[00:36] <lifeless> ScottK: hi
[01:22] <ScottK> Hello lifeless.
[01:27] <lifeless> ScottK: I wanted to see if +queue works better for you now
[01:27] <lifeless> ScottK: just for NEW/UNAPPROVED handling
[01:28] <ScottK> lifeless: I don't have any packages to accept, but we're going into beta freeze on Friday, so should be pleanty then.
[01:28] <lifeless> ScottK: is there any way we can check before frday?
[01:28] <ScottK> I'll find something.
[01:28] <lifeless> ScottK: (if its a problem on friday, we probably can't do anything till late monday to fix it)
[01:29] <ScottK> OK.  There's no doubt some binary New that needs doing.
[01:29] <ScottK> I'll have a look in a bit.
[01:29] <lifeless> thanks!
[01:38] <micahg> ScottK: you could always upload some random package with a new source name a couple dozen times to test :)
[01:38] <ScottK> I could.
[02:08] <micahg> lifeless: I just got a page not found on clicking logout
[02:09] <lifeless> bug  663975 ?
[02:09] <lifeless> or bug 579547 ?
[02:09] <lifeless> or bug 684210 ?
[02:09] <lifeless> or bug 628410 ?
[02:10] <micahg> lifeless: it's 684210
[08:59] <lifeless> ScottK: did you get a chance to test +queue?
[09:08] <mrevell> Hello 'padders
[09:50] <czajkowski> mrevell: *hugs*
[09:50] <mrevell> Hello there czajkowski
[09:56] <czajkowski> mrevell: how's you?
[09:56] <mrevell> I'm well thanks czajkowski. How are you?
[09:56] <czajkowski> not too bad, sitting in the office, looking at my very long to do list and out at the sunshine
[09:57] <mrevell> Heh, well, at least we have the sunshine.
[09:59] <czajkowski> indeed
[09:59] <czajkowski> such a pretty view of the canal and the boats going by down here
[10:19] <ScottK> lifeless: No.  I knew I was forgetting something last night.  I'll try it today.
[10:24] <wgrant> It's still by no means fast, but it should be somewhat better.
[10:52] <arand_> mrevell: Hello, in regards to the PPA ToU, Martin Owens making a conflicting statement on the mailing list, so I just wanted to make sure, freeware (provided all packaging componets also are freeware) can go in a PPA?
[10:53] <geser> wgrant: Hi, are you a little bit familiar with package sets?
[10:53] <mrevell> arand_, Hi there. I haven't seen Martin's email yet. I spoke to a few people in the Canonical Launchpad team yesterday and we agreed that the terms of use allow you to do what you want ... so long as it's freely distributable.
[10:53] <wgrant> geser: I am.
[10:54] <geser> wgrant: is it a bug that DMB owned package sets in maverick got TB owned in natty? I guess it happend when natty got initialized
[10:54] <lifeless> geser: wgrant wants to talk to you about the ftbfs report too :)
[10:54] <lifeless> ScottK: thanks
[10:54] <lifeless> wgrant: +queue /processing/ was still slow? did you get a ++oops++ ?
[10:54] <wgrant> geser: Hm, interesting. When was the ownership transferred from TB to DMB?
[10:55] <wgrant> lifeless: There are bits of it which should still be terribly slow.
[10:55] <geser> wgrant: those package sets where created DMB owned by the TB (or more precisely cjwatson at that time)
[10:55] <wgrant> geser: Hm, OK. Let me check the copying code.
[10:55] <mrevell> arand_: I've just read Martin's email and I can totally understand why he says what he does but our PPA terms of use are different to those of our project hosting terms of use (https://help.launchpad.net/Legal/ProjectLicensing)
[10:55] <lifeless> wgrant: right, care to get a ++oops++ trace, for proactive fixing?
[10:56] <geser> wgrant: see also my question to the TB about it for a list of package sets (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html)
[10:56] <arand_> mrevell: Ok, excellent. I'll continue poking upstream in hopes that one day in the future... Anyhow, for now, great, I will re-open the PPA with these terms applying to the packages, thanks for looking into it.
[10:57] <mrevell> arand_, No problem. Thanks for being flexible to meet the terms of use.
[10:58] <wgrant> geser: Distroseries initialisation creates the new packagesets with the same owner as the distroseries. This sounds like a bug.
[10:59] <wgrant> geser: I'm not sure if packagesets are transferrable without SQL.
[16:05] <exarkun> What's the URL to launchpad staging?
[16:05] <tsimpson> staging.launchpad.net
[16:06] <exarkun> has it really been down for two days?
[16:07] <tsimpson> well, staging is hardly gets the love production does
[16:07] <tsimpson> maybe jcsackett knows more?
[16:20] <jcsackett> exarkun: staging gets used for testing our db changes. my understanding is that we've had db changes cause a problem in the staging update/restore.
[16:21] <jcsackett> exarkun: you can use qastaging.launchpad.net if you want to try something out.
[16:21] <exarkun> Okay.  So eventually it will come back, as soon as someone deals with those changes?
[16:21] <exarkun> I was trying to look at a bug import (that you did for me, thanks :).  Will that be on qastaging too?
[16:22] <jcsackett> exarkun: oh, of course.
[16:22] <jcsackett> (to what you needed staging for)
[16:22] <jcsackett> regrettably, i don't think that *will* be on qastaging. you can check, and if it is not i can see if we can import it there.
[16:23] <exarkun> It's not a big deal, I can wait.  This migration is on my back, back, back burner...
[16:23] <jcsackett> exarkun: understood. i can tell you staging will be brought back up as soon as we've sorted the issue.
[16:23] <exarkun> Cool, thanks.
[16:23] <jcsackett> exarkun: while it's true staging doesn't get the love production does, it is an important part of the lp development process, so we have a vested interest in getting back up asap. :-)
[17:27] <pedro__> hi from Vienna
[17:28] <pedro__> What action would you take if someone spams launchpad and you think you know the responsible company/person ?
[17:32] <pedro__> Really just nothin ?
[17:32] <EvilPhoenix> patience is a virtue dude
[17:33] <jcsackett> hi pedro__: can you point me to the spam in question?
[17:33] <jcsackett> conventionally we have a question opened at answers.launchpad.net/launchpad pointing to the spam and with all the relevant details.
[17:34] <jcsackett> if it's an lp user, we contact them and may disable their account, and we get the spam comments removed.
[17:34] <pedro__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XO_Communications   /* diploma scam is the prob on launchpad - email address of user was faked also
[17:36] <jcsackett> pedro__: was the spam on launchpad, via a list, some other thing?
[17:37] <pedro__> hi Jsackett, sent you a spam investigation report  already
[17:40] <pedro__> I wrote already a letter to XO/Allegiance and did not get any reply yet - SPAM seems to be their business model
[17:41] <jcsackett> ah, pedro, you're one of the users i contacted via email some time ago?
[17:41]  * pedro__ goes for a walk
[17:46] <pedro__> jah
[17:46] <pedro__> so how many users got this problem ?
[17:48] <jcsackett> pedro__: as i said in the email, there were just a few spam comments. they have been dealt with.
[17:48] <jcsackett> if you can confirm that your email/lp accounts are not compromised, i would be happy to reactivate your account.
[17:50] <pedro__> not yet, I still got now answer from XO/Allegiance about the SPAM of their customers - waiting since last Thursday
[17:51] <pedro__> Can someone here proof if XO/Allegiance Telecom is supporting spammers ?
[17:52] <torkvemada> Hello all. Please, could anyone tell me, is there any progress with git import? I want to import rather large project with 7 submodules for packaging, but can't do this because submodules are not supported.
[17:54] <torkvemada> I would be happy even if tree was imported without submodules at all - as I realize, I can "emulate" them during packaging by nesting a number of branches. But there is no such import option :(
[17:57]  * pedro__ learns english till 25 years and is still a beginner in talking calm and friendly
[17:59] <jcsackett> pedro__: dealing with whatever compromised your email isn't a requisite for reactivating your account.
[17:59] <jcsackett> torkvemada: i see bug 402814 as being the source of info for your question.
[18:00] <jcsackett> is the very recent comment there you?
[18:00] <torkvemada> yes :)
[18:01] <torkvemada> but there's no progress info there since September.
[18:01] <jcsackett> yes, i see that.
[18:01] <torkvemada> I was hoping someone knows something more specific
[18:03] <pedro__> jcsacket - ok, lets try to reuse my launchpad account - you are my honeypot ;-)
[18:30] <bjf> i'm looking for the api documentation for login_with(), i normally use "production" or "staging" but want to use the "qastaging" server and can't remember if I just use the url instead of "staging" for the second parameter
[18:31] <leonardr> bjf: you should be able to use "qastaging"
[18:31] <bjf> leonardr, will give that a try
[18:42] <bjf> leonard, i'm getting: ValueError: qastaging is not a valid URL or an alias for any Launchpad server
[18:42] <bjf> leonardr, i believe i have to use the actual url
[18:44] <leonardr> bjf: you probably have an old version of launchpadlib. use the url for now
[18:44] <bjf> i'm running on Lucid
[18:44] <bjf> leonardr, ^
[18:45] <leonardr> bjf: yes, use the url until you upgrade to the maverick version
[18:48] <bjf> leonardr, will the maverick version install on lucid, being an lts it's going to be around for a while
[18:50] <leonardr> bjf: probably easier to just use the url. the maverick version has new dependencies not present in lucid
[18:50] <lifeless> ScottK: hi
[18:50] <ScottK> Hello lifeless.
[18:51] <ScottK> Let me see what I can scare up to accept.
[19:02] <ScottK> lifeless: Works.
[19:38] <lifeless> ScottK: ool
[19:38] <lifeless> *cool*
[20:44] <bjf> it's been so long since i've had to log in with a url that i've forgotten how, lp = Launchpad.login_with('lptest', 'https://qastaging.launchpad.net')  isn't working for me
[20:44] <bjf> i'm getting the authentication page and then a "Lost something?" page
[20:47] <james_w> bjf, service_root="https://api.qastaging.launchpad.net/" I think
[20:47] <james_w> though actually those symptoms sound like something other than getting that argument wrong
[20:48] <bjf> james_w, i think you got it, didn't get the "Lost something" this time
[20:48] <james_w> great
[20:51] <bjf> james_w, indeed, that was it, thanks for the help
[21:14] <arand> sinzui: Hi, how I seem to understand it is that things that can go in ubuntu "restricted" may also go in a PPA, and the terms of restricted are much more loose that that of dfsg or osi-approved...
[21:15] <arand> And that proprietary freeware can in fact go in "restricted", am I wrong here?
[21:17] <sinzui> arand: they can, but I think a commercial license is required. All the ones I know about have a license
[21:18] <arand> Ok, time to pull the packages down again...
[21:20] <sinzui> arand: I am looking for the actual agreement we signed. wait until I can confirm this
[21:20] <arand> sinzui: And this is not just for hosting a full project, rather than a PPA? (As was discussed on the mailing list)
[21:22] <sinzui> that is right. but the rules I know for both are largely ideentical now. There were not a few years ago, but now that you allow users to buy PPAs, I do not think there is a difference
[21:24] <arand> Well at the moment https://help.launchpad.net/PPATermsofUse Does state: "You understand and agree that any content you upload to PPAs must be freely redistributable by Canonical, and released under a license permitting redistribution free of charge. Acceptable licenses include those which fall under one or more of the following: (...) Ubuntu "main" and "restricted" Component license Policy Compliant.
[21:25] <arand> Hmm... that "and" there says it must comply with main, basically? In that case you would be very much incompatible with freeware.
[21:26] <sinzui> arand: " Ubuntu "main" and "restricted" Component license Policy Compliant" is not a license, ti is a separate set of rules
[21:31] <arand> Hmm, in those terms it seems that it's the noncommercialness of the software in question which is incompatible..
[21:34] <arand> "While Ubuntu will not charge licence fees for this distribution, you might want to charge to print Ubuntu CDs, or create your own customised versions of Ubuntu which you sell, and should have the freedom to do so." vs "can only redistribute unchanged"
[21:38] <arand> ...Along with the fact that the software contains several CC-*-NC items..
[21:38] <sinzui> arand: I think the crux of the issue is that PPAs (user archives) are not in main or restricted. Your package could be distributed in restricted, but it is will not be
[21:42] <sinzui> NC is a big no-no since it discriminates against a group
[21:42] <sinzui> or purpose
[21:44] <ScottK> NC would not  fall into main or restricted compliant.
[21:44] <arand> Oh, right, well that is definitely a clear incompatibility. Don't think that can be argued much.
[21:45] <ScottK> NC is OK for multiverse, but that's it.
[21:50] <arand> Right. *sigh*, time to go bug upstream. Though I guess this might take some time (since NC material is not theirs to start with, and needs replacing), anyways, thanks a lot for your time looking into this!
[21:56] <lifeless> arand: sinzui: hi
[21:56] <lifeless> arand: the PPA ToU are pretty clear to me, they permit pretty much anything
[21:57] <sinzui> lifeless: NC violates item 6
[21:59] <sinzui> lifeless, arand: the NC items violates item 6 of "Ubuntu 'main' and 'restricted' component licence policy", and NC is not accepted by OSI or DFSG
[22:00] <lifeless> sinzui: those rules are not required by PPAs
[22:00] <wgrant> lifeless: They are.
[22:00] <lifeless> not according to https://help.launchpad.net/PPATermsofUse
[22:00] <wgrant> lifeless: The only thing allowing non-free software in PPAs is the "Ubuntu 'main' and 'restricted' component licence policy" line.
[22:01] <lifeless> wgrant: read the doc
[22:01] <wgrant> Are you taking "You understand and agree that any content you upload to PPAs must be freely redistributable by Canonical, and released under a license permitting redistribution free of charge." as allowing NC content?
[22:02] <lifeless> yes
[22:02] <lifeless> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.0/
[22:02] <lifeless> freely redistributable by Canonical is permitted by 'to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work'
[22:02] <sinzui> We do not accept that, and we make it clear it is not accepted on that PPA ToS
[22:02] <wgrant> I know the license.
[22:02] <lifeless> redistribution free of charge is permitted by ''to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work + 'to Remix — to adapt the work'
[22:02] <wgrant> sinzui: It's not clear.
[22:03] <lifeless> sinzui: no, the PPA ToU help.l.n wiki page *does not say that*
[22:03] <wgrant> The first sentence' of the second paragraph of the ToU seems to allow it.
[22:03] <lifeless> we may wish to change it, but *as written* it clearly permits it
[22:04] <sinzui> I think that is the case, the main/restricted component is not like the licneses/rules listed
[22:04] <lifeless> sinzui: the main component is given as *an example*
[22:04] <wgrant> So, as I said a couple of days ago, changing this is somewhat problematic.
[22:04] <lifeless> sinzui: not as *a constraint*
[22:04] <wgrant> As it may forbid eg. testing of multiverse packages in PPAs.
[22:04] <sinzui> I do not want to ever get into another argument (ie exception debate) about NC. Until Corporate says Lp allows it, I will not allow it
[22:05] <lifeless> sinzui: then we *must* change the wiki page because it clearly permits CC-NC, adobe acrobat and others.
[22:06] <lifeless> [well, perhaps not adobe, it might not have the transitiveness we need]
[22:06] <wgrant> No, Adobe Reader is still bad.
[22:06] <sinzui> lifeless:  we allow partners to buy exceptions. It is in their contract
[22:06] <lifeless> sinzui: our docs say that the constraints are: ' freely redistributable by Canonical, and released under a license permitting redistribution free of charge'
[22:06] <lifeless> sinzui: how does CC-BY-NC violate that
[22:07] <ScottK> If that's all it says than NC is fine.
[22:07] <ScottK> than/then
[22:07]  * ScottK thought from the discussion it was redistributable and OK for main or restricted.
[22:07] <lifeless> sinzui: are there other docs we should know about (e.g. internal, historical communication with -legal, etc?)
[22:07] <lifeless> ScottK: https://help.launchpad.net/PPATermsofUse is the link we use in the web UI to tell users the rules
[22:08] <sinzui> lifeless: I said I will not argue this any more.  Someone higher up can changes the rules, but I will not participate in it
[22:09] <wgrant> ScottK: It seems pretty clearly fine, but I think we all think the doc is wrong.
[22:09] <ScottK> wgrant: As I read it the list is examplary and the key point is redistributable by Canonical.
[22:09] <lifeless> sinzui: I'm sorry you feel attacked; I'm really not trying to do that. I'm trying to make sure that we don't have a stream of users thinking they can do something we don't want them to because our docs say they can.
[22:09] <ScottK> NC certainly is.
[22:09] <wgrant> ScottK: Yup.
[22:10] <lifeless> flacoste: ping
[22:10] <lifeless> sinzui: I certainly appreciate the higher-up constraint, so lets start escalating up the mgmt chain.
[22:10] <lifeless> joey: ping - you edited the PPA ToU page, and we have some confusion about it
[22:11] <joey> howdy lifeless
[22:11] <joey> lifeless: this one? https://help.launchpad.net/PPATermsofUse
[22:11] <lifeless> joey: hi, we appear to have a mismatch between our internalised model of what can go in a PPA and https://help.launchpad.net/PPATermsofUse
[22:12] <lifeless> joey: the PPA docs seem to set two cconstraints and give some exemplary examples that meet those constraints
[22:12] <sinzui> lifeless: I do not think anyone is being bad here. It is simply a matter that this issue comes up and the answer has been NC subverts our intent. We corrected other policies where we discovered out intent was subverted
[22:12] <ScottK> sinzui: What intent does it subvert?
[22:12] <ScottK> The ability to raise revenue for non-commercial content?
[22:12] <ScottK> I doubt that'll be a big money maker.
[22:13] <lifeless> ScottK: we want to contribute resources to FOSS community participants
[22:13] <lifeless> ScottK: we don't want to contribute to proprietary efforts; and we offer for-pay services for them
[22:13] <lifeless> ScottK: this is particularly interested for folk that are dabbling in FOSS, and or transitioning
[22:13] <joey> if I understand correctly, a) you (lifeless) should formulate this in an email to amanda and b) I believe you are correct. NC is not at odds with redistribution
[22:14] <joey> lifeless: the main goal there was not to have things in a public PPA which would violate Ubuntu's model
[22:15] <joey> lifeless: it may need to be updated though given the success of software center
[22:15] <lifeless> jml: are you gone yet ?
[22:15] <wgrant> This matches Ubuntu's model well.
[22:15] <wgrant> But it's not clear how correct that is for LP.
[22:15] <lifeless> wgrant: given the confusion, to what are you binding this?
[22:15] <joey> lifeless: for history, this is a stevea + joey + amanda  deal with input by mdz via stevea.
[22:17] <joey> however I can't say that NC should or can be there. You'd need amanda for that
[22:17] <lifeless> joey: sinzui: I think we need to do two things : We need to discuss the policy aspect, and depending on how that goes we need to double-check with amanda on the NC case.
[22:17] <ScottK> "Acceptable licenses include ..." is pretty clear that the list is examplary.
[22:18] <joey> ScottK: yeah I bargained for that in case other acceptable licenses came along later
[22:18] <lifeless> ScottK: this may be a case of left-hand right-hand
[22:18] <ScottK> Since NC is allowed in Multiverse, it fits with the "Ubuntu model" too.
[22:18] <joey> ScottK: to allow for a case by case evaluatoin
[22:19] <ScottK> The only clear rule given is "Must be redistributable".
[22:19] <joey> lifeless: the other thing I should note was that when we wrote the ppa tos, LP was on track to be a commercial application so it might be worth a bit of a rethink
[22:19] <joey> ScottK: well.... there is the battlenet  daemon
[22:19] <joey> ScottK: in that case we include it even though in some countries, e.g. USA, it's a crime to have it installed
[22:20] <lifeless> joey: 'crime'
[22:20] <joey> lifeless: yeah :-)
[22:20] <ScottK> Crime or violation of civil law for which one can be sued?
[22:20] <joey> anyway, I hope this helps
[22:20] <joey> ScottK: wikipedia has a reasonably good discourse on it
[22:21] <joey> ScottK: my concern was whether Canonical would be accused of something, get sued, etc..
[22:21] <ScottK> Crime is a word that gets overused.
[22:21] <joey> ScottK: was just a use case that was present when we wrote that up
[22:21] <lifeless> joey: sinzui: I will mail the internal list about the policy aspect
[22:21] <lifeless> and we'll see where it goes
[22:21] <ScottK> Any time you distribute something there's a risk.
[22:21] <wgrant> ScottK: DMCA, yay.
[22:22] <joey> lifeless:  I'm not on there so if you want me to comment on anything in the future, just cc me please
[22:22] <ScottK> wgrant: At least we aren't trying to set up a giant border router for 'the safety of the children'.
[22:22] <lifeless> arand: if you can take the packages down for a few days - say till monday - we'll get our internal inconsistencies sorted out and come back with a clear message about the constraints.
[22:22] <wgrant> ScottK: Fair point.
[22:22] <lifeless> arand: I don't know whether the current ones will end up ok or not, I suggest not stressing any which way until we have this figured out.
[22:23] <ScottK> lifeless: I do hope you come up with something that outsiders can read and determine accurately if their content is acceptable.
[22:23] <lifeless> ScottK: thats an important metric and why we're having this discussion :)
[22:23] <joey> We did have a larger list of items but that was shot down when I did the current version
[22:24] <joey> however most of that went into the project details page
[22:24] <joey> i.e. select the license this project falls under
[22:24] <joey> I don't recall the reason why it was shot down on the ppa though
[22:24] <joey> probably not important any longer whatever is was
[22:26] <joey> and lifeless, I know it is more work, but you may also want to go through all the docs at https://help.launchpad.net/Legal to ensure they are still correct
[22:26] <lifeless> joey: thanks :P
[22:26] <joey> afaik, they haven't been touched since I moved off LP
[22:26] <sinzui> joey: archives contain heterogeneous packages. selecting a license does not make sense
[22:27] <sinzui> that is the same reason that distros do not have licenses.
[22:27] <joey> If you can make that point to legal, more power to you
[22:28] <ScottK> It's a multi-select option in project setup.
[22:28] <ScottK> You can pick multiple licenses.
[22:28] <joey> right
[22:28] <joey> I would have thought for 99% of all PPAs out there that a multi-check box setup would be acceptable
[22:28] <joey> especially since one of those boxes is "other"
[22:29] <joey> and in truth, we have private ppas which hold programs which violate the TOS
[22:29] <joey> for which I point you to cody-somerville for details
[22:30] <joey> in fairness the TOS was meant to cover public PPAs not private PPAs
[22:31] <sinzui> joey: private ppas are exempt. We are happy to ask for money to enable them
[22:37] <lifeless> mail sent
[23:19] <micahg> lifeless: wgrant I've got another copy-packages timeout
[23:19] <wgrant> micahg: Do you have an OOPS ID?
[23:19] <micahg> OOPS-1908M2288
[23:44] <wgrant> micahg: That's bug #733071. I've not seen it that bad for a single source before, though :/
[23:47] <micahg> wgrant: thanks


[02:37] <dCrim> Hey.
[02:38] <dCrim> Does anyone know why the insight GDB GUI disappeared?
[03:23] <wgrant> I'm confused.
[03:24] <wgrant> I'm sure I've seen two 2700-build Python 2.7 rebuilds use up days of build farm time.
[03:24] <wgrant> But neither PPA exists any more.
[03:31] <Sarvatt> looks like theres a fourth starting up now.. https://edge.launchpad.net/~pythoneers/+archive/py27stack4
[03:31] <soren> You must be kidding.
[03:32] <soren> Dear god, no.
[03:32] <Sarvatt> guess that explains the 3-4 day queues for the past week
[03:33] <soren> I see the PPA, but the build queue hasn't exploded yet.
[03:33] <soren> 1233 jobs is as good as it's been all week.
[03:44] <wgrant> At least we're heading for an empty queue in the next 48 hours.
[03:44] <wgrant> Possibly 24, depending on how things go, but I'm not holding my breath.
[03:45] <wgrant> Although given the recent track record, there will probably be an archive rebuild and three Python rebuilds starting on Monday....
[03:46] <wgrant> And a day into that, 90% of the builders will disappear for 24 hours.
[03:57] <Sarvatt> i'm guessing it's just calmed down because they need to wait for the early deps to build too before they dump the other 1500 packages in the PPA :)
[04:25] <wgrant> Sarvatt: Ah, fair point.
[04:31] <wgrant> I must convince people at some point that we need a better queue discipline.
[05:06] <Sarvatt> cjwatson: how recently did gfxpayload=keep get re-added to grub? I'm noticing widescale bustage on all KMS configurations today without something like vesafb=sucks getting added to make it not load or dropping it
[06:30] <SandGorgon> hey guys.. if new symbols are being included into the Unicode character map - is it possible to update the character map of an install ? or does it come implicitly with a Pango update ?
[07:10] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: I posted to ubuntu-devel about it
[07:10] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: this time, I want to debug these problems rather than just ignoring them
[07:17] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: what kind of problems are we talking about?
[07:26] <achiang> hm.
[07:26] <achiang> GRUB_TIMEOUT=0 ; GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10
[07:27] <achiang> i hit the shift key during boot, and i see GRUB Loading. but no menu
[07:27] <achiang> is that expected behavior?
[07:28] <achiang> cjwatson: ^^
[07:29] <cjwatson> pretty sure you need a positive GRUB_TIMEOUT to see the menu.
[07:30] <achiang> hm
[07:30] <achiang> i really want the menu to be hidden, unless i press a key so i can do some debugging
[07:30] <achiang> maybe that's not possible
[07:30] <cjwatson> GRUB_TIMEOUT=<positive> doesn't unconditionally show the menu
[07:31] <cjwatson> if no key is pressed during the GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT phase then it won't show
[07:31] <achiang> alright, i'll try that, thanks
[07:31] <Sarvatt> cjohnston: have you not booted twice using KMS since updating it? I've got 6 machines all broken the same way and have been getting a bunch of reports of it in #ubuntu-x. plymouth dies like this - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/606393 and on intel X wont start at all unless you press escape to switch away from the broken splash before it starts, on my nouveau machines its not loading the modules until after X start
[07:31] <Sarvatt> s since there's already another framebuffer device i'm guessing and having the ddx load the module doesn't actually work
[07:31] <Sarvatt> sorry, cjwatson :)
[07:31] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: yes, I have
[07:31] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: works fine on my system
[07:32] <achiang> cjwatson: should i be seeing a blinking cursor when the menu is hidden though?
[07:32] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: there are some kernel bugs which we definitely need to shake out, but if I just leave gfxpayload=text then we'll never get rid of them
[07:32]  * Sarvatt nods
[07:32] <achiang> cjwatson: i also have GRUB_GFXMODE=640x480
[07:32] <cjwatson> achiang: we don't manage to turn it off quite everywhere yet
[07:33] <cjwatson> achiang: so right now, yes, that's expected behaviour
[07:33] <cjwatson> it's not how I ultimately want it to be
[07:33] <achiang> cjwatson: was that possible with grub1?
[07:33] <cjwatson> achiang: I've purged my memories of grub1
[07:33] <achiang> heh.
[07:34] <Sarvatt> the intel ones that dont work are odd
[07:34] <Sarvatt> [    3.075685] fb: conflicting fb hw usage inteldrmfb vs VESA VGA - removing generic driver
[07:34] <Sarvatt> [    3.075722] Console: switching to colour dummy device 80x25
[07:34] <Sarvatt> [    3.528337] Console: switching to colour frame buffer device 128x37
[07:34] <cjwatson> achiang: grub2 does try to turn off the cursor - grep for grub_term_setcursor
[07:35] <achiang> cjwatson: thanks
[07:35] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: my working system shows that too
[07:35] <cjwatson> that just means the KMS driver is replacing vesafb
[07:36] <Sarvatt> the screen stays blank after that, and I can't do anything but use sysrq
[07:37] <Sarvatt> well, it goes grub - vesa fb (i see splash here at 640x480) - screen turns off, turns back on with a blank black screen - stuck unless I press escape fast enough before X starts
[07:37] <cjwatson> that means that the KMS driver is failing to go VESA->native.  Matthew Garrett did warn us that it was likely that that would happen in some cases, although said it was still worth us giving it a try
[07:38] <cjwatson> we need to be figuring out how to upstream those bugs effectively
[07:40] <Sarvatt> i think udev might need some fixing to not assume vesafb means the actual graphics device modules were added too, since when it does kind of work (nouveau) it doesn't even try to load nouveau before X starts and the DDX ends up loading it every time here
[07:43] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: no reason for that to be in udev; any such interpretation of udev events belongs in higher layers IMO
[07:44] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: and then, it's necessary to think about how this ties in with splash screen requirements in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-m-grub2-boot-framebuffer
[07:48] <Sarvatt> so you want xf86LoadKernelModule() to actually work? if you build all the agp modules into the kernel it *might* but that's still going to be a nightmare of racyness
[07:57] <Sarvatt> outside of intel that always uses intel_agp theres no way to ensure the platform agp driver gets loaded before drm which is required otherwise since drm can't depend on the platform agp modules, there are all kinds of bugs about that one. we're probably the only distro not building those into the kernel now and its expected for them to be unable to be built as modules soon
[07:57] <cjwatson> Sarvatt: I don't understand how you got there from what I said
[07:58] <Sarvatt> letting x load the video modules pretty much guarantees drm won't work the first start after boot
[07:58] <cjwatson> but that wasn't what I said.
[07:58] <tjaalton> Sarvatt: iirc airlied wanted to make the modules mandatory in the kernel
[07:58] <Sarvatt> ah sorry, what do you mean by higher layers then?
[07:58] <cjwatson> upstart
[07:58] <cjwatson> or upstart jobs, more accurately
[07:59] <cjwatson> if you special-case it in udev then you can't deal with machines that only have vesafb
[08:00] <Sarvatt> gotcha, sorry, I thought you meant you wanted X to load them like is happening now
[08:00] <cjwatson> not at all
[08:00] <cjwatson> or rather, I don't have the necessary expertise to offer an opinion either way there
[08:01] <cjwatson> have our kernel team given a reason for building agp modular, or is it something that hasn't come up?
[08:05] <Sarvatt> never gotten an answer outside of not wanting to build things in that could be modular, i've brought it up on the list and in bugs a bunch of times but couldn't make it to UDS to discuss it there
[08:06] <Sarvatt> just curious, what gpu do you have that works?
[08:06] <Sarvatt> it worked with efifb before too unlike all of mine
[08:19] <cjwatson> intel
[08:19] <cjwatson> mjg59 was very clear that we must not use efifb
[08:19] <cjwatson> (on non-EFI systems, anyway)
[08:20] <cjwatson> sorry, specifically a GM965, specifically 8086:2a02 rev 0c
[08:21] <cjwatson> I've only had a relatively small number of regression reports so far; before you, most of them were on Radeon cards
[08:22] <Sarvatt> thanks, was wondering because you didn't have problems last time with the gfxpayload=keep either. i don't have anything with a GMA x3100/GL960 like yours
[08:23] <Sarvatt> the bugs are getting filed against x since it isn't starting up is probably why, I just saw your post and will try to move things over to grub2 as I see them
[08:23] <cjwatson> no!
[08:23] <cjwatson> they're not grub2 bugs.  the kernel needs to fix them, aiui
[08:24] <cjwatson> if you reassign them to grub2 I'll just have to reassign them away again. :)
[08:24] <Sarvatt> alrighty :) well here's one - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/606244
[08:24] <cjwatson> I suggested that people file new bugs on grub2 so that I can look them over, but if they're already filed somewhere appropriate then reassigning them to grub2 is a waste of effort
[08:24] <cjwatson> maybe tag them grub-gfxpayload or something
[08:25] <Sarvatt> will do
[15:41] <rsavoye> slacker_nl: the sources for brasero in bzr don't match the same sources I get with apt-get
[15:41] <rsavoye> oops, slangasek  the sources for brasero in bzr don't match the same sources I get with apt-get
[15:41] <rsavoye> silly tab completion...
[16:03] <rsavoye> slangasek: also the axis2c in bzr appears to also be out of sync with the source tarball
[16:43] <dupondje> anyone noted that grub2 isn't counting down sometimes ?!
[16:45] <SevenMachines> dupondje: i think i get this the next boot after going to recovery mode
[16:46] <SevenMachines> i didnt check, i just thought about it in passing
[16:47] <dupondje> it could be after a unclean shutdown also it seems indeed
[16:48] <SevenMachines> it could have been that, that might of been why i booted into recovery :)
[16:50] <dupondje> lets hope https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/606244 is fixed asap :) most crappy bug atm :)
[16:52] <SevenMachines> luckily/sadly, its all quite boring over here. you wouldnt notice it was in development if it wasnt for the host of updates every day
[16:52] <SevenMachines> though i may have just cursed things by saying that out loud :)
[16:53] <dupondje> well its the first real bug I noted since dev of maverick started :)
[16:54] <SevenMachines> X crashes are fun :)
[17:00] <SevenMachines> well, now i've finally found a working sasl plugin for xchat.... i'm off for the weekend!
[19:17] <maxwellian> Can anyone tell me how to add a .desktop file to a package?  The packaging guide tells me where it should end up, but I don't know how to get it there.
[19:18] <maxwellian> Errr, sorry, I think this is the wrong channel.  Going to -motu.
[19:18] <shadeslayer> maxwellian: uh.. make a patch?
[19:18] <maxwellian> Oh, sweet.
[19:18] <shadeslayer> not sure .. but thats i would do
[19:18] <maxwellian> shadeslayer: Well before you make a patch, you change something that patch can report...right? :)
[19:19] <shadeslayer> there might be some debhelper magic that lets you put files in debian/ and then carry ot over
[19:19] <shadeslayer> maxwellian: not necessarily ;)
[19:19] <shadeslayer> oh.. i think
[19:19] <nigelb> maxwellian: you want to know how to create a new .desktop file?
[19:19] <shadeslayer> maxwellian: what can also be done is to make a file in debian/ and then add a cp command to rules
[19:20] <maxwellian> nigelb: Yes.  I have the file, I just want to add it to the package so it gets installed.
[19:20] <maxwellian> shadeslayer: I've seen that done, but the rules file as it stands is very terse.  I'm new to packaging, but most of the stuff seems to be handled automatically CDBS.
[19:21] <nigelb> sheslayer, who just turned evil, guided you right
[19:21] <nigelb> *shadeslayer
[19:21]  * maxwellian trembles
[19:22] <evilshadeslayer> muwhahaha :D
[19:23] <maxwellian> This is the current rules file: http://paste.ubuntu.com/465111/
[19:23] <maxwellian> It doesn't say anything about the install process, just after installing.  I guess the rest is implied somehow.
[19:24] <maxwellian> Ack, sorry, there were a couple of includes at the top as well.
[19:24] <Amaranth> maxwellian: stick a `mkdir -p debian/plt-scheme/usr/share/applications && cp debian/foo.desktop debian/plt-scheme/usr/share/applications` in the binary-post-install/plt-scheme:: section
[19:25] <Amaranth> maxwellian: or a similar binary-post-install section for whatever package needs the .desktop file
[19:25]  * evilshadeslayer was about to say taht
[19:26] <Amaranth> I wonder why they remove the files then remove the directory instead of just doing rm -rf
[19:27] <maxwellian> Wow, a consensus even. :)  Okay, great, thanks.  I'm a noob and it's hard to figure out how to go from the simple examples in the packaging guide to dealing with real packages.
[19:27] <maxwellian> Amaranth: Dunno.  This would be the third time that a .desktop file has been added to this package, so something screwy is going on somewhere. :P
[19:27] <cjwatson> cdbs' greatest weakness is that it's hard to see how to extend it, and the syntax for extensions isn't particularly regular
[19:28] <Amaranth> cjwatson: dh 7 has the same problem
[19:28] <Amaranth> It sure does make things simple when you know how it works though
[19:28] <cjwatson> Amaranth: it does not have the latter problem.  The syntax for extensions is regular
[19:29] <maxwellian> cjwatson: When you say "extensions" you mean something beyond daily use, right?
[19:29] <Amaranth> Oh, right, I meant how to extend it
[19:29] <cjwatson> maxwellian: I mean things like binary-post-install/* rule
[19:29] <cjwatson> s
[19:29] <Amaranth> It's hard to figure out how to go from a one line makefile that does everything to something useful :)
[19:29] <cjwatson> there's some documentation in /usr/share/doc/cdbs/cdbs-doc.html
[19:29] <maxwellian> Amaranth: Exactly!!
[19:30] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Thanks, I will check that out.
[19:30] <maxwellian> cjwatson: So it's not faux pas to do more install stuff in the "post-install" section? :P
[19:30] <cjwatson> cf. http://kitenet.net/~joey/talks/debhelper/debhelper-slides.pdf
[19:31] <cjwatson> maxwellian: why not just put 'debian/foo.desktop usr/share/applications' in debian/foo.install?  that's more idiomatic
[19:32] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Yes, that kind of idiom to add a file is something I've seen, but then there were several other lines that only had one path in them.
[19:32] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Like /usr/bin
[19:32] <cjwatson> man dh_install
[19:32] <cjwatson> for the syntax of that file
[19:32] <cjwatson> similarly man dh_installdirs for the syntax of debian/*.dirs, etc.
[19:33] <cjwatson> 'man debhelper' has an index
[19:33] <cjwatson> Amaranth: (appendix B of that slide deck is what I'm referring to, in particular)
[19:34] <Amaranth> Wow, I forgot all about the .install file trick
[19:34] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Yeah, I've read the man page for dh_install, but it says that each line contains a file or files to install, and where to install them.
[19:34] <Amaranth> Too much magic :)
[19:34] <maxwellian> cjwatson: But then the example simply list destination paths, without specifying what goes there.
[19:34] <cjwatson> maxwellian: read the section under --autodest
[19:35] <Amaranth> maxwellian: If you stick /usr/bin in there it'll include everything the package wants to install to /usr/bin
[19:35] <nigelb> g33
[19:35] <nigelb> grr
[19:35] <cjwatson> (including the last sentence, which applies even if that option isn't given)
[19:37] <maxwellian> Amaranth: Unless I'm reading the page wrong, it's saying that /usr/bin would be the source file, and that it's destination would be automatically determined.
[19:37] <Amaranth> Wow, someone needs to turn that slide deck in to a wiki page for documentation
[19:38] <Amaranth> maxwellian: Eh, I forget, haven't looked in a while
[19:38] <Amaranth> maxwellian: That's probably right
[19:39] <vish> Amaranth: hi, got a min to review an alacarte patch?
[19:40] <maxwellian> Amaranth: Thanks though.  I shouldn't have taken so much time in here, but when so much is done automatically it's hard to figure out where the magic is happening and how to change something. :P
[19:40] <Amaranth> vish: It's not really maintained anymore, I think someone else was taking over on the GNOME side for a while
[19:40] <Amaranth> vish: If you mean to add to the ubuntu package you'll want to talk to the folks on the desktop team
[19:41] <vish> Amaranth: oh , ok..
[19:41] <Amaranth> vish: Although if I was maintaining it and the patch adds UI I'd reject it :)
[19:41] <cjwatson> Amaranth: it's basically all in the man pages
[19:42] <vish> Amaranth: not UI , the drag n drop: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=608221
[19:42] <Amaranth> vish: GNOME 3.0 won't include alacarte so it's not really important anyway
[19:43] <vish> Amaranth: hmm , the patch is on LP too.. not sure what to do with it.. Bug #395692 , seb128 is the best person to decide?
[19:43] <Amaranth> vish: yeah, see if seb128 will add it to the ubuntu package
[19:44] <dupondje> cjwatson: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/606244 seems like caused by grub2 video mode setting?
[19:44] <vish> Amaranth: could you make a comment about that.. I'll talk to seb128 , else its tough to catch you again ;)
[19:44] <Amaranth> vish: I don't even remember what that code was doing
[19:44] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Is there a way besides building the whole package to test if the .desktop file gets installed properly?  This build on my machine is taking a couple of hours. :\  (I'm just hoping against hope there's a better way.)
[19:45] <cjwatson> maxwellian: if you've already got to the end of the build, you can rerun individual debhelper commands with DH_VERBOSE=1
[19:45] <cjwatson> so DH_VERBOSE=1 dh_install # or whatever
[19:45] <maxwellian> cjwatson: So that would just try the install part, and I could see if the file ended up where it should?
[19:46] <cjwatson> dupondje: already had a discussion with Sarvatt about that earlier today - grub2 video mode setting is the proximate cause, yes, although it's still a kernel bug
[19:46] <cjwatson> maxwellian: right
[19:46] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Awesome, thanks for your time.
[19:46] <cjwatson> with DH_VERBOSE=1 it'll echo the commands it runs
[19:46] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Right, good for debugging.
[19:46] <vish> Amaranth: cool , alteast a comment that it aint maintained upstream would do.. :)
[19:46] <cjwatson> in fact, when you're working on this kind of thing, it's often useful to just do a full build under DH_VERBOSE=1, and then you can retroactively inspect the whole log
[19:46] <dupondje> cjwatson: héhé ok :) thx for the info
[19:46] <cjwatson> if you're making several changes
[19:47] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Yes, that would have been a good idea.  Help me to get a sense of all the magic being done for me automatically!
[19:47] <cjwatson> I used that when converting grub2 from CDBS to dh recently
[19:47] <cjwatson> that was quite a difficult conversion job
[19:48] <maxwellian> cjwatson: I don't doubt it.  It seems to me that CDBS is using debhelper in this case, but I don't know.
[19:48] <cjwatson> yes
[19:48] <cjwatson> CDBS is a system of Makefile fragments wrapping debhelper
[19:49] <maxwellian> cjwatson: So the conversion to debhelper means...unwrapping it?
[19:49] <cjwatson> what I'm loosely referring to as "dh" is a system with similar expressive power to CDBS built into newer versions of debhelper
[19:49] <cjwatson> man dh
[19:50] <cjwatson> essentially trying to replicate the good bits of CDBS while avoiding at least some of its design flaws
[19:50] <maxwellian> cjwatson: Oh, sorry...I thought that was just an abbreviation for all of the dh_* commands.
[19:50] <cjwatson> anyway, this isn't terribly relevant to you if you're just extending an existing CDBS package
[19:50] <hyperair> cjwatson: i think dh7 is the more commonly used term, to avoid confusion.
[19:51] <maxwellian> cjwatson: It's very relevant to me, since I would like to be competent at working with packages in general at some point.  Again, thanks a lot for your time, it saves me a lot of head scratching.
[19:54] <cjwatson> hyperair: also confusable with debhelper 7 in general, unfortunately
[19:54] <cjwatson> I guess dh(1) is unambiguous
[19:55] <hyperair> maxwellian: most (including me) would recommend using dh7 over cdbs, considering how poor cdbs documentation is that you'll need a high level of make-fu and the ability to read CDBS's makefile fragments while maintaining sanity.
[19:56] <cjwatson> also dh(1) use is growing more or less linearly right now while cdbs use is stagnant
[19:56] <hyperair> cjwatson: but dh(1) is the single most prominent feature of debhelper 7, so it's almost certain that you're referring to that feature when you say dh7. =p
[19:56] <cjwatson> mm
[20:02] <slangasek> rsavoye: neither axis2c nor brasero are in the import failure list; which bzr branch are you grabbing, and which release are you downloading from with apt-get source?


[00:08] <sysadmin> my thin-clients aren't accepting passwords for login, IIRC , there was some command to resync keys or something?? (help!)
[00:09] <LaserJock> sysadmin: ltsp-ssh something, just do ltsp- and hit Tab
[00:09] <sysadmin> it just beeps
[00:16] <LaserJock> when you do it after ltsp- ?
[00:16] <sysadmin> ltsp-update-sshkeys worked, thanks
[00:18] <sysadmin> i needed to hit tab 2x
[02:55] <ace_suares> http://www.suares.an/ltsp-build-client-apt-mirror
[04:37] <yotux> thin client not booting anyone offer ideas
[04:37] <kgoetz>  why isnt it booting?
[04:38] <yotux> it gets to the pxe stage and edubuntu splash scrren
[04:38] <yotux> then it goes to a black screen with a flashing hash mark
[04:38] <yotux> fresh install 7.10
[04:39] <yotux> thinking I should down grade to 7.04 or even 6.06.1
[04:39] <kgoetz> not sure, hang around and hopefully someone willb e able to help
[04:54] <johnny> you get a splash screen?
[04:54] <johnny> i didn't know the thin clients got splash screens
[04:54] <johnny> lol
[04:55] <johnny> yotux, try disabling it so you see what happens before
[05:02] <yotux2> is there an issue with using a dhcp client and server on a ltsp server?
[05:02] <johnny> don't think so
[05:03] <yotux2> I have seen things about two dhcp servers
[05:03] <yotux2> I had one of my nics using dhcp and my thin client would not boot
[05:03] <yotux2> set static ips and things seem to be good now
[05:03] <johnny> yes..two dhcp servers could cause a problem
[05:04] <yotux2> yeah wonder is this a possible bug?
[05:04] <yotux2> fresh install my eth0 was assigned dhcp during install
[05:05] <yotux2> my thin client would not boot hung on black screen after edubuntu splash
[05:57] <nixternal> congrats on the Macedonian schools rollout everybody!
[11:38] <ace_suares> I am trying to use thin-client-manager, i did apt-get to install it, but I can not find it in the menu
[11:38] <ace_suares> do you knwo how to start it ? Alt-F2 thin-client-manager doesn't work...
[11:40] <stgraber> ace_suares: student-control-panel
[11:41] <stgraber> but you need to run it as root
[11:41] <stgraber> so : gksudo student-control-panel
[11:41] <ace_suares> oh.... it kept its old name them :-)
[11:41] <ace_suares> but it's not in the menu ? stange, I expected it to be under 'administration' and to ask for rootpass first...
[11:42] <ace_suares> thx
[11:48] <ace_suares> ogra ?
[12:51] <gamed|ph> hi, weiß jemand wieso mir beim ltsp-client nicht das gnome-panel angezeigt wird? kann das daran liegen dass ich den client momentan nur in vmware teste?
[12:57] <stgraber> that's weird, is a session opened with that same user on another client ?
[12:58] <stgraber> weird things happen when the same user is connected at two places at the same time
[13:03] <gamed|ph> mh, i can create a new user and then test again
[13:09] <gamed|ph> mh, same problem
[13:10] <gamed|ph> the gnome-panel loads for a short time and then it will close before i can open something like firefox
[13:20] <gamed|ph> mh, i'll test it monday on a real maschine...
[20:10] <johnny> sbalneav, did you get my message here yesterday?
[22:32] <EightiesK> !wireless
[22:32] <ubotu> Wireless documentation can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs


[03:03] <bluesabre> JackFrost: That's unpleasant.
[03:03] <JackFrost> That's some seriously bad crap..
[03:04] <JackFrost> bluesabre: I spoke up in #canonical-sysadmin
[03:04] <bluesabre> JackFrost: much appreciated.
[03:05] <JackFrost> Kudos go to tomreyn for getting this handled last time, seems Canonical is having a bad time right now...
[03:05] <bluesabre> Is it just our server(s?) or more widespread?
[03:06] <JackFrost> Likely just wp being terrible...
[03:06] <JackFrost> ANd outdated.
[03:08] <bluesabre> Oof.
[03:14] <genii> wordpress?
[03:19] <JackFrost> yeah.
[03:24] <JackFrost> Taking a look at the dev server, just to be on the safe side. :P
[04:12] <tomreyn> https://gf.dev/wordpress-security-scanner says it's WP 5.8.1. if correct, it would be potentially affected by two SQLi vulnerabilities. also, the 'openid' plugin hasn't seen much love lately.
[04:12] <JackFrost> I just updated staging.xubuntu.org and contest. to current, on openid and WP itself.
[04:16] <tomreyn> https://staging.xubuntu.org/wp-login.php prints a warning
[04:20] <JackFrost> Yep.
[04:20] <tomreyn> and contest has directory indexes enabled https://contest.xubuntu.org/wp-content/uploads/
[04:23] <JackFrost> Both do..
[04:25] <tomreyn> oh yes. alright, bedtime for me. hopefully tcuthbertcan's patches can get reviewed + merged soon.
[04:27] <JackFrost> tomreyn: Disabled, if someone wanted them on, well they can be turned back on.
[04:39] <tomreyn> quttera's url normalization is just terrible. they try to prevent you scanning the same site twice in half an hour, but just changing the url to upper case or adding "www." in front works around that.
[04:40] <tomreyn> and i just logged in to https://xubuntu.org/wp-admin/index.php using my tomreyn SSO user name - not sure i should be able to do so.
[04:42] <JackFrost> I don't have any powers there, I can only login because of xubuntu-team.
[04:46] <tomreyn> me neither, not that any are visible anyways (and i'm not going beyond that). the bed really calls now. ;-) ttyl.
[04:47] <JackFrost> Sleep well.
[21:16] <knome> tomreyn, i don't think there is a way to stop people from creating acounts and logging in to xubuntu.org (as subscribers) as we're using the openid login, but it's a long time i *actually* worked with this, so who knows if i misremember or something has changed since
[21:17] <knome> JackFrost, given the situation, would you like to be added to ~xubuntu-website to gain some power?
[22:48] <JackFrost> Well...Not precisely, but I guess yeah.
[22:49] <knome> pleia2, maybe you could grant JackFrost access to -website?)
[22:55] <tomreyn> knome: looks like the privileges granted to the average user logging in via SSO are very limited, so it probably doesn't really change much in terms of making it easier to escalate privileges from there (compared to no login)
[22:56] <knome> tomreyn, as i said, "subscriber", so basically it means they'll have an "account" registered, but that's about it
[22:56] <tomreyn> still, any user added this way seems to end up on the database, which could be a problem if the DB grows too large (e.g. due to a malfunctionaing spam bot) or privacy.
[22:56] <knome> as i see it, the main purpose of this is that maintainers can create posts that only registered users can see
[22:56] <tomreyn> oh "subscriber" is the role, sorry, i'm not so familiar with those.
[22:56] <knome> (ofc we don't use that functionality, but..)
[22:57] <knome> np
[22:57] <knome> well the spammers need to have launchpad accounts
[22:57] <knome> that limits it a bit
[22:57] <tomreyn> so the openid only works against this provider?
[22:58] <knome> again it's a long time since i've checked, but i'm pretty sure there is another (canonical created) plugin that limits it to launchpad, yes
[22:58] <knome> in a way or another
[22:58] <tomreyn> anyways, a mostly theoretical discussion at this point, and not the actual cause of these problems, i guess
[22:59] <knome> sure, i don't see this as a problem
[22:59] <knome> the revision history showed that the spammy edits were done by the "admin" (ID 1) user
[22:59] <knome> which is the easy target for spammers/hackers, since if user ID 1 exists, it's almost always an admin user
[22:59] <tomreyn> so it's possibly still the same problem as early december
[23:01] <knome> i think it's even on the WP website that if you want to "harden" your installation, you should add another user and remove the user ID 1 right after setting your site up
[23:01] <knome> because then automated attacks which try to use this knowledge to their benefit will simply fail
[23:02] <knome> ...but at least when xubuntu.org was set up, canonical didn't have that practice
[23:06] <tomreyn> i also remember reading this somewhere about wordpress basics
[23:06] <pleia2> yeah, let's see
[23:06] <tomreyn> also something about renaming the user
[23:08] <pleia2> I have done the thing
[23:09] <knome> pleia2, thank you! <3
[23:10] <knome> tomreyn, i don't think renaming the user helps, as its ID is still 1, which can be used for the attacks
[23:12] <knome> and if you create another user and delete the first one, you don't need to rename ;)
[23:12] <knome> (also, it's really handy to remove the first user as then you get rid of all the nonsense default content at once ;))
[23:13] <knome> (disclaimer: a sizeable amount of my work is understanding wordpress)
[23:20] <JackFrost> pleia2, knome: Thanks, I'll stay away from actually touching content. :>
[23:20] <pleia2> :)
[23:20] <pleia2> thanks for keeping an eye on things
[23:21] <JackFrost> ...I still hesitate to reboot that server. :P
[23:21] <JackFrost> knome: Speaking of which, I have admin on contest (IIRC?) but not staging.  Plz2fix?
[23:21] <pleia2> haha
[23:22] <pleia2> I'm around most weekdays during the day, just ping me to see if I'm around when you do a reboot in case of emergency ;D
[23:23] <JackFrost> Oh dear, it also emails you on reboots doesn't it?
[23:23] <pleia2> yeah
[23:24] <pleia2> I have monitoring on it, but it doesn't page me or anything (just email, I'll sleep through it :))
[23:24] <JackFrost> I try to do kernel reboots late so few people notice.
[23:25] <knome> JackFrost, i went ahead and gave you admin @staging, but... now i notice it's also using openid, so you should get all the admin powers with the -website membership
[23:26] <JackFrost> Ah, righty.