ds11/src/gcc/testsuite/gcc.c-torture/execute/execute.exp ...
[01:14] <lamont> the others are in acats tests
[01:15] <doko> even amd64?
[01:31] <elmo> jdub: ?
[01:34] <jdub> elmo: howdy
[01:34] <jdub> elmo: is katie sending out sync emails for universe as well as main?
[01:35] <elmo> yeah
[01:35] <jdub> aha
[01:35] <jdub> intended, or...?
[01:35] <elmo> uh, not sure.  there was discussions about what the right thing to do was, but I'm not sure what the conclusion (if any) was
[01:36] <jdub> in mataro, the conclusion was main only
[01:36] <jdub> for syncs
[01:36] <elmo> hmm, ok
[01:36] <jdub> ooh, yikes, breezy mirror action
[01:36] <mdz> I think the consensus was they should be sent to separate lists, to keep main manageable
[01:36] <mdz> but it's going to be insane for the initial run regardless
[01:36] <jdub> mdz: even universe uploads?
[01:36] <kiko> hey hey hey
[01:37] <kiko> is this where those ubuntu hotties hang out
[01:37] <elmo> hahahahahahaha
[01:37] <mdz> jdub: MOTU certainly want to know about universe syncs
[01:37] <elmo> oh, damn, that was just a clone
[01:37] <mdz> kiko: this is now the "bitch about bugzilla" channel
[01:37] <mdz> seb128: this is your chance :-)\
[01:37] <kiko> do it
[01:37] <jdub> hrm.. breezy-universe-changes or universe-changes...?
[01:37] <mdz> breezy-changes-universe
[01:37] <kiko> mdz, okay, can you give me an example bug that is friggin slow?
[01:37] <mdz> breezy-changes-all?
[01:38] <jdub> elmo: is this annoying to change, btw?
[01:38] <kiko> mdz, seb128, jdub: I'm proposing we turn on UNCONFIRMED for our bugzilla to avoid overflowing maintainers.
[01:38] <elmo> jdub: not particularly
[01:38] <kiko> what do you think?
[01:38] <mdz> kiko: I turned that on, btw
[01:38] <kiko> ah
[01:38] <kiko> let's see the graphs
[01:38] <jdub> yeah, i like the unconfirmed workflow
[01:38] <mdz> kiko: it seems to be a bit better now; maybe the server was more loaded earlier
[01:39] <kiko> seems friggin slow to me
[01:39] <mdz> kiko: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1940 takes ~5 seconds now
[01:39] <seb128> I thought we were not going to fix bugzilla ? :)
[01:39] <mdz> still slow, but not as horrifically slow as before
[01:39] <mdz> seb128: ssshh, don't tell malone
[01:39] <elmo> mdz: if we have b-c-a, would main go there too?
[01:39] <kiko> uhhh
[01:40] <mdz> elmo: that's what I was thinking, but I dunno, it's not urgent
[01:40] <kiko> how many components are in that little box?
[01:40] <mdz> elmo: we should probably talk about it in sydney or something
[01:40] <seb128> kiko: what about UNCONFIRMED ?
[01:40] <mdz> kiko: a few thousand
[01:41] <kiko> seb128, well, we now have enabled voting; essentially, bugs filed by people without editbugs go by default to the UNCONFIRMED state, and you need to vote (I believe mdz used two votes) or have somebody with editbugs confirm it.
[01:41] <mdz> kiko: 4637
[01:41] <mdz> (yes, 2 votes)
[01:41] <jdub> i think breezy-changes-universe would be saner than -all
[01:41] <mdz> four thousand six hundred thirty-seven components (for the ubuntu product)
[01:42] <kiko> jesus
[01:42] <mdz> elmo: is there a simple way to filter by component, based on the header/body of the mail?
[01:42] <seb128> kiko: what the interest for that ? A maintainer confirm or not the bug ... why do we need 2 votes ?
[01:42] <mdz> there's this ~1M javascript monstrosity which is part of every page
[01:42] <mdz> though in theory it should be cached
[01:42] <mdz> seb128: it is a way to allow us to ignore more bugs ;-)
[01:43] <elmo> mdz: not atm, no, can trivially add an X-Katie-Component: <foo> header tho
[01:43] <kiko> mdz, cached? how?
[01:43] <kiko> at least search.cgi is 500K
[01:43] <kiko> 20:43:31 (15.38 KB/s) - `query.cgi?format=advanced' saved [450,877]
[01:43] <kiko> sorry
[01:43] <kiko> query.cgi
[01:43] <mdz> kiko: <script type="text/javascript" language="JavaScript" src="data/compcache.js"></script>
[01:43] <seb128> mdz: UNCONFIRMED is, right :) But what about the votes ?
[01:44] <seb128> that moves it to NEW ?
[01:44] <mdz> seb128: right
[01:44] <seb128> but who has the bug assigned to him ?
[01:44] <mdz> no one, until it is confirmed
[01:44] <elmo> mdz: oh, well, alternatively, you could procmail on the "installed to pool/$component/" lines
[01:44] <mdz> kiko: the advanced search page is basically doomed
[01:44] <seb128> and when it's confirmed ? :)
[01:44] <jdub> "I really don't get the whole Ubuntu thing. It seems trendy and overrated, and I dislike having to tweak it in order to get what I consider a recognizable Linux filesystem, complete with su, etc."
[01:44] <jdub> heh
[01:44] <mdz> kiko: but at least on enter_bug and show_bug it's loading the monster component list via a separate URL
[01:44] <mako> ok. someone is emailing info because they had a failed submission to the hardware database
[01:45] <seb128> mdz: hu ? no one ... who gets the bug ?
[01:45] <mako> and they're attaching the mail
[01:45] <mdz> mako: that's awesome
[01:45] <mako> what should i do with it
[01:45] <mdz> seb128: the idea is that a bug has to wait until someone confirms it before we look at it
[01:45] <seb128> mdz: let's say somebody bugs on gnome-panel, the bug is assigned to me ?
[01:45] <kiko> mdz, so in query.cgi I could help you there with a small patch that required a product to be selected for a component to be displayed.
[01:45] <kiko> that would dramatically reduce page load size
[01:45] <seb128> mdz: I would be able to keep a look on the GNOME bugs without beeing flooded by the whole bugs
[01:45] <seb128> which is current situation if I look only on bugs assigned to me :)
[01:46] <mdz> kiko: I spend the vast majority of my time on show_bug (I read bug mail and click through), followed by buglist
[01:46] <kiko> okay.
[01:46] <kiko> mdz, well, just as a reminder, we could do that if improving the query,cgi perf is necessary
[01:46] <mdz> ok
[01:47] <mdz> seb128: our hope is that we can recruit people from the community (like the 100+ people in here *COUGH*) to help us confirm bugs
[01:47] <mdz> seb128: so they can look at the list of unconfirmed bugs and help us determine if they are true bugs or not
[01:47] <seb128> mdz: can we make some sections, list, whatever ?
[01:47] <seb128> like gnome-bugs, installer-bugs, kde-bugs, etc
[01:47] <mdz> seb128: we can query based on status
[01:47] <kiko> mdz, buglist should be pretty fast. is there an issue there?
[01:47] <jdub> gnome has some great bugzilla pages and reports for this stuff
[01:48] <seb128> so people can subscribe to a list of interest
[01:48] <mdz> kiko: ~6 seconds for a search on 'foo' here, so somewhat slower than show_bug
[01:48] <seb128> yeah, I want a weekly summary :p
[01:48] <seb128> like gnome :)
[01:48] <mdz> kiko: (including the query)
[01:48] <jdub> elijah will probably be happy to help out
[01:48] <kiko> mdz, what do you mean? including query.cgi?
[01:49] <mdz> kiko: I mean including the time to run the query (as opposed to returning to an existing list)
[01:49] <mdz> I'm not sure how that functionality works, but it seems to have different performance characteristics
[01:49] <kiko> mdz, returning to the list just loads bugs from your cookie.
[01:50] <mdz> kiko: right, so I mean the case where it isn't loading bugs from the cookie, and is instead running a query on the database to find the bugs
[01:50] <kiko> I see.
[01:50] <kiko> that's pretty bad.
[01:50] <kiko> on bmo (300K bugs) we get less than that usually
[01:51] <kiko> mdz, so compcache.js indeed is not getting cached.
[01:51] <kiko> let's see why.
[01:51] <mdz> how are we killing ourselves with ~3% of the bugs?
[01:51] <mdz> that would do it
[01:51] <mdz> sladen was looking at making that less broken
[01:52] <mdz> but everyone keeps telling me that this 'malone' thing is the future ;-)
[01:52] <kiko> mdz, I can't even convince the sab to include dependencies in malone, dude
[01:53] <mdz> I can live without dependencies, no problem
[01:53] <mdz> I cannot live with spending 10 minutes out of each hour waiting for bugzilla pages to load
[01:53] <kiko> Last-Modified: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:51:32 GMT
[01:53] <kiko> so explain to me
[01:53] <kiko> why is the server returning _that_ for the .js file?
[01:54] <mdz> riddle me this, Batman
[01:54] <kiko> it's just plain apache giving out a file, isn't it?
[01:54] <mdz> I don't have permission to look at the file
[01:54] <kiko> or is there some sort of bizarre occurence here?
[01:54] <mdz> thom: ?
[01:54] <kiko> who can?
[01:54] <mdz> thom
[01:54] <mdz> elmo
[01:54] <mdz> and justdave ;-)
[01:55] <kiko> mdz, just fixing _that_ problem would avoid show bug lagging more than 1s.
[01:55] <elmo> hmm?
[01:55] <mdz> elmo: can you give me privileges on the bugzilla instances on macquarie?
[01:56] <elmo> what kind of privs?
[01:56] <mdz> the best kind
[01:56] <kiko> mdz, next up, if query speed is hitting you and it's because of intense use, we can study using the shadow database.
[01:56] <mdz> read/write
[01:56] <kiko> mdz will take nothing but the best
[01:56] <mdz> kiko: load on that box is usually fairly reasonable, though I think ddaa abuses it sometimes
[01:57] <kiko> okay
[01:57] <kiko> tuning mysql a bit can help as well
[01:57] <mdz> it has these random 1.4G python interpreter instances running on it
[01:57] <kiko> but I'd need to be able to see the use profile and why queries are being slow (if they are)
[01:57] <elmo> maybe we should relocate bugzilla
[01:58] <infinity> Is the comonent javascript updated at regular intervals to make sure it's a complete list?
[01:58] <infinity> If so, one should update to a temp file, diff with the old one, and if they're the same, leave the old one intact.
[01:59] <kiko> infinity, I believe the current generation system is smart enough for that, but IMBW
[01:59] <kiko> mdz, what's mtime there?
[01:59] <infinity> OTOH, this could just be apache feeding you false modified headers due to SSL (mis)configuration.
[01:59] <infinity> Also, good morning.
[02:00] <jbailey> infinity: I was looking for you the other day for something, what was it...
[02:00] <kiko> could it, infinity?
[02:00] <jbailey> infinity: Oh, right.  Linker rework in glibc-2.3.5 - I think claims to fix some refcounting issues with dlopens.
[02:02] <lamont> jdub: that might mean something if we were building binaries...
[02:02] <infinity> jbailey : Probably does.  Actually, after examining CVS, I /think/ it should be fixed in 2.3.4 as well.  I think gotom's patch for Debian was just incomplete, but I've as yet not found enough "personal time" to fix it.
[02:02] <jdub> Downloaded 197 MiB in 1720s at 116.74 kiB/s
[02:03] <jdub> ^ i just synced my mirror
[02:03] <jbailey> lamont: He just wants to be able to tell everyone how safe it is to be on bleeding edge breezy. =)
[02:03] <jdub> oh
[02:03] <jdub> just seed shifts
[02:03] <lamont> jdub: right now, you should get linux-kernel-headers, doxygen, and (sometime soon) gcc-4.0
[02:03] <jbailey> infinity: I sent gotom my 2.3.5 .orig.tar.gz so that when they do the update, we'll be using the same one.
[02:04] <jdub> oh man
[02:04] <jdub> python-uno
[02:04] <jdub> fear
[02:04] <lamont> jdub: and lots of new source
[02:05] <jdub> luckily i don't have a source mirror yet ;)
[02:05] <jbailey> mdz: With that Java list, a number of the items are things that go away when we do JavaPackaging.  Do you want a report back, or do you just want them fixed when uploads are flowing again?
[02:05] <jdub> which is why i need daniels
[02:05] <infinity> jbailey : Well, I'm still hoping to find some time to get a proper patch into Sarge (where it's really needed, for upgrade reasons), but I've been flat out with Ubuntu, Real Life, and not much else.
[02:05] <jbailey> ls
[02:05] <mako> jdub: i just got an email you'll get a kick out of
[02:06] <jbailey> infinity: Right.  I haven't looked at the linker changes from the point of view of backporting them.
[02:06] <lamont> mako: pants?
[02:06] <jdub> i am not compatible with kicking this morning
[02:06] <mako> lamont: no, some guy is like "you guys should talk to this guy i heard of named bruce perens. there is this project called userlinux. maybe you can invite him into the fold. or port their metapckages"
[02:06] <mdz> jbailey: uploads are flowing
[02:07] <mdz> at least, some did
[02:07] <mdz> flow
[02:07] <mako> it's like.. "the invitation message was on SLASHDOT"
[02:07] <jdub> mako: ask him what mars is like this time of year
[02:08] <mako> well, he's on the right track.. he's just like a solid month behind the rest of us
[02:09] <infinity> jbailey : Backporting the current code isn't worth the headache, since he completely rewrote the whole shebang not that long ago.  But if you go back to where gotom committed his patch, drepper cleaned it up and fixed several missing use cases in the next few revisions.  That stuff's not included in the Debian patch.
[02:09] <jdub> mako: ha ha
[02:09] <infinity> jbailey : It touched a few more files than gotom did, but it still looks reasonably harmless.  I just haven't made the time to backport it.
[02:10] <jdub> mako: "dear ubuntu man, meet bruce perens, who once led debian. love, random."
[02:14] <mako> jdub: "i think i sort of recognize teh name"
[02:17] <jbailey> Wasn't Random Love one of the Caldera folks?
[02:17] <lamont> jbailey: once we have gcc-4.0 and gcc-defaults there, anything else we should build before we open the flood gates?
[02:17] <tseng> Mandreraivatu
[02:18] <jbailey> lamont: doko and I are just trying to sort that out.  I have a glibc here, but it's configured to build ppc64, requires gcc-3.4 in the buildd that can also do ppc64.
[02:18] <lamont> jbailey: if it's something ppc specific, I can hold off on that architecture...
[02:19] <jbailey> 'kay.  My earlier builds showed no testsuite failures on i386, and only the expected one on amd64, so I think glibc's as good as I'm gonna get it.   I've been live testing it on ppc for a week.
[02:20] <jbailey> doko: Before you pass out, what do you want to do for ppc?  Can we drop gcc-3.4 into the buildd for now so we can get it going?
[02:20] <lamont> libs/glibc_2.3.2.ds1-20ubuntu13: Installed [required:]
[02:20] <lamont> that's what we currently have
[02:21] <elmo> woah
[02:21] <elmo> jbailey: can't we just back out the ppc64 stuff?
[02:21] <elmo> if we're going to go gcc-4, we should do it consistently
[02:21] <jbailey> elmo: Yup.  I just need to know what to do.  I'm ready to go with it, but it's easy enough to back out.
[02:21] <lamont> elmo: that was a 'not build anything on ppc yet', not a 'let ppc run without it'
[02:21] <jbailey> elmo: glibc requires gcc-3.4 to build right now.
[02:21] <jbailey> welll 3-x.
[02:22] <jbailey> 3.x
[02:22] <elmo> boggle
[02:22] <jbailey> I expect the stable branch will get the gcc-4 fixes in the next couple of months - Roland mentioned it as a target for 2.3.6.
[02:23] <elmo> lamont: ok
[02:23] <lamont> elmo: I'm really not _that_ crazy...
[02:38] <lamont> -rw-r--r--  1 root lamont 225499136 2005-04-13 18:27 hoary-baselive-i386.iso
[02:38] <lamont> or 40MB..
[02:42] <lamont> of course, there's the whole usefulness question of a livecd that has ubuntu-base, kernel, and nothing else.
[02:43] <crimsun> firewall.
[02:43] <lamont> crimsun: yeah.  actually, it's the 'so you want to build your own cut-down livecd' starting point
[02:43] <crimsun> yeah I figured that's where you were going with it :)
[02:44] <lamont> actually, we'll just publish the .cloop file (on cdimage), along side the full livecd.
[02:44] <jbailey> lamont: Ubuntu base on its own probably boots like stink and has enough to recover a system on it.
[02:44] <lamont> so it's a cut/paste of the 525MB file into a 90MB file
[02:44] <jbailey> lamont: Perfect fit in the toolkit of an IT consultant.
[02:44] <lamont> jbailey: oh yeah.  (hence the 40MB to fat comment - doesn't fit on a miniCD)
[02:51] <lamont> i386, amd64 done building gcc-4.0, ppc in install target, appears
[02:53] <jbailey> The build log that doko /msg'd me showed that it was trying to executre a 64bit program, and it can't do that without running on a 64bit kernel.
[02:54] <lamont> jbailey: which?
[02:54] <elmo> argh
[02:55] <elmo> if you guys want me to put a 64-bit kernel on those buildds, I need to have it, like, right freakin now
[02:56] <jbailey> elmo: We don't have one.  glibc doens't execute a 64 bit program in its build at all.
[02:56] <jbailey> I don't know that part of the gcc build.
[02:59] <lamont> amusingly?, gcc-4.0 built fine on the second try on amd64.
[03:08] <mdz> people are still responding to the EXTREMELY URGENT nvidia testing request from three weeks ago
[03:08] <infinity> Perhaps they missed the release announcement? :)
[03:11] <elmo> WT_F_?
[03:11] <elmo> gcc-4.0-locales optional        universe/devel
[03:12] <elmo> doko: dude?  that's like, so an empty package?
[03:15] <ogra> mako, forward hardware database mails to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:19] <kro> On the boot cdrom, you can boot with linux, server, or server-expert.  How is that implemented "underneath"?  Are they different kernels?
[03:20] <kro> whoops, meant to ask in #ubuntu
[03:20] <mike_douglas> kro: they are just meta-packages including different software
[03:21] <kro> I'm trying to use the netboot images, and I want to do a server only instal similar to what is done when you type server at the boot prompt.
[03:21] <kro> I have things working nicely, but it's doing a full desktop install.
[03:28] <mike_douglas> kro: can't you put "server" on the kernel line?
[03:29] <kro> I'm gonna try that.
[03:29] <kro> is it merely just a flag?
[03:29] <kro> I guess i'll find out.  :)
[03:30] <kro> I'll put it into my mknbi image and find out
[03:52] <Nigelenki> are the goals for breezy being lain out yet?
[03:52] <infinity> elmo : Are we doing a mass sync for universe too?
[03:52] <elmo> infinity: already done
[03:53] <elmo> it's just not building yet
[03:54] <infinity> elmo : Oh.  I don't see new source for autogen in pool/universe
[03:54] <elmo> autogen's in main?
[03:55] <elmo>    autogen |  1:5.6.6-2 |        breezy | source
[03:55] <infinity> That would make me a retard, then.  Excellent. :)
[03:55] <infinity> (It must have at one point been in universe, since I was looking at build logs downloading from universe.. Oh well)
[03:57] <cartel_> guys i dont understand why there is RestrictedFormats
[03:57] <cartel_> it makes no sense...
[03:57] <Burgundavia> I don't understand Cartel
[03:57] <cartel_> because redhat did it?
[03:57] <cartel_> Burgundavia: why lock out formats from the distribution?
[03:57] <cartel_> thats stupid..
[03:57] <Burgundavia> for legal reasons Ubuntu/Canonical cannot distribute those formats
[03:58] <cartel_> Burgundavia: for patent reasons?
[03:58] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:58] <cartel_> why disallow use of mp3 but include samba in mainline distro then?
[03:58] <cartel_> why include openoffice which violates microsoft patents?
[03:58] <Burgundavia> samba is not under active patent threat
[03:58] <Burgundavia> mp3 is
[03:58] <cartel_> why use linux, which violates 200 patents in the kernel?
[03:58] <cartel_> mp3 is not for free software codecs
[03:58] <Burgundavia> because the patents have not been proven in court
[03:58] <Burgundavia> mp3 has been
[03:59] <cartel_> thats fraunhofer's statement
[03:59] <cartel_> divx is not under active litigation against xvid
[03:59] <cartel_> nor has the patent been proven
[03:59] <Burgundavia> it also to do with the degree of risk
[03:59] <Burgundavia> samba would have some powerful corp backers
[04:00] <Burgundavia> and the EU would look very interested if something happened
[04:00] <Burgundavia> the audio/video formats are not the same
[04:00] <cartel_> samba is protected because it is based in australia
[04:00] <Burgundavia> not really
[04:00] <cartel_> they are exactly the same man..
[04:00] <cartel_> yes really, australian law allows reverse engineering, but anyway
[04:00] <Burgundavia> dvdcss is protected for use in norway
[04:00] <Burgundavia> but not in the us
[04:01] <Burgundavia> thus canonical cannot distribute them
[04:01] <cartel_> but canonical is not american
[04:01] <Burgundavia> still can be sued by American companies
[04:01] <cartel_> only if extradited
[04:02] <cartel_> extradition under civil suit is practically impossible
[04:02] <cartel_> thats like prosecuting someone for thoughtcrime
[04:02] <Burgundavia> cartel_, I don't know the whole specifics, but know that canonical distributes as much as it can
[04:02] <schweeb> ...
[04:02] <Burgundavia> and if it doesn't it probably has very good reason, and lawyers telling them that
[04:03] <schweeb> CIFS is a documented protocol
[04:03] <cartel_> i just dont get it, why act so much on high horse over some patents and disregard others?
[04:03] <Burgundavia> cartel_, see my last comment
[04:03] <mako> ogra: cool, thanks!
[04:04] <Nigelenki> https://addons.update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&version=1.0&os=Linux&id=436  I should recommend this for breezy, but htf do you package extensions for firefox
[04:05] <ogra> mako, wondering why they send to info@ :) the errormessage clearly states hwdb@, but anyway...every dataset counts ;)
[04:05] <cartel_> i should make a delta that adds support for all the RestrictedFormats to hoary
[04:05] <cartel_> i hate intellectual property law...
[04:05] <Burgundavia> cartel_, as do most of us
[04:05] <cartel_> so crackpot...
[04:06] <schweeb> marillat already has most of the RestrictedFormats...
[04:06] <schweeb> or at least the important ones
[04:06] <Burgundavia> elmo, ping
[04:06] <cartel_> it makes me sick to stomach.. i hate capitalism
[04:06] <cartel_> i hope the open source movement will lead to the eventual enlightenment of humankind and dawn of the second industrial revolution
[04:07] <elmo> Burgundavia: ?
[04:07] <schweeb> mako: has the CC meet been rescheduled yet?  what mail list does that stuff go out to?
[04:08] <cjb> cartel_: The open source movement doesn't oppose capitalism, I'm afraid.
[04:09] <Nigelenki> the OSS community supports capitalism o.o
[04:09] <Nigelenki> open source software makes it easier for your business to make money :P
[04:09] <Burgundavia> what most in the FLOSS community are opposed to are software patents, which kill innovation
[04:14] <infinity> cartel_ : State-sponsored monopolies (patent, copyright, etc) have little to do with capitalism, and probably conflict with it.  However, that, and the previous discussion, are pretty far off-topic here.
[04:14] <mdz> lamont: how goes the building?
[04:14] <zenwhen> So are there already breezy repos?
[04:14] <Burgundavia> zenwhen, yep
[04:14] <zenwhen> wheres the info?
[04:14] <Nigelenki> is there a wikipage for breezy
[04:15] <Nigelenki> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals  <-- Like that one
[04:15] <lamont> mdz: gcc-4.0 uploaded everywhere, jbailey is about to upload glibc, and then I need to review/upload gcc-defaults for doko, and then it's just a question of "what next"
[04:15] <infinity> Nigelenki : Release goals are likely to be hashed out in detail at the UDU conference at the end of the month.
[04:16] <lamont> "let 'er rip" seems to be the popular idea...
[04:16] <mdz> lamont: that'd be my pick
[04:16] <lamont> meanwhile, overhauling the internal scripts, etc.
[04:16] <lamont> added a new cloop to day, btw.
[04:16] <Nigelenki> infinity:  can we see hierharchial goals this time around?
[04:16] <lamont> we now have 'ubuntu', 'kubuntu', and 'base'
[04:16] <lamont> base is boring, but small.
[04:17] <Nigelenki> infinity:  there's an UbuntuHardened, MOTU, etc, who else?  There's a bunch of ubuntu teams right?
[04:17] <lamont> we're just going to have the cloop there for people who want to start from a minimum-livecd cloop
[04:17] <Nigelenki> Rather than wind up with one lug of a wikipage with a huge hunk of primary/secondary/opportunity goals, why not a set of goals for each team
[04:17] <Nigelenki> and a set of generic goals not related immediately to a given team
[04:18] <Nigelenki> just, to be pretty and stuff, not for any real reason :P
[04:18] <schweeb> I dunno, I like seeing a big list all spelled out
[04:19] <schweeb> I'm also the type of person that always downloads the single page HTML HOWTO from TLDP rather than the annoying multi-page one
[04:19] <Nigelenki> schweeb:  same here
[04:19] <Nigelenki> but I'm only interested in a few things
[04:20] <schweeb> it's all fine and dandy if they're well sorted, but multiple pages is... bleh
[04:20] <Nigelenki> ok well one page and well sorting?  :P
[04:20] <schweeb> sounds good :)
[04:20] <jbailey> Objet: 	glibc_2.3.5-0ubuntu1_source.changes ACCEPTED
[04:28] <lamont> gcc-defaults uploaded
[04:29] <jbailey> lamont: What did we finally settle on for gcc-defaults?
[04:30] <cartel_> so anyone know lara legassick?
[04:30] <elmo> cartel_: err, why?
[04:31] <cartel_> just interested
[04:32] <cartel_> is it the same lara as madaboutwine
[04:33] <lamont> jbailey: gcc_4.0, g++_3.3
[04:34] <cartel_> anyone got xen packages for hoary?
[04:34] <schweeb> cartel_: I plan on working on some eventually
[04:35] <schweeb> and fabbione's got some kernels in the works
[04:35] <cartel_> schweeb: so you dont have any yet?
[04:35] <schweeb> no
[04:35] <schweeb> doogie's packages should work though
[04:35] <schweeb> with only a few modifications
[04:35] <schweeb> think they're in experimental
[04:35] <cartel_> schweeb: where is the config file for the linux-image?
[04:35] <mako> schweeb: i'm pushing for two meetings.. one to approve the people we went over last night and the one next tuesday to take care of reamining businessa
[04:36] <mako> schweeb: we could do the approvals in the next day or two
[04:36] <cartel_> they are on p.d.o, i commited a ton of bugfixing for them
[04:36] <schweeb> I dunno, I haven't messed with the kernel much yet
[04:36] <schweeb> I had some preliminary packages built, but between Hoary release and getting a new job, I've been a bit distracted
[04:37] <cartel_> cool, i should be able to adapt doogie's packages to hoary and build a xen aware linux-image
[04:37] <cartel_> ill talk to you guys later
[04:37] <cartel_> off to do some hacking :)
[04:37] <schweeb> mako: awesome
[04:57] <dilinger> heh, awesome names
[04:57] <dilinger> usplat is simple and started from initrd. usplashd is complex, started /etc/inittab. communication is done by called usquirt which passes messages through a Unix Domain Socket mounted on a tmpfs filesystem on /etc/usplash/.control
[05:01] <elmo> jbailey: glibc doesn't have anything NEW now, right?
[05:04] <jbailey> elmo: Right.
[05:04] <jbailey> The only add's were ppc64 bits, and those are disabled now.
[05:04] <elmo> cool, thanks
[05:21] <mdz> lamont: but the cloops aren't accessible from outside of the LAN, right?
[05:25] <lamont> mdz: kamion is going to publish base.cloop on cdimage.u.c
[05:25] <lamont> rather than base.iso
[05:42] <mdz> lamont: I see the new gcc-defaults is in; does that mean the floodgates can open?
[05:44] <lamont> mdz: waiting for glibc to build, and beating chroots into existance everywhere.  Then we get flood gates
[05:45] <lamont> not that glibc should matter, but it's a pain when it's in transition (locales build-depending packages wind up in non-automatic dep-wait, and it annoys me)
[05:45] <lamont> of course, the other fun part has been discovering that breezy.buildd has to change for gcc-4.0 as well. :-(
[05:57] <mdz> lamont: and that means changing debootstrap...which means building it...
[05:58] <lamont> mdz: nah - buildd-config drops one in place if it's not there...
[05:58] <lamont> and it's that copy
[05:58] <mdz> ah, ok
[05:58] <lamont> debootstrap needs complete breezy love
[05:59] <mdz> Kamion gave debootstrap breezy love
[05:59] <locomorto> Is it possible to upgrade to grumpy yet?
[06:00] <jdub> locomorto: you can start using breezy, but not grumpy
[06:00] <mdz> which is likely what you meant anyway
[06:00] <zul> is it time for the meeting yet?
[06:00] <jdub> locomorto: breezy is the new name for 5.10, grumpy will be something else... spectacular :)
[06:00] <locomorto> grumpy == breezy atm
[06:00] <locomorto> really
[06:00] <locomorto> i take it back then
[06:01] <lamont> zul: what meeting?
[06:01] <zul> CC
[06:02] <robitaille> zul,  I don't think it was ever officially rescheduled to today
[06:02] <zul> ah ok
[06:06] <zul> later folks
[06:06] <locomorto> cya
[06:10] <fabbione> morning
[06:10] <locomorto> hey
[06:11] <fabbione> jdub: ?
[06:11] <fabbione> lamont: is it possible to build gcc-4 without l-k-h ?
[06:12] <lamont> fabbione: dunno - didn't lokk
[06:12] <fabbione> ok
[06:12] <fabbione> i guess i will have to wait jbailey
[06:12] <jdub> fabbione: yo
[06:12] <locomorto> anyone here compiled FF?
[06:12] <fabbione> jdub: sabdfl gave green light for GFS and i already have patches that build on ubuntu.
[06:13] <schweeb> robitaille: no, it hasn't been rescheduled yet, I guess
[06:13] <lamont> fabbione: fwiw, l-k-h, doxygen, gcc-4.0, gcc-defaults (and then I'm also doing glibc)
[06:13] <fabbione> jdub: you must take care of checking the user land once the sync with debian is finished
[06:13] <fabbione> lamont: what about ccache?
[06:14] <lamont> fabbione: is installed, haven't pre-built it though
[06:14] <lamont> (there is also a new gcc-opt)
[06:14] <fabbione> lamont: last upload from thom adds the gcc-4 trampolines :)
[06:14] <jdub> fabbione: GFS userland?
[06:14] <fabbione> jdub: yes. gfs-tools and all the cluster tools from RH
[06:14] <jdub> fabbione: hrm
[06:14] <fabbione> jdub: gfs as in global file system
[06:14] <lamont> fabbione: ah, in my chroots, we just invoke the compiler as '/usr/bin/ccache /usr/bin/gcc-4.0.gcc-opt ...'
[06:14] <jdub> fabbione: i can test them and stuff, but i'm not capable of maintaining them
[06:15] <lamont> fabbione: so I don't care.. :-)
[06:15] <fabbione> lamont: ah ok
[06:16] <lamont> fabbione: that is, we divert gcc-4.0 :-)
[06:16] <lamont> and 3.3 and 3.4
[06:16] <fabbione> jdub: well it is enough that you check if they are alligned with the kernel and ping MOTU
[06:16] <fabbione> jdub: to do the packaging if required
[06:16] <fabbione> jdub: but i need somebody to take care of it
[06:16] <lamont> fabbione: but I want sparc32 support... :-(
[06:16] <jdub> fabbione: ok, keep in mind that i'm at lca and udu, etc. :)
[06:16] <lamont> or a sparc64. :-)
[06:17] <jdub> fabbione: very keen to work with it during udu though
[06:17] <jdub> fabbione: (probably won't have binaries before then anyway ;)
[06:17] <fabbione> lamont: we will need to readd the the sparc32 kernels
[06:18] <fabbione> jdub: as i said we don't need them right away
[06:18] <femv> has anyone ever seen these :  pcmcia_socket0: unable to apply power   ??
[06:18] <lamont> fabbione: is that all?
[06:19] <fabbione> lamont: yes. we only miss the kernel for sparc32 because i don't have one to test
[06:19] <jdub> fabbione: should i bring my 220R to UDU? :)
[06:20] <jdub> fabbione: and my ultra 5?
[06:20] <fabbione> jdub: is there anyway i can get it to run something and get access to it?
[06:20] <fabbione> jdub: we defenitely need another buildd
[06:20] <lamont> we need an 'I feel lucky' option for language and keyboard... :-)
[06:20] <jdub> fabbione: at UDU for sure; running as another permanent buildd? most likely
[06:20] <fabbione> nah i don't need it at UDU
[06:20] <jdub> fabbione: i should be able to run it here
[06:20] <fabbione> i need another buildd :)
[06:20] <jdub> though it's fucking noisy
[06:21] <jdub> i'm not sure where i'd run it
[06:21] <jdub> hrm
[06:21] <jdub> but i can get it hosted somewhere
[06:21] <fabbione> jdub: want to donate it to me?
[06:21] <fabbione> i can host it really
[06:21] <lamont> get sparc32 happy, and I"ll throw an SS20 and an SS5 at the problem. :-)
[06:21] <lamont> they might actually keep up with the network bandwidth... :)
[06:21] <fabbione> lamont: ehehe no way.. i killed sparc32 because it's a hell to maintain with 2.6
[06:21] <jdub> fabbione: it's a long-term loaner, probably best for it to stay in the country ;)
[06:21] <fabbione> lamont: you can try to install Debian to start with
[06:22] <infinity> femv : I used to get it with my prism54 card with some versions of the driver.  It wouldn't reinit the card properly when it was removed and reinserted.
[06:22] <lamont> fabbione: yeah, but I don't want to. :-)
[06:22] <fabbione> lamont: well just to bootstrap the kernel
[06:22] <schweeb> save a SPARC, remove Solaris :)
[06:22] <fabbione> lamont: once the kernel is there you should be able to run ubuntu without any problem
[06:22] <infinity> femv : That was a year or so ago though, so I'm not likely to be much more helpful than that.
[06:22] <femv> infinity, i dont have a pcmcia inserted... .im getting it at startup
[06:24] <lamont> mdz: 9 minutes +/- (well, +...) to floodgates
[06:25] <femv> infinity, i though that to disable pcmcia checkup at startup may be a solution but i dont know how to do that
[06:26] <infinity> Whoa.  thom's in town.  And, like... wandering around aimlessly.  Neat.
[06:26] <lamont> jdub: do we have a quicken-like anything in ubuntu?  universe?
[06:26] <lamont> jdub: that is, do we like gnucash, or is it depricated/dead?
[06:27] <infinity> femv : Oh, you're seeing it with no card inserted?
[06:27] <infinity> femv : Does it have any other adverse effects, or just an error message you're not too keen on?
[06:27] <jdub> lamont: we don't support it, but it's the right thing for the moment
[06:27] <jdub> lamont: just that it's still built against gnome 1.x insanity
[06:29] <lamont> jdub: ew.
[06:29] <lamont> fix that. kthxbye
[06:30] <jdub> heh
[06:30] <lamont> heh
[06:30] <whiprush> what's this about a sparc buildd? Does someone need some sparc hardware?
[06:31] <schweeb> lol
[06:31] <schweeb> me
[06:31] <schweeb> and fabbione
[06:31] <locomorto> odd
[06:32] <locomorto> when i try to compile firefox, it says command not found...
[06:32] <schweeb> I need it for work and fun, and fabbione needs it for buildds or something
[06:32] <whiprush> fabbione: what kind of sparcs?
[06:32] <locomorto> i have build-essential
[06:32] <lamont> whiprush: something that'll run a 64-bit kernel
[06:32] <whiprush> sun blade 2000 do the trick?
[06:33] <fabbione> whiprush: whatever it can run debian/ubuntu on it
[06:33] <jdub> woo, gcc4
[06:33] <lamont> jdub: yep
[06:33] <jdub> whiprush: mmm, yummy :)
[06:33] <ajmitch> jdub: how many messages on breezy-changes? a few thousand?
[06:33] <fabbione> whiprush: pretty much yes
[06:33] <lamont> reminds me.. couple minutes, and some dist-upgrades, and we should be golden
[06:33] <jdub> ajmitch: so, it's currently getting *all* syncs, including universe :-)
[06:33] <jdub> ajmitch: we're up to the Cs
[06:33] <ajmitch> excellent :)
[06:33] <schweeb> whiprush: man, you've had that bastard marked for removal, haven't yoyu
[06:33] <whiprush> I just decommissioned my sunblade 2k. I'll ask about making a donation tomorrow.
[06:33] <ajmitch> has the buildd been turned on then?
[06:35] <whiprush> I got 2 E450's too .. those huge cubes if you want them
[06:35] <ajmitch> so how do we handle merging changes that we did to hoary into the breezy import?
[06:36] <infinity> ajmitch : Manually, as usual?
[06:36] <fabbione> ajmitch: manually
[06:36] <ajmitch> ah, lots of fun then
[06:36] <fabbione> yeps
[06:37] <womble> Wouldn't pretty much all of the changes in Universe have gone to the upstream packager?
[06:38] <ajmitch> depends on the MOTU who did the change - we haven't organised an effort to submit then together
[06:38] <ajmitch> things like the python2.4 transition don't necessarily go upstream as-is, since we change the default to 2.4
[06:39] <womble> But most of the changes would be suitable for Debian/upstream -- seems like doing that would save you a lot of manual hassle when the sync comes.
[06:40] <|QuaD-> when is the sync coming?
[06:40] <ajmitch> now
[06:40] <schweeb> womble: this goes back to what we were discussing the other day... there isn't necessarily a complete system to see the changes we've made for the upstream maintainer... but it's being worked on
[06:40] <|QuaD-> ajmitch: how long will it take?
[06:41] <ajmitch> womble: at the rate we had to fix universe packages for the release, bugfiling slipped down the list a bit :)
[06:41] <ajmitch> |QuaD-: no idea
[06:41] <ajmitch> I'm just watching the mail flood in
[06:41] <womble> ajmitch: Heh.
[06:41] <|QuaD-> ajmitch: mail flood in?
[06:41] <ajmitch> might as well use my gmail account for something :)
[06:42] <ajmitch> |QuaD-: all the sync uploads are announced on the breezy changes list
[06:42] <|QuaD-> ajmitch: ohh, i have it on digest, haven't checked my email yet though
[06:43] <lamont> Apr 14 05:43:29 buildd: Starting build (dist=breezy) of:
[06:43] <lamont> Apr 14 05:43:29 buildd: bash_3.0-14 debianutils_2.13.2 sed_4.1.4-2 acl_2.2.29-1 attr_2.4.21-1
[06:43] <lamont> mdz: gates open
[06:44] <ajmitch> oh great
[06:44] <ajmitch> how long would it take to build the whole archive?
[06:44] <fabbione> that means that sparc is already 3 days behind :P
[06:44] <schweeb> fabbione: hahaha
[06:44] <fabbione> schweeb: that's what it takes to build gcc-4 + glibc :)
[06:45] <fabbione> given that it will build
[06:45] <schweeb> so are you gonna make SPARC a targeted platform for breezy, or is it gonna be "unofficial" still
[06:46] <fabbione> sparc will not be official until there is a userbase
[06:46] <fabbione> and there cannot be a real userbas until i am the only one building packages, because it will most of the time out of sync..
[06:46] <fabbione> isn't that cool?
[06:46] <schweeb> s/i am the only one/i am not the only one/ ?
[06:47] <whiprush> hey so when the boss approves, you want me to ship the box to you or ship it someplace else? Only way to get debian on the 2k is a tftp thing last I checked.
[06:47] <schweeb> whiprush: we could host a SPARC buildd there
[06:47] <schweeb> maybe that's what kop and I can do this weekend
[06:48] <whiprush> yeah. what do you think fabbione?
[06:48] <doko> morning all
[06:48] <lamont> morning doko
[06:48] <lamont> flood gates just opened
[06:48] <schweeb> seeing as I'm gonna admin Solaris, I may as well get as familiar with the SPARC platform in general
[06:49] <jdub> lamont: YAY!
[06:49] <jdub> lamont: next time, maybe like this:
[06:49] <Lathiat> flood gates?
[06:49] <jdub> *** THE FLOOD GATES ARE OPEN! ***
[06:49] <crimsun> something about the version number of libc6 2.3.5 scares me.
[06:50] <jdub> crimsun: just wait for libc6 6.6
[06:50] <schweeb> jdub: my buddy's 21st birthday is on 6/6/06
[06:50] <schweeb> heh
[06:50] <doko> lamont: thanks, any changes for the proposed gcc-defaults?
[06:51] <schweeb> jdub: he doesn't expect to live through the night
[06:51] <Lathiat> schweeb: hah nice
[06:53] <jdub> schweeb: hey, waking up as a vodka zombie isn't so bad!
[06:53] <lamont> doko: other than grumbling at you and repackaging it as source-only, no.
[06:53] <schweeb> heh
[06:54] <ajmitch> evening mpt
[06:54] <schweeb> jdub: I'll paypal you $50 USD if you get whiprush belligerantly drunk at UdU... you'll need it!
[06:54] <schweeb> :)
[06:55] <doko> lamont: ;)
[06:55] <jdub> schweeb: dunno man
[06:55] <jdub> schweeb: whiprush looks pretty stocky from the photos i've seen
[06:55] <schweeb> really stocky
[06:56] <schweeb> and he drinks like a fish
[06:56] <schweeb> and just keeps on drinking
[06:56] <schweeb> :-/
[06:56] <jdub> definitely has some russian tractor thrower genes
[06:56] <|QuaD-> schweeb: you have met me?
[06:56] <|QuaD-> :)
[06:56] <schweeb> |QuaD-: not that I know of :)
[06:57] <mpt> hi ajmitch
[06:57] <|QuaD-> schweeb: it was a joke, when you were describing your friend, i implied it was me
[06:57] <schweeb> ah
[06:59] <ajmitch> I wonder how painful a dist-upgrade from sid to breezy will be :)
[06:59] <crimsun> right now?
[06:59] <crimsun> I'll tell you in 10 minutes.
[07:00] <crimsun> (yes, I do this daily)
[07:00] <schweeb> sounds ugly
[07:00] <ajmitch> once sid is imported & built
[07:00] <crimsun> the beauty of debootstrap
[07:00] <schweeb> crimsun: indeed
[07:01] <Treenaks> E
[07:01] <lamont> ajmitch: well, before the merges all get done, it could be quite painful
[07:02] <ajmitch> lamont: yeah, and it'd be on my main work machine, so I think I'll wait a few weeks
[07:02] <lamont> since, until the merges happen, changed things in hoary will be older (in breezy) than in sid
[07:02] <lamont> and note that mixing debian and ubuntu debs is known to be fraught with peril.
[07:03] <Treenaks> lamont: yes, but we have dholbach!
[07:03] <ajmitch> heh
[07:03] <ajmitch> bbl
[07:04] <schweeb> Treenaks: yea, but he's on a bit of a holiday :)
[07:04] <fabbione> lamont: looking at it
[07:05] <lamont> fabbione: is read-only list (pretty much guaranteed stale) of the state of the port
[07:05] <lamont> ditto for hppa
[07:05] <Treenaks> schweeb: then UDU is a good opportunity to fix it ;)
[07:06] <fabbione> lamont: yes.. i am building gcc-4 now :)
[07:06] <lamont> jbailey: so about those l-k-h errors....
[07:06] <fabbione> hopefully i can open the gates in a couple of days
[07:06] <lamont> jbailey: (hppa)
[07:06] <jbailey> lamont: Shh.  I'm sleeping.
[07:06] <lamont> first set are in posix_types.h, lines 42-44
[07:07] <jbailey> lamont: If they're just the long long set, I'll do them tomorrow late morning.
[07:07] <lamont> woot
[07:07] <lamont> jbailey: is lkh a build-dep of gcc-4.0?
[07:08] <jbailey> Nope, of the new glibc.
[07:08] <lamont> hrm... and we kinda want that before we floodgate...
[07:08] <fabbione> argh
[07:08] <fabbione> if i new.. i could have built gcc this night
[07:13] <fabbione> good night lamont
[07:13] <fabbione> thanks for the big help guys
[07:13] <fabbione> sparc is catching up ...
[07:13] <crimsun> :)
[07:13] <infinity> 'Night, lamont.
[07:14] <infinity> lamont : You realise the breezy builds will spin hideously out of control and all of it will completely break about 3 minutes after you hit the pillow, right?
[07:14] <schweeb> excellent, someone added breezy changes to gmane already
[07:15] <fabbione> infinity: nope...
[07:16] <Amaranth> breezy buildds are running?
[07:16] <fabbione> infinity: there are a lot of nice goodies.. like the autokick back :)
[07:16] <fabbione> Amaranth: yes
[07:16] <lamont> infinity: nah - it'll take them at least until 5 minutes after I actually am sleeping
[07:16] <crimsun> Amaranth: for the toolchain, yes
[07:16] <Amaranth> good enough :)
[07:16] <lamont> crimsun: they're wide open
[07:16] <crimsun> lamont: eeek
[07:16] <lamont> crimsun: on the 3, that is
[07:16] <crimsun> gotcha.
[07:17] <Amaranth> yay, new stuff
[07:17] <milli> lamont: I've got arla working as an AFS client...  its a bit cleaner implementation than openafs...
[07:18] <lamont> milli: coolness.
[07:18] <Amaranth> i was starting to get withdrawn symptoms, not getting my daily 40MB upgrade fix
[07:18] <lamont> btw, may wander down to snarf the beginnings of breezy..  dunno if I'll get to it before the weekend though
[07:18] <milli> lamont: which means charon can be flipped to hoary at some reasonable no-too-distant future time
[07:18] <fabbione> milli: i think i am going to pull AFS from itd HEAD
[07:19] <fabbione> milli: do you have an upstream url/reference?
[07:19] <milli> fabbione: not sure what you need for url/reference..
[07:20] <fabbione> milli: where is AFS upstream?
[07:20] <milli> fabbione: openafs* is in all debian releases, version 1.2.x, which only work with 2.4 kernels
[07:21] <milli> fabbione: openafs* in experimental is the 1.3.81 version, which is still not stable, obviously, but has support for 2.6 kernels
[07:21] <milli> fabbione: Is that enough?
[07:21] <fabbione> milli: i don't really care what is in debian.. i am talking about AFS upstream...
[07:21] <fabbione> they have a project page or something?
[07:21] <milli> fabbione: http://www.openafs.org/
[07:21] <fabbione> milli: perfect
[07:21] <fabbione> that's what i wanted
[07:22] <milli> torkel: Thanks a bunch for the pointer to Arla debs, they work great.
[07:23] <milli> torkel: I nominate you to become the debian maintainer  ;-)
[07:25] <milli> fabbione: btw, the only problematic part of the openafs stuff is openafs-client and openafs-modules-source
[07:25] <milli> fabbione: The other packages, *-dbserver, *-fileserver, etc. have no kernel dependencies, so 1.2.13 versions of those work on 2.6 kernel
[07:27] <locomorto> jdub, do you anything about what is being done in respect to Synaptic in Breezy?
[07:28] <Amaranth> in case things go boom :)
[07:29] <locomorto> lol
[07:29] <jdub> locomorto: not in anything but handwavy terms. things like this will be discussed in detail at UDU
[07:29] <fabbione> milli: i am going to take care of the kernel side.. somebody must do userland
[07:29] <fabbione> milli: i really don
[07:29] <fabbione> milli: i really don't have time to do both
[07:29] <fabbione> it's just too much otherwise
[07:30] <Amaranth> I think something like CnR would be cool, but obviously wouldn't be possible in time for breezy.
[07:30] <schweeb> CnR?
[07:30] <Amaranth> Linspire Click and Run
[07:31] <crimsun> fabbione: I'll be glad to take a look at userspace, since I have to use afs for university
[07:31] <schweeb> fabbione: you should make a list of stuff like that that's kernel related, that you need userspace packages made for... that's the kidn of stuff I'm usually interested in doing
[07:32] <fabbione> schweeb, crimsun: that's great
[07:32] <schweeb> I'll be revisiting that Xen stuff once things get less hectic with the work situation
[07:33] <Amaranth> ok, cd made
[07:33] <Amaranth> time for the breakage :)
[07:33] <locomorto> lol
[07:34] <locomorto> nothing  much is diffrent so far i believe
[07:34] <fabbione> atm we need 3 things in userland: http://sources.redhat.com/cluster/ http://www.openafs.org/ and http://aoetools.sourceforge.net/
[07:34] <Amaranth> locomorto: Just the toolchain recompiled with gcc4.
[07:34] <fabbione> i know a MOTU is working on the latter one
[07:34] <fabbione> for the first 2 we need to check if what we have in debian/ubuntu is good enough
[07:35] <fabbione> the latter needs full packaging (2 tools)
[07:35] <jdub> Amaranth: it is fairly likely breezy will have something very similar, possibly even supported
[07:35] <crimsun> fabbione: ok.
[07:35] <locomorto> oo
[07:35] <Amaranth> jdub: Written in Python? :)
[07:35] <fabbione> crimsun: but i want all the MOTU team looking at them
[07:35] <locomorto> Python pwns
[07:35] <schweeb> fabbione: rawk, we're gonna be a rocking server distro before long
[07:35] <crimsun> fabbione: you bet
[07:35] <fabbione> crimsun: the redhat cluster stuff is made of a lot of packages
[07:36] <fabbione> crimsun: and i am taking care of the kernel side...
[07:36] <fabbione> so you should only focus on userland
[07:36] <fabbione> schweeb: probably :)
[07:36] <crimsun> fabbione: k. I'll start with afs, since I actually have to use it
[07:36] <Amaranth> perl: warning: Setting locale failed. <--haha
[07:37] <Amaranth> I editting /etc/environment to tell it I'm not british and now I get these when I upgrade things. :)
[07:37] <fabbione> crimsun: i am sure it does not need a repackaging.. checking what is in debian/ubuntu is a very good start
[07:37] <fabbione> crimsun: remember we can pull in stuff from experimental
[07:37] <crimsun> fabbione: righto
[07:38] <fabbione> crimsun: we don't want to fork if we can avoid that
[07:38] <womble> Amaranth: It's just telling you that everyone should be british.
[07:38] <infinity> Amaranth : Perhaps you need to generate the locale you set up in /etc/env? (dpkg-reconfigure locales)
[07:39] <doko> jbailey, Mithrandir: Unpacking replacement linux-kernel-headers ...
[07:39] <doko> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_<IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu1_i386.deb (--unpack):
[07:39] <doko>  trying to overwrite `/usr/include/asm/kdebug.h', which is also in package amd64-libs-dev
[07:39] <Amaranth> So, does getting gcc4 mean we get all the gcj stuff (eclipse, tomcat, etc) that the RH folks have been bragging about in blogs? :)
[07:39] <Amaranth> infinity: locales already generated my en_US.UTF-8 locale
[07:39] <fabbione> doko: i am building gcc-4 on sparc now.. try to be around if something goes banana
[07:40] <Amaranth> infinity: I changed 'en_US:en_GB:en' to 'en_US:en
[07:40] <Amaranth> '
[07:40] <fabbione> doko: you really want it to build :) trust me...
[07:41] <Amaranth> wtf, why does gcc have an --enable-gtk-cairo flag?
[07:41] <jdub> Amaranth: gcj
[07:41] <jdub> (and surrounding insanity)
[07:41] <Amaranth> heh
[07:41] <Amaranth> but gtk doesn't use cairo yet...
[07:41] <Amaranth> unless things have changed a lot since last time i looked
[07:41] <doko> fabbione: speed up, I'm away starting tonight
[07:42] <fabbione> doko: it's building
[07:42] <fabbione> doko: it will take its time tho
[07:42] <Amaranth> when everyone was making such a big deal about it the only thing i saw was gtk depending on cairo to build but not actually using it
[07:42] <fabbione> doko: are you going to LCA?
[07:42] <doko> fabbione: it did build on experimental
[07:42] <fabbione> doko: well than it should build here
[07:42] <doko> no, joining pitti, seb128, amdu, mvo, ...
[07:43] <fabbione> doko: uh? for what?
[07:43] <Amaranth> hmm, are the mailing lists screwed up?
[07:43] <Amaranth> i never got a confirmation email for breezy-changes
[07:44] <fabbione> Amaranth: give the server sometime..
[07:44] <doko> fabbione: hanging around in Sydney, surfing, ...
[07:44] <fabbione> doko: ah ehehhe
[07:44] <Amaranth> fabbione: It's been about 20 minutes.
[07:44] <fabbione> Amaranth: please be patiente
[07:44] <Amaranth> The server is that overworked?
[07:44] <fabbione> yes
[07:44] <fabbione> it is flushing a big queue of messages at the moment
[07:45] <Amaranth> ah
[07:45] <fabbione> all the imports from sid
[07:45] <fabbione> it is at least 12 hours lagged as far as i can see
[07:45] <fabbione> so sit back and relax
[07:45] <Amaranth> holy crap
[07:46] <Amaranth> from sid import * just happened? :)
[07:46] <Amaranth> mpt's website is toast
[07:46] <fabbione> hey pitti
[07:47] <pitti> Good morning, world!
[07:47] <pitti> Hey fabbione
[07:49] <doko> welcome in the 4th GCC age
[07:50] <pitti> yay doko
[07:52] <Amaranth> I thought we already knew the kernel wouldn't build with 4
[07:52] <fabbione> Amaranth: 2.6.10 doesn't
[07:52] <fabbione> but we are not working on .10 atm
[07:52] <Amaranth> 2.6.11 fixes that?
[07:52] <fabbione> breezy will have at least .12
[07:52] <fabbione> Amaranth: no .11
[07:52] <fabbione> i am preparing 12rc2 atm
[07:53] <fabbione> .11 is pointless when .12 will be out in a few weeks
[07:53] <Amaranth> .12 might be the last one for awhile, now that linus doesn't scale anymore :)
[07:53] <crimsun> necessity is the mother of invention.
[07:53] <Amaranth> git looks interesting, yes
[07:53] <crimsun> linus will scale whether the world likes it or not
[07:54] <fabbione> Amaranth: your lack of faith in the force is disturbing
[07:54] <locomorto> i thought .11 was really buggy?
[07:54] <Amaranth> locomorto: The Ubuntu version is
[07:54] <fabbione> locomorto: as well
[07:54] <fabbione> Amaranth: dude.. .11 in ubuntu is a bk snapshot
[07:55] <Amaranth> and?
[07:55] <crimsun> yeah, it's not even .11
[07:55] <fabbione> and no.. it's not buggy
[07:55] <fabbione> it's not even supported
[07:55] <Amaranth> doesn't mean it isn't buggy :P
[07:55] <fabbione> Amaranth: you are making 2 wrong statements
[07:55] <torkel> milli: sounds good that arla debs works, there are some more things that have to be done before I can send it to the debian maintainer though
[07:55] <fabbione> Amaranth: first it's not .11
[07:55] <fabbione> Amaranth: second it's not buggy only in Ubuntu
[07:56] <Amaranth> fabbione: The package is called .11
[07:56] <fabbione> Amaranth: the version is not
[07:56] <fabbione> .11-0.2 <-
[07:56] <fabbione> doesn't ring a bell?
[07:56] <locomorto> will breezy still need for us to set the output plugin to eSound? I could never get alsa to work
[07:56] <fabbione> and the changelog states that clearly
[07:56] <crimsun> Amaranth: it is _not_ 2.6.11. Since fabbione is the kernel lead, I think he knows. :)
[07:56] <Amaranth> Oh, the only problem I had with it was inotify
[07:56] <Amaranth> crimsun, fabbione: I know it isn't .11
[07:56] <fabbione> inotify will be fixed in .12rc2
[07:56] <torkel> milli: for instance, it is time to drop kerberos 4 support
[07:56] <fabbione> or better
[07:56] <Amaranth> Most of your users call it .11 though.
[07:56] <milli> torkel: big nod
[07:57] <fabbione> it is already fixed..
[07:57] <fabbione> i only need to upload it :)
[07:57] <milli> torkel: I noticed 0.39 was released too, at least in CVS
[07:58] <fabbione> cache hit                         900940
[07:58] <fabbione> cache miss                        147254
[07:58] <milli> torkel: It does work fine though with my krb5 KDC.  I'm using aklog from the openafs stuff.
[07:58] <torkel> milli: and as for OpenAFS, skip the 1.2.x version.
[07:58] <fabbione> not too bad :)
[07:58] <torkel> milli: I know I haven't had time to look at 0.39 yet (and 0.40 will probably be out before I have time to do it ;-)
[07:59] <milli> torkel: The two things I miss are (1) no dynamic mounting and (2) can't push around files larger than cache size can grow to
[07:59] <milli> torkel: I.e., files can't be larger than the partition I set aside for Arla's cache
[08:00] <torkel> milli: 2 will probably be hard to fix in arla, as it caches the whole files, or rather from the begining of the files and as long as you have read
[08:01] <milli> torkel: but it doesn't freeze up the machine if there's a network hiccup either, which is better
[08:01] <torkel> milli: what do you mean by 1?
[08:01] <milli> torkel: If I have just one cell in CellServDB, e.g., athena.mit.edu
[08:01] <milli> torkel: that's all I'll see mounted under /afs
[08:01] <torkel> milli: true, and thats why I prefer arla on my laptop, and openafs on my workstation
[08:02] <milli> torkel: I can't say "cd /afs/cs.cmu.edu/" and it will auto-mount that.
[08:02] <milli> I like that feature in openafs
[08:03] <torkel> milli: in theory it should be able to use dns for that
[08:03] <milli> torkel: but arla-cli supports it...
[08:03] <milli> torkel: right, that's what arla-cli is doing for sure
[08:04] <milli> torkel: I can live with out (2), just have to rethink how I use it
[08:04] <milli> torkel: Any issues with the cache being on a reiser file system?  (I assume not... since it's working... )
[08:05] <torkel> milli: well, it is not recommended. Both the arla and openafs guys recommends ext2
[08:05] <milli> torkel: okay..
[08:06] <pitti> ah, DoS attack to my u-changes mailbox...
[08:06] <jdub> :-)
[08:06] <torkel> there have been issues with the cache on reiserfs, but I'm not sure if it was a problem in arla/openafs or reiserfs
[08:07] <Amaranth> heh, i signed up after the sid merge, i'm not going to get all those mails
[08:07] <milli> torkel: The openafs kernel module stores stuff in the inodes, so it must be ext2 or ext3 for it to even work
[08:07] <milli> torkel: arla doesn't appear to do anything fancy like that
[08:10] <torkel> milli: the biggest issue I have with arla right now is that not all vos subcommands are implemented. You have to use openafs to do some things
[08:18] <jdub> yay, we're up to i
[08:18] <Amaranth> heh, i isn't important
[08:18] <Amaranth> tell me when it gets past lib
[08:27] <pitti> fabbione: DILDO ALARM!
[08:27] <jdub> J TIME!
[08:29] <fabbione> pitti: i love you too
[08:31] <pitti> jdub: I really don't envy the buildds at this time...
[08:31] <pitti> infinity: hey, new PHP4 security bugs...
[08:37] <jdub> pitti: those big silver ipods finally have something to do ;)
[08:38] <jdub> next couple of weeks are going to be bad enoguh!
[08:38] <lifeless> pitti: is that the bably jesus butt plug ?
[08:38] <fabbione> jdub: please don't stop the mailing list
[08:39] <jdub> fabbione: nomail for me, silly mans ;)
[08:39] <fabbione> jdub: tsk :)
[08:43] <Burgundavia> jdub, what arch's is breezy going to be released on?
[08:45] <fabbione> Burgundavia: same as hoary
[08:45] <fabbione> there might be more unsupported arches
[08:45] <Burgundavia> fabbione, ok, thanks
[08:45] <fabbione> but that's another story
[08:46] <fabbione> i think we are targetting to have ia64/sparc64/hppa
[08:46] <infinity> pitti : Really?.. Lucky me.
[08:46] <fabbione> but they won't be supported
[08:46] <infinity> pitti : Forward 'em my way, and I'll roll new packages for warty and hoary.
[08:46] <pitti> infinity: not sure, maybe they already happen to be fixed in hoary since you backported much
[08:46] <pitti> infinity: they are fixed in .11
[08:47] <infinity> pitti : Well, forward them anyway, then, and I'll see. :)
[08:47] <pitti> infinity: I check that
[08:47] <infinity> pitti : What we have in the archive is basically 4.3.11RC1... That should contain most of the fixes in question, but I'd have to check each one to be sure.
[08:49] <infinity> pitti : Also, firefox 0.9.3 isn't vulnerable to CAN-2005-0150, cause it doesn't actually have that feature. :)
[08:49] <pitti> neat
[08:49] <jdub> Burgundavia: we're also planning to support a version of ubuntu for the ipod
[08:49] <pitti> infinity: I mark it as nonvuln for warty then
[08:49] <Burgundavia> jdub, umm, ok
[08:49] <Burgundavia> jdub, I am wondering for documentation stuff
[08:50] <Treenaks> jdub: "Ubuntu - The Other Universal OS" ?
[08:50] <jdub> oh, that'll be fine, ipod only has a few buttons and a scrollwheel - won't require much in the way of docs
[08:50] <Burgundavia> jdub, will installing on it be hard?
[08:51] <jdub> no, though navigating the ubuntu with the scroll wheel might require some dexterity
[08:51] <jdub> s/ubuntu/installer
[08:52] <jdub> Burgundavia: (i am pulling your leg.)
[08:53] <Burgundavia> jdub, I was about to photoshop something up
[08:53] <Burgundavia> jdub, In fact, I think I will do that
[08:53] <Burgundavia> jdub, for my talk
[08:54] <Amaranth> it's funny, debian is talking about dropping archs to get releases out faster and ubuntu is adding more
[08:54] <jsgotangco> hah good one
[08:55] <jdub> "Apple gives you iPod, Ubuntu gives you iBoob."
[08:55] <Amaranth> whee, new stuff
[08:56] <Amaranth> python already got recompiled with gcc4?
[08:56] <Burgundavia> jdub, is there a reason I have not got a confirmation email from my sub to breezy-changes?
[08:57] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: lag
[08:57] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: I was told it was about 12 hours behind because of the sid import. :)
[08:57] <jdub> lists seems to be quite slow atm
[08:58] <Amaranth> isn't elmo in charge of that stuff?
[08:58] <Amaranth> he might end up wildly tempted to hurt you :)
[08:58] <fabbione> jdub: ehhe well i am still getting emails from yesterday syn
[08:59] <fabbione> jdub: it's at libapache2
[08:59] <fabbione> that means it will take a long while to flush
[08:59] <fabbione> with date 13-04-2005 16:56
[08:59] <Seveas> yeah, me too
[09:00] <dholbach> morning
[09:00] <fabbione> hey dholbach
[09:00] <Seveas> morning
[09:00] <jdub> Amaranth: not the lists box
[09:00] <dholbach> i should have another emailadress
[09:00] <dholbach> breezy-changes over dial-up would have killed me :-)
[09:00] <Seveas> :o)
[09:00] <pitti> Hi dholbach
[09:00] <Seveas> so for only 1200 or so messages :)
[09:01] <dholbach> hey pitti
[09:01] <dholbach> Seveas: 1200? we're not even remotely there yet :-)
[09:02] <Amaranth> yay, package breakage
[09:02] <Amaranth> trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/python2.4/ConfigParser.py', which is also in package python2.4-minimal
[09:02] <Amaranth> from python2.4
[09:02] <Treenaks> \o/
[09:03] <Amaranth> it says python2.4 is an upgraded package and a new package added by the install
[09:03] <Amaranth> which makes no sense unless it's two mutually exclusive packages with the same name
[09:04] <dholbach> you're talking about breezy, right?
[09:04] <Amaranth> yep
[09:05] <dholbach> upgrading is kind of useless atm
[09:05] <dholbach> the buildds didnt even build 20% of the packages yet
[09:05] <dholbach> so things are bound to break
[09:07] <Amaranth> heh, i live in the bleeding edge
[09:07] <dholbach> breaking edge rather
[09:07] <Amaranth> but this python thing isn't becuse a package isn't built
[09:08] <Amaranth> err, because
[09:08] <Amaranth> does ubuntu split python in a different way?
[09:08] <Amaranth> than debian, i mean
[09:09] <infinity> Yes.
[09:09] <Amaranth> That'd explain it.
[09:09] <Amaranth> I'm guessing debian's python2.4 isn't just a meta-package
[09:23] <dholbach> have a nice day
[09:29] <zyga_> hello
[09:29] <Amaranth> hi
[09:29] <zyga_> anybody with current firefox on amd64?
[09:29] <pitti> Hi zyga_
[09:29] <zyga_> pitti: hi
[09:30] <zyga_> firefox crashes the split second after I visit this site http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/04132005e.php
[09:30] <zyga_> (link from ./ article)
[09:30] <zyga_> I've got no java AFAIR and of course no flash
[09:30] <zyga_> so no third party plugins are to blame
[09:31] <zyga_> can anyone confirm?
[09:32] <zyga_> I'm currently trying to run it via gdb...
[09:35] <lifeless> jdub: ping
[09:35] <zyga_> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
[09:35] <zyga_> 0x0000002a99da436d in NSGetModule () from /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/components/libgklayout.so
[09:36] <zyga_> and to hell it goes...
[09:37] <zyga_> can anyone advice what do do next?
[09:40] <infinity> zyga_ : Is it just the content of the page that breaks it (ie: if you wget the URL, and view it via file:///foo.html, does it still crash?)
[09:40] <infinity> zyga_ : If not, trying to narrow down which linked content breaks it would be nice.
[09:41] <infinity> zyga_ : As well as a full backtrace (bt in gdb after that SEGV)
[09:41] <infinity> zyga_ : And all that info can happily land in a bug report. :)
[09:44] <zyga_> infinity: bt is useless -- firefox is built without debug information
[09:44] <zyga_> infinity: only the gnome/gtk compatibility plugin has any symbols
[09:44] <infinity> zyga_ : Some people are half decent at tracing nearly meaningless backtraces. ;)
[09:45] <infinity> zyga_ : You're welcome to rebuild without stripping, though, and see if you can still reproduce it.
[09:45] <zyga_> infinity: yes it's the content of that page that's causing this but I'm not sure how to narrow it down (apart from hand hacking of course)
[09:45] <zyga_> infinity: never built firefox, is it any more difficult than ./configure && make ?
[09:46] <infinity> zyga_ : Well, you'd want to rebuild the Debian package, to make sure ou're getting a similar binary.
[09:46] <zyga_> infinity: I've mirrored the offending site - I'll reconfirm that I can crash it locally
[09:48] <Amaranth> it's failing to load an XPCOM module?
[09:48] <zyga_> infinity: it does not break when run from disk :/
[09:49] <infinity> zyga_ : Okay, so it's something linked from the page, not the page itself.
[09:49] <infinity> zyga_ : If you don't mind wasting time and diskspace, you can rebuild it with something like:
[09:49] <zyga_> infinity: I've did wget -p but it probably didn't fetch any javascript generated adverts
[09:49] <zyga_> mvo: hey
[09:50] <mvo> hey zyga_
[09:50] <zyga_> infinity: I sure don't mind -- just tell me how
[09:50] <mvo> morning all
[09:50] <infinity> apt-get install build-essential ; apt-get build-dep mozilla-firefox ; DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip apt-get -b source mozilla-firefox
[09:50] <zyga_> infinity: BTW: I'm currently set to breezy, is that okay?
[09:51] <Pizbit> And you're wondering why stuff is breaking?
[09:51] <infinity> Oh, I lied.
[09:51] <zyga_> Pizbit: I've not downloaded anything yet ;]
[09:51] <infinity> zyga_ : Make that DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=debug
[09:51] <infinity> zyga_ : And I'd recommend using hoary for this. :)
[09:51] <zyga_> infinity: should I switch back to hoary for now?
[09:51] <zyga_> ok
[09:52] <infinity> zyga_ : (Assuming you haven't upgraded anything yet... If you have, then lord only knows what broke)
[09:52] <infinity> zyga_ : Check you glibc version before we go any further. :)
[09:54] <zyga_> infinity: libc6, 2.3.2.ds1-20ubuntu13
[09:54] <infinity> Okay, good. :)
[09:54] <infinity> Then switch back to hoary, apt-get update, then do the above.
[09:54] <zyga_> infinity: doing now
[09:55] <infinity> jbailey : ping.
[10:02] <Treenaks> infinity: cool
[10:02] <Treenaks> if(!i386) {
[10:02] <zyga> dpkg-buildpackage: host architecture is amd64
[10:02] <zyga>  debian/rules clean
[10:02] <zyga> dh_testdir
[10:02] <zyga> dh_testroot
[10:02] <zyga> dh_testroot: You must run this as root (or use fakeroot).
[10:02] <zyga> should I really build this as root?
[10:02] <Treenaks> zyga: well, use fakeroot :)
[10:02] <zyga> fakeroot ... ?
[10:03] <zyga> ... = stuff above
[10:03] <Treenaks> zyga: DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=debug fakeroot apt-get -b source mozilla-firefox
[10:03] <GheRivero> res
[10:03] <zyga> ok
[10:03] <Treenaks> you might need to apt-get install fakeroot
[10:03] <zyga> okay building firefox now :-)
[10:04] <infinity> Oh, I see.  Hackish cut-n-waste on jbailey's part... linuxthreads support was dropped on ppc as well.
[10:05] <Treenaks> linuxthreads support dropped?
[10:05] <Treenaks> in favor of what?
[10:05] <infinity> That means I need to upgrade the kernel on my PowerPC devel box to get my breezy chroot to work.
[10:05] <infinity> Treenaks : NPTL only... IOW, Linux 2.6 and up.
[10:05] <Treenaks> nice
[10:15] <zyga> hmm
[10:15] <zyga> I'm experiencing very strange things here
[10:15] <zyga> ps aux ... hangs
[10:16] <crimsun> something in D state? your kernel oopsed?
[10:16] <zyga> trying to kill it from another shell hangs too
[10:16] <zyga> crimsun: nothing is in D state (nothing printed at least)
[10:17] <zyga> checking syslog
[10:17] <crimsun> dmesg will probably have spew
[10:17] <zyga> nothing...
[10:17] <zyga> I think I should reboot now :P
[10:18] <mvo> zyga: did it happen during the firefox build?
[10:18] <zyga> mvo: yes
[10:18] <zyga> mvo: bad ram?
[10:18] <zyga> I've had hangs on this box in the past
[10:18] <zyga> but testing the memory for two days didn't show anything
[10:18] <mvo> might be, have you run the memtesten in the grub menu before?
[10:18] <mvo> oh, ok
[10:19] <zyga> brb
[10:29] <zyga> back
[10:30] <zyga> http://www.suxx.pl/firefox-crash/firefox-crash-full-backtrace.txt
[10:30] <zyga> (full as in whole, not as in with symbols)
[10:31] <Treenaks> not with symbols?
[10:31] <zyga> still building
[10:32] <doko> amu, d3vic3: I cannot reproduce the python2.4 upgrade bug, that you are seeing: <amu> Unpacking replacement python2.4 ...
 dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/python2.4_2.4.1-1_powerpc.deb (--unpack):
  trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/python2.4/ConfigParser.py', which is also in package python2.4-minimal
[10:33] <doko>  python2.4-minimal has: Replaces: python2.4 (<< 2.4dfsg-1ubuntu1)
[10:34] <crimsun> but sid has 2.4.1-1
[10:38] <doko> I see, but that's not a warty upgrade ...
[10:38] <crimsun> ah
[10:39] <doko> yes, that's a downgrade of the python version ...
[10:43] <zyga> does anyone still use that?
[10:49] <torkel> zyga: it must have been over ten years ago since anybody used gopher :-)
[10:50] <pitti> Hi seb128
[10:50] <seb128> hey hey pitti :)
[10:50] <fabbione> hey seb128
[10:50] <Kamion> gopher still has fringe popularity
[10:51] <seb128> Hi fabbione :)
[10:51] <pitti> elmo: any idea why helena does not work any more for at least warty-security?
[10:51] <Kamion> it went through a revival a while back
[10:51] <fabbione> Kamion: morning
[10:52] <Kamion> morning
[10:52] <Amaranth> where is -changes at now?
[10:52] <fabbione> perforate
[10:52] <Amaranth> *groan*
[10:52] <Amaranth> lots of p packages
[10:52] <Amaranth> python stuff, php stuff, perl stuff....
[10:53] <seb128> the breezy packages are built with gcc4 ?
[10:53] <Amaranth> yep
[10:53] <Kamion> seb128: for C, yes
[10:53] <Amaranth> C++ isn't?
[10:53] <Kamion> not yet, see gcc-defaults changelog
[10:53] <seb128> we don't want a transition now
[10:53] <Kamion> C++ requires a transition
[10:53] <seb128> was not just sure about gcc, thanks Kamion
[10:54] <Amaranth> i thought 4 was supposed to be compatible with 3.4 for C++
[10:55] <pitti> Amaranth: yeah, but so far we use 3.3
[10:55] <Amaranth> ah
[10:55] <zyga> how long does it take to build ff on a modern 1cpu box?
[10:56] <zyga> < 1h?
[10:56] <pitti> about 1 h maybe
[10:56] <Amaranth> why 3.3 for java?
[10:56] <Amaranth> i thought all the exciting java stuff was in 4.0
[10:57] <doko> Amaranth: depends on C++
[10:57] <Amaranth> ah
[10:57] <Amaranth> going to wait until you get sid imported and cleaned up before moving to 4 or is that not a breezy goal?
[10:58] <Kamion> getting sid imported and cleaned up is always a goal, but will happen in parallel
[10:58] <Kamion> weird, http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/ has binary-hppa but not binary-ia64
[10:58] <fabbione> Kamion: yeah
[10:59] <fabbione> ia64 has been moved out of the way
[10:59] <doko> Kamion: that was turned off before the release?
[10:59] <Kamion> where's ia64 gone? I need to know for debootstrap
[10:59] <fabbione> probably elmo missed the rsync exclude line
[10:59] <Kamion> I'm not surprised about ia64 being gone, I'm surprised about hppa being there. :)
[10:59] <fabbione> Kamion: i think it will be moved to ports.u.c
[10:59] <fabbione> that is not up yet
[11:00] <Kamion> ok. breezy won't be sanely debootstrappable for a bit anyway
[11:00] <fabbione> yeah
[11:13] <zyga> infinity: it's built
[11:13] <zyga> infinity: seems that a nice .deb is in place too :-)
[11:15] <Amaranth> seb128: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=300589 <--that bug you wanted me to file
[11:17] <zyga> and it broke ;-)
[11:17] <zyga> pretty symbols now :>
[11:18] <Treenaks> zyga: url?
[11:18] <zyga> infinity: just a moment
[11:18] <zyga> (gdb) bt full
[11:18] <zyga> #0  0x0000002a9a422663 in nsObjectFrame::PluginNotAvailable () from /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/components/libgklayout.so
[11:18] <zyga> No symbol table info available.
[11:18] <zyga> hmmm
[11:19] <zyga> why is that? no symbol table info avail?
[11:20] <Amaranth> PluginNotAvailable?!?
[11:20] <maswan> Mithrandir: sbd2? I wiped that filesystem, so I guess I should edit the fstab to reflect that.
[11:20] <Amaranth> ouch, it shouldn't fail on that :)
[11:22] <zyga> www.suxx.pl/firefox-crash
[11:22] <Mithrandir> maswan: ah, ok.
[11:22] <Mithrandir> maswan: any reason for who and friends to hang and such?
[11:24] <zyga> hmm
[11:24] <zyga> if you want I can re-run this with LANG=C
[11:24] <maswan> Mithrandir: works fine for me? :)
[11:25] <Amaranth> zyga: Start firefox in safe mode and see if it crashes.
[11:25] <zyga> Amaranth: how?
[11:26] <Amaranth> firefox --safe-mode, appearently
[11:27] <astharot> ciao
[11:27] <Mithrandir> maswan: in the base system too?
[11:27] <Mithrandir> maswan: ps -ef hangs too
[11:28] <maswan> ah, ps -ef hangs for me
[11:28] <Amaranth> does anyone know what 'ubuntu-geek' from the forums goes by on IRC?
[11:28] <maswan> Mithrandir: who works fine though. hmm.. lets see.
[11:28] <zyga> Amaranth: it crashed again
[11:28] <Treenaks> hostinggeek maybe?
[11:28] <zyga> Amaranth: uploading logs
[11:28] <Amaranth> Treenaks: Not a chance.
[11:28] <d3vic3> heh
[11:28] <Mithrandir> maswan: w hangs
[11:28] <Amaranth> Treenaks: ubuntu-geek is the ubuntuforums.org admin :P
[11:28] <Treenaks> Amaranth: ah.. ok
[11:29] <maswan> Mithrandir: ah
[11:29] <Amaranth> zyga: That log will be the one you want to give to the firefox developers.
[11:29] <zyga> Amaranth: the first time I've started it in safe mode it broke on some thread stuff
[11:29] <zyga> Amaranth: re-started it worked fine untill it broke ;-)
[11:43] <pitti> jbailey: uh, I almost missed your glibc changelog amongst the spam^Wauto-sync ones
[11:44] <Amaranth> what is -changes on now?
[11:46] <d3vic3> breezy
[11:47] <Treenaks> Amaranth: back on o (again)
[11:47] <Amaranth> *groan*
[11:47] <Treenaks> Amaranth: your dialup will love you
[11:48] <Amaranth> Treenaks: 5mbit cable :)
[11:48] <Amaranth> and i'm not on the list yet, i subscribed somewhere in the middle to end of the auto-sync
[11:48] <Treenaks> php4-auth-pam...
[11:49] <zyga> Amaranth: I've filed the bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290294
[11:49] <zyga> Thanks for your help :-)
[11:49] <infinity> zyga : Thanks for filing it.
[11:51] <mvirkkil> Is it possible to spawn a new process from python and have startup-notification?
[11:59] <Treenaks> how long will this import mail flood take?
[12:06] <Amaranth> couple more hours? :)
[12:06] <Treenaks> we can only hope ;)
[12:06] <Amaranth> someone said it was 12 hours behind
[12:06] <Treenaks> is it building?
[12:06] <Treenaks> or did the binaries get imported as well?
[12:07] <maswan> Mithrandir: my guess is that the old biarch system is simply borked, that's why it would be nice to have a working installer kernel so I could reinstall the machine on the proper disk.
[12:08] <Mithrandir> maswan: ok.  Do you know what's broken in the current kernel?
[12:08] <Amaranth> it's building
[12:09] <Treenaks> why is it "qsynaptics", not synaptiqs
[12:10] <Amaranth> ?
[12:11] <Treenaks> Amaranth: oh, just seeing "qsynaptics" in my mailbox
[12:11] <maswan> Mithrandir: Not more than the current bug report in the matter
[12:12] <maswan> Mithrandir: Of course, I haven't tried the very latest version, because it is a fair bit of work to take it down and try an install.
[12:13] <maswan> infinity: the bug is some months old, applied to warty install kernel as well as the hoary daily a month or two ago
[12:14] <infinity> maswan : Err, I wasn't talking about that at all, actually. :)
[12:14] <maswan> infinity: ah, ok. :)
[12:14] <infinity> maswan : A bug that just got filed against Sarge's php4, which is, of course, in hoary.
[12:15] <Amaranth> url?
[12:16] <Mithrandir> maswan: hm, ok
[12:17] <infinity> Amaranth : http://bugs.debian.org/304601
[12:20] <infinity> Oh well, can't win 'em all with time-based releases.
[12:21] <mvirkkil> Is it possible to spawn a new process from a python program and have startup-notification for that process? Or perhaps spawn it through gnome in some way?
[12:22] <mvirkkil> Ask gnome to start up a program from a specified .dekstop file
[12:23] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: why?
[12:23] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: maybe look at how nautilus does it?
[12:23] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: or the menu..
[12:23] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: and imitate in pygtk
[12:24] <mvirkkil> Treenaks: Gnome-app-install can spawn synaptic. If synaptic is slow to start it will look like g-a-i just died since synaptic hasn't come up yet.
[12:26] <mvirkkil> Though personally I don't think it should be possible to launch synaptic from g-a-i
[12:26] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, why not?
[12:28] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Because they are different programs for different people.
[12:28] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, but they serve the same purpose in the eyes of the user
[12:28] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, they just need to brought a little closer together in terms of ui
[12:29] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Well, I'm not so sure about that.
[12:29] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Exactly. The ui's are totally different
[12:29] <Burgundavia> I think that gai should be extended to everything
[12:29] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Wow. I don't.
[12:29] <Burgundavia> and we need screenshots and longer descriptions in them
[12:29] <Burgundavia> we need a good app installer
[12:30] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I think g-a-i should be an application installer.
[12:30] <Burgundavia> gai and synaptic are lovely, but too limited
[12:30] <Burgundavia> synatpic because of its ui
[12:30] <Burgundavia> and gai because of the artificial limits of just main
[12:30] <Burgundavia> and no screenshots and longer descriptions
[12:31] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: You need something like Linspire Click and Run. :)
[12:31] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I somewhat agree that screenshots and longer descriptions might be nice, but then again I feel that gai might be better as a simple program for maintaining the most common apps.
[12:31] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, yes, but without the linspire cruft
[12:31] <Amaranth> of course
[12:32] <Burgundavia> but what about the really nice stuff in universe?
[12:32] <Amaranth> but something that easy and nice to use :)
[12:32] <Burgundavia> like gai
[12:32] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I really hate the idea of teaching people to install stuff from their browser.
[12:32] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: --^
[12:32] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, so do I, that is why I see gai as the answer
[12:32] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: It doesn't have to run from a browser, that's why I said 'like'.
[12:32] <Burgundavia> an offline tool, that connects to everything
[12:32] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: That's an interesing idea.
[12:33] <UbuWu> I have an idea for the installer
[12:33] <UbuWu> why not create an apt:// protocol
[12:33] <Burgundavia> in about 30 secs I could list what I want
[12:33] <Burgundavia> make that a screenshot
[12:33] <UbuWu> that would fire up synaptic to install a program
[12:33] <Amaranth> UbuWu: Nasty. :)
[12:34] <UbuWu> so I can make a link to apt://program-name in a website
[12:34] <pitti> uh, tricky situation
[12:35] <pitti> I have a security update of package foo, with the same version in warty and hoary
[12:35] <pitti> so actually both updates would be -ubuntu0.1, which isn't possible
[12:35] <pitti> I guess I just name the hoary one -ubuntu0.2...
[12:36] <tseng> elmo: did you get a reminder from me to keychain@? i just realized that my isp has started blocking outgoing mail silently
[12:39] <mvo> UbuWu: this will be discussed at the package management bof at the UDU conference
[12:40] <mvo> UbuWu: there is also a wiki page about it that dicusses various pros/cons
[12:42] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, Amaranth: http://img114.echo.cx/my.php?image=appinstallmyway7gd.png
[12:42] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, Amaranth very crude
[12:42] <Amaranth> I hate it. ;)
[12:42] <Burgundavia> good
[12:43] <Burgundavia> I like strong reactions out of people
[12:43] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, honestly? what do you think of it?
[12:44] <mvo> Burgundavia: I don't think that is the way to go. if we want screenshots and rich markup, we can't use a GtkTreeView, it will be a lot of work with little gain
[12:44] <Amaranth> Well, I thought g-a-i was a bad idea to begin with, adding more on to it doesn't fix it. :)
[12:44] <mvo> also I think the general idea to have something click-n-run like is worthwhile :)
[12:44] <Amaranth> Let's do it in Python! :)
[12:44] <Burgundavia> mvo, but that is clicknrun done right, in my view
[12:45] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: Show me 200 apps in that with 3 paragraph descriptions and screenshots big enough to see anything.
[12:45] <mvo> Burgundavia: what is wrong with click-n-run? that it is web-based?
[12:45] <Burgundavia> mvo, 1. linspire 2. seems cludgy, from the views i have seen. 3. nonfree
[12:45] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, you wouldn't have all 300 app
[12:45] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:46] <Burgundavia> let me rework
[12:46] <Burgundavia> the ubuntu doc project already has a screenshot for everything in main
[12:47] <mvo> Burgundavia: we can do better in all points I think :) and I also think that rich markup will be needed. I don't think it will work well within the GtkTreeView context
[12:47] <Burgundavia> mvo, I am not commenting on the software that is needed. I am looking for a user perspective. What would make me install the software?
[12:49] <UbuWu> Mmm still think my idea would fit in here that was why I was mentioning it: make something like gnomefiles.org with links to synaptic for installing. That way would keep users to be familiair to synaptic and g-a-i could be gotten rid of alltogether.
[12:49] <mvo> Burgundavia: then I totally agree. we need screenshots and a long localized description
[12:50] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, web based installing is a link to malware and spyware
[12:50] <UbuWu> no not if it is from a thrusted source, it would still use the standard ubuntu repos
[12:50] <mvo> UbuWu: yes, I like the idea too. the problem is that we probably don't want it from a web-browser. but using html has some advantages
[12:51] <UbuWu> the main advantage I see is that sites like gnomefiles.org will be adding the links as well, which will make users life much easier
[12:52] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, making users lives easier does not involved letting them get into the idea of installing off the web, which leads to spyware
[12:52] <Burgundavia> security and usability go hand in hand
[12:52] <UbuWu> no it doesn't lead to spyware as long as spyware doesn't go into the official repositories
[12:53] <Burgundavia> however, if they click on a link in ff/galeon/etc. and get an app installed, your average user is not going to know the diff between spyware and our repos
[12:54] <UbuWu> that is why I would like it to open up synaptic, and asking for a password as usual off course.
[12:54] <Burgundavia> but that doesn't solve the user viewpoint issue
[12:54] <locomorto> Actually i heard jdub say we would be getting something similiar to linspire point n' click system. Look for more details at 'UDU'
[12:55] <locomorto> which would be like what your suggesting, only controllable
[12:58] <mvirkkil> How about turning that on its head. How about using g-a-i to browse the programs, then when clicking on additional info, they would get a firefox window with all the info they want.
[12:59] <Burgundavia> hmm
[12:59] <Burgundavia> you need one stop shopping
[12:59] <Burgundavia> look--see-install
[12:59] <Burgundavia> no external programs
[12:59] <Burgundavia> why not used mozembed
[12:59] <Burgundavia> s/used/use
[01:00] <locomorto> cause its still through a browser
[01:00] <locomorto> and if mozilla dies their tied to it
[01:00] <mvirkkil> locomorto: No it isn't.
[01:00] <Burgundavia> there are 2 issues here
[01:00] <Burgundavia> technical
[01:00] <Burgundavia> user perception
[01:00] <Burgundavia> the 1st is fairly easy
[01:00] <mvirkkil> I'm only worried about nr 2
[01:00] <locomorto> the Klick program is fine
[01:01] <locomorto> why try to re-invent the wheel
[01:01] <Burgundavia> 2 is my major issue as well
[01:01] <locomorto> is their any advatnage to do it through mozembed?
[01:01] <Burgundavia> locomorto, doesn't look like a browser
[01:01] <mvirkkil> locomorto: Integration with g-a-i
[01:01] <locomorto> g-a-i?
[01:01] <Burgundavia> gai needs to NOT look like a browser
[01:01] <Amaranth> using two seperate apps would be horrible
[01:01] <Amaranth> confusing
[01:01] <mvirkkil> locomorto: Gnome-app-install -> wouldn't be a browser.
[01:02] <locomorto> Burgundavia: why not used mozembed
[01:02] <Burgundavia> you don't necessarily need all the html
[01:02] <doko>  HAPPY BIRTHDAY pitti, 1/4 century old ... ;-)
[01:02] <Burgundavia> you need 4 things
[01:02] <Amaranth> yeah, use the python wrapper around gtkmozembed
[01:02] <Burgundavia> 1. app name
[01:02] <locomorto> and i was asking what the advantages of doing it rhough that would be anyway
[01:02] <Burgundavia> 2. app picture
[01:02] <Burgundavia> 3. app description
[01:02] <Burgundavia> 4. which repo
[01:03] <Burgundavia> those a simple xml could be contrived for that
[01:03] <UbuWu> Still I only see advantages of using a browser if it can be kept safe
[01:03] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, inherently unsafe in my view
[01:03] <pitti> doko: thanks!
[01:04] <Amaranth> happy birthday oldtimer^Wpitti
[01:04] <UbuWu> doesn't have to be
[01:04] <Amaranth> UbuWu: It gives users the wrong idea.
[01:04] <locomorto> ok Burgundavia, why do you think doing it through mozembed would be good?
[01:04] <Burgundavia> locomorto, I was just suggesting an easy way
[01:04] <Burgundavia> I didn't say it would be good
[01:04] <UbuWu> as long as the browser doesn't do the installing and can't start installing a random program but only the ones that are known safe
[01:04] <Amaranth> UbuWu: If Ubuntu packages come from a firefox window, they'll think packages from 3rd parties are safe
[01:04] <mvo> happy birthday pitti
[01:05] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, it will look the same to a user
[01:05] <UbuWu> packages don't come from the window
[01:05] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, ^
[01:05] <UbuWu> that is why it would have to open up synaptic
[01:05] <pitti> thanks everybody! :-)
[01:05] <UbuWu> to show the difference
[01:05] <Amaranth> UbuWu: Users were starting their install from firefox, it doesn't matter what it opens/
[01:06] <UbuWu> but they cannot install anything unsafe grom it
[01:06] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, not from us, no, but they will install from other sources
[01:06] <Amaranth> But it makes them think firefox was installing so installing things from firefox is ok.
[01:06] <locomorto> but they would be accustomed to thinking stuff from there was safe
[01:07] <locomorto> they might think in future that it would be safe, even if it did not open synaptic

Text Editor</name>

[01:08] <Burgundavia> that is all you really need
[01:09] <Amaranth> Let's do it in the iTunes Music Store format.
[01:09] <Lathiat> Burgundavia: and translations...
[01:09] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, true
[01:09] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, but for rendering, you wouldn't need all of gecko
[01:09] <UbuWu> no much more as more programs get in.... some kind of ranking system at least: rating and downloads
[01:09] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, ranking is nice, but a secondary goal
[01:09] <Burgundavia> downloads?
[01:10] <UbuWu> number of downloads
[01:10] <Burgundavia> sure
[01:10] <Burgundavia> but that would be dynamic
[01:10] <Amaranth> Let's do it in .desktop file format.
[01:10] <Burgundavia> sure
[01:10] <Burgundavia> need a longer description
[01:10] <Burgundavia> and a link to a image
[01:11] <Burgundavia> even repo can be figured out on the flyt
[01:11] <mvirkkil> We could add X-AppInstall-DescriptionUrl= and X-AppInstall-ScreenshotUrl=
[01:11] <mvirkkil> To the .desctop file
[01:11] <Amaranth> drop the Url bit
[01:11] <Burgundavia> I would have local descrips and images
[01:12] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: For all applications? That might be costly with universe
[01:12] <Amaranth> btw, this system needs to work without requiring packages to change anything, i'd think
[01:12] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, hmm, might be
[01:12] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, then .desktop is out
[01:13] <Burgundavia> but a simple format like it would be good
[01:13] <Amaranth> It can pull the description from the one provided.
[01:13] <Amaranth> Yeah, I'm changing my mind on .desktop files. :)
[01:13] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Why can't you use .desktop?
[01:13] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, need to change every single app
[01:13] <Amaranth> debian/control usually has a nice description, we can just pull that out
[01:13] <Amaranth> screenshots are going to be tricky
[01:13] <Burgundavia> deb is sort of nice
[01:13] <Burgundavia> need to impose some sort of rules on them though
[01:14] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: But g-a-i will come iwth it's own .desktop files?
[01:14] <Burgundavia> true
[01:14] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, just realized that
[01:14] <Amaranth> on screenshots or on descriptions?
[01:14] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, descriptions
[01:14] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, screenshots would all have to a standard size as well, but that is easy
[01:15] <Amaranth> I wonder if it'd be possible for a machine to automatically generate screenshots.
[01:15] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Sufre it would.
[01:15] <Amaranth> It's be painful for the first run, after that it shouldn't be too much of a load.
[01:15] <Burgundavia> I have looked at a script for the doc stuff
[01:15] <Burgundavia> as we maintain a lot of screenshots for our quickguide
[01:16] <Amaranth> hmm, having them autogenerated would suck
[01:16] <Amaranth> some apps don't look like much until they're doing something
[01:16] <Burgundavia> most apps can be fed some sort of cli option for a file
[01:16] <Burgundavia> a default file
[01:16] <Amaranth> I think thinking more of how I take screenshots for PyMusique.
[01:17] <Amaranth> I need to login to iTunes and run a search before taking a screenshot for it to look like anything.
[01:17] <Burgundavia> the issue is that it would need to be done every six months for the new artwork
[01:17] <Amaranth> this is why i punt :)
[01:17] <Amaranth> make the packages take the screenshots :)
[01:17] <Amaranth> err, packagers
[01:18] <Burgundavia> hmmn
[01:18] <Goshawk> mjg59, i neet to talk with you
[01:18] <Goshawk> can i query you?
[01:18] <Burgundavia> too many of our packagers are debian people
[01:18] <Burgundavia> needs to be ubuntu people
[01:18] <UbuWu> think it would be easier to make a script to download a good screenshot from the web
[01:19] <Burgundavia> UbuWu, from where and it what standard format?
[01:19] <Burgundavia> s/it/in
[01:19] <UbuWu> only as a base to start from I would suggest, but it would be possible to use google images to search for a nice screenshot
[01:20] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:20] <Burgundavia> copyright issues
[01:20] <UbuWu> that's true
[01:20] <Burgundavia> and not in the ubuntu them
[01:20] <Burgundavia> s/them/theme
[01:20] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: I'm sure main at least could get screenshot'ed and the universe team could work on universe, even if they don't finish.
[01:20] <UbuWu> hmm... you are right not a good idea
[01:20] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, main is already screenshotted
[01:20] <Amaranth> apps without screenshots would get a default "No Screenshot Available" image
[01:20] <Amaranth> well, that solves that
[01:21] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, although the theme changed on us right before the release
[01:21] <Amaranth> heh
[01:21] <Burgundavia> that is why breezy has an artwork freeze date
[01:21] <mvirkkil> How can I spawn a program with the users rights when I'm using a program sudoed?
[01:22] <Amaranth> well, you'll be doing it again for breezy anyway, might as well standardize where to put the screenshot so CnR^2 can get it :)
[01:22] <mvo> mvirkkil: there is a SUDO_USER enviroment
[01:22] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, yes
[01:22] <Amaranth> didn't sabdfl request the theme change?
[01:22] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, yep as well
[01:22] <Amaranth> and the spatial change?
[01:23] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, 3rd time lucky
[01:23] <Burgundavia> I like the theme change, just not so late
[01:23] <mvirkkil> mvo: If I'd like to spawn something from g-a-i that would run as the user who started it? What does that env contain?
[01:23] <mvirkkil> mvo: never mind. I'm stupid
[01:24] <Amaranth> ack, kick g-a-i to the curb :)
[01:24] <Amaranth> I'm thinking something searchable that shows app names as results, not package names and uses gtkmozembed to display the info
[01:24] <mvo> mvirkkil: do you want to launch a browser :) ?
[01:25] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: No matter what we are going to do, unless it's using firefox, we'll be using some of the same stuff g-a-i uses
[01:25] <mvirkkil> mvo: Thought about testing what the interface may be like. But I figure it's going to suck, so thinking about alternatives now.
[01:25] <Amaranth> yeah, but hopefully not with that UI :)
[01:26] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Please make a better one. I would _really_ appreciate good suggestions!
[01:26] <Amaranth> I just decribed the start of one.
[01:26] <Amaranth> :)
[01:26] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Please re-cap.
[01:27] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Especially how the view is split up, what buttons goes where, if there will be menues/toolbars.
[01:27] <Amaranth> You have two sections, left and right. The left side has a search input and a treeview showing the results as a list. It shows the app's name in the list, not the package name (this isn't for getting libraries). When you choose an app from the list it shows the info about it in the right pane using gtkmozembed.
[01:28] <Amaranth> I don't know about menubars or toolbars, I guess so. :)
[01:28] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: So the programs wouldn't be categorized in any way?
[01:28] <Amaranth> hmm
[01:28] <locomorto> can you do it using Python and wxWidgets?
[01:28] <Amaranth> I could do it using Python and PyGTK. :)
[01:28] <mvirkkil> locomorto: wxWidets suckk
[01:28] <locomorto> ok fine PyGTK
[01:29] <mvirkkil> (as does my spelling)
[01:29] <locomorto> i might even start laerning it agian
[01:29] <locomorto> i stopped after i could not fingure out while a simple program would NOT do what i want. It was annoying
[01:30] <Amaranth> ok, extension to this idea
[01:31] <Amaranth> the treeview is inside a notebook with a tab for browsing categories and one for searching
[01:31] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: I think using the gai interface but adding a info view to the right is plausible.
[01:31] <Amaranth> but you still have the menu structure there
[01:31] <Amaranth> which would be confusing, i think
[01:32] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: BTW my current gai version uses tabs for multiple meta categories like services, games etc. You can check out http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/old_new_appinstall.png
[01:32] <Amaranth> well, not if you followed it to it's full potential
[01:32] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Followed what?
[01:33] <Amaranth> g-a-i with an info view on the right
[01:33] <Amaranth> turn the current g-a-i into the categorized browsing i was talking about
[01:34] <Amaranth> Keybuk: auto-sync :)
[01:34] <Keybuk> yeah, I know ;p  just amused
[01:35] <mpt> mvirkkil: Is there ever any category other than "Applications"?
[01:35] <Amaranth> yay, breezy-changes finished spamming and gave me my subscription notice
[01:35] <Burgundavia> mpt, I belive they are going to add services
[01:35] <Amaranth> mpt: Well, System->Preferences and System->Administration
[01:36] <Burgundavia> mpt, you are going around the web. linux today just picked up on your blog
[01:36] <Amaranth> mpt: Your bandwidth limit has been exceeded. :P
[01:37] <mpt> oh crap
[01:37] <mpt> I meant to e-mail them today to say "yes, I'll pay whatever"
[01:37] <Amaranth> heh
[01:37] <Amaranth> $$$$$$$$$
[01:37] <Burgundavia> mpt, charge it all to canonical
[01:37] <Amaranth> wait until slashdot hits you
[01:38] <mvirkkil> mpt: Not at the moment :O)
[01:38] <Burgundavia> mpt, what do you think of gai?
[01:38] <Amaranth> ah, ask the wizard :)
[01:38] <Amaranth> mpt: You're like our tog. :)
[01:39] <mpt> Amaranth: I might be grumpy like tog, but I don't have vast experience like tog
[01:40] <mpt> Burgundavia: When I find out what gai is, I'll tell you :-D
[01:40] <Burgundavia> mpt, gnome-app-install
[01:40] <Burgundavia> mpt, we have been debating ways to make it better
[01:41] <Burgundavia> applications-->add/remove programs
[01:41] <mpt> Drag-and-drop, baby!
[01:41] <Amaranth> mpt: I've got the grumpy bit down too. :)
[01:41] <Amaranth> mpt: lmao, this isn't a mac
[01:41] <mpt> ADD OR REMOVE APPLICATIONS
[01:41] <mpt> hmmm
[01:41] <Amaranth> ?
[01:41] <mpt> I'm looking at the Hoary version
[01:41] <mpt> That heading is a little ... large?
[01:42] <Amaranth> It's all a little....large.
[01:42] <Burgundavia> to me, it 'feels wrong'
[01:42] <Amaranth> eek
[01:42] <Burgundavia> I cannot place why
[01:42] <Amaranth> if you click advanced it closes and opens synaptic
[01:42] <Amaranth> with no warning or way to get back
[01:43] <kiko> mpt!
[01:43] <Amaranth> where does it get it's data from?
[01:43] <Amaranth> on what apps show up in that list
[01:43] <mpt> kiko
[01:43] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, .desktop files from the gai package
[01:43] <mvo> Amaranth: it has a collection of .dekstop files with additional meta-data
[01:43] <kiko> how is our iconoclastic kiwi this morning
[01:43] <Amaranth> gah
[01:44] <mvirkkil> Mockup: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot.png
[01:44] <Amaranth> too bad pulling all that info from apt would be too slow
[01:44] <mpt> kiko: Not so good, I appear to have run out of bandwidth
[01:44] <mpt> kiko: And I still can't merge, but that's a story for another channel
[01:45] <Amaranth> mpt: If you have a copy somewhere I'll mirror it with a redirect to coral cache.
[01:45] <Amaranth> So I don't get charged $$$$ and it's still viewable. :)
[01:45] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: I like it! :)
[01:46] <Amaranth> or at least, i like where it's going
[01:46] <mpt> alas
[01:46] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Still think g-a-i sucks? Then we just add a search button and that would highlight the thing?
[01:46] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, nice, but I would put the desc inline along with the picture for fast browsing
[01:46] <UbuWu> there is nowhere an indication what is going to be installed after you click apply on g-a-i
[01:47] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: You can't.
[01:47] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I'm not sure I follow
[01:47] <mpt> Are we assuming that no-one would ever want to install/uninstall *everything* in a particular category?
[01:47] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, I realize you can't
[01:47] <Amaranth> mpt: More of less. I don't think anyone wants to uninstall the calculator and text editor. :)
[01:47] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, http://www.happypenguin.org/list?sort=avg_rating think like this with desriptions and images
[01:48] <Amaranth> it'd be nice if it had a list of all the packages in main, at least
[01:48] <Amaranth> dunno how it would get them, but it'd be nice
[01:48] <Amaranth> or even just all the ones that ship on the cd
[01:48] <mpt> mvirkkil: For little things, I suggest (1) changing the window title to "Add/Remove Applications", and getting rid of the header ...
[01:49] <mvirkkil> mpt: ok.
[01:49] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, that url make it clearer?
[01:49] <mpt> (2) getting rid of the "Applications" bar, assuming it's not some sort of category heading (and if it is, why isn't it just an expander open by default?)
[01:49] <Amaranth> If Advanced opens synaptic then synaptic needs a toolbar button to go back to simple
[01:50] <Amaranth> mpt: Applications bar? you mean the tabs?
[01:51] <Amaranth> wow, i have lots of typos :)
[01:53] <mpt> Amaranth: Hrmm, is the new one on the left or the right? :-)
[01:53] <mpt> the filename is "old_new" so I assumed it was left_right
[01:53] <mvirkkil> mpt: Heh. Sorry about that. It's the other way around
[01:53] <Amaranth> mpt: Drag-and-drop like on OS X would never work on Linux because Linux apps use lots of small tools together to build a full app. Static linking all of theme would be a massive waste of space.
[01:53] <Amaranth> them*
[01:54] <mpt> yeah
[01:54] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: See 0install or zero install
[01:54] <mvo> or klik.atekon.de
[01:54] <mvirkkil> Though that is different from osx
[01:54] <mpt> mvirkkil: If you're only ever going to have one tab, you shouldn't be using tabs
[01:54] <pitti> Keybuk: indeed, elmo raised the bar quite high :-)
[01:54] <Lathiat> is there some way apt can list all dpkg sections it has in its database?
[01:54] <Amaranth> "doesn't share libraries, requires a fast/always-on net connection, or whatever other misconception you've acquired about Zero Install after reading one paragraph."
[01:55] <Amaranth> hehe
[01:55] <mvirkkil> mpt: There will be more
[01:55] <Amaranth> mpt: I think we'll have more tabs.
[01:55] <mpt> ok
[01:55] <mpt> such as?
[01:55] <Amaranth> Just one for the mockup.
[01:55] <Treenaks> Amaranth: what will they be used for?
[01:56] <Amaranth> Treenaks: mvirkkil said something about services.
[01:56] <Treenaks> oh yes.. windows file sharing, etc.?
[01:56] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: "Memo runs everything it needs directly from the remote machines where they're stored" <--it'll never happen
[01:56] <mvirkkil> Games, services etc.
[01:56] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Memo=?
[01:56] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: games are already in the applications menu
[01:57] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: Their example app on the 0install page.
[01:57] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: It fetches them just like apt does and stores them locally
[01:57] <Amaranth> oh, they make it sound like it runs on the remote machine
[01:57] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Read more
[01:57] <Amaranth> this would require deb packages for all their dependencies though
[01:59] <Burgundavia> mpt, http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000251.html
[01:59] <Burgundavia> mpt, http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/index.php?p=236
[02:00] <locomorto> is there any chance we could see scheduled BT downloading in breezy?
[02:00] <Treenaks> scheduled BT downloading?
[02:01] <Treenaks> locomorto: like "Start downloading this torrent tonight at 23:00"?
[02:01] <locomorto> yes!
[02:01] <locomorto> i have offpeak unmetered traffic from 2-8am
[02:01] <mpt> Burgundavia: I saw the latter
[02:01] <Burgundavia> mpt,  interesting
[02:01] <Treenaks> locomorto: a generic "start this program then-and-then" would be nice...
[02:01] <mpt> Burgundavia: And I thought "Slow news day at ZDnet"
[02:01] <Treenaks> locomorto: (i.e. a graphical "at")
[02:02] <locomorto> i think i could do it through cron, but i was kinda hoping like you said it could be through a GUI or something geared towerds exactly that rather then writing shell scripts
[02:03] <locomorto> i dont know how to close programs with a script, only start them. Does anyone knwo how to do that?
[02:03] <Treenaks> locomorto: keep them in the background& and kill &1
[02:03] <locomorto> example?
[02:04] <Treenaks> locomorto: 1 script:
[02:04] <Treenaks> hm wait
[02:04] <Treenaks> does that work in scripts
[02:05] <mvirkkil> Amaranth, mvo, mpt: Another mockup. This time you'll have to imagine the tree and images: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot2.png
[02:05] <Amaranth> what's with the images in the top right?
[02:05] <mvirkkil> The idea is that now the info thingie is inside the ptab
[02:06] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: You still didn't incorporate mpt's ideas.
[02:06] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: I'e done that with glade. Don't worry about that.
[02:06] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Specify.
[02:06] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: lose the header and change the window title to Add/Remove Programs
[02:07] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Yes I did.
[02:07] <locomorto> whats the difference besides the names of stuff?
[02:07] <Amaranth> not in this mockup
[02:07] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: THough I see what you meant. I guess I mis understood.
[02:07] <mvirkkil> mpt?
[02:08] <mpt> mvirkkil: No panic, I was just waiting for you and Amaranth to understand each other :-)
[02:08] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: the window title (how "Application Installer")  should be "Add/Remove programs", and the words "Add/Remove programs" should disappear from the gray area
[02:09] <mvirkkil> Treenaks: Yes, I figured it out. I mis understood what mpt meant
[02:10] <Amaranth> i'm hopeless with glade otherwise I'd do some mockups :)
[02:12] <mpt> I tried making something with glade a couple of days ago
[02:12] <mpt> and for the life of me I cannot figure out how to change the header of a tab!
[02:12] <Treenaks> mpt: but you found out you have to fix the glade interface first? ;)
[02:13] <pitti> hmm, this exploit worked pretty well..
[02:14] <Treenaks> exploit?
[02:14] <d3vic3> hmm ?
[02:14] <mvo> mpt: we can have a glade bof at UDU if you want :)
[02:15] <Amaranth> making glade easier to use turns it into gazpacho :)
[02:15] <Amaranth> but gazpacho is a PITA too
[02:15] <mvo> Amaranth: is it 100% compatible with libglade now?
[02:15] <mpt> Amaranth: Eheh, I was just about to mention gazpacho, because one of their devs asked me for advice on something
[02:16] <Amaranth> mvo: Err, sure? :)
[02:16] <mvirkkil> Amaranth, mvo, mp: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot3.png
[02:16] <mvirkkil> mpt even
[02:17] <Amaranth> yay for the muine package claiming to own /usr/lib/mono!
[02:17] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, I noticed that
[02:17] <mvo> Amaranth: last time I tired it it was not able to load the synaptic glade files
[02:18] <Amaranth> mvo: how long ago was that?
[02:18] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, if you are getting that error from beagle, just install beagle and then reinstall muine
[02:18] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: beagle? where do i get that? :)
[02:18] <mvo> Amaranth: a couple of weeks, maybe two month
[02:18] <Amaranth> i'm getting it from mono-assemblies-base
[02:18] <mvirkkil> No thoughts on the gui?
[02:19] <Amaranth> libdus-cil claims /usr/lib/mono too
[02:19] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, http://beaglewiki.org/index.php/UbuntuInstall
[02:19] <Amaranth> i'm just going to force it
[02:19] <Burgundavia> works great
[02:19] <Burgundavia> sort of
[02:19] <mpt> mvirkkil: That looks fine ... My only complaints now are things that would require changes to the HIG :-)
[02:19] <mvirkkil> mpt: Cool. Like what?
[02:20] <Amaranth> so lets change the HIG :)
[02:20] <koke> hey, what do you think about http://koke.amedias.org/2005/04/14/more-stylished-bullets-for-ubuntu-website/ ??
[02:20] <Burgundavia> koke, looks good
[02:20] <Treenaks> c
[02:20] <Treenaks> uh
[02:20] <Treenaks> this is not mutt
[02:20] <Amaranth> hehe
[02:20] <koke> I'll file a bug when I have some more time :)
[02:20] <Mithrandir> no, this is IRC.  We're real-time.
[02:20] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: oh I don't change folders then? 8)
[02:20] <Amaranth> we're not archaic mail apps, sorry
[02:21] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: it's called channels.
[02:21] <Treenaks> Amaranth: mutt is archaic?
[02:21] <mpt> mvirkkil: Like getting rid of the row of buttons along the bottom, and adding menus, and ... silly stuff like that
[02:22] <Amaranth> the row of buttons on the bottom could be a toolbar
[02:22] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: I htought about that actually. Didn't look very good though.
[02:22] <Amaranth> adding menus is doable, if you can think of what the menus would be for
[02:24] <mpt> File would contain "Add", "Remove", and "Close"; Edit would contain "Undo", "Redo", "Copy", "Select All", and "Find..."; Help would contain "Help Using Add/Remove Programs" and "About"
[02:24] <Burgundavia> mpt, why do you need those things?
[02:25] <Burgundavia> mpt, there are lots of windows that gnome has that don't have those things
[02:25] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: HIG
[02:25] <Burgundavia> umm
[02:25] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: only dialogs, this is an app
[02:25] <mpt> Burgundavia: I know. That's why I said, it would be a HIG change.
[02:25] <Treenaks> mpt:  none of the "control panel" apps have a menu..
[02:25] <mpt> Treenaks: I. Know. :-)
[02:25] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, my point exactly
[02:25] <Treenaks> (s/control panel/preferences and/or system administration)
[02:25] <Burgundavia> thost are gnome created
[02:26] <mpt> Undo/Redo would probably be the most useful of the items I mentioned
[02:26] <mpt> though Find would possibly be even more useful
[02:27] <mpt> Treenaks: Give me screenshots of a non-compliant one, and I'll give you mockups of a compliant one
[02:27] <Treenaks> mpt: http://gpsdrive.kraftvoll.at/screenshots.shtml
[02:27] <pitti> doko: the new OO.o simply won't start for me
[02:27] <pitti> doko: does that work for you?
[02:27] <Treenaks> a way to save/restore a list of installed apps would probably be nice too
[02:28] <Treenaks> so you can save the list, and reload it on your new PC or something
[02:28] <mvo> Treenaks: synaptic can do that
[02:28] <pitti> darn, I have to go
[02:28] <Treenaks> mvo: then gnome-app-install can do that too :)
[02:28] <mvo> pitti: celebrating your birthday?
[02:28] <mvo> Treenaks: heh :)
[02:28] <pitti> mvo: if you meet doko, can you please ask him to check the OO.o update again? It just crashes for me
[02:28] <Treenaks> mvo: I've seen people be scared of synaptic(!)
[02:28] <pitti> mvo: yeah, sort of. Surprise from my gf
[02:29] <pitti> bye, folks
[02:29] <Treenaks> hey, it seems like the list/mailserver caught up
[02:29] <mvo> Treenaks: yeah :/
[02:30] <Treenaks> mvo: well, I don't blame them.. it's a bit overwhelming voor new users
[02:30] <mvo> Treenaks: yes. that's why we need g-a-i and/or click-n-run
[02:30] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: beagle doesn't work on breezy :P
[02:30] <dand> is there a program that shows the character set/encoding of a file (i tried /usr/bin/file with no luck)?
[02:30] <Amaranth> I guess I have to wait for a new version.
[02:31] <Treenaks> dand: uh, you could try iconv
[02:31] <Burgundavia> foolish Amaranth, stay on hoary for a while
[02:31] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: Bleh, I like danger. :)
[02:31] <Amaranth> And I'm waiting for the mono 1.1.6 packages to start rolling in so I can help work on SharpMusique.
[02:31] <Amaranth> Or at least use it to get my pepsi caps because I'm too lazy to add support to PyMusique.
[02:32] <Treenaks> Amaranth: like a colleague of mine once said about bleeding edge software: <jtv>           My edge /always/ bleeds.
[02:32] <dand> Treenaks: thanks, but iconv only converts files. anyway, i'm on the wrong channel, sorry.
[02:32] <Amaranth> Treenaks: I don't get it.
[02:32] <Burgundavia> must   have   latest   crack!!!
[02:32] <Treenaks> dand: if you only give it a "to" character set it'll convert from anything it detects
[02:32] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: Damn straight.
[02:33] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: That week of no upgrades was painful.
[02:33] <Burgundavia> I am feeling the withdrawal as well
[02:33] <Amaranth> the sid sync makes up for it though, all new crack, every 15 minutes
[02:33] <Treenaks> Amaranth: \o/
[02:34] <Treenaks> Amaranth: but it's unprocessed crack!
[02:34] <Amaranth> Treenaks: You know nothing about drugs, do you? Pure crack is better than processed. :)
[02:34] <Amaranth> processed == mixed with battery acid
[02:34] <locomorto> dont worry
[02:34] <locomorto> breezy is out now
[02:34] <Treenaks> Amaranth: I'm from the Netherlands.. I know /all/ about drugs ;)
[02:35] <locomorto> rofl
[02:35] <Treenaks> Amaranth: no processed as in cleaned up, purified ;)
[02:35] <Amaranth> oh, good processed
[02:35] <Amaranth> meh, you get it faster if you're willing to get it messy :)
[02:35] <locomorto> i know a firend from the netherlands
[02:35] <locomorto> he just got dumped
[02:35] <Amaranth> I waiting until hoary had xorg before I jumped off warty, couldn't wait that long this time.
[02:35] <Burgundavia> better crack where I live
[02:36] <locomorto> just make sure to check your bags for crack
[02:36] <mpt> Treenaks: Hmmmmmm ... Are you going to implement the compliant one? ;-)
[02:36] <locomorto> when you go on the airline
[02:36] <Treenaks> mpt: I think I might, yes.. in python
[02:36] <Treenaks> mpt: and less detail by default.. :)
[02:37] <Burgundavia> I don't think this app needs menus
[02:38] <locomorto> no
[02:38] <locomorto> just have it in one huge scroll down box
[02:38] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: you need undo/redo and/or find
[02:38] <Burgundavia> can be buttons
[02:38] <locomorto> only going to be what, 1,000+ things in it
[02:38] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: no! then you'd have 50 buttons
[02:38] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: which sucks
[02:39] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: and only a toolbar looks ugly
[02:39] <Burgundavia> nope
[02:39] <Burgundavia> three
[02:39] <Burgundavia> history
[02:39] <Burgundavia> apply
[02:39] <Burgundavia> find
[02:39] <Burgundavia> or have find ala ff
[02:39] <Burgundavia> on the button by default
[02:39] <Burgundavia> and history would be another window
[02:40] <mvirkkil> Damn. By doing mockups I'm missing the conversation :-/
[02:40] <mpt> heh
[02:40] <mvirkkil> http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot4.png
[02:41] <ross> mvirkkil: whats the gap on the right for?
[02:41] <Treenaks> mvirkkil: apply shouldn't be there.. I think
[02:41] <mvirkkil> Again you have to imagine the pretty tree view of the packages.
[02:41] <Treenaks> but I'm not an expert
[02:41] <mvirkkil> ross: Gap?
[02:41] <ross> the huge "gaim rules" pane
[02:41] <mvirkkil> Treenaks: Where would it be?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> ross, that is for package description and screenshot
[02:42] <Treenaks> ross: package descirption
[02:42] <mvirkkil> ross: Thats for the information about the package. Long description, screenshjots what ever.
[02:42] <mvirkkil> ross: You weren't here when that discussion started
[02:42] <ross> obviously not
[02:42] <Burgundavia> I still hold out that it should be inline
[02:43] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I don't understand how it wouldn't be cluttered and hard to read.
[02:43] <mpt> mvirkkil: What's the gap in the lower left? Is that a progress meter?
[02:43] <ross> can i point out that maybe the author of the software should be involved in the redesign?
[02:43] <mvirkkil> mpt: Gnome standard status panel. yes
[02:43] <kiko> where are my drugs
[02:43] <Burgundavia> ross, if you want to be
[02:43] <Burgundavia> ross, we were just kicking ideas around
[02:44] <mvirkkil> ross: We're just throwing up ideas and I'm making some mockups.
[02:44] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, looks nice though
[02:44] <Burgundavia> ross, what do you think?
[02:44] <mvirkkil> throwind around = throwing up
[02:44] <ross> i'm not convinced two panes are needed
[02:44] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: "Add/Remove Programs" :)
[02:44] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: and you need a menu :)
[02:45] <mvirkkil> ross: How would you present a long desciption and screenshots?
[02:45] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: What am I supposed to put in it?
[02:45] <Burgundavia> mvirkkil, make the P a capital
[02:45] <Amaranth> File->Quit, Edit->Find, Edit->Preferences for a start
[02:45] <ross> mvirkkil: description inline, i wouldn't have screenshots
[02:45] <mpt> mvirkkil: IMO progress meters shouldn't be visible except when they're showing progress
[02:45] <Burgundavia> mpt, true
[02:46] <mvirkkil> mpt: agree
[02:46] <zul> hey
[02:46] <Burgundavia> ross, you need screenshots to 'sell' the program
[02:46] <ross> there is no selling involved.  user wants word processor, user selects word processor
[02:46] <ross> there is no competition in ubuntu
[02:47] <Burgundavia> ross, screenshots are not that hard to make, and they do help
[02:47] <Burgundavia> ross, Ubuntu doc team already maintains a complete set for main
[02:48] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: in all languages?
[02:48] <mxpxpod> is breezy safe to use?
[02:48] <Treenaks> mxpxpod: not yet
[02:48] <mxpxpod> Treenaks: ok
[02:49] <Amaranth> mvirkkil: Why a games tab?
[02:49] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, yep, afaik
[02:50] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, I dont do that side of the doc team
[02:50] <mvirkkil> Amaranth: Why not? It's just a mockup.
[02:50] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, I think it is just showing generic categories of apps
[02:50] <Burgundavia> though I don't know that tabs are the best way to do that
[02:51] <Amaranth> by services do you mean apache, etc?
[02:51] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: No, not general categories.
[02:51] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Or sort of yes.
[02:51] <mpt> Burgundavia: Screenshots of an app window inside a help window, though? That's just weird
[02:52] <Burgundavia> mpt, why?
[02:52] <Burgundavia> mpt, it is in the much derided by you 'quickguide'
[02:52] <Burgundavia> mpt, I happen to agree that the term is misplaced
[02:53] <mvirkkil> ross: If it won't have any screenshots and the description could drop down, I think the original look was the best
[02:53] <mpt> Burgundavia: Because (1) it's unnecessarily indirect (why not just highlight the items in the actual open window?), and (2) it'll lead to people trying to click on the screenshots by mistake
[02:53] <Lathiat> mpt: your webhost needs more bandiwdth :)
[02:54] <mpt> Lathiat: Just sent in my order :-)
[02:54] <Lathiat> haha
[02:54] <Burgundavia> mpt, how else do you suggest we show people in howtos how to do something?
[02:54] <Kamion> mxpxpod: if you have to ask, it isn't. :)
[02:54] <mxpxpod> Kamion: heh, ok
[02:55] <mpt> Burgundavia: Smile sweetly at a programmer or three, and ask them to implement a way to highlight actual controls in a program's window when a button is pressed in that window's help file.
[02:55] <Burgundavia> mpt, that is a lot of programmers to smile sweetly at. My ass might get a little sore
[02:56] <mpt> Lathiat: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:5iglv1nwJosJ:mpt.net.nz/&strip=1 if you're desperate
[02:56] <Burgundavia> mpt, until then, I think I will go with screenshots
[02:56] <Burgundavia> mpt, I can do that in the breezy timeframe
[02:56] <mpt> Burgundavia: Fair enough
[02:56] <ross> there is an open bug request for gtk, with a partial patch, to make widgets glow
[02:56] <\sh> Burgundavia: vnc2swf
[02:57] <Burgundavia> \sh, translations?
[02:57] <Burgundavia> ross, cool
[02:57] <mpt> Burgundavia: Ways of lessening the problem would be (1) doing screenshots only of sections of windows, not whole windows, and (2) making them miniatures instead of full-size
[02:57] <\sh> Burgundavia: vnc 2 flash --- records vnc sessions to flash incl. live mp3 sound
[02:57] <Lathiat> mpt: haha read it ages ago :)
[02:57] <\sh> Burgundavia: nice for howtos
[02:57] <mpt> Burgundavia: Though usually not (1) and (2) simultaneously :-)
[02:58] <Burgundavia> mpt, I think we need to shrink the quickguide screenshots down for breezy
[02:58] <Burgundavia> mpt, and yes, my screenshots will not be full windows for the howtos
[02:58] <Amaranth> ross: Don't GtkNotebook tabs already "glow"?
[02:59] <mpt> Burgundavia: excellent
[02:59] <Burgundavia> mpt, we are also looking at a portal. Unfortunately, I will not be at UDU, otherwise we should talk more. I agree with 95% of what you said
[02:59] <Burgundavia> mpt, on your blog, that is
[02:59] <mpt> Burgundavia: See, another requirement of a Really Useful Help System is that it needs to be compact. More compact than yelp is by default, even. So I can have the help alongside the thing I'm doing, without having to flip between windows all the time.
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mpt, yelp is also gnome-only
[03:00] <ross> Amaranth: no
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mpt, one of the other people is looking at XUL bar for ff
[03:00] <mpt> Burgundavia: I saw that
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mpt,  and we are looking at a wiki-like interface, that ties in with our docbook/svn backend
[03:00] <mvirkkil> mpt: How about having help split the programs window in two, and show it as if it was a part of the program?
[03:01] <mvirkkil> Argh.. Have to go now. BBL
[03:01] <mpt> mvirkkil: Doesn't work if you don't have the program running ... ttyl
[03:01] <mvirkkil> mpt: True.
[03:02] <mpt> Though you could have cooperative window sizing, like in MS Works
[03:02] <mpt> i.e. when you open the help the document shunts itself out of the way
[03:02] <Burgundavia> nice: http://lwn.net/Articles/132143/
[03:02] <mpt> Sorry, not Works, Office
[03:03] <\sh> btw...toolchain rdy for breezy? compiled and rdy for use? ,->
[03:03] <Burgundavia> linspire is doing things with swf I see
[03:03] <\sh> Burgundavia: http://ubuntu.linux-server.org/ packages for vnc2swf and the ming-0.2a lib
[03:04] <\sh> Burgundavia: compiled against hoary
[03:04] <Burgundavia> \sh, can you put those up for inclusion in breezy?
[03:05] <Kamion> \sh: the toolchain's built, yes; it'll go through further changes, though (like switching to g++ 4.0)
[03:05] <\sh> Burgundavia: motunewpackages knows about my stuff :)
[03:05] <Burgundavia> \sh, good, thanks
[03:06] <\sh> Kamion: yeah...wait for all the stuff to build my things
[03:08] <\sh> wow...that was good.
[03:08] <\sh> lamacun and a dner
[03:09] <\sh> i really like turkish food
[03:11] <Burgundavia> mpt, you are on the doc list? can you give us what you think? bluesky and breezy-timeframe
[03:12] <mpt> Burgundavia: Actually that's why I signed up on the wiki page for the doc team meeting
[03:12] <Burgundavia> mpt, thanks
[03:13] <Amaranth> "an effective freeze has been imposed recently by the arm autobuilders lagging behind" <--ouch
[03:13] <Amaranth> talking about debian
[03:13] <Treenaks> and the buildd admins are too bone-headed to allow others to become buildd admins, afaik
[03:14] <Burgundavia> hmm debian politics
[03:14] <Burgundavia> makes the world go 'round and no release happen
[03:15] <jbailey> Mithrandir: you 'dere?
[03:15] <Kamion> considering many of the people involved are here too, I don't think throwing around insults is a good plan
[03:16] <jbailey> Kamion: How often does germinate-output update?
[03:16] <Mithrandir> jbailey: pong
[03:18] <jbailey> Mithrandir: amd64 libs love.  I need to do an lkh upload to keep lamont and fabionne from chewing on me, I may as well sort out 9211 at the same time.  Got a sec?
[03:18] <Kamion> jbailey: every hour, at the moment
[03:18] <Kamion> 2 * * * *               update-germinate
[03:18] <jbailey> Kamion: Nice, thanks.
[03:19] <Mithrandir> jbailey: sure
[03:20] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Why is amd64-libs-dev produced this way instead of the same way sparc64, s390x and friends are?
[03:20] <Mithrandir> jbailey: this way as in amd64-libs-dev?
[03:21] <Mithrandir> jbailey: the idea for amd64-libs-dev is it should actually be possible to write amd64 applications on ia32
[03:21] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Right.  I don't have much exposure to this, so I'm starting from the beginning. =)
[03:21] <Mithrandir> I'm not sure that's something we should really care about, so I'd be inclined just to move the file to l-k-h
[03:22] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Is the setup different from other biarch configs because amd64 is a full arch?
[03:22] <Mithrandir> jbailey: I'd think so, yes.
[03:23] <jbailey> Hmm.
[03:23] <Mithrandir> does the file differ between and64-libs-dev and l-k-h?