[00:01] <mwhudson> hello
[00:43] <beuno> get_revision_graph was deprecated in 1.4, what would be best the way to do it now?  I'm using get_graph(), but it seems slower
[00:45] <mwhudson> beuno: how much slower?
[00:45] <mwhudson> beuno: i'm assuming this is for the history object creation time in loggerhead?
[00:45] <beuno> 2.8sec vs 2.1sec
[00:46] <beuno> yes, in History.from_branch
[00:46] <mwh> mm, that's fairly bad
[00:47] <mwh> is that on bzr.dev ?
[00:48] <beuno> 1.5 actually
[00:48] <beuno> I should probably switch to bzr.dev, but it should be faster in 1.5 too
[00:51] <mwh> i woudn't expect much difference
[00:52] <beuno> I may going about it wrong
[00:53] <beuno> I doing log._get_mainline_revs, and then graph.iter_ancestry
[00:57] <beuno> mwhudson, why would loggerhead want each revisions parents to generate it's current history?
[00:58] <beuno> ah, probably to show "merged from"
[00:58] <mwhudson> beuno: right
[00:59] <mwhudson> beuno: "revisions that are in the ancestry of this revid but not this other one"
[00:59] <beuno> what it doesn't seem to do is limit to what i actually will show on screen
[00:59] <beuno> and just ask for the whole history
[00:59] <mwhudson> beuno: mind you, there are much better graph apis for this now, thanks to jam
[01:00] <mwhudson> beuno: loggerhead caches a whole heap of whole-history information when history objects are created
[01:01] <mwhudson> beuno: it would certainly be interesting to take an 'outside in' approach
[01:01] <mwhudson> where you consider what information each view needs and what facilities now exist to get this without whole history operations
[01:02] <mwhudson> i think computing revnos from revids would still be a sticking point
[01:02] <beuno> maybe the revisions that are going to be viewed can be retrieved and cache, if they aren't already
[01:03] <mwhudson> it's not the revisions per se that are interesting
[01:03] <mwhudson> it's the relationships between them
[01:04] <beuno> hrm, yes
[01:05] <beuno> alright, thanks for the brainstorming, I'll start looking for a better alternative to the deprecated method, and try to leave the caching intact for now
[01:13] <beuno> mwhudson, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2008q2/042306.html  seems like a probable improvement
[01:14] <beuno> but, using some of these will make loggerhead depend on bzr 1.5 >
[01:16] <mwhudson> beuno: well, maybe, it's a trade-off between making the history creation a bit slow and having blazing fast revid->revno mappings
[01:17] <mwhudson> beuno: and having slower page loads
[01:17] <mwhudson> beuno: a more incremental approach would be nice, and probably possible
[01:17] <mwhudson> probably need to be careful about memory usage &c though
[01:20] <beuno> would you rather I look into memory issues first?   This was deprecated in 1.4, so it should be there for a few more months. I can do a few tests with Genshi
[01:21] <beuno> (annotate does have deprecated methods too, btw)
[01:21] <poolie> beuno: hello
[01:21] <beuno> hey poolie  :)
[01:26] <mwhudson> beuno: eh, looks like get_revision_graph is gone in bzr.dev already
[01:27] <mwhudson> beuno: fixing this stuff seems like a good thing to do :)
[01:27] <mwhudson> beuno: in particular fixing annotate has been on my todo list forever
[01:27] <mwhudson> beuno: well, for at least 6 months :/
[01:28]  * mwhudson goes for lunch
[01:28] <beuno> mwhudson, alright, I'll stick with the deprecated methods first
[01:28] <beuno> bonne appetit
[01:44] <Vigh> Hey - anyone here available to help me with a quick problem?
[01:45] <bob2> best to just ask
[01:46] <Vigh> yeah, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one that isn't AFK before I did =P
[01:46] <Vigh> anyway, I'm pushing a versioned project to a dumb FTP server ("dumb" because it's not running Bazaar)
[01:46] <Vigh> and I wanted to know if there's a way to remotely update the FTP server's working tree
[01:47] <Vigh> pushing updates the .bzr directory but not the actual files, and the way that the documentation suggests I do it is by running "bzr update" on the host of the branch, but I can't since the FTP server isn't running Bazaar
[01:47] <bob2> well, if you can ssh in, you can bzr co
[01:47] <beuno> Vigh, do you want to keep the history on the other end, or just want the working tree?
[01:48] <Vigh> meh, that's the thing - there's no way I can get Bazaar running on the FTP server
[01:48] <bob2> but otherwise, no, unless you upload the checked out files  via ftp too
[01:49] <Vigh> beuno: Well, here's what I'm working on. I'm working on a web application with 3 other people, and the web app is being hosted on a webhost which provides FTP access but no SSH access
[01:49] <Vigh> I'm using Bazaar because we need versioning and revision control on the project
[01:49] <beuno> Vigh, if you just need the working tree, there is an experimental plugin that does that
[01:49] <beuno> you can use a random place to centralize the repo
[01:49] <beuno> and upload to the production server with the plugin
[01:50] <beuno> (it's main target actually is for web development)
[01:50] <beuno> http://launchpad.net/bzr-upload
[01:50] <beuno> it's still in it's initial stages, but it works well enough, we use it at work pretty frequently
[01:50] <Vigh> Hmmm....this looks perfect
[01:50] <beuno> :)
[01:50] <Vigh> Thanks beuno!
[01:51] <beuno> bugs and patches very welcome, btw
[01:52]  * beuno curses graph.iter_ancestry
[01:52] <Vigh> So I basically just run Bazaar with this plugin on one of my servers and store the repo there, then anytime one of the four of us pushes a revision to it, it will upload the modified files to the specified FTP server?
[01:54] <beuno> Vigh, you don't need to run it on the server, just the client
[01:54] <beuno> bzr upload location
[01:54] <beuno> and it uploads, be default, all files changed from the last revision uploaded
[01:54] <Vigh> Oh, wow, even simpler than I though
[01:55] <Vigh> *thought
[01:55] <beuno> yes, that's what we where aiming at  :)
[01:55] <beuno> make sure merge eachothers changes before uploading, it will check on the remote server, the last revid uploaded, so you should have that in your repo
[01:57] <Vigh> Can I centralize the project on the FTP server and have it upload the modified files in the working tree on the same FTP host? 'Cause we're each running Bazaar and we have the centralized branch already on the FTP server and it works great, the only problem was that any new revisions only updated the .bzr directory on the FTP server, not the actual files (i.e. the working tree)
[01:57] <beuno> mwhudson, changed a few things around, got the new API with the same performance as the deprecated one. I'll cleanup a bit, upload, and start working on annotate.  Dinner first though  :)
[01:57] <Vigh> In other words, can we each just install this plugin and start using bzr upload without changing any configs?
[01:58] <mwhudson> beuno: excellent
[01:58] <mwhudson> i would subscribe to the branch but there's not much point when the scanner
[01:58] <mwhudson> 's fubarred
[01:59] <beuno> Vigh, you can, but it should be to different locations. You don't need anything special to use this plugin, as it basically uploads via ftp/sftp all files changes since the last revid uploaded
[01:59] <beuno> mwhudson, fubarred?
[02:00] <mwhudson> beuno: not working
[02:00] <Vigh> beuno: I ask because we already have the main project centralized on the FTP site and it works fine, it's just that we had to upload the modified files manually because pushing only modified the remote .bzr directory, not the remote working tree
[02:02] <beuno> Vigh, yes. I usually upload the branch to a folder outside of apache's reach, so that only devs can see it, and upload files to a a public directory
[02:02] <beuno> so I keep the repo and files seperate
[02:03] <Vigh> beuno: I'd do that, but out webhost gives us very limited access to the server...no SSH access, and we can only read/write to apache's htdocs directory
[02:03] <bob2> put the branch somewhere protected by htaccess
[02:03] <Vigh> at the moment, we have a /bzr directory on the host that is hidden from public view via .htaccess
[02:04] <beuno> Vigh, that works too, yes
[02:04] <Vigh> Ok, thanks again for the help
[02:04] <beuno> np
[02:04] <Vigh> I'll tell ya' if I have any troubles with the plugin =P
[02:04] <beuno> Vigh, please do  :)
[02:06]  * beuno goes grab some dinner
[02:12] <poolie> i'm going to do a patch for russel's nfs bug, should be trivial
[03:02]  * igc lunch
[04:21] <beuno> mwhudson, pushed the branch with some cleaning done. It now performs as well as the deprecated method does, I'll move on to annotate, and once I clean all deprecated methods, go back and start working on performance
[04:22] <beuno> I don't see a cleaner way to get the graph, although it's an improvement to my previous approach. I'll catch jam tomorrow and see if he knows a cleaner/faster way of getting it
[04:23] <mwhudson> beuno: i'll take a look
[04:26] <mwhudson> beuno: i think you typoed the branch name (logger*g*ead) :)
[04:28] <beuno> argh
[04:28] <mwhudson> beuno: and left a mystery "OB"
[04:28] <beuno> I forget to --remember   :p
[04:28] <mwhudson> but otherwise it looks good :)
[04:29] <beuno> mwhudson, re-pushed and cleaned
[04:30] <beuno> hrm, bzr isn't remembering the location  :/
[04:31] <beuno> btw, why is branch scanning disabled?
[04:32] <mwh> it's wedged on a large branch :/
[04:33] <beuno> ah, so it's just delayed
[04:33] <mwh> yeah, it'll get unstuck at some point
[04:41] <poolie> igc, hm i'm trying to work out how to reply to http://bazaar-vcs.org/AlexanderBelchenko
[04:45] <bob2> does pqm run the tests on windows?
[04:56] <mwh> beuno: i can confirm that your branch has basically identical performance to what's in trunk now
[04:57] <beuno> mwh, cool. One less, 2 to go
[04:57] <mwh> which are ... ?
[04:57] <beuno> performance-wise, the main problems I saw, not having gone too deep, was annotate and diff
[04:58] <beuno> mwh, annotate_iter is what I'm working on now
[04:58] <mwh> ok, yes
[04:58] <beuno> and there is one more which I don't have handy, but it may be the same
[04:58] <beuno> (used somewhere else)
[04:59] <beuno> I've been thinking we may want to try caching the diff's as static HTML, even if we get a good enough improvement with a different templating engine
[05:00] <beuno> it will make diff views *very* cheap once they're generated
[05:01] <mwh> there used to be something a bit similar done
[05:01] <beuno> aha, and it was removed because...?
[05:01] <mwh> but they weren't cached as html, so you still had to pay the rendering cost
[05:02] <mwh> beuno: used heaps of diskspace and didn't benefit much
[05:03] <beuno> well, the disk space will probably still stand, but we should render it once, and never again
[05:03] <beuno> CPU and RAM will be very happy
[05:03] <beuno> so make 2 people happy and one sad, 50% win!
[05:10] <beuno> mwh, maybe we can try just storing the diff bit of the HTML, and generate the rest. That way we may save some space, and leave the rest as-is
[05:11] <mwh> beuno: it makes some sense
[05:14] <lifeless> I have three thoughts
[05:14] <lifeless> one, I'm wasted, having travelled etc.
[05:14] <mwhudson> hi lifeless
[05:15] <lifeless> two, why would loggerhead benefit from such a diff cache and not bzr core
[05:16] <lifeless> three, why not analyse logs that we have today to gather data on whether repeated diffs happen/sizeof cache needed etc
[05:16] <beuno> lifeless, hi
[05:17] <lifeless> in bzr we have found that caches need to be examined with great care to avoid $various issues
[05:17] <lifeless> hi :)
[05:18] <beuno> lifeless, I may be wrong, but the diff between two specific revisions will never change, so, if we handle that carefully enough, we should be able have a plain text (html) cache of it
[05:19] <beuno> so if I have something like revid1_revid2_diff.cache
[05:19] <beuno> I can look for those first, and fall back to generating it if it's not there
[05:20] <beuno> of course, it may not be the case for many other parts of bzr, but diff and annotate I think should be possible, and extremely cheap to serve once generated
[05:21] <beuno> analysing logs on where the current memory hog is, of course, would be of great help, but out of my hands
[05:22] <lifeless> sure; I can see that. Of course it raises the cost of generating it on MISS, and adds a requirement to manage that cache
[05:23] <lifeless> you could also just whack a http proxy in front of loggerhead to cache specific urls
[05:23] <lifeless> anyhow, not saying its a bad idea, saying analyse!
[05:23] <lifeless> also, I didn't say analyse logs for memory, I was saying analyse logs to see what benefit a diff cache would have
[05:24] <lifeless> if any diff gets hit only once, what benefit a cache?
[05:24] <beuno> right, if the current problem is diffs in different repos, than it won't help very much
[05:25] <beuno> the http proxy may work well-ish for LP, but doesn't seem like a good implementation for Loggerhead itself, as it would force an extra setup step for people
[05:26] <beuno> so, I agree. mwhudson, will you be able to spare some time to take a look at that?  Or is there any way I can help?
[05:28] <lifeless> [lemma - standard rule in performance tuning is be sure you have identified the problem]
[05:28] <mwhudson> i'm working, slowly, with the sysadmins to get some decent log analysis
[05:29] <lifeless> a cache is a good answer for 'we repeat [making diffs] a lot and its the effort of repeating ourselve makes us slow]
[05:29] <lifeless> s/]$/'$
[05:30] <mwhudson> my limited intuition is that slapping squid in front would have a good bang/buck ratio when it comes to dealing with the problems launchpad had last week
[05:30] <lifeless> if the problem is 'making diffs is slow' adding a cache only helps to the proportion of diffs avoided
[05:30] <beuno> yes, since I don't have any performance information, yet, I went down the cache path, as it helps scale, and, worse case scenario, it's as expensive as it currently is
[05:32] <beuno> mwhudson, squid will help, until we change the URLs to revnos  :)
[05:32] <lifeless> there is a fallacy there; the worst case of a cache is not the same
[05:32] <lifeless> if you are IO bound
[05:32] <lifeless> loading dentries is not free
[05:33] <lifeless> anyhow, I'm not against a cache per se; I just want you guys to be sure.
[05:34] <beuno> yes, sane advice, thanks
[05:34] <beuno> we also need to think on other use cases, outside LP
[05:34] <beuno> where I do think it's more probable to hit the same diff several times
[05:35] <beuno> but some performance analysis should absolutely be done, on how expensive adding a cache is
[05:36] <lifeless> a cache costs you code; it costs you a cache dir to maintain (and filesystems can have surprisingly pathological behaviour)
[05:36] <lifeless> it adds background tasks
[05:37] <lifeless> there is also the question of where the cost is
[05:37] <lifeless> getting two texts and diffing in bzr should be very cheap
[05:37] <lifeless> is it rendering, or blaming
[05:37] <lifeless> could we render on the client
[05:37] <lifeless> or not blame by default
[05:39] <lifeless> if its bzr diff performance that is the issue should the cache be in bzr
[05:40] <lifeless> another concern on caches is that they can mask actual problems
[05:40] <lifeless> by making 'op' seem cheap when its not, and this can lead to suprising results when later performance tuning. See for instance 'kndx' files.
[05:41] <lifeless> we're still dealing with the fallout of making all operations access all history - much code started to depend on that, even when we were usually careful
[05:41]  * igc pick up kids
[05:42] <lifeless> do you juggle?
[05:43] <mwhudson_> well, loggerhead also suffers from the 'needs to access all history' problem
[05:45] <lifeless> I'm going to halt() for a bit; utterly stuffed and not really coherent
[05:46] <beuno> lifeless, your input is very much appreciated  :)
[05:46] <beuno> how was UDS, btw?
[05:47] <lifeless> most excellent
[05:47] <beuno> chech beer?
[05:47] <jamesh> "czech"
[05:49] <DanielEads> This is probably a stupid question, but I googled around for 20 minutes and couldn't find it....    How do you install someone's branch onto your system with bzr?
[05:50] <lifeless> tchau for now
[05:50] <beuno> DanielEads, you can get a copy of it with:  bzr branch remote_location
[06:01] <DanielEads> beuno:  Thank you  :)
[06:19] <beuno> mwhudson_, do you know of any way of forcing the annotate cache to re-generate, apart from cleaning the sqlite DB manually?
[06:19] <beuno> I replaced the deprecated method, but I want to do some performance comparisons before pushing
[06:20] <mwhudson_> beuno: er
[06:20] <mwhudson_> beuno: the annotate cache is/was a bzr thing
[06:21] <mwhudson_> beuno: to do timings without loggerhead's revision cache, you can comment out the cache_path in the config file
[06:21] <beuno> mwhudson_, that's what I was looking for, thanks
[06:23] <beuno> yay!  new method is 4x faster
[06:32] <mwhudson__> beuno: :)
[06:42] <beuno> mwhudson__, it seems applying the template to big files like NEWS is almost as expensive as generating the annotation itself...  changing the templating engine makes more and more sense
[06:43] <mwhudson__> beuno: you noticed :)
[06:43] <mwhudson__> though to be fair, it's not all the rendering engine's fault
[06:45] <mwhudson__> there's a lot of time spent inside the loop that's the core of annotate.kid
[06:47] <beuno> mwhudson__, pushed the code for annotate. That's the last of deprecated methods I could find
[06:48] <beuno> it gets better performance in some cases, and the same in other (larger, more complex files)
[06:48] <beuno> won't make a difference, but it won't get deprecated either  :)
[06:50] <beuno> almost 3am here, so I'm about to call it a day.  If you can't think of anything more important, my next step would be experimenting with different templating engines
[06:50] <beuno> and possibly evaluating how some of the caches are used, it seems there's room for improvement in some cases
[06:52] <mwhudson__> beuno: it's the end of my work day too, so thanks and i'll get back to you tomorrow
[06:53] <beuno> mwhudson__, thanks, cya tomorrow
[07:01] <beuno> I'm off, have a good day everyone  :)
[09:13]  * igc dinner
[12:37] <tca> Have anyone here managed to use http://cia.vc and bzr together? I'm trying the cia client http://cia.vc/clients/bzr/cia_bzr.py, but see no message or warning, and nothing happens at cia.vc and the irc robot is silent.
[12:40] <jamesh> tca: that plugin looks like it is using the old hook registration method so if you haven't updated your ~/.bazaar/locations.conf file, as the comment at the top says, it won't do anything
[12:41] <jamesh> tca: https://launchpad.net/bzr-cia/ is probably more promising
[12:43] <tca> I did modiy locations.conf. I'll try the client on launchpad now.
[12:52] <tca> This works. Thank you. I will notify them about this client.
[13:24] <Pieter> If I uncommit a large number of revisions, how can I get the space occupied by those revisions back?
[13:26] <jelmer> tca: It's actually the same client, just that the CIA folks haven't responded my requests to update the one on their site
[14:44] <jelmer> Pieter: a copy of the branch will not contain those revisions
[15:27] <beuno> what does bzr commit --fixes actually do?
[15:28] <gour> adds some metadata for the bug-tracker?
[15:44] <Jemsquash> Can someone help me getting bzr visualise to work on windows Vista? I've tried various installs and can't seem to get bzr to recognise that its installed. I've tried the pygtk windows installer and a cygwin installation but no luck.
[15:46] <Jemsquash> According to the instructions I need to install olive using python olive-gtk. It gives an error that pygtk2 is not installed.
[15:48] <Jemsquash> I can see the following apps installed in the Control Panel: Python 2.5 pycairo-1.2.6, Python 2.5 pygobject-2.12.3, Python 2.5 pygtk-2.10.1, Python 2.5.2
[15:52] <Jemsquash> Otherwise is there some other way to get a graphical representation of branches in a bzr repository?
[15:53] <jelmer> it may be easier to get qbzr to work on windows
[15:54] <Jemsquash> yeah I've got it working but it does not show a nice graph of the branches AFAIK.
[15:57] <Jemsquash> qbzr is quite helpfull but I'd prefer to use a pretty picture to show me what's merged where. I'm a bit of a simpleton at times :)
[15:59] <beuno> jam, could you pass a merge request I just sent, through the filter?  It's 1.7mb  :)
[16:00] <beuno> (and if you have time at some point, I have a question on what the best way to get a repos's graph is)
[16:01] <Jemsquash> em, I lost you there. Through the filter?
[16:01] <beuno> Jemsquash, that would be for jam  :)
[16:10] <Peng> 1.7 MB?! What'd you do, rewrite bzr in Ruby?
[16:11] <beuno> Peng, LOL
[16:12] <beuno> it may be that or it may be the images for the spanish docs. Nobody will know until it goes through the filter  :)
[16:16] <Peng> That's way less interesting. :P
[16:17] <beuno> well, it could still be the ruby thing
[16:17] <fullermd> Well, maybe it's a rewrite in perl, that just LOOKS like the images for the spanish docs.
[16:18] <beuno> and with tests!  :)
[16:18] <fullermd> Everybody's all about the code being the documentation, after all...
[16:18] <beuno> that should confuse the reviewers enough
[16:41] <jam> beuno: for this one, could you push a branch to LP and just submit a plain diff? I'd rather not push 2MB to everyone on bazaar@
[16:41] <jam> I can if it is hard for you
[16:41] <Peng> It's possible to do a merge directive without a diff or bundle, right?
[16:41] <jam> beuno: btw, how do you get 2MB from editing source files?
[16:41] <jam> Peng: 'bzr send --no-bundle'
[16:41] <jam> that sort of thing
[16:41] <jam> but you need a proper public location
[16:42] <jam> beuno: well, editing documentation, but that's still a lot of changes
[16:42] <Peng> jam: Not if it's images.
[16:42] <beuno> jam, I can, but it will take a while, as I have to upload a new bzr branch to LP
[16:42] <jam> Peng: if it was bitmaps
[16:43] <jam> Which is something we wouldn't really want to merge
[16:43] <Vigh> Hola - beuno, you here?
[16:43] <Peng> The en quick-start-summary.* is 1 MB.
[16:43] <Peng> Maybe compressing and base64ing it blew it up.
[16:44] <jam> could be
[16:44] <Peng> 1.1 MB. base64 could do that.
[16:44] <beuno> Vigh, yeap yeap
[16:44] <jam> I'll let it through, I guess
[16:44] <Peng> Really?
[16:44] <beuno> it's the workflow png/svg's
[16:45] <beuno> jam, I *can* upload the branch, I don't want to annoy everyone  :)
[16:45] <jam> beuno: though technically, it is my day off :)
[16:45] <jam> already sent, and I'm afk
[16:45] <beuno> jam, aaaah, I did not know that, have a good holiday
[16:45] <Vigh> beuno: I just installed bzr-upload and it's _almost_ working...the initial full upload fine
[16:45] <beuno> and thanks
[16:45] <beuno> Vigh, almost working is pretty good for a pre-alpha  :p
[16:45] <Vigh> but after making a new commit and trying to upload, I'm getting this error:
[16:46] <Vigh> File "C:\Python25\Lib\site-packages\bzrlib\plugins\upload\__init__.py", line 98, in run
[16:46] <Vigh>     display_url = urlutils.unescape_for_display(stored_loc,
[16:46] <Vigh> NameError: global name 'urlutils' is not defined
[16:46] <beuno> Vigh, htm, let me check
[16:46] <beuno> you have the latest version?
[16:46] <Vigh> Yup, just pulled this morning
[16:48] <Vigh> That's the only place in the script that urlutils is actually used, so I'm tempted just to leave out the unescaping
[16:48] <beuno> hrm, all tests pass
[16:49] <Vigh> the test_upload.py runs fine for me, too >.<
[16:50] <beuno> Vigh, uploading a fix now, try pulling and re-uploading
[16:50] <Vigh> I just fixed it myself too =P
[16:51] <Vigh> I realized that urlutils was never actually being imported
[16:51] <beuno> yes, that would be it  :)
[16:51] <Vigh> Anyway, it's working wonderfully now
[16:51] <beuno> can you see if trunk fixed it properly too?  just so I can be sure
[16:51] <Vigh> sure, hold on
[16:52] <Vigh> Yup, works with the newest version
[16:52] <Vigh> Thanks =)
[16:52] <beuno> Vigh, thank you  :)
[16:53]  * beuno adds comment to add a test for those lines
[16:53] <beuno> vila, ^^  :)
[17:06] <jam> Vigh: just add a "from bzrlib import urlutils at the top
[17:10] <Vigh> jam: yeah, I know =)
[17:48] <Pieter> if I have a shared bzr rpo, can I just delete one of the working dirs and then get it back later?
[17:50] <pasky> Hi, what are the most popular tools for history visualization in bzr? The dot-based tool in BzrTools, or something else?
[17:50] <radix> Pieter: technically, all of the revisions are stored in the repository, so all the data is still. however, I don't know of any easy way to get it back out
[17:50] <radix> Pieter: however, if the branch you have deleted has already been merged into another branch, then it's possible and easy to reproduce the merged/deleted branch
[17:50] <jelmer> Pieter: it should be possible to delete the working tree files but leave the pointer to the revision in
[17:50] <Pieter> I just think the one repo / dir thing is totally whack
[17:50] <Pieter> coming from git / hg :)
[17:51] <radix> Pieter: oh, I assume you mean one of the branches, not just the working tree files
[17:51] <jelmer> Pieter: the "bzr remove-tree" command will do that - you can later create it again using "bzr checkout"
[17:51] <Pieter> it'll just leave an empty dir?
[17:51] <radix> Pieter: when you say "delete one of the working dirs" what exactly do you mean, please?
[17:51] <Pieter> I want to get rid of the files, but keep the branch in the repo
[17:51] <jelmer> Pieter: yes, an empty dir with just a .bzr directory with a couple of files in it
[17:52] <Pieter> that also works in a shared repo?
[17:52] <jelmer> Pieter: Pieter yes
[17:52] <jelmer> whoops, one tab too much :-)
[17:52] <Pieter> ok :) and if I want to delete the whole branch, and then remove any data added by that branch, in order to decrease repo size?
[17:53] <gour> Pieter: what did you bring from git/hg ?
[17:53] <Peng> Pieter: There's no easy way to do that.
[17:53] <jelmer> Pieter: repository's are append-only
[17:53] <Pieter> gour: you mean, which projects?
[17:54] <Peng> jelmer: So are hg's, but mq has a "strip" command.
[17:54] <pasky> By the way, is there any nice paper describing bzr's on-disk data structures etc?
[17:54] <gour> what will rm branch-dir-folder do?
[17:54] <pasky> or do I have to defer to the source code?
[17:54] <jelmer> Peng: what does that do, simply create the repository again but only with the data it actually needs?
[17:54] <Peng> pasky: Perhaps doc/developers/packrepo.txt?
[17:54] <gour> Pieter: i was/am thinking you are migrating from other VCSs to bzr
[17:55] <Peng> jelmer: I dunno. I've always figured it edits the revlogs in some hacky and unreliable way. :P
[17:55] <Pieter> gour: I have my own projects that mostly I am working on (in git). Someone else wants to help me out, but he prefers bzr, so I was looking if it would be good to convert it :)
[17:55] <Peng> pasky: Oh, that file doesn't have very many details.
[17:56] <gour> Pieter: ahh, cool
[17:57] <Pieter> gour: I just prefer git's inline branches somewhat
[17:57] <Pieter> if I have multiple git branches, do I have to supply multiple branch url's for someone to get all of them?
[17:57] <Pieter> when I convert them to bzr, that is
[17:57]  * gour also wonders about bzr's best-practices when rm-ing e.g. 'feature' or 'fix' branches which are very cheap in darcs
[17:58] <pasky> Peng: *nod* :( I'm looking for something like the Mercurial OLS paper or Linus-njs dialog about git packs
[17:59] <pasky> on the other hand, there's more in there than I thought at first glance... I'll read it carefully
[18:10] <pasky> Possibly my question was lost in the other conversation, so I'll try again ;-) - what are the most popular tools for history visualization in bzr, please? The dot-based tool in BzrTools, or something else?
[18:11] <Pieter> you're looking for something like gitk?
[18:11] <dato> pasky: I think `bzr viz`, from bzr-gtk, is commonly used too
[18:12] <Pieter> How can I remove a single revision from my history (not the last revision)
[18:13] <gour> heh, cherrypicking
[18:14] <gour> uncommit -r rev
[18:14] <luks> simple answer: you can't. otherwise you can make a new branch that ends on the revision you want to remove, and use bzr replay for the rest of the branch
[18:15] <Pieter> is replay a plugin?
[18:15] <luks> it's in the rebase plugin
[18:15] <luks> but naturally it won't be the same branch anymore
[18:15] <luks> so merge, pull etc. from the original branch will be broken
[18:15] <Pieter> yeah, I know the risks :)
[18:32] <pasky> dato: thanks - is that http://samba.org/~jelmer/bzr/bzrk.png or smt lelsE?
[18:34] <dato> pasky: precisely that
[18:53] <pasky> dato: thanks!
[19:52] <Rhamphoryncus> Weee.. recovering a hosed repository definitely puts me in a better mood
[19:53] <Pieter> how did your repo get hosed?
[19:53] <Rhamphoryncus> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/150438
[19:53] <Rhamphoryncus> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/150438/comments/9
[19:55]  * Rhamphoryncus wonders if bzr will grow a "Directory not found: Fake it?" prompt ;)
[20:39] <tca>  /join #commits
[21:07] <libwilliam> A couple questions I hope someone can help me with. 1) Is there a function that returns the list of files applicable to be removed? 2) I am looking at messing with 'list_files' but by its description it makes me believe it will just list the files to stdout as opposed to 'unknown' and 'versioned' which returns the list of files.
[21:08] <libwilliam> Ideally I would like a list of just the versioned files.
[21:08] <Odd_Bloke> libwilliam: Could you reiterate (1)?  I don't quite understand what you're looking for.
[21:08] <libwilliam> ok, let me rephrase
[21:08] <libwilliam> I have a GUI that will have a tree view with the list of files under version control
[21:09] <libwilliam> the user will select which files they would like to remove
[21:09] <libwilliam> so I just need a list of files that are currently versioned
[21:09] <libwilliam> not sure if that help clears things up any
[21:10] <fullermd> Well, `bzr ls --versioned` can do it, so you could see what that's calling behind the curtain.
[21:10] <pfharlock> bzr status?
[21:11] <libwilliam> bzr status lists lots of different categories. I was looking for just versioned, I will check out the source for ls --versioned and see if I can figure out what is going on
[21:12] <pfharlock> ahh, I see
[21:14] <pfharlock> hey, I have a silly question, if there are any vim users in here, I've not had much luck with bzr diff --using="vim -d" foo.file.  It works fine with gvim, but I don't always have the option of using Xwindows.  Does anyone else use vim as their diffing tool and has a solution to this problem?
[21:16] <pfharlock> also it tends to completely foobar whatever terminal I'm using at the time to the point where it just has to be closed, which seems odd.
[21:18] <tca> Have anyone seen this problem before: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/235055 ? It looks like there is a problem with the very first revision created by baz_import (I think that was the script used to import to bzr)
[21:22] <tca> ubottu: just retry the link. launchpad is a little slow now, but it is not down...
[21:24] <Odd_Bloke> Hmm, ubottu probably shouldn't direct the timeout comment to the user that pasted the bug number.
[21:24] <Odd_Bloke> james_w: o/
[21:25] <james_w> hi Odd_Bloke
[21:52] <awilkins> Is the Windows/Python installer not supported anymore?
[21:54] <Odd_Bloke> awilkins: I think it is.
[21:54] <Odd_Bloke> Why do you ask?
[21:54] <awilkins> Just not made an appearance in 1.5 flavour yet :-)
[21:55] <Odd_Bloke> It's always lagged somewhat, and bialix is taking a break from Bazaar development ATM.
[21:55] <Odd_Bloke> So he's still doing the installers, but looking for someone to take over.
[22:01] <awilkins> It can't be a hard build, can it?
[22:01] <awilkins> Are the sources for the packages available?
[22:03]  * awilkins finds the Win32ReleaseChecklist page
[22:18] <awilkins> Erm, what if the 1.5 sources won't build (the docs, in this case) ?
[22:20] <awilkins> Heh, ignore me, turns out the HEAD version of docutils has a bug up it's ass
[22:34] <awilkins> I don't suppose anyone would be inclined to trust me to proffer an upload of 1.5 installers for Win32 py2.5 and py2.4 ?
[22:37] <awilkins> Hmm.
[22:44] <awilkins> Do the team have a policy of zero fails in the test suite or are a certain percentage of fails expected?
[22:59] <lifeless> awilkins: drive by comment - alexander had terrible trouble keeping win32 failures at zero; I know this frustrated him, so my guess is that 0 failures on win32 is not currently realistic.
[22:59]  * lifeless waves and heads off
[23:00] <awilkins> Ah well... not strictly relevent since I'm just running the testsuite on my shiny new 1.5 build
[23:00] <awilkins> I can't fix it, it's "released" code
[23:26] <antoranz> Hi guys!
[23:26] <antoranz> remember me? new lines on windows? :-D
[23:26] <antoranz> I thought of a "cleaner" way to knwo what files to process, instead of having them in a file
[23:27] <antoranz> How about using bzr's api to know which files have been aded/modified?
[23:32] <james_w> it's not about knowing what was added/modified, but what rules to apply to those files
[23:34] <james_w> got to go, sorry.
[23:43] <antoranz> show_tree_status?
[23:57] <antoranz> Hell! I'm importing bzrlib.workingtree
[23:57] <antoranz> but python says WorkingTree is not defined
[23:57] <antoranz> but it's right there
[23:58] <antoranz> in /usr/lib/pycnetral/blahblah/bzrlib/workingtree.py
[23:58] <spiv> antoranz: can you pastebin the exact error?
[23:59] <antoranz> sure


[21:41] <nicomachus> Tommalla: nothing wrong with that. :)
[21:41] <EriC^^> Tommalla: does the guest account work?
[21:43] <Tommalla> So, I have this liveUSB of 15.10.  After that I closed the lid of my laptop for a moment and that's when all hell broke loose.
[21:44] <Tommalla> When I reopened the lid, there was a login screen but whenever I logged in (login: ubuntu, pass:blank), there would be an error about some program crashing (unity, I presume?). I rebooted, and now I only get the desktop with no top/left bars nor window decorations.
[21:45] <Tommalla> When I tried to run unity from console, it gave me errors about glib missing. I reinstalled python-gobject and upgraded unity. Now when I try to run unity from console it hangs on "compiz (core) - Error: Plugin 'opengl' not loaded." and nothing more happens.
[21:45] <Tommalla> nicomachus, EriC^^: ^
[21:47] <daftykins> Tommalla: don't see the point in trying to achieve such a task from a live session.
[21:48] <daftykins> and no debug can be done because you'll reboot and it'll all be gone...
[21:49] <simon^^> I am a consultant doing an assignment for a major home appliance company. It is a research project and I'm creating a datalogger for dishwashers. The platform I use is a beaglebone with a custom cape that has the electronics required to talk to the dishwasher. Ubuntu 14.04 was selected for rootfs and I`m using the freshest 4.1 kernel. This device is going to be shipped to customers (brainless people) and they will need
[21:49] <simon^^> to connect to the logger through its wifi and install deb packages using some windows program I will write to update the software on their logger. My question is: what available options do I have for remotely installing software where everything has to be operated by braindead people (consumers)?
[21:50] <daftykins> simon^^: why such a new kernel? also if this thing is ARM, bear in mind #ubuntu-arm exists
[21:50] <nicomachus> 4.1 on 14.04?
[21:50] <daftykins> yeah stops it being ubuntu imo.
[21:50] <simon^^> Irrelevant, I am not going to change kernel
[21:50] <daftykins> simon^^: but you already have, since 4.1 doesn't come with 14.04
[21:50] <daftykins> so what you're running is no longer ubuntu 14.04
[21:51] <simon^^> It is still irrelevant to the question
[21:51] <daftykins> yes, but i'm asking anyway - being stubborn and refusing just makes you come across as though you have an attitude
[21:51] <Tommalla> daftykins: It won't. I have a partition on that liveusb for the data. AFAIK it should stay there.
[21:52] <simon^^> It was a collegue of mine, I agree it was a stupid decision and I have spent tens of hours just to wrestle kernel issues, but right now its what ive got :P
[21:52] <Tommalla> daftykins: There's no other way to do this - this is the only CUDA-compatible machine I have and it's not mine so I cannot modify the hard drive
[21:52] <daftykins> simon^^: why not configure a default samba share that people can throw packages on, then script up automatically parsing that path to install them? if i follow you right
[21:52] <simon^^> He mentioned something about "new networking features"
[21:52] <daftykins> Tommalla: then your plan is flawed.
[21:52] <TJ-> simon^^: if the 'logger' ahs WiFi why can't it update packages itself?
[21:53] <simon^^> daftykins, that is one option, we were also discussing setting up a node server and http posting debs
[21:53] <dusan_> Hello there
[21:54] <simon^^> I was thinking there might be some corporate 'distribute software transparently to clients' way too, but I know of none
[21:54] <daftykins> what do those beaglebones run from? SD cards for the OS, like a Pi?
[21:54] <zerowaitstate> simon^^: take a look at snappy maybe?
[21:54] <Tommalla> daftykins: Well, have a better idea?
[21:54] <zerowaitstate> https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/
[21:54] <daftykins> Tommalla: yeah, arrange proper access to a proper target machine you *can* control.
[21:54] <Tommalla> daftykins: told you, impossible
[21:54] <Tommalla> I can, however, suspend this machine
[21:55] <Tommalla> Which I have been doing
[21:55] <simon^^> It runs from internal flash. First it boots from SD, then it copies the SD card to internal eMMC card and dd's null to the boot sector of the SD using a custom script
[21:55] <daftykins> Tommalla: enjoy then. your constraints sound utterly ridiculous.
[21:55] <simon^^> then it formats the SD and use it for storing logs
[21:55] <daftykins> simon^^: ah, so too slow to ship updated cards i take it?
[21:56] <simon^^> zerowaitstate, I will do that, thanks
[21:56] <dusan_> Is there anyone around who uses Ubuntu Gnome?
[21:56] <zerowaitstate> simon^^: bear in mind snappy isn't really production ready yet
[21:56] <TJ-> simon^^: set-up your own ubuntu mirror archive which contains just the packages required; configure the 'logger' device to use that as its repos, ensure the device can get an IPv4 and IPv6 address using dhcp/dhcpv6 and RA, and that your repo server answers to both IPv4/v6, and has DNS entries for both A and AAAA records, and then all you do is publish a new version of the package in your repo and all the
[21:56] <TJ-> loggers will eventually call-in and upgrade
[21:56] <bekks> dusan_: I bet some people do.#
[21:56] <simon^^> daftykins, not really, it is just something I made quickly for the upcoming release. Later we will probably PXE boot or something
[21:57] <TJ-> I know a gnome that uses Ubuntu :)
[21:57] <simon^^> the installation is done at the factory
[21:57] <dusan_> hahaah nice one :D
[21:57] <daftykins> dusan_: ask the actual question
[21:57] <zerowaitstate> would GNOME Ubuntu be Gubuntu?
[21:58] <simon^^> TJ the logger can only access the laptop of the customer when they connect, it is a design decision to not allow it to access the internet in any way
[21:58] <dusan_> Nah just wondering how many people use it :D
[21:58] <k1l> zerowaitstate: no. its ubuntu-gnome
[21:58] <dusan_> everything is good but gnome-terminal sucks balls
[21:58] <simon^^> and the laptop has very restricted company policy so they cant install anything and they are definately not admin :P
[21:59] <simon^^> and it runs windoze
[21:59] <nicomachus> dusan_: that's really a discussion for #ubuntu-offtopic, this is strictly a support channel
[21:59] <dusan_> Ah ok :)
[21:59] <TJ-> simon^^: how will the customer connect then? will they have to switch to ad-hoc wifi mode, or do you intend the device to operate as an AP, potentially polluting the 802.11bg band ?
[21:59] <dusan_> Ok then I have a real question is there any way to make unity web player run on Ubuntu?
[22:00] <TJ-> simon^^: or is the device connecting by wired Ethernet, or USB?
[22:00] <nicomachus> dusan_: you may find this helpful: https://askubuntu.com/questions/425317/unity-web-player-for-ubuntu
[22:00] <daftykins> dusan_: probably not, i see a lot of articles talking about pipelight hacks but i bet most of those fail now.
[22:00] <daftykins> heh yeah like the above link, which has replies saying it doesn't work
[22:01] <nicomachus> oh.
[22:01]  * nicomachus slinks away and leaves daftykins to handle things
[22:03] <daftykins> nicomachus: i was on the same page when you linked it :D
[22:03]  * nicomachus is still only on level 3 of his Hooked-on-Phonics audiotape
[22:09] <simon^^> TJ-, The device operates as an AP. What do you mean by polluting the 802.11bg band? Do I need to have some certificate to run an AP or is it just a general concern?
[22:10] <simon^^> I checked out snappy, its not really what im looking for
[22:10] <TJ-> simon^^: general concern - most homes are already congested with neighbour APs; adding another isn't going to win friends
[22:10] <TJ-> simon^^: if it only operates when turned on/off manually to do data exchanges that'd be OK, but I'd recommend against an always-on AP device
[22:11] <simon^^> TJ-, it operates when you run a program on your dishwasher
[22:11] <k1l> simon^^: canonical got some thing called "landscape"
[22:11] <simon^^> its powered by the powerboard bus
[22:12] <TJ-> simon^^: any programme, or a special one for data logging? if the former, I'd expect some customers reporting 'bad wifi' for their personal systems when the thing is operating.
[22:13] <TJ-> simon^^: 2.4GHz  band with 802.11b/g (20 MHz channel width) has only 3 completely non-overlapping channels. When it is 802.11n (40MHz channel width) that reduces to 2.
[22:14] <BigMao> Hi there, I've been experiencing freezing on a fresh install of Ubuntu. The input devices are unresponsive for about 1-2 minutes after seeing the login screen.  How can I diagnose this problem?
[22:14] <simon^^> TJ the goal of the product is to "monitor" the habits of the customer, and to parse logs to find suspicious sensor values etc. using analysis software. Only employees will have it and they will get a free dishwasher in exchange for using the system. This means that yes, it runs on any programme
[22:14] <TJ-> simon^^: if those Windows PCs are locked down, I'd suggest the easiest way to have ubuntu updates delivered would be to have a minimal Ubuntu virtual machine to deliver them, running on Windows
[22:16] <simon^^> I was thinking that. The aim is to have an application with two buttons to run on their computer. They press one button when they are home, and one when they are at work.  We want to download logs, update software and add (change) configuration files. Ive developed a bunch of deb packages for all this already but the thing I still have to do is this updating mechanism.
[22:16] <TJ-> simon^^: we have some packages designed to do that kind of thing. apt-mirror, apt-cacher-ng, aptoncd, and others
[22:17] <BigMao> I'm also having an issue where I can't access any of my virtual terminals (CTRL + ALT + F1-F6).  Instead I get a blank screen.  Does anyone have this problem?
[22:17] <TJ-> !apt-offline | simon^^ this can be used on Windows systems too
[22:17] <TJ-> !info apt-offline | simon^^ this can be used on Windows systems too
[22:18] <simon^^> TJ cool! I have a bit of reading to do now :D Thank you for helping me out
[22:20] <ubuntu452> Hi guys! I was wondering about intel graphics drivers on 14.04.3 I went to 01.org but it appears that the packages available there don't have support for 14.04.3, any advice on how to get better support for the graphics card?
[22:20] <daftykins> do not install from that site
[22:20] <ubuntu452> daftykins: I haven't
[22:20] <daftykins> you already have the best support, 3.19 kernel on LTS :)
[22:20] <jesuslovesyouthi> I'm trying to use macchanger with the random option (ie: macchanger -r < interface >); but the outcome is the same address (same as my acutual mac). I did do 'sudo ifconfig wlan0 down and did use prefix my macchanger command with sudo. What am I doing wrong?
[22:21] <daftykins> jesuslovesyouthi: this is Kali isn't it.
[22:21] <ubuntu452> daftykins: My 1024x768 resolution disagrees with you x)
[22:21] <TJ-> ubuntu452: resolution is generally due to the monitor not supplying valid EDID
[22:21] <jesuslovesyouthi> daftykins: ubuntu 14.04
[22:21] <daftykins> ubuntu452: that's not driver based, perhaps you should've started with that as your question... desktop/laptop ? connection type?
[22:21] <ubuntu452> Desktop LAN
[22:22] <daftykins> what has LAN got to do with anything?
[22:22] <ubuntu452> daftykins: I thought it was the intel driver
[22:22] <daftykins> i'm saying connection type of the display :)
[22:22] <TJ-> ubuntu452: "pastebinit <( xrandr -q )" from a GUI terminal shell
[22:23] <ubuntu452> daftykins: omg im sorry, my brain is half turned off... VGA cable, desktop, monitor is a samsung (no idea model, im not close to the PC with the issue atm)
[22:23] <daftykins> not close means what? why are you here asking? :)
[22:24] <daftykins> we need to see direct output and logs etc, so if you're not there, we can't help other than to say it's 2015 - use a digital connection
[22:24] <ubuntu452> daftykins: not close means, it's the work desktop, im at home right now... Let me connect to it
[22:24] <jesuslovesyouthi> Am I supposed to use some other program (like urandom) along with my macchanger command? Bc that's not how I see used here : http://linuxconfig.org/change-mac-address-with-macchanger-linux-command
[22:24] <simon^^> TJ another question :) What is the recommended way for managing private keys (for signing deb packages) for large companies? Do I need to request money for a safe with two large golden keys that have to be turned simultaneously in different ends of a room to lock it up in, or is there a simpler way?
[22:24] <ubuntu452> daftykins: my mobo doesn't support anything else
[22:24]  * nicomachus is curious about how much of the consulting fee is now going to TJ-
[22:24] <daftykins> that's unlikely
[22:25] <ubuntu452> daftykins: but sadly true
[22:25] <daftykins> must be older than i thought
[22:25] <daftykins> nicomachus: he gets _all_ the virtual cookies :)
[22:25] <TJ-> simon^^: yeah, that... or just an air-gapped PC to generate a CA (Certificate Authority) key-pair, and issue your own signing certs with that, and install the public CA cert on the devices
[22:25] <simon^^> haha :P The job of a consultant is to quickly gather intelligence and act as it was there all the time :P
[22:26] <TJ-> nicomachus: so far, 5 chocolate cookies om non non :D
[22:26] <haskel> when you check command -h, it shows a lot of optional arguments, how do you know what the values are for those optional arguments?
[22:26] <haskel> i.e. an option arg: --stdout
[22:26] <daftykins> haskel: by learning to run "man <command>"
[22:26] <haskel> what value do I give it if I want to turn it on?
[22:26] <haskel> daftykins, let me give that a shot
[22:26] <simon^^> TJ thank you, I owe you a bunch of beers man
[22:27] <simon^^> If you`re ever in sweden
[22:27] <nicomachus> clearly he wants chocolate cookies
[22:27] <simon^^> I`ll ship some of the best Amsterdam space cake
[22:27] <haskel> daftykins, it says no manual entry for command
[22:27] <ubuntu452> daftykins: What am I looking for? When I get there again tomorrow, what should I record to get some help?
[22:27] <daftykins> ubuntu452: TJ- asked you to run a command, so...
[22:28] <jesuslovesyouthi> it's cool. I'll worry about it later
[22:28] <jesuslovesyouthi> thx
[22:29] <ubuntu452> TJ-:    1024x768       60.0      800x600        60.3     56.2      640x480        59.9
[22:29] <TJ-> nicomachus: it sounds like fairly typical PLM data collection
[22:29] <daftykins> ubuntu452: don't paste to here
[22:29] <ubuntu452> TJ-: those are the modes supported atm
[22:30] <daftykins> ubuntu452: you needed to install "pastebinit" then run the command given
[22:30] <nicomachus> TJ-: I was just trying to mess with him.
[22:30] <daftykins> then link us to the URL resulting from it :)
[22:30] <ubuntu452> daftykins: ^-^
[22:30] <TJ-> ubuntu452: we'd need to see the pastebin, because it gives more contextual info, but those resolutions look to be the standard VESA resolutions when there's no better EDID info from the monitor. Check in /var/log/Xorg.0.log for clues that EDID is failing
[22:32] <corvo> hi guys, trying to install yumi and first I couldn't because I didn't have gambas3-runtime installed on my 12.04. I found a way to manually install it by following a wiki, I did but then I had to create a dummy package for it with 'equivs'. Followed that procedure too but it gave me this error http://pastebin.fr/43624. I still tried to install it after all (now that I manage to manually install gambas3-runtime even if without equivs...) and It works but it doe
[22:32] <corvo> sn't start giving me this other error "Cannot load class 'TrayIcon': Unable to load class file. FMain.FMain.0" Dunno what to do anymore, help! Please :)
[22:32] <ubuntu452> TJ-: Hypothetically if the issue is with the monitor not being correctly identified, I presume I'd have to install the monitor drivers, is that right?
[22:32] <nicomachus> corvo: any reason you're still running 12.04?
[22:32] <daftykins> ubuntu452: no
[22:33] <daftykins> ubuntu452: i take it you're new to Linux and normally use Windows? drivers aren't the answer :)
[22:33] <TJ-> ubuntu452: no, my first suggestion if EDID fails is to check the pins at both ends of the VGA monitor - specifically the DDC pins
[22:33] <corvo> nicomachis: hardware stability with my machine, tried 13.10 and 14.04 but there were no doubts I should have go back to 12.04, way faster and better for my pc
[22:33] <corvo> nicomachus: hardware stability with my machine, tried 13.10 and 14.04 but there were no doubts I should have go back to 12.04, way faster and better for my pc
[22:33] <ubuntu452> daftykins, TJ- I haven't used Linux in a while... forgot about the configuration issues after installing a distro =)
[22:34] <TJ-> ubuntu452: EDID is transferred over the DDC link as digital data. That failing is a common problem due to physical issues. Believe it or not, some cheaper VGA cables leave out the DDC signal
[22:35] <corvo> anyway, I obviously canno install dummy package for gambas3-runtime and that bothers yumi's boot, any idea how to solve it?
[22:35] <ubuntu452> TJ-: That could be the case, sadly I'm at home now and that is the PC at work (probably they got a cheap ass VGA cable), any ideas how to fix it not involving changing the cable? (It might take weeks b4 they get the right one and I don't want to have to buy one myself)
[22:37] <TJ-> ubuntu452: you'd have to create custom modelines matching what the monitor can do, and add them to the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file in a 'Monitor' section, along with an associated 'Screen' section
[22:37] <daftykins> we're talking a couple of pounds,dollars,euros
[22:37] <daftykins> go on, splash out for Christmas :P
[22:37] <ubuntu452> daftykins: I'm cheap too xD
[22:37] <TJ-> ubuntu452: swap the cable from 1 from a Windows PC - it'll never notice - they 'll just blame the drivers :D
[22:37] <ro> Hello. Im trying to wipe a ssd. Im using the command "pv < /dev/zero/ > /dev/sdb" Im getting an eta of 265hrs. Is there any way to speed this up?
[22:38] <TJ-> ro: use the SSD's ATA Secure Erase command. 10 seconds
[22:38] <mcphail> ubuntu452: what graphics driver are you actually using just now? Has the system dropped to the vesa driver? Have you booted with "nomodeset" (which will drop to the vesa driver if there is no proprietary driver installed)?
[22:38] <ubuntu452> TJ-: Hahahahahaha! I don't see many ppl around using windoes machines... It's mostly mac users (they have all their cool cables and stuff)
[22:39] <daftykins> where cool = ridiculous
[22:40] <ubuntu452> mcphail: I literally just installed ubuntu 14.04 today on the machine, it was running 12 something...
[22:40] <mcphail> ubuntu452: what is the native resolution you are looking for?
[22:40] <ubuntu452> daftykins: indeed, sadly they'll probably have to replace *ALL* the cables with the next version of the mac
[22:40] <daftykins> ubuntu452: wouldn't hurt to see a "pastebinit /var/log/Xorg.0.log"
[22:41] <ubuntu452> daftykins: can't provide it :( tried sshing over the VPN only to realise that I turned off the machine before leaving work :'((((
[22:41] <daftykins> lol.
[22:42] <daftykins> then what was the faked resolution output you shared earlier?
[22:42] <ubuntu452> daftykins: I was so proud of myself for being a good citizen and turning it off as I left :/
[22:43] <TJ-> ubuntu452: would have been more fun to do it remotely over SSH :p
[22:43] <daftykins> well write it down for tomorrow, install 'pastebinit', run "pastebinit /var/log/Xorg.0.log" and write down the link to share here when available
[22:43] <ubuntu452> mcphail: Something nicer than 1024x768
[22:43] <ubuntu452> TJ-: that's what I was hoping for xP
[22:43] <ubuntu452> TJ-: I'll enable wake on lan for next time ^-^
[22:43] <nicomachus> everything is more fun when done remotely over SSH, EXCEPT for distro upgrades.
[22:43] <mcphail> ubuntu452: but what is the res of the monitor?
[22:43] <daftykins> maybe leave it on and double check you installed openssh-server, too...
[22:43]  * nicomachus learned the hard way
[22:44] <TJ-> ubuntu452: and don't forget, check the hardware connections, that might be all it needs. I've seen the DDC pins bent inside the connector several times. *gently* prising them back to straight fixes it - but don't snap them!
[22:44] <TJ-> nicomachus: what issues did you have with distr upgrades?
[22:44] <ubuntu452> mcphail: might be something like 1900x... but I'm not 100% sure
[22:45] <ubuntu452> mcphail: I'll check the hardware tomorrow if the VGA cable doesn't work and write the Xorg.conf file by hand to a nicer resolution
[22:45] <nicomachus> TJ-: It was a few months ago. something ended up getting corrupted on the reboot, and I lost the whole HDD because it was all encrypted and couldn't be recovered. It was a loooooong deal.
[22:46] <TJ-> nicomachus: that is where installing dropbear does wonders, especially in the initrd
[22:46] <mcphail> ubuntu452: if it _is_ a 1920x1080 monitor, you can try adding "drm_kms_helper.edid_firmware=edid/1920x1080.bin" to your kernel boot line. If you're using radeon or nouveau drivers, that should prompt them to set resolution correctly
[22:46] <daftykins> another win for encryption :D
[22:46] <daftykins> mcphail: intel only so we're told.
[22:46] <ubuntu452> mcphail: no radeon/nouveau drivers, it's intel only (should definitely request a GPU for that thing though...)
[22:46] <nicomachus> TJ-: I just googled dropbear and got a mythical australian koala thing...
[22:47] <mcphail> daftykins: ahh. Haven't tried it on intel, but it should work on any kernel modesetting drivers
[22:47] <nicomachus> ah, this? https://github.com/mkj/dropbear
[22:47] <TJ-> daftykins: encryption can only break if the LUKS header gets its mast key damaged. sectors in the data area being corrupted are just like corrupted sectors anywhere
[22:47] <daftykins> nicomachus: perhaps add linux :P
[22:47] <TJ-> !info dropbear | nicomachus
[22:47] <mcphail> ubuntu452: give it a try anyway. Haven't tested on intel, but worst that will happen will be you'll have to reboot
[22:47] <nicomachus> TJ-: that's exactly what happened to me. the LUKS header key was corrupted and couldn't be recovered.
[22:47] <TJ-> nicomachus: it's statically linked (so binaries are stand-alone)
[22:48] <TJ-> nicomachus: and of course you had created a dump of the LUKS header on some removable media :D
[22:48] <nicomachus> TJ-: Of course!
[22:48] <ubuntu452> mcphail: If I did that, would I get that resolution on all TTYs?
[22:48] <nicomachus> (after that all happened....)
[22:48] <TJ-> nicomachus: stable-door, horse-bolted, !
[22:49] <mcphail> ubuntu452: it should give you the opportunity to set that resolution
[22:49]  * nicomachus learns from mistakes, but unfortunately often fails to learn things *before* the mistakes happen
[22:49] <ubuntu452> So, unrelated to what we've discussed so far regarding the intel drivers, how do I improve the resolution of the TTYs in an ubuntu machine?
[22:49] <daftykins> they wouldn't be mistakes if you didn't :>
[22:50] <daftykins> ubuntu452: they're part of the same thing actually, so just focus on checking those things tomorrow
[22:50] <noobstrap> Hello. Installed radeon drivers and ubuntu isn't booting. What logs should I check?
[22:50] <ubuntu452> daftykins: nvm... Just checked this machine's TTY resolution and it's behaving as expected
[22:50] <daftykins> noobstrap: which specifically, 'fglrx' ?
[22:51] <ubuntu452> daftykins: Yeah I'll have a look, thanks guys!
[22:51] <noobstrap> yes
[22:51] <daftykins> see you can't call them radeon, since 'radeon' is also a driver ;)
[22:51] <daftykins> how did you install?
[22:51] <daftykins> which ubuntu are we even talking about? which card too?
[22:51] <noobstrap> from the additional hardware menu
[22:52] <noobstrap> I managed to uninstall the drivers and ubuntu is working again but im interested in making the mwork
[22:52] <daftykins> gonna need the above info then
[22:52] <noobstrap> I'd like to troubleshoot but i don't know which logs to check
[22:53] <mcphail> ubuntu452: I think you can still pass vga modes these days, as well: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/svga.txt
[22:53] <noobstrap> I'm on ubuntu 15.04
[22:53] <daftykins> right and the card?
[22:53] <noobstrap> radeon 6870
[22:53] <daftykins> did you also get offered fglrx-updates to try?
[22:54] <noobstrap> yes i've tried them both
[22:54] <noobstrap> I used to solve this issue in the past by installing the linux headers
[22:54] <noobstrap> but it didn't work this time
[22:55] <daftykins> when it fails, do TTYs work? or do you get everything blank?
[22:55] <noobstrap> it freezes int he ubuntu loading screen and cant swith tty
[22:55] <noobstrap> can only turn off by powerbutton
[22:56] <daftykins> mmm not much luck trying to get any logs out of that then - tried booting with 'quiet splash' removed?
[22:57] <ubuntu452> mcphail: Those look horrible, although it appears to have an 'autodetect' feature... Not brave enough to try that (don't feel like frying the monitor)
[22:57] <noobstrap> ye
[22:59] <noobstrap> don't know where i fucked up, I'm prob gonna fresh install the latest LTS version
[22:59] <daftykins> !language
[22:59] <daftykins> bear in mind AMD just put your card into legacy status
[22:59] <CountryfiedLinux> howdy
[22:59] <CountryfiedLinux> Does the Ubuntu installer install any closed source drivers by default?
[23:00] <CountryfiedLinux> for graphics
[23:00] <bekks> CountryfiedLinux: no.
[23:00] <CountryfiedLinux> ok cool bekks thanks.
[23:01] <noobstrap> Thanks daftykins, sorry for the language ^_^
[23:05] <daftykins> noobstrap: you could pastebin the output of installing one of the packags, so we can see if the module is built correctly
[23:10] <utio> does anyone know what software i can use to help build css based GTK3 theme ?
[23:10] <utio> I really want to edit the Arc theme which is in .css , but I dont know what the CSS fields are to change the value !!
[23:11] <cuddylier> What is the maximum throughput of a 6Gb/s LSI raid card if I have a systme with PCIe slots?
[23:14] <noobstrap> ok here's the fglrx install output http://pastebin.com/mUpXmXqw
[23:17] <BigMao> Hi there, I'm having a lot of trouble getting larger X11 fonts to work in Ubuntu 14.04.  I want to do this by setting the DPI in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.  Can somebody tell me how to do this?
[23:20] <BigMao> The text scaling factor does not work when the program uses X11 fonts.
[23:22] <dgistando> hello
[23:22] <dgistando> no
[23:23] <dgistando> whats the point?
[23:24] <sector_0> hey guys
[23:24] <sector_0> any idea why my wireless keyboard and mouse combo doesn't work correctly?
[23:24] <sector_0> I plugged in the dongle, and put batteries in the mouse and keyboards, with correct polarity
[23:25] <sector_0> the keyboard work fine as far as I see, but the mouse doesn't work at all
[23:25] <sector_0> when I turn on the mouse, the light flashes couple times and never comes back on
[23:25] <daftykins> not associated perhaps
[23:26] <sector_0> daftykins, what you mean?
[23:29] <OerHeks> If you cannot pair the mouse, sounds like broken, bring it back where you bought it.
[23:29] <daftykins> sector_0: the receiver must be associated with both parts, what make are they?
[23:30] <sector_0> daftykins, OerHeks it's an old model so that's why I'm not too convinced it's a hardware issue
[23:30] <sector_0> I think it might be a driver issue
[23:30] <sector_0> the model is BL-IBM-KM500
[23:30] <sector_0> it's a nipponamerica device
[23:30] <daftykins> well as long as all 3 were used together in the past, they should already be associated
[23:31] <OerHeks> No, i don't think it is a driver problem.
[23:31] <daftykins> agreed, the likelihood 50% of a receiver is working is quite low
[23:32] <TJ-> is it a Bluetooth device, or using its own radio modulation/frequency?
[23:33] <sector_0> TJ-, well it's using 2.4GHz but it doesn't follow the bluetooth standard from what I gather, since my bluetooth dongle don't detect them
[23:34] <daftykins> lol
[23:34] <retrojeff> if /run/user/1000/dconf/user is owned by root the desktop will crash
[23:34] <retrojeff> and cause 100% cpu usage
[23:34] <sector_0> daftykins, well I recently bought it
[23:34] <retrojeff> stuff like mate-panel etc
[23:34] <daftykins> ah so they are not guaranteed to work together
[23:35] <daftykins> sector_0: no buttons on the receiver for sync i take it?
[23:35] <retrojeff> who and what changes /run/user/1000/dconf/user to be owned by root
[23:35] <TJ-> sector_0: if the receiver can't pair with the mouse that points to something outside the OS, unless they are paired but the receiver needs a driver to handle the mouse, but not the keyboard.
[23:35] <sector_0> I mean the real reason I bought it was to replace my old keyboard, the mouse is secondary but it'll be nice to have it
[23:35] <k1l> retrojeff: missusage of sudo and root account?
[23:36] <sector_0> TJ-, well I'm not 100% sure it doesn't "pair"
[23:36] <TJ-> sector_0: their is usually an identifable LED sequence to identify the modes, check the manual
[23:36] <TJ-> s/their/there/
[23:37] <TJ-> sector_0: compare "the light flashes couple times and never comes back on" with what the manual says should be happening
[23:42] <sector_0> TJ-, the manual doesn't say anything about flash patterns
[23:46] <daftykins> sector_0: best advice, test it on a Windows machine
[23:46] <daftykins> no point going to length working it out when you can just check
[23:47] <sector_0> daftykins, I only have access to a windows 8 computer and as is expected....there's no driver
[23:47] <TJ-> sector_0: from what I'm reading, the device presents as standard USB HID devices, so no special OS drivers are required  (the standard USB HID class driver is sufficient) so the issue is in the hardware
[23:47] <sector_0> oh well, at least the keyboard's working
[23:48] <daftykins> http://www.nipponamerica.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=4719&search=BL-IBM-KM500
[23:53] <OerHeks> sector_0, so you bought it recently, it does not work on windows 8, and you think it is a ubuntu driver issue??
[23:54] <daftykins> i'd put the batteries in backwards :> those things look cheap and nasty
[23:54] <OerHeks> change the keyboard batteries with the ones in the mouse ..
[23:55] <sector_0> OerHeks, in case you haven't realize windows 8 doesn't have drivers for a lot of things
[23:55] <sector_0> especially older hardware
[23:55] <OerHeks> unlikely for keyboards & mice..
[23:55] <daftykins> that's utter rubbish
[23:55] <OerHeks> this is just a waste of time.
[23:55] <Gallomimia> don't worry, windows 8 is open source so you can add any drivers you want. oh wait.... no that's something else
[23:56] <daftykins> it is not a driver issue - check your foolish Windows comments at the door, thanks
[23:56] <sector_0> OerHeks, I know...just saying
[23:57] <sector_0> and besides like I said windows doesn't recognize it as a HID input device so your argument is technically invalid
[23:58] <daftykins> regardless of what you think, not a Windows channel :)
[23:58] <sector_0> anyways scrap the whole discussion, like I said the mouse isn't important, it was just a cheap buy for a keyboard replacement


[19:44] <pleia2> sent a mail to the list - but to remind everyone here too our meeting is in a little over 3 hours over in #ubuntu-meeting
[20:49] <doctormo> pleia2: 6pm EST right?
[20:49] <pleia2> doctormo: 7
[20:49] <pleia2> http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=15&year=2010&hour=23&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
[20:50] <pleia2> ~2 hrs from now
[20:50] <pleia2> wait, time confuses me
[20:50] <pleia2> yeah
[20:50] <Pendulum> yes 2 hours from now
[20:50] <Pendulum> 7PM EST
[20:51] <doctormo> Pendulum, pleia2: thanks
[20:51]  * pleia2 fixes her eastern time clock
[20:51] <pleia2> darn thing was statically set to EST rather than New York time
[20:53] <doctormo> pleia2: Interesting, so EST is still 13:53, but NY time is not EST and is 14:53 ?
[20:54] <pleia2> NY time is EDT now
[20:54] <pleia2> when you set the timezone based on location it follows DST properly
[20:54] <doctormo> aight
[21:39] <pleia2> Vantrax, bodhi_zazen will you guys be around for the meeting in 1 hr, 20 min?
[21:40] <bodhi_zazen> I will try
[21:42] <pleia2> :)
[21:43] <Vantrax> thats why im here
[21:43]  * Vantrax must attend more meetings
[21:44] <pleia2> yay!
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> are we meeting in this channel ?
[22:44] <cprofitt> not sure bodhi_zazen
[22:44] <pleia2> #ubuntu-meeting
[22:47] <cprofitt> pleia2: are you going to run the meeting?
[22:48] <pleia2> sure
[22:48] <pleia2> unless anyone objects or prefers to lead it
[22:48] <cprofitt> I think it proper for you to do so
[22:55] <ZachK_> What meeting?
[22:56] <doctormo> ZachK_: Ubuntu Learning meeting
[22:56] <ZachK_> Ah...shall I sit in?
[22:56] <doctormo> sure
[22:58] <pleia2> nigelb: you about?
[23:18] <nigelb> sorry folks for being late, just waking up
[23:58] <doctormo> If anyone is an irc mod, can we update the topic?
[23:58] <nigelb> doctormo: I think you can
[23:59] <pleia2> ah, what should we say?