[03:43] <jsgotangco> jbailey, around?
[06:16] <MadpilotPPC> there's a docteam mtg at 1400Z, right?
[06:18] <robitaille> yep according to the schedule
[06:19] <MadpilotPPC> ack... 0700 our time... am *not* a morning person... ;)
[06:19] <thechitowncubs> Hey everyone
[06:19] <thechitowncubs> anyone here?
[06:19] <thechitowncubs> [[TableOfContents([maxdepth] )] ]
[06:20] <thechitowncubs> What would be an example of maxdepth
[06:20] <thechitowncubs> I'm trying to change this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
[06:20] <robitaille> the crowd waves at thechitowncubs  :)
[06:20] <thechitowncubs> but I can't seem to get the table to record my maxdepth option
[06:20] <MadpilotPPC> wiki markup... blarg...
[06:20] <robitaille> MadpilotPPC,   yeah 7am is a bad time for me.  Maybe tomorrow will be better since there is no school on friday due to that teacher strike....
[06:21] <thechitowncubs> 11:21 pm here
[06:21] <thechitowncubs> I want to fix this one thing before I go to bed.
[06:21] <thechitowncubs> It's been bugging me for a long time...
[06:21] <thechitowncubs> anyone have any ideas?
[06:22] <MadpilotPPC> thechitowncubs, I see what you mean; that's an ugly ToC
[06:22] <thechitowncubs> HEH
[06:23] <thechitowncubs> I'm trying to limit it to the app name
[06:23] <MadpilotPPC> what happens if you bump some of the subtitles down to just being bold, rather than being actual headers
[06:24] <thechitowncubs> that's an option, i'd rather use the maxdepth option, seems to be easy
[06:24] <MadpilotPPC> ... only if it works...
[06:24] <thechitowncubs> Ah, fixed.
[06:24] <thechitowncubs> had to remove []
[08:51] <mdke> jbailey, for when you get up, PM for ya
[09:03] <robitaille> jsgotangco,   I'm not too late to look at the release notes?  24 hours later, I'm finally free to look at them :)
[09:04] <jsgotangco> robitaille, zone out, its very much open season at the moment
[09:35] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  in the credit section, we have "contributors" for all the section, even the ones with only one guy listed.  Should I change them, or we are expected more names everywhere?
[09:35] <jsgotangco> credit?
[09:36] <robitaille> in the release notes, at the end there is a credit section
[09:37] <jsgotangco> what are you looking at
[09:38] <robitaille> gnome/releasenotes/C/release-notes.xml
[09:38] <robitaille> humm.. I guess I was reading the wrong one :)
[09:38] <jsgotangco> nooo
[09:38] <jsgotangco> breezy-release-notes.xml
[09:42] <robitaille> now I'm lost.  so it's not on the svn repo?
[09:42] <robitaille> but only at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/breezy/gnome/releasenotes/C/breezy-release-notes.xml
[09:45] <jsgotangco> it is
[09:45] <jsgotangco> that's the one
[09:49] <robitaille> ok I got it now..  I was a bit dense tonight...  maybe a sign that it is bed time soon :)
[09:50] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:50] <jsgotangco> the doc is almost done though just a few more things to add
[09:57] <robitaille> is "regulary" a word?  :)    (in the first line of what's new)
[09:58] <Kinnison> hi
[10:14] <robitaille> jsgotangco,   I'm going to bed.  The only 2 things in the breezy-release notes I noticed were that "regulary" typo in the what's new section, and section 2.4 is missing the actual installation instructions.  But I'm guessing the instructions are still to come
[10:14] <jsgotangco> robitaille, just the mandatory press enter or type server or oem thing
[10:16] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  how about inserting the CD first :)
[10:16] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:16] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:17] <jsgotangco> i'll work on it tonight then send to list for reviews
[10:17] <robitaille> sounds good.  good night
[10:42] <rob^> is it worth having a meeting today?
[10:43] <MadpilotPPC> at oh-God-hundred hours?
[10:44] <rob^> yar
[10:44] <MadpilotPPC> I'm not going to make it, I'm afraid...
[10:44] <rob^> I noticed the agenda page hasn't been updated, because theres really not much to talk about at the moment
[10:45] <MadpilotPPC> 1400Z = 0700 local, it's currently 0130 local, I'm four beer down and I work at 0900. 0700 meetings are right out for me... ;)
[10:45] <rob^> the meeting is at midnight friday here
[10:58] <jsgotangco> rob^, lol
[10:58] <rob^> :)
[10:59] <jsgotangco> we made the meeting at 14:00 for our special friend the aussies
[10:59] <rob^> such as me
[10:59] <jsgotangco> (friday as well)
[10:59] <jsgotangco> but the canucks doesn't seem to favor it at all
[10:59] <jsgotangco> rob^, we need to rebuild
[10:59] <rob^> 1400 doesn't bother me, friday is good though
[10:59] <jsgotangco> we're the only active writers atm
[10:59] <rob^> yeah ;(
[10:59] <jsgotangco> along with jjesse
[11:00] <rob^> maybe we need to make it easier for people to help
[11:00] <rob^> I noticed the odd person offering help on the list
[11:00] <jsgotangco> odd?
[11:00] <jsgotangco> we'll get creamed in dapper if we don't get our act together
[11:00] <rob^> odd, as in occasional
[11:01] <jsgotangco> au english *grr*
[11:01] <rob^> aussie enlglish
[11:01] <rob^> heh
[11:01] <rob^> english
[11:01] <rob^> I was tempted to do an aussie slang translation of the faq guide but didn't get time :)
[11:02] <MadpilotPPC> English is a wonderful language, but it's not actually spoken in England and everyone thinks their version is the "proper" version... ;)
[11:02] <jsgotangco> rob^, what is your vision of doc work in dapper
[11:02] <MadpilotPPC> rob^, I've been kicking around the idea of a .ca slang one, in time for UBZ, as a joke... ;)
[11:03] <jsgotangco> MadpilotPPC, are you doing an all-nighter?
[11:03] <rob^> well for one thing I think it would be easier to discuss at ubz in person
[11:03] <MadpilotPPC> jsgotangco, no, I'm off to bed very, very soon, it's just on 0200 here
[11:03] <rob^> but I can't swim that far :P
[11:04] <jsgotangco> same here i could probably swim to your place though if i start this weekend
[11:04] <rob^> heh you and I would be the docteam meeting
[11:05] <jsgotangco> rob^, MadpilotPPC we still need a plan though
[11:05] <rob^> umm well now that we have an faq it won't take much to update it come dapper
[11:06] <rob^> I think we should now work on getting the user guide up to scratch
[11:06] <jsgotangco> are you really satisfied with the faq atm
[11:06] <rob^> well about as satisfied as I can be
[11:07] <rob^> given the time restraint
[11:08] <rob^> I'd like to have the kubuntu one done too
[11:09] <rob^> I think we can still have a cost effective faq, but there are two or three pages that need to be separate for Ubuntu and Kubuntu
[11:11] <rob^> I do think these string freezes are bad for keeping the docteam together though
[11:11] <jsgotangco> string freeze ain't bad what's bad is that no one's writing
[11:12] <rob^> I think its because no one really can at the moment
[11:12] <rob^> before breezy is released there is no point trying to document an os that doesn't yet exist
[11:12] <rob^> as it was several late changed had to go through for the faq guide
[11:13] <jsgotangco> i disagree we have rolling milestones
[11:13] <rob^> changes*
[11:13] <rob^> maybe, but how can one write a faq guide or userguide about dapper at the moment?
[11:14] <jsgotangco> like i said we have rolling milestones
[11:14] <jsgotangco> oh you can't atm really
[11:14] <jsgotangco> but you know have your breezy
[11:14] <rob^> likelyhood is that not much will happen until after ubz, when plans have been put into place for dapper
[11:14] <jsgotangco> rob^, oh no writing actually happens even after ubz
[11:14] <jsgotangco> but it doesn't mean you won't plan
[11:15] <rob^> I'm talking real work though
[11:15] <jsgotangco> a week or two after ubz dapper uploads will happen
[11:15] <rob^> jsgotangco, yes thats what I meant
[11:18] <rob^> I think one thing that would help is being able to upload new ubuntu-docs updatesafter release
[11:19] <jsgotangco> yes that's what me and jbailey have talked about
[11:19] <jsgotangco> making sure docs are uplodaed for every milestone
[11:19] <jsgotangco> even if its just WIP
[11:19] <rob^> yes, thats a good start, one that I agree with
[11:20] <rob^> its a pitty we cant have things translated after Ubuntu/Kubuntu release though
[02:14] <jbailey> mdke: I could only wish it were PM when I woke up ;)
[03:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> does anyone know how big the doc svn repo is?
[03:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> iv downloaded what feels like a lot of stuff for doco :)
[04:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. 197M of doco. nice effort ppl :O
[05:07] <jsgotangco> gahhh i totally forgot about 1400
[05:10] <jsgotangco> err anyone awake?
[05:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> yeh, but whats 1400 :?
[05:11] <jsgotangco> i got caught in a huge traffic jam and it was raining so hard
[05:11] <jsgotangco> the main streets were flooded
[05:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> nice effort :O
[05:11] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: supposed to be docteam meeting (regular)
[05:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> oh. now?
[05:11] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: i was literally driving for 3 hours on floods
[05:12] <jsgotangco> and my little car was my hero of the day
[05:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> awsome :D
[05:12] <jsgotangco> i shouldht have gone to the pub
[05:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> we just got drizzel here ;)
[05:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> i have to start sifting bugzilla to see which of my 'bugs' have/havent been dealt with
[05:13] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> and i havent finished tearing breezys help apart yet, so ill be in bugzilla for a long time :(
[05:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> then i have to deal with tehm :S
[05:14] <jsgotangco> heh what is there to tear apart
[05:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> jsgotangco: are you any good with regex?
[05:14] <jsgotangco> no
[05:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. ok. ill keep poking grep then :(
[05:15] <jsgotangco> jbailey is your daddy
[05:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> re bugs, im going through the 'unnoffical guide' one page at a time trying to find errors, since its fairly important if it does end up going into breezy+1 (which iirc was in question?)
[05:16] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: yes
[05:16] <jsgotangco> we'd like to build on it in the future
[05:16] <jsgotangco> its nice you've looked ahead
[05:16] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, pls note that in the docteam repo, "trunk" is out of date, the breezy stuff is to be found in branches/breezy
[05:16] <jsgotangco> hey mdke
[05:17] <jsgotangco> mdke: sorry for the death of our meeting, i got caught in a very bad traffic jam
[05:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: i just finished the svn update, i havent had much chance to realy look at it, but thanks for the heads up
[05:20] <jbailey> jsgotangco: Eh? =)
[05:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> jbailey: your good with regex?
[05:23] <jbailey> Kamping_Kaiser: I'm not a master, no.
[05:23] <mdke> jsgotangco, i couldn't make it either mate
[05:23] <jbailey> Not an apprentice anymore, though. =)
[05:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> then your better then me :)
[05:23] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, the instructions on the wiki refer to downloading the "trunk" which is our normal working copy
[05:23] <mdke> however they dont include some changes which we made to the breezy branch after we branched it off
[05:23] <mdke> hope this clarifies things
[05:24] <jsgotangco> hi jbailey
[05:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> sort of mdke. what would be different in what i have from svn (from the wiki) and the branch? do i have to do something special to get it?
[05:24] <jbailey> Kinnison: Hey darlin'
[05:24] <jsgotangco> hi Kinnison
[05:25] <Kamping_Kaiser> jbailey: the reason i ask -> grep ^.+ testfile <- isnt doing what i thought it did (list every line with characters in it)
[05:29] <jsgotangco> mdke: got to talk to sabdfl a few hours ago, said he's gonna start writing too
[05:38] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, you can check out the breezy branch by substituting "trunk" with "branches/breezy"
[05:38] <mdke> jsgotangco, cool
[05:38] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: thanks. ill try it
[05:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: will the breezy branch be as large as trunk?
[05:39] <mdke> yep
[05:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. ok. could i download it over the top of trunk? i asume i can?
[05:40] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, either delete trunk or download it to another location
[05:40] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. thanks
[05:40] <mdke> ok jbailey, ping?
[05:42] <jbailey> This client really sucks.  It doesn't highlight on jbailey,
[05:42] <mdke> heh
[05:42] <jbailey> I wonder how many, I miss...
[05:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> heh
[05:42] <mdke> jbailey, got a moment, i'll show you what I mean with that faqguide translation stuff
[05:43] <Kinnison> jbailey: what client?
[05:48] <mdke> jbailey, yeah cool I can fix it
[05:53] <jbailey> Kinnison: irssi-text
[05:53] <jbailey> mdke: Sure, sorry.  Got lagged trying to make my laptop boot
[05:53] <mdke> heh
[05:54] <Kinnison> jdub: Odd, mine works fine
[05:54] <mdke> jbailey, i have fixed de and sr
[05:54] <Kinnison> urgh
[05:54] <Kinnison> I can type
[05:54] <Kinnison> jbailey: odd, mine works fine
[05:54] <jbailey> mdke: Ooo, what did it take?
[05:54] <jbailey> Kinnison, hmm
[05:54] <jbailey> jbailey, hmm
[05:54] <mdke> removing some duplicate strings
[05:54] <Kinnison> jbailey: shiny?
[05:55] <mdke> jbailey, if you want to see a simple example: svn up in faqguide/de then run "xml2po -e -p de.po ../C/faqguide.xml > faqguide.xml
[05:55] <mdke> i'll upload the fixes in a moment
[05:55] <jbailey> mdke: So who's broken.  The translator, rosetta, or poxml? =)
[05:55] <mdke> jbailey, rosetta I think
[05:55] <mdke> heh
[05:56] <mdke> possibly xml2po tho
[06:01] <jsgotangco> the translatations seem to be truncated?
[06:03] <mdke> no
[06:03] <mdke> there are some duplicate msgid's
[06:03] <mdke> caused by merges in rosetta
[06:03] <mdke> that stop xml2po
[06:04] <jsgotangco> right
[06:04] <mdke> ok i've fixed pt, de and sr
[06:04] <mdke> ro has major issues
[06:05] <jsgotangco> ugghhh
[06:05] <jsgotangco> wish i could help but translations are way out of my league
[06:05] <jsgotangco> unless you just want me to edit/delete the extras?
[06:06] <jbailey> jsgotangco: What, you don't speak Romanian? =)
[06:06] <mdke> heh
[06:06] <jsgotangco> Pri Ubuntu
[06:06] <mdke> i'll need to bash jordi and dand's heads together to figure it out
[06:07] <mdke> anyhow jbailey, the fixes are uploaded for those 3 languages
[06:07] <jsgotangco> jbailey: i've been improving in esperanto though
[06:10] <jbailey> mdke: Nice, thanks.
[06:26] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:32] <Kamping_Kaiser> ping? anyone about? how big is the doc team?
[06:34] <mdke> not very
[06:34] <mdke> participation varies
[06:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> so would it be this room +50%? or is it *very* dynamic in participation
[06:35] <mdke> very
[06:35] <mdke> you can't put a number on it
[06:36] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. was just wondering. thanks :)
[06:36] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc is not a bad start though
[06:36] <mdke> plus jbailey
[06:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. i should re create my wiki account. my name isnt set up for a wikiname :/
[06:37] <mdke> i have two wikinames
[06:38] <mdke> i rock
[06:38] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol. showoff :P
[06:38] <mdke> they are the same though
[07:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> whew. finished the 'unnoffial' quick guide
[07:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> only things i skipped were CC and GNU FDL :|
[07:13] <jordi> mdke: hey.
[07:53] <jordi> but I don't see this in de.po?
[07:54] <jordi> and the file compiles ok
[07:54] <jordi> or are these files corrected by you and you want me to upload?
[07:55] <mdke> jordi, that is correct
[07:55] <mdke> which spammers?
[07:59] <jordi> in general :)
[07:59] <jordi> they think I'm ill and need medicines.
[08:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[08:00] <mdke> jordi, ah, ok. i saw that bug carlos posted. If you upload the corrected files I sent you, will it help?
[08:03] <Kinnison> ciao
[08:03] <mdke> hello/bye
[08:03] <Kinnison> bye :-)
[08:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: i just got the branch/breezy doco arm. its 30M smaller hten the trunk . could that be right?
[08:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> later mate :)
[08:04] <mdke> yes
[08:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> nice. so i have both :D up to date :D
[08:05] <mdke> cool
[08:06] <mdke> we will merge the changes back across to trunk at some stage
[08:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> so i should be looking at breezy to see whats got bugs or not?
[08:06] <jordi> mdke: I have no clue. Are there any changes in the file besides removing those obsolete strings?
[08:06] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, not really, since we can't fix them for breezy anyhow
[08:06] <mdke> jordi, no, none
[08:07] <jordi> mdke: you can upload them, can you?
[08:07] <mdke> jordi, i thought it was limited to translation teams only, but I can try
[08:08] <jordi> mdke: if you're the po owner (you are, right?), you should be able to do a "published upload"
[08:08] <mdke> jordi, boh :) I can upload the pot template, but I have never tried uploading a cc.po before
[08:08] <mdke> jordi, will any changes that have been done since the po file was downloaded be lost?
[08:09] <jordi> just go to the de directory inside the potemplate, and you'll see an "upload file" link.
[08:09] <mdke> k
[08:09] <jordi> mdke: I think so; nto entirely sure
[08:10] <jordi> actually no, rosetta data should take precedence
[08:11] <mdke> fingers crossed then
[08:11] <mdke> i'll try later
[08:11] <jordi> I can find out for sure :)
[08:11] <mdke> okay i'll check here before i do it then
[08:11] <mdke> dinner now
[08:11] <jsgotangco> dinner?
[08:11] <jsgotangco> wow
[08:11] <jsgotangco> its already 2am here
[08:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> 2 am? inda or somewhere like that
[08:18] <jordi> mdke: you'll be safe; read #lp
[08:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> night all. 4am is a healthy time to crash imo :D
[08:41] <mdke> jordi, i don't have permission to upload
[08:42] <jordi> mdke: how do you do template updates?
[08:42] <mdke> i upload them ok
[08:42] <jordi> mdke: don't worry. I'll handle.
[08:42] <mdke> jordi, merci
[08:42] <mdke> i tried at this page:
[08:42] <jordi> so I just have to add those three files you emailed?
[08:42] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/faqguide/de/+upload
[08:42] <jordi> what url exactly
[08:42] <jordi> ?
[08:43] <mdke> jordi, yeah those files I emailed
[08:43] <jordi> that gave you perm denied?
[08:43] <mdke> yep
[08:43] <jordi> maybe it's only for the german translators and admins then.
[08:46] <mdke> i think so
[10:05] <jordi> mdke: ping
[10:06] <mdke> jordi, hi
[10:13] <jordi> mdke: false alarm
[10:13] <jordi> I didn't find your email.
[10:13] <jordi> I think everything is good now.
[10:13] <mdke> thanks
[11:42] <jbailey> Eh.  Why are the DTDs at the top of ccbysa.xml and friends commmented out?


[03:32] <holstein> pietro10: we dont ship compisiting by default
[03:32] <holstein> i sometimes just use xcompmgr... or the one that xubuntu uses... the xfce default one
[03:32] <holstein> pietro10: you can use whatever you want from the ubuntu repos
[03:32] <pietro10> ok
[03:33] <pietro10> I was asking because I use the magnifiers in the compositors
[03:33] <pietro10> compiz enhanced zoom desktop or kwin zoom
[03:33] <pietro10> standalone screen magnifiers don't do what they do (magnify the entire screen) and orca has only been a giant, slow bugfest in my uses
[03:35] <pietro10> which is the xubuntu compositor?
[03:36] <holstein> pietro10: its in the xubuntu menu
[03:37] <holstein> i dont have it in front of me.. its not what you are looking for anyway
[03:37] <pietro10> ok
[09:34] <misterxyz> I have a problem with my ubuntu studio system(on acer aspire). There is sound on headphones and speakers simultaneously. Is there any way to fix that problem?
[10:41] <Inoki> Hi lads. Is there a way to associate everything web related to Chrome instead of FF in US 12.10? When I e.g. use Kupfer to open a link to a website it always opens Firefox instead of Chrome.
[10:47] <misterxyz> I have a problem with my ubuntu studio system(on acer aspire). There is sound on headphones and speakers simultaneously. Is there any way to fix that problem?
[10:59] <Inoki> misterxyz: ask on forums - a higher probability of getting a response.
[11:12] <misterxyz> ok thank you
[13:24] <zequence> Inoki: You need to set the default web browser
[13:25] <zequence> Inoki: In Settings Manager, you'll find "Preferred Applications"
[13:25] <zequence> misterxyz: That's unusual
[13:26] <zequence> misterxyz: You could ask on #alsa or #pulseaudio
[13:26] <zequence> misterxyz: It has to do with drivers and such, which is the same on all Linux platforms
[14:48] <studio-user390> тут по русски можно спрашивать?
[14:49] <smartboyhw> studio-user390, please speak English:D
[14:51] <studio-user390> я почти не знаю английского. Можно писать через переводчик?
[14:52] <studio-user390> I almost do not know English. You can communicate through an interpreter?
[14:52] <smartboyhw> studio-user390, eh hum I am not even sure we have a Russian here......
[14:57] <studio-user390> I solved the problem by yourself. Thank you for your attention.


[01:17] <n-iCe> hi guys, would you say lubuntu is the most lightweight distro out there? using a DE?
[01:17] <tsimonq2> n-iCe: I'm not sure, I would have to say building your own LFS and using ncurses and bash is the most lightweight. :P
[01:18] <tsimonq2> n-iCe: You can then install awesomewm and use very very VERY little resources
[01:18] <n-iCe> what do you use?
[01:18] <tsimonq2> (I'm joking, I hope you get my point, I'm pointing out your superlative :P)
[01:19] <tsimonq2> I'm half and half with LXQt and KDE Plasma
[01:21] <n-iCe> has lubuntu migrated to lxqr already?
[01:21] <n-iCe> qt*
[01:21] <tsimonq2> Nope not yet
[01:22] <n-iCe> I see
[01:22] <n-iCe> Was thinking in use archlinux
[08:29] <alocompsci_> Hi guys, trying to install Lubuntu on a mac (triple boot already e failed to install grub efi.
[08:30] <alocompsci_> After reading only apparently this error happens when there is no internet connection? So wifi drivers aren't working on the live usb
[17:32] <CrazyTux> hello, how much of an influence or control does Canonical or its policies have on Ubuntu derivatives like Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Mint etc
[17:32] <CrazyTux> ?
[17:35] <CrazyTux> is Lubuntu suitable for new laptops?


[06:42] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4541 Needs building
[07:15] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- sil2100, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4554 Proposed pocket (hirsute/python3.10). UNAPPROVED queue (hirsute/python3-stdlib-extensions, hirsute/python3.9)
[07:28] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- sil2100, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4554 Generating diffs
[07:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- sil2100, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4554 Ready to build (focal/python3.10). UNAPPROVED queue (focal/python3-stdlib-extensions, focal/python3.9)
[07:35] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- sil2100, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4554 Proposed pocket (focal/python3-stdlib-extensions, focal/python3.9). Ready to build (focal/python3.10)
[09:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4541 Successfully built
[10:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4556 Preparing packages
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[11:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4558 Generating diffs
[11:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4556 Generating diffs
[11:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4557 Generating diffs
[11:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4555 Generating diffs
[12:15] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4555 Pending binary packages
[14:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4557 Pending binary packages
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[14:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4555 Successfully built
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[15:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4558 Successfully built
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[17:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4556 Successfully built


[00:00] <philipballew> MarkDude, no can do today
[00:04] <MarkDude> ok philipballew
[00:04] <MarkDude> next time
[00:05] <philipballew> no worries
[01:08] <Darkwing-laptop> pleia2: ping
[01:26] <Darkwing-laptop> bkerensa: ping
[01:26] <bkerensa> Darkwing-laptop: hi
[01:26] <Darkwing-laptop> bkerensa: care for a PM?
[01:26] <bkerensa> Darkwing-laptop: I love a good PM
[02:06] <Darkwing-laptop> Well, looks like my time in California is almost at an end.
[02:06] <DonkeyHotei> WHAT??
[02:06] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah, got accepted to school in Indiana.
[02:07] <DonkeyHotei> well, at least it's not mississippi again
[02:07] <Darkwing-laptop> Hellz no.
[02:07] <Darkwing-laptop> lol
[02:07] <Darkwing-laptop> although, my kids are there
[02:07] <DonkeyHotei> in MS? they went back there?
[02:08] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah, me and the wife are divorced.
[02:08] <Darkwing-laptop> I'm going to school in Fort Wayne, IN and will be a lot closer to them.
[02:08] <DonkeyHotei> that i remember. i just didn't think THERE of all places
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah lol.
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> I have family there
[02:09] <DonkeyHotei> in MS??
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> Indiana.
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> The Ex is from Indiana
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> dammit
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> the ex is from Ms
[02:09] <DonkeyHotei> ohh
[02:09] <Darkwing-laptop> Looks like the Indiana Team is close to dead.
[02:10] <DonkeyHotei> don't be a stranger
[02:10] <DonkeyHotei> we've lost people to geography before
[02:10] <Darkwing-laptop> Yeah, I was still around when I was in MS :D
[02:11] <Darkwing-laptop> I'll be offline/online quite a bit over the next several months.
[02:11] <DonkeyHotei> i still have your number
[02:11] <Darkwing-laptop> Yup.
[02:11] <Darkwing-laptop> I'm going through a bunch of the moving stuff right now so I'm not up on how the ZaTab is doing.
[02:12] <Darkwing-laptop> But, I should be smoothing out in the next couple months.
[02:12] <DonkeyHotei> no worries
[02:12] <DonkeyHotei> i'm having a bit of a transition myself atm, but i'll check with rodrigo afterward
[02:13] <Darkwing-laptop> sweet. :D
[03:20] <philipballew> Fort Wayne is a nice area. Been there several times.
[18:13] <bkerensa> pleia2: does California print trifolds at all? =o these prices are intense
[18:14] <pleia2> we have berkeleylug do it (they accept donations from their lug members)
[18:14] <pleia2> they get them via vistaprint.com
[18:14] <bkerensa> I will check that now
[18:15] <pleia2> they have deals often
[18:16] <bkerensa> yeah vistaprint seems more reasonable then kinkos and local printers
[18:16] <bkerensa> do you know how long it takes them to print? I was going to order them myself next friday but I need them by like the 16th
[18:19] <pleia2> they take a while, you can do rush printing but then you pretty much lose any of the cost benefit
[18:20] <bkerensa> =/
[18:21] <bkerensa> hmm maybe I will ask the loco if they wanna chip in although some dont like the idea of paying out of pocket to print stuff that ultimately supports Canonical
[18:21] <bkerensa> =/
[18:33] <pleia2> bkerensa: it supports all companies who are deploying and supporting Ubuntu (Canonical is not the only one, by far)
[18:34] <pleia2> and more users is really good for all of us :)
[18:34] <bkerensa> I know :P but some people dont like the idea of corporations
[18:34] <bkerensa> including the person who made our brochure
[18:34] <bkerensa> :)
[18:34] <bkerensa> his caveat was he would never print any or distribute any because he thought we were just making MarkS richer
[18:34] <bkerensa> ;p
[18:34] <bkerensa> and I said ok :)
[18:35] <pleia2> he knows Mark loses money on Ubuntu, right?
[18:35] <pleia2> I don't really buy those claims that LoCos are Marketing departments for Canonical, the company *I* work for has Ubuntu deployments too, I make part of my paycheck from Ubuntu
[18:36] <pleia2> anyway, there is no changing the minds of some people, so I probably shouldn't try :)
[18:37] <bkerensa> I have used Ubuntu for years so I dont see it as promoting Canonical
[18:37] <bkerensa> :)
[18:37] <MarkDude> MArk S may do stuff to help himslef, but he does things to make it great for many
[18:37] <MarkDude> beyond just Ubuntu users also
[18:38] <bkerensa> pleia2: is there any winning to the RH fanboy complaint of Canonical/Ubuntu does not contribute to upstream? :)
[18:39] <bkerensa> I mean its unfounded
[18:39] <pleia2> bkerensa: no, there are statistics that back up both sides, don't bother
[18:40] <MarkDude> Its a no-win
[18:40] <MarkDude> to argue over it
[18:40] <MarkDude> Rh types miss that Ubunut does great publicity
[18:41] <MarkDude> on a level no one has done- or maybe could do
[18:41] <MarkDude> these people get involved in FOSS
[18:41] <MarkDude> THAT helps everyone
[18:41] <bkerensa> MarkDude: Its not only about publicity... Almost every patch or bug fixed benefits upstream unless we maintain the package in Ubuntu which is not very frequent
[18:42] <bkerensa> that means it goes to Debian and often goes all the way upstream
[18:42] <MarkDude> true
[18:42] <bkerensa> further... Transmission for instance... Fedora uses it right?
[18:42] <MarkDude> yep
[18:43] <MarkDude> with extra rh legal words....
[18:43] <bkerensa> Mainly developed by a Canonical employee
[18:43] <bkerensa> :)
[18:43] <bkerensa> with of course some contributors on the side
[18:43] <bkerensa> but if you donate money to transmissionbt.org it goes to the Canonical guy who has been developing it for years
[18:43] <pleia2> I don't like the discussion at all, the premise is a competitive, self-rightous "Us vs Them" and that is not awesome
[18:44] <MarkDude> MarkDude> Its a no-win
 to argue over it
[18:44]  * MarkDude agrees
[18:44] <bkerensa> I dont either :) but I dont like it being said that Ubuntu Community and Canonical do not contribute upstream or even "contribute very little"
[18:44] <MarkDude> there is some area of talking that helps
[18:44] <pleia2> bkerensa: just let it go
[18:45] <bkerensa> kk
[18:45] <MarkDude> *ignore it * Ben :)
[18:45] <bkerensa> peh :P
[18:45] <bkerensa> pleia2: how is Jelly Bean?
[18:45] <bkerensa> :)
[18:45] <pleia2> haven't used it!
[18:45] <bkerensa> wat!
[18:45] <MarkDude> if there is sumthin that is of mutuall help- thats the area to talk about :)
[18:45] <bkerensa> Your fiancee didnt go to I/O?
[18:45] <bkerensa> :D
[18:46] <pleia2> bkerensa: nope, he's not in the department that does such things
[18:46] <pleia2> he has it on his phone, but I don't use his phone ;)
[18:46] <bkerensa> If I knew they were giving away tablets and phones I would have tried to buy a ticket and go
[18:46] <MarkDude> Mike had some i/o swag last night at bbq
[18:46] <pleia2> they always give away tablets and phones at google i/o
[18:46] <bkerensa> What
[18:46] <bkerensa> every year?
[18:46] <pleia2> yes
[18:46] <bkerensa> >.<
[18:46] <bkerensa> to everyone?
[18:46] <pleia2> that's why people spend the $$ to go :P
[18:46] <MarkDude> always some 1st gen toys
[18:46] <MarkDude> everyone
[18:47] <bkerensa> MarkDude: Next year Im coming to sleep on your couch before I/O
[18:47] <MarkDude> sure bkerensa
[18:47] <bkerensa> heh
[18:47] <MarkDude> geeknic time
[18:47] <pleia2> bkerensa: you're welcome to stay here too, I live a block from Moscone
[18:47] <pleia2> my place is tiny, so you get the couch, but itnet7 can tell you it's not so bad :)
[18:48] <bkerensa> lol
[18:48] <bkerensa> pleia2: well we will see I hear they sold tickets out in 20 mins
[18:48] <bkerensa> so I would have to have money + luck
[18:49] <pleia2> bkerensa: yep
[18:55] <akk> Reading scrollback ... stats that back up both sides ... I never see Ubuntu people pointing to the stats supporting Ubuntu contributing upstream.
[18:56] <akk> If there are stats on that side, it wouldn't hurt to point to them (I agree on not continuing the argument or getting heated about it).
[18:56] <akk> I mean, as a longtime Ubuntu user (and I do think they're benefitting Linux) *I* have the strong impression most of it doesn't go upstream
[18:57] <akk> so if I do, a lot of non Ubuntu users do too.
[19:00] <pleia2> most of them are pretty hacked together, a known list of Ubuntu contributors whose email addresses are pulled from debian changelogs and other upstream projects, the redhat stats that started the whole conversation tend to focus on kernel
[19:00] <pleia2> and people who use their @ubuntu.com address to contribute to things (but some debian people have gotten angry about that http://sandrotosi.blogspot.com/2009/11/things-that-make-me-angry.html)
[19:00] <darthrobot> Title: [Sandro Tosi: Things that make me angry]
[19:01] <pleia2> and none of the stats ever included me (I'm not known for dev stuff, and I don't use my @ubuntu.com address for stuff outside Ubuntu)
[19:02] <akk> That's really weird, getting angry about submissions from @ubuntu.com. I don't get it.
[19:03] <akk> Sounds like the real issue is that Ubuntu doesn't track their developers submitting to upstream projects, and RH does.
[19:04] <akk> Might not be too hard to make a list of Canonical employees and the email addresses they use for upstream contributions, then count those as a start.
[19:04] <pleia2> yeah, RH is a big company and people are getting paid for the work, Ubuntu has a lot of community developers who don't get counted (like me) and I don't think Canonical is so strict about tracking and reporting all the work their employees do upstream
[19:05] <akk> (obviously not as interesting as counting contributions of all ubuntu members, but I guess it would be harder to cat-herd them all into listing their email addresses?)
[19:05] <pleia2> RH has almost 4000 employees, I think canonical has around 600 maybe
[19:05] <akk> A per-employee number would still be an interesting stat.
[19:06] <pleia2> I think as Canonical matures as a company they may start keeping better track, but it's tough to make that economical when you're small
[19:09] <pleia2> I don't know the true answer either way, and it's all so subjective once you really get talking about "value added to the open source world"
[20:56] <scientes> only 4000?
[20:57] <scientes> i would suspect more being they are a fortune 500 company
[20:57] <pleia2> http://investors.redhat.com/faq.cfm As of February 28, 2011 Red Hat had approximately 3,760 employees worldwide.
[20:57] <darthrobot> Title: [Red Hat, Inc. - Investor FAQs]


[05:17] <pitti> @all: Today's TB meeting needs to start earlier, at 1700 UTC
[05:18] <jbailey> Err, that's awfully short notice for a change, isn't it?
[05:19] <jbailey> Oh good, agenda doesn't concern me really anyway.
[06:55] <seb128> hey dholbach :)
[06:55] <dholbach> hey :)
[06:56] <\sh> huhu daniel :)
[06:56] <ogra> hoho dholbach
[06:56] <ivoks> howdy
[06:57] <ogra> dholbach, i added a mention of revu to the expanding universe goal, but didnt change the status
[06:58] <mdz> 2 minutes
[06:58] <ogra> dholbach, to make th eprogress visible
[06:59] <dholbach> ogra: excellent
[07:00] <mdz> good morning, everyone
[07:00] <mdz> waiting for sabdfl and Keybuk
[07:01] <ogra> :)
[07:01] <\sh> ogra: u made it? ,-)
[07:02] <Keybuk> (I'm almost entirely not present, but will respond if my name goes blue ;p)
[07:02] <ogra> \sh, with a lot of help from mvo (you should call him the AssemblerKing now)
[07:02] <\sh> ogra: good to know *eg*
[07:03] <mdz> ok, that's quorum at least :-)
[07:03] <dholbach> ogra: mvo rocks
[07:03] <ogra> yeh
[07:03] <mdz> we seem to have one MaintainerCandidate to process
[07:03] <ogra> +a
[07:03] <mdz> Ankur Kotwal?
[07:03] <ogra> DanielN ?
[07:03] <\sh> Unfrgiven:
[07:03] <ogra> huh ?
[07:03] <ogra> a
[07:03] <ogra> ah
[07:03] <\sh> Ankur is Unfrgiven
[07:04] <mdz> he's applying for MOTU
[07:04] <\sh> and DanielN_atw is not online
[07:04] <ogra> yep... i always muddle Ankur and Ante :)
[07:04] <sabdfl> hi all
[07:04] <ivoks> i'm Ante :)
[07:04] <ogra> hey sabdfl
[07:04] <dholbach> hi mark
[07:04] <\sh> for Unfrgiven I can give a ++ for MOTU...he did a lot for cxx and stuff
[07:04] <ogra> ivoks, i know.... but ivoks is more familiar ;)
[07:04] <ogra> absolutely
[07:05] <ogra> \sh++
[07:05] <sabdfl> mdz: you under way?
[07:05] <mdz> sabdfl: yes
[07:05] <mdz> sabdfl: currently Unfrgiven (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnkurKotwal) is being considered for MOTU maintainership
[07:05] <\sh> and for DanielN_atw , he made some progress in those 2 weeks after the last meeting and I think he would be a good candidate. Ogra, what do u think?
[07:05] <mdz> ogra and \sh both support his admission
[07:06] <dholbach> i worked with him on a package, but that's some weeks ago, he did it well
[07:06] <ivoks> ++ by me too
[07:06] <dholbach> i read his name a cuople of times on the c++ library list
[07:06] <ogra> sabdfl, we also met hi at udu, he made good progress with packaging since then
[07:07] <ogra> him even
[07:07] <dholbach> that's true, ogra
[07:08] <sabdfl> ok, fine by me if ogra and \sh have worked with him and think he's up to it
[07:08] <ogra> absolutely :)
[07:08] <mdz> likewise
[07:08] <Keybuk> same for me
[07:08] <dholbach> excellent :)
[07:08] <ogra> yay :)
[07:08] <ivoks> great
[07:08] <\sh> heissa :)
[07:08] <dholbach> watch the MOTU team grow :)
[07:09] <sabdfl> welcome aboard Unfrgiven!
[07:09] <mdz> Unfrgiven: congratulations and welcome
[07:09] <\sh> he's going mad when he's hearing that :)
[07:09] <ogra> so welcome Unfrgiven (in sleeping absence )
[07:09] <mdz> next up, Riddell on choosing an office suite for Kubuntu
[07:09] <sabdfl> Riddell: is there a wiki page that outlines the options and arguments?
[07:09] <Riddell> sabdfl: no there isn't
[07:09] <sabdfl> this sort of thing is best done in spec format, as a proposal
[07:10] <Riddell> trouble is I don't yet have an answer to propose :)
[07:10] <Riddell> koffice is faster and smaller and integrated
[07:10] <sabdfl> because whichever way it goes, in future people will want to know what was factored into the decision
[07:10] <mdz> the guiding principle should be to do whatever the KDE community will love
[07:10] <pitti> Riddell: what about stability?
[07:10] <sabdfl> mdz: agreed
[07:10] <\sh> Riddell: what about the compatiblity to ms office?
[07:10] <ogra> mdz, whyt about MS compatibility ?
[07:10] <Riddell> openoffice is probably less buggy and more compatible with MS Officce
[07:10] <pitti> Riddell: OO.o is a pain both stability- and performance-wise, is KOffice any better?
[07:10] <\sh> ogra: *g*
[07:10] <ogra> heh
[07:10] <sabdfl> in addition, since openoffice is in main, we should also make sure that k-oo.o love is around and available, even if it isn't the default
[07:11] <Riddell> pitti: it's a lot better performance wise, not so stability wise
[07:11] <mdz> ogra: see above; if MS compatibility is of great importance to the KDE community, they will factor that into their opinions
[07:11] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: k-oo.o love is utterly painful for amd64.
[07:11] <sabdfl> Riddell: we had a similar debate around abiword + gnumeric vs oo.o
[07:11] <\sh> mdz: i don't think it has to do with KDE alone...it's a matter of integration of * Linux into the office structure of companies
[07:11] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: is that true for the goo.o too.o?
[07:11] <Riddell> sabdfl: where can I find out about the discussions of that?
[07:11] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: less so, but yes.
[07:12] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: that is, more packages => more pain.
[07:12] <mdz> \sh: to a certain extent, such companies will make their own decisions about which software to use
[07:12] <ogra> mdz, true.... but still non KDE people will switch too :)
[07:12] <sabdfl> Riddell: poorly documented i'm afraid, we mostly had it on irc in the SSDS days
[07:12] <mdz> the default should be the "right thing" for a KDE-oriented distribution
[07:12] <\sh> mdz: and most of the companies using OOo as a choice
[07:12] <mdz> what do other KDE distributions do?
[07:12] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: I'm throwing in a data point, I'm not trying to veto (which I wouldn't be able to) k-oo.o.
[07:12] <\sh> they put both
[07:12] <Riddell> mdz: the only distribution to ship with koffice is mepislight
[07:12] <ivoks> oo.o seems more mature atm, but koffice is doing great improvment, imho
[07:12] <Riddell> ship as default that is
[07:13] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: your say counts for a lot around here, so don't be shy
[07:13] <Riddell> one agrument is that if nobody uses koffice then it will never improve
[07:13] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: the pain will be significantly less with ooo2 once we get it usable in a 64 bit form.
[07:13] <sabdfl> Riddell: similarly for Gnome office and KOffice, though
[07:13] <mdz> the 32-bit stuff for oo.o2-kde will be painful, yes,, but we'll need to do it regardless of which office suite is default in kubuntu
[07:13] <\sh> Riddell: what about shipping with koffice and OO?
[07:13] <Riddell> \sh: no space for that
[07:14] <sabdfl> and with java and sun, there's a feeling that it would be good to have strong ground-up-free office suits
[07:14] <mdz> how big is koffice?
[07:14] <ogra> \sh, no redundancys !
[07:14] <Riddell> although we will probably ship with kexi (database) and krita (drawing)
[07:14] <Mithrandir> mdz: but we won't have to package half of kde in ia32-libs-kde if we don't use ooo for kubuntu.
[07:14] <sabdfl> mdz: is oo.o2 64-bit K difficult because of the C++ nature of K?
[07:14] <Riddell> mdz: source is 20MB
[07:15] <mdz> sabdfl: it's difficult because KDE has a huge dependency chain which would need to be repackaged a la ia32-libs
[07:15] <ivoks> 20?
[07:15] <mdz> Mithrandir: even if kubuntu uses koffice by default, we should have oo.o2-kde available on all supported architectures
[07:15] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: ooo2 64 bit is difficult because the programmers writing staroffice thought that having assembly in a office suite made sense.
[07:15] <Mithrandir> mdz: do I get an extra bottle of whisky a month to endure the pain? ;-)
[07:15] <\sh> Mithrandir: no whisky while you're working ;-)
[07:16] <Riddell> koffice .debs are 21MB
[07:16] <Mithrandir> \sh: you haven't done ia32-libs, I see. :-)
[07:16] <uniq> the (few) comments on koffice vs. oo.o on kubuntu-users@list are all more or less pro oo.o.
[07:16] <pitti> \sh: you need the alcohol to double the 32 bit
[07:16] <\sh> Mithrandir: nope...but other nasty stuff;)
[07:16] <mdz> Riddell: what is your gut feeling?
[07:16] <\sh> pitti: yeah...this I know perfectly ;)
[07:16] <Mithrandir> anyhow, ooo is k-able on amd64 just fine, it's just painful.
[07:17] <dholbach> stabitily and exchangebility maybe should be the keypoint, imho - since people judge a distribution by what they use and what (and probably what not) works for them  --- i say that without being a fan of oo.o and its not-integrated-ness, and i agree with riddell on getting users for improving, new products
[07:17] <Riddell> mdz: I've been trying to use koffice as much as possible this last week since 1.4 release.  for lugradio live kpresenter couldn't open it's own slides and I had to re-do my whole talk.  that put me towards keeping openoffice
[07:17] <pitti> Riddell: is "not so stable" == "it crashes every half an hour"? or is it better?
[07:17] <\sh> Riddell: do u think the userbase will increase for koffice, if kubuntu is shipping it as default?
[07:17] <pitti> Riddell: I'd judge stability over performance
[07:18] <Riddell> pitti: "it crashes every half an hour" isn't too far off I suspect
[07:18] <pitti> Riddell: then you will rather scare away people with it, I'm afraid
[07:19] <Riddell> \sh: yes I do
[07:20] <\sh> Riddell: so, ship it...we have OO in anyway available
[07:20] <mdz> Riddell: so if you're leaning toward openoffice, and kubuntu-users seems to be leaning the same way, is there someone who can speak for koffice?
[07:20] <pitti> Riddell: ... not that OO.o wouldn't be scary on any but the latest and greatest number crunching hardware
[07:20] <Riddell> \sh seems to speak for koffice
[07:20] <Riddell> amu is a big koffice fan
[07:20] <ogra> \sh, whats the use of an ofiice suit that crashes every 1/2h, have fun with the bugreports you cant solve in a stable distro ?
[07:21] <Mithrandir> I was a fan of koffice five years ago, but it sounds like it might not have moved too much since then?
[07:21] <\sh> ogra: well, thinking of ms word which is crashing for me every single time I try to open a big document I don't have anything against a crashing presenter
[07:22] <dholbach> it's the same for gnome: abiword and gnumeric, but without a presenting software, you can't hand gnome-office to the average user yet, that's disappointing, but that seems to be life atm :-/
[07:22] <ivoks> we can't ship crashing app.
[07:22] <pitti> \sh: that isn't the thing we should compare software to
[07:22] <\sh> lets say it like this: if kubuntu is shipping as default with koffice, we can also try to stablelize it
[07:22] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: if we were to put a google-size bounty on proper oo.o2 64-bit support, is there anyone you can think of in the upstream crowd who could take it on?
[07:22] <ogra> \sh, we'll talk about it after you lost your first ubuntu slides 1/2h before the telk ;)
[07:22] <sabdfl> upstream being oo.o community
[07:22] <ogra> talk
[07:22] <pitti> dholbach: gnumeric is a great piece of software, it jsut works and is fast (as opposed to OO.o spread, which is buggy and slow as hell)
[07:22] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: I don't know upstream, so no, but I could look around.
[07:22] <\sh> pitti: we have OO in the repos...so the user is able to install OO  in an way
[07:22] <pitti> dholbach: it's abiword that sucks, though
[07:23] <dholbach> pitti: anyway, gnome-office just isnt ready yet :-/
[07:23] <pitti> \sh: right, but only one will be shipped on the CD
[07:23] <pitti> dholbach: agreed
[07:23] <ogra> pitti, its the missing presentation program that sucks imho
[07:23] <pitti> \sh: the point is, many users can't download big debs, they depend on a CD
[07:23] <uniq> \sh: koffice is smaller to download.
[07:24] <ivoks> then with koffice, you could put more apps on CD?
[07:24] <ivoks> that would be + for koffice
[07:24] <seb128> pitti: what's wrong about abiword?
[07:24] <mdz> Riddell: I think the best thing to do is to collect points in favor of each suite and document them on a wiki page
[07:24] <mdz> Riddell: once that's done, the answer could well be obvious
[07:24] <\sh> well, from my point of view, I would like to see KDE applications on a kde distro and vice versa.
[07:24] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: Pavel Janik is doing some work on it already<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[07:24] <pitti> seb128: it lacks too much important features, and the MS compatibility is much worse than OO.O's
[07:25] <Riddell> mdz: sounds like a plan
[07:25] <seb128> pitti: bah, not the place to argue about that :)
[07:25] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: is he upstream? distro? good credentials?
[07:25] <pitti> seb128: however, I only use gnumeric, and I never ever use a WYSIWYG word processor, so don't count on my opinion about abiword too much
[07:25] <seb128> pitti: happy about gnumeric? :)
[07:25] <pitti> seb128: gnumeric rocks
[07:25] <seb128> yeah ;)
[07:25] <sabdfl> ok, i think this needs to be specced
[07:25] <sabdfl> Riddell: could you put a spec together?
[07:26] <sabdfl> Oo.O2 vs KOffice - the default in Kubuntu
[07:26] <Riddell> sabdfl: I'm not sure what that would be.  isn't a spec more "we will do this" rather than "which should we do"?
[07:26] <mdz> right, the comparison chart we discussed would form the meat of a spec
[07:26] <sabdfl> Riddell: it starts with "these are the options"
[07:26] <mdz> just add some background to it
[07:26] <pitti> Riddell: after that discussion, do you think KOffice is still an option to consider?
[07:26] <sabdfl> then when there's a decision, you put that at the top
[07:26] <sabdfl> so afterwards it reads:
[07:27] <sabdfl>  "this spec documents our decision to run with OO.o2 for Kubuntu Breezy"
[07:27] <sabdfl>  "rationale"
[07:27] <sabdfl>  blah blah blah
[07:27] <pitti> Riddell: (I don't want to imply a "no" in any way)
[07:27] <sabdfl> </subliminal advertising>
[07:27] <mdz> Riddell: invite the kubuntu community to add their own thoughts to the list, within guidelines (keep it objective)
[07:27] <sabdfl> yes, the doc is open so people with an interest in either course of action can add pro's and con's
[07:28] <Keybuk> (
[07:28] <mdz> if it's still unclear at that point, we'll discuss it again with this additional context
[07:28] <Keybuk> sorry, desktop crapped out and decided that it didn't want to be on there
[07:28] <sabdfl> then it's easier to bring it to the TB and take an up or down vote amongst the kubuntu leaders and tb
[07:28] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: I think he's upstream, yes.  His blog has 271 entries on ooo and he's been doing amd64 porting for a bit of fair time.  I don't know him personally so I can't comment on his saneness, but it seems to be ok.
[07:28] <sabdfl> cool
[07:28] <Riddell> pitti: I think it's an option, see jdub's speach on how gnome office can overtake openoffice.  same for koffice
[07:28] <sabdfl> Riddell: there are definitely arguments in favour of lightweight native tools
[07:28] <pitti> Riddell: ok, great. well, spec and argument collection sounds really sane then IMHO?
[07:29] <sabdfl> but we do have to make a decision on the default
[07:29] <sabdfl> even if both end up in main, as we did with gnome office
[07:29] <sabdfl> anything more on Kubuntu Office?
[07:30] <Riddell> I'll write the spec then
[07:30] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: he's a Novell employee, fwiw.
[07:31] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: could be interesting :-)
[07:31] <mdz> ok, next up, pitti on language packs
[07:31] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: well, I guess they're interested in a 64 bit OOo this year too..
[07:31] <sabdfl> Riddell: you don't have to write it any further than needed to justify your own viewpoint, get someone else to argue the other side :-)
[07:31] <pitti> I wrote about the problem yesterday
[07:32] <pitti> so far I still think that the solution proposed in the udu spec (split up packs into -main/-gnome/-kde) is the way to go
[07:32] <pitti> however, I'd like to collect more opinions about that
[07:32] <pitti> the actual source of problem is that Kubuntu is not a proper derivative
[07:32] <seb128> 3) from the mail seems to be best option imho
[07:32] <pitti> with its own archive and so on
[07:33] <sabdfl> "    Besides language-support-lang, Kubuntu additionally installs kde-i18n-lang.  "
[07:33] <sabdfl> pitti: how do you propose to do that?
[07:33] <pitti> sabdfl: that is to avoid splitting the -support packages, too
[07:33] <pitti> sabdfl: it's already done
[07:33] <sabdfl> if someone wants to add a new language to the system, how does the system know to install the -kde or the -gnome pack?
[07:33] <pitti> sabdfl: the Kubuntu installer just does it and our language selector application can do it, too
[07:34] <sabdfl> pitti: how does it know if the user has, for example, installed Kubuntu and added abiword?
[07:34] <ivoks> khm...
[07:34] <pitti> sabdfl: the crude solution would be that langpack-o-matic just checks whether gnome and/or kde is installed
[07:34] <sabdfl> pitti: see above - "gnome" and "kde" become fuzzy concepts over time
[07:34] <sabdfl> it's easy at install time
[07:34] <sabdfl> hard once the sysadmin starts adding and removing packages
[07:34] <pitti> sabdfl: the fine-grained one is to check which packages are installed, so that the relevant pack could be installed if needed
[07:35] <pitti> sabdfl: so if language selector sees "ah, abiword is installed", it would pull in the gnome one
[07:35] <pitti> sabdfl: it's not an optimal solution, I'M aware of that
[07:35] <pitti> sabdfl: it also makes elmo cry because it will add 400 packages
[07:35] <pitti> sabdfl: but I don't know a better solution
[07:35] <Mithrandir> this sounds like a good use case for Enhances: support, btw.
[07:36] <pitti> if anybody does have a better solution, speak up :-)
[07:36] <Mithrandir> pitti: implement support for Enhances in dpkg and apt. :-)
[07:36] <pitti> Mithrandir: how does that help to not split langpacks?
[07:36] <mdz> pitti: the root problem is what?  a combined language pack is too large?
[07:37] <pitti> mdz: yes, we can't fit them all onto the CDs
[07:37] <mdz> we already can't fit them all onto the CD
[07:37] <mdz> how many would we lose?
[07:37] <pitti> mdz: KDE translations alone are bigger than main+gnome right now
[07:37] <mdz> so we would lose more than half?
[07:37] <Mithrandir> pitti: it helps the packaging system note that "oh, you have this installed, then you probably want this too".
[07:37] <pitti> mdz: we ship all on most CDs
[07:37] <pitti> Mithrandir: ugh, that would be pretty intrusive; I think mvo and I had a better solution for the langpack selector at least
[07:38] <mdz> pitti: we ship all on 2 out of 6 CDs ;-)
[07:38] <pitti> oh?
[07:38] <pitti> hm
[07:38] <pitti> yes, we would loose more than half of the translations
[07:38] <dholbach> "order your ubuntu cd-case today."
[07:38] <mdz> but one of those two is the i386 install CD, which accounts for a disproportionate number of uses
[07:38] <\sh> is a dvd not cheaper then?
[07:38] <Mithrandir> dholbach: s/case/backpack/. :-)
[07:38] <pitti> well, DVDs would solve the problem at instant :-)
[07:38] <mdz> \sh: DVDs are more expensive than CDs
[07:39] <mdz> and less portable
[07:39] <ivoks> is it possible to do CDs by area? east europe, midle east, etc?
[07:39] <sabdfl> \sh: we still have to focus on 650MB CD's, unfortunately
[07:39] <pitti> or make Kubuntu a proper derivative with its own archive
[07:39] <ogra> \sh, not everybody has a DVD reader
[07:39] <mdz> ivoks: it is possible to create them, but it is impractical to test them
[07:39] <mdz> ivoks: we already must test 8 images for each release candidate
[07:39] <pitti> mdz: if langpack-o-matic could create different langpacks for Kubuntu than for Ubuntu, that would rock, but with the current structure it can't
[07:39] <\sh> ogra: yes :) i forgot the *grmpf* ;)
[07:39] <mdz> er, 9
[07:39] <ivoks> oh, then this would be too much
[07:40] <ivoks> didn't think of that :)
[07:40] <mdz> pitti: what's the least intrusive way to split the langpacks?
[07:40] <pitti> one alternative would be to split it to l-p-ubuntu and l-p-kubuntu
[07:40] <pitti> and copy the common stuff into both
[07:40] <pitti> but that's ugly IMHO
[07:40] <sabdfl> pitti: i'm happy with your first proposal
[07:40] <mdz> unified language packs, while inefficient in terms of space, are awfully attractive due to their simplicity
[07:41] <sabdfl> it just means the language selector needs to be smart
[07:41] <pitti> mdz: right
[07:41] <pitti> sabdfl: so we don't support KDE translations in Rosetta?
[07:41] <sabdfl> mdz: you mean install all the gnome translations on a fresh kubuntu box?
[07:41] <mdz> sabdfl: I mean the approach we're already using
[07:41] <pitti> sabdfl: would be the easiest solution, but redundant and non-symmetrical
[07:42] <sabdfl> pitti: what's non-symmetrical about -base, -gnome and -kde?
[07:42] <pitti> mdz: what do you mean by "way to split"?
[07:42] <pitti> sabdfl: oh, I thought you meant (1) in my mail
[07:42] <mdz> pitti: I can't find your email; what was the subject?
[07:42] <pitti> sabdfl: (1) in mail was the status quo
[07:42] <mdz> ah, found it
[07:42] <sabdfl> no, LanguagePackRoadmap
[07:42] <pitti> "27.06.05 18:43 Martin Pitt       Preparing tomorrow's language pack TB topic"
[07:42] <pitti> sabdfl: ah, ok, so that would be the split
[07:43] <sabdfl> it has its warts, but i can't see a better one
[07:43] <mdz> pitti: is there any significant advantage of (3) over (1) for breezy?
[07:43] <Riddell> mdz: it means kubuntu has translations on CD
[07:43] <mdz> Riddell: gnome translations, you mean?
[07:43] <pitti> mdz: Rosetta support mainly
[07:44] <pitti> mdz: and Kubuntu does not need to ship gnome translations and instead has room for kde ones
[07:44] <Riddell> mdz: 3 means we have translations, 1 means we don't have KDE translations
[07:44] <pitti> well, there is no golden solution anyway, we just have to choose the pain
[07:44] <mdz> pitti: why does (1) make rosetta support impossible?
[07:45] <Riddell> mdz: nowhere for rosetta to output to
[07:45] <pitti> mdz: not impossible, but we had to regenerate kde-i18n-foo, which consists of more than translations
[07:45] <mdz> oh, I see, it uses kde-i18n-foo rather than language-pack-kde
[07:45] <pitti> mdz: it would be possible, I guess, with some hacking
[07:45] <mdz> (3) seems the clear winner, to me
[07:46] <pitti> would it be possible to give Kubuntu it's own archive?
[07:46] <mdz> not for breezy
[07:46] <pitti> or would that make sense?
[07:46] <pitti> no, not for breezy, but in the long run
[07:46] <pitti> I think we could live with option (1) for breezy
[07:46] <pitti> if we have a solution in sight for breezy+n
[07:47] <mdz> we should take advantage of rosetta for kubuntu
[07:47] <pitti> understandable
[07:48] <pitti> mdz: I think the biggest con of (3) is the hoary->breezy upgrade
[07:48] <mdz> I don't see that as a major issue
[07:49] <mdz> when the language pack is upgraded, we'll drop an update-notifier hook to prompt the user to reconfirm their language settings
[07:49] <pitti> well, upgrade notes, just as for Hoary (when users lost all their translations as well)
[07:49] <pitti> that sounds good
[07:49] <mdz> any further unresolved issues regarding language packs?
[07:50] <pitti> Ineed to convince elmo to accept 400 new packages :-)
[07:50] <pitti> anybody has serious issues with (3)?
[07:50] <mdz> elmo: would you like to weigh in on this?
[07:50] <ogra> pitti, give them to doko, then elmo wont even recognize ;)
[07:51] <pitti> ok, thanks guys for your input
[07:51] <mdz> ok, you can follow up with elmo later if he takes issue with it
[07:51] <pitti> ok, I'll do
[07:51] <mdz> next up, REVU with no person associated with it
[07:52] <mdz> ogra?
[07:52] <sabdfl> hmm... sec
[07:52] <pitti> it's always better to hear more than just the own opinion when trashing he archive :-)
[07:52] <\sh> and ogra :) and dholbach
[07:52] <sabdfl> linspire just did their German edition release
[07:52] <ogra> mdz, you could put MOTU aside :)
[07:52] <sabdfl> they wait till they have a certain coverage of translations, then release a dedicated iso
[07:52] <sabdfl> has the advantage that the installer can skip the language question
[07:52] <sabdfl> and just install the language it is dedicated to
[07:52] <mdz> ogra: /me points to the "INCLUDE YOUR NAME" comment in the wiki
[07:53] <sabdfl> i wondered if there is any interest in us making similar releases?
[07:53] <mdz> sabdfl: we've discussed it; the primary issue is testing
[07:53] <ogra> mdz, i didnt put it there ... \sh !
[07:53] <ogra> :)
[07:53] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: but then, you get to keep half a gazillion ISOs on cdimage.
[07:53] <mdz> we need to at least sanity check every ISO release
[07:53] <sabdfl> mdz: i don't know how this would fit into the broader picture, i would not want to amp up the number of iso's on the main release
[07:53] <\sh> mdz: put the blame on me pls :) i need to put it asap on the agenda :)
[07:53] <mdz> if we do 10 localized ISOs, we need to test them all
[07:53] <sabdfl> i suspect these would best be distributed from the loco websites
[07:53] <mdz> 10 locales x 3 architectures = 30 more test cases
[07:53] <sabdfl> we would only do releases that the loco teams want, they test, when they're happy, we push the button
[07:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: have we considered doing some sort of automated testing similar to the lab joeyh has set up?
[07:54] <pitti> right now we still have the ability to ship 10 translations on a CD, which make them somewhat more universal
[07:54] <mdz> Mithrandir: where "considered" -> "gee, that would be nice"
[07:54] <ogra> sabdfl, you mean additional localized ones ? or our default release ?
[07:54] <ivoks> sabdfl: maybe is possible to have more locos in same image, this way more loco teams would work on testing
[07:54] <pitti> sabdfl: that would make much sense with translations we don't put on CDs though, even if the images are sort of unofficial
[07:54] <sabdfl> ivoks: that's a cool idea
[07:55] <Mithrandir> mdz: not "gee, that would be nice, let us commit some resources to it"?
[07:55] <sabdfl> if we could automate the process of generating the install iso, we could make this work
[07:55] <mdz> sabdfl: I expect we would need the launchpad infrastructure in order to manage production of localized ISOs
[07:55] <sabdfl> mdz: absolutely
[07:55] <mdz> maintaining that many sets of seeds is impractical in our current setup
[07:55] <sabdfl> i'll bounce the idea off kinnison in brazil
[07:56] <mdz> ok, can we close the language pack discussion?
[07:56] <sabdfl> ok
[07:56] <sabdfl> thanks
[07:56] <pitti> from my side yes
[07:56] <pitti> thanks
[07:57] <ogra> revu !
[07:57] <mdz> right, next is \sh on REVU
[07:57] <ivoks> :>
[07:57] <\sh> yes
[07:57] <\sh> I don't know if anybody is informed about our new toy :)
[07:57] <ogra> \sh, give us an introduction :)
[07:57] <mdz> \sh: perhaps a one-line explanation of what REVU does, for the benefit of those listening at home :-)
[07:57] <sabdfl> url again?
[07:57] <ogra> http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/
[07:57] <ivoks> http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/
[07:57] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU?highlight=%28REVU%29
[07:58] <\sh> to have a view inside, please refere to http://revu.ubuntu.linux-server.org/
[07:58] <\sh> I created an account for you all, that u can have a look inside
[07:58] <\sh> username<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and pw: sabdfl  ;)
[07:58] <ogra> sabdfl, its a tool for test autobuilding packages, collecting comments and seeing all data about a package that should get reviewed
[07:58] <\sh> (will be deleted in anyway after this meeting :))
[07:59] <\sh> some adds to ogra:
[07:59] <dholbach> and collecting advocates (3 for MOTU NEW packages)
[07:59] <ogra> yeah
[07:59] <\sh> right now we're reviewing newpackages for MOTU via wiki..which is not bad, but it's sometimes confusing
[07:59] <ogra> so it perfectly mirrors our review process
[07:59] <ogra> and its written in python :)
[08:00] <\sh> so siretart had an idea of doing it via a webinterface, with database and build automation
[08:00] <\sh> siretart and a friend of him wrote this nice little peace of software, and now we're trying to establish it to the motu world :)
[08:01] <sabdfl> ROCKS!
[08:01] <\sh> right now, uploading packages (debuild -S -sa) and putting comments etc. is working. the test build is included the next days
[08:01] <dholbach> automatic linda and lintian are additional features
[08:01] <ogra> but we feel it would belong into the DC, but we need a sbuild capable environment, so a vserver might not work
[08:01] <\sh> we have only limited resources on our servers, siretart has only a vserver without the possibility to create a sbuild env. and I have only my server with more then one service running on it
[08:01] <ogra> (strike one but :) )
[08:02] <\sh> dholbach: it's included already ;)
[08:02] <\sh> we can inject all automatic tests we need through hooks
[08:02] <dholbach> \sh: i didn't say they were missing :)
[08:03] <\sh> ok, now we're looking for a permanent home :)
[08:03] <mdz> \sh: are you interested in working on AutomatedTesting as well? ;-)
[08:03] <mdz> right, the matter at hand
[08:03] <sabdfl> are the linode servers not capable of sbuild?
[08:03] <\sh> mdz: let me do my other todos first :)
[08:04] <Kamion> surely you can chroot from a vserver ...
[08:04] <mdz> assuming you get root in the vserver
[08:04] <ogra> mdz, \sh  first needs to write a KDE version of gnome-power )
[08:04] <\sh> Kamion: sbuild also? would u provide us with a solution? what we found out, that we need admin capabilities
[08:05] <\sh> and then update-manager and SER and my normal work, and then life
[08:05] <sabdfl> mdz: i think linode gives you root
[08:05] <sabdfl> it's either Xen or UML based
[08:05] <ogra> \sh, forget about your normal work, who nees TV anyway :)
[08:05] <Kamion> \sh: if you don't have root, then indeed that would be a problem; if you do, then it's relatively straightforward assuming sufficient disk space
[08:05] <mdz> sbuild just requires root
[08:06] <\sh> ogra: u pay my rent? ,-)
[08:06] <ogra> heh, depends *g*
[08:06] <\sh> and my wife ;-)
[08:06] <\sh> ex at least ;)
[08:06] <ogra> NO !
[08:06] <\sh> more expensive ;)
[08:06] <ogra> yep
[08:06] <dholbach> guys... :)
[08:06] <ogra> ok, offtopic here
[08:07] <mdz> \sh: so is the root issue that you need help setting up sbuild?
[08:07] <ogra> mdz, nope, we'd like a machine in the DC
[08:07] <sabdfl> ogra: why?
[08:07] <\sh> mdz: it's that and resources...I can handle only a bit more...but then my server will break
[08:08] <ogra> sbuild in the test env is already running
[08:08] <sabdfl> how about a linode?
[08:08] <ogra> sabdfl, can we ge sbuild running there ?
[08:08] <ogra> get even
[08:08] <sabdfl> ogra: yes, i believe so, it's a root environment
[08:08] <sabdfl> UML i think
[08:08] <ogra> ah, great, then this would suffice
[08:09] <elmo> uh
[08:09] <ogra> elmo, objections ?
[08:10] <sabdfl> elmo: we need to get a purchase order for a bunch of linode's in
[08:10] <elmo> this is a buildd that only accepts uploads signed by universe maintainers right?
[08:10] <ogra> elmo, yes
[08:10] <sabdfl> then we need a very lightweight process to get those fired up
[08:10] <\sh> elmo: yes
[08:10] <dholbach> elmo: and MOTU hopefuls
[08:10] <ogra> elmo, with additional acess control before
[08:10] <elmo> if so - I'm 95% completed work on something that makes it a moot point
[08:10] <elmo> oh, ok, not for MOTU hopefuls
[08:10] <mdz> this is essentially entirely untrusted stuff
[08:11] <mdz> it's probably not even signed at the moment
[08:11] <elmo> ok, nm then
[08:11] <sabdfl> elmo: we will need the "build a package for anybody" stuff in due course, but i think linode is the answer for this one
[08:11] <mdz> and certainly not by a key we can authenticate
[08:11] <\sh> there is no package coming from this system
[08:11] <elmo> sabdfl: want me to sort that out?
[08:11] <sabdfl> elmo: yes please
[08:11] <\sh> all packages are reviewed only and uploaded by MOTUs with upload right to universe
[08:12] <mdz> sabdfl: as long as it doesn't steal cycles from backports ;-)
[08:12] <dholbach> \sh: NO, they are uploaded by MOTU hopefuls as well
[08:12] <ogra> dholbach, he means in the end
[08:12] <dholbach> ogra: well uploads to the archive were already handled before :)
[08:13] <ogra> dholbach, yeps
[08:13] <ogra> :)
[08:14] <mdz> ok, so the resolution is to set up a linode system to run these builds
[08:14] <mdz> any further unresolved issues?
[08:14] <sabdfl> \sh: we will pay for the linode system, she's yours to play with
[08:14] <mdz> \sh: will this meet your needs?
[08:14] <\sh> sabdfl: we are honoured :) and I have to say thx for siretart in absence as well :)
[08:15] <sabdfl> elmo: let's talk about a streamlined linode-for-community deal tomorrow?
[08:15] <\sh> mdz: of course
[08:15] <elmo> sabdfl: sure
[08:15] <sabdfl> elmo: are you in london tomorrow?
[08:15] <elmo> sabdfl: all week
[08:15] <sabdfl> cool
[08:15] <mdz> I am in london in ~48 hours
[08:15] <sabdfl> next up?
[08:15] <sabdfl> mdz: rock :-)
[08:15] <ogra> sabdfl, done :)
[08:15] <mdz> that's the end of the agenda
[08:15] <mdz> any other business?
[08:16] <sabdfl> \sh: REVU looks very cool, well done
[08:16] <\sh> sabdfl: I will report it to siretart, I think he will be very proud to hear that :)
[08:16] <ogra> sabdfl, its siretarts baby, \sh has set up the backend
[08:17] <mdz> ok, looks like it's safe to adjourn
[08:17] <mdz> thanks, everyone
[08:17] <\sh> thx mdz
[08:17] <ogra> thanks mdz
[08:17] <pitti> thanks folks
[08:18] <dholbach> thanks mdz


[07:46] <oSoMoN> can someone with upload rights for kopano-webapp trigger an autopkgtest run for eoan/amd64 ? I'd like to verify that my chromium snap patch fixed bug #1834052 indeed
[07:51] <seb128> LocutusOfBorg, hey, did you see that your iputils upload has a autopkgtest issue?
[07:56] <Unit193> Debian 931491
[07:59] <seb128> Unit193, was that supposed to in reply to what I wrote?
[07:59] <Unit193> seb128: Sorry, not precisely.  It was referenced in the Debian changelog, that's the remaining delta in Ubuntu.
[08:02] <seb128> Unit193, I'm unsure what you are trying to tell me there?
[08:02] <Unit193> seb128: Heh, don't mind it.  It's only loosely related.
[08:03] <seb128> Unit193, I was pointing out the iputils entry on https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#desktop-packages
[08:03] <seb128>     newpid/10: amd64 (log, history), armhf (log, history), i386 (log, history), ppc64el (log, history), s390x (log, history)
[08:04] <seb128> Unit193, our upload didn't fail to build/doesn't have that Debian FTBFS and I don't know about the delta with Debian :)
[08:04] <seb128> but thx for the info still? :)
[08:05] <Unit193> G'morning, anyway. :)
[08:05] <seb128> indeed! :)
[08:13] <Gargoyle> Mornin'
[08:15] <Gargoyle> Laney: Can I DM you sometime today re the Desktop Software Engineer role?
[08:20] <Laney> Gargoyle: Yes, but don't hang around too long
[08:21] <LocutusOfBorg> to answer seb128, I'm in contact with upstream wrt iputils, since some days :D
[08:21] <Unit193> You can't answer him, he left.
[08:21] <LocutusOfBorg> hopefully he might read backlog anyway :)
[08:21] <LocutusOfBorg> or I can just repaste once he is back
[08:24] <Unit193> seb128: < LocutusOfBorg> to answer seb128, I'm in contact with upstream wrt iputils, since some days :D
[08:25] <LocutusOfBorg> that one :) that was the reason lol
[08:28] <LocutusOfBorg> seb128, I don't want to "just update the test with "ping:" before the other expected result, because such changes easily break userspace applications when they are parsing tools' outputs
[08:28] <LocutusOfBorg> so, better ask upstream before uploading
[08:28] <LocutusOfBorg> same for postgresql-11 ppc64el and s390x test failures
[08:34] <LocutusOfBorg> stgraber, hello, there is a question on #release channel for you... wrt docker.io and i386 test failure
[08:35] <seb128> LocutusOfBorg, right, I was just checking you saw it since those don't trigger notifcations (out of the 'is for <n> days in proposed')
[08:42] <LocutusOfBorg> seb128, thanks, I usually open a browser tab when I upload, so I don't miss them, but sometimes they require some more time :)
[08:43] <LocutusOfBorg> seb128, thanks, I usually open a browser tab when I upload, so I don't miss them, but sometimes they require some more time :)
[08:43] <LocutusOfBorg> I usually miss them in SRUs :)
[08:43] <LocutusOfBorg> but thanks for the ping, it is always appreciated!
[08:43] <seb128> yw! thx for follow up with upstream on the issue :)
[08:51] <oSoMoN> xnox, would you mind triggering again http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/kopano-webapp/eoan/amd64 ? I'd like to make sure my chromium snap fix did the trick
[08:51] <LocutusOfBorg> oSoMoN, I did it :)
[08:51] <oSoMoN> oh, thanks!
[09:16] <Laney> oSoMoN<EMAIL_ADDRESS>\o\ /o/
[09:18] <oSoMoN> \o/
[09:19] <oSoMoN> thanks Laney
[09:21] <Laney> well done
[09:24] <oSoMoN> Laney, can you revert https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release/britney/hints-ubuntu/revision/3744 ?
[09:24] <Laney> yes!
[09:24] <Laney> (how do you revert in bzr?)
[09:25] <oSoMoN> bzr merge . -r 3744..3743 IIRC
[09:25] <oSoMoN> or something like that
[09:25] <Laney> bzr merge . -r3744..3743
[09:25] <Laney> works
[09:26] <oSoMoN>  cheers
[13:33] <ricotz> sil2100, hi, debian/control wasn't updated in rustc - 1.35.0+dfsg0.1+llvm-0ubuntu1~ppa1
[13:34] <sil2100> ricotz: I know, just re-uploaded
[13:34] <ricotz> good
[14:43] <ddstreet> juliank any chance you had time to start review on https://code.launchpad.net/~ddstreet/software-properties/+git/software-properties/+merge/367276
[14:44] <ddstreet> let me know if you have any feedback
[14:46] <juliank> ddstreet: Not yet, I forgot about it, I added a trello card to keep track of it now
[14:46] <ddstreet> thanks
[16:35] <jackpot51> The new AMD Ryzen 3000 series processors are out, and there are serious issues on Ubuntu versions newer than 18.04: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1835809
[17:27] <sumitcn> where is the .css file where I can change the purple color of ubuntu to black
[17:27] <sumitcn> anyone ?
[19:29] <tfgbd_> Why does Ubuntu crash on my PC
[19:31] <tomreyn> also the wrong place, see /topic
[19:50] <CarlFK> tomreyn: -Disco needs updating ;
[20:10] <tfgbd_> I'm using mint now
[21:44] <tomreyn> CarlFK: why?
[21:45] <cjwatson> That range has classically been the currently-supported versions, as opposed to the in-development version (which at least used to be directed to #ubuntu+1), so -Disco seems correct
[21:46] <tomreyn> and surprisingly there's no topic protection on this channel
[21:46] <cjwatson> Sometimes we +t if there's an active problem, otherwise wiki-style lets people be useful
[21:47] <cjwatson> It's mostly not a big deal
[21:47] <tomreyn> i like it (as long as it's not getting abused)
[21:49] <kyrofa> Hey cjwatson, how often do you folks typically go through the proposed unapproved queue? We have a no-change rebuild to python-pygraphviz that we've very much like to get in
[21:49] <cjwatson> kyrofa: I don't at all, it hasn't been adjacent to my duties for over four years
[21:49] <cjwatson> Ask somebody else :)
[21:51] <cjwatson> (I'm still in ~ubuntu-sru for vestigial tool maintenance reasons but don't actually do SRU processing)
[21:52] <kyrofa> Ah, okay
[21:54] <kyrofa> Just curious if there's some sort of established process for this, I guess
[21:54] <kyrofa> Some of those have been there a while
[21:56] <cjwatson> There may well be, I know there's been some kind of recently instituted regular team meeting to try to get through things, but honestly I'm pretty out of the loop
[21:56] <cjwatson> Sometimes process or no process there just isn't enough time ...
[21:57] <CarlFK> tomreyn: opps, my bad.   We have a no-change rebuild to python-pygraphviz queued up for bionic
[22:01] <vorlon> kyrofa: it is roughly FIFO, with no particular SLA on time to review, and if you have something urgent you should ping the SRU team member du jour listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Publishing
[22:03] <kyrofa> vorlon, ah excellent, I thought that was only once it was verified, missed that it also covered unapproved, thank you


[02:45] <paulproteus> Hey pleia2, are there evening events at UDS today?
[02:45] <paulproteus> (wiretapped, are you going to UDS?) My friend geofft said there was something 7p-9pm but I don't seem  to find info about it on the web
[02:45] <paulproteus> Oh hi geofft
[02:45] <paulproteus> Maybe you'll answer here.
[02:47]  * paulproteus feels silly not knowing where the party is.
[02:47] <akk> They sure don't make it obvious where to look for such things.
[02:48] <akk> I don't see anything in the schedule or on "other events", but I know there are some parties some nights and I don't see any listed.
[02:53] <paulproteus> In other news, pleia2's amazing page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UDS-Q is super clear. Three chears for that!
[02:53] <paulproteus> Er, cheers.
[02:53] <paulproteus> Gosh.
[02:55] <akk> It is super-clear, but I think it's just unsanctioned events ... e.g. I see no mention of a google party but I know there's supposed to be one.
[02:56] <paulproteus> http://uds.ubuntu.com/event/ !
[02:56] <paulproteus> There we are, evening events.
[02:59] <paulproteus> Good news is now, I know where the party is.
[02:59] <paulproteus> Bad news for them is, I'll go join them!! (;
[04:54] <itnet7_uds> akk: if you're already here at uds the ticket for the google party is found within the swag bag
[05:00] <Ademan-remote2> pleia2: I don't suppose you'll be bringing more local badges tomorrow?
[05:02] <pleia2> Ademan-remote2: no, sorry, I've run out :(
[05:03]  * pleia2 should have made a lot more
[05:04]  * Ademan-remote2 agrees
[05:04] <Ademan-remote2> I'll attend an balug to get one!
[05:37] <MarkDude> Good times at UDS
[05:39] <philipballew> MarkDude, I was gonna stop and say hi, but I had to help a few people right then...
[05:40] <MarkDude> No stress
[05:40] <MarkDude> I will be there earlier tomorrow
[05:40] <philipballew> free breakfast
[05:55] <MarkDude> Well there is a Community Manager breakfast in the city at 8
[06:42] <DonkeyHotei> there's a google party?
[06:48] <pleia2> tomorrow night google is sponsoring: http://uds.ubuntu.com/event/
[06:48] <pleia2> "Run away to the circus with Google!"
[06:48] <DonkeyHotei> ah
[06:48] <pleia2> there are food and drink tickets in your conference bag
[06:48] <DonkeyHotei> i saw those
[06:48] <DonkeyHotei> at first i thought they were for tonight
[06:49] <DonkeyHotei> i never did find anyone with an irc nick longer than 15, but apparently eps did, and it didn't occur to me to ask who
[07:35] <gua> So there's going to be a keysigning party at UDS, and not having made a key before, I'm not sure what expiry time I should set, if any. What's the general practice with that? Just set it to never expire then send out a revocation if it's ever compromised?
[07:35] <gua> (btw feel free to answer if I'm gone, I'll check the logs)
[07:36] <DonkeyHotei> idk whether they might not like the fact that my key is DSA instead of RSA
[07:36] <DonkeyHotei> (don't make new DSA keys, folks)
[07:37] <gua> heh
[07:44] <gua> Never is a long time. I'm leaning towards 5 or 10 years.
[07:46] <DonkeyHotei> i set mine to a little while, and then i set it to never
[07:47] <DonkeyHotei> revocation certs are standard
[07:48] <gua> DonkeyHotei: Can you do a thing where you make a new key, then sign the new key with the old key, and so that makes it so everyone that signed your old key basically signed your new key?
[07:58] <bkerensa> gnight all
[14:35] <geofft> gua: You can change the expiration on your key later (provided it hasn't expired and you still have the private key)
[14:36] <geofft> gua: so I would set it to something like a year if you're still figuring out where a secure place to keep your key is
[14:37] <geofft> gua: crap. having said that I realized my key expired in January
[14:37] <geofft> so maybe don't follow my advice :)
[14:38] <geofft> 5-10 years should be fine though.
[14:43]  * DonkeyHotei changed his from a year or something to infinite, as previously stated
[15:59] <geofft> Where do we get one of those nifty "I'm a local" badges?
[16:00] <Faqtotum> i doubt there are any more; ask pleia2
[16:00] <pleia2> sorry, ran out very early yesterday (there were only 15 of them)
[16:02] <geofft> aw :(
[16:03] <paulproteus> geofft: Yo
[16:06] <geofft> paulproteus: *waves* Did you make it to the thing last night? My phone died midday so I missed your texts
[16:06] <paulproteus> Yeah, totally did. It was grand. You're at UDS now? I think I'll head in around noon.
[16:06] <geofft> I'm in the BART tunnel :(
[16:45] <paulproteus> BTW, has anyone been to the Metreon's food court? It seems like a good place to host a hackathon, if the power and wifi actually work.
[16:45] <paulproteus> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/02/02/BUHA1N1UES.DTL
[16:46] <pleia2> I go there often
[16:46] <Faqtotum> did that with sf2600 years ago
[16:46] <pleia2> there is always a lot of space, but you might need to get permission because they do have security and stuff, may not be cool to just bring in 50 people with laptops and camp out :)
[16:47] <paulproteus> I'm thinking 4-8 people tops for this one.
[16:47] <paulproteus> Power and wifi seem to actually work, though, in your experience?
[16:48] <paulproteus> I'm quite excited by the idea of eating at La Boulange and having power and wifi.
[16:48] <paulproteus> And to my glee there is a Boulange there in the Metreon. (-:
[16:48] <pleia2> I haven't used the power, but the wifi tends to be good
[16:48] <akk> paulproteus: I remember it as being very noisy.
[16:48] <paulproteus> Mmm, even on a Sunday?
[16:49] <Faqtotum> you'd need to bring power strips, no question
[16:49] <paulproteus> Good to know + can do that
[17:17] <geofft> and my PGP key is no longer expired.
[17:19] <geofft> I'm not really sure whether I'm comfortable with having been able to do that...
[20:24] <yantrashilpi> hello all. have a question about UDS. Is there anyway to view or listen to the "plenary" sessions live? I didn't see any links on the ubuntu summit website.
[21:46] <paulproteus> pleia2: Nice talk! (:
[21:46] <pleia2> paulproteus: thanks :)
[21:48] <Faqtotum> i'm more encouraged by ubuntu-studio
[21:49] <Faqtotum> as for edubuntu, a thought: cloud-based ltsp
[21:49] <Faqtotum> might be viable now
[21:49] <Faqtotum> nice to see lubuntu mature, too
[21:51] <paulproteus> Of the Ubuntu contributors here, are you excited by Ubuntu Accomplishments?
[21:52] <paulproteus> I find it interesting that all the derivatives said "We need more people!!" but didn't mention Accomplishments.
[21:52] <pleia2> I think it's geared toward newer contributors who are motivated by things like that (the current contributors obviously have their own motivations)
[21:53] <pleia2> we'll see how it goes for Ubuntu before we spend the dev time to add accomplishments ;)
[21:54] <paulproteus> (-:
[21:55] <broder> gamification is definitely a thing, and is an effective motivator until you get bored of it
[21:56] <grantbow> +1
[21:58] <broder> i...didn't expect him to actually finish that on time
[21:59] <paulproteus> Yeah I'm kind of surprised as well.
[22:03] <paulproteus> By the way, while I'm here on IRC... if anyone is willing to help be a reviewer for http://openhatch.org/missions/ we could really use that.
[22:04] <paulproteus> I and other OpenHatch people are making changes to those teaching tools, and we could use people to look over the changes we're making and ensure they are truly improvements.
[22:05] <paulproteus> If you want to learn more, do join in #openhatch ; I'll stop advertising here for now (:


[00:07] <smudgeblot> Hi all...I'm trying to add the Wirless Networks available to mythtv, but I don't know what the name /how to find the program that opens available networks. Any ideas?
[02:39] <zuixro> Hey I have Mythbuntu 10.04, I tried to upgrade to 10.10, but I had a crash during the upgrade. I did a partial upgrade, now there's about 200 packages that I can't update. Does anyone know how to fix this?
[03:31] <rhpot1991> zuixro: tried sudo apt-get -f install?
[04:01] <zuixro> rhpot1991 No luck. I don't think it's a dependancy problem. I'm backing up everything right now to do a reinstall.
[04:02] <rhpot1991> zuixro: if you do sudo update-manager -d
[04:03] <rhpot1991> again
[04:03] <rhpot1991> it doesn't fix it?
[04:06] <zuixro> I'm getting "Not all updates can be installed"
[04:06] <zuixro> And it offers a partial upgrade, which I already did
[13:18] <qwebirc92932> Hi - we just installed a Nova T500 DVB card, but it won't display video. We had to turn the LNA on for it to find channels. I note that there were issues in the past but it's meant to work out of the box now. Any standard answers on making this card work?
[13:43] <sturebror> use firmware 1.10, not 1.20
[13:44] <qwebirc92932> that fixes just the remote doesn't it?
[13:44] <qwebirc92932> and yes it is using 1.20 at the moment
[17:43] <qwebirc92932> oh well - I guess we'll just keep plugging away at it
[22:48] <Seeker`> anyone running trunk tried iplayer on mythnetvision?