[00:06] <ricmm> hi
[00:06] <ricmm> anyone around?
[00:17] <RAOF> ricmm: Sure; best to actually ask your question, though.
[00:20] <ricmm> RAOF: seeing this with latest Mir in the phone image that runs unity-mir
[00:20] <ricmm> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5938197/
[00:20] <ricmm> catching a SIGBUS there
[00:20] <ricmm> any ideas?
[00:20] <ricmm> examples run fine
[00:24] <RAOF> Hm. Nothing obviously springs to mind.
[00:24] <RAOF> Except that SIGBUS is one of those fun errors that's only ever going to occur on armd
[00:24] <kdub_> oh hmm
[00:25] <RAOF> Oh, hey, arm guy!
[00:26] <kdub_> ricmm, we moved that code between libraries recently, perhaps something isnt updated
[00:26] <kdub_> i'll try it, one minute
[00:27] <ricmm> thanks kevin
[00:35] <ricmm> kdub_: any clues?
[00:40] <kdub_> ricmm, i'm not seeing any problems with the example programs i have
[00:40] <kdub_> not set up for the unity-mir though on this device at the moment
[00:42] <ricmm> can you think of any API changes that might've triggered this?
[00:44] <kdub_> no :/
[00:44] <kdub_> ricmm, actually, yes!
[00:45] <ricmm> :)
[00:45] <kdub_> we changed the way that the display size is handed out, perhaps there's something amiss there
[00:45] <kdub_> it should be backward-compatible though...
[00:46] <kdub_> but if something is wrong, mabye its trying to make a surface that's a nonsense size
[00:48] <ricmm> lemme catch the call to create_surface and see the params
[00:51] <ricmm> kdub_: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5938258/
[00:52] <ricmm> size looks fine, it has been working like this before
[00:52] <ricmm> depth 0 means anything?
[00:52] <kdub_> right, that looks fine
[00:54] <kdub_> depth 0 is just the stack ordering position, its ok
[00:57] <ricmm> what change with the size passing?
[00:58] <kdub_> that was a client side api change, this is an internal client, so what i mentioned probably won't affect anything
[05:20] <duflu> RAOF: ping
[05:20] <RAOF> duflu: pong
[05:20] <RAOF> Would you quite like to talk bypass?
[05:20] <duflu> RAOF: I've removed the explicit (and slightly hacky) workaround fix for the input lag bug... but suspect it might still be fixed by that branch. Can you retest?
[05:20] <duflu> RAOF: No bypass this week :(
[05:21] <RAOF> duflu: Still the "switch" branch?
[05:21] <duflu> RAOF: Yes.
[05:21] <RAOF> I'll give it a try. It may take me a little while to get to that.
[05:22] <duflu> RAOF: Actually, maybe wait. I might try to do an independent fix for that bug
[05:23] <RAOF> Excellent. The best kind of testing :)
[05:28] <duflu> RAOF: I just realized, even if my branch eliminates the cause of the bug under double buffering, it introduces triple buffering which is expected to cause the same bug. I think we need to fix the compositor...
[05:29] <RAOF> ok
[05:48] <RAOF> Ok. Who changed the mir_connection_get_display_info ABI on me?
[05:52]  * duflu points to multimonitor guys
[06:01] <RAOF> Ahem.
[06:01] <RAOF> Yes, that commit did indeed break mir_connection_get_display_info
[06:04] <RAOF> Grr. I wonder what's easier. Fixing mir_connection_get_display_info, or switching to the new API.
[06:04] <tvoss_> good morning :)
[06:04] <duflu> RAOF: Robert was right when he said "everyone forgets to bump ABIs"
[06:04] <duflu> Morning tvoss_
[06:05] <tvoss_> duflu, good morning
[06:05] <RAOF> duflu: This isn't actually a deliberate ABI break. This is just a buggy implementation of the deprecated function.
[06:09]  * RAOF 's symbol file branch wouldn't have helped here
[06:16] <RAOF> Ok. Whoever wrote the mir_connection_get_display_info was too trusting :)
[06:17] <RAOF> Ok. I'm going to go and collect something; back in 20 minutes or so. Then I'll fix this.
[06:19] <tvoss_> RAOF, see you :)
[06:19] <tvoss_> duflu, on the switch branch: Alf mentioned that it might break the mm use-case he is working on
[06:19] <tvoss_> did you have a chance to look into that?
[06:19] <duflu> tvoss_: Yes I have a fix/workaround in mind.
[06:20] <duflu> ... but still think we need a more robust solution later, as discussed with alf a while back
[06:20] <tvoss_> duflu, okay, what would be your proposal to move forward?
[06:21] <duflu> tvoss_: I'll do a fix/workaround to work with the existing mm logic today, I hope
[06:21] <duflu> Just saying I think the MM assumptions are wrong/unsafe
[06:21] <tvoss_> duflu, existing as in what alf and kdub are landing right now?
[06:22] <duflu> tvoss_: Yes I've discussed it with alf already
[06:22] <tvoss_> duflu, ack. I will grab some breakfast and be back after that
[06:22] <alf__> duflu: What's unsafe about the MM assumptions?
[06:24] <duflu> alf__: The assumption that each monitor will compositor_acquire at roughly the same time. I think we need better guarantees that it only happens once per vsync
[06:24] <duflu> But I will do a workaround in the switch branch, which should work in theory
[06:25] <alf__> duflu: the problem is that we don't have a single vsync, we have as many vsyncs as outputs
[06:26] <duflu> alf__: Yes, I know. I can probably defer the discussion if I can workaround in switch before my EOD
[06:27] <alf__> duflu: ok, I would be interested in any sane alternatives, but I don't have any in mind
[06:27] <duflu> It will be a blocker for bypass though. Which is why I've changed it...
[06:28] <alf__> duflu: I guess that indicates that it needs to be configurable. At this point it doesn't seem that we can have a one size fits all swapper.
[06:29] <duflu> alf__: I've had a few ideas. But am too rushed to revisit today. I'll try and give you a workaround in the switch branch tho
[06:29] <tvoss_> duflu, alf__ we should tackle that together on Monday morning.
[06:35] <duflu> alf__: The squashed render_surfaces issue seems to be triggered by my lazy allocation optimization. render_surfaces' RenderResourcesBufferInitializer is making the poor assumption about when it is executed, and interacting with the wrong GL context
[06:41] <duflu> alf__: So I'm wondering if I should disable the optimization or leave the render_surfaces bug for fixing separately?
[06:44] <alf__> duflu: what resource are you allocating lazily?
[06:45] <duflu> alf__: The buffers
[06:47] <duflu> alf__: Aha! Never mind. I have a simple fix
[06:58] <racarr> Strange jenkins error on no-input-for-hidden-surfaces
[06:58] <racarr> is what racarr would be wondering about if he were awake ;)
[07:00] <duflu> racarr, welcome to Friday
[07:02] <RAOF> alf__: Hey, so mir_connection_get_display_info is broken. What should I be fixing - the false assumption that config->displays[0] is always valid if num_displays > 1, or making that assumption true?
[07:07] <alf__> RAOF: the false assumption that config->displays[0] is always valid (if by valid you mean connected and used)
[07:07] <RAOF> alf__: Good, that's what I'm in the process of doing.
[07:09] <alf__> RAOF: hmm, config->displays should be config->outputs...
[07:10] <RAOF> Quite true.
[07:10] <alf__> RAOF: Do you want to wait a moment so I can fix that?
[07:11] <RAOF> Ok
[07:11] <alf__> RAOF: so you don't have to make another change soon, but whatever is more convenient for you
[07:11] <RAOF> Well, this is blocking me now, and the update will be trivial.
[07:14] <alf__> RAOF: ok, then feel free to change it now and I will ping you for an update (perhaps we need to wait until Monday to push the s/display/output/ change so we don't break everything)
[07:14] <RAOF> Ideally we'd land this at the same time.
[07:14] <RAOF> Actually, no.
[07:14] <RAOF> We're breaking ABI, so your change bumps SONAME regardless.
[07:14] <RAOF> Monday is fine.
[07:15] <alf__> RAOF: if I push the change today will it break the packages?
[07:15] <RAOF> Not any more than the packages are currently broken.
[07:16] <alf__> RAOF: (I assume so, since you won't be able to update the mesa/x again until next week)
[07:19] <alf__> RAOF: ok, either Kevin or I will have an MP ready for you. When you feel like it next week approve it and make the Mesa/X changes at your convenience.
[07:19] <RAOF> It actually doesn't change X or Mesa (at this point), so we kindof could get away with silently breaking ABI.
[07:20] <alf__> RAOF: ok, where is the breakage then?
[07:20] <RAOF> mir_connection_get_display_info segfaults
[07:20] <RAOF> Because its implementation assumes that config->displays[0] is always valid.
[07:21] <alf__> RAOF: sorry, I misunderstood the whole discussion, looking
[07:25] <alf__> RAOF: ok, feel free to make the change and we can rename afterwards (hopefully later today)
[07:25] <RAOF> Hm. We've got no tests for mir_connection_get_display_info.
[07:26] <alf__> RAOF: I am sure we had... I guess they were remove when introducing the new API
[07:26] <RAOF> Indeed.
[07:27] <RAOF> didrocks: Good morning.
[07:27] <RAOF> How goes IoM?
[07:28] <didrocks> hey RAOF!
[07:28] <didrocks> RAOF: foggy? ;)
[07:28] <didrocks> how is the other side of the planet?
[07:28] <RAOF> Darkening!
[07:35] <RAOF> alf__: https://code.launchpad.net/~raof/mir/fix-mir_connection_get_display_info/+merge/178216 is there for your viewing pleasure.
[07:38] <alf__> RAOF: a more reliable test would be to check that (.used == 1 and .connected == 1 and .current_mode < .num_modes)
[07:38] <didrocks> RAOF: btw, any luck with testing xmir/xorg and upload that to distro?
[07:38] <didrocks> (or still building?)
[07:40] <RAOF> didrocks: See conversation above. The libmirclient1 that landed this morning broke xmir.
[07:40] <RAOF> *Apart* from that, everything seems to be good to go.
[07:40] <RAOF> :)
[07:41] <didrocks> RAOF: ahah, ok, so once your MP merged, I need to repush mir to distro
[07:41] <didrocks> then you push all the crack
[07:41] <didrocks> we promote
[07:41] <didrocks> and then u-s-c
[07:49] <duflu> alf__: For future-proofing can we not test booleans against "1" ? :)
[07:49] <duflu> *"can we please not"
[07:52] <alf__> duflu: sure :)
[07:52] <RAOF> alf__: Thanks
[07:53] <robert_ancell> RAOF, hey, can you do a quick triage on bug 1206744
[07:53] <RAOF> Bah! What's happened to radeon?
[07:54] <alf__> RAOF: hmm, test failure about uninitialized variable
[07:55] <RAOF> Hm, quite true.
[07:55] <RAOF> Why didn't that error locally?
[08:04] <RAOF> Evening Zoë time.
[08:22] <duflu> Back in 20ish
[08:33] <alan_g> hikiko: you've not addressed https://code.launchpad.net/~hikiko/mir/mir.nested-mode-connection/+merge/178042/comments/401241 - should be a 5 minute job?
[08:38] <hikiko> I ve fixed i t already alan_g :)
[08:38] <hikiko> pushing!
[08:38] <hikiko> oh no
[08:39] <alan_g> alf__: ^ - want to re-review?
[08:39] <hikiko> I was referring to another comment
[08:39] <hikiko> sorry
[08:39] <hikiko> you mean to replace MirConnection* with unique_ptr?
[08:39] <hikiko> https://code.launchpad.net/~hikiko/mir/mir.nested-mode-connection/+merge/178042/comments/401765
[08:40] <hikiko> I am pushing this fix
[08:43] <alan_g> hikiko: it is better to resolve "Needs Fixing" comments than "Comment" comments.
[08:44] <hikiko> yes I pushed alex's changes except the MirConnection*
[08:44] <hikiko> do we really need this?
[08:45] <hikiko> (because we use it once)
[08:45] <hikiko> and never again
[08:46] <alan_g> hikiko: because we throw in the constructor the destructor never executes. So the connection is leaked.
[08:46] <hikiko> oh
[08:47] <hikiko> i see
[08:47] <alan_g> unique_ptr isn't IMO the cleanest solution - I'd write an RAII class
[08:47] <hikiko> sorry if I sound too naive but I don't know what a RAII class is
[08:48] <hikiko> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Acquisition_Is_Initialization
[08:48] <hikiko> is it this?^
[08:48] <alf__> hikiko: yes
[08:50] <hikiko> cool :) I'll read it (I've never used it before)
[09:09]  * duflu is not a fan of RAII. Most notably because it confuses object destruction for resource close. If you for example "delete my_file", that does not delete or destroy the file like destruction usually implies
[09:14]  * alan_g Likes RAII - but thinks it should be called "use destructors for paired operations"
[09:20] <tsdgeos> guys
[09:20] <tsdgeos> i've come across
[09:20] <tsdgeos> class ForwardingInternalSurface : public mg::InternalSurface
[09:20] <tsdgeos> with the comment
[09:20] <tsdgeos>  // TODO this ought to be provided by the library
[09:20] <alan_g> tsdgeos: ack I wrote that
[09:20] <tsdgeos> I agree, since i think i need something similar to make http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~phablet-team/platform-api/mir-packaging/ compile again
[09:21] <tsdgeos> so i copy that class in there or?
[09:24] <alan_g> tsdgeos: you could as a workaround. I'll be fixing that in a few days (sorry didn't know of your dependency)
[09:24] <tsdgeos> ok
[09:24] <tsdgeos> will do
[09:53] <RAOF> alf__: MP should be fixed; review at your leisure.
[09:53] <alf__> RAOF: great, thanks
[10:00] <duflu> RAOF: I proposed a new, different, fix for the lag bug, if you wish to continue hacking into the night :)
[10:01]  * duflu -> dinner
[10:17] <RAOF> didrocks: Hey, it's ok for me to upload the stack before that mir fix lands, isn't it? It'll be blocked in -proposed until everything works?
[10:18] <didrocks> RAOF: it will be blocked in -proposed until someone put mir in main
[10:19] <didrocks> RAOF: what can happen TBH during the week-end
[10:19] <didrocks> (low chance though)
[10:19] <didrocks> RAOF: can you bump the build-dep?
[10:19] <didrocks> that way, we'll be sure that we'll need a new Mir version
[10:19] <didrocks> (even if it's artificial)
[10:19] <didrocks> wdyt?
[10:19] <RAOF> I could do that, I guess?
[10:20] <RAOF> Actually - unity-system-compositor *does* have auto tests, right?
[10:20] <RAOF> The bug only occurs under u-s-c, and is highly likely to be caught by *any* u-s-c testing
[10:21] <didrocks> RAOF: those tests are integration tests
[10:21] <didrocks> RAOF: they can't run autopilot
[10:22] <RAOF> So those tests aren't run before promotion from -proposed?
[10:22] <didrocks> RAOF: exactly
[10:24] <RAOF> Ok; build-dep bump it is.
[10:26] <RAOF> Fire in the hole!
[10:51] <arsson> Is there still two cursors?
[10:52] <RAOF> Nope.
[10:53] <RAOF> So, now that everything's uploaded to proposed, time to disappear for the weekend.
[10:53] <RAOF> What could possibly go wrong!
[11:10] <tvoss_> RAOF, ping
[12:55] <robert_ancell> alf__, you are working on a patch for alt+ctrl+backspace in the examples?
[12:56] <alf__> robert_ancell: yes
[12:56] <robert_ancell> alf__, ok, I was working on that too - I'll stop then
[12:56] <alf__> robert_ancell: basically, your branch adapted to mir::examples::ServerConfiguration
[12:57] <robert_ancell> alf__, ok
[12:57] <robert_ancell> alf__, I just rebased so it uses mir::examples::ServerConfiguration, but I didn't remove the duplication yet
[12:58] <alf__> robert_ancell: well, then you are farther ahead than I am :)
[12:58] <robert_ancell> I was stuck on std::initializer_list - how to have one build in filter in the config but also support other filters that the examples require
[12:58] <robert_ancell> built in filter rather
[12:59] <alf__> robert_ancell: yes, we need to get rid of initializer_list and replace it with a mutable container (e.g. vector) or perhaps some other abstraction
[12:59] <robert_ancell> yes :)
[13:00] <robert_ancell> alf__, ok, should I stop and leave you to make the merge then?
[13:01] <alf__> robert_ancell: I am not sure now, since you are further ahead than I am. I just declared intention of doing it, haven't really started yet
[13:01] <robert_ancell> alf__, ok, I'll continue then - I'll be off on Monday after I fly back from IOM so feel free to finish it off if you have plans there
[13:02] <alf__> robert_ancell: ok, sounds good then
[13:17] <thomi> racarr: any progress with the stress test / thread race fix?
[14:23] <alan_g> hikiko: how are you doing?
[14:24] <hikiko> alan_g,
[14:24] <hikiko> I did it
[14:25] <hikiko> it wasn't that simple
[14:25] <hikiko> I had to overload * as well
[14:25] <hikiko> to keep using the same methods
[14:25] <hikiko> but it seems to work :D
[14:25] <hikiko> I am testing and I will push in a moment
[14:26] <alan_g> Cool, I have an automated test for it: lp:~alan-griffiths/mir/sketch-for-nested-mir-tests
[14:27] <hikiko> thanks a lot! :D I will merge it
[14:27] <alan_g> you merge that and run bin/acceptance-tests --gtest_filter=TestNestedMir*
[14:44] <hikiko> alan_g, I got some ok and passed
[14:44] <hikiko> can I push the merge?
[14:44] <alan_g> hikiko: please do
[18:43] <racarr> :(  just merged trunk in to client focus notifications again and lots of test failures
[18:49] <kdub_> trunk looks ok to me (rev920), aside from the already known problem tests
[18:53] <racarr> kdub_: Yeah its just some weird interaction
[18:53] <racarr> probably having to do ith some redone test fixture and stubs vs mocks and blabla bla still investigating
[18:53] <racarr> its kind of cryptical somehow
[18:53] <racarr> broken pipe, connection refused, etc.
[19:01] <racarr> The thing is ApplicationMediatorReport session_connect and session_create_surface fail
[19:01] <racarr> but, session_disconnect
[19:01] <racarr> which contains session_create_surface as a literal textual subset
[19:01] <racarr> passes
[19:01] <racarr> I think something funny is going on with test_protobuf_client
[19:07] <racarr> maybe the event sink is trying to send events after the client has already destroyed it's surface
[19:07] <racarr> i.e. done->Run(); client destroys surface quickly
[19:07] <racarr> err
[19:07] <racarr> client disconnects
[19:07] <racarr> then the event sink is unclogged
[19:07] <racarr> and the socket is invalid
[19:07] <racarr> and I guess
[19:07] <racarr> an exception isnt being handled
[19:07] <racarr> due to some unrelated change
[19:13] <racarr> nah keeping the client alive doesnt fixit so its somethingelse
[19:18] <racarr> it may be happening when trying to send the focus lost message on close_session
[19:18] <racarr> need to investigate the ownership of the MessageSender
[19:19] <racarr> i.e. perhaps EventSender can not take a strong reference
[19:25] <racarr> I see. It can only happen in the ~SessionMediator Session closed without disconnect code path
[19:25] <racarr> and even then only sometimes
[19:30] <racarr> so, it seems like the client process finishes succesfully
[19:31] <racarr> and dies without disconnect then the server gets sigterm by the testing process manager
[19:31] <racarr> and shuts down, ~SessionMediator is reached
[19:31] <racarr> which sees that disconnect was never called and calls SessionManager->close_session...
[19:32] <racarr> so, then SessionManager::close_session tries to clear the focus
[19:32] <racarr> the client which is being closed now, never closed it's surface either
[19:32] <racarr> so, the focus mechanism sees that said surface last had focus
[19:32] <racarr> and delivers an unfocused event
[19:33] <racarr> eventually ending in SocketMessenger throwing because of broken pipe
[19:33] <racarr> Almost surely, event_sender taking a weak reference to the message sender will fix it
[19:33] <racarr> but im concerned in that I do not understand why it didn't happen before
[19:33] <racarr> kdub_: Any ideas perhaps?
[19:36] <kdub_> hmm
[19:37] <kdub_> so a client is outliving the server?
[19:38] <racarr> kdub_: No, the client is shutting don, without calling disconnect or release_surface
[19:38] <racarr> so then the testing_process_manager kills the server
[19:38] <racarr> and in ~SessionMediator when close_session is called
[19:38] <racarr> eventually the surface is unfocused
[19:38] <racarr> causing things to try and send an event over the wire
[19:38] <racarr> and unhandled broken pipe exception
[19:42] <kdub_> i'd hope there's a better way handle that than a proxy
[19:43] <kdub_> havent thought too deply though how yet
[19:43] <racarr> kdub_: Mm. there are a bunch of ways to make the test pass but it feels like
[19:43] <racarr> something is wrong
[19:43] <racarr> kdub_: One thing is I think
[19:44] <racarr> EventSender can take std::weak_ptr<MessageSender> perhaps?
[19:46] <kdub_> i suppose
[19:46] <racarr> but it seems
[19:46] <kdub_> that was the proxying though
[19:46] <racarr> also not correct XD
[19:46] <racarr> yeah
[19:48] <racarr> kdub_: This is a total diversion but I saw a crazy idea yesterday from john carmack on handling mutable state in multithreaded C++ game logic
[19:49] <racarr> first, you use a seperate garbage collected heap for all your mutable data i.e. your non asset data.
[19:49] <racarr> and basically you write all your code, kind of in the style we are using for multithreading except with two crazy differences
[19:50] <racarr> 1. Rather than any of your actors or whatever actually updating state, they return partially applied functions to do such, and then the main frame loop
[19:50] <racarr> sorts out how to apply such
[19:50] <racarr> but then the also clever bit is
[19:51] <racarr> well how do you actually enforce this, if you are handing out pointers still
[19:51] <racarr> so the objects can look at eachother
[19:51] <racarr> so the idea is during the garbage collection step (which you do every frame), you copy the entire mutable heap
[19:51] <racarr> and all your objects that have pointers to other objects
[19:52] <racarr> you update with a pointer to the heap from the last frame
[19:52] <racarr> which you then mprotect
[19:52] <racarr> so basically each of your actors, can have "real" enforced purity
[19:52] <racarr> and you have a small bit of monadic code that applies all these unctions they create
[19:52] <racarr> :p not really an architecture for mir but I thought it was really fascinating
[20:54] <racarr> Back from lunch, Ill produce a reduced test case. so this doesn't muddle client focus notifications
[20:55] <racarr> i.e....events_sent_during_disconnect_do_not_crash_server
[21:30] <racarr> got a reduced test but the ownership doesnt work like I thought it did so just weak_ptr isnt enough
[21:53]  * kdub_ forgot to mention... if i go dark, its because the internet company cut me off early
[21:53] <kdub_> transferring my service over the weekend
[22:15] <racarr> the connected sessions abstraction is making this hard to solve
[22:27] <racarr> sigh I tried having the EventSender used connected_sessions to verify that
[22:27] <racarr> the session was still around
[22:27] <racarr> but this whole process of disconnect happens during the
[22:28] <racarr> connected_sessions.remove call
[22:28] <racarr> so of course that is a deadlock
[22:29] <racarr> part of the reason this code is so difficult is socket session killing itself
[22:29] <racarr> by calling connected_sessions.remove


[12:10] <dexcel> ** WARNING **: alsa_setup(): Failed to open pcm device (default): Dispositivo o recurso ocupado, cuando trato de acceder a xmms tampoco funciona mplayer se keda pegado, xine funciona pero sin audio
[12:13] <crimsun> dexcel, are you using the esound output plugin?
[12:13] <dexcel> I'm using alsa
[12:14] <crimsun> dexcel, which apps don't give sound?
[12:14] <dexcel> apps?
[12:14] <ogra> crimsun, note that ltsp has no sound for the thin clinets in this release...
[12:15] <ogra> in fact i'm thinking about disabling all sound apps in the default install and leave them only in the workstation version...
[12:15] <crimsun> dexcel, are you using ltsp then?
[12:15] <ogra> (just maes no sense in edubuntu)
[12:16] <dexcel> ltsp no
[12:16] <ogra> crimsun, sound would play on the server if you'd use it on the thin client...
[12:16] <dexcel> what is it?
[12:16] <ogra> dexcel, which edubuntu build do you use ?
[12:16] <dexcel> Hoary
[12:17] <ogra> dexcel, there is no edubuntu hoary
[12:17] <crimsun> ogra, it'll take me a bit to adjust to all the different environments; please forgive me if my questions are initially irrelevant to certain edubuntu builds
[12:17] <ogra> crimsun, they arent...
[12:17] <dexcel> xD
[12:17] <dexcel> I dont now
[12:18] <dexcel> I'm wrong
[12:18] <dexcel> xD
[12:18] <dexcel> sorry
[12:18] <ogra> crimsun, and i'd like to abuse your genius for dapper for getting soudd to the thin clients :)
[12:18] <crimsun> ogra, sure :)
[12:18] <ogra> crimsun, do you plan to attend UBZ ?
[12:18] <crimsun> ogra, unfortunately I can't take off work :/
[12:19] <ogra> gah.... thast bad...
[12:19] <ogra> i'd love to develop a rocking new network sound architecture... nas seems just not approriate, but thats what most old ltsp setup use ...
[12:20] <ogra> crimsun, do you have an idea how our ltsp works ?
[12:20] <crimsun> ogra, nope, trying to eek out time to look at it
[12:21] <ogra> its asy...
[12:21] <ogra> easy even...
[12:21] <ogra> the thin clients boot kernel and xserver from the server via tftp and nfs and drop you to an login screen...
[12:22] <ogra> if you log in there, the login manager establishes a ssh connection to the server and runs a gnome session there...
[12:22] <crimsun> ok
[12:23] <ogra> (same as running ssh -X $(server) Xsession from a bare xserver on your PC to another pc)
[12:23] <ogra> so everything runs on the server...
[12:23] <ogra> i guess you see the problem with sound on the clients :)
[12:24] <crimsun> ah yes.
[12:24] <ogra> since the only sound HW thats available or the desktop is the soundcard of the server :)
[12:24] <ogra> s/r/for
[12:24] <ogra> grr
[12:24] <ogra> s/or/for
[12:25] <ogra> s/soundcard/sound daemon/
[12:25] <siretart> I'm not convinced about that ssh -X solution
[12:25] <siretart> it breaks quite some things..
[12:25] <ogra> siretart, its what even ltsp mainline will use in future releases
[12:25] <ogra> they are just adopting it
[12:25] <ogra> skole too
[12:26] <siretart> I assume because of better performance, yes?
[12:26] <ogra> its a big improvement over the current ltsp
[12:26] <ogra> nope
[12:26] <ogra> in fact its a bit slower
[12:27] <ogra> siretart, but you know how evil xhost and unencrypted tcp X connections are
[12:28] <ogra> one of the biggest probs in school environments  (at least thats what i was told at the kole summit i attended) is security
[12:28] <siretart> I know
[12:28] <ogra> s/kole/skole
[12:28] <siretart> ah. okay
[12:28] <magnon> ogra: they told you that in Norway?
[12:28] <ogra> if you do exams and tests with 14 year old script kiddies, be surethey know how to sniff the traffic of the neighbor ;)
[12:28] <magnon> in that case, it's rubbish
[12:29] <magnon> it might be a problem, but far from the biggest one
[12:29] <siretart> so we need a network transparent sound architecture, which works across ssh sessions.. tough..
[12:29] <ogra> magnon, they didnt say *the* biggest ... one o the biggest
[12:29] <magnon> ogra: I still don't really agree
[12:29] <ogra> siretart, that'd be cool...
[12:29] <magnon> a problem, which is behind many
[12:30] <crimsun> hmm, gstreamer has network streaming, but I've not tested it
[12:30] <magnon> gstreamer is a viable solution, I hope
[12:30] <ogra> siretart, but tht would require a ssh server on the client... which again isnt really nice
[12:30] <ogra> crimsun, it should be tunneled and encrypted network streaming :)
[12:31] <magnon> it shouldn't be hard to hack up a somewhat encrypted gst pipeline either, if it's not already done
[12:31] <magnon> ogra: has a lower level solution been thought of?
[12:31] <magnon> in the terms of IPSec
[12:31] <magnon> etc.
[12:31] <ogra> magnon, thats what i'm searching for for dapper
[12:31] <magnon> that would solve many a problem
[12:31] <ogra> as low as possible but also as secure as possible
[12:32] <magnon> not that LTSP shouldn't seek sleeker solutions to many things
[12:32] <magnon> the handling of client devices is godawful
[12:32] <magnon> and by no means secure
[12:32] <ogra> yup, thats another task to solve in dapper
[12:32] <ogra> we kept the hard things for dapper ;)
[12:32] <magnon> usb device onto desktop and such
[12:32] <magnon> actually, I'd hope it to be as transparent as possible
[12:33] <ogra> local devices, local sound are the biggest ltsp goals we have thert
[12:33] <siretart> what happens if you plug in a usb stick in the thin client?
[12:33] <magnon> not much :P
[12:33] <ogra> nothing
[12:34] <magnon> you can set up stuff so you get a samba mount to it
[12:34] <siretart> ah, sure, because of that ssh 'solution'
[12:34] <ogra> but if you plug it in on the server all users see it :)
[12:34] <ogra> siretart, nope
[12:34] <ogra> siretart, because of the ltsp solution...
[12:34] <siretart> ja
[12:34] <ogra> its not different in the original ltsp
[12:35] <ogra> it has alsways been a problem...
[12:36] <ogra> thast why we didnt target it for this release... it requires a good thinking and new ideas
[12:36] <magnon> I'm wondering if HAL could play a role
[12:37] <ogra> siretart, there is no big difference in functionality between the ltsp solutions... be it the old or our ltsp...
[12:37] <siretart> magnon: you would need to make hal network transparent.. quite tough..
[12:37] <ogra> magnon, you thats my idea...
[12:37] <ogra> a tunneld dbus connection...
[12:37] <ogra> running the hal backend on the thin client, tunneling it to the server and using it there on the desktop
[12:37] <siretart> and how to access block devices over the net?
[12:38] <magnon> ogra: does HAL have any permission infrastructure?
[12:38] <magnon> siretart: would be about the same with HAL... if HAL first works, it should be easy to adapt to more stuff
[12:38] <ogra> siretart, thats also only doable through weird hack in both environments
[12:38] <ogra> magnon, nope, but dbus ;)
[12:38] <magnon> ogra: aha
[12:39] <ogra> but in any case it looks like we cant avoid running a ssh server on the client :/
[12:39] <magnon> hmm
[12:39] <magnon> it would be solved with another lower level solution
[12:40] <magnon> I'd say IPSec should be more optimised for sustained transfer rates too
[12:40] <ogra> kernel access to the client over the net ?
[12:40] <ogra> *shudder*
[12:40] <magnon> yeah, isn't that cute? :)
[12:40] <magnon> :P
[12:40] <siretart> magnon: did you really deploy ipsec in a comparable environment yet?
[12:40] <magnon> siretart: No
[12:40] <magnon> :)
[12:40] <magnon> I'm just thinking it should be possible
[12:41] <siretart> its a beast
[12:41] <magnon> in what way?
[12:41] <siretart> to configure it. been there, done that
[12:41] <magnon> and in what way is it more of a bestial solution than anything else of the ltsp nightmare? :P
[12:41] <ogra> i think sshd is the way to go... tunneling dbus and audio streams through it... mounting local devices via sftp...
[12:42] <magnon> ogra: session suspend should also be thought of - there's been a tiny bit of work in that department
[12:42] <siretart> ogra: how to unmount with sftp connections?
[12:42] <magnon> that's tricky
[12:42] <magnon> you'd need to unmount usb sticks and such
[12:42] <shaga> hows the xss doing ogra?
[12:42] <ogra> thats a hal job
[12:42] <magnon> FAT for instance behaves badly
[12:43] <ogra> shaga, with a little luck i'm done after the running build
[12:43] <shaga> oh, thats good news :)
[12:43] <ogra> low level mounting should be done by hal like we do it currently in ubuntu
[12:44] <magnon> oh just great
[12:44] <ogra> mounting on FS level can be done via sftp
[12:44] <magnon> running out of battery and forgot my charger :P
[12:44] <ogra> now you need to get both to play together (maybe via hal too)
[12:44] <magnon> ah well
[12:44] <magnon> goodnight
[12:44] <ogra> night magnon
[12:45] <ogra> siretart, unmounting should be easy if you send the commands through a tunneled dbus connection to the clients hal
[12:46] <ogra> indeed this binds us very much on hal and dbus... as long as KDE doesnt use it, KDE desktops will be a no go ...
[12:47] <siretart> will think about it
[12:47] <siretart> need some sleep now. gn8
[12:48] <ogra> night
[02:06] <shaga> http://dome.seamk.fi/~o0200231/farmsluts_300.mov the best short video I've ever seen :p
[02:07] <shaga> comedy
[08:47] <JaneW> morning
[08:48] <JaneW> highvoltage: thanks for the awesom music - I managed to run around the common twice last night :)
[08:51] <highvoltage> JaneW: isn't that a dangerous area?
[08:52] <highvoltage> bbl
[08:54] <JaneW> highvoltage: nope, I think it used to be when the grass was over 6 feet high, but it's kept short now, and there are plenty of ppl around. I wouldn't recommend venturing into the middle of the common alone at night, but the perimieter seems perfectly safe.
[09:20] <guim> Hi all, just a question :
[09:20] <guim> I guess you all have read about this : laptop.media.mit.edu
[09:20] <guim> anyone knows which distirb is going to be installed on it?
[09:21] <guim> edubuntu ? ;-)
[09:22] <guim> "MIT will work with a small number of companies of complementary skills to develop a fully working and manufactured laptop (50,000 to 100,000 units) in fewer than 12 months, with an eye on building about 100 million to 200 million units by the following year"
[09:22] <guim> that will be "quiet a nice visibility" for the distrib...
[09:23] <JaneW> hi guim
[09:23] <guim> hi JaneW
[09:23] <JaneW> you can contact Mako for more info\
[09:24] <JaneW> he has just left the formal employ of Canonical to work at MIT with the guy running this project
[09:24] <guim> nice!
[09:24] <JaneW> he is still very involved with Ubuntu and is part of the foundation and heads up the Community Council
[09:24] <JaneW><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[09:25] <guim> i see who is mako, actually i met him in france and he allowed me to contact/find you some months ago
[09:26] <guim> so if mako is involved in this, do you think that those 100$ laptop are going to be installed with ubuntu ?
[09:27] <guim> "we are living in a small world" ;-)
[09:30] <jsg_> mako is involved with it
[09:31] <jsgotangco> guim, most probably debian :)
[09:31] <jsgotangco> not necessarily ubuntu
[09:32] <guim> ok
[09:34] <jsgotangco> guim, the key here is mass production
[09:34] <guim> I guess so
[09:35] <guim> 1 Gb storage is not a lot at all, it won't be even possible to install a lot of software
[09:35] <jsgotangco> guim, sure if it had basic stuff
[09:36] <jsgotangco> students don't need graphics intensive stuff in te first place
[09:36] <guim> yes, but how big is openoffice 2 once installed?
[09:37] <guim> the linux itself with gnome/kde
[09:37] <guim> then some "educative" programs like gcompris or others, that is also a lot of images, maybe sounds
[09:38] <guim> 1 gb will be really very fastly complete!
[10:29] <Burgundavia> guim, jsgotangco red hat is partnering for the $100 laptop
[10:29] <guim> mmm, ok
[10:30] <jsgotangco> nice
[10:32] <Burgundavia> thus it is likely to be a gnome desktop
[10:32] <JaneW> might be a good candidate for Ubuntu Lite
[10:33] <Burgundavia> the machine is actualy fairly beefy
[10:33] <Burgundavia> 500mhz will run gnome just fine
[10:39] <JaneW> hehe, I found it http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=939
[10:39] <JaneW> ran at 5Mhz
[10:40] <JaneW> jsgotangco: hehe
[10:41] <jsgotangco> seriously...
[10:42] <JaneW> we did have an abacus, we just had little cubes that could connect to each other to make a tower, for working out sums.
[10:42] <JaneW> I started teaching my 5 y/o 'sums' the other day
[10:42] <JaneW> he corrected me and told me it's called 'mathematics'!
[10:42] <JaneW> I guess I don't need to teach him anything
[10:43] <jsgotangco> haha
[10:44] <jsgotangco> may daughter doesn't like her toy laptop, she prefers using a real computer sheeshhh
[10:53] <JaneW> I thought they were probably pretty limited and not worth it
[10:54] <jsgotangco> yes
[10:54] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, bleah
[10:54] <jsgotangco> you're missing the whole point of existence
[10:54] <Burgundavia> I prefer not to think that point of existance is the creation of more little monsters
[10:54] <jsgotangco> the chinese say to gain immortality you need to do 3 things
[10:55] <jsgotangco> 1.) plant a tree
[10:55] <jsgotangco> 2.) write a book
[10:55] <Burgundavia> check
[10:55] <Burgundavia> nope
[10:55] <jsgotangco> 3.) have children
[10:55] <Burgundavia> 4.) have lots of money to get frozen when you die of cancer
[10:56] <jsgotangco> 4. is the western view
[10:56] <jsgotangco> and doesnt work at the moment
[10:56] <Burgundavia> I am sorry I was born in Western country
[10:58] <jsgotangco> do people actually pay to get frozen
[10:58] <jsgotangco> hehe
[10:59] <JaneW> cryogenics
[10:59] <JaneW> it's cheaper to freeze just your head
[10:59] <JaneW> it can be attached to a different body when you are thawed
[11:03] <jsgotangco> JaneW, yuck
[11:04] <JaneW> ;)
[11:04] <jsgotangco> attach my head to fabio's body
[11:04] <jsgotangco> not fabbione
[11:14] <JaneW> LOL
[11:14] <JaneW> fabio is creepy!
 might be interesting to the people on this channel. :)
[11:27] <jsgotangco> JaneW, any idea how this works: http://www.ubuntu.com/partners/program
[11:27] <JaneW> jsgotangco: no not really - contact silbs
[11:29] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:00] <magnon> w 7
[12:00] <magnon> uhm.
[01:10] <ogra> pere, ping
[01:10] <magnon> hey ogra
[01:10] <ogra> hi :)
[01:11] <magnon> yay for several organisations to hide beneath :P
[01:11] <JaneW> mail me or call on mobile if you need me
[01:11] <magnon> have fun
[01:12] <JaneW> thanks
[01:12] <JaneW> bye
[01:12] <pere> ogra: pong
[01:12] <magnon> bye
[01:12] <ogra> JaneW, enjoy nature ;)
[01:12] <JaneW> ogra: thanks - I love it
[01:12] <ogra> pere, mdz forwarded me your mail with the /etc/eport changes etc...
[01:12] <ogra> export even
[01:13] <ajmitch_> hi all :)
[01:13] <ogra> pere, you know that we have a udeb in ubuntu to build the chroot from cd before first reboot on install ?`
[01:13] <pere> ogra: no, I didn't know that.
[01:13] <pere> ogra: why solve it at that point?
[01:13] <ogra> it avoids the need of an online connection
[01:14] <ogra> hey ajmitch_ :)
[01:15] <ogra> pere, else deboostrap needs an online connection or you have to do odd things like generation a Packages.gz for /var/cache/apt/archives
[01:15] <ogra> *generating
[01:15] <pere> ogra: are you sure?  I would expect my approach would work just fine if one added ltsp-server to the list of packages to install from within d-i.
[01:16] <ogra> pere, deboostrap needs a Packages.gz or any kind of real archive for ltsp-build-client...
[01:16] <pere> yes, and this is on the CD.
[01:17] <pere> debootstrap can run just fine using a CD.
[01:25] <ogra_> hmm, did i mention I LOVE MY PROVIDER !
[01:25] <ogra_> grrr
[01:25] <ogra_> pere... guess you didnt get my last sentences
[01:25] <ogra_> yes, it does that with the udeb
[01:25] <ogra_> it didnt work with the postinst approach i tried...
[01:25] <ogra_> when do you install ltsp-server ? from base-config or before reboot ?
[01:25] <ogra_> mdz wanted to use the chached contents from /var/cache/apt/archives originally...
[01:25] <ogra_> (speeds up a lot, but will require lots of changes to the script)
[01:32] <pere> I planned to do it from base-config, but did not test this yet.
[01:32] <pere> I planned to do it similarly to the way we install lessdisks, from base-config using the CD.
[01:33] <pere> when installing from CD, isn't the content in the apt cache just symlinks to the CD?
[01:33] <ogra_> but that requires to ask the user to insert the CD again...
[01:33] <ogra_> nope
[01:33] <ogra_> the last thing d-i does is copying all packages to /var/cache/apt/archives
[01:33] <ogra_> (at least in ubuntu)
[01:34] <pere> right.  I'm not sure if that happens in debian.
[01:34] <ogra_> aha
[01:34] <pere> ok, so I start to understand the constraints you are working under. :)
[01:35] <ogra_> then you should install it before reboot :)
[01:35] <ogra_> yes, we have it a bit easier *g*
[01:35] <pere> what is the name of the udeb source?  URL?
[01:35] <ogra_> ltsp-client-builder
[01:35] <ogra_> wait a sec
[01:36] <ogra_> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/ltsp-client-builder/
[01:36] <ogra_> it still needs some love for the progress reporting, but registrs in he installer menu as separate option
[01:38] <pere> you might find the script used to install lessdisks interesting.  <URL:http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debian-edu/trunk/src/debian-edu-config/bin/debian-edu-lessdisks?op=file&rev=0&sc=0>
[01:39] <ogra_> will have a look
[01:39] <ogra_> i'm finally also subscribed to ltsp-devel
[01:39] <pere> ogra_: great.  I read it using gmane.org personally.
[01:40] <ogra_> my next big goal is to generate the dhcp.conf dynamically... i need to solve that before release
[01:40] <pere> adding mac-addresses, you mean?
[01:41] <ogra_> nope
[01:41] <ogra_> generating the file in /etc/ltsp dynamically so dhcp-server can start immediately after install
[01:42] <ogra_> with a debconf question (supressed in ubuntu) to which interface to bind to
[01:43] <pere> right.
[01:43] <ogra_> grabbing the ip range from ethX, asking for GW and range for the thin clients
[01:43] <ogra_> so it will be preseedable...
[01:44] <ogra_> night ajmitch_
[03:11] <Gand> hi all
[03:16] <Gand> I need a DB, have I to install MySQL or PostgreSQL?
[03:17] <magnon> depends on your needs ;)
[03:17] <magnon> for simplicity's sake, MySQL
[03:20] <Gand> thank. But I see that Postgresql is yet installed on edubuntu
[03:21] <Gand> I know how to manage Mysql, but I wonder if I can use Postgresql as it is installed yet
[03:22] <ogra> sure you can :)
[03:22] <Gand> it was to have not 2 DB on the machine
[03:22] <Gand> how  I can?
[03:22] <ogra> then remove it, its easy
[03:23] <Gand> for example, there is a root password to set as in MySQL?
[03:23] <ogra> nope
[03:23] <ogra> postgres runs as the user postgres
[03:23] <Gand> how I start Postgresql?
[03:24] <ogra> postgres is much more scalable than mysql and is the one we support by default in ubuntu
[03:24] <ogra> it starts automatically on boot...
[03:24] <ogra> you can stop it with "sudo /etc/init.d/postgresql-8.0 start"
[03:25] <ogra> (or stop it with stop...restart with restart)
[03:25] <ogra> it has a sql console similar to oracle...
[03:25] <Gand> some CMS ask user and pw of database to connect to
[03:25] <ogra> (use the psql command)
[03:26] <Gand> there are some Administrator tools fot postgre as for mysql?
[03:26] <ogra> its the one you have given it... by default there is no DB... we're just fixing moodle to create the initial DB on install
[03:27] <ogra> sure
[03:28] <Gand> in "add applications" I find only a MySQL adminstrator, not a postgres one
[03:28] <Gand> you know, I'm a GUI (graphical user interface) monkey :)
[03:28] <ogra> you can try phppgadmin
[03:29] <ogra> its similar to phpmyadmin
[03:29] <Gand> anyway I succed starting apache and PHP :)
[03:29] <Gand> now only DB left
[03:30] <ogra> i was just told pgadmin3 is the best gui tool for postgres so far
[03:30] <ogra> but you really dont need to stick with postgres if you dont like it
[03:31] <Gand> If I wish to install moodle, what I've to do for DB user and pw? postgre/my pw?
[03:31] <ogra> Gand, btw, our postgres maintainer is pitti in #ubuntu-devel he can give more detailed answers :)
[03:32] <ogra> Gand, nothing with the (soon to be fixed) moodle package we will ship
[03:32] <ogra> it will create everything automatically for you...
[03:32] <Gand> thank, I wait :)
[03:32] <ogra> so you can start through right away :)
[03:32] <Gand> for a dummy  like me :) nice
[03:33] <ogra> thats the atrget of edubuntu... make it as easy as we can for users ;)
[03:33] <ogra> *target
[03:33] <Gand> This is why I'm using edubuntu :)
[03:34] <Gand> thank ogra I've to go to now, I'm on late to get my son from school
[03:34] <Gand> see you thank
[04:01] <Yagisan> Hi ogra - beaten xss into submission yet ?
[04:02] <ogra> yup...
[04:02] <Yagisan> excellent
[04:02] <Yagisan> you'll actually get some sleep now ?
[04:02] <shaga> I love the new login after lock up :p
[04:03] <ogra> nope, not much sleep for me...
[04:03] <ogra> i'll have to finish edubuntu ...
[04:03] <ogra> i lost 10 workdays through the screensaver... unplanned
[04:04] <Yagisan> ouch
[04:04] <Yagisan> I started my upgrade to breezy today
[04:04] <Yagisan> but as I was tired i burned i386 instead of amd64
[04:04] <ogra> fun
[04:05] <Yagisan> I noticed that right after I blew away the system
[04:19] <magnon> ok
[04:19] <magnon> time to go see dream theater :)
[04:26] <john_b> Hello, I'm trying to get stand-alone box to route through Edubuntu box. Not having any success. I can ping the interface but cannot ping past it. I have enabled ip_forward. Any suggestions?
[04:27] <ogra> john_b, you use ltsp ?
[04:27] <john_b> yes
[04:27] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientHowtoNAT
[04:27] <ogra> voila :)
[04:27] <john_b> thank you :-)
[04:28] <ogra> i'll merge that to the edubuntu wiki for release i think :)
[04:35] <pere> ogra: I had a look at the udeb.  minor nitpick:
[04:35] <ogra> go ahead :)
[04:35] <pere> ogra: I suggest renaming 'LTSP chroot environment' to 'LTSP client environment'.
[04:35] <ogra> yup, noted, will do....
[04:36] <ogra> the text was Kamions suggestion
[04:36] <ogra> thats all already ?
[04:37] <pere> yes.  and I suspect some medium(or same as the main menu)-priority note should give feedback if the CD is missing so no ltsp installation will take place.
[04:37] <pere> I have just read the source so far. :)
[04:38] <john_b> ogra: I have no issue with the thin clients. I can't seem to figure out how to enable server as a gateway for regular boxes.
[04:38] <pere> ogra: actually, I believe the check for the CD should be moved into a test to decide if the menu entry should appear at all.
[04:38] <Yagisan> does everything in the 'LTSP client environment' get executed on the client ?
[04:38] <john_b> thanks though
[04:38] <ogra> hmm, i havent thought about a case where the CD isnt available, since we use the udeb in a place where its sure the CD is mounted...
[04:38] <Yagisan> I'm reading (/usr/sbin/ltsp-build-client)
[04:39] <pere> Yagisan: ltspb-build-client is executed on the server, and build a installation to be exectued on the clients.
[04:40] <Yagisan> so - everything in the chroot it makes - gets run in the client right ?
[04:40] <pere> ogra: are you using baz for this package?  I want to upload it into debian.  any view on how we could cooperate about it?
[04:40] <ogra> john_b, if you use the regular boxes in the same network as the thin clients, that should be trivial...
[04:40] <Yagisan> (I tired so I'm a bit slow today)
[04:40] <ogra> pere, i still suck with baz...
[04:41] <pere> ogra: is there a version control repository for this package?
[04:41] <ogra> (mdz is a bit concerned about that..)
[04:41] <ogra> nope
[04:41] <ogra> i'll have to set it up for ltsp anyway...
[04:41] <ogra> so stay tuned and feel free to take the source package until then
[04:42] <ogra> i wanted to merge the udeb into the main ltsp source later
[04:42] <pere> why later?  I'm all for merging it into the debian package now. :)
[04:43] <Yagisan> I think I might be able to add support for i386/amd64 specific chroots to /usr/sbin/ltsp-build-client
[04:43] <Yagisan> it doesn't seem to hard (famous last words ...)
[04:43] <pere> getting debootstrap to cross-build will be hard.
[04:44] <Yagisan> would probably need qemu for other arches
[04:44] <ogra> pere, because i dont touch the package, thats mdz's domain.... i need to hae a proper baz archive he can merge first
[04:44] <ogra> i'll set it up this weekend and add the script for dhcp.conf generation
[04:45] <pere> ogra: ok, so if I add it to my ubuntufixes branch, he would merge it?
[04:45] <ogra> i think so
[04:45] <john_b> On server eth0 is <IP_ADDRESS> the default gateway is <IP_ADDRESS> - eth1 = <IP_ADDRESS>
[04:45] <ogra> he's away over the wekend though
[04:46] <john_b> from standalone eth0 = <IP_ADDRESS> I can ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[04:46] <john_b> but not <IP_ADDRESS>
[04:46] <pere> 100$ laptop, <URL: http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/09/28/HNmitlaptop_1.html>
[04:46] <ogra> yup, saw it
[04:46] <Yagisan> pere: yeah - but we can't buy it
[04:46] <ogra> they look for edu distros i heard
[04:46] <ogra> Yagisan, not planned afaik
[04:47] <ogra> john_b, hmm, sounds like a routing problem...
[04:48] <john_b> root@edubuntu:/var/log# route
[04:48] <john_b> Kernel IP routing table
[04:48] <john_b> Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
[04:48] <john_b> localnet        *               <IP_ADDRESS>   U     0      0        0 eth0
[04:48] <john_b> <IP_ADDRESS>     *               <IP_ADDRESS>   U     0      0        0 eth1
[04:48] <john_b> default         <IP_ADDRESS>     <IP_ADDRESS>         UG    0      0        0 eth0
[04:48] <ogra> hmm
[04:48] <Yagisan> thats about $140AU for me
[04:49] <pere> <IP_ADDRESS> is not on the  <IP_ADDRESS>  subnet when netmask is <IP_ADDRESS>.  try <IP_ADDRESS>.
[04:49] <john_b> I should be able to trouble shoot this but In K12LTSP I never had to learn, it just worked
[04:50] <Yagisan> john_b: kernel ip forwarding enabled ? as pere mentioned you have two separate class c networks
[04:50] <ogra> Yagisan, its thought for third world countries... and will be given away to organizations only i heard... i doubt anyone considers .au a third world country, but who knows :)
[04:50] <Yagisan> ogra: With John Howard in charge - we will be a third world country soon
[04:50] <ogra> john_b, we'll sort that out for the next release to work automatically
[04:51] <ogra> Yagisan, ah, come on, at least you *have* a government.... germany doesnt even know where it goes ;)
[04:51] <pere> ogra: well, the network policy in .au is taken from some third world country.
[04:51] <john_b> well as long as I've been running k12 labs I really should have a handle on this so this is not a bad thing
[04:51] <Yagisan> he's doing a great job at running down workers rights, education etc
[04:51] <ogra> pere, heh, true...
[04:52] <Yagisan> it becoming more like the USA :( (I like pepole from the USA - I just don't want to be like them)
[04:53] <john_b> part of my problem is I am accustom to RH commands
[04:53] <john_b> ip forwarding is enabled
[04:54] <john_b> root@edubuntu:/var/log# cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
[04:54] <john_b> 1
[04:54] <john_b> root@edubuntu:/var/log#
[04:54] <ogra> pere, do you see that in debian ? http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15244
[04:54] <Yagisan> john_b: may I ask why you are using two class C adresses ?
[04:55] <pere> ogra: I have not heard any reports, but I have not tested such quick re-login myself.
[04:55] <john_b> Yes I have a gateway device that supplies internet addresses to my test Umbuntu box and my wife and sons computers
[04:55] <Yagisan> if it's a test lab - why don't you set up a class A or B (10.x.x.x or 172.16.x.x)
[04:56] <ogra> pere, its not *this* quick...
[04:56] <pere> Yagisan: there is no class A, B and C networks anymore.  it went away during the nineties.
[04:56] <john_b> well I can but the thing is I was trying to duplicat my old k12 set up
[04:56] <ogra> pere, and i see it also with a normal ssh -X session...
[04:57] <pere> Yagisan: /8, /16 and /24 is their new name, along with the 29 other network sizes. :)
[04:57] <Yagisan> pere: I know - but it is easier to describe in those terms
[04:57] <pere> Yagisan: perhaps.  in this case I suggest to use a /23 if he have all the machines on the same network.
[04:57] <Yagisan> pere: just like I use the rainbow books instead of "Common Critera" for work
[04:59] <john_b> I run 4 LTSP server at work and am getting my feet wet on umbuntu so I'm up to speed come spring when I'm planning on switching from Fedora
[05:02] <john_b> I'll change the ltsp network over to a Class A  aka /8
[05:02] <Yagisan> ok
[05:03] <pere> ogra: did you see the changes we did to the debian ltsp version?  I've sent the patches to mdz, but he have not merged them yet.  adding support for several of the ltsp options (mouse settings, etc).
[05:04] <ogra> john_b, in case youre interested in a more pretty login dialog for the clients (themeable, but didnt make it in this release): http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/
[05:04] <pere> ogra: also splitting ldm out into a separate package, to allow it to be used with lessdisks as well as a normal debian installation.
[05:04] <ogra> pere, nope
[05:04] <john_b> well now that you mention it...
[05:04] <ogra> pere, yes, that was my plan too...
[05:04] <ogra> pere, see the url above for ldm-ng :)
[05:04] <Yagisan> pere: does that include local apps ?
[05:07] <pere> ogra: I recommend hanging out on #ltsp to learn more about the stuff we do with ltsp.
[05:07] <ogra> i'll do :)
[05:07] <john_b> The login as it is, is not very good. It requires a mouse over and hitting enter rather than clicking the button fails
[05:07] <pere> the ldm split is done, and found to work fine.  next I was considering splitting out the printer server/forwarder system.
[05:08] <ogra> yup, someting i'll have to fix
[05:08] <ogra> pere, its not done in ubunt and i dont know mdz's pans
[05:08] <ogra> plans
[05:09] <pere> he said he wanted to split out ldm.  that is why I went ahead and did it.
[05:09] <ogra> ah
[05:09] <pere> but he wanted to wait until the freeze was over.
[05:10] <ogra> feel free to grab my tgz then, its a gdm rewrite in python :)
[05:10] <ogra> only 250 lines of code
[05:11] <ogra> (sorry, the tgz contains the themes too, that makes it a bit big)
[05:11] <pere> fixed the focus problem?
[05:11] <ogra> no focus needed
[05:11] <john_b> ogra, mdz helped me work through the "nfs" bug. I then came to realize he is one of the developers I gather you are too?
[05:11] <ogra> yup
[05:11] <ogra> he's my boss
[05:11] <shaga> can you believe how many times 'make' is being said in this channel? it's my nickname from markus.. :D
[05:12] <shaga> hilights
[05:12] <ogra> john_b, the nfs bug ?
[05:12] <john_b> well I've been waiting for over three years for a debian based k12ltsp thanks for all the work
[05:12] <john_b> yes
[05:13] <john_b> I'll get the bugzilla #
[05:13] <ogra> 12942 ?
[05:13] <john_b> yep
[05:13] <ogra> it works for you ?
[05:13] <john_b> yes
[05:14] <ogra> how ?
[05:14] <ogra> i tried a million things now
[05:14] <ogra> its my worst bug currently
[05:14] <john_b> I edited lts.conf instead of the suggested file
[05:14] <ogra> grmpf... why didnt mdz tell me...
[05:14] <ogra> ah
[05:15] <john_b> jammcq helped too
[05:15] <ogra> hmm, so thats only a workaround then...
[05:15] <ogra> the right fix needs to go into initramfs ... which currently doesnt accept nfs root options
[05:17] <ogra> john_b, could you mail me the lts.conf you use<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:17] <john_b> It was a work around. But since then there was an update and I then had to comment out the "fix"
[05:17] <john_b> I still have a number of errors when booting up a client
[05:18] <john_b> but I'm working one now
[05:18] <ogra> but no timeouts ?
[05:18] <john_b> not since the update
[05:18] <ogra> during next week we'll have usplash for the thin clients :)
[05:19] <john_b> # the following added to deal with nfs timeout bug
[05:19] <john_b> #prompt 0
[05:19] <john_b> #label linux
[05:19] <john_b> #  kernel vmlinuz-2.6.12-9-386
[05:19] <john_b> #  append init=/linuxrc rw root=/dev/ram0 initrd=initrd.img-2.6.12-9-386   MOPTS=nolock,ro,wsize=2048,rsize=2 048
[05:19] <ogra> then the erros get hidden from the user at least *g*
[05:19] <jsgotangco> ogra: were you able to receive my message re: edubuntu doc svn?
[05:19] <john_b> that is what worked for me. But not needed since update
[05:19] <ogra> jsgotangco, only that they are ready...
[05:20] <ogra> hmm, i had to hack on other stuff, i'll do my first ltsp install after 10 days this weekend again... lets see if its gone for me too
[05:21] <pere> ogra: are you aware how to test ltsp in qemu?
[05:21] <ogra> nope
[05:21] <ogra> i have enough HW around :)
[05:21] <pere> right.  recepe at the end of <URL: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/MueKow >
[05:21] <jsgotangco> nice
[05:21] <Yagisan> ogra: stop bragging
[05:22] <ogra> pere, thanks, bookmarked
[05:25] <Yagisan> is that pronounced moo cow ?
[05:25] <pere> don't know. I would probably pronounce it that way. :)
[05:26] <Yagisan> pere: you are from Debian ?
[05:26] <pere> I'm from Ballangen, Norway. :)
[05:26] <pere> I'm a skolelinux/debian-edu and debian developer, among other things.
[05:27] <jsgotangco> JaneW: i hope About Ubuntu has been cleared up
[05:28] <Yagisan> cool - I'm from Sydney, Australia. (why do I always seem to log on when no one is up in my timezone ?)
[05:29] <jsgotangco> hey
[05:29] <jsgotangco> i looovvee sydney
[05:31] <Yagisan> I only been around New South Wales and Qeensland
[05:31] <Yagisan> haven't made it to the other states yet
[05:32] <jsgotangco> yeah AU is a big place
[05:32] <ogra> jsgotangco, she's gone for the weekend very early today
[05:32] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:32] <jsgotangco> lucky girl
[05:32] <Yagisan> jsgotangco: yep - about the same size as continental USA
[05:33] <ogra> jsgotangco, but since the about-ubuntu stuff just breaks loose hell, i'm not sure if i can manage that ? i have not a minute planned to redo the whole edubuntu-artwork package
[05:33] <Yagisan> I've also been to Tokyo, Japan a few times :-D
[05:33] <ogra> jsgotangco, (not only not planned... i just havent the time)
[05:33] <jsgotangco> ogra: i'm not getting you
[05:33] <ogra> and nobody knew that you wipe it out of ubuntu-artwork
[05:33] <pere> ogra: what is the about-ubuntu stuff?
[05:34] <ogra> jsgotangco, edubutu-artwork contains about-edubuntu
[05:34] <ogra> pere, the default firefox homepage
[05:34] <ogra> jsgotangco, as ubuntu-artwork did... until yesterday
[05:35] <jsgotangco> ogra: dude i'm not doing anything about it, its jbailey who is packaging really..
[05:35] <ogra> now everything got changed but nobody announced the change
[05:36] <ogra> jbailey decided to split out X localized versions and to ship them in another place  ?
[05:36] <ogra> i doubt that
[05:36] <jsgotangco> ogra: i have no idea of what he is doing really, he just pulls the stuff from svn...i cleaned up the svn to make it package friendly...
[05:36] <jsgotangco> im not the one packaging nor any from the documentation team
[05:37] <ogra> yes but who decided to split it into X locales ?
[05:37] <ogra> and separate docs ?
[05:37] <jsgotangco> it was done in hoary...
[05:37] <ogra> nope
[05:37] <jsgotangco> im not getting you really
[05:38] <ogra> apparently i just could replace the index.html page with edubuntu-artork...
[05:38] <ogra> i cant anymore
[05:38] <jsgotangco> because ubuntu-artwork overrrides it?
[05:39] <ogra> jsgotangco, i'm pretty annoyed that i have to redo the edubuntu-artwork package completely and i didnt have time planned for that... there were heavy changes to this doc that split it up into several other documents ...
[05:39] <ogra> and apparently nobody notified this change...
[05:40] <pere> ogra: regarding the ldm-ng, how do you set the gui language?  using locale or some other value?  where is it set?
[05:40] <ogra> pere, not yet
[05:41] <ogra> but the right way would be using the locale from the server
[05:42] <pere> ogra: right.  sounds good.  the gdm maintainer in debian has refused to do this, which is why I am aware that there is an issue.
[05:44] <ogra> jsgotangco, i'm not ranting at *you* ...
[05:46] <Yagisan> anyone tried to get wine working with ltsp/edubuntu ?
[05:47] <jsgotangco> ogra: i have no clue really im sorry about that
[05:47] <pere> ogra: did you answer my question about the empty tarball for ltsp-client-builder?
[05:47] <ogra> jsgotangco, i'm ranting about missing communication and sudden changes, its not specific to this particular issue...
[05:48] <ogra> pere, err, nope
[05:48] <ogra> i didnt see the question, sorry
[05:48] <pere> ogra: there are no files in the tarball.
[05:48] <pere> why is the package not a native package (aka drop the -5, and use .5 instead).
[05:49] <ogra> pere, nope, it should be made a native package... :) i didt it 12h before preview release some time around 6am after two days of work without sleep :)
[05:49] <jsgotangco> ogra: ok wrong perception i'll just shut up next time
[05:50] <ogra> jsgotangco, but the doc team is one part of this issue (as well as other areas) i'd love to get a better inter team communication going all over the place...
[06:21] <pere> ogra: I'm integrating the udeb into the baz repository now, but am unsure if this is what mdz wants.
[06:22] <ogra> pere, actually he asked for it
[06:22] <pere> ok.  I'll commit, and ask him to merge.
[06:22] <ogra> fine....
[06:23] <pere> only need to modify control, rules and add the two files postinst and template.
[06:23] <ogra> yup
[06:23] <pere> the po/ directory seem like a dummy
[06:23] <ogra> it is
[06:24] <pere> the template lack _, nothing is translatable.
[06:24] <ogra> that'll be added post release
[06:24] <Yagisan> bye everyone - off to install the correct ubuntu arch now
[06:25] <ogra> heh, good luck Yagisan
[06:25] <pere> hm, oh it does.  I'm not sure what happened, but must have looked at the wrong template.
[06:26] <ogra> but there are no translations yet anyway
[06:40] <pere> ogra: commited, and available from my baz mirror
[06:40] <ogra> great :)
[06:41] <pere> ogra: I guess you need to start using version control systems now. :)
[06:41] <ogra> nope, i needed to start long ago with it ;)
[06:42] <ogra> in fact i did, but did it wrong...
[06:42] <pere> I know that feeling.  It took a while before I stopped falling in the pits of bazaar.
[06:44] <ogra> i'm fine with the client side, just setting up a usable signed archive seems to be my prob
[06:45] <pere> right.  have not looked at the signed stuff.
[06:45] <ogra> i'm commiting my seed changes for edubuntu to our main server every day ...
[06:46] <pere> ogra: are you aware of the isinstallable script in d-i?
[06:46] <ogra> but i didnt set this up and it gets merged automatically
[06:46] <ogra> nope, whyts that ?
[06:47] <pere> it is run by main-menu to check if a meny entry should be displayed or not.
[06:47] <ogra> ah...
[06:47] <pere> I believe it is a better choice than your iftest in postinst.
[06:47] <ogra> we dont use main-menu normally
[06:47] <pere> ?
[06:48] <pere> main-menu is an integral part of d-i.  I believe you use main-menu normally.
[06:48] <ogra> the ubuntu installer uses the menu only in expert mode... which no normal user ever sees
[06:48] <pere> ah, we talk about two different things.  you do not _see_ the menu, but you use it.
[06:48] <pere> main-menu is the controlling code in debian-installer.
[06:48] <ogra> ah, yes
[06:49] <pere> it loops over the other udebs, if they are "displayed" on the meny.
[06:49] <pere> and if isinstasllable return false, the entry is not on the menu, and not executed.
[06:50] <ogra> i have to ask Kamion about that one, i didnt see isinstallable anywhere in our udebs i inspected
[06:50] <pere> it isn't used that much. the bootload-installers and partman uses it.  and autopartkit, but I suspect you do not use that one.
[06:51] <pere> it can be confusing if meny entries disappear when something change in the environment.
[06:51] <pere> there is also the menutest script, but I am not sure what it does.  perhaps make it impossible for main-menu to select the entry by default.
[06:52] <ogra> ah, yes we use partman-auto, i think its  ubuntu specific thing
[06:56] <pere> partman-auto is in debian too
[06:57] <ogra> ah, i thought it was a ubuntu development from Kamion
[06:59] <pere> no idea where it came from, but it is in debian. :)
[06:59] <ogra> its our default partitioner :)
[07:11] <ogra> have fun
[07:32] <jsgotangco> good night all
[09:27] <john_b> hello, I have edubuntu installed with ltsp and I would like to change the subnet on the ltsp side.
[09:27] <john_b> I changed  /etc/hosts.allow
[09:27] <john_b>  /etc/exports
[09:27] <john_b>  /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/lts.conf
[09:27] <john_b>  /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
[09:28] <john_b> but ended with a non-working ltsp
[09:28] <john_b> Am I missing a file that needs to be edited?
[09:30] <john_b> oh and I changed the nic address and subnet too.
[10:52] <JessicaX^> :o


[12:01] <Hoodster> sivang: Just thinking about what I will contribute next.
[12:02] <Hoodster> sivang: I added to the FAQ recently and, with the help of hornbeck, I was able to upload it, but I got a message that the file I was uploading was no longer there. It could be that the message was specific to the message I included with the upload (not sure how to describe it.
[12:04] <Hoodster> sivang: Who is my best bet to tell me if it uploaded okay. ChrisH? plovs? hornbeck? Whose in charge (hehe)?
[12:07] <enrico> WE've just had a nice earthquake here
[12:08] <__daniel> WOW?
[12:08] <__daniel> where was that, enrico?
[12:08] <enrico> Hello.  Elmo asks for a timescale when the first failed login reportedly happened
[12:08] <enrico> __daniel: Italy, Emilia Romagna (middle-north)
[12:08] <__daniel> wow
[12:09] <enrico> People, let's tell Elmo: when is the first time you had a failed login in the wiki?
[12:09] <__daniel> enrico: i had problems (and this crappy error message about 2 hours ago)
[12:10] <enrico> __daniel: do you remember the error message?
[12:11] <__daniel> "connection ... unexpectedly"
[12:11] <__daniel> so no wiki-error
[12:11] <__daniel> more a http error
[12:15] <enrico> 00:12 <elmo> yeah, ok thanks.  ssl broke - I'm trying to figure out why
[12:18] <enrico> The firemen are on their ways on the wiki, then
[12:18] <__daniel> COOOOOOL
[12:18] <enrico> Here instead everything seems quite again after the earthquake (except a fagiano (a big big bird) that got upset by his tree-bed shaking and complained loudly for a while)
[12:20] <__daniel> enrico: i never experienced an earthquake before
[12:22] <enrico> __daniel: try logging in again
[12:23] <__daniel> *REJOICE!*
[12:30] <__daniel> am i not supposed to use
[12:30] <__daniel> = bla
[12:30] <__daniel> and
[12:30] <__daniel> == blubb ==
[12:30] <__daniel> in the wiki texts ?
[12:31] <enrico> With moin formatting, you use "= title ="
[12:31] <__daniel> ah... ok
[12:31] <__daniel> hmmm
[12:31] <__daniel> doesnt really work
[12:32] <__daniel> <--- as dumb as it gets wikily-speaking :-)
[12:32] <enrico> Did you select "Moin formatting" at the bottom?
[12:32] <__daniel> "structured text"
[12:34] <__daniel> hmmmmmmm :-/
[12:36] <enrico> __daniel: well, just select "Moin formatting" (the last option) instead
[12:36] <__daniel> there is no such option
[12:36] <enrico> __daniel: uh?  Let me see..
[12:36] <__daniel> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/academicinvolvement
[12:36] <enrico> __daniel: "MoinMoin markup"
[12:36] <enrico> __daniel: it's the last option
[12:36] <enrico> gh!!
[12:36] <enrico> It's not there on your!
[12:37] <enrico> It's not there on yours!
[12:37] <__daniel> *STRANGE*
[12:37] <__daniel> i'll make it html then ;-)
[12:38] <sm> that's no moon...
[12:38] <enrico> __daniel: is that a wiki page?  It's got a name in all lowercase
[12:38] <sm> it's a.. Document
[12:38] <__daniel> d'oh
[12:38] <__daniel> hop i can i delete
[12:51] <__daniel> hope
[12:51] <sm> click the contents tab, scroll till you find it, check the box and click delete button at the bottom
[12:51] <sm> it's right at the end.. batch number 6
[12:51] <__daniel> sorry for messing around :-/
[12:51] <sm> not your fault
[12:51] <sm> I don't think those other content types should be available in this folder
[12:51] <__daniel> seems i cant delete it
[12:51] <__daniel> only rename and change state
[12:51] <sm> so you can see it at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/folder_contents?b_start:int=500 - but no delete button ?
[12:51] <enrico> sivang, ChrisH: around?
[12:51] <__daniel> i'll "undo" it
[12:51] <sm> good idea
[12:51] <__daniel> hmm... blows up the "undo"er
[12:51] <sm> just so I understand - you can see the listing, but not the delete button ?
[12:51] <__daniel> exactly
[12:51] <sivang> enrico : yes
[12:51] <sm> and what happened when you click plone's undo link ?
[12:51] <__daniel> Error Type                                           MultipleUndoErrors
[12:51] <__daniel> Error Value                                       Undo error<PHONE_NUMBER>025507: Undo error<PHONE_NUMBER>025507: no previous record
[12:51] <__daniel> Request made at                                       2004/11/24 23:45:44.117 GMT
[12:51] <enrico> sivang: I started the docteam-tools work as I said in the list, and I'd like to svn-commit it somewhere
[12:51] <__daniel>                                   Error Type                                           OverflowError                                                                              Error Value                                       long int too large to convert to int                                                        Request made at                                       2004/11/24 23:46:48.100 GMT
[12:51] <sivang> enrico : what is it?
[12:51] <enrico> sivang: can I just go on and commit is as a new directory in Hornbeck's repository?
[12:51] <sivang> enrico : give that a try if not, just mail hornbeck , is this the deb pacakge with the utilitites?
[12:51] <enrico> sivang: see my mail in reply to Nick Loeve in the list, subject "Guidelines for writing?"
[12:51] <sm> __daniel:  ugh
[12:51] <sm> does it do this every time you click it ?
[12:51] <enrico> sivang: and also, could you please tell me the commit URI to access subversion?
[12:51] <sivang> enrico : could you tell me how do I poll it out of the svn config?
[12:51] <__daniel> sm: i tried different combinations and started to undo one by one
[12:51] <sm> ah I see, you got this when undoing something
[12:51] <enrico> sivang: svn info from inside the repository
[12:51] <sm> that's not too unusual.. zope/plone can't always undo things
[12:51] <__daniel> sm: yes :-)
[12:51] <sivang> URL: http://<IP_ADDRESS>/faq
[12:51] <sivang> Repository UUID: 1e033ed4-87e8-0310-8703-d68c7bbd86c9
[12:51] <sivang> Revision: 59
[12:51] <sivang> Node Kind: directory
[12:51] <sivang> Schedule: normal
[12:51] <sivang> Last Changed Author: plovs
[12:51] <sivang> Last Changed Rev: 59
[12:51] <sivang> Last Changed Date: 2004-11-23 18:07:01 +0200 (Tue, 23 Nov 2004)
[12:51] <sm> I have to go shortly, I think the quick solution is for me to delete this for you and restrict the content types so people don't accidentally add documents in this folder
[12:51] <__daniel> hmmm is there any wiki operator, who could delete it? :-)
[12:51] <__daniel> sm: ahhhh that sounds good
[12:51] <sm> just grab a copy of your text first, ok ?
[12:51] <sivang> enrico : can't find your mail, could you resend to me so I can take a look?
[12:51] <__daniel> sm: i did
[12:52] <__daniel> sm: stupid me :-)
[12:52] <sm> deleted
[12:52] <__daniel> sm: great
[12:53] <sm> thanks for the information
[12:58] <__daniel> sm: am i supposed to change the (quite generic) wiki page name?
[12:58] <enrico> sivang: forwarded
[12:58] <sivang> enrico : thnks
[12:58] <__daniel> is this "wiki_page.2004-11-24.3894835681" in order?
[12:58] <enrico> Magnitude 5.2 richter (www.themeter.net/sism.htm)
[12:58] <__daniel> enrico: WOW
[12:58] <enrico> And cool enough, information spread quickly over instant messaging and other internet chats rather than in the usual info channels :)
[12:58] <__daniel> ha... :-)
[01:02] <sm> __daniel: if you use the plone add item link at the top, yes - give it a real name
[01:03] <sm> but I recommend you use the wiki create form down at the bottom instead
[01:03] <sm> or start by creating a WikiLink in the usual wiki way
[01:03] <sm> by editing the page you want to link from
[01:03] <__daniel> i did it :-)
[01:03] <sm> good good
[01:04] <__daniel> now i'll write to -devel and -users for additional ideas/comments
[01:19] <__daniel> i guess that's enough for today...
[01:19] <__daniel> i'm off to bed
[01:19] <__daniel> have a good night, guys  :-)
[01:24] <enrico> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Quakes/usrfcl.htm
[01:27] <sivang> enrico : was it felt?
[01:28] <enrico> sivang: yes, it's the one I mentioned in the channel before
[01:29] <sivang> wo, everything is ok?
[01:29] <enrico> Here yes
[01:29] <enrico> Near the epicenter, maybe less
[02:16] <sivang> night!
[02:38] <enrico> Good night everyone!
[03:08] <George^D^Work> hi all
[03:10] <hornbeck> hello
[03:12] <hornbeck> man this version of xchat is ugly
[03:12] <hornbeck> h
[03:51] <hornbeck> hey plocs
[03:51] <hornbeck> plovs
[03:51] <hornbeck> :-)
[04:19] <George^D^Work> hornbeck: arnt all versions of xchat ugly
[04:20] <hornbeck> the one I was using the other day was not
[04:20] <hornbeck> I just reinstalled hoary and it is very ugly
[04:54] <George^D^Work> the warty one is ugly
[05:03] <Hoodster> Hi all! I have a quick question. I attempted to upload to the repository and it appeared to work. What is the best way to confirm it? I am still a bit green with svn.
[05:24] <hornbeck> just svn update and see if the revision goes up
[05:24] <hornbeck> that is how I do it :-)
[05:24] <hornbeck> see you guys later
[06:57] <George^D^Work> cya all
[07:07] <hornbeck> hello?
[07:10] <hornbeck> you guys sleep to much :-)
[07:39] <hornbeck> night
[10:23] <lulu> morning all :o)
[10:29] <plovs_> hi guys!
[10:29] <plovs_> networking is *hard*
[10:30] <plovs_> let's see how long i'll be online this time
[10:38] <lulu> plovs_:hey Alex!
[10:39] <plovs_> lulu: morning, how are you today
[10:39] <lulu> Great :o) how are you?
[10:40] <plovs_> rather busy
[10:40] <lulu> plovs_: Is there anything you waiting for from me - I have a long to do list and may have forgotten...
[10:40] <lulu> besides wiki and svn move (James Troup)
[10:42] <plovs_> lulu: i (just) forwarded you a mail from james, wiki move is done, so that's nice
[10:42] <plovs_> will james be in barcelona?
[10:43] <lulu> plovs_: awesome...and yes - he's a great key Canonical guy!
[10:44] <plovs_> nice, it will be easier to get stuff done if you know and thay know whom they are talking with
[10:45] <plovs_> for the rest, as far as i'm concerned you're home-free, no jobs waiting, afaik
[10:49] <plovs_> lulu: you're using a mac, right?
[10:49] <lulu> plovs_:home free - I wish :o)....and yes - using  a Mac laptop G4
[10:49] <lulu> why?
[11:11] <Presskopp> hi
[11:30] <lulu> Presskopp: welcome!
[12:02] <George^Deka> hi all
[12:02] <George^Deka> i broke my ubuntu
[12:04] <Presskopp> hi George^Deka
[12:05] <Presskopp> what happened?
[12:06] <George^Deka>  i installed firefox from hoary, now when the system boots it does not load gdm instead i get a curses screen telling me x is already running on 0 do you want to try it again on 0 or on another session
[12:07] <Presskopp> hmmm.
[12:07] <Presskopp> i assume that notonly firefox but other packages from hoary have been installed?
[12:08] <George^Deka> yes some libs
[12:09] <George^Deka> cant remeber which ones
[12:09] <George^Deka> but thinking about it maybe libprobe
[12:10] <George^Deka> and dial-up hell is no good, cant dist-upgrade
[12:10] <Presskopp> what happens when you press <alt>+f7 when that curses-screen occurs?
[12:11] <Presskopp> maybe gdm starts...
[12:12] <George^Deka> didndt try alt-f7
[12:12] <Presskopp> okay.
[12:12] <Presskopp> you could try to reinstall gdm.
[12:12] <George^Deka> good idea, i eneded up getting in going f1, then logging and startx
[12:13] <Presskopp> did it work?
[12:13] <Presskopp> i have to go to lunch with my colleagues. will be back in 30 minutes. sorry.
[12:14] <George^Deka> yeah that worked, im in now
[12:14] <George^Deka> k cya
[12:14] <George^Deka> prob off by then
[12:39] <George^Deka> hi enrico
[12:39] <George^Deka> i love your hostmask :)
[12:43] <enrico> hi!
[12:44] <enrico> George^Deka: :)  this came kind of automatic
[01:04] <Presskopp> re
[01:25] <sivang> HI ALL!
[01:25] <sivang> oops
[01:25] <sivang> the caps
[01:26] <Presskopp> hi sivang
[01:26] <ChrisH> sivang: Hi, AOL user. :)
[01:26] <sivang> ChrisH : hi :)
[01:26] <sivang> Hey Presskopp , fisrt time on the -doc channel?
[01:26] <sivang> hey lulu
[01:26] <Presskopp> yes
[01:26] <lulu> sivang: hiya :o)
[01:26] <ChrisH> [print "Hello, ", user for user in /who]
[01:26] <Presskopp> need to improve my idling-skills... ;o)
[01:27] <sivang> Hey Hoodster
[01:27] <sivang> ChrisH : heh
[01:27] <sivang> So, the old wiki is moved?
[01:28] <sivang> Hi enrico, what's up?
[01:29] <sivang> sm : Hi Simon, would you care for bits of Plone/Meduca questions? :)
[01:47] <ChrisH> sivang: I hadn't believed it... but python really makes many things easier than in perl. Drawback: the source is still readable. ;)
[01:48] <Hoodster> Hi Sivang: Hi ChrisH:
[01:49] <sivang> ChrisH : well, this is the one feature I just cannot seaize to astonish by - the lanugage drives you to write readable code
[01:49] <ChrisH> Hoodster: hey... :)
[01:50] <sivang> Hoodster : hey again hoodster, how's work coming? :)
[01:50] <Hoodster> Chris: Good.
[01:51] <Hoodster> ChrisH: Sorry for taking so long, it can be hectic here (hehe)
[01:51] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I uploaded a file earlier this week and I am not sure if it worked. I got a strange message. How do I tell if it uploaded okay?
[01:51] <ChrisH> Hoodster: Who do you tell? I'm home this week and still my to do list shrinks slowly. :)
[01:53] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I know what you mean. Not only am I working full time, but I am preparing to make a big move (relocating).
[01:53] <ChrisH> Hoodster: full time for Ubuntu? :)
[01:56] <Hoodster> ChrisH: hehe, no not full time for Ubuntu. I don't have that aspiration. I like being a volunteer. However, if they paid me what I get now, I just might consider it (hehe)
[01:56] <ChrisH> Hoodster: Hehe. I would probably still stay at my current employer. It's nice to work for Ubuntu. But I rather have coworkers around me than doing a "virtual job" all the time.
[02:11] <Hoodster> ChrisH: What is nice about Ubuntu? Just curious (hehe). I know nothing about the company (Canonical?)
[02:11] <ChrisH> Hoodster: The company seems to stay in the background as much as possible (Would be distracting if a commercial sponsor dictates what volunteers had to do.)
[02:11] <Hoodster> ChrisH: Thank you for the introduction to the Ubuntu team. It was a great read.
[02:11] <enrico> sivang: Hi!  I was having lunch
[02:11] <ChrisH> Hoodster: you are welcome :)
[02:11] <ChrisH> Hoodster: I like the code-of-conduct in ubuntu. I was flamed once too often in Debian. This hasn't happened here.
[02:11] <ChrisH> Hoodster: I like that it's focusing on the end-user, has regular releases and the community is a lot smaller (still).
[02:11] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I agree. The group is very cordial to others. However, I have never been really involved in a volunteer effort like Ubuntu.
[02:11] <sivang> ChrisH : you should have seen it in the early days before preview release :) it mas MUCH smaller, and so quiter...ahh memories...:)
[02:11] <sivang> ubuntu-devel didn
[02:11] <Hoodster> ChrisH: Yes, it is important to get involved in the beginning, when the pond is small.
[02:11] <ChrisH> Hoodster: It's quite fun. Contribute as much or little as you like. Nobody forces anyone to do anything. Just if you take a certain task you are asked to do it in time. :)
[02:11] <sivang> even exists
[02:11] <ChrisH> Hoodster: Like... you could bring me another cappuccino. ;)
[02:11] <ChrisH> enrico: Ah thanks.  Boss: "oh, your Windows crashed again? well, better get working on it."
[02:11] <enrico> ChrisH: lol! :)
[02:11] <sivang> ChrisH : what's the pkg name for the screen saver?
[02:11] <enrico> sivang: xscreensaver?
[02:11] <ChrisH> sivang: It's in the xscreensaver package that comes with ubuntu. Just select the BSOD saver
[02:11] <enrico> I'm in love with that screen saver as well
[02:11] <enrico> and with apt-get moo
[02:11] <ChrisH> moo?
[02:11] <enrico> ChrisH: just run it...
[02:11] <enrico> (as user, if you don't trust me)
[02:11] <ChrisH> ARGH!
[02:11] <ChrisH> /rofl/
[02:11] <enrico> ChrisH: read at the end of apt-get --help
[02:11] <ChrisH> rofl^2
[02:11] <enrico> ChrisH: now try aptitude --help
[02:12] <ChrisH> Awww.. :)
[02:12] <enrico> ChrisH: and of course aptitude moo
[02:12] <sivang>       This APT has Super Cow Powers.
[02:12] <sivang> There are no Easter Eggs in this program.
[02:12] <sivang>  ?
[02:12] <sivang> :)))
[02:12] <ChrisH> And I wonder why Sarge is not yet released...
[02:12] <sivang>                   This aptitude does not have Super Cow Powers.
[02:12] <sivang> hahahaha
[02:12] <Hoodster> Hey guys, I seem to have forgotten the command that will update my local files. I thought is was svn update, but I don't think that is correct. Can anyone spare a hint?
[02:12] <sivang> ROTF
[02:12] <sivang> L
[02:13] <ChrisH> Hoodster: svn up
[02:13] <ChrisH> Hoodster: that's right
[02:13] <sivang> how do I run cappuccino?
[02:13] <ChrisH> sivang: command line
[02:13] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I get the message "Won't delete locally modified file 'install-issue.xml' what does that mean?
[02:14] <ChrisH> Hoodster: the file has been deleted in the repository but you changed it... subversion saves you from having your changes being lost
[02:15] <enrico> 1) dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig
[02:15] <ChrisH> enrico: btw... what's your plan regarding Debian? Are you still contributing there or are you migrating completely?
[02:15] <enrico> 2) Enable bitmapped fonts
[02:15] <enrico> 3) Install xfonts-terminus
[02:15] <enrico> 4) Set the monospace font to terminus
[02:16] <enrico> ChrisH: Oh, no, I keep contributing to Debian
[02:16] <enrico> ChrisH: I actually like Debian a lot and I'd like it to be able to move past its problems, and to help that
[02:17] <Hoodster> ChrisH: It has been deleted? But I updated that file (hehe). Now I have to figure out which file to transfer the change. Oh well (hehe)
[02:17] <ChrisH> enrico: Good to hear that. I will probably need you again as a moral encourager in the future. :)
[02:17] <sivang> enrico : xfonts-terminus is for all locales?
[02:18] <enrico> ChrisH: :)
[02:18] <enrico> sivang: probably not, unfortunately
[02:18] <enrico> sivang: wait a sec, I check my spam folder
[02:18] <sivang> enrico : :)
[02:18] <ChrisH> Hoodster: Just take a look at the new structure.  I changed the whole structure so I couldn't be 100% backwards compatible. Sorry about the additional work.
[02:19] <ChrisH> enrico: hmmm... Terminus looks a little ugly here :(
[02:19] <enrico> it has cyrillic, chinese, japanese, but I can't see hebrew so far
[02:19] <enrico> ChrisH: strange
[02:20] <Hoodster> ChrisH: It really isn't a problem. I was trying to be humorous in a sarcastic kind of way, which probably doesn't work very well in a chat (hehe). When you say the new structure, do you mean the 'usersguide.xml' file?
[02:20] <ChrisH> enrico: monospace is still a lot more readable here... the spacing looks smoother
[02:20] <ChrisH> Hoodster: yes, sir
[02:20] <enrico> ChrisH: My problem is that monospace gets antialiased, and this makes everything blurry.  If I could find how to avoid antialiasing on monospace, I'd be super-happy
[02:21] <sivang> enric : error: "Font `-*-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-*-140-*-*-*-*-iso8859-15' is not defined"
[02:21] <ChrisH> enrico: problem: terminus was antialiased, too!
[02:21] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I don't see the part that has installing non-free software. What happened to that?
[02:21] <sivang> enrico : do you know where I can find that font?
[02:21] <sivang> enrico : (this is for emacs)
[02:23] <sivang> enrico : btw, Martin Michlmayar is doing a very interesting research for his PhD , habe you had chacne to read some of the papers?
[02:23] <ChrisH> Hoodster: in the userguide?
[02:26] <enrico> sivang: apt-get install xfonts-terminus
[02:26] <enrico> sivang: no, I haven't read tbm's papers yet
[02:26] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I think I am out-of-touch on what has happened over the past week (things move quickly,hehe). Do you mean that there are two parts to the FAQ? A Userguide and the original FAQ?
[02:27] <sivang> enrico : installed the terminus pacakge..
[02:27] <enrico> I should stay away no more than 3 hours
[02:27] <sivang> ok, c'ya soon enrico!
[02:28] <Presskopp> hey, as the topic is that fonts-stuff...
[02:29] <Presskopp> on debian- and ubuntu-systems some programs have that ugly big fonts.
[02:29] <Presskopp> can i fix that issue with dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig also?
[02:34] <enrico> Presskopp: it's probably a question which has more luck in #ubuntu; you may also want to explain better what do you intend with "ugly big fonts", maybe posting a link to a screenshot
[02:34] <Hoodster> ChrisH: The reason I ask about the status of th FAQ is that I can't open it with yelp. I almost feel lost (lol).
[02:34] <Presskopp> enrico: mmmkay. thx. :o)
[02:42] <sivang> Hoodster : warty/hoary?
[02:43] <Hoodster> sivang: I use warty.
[02:44] <sivang> Hoodster : ok, have you checked out the recent version of the userguide.xml ?
[02:44] <sivang> (including all it's subtrees)
[02:53] <Hoodster> sivang: I think so. But I always wonder if I have the most recent version. I did do a svn update, but I don't know if I am using the most up-to-date repository. (hehe)
[02:58] <sivang> Hoodster : what is the problem with your yelp? does it inform of any error?
[03:01] <Hoodster> sivang: Thank you for replying. I think things will get confusing quickly. So, I must step back and explain a little. I think part of the problem is me (hehe). First, I can open the user-guide.xml file okay with yelp. No problem there, so I think yelp works. I only have a problem opening the faq.xml file (no error message, just freezes).
[03:15] <sivang> Hoodster : no prob :) I think the old faq.xml should not be used anymore, as we have transsited to the new layout, however you can send me that file (I do not know from where to check it out) the file I'll try and see if my yelp eats it
[03:15] <ChrisH> Hoodster: oh, it works with yelp here
[03:16] <sivang> ChrisH : should it be used anymore , the old faq.xml ?
[03:18] <ChrisH> sivang: nope, should be deleted in the repository anyway
[03:20] <sivang> ChrisH : ok, wanted to make sure my answers were correct.
[03:23] <Hoodster> ChrisH:  sivang: I do appreciate all the replies. I think what I will do is a complete checkout and see if I have better results.
[03:23] <sivang> Hoodster : ok, no prob. We try :)
[03:24] <ChrisH> Hoodster: good idea
[03:26] <Hoodster> ChrisH: sivang: I seem to have failed to write down the url to the repository. I think it started with a 19xxxx. Can you provide it?
[03:28] <sivang> Hoodster : Path: .
[03:28] <sivang> URL: http://<IP_ADDRESS>/faq
[03:28] <sivang> Repository UUID: 1e033ed4-87e8-0310-8703-d68c7bbd86c9
[03:28] <sivang> Revision: 59
[03:28] <sivang> Node Kind: directory
[03:28] <sivang> Schedule: normal
[03:28] <sivang> Last Changed Author: plovs
[03:28] <sivang> Last Changed Rev: 59
[03:28] <sivang> Last Changed Date: 2004-11-23 18:07:01 +0200 (Tue, 23 Nov 2004)
[03:29] <Hoodster> sivang: Thanks!
[03:29] <sivang> Hoodster : no prob :)
[03:31] <Hoodster> sivang: ChrisH: More question. This repository is very, very different from my local directory. There is no faq xml file. Should this be so?
[03:31] <Hoodster> cd parts
[03:31] <sivang> Hoodster :hmm, I must consult my svn expert here, ChrisH ?
[03:32] <Presskopp> what about a "svn info" or a "svn status"?
[03:33] <Presskopp> maybe one might see something interesting within that information?
[03:34] <ChrisH> Hoodster: that's right
[03:34] <ChrisH> Hoodster: I changed the *whole* structure of the document. So nothing is where it was before.
[03:34] <Hoodster> Presskopp: That is a good tip. That is a good way to what the repository URL is.
[03:35] <Hoodster> ChrisH: So, there is no FAQ file anymore or it is in a different repository. Which is correct? Or is there another? (hehe)
[03:35] <ChrisH> Hoodster: The FAQ has been merged into a user guide.
[03:35] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I like the new structure. I am just having trouble orienting myself to the info that was there (hehe)
[03:37] <ChrisH> Hoodster: check out the README
[03:37] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I will do that now.
[03:37] <hornbeck> Hello all
[03:38] <Presskopp> hi hornbeck
[03:38] <Hoodster> Hi hornbeck
[03:38] <ChrisH> hI h0rnb3ck
[03:39] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I read the README file and I didn't see info that answers my questions. (hehe) But I should read that file often, good thing to do.
[03:42] <Hoodster> ChrisH: I can't find the non-free info that was in the older faq.xml in the usersguide.xml. If it is there, let me know and I will keep searching. If it is not, then perhaps this info is no longer desirable. I am just trying to understand the new changes and whether I should forget about the work I had done previously or try to include it (hehe)
[03:44] <hornbeck> rebooting
[03:52] <Presskopp> bye


[14:30] <Brainstorm> Updates for Bangladesh: +1555 cases (now 1.5 million), +26 deaths (now 27251) since 22 hours ago


[05:41] <DanaG> http://armdevices.net/2010/06/03/ubuntu-10-4-on-marvell-armada-510/
[05:41] <DanaG> hmm.
[05:41] <DanaG> I see lack of compiz. :(
[10:10] <ogra> GrueMaster, jasper is in the repo since beginning of the month


[01:14] <tmaster> Hi. I've seen in Windows for FF 4 that there is the Firefox button in the upper left hand corner. How do I get that enabled in Edubuntu?
[01:19] <tmaster> LIST
[13:55] <mgariepy> good morning everyone
[13:59] <mgariepy> good morning everyone
[14:35] <highvoltage> good morning
[15:49] <dgroos> and Good Morning


[16:48] <nhandler> Still waiting on final confirmation, but there is a 99% chance that we are good to hold the release party at my office.
[16:59] <nhandler> I guess that means we should figure out what we actually want to do at the party. Was anyone interested in giving a talk?
[18:09] <DonkeyHotei> there have not been talks at past release parties but there have been book signings
[18:16] <nhandler> s/talks/mini presentations and demos/ :)
[18:17] <DonkeyHotei> that's talks