[00:01] <Lex79> I can't set pbuilder environment :( bug 476955
[00:16] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: libqt4-multimedia is in Universe.
[00:16] <ScottK> Is phonon-backends in Main?
[00:17] <ScottK> It is.
[00:17] <ScottK> That's the problem.
[00:18] <JontheEchidna> ah, it needs promoted
[00:19] <Lex79> why libqt4-multimedia is in Universe if the source package is in main ?
[00:20] <ScottK> Lex79: New binaries automatically go to Universe unless someone overrides them to Main
[00:20] <ScottK> Lots of source packages are mixed Main/Universe binaries.
[00:22] <Lex79> so, are in universe also libphonon4 and libphonon-dev ?
[00:23] <ScottK> Thanks
[00:23] <Lex79> :)
[00:25] <ScottK> Lex79: slangasek says those are already in Main
[00:26] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Promoted, so the the next publisher run starts at :03 and should finish ~ :45.  After that we'll retry.
[00:29] <Lex79> in qt 4.6, Revision 29: Add phonon metapackage, libqt4-phonon -> libphon4, libqt4-phonon-dev -> libphonon-dev
[00:30] <ScottK> Lex79: When we built phonon from KDE, we had those packages, so they are still probably listed in Main
[00:30] <ScottK> Gotta run.
[00:31] <Lex79> ok
[01:26] <m4v> Riddell: ping, or anyone that can edit the page in http://www.kubuntu.org/support/espanol The link to "kdelatino" seems to be dead and got hijacked, please remove it.
[01:37] <ScottK> ryanakca: ^^^
[01:38] <MelisU> Hello guys! Quick question: Is KDEifying a Qt app doable for a newbie?
[01:39] <ScottK> MelisU: How's your C++?
[01:40] <MelisU> ScottK: C programmer .. so in ruins I guess
[01:40] <ScottK> Probably not then.
[01:41] <MelisU> ScottK:  is the basic gui for Qt and KDE the same or has KDE for every Qt component an extended KDE one?
[01:42] <ScottK> I think more the latter, but I package this stuff, I don't write it.
[01:42]  * ScottK bets JontheEchidna would know.
[01:42] <JontheEchidna> Not every Q Class has a K extended equivalent
[01:43] <JontheEchidna> I seem to recall a list of the Q's that we want K in general. lemme see if I can pull it up
[01:44] <JontheEchidna> hmm, no list. But in general if there is a K class it'll just replace the Q with a K\
[01:45] <JontheEchidna> this is about as close as I could find, but it's in no way exhaustive: http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/API_to_Avoid
[01:48] <ScottK> MelisU: If you see maco (or MsMaco) around, she recently started trying to convert to C++ and Qt/KDE stuff from C/GTK+.  She may have some advice.
[01:48] <JontheEchidna> I'd also look at a simple KDE skeleton program, such as the one that is generated by kapptemplate, to see what goes into a basic KDE program
[01:49] <JontheEchidna> basically for the KAboutData stuff that is needed I suppose
[01:50] <MelisU> JontheEchidna: OK, cool. Thanks a lot
[01:50] <MelisU> Quasel is mainly a Qt app,right?
[01:51] <ScottK> MelisU: Quassel is a QT app with optional KDE integration (which we build with for Kubuntu)
[01:52] <MelisU> ScottK: OK cool, I want to do something similar to retroshare ..
[02:25] <jjesse> when does nixternal get back from riding his bike?
[02:26] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Retrying again.
[02:26] <ScottK> jjesse: Assuming he survives, I think just after UDS.
[02:26] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: he sent out the "out for a month" mail the 15th, so I guess he'll be back around then
[02:27]  * ScottK defers to JontheEchidna's actual research
[02:27] <jjesse> cause i got a lot of work for him lined up :)
[02:29] <ScottK> Like that'll result in anything getting done.
[02:47] <jjesse> ScottK: what having a list for nixternal do won't get anything done?
[02:50] <ScottK> jjesse: How much does he normally do?
[02:50] <jjesse> ok i understand your point now :)
[03:42] <ryanakca> m4v, ScottK: Done
[03:42] <m4v> ryanakca: thanks!
[03:44] <ScottK> ryanakca: Thanks.
[03:44] <ScottK> ryanakca: Did you see the second review I pointed out today?
[03:44] <ScottK> The netbook one.
[03:45] <ryanakca> ScottK: Nope, I only put up the extremetech one... I'll check the backlog
[03:47] <ryanakca> markey: Added, thanks :)
[03:59] <ScottK> ryanakca: http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10014384o-2000498448b,00.htm
[04:00] <ryanakca> ScottK: Yep, added it :)
[04:01] <ScottK> ryanakca: Excellent.  I really liked that one.  Thanks.
[08:16] <markey> oi
[08:16] <markey> gotta paste this (bit long, but worth it)
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> nihui * r1046024 messages/trunk/l10n-kde4/zh_CN/messages/extragear-multimedia/ (5 files): (log message trimmed)
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> update amarok translation.
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> sentence by sentence reviewed by nihui.
[08:16] <tsimpson> use pastebin?
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> No launchpad translation should be committed kde upstream directly after this amarok stuff.
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> Quality is much more over than quantity.
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> Contribution is needed and welcomed, but launchpad ones are just like playground masses, at least now.
[08:16] <markey> no
[08:16] <markey> it wasn't that long after all :)
[08:17] <markey> but might interest some of you
[08:17] <tsimpson> nothing new there though ;)
[08:17] <markey> ;)
[09:32] <Sput> MelisU: in Quassel, we use wrappers for tool classes, e.g. our Icon class inherits either from KIcon or from QIcon, in the latter case we implement missing but needed bits ourselves (such as icon theme support)
[09:32] <Sput> same for KAction/QAction and so on
[09:33] <Sput> this concept keeps the #ifdefs in a few places rather than littering the codebase with them
[09:34] <MelisU> Sput: Oh, good morning. Thanks. Was that added later on or a design choice from the start?
[09:34] <Sput> MelisU: it was added later, though I had been thinking about that for quite a while before
[09:35] <Sput> I've started carefully designing our own APIs to be KDE compatible for such things before actually implementing the KDE version
[09:35] <MelisU> Sput: That is encouraging.
[09:36] <MelisU> Sput: Besides icons what are other major areas where Qt needs changes?
[09:36] <Sput> for some things, just replacing the Q by a K is enough (e.g. QColorDialog / KColorDialog), for others the K variant has added functionality that you need to code yourself in the Q version (then the wrapper class concept is the cleanest way IMHO)
[09:36] <Sput> mmmh... notifications, shortcuts, toolbars, and the main window mostly
[09:37] <Sput> plus system dialogs
[09:38] <Sput> the only thing we really couldn't integrate properly is the alignment of UI form elements (KDE4 want labels to be right-aligned). since QFormLayout is *still* broken, we need to decide which way to go, and having left-aligned labels is the right thing on all platforms except KDE4
[09:38] <MelisU> Sput: OK, so it can be added one at a time. Cool, that is nice.
[09:39] <Sput> yes, we did it that way
[09:39] <Sput> start with the main window, obviously, so you have the needed support in place
[09:39] <Sput> oh, and having a cmake-based build system helps
[09:39] <MelisU> Sput: OK, I still have to talk to upstream if they would accept the changes .. I have no desire maintaining a fork tbh.
[09:40] <Sput> sure
[09:40] <Sput> feel free to peek into our code base, looking for #ifdef HAVE_KDE should show you the places
[09:41] <MelisU> Sput: It is early planning really, but the idea a social, encrypted, serverless message/data sharing system really facinates me.
[09:43] <MelisU> Sput: I am too paranoid to rely on other peoples servers .. but I think I sould chat with the social desktop people too. Frank is a nice guy.
[09:43] <Sput> yeah I find it quite exciting how these things start shaping up
[09:44] <MelisU> me too. But I am still really unsure and maybe getting the blessing of some bright KDE will help.
[09:45] <MelisU> *KDE devy
[09:45] <MelisU> argh ... the keyboard on my EeePC is just too small :)
[09:49] <tsimpson> bug #133937 is back
[09:49] <tsimpson> but it's an easy fix
[10:07] <ulysses__> "You received this bug notification because you are a member of Kubuntu
[10:07] <ulysses__> Members, which is a direct subscriber."
[10:07] <ulysses__> I don't know, I am a kubuntu member o.O
[10:07] <amichair> tsimpson: I fixed that one.
[10:07] <tsimpson> amichair: well, it got unfixed ;)
[10:08] <tsimpson> amichair: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/35301129/software-properties_0.75.4_0.75.5.diff is my fix
[10:09] <amichair> tsimpson: or maybe it's a 3rd such place where a similar bug happens...
[10:09] <tsimpson> this one is to do with gpg keys containing non ascii chars
[10:11] <amichair> tsimpson: bug #350485 is what I fixed - sounds the same
[10:12] <tsimpson> similar, but a different bug
[10:12] <amichair> tsimpson: and I made sure it imports gpg with latin/hebrew filenames for a test
[10:12] <amichair> tsimpson: maybe it wasn't committed?
[10:12] <tsimpson> yours is in saving the data, mine is in reading it back
[10:13] <amichair> tsimpson: anyway I'm working on a few sp bugs (not yet committed)
[10:13] <amichair> tsimpson: let me know if there's anything related I can help with or take a look at :-)
[10:14] <tsimpson> I only noticed it because I wanted to try out the new ppa: style repositories
[10:14] <tsimpson> I usually never use software-properties-kde
[10:19] <amichair> tsimpson: it's my first time working on kubuntu, so I just picked a relatively simple package, and working on some simple bugfixes
[11:28] <amichair> I've managed to recreate a crash and get the message "KCrash: Application 'software-properties-kde' crashing...", is there any way to see the stack trace at the time of crash?
[11:31] <apachelogger> kde rev 1046024
[11:32] <apachelogger> markey: thanks for the pasty
[11:37] <markey> np
[11:59] <apachelogger> Sime: would be very nice if you could take a glimps at http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196800 :)
[12:04] <Sime> apachelogger: it looks like the old "Qt doesn't like the QApplication being destroyed before the other stuff is destroyed" problem.
[12:04] <Sime> apachelogger: the fix is easy enough.
[12:04]  * apachelogger pokes yuriy
[12:06] <Sime> apachelogger:  create a main() with the first bit of code in there. Make "app" global.
[12:14]  * apachelogger pokes Riddell with bug 414572
[12:24] <apachelogger> bug 415023 <- that is why lp master bugs are annoying
[12:25] <apachelogger> look at the amount of people AND teams subscribed to this bug
[12:26] <Nightrose> yea
[12:26]  * Nightrose wishes she could unsubscribe from that one
[12:26] <Nightrose> but it seems impossible
[12:31] <amichair> do all qt events (e.g. mouse) come from the same thread?
[12:38] <apachelogger> amichair: "mouse" is not an event :P
[12:38] <apachelogger> it's an input device
[12:38] <apachelogger> used to point and click on things :D
[12:39] <amichair> grrrr
[12:39] <amichair> :)
[12:39] <apachelogger> amichair: seriously... what mous events are you talking about?
[12:39] <apachelogger> dragndrop, hover?
[12:40] <amichair> if the answer depends on this, then the answer would be 'no' :)
[12:40] <amichair> either there's one event handler thread, or there's more than one
[12:40] <apachelogger> not quite
[12:40] <apachelogger> amichair: I doubt Qt works that way
[12:40] <apachelogger> amichair: I probably should ask in #qt
[12:41] <apachelogger> but if event handling follows the usual qt workflow than it is scoped to the QObject/QWidget and thus the thread of the object or widget
[12:41] <apachelogger> a drag event might be implemented differently though
[12:42]  * apachelogger doesnt see how this is relevant anyway, unless you are working on Qt itself :P
[12:42] <amichair> apachelogger: I'm investigating bug 102792 crash, trying to see if I can rule out a race condition between toggle/change events of a treeview, to be precise
[12:43] <amichair> amichair: I know some framworks guarantee that gui events all come from the same thread, hence the question about qt
[12:45] <apachelogger> amichair: AFAIK event processing is queued (such as almost everything in Qt, unless you do a manual override)
[12:46]  * apachelogger thinks that issue might be specific to pyqt
[12:46] <apachelogger> then again I always think that :)
[12:46] <amichair> it's possible... there's nothing in the sp soft-props code that pops up as candidate yet
[12:48] <amichair> apachelogger: but since I have very little experience with soft-props, python, pyqt and qt, I'm trying to learn the basics as I go along :-) (thanks!)
[12:49] <apachelogger> uhm
[12:49] <apachelogger> sp is not localized because of a bug
[12:49] <apachelogger> fun
[12:49] <apachelogger> :D
[13:10] <amichair> apachelogger: strange... there's one call to set_modified_sourcelist that if commented out, stops the crash from happening.
[13:11] <amichair> apachelogger:  but if I inline the entire method contents in place of the call, it doesn't crash either.
[13:11] <amichair> apachelogger: and if I put a return statement in the first line of the method, it does crash
[13:11] <amichair> apachelogger:  it's like the stack frame gets messed up or something... who would do such a thing? and for god's sake, why??
[13:46]  * apachelogger runs his head against the wall
[13:47] <apachelogger> amichair: no clue, maybe Sime knows
[13:47]  * apachelogger is fighting with l10n
[13:49] <apachelogger> yay QGroupBox.title() strips html formatting for some reason
[13:54] <maco> *snort* just saw a dent  of someone switching from kubuntu to ubuntu because they're sick of the "krashing"
[13:56] <apachelogger> actuall
[13:56] <apachelogger> y
[13:56] <apachelogger> awoga
[13:56] <apachelogger> gtk version uses foobar Qt does not
[13:56] <apachelogger> yet .po only conatains the foobar version
[13:57] <apachelogger> you know
[13:57] <apachelogger> I hate that crap
[13:57] <apachelogger> I hate it all
[13:57] <apachelogger> I hate it so hard that I could throw up
[13:57] <apachelogger> right now
[13:57] <apachelogger> right here
[13:57] <apachelogger> just because of that and the bazillion other issues that are only caused by insanity in a component or another
[15:18]  * Nightrose hugs apachelogger and takes him for a dance
[15:20] <apachelogger> #~ msgid "_Check for updates automatically:"
[15:20] <apachelogger> #~ msgstr "_Automatisch auf Aktualisierungen prüfen:"
[15:20] <apachelogger> note them #~
[15:24]  * apachelogger blinks
[15:24] <apachelogger> ha
[15:24] <apachelogger> stuff from our ui files dont even seem to matter
[15:24] <apachelogger> \o/
[15:25] <apachelogger> Nightrose: honey, please do something
[15:26] <apachelogger> them blue headed step child implementations are so ugly
[15:26] <Nightrose> :(
[15:26] <Nightrose> would a good soup help?
[15:26] <Nightrose> i was about to make one
[15:26] <apachelogger> dont think so
[15:26] <Nightrose> hmmm
[15:27] <apachelogger> wellz
[15:27] <apachelogger> I think I squeezed as much translation out of that crap as possible
[15:39] <apachelogger> hah
[15:39] <apachelogger> how cool is that
[15:39] <apachelogger> everything sez the string should get translated
[15:39] <apachelogger> but it does not
[15:39] <apachelogger> awesome
[15:45] <ScottK> apachelogger: Timelord in the news: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Project-Timelord-Kubuntu-to-Become-Even-Better
[16:10] <apachelogger> what an incredible waste of time
[16:14] <apachelogger> ScottK: yeah, saw that already :)
[16:17] <apachelogger> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/software-properties/main/revision/585
[16:17] <apachelogger> ugly python ftw!
[16:42] <Sput> apachelogger: well, Qt does start multiple threads you never see in your program
[16:42] <Sput> so even a "single threaded Qt application" starts about 4 threads
[16:44] <jwisser> Anyone know why this is in Konqueror? http://flic.kr/p/7dQCcL
[16:54] <Sime> apachelogger: It looks like you are trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole there....
[16:55] <apachelogger> Sime: yeah, that happens when you want to share translations between gtk and kde
[16:55] <apachelogger> + I need non-invasive solutions so that I can improve the translations in 9.10
[16:56] <Sime> ouch...
[16:58] <Sput> or maybe invasive ones?
[17:10] <apachelogger> Sput: I can not change strings or add new ones or stuff
[17:11] <apachelogger> but the concept applied for that particular applicaiton are fundamentally wrong in terms of l10n sharing between the GTK and KDE UI
[17:11] <Sput> hmkay
[17:11] <apachelogger> so I need to fight the issues instead of squashing them with superior love
[17:12] <Sput> what about buttseks instead of superior love?
[17:12] <Sput> that'll show them issues!
[17:21] <apachelogger> Sput: that does not qualify for stable update either :P
[18:07] <ryanakca> yuriy: Any ideas for bug 389245 ?
[19:28] <ScottK> NCommander: Could you take a look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/4:4.6.0~beta1-1ubuntu1/+build/1328646 - My barely trained reading says it's a portability but it'd be very nice to get fixed upstream before Qt 4.6 releases.
[19:56] <ulysses__> I had just now a strange 'crash', I worked, and then the X disappear, I could only reach tty1-6, and after that the X reloaded, but my session...
[19:57] <ulysses__> no crash report, no error message, nothing
[20:47] <amichair> say I fixed a few bugs in a branch, what then? do I need to find a guru willing to volunteer to review it and merge it? I'd be happy to get some feedback so I can do better as I proceed...
[20:50] <apachelogger> hah
[20:50] <apachelogger> how nice is that
[20:50] <apachelogger> I cant remove the indicator crap unless I am in edit-panel mode
[20:50] <apachelogger> you know what
[20:50] <apachelogger> that does it
[20:50] <apachelogger> see you in a week or so
[20:50]  * apachelogger seriously need to consider whether it is worth dealing with all that shit
[21:14] <Quintasan> what, plasma on symbian. w00t
[22:26] <jwisser> Can someone explain to me exactly what the Kubuntu Council is? I assume it's a sort of steering committee, but I can't find much information on exactly how much control/influence they have, and how they wield it.
[22:28] <ScottK> jwisser: They are elected by Kubuntu Members.  They take the final decisions on Kubuntu development for each cycle and resolve any disputes within the community.
[22:29] <jwisser> ScottK: And are Kubuntu Members strictly developers?
[22:29] <ScottK> No.
[22:29] <jwisser> By what criteria are they elected?
[22:29] <ScottK> It's essentially the same rules as Ubuntu members, but with a Kubuntu focus.
[22:29] <ScottK> The Kubuntu Council is not all developers either.
[22:33] <jwisser> ::nods::
[22:34] <jwisser> If they make final decisions, does that mean they can suggest areas that need bug fixes and other work, or do they get say on what's included and what's not?
[22:35] <jwisser> Slash where can I learn about this so I'm not wasting your time?
[22:36] <ScottK> It's on wiki.kubuntu.org somewhere ....
[22:37] <Nightrose> jwisser: generally the community decides
[22:38] <Nightrose> we have regular meetings for example
[22:38] <ScottK> Anyone can suggest stuff, but since this is mostly a volunteer organization there isn't much directing.
[22:38] <jwisser> nightrose: What's in and what's out, you mean?
[22:38] <Nightrose> but if we can't come to a conclusion the coulcil takes a decision
[22:38] <ScottK> Generally what's in is defined by what people are willing to volunteer time to work on.
[22:38] <Nightrose> well decisions on default programs have been made by the council before yea
[22:38] <Nightrose> right
[22:39] <jwisser> ScottK: I guess the point I'm trying to get at is whether there's anyone who holds people toes to the fire regarding a given release not having something broken in it.
[22:39] <Nightrose> the council really really seldomly has to make a decision
[22:39] <jwisser> *people's
[22:39] <ScottK> jwisser: Developers generally do that collectively.
[22:39] <ScottK> Not sucking is something we're all pretty committed to.
[22:43] <jwisser> ScottK: But that predominantly revolves around directly-code-related issues, yeah? For example, say a random window—call it the kpackagekit authentication window, 'cause that's what it was—takes up huge amounts of unnecessary vertical space, and can't be resized.
[22:43] <jwisser> Does anyone jump on design issues like that?
[22:44] <ScottK> Yes.
[22:44] <ScottK> I whine about kpackagekit incessently.
[22:45] <ScottK> Also one of the Kubuntu Council members is the head of the KDE usability project.
[22:45] <ScottK> That doesn't hurt either.
[22:45] <jwisser> Good deal. Can I file design issues as bugs, then?
[22:45] <jwisser> Like the weird Windows-shield-appearing-in-Konqueror issue I linked to earlier?
[22:45] <ScottK> Certainly, but generally we'll defer to upstream on such things.  It's actually better to file there.
[22:46] <jwisser> That makes sense, but it does seem like depending on upstream devs and designers leaves a lot of room for uncontrolled brokenness.
[22:46] <jwisser> (I'm sure this conversation has been hashed out a hundred times before, I'm just trying to understand how things work for myself.)
[22:46] <ScottK> One of the Kubuntu core values is that we are a KDE distro, so we stick close to upstream for most things.
[22:47] <ScottK> KDE upstream development is a lot more integrated (as I understand it) than Gnome's so this isn't a risky as it might sound to you.
[22:48]  * txwikinger doesn't get the KDE-Windows comparison
[22:49] <txwikinger> KDE can be customize in far too many ways that my desktop ever be mixed up with windows
[22:49] <jwisser> txwikinger: http://flic.kr/p/7dQCcL is all I was talking about.
[22:50] <txwikinger> Ah... well sorry....
[22:51]  * txwikinger is already again behind schedule and watching SEC games is not helping either
[22:53] <amichair> say I fixed a few bugs in a branch, what then? do I need to find a guru willing to volunteer to review it and merge it? I'd be happy to get some feedback so I can do a better job :-)
[22:54] <jwisser> txwikinger: I wasn't comparing KDE to Windows, but since you mention it the KDE application launcher menu smells a bit too strongly of the Windows Start bar for my taste.
[22:54] <txwikinger> well.. don't use it :D
[22:55] <txwikinger> there are other things you can use
[23:03] <jwisser> It seems difficult to market something when there's no particular group of people setting absolutely definite requirements for a given release until a month or two before final release (as I understand it).
[23:06] <Ash-Fox> You know, I get some weird technical support requests from time to time, but this guy beats all... He wants me to teach him how to read better so he can become a DBA.
[23:08] <kwwii> Riddell: ping?
[23:09] <kwwii> Riddell (or anyone who can answer)...is the KDM theme from upstream?
[23:09] <kwwii> and if so, which upstream? oxygen, etc?
[23:09] <Ash-Fox> I haven't seen it in other distributions.
[23:10] <ScottK> kwwii: I'm almost certain it is.  We had an artwork spec for Karmic, but nothing got done with it.
[23:10] <kwwii> ScottK: yeah, I know that I didn't do anything :p
[23:10] <ScottK> Ash-Fox: I think we're the only ones NOT to customize it.
[23:10] <ScottK> Thus we get to be unique with zero effort. ;-)
[23:10] <kwwii> mark is apparently impressed with it :)
[23:10] <Ash-Fox> Haha, ScottK, I remember when some people disliked Kubuntu for customizing things from upstream.
[23:11] <ScottK> kwwii: The only artwork thing I think that got done last cycle is the installer stuff got blinged up with help from upstream.
[23:11] <ScottK> Ash-Fox: We deserved some of it too.
[23:12] <kwwii> for lucid I am going to suggest that i work more on kubuntu
[23:12] <kwwii> see what comes of that ;)
[23:12] <Ash-Fox> ScottK, I'm not entirely convinced, for people flaming for Konqueror's toolbar customizations... Honestly, the thing was horrible from upstream
[23:12] <ScottK> kwwii: Excellent.
[23:12] <ScottK> Ash-Fox: I didn't say we deserved all of it.
[23:12] <Ash-Fox> Billion button hell :)
[23:12] <Ash-Fox> ScottK, true. ;)
[23:13] <ScottK> kwwii: I think KDE4 is really starting to come together and we've got a good shot at a really great LTS release for Kubuntu.  Having some artwork help would be huge.
[23:14] <jwisser> The LTS release does seem like a great opportunity.
[23:15] <jwisser> ScottK: Am I getting my timeline wrong for feature/UI freeze?
[23:15] <ScottK> What timeline?
[23:15] <jwisser> Sorry, it was back up a ways.
[23:15] <jwisser> It seems like those freezes don't occur until a month or two before release.
[23:16] <ScottK> jwisser: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
[23:16]  * ScottK needs to go be "Driver of teenagers" for a while.  See you in a bit.
[23:16] <jwisser> ScottK: Safe driving!
[23:18] <jwisser> The thing is, if Kubuntu is going to be promoted to non-Kubuntu/RandomLinux users, there needs to be something to definitively promote. Just being a KDE dpkg-based distro is not really enough to stand out and attract new users.
[23:18] <jwisser> Does anyone else see this as a problem?
[23:19] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: just curiosity, can't we keep for now kubuntu-menu icons in kdelibs?
[23:20] <JontheEchidna> It's not being used and it makes the diff really large
[23:22] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: it's used if you want change kde logo in kickoff, just go in application launcher setting -> icon and type "kubuntu" and you can have kubuntu logo
[23:22] <Lex79> I saw much karmic screenshoot with kubuntu logo in my forum
[23:23] <amichair> jwisser: depends who u'r trying to promote to... for the average windows user, 'linux' and 'ubuntu' and 'ubuntu with kde' are all about the same... just maybe different looks
[23:23] <Lex79> maybe because I wrote in forum how to change kde logo to kubuntu logo :)
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> it's available from kde-look anyhow. Most users will never see it
[23:24] <jwisser> amichair: Precisely. The idea being that Kubuntu should have something promoters can call on to demonstrate that it's unique and special and you should try it.
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> Plus I think there were issues about brand pollution by mixing the two logos
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> I wouldn't adovcate including it until we've talked about it with upstream
[23:26] <amichair> jwisser: for those users it won't make much of a difference... if you're lucky they've heard of 'ubuntu' from some friend, which makes kubuntu familiar by association. if they also like blue, they'll give it a shot over ubuntu. I think a screenshot is nearly all you can hope to sell.
[23:27] <jwisser> That's how things are *now*. That is not how they should be in the *future*.
[23:28] <jwisser> The reason Ubuntu rose to what prominence it has it that it had features (namely user-friendliness) not common in other distros.
[23:28] <amichair> jwisser: when the year of linux on the desktkop arrives, I'll agree :-)
[23:29] <amichair> jwisser: I think what made the difference is the community, and marketing as such
[23:29] <amichair> jwisser: and again, kubuntu gets that by association
[23:29] <claydoh> tough question to ask : are/will we be trying to attract users really? Or rather are we trying to be the super-easy newbie-friendly distro, or do we get that by association?
[23:30] <amichair> jwisser: do u have any ideas for something u can really promote to such users?
[23:30] <jwisser> amichair: That's what I'm trying to find out—what is there that we can promote?
[23:30] <claydoh> too many questions we need to answer still
[23:30] <jwisser> claydoh: Good questions. My impression (under Project Timelord) is that Kubuntu wants new users. Possibly I'm wrong.
[23:31] <dtchen> I think new users is a bit tangential to the proposal
[23:31] <jwisser> Getting reputations by association is nice, but Windows didn't get where it is by living on the reputation of DOS or Mac OS. For any particular project to gain attention, it needs to have features of its own to trumpet.
[23:32] <claydoh> jwisser: I assume any distro wants more users, but I don't think anyone has figured out how that fits in with being a KDE-only distro, and an Ubuntu deriviative, etc
[23:32] <jwisser> I guess my question, then, is why would we *not* be trying to attract new users?
[23:32] <jwisser> claydoh: Which is what I'm trying to encourage people to do. :-)
[23:33] <jwisser> Project Timelord calls for vision; I'm trying to find out who's got it. ;-)
[23:33] <amichair> jwisser: I'm not sure windows every had it's own features to target. it just aimed lots of marketing at demographics who were never exposed to computers in that way.
[23:33] <amichair> jwisser: and we need to do the same, but with 'never exposed' replaces with 'never exposed to anything but windows'
[23:34] <jwisser> amichair: I don't think most of the first generations of Windows users were totally unexposed to the desktop metaphor. If I remember my timeline correctly, Macs were pretty big news first.
[23:34] <jwisser> amichair: So the question becomes, what do we have that's better than what other people have? Or, more generally, *why should people switch*?
[23:34] <claydoh> jwisser: :) we still need to define a 'target audience' which is tough to do, I wouldn't want that job,  but it may be necessary, Developing that so-called kubuntu vision will probably help define that
[23:35] <jwisser> And for me, three selling points are 1) free (gratis), 2) open source (libré), and 3) customizable.
[23:35] <jwisser> But what sells to me won't sell to everyone, so we need to define a vision, make it happen, and promote it to the people it's aimed at.
[23:36] <amichair> I agree, but I think nobody cares about #2, some care about #1 (but a whole lot just pirate windows anyway)
[23:36] <claydoh> what sells it to me is KDE, KDE, and package management and other debian/ubuntu underpinnings :)
[23:36] <jwisser> amichair: As I said, that's why we need to find the things that *will* appeal to them.
[23:37] <jwisser> claydoh: Damn skippy, with regard to apt/dpkg, etc.
[23:37] <amichair> my first guess would be looks and/or desktop experience
[23:37] <jwisser> I've never been a KDE fan; I just broke off my love—well, lukewarm fondness—affair with Gnome. What do you love about KDE?
[23:37] <amichair> not as much customizations, as most users never go beyond switching a wallpaper, if someone shows them how to
[23:38] <amichair> for a simple example: ppl that come over and want to check mail, see wobbly windows on my desktop and say 'hey, is this linux? cool!' (a true story)
[23:38] <claydoh> I like it customizations over gnome, though I personally don't customize a lot as Kubuntu has it pretty close to how I like it anyway
[23:39] <jwisser> amichair: I personally wonder how much of that is just not knowing what they can do. I've always wondered if Linux might have more success if it (where "it"="some distro) ran a "Make your computer… yours." campaign.
[23:39] <amichair> jwisser: interesting question
[23:39] <jwisser> Or "Computing… your way".
[23:39] <claydoh> esp back in the kde3 days, kubuntu's kde implementation meant I needed to fix less look-n-feel stuff
[23:40] <jwisser> Most people don't even know that you can change the location of the Start bar in Windows.
[23:40] <amichair> I'm sure there's a market for that (maybe teens?)
[23:40] <jwisser> amichair: Bingo. The emerging market.
[23:40] <amichair> there's also a lot of ppl that are scared of computers and change, and change in computers. they just want it to work (for the extremely small subset of apps/actions they use)
[23:40] <jwisser> People who are getting their own first computer and 1) want it to work exactly as they say it should or 2) have no previous experiences.
[23:41] <jwisser> amichair: And Linux can be *awesome* at that.
[23:41] <claydoh> amichair: we have a *lot* of kde3 die-hards that really don't like change
[23:42] <jwisser> So maybe there need to be several different kinds of outreach: one aimed at teens and people in emerging markets, and one (based on install-and-run-no-updates) that emphasizes how well Linux will keep working if just left alone.
[23:42] <jwisser> As opposed to how Windows (and even OS X) crap up over time.
[23:44] <claydoh> I wonder if we should target general linux users in the beginning, then once we gather steam, developers, better public acceptance, and developers, then start targeting new users once we have the resources :)
[23:44] <amichair> I think one of the hard questions is how to make the out-of-the-box experience similar enough to windows for everyone to feel at home, but different enough for them to be curious and feel there's something 'cooler' here. it's a very subtle balance.
[23:45] <jwisser> claydoh: I think finding public acceptance through wooing current Linux users is a fallacy.
[23:46] <amichair> I agree. it makes more sense to get more users, and some precentage of them will end up contributing.
[23:46] <jwisser> amichair: I really think part of the answer to that is in leaving the desktop mostly as it is (default toolbar, etc.) and then hammering promotional materials with "Look what your desktop can do"-type stuff.
[23:47] <amichair> e.g. windows developers which convert...
[23:47] <amichair> jwisser: and, making it *really* easy to find the customizations.
[23:48] <jwisser> amichair: 100%. They can't be hidden away.
[23:48] <jwisser> I've always found Gnome *easier* to customize, although the customization may not ultimately be as complete.
[23:49] <amichair> like maybe a single 'customization center' link on the taskbar, that gives u all options by category, app, search... as opposed to nested system settings, and per-app configurations u have to find for urself
[23:49] <claydoh> how do we target the new users (and make/create the tools needed to make kubuntu easier to use a-la Ubuntu) without getting more devs?
[23:49] <claydoh> jwisser: I am not disagreeing with you on this though
[23:50] <jwisser> amichair: Interesting idea. If we were to push customization, it would make sense to put it *somewhere* easy to find. I have a squicky feeling about the taskbar, though; not sure why.
[23:50] <amichair> jwisser: that's just an example :-)
[23:50] <jwisser> claydoh: It's a good question, and one I don't have a strong enough sense of how badly this community needs devs to answer.
[23:50] <jwisser> claydoh: I take it there's not an overwhelming abundance?
[23:50] <amichair> jwisser: the point is - to have it somehow centralized, so that *every* user knows exactly where the 'customization place' is
[23:50] <claydoh> I think just  showing all the things KDE4 can already do is utterly important  and probably easy to do
[23:51] <jwisser> amichair: Definitely.
[23:51] <jwisser> Have you both seen Apple's commercials for the iPhone? The "There's an app for that" one?
[23:51] <jwisser> *ones
[23:51] <JontheEchidna> ^is there an app for that? :P
[23:51] <jwisser> I think those could be a model for how to demonstrate a feature or customization option at a time.
[23:52] <amichair> nope, I don't watch much tv
[23:53] <amichair> maybe also make short videos showing off options and how to find and use them... users today are sure good at watching short videos.
[23:53] <jwisser> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szrsfeyLzyg is a decent example.
[23:53] <jwisser> amichair: that's exactly what I mean.
[23:53] <jwisser> Videos that highlight one feature (two is stretching it) at a time.
[23:53] <jwisser> Or a really awesome feature that an app has that's not common on other OSes.
[23:55] <claydoh> and even I can make a screencast nowadays :)
[23:56] <jwisser> Absolutely. Wouldn't hurt us to find out which of us has the best voice (and/or taste in background music :-P), but definitely doable.
[23:57] <jwisser> I think if we can nail down some cool stuff that's coming up in the next release (or even stuff that's really shiny about KDE), we could produce some pretty slick videos by release day.
[23:57] <jwisser> Preferably by a month or so ahead of time at minimum.
[23:58] <jwisser> The handy thing about being an underdog is that if we make a concerted marketing/promotional effort, we can probably get media attention just by doing that.
[23:59] <jwisser> At least, if we do a half-decent job of it.


[00:22] <Zal> Hi all, anyone know of any known problem with the latest ubuntu precise LTS AMI? Since switching to it, we're getting segfaults when trying to use Apache + SSL. strace isn't showing anything useful.
[00:23] <Zal> Or, how about ... where can I find a changelog for differences between Precise LTS Amazon machine imgages that are released?
[00:27] <sarnold> Zal: this isn't exactl what you asked for, but it might yet be useful.. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/precise-changes/2013-December/date.html
[00:30] <Zal> sarnold, that's certainly a great start, thank you!
[00:32] <adam_g> ahs3, any plans for a new jenkinsapi upload to debian?
[00:34] <ahs3> adam_g: hadn't planned on it until next week when i have some time.  need it sooner?
[00:35] <adam_g> ahs3, nah, was gonna do a merge to ubuntu but figured id see if there was an update coming first
[00:35] <adam_g> i'll hold off
[00:36] <ahs3> adam_g: okey dokey.  if you need to do an NMU, go for it
[00:36] <adam_g> ahs3, cool thanks
[01:14] <Sephizor> Hi, can anyone possibly help with a problem I'm having with postfix/dovecot/spamassassin?
[01:15] <pmatulis> !ask | Sephizor
[01:15] <Sephizor> Fair enough. Just thought I'd see if anyone had general knowledge of the subject area first
[01:16] <Sephizor> Anyway...Ever since I installed spamassassin yesterday, I've not been getting any mail at all in my inbox
[01:16] <sarnold> sounds like mission accomplished :)
[01:16] <jkitchen> indeed
[01:16] <Sephizor> Heh...
[01:16] <jkitchen> can you do that for me too?
[01:16] <sarnold> lol
[01:16] <Sephizor> I have a virtual user setup with postfix/dovecot
[01:16] <jkitchen> in all seriousness though, are the messages in your queue? "mailq" will tell you
[01:16] <Sephizor> And it seems like the deliver command isn't working
[01:17] <jkitchen> mailq should also say *why* they're in your queue.
[01:17] <Sephizor> Yeah, there are messages in the queue
[01:18] <Sephizor> "Unknown mail transport error" and "temporary failure"
[01:18] <Sephizor> Not much help :|
[01:18] <jkitchen> can you paste a full message?
[01:18] <Sephizor> Define "full message"
[01:19] <jkitchen> ^.*$
[01:19] <Sephizor> Lol
[01:19] <jkitchen> ?
[01:19] <Sephizor> I mean like...do you want me to paste the output of "mailq" or a mail.log entry?
[01:19] <jkitchen> yes
[01:20] <pmatulis> /var/log/syslog will show you the mail being processed, that's where i would look first
[01:20] <Sephizor> Dec 19 01:19:43 trixie postfix/error[2651]: 2A7CA1825E<EMAIL_ADDRESS>relay=none, delay=0.11, delays=0.11/0/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail transport error)
[01:23] <Sephizor> Ehh...ok, that one was me editing configs to try and track down the problem
[01:24] <Sephizor> The error I was getting before:
[01:24] <Sephizor> Dec 19 01:22:27 trixie dovecot: lda: Error: userdb lookup: connect(/var/run/dovecot/auth-userdb) failed: Permission denied (euid=1052(spamd) egid=1051(spamd) missing +r perm: /var/run/dovecot/auth-userdb, dir owned by 0:0 mode=0755)
[01:24] <pmatulis> did you follow the hint Sephizor ?
[01:25] <Sephizor> Yes, the file is owned by root:root but I tried changing it to dovecot:root with no success
[01:26] <jkitchen> Sephizor: based on that log message: 1) what user is trying to read 2) what file?
[01:26] <jkitchen> and 3) what error is it getting when it tries
[01:29] <pmatulis> spamd is being prevented from reading
[01:29] <jkitchen> pmatulis: ssshh!
[01:29] <jkitchen> :)
[01:29] <Sephizor> I know
[01:29] <Sephizor> I've added a+r
[01:29] <Sephizor> to it
[01:29] <Sephizor> But guys, please can we drop the condescending tone?
[01:29] <jkitchen> Sephizor: right, but what about directories above it? what are those perms?
[01:30] <jkitchen> Sephizor: sorry, wasn't trying to be condescending, was trying to teach
[01:30] <jkitchen> by answering those questions you inherently think about what the problem could be
[01:30] <Sephizor> I know, I'm not a Linux noob though at all
[01:30] <jkitchen> "spamd user is trying to read /var/run/dovecot/auth-userdb and is getting permission denied"
[01:31] <jkitchen> so, first thing to check: perms on /, /var, /var/run, /var/run/dovecot, /var/run/dovecot/auth-userdb
[01:31] <Sephizor> I'm just confused why adding spamassassin suddenly breaks everything when it worked fine for ages
[01:31] <Sephizor> Oh, and I changed the user to dovecot
[01:31] <Sephizor> With no success
[01:32] <jkitchen> and make sure spamd user would be able to traverse all of those directories and read the file (in this case most likely a socket)
[01:32] <Sephizor> Still had that error
[01:32] <jkitchen> changed what user to dovecot?
[01:32] <Sephizor> In the master.cf postfix config
[01:32] <Sephizor> To run spamd
[01:32] <jkitchen> ok
[01:33] <jkitchen> Sephizor: what are the permissions on /, /var, /var/run, /var/run/dovecot, /var/run/dovecot/auth-userdb
[01:33] <Sephizor> Ok, so, /var/run/dovecot is 755 root:root
[01:33] <jkitchen> (yes, I always check /, I had / get chmodded once and that caused some weird issues)
[01:34] <Sephizor>  /var/run is 755 root:root
[01:34] <Sephizor>  / is 755 root:root
[01:35] <jkitchen> and /var/run/dovecot/auth-userdb?
[01:35] <Sephizor>  644 root:root
[01:35] <jkitchen> ok, then that's no longer the error you're getting
[01:36] <jkitchen> *or* you're looking at the wrong path. postfix likes to chroot things
[01:37] <Sephizor> Error changed to "missing +w", so I've added that too...just to wait until it tries to process the queue again I guess
[01:37] <jkitchen> ok, but you don't want to just blindly chmod +w files
[01:38] <jkitchen> especially when they are email related
[01:39] <jkitchen> how did you incorporate spamassassin into your postfix / dovecot setup?
[01:39] <Sephizor> Added "-o content_filter" to the smtp line
[01:39] <Sephizor> And added the following at the bottom of the file:
[01:40] <Sephizor> spamassassin    unix    -       n       n       -       -       pipe
[01:40] <Sephizor>   flags=DRhu user=spamd argv=/usr/lib/dovecot/deliver
[01:40] <Sephizor>   -f ${sender} -d ${recipient}
[01:40] <jkitchen> ok, so that's where you changed user to dovecot previously?
[01:41] <Sephizor> user=dovecot
[01:41] <Sephizor> Yeah
[01:41] <jkitchen> ok
[01:41] <jkitchen> can you post your full master.cf and main.cf files? (using a pastebin of course)
[01:42] <jkitchen> also, you don't need to wait around for postfix to try again, you can always 'postfix flush' to force things to try again
[01:43] <jkitchen> assuming you don't have an enormous mail queue it should be fine
[01:43] <Sephizor> 30 mails
[01:43] <Sephizor> Not too big
[01:43] <jkitchen> yea, that's nothing.
[01:43] <jkitchen> I'm talking if your queue is over a million or something hehe
[01:43] <Sephizor> :p
[01:44] <Sephizor> Hang on...gotta scp these down from my server >.<
[01:44] <sarnold> if you install pastebinit on your server you can more easily pastebin content originating from it..
[01:46] <Sephizor> main.cf: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6597408/
[01:46] <Sephizor> master.cf: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6597424/
[01:49] <Sephizor> I've also tried this using sendmail for the spamd command
[01:51] <Sephizor> See anything?
[01:55] <jkitchen> Sephizor: yes
[01:56] <jkitchen> your "spamassassin" content filter is trying to use dovecot/deliver ...
[01:56] <jkitchen> I think that needs to change to something like "spamc"
[01:56] <jkitchen> https://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/IntegratedSpamdInPostfix
[01:56] <pmatulis> Sephizor: where did you get your configurations from?
[01:56] <jkitchen> you have mailbox_command dovecot deliver
[01:57] <jkitchen> which is probably correct
[02:00] <Sephizor> Ok, I changed argv to have "/usr/bin/spamc -f -e" before the dovecot command (as per other tutorials)
[02:01] <jkitchen> no, I think you need to remove the dovecot command entirely
[02:01] <Sephizor> Oh
[02:02] <jkitchen> it's a content filter, not a final delivery sequence
[02:02] <jkitchen> either that or you can implement it in the mailbox_command in master.cf, perhaps
[02:04] <Sephizor> Ok, so now the queue is empty
[02:04] <Sephizor> But still no mai;
[02:04] <Sephizor> *mail
[02:04] <jkitchen> what do the logs say?
[02:05] <Sephizor> Dec 19 02:02:20 trixie postfix/pipe[3930]: B37201825F<EMAIL_ADDRESS>relay=spamassassin, delay=2296, delays=2271/13/0/11, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamassassin service)
[02:05] <Sephizor> So I'm guessing I have to put the deliver command in the master.cf
[02:24] <Sephizor> Still no luck :(
[02:50] <Sephizor> So I gave up
[02:51] <Sephizor> Removed spamassassin with apt-get purge
[02:51] <Sephizor> And removed all stuff relating to it from the postfix config
[02:51] <Sephizor> And I still get an error about it...wtf!?
[03:22] <Sephizor> Anyone know how I can get rid of a "
[03:22] <Sephizor> warning: connect to transport private
[03:22] <Sephizor> " error?
[03:23] <Sephizor> After uninstalling spamassassin
[03:26] <Sephizor> I've found the cause, the message was received when spamassassin was still installed and now it's stuck in the mail queue
[03:26] <Sephizor> But I don't want to remove it from the queue since it's an important email which I need to read >.<
[03:28] <zul> adam_g: some of the tests were skipped because of babel issues when havana was out
[03:37] <Sephizor> Oh f'ing yes! I managed to retrieve the mail!
[03:38] <Sephizor> It was a response to a job application
[03:38] <Sephizor> That would have been hell if I'd lost that
[03:42] <JanC> Sephizor: mail is just text files you know, so reading it while it's still in the quee would have been possible too  ;)
[03:42] <JanC> just stored as text files
[03:42] <Sephizor> It said the contents were deferred
[03:42] <Sephizor> So I couldn't read it with postcat
[03:44] <Sephizor> Now I just need to figure out where spamassassin actually "delievered" the mail that was in the queue before to...Since it said it was successful but isn't in my inbox
[04:23] <hallyn_> zul: down to three failures in the libvirt tests.  one i know about and need to fix in qrt one day.  the others are two of the same failure, but worrisome
[04:23] <hallyn_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6597877/
[04:23] <hallyn_> looks like after a device is removed, it is not removed from the apparmor policy
[04:24] <hallyn_> jdstrand: ^ I assume, based on the test being there, that it is supposed to be?
[07:31] <_ruben> bugger .. backported targetcli (2.1-1) doesn't work on precise
[07:31] <_ruben> doh .. forgot to backport its library dependencies
[07:45] <XATRIX> Hi guys, what's wrong with it ?
[07:45] <XATRIX> http://ur1.ca/g7zko
[07:46] <XATRIX> As long as i see , i have no installed midnight commander.
[09:32] <jamespage> adam_g, ta - promulgated!
[13:53] <zul> jamespage:  seen this?
[13:57] <jamespage> zul, seen what?
[13:57] <zul> jamespage:  doh https://launchpadlibrarian.net/160202855/buildlog_ubuntu-precise-i386.neutron_1%3A2014.1%2Bgit201312190800~precise-0ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[13:58] <zul> jamespage:  seems like subunit is missing testtools
[13:58] <jamespage> zul, I thought I fixed that up yesterday
[13:58] <zul> jamespage:  hmm..
[14:00] <jamespage> zul, evidently not
[14:00] <jamespage> zul, I thought it was due to an early backport of subunit that just needed a rebuild
[14:00] <jamespage> zul, its only impacting on 12.04
[14:00] <zul> jamespage:  ack
[14:01] <jamespage> zul, I disabled the test execution for neutron in the lab - it takes so long the build times out and dies
[14:01] <jamespage> we need todo something about that but not quite sure what right now
[14:01] <zul> jamespage:  okies thats unfortunate
[14:01] <jamespage> zul, we limit concurrency which does not help
[14:02] <jamespage> zul, I could bump it back up again and see
[14:02] <zul> jamespage:  cool
[14:07] <jamespage> zul, actually I think this is my bad - I dropped it 4->1 for concurrency two commits ago
[14:07] <jamespage> I'm going to push that back up
[14:08] <zul> jamespage:  cool...i thought i merged my taskflow cinder fix yesterday apparently i didnt
[14:08] <zul> jamespage:  the percona testssuite fails btw
[14:09] <jamespage> zul, yeah - I just saw
[14:09] <jamespage> thats on 14.04
[14:13] <jamespage> zul, OK thats wierd - in the lab it actually runs the tests on 12.04 with no problems - they time out but...
[14:17] <zul> jamespage:  doh! http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6599908/
[14:32] <caribou> I'm looking at the cloud-initramfs-tools FTBS
[14:32] <caribou> seems that Dustin's last commit brings overlayroot/etc/update-motd.d which is a directory under overlayroot/etc
[14:33] <caribou> this breaks the install statement in the Makefile that returns an error because of the directory under etc
[14:40] <jamespage> zul, the only diff I can think of re subunit is that in the lab it gets built on amd64 arch, but in PPA its done on i386
[14:41] <zul> jamespage:  weird
[14:41] <jamespage> zul, just trying that now
[14:41] <jamespage> zul, is OK in 14.04 and in the lab archive
[14:41] <jamespage> but broken in the PPA's
[14:41] <zul> gotcha
[14:48] <kirkland> caribou: hmm, do you have a fix?
[14:48] <kirkland> caribou: sorry about that...
[14:48] <caribou> kirkland: looking for one; I'm not a Makefile/install guru; just need to figure out how to install the subdir as well
[14:48] <caribou> kirkland: no worry
[14:54] <jamespage> zul, linked the MIR for python-jsonpath-rw + ply to your openstack blueprint
[14:54] <zul> jamespage:  thanks
[14:54] <jamespage> zul, all OK - ply needs some test enablement (currently fails some python3 tests but OK under python2)
[14:55] <zul> jamespage:  cool networkx still uses python-support
[14:55] <jamespage> zul, that will need fixing I guess
[14:56] <zul> jamespage:  fixing it now
[14:56] <jamespage> nice
[14:56] <jamespage> zul, make sure that goes back to Debian - that's definately delta we don;t want to worry about going forwards :-)
[14:56] <jamespage> zul, Ran 9828 tests in 2536.629s
[14:56] <jamespage> omg that's alot of tets
[14:56] <jamespage> and one still fails...
[14:56]  * jamespage sighs
[14:56] <zul> neutron?
[14:57] <jamespage> zul, was there a specific reason we have not mir'ed jsonrpclib
[14:57] <jamespage> its needed for one of the mechanism drivers for ml2
[14:57] <jamespage> and I noticed it was pushed out of requirements.txt
[14:58] <zul> jamespage:  upstream sneaked it in during our FF
[14:58] <jamespage> zul, I'll add it to the MIR list
[14:58] <zul> jamespage:  ok
[14:59] <zul> it seems to me we are doing more MIR this cycle than last
[15:01] <jamespage> zul, nice easy one this time -https://code.launchpad.net/~james-page/neutron/enable-jsonrpclib/+merge/199670
[15:02] <zul> jamespage:  +1 merry christmas ;)
[15:04] <jamespage> zul, ta
[15:18] <zul> jamespage:  just a heads up in keystone http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6600207/
[15:22] <jamespage> zul, ok - ta
[15:22] <zul> jamespage:  i dont know how it affects the charms if any
[15:23] <jamespage> zul, well as it deprecated - nothing immediately
[15:45] <jdstrand> hallyn_: re apparmor profile updated on detach> yes. that is a very old (2.5+ years) test
[15:46] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: ping
[15:46] <jdstrand> hallyn_: if it isn't doing it, then it seems there is a regression
[15:50] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: otp
[15:51] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: mind if I ask the reason for the drop of lua from nginx-extras for the MIR? (one of the Debian maintainers is curious)
[15:52] <TheLordOfTime> (unless I missed policy somewhere, which sometimes happens since there's so much to track >.>)
[15:52] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: because lua is in universe. Source packages in main cannot build-dep on packages in universe.
[15:54] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: that's what i suspected, wasn't sure.
[15:56] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: there is a decent bit of usage of the lua plugin in nginx, if anything, -extras might just be left in universe...
[15:57] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: honestly, I'd rather *not* have to have the server team maintain -extras, there's third-party plugins that not even the nginx team truly maintains
[15:57] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: unfortunately we can't do that. The source must be buildable entirely without universe.
[15:57] <TheLordOfTime> and are causing issues (case in point Debian Bug 732251)
[15:57] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: or, we need to pull lua into main. I think that's unlikely though.
[15:58] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: if neither of those options is likely, we're likely to see a lot more bugs about the lack of a lua module
[15:58] <rbasak> jackweirdy: o/
[15:58] <TheLordOfTime> which means ultimately for those bugs we're going to have to Won'tFix those and say "Use the nginx team PPA if you want the Lua module"
[15:58] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: unfortunately that's a cost of having a "support everything!" package in main.
[15:58] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: you speak truth.
[15:59] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: Debian can complain, but as long as the nginx team PPAs end up having whatever Debian has in it I don't think they'll make a huge fuss about it
[16:00] <TheLordOfTime> assuming you don't mind the perpetual deviation from bug triage policy for "no lua" bugs and me having to send people over to use the nginx team PPA while at the same time marking "Won't Fix" on any "Please include the lua module" or similar bugs.
[16:01] <TheLordOfTime> (ultimately, that makes my job easier for triaging either way)
[16:01] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: otp. Will respond in a bit.
[16:05] <jamespage> TheLordOfTime, rbasak: if we want to keep -extras its probably possible to have a second source package still in universe that builds those
[16:05] <jamespage> but its an overhead I'd rather avoid
[16:06] <TheLordOfTime> jamespage: workaround is as i said, direct people who are annoyed about the lack of Lua in main-included nginx to the team's ppas, which aren't part of main...
[16:06] <TheLordOfTime> s/team/nginx team/
[16:07] <TheLordOfTime> but that's just a measure to get people off our case, according to Debian maintainers, there is moderate use of the lua plugin in -extras
[16:07]  * TheLordOfTime personally only uses nginx-full because he doesn't need the extra crap in -extras, but meh
[16:29] <hallyn_> jdstrand: i'm not sure where that regression is being introduced then.  The disk device is still being removed from the domain before security_apparmor.c:reload_profile() is called, so I woudl *expect* it to do the right thing...
[16:41] <jdstrand> hallyn_: did they refactor the security hooks in some way? in the distant past, there were changes made that seemed ok but only actually worked for selinux because it uses on disk labelling and we use dynamic labelling
[16:43] <hallyn_> jdstrand: not sure.  i'll have to dig (and am afraid i may not have time)
[16:43] <hallyn_> jdstrand: would you say it's ok to push libvirt 1.2 with that regression and keep a bug open about it?
[16:44] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: I think you summarised everything well. For "no lua" bugs, we can just mark them as dupes of a won't fix bug which has an explanation and pointers to alternatives (eg. a PPA).
[16:45] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: assuming the MIR is accepted, and nginx migrates to main with the lua drop, would it hurt for me to create the bug that we can mark the others as a dupe of after that, or should I just wait for people to start complaining
[16:45] <TheLordOfTime> (because the complaining *usually* ends up in my email first >.>)
[16:45] <rbasak> TheLordOfTime: preempting emails and creating a bug in advance is absolutely fine.
[16:45] <jdstrand> hallyn_: so long as it gets fixed before release, sure. the thing is, if you detach a device from one vm and attach the same device to another vm, the apparmor profile still allows access to it so we break enforcement of vm isolation
[16:45] <TheLordOfTime> mmkay, i'll add that to my todo list if the MIR is approved and nginx migrates over.
[16:46] <jdstrand> hallyn_: I'd definitely put it into the 'High' category and targeted for trusty
[16:46] <hallyn_> jdstrand: yup
[16:47] <hallyn_> zul: ^ go ahead and push libvirt when you're happy with it.  I'll push a fix for the regression hopfully on monday.
[16:47] <hallyn_> zul: (and lemme know when you push so i can open a bug for the regression0
[16:49] <hallyn_> eh i'll just open the bug now
[16:49] <hallyn_> ere i forget
[16:51] <zul> hallyn_:  the problem with libvirt-python is that going to be stuck in new unless we get an archive admin to look at it today
[16:51] <zul> jdstrand:  can you review libvirt-python for me so we dont break the new libvirt im going to be uploading?
[16:52] <jdstrand> zul: review? what do you mean?
[16:52] <jdstrand> zul: do you mean deNEW?
[16:52] <zul> jdstrand:  source new
[16:52] <jdstrand> zul: libvirt-python is a new source?
[16:52] <zul> jdstrand:  it is
[16:53] <hallyn_> jdstrand: upstream split it up into two packages
[16:53] <jdstrand> weird
[16:53] <zul> jdstrand:  what hallyn_  said
[16:53] <jdstrand> anyway, won't things break because it'll also need a MIR?
[16:53] <zul> it needs a MIR yes
[16:54] <zul> hallyn_:  im uploading it noew
[16:55] <zul> jdstrand:  should be a simple package to review
[16:55] <jdstrand> zul: ok, I might not be able to do it immediately
[16:56] <zul> jdstrand:  ok
[16:56] <zul> hallyn_/jdstrand: im going to wait until libvirt-python is reviewed before uploading libvirt 1.2
[16:57] <jdstrand> zul: can you file a mir bug-- it doesn't have to do the whole rigamarole for MIR. just say that it is a package split and all the code was in the archive before
[16:57] <zul> jdstrand:  sure
[16:57] <jdstrand> zul: well, assuming that is true of course :) if it isn't, please follow MIR procedure
[16:57] <zul> jdstrand:  it is
[16:57] <hallyn_> zul: sounds good, thanks
[17:00] <zul> hallyn_/jdstrand: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libvirt/+bug/1262758
[17:10] <zul> jamespage:  still around?
[17:10] <jamespage> zul, yes
[17:11] <zul> jamespage:  so there is a couple of patches for django 1.6 and horizon in gerrit maybe we should grab them
[17:26] <jamespage> zul, +1
[17:31] <zul> jamespage:  i added savanna to the lab
[17:34] <_root_> anyone can help me with this?  http://askubuntu.com/questions/393067/php-fpm-eating-memory-creating-many-pools
[18:29] <sarnold> _root_: are all those extra threads actually causing any harm?
[18:46] <TheLordOfTime> sarnold: i think he's concerned about RAM usage
[18:46] <TheLordOfTime> sarnold: i'm also pretty certain that he should turn on "Color threads differently" in his htop
[18:47] <TheLordOfTime> so that we can see what're actually threads and what're actually processes
[18:47] <sarnold> TheLordOfTime: could be; if so, running 'smem' would be worthwhile..
[18:47] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: mind if I borrow your debdiff on the MIR, and add to it to remove the Lua part in the package description, or should I wait for the MIR to be done/worked on/approved ?
[18:50] <TheLordOfTime> rbasak: oh, also, your debdiff fails to include the current delta we have in Ubuntu, is that a problem?
[20:37] <adam_g> jamespage, in case you're still around before the holiday, i just proposed the 2013.2.1 branch updates. was hoping to push the packages to saucy-proposed queue before i break
[21:59] <toyotapie> Is there anyway to see the memory type from within linux ? dmesg was not forthcoming
[22:08] <patdk-wk_> toyotapie, lshw
[22:15] <toyotapie> can lshw tell the difference between Registered DIMMs and unbuffered with ECC?
[22:31] <mic__> hello, does the partman in 12.04.3LTS server installer understand 4k drives?
[22:31] <sarnold> toyotapie: if it can't, try also dmidecode
[22:31] <mic__> I cannot confirm - and the installation media has NO fdisk :S
[22:32] <sarnold> mic__: perhaps gdisk?
[22:32] <mic__> mic__: but I am about to install ubuntu server from the CD
[22:33] <mic__> mic__: I try fdisk, parted etc. - none of these are included
[22:33] <mic__> sarnold: sorry ;)
[22:33] <mic__> sarnold: small mistype ;)
[22:33] <mic__> sarnold: so it's utterly hard to verify it during installation. And the performance penalty is very very big...
[22:34] <sarnold> mic__: yeah, you wouldn't want to screw that up. :)
[22:34] <mic__> sarnold: but who decided to remove fdisk from the install media? ;) for a server install! ;)
[22:35] <sarnold> mic__: I assume it'd be someone who knew that fdisk couldn't handle AF drives or GPT formatting and would just muck things up. that's just a guess though :)
[22:36] <TheLordOfTime> hmm... i have a question regarding MIRs, who do i poke today...
[22:36] <TheLordOfTime> other than rbasak, i ping him enough
[22:45] <mic__> this is ridiculous.
[22:45] <mic__> :(
[22:48] <mic__> and the rescue system has fdisk, sfdisk and all that jazz.
[23:39] <fdr-> Hello, has anyone else noticed that the us-west apt mirror is having an issue I think:
[23:39] <fdr-> "W: Failed to fetch bzip2:/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/us-west-2.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_precise-updates_main_source_Sources  Hash Sum mismatch"
[23:40] <fdr-> I've had this happen a few times when using "ami-8635a9b6"
[23:43] <sarnold> fdr-: are you perchance using apt-cacher-ng?
[23:51] <fdr-> sarnold: not that I know of
[23:51] <fdr-> I also booted a fresh system a few times today to try this out (an image burning process I wanted to run in the background)
[23:51] <fdr-> Other regions seem okay in the same program


[14:30] <cpaelzer> hiho
[14:30] <cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
[14:30] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 15 14:30:17 2020 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:30] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[14:30] <cpaelzer> ping to ddstreet (excused today) doko_ didrocks999 jamespage sarnold
[14:31] <sarnold> good morning
[14:32] <cpaelzer> hi sarnold
[14:32] <cpaelzer> let us get started and hope the others will join or already read
[14:32] <cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
[14:33] <cpaelzer> I have had an action a few weeks ago that is partially resolved
[14:33] <cpaelzer> I wanted to look into some of the germinate for some false-positives
[14:33] <cpaelzer> ddstreet has taken one into a bug for probert back then
[14:33] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/probert/+bug/1890301
[14:33] <cpaelzer> I ahve four updates to that
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #1
[14:34] <cpaelzer> The usual output of germinate was i386 only (very misleading)
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #link  https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.groovy/_germinate_output
[14:34] <cpaelzer> now this is running amd64 (thanks cjwatson)
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #2
[14:34] <cpaelzer> Furthermore the real truth is neither of these architectures, but the superset of all combined.
[14:34] <cpaelzer> Thanks to Laney we now have the germinate log of all of them at:
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/extra-germinate-output
[14:34] <cpaelzer> With that we finally could explain probert-network.
[14:34] <cpaelzer> It had "probert-storage | probert" and the former isn't on i386
[14:34] <cpaelzer> So it selected the latter, but at the same time - on i386 - there is no probert-network.
[14:34] <cpaelzer> paride will fix up the seeds (thanks) for probert to have them do what we want
[14:34] <cpaelzer> ddstreet: so the bug will be fixed soon and also is finally fully understood
[14:34] <cpaelzer> and finally
[14:34] <sarnold> oh nice!
[14:34] <didrocks999> yeah, this all combined thing is always puzzling
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #3
[14:34] <cpaelzer> Germinate output was non reproducible
[14:34] <cpaelzer> Also it did not include architecture on the log messages which was misleading
[14:34] <cpaelzer> Once the following lands this will be good as well:
[14:34] <cpaelzer> #link https://code.launchpad.net/~paelzer/germinate/+git/germinate/+merge/390466
[14:35] <cpaelzer> so a few MPs to land and things will be even better
[14:35] <cpaelzer> finally one bug I had to file which is in germinate
[14:35] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/germinate/+bug/1895011
[14:35] <cpaelzer> that is what e.g. shows esmtp for now
[14:35] <cpaelzer> overall major steps forward
[14:35] <doko_> hi
[14:35] <cpaelzer> just wanted to keep you updated on the progress we made
[14:35] <cpaelzer> hi doko_
[14:36] <cpaelzer> I don't remember other open action items (other than assigned reviews)
[14:36] <cpaelzer> let us look at mismatches first as usual
[14:36] <cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
[14:36] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
[14:36] <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
[14:36] <didrocks999> there is still gnome-software, but we’ll give a seed fix a try for this beforehand
[14:36] <cpaelzer> doko_: we have kept the lintian ->*perl* cases for you as usually you take them - would you this time as well?
[14:37] <cpaelzer> thanks didrocks999 for an update on that one
[14:37] <cpaelzer> esmtp I just mentioned to be a known fale positive
[14:37] <doko_> that's a big effort keeping it open for a few weeks ;p
[14:37] <cpaelzer> pi-bluetooth from raspi-common-seed - probably for waveform
[14:37] <cpaelzer> hehe
[14:38] <doko_> ok, will look at those
[14:38] <cpaelzer> doko_: can you check with waveform in the foundations meeting what the plan on this one (pi-bluetooth) is and let us know next week?
[14:38] <cpaelzer> the other two there have open MIRs we get to later
[14:38] <doko_> ok
[14:38] <cpaelzer> ipp, octavia, sqlalchemy, .. all known in progress
[14:38] <cpaelzer> as is shim-canonical
[14:39] <cpaelzer> didrocks: I guess you still couldn't agree with the kernel team for khronos-opencl?
[14:39] <didrocks> cpaelzer: didn’t hear from the management, despite several pings…
[14:39] <didrocks> kind of helpless, I’ll ping apw directly on this
[14:39] <cpaelzer> ok
[14:39] <cpaelzer> also google-guest is in mismatches-proposed that will be a topic later on when we talk about new&incomplete bugs
[14:40] <cpaelzer> ok that was mismatches, no further assignments out of those
[14:40] <cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
[14:40] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[14:40] <cpaelzer> Thee to assign people to
[14:40] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/raspberrypi-userland/+bug/1895133
[14:41] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rpi-eeprom/+bug/1895137
[14:41] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ostree/+bug/1892454
[14:41] <cpaelzer> didrocks: the latter you looked at already
[14:41] <cpaelzer> that we set back to new and is from desktop'ish scope
[14:41] <cpaelzer> would you look at that (again)?
[14:41] <didrocks> cpaelzer: I pinged Robert to get the right team subscribed before looking at the MIR, the status was reverted without subcription :/
[14:41]  * didrocks will handle it
[14:41] <cpaelzer> thanks
[14:42] <cpaelzer> rpi-eeprom I'd take - eeproms are always messy in some way and will be interesting
[14:42] <cpaelzer> raspberrypi-userland anyone?
[14:42] <cpaelzer> ddstreet: isn't here today so he can't say yes/no but I know he has one assignment left of those last week
[14:42] <cpaelzer> and will get to it once back
[14:43] <cpaelzer> doko_: and me already got tasks today
[14:43] <doko_> ok, I'll take it
[14:43] <cpaelzer> I know sarnold got some security reviews for google-agent which is  a topic to come
[14:43] <cpaelzer> ...
[14:43] <cpaelzer> really, ok
[14:43] <didrocks> I can have a look if you want
[14:43] <cpaelzer> I was trying to force jamespage to say yes
[14:43] <didrocks> ahah :)
[14:43] <cpaelzer> doko_: is the winner this time
[14:44] <cpaelzer> there will be more work didrocks :-)
[14:44] <didrocks> noooooooooooooooooo
[14:44] <didrocks> :)
[14:44] <sarnold> there is *always* more work :)
[14:44] <cpaelzer> doko_: I assigned you and me accordingly
[14:44] <cpaelzer> true sarnold
[14:44] <cpaelzer> ok that seems to be the new queue
[14:44] <cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
[14:44] <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
[14:45] <cpaelzer> two big blocks
[14:45] <cpaelzer> block #1 is
[14:45] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/google-guest-agent/+bug/1891929
[14:45] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/golang-golang-x-oauth2/+bug/1894731
[14:45] <cpaelzer> first of all I really want to thank all of you for helping to churn through so many review tasks so quickly
[14:46] <cpaelzer> didrocks: ddstreet: in particular - thanks
[14:46] <cpaelzer> this case is now blocked on the following
[14:46] <cpaelzer> 7 are done for MIR - 5 of those on security now
[14:47] <cpaelzer> another 5 were parially reviewed but identified work for the foundations team and rbalint is aware of them
[14:47] <cpaelzer> the decisions if/how to handle these might be anywhere from
[14:47] <cpaelzer> a) cut down the current dependencies a bit
[14:47] <cpaelzer> to
[14:47] <cpaelzer> b) add another 20 tasks
[14:47] <cpaelzer> to c) stop the MIR entirely
[14:47] <didrocks> I think none of the 3 are tempting :p
[14:48] <didrocks> also, I bet upstream is testing with different versions of those libs than the archive
[14:48] <cpaelzer> we will close out the remaining assigned tasks which is 1x ddstreet
[14:48] <cpaelzer> didrocks: I have brought up the concern of testing across a different set of versions in my reviews and in feedback to the future owners of this stack
[14:49] <cpaelzer> we will not proactively burst through the other 20 packages unless rbalint / foundations asks us for it
[14:49] <cpaelzer> so for now we wait on their feedback
[14:49] <didrocks> agreed
[14:49] <cpaelzer> but as I said rbalint is aware, but I wanted to make sure you are all as well
[14:49] <didrocks> just for completleness, I think there is a d) (or you accounted that in a) ) which is vendoring
[14:49] <cpaelzer> yes
[14:49] <cpaelzer> the permanent go-curse
[14:49] <didrocks> yep :)
[14:50] <cpaelzer> second context to mention here is
[14:50] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcsc-lite/+bug/1892559
[14:50] <cpaelzer> opened by sarnold
[14:50] <cpaelzer> afaics security tries to reduce the number of required packages before going further - is that correct sarnold?
[14:50] <rbalint> thank you all for the work already done on the MIRs around google-guest-agent
[14:51] <cpaelzer> yw rbalint
[14:51] <cpaelzer> rbalint: just to be sure - you are ok that we go back from panic-mode to wait-for-feedback-mode on this one right?
[14:51] <sarnold> cpaelzer: I believe pcsc-tools and libpcsc-perl were removed, which helps quite a lot :)
[14:51] <cpaelzer> yes they were
[14:52] <cpaelzer> sarnold: pcsc-lite would need to be fulyl evaluated
[14:52] <cpaelzer> sarnold: it was in main without actual inspection in the far past
[14:52] <cpaelzer> I asked if you could take a look and if you agree add that properly
[14:53] <cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcsc-lite/+bug/1892559/comments/7 + https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcsc-lite/+bug/1892559/comments/9
[14:53] <cpaelzer> joy said you need it in comment #12
[14:53] <cpaelzer> so I think we should add it properly
[14:53] <sarnold> what does "add it properly" mean?
[14:54] <cpaelzer> means: do the pre-checks as when filing a MIR task and if all looks sane set the task back to new
[14:54] <sarnold> cpaelzer: aha! then I think I missed the 'set it back to new' then :)
[14:54] <sarnold> cpaelzer: I added the prechceks to the description in comment #3
[14:55] <cpaelzer> indeed
[14:55] <cpaelzer> let us set it back then and I'll assign myself to get you going there
[14:55] <sarnold> thanks
[14:55] <cpaelzer> ok that is it on incompletes
[14:55] <cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
[14:56] <cpaelzer> that already was a lot of content
[14:56] <didrocks> that’s enough for me (FYI, ostree/libflatpak is definitively in the TODO list now for me)
[14:56] <cpaelzer> but a) this is the phase of the cycle it always is and b) I'm happy to see that the MIR team seems to work effectively (looking back people didn't always have the impression)
[14:56] <cpaelzer> yeah didrocks
[14:57] <didrocks> thanks for coordinating this effectively cpaelzer :)
[14:57] <sarnold> yes :)
[14:57] <cpaelzer> ok it seems we all hav ework :-) see you next week then
[14:57] <didrocks> see you!
[14:57] <cpaelzer> #endmeeting
[14:57] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 15 14:57:36 2020 UTC.
[14:57] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-09-15-14.30.moin.txt
[14:57] <sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)


 As I understand it, the problem is not in a specific network manager but in the conflict between two network managers. As you have the skills and knowledge to evaluate better, see which of the two to keep. All the best!
 Thanks Jyoti :)
 great work
 im about to run some tests for 18.04
 Nice :)
[12:24] <neyder> hello, testing alternate installer without network, and if i put fdqn like: hostname.sub.domain.tld it warns that it's invalid, since other test (with network) showed me as valid. I selected "do not configure network" at this time. If i put only hostname (not fqdn) it follows straigh
[12:25] <neyder> thats a feature or bug?
 File a bug? :)
[12:28] <neyder> will try again with network, but waiting to finish-
 Ok
[12:31] <neyder> tried, yup it only happens with "do not configure network"
[12:39] <neyder> which project i should report? drop-down menu shows: L-Artwork, L-Next, L-SoftCenter, L-Tweaks. LxFind, Lxscreenshot ???
[12:44] <neyder> forgot, I find debian-installer
[12:44] <neyder> tsimonq2: do you sleep?
 @neyder, Sometimes. :P
[13:10] <neyder> checked with ubiquity and you can put FQDN
[13:10] <neyder> with no network
 Hmm
[13:19] <neyder> bug filed :D
 Link?
[13:20] <neyder> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1766247
 Maybe ask infinity and/or cjwatson in #ubuntu-devel
[13:50] <neyder> have anyone tested libreoffice writer in lubuntu, it shuts down after load
[13:50] <wxl> it's been reported but i don't know that it's a lubuntu only problem
[13:50] <neyder> kubuntu runs ok
[14:01] <wxl> neyder: that may be because it's a qt/gtk difference
[14:01] <wxl> neyder: if that's true, it should work in lxqt and fail in e.g. xubuntu
 good point
[14:06] <wxl> i mean it COULD be a lubuntu-only issue but those are quite rare. i remain skeptical
[15:33] <BionicMac> I wanted to say "Thanks!" to all the folks involved in producing Lubuntu. It has given my old IBM ThinkCentre (oldISH hardware) server a shiny facelift. First time I have used a GUI on this old machine. Perfect!
[15:35] <BionicMac> I am currently volunteering my time to test your Lubuntu-18.04 RC on qatracker. So far I have finished three test-case scenarios. Thanks again for the excellent Distro.
 Awesome!
 https://lubuntu.me/this-week-in-lubuntu-development-4/


[10:06] <sophomeric> I just uploaded a new new package to https://launchpad.net/~researchgate/+archive/ubuntu/nginx-dev/ and got a rejection that it already exists. It's the first upload of a new version, so I'm not sure why it says it exists already?
[10:07] <sophomeric> You'll see 1.9.13 there, and I just pushed 1.9.15 but got "File nginx_1.9.15.orig.tar.gz already exists in Primary Archive for Ubuntu, but uploaded version has different contents".
[10:11] <cjwatson> sophomeric: Right, if the source exists in the primary Ubuntu archive then files can't have the same name but different contents.
[10:11] <cjwatson> sophomeric: Just fetch nginx_1.9.15.orig.tar.gz from Ubuntu and use that to build your source package.
[10:14] <sophomeric> Ah, okay. Just the first time I've hit that and I've been doing this same build process for awhile.
[10:15] <sophomeric> You can see a nginx_1.9.13.orig.tar.gz on the existing build I have there.
[10:19] <cjwatson> sophomeric: Sure.  But when you uploaded that, 1.9.13 hadn't yet been uploaded to Ubuntu, so there was no conflict.
[10:19] <cjwatson> sophomeric: In this case Ubuntu had it first.
[10:20] <cjwatson> sophomeric: There's usually no point in having a different orig from Ubuntu.  In general orig files ought to be downloaded directly from upstream, not built yourself.
[10:23] <sophomeric> Well it's generated from checking out the 1.9.15 tag of nginx's github source =P
[10:23] <sophomeric> I'm not trying to argue btw, it's just a little weird and I'm curious.
[10:24] <sophomeric> Does that mean Ubuntu go the same message when they tried to push 1.9.13 after me? :D
[10:25] <cjwatson> No, we don't block Ubuntu on PPAs, only the other way round.
[10:26] <cjwatson> Generating it from checking out the tag won't give you a bitwise-identical tarball.  There are tarballs on nginx.org.
[10:27] <cjwatson> Ubuntu uses http://nginx.org/download/nginx-1.9.15.tar.gz
[10:36] <sophomeric> Well it's a little harder to track your changes in a fork then though.
[10:37] <cjwatson> Uh
[10:37] <cjwatson> Those go in the packaging delta, surely.
[10:37] <cjwatson> Or else give it a different version number.
[10:38] <cjwatson> I mean a different upstream version number.
[10:38] <cjwatson> If the orig.tar.gz part of your source package is identical to upstream 1.9.15, then use their tarballs.  Otherwise, call it 1.9.15+sophomeric1-0ubuntu1 or similar.  There isn't a middle ground.
[10:40] <sophomeric> Yeah, that's what I'm going to do for now at least.
[12:24] <sophomeric> Maybe this is a silly question, but is there a trick to get launchpad to build against openssl 1.0.2?
[12:32] <cjwatson> sophomeric: Supply suitable packages in your PPA or in some other PPA you declare as a dependency.
[12:36] <sophomeric> Thanks. I didn't realize I was getting that from a PPA already =/
[12:36] <sophomeric> I had libssl-dev in build-depends, which was 1.0.2 on my environment but it kept coming out of launchpad linked to 1.0.0
[12:38] <cjwatson> sophomeric: It will be coming from the primary Ubuntu archive, but you can override it in your PPA if you want.
[18:20] <oparoz_> Hi all, the builders seems to have lots of proxy problems today. Is it just because of the release of 16.04?
[18:36] <oparoz_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1573184
[18:36] <ubot5`> Launchpad bug 1573184 in Launchpad itself "git clone in builders lead to proxy error 407" [Undecided,New]
[21:07] <est31> is it possible to use external git repositories for bzr-builder?
[21:11] <dobey> you mean for recipe builds? no, but you can import them into a bzr branch on launchpad, or wait for git->git import
[21:16] <est31> yeah currently we have an imported bzr branch
[21:16] <est31> but there is this bug with signed git commits
[21:16] <est31> they break the whole import
[22:45] <est31> dobey, is there a tracker bug for git->git import?


[07:46] <apachelogger> nono, expiration averted. I shall remain master of the universe forevermore
[07:50] <valorie> excellent
[08:32] <Riddell> hola
[08:39] <alket> hi
[09:27] <Sick_Rimmit> Good morning lovely Kubuntu folks
[10:33] <tsdgeos> Riddell: what's the deal with 14.12 beta 2? i only got the kolf package updated :D
[10:34] <tsdgeos> Riddell: also the new Plasma 5 doesn't get a "logo" if i'm using lightdm (the unity frontend)
[10:34] <Riddell> tsdgeos: I've only done that 1 package, I really wanted to see the new features in kolf
[10:35] <Riddell> tsdgeos: or more truthfully that was a simple example so I can confirm with Debian and everyone that it's done the right way
[10:35] <tsdgeos> i hope the new translations of the desktop files please you :)
[10:35] <Riddell> is something different there?
[10:36] <Riddell> tsdgeos: bug 1393370 reported
[10:37] <_Groo_> hi/2 all
[10:37] <_Groo_> is https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ci/+archive/ubuntu/unstable-daily working? the last "daily" build was 3 days ago
[10:39] <Riddell> _Groo_: I think there's been some build failures so they haven't gone into that archive
[10:39] <_Groo_> Riddell: ah ok then :)
[10:48] <Riddell> jmux: I'm giving a wee talk about Kubuntu, can you tell me if the updated version is rolled out in Munich?
[10:54] <jmux> Riddell: I don't understand your question?! We'll rollout 12.04 with KDE 4.12.x - that's still in test until end of month. I have no idea about the productive rollout - not my department.
[10:56] <Riddell> jmux: thanks that's what I wanted to know
[11:04] <Riddell> apachelogger: where the crash showing website?
[12:16] <apachelogger> Riddell errors.ubuntu
[13:20] <ScottK> Riddell: Looking at the LivdFS build failure logs, it looks like ktorrent is going to have to go unless someone produces a Plasma 5 port.
[13:20] <ScottK> There's also an oddity with kactivities I didn't figure out yet.
[13:21] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[13:40] <Riddell> ScottK: mm depends on libkworkspace4abi2
[13:40] <Riddell> I'll see if it can built without it
[13:41] <ScottK> OK.  But consider once you've done that if we'd be better of just using qbittorrent for now.
[13:41] <Riddell> ScottK: I've not tried it, what's it like?
[13:41] <ScottK> I haven't either, but it seems well maintained in Debian and upstream is active, so it's promising.
[13:42] <ScottK> (I can't remember the last time I did any kind of torrent, so I'm not the right guy to check)
[13:42] <Riddell> ktorrent is pretty good and featureful but it does suffer from the kde stereotype of filling the ui with everything you might ever consider wanting
[13:42] <Riddell> but how do you watch the new series of Dr Who?
[13:43] <ScottK> Don't.  I chose to have children instead of watching TV.
[13:50] <Riddell> I'd have thought one of the advantages of having children is to have an excuse to watch dr who :)
[13:51] <ScottK> Once she's a little older.
[14:20] <sgclark> morning
[14:21] <soee> hi sgclark
[14:29] <Riddell> hola sgclark
[15:44] <Riddell> removing homerun from the archive, it needs plasma 4
[15:45] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks for fixing ktorrent.
[15:45] <ScottK> That just leaves kactivities to sort out.
[15:46] <Riddell> ScottK: what needs sorted with kactivities?
[15:46] <ScottK> Riddell: kactivities : Conflicts: libkactivities-bin but 4:4.13.3-0ubuntu2 is to be installed
[15:46] <Riddell> shadeslayer: removing plasma-widget-fastuserswitch from the archive, it needs plasma 4 (you packaged it says changelog)
[15:46] <ScottK> Not sure what's pulling libkactivities-bin in.
[15:48] <Riddell> kactivities is kf5 and libkactivities-bin is kde4, they will conflict, upstream insisted on it for some reason but anything that works with old stuff should work with new stuff
[15:48] <Riddell> ScottK: where are you seeing this?
[15:48] <ScottK> Riddell: In the LiveFS build failure log from last nigh.
[15:48] <ScottK> night
[15:48] <ScottK> Ah.  Looks like you don't get them.
[15:49] <ScottK> Just forwarded it to you.
[15:49] <ScottK> You might want to get yourself on distro for those.
[15:49] <Riddell> I think I get enough e-mail as it is!
[15:50] <ScottK> It only mails when it fails.
[15:50] <Riddell> they might be the same problem of course, ktorrent might want to bring in libkdeworkspace which wants kactivities-bin
[15:51] <shadeslayer> Riddell: fine by me
[15:53] <Riddell> hmm, maybe it's libkactivities6 which recommends kactivities-bin and is used by dolphin and several other important bits
[15:53] <ScottK> That seems more likely.
[15:53] <tsdgeos> qt slipping alrady :/
[15:54] <ScottK> I think the KDE4 stuff has to stop using kactivities-bin
[15:55] <Riddell> three cheers for mitya57 who just got into core-dev!
[15:55] <Riddell> tsdgeos: pardon?
[15:55] <tsdgeos> "* Unfortunately we don't have rc packages available at the moment --> Cannot release rc Tue 18th Nov as planned"
[15:56] <Riddell> tsdgeos: ah, upstream are slipping their schedule?
[15:56] <tsdgeos> yep
[15:58] <Riddell> I guess plasma 5.2 will want qt 5.3 then, the question is what's best for kubuntu shipping in april
[15:59] <ScottK> Riddell: I'm pretty sure we want to ship the Qt5 that KDE is willing to support Plasma/KF5 on.
[16:00] <Riddell> ScottK: I'll make libkactivities6 (kde4 lib) recommend kactivities (plasma5 binaries) instead of kactivites-bin (kde4 binaries)
[16:00] <ScottK> Will that actually work correctly?
[16:00] <Riddell> ScottK: and as upstream plasma release dude I also have to work out what Qt version Plasma wants
[16:01] <Riddell> ScottK: yes it should be fine, it's all backwards compatible promises the upstream maintainer
[16:01] <ScottK> Right.  So figure that out and you'll know the Kubuntu answer.
[16:01] <ScottK> Cool.  Sounds like the right fix then.
[16:01] <ScottK> Then the KDE4 package can be removed too, right?
[16:02] <Riddell> ScottK: the source package can't be removed, it still needs to build libkactivities6 (kde4 lib)
[16:03] <Riddell> ScottK: I guess we could update it to not build kactivites-bin (kde4 binaries)
[16:03] <ScottK> I think that'd be good.  Harder to have something accidentally use it in the future that way.
[16:03] <Riddell> what a lot of faff just to support Sick_Rimmit and his love of activities :)
[16:04] <ScottK> I still haven't figured out how they work or what they are good for.
[16:05] <Riddell> you should watch Sick_Rimmit's presentation from friday
[16:05] <Riddell> although it didn't manage to convince me either
[16:06] <Riddell> but I guess if you like to separate your life into home/work/setup for children/setup to watch dr who then it would be handy
[16:06] <ScottK> I guess.
[16:07] <ScottK> I have different computers/user accounts mostly for stuff like that.
[16:09] <Riddell> ok uploaded
[16:09] <Riddell> now if only a friendly archive admin would review sddm we might get working images tomorrow
[16:11] <mitya57> Thanks Riddell!
[16:12] <Riddell> oh we also need a friendly archive admin to approve the owncloud update https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text= bug 1384355
[16:12] <Riddell> well ~ubuntu-sru person
[16:22] <Riddell> tsdgeos: I'm a bit confused by kwebkitpart in https://www.kde.org/info/security/advisory-20141113-1.txt, am I right in thinking that isn't used any more?
[16:23] <tsdgeos> define "anymore"
[16:23] <tsdgeos> ii  kpart-webkit                                          1.3.4-1                                       amd64        WebKit KPart
[16:26] <Riddell> ah, a kpart used by konqueror
[16:26] <Riddell> thanks
[16:44] <ScottK> Riddell: Someone gets to try again on sddm.
[16:45] <ScottK> Full license text for CC BY 3.0 and COPYING-CMAKE-SCRIPTS  missing.
[16:48] <Riddell> fun fun, thanks
[16:49] <Riddell> I wonder why cc-sa-by isn't in common-licences by now
[16:54] <ScottK> Even if it was, you still need a copy in the tarball.  That just makes debian/copyright shorter.
[16:55] <Riddell> no you don't, colin's been pretty clear upstream doesn't have to ship the full licence if they don't want to as long as it's clear what it refers to
[16:56] <Riddell> but definately worth doing
[16:57]  * Sick_Rimmit spots discussion about KDE Activities... He LOVES EM
[16:59] <Riddell> Sick_Rimmit: but are they better than virtual desktops?
[17:00] <Sick_Rimmit> Yes, and the reason for this is they give you a completely independent workspace, and can be configured to be up and running with a default application set if you so wish
[17:00] <Sick_Rimmit> You can wake them up and put them to sleep as and when you need them.
[17:03] <Riddell> Sick_Rimmit: but are they better than different system users?
[17:04] <Sick_Rimmit> Well the context is dramatically different there.
[17:04] <Sick_Rimmit> Different system users create data isolation
[17:04] <_Groo_> could anyone point me to a good howto on how to make recipes for launchpad?
[17:04] <Sick_Rimmit> Activities represent the different contexts of your daily workflow, rather then complete separation
[17:05] <Riddell> ah so maybe that is a better solution to watching dr who without your children knowing
[17:06] <Sick_Rimmit> They're very good for chatting on IRC at work, whilst looking like you coding on the internal database :-)
[17:06] <Riddell> :)
[17:11] <Riddell> d__ed: http://starsky.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/sddm.diff
[17:15] <Riddell> ScottK: upstream sddm d__ed says he'll merge that patch to fix the licencing can I upload it again adding CC into debian/copyright? I don't think there's any need for a new upstream tar
[17:15] <ScottK> Can you just do a quick repack to add the licenses?
[17:15] <ScottK> The tarball by itself is supposed to be distributable.
[17:22] <Riddell> oh I see a further problem, CC-BY confused with CC-BY-SA
[17:23] <Riddell> and as a side note I see there's CC 4.0 now, guess I should do some reading
[17:43] <Linnak> Hi, Is it a config file where I can reduce tha application launcher menu's delay?
[17:44] <Riddell> ScottK: sddm uploaded with repacked tar with licence fixese
[17:44] <ScottK> Thanks.
[17:44] <Riddell> Linnak: user support in #kubuntu thanks
[17:45] <Linnak> I've asked for a couple of days. They have no idea about that
[17:46] <Linnak> I thought here are the people who have the knowledge
[17:46] <ScottK> Don't see it yet.
[17:46] <ScottK> You might also ask on #kde.  There's nothing Kubuntu specific about that.
[17:47] <Linnak> ok
[17:50] <Riddell> upstream bug for sddm licences https://github.com/sddm/sddm/issues/318
[17:51] <Riddell> ScottK: if you're in a helpful mood today remember the owncloud SRU update, it's pretty easy to review just fixes an issue with the previous SRU that's in -proposed https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
[17:51] <ScottK> Riddell: I don't see the licenses in the tarball.
[17:51] <ScottK> Riddell: Running short on time.  Focusing on sddm.
[17:52] <Riddell> -rw-rw-r-- jr/a          19400 2014-11-17 18:35 sddm-0.10.0+dfsg1/COPYING-CC-BY-3.0
[17:52] <Riddell> -rw-rw-r-- jr/a          22164 2014-11-17 18:35 sddm-0.10.0+dfsg1/COPYING-CC-BY-SA-3.0
[17:52] <Riddell> ScottK: you see those? ↑
[17:52] <ScottK> No.
[17:53] <ScottK> Just the plain COPYING
[17:53] <ScottK> Look at it here in ark http://launchpadlibrarian.net/190285031/sddm_0.10.0%2Bdfsg1.orig.tar.gz
[17:53] <Riddell> ScottK: hmm not yet in queue https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/vivid/+queue
[17:54] <Riddell> maybe launchpad is still processing it
[17:54] <ScottK> Maybe I got a cached copy of the old one.
[17:59] <Riddell> ScottK: hmm dunno, maybe launchpad is just being slow cos I definately uploaded it to vivid
[17:59] <Riddell> I'm also out of time, got to go
[17:59] <Riddell> dget http://starsky.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/sddm_0.10.0+dfsg1-0ubuntu1.dsc  should you fancy a preview
[18:00] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks.  Checking with our ace new LP developer cjwatson on #launchpad.
[18:00] <ScottK> Riddell: It was usigned.
[18:01] <ScottK> Please uplaod again
[18:04] <ScottK> shadeslayer, apachelogger, some other MOTU/core-dev: Would you please grab Riddell's sddm update above and upload it.
[18:05] <ScottK> Meh.  Nevermind.
[18:05] <ScottK> Riddell: still missing COPYING-CMAKE-SCRIPTS
[18:28] <ScottK> Someone with some time might want to merge kdepimlibs and kdepim-runtime from Debian (or at least grab the patches I just added) as there's a fix there we want.
[21:54] <debfx> has anyone looked into bug #1363703 / bug #1389320?
[21:56] <debfx> looks like the init script from the virtuoso-nepomuk package (precise) causes problems
[21:57] <debfx> not sure what's the right place to fix this
[21:59] <ScottK> debfx: Isn't it supposed to run the new on if the old on fails or is that just prerm and preinst?
[22:00] <debfx> the upgrade seems to fail in sysv-rc. it probably tries to parse all init script (since the dependency boot stuff has been merged to ubunt) and chokes on this particular one.
[22:04] <ScottK> Then I guess SRU in 12.04.
[22:05] <debfx> that doesn't help for systems that have already been upgraded to trusty
[22:06] <ScottK> Then both?
[22:06] <ScottK> Is what's in 14.04 still problematic?
[22:06] <debfx> doesn't exist anymore in trusty
[22:07] <debfx> so in one particular case virtuoso-nepomuk was in rc state
[22:07] <ScottK> I see.
[22:08] <debfx> adding a quirk to the upgraded to remove the init script maybe?
[22:09] <ScottK> That or presuming virtuoso-nepomuk is still marked installed, one might add a dummy package that removes the script.