[12:01] <mdz> jblack: what about gcc?
[12:01] <SteveA> I was in favour of keeping gcc out of desktop
[12:01] <SteveA> but, I'm against splitting the python standard library
[12:01] <jblack> mdz: iirc, gcc didn't come in desktop.
[12:01] <mdz> different issue, to my mind
[12:01] <jblack> I'll buy that.
[12:13] <sabdfl> i'm happy to discuss distutils again
[12:33] <mdz> sabdfl: it's 600k of .py files
[12:33] <mdz> no sensible reason to split it from the main python package that I see
[12:33] <mdz> it seems historical, since they had previously been distributed separately
[12:33] <sabdfl> main concern to me is its function
[12:34] <sabdfl> given that i want python to be a first class citizen on ubuntu
[12:34] <sabdfl> let's switch to -devel
[12:34] <sabdfl> mdz:^
[02:16] <BradB> kiko: dude, panther ROCKS
[02:16] <kiko> BradB, tla speed pr0n ?
[02:16] <BradB> not yet
[02:16] <BradB> installing other stuff, but there will be much porn soon
[02:16] <BradB> got a new powerbook today
[02:17] <BradB> 15", 1.5 GHz w/ superdrive, uNF
[02:17] <BradB> i keep saying to myself "sheesh, it feels like i got a new computer", then i'm like "oh yeah, i did"
[02:18] <kiko> BradB, how much did it cost?
[02:18] <BradB> $4K CAD
[02:18] <BradB> i doubled my hardware specs
[02:19] <kiko> hmmm
[02:19] <kiko> how much is that US$?
[02:19] <BradB> 1.5 GHz G4, 80 G, 512 MB RAM, Panther, built-in bluetooth.
[02:19] <BradB> these days? $4K. :)
[02:20] <kiko> hah!
[02:20] <kiko> you know
[02:20] <BradB> about 3250
[02:20] <kiko> I've been wanting to buy a powerbook for a long time now
[02:20] <kiko> but they are so damn expensive!
[02:20] <BradB> this one was worth it
[02:20] <kiko> I wonder
[02:20] <BradB> dude, this thing adjusts to ambient lighting
[02:21] <kiko> can you get a cheap one down there?
[02:21] <kiko> ack
[02:21] <BradB> if you turn of the lights, the screen dims
[02:21] <kiko> that's killer
[02:21] <BradB> turn em back on, goes brighter again
[02:21] <kiko> heh
[02:21] <BradB> it's insane
[02:21] <BradB> cheap one down where?
[02:21] <kiko> up in canada I guess. :)
[02:22] <BradB> heh
[02:22] <BradB> i can get one for the price i got one, that's about it
[02:22] <BradB> this was the souped up 15" though
[02:22] <BradB> the other 15" is like 600 cheaper
[02:25] <BradB> kiko: several of the apps are way, way better now too
[02:25] <BradB> both at the good ole unix level, and os x's apps
[02:26] <BradB> e.g. i hated that ls -h or df -h didn't work in jaguar. tar didn't even have --exclude
[02:26] <BradB> now they're all sane again
[02:26] <BradB> Mail.app is actually looking like a reasonable (eye-candy) replacement for mutt.
[02:27] <BradB> it does cool little things too, like when i make a new rule, and i choose a header on which to make that rule, it auto-fills it with the value from the email i'm looking at
[02:27] <BradB> and does what appears to be good threading finally
[02:27] <kiko> heh
[02:28] <kiko> neat that the unix apps are coming forward
[02:28] <kiko> so
[02:28] <kiko> how much is a cheap PB up there?
[02:28] <BradB> the hardware's way better too. i don't have to knock over my beer anymore trying to finagle my iPod's firewire into the back of the machine, because all the ports are along the sides.
[02:28] <BradB> kiko: are you trying to get the newest model?
[02:28] <kiko> nop
[02:28] <kiko> the cheapest model that is still decent
[02:29] <BradB> hm
[02:29] <BradB> that'd probably be the other pb i have. i'm not looking to sell that one though. not sure.
[02:29] <kiko> it can be 12-13i
[02:29] <BradB> k, you mean? :)
[02:30] <BradB> er, no
[02:30] <kiko> heh
[02:30] <kiko> i for inches :)
[02:30] <BradB> aye
[02:30] <BradB> there's only a 12, i guess
[02:30] <kiko> yeah.
[02:30] <kiko> there's a sony 13i wide-screen that runs at 1280 which rocks
[02:30] <BradB> you can get a brand new 12-inch for 2099 CAD
[02:30] <kiko> but since I need something powerpc..
[02:30] <kiko> really?
[02:31] <BradB> http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/canadastore.woa/71303/wo/3F3HnbOzBIKq3mjqmqCHqCxYROp/<IP_ADDRESS>.<IP_ADDRESS>.<IP_ADDRESS>.0.1.0
[02:31] <BradB> somehow i paid $50 less than that page advertises for my pb
[02:32] <BradB> "Free Shipping", heh.
[02:33] <kiko> heh
[02:37] <kiko> that's not too expensive, is it?
[02:38] <BradB> nope
[02:38] <BradB> no point getting used
[02:38] <kiko> hey, if used is half-price, there is :)
[02:38] <BradB> well, yeah :)
[02:39] <kiko> are there such good deals?
[02:40] <BradB> there might be, but none that i know of offhand, mainly because waiting until a good deal comes along was not really an option for me
[02:40] <BradB> (because having exactly one machine on which to work was hectic)
[02:40] <kiko> yeah.
[02:41] <sabdfl> BradB: drool
[02:42] <sabdfl> sounds awesome
[02:42] <BradB> heh heh
[02:42] <sabdfl> is the fs better in panther?
[02:42] <BradB> it's the same one
[02:42] <BradB> i'm benchmarking running z3 unit tests right now
[02:42] <sabdfl> what's the diff between hfs+ and ufs?
[02:44] <sabdfl> for a new Z3 context object, should I subclass anything other than (object)?
[02:44] <BradB> there are several: what you call the thing that you mount, the path separator, case sensitivity, etc.
[02:45] <BradB> "context object"?
[02:45] <BradB> context is just something; something is a fairly vague thing
[02:45] <BradB> you mean a content class?
[02:47] -dmwaters(dmwaters@dmwaters-gentoo.staff.freenode)- {global notice} Hi all! We appologize for that uh interuption. a script was ran that accidently restarted several of the ircds. Blame alindeman :) Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
[02:48] <sabdfl> yes, a content class
[02:48] <sabdfl> i've got a content class that works fine, except that I can't use set_schema
[02:48] <sabdfl> it doesn't work
[02:48] <sabdfl> but it works fine if i use set_attributes
[02:48] <BradB> it needs to implement a schema
[02:48] <BradB> or, maybe it doesn't
[02:49] <sabdfl> it does
[02:49] <BradB> what's the error?
[02:52] <sabdfl> forbidden attribute
[02:52] <sabdfl> 'sbizarre
[02:52] <BradB> are you sure the things you mention in set_schema are in the schema?
[02:52] <sabdfl> works just fine with set_attrbutes="x y z"
[02:53] <sabdfl> yes, as Attribute()'s
[02:55] <BradB> mm
[02:56] <BradB> http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Zope3Book/contentobject.html explains it in more detail. Maybe you need to inherit from IContained.
[02:56] <BradB> we probably want to be using set_schema consistently
[02:59] <BradB> but hm, SQLBase is ultimately just inheriting from SQLObject.
[03:09] <sabdfl> i think this is an egg-man bug
[03:11] <BradB> heh
[04:33] <jblack> I'm trying to do that blasted zope3 tutorial again. I've got an import problem on the buddydemo. Any zope guys conversant with it?
[05:30] <jblack> Ok. figured it out. the programmer tutorial is wrong. It shouldn't go in src/buddydemo, it should go in lib/python/buddydemo
[05:31] <BradB> jblack: sounds like you're using a release. perhaps it was assuming an svn checkout.
[05:45] <jblack> BradB: You know zope3?
[05:45] <BradB> I know how to do some things in Zope 3.
[05:47] <jblack> Possibly enough to tell me what went wrong in the programmer tutorial this time?
[05:47] <jblack> I'm getting a gripe in buddyemo/configure.zcml, line 6.0 "NameError: name 'zope' is not defined
[05:48] <jblack> I just did slides 11-20
[05:48] <jblack> (and I'm more than happy to scp up the instance to your machine for you to look at
[05:49] <sabdfl> BradB: figured out a little bit of the zope3 widget machinery
[05:49] <BradB> sabdfl: Able to use things that inherit from object, hopefully.
[05:49] <BradB> (with set_schema)
[05:50] <BradB> jblack: it'd be easier if you just paste your buddydemo/configure.zcml at paste.husk.org
[05:50] <sabdfl> BradB: no, didn't get that right
[05:51] <BradB> jblack: I bought a new powerbook btw. It's shiny.
[05:51] <sabdfl> i do suspect a zope3 issue there
[05:51] <jblack> http://paste.husk.org/1848
[05:51] <BradB> sabdfl: What things did you learn about widgets?
[05:51] <sabdfl> basically, how to subclass Text, and the TextAreaWidget, so that the bug edit form is a bit neater
[05:52] <sabdfl> it's a shitload of work for a very small bit of neater
[05:52] <BradB> ah, from the chapters in the Z3DG?
[05:52] <jblack> bradb: Yeah
[05:52] <sabdfl> but i suppose once it's done it's done
[05:53] <BradB> yep
[05:53] <sabdfl> i'm trying to figure out how we make the generated forms look as good as the handcrafted ones
[05:53] <sabdfl> if it can be done, then i'll buy into the autogenerated thing
[05:54] <BradB> sabdfl: I think it's very, very doable. Afterall, for 80-90% if the add/edit forms we haven't, there probably isn't a need for them to look really customized (uniformity and consistency are, afterall, Good Things)...it's just a matter of figuring out what visual knobs can be turned with CSS and the like.
[05:54] <BradB> s/we haven't/we have/
[05:55] <sabdfl> same is probably true of the forms we haven't :-)
[05:55] <sabdfl> i've figured out the actual widget bit
[05:55] <BradB> heh
[05:55] <sabdfl> now need to figure out the wrapper
[05:55] <sabdfl> the bit that puts the summary etc there
[05:55] <sabdfl> the text
[05:55] <sabdfl> right now it uses the title
[05:55] <BradB> jblack: it's one of two problems. either your pythonpath isn't correct or you need to import that module specifically in zcml.
[05:56] <sabdfl> but the hand crafted fields look a lot better, present more info
[05:56] <BradB> jblack: (probably the latter)
[05:56] <sabdfl> i'm going to try to figure out the rest tomorrow
[05:56] <jblack> Yeah. Odds are that ubuntu has a sane importpath.
[05:56] <jblack> pardon. sane pythonpath.
[05:56] <BradB> sabdfl: sounds promising though
[05:57] <jblack> it would be odd that a zope instance doesn't import zope though, wouldn't it?
[05:57] <sabdfl> night all
[05:57] <BradB> night sabdfl
[05:58] <jblack> sleep well boss.
[05:58] <BradB> jblack: there are easy ways of testing this though
[05:59] <BradB> mm, no, scratch that (there are, but scratch that)
[05:59] <jblack> I haven't gotten the unit testing working yet either.
[05:59] <jblack> Ohhh, yes I have.
[06:01] <jblack> Though something still ain't right there.
[06:01] <jblack>   >>> bud = Buddy('Bob', 'Smith')
[06:01] <jblack>   >>> bud.name()
[06:01] <BradB> jblack: how are you starting z3?
[06:02] <jblack> I was trying bin/runzope
[06:04] <jblack> btw, before I added the interface stuff, I was able to add buddies in the web interface.
[06:05] <BradB> can you paste the whole traceback? i'm learning here too, because i've never seen an error like that, but it's almost surely something really straightforward, given enough context.
[06:07] <jblack> http://paste.husk.org/1849
[06:08] <dilys> Merge to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>a basic widget for bug summaries (patch-678)
[06:11] <BradB> jblack: for one, you've got a syntax error in the zcml
[06:11] <BradB> for ".interfaces.IBuddy"
[06:12] <jblack> I believe you, but that's a straight paste from the tutorial
[06:13] <BradB> through an = sign in there and see if that changes anything
[06:13] <BradB> after than, try commenting out that require and see what happens
[06:13] <BradB> s/than/that/
[06:13] <jblack> http://paste.husk.org/1850
[06:15] <jblack> (thats slide 16)
[06:15] <jblack> There's nothing in the name method. Maybe the slide cut it.
[06:16] <BradB> nope, it's an interface
[06:16] <BradB> but there's either a syntax error in that python code as well (indentation error), or a mix of tabs and spaces.
[06:18] <jblack> I did find the missing = in configure.zcml though
[06:21] <jblack> oh. found a missing import
[06:21] <jblack> and a missing import re, and it works.
[06:23] <jblack> Now if I could just figure out why it stopped listening on port 8081...
[06:27] <BradB> hehe
[06:28] <jblack> Thanks for the help bradb. I'm back on track
[06:29] <BradB> cool, no prob
[06:37] <jblack> WHoo!
[05:12] <sabdfl> SteveA: around?
[09:01] <SteveA> hey sabdfl
[09:01] <sabdfl> hiya SteveA
[09:02] <sabdfl> well it's been an interesting tour of zope3 form autogeneration this weekend :-)
[09:02] <SteveA> is it hot or not?
[09:02] <sabdfl> i'm trying to establish if i can get some of our autogenerated forms to looks as god as the hand-crafted ones
[09:02] <sabdfl> wel...
[09:02] <sabdfl> large amounts of effort for little return so far
[09:02] <sabdfl> skimpy docs, the usual
[09:03] <sabdfl> wanted to lob a few eggs in your direction but didn't want to disturb the w/e
[09:03] <SteveA> when I used it on a project a while ago, I ended up nor using the standard "edit form" stuff, but using a custom variant on it.
[09:03] <sabdfl> seems that stub knows a bit about it and has been laying the foundations in malone
[09:03] <SteveA> I haven't kept up with changes to it, though
[09:04] <sabdfl> you would be better placed than me to do custom variants on machinery that's a little outside my immediate ken :-)
[09:04] <sabdfl> anyhow, i'm slowly coming to grips with it
[09:04] <sabdfl> slowly
[09:05] <SteveA> the thing I found was that is was very easy to waste a lot of time making a particular form work, if that form goes outside one of the assumptions behind the autogenerated form machinery.
[09:05] <SteveA> if you notice these soon enough, and do them manually, it's okay
[09:05] <SteveA> if you don't... lots of painful and non-obvious coding around things
[09:06] <sabdfl> well, limi has set the bar quite high in terms of the look we should expect from our forms
[09:06] <sabdfl> i think we are going to have to produce a set of custom field and widget classes
[09:06] <sabdfl> i want to hammer on this a while and then we can discuss a general system for the team
[09:07] <sabdfl> i am thinking at the moment that we might produce a mixin class for widget and field
[09:07] <sabdfl> because mainly i want to put the same decoration on any kind of field
[09:07] <sabdfl> but there are also potentially custom requirements for context-aware fields
[09:07] <SteveA> not sure we'd need new fields, except where we've got a truely new kind of thing
[09:08] <SteveA> I think pov have done a lot of work on these
[09:08] <SteveA> certainly marius has been filing and fixing bugs in it recently
[09:08] <sabdfl> current fields allow for title, description, required
[09:08] <sabdfl> yes, found him on a couple of proposals related to this
[09:09] <sabdfl> which sounded rather sane
[09:10] <sabdfl> you have a good weekend?
[09:10] <SteveA> not bad.  more of a lazy weekend, catching up on sleep and generally hanging out
[09:10] <SteveA> yours?
[09:11] <sabdfl> tried to sleep but had total insomnia
[09:12] <SteveA> try more exercise?
[09:13] <SteveA> then again, I find if I exercise too much, it stops me from sleeping
[09:14] <sabdfl> yes i think i'm the latter stage
[09:14] <sabdfl> too much to think about at the moment
[09:14] <sabdfl> ok, so i'm using the normal addform machinery
[09:15] <sabdfl> with a custom pt
[09:16] <sabdfl> there's this sort of useful-looking hook:
[09:16] <sabdfl>         <div metal:define-slot="extra_info" tal:replace="nothing">
[09:16] <sabdfl>         </div>
[09:16] <sabdfl> how do i pass information to that?
[09:16] <SteveA> do you know about METAL ?
[09:16] <SteveA> If not, I should explain just a little about that first.
[09:17] <SteveA> we use two namespaces in page templates: tal: and metal:
[09:17] <SteveA> the metal: is for "macro processing".  The metal directives get processed first, and then the resulting template is treated as a whole for tal: expressions.
[09:18] <SteveA> think of it like #includes.
[09:18] <sabdfl> yes
[09:19] <SteveA> The div above defines a slot called "extra_info".  You can fill it from your template with <div metal:fill-slot="extra_info">
[09:20] <sabdfl> This is at the top of the pt:
[09:20] <sabdfl>       metal:use-macro="context/@@malone_template/master"
[09:20] <SteveA> where is that hook that you pasted?
[09:21] <sabdfl> about halfway into the page
[09:21] <SteveA> in which page?
[09:21] <sabdfl> lib/canonical/launchpad/templates/default-addform.pt
[09:22] <sabdfl> i've actually copied it to bug-addform and started to use that
[09:23] <sabdfl> i'm adding some of the plone-style widget decoration
[09:23] <sabdfl> fieldset etc
[09:25] <sabdfl> also, i'll want to figure out this line:
[09:25] <sabdfl>         <div metal:use-macro="context/@@form_macros/widget_rows" />
[09:25] <sabdfl> where is widget_rows defined?
[09:26] <sabdfl> hey it's sunday don't boil too many eggs on my account
[09:27] <sabdfl> ok, i found widget_macros.pt
[09:28] <sabdfl> in lib/zope/app/form/browser
[09:28] <sabdfl> i'll want to customise that, how do i do that?
[09:28] <sabdfl> workrave
[09:29] <SteveA> in the zcml directive for addforms, there's a 'template' attribute, and a 'default_template' attribute
[09:33] <sabdfl> the template is what i'm customising already
[09:33] <sabdfl> what's the default template?
[09:33] <SteveA> oh, red-herring
[09:34] <sabdfl> :-)
[09:35] <SteveA> as far as I can tell, the extra_info slot is for when you're using the standard zope template, and you want to be able to do certain customizations without coming up with a new template of your own.
[09:35] <sabdfl> can the view push data into the slots at all?
[09:35] <sabdfl> oh, so the standard rendering of this uses another template and fills that slot?
[09:36] <SteveA> I think the way you're supposed to provide your own template for this is that you write a minmal template that uses macros from the default template
[09:36] <sabdfl> how about the second question, about customising widget_macros.pt
[09:36] <sabdfl> oh right
[09:36] <SteveA> so, you don't end up copy-pasting the code from zope, but just including the bits you want
[09:36] <sabdfl> so instead of copying it
[09:36] <SteveA> wish there were docs on this, though
[09:37] <sabdfl> just write a really small one that pushes in heading and extra info etc
[09:37] <sabdfl> ok, that's quite nice
[09:37] <sabdfl> because we can do a single master addform template for launchpad
[09:37] <SteveA> yeah, I guess so.  I think you'd need some way of specifying that you want to use macros from the standard add form
[09:37] <SteveA> yeah, that would work
[09:37] <SteveA> in fact, we'd need a StandardMacros object then
[09:37] <sabdfl> now, about the second questions
[09:38] <sabdfl> widget_macros
[09:38] <sabdfl> how do i override that to be something else?
[09:38] <SteveA> that's what we did in zope3 -- rather than have to remember which template exactly has the macros you want, you have an object that collects macros from a bunch of useful "basic" template
[09:38] <SteveA> s
[09:39] <sabdfl> i want to redefine widget_rows
[09:39] <SteveA> in the configure.zcml of that package, I see that you can get the widget_macros.pt template as a view on anything, called widget_macros
[09:40] <SteveA> well, there are two ways to do this
[09:40] <SteveA> you can redefine the widget_macros view for the launchpad layer
[09:41] <SteveA> most straightforward way is to make your own copy-paste-altered version of widget_macros.py
[09:41] <sabdfl> right, just copy it and customise it and make it available under a different name
[09:41] <SteveA> er .pt
[09:41] <SteveA> yes
[09:41] <SteveA> but, make it available under the *same name*
[09:41] <SteveA> but in the launchpad layer
[09:41] <sabdfl> o.....k....
[09:42] <SteveA> by using the launchpad layer, we're saying "we can override the defaults in zope in the context of the launchpad application"
[09:42] <SteveA> rosetta and malone layers extend the launchpad layer
[09:42] <sabdfl> how do i register it for the launchpad layer?
[09:43] <SteveA>   <browser:page
[09:43] <SteveA>       for="*"
[09:43] <SteveA>       name="widget_macros"
[09:43] <SteveA>       layer="canonical.launchpad.layers/LaunchpadLayer"
[09:43] <SteveA>       permission="zope.Public"
[09:43] <SteveA>       template="widget_macros.pt"
[09:43] <SteveA>       />
[09:43] <sabdfl> i'm going to put the registration into zcml/bug.zcml for the moment, because those are the add/edit forms i want to fix first
[09:43] <SteveA> with the template in the correct place, of course
[09:43] <SteveA> so, whatever is currently using widget_macros will get it as context/@@widget_macros
[09:43] <sabdfl> is there a more appropriate zcml file for this?
[09:44] <SteveA> and, it will automatically get your version inside launchpad
[09:44] <SteveA> launchpadlayer-stuff.zcml ?
[09:44] <SteveA> launchpad-widgets.zcml ?  launchpad-forms.zcml ?
[09:44] <SteveA> the latter, I suppose
[09:45] <SteveA> this is all about how we want forms to look in launchpad
[09:46] <sabdfl> let me get it right in the bug stuff, then we can move it
[09:46] <SteveA> k
[09:46] <sabdfl> can i replace * with something more localised?
[09:47] <sabdfl> canonical.launchpad.layers/LaunchpadLayer
[09:47] <sabdfl> is the / intentional?
[09:47] <SteveA> no, it is wrong
[09:47] <SteveA> should be a .
[09:47] <SteveA> you could replace * with IMaloneBugThing or whatever you're working on
[09:47] <SteveA> if the change is meant only for that one thing
[09:48] <sabdfl> is it the interface of the context?
[09:48] <SteveA> yes, exactly
[09:48] <sabdfl> or the container that has the addform?
[09:48] <SteveA> I expect this will be looked up as context/@@widget_macros
[09:48] <SteveA> oh, that could get a bit more complex
[09:48] <SteveA> there's IAddings involved there -- views on views
[09:48] <SteveA> erm -- maybe stick with "*"
[09:49] <SteveA> I should go make food, and then watch donnie darko on dvd.
[09:50] <sabdfl> weird movie
[09:52] <SteveA> picked up the dvd at the airport for three quid
[09:52] <SteveA> as the director's cut was out for about 20
[09:53] <SteveA> and being heavily advertised
[09:55] <sabdfl> directors cut might be interesting
[10:05] <sabdfl> SteveA: can't seem to access my custom copy of the widget
[10:05] <sabdfl> it's not being used, the old one is
[10:49] <SteveA> As a debugging measure, try declaring it not in the launchpad layer, but without a layer attribute, and declare it for zope.interface.Interface, not for *
[10:50] <SteveA> that's a crappy way of getting it registered, but if it works, it shows that you're not doing anything wrong, and for some reason the layer isn't being used.
[10:50] <SteveA> (it was too late at night to watch a full film after eating, so we've settled for an episode or two of futurama instead)
[11:22] <sabdfl> still around?
[11:22] <sabdfl> stevea: ^?
[11:24] <SteveA> yeah, just about
[11:26] <sabdfl> yo
[11:26] <sabdfl> so i'm now crafting the actual template
[11:26] <sabdfl> the one which will fill the slots of the default_template
[11:27] <sabdfl> and i've no idea what that one's header should look like

[11:27] <sabdfl> ?
[11:27] <sabdfl> should it refer explicitly to the launchpad-addform.pt?
[11:27] <sabdfl> or is that all handled by the machinery?
[11:27] <sabdfl> and here's where it gets interesting
[11:27] <sabdfl> the addform template itself is clearly referring to a master template
[11:28] <SteveA> is launchpad-addform.pt registered as a view on anything?
[11:28] <sabdfl> so can these templates be layered in a stack?
[11:28] <sabdfl> yes, it works as the view on a bug add
[11:28] <sabdfl> i' now trying to generalise it
[11:28] <sabdfl> so that for new add forms we just make a tiny template
[11:28] <sabdfl> that has the appropriate document description, headings etc
[11:28] <SteveA> provided each template is registered as a view on something, sure, you can use many of them using bits of each other
[11:29] <sabdfl> ok, so let's assume there are three of them
[11:29] <sabdfl> master
[11:29] <SteveA> the general model is using a macro, which has slots in it
[11:29] <sabdfl> default-addform
[11:29] <sabdfl> table-addform
[11:29] <sabdfl> in the default-addform, when there is a fill-slot, that would fill a slot in the master?
[11:30] <sabdfl> and when there's a define-slot, that's something the table-addform can fill?
[11:30] <SteveA> assuming default-addform has a use-macro refering to a macro of the master template
[11:31] <SteveA> you're filling a slot of whatever macro you're inside of, in the code of the template the fill-slot is in
[11:32] <sabdfl> so for the table-addform do i need a use-macro?
[11:33] <sabdfl> or does the addform machinery automatically do that
[11:33] <sabdfl> given that it has default_template for the default-addform
[11:34] <SteveA> from the code I saw, the default_template is what is used if you don't supply a "template"
[11:35] <sabdfl> erm that doesn't make sense to me
[11:35] <SteveA> you don't need to supply a 'template' in your zcml
[11:35] <sabdfl> why have both "template" and "default_template" attributes
[11:35] <SteveA> there is a default 'template' that is used instead
[11:35] <SteveA> 'default_template' isn't meant to be used in zcml
[11:35] <sabdfl> ah.
[11:35] <SteveA> it can be used if you subclass the class, I think
[11:35] <sabdfl> that's not what i understood previously
[11:36] <sabdfl> it seems as if this addform, which is copied from the zope dir, is designed to be used as an "intermediate" template
[11:36] <SteveA> I'm still not sure I understand -- I only skimmed throught the code.
[11:36] <sabdfl> as i described above
[11:36] <sabdfl> in any event, say i want to refer to the template directly, from another template
[11:36] <sabdfl> how do i do that?
[11:36] <SteveA> I suppose it would use the macros and slots of the master template
[11:37] <SteveA> if you want to use macros from a template
[11:37] <SteveA> then first you need to get to the template.  usually, they are registered as views on an object.  so, context/@@view_name
[11:37] <sabdfl> what would be the name?
[11:38] <SteveA> for widget_macros.pt it was widget_macros
[11:38] <SteveA> it is whatever it is registered in zcml as
[11:38] <sabdfl> hmm.. this is getting murky again
[11:38] <sabdfl> ok, here's what i understood
[11:38] <sabdfl> and what makes some sense
[11:39] <sabdfl> that it's pssible to define a general site-wide template
[11:39] <SteveA> where you want to use a particular macro, you put  metal:use-macro="context/@@view_name/macro_name"
[11:39] <sabdfl> and then a custom template will use that one
[11:39] <SteveA> if you explicitly use the site-wide template's macros in your custom template, yes
[11:40] <SteveA> the building blocks you have are metal:use-macro="context/@@view_name_of_template_with_macros/macro_name"
[11:40] <SteveA> and filling slots in that macro inside the element you chose to use the macro from
[11:40] <SteveA> usually, we suse the macro on the whole template (the html element)
[11:41] <SteveA> and fill the "body" slot, (or "page" slot or "content" slot) and perhaps others
[11:41] <SteveA> that's the most basic way to use macros
[11:41] <sabdfl> ok, this will take some fiddling
[11:41] <SteveA> you can also use macros to include any parts of another template where you can 1. get at the template and 2. that template has defined appropriate macros around the parts of it you want to reuse elsewhere
[11:41] <sabdfl> do the attributes of the macro override the attributes of the element in the calling document?
[11:42] <SteveA> you mean the element where you say "metal:use-macro" ?
[11:42] <sabdfl> yes
[11:42] <SteveA> note that this isn't "calling" at all.  it will become very confusing if you think of it like that.
[11:42] <SteveA> it is "including"
[11:42] <sabdfl> ok, so they supplement them
[11:42] <SteveA> you're building up a synthetic page template (that you'll never see) from parts of other templates plus your own
[11:43] <SteveA> that whole template is then "executed" in terms of its tal:
[11:43] <SteveA> in the element where you say "metal:use-macro", I think the whole element disappears
[11:43] <SteveA> but, I may be mis-remembering
[11:44] <SteveA> basically, the whole element disappears, except where you have slots inside it
[11:44] <SteveA> yeah -- that must be so, because of how in the simple use of metal, you put use-macro in the html element of your template
[11:44] <sabdfl> que?
[11:44] <sabdfl> so basically, a use-macro in the html element wipes out the document?
[11:44] <SteveA> that nukes your html element, and in fact your whole template, except where you have said "metal:fill-slot"
[11:45] <SteveA> yeah
[11:45] <SteveA> use-macro in an element says "I want what the other template says for this element.  except where I fill its slots"
[11:45] <sabdfl> cant be
[11:45] <sabdfl> let me check
[11:48] <sabdfl> blow me down, seems true
[11:48] <sabdfl> can you have both fill-slot and define-slot elements inside a use-macro?
[11:48] <sabdfl> for layered templates?
[11:52] <SteveA> yeah
[11:52] <SteveA> it can get complex pretty quickly, though
[11:52] <SteveA> especially as the exact "include" nature of macros is a bit subtle
[11:55] <sabdfl> yeah, this default-addform is fun
[11:55] <sabdfl> is has a use-macro in the html
[11:55] <sabdfl> then it fill-slot's the "main" slot
[11:56] <sabdfl> inside that, it has both define-macro ("formbody" and "addform" etc) and define-slot elements
[11:56] <SteveA> maybe you can draw a "map" of it in dia?
[11:56] <SteveA> might help with maintenance
[11:57] <sabdfl> night
[11:57] <sabdfl> will try to write it up once i've got it working the way i want


[01:25] <concretesledge> i have a problem with my repository list, i installed Ultimate Edition with Kubuntu
[02:08] <katnip> valerie has it been released here in states yet?
[02:08] <katnip> east coast
[02:09] <katnip> if we have been updating/upgrading for sometime, how can we tell when it's released then
 where do you obtain ultimate edition, aaaand WTf is that?
[02:35] <ca_cabotage> hey all, does anyone know what time today kubuntu 18.04 LTS will be released for download?
[02:53] <Phylter> Can't you download the beta now and just use apt to update once it's finally released?
[02:54] <Phylter> Beta 2 actually seems really stable to me. It's what I'm using right now.
[03:46] <valorie> there is no Ultimate Edition
[03:46] <valorie> they might have meant the latest daily ISO
[03:46] <valorie> you can dl the RC or beta as you prefer
[03:46] <valorie> and just update tomorrow
[04:30] <BionicMac> valorie: i386 testcases have begun. See offtopic. =)
[04:31] <valorie> \o/
[07:01] <jonah> Hi can anyone please  help me get my sound working on Kubuntu 17.10? I have kubuntu installed on an Asus T100TA Transformer and I have no sound at all from Phonon / Pulseaudio...
[07:01] <jonah> I've read online various fixes and threads about sound not working on ubuntu or with alsa but don't know about Kubuntu
[07:03] <valorie> I never had any sound issues in 17.10, but am about to get off irc for the night
[07:03] <valorie> !sound
[07:04] <valorie> that troubleshooting link always worked for me before
[07:04] <jonah> valorie: ok thanks will check it...
[07:29] <Arthur_D> I guess there's not much use in asking when the release will be out today?
[07:29] <Arthur_D> it's probably ready when it's ready :)
[07:29] <Unit193> Yep.
[07:29] <Kon-> #ubuntu has an !isitoutyet command
[07:29] <Arthur_D> ah cool
[07:30] <Unit193> !isitout | Here too.
[07:30] <Arthur_D> usually I'm not so impatient, but gonna be stuck on a couple airports for some hours today so I wanted to spend it doing something productive ;)
[07:32] <valorie> a release before it's ready -- not so good
[07:32] <Arthur_D> not sure if they will appreciate me torrenting a live ISO tho
[07:32] <valorie> ever tried to each a cake that's not quite baked?
[07:32] <Arthur_D> :D
[07:32] <Arthur_D> good point
[07:32] <Unit193> valorie: Ever tried cookies before they're baked? ;)
[07:32] <valorie> yes
[07:33] <valorie> better when done to perfection!
[07:33] <Kon-> Arthur_D, you could try the daily and update it later today
[07:33] <Arthur_D> hmm yeah I guess. Or I could wait till tomorrow, wouldn't hurt either
[07:34] <Arthur_D> endless possibilities!
[07:34] <Kon-> But then you still don't have anything to do at the airport except spam !isitoutyet
[07:34] <Arthur_D> haha exactly
[07:34] <Arthur_D> I could just check the website though
[07:35] <Arthur_D> and not annoy you guys too much
[07:36] <Arthur_D> I'm also involved with an open source project, certainly not as large as a distro but I appreciate the fact that rushed releases are never a good idea
[07:37] <Arthur_D> luckily we just release whenever we feel like it ;)
[07:38] <Kon-> That's what Chakra Linux does. That's not a slam on them, but it's their actual release model
[07:38] <valorie> Debian does that as well
[07:39] <Kon-> True, Debian's release schedule is a general window
[07:39] <Kon-> "around 18 months from now"
[07:40] <Arthur_D> we try having at least one release per year, but sometimes it's been two. Generally it's one a year
[07:42] <ibm6659> halo
[07:43] <ibm6659> is anybody out there ?
[07:43] <Kon-> Hey
[09:21]  * BionicMac brews coffee...
[09:57] <wal> How long for 18.04? It's late here and I should go to bed...
[10:09] <Kon-> wal, if you're in NZ, you should probably go to sleep
[10:10] <alket> hi, in Quassel irc client, on wizard, the proposed connection is named Lubuntu IRC and autojoins #lubuntu channel.
[10:13] <acheronuk> wal: definitely go to bed
[10:33] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[10:37] <wal> OK goodnight. Kubuntumorrow!
[11:10] <Shibe> when ubuntu 18.04 is out, how will I as a kubuntu 17.10 user upgrade?
[11:10] <Shibe> will apt dist-upgrade work?
[11:12] <BluesKaj> Shibe,no, use sudo do-release-upgrade
[11:12] <mparillo> I think it is more like a do-release-upgrade, but, yes, it should work when announced. All that said, I prefer to take a good backup, test it, and then do a clean install.
[11:12] <Shibe> ah
[11:12] <Shibe> thanks
[11:12] <mparillo> Yeah, what BluesKaj said.
[11:12] <Shibe> thought do-release-upgrade was a joke command at first though
[11:12] <Shibe> heh
[11:13] <BluesKaj> make sure you update and upgrade 17.10 first just for safety's sake
[11:23] <tkeller> I want to upgrade from 17.10 to 18.04, but do-release-upgrade shows that there is no new release available. Am I doing something wrong or do I have to wait for some hours?
[11:23] <acheronuk> !isitoutyet
[11:24] <tkeller> thanks
[11:25] <acheronuk> we don't have an ETA. ubuntu is looking at bugs in their live session at the moment
[11:26] <BluesKaj> to those who are interested register here and you'll receive an email when bionic hits the repos https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce
[11:29] <Talles> Thanks BluesKaj
[11:29] <BluesKaj> np
[11:39] <Dragnslcr> My company's Cisco VPN uses a web page for login. Can the System Settings UI or OpenConnect handle that, or do I need to use Cisco's client?
[11:43] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, there's a cisco vpn compatible client in the repos called vpnc\
[11:44] <BluesKaj> you'll find it in the software center for reference or install
[11:46] <bigLoove> Hello guys! I have a weird bug I guess, I need to sudo update-grub after every shutdown otherwise the encryption prompt at boot will not occur
[11:46] <bigLoove> Anybody heard about this or can help me?
[11:52] <Dragnslcr> BluesKaj- I think vpnc is for the "older" Cisco VPN. We use AnyConnect, which I think is handled by OpenConnect instead of vpnc.
 Hello kubuntu  doesn't detect my correct resolution if I put with CVT. I got weird colors
 2560*1080
[11:54] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, openconnect client is also available as a cisco compatible client
[11:56] <BluesKaj> Neyder, CVT?
[11:56] <Dragnslcr> BluesKaj- yeah, I've tried both the command line and System Settings, and it doesn't accept my login. Cisco's client works because it can open the web page to do the login.
[11:57] <Dragnslcr> I was just wondering if OpenConnect supports that functionality
[11:59] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, well install openconnect and find out ...i use a vpn in the cli , but it's not cisco
[12:06] <Dragnslcr> BluesKaj- yup, I've tried it, and it didn't seem to work. I was just wondering if anyone knew if OpenConnect is supposed to support it or not.
[12:06] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, well its ays so in muon
[12:07] <BluesKaj> says so
[12:07] <BluesKaj> !openconnect
[12:08] <BluesKaj> !OpenConnect
[12:09] <BluesKaj> that's odd it's listed in the software center and muon
[12:09] <Dragnslcr> It does? I don't see anything in the description about web page login
[12:10] <Dragnslcr> That's the specific feature that I need
[12:11] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, you may need to install  network-manager-openconnect as well
[12:19] <Dragnslcr> BluesKaj- it's already installed
[12:27] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, perhaps you shoul contact your cisco server and ask for the command that will resolve the login page
[12:29] <Mrokii> Hello. Whenever I restart my System (Kubuntu 17.10), I get a popup saying "Extra packages can be installed to enhance functionality for Firefox". But when I click on it an try to install/update Flash, that ends with an error message saying "An error occurred while applying changes". Does anybody know what causes this or how I can deactivate this annoying popup?
[12:30] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, usually the there's a .txt file in /etc/openconnect which contains your username and password which is read by the server when connecting, that's how most vpns work afaik
[12:31] <BluesKaj> Mrokii, yeah, righjt click on it and choose hide
[12:32] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, so you shouldn't need a login page
[12:47] <Mrokii> BluesKaj: I'll try that next time it pops up, thanks.
[12:57] <Dragnslcr> BluesKaj- I suspect it's because they send a code via SMS as a second factor
[13:01] <BluesKaj> Dragnslcr, ok understood, extra security, a bit of a pita tho :/
[13:01] <Dragnslcr> Yep
[13:01] <Dragnslcr> The Cisco client works fine, so it's not a big problem. I was just hoping to be able to use OpenConnect instead.
[13:08] <BluesKaj> openconnect is cisco's proprietary vpn protocol service and client afaik ..
[13:47] <releaseHour18_04> hello...today is 26/04/2018 the day on which the final release of UBUNTU 18.04 was scheduled
[13:47] <releaseHour18_04> do we know WHEN more or less K U B U N T U  18.04 will be downloadable
[13:47] <releaseHour18_04> ?
[13:48] <acheronuk> releaseHour18_04: not yet. ubuntu release team are fixing some last minute bugs with their live session. so no firm ETA yet
[13:49] <releaseHour18_04> ok...but in general, ubuntu and kubuntu have the same moment of publication or is there a gab?
[13:51] <acheronuk> we all release together
[13:53] <acheronuk> ubuntu handles publishing all the images, and turning on the new metainfo so release upgrader knows there is a new release available
[14:05] <Mrokii> Hello. Seems something went wrong when upgrading from 17.10 to 18.04. For some reason, Gnome got installed during the upgrade-process, and also my root-filesystem went 100% full just before obsolete files should have been removed. I can start the system, but it seems that the nvidia-driver (although seemingly installed) isn't used. Any thoughts what I can do?
[14:06] <diogenes_> fresh re-install
[14:08] <Mrokii> That's the last thing I want to do If I can prevent it.
[14:10] <Mrokii> Trying something else. Bye until later, maybe.
[14:13] <Mrokii> For the record, everything works fine again. Tried installing another version of the nvidia-driver. No reinstallation necessary.
[14:17] <user|55092> Hi, when will be kubuntu 18.04 released?
[14:18] <Dragnslcr> !isitoutyet
[14:18] <Mrokii> Hm, well, I did upgrade to 18.04 a short while ago.
[14:19] <user|55092> About when will be ISO image?
[14:20] <alok_> when will be download link for kubuntu 18.04 up?
[14:22] <user|12816> 18.04 download link?
[14:23] <Dragnslcr> !isitoutyet
[14:23] <dbrass> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2018-April/date.html
[14:24] <dbrass> check for yourself but don't DDOS the mailing list with F5 ;)
[14:24] <krosonp> dbrass: lol
[14:27] <flash_go_away> hi all, i am happily running Kubuntu 17.10 kde 5.12.4 and 4 gigs of ram im having two or three problems i still cant find any answers too resolve
[14:29] <flash_go_away> running firefox with google map causes a total system freeze. from that freeze i cant get to a shell or do anying but alt sysreq REISUB
[14:30] <flash_go_away> should i down grade firefox from 59.0.2
[14:30] <flash_go_away> is there a crash log i can go explore to see whats up
[14:31] <mparillo> flash_go_away: I had that when my VM tried to use HW acceleration.
[14:32] <flash_go_away> im not on a vm but that sound like a ram issue too. is HW acceleration somehting i kill in firefox config
[14:33] <flash_go_away> ok cool found how to do that will give it a try thanks
[14:33] <flash_go_away> next
[14:35] <flash_go_away> all my kubuntu machines when restarted get a kde box asking me to install Flash i uncheck and click cancel but it comes back after every time i reboot
[14:35] <flash_go_away> is there some setting im missing that says adobie flash go away for ever?
[14:39] <mparillo> I believe that was removed in BB (to become 18.04 today).
[14:40] <alok_> when will download link for kubuntu 18.04 be up?
[14:41] <flash_go_away> WOW exciting times bionic bever
[14:41] <quaru> alok_ you can dl the PR now, and after an 'apt upgrade' it's the same thing
[14:42] <mparillo> alok_: Often before the official release announcement. I would guess not much before midnight UTC.
[14:43] <flash_go_away> lastly
[14:43] <quaru> flash_go_away: Adobe announced a bit ago they're not doing flash anymroe
[14:44] <flash_go_away> when i chose my time zone on set up the first log in screen is in the language of that time
[14:44] <flash_go_away> no matter where i change things to english that screen is still in foreign language
[14:45] <Mrokii> flash_go_away: I had the same annoying popup for months. Never found a way to get rid of it. I haven't paid attention after upgrade, but it may be gone now.
[14:45] <flash_go_away> bye bye adobie hello standardized and secure web
[14:46] <Mrokii> If only.
[14:46] <flash_go_away> baby steps
[15:11] <Mrokii> Strange. I just noticed that Plasma is displayed on vt1, instead of vt7, as it has always been, at least for me. It must be something that got changed during the upgrade. What's the rationale behind that?
[15:28] <acheronuk> Mrokii: ubuntu and ubiquity-dm switched to VT1 by default for 18.04, which we meant could get rid of our patching to force VT7 which was never ideal but required while other ubuntu bits needed it
[15:29] <Mrokii> acheronuk: Okay, thanks for the explanation. As long as I know that this is the way it's supposed to be it's fine with me.
[15:29] <Mrokii> I mean, as long as it isn't a bug or something.
[15:29] <acheronuk> not a bug
[15:30] <Mrokii> Yeah, I understand.
[15:45] <Mrokii> Has anybody else noticed frequent crashes of kwin (in conjunction with nvidia-drivers) when compositor is switched on?
[16:07] <alok_> when is kubuntu 18.04 coming?
[16:44] <ca_cabotage> 18.04.... where are you!
[16:47] <Kon-> There's some final testing going on
[16:48] <ca_cabotage> sad day - i was hoping to be off windows 10 on my laptop by now
[16:49] <Kon-> It's hardly mid day in the USA
[16:49] <ca_cabotage> yeah, i know im being impatient
[17:15] <diegoC> Can we upgrade to 18.04 today?
[17:18] <acheronuk> diegoC: not just yet. last minute fixes and image rebuilds happening for all flavours
[17:19] <diegoC> Great! In a couple of hours "do-release-upgrade" ? :-)
[17:20] <Mrokii> This may sound like a silly question, but should "lsb_release -a" state the distributor ID as "Kubuntu" or "Ubuntu"?
[17:22] <diegoC> Mrokii: Should state Ubuntu.
[17:27] <Dragnslcr> Mrokii- Kubuntu is still the Ubuntu distribution, just with different packages installed by default
[17:30] <Mrokii> diegoC, Dragnslcr: Thanks. Out of interest though, is Kubuntu actually referenced somewhere in the files, or is it always just "Ubuntu"?
[17:31] <diegoC> Mrokii: You could execute: cat /var/log/installer/media-info
[17:32] <diegoC> Should state the original installer you used and the date of installation.
[17:33] <Mrokii> diegoC: Seems so. It says "Kubuntu 16.04"
[18:21] <motsu__> heyya, is there a link to the 18.04 lts release image (or info on when its going live)?
[18:23] <diogenes_> motsu__, how do you think, how many people have asked the same question here in the past two days? :)
[18:27] <motsu__> diogenes_: im sure. im not seeing any links online and some googling just points me to the RC image. i feel like a junky needing his new kubuntu fix :p
[18:28] <diogenes_> motsu__, usually it takes few days after the canonical's ubuntu is released, other spins catching up with it
[18:31] <motsu__> ah, makes sense.
[18:34] <krosonp> diogenes_: actually that's not the case. It's more common all of them release at the same day
[18:34] <diegoC> I'm waiting for the announce
[18:36] <acheronuk> images are rebuilding, so not imminent
[18:46] <krosonp> acheronuk: but not too far off either :)
[18:46] <acheronuk> fingers crossed. it's been a long day
[18:47] <krosonp> acheronuk: All ISOs are currently uploading to cdimage, then it will be a matter of minutes
[18:50] <acheronuk> but then they need to be smoketested. etc etc etc
[19:48] <diegoC> Will 'do-release-upgrade' work when ISOs are uploaded?
[19:48] <valorie> yes
[19:48] <valorie> but right now, we need testers
[19:48] <valorie> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/389/builds
[19:48] <valorie> last minute bug fix
[19:49] <valorie> login there, download/zsync from there
[19:49] <valorie> report results there
[19:49] <valorie> plz
[19:50]  * BionicMac is testing new i386 image now
[20:06] <acheronuk> diegoC: do-release-upgrade will work once the release meta is updated on changelogs.ubuntu.com
[20:07] <acheronuk> usually that is later in the day, some hours after isos go live. today, who knows?
 To be honest, I'd probably wait a few days to do anything major
 the mirrors tend to be slammed for a bit after a release
 If you do upgrade, download the ISOs via torrent (and preferably seed for a while) and set them up as a source for APT to pull from
 not exactly sure how to do that
[20:52] <user|72765> how to install something at boot time for try kubuntu
[21:10] <user|53580> Hello, dear friends!!! Is RC (Release Candidate) of Bionic Beaver (18.04) a stable version of Kubuntu or I need wait a little bit more? Thanks
[21:11] <spicypixel> can you wait a day?
 I'd wait a few days at least, to be honest.  The mirrors are likely to be under heavy use, causing slow speeds
[21:12] <user|53580> Yes! So, it'll be ok in a day? But what is the name of the stable release?
[21:12] <krosonp> IrcsomeBot: Use the torrent and no problem
 plus, you'd be letting the early adopters figure out any issues
[21:13] <viewer|12113> They just uploaded it, but giving me an "denied" message when attempting to download the .iso http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/18.04/release/
[21:14] <user|53580> But you can upgrade from the cli?
[21:15] <viewer|12113> Ah true, but I want to do a fresh install.
[21:16] <user|53580> I think that in couple of days it'll be in all the mirrors
[21:19] <user|53580> So, good luck to everybody!!! Many happy returns of new releases ))
[21:19] <spicypixel> torrent works though if you want it now
[21:20] <shevchuk> Anyone know a way to temporary "lock" user in an app, e.g. launch text editor and hide other UI elements and block switching to other apps or closing? Unlock when timer runs out or on keyboard shortcut + password. I know kiosk distros exist, what I need is more like "strong focus mode" on regular Ubuntu.
[21:22] <shevchuk> perhaps I could just kquitapp5 plasmashell and krunner...
[21:23] <releaseWHEN> hello, I do not want to put pressure, just to organize my day better: do we perhaps know when KUBUNTU 18.04 LTD final release will be launged? I mean still today or do they need more time?
[21:29] <viewer|12113> releaseWHEN it's out now - http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/18.04/release/
[21:34] <releaseWHEN> but is this the official final release?
[21:34] <releaseWHEN> on kubuntu.org you still cannot se it
[21:35] <viewer|12113> It's their official release files, just got out like 20 mins ago. They just haven't updated the site yet.
[21:35] <releaseWHEN> see
[21:35] <krosonp> It is. But the official site will only be updated when the official announcement is posted by Ubuntu
[21:36] <releaseWHEN> ahh, ok so i can start to install this final version NOW, right?
[21:36] <viewer|12113> And my torrent is downloaded, yes you can. Go with the torrent, doesn't seem to be possible to download the .iso
[21:37] <sg451> i was able to download from here http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/kubuntu/releases/18.04/release/
[21:38] <sg451> library doesn't like torrent files
[21:40] <releaseWHEN> thanks, this mirrorsite contains the identical image as the original http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/18.04/release/  right?
[21:40] <shevchuk> make sure checksum match after download, especially if you do not dl with torrent
[21:40] <sg451> it's a mirror of the ubuntu website.. so i think it's legit?!?
[21:41] <releaseWHEN> i hope so :-) how do i check the checksums, which is the command to do so?
[21:44] <sg451> i think you just use sha256sum <filename> from the commandline
[21:45] <shevchuk> yeah, or just right click and go to properties > checksums tab
[21:46] <releaseWHEN> or use google and find this aerticle https://itsfoss.com/checksum-tools-guide-linux/
[21:46] <releaseWHEN> -)
[21:47] <releaseWHEN> but easiest thing is the using right click  properties > checksums tab , thanks for explaining
[21:55] <michaelmudd> personally, i love windows and i would never fall out of one! :)
[21:57] <BionicMac> =)
[23:06] <katnip> it's out
[23:08] <krosonp> !isitout
[23:08] <krosonp> yep :)


[02:10] <ScottL> falktx_, did you need something earler?
[02:11] <falktx_> ScottL: i just asked about what CMS you guys prefer
[02:11] <falktx_> joomla, drupal or wordpress
[02:11] <ScottL> drupal for the website
[02:14] <ScottL> troy_s, your comments the other night about dvd authoring being dead got me thinking about what an audio distribution could offer a musician
[02:14] <troy_s> ScottL: LOL. Your mind works in strange ways.
[02:14] <ScottL> troy_s, brainstorming a few ideas and will send an email to the mailing list later to see if anyone is interesting or wants to contribute
[02:15] <ScottL> troy_s, i enjoy thinking outside the mainstream box, most people scare me with the way they think
[02:15] <ScottL> troy_s, of course most of my "thinking" is really just ADHD
[02:16] <ScottL> troy_s, but your comments/questions months and months ago about "what is ubuntu studio and who is it for" has stuck with me and i think about it often
[02:17] <troy_s> ScottL: Don't blame the lunatic.
[02:17] <troy_s> ScottL: We are utterly fearful of outwardly rejecting audiences (inner geek / nerd perhaps?) that we utterly fail to deliver to anyone in any great capacity.
[02:17] <ScottL> troy_s, no, no, it's a good question and it's one that probably should be asked periodically
[02:18] <troy_s> ScottL: Just track the progress and you will see what I mean. In fact, track back far. I'll wager that the tendrils run deep.
[02:18] <ScottL> in some ways it might be like peeling away the layers of an onion, once you eliminate what it isn't you are left with what it is
[02:21] <troy_s> ScottL: The core of all is audience as Jim Krause says - "Audience governs all." and in that you can sum up about all of Don Norman's work and plenty of other famous folks.
[02:22] <ScottL> troy_s, i haven't really found a good way to articulate my thought yet, but i would like to explore how ubuntu studio can facilitate today's musician with exposing their music/video to others
[02:22] <troy_s> ScottL: Audience gives context and helps to define needs. Saying 'everyone' is a complete lack of respect for design. It cannot be done. It makes horrible assumptions about cultural values, about age demographics, about prior knowledge, about societal norms, etc.
[02:23] <troy_s> ScottL: Erm... that wouldn't be Ubuntu Studio would it? Unless you had some sort of single click to publish thing with Jamendo or Magnatune.  Look at Android's market for example.
[02:24] <troy_s> ScottL: So realistically, there is no magic bullet for a musician there either. Can you create work with it? I have no clue. I do know that if the audio works are as gimped as... uh it shall remain nameless, then the answer is no and it is hopeless to aim even as high as intermediate.
[02:25] <ScottL> troy_s,  i was thinking about tools that would help convert to formats for vimeo or youtube and then a mechanism to automate posting their work to the same along with soundcloud, bandcamp, et al
[02:25] <ScottL> troy_s, and maybe even including a tag line to send via identica
[02:26] <ScottL> "listen to my new song at..."
[02:26] <ScottL> but this is just a single thought line from a single person
[02:26] <ScottL> maybe i spark someone else's imagination and they think of something completely perpendicular but utterly brilliant
[02:26] <troy_s> ScottL: Sounds interesting. No idea if that appeals to a given audience type.
[02:29] <ailo> ScottL: I think documentation for standard workflows is a good start.
[02:31] <ailo> ScottL: If we think unix-like maybe such things like ladish will let us join all our little programs together. A lot seems to have to do with software design.
[02:32] <ailo> Still haven't tried that myself, though :)
[02:35] <ailo> Adding ways to publish on the web, aught to be providing info and links
[03:10] <ScottL> TheMuso, i have added a patch to the gnome-classic default xsession bug 702712
[15:39] <ScottL> hi rlameiro
[15:39] <rlameiro> Hey ScottL :D how are you?
[15:42] <ScottL> rlameiro, doing well, fixed many things lately, lots of people working on good stuff for the future :)
[15:42] <ScottL> today is also by daughters birthday party, i'm not really looking forward to having a crapload of pre-teen girls in the house today and "sleeping" over tonight
[15:42] <rlameiro> Nice... when is alpha 2 going out?
[15:42] <ScottL> i say "sleeping" because they really don't seem do any of it
[15:42] <rlameiro> ooops...
[15:43] <ScottL> we did this last year as well
[15:43] <ScottL> !schedule
[15:43] <ScottL> hmm, that's not it
[15:43] <ScottL> !alpha2
[15:43] <ScottL> february 3rd is alpha2 according to
[15:43] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
[15:44] <rlameiro> hummm almost there
[15:44] <ScottL> hopefully we get the gnome-classic default xsession patched and included before then :/
[15:44] <rlameiro> ScottL: what do you thing that are the most important testing procedures for US?
[15:44] <rlameiro> I was thinking in making at least 3 audio tests....
[15:44] <ScottL> i still have to see about fixing the tasksel as well, but i'm not worried about getting it necessarily for A2
[15:44] <rlameiro> 1 - Onboard /souncard test
[15:45] <rlameiro> 2 - USB interface test
[15:45] <rlameiro> 3 - Firewire test
[15:45] <ScottL> all good tests
[15:45] <rlameiro> I think making to much test can be bad
[15:46] <ScottL> ailo has been giving thought to testing as well, and documenting some of his and holstein's findings
[15:46] <rlameiro> humm ok
[15:46] <ScottL> they really starting digging into what it takes to make a firewire interface work
[15:46] <rlameiro> I need to talk to them
[15:46] <ailo> Yeah, it would be good to make some documentation for testers.
[15:46] <rlameiro> ailo: yeap...
[15:46] <ScottL> rlameiro, i think you and ailo might work together to cover more ground and faster, maybe divide the work
[15:46] <rlameiro> that was suposedely my job.... but i am slacking a lot....
[15:46] <rlameiro> shame on me
[15:47] <ailo> I've been looking into how to test lowlatency
[15:47] <ScottL> lol, it's all voluntary and other things get in the way
[15:47] <rlameiro> ScottL: tru... like lilypond
[15:48] <ScottL> ailo, i'm thinking of taking some time this weekend and testing the new -generic kernel (2.6.38) and then the -lowlatency and see how it compares then
[15:48] <rlameiro> ailo: what firewire interface do you have?
[15:48] <ailo> rlameiro: I guess it should be pretty straight forward, just collect a list of things that need to be confirmed
[15:48] <ailo> I don't have firewire, but I worked with holstein and a guy named tanders to do some tests
[15:48] <rlameiro> humm
[15:49] <ailo> Already did some initial tests on -generic
[15:49] <ailo> But we would need to have some more variables than just testing jack and maybe jack + a program
[15:49] <rlameiro> I tought  myabe doing an Ardour session with lots of plugins and at least 4 output channels to test firewire...
[15:50] <ailo> rlameiro: You don't have any issue with firewire at all?
[15:50] <rlameiro> ailo: where are ou from /TimeZone?
[15:50] <ailo> +1, but maybe 0 just now
[15:50] <rlameiro> ailo: didnt tested yet in natty
[15:50] <ScottL> along with testing the three audio interfaces that rlameiro mentioned, we should have them verify that they are running with -rt privileges
[15:50] <rlameiro> ok I am on Zero..
[15:50] <rlameiro> I need to go now to a meeting with a composer
[15:51] <ailo> Then I'm on +1 :)
[15:51] <rlameiro> i wil come latter to see about it
[15:51] <ailo> rlameiro: I will be here. Just ping
[15:51] <rlameiro> ScottL: also maybe generic kernel test and abogani kernel test
[15:52] <ailo> rlameiro: Let's make a table of things.
[15:52] <rlameiro> ScottL: is the Natty US ISO usable?
[15:52] <rlameiro> can i install it on disk?
[15:53] <ScottL> rlameiro, i believe it is, but when you begin to login you will need to select your xsession at the bottom
[15:53] <rlameiro> ok
[15:54] <ScottL> it will default to "Ubuntu Desktop" or something similar, you will need to select "Ubuntu Classic Gnome"
[15:54] <rlameiro> so i will install it tonight ant test it with my firewire and see what is happening
[15:54] <rlameiro> well
[15:54] <rlameiro> I need to go now
[15:54] <ScottL> this is the patch that i mentioned earlier, this will cause it to default to the gnome-classic xsession without having to pick anything
[15:54] <ScottL> bye rlameiro
[15:54] <rlameiro> cya
[16:26] <ailo> ScottL: I did some testing on the new -generic and as earlier I can confirm realtime from the latest -generic
[16:27] <ailo> So, no reason to add that to the test now.
[16:27] <ailo> But it could be added to a full Documentation of testing a new distro, or a new release of a distro
[16:28] <ailo> I did just a simple testing table according to what rlameiro proposed now. http://paste.ubuntu.com/559948/
[16:43] <ailo> Maybe we can post the tests to the mail list, later to do some comparisons. That could be fun
[16:53] <ScottL> ailo, awesome ideas
[16:54] <ailo> ScottL: It think we should have a script for the test. Then post the results from the script to the mail list. Should be the easiest solution.
[16:55] <ailo> Just one test, to rule them all
[18:06] <ScottL> LOL, but an awesome idea too
[19:10] <ailo> rlameiro: I had some ideas before about testing
[19:10] <ailo> What about making a script, post it on the mail list and let users add their results the list
[19:10] <rlameiro> ailo: fire them up
[19:10] <rlameiro> what kind of script?
[19:11] <ailo> I don't know yet, but at least dealing with jackd
[19:12] <ailo> At first I went with your suggestion and did this http://paste.ubuntu.com/559948/
[19:12] <ailo> But, in order to be precise I think we need a script, that many can use and compare
[19:13] <ailo> We don't need so many testers, perhaps, but it could be fun to post it on the mail list anyway
[19:14] <rlameiro> yeap
[19:14] <rlameiro> well, it would be nice to make a sript that automated the test...
[19:14] <rlameiro> That would be awesome :D
[19:14] <ailo> If we do a script, we could start it  ./script -d alsa -d hw:1
[19:14] <ailo> Like we would start jack
[19:15] <rlameiro> yea
[19:15] <ailo> Then collect info from the system, start some audio program and collect the results into a textfile
[19:17] <ailo> I don't know what programs or what kind of action to take. though
[19:17] <ailo> Have to eat. Be back later..
[19:21] <falktx> hey guys
[19:21] <falktx> hey rlameiro
[19:21] <rlameiro> falktx: :D
[19:21] <falktx> I have good news
[19:22] <falktx> I made my realtime-31 package based on abogani's one, and it's building
[19:22] <falktx> it it builds ok for lucid, then the same should happen for maverick too
[19:22] <falktx> we may have some realtime kernels soon...
[19:23] <rlameiro> nice
[19:24] <falktx> compiling the kernel takes so much time...
[19:54] <falktx> yay! the kernel compiled!
[19:56] <ailo> falktx: No graphic drivers with those, right?
[19:56] <falktx> ailo: not yet
[19:56] <falktx> ailo: this is still the 31 kernel, in a few days I'll upload 33
[19:57] <falktx> ailo: abogani's 33-rt kernel is outdated though...
[19:57] <ailo> falktx: 31 for multiple distros, and 33 too?
[19:57] <falktx> ailo: yes!
[19:57] <falktx> ailo: 31 is building on maverick now
[19:57] <falktx> (lucid was fine)
[19:58] <falktx> ailo: natty will start build soon
[19:58] <ailo> falktx: I'm sure some firewire users may have use for them. Did you check out the rtirq script yet?
[19:58] <falktx> ailo: oh, not yet
[19:58] <falktx> ailo: what do I need to do?
[19:59] <ailo> falktx: Don't ask me :). But I know you will need it.
[19:59] <falktx> k
[20:00] <ailo> falktx: http://alsa.opensrc.org/Rtirq
[20:00] <falktx> ailo: I basically just need to update it, right?
[20:00] <ailo> The rtirq needs to be updated at least for the new firewire stack, so that it gives priority to firewire
[20:01] <ailo> firewire being the new name, don't remember the old name
[20:04] <falktx> ailo: latest release of rtirq is from 2009
[20:04] <falktx> lucid is already up-to-date
[20:06] <falktx> if anyone wants to try:
[20:06] <falktx> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/kernel/+sourcepub/1478697/+listing-archive-extra
[20:06] <falktx> install the *.all.deb and *.i386|amd64.deb (depend on your arch)
[20:07] <ailo> falktx: Here's how to install the rtirq http://my.opera.com/coreymwamba/blog/2009/01/03/automatically-realtime-priorities-using-rtirq
[20:08] <ailo> I'm not sure if that is the correct way to do it on Ubuntu though
[20:08] <falktx> ailo: there's a "simpler" way for ubuntu:
[20:09] <falktx> update-rc.d rtirq defaults 50 10
[20:11] <falktx> reboot time, testing realtime kernel
[20:14] <falktx> realtime 31 kernel working fine
[20:15] <falktx> things seems a little slower though
[20:15] <falktx> the desktop at least...
[20:17] <ailo> falktx: Did you try jack yet?
[20:17] <falktx> ailo: will do that now
[20:17] <ailo> Are you using the rtirq?
[20:17] <falktx> ailo: yes, installed by default in kxstudio
[20:18] <falktx> my realtime test always involves wine
[20:18] <falktx> in generic, everytime I start a wine app, I got 1-3 xruns
[20:18] <falktx> haha, now I got 0!
[20:18] <ailo> I usually get xruns no matter kernel when starting some apps
[20:19] <falktx> oh, 1 when adding new vst
[20:19] <falktx> haha, I should the news on the forums
[20:19] <falktx> *should post
[20:20] <ailo> How about latency compared to -lowlatency?
[20:20] <ailo> or -preempt in your case
[20:20] <falktx> ailo: i did not test lowlatency yet
[20:20] <rlameiro> ailo
[20:20] <falktx> ailo: i have to do tests later
[20:20] <rlameiro> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
[20:20] <falktx> wow, Maverick rt31 also compiled!
[20:20] <rlameiro> will try to add some procedures to this testcases page
[20:21] <rlameiro> going to make some food and eat
[20:36] <ailo> rlameiro: I guess I could help fill in some spaces there. I could start with the latency testing script.
[20:40] <falktx> hm, guys, cya
[20:41] <falktx> rlameiro: eu n devo ir la, tenho mais k fazer....
[20:41] <falktx> xau
[20:55] <rlameiro> ailo
[20:55] <rlameiro> well, i dont know
[20:55] <rlameiro> maybe we should do the script first
[20:55] <rlameiro> maybe define a clear testing procedure
[20:56] <ailo> rlameiro: What should the goal be?
[20:56] <rlameiro> after that inplement it on a script
[20:56] <ailo> I don't think it matters if we start from both ends at the same time
[20:59] <ailo> I'm not a great scripter, but I thought I could at least start with making jack start and stop in different frames/period and then catch xruns and log them
[20:59] <ailo> As a barebone
[20:59] <ailo> For audio testing
[21:01] <ailo> I'm thinking about what form the results should have, what the script should accomplish
[21:03] <ailo> Many things I think needs to be done manually anyway, so maybe the script can be left simple.
[21:03] <ailo> rlameiro: What do you think?
[21:04] <rlameiro> I am with you :D
[21:04] <rlameiro> ailo: in python?
[21:05] <ailo> rlameiro: Bash is hard enough for me :)
[21:05] <rlameiro> ok, i dont know mch of bash
[21:06] <rlameiro> but we can try to pull it off
[21:06] <rlameiro> but before that we need to know what to test for
[21:06] <rlameiro> for instance
[21:07] <rlameiro> firewire normally runs on 3 periods
[21:07] <ailo> rlameiro: Why is that, anyway?
[21:08] <rlameiro> I think it is related with the firewire bus
[21:08] <rlameiro> also usb card should be run like that at low latencies
[21:09] <ailo> 3 periods per buffer should work as default for all devices, right?
[21:09] <rlameiro> at leas for FW ones
[21:09] <rlameiro> *leasr
[21:09] <rlameiro> grrr
[21:09] <rlameiro> "least
[21:10] <ailo> I don't think there is any problem with pci, so if it works best for firewire, I think we might as well keep it at 3, to make things easier
[21:10] <rlameiro> well, but it is quite diferent setup for pci
[21:10] <rlameiro> you can achive lower latencies
[21:10] <rlameiro> for instance
[21:11] <rlameiro> 2 buffers at 256 has lower latencie than 2 buffers at 256
[21:11] <ailo> Of course, but maybe we don't need to make a very strict latency testing
[21:12] <rlameiro> well yeah
[21:12] <rlameiro> we could try to do 2 diferent types of test
[21:12] <ailo> If we do, we should plug in outputs to inputs and measure the real latency, but that becomes more work.
[21:12] <rlameiro> one for extreme values and another Standard
[21:12] <ailo> There is a script for latency, latentor
[21:13] <rlameiro> it could be used
[21:14] <ailo> I'm looking for it now
[21:14] <ailo> Here's some info on jack latency testing http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/jack_latency_tests
[21:18] <ailo> The latentor script was on that page http://rg42.org/gitweb/?p=latentor.git;a=snapshot;sf=tgz
[21:18] <ailo> But it will only work if you connect inputs to outputs
[21:22] <ailo> rlameiro: I also asked about testing kernels a couple months back. Here's the discussion http://lalists.stanford.edu/lau/2010/12/0400.html
[21:23] <ailo> To do very specific tests, that may take some more work, but just to get a general idea, we can still keep it very simple
[21:25] <rlameiro> ailo... we could try to make a pd patch very, very, very cpu intensive with fft etc and run it without gui :D
[21:25] <rlameiro> that would surely stress the ystem
[21:25] <ailo> rlameiro: Good idea
[21:27] <ailo> I haven't tested yet the difference, but I feel pd is slightly harder to get to work without xruns than Ardour. Using pd at least gives us total control of CPU intensivity.
[21:27] <ailo> But that test would show the relationship between stress and xruns, instead of latency and xruns
[21:29] <rlameiro> well, you cant do only one test for that
[21:30] <ailo> Maybe do a series, where jack starts first, and then after a while pd is started. Xruns will follow from starting pd, but those can be ignored
[21:30] <ailo> As well as shutting down pd
[21:31] <rlameiro> yes, we need to give it some time to open and strat the patch
[21:32] <rlameiro> after some time you only need to stop pd and then jack
[21:32] <rlameiro> after that a new test
[21:32] <ailo> Yes, that would work
[21:34] <ailo> pd should track cpu to scale the intensity so it adapts to the system it is tested on
[21:36] <rlameiro> yes we can look at the load and if it goes avobe 98 shutdown a module and if it goes lower than 97 connect other
[21:38] <ailo> That takes care of the audio testing, but there's all the other things to worry about, which seem like it should be presented as a list of manual tasks to go through, one by one.
[21:39] <ailo> Like boolean problems, does it work, or not
[21:41] <ailo> But we can't have that for every piece of software. I think the tests should be directed at checking hardware
[21:41] <ailo> Graphic cards, cd drives, things like that.
[21:45] <rlameiro> yeap
[21:45] <rlameiro> i think ubuntu already has some kind of test on that
[21:45] <rlameiro> ont the system menu or something
[21:45] <ailo> Yes, so we only need to do things that are Studio specific
[21:45] <rlameiro> yeap
[21:46] <rlameiro> altough we can direct them for that test for other stuff
[21:46] <rlameiro> but this is also fo ease of testing inside of US dev
[21:46] <rlameiro> not for every user
[21:46] <rlameiro> for instance when there is a new kernel build we need to test it and see if it works or not
[21:47] <rlameiro> only after that it would be available at ubuntustudio ppa
[21:49] <ailo> Would you want to do the pd patch and I do the script that starts it?
[21:51] <rlameiro> i can try
[21:51] <ailo> I can help with pd if needed
[21:52] <rlameiro> I could ask to the list the best way to stress DSP :D
[21:52] <ailo> I'm sure pd list people can too
[21:52] <rlameiro> they like that stuff :D
[21:52] <rlameiro> crash computers and stuff
[21:52] <ailo> hehe
[21:52] <rlameiro> me too by the way
[22:05] <ailo> good night rlameiro. I will work on the script tomorrow and make a quick version.
[22:05] <rlameiro> ok. I dont know if i have a patch for tomorrow
[22:05] <rlameiro> i can try
[22:06] <ailo> no matter if the patch is empty. At least we have the backbone working :)
[22:52] <ScottL> of course, all the testing is relative and would be hard to pinpoint exact comparisons between various user/hardware data
[22:53] <ScottL> but hopefully we can divine vast trends though, e.g. -lowlatency generally is able to perform at approximately X msecs less that -generic without xruns
[22:54] <ScottL> and comparing my data (with pci audio interface) with holstein's data (with firewire) might not have any direct correlation either unfortunately
[23:28] <persia> ailo, If you create a latency testing tool, please have it sample at various system loads.  Frequently a setup that provides the lowest possible latency at low loads can scale poorly, so someone who runs more effects, or someone with lower-power hardware needs a different arrangement.


[00:31] <Wild_Man> I see Bashing-om
[00:36] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: However, of me - what you see is sometimes a figment of the imagination :P
[00:45] <Wild_Man> Bashing-om, I am an enigma
[00:46] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man:  I see :)
[05:47] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Security:: Episode 21 @ https://ubuntusecuritypodcast.org/episode-21/
[09:33] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: HP and 33 Other Organizations Join The Linux Foundation @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/hp-and-33-other-organizations-join-the-linux-foundation-525095.shtml (by Bogdan Popa, Microsoft News Editor)
[15:07] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: KDE Plasma 5.15.2 Desktop Environment Released with 23 Bug Fixes, Update Now @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/kde-plasma-5-12-2-desktop-environment-released-with-23-bug-fixes-update-now-525103.shtml (by Marius Nestor)
[15:46] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Ubuntu Icon Set Addresses its Biggest Complaint @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?p=138656 (by Joey Sneddon)
[16:08] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: Purism Announces PureBoot to Help You Better Secure Your Linux Computers @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/purism-announces-pureboot-to-help-you-better-secure-your-linux-computers-525104.shtml (by Marius Nestor)
[19:11] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: ONLYOFFICE Announces Blockchain-Based End-to-End Document Encryption @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/onlyoffice-announces-blockchain-based-end-to-end-document-encryption-525105.shtml (by Marius Nestor)


[03:47] <bryce> tjaalton, whew, I ended up having to basically rewrite arsenal's launchpadlib authentication system but finally I wontfixed all those lrm bugs :-)
[03:54] <RAOF> Yay!
[03:59] <bryce> was also a good opportunity to do a better way to set scripts to run as bugbot
[03:59] <bryce> now it can be controlled via a simple config flag in the scripts themselves
[03:59] <bryce> alright, time to go play with the kiddo, cya
[04:09] <RAOF> Have fun!
[06:13] <tjaalton> bryce: whoa..
[06:15] <tjaalton> btw, could the drm bits be split from the kernel as a dkms package? I'm thinking it's the best way to scale and provide the backported stack for the masses
[06:16] <tjaalton> maybe it was discussed at uds, but the lts-backport ppa should track kernel security releases, and it's a lot of work
[06:17] <tjaalton> with a drm-dkms package it could be used with the official kernel (which might be needed for stuff like ksplice)
[06:17] <tjaalton> hmm, breakfast ->
[06:23] <RAOF> tjaalton: That would be more appropriate if airlied made good on his threat to go back to a separate drm tree; the benefit and curse of drm being maintained in mainline is that it gets to tie itself in with other code.
[06:42] <tjaalton> RAOF: hmm i thought it was pretty much self-contained and not tied to the rest of the kernel
[06:43] <RAOF> There are a (growing?) number of fingers in other pies; acpi an the VM subsystem spring to mind.
[06:43] <RAOF> s/ an / and /
[06:43] <tjaalton> ah yes, acpi..
[06:44] <RAOF> And, going forward, if linaro has anything to do with it there'll be interactions with v4l2, etc.
[06:45] <tjaalton> do you recall where and when did airlied threat to do that?
[06:51] <RAOF> On one of the drm pull request pushback threads on dri-devel where Linus (again) complained about drm churn, and Dave in reply complained that the kernel release schedule means that it takes about 6 months for hardware support to hit users.
[06:53] <RAOF> I can hunt down the thread if you like.
[07:10] <tjaalton> nah I think I know that one
[08:02] <tjaalton> duh, took this long to discover uscan(1)
[08:07] <RAOF>  !!!
[08:08] <RAOF> Really?  Man, I'm sorry I didn't tell you earlier :)
[08:08] <tjaalton> yeah, i feel so stupid now, wgetting those tarballs by hand in the past
[08:08] <tjaalton> aanyway, wacom 0.11.0 ready
[08:09] <tjaalton> btw, my personal git repo on alioth should be writable by pkg-xorg
[08:10] <tjaalton> for wacom
[09:39] <tjaalton> nice, fermi microcode up for testing
[13:44] <tjaalton> RAOF: -nouveau is in depwait, is libdrm merge ready to go?
[14:55] <tjaalton> yeah, oneiric looks like arse right now :)
[14:55] <tjaalton> a hairy one
[15:00] <tseliot> :D
[15:35] <tjaalton> bryce: intel merged, but patches 115 and 119 need some work to apply, and I just commented them out from series for now
[17:36] <mgariepy> hello, i've got an issue with xorg-server-video-intel v 2.14 and 2.15 that makes the transparency black when using a remote Xorg server i commented the bug here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/785280 can someone help about this ?
[17:36] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 785280 in gentoo (and 1 other project) "transparency not working with intel driver and LTSP (affects: 2) (heat: 12)" [Medium,Unknown]
[23:36] <RAOF> tjaalton: Yeah, the libdrm merge is ready to go (and in git, right?  I'm pretty sure I pushed it!), I just need to work out precisely what to do with mesa.
[23:38] <Sarvatt> woohoo libdrm is merged? I got tripped up bringing the multiarch stuff to the new packaging
[23:41] <RAOF> Yeah, it's merged :)
[23:43] <RAOF> Sarvatt: I'll merge mesa from debian, too.