[00:20] <Makyo> hatch, they don't have infrastructure to deal with it, and have to get home somehow :P
[00:20] <Makyo> rick_h_, http://www.buzzfeed.com/passantino/potentially-catastrophic-ice-storm-bears-down-on-the-south
[00:20] <hatch> Makyo they should have stayed home
[00:21] <hatch> I remember I was in Toronto once and looked at the news and was like .....nope, staying at the office
[00:21] <Makyo> hatch, the city would've shut down in a place where the community would have a hard time with a city being shut down.
[00:21] <hatch> that sounds like a recursive problem
[00:22] <Makyo> hatch, you live in a place with infrastructure to support the city shutting down, right?  You've got the will and the way to stock up on what you need to deal with a snowstorm, whereas the south is lacking both of those.
[00:23] <Makyo> Nevermind the whole problem of local and county level governments fighting with each other and screwing over departments of transportation, as with what happened in Atlanta.
[00:23] <hatch> yeah that's true that's true
[00:24] <hatch> ive been stranded in a car before, it's no fun, definitely not something you want to do if you can avoid it
[00:27] <hatch> now I'm trying to decide if I should buy this humble bundle https://www.humblebundle.com/weekly
[00:30] <hatch> Makyo if you enjoy card games you should check out hearthstone, its actually pretty good
[00:30] <Makyo> I've been hearing good things about it, yeah
[00:30] <Makyo> Ooo, Psychonauts.
[00:30] <hatch> Ive been playing the beta, I haven't spent any $ yet, but so far it's pretty enjoyable
[00:30] <hatch> haha yeah
[00:34] <hatch> heh it just glitched
[00:53] <hatch> Makyo think you'll get your branch landed and mine reviewed tonight?
[00:54] <hatch> I can never remember when your EOD is :)
[00:55] <Makyo> hatch, Was an hour ago, but I'm usually around.  QAing your branch now.
[00:55] <hatch> ohh ok so your EOD is an hour after mine, I can remember that I think :)
[00:55] <hatch> thanks
[01:49] <hatch> Makyo since your branch landed is there a way I can re-trigger the CI in github?
[01:50] <Makyo> hatch, yes, hold on.
[01:50] <hatch> I know I can if it fails the :shipit: CI....but not the pre-shipit....afaict
[01:50] <Makyo> https://github.com/juju/juju-gui/blob/develop/docs/continuous-integration.rst#helpful-tips
[01:51] <hatch> ahh I gota log in and do it manually
[01:51] <Makyo> The value you would use is origin/pr/125/merge
[01:51] <Makyo> Uh, and then add ac omment saying it passes
[01:52] <hatch> ok sounds good
[01:52] <hatch> too bad we can't do a "rerun ci" :) comment
[01:52] <rick_h_> patches welcome :P
[01:53] <hatch> bastard!
[01:53] <hatch> lol
[01:53] <hatch> manually triggereded
[01:54] <Makyo> :repeat_one:
[01:54] <hatch> haha yup
[01:54] <hatch> I gota go shovel my parents driveway soon...ugh it's over 2x as big as mine and mine took 45mins
[01:55] <hatch> so....much....snow
[01:55] <hatch> if we could reduce the http requests made in our CI we could probably cut a HUGE amount of time off of it
[01:56] <rick_h_> yea
[01:56] <hatch> all those 404's and the like
[01:56] <hatch> I wonder why it's so slow
[01:56] <hatch> sauce labs must be throttling it or something
[01:58] <hatch> stackoverflow.... 36M pageviews/day, 334M SQL queries, 23 servers.
[01:58] <hatch> "...strive to maintain 50ms..."
[01:58] <hatch> wowzers
[01:59] <rick_h_> wow, every pageview averages 10 queries?
[01:59] <rick_h_> seems like a lot for that many pageviews. You'd think you could cache/etc some to cut that down
[02:00] <hatch> yeah I'm not sure about that
[02:00] <hatch> it's very odd that they could do 10 queries per pageview and still get a 50ms response time
[02:00] <hatch> heh
[02:00] <hatch> http://nickcraver.com/blog/2013/11/22/what-it-takes-to-run-stack-overflow/
[02:01] <hatch> SQL servers have 384 GB of memory with 1.8TB of SSD storage
[02:01] <hatch> HAHAHA
[02:01] <hatch> 384GB of memory
[02:01] <hatch> how the heck
[02:03] <hatch> 11IIS webservers....they could probably use half if they used nginx :P
[02:27] <hatch___> rick_h_ will ci run with a :shipit: if I had to manually trigger the first test?
[02:27] <hatch___> I ask because it doesn't look like it is
[02:32] <rick_h_> hatch___: yea, :shipit: runs any time regardless just by you hitting it
[02:32] <hatch___> hmm it didn't, I deleted the accepted message in hopes it'll run
[02:32]  * rick_h_ goes to look
[02:32] <rick_h_> the only thing that blocks a shipit is if it has a 'merge request accepted' message already
[02:33] <rick_h_> so yea, it's running right now
[02:33] <rick_h_> you're good
[02:33] <hatch___> it is?
[02:33] <rick_h_> yesa
[02:33] <rick_h_> http://ci.jujugui.org:8080/job/juju-gui-merge/
[02:33] <rick_h_> http://ci.jujugui.org:8080/job/juju-gui-merge/117/
[02:34] <rick_h_> origin/125/head
[02:34] <hatch___> very odd I don't see it
[02:34] <hatch___> http://ci.jujugui.org:8080/job/juju-gui/ in the list on the left
[02:35] <rick_h_> right, there's two jobs
[02:35] <rick_h_> one for pull request tests
[02:35] <rick_h_> and one for the merge/shipit tests
[02:35] <rick_h_> they're different because the merge one triggers the api to merge if it succeeds
[02:35] <hatch___> ohh shoot then it was probably running already
[02:35] <rick_h_> while the test one does not, it's pushing back that the tests passed to the pull request
[02:35] <rick_h_> yes
[02:35] <hatch___> my bad
[02:35] <rick_h_> all good
[02:35] <hatch___> I hope it doesn't merge it in twice now
[02:35] <rick_h_> it'll handle/blow up itself
[02:36] <rick_h_> no, it'll be cool
[02:36] <hatch___> oh good good
[02:36] <hatch___> phew
[02:36] <hatch___> :)
[02:39] <hatch___> well now I know
[02:40] <rick_h_> yea, everything has the two jobs. normal and -merge
[02:41] <hatch___> kind of makes sense
[02:41] <hatch___> I just never thought of it before
[02:41] <rick_h_> hmm, failing IE tests?
[02:41] <rick_h_> hatch___: looks like there's an IE issue with your branch
[02:41] <rick_h_> see https://saucelabs.com/jobs/12ebdad9a20a429a96f161842e9157d0
[02:41] <rick_h_> hatch___: mess with it tomorrow
[02:42] <rick_h_> it's way past EOD, get out of here
[02:42] <hatch___> yup thanks
[02:42] <hatch___> haha i'm playing hearthstone as well
[02:42] <rick_h_> k, cool then
[02:42] <hatch___> looks like i'm gona lose this match
[02:42] <rick_h_> you can blame me :)
[02:43] <hatch___> lol
[10:00] <frankban> morning dimitern: I see that the charmsHandler parses the revision file in order to fetch the "bundle" revision (falling back to an obsolete meta.revision). How is the case where no revision file is present handled?
[10:00] <dimitern> frankban, morning, in a meeting - will reply a bit later
[10:01] <frankban> dimitern: cool thanks np
[10:08] <frankban> ok so I guess the logic is in PrepareLocalCharmUpload. I guess revision is what found in the revision file or 0. Then if revision <= the max revision found in the db for that charm id, revision is set to maxRevision + 1
[11:04] <dimitern> frankban, sorry, i'm back
[11:04] <dimitern> frankban, yeah, the revision from the charm is respected, but at the end an unique one is chosen, depending on what charms are in state already
[11:05]  * dimitern wonders when exactly did the revision file got obsolete
[11:38] <frankban> heh, thanks dimitern
[14:26] <hatch> rick_h_ so IE11 gives totally different failures than IE10, so I'm downloading Win 8 with IE10  now
[14:27] <rick_h_> hatch: k
[14:28] <hatch> it looks like the failures are because the version of YUI we use doesn't consider IE11 IE
[14:28] <rick_h_> lovely
[14:28] <hatch> hopefully an upgrade will fix that
[14:28] <rick_h_> well, that'll be part of updating for IE11 work.
[14:28] <rick_h_> yea
[14:29] <hatch> although I'm starting to get a little skeptical of YUI's development :/
[14:29] <rick_h_> how so?
[14:29] <rick_h_> they were updating promises in the last sprint. I figured you'd be happy :)
[14:31] <hatch> well it seems to me that they are focusing more on Pure and other Yahoo projects than YUI
[14:31] <hatch> the progress on YUI has been very slow
[14:42] <hatch> modern.ie is pretty cool....just finished downloading the image...will see if it works :)
[14:43] <hatch> I remember the hoops we had to jump through to run various versions of IE
[14:44] <benji> hatch: bad news: I think we have to scrap the "drop a directory to deploy a charm" feature.
[14:45] <benji> It turns out that browser's completely ignore symbolic links when dropping files, which many charms depend on (the GUI charm included)
[14:45]  * hatch ragequits
[14:45] <rick_h_> ah crap
[14:46] <hatch> benji what if you symlink a zip file and just drop it? What happens then?
[14:47] <benji> hatch: I don't understand the question.  Do you mean create a zip with a symlink in it?
[14:47] <hatch> benji no I mean I'm wondering if it's an issue with the folders or an issue with symlinks in general
[14:47] <hatch> so take a .zip of a charm and create a symlink to it
[14:48] <hatch> drag and drop that symlink, what does it do
[14:48] <benji> hatch: I don't know what that does, but I don't see how it applies to this situation.
[14:49] <hatch> well in order to file a bug with chrome we need to know if it's actually an issue with chrome or an issue with the zip lib
[14:50] <benji> hatch: it is chrome, when a directory containing symlinks is dropped the symlinks are not represented in the datastructures (only real files and directories)
[14:50] <hatch> cool the modernie vm's work
[14:50] <hatch> ohh ok cool, can you file a bug with chrome or would you like me to?
[14:50] <benji> (and I just tried dropping a symlink to a zip and it is the same as dropping the zip itself)
[14:51] <hatch> ohh ok so it's a combination of a directory and symlinks then
[14:51] <benji> well, not quite; I suspect if you drop a group of files and symlinks only the files will be recognized
[14:52] <benji> for the link-to-zip example the browser never sees the symlink, just the contents of the zip
[14:52] <hatch> would you be able to do a bit of qa'ing and create a detailed bug report?
[14:53] <hatch> it's a story I think we would still like so we need them to fix it :) or at least monitor the status of the issue
[14:54] <rick_h_> is this true of ff as well benji ?
[14:54] <benji> rick_h_: FF doesn't support enough of these new-ish APIs for this to work anyway
[14:54] <benji> IOW, I don't know :)
[14:55] <hatch> rick_h_ I am able to reproduce the test failure in Win 8 IE10 so will get on fixing it now
[14:55] <rick_h_> benji: ok, then yea. Let's hit the stop button if we cna't support it.
[14:55] <rick_h_> benji: not sense spinning our wheels
[14:55] <rick_h_> benji: but thanks for taking it through and getting it as far as we can. It would be something cool to have. We should note where things stopped for future reference
[14:56] <hatch> wait, I get a totally different test failure
[14:56] <hatch> ugh
[14:56] <hatch> do we know what OS sauce labs IE is running on?
[14:56] <hatch> er
[14:56] <hatch> 7 or 8
[14:56] <rick_h_> hatch: win7 and ie10
[14:56] <hatch> damn
[14:56] <rick_h_> hatch: I think, check the browser.py file in tests
[14:57] <rick_h_> frankban: how does this effect your current/recent work? ^
[14:57] <benji> hatch: your hunch was a good one; dopping a set of files, one of which is a symlink works (i.e., the symlink is represented in the browser as a file with the contents of the pointed-to file), but when the directory containing those files is dropped, the symlink is missing from the set of files
[14:57] <benji> I'll look to see if this bug has been reported in Chrome yet.
[14:57] <hatch> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list
[14:58] <hatch> benji thanks.....this is unfortunate :(
[14:59] <frankban> rick_h_: reading
[15:00] <rick_h_> hatch: benji frankban time for a hangout? I want to chat if there's another way to cover the use case
[15:00] <benji> rick_h_: sure
[15:00] <rick_h_> hop in the staundup hangout please
[15:00] <frankban> rick_h_: sure, just a minute to read
[15:02] <frankban> rick_h_: ready when you want
[15:02] <rick_h_> frankban: cool, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/calendar/Z2FyeS5wb3N0ZXJAY2Fub25pY2FsLmNvbQ.j0rk5d371ph8331ijtf48t2uj0?authuser=1
[15:03] <rick_h_> benji: ^
[15:06] <benji> rick_h_: my machine froze, one second
[15:18] <hatch> *sigh* IE testing
[15:19] <hatch> test broken....put a debugger.....test fixed
[15:19] <rick_h_> if it wasn't for IE you wouldn't be able to be a Web Development Engineer, just "Web Dude"
[15:20] <hatch> lol...actually I'm a Web Master, I've had enough years experience copying files via FTP and doing folder based version control
[15:20] <hatch> haha
[15:22] <rick_h_> hatch: if you're getting different errors in win7 and win8 we should try to see if we can make both pass ok
[15:22] <rick_h_> maybe add both to CI if they're acting that different for IE10 :/
[15:23] <hatch> rick_h_ yep I'm fixing the test in Win 8 right now....it's a stupid failure, the widget positioning is off, so I am changing the assertion to a range
[15:23] <rick_h_> ugh, how far off? e.g. does it look right in real life to the user?
[15:23] <hatch> we need to get in touch with someone to find out which version if IE we are supporting
[15:23] <hatch> 2px-ish, it changes every run
[15:23] <rick_h_> k, well right now we're doing IE10
[15:24] <rick_h_> that should be regardless of win7 or 8
[15:24] <hatch> yeah, I'm not even sure you can get IE10 in windows 8 though
[15:24] <hatch> I think it auto updates
[15:24] <hatch> at least it did for me...
[15:25] <hatch> I'm fixing the test regardless....but curious
[15:25] <rick_h_> ugh, ok. Yea, I mean the goal is to get IE11 support in, but it's after wrapping up local charms/relation lines, and starting inspector on left
[15:50] <makyo_> jujugui call in 10
[15:50] <Makyo> Much better.
[15:51] <hatch> :)
[15:51] <rick_h_> Makyo: can you run the standup? I've got the IS meeting and will try to hop over before the end
[15:53] <Makyo> Yep, sure thing.
[15:58] <hatch> jujugui call in 2
[15:59] <hatch> benji ^
[16:08] <hatch> benji when you get around to filing that chrome bug can you link it plz so I can star it
[16:08] <hatch> that's two chrome bugs in a week....jeesh!
[16:08] <hatch> we are bleeding edge yo!
[16:09] <hatch> Makyo I ended up picking this up https://www.humblebundle.com/weekly last night
[16:09] <rick_h_> standup over?
[16:09] <hatch> rick_h_ yup, redo?
[16:10] <rick_h_> hatch: naw, I'll add notes for tomorrow.
[16:10] <hatch> ok
[16:10] <hatch> rick_h_ did you create the juju-core card in Project 1?
[16:11] <rick_h_> hatch: yes, it's realted and we're not tracking any more. It's something we can work on/do
[16:11] <rick_h_> so moved it out of tracking and into todo
[16:11] <hatch> ok it's not supported by juju-core right now
[16:11] <rick_h_> right, the card is to add support
[16:11] <rick_h_> to core
[16:11] <hatch> ok I'll put frankban's head on it
[16:12] <rick_h_> well if benji or someone else wants to hack on it they can :)
[16:13] <hatch> oh I didn't know anyone else had enough juju-core experience
[16:13] <rick_h_> meh, we've got to learn and get more
[16:13] <hatch> we should have a lesson to get more of us up to speed
[16:14] <hatch> a 1 week sprint in Hawaii to get us up to speed on it :P
[16:14] <rick_h_> heh, feel free to submit it...on a day while I'm away on holiday
[16:14] <hatch> lol
[16:17] <jcastro_> rick_h_, https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-gui/+bug/1279873
[16:17] <_mup_> Bug #1279873: Bundle deploy instructions still refer to beta PPA <juju-gui:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279873>
[16:18] <jcastro_> we need this one fixed before EOM too
[16:18] <rick_h_> jcastro_: yea, I'm waiting to see if it's in universe or gets to main
[16:18] <rick_h_> jcastro_: because in trusty the stable ppa isnt' needed any more either right?
[16:19] <rick_h_> guess we cna just roll with it
[16:19] <jcastro_> correct
[16:20] <jcastro_> it won't matter if it's in main/universe for the end user as both are enabled by defaulty
[16:20] <jcastro_> just not installed by default
[16:20] <rick_h_> k
[16:28] <hatch> wow time warner is buying comcast? wow yet another huge hit to net neutrality
[16:34] <hatch> http://gizmodo.com/the-40-best-tweets-about-the-comcast-time-warner-cable-1522034013 lol
[16:41] <benji> git help: I tried "git push juju archived-drag-and-drop-directory-to-deploy-charm" to push my branch to the main project but it complained about the branch name (error: src refspec archived-drag-and-drop-directory-to-deploy-charm does not match any.)  Any ideas?
[16:42] <hatch> benji did you create the branch first?
[16:43] <hatch> git push origin current_branch:refs/heads/branch_to_create
[16:43] <hatch> that's what grb runs to create the remote branch
[16:43] <benji> hatch: nope; something like "git branch juju NAME-OF-BRANCH"
[16:43] <hatch> but for you origin will be your fork (likely)
[16:44] <rick_h_> origin == juju
[16:44] <hatch> yeah that won't create the remote branch
[16:44] <benji> "git push juju current_branch:refs/heads/archived-drag-and-drop-directory-to-deploy-charm" results in the same error
[16:45] <rick_h_> git push
[16:45] <hatch> git push <remote-name> <local-branch-name>:<remote-branch-name>
[16:45] <rick_h_> git push  <REMOTENAME> <LOCALBRANCHNAME>:<REMOTEBRANCHNAME>
[16:45] <benji> ah, push; trying that
[16:45] <rick_h_> benji: ^
[16:45] <hatch> :D
[16:45] <rick_h_> https://help.github.com/articles/pushing-to-a-remote
[16:45] <hatch> apparently the new Windows 7 vm I just started thinks that I have an HP printer
[16:46] <hatch> I wonder if I send pictures to it where they will get printed out too
[16:46] <hatch> lol
[16:46] <benji> that worked; thanks guys
[16:46] <hatch> :) np, git is an odd duck
[16:46] <hatch> but you can pretty much do whatever you want if you know the commands hah
[16:48] <benji> I continue to belive that git has more power than I want.
[16:48] <benji> oh, and the UI sucks
[16:48] <hatch> true....and true
[16:48] <hatch> although...git is just a db....so it really needs an ORM....like GRB (which I use)
[16:48] <hatch> er....ORM-like-tool
[16:48] <rick_h_> benji: it gets to be like vim, you find the 11% you use
[16:49] <hatch> 11%? That's pretty specific :)
[16:49] <benji> except that I like power in my editor
[16:49] <benji> hatch: he thinks internally in fractions and converts to percentages for presentation; he uses 1/9th of vim
[16:50] <hatch> haha
[16:51] <hatch> rick_h_ u so smart
[16:52] <hatch> son-of-a, I get no failures in WIn 7 IE10
[16:52] <hatch> well I'll push my changes and see what happens
[17:14] <rick_h_> jujugui machine view run through with UX 8:30am est tomorrow if anyone can/wants to make it
[17:15] <hatch> oh balls that's early
[17:15] <hatch> what's the current time in EST?
[17:15] <rick_h_> 12:14
[17:15] <hatch> (as a international company we should really deal in UTC)
[17:15] <rick_h_> yea, we should but I fail
[17:15] <hatch> ok 7:30 for me, not so bad, I thought it was 2H
[17:15] <rick_h_> I've got to learn
[17:15] <hatch> haha so'k I'll let it pass.....this time
[17:15] <rick_h_> heh
[17:15] <hatch> rick_h_ send me an invite i'll be there
[17:16] <rick_h_> hatch: rgr
[17:31] <hatch> wth I think sauce labs is broken or something
[17:31] <hatch> incredibly frustrating
[17:33] <rick_h_> hatch: port forward and run make test-server locally and use the 'start a sauce instance' to debug from sauce?
[17:33] <hatch> rick_h_ do you know how I may run our unit tests using sauce labs on IE 10?
[17:33] <hatch> heh
[17:33] <rick_h_> hatch: :)
[17:33] <hatch> are there docs somewhere?
[17:33] <rick_h_> no, they're kind of custom
[17:33] <rick_h_> hatch: I use https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/sauce-launcher/mmcebionhdleomnkegjcoadpghnmcebl
[17:34] <rick_h_> and launch a sauce instance of the right machine type
[17:34] <rick_h_> then in that remote window go to http://yourhomeip:8888 (you setup port forward from your router to your dev machine)
[17:34] <rick_h_> and you can control the sauce machine and run the tests/debug your local running instance
[17:35] <hatch> ohh yeah that's not going to work unfortunately....my router is a pos and won't let internal connections no matter what I do
[17:35] <rick_h_> hatch: then run it from an ec2 instance?
[17:35] <rick_h_> or something
[17:35] <hatch> maybe I can spin up a ec2 instance
[17:35] <rick_h_> :)
[17:35] <hatch> ugh I hate it when tooling gets in my way
[17:35] <rick_h_> just remember in ec2 you have to expose the port in the security group
[17:35] <rick_h_> time to router upgrade
[17:37] <hatch> it's also the modem
[17:37] <hatch> no can do
[17:37] <hatch> hmm it's not accepting the juju-gui creds from the wiki
[17:37] <rick_h_> hatch: right, what I do is set it up to send all traffic thorugh and put my own router right inside the one given to me
[17:37] <hatch> ohh I see do a DMZ to your own router
[17:37] <hatch> yeah I should do that
[17:38] <rick_h_> hatch: yea, I don't trust their routers they make me have
[17:38] <hatch> well mine is definitely a pos
[17:40] <hatch> great the sauce launcher thing won't accept the creds
[17:40]  * hatch flips desk
[17:40] <rick_h_> hmm, sec
[17:41] <hatch> it's ok i'm doing it through the actual sauce labs website
[17:41] <hatch> now
[17:42] <rick_h_> k
[17:42] <rick_h_> yea, seems it doesn't like the password from the extension now
[17:58] <hatch> wow ec2 really likes to hide what the username is on these instances hey?
[17:58] <rick_h_> ubuntu
[17:58] <rick_h_> always ubuntu?
[17:58] <rick_h_> or you mean the dns names?
[18:00] <hatch> rick_h_ well their documentation says ec2-user
[18:00] <hatch> apparently it's different for every distro, but there is no documentation to that effect
[18:13] <hatch> *sigh* cannot connect to the ec2 instance
[18:15] <rick_h_> hatch: you opened the port?
[18:15] <rick_h_> in the security group?
[18:15] <hatch> yeah it seems the entire instance crashed
[18:15] <hatch> it kicked me out of ssh
[18:16] <hatch> and now I can't get back in lol
[18:16] <hatch> today is not my day haha
[18:17] <hatch> ok trying with a new image
[18:17] <hatch> 3rd time is the charm!
[18:19] <rick_h_> hatch: you know there's official ubuntu images you should use right?
[18:19] <rick_h_> http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/locator/ec2/
[18:19] <hatch> I just picked 12.04 from the list in aws
[18:20] <hatch> but very cool
[18:20] <hatch> I didn't know about that list
[18:20] <rick_h_> yea, we put out official ones that always have the same setup (thus always ubuntu user) and usch
[18:20] <rick_h_> such
[18:21] <hatch> ok finally got it
[18:21] <rick_h_> yay
[18:21] <hatch> now to sauce lab
[18:21] <rick_h_> Makyo: you're on the databinding card?   Yeah
[18:21] <rick_h_> cool
[18:22] <rick_h_> Makyo: is this the last card?
[18:22] <hatch> rick_h_ the tests pass....
[18:22] <rick_h_> hatch: they don't run that fast :P
[18:22] <hatch> it's well past the ones which failed
[18:23] <hatch> hmm ok well I guess I can trigger another jenkins run and see if it works
[18:23] <rick_h_> hatch: ugh ok. so you've got a {'platform': 'Windows 7', 'version': '10'}, selenium instance passing on your branch?
[18:23] <rick_h_> is it somtehing to do with prod vs debug then?
[18:23] <Makyo> rick_h_, maybe.  There might be a clean-up branch with a few small things, but if needed, we can release the feature flag before then.
[18:24] <rick_h_> Makyo: k, I'm going to move it to maint then so I can start adding cards in here today/tomorrow for the machine view/inspector stuff if that's cool?
[18:24] <hatch> hmm maybe it's a prod vs debug thing
[18:24] <Makyo> rick_h_, Yep!
[18:24] <rick_h_> Makyo: thanks!
[18:25] <hatch> trying prod
[18:28] <hatch> ok prod passes as well
[18:29] <hatch> rick_h_ https://saucelabs.com/tests/340a9b1951a649a1957f624555cc4254 see 100% IE10 WIn 7
[18:29] <hatch> I'm out of ideas now
[18:29] <hatch> :)
[18:29] <rick_h_> hatch: ok, so final thing that'll rely on timing :)
[18:30] <rick_h_> hatch: trigger build, watch when it starts the IE tests and outputs the url to the console Starting unit tests against IE
[18:30] <rick_h_> hatch: and go to the url on the CI server
[18:30] <rick_h_> hatch: http://ci.jujugui.com:8888/test/index.html
[18:31] <hatch> well ok...but why? We already know it fails because you can see in the video that there is the error
[18:31]  * rick_h_ gets the popcorn to watch it
[18:31] <rick_h_> hatch: meh, yea I was thinking your's is working but it's not different
[18:32] <hatch> I will though, maybe it will give SOME indication
[18:32] <hatch> heh
[18:32] <hatch> maybe it's loading a different version of IE or something
[18:33]  * rick_h_ goes to look at your diff to look for setHTML bits
[18:37] <hatch> I 'think' the error is coming from the Y.one().append()
[18:37] <hatch> but that should be stubbed out
[18:37] <hatch> and is everywhere else...
[18:38] <rick_h_> 'should be stubbed out'?
[18:38] <hatch> yeah, like changed for a stub method
[18:40] <rick_h_> append shouldn't call setHTML though. Looks like it uses addHTML
[18:40] <hatch> yeah that makes more sense doesn't it? hah...that's all I had as far as ideas where setHTML comes from
[18:40] <rick_h_> if (node.nextSibling) { // IE errors if refNode is null
[18:41] <rick_h_> try to go about that a diff way
[18:41] <rick_h_> add it to a diff node, not body
[18:41] <rick_h_> isn't there a container or anything we can use?
[18:41] <hatch> well it shouldn't be doing any of that
[18:41] <hatch> I stubbed out Y.one with a new object with an append() function
[18:42] <hatch> so it shouldn't be actually 'appending' anything
[18:42] <hatch> or one()ing for that matter
[18:42] <rick_h_> hmm, worth a debug then I guess.
[18:42] <rick_h_> to trace the call in the test
[18:42] <rick_h_> why would you stub out Y.one? I don't follow
[18:43] <hatch> shhh watching movie
[18:43] <hatch> ;0
[18:43] <hatch> :)
[18:43] <rick_h_> heh
[18:46] <hatch> apparently it was a schrodinbug the act of watching it caused it to change....and pass
[18:47] <hatch> ugh
[18:47] <hatch> rick_h_ quick hangout I'll explain the Y.one stubbing?
[18:47] <rick_h_> hatch: k, yea I've got a couple of ?
[18:47] <hatch> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/76cpi0qie5fr86lftidmcjfgcg?hl=en
[19:12]  * hatch remembers to go shut his ec2 instance down
[19:12] <rick_h_> good call
[19:13] <hatch> well now the decision....what router to buy
[19:13] <hatch> is there a 'popular' one these days? lke the ol WRT54g
[19:38] <marcoceppi> rick_h_: hey, so, docstrings, how do I parse them for like documenting methods and classes in python?
[19:38] <marcoceppi> i found docutils, but it's all like rst2html
[19:39] <rick_h_> marcoceppi: hmm http://sphinx-doc.org/ext/autodoc.html ?
[19:40] <rick_h_> marcoceppi: there's some other javadoc like tools, but usually just use sphinx for docs and use autodoc
[19:40] <marcoceppi> ah, this looks like it
[19:40] <rick_h_> honestly, I don't tend to generate just api docs of the code apart from the code
[19:40] <rick_h_> benji: ^ ?
[19:40] <rick_h_> have any magic thing you like for that?
[19:41] <marcoceppi> I just don't want to document twice
[19:41] <rick_h_> yea
[19:41] <marcoceppi> once, in code, run make doc, then you're done
[19:41] <rick_h_> I find the two docs tend to be different. API docs aren't usually useful for users in any way. They need more full sentence type material that's structured by use vs by code module
[19:42] <rick_h_> and devs are going to be in the code anyway, or at least able to run help(somemodule) in an interpreter
[19:42] <rick_h_> but yea, check out autodoc and see if that helps.
[19:43] <benji> I don't really like structured function/method/class documentation so I don't know much about the options available for Python.  You can't go wrong with sphynx though.
[19:43] <benji> Here are some API documentatin tools: https://wiki.python.org/moin/DocumentationTools#Automatic_Python_API_documentation_generation_tools
[19:47] <marcoceppi> benji: rick_h_ thanks
[20:24] <hatch> benji thanks for making that chrome bug...starred
[20:24] <benji> np
[20:25] <hatch> http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2014/02/11/first-look-at-cockpit-a-web-based-server-management-interface/
[20:47]  * rick_h_ runs away. Have a good one
[20:48] <hatch> cya rick_h_
[20:48] <hatch> hey benji  which tests are you referring to with your current branch?
[20:49] <benji> hatch: the canvas drop handler tests.  There are some truly contorted tests already (that I'm not touching) but in the course of the last branch I had some nice refactorings and tests that I wanted to capture.
[20:49] <hatch> ohh ok, so nothing that I've been working on too that's going to cause conflicts?
[20:50] <benji> I don't think so.
[20:50] <hatch> cool
[21:15] <Makyo> jujugui small review/QA: https://github.com/juju/juju-gui/pull/127
[21:28] <rick_h_> Makyo: done, what's the test ease with the ATTR? The fact that you can set it on init?
[21:30] <Makyo> rick_h_, I can ensure that both the menu is displayed and that the relation  the module believes is being shown in the menu matches the relation that is actually shown in the module.
[22:07] <hatch> rick_h_ """ Error: the string "makeContainer requires a context in order to track containersto cleanup." was thrown, throw an Error :) """ haha thanks for that part :)
[22:12] <rick_h_> hatch: :)
[23:34] <rick_h_> hmm, no huw. Wonder if it's baby time
[23:34] <hatch> hmm yeah he is usually in 1.5h ago
[23:35] <rick_h_> yea
[23:35] <hatch> maybe we can convince him to do some left panel css work while it's sleeping ;)_
[23:38] <rick_h_> hah
[23:38] <hatch> so close to being done this refactor!
[23:38] <hatch> I wrote integration tests for the util class too
[23:39] <hatch> alleviate our concerns of the unit tests being too unity


[16:16] <wrst> wb chris4585
[16:38] <chris4585> thanks wrst
[16:42] <wrst> how are you doing?
[16:53] <chris4585> great, yourself?
[16:57] <wrst> doing well chomping away at some work today
[17:07] <chris4585> nice, I don't have to go into work until later
[17:17] <wrst> that's nice also
[17:31] <chris4585> mhm


[12:24] <j_baer> Any marketing members out there?
[12:24] <gnomefreak> yeah a few
[12:25] <j_baer> Thanks ... I'm on the mail list and  have a couple of questions.
[12:25] <j_baer> How do you post comments to the list?
[12:26] <gnomefreak> j_baer: did you sign up to get them?
[12:27] <j_baer> Yes ... and I am receiving them
[12:27] <gnomefreak> j_baer: if you get teh mailinglist than read the acception email you got it should have the email on it
[12:28] <gnomefreak> hold on let me get you the address
[12:29] <j_baer> Ok, is it "Send ubuntu-marketing mailing list submissions"<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[12:30] <gnomefreak> yes
[12:30] <gnomefreak> make sure you Re: the topic also
[12:31] <j_baer> Great ... What is the turn around once your email has been sent?
[12:32] <gnomefreak> j_baer: did you sign up for digest?
[12:33] <j_baer> I don't know?
[12:33] <j_baer> What is it and how would I do that ?
[12:33] <gnomefreak> j_baer: if you look on that same email it will give you a place to check/change prefferences but if digest it should be in a few hours
[12:34] <gnomefreak> although it depends ont he traffic on ths list too
[12:34] <j_baer> I'll check ...
[12:36] <j_baer> I guess that is what I am getting "End of ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 9, Issue 16"
[12:37] <j_baer> as this is what is at the end.
[12:37] <gnomefreak> than yep
[12:38] <gnomefreak> digest = less emails but everything is wrapped up in one email
[12:38] <j_baer> There seems to be a lot of activity but the direction of the marketing group
[12:38] <j_baer> appears to be somewhat grey.
[12:38] <j_baer> Is there a marketing/project plan in place?
[12:41] <Burgwork> not really
[12:42] <Burgwork> marketing is also a very diffuse thing
[12:43] <j_baer> That is very true.
[12:44] <j_baer> What brought me here is a forum posting by Sara Vasquez.
[12:45] <j_baer> She is seeking help with a Ubuntu magazine project and I submitted some cover mockups in the Art Talk Forum.
[12:46] <j_baer> But putting a magazine together goes way beyond art work and I would really
[12:46] <j_baer> like it to be as good as Red Hat or Linux magazine.
[12:47] <j_baer> To that end I thought my first contribution should be added some structure to the project as I really feel
[12:48] <j_baer> it needs to be done right.
[12:48] <nixternal> hey j_baer, how are you?
[12:48] <j_baer> Fine, thank you.
[12:48] <nixternal> sorry if my email was really vague, but just in case people are sleeping or busy, i like to reply so people don't think we are ignoring them ;)
[12:49] <j_baer> Always a pleasure :)
[12:50] <j_baer> U know communicating with folks located around the globe is always fun. Never really know when to sleep! {ha!}
[12:50] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/WikiMockup   this is a wiki front page redesign in the works, i have emailed the list, but you all have at it and criticise
[12:50] <nixternal> exactly j_baer
[12:51] <j_baer> let me quickly check it out ...
[12:51] <nixternal> it is a work in progress
[12:51] <nixternal> i stole the watermark design for the documentation team ;)
[12:52] <j_baer> it looks nice ...
[12:52] <nixternal> trying to make it as clean and to the point as possible
[12:52] <nixternal> the current front page lacks, but gives to much info at the same time
[12:53] <j_baer> simple is always good ...
[12:53] <nixternal> that it is
[12:53] <nixternal> i have borrowed ideas from other wiki's around the net
[12:54] <j_baer> Now u will know I am the new kid on the block. How does one edit a wiki page?
[12:54] <nixternal> you need to have an account first of all
[12:55] <j_baer> ok, how do u get an account?
[12:55] <nixternal> once you have an account, it is as simple as pressing "Edit" to get into the editor itself
[12:55] <nixternal> you know...i believe it uses the account from https://launchpad.net
[12:55] <j_baer> That's great as I have a launchpad account.
[12:56] <nixternal> there is a login option on the wiki, just click it and use your launchpad account to log in
[12:56] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpContents   is a good place to check out editing information
[12:57] <nixternal> in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpForBeginners there is a sandbox to play around with editing too
[12:57] <j_baer> ok, I'll check it a try later. Thanks for the tip.
[12:58] <nixternal> no problem
[12:59] <j_baer> If this was my day job I would propose a project to my boss by crafting a charter.
[01:00] <nixternal> hehe
[01:00] <nixternal> charters are good
[01:00] <j_baer> The charter would contain the purpose of the effort ...
[01:00] <j_baer> the goals to be obtained ...
[01:00] <j_baer> and objectives ...
[01:01] <nixternal> there are many goals to be obtained
[01:01] <nixternal> now we need to take all those goals and break them into short and long term
[01:01] <j_baer> In addition the charter would estimate the resources required to get there.
[01:02] <j_baer> Charters are often very specific. For example Create Ubuntu Magazine.
[01:02] <j_baer> The advantage to this method is it keeps everyone focus on the tasks at hand and serves as a
[01:03] <j_baer> good communication tool for those who want to know.
[01:03] <nixternal> good point
[01:04] <j_baer> I would suggest this document be posted on a wiki and any new comer may read it to know
[01:04] <j_baer> what is going on.
[01:05] <j_baer> An another use of the charter is presenting ideas to the council.
[01:05] <nixternal> could a charter be implemented w/o the use of a leader?
[01:05] <nixternal> actually..the charter would act as that leader wouldn't it
[01:06] <nixternal> create the charter by member recommendations that have been approved
[01:06] <j_baer> In my day job all projects are assigned to a project manager and the charter would identify
[01:06] <j_baer> who that person is. It would show the effort has the approval from folks we call sponsors.
[01:07] <nixternal> that is something to bring up at the next meeting
[01:07] <ompaul> stick it on the agenda
[01:08] <ompaul> but to be honest the way to get things done is to put up a spec and seen if it is taken on board
[01:08] <j_baer> Good point. The spec is the second step.
[01:08] <ompaul> the spec is there atm as a method
[01:09] <j_baer> The spec works like a task list and priority assigned.
[01:09] <ompaul> remember it has to live with the existing governece
[01:09] <j_baer> Yes ...
[01:09] <ompaul> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes
[01:10] <ompaul> the tech board does it for software and the CC does it for other things
[01:10] <j_baer> I haven't reviewed all of the pages but I believe that it will.
[01:11] <j_baer> I see the words sprinkled around like milestones and such so I believe the process is being used.
[01:12] <j_baer> In many cases marketing is the first impression folks see of a product and it is very
[01:12] <j_baer> important to make a good 1st impression.
[01:13] <j_baer> When you add to the matrix the fact that folks don't have to do this it is also important to make
[01:13] <j_baer> thins as easy as possible.
[01:14] <j_baer> Using myself as a example my 1st question was "what's going on"?
[01:14] <j_baer> Another issue is deciding what to do.
[01:15] <j_baer> It's very important to tackle the really really important items first and then work the list {spec}.
[01:16] <j_baer> So ... my suggestion for the magazine project is to create a charter. Submit it to the community council for approval
[01:17] <j_baer> and if approved, get started.
[01:17] <nixternal> need to hurry on thta
[01:17] <nixternal> the magazine has been active for a month now, and yet nothing to show the community
[01:18] <nixternal> that is by far, no ones fault, as there has been a lot of change occur recently
[01:18] <j_baer> I understand and my comments are not meant to be critical.
[01:18] <nixternal> but the issue has been brought up to others, that have been wanting to see this happen
[01:19] <nixternal> they may not be meant to be critical, but they need to ;)  need to get that fire lit
[01:19] <nixternal> if you and sara are in kahoots on it, i would say rock and roll since she is the project leader for the magazine
[01:19] <nixternal> interesting
[01:20] <nixternal> Spread Mandriva seems to be up and running
[01:20] <j_baer> I am unclear on the "Spread" initiatives {?}
[01:20] <nixternal> however, spread mandriva sounds kind of, not right...unlike Spread Ubuntu...because in all reality, Ubuntu definately has a definition and a philosophy that is worth spreading
[01:21] <nixternal> it is pretty much just a marketing campaign to Spread Ubuntu really
[01:21] <j_baer> I looked at the Firefox example and I could not find a reason to go back.
[01:22] <nixternal> however, the spread firefox is labeled as one of the most successfull campaigns to date on the internet
[01:22] <nixternal> they made a ton on it, and so did people who helped spread it...the initiative behind the spread firefox campaign was nice
[01:22] <nixternal> i put their link on their page, i get hits, they get hits, i get more hits, they get more hits...and it keeps going like that
[01:23] <nixternal> supposedly reuters said they took a little dent in the market share too...how accurate that info is i don't know
[01:24] <j_baer> U know firefox is a fickle creature. It think it gained alot before the "Spread".
[01:24] <nixternal> im sure it did...but this definately helped...as a majorit of the people i work with had it posted all over
[01:25] <j_baer> Sold .... I'll look again :)
[01:25] <j_baer> Getting back to Ubuntu how should I proceed?
[01:27] <nixternal> proceed on the magazine topic?
[01:27] <j_baer> Yes ...
[01:27] <nixternal> if i read correctly, didn't sara recommend you in a way?
[01:27] <nixternal> or introduce you
[01:27] <j_baer> Yes ...
[01:28] <nixternal> you might want to start with her, and see if she wants to get in on a meeting, or create a meeting
[01:28] <nixternal> i am always around here doing something...i work with marketing team, magazine, doc team, wiki team, bug team, logo teams, laptop teams
[01:29] <nixternal> so i am usually around and a ping will get my attention
[01:29] <nixternal> i sleep from about 3am CST to 9am CST
[01:29] <nixternal> which would be 0800 UTC and 1400 UTC
[01:30] <j_baer> I'll send Sara some emails and see how she feels about my ideas.
[01:30] <nixternal> wb Burgundavia
[01:30] <Burgundavia> indeed
[01:30] <nixternal> you could also nail them to the list, as she scours them and posts info quite a bit
[01:31] <j_baer> Good idea, I'll do that as well.
[01:31] <nixternal> ahhh trouble has joined
[01:31] <j_baer> Has a date been set for the marketing meeting?
[01:32] <nixternal> jul 13
[01:32] <nixternal> 1400 cst
[01:32] <nixternal> 1900 utc
[01:32] <nixternal> you in Texas too?
[01:33] <j_baer> Funny u should ask ....
[01:33] <nixternal> lol
[01:33] <j_baer> I am in Michigan but I am from Houston ...
[01:33] <nixternal> ahhh
[01:33] <nixternal> where at in michigan?
[01:33] <j_baer> Lansing ...
[01:33] <nixternal> ok...im in chicago, but born in benton harbor michigan..so i am familiar
[01:34] <nixternal> meeting will be 1500 for you then
[01:37] <j_baer> small world ...
[01:38] <j_baer> It's been a pleasure chatting but I've got to go ...
[01:38] <nixternal> same here...take care and talk to you soon
[04:47] <adamant1988> hello all
[04:48] <nixternal> hey there
[04:49] <adamant1988> I guess no one replied to my email to the mailing list
[04:49] <nixternal> i haven't seen one
[04:49] <nixternal> when did you send it?
[04:50] <nixternal> your inkscape one?
[04:50] <adamant1988> yeah it was a mockup logo
[04:51] <adamant1988> for Su
[04:51] <nixternal> i downloaded it and have yet to look at it
[04:53] <nixternal> not to shabby..there is a lot of stuff on there
[04:53] <adamant1988> it's not very good (I'm bad with inkscape)
[04:53] <nixternal> i have only opened inkscape to look at your drawings
[04:53] <nixternal> lol
[04:54] <adamant1988> lol
[04:54] <adamant1988> I took everyones advice and made it BIG to start with.
[04:56] <adamant1988> you think it's decent?
[04:56] <nixternal> i do yes
[04:56] <adamant1988> I had another idea but I don't have the time or the patience to draw it
[04:56] <adamant1988> Well, I do, but that's not the point.
[04:56] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/WikiMockup  <- you looked at that yet?
[04:56] <adamant1988> My other idea is the Ubuntu logo "Sprouting wings"
[04:57] <adamant1988> yeah I've seen the mockup
[04:57] <adamant1988> I was directed to it today when I wanted to push a section of the marketing team that collected news about individual projects.
[04:57] <nixternal> ahh
[04:58] <adamant1988> Although I still think collecting and displaying that info on a page is a good idea, others disagree.
[04:58] <nixternal> then with that, there would be subpages for each individual project
[04:58] <nixternal> what info is that?
[04:58] <adamant1988> The thing is, a site like I'm suggesting isn't a good wiki, and it MIGHT be a good blog, but idk.
[04:59] <nixternal> kind of like a developers blog, just for the marketers ;)
[04:59] <adamant1988> Ubuntu is about community right?  So I though why not support community efforts (localized ones) by giving them some publicity.
[04:59] <nixternal> that is the LoCo teams
[05:00] <nixternal> that is why we need a communication pipe with them
[05:00] <adamant1988> When people see that Ubuntu supports the local efforts more and more of them will arise
[05:00] <adamant1988> those efforts are advertising custom made to an area, and we don't have to do any work to do it.
[05:01] <nixternal> you talking like me marketing Ubuntu in Chicago and what not?
[05:01] <adamant1988> yes, or my project for Ubuntu in Elkins, WV
[05:01] <nixternal> #ubuntu-chicago <- that is my Localized Ubuntu marketing campaign
[05:01] <nixternal> We are a new Ubuntu Local Community Team
[05:02] <adamant1988> exactly, but wouldn't it be nice if the larger ubuntu marketing team gave that some publicity?
[05:02] <adamant1988> perhaps other chicago users would find out about it, etc...
[05:02] <nixternal> ahh..i see what you are saying
[05:03] <adamant1988> It's advertising, custom made to an area.  The marketing team just has to 'support it' a picture and a paragraph (maybe some updates) on a webpage.
[05:03] <nixternal> yes that would be very useful for creating localized interest, but i think that falls under the LoCo teams more then us...however, we could pimp them in the Magazine and what not
[05:04] <nixternal> that is why we need to communicate that with the LoCo teams, and task them with that effort, therefore allowing us to go after bigger fish
[05:04] <adamant1988> Well, then we should do that.
[05:04] <nixternal> oh im sure we will...just not tonight..as i believe someone has been talking with the LoCo teams, however I am not 100% positive
[05:04] <nixternal> im doing my effort hardcore with Ubuntu Chicago
[05:05] <nixternal> Joey Stanford is a maniac with his LoCo, as they have grown huge. He got a whole LUG to jump Ubuntu pretty much
[05:05] <adamant1988> I know that my project is a graduation requirement for myself, if I get lots of press in town and and some on the net I can link to that and say "Look, I'm legit here"
[05:05] <nixternal> hmm
[05:05] <nixternal> so it is more about your education that Ubuntu
[05:06] <adamant1988> I'm expanding after school
[05:06] <adamant1988> The way I see it is, they are a captive audience.
[05:06] <nixternal> HAHAH i had to bust your balls on that one ;)
[05:06] <nixternal> b4 someone else did
[05:06] <adamant1988> They don't have a choice but to hear me out, and the more they realize I'm serious the more seriously they'll take me.
[05:06] <nixternal> true
[05:07] <adamant1988> I'm also talking to a local business about setting up a Linux Demo center where people can play with linux and 'try before they buy' so to speak.
[05:07] <nixternal> there aren't that many LoCo teams either in the US
[05:07] <nixternal> 10 at most...and I don't know how many are actually effective or working
[05:07] <nixternal> DC supposedly has a decent setup
[05:07] <adamant1988> I've already obtained 3 older computers to display Xubuntus technology on
[05:08] <nixternal> ok..here is what i am going to do next month at our local computer show
[05:09] <nixternal> i am building a custom system, case mod, hacked up with logo for window...we are going to do 1 Ubuntu, 1 Kubuntu, 1 Xubuntu, and 1 Edubuntu for auction
[05:09] <nixternal> not auction
[05:09] <nixternal> raffle
[05:09] <nixternal> derr
[05:09] <nixternal> so i am hoping my 1000 cd's are here by then..because that is going to draw a huge crowd at this thing
[05:09] <adamant1988> I am hoping that I can get the linux shop idea started up
[05:10] <adamant1988> people here might actually choose to use linux if they were given the choice
[05:10] <nixternal> i have my neices school making me an edubuntu banner made by hand painting
[05:10] <nixternal> they are doing the ubuntu logo with hand prints
[05:10] <nixternal> that is my little campaign..actually Ubuntu Chicago ;)
[05:10] <adamant1988> (of which I'm working on a formal complaint to the local walmart)
[05:10] <nixternal> your walmart doesn't do Linspire?
[05:11] <adamant1988> Nope
[05:11] <nixternal> hmm
[05:11] <adamant1988> they do Intell VIIV and Emachines
[05:11] <nixternal> i don't know if ours does still or what
[05:11] <adamant1988> Linspire has in and out deals with walmart
[05:11] <nixternal> i know they have linspire at fry's
[05:11] <adamant1988> the point is they're not giving users a choice in town
[05:11] <nixternal> cuz i buy those machines
[05:11] <nixternal> my only problem is....i do this custom rig with Ubuntu..and someone takes it, and installs windows on it
[05:12] <adamant1988> what I'm going to do one day is go in and request one of the computers with the price of windows refunded to me.
[05:12] <nixternal> that would chap my a$$ more then anything
[05:12] <nixternal> haha nice
[05:12] <nixternal> walmart is so crooked though..they can't be beat
[05:12] <adamant1988> That should be a nice fight with the managment.
[05:12] <nixternal> they hold the power in their hands
[05:12] <nixternal> just because our GDP would be squat w/o their help
[05:12] <adamant1988> lol yeahh
[05:14] <adamant1988> China would have no economy without them
[05:14] <adamant1988> But regardless, I'm going to stage that little 'protest' action
[05:15] <adamant1988> if they can't refund the price of windows for me then I'll lodge a formal complaint (again) to the company at large.
[05:19] <nixternal> arg
[05:19] <nixternal> sorry about that
[05:19] <adamant1988> it's cool
[05:19] <nixternal> chicago chan got busy for once ;)
[05:19] <adamant1988> haha lol
[05:19] <adamant1988> The elkins WV channel won't be strapped ever.
[05:19] <adamant1988> I'm one of 3 citizens in the town that I know of that uses linux, I'm the only Ubuntu user I know of.
[05:20] <adamant1988> I'm looking to change those numbers though.
[05:24] <nixternal> hehe
[05:24] <nixternal> dude...this is the first time there has been more then me and chanserv in there for more then an hour
[05:24] <nixternal> lol
[05:28] <adamant1988> lol cool
[05:30] <nixternal> lol
[05:30] <nixternal> hiya newz2000
[05:30] <nixternal> by newz2000
[05:33] <adamant1988> lol
[05:33] <adamant1988> yay cups update
[05:34] <adamant1988> *does this mean that my printer will start working*
[05:36] <nixternal> never
[05:36] <nixternal> how come cups works for me, and nobody else?
[05:37] <adamant1988> I have a crap printer
[06:27] <adamant1988> hello again all
[06:32] <nixternal> hello again
[06:32] <nixternal> ubuntu chicago scheduled it's first ever meeting tonight
[06:35] <adamant1988> oh yeah?
[06:35] <adamant1988> awesome :)
[06:35] <adamant1988> I might have to start using open offices project managment software
[07:12] <Burgundavia> http://ubuntu.ca/Edubuntu-casestudy.png
[07:12] <Burgundavia> thoughts?
[07:17] <nixternal> simple and clean..the way i like it
[07:17] <ormiret> Burgundavia: that for the mag or SU leaflets (or other)?
[07:17] <nixternal> looks good Burgundavia
[07:17] <nixternal> other
[07:17] <Burgundavia> neither
[07:18] <Burgundavia> a case study for edubuntu that I am currently writing
[07:18] <ormiret> OK, looks good anyway :)
[07:19] <Burgundavia> I am focusing on marketing to teachers, decision makers and other corporate/large environment people
[07:19] <Burgundavia> it is what I do in my day job
[07:22] <ormiret> excelent - someone who is actually involved with the group they are trying to reach has a much better chance of success than someone looking in from the outside
[07:40] <Burgundavia> look at the case study again
[07:57] <adamant1988> hello all
[09:20] <Madpilot> http://clearnightsky.com/node/242
[09:24] <nixternal> nice Madpilot
[09:25] <nixternal> we need that guy here...he has great points that i have yet to see get brought up
[09:38] <adamant1988> hehe, I think I may have my fiance about to use Xubuntu :)
[09:58] <adamant1988> I agree with his points nixternal..
[09:58] <nixternal> he has some good ones, thats for sure
[09:58] <adamant1988> He made a great example out of Mac OSX.
[09:58] <nixternal> yes he did
[09:59] <adamant1988> It's not marketed as BSD and no one would know otherwise without being told.. but EVERYONE knows that ubuntu is linux.
[09:59] <adamant1988> perhaps the problem with linux lies not in the fact that it's so scattered, but in the fact that no distro has tried to hide the fact that it's linux.
[10:00] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:00] <Burgundavia> hiding the fact might be bad
[10:00] <Burgundavia> we can talk up the good without downplaying Linux
[10:00] <adamant1988> Really? Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to say "Ubuntu OS" ?
[10:00] <Burgundavia> we mostly already say that
[10:01] <adamant1988> Yeah, until you say Linux and then you have to spend all your time explaining that...
[10:01] <adamant1988> I don't think there should be any mention of being based off of debian, or even linux at all in the marketing of Ubuntu.
[10:02] <adamant1988> I think it would simplify the situation for new users a lot.
[10:03] <nixternal> well...we aren't only trying to marketing to the new users....by telling current users hey, check us out, we are designed off of debian, so if you are used to that, and like a great community, then Ubuntu is your os
[10:03] <adamant1988> Speaking of which, my technophobe fiance is SOOO close to trying Xubuntu on her outdated comp
[10:03] <nixternal> s/marketing/market
[10:03] <nixternal> current linux users that is also
[10:03] <adamant1988> Yeah, but current linux users are (mostly) power users anyway and would know that ubuntu is a debian based distro (look at all the press it gets from that).
[10:04] <nixternal> if we use debian in there, and person gets to researching debian, and they see the stong history debian has had, it only helps
[10:04] <adamant1988> most current linux users have had to do quite a bit of research to begin with to find a distro that suits them, I'd find it hard to believe they didn't know ubuntu is debian based.
[10:05] <nixternal> true
[10:05] <adamant1988> What I'm saying is that ubuntu is much more friendly to a user if the use of jargon is limited severely
[10:06] <adamant1988> it's a BASIC rule and I can't believe it's been so overlooked by everyone... (myself included).
[10:06] <nixternal> still the fact lies in, you market the history of Ubuntu, it is a short 2 years that has grown rapidly, great but still it is young, then you let them know but we are designed off of debian which has more then 10+ years of solid existance
[10:06] <nixternal> it only stresses the strengths
[10:06] <adamant1988> Yeah, but you can stress the strengths without the history lesson to confuse.
[10:07] <adamant1988> As a new user I don't want to know about Ubuntus great grandpappys stability.  In the eyes of a new user they're not the same product, they want to know about ubuntu in the here and now.
[10:07] <nixternal> letting someone know the history that is new to the world of linux is good, since all they hear is microsoft and thats all they have known for 10 years
[10:07] <adamant1988> But are we marketing linux or Ubuntu?
[10:07] <nixternal> well, during that 10 years while they were blind to the strong linux market, debian has grown, and ubuntu has spawned
[10:08] <nixternal> it doesn't have to be a focus, but it is a point
[10:08] <adamant1988> I have to say I'm going to give this a try with my fiance
[10:08] <nixternal> hehe
[10:08] <adamant1988> I'm going to stop using the word linux around her
[10:08] <nixternal> that is awesome
[10:08] <adamant1988> I'm just going to say Ubuntu
[10:08] <nixternal> get her on Xubuntu
[10:08] <nixternal> speaking of linux
[10:08] <adamant1988> all of the derivatives, they're just Ubuntu
[10:08] <nixternal> im gonna goto bed ;)
[10:09] <nixternal> lol
[10:09] <adamant1988> and I'll let you know how that works.
[10:09] <nixternal> dude..it is 4am there..wth you doing up?
[10:09] <adamant1988> I take stimulants
[10:09] <nixternal> heh
[10:09] <adamant1988> and I was talking to my fiance (she was up late)
[10:09] <nixternal> viagra don't count as a stimulant
[10:09] <nixternal> well ig uess it does
[10:10] <adamant1988> no need for that.  I'm just trying to make it look a little better... though I think the big bold text is a little overboard imho.. but hey... that why its a mockup :)
[11:54] <Burgundavia> isn't that menu in gnome cvs anyway?
[11:54] <darkmatter_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/183204582/in/photostream/ <--- thats actually a little closer to what the code version will actually look like
[11:54] <darkmatter_> yup.. it is... but it looks different
[11:54] <Burgundavia> how so?
[11:55] <darkmatter_> I haven't gotten around to replacing the system or status tiles yet
[11:55] <darkmatter_> I sec
[11:56] <darkmatter_> Burgundavia, http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=689&slide=24&title=suse+desktop+10+rc3+screenshots <-- thats what the actual slab looks like
[11:56] <Kamping_Kaiser> darkmatter_, that layout can ojjnly be usefull if your app is in the 6 there, otherwise its a pita :)
[11:56] <darkmatter_> still basic elements, etc
[11:56] <Burgundavia> darkmatter_: I really don't like how both of them don't look like standard gtk widgets
[11:57] <darkmatter_> I'm just trying to make it a little more.... hmm.. well laid out
[11:57] <darkmatter_> Burgundavia... because they aren't standard widgets
[11:57] <Burgundavia> that is an issue
[11:57] <darkmatter_> they're tiles
[11:57] <Burgundavia> there is a reason why standard widgets exist
[11:58] <Burgundavia> remember, different scares users
[11:58] <darkmatter_> http://guadec.org/node/241
[11:58] <Burgundavia> you can have tiles but still have it look like gtk
[11:58] <Burgundavia> currently that menu does not
[11:58] <darkmatter_> true
[11:59] <Burgundavia> however, I do like the idea of tiles
[11:59] <darkmatter_> to an extent atleast
[11:59] <darkmatter_> (the scares users part)
[11:59] <darkmatter_> yesh... tiles are great
[05:06] <adamant1988> hello all.
[05:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> hey


[04:17] <vibhav> !lococouncil > vibhav
[04:17] <ubot4> vibhav, please see my private message
[08:06] <YoBoY> bonjour
[13:50] <mhall119> bonjour YoBoY
[13:50] <YoBoY> bonjour mhall119 :)
[13:51] <nigelb> Bonjour mhall119, YoBoY
[13:51] <nigelb> I hope you both had a good Christmas :)
[13:53] <YoBoY> too much good food ^^"
[13:53] <nigelb> heh
[13:57] <mhall119> nigelb: lots of family fun
[13:57] <mhall119> so many cookies
[14:02] <nigelb> :)
[14:04] <YoBoY> http://yoboy.fr/images/P1030528.JPG my chocolate and vanilla "bûche de noël" :)~
[14:16] <nigelb> wow YoBoY
[14:17] <nigelb> that's a lot of chocolate :)
[14:17] <Pendulum> YoBoY: that looks very yummy
[14:29] <YoBoY> Pendulum: and it is, with lot of buttercream :D
[14:37] <Pendulum> my experience of bûche de noël is that it's yummy, but can leave me feeling slightly ill afterwards ;-)


[12:32] <agge> do anyone know where to find a list of the latest repositories?
[12:33] <KBar> agge: official Ubuntu repositories?
[12:33] <KBar> agge: for which version of Ubuntu?
[12:33] <agge> I was thinking the Xubuntu ones
[12:34] <agge> latest
[12:34] <KBar> agge: do you mean the Xubuntu development repositories (xubuntu-dev PPA)?
[12:34] <KBar> agge: this is the list: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev
[12:34] <agge> thanks
[12:37] <agge> looks like I miss-remembered is was sure that xubuntu had separate package repositories from regular Ubuntu but don't looks to be that way when I checked
[12:39] <agge> I decided to kick a old x61 thinkpad (runing vivide) that I latest used in 2015-16 and need to install some stuff but don't really feel like dumping the whole new release on it
[12:40] <KBar> agge: official Ubuntu flavors are required to only include the official repositories without third-party PPAs.
[12:40] <KBar> To be recognized as flavors.
[12:40] <agge> aha
[12:41] <agge> it was a while since I did much in linux at all
[12:41] <agge> thanks for the help
[12:41] <KBar> agge: welcome back. What exactly are you looking for?
[12:41] <agge> just messing around to see if I can do some stuff with the infrared module on this laptop
[12:42] <KBar> I see.
[12:44] <agge> I think that the computer had some issues connecting the to the wifi first so it looked like the package repositories was incompleate, so I first thought that the old reposities had been removed but looks like it got a complete connection now
[12:45] <agge> Still thanks for the help :-)
[12:45] <KBar> You're most welcome.
[17:15] <cboo> Hi folks - I am running xubuntu on Toughbook 18 pentium m (yay.) . Firefox won't connect hardly any pages with ssl. Any work arounds? Thank you for any help.
[21:06] <Bashing-om> UWN: Declaration of Monday ! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue716 :D
[21:08] <Bashing-om> ooppps :( wrong channel ^.