[00:03] <diddledan> I wonder when the watershed moment will be in a few years from now when BIOS support is dropped from mainline distros in favour of (u)EFI only :-p
[00:04] <directhex> diddledan, pfft, we still haven't dropped i386
[00:05] <diddledan> technically we have. we're still supporting i686 tho
[00:05] <diddledan> the kernel dropped i386 a while back
[00:06] <diddledan> I think the redhat-based are supporting i586+?
[00:07] <directhex> point is, 32-bit?
[00:07] <directhex> amd64 shipped in 2003 iirc
[00:07] <diddledan> yeah, I get your point :-)
[00:08] <diddledan> I think 32bit is still listed as recommended on ubuntu.com
[00:08] <diddledan> unless you select server
[00:08] <popey> directhex: having fun with DOTA?
[00:09] <directhex> popey, really really doesn't render here
[00:09] <directhex> diddledan, yeah, the recommending of i386 still is farcical imho. but there you go.
[00:11] <popey> i said I'd burn 28 CDs for someone for tomorrow
[00:11] <popey> i regret this
[00:11] <diddledan> I'm sure we must have reached hte point that most folk that still don't know the difference between 32/64bit are probably going to be running a 64bit-capable cpu
[00:12] <diddledan> and those that do know the difference can decide for themselves
[00:14] <directhex> bedtime.
[00:15] <diddledan> nn
[00:16] <diddledan> popey, what you burning?
[00:17] <popey> uh
[00:17] <popey> photographs of children
[00:18] <diddledan> popey: 10-15 minutes per burn, that could be in the order of 7 hours
[00:19] <popey> only ~350MB per cd
[00:20] <popey> nearly done, on the last two
[00:20] <popey> have two computers running in parallel ☻
[00:21] <diddledan> phew
[00:21] <popey> could have 3 but I am lazy
[00:22] <neuro> diddledan: in what world are you burning CDs at 6 speed?! 10-15 minutes per?
[00:22] <diddledan> neuro: +verify
[00:22] <neuro> pfff
[00:23] <popey> these are 24 speed i think
[00:23] <popey> "maximum"
[00:23] <popey> whatever a superdrive in an imac and a mbp do
[00:24] <popey> haha, advert for The Net on telly
[00:24] <neuro> i *still* think "what, an *HD* 3.5" drive?!" when someone says superdrive
[00:24] <popey> "Starring Sandra Bullock and a bunch of men who mostly get killed"
[00:24] <neuro> and i *still* think of the BBC 2 series rather than the movie when someone says The Net
[00:25] <popey> it annoys me the notification sound is the same as the ios one
[00:25] <neuro> and yeah, that sounds about right :)
[00:25] <diddledan> wtf, who gets killed?
[00:25] <neuro> ha
[00:25] <neuro> i think you'll find it's the other way round
[00:26] <popey> ☻
[00:26] <neuro> i was reading an article on eurogamer about gamesmaster the other day
[00:27] <neuro> got me to thinking about techie/geeky progs from the 90s
[00:27] <popey> also
[00:27] <neuro> and the net was definitely my favourite
[00:27] <popey> it annoys me that every single apple device I own has better audio output than every single other device I own
[00:27] <neuro> ha
[00:27] <popey> iphone, ipad, mbp, imac
[00:27] <diddledan> gotta love that they had partrick moore as the digitised head on gamesmaster
[00:27] <popey> all better than every other device
[00:28] <neuro> if it makes you feel any better, the 13" mbp speakers are a bit crap
[00:28] <popey> thats what i have
[00:28] <Azelphur> popey: surely professional sound cards do better?
[00:28] <popey> i dont own any
[00:28] <neuro> but my 13" mbp is currently plugged into 27" apple lcd, sooo ...
[00:28] <Azelphur> ah
[00:28] <neuro> ... it sounds pretty good
[00:29] <popey> name one laptop which has "professional" speakers and sound card
[00:29] <diddledan> friend at work swears by £50 USb DACs
[00:29] <popey> also audiophiles..
[00:29] <Azelphur> popey: no idea, I'd get one on USB.
[00:29] <Azelphur> there are some pretty decent USB sound cards, I hear
[00:29] <popey> no good for portability
[00:29] <Azelphur> but then I ain't an audiophile
[00:29] <popey> me either
[00:29] <neuro> i have a plantronics usb doohicky for my headphones, best headphone audio evar
[00:29] <popey> its not the card I'm talking about
[00:29] <neuro> plugged headphones into dell laptop, was tinny as hell
[00:29] <popey> its the whole sound system
[00:30] <neuro> plugged plantronics usb thingy in, plugged headphones in, win
[00:30] <neuro> popey: not many manufacturers have built-in optical support in the headphone jacks either
[00:30] <popey> true
[00:31] <diddledan> not many pc speaker systems come with optical input tho
[00:31] <neuro> pfff
[00:31] <popey> see, this is one of the very many reasons people pay more for apple kit
[00:31] <neuro> my mac mini in the living room is hooked up to home theater surround
[00:31] <neuro> so optical was a flat-out requirement rather than a nice to have
[00:31] <diddledan> I'll bet that gives good fuzz
[00:32] <neuro> no way am i putting up with dolby prologic from a stereo source when i can have DTS-ES 6.1 \o/
[00:32] <diddledan> although, everyone these days in surround systems seems to be all about maximum wattage
[00:33] <neuro> i thought these days the tipping point for getting people to buy was ipod connectors / bluetooth / airplay support
[00:33] <diddledan> my dad's 1960's speakers with RMS of about 20WATT can out-volume most modern-day speaker systems rated much higer wattage
[00:33] <neuro> your dad's speakers were owned by the 1960s?
[00:34] <diddledan> from the 1960's
[00:34] <neuro> from the 1960's what?
[00:34] <diddledan> era
[00:34] <neuro> <- grammar nazi
[00:34] <neuro> 1960 owned an era?
[00:34] <neuro> interesting
[00:34] <diddledan> you kill grammar on a genocidal scale?
[00:35] <neuro> no, i'm megalomaniacal about grammar mistakes
[00:35] <diddledan> surely that would make you a "gramma mistake nazi"? :-p
[00:35] <neuro> there's no need to be too specific about it
[00:35] <neuro> limits your options down the line
[00:36] <diddledan> lol
[00:36] <neuro> popey: it's funny, it dawned on me today that it's nearly 5 years since the ill fated fsf "hassle the genius bars" campaign, and the epic #lugradio discussion about it all
[00:37] <popey> wow
[00:37] <popey> time passes
[00:37] <neuro> ya
[00:37] <neuro> i found the irc log too, buried deep within a vm :)
[00:37] <Azelphur> popey: I dunno, people have all these good things to say about apple kit
[00:37] <popey> http://neuro.me.uk/2008/07/28/defective-in-the-head/
[00:37] <popey> i speak from personal experience
[00:37] <Azelphur> you'd be hard pressed to find my i7 with a GT 650M at 11.6"s from Apple
[00:37] <Azelphur> :P
[00:38] <popey> i dont care
[00:38] <popey> properly
[00:38] <popey> properly do not care
[00:38] <neuro> neuro@cochrane:~$ ls -l logs0/Freenode/#lugradio/20080728.log.bz2
[00:38] <neuro> -rw------- 1 neuro users 51562 Jul 29  2008 logs0/Freenode/#lugradio/20080728.log.bz2
[00:38] <Azelphur> lol
[00:38] <popey> you value raw grunt, I do not
[00:38] <neuro> why would you want an i7 with a GT650M and an 11" screen?!?!
[00:38] <popey> each to their own
[00:38] <Azelphur> It's pretty decent build too, my friend kindly knocked it off my desk onto a hardwood floor, it survived without a scratch
[00:38] <popey> there are so many variables when buying a computer
[00:39] <neuro> that's like buying a ferrari and putting 13" rims on it
[00:39] <popey> focussing on one single thing is mental
[00:39] <Azelphur> neuro: it fits in my coat pocket, which means I can take it with me everywhere.
[00:39] <Azelphur> no more laptop bag. :)
[00:39] <neuro> whatever floats your boat, i guess
[00:39] <neuro> what make?
[00:39] <popey> AlanBell: used to do that with an OLPC
[00:39] <diddledan> I need more screen estate, not less
[00:39] <Azelphur> It's a Clevo.
[00:39] <popey> in his coat pocket
[00:40] <neuro> clevo
[00:40] <Azelphur> yea, it's cool, totally freaks people out when I whip my laptop outta my pocket
[00:40] <diddledan> I've got a tablet (or two) which cover the smaller form-factors
[00:40] <Azelphur> because it's a scottevest, they have no idea until it just magically appears
[00:40] <Azelphur> sometimes I pull it out when people aren't looking, and then they turn around and are like what...where did that come from
[00:40] <Azelphur> xD
[00:40] <diddledan> lol
[00:41] <neuro> you have some easily freakible friends, it seems
[00:41]  * Azelphur shrugs
[00:41] <popey> ooooooookay
[00:41]  * popey goes to bedlington
[00:41] <neuro> wow, clicking on 11" laptop thingy on the front page of clevo
[00:41] <neuro> goes to http://www/en/products....
[00:41] <neuro> nice
[00:41] <Azelphur> but yea, popey is right about me, I'm a raw horsepower kinda person, I used to cary around a Dell XPS M1730 which is probably one of the biggest, heaviest laptops ever to be on the market.
[00:41] <Azelphur> and I loved it :P
[00:42] <neuro> depends what you define as "market"
[00:42] <popey> i had a dell xps gen 2
[00:42] <neuro> i remember a few luggables that would make any xps seem like a netbook
[00:42] <popey> it was big/heavy/powerful
[00:42] <Azelphur> popey: you had an M17 too iirc at one point
[00:42] <popey> 1600x1200, many years ago
[00:42] <popey> no
[00:42] <Azelphur> think it was the non-gamers edition though
[00:42] <popey> only an xps gen2
[00:42] <neuro> most any dell precision laptop would kick the bum of an xps in terms of mass
[00:42] <popey> with the silly LEDs
[00:42] <Azelphur> ah
[00:43] <popey> then it died
[00:43] <neuro> :(
[00:43] <popey> and dell screwed me over
[00:43] <Azelphur> :(
[00:43] <popey> specifically the nvidia card died
[00:43] <neuro> ha
[00:43] <popey> specifically the heat bond wasn't enough
[00:43] <Azelphur> popey: yea, loads of dells with nvidia problems from around that period
[00:43] <popey> indeed
[00:43] <Azelphur> my brother has a pile of them (literally)
[00:43] <neuro> as dell say: "oooooh, cost ya"
[00:43] <popey> exactly
[00:43] <popey> it was a month out of warranty
[00:43] <neuro> typical
[00:43] <popey> when i called and they said it would cost i said "no thanks"
[00:44] <popey> then they asked if i was happy with the service
[00:44] <popey> I said no
[00:44] <neuro> lol
[00:44] <popey> they tried to argue with me
[00:44] <popey> even put me through to a manager to argue with me
[00:44] <Azelphur> haha
[00:44] <popey> I was disgusted
[00:44] <popey> didn't touch dell for a while after that
[00:44] <popey> added them to the wall of shame ☻
[00:44] <neuro> :)
[00:44] <popey> http://popey.com/blog/2006/07/07/my_sick_dell_inspiron_xps_gen_2_laptop/
[00:44] <popey> 2006!
[00:44] <neuro> i remember getting told a lovely story by dell one night
[00:45] <neuro> while sat in front of a crashed, really badly broken poweredge
[00:45] <neuro> and the story was how the Next Business Day support was in business hours
[00:45] <neuro> so if I called after 6pm
[00:45] <Azelphur> http://dr_fish.speedymail.org/techreport/w110er_open.jpg is my laptop I currently roll with, so much power in so little space.
[00:45] <neuro> and said "get someone here now"
[00:45] <popey> awwww http://popey.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Image403.jpg
[00:45] <popey> haha
[00:45] <popey> nice
[00:45] <neuro> that 'now' meant 'next business day', which really meant 'day after tomorrow, sucker'
[00:46] <neuro> had to explain that one to my boss
[00:46] <neuro> he wasn't very pleased
[00:46] <Azelphur> popey: I take it out to the local national autistic society with me every week, plug it into the ~50" TV on the wall, and we all play games in Dolphin with PS3 controllers :D
[00:46] <neuro> had the acct manager almost literally over the coals, but was feck all he could do as the support was outsourced to Wang at the time
[00:46] <Azelphur> so yea, lots of grunt for such a tiny machine
[00:47] <popey> jeez 3 years ago i roasted my laptop http://popey.com/blog/2010/03/08/roast-laptop/
[00:47] <popey> time properly flies
[00:47] <popey> Azelphur: thats awesome
[00:47] <diddledan> Azelphur: that's cute
[00:48] <Azelphur> :)
[00:48] <popey> WANG!
[00:48] <Azelphur> might even have a photo of that somewhere I think
[00:48]  * Azelphur digs
[00:48] <neuro> popey: yeah i just read that about roasting the card, nice
[00:48] <diddledan> it's like a baby puter suckling it's mommy
[00:48] <neuro> yeah, Wang
[00:48] <neuro> COMPUTERWANG
[00:48] <popey> first heard of wang in .... uhm
[00:48] <popey> my first job
[00:48] <popey> 1988
[00:48] <neuro> i probably saw their name in an ad in BYTE or PCW or something
[00:48] <popey> they had a wang pc and a pc running windows 1.0 or something
[00:48] <neuro> or maybe in a movie?
[00:49]  * popey checks his dates
[00:49] <neuro> "COMPUTERS PROVIDED BY WANG CORPORATION"
[00:49] <popey> yeah 1988 would be okay for windows 1.0 or so
[00:49]  * neuro shivers
[00:49] <popey> and now bed.
[00:49] <popey> ☻
[00:49] <popey> nn chaps
[00:49] <diddledan> nn, popey
[00:49] <neuro> jings dude, didn't realise you were that much older than me
[00:49] <neuro> and on that note, nn
[00:50] <neuro> i think i too shall hit the hay
[00:50] <neuro> and also go to bed
[00:50]  * popey is 42
[00:50] <neuro> = 39
[00:50] <popey> 40 this year?
[00:50] <neuro> next
[00:50] <popey> youngling
[00:50] <neuro> you must have left school early?
[00:50] <popey> nn
[00:50] <popey> 16
[00:50] <popey> first job
[00:50] <neuro> i stayed til 18
[00:50] <neuro> fat good it did me
[00:50] <neuro> anyway
[00:50] <popey> I wish i did
[00:51] <popey> .sometimes
[00:51] <popey> now.. bed
[00:51] <neuro> lol
[00:51] <neuro> zz
[01:18] <Azelphur> hows 13.10 at the moment? I'm still on 12.10 and need to get upgrading lol
[01:18] <Azelphur> thinking I might just skip 13.04 and go straight to .10 a tad early ;)
[06:55] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:01] <MartijnVdS> \o MooDoo
[07:29] <SuperMatt> morning
[08:13] <mungbean_> quidco gave me £5 for joining if i spent any money at ayn retailer :D
[08:13] <mungbean_> bought an airfix for £5.99 from argos delivered. got £5.09 paid back \o/
[08:14] <mungbean_> should have done this years ago
[08:14] <diplo> Morning all
[08:14] <diplo> I've been a quidco person for years, still haven't done much with it.. always forget :)
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> mungbean_: you know you're the product they sell right?
[08:14] <diplo> My friend has made about 3k in the last few years
[08:16] <mungbean_> MartijnVdS: well they are giving me a cut of the referral monies
[08:17] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:17] <bigcalm> Does toggl hate just me, or is it broken for everybody else as well?
[08:18] <MartijnVdS> toggl?
[08:18] <bigcalm> A project time tracking website. No worries :)
[08:21] <mungbean_> arrived at work with massive tray of brownies
[08:21] <mungbean_> work with a load of IT geeks, nobody interested :-|
[08:21] <bigcalm> :O
[08:21] <bigcalm> Everybody on a diet?
[08:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> mungbean_: Call them chocolate cake.
[08:21] <mungbean_> triple choc white/milk/dark, they are finest brownies known to man
[08:22] <bigcalm> Call them girl guides
[08:23] <JohnRobert> hello
[08:23] <JohnRobert> I got xubuntu working properly on my t-420s... the trick was disabling optimus thingi in the bios
[08:23] <JohnRobert> bloody thing
[08:24] <JohnRobert> it's a shame it can't just boot up and say 'try turning off optimus in the bios'
[08:24] <JohnRobert> rather than refusing to work properly
[08:24] <mungbean_> optimus support sucks
[08:28] <mungbean> did you turn it to performance mode or stamina?
[08:32] <mungbean> anyone here use a roof box for their carf?
[08:32] <mungbean> *car
[08:34] <popey> still not got new google maps on android
[08:38] <MartijnVdS> popey: they know you work for a competitor ;)
[08:43] <popey> hah
[08:45] <ali1234> i haven't got it either
[08:45] <mungbean> !ping
[08:46] <ali1234> seems like i can manually update through the appstore?
[08:46] <JohnRobert> new maps?
[08:47] <ali1234> yeah
[08:48] <ali1234> it doesn't seem that different to the old one
[08:48] <neuro> updated NSA API
[08:48] <JohnRobert> anyone know if there's a way I can set a specific route or use 'my maps' with google maps?
[08:48] <JohnRobert> I often go out on bike rides and use the navigation thing
[08:48] <JohnRobert> as it can speak the directions
[08:48] <JohnRobert> however, I can't specify a route with it
[08:54] <popey> cant you create the route on the web and then send it to your phone?
[08:54] <mungbean> can someone explain roof bars to me :$
[08:54] <christel> you can attach things to them!
[08:54]  * christel nods
[08:55] <popey> they run along the top of the car
[08:55]  * popey has moved to the back garden again
[08:55] <neuro> ROOF RACK
[08:55] <mungbean> i buy a roof box, i have to buy roof bars too
[08:55] <christel> does your car have roof bars to which you can attach your box or do you need to get roof bars fitted?
[08:55] <popey> my car has them
[08:55] <neuro> yeah, you'll need the bars to attach the granny box to
[08:55] <popey> \o/ volvo
[08:55] <christel> i drive a volvo so i have them by def...
[08:55] <christel> jinx!
[08:55] <neuro> if you don't have mounting points
[08:55] <christel> :P
[08:56] <neuro> volvooooooo
[08:56] <mungbean> i have a fcous esate. it has black trim along the top
[08:56] <mungbean> do i need a roof rack as well as the box?
[08:56] <neuro> you know what i'm going to say
[08:56] <neuro> you'll hate it
[08:56] <neuro> but
[08:56] <neuro> RTFM
[08:56] <neuro> :)
[08:56] <mungbean> i don't have the box yet,
[08:56] <mungbean> i'm gathering requirements
[08:56] <mungbean> but no rails come with box
[08:57] <neuro> no, but surely your owner's manual will tell you if you have mounting points along the roof trim
[08:57] <neuro> and
[08:57] <neuro> hang on
[08:57] <mungbean> ok, so how do i mount the box to the mount points
[08:57] <christel> mungbean: i suspect you will need to purchase rails/bars that fit your car
[08:57] <christel> halfords sell them
[08:57] <neuro> yeah, exactly, how do you mount the box
[08:57] <neuro> with rails/bars, surely :)
[08:58]  * neuro is confused and goes back to his mcdonald's strawberry/banana smoothie
[08:58] <mungbean> they seem expensive
[08:58] <neuro> they are!
[08:58] <neuro> it was like 2 pound something
[08:58] <mungbean> 200
[08:58] <neuro> it wasn't *that* expensive
[08:58] <ali1234> strawberry and banana? mixed together?
[08:58] <mungbean> roof bars , not MCD
[08:58] <neuro> s'only a drink!
[08:59] <neuro> ali1234: yar
[08:59] <ali1234> is that a real thing or did you just ask for half and half?
[08:59] <neuro> it's a real thing
[08:59] <ali1234> because it sounds disgusting
[08:59] <neuro> it's awesome
[09:00] <neuro> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/ukhome/more-food/iced-fruit-smoothies-iced-frappes.html
[09:00] <mungbean> banana is often used to thicken smoothie
[09:00] <ali1234> well they always used to do strawberry *or* banana milkshake
[09:01] <ali1234> is it just like those mixed together?
[09:01] <neuro> this isn't a milkshake
[09:01] <ali1234> or is smoothie different?
[09:01] <neuro> it's a smoothie
[09:01] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:01] <mungbean> what are T-track fittings?
[09:01] <ali1234> more liquidy?
[09:01] <neuro> puree + juice + yoghurt + ice
[09:01] <neuro> more liquidy, more icy
[09:02] <neuro> mungbean: it's the black strip
[09:02] <mungbean> as opposed to "fixing points"
[09:02] <JohnRobert> popey, yeah, but I don't think I can get navigation to follow the map
[09:02] <ali1234> fixing points are fixed points... the t track thing can slide in one direction... i guess
[09:03] <neuro> http://www.roofbox.co.uk/roof-bars/roof-bars-racks-faq.php#question4
[09:03] <neuro> "4. What is a T track?"
[09:03] <mungbean> lol i'm on that site
[09:03] <mungbean> "Aluminium bars have a load limit of 75kg if this is supported by the car on which they are being used."
[09:03] <JamesTait> Good morning all, happy World Population Day! :-D
[09:03] <neuro> you what? :)
[09:04] <neuro> are we celebrating the existing population or is this a call to continue adding to it?
[09:05]  * popey gets jiggy with neuro
[09:05] <popey> oh, that's not going to work is it
[09:05] <neuro> not really, no
[09:05] <ali1234> http://www.roofbox.co.uk/roof-bars/ <- has pictures of each mounting type
[09:05] <neuro> not without some sort of biological upgrade
[09:06] <popey> sidegrade
[09:06] <JamesTait> neuro, an attempt to raise awareness of global population issues, apparently.
[09:06] <neuro> and a *lot* of single malt
[09:06] <popey> haha
[09:06] <popey> nah, you're not that ugly ㋛
[09:06] <JamesTait> GET A ROOM! :-P
[09:06] <popey>  /join #popey-and-neuro
[09:06] <neuro> i wasn't talking about me!
[09:06] <popey> i know ☻
[09:06] <neuro> lol
[09:07] <neuro> /join #worldpopulationday-ifyouknowwhatimean
[09:07] <neuro> And on THAT bombshell ...
[09:11] <neuro> wow, i killed the channel
[09:11] <neuro> didn't really mean to do that
[09:11] <neuro> unless everyone's join those other channels ;)
[09:11] <popey> heh
[09:11] <neuro> s/join/joined/
[09:13] <Laney> we were all doing our bit
[09:13] <neuro> jpc
[09:13] <bigcalm> I just want sleep
[09:16]  * popey updated home minecraft server to 1.6.2
[09:16] <neuro> ooh
[09:16] <popey> seems you get baby zombies and baby pigmen now
[09:16] <neuro> lol
[09:17] <popey> who run fast
[09:17] <neuro> i need to get back into minecraft
[09:17] <popey> and there seems to be a bug where animals run all the time
[09:17] <neuro> been ages since i've fired it up on mac
[09:17] <neuro> played it a bit on the xbox with some mates
[09:17] <popey> my kids will be playing it for the next ~weeks
[09:17] <popey> they break up from school today
[09:17] <popey> so i thought I'd update it for them ☻
[09:17] <neuro> geek dads ftw
[09:17] <popey> \o/
[09:18] <popey> also, sophie wants to write a game this summer
[09:18] <neuro> someone should set up sysadmindads.org
[09:20] <bigcalm> That makes me think of Mum's Net
[09:20] <neuro> oh jeez
[09:20] <bigcalm> Yeah
[09:20] <neuro> i wandered in there by accident the other day
[09:21] <neuro> found a thread where parents were asking about buying CoD Black Ops II for their kids
[09:21] <neuro> like 8-12 yr old kids
[09:21] <neuro> virtually every post was facepalm worthy
[09:21] <popey> haha
[09:22] <neuro> i talked a couple in Tesco out of buying Cod and BF3 for their 8 year old last year
[09:22] <neuro> explained to them that the ratings on the front of the boxes were there for a reason
[09:22] <MartijnVdS> neuro: "Get GTA4 instead, they can murder prostitutes in that one!"
[09:22] <neuro> and that they were filled with violence, blood and swearing, and they were completely age inappropriate for an 8 year old
[09:22] <neuro> they were like "ohhhhhh???"
[09:22] <neuro> they had NO idea
[09:23] <neuro> seems to be mainly peer pressure that gets kids < 16 playing CoD
[09:23] <neuro> "but mummy, all my friends are playing it!" "well, ok then"
[09:23] <neuro> *facedesk*
[09:23] <MartijnVdS> neuro: "You have no friends"
[09:24] <ali1234> i still maintain that they're not age appropriate for anyone over the age of 16 either
[09:24] <neuro> why?
[09:24] <ali1234> because of the violence blood and swearing
[09:24] <neuro> i mean, i don't play CoD because a) it's rubbish and b) it's generally played only by kids and muppets
[09:25]  * neuro prefers battlefield
[09:25] <neuro> ali1234: do you also not watch any movies with violence, blood and/or swearing?
[09:25] <neuro> or tv shows?
[09:25] <ali1234> it depends
[09:25] <ali1234> if that's all they have, then no
[09:25] <neuro> i'm not hassling, i'm just curious
[09:25] <neuro> "they"?
[09:25] <ali1234> it's more like "because they don't have anything else to offer"
[09:25] <ali1234> they = games, tv shows and movies
[09:26] <neuro> battlefield offers a stylised military simulation, encouraging tactical and team play
[09:26] <bigcalm> Still waiting for Minecraft the movie
[09:26] <ali1234> does it?
[09:26] <neuro> yup
[09:26] <popey> watched the film about minecraft?
[09:26] <popey> well, about mojang
[09:27] <ali1234> cos whenever i see anyone playing it it just looks like rocket spam and helicopters
[09:27] <neuro> mo-jaaaaaaaaang
[09:27] <bigcalm> Didn't know there was one
[09:27] <popey> it was kickstartered
[09:27] <neuro> ali1234: you're playing with muppets then :)
[09:27] <popey> they put it on tpb iirc
[09:27] <popey> with a watermark suggesting you should actually pay for the real one
[09:27] <neuro> yeah, it was streamable on the xbox for a bit
[09:27] <ali1234> ARMA seems to actually offer a fairly realistic simulation
[09:27] <neuro> they made a big thing about it
[09:27] <bigcalm> My nanny ISP doesn't let me go to tpb any more :(
[09:27] <popey> other torrent sites are available
[09:27] <neuro> arma is definitely more "realistic" than battlefield
[09:27] <JohnRobert> try googling tpb mirror
[09:28] <popey> also.. i use mirrors
[09:28] <directhex> i don't play games with other people very often
[09:28] <popey> http://www.piratebayproxylist.com/
[09:28] <JohnRobert> many people clone tpb to other sites
[09:28] <directhex> as other people are, by and large, gibbering monkeys
[09:28] <neuro> popey: tut tut :)
[09:28] <bigcalm> directhex: you should buy Trials Evolution and play with me :D
[09:28] <popey> legal torrents innit
[09:28] <neuro> oh dear god, no
[09:28] <JohnRobert> I was talking about tall parent broncos
[09:28] <ali1234> if rocket spamming is the best tactic then it's not the player's fault if that's what they do
[09:28] <ali1234> it means the game is broken
[09:28] <JohnRobert> quake2
[09:28] <JohnRobert> best game ever.
[09:28] <neuro> every time i play trials evolution, i end up wanting to put my joypad through the telly
[09:29] <directhex> i used to play quake 2 online
[09:29] <directhex> ...
[09:29] <directhex> 350 ping]
[09:29] <JohnRobert> me too
[09:29] <JohnRobert> mine was around 2500
[09:29] <JohnRobert> still pwned.
[09:29] <neuro> ali1234: i'd take issue with "best"
[09:29] <directhex> unreal tournament, now that i enjoyed playing competitively
[09:29] <JohnRobert> anyway, back to zend framework 2.
[09:29] <bigcalm> Boooo
[09:29] <neuro> ali1234: the best servers are always ones where players abide by the mantra PTFO
[09:30] <neuro> Play The ****ing Objective
[09:30] <ali1234> best = most likely to win
[09:30] <directhex> bigcalm, buying games this morning is dumb, the sale starts in ~7 hours
[09:30] <popey> ooh
[09:30] <neuro> ali1234: i'd only say rocket spamming was good for "winning" at team deathmatch
[09:30] <bigcalm> directhex: ah, somebody at the LUG last night mentioned there was a sale coming up. Hope BioShock is in it
[09:30] <neuro> you're not going to win at rush, or ctf, or conquest, etc by rocket spamming
[09:30] <neuro> i think you've seen one specific scenario and conflated it to cover the entire game
[09:31] <directhex> bigcalm, everything is in it. EVERYTHING.
[09:31] <bigcalm> o.O
[09:31] <directhex> bigcalm, you don't know standard steam sale etiquette then?
[09:31] <ali1234> in a good game you're not going to win at *anything* by rocket spamming because you won't get more than 2 or 3 rockets per quad
[09:31] <neuro> sale? where? steam?
[09:31] <ali1234> *squad
[09:31] <popey> directhex: i dont
[09:31] <neuro> ali1234: um
[09:31] <bigcalm> directhex: do educate me :)
[09:31] <directhex> i guess this is the first steam sale for many ubuntoobies
[09:31] <neuro> ali1234: squad explosive perk + ammo crates
[09:31] <popey> ya
[09:31] <directhex> okay
[09:32] <directhex> steam sales are typically divided into three main camps:
[09:32] <neuro> 1) rubbish
[09:32] <neuro> 2) old
[09:32] <neuro> 3) OMGOMGOMG
[09:32]  * neuro runs
[09:32] <bigcalm> Heh
[09:32] <directhex> 1) short-term sales. these run from about 4 to 48 hours, and offer the best prices on individual games. a game *might* appear more than once as a short term sale over the duration of the entire sale
[09:33] <directhex> 2) whole catalogue sales. almost every game on steam will have *some* reduction applied to it
[09:33] <ali1234> neuro: and that's the inherent conflict - the gameplay mechanics are designed for kids with short attention span, while the story and content is only suitable for adults
[09:33] <ali1234> neuro: thus as a whole the game is not suitable for anybody
[09:33] <neuro> ali1234: it sounds like you've never actually played bf3 or any other battlefield game in earnest
[09:33] <directhex> 3) publisher packs. this typically consists of all or most of the games made by a given publisher, sold at a massive bundle discount (e.g. thirty games from 2K for under 30 quid)
[09:33] <ali1234> there are tv shows and movies like this too
[09:34] <neuro> yes, there are dumb tv shows/movies full of violence and swearing etc
[09:34] <neuro> but there are smart ones too
[09:34] <ali1234> yeah
[09:34] <bigcalm> My wallet is going to feel the impact I fear
[09:34] <directhex> the short version is, don't buy a game unless it's in category 1 or 3 - until the final day of the sale, when it's clear that game you were waiting for wont go on super sale
[09:34] <neuro> my favourite film of all time is Heat
[09:34] <neuro> it's full of violence, blood and swearing
[09:34] <neuro> tell me it's not an intelligent movie
[09:34] <ali1234> i'm not talking about the smart ones
[09:35] <neuro> ah, now you're qualifying :)
[09:35] <directhex> fr'example, a game might be 33% off "normally" in the sale, but 75% off for 8 hours in a short-term sale
[09:35] <neuro> directhex: I LOVE THOSE
[09:35] <ali1234> well, i started off talking specifically about two games
[09:35] <popey> thanks directhex
[09:35] <directhex> so you're dumb if you buy it at 33% off because you didn't wait for it to be 75% off
[09:35] <neuro> ali1234: and to me, bf is the smarter cousin of cod
[09:35] <ali1234> sure
[09:35] <ali1234> butthat's not saying much
[09:36] <ali1234> lol butt hat
[09:36] <neuro> the publisher packs are awesome, but only if you have few or none of the games in the pack (duh)
[09:36] <neuro> haha
[09:36] <directhex> yes, neuro is correct
[09:36] <neuro> which is why i've never bought the steam pub packs
[09:36] <directhex> i bought many publisher packs in the early days of steam sales, so now they're no use to me
[09:36] <neuro> because i have most of them already
[09:36] <neuro> yeah, would be nice if they could calculate a discount based on what you have already
[09:36] <neuro> although that may be somewhat complex
[09:36] <neuro> and unfair
[09:36] <directhex> that's a point to stress - in ALMOST all cases, if you own game FooBar, and buy a pack which also contains FooBar, you will NOT receive a spare copy
[09:37] <directhex> it'll throw the second copy in the virtual bin
[09:37] <neuro> and then virtually stamp on it
[09:37] <neuro> and then emit an evil virtual cackly laugh
[09:37] <neuro> "ha ha ha ha ha!"
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> don't you even get a hat for it?
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> (virtual hat)
[09:37] <neuro> nope, not even a butt hat
[09:37] <ali1234> virtual butt hat?
[09:37] <directhex> for more detail, see https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4502-TPJL-2656
[09:38] <ali1234> what's te deal with trading cards now? are they the new hats?
[09:38] <directhex> sorta
[09:38] <directhex> hats, but for any game!
[09:38] <popey> i seem to own about half of the possible linux games
[09:38] <ali1234> hats are for any game aren't they?
[09:38] <ali1234> i mean you can only wear them in TF2...
[09:38] <ali1234> but you can get them all over the place i thought
[09:38] <bigcalm> Humble Bundles are to blame for a lot of those I'm guessing
[09:38] <popey> ya
[09:38] <bigcalm> Same here
[09:39] <directhex> ali1234, there are often promotional tie-ins, i.e. "buy this game, get 3 tf2 hats"
[09:39] <neuro> it would have been interesting to see what would have become of the xbox live marketplace had microsoft stuck to their guns
[09:39] <neuro> could have become very steam like
[09:40] <neuro> that's the only problem i have with the xbox one, small storage
[09:40] <neuro> i joined playstation plus in december and the 250GB hd in my ps3 is nearly full
[09:40] <ali1234> do achievments and trading cards work in steam for linux?
[09:40] <neuro> of couse
[09:41] <neuro> s/couse/course/
[09:41] <ali1234> cos the only game i've played enough to earn any, they don't
[09:41] <ali1234> i guess just that game is broken then
[09:41] <ali1234> i guess TF2 works but then that's valve, you'd expect it to
[09:41] <neuro> why would they make a big thing out of steam on linux and then cripple it?
[09:41] <popey> 231 linux games in total, I have 68 it seems
[09:41] <popey> still plenty to buy ☻
[09:41] <neuro> good lord, man
[09:41] <ali1234> i don't think it's intentionally broken
[09:42] <ali1234> just kinda half broken sometimes
[09:45]  * neuro hopes his bonus comes through this week
[09:45] <neuro> have my eye on a synology nas :)
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> synology <3
[09:46] <neuro> DS213J with 2x 2TB WD Reds for 380 quid from ebuyer :)
[09:47] <bigcalm> In case anybody is interested, spex4less are having a sale on prescription sunglasses: http://www.spex4less.com/sale_offer_sunglasses.shtml
[09:47] <neuro> gonna mirror it and use it as an iscsi target for an ESXi datastore
[09:47] <bigcalm> About to throw 25 quid at them for a decent enough pair
[09:47] <neuro> the 1TB drive in my main ESXi box is knackered
[09:47]  * popey is rocking out
[09:47]  * neuro is daftpunking out
[09:48] <popey> http://www.last.fm/user/popeydc
[09:48] <neuro> NICE
[09:48] <bigcalm> I seem to have Orbital on this morning
[09:48] <neuro> http://www.last.fm/user/evilneuro
[09:48] <popey> we are having scrobble support in the ubuntu phone music app
[09:49] <popey> love that tron legacy album
[09:49] <neuro> it's awesome, isn't it
[09:49] <popey> yeah, but then i really love the flim too

[09:49] <popey> watched it a dozen times i think
[09:49] <popey> when i rented it on virgin i watched it 3 times in the 24 hours you're allowed ㋛
[09:50] <neuro> hahaha ... "Your musical compatibility with popeydc is SUPER"
[09:50] <popey> yeah ☻
[09:50]  * neuro hugs his TRON/TRON Legacy blu ray double pack
[09:50] <popey> that looks _so_ camp when I read it
[09:50] <neuro> ha, so it does
[09:50] <neuro> OMG, it's SOOOOOPERRRR!
[09:50] <popey> Big Gay Al.
[09:50] <neuro> lol
[09:51] <popey> \o/ Jabber
[09:51] <MattJ> Jabber \o/
[09:51] <neuro> see, popey, now i have a problem
[09:51] <neuro> i was up for some daft punk this morning
[09:51] <neuro> but when i see Won't Get Fooled Again ...
[09:51] <neuro> and Ace of Spades
[09:51] <neuro> YOU CONFUSE ME
[09:52] <popey> yeah, they kickstarted me this morning
[09:53] <neuro> this is still my favourite thing for when i need a boost in the morning
[09:53] <neuro> http://www.last.fm/music/The+Crystal+Method/_/Drive:+Nike+%252B+Original+Run+(Continuous+Mix)
[09:53] <neuro> 45 minutes of non stop Crystal Method
[09:54] <neuro> best thing i bought off the itunes store in years
[09:54] <neuro> in fact, sod daft punk
[09:54] <popey> haha
[09:55]  * bigcalm slides around to Zero 7
[09:56]  * popey foot-taps in the garden with headphones on
[09:56] <popey> need to take these off before the kids come home and run out here and scare the bejeezus out of me
[09:57]  * neuro posts the first shout in the ubuntu-uk last.fm group for nearly 4 yrs
[09:58] <popey> Your musical compatibility with jonobacon is LOW
[09:59] <popey> quelle surprise
[09:59] <neuro> haha
[09:59] <neuro> morn aq
[09:59] <popey> http://www.last.fm/group/Canonical
[10:00] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:00] <neuro> allo
[10:00] <bigcalm> Morning davmor2
[10:00] <davmor2> JamesTait: I know I'm a few seconds early
[10:01] <davmor2> bigcalm: told you I'd see you online in the morning, ye of little faith :D
[10:01] <JamesTait> davmor2, close enough for me, I was pretty late this morning.
[10:01] <JamesTait> davmor2, and good morning to you, sir.
[10:01] <bigcalm> davmor2: only because I cba so far today
[10:02] <davmor2> bigcalm: man having another dev on the team sure has made you lax :P
[10:02] <bigcalm> davmor2: gah, far from it. A lot of my time has been spent providing support
[10:19] <popey> this is odd http://www.last.fm/user/AJ2002 just friend requested me
[10:21] <MartijnVdS> Your musical compatibility with popeydc is HIGH
[10:21] <popey> lastfm is very shouty
[10:32] <mungbean> if amazon can do autrip for CDs, i wish they would do autorip for books :D
[10:32] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: that would ROCK
[10:32] <MartijnVdS> though I can't get to my autoripped CDs
[10:32] <mungbean> oh why?
[10:32] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: can't access the UK mp3 storage from .nl
[10:32] <MartijnVdS> only the US storage
[10:32] <MartijnVdS> yay "rights"
[10:32] <mungbean> tor exit node?
[10:33] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: haven't tried my vps yet ;)
[10:33] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: also, I've already non-auto-ripped them ;)
[10:33]  * popey notes everyone everywhere says amazon should do autorip for books
[10:33] <mungbean> yeah and that
[10:33] <MartijnVdS> popey: also vidoe
[10:33] <popey> I have yet to have a conversation with someone about autorip which didn't result in them saying that
[10:33] <ali1234> by autorip you mean give you a free ebook if you already have a paper copy?
[10:34] <mungbean> yeah, althoug i've noticed an increase in mp3 album prices lately
[10:34] <popey> yeah
[10:34] <popey> i think people want to have ebooks of past purchases
[10:34] <popey> not sure why
[10:34] <mungbean> because reading books sucks, and reading on kindle rocks
[10:34] <MartijnVdS> I did get the email that Amazon autoripped >160 CDs for me
[10:34] <popey> but you've already read them surely?
[10:34] <bigcalm> Save them getting out of bed and looking at the bookshelf for something to read
[10:35] <mungbean> no
[10:35] <ali1234> say you want to read it agan but you can't find it
[10:35] <MartijnVdS> popey: re-reading books can be fun
[10:35] <popey> true
[10:35] <mungbean> and i'm re-reading all the hitchhikers actually
[10:35] <popey> hehe
[10:35] <ali1234> or it might be a reference text
[10:35] <mungbean> my others are in the loft
[10:35] <popey> i haven't read those for years
[10:35] <popey> i listened to teh audio book versions over and over
[10:35] <popey> well, audio play
[10:35] <mungbean> got them for 2.29 for set of 5
[10:35] <bigcalm> I put a book on my Amazon wish list and was bought it for my birthday. 1/4 way into reading the book I realised I had already read it. Just about 20 years ago :D
[10:36] <mungbean> which book? noddy?
[10:36] <mungbean> there's loads of books i have in the loft because i made a couple of babies
[10:36] <popey> i need to clear out the books in my office
[10:36] <popey> as it's being converted to a kids room this month
[10:36] <bigcalm> Issac Asimov - The Naked Sun
[10:37] <mungbean> i'm more inclined to read them on my tablet
[10:37] <mungbean> my wife wants an extensions
[10:37] <mungbean> not sure whether loft or outback
[10:37] <bigcalm> popey: finally making the move to the garage?
[10:37] <bigcalm> mungbean: toilet extension?
[10:37] <mungbean> a new room
[10:37] <popey> once the den is converted
[10:38] <popey> see if we have enough money left to do the garage
[10:38] <popey> if not I'll spend all summer working outside ☻
[10:38] <popey> like I am now
[10:38] <bigcalm> Hah
[10:38] <mungbean> i "did" my shed the other day..*hundreds* of snails and spiders
[10:38] <mungbean> outside gives you cancer, dailymail told me
[10:39] <ali1234> literally everything and everyone on the internet is named after something from a sci-fi or fantasy novel
[10:39] <ali1234> every time i read one i get about 100 new references
[10:40] <mungbean> reminded of a line in catch-22..
[10:40] <mungbean> "where are the snowdens of yesteryear"
[10:40] <mungbean> how apt
[10:42] <ali1234> i was talking to my brother the other day and he was comparing LotR and something else, saying the other thing was more influential on geek culture. i think the other thing might have been star wars.
[10:45] <ali1234> that's clearly nonsense. there's far more gandalfs and legolas than han solos and darth vaders on the internet
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: http://i.imgur.com/4Jzu0.png
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: maybe he meant MLP:FIM
[10:45] <mungbean> lotr influenced other fantasy culture a lot
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: too much, imho
[10:46] <mungbean> star wars influenced 8yr old boys
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> it's all dwarves + humans + elves vs (same 3 but evil)
[10:49] <ali1234> that picture needs to be taken further by replacing patrick stewart with jonathan frakes photoshopped into a stillsuit with vampire fangs
[10:49] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: offend ALL the fandoms
[10:50] <ali1234> well there's no point doing half a job
[11:58] <directhex> shower handset: £16
[11:58] <directhex> same handset with hose & riser rail: £20
[12:24] <JohnRobert> picard ftw.
[12:24] <JohnRobert> best character in anything ever.
[12:25] <Azelphur> hmm, anyone have any suggestions on what everyday shop might stock magnetic tape? :p
[12:25]  * Azelphur doesn't want to order it online and wait
[12:25] <mungbean> B&Q?
[12:25] <Azelphur> could do, there's one not too far from here :)
[12:26] <mungbean> you might wanna pick up some sugru in there too
[12:26] <Azelphur> what's that for?
[12:27] <mungbean> its like an awesome use-once blue-tac that turns to rubber once you've applied it
[12:27] <mungbean> lots of uses.
[12:27] <JohnRobert> I have some of that
[12:27] <JohnRobert> still not used it
[12:27] <mungbean> e.g. for creating a comfrotable hand-grip around a metal tap
[12:27] <mungbean> repairing a welly boot
[12:27] <JohnRobert> sugaru
[12:27] <JohnRobert> or something
[12:28] <MartijnVdS> sugru
[12:28] <Azelphur> hehe
[12:28] <MartijnVdS> JohnRobert: you're thinking of subaru ;)
[12:28] <JohnRobert> still don't know what to do with it
[12:28] <Azelphur> I'm getting it for my latest silly plan, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3832397/Photos/2013/Jun/2013-07-11-132206.jpg
[12:28] <MartijnVdS> JohnRobert: they have lots of ideas on their website
[12:28] <JohnRobert> wireless charging?
[12:28] <mungbean> and youtubes
[12:28] <Azelphur> portable battery connected to induction charger works, now I just put a bit of magnetic tape on the induction charger so it sticks to the phone, and then put the whole assembly in my pocket, :D
[12:29] <JohnRobert> great
[12:29] <JohnRobert> except you'll kill the compass inside the phone
[12:29] <mungbean> do you need your goands Azelphur ?
[12:29] <mungbean> *gonads
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: because the phone doesn't have a charger port on USB?
[12:29] <Azelphur> JohnRobert: it's designed for that, the nexus orb uses magnets to hold the phone on
[12:29] <JohnRobert> o
[12:29] <JohnRobert> I have nexus4
[12:29] <JohnRobert> it's good
[12:29] <Azelphur> http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18ec4kgczda18png/original.png :)
[12:30] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: it does, but having it auto charge simply by putting it in your pocket is awesome :p
[12:30] <JohnRobert> heh
[12:30] <JohnRobert> good...where does the charging battery go?
[12:30] <Azelphur> JohnRobert: in a different pocket, I have a scottevest so it has cable routing between all pockets \o/
[12:30] <JohnRobert> oh right
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: aren't the losses greater when charging wirelessly?
[12:30] <JohnRobert> cool
[12:31] <JohnRobert> MartijnVdS: certainly.
[12:31] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: sure
[12:31] <Azelphur> I got 12k mAh in that thing, should compensate.
[12:31] <JohnRobert> induction charging is really inefficient
[12:31] <mungbean> does wireless charging create a lot of heat?
[12:31] <JohnRobert> probably not at that level
[12:32] <JohnRobert> who knows
[12:32] <JohnRobert> not me
[12:32] <Azelphur> I've been charging my phone for a while now and see no noticable rise in temperature
[12:32] <mungbean> i'd still keep it away from my gonads
[12:32] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: 1.2kmAh = 1200Ah ;)
[12:32] <Azelphur> mungbean: haha
[12:32] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: don't use two modifiers at once ;)
[12:32]  * Azelphur hides
[12:32] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: please?
[12:42] <popey> i plugged my battery into itself earlier by accident
[12:42] <BigRedS_> is that a nexus with a wireless charger?
[12:42] <popey> the charging light came on
[12:43] <popey> induction charger, yes
[12:43] <BigRedS> oh wow. I'm doubly wrong :/ Ages ago I made a bet that Apple would be the first to do it, and nobody would until Apple made it cool
[12:43] <BigRedS> and now it's been exclusively Nokia for a while, and then whoever Google got to make that...
[12:43] <popey> LG
[12:44] <popey> nexus 7 does it too IIRC
[12:44] <popey> (asus)
[12:44] <BigRedS> LG? Google really should buy a handset manufactuer...
[12:44] <directhex> ahem
[12:44] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: like Motorola?
[12:44] <directhex> palm pre.
[12:44] <MartijnVdS> aren't there 26 competing wireless charging standards or something?
[12:44] <directhex> from 2010
[12:44] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: probably
[12:44] <BigRedS> directhex: really? If I knew that i'd probably have bought one
[12:44] <directhex> wireless charging, via optional "touchstone" dock and replacement battery cover
[12:45] <BigRedS> it's a gimmick I've been waiting for for _years_
[12:45] <directhex> future models shipped with the battery cover
[12:45] <mungbean> kindle is a swindle. this book is available as books 1,2,3 http://www.amazon.co.uk/1Q84-Books-1-2-3/dp/0099578077 but not on kindle. you have to buy separate, and they are only ~50p less than the real thing
[12:45] <directhex> mungbean, talk to the publishers
[12:45] <mungbean> i clicked the link
[12:45] <mungbean> various times 6 months ago
[12:46] <BigRedS> I don't understand the problem. There's a dead-tree compilatoin of books 1-3 but for kindle you need to buy them separately for a total cost not a lot less than the real thing?
[12:47] <BigRedS> I mean, I understand *that* problem, is that the right one?
[12:47] <mungbean> no
[12:47] <mungbean> dead tree comp = £9
[12:48] <mungbean> kindle have to buy 1,2 together = £6 , and book3 separately = £6ish
[12:48] <mungbean> dead tree < kindle
[12:48] <BigRedS> oh, wow
[12:48] <MartijnVdS> that happens a lot in the US as well
[12:48] <mungbean> its 1328 pages. i don't want big book
[12:48] <BigRedS> I've not seen much of that. But I only buy really cheap books with my kindle...
[12:48] <popey> that makes sense
[12:49] <popey> you need to get rid of dead tree books
[12:49] <popey> they take up space
[12:49] <popey> ebooks do not
[12:49] <popey> so less motivation to drop the price to "shift" them
[12:49] <mungbean> but ebook more expensive = insanity
[12:50] <BigRedS> not really, they want to sell dead tree ones more than they do ebooks
[12:50] <mungbean> disagree
[12:50] <BigRedS> if they think people will pay more for the ebook than they will for dead tree then they will charge that way
[12:50] <mungbean> ultimately they want to sell only ebooks
[12:50] <BigRedS> not when they have a warehouse full of paper
[12:50] <popey> ebooks have vat too
[12:51] <mungbean> another option is to buy books 1,2 on kindle and get book3 from the library, but that's the only one in the library
[12:51] <popey> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/9216138/Why-do-ebooks-cost-so-much.html covers it
[12:51] <mungbean> i said "do you have books1,2?"
[12:51] <mungbean> no, not in the whole borough. "but you have to read 1,2 before 3"
[12:51] <mungbean> and it is a recentg book
[13:10]  * MattJ thinks he needs more signatures on his PGP key
[13:11] <MartijnVdS> MattJ: you ALWAYS need more signatures on your PGP key
[13:11] <MartijnVdS> everyone does!
[13:11] <popey> i do
[13:11] <popey> i have like.. none
[13:11] <MartijnVdS> popey: aren't there canonical geeks who can sign yours?
[13:12] <Azelphur> how is 13.10 these days? is it in a usable day to day state more or less?
[13:12] <MattJ> Since I sign software releases with mine, I feel it should be easy for them to find a trust path to me (else, what am I signing it for?)
[13:12] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: it's been usable for a while now
[13:12] <Azelphur> I'm still on 12.10 so thinking of jumping on a bit early and saving myself some hassle
[13:13] <Azelphur> cool
[13:13] <MartijnVdS> 13.04 is good anyway :)
[13:13] <Azelphur> I'll give the 13.10 daily a shot then :)
[13:13] <Azelphur> xubuntu, that is
[13:13]  * popey is staying on 13.04
[13:13] <Azelphur> popey: why?
[13:13] <popey> it works ☻
[13:13] <Azelphur> good answer :P
[13:14] <popey> dont feel the need to upgrade
[13:14] <Azelphur> yea, I'm upgrading because I have lots of out of date packages / lots of stuff that doesn't have builds for quantal any more
[13:14] <BigRedS> Azelphur: I stuck it on my laptop last night, seems good
[13:14] <BigRedS> so far
[13:14] <Azelphur> thinking of that, I should probably go 13.04 too, nothing has builds for 13.10 yet
[13:19]  * bigcalm ponders a key signing party at his wedding
[13:20] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: "My Big Fat Geek Wedding" ?
[13:20] <bigcalm> Ha
[13:22] <popey> excellent idea!
[13:32]  * neuro is sticking with 12.04 :P
[13:32] <neuro> support until 2017 ftw
[13:34] <bigcalm> LTS on servers. Nuts if you do it any other way :P
[13:34] <neuro> totally
[13:35] <neuro> lifecycle is too short for non-LTS releases
[13:35] <neuro> debian releases are too unpredictable
[13:35] <neuro> red hat/centos is ... well, red hat/centos
[13:35] <neuro> fedora on a server is just suicidal
[13:35] <neuro> and don't get me started on gentoo
[13:36] <neuro> oh good, the dogs in the houses on either side of me are talking to each other
[13:37] <davmor2> neuro: so you use Sles then right?  /me ducks for the bunker
[13:37] <neuro> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, no
[13:38] <neuro> now it's three dogs
[13:38] <neuro> SHUT UP!
[13:46] <popey> kinda wish I'd stayed on 12.04 on my laptop
[13:46] <neuro> can't you backup/reinstall?
[13:46] <popey> next time i get a new SSD I will go back
[13:46] <popey> yeah
[13:46] <popey> i resisted for so long
[13:46] <neuro> well, of course you *can* but i guess the point is do you want to :)
[13:47] <popey> i have backups
[13:47] <popey> i could wipe right now
[13:47]  * neuro is pondering ram + sshd upgrades for both MBPs
[13:47] <popey> ooh, thats a thought, i could go to 16GB in this maybe
[13:47] <neuro> main issue with it is that the only reasonably priced hybrid drives are seagate
[13:47] <neuro> and seagate = teh suck in my experienc
[13:47] <neuro> e
[13:48] <neuro> although 109 quid for 750GB 7200rpm HDD+32GB SLC SSD is pretty good
[13:49] <neuro> oops, 8GB SLC SSD :P
[13:49] <neuro> which is apparently "enough"
[13:51] <neuro> ram is probably the best thing for now, i'm constantly butting up against 8GB with so many tabs open in chrome
[13:54] <neuro> jings, ram is cheap!
[13:54] <MartijnVdS>  yeah.. I have 16GB in my machine..
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> of the fast stuff®
[13:55] <neuro> 98 quid for 2x8GB PC3-12800 and 101 quid for 2x8GB PC3-10600
[13:55] <neuro> lol
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> I don't know PC3-12800-style.. I know mine is 2133MG
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> MHz
[13:55] <neuro> THE FAST STUFF. COMING TO THEATRES AUGUST 9.
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> neuro: 2133 is PC3-17066, apparently
[13:56] <MartijnVdS> because.. reasons
[13:56] <neuro> jeez
[13:56] <neuro> lol
[13:56] <neuro> i still remember when a gig of ram was in the hundreds
[13:56] <neuro> of quid
[13:57] <MartijnVdS> neuro: I remember when a *meg* of ram was that expensive :)
[13:57] <neuro> then again, i still remember getting excited over getting 512Kbps ADSL
[13:57] <neuro> MartijnVdS: 256KB graphics cards!!!
[13:57] <neuro> waaaoooow
[13:57] <MartijnVdS> neuro: 256 colours!
[13:57] <MartijnVdS> neuro: AT ONCE
[13:58] <neuro> !!!!!
[13:59] <neuro> "WHAT SORCERY IS THIS"
[13:59] <neuro> and so on
[13:59] <neuro> #include <eeeeee-when-i-were-a-lad.h>
[14:00] <MartijnVdS> #include <magnets.h>
[14:00] <neuro> STAY AWAY FROM MY TAPE DECK, YOU FIEND!
[14:06] <neuro> hmm, email from sony
[14:06] <neuro> "Few days left to claim your Xperia™ smartphone"
[14:06] <neuro> ooooh
[14:06] <neuro> "When you buy a BRAVIA TV before the 14th July"
[14:06] <neuro> oh
[14:10]  * TheOpenSourcerer recalls paying ~£500 for a 64*MB* upgrade to my 486DX
[14:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> That was to replace the installed 32MB
[14:11] <popey> Ahhh, those were the days
[14:12] <popey> I probably still have some 30pin dimms here
[14:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> me too somewhere
[14:12] <bigcalm> Make for good key fobs
[14:12] <popey> brilliant idea
[14:12] <AlanBell> as does a 50 ohm terminator
[14:13] <neuro> popey: i have tons of the things
[14:13] <neuro> and stupid sized sparcstation dimms
[14:39] <SuperMatt> man, I feel like I must be doing something wrong with isc-dhcp-server6
[14:40] <SuperMatt> my clients will only get a ipv6 address if I manually run dhclient -6
[14:40] <SuperMatt> if I use network managler, it just doesn't pick up an address (hell, it doesn't even seem to talk to the server)
[14:41] <Azelphur> decided to be adventurous and move onto Ubuntu 13.10 \o/
[14:42] <SuperMatt> good luck!
[14:42] <Azelphur> yea, already having some fun lol
[14:42] <Azelphur> open terminal on second X screen? -> kill all other terminals and child applications.
[14:43] <Azelphur> that seems to be an issue with xfce-terminal though, none of the others do it *shrug*
[14:45] <SuperMatt> ok, so it seems that network manager and ipv6 dhcp is borked somehow
[14:45] <SuperMatt> I'll check for any bugs
[14:51] <SuperMatt> great, I'm seeing the same issue in fedora 19 too
[14:53] <neuro> maybe a problem with the dhcpd then?
[14:54] <SuperMatt> I don't know
[15:41] <popey> Azelphur: did you say you have a usb sound card?
[15:41]  * MartijnVdS has one
[15:41] <MartijnVdS> a _good_ one
[15:42] <popey> oh, just remembered i have a usb headset which is "quite good"
[15:42] <popey> better than the sound card in this lappy
[15:42]  * popey tries
[15:42] <MartijnVdS> xonar u3
[15:44] <popey> \o/ much betterer
[15:45] <MartijnVdS> yay
[15:49] <bigcalm> Is this a new bit of text in git? "Already up-to-date. Yeeah!"
[15:49] <bigcalm> I'm not sure I've seen it say "Yeeah!" before
[15:56] <AlanBell> do you have to read it with an Austin Powers voice?
[15:57] <MartijnVdS> it's probably a reference to that sunglasses meme?
[15:57] <MartijnVdS> from some kind of US tv show?
[15:57]  * MartijnVdS does't follow these things
[16:05] <BigRedS> I do worry when software I use starts making cultural references that I don't get
[16:06] <bigcalm> Makes you feel old?
[16:06] <MartijnVdS> software should stay out of the meme business
[16:06] <MartijnVdS> one apt-get moo is enough
[16:11] <brobostigon> how do i use pastebinit again to pastebin the output of a command?
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> command | pastebin
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> ?
[16:11] <brobostigon> thank you MartijnVdS
[17:49] <Azelphur> popey: I had one a long while ago, use a usb headset at the moment
[17:59] <directhex> steamsale? steamsale!
[18:00] <MartijnVdS> *click*
[18:01] <MartijnVdS> I silently repeat phrases to myself when i think i may have said something odd, when i do this i also mouth the words as i say them to myself
[18:01] <MartijnVdS> uh wahat
[18:01] <MartijnVdS> The Steam Store is experiencing some heavy load right now. Please try again later.
[18:01]  * MartijnVdS kills his pastebuffer.
[18:17] <Azelphur> Has anyone noticed in Ubuntu 13.10 ccsm settings aren't saved?
[18:18] <Azelphur> (P.S. I wish Canonical would stop breaking compiz)
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: happens all the time, since 11.10
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: same for all unity settings
[18:29] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: weird, didn't happen to me on 12.10
[18:30] <MartijnVdS> I have to re-set sloppy focus, auto-raise and several other settings ever other reboot or so
[18:30] <Azelphur> fun
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> there used to be a bug about it
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> but I can't find it now
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/1063617
[18:44] <knightwise> hey everyone
[18:44] <MartijnVdS> \o knightwise
[18:44] <knightwise> hey MartijnVdS how are you tonight
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> knightwise: a bit on the bored side, but fine :)
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> knightwise: wrote this earlier this week: http://blog.vandestreek.net/2013/07/playing-with-wpa2-enterprise-using.html
[18:45] <knightwise> I'm fighting the demons of iTunes and their proprietary music databases
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> poor you
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> stop buying Apple stuff then ;)
[18:46] <knightwise> managed to make a full export of my itunes library (based on my playlist structure)
[18:46] <knightwise> now trying to drag them into owncloud to see if I can access them via the browser
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> knightwise: have you tried http://www.vandestreek-bier.nl/ yet? :)
[18:48] <knightwise> cool
[18:49] <knightwise> but i don't drink beer unfortunately
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> knightwise: you must know someone who does though
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> knightwise: being from Belgium
[18:53] <knightwise> true
[18:53] <knightwise> ps : question
[18:53] <knightwise> whats wrong with the sources line for 12.04 on this page : http://software.opensuse.org/download/package?project=isv:ownCloud:community&package=owncloud
[18:53] <knightwise> echo 'deb http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/isv:ownCloud:community/xUbuntu_12.04/ /' >> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/owncloud.list
[18:54] <knightwise> it says "mallformed url" when i add it to the files
[18:55] <MartijnVdS> the extra ":" bits?
[18:55] <MartijnVdS> knightwise: try using %3a
[19:29] <diddledan> oddness. on bootup my options for the igb module aren't applied when the kernel loads it. ("options igb max_vfs=7" in /etc/modprobe.d/igb.conf) but removing the module and reinserting it does correctly reference the option
[19:38] <diddledan> my google foo is failing me
[19:40] <Darael> diddledan: Something to do with the initrd? (I'm guessing blind here, but I can't see how "sudo update-initramfs -u" could *hurt*, and it *might* somehow be part of it (although I'm not sure *how*...))
[19:41] <diddledan> it might be cached in the initramfs, I guess
[19:42] <Darael> That's what I was thinking.  Seems a bit odd, but maybe worth a try, no?
[19:42] <diddledan> ok, reboobing
[19:43] <diddledan> thank god I've got a second puter :-p
[19:43] <diddledan> (and a third, and a fourth, but that's by-the-by :-p)
[19:44] <diddledan> yup, it was the initrd
[19:44] <diddledan> it works fine now
[19:44] <diddledan> well thinked
[19:44] <Darael> Shiny.  Glad it worked.
[19:45] <Darael> O'course, that means it would've "magically" fixed itself upon the next kernel update anyway :-þ
[19:45] <diddledan> initrds are a black art to me these days now they're all automated. I remember building my own custom jobbies for Gentoo netboot back in the day, but modern stuff eludes me
[19:47] <diddledan> I think I'm gradually turning into a fuddy-duddy
[19:48] <diddledan> soon I'll be complaining that kids don't know what they've missed by growing up now rather than in the 90s
[19:49] <diddledan> remember snowy TV reception? kids today don't even understand that such a thing existed
[19:49] <diddledan> for kids today, tv is either working or broken. they have no concept of partial reception
[19:56] <Azelphur> Is the software center broken in 13.10 atm?
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: FM radio still works like that
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: AM radio if you want to demonstrate easily :)
[19:59] <diddledan> :-)
[20:00] <diddledan> true
[20:34] <Azelphur> Is there any way to tell APT to install old quantal packages from a repo, until the newer packages are available?
[20:39] <MattJ> Add quantal's repos to sources.list?
[20:39] <MattJ> it will just use the newer ones
[20:47]  * SuperMatt has two projects on the go right now
[20:48] <Azelphur> MattJ: but, there are no newer ones, that's the point
[20:48] <SuperMatt> 1) reinstall the laptop with saucy and btrfs (so I can finally get some exposure to it)
[20:48] <Azelphur> it's a third party repos that has no packages newer than quantal, and I'm on 13.10
[20:48] <SuperMatt> and 2) reorganise the data on my disks so they're less likely to die if something goes wrong
[20:48] <directhex> Azelphur, apt doesn't use distro-specific packages, it uses whatever is configured in sources.list
[20:48] <SuperMatt> s/die/lose all the data
[20:48] <directhex> Azelphur, assuming the dependencies resolve, it;'s fine to have a quantal ppa in post-quantal
[20:48] <Azelphur> ah
[20:50] <Azelphur> yep, this creates a packaging nightmare :P
[20:50] <Azelphur> looks like canonical renamed libudev0 to libudev1, it's breaking lots of things :(
[20:51] <MattJ> Right, that's where you hit problems :)
[20:51] <Azelphur> hehe
[20:51] <SuperMatt> chrome seems to have been bitten by it
[20:53] <diddledan> Azelphur: are you running your day-to-day activities on 13.10? i.e. is it stable enough for those that need some semblance of normality?
[20:53] <Azelphur> diddledan: I'm trying to, only been using it for a day so far
[20:53] <diddledan> ok
[20:53] <Azelphur> bumped into a few bugs, but doing ok, managed to work around most of it
[20:53] <diddledan> we're half-way through the dev-cycle now?
[20:54]  * diddledan googles the timeline
[20:54] <SuperMatt> and what a great cycle it has been so far
[20:54] <diddledan> saucy sausage? :-p
[20:54] <SuperMatt> I'm not ready to go saucy everywhere yet, but my lappy has been running it for a while now
[20:55] <SuperMatt> I'm not going to put mir on mine until it lands sans ppa though
[20:55] <SuperMatt> I do like a modicum of stability
[20:55] <Azelphur> wait, is 13.10 mir?
[20:55] <Azelphur> well, I'm using xubuntu 13.10, so probably not :P
[20:55] <SuperMatt> it will have mir, yes
[20:55] <Azelphur> yea, I have a feeling xubuntu won't adopt that.
[20:55] <SuperMatt> xfce will happily run on top of xmir
[20:55] <SuperMatt> probably not
[20:55] <Azelphur> SuperMatt: what about high performance apps?
[20:56] <Azelphur> like games
[20:56] <SuperMatt> I don't know about that right now
[20:56] <SuperMatt> I haven't done my own investigating yet
[20:56] <Azelphur> If they break games, I loose all faith in canonical, haha
[20:56] <SuperMatt> well, xmir should be able to run games
[20:56] <Azelphur> spend ages working to get big companies to seriously adopt Linux -> steam finally jumps on board -> break steam
[20:56] <Azelphur> :P
[20:56] <Azelphur> yea, hopefully :)
[20:57] <SuperMatt> might see a reduction in fps though
[20:57] <SuperMatt> who knows
[20:57] <SuperMatt> I certainly don't
[20:58] <Azelphur> compiz is gonna be interesting too.
[20:58] <SuperMatt> compiz will be gone
[20:58] <SuperMatt> but it's working fine in mir at the moment
[20:58] <SuperMatt> aint nobody got time for compiz
[20:58] <SuperMatt> not no more, no how
[20:58] <Azelphur> haha
[20:58] <Azelphur> I'm all for a compiz / X replacement
[20:58] <Azelphur> I'll probably cling to them until it's ready for actual use though
[20:59] <MattJ> as long as it supports 54 monitors?
[20:59] <Azelphur> yup
[20:59] <diddledan> my main worry over replacing X is the network transparency
[20:59] <SuperMatt> what I really really really really hope for is that I can still bind the top left window to expose all apps
[20:59] <diddledan> losing**
[20:59] <MattJ> diddledan, nobody cares :(
[20:59] <SuperMatt> I think a lot of people care
[20:59] <SuperMatt> but I also think there are better ways of doing things like that
[21:00] <MattJ> Yes, we could use the cloud
[21:00] <diddledan> they seem to suggest that vnc is better. I fail to see it.
[21:00] <diddledan> I like my remote windows to integrate seamlessly
[21:00] <SuperMatt> it's a tricky one
[21:00] <diddledan> not appear inside a virtual desktop
[21:00] <SuperMatt> small apps certainly work well using X forwarding, but I've seen fewer and fewer apps that work with it these days
[21:01] <SuperMatt> at least, work *well*
[21:01] <Azelphur> yea, networked X is very slow
[21:01] <diddledan> firefox is one notable problem with X forwarding - run firefox remotely and you end up spawning a local binary
[21:01] <Azelphur> VNC is very slow too
[21:01] <Azelphur> but stuff like teamviewer (I know, horrible proprietary) is very fast
[21:01] <Azelphur> I wish we had something open source that could keep up with tv :)
[21:02] <SuperMatt> I've heard that some of the technical apects of X forwarding just don't match the needs of today
[21:02] <SuperMatt> I can't for the life of me remember what they are though
[21:02] <Azelphur> no doubt, X is like 30+ years old now
[21:02] <SuperMatt> I think it has something to do with the traffic being sent back and forth, and that there's simply too much of it with modern day apps
[21:04] <SuperMatt> it's a good time to be a linux enthusiast, that's for sure
[21:04] <SuperMatt> I was getting worried that everything was going to become stable!
[21:04] <SuperMatt> thank glob for all these changes
[21:05] <Azelphur> haha
[21:48] <diddledan> mythtv rocks most socks
[21:48] <diddledan> though only when frontended by xbmc
[21:48] <diddledan> or maybe I should use tvheadend?
[21:49] <Azelphur> diddledan: my parents are still running plain old myth, maybe I should move them over to XBMC
[21:50] <diddledan> now that you can buy the mpeg2 codec for the raspi, it makes a sweet frontend
[21:50] <Azelphur> hehe
[21:58] <shauno_> I was a bit bummed by xbmc on the pi.  it didn't seem to be quite enough to do most menu transitions
[21:58] <diddledan> yeah, the menu transitions are a bit sluggish, but video is fine
[22:00] <ali1234> SuperMatt: X defines drawing primitives like lines and rectangles which compress very well due to being vector based
[22:00] <ali1234> the problem is that nothing uses them any more
[22:00] <ali1234> Qt and Gtk just request buffers from the server and then draw into them directly
[22:00] <ali1234> when remoting that just has to be compressed and sent as-is
[22:01] <ali1234> removing remoting from the newer stacks doesn't fix this problem at all, it just makes it someone else's problem
[22:06] <ali1234> even though X is really bad at remoting these days, it is still better than anything else. you only have to compare with VNC to see why: VNC is really laggy and sometimes does not update at all. this is because VNC can't see which areas X is repainting so it either has to send the entire screen (probably as a really blurry JPEG) or try to compare successive frames and send the difference (which is really slow). it can't tell software not to use overlay
[22:08] <ali1234> even if X has to send compressed bitmaps, it can still optimize this by knowing exactly which parts of which windows have been redrawn without doing any extra work, and it can tell clients which features like overlays are available for use.
[22:10] <ali1234> Azelphur: i can X host mplayer playing SD content over 100mbit or HD over 1000mbit ethernet. can't do that with VNC, or anything else i have ever tried. sound is a problem though :P
[22:10] <Azelphur> ah, that's cool
[22:11] <ali1234> but if you want to stream TV, just stream the raw transport
[22:11] <ali1234> this is pretty much guaranteed to be the best way to do it
[22:11] <Azelphur> but then, fairly not useful for anything
[22:11] <ali1234> why not?
[22:11] <ali1234> mplayer and vlc can both play this
[22:11] <Azelphur> if you're gonna stream video, you're gonna do it an easier way, like sftp
[22:11] <ali1234> i would be highly surprised if xbmc could not
[22:12] <ali1234> sftp? for a stream? wuuuut?
[22:12] <Azelphur> why not? I always do it
[22:12] <ali1234> because it makes no sense
[22:12] <Azelphur> just sftp://user@blah in nautilus, double click file, done
[22:12] <ali1234> it's a stream
[22:12] <ali1234> it's not a file
[22:12] <ali1234> it has no beginning and no end
[22:12] <Azelphur> oh, ok then
[22:13] <ali1234> you connect, you get mpeg packets
[22:13] <ali1234> this is how IPTV works
[22:13] <Azelphur> fun :)
[22:13] <ali1234> DVB is practically IPTV anyway
[22:14] <ali1234> with 6 tuners and the right software you can have everyone on your network watching every channel simultaneously and not need more than about 300mbits of bandwidth
[22:14] <ali1234> regardless of how large your network is
[22:15] <Azelphur> sweet :o
[22:15] <ali1234> assuming all of it supports broadcast packets
[22:15] <diddledan> or multicast
[22:15] <ali1234> and also no need to every reencode anything
[22:15] <Azelphur> ali1234: myself I just have XBMC hooked up to NFS
[22:15] <ali1234> sorry yeah multicast is what i meant :)
[22:17] <diddledan> I've yet to play with multicast
[22:17] <diddledan> I have no idea how it works
[22:17] <ali1234> it's fun
[22:18] <diddledan> one thing mythtv is crap at is channel numbering
[22:18] <ali1234> yeah really
[22:18] <ali1234> i hate retuning because it always messes it all up
[22:20] <diddledan> it's put 5* in slot 2
[22:20] <diddledan> 5USA in 4
[22:20] <diddledan> 5+1 in 5
[22:20] <diddledan> QVC in 6
[22:20] <diddledan> it's fscked
[22:21] <diddledan> hmm, has my washing machine finished? I don't hear it anymore
[22:22] <diddledan> ...
[22:23] <diddledan> is there a simple way of getting mythtv to reorder the channels per their standard numbers?
[22:27] <Azelphur> diddledan: not last I checked.
[22:56] <ali1234> diddledan: there is but i forgot what it is
[22:57] <ali1234> diddledan: there's also a hard way where you write a script that fixes the database directly, which is my preferred method of wrangling mythtv
[23:19] <Azelphur> http://imgur.com/a/Z7VWc theres a dude selling these on #bitcoin-otc, awesome.
[23:19] <Azelphur> folks who have shops here, do it. xD
[23:43] <ali1234> neon seriously?
[23:43] <ali1234> why not LED?
[23:54]  * Azelphur shrugs
[23:54] <ali1234> does anyone here actually have a shop?
[23:55] <Azelphur> I'd be surprised if there isn't at least one computer shop person in here
[23:56] <ali1234> i don't recall anyone ever mentioning such a thing...
[23:56] <ali1234> lots of consultants and sysadmins but no physical shops
[23:56] <Azelphur> ali1234: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3832397/Photos/2013/Jun/2013-07-11-132206.jpg my latest crazy idea, btw :)
[23:57] <Azelphur> USB battery, induction charger, gonna put the induction charger behind the pocket in my coat, insert phone into pocket, phone charges.
[23:57] <ali1234> what is it?
[23:57] <ali1234> hahaha
[23:57] <ali1234> tha's genius
[23:57] <Azelphur> ty :D
[23:57] <ali1234> patent it immediately
[23:57] <Azelphur> hahaha
[23:57] <ali1234> design a way to weave the charger into the fabric of the pocket
[23:57] <Azelphur> yea I haven't actually seen anybody trying this before, but it serously looks like it'll work
[23:58] <Azelphur> gonna get some magnetic tape tomorrow to put on the charger
[23:58] <Azelphur> then I'm hoping the phone will sorta clamp onto it and stay put
[23:59] <ali1234> if you make the whole pocket be a coil then you don't even need magnets
[23:59] <Azelphur> funky


[02:41] <TheMarius> hey anyone here running ubuntu on surface pro 3 and does it run well (with toutch etc)?
[09:18] <cc> hello
[09:18] <cc> can we use sougou at ubuntu phone?
[09:18] <cc> i search all the information by google,but no answers
[11:20] <matv1> Sil2100 Canonical Sytem Image for OTA 14 still ´Expected: 2016-11-14´. that could do with an update I think
[11:22] <matv1> sil2100 if a new realistic date can be set.
[11:23] <sil2100> matv1: yeah, let me poke Pat about it
[11:23] <sil2100> Right now we're still struggling as oxide is not releasable
[11:24] <matv1> yes I know. And on a personal note I would say https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1478319
[11:24] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1478319 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Wifi doesn't reconnect to AP if it uses the same SSID than another AP" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[11:24] <matv1> could really do with a fix
[11:25] <matv1> which is also on the OTA 14 list
[11:27] <matv1> sorry i meant to say #1598584
[11:28] <matv1> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-network/+bug/1598584
[11:28] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1598584 in Canonical System Image "wifi slows to a crawl when bluetooth is enabled" [Critical,In progress]
[11:59] <ifitaintbroke> Just tried to install ubuntu touch on my oneplus one. all went well until where ubuntu-device-flash says: Rebooting into recovery to flash.
[12:00] <ifitaintbroke> The device rebooted, but is stuck in the boot logo (where it says powered by android) for like 10 minutes?
[12:00] <ifitaintbroke> I'm afraid I might have fried my bacon... :-D
[12:03] <ifitaintbroke> any ideas what I can/should do now?
[14:06] <mterry> bfiller, heyo -- for bug 1629009 both messaging-app and dialer-app are marked as fix released or fix committed.  But I can't find the branches for them or see them fixed.  Do you know where the MPs are for those fixes so that I can include them in the silo?
[14:06] <ubot5`> bug 1629009 in unity-scopes-api (Ubuntu) "Does not work inside a snap due to hardcoded paths" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1629009
[14:10] <bfiller> mterry, let me check, I know the snaps are in the store
[14:10] <bfiller> possible the code never got merged
[14:10] <bfiller> renato__, ^^^^
[14:11] <bfiller> mterry, actually wanted to ask you about that - I noticed they were preisntalled in the unity8 snap, but shouldn't we be using the snaps instead?
[14:11] <bfiller> mterry, same with browser
[14:12] <renato__> mterry, yes there is snap packages for these apps on store. But probably this bug does not appear on desktop, due the lack of modem. But I have plans to test it with boiko helps
[14:13] <bfiller> renato__, where are the MR's? and did they land in trunk?
[14:13] <renato__> bfiller, yes they landed already
[14:13] <renato__> bfiller, but not for this bug specific. Was more related with packaging stuff
[14:14] <mterry> bfiller: fair question about snaps/debs.  I think we were using debs as bootstrapping.  And I'm leery to remove them until we can install snaps from the store and launch them  :)
[14:14] <mterry> renato__: yeah then I don't think this bug is fixed
[14:15] <mterry> Although if the snaps work, maybe it won't matter when we switch to using those...
[14:17] <mterry> But at least that bugs tracking status should be correct and the two packages should be set off Fix Committed
[14:17] <mterry> Though I wonder if the snaps do work without such a fix
[14:20] <bfiller> mterry, I'll fix that and we'll take a look today to see if we can fix the issues with launching as deb
[14:23] <mterry> bfiller: though I suppose dialer and messenger in particular can be dropped as built-in debs.  Likely uninteresting for most desktop users.  I think they were just added so that we'd have some apps to open
[14:24] <bfiller> mterry, right, dialer and messaging aren't too interesting on desktop until we add SIP and other messaging (non-sms) support
[14:31] <mterry> kgunn: any objection to dropping dialer-app and messaging-app from the u8 snap?  seem like uninteresting apps for desktop
[14:36] <kgunn> mterry: yeah, i think that's fine.... is webbrowser already in ?
[14:37] <kgunn> if not we should work to add that
[14:37] <kgunn> bfiller: ^ fyi
[14:37] <mterry> kgunn: yes and no.  It's normally in, but I think we hit a bug in snapcraft the last silo snap build that excluded it.  Working to reproduce and file if so
[14:38] <bfiller> kgunn, mterry : once we can launch snaps, the browser is snapped and in the store
[14:38] <mterry> cool, that would make sense ya
[14:39] <kgunn> bfiller: nice, so just install from terminal
[14:39] <mterry> kgunn: I'm guessing we'd want to continue keeping USS and u8 together?  They are tightly coupled
[14:39] <kgunn> or could install from store scope
[14:39] <kgunn> mterry: yeah uss should def stay in u8
[14:39] <bfiller> mterry, yes for sure about USS and u8, was always the plan
[14:39] <kgunn> imho
[14:39] <bfiller> +1
[14:39] <mterry> alright, will just drop the dialer and messenger apps for now
[14:40] <kgunn> pmcgowan: ^ just fyi
[14:40] <mterry> and keep an eye on being able to drop the browser
[14:40] <kgunn> pmcgowan: i guess that's a question, not sure what the expectations are about browser and u8-snap...should it always "be in the u8 snap"
[14:40] <pmcgowan> kgunn, sounds fine
[14:40] <kgunn> or ok to remove it, and have user install it
[14:41] <mterry> heh, looks like we're installing a few apps I didn't realize -- becuase they don't show up in a scope.  Wonder why
[14:41] <mterry> Contacts and Media
[14:41] <pmcgowan> kgunn, I would put it in for now?
[14:42] <pmcgowan> mterry, media probably has a no show in the desktop file, but contacts should show
[14:42] <mterry> pmcgowan: ack
[16:51] <mterry> tedg: in the u8 snap, address-book-app doesn't show up in App scopes because its Exec= line is an absolute path.    It does for the icon right?  Makes sense to do so for Exec
[16:52] <tedg> I think /bin/sh maybe?
[16:53] <mterry> tedg: yeah /bin/sh is use case
[16:53] <tedg> It's the only one I can think of though, even stuff like Python would be worst case bind mounted into your snap.
[16:53] <mterry> tedg: we could also make address-book-app not use absolute path...   But your call
[16:54] <mterry> tedg: you could check if prepended path is valid, else leave it alone
[16:54] <tedg> Well, we should probably do both. People are likely to crib from our snaps, but I think that the apps we've got are a good example of bugs we should fix :-)
[16:54] <tedg> mterry: The problem is that "valid" is so hard in to calculate the mount container that snaps are put into :-/
[16:55] <tedg> mterry: We'd have to look in their base snap, because it could be different than the "/" for us.
[16:56] <mterry> tedg: I'm just looking at legacy case
[16:56] <tedg> mterry: Hmm, I think I might be changing my own mind... we can't have apps with / in their desktop file because there's no way to resolve that.
[16:57] <tedg> mterry: Ah, I see.
[16:57] <tedg> mterry: Legacy in the U8 snap.
[16:57] <mterry> right
[16:57] <tedg> So really just for system settings long term ;-)
[16:58] <tedg> Yeah, let's just fix that then. We can detect it easily enough.
[17:11] <mterry> renato__: you also have address-book-app marked fix released for bug 1629009, but it still has problems looking up Unity.InputInfo due to a non-prefixed UNITY8_QML_PATH
[17:11] <ubot5`> bug 1629009 in messaging-app (Ubuntu) "Does not work inside a snap due to hardcoded paths" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1629009
[17:11] <mterry> er, fix committed
[17:13] <mterry> renato__: also, its desktop file uses an absolute path for its Exec when maybe it shouldn't.  We can work around that in UAL but might be easier to just use "address-book-app" instead of full path
[17:15] <renato__> mterry, this is how it work in the past. if you have another solution now I can update it
[17:15] <mterry> renato__: for the desktop file?  I mean my suggestion is just switching "/usr/bin/address-book-app" for "address-book-app"
[17:15] <mterry> renato__: for UNITY8_QML_PATH, needs actual code patch
[17:16] <renato__> mterry, ok for dekstop I can update
[17:16] <renato__> mterry, all ours apps uses full path. because this is the way that was working in the past
[17:16] <renato__> mterry, and about the icon?
[17:17] <mterry> renato__: we have code for icon to prefix correctly, I believe
[17:17] <mterry> just harder to do it for path
[17:17] <mterry> Exec path
[17:17] <mterry> When it might be /bin/sh or whatever
[17:17] <renato__> mterry, our icons uses full path too
[17:17] <mterry> But I think tedg is working on something there anyway
[17:17] <mterry> renato__: right.  UAL prefixes $SNAP for you there
[17:18] <renato__> mterry, do you prefer ted to finish the work. Than we can test? Because this was changed in the past already
[17:19] <mterry> renato__: most apps I can see (USS, terminal, dialer, messager, etc) use non-absolute Exec paths
[17:19] <renato__> mterry, I remember that the store reject the app if the path was wrong
[17:19] <renato__> mterry, ok I will try
[17:19] <mterry> renato__: so I don't know what the state of art is.  But you can either fix the desktop or not.  Just telling you that it doesn't show up in app scope right now
[17:20] <mterry> renato__: but having it show up isn't much good if you don't also fix the hardcoded unity8 path
[17:20] <renato__> mterry, yes probably because something has changed. In the past was working nice
[17:20] <mterry> renato__: working nice in the unity8 snap?  I'm sure it all works fine in normal contexts (phone, desktop)
[17:20] <mterry> renato__: but u8 snap is new, I don't think it ever worked well in there
[17:20] <renato__> mterry, unity debian
[17:21] <mterry> renato__: right.  That's fine.  I'm not talking about that though.  Specifically the unity8-session snap we've been trying to get working
[17:21] <mterry> That's what bug 1629009 is about for example
[17:21] <ubot5`> bug 1629009 in messaging-app (Ubuntu) "Does not work inside a snap due to hardcoded paths" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1629009
[17:23] <renato__> mterry, ok, we tested this against unity8 debian.
[17:23] <renato__> mterry, I will update the apps
[17:24] <renato__> mterry, probably I app that I fixed has hardcoded paths on desktop file
[18:32] <mterry> tedg: https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/policykit-unity8/snap-root/+merge/311057
[18:47] <tedg> mterry: Does that work? Are we putting policykit in the snap itself?
[18:47] <tedg> mterry: Seems like it'd have to be in core?
[18:47] <tedg> (or something else non-unity8)
[19:15] <mterry> tedg: haven't tested end-to-end yet.  Just realized that the snapd login service is policykit-protected.  And u8 needs that package to talk to polkit
[19:16] <mterry> tedg: there are several other services we rely on that need policykit, we usually just special-cased phablet in Touch
[19:16] <tedg> mterry: K, thinking that we'll probably need another way to install that conf file.
[19:16] <tedg> mterry: like it can't live in our snap
[19:16] <mterry> tedg: that MP is unity8 specific, why wouldn't it live in our snap?
[19:16] <mterry> tedg: policykit itself, sure, that can be outside
[19:16] <tedg> mterry: The agent would be in our snap, but the conf file needs to install outside.
[19:17] <tedg> mterry: To wherever the outside policykit wants them.
[19:17] <mterry> tedg: which conf file?
[19:17] <mterry> the one in the MP is for upstart, which is inside the snap
[19:18] <tedg> mterry: Oh, wait, you're right. Sorry I was confused.
[19:18] <tedg> mterry: I thought we had to install one in /usr
[19:18] <tedg> mterry: Makes sense, +1 :-)
[19:19] <mterry> tedg: any objection to me pushing it through a silo by itself to xenial+zesy?
[19:19] <tedg> mterry: nope
[19:19] <mterry> cool thx
[19:48] <bfiller> mterry, tedg: is it known/expected that I can't run a snap from the terminal in unity8 snap session? I can install the snap but don't see it on the path
[19:49] <mterry> bfiller: interesting...  I haven't tried that yet, but I would have guessed /snap/bin would be on the path
[19:50] <tedg> bfiller: in general running from the terminal won't work anyway, you'll need to use ubuntu-app-launch to start apps.
[19:52] <mterry> tedg: but for non-graphical apps...
[19:52] <mterry> It does seem like /snap/bin isn't in the PATH.  But should be, I'd wager
[19:52] <tedg> I guess, but you can't run anything from it anyway.
[19:52] <tedg> It is the same snap-on-snap problem.
[19:53] <bfiller> tedg, I guess when we can launch them from scope it won't be an issue
[19:53] <bfiller> tedg, just trying to figure out a way to test snaps until we fix the launching from scope
[19:55] <tedg> I think I might have just cracked the nut on that one... so hopefully soon.
[19:56] <renato__> mterry, about the desktop files. Which one are you using on unity8 snap? That one that is shiped inside of setup/gui/<dekstop> or the one that is installed with the app?
[19:56] <tedg> Though, honestly, systemd is like being handed a bowl of nuts.
[19:56] <tedg> renato__: setup/gui/appname.desktop
[19:56] <bfiller> renato__, are you trying to figure out why the icon is not showing up?
[19:57] <renato__> bfiller, no I am trying to understand which file mterry asked me to remove the hardcoded paths
[19:57] <renato__> the file inside setup/gui/ is not hardcoded
[19:58] <mterry> renato__: I was using the one installed with the app in /usr/share/applications (right now, unity8 snap bundles the address-book-app deb inside of it)
[19:58] <tedg> Ah, sorry. I was confused on the question. My answer was for other snaps.
[19:59] <renato__> mterry, sorry I do not understand. Address-book-app that is on store, contains both desktop files
[19:59] <bfiller> renato__, he's using the deb
[19:59] <bfiller> from overlay
[19:59] <mterry> yup
[19:59] <mterry> not the snap
[20:08] <tedg> mterry: Okay, rebuilding UAL in the silo. Do you have a snap rebuild planned?
[20:09] <mterry> tedg: not planned no
[20:09] <tedg> mterry: K, I'll kick one off once this finishes
[20:09] <bfiller> mterry, are you seeing address book app show up in scope? (I'm not). Or is that the issue you are trying to get resolved with renato
[20:09] <mterry> tedg: oh I did want to build online-accounts
[20:09] <mterry> tedg: but that can happen before or after snap build
[20:10] <mterry> bfiller: yes.  Additionally, once it does show up, it doesn't display anything due to hardcoded paths to unity8's qml modules
[20:10] <bfiller> ack
[20:10] <mterry> Which I don't know how you solve when the app is its own independent snap...
[20:10] <mterry> But at least in this use case you can solve
[20:56] <mterry> jdstrand: I'm getting this from media-hub while trying to play a song from the dash in the in-progress unity8 snap: "Error while executing the underlying io_service: apparmor::ubuntu::Context: Invalid profile name snap.unity8-session.unity8-session" -- what would a valid profile name look like?
[21:06] <jdstrand> mterry: that is a valid profile name for snappy. I suspect that the checks it has need to be adjusted from the click world (<name>_<app>_<version>) to the snap world (snap.<name>.<command>)
[21:07] <mterry> jdstrand: oh huh it's worse than that -- media-hub has some particular apparmor integration and is expecting unity to represent as "unity8-dash"
[21:07] <mterry> jdstrand: ok so not anything to do with you, I jumped the gun  :)  thx
[21:08] <jdstrand> np
[21:09] <jdstrand> mterry: note that jhodapp_ is aware of some libapparmor changes that could cleanup this code. I don't know the status of that work but before you go and fix it, you might want to sync with him
[21:10] <mterry> k, though I think this is just internal to media-hub
[21:10] <jdstrand> mterry: yes, that is what I mean. media-hub can be cleaned up to use the libapparmor more effectively
[21:10] <jhodapp_> mterry, yeah there's some work to be done there
[21:10] <mterry> jdstrand: ah got ya
[21:11] <jdstrand> there were some changes to the libapparmor api that came in after media-hub implemented those checks
[21:12] <mterry> jhodapp_: is there an existing bug for media-hub?  I'm looking for something to track
[21:12] <mterry> I can make one
[21:12] <jhodapp_> mterry, hang on, let me finish the meeting I'm in and I'll search quickly
[21:12] <mterry> jhodapp_: cool no rush
[21:12] <jhodapp_> mterry, there might be one but it might not longer describe what you need
[21:42] <jhodapp_> mterry, ok I think this bug will cover what you're asking for...I was trying to find an email that jdstrand sent me explaining the situation better but can't find it...https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/media-hub/+bug/1489489
[21:42] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1489489 in apparmor (Ubuntu) "The org.freedesktop.DBus.GetConnectionAppArmorSecurityContext() method is deprecated" [Medium,In progress]
[21:44] <tyhicks> jhodapp_: I don't think that's the right bug
[21:44] <jdstrand> jhodapp_: https://trello.com/c/ftSp1Ogp/649-implement-aa-query-file-fd-to-fix-toctou-issues-with-using-aa-query-file-path
[21:44] <jhodapp_> jdstrand, thanks! forgot where you had added that info
[21:45] <mterry> jhodapp_: hmm, I'm not sure if that bug will fix my issue (maybe during the cleanup, the offending code will be removed...)
[21:45] <mterry> jhodapp_: thanks for pointer
[21:45] <jhodapp_> mterry, ok if you wouldn't mind filing a new bug referring to that trello card that should work
[21:46] <mterry> jhodapp_: ok will do.  tomorrow though, gotta sign off soon
[21:46] <jhodapp_> mterry, same here, cheers
[22:09] <renato__> mterry, hey I am getting this error while trying to snapcraft unity8: E:Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
[22:09] <renato__> mterry, any I idea what could cause that?


[04:17] <baldpope> am I blind - where is the grub.conf with the kernel entries on ubuntu 22?
[04:21] <blahdeblah> baldpope: Under grub 2 it moved to being a generated file - see /etc/grub.d/README and the other files in that dir
[04:21] <blahdeblah> Also /etc/default/grub is the main place you change the settings
[04:25] <baldpope> yea - inspecting that now - trying to add serial console support to attempt attaching ipmi serial console for remote control (if/when needed)
[04:25] <baldpope> looks like after making a change, I need to run grub-update or something?
[04:30] <blahdeblah> yep - update-grub
[04:31] <blahdeblah> The man page on that should be pretty good
[04:31] <baldpope> yea - i guess I jumped the gun on asking
[04:31] <blahdeblah> All good! :-)
[04:31] <baldpope> so used to seeing /boot/grub.conf
[04:31] <blahdeblah> You won't be seeing that around much any more. ;-)
[04:39] <baldpope> trying to add the serial console output from grub (for access to console over ipmi serial interface) - is there a way to verify the serial setting is active ?
[04:59] <baldpope> found it via dmesg, still not getting serial console over ipmitool -
[04:59] <baldpope> eh - an issue for tomorrow
[12:52] <P-NuT> Sup all.
[12:52] <P-NuT> I need to allow a normal user to edit /etc/dnsmasq.conf but dont want to give him root access.
[12:52] <P-NuT> Can I do this via visudo?
[13:02] <ravage> it is possible via sudo