[07:34] <knightdroid> Mornin
[07:34] <dwatkins> wotcher
[07:40] <knightdroid> Hey dwatkins
[07:50] <dwatkins> I've been trying to understand why one of the munin scripts isn't working when I try to extend it, it's like perl is some kind of magic.
[08:03] <ali1234> i think i found a no nonsense issue tracker like i was looking for the other week
[08:03] <ali1234> https://github.com/mikelbring/tinyissue
[08:05] <dwatkins> that is indeed neat
[08:05] <ali1234> i especially like that it is easy to install and does not need any weird stuff like ruby
[08:06] <ali1234> gitlab has a install script that installs random packages in /usr/local and creates users on the system and who knows what else
[08:06] <dwatkins> This is how these things should be.
[08:06] <ali1234> and no way to undo it automatically of course
[08:07] <dwatkins> A friend reccomended I use Mercator for version control, this looks like it might be worth considering as well.
[08:08] <ali1234> i guess it depends on your situation
[08:08] <ali1234> i'm one developer with two users and i just need something better than getting an email once a month with "here's all the things we want you to fix"
[08:08] <dwatkins> yeah, this is all for future personal development, it's not like I'll be working with people already setup to use git or svn.
[08:09] <dwatkins> I use hnb at home ;)
[08:09] <ali1234> i don't know what that means, sorry
[08:10] <dwatkins> oh sorry, I mean that for tracking my own issues I use the heirarchical notebook application on the console
[08:10] <dwatkins> within screen, of course
[08:10] <ali1234> still no idea what that means
[08:10] <ali1234> just run hnb in terminal?
[08:10] <dwatkins> yeah
[08:10] <ali1234> for my own stuff i just remember what i need to do :)
[08:11] <ali1234> the problem is discussing requested changes
[08:11] <ali1234> and keeping it straight so everyone knows what has been fixed, what is still in discussion, and what is just a dumb request
[08:12] <ali1234> hnb looks fun
[08:12] <ali1234> would prefer GUI version though
[08:12] <dwatkins> we use a fairly complex custimised support ticketing system at work, but people don't always read the notes
[08:12] <ali1234> it's not my problem if people don't read the comments :)
[08:12] <dwatkins> it's web-based, but I weep internally whenever I run wireshark to track something as the page checks for changes every second for some reason, even when it's not doing anything.
[08:12] <dwatkins> hehe, yeah
[08:14] <dwatkins> I could probably use a spreadsheet or other google docs shared document, but I like to be able to get to my shopping/to-do list from anywhere, hence hnb inside screen
[08:15] <dwatkins> I'd best go do something about breakfast, ttfn :)
[08:29] <diplo> Morning all
[08:31] <daubers> o/
[08:32] <tom1210> #ubuntu
[08:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> AMD to start making ARM-based CPUs... http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/10/amd-announces-arm-based-opteron-cpus-due-to-launch-in-2014/
[08:33] <CaMason> :o
[08:33] <tom1210> how do i find the ubuntu support channel?
[08:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> Interesting slide saying that ARM is a good fit for everything "cloud" and opensource.
[08:34] <CaMason> it's quite exciting to see a new CPU architecture emerging even in 2012
[08:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> tom1210: This is the UK Ubuntu channel
[08:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> the main one is just #ubuntu
[08:35] <tom1210> how do i change channels please
[08:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> type "/join #channel-name
[08:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> no quotes
[08:35] <tom1210> thanks a lot
[08:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> np
[08:36] <Azelphur> morning folks, I've been up all night :P
[08:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> Is that good Azelphur
[08:36] <Azelphur> well it turned out well I guess, but not so much xD
[08:36] <Azelphur> my server is in NY
[08:36] <Azelphur> and about to go for a swim
[08:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> I remember those first days of passion and love :-D
[08:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ah...
[08:36] <CaMason> oh dear Azelphur
[08:36] <Azelphur> rented a VPS to pull all the data off it as fast as I could at 100mbit
[08:37] <Azelphur> I got everything off
[08:37] <Azelphur> so now I'm just chilling out awaiting the inevitable
[08:37] <CaMason> aren't all the main UK/US undersea cables connecting to NY?
[08:37] <Azelphur> CaMason: yep
[08:38] <CaMason> that'll be fun if the peering datacentre dies
[08:38] <Azelphur> indeed
[08:38] <Azelphur> http://pastebin.com/VBG2ELFB is the mail I got \o/
[08:38] <CaMason> oh snap
[08:39] <bb15> Good morning!
[08:39] <Azelphur> I think InterNAP is the last DC standing, I've been told a few others are already gone
[08:40] <CaMason> taken gawker out
[08:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> Gosh, but that's a decent email. Explaining what is going on quite well and succinctly.
[08:40] <Azelphur> indeed
[08:40] <CaMason> until everyone logs in and starts xferring data, increasing loads and power consumption, suddnely it dies within 30 minutes
[08:41] <Azelphur> CaMason: yea, I could barely get 40mbit on my gigabit line
[08:41] <Azelphur> was crazy
[08:41] <CaMason> reminds me of the floods in Oxfordshire a few years ago. My dad's office server was flooded - the water came up to 1 inch below the hard drive
[08:42] <CaMason> no backups /facepalm
[08:45] <ali1234> why you using US servers?
[08:46] <Azelphur> ali1234: nyc gets decent pings to EU and USA.
[08:53] <directhex> gawker is still offline
[10:11] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[10:12] <daubers> It's not morning until bacon
[10:12] <bigcalm> daubers: are you in limbo?
[10:13] <Flashtek> AlanBell: camera arrived just now...
[10:20] <SuperMatt> morning
[10:20] <SuperMatt> reddit's /r/ubuntu is being filled with people installing ubuntu for the first time
[10:20] <SuperMatt> I have a feeling this has something to do with valve
[10:20] <SuperMatt> such a shame a lot of them are using wubi
[10:21] <daubers> bigcalm: Bacon limbo? The tastiest of all limbo's
[10:21] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:22] <mungojerry> SuperMatt, wubi can be a first step to greatness
[10:22] <SuperMatt> indeed
[10:22] <mungojerry> AKA practising "safe linux"
[10:23] <SuperMatt> but if they expect to get good performance out of steam, they are mistaken
[10:23] <mungojerry> if i was a windows user i'd be trying wubi first
[10:23] <mungojerry> until it was necessary to resize partitions
[10:26] <SuperMatt> I don't disagree with that, but like I said, there are going to be some disappointed people, and some may even be turned off linux, if they don't get good performance out of wubi.
[10:27] <bashrc> wubi?
[10:27] <NET||abuse> what a day :) finally got graphics driver working, kill otimus install linux-headers-generic and use the unstable experimental nvidia driver,
[10:27] <NET||abuse> nothing else would work :(
[10:28] <bashrc> getting proprietary drivers working in 12.10 is not for the feint of heart
[10:28] <NET||abuse> now, why is synergy 1.3.8 the pacakged version? synergy 1.4.10 has been out since July!
[10:30] <NET||abuse> bashrc: :) thankfully i have patience, and calml, and serenity and, phfsffdzf bloody thing!!
[10:31] <bashrc> "Windows-based Ubuntu Installer", apparently
[10:31] <NET||abuse> huh?
[10:32] <bashrc> I don't have much involvement with Windows, so hadn't heard of wubi
[10:32] <NET||abuse> oh someone else talking bout that
[10:32] <NET||abuse> i tried it with a potential convert, didnt' take very well
[10:33] <bashrc> Probably it's easier just to boot from a DVD or USB drive
[10:33] <NET||abuse> vm
[10:33] <directhex> wubi uses the old beos boot method? i.e. a big disk image on a windows partition as rootfs?
[10:34] <NET||abuse> yup, hinkso
[10:34] <NET||abuse> think so
[10:34] <bashrc> but in a vm linux often doesn't perform very well - especially things like Unity
[10:34] <NET||abuse> what's the source "Canonical Partners" package up?
[10:34] <ali1234> linux peforms extremely well in a VM
[10:34] <NET||abuse> unity doesn't perform well
[10:34] <NET||abuse> but linux performs like a champ
[10:34] <ali1234> unity doesn't perform well anywhere
[10:34] <bashrc> not in my experience
[10:35] <bashrc> heh
[10:35] <directhex> yes, let's run linux in a vm on windows, in order to play 3d games
[10:35] <directhex> that'll be the best for performance
[10:35] <NET||abuse> hehehe
[10:35] <NET||abuse> try bsd warden
[10:35] <directhex> and not in any way suck bowling balls through a straw
[10:35] <ali1234> is that what someone actually suggested?
[10:35] <NET||abuse> run linux inside that jail
[10:35] <bashrc> for instance, I have the beefy miracle running in a VM.  It works, but is very slow
[10:35] <mungojerry> is it national grumpy day today?
[10:35] <ali1234> lol
[10:35] <directhex> mungojerry, i'm a sysadmin. every day is grumpy day
[10:36] <ali1234> bashrc: fedora uses gnome shell. gnome shell is also infected with gpu-itis
[10:36] <NET||abuse> i need to get on with synergy, damn version incompatability,, sucks
[10:36] <ali1234> any other desktop will work fine in a VM, possible except of KDE4
[10:36] <mungojerry> i've been away for 10 days, well by away i mean doing anger management with a 2yr old
[10:37] <bashrc> heh
[10:37] <bashrc> terrible twos
[10:37] <mungojerry> yeah
[10:37] <mungojerry> wasn't chuffed about me going to work today
[10:37] <bashrc> some people never grow out of it :-)
[10:38] <NET||abuse> would you think using getdeb repo a bad idea?
[10:38] <mungojerry> has anyone else treid elementary nightly builds?
[10:39] <NET||abuse> hmm, how can i push for updting of certain pacakges in ubuntu?
[10:39] <NET||abuse> just very supprised by certain out of datenesses
[10:40] <bashrc> indeed it is often the case that packages are out of date
[10:40] <bashrc> the procedure for repackaging and resubmitting more up to date stuff doesn't seem especially clear
[10:43] <BigRedS> you dont get big version changes during a release. if it's not a security patch it generallyy has to wait for the next release
[10:43] <BigRedS> so the way you do that is to set up a PPA generally
[10:44] <czajkowski> aloha
[10:44] <mungojerry> it's the fastest OS i've used in ages
[10:44] <mungojerry> i don't know what sort of witchcraft they have done
[10:45] <bashrc> which operating system are you refering to?
[10:45] <BigRedS> aha!
[10:45] <ali1234> NET||abuse: if you want a package updated in ubuntu the procedure is simple
[10:46] <ali1234> first you have to get it updated in debian
[10:46] <bashrc> what's the procedure for getting it updated in debian?
[10:46] <ali1234> they you want for approximately 6-12 months
[10:46] <bashrc> heh, yes
[10:46] <ali1234> the procedure for getting it updated in debian is also simple
[10:46] <NET||abuse> ali1234: hahah, ouch
[10:46] <ali1234> first become a debian developer
[10:46] <ali1234> then take over maintenance of the package
[10:47] <bashrc> becoming a debian developer seems non-trivial
[10:47] <ali1234> (if it isn't being updated, existing maintainer has probably quit)
[10:47] <bashrc> I've investigated trying to get some of my own packages into debian, and it does appear to be a very long and haphazard process
[10:48] <mungojerry> bashrc, elementaryos: http://noiaggiorniamo.blogspot.co.uk/p/daily-luna-1.html
[10:48] <BigRedS> yeah, well you're askig the debian project to support it for at least the life of the next stable
[10:48] <ali1234> elementary looks really nice
[10:48] <NET||abuse> hmm, i've got dual screen setup and the app bar is causing a nasty level of mouse pointer sticky ness on the secondary monitor edge
[10:49] <ali1234> i can't even tell what desktop it uses
[10:49] <ali1234> it doesn't have any of the problems that i associate with them so i just can't place it
[10:49] <ali1234> NET||abuse: you can configure that in CCSM
[10:50] <mungojerry> ali1234, it uses a different one, gala
[10:50] <mungojerry> nearly everythingworks as expected
[10:50] <mungojerry> intuitive etc
[10:50] <ali1234> not horribly ugly
[10:50] <mungojerry> have you actaully tried it? its slick too
[10:50] <ali1234> no
[10:50] <BigRedS> i don't believe you
[10:51] <ali1234> i don't want to move to an unsupported base distro just to get a fancy desktop
[10:51] <mungojerry> the base is ubuntu
[10:51] <ali1234> same reason i'm not using mint
[10:51] <ali1234> is it ubuntu or is it an unsupported fork of ubuntu, like mint?
[10:51] <mungojerry> its the best linux experience in years
[10:51] <bashrc> is it the best thing since sliced bread?
[10:52] <mungojerry> it feels fresh in the same way ubuntu felt fresh when it came out
[10:53] <ali1234> i just noticed it uses a dock, so that's a deal breaker
[10:53] <BigRedS> sliced bread is overrated
[10:53] <BigRedS> bread knives are easy to come by
[10:53] <ali1234> sliced bread goes moldy faster
[10:53] <mungojerry> ali1234, try it anyway, just for giggles. even the liveusb loads like a rocket
[10:54] <ali1234> and supermarket sliced white is horrible
[10:54] <bashrc> bread making machines ftw
[10:54] <ali1234> you can hardly even call it bread
[10:54] <BigRedS> yeah. slived really isn't a compelling feature
[10:55] <mungojerry> just try it fellas
[10:55] <ali1234>  /grumps
[10:55] <mungojerry> you guys are a hard sell
[10:55] <bashrc> so what is compelling about elementary?
[10:55] <bashrc> does it have bohi-like bling?
[10:55] <bashrc> bodhi
[10:55] <ali1234> it's a modern polished desktop that isn't gnome shell, kde, or ubuntu
[10:56] <bashrc> what's the window manager?
[10:56] <ali1234> gala
[10:56] <mungojerry> its fast and pretty and most importantly does not suffer from the annoyances i experience on unity/GS/etc
[10:56] <bashrc> never heard of gala
[10:56] <ali1234> yes
[10:56] <ali1234> but more importantly is what is the dock and can i replace it with a window list?
[10:56] <BigRedS> when the main feature is 'is not X, Y or Z' i get a bit skeptical... :)
[10:56] <mungojerry> the dock is plank
[10:56] <mungojerry> (non mono)
[10:57] <bashrc> gnu is not unix
[10:57] <NET||abuse> yay,, got synergy 1.4.10 from getdeb, works a treat
[10:57] <BigRedS> bashrc: exactly!
[10:57] <ali1234> does the dock work well? does it correctly tell the difference between java windows?
[10:58] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:58] <bashrc> is the dock always stuck to the left hand side?
[10:58] <ali1234> it's on the bottom by default
[10:58] <ali1234> basically elementary looks exatly like OS X
[10:58] <bashrc> innovative
[10:59] <bashrc> eesh
[10:59] <bashrc> that sounds like an antifeature
[10:59] <ali1234> if you're going to copy something at least copy it exactly
[10:59] <mungojerry> just try it guys
[10:59] <bashrc> coppies of other OSs are boring
[10:59] <ali1234> what i can't stand is when developers copy something and then say "oh but i can do better" and then make something much worse which is only superficially the same thing
[10:59] <ali1234> >_>
[11:00] <CaMason> *cough* unity
[11:00] <ali1234> (that's me looking sideways at unity)
[11:01] <bashrc> if it looks exactly like OSX then you might as well just use OSX and cut out the middle OS
[11:01] <mungojerry> all the apps have been written from scratch for a integrated set of apps
[11:01] <CaMason> due to the current Virtualbox 3D bug, I've had to go back to gnome classic... and I've found it quite refreshing
[11:01] <ali1234> integrated apps are pointless if you do not use them
[11:01] <BigRedS> party like it's 2003
[11:01] <CaMason> lol BigRedS
[11:02] <ali1234> do they have integrated text editor and terminal? and what does that even mean?
[11:02] <ali1234> integrated gcc?
[11:02] <CaMason> I have an integrated washing machine
[11:02] <CaMason> I'm not ever sure what that means.
[11:02] <ali1234> "integrated" "apps" only makes sense for a certain class of software
[11:02] <bashrc> as opposed to a disintegrated one?
[11:03] <directhex> "integrated" differential equations
[11:03] <BigRedS> it means it's hard to stop using itband startvusing something else
[11:03] <ali1234> that class being PIM/social network/photos/sharing
[11:03] <bashrc> you're stuck with it
[11:03] <CaMason> BigRedS, yes, indeed.
[11:03] <BigRedS> like gnome's integrated chat and proxy config...
[11:04] <ali1234> i saw a post somewhere the other day
[11:04] <CaMason> I saw a post too
[11:04] <ali1234> some guy was like "i wasn't sure about unity but my 3 year old picked it up straight away so it must be because i am just used to the old ways"
[11:05] <ali1234> right. and certainly not because you use a computer for different tasks than a 3 year old
[11:05] <bashrc> can a 3 year old install the proprietary drivers?
[11:05] <ali1234> good question
[11:05] <BigRedS> i've been slightly embarrased to find Unity absolutely fine recently
[11:06] <ali1234> the answer is probably, if they mash the <input device> enough
[11:06] <CaMason> I don't mind unit, apart from the 'start menu'
[11:06] <BigRedS> i think i've run out of gnome shell installs
[11:06] <CaMason> I love the program search... if I type 'Net', I see NetBeans... if I type 'NetB' or 'Net B', it's nowhere to be found :|
[11:07] <ali1234> but this is the issue: unity is good if you are mindlessly wasting time on facebook and youtube. search is great for this. it can provide endless distractions for your inner 3 year old.
[11:07] <ali1234> if you are actually trying to do a specific task it is awful.
[11:07] <BigRedS> i find unity fine for work
[11:08] <CaMason> I really dislike the global bar thing
[11:08] <CaMason> forgot who I was talking to yesterday about it
[11:08] <BigRedS> it used to be impossible to work on but either it has changed or i have in the past 18 months or so
[11:08] <ali1234> unity is just about passable if you are a coder and can just open a terminal and then do everything in that
[11:09] <ali1234> you might just as well be using a VT in that case
[11:09] <BigRedS> i'm a sysadmin; i need a shell and an im client...
[11:12] <NET||abuse> ubuntu restricted extras is still a thing?
[11:12] <bashrc> yes
[11:12] <NET||abuse> worth doing?
[11:12] <bashrc> depends
[11:13] <NET||abuse> well that's the question, what's the pro's/cons?
[11:13] <bashrc> the pros would be if you have files in proprietary formats which you want to play
[11:14] <NET||abuse> ok
[11:14] <NET||abuse> i have that :0
[11:14] <bashrc> the cons would be unsupported binary blobs containing who knows what and possible security issues
[11:14] <NET||abuse> hmm, well, it's something i just have to live with unfortunately,
[11:15] <BigRedS> heh. i've just enjoyed realising that i don't need that and then been saddened to realise that it's because my music is even more closed...
[11:15] <daubers> The con would be Richard Stallman breathing down your neck for using "evil" things. But you're probably doing that by using Ubuntu anyway, or just breathing or something
[11:16] <NET||abuse> video audio and ebook formats, hardware drivers web video and document standards, it's a harsh world.
[11:16] <CaMason> "HOW DARE YOU USE THAT EVIL SOFTWARE?!?!" -Send from my iPad
[11:16] <NET||abuse> Your being negative in the freedom dimension!
[11:16] <bashrc> the problem with unsupported binaries is that (1) they're unsupported and (2) they could potentially contain any kind of malware or security holes
[11:17] <bashrc> heh
[11:17] <bashrc> Lunduke ftw
[11:17] <NET||abuse> he's a bit of a cocky guy, but i like brian
[11:17] <NET||abuse> he made that podcast lively
[11:17] <bashrc> he did
[11:18] <bashrc> it's still good though.  Excellent production quality
[11:18] <NET||abuse> chris is continuing with matt, and their research and content is very very good , better even than when it was brian and chris. but still miss the crazy humour
[11:46] <mungojerry> i haven't watched/listened any podcast for last 9 months, used to listen to uupc and LAS every show
[11:46] <mungojerry> but i tried LAS the other day for their 12.10 review
[11:46] <bashrc> liked the recent one on home server security
[11:47] <NET||abuse> yeh, the home server one was packed with info
[11:47] <mungojerry> they got a bit ranty with chris and bri
[11:48] <bashrc> still probably one of the top linux podcasts
[11:48] <mungojerry> it's not hard
[11:59] <knightdroid> Meeeeurnin
[13:34] <czajkowski> BigRedS: where be you?
[13:34] <popey> front row
[13:34] <popey> i see him
[13:34] <popey> well
[13:34] <popey> i see his hair
[13:35] <czajkowski> oh indeed
[13:37] <CaMason> you all sat at UDS?
[13:38] <davmor2> CaMason: No I'm sat at home
[14:09] <NET||abuse> boy oh boy, just remembered, does mta-tools have a way of integrating with nautilus?
[14:09] <NET||abuse> as in, can i connect to my android devices easily now in 12.10?
[14:10] <NET||abuse> does the mta protocol work finally?
[14:10] <NET||abuse> i'm trying it and i get ntohing in nautilus.
[14:11] <NET||abuse> sorry, mtp-tools
[14:11] <NET||abuse> durr
[14:12] <SuperMatt> it works, it just doesn't work very well
[14:12] <NET||abuse> such a drag, why is this hard?
[14:12] <SuperMatt> I get error messages, but if I ignore them everything is fine
[14:12] <NET||abuse> will it only communicate with an sdcard?
[14:13] <NET||abuse> really want to push some stuff up onto the nexus7
[14:13] <SuperMatt> only what's onboard, not what you put in, I believe
[14:13] <NET||abuse> ah, well that' fine as n7 doesnt have extra, and phone didn't put a sd card into it.
[14:13] <NET||abuse> still, is there some extra packages i need?
[14:23] <NET||abuse> ohh, just had some luck on nexus7 with gmtp
[14:23] <NET||abuse> nice
[14:23] <SuperMatt> cooll
[14:24] <SuperMatt> wow, I'm just leafing through some books about windows 8, and it seems the instructions in those are so poorly laid out, that no users has any real chance of being able to read them
[14:25] <lornajane> I did an event in a microsoft office recently.  I got my laptop out and they went "yay, a PC" and then I opened the lid and they went ".... oh"
[14:25] <SuperMatt> and it's really silly seeing the screenshots jump between notro, the classic desktop, and the classic desktop with bits of notro shackled to it
[14:26] <mgdm> I have Win8 as of the weekend
[14:26] <mgdm> so far... well, it's not vista
[14:26] <SuperMatt> me too
[14:26] <SuperMatt> it's a confused mess
[14:26] <mgdm> yes, but it's not vista! :-)
[14:26] <lornajane> I pointed out that I have the windows 7 *sticker* on it.  They were not placated :)
[14:26] <SuperMatt> I would take vista over 8.
[14:27] <mgdm> lornajane: what environment is it you use? LXDE or some such...?
[14:27] <BigRedS> heh. every free software confrrence has a laptop/projector provlem...
[14:28] <lornajane> mgdm: well ... I installed mint with LXDE but it drove me a bit mad in places
[14:28] <lornajane> so I put XFCE on as well and use that instead
[14:28] <mgdm> Ah ha
[14:28] <lornajane> it's almost xubuntu, but not quite
[14:28] <lornajane> and I still don't have everything right, so annoying
[14:28] <SuperMatt> I so very much love unity
[14:28] <lornajane> my terminal can't beep visually
[14:29] <lornajane> SuperMatt: I expected to love unity, and didn't.  And I'm only running a web browser, skype, and an infinite number of terminal windows ... so it doesn't really matter
[14:31] <popey> haha lornajane
[14:32] <directhex> i saw the Windows 8 Problem well articulated
[14:32] <directhex> it feels like two OSes munged together. badly.
[14:33] <mgdm> Yeah, with a certain amount of gaffer tape
[14:34] <directhex> pritt stick.
[19:02] <davmor2> directhex: ping
[19:03] <directhex> hm?
[19:05] <davmor2> directhex: what's the issue you are having with torchlight and psychonauts I figure it might be easier here than on twitter feel free to dm me to save boring the channel if you want
[19:05] <directhex> torchlight still lacks the ability to display both headgear and heads at the same time
[19:06] <directhex> psychonauts still can't display animated textures, meaning every level right from basic braining looks worse than running the windows version on minimum detail
[19:07] <directhex> heh, now psychonauts doesn't even run
[19:08] <directhex> /opt/psychonauts/psychonauts.sh: line 4:  4842 Segmentation fault      (core dumped) LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. force_s3tc_enable=true ./Psychonauts
[19:11] <davmor2> directhex: Yeah I noticed the head and headgear issue on torchlight, http://www.torchlightgame.com/support/ and for psychonuats  http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewforum/6/  if you let the devs know the issues might get resolved please add the fact you got it via the HIB and you are on Ubuntu.  Hopefully that will get stuff fixed then
[19:15] <directhex> davmor2, they're well known issues. i think the linux porters' contracts expired. so no more fixes.
[19:43] <ali1234> i see an update for torchlight but update manage won't install it
[19:45] <ali1234> still waiting for directhex to tell me psychonauts "actually works now"
[19:46] <directhex> can't even run it anymore. dunno if that's a precise issue, or generally
[19:50] <ali1234> works for me
[19:50] <Azelphur> whelp, my data center sunk.
[19:50] <Azelphur> :<
[19:51] <ali1234> once you run it you cannot quit the game until you've made a character and gone through a tiresome tutorial "move the mouse up to look up!"
[19:51] <ali1234> which is completely retarded game design
[19:51] <shauno> Azelphur: I'm picturing you in a neon-orange inflatable raft, clutching a 2U
[19:52] <Azelphur> shauno: indeed :(
[19:52] <ali1234> Azelphur: my websites are hosted in the EU
[19:52] <Azelphur> ali1234: fun :)
[19:53] <shauno> Azelphur: are they actually hit?  or just lost utilities
[19:54] <Azelphur> shauno: the grid is down and the generator room flooded
[19:54] <shauno> that's not so bad; a fairly recoverable position
[19:54] <Azelphur> indeed
[19:55] <Azelphur> I don't expect it to be back for a while though
[19:59] <shauno> my issue tracker looks like a measels outbreak atm
[20:01] <shauno> http://cl.ly/image/2r0U2X3h0u0s   where the metric is sites similar to what you describe
[20:02] <diplo> evening all
[20:10] <nucc1> does anyone else find that the "dynamic" scrollbars interfer with window resizing sometimes?
[20:13] <MartijnVdS> I turned them off for that reason
[20:13] <nucc1> ah, onto google to find out how to turn them off. i didn't know i could
[20:14] <nucc1> nice, i can turn off global menu too :)
[20:14] <nucc1> bit of a pain to use on multiple monitors
[20:14] <MartijnVdS> s/a bit//
[20:15] <nucc1> he he. i was being polite
[20:15] <AlanBell> hope this UDS they come up with some stuff that people will be excited to keep
[20:15] <nucc1> hardware support sounds good to me :)
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Steam falls into that category, doesn't it?
[20:16] <AlanBell> not for me :)
[20:16] <nucc1> i wish they would keep the kernel stable so that vmware would be usable too :p
[20:16] <ali1234> nucc1: yes, i've reported that bug with scrollbars
[20:16] <AlanBell> DRM encumbered toys \o/
[20:16] <ali1234> especially when reszing a window that has panels.. they fixed it for the outer window edge
[20:17] <ali1234> bug 907837
[20:17] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: vmware? Why? kvm + libvirt++
[20:17] <AlanBell> HUD is really cool for web apps
[20:17] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, the stuff i need is works only with vmware or hyperv
[20:17] <AlanBell> I just normally turn it off because it steals the alt key from VMs
[20:17] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: you need the wrong things then ;)
[20:17] <ali1234> turn off ALL the things!
[20:18] <AlanBell> yeah :(
[20:18] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, he he
[20:18] <AlanBell> people turn off the amazon lens, the dash as a whole, the window buttons, the scrollbars, the global menu, the alt-tab switcher
[20:19] <AlanBell> and even in full fanboi mode I fail to get excited by any of those things
[20:19] <MartijnVdS> I use focus-follows-mouse, I only use the alt-tab thing rarely
[20:19] <nucc1> i use gnome-shell, and disable the "workspaces only on primary" thing.
[20:19] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: gnome-shell, isn't that where "they" decided you should have one app per workspace
[20:19] <nucc1> maybe i'm an outlier
[20:20] <nucc1> it actuall works pretty well for me
[20:20] <ali1234> not around here
[20:20] <nucc1> kind of a neat way to keep things organised.
[20:20] <nucc1> now, i just go to a new workspace when i want to start something new
[20:20] <directhex> jesus. upgraded to 12.10 today. i keep seeing random textures float around the screen
[20:20] <AlanBell> workspaces ended up quite good in shell, they are vertical and it adds more as you need them
[20:20] <nucc1> ^^
[20:20] <ali1234> AlanBell: elementary does that too
[20:21] <AlanBell> I don't much like the 2d grid of workspaces in unity
[20:21] <ali1234> except horizontally
[20:21] <ali1234> not that it makes a difference
[20:21] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: I like how you can get to every space with just one key combo
[20:21] <AlanBell> vertical or horizontal is fine for me, I liked the cube
[20:21] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: instead of having to scroll past something else every time
[20:21] <AlanBell> ok, I understand that logic
[20:22] <nucc1> personally, i trade brain memory for time.
[20:22] <nucc1> i scroll through every workspace in turn looking for the one i want
[20:22] <nucc1> i hate remembering stuff
[20:23] <shauno> Azelphur: a lot of them will do better than you'd think.  we have a site with a note on their UPS to say that it's illegible for factory warranty because it was fully submerged during katrina.  but it's still running.  (and these are large-scale systems, not rackmount units)
[20:24] <Darael> My laptop has a numpad, so I use a 3x3 workspace grid and bind them to ctl+alt+<number-in-appropriate-position>.  Then I have certain things that always go on certain workspaces so if there's anything I need to find there are fewer to look through.
[20:24] <Azelphur> shauno: damn
[20:24] <Darael> And I stick expo on ctl+alt+0 just in case.
[20:26] <nucc1> my favourite thing in ubuntu actually is the fonts (nicely anti-aliased) and the software centre.
[20:27] <nucc1> i like how they are turning it into a proper app store. something that linux pioneered, but Apple monetized
[20:27] <AlanBell> yeah, I like the font, the webapps stuff, the HUD (if it stops stealing alt from VMs), lenses
[20:28] <AlanBell> I am not interested in the software centre really, I might get interested if they do some kind of group management thing with it
[20:28] <AlanBell> so you can purchase and deploy an application for multiple computers
[20:29] <nucc1> if they make the ubuntu one thing a proper backup solution, with reasonable prices for storage, then that too.
[20:29] <nucc1> AlanBell, well, i see what you mean
[20:40] <ali1234> AlanBell: like when you go on google play and click "send to my phone" and it's already on your phone in seconds
[20:40] <ali1234> i love that feature
[20:40] <AlanBell> that is cool
[20:40] <diplo> Writing my first wordpress theme :)
[20:40] <AlanBell> but I was thinking more of an office IT scenario
[20:41] <diplo> Any tips from anyone ?
[20:41] <ali1234> and speaking of the ubuntu font i found it in the weirdest place
[20:41] <AlanBell> kind of landscape integration with the software center probably
[20:41] <nucc1> AlanBell, that is not exactly an end-user feature though :p
[20:41] <nucc1> ali1234, the font is in google fonts. many people use it, i believe
[20:42] <AlanBell> nucc1: well depends on what your target market is
[20:42] <AlanBell> it isn't a feature for the "teenagers at home" market certainly
[20:42] <nucc1> AlanBell, i would like for ubuntu to remain a user-centric rather than an enterprise-focused product
[20:42] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: but enterprises bring in the ships of money
[20:42] <ali1234> ubuntu font is used in a fairly common bitcoin logo
[20:42] <AlanBell> yeah, most stuff is consumer focussed
[20:42] <ali1234> i don't know why...
[20:43] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, well, that was before users were given the option to pay for it
[20:43] <nucc1> in most enterprises, "lync and outlook" are what determine the platform of choice.
[20:43] <AlanBell> if it is consumer focussed there isn't really much opportunity for consultancy around it :)
[20:44] <AlanBell> you get app developers (mostly games and stuff)
[20:44] <AlanBell> and thats it
[20:44] <nucc1> ubuntu is wisely going in the services direction
[20:44] <nucc1> music, storage, and maybe movies :)
[20:44] <AlanBell> services for Canonical only though :)
[20:45] <nucc1> i don't really make a distinction. it makes my life easier :p
[20:45] <nucc1> no canonical, no ubuntu. or at least, a much less exciting ubuntu
[20:45] <AlanBell> sure
[20:46] <AlanBell> but no commercial partner ecosystem
[20:46] <ali1234> you know what occured to me the other day
[20:46] <ali1234> the way we can tell that linux is successful
[20:46] <AlanBell> just canonical doing b2c services
[20:46] <ali1234> it's because of all the people who showed up to tell us we're doing it wrong
[20:46] <AlanBell> yeah, I guess so
[20:47] <nucc1> AlanBell, i've come to believe that linux is too much of a moving target, and that's why the commercial partner ecosystem is scanty
[20:47] <nucc1> ali1234, that is a pretty one-sided picture
[20:47] <ali1234> how is it one sided?
[20:48] <nucc1> the way we're doing it has its joys, but it is a problem when you actually have to get work done
[20:48] <AlanBell> don't think it is really, they don't really want a channel, the target market is consumers via OEMs
[20:48] <ali1234> the way i see it is like this
[20:48] <nucc1> ali1234, that explains why most of the more successful linuxes are pretty much static
[20:48] <AlanBell> I guess they like the apple app store developers and want to build a network like that
[20:48] <ali1234> back in 1993 when linux actually was unusable for the majority of people, nobody cared
[20:48] <ali1234> nobody complained that linux was too hard for them
[20:49] <ali1234> nobody complained that there was too much sexism in open source
[20:49] <ali1234> nobody complained about anything in fact
[20:49] <ali1234> because they were too busy building the future
[20:49] <ali1234> now all the hard work has been done, everyone suddenly wants their fair share
[20:49] <ali1234> now i don't wanna sound like mitt romney
[20:49] <nucc1> lol
[20:49] <ali1234> but this is how you can tell that linux is now established
[20:50] <nucc1> meanwhile, i'm sitting here, with a windows partition because i can't get much work done in linux for one reason or the other.
[20:50] <nucc1> this weekend, my RDP client froze my PC cold.
[20:50] <nucc1> needed a power cycle.
[20:51] <nucc1> of course i booted into windows.
[20:51] <nucc1> i need to recompile vmware modules every week
[20:51] <ali1234> i haven't used a real windows install for nearly 15 years
[20:51] <AlanBell> I don't really have a complaint as such, Ubuntu works fine for me
[20:52] <nucc1> for playing music and browsing the web, it works fine.
[20:52] <AlanBell> it just isn't strategic for the business at all
[20:52] <nucc1> for doing web development, and programming in C, or even Java, it works okay
[20:52] <ali1234> nucc1: you're talking about windows right?
[20:52] <nucc1> surprisingly, i'm talking about all the linuxes i've had to use in the last few years
[20:53] <nucc1> all that "stable" stuff is hogwash.
[20:53] <ali1234> linux has always been superior to windows for software development since day 1
[20:53] <nucc1> i use windows 7 daily too. it's never crashed on me.
[20:53] <ali1234> literally it blows it out of the water
[20:53] <nucc1> i had to log into a VT last night in order to "killall gnome-shell"
[20:54] <ali1234> windows is a sea of incompatible legacy poop
[20:54] <nucc1> rhetoric
[20:54] <nucc1> empty rhetoric.
[20:54] <ali1234> no, it's an absolute fact
[20:54] <ali1234> it's the reason i have not used windows in 15 years
[20:54] <nucc1> i like linux. else i won't be using it. but many of the claims about linux are greatly exaggerated.
[20:54] <ali1234> it simply isn't possible to get a straight answer on anything related to the windows api
[20:54] <nucc1> you can use QT.
[20:55] <nucc1> you can use GTK.
[20:55] <ali1234> no, you can't, because qt relies on windows api
[20:55] <nucc1> wxwidgets etc.
[20:55] <ali1234> maybe you can answer this question. if a network adapter in windows has two IP addresses, and i write a program which listens on a tcp docket, which ip address will it listen on?
[20:55] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: depends on which one you bind to?
[20:56] <ali1234> nope
[20:56] <ali1234> the actual answer is it picks one at random
[20:56] <MartijnVdS> even if you explicitly select one?
[20:56] <ali1234> if you explicitly select <IP_ADDRESS> then yes
[20:56] <nucc1> ali1234, now you see, most developers will sort that stuff out before they ship the software out to the user.
[20:57] <ali1234> there is no way to sort it out, it's simply broken, and even worse, completely undocumented
[20:57] <nucc1> so how does apache work then?
[20:57] <nucc1> on windows?
[20:57] <nucc1> never had no troubles with it
[20:57] <ali1234> simple
[20:57] <nucc1> i'm all ears
[20:57] <ali1234> just don't run it on a machine with mutltiple IP addresses
[20:57] <nucc1> lol.
[20:58] <nucc1> did you know that if you have both wifi and ethernet plugged and connected, linux is unable to route packets properly?
[20:58] <shauno> thanks to ipv6, it's been a while since I've met a machine with one address
[20:58] <nucc1> somehow windows is able to chose one default route
[20:58] <ali1234> lol
[20:58] <nucc1> now that's stuff that I run into frequently.
[20:58] <ali1234> that's not true at all, i do it regularly
[20:58] <nucc1> forgetting to turn off my wifi when i dock my laptop
[20:58] <nucc1> on windows, i can go the whole day without knowing
[20:59] <ali1234> not only does it work, it works completely as you would expect, without any user interaction at all
[20:59] <nucc1> on linux, i know straight away
[20:59] <nucc1> because i lose internet connectivity
[20:59] <AlanBell> nucc1: yeah, I have a feeling we broke something in 12.10 around that
[21:02] <nucc1> ali1234, my flatmate was playing music from is windows laptop to the living room sound system
[21:02] <nucc1> i spent 3 hours trying to get rygel and pulseaudio to do the same
[21:02] <nucc1> wanna guess how i finally succeeded?
[21:03] <ali1234> rygel the upnp server?
[21:03] <nucc1> I got a free app for my android phone  and streamed from my phone instead.
[21:03] <ali1234> i think the problem is you failed to understand basic concepts of how upnp works
[21:03] <ali1234> but, whatever
[21:03] <nucc1> he he he.
[21:03] <nucc1> i don't want to know the nitty gritty of upnp.
[21:04] <nucc1> i would gladly pay for an app that just works.
[21:04] <ali1234> http://www.twonky.com/
[21:05] <nucc1> now tell me, will twonky let me transfer a playing movie to my TV?
[21:05] <ali1234> "i spent 3 hours trying to make my car run on milk. i shouldn't have to know the nitty gritty of combustion engines, it should just work"
[21:05] <ali1234> ^ this is you
[21:05] <nucc1> any audio stream off my laptop to the home theatre?
[21:05] <nucc1> ali1234, very funny. also completely wrong.
[21:05] <nucc1> i got the device to show up in the list of available servers
[21:05] <ali1234> upnp doesn't work like that. at all
[21:05] <nucc1> but never could get the sound to play.
[21:05] <nucc1> now, on my phone, i just installed an app.
[21:06] <nucc1> selected a source, selected a target.
[21:06] <nucc1> i've learnt to choose my fights.
[21:06] <nucc1> that's why i still use linux :p
[21:06] <ali1234> i have also learnt to choose my fights. people like you are the reason i don't ever recommend linux to anyone any more.
[21:07] <nucc1> i'm actually a techie.
[21:07] <ali1234> yeah techies are the worst
[21:07] <nucc1> so no. i'm not your stereotypical dumb windows user.
[21:07] <nucc1> you are blaming me for not understanding upnp/dlna when the software isn't working as it should?
[21:07] <nucc1> bleh
[21:08] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: moving a playing movie from one device to another isn't upnp
[21:08] <nucc1> dlna
[21:08] <nucc1> i just call it upnp
[21:08] <nucc1> cos somehow that name stuck
[21:08] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: what you want is Miracast
[21:09] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, dlna does that too
[21:09] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: dlna has some kind of "browsing" mode, and a "play this stream" mode, but almost nothing supports the second mode
[21:10] <nucc1> yea "play this stream" .
[21:10] <MartijnVdS> Yes.. "this DLNA URL"
[21:10] <nucc1> i mean, on my samsung, i can say "transfer this video to this screen"
[21:10] <MartijnVdS> Woo! Chromebook has shipped
[21:10] <nucc1> on my phone that is.
[21:11] <ali1234> that's the difference between a server and a controller
[21:11] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: sure, but does your playback device support it?
[21:11] <ali1234> rygel is not a controller
[21:11] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, yeap. my tv does. it works all the time. moving videos and music from my phone to my tv.
[21:11] <nucc1> what i wanted rygel+pulseaudio to do was: present what is playing on the local soundcard as a stream on the network
[21:12] <nucc1> then connect to that stream from the home theatre
[21:12] <ali1234> rygel only serves files
[21:13] <ali1234> because it is a server
[21:13] <nucc1> rygel+pulseaudio can serve streams.
[21:13] <ali1234> news to me
[21:13] <MartijnVdS> but not video streams..
[21:13] <nucc1> i wasn't trying to do video.
[21:13] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it can do airplay-like streams using Apple's protocol
[21:13] <nucc1> just music from rhythmbox
[21:13] <nucc1> because the interface on the HT and TV is horrible for anything bigger than 20 files
[21:15] <ali1234> yeah there's some stuff about this on the rygel development page. says it doesn't work
[21:15] <nucc1> interestingly, even browsing what is exported from rygel on the tv and then playing it leads to unbelievable stutter
[21:15] <nucc1> i've not had time to troubleshoot that.
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: over wifi, or wired?
[21:16] <nucc1> all wired.
[21:16] <nucc1> gigabit.
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> Because my TV stutters if I use wifi to stream from my Synology ANS
[21:16] <nucc1> well, the tv probably isn't gigabit.
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> NAS
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> my TV is
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> weirdly
[21:16] <nucc1> cool
[21:16] <ali1234> you can share the individual files on rygel and then use a controller on another device to queue them
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> it's also 300mbit 802.11n dual-band
[21:16] <nucc1> mine's just 100mbps lan
[21:16] <nucc1> and a usb port for wifi
[21:17] <nucc1> which is empty.
[21:17] <ali1234> you shouldn't get stutter when streaming mp3 over wifi
[21:17] <ali1234> more likely it's a codec issue
[21:17] <ali1234> upnp does not specify anything about audio video formats, which is why interop is so poor
[21:17] <nucc1> must be a default setting in the ubuntu rygel
[21:17] <MartijnVdS> or a "live" re-encoding issue with minimal buffer?
[21:17] <ali1234> well, one reason anyway
[21:18] <nucc1> my HT at least plays almost everything, including ogg.
[21:18] <nucc1> its a panasonic.
[21:18] <nucc1> unless rygel has been transcoding the oggs silently
[21:18] <ali1234> yeah but it might not support every possible bitrate
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> my Samsung also plays all the things
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> the PS3 is a lot worse, format-support wise
[21:18] <ali1234> upnp server usually does not transcode but it might
[21:18] <nucc1> yea, but the ps3 does better with video, i've found
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: only .mp4 for me
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> no mkv, only very specific mp4 settings
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> h.264 settings, even
[21:19] <nucc1> yea, most devices won't play mkv through the network
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> also container bits (frame rate, bit rates) must be spot on or you'll get audio at double speed
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> my TV will :)
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> \o/ Samsung
[21:20] <nucc1> generally, rygel does transcoding, and does reasonably well.
[21:20] <nucc1> it only started acting up when i did a 12.10 clean install.
[21:20] <nucc1> maybe i will have time to fiddle with it this weekend
[21:20] <ali1234> seems like 12.10 is broken for everyone
[21:21] <ali1234> i'm glad i didn't install it
[21:21] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, how is the samsung TV's interface?
[21:21] <nucc1> my panasonic is horrible.
[21:22] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: it's OK
[21:22] <nucc1> when browsing a list, it doesn't remember your position in the previous page
[21:22] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: I'd love it to work better with my Samsung phone..
[21:22] <ali1234> there's a samsung app
[21:22] <nucc1> the panasonic app was designed by picasso or something.
[21:22] <ali1234> i think it's just a remote control replacement though
[21:23] <nucc1> they are more concerned with fancy looks than usability
[21:23] <nucc1> and it doesn't even look good. has some useless "retro" styles
[21:23] <nucc1> and "dials"
[21:23] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: that works fine, too
[21:23] <nucc1> imagine that. dials on a touchscreen.
[21:23] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: but it's useless to me, as I have a Logitech Harmony
[21:39] <nucc1> MartijnVdS, i've got a samsung galaxy s3, but i've never seen this miracast thing mentioned any where on thephone
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: Miracast is in Android 4.2, it's the new standard for this kind of thing
[21:40] <nucc1> yea, i saw that, but then i saw that the gs3 is certified too
[21:40] <nucc1> oh well, its not like my tv will magically support it
[21:40] <nucc1> i'm tempted to ditch the gs3 and get the new nexus
[21:41] <MartijnVdS> I'm keeping my current  Nexus
[21:41] <MartijnVdS> (Galaxy Nexus)
[21:41] <nucc1> yea, i wish i had a nexus.
[21:44] <brobostigon> ell, unless i win the lottery tmrw, i doubt i will be able to afford the £500 quid, or so, however much one costs unclocked.
[21:45] <nucc1> an unlocked one is less than £300
[21:45] <brobostigon> ok.
[21:45] <nucc1> https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=nexus_4_16gb
[21:45] <nucc1> £279 for 16GB
[21:45] <nucc1> I reckon samsung will have to drop its own prices soon...
[21:46] <brobostigon> thats actually better than i thought it would be.
[21:46] <MartijnVdS> No devices for .nl :(
[21:46] <nucc1> patience, MartijnVdS :)
[21:46] <MartijnVdS> Well, http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009RF0AQ8 is on its way to me
[21:46] <nucc1> you guys get all the fast internets
[21:46] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: I'll get 100/100 next month
[21:46] <nucc1> just look at that
[21:46] <nucc1> :(
[21:47] <nucc1> i'll keep getting 9/1 next month
[21:47] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: though it might be 500/500 within a year
[21:47] <nucc1> :'(
[21:47] <MartijnVdS> just to annoy the (max 300mbit) cable ISPs
[21:48] <nucc1> you guys even get it symmetric too.
[21:48] <MartijnVdS> nucc1: we get fibre into our homes
[21:49] <nucc1> good stuff, really.
[21:49] <MartijnVdS> So we just get ethernet converters'
[21:49] <MartijnVdS> and then we get the internet on a VLAN and TV on another VLAN
[21:49] <nucc1> he he.
[21:49] <MartijnVdS> (and for some ISPs, voip on a third)
[21:50] <nucc1> i may soon be able to get 40/8 or so soon.
[21:50] <nucc1> FTTC
[21:50] <MartijnVdS> They stopped FTTC rollout when they started FttH rollout
[21:50] <MartijnVdS> and I've been waiting for 2 years(!) now
[21:50] <nucc1> yea, none of that fancy stuff over here :p
[21:50] <MartijnVdS> 15/1 now
[22:08] <tom1210> wlan connection problems ... anyone willing to advise?
[22:09] <nucc1> !ask
[22:11] <tom1210> samsung notebook broadcom chip wlan not connecting ... connects but no dhcp
[22:13] <nucc1> if you assign a manual ip address, does it work?
[22:14] <tom1210> no
[22:14] <nucc1> no? correct ip and netmask and gateway ?
[22:14] <tom1210> it used to work, and still does with live usb
[22:14] <nucc1> hmmm
[22:15] <nucc1> what does tail /var/log/syslog say just after you attempt to connect?
[22:15] <nucc1> you can do:
[22:15] <nucc1> tail -f /var/log/syslog
[22:16] <nucc1> in a terminal, then try to connect see what it says in there
[22:17] <nucc1> i wonder how one would check if all required drivers are loaded
[22:20] <tom1210> nucc1 back
[22:21] <tom1210> sorry i had to disconnect the reatec usb dongle
[22:21] <nucc1> oh. i have join/part messages hidden :p
[22:21] <nucc1> where did i lose you?
[22:22] <tom1210> am trying to get useful tail info ...
[22:24] <nucc1> try dmesg | tail     as well
[22:24] <MartijnVdS> \o/ /var/log/kern.log
[22:24] <nucc1> yea, better idea probably
[22:24] <nucc1> tail /var/log/kern.log
[22:25] <nucc1> tail -f /var/log/kern.log
[22:26] <tom1210> yes .... not easy .... will disconnect the realtek dongle then see what i get brb
[22:28] <Darael> tailf works just as well as tail -f.  For reference.
[22:28] <nucc1> good one
[22:30] <MartijnVdS> does it work when the file rotates?
[22:30] <MartijnVdS> like tail -F?
[22:31] <tom1210> ok nucc1 back
[22:31] <tom1210> i will pastebin those two commands
[22:32] <Darael> MartijnVdS: according to the manpage, no.  But on the other hand it doesn't access the file when it isn't growing, which means if one is monitoring an infrequently-updated log the disk could potentially spin down.
[22:33] <MartijnVdS> I wonder how it does that
[22:33] <tom1210> ucc1 http://pastebin.com/cPYFyB0s
[22:34] <MartijnVdS> ah, inotify!
[22:34] <nucc1> tom1210, is it 7pm where you are?
[22:34] <nucc1> probably 9am
[22:34] <tom1210> http://pastebin.com/xq0cfFG5
[22:35] <tom1210> i am in australia
[22:35] <nucc1> nothing useful there.
[22:36] <tom1210> wonder what that vinagre segfault is
[22:37] <nucc1> vinagre crashed
[22:37] <nucc1> if you run lspci, what does it say your wifi chip is?
[22:38] <tom1210> hmmm i installed vinagre about the time the problems started
[22:38] <nucc1> i doubt they are related.
[22:38] <tom1210> ok
[22:38] <nucc1> were you using vinagre at around 8pm yesterday?
[22:38] <tom1210> 02:00.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4313 802.11b/g/n Wireless LAN Controller (rev 01)
[22:39] <tom1210> its possible
[22:39] <tom1210> i will remove vinagre anyway
[22:39] <nucc1> http://askubuntu.com/questions/207585/wireless-bluetooth-bcm4313-not-working-ubuntu-12-10
[22:40] <nucc1> tom1210, this is probably more relevant http://askubuntu.com/questions/127633/how-do-i-get-a-broadcom-bcm4313-wireless-card-working
[22:40] <nucc1> anthough a bit dated
[22:40] <nucc1> you should first check for restricted drivers
[22:41] <nucc1> try running the restricted drivers manager see if it suggests any installs for you.
[22:43] <tom1210> i will run through that and come back ... thank you nucc1
[22:51] <tom1210> nucc1 ... amazing ... i uninstalled vinagre andit all works again
[22:51] <nucc1> interesting
[22:52] <nucc1> lol. "sorry, ubuntu 12.10 has experienced an internal error"
[22:52] <nucc1> it says nautilus-shell-search -provider crashed
[22:52] <nucc1> all i did was search "vinagre" in the shell overview
[22:53] <nucc1> oh well, i don't notice it missing.
[22:54] <nucc1> hmmm, i'm trying to make libreoffice show a presentation without taking over both my screens
[22:54] <tom1210> i use vnc a lot
[22:54] <nucc1> tom1210, try remmina or so


[00:00] <GrueMaster> sigh.  Oem-config no longer prompts for system name.  Everything defaults to ubuntu-laptop.
[00:01] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: <user>-laptop
[00:01] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: fill a bug for that, we should fix it
[00:01] <GrueMaster> Still.  I now have four systems that think they are ubuntu-laptop.
[00:01] <rsalveti> hahah
[00:02] <GrueMaster> Thank the gods for dhcpd config on mac address.
[00:02] <rsalveti> :-)
[00:06] <dcordes> rsalveti:
[00:06] <dcordes> I can't start anything on the display
[00:06] <dcordes> I am on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-preinstalled/20100827.1/maverick-preinstalled-netbook-armel+omap4.img.gz
[00:06] <rsalveti> do you get at least a mouse pointer?
[00:06] <dcordes> I don't think so. although oem-config worked fine
[00:06] <dcordes> I see no errors in Xorg log about input
[00:07] <rsalveti> hm
[00:07] <rsalveti> try loading X and then some application by hand
[00:07] <rsalveti> just X
[00:07] <dcordes> ok
[00:07] <dcordes> brb (I only have one keyboard)
[00:07] <dcordes> should setup usb net kernel..
[00:09] <dcordes> rsalveti: that worked. I started X and from another terminal ran DISPLAY=:0 netbook-launcher-efl
[00:09] <rsalveti> hm, so at least not a display problem
[00:10] <dcordes> and wow guys this interface is awesome
[00:10] <rsalveti> something is not calling nb-launcher-efl
[00:10] <dcordes> can't wait to shoot a video to show how good it looks on the HD2 !
[00:10] <dcordes> are there gdm logs ?
[00:14] <GrueMaster> I'm seeing the same thing on beagleboard now.
[00:15] <dcordes> GrueMaster: should we open a bug
[00:15] <dcordes> grep -ri launcher-efl /etc/X11/
[00:15] <GrueMaster> yea, if we can figure out the cause.  Looking at .xsession-errors.
[00:15] <dcordes> somebody ate the corret session script ? :)
[00:17] <GrueMaster> Seems clutter is trying to run.
[00:21]  * GrueMaster would rather be golfing.
[00:21] <persia> This is with a jasper-initialised system?  The session correction was in jasper last I checked.
[00:21] <GrueMaster> still is.  Not sure what got foobarred.
[00:22] <GrueMaster> I ran the fix manually.  Will see what happens after reboot.
[00:26] <GrueMaster> wonderful.  reboot and it now can't find the root partition.
[00:27] <dcordes> Window manager error: Unable to initialize Clutter.
[00:27] <GrueMaster> Yea, that's what I said.
[00:28] <GrueMaster> Try running "sudo /usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session une-efl"
[00:28] <dcordes> GrueMaster: Just confirming ;)
[00:28] <rsalveti> lots of updates on clutter side
[00:28] <rsalveti> probably the cause
[00:29] <GrueMaster> On the image after pre-inst?  Jasper should be overriding that.
[00:31] <GrueMaster> weird.  somehow the uuid for root changed.  That or jasper screwed up.
[00:31] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: hm, it shoudn't
[00:32] <rsalveti> otherwise you'll not be able to mount rootfs
[00:32] <dcordes> !625591
[00:32] <ubot2> Factoid '625591' not found
[00:32] <GrueMaster> Yea, I know.  But I am staring at a system that has a different uuid for rootfs as what is in boot.scr
[00:32] <dcordes> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/625591
[00:32] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 625591 in ubuntu "[ARM] ubuntu-netbook xsession broken (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
[00:33] <rsalveti> dcordes: cool, thanks for reporting it
[00:33]  * GrueMaster manually fixes uuid to proper goodness.
[00:34] <rsalveti> I'm out now but will also debug the image later on
[00:34] <dcordes> rsalveti: heh it's time to repair my horrible karma on this channel
[00:34] <dcordes> I will try to help out as good as I can
[00:34] <rsalveti> that's always nice :-)
[00:34] <persia> dcordes, Future note: syntax is like bug #3
[00:34] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 3 in mono (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "Custom information for each translation team (affects: 1) (heat: 2)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3
[00:35] <rsalveti> dcordes: please subscribe "armel" group at arm related issues :-)
[00:35] <rsalveti> then we can quickly check it
[00:36] <GrueMaster> Actually, add armel to the tags and subscribe ubuntu-armel-porters.
[00:36] <rsalveti> sure, forgot about htat
[00:36] <dcordes> sorry, I have seen the tags but how to 'subscribe' ?
[00:37] <persia> On the right "subscribe someone else"
[00:37] <persia> The tag is more important, usually.
[00:38] <persia> (and would be auto-generated if you ran `ubuntu-bug ubuntu-netbook` to file the bug (replace "ubuntu-netbook" with another package if you know better))
[00:38] <dcordes> Ok thanks a lot.
[00:38] <dcordes> persia: Ok next time I will use the ubuntu-bug program
[00:39]  * persia finds it easier than remembering all the details about doing it manually in LP
[00:41] <dcordes> GrueMaster: So you think it is related to uuid or clutter problem ?
[00:42] <GrueMaster> Not sure what the uuid problem is.  Could be just a plbkac issue (I'm juggling 3 images on 4 systems atm).
[00:43] <GrueMaster> Something that would help for testing & reporting issues.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow
[00:43] <dcordes> Thanks that's a useful wiki page
[00:43] <GrueMaster> It's a little dated, but most of it is accurate.
[00:45] <dcordes> How can I make the bug affect a package after reporting ?
[00:45] <GrueMaster> sudo /usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session une-efl seems to have fixed my gdm default session.
[00:46] <GrueMaster> The easiest way is to use ubuntu-bug <packagename>.  After, it is up to members of bug control to triage.
[00:46] <dcordes> Also I can't subscribe to someone else 'ubuntu-armel-porters' LP says it expects a LP id or email address.
[00:46] <dcordes> Yeah I will use that in future. But now that I created this bug manually already it would be nice to fix it.
[00:47] <GrueMaster> Well, since I'm now on bug control, I can do that.  :P
[00:47] <dcordes> :>
[00:49] <Baybal> i can remember running linuxes on my long time dead hp4700
[00:50] <Baybal> i wonder if DanaG1 uses ubuntu or android
[00:51] <adcomp> 'llo ..
[00:51] <GrueMaster> dcordes: Fixed data & confirmed bug 625591
[00:51] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 625591 in jasper-initramfs (Ubuntu) "[ARM] ubuntu-netbook xsession broken (affects: 1) (heat: 10)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/625591
[00:51] <dcordes> Baybal: I bet the 1 is only an extension to the nickname in case the original nickname is in use and does not represent t-mobile g1
[00:51] <Baybal> oh
[00:51] <Baybal> by the way, g1 seem to be a great place to deploy desktop distro on...
[00:52] <dcordes> Baybal: I am working on a phone distro for the G1 :)
[00:52] <GrueMaster> Updated title to be a little more detailed.  bug 625591
[00:52] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 625591 in jasper-initramfs (Ubuntu) "[ARM] ubuntu-netbook defaults to 3D session even after "fix" by jasper-initramfs (affects: 1) (heat: 10)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/625591
[00:53] <dcordes> Baybal: the htcdream (g1) display resolution is not large enough for a full desktop like gnome or so
[00:53] <persia> Ubuntu isn't a "desktop distro", it's just a distro, with lots of flavours.  I wouldn't put any of the -desktop packages on a phone, but there are slighter-weight solutions around.
[00:53] <Baybal> fbpanel + matchbox although worked quite well
[00:53] <dcordes> GrueMaster: thanks a lot !
[00:53] <Baybal> hp4700 had vga screen
[00:54] <GrueMaster> Heh, no problem.  We all have to start somewhere.  And the more eyes we have on the arm stuff, the better it will be in the end.
[00:55] <dcordes> Baybal: many recent smart phones have wvga
[00:56] <Baybal> yea
[00:56] <Baybal> one toshiba pda had it back in 2004 though
[00:57] <dcordes> Baybal: Yeah, the mobile makret has been there. Also see Sharp Zaurus family (VGA touchscreens)
[00:58]  * GrueMaster drools over the Droid X.  HDMI out.
[01:00] <GrueMaster> Well, my eyes are starting to bug out, and it is a nice afternoon/evening.  Cutting out and heading to the links.
[01:01] <dcordes> GrueMaster: Enjoy ! And thanks for the help
[01:01] <Baybal> they have 5" xga in their recent model
[01:19] <DanaG> Baybal: I don't have a smartphone right now.
[01:20] <DanaG> Oh, and that Toshiba AC100 seems interesting... a bummer they phail by using a smartphone OS, without the smartphone apps store, on it.
[10:17] <ogra> 2D session fix uploaded, we should have only one panel with the right applets now (still need to figure out how to get the shutdown applet there, but given that shutdown hangs anyway on bringing down usb0 ...)
[10:18] <persia> Cool.
[10:18] <ogra> was just a copy paste job :)
[10:18] <ogra> (less than 10min including testing, i just couldnt do it without working session)
[10:18]  * ogra vanishes again
[10:19] <persia> Awww....
[17:06]  * dcordes needs to find a way to have onboard popup when text input is expected and have it appear afterwards
[17:06] <dcordes> s/appear/disappear/
[17:06] <dcordes> is it expected no input help appears in oem-config ? I am missing the possibility to show keyboard
[17:11] <GrueMaster> dcordes: I don't think the image is geared towards touch screens yet.   It is mainly derived from the x86 Netbook image.  While we are working on multitouch in a different group, I don't think it will make Maverick, and I know it won't be tested on arm very much.
[17:12] <dcordes> GrueMaster: utouch I have seen it. very interesting
[17:12] <dcordes> GrueMaster: I even have a touchscreen driver with multitouch support
[17:12] <GrueMaster> Drivers exist, yes.  Hardware, not so much.
[17:12] <dcordes> Well I got both
[17:12] <dcordes> Maybe I can help testing
[17:14] <GrueMaster> One thing you can do is file a bug against oem-config for adding touch screen support.  Make sure the bug report is as detailed as possible.  Add me to the subscribers list, and I can triage it and tweak as needed.
[17:15] <dcordes> GrueMaster: Awesome, will do that.
[17:16] <dcordes> I am also a bit worried about evtouch screen rotation. A bug exists for a while but it's not solved yet
[17:17] <GrueMaster> Lack of hardware for developers to work with.  I have a Motorola Droid, which is the same base hw as the beagleboard, but I really don't want to sacrifice my cell phone for development yet.  These cost a lot of $$$.
[17:19] <dcordes> That's what I'm doing htc hd2 is my day to day and development phone :)
[17:44] <dcordes> Awesome now I have working backlight control in ubuntu :)
[19:22] <dcordes> any Utouch contributors present ?
[21:56] <devilhorns> hmm, when setting up an arm environment for qemu via: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RootfsFromScratch , is it normal for the process to stall a very long time w/ libbonoboui2-common ?
[22:48] <lool> devilhorns: probably not
[22:53] <devilhorns> lool, yea, turns out my image was too small for everything
[22:53] <devilhorns> got it sorted out now tho, thanks
[22:55] <dcordes> devilhorns: stumbled across same problem few times with first rootstock attempts
[22:55] <devilhorns> dcordes, hehe :)
[22:55] <dcordes> devilhorns: be aware it is currently impossible to rootstock a full ubuntu image. it will fail installing mono
[22:55] <devilhorns> dcordes, that's ok, just doing arm netbook stuff :) don't need a full desktop image :)
[22:56] <dcordes> devilhorns: I am not sure but I think ubuntu-netbook will install mono as well
[22:57] <devilhorns> ugg, I hope not :)
[22:57] <dcordes> devilhorns: The savest thing is to roostock ubuntu-minimal and do anything else natively
[22:57] <dcordes> devilhorns: That's what I did
[22:57] <devilhorns> dcordes, ok, thanks for the tip :) Seems to be working so far tho...we'll see
[22:59] <dcordes> https://launchpad.net/project-rootstock
[23:00] <dcordes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RootStock/KnownIssues
[23:00] <dcordes> devilhorns: good read
[23:01] <devilhorns> dcordes, k, yea first one is of little use to me, but the Known Issues is good to know, thanks
[23:02] <devilhorns> all this rootfs stuff is a little new for me ... not normally a *buntu user
[23:04] <dcordes> Ok don't hesitate to ask if you got any questitions
[23:05] <devilhorns> thx :)
[23:05] <dcordes> questions even
[23:05] <devilhorns> hehe
[23:12] <persia> dcordes, You ought be able to get onboard to do the right thing: investigate under the accessibility menu.
[23:35] <dcordes> persia: Is it expected to autohide ?
[23:36] <persia> I believe so, as it can take up a chunk of the screen.
[23:36]  * persia enables to check
[23:40] <persia> it doesn&t autohide for me, but there is a mismatch between the onboard display layout and the keypresses sent to my irc client '*
[23:40] <persia> Seems to use a US layout internally, for some reason.
[23:40]  * persia files a bug
[23:44] <dcordes> persia: You think I should file an improvement bug for the autohide ?
[23:45] <dcordes> persia: As an option I thought about using a tiling window manager like matchbox. But that will cut good screen area permanently and I only have 800x480
[23:47] <persia> I'd recommend getting in touch with upstream to make sure they are happy with using it also as a touchscreen base.
[23:48] <persia> They're active folks, but concentrated on accessibility, which may have different driving requirements.
[23:50] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Projects/onBoard/ seems to document some of the ideas they've had to date.  I don't seem to find their mailing list offhand, but you might with a bit of digging.
[23:52] <dcordes> persia: Ok I will contact them. One big improvement over previous versions is the new layout. And in case they really don't aim for touchscreen use, it is still the best option I found so far
[23:56] <persia> Yeah, although the modeswitch buttons are a bit confusing
[23:57] <persia> And I can't think of any good reasons why we shouldn't be collaborating between touchscreen and accessibility stuff: both groups have similar needs (can't use a real keyboard).
[23:57] <persia> And high pixel densitys map well to poor motor control (e.g. using a wand in one's mouth)


[07:04] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL790664b03394: Minor reword] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL790664b03394
[07:04] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALf5467beb723b: Add oxford comma] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALf5467beb723b
[07:05] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALf96151abcd8c: Use correct too] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALf96151abcd8c
[07:06] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL00135356f62e: Remove unneded whitespace] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL00135356f62e
[07:09] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALa61fff2fd558: Add note on what tab completion actually is] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALa61fff2fd558
[07:12] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL08c43c417fbe: Minor reword for clarity on live session] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL08c43c417fbe
 Looks like you received a fairly thorough review @HMollerCl :))
 It wasn't a bad review though.
 yes, but I don't understand why they think is not the same as asked. Just because at this point the wp would be the same for each screen or something else?
 @kc2bez [It wasn't a bad review though.], no, the GUI thing was actually horrible, but it was what Qt Designer made, tried tu create the xml by my own but didn't work. I thought puting it in the code but since there was a .ui is better to keep it there I think.
 I was referring to the tone more than the content I guess.
 jajaja, good point.
 https://phab.lubuntu.me/T24
[16:03] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [Low, Open] Captive Portal Support: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T24
 @tsimonq2 does this necessarily have to be together with nm-tray?
 I would think so.
 Or whatever we have in the tray.
 A simple startup program could do it. We can systemd it to run everytime network is connected.
 Or changed
 Won't even need its own window. Bare minimum. Merging with nm-tray would require to get it a separate window which displays the login page. Coz other network managers give their own gtk windows for logging in. Means more footprint
 In space and memory.
 Also they currently keep it kinda running on the background and give wierd popups sometimes "you are connected" like in elementary or current gnome
 Annoying personally.
 Separate program can handle it using default browser, a small notification ping and a small cron job/systemd
 Also i have bare minimum program ready. If anyone wants to test.
[19:09] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rQTERMWIDGETPACKAGINGf05100dab912: Update symbols] apt-ghetto (apt-ghetto) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rQTERMWIDGETPACKAGINGf05100dab912
 @HMollerCl https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lubuntu-users/2019-December/012459.html
 @tsimonq2 [@HMollerCl https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lubuntu-users/2019-December/012459. …], how can I reply to them?
 @HMollerCl [how can I reply to them?], Tap their email address at the top
 option 1, system is not up to date. option 2 , bug it pops when no update are available. Since 20.04 is in development, it pops a lot ~1 a day.
 Perhaps that should be customizable?
 The nag time :)
 I haven't checked, can you disable it altogether in the autostart?
 Someone will want to, I am sure.
 (Photo, 482x128) https://i.imgur.com/YVx4zJZ.jpg upgNotifier
 you can disable that.
 nag time I think is every hour, but apt is checked once a day
 for non development is ok, cause updates don't com often.
 for development, is really up to you why you wan t to be on development....
 Ok, sounds good. Disabling could be an option for the OP.
 @tsimonq2 [Tap their email address at the top], mmm, it open trojita with an e-mail account I don't want to answer from..
 @HMollerCl [mmm, it open trojita with an e-mail account I don't want to answer from..], Copy the details from that new email to a different new email from a program you do want to use?
 @HMollerCl [for non development is ok, cause updates don't com often.], I think we should work on making this more precise
 there is room for improvement.
 Fair :)
 light years from where we were.
 ^^ for sure
 however, I would like to know which are the user feedback to see what they want to change.
 *some user feedback
 I replied, @tsimonq2 can you look to see if it went through?
 @tsimonq2 bruv I tagged you previously.
 @HMollerCl [I replied, @tsimonq2 can you look to see if it went through?], I haven't seen it yet, it may need mod approval.
 @kc2bez [I haven't seen it yet, it may need mod approval.], you are right, I sw an e-mail with that.
 @The_LoudSpeaker [@tsimonq2 bruv I tagged you previously.], What about?
 @HMollerCl [I replied, @tsimonq2 can you look to see if it went through?], Can do
 @The_LoudSpeaker [@tsimonq2 does this necessarily have to be together with nm-tray?], ^
[22:32] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL22baa4642349: Remove unesecary space] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL22baa4642349
[23:16] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALbb65e353a23d: Reword maximize] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALbb65e353a23d