[04:59] <elopio> snappy-m-o autopkgtest 1647 xenial:armhf xenial:arm64
[04:59] <snappy-m-o> elopio: I've just triggered your test.
[08:04] <mup> PR snapcraft#1648 opened: sources: get svn revision with --show-item flag <Created by clobrano> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1648>
[09:55] <mup> PR snapd#4110 opened: many:  have a timestamp on store assertions <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4110>
[10:10] <mup> PR snapd#4111 opened: many: make ignore-validation sticky and send the flag with refresh requests <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4111>
[10:10]  * ogra_ really likes the new animations for download and install
[10:19]  * Chipaca is happy that ogra_ likes it
[10:29] <pedronis> Chipaca: hi
[10:30] <pedronis> Chipaca: #4111 might be something you could review when you have time
[10:30] <mup> PR #4111: many: make ignore-validation sticky and send the flag with refresh requests <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4111>
[10:35] <Chipaca> pedronis: already looking at it yes
[10:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: we still have no answer for how to turn off these flags :-(
[10:36] <Chipaca> beyond reinstalling
[10:36] <pedronis> Chipaca: snap refresh foo
[10:36] <pedronis> that's the answer Gustavo gave
[10:37] <pedronis> Chipaca: : https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/make-ignore-validation-sticky-and-send-the-flag-over/2139/2
[10:37] <Chipaca> hmmm
[10:38] <Chipaca> we're probably not doing the right thing today in a couple of places then
[10:38] <pedronis> that's also the behavior implemented by the branch
[10:38] <pedronis> and tested
[10:38] <pedronis> at least for this flag
[10:38] <pedronis> Chipaca: notice that at least for channel there's special code to do something even if there's no refresh (though for channel we also have switch)
[10:39] <pedronis> adding similar code for this is one of the TODOs
[10:40] <pedronis> Chipaca: I'm talking about this:  https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4111/files#diff-4f584006240926759b614bfd921c5fc0R938
[10:40] <mup> PR #4111: many: make ignore-validation sticky and send the flag with refresh requests <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4111>
[10:41] <pedronis> Chipaca: so I think I'm following the spec afaiu
[10:44] <Chipaca> pedronis: yeah, that 'do something in refresh when no update' is the missing bit i guess?
[10:45] <pedronis> yes
[10:45] <pedronis> but it's annoying enough that I prefer to do it in a separate PR
[10:45] <pedronis> (also we leaved without it for channels for a long while)
[10:45] <pedronis> s/leaved/lived/
[10:45] <Chipaca> pedronis: OTOH maybe it's an argument to make switch do this instead of refresh, when no update
[10:46] <pedronis> for channels we do both
[10:46] <pedronis> also I fear switch as designed is too channel specific
[10:46] <pedronis> to involve it in this
[10:47] <pedronis> anyway I personally don't see any of that as blocker to the main change
[10:47] <Chipaca> pedronis: why is switch too channel-specific?
[10:47] <pedronis> snap switch -h
[10:48] <pedronis> switch switches channel
[10:49] <pedronis> if we want it to do other flag toggling I'm not sure the name is great or it is easy to explain
[10:49] <Chipaca> pedronis: i thought you meant it would feel unnatural to use it for this, not that we'd have to change the documentation
[10:49] <Chipaca> OTOH it's true that the "strip devmode" thing doesn't work in switch
[10:49] <Chipaca> i.e. it'd have to be 'snap switch --disable-devmode thesnap'
[10:49] <Chipaca> or somesuch
[10:49] <pedronis> yea, it's not an nice UX afaict
[10:50] <pedronis> well, mostly is not a discoverable UX
[10:51] <pedronis> anyway I didn't do any of this in this PR because it has huge bikeshedding potential as you see
[10:57] <pedronis> Chipaca: I'm getting this from prepare in a test run (on 14.04):  + chattr -i /var/cache/snapd/names
[10:57] <pedronis> chattr: No such file or directory while trying to stat /var/cache/snapd/names
[11:09] <mlw> Has anyone here had an issue with cmake "finding" libGLEW.so in the wrong place. Having an issue with snapcraft unable to find it after building. Cmake config says it finds GLEW in /usr/include
[11:09] <mlw> Could anyone point me in the right direction?
[11:10] <mlw> I have the libglew-dev in my build-packages.
[11:48] <diddledan> the cmake snapcraft plugin currently doesn't add <stage>/usr/local/lib{,/x86_64-linux-gnu} to the CMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH variable, and because the var is set in the environment it isn't possible to override using -DCMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH in configflags:
[11:51] <diddledan> same for CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH and <stage>/usr/local/include
[11:52] <sergiusens> davidcalle hey, not sure how this happened, but the oldest doc in the world was revived here https://docs.snapcraft.io/build-snaps/plugins
[11:53] <diddledan> why does that page have a blurb at the bottom about yocto being owned by linux foundation? I mean what relevance is there?
[11:54] <diddledan> sergiusens: ^^^
[11:55] <diddledan> looks like it's on all the snapcraft.io pages
[11:55] <sergiusens> diddledan I don't know, I feel like I woke up in the twilight zone
[12:31] <mlw> diddledan: so I'm stuck?
[12:32] <mlw> the error I get reads
[12:32] <mlw> CMake Error at cmake_install.cmake:36 (file):
[12:32] <mlw>    file INSTALL cannot find
[12:32] <mlw>    "/home/mattias/djv/parts/cmake-build/src/$CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH:/home/mattias/stage/lib/libGLEW.so".
[12:33] <diddledan> mlw: my comment was unrelated
[12:33] <diddledan> mlw: I was mentioning my own problem
[12:34] <mlw> diddledan: ah, ignore me :)
[12:35] <diddledan> mlw: although it does look like your problem might be similar
[12:35] <mup> PR snapcraft#1649 opened: add stage/usr/local/lib to cmake library path <Created by diddledan> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1649>
[12:39] <sergiusens> stgraber jdstrand any ideas about this? "Setup snap "lxd" (4778) security profiles (cannot setup seccomp for snap "lxd": " on a travis run today -> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25864977/
[12:43]  * sergiusens goes for a walk
[13:14] <jdstrand> fatal error: runtime: address space conflict'
[13:14] <jdstrand> err
[13:14] <jdstrand> sergiusens: I don't know. I just tried on xenial with edge core and edge lxd and it worked fine. this seems to go a golang thing due to 'runtime: address space conflict: map(0xc820000000) = 0x7fc72ab24000
[13:14] <jdstrand> fatal error: runtime: address space conflict'
[13:15] <jdstrand> sergiusens: I googled that and it said something about garbage collection and heap memory. did the system oom?
[13:16] <jdstrand> sergiusens: looking at the trace, it looks like a heap allocation that failed
[13:25] <pedronis> Chipaca: I pushed my changes to #4076, it could use  a review
[13:25] <mup> PR #4076: many: handle core configuration internally instead of using the core configure hook <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4076>
[13:30] <cachio> jdstrand, hey, I am creating a test for desktop interface and I can access the /etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf and .defaults
[13:30] <cachio> jdstrand, I see this https://paste.ubuntu.com/25865263/
[13:31] <cachio> jdstrand, I can access to the rest of the files
[13:31] <cachio> jdstrand, not sure if I need to do something else
[13:34] <jdstrand> cachio: I'm confused. you can access the files but you have denials?
[13:34] <jdstrand> cachio: I can say that we started to allow those files with a recent 2.29 and master PR
[13:34] <cachio> jdstrand, no, I getr permission denied
[13:35] <cachio> jdstrand, I am able to access to the rest of the files and dirs allowed by the interface
[13:35] <jdstrand> cachio: are you on 2.28?
[13:35] <cachio> in master
[13:36] <cachio> jdstrand, I am creating a new test to validate the desktop interface on master
[13:36] <jdstrand> that doesn't make sense. I'm looking at master now and the files are in there
[13:36] <cachio> jdstrand, yes, I did the same
[13:36] <jdstrand> cachio: can you paste /var/lib/snapd/apparmor/profiles/snap.test-snapd-desktop.testdesktop?
[13:37] <cachio> jdstrand, https://paste.ubuntu.com/25865301/
[13:38] <cachio> jdstrand, I have installed 2.28.5
[13:38] <cachio> is it included on this one?
[13:39] <jdstrand> cachio: that file doesn't have the rules
[13:39] <jdstrand> cachio: no. it is in 2.29 and higher
[13:39] <cachio>  jdstrand, well, that's the reason :)
[13:39] <jdstrand> indeed :)
[13:39] <cachio> I'll update
[13:40] <cachio> jdstrand, hanks and sorry
[13:40] <cachio> thanks
[13:40] <jdstrand> np
[13:53] <stgraber> sergiusens: ouch, never seen that before, that's one very unhappy snapd
[14:10] <sergiusens> jdstrand the log is all the info I have, this is travis on trusty
[14:10] <hurricanehrndz> How do you run a search against all the channels?
[14:10] <sergiusens> seems to have been a one time thing, luckily
[14:10] <Chipaca> hurricanehrndz: you can't
[14:11] <Chipaca> hurricanehrndz: why do you want to do that?
[14:13] <hurricanehrndz> Chipaca: Why wouldn't I, There is no snapcraft on openSUSE and I would like to use it. I know it is in the candiate channel, but I know that because I ran a search on reddit, I find it very unproductive to have to go to browser in order to find snaps
[14:14] <hurricanehrndz> Chipaca: so now I'm wondering what other snaps are available on the other channels that I could make use of, but have no way to index
[14:15] <pedronis> hurricanehrndz:  but snap info snapcraft   tells that
[14:15] <hurricanehrndz> Oh, didn't know
[14:16] <hurricanehrndz> That's what I was looking for, I think. Let me try
[14:17] <hurricanehrndz> pedronis: Info only helps, if I know the snap exists
[14:17] <pedronis> this works if you know the name of the snap,  but in general is not a good idea to use not stable snaps you don't know about
[14:18] <pedronis> hurricanehrndz: that's a bit by design currently, if a snap is not stable, is not advertized, but can be used  (install, info etc) if one knows about it
[14:18] <hurricanehrndz> pedronis: I'm a dev, so I'm okay with being on cutting edge. It just seems that find should have an option to search across all channels
[14:19] <hurricanehrndz> pedronis: is there any plans to bring snapcraft to other platforms?
[14:20] <hurricanehrndz> Or is a snap of snapcraft the plan?
[14:20] <Chipaca> hurricanehrndz: that's a question for sergiusens i think
[14:21] <hurricanehrndz> sergiusens: Do you know if there are plans to bring snapcraft to other distros
[14:23] <hurricanehrndz> Thanks for all the guidance guys! :)
[14:24] <sergiusens> hurricanehrndz it is a snap, so if snaps work their, it could potentially work, like all debian based distros should be ok; snapcraft with cleanbuild or persistent containers if not
[14:24] <sergiusens> that said, if you want something like Fedora, we are waiting on Son_Goku ;-)
[14:24] <Son_Goku> wait what?
[14:24] <Son_Goku> sergiusens: what am I being dragged into now?
[14:24] <sergiusens> btw, 2.35 is going to be the one that makes it to stable
[14:25] <sergiusens> Son_Goku dnf?
[14:25] <sergiusens> dnf in snapcraft that is
[14:25] <Son_Goku> oh, you mean RPM support for snapcraft
[14:25] <Son_Goku> yeah, I need to make time to hack on it again
[14:25] <Son_Goku> I've been bombarded with all kinds of stuff lately
[14:28] <sergiusens> Son_Goku yeah, exactly that, and no worries
[14:28] <Son_Goku> hurricanehrndz: I'm working on Fedora/openSUSE support for snapcraft, it's just taking some time
[14:28] <Son_Goku> unlike most folks here, I'm doing this in my free time, so it's not moving as fast as I'd like it to
[14:28] <sergiusens> elopio and kyrofa are you around for a quick hangout?
[14:28] <Son_Goku> I took a break last weekend to just play video games and do nothing else
[14:28] <Son_Goku> Super Mario Odyssey was awesome
[14:29] <sergiusens> Son_Goku heh, some of the things that get done are done in my free time as well but I totally get you as I am not context switching ;-)
[14:29] <sergiusens> Son_Goku I noticed that SMO took some priority over what is considered free time
[14:30] <Son_Goku> the last four weekends were spent working
[14:30] <Son_Goku> I was exhausted
[14:30] <Son_Goku> like, for $DAYJOB
[14:31] <Son_Goku> sergiusens: as for snapcraft cleanbuild, kyrofa has to start packaging lxd for Fedora now ;)
[14:31] <Son_Goku> I fulfilled my end of the bargain and made the selinux policy work with lxd, now we just need lxd in Fedora itself
[14:32] <sergiusens> Son_Goku just snap install lxd on fedora!
[14:32] <Son_Goku> the snap doesn't integrate with our selinux policy
[14:32] <Son_Goku> so things break
[14:32] <Son_Goku> I don't recall if stgraber fixed it, but it was still broken last I checked
[14:33] <Son_Goku> which admittedly, was a few weeks ago
[14:36] <hurricanehrndz> sergiusens: Nope not fedora, openSUSE
[14:36] <hurricanehrndz> sergiusens: Thank you though
[14:36] <hurricanehrndz> Son_Goku: If you need help let me know
[14:37] <hurricanehrndz> Son_Goku: Thanks for all your hard work, it means a lot to all of use that are on RPM based distros
[14:38] <hurricanehrndz> Son_Goku: Good for you taking a break, I know the feeling of needing a breather. It has been awhile for me, he he.  Will be ready in 15.
[14:53] <kyrofa> sergiusens, elopio sorry, late start today, I'm around now
[14:57] <kyrofa> I have coffee roasting though
[15:01] <sergiusens> kyrofa elopio ok, let's join when the clock hits 10, on the weekly one
[15:01] <elopio> I'm ready
[15:04] <elopio> Ack
[15:05] <jdstrand> sergiusens: it seems something unrelated to snappy. my guess is memory pressure
[15:11] <kyrofa> Sorry guys, just finished up the coffee, joining now
[15:12] <kyrofa> elopio, sergiusens darn, was it that quick? :P
[15:15] <elopio> kyrofa: where are you?
[15:15] <sergiusens> kyrofa we are talking still
[15:15] <elopio> wrong hangout?
[15:16] <kyrofa> What the heck... weekly right? I was the only one there
[15:16] <kyrofa> Trying again
[15:36] <om26er> Hi! re: docker snap, seems when I delete my containers and images the disk space is never freed.
[16:03] <cory_fu> Are the build.snapcraft.io builders backed up or something?  I've been waiting all morning for a build of charm-tools so that I can do a release.
[16:03] <om26er> cory_fu: I learned yesterday that builders are busy when gates for new Ubuntu release open.
[16:04] <om26er> my build started at like 12AM last night.
[16:04] <cory_fu> Ah, I see.  That makes sense
[16:08] <mup> PR snapcraft#1647 closed: lxd: better surfacing of errors <bug> <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1647>
[16:25] <kyrofa> Haha, oh darn, I was testing that PR. Apparently I can only approve OPEN ones
[16:26] <kyrofa> +1 anyway
[16:27] <diddledan> has snapd lost it's newly inbuilt xdg-open support again?
[16:27] <diddledan> snapd   2.28.5+17.10
[16:27] <mup> PR snapd#4112 opened: cmd/snap,client,daemon: show ignore-validation if set in snap info <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4112>
[16:27] <diddledan> Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name com.canonical.SafeLauncher was not provided by any .service files
[16:28] <diddledan> from dpkg -l : ii  snapd-xdg-open                                                   2.28.5+17.10                                amd64        Transitional package for snapd-xdg-open
[16:30] <diddledan> weird. some apps can launch urls fine but one specific one (djv_view that I've been working with mlw to snap) can't
[16:31] <diddledan> oh wait. it's a file:// url
[16:31] <diddledan> bah
[16:32] <diddledan> not supporting mailto: and file: urls is painful
[16:43] <Chipaca> diddledan: raise it in the forum?
[16:45] <diddledan> I thought I had. search isn't showing me the thread tho
[16:49] <kyrofa> The forum search does that
[16:49] <diddledan> why?! seems a bit backwards for a "find the thing you're after" to not show the thing you're after
[16:50] <kyrofa> diddledan, haha, I'm just being mean. I just mean to say it doesn't cooperate with me either
[16:50] <diddledan> aye, I've noticed it on several different times I've tried finding my previous posts
[16:51] <Chipaca> diddledan: i didn't understand it until i tried to read one of the longer topics
[16:51] <Chipaca> there, it's exactly what i wanted
[16:51] <Chipaca> so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[18:22] <sergiusens> I need to relocate, internet is down
[19:11] <gsilvapt> hello all
[19:11] <gsilvapt> elopio, you around?
[19:45] <mup> PR snapcraft#1650 opened: Release changelog for 2.35 <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1650>
[19:48] <sergiusens> elopio kyrofa ^
[20:32] <kyrofa> sergiusens, elopio, ament is finally all green! Means autopkgtest is promising
[20:33] <kyrofa> sergiusens, once we get this release out the door, would you mind giving snapcraft#1636 a priority? I'm seeing more people wanting to run on trusty
[20:33] <mup> PR snapcraft#1636: internal: more gracefully determine host OS <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1636>
[20:39] <sergiusens> kyrofa hmm, maybe we should get that one in now if it allows trusty, that is a big win. Is it green green?
[20:39] <kyrofa> sergiusens, no autopkgtests have run there, but I can run them if we can spare the resources
[20:40] <sergiusens> kyrofa we will only do trusty as a snap though
[20:40] <kyrofa> sergiusens, of course
[20:40] <elopio> gsilvapt: hello
[20:40] <kyrofa> sergiusens, I'd also like to write some spread tests for it
[20:40] <kyrofa> sergiusens, but I was able to build a ROS snap with it
[20:40] <sergiusens> kyrofa for which we can just enable a new runner on our travis matrix to run the same suite without lxd
[20:41] <kyrofa> Oh that's a good idea, assuming you're talking about the integration suite
[20:41] <kyrofa> Although that will roughly double our PR test time...
[20:41] <kyrofa> Nightly?
[20:42] <kyrofa> It also assumes the testing deps we have work on trusty
[20:42] <kyrofa> I can test that out
[20:43] <kyrofa> Eh... no that won't work. That will pull all deps from trusty, which I bet won't work for some of our tests
[20:45] <sergiusens> kyrofa don't do it now ;-)
[20:45] <sergiusens> for later
[20:46] <kyrofa> Sounds good
[20:46] <sergiusens> kyrofa ugh, you updated the branch, I was about to merge
[20:46] <sergiusens> oh well... this gives some time for elopio to review
[20:46] <kyrofa> sergiusens, you still can if you're comfortable with it, results in the same thing, but yeah that's fine too
[20:47] <kyrofa> I'm retesting it here anyway, a few different things have landed that should make this the last one for trusty, just verifying now
[20:51] <sergiusens> kyrofa ok
[20:54] <kyrofa> sergiusens, in the release notes, let's make sure we call it "initial/experimental support" :P
[20:54] <kyrofa> Then we can build up our suite of tests to gain confidence
[20:54] <sergiusens> kyrofa oh, a first release of anything is that, right?
[20:54] <kyrofa> Haha, totally
[21:11] <kyrofa> sergiusens, built the snap, works great for both the opencv demo as well as the ros-talker-listener integration test (indigo, which is one of the main use-cases for this). Green light on that front
[21:11] <kyrofa> i.e. this is indeed the final PR for trusty support
[21:15] <sergiusens> kyrofa great
[21:40] <kyrofa> sergiusens, it doesn't look like the nodejs plugin ever runs `yarn install` if the package manager is yarn, right?
[21:41] <sergiusens> kyrofa why do you ask?
[21:41] <sergiusens> it is very different in the refactor
[21:42] <sergiusens> but yarn install doesn't do the same as npm install
[21:42] <kyrofa> sergiusens, while I'm waiting for tests to run I'm trying my first nodejs snap, who's build directions are given as yarn install && yarn run start
[21:43] <kyrofa> It's not building without any options, so I've been taking a closer look at the plugin
[21:43] <sergiusens> kyrofa oh, maybe let m give you the refactor
[21:44] <sergiusens> kyrofa look at my nodejs-refactor branch
[21:44] <kyrofa> sergiusens, trying it out now, thanks!
[21:44] <sergiusens> kyrofa this reminds me about `source: .` ... that needs to leave the world as the default
[21:56] <kyrofa> sergiusens, that works way better, although trying to use the tarball created by npm pack isn't working, I'll poke at that
[21:56] <kyrofa> (it doesn't seem to exist, although pack seemed to succeed)
[21:56] <mwhudson> so uh why do we not have snapd for trusty/{arm64,ppc64el}? is this something you should be talked to your local golang maintainer about?
[22:01] <kyrofa> mwhudson, probably worth a forum post, I suspect all the snapd folks are long gone for the day
[22:04] <kyrofa> sergiusens, the tarball doesn't include a 'v' in the version
[22:04] <kyrofa> At least, not this one
[22:05] <kyrofa> sergiusens, the package.json includes a v, but the tarball doesn't
[22:05] <mwhudson> kyrofa: yeah i guess although i've rolled back my concern another level :)
[22:27] <mup> PR snapcraft#1636 closed: internal: more gracefully determine host OS <bug> <Created by kyrofa> <Merged by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1636>
[22:35] <mup> PR snapd#4113 opened: tests: test for desktop interface <Created by sergiocazzolato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4113>
[22:51] <kyrofa> elopio, ping on bug #1693058
[22:51] <mup> Bug #1693058: can't install a snap with ca-certificates-java as a build-package <recording> <regression> <Snapcraft:Triaged by elopio> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1693058>
[23:00] <kyrofa> sergiusens, when you're able, could you take a look at bug #1724972 ? I swear I remember running into that before, but my memory is so hazy. Any chance you remember?
[23:00] <mup> Bug #1724972: lib* files in $SNAP/usr/lib/ links to /usr/lib/ <iot> <snap> <Snapcraft:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724972>
[23:01] <kyrofa> I thought we fixed stuff like that in the repo
[23:02] <kyrofa> Oh interesting-- that file should be filtered out completey
[23:03] <kyrofa> Oh nevermind. That's just crawling
[23:07] <elopio> kyrofa: pong, closed
[23:07] <kyrofa> elopio, yay \o/
[23:33] <kyrofa> sergiusens, elopio you'll never believe it, but snapcraft#1607 is green
[23:33] <mup> PR snapcraft#1607: python plugin: use extracted pip <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1607>
[23:33] <elopio> ^_^
[23:33] <kyrofa> Note that I've not completely solved the problem, and while it is still a problem, it was a red herring that wasted a ton of time
[23:34] <kyrofa> During review, I made a change that happened to cause an integration test to fail. However, instead of showing us that failure, unittest barfed with the exception we all know and love
[23:35] <kyrofa> Now that the tests no longer actually fail, unittest isn't dying
[23:35] <kyrofa> I'm still investigating why unittest is breaking this way on Travis, but it's no longer blocking this branch
[23:36] <kyrofa> Until I figure out what's happening, if you see this exception, it means the tests are failing and need to be run locally


[22:52] <jphilips> hi all, come someone assist me with registering #ubuntu-testers
[22:54] <Unit193> jphilips: Perhaps first take a look at #ubuntu-quality?
[22:55] <jphilips> Unit193: its blank
[22:56] <Unit193> "Blank"?
[22:57] <jphilips> it added the question mark when i joined it :D
[22:58] <valorie>  use /j #ubuntu-quality
[22:58] <Unit193> That used to be channel 27 on my other connection, I don't remember why it no longer is.
[22:59] <valorie> jphilips: I think Unit193 is suggesting that you use the channel we already have
[22:59]  * valorie didn't know about that chan
[22:59] <Unit193> There used to be both #ubuntu-testing and #ubuntu-quality, but the former got folded into the latter.
[23:00] <jphilips> valorie: yes i had joined it after i saw the mistake with the '?' added to the end of the channel
[23:00] <valorie> :-)
[23:00] <valorie> that's already all set up with logging, etc.
[23:00] <jphilips> okay great, we already have a suitable channel, so i'll go with that :D
[23:00] <jphilips> thanks Unit193
[23:01] <valorie> bridging does not need to be done to an indentically named chan/room/etc.
[23:01] <valorie> identically
[23:01] <valorie> sheesh, too much typing today
[23:01] <Unit193> jphilips: Happy to help.
[23:02] <jphilips> valorie: definitely doesnt have to, just assumed there wasnt one :D
[23:02] <jphilips> though the channel i was setting up was just for ISO testing
[23:03] <Unit193> That's what -testing was, but found out they didn't need two channels because there wasn't the traffic for it.
[23:03] <valorie> I assume that quality chan will be happy with iso testing
[23:03] <valorie> all hands on deck esp. for an LTS
[23:04] <valorie> jphilips: you might find some willing people in #ubuntu+1
[23:05] <Unit193> Generally a decent channel to hang out in, that's the -next support channel.
[23:06] <jphilips> valorie: will add it to the google doc, please add any others you can think of there
[23:06] <jphilips> have a good night everyone
[23:06] <valorie> ok, but quite busy with gsoc right now
[23:06] <valorie> niters


[18:07] <smoser> rharper: https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/344546 is ready
[18:07] <smoser> i'll look at yours now
[18:23] <rharper> smoser: reviewing
[19:01] <rharper> smoser: reviewed, and i've updated my detect branch with your changes
[19:11] <smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/FWkpmcPRpB/
[19:11] <mgerdts> What amount of begging do I need to do to get my fixes into trusty?  rmadison tells me that trusty is stuck at 0.7.5.
[19:11] <smoser> rharper: ^
[19:11] <rharper> whoa
[19:12] <smoser> my ^ was for the pastebin there
[19:12] <rharper> heh
[19:12] <rharper> ok
[19:12] <smoser> mgerdts: trusty though..
[19:12] <rharper> mgerdts: drops a bomb on release day no less =)
[19:12] <mgerdts> sorry. :-)
[19:12] <rharper> nah
[19:12] <smoser> its going to remain stuck at 0.7.5... we'd have to do a SRU and cherry pick your changes.
[19:12] <rharper> it's a fair question
[19:12] <dpb1> at least he didn't ask that in #ubuntu-release
[19:12] <smoser> i'd support helping you out there if you wanted to
[19:12] <dpb1> :)
[19:12] <rharper> dpb1: lol
[19:13] <rharper> smoser: re paste, can I just take your test_util. change?  I think I've just pushed the others
[19:13] <smoser> ie, if you want to get your datasource into a state your happy with and propose a merge to trusty, i'd be willing to help.
[19:13] <mgerdts> If you can shine a light down the right path, I'm happy to wander down it.
[19:14] <mgerdts> ok.  I have a couple more changes that are pending.
[19:14] <smoser> rharper: probably yeah. as in i dont need you to take exactly my changes in the test cases if you have the same.
[19:14] <rharper> ok, I do
[19:14] <mgerdts> We need to figure out what to do about the post-first-boot network configuration.  That bit one of our early adopters this week.
[19:14]  * rharper notices we have tests/unittests/test_util.py and cloudinit/tests/test_utils.py
[19:15] <mgerdts> Deployed a VM, booted once, then added a network.  Was surprised it didn't work.
[19:15] <smoser> yeah, cloudinit/tests/ is new
[19:15] <smoser> and the preferred path to add things too
[19:16] <rharper> I thought that was for new files, but I guess we'll never migrate if we don't start putting stuff there
[19:18] <smoser> mgerdts: so... going down the trusty path
[19:18] <smoser> the first thing to do would be to checkout ubuntu/trusty
[19:20] <smoser> then in order to  make changes, you have to do the debian/patches route.
[19:21] <mgerdts> ok, that path seems to be lit well enough for me to get started.
[19:24] <smoser> mgerdts: get code into a state your happy with, and then bug me, and i can help with the sort of busywork that it will entail
[19:24] <mgerdts> sounds good.  I'll pick that up after my last two changes are are settled.
[19:24] <mgerdts> Happy release day, btw.
[19:27] <smoser> rharper: you'll push the udevadm_settle tests on top ther e?
[19:28] <rharper> did I not ?
[19:28] <rharper> ah, tox is done
[19:28] <rharper> now I'll push
[19:29] <rharper> smoser: it's there now was waiting on tox to finish
[19:29] <smoser> k
[19:30] <smoser> rharper: you've done some actual test with the code path ?
[19:31] <rharper> I've not revalidated with the refactor of calling util.udevadm_settle() vs subp([udevadm, settle])
[19:31] <rharper> I can fire that up if you like
[19:32] <rharper> smoser: ^
[19:32] <smoser> well before we upload it to bionci lets have *some* run :)
[19:32] <rharper> ok
[19:32] <rharper> do you want to land and we push a trunk package into some instances ?
[19:32] <rharper> or would you prefer a positive test on gce before landing with the current branch ?
[19:32] <rharper> it won't take long either way
[19:32] <dpb1> some run or some fun?
[19:33] <smoser> well, just make sure not obviously broken. build a deb, install it, run some reboots.
[19:34] <rharper> k
[20:05] <rharper> ok, I've got two instances in reboot loop on europe-west1;  hoping to catch a positive detection and a handful of continuously successful reboots with networking.
[20:08] <paulmey> Hi all, I have a bug and MP for the NTFS mounting issues we've seen on RHEL when using cloud init on Azure: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1767002 and https://code.launchpad.net/~paul-meyer/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/344538
[20:09] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1767002 in cloud-init "When stop(deallocate) and then start a RHEL 7.5 VM, cloud-init cannot mount /dev/sdb1 to /mnt." [Undecided,New]
[20:09] <paulmey> When you have time, PTAL and let me know what you need...
[20:10] <paulmey> this is blocking RH from supporting cloud-init on Azure...
[20:14] <rharper> paulmey: isn't that kernel missing the ntfs module or possible the mount tools?
[20:15] <rharper> we have ntfs-3g package installed on ubuntu
[20:15] <paulmey> probably, but neither RH or SUSE want anything to do with NTFS
[20:15] <rharper> and of course ntfs kernel module loaded
[20:15] <paulmey> (for good reasons)
[20:15] <rharper> so, what's the alternative? isn't that what you format the filesystem with on azure ?
[20:16] <paulmey> way back when animals could still talk, Microsoft thought that they would only ever host Windows
[20:16] <paulmey> so they 'prepare' the ephemeral drive by partitioning and formatting it NTFS and putting some files on it to warn for data loss
[20:17] <rharper> but this is part of how one can detect whether the disk is "new" or not, right ?
[20:17] <paulmey> cloud-init uses that to detect a 'freshly prepared' ephemeral drive before nuking it and putting ext4 on there, because ntfs is silly
[20:17] <rharper> so I don't think it's so easy to ignore
[20:17] <rharper> for sure, but users could have put something on it
[20:17] <rharper> and we don't want to lightly nuke data
[20:18] <paulmey> not on RHEL or SUSE they can't
[20:18] <paulmey> because they have no way of mounting  it
[20:18] <rharper> ok, then we'll need some distro related override here
[20:19] <paulmey> alternatively, I was thinking of making this a datasource config flag? (whether or not to ignore mount errors)
[20:19] <paulmey> but as you say, we could also have this as a flag on the distro class
[20:20] <paulmey> or even move the method to the distro class?
[20:21] <paulmey> if its datasource config, RHEL and SUSE can bake the config in their images ...
[20:24] <rharper> the datasource get's a distro object
[20:24] <rharper> so you can just ask distro.name
[20:25] <rharper> s/ask/use
[20:25] <paulmey> :-) ok, so then if RHEL or SUSE, ignore errors?
[20:26] <paulmey> errors being this specific 'NTFS not supported' error
[20:26] <smoser> paulmey: can you look in /proc/filesystesm ?
[20:26] <smoser> rather than going by distro?
[20:26] <paulmey> not really
[20:26] <smoser> or did i tell you not to do that :)
[20:26] <paulmey> because if the module is not loaded, it doesn't show up there yet
[20:27] <paulmey> also, I think some distros now mount ntfs via fuse
[20:27] <smoser> oh. hm.
[20:29] <paulmey> When I get time, I'll go and fix my time machine, go back to when animals could still speak and then tell MS that they are also going to run Linux on their cloud (duh) and that they should just attach a raw disk... let the OS do the preparation
[20:29] <rharper> lol
[20:30] <paulmey> *sigh*
[20:30] <rharper> smoser: I've not had the gce instances trip down the udevadm settle path yet; but I've 20 reboots on the branch just fine
[20:30] <smoser> :)
[20:30] <smoser> ok. lets land taht.
[20:31] <paulmey> do you need some time to think on this bug/MP?
[20:32] <rharper> smoser: ok
[20:34] <smoser> i'm landing it.
[20:34] <smoser> i just updated the sl bug with some info (and the ticket)
[20:36] <rharper> k
[20:42] <rharper> smoser: should I make a bionic upload branch then? is everything in master ?
[20:47] <paulmey> rharper: smoser: are you happy with switching the 'ignore' behavior on the distro name? If so, I'll make that change in the MP
[20:48] <rharper> paulmey: my preference would be to also check if it wasn't possible; like no kernel module and no tools;
[20:48] <rharper> that woudl be slightly better in case someone rolls their own
[21:37] <rharper> smoser: I've landed your ibmcloud branch, and I've put up a MP for master into ubuntu/devel, https://code.launchpad.net/~raharper/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/344560
[23:00] <paulmey> rharper: is there a good way to check that then?
[23:38] <paulmey> rharper: plus, isn't 'mount' the ultimate authority on whether or not it is possible? Available modules should be loaded automatically, correct?
[23:39] <paulmey> the current MP tries to mount and only ignores the error when mount says it can't because ntfs is not supported
[23:40] <paulmey> what else should I check on top of mount's fstype=auto logic?


[01:04] <dmcglone> Hi all :-)
[01:04] <dmcglone> Anybody have experience with ndiswrapper?
[01:05] <Unit193> dmcglone: Nope. PM Cheri703
[01:05] <Cheri703> o/
[01:05] <Unit193> dmcglone: DO IT! DO IT NOW!!  Nice name, now I'm hungary
[02:52] <Unit193> Cheri703: Howdy!
[02:52] <Cheri703> how's it going?
[02:52] <Unit193> Useless PM?
[02:53] <dmcglone1> No enthusiastic "Howdy" for me Unit193? ;-)
[02:53] <Unit193> dmcglone1: Already got you
[02:53] <dmcglone1> LOL
[02:53] <Unit193> Er... No, just a crazy man thing...
[02:53] <dmcglone1> No you got dmcglone, this is dmcglone1
[02:53] <Unit193> Howja!
[02:53] <dmcglone1> LOL
[02:54] <Cheri703> nah Unit193, productive pm session :)
[02:54] <dmcglone1> dang that pizza name got me all hungry now!
[02:55] <dmcglone1> Well I know one thing, I'm happy to be back home
[02:57] <Unit193> Congrats dmcglone1 , dmcglone
[02:57] <Unit193> Cheri703: Eh? I can't do that one...
[02:57] <dmcglone1> Congrats for what? making it home alive? LOL
[02:58] <Unit193> Did I assume too much?
[02:58] <dmcglone1> Whooo hooo I didn't get eaten by sharks.. LOL
[02:59] <dmcglone1> Nah, My wife drove for about 3 hours of the drive until I had to take over. She made it from SC to Winston-Salem NC. I had to drive the rest of the way.
[03:01] <dmcglone1> I watched DVD's while I drove so that helped pass time quicker
[03:04] <dmcglone1> Whats everyone think about that Casey Anthony?
[03:05] <dmcglone1> All I know is they found her not guilty.
[03:06] <Unit193> Cheri703: Er... I was asking if ye mind one
[03:06] <Cheri703> oh, have at it :)
[03:17] <dmcglone1> I'm off to bed. Night all :-)
[03:17] <Unit193> Adios!
[16:31]  * skellat waves
[16:40] <Cheri703> o/


[01:55] <nhaines> Meetings?
[02:03] <pleia2> o/
[02:03] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[02:03] <darthrobot> Meeting started Mon Sep 22 02:03:09 2014 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[02:03] <darthrobot> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[02:03] <pleia2> who all is here for the meeting?
[02:03] <nhaines> I'm mostly just keeping an eye on it.  :)
[02:04] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14September21
[02:04] <darthrobot> Title: [CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14September21 - Ubuntu Wiki]
[02:04] <pleia2> agenda, empty ;)
[02:05] <pleia2> SFSU had a software freedom day event on Thursday, some pictures: https://twitter.com/SFStateCommons/status/512658985002881024
[02:05] <darthrobot> Title: [Commons at SF State on Twitter: "Software Freedom Day 2014 at #SFSU. http://t.co/YSrcTchYa0"]
[02:05] <pleia2> a sharp eye will notice some Ubuntu DVDs ;)
[02:06] <pleia2> I think we found out a bit too late for any team members to head over, I gave Sameer the disks last month
[02:06] <nhaines> I wasn't aware that OpenDisc was still a thing.
[02:06] <pleia2> jyo has reached out to at least one possible venue for SF 14.10 release, so that's chugging along
[02:07] <pleia2> (I'll be out of town)
[02:08] <pleia2> I think that's all I had
[02:08] <nhaines> OCLUG might be doing an installfest in December.  They had some scheduling issues with their venue and want to reschedule presentations before then--installfests take up their entire meeting time.  :)
[02:08] <pleia2> cool
[02:08] <nhaines> I'm also trying to convince some of them to help out with the Ubuntu booth.
[02:08] <pleia2> at scale?
[02:08] <nhaines> That'd be the the booth at SCALE.
[02:08] <nhaines> Yep.
[02:09] <pleia2> call for papers for scale is open now: https://www.socallinuxexpo.org/cfp
[02:09] <darthrobot> Title: [Call for Papers | SCALE 13x]
[02:10] <nhaines> I'd like to organize the SCALE booth this year.
[02:10] <pleia2> :D
[02:10] <pleia2> I'm not sure if I'll be going
[02:11] <nhaines> Aww.  But I need you, Phillip, and José to sign my Ubuntu book so that it can go on ebay^W^W^W^Whas more sentimental value to me.
[02:11] <pleia2> haha
[02:11] <DonkeyHotei> i finally upgraded my main machine from precise to trusty, and the hiccups are really annoying me
[02:12] <pleia2> anything else team wise before we wrap up?
[02:12] <DonkeyHotei> will there be conference packs for scale?
[02:13] <pleia2> we'll request the standard one from Canonical
[02:14] <nhaines> I don't have anything else.  Other than that I'm going to try to put together a talk for SCALE.
[02:14] <nhaines> Nothing like a chance to push my book.  ;)
[02:14] <pleia2> \o/
[02:14] <DonkeyHotei> at this point i don't expect to be able to afford parking let alone accommodations
[02:14] <nhaines> Also, I'm going to try to get extra discs for SCALE.
[02:14] <pleia2> good idea
[02:15] <nhaines> It's huge.  I think we can sneak in a community reimbursement request.
[02:15] <pleia2> I'll make sure some copies of The Ubuntu Book make it down, will send them down with someone if I don't go
[02:15] <pleia2> yeah
[02:15] <nhaines> (Also maybe a Meizu MX4 with Ubuntu... well, I can *ask*)
[02:15] <pleia2> hehe
[02:15] <pleia2> I hear getting them in the US won't be simple
[02:15] <pleia2> alas
[02:15] <DonkeyHotei> what's a meizu?
[02:16] <pleia2> a phone
[02:16] <nhaines> I heard it'd was just an online order like anything else.
[02:16] <DonkeyHotei> ah
[02:16] <pleia2> that would be nice
[02:16] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: phone manufacturer.  Along with BQ Reader, the first two commercial Ubuntu phone partnerse.
[02:16] <nhaines> We'll see.  MX4 Ubuntu preorders start on Thursday and phones ship in December.
[02:16]  * pleia2 nods
[02:17] <DonkeyHotei> i'd want a phone with a physical keyboard AND a physical dialpad
[02:17] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: there are tons.
[02:18] <pleia2> ok, thanks for coming nhaines and DonkeyHotei :)
[02:18] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[02:18] <darthrobot> Meeting ended Mon Sep 22 02:18:16 2014 UTC.
[02:18] <darthrobot> Minutes:        http://ihas.5cat.com/~darthrobot/ubuntu-us-ca/2014/ubuntu-us-ca.2014-09-22-02.03.moin.txt
[02:18] <DonkeyHotei> i've never heard of even one
[02:18] <nhaines> \o/
[02:18] <pleia2> puppetconf festivities begin tonight, oof
[02:18] <pleia2> I should probably get dressed and be social
[02:19] <nhaines> The price we pay for fame.  :)
[02:19] <pleia2> lol
[02:19] <pleia2> considering become a recluse
[02:20] <nhaines> You do save on gas.  And coats.
[02:20] <pleia2> might add an aire of mystery
[02:20] <akk> You get invited to far fewer events that way, though.
[02:21] <pleia2> that's the point! :)
[02:21] <pleia2> ok, time to find food before socialness
[02:22] <nhaines> Enjoy!  I recommend heavy, fried foods.
[02:22] <rww> o/
[02:22] <nhaines> All the better to excuse yourself from socialness later when you feel tired.
[02:23]  * nhaines also just recommends the occasional heavy, fried food on general principle.
[02:25] <DonkeyHotei> i use food to remove myself from socialness altogether
[17:45]  * ianorlin forgot about meeting :(


[04:23] <ddddd> hello a little question i can not reach art.ubuntu.com is there a good reason ?
[04:25] <ddddd> somerville32: maybe they all sleep
[04:26]  * somerville32 nods.
[13:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'm around whenever Mandarancid gets here.
[13:38] <_MMA_> Hi Mandarancid.
[13:38] <_MMA_> kwwii: ping
[13:38] <Mandarancid> Hi to all
[13:39] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: So now we have to wait for kwwii to answer.
[13:39] <Mandarancid> yes..
[13:47] <Mandarancid> Go to use xchat and not pidgin
[13:55] <kwwii> pong
[13:55] <Mandrancid> Hi kwwi
[13:56] <kwwii> hi Mandrancid, _M
[13:56] <kwwii> hi Mandrancid, _MMA_
[13:59] <Mandrancid> _MMA_??
[14:00] <kwwii> Mandrancid: can you point me to that docuement you made with idea for changes?
[14:00] <Mandrancid> I send it for mail at _MMA_
[14:00] <Mandrancid> if you want send you the mail
[14:01] <Mandrancid> else i can post it on deviantart
[14:02] <_MMA_> Im here.
[14:02] <_MMA_> (was eating)
[14:02] <_MMA_> :)
[14:03] <Mandrancid> I'm sorry :)
[14:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: I sent you the svg the other day.
[14:04] <Mandrancid> this is only some ideas to apply at my icones
[14:05] <Mandrancid> _MMA_: what do you think about it?
[14:06] <_MMA_> I like then but for Ubuntu/Ubuntu Studio I would do a little modifications.
[14:06] <_MMA_> Mostly taking down the shine on the icons.
[14:06] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, can't find it for some reason
[14:06] <_MMA_> Though I like some of the reflections below the icons.
[14:07] <Mandrancid> mm what is the shine?
[14:07] <Mandrancid> (my english vocabulary is very shorts)
[14:07] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: On the icons themselves.
[14:07] <_MMA_> The "gloss"
[14:07] <Mandrancid> aaa the gloss
[14:07] <Mandrancid> ok
[14:08] <Mandrancid> isn't a problem..
[14:08] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: So my idea is if kwwii gets approval that there is your main branch, and I will have a branch and kwwii will have one.
[14:08] <kwwii> right, the highlight could be taken down a step somehow...so that they look a bit more matte
[14:08] <_MMA_> +1
[14:08] <Mandrancid> Branch??
[14:08] <kwwii> right
[14:09] <Mandrancid> what the mining of branch?
[14:09] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: You can have your version as the main one then kwwii and I will have our own versions.
[14:09] <_MMA_> But yours will be a base.
[14:09] <Mandrancid> sure
[14:09] <kwwii> so _MMA_ can make a blue version, ubuntu and orange version, etc
[14:10] <kwwii> note that using this in ubuntu depends on the decision from my boss
[14:10] <Mandrancid> Of course..
[14:11] <Mandrancid> The problem : my iconset isn't finished
[14:11] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: Sure. We can help with that also.
[14:11] <kwwii> right
[14:12] <_MMA_> If you look at a installed Tango set we can use that as a start.
[14:12] <kwwii> also I think that we will need to add a bit of contrast to some things..like the emblems and buttos
[14:12] <Mandrancid> I installed the tango icons and i resolve some naming problem (power and save icons
[14:12] <Mandrancid> )
[14:14] <Mandrancid> kwwii: mm for the buttons of the file manager i think is ok .. but is only my opinion
[14:14] <_MMA_> Cool. I like the mime-type icons. (file-types) as well as the drives and Trash. The "Computer" might be too flat for Ubuntu's look.
[14:15] <Mandrancid> yea the mimetypes must to be redisegned
[14:15] <kwwii> I am not suggesting adding and depth or 3d elements, rather just increasing the contrast of some parts
[14:15] <kwwii> s/and/any
[14:15] <_MMA_> No. I liked them. :)
[14:15] <Mandrancid> a ok
[14:15] <kwwii> making certain little parts a bit darker or lighter so they stand out a bit more, nothing radical
[14:16]  * kwwii has to check the chili cooking on the stove, brb
[14:16] <Mandrancid> Yea infact i made some different icon for computer and drivers
[14:18] <Mandrancid> I made also some applications icon (but i'm not sure of this)
[14:19] <_MMA_> I think for now we can stay away from the apps and try to work on system icons. (once/if we get approval)
[14:19] <Mandrancid> sure, the actions icon are all to do ..
[14:20] <Mandrancid> I see on the ubuntu studio artwork a set of flat icons
[14:21] <Mandrancid> but i don't find the link i would to download it..
[14:22] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: Thats a concept set that I will be putting aside for now.
[14:22] <Mandrancid> ah ok
[14:22] <Mandrancid> i love the flat icons
[14:22] <_MMA_> :)
[14:22] <_MMA_> Im actually writing a email now about changing concepts.
[14:23] <karma-ferit> so whats the new concept?
[14:23] <_MMA_> The concept looks to be too much for people to understand and all the art is on me ATM.
[14:24] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: For?
[14:24]  * _MMA_ is talking about Ubuntu Studio.
[14:24] <karma-ferit> ah ok
[14:24] <karma-ferit> i like the glossy bars :)
[14:25] <_MMA_> Thanx but its dead and wont return. ;)
[14:25] <karma-ferit> so why are you changing that concept?
[14:26] <_MMA_> Because people dont seem get it, and I'm receiving no real help. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
[14:26] <Mandrancid> and idea for computer icon http://mandarancio.deviantart.com/art/Computer-icon-m-p-70543286
[14:27] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: cool :)
[14:28] <Mandrancid> thanks
[14:28] <Mandrancid> in the download there is the svg
[14:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: What else do you have to say?
[14:30] <karma-ferit> well that is different
[14:31] <Mandrancid> ??
[14:31] <Toma-> :(
[14:31] <_MMA_> I think he's talking to me Mandrancid.
[14:31] <karma-ferit> don't think the folks that fell in love with the over glossed bars will be content with punk rock plastered on the desktop :-p
[14:31] <kwwii> well, I think that we already decided to move away from the glossy stuff unless the thing in real life is glossy
[14:31] <karma-ferit> in reference to _mma_'s links
[14:32] <Mandrancid> A good idea (i didn't like the glossy icons (but my folders are glossy))
[14:32] <kwwii> _MMA_: it is nothing personal, people want to go on and on about how we should do ubuntu and when I tell them that they could help ubuntu-studio or kubuntu or xubuntu, etc. they are suddently not interested
[14:32] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: I really dont care about the folks that fell in love with the gloss. I care about artists that get the concept helping.
[14:32] <_MMA_> Im just not getting the help.
[14:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: Oh I know how it goes.
[14:34] <karma-ferit> so no artists interested?
[14:35] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: Oh plenty of people interested and like the concept but like in Ubuntu its the rare person who actually steps up and does something.
[14:35] <_MMA_> Most people will just talk alot.
[14:35] <_MMA_> :P
[14:37] <Mandrancid> I'm making some test with my icons without glossy..
[14:38] <Mandrancid> aren't bad...
[14:39] <_MMA_> :)
[14:39] <kwwii> I think it has more to do with the fact that people do not want to follow art direction...everyone wants to do their own thing without realizing that you need several people to create a finished fully themed desktop
[14:39] <kwwii> anyway...
[14:39] <karma-ferit> so does Canonical sponsor studio ubuntu's art?
[14:39] <_MMA_> No
[14:39] <kwwii> karma-ferit: and we have no say in it what so ever
[14:40] <kwwii> the only artwork that canonical decides on and pays for is ubuntu artwork
[14:43] <Mandrancid> However if i can do anything i'll happy to do it..
[14:43] <Mandrancid> for the ubuntu art comunity
[14:44] <_MMA_> Cool. Hopefully we hear something positive from the boss. ;)
[14:44] <Mandrancid> I hope.. :)
[14:45] <Mandrancid> a curiosity:
[14:45] <Mandrancid> who is the boss??
[14:45] <_MMA_> Mark S.
[14:45] <kwwii> mark shuttleworth
[14:46] <karma-ferit> sabdfl
[14:46] <_MMA_> And then kwwii (Ken) when it comes to the art.
[14:46] <Mandrancid> he  is the boss of all ubuntu.. and hi decide also for the art??
[14:47] <karma-ferit> _MMA_: so you do the studio ubuntu's artwork, its rather good
[14:47] <darkmatter> he has the final say, yes
[14:47] <darkmatter> Mandrancid: ^
[14:48] <Mandrancid> the boss??
[14:48] <darkmatter> yup
[14:48] <Mandrancid> interesting
[14:48] <_MMA_> karma-ferit: Yes. I had more help with Feisty though.
[14:49] <karma-ferit> ah ok
[14:51] <karma-ferit> who else helps now?
[14:52] <_MMA_> Well some things are in a holding pattern till we get the word from Mark.
[14:53] <_MMA_> So we'll see who steps up after that.
[14:54] <hbons> this boss thing creeps me out:P
[14:54] <_MMA_> There's always a boss.
[14:55] <hbons> not when you are one
[14:57] <darkmatter> hbons: thats one of the things I like about how suse is handling things now. they have a small council that actually *votes* ;P
[14:57] <kwwii> lol, even on the artwork?
[14:58] <darkmatter> kwwii: I believe so.. let me check again
[14:58] <kwwii> they just tried to have something like our community council
[15:00] <kwwii> anyway.../me finished cooking chili
[15:01]  * _MMA_ goes to write emails.
[15:04]  * Mandrancid no glossy icons test finished
[15:04] <_MMA_> Ill take a look if you want.
[15:05] <Mandrancid> _MMA_:ok i mod only folder categories and some actions
[15:05] <_MMA_> ok
[15:05] <Mandrancid> I'll send it email
[15:05] <troy_s> and look
[15:05] <troy_s> suse's work sucks
[15:05] <troy_s> lol
[15:06] <troy_s> darkmatter: You should be able to see the clear hideous implications on anything innovative / progressive when it comes to voting.
[15:07] <darkmatter> troy_s: indeed. but even though its a roadblock it still has better results than the "mark method" ;)
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: Unless the voting party is extremely creative oriented with an agenda for new concepts, I can only imagine that voting would result in utter 'tow the line-itus'
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: That is only because Mark has no clue.
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: And SUSEs work is _awful_.
[15:07] <darkmatter> troy_s: my point exactly :P
[15:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: Heck, SUSE and Fedora 8 are both ghastly returns to uber-conservativism and monochromatism.
[15:08] <Mandrancid> _MMA_ : i must convert all resolution, you must wait  a moment..
[15:08] <darkmatter> troy_s: well. no argument. but still less hideous than ubuntu's defaults
[15:08] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: No problem. Ill be around.
[15:10] <troy_s> darkmatter: Arguably they are one and the same now -- there is nothing compelling about any of those key three -- and their market shares reflect that.
[15:10] <darkmatter> lol
[15:10] <troy_s> darkmatter: It is especially relevant at this point because Ubuntu is very clearly an option for average desktop users in many respects.
[15:12] <darkmatter> troy_s: aye. same applies to suse and fedora (simplify --> mainstream effect). I say all the artists involved in FOSS (the good ones) should just stage a coup ;)
[15:12] <andreasn> hm, what's the discussion?
[15:13] <darkmatter> andreasn: ugly uber conservative drab art n design
[15:13] <andreasn> ok
[15:13] <Mandrancid> _MMA_ done
[15:13] <_MMA_> ok
[15:17] <troy_s> darkmatter: The default snoring single colour tone with no emotional connection is byproduct of completely misplaced belief structures.  Hell... even Apple added colour to their default desktop (as well as worked around a motif this time etc.)
[15:17] <darkmatter> troy_s: there is one thing that drives me nuts even more than the drab themes/engine... desktop background. make it art. I dont care if its a well composed photo or a painting. but DAMNIT! no more blurry "wtf is that", aqua=die, so on and soforth
[15:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yes, again the uberconservativism.  Photos can be a step up, but in many respects they tend to end up being musak.
[15:19] <andreasn> darkmatter: did you file a bug regarding nautilus borders yet? I'm about to file one if not. Just wanted to check so I don't do a duplicate.
[15:19] <darkmatter> andreasn: no. not yet (havent even found the disc with my patch :/)
[15:19] <darkmatter> have a ball :)
[15:20] <troy_s> darkmatter: It seems that people who 'choose' desktop design patterns enjoy the musak.  Metallica, U2, Radiohead all have made millions and ended up with a pretty significant audience.  At no point did they ever make musak-equivalent musical decisions.
[15:20] <darkmatter> troy_s: yup
[15:20] <troy_s> darkmatter: Did you know that in the early days of record albums, all albums looked the same?
[15:21] <darkmatter> yup
[15:22] <troy_s> darkmatter: It is a very interesting comparison to computing environments (well aside from people only TWO albums really in our world).
[15:22] <troy_s> "seeing"
[15:22] <troy_s> lol
[15:22] <darkmatter> troy_s: I'n not really big on a lot of the kde4 art (to much influence from vista/mac), but even a half assed attempt at an identity is better than non
[15:23] <darkmatter> troy_s: lol. yeah
[15:23]  * _MMA_ can't wait to see what theme troy_s and darkmatter cook up.
[15:24] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: I got the email. Im looking now.
[15:26] <Mandrancid> _MMA_: Ok...
[15:28] <_MMA_> Mandrancid: That looks good. Maybe subtile shadows in places but the folders look good.
[15:28] <troy_s> _MMA_: Don't be knocking on my door.  I do that thanks.
[15:28] <_MMA_> If we get the go ahead Im sure the ideas will come flying. :)
[15:28] <_MMA_> troy_s: ?
[15:30] <_MMA_> Ok. I have no clue what you mean by that vague comment.
[15:30] <Mandrancid> _MMA_: yes..
[15:31] <andreasn> darkmatter: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499361
[15:31] <ubotu> Gnome bug 499361 in Sidebar "No borders on the sidebar (and file window)" [Trivial,Unconfirmed]
[15:31] <andreasn> darkmatter: should I add you as cc?
[15:31] <darkmatter> troy_s: thats why I always had a love for beos back in the day. not because it was "the greatest thing since spilt milk" or any such nonsense, but because it actually had an *identity* that made it stand out from the crowd
[15:32] <darkmatter> andreasn: sure
[15:32] <andreasn> darkmatter: e-mail?
[15:32] <darkmatter><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:33] <troy_s> _MMA_: It was a 'don't pull out the 'go do something' argument' statement.  I do and I try.  Further still, there is a lot to be said for trying to track down and discuss the actual _why_ things might be wrong.  Not all of it is 100% given knowledge.
[15:33] <troy_s> _MMA_: So :P
[15:35] <andreasn> darkmatter: hm, match failed? is that your bugzilla account e-mail?
[15:35] <_MMA_> troy_s: No. It was actually genuine and I should have worded it differently.
[15:35] <darkmatter> oh crap. lol. forgot to register >_> 1 sec
[15:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: Im not in that kinda mood ATM but I can go of on that tangent if you like. ;)
[15:37] <darkmatter> andreasn: try again
[15:39] <andreasn> there
[15:40] <darkmatter> :)
[15:47] <troy_s> _MMA_: LOL.
[15:47] <troy_s> _MMA_: Any nibbles on uS's pattern?
[15:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: Or more of they 'I think everything should be glossy because it was all the rage in 1981.'
[15:49] <troy_s> _MMA_: What are you playing with for backgrounds of late?
[15:49] <darkmatter> troy_s: or maybe switch the palette to bl00 and beige because it workd sooo well for xp :O
[15:50] <_MMA_> troy_s: Well I just sent a email to the list putting it on the back burner because like always people talk about helping but nobody has.
[15:50] <darkmatter> troy_s: because we all know how much you love the blue XD
[15:51] <_MMA_> Its proving too much for me to handle along with everything else. I have some backgrounds for what Im gonna do now. Pictures.
[15:51] <troy_s> _MMA_: Grr that angers me.
[15:51]  * Mandrancid away
[15:51] <_MMA_> Me too. What else can I do?
[15:51] <troy_s> _MMA_:  Grr.
[15:52] <_MMA_> Lots of talk but no _real_ help. Just lipservice.
[15:52] <troy_s> _MMA_: I need to try and get some of the other ends tied up...
[15:52] <troy_s> _MMA_: I have this bloody animatic teaser trailer that is sucking up _all_ of my time (as well as that bloody music video).
[15:53] <troy_s> _MMA_: Not to mention the time sunk into Mythbuntu's now naught campaign.
[15:53] <_MMA_> I also once dreamed of a theme with sliders that looked like faders on a sound board but we know what happened with that.
[15:53] <troy_s> _MMA_: Not quite, but I can imagine.
[15:54] <troy_s> _MMA_: I know _Toma_ was working on some stuff at some point.  He was asking about how to get the distressed look etc.
[15:54] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanarts/380319297/
 I also once dreamed of a theme with sliders that looked like faders on a sound board but we know what happened with that. <-- yeah. its sitting on a cd somewhere's 3/4 finished because shit happens when you get rushed to the hospital :)
[15:55] <_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. Some walls but he wasnt generating alot. I think he has other things to do.
[15:56] <_MMA_> darkmatter: And then you never got back to me did you? I left you messages and everything. I can only ask so much.
[15:56] <troy_s> darkmatter: How is your thing-that-shall-remain-nameless of late?
[15:57] <_MMA_> But really, I ain't sore. You guys are big boys and can do what you want. I'll do what I have to.
[15:57] <troy_s> _MMA_: On a side note, have you tried 'glest'.
[15:57] <_MMA_> troy_s: Yep. 'tis fun.
[15:58] <troy_s> _MMA_: Pretty tight delivery too.
[15:58] <_MMA_> I havnt had time to get through it but Ive heard its pretty short.
[15:58] <_MMA_> But yeah. It looks good and was fun to play.
[15:59] <troy_s> yeah... i was rather impressed with their presence.  it is pretty tight (but seems to err on the 'we make things small like enlightenment' look for everything lol)
[15:59] <darkmatter> _MMA_: well. considering when I got back from sick-time and logged on irc I no longer had access to -dev it seemed rather pointless. just like discussing now is rather pointless :)
[15:59] <darkmatter> troy_s: glest rocks.
[16:00] <darkmatter> to bad there's only two factions and once you beat or get beaten the games pretty much done
[16:00] <_MMA_> darkmatter: Oh excuses. I'm still in other channels with you. But yeah..
[16:10] <troy_s> _MMA_: (Popping in and out of the keyboard here) Window deco -- have you tried your carbon fiber / diagonal lines repeating?
[16:12] <_MMA_> No, because I'm only really good with tinkering with XML. I dont know how to do something pixmap.
[16:31] <troy_s> _MMA_: Hrm... I have some cututs (and a script if you design the window in one of my templates)
[16:31] <troy_s> _MMA_: Would that help you?
[16:33] <_MMA_> Ill look at it for sure but really Im so disheartened its gonna take real help from others to work on the DIY stuff again.
[16:33] <_MMA_> I sent you a PM with the Alt stuff I was looking at.
[16:34] <troy_s> _MMA_: Great.
[16:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: I have a metacity session pending as I need to try some experiments that kwwii and I have chundered about.
[16:36] <_MMA_> k
[16:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: When I sit down to do that eventually, I'll try to hammer out the diagonal lines look
[16:36] <troy_s> (which I could easily see becoming a 'trend')
[16:37] <troy_s> the repeating lines with gradients that O2's Pineherioioio likes so much could very well stick as a trend.  Although the blue wallpaper that the contest results showed is horribly composed, the 'essence' of the look could easily become a trend.
[16:37] <darkmatter> troy_s: they are a trend in windowblinds ;O
[16:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: Hrm... the repeating lines?
[16:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: Interesting... links?
[16:39] <darkmatter> troy_s: carbon-fiber-ish? if so yeah. hold for a sec. I'll pop on devart
[16:43] <ddddd> why can i not reach art.ubuntu.com ?
[16:44] <_MMA_> I think its being worked on.
[16:45] <ddddd> you think or are you sure ? because the xubuntu/artwork wiki links to it but dead links aren't very useful
[16:46] <_MMA_> They will be useful once the site is up. Thats the plan as I recall.
[16:47] <ddddd> ok thanks a lot
[16:49] <troy_s> ddddd: Dead links are a byproduct of 'construction'.
[16:49] <darkmatter> troy_s: meh. devart search feature suck. but if you wanna piss around theres a fairly large amount of carbon fibrous themes on the various customization sites.
[16:49] <kwwii> art.ubuntu.com is in code review
[16:49] <troy_s> ddddd: They will be dead after upgrade
[16:49] <troy_s> ddddd: As a new system is going into place
[16:49] <kwwii> so once the security guys check it out it will be up
[16:50] <kwwii> but all those links will no longer work, they point to the old site
[16:50] <troy_s> (probably to be neglected like the last three times people have insisted on getting it up)
[16:50] <ddddd> this site will be replaced ?
[16:51] <ddddd> what is the new site url ?
[16:51] <kwwii> ddddd: it is coming back, yes but in a different form
[16:51] <kwwii> it is not up yet
[16:51] <kwwii> and with that, I am off to the bar - have a nice evening everyone
[16:52] <ddddd> but the url will be the same /
[16:52] <ddddd> ?
[16:53] <kwwii> yes it will still be at art.ubuntu.com
[16:53] <kwwii> but all the old pages will be gone, we are starting fresh
[16:53] <kwwii> for what it is worth
[16:53] <kwwii> anyway, I am out of here
[16:53] <ddddd> ok so i can leave the url in the wiki thanks
[17:01] <troy_s> ddddd: its a wiki
[17:01] <troy_s> ddddd: do what you want
[17:01] <troy_s> ddddd: to be fair, that site has _never_ been a good source of work.
[17:02] <troy_s> ddddd: arguably gnome-look, kde-look, and compiz-look have far more selection
[17:02] <TheSheep> sigh
[17:03] <TheSheep> why people can't keep old url actual after upgrad
[17:03] <TheSheep> ee
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: You mean links?
[17:03] <TheSheep> ever heard of redirects and rewrites? :/
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yuck.
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: Give google a week and it updates.
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: Talk about legacy links, and for what?
[17:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: what about all the sites that linked there?
[17:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: It was mostly junk.
[17:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: *everything* is mostly junk
[17:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: Well themes on gnome-look go up and down, I can't expect any dynamic site to keep links.
[17:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: It seems like a waste of time.
[17:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's two lines in apache config
[17:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: or any other web server
[17:05] <darkmatter> troy_s: another thing I can see becoming trendy (been thinking of it since I want to move away from the window analogy with my current project) is *basically* a picture frame
[17:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: just give a '301 Moved permanently' response
[17:08] <ddddd> yes it is very strange not to get a message like this site is under heavy construction
[17:09] <troy_s> ddddd: Well it _is_ free software -- feel free to step up and help out Nuzum.
[17:10] <troy_s> (although granted, a good portion of Ubuntu has process before one can 'help out' -- and for good reason)
[17:12] <ddddd> the people who are able to setup art.ubunntu.com are skilled enough to make an error/info/redirect page !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[17:12] <troy_s> darkmatter: The only serious and significant effect / impact that someone can creat 'trend' out of is looks though.  Those repeating lines have a very 'neato' feel to them if applied to an interesting concept.
[17:12] <troy_s> ddddd: Will you settle down.  It isn't like art.ubuntu.com was a well used site.
[17:12] <troy_s> ddddd: it had a few hits (probably googling ubuntu but I don't have analytics for it)
[17:12] <troy_s> ddddd: It is really a moot point.
[17:15] <ddddd> because of bad advertisement on ubuntu.com ? or because there are better sites already up then better stop the site and focus on those
[17:16] <troy_s> ddddd: Because Ubuntu is _huge_
[17:18] <troy_s> ddddd: And there are a lot of 'tendrils' that a few people need to keep up on.  Nuzum is a VERY busy guy and has better things to worry about than _that_ low level detail.  That said, a polite email to him would probably have resulted in such a page.  Of course, if you do a little Googling, you might find out how _who_ was responsible for the site, _who_ can implement the change, and _how_ to contact that person.
[17:18] <troy_s> ddddd: And yes, for all of those reasons it is a moot point.  art.ubuntu.com gets hits PURELY because it has Ubuntu in it.  Not because it was terribly useful.
[17:19] <troy_s> ddddd: This is all said _not_ to poo poo on your parade.  A polite letter to Nuzum and you might get a redirect.  You might not -- he is a helluva busy guy.
[17:20] <troy_s> ddddd: Honestly though, what good is a redirect when the site has very little of worth on it to begin with?
[17:29] <dddd1> (06:18:10 PM) ddddd: and the development of default artwork for the distribution release takes already place on the wiki was my last message connection broken :-(
[17:33] <dddd1> troy_s: want discuss it further ?
[17:41] <troy_s> dddd1: Nothing to discuss.
[17:42] <troy_s> dddd1: Design is a _BIG_ deal, and is overseen / steered / ruled upon / by elements outside our control.
[17:44] <troy_s> dddd1: The design of the default look is not even really anything that could be considered a process or otherwise.  It is a decree based upon last minute decisions.
[17:48] <_MMA_> Um... WTF? http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/11/mpaa_university_toolkit_opens_1.html?nav=rss_blog
[17:49] <_MMA_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2007-November/004755.html
[17:54] <dddd1> i understand it is ok but i can't see a good reason for art.ubuntu.com to exist because non default artwork goes to http://www.gnome-look.org/ and at this moment all development ideas and stuff for default artwork goes to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork?action=show&redirect=ArtworkTeam
[17:55] <_MMA_> dddd1: Im sorry but you're a little late on this topic. I believe its been discussed at length on the ML and here.
[17:56] <_MMA_> Users wanted art.ubuntu.com.
[17:56] <dddd1> it is ok
[17:59] <dddd1> 1 last question is this site only for ubuntu or also for kubuntu xubuntu and so on ?
[17:59] <_MMA_> I would figure for all.
[17:59] <dddd1> ok
[17:59] <_MMA_> I didnt get an impression otherwise.
[18:00] <dddd1> i ll wait and see when the site is up and running
[18:05] <troy_s> dddd1: It is intended for all, however it inevitably ends up neglected.  This is the third or fourth incarnation.
[18:06] <troy_s> dddd1: I have long been a proponent of abandoning it.  It is 1) more effort (maintain with folks who are already busy) 2) Ends up with little to no content other than the setup 3) adds little use other than fracturing the already fractured design / look / theme site cascade.
[18:06] <troy_s> but alas, it is not my decision.
[18:06] <troy_s> it seems the people with the wonderful ideas of keeping it in motion like to push status quo.
[18:12] <TheSheep> reinventing the wheel, sigh
[18:12] <TheSheep> troy_s: isn't it mostly the "we want our own" attitude?
[18:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yep!
[18:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: I actually thought Mark's blog comment on 'secret is merging' is really really astute.
[18:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would love to see the core of K and G put their genius minds together and come up with something spectacular and 'center'
[18:13] <TheSheep> I remember when everyone tried to 'make their own wiki' and everyone tried to make it an encyclopedia
[18:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: I also firmly believe that diversity is a keystone of health, but certain things aren't that different that they would require a full 'let's do this solo' approach.
[18:13] <TheSheep> fortunately most of them died off
[18:13] <troy_s> lol
[18:13] <troy_s> Yeah they all did.
[18:14] <troy_s> It happens.  Nevermind the Google clones, the Digg clones, the Next-Hot-Item clone as though clones (read lack of 'new' or 'innovation') EVER work once there is an exemplary site.
[18:14] <dddd1> there is an option to reach more people about this kind of decisions there are several teams on launchpad with members like "ubuntu artwork team" "ubuntu users" "xubuntu artwork team" "xubuntu users" etc. and there is also a poll option on launchpad you see the potentional of this ?
[18:15] <TheSheep> it's always like that: one brilliant idea, followed by lots of forks exploring the problem space with, followed by few workable designs surviving
[18:15] <troy_s> (or anything for that matter -- hell -- did glossy ever work for any design after Apple's?)
[18:15] <troy_s> dddd1: A lot of the 'decisions' you mention are nothing of the sort.
[18:15] <TheSheep> dddd1: what has poll to design? %)
[18:16] <troy_s> dddd1: That's the problem.  People misconstrue Free Software as democracy.  It is a very real _working_ democracy -- there are parties and power interest groups.  Democracy works by involvement and politicking with those parties.
[18:16] <dddd1> no more about decisions on the infrastructure like what they use now and if they want to change
[18:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's doocracy
[18:16] <troy_s> dddd1: There is only one 'infrastructure' that powers all of Ubuntu.  That is Launchpad / Bazaar.
[18:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: There is a good deal of democracy in terms of political camps and alignments.
[18:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not strictly about 'voting' of course.
[18:17] <TheSheep> troy_s: "vote with your code" I say :D
[18:17] <troy_s> dddd1: What 'outside' folks fail to understand is that the devs don't bother with forums and they don't care.  Launchpad / Bazaar is the driving force.
[18:18] <dddd1> yes and you can use poll with good questions to get answers from more people then on the mailing list
[18:18] <TheSheep> dddd1: abundance of answers is a problem rather than solution
[18:18] <troy_s> dddd1: And well, as anyone who has ever tried to track things would quickly realize, it is a nightmare reading forums, keeping up on mailing lists, keeping up on realtimezone IRC, keeping up on outside news, AND trying to factor in career, family, and normalcy.
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: Who cares about polls?
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: In the end, Free Software is driven by users.
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: Users who also happen to create the bits they use.
[18:19] <troy_s> dddd1: Everyone else simply doesn't matter in the scope.
[18:20] <dddd1> i mean to use polls to get info for directions to go not let the poll make the decision
[18:20] <TheSheep> o/~ "join our stall, make software, you'll be free" o/~
[18:21] <troy_s> dddd1: Who cares about directions?  Anyone who cares learns how to do it themselves.
[18:21] <troy_s> dddd1: WORSE
[18:21] <troy_s> dddd1: Is you have people giving 'directions' with no experience, credibility, merit, nor education.
[18:22] <troy_s> dddd1: Even someone with the inability to code might be able to create credible documentation / design blueprints / animatic mocks / etc.
[18:23] <troy_s> dddd1: And if they don't have the care or desire to put in that effort, then should they really have a say in anything?
[18:23] <dddd1> that is wrong thinking because you can choose the teams related with it --- time to eat --
[18:23] <troy_s> dddd1: It works _wonderfully_ now.  The major problem with Ubuntu has very little with the technological development.
[18:23] <troy_s> dddd1: It is the fastest growing distribution.  It has worldwide support.  It has a decent degree of momentum and uptake.
[18:24] <troy_s> dddd1: Arguably where it is weakest is in the outward presentations and other apparently 'simple trivial' things such as marketing emotional connection, branding, etc.
[18:24] <TheSheep> marketing :(
[18:25] <TheSheep> marketing is the science of making happy people miserable
[18:25] <dddd1> mark -e thing
[18:26] <TheSheep> then again, one cannot live without it
[18:26] <dddd1> marketing is for bussiness not for me
[18:27] <TheSheep> dddd1: no, it's everywhere
[18:27] <TheSheep> dddd1: those polls you mention are marketing too
[18:27] <dddd1> uh oh
[18:27] <troy_s> TheSheep: Sad you feel that way.
[18:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: Marketing is tightly bound to design -- it is the entire process of making people happy and creating an emotional attachment to a product / output.
[18:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: there is also markeying of already designed products
[18:29] <troy_s> dddd1: Marketing / design is for everyone.  Apple uses marketing twofold -- they generate new users AND they re-invigorate brand loyalty / attachment / emotional connections with their exisiting users.
[18:29] <dddd1> talking about democracy and power all my dutch xubuntu documentation is deleted didnt fit in the view of the documentation team
[18:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: Sure... but even Free Software 'marketing' (closer to politicking) does this to generate the 'next version'.
[18:29] <troy_s> dddd1: It happens.
[18:30] <troy_s> dddd1: The 'marketing' team is at least as broken as the artwork team in terms of 'fitting in'.
[18:30] <dddd1> i do not care about it they get old questions in the forum agan
[18:30] <troy_s> dddd1: Worse, there is a high ranking person who is a member of the 'marketing' team.
[18:30] <TheSheep> troy_s: both marketing and design have the 'information gathering' and 'requirement research' phases, that's why they are similar
[18:31] <dddd1> i focus now on the english part of xubuntu
[18:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: you can design for marketing, of course
[18:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Worse is when Marketing and Design are two different 'things' -- the presentation is completely fractured.  I would give props to Apple for unifying that end of things.
[18:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: In fact, as much as I have an ethical problem with Apple (and a huge awful hate of all wet floor reflections ;) ), they do _much_ very well.
[18:32] <troy_s> dddd1: Your best bet is to make alliances with the people who matter, if that is your cup of tea.
[18:32] <TheSheep> troy_s: if 'selling' your product is one of the design goals, then you need to design with marketing. if there are other goals, you need to design with those other processes in mind.
[18:32] <troy_s> dddd1: The heavy hitters -- the folks who make the changes -- can have a good impact.
[18:32] <dddd1> it is like old closed unix with a design
[18:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: For us, 'selling' (as much as it is free) is vital in my eyes.  We need new users / popularity / etc. for survival.  Look at AWN for example.
[18:33] <dddd1> i now first ask then write :)
[18:33] <TheSheep> dddd1: I wouldn't call unix 'closed', it was viewed as anarchistic at the time it was created. extremely so.
[18:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: to resolve the bug #1, eh? :)
[18:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[18:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: Marketing / Design / etc is now the _sole_ glaring hole in Free Software.  The developers are top shelf.  The application design architecture is AWFUL (layered approach to accommodate different user levels might be more versatile) and the ability of the 'designers' is ...
[18:34] <dddd1> unix is closed gnu+linux is open isnt it
[18:34] <troy_s> dddd1: Unix is a trademarked term.
[18:34] <dddd1> ok
[18:34] <troy_s> dddd1: You can't use it in public without paying for it (as Apple did)
[18:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: it become a 'standard' much much later
[18:35] <TheSheep> dddd1: 'closed' in what sense? it's based on open standards and is extensible
[18:35] <dddd1> ok i have understand it wrong then
[18:35] <troy_s> As of 2007, the owner of the trademark UNIX® is The Open Group, an industry standards consortium. Only systems fully compliant with and certified to the Single UNIX Specification qualify as "UNIX®" (others are called "Unix system-like" or "Unix-like").
[18:35] <troy_s> Wikipedia
[18:36] <troy_s> dddd1: It _was_ completely owned and patented by AT&T
[18:36] <_MMA_> I think Apple just got that cert actually.
[18:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's politics and marketing
[18:36] <dddd1> so i was right but it changed
[18:36] <_MMA_> (off topic)
[18:36] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah I don't know.  I seem to remember reading about them paying for it, but that may have been misinformation.
[18:37] <dddd1> this is offtopic yes but it is not bizzy
[18:37] <troy_s> _MMA_: I am unaware of the politcal structure of 'the open group' and even their name scares me.
[18:37] <_MMA_> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9048102
[18:38] <troy_s> Their members include a range of IT buyers and vendors as well as government agencies, for example Capgemini, Fujitsu, Hitachi, HP, IBM, NEC, US Department of Defense, NASA and others.
[18:38] <troy_s> :)
[18:38] <troy_s> _MMA_: That's what I was afraid of.
[18:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: no MPIAA? ewww ;)
[18:39] <troy_s> It isn't a group at all, it is a consortium of commercial entities.
[18:39] <troy_s> Which is probably the reason that having Unix circle c by your name is nothing more than a rubber stamp of political alignment.
[18:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: there are laws about using unix-compliant systems in government and so on
[18:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's why they tried so hard with Windows NT
[18:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: IIRC a significant US military branch uses a custom security heavy version of Linux.  So that would extend to 'unix-like' systems.  Probably POSIX.
[18:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: linux is not posix
[18:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: for the same reason why it's not unix
[18:42] <TheSheep> actaully isn't it the same?
[18:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: No
[18:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Unix(C) is supposed to be Posix++.
[18:45] <TheSheep> well, linux is neither
[18:45] <dddd1> posix cost money isnt it
[18:46] <dddd1> the certificate
[18:46] <TheSheep> yeah, MS threw a lot to make the standards that Windows NT didn't comply with "optional" in POSIX :)
[18:47] <dddd1> i read about on a bash howto and ifo page
[18:47] <TheSheep> every time a working group didn't agree to accept it, it was dissolved immediately and formed anew, without the members who disagree
[18:47] <TheSheep> it was just beautiful
[18:54] <dddd1> is there a seperate gobuntu artwork wiki or will it be created by the ubuntu artwork team ?
[18:55] <dddd1> and goes non default gobuntu artwork also to the new art.ubuntu website ?
[18:56] <dddd1> and is there also a launchpad gobuntu artwork team now or in the future ?
[19:17] <nothlit> the NSA doesn't comment on their selinux use or lack of, all the acknowledge is creating it
[19:18] <nothlit> troy_s: btw http://www.vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckImage.php
[19:19] <nothlit> troy_s: do you have the blender links i gave you for nox, the mats and stuff? i can't find where i stuffed them
[19:19] <troy_s> nothlit: Somehwere in my mail yes.
[19:20] <troy_s> nothlit: That's a handy little thing.  Not of relevance for most of my work as I am unfortunately developing for average sighted folks
[19:21] <nothlit> troy_s: email? i meant the example links i gave in -devel
[19:21] <troy_s> nothlit: Yeah I think I have the bulk of your samples in email and the links were in a tomboy arch.
[23:51] <Viper550> hey


[09:10] <yann2> hello! I am trying to manage my /etc/hosts file in rackspace - and as soon as I set manage_etc_hosts to True, the lines for eth0, eth1 do not get created anymore
[09:11] <yann2> I found this bug :  $dev_eth0 $fqdn $hostname  from this bug report on launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1020695  but I m not sure, does this mean I need to change the hosts.tmpl from cloud init, at the very beginning?
[16:37] <lipinski> Is there any known problems to passing multiple CloudConfig resources to cloud-init via HEat?  I'm trying to write two files separately via write_files, but only the second actually appears


 @ItzSwirlz [Any help needed], There is a lot to be done, what are your interests?
 I can’t help softwar
 But if I need to add a few extra lines, remove a few
 Make decisions
 Remove white spaces
 Critique things
 I can do that
 @ItzSwirlz [How yall lubuntu devs doing], Hii @ItzSwirlz
 @ItzSwirlz [I can do that], nope. You fix unity only.
 XD
 ?
 I don’t do anything with unity
 I was kidding.
 Just saw you are common there and here. so..
 Oh no you are not.
 I messed up,
 @HMollerCl [multi-monitor wallpaper], I can help there.
[07:17] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALf50ec7d57d20: Fix capitilization again] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALf50ec7d57d20
[07:32] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL221b3ded5abb: Remove uneeded whitespace] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL221b3ded5abb
[07:36] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL8adfb75d1932: Fix Fragement in summary of title] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL8adfb75d1932
[07:38] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL86cceccf4815: Fix Capitilization again] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL86cceccf4815
 @glpzzz [I can help there.], thanks!! If I have some issues I will let you know, also I would ask you for testing since you don't use openbox
 If you could look at the nm-tray things it would be nice.
[21:06] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALa637717594b9: Improve wording] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALa637717594b9
[21:40] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL5d0aea361764: Remove uneeded whitespace] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL5d0aea361764
[21:46] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALe7396b8d8c91: Fix capitlization] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALe7396b8d8c91
[21:53] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALb15ee169f08a: Add how to quit Startup Disk Creator] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALb15ee169f08a
[21:56] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL6c7e8b4994fd: Fix typo for drop down menu] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL6c7e8b4994fd
[22:50] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMETAa9c04652e673: Added xscreensaver-gl, xscreensaaver-gl-extra and their dependencies to meta.] wxl (Walter Lapchynski) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMETAa9c04652e673
 ^ Thanks!
 So now an iso from this one and earlier xscreensaver changes in seed will be up by tomorrow?
[22:54] <wxl> should be
[22:54] <wxl> i could kick it now
[22:54] <wxl> err
[22:54] <wxl> well, i could kick it now and you could add proposed
[22:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> proposed?
[22:55] <wxl> or rather you could use what's there now and use proposed
[22:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> english ploxx?
[22:55] <wxl> let's see if this works
[22:55] <wxl> !info lubuntu-meta focal
[22:55] <wxl> argh
[22:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> XD
[22:55] <wxl> !info src:lubuntu-meta focal-proposed
[22:55] <wxl> grrr
[22:55] <wxl> !info src:lubuntu-meta focal
[22:55] <wxl> ok well at least that's right
[22:56] <The_LoudSpeaker> so..?
[22:56] <wxl> just here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu%2Dmeta
[22:56] <wxl> you can see .2 is in proposed, so you have to enable tthe proposed repository to get it
[22:56] <wxl> !proposed
[22:57] <The_LoudSpeaker> I already have those changes in my installation. don't want it in via an update.
[22:57] <The_LoudSpeaker> Need it to be already there in a new live
[22:57] <wxl> that's what i'm saying
[22:57] <wxl> boot live, enable proposed, install lubuntu-meta, done
[22:58] <The_LoudSpeaker> Yeah. But will those meta changes be there if I install after that?
[22:58] <wxl> well, no, but you could follow the same procedure with the install
[22:58] <wxl> or you could just wait until the package migrates to release
[22:58] <The_LoudSpeaker> Yup that one
[22:58] <The_LoudSpeaker> I will wait.
[22:58] <The_LoudSpeaker> meanhile fill a partner of D60
[22:59] <The_LoudSpeaker> Oh I forgot. I can't untill D60 gets accepted and updates rSEED
[23:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> so you know @kc2bez @wxl @tsimonq2 what I am implying here.
[23:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> XD
[23:00] <wxl> btw
[23:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> yup?
[23:00] <wxl> P: lubuntu-meta source: file-contains-trailing-whitespace debian/changelog (line 1499)
[23:00] <wxl> P: lubuntu-meta source: package-uses-old-debhelper-compat-version 11
[23:00] <wxl> P: lubuntu-meta source: rules-requires-root-missing
[23:00] <wxl> I: lubuntu-meta source: out-of-date-standards-version 4.1.5 (released 2018-07-04) (current is
[23:00] <wxl> 4.4.1)
[23:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> hehhe
[23:00] <wxl> there's a couple more of those tailing whitespace issues
[23:00] <The_LoudSpeaker> I had warned you.
[23:00] <wxl> they're obviously not your fault, but who cares
[23:01] <The_LoudSpeaker> scroll up and dig the logs if you need proof. XD
[23:01] <wxl> next time we update meta, we should fix those
[23:01] <The_LoudSpeaker> no
[23:01] <The_LoudSpeaker> needs to be done now
[23:01] <The_LoudSpeaker> I want xscreensaver changes and theme changes separate
[23:02] <wxl> https://lintian.debian.org/
[23:02] <wxl> P = pedantic, I = info (i.e. no big deal; we can fix it next time)
[23:02] <The_LoudSpeaker> Okay. As you say sensei
[23:02] <wxl> if we had E or W tags i would have stopped you in your tracks
[23:02] <The_LoudSpeaker> XD
[23:03] <The_LoudSpeaker> You won'thave them I am using a container now
[23:03] <wxl> so i'm just saying this out loud so everyone can hear it :)
[23:03] <The_LoudSpeaker> I am building them in a container. then testing in a vm. Should be fine.
[23:04] <wxl> good job!
[23:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> But for theme I really need a clean live image
[23:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> Won't test in a vm
[23:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> grub theme i.e
[23:04] <wxl> get started filling out the sru template in a document somewhere so you have it at the ready
[23:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> okay.
[23:04] <wxl> and start working on your developer application while you're at it
[23:04] <wxl> love you bye :)
[23:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> I have exams coming up. application after that. pakka
[23:05] <The_LoudSpeaker> bye. :)
[23:05] <wxl> oh come on you can start working on it :) i made time for you! :)
[23:05] <The_LoudSpeaker> hahahahhahhah
[23:05] <The_LoudSpeaker> I shouldn't have said I am free
[23:05]  * wxl wags his finger and harumphs and other boomer things
[23:05] <The_LoudSpeaker> getting to it now.
[23:06] <The_LoudSpeaker> Btw come for scale 18x. I might come
[23:06] <wxl> ok!
[23:06] <wxl> i really would love to hang out with lynorian so i'm already convinced.. that just makes it even more exciting
[23:07]  * wxl[m] uploaded an image: IMG_20191120_150702_349.jpg (196KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/disroot.org/RbCVASqRRiLySiVinutEiuaQ >
[23:08] <The_LoudSpeaker> boomer!
[23:09] <The_LoudSpeaker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[23:09] <The_LoudSpeaker> ^ This is a looong page to read.
 @lubuntu_bot [*wxl[m]: uploaded an image: IMG_20191120_150702_349.jpg (196KB) < https://matrix …], That can must be family size. You can probably get a couple of meals out of that.
[23:13] <wxl> @kc2bez costco, dude.
 @lubuntu_bot [*wxl[m]: uploaded an image: IMG_20191120_150702_349.jpg (196KB) < https://matrix …], also, wxl you don't use facebook but use instagram?
[23:16] <The_LoudSpeaker> *Mark's ears perk up on listening the name*
[23:20] <wxl> i *kind* of use instagram. mainly for skate videos and obscure bike stuff.
[23:20] <wxl> i *NEVER* post content.
[23:21] <The_LoudSpeaker> That's not a surprise.
[23:25] <The_LoudSpeaker> should we sru the theme for bionic?
[23:25] <The_LoudSpeaker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Other_safe_cases
[23:27] <The_LoudSpeaker> lite. focal is just 6 months away.
[23:51] <The_LoudSpeaker> https://phab.lubuntu.me/T133
[23:51] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Needs Triage, Open] lubuntu-grub-theme into eoan.: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T133