[00:16] <thumper> menn0: meeting?
[00:17] <menn0> thumper: browser is refusing to connect
[00:18] <thumper> tried turning it off and on again?
[00:30] <menn0> thumper: my connecitivty to bluejeans seems flaky today
[00:30] <menn0> thumper: internet is working otherwise
[00:30]  * thumper nods
[05:10] <rock_> redir/rich_k: Thank you for escalating my issue. How do I contact UIteam as <rich_h> mentioned.
[05:11] <redir> rock_: try #juju-gui here on freenode
[05:12] <mhilton> rock_: I can probably help you out
[05:13] <mhilton> rock_: what do you need?
[05:13] <rock_> redir: Thanks.
[05:13] <rock_> mhilton : Thank you.
[05:14] <redir> rock_: np, sorry I couldn't be of more help
[05:15] <rock_> mhilton: I will send clear info.
[05:15] <rock_> redir: No problem. I am happy with your support.
[05:17] <rock_> mhilton: Compllte issue details: http://paste.openstack.org/show/589216/
[05:17] <mhilton> rock_, thanks I'll take a look
[05:18] <rock_> mhilton: Ok. Thank you.
[09:17] <rock_> mhilton: Hmmm. thank you very much. One main issue resolved . but we have another issue as I mentioned in the Bug https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/jujucharms.com/issues/372
[10:33] <mhilton> rock_: the old kaminario are now no longer available.
[10:45] <rogpeppe> voidspace: hiya
[10:47] <rogpeppe> anyone know what the best way is to get all logs from a HA controller?
[10:50] <mgz> rogpeppe: in what fashion? you can just look at log files on all the machines, but there's also an api call that gathers it up for you
[10:50] <rogpeppe> mgz: do you have a moment for a chat?
[10:50] <mgz> rogpeppe: sure, lets
[11:09] <voidspace> rogpeppe: hey, hi
[11:09] <rogpeppe> voidspace: hiya
[11:09] <rogpeppe> voidspace: sorry, i was just fishing for people that might know about juju loggging :)
[11:09] <rogpeppe> voidspace: mgz bit
[11:10] <voidspace> rogpeppe: hah, I used to know about logging - but we changed it :-)
[11:10] <rogpeppe> voidspace: me too :)
[11:10] <voidspace> rogpeppe: mgz is handy to have around...
[11:10] <rogpeppe> voidspace: that he is
[11:18] <rock_> mhilton: Thank you very much. My all issues resolved.
[11:19] <mhilton> rock_: glad to hear it, happy jujuing
[11:27] <voidspace> really short PR for someone: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6567
[11:27] <voidspace> rogpeppe: just FYI, I changed the cookie file locking mechanism in persistent-cookiejar to use juju/mutex
[11:27] <voidspace> rogpeppe: https://github.com/juju/persistent-cookiejar/pull/19
[11:28] <voidspace> rogpeppe: PR 6567 switches to using the newer version
[11:28] <rogpeppe> voidspace: hmm, not sure about that
[11:28] <rogpeppe> voidspace: why?
[11:28] <voidspace> rogpeppe: this addresses https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-wait/+bug/1632362
[11:28] <mup> Bug #1632362: error during juju-wait ERROR cannot load cookies: file locked for too long; giving up: cannot acquire lock: resource temporarily unavailable <eda> <oil> <juju:In Progress by mfoord> <Juju Wait Plugin:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1632362>
[11:28] <voidspace> rogpeppe: file based locking is unreliable (possibility of stale lock files - that's what we found in juju and why we switched to juju/mutex)
[11:29] <voidspace> rogpeppe: plus the exponential backoff in the old locking mechanism meant it would only poll the lockfile 4 times or so
[11:29] <rogpeppe> voidspace: it didn't use file-based locking
[11:29] <rogpeppe> voidspace: except when absolutely necessary
[11:29] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the exponential backoff is another issue
[11:30] <rogpeppe> voidspace: which indeed sounds like a bug
[11:30] <voidspace> rogpeppe: pretty sure the old lockFile function used file based locking
[11:30] <rogpeppe> voidspace: it used flock
[11:30] <rogpeppe> voidspace: which is file-based but doesn't suffer from the stale lock file issue
[11:31] <voidspace> right, juju/mutex is still good :-)
[11:31] <voidspace> and standardising on a single file locking mechanism is good
[11:32] <rogpeppe> voidspace: for future reference, please squash commits down to a single commit before submitting
[11:32] <voidspace> kk
[11:33] <rogpeppe> voidspace: that's true of all our projects FWIW
[11:35] <rogpeppe> voidspace: 100us seems like a bit quick if you're going to be polling for a long time
[11:43] <voidspace> rogpeppe: isn't it ms?
[11:44] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ah, it's not...
[11:44] <rogpeppe> voidspace: not by my reading of the code
[11:44] <voidspace> rogpeppe: yeah, I think you're right
[11:44] <voidspace> rogpeppe: every 100us is probably too much
[11:44] <rogpeppe> voidspace: originally it was 100us because it would exponentially backoff
[11:44] <rogpeppe> voidspace: which i think is still a good thing to do
[11:44] <voidspace> yeah, that means I'm wrong about the number of polls too
[11:44] <rogpeppe> voidspace: it should probably exponentially back off up to a maximum delay
[11:44] <rogpeppe> voidspace: which is easy to obtain
[11:45] <voidspace> sure
[11:45] <rogpeppe> voidspace: but not using juju/mutex
[11:45] <voidspace> well, I think a fixed number of polls is fine too
[11:45] <voidspace> and we really want to just maintain one set of locking code
[11:46] <voidspace> but you're right 100us is too frequent I'll look again
[11:46] <voidspace> and I think the whole retry loop within persistent-cookiejar may be unneeded with juju/mutex
[11:49] <rogpeppe> voidspace: agreed, but i think exponential backoff is an appropriate strategy, but not one that juju/mutex uses
[11:49] <rogpeppe> voidspace: tbh i'm not sure that the locking package should be doing the retry loop - it's easy for callers to do that and that gives them all the flexibility they need
[11:49] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I agree it's an appropriate strategy, I don't think fixed polling is inappropriate though, it simplifies the code and means we use one consistent file locking mechanism throughout
[11:50] <voidspace> rogpeppe: and hopefully it fixes a critical bug too
[11:50] <voidspace> we'll see
[11:51] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'm not going to debate it endlessly unless you can suggest another fix for the bug, sorry
[11:51] <voidspace> coffee - brb
[11:51] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i'll take a longer look at the bug in a bit - i'm on a call currently
[11:53] <rogpeppe> mgz, mhilton: i just raised https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1641927
[11:53] <mup> Bug #1641927: debug-log on a model doesn't log any provisioner events <juju:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641927>
[11:59] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ok - the underlying issue (I'm pretty sure) is the "juju status" attempts to read the cookie file for all models simultaneously
[11:59] <rogpeppe> voidspace: really? it should only be reading the cookie file once
[11:59] <voidspace> well, maybe "pretty sure" is the wrong phrase...
[11:59] <rogpeppe> voidspace: for each juju command
[12:00] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'll take a look - the error is that acquiring the lock times out in "juju status" when there are multiple models
[12:00] <rogpeppe> voidspace: but i guess you'd have significant contention if you're running lots of concurrently juju comands
[12:00] <voidspace> rogpeppe: it's triggered by the juju-wait plugin that polls status
[12:00] <rogpeppe> voidspace: if this is the problem then your fix won't address the issue, i reckon
[12:01] <rogpeppe> voidspace: ah, do you know where that lives?
[12:01] <voidspace> rogpeppe: reading the cookie file should not take very long
[12:01] <rogpeppe> voidspace: indeed
[12:01] <voidspace> rogpeppe: no, but the bug is in "juju status" not the plugin itself
[12:01] <voidspace> and the specific bug is the timeout in persistent-cookiejar
[12:01] <rogpeppe> voidspace: so the plugin invokes juju status for each model?
[12:02] <voidspace> rogpeppe:: ah, not sure about that
[12:02] <rogpeppe> voidspace: do you know where the juju-wait plugin source code is?
[12:02] <voidspace> rogpeppe: no, reading the bug report - it's for a given model
[12:03] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I believe https://code.launchpad.net/juju-wait
[12:03] <rogpeppe> voidspace: thanks
[12:03] <voidspace> I'm looking now
[12:04] <voidspace> and specifically: https://git.launchpad.net/juju-wait/tree/juju_wait/__init__.py
[12:09] <voidspace> leadership_poll can call juju concurrently.
[12:10] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'm pretty sure if we take this to the tech board though, they will greatly prefer juju/mutex over an flock approach - as (if my memory is correct) we still had problems with that in juju which is *why* juju/mutex was written
[12:11] <voidspace> rogpeppe: and if the bug is genuinely lock contention then my changes *should* fix it - although they're not quite correct (polling too many times currently and the loop left in)
[12:11] <rogpeppe> voidspace: juju/mutex uses flock in some cases
[12:11] <rogpeppe> voidspace: unix domain sockets are not a decent solution
[12:11] <rogpeppe> voidspace: as they cannot work if you're using a shared fs
[12:12] <voidspace> well, I can take that to the tech board and see what they say - but I still need to fix the bug
[12:12] <rogpeppe> voidspace: did you manage to reproduce the bug?
[12:13] <voidspace> rogpeppe: nope
[12:13] <rogpeppe> voidspace: so how do you know you've fixed it?
[12:13] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I provided custom binaries for the OIL folk to try
[12:13] <voidspace> rogpeppe: they want to wait until it gets into a PPA it seems
[12:14] <voidspace> rogpeppe: so getting the change into develop is the best way to find out currently - see rick's comment on the bug
[12:14] <voidspace> but if it *is* lock contention (or stale lock file), it should be fixed
[12:26] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the reason juju/mutex was written was because the old juju lock mechanism relied on actual file creation
[12:27] <rogpeppe> voidspace: and the one that persistent-cookiejar is using was NIH
[12:27] <rogpeppe> voidspace: although that last reason is not necessarily the case :)
[12:27] <voidspace> heh
[12:28] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I still think, and I think others are likely to agree, that maintaining a single file locking mechanism is a great benefit
[12:28] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'll talk to the team about it in our standup
[12:29] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'll also fix the problems with the existing head of master on persistent-cookiejar and if necessary we can just roll all of that back and just tweak the parameters of the old mechanism
[12:30] <voidspace> rogpeppe: it's still the case that once the exponential back-off gets to 100ms delay it only does 4 *further* polls
[12:30] <voidspace> rogpeppe: so genuine lock contention is still a contender for cause of the bug - and yes I know we discussed above a way to fix that
[12:30] <rogpeppe> voidspace: yeah, it should back off to 100ms and then stay there for 2s or so
[12:31] <voidspace> cool
[12:33] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I can raise a bug against juju/mutex that it should allow exponential backoff (to a MaxDelay)
[12:33] <rogpeppe> voidspace: tbh i'd kinda prefer if the file locking mechanism was orthogonal to the retry loop
[12:33] <rogpeppe> voidspace: (which isn't to say that there shouldn't be a standard higher level function to acquire a lock with polling)
[12:34] <voidspace> which is *effectively* what juju/mutex provides, that "higher level function" no?
[12:35] <rogpeppe> voidspace: juju/mutex combines both.
[12:36] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the retry strategy depends quite a bit on what you're locking with respect to
[12:36] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I understand that you dislike that, I'm not really clear why (other than structural distaste)
[12:37] <voidspace> I've raised an issue against juju/mutex *anyway*
[12:40] <voidspace> ah, "tweakable retry strategy" - ok, understood
[12:40] <voidspace> I can explain this clearly to the team I think - we have two ways forward (revert and tweak or switch to juju/mutex)
[12:40] <voidspace> if we don't have consensus or feel we have enough understanding we'll take it to the tech board
[12:41] <voidspace> rogpeppe: and I'll copy you in
[12:42] <urulama> voidspace: so, by changing this without consulting with macaroon implementors you guys now will cover any possible problems that will arise from it, as we've used cookiejar for a while without any problems ... any macaroon issues on services in production and controller and so on, right?
[12:42] <voidspace> urulama: this is shared code by the juju team in the same way as any other code
[12:42] <voidspace> urulama: unless you want to take on this juju bug that seems to be caused by it?
[12:42] <urulama> voidspace: sure. np. just stating.
[12:43] <voidspace> urulama: I do not own this code, I will help where I can
[12:43] <urulama> all i am saying is i'm sure it has been properly tested and QA on all clients that depend on it
[12:44] <voidspace> urulama: I understand, this is true of any changes to shared code - there are risks
[12:44] <voidspace> urulama: and yes, it should be QA'd before any clients switch to the new version
[12:44] <voidspace> urulama: just like any other change
[12:44] <voidspace> urulama: I won't be paralysed by that though
[12:45] <voidspace> urulama: reverting is easy :-)
[12:45] <urulama> no need to revert, just stating that any change of the shared code needs to be properly tested before landing
[12:46] <voidspace> urulama: I mean if it causes problems
[12:46] <rogpeppe> voidspace: from an operational point of view I'm concerned that the persistent-cookiejar package is used by a bunch of external users (e.g. https://godoc.org/github.com/juju/persistent-cookiejar?importers) and that this breaks the existing semantics that the file is protected when using a shared filesystem
[12:47] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'm going to write this up - it is protected on a shared filesystem precisely *because* then it uses file based locking, right?
[12:47] <rogpeppe> voidspace: yes
[12:47] <rogpeppe> voidspace: if you want to lock a file, a file-based lock is a good way to do it
[12:48] <voidspace> rogpeppe: right, and (I believe) the experience/consensus of those who wrote juju/mutex is that file based locking *cannot* be made reliable (my understanding)
[12:48] <rogpeppe> voidspace: so if it's ok, i'm going to revert it for the time being and fix the timeout issue
[12:48] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i'm afraid i don't believe that
[12:48] <voidspace> rogpeppe: so I think there is a technical disagreement here
[12:48] <voidspace> *sigh*
[12:49] <voidspace> rogpeppe:  I disagree with your decision
[12:49] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the contention issue would have happened regardless of whether it was file-based or unix-domain-socket-based locking
[12:49] <voidspace> right, but with unix-domain-socket-based locking stale lock files are *not* possible
[12:49] <rogpeppe> voidspace: that's true with flock too
[12:49] <rick_h> rogpeppe: just for context this is a critical stakeholder issue preventing oil and others from functioning. We need a fix asap
[12:50] <voidspace> rogpeppe: if you can get contention fixed today we can try that and see if it resolves the issue
[12:50] <rick_h> rogpeppe: so if we need a better path please help identify and move on that path with as much urgency as possible.
[12:50] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i'll do it now
[12:50] <voidspace> rogpeppe: a longer timeout and a max delay
[12:50] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ok, thanks
[12:50] <rogpeppe> voidspace: should only take a 10 minutes
[12:50] <voidspace> rogpeppe: if that doesn't fix it we'll have to look at alternatives - I will work harder on a repro before doing that
[13:08] <rogpeppe> voidspace: https://github.com/juju/persistent-cookiejar/pull/21
[13:25] <voidspace> rogpeppe: thanks, looking
[13:27] <voidspace> rogpeppe: yep, LGTM (making sensible assumptions about the semantics of retry)
[13:27] <voidspace> rogpeppe: land it and we'll try it
[13:36] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ta
[13:36] <voidspace> rogpeppe: thanks for doing it so quickly
[13:36] <rogpeppe> voidspace: thanks for the review :)
[13:37] <voidspace> :-)
[13:47] <voidspace> natefinch: mgz:  macgreagoir:  very short review if you  have time: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6568
[13:55] <rick_h> macgreagoir: ping, can you peek at https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6563 please?
[13:55] <mgz> voidspace: lgtm
[13:58] <voidspace> mgz: you rock
[13:59] <mgz> rick_h: that change seems plausable, ideally we'd qa it
[13:59] <rick_h> mgz: the PR?
[14:00] <mgz> rick_h: yeah
[14:01] <rick_h> mgz: cool, I'm curious. It mentions firewall rules, but rackspace didn't have a firewall on things. /me wonders
[14:01] <mgz> rackspace is special
[14:01] <mgz> they don't really have any of the networking components enabled
[14:02] <mgz> so, we don't create security groups on rackspace, instead use a controller-sshs-in-and-futzes-with-conf method
[14:12] <macgreagoir> rick_h: belated ack on 6568
[14:15] <rick_h> macgreagoir: ty
[15:55] <deanman> evilnickveitch: Is it possible to syntax highligh with a specific color a specific word inside a code snippet ?
[15:56] <mgz> hml: wotcha, got some time to catch up in a sec?
[15:56] <evilnickveitch> deanman, Not the way we currently do it, no :(
[15:57] <evilnickveitch> The source just marks something as code. The syntax highlighting is handled by the javascript on the site
[15:58] <deanman> evilnickveitch: add image of the actual output then or adding images in general is not encouraged?
[15:58] <evilnickveitch> deanman, images are fine. In fact, we use quite a few images for output because of this
[15:59] <evilnickveitch> we just don't use them for commands etc, or stuff that people may want to cut and paste
[15:59] <evilnickveitch> deanman, was there a specific part of docs you had in mind for this?
[16:00] <deanman> evilnickveitch: https://jujucharms.com/docs/stable/help-openstack
[16:01] <deanman> evilnickveitch: `list-clouds` command doesn't seem to prefix with `local` anymore. Instead it colors the custom cloud as seen here https://s15.postimg.org/u8rz0stej/Screen_Shot_2016_11_15_at_17_21_21.png
[16:02] <hml> mgz: i’m here
[16:02] <deanman> evilnickveitch: Should i go forth and make minor wording adjustment and include image or any other suggestion ?
[16:03] <evilnickveitch>  deanman yeah, there were some late additions to the output for 2.0, and we haven't tidied them all up yet
[16:03] <evilnickveitch> deanman, please do!
[16:04] <evilnickveitch> deanman, you know where the docs live right? - https://github.com/juju/docs
[16:04] <mgz> hml: so, no alexis today but I think we want to go ahead and get your branches landed
[16:05] <mgz> hml: there's also https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6563 which will need to be rebased on your change
[16:05] <hml> mgz: sure - i don’t have permissions to do the $$merge$$ thing.
[16:05] <hml> mgz: i haven’t seen anything yet today, but has the juju code been reviewed?  i know you had some high level questions.
[16:05] <hml> mgz: i think goose has to go first, then update dependencies with goose
[16:06] <mgz> I only have some mini points on the openstack provider code
[16:06] <mgz> and yeah, goose needs to happen first
[16:06] <mgz> so the juju change can include the dependency update
[16:09] <hml> mgz: got it - i’m in CA teaching a class for canonical this week.  i have time in the AM to do the code udpates, since I’m still on east coast time.  and some in the evenings as well
[16:10] <mgz> hml: I did have one additional thought which would not make you happy... reading through the provider changes made me less and less happy about the V2 on the end of all the functions, really feels like that should be an aspect of the client interface you get rather than the methods on it
[16:10] <mgz> I don't think it makes sense to change that as part of this branch though
[16:11] <hml> mgz: for neutron that would be okay - however in glance, there are different functions for GetImages within the same package.  one uses compute v1 and one uses the image service v2.  what to do in that case?
[16:12] <mgz> you'd need two glance clients, which would at least be explicit about using multiple versions
[16:13] <hml> mgz: that’s a long term change idea for sure - but like you said, it might not work for this set of pr
[16:13] <mgz> the structs also make sense to have the version emedded rather than being package scoped or similar I think
[16:19] <hml> hml: if that change is necessary can we chat on it later? or in email?  i have to run shortly for my ride
[16:20] <mgz> hml: it's not needed. I'm leaving some general comments in the juju pr, and will approve the goose pr
[16:20] <mgz> feel free to tackle later today, email me if you have any concerns
[16:20] <hml> hml: thank you.
[16:20] <hml> mgz: thank you.
[16:20] <mgz> I'd say no, thank you... but you already did :P
[17:18] <voidspace> rick_h: hmmm... it doesn't look to me like the devel ppa is building 2.1 (our develop branch)
[17:18] <voidspace> rick_h: https://launchpad.net/~juju/+archive/ubuntu/devel
[17:18] <voidspace> rick_h: so I might need to get my change into the 2.0 branch to get it into the ppa
[17:19] <rick_h> I thought we were not doing the ppa voidspace
[17:20] <rick_h> I was just talking about the snap. And the snap is rebuilt once a day
[17:20] <voidspace> ah
[17:20] <voidspace> rick_h: your comment is "We won't have a PPA of this until it lands/hits devel and then we'll have a dev snap available."
[17:20] <voidspace> rick_h: which I interpreted as "it will then be in a ppa"
[17:21] <voidspace> rick_h: but you meant, then there will be a snap
[17:21] <voidspace> rick_h: my mistake
[17:23] <voidspace> rick_h: where are the dev snaps (not on uappexplorer it seems)?
[17:24] <rick_h> No since it's not stable. Grabbing lunch, search the mailing list please
[17:24] <voidspace> rick_h: ok
[17:24] <rick_h> I'll look when I'm back at my computer
[17:24] <voidspace> there is a juju one there though, a 2.0 beta from July
[17:24] <voidspace> rick_h: I'll find it
[17:31] <voidspace> rick_h: snap install juju --edge --devmode
[17:40] <perrito666> could anyone https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6564 ? its a rather long one (sorry, 700 but it was a change in the env interface so it spanned in many files)
[17:41] <perrito666> will run an errand and be back later
[17:41] <perrito666> chers
[17:44] <jcastro> rick_h: is there an easy way to see which version of juju is in which channels of the snap store?
[17:46] <voidspace> jcastro: I couldn't find one
[17:46] <voidspace> it looks like even the --edge channel might be 2.0 :-/
[17:47] <jcastro> yeah I'm on 2.0.1
[17:47] <voidspace> that's an issue for me then :-/
[17:47] <voidspace> I'll create a PR for 2.0 with my fix in
[17:58] <rick_h> voidspace: hmm, balloons is the --edge the daily? or is it a different name? /me doesn't recall
[17:58] <voidspace> rick_h: that command line invocation was the one suggested on the mailing list
[17:58] <rick_h> voidspace: for the daily?
[17:58] <voidspace> rick_h: I have a PR against 2.0, which I'm sending to nate to review
[17:58] <voidspace> rick_h: yes, let me find the mail (from August)
[17:59] <rick_h> voidspace: ah ok coolio then...but booo that it's 2.0 and not 2.1
[17:59] <rick_h> seems like worth a note up to the QA folks because I thought it was pointed at develop, or maybe staging branches now
[18:00] <voidspace> rick_h: I'm shortly going EOD and nate is curerently offline - so I've asked him to land it on 2.0
[18:00] <rick_h> voidspace: rgr
[18:00] <voidspace> rick_h: I'll contact them, staging gets updated sporadically, so develop would be much more useful for us
[18:00] <hoenir> https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6570 any thoughts on this?
[18:00] <rick_h> voidspace: +1
[18:00] <voidspace> rick_h: and "juju status" does show the leader, so I've filed a bug against juju-wait
[18:01] <rick_h> voidspace: awesome, still good to fix the bug but also good to help them use changes that have been made
[18:01] <voidspace> yep
[18:02] <rick_h> perrito666: or redir, either of you up for reviewing/QA'ing hoenir's branch above please?
[18:05] <redir> rick_h: looking
[18:06] <redir> hoenir: PR 6570?
[18:13] <hoenir> redir, yeah
[18:45] <redir> hoenir: looks good with a couple minor nits
[20:49] <babbageclunk> hey veebers - any idea why this build failed? http://juju-ci.vapour.ws/job/github-check-merge-juju/212/
[20:49] <babbageclunk> veebers: I can see that it says trusty failed, but I can't see any reason in trusty.out/err
[20:50] <veebers> babbageclunk: I'll take a look now
[20:50] <babbageclunk> veebers: thanks!
[20:50] <babbageclunk> veebers: searching for "--- FAIL" normally works in that output, but it doesn't find anything for me this time.
[20:52] <babbageclunk> veebers: oh, sorry - found it.
[20:52] <veebers> babbageclunk: ah, was just going to say, look for "panic: close of closed channel" in .out
[20:53] <veebers> err trusty-out.log
[20:53] <babbageclunk> veebers: yup, that's what I found too. Thanks!
[20:55] <veebers> nw
[20:59] <babbageclunk> veebers: huh, annoying. That same test passes for me locally - I guess a race between the test closing the channel and the code doing it?
[21:01] <veebers> babbageclunk: possibly. You could always try a rebuild. If that fails too then there is a proper issue there and not a transient one
[21:02] <babbageclunk> veebers: Might do that anywhere for an extra data point.
[21:02] <babbageclunk> duh anyway
[21:38] <babbageclunk> help! I can't see how this line triggers "close of closed channel" panics! https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6566/files#diff-0b1eab7c51bd2977a8e922580b9cf3bbR154
[21:39] <anastasiamac> babbageclunk: is it consistent or intermittent?
[21:39] <babbageclunk> anastasiamac: I can't get it to fail locally, only in jenkins
[21:39] <babbageclunk> anastasiamac: but it seems consistent there.
[21:40] <anastasiamac> babbageclunk: :(
[21:53] <perrito666> Alexisb i am right to think you are off today?
[21:59] <babbageclunk> perrito666: she's so off she's not even in here.
[22:01] <anastasiamac> perrito666: wait until standup :) she might join then \o/
[22:11] <perrito666> redir: anastasiamac I am in a weird limbo where I dont know which of you is OCR :p so https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/6564 let me give you this link to both
[22:12] <anastasiamac> perrito666: m in wednesday so for me it's reed
[22:12] <anastasiamac> perrito666: but i can peek in about an hr if the timing suits?
[22:14] <perrito666> but I think from reed perspective you are today and he is tomrrow, I hate relativism
[22:17]  * redir hates absolute relativism
[22:17] <redir> funny, it's tuesday here.
[22:17] <redir> :)
[22:17] <anastasiamac> perrito666: i'll look soon :)
[22:27] <perrito666> bbl sport
[22:52] <babbageclunk> anastasiamac: gah, worked it out - someone else (probably axw) had fixed the close channel problem in a better way that merged cleanly with mine - so it had both closes.
[23:07] <anastasiamac> babbageclunk: ur patience and perseverance is inspiring \o/ tyvm :D
[23:19] <babbageclunk> anastasiamac: :) Would be better if I could just work these problems out quicker - then I wouldn't have to be so patient!


[10:49] <LeeColleton> cr4z3d: it turns off the kernel's Advanced Configuration & Power Interface
[10:49] <cr4z3d> how do you turn it back on once booted
[10:49] <mete> no, not yet
[10:49] <cr4z3d> cuz i only need it off when booting
[10:49] <mete> I have an icon for it, but it cannot detect the device
[10:49] <LeeColleton> has to do with battery, cpu temperature and power usage
[10:49] <racingcamel> ok
[10:49] <Loiosh> It does not disable the slot, FYI.
[10:49] <cr4z3d> good
[10:49] <Slackman> guys, having trouble with my laptop sleeping . I have 2.6.10-4-powerpc but occasionally it still doesn't wake up
[10:49] <cr4z3d> does it stay off just during boot?
[10:49] <bronson> Wow.  Make sure nobody's using openoffice.org-gnomevfs.  It's buggy, and just ruined about 4 hours of work.  :(
[10:50] <djmt> exit
[10:50] <Slackman> bronson: you don't have autosave on/
[10:50] <mete> so is there anyone, who could successfully install libgtk2.0-dev?
[10:50] <bronson> Time to reboot...
[10:50] <bronson> I did!
[10:50] <racingcamel> can i download the hoary release anywhere. maybe it will be fixed there?
[10:50] <bronson> It didn't, because gnomevfs was messed up.
[10:50] <Slackman> bronson: grab the ~file then
[10:50] <bronson> Slackman: there is no file.
[10:50] <Loiosh> Was wondering that myself, Bronson =)
[10:50] <bronson> The directory was I was working in is totally empty.
[10:50] <LeeColleton> mete, it's in my sources list if you want that
[10:50] <bronson> Trust me: it's bad, bad juju.
[10:51] <mete> LeeColleton, yes please:)
[10:51] <bronson> Apparently OO.o thoought it was saving the whole time, but some VFS incompatibility prevented that from ever happening.
[10:51] <mete> I'd like to compile wxWidgets2.5.3 with gtk2
[10:51] <bronson> Then, when I tried to actually save, it hungh.
[10:51] <Drel> bronson: Sure you have write access to that directory?
[10:51] <bronson> *hung.
[10:51] <bronson> Of course.
[10:52] <Yomic> How can I setup a DSL USB device?
[10:53] <racingcamel> what are some good linux cpp compilers?
[10:53] <Yomic> It is the Netopia 802.11b WLAN UBS ADAPTER
[10:54] <ompaul> racingcamel, g++ ?
[10:54] <ompaul> racingcamel, and the other one g++ :)
[10:54] <cr4z3d> um.. i have a question what's ubuntu's default root password? i don't remember entering one
[10:54] <Yomic> There isn't one
[10:54] <ompaul> cr4z3d, it is yours - it does not have one :)
[10:55] <cr4z3d> you sure?
[10:55] <hawke_> cr4z3d: There isn't one, sudo is the only way to becomre root
[10:55] <cr4z3d> cuz i tried mine
[10:55] <cr4z3d> oh
[10:55] <ompaul> cr4z3d, yes
[10:55] <Yomic> just use 'sudo' for root commands
[10:55] <hawke_> cr4z3d: you can enable the root account if you really want to, but sudo is generally considered more secure.
[10:55] <Loiosh> I couldn't get Knoppix or U to pick up on my wireless USB card, Yomic
[10:56] <Loiosh> I don't know if there are drivers for it yet.
[10:56] <LordofKhemenu> hawke: i remember setting a root password during install of hoary
[10:56] <cr4z3d> uhhh
[10:56] <cr4z3d> it still asked for password
[10:56] <cr4z3d> with sudo
[10:56] <hawke_> If only Gnome/Ubuntu's user manager had an option to choose whether a user had admin. access.
[10:56] <HrdwrBoB> Loiosh: you may need ndiswrapper drivers
[10:56] <HrdwrBoB> cr4z3d: yes, your password.
[10:56] <cr4z3d> nm i got it
[10:56] <cr4z3d> yeah
[10:56] <hawke_> a la Macintosh
[10:56] <Yomic> So, anyone know how t setup the Netopia 802.11b WLAN USB Adapter (DSL)?
[10:56] <LordofKhemenu> you can set up the sudoers file so you don't have to enter a password
[10:56] <LeeColleton> LordofKhemenu: normally the root account is disabled, the password you were asked for was that of the first user
[10:57] <hawke_> LordofKhemenu: but you shouldn't. ;-)
[10:57] <LordofKhemenu> hehe
[10:57] <sri> has anybody had problems with gnome-cd erroring outdue to permissions on the cdrom device?
[10:57] <LordofKhemenu> maybe it was the user password..i was at that stage about 2 am, so who knows..
[10:57] <Coily> ive been having problems with my router killing my connection every so often, is there a simple way to keep track of my connection uptime
[10:57] <cr4z3d> ok now how do i edit the grub loader
[10:57] <LeeColleton> the first user is automatically entered in /etc/sudoers as "username      ALL=(ALL) ALL"
[10:57] <sri> even though my /dev/hdc is set to rw-rw-rw I get drive error
[10:58] <sri> and worse, I can't eject either unless i do sudo eject
[10:58] <sri> running 2.6.10-3
[10:58] <Coily> besides continuously pinging my router =[
[10:58] <sri> any ideas?
[10:58] <Loiosh> Well, the .conf file is /etc/grub.conf
[10:58] <sri> is 2.6.10-4 stable?
[10:58] <hawke_> Loiosh: No it's not.
[10:58] <Loiosh> But, changing the startup line is.. that I don't know.
[10:58] <bluefoxicy> Any window-in-window xdmcp clients
[10:58] <hawke_> Loiosh: It's /boot/grub/menu.lst
[10:59] <Loiosh> Oh, hehe!
[10:59] <bluefoxicy> er
[10:59] <bluefoxicy> I want to run X
[10:59] <bluefoxicy> and run an xdmcp client inside
[10:59] <bluefoxicy> like an xnest GDM chooser
[10:59] <hawke_> Loiosh: Gento has a symlink for that
[10:59] <Loiosh> Wow, look at that
[10:59] <Loiosh> I wonder if rh does too
[10:59] <hawke_> Loiosh: Could be.
[10:59] <LeeColleton> so I've got an odd screenshot:  I was watching a fullscreen video with mplayer 1.0pre6-3.3.4 (compiled from source) and I switched to another desktop to open the astronomy picture of the day in firefox.  This was the result http://www.speakeasy.org/~lcolleton/mplayer-firefox-interference.png
[10:59] <Loiosh> Yup, it is
[11:00] <Loiosh> Is there any reason that is done? Other than making things easier?
[11:00] <hawke_> Loiosh: The symlink is there just to make it easier.
[11:00] <Loiosh> Ok, hehe
[11:00] <HrdwrBoB> LeeColleton: that's highly likely to be your video card driver
[11:00] <hawke_> Loiosh: The /boot/grub/menu.lst is there for cases of a separate /boot partition
[11:01] <JimBunderfeld> I need help I installed my nVidia card drivers but my LCD monitor is soppouse to be 1280x1024 and Ubuntu wont let me go over 1024x780
[11:01] <EndGame> my wireless usb adaptor wasnt detected by setup, will i get a chance to compile it into the kernel?
[11:01] <hawke_> Loiosh: Not necessarily.  It's there regardless, but it's there just in case it's a separate partition.
[11:01] <LeeColleton> HrdwrBoB: it's never done that before.  I recently changed some keybindings but I didn't hit any of those keys.. I don't think..
[11:01] <Loiosh> Well, it's how -I- am setup =)
[11:02] <Madeye> guys my print screen button is not working, and its enabled on keyboard shortcuts, any idea?
[11:02] <HrdwrBoB> LeeColleton: strange
[11:02] <cr4z3d> ok so acpi like makes the fan work right? cuz it seems like my cpu is heating up a lot and i have acpi=off for the boot thing.. does it turn back on once finished booting?
[11:02] <bwlang> i'm considering whether or not to attempt a "crossgrade" from debian (sarge) to ubuntu... any opinions on whether this is a good idea or not?
[11:02] <hawke_> Loiosh: Hehe, and it's pretty common.
[11:02] <LeeColleton> JimBunderfeld: you need to put some lines into /etc/X11/xorg.conf for vertical and horizontal sync
[11:02] <hawke_> bwlang: I've had mixed success
[11:02] <JimBunderfeld> ok..
[11:02] <LeeColleton> what kind of video card do you have?
[11:02] <JimBunderfeld> what i put in lee
[11:02] <EndGame> Madeye, i though the printsceen button was a myth, a apendex, tonsels, i didnt know anyone really used it
[11:02] <hawke_> bwlang: It seems to work OK.
[11:03] <bwlang> hawke_ : any data loss? i'm willing to deal with some manual dpkging
[11:03] <Coily> is there a simple tool to keep track of my 1)connection to my router 2) connection to internet. my router has been going out recently and i need to keep track of when and for how long etc
[11:03] <EndGame> Coily, ifconfig
[11:03] <EndGame> er
[11:03] <EndGame> wait
[11:03] <EndGame> noppe, that wouldnt do it
[11:03] <Coily> ?
[11:03] <Coily> =[
[11:03] <Axiont> Coily: try iptraf
[11:03] <hawke_> bwlang: Shouldn't be any data loss, no.  I've found user config files to be a bit .. confused occasionally.
[11:03] <Madeye> EndGame, hey you gameOver, dont wate your time in making fun
[11:03] <Coily> well it needs to be something that can run when im away from my computer
[11:04] <Loiosh> I was told it was just sound design
[11:04] <hawke_> bwlang: e.g. extraneous stuff showing up in applications menu, that kinda thing.
[11:04] <LeeColleton> JimBunderfeld: I have "HorizSync       28-49" and "VertRefresh     43-72"
[11:04] <Faustus> hi
[11:04] <Coily> and can point out when my connection went down
[11:04] <EndGame> what'd i do?
[11:04] <bwlang> hawke_: so if i go with a fresh home dir i should be good...
[11:04] <Loiosh> So I did that and /var and / and a few others
[11:04] <LeeColleton> but I've got a 1024x768 display
[11:04] <caseymorring> hey im a total noob...i was wondering if there is a C++ compiler in ubuntu
[11:04] <hawke_> Coily: Another thing to try would be mrtg..
[11:04] <EndGame> the printscreen crack
[11:04] <Loiosh> I believe gcc is that, casey?
[11:04] <hawke_> bwlang: Yeah.
[11:04] <EndGame> im sorry if i offended you
[11:04] <EndGame> :-)
[11:04] <LeeColleton> that goes in the section "Monitor"
[11:04] <hawke_> caseymorring: Yes.
[11:04] <Coily> looking into it
[11:04] <hawke_> caseymorring: g++
[11:05] <caseymorring> how do you get to the compiler?
[11:05] <hawke_> Coily: It's a bit intimidating to set up, but it's easier than it seems at first.
[11:05] <hawke_> caseymorring: command line, 'g++'
[11:05] <Coily> alrighty
[11:05] <LeeColleton> caseymorring: you need to run "apt-get install build-essential"
[11:05] <Loiosh> The compiler you can run at any time with a command. If you're looking for a development enviroment.. then you'll looking for something a little different.
[11:06] <LeeColleton> caseymorring: I mean "sudo apt-get install build-essential"
[11:06] <s1x> lo all
[11:06] <knoppix> lo
[11:07] <EndGame> to answer your question, Madeye, are you sure you're using the right keymap
[11:07] <airox> hi
[11:07] <Madeye> EndGame, well I need to enable it to be able to get some screen shorts while browsing some WEB menus
[11:07] <s1x> anyone knows why ubuntu started ignoring my printer? there is a /dev/usb/lp0 but when i try to add it it says it's not connected
[11:07] <knoppix> hey guys, how do i burn an iso to a cd
[11:07] <LeeColleton> s1x: because it's unplugged?
[11:07] <hawke_> s1x: does unplugging it and re-plugging it help?
[11:07] <s1x> and it's present in device manager, and yes I have installed it before (on this installation)
[11:07] <s1x> LeeColleton: how come devicemanagerfinds it?
[11:08] <hawke_> knoppix: With a CD burner app
[11:08] <Madeye> EndGame,  keymap, a new concept to me, mind waste few minutes in shooting my trouble ?
[11:08] <s1x> hawke: no, nor restarting cupsys
[11:08] <knoppix> from the command line?
[11:08] <Loiosh> Shooting my trouble, LoL
[11:08] <airox> When I installed ubuntu, I can't login on gdm with my user account.
[11:08] <EndGame> you keymap is how linux interprets the keys you press
[11:08] <airox> What could be the problem ?
[11:08] <Loiosh> I like that.
[11:08] <LeeColleton> airox: CapsLock?
[11:08] <Madeye> EndGame,  How to check if I'm using the proper keymap?
[11:09] <EndGame> im assuming the problem arrises when you're running X
[11:09] <hawke_> s1x: does 'dmesg' say anything (at the end) about finding a printer?
[11:09] <EndGame> um
[11:09] <EndGame> hold on
[11:09] <EndGame> ill check
[11:09] <airox> LeeColleton: Nope.
[11:09] <s1x> hawke_: usb 2-1: new full speed USB device using address 2
[11:09] <s1x> drivers/usb/class/usblp.c: usblp0: USB Bidirectional printer dev 2 if 1 alt 0 proto 2 vid 0x03F0 pid 0x3F11
[11:09] <LeeColleton> airox: you're suddenly not able to log in?
[11:09] <airox> LeeColleton: After installation that is.
[11:09] <LeeColleton> s1x: try removing the printer spool and adding it again
[11:10] <hawke_> Madeye: 'setxkbmap -print'
[11:10] <s1x> LeeColleton: what is that?
[11:10] <EndGame> and hawke makes the catch out in left field
[11:10] <EndGame> good one
[11:10] <EndGame> :-)
[11:10] <LeeColleton> under Administration > Printing
[11:10] <LeeColleton> the gnome print manager
[11:10] <Madeye> hawke,  can I paste the result here?
[11:10] <hawke_> EndGame: I only remembered because I was working with it just now, to turn on the compose:ralt option
[11:10] <s1x> LeeColleton: there's no printer there, and it doesn't find any
[11:10] <hawke_> Madeye: Maybe better in a /msg
[11:10] <hawke_> Madeye: To Endgame and myself.
[11:11] <mete> hm, does anyone know where to get libgtkgl2.0-dev
[11:11] <Madeye> ok, done
[11:11] <LeeColleton> ah, I misunderstood.  I thought you meant it suddenly started ignoring your printer.  You've never printed from this one?
[11:12] <StoffBox-Steve> args help someone have a nice and usefull link for a Kernel 2.6. config howto ?  google drive me crazy :S
[11:12] <bob2> mete: the gtk gl stuff isn't in that package
[11:12] <s1x> i'm trying now a desperate "sudo apt-get remove foomatic-db libijs-0.35 libijs-dev cupsys
[11:12] <airox> LeeColleton: Could I log in with recovery mode and add another user with `adduser` to login into gdm ?
[11:12] <Faustus> anyone havving problems printing jpegs from gimp?
[11:12] <Loiosh> strange ctcp command there.
[11:12] <airox> Over here to.
[11:12] <hawke_> Loiosh: Aye.
[11:12] <Loiosh> face get?
[11:13] <Loiosh> LoL
[11:13] <airox> hehe
[11:13] <Faustus> or anything,  tried png and nothing.  IT prinnts from other apps.
[11:13] <LeeColleton> airox: yes, gdm registers the same users that the console login prompt does
[11:13] <robodex> Hey, anyone know of any howtos on installing kqemu? I'm a total noob and I can't get it set up for the life of me...
[11:13] <airox> LeeColleton: good.
[11:13] <bob2> rgtgr: please go away
[11:13] <Loiosh> Oh
[11:13] <Loiosh> OsX, heh
[11:13] <airox> Then I will try it.
[11:13] <kent> rgtgr, ctcp on you to
[11:13] <LeeColleton> just remember, you won't be in the sudoers group by default
[11:13] <airox> hmm
[11:13] <Loiosh> I guess the program is looking for icons of some kind?
[11:13] <airox> that's something i can fix
[11:13] <airox> no problem
[11:13] <caseymorring> ok ...again...im a total noob...i did apt-get install build-essential...now how do i open it?
[11:13] <rgtgr> sorry
[11:13] <bob2> robodex: you'll need to follow the instructions on the qemu website, and compile it yourself
[11:13] <airox> thanks LeeColleton !
[11:13] <bob2> since no one can actually distribute it
[11:14] <LeeColleton> airox: you could also run passwd on your existing user account as root
[11:14] <airox> ok
[11:14] <airox> i get the point :)
[11:14] <robodex> bob2: I did that, though, but the module doesn't install... according to the instructions I just need it in the qemu source directory and it'll install, but it doesn't
[11:14] <Coily> hawke_, oh my mrtg has me frightened
[11:14] <hawke_> Coily: Hehe...
[11:15] <bob2> robodex: you need to do more than that
[11:15] <bob2> but Id be really wary of loading random binary stuff into your kernel
[11:15] <EndGame> i need to tweak my kernel, but the sources are not in /usr/src/
[11:15] <EndGame> where does ubuntu keep the kernel sources?
[11:15] <robodex> bob2: I just want the accelerator installed
[11:16] <mete> caseymorring: what do you want to open? now you have gcc, etc.
[11:16] <cr4z3d> what's irq 11: nobody cared!
[11:16] <cr4z3d> handlers:
[11:16] <cr4z3d> blah blah
[11:16] <cr4z3d> disabling IRQ #11
[11:16] <caseymorring> im trying to start learning C++, trying to write my first program
[11:16] <cr4z3d> eht0: device soft reset time out
[11:16] <httpdss> im having problems running gksudo apps from the last update i did .. any idea ??
[11:17] <caseymorring> i need a compiler to write in, i think
[11:17] <bwlang> caseymorring: i recommend another language...
[11:17] <Loiosh> You're looking for an 'IDE' Casey
[11:17] <Loiosh> Interactive Development Enviroment.
[11:17] <caseymorring> how do i find that?
[11:17] <Loiosh> Writing C++ in vi is.. painful.
[11:17] <httpdss> casey: eclipse
[11:17] <Loiosh> Eclipse is a very very big ide =)
[11:18] <caseymorring> do i apt-get eclipse?
[11:18] <bob2> robodex: maybe the instrucions are wrong then, try emailing the qemu list
[11:18] <Faustus> solved it.  I had to reselt the model from the print dialog even though it was already selected.  Funny
[11:19] <httpdss> mm nope .. http://www.ubuntuguide.org
[11:19] <Loiosh> I couldn't tell ya, Casey =(
[11:19] <Welly> hey all.. is there ANY possible way I can install ubuntu from a hard drive rather than an optical drive?
[11:19] <httpdss> casey: that link was for you
[11:19] <caseymorring> k thanks
[11:20] <cr4z3d> message from syslogd@localhost at mon blah nlha ... local host kernel: disabling irq # 11
[11:20] <cr4z3d> what's that mean?
[11:20] <httpdss> casey: wrong link:P    http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/EclipseIDE
[11:21] <Loiosh> I was wondering, LoL
[11:21] <EndGame> um
[11:21] <s1x> when I try to install a driver there is nothing on the driver list and this error message appears: ** (gnome-cups-add:9282): WARNING **: Unable to load the set of known printers.  Please check your installation of cups
[11:21] <EndGame> the setup never asked me to set a root password
[11:21] <EndGame> just make a user
[11:21] <caseymorring> what link is mine?
[11:21] <EndGame> and now i cant get into root
[11:21] <HrdwrBoB> EndGame: correct
[11:21] <EndGame> wtf
[11:21] <thoreauputic> EndGame: sudo -s
[11:21] <Welly> anyone?
[11:21] <HrdwrBoB> EndGame: run commands as root usind 'sudo'
[11:21] <httpdss> casey: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/EclipseIDE
[11:21] <HrdwrBoB> put in your password
[11:21] <hawke_> EndGame: you can only get into root via sudo from that user that you set up
[11:21] <caseymorring> k got it
[11:21] <EndGame> wow
[11:22] <EndGame> thats special
[11:22] <s1x> any aideas on why my printers database is empty?
[11:22] <Loiosh> It's part of the design =)
[11:22] <httpdss> casey: after you install that .. get the CDT plugin
[11:22] <Welly> :(
[11:23] <caseymorring> ok
[11:23] <thoreauputic> Welly: I'm sure there's a way
[11:23] <EndGame> next question
[11:23] <EndGame> i need to recompile my kernel
[11:23] <Welly> if there is i can't find one..
[11:23] <thoreauputic> Welly: I just don't know...
[11:24] <Welly> heh heh.. yeah, likewise
[11:24] <bob2> EndGame: why?
[11:24] <EndGame> because the install didnt detect my wireless card
[11:24] <thoreauputic> mounting the iso with the loop option I think...
[11:24] <bob2> EndGame: that doesn't require a recompile
[11:24] <bob2> EndGame: what sort of card is it?
[11:24] <Welly> i've burnt about 4 copies of the ISO on different cd writers and i'm continually getting errors and can't install :(
[11:25] <EndGame> usb dlink
[11:25] <s1x> running gnome-cups-manager says it can't comunicate with cups. Any ideas why?
[11:25] <EndGame> how can i get it working?
[11:25] <Welly> i can't boot off my external usb cd rom drive so i'm going to have to install from the hard drive somehow
[11:25] <thoreauputic> Welly: what burning program ?
[11:25] <Welly> been using nero
[11:26] <thoreauputic> Welly: burn as image
[11:26] <Welly> yep, thats that i've done
[11:26] <thoreauputic> Welly: you sure you chose the right option?
[11:26] <Welly> i think so.. i'm not sure what other options there are
[11:27] <s1x> humpf.... pls someone help me :( my printer just "disappeared". It's a printer-scanner and the scanner is working like a charm. so it's not a usb problem. It might be a cups problem. Any ideas on how to try and find what's wrong?
[11:27] <thoreauputic> Welly: I don't know nero, but I know burning coasters instead of ISOs is *really* easy on windows ;-)
[11:28] <bob2> EndGame: which driver does it use?
[11:28] <EndGame> i dont know
[11:28] <mete> bye
[11:28] <EndGame> its not mine
[11:28] <knoppix> hey guys, which cd iso should i use
[11:28] <knoppix> for unbuntu
[11:28] <Loiosh> Someone suggested something earlier to me...
[11:28] <Loiosh> some kind of wrapper
[11:29] <knoppix> should i use a warty
[11:29] <knoppix> ?
[11:29] <bob2> knoppix: yes
[11:29] <thoreauputic> knoppix: if you need to ask , then probably yes :)
[11:29] <jk> if you like the stable release, yes, warty
[11:29] <cr4z3d> how come my netgear wg511 card worked during installation but not anymore?
 Loiosh: you may need ndiswrapper drivers
[11:29] <Loiosh> There we are
[11:29] <jk> cr4z3d: works fine here
[11:30] <cr4z3d> how'd you get it to work?
[11:30] <jk> well, wg511t that is
[11:30] <Loiosh> I have no idea if that'll help you, End =)
[11:30] <jk> cr4z3d: just worked; modules are loaded, and i have a little script to configure the wep key and dhclient
[11:30] <jk> cr4z3d: if you don't use WEP, try dhclient ath0
[11:31] <HrdwrBoB> ndiswrapper aloows you to use windows drivers for your network cards
[11:31] <cr4z3d> hmm can you explain me that stuff later i must be off for now i'll be back like 20 minutes
[11:31] <cr4z3d> i don't use wep
[11:31] <jk> cr4z3d: well, it's 23:31 here by now, so i'll prolly be in bed by then
[11:31] <Loiosh> Oh well
[11:31] <cr4z3d> damn
[11:31] <cr4z3d> can you just pm me the steps?
[11:31] <jk> sure
[11:31] <knoppix> if i have warty, can i update it to all the new items in horay?
[11:32] <knoppix> or at least update it to the newest security versions
[11:32] <jk> knoppix: both is possible
[11:32] <jk> of course
[11:32] <knoppix> goood
[11:34] <thoreauputic> knoppix: read the FAQ (URL is in the channel topic)
[11:36] <thoreauputic> knoppix: lots of good info in all those URLs in fact
[11:36] <Ubuntian> just tried to mount an ext3fs partition that i use in another disto (mandrake) but shell says: ext3fs not supported with kernel (?)
[11:37] <ompaul> thoreauputic, that could be classified as useful information, being passed on in a reasonable way, your ubuntu is nearly back on an even keel :)
[11:37] <Loiosh> The wiki's very nice as well
[11:37] <thoreauputic> ompaul: hehe.. I guess I got some sleep ;)
[11:38] <racingcamel> im am trying to install vlc but I need to edit the /etc/apt/sources.list file which is root. How do I edit this file?
[11:38] <cr4z3d> hmm.. i think i need acpi enabled.. cuz my laptop seems to over heat and shut itself off after being on for about 10 minutes with ubuntu
[11:38] <Amaranth> racingcamel: sudo
[11:38] <Loiosh> Yeah, disabling ACPI will disable the heat management features
[11:39] <thoreauputic> racingcamel: sudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
[11:39] <cr4z3d> how do i turn it on without fucking up the boot?
[11:39] <Loiosh> That I do not know =( You could try ACPI off with APM on
[11:39] <lavigj> hey guys, is there a good guide or method for telling just one package to pull from hoary?
[11:39] <Loiosh> I don't know if that'll help though
[11:40] <cr4z3d> apm on
[11:40] <cr4z3d> hmm
[11:40] <cr4z3d> would that be apm=on
[11:40] <cr4z3d> for the boot loader?
[11:40] <Odin2347> hi
[11:40] <HrdwrBoB> acpi=off
[11:40] <Odin2347> which version of ubuntu would you guys recommend i install?
[11:40] <HrdwrBoB> or noacpi I think
[11:40] <Odin2347> do any of them come with madwifi?
[11:41] <thoreauputic> cr4z3d: to load apm you can just put  the letters  apm in /etc/modules
[11:41] <apokryphos> Odin2347: hoary
[11:41] <cr4z3d> i did that
[11:41] <cr4z3d> but it still over heated and shut down
[11:41] <HrdwrBoB> thoreauputic: it won't work if acpi is in use
[11:41] <Ubuntian> lavigj did u look at http://ubuntuguide.org/
[11:41] <thoreauputic> HrdwrBoB: OK
[11:41] <OrangeSlice> my /dev/sde2 seems to have... vanished
[11:41] <Loiosh> He has ACPI disabled, B =)
[11:41] <cr4z3d> and acpi=off on boot
[11:41] <Odin2347> hoary comes with madwifi>?
[11:41] <lavigj> Ubuntian: is there one on there? I do not want to switch everything to hoary
[11:41] <Loiosh> It was causing him crasher earlier this morning, hehe
[11:42] <cr4z3d> yes haha
[11:42] <apokryphos> Odin2347: I have no idea what that is
[11:42] <Ubuntian> have a look u might find it, the guide isn't big
[11:43] <Odin2347> argh
[11:43] <Odin2347> they're new wifi drivers for atheros cards
[11:43] <lavigj> Ubuntian: I have used that site a lot. I will look again though
[11:43] <Odin2347> someone told me the other day it came with it...
[11:43] <Odin2347> i need them for my wireless card to work right
[11:43] <StoffBox-Steve> args, this day sucks ..... *grrrrrrrrrR*
[11:43] <apokryphos> Odin2347: It probably does then; I don't know.
[11:43] <lavigj> Ubuntian: all I see there is a system wide upgrade to hoary
[11:44] <lavigj> that's *not* what I am after... I just need a newer version of libsdl
[11:47] <lavigj> I have tried an apt-get -s source --compile libsd1.2debian-oss but I don't know what version that's going to be
[11:48] <lavigj> is there a way to check what source will be pulled for that?
[11:48] <mdke> is it not possible to edit menus in hoary at the moment? I want to add nvu as per the guide on ubuntuguide.org
[11:50] <hawke_> mdke: I believe it is not.
[11:50] <ernstp> hello. any ubuntu devs here?
[11:50] <hawke_> mdke: And that that is a known problem.
[11:50] <waseem> hi how do i change my root password
[11:50] <ernstp> just found a min bug in the update-manager
[11:50] <lavigj> anyone? :)
[11:50] <ernstp> waseem, sudo passwd
[11:50] <mdke> hawke, i'm sure if it wasn't possible it would be known :)
[11:50] <mdke> maybe its intentional
[11:50] <lavigj> waseem: why do you need to?
[11:50] <Odin2347> is hoary the latest release of ubuntu?
[11:51] <styx2005_> my wireless connection get lost after about 5 minutes. then i have to restart my machine. i use hoary. has anybody the same problem?
[11:51] <mdke> Odin2347, warty is the latest release
[11:51] <ernstp> Odin2347, hoary is not released yet
[11:51] <Odin2347> hmm
[11:51] <hawke_> mdke: well, I meant "known to be a problem" ... not known to be not-a-problem. :-p
[11:51] <Odin2347> then why did someone tell me to install hoary...
[11:51] <Odin2347> oh well
[11:52] <Odin2347> is there a KDE version??
[11:52] <Odin2347> im not too fond of Gnome
[11:52] <mdke> Odin2347, kde as with other software can be installed
[11:52] <Sander__> try #kubuntu
[11:52] <thoreauputic> Odin2347: hoary is the development version
[11:52] <mdke> hawke, looks like nvu isn't working anyhow
[11:52] <mdke> :p
[11:53] <racingcame1> how do i install .jar files?
[11:53] <bascule> java -jar foo.jar
[11:53] <Odin2347> can i download hoary?
[11:53] <Odin2347> or only warty?
[11:53] <mdke> Odin2347, you can download both
[11:53] <ompaul> Odin2347, both
[11:53] <mdke> Odin2347, but you should use warty for now
[11:53] <ompaul> Odin2347, and both as live CDs
[11:53] <Odin2347> are there stability issues?
[11:54] <thoreauputic> hehe
[11:54] <Odin2347> or any problems
[11:54] <Loiosh> They're fluffy, Odin =)
[11:54] <mdke> Odin2347, yes
[11:54] <mairu> odin2347, hoary comes from hairy
[11:54] <robodex> when will shipit be open for hoary CDs?
[11:54] <Odin2347> hehe
[11:54] <Loiosh> =)~
[11:54] <meuserj|work> Odin2347, IMHO, if you dislike GNOME, Ubuntu isn't for you... there is support for KDE in hoary, but most development focuses on GNOME.
[11:54] <Odin2347> yea buit..
[11:54] <Odin2347> ubuntu is the only distro that actually recongnized my soundcard/wireless card
[11:54] <Loiosh> If you want to use it though, you can. It'll just take a bit more work =)
[11:55] <thoreauputic> Odin2347: if Hoary breaks "you get to keep *both* pieces" ;-)
[11:55] <lavigj> anyone in here familiar with apt::Default-release?
[11:55] <Odin2347> lol
[11:55] <jesus_> what ftp server should i use?
[11:55] <Loiosh> There's nothing wrong with wanting to use it.
[11:55] <ompaul> jesus_, the nearest one to you
[11:55] <scoon> Odin2347, what kind of cards do you have.
[11:55] <mdke> jesus_, what do you mean?
[11:55] <scoon> Odin2347, the recog'd of them is thru the linux kernel
[11:56] <ompaul> I must be tired I did not get the meaning that mdke did
[11:57] <mdke> ompaul, it is open to either
[11:57] <jesus_> well, i'm somewhat used to proftpd, but i see that there are 2 or 3 ftpservers supported by ubuntu
[11:57] <mdke> jesus_, ah.
[11:57] <AngryClip> does anyone know how I change which sound card ESD uses?
[11:57] <mdke> jesus_, i use proftpd
[11:57] <ompaul> mdke, well now there is a definition
[11:57] <mdke> lol
[11:57] <bluefoxicy> Hi
[11:57] <mdke> yep
[11:57] <bluefoxicy> I need a nested X display with GDM chooser in it
[11:57] <hawke_> mairu: I don't think hoary really does come from hairy...
[11:57] <bluefoxicy> "New Login" goes to another terminal and doesn't seem to offer the chooser
[11:57] <thoreauputic> bluefoxicy: it's installed by default
[11:58] <bluefoxicy> there's "new login in a nested window" on gentoo though
[11:58] <thoreauputic> bluefoxicy: on ubuntu as well
[11:58] <Odin2347> scoon i have a sounblaster live 24bit and a dlink g520 atheros chipset
[11:58] <bluefoxicy> thoreauputic:  what's the command?
[11:58] <bluefoxicy> thoreauputic:  not on ubuntu
[11:58] <mairu> hawke_: just having some fun :)
[11:58] <thoreauputic> bluefoxicy: I have it right here in my menu
[11:58] <racingcame1> where can i find information on installing .bin files for system wide use
[11:58] <bluefoxicy> thoreauputic: apps->system tools->{network tools,new login,root terminal} here
[11:58] <AngryClip> Odin2347: I have that soundcard
[11:58] <meuserj|work> bluefoxicy, I agree..   I don't like kde and that is why i use ubuntu


[09:49] <ochosi> knome: i'll spare the ml the +1s for the new members
[09:59] <slickymaster> morning all
[10:04] <ochosi> morning
[10:06] <slickymaster> hi ochosi. what's the situation with http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs? is there anything else that needs to be done?
[10:07] <ochosi> sry, i was travelling/afk until today, so i haven't really had time to look at it
[10:07] <slickymaster> ok
[10:07] <ochosi> i've forwarded it to eric and nick, received some feedback from eric
[10:07] <ochosi> will try to go through that today
[10:08] <slickymaster> that sounds like a plan
[10:09] <knome> ochosi, yes please ;)
[10:10] <slickymaster> hi, knome
[10:10] <knome> ochosi, the emails said "if there are no objections", not "if everybody agrees" anyway ;)
[10:10] <knome> hey slickymaster
[10:10] <ochosi> knome: i know, that's why i never planned to reply, but since ppl started i thought i'd chip my +1 in here
[10:10]  * knome shrugs
[10:11] <knome> nice for the proposed members though ;)
[10:12] <Unit193> knome: That's how I read it.
[10:12] <knome> slickymaster, i suspect you've read the mailing list?
[10:13] <slickymaster> knome: no, not yet knome. my 2014 start has been kind of bumpy
[10:13] <knome> slickymaster, okay.
[10:13] <knome> slickymaster, just so that you know, i've proposed you as a new ~xubuntu-team member.
[10:13] <knome> slickymaster, and you'll be one in a few days...
[10:14] <knome> ochosi, hacking session with xubuntu-related things some time next week on weekend?
[10:14] <slickymaster> knome: thanks.
[10:14] <knome> ochosi, or at least a check-in where we are and what we need
[10:14] <knome> no problem :)
[10:14] <ochosi> knome: yeah, we should throw together a wiki page or something
[10:14] <ochosi> bbiab
[10:15] <knome> well we should just track the blueprints better ;)
[10:15] <knome> or, make them track the real situation
[10:15] <knome> and fill in with work items
[10:15] <knome> but if you fancy working with the wiki instead... sure
[10:34] <knome> bbiab
[10:38] <ochosi> knome: i mostly want something that eats less of my time than launchpad (given my slow connection, it's really sluggish)
[10:43] <Unit193> QA is using Trello.
[10:48] <ochosi> yeah, that might be an alternative
[10:52] <knome> trello might not be the ideal alt for having to create new accounts and stuff
[10:52] <knome> but we could work on it on a pad or so
[10:53] <knome> ultimately the goal means more than the method ;)
[11:19] <ochosi> slickymaster: http://dpaste.com/1534821/
[11:19] <ochosi> (feedback from eric)
[11:20] <ochosi> slickymaster: sorry, copy-paste fail, full feedback here: http://dpaste.com/1534821/
[11:22] <slickymaster> ochosi: saw it, we'll have to discuss this with jjfrv8 to address eric's comments
[11:23] <slickymaster> ochosi: besides the multiple monitor issue, which I'm not able to deal with, I will address his points concerning the Usage page
[11:23] <ochosi> thanks a lot!
[11:24] <ochosi> yeah, i think we can resolve these things together
[11:24] <ochosi> i'll try to help where i can
[11:24] <ochosi> (also do the multi-monitor screenshots if needed)
[11:27] <slickymaster> jjfrv8: ^^^
[11:47] <jjfrv8> slickymaster, aye
[11:48] <jjfrv8> ochosi, I've already got several mulit-monitor screenshots up there but I put in on hold when I found out from Eric that the infobar was missing in our version.
[11:49] <jjfrv8> ochosi, I haven't added the screenshots to the docs, but they're in Media Manager ready to go.
[11:51] <jjfrv8> I'm not really here yet :)  bbl
[11:53] <brainwash> ochosi: are you ignoring bug 1264563 ? :P
[11:56] <brainwash> setting the lock hint on a normal switch-to-greeter action would be somewhat bad I think, because the greeter would blank the screen
[13:10] <ochosi> brainwash: i actually expected cavalier to do a MR for the patch, the rest is up to robert_ancell as that's in lightdm
[13:10] <ochosi> or you can also do a MR if you want
[13:12] <ochosi> i introduced the lock_hint changes due to a bug in lightdm (which was later resolved), i don't really see the downside to using that though if lightdm handles the lock_hint correctly
[13:13] <elfy> knome> but if you fancy working with the wiki instead... sure ... ochosi> knome: i mostly want something that eats less of my time than launchpad (given my slow connection, it's really sluggish)
[13:13] <elfy> that'll not be the wiki then :p
[13:13] <ochosi> well, at least not the ubuntu wiki :)
[13:13] <elfy> :)
[13:14] <elfy> if it's xubuntu then it shouldn't be some private thing should it ;)
[13:15] <ochosi> well, not ubuntu-wiki doesn't mean private
[13:16] <ochosi> also, the results of the sprint will be fed into the blueprints anyway
[13:16] <elfy> private probably isn't what I should have said
[13:16] <ochosi> it's just about the tool for the process
[13:16] <elfy> anyway - not really all that bothered tbh
[13:16] <ochosi> (and i also don't use online public editors to write patches ;))
[13:17] <elfy> I'll not be doing anything with it for obvious reasons
[13:17] <elfy> so I'll just wait and see if something turns up in something I read
[13:18] <ochosi> that'll almost certainly happen
[13:19] <ochosi> unless we dont get anything done
[13:20] <elfy> ochosi: to be frank - I'll be looking for it in update manager so I can purge PPAs :D
[13:21] <knome> yeah, he's just trolling
[13:21] <elfy> lol
[13:22] <knome> i mean ultimately, even if all real xubuntu development was done in PM's, who cares if it's good? :P
[13:22] <elfy> I don't :)
[13:22] <knome> (no, i don't really think like that, but there's some wisdom in that)
[13:22] <ochosi> elfy: i think that might take a while...
[13:22] <ochosi> and we'll only be working on a *plan* on how to resolve most of these things, it'll take more time (and other ppl) to resolve them
[13:22] <elfy> ochosi: well - we have 14 weeks
[13:24] <ochosi> i know
[13:25] <elfy> I'm afraid that I've become increasingly despondent as the weeks roll by - ignore me
[13:25] <elfy> bbl - off to fight the weather again
[13:26] <ochosi> elfy: don't be, i mean i'm also feeling like that sometimes, but still
[13:28] <brainwash> ochosi: so this should be fixed in lightdm-gtk-greeter or in lightdm?
[13:29] <ochosi> brainwash: as i haven't tested this, does removing the lock_hint-check resolve the whole issue?
[13:30] <brainwash> light-locker tells lightdm to do "switch-to-greeter" when you resume the system from suspend, but this action does not set the lock hint
[13:31] <brainwash> only "lock" does set this hint
[13:31] <ochosi> right
[13:32] <ochosi> so that's what i've understood so far and why i think it should be fixed in lightdm
[13:32] <ochosi> cause as you put in the report, switch-to-greeter does lock the session
[13:32] <ochosi> (or should)
[13:32] <brainwash> ok, but this will blank the screen on resume or when a user manually switches to the greeter
[13:33] <brainwash> yes, switch-to-greeter does also lock your user session
[13:35] <brainwash> is the additional screen blanking a valid problem?
[13:35] <brainwash> because if you manually switch to the greeter, you might not want the screen to blank
[13:36] <brainwash> only when you lock the session via "lock"
[13:36] <ochosi> hm, yeah, that's true
[13:36] <ochosi> sry, brb, lunchtime
[13:36] <brainwash> but not on a user switch for example
[13:36] <brainwash> ok
[15:34] <jarnos> elfy, are you still using this xflock4? http://paste.ubuntu.com/6679259/ I guess it won't run light-locker, if gnome-screensaver is installed. In here you can find an xflock4, that should be better: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3770
[15:35] <jarnos> elfy, current lates proposal is http://bug-attachment.xfce.org/attachment.cgi?id=5295
[15:45] <ochosi> brainwash: i'm back
[15:46] <ochosi> so i guess the desired behavior from the greeter is to only blank the screen on time-based locking or on user-activated locking, otherwise (i.e. suspend-locking and user-switch-locking) it shouldn't blank the screen cause the user will want to see the greeter
[15:48] <brainwash> ochosi: ok, so how can we fix this to work properly?
[15:49] <ochosi> i havent looked at the code yet, but i'll take a look in a little while
[15:49] <brainwash> does the proposed patch for the greeter break anything?
[15:53] <slickymaster> elfy ping me when you'll have a chance to
[15:55] <ochosi> brainwash: well you tell me, i haven't tested it yet :)
[15:57] <brainwash> ochosi: works for me so far
[15:58] <brainwash> so lets merge it :D
[16:01] <ochosi> i'll try to test it in a little while
[16:01] <ochosi> still have some stuff i gotta clean up
[17:05] <slickymaster> ochosi: ping
[17:09] <ochosi> slickymaster: pong
[17:10] <slickymaster> ochosi, do you now if there were any changes made to the default keyboard shortcuts?
[17:11] <ochosi> you mean in xubuntu?
[17:11] <ochosi> in trusty?
[17:11] <slickymaster> with today's daily build Super+T isn't opening terminal emulator
[17:11] <slickymaster> yes
[17:11] <slickymaster> and yes
[17:12] <ochosi> strange
[17:12] <slickymaster> presently the default number of shortcuts is way less than what it used to be
[17:12] <ochosi> i don't know anything about it at least
[17:12] <slickymaster> no shortcut for terminal, thunar
[17:12] <ochosi> are you in the correct session?
[17:12] <slickymaster> good point :)
[17:12] <slickymaster> let me check
[17:13] <slickymaster> nops
[17:13] <slickymaster> :(
[17:13] <ochosi> hm
[17:13] <ochosi> well the session fix really needs to land asap
[17:13] <ochosi> micahg: you around by any chance yet?
[17:14] <slickymaster> yes, asap
[17:14] <slickymaster> it has this effect
[17:14] <slickymaster> we always landing in a xfce session these days
[17:15] <ochosi> :/
[17:15] <slickymaster> we're ^^
[17:15] <ochosi> i'm afraid that many potential uploaders are still away till the 6th or even 7th
[17:16] <slickymaster> yeah, but you're right ochosi we really need the session fix to land urgently
[17:17] <brainwash> nothing is urgent :)
[17:17] <ochosi> the problem is that everyone has known that before christmas already, but there are no uploaders
[17:17] <ochosi> so things are stalling
[17:18] <slickymaster> hey, wait a minute
[17:18] <slickymaster> presently, I'm in a xubuntu session and facing the same thing
[17:18] <brainwash> and becoming an uploader seems to be quite stressful and takes ages
[17:19] <slickymaster> there are no shortcuts defined by default to either to thunar or to termina
[17:19] <ochosi> slickymaster: only those two are missing?
[17:19] <slickymaster> let me compare it with my stable trusty box
[17:20] <brainwash> slickymaster: you did start the normal xfce session first, so you will have to remove the config stuff in ~/.config
[17:20] <slickymaster> ochosi: gnumeric, abiword, gmusicbrowser and several others
[17:21] <slickymaster> yeah, I'm thinking the same brainwash
[17:21] <slickymaster> I'll do it in a sec
[17:21] <ochosi> i just checked, xubuntu-default-settings hasn't been altered
[17:21] <ochosi> it's still the version from saucy in trusty
[17:23] <slickymaster> ochosi, brainwash, the stuff in ~/.config was the culprit
[17:23] <ochosi> ok
[17:24] <ochosi> well i wouldn't have had a better explanation for now...
[17:47] <elfy> slickymaster: ping if it's a quick thing
[17:48] <slickymaster> elfy, it's about your comment on bug 1264525
[17:48] <slickymaster> it doesn't happens to me when I double click the file
[17:49] <elfy> oh yea - I was looking at that last night - must have had a duff thing going on here somewhere
[17:49] <slickymaster> even though the initial bud description by the reporter should be addressed
[17:50] <elfy> oh hang on - I'm talking about pleia2's pidgin thing
[17:50] <slickymaster> I'll do it in the weekend and will propose a merge
[17:50] <elfy> do what?
[17:50] <slickymaster> rewrite the test
[17:51] <elfy> slickymaster: actually do whatever - this is turning into a long thing - I'm not concentrating at all
[17:51] <slickymaster> the reporter is right
[17:51] <elfy> ^^
[17:52] <slickymaster> ok, i'll do it
[17:53] <elfy> ok - back tomorrow at some point
[17:55] <ochosi> brainwash: http://git.io/TaKJFQ
[18:01] <brainwash> ochosi: subtle addition :)
[18:02] <brainwash> this version should be ok
[18:02] <brainwash> until someone else starts to complain about it
[18:06] <brainwash> ochosi: any drafts available for the xfce4-panel default layout and configuration of the new panel plugins?
[18:07] <brainwash> and choice of indicators over plugins (e.g. indicator-session or action button panel plugin)
[18:09] <brainwash> whisker-menu offers quite some settings which could be adjusted for Xubuntu
[18:13] <ochosi> brainwash: i started with a draft before xmas, but haven't continued with it tbh
[18:14] <ochosi> i'm not sure about the session-menu tbh, it doesn't work well with what we have and would have to be patched
[18:14] <ochosi> the indicator-power is something i'd pick though and simply hide xfce4-powerman's trayicon
[18:15] <brainwash> what about indicator-power, -bluetooth, -date/time?
[18:15] <ochosi> hm, nah, datetime also needs patches
[18:15] <ochosi> because it opens the datetime settings of ubuntu iirc
[18:15] <brainwash> yea right
[18:15] <ochosi> indicator-power has the same issue, but i've already written the patch for it
[18:16] <ochosi> there's little that indicator-datetime can do the panel-clock can't
[18:16] <ochosi> so from my pov, it'd be: power,sound,messages,application and maybe bluetooth (haven't tested that one yet) by default
[18:17] <ochosi> i'm currently thinking of a single-panel layout
[18:18] <brainwash> ok, should I create a report for shimmer-themes to request the button glow effect in the sound menu?
[18:18] <brainwash> if you hover over the play button for example
[18:18] <ochosi> yeah, i know what you mean
[18:19] <ochosi> it's not working in gtk3 only iirc
[18:19] <brainwash> it bugs me.. you cannot make the seen unseen >.<
[18:20] <brainwash> not working in gtk3 only?
[18:20] <ochosi> i think in gtk2 it should work
[18:20] <ochosi> (unless they broke something there)
[18:20] <brainwash> ah, maybe
[18:21] <brainwash> but we don't care about that anymore
[18:21] <brainwash> trusty needs our attention
[18:22] <ochosi> yeah, well there's still the fallback option to go with gtk2 indicators for trusty in case things fail
[18:22] <ochosi> anyway, gotta check the gtk3 indicator code now
[18:30] <ochosi> ali1234: have you tried gtkparasite in 13.10? (or: with gtk3.8)
[18:33] <sergio-br2> the default shortcut to terminal is not Ctrl+Alt+T ?
[18:35] <slickymaster> Noskcaj, when you'll get a chance to, ping me on bug 1262492
[18:35] <slickymaster> I'm wondering if it really should be considered a bug instead of user request
[18:35] <slickymaster> sergio-br2: the default shortcut in Xubuntu is Super+T
[18:36] <slickymaster> sergio-br2: Ctrl+Alt+T is the default shortcut in Ubuntu
[18:36] <sergio-br2> hum, but in ISO is Ctrl+Alt+t, or not?
[18:36] <slickymaster> no, still Super+T
[18:37] <Unit193> slickymaster: Pretty sure we fixed that in saucy though.
[18:37] <sergio-br2> hum, but it's a bit strange, if whisker menu will be the default menu for xfce. Because Super open the whisker menu...
[18:38] <sergio-br2> well, if you make the config to it
[18:39] <slickymaster> sergio-br2: whisker doesn't comes shipped by default
[18:40] <sergio-br2> yes, it is what i said before.
[18:40] <ochosi> we haven't settled on a default shortcut if whiskermenu is there by default
[18:41] <ochosi> could be something like super+spacxe
[18:41] <slickymaster> got to run now, bbl
[18:42] <sergio-br2> there is 2 shortcut that works in ubuntu, but not in xubuntu. The shortcut for Calculator and the enable/disable touchpad. I can config this, but i don't know why it does not come as ubuntu
[18:43] <holstein> sergio-br2: they are the same repos, and xubuntu is an official spin, but it doesnt have to be the same as, nor try to emulate, necessarily, ubuntu in any way
[18:45] <sergio-br2> yes, but for a noob user, he expects that his shortcut for calculator, for example, works out-of-box.
[18:46] <sergio-br2> like others, such touchpad enable/disable, bright up and down, sound level...
[18:46] <holstein> sergio-br2: personally, ive never expected a shortcut to a calculator.. but, those shortcuts are editable
[18:46] <holstein> sergio-br2: you cant ever please everyone...
[18:47] <ochosi> +1
[18:47] <sergio-br2> hum, yeah, it's true
[19:01] <brainwash> but you are talking about the media keys or?
[19:03] <sergio-br2> i'm talking about Fn + other keys
[19:06] <brainwash> you could add missing ones if possible and create a patch
[19:07] <sergio-br2> i'm searching the files to make the patch
[19:07] <sergio-br2> xfce4-settings ?
[19:07] <brainwash> xubuntu-default-settings I guess
[19:07] <sergio-br2> ok
[19:08] <Unit193> I'd presume restoring the old C+A+Esc xkill keybind wouldn't do.
[19:09] <brainwash> sergio-br2: bug 1165266
[19:10] <ochosi> bbiab
[19:11] <sergio-br2> interesting
[19:11] <Unit193> So what all pull requests are pending ?
[19:11] <Unit193> Didn't blues have two?
[19:12] <brainwash> ouch.. bug 1227637
[19:16] <brainwash> sometimes it's really sad that fixes/patches get delayed so much :(
[19:18] <Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/+activereviews - https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.trusty/+activereviews  And what, other times it's a happy thing? :P
[19:20] <brainwash> most of the time it's simply "whatever" :D
[19:22] <brainwash> however, people like and use Xubuntu, so this 14.04 LTS release should be an awesome one
[20:42] <brainwash> does Xfce restore running apps even if this feature is unticked?
[20:43] <brainwash> I never used this before, but it really behaves strange.. no wonder so many users complain about it and flood the forums with threads about it
[20:48] <sergio-br2> in saucy there was a problem with this, but in trusty it's work right, i think
[20:56] <jarnos> brainwash, are you using it in 13.10?
[20:58] <jarnos> Bad session memory has been a long time issue with Xfce, so it is good, if it is fixed for the future release.
[21:03] <ochosi> jarnos: you're also using xubuntu?
[21:04] <jarnos> ochosi, yes, 13.10
[21:04] <ochosi> yeah, i've also seen some session problems in 13.10, but as i've "polluted" my system with tons of components from git, i'm not sure it's not my fault :)
[21:05] <jarnos> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10593
[21:09] <ochosi> i see
[21:09] <ochosi> not sure i'd call it a long-time issue, 4.10.1 isn't that old yet (in xfce release time)
[21:12] <jarnos> ochosi, yes, but I have had different kind of problems with it before. It couldn't remember sessions right or something...
[21:15] <ochosi> mhm
[21:15] <jarnos> ochosi, Then I had to delete xfce session cache from ~/.cache/sessions
[21:19] <jarnos> doing that after logout might help to forget xfce session in 13.10 ;)
[22:30] <jarnos> ochosi, brainwash sergio-br2 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-panel/+bug/1204919/comments/7 So has this behavior changed somehow in trusty? It has the same version of xfce4-session, right?
[22:31] <knome> micahg-work, micahg: ping me when you're around.
[22:33] <sergio-br2> jarnos, if you save some session, and after you choose to not save session, then the last save session will be used by the system
[22:34] <jarnos> sergio-br2, yes, it is the same in saucy.
[22:34] <ochosi> have you checked whether the xfconf variable remains set?
[22:35] <sergio-br2> but this option, "Automatically save session on logout", is working well in trusty. If you check this, it saves the session, if you don't check, it will not save the session. But in Saucy there is a problem with this option.
[22:38] <sergio-br2> jarnos, so, you think that if you uncheck session save options, the next session could be an empty session?
[22:40] <sergio-br2> If you uncheck session save option, it does not necessarily mean that you want to erase the previous saved sessions.
[22:43] <jarnos> sergio-br2, I don't see the problem in saucy.
[22:44] <sergio-br2> hum, so, it was fixed? A month ago i was with this problem. Don't know.
[22:45] <jarnos> sergio-br2, many people tend to assume that if you choose "do not save" it means "start next time empty session". I guess it is too hard to find the option to start like that.
[22:45] <jarnos> sergio-br2, how did it behave then?
[22:47] <sergio-br2> "many people tend to assume that if you choose "do not save" it means "start next time empty session"" , yeah, this happened with me, i thought like this hehe :)
[22:52] <sergio-br2> i know that you have to erase the previous saved session manually, but i don't know what the better xfce behavior after you choose "do not save"
[22:52] <sergio-br2> i tested this in trusty
[23:02] <jarnos> sergio-br2, it could have another checkbox then : "delete saved session"
[23:03] <sergio-br2> but there is this option in Session tab, "Clear saved sessions" button, take a look
[23:08] <jarnos> sergio-br2, yes there is, but it could be in the logout window, too. I think it would be more intuitive.
[23:08] <sergio-br2> hum, yeah, this would be an wish list
[23:10] <jarnos> sergio-br2, or it could be like "Use saved session on next login"
[23:14] <sergio-br2> but there is something like this, try to check "Display chooser on login" option in General tab and do a logout and login, then you will see an window, with the saved session (Default) and a "New session" button.
[23:32] <jarnos> sergio-br2, good point.
[23:35] <sergio-br2> jarnos, if there is no saved session, then there is no window for session choice, even if "Display chooser on login" is checked
[23:36] <sergio-br2> *in the login