[02:59] <jeff__> Are there logs from the north american membership meeting today?
[02:59] <jeff__> I missed it on the drive home
[02:59] <emgent> @schedule rome
[03:03] <persia> jeff__: irclogs.ubuntu.com tends to be mostly complete
[03:03] <jeff__> Yeah I missed the membership meeting with me in it :-/
[03:04] <jeff__> When did they add in there was going to be a meeting, a week or less ago?
[03:09] <nxvl> @schedule lima
[03:09] <persia> Right.  There ought be some useful discrimination of channels there.  The MOTU School Session doesn't happen here.
[04:07] <lifeless> putting the channel inthe meeting would do that
[04:07] <lifeless> "26 Jun 10:00 UTC: MOTU School Session - Apport retraces #ubuntu-motu" for instance
[04:10] <persia> Well, it's #ubuntu-classroom.
[04:11] <lifeless> persia: "for instance"
[04:11] <persia> lifeless: OK.  In that case my feature request has been implemented, but the documentation hasn't been passed to the relevant meeting organiser.
[04:12] <persia> That being an educational issue, it can be sorted by the Dean.
[04:13] <persia> lifeless: And thanks for the explanation :)
[04:15] <lifeless> persia: I think having 'rooms' that have separate schedules would be good; I was really just noting an obvious workaround :)
[04:19] <persia> lifeless: The bot isn't able to differentiate on the title then?
[04:20] <lifeless> persia: I have no idea about implementation
[13:54] <pitti> greetings, Earthlings!
[13:54] <Riddell> hello planet pitti
[13:56] <Hobbsee> pitti!
[13:56] <pitti> Hobbsee: look, behind! a three-headed code monkey!
[13:56] <Hobbsee> pitti: ARGH!!!!
[13:56]  * Hobbsee runs
[13:56]  * pitti tosses a gummybear to Riddell
[13:58] <Keybuk> Oh!  Wo ist mein Gummi?  Ich habe sie verloren!
[13:59] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: none for you.    That'd be un-American (for people in Texas).
[14:04] <MacSlow> tedg, I wonder how long you'll have to endure texas-related jokes now
[14:04] <Keybuk> if any of you ever get to visit Dell, take great delight in the gun checks they have in each building
[14:04] <tedg> I'm working on my "folks-y" analogies.  That's crazier than a chicken with a trough full of speed.  (not quite there yet)
[14:04] <MacSlow> Keybuk, serious?
[14:05] <Keybuk> and the prominent sign on the door reminding all employees that hand guns are not to be worn in the building and must be checked
[14:05] <Keybuk> MacSlow: yup
[14:07] <tedg> MacSlow: In Texas guns are allowed by default, unless they are explicitly forbidden with obvious signs.
[14:07] <MacSlow> tedg, Keybuk: gee! that gives me the creeps!
[14:07] <Keybuk> anyway, meeting time
[14:07] <Keybuk> in a radical move, I put together the agenda again:
[14:07] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-06-26
[14:07] <Keybuk> I only saw the item from MacSlow, did I miss any others?
[14:07] <MacSlow> so I begin?
[14:07] <mvo> do the flip!
[14:07] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: gasp!
[14:07] <MacSlow> mvo, only one? :)
[14:07] <Keybuk> no, we begin with outstanding actions from the last meeting ;-)
[14:07] <Keybuk> #
[14:07] <Keybuk> MacSlow to update clutter to appropriate version, not worrying about parallel install
[14:07] <MacSlow> done
[14:07]  * Keybuk saw a comment from njpatel saying he wished we had clutter 0.7
[14:08] <ogra> but likely referring to hardy :)
[14:08] <MacSlow> speaking of the de... :)
[14:08] <Keybuk> njpatel: you wanted clutter 0.7?  in intrepid?
[14:08] <MacSlow> njpatel, just kidding :)
[14:08] <seb128> and somebody asked me about it this week too
[14:08] <MacSlow> njpatel, have a look https://edge.launchpad.net/~macslow/+archive
[14:08] <njpatel> Keybuk: yeah 0.7 and 0.8 is released in a few weeks
[14:09] <seb128> MacSlow: any reason it's in your ppa and not in intrepid? ;-)
[14:09] <Keybuk> MacSlow: who will be checking and sponsoring that for you?
[14:09] <seele> Keybuk: pinged jono again but havn´t gotten a reply yet
[14:09] <MacSlow> seb128, njpatel: well I skipped the docs for those packages... because I intet them for personal use first :)
[14:09] <MacSlow> so don't go around suggesting those to everybody :)
[14:09] <Keybuk> MacSlow: that doesn't fulfill the outstanding action :-)
[14:09] <njpatel> MacSlow: cool
[14:09] <Keybuk> MacSlow: the action was go get the new clutter in the archive
[14:09] <Keybuk> so I shall leave that as outstanding for next week
[14:10] <MacSlow> Keybuk, ups... ehm... well then I misunderstood that part... with archive I assumed just my PPA *cough*
[14:10] <Keybuk> seele: thanks
[14:10] <Keybuk> MacSlow: and how are you doing on merges?
[14:11] <MacSlow> except for gnumeric/goffice all the other assigned ones (gtkglext, planner, gnome-pilot-conduits, gnome-netstatus) are done
[14:11] <Keybuk> (this can also segue nicely into our first agenda item)
[14:11] <MacSlow> hey mpt
[14:11] <Keybuk>  * MacSlow: problems with merging goffice (needed by gnumeric)
[14:12] <seb128> goffice is not an easy one indeed
[14:12] <MacSlow> Keybuk, but for some I worked on other fokls were faster and uploaded before me
[14:12] <mpt> Sorry, I was out and it took longer than expected
[14:12] <MacSlow> yeah... have a look here -> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mmueller/rules
[14:12] <mpt> (bureaucratic stuff)
[14:12]  * mvo waves to mpt
[14:12] <MacSlow> that certainly is over my head in regards of package/merge-magic capabilities
[14:13] <Keybuk> did you look at the Ubuntu patch to see what the intent was?
[14:13] <Keybuk> oh
[14:13] <Keybuk> wow
[14:13] <Keybuk> the Ubuntu patch is quite insane
[14:13] <MacSlow> seb128, mvo: I'll gladly take any tips and hints you can give me to get goffice/gnumeric done
[14:13] <seb128> the intend is to build gtk variants for xubuntu
[14:13] <seb128> so it's basically rewritting the build system to build it twice
[14:14] <seb128> and debian added dbg variants in the meantime
[14:14] <Keybuk> seb128: could you help MacSlow with that one?
[14:14] <seb128> yes
[14:14] <Keybuk> let him do the work, but make sure he knows what to do and why
[14:14] <MacSlow> seb128, a thousand thanks!
[14:14] <seb128> alright
[14:14] <pitti> (that patch -> maaadness!)
[14:14] <seb128> MacSlow: you're welcome ;-)
[14:15] <MacSlow> pitti, but then... I need challanges to learn that stuff so you'll get less questions from me in the future :)
[14:15] <Keybuk> even I wouldn't know where to begin there :p
[14:15] <MacSlow> hm... this is my lucky week then... ;)
[14:16] <MacSlow> just got the right thing :)
[14:16] <Keybuk> ok thanks
[14:16] <MacSlow> np
[14:16] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:16] <Keybuk> ye olde Sponsoring queue
[14:17] <Keybuk> mvo: there's a coreutils merge in there, have you looked at it or is slangasek?
[14:17] <pitti> wow, 188690  shows me as pitti(97); I'm sure that I wasn't on that list last week, and I certainly didn't get a bug mail about it; yay Launchpad
[14:17] <Keybuk> seb128: there's a gnome-applets fix for gailishness
[14:17] <seb128> Keybuk: yes, I intend to upload that this afternoon
[14:18] <pitti> oh, 188690 is a multi-task bug where I just happened to fix some tasks
[14:18] <seb128> I was just delaying it because the configure seems to have a requirement on libgail for nothing
[14:18] <kwwii> pitti: thanks for uploading my stuff, btw :-)
[14:18] <seb128> so ideally the configure should be fixed rather
[14:18] <Keybuk> seb128: ok
[14:18] <pitti> kwwii: you're welcome; looking forward to seeing the new theme :)
[14:18] <mvo> Keybuk: I haven't, because slangasek did the last merge, but I can certainly review/sponsor the merge
[14:18] <Keybuk> mvo: check with steve first
[14:18]  * mvo nods
[14:19] <MacSlow> kwwii, hey... the chocolate brownish in the input-fields is nice!
[14:19] <Keybuk> ok
[14:19] <kwwii> MacSlow: it might be a bit too dark but having it that dark avoids a few bugs ;-)
[14:19] <Keybuk> Any Other Business?
[14:20] <Riddell> hardy .1 happening this week coming?
[14:20] <Keybuk> I think so, check with slangasek
[14:20] <pitti> should be on track if we want to release on time
[14:20] <pitti> pulseaudio and some samba stuff have to be left unfixed then, though
[14:21] <Keybuk> before we wrap up, I'd just like to go through everyone to collect a list of specs that are targeted for Intrepid
[14:21] <Keybuk> Riddell: you first
[14:22] <Keybuk> (the lp names will suffice)
[14:22] <Riddell> kubuntu-intrepid-version (the main one)
[14:22] <Riddell> kubuntu-porting and kubuntu-defaults the other important bits
[14:23] <Keybuk> any others that community people are working on, or that were discussed at UDS?
[14:23] <MacSlow> re
[14:23] <Riddell> kubuntu-intrepid-defaults actually
[14:23] <MacSlow> sorry...
[14:23] <Riddell> and kubuntu-intrepid-kde4-porting
[14:23] <MacSlow> that was the f**king binary blog from nvidia failing (freezing) on me
[14:24] <Keybuk> ok
[14:24] <Keybuk> kwwii: none from you?
[14:24] <Riddell> Keybuk: people are taking bits, keeping track at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
[14:24] <pitti> make-intrepid-shiny? :)
[14:24]  * MacSlow hugs vuntz
[14:24] <kwwii> Keybuk: no specs for me, no...but plenty to do anyway :-)
[14:25] <Keybuk> kwwii: I have "New Theme" for you
[14:25] <kwwii> as a spec?
[14:25] <Keybuk> no, just as a roadmap item
[14:25] <Keybuk> are you working on any other bits?
[14:26] <kwwii> mainly just the theme
[14:26] <Keybuk> ok
[14:26] <Keybuk> pitti:
[14:26] <kwwii> on the side we have one guy working on OOo icons but I am not sure if it will make it into intrepid
[14:27] <pitti> intrepid-device-permissions: relatively quick to implement in its current form, no problem on that, I'll do it myself
[14:27] <pitti> consolidate-spell-checkers: I'll supervise, seb128 will apply some patches when he touches the GNOME packages anyway, and I'll coordinate langpack updates and seed changes with Arne
[14:28] <pitti> kernel-abi-package-handling: I'm just drafting, implementation will be done by mvo (apt) and tim/Ben  (maintaining kernel that way)
[14:28] <pitti> jockey-printer-driver-support: that's a huge one, but I'm working on it; some bits come from system-config-printer upstream, I'm coordinating with him
[14:28] <pitti> gdm-guest-account: still unsure what to do, no response from upstream so far
[14:29] <Keybuk> gdm-guest-account has a sabdfl priority
[14:29] <pitti> other stuff: I'm working with Alberto to integrate envy into jockey, and hand over nvidia/ati jockey handlers to him, as well as repackaging the nvidia/ati bits
[14:29] <pitti> Keybuk: seb128 thinks that it'd be better to use the new gdm for that, but if I don't get a response soon, I think I'll do some more homebrew solution, if you don't mind
[14:30] <Keybuk> sure
[14:30] <seb128> pitti: you might want to try #gdm on gimpnet
[14:30] <MacSlow> pitti, seb128: hm... is the new gdm packaged yet for intreipd?
[14:30] <pitti> seb128: I'll try that
[14:31] <seb128> MacSlow: no, and but we really need it right?
[14:31] <seb128> the update is tricky
[14:31] <seb128> there is no config migration code upstream
[14:31] <pitti> (NB that the new gdm doesn't really support guest logins yet; that'd still require lots of work)
[14:31] <seb128> and the new codebase still lacks feature the old one had
[14:31] <MacSlow> pitti, seb128: yes... and that's why I want to offer my help on that... it touches your and my stuff
[14:32] <seb128> ideally I would say there is no hurry to update but there is the face browser thing
[14:32] <MacSlow> seb128, yeah... the "login experience" is my highest prio task this cycle
[14:33] <MacSlow> seb128, btw... it's officially called "login experience" now... no long "face-browser"... just to avoid confusion in the future :)
[14:33] <seb128> alright
[14:33] <MacSlow> but I won't rename the spec
[14:33] <Keybuk> mvo:
[14:34] <mvo> packagekit-intrepid: mostly implementation work by glazor and testing what works and what dosn't, pitti already upload latest packagekit (thanks!)
[14:34] <mvo> compiz-intrepid: mostly tweaks, unless we want to use the glxclip plugin and not wait for dri2
[14:35] <Keybuk> I don't mind if we barely touch compiz this cycle
[14:35] <pitti> packagekit-intrepid> I need to fix a couple of more things, and haven't tested repository adding/removing yet; I'll help with that
[14:35] <mvo> kernel-abi-package-handling: the apt bits are tricky with the two dimensional design that is proposed, especially because it looks like the aptitude and smart resolver need to be modified too (smart for landscape love)
[14:35] <MacSlow> mvo, hm... DRI2 atm only exists for i915 afaik... other free driver will take some time to "catch up"... not sure who might be working on getting DRI2 in the other drivers
[14:35] <mvo> upgrade-testing-in-the-sandbox: I would like to give people the ability to clone there machine into a VM and run a upgrade test there
[14:36] <MacSlow> mvo, I could ask around in the "Xorg-circles" I know... of we'll just ask bryce if he knows something on the DRI2-status in other drivers
[14:36] <mvo> single-sign-on releated work (sent mail to Keybuk (not sure if you had a chance to read it yet and how much we can talk in a public channel)
[14:36] <pitti> mvo: but the two dimensions should be handled entirely independent from each other? also, why does it actually need changes in the resolver? translating them into dependencies doesn't work?
[14:36] <mvo> some improvements to the auto upgrade tester: libvirt and snapshots for better debgging of failures
[14:36] <Keybuk> mvo: which mail was that?
[14:36] <mvo> Keybuk: sent to you on monday, give me a sec and I give you the msgid
[14:37] <Keybuk> oh, the backup bits?
[14:37] <mvo> MacSlow: yeah, there is this "hack" plugin that can clip away dri windows in compiz
[14:37] <mvo> Keybuk: yes
[14:37] <Keybuk> ah, I had mentally filed that as "backup" not ubunet
[14:37] <MacSlow> mvo, I know... you and/or onestone demoed that to me at Prague
[14:38] <Keybuk> thanks
[14:38] <Keybuk> MacSlow:
[14:38] <mvo> pitti: its tricky, it needs to be fast because the depcache is not cached but rebuild on every run
[14:38] <MacSlow> Keybuk, yes?
[14:39] <Keybuk> MacSlow: which specs/projects will you be working on for Intrepid? :-)
[14:39] <MacSlow> damn... I hope my DSL isn't freaking out again
[14:40] <MacSlow> Keybuk, mostly login-experience (gdm-face-browser)... do assigned bugs... pick up sparkle-plugin form last cycle if possible
[14:40] <Keybuk> ok
[14:41] <Keybuk> tedg:
[14:41] <tedg> power-management-settings (at least the GPM parts), network-account-profiles-datastore, network-account-profiles-?
[14:41] <Keybuk> -?
[14:41] <Keybuk> ?
[14:41] <seb128> what are those network account things?
[14:41] <tedg> I'm unsure if any of the others have priority.  It was to get you to ask :)
[14:42] <tedg> seb128: Single-sign-on/Ubuntu.net/NAP (we're searching for a name)
[14:42] <seb128> ah ok
[14:42] <Keybuk> tedg: which ones have you drafted so far?
[14:42] <seb128> just making sure that's not a network-admin thing
[14:42] <tedg> Keybuk: I think all of them but the applications are in good shape.
[14:43] <tedg> I should re-read them though.
[14:43] <Keybuk> tedg: what are the names? :p
[14:43] <Keybuk> (for the log)
[14:44] <tedg> network-account-profiles-datastore, network-account-profiles-launchpad, network-account-profiles-management, network-account-profiles-applications
[14:44] <tedg> Oh, and there's the umbrella network-account-profiles
[14:45] <Keybuk> thanks
[14:46] <Keybuk> seb128:
[14:46] <seb128> better-login-speed intrepid-menus-review consolidate-spell-checkers
[14:46] <seb128> gnome-2-24 too
[14:46] <seb128> and there is the music and photo experiences reviews, but I don't know if you consider those as intrepid targets
[14:47] <Keybuk> what are the names of those specs?
[14:47] <seb128> ubuntu-music-experience is the music one
[14:47] <seb128> did register the photo one, it's lot of work if we want to open bugs for every issues which has been listed
[14:47] <seb128> s/did/didn't
[14:48] <seb128> but I can make one and dump the notes in the wiki for now
[14:48] <seb128> ubuntu-photo-experience
[14:48] <Keybuk> ok
[14:48] <Keybuk> in terms of GNOME 2.24, there's a couple of big new pieces
[14:48] <Keybuk> we've already discussed gdm
[14:48] <Keybuk> how's the new gnome-session going?
[14:49] <seb128> I landed GTK 2.13 in intrepid
[14:49] <MacSlow> ah cool
[14:49] <seb128> gnome-session is packaged locally but I'm still discussing with upstream how to do "use compiz but fallback to something else if the wrapper exit an error"
[14:49] <seb128> right now it doesn't handle that
[14:50] <seb128> I talked with lucas about it yesterday and he should have some code to try for that soon
[14:50] <pitti> seb128: could the wrapper just start metacity itself, as a fallback?
[14:50] <pitti> as opposed to failing with a magic exit code and leave the fallback to g-s?
[14:50] <seb128> pitti: the issue is that the new gnome-session wait for the started component to register to continue login
[14:50] <seb128> so if we start compiz but something else register it gets really confused
[14:50] <seb128> wait
[14:51] <seb128> go to timeout
[14:51] <seb128> and that looks ugly
[14:51] <seb128> we need a way for gnome-session to know that the wm has been started to it can continue to the next login sequence
[14:51] <seb128> s/to/so
[14:52] <Keybuk> ok thanks seb128
[14:52] <seb128> I'm not really concerned about this one, it's going to be fixed one way or another soon
[14:52] <seb128> gdm is an another topic
[14:52] <Keybuk> we're almost out of time for the meeting, so any other business?
[14:52] <seb128> we really want the new one right?
[14:52] <Keybuk> we dp
[14:52] <Keybuk> we do
[14:52] <seb128> we will have some feature not available
[14:52] <Keybuk> which features?
[14:53] <pitti> ^ we are used to that from hardy and gvfs </dark sarcasm>
[14:53] <seb128> pitti: no real regression in gvfs, just some bugs
[14:53] <seb128> sec
[14:53] <seb128> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gdm-list/2008-June/msg00017.html
[14:53] <pitti> seb128: (btw, we'll switch to gphotofs for good?)
[14:53] <seb128> pitti: yes
[14:54] <seb128> I'm also not comfortable having no configuration migration on upgrade
[14:55] <seb128> but I'm not sure how much work it would me to write some code for that and I've already way too much to do
[14:55] <pitti> uh, and no gdmsetup any more?
[14:55] <Keybuk> the mail says the new gdm has no configuration to migrate to? :)
[14:55] <kwwii> wow, you can't even theme the thing
[14:56] <seb128> Keybuk: I think there is some configurable settings, just no interface to change the values ;-)
[14:56] <pitti> seb128: sudo -u gdm gconf-editor then? (it uses gconf exclusively, I guess)
[14:56] <seb128> pitti: right
[14:58] <kwwii> erm, if we are going to use this we are going to need to have a dev work with me on the themeing, according to that email
[14:58] <Keybuk> ok
[14:58] <Keybuk> new gdm hard
[14:58] <seb128> well, MacSlow is working on the new gdm login experience as a priority this cycle apparently
[14:58]  * Keybuk picks a suitable large spanner out of the toolbox and heads for the works with an evil glint in his eye
[14:59] <pitti> I guess I'll go with the d-bus backend solution for the guest account then, to not block on the new gdm, and implementing guest support in it
[14:59] <MacSlow> kwwii, yes... no theming yet
[14:59] <pitti> with my newly acquired skills of writing d-bus backends with PolicyKit support that shouldn't be too hard :)
[15:00] <seb128> on an another side intrepid is not a lts
[15:00] <pitti> Keybuk: btw, do you consider it an intrepid goal to get rid of the remaining gksu usages in the desktop? or just as "eventually"?
[15:00] <seb128> we could land the new gdm soon as it is
[15:01] <Keybuk> pitti: eventually
[15:01] <Keybuk> intrepid would be nice
[15:01] <Keybuk> seb128: your call, I think
[15:01] <seb128> and then try to work with upstream at fixing issues
[15:01] <pitti> Keybuk: *nod*
[15:01] <Keybuk> if you'd like a second opinion, pitti can probably give one
[15:01] <seb128> knowing that we might not have configuration migration for intrepid
[15:01] <pitti> mvo: PKification of the language selector etc. :)
[15:01] <seb128> not sure if we really care about that though
[15:01] <mvo> pitti: synaptic?
[15:02] <seb128> ok
[15:02] <pitti> mvo: that one is hard; I don't think we have time to migrate that for intrepid
[15:02] <pitti> not as long as PK doesn't support debconf & dpkg conffiles
[15:02] <pitti> mvo: but e. g. the language selector is easy, langpacks are tame
[15:02] <mvo> yeah, happy that you share my feelings about this
[15:02] <mvo> indeed
[15:02] <seb128> ACTION: seb128 to package the new gdm stock upstream version and upload to the desktop team ppa for people who want to give it a try
[15:02] <Keybuk> seb128: that's a good plan
[15:03] <pitti> mvo: and we could finally use it for user settings as well, such as configuring scim
[15:03] <mvo> pitti: we do use it for scim on a user-basis already
[15:04] <pitti> mvo: oh, right, it's already run as user and calls gksu synaptic
[15:04] <mvo> we also need a interface to write default language, but that ties in nicely with the http proxy work that needs a similar interface
[15:04] <pitti> seb128: will we retain g-s-t for intrepid, or will that go away somehow?
[15:04] <mvo> /etc/default/locale
[15:04] <pitti> seb128: (since I noticed that Fedora doesn't even ship it) I wonder what they use?
[15:05] <mvo> I guess they use there system-config-* stuff
[15:05] <pitti> ah
[15:05] <seb128> pitti: they use redhat system tools
[15:05] <seb128> pitti: ie, system-config-printer, etc
[15:06] <seb128> dunno, but I want to get ride of g-s-t
[15:06] <pitti> seb128: I'm not saying that we should kill g-s-t, just curious about the plans
[15:06] <seb128> it's ugly, complex, written in perl, not used by other distros and not maintained upstream now
[15:06]  * mvo ++
[15:06] <pitti> oh, Carlos stopped developing it?
[15:06] <seb128> the plan is to deprecate network-admin in favor of network-manager 0.7
[15:06] <ogra> and a pain if you need to add stuff that should show up in the UI
[15:06] <mvo> seb128: we need to come up with something for the system config http proxies etc anyway, maybe we can fold something in here too
[15:06] <seb128> to use the gnome-panel clock config rather than time-admin
[15:07] <seb128> services-admin sucks and does nothing we can just remove it
[15:07] <pitti> seb128: right, got that; time-admin is also pretty obsolete, the panel has that
[15:07] <pitti> seb128: but users-admin?
[15:07] <seb128> we just need to find an equivalent to users-admin
[15:07] <ogra> pitti, the wors
[15:07] <ogra> t
[15:07] <seb128> pitti: let's look at the redhat system tool for that one? ;-)
[15:07] <ogra> ++
[15:07] <pitti> seb128: do we use anything else from g-s-t? I can't find more ATM
[15:07] <seb128> users-admin doesn't work anyway
[15:07] <seb128> by reading the bug flood on launchpad about gnome-system-tools
[15:08] <seb128> pitti: no, I just did the list
[15:08] <seb128> we deprecated shares-admin if favor of nautilus-share already
[15:08] <seb128> and as said I don't think services-admin is of any use
[15:08] <pitti> and with our dropping of system groups the profile/groups stuff is mostly unneeded, too
[15:09] <pitti> seb128: so if users-admin is the only reason why we still have g-s-t/s-c-b, I'm all for replacing it with something more adequate
[15:09] <pitti> shall I have a look at the tool in Fedora?
[15:09] <seb128> yes please
[15:09] <mvo> a way to set the workgroup from the UI would be nice again, but otherwise I think sharesadmin is pretty solid
[15:09] <pitti> ACTION: pitti to evaluate Fedora tool for user administration
[15:09] <pitti> Keybuk: ^
[15:09] <ogra> pitti, i find it funny that only fedora comes up in tehse discussions all the time
[15:09] <seb128> mvo: maybe network-manager 0.7 can do that ;-)
[15:09] <ogra> what are others using ?
[15:09] <seb128> ogra: yast? ;-)
[15:09] <pitti> ogra: is there another option?
[15:10] <ogra> no idea
[15:10] <pitti> it was the only alternative that came up ATM
[15:10] <ogra> but nobody ever says lets look at mandrake ... or gentoo
[15:10] <mvo> seb128: that seems to be the solution for all problems ;)
[15:10] <ogra> (just a sidenote)
[15:10] <pitti> and if there's no official GNOME tool to do it, we just have to look at what the others use, no?
[15:10] <seb128> I'm not a fan of the drake tools and they are written in perl too
[15:10] <pitti> right, Mandriva is worse
[15:10] <seb128> gentoo uses gnome-system-tools I guess
[15:11] <ogra> pitti, pardus :)
[15:11] <seb128> as do debian
[15:11]  * ogra hides
[15:11] <seb128> or other non corporate distros which don't have the ressources to write their own tools
[15:11] <pitti> ogra: the advantage I see here is that we want to get rid of gksu and don't have root; Fedora has the same goal, thus I think that their tool will comply to that
[15:11]  * pitti apologizes to Keybuk for stealing the meeting focus
[15:11] <pitti> let's continue that in #u-devel
[15:12] <ogra> pitti, right, that was a more general comment, i remember a while ago we always inspected nearly every option ... today its alwas lets look what fedora has
[15:12]  * MacSlow wonders what about everybodies darling Python and PyGTK
[15:12] <pitti> ogra: well, I just saw the horrible Mandriva tools, I really don't like them
[15:13] <pitti> I haven't seen yast in a while, and admittedly I have no clue about gentoo and pardus
[15:13] <seb128> well, as said I don't think non commercial distros have ressources to write their tools
[15:13] <seb128> I think gentoo uses gnome-system-tools too
[15:14] <kwwii> just use yast - it can do *everything*
[15:14]  * kwwii ducks
[15:14]  * MacSlow looks for a blade of some sort
[15:14] <MacSlow> :)
[15:14] <pitti> MacSlow: what about it?
[15:14]  * tedg is using yast right now to make coffee -- mmm
[15:14] <pitti> MacSlow: I mean pygtk
[15:15] <MacSlow> pitti, I thought these kind of UI-settings tools were all written in Python... reading that those are actually written in perl strikes me as very unusual
[15:15] <mvo> MacSlow: its the best of all worlds, the gui is C and the backend is perl
[15:15] <pitti> MacSlow: g-s-t is C, system-config-backends is Perl
[15:16] <MacSlow> pitti, would Python not be a much better language of choice for such tools?
[15:16] <ogra> tedg, do you use the make dishes plugin as well ?
[15:16] <MacSlow> mvo, pitti: oh... I thought it was all perl
[15:16] <pitti> MacSlow: that's the Mandriva stuff
[15:16] <pitti> (and it looks horrible, too)
[15:17] <tedg> ogra: No, turns out it breaks mine then apologizes in German :)
[15:17] <MacSlow> pitti, never saw any of those tools from Mandriva
[15:17] <ogra> lol
[15:17] <pitti> they'd make mpt scream and run in triangles :)
[15:17] <mpt> :-(
[15:18] <MacSlow> mpt, that bad?! Uff
[15:18] <james_w> the server team have been looking at http://augeas.net/ It doesn't seem to have a frontend, but it might make one easier
[15:18] <mpt> I'd love to design a new user accounts tool if needed
[15:18] <kwwii> obtuse triangles
[15:18] <pitti> james_w: oh, backend for ebox?
[15:19] <seb128> ogra: who said we are not looking around?
[15:19] <james_w> pitti: yup, but it might be interesting to have it as a backend for a g-s-t replacement as well.
[15:19] <pitti> james_w: certainly worth keeping in mind; not so interesting for user administration perhaps, though
[15:20] <pitti> james_w: but really interesting for other purposes
[15:20] <james_w> pitti: true.
[15:20] <ogra> seb128, :)
[15:22] <pitti> thanks for the heads-up
[15:23] <pitti> we overstepped the meeting time, but at least for me personally that was useful
[15:23] <seb128> same for me
[15:25] <pitti> Keybuk: anything else for the meeting?
[15:36]  * pitti takes that as a "no" then and thanks everyone


[20:22] <pleia2> In this section we hand it off to our experts in live classes, irc and moodle for them to put it into their respective formats.
[20:22] <pleia2> so someone familiar with moodle will take the raw documents produced and put it into a moodle course
[20:22] <pleia2> a live classroom teacher may export the lesson plan as PDF directly and follow that for teaching
[20:23] <pleia2> ...but this is our workflow in a perfect world, and we don't live in one :)
[20:23] <pleia2> To account for this, the project is very flexbile with this workflow.
[20:23] <pleia2> Want to join the project and just do an IRC session? Great! Update the wiki to show the class you're covering and link to the session logs so we can gain from your expertise.
[20:23] <pleia2> Want to join the project and just do development directly in Moodle? Excellent! Update the wiki to show what you'll be covering in your Moodle course and link to your progress.
[20:24] <pleia2> This is a pretty preliminary view of how we're doing things now and it'll be worked through in the coming months, but are there any questions before I move on to how to get involved?
[20:24] <pleia2> < axisys> how do I pull this https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning-board/ubuntu-learning-materials/trunk
[20:25] <pleia2> doctormo is the bzr expert on the team, so I'll let him answer this one :)
[20:25] <doctormo> OK so there are a few old branches you should ignore, one is trunk, which is filled with odfs.
[20:26] <doctormo> the best thing to do is to pull from the development focus
[20:26] <doctormo> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-learning-materials
[20:27] <pleia2> thanks doctormo
[20:27] <doctormo> Make sure you keep your branches up to date, and then commit your branches when you've made changes.
[20:27] <pleia2> we're going to be writing some documentation specifically targeted toward contributors to help with this
[20:27] <doctormo> We'll do merge requests and variosu thijngs, to be taught.
[20:28] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: going back to linux-for-education.org, which uses moodle, can we put out moddle versions there ?  Is there any objection to that?
[20:28] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> if we want to translate asciidocs into moodle, can we do it there and link to them?
[20:28] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> or is there a moodle site for this project we can put them into?
[20:28] <pleia2> so, Moodle is not actually my forte, but the license allows us to share this material and contribute it to any other moodle deployments
[20:28] <pleia2> asciidoc can be exported into html, and that would be put into moodle
[20:29] <pleia2> and our moodle site is here: http://learn.ufbt.net/ :)
[20:29] <pleia2> we've already imported at least one course from another source since the license was friendly
[20:30] <pleia2> Now... how do you get involved? How do you benefit from our resources?
[20:30] <pleia2> We've made it pretty easy to join the project, as outlined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure:
[20:30] <pleia2>  1. Get a launchpad account and sign the Code of Conduct (see: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto#Validation%20on%20Launchpad)
[20:31] <pleia2>  2. Introduce yourself to the team and give us an idea of your interests, skills, and how you see yourself working with the team (introductions can happen via mailing list or in IRC, in public or to a team board member)
[20:31] <pleia2> we like introductions because then we know what kind of talent we have on the team, those of us organizing course material can know who to ask about certain things
[20:32] <pleia2> for instance, I know dinda is a Moodle wizard :) so we've been able to ask her when we get stumped on moodle, if she doesn't know she tends to know who to ask!
[20:32] <pleia2>  3. Apply for or have one of the board members add you to the launchpad team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning
[20:32] <pleia2> that's it! very simple :)
[20:32] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: how small can a contribution be?  I've written a couple of short "hacklets" for ubuntu-fl.org that are really more of the tips and tricks nature, would you want those?
[20:32] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> example: http://www.ubuntu-fl.org/2009/08/27/hacklet-apt-cache-redirect/
[20:33] <pleia2> These are great! In the case of these I'd link them to the wiki page they're related to
[20:33] <pleia2> so maybe that would go under our "maintaining ubuntu" course, so add it to the wiki and when the person writing the course gets to it, they may decide it's a great resource and to teach it in the course
[20:34] <pleia2> our course writers will tend to be experts in what they're writing, but having resources written by dozens of other brilliant minds will help a lot, so links to the wiki, links to docs like this
[20:35] <pleia2> So, we're looking for folks to help out the project in a variety of ways:
[20:35] <pleia2>  * Folks who will help fleshing out outlines and getting links to great material that exists so we can link to it as reference material
[20:35] <pleia2> (so jump right in! thanks already mhall119|work!)
[20:37] <pleia2>  * Course writers either using the set workflow, or developing directly for Moodle, IRC or Live sessions
[20:37] <pleia2> we already have cprofitt with some great plans for moodle, doctormo doing live sessions, and Ubuntu Classroom chugging along with IRC sessions but we need a lot more help
[20:38] <pleia2> so...
[20:38] <pleia2>  * Moodle experts who can help others with Moodle development
[20:38] <pleia2> we had a great session with an educator that dinda put us in touch with several weeks ago
[20:38] <pleia2>  * IRC teachers who will lead courses in IRC (related to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom)
[20:38] <pleia2> we'd love to see this channel active again for more than just Ubuntu Open Week :)
[20:38] <pleia2>  * Real Life session teachers who are seeking to teach course material
[20:39] <pleia2> so again, folks looking to teach things for their LoCo teams, using our materials
[20:39] <pleia2> we want people doing this, giving us feedback, helping us improve our documents
[20:39] <pleia2>  * Material reviewers
[20:39] <pleia2> doctormo tends to post his finished courses on his blog and the comments are great! we need more folks doing this
[20:40] <pleia2> And how can you benefit from this project? As courses are released, you can take them and start teaching them!
[20:40] <pleia2> Already, Martin Owens has already released 10 courses in PDF that he's been teaching for the US-MA LoCo for the "How to Maintain Ubuntu" section, which can be found at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics under "System Administration Basics Course"
[20:40] <pleia2> and as I mentioned before, the Pennsylvania team is planning on doing some intro classes for a local non-profit that refurbishes computers
[20:41] <pleia2> < openweek1_> QUESTION: how will be handled other than english languages in the materials/courses
[20:41] <pleia2> the great thing about asciidoc is the ability to port it into different formats - I am not intimately familiar with translations, but I'm told it can be exported into translation friendly formats
[20:42] <pleia2> < artopal> QUESTION: What was the rationale behind choosing asciidoc instead of some other lightweight markup language like, e.g. txt2tags (which is also very feature full), or the more common (and complex) alternative: docbook?
[20:42] <pleia2> We hashed this out during meetings, docbook was decided to be too hard to learn - the barrier to entry was too high
[20:43] <pleia2> I don't recall why we didn't go with txt2tags, but team member BiosElement spent several weeks researching a whole pile of formats
[20:44] <pleia2> asciidoc has a format very similar to wiki, so we figured most people could catch on quickly
[20:44] <pleia2> and although it's not quite as easy as writing things in odt (which we'll accept too, if we need to), aciidoc's ability to be exported into loads of formats is great
[20:44] <pleia2> < openweek1_> QUESTION: I dont get it, how is asciidoc related to Moodle? Is it its native format? Because I have some expiriance with moodle, but no export/import
[20:44] <pleia2> asciidoc can be exported into .html, which you can import into moodle
[20:45] <pleia2> < kennethvenken> QUESTION: do you have a roadmap? When will the first courses be ready?
[20:45] <pleia2> the first 10 courses are completed and we're actively developing several more
[20:45] <pleia2> we don't actually have a roadmap with specific goals, we should :)
[20:46] <pleia2> < doctormo> QUESTION: are courses peer reviewed at all?
[20:46] <pleia2> as I mentioned earlier - one of the things we need volunteers for is review, thus far they've been reviewed on blogs and by posting raw material to the mailing list
[20:46] <pleia2> so yes, they are peer reviewed
[20:48] <pleia2> This pretty much wraps up my summary of the project, are there other questions?
[20:49] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: are you reaching out to LoCo teams to contribute?  we're always looking for something to do for Ubuntu
[20:50] <pleia2> we'd like to do more of this, thus far we've reached out to some of the leaders in the community (popey with locoteams is aware)
[20:51] <pleia2> and there are several loco teams who have already approached the project to say that they're ready for material when it comes out - very inspiring for us :)
[20:51] <pleia2> < doctormo> QUESTION: Does this project compete with the Canonical courses?
[20:51] <pleia2> not directly, we're all community based, have no certifications tied to our programs are are more geared toward grass roots teaching in locos and things
[20:51] <pleia2> s/are are/and are
[20:54] <pleia2> < duanedesign> QUESTION: if you start working on a paticular topic what is the best way to communicate this so their is no duplication
[20:54] <pleia2> you'll want to update the wiki page to say that
[20:55] <pleia2> for instance, if you check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[20:55] <pleia2> you'll see a line which says: Ubuntu Desktop Introduction -- Log of this course outline from doctormo, pleia2 developing
[20:55] <pleia2> just a note like this next to an item is sufficient, and perhaps a link to your in-progress work (whether it's in bzr, moodle, etc)
[20:56] <pleia2> that way people know you're working on it, and if they want to pitch in they can contact you
[20:56] <pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: can you pull existing content from the Ubuntu Pocket Guide of Official Ubuntu Book?
[20:56] <pleia2> if the license allows for it
[20:58] <pleia2> if the license doesn't allow for any of it to be duplicated, it can be referenced though
[20:58] <pleia2> we can say "for more reading - check out $awesome_resource"
[20:58] <pleia2> < yos> question: I'm new to ubuntu and I don't have any special skills however, I have a lot of free time on my hands...is there anything I can do to contribute?
[20:59] <pleia2> great question! one of the things we need is reviewers for some of the material who will actually learn from it
[20:59] <pleia2> you can review it and tell us if it makes sense to you, as someone new to the material :)
[20:59] <pleia2> you can also help flesh out our outlines, link to documentat that you love and find helpful
[20:59] <pleia2> and now I have to wrap up this session
[20:59] <pleia2> thank you everyone! hope to see some new faces over in #ubuntu-learning :)
[21:00] <kees> pleia2: thanks!
[21:00] <kees> Hello!
[21:01] <kees> so, if I understand correctly, discussion and questions are in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[21:01] <kees> I'll be watching in there for stuff marked with QUESTION:  so feel free to ask away.  :)
[21:01] <kees> this session is a relatively quick overview on ways to try to keep software more secure when you're writing it.
[21:01] <kees> I kind of think of it as a "best-pratices" review.
[21:02] <kees> given that there is a lot of material in this area, I try to talor my topics to langauges people are familiar with.
[21:02] <kees> as a kind of "show of hands", out of HTML, JavaScript, C, C++, Perl, Python, Ruby, SQL, what are people familiar with?  (just shout out on the -chat channel)
[21:03] <kees> 21:02 < openweek1_> QUESTION: will this presentation be language specific?
[21:03] <kees> some of it will be, but I'm trying to tailor the examples to stuff people are familiar with
[21:03] <kees> there are some "general" best-practices that apply to any language, which I'll cover first
[21:04] <kees> 21:03 < openweek5__> NONE - where do start?
[21:04] <kees> I find that programming is easiest to learn when you find something specific you want to change.  so in that case, learn the language of the project you want to change/improve.  :)
[21:05] <kees> okay, cool, looks like a pretty wide variety.  :)
[21:06] <kees> I'm adapting this overview from some slides I used to give at talk at the Oregon State University.
[21:06] <kees> you can find that here: http://outflux.net/osu/oss-security.odp
[21:06] <kees> the main thing about secure coding is to take an "offensive" attitude when testing your software.
[21:06] <kees> if you think to yourself "the user would never type _that_", then you probably want to rethink it.  :)
[21:07] <kees> I have two opposing quotes: "given enough eyeballs all bugs are shallow" - Eric Raymond, and "most people ... don't explicitly look for security bugs" - John Viega
[21:07] <kees> I think both are true -- if enough people start thinking about how their code could be abused by some bad-guy, we'll be better able to stop them.
[21:07] <kees> so, when I say "security", what do I mean?
[21:08] <kees>  mean a bug with how the program functions that allows another person to change the behavior against the desire of the main user
[21:08] <kees> ^I
[21:08] <kees> if someone can read all my cookies out of firefox, that's bad.
[21:08] <kees> if someone can become root on my server, that's bad, etc.
[21:08] <kees> so, I tend to limit this overview to stuff like gaining access, reading or writing someone else's data, causing outages, etc.
[21:09] <kees> there are plenty of other security topics (permissions, role separation, MAC, etc etc).  but I'm trying to show how to avoid security bugs.
[21:10] <kees> I'll start with programming for the web.
[21:10] <kees> when handling input in CGIs, etc, it needs to be carefully handled.
[21:10] <kees> the first example of mis-handling input is "Cross Site Scripting" ("XSS").
[21:10] <kees> if someone puts <b>hi</b> in some form data, and the application returns exactly that, then the bad-guy can send arbitrary HTML
[21:10] <kees> output needs to be filtered for html entites.
[21:10] <kees> luckily, a lot of frameworks exist for doing the right thing: Catalyst (Perl), Smarty (PHP), Django (Python), Rail (Ruby).
[21:11] <kees> e.g. http://research.outflux.net/demo/sql-bad.cgi  putting in  <blink>blah</blind>  as the password, and after submit, it's blinking
[21:12] <kees> if you use  http://research.outflux.net/demo/sql-better.cgi  you'll see it gets escaped
[21:12] <kees> another issue is Cross Site Request Forgery (CSRF).
[21:12] <kees> the issue here is that HTTP was designed so that "GET" (urls) would be for reading data, and "POST" (forms) would be used for changing data.
[21:12] <kees> if back-end data changes as a result of a "GET", you may have a CSRF.
[21:12] <kees> I have a demo of this here: http://research.outflux.net/demo/csrf.html
[21:12] <kees> imdb.com lets users add "favorite" movies to their lists.
[21:12] <kees> but it operates via a URL http://imdb.com/rg/title-gold/mymovies/mymovies/list?pending&add=0113243
[21:12] <kees> so, if I put that URL on my website, and you're logged into imdb, I can make changes to your imdb account.
[21:13] <kees> as a result, it should use POST forms, not GET or direct URLs
[21:13] <kees> (or use form "nonces", though I won't go into that for the moment)
[21:14] <kees> another form of input validation is SQL.
[21:14] <kees> if SQL queries aren't escaped, you can end up in odd situations
[21:14] <kees> for example:    SELECT secret FROM users WHERE password = '$password'
[21:14] <kees> with that SQL, what happens if the supplied password is    ' OR 1=1 --
[21:14] <kees> SELECT secret FROM users WHERE password = '' OR 1=1 --'
[21:15] <kees> it'll be true and will allow logging in.
[21:15] <kees> my rule of thumb is to _always_ use the SQL bindings that exist for your language, and to never attempt to manually escape strings.
[21:16] <kees> every language will have a good way to pass variables into SQL
[21:16] <kees> for perl
[21:16] <kees> my $query = $self->{'dbh'}->prepare(
[21:16] <kees>     "SELECT secret FROM users
[21:16] <kees>      WHERE password = ?");
[21:16] <kees> $query->execute($password);
[21:16] <kees> this lets the SQL library you're using do the escaping.  it's easier to maintain, and it's much safer in the long-run.
[21:16] <kees> some examples of SQL injection issues are here too: http://research.outflux.net/demo/sql-bad.cgi
[21:17] <kees> try that with the password as   ' OR 1=1 --    and you'll see the "secret"  :)
[21:17] <kees> 21:17 < playya_> QUESTION: what about prepared statements?
[21:18] <kees> that's basically another way to say "bound variables", IIUC.  in the above perl example, $query is a prepared query, and gets execute with the $password variable
[21:18] <kees> static SQL and program variables should never mix -- using prepared statements/bound variables should always be used.
[21:19] <kees> another thing about web coding is to think about where files live
[21:19] <kees> yet another way around the sql-bad.cgi example is to just download the SQLite database it's using.
[21:20] <kees> so, either keeping files out the documentroot, or protecting them: http://research.outflux.net/demo/htaccess-better
[21:20] <kees> moving from web to more language agnostic stuff ...
[21:20] <kees> when your need to use "system()", go find a better method.
[21:20] <kees> if you're constructing a system()-like call with a string, you'll run into problems.  you always want to implement this with an array.
[21:20] <kees> python's subprocess.call() for example.
[21:20] <kees> this stops the program from being run in a shell (where arguments may be processes or split up)
[21:20] <kees> for example, http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/system.pl
[21:20] <kees> no good: system("ls -la $ARGV[0]");
[21:21] <kees> better: system("ls","-la",$ARGV[0]);
[21:21] <kees> best: system("ls","-la","--",$ARGV[0]);
[21:21] <kees> in array context, the arguments are passed directly.  in string context, the first argument may be processed in other ways by the shell.
[21:22] <kees> if the first argument is  ;cat /etc/passwd     then the first runs   ls -la ;cat /etc/passwd   and the shell splits it into two commands
[21:23] <kees> in the latter, "ls" gets an argument of ";cat /etc/passwd" which isn't a valid file name, and it correctly screams about it
[21:23] <kees> and "--" is used to indicate to ls that option arguments have finished to stop $ARGV[0] from leading with a "-" and having ls blow up again.
[21:24] <kees> handling temporary files is another area to be careful with.
[21:24] <kees> static files or files based on process id, etc, shouldn't be used since they are easily guessed.
[21:24] <kees> all languages have some kind of reasonable safe temp-file-creation method.
[21:24] <kees> File::Temp in perl, tempfile in python, "mktemp" in shell, etc.
[21:24] <kees> i.e. bad:  TEMPFILE="/tmp/kees.$$"
[21:24] <kees> good: TEMPFILE=$(mktemp -t kees-XXXXXX)
[21:24] <kees> examples of this as well as a pid-racer are in http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/
[21:25] <kees> programmers should think about the sensitivity of what they have in memory.  normally, it's not a big deal, but what about passwords?
[21:25] <kees> keep data that is normally encrypted out of memory.
[21:25] <kees> so things like passwords should be erased from memory (rather than just freed) once they're done being used
[21:25] <kees> example of this is http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/readpass.c
[21:25] <kees> once the password is done being used:
[21:25] <kees>     fclose(stdin);               // drop system buffers
[21:25] <kees>     memset(password,0,PASS_LEN); // clear out password storage memory
[21:25] <kees> then you don't have to worry about leaving it in core-dump files, etc
[21:26] <kees> if it's not cleared, it could hang around in memory.
[21:26] <kees> 21:26 < erUSUL> QUESTION: for passwords use mlocked mem ?
[21:27] <kees> this is an even better approach, yes.  this keeps the memory from ever being written to disk, in the case of swapping.
[21:27] <kees> note, however, that if you hibernate to an unencrypted partition, mlock() won't save you.  :(
[21:27] <kees> for details on mlock, see "man mlock".  (also note that there is only so much room for mlock memory)
[21:28] <kees> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/karmic/en/man3/mlock.3posix.html
[21:28] <kees> for encrypted communications, using SSL should actually check certificates.
[21:28] <kees> clients should use a Certificate Authority list (apt-get install ca-cerificates, and use /etc/ssl/certs)
[21:28] <kees> servers should get a certificate authority.
[21:28] <kees> the various SSL bindings will let you define a "check cert" option, which is, unfortunately, not on by default.  :(
[21:28] <kees> this is very language-specific, though, so it requires some level of research.  but SSL without cert checking isn't very protective.
[21:29] <kees> one item I mentioned early on as a security issue is blocking access to a service, usually through a denial of service.
[21:29] <kees> one accidental way to make a server program vulnerable to this is to use "assert()" or "abort()" in the code.
[21:29] <kees> normally, using asserts is a great habit to catch errors in client software.
[21:29] <kees> unfortunately, if an assert can be reached while you're processing network traffic, it'll take out the entire service.
[21:29] <kees> those kinds of programs should abort on if absolutely unable to continue (and should gracefully handle unexpected situations)
[21:30] <kees> switching over to C/C++ specific issues for a bit...
[21:30] <kees> one of C's weaknesses is its handling of arrays (and therefore strings).  since it doesn't have built-in boundary checking, it's up to the programmer to do it right.
[21:30] <kees> as a result, lengths of buffers should always be used when performing buffer operations.
[21:30] <kees> functions like strcpy, sprintf, gets, strcat should not be used, because they don't know how big a buffer might be
[21:30] <kees> using strncpy, snprintf, fgets, etc is much safer.
[21:30] <kees> though be careful you're measureing the right buffer.  :)
[21:30] <kees> char buf[80];
[21:30] <kees> strncpy(buf,argv[1],strlen(argv[1]))    is no good
[21:30] <kees> you need to use buf's len, not the source string.
[21:30] <kees> it's not "how much do I want to copy" but rather "how much space can I use?"
[21:31] <kees> since Ubuntu 8.10 (Intrepid), the compiler will attempt to fix up unsafe function usage with safe ones, if it can.
[21:31] <kees> 21:30 < playya_> QUESTION: isn't it better to loose a service for some time because of assert instead of having an owned machine?
[21:32] <kees> certainly, but the assert catches an issue -- the code should just say "oh dear" and drop the connection, etc.  i.e. graceful error handling instead of just shutting down.
[21:32] <kees> if there is genuinely no way to recover, then it makes sense to shut down.  but those situations are rare.
[21:32] <kees> another tiny glitch is with format strings.  printf(buffer);  should be done with  printf("%s", buffer);  otherwise, whatever is in buffer would be processes for format strings
[21:32] <kees> instead of "hello %x"  you'd get  "hello 258347dad"
[21:33] <kees> I actually have a user on my system named %x%x%n%n just so I can catch format string issues in Gnome more easily.  :)
[21:33] <kees> format strings get passed from high-level functions, though, so it's not always obvious.
[21:34] <kees> gtk's dialogs, for example, will call sprintf on passed buffers, so those dialogs should use  "%s", msg);  instead of  msg);
[21:34] <kees> since Ubuntu 8.10 (Intrepid), the compiler will yell about possible format string issues, so those warnings are good to pay attention to.
[21:35] <kees> (for more details on the security features of the C compiler, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags )
[21:35] <kees> 21:34 < kennethvenken> QUESTION: are there tools that check for these kind of pitfalls?
[21:35] <kees> the compiler is in the best position to do it, so that's where I've spent the most time looking
[21:36] <kees> the last bit to go over for C in this overview is calculating memory usage.
[21:36] <kees> (this actually applies to C++ too)
[21:36] <kees> if you're about to allocate memory for something, where did the size come from?
[21:36] <kees> malloc(x * y)  could wrap around an "int" value and result in less than x * y being allocated.
[21:36] <kees> this one is less obvious, but the example is here: http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/alloc.c
[21:36] <kees> malloc(5 * 15) will be safe, but what about malloc<PHONE_NUMBER> * 10)
[21:37] <kees> checking for this is simple, but many people aren't in a habit of testing for it:
[21:37] <kees>     if (x >= (INT_MAX / y - 1) ) {  ....
[21:37] <kees>     x=atoi(argv[1]);
[21:37] <kees>     y=atoi(argv[2]);
[21:37] <kees> that "if" will be true when  x * y  would overflow and wrap back around.
[21:38] <kees> C++ has a similar issue with the "new" operator, when allocating an array of objects
[21:38] <kees> if an object is "x" bytes big, and you need an array "y" long, this is effectively doing a  malloc( x * y ) all over again.
[21:38] <kees> so, the biggest thing to help defend against these various glitches is testing.
[21:39] <kees> try putting HTML into form data, URLs, etc
[21:39] <kees> see what kinds of files are written in /tmp
[21:39] <kees> try putting giant numbers through allocations
[21:39] <kees> put format strings as inputs
[21:39] <kees> try to think about how information is entering a program, and how that data is formulated.
[21:39] <kees> 21:39 < erUSUL> QUESTION: Do not most people use malloc wrappers to avoid this kind of things like xmalloc ?
[21:39] <kees> it'd be nice if it was more of a standard practice, yes.
[21:39] <kees> the xmalloc's I've seen just check return codes, though, they don't validate the math.
[21:40] <kees> i.e.  xmalloc(x * y) still has the same problem.
[21:40] <kees> something like xallow_array(x, y) which then did the INT_MAX tests would be better.  (this is what image libraries have moved to do it, since they're constantly allocating 2d buffers, etc)
[21:40] <kees> there are a lot of unit-test frameworks (python-unit, Test::More, CxxTest, check)
[21:41] <kees> give them a try.  :)
[21:41] <kees> writing tests is great for finding bugs in general (and security bugs too)
[21:41] <kees> as for projects in general, it's great if a few days during a development cycle can be dedicated to looking for security issues.
[21:42] <kees> that's about it from me; it was a quick overview.  :)
[21:43] <kees> I've left some time for questions, if there are any?
[21:43] <kees> anything about secure coding, security in ubuntu, security in general?
[21:43] <kees> I can also answer questions about video formats and ubuntu development processes.  ;)
[21:44] <kees> 21:44 < amik> any particualr dangers in Java (other than sql stuff)?
[21:45] <kees> I don't know of any language-specific issues with Java, but the all the stanard stuff (tempfiles, ssl, etc) applies.
[21:45] <kees> 21:45 < jtatum> QUESTION: can you recommend any reading material for various types of security testing?
[21:46] <kees> specific to testing, it's a little iffy.  security testing tends to either fall into "software testing" or "pentration testing", which can be very different things.
[21:46] <kees> as for books, I recommend:
[21:46] <kees> Secure Programming Cookbook for C and C++ by Viega, Messier
[21:46] <kees> The Art of Software Security Assessment by Dowd, McDonald, Schuh
[21:46] <kees> Fuzzing for Software Security Testing and Quality Assurance by Takanen, DeMott, Miller
[21:46] <kees> and for online, Secure Programming for Linux and Unix HOWTO by David Weeler http://www.dwheeler.com/secure-programs/
[21:46] <kees> 21:45 < sebsebseb> QUESTION: Apparantly  OpenBSD is the most secure OS is this true?
[21:47] <kees> this obviously depends on one's definition of "most secure OS".  At DefCon in CTF, considered by some to be the most dangerous network in the world, the organizers traditionally use OpenBSD.
[21:48] <kees> that said, OpenBSD sure misses a lot of features I like to use on my desktop.  :)
[21:48] <kees> 21:46 < kennethvenken> 'QUESTION: what kind of code analysis techniques are applied to source code written for ubuntu?
[21:49] <kees> there is no specific code analysis that happens for all ubuntu software, but lots of people use a lot of different systems to doing code analysis.
[21:49] <kees> for example, coverity runs their tests frequently, "sparse" is used on the linux kernel.
[21:50] <kees> when I do audits, it's a combination of manual investigation (looking at how data passes through the code) and looking at the build logs to see what the compiler is screaming about with the various warnings for format strings, unchecked return codes, etc.
[21:50] <kees> 21:49 < openweek1_> QUESTION: some python specific materials about security programing?
[21:50] <kees> I don't have anything handy, though I think David Wheeler's website has good general stuff in it
[21:51] <kees> 21:50 < amik> QUESTION: any thoughts on how to get developers to get into the 'defensive security' state of mind in daily work?
[21:51] <kees> this is, I think, a matter of making people more paranoid.  ;)  thinking about how software can be misused is key.
[21:51] <kees> that said, it is sometimes very hard to do this when coding to a dealine, etc.
[21:51] <kees> 21:51 < sebsebseb> kees: What's CTF  and Defcon?   well  Defcon is I guess some kind of security conference or somethign
[21:52] <kees> sorry, I should have explained that more.  DefCon in an annual computer security conference (it follows the more corporate "Blackhat" conference).  CTF is Capture the Flag, a challenge that runs the entire conference where teams try to break into eachother's systems to earn points.
[21:52] <kees> great fun.  :)
[21:53] <kees> 21:53 < kennethvenken> QUESTION: are you Dutch? ;) I'm from Belgium
[21:54] <kees> I'm half-dutch (hence my americanized last name "Cook").  I'm named after my grandfather.  :)
[21:55] <kees> thank you everyone for listening!
[21:55] <kees> I'll clear out of the way now.  if other questions pop to mind, feel free to catch me on freenode or via email @ubuntu.com.  thanks!
[22:00] <Riddell> Good evening friends
[22:00] <Riddell> Getting KDE 4 ready for LTS
[22:00] <Riddell> this will be a bit of a ramble about Kubuntu and KDE 4
[22:00] <Riddell> anyone here to listen?
[22:01] <Riddell> awooga
[22:01] <Riddell> and yes, you need to reply in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, this channel is special
[22:01] <Riddell> KDE 4 has been a long journey.  I mean pure dead long.  And we're no there yet.
[22:01] <Riddell> But nearly
[22:02] <Riddell> World domination is around the corner
[22:02] <Riddell> it's very exciting
[22:02] <Riddell> My first KDE conference was in 2003 and we were talking about KDE 4 then
[22:02] <Riddell> You see, at the time KDE was good
[22:02] <Riddell> Some people had planned to make a free software desktop environment and had succeeded.
[22:02] <Riddell> There was a desktop shell, a web browser, a file manager, a kick arse music player.    Incremental improvements on what KDE was wouldn't cut it.  We had to take a long term view and make something rocking.
[22:04] <Riddell> As it happens we had a good technical foundation to make something rocking on top of, the Qt library, which was being re-written for the multi-platform bling enabled world of the next decade
[22:04] <Riddell> Qt 4 came along and that allowed a whole lot more to be done with desktop applications.  It could make them beautiful.
[22:04] <Riddell> Qt 4 is a big step in taking over the world.  When compositing came along people thought that was beautiful but it only added beauty between the applications.  To have a truely beautiful desktop you need a powerful toolkit which can make beauty easy.  Fortunately Qt 4 does that
[22:05] <Riddell> So KDE had to be rewritten and this took some time.  It had to be made cross platform, easy to programme for complex things and most of all it had to be beautiful
[22:05] <Riddell> and when I say beautiful, artwork is a big part of that, but it's a whole user experience
[22:06] <Riddell> Needless to say this affected Kubuntu a lot
[22:06] <Riddell> Kubuntu is a KDE distro.  We believe that KDE is the best desktop platform and so the best distribution can be made from KDE
[22:06] <Riddell> Our hope is to make KDE shine
[22:07] <Riddell> which will make lots of happy users
[22:07] <Riddell> So back in hardy time KDE 4.0 was launched
[22:07] <Riddell> This was not perfect timing because 4.0 was a complete rewrite and as such missed a lot of the stuff which had been there before.  It was a lot more beautiful but that's not great when you can't play your music.
[22:08] <Riddell> or whatever the important thing is for you that's critical but missing
[22:09] <Riddell> 4.0 came out when it did because it had been ages in the making and open source needs people to release often
[22:09] <Riddell> else the developers get bored
[22:09] <Riddell> and you don't want that, then they'll go getting boyfriends and girlfriends and stop doing important things like coding
[22:10] <Riddell> this ment our development at hardy time was split between KDE 3 and 4
[22:10] <Riddell> which isn't ideal for an LTS which needs all your quality assurance attention
[22:10] <Riddell> so it wasn't an LTS, which was sad
[22:11] <Riddell> akgraner: any questions?
[22:11] <akgraner> slacker_nl> QUESTION: so 4.0 got released because of social activities of developers ;)
[22:12] <Riddell> it got released because if you're developing in the open source way you need feedback and eventually you need more feedback than a beta will give you
[22:12] <Riddell> there were plenty of warning that 4.0 would eat your babies but probably not enough
[22:13] <Riddell> but we did have KDE 3 and 4 available as sebsebseb points out so there was an option for everyone
[22:14] <Riddell> 4.0 was pretty but it wasn't beautiful for users.  however for developers it was, the new APIs and pillars of KDE available were a big improvement on what was there before
[22:14] <Riddell> Kubuntu now has an LTS coming up again
[22:15] <Riddell> Lucid will be released in April and it will be LTS for Kubuntu
[22:15] <Riddell> that means it has to be good enough that people can run it at their work or in a public library or whatever and should they need to call Canonical to get help the guys in Montreal can answer without banging their heads on their desks
[22:16] <Riddell> the last 18 months of KDE development has been making sure all the gaps are filled which need to be filled for users
[22:16] <Riddell> this has included some significant gaps
[22:16] <Riddell> stuff like network connection is annoying if it's missing
[22:17] <Riddell> and because Kubuntu is a KDE distribution and sticks closely to KDE, whenever KDE has a gap, that means we get one too
[22:17] <Riddell> which hurts a lot for say, network connection
[22:18] <Riddell> there's other issues like that which need to be filled
[22:18] <Riddell> fortunately the important ones are getting filled
[22:19] <Riddell> network manager is working well for most cases, bluetooth has a new maintainer, we wrote printer management tools etc
[22:19] <Riddell> but that does all have to be polished for the LTS, which often involves buying beers for the relevent KDE developers
[22:19] <Riddell> akgraner: questions?
 QUESTION: how many users use kubuntu-desktop? (think this data is available with the popularity-contest package)
[22:20] <Riddell> honestly no idea
[22:20] <Riddell> you could get a relative percentage from popularity contest but I've not looked at it for a while
[22:20] <Riddell> I expect it's gone down since KDE 3 days
[22:20] <Riddell> KDE 4 has been a painful but necessary journey as I say
 QUESTION: Is anyone looking into Ubuntu One integration with for example Akonadi?
[22:20] <Riddell> and I expect that once KDE 4 has all the gaps filled in, it'll take over the world!
 QUESTION: what direction will kubuntu take with regards to the Software center and kpackagekit?
[22:22] <Riddell> sandsmark: yes but not enough for it to be packaged
[22:22] <Riddell> till adams did an akonadi plugin to get akonadi talking to the couchdb address book from ubuntu one
[22:22] <Riddell> but I don't think it got completed to the extent it would be useful for users
[22:22] <Riddell> so anyone who wants to pick that up and run with it would be most welcome
[22:23] <Riddell> slacker_nl: at the moment we're using kpackagekit because it's an upstream project and that means we don't have to maintain our own application
[22:23] <Riddell> as a smallish limited team we don't really have the resoures to be maintaining large applications on our own, we're much better at packaging and integrating other people's apps
[22:24] <Riddell> software centre is a nice UI, which I find kpackagekit's UI could benefit from being simplified in various ways
[22:24] <Riddell> but I havn't seen any new features in it, I think it's just a new UI
[22:25] <akgraner> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 slacker_nl: popcon.ubuntu.com
 jpds: didn't know the data was publicly available
 will have a look
 akgraner: hum, how does one retract questions? :-P
[22:25] <akgraner> * Randomtime<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[22:25] <Riddell> I expect we'll stick with kpackagekit, it has notable flaws like not being able to warn before installed unsigned packages but that's being fixed now
 slacker_nl: not in a very good format but the raw data is there.
[22:25] <akgraner> * chorse<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[22:25] <akgraner> * d00rm4n has quit (Client Quit)
[22:25] <akgraner> * ulysses__<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has left #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 sandsmark, just let me know before I post them..:-)
 jpds: i see
[22:25] <akgraner> * openweek5_ (i=d07f021d@gateway/web/freenode/x-67ed6d970d921557) has joined #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 QUESTION: what percentage of canonical resources are given to kubuntu? how much can u actually get done?
[22:25] <akgraner> sorry I grabbed to much////
[22:26] <Riddell> I doubt you can put a percentage on what canonical gives kubuntu
[22:26] <Riddell> there's me on the desktop team, agateau on the experience team, and a lot of time given irregiarly from others on the Platform team
[22:26] <Riddell> then there's shipit which is very very expensive
[22:26] <Riddell> and the server hosting and whatnot
[22:27] <Riddell> it all adds up to a lot, but I can't put a figure on it
[22:27] <Riddell> so where was I?
[22:27] <Riddell> oh yes, I was saying that KDE 4 had gaps which are being filled
[22:27] <Riddell> and that it's the best platform
[22:27] <Riddell> Kubuntu also has issues
[22:28] <Riddell> we're a rocking team of beautiful people
[22:28] <Riddell> but we're not perfect
[22:28] <Riddell> we've had a lot of bad rep from our translations for example, our translations go through launchpad and for various reasons that has caused problems which understandly annoys people
[22:29] <Riddell> we also package every release of KDE and major apps like KOffice as backports, but that takes a lot of QA which sometimes hasn't been done well enough
[22:30] <Riddell> sometimes we add patches to KDE which havn't been tested enough or which add new strings which then aren't translated
[22:30] <Riddell> there's good reasons for doing all the above, but when they cause problems that annoys people and quite rightly so
[22:30] <Riddell> so with an LTS coming up it's time to review such practices and kick them into shape
[22:31] <Riddell> some of our more beautiful Kubuntu developers have written a document called.. Project Timelord
[22:31] <Riddell> which is the sort of name that only apachelogger could come up with
[22:32] <Riddell> at UDS and over the next cycle or three we'll be working hard to make sure our QA is kept high so that now KDE 4 is coming into its own as a world beating platform
[22:32] <Riddell> .. we'll be best able to take that platform to the users
[22:32] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
[22:32] <akgraner> mmiicc> QUESTION: Does KDE get any help from Nokia?
[22:33] <Riddell> well Nokia funds Qt development and KDE is built on Qt, so that's a multi million euro help there
[22:33] <Riddell> they hire a couple of KDE developers and sponsor KDE conferences and developer sprints
[22:34] <Riddell> they also give jobs to a lot of KDE developers who go on to work on Qt (which is a mixed blessing since they often stop doing so much KDE stuff)
[22:34] <Riddell> of course Nokia's interest in KDE and Qt is self serving, they want to own the best platform for cross desktop development so that people know and love Qt
[22:35] <Riddell> and they want that working on their phones so people know and love developing for Nokia phones
[22:35] <Riddell> which is all quite mutially compatible with KDE so we're happy with the setup
 QUESTION:  Is it possible to get  a little sound on  KDE 4's  KDM,  like the old GDM found in 9.04 and earlier.   Yes sound when it first loads up or a username and password isn't  put in properly.   I don't like GDM 2, because it can't be themed like the old one,  so  I will use KDM to replace it now that it looks good with a blue bubble theme, unlike the KDE 3 version.
[22:35] <Riddell> and Qt is now LGPL and open source style-developped so that's great
[22:37] <Riddell> sebsebseb: hmm, I don't think there's any code in KDM for sound.  it would be easy to add because KDE's Phonon API makes it very easy to do that, although I don't know if upstream would be interested
[22:37] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: Thank you and the Kubuntu team for such great work on the Netbook Edition. How can one help with the development of the Netbook remix?
[22:37] <Riddell> this is the topic I was just coming to
[22:38] <Riddell> free software is taking off in interesting ways and netbooks are one of the most interesting
[22:38] <Riddell> Microsoft's illegal monopoly practices have made it very hard for linux to get onto laptops, but netbooks are allowing that to happen
[22:39] <Riddell> the Plasma team (who make KDE's desktop shell application) have been working on a netbook interface
[22:39] <Riddell> and we put that into our netbook edition of Kubuntu which came out with 9.10
[22:39] <Riddell> we have a good partnership with upsteam there
[22:39] <Riddell> upstream didn't get it all working for 4.3 so there are some gaps that need filled
[22:40] <Riddell> and of course for Kubuntu we need people packaging, bug triaging, testing, all the tasks that Kubuntu's normal desktop edition needs
[22:40] <Riddell> you can join us in #kubuntu-netbook to help out
[22:40] <Riddell> or talk to the plasma guys to help out on the user interface
[22:40] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
[22:41] <akgraner> amik> QUESTION: how is KDE doing in general in the linux world as compared to GNOME?
[22:41] <Riddell> well, this is a question filled with political pitfalls
[22:41] <Riddell> Gnome is a fine desktop, it's doing well, but is it taking over the world?
[22:41] <Riddell> maybe a bit, but not enough
[22:42] <Riddell> KDE has gone through this re-write process to help it take over the world, and that's not complete, but any day now it will be, and then we'll rule!
[22:42] <Riddell> as a developer, KDE has the best platform to write for.  as a user you can pick what works best
[22:43] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: What's the nokia-pim-suite in KDE svn: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/nokia-pim-suite/
[22:43] <Riddell> not a skoobie
[22:43] <Riddell> I guess it's something mobile related but I've not heard of that before
[22:44] <Riddell> kdepim is still going through the KDE 4 process
[22:44] <Riddell> the apps are ported to KDE 4 but most aren't ported to akonadi, the new data management server
[22:44] <Riddell> so there's loads of activity going on there
[22:44] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: what does kubuntu needs more, testers, bug triagers or packagers?
[22:45] <Riddell> a bit of everything
[22:45] <Riddell> it just depends on the time, today for example we've been packaging KDE 4.3.3
[22:45] <Riddell> so more packaging would be good there
[22:45] <Riddell> but now we'll need testers for those packages
[22:46] <Riddell> so more testers wanted there
[22:46] <Riddell> and once the packages are out people will report bugs and we'll need quick bug triagers to sort out the important ones from those
[22:46] <Riddell> join us in #kubuntu-devel to help :)
[22:46] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: Any changes KDE & Gnome will join their resources to become the One Desktop to Rule Them All? Say 5, 10 years from now?
[22:47] <Riddell> that's not really technically possible, you'd need to rewrite Gnome in Qt and I don't think there's much appetite for that
[22:47] <Riddell> it's a shame we have this desktop split, it's a horrible waste of resources
[22:47] <Riddell> but well, KDE was here first :)
[22:47] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: I haven't tried Kubuntu yet, (plan to run it in a VM soon). What are, in your opinion the major benefits with KDE in user experience over GNOME? What do you think of the new GNOME Shell?
[22:48] <Riddell> as a sweeping generalisation KDE is better integrated, it has more robust technical grounding and often has more options for users
[22:49] <Riddell> but for the most part you can just run the apps you find work best for you, it's up to us KDE developers to make sure you care about our apps :)
[22:49] <Riddell> I've not seen Gnome shell, I've only heard Ubuntu Desktop developers say "it's a disaster" but they could well be wrong
[22:50] <Riddell> akgraner: any more?
[22:50] <akgraner> not yet..
 QUESTION: when will we see Gubuntu with KDE taking over?
[22:51] <Riddell> once all the gaps in KDE 4 are filled
[22:51] <Riddell> although I'm more interested in taking over windows and mac than I am gnome
[22:51] <Riddell> that's where the real market share is
[22:51] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: what is the ppa for kde packages (for lucid/karmic)?
[22:52] <Riddell> our PPAs are under the ~kubuntu-ppa team in launchpad
[22:52] <Riddell> we have an experimental one for crazy stuff, a staging one where we build packages and a backports one for releasing updates
[22:52] <Riddell> currently staging has 4.3.3 building away, you could try to install it to test it but it's not complete so it may well not install or it may break stuff, that's the fun of testing
[22:53] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: any thoughts on timelord?
[22:53] <Riddell> I think I gave some thoughts above, it covers a lot of our important issues
[22:54] <Riddell> it doesn't give answers to everything, the branding and marketing question is something that's not easy to conclude
[22:54] <Riddell> I sympathise but mostly disagree with stopping using rosetta, but the rest is about where I think we want to be going
[22:55] <Riddell> akgraner: next?
 QUESTIONS: what work remains to be done in KDE until they catch up with themselves? (for lack of a better phrase...)
[22:56] <Riddell> network management isn't complete.  there's an update coming along with KDE 4.3.3 which should fix support for VPNs and GSM but there's probably more to be done there
[22:56] <Riddell> I need to finish the printing management stuff
[22:56] <Riddell> kpackagekit needs porting to the new policykit to get new features and the UI could be improved a lot
[22:56] <Riddell> bluetooth I mentioned
[22:57] <Riddell> there's no ibus frontend which means no same CKJ integration, and oriental people quite like being able to write on their computers
[22:58] <Riddell> akgraner: all done?
[22:58] <akgraner> yep I believe so..
[22:59] <Riddell> so in conclusion, KDE 4 is going to take over the world.  it's a long hard job this and we're still getting there
[22:59] <Riddell> but it's the best platform and that is turning into the best desktop
[22:59] <Riddell> all helpers welcome in #kubuntu-devel
[23:00] <Riddell> and remember: by becoming a Kubuntu developer you automatically become good looking
[23:00] <Riddell> thanks for listening
[23:01] <Riddell> < rhkfin> QUESTION: does KDE have a community manager, if, who?
[23:01] <Riddell> not that I know of, one of the charms of KDE is it's quite non-heirarchical and everybody gets on well with everyone else with very few exceptions, it's a great community to be in
[23:12] <freezenode> interesting class
[23:15] <sebsebseb>
[23:16] <sebsebseb> bye bye channel mute for now :D
[23:16] <sebsebseb> :)
[23:16] <sebsebseb>
[23:17] <Sertse> weee!
[23:17] <slacker_nl> night all
[23:18] <sebsebseb> slacker_nl: bye
[23:21] <jcastro> whoops
[23:22]  * jcastro whistles
[23:22] <Solarion> heh
[23:22] <Solarion> there should be a perl script for this
[23:23] <sebsebseb> jcastro: What are  the allow messages from outside and   no messages from outside  modes anyway?
[23:23] <jcastro> I dunno
[23:23] <Solarion> plus a perl script to use something like festival to make it into a podcast or to actively listen instead of read
[23:23] <jcastro> hah, that would be fun to listen to
[23:24] <Solarion> there's probably an irc module for python too, if yer inta that
[23:24] <sebsebseb> jcastro: I was just thinking it's Freenode a network, where ops aren't meant to be shown all the time in a channel really
[23:24] <Solarion> could even make it all gooey
[23:24] <jcastro> sebsebseb, dunno, I usually fiddle enough buttons to get the job done
[23:24] <sebsebseb> jcastro: for what modes?
[23:25] <jcastro> just the +m usually
[23:25] <jcastro> that n was an accident
[23:25] <jcastro> I don't even know what that does
[23:25] <Solarion> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
[23:25] <Solarion> channel +n?
[23:26] <jcastro> I think so
[23:26] <Solarion> in irc, you send messages to the channel
[23:26] <Solarion> if you're clever, you can /msg #channel message
[23:26] <Solarion> even if you're not on it
[23:26] <Solarion> I think that shuts that option down
[23:26] <jcastro> that makes sense
[23:26] <Solarion> has been a while since I telnetted to port 6667. :)
[23:27] <Solarion> (so I may have forgotten or mis-remember)
[23:27] <Solarion> jcastro: try /msg #testchannel-1230 foo
[23:29] <Solarion> also worth noting is that banning without kicking will silence someone. :)
[23:30] <sebsebseb> Solarion: What's 6667 and why you doing telnet?
[23:30] <Solarion> sebsebseb: a default ircd port
[23:31] <Solarion> telnetting to a port will let you talk directly to whatever's listening
[23:31] <sebsebseb> default IRC server port ok
[23:31] <Solarion> telnet mailserver 25 will send mail, if you can talk SMTP and you don't hit its filters
[23:33] <joaopinto> Solarion, who doesn't ;)
[23:33] <Solarion> heh
[23:47] <crlosdniel> hi
[23:57] <seth556> hello
[23:57] <ezzieyguywuf> hi
[23:58] <seth556> what is 1500 utc in est?
[23:58] <aim1159> seth556: that's 3 p.m. Greenwich time.
[23:58] <jrwren_> 10am
[23:58] <seth556> ok thanks
[23:58] <jrwren_> EST is -5 UTC
[23:58] <aim1159> seth556: you can go to timeanddate.com and check over there
[23:59] <jpds> Or you can run: "date; date -u" in a terminal.
[23:59] <lmentop_> if you download the ical file and load it into a calendar app it will set all the times to your local time as long as you have your timezone set up


[06:03] <Kilos> hi Tonberry et al
[06:03] <Kilos> môre nuvolari
[06:38] <inetpro> .
[09:05] <queery> morning all
[09:05] <queery> Maaz, coffee on
[09:05]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[09:06] <queery> Maaz, coffee for all
[09:06] <Maaz> Come on ya buncha geeks. Rock up with your mugs with the correct amount of sugar added already
[09:09] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for queery!
[09:10] <queery> Maaz, ty
[09:10] <Maaz> You are welcome queery
[11:19] <kbmonkey> goodday
[13:39] <nlsthzn> o/
[18:01] <Kilos> lo superfly and others
[18:01] <Kilos> superfly, et al is all others in latin?
[18:02] <Kilos> im sure i should know what language it is
[18:02] <Kilos> hi Mezenir
[18:02] <Kilos> lo Owkkuri
[18:02] <Owkkuri> hallo Kilos
[18:02] <Kilos> hiya nlsthzn hows things in ahab land
[18:04] <Kilos> hey drussell . all good?
[18:04] <drussell> Kilos: hey! Yeah all good thanks, how about you?
[18:04] <Kilos> fine ty
[18:05] <nlsthzn> Hi uncle Kilos and all... things are still nice and chilly thanks, and there?
[18:05] <Kilos> lekker warm here nlsthzn
[18:05] <nlsthzn> Ncie
[18:05] <nlsthzn> Nice even
[18:06] <Kilos> night temp of 19°
[18:06] <Kilos> day temp around 30°c
[18:06] <nlsthzn> We have had a few early mornings (3-4am) that have gone below 10degC....
[18:07] <Kilos> wow the ahabs musta frizzed
[18:07] <Kilos> you have a compose key nlsthzn ?
[18:08] <Kilos> hey Kerbero
[18:08] <Kerbero> hi
[18:08] <nlsthzn> compose key?
[18:08] <Kerbero> jip
[18:08] <Kilos> yeah for funny characters
[18:08] <superfly> Kilos: I don't know what language it is... likely either latin or french, but you're almost right, it means, "and all"
[18:08] <Kilos> oh you on winsucks
[18:09] <Kilos> ty superfly
[18:09] <Kilos> you well superfly and fami
[18:09] <Kilos> ly
[18:09] <Kilos> hehe
[18:09] <superfly> Kilos: ja
[18:09] <Kilos> tab doesnt work there
[18:09] <Kerbero> what character are you talking about?
[18:09] <Kilos> and the fly lavae
[18:10] <Kilos> °
[18:10] <Kerbero> o
[18:10] <Kerbero> ok
[18:10]  * nlsthzn doesn't use funny characters :p
[18:10] <Kilos> ha ha ha
[18:11] <Kerbero> lol
[18:11] <Kerbero> über schön
[18:11] <Kerbero> :P
[18:11] <Kilos> nlsthzn, how do you say goeie môre mense
[18:11] <Kerbero> sprachen ist sheiße ohne speziale charakters
[18:12] <Kerbero> more mense
[18:12] <Kerbero> is ook 100% geldige afrikaans
[18:12] <Kerbero> as ek lui is tik ek more
[18:12] <Kilos> nee man
[18:12] <Kerbero> anders môre ek net
[18:12] <Kilos> en sê wat
[18:13] <nlsthzn> As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم) is a traditional Muslim greeting, often translated as Peace be upon you.
[18:14] <Kilos> you dont use funny characters
[18:14] <Kilos> joke of the season
[18:16] <Kerbero> hehe
[18:25] <nlsthzn> lol
[18:25]  * nlsthzn is a master at wiki copy/paste
[18:25] <Kilos> hehe
[18:25] <Kilos> what is the afrikaans for lurkers
[18:26] <Kilos> those peeps we got lots of here
[18:26] <Kilos> hey zeref
[18:27] <Kilos> oh zeref-lappy
[18:34] <Kilos> see you all morrow time
[18:34] <Kilos> have a good evening and sleep lekker
[19:04] <Guest2307> halo


[05:22]  * n00b0er hello all anyone free to chat
[08:40]  * n00b0er Hi, how life been there for you ? i am wondering whether you would like to join our computer group  call [ 0day (xc) Our ] WhiteHat Hacker Dev and Team , is just chatting about life and computer science + social. https://discord.gg/tCHhq9EjSc .
[11:42]  * n00b0er Hi, how life been there for you ? i am wondering whether you would like to join our computer group  call [ 0day (xc) Our ] WhiteHat Hacker Dev and Team , is just chatting about life and computer science + social. https://discord.gg/tCHhq9EjSc .
[14:38] <xiaonaicang> /topic/


[05:08] <eruditehermit> hi
[05:08] <eruditehermit> is there a ppa for natty upstream linux kernels?
[05:18] <dtchen> eruditehermit: meaning kernels specifically with natty's kernel config, or...?
[05:21] <eruditehermit> dtchen, like kernel 3.0 rc5 that works with stuff in natty like module-init-tools etc
[05:22] <eruditehermit> dtchen, m-i-t and gcc might have changed in oneiric and so their kernels don't work with natty
[05:27] <dtchen> eruditehermit: well, the mainline ones work fine in natty
[05:27] <dtchen> (in fact, that's my biggest headache currently: the versioning of oneiric's kernels now don't allow some external modules to compile)
[05:41] <eruditehermit> dtchen, they won't install because module-init-tools in natty is too old
[06:52] <weidong> Hello, This is weidong zhou from Shanghai, China
[06:53] <weidong> I am new to ubuntu netbook distribution
[06:54] <weidong> and right now I am working on a ubuntu porting project for beaglebaord-xm ubuntu natty 11.04
[06:55] <weidong> we use a 7" 800x480 resolution TFT LCD for beagle board in this project so we have to revise the linux kernel DSS drivers to support it
[06:57] <weidong> my question is how can I get the specific linux kernel source for beagleboard natty 11.04?
[06:58] <weidong> I can only find the pre-built images on your distribution site.
[06:58] <weidong> but I can not find any links for source code
[06:59] <weidong> Any one can help?
[08:21] <Slayerman> Hello
[08:22] <Slayerman> I would like to know if there is a fix/patch for lucid for this bug : XHCI (USB 3.0) kernel Module Prevents Suspend (Bug #522998) ? Thx
[08:22] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 522998 in linux "XHCI (USB 3.0) kernel Module Prevents Suspend" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/522998
[08:27] <Slayerman> Yes, I already am on this page, but it's said "Won't Fix" for lucid! Is there a way to get usb3 suspend working on lucid ?
[08:28] <tjaalton> Slayerman: comment #50 should explain why that is
[08:53] <Slayerman> So I need to have kernel 2.6.37 in order to get usb3 suspend working ? but is there linux-image-2.6.37 for lucid ?
[08:56] <tjaalton> Slayerman: there probably is the natty kernel for lucid, which is based on .38.y
[08:57] <Slayerman> I just need to add ppa repo and then sudo apt-get install linux-headers-generic-lts-backport-natty linux-image-generic-lts-backport-natty ?
[08:58] <tjaalton> yeah, looks like it's not in the lucid repo yet
[08:58] <tjaalton> like the maverick kernel is
[09:00] <Slayerman> wich repo I need to use ?
[09:00] <Tommeh> Slayerman: is it not in the backports repo at all?
[09:03] <Slayerman> I don't know, I found this howto get 2.6.37 on lucid : http://ubuntuguide.net/install-latest-kernel-2-6-37-2-6-38-in-ubuntu-10-04-from-ppa is it the right way to do it ?
[09:16] <tjaalton> Slayerman: https://launchpad.net/~kernel-ppa/+archive/ppa?field.series_filter=lucid
[09:30] <Slayerman> Thank you very much !
[11:07] <ogasawara> bryceh: if you have a free moment, can you swing by the kernel room?
[11:12] <RAOF> ogasawara: Bryce isn't actually here; would I do?
[11:13] <ogasawara> RAOF: shoot, that's right.  Yes, if you're free that'd be great.
[11:14] <ogasawara> RAOF: just want to quickly chat about graphics bug workflow with respect to the kernel
[11:14] <RAOF> K.  I'll fire off a mesa build and wander down.
[11:15] <ogasawara> RAOF: cool, thanks
[13:51] <smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/634266/
[16:29] <lamont> herton: did you see my update on bug 791512?
[16:29] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 791512 in linux "tcp connections hang in forwarding machine" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791512
[16:31] <herton> lamont: yes, can you test the new kernel I posted there? tgardner suggested another change, so we can confirm it's not related to af_unix at all
[16:31] <lamont> sure
[17:13] <manjo> pgraner, if you are not terribly busy can I come bug you for 15 20 mts ?
[17:34] <cjwatson> jcrigby,lool: do you know what happened to most of the linux-linaro-{mx51,vexpress} udebs?  it looks like the kernel suddenly became a lot less modular or something - was that deliberate?  (I'm reviewing stuff in NEW)
[17:36] <jcrigby> cjwatson, for the new cycle we radically reduced the number of enabled CONFIG_* to start with
[17:37] <jcrigby> cjwatson, as time goes on we will see what stuff we really want to turn on
[17:38] <cjwatson> I'm just wondering whether d-i will actually build with that few udebs
[17:38] <cjwatson> vexpress in particular just has kernel-image ...
[17:38] <cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/634416/
[17:39] <jcrigby> cjwatson, good question, we have yet to actually build an image with these new stripped kernels
[17:39] <cjwatson> compare with http://paste.ubuntu.com/634417/
[17:40] <cjwatson> but if it's intentional, I can accept them as long as you guys commit to fixing the d-i build failures
[17:40] <jcrigby> we will fix them
[17:41] <jcrigby> we just wanted to start minimal and build up and begining of new cycle was good time to break things
[18:05] <lool> cjwatson: In my memory, all udebs are marked as "?" (optional) in d-i; which most should be because in Ubuntu we often build things in the kernel which Debian would build as modules
[18:05] <lool> cjwatson: In any case, I'm happy to look after d-i build failures
[18:38] <cjwatson> jcrigby,lool: ok, thanks
[20:52] <eruditehermit> hey, is there a ppa for mainline kernels on natty?
[20:52] <eruditehermit> the oneiric kernels require an upgraded module-init-tools from the version in natty