[06:07] <18WAFIP2Z> Morning everyone
[06:08] <inetpro> good morning 18WAFIP2Z
[06:08] <inetpro> and hi to everyone else
[06:12] <Symmetri1> morning
[06:24] <Kilos> hi superfly ThatGraemeGuy
[06:30] <superfly> hi Kilos
[06:32] <inetpro> good morning superfly, Kilos
[06:32] <Kilos> guten morgen mein her
[06:32] <superfly> hi inetpro
[06:32] <inetpro> s/her/herr/
[06:32] <superfly> morning ThatGraemeGuy
[06:35] <ThatGraemeGuy> morning everyone
[06:35] <Kilos> ya man him too
[06:35] <Kilos> sorry, think tank in sleep mode
[06:44] <bduk1> ietsie
[06:44] <Kilos> hi bduk1 mazal
[06:44] <mazal> Morning everyone , all of the best for 2014
[06:44] <bduk1> More almal
[06:45] <Kilos> ty same to you guys
[06:45] <mazal> Darem 'n nuwe LTS die jaar :)
[06:45] <mazal> Myne raak lank in die tand
[06:45] <Kilos> lol
[06:46] <mazal> Myne het WEER vanself gebreek oom
[06:46] <mazal> Ander dag doen ek updates , toe hy klaar is toe is my bootloader weg
[06:46] <Kilos> nee man
[06:46] <Squirm> Symmetri1: I have a mac address for someone who is attacking our proxy
[06:46] <Kilos> boot-repair fixes probs like that
[06:46] <Squirm> so I blackholed the address
[06:47] <Squirm> Symmetri1: any way I can take this further?
[06:47] <Kilos> looks like you and mage must get together Squirm
[06:48] <Kilos> their site was also compromised again
[06:48] <Kilos> and ddos attacks here last night
[06:49] <Kilos> new batch of clever kids with new toys
[06:50] <Squirm> meh
[06:51] <Squirm> it's annoying...
[06:51] <Kilos> yeah
[06:52] <Kilos> im using dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/tmp/cdimg1.iso to make an iso file of winme
[06:52] <Kilos> then wanna unetbootin to usb and try install that way
[06:54] <Squirm> Like I said, I've never been successful doing it that way. I've always had to use a CD
[06:55] <Kilos> you cant get cdroms anymore and mine packed up
[06:55] <Kilos> where does that dd command save the iso file to?
[06:57] <Squirm> oh
[06:57] <Squirm> I see
[06:57] <Squirm> to /tmp/cdimg1.iso
[06:57] <Kilos> ty
[06:57] <Squirm> of is the Output File
[06:58] <Squirm> if is the Input File
[06:58] <Squirm> you can change of to where you want it
[06:58] <Kilos> serious command that
[06:58] <Squirm> I use it almost daily
[06:59] <Kilos> oh yes now i see the path it uses
[06:59] <Squirm> /dev/sr0 would  be your cdrom
[06:59] <Kilos> yeah
[07:00] <Squirm> now, if you wanted to say write that ISO onto a Flash Drive, you'd use something like `dd =if=/tmp/cdimage1.iso of=/dev/sdb` where /dev/sdb is your flash drive
[07:00] <Squirm> dd if=/tmp/cdimage1.iso of=/dev/sdb
[07:01] <Kilos> cool ty so no need for unetbootin then?
[07:01] <Squirm> unetbootin is an easy way of doing that command
[07:01] <Kilos> whew the command is much easier than setting up unetbootin to do it
[07:06] <Squirm> turns out if I drop that mac address I did drop, it drops all my outgoing connections :/
[07:08] <Squirm> yet it's not my NIC's mac address
[07:08]  * Squirm kicks the internet for being full of children
[07:18] <Kilos> ouch
[07:23] <Kilos> nope Squirm that dd made stick dont
[07:25] <theblazehen> hi
[07:26] <Kilos> hi theblazehen
[07:32] <Vince-0> gosh darnit Monday
[07:34] <Kilos> hi Vince-0
[07:35] <Vince-0> Hi
[07:36] <theblazehen> hey Vince-0
[07:40] <Kilos> mazal, ek weet nie wat is fout by jou nie. my 12.04 is baie stabiel
[07:40] <Kilos> moes wine gebruik om dit seer te maak
[07:41] <mazal> Gee hom vir my , ek breek hom gou gou :P
[07:42] <ThatGraemeGuy> Squirm: if you're seeing a MAC address, it must be on your local network surely?
[07:42] <ThatGraemeGuy> you can't see MAC addresses for devices not on your local subnet
[07:43] <Kilos> mazal, wat breek?
[07:43] <Squirm> ThatGraemeGuy: using tcpdump?
[07:43] <Kilos> o ja bootloader
[07:43] <Kilos> install boot-repair
[07:43] <mazal> Daai stabiele 12.04 van oom
[07:43] <Kilos> you can even use it from live cd
[07:43] <Squirm> Kilos: boot-repair?
[07:44] <ThatGraemeGuy> Squirm: I'm not awesome at network stuff, but as far as I know you cannot know a devices MAC address if it isn't on the same physical network
[07:44] <Kilos> Maaz, google boot-repair for 12.04
[07:44] <Maaz> Kilos: "boot - How do I fix booting process in Ubuntu 12.04 after the ..." http://askubuntu.com/questions/321225/how-do-i-fix-booting-process-in-ubuntu-12-04-after-the-windows7-removed :: "Boot-Repair - Community Ubuntu Documentation" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Boot-Repair :: "How to Repair GRUB2 When Ubuntu Won't Boot" http://www.howtogeek.com/114884/how-
[07:44] <Maaz> to-repair-grub2-when-ubuntu-wont-boot/ :: "how to recovery/repair Linux Ubuntu 12.04 BootLo…
[07:44] <ThatGraemeGuy> i.e. layer 2 network
[07:44] <Kilos> on of the first things i install but havent needed it here
[07:45] <ThatGraemeGuy> Squirm: http://compnetworking.about.com/od/tcpip/f/convertmacipadd.htm
[07:46] <ThatGraemeGuy> yeah, there is definitely no way to determine the MAC address that isn't on the same local network as you
[07:48] <Kilos> hmm... so its one of his kids there
[07:48] <Kilos> hi SubOracle
[07:55] <theblazehen> what's the problem with seeing mac address?
[08:03] <Squirm> I think I stopped them
[08:03] <Squirm> dropped all incoming traffic on our public NIC to the port
[08:03] <Squirm> seems to have worked
[08:04] <Kilos> Squirm, do you do that with a firewall?
[08:04] <Squirm> yes
[08:05] <Kilos> i see gufw gives option to allow only chosen incomings
[08:05] <Kilos> cool ty
[08:21] <Squirm> I just added an iptables rule
[08:22] <Kilos> ok
[08:22] <Kilos> the dd command to usb should be bootable hey?
[08:23] <Kilos> i did dd if=/tmp/cdimg1.iso of=/dev/sdd  but it dont boot
[08:25] <Kilos> and using unetbootin boots to unetbootin default and keeps trying every 10 secs but i dont think it sees the setup.exe file or something
[08:25] <Kilos> dont boot to winme
[08:25] <Kilos> grrr
[08:39] <Kilos> sjoe Squirm sitick has nothing on it after that dd command
[08:39] <Kilos> hi Wraz
[08:41] <Squirm> did you make sure your paths are correct?
[08:41] <Squirm> and is /dev/sdd definitely your flash drive?
[08:41] <Kilos> normally if you got wrong path you get a cant find
[08:42] <Kilos> yip gparted and disk utility show it as /dev/sdd
[08:48] <Squirm> then it should all work
[08:48] <Kilos> weird
[08:48] <charl_> hi Squirm, Kilos
[08:48] <Kilos> stick shows nothing on it
[08:48] <charl_> Maaz: coffee on
[08:48]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[08:49] <Kilos> hi charl_
[08:49] <charl_> how's it going
[08:49] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee please
[08:49] <Maaz> Kilos: Done
[08:49] <Squirm> Kilos: then you're stuck with unetbootin
[08:50] <Kilos> lol
[08:50] <Kilos> maybe they both dont work with win stuff
[08:50] <Kilos> ill try take the iso to win7 and use
[08:50] <Kilos> um
[08:51] <Kilos> burnaware
[08:52] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charl_ and Kilos!
[08:53] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[08:53] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[08:57] <charl_> Maaz: thanks
[08:57] <Maaz> charl_: No problem
[08:57] <theblazehen> TIL bogosort is really slow..
[08:58] <charl_> hi theblazehen
[08:58] <theblazehen> hey charl_
[08:58] <theblazehen> lol, bogosort still running after 4 min on 5 element array..
[08:58] <theblazehen> 5 seconds on a 4 element array
[08:59] <charl_> hahahaha
[09:00] <charl_> you have too much time on your hands :P
[09:00] <theblazehen> Lol yeah.. Was only like 15 lines of python though..
[09:02] <theblazehen> STILL RUNNING!!1!
[09:04] <theblazehen> I'd assume it'd be a lot faster in C or something? Because then the whole array would fit in the L2 cache.. Hell maybe even L1
[09:04] <theblazehen> OOh! got luck, 4 element array sorted in 9 seconds this time!
[09:05] <charl_> maybe you were using a bad randomisation algorithm
[09:05] <theblazehen> Using python's shuffle()
[09:05] <theblazehen> should be adequate
[09:06] <charl_> sounds like it got stuck in a bad state somewhere
[09:06] <theblazehen> But now I feel the need to do it in assembly..
[09:06] <theblazehen> Yeah, but running on another machine now
[09:06] <theblazehen> lets see which gets there first :p
[09:06] <theblazehen> " The average swaps for Bogosort is (n - 1)n! "
[09:06] <theblazehen> So a shit ton..
[09:08] <theblazehen> Mind checking the code charl_ ?
[09:09] <theblazehen> http://pastebin.com/HG7bV7Wy
[09:13] <Squirm> I couldn't contain myself watching this video
[09:13] <Squirm> https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
[09:13] <Squirm> you guys talking about these issues
[09:13] <Squirm> watch that :P
[09:16] <theblazehen> Squirm, funny?
[09:16] <Squirm> very much so
[09:19] <theblazehen> Squirm, about to watch. You should watch this also then:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQ7ukwK56Q
[09:20] <Squirm> it is sfw
[09:21] <theblazehen> yeah
[09:33] <charl_> looking
[09:35] <theblazehen> charl_, ty. Please don't judge the code quality..
[09:35] <charl_> it's an experiment, you never nitpick the code of an experiment
[09:35] <theblazehen> yeah, ty :)
[09:36] <charl_> i don't see any real issues here
[09:36] <charl_> quickly scanning over it
[09:37] <theblazehen> ty.
[09:37] <charl_> what you could do just for interest is count how many times you execute shuffle
[09:38] <charl_> and display that as well
[09:38] <charl_> because that tells you more about (in)efficiency than the execution time
[09:38] <charl_> because execution time will vary depending on the system and current load from other applications
[09:39] <theblazehen> charl_, Ah, yeah ty :) Will do that after this sort is done
[09:39] <theblazehen> Getting 99.9% CPU load for python
[09:41] <theblazehen> Dual-core P4, 1MB L2 cache, 800MHz RAM
[09:42] <charl_> ok well that is also an ancient machine
[09:43] <theblazehen> hehe yeah :p Didn't get much better performance on an OpenVZ container on an i3 though
[09:43] <theblazehen> But think it's probably memory speed limited, right?
[09:46] <charl_> not sure, i'm not that familiar with openvz
[09:49] <theblazehen> yeah, but It'll be in general? Because it needs to fetch the elements of array out of RAM each time i'd assume, and that can take 10- 20 cycles IIRC
[09:58] <charl_> stuff could exist in cache too of course
[09:59] <charl_> but cache size is limited, so yeah
[09:59] <charl_> although, you are working with very small lists
[10:00] <theblazehen> yeah, but isn't python a bit inefficient with memory?
[10:27] <theblazehen> charl_, for some reason it was sorting a 9 element array ...
[10:31] <Kilos> hi tinuva wb
[10:31] <charl_> when it wasn't supposed to?
[10:32] <charl_> for i in range(10)
[10:32] <charl_> range(10) returns [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
[10:33] <charl_> so at the end it calls createx(9) which you then sort, so makes sense right?
[10:40] <theblazehen> charl_, I seem to be sorting an array of 9 when it should be 4
[10:40] <theblazehen> Lemme just make sure
[10:42] <theblazehen> lemme pastebin log with more debugging
[10:46] <Symmetri1> heh man the engineers here are about to discover that when Im the one training, you better be prepared to work
[10:46] <Symmetria> from monday onwards, Im on a mission to turn the companies IP people into the best goddamn network engineers you can find
[10:47] <theblazehen> Symmetria, good luck man!
[10:48] <theblazehen> charl_, http://pastebin.com/ETE5xAqt
[10:57] <Symmetria> heh I was trying to explain to a network guy why you always wanted to send data with the largest packet size you could
[10:57] <Symmetria> he was having a hard time grasping that if you transmit a 10meg file over ethernet using tcp, with 64 byte packets, you're sending about 37 meg more data than if you use 128 byte packets
[10:58] <Symmetria> (and about 44meg more data than if you use 1500 byte packets)
[10:58] <Trixar_za> To compensate for or to prevent packet loss?
[10:59] <Symmetria> its got to do with the header sizes actually
[10:59] <Symmetria> you have 52 bytes of header on a tcp packet
[10:59] <Symmetria> so 64 byte packets, you're only transferring 12 bytes of data per packet
[10:59] <Symmetria> or less than 20% of your throughput that is actual data
[10:59] <Symmetria> 128byte packets, you're up to 76 bytes of data which is well in excess of 50%
[11:00] <Trixar_za> I have always wondered why it used more data to upload and download
[11:01] <Symmetria> ethernet tcp packet is 12 bytes ethernet header, 20 bytes IP header (IF there are no options) and 20 bytes tcp header (again if there are no options)
[11:01] <Symmetria> heh also explaining to people that the source address of a packet is almost never used for routing purposes seems to confuse people
[11:02] <Symmetria> routers (unless very specifically configured), never even bother about the source address when they actually route something
[11:02] <Trixar_za> Makese sense. The destination is more important
[11:04] <Symmetria> heh, yes but it also opens some interesting security issues
[11:05] <Symmetria> which is why tcp does 3 way handshake and maintains state
[11:05] <Symmetria> with udp, which is uni-directional, because packets are transmitted and never have to be acknowledged
[11:05] <Symmetria> you can change the source address in the packet header, send the data out, the destination will get it, but the source it came from will NOT be where it thinks
[11:05]  * theblazehen facepalms
[11:05] <Trixar_za> lol
[11:06] <Symmetria> I can ping flood you from any address anywhere in about 30 lines of C code :p
[11:06] <Trixar_za> So... source spoofing?
[11:06] <Symmetria> yeah, just change the source address before you transmit
[11:06] <theblazehen> I can ping flood you from my IP in 1 line of bash...
[11:06] <theblazehen> Yeah, that ain't exactly impressive
[11:06] <Symmetria> theblazehen yes, but thats from your ip, its not from someoen elses :)
[11:06] <Symmetria> and the implications of that are more complicated
[11:07] <Symmetria> because if you have a network broadcast address thats open (ip directed broadcast)
[11:07] <Symmetria> I now spoof YOUR ip and start ping flooding the broadcast from you
[11:07] <Symmetria> the broadcast will take ping packets from you, and broadcast them out to a ton of pcs
[11:07] <Symmetria> those pcs will then reply... to YOU
[11:07] <Symmetria> so if Im sending 10k packets a second, to a broadcast with 100 pcs behind the broadcast
[11:08] <Symmetria> you're gonna be getting a million packets a second in fake ping replies aimed at you
[11:08] <Symmetria> and you're gonna die
[11:08] <theblazehen> Symmetria, yeah, t'was a joke
[11:08] <Symmetria> (the basis of a smurf attack)
[11:08] <Symmetria> :P gets even more interesting when you start spoofing mac addresses
[11:09] <Symmetria> hijacking peoples gateways is fun kthx
[11:09] <theblazehen> ooh?
[11:09] <Symmetria> theblazehen heh, if I send out packets which makes a router believe that your gateway is on MY mac address rather than its real mac address
[11:09] <Symmetria> then your packets are gonan gateway through me
[11:09] <Symmetria> some slightly complicated configurations later, and my pc can then route those packets
[11:10] <Symmetria> and I can man in the middle everything
[11:10] <Symmetria> ;p
[11:10] <theblazehen> So basically like ARP spoofing?
[11:10] <Symmetria> theblazehen basically
[11:10] <Symmetria> network hackery is fun ;p
[11:10] <theblazehen> yeah :)
[11:10] <Symmetria> lol I still wanna one day attempt to transmit packets with pre-loaded mpls labels
[11:10] <theblazehen> Hell, 2 years ago I had some fun with it at school :)
[11:11] <theblazehen> mpl labels?
[11:11] <Symmetria> and see what I can do to an mpls network thats badly configured
[11:11] <Symmetria> theblazehen heh, routing in an MPLS network isn't really done by source and destination ips through most of the network
[11:11] <Symmetria> what happens is basically this, you send a packet to destination X
[11:12] <Symmetria> the first router that gets the packet, looks up destination X and says, whats my remote point gateway for this and what label does that have
[11:12] <Symmetria> it then applies some labels and it switches it through the network using labels
[11:12] <Symmetria> and the routers inbetween that are doing the label switching are ignoring the source and destination of the packet entirely, it becomes entirely based on the label switching
[11:12] <theblazehen> read first paragraph on wiki, seems interesting
[11:12] <Symmetria> which is why you can run a core router in a network that only has your network egress points in its routing table
[11:13] <Symmetria> so that it can figure out the labels on them
[11:13] <Symmetria> it has no default route, it has no full routing table, but it knows how to switch
 I can ping flood you from any address anywhere in about 30 lines of C code :p
[11:13] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:13] <tinuva> you can do it in less lines btw
[11:14] <Symmetria> tinuva yeah you can :) but if you're doing it properly you need to do it with raw sockets
[11:14] <Symmetria> and raw sockets take a coupla lines of code to setup
[11:14] <tinuva> also why write your own C code, if there is utilities available in most linux distros already allowing you to do that :P
[11:15] <Symmetria> tinuva lol, when I was doing that type of shit, I was doing it before code readily existed
[11:15] <theblazehen> tinuva, you can spoof IP with linux ping?
[11:15] <tinuva> not normal linux ping
[11:15] <tinuva> hping you can
[11:15] <tinuva> most distros should have that
[11:16] <theblazehen> Awesome :) dl'ing
[11:16] <tinuva> but just so you know...most SA adsl lines aint good enough to really abuse it :P
[11:16] <theblazehen> I know..
[11:17] <theblazehen> I do have a vps with a gigabit line though..
[11:17] <tinuva> any vps provider allowing you to do gigabit is crazy
[11:17] <tinuva> even the UK ones I find they rate limit the lower end VPS nics
[11:17] <theblazehen> Yeah, I know
[11:17] <Symmetria> heh tinuva ever seen this:
[11:17] <Symmetria> http://pastebin.ca/2530604
[11:17] <theblazehen> pretty damned cheap as well
[11:17] <Symmetria> I wrote that back in 1999
[11:17] <tinuva> and most vps panels out there allow rate limiting on the nics out of the box
[11:17] <Symmetria> its horrible code but it works
[11:18] <Symmetria> and its truely evil
[11:18] <theblazehen> tinuva, believe me, the place that I got my vps wasn't the kind to look at the settings..
[11:18] <tinuva> Symmetria, yeah that will work :P
[11:19] <tinuva> interesting that you use files for the input
[11:20] <tinuva> i like piping more though
[11:20] <tinuva> makes life easier to chain commands
[11:20] <theblazehen> tinuva, agreed
[11:20] <theblazehen> hell I pipe cat to grep...   Thanks! :D
[11:51] <charl_> theblazehen: also, you can, but you don't have to return x from bogo
[11:52] <charl_> theblazehen: the object that x references (the list) is mutated by the shuffle calls
[11:52] <theblazehen> ty
[11:53] <charl_> references are always passed by value in python but the object that is being referenced can be mutated at will
[11:53] <charl_> same as with java
[11:53] <charl_> that's why you need immutable objects like strings
[11:53] <theblazehen> Thanks :)
[11:54] <charl_> np
[11:55] <theblazehen> Either way it sorts a 9 element array in 2 seconds now ?!
[11:55] <charl_> that sounds more realistic
[11:55] <theblazehen> yep :)
[11:56] <charl_> btw related to the discussion above
[11:56] <charl_> i host with hetzner which doesn't have a limit on the amount of traffic you can push over the line in a month
[11:56] <charl_> however, your speed is reduced down to 10mbps after the first terabyte
[11:56] <charl_> unless if you pay extra
[11:57] <charl_> conidering how minimalist of a vps it is and that you only have 20gb storage space, it's unlikely that that would be a problem
[11:57] <charl_> unless if you use it for grid computing or something with massive calculations and results that need to be sent around
[11:58] <theblazehen> Become a tor node ;)
[11:58] <charl_> *massive amounts of
[11:58] <theblazehen> or seed popular (FOSS) torrents
[11:58] <charl_> yeah and get your ip banned from pretty much every site in the world and probably get your server taken offline by the hosting company
[11:58] <charl_> no thank you i stay the heck away from tor
[11:59] <charl_> enough people are seeding the torrents, i was downloading linux mint the other day at half a gigabit per second
[11:59] <theblazehen> charl_, I did it, and didn't get shit. And I dunno about you but I don't browse from my VPS..
[12:00] <theblazehen> Although it sounds like a good idea, create socks proxy with SSH and use SSH compression
[12:00] <charl_> i have done it a lot when i sit on insecure wifi
[12:01] <theblazehen> charl_, I did it over port 53 when it was a paywall..
[12:01] <charl_> yeah indeed you can pull out nice tricks like that
[12:01] <charl_> if the paywall doesn't do deep packet inspection of course
[12:02] <charl_> i used to do that myself in fact
[12:02] <theblazehen> Signal shit, so I'm lucky to get 10000 baud though. But only on the one wofo hotspot
[12:02] <theblazehen> wifi*
[12:08] <charl_> bbl
[12:08] <theblazehen> cya charl_
[12:48] <mazal> Bye everyone , have a good evening
[14:34] <charl_> back
[14:35] <Kilos> wb
[15:15] <charl_> thanks Kilos
[15:16] <Kilos> hehe
[15:35] <charl_> have any of you people worked with this before? http://www.docker.io/
[15:39] <theblazehen> charl_, heard good things about it, never used
[15:41] <charl_> i'm looking at it now, it looks interesting
[15:42] <charl_> maybe i just don't completely "get it" but i'm not so incredibly excited by this
[15:43] <theblazehen> charl_, yeah. Wasn't too impressed either at first, untl i started using turnkey linux images for things
[15:44] <charl_> it seems like they are building yet another level on top of the host that's already running inside a hypervisor
[15:44] <charl_> so you have hardware -> host / hypervisor -> VM -> docker
[15:44] <charl_> and then various things running on top of docker
[15:44] <theblazehen> charl_, I thought it would just be containers ?
[15:45] <theblazehen> Eg. hardware -> container
[15:45] <charl_> yes so you have hardware -> host -> hypervisor -> guest -> docker -> container -> application
[15:45] <charl_> not by the way i understand it but maybe i don't understand it
[15:46] <theblazehen> With my experience with OpenVZ the container shares the kernel with the host, basically an enhanched chroot
[15:46] <theblazehen> or bad jail
[15:47] <theblazehen> bsd*
[15:47] <charl_> yes that is exactly what it looks like to me
[15:48] <charl_> so you don't have a full VM, it's a bit like python's virtualenv
[15:48] <theblazehen> yeah
[15:51] <charl_> i don't know about this, i can't help but think we are abstracting things too far now
[15:52] <charl_> maybe if you use it as a replacement for virtualisation
[15:52] <charl_> i guess to some extent it does have advantages
[15:54] <theblazehen> yeah
[16:11] <Kilos> w0000t
[16:11] <Kilos> my cdrw is fixed
[16:12] <Kilos> small piece of shiny stuff stuck on lazer
[16:12] <Kilos> maybe bit off an old cd
[16:13] <Kilos> charl_, look at dvdisaster. very lekker tool
[16:13] <Kilos> in repos
[16:14]  * Kilos loves ubuntuand linux
[16:18] <charl_> oh that does look very nice indeed
[16:19] <Kilos> saved a coupla cds already
[16:19] <Kilos> actually saved the data and reburned new ones
[16:19] <Kilos> now im sorry ive thrown so many away
[16:20] <Kilos> hehe
[17:24] <Kilos> hey whats news with schumi
[17:25] <charl_> ooh nice brand bokbier yum yum yum
[17:25] <charl_> "herfstbok" they call it here
[17:27] <Kilos> beer?
[17:27] <charl_> yes
[17:27] <Kilos> dunno how peeps can drink that without 90%lemonade in
[17:27] <charl_> this: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_Dubbelbock
[17:28] <Kilos> no man saving data
[17:28] <charl_> you can only buy it in the winter
[17:28] <charl_> oh just noticed there is no english translation in any case, never mind :P
[17:28] <Kilos> never ever aquired a taste for beer brandy or whisky
[17:28] <Kilos> but loved bacardi and coke
[17:29] <charl_> bacardi ... is that rum?
[17:30] <Kilos> white rum ya
[17:30] <Kilos> largest private brewery in the world i think
[17:30] <charl_> cuban? interesting
[17:31] <Kilos> like colddrink
[17:32] <Kilos> used to laugh. peeps drink and drink then fall off chair
[17:32] <Kilos> very potent but tastes too lekker
[17:33] <charl_> what
[17:33] <charl_> that sounds like oktoberfest
[17:34] <charl_> in the morning it's just awesome, when there is still calm, peace and order (or some of it, in any case)
[17:35] <charl_> but in the afternoon here after lunchtime, "jetzst gehts los"
[17:35] <charl_> *jetzt
[17:36] <Kilos> hehe
[17:53] <charl_> yesterday i went to liege in belgium, interesting city
[17:53] <charl_> took a bunch of fotos http://imgur.com/a/tF0Pz
[17:53] <charl_> some of them was on the way there and back though in NL
[17:53] <charl_> went through maastricht
[17:58] <Kilos> you like exploring hey
[18:00] <charl_> i want to go to ghent next
[18:01] <Kilos> what do you do at all these places? just look
[18:01] <charl_> take photos, look around, eat some food, explore shops, etc
[18:01] <Kilos> whew
[18:01] <charl_> most of it is walking around, looking at landmarks, architecture, etc
[18:27] <Kilos> inetpro, jy baie stil ne
[18:28] <charl_> in dutch we have a saying, when the cat is from the house, the mice dance on the table
[18:28] <charl_> http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/als_de_kat_van_huis_is,_dansen_de_muizen_op_tafel
[18:28] <Kilos> kat is weg muis is baas
[18:28] <charl_> yes exactly
[18:29] <Kilos> hehe
[18:29] <charl_> so when inetpro isn't looking let's do like at oktoberfest and dance on the table
[18:29] <Kilos> haha
[18:30] <Kilos> he active like he used to be, and says he is too busy but i think its old age catching up fast
[18:30] <Kilos> he isnt active
[18:31] <Kilos> unfit and getting fat too
[18:31]  * Kilos waits for ai!
[19:04] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[19:04] <Kilos> catch ya tomorrow
[19:06] <inetpro> hmm...
[19:09] <charl_> hahahaha


[18:25] <thangam_arun> dfarning, hii
[18:28] <thangam_arun> dfarning, did you add new user for me ???
[20:46] <grantbow> is dipankar on IRC?
[20:46] <grantbow> I don't see him here, but does he/she use IRC?
[20:48] <grantbow> oh wait, wrong email
[20:48] <grantbow> lfaraone: I tried sudo apt-get remove -f sugar-base
[20:49] <grantbow> unfortunately I still get the apt-get error in the pastebin
[20:54] <grantbow> maybe I'll just uninstall and try again
[22:46] <manusheel> grantbow: Hi Grant.
[22:47] <manusheel> grantbow: Dipankar does use the IRC. He is not here right now.
[23:20] <grantbow> manusheel: ok, thanks


[00:02] <cjwatson> asac: some people (myself included) find it much more convenient and less prone to human error
[00:03] <cjwatson> I don't use it for performance advantages so have no idea whether it provides those
[00:03] <cjwatson> I don't find that it has any performance disadvantages, and wouldn't expect anything either way really
[00:05] <asac> human error == forgetting to push?
[00:08] <cjwatson> yes
[00:08]  * cjwatson is rather fed up of the tedious conversations that go "hmm, where's your change?" "I committed it" "did you push?" "oh, no, whoops"
[00:08] <asac> hehe
[00:09] <cjwatson> also checkouts mean you never accidentally commit to non-head and have to merge, so if what you want is a single mainline most of the time, then it's neater
[00:10] <asac> cjwatson, hmm. good point. what happens if you commit and you have non-head on your disk?
[00:10] <cjwatson> in a checkout, it refuses and tells you to update
[00:10] <asac> right. does it smart merging then?
[00:11] <cjwatson> normally neatness isn't a big concern of course, but when the branch is "current thing that's packaged in Ubuntu or next thing to be uploaded" then it's a bit more important
[00:11] <cjwatson> it's just the same as pulling into a modified working tree
[00:11] <cjwatson> it'll do a three-way merge if possible and leave you conflicts if it fails
[00:13] <asac> for a moment i really forgot that you cant have more than one uncommitted change ;)
[00:18] <slangasek> mathiaz: ah, I see you've been tracking the changes in the openldap package svn, since you patch applies cleanly... thank you :)
[00:22] <mathiaz> slangasek: bzr merge FTW
[00:22] <slangasek> indeed :)
[00:23] <slangasek> in fact, did you have a bzr branch published, so that when the time comes I can merge it into the official repo?
[00:24] <mathiaz> slangasek: I don't have a public branch
[00:24] <mathiaz> slangasek: but I could push one to LP
[00:28] <slangasek> that would be nice, then the bzr-heads can get the whole revision history in the tree :)
[00:29] <mathiaz> slangasek: lp:~mathiaz/openldap/debian-cnconfig
[00:29] <slangasek> wooho
[00:29] <slangasek> o
[00:43] <slangasek> mathiaz: is this a missing merge?:
[00:43] <slangasek> -       if dpkg --compare-versions "$OLD_VERSION" lt-nl 2.4.7; then
[00:43] <slangasek> +       if dpkg --compare-versions "$OLD_VERSION" le-nl 2.3.30-6; then
[00:44] <slangasek> vorian: hrm, the lemonpos package in NEW appears to be empty.
[00:48] <kees> Can I add a standing "remove from ubuntu archive" request for "joomla"?  it's itp in debian and really really don't want it in ubuntu given it's terrible security record.
[00:49] <vorian> slangasek: let me take another look at it
[00:50] <slangasek> kees: you can ask for it to be blacklisted preemptively, sure
[00:50] <slangasek> kees: you can also comment on the ITP :)
[00:50] <kees> slangasek: I would like that, yes.  standard ubuntu-archive bug?
[00:50] <slangasek> kees: yes
[00:50] <mathiaz> slangasek: not that I know of - It was just to keep the functions to handle a db upgrade around
[00:51] <mathiaz> slangasek: upgrading from etch and hardy doesn't involve a db transition
[00:51] <slangasek> mathiaz: hrm, then where did that line come from in the first place :)
[00:52] <mathiaz> slangasek: IIRC it comes from dapper -> hardy support
[00:52] <slangasek> ah
[00:52] <kees> slangasek: jmm is all over the ITP already, I just wanted to block it Ubuntu too.  :)
[00:52] <slangasek> mathiaz: er, that doesn't make sense to me either
[00:52] <slangasek> mathiaz: hang on, will investigate
[00:52] <slangasek> kees: \o/
[00:52] <mathiaz> slangasek: upgrading from dapper (and sarge) required ldbm conversion
[00:53] <slangasek> mathiaz: oh, I see; so the transition is already done on both sides, and this change will let us avoid unnecessary redumps on sarge->etch?
[00:53] <mathiaz> slangasek: that function was used to handle the ldbm -> db transition
[00:54] <slangasek> ... er, unnecessary redumps on etch->lenny
[00:54] <mathiaz> slangasek: yes
[00:56] <mathiaz> slangasek: as of now, this code won't be called in ubuntu (hardy -> ..) and debian ( etch -> lenny)
[00:56]  * slangasek nods
[00:57] <mathiaz> slangasek: however the package can be configured to dump the ldap tree to ldif on every upgrade
[00:57] <mathiaz> slangasek: so some of the functions need to be kept around
[00:57] <slangasek> yes, I'm not disputing that
[00:57] <slangasek> I was just trying to figure out why the version number used in the check is different in your tree
[00:59] <slangasek> mathiaz: we have a changelog entry here of "- need to dump and reload databases again for the upgrade from 2.3.39."
[01:00] <slangasek> no other documentation, but apparently I was convinced of that in December
[01:02] <slangasek> mathiaz: indexing issue; http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-openldap-devel/2007-December/001819.html
[01:02] <slangasek> (at a minimum)
[01:03] <mathiaz> slangasek: right - so it seems that 2.4.7 should be kept
[01:04]  * slangasek nods
[01:09] <bryce> ogasawara: can you look at 204423?  Since it results in a system reboot it sounds like probably a kernel issue
[01:16] <emgent> pitti: https://launchpad.net/~we-love-pitti big lol!
[01:16] <ion_> :-D
[01:16]  * slangasek squints at jbossas4.  How does a jar have a circular build-dependency?
[01:52] <calc> ugh several packages need updating for the new libtool still
[01:53] <calc> apt-cache showpkg libltdl3-dev
[01:54]  * calc notes this is blocking OOo for the moment
[01:54]  * calc is investigating to see what needs to be done now
[01:58] <TheMuso> calc: I am having to relibtoolize pulseaudio as well, and its getting slightly annoying.
[01:59] <slangasek> calc: ITYM "libtool needs fixing to provide libltdl3-dev"
[01:59] <TheMuso> slangasek: there lis libltdl7
[01:59] <slangasek> yes, I'm aware
[01:59] <TheMuso> I'm trying to make use of that instead.
[01:59] <slangasek> by provide I mean a literal Provides:
[01:59] <TheMuso> ah ok.
[02:00] <calc> slangasek: oh is that what needs to be done? then yea someone needs to fix that asap
[02:00] <calc> slangasek: should i just upload a new version with just that one change?
[02:01] <slangasek> calc: well, Keybuk didn't raise any substantive objections, so yes, that's the better way about it
[02:01] <slangasek> calc: that would be fine, I think
[02:01] <calc> ok
[02:01] <calc> Keybuk: ping (sure you are awake at 4am right?) ;-)
[02:01] <calc> er 2am
[02:01] <calc> slangasek: oh was this already discussed elsewhere?
[02:01] <slangasek> calc: only here, and not at any great length :)
[02:02] <calc> slangasek: but scott is aware of the need to have the provides?
[02:02]  * calc doesn't want to annoy anyone or potentially cause issues
[02:02] <slangasek> calc: he punted on the question
[02:02] <calc> ok
[02:02] <calc> well it can be backed out later if needed i'll upload it here in a few min
[02:02] <TheMuso> I wonder whether packages will still need relibtoolizing then...
[02:03] <TheMuso> Because if not, I am willing to wait for that change.
[02:03] <calc> maybe i should fix it up locally see if it helps ooo to build and then decide whether to upload it, heh
[02:05] <slangasek> calc: it should be done anyway; if you prefer, I can do the libtool upload here
[02:05] <slangasek> TheMuso: libltdl has very little to do with libtoolizing
[02:05] <calc> slangasek: ok go ahead :)
[02:05] <TheMuso> slangasek: Hrm ok.
[02:06] <calc> i'll make the change locally and verify it works ok for OOo
[02:06] <calc> but it will take several hours to build OOo
[02:08] <slangasek> 0 upgraded, 122 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
[02:08] <slangasek> build-deps ftw
[02:08] <slangasek> does apt-get build-dep follow recommends by default now?
[02:08] <calc> that would be bad
[02:09] <calc> why does libtool depend on openjdk
[02:10] <calc> "texi2html texinfo gfortran gcj automake autoconf quilt" - explodes into the world
[02:10]  * slangasek lets pam and libtool battle for bandwidth
[02:11] <calc> approx is great at least for repeated use
[02:11] <calc> of course you still have to wait the first time you have to pull the debs
[02:15] <ion_> I’m using a generic HTTP proxy, polipo to be accurate. Haven’t bothered to use a separate apt cacher.
[02:16] <calc> 136MB build-depends for libtool (ouch)
[02:16] <calc> i need better broadband
[02:18] <TheMuso> Well the change to libltdl7 for pulse means that symbols cannot e found when building, so I'm digging into that.
[02:18] <TheMuso> So even if libltdl3 was a provides, it may still break things.
[02:20] <slangasek> what are the names of the missing symbols?
[02:22] <TheMuso> slangasek: There is only one that I can see so far, lt_preloaded_symbols
[02:22] <slangasek> hmm
[02:22] <slangasek> well, that's not a symbol name present in libltdl3 either
[02:22] <slangasek> so it's possible that this was a macro in the old version, but is now deprecated
[02:22] <TheMuso> No I think it actually gets generated by the libtool bits for the package.
[02:23] <TheMuso> the scripts rather.
[02:24] <calc> wow libtool actually has a test suite it runs during build
[02:27]  * calc thinks libtool might take as long to build as OOo
[02:28] <slangasek> heh
[02:29] <calc> hmm only 11m6s but it seemed longer than that
[02:32] <calc> is this right: Provides: libltdl3-dev
[02:33] <calc> even with that its claiming it needs to install the package
[02:33]  * calc is either too tired to see the issue or is doing something wrong
[02:33] <calc>   libgphoto2-2-dev: Depends: libltdl3-dev but it is not installable
[02:33] <slangasek> that's right; I don't know what issue you're running into
[02:34] <StevenK> Does libgphoto2-2-dev have a versioned dep on libltdl3-dev?
[02:34] <calc> no
[02:34] <slangasek> no
[02:35] <calc> is there some sort of don't allow a provides satisfy a depends thing?
[02:36]  * calc has no idea why this isn't working
[02:36] <StevenK> The version of libltdl7-dev I have here doesn't have Provides
[02:37] <calc> StevenK: i hacked a local copy
[02:37] <StevenK> Why does the soname need to be in the -dev package name? :-/
[02:37] <calc> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/31539/
[02:41] <slangasek> StevenK: doesn't
[02:41] <slangasek> shouldn't be
[02:41]  * StevenK gets tempted to fix it.
[02:42] <slangasek> to make things even more incompatible with the archive? :)
[02:42] <StevenK> slangasek: Well, if the new libltdl-dev Provides: both libltdl7-dev and libltdl3-dev?
[02:43] <slangasek> sure; except Debian hasn't done that, so if packages come along with versioned deps on libltdl7-dev, hilarity ensues
[02:45] <StevenK> calc: Did you just install that package directly? apt is trying to resolve it, and it doesn't tend to check installed packages
[02:45] <calc> StevenK: yea i installed it directly
[02:45] <StevenK> calc: Don't do that. :-)
[02:46] <slangasek> huh?
[02:46] <slangasek> apt doesn't try to install packages that are already installed
[02:46] <calc> apt doesn't look at what is installed on your system?
[02:46] <slangasek> (or complain about being unable to do so)
[02:46] <crimsun> asac: no, that's currently not possible
[02:47] <crimsun> asac: (meaning it's not possible to have a graceful fallback if you redefine pcm.default to have a different type)
[02:48] <calc> StevenK: why isn't that a bug in apt?
[02:48] <calc> StevenK: shouldn't it be looking at what is on the system to know if it needs to download something?
[02:49] <crimsun> asac: for an example of a graceful fallback, you'd have to have something along the lines of what `asoundconf set-default-card foo' does, which means defaults.pcm.card gets redefined but defaults.pcm.device 0 is the fallback [for card 0]
[02:50] <slangasek> calc: it's not a bug in apt because StevenK's comment has no correspondence to reality ;)
[02:50] <calc> ok
[02:50] <slangasek> unless what you did was install libltdl7-dev without *also* installing libltdl7, in which case apt might choose removal first
[02:50] <StevenK> Try it? It will either prove me right or wrong
[02:51] <calc> slangasek: well i rebuilt it without bothering to change the version number
[02:51] <calc> then just installed the -dev package (the non dev was already installed)
[02:52] <TheMuso> crimsun: So what is the use of your changes then?
[02:52] <TheMuso> crimsun: As XFCE/KDE don't use pulse.
[02:53] <crimsun> TheMuso: I was asked to draft a solution that doesn't involve a system-wide asoundrc
[02:53] <StevenK> calc: I think that might be causing the problem. The version isn't different so apt is using what's in Packages file?
[02:53] <calc> maybe so
[02:53] <crimsun> TheMuso: I haven't finished hacking alsa-lib to fallback sanely if another type is used
[02:53] <StevenK> And therefore doesn't "see" the Provides
[02:53] <TheMuso> crimsun: Fair enough, but your changes are merged anyway.
[02:54] <calc> that probably should be considered a bug that it isn't using the dpkg available file first (i guess that is where it should be getting the data?)
[02:54]  * StevenK waits for slangasek to say otherwise again. :-)
[02:54] <calc> i'll rebuild it with a bumped version number and see if it helps
[02:54] <slangasek> StevenK: nah, now you're talking about a corner case I've never tested, then. :)
[02:55]  * calc guesses he should file a bug if this works
[02:55] <calc> its not ideal way to rebuild packages but it should still use what is actually on your system over what is in the archive
[02:55]  * StevenK watches libtool build
[02:59] <calc> StevenK: just get Keybuk to apply your change to Debian ;-)
[02:59] <StevenK> 2.2.2-1 is in experimental, and 2.2.4-0ubuntu1 is in Intrepid
[03:00] <slangasek> calc: Keybuk seems an unlikely person to do that, since he's not a DD?
[03:00] <slangasek> (nor the libtool package maintainer in Debian)
[03:01] <StevenK> It's Kurt now
[03:04] <calc> slangasek: oh he's no longer a DD?
[03:04]  * calc didn't realize he retired, heh
[03:06] <slangasek> years ago
[03:06] <calc> yea that was the problem apt doesn't look at the dpkg info unless it is newer than what is in its own Packages file
[03:07] <slangasek> heh, ok
[03:07]  * StevenK wins
[03:09] <calc> so apt is stupid (my opinion of course) ;-)
[03:56] <calc> is there a tool that can fixup the numbers in a diff?
[03:56] <ion_> The numbers?
[03:57] <calc> eg @@ -3,107 +3,114 @@
[03:57] <ion_> rediff (1)           - fix offsets and counts of a hand-edited diff
[03:57] <calc> ok
[06:45] <pitti> Good morning
[06:45] <Hobbsee> pitti!
[06:47] <pitti> emgent: *cough* how embarassing...
[06:47] <pitti> it's a Hobbbbbbbsee!
[06:48]  * StevenK waves to pitti
[06:48]  * pitti sends a bunch of cookies to StevenK
[06:49] <StevenK> :-)
[06:50]  * Mithrandir grumbles.
[06:52]  * pitti gives some to Mithrandir, too
[06:52] <pitti> hey Tollef, how are you?
[06:56] <Mithrandir> feeling grumbly today.   A bit too early and moving is an interesting exercise.
[06:57] <pitti> Mithrandir: oh, different city, or just within?
[06:57] <Hobbsee> pitti: it is!
[06:57]  * Hobbsee freezes
[06:58]  * pitti started early to still have some hours with moderate temperature
[06:58] <Mithrandir> same city, but a semidetached house (I think that's the term) rather than a flat.
[06:58] <pitti> ah, nice; sounds like an upgrade :)
[06:58] <Mithrandir> absolutely.  It's just that moving is a bit of work with loads of planning and packing.
[06:58] <StevenK> pitti: Send the "hot" weather here, I'd prefer it to 13 degrees
[06:59] <Mithrandir> 13°C sounds lovely.
[06:59] <Mithrandir> but then, aircondition is also lovely.
[07:04]  * pitti doesn't like AC
[07:58] <RAOF>  Who's syncing Conduit?
[07:59] <RAOF> And why aren't they testing that it's installable first?
[08:04] <TheMuso> RAOF: Changed-By: James Westby<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:05] <pwnguin> plus addressing in a changed by?
[08:05] <TheMuso> pwnguin: Thats how it appears in mutt/gnome-terminal.
[08:06] <RAOF> In particular, conduit depends on python-gtkmozembed, which is built by debian's gnome-python-extras package, but not ours.
[08:16] <RAOF> So, I'm not sure if the correct fix is to merge in gnome-python-extras from Debian or to change conduit.
[08:19] <RAOF> Or, alternatively, split out python-gtkmozembed packages from our gnome-python-extras without merging from Debian, I suppose.
[08:30] <Sikon> Could a main sponsor please look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/f-spot/+bug/250047 ? Or is main frozen?
[08:34] <TheMuso> Sikon: Main is not currently frozen no. See topic.
[08:35] <wgrant> Why is it Wishlist?
[08:37] <RAOF> Sikon: That's a really odd patch description, too.  In what way are you adding missing headers?
[08:38] <Sikon> ah, indeed, I should fix the patch description
[08:40] <Sikon> reuploaded
[09:20] <RAOF> Does anyone here know of any reason why gnome-python-extras hasn't been merged from Debian since Gutsy?
[09:20] <RAOF> The debian package now builds a couple of extra binary packages; in the intrests minimal divergence I'd like to merge the Debian package.  This should make Conduit installable again.
[09:22] <RAOF> seb128: Aha!  There you are.  You seem to have touched gnome-python-extras the most: ^^^
[09:24] <seb128> RAOF: you are welcome to do the merge if you want, no reason we didn't do it out of the fact that it's not going to be trivial and that I was not convinced by their recent split
[09:25] <RAOF> seb128: Thanks.  Given the 'not trivial', I might file that one away for the weekend.
[09:25] <RAOF> You don't think python-gtkmozembed is a good idea?
[09:25] <RAOF> Or python-eggtraywhatever it is?
[09:26] <seb128> I'm just not sure there is a real need to split those
[09:26] <seb128> but since debian did it now, we can as well reduce the delta
[09:27] <RAOF> Right.
[09:27] <seb128> the fun part will be to do -dbg variants for all of those
[09:27] <RAOF> Oh, right.  Python.  I don't just get dbgsym for free.
[09:28] <seb128> well, ideally those python-dbg should would have been sent to debian some cycles ago and we could just sync now
[09:28] <seb128> but looks like doko have been too busy to send his changes and nobody else picked up on the job either
[09:29] <RAOF> Oh, well.  A weekend of fun, I bet :).
[09:29] <seb128> btw there is no need to do this merge to have conduit installable
[09:29] <RAOF> True.
[09:29] <mvo> Riddell: hi, thanks for your kde4 stuff, what is the package name for the qt4 designer? qt4-designer seems to be gone?
[09:30] <seb128> so why did you said it'll make conduit installable again?
[09:30] <RAOF> But other packages will start to move to the new package split,.
[09:30] <seb128> the issue is just a typo which is fixed in -3 that we should sync when it's available
[09:30] <RAOF> Because it will?  conduit currently depends on python-gtkmozembed
[09:30] <RAOF> And that typo, yeah :)
[09:30] <seb128> well, we can easily change the conduit depends too
[09:31] <RAOF> Yes.
[09:31] <seb128> or make python-gnome-extra provides the other debian binaries
[09:31] <RAOF> But I presume that other packages will start growing dependencies on the split packages.  I think miro may have already.
[09:31]  * mvo grumbles and just edits the .ui xml with emacs
[09:32] <seb128> hey mvo ;-)
[09:32] <RAOF> seb128: Tempting.  Are there any downsides to that?
[09:32] <mvo> hey seb128
[09:32] <Riddell> mvo: it is qt4-designer
[09:32] <seb128> the provides are not versionned
[09:32] <seb128> so if any package uses a versionned depends that will not work, otherwise that should not be an issue no
[09:32] <Riddell> mvo: the package is qt4-designer, the binary is designer-qt4
[09:33] <mvo> Riddell: aha, outdated sources.list, thanks!
[09:34] <mvo> Riddell: should i merge your changes if they look good or do you have other things in the queue?
[09:34] <Riddell> mvo: go ahead
[09:34] <Riddell> mvo: oh well
[09:35] <Riddell> mvo: DistUpgradeViewKDE4.py could be renamed back to DistUpgradeViewKDE.py
[09:35] <mvo> Riddell: right
[09:35] <mvo> Riddell: I can take care of the integration, thanks a lot for doing the port!
[09:37] <mvo> Riddell: the new designer looks very nice, much better than the qt3 one
[09:47] <tseliot> pitti: where do you keep the extra_conf_options that you pass as an argument to xorg_driver.XorgDriverHandler in Jockey?
[10:04] <Mirv> mvo: do the new package description translations have (theoritically) everything merged from Debian's ddtp?
[10:04] <mvo> Mirv: yes
[10:05] <mvo> Mirv: they should, unless there is a bug in the script. the debian import is ~2-3 days old
[10:05] <Mirv> mvo: ok, that's great
[10:05] <Mirv> I have to try to check it. Some descriptions are different in Ubuntu but a good sample of some that have been recently translated in Debian would answer the question well enough.
[10:06] <mvo> Mirv: please do and let me know your findings
[10:18] <geser> soren: Hi, do you know why libipq_pic.a got dropped from iptables-dev in the last merge?
[10:26] <jc-denton> how does the network manager talk to the wlan driver
[10:26] <tkamppeter> Are there any plans to have Samba 3.2 in Intrepid?
[10:27] <geser> !info samba intrepid
[10:28] <geser> tkamppeter: samba 2:3.2.0-4ubuntu1 is in intrepid but depwaits on libtalloc-dev
[10:28] <jc-denton> does it use iwconfig?
[10:28] <jc-denton> wpa_supplicant
[10:28] <jc-denton>  /dev/somethign?
[10:28] <geser> tkamppeter: and talloc is in universe
[10:31] <tkamppeter> geser, thanks, so it is waiting for the approval of a MIR?
[10:33] <geser> tkamppeter: it might be also waiting for a MIR to get written
[10:36] <pitti> tseliot: in the concrete subclasses, such as NvidiaHandler
[10:37] <pitti> tseliot: data/handlers/nvidia.py or fglrx.py
[10:37] <pitti> tseliot: (in the ubuntu branch)
[10:39] <tseliot> pitti: ah, ok I was looking in the wrong directory. Thanks
[10:40] <tseliot> pitti: expect something new for xorg_driver.py soon ;)
[10:40] <pitti> tseliot: what are you working on?
[10:40] <pitti> tseliot: oooh, xkit?
[10:40] <pitti> yay
[10:40] <tseliot> pitti: xkit and some deeper logic
[10:40] <pitti> tseliot: could you work on that relative to the trunk branch, not ubuntu?
[10:41] <pitti> tseliot: a lot of xorg.conf scenarios have test cases already, and thus can be conveniently tested just with tests/run
[10:41] <pitti> tseliot: that should provide a good first conformance test for the x-kit switch
[10:41] <tseliot> pitti: ok
[10:42] <pitti> tseliot: (well, xorg_handler.py are identical in trunk and ubuntu, so it doesn't matter so much)
[10:42] <pitti> tseliot: many thanks!
[10:42]  * pitti goes offline again for yet more gdm debugging, bbl
[10:42] <tseliot> pitti: ok, my branch will be based on trunk then.
[10:43] <pitti> where's seb128?
[10:43]  * tseliot goes back to hack on Jockey
[10:48] <pitti> seb128: wb
[10:49] <seb128> pitti: good morning!
[11:59] <mpt> If an update is a "no change rebuild", why is Ubuntu offering it to me in the first place?
[12:00] <mpt> (e.g. today's Firefox updates)
[12:00] <Mithrandir> mpt: "no source change rebuild" is what is meant.
[12:00] <StevenK> mpt: Because it was to pick up a library soname change or similar.
[12:00] <StevenK> mpt: The binary packages will be different, the only source change was adding a changelog entry.
[12:00] <mpt> That would be more useful information
[12:01] <persia> mpt: More specicially, you need to have the update in order to use the new xul, which was a security fix.
[12:01] <mpt> "This update uses the latest version of <library name> which does <faster/better/stronger>"
[12:01] <persia> Well, we don't always know <faster/better/stronger> ...
[12:01] <StevenK> mpt: Usually, I will have changelog entries like, "No change rebuild for libgpmg1 -> libgpm2 transistion."
[12:01] <mpt> Otherwise, the only effect of showing the Changes in Update Manager will be to *discourage* people from installing it.
[12:02] <mpt> (Which I assume is not what we want.)
[12:02] <cody-somerville> \o\ Heya Everyone /o/
[12:10] <_Angelus_> guys
[12:10] <_Angelus_> will someday exist an ubuntu i686?
[12:10] <_Angelus_> :p
[12:12] <persia> _Angelus_: No.  There are support libraries for i686 in Ubuntu i386.  Alternately, lpia is close to i686.
[12:12] <_Angelus_> so there is no plan of creathing a whole i686 ubuntu for download?
[12:13] <pitti> _Angelus_: define what you understand as "i686 Ubuntu"?
[12:13] <pitti> _Angelus_: if you mean a variant that won't run on real Pentiums or VIAs, or whatever, then "most unlikely"
[12:13] <_Angelus_> every package compiled as i686 instead of i386
[12:14] <Mithrandir> _Angelus_: what is the problem you are trying to solve?
[12:14] <_Angelus_> like gentoo
[12:14] <pitti> why should we? our current compiler already optimizes instruction order for i686, and uses i486 command set (AFAIR; doko, please correct me)
[12:14] <_Angelus_> im not trying to solve problem, im asking because im curious and i wish  for a whole ubuntu compiled as i686 like arch and gentoo
[12:15] <Mithrandir> pitti: correct.
[12:15] <pitti> _Angelus_: we have kernel and libc6 optimized for 686, where it matters (well, a bit anyway)
[12:15] <_Angelus_> yeah i know
[12:15] <pitti> the rest hardly matters...
[12:15] <cjwatson> _Angelus_: the significant extra disk space requirement is not worth the miniscule performance difference (given that, as pitti says, we already tune for i686)
[12:15] <_Angelus_> but every program compiled as i686 would make a speed burst :p
[12:15] <laga> _Angelus_: can you prove that?
[12:15] <cjwatson> _Angelus_: no, actually, we strongly believe it wouldn't. Please feel free to produce benchmark figures if you disagree.
[12:15] <pitti> maybe some ultra-optimized math libraries, but those can still have special cases
[12:16] <cjwatson> and libraries can have variants built for particular processors quite easily
[12:16] <_Angelus_> well i can't really prove it , its a matter  ifyou belive it or not
[12:16] <jcristau> no it isn't
[12:16] <cjwatson> this is a matter of scientific fact
[12:16] <_Angelus_> i just felt my computer going alot faster when i changed grfrom kubuuntu to gentoo
[12:16] <cjwatson> changing distribution involves so many other variables, and you've picked just one? :)
[12:17] <cjwatson> also, there is a psychological effect there
[12:17] <_Angelus_> bot arch and gentoo where faster then kubuntu
[12:17] <_Angelus_> and both are i686
[12:17] <cjwatson> "I've spent all this time compiling software - it must be worthwhile"
[12:17] <cjwatson> anyway, the simple answer is no, we aren't going to produce an i686-optimised variant. Sorry.
[12:17] <_Angelus_> cjwatson: on arch you dont compile, its precompiled i686, and its still alot faster then 1386 at least on my pc
[12:18] <_Angelus_> ok
[12:18] <_Angelus_> ;p
[12:18] <doko> _Angelus_: you have to back your claims. which improvement in which application?
[12:18] <_Angelus_> doko: application opening alot fast, and things like that
[12:19] <_Angelus_> im not a geek so i can't really prove it with geek words, al i can say is what my eyes see
[12:19] <_Angelus_> in normal words
[12:19] <_Angelus_> so sorry if im not being specific
[12:19] <cjwatson> timing isn't a matter of geekness
[12:19] <Mithrandir> _Angelus_: you need to come up with measurements where you've just changed one variable, not everything else.
[12:19] <_Angelus_> dont get me wrong guys im not talking bad about ubuntu or something
[12:20] <_Angelus_> kubuntu is my favorite distro and iv been using it for a year and a half now
[12:20] <cjwatson> we understand, but you're asking for a change that we believe there is no justification for, and we are explaining what justifications would be needed in order to make a change of this enormous magnitude
[12:20] <_Angelus_> but i saw a speed up in programs when i changed tto genoo
[12:20] <cjwatson> it is NOT sufficient to simply point at another distribution and say that it subjectively runs faster
[12:21] <_Angelus_> cjwatson: then dont make a change, leave i386 and make i686 available too, aint that posible to have both version available ?
[12:21] <cjwatson> that would be a vast, enormous change
[12:21] <cjwatson> and require a huge amount of additional resources
[12:21] <stgraber> _Angelus_: that'd take twice the space on the mirrors and twice the testing efforts. Not something we can afford
[12:21] <_Angelus_> hmm
[12:21] <cjwatson> you don't have to believe me or understand me, it is simply a fact
[12:21] <_Angelus_> i see
[12:21] <mpt> We could make "i686" symlinks to the i386 versions. Then it would still "feel faster", without the need for extra disk space. :-)
[12:21] <Mithrandir> we did roughly that for lpia, and it took what?  Four months and a team of three-four people full time for that period?
[12:22] <Mithrandir> (plus maintenance cost)
[12:22] <_Angelus_> i see
[12:22] <_Angelus_> i think its possible dough for example for some to compile the whole kubuntu froom surce and compile i386
[12:22] <_Angelus_> right?
[12:22] <cjwatson> therefore, it is in fact much cheaper to identify why particular applications are running faster, and incorporate particular optimisations
[12:22] <_Angelus_> i mean *i686 sorry
[12:22] <cjwatson> it very likely has nothing to do with CPU optimisationss
[12:23] <_Angelus_> nah
[12:23] <cjwatson> somebody could do that, and then be disappointed when it made little difference, sure :)
[12:23] <_Angelus_> i see
[12:23] <cjwatson> I believe that somebody did in fact try it in the past, and presented benchmarks with very small percentage-point differences
[12:24] <cjwatson> though I don't have a reference to hand
[12:24] <stgraber> it's of course possible to rebuild the whole archive using i686, people are doing that for arm and some other archs IIRC but that'll take you days/weeks to have everything rebuilt
[12:24] <_Angelus_> but i think in future when i386 will not  be need anymoree because all pc's will be compatable with i686, then  i think ubuntu will change right?
[12:25] <cjwatson> forget i386; we actually build for i486 anyway
[12:25] <persia> _Angelus_: There are many computers being made today that are i586.
[12:25] <cjwatson> and we investigated this just recently and found that there was still a substantial pre-i686 requirement (e.g. LTSP thin clients)
[12:25] <stgraber> _Angelus_: I think that the current moev is to go 64bit
[12:25] <stgraber> *move
[12:26] <Mithrandir> stgraber: yeah, I think i386 will just move into the embedded space and amd64 will take over desktops and servers completely.
[12:26] <_Angelus_> hmm
[12:26] <Mithrandir> who'd want a desktop with less than 8G RAM anyway?
[12:28] <jdstrand> mpt: the firefox-3.0/xulrunner-1.9 update for -security was because firefox-3.0 and xulrunner-1.9 had a security fix that went into -updates that had to be rebuilt for people who only have -security enabled. Hence 'no change rebuild for security'.
[12:29] <_Angelus_> so kubuntu will move to 64bit and not to i686
[12:29] <_Angelus_> ?
[12:30] <stgraber> What I meant is that we already have x86_amd64 that's optimized for newer CPUs (at least I'd expect it to be), I don't think spliting i386 or limitating it to >=586 is a good idea.
[12:30] <jdstrand> mpt: I could have used '-v...', but then that would have been confusing for people (a lot more than just -security) that have -updates enabled, as they would have seen the same changelog text twice
[12:30] <_Angelus_> i understand
[12:30] <cjwatson> _Angelus_: we already supply a 64-bit version of Kubuntu
[12:30] <mpt> jdstrand, are you saying that people with both -updates and -security turned on would have received two updates with the same summary?
[12:30] <cjwatson> oh, stgraber said that
[12:31] <_Angelus_> btw
[12:31] <stgraber> _Angelus_: as cjwatson we have some hardware like thin clients that can't run anything >486 and having both 486 and 686 is not an option for space reason, testing reason, ... and all that for (as far as we know) no real speed improvment
[12:31] <jdstrand> mpt: it is a standard text that we use in these situations, but it can certainly be improved if warranted
[12:31] <jdstrand> mpt: I'm saying that if I used '-v<earlier version>' (which I purposely didn't), then yes
[12:31] <_Angelus_> why deos kubuntu only offer 1 64bit version? should there be an amd64 one and an ia64 one ?
[12:32] <stgraber> _Angelus_: ia64 is not a supported arch
[12:32] <_Angelus_> ah
[12:32] <norsetto> with regard to bugs like bug 252037, can any motu upload a fix or is the solely prerogative of backporters?
[12:32] <mpt> jdstrand, why would they have received two updates instead of one in the first place?
[12:32] <persia> stgraber: ia64 works fine.  No reason to deprecate it.
[12:32] <_Angelus_> so 64bit intel cpu's are not supported?
[12:32] <cjwatson> yes, they are
[12:33] <cjwatson> "amd64" is just the codename (because AMD designed the architecture) but it also supports Intel Xeon-class systems
[12:33] <cjwatson> ia64 is Itanium, which is not the same as the 64-bit Intel systems that most people in fact have.
[12:33] <_Angelus_> aint ia64 for intel 64bit cpus?
[12:33] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: more than Xeon, really.  Most desktop and laptop CPUs from Intel those days are 64-bit capable.
[12:33] <jdstrand> mpt: it went into -propsed for more widespread testing, then was mistakenly pocket copied to updates rather than rebuilt in -security. it linked against (and depended on) a newer version of pango that made it uninstallable for people with just -security enabled
[12:33] <cjwatson> _Angelus_: Itanium only, not things like Core 2. Please listen to what I said.
[12:34] <jdstrand> mpt: so we had to send it through -security too
[12:34] <_Angelus_> hmm i see
[12:34] <cjwatson> _Angelus_: Wikipedia should have a good summary if you want the complicated history
[12:34] <Mithrandir> ia64 systems need lots of cooling and are generally not something an end user would ever buy or interface directly with.
[12:34] <_Angelus_> so Core 2 uses the amd64 arch
[12:34] <cjwatson> _Angelus_: furthermore, we document quite clearly that our 64-bit CD images (for example) support Intel systems
[12:34] <cjwatson> yes.
[12:34] <_Angelus_> i  understand.
[12:35] <TheMuso> I think EM64T is the official Intel 64-bit name.
[12:35] <jdstrand> mpt: I say 'mistakenly' here, but it is no one's fault, as there wasn't a clear policy at the time. that has since been adjusted in SecurityUpdateProcedures
[12:35] <StevenK> TheMuso: Not any more. Now they're calling it Intel 64
[12:35] <Mithrandir> TheMuso: it is.  And the gnu arch string is x86_64.  And MS and Sun's name for the architecture is x64.
[12:35] <TheMuso> StevenK: haha great.
[12:36] <cjwatson> names are hopelessly marketing-infected. The solution is not to actually expect users to understand "amd64", but to display a description alongside or instead of the name wherever necessary
[12:36] <mpt> jdstrand, ah, I see. Perhaps it would be more understandable in cases like that for Update Manager to have the same full update description as before, but followed by "This replaces a previous update that did not install on some systems" or something like that.
[12:38] <jdstrand> mpt: had to disagree with that. :) however, with our new procedures, and me talking with all the archive admins personally, hopefully we'll avoid it completely in the future
[12:38] <mpt> ok
[12:38] <jdstrand> s/had/hard/
[13:45] <warp10> pitti: I just subscribed you to bug #252262, since you modified the piece of code involved in that bug in a past revision. I am not sure that one is actually a bug, BTW
[13:50] <pitti> warp10: replied, thanks
[14:15] <skymuss> hi
[14:23] <pitti> seb128, Riddell: any chance one of you could wave gdm-guest-session through source NEW? it's tiny, ubuntu specific, packaged by me, so I hope it won't take more than two minutes
[14:23] <seb128> pitti: looking
[14:24] <pitti> seb128: (might actually still take 2 minutes until it hits the quue)
[14:24] <pitti> seb128: merci
[14:24] <seb128> ok, grabbing coffee and looking to that next then
[14:24] <seb128> de rien
[14:42] <tseliot> pitti: is the "XorgDriverHandler.enabled()" method called when Jockey installs or uninstalls the driver or only in one of these cases?
[14:44] <pitti> tseliot:in both; (if you really mean enabled(), and not enable() )
[14:45] <tseliot> pitti: I mean enabled()
[14:45] <tseliot> pitti: ok, thanks
[14:48] <tseliot> pitti: oh, and enabled is called before enable() or disable(), right?
[15:00] <pitti> tseliot: yes
[15:00]  * pitti -> bbl
[15:05] <pitti> tseliot: it is called to check whether to enable or disable the driver, or if you specify --enable, whether it already is, and so on
[15:06] <pitti> tseliot: however, API-wise you sholdn't bet on any particular order; why do you want to?
[15:07] <tseliot> pitti: I was trying not to call the same method twice. Currently enabled() calls it to check the xorg.conf and this other method sets self.devices_to_check
[15:08] <tseliot> pitti: self.devices_to_check is a list
[15:09] <tseliot> pitti: otherwise I would have to call the other method in both enable() and disable()
[15:09] <pitti> tseliot: you should still do that  then
[15:10] <pitti> tseliot: you shouldn't parse xorg.conf twice; just do it once and then just work with the internal XKit object and modify its state
[15:10] <pitti> and just write() in enable()/disable()
[15:11] <tseliot> pitti: I don't parse the xorg.conf more than once. I'm talking about calling a quite useful method i.e. check_serverlayouts() twice
[15:13] <tseliot> pitti: I'll explain you everything as soon as it's complete.
[15:13] <tseliot> pitti: why is there no nvidia.py in data/handlers/ in trunk?
[15:31] <tseliot> pitti: furthermore is it really necessary to override enabled() in nvidia.py? Shouldn't it use the inherited method?
[15:34] <pitti> re
[15:34] <pitti> tseliot: doesn't sounds as if it would be too expensive to do so; mind you, that isn't called 10.000 times a second or so
[15:35] <pitti> tseliot: nvidia.py isn't a supported handler upstream, since it is ubuntu specific
[15:35] <pitti> tseliot: in trunk it is in examples/handlers/
[15:35] <tseliot> pitti: aah, I see
[15:37] <tseliot> pitti: I'll work on examples/handlers/nvidia.py and fglrx.py then
[15:40] <pitti> tseliot: indeed, with the latest trunk fixes, nvidia shouldn't need to overide enabled() any more
[15:41] <tseliot> pitti: yes, that's why I commented it out
[15:42] <tseliot> pitti: also, it would be nice if (in the future) you could add a "disable_modules" argument to the superclass
[15:42] <tseliot> so as to disable modules which are enabled by default
[15:43] <tseliot> such as "dri2"
[15:43] <tseliot> and to set something like Disable "dri2" in the Module section of the xorg.conf
[15:44] <pitti> tseliot: right, so far I just have a parameter for modules which shuold be removed
[15:44] <pitti> I hadn't implicitly loaded modules in mind when I wrote that
[15:45] <tseliot> pitti: adding that argument wouldn't break anything, I guess
[15:45] <tseliot> if you want, I can deal with it
[15:45] <tseliot> when my changes are stable
[15:50] <pitti> tseliot: if you feel like it, sure
[15:50] <geser> mvo: is it a bug or a feature that "apt-cache unmet -i " also lists Breaks:?
[15:50] <pitti> tseliot: just remember, every new feature needs a corresponding test case :)
[15:50] <tseliot> pitti: yes, of course ;)
[15:53] <mvo> geser: sounds like a bug to me, let me check the bzr history
[15:56] <tseliot> pitti: would it be possible to add a dependency on pciutils to jockey?
[15:56]  * tseliot hides
[16:00] <tseliot> pitti: seriously, I would need it to do hardware detection. Or do you do hardware detection in a way which is different from using lspci?
[16:06] <NCommander> seb128, morning
[16:10] <seb128> hello NCommander
[16:10] <NCommander> seb128, someone already beat me to glibmm :-P
[16:10] <seb128> NCommander: oh?
[16:10] <NCommander> The latest upstream I could find was 2.16.4
[16:10] <NCommander> Which is what's in intrepid
[16:10] <seb128> NCommander: http://download.gnome.org/sources/glibmm/2.17/glibmm-2.17.1.tar.gz
[16:11] <NCommander> It says 2.16 is stable
[16:11] <NCommander> That's under unstable
[16:11] <seb128> yes, but we track glib 2.17
[16:11] <NCommander> Oh
[16:11] <seb128> and GNOME 2.23
[16:11]  * NCommander inserts hit foot in his mouth then ;-)
[16:11] <seb128> intrepid will have GNOME 2.24
[16:11] <seb128> so we package unstable versions along the way until the stable one
[16:12] <NCommander> That makes sense
[16:12]  * NCommander learns more about the desktop team ;-)
[16:12] <NCommander> ls
[16:12] <NCommander> whoops
[16:12] <StevenK> total 0
[16:18] <Keybuk> ?!
[16:19] <Keybuk> how do I have a version of python-2.5 installed that's not in the archive?
[16:20] <Keybuk> seems it came from hardy-proposed, but then vanished
[16:24] <NCommander> seb128, I'm now testing out glibmm2.17; I noted in the changelog the reason we were tracking an unstable release
[16:25] <seb128> NCommander: ok good
[16:29] <pitti> tseliot: pciutils? no, why? IMHO we should read everything from /sys
[16:32] <tseliot> pitti: I use "lspci" so as to look it up in /usr/share/xserver-xorg/pci/ if no driver is specified in the xorg.conf. In this way I can see what driver Xorg assigned.
[16:33] <tseliot> pitti: and by Xorg I mean Xorg's autodetection
[16:33] <jcristau> tseliot: what happens when /usr/share/xserver-xorg/pci goes away?
[16:34] <tseliot> jcristau: we replace it with whatever is available
[16:36] <tseliot> jcristau: but if these files are available we make use of them.
[16:36] <tseliot> a simple "if" block will be enough
[16:36] <jcristau> tseliot: as long as you don't break when they're not, that's good enough for me :)
[16:37] <jcristau> (because 'whatever is available' might well be 'nothing')
[16:38] <tseliot> jcristau: yes, I know
[16:42] <tseliot> pitti: never mind, I misread the custom handler. Ignore my request.
[17:04] <vadi2> Is there a channel for "application development on Ubuntu" if this isn't it?
[17:06] <ion_> It’s just application development, “on Ubuntu” is irrelevant.
[17:08] <vadi2> Is that a no or a yes?
[17:09] <vadi2> I'd like to find out the proper way of adding a program that requires root privileges to startup.
[17:09] <vadi2> (In ubuntu)
[17:09] <Mithrandir> vadi2: add an init script
[17:10] <ion_> mithrandir: Or an Upstart job.
[17:10] <Mithrandir> that's also an option.
[17:10] <vadi2> Great, thanks. I'll look into that.
[17:10] <rubikcube> hello, I need some help concerning building a working initrd (or so I think).  How can I tell it which modules to load when booting (specifically pata_via)?
[17:11] <cjwatson> rubikcube: add module names to /etc/initramfs-tools/modules; run update-initramfs
[17:11] <cjwatson> (update-initramfs -u, probably)
[17:12] <rubikcube> well, that's what dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-foo should do already, right?
[17:12] <cjwatson> sure, if you want the long way round
[17:13] <cjwatson> that's really only an incidental side-effect. dpkg-reconfigure means "ask me debconf questions again".
[17:14] <rubikcube> anyway, that didn't work :/ I'm trying to solve https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/+bug/32123 or something very similar
[17:16] <rubikcube> but if that's all it should take, I'll just retry it :-)
[17:19] <vadi2> Just to confirm... does upstart work for GUI applications?
[17:20] <cjwatson> vadi2: I think you need to be a bit more specific
[17:20] <vadi2> Can it launch a gtk application?
[17:21] <vadi2> The issue that I have is that I'd like to have an application auto-start, but it requries root privileges. If I copy the .desktop to .config/autostart, it'll start - but it asks the user for root password (right after he already put it in once for login)
[17:27] <bdmurray> pitti: I've found an apport-package report regarding a non-ubuntu package.  Should I open an apport task for it?
[17:27] <cjwatson> upstart doesn't know how to talk to your X display, so is inappropriate for graphical applications
[17:27] <cjwatson> vadi2: remember that a normal gksudo-ed application would do the same thing ...
[17:27] <jcristau> vadi2: you don't put in the root password for login
[17:27] <cjwatson> I think he meant the sudo password, which == the user password
[17:28] <vadi2> Yes.
[17:28] <jcristau> ah. yeah, ignore me :)
[17:28] <vadi2> I find it a bit silly to bug the user for the same password twice. Is there a set policy on this though?
[17:28] <cjwatson> this is a normal property of the Ubuntu desktop. Elevating to root privileges requires additional confirmation.
[17:28] <cjwatson> (otherwise you might as well just run the whole thing as root)
[17:29] <cronholio> hi guys, launchpad user 10111 and i want to work on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/webcam - we wrote emails to the creator of the blueprint as well as the mentor withiout getting a reply - any ideas or anyone that would mentor us?
[17:29] <vadi2> cjwatson: alright, thank you.
[17:29] <cjwatson> vadi2: your options include: rewrite application to not require root, or to use PolicyKit, or similar; use a setuid helper to launch the application (and figure out how to make that safe); accept the current situation
[17:30] <vadi2> We were looking into PolicyKit actually before. That can be used not to require the password?
[17:30] <cjwatson> cronholio: that blueprint was created inappropriately by a user who was trying to use it to make a wishlist request. I don't think there's any need for you to treat it as blocking you in any way if you want to work on it
[17:30] <cjwatson> vadi2: it would provide a different experience. Compare e.g. the GNOME system tools
[17:32] <cronholio> cjwatson, yeah but the problem is we have no experience in working for ubuntu, though we have programming experience, and we need to know if the app/feaure is still needed and someone that can provide minimal mentoring to help us integrate the app in ubuntu
[17:32] <cjwatson> if you can't even tell whether it's needed, are you sure you're the best person to work on it? ;-)
[17:32] <vadi2> cjwatson: Okay, thank you for your input!
[17:32] <cjwatson> (no offence) the very first step ought to be caring about it yourself
[17:33] <cjwatson> cronholio: remember, *anyone* can create a blueprint. That wasn't created by anyone on the Ubuntu development team
[17:33] <cronholio> cjwatson: well we both have working webcams but i guess some people do not :-)
[17:33] <vadi2> We do require root to even start (as we can't get the info we need without root). So... looks like password it is.
[17:34] <cjwatson> it's going to be very difficult for you to work on something that doesn't affect you personally. Some experienced people can do that but it takes a lot of work
[17:34] <mvo> vadi2: out of curiosty, what does this app do?
[17:35] <cjwatson> cronholio: it would be better to have made some fairly substantial progress on your own before looking for mentoring, I think; you ought to decide what you're going to do and lay out a design
[17:35] <cjwatson> then you can ask for design review; not many people are going to step up for mentoring in a vacuum, though
[17:35] <vadi2> mvo: manage ufw with buttons. While really, it in no way needs to be auto-started, people still have the idea that if it's not running, the firewall isn't active. And there are some very dangerous "tips" on the web now on how to make it autostart. So we want to implement a "proper" way before these tips get too popular.
[17:36] <cronholio> cjwatson: ok thanks, probably that's a good idea. i checked and found that these webcam drivers are not installed by default so probably this app would make sense to have
[17:37] <cjwatson> cronholio: consider whether they should simply be installed by default rather than creating a complex infrastructure to download them on the fly
[17:37] <mvo> vadi2: if all you need is a read-only view you may write a dbus backend that runs as root and is able to read the values, then you can use policykit to restrict the read to certain groups (e.g. admin). for the enable/disable stuff you can use the same mechanism, just add a confirmation step (like in gnome-system-tools)
[17:37] <cjwatson> cronholio: if the space increase is not too great, that would be a much more normal Ubuntu approach
[17:37] <cronholio> cjwatson: will do, thx again
[17:38] <vadi2> mvo: Thank you! That sounds great. We'll look into it.
[17:39] <ion_> benc: http://heh.fi/tmp/grub_0.97-29ubuntu32.debdiff
[17:43] <johanbr> cronholio: I'm not sure exactly what the blueprint is asking for. The gspca kernel module is already included, and Cheese can record video (although not upload it to youtube).
[17:44] <rubikcube> could someone please tell me if the possible contents of /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.local are made by ubuntu or if I made them myself?
[17:45] <cjwatson> we don't ship blacklist.local; it's, well, local :)
[17:45] <rubikcube> that's why I was wondering :-)
[17:45] <rubikcube> but I couldn't remember editing it either ;-)
[17:47] <rubikcube> And I was wondering why those modules weren't loaded
[17:49] <cronholio> johanbr, the blueprint is asking for an app that downloads the webcam driver according to the usb device id
[17:49] <cronholio> if the gspca module supports all these then we don't need it at all
[17:50] <johanbr> cronholio: Downloads what, exactly?
[17:50] <cronholio> johanbr, the drivers from http://mxhaard.free.fr/spca5xx.html
[17:51] <johanbr> Again, the gspca driver is a kernel module and already included in the standard ubuntu kernel.
[17:52] <cronholio> johanbr, ok thx, i guess it is not needed then, i will update the info in the blueprint
[18:21] <slangasek> calc: is OOo happier now with libltdl -dev provides?
[18:29] <calc> slangasek: it seems to build ok, the problem was that some of its build-depends required the provides
[18:29]  * slangasek nods
[19:23] <Riddell> tkamppeter: do you know that hal-cups-utils can't be installed?
[19:24] <Riddell> python-usb needs a main inclusion report
[19:25] <tkamppeter> Riddell, thanks for telling me. I will post it. The package looks small for me, should not break the CDs.
[19:27] <BenC> ion_: Uploaded fixed grub, thanks
[19:28] <ion_> benc: Thanks
[19:45] <pitti> bdmurray: please, that's worth investigating; thanks!
[19:48] <bdmurray> pitti: its bug 252734
[19:55] <alex-weej> question
[19:55] <alex-weej> the PC speaker in a macbook pro seems to not be connected
[19:55] <alex-weej> yet ALSA is now exposing a device for it
[19:56] <alex-weej> this needs a fix in... HAL?
[19:57] <alex-weej> it's clearly on the chipset, just not used by the builders
[20:09] <slangasek> fta: is anything happening with bug #218534 for seamonkey?  this has been sitting at the top of the bug list for intrepid for some time now
[20:15] <Keybuk> dear Intrepid,
[20:15] <Keybuk> X server
[20:15] <Keybuk> Useful
[20:15] <Keybuk> Love, Keybuk
[20:17] <BenC> Dear Intrepid,
[20:17] <BenC> Shutdown != Logout
[20:17] <Keybuk> BenC: I can't fix that bug, because the kernel doesn't let me have an X server to start with <g>
[20:17] <ion_> Dear Interpid,
[20:17] <ion_> Please make me some coffee.
[20:18] <Keybuk> BenC: oh, and sound doesn't work either
[20:18] <Keybuk> so the latest kernel has no sound or graphics
[20:18] <Keybuk> keyboard seems to work though ;)
[20:18] <BenC> Keybuk: I thought you knew we enabled CONFIG_KERNEL_REQUIRES_STROKING...you have to tell it nice things for it to work
[20:19] <BenC> Using a goofy baby voice is optional, but reported to help
[20:19] <Keybuk> I tried that
[20:19] <Keybuk> I think that it hates Intel and it hates Dell
[20:19] <mkrufky> ...i havent logged into Launchpad for a few days.... now i did, and the Belmont stuff is all screwed up
[20:19] <mkrufky> i cant find my bugs anymore
[20:20] <mkrufky> and i have no idea how to navigate
[20:20] <mkrufky> wth happened here?
[20:20] <mkrufky> oh, oops... my bad ...
[20:20] <mkrufky> its funny how i find the answer the moment AFTER i complain
[20:24] <slangasek> seb128: is bug #210468 still applicable to intrepid?
[20:24] <seb128> slangasek: yes
[20:24] <slangasek> darn
[20:24] <slangasek> :)
[20:24] <seb128> why?
[20:24] <slangasek> because it's on my List
[20:25] <slangasek> and I was hoping the fix was in intrepid since it was an SRU :)
[20:29] <seb128> slangasek: fix uploaded to intrepid now
[20:30] <calc> OOo is failing in weird ways on me :-\
[20:30]  * calc hopes to have it figured out and uploaded (to ppa) by the end of the night
[20:39] <slangasek> seb128: cheers :)
[20:54] <hachi> morning, this may be a bit offtopic, but in the last week nobody on #ubuntu has had a clue... I'm trying to find how you can specify the filename of the filesystem for casper. I've been reading the startup scripts in the initramfs and just can't make heads or tails of it.
[20:56] <hachi> ahh, forgot the question part. Do any of you happen to know what the options may be, or where this might be documented?
[20:57] <tormod> hachi: documentation for casper? lol
[20:58] <hachi> well, on the upside I finally know that there is no documentation
[20:58] <hachi> though you could have told me without laughing at me
[20:59] <tormod> hachi: :) maybe we are less off-topic in #ubuntu-installer
[21:47] <pitti> Keybuk, BenC: FYI, I updated bug 253076 with my experiences, since you subscribed me
[21:52] <Keybuk> cool
[21:54] <ScottK> pitti: Does your revised regex for ubuntu.com addresses in dpkg allow kubuntu.org addresses?
[22:03] <asac> jdstrand, did you respin ffox 3?
[22:04] <asac> jdong, why?
[22:04] <jdstrand> asac: yes, had too-- the -updates packages pulled in pango that was only in -updates, so it was uninstallable in -security
[22:04] <asac> err, jdstrand
[22:04] <asac> hmm
[22:05] <jdstrand> asac: no change rebuild
[22:05] <jdstrand> (just bumped the version and ran through dak)
[22:05] <asac> yeah. someone complains about font regressions now
[22:05] <asac> jdstrand, can you commit that change to bzr?
[22:05] <asac> e.g. the changelog
[22:06] <jdstrand> asac: sure, can you point me to it?
[22:06] <asac> jdstrand, its in debian/control
[22:06] <asac> ;)
[22:06] <jdstrand> oh, duh
[22:06] <asac> should be lp:~mozillateam/firefox/firefox-3.0.hardy
[22:06] <asac> most likely not in control :-D
[22:07] <asac> jdstrand, let me add you to mozteam then
[22:07] <jdstrand> asac: I had to do the same with xulrunner-1.9
[22:08] <asac> jdstrand, ok. whats your lp id?
[22:08] <jdstrand> asac: jdstrand
[22:08] <asac> jdstrand, xulrunner is lp:~mozillateam/xulrunner/xulrunner-1.9.hardy
[22:08] <asac> ok have to move the conference room
[22:08] <jdstrand> asac: ok
[22:08] <asac> jdstrand, thanks a lot
[22:09] <jdstrand> asac: np
[22:11] <jdstrand> asac: this ff3 update highlighted a number of issues that we can improve on in the future. I have updates SecurityUpdateProcedures and talked to all the archive admins about not pocket copying from -poposed to -updates a package that ultimately needs to go to -security
[22:12] <jdstrand> asac: however, you mentioning the font regression when built against released pango illustrates that the PPA builds need to have -udpdates disabled as well
[22:13] <jdstrand> asac: (in case you didn't know or infer from what happened, people are supposed to be able to get all -security updates without having -updates enabled, therefore the buildds can't have -updates enabled either for anything in -security)
[22:14] <jdstrand> asac: security-in-soyuz will help with all of this, btw
[22:23] <bondolo> hello, how do I make a launchpad bug depend upon another bug? (I'd like to make 154038 and 238977 depend upon 251369)
[22:23] <totopalma> hello
[22:24] <LaserJock> bondolo: I don't think you can, but you can link to other bugs by just doing "bug #251369" in the description/comment
[22:25] <totopalma> Riddell, can you please take a look at bug #39383 ?
[22:26] <cprov> hi guys, do you know from where synaptic downloads the so-called "changelog" information ?
[22:27] <LaserJock> cprov: changelogs.ubuntu.com perhaps?
[22:28] <cprov> LaserJock: yes, good. Do you know how it's built ?
[22:28] <LaserJock> cprov: my guess is from the archive
[22:29] <LaserJock> extracting perhaps from the source package
[22:29] <cprov> LaserJock: right, some apt-ftparchive spell on top of a.u.c
[22:30] <LaserJock> ah, it looks like it's actually extracting from the .debs
[22:32] <LaserJock> at least the .copyrights are per-.deb
[23:34] <emgent> evening
[23:36]  * ion_ ♥ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Intrepid/GuestAccount
[23:39] <__keybuk> I've been thinking about InitKit again over the last few days
[23:39] <__keybuk> oops, ww
[23:40] <__keybuk> ion_: your message here confused me ;)
[23:40] <ion_> :-)
[23:44] <calc> did mv used to not return an error code if the file was non-existant in hardy timeframe?
[23:45] <slangasek> only if it was buggy..
[23:46] <calc> hmm
[23:46] <calc> i'm getting a failure that should have failed in the past, trying to look at a buildd log now to see why it didn't fail before
[23:49] <calc> oh hmm the file i thought didn't exist actually should so the problem is apparently it doesn't now
[23:55] <calc> slangasek: if i just add a line in rules: ls foo   it will show the dir contents in the build log, right?
[23:56] <slangasek> yes
[23:56] <calc> ok