[11:07] <pabs3> GPG issue https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2022/06/30/1
[12:13] <wgrant> pabs3: Thanks a lot for the link, nasty one.
[12:14] <pabs3> yeah, on another channel it was mentioned that Launchpad PPAs might be vulnerable to this
[12:14] <wgrant> pabs3: Do you happen to understand how control of a secret key is important? The introduction mentions it, but the details don't.
[12:16] <pabs3> I don't sorry. maybe you need a valid signature, which then gets misinterpreted for some reason?
[12:16] <wgrant> Oh, I misparsed the text as saying the secret part needed to be in the keyring.
[12:16] <wgrant> Nevermind, I see now.


 @mariogrip, no!?? I'm right!?  How about the Say Ubuntu app??
 @mariogrip, and how about our recommended way of contacting you? :)
 @dariusc93, kick butt and have fun!
 Does anyone here have a link for me to the plasma mobile telegram?
 @XavierXX, https://t.me/plasmamobile
 @wayneoutthere, i feel targeted
 Thank you
 @mariogrip, does it feel good or bad?  I like getting targeted.  Where is @bhushanshah ?
 Also we always take recommendations for targeting.
 If we target you is usually means we love you.
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/PjBF0IA0/file_3659.mp4
 @wayneoutthere, Awwww! love all you guys too! ❤
 Public Announcement: Yes, we have targeted Marius and his poor Ubuntu pronunciation, but it is out of love and care.
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/P8o8xVzC/file_3660.mp4
 @mariogrip @UniversalSuperBox I remember seeing some issue about ofobo and other configs but can't find the issue now... Got link?
 Yes
 https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/409
 @bhushanshah, ah yes, that's the idea of combinding it all into one central config file
 (this sounds like a job for Halium 👀)
 yeah
 Hm, can this issue be moved to halium projectmanagement?
 I wonder
 I have started slightly on a compat for this
 Because this is issue I'm looking into
 @bhushanshah, sure
 But I don't think this is Launchpad
 Bah, i'll put it there
 gets email
 never mind
 What's with the camera permissions on the fp2? Gone again?
 FWIW, it will be really hard to use one config and get away with it, and also e.g there are some plasma mobile specific configs I want to include in the device image... So first initial solution would be to add support for utouch like overlay in the hybris boot
 @mariogrip, this is just a simple python script that reads one config and creates the format the different components expect
 And then think about one config file
 @bhushanshah, ubports-boot does that. :/
 @UniversalSuperBox, yes :) and so much more
 I know, I'm back and forth on it. It's just... We're going to find every issue that was solved by it while we try to replace it
 @UniversalSuperBox, Not that I like that solution
 What would you prefer?
 It's just interim solution I feel like, I would prefer a solution which is either 1 config file or completely out of initrd solution
 You said it yourself, you have some PM-specific things you want to include
 @UniversalSuperBox, and you can so easely do that with ubports-boot
 Tbh, again I'm not sure if it's PM specific btw ^^^
 it's just that, it has all the feauters we want, why try to recreate that? insted focuse on improving what we have
 It's gst-omx and gst Droid Configuration files
 also it's libc :) not that damn bionic
 Mhmm. There are some things that aren't needed in ubports-boot, maybe the 'local' and 'nfs' scripts. Those can be removed.
 Which might or not be useful for utouch
 I agree that it's not simple, but out of that complexity comes a very reliable system
 It's exactly what I'm finding with the hybris-boot compatibility. Every issue that we're going to hit using hybris-boot is already solved by engineers who work(ed) in embedded systems and were paid very well to do so.
 Every filesystem corruption, udev dependency, mountpoint hit-or-miss...
 @UniversalSuperBox, Initially reason for not using ubports boot was, mainly it did get in way of booting systemd as far as I remember and it was hard to debug it.. but not fully sure
 I'll dig irc logs and figure out why we choose hybris boot
 Well, now I have a better understanding of it. Maybe I could help out.
 (We'd also rename it, to be clear. ;) )
 Yeah right 😂
 That was another issue (not)
 😛
 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 If need be for debugging, we could probably add more breakpoints. Just for good measure.
 Actually, no maybe. We could do that. `maybe-break "breakpoint"`
 I think it figured out why it got in the way of systemd, and it's probably the same reason that hybris-boot got in the way of upstart
 No that was not it, I believe it even worked for Marius once.. but for me and others never
 Aha, it uses `run_init` rather than `switch_root` for one
 Well run_init is wrapper around switch root no?
 https://askubuntu.com/questions/744128/what-is-run-init-actually
 They're basically the same thing
 Btw.. @mariogrip first ping about libcompat in new year
 😆
 I TOLD YOU THAT WOULD HAPPEN!
 :P
 I have been bugging him as you asked, @bhushanshah
 @dohbee, +1
 @UniversalSuperBox, nice work! now bug @bhushanshah too
 @bhushanshah, I will have it ready for our halium meeting :)
 or before
 So, uh, @bhushanshah
 hybris-boot booted Halium on the first try
 Darn it, did it again
 ubports-boot
[02:24] <tgBot3> ahsanit was added by: ahsanit
[02:31] <tgBot3> Javirojo was added by: Javirojo
 @UniversalSuperBox, Interesting, I suppose that will require changes on userspace side?
 Meaning?
 Well to start container I believe, changes in rootfs will be needed?
 Possibly a few, I was pretty phased out on work by the time I got there
 Ubports-boot actually gives us a lot more in terms of the container. It mounts the Android initrd, puts vendor in the right place, mounts all the partitions
 You can also provide /data/.writable_image if you please to enable rw /
 Okay I'll experiment more about it
 Right, let me know where you get and I'll see if I can take it from there
 One thing, it does require you to change your fstab to put `/dev/mmcblk...` in data's line.
 That's not great, but could probably be solved right quick since we already have fixup-mountpoints
 Right
 Or some usage of findfs / blkid maybe
 No `block` BTW, we don't symlink dev into dev block
 I think there's a reason that Canonical didn't do thay
 Device vendors being not sane?
 Yeo
 And not labeling partition correctly
 -.-
 Yep
 Looking at the initrd, it feels like there were lots of lessons learned the hard way in that thing
 Even down to the workarounds for when vendors are stupid with `aboot` and the cmdline
 Oh! There's a PR that you'll need
 https://github.com/ubports/ubports-boot/pull/8
 Pull that, it'll make things much easier.
 Okay
 Btw, I saw no huge issues with e2fsck
 Great
 Must have been a fluke for me, then
 I triple checked this time that e2fsck was done indeed.. and not like last time
 😆
 So did I
 @UniversalSuperBox, You'll need this
 Okay yeah
 But the rootfs actually boots without it...
 Somehow
 Well halium rootfs wouldn't have issues
 Everything is read-only, but systemd don't care
 Or maybe systemd is remounting rw?
 Oh
 @bhushanshah, Nope, I tried to touch some files
 No logging, obviously
 Container didn't start... But ssh came up and it was ready to go
 Alright, hope that works out for you... Otherwise I'll be back in about 8 hours
 Okay
 (I'll try it on halium 5 device btw and not halium 7)
 Shouldn't matter but my N5X is occupied
 Shouldn't matter.
 Oh! `mkdir /android` followed by a reboot will greatly help. That's where `/data` and such get mounted
 Ok
 Would it be possible to install UT on a Meizu Pro 5 International Version ?
 ^Mos def, I did exactly that and on the 64GB version no less.
 Ok thanks yes i dont know if it would a 64GB version...
 He say that it cost new 500 euro so i think it zould be the 64GB version... but i will ask him
 I got my one for "95% new” whatever that means but for £165 or so, eBay, Chinese seller ^__^
 @TartanSpartan, Nice yes i try to found one into the EU, as here in Belgium you can not buy them only chinees version
 @ahsanit, Hello Kamil and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @Javirojo, Hello Javi and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 Anyone got a clue on this? Trying to go from UBPorts 15.04 to 16.04 on my Pro 5.  … ~$ sudo ubuntu-device-flash —server=http://system-image.ubports.com touch —device=turbo —channel=ubports-touch/16.04/devel —bootstrap —wipe —verbose … [sudo] password for tomas:  … 2018/01/09 08:58:26 Device is |turbo| … 2018/01/09 08:58:26 Flashing version 11 from ubports-touch/16.04/devel channel and server http://system-image.ubports.com t
[08:02] <tgBot3> 08:58:37 Waiting for device to enter recovery mode ... … Failed to enter Recovery
 (Photo, 1898x2560) https://irc.ubports.com/5UumZMkp/file_3662.jpg
 This is my "recovery mode"
 Just the Ubuntu logo, but not spinning or anything.
 Hi guys would that be a ok to flash UT on it ?
 32GB … Modell M576H …  I talk about the Meizu Pro 5 …  And the software on it is Flyme <IP_ADDRESS>G
 Yes Rudi, as you asked me via PM, I think that will be just fine as it's the International version.
 According to the first link in this screenshot, that should support my statement:
 (Photo, 1920x1080) https://irc.ubports.com/RaCLkE5A/file_3664.jpg
 I think the only one people have trouble with is the locked Chinese one which is different. And even with that I believe people can swap different Android variants onto it, unlock it and make it friendly to Ubuntu. But yeah, your Int version should work great if you flash it according to correct instructions.
 @TartanSpartan, China has some serious policy on locking down handsets. Over the years it came to a situationwhen my non-Chnese handsets will no longer accept Chinese SIM card, or will only allow calls, but not data, even if the SIM has data plan included. … Sure, I can go to one of big telecom headquarters and they can somehow unlock it, but if I buy any random handset in the Chinese domestic market, it will work out of the box. … It's al
[08:37] <tgBot3> disturebing if you ask me.
 Be that as it may, again, it's irrelevant to him because he's going for a sanctioned version.
 People with OnePlus devices, have a vote here: https://forums.oneplus.net/threads/question-of-the-week-31-operating-system-and-custom-roms.743631/
 Ok thanks
[09:41] <tgBot3> DadoUnyu was added by: DadoUnyu
 Hi @DadoUnyu! I'm part of the Welcoming Team. To get you started, please take a look at https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome and feel free to ask any question, especially in the Newcomers Room!
[10:22] <tgBot3> <Lukas Wolfskin> Hey folks, anyone know if therese will be any development towards exchange support in Dekko? @DanChapman
[10:22] <tgBot3> <Lukas Wolfskin> Damn auto spell...
[10:22] <tgBot3> <Lukas Wolfskin> (Sticker, 336x512) https://irc.ubports.com/8Vyn7nLP/file_3665
 hey everyone I'd like to use an android program called anki —would it be possible to do this w/ ubports now or any time soon?
[10:23] <tgBot3> <Lukas Wolfskin> There, not Therese
 @Lukas Wolfskin, Yes but not in the near future
 Fwd from bhdouglass: As teased earlier: https://github.com/bhdouglass/clickable/releases/tag/v3.1.0 … Clickable now has a `--desktop` argument that you can use to run your app on the desktop! Not quite an emulator and your mileage may vary. Please let me know of your experiences good & bad!
 I'm reading the community update and it looks like the meizu pro is the device that gets support for features first
 support for snaps and anbox are mentioned for that device specifically...
 I wish I had one of those rather than a nexus 5
 @Christopher, patience, everything is WIP and still green
 humm, question everyone: my BQ E4.5 have already very small amount of free memory ( without running any app, data disabled ) on 15.04, i have doubt it will support 16.04
 Eventually every core device will receive the update
 right now anbox is not useful its just for debugging
 @wayneoutthere
 Fwd from YougoChats: Has someone gone through the trouble of mapping/listing UT/ubports related telegram groups and their puroposes? Would be nice to have an overview without having to stumble upon them and having to join them to see what they're about
[11:09] <tgBot3> PsP238 was added by: PsP238
 Hey @PsP238! I'm part of the Welcoming Team. Please check out https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome to get up to speed and feel free to ask any question, especially in the Newcomers Room!
 @popescu_sorin those videos look awesome
 also out of curiosity, are there any user-visible differences with ubports 16.04?
 redmi note 4 support Ubuntu touch?
 @PsP238, (from the FAQ:) Due to limited time and resources, we are not porting to new devices until the 16.04 rebase is finished.  … You can see a list of devices where ports are in the works at https://ubports.com/page/devices - click on any of the links to find out more about the state of the images in question.__
 @peternerlich, that is false
 @Christopher, no
 we are porting new devices to Halium, which is UBports 16.04 is based on
 but there is no Xiaomi port anyways, so that doesn't really matter
 Oh, is it? We'll need to update the FAQ then
 I will tellyou more — we got 2 new devices ported this weel
 we're not porting to legacy non-halium base
 But I though I read that the switch to Halium will be made a few updates into the 16.04 rebase (just heard)
[11:30] <tgBot3> <Lukas Wolfskin> @DanChapman, Cheers!
 @peternerlich, I honestly have no idea about that, I don't really work on UBports. I mainly work on Halium and Plasma Mobile
 @vanyasem will ubports work with newish devices through the support of halium? like new samsung devices?
 @Christopher, Halium is not a magic thing that enables support for all the devices you want
 so that's a solid no
 Samsung is a pain in the ass to work with overall
 we have added support for some new devices like HTC 10, OP3, and OP5
 Houston we have a problem 😱
 The soupergroup disappeared on the desktop version of telegram
 Any idea why?
 And there is also someone from the fairphone 2 + ubuntu touch group with the same expirience...
 Same here. Desktop app is affected, iOS is ok, UT app is ok, web app is ok.
 That was me. For me they are back.
 ok, the desktop version is back 😅
 Yup, back here too.  You’ll be out (and recycled) in no time
 *googles How to skip recycling by the matrix*
[12:33] <tgBot3> Ahmad Musaffa was added by: Ahmad Musaffa
 I's there a command line to view the hour in GPS?
 @lduboeuf, I've corrently got (out of 7.7GB) 3.1GB free and 3.2 GB used by Ubuntu. Within the expected limitations of an older phone that seems fine to me. 16.04 might leave it a bit tight for memory but, in my non-expert view, still workable as long as I keep it clean and don't expect too much of it.
 @Mark, currently not corrently :)
 humm your talsking about disk usage not ram, here without anything open: around 750Mo... only 250 free memory 😱
 unity8 (core + dash) is responsible for 30% of total
 @KrisJacewicz, that's messed up.  check it out @exar_kun
 @YougoChats, thanks for comments.  more than one person has been asking for this this week.  we are trying to figure out how to present this becasuse some groups are fully public while others are 'open' but 'not to everyone'.  Thanks for your patience, it's on our list.
 @DC7IA, flag this guy - he 'googles'
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/zbScrXuL/file_3666.mp4
 😔😄
 Welcome Ahmad! I'm part of the Welcoming Team. To get started, check out https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome and feel free to ask any question, especially in the Newcomers Room!
 😃😃😃😃😃😃
 https://github.com/rekols/deepin-font-installer
 hello
 A news item with exciting updates to Clickable has just been dropped in the UBports News Channel.  To learn more about this news be sure to subscribe to the News Channel here: https://t.me/ubports_news
 @vanyasem, Well lets say its false for Halium-based OSes. Its true for UT. Since none of the UT core members focusing on porting now. Still a few of them are porting in their free time :)
 @Flohack, UBports 16.04 is Halium based
 @vanyasem, I know ;)
 @vanyasem, current builds already use Halium??
 Not afaik
 https://youtu.be/PnvvHAf2H-0
 meh
 @samzn, yeah... i don't know.  i'm between 'meh' and 'hmm' … I think UT convergence is still the only way to go: Buy a really great mobile device and then make plugging into *any* screen easy and awesome....
 @wayneoutthere, well, we can converge this
 yeah..... true dat... that's why I have some 'hmm'
[15:33] <tgBot3> desertjellyfish was added by: desertjellyfish
 but... screen... i don't know.  too small? well, I think you're right. this has some value right now becuase there is not an existing infrastructure for 'public convergence'.  and... now that I think about it, you can't really have a 'public convergence' becuase then the public will see your screen.... unless it was like a 1950's phone booth... which is pretty cool.
 well if someone ports to the razer phone i guess
 @desertjellyfish, Hey @desertjellyfish I'm part of the Welcoming Team. Please check out https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome to get up to speed.  There is a Newcomers room as well for you.  Thanks for joining!
 @wayneoutthere, I can easily read most people's cell phones today, from a distance.
 @dohbee, haha.  this is facxt
 @wayneoutthere, :)
 @Javacookies, how can I copy the `system-connections` folder? I've tried with `adb pull` but it copies an empty folder, I copied in the `Documents` folder and then tried to copy the folder from nautilus but it can copy only the empty folder and says acces denied to the files...
 @Michele, needs root permissions to read.
 oh yes, I forgot to say I tried also with sudo
 You need to activate it on the device
 copy the dir with sudo to ~/, then change ownership of the files on the copied dir (`sudo chown -R phablet.phablet ~/system-connections` for example)
 then you should be able to read as normal user or over mtp
 ah ok, thanks I tried to `chmod 777` but I didn't think to change the owner!
 oops, I was wrong... I can't copy the folder to my home on the phone...
 Go settings on phone and about and enable developer mode
 I already have it enabled
 (Photo, 1080x1920) https://irc.ubports.com/JBo3hwpX/file_3668.jpg
 This?
 yep
 Restart needed
 oh sure 😂😂
 (Sticker, 512x512) https://irc.ubports.com/gPn9Nzrd/file_3669.webp
 ```$ sudo cp system-connections/ ~/Documents/ … [sudo] password for phablet:  … cp: omitting directory ‘system-connections/’```
[16:14] <tgBot3> drguell was added by: drguell
 Use -r
 Hi!
 Hi
 @petya230, or -a
 sudo cp -r system-connections/ ~/Documents/
 -a?
 Hm
 @petya230, thanks it worked
 all
 ohhh
 I see
 @dohbee, Thanks :D
 I copied the directory to the phone home, but I can't copy to the pc via adb neither via nautilus
 ```$ sudo adb pull Documents/system-connections ~/Scrivania/ … adb: error: failed to copy 'Documents/system-connections/iiss-greppi' to '/home/mike/Scrivania/system-connections/iiss-greppi': Permission denied```
 @drguell, Hi! I'm part of the Welcoming Team. Please take a look at https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome to get up to speed and feel free to ask any question, especially in the Newcomers Room!
 @Michele, Tory different cable
 Try
 but it worked for another file...
 me no more ideas, just the 😂PC restart
 😂 ok thanks anyway
 @KrisJacewicz I want to control the rp3 trought the Bluetooth of the phone. Writing commans as if I had an ssh connection, but without wifi. I'd like if you could give me some tutorial. Thanks.
 do Slimport VGA adapters work on Nexus 5? I guess not? I believe it doesn't on Nexus 7 2013
 @Cesar_Herrera, see here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36889 … however bt is not very fast. x forwarding almost certainly will be a bad experience.  I'll see your direction.
 @Cesar_Herrera, but your ut can be hotspot and raspi can connect to it. no need for hub/router
 you hv LAN between ut and raspi
 @KrisJacewicz, Even if I disconnect data?
 @Cesar_Herrera, yes 5hen u just hv LAN but without WAN/Internet
 good idea about the hotspot
 I'll say you later. Thanks.
 by turning hotspot on your ut it basically becomes your wireless router for your own LAN
 @Javacookies, I tried micro hdmi to vga adapter with m10 fhd on 15.04 and it didn't work
 @KrisJacewicz, You don't use bluetooth to forward the display. You use it to send short commands.
 "high speed" bt can also get a few Mbps by using wifi, which is why bt/wifi is always in the same module now
 Looking forward to testing out anbox on the OnePlus One... ::Impatiently waiting::
 Good when it leaves the anbox?
 @Ratattuile, When what leaves Anbox?
[18:45] <tgBot3> <Gleb Lee 🇸🇨> Hi. Is it possible to use ssh to connect to UTouch and browse files (via Nautilus, like ssh://username@servername.example.com/folder)?
[18:47] <tgBot3> <Gleb Lee 🇸🇨> It supposed to be better than adb - no wires, easy connection.
 Questions I've never seen regarding the web browser app. I think you've optimised much better than Canonical managed. The most striking thing is you can have dozens and dozens of tabs up.
 You can use the built-in terminal if you’d like, I don’t know if inbound SSH is supported
 @Gleb Lee 🇸🇨, if you enable the ssh gadget, yes. but the connection becomes a bit unreliable when the screen locks and the phone tries to suspend
 Canonical seemed to hard limit the recovery of those tabs to a max of 10. So, is there a theoretical maximum under Ubports? How does it affect performance in terms of RAM and CPU usage as you increase the number of tabs? Most of them aren't active as you use them
 @TartanSpartan, i don't think anything has changed there really
 @dohbee, In that case use the tweak tool in order to keep it open in the background. I don’t know which app you need to allow to keep active in the background though
 The tab limit, at least, has definitely been increased.
[18:53] <tgBot3> <Gleb Lee 🇸🇨> @stuiterveer, It is possible to enable any app/process work in background, like ssh agent, am I right? I just have not UT on phone now so can't check what is in Tweak Tool options.
 @Gleb Lee 🇸🇨, If I’m not mistaken you can select apps, but not specific processes. Your best bet is to try each app one by one (or enable them all for a nuclear option) and see if this makes the connection still work when on standby
 @dohbee, is this true? in my experience, ssh works fine even when the phone locks, actually x forwarding works fine as well..
 @Javacookies, well it was true for me. ssh would get a bit slow after a while
 tbf it's been literally like a whole year since i probably did this
[18:59] <tgBot3> <Gleb Lee 🇸🇨> Very interesting, thanks all! SSH is a good option to move files by air in order to compensate lack of KDE Connect tools.
 @Gleb Lee 🇸🇨, just copy your client's public key to your phones authorized_keys file and you are good to go and well enable ssh sudo android-gadget-service enable ssh
 @Gleb Lee 🇸🇨, yes u can use sshfs, see here: … https://kriscode.blogspot.tw/2017/12/ssh-and-ubuntu-touch.html?m=1#sshfs
 i barely exchange files any other way now than via nautilus. If my devixe is not connected via cable i use sshfs.
[19:22] <tgBot3> Pedro was added by: Pedro
 also ssh session does not get affected by screen lock on none of my devices. I think the acreen lock only affects gui apps and only in the staged mode.  … If you change mode to windowed the screen lock will not do anything.
 @malditobastardo, Are you from Spain?
 I wish this was also true when phone is in staged mode but connectes to power
 hi Pedro
 Miguel !!!
 Welcome Pedro! I'm part of the Welcoming Team. Please look at https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome to get up to speed and feel free to ask anything, especially in the Newcomers Room!
 Hello again
 I'm in the group again
 @Pedro, Ah, you're returning?
 Welcome back then!
 there's a spanish group of UBports, Do you know the name?
 @mimecar, @UBports_Es
 yes 😋
 Yes Peter - I uninstalled Telegram few months ago
 Thanks
 Beautiful - spanish group
 I'm going to there - we keep in touch
 Nice! We finally need to get the UBFR assistant bot finished to easily tell us new from returnning users etc. and makes sure we don't forget anyone... The dork responsible probably thinks other stuff is more important...
 @Pedro, While you're here, be sure to hoin @UBports_News!
 @KrisJacewicz, not the screen lock itself but the "phone tries to go to sleep" bit is what matters. screen lock is merely a visual indicator
 @KrisJacewicz, Also, windowed mode has no bearing on apps being paused when backgrounded. apps that get paused will get paused regardless of windowing mode
 @peternerlich, I'm joined - anyway I think I'll be here(english group) because is a good way todo improcedente the lenguage. I need It … 😉
 @Pedro, What the ... Good way to improve the lenguage ...
 I think you already improcedented the language.  Nice work!  I also improcedente English. It's such a broken language so anything helps
 @KrisJacewicz, Hi, something weird is happening to me opening your https://kriscode.blogspot.co.uk , it is switching to https://kriscode.blogspot.cz
 (Photo, 1280x800) https://irc.ubports.com/eTVdbMjZ/file_3673.jpg
 for me it changes to ...blogger.de, i think that's intentional.
 but I dont see anything else and cannot scrool nothing
 have you checked you script blogger?
 *your
 addblock
 I am sorry
 also maybe try uBlock instead of ABP, I claim it to be a little bit better :D
 I completely forgot it is there, thanks Christoph
 no problem, we're all humans. :)
 👍
 Hi, after OTA-3 "sudo apt-get install libunwind8" says "E: Unable to locate package libunwind8". Any ideas?
 @gefa67, in a chroot? libertine? what?
 It's a ssh session on nexus5
 https://puri.sm/posts/happy-new-year-purism-goals-for-2018/
 So they are releasing a tablet?
 "Produce great documentation for developers to write applications into PureOS"
 @malditobastardo, yes/no. it's the elusive "librem 11"
 documentation and lower prize would be nice
 @gefa67, you're trying to install something into the rootfs with apt?
 price is fine
 @dohbee, Yes
 well you need to run apt-get update before apt will find anything, but it's generally better to create a chroot and install things there instead of in rootfs
 Ok, will try it with chroot, I thought it works different in Ota2...
 where can I find the sms history on ut?
 (Photo, 540x960) https://irc.ubports.com/OIVIZORt/file_3675.jpg
 it should be under ~/.loca/sharel somewhere, i think "nuntium" or "history-service" perhaps
 thank you
 @dohbee, Is libertine the recommended one?
 @gefa67, Yes
 is someoneelse having vibrations issues with the n5? it just works random for me: when I tap a button, an icon in the header of an app it should vibrate but 19 times out of 20 it doesn't work. … I think it isn't an hardware problem because if I enable the vibration on the keyboard it works well...
 why ubuntu-sdk-ide and clickable can't be installed in the same time (if I install one, the other is removed... )?
 @vince1171, Probably a dependencies conflicts.
 @TronFortyTwo, ok I will see that twomorrow
 Hi, does the Xapp app in the open store mean that there's a new simpler libertine setup?
 @dohbee, Thanks, will try it...
 @tomrhodes, ap, or scope?
 good point it's the scope, was the liberty scope right?
 libertine even
 libertine scope yes
 it's just a launcher for apps installed in libertine containers
 ok I got excited about nothing then it's the scope we used to install through the old store then...
[22:48] <tgBot3> RavengamerSpace was added by: RavengamerSpace
 Hi @RavengamerSpace! I'm part of the Welcoming Team. Please read https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome to get up to speed and feel free to ask any question, especially in the Newcomers Room!


[14:07] <daker> hey mhall119 or cjohnston do you know if approved_date is set automatically or manually ?
[14:09] <cjohnston> auto
[14:10] <daker> where ? because i don't see that
[14:16] <daker> cjohnston: in lpupdate https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltp-devs/loco-team-portal/0.2/view/head:/loco_directory/teams/management/commands/lpupdate.py ?
[14:30] <cjohnston> probably
[14:31] <daker> mhall119: i just crashed LTP :) you will receive the traceback
[15:53] <cjohnston> crashed? wtf did you do?
[15:56] <nigelb> lol
[15:56] <nigelb> Achivement Unlocked.


[06:12] <williewill> awright!
[06:14] <williewill> so how is everyone tonight?
[06:15] <williewill> stuck trying to fix some bugs? hahahaha...
[06:15] <williewill> all 40 of us
[06:16] <williewill> ...my mouse doesnt work with enemy territory
[06:16] <williewill> i havent had to troubleshoot that in 10 years
[06:16] <williewill> now here i am
[06:17] <williewill> when i start et i get the screen but no mouse. keyboard works though
[06:17] <williewill> no sound either but thats next
[06:18] <williewill> i got it running though
[06:19] <williewill> i had to install all the 32 bit dependencies
[06:19] <williewill> on the beast
[06:19] <williewill> the BEAST baby
[06:19] <williewill> the new, and one and only
[06:19] <williewill> the AMD from the local hardware store!
[06:20] <williewill> its new
[06:20] <williewill> its improved
[06:20] <williewill> it segfaults when it load video drivers
[06:20] <williewill> its...
[06:21] <williewill> its what's for dinner.
[06:21] <williewill> its the other white meat
[06:21] <williewill> its the new black
[06:21] <williewill> its the quiet riot
[06:22] <williewill> its 8 cores of pure waiting sounds
[06:22] <williewill> am i the only one that thinks chips are trying to kill each other?
[08:40] <FManTropyx> I have at last installed Ubuntu Studio on an old HP business machine, but some issues exist
[19:11] <Disaster_Area> anyone here experienced at all with using Reaper in Ubuntu / Ubuntu Studio?
[21:47] <FManTropyx> do I have a program that plays mp3 files, ie. emulates WinAMP?
[22:24] <studio-user461>  quali programmi usare per torrent
[22:31] <FManTropyx> qBittorrent


[02:28] <pitti> 22:00 CEST
[02:29] <pitti> argh, ECHAN, sorry
[08:07] <titus`> hello
[08:07] <mdke> hi titus`
[08:09] <titus`> can I know what UTC time is it please ?
[08:09] <thom> 18:09
[08:10] <tseng|work> meeting is in ~2 hours
[08:10] <mdke> tech meeting
[08:11] <titus`> i'm waiting for the community council :)
[08:11] <mdke> titus`, thats in 4 hours
[08:11] <titus`> so 4 hours, thank you
[08:11] <mdke> titus`, for future use: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
[08:12] <titus`> ok, bookmarked
[08:13] <zul> titus` or you could open a terminal and go date --utc
[08:14] <titus`> better :)
[08:33] <Seveas> please, someone, put date -u in the topic :)
[08:33] <mdke> people asking won't read it
[08:33] <mdke> but we can try ;)
[08:47] <Burgundavia> did anybody email -users and -devel about the meeting being moved back 2 hrs?
[08:47] <dholbach> hm?
[08:47] <dholbach> first one will be a TB catch up meeting
[08:47] <Burgundavia> the CC meetin, was it not originally at 24h
[08:48] <dholbach> no 22 utc
[08:48] <Burgundavia> oh
[08:48] <dholbach> i directly edited the calendar
[08:48] <Burgundavia> that is odd
[08:48] <Burgundavia> when?
[08:48] <dholbach> after the last one :-)
[08:49] <Burgundavia> oh, ok, as long as it was not today
[08:49] <Burgundavia> my mind playing funny tricks
[08:52] <dholbach> wow
[08:53] <tseng|work> wow!
[08:54] <ogra> wow ?
[09:00] <mdke> just a regular day for you Burgundavia
[09:00] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:01] <opi> hi guys
[09:01] <opi> it's +1 to the meeting? or is that +3?
[09:01] <mdke> +1 to tech meeting
[09:01] <mdke> +3 to CC
[09:01] <mdke> /topic
[09:01] <opi> oh, thanks mdke :)
[09:01] <opi> mdke: yup I just rised my head from a pillow :)
[09:49] <zul> hey JaneW
[09:49] <JaneW> hi zul
[09:49] <tseng|work> hi zul, jane
[09:49] <zul> hey tseng|work
[09:49] <JaneW> hi tseng|work
[09:50] <\sh> good evening :)
[09:52] <lamont> evening JaneW
[09:52] <JaneW> lo \sh
[09:52] <dholbach> hellas mvo
[09:53] <mvo> hey dholbach
[09:53] <dholbach> hey JaneW, lamont, zul, tseng|work, \sh :-)
[09:53] <\sh> huhu dholbach :)
[09:53] <JaneW> \sh btw are you South African? (originally)
[09:54] <ogra> hehe
[09:54] <\sh> JaneW: no :)
[09:54] <ogra> lol
[09:54] <JaneW> \sh, I asked because of the bilton thing
[09:54] <ogra> JaneW, he'd love to
[09:54] <JaneW> ;)
[09:54] <JaneW> hey dholbach
[09:54] <\sh> JaneW: but my ex-wife comes from P.M.
[09:54] <zul> heh...i lived in africa for 8 years
[09:54] <JaneW> oic!
[09:55] <\sh> JaneW: and when I was visiting ZA I became addicted to biltong :) and chili cheese burgers from coconut grove@durban beach front :)
[09:55] <JaneW> \hehe
[09:55] <lamont> Kamion: you around?
[09:55] <JaneW> your name *could* be SA too
[09:55] <Treenaks> JaneW: that's because of all the German and Dutch influence
[09:55] <\sh> JaneW: yeah I know :) I saw also some german city names there :)
[09:55] <\sh> JaneW: where u coming from?
[09:56] <opi> OK, I'll spy on you gus because I have nothing better to do untill CC will start :-)
[09:56] <JaneW> \sh you mean like Heidelberg!? *LOL*
[09:56] <\sh> JaneW: right :)
[09:57] <dholbach> haha... heidelberg :-)
[09:57] <zul> hey jeff
[09:57] <jbailey> Heya Chuck
[09:57] <\sh> JaneW: btw...there is a guy from .fi he wants to get this biltong connection working too :)
[09:58] <\sh> dholbach: it was funny to see this city name on a highway in ZA...
[09:58] <doko> hi
[09:58] <ivoks> hi all
[09:58] <\sh> hey doko
[09:58] <dholbach> \sh: you thought you took the wrong crossing, hm? :-)
[09:58] <JaneW> dholbach: don't laugh we actually have 2 towns called Heidelberg in SA!
[09:59] <\sh> dholbach: hey...I was sitting in a car with 4 ZA indians on the way to joburg
[09:59] <dholbach> JaneW: i dont :-)
[09:59] <pitti> Moin
[09:59] <tseng|work> meeting time.
[09:59] <tseng|work> hi pitti!
[09:59] <mdz> 15 second by ntp.
[09:59] <JaneW> \sh: yes biltong is a good SA export, of course you'd get locked up trying to take any to a place like australia ;)
[10:00] <mdz> welcome, everyone
[10:00] <mdz> let's begin
[10:00] <\sh> dholbach: just in front of the city frontiers the locale police of joburg had a test of new recruiters...they were quite surprised, a paleface sitting with 4 indians in a car
[10:00] <mdz> Keybuk notified me that he may be ~10 minutes late
[10:00] <mdz> so we'll need to wait for him in order to process maintainer candidates
[10:00] <mdz> but if there is any other business, we can discuss it while we wait
[10:00] <\sh> JaneW: it's not even allowed here in germany :( but when you enter germany via terminal 2 from heathrow u have luck and no customs is controlling (if you're european)
[10:01] <Treenaks> mdz: Maintainer or MemberCandidates?
[10:01] <\sh> ok
[10:01] <mdz> Treenaks: both
[10:01] <pitti> mdz: can we hot-add postgresql to the agenda?
[10:01] <dholbach> Treenaks: members are in CC meeting
[10:01] <mdz> pitti: sure, what's the issue?
[10:01] <dholbach> ah ok
[10:01] <fabbione> mdz: and TB meeting time rotation please
[10:01] <pitti> mdz: the current breezy packages are still the "old" architecture, I'd like to put in the new architecture as in Debian experimental
[10:01] <JaneW> maybe mention that the CC meeting follows at 22:00 UTC?
[10:01] <Treenaks> dholbach: oh wait.. *wrong agenda*
[10:02] <pitti> mdz: I won't support the current packages for Sarge+1 anyway, so Breezy would be the first distro with 8.0 and the multicluster architecture
[10:02] <mdz> pitti: are you confident that the packages can be stabilized by featurefreeze?
[10:02] <doko> pitti: hold on! let's finish one of the three things we started ...
[10:02] <ogra> doko, why ? its more fun....
[10:02] <pitti> mdz: yes, I hack a lot of them during my free time and they have almost all of the features of the current packages
[10:02] <pitti> doko: ?
[10:02] <mdz> pitti: are there upgrade issues to consider?
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: there is a transition package to postgresql-7.4, and a pg_upgradecluster script to transition to 8.0
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: a mere dist-upgrade will settle everything for you
[10:03] <Treenaks> pitti: a working upgrade script?!
[10:03] <doko> pitti: how many packages have to be changed? let's wait one or two weeks until xorg and C++ ABI are in a usable state
[10:03] <mdz> pitti: so postgresql_7.4.5 will be superseded by postgresql_8.0?
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: actually by postgresql-7.4
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: -8.0 can be installed in parallel
[10:04] <mdz> doko: the question is whether we will do it for breezy
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: the biggest piece of work is the libpq3 -> libpq4 transition
[10:04] <mdz> pitti: ok, so a dist-upgrade does not upgrade you to 8.0
[10:04] <doko> ok
[10:04] <ogra> doko, i thought main was done already
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: no, the purpose of the new arch was to explicitly avoid database upgrades during package upgrades
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: that only led to trouble
[10:04] <ogra> doko, CXX that it...
[10:04] <mdz> pitti: and you do not mind supporting both 7.4 and 8.0 in a stable release?
[10:05] <pitti> mdz: since I will do it anyway for Sarge+1, and upstream is very nice, I don't mind
[10:05] <mdz> pitti: ok, I have no problem then
[10:05] <pitti> mdz: for bigger vendors like ISPs it is nice to be able to offer several versions and multiple clustes, so I'd like to keep 7.4 around
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: it would require to minimally-change ~20 packages for libpq4
[10:06] <fabbione> pitti: we need to talk about pgsql 8.0
[10:06] <fabbione> but at a later stage
[10:06] <astharot-> hi
[10:06] <doko> pitti: please don't start now, but in June first
[10:06] <pitti> doko: that's fine for me
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: the point is, the current packages are a PITA to maintain and a PITA for upgrading users
[10:06] <doko> pitti: thanks
[10:06] <mdz> ok, fabbione: meeting times?
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: I don't want to support it longer than necessary
[10:07] <fabbione> mdz: yes. we need to rotate the meeting time to get other people too
[10:07] <fabbione> mdz: it was proposed and approved but never really took place
[10:07] <pitti> doko: I'm not in a hurry, June will be more than fine
[10:08] <JaneW> I second that
[10:08] <mdz> fabbione: what do you suggest?
[10:08] <fabbione> mdz: mako suggested something like 20:00 UTC and 10:00 UTC?
[10:08] <fabbione> mdz: or something along that line
[10:08] <ogra> sounds good
[10:08] <JaneW> works for me
[10:08] <fabbione> mdz: my original suggestion was different
[10:08] <mdz> fabbione: it is necessary that I be awake during the meeting
[10:08] <pitti> ogra: yeah, nice for Europe
[10:08] <fabbione> but apparently nobody liked it
[10:08] <ogra> yep
[10:09] <mdz> 1000 UTC is 0300 for me
[10:09] <\sh> yes...directly in my lunch pause :)
[10:09] <fabbione> mdz: the point is whatever rotation we do, somebody needs to be awake
[10:09] <fabbione> mdz: and uk didn't like the original proposal
[10:09] <JaneW> how bad is 6:00UTC?
[10:09] <doko> it would be nice not to have a 20:00 UTC meeting in end of June
[10:09] <doko> JaneW, yes!
[10:09] <pitti> Hi Keybuk
[10:09] <Burgundavia> 11pm our time, JaneW
[10:09] <JaneW> are people in the states still up then?
[10:09] <mdz> Keybuk: we briefly discussed postgresql 8.0, and are now talking about meeting scheduling
[10:10] <mdz> Keybuk: (while waiting for you so that we can process maintainers)
[10:10] <Burgundavia> JaneW, by our, I mean mdz and myself
[10:10] <Keybuk> did you get my text?
[10:10] <mdz> JaneW: I'm often awake then, but it means the meeting will have to be strictly time-limited so that I get to sleep at a reasonable hour
[10:10] <mdz> Keybuk: yes
[10:10] <JaneW> Burgundavia: ok, and the Canadians etc too of course
[10:10] <\sh> siretat will join the meeting between 20:30 and 20:45 utc he has a schedule
[10:10] <mdz> Keybuk: you beat your estimate by 20 seconds
[10:11] <Keybuk> what meeting times are we considering?
[10:11] <Burgundavia> JaneW, that is terrible time for east coast people/brazial people
[10:11] <Keybuk> given this current time already seems to be impossible for sabdfl to make
[10:11] <JaneW> mdz: it;s 10:11pm now, and the CC meeting is 12am my time :P
[10:11] <mdz> Keybuk: fabbione proposed 1000 UTC, but that's firmly in sleep territory for me
[10:11] <fabbione> Keybuk: 06:00 UTC and 20:00 UTC
[10:11] <fabbione> in rotation
[10:11] <fabbione> so that we can alternate
[10:12] <Keybuk> 6 utc is too early for me to function properly (or indeed, make, usually)
[10:12] <mdz> JaneW: yes, but I have to be lucid for TB meetings :-)
[10:12] <doko> what about 18:00 UTC?
[10:12] <mdz> 1800 UTC is no problem for me
[10:12] <fabbione> well clearly in rotation somebody needs to sacrify a bit
[10:13] <JaneW> I could do 1800 UTC, but 1900 would be better
[10:13] <doko> is this ok for jbailey, or earlier? we did start with 16:00 UTC
[10:13] <fabbione> but that would give other continets the possibility to partecipate as well
[10:13] <mdz> basically 1700-0500 can be made to work for me
[10:13] <jbailey> doko: Yup.
[10:13] <Keybuk> fabbione: the problem with the TB meeting is that we've such as small Q, for even one of us to be unable to make it or insufficiently lucid, defaults the point
[10:13] <Keybuk> unlike the CC members, who are ten a penny :p
[10:13] <JaneW> ok, how many Australians are there?
[10:13] <pitti> mdz: well, 0500 is still almost night, but doable
[10:13] <jbailey> doko: Pretty much any night time that is good for Europe is going to be good for north america, and any morning that's good for mdz will be good for those of us east of him. =)
[10:13] <fabbione> Keybuk: well that's an issue that can be addressed expanding the TB
[10:14] <Seveas> Now here's an idea: let everybody write down his/her doable time and send it to JaneW, she can pick a time that's reasonable for all
[10:14] <ogra> JaneW, none
[10:14] <fabbione> Keybuk: as it is now we are cutting away a good portion of the community
[10:14] <JaneW> Seveas: good idea
[10:14] <fabbione> and i don't find it sensible at all
[10:14] <JaneW> howeveer I will have to make some 'executive decisions' I am sure ;)
[10:14] <mdz> Keybuk: huh?
[10:14] <pitti> we also have to consider people from e. g. Asia
[10:14] <mdz> last I checked the CC and TB had a similar number of members
[10:14] <Keybuk> I thought CC had 5 ?
[10:15] <opi> Seveas: I suggest same thing to Mako about CC ;)
[10:15] <JaneW> does sabdfl need/want to be at these meetings?
[10:15] <JaneW> if yes, what times is HE available?
[10:15] <pitti> JaneW: he has a vote, he should be
[10:15] <opi> JaneW: he's on CC from time to time
[10:15] <Seveas> sabdfl wants to be on CC generally afaik
[10:15] <mdz> Keybuk: 4
[10:15] <mdz> Keybuk: The Community Council is constituted as follows: Benjamin Hill, Mark Shuttleworth, Colin Watson, and James Troup
[10:16] <Keybuk> yeah, just read that :)  Somehow I thought lamont was on that too
[10:16] <Keybuk> so ignore me :p
[10:16] <mdz> JaneW: sabdfl and Keybuk are in the same time zone
[10:16] <mdz> physically anyway
[10:16] <JaneW> yes, which is similar to mine
[10:16] <lamont> Keybuk: I show up and give my opinion from time to time... but am on neither board
[10:16] <dholbach> i think we should pick some times that fit for the most, make the time frame a BIT bigger, so it will hurt a BIT, and then start rotating
[10:17] <mdz> I can give a 12-hour window, 1700-0500 UTC for the start of a meeting
[10:17] <JaneW> can we try 6:00 and 20:00 and see how that goes?
[10:17] <Keybuk> for me, 1000-2359UTC
[10:18] <\sh> i don't mind the times....when I know when the meeting starts i'm there...even during work hours or dream hours
[10:18] <Keybuk> or I may mean 0900-2300UTC, I'm not sure which way the math works :p
[10:18] <Kamion> (sorry for lateness, etc.)
[10:18] <JaneW> thanks \sh :)
[10:18] <mdz> JaneW: we can try 0600 next tiime, yes
[10:18] <dholbach> \sh: same for me
[10:18] <pitti> works for Europe
[10:18] <fabbione> yeps
[10:18] <JaneW> mdz if it's poorly attended or doesn;t work for you etc, we can strap the idea?
[10:18] <mdz> JaneW: for me, anyway
[10:18] <mdz> JaneW: I think it's worse for Keybuk
[10:18] <mdz> and sabdfl
[10:18] <Keybuk> yeah, I almost certainly won't make a 0600UTC meeting
[10:18] <Keybuk> not entirely sure Mark will eitehr
[10:19] <fabbione> but that would be like once every second week
[10:19] <JaneW> it's 7am then isn;t it?
[10:19] <ogra> yeps
[10:19] <pitti> JaneW: yes, and 8 in summer
[10:19] <dholbach> and if we rotated the time ever two weeks?
[10:19] <JaneW> so, what;s the problem?
[10:19] <Kamion> pitti: for the UK it's 6am in winter and 7am in summer
[10:19] <mdz> there is more than one problem
[10:19] <Keybuk> JaneW: 7am UK in summer, 6am in winter
[10:19] <seb128> pitti: there is one hour difference between you and uk
[10:19] <mdz> sabdfl often can't make these meetings, regardless of the timing
[10:20] <mdz> Keybuk and I are 8 hours apart, so we're fairly restricted there already
[10:20] <Kamion> I start after we've got the kid to school, which is 9am
[10:20] <opi> JaneW: me too, but I have to get to the office so it's another ~0.5h
[10:20] <JaneW> Kamion: that's why 15:00 - 18:00 UTC is not ideal for me (kids)
[10:21] <pitti> I think the idea with the disc-shaped Earth a few centuries back was not at all that bad...
[10:21] <mdz> if we don't have sabdfl, then we need to accomodate both Keybuk and myself with regard to times
[10:21] <JaneW> ok mdz, it;s obvious you just have to move ;)
[10:21] <opi> pitti: unless you're not a sailor ;)
[10:21] <Kamion> of course, as far as the TB goes, quoracy is more important, so it doesn't matter *too* much if (say) I can't make every meeting, but somebody should ask sabdfl
[10:21] <opi> pitti: s/not//
[10:21] <mdz> JaneW: then people will just complain that we're scheduling against the US
[10:21] <ogra> pitti, oh, that changed ?
[10:22] <mdz> and excluding that bit of the community
[10:22] <mdz> if you guys want to try the next meeting without me, that's fine
[10:22] <mdz> but if only one member of the board can attend, not much will get done
[10:22] <Keybuk> we tried that last week ;)
[10:22] <JaneW> er no, we tried that last week...
[10:22] <mdz> right
[10:22] <JaneW> that's why we are back now ;)
[10:23] <pitti> mdz: can we do the idea of the "every CC member states his available times and we take the intersection"?
[10:23] <ogra> pitti, its TB here
[10:23] <doko> pitti: empty set ;-)
[10:23] <mdz> pitti: that's how we got the current time
[10:23] <JaneW> speaking of which, now that Kamion is here should we go back to point 1, since this argument will probably never be concluded...
[10:23] <mdz> pitti: the complaint is that while the board members can attend, many community members can't
[10:24] <fabbione> somehow there are 2 problems
[10:24] <mdz> JaneW: eh?
[10:24] <pitti> mdz: right, I know, but without board membery community folks can't be approved anyway
[10:24] <fabbione> 1) time rotation
[10:24] <dholbach> i think most guys will "prepare" themselves, if they know a date and time (whenever it is)
[10:24] <fabbione> 2) TB is too small to cover 24hour community
[10:24] <fabbione> both of them needs to be addressed imho
[10:24] <Nafallo> fabbione: ++
[10:24] <JaneW> er were we waiting on kamion for a maintainer candidate?
[10:25] <pitti> idea: every meeting is 6 hours later than the previous one
[10:25] <JaneW> maybe I missed something
[10:25] <Kamion> JaneW: I'm not a TB member; I don't get a vote there
[10:25] <mdz> a larger TB is not a good solution to a scheduling problem
[10:25] <fabbione> pitti: that was what mako and I proposed for the CC
[10:25] <mdz> JaneW: we were waiting on Keybuk
[10:25] <pitti> then all folks should be able to attend at least 2/4 in a month
[10:25] <fabbione> pitti: it didn't work
[10:25] <\sh> question i have: do we need a TB meeting every 2nd week?
[10:25] <pitti> fabbione: ok :-(
[10:25] <ogra> JaneW, for maintainer candidates we're waiting for siretart
[10:25] <mdz> \sh: yes
[10:25] <dholbach> \sh: yes, i think so
[10:25] <Kamion> I think it's far more important that general community members be able to attend CC meetings than TB meetings
[10:25] <Keybuk> I think both mdz and I ignored the last attempt at rotation in the hope it'd go away :p
[10:25] <Seveas> \sh, see the calendar
[10:25] <mdz> pitti: there are only 2 per month
[10:25] <fabbione> pitti: mainly because nobody can deal with 1 bad wake up over 4 :(
[10:26] <fabbione> 4 meetings...
[10:26] <fabbione> (2 months)
[10:26] <\sh> mdz: ok for really technical stuff ok..but what about the community tb stuff? this should go every 4 weeks, and when the wanna be TB members wants to be in, they have only one appointment
[10:26] <Kamion> \sh: by the time people are coming up for maintainership approval, their contributions ought to be obvious even in absentia
[10:26] <dholbach> fabbione has  a point - i think it's not that bad
[10:26] <mdz> \sh: technical stuff -> TB, community stuff -> CC
[10:27] <Kamion> \sh: if they aren't, they shouldn't be approved yet (he says making a wild generalisation)
[10:27] <\sh> mdz: I was thinking about upload possibility for members
[10:27] <mdz> Kamion: for discussion, it's useful for the persons involved in a project/idea to be present
[10:27] <mdz> Kamion: sometimes a proxy works, but often not
[10:27] <siretart> re
[10:27] <\sh> mdz: CC is something else
[10:27] <ogra> mdz, i think \sh meant MOTU approvals
[10:27] <siretart> hi folks, just arrived :)
[10:27] <\sh> ogra: right
[10:27] <ogra> siretart, heya
[10:27] <mdz> \sh: that means waiting a full month just to get an answer for a candidate, and that is too long
[10:27] <\sh> mdz: but then we can come to a conclusion for the times :)
[10:28] <mdz> \sh: I don't see how it helps
[10:28] <mdz> we have exactly the same scheduling problem, only less frequently
[10:28] <\sh> mdz: if there is only one meeting once a month for approval and that is, lets say, 6am UTC, so the people are there, because this is the only date for it..
[10:29] <JaneW> hi siretart
[10:29] <dholbach> what about fabbione's point? who can't cope with one "bad wake up" in 4 meetings? this, to me, seems to be the only solution to this
[10:29] <Kamion> \sh: if you can make totally arbitrary times, you're a lucky man. Not everyone can.
[10:29] <siretart> hi JaneW, hello ogra
[10:29] <mdz> dholbach: I don't see how that solves the problem
[10:30] <mdz> dholbach: 4 meetings = 2 months
[10:30] <lamont> mdz: it shares the pain
[10:30] <fabbione> mdz: as lamont said
[10:30] <dholbach> yes, if we rotated times properly
[10:30] <JaneW> and allows various timezones/continents to get involved, even if they only join in once every 2 months
[10:30] <Keybuk> dholbach: clearly some people can't cope with one "bad wake up" for the sole time they need TB for something ... otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion
[10:30] <fabbione> mdz: basically of 4 meetings you get 2 of them during working hours, 1 a bit late in the eveining and only one as bad wake up
[10:30] <mdz> consider that you're applying for maintainership
[10:30] <lamont> mdz: and basically means that you can count on being totally useless for one day every 2 months. :)
[10:31] <\sh> Kamion: well, when I have a schedule I can try to attend, if not, I can't
[10:31] <surak> lamont: that's almost a booze - only missing beer
[10:31] <JaneW> lamont: aren't you usually? *duck*
[10:31] <lamont> JaneW: nearly always, dear. :-)
[10:31] <Kamion> \sh: even if people know in advance that really doesn't guarantee that other real life commitments that are more important than a volunteer project won't step in
[10:31] <mdz> the problem more or less goes away if we can get quorum all the time
[10:32] <lamont> Kamion++
[10:32] <mdz> I'll talk to sabdfl about what we can do about that
[10:32] <JaneW> ok.
[10:32] <mdz> Kamion: yeah, having one window every 2 months means that it's very inconvenient if you miss it
[10:32] <mdz> we've spent too much time on it; let's take this discussion to the ubuntu-devel list
[10:32] <mdz> especially since the point is that not everyone can be present at the meeting ;-)
[10:32] <JaneW> heh
[10:32] <mdz> on to maintainer candidates
[10:33] <mdz> do we actually need to look at MaintainerCandidates, or only the folks who are on the agenda proper?
[10:33] <mdz> MC is huge
[10:33] <ogra> just take the agenda
[10:33] <Keybuk> Kamion wanted us to look at MC itself
[10:33] <Keybuk> unless I misinterpreted?
[10:33] <Nafallo> ogra: ++
[10:33] <Kamion> erm
[10:33] <Kamion> I wanted people not to be left out in the cold for a full month
[10:33] <mdz> Saravanan Raju, here?
[10:33] <ogra> could we first do the ppl on the agenda, i know some have to leave
[10:33] <Kamion> up to you how you prioritise it :)
[10:33] <mdz> John Levin, here?
[10:33] <mdz> Martin Krafft, here?
[10:34] <mdz> Darren Critchley, here?
[10:34] <mdz> David Walker, here?
[10:34] <ogra> mdz, most of them arent even members yet
[10:34] <mdz> Marco Bonetti, here?
[10:34] <mdz> Luke Yelavich, here?
[10:34] <mdz> Diego Andrs Asenjo, here?
[10:34] <mdz> moquist: here?
[10:34] <mdz> Amaya Rodrigo, here?
[10:34] <ogra> moquist isnt a maintainer ??
[10:34] <mdz> Monty Taylor, here?
[10:35] <astharot-> Gerardo Di Giacomo here
[10:35] <mdz> David Mandelberg, here?
[10:35] <mdz> astharot-: I am processing the list in order, please wait a moment
[10:35] <mdz> Brian Sutherland, here?
[10:35] <astharot-> sorry :P
[10:35] <fabbione> doh.. Amaya did apply as maintainer? :)
[10:35] <mdz> JorgeOCastro, here?
[10:35] <mdz> Imre Kaloz, here?
[10:35] <jbailey> fabbione: Before I did, IIRC. =)
[10:35] <dholbach> fabbione: ages ago
[10:35] <mdz> MatthewParslow, here?
[10:36] <ogra> fabbione, i think only as member, there was no distinction at this time
[10:36] <mdz> fabbione: yes, though I don't think she has ever attended a meeting to be considered officially
[10:36] <mdz> MarioCarrion, here?
[10:36] <mdz> GoedsonPaixao, here?
[10:36] <dholbach> i will make another section on the Maintainer Candidates page and move all of those that need to show up again
[10:36] <mdz> BjrnOveGrtan, here?
[10:36] <mdz> Javier Carranza, here?
[10:36] <mdz> dholbach: thanks
[10:36] <mdz> Zac Brown, here?
[10:36] <mdz> George Farris, here?
[10:36] <mdz> Arnaud Vandyck, here?
[10:37] <mdz>  Stephen Shirley, here?
[10:37] <tseng|work> could they just speak up if they are here and on the list?
[10:37] <mdz> tseng|work: not all at once
[10:37] <Kamion> tseng|work: we're nearly at the end anyway
[10:37] <mdz> FrodeDoeving, here?
[10:37] <mdz>  Gabriel Puliatti, here?
[10:37] <mdz> \sh: you're here
[10:37] <\sh> Stephan Hermann is here
[10:37] <mdz> that's not a very good hit rate
[10:38] <pitti> it's an extra meeting and it wasn't announced on the wiki page
[10:38] <\sh> siretat is also on the list (agenda)
[10:38] <mdz> dholbach, ogra: can either of you speak on behalf of \sh?
[10:38] <JaneW> actually it was on the wikipage
[10:38] <mdz> \sh: we'll continue with the agenda in order
[10:38] <\sh> mdz: ah ok
[10:38] <ogra> to late :(
[10:38] <JaneW> and 2 e-mails were sent to the Ubuntu-devel list
[10:38] <JaneW> granted the second was like 10 mins before the meeting started
[10:39] <mdke> i was surprised by the meeting, the wiki page says 31st
[10:39] <JohnDong> hi, everyone :)
[10:39] <mdz> JohnDong: the tech board meeting is in progress
[10:39] <JohnDong> sorry
[10:40] <mdz> ogra,dholbach: \sh?
[10:40] <ogra> mdz, ok, \sh has done a handfull of packages on the review pages, the quality is ok and he has done a good amount for the CXX transition, i'd like to see him as a MOTU
[10:40] <dholbach> mdz: i can vouch for him as well
[10:40] <Keybuk> \sh++
[10:40] <mdz> agreed
[10:40] <ogra> yay
[10:41] <dholbach> \sh: welcome in the MOTU world :-))
[10:41] <ogra> \sh, welcome in MOTU :)
[10:41] <mdz> \sh: do you know how to proceed?
[10:41] <\sh> mdz: yeah
[10:41] <JaneW> to confirm the meeting was in the calendar, but the agenda date was not updated (sorry)
[10:41] <mdz> ok, great
[10:41] <\sh> thx to everyone :)
[10:41] <mdz> \sh: congratulations
[10:41] <JaneW> welcome \sh
[10:41] <\sh> it's really an honour to work with u all :) a great community and a great team :)
[10:41] <mdke> nice one
[10:41] <mdz> Jeff Buchbinder here?
[10:41] <Nafallo> \sh: congrats :-)
[10:41] <mdz> JeanRemyFalleri here?
[10:42] <jdodson> JonDodson here.  fwiw.
[10:42] <mdz> ok, that's it for MaintainerCandidates
[10:42] <doko> who is ivoks?
[10:42] <ivoks> me
[10:42] <\sh> siretat is on the list :)
[10:42] <mdz> jdodson: I don't see you on the agenda or the candidates list
[10:42] <ogra> lol
[10:42] <ogra> ivoks, you name ?
[10:42] <mdke> jdodson, wrong meeting i think
[10:42] <ogra> your even
[10:42] <ivoks> Ante Karamatic
[10:42] <dholbach> jdodson: you're on the community council list, right?
[10:42] <pitti> mdz: astharot should be MaintainerCandidate
[10:42] <doko> ogra: he's not on the list?
[10:42] <mdz> gah, the page was rearranged while I was reading it :-)
[10:42] <\sh> hehe :)
[10:42] <ogra> doko, who ?
[10:42] <dholbach> mdz: excusez-moi
[10:43] <mdz> so siretart and astharot remain
[10:43] <seb128> dholbach: nice :)
[10:43] <mdz> (followed by those on the agenda)
[10:43] <jdodson> mdz, dholbach: no.  just here:)
[10:43] <siretart> ah. :)
[10:43] <mdz> ogra,dholbach: can you speak for siretart?
[10:43] <ogra> he s 50% of the games team
[10:44] <dholbach> siretart did a lot of work for 3 months in the MOTU world now
[10:44] <ogra> and did a goood bunch of work for us already
[10:44] <dholbach> he worked with us in the hoary-release roundup and i'm VERY happy with him
[10:44] <mdz> can you vouch for the quality of his work, such that he should be able to upload packages without review?
[10:44] <ogra> me to
[10:44] <ogra> yep
[10:44] <dholbach> absolutely
[10:45] <mdz> ok, that's sufficient for me to approve for universe upload status
[10:45] <mdz> Keybuk: siretart?
[10:45] <Keybuk> yup, good for me
[10:45] <ogra> yay, welcome, siretart
[10:45] <siretart> thank you all!
[10:45] <dholbach> siretart: it's great to have you with us... finally :-)
[10:45] <mdz> siretart: congratulations
[10:46] <ogra> siretart, you got the lead of the MOTUGames team now ;)
[10:46] <siretart> YEAH! :)
[10:46] <mdz> astharot is next
[10:46] <astharot> here !
[10:46] <dholbach> pitti's right hand :-)
[10:46] <\sh> siretart: congrats :)
[10:46] <mdz> pitti: you have worked with him probably the most
[10:46] <astharot> eheh
[10:46] <pitti> mdz: I vouch for him, he does an awesome job
[10:46] <Nafallo> Simira: congrats :-)
[10:46] <Keybuk> that's plenty good enough for me, then
[10:46] <pitti> mdz: he does universe security updates at an awesome pace
[10:46] <Nafallo> oops
[10:46] <Seveas> astharot, just needs to remember to *attach* patches :)
[10:46] <astharot> eheh it's true! :)
[10:46] <mdz> astharot: have you been working with the MOTU team as well as pitti?
[10:47] <pitti> Seveas: indeed :-), but me as well
[10:47] <astharot> mdz: I worked with pitti mainly
[10:47] <mdz> astharot: you should definitely join #ubuntu-motu, etc. if you are not already there
[10:47] <mdz> it will be important to work closely with that team
[10:47] <astharot> mdz: I do
[10:47] <astharot> ok, I didn't know
[10:47] <mdz> astharot: ogra and dholbach can guide you
[10:47] <ogra> astharot, and probably take part in the MOTUSecurity team (if not lead it)
[10:47] <mdz> ok, approved
[10:48] <mdz> astharot: congratulations
[10:48] <astharot> thanks :)
[10:48] <dholbach> WOW :-)
[10:48] <pitti> As long as we keep the policy that another member of the (uiniverse) security team approves patches, he should be able to upload
[10:48] <mdke> complimenti :)
[10:48] <pitti> astharot: congrats! I'm so glad to see you in :-)
[10:48] <astharot> eheh I'm glad too
[10:48] <astharot> thank you!
[10:48] <mdz> pitti: yes, we'll handle -security/universe differently from universe in the development branches
[10:48] <Nafallo> astharot: congrats :-)
[10:49] <mdz> next agenda item is to consider dholbach for upload to main
[10:49] <mdz> Keybuk: ?
[10:49] <ogra> *REMINDER* all approved MOTUS, please put yourself on the MOTU page in the wiki *REMINDER*
[10:49] <pitti> mdz: oh, astharot mainly fixes stable releases, for the development release we can mostly sync from Debian (I track that)
[10:49] <dholbach> ogra: i was just about to do it
[10:49] <Keybuk> I think he might be good enough to go without the training wheels now ;)
[10:49] <ogra> dholbach, let the guys do some work too ;) delegating is magic ;)
[10:49] <dholbach> haha... training wheels :-)
[10:49] <seb128> arf, daniel is going to break GNOME :)
[10:50] <pitti> seb128: even worse than you do? *duck*
[10:50] <ogra> seb128, we're sure you'll fix it afterwards ;)
[10:50] <seb128> somebody to blame for new gtk bogs :)
[10:50] <doko> seb128: is there anything he didn't break? ;-)
[10:50] <ogra> hehe
[10:50] <mdz> if seb128 won't have a heart attack, I'm happy for dholbach to upload to main ;-)
[10:50] <seb128> pitti: right, that's a challenge :)
[10:50] <pitti> seb128: SCNR, you're great, you know that :-)
[10:50] <seb128> ah ah
[10:50] <pitti> mdz++
[10:51] <fabbione> meh
[10:51] <fabbione> thumbs
[10:51] <mdz> so, approved
[10:51] <dholbach> merci beaucoup
[10:51] <fabbione> well you get it
[10:51] <mdz> dholbach: congratulations
[10:51] <Keybuk> dholbach: congrats, someone'll get you a red cap and a speedo ;)
[10:51] <mdke> dholbach, :)
[10:51] <seb128> dholbach: welcome dude :)
[10:51] <ogra> Keybuk, with propeller ?
[10:51] <mdz> everyone else on the agenda was already processed
[10:51] <seb128> dholbach: don't break everything as a welcome :p
[10:51] <dholbach> Keybuk: you're too kind :-)
[10:51] <mdz> except tseng who had to leave unfortunately
[10:51] <Nafallo> dholbach: :-D congratulations!
[10:51] <\sh> dholbach: congrats
[10:51] <mdz> I'll send him an email about rescheduling
[10:51] <ogra> mdz, which is very sad, since it holds up the move of mono to main
[10:51] <Keybuk> mdz: we could process him in absence?
[10:52] <ogra> Keybuk+++
[10:52] <mdz> Keybuk: hmm, I don't see why not
[10:52] <mdz> does anyone have anything to say?
[10:52] <Keybuk> certainly I've been relying on his packages for a while now, and he's impressed me, so I'd have no worries doing that
[10:52] <thom> thumbs up from me to tseng -> main
[10:53] <ogra> mdz, i worked on the mono packages a lot, they are a real mess if they come from debian.... tseng did such an awesome job, that upstream wants to work with him
[10:53] <ogra> (upstream == novell)
[10:53] <mdz> excellent
[10:53] <mdz> I think tseng would do fine in main
[10:53] <ogra> so an absolute thimbs up from me
[10:53] <JaneW> cool, so all on the agenda are approved?
[10:53] <ogra> JaneW, yeah
[10:53] <mdz> JaneW: so it would seem
[10:54] <JaneW> I'll send out a note in summary
[10:54] <JaneW> to the devel list?
[10:54] <mdz> tseng: congratulations in abstentia
[10:54] <mdz> JaneW: include it with the meeting summary?
[10:54] <mdz> I suppose it's worth a separate announcement
[10:54] <Keybuk> someone should probably mail Brandon personally to inform him :p
[10:55] <ogra> Keybuk, i'll do
[10:55] <mdz> any other business?
[10:55] <ogra> Keybuk, but he'll be here again in about 30min anyway
[10:56] <Keybuk> while we've got time, do we want to broach the idea of adding another member to the TB (I guess all we could do is recommend to Mark) ?  or are we happy as it is?
[10:56] <doko> yes, please let's announce "major" changes for the archives before packages are uploaded ...
[10:56] <opi> mdz: it's not quite related to the TC, but I have a question about MOTU-ML
[10:56] <JaneW> mdz: ok I'll include in the summary, AND it can be a separte announcement as well. Anyone want to do the separte one, or shall I?
[10:56] <ogra> opi, there is none yet
[10:56] <opi> mdz: will all MOTU subsection (MOTU-Games) have separated ML
[10:57] <ogra> opi, and we are not enough motus yet to have a MOTU ml
[10:57] <opi> ogra: I know, I'm watchin http://lists.ubuntu.com on daily bassis
[10:57] <mdz> Keybuk: right, "Appointments to the board are made by Mark Shuttleworth subject to confirmation by a vote amongst the maintainers."
[10:57] <dholbach> opi: the consensus, unfortunately, is there will be no motu mailing lists yet
[10:57] <opi> OK, noted
[10:57] <ogra> opi, if we are more then 50 we can probably think about it
[10:57] <mdz> Keybuk: so let's take that elsewhere, since he's not here
[10:57] <doko> we need to have a bit more organization on on major changes in the archives, although more than one change in parallel is probably not avoidable
[10:57] <mdz> doko: are you referring to xorg vs. g++-4.0?
[10:58] <opi> I need to get membership, and then I'll find someone who will help me improve my package-foo, that would be 50-1 :)
[10:58] <ogra> doko, have a proposal ?
[10:58] <doko> mdz: yes, and dpkg
[10:58] <dholbach> opi: join #ubuntu-motu - we'll help you get there :-)
[10:58] <opi> dholbach: after I'll attend CC :)
[10:58] <doko> the proposal is simple: announce, what you plan, avoid doing things in parallel
[10:59] <Kamion> FWIW I don't think we could have done either xorg or g++-4.0 significantly later; they were both "early breakage" items, and both took (are taking) a significant amount of time
[10:59] <seb128> what the issue with // changeS?
[10:59] <seb128> changes even
[10:59] <seb128> the sooner the better for such changes
[10:59] <seb128> and that doesn't make a big difference
[10:59] <Keybuk> this basically comes to "have a spec before major changes" ?
[11:00] <ogra> which we already have ....
[11:00] <doko> Keybuk: it may be informal, but people should know about it. Looking at all our specs, they are not very detailed
[11:00] <mdz> doko: what were the problems which were caused by it?
[11:01] <mdz> we fully intended to break major things at the same time during this cycle
[11:01] <mdz> perhaps there are other ways to address the problems, rather than breaking only one thing at a time
[11:02] <doko> mdz: the ABI transtionplan was to avoid a freeze, so we decided to finish the libs first
[11:02] <mdz> we have a limited amount of time available to break things before we must start stabilization
[11:02] <doko> mdz: I don't deny it, but there has to be time to announce things
[11:02] <Seveas> ahh, so that's why dholbach is approved for main: fast breakage
[11:02] <Seveas> :)
[11:02] <ogra> yeah
[11:02] <mdz> doko: what do you propose?
[11:03] <dholbach> do i have a THAT bad reputation already?
[11:03] <Keybuk> dholbach: second only to seb128 :p
[11:03] <seb128> :)
[11:03] <Keybuk> so at least you're in good company
[11:03] <doko> mdz: please scroll back: announce major changes, before you upload
[11:03] <ogra> doko, isnt it to late anyway ? we are in the middle of the transition now....
[11:03] <mdz> doko: how far in advance?
[11:04] <mdz> ogra: yes, but we can discuss what to do in the future
[11:04] <ogra> ok
[11:04] <doko> major changes are planned for a longer time, so one 3 or 4 work days should be fine.
[11:04] <JaneW> mdz: I just became aware of the HoaryRelease schedule page on the main wiki today, we can make a similar one for Breezy addressing many of these questions and dates.
[11:05] <doko> leaving room for coordination between us
[11:05] <mdz> JaneW: I created one just before the meeting ;-)
[11:05] <lamont> there are advantages to breaking only one thing at a time... as it sits, most of the failures are obviously one of the 3 reasons, but some of them are less obvious'
[11:05] <mdz> lamont: but we can't do 3 2-week transitions serially; we lose too much time
[11:05] <mdz> I see no problem with requiring advance notice
[11:05] <mdz> so that at least everyone is aware that there could be multiple reasons for the breakage
[11:06] <Keybuk> yeah, an advance e-mail to u-d would at least give people a heads-up that apt might not be their friend this week
[11:06] <lamont> mdz: true.  the fact that most of the failures are obvious which camp they belong to just means that we are "working in a target rich environment"
[11:07] <dholbach> Keybuk: and it will be easier for MOTU to set up transition lists
[11:07] <mdz> I would prefer to fix a number of days rather than deal in "working days"
[11:07] <ogra> dholbach, i thought we go to RT, then it'll be easy anyway
[11:07] <JaneW> mdz: you are good!
[11:07] <mdz> so something like 4 days advance notice
[11:07] <doko> mdz: we do have a nice section in our spec template "packages affected", this section should be detailed in the announcement
[11:07] <mdz> JaneW: I have a time travel device
[11:07] <dholbach> ogra: that's one of the point i missed quite often: a new upload of a library and the MOTU have to figure out themselves what's to fix
[11:07] <doko> mdz: yes, that looks fine
[11:08] <ogra> dholbach, ah, yes, thats true
[11:08] <mdz> unfortunately, I don't think we have a place to document such conventions
[11:08] <mdz> do we/
[11:08] <mdz> ?
[11:08] <dholbach> ogra: like X, like ogg/flac stuff, like ...
[11:08] <ogra> yep
[11:08] <doko> mdz: I'll write a wiki page
[11:09] <mdz> doko: ok, I think we have an index of maintainer documentation somewhere
[11:09] <mdz> doko: so maybe link to a HandlingTransitions or such
[11:09] <mdz> there is certainly more that we can say about transitions there as well
[11:09] <doko> ok
[11:09] <mdz> any other business before we close?  we're over time
[11:09] <ogra> yeah, please no more transitions with wiki lists....the editing takes me more time then the package fix
[11:10] <mdz> ok, meeting adjourned
[11:10] <mdz> thanks, everyone
[11:10] <ivoks> clap clap
[11:10] <fabbione> danke
[11:10] <dholbach> thanks mdz
[11:10] <mdke> ogra, maybe you can consider access controlling the pages?
[11:10] <mdz> and welcome to all the new maintainers!
[11:10] <dholbach> ogra: wiki lists are better than NO lists
[11:10] <ogra> mdz, oh, do i need approval for mono to main ?
[11:10] <fabbione> :)
[11:10] <surak> tkz
[11:10] <lamont> dholbach: flat file lists work too, and have less editing pain
[11:10] <ogra> dholbach, sure, but its a real PITA
[11:10] <mdz> ogra: if pitti already reviewed it, then no
[11:10] <ogra> great
[11:10] <ogra> :-D
[11:11] <mdke> ogra, something like, maintainers can edit the pages, normal users not?
[11:11] <ogra> mdke, its not that someone edits it....
[11:11] <mdke> oh i c
[11:11] <mdke> gotcha
[11:11] <ogra> mdke, its the length of the lists and the lack of searching in test input boxes in ff
[11:11] <ogra> text even
[11:12] <sladen> 3
[11:12] <ogra> sladen, ?
[11:13] <sladen> ogra: typo
[11:13] <ogra> sladen, hi then :)
[11:14] <zul> fabbione: fine with me :)
[11:14] <fabbione> zul: ?
[11:14] <fabbione> ah the kernel..
[11:14] <fabbione> ehhe
[11:28] <opi> well, it's almost the time :-)
[11:29] <opi> oh, 0.5h
[11:29] <Seveas> CC is in 30 minutes :)
[11:30] <kassetra> whew!  When I first logged in, I thought I was late!
[11:30] <dholbach> mdke: merci beaucoup
[11:30] <mdke> oooh cookies
[11:30] <mdke> hi kassetra
[11:31] <ivoks> i have strawberies... anyone? :)
[11:31] <kassetra> Hi!  :)
[11:31] <opi> ivoks: can you fax some? ;)
[11:31] <dholbach> ivoks: hmmmmmm :-)
[11:31] <mdke> ivoks, nice one
[11:31] <opi> ivoks: I'll pick up them tom. at office ;)
[11:31] <HiddenWolf> opi, that'd be called coffee :P
[11:31] <kassetra> opi: that tends to cause a fax jam.  ;)
[11:31] <mdke> *grins*
[11:31] <anto9us> *groan*
[11:31] <mdke> painful but strangely amusing
[11:31] <Seveas> rofl kassetra
[11:31] <opi> HiddenWolf: I don't know why I'm allways messing around this word
[11:32] <opi> HiddenWolf: maybe I just like it *too* much? :)
[11:32] <opi> or, I lack of it when I'm mentioning it
[11:32] <ivoks> :)
[11:32] <HiddenWolf> opi, probably, you french?
[11:32] <opi> HiddenWolf: Poland
[11:32] <HiddenWolf> opi, ah, ok
[11:33] <opi> HiddenWolf: we call it ,,kawa''
[11:33] <opi> HiddenWolf: where's w sounds like f
[11:33] <ivoks> opi: lol
[11:33] <ivoks> opi: we call it kava
[11:33] <ivoks> :)
[11:33] <opi> :)
[11:33] <HiddenWolf> opi, no suprize there :)
[11:33] <opi> ivoks: well, you're balkan, no? :)
[11:33] <ivoks> but we say w as v
[11:33] <ivoks> some say as f
[11:34] <opi> can't we just call it tasteful-brown-wather? :)
[11:34] <ivoks> opi: balkan is difficult term, but yes :)
[11:34] <Seveas> tasteful brown water would be hot choco :)
[11:35] <ivoks> opi: polska?
[11:35] <surak> seveas++
[11:35] <opi> ivoks: yup ;)
[11:35] <opi> Seveas: that would be a sticky-tasteful-brown-wather
[11:35] <surak> when I was a child, I used to say coffe is the dirt water from hell - it kept me awake for days!
[11:36] <ivoks> opi: so, today we fight for member status? :)
[11:36] <opi> surak: you where right at this :p
[11:36] <opi> ivoks: it's not like a fight ;)
[11:36] <opi> ivoks: you have some chances when you fight
[11:36] <Seveas> lol
[11:36] <ivoks> :)
[11:36] <kassetra> heh.
[11:36] <opi> ivoks: we're going to be reviewed by Council Of Evilness :)
[11:36] <ivoks> opi: well, that's fight
[11:37] <ivoks> you have to stand up for your self
[11:37] <ivoks> :)
[11:37] <surak> CE: give us some coffe, and we will worship you :-)
[11:37] <Seveas> who of you is pllying for membership (/me is)
[11:37] <Seveas> s/pllying/applying/
[11:37] <tjl2> not me - just observing...
[11:37] <opi> then, MOTU
[11:38] <opi> and the World Domination
[11:38] <Seveas> lol
[11:38] <ivoks> opi: that would be Universe domination
[11:38] <dieman> i might apply next month
[11:38] <ivoks> :)
[11:38] <Simira> the meeting's in 20 mins, right?
[11:38] <kassetra> I think I have already been made a member, but as I couldn't make the last meeting, I came to this one.
[11:38] <Seveas> Simira, yes
[11:38] <dieman> depends on if i get involved enough in the next month or so
[11:38] <opi> well, the last point will be easy, as I'm a member of Dogbert's New Rulling Class
[11:38] <dieman> so far im just submitting bugs and doing a lot of stuff locally
[11:39] <dieman> 45 installed ubuntu machines at work so far.
[11:39] <opi> dieman: just hang around and you'll know would you like to share title with fsc^H^H^Hpeople like us. :)
[11:39] <dieman> just need to reinstall 260 debian machines. ugh.
[11:39] <opi> dieman: I can not compete there, not more than 10 ;)
[11:40] <opi> dieman: you can try to move them to the Hoary
[11:40] <Seveas> dieman, i need to do ~35
[11:40] <Seveas> but they want red hat on them
[11:40] <JohnDong> opi: not good idea
[11:40] <Seveas> i'm gonna push ubuntu until they either snap or fire me :)
[11:40] <JohnDong> I've tried
[11:40] <opi> JohnDong: unless it's an oldie
[11:40] <opi> JohnDong: the SID should move without much problems :-)
[11:40] <JohnDong> Woody to Warty was pretty awful
[11:40] <JohnDong> and Sid to Hoary DEFINITELY won't work
[11:40] <dieman> opi: i've got about 14 warty machines im going to be upgrading to hoary
[11:41] <dieman> opi: been doing them 'by hand' to ensure X works.
[11:41] <JohnDong> Sid is much newer than Hoary
[11:41] <JohnDong> that's why I can still get backports from Sid ;)
[11:41] <JohnDong> minus the GCC 4
[11:41] <Seveas> yeah, glibc hell :)
[11:41] <opi> JohnDong: right, I've been reading about such move before Hoary was frozen
[11:41] <Seveas> even sarge->hoary is hard
[11:41] <jbailey> Seveas: Hmm?
[11:41] <\sh> dieman: which debian u r running on the servers?
[11:41] <JohnDong> BEFORE hoary was frozen
[11:41] <JohnDong> now Hoary IS frozen
[11:41] <JohnDong> lol
[11:41] <dieman> \sh: servers aren't debian for the most part, they are solaris.
[11:42] <Seveas> jbailey, when trying to move from sid to hoary you encounter some glibc 'problems'
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: these are mostly desktops and cluster machines.
[11:42] <kassetra> I do have to say that upgrading from Warty to Hoary was painful, but not nearly as painful as any other upgrade I've ever done.
[11:42] <jbailey> Seveas: Eh, really?  Sid to hoary ought to be fine.
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: the 260 debian boxes are woody + lots of local crap and backports
[11:42] <jbailey> Oh wait.
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: and local kernels, and etc.
[11:42] <Seveas> sid has a newer glibc..
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: its very painful.
[11:42] <jbailey> Seveas: Right, but I think it downgrades safely.
[11:42] <Kamion> downgrades are generally painful
[11:42] <jbailey> You can't move from the experimental glibc to Hoary.
[11:42] <dieman> heh
[11:42] <Seveas> jbailey, i would be surprised :)
[11:43] <opi> whatever you do, redoing 260 will be painful whatever you do
[11:43] <dholbach>  b a c k p o r t s *SHUDDER*
[11:43] <opi> s/what...//
[11:43] <dieman> opi: i've got help :)
[11:43] <Kamion> you can do woody->warty->hoary (tediously), and you'll be able to do sarge->breezy
[11:43] <Seveas> opi++
[11:43] <jbailey> You can move from experimental glibc to sid glibc to hoary, I think, though.  I didn't include the downgrade magic in Hoary.
[11:43] <dieman> opi: plus 109 of them are in labs, i can do those in about a day
[11:43] <dieman> opi: using fai. :)
[11:43] <kassetra> backports are good!  :)
[11:43] <\sh> dieman: ah...yeah i can imagine...quite the same situation we had at lycos with out debian servers
[11:43] <mdke> i'm with dholbach
[11:43] <dieman> kassetra: heh, they are good when someone is managing a backport and has time.
[11:44] <kassetra> and that's jdong for me, at least.  :)
[11:44] <dieman> kassetra: its bad when you start piling them up locally and have to deal with security updates :)
[11:44] <dholbach> kassetra: most of the people, i helped to upgrade, who had severely fucked up systems, used backports which broke their upgrade paths :-/
[11:44] <dieman> \sh: heh
[11:44] <dieman> \sh: i've got a few headless machines running ubuntu anyhow.
[11:44] <opi> dholbach: you should see my old Debian box
[11:44] <dieman> \sh: this colo box runs sarge, tho.
[11:44] <opi> dholbach: backports are at least in .deb form
[11:44] <mdke> also its important that people realise that backports will inevitably not be as stable as the tested ubuntu packages
[11:44] <kassetra> well, on my system, all of the backports upgraded flawlessly, it was xserver->xorg and nvidia upgrades that botched it.
[11:45] <opi> dholbach: while my box was partly-this-partly-that-partly-from-sources
[11:45] <dholbach> opi: .deb can be EVERYTHING
[11:45] <dieman> dholbach: like some of the experimental xf86 4.3 woody backports :)
[11:45] <kassetra> the only backports I use are the ones that jdong builds, actually...
[11:45] <Kamion> which are about 50 times harder to get right than the average backport to start with. :)
[11:45] <\sh> dieman: u have cfengine running, too?
[11:45] <Kamion> (xorg and nvidia that is)
[11:45] <dieman> \sh: yeah
[11:45] <dholbach> OUCH
[11:45] <opi> dholbach: sure, but at least you have some tools to deal with it :-)
[11:45] <dieman> \sh: i've actually promised to put some cfengine examples on the web
[11:45] <\sh> dieman: thats much nicer in a DC env
[11:45] <dieman> \sh: i need to do that soon.
[11:45] <Seveas> tools can't beat bad packager
[11:45] <Seveas> s
[11:45] <opi> dholbach: it died before Sarge get in, so I'm not crying :P
[11:46] <dholbach> people should try get involved in the development cycle and do some GOOD work in something that is to be released
[11:46] <dieman> \sh: i've essentially got a unified cfengine config i've used from the old progeny stuff, to woody, to ubuntu hoary and warty
[11:46] <opi> dholbach: actually, it died year ago.. man, there's still no Sarge ;}
[11:46] <dieman> \sh: the ability for cfengine to class things based on shell scripts is nice
[11:46] <dholbach> and backports for a half-a-year...
[11:46] <dieman> \sh: lsb_release -c -s is my friend :)
[11:47] <mako> greetings everyone
[11:47] <kassetra> hello!  :)
[11:47] <opi> mako-san
[11:47] <dieman> i should go get on the bus so i can join the metting from there.
[11:47] <dieman> meeting, rather
[11:47] <mako> my network is *flakey*
[11:47] <Seveas> you have 13 minutes dieman :)
[11:47] <\sh> hey maki
[11:47] <Seveas> greetings mako
[11:47] <\sh> mako even :)
[11:47] <dieman> mako: thats what .edu networks are for! :)
[11:47] <opi> mako: if you'll split, we'll badmouth about Ubuntu-CC ;)
[11:48] <mako> well, i'm connecting from one .edu to the other and they have both developed the jitters in the last hour
[11:48] <mako> in any case
[11:48] <dieman> mako: heh, nice.
[11:48] <dieman> brb
[11:48] <\sh> dieman: for us it was quite difficult..we managed 3 different archs and 5 diff. unixes
[11:49] <mako> alright.. the agenda has exploaded overnight.. always a good sign
[11:49] <mdke> hiya mako
[11:49] <mako> mdke: greetings :)
[11:50] <opi> \sh: you should think about some intagration
[11:50] <\sh> opi: I did....i'm not working for lycos anymore ,)
[11:50] <opi> \sh: ha ha
[11:50] <Kamion> mako: is it just me or does the agenda have stuff from four weeks ago?
[11:50] <opi> \sh: sounds like a solution to my problems at work :-)
[11:51] <mako> Kamion: umm.. i think i cleaned it up
[11:51] <mdke>  Rock the Casbah.
[11:51] <Kamion> the LoCo stuff?
[11:51] <mako> Kamion: we defered teh loco team mailing stuff from 2 weeks ago
[11:51] <\sh> opi: hehe...well but right now the situation is not better
[11:51] <mako> and the first candidates we considered last time and put off
[11:52] <mako> the rest haven't been looked at in a meeting yet
[11:52] <mako> Kamion: yes, the first loco item is review
[11:52] <mako> smurfix: you around?
[11:52] <smurfix> yes
[11:52] <mako> killer
[11:52] <smurfix> *yawn*  ;-)
[11:53] <opi> smurfix: get a mug of tasteful-brown-wather
[11:53] <\sh> ah mr. uisdn ;)
[11:54] <JaneW> mako: get out of the park, I hear connectivity is generally better in doors :P
[11:55] <Seveas> robitaille, only if it's neither decaf nor light :)
[11:55] <smurfix> \sh: I actually hope to outlive everybody who still remembers that stuff
[11:55] <mako> JaneW: it has been pretty nasty and cold since last thursday
[11:55] <mako> :(
[11:55] <\sh> smurfix: no way ;)
[11:55] <mako> no park hacking for me lately :(
[11:55] <opi> robitaille: it counts as derusting liquid :-)
[11:56] <mako> that's gonna be me all summer though..
[11:56] <mdke> nice
[11:56] <opi> mako: go to the park with a laptop at my city
[11:56] <opi> mako: there's no WiFi there
[11:56] <Seveas> haha
[11:56] <ogra> woah, joeys blog is heavy today....
[11:56] <opi> mako: plus, you'll get robed ;)
[11:56] <mako> now that i have a laptop with a screen that take the sun, being inside on a nice day is hard to justify
[11:56] <mdke> here you get your laptop full of water
[11:56] <JaneW> mako: making me jealous, winter has set in here, 12 degs (celcius) here atm
[11:56] <opi> mdke: yup, rains all over the europe
[11:56] <Seveas> here in amsterdam they have wifi in bars :)
[11:57] <\sh> JaneW: joburg or capetown?
[11:57] <JaneW> \sh: cape town
[11:57] <opi> Seveas: bah, I have a bar at my office :->
[11:57] <mako> JaneW: with a winter at 12d, don't expect too much sympathy :)
[11:57] <mako> JaneW: try -12 :P
[11:57] <JaneW> mako: true ;)
[11:57] <opi> Seveas: ok, a fridge with beer, but that's almost like it ;)
[11:57] <opi> before we begin
[11:57] <Seveas> :)
[11:57] <Simira> opi: no rain in Norway to day.  Congrats with what?
[11:58] <mako> i count two minutes
[11:58] <opi> it make no sesn in Polish, too
[11:58] <opi> so we posted something after that
[11:58] <Nafallo> Simira: typo for siretart ;-)
[11:58] <opi> http://kierzko.com/dowcip/
[11:58] <\sh> JaneW: snow on the mountains?
[11:58] <opi> scroll to the bottom ;)
[11:58] <Nafallo> Simira: and hi *hugs* :-)
[11:58] <dieman> back...
[11:58] <dieman> damn freenode needs ident.
[11:59] <Seveas> opi, which one of those are you?
[11:59] <JaneW> \sh: not yet, but soon, it will drop to belwo 10 degs then
[11:59] <Nafallo> dieman: it's not a must :-)
[11:59] <siretart> Nafallo: thanks :)
[11:59] <dave_> date --utc
[11:59] <mako> alright, we'll officially start in a couple minutes
[11:59] <Nafallo> siretart: *s* :-)
[11:59] <\sh> JaneW: but then you have the nicest season coming: the whales ;)
[11:59] <mako> sabdfl will not be joining us today
[11:59] <dieman> Nafallo: ahh, i guess only some of them do.
[12:00] <xuzo> hi
[12:00] <dave_> hello
[12:00] <mako> dave_: greetings
[12:00] <mako> which means you guys are stuck with the likes of myself, kamion and elmo :)
[12:00] <mako> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[12:00] <JaneW> \sh: yes and wine and fires and chocolate can be quite fun ;)
[12:00] <Seveas> ah well, could be worse :)
[12:00] <Nafallo> dieman: AFAIK they only asks you if you have it, witch takes an awful time if you drop the packets ;-).
[12:00] <mako> aganeda is up there and you have about -1 minutes to add something :)
[12:00] <\sh> JaneW: oh yeah..stellenbosch ;)
[12:01] <dieman> Nafallo: i had at least 2 servers drop me without it.
[12:01] <Simira> chocolate!
[12:01] <Nafallo> dieman: yay, I've been lucky then ;-)
[12:01] <ogra> Simira, i thought tea
[12:01] <mako> alright, lets get this party started
[12:01] <mako> no wait
[12:01] <dieman> oh well.