[09:38] <rbtsfd> #RuleZ-ManiA
[11:23] <jluc> Hello
[11:23] <jluc> i upgraded a lubuntu 6 year old computer from 20.04 to version 22.10
[11:24] <jluc> everything is fine except it is now much slower
[11:24] <jluc> is there something i can do to recover some speed ?
[11:25] <guiverc> 20.04 had an upgrade path to the next release (ie. 20.10) or to the next LTS (22.04), not to 22.10
[11:25] <jluc> yes i first upgraded to 22.04
[11:25] <jluc> and then accepted the 22.10 proposal
[11:27] <jluc> "much slower" is a bit strong. Let's just say it is "slower"
[11:28] <guiverc> ack...   firefox is now a snap package (a little slower to initially start but ~similar once going), the confinement may use a touch more RAM though; LXQt I believe has grown (due added features)..  but I can't recall much else changing that would cause 'slowness' sorry
[11:28] <jluc> Could be FF
[11:29] <jluc> i can try installing it the old way
[11:29]  * guiverc uses older boxes (2008 & 2009) thus would expect to notice slowness... I have 8GB of RAM though; I notice it more on boxes with less RAM even if newer CPUs
[11:31] <guiverc> At present all I can think of relates to RAM (not speed; if box has limited RAM you may notice it... Check you have swap setup though & sufficient swap!)
[11:34] <jluc> ok i'll try n have a look
[11:35] <guiverc> on low resources boxes (esp. low RAM), setting up Swap (with sufficient size) really makes a huge difference


[04:16] <binox> im hoping to find help with removing litestep and replacing it with explorer on my windows partition by using ubuntu, can anyone hlep
[04:17] <nhandler> binox: Try #ubuntu for support
[04:18] <binox> ty
[14:55] <broeisi> exit
[14:58] <gaurav__> hi guys
[14:59] <GauravButola> need help regardin Glade Interface Designer
[15:00] <serfus> GauravButola, this is not the channel you are looking for.
[15:00] <serfus> GauravButola, search for more info at http://glade.gnome.org/
[15:02] <GauravButola> serfus: I thought someone experienced might help hear, will seet the link BTW thanks
[15:02] <GauravButola> here*
[17:26]  * jcastro taps the mic
[17:26] <jcastro> check check
[17:26] <jcastro> raise your hand if you're almost ready for Q+A!
[17:26] <deuxpi> o/
[17:27] <nigelb> \o
[17:27] <DBO> o/
[17:28] <jono> bring it!
[17:31] <jono> alright!
[17:31] <jono> hi everyone!
[17:31] <jono> welcome to yet another weekly IRC Q+A session - no better way to top off your week than getting the answers to all your burning questions!
[17:31] <jono> today we have a real treat - David Barth, the Desktop Experience Engineering Manager
[17:32] <dbarth> hi everyone
[17:32] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/08/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[17:32] <jono> what does that mean? it means that David manages the engineers who work on Unity, the application indicators, notify-osd, the global menu and many of the other desktop
[17:32] <jono> innovations we ship in Ubuntu
[17:33] <jono> he is dbarth on IRC, he is here, and he is primed to answer all your questions
[17:33] <jono> asking a question is simple:
[17:33] <jono> 1. make sure you are in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[17:33] <jono> 2. ask a question by prefixing it with 'QUESTION' - as an example: QUESTION: when can we expect a new icon theme for Unity?
[17:33] <jono> 3. dbarth will go through the questions one by one
[17:34] <jono> alright, so without further ado - ladies and gentlemen...boys and girls...dbarth!
[17:34] <dbarth> thanks jono!
[17:34] <jono> :-)
[17:34] <dbarth> wow, i see lots of people here on the channel
[17:34] <ClassBot> zamm asked: Why can't we minimnize windows when we click on active icons in unity launcher?
[17:34] <dbarth> let's see the questions then
[17:35] <dbarth> it's mostly a desgin question, but i'll try to asnwer
[17:35] <dbarth> the purpose of the launcher is to switch between applications, tasks
[17:35] <dbarth> it's not really a window manager
[17:35] <dbarth> it's a task manager
[17:36] <dbarth> there are some options in the quicklists associated with launchers to let you open a new window sometimes
[17:36] <dbarth> but again this belongs to the task oriented nature of the launcher
[17:36] <dbarth> to manage windows, we provide buttons on the top panel, next to the application name
[17:36] <dbarth> does that answer your question?
[17:37] <ClassBot> jono asked: When can we expect to see a fresh icon theme?
[17:38] <dbarth> ahah, another design question
[17:38] <dbarth> i'm better at nuts and bolts you know, but the short asnwer shoud be: next cycle
[17:39] <dbarth> the icon theme requires some non trivial efforts to manage all constraints and design directions
[17:39] <dbarth> and for natty, unity on the desktop took most of the cycles available in the team
[17:39] <ClassBot> AlanBell asked: why does unity not get affected by compiz zoom and colour filters?
[17:40] <dbarth> not affected? what do you mean?
[17:40] <DBO> I got this one :)
[17:40] <DBO> Unity is rendered by a toolkit called Nux
[17:40] <dbarth> DBO: go ahead
[17:41] <DBO> nux is quite nice but as of yet does not understand the methods compiz uses to transform the screen
[17:41] <DBO> this means that compiz will transform, but nux stays nice and centered
[17:42] <DBO> this is nice for some things (like expo mode), not nice for others (liek screen zoom)
[17:42] <ClassBot> paglia_s asked: when  will we be able to theme unity?
[17:43] <dbarth> well, you can already theme a bit of it
[17:43] <dbarth> mostly for accessibility reasons
[17:43] <dbarth> ie, to provide a high contrast theme for people with disabilities
[17:43] <dbarth> unity is not really designed to be themable
[17:43] <dbarth> it can use theme elements (colors, fonts, etc.) where it makes sense
[17:44] <dbarth> but in general is designed to be "as it is"
[17:44] <dbarth> the underlying reason for that is mostly consistency and visual identity
[17:45] <dbarth> consistency to be able to use visual elements made of colors, shapes and other forms or artwork
[17:45] <dbarth> to quickly convey something that is meaninful to the user
[17:46] <dbarth> themability is then difficult to get into the mix, as it would blur some of that, and render the interface unintelligible, where it's not using explicit text or icons
[17:46] <ClassBot> Rajiv_ asked: how much energy efficient does it going to be ??
[17:46] <dbarth> energy efficient
[17:46] <dbarth> by that i assume you mean: how much do we care about battery life
[17:47] <dbarth> we do care a lot
[17:47] <dbarth> my engineers do care an awful lot
[17:47] <dbarth> they go to great extents to not use battery too much
[17:47] <dbarth> in particular, that's reflected in the GL toolkit we're using in Unity
[17:48] <dbarth> to go super fast to the GPU
[17:48] <dbarth> but avoid redrawing everytime
[17:48] <dbarth> or in the way ARGB windows are used and how they are "deployed" in different processes
[17:48] <dbarth> to avoid having the drivers suck the battery themselves
[17:49] <dbarth> so, to summarize, the rendering side of Unity has been really designed from the ground up to be energy efficient
[17:49] <dbarth> we probably have more work to do on other areas
[17:49] <dbarth> but that will be a good topic for O
[17:50] <ClassBot> Winterpeg asked: Would Ubuntu provide an easy way to install Gnome 3 in both LTS and interim versions? I am trying Unity, but would welcome the ability to choose. Thank you.
[17:50] <dbarth> i must admit i don't know
[17:50] <dbarth> i haven't test gnome 3 that much since the last uds
[17:51] <jcastro> GNOME3 is available in a PPA
[17:51] <dbarth> i guess its a question better answered by the desktop team
[17:51] <dbarth> right, thanks jcastro
[17:51] <dbarth> most of our libraries have flags to build with gnome3 however
[17:51] <dbarth> so we're ready for the switch
[17:54] <ClassBot> Walther0 asked: Is the Unity bar going to remain as is? The dock-like behavior is not working intuitively - only way to get the last application icons to show properly is to drag the mouse sideways from the very bottom or by scrolling the list, not by the intuitive way as Cairo-dock or Awn, by just moving the mouse the previous application icons "dodge"
[17:55] <dbarth> hmm, the autoscroll behavior you mean?
[17:55] <dbarth> it's there but was disabled during the cycle, and we're still testing to see if that can be re-established safely
[17:56] <dbarth> the short and simple asnwer is: we'll ship like it is; we may provide a SRU/ppa version once we finish testing
[17:57] <dbarth> but the launcher bar will continue to evolve and improve in O
[17:57] <ClassBot> shauno asked: What's the logic behind a window's label being positioned differently relative to the global menu, depending on the maximized (or not) state of the window?
[17:59] <dbarth> asking for clarification in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, sorry ;)
[18:00] <dbarth> well, so the idea is that
[18:00] <dbarth> 1. the application name and window title is the important information
[18:00] <dbarth> so we prioritiez that in the panel initially
[18:01] <dbarth> 2. we want to keep that information around, as the user interacts with menus
[18:01] <dbarth> but we don't want to have menus slide far on the right
[18:01] <dbarth> so we take a fixed size thing and fade
[18:01] <dbarth> that's the design we've worked on this cycle; we're hearing the feedback, and we'll see how that can evolve next cycle
[18:02] <dbarth> i feel the balance between information and usability is corect right now
[18:02] <dbarth> but we're always thinking about new and better ways to refine that
[18:02] <ClassBot> davmor2 asked: Is the plan to keep using compiz or will this be swapped out for clutter possibly again in the future?
[18:03] <dbarth> hmm
[18:03] <dbarth> first let me say again that the clutter change was not decided easily
[18:03] <dbarth> but basically we were hitting a limit
[18:04] <dbarth> compiz pretty much allows us to integrate with the window manager and still bring our own rendering infrastructure with us
[18:04] <dbarth> as DBO explained
[18:04] <dbarth> so to anwer your question
[18:05] <dbarth> no, we don't intend to switch once more
[18:05] <dbarth> we'll continue investing into Unity, as a compiz plugin
[18:05] <dbarth> and continue to invest in making compiz a good host for our shell
[18:05] <ClassBot> nigelb asked: Last cycle Unity had a bunch of issues with accessiblity, how are we doing on that front at the end of this cycle? Are you happy with the pace of things on this front?
[18:05] <dbarth> no
[18:05] <dbarth> i'm not
[18:06] <dbarth> rather
[18:06] <dbarth> i had hoped to have a lot more ready for release time, and we're not totally there
[18:06] <dbarth> we do have panel and launcher accessible
[18:06] <dbarth> we have parts of the dash (particularly alt-f2) working in a branch
[18:07] <dbarth> but i had hoped to have unity be the default choice for people with disabilities either
[18:07] <dbarth> instead of that, we'll recommend using the classic session for this cycle
[18:07] <dbarth> i think that it has become the official decision at this point
[18:08] <dbarth> that said, i want to underline the efforts that have been made on the a11y front
[18:08] <dbarth> it was not easy
[18:08] <dbarth> but we've made sure all of the unity building blocks pretty much understand the a11y requirements now
[18:09] <ClassBot> nshiell asked: Do you see Unity being used on the Desktop (or ust for small screens e.g. netbooks)?
[18:09] <dbarth> honestly both
[18:10] <dbarth> what we've learned by starting on netbooks and small screens
[18:10] <dbarth> means that we've learned and focused on what's essential for users
[18:10] <dbarth> so it applies rather nicely to desktop and big screens
[18:10] <dbarth> now, the 2 form factors are different
[18:11] <dbarth> but the work that we've done during this cycle was to make the changes necessary to scale
[18:11] <dbarth> to larger screens
[18:11] <dbarth> more viewports for example
[18:11] <dbarth> better multi-monitor support
[18:11] <dbarth> or a window mode / partial overlay for the dash
[18:11] <dbarth> and the challenge of getting all apps to use the global menu
[18:12] <dbarth> with some very good results
[18:12] <dbarth> with most if not all of the top apps being compatible with it inow
[18:12] <dbarth> all gnome apps
[18:12] <dbarth> plus firefox and thunderbird
[18:12] <dbarth> Libre Office even
[18:12] <dbarth> i wish we could have chromium now
[18:13] <dbarth> let's see in Oniric
[18:15] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Apparently Unity might not be default for 11.04, because of bugs, and instead Ubuntu Classic Desktop, what do you think?
[18:15] <dbarth> nice, fully loaded, question ;)
[18:16] <dbarth> we are committing to providing a quality shell for Ubuntu
[18:16] <dbarth> committed even
[18:16] <dbarth> all of the teams in Ubuntu do test our work, and provide us with their frank, honest feedback
[18:17] <dbarth> and sometimes i take big slaps, i can tell you
[18:17] <dbarth> but if i look at the test resutls
[18:18] <dbarth> it tells me that we're good to go for Natty
[18:18] <dbarth> we have no major regression, we have no nuclear issue anymore
[18:18] <dbarth> we're still monitoring bugs every hours, especially now that we're in beta
[18:18] <dbarth> and we won't stop until the cd ships
[18:19] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What do you think of Gnome Shell?
[18:21] <dbarth> i think Gnome Shell is an interesting project
[18:21] <dbarth> for providing a a new shell for the Gnome Platform
[18:21] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:22] <dbarth> Unity is another interesting project pursuing a similar goal
[18:23] <ClassBot> th3pr0ph3t asked: When finished, will Unity have the same features as gnome or are users expected to change the way they work?
[18:25] <dbarth> there is a definition problem here, in fact
[18:26] <dbarth> if you mean gnome classic (ie 2.x) probably not, though we're taking that as a baseline
[18:26] <dbarth> because it has been the default desktop in all of Ubuntu before
[18:26] <dbarth> now, Unity obviosuly is not the classic session, so users may have to change some of their habits
[18:26] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:27] <dbarth> we think (and our user researches show it) that we're making changes in the right direction
[18:27] <dbarth> to have a more usable desktop
[18:27] <dbarth> not only for normal computer users, but for people new or not accustomed to them
[18:28] <dbarth> now, the Gnome project provides both a platform and has different shells now
[18:28] <dbarth> (though GS would prefer to consider itself the one and only)
[18:28] <dbarth> so users will have to try and choose the one they prefer
[18:28] <dbarth> that's coopetition
[18:29] <ClassBot> basso asked: Some docks have problem putting wine shortcuts, how does unity handle this?
[18:30] <dbarth> yes, we still have a problem with those shortcuts
[18:31] <dbarth> we have the best guys on the problem though
[18:31] <dbarth> we kidnapped the Docky team
[18:31] <DBO> yeah
[18:31] <DBO> wine is still an issue
[18:31] <DBO> we are working on it
[18:31] <dbarth> we've trapped them in a room
[18:31] <dbarth> no food until you find
[18:31] <dbarth> etc.
[18:31] <dbarth> it's a really hard problem
[18:31] <dbarth> but they're on it
[18:31] <dbarth> we'll try to find a good solution for Oniric
[18:31] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/08/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
[18:31] <dbarth> DBO: ;)
[18:32] <dbarth> thanks folks
[18:32] <dbarth> it was a pleasure
[18:32] <dbarth> i'm sorry i can't stay right now to take more questions informally
[18:32] <nigelb> Thanks dbarth :)
[18:32] <dbarth> (doctor appointment for the kid that can't wait)
[18:32] <dbarth> but i'll be back a bit later
[18:32] <dbarth> and you can always fine me (us, the Unity guys) in #ayatana
[18:32] <dbarth> cheers


[09:24] <k1l_> butterme2ted<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is a german troll who is banned from all german ubuntu channels and today ban evading to spam his warsow reddit links. now just happening in -offtopic
[10:23] <ikonia> always good to know
[11:17] <DJones> ikonia: Thats the best comment/explanation I've seen for somebody not needing an excrypted /home, it makes complete sense for probably 99% of home users
[11:21] <ikonia> it's the worst thing ubuntu has done putting the encyption on the installer as an option
[12:08] <LjL-Alps> you're right - it should be default, but one step at a time
[12:11] <IdleOne> I blame the media for making it seem like "hackers" want to take every schmucks data out there.
[12:12] <jussi> i blame IdleOne... for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[12:12] <IdleOne> you should
[12:12] <IdleOne> :)
[12:12] <k1l_> i think there are reasons to use encryption. but they are not warez or "i am so important"
[12:13] <LjL-Alps> i think there should be a general culture of privacy and encryption by default that's sorely lacking.
[12:13] <DJones> And the 13:10 BST comments in #u by cheesec4k3 completely bear out the earlier conversation
[12:13] <IdleOne> most users have no real need for encryption
[12:14] <k1l_> LjL: well, you need a behaviour fitting to the encryption. there is no need to encrypt your whole drive and all pictures if you load them up to facebook anyway
[12:37] <LjL-Alps> k1l_, there's probably no "need" to encrypt most of my phonecalls, as only a small number will have anything resembling sensitive information, yet i generally take it for granted (even though the actual encryption is weak) that a random someone can't just put a radio receiver between me and the cell tower
[12:43] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: is that actually a problem where you live?
[12:43] <IdleOne> people scanning cell signals to try and get info?
[12:44] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: probably not, *because* cell signals are encrypted. if people were still using analog (TACS) phones, then *i* could plug in my RTLSDR card and listen. (or for that matter, i could bother to learn how to break GSM's very poor encryption and use the RTLSDR for that)
[12:44] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: an RTLSDR card costs between $10 and $20, by the way
[12:45] <IdleOne> nice, so the barrier to becoming a crook is not too high.
[12:45] <IdleOne> that is good.
[12:47] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne, considering everyone gets a bunch of phishing emails and hacking attempts every day, i really don't see why one would assume things like phonecalls are not routinely phished.
[12:47] <IdleOne> One more reason why I don't own or want a cell phone
[12:47] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: i hope you don't have a landline either, since that's easier to tap into
[12:47] <AlanBell> encryption is a good thing, if people look after their private keys, which means they need to be used for everything and be of value
[12:48] <k1l_> do smoke signals still work these days? :)
[12:48] <AlanBell> home folder encryption kind of guards against a threat that isn't very real
[12:48] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: We do but I only conduct my international criminal activities face to face in the middle of the desert. Like they thought us in spy school
[12:49] <IdleOne> dessert? the one with all the sand
[12:49] <k1l_> as long as the same people give all their data and informations away for free or for some refund i dont think they need encryption at all
[12:49] <LjL-Alps> i won't get into how useful home folder encryption specifically is. however, i take issue with the stance that "if you don't have a specific need for encryption, then don't encrypt", which translates into the trite "what's the problem as long as you've got nothing to hide"
[12:50] <LjL-Alps> k1l_, that fails to take context into account. i might (not saying i am) be ok with giving Google some data because i believe they will use them for some things i am ok with, yet *not* be ok with giving the same data to someone who's just stolen my laptop
[12:50] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: my problem with home folder encryption is that people spew out all their info over the facebooks and twits anyway. So all they are protecting is stuff they are giving out for free anyway
[12:50] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: see above
[12:50] <IdleOne> I just read :)
[12:51] <k1l_> LjL-Alps: yes, i dont like the "nothing to hide" thing, too. but i dont see a point in making fort knox on the one side and shoveling all the data out at the other end
[12:51] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: it depends which data you can correlate with which.
[12:51] <jussi> anyone got any objections to that one?
[12:52] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: you may want to give person A datum X because as long as they don't also have datum Y, they can't infer things you don't want them to, yet withhold X from B because B has Y
[12:52] <IdleOne> jussi: looks fine to me
[12:52] <jussi> !no !support-#kubuntu-offtopic is <reply> The official Kubuntu support channel is #kubuntu. Also see http://kubuntu.org/support and http://kubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
[12:52] <jussi> !support-#kubuntu-offtopic is <reply> The official Kubuntu support channel is #kubuntu. Also see http://kubuntu.org/support and http://kubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
[12:53] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: I agree, but that requires a conscious application of personal security at all times, which we know most users are incapable of doing.
[12:54] <k1l_> LjL-Alps: besides a very small group of users i dont see the average joe is capable of doingt that
[12:55] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne, it's easy to consider all users stupid when the general culture that everyone has contributed to creating is one of "no privacy unless you need it, no encryption unless you need it". the general culture when, say, this WeChat "app" makes commercial on TV about giving me "free" text messages (and yet being able to afford TV commercials) should be "what?! i'm not feeding a company all my private messages in plain text"
[12:56] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: yet none of my friends seems to have a problem with using Whatsapp (or however it's spelled) because hey, it's ok for your private communication to be under constant scrutiny, what i'm being taught is only crooks wouldn't want that
[12:56] <IdleOne> I'm not calling people stupid. I am saying that people get lazy and even if they start with good practices they soon find it is easier to just go with it.
[12:57] <LjL-Alps> IdleOne: good practices are being made so needlessly complicated and absurd, and oftentimes illegal, not to mention frowned upon by the masses, it's very unsurprising people very quickly give up on them. but i wouldn't blame it on *them*.
[12:58] <IdleOne> I spent years keeping my personal info concealed (name, city I live in...) after a while I just got tired of fighting the system and gave in. Now google/yahoo/facebook/younameit all know who I am.
[12:58] <k1l_> i dont think the masses are interested in that at all
[12:58] <LjL-Alps> reminds me of the netbook "failure", even though it's unrelated. computer companies decreed netbooks had "failed" with the general public, and tablets were all the new rage... after they'd (purposely?) made no technological progress on netbooks for a couple of years, and only talked tablet tablet tablet tablet
[12:58] <k1l_> most people just dont care if google or whatsapp or facebook takes the data
[12:58] <IdleOne> LjL-Alps: I agree, the media and software companies make it too complicated for people to care.
[12:59] <k1l_> not everyone is a nerd who hides under a luminium hat.
[12:59] <LjL-Alps> k1l_: yes, indeed. and why aren't they? that's what i'm pondering. that's what i call the "general culture". it should be TAUGHT and ENCOURAGED and it should PERMEATE general culture that privacy is private, yet all that's ever done is paying lip service to it (by making laws that generally makes things less private than before)
[12:59] <LjL-Alps> ah fuck it
[13:00] <LjL-Alps> i knew it would end with nerds and hats
[13:00] <k1l_> and yes, encryption is still made way to complicated.
[13:00] <LjL-Alps> i just don't know why when i decide i should shut up, i don't
[13:00] <IdleOne> :(
[13:00] <k1l_> :/
[13:00] <IdleOne> not sure why he got upset
[13:01] <k1l_> i think it was my aluminium hat remark. but that wasnt meant to be personal attacking :/
[13:02] <k1l_> i just wanted to point to the difference to a small group of advanced users in difference to the masses
[13:21] <IdleOne> ubottu: project-neon is <alias> neon
[13:23] <IdleOne> !neon
[13:25] <IdleOne> This team needs some new blood
[13:33] <ikonia> which team ?
[13:33] <ikonia> the neon team ?
[13:38] <IdleOne> the ops team
[13:39] <ikonia> oh, why do you think that ?
[13:40] <IdleOne> Just cause it is good to get new ideas in the mix every now and then
[13:40] <ikonia> that sounds like just saying it for the sake of saying it
[13:40] <ikonia> to be honest, there is very little the team needs to do, and it's pretty restrictive about what can be done
[13:40] <ikonia> so I'm not sure what "new ideas" are needed
[13:41] <ikonia> charter keep channels flowing and inline with policy"
[13:41] <IdleOne> you might be right.
[13:42] <ikonia> I don't know if I am
[13:42] <ikonia> I don't really care if there are new people/no new people
[13:42] <ikonia> there just doesn't seem much scope to do "something"
[15:37] <IdleOne> keep an eye on bhavesh, his help is less than helpful
[15:40] <IdleOne> also I think x-s4nd3r is just wasting time
[15:40] <ikonia> of course he is
[15:40] <ikonia> that's why he's quoting that websit
[15:40] <ikonia> site
[15:45] <ikonia> that website is some made fools fantasy
[15:45] <ikonia> there is so little based on fact on it, it's untrue
[15:46] <IdleOne> I would like to know precisely what data leaks there are
[15:46] <ikonia> it's just some guy making stuff up
[15:46] <ikonia> and it's so badly thought through it's untrue
[15:46] <IdleOne> if the definition is broad enough I suppose anything is a data leak
[15:46] <ikonia> he's saying pidgin is safe - but msn isn't
[15:46] <ikonia> even though pidgin connects to the msn network
[15:46] <ikonia> so they monitor at the SERVER not the client
[15:47] <ikonia> and other such stupid thought processes
[15:47] <DJones> Last I tried, pidgin no longer works with MSN, so that arguement would be useless
[15:47] <ikonia> same thing though
[15:47] <ikonia> it's just basically a propritary - opensource list
[15:48] <ikonia> saying "propritary "MAY" be controlled by the gonvernment
[15:48] <ikonia> it's stupid
[15:48] <ikonia> lotus notes is on there....
[15:48] <IdleOne> I imagine is practically impossible to stay off the radar of NSA or any gov agency no matter what software you use. As long as you connect to a server they monitor you are giving them info.
[15:48] <ikonia> I don't know what people thing they are doing, I really don't
[15:48] <IdleOne> false sense of security is what they are doing
[15:48] <ikonia> don't use this mail client !!! people are watching you !!!!
[15:49] <ikonia> but then they send the email out in plaintext across the internet snooped by all ISP's anyway
[15:50] <DJones> I don't honestly think anybody can guarantee that any communication method is secure, post can be opened before delivery, emails can be read at server levels, chats can monitored, even pidgeons carrying paper messages can be bribed off course with food/shot down
[15:50] <ikonia> I do wonder what some people are doing that they feel so worried about
[15:51] <Myrtti> I use the amount of encryption that I find is feasible and has a tolerable pay/return ratio
[15:51] <IdleOne> I understand the need for privacy and I think it is unfair to use the "if you're not doing anything why worry" argument but I get what your saying
[15:51] <Myrtti> which is more than most people do, mind you
[15:51] <ikonia> Myrtti: I'm pretty sure you judge and are aware of the risks of what you send and how you send it
[15:52] <ikonia> IdleOne: you're entitled to be as private as you want
[15:52] <DJones> Probably all they're doing is reading 3rd party websites & getting caught up in paranoia, your commenty earlier about encrypted homes brought that into clarity for me
[15:52] <ikonia> IdleOne: but the level of stupidity and worry is off the chart
[15:52] <IdleOne> ikonia: indeed.
[15:52] <ikonia> such as people using certain email clients, but then sending out plain text emails
[15:52] <ikonia> if you where that worried you'd research it properly
[15:53] <ikonia> and not read some random website asking for bitcoin donations for listing opensource versions of comercial software
[15:53] <ikonia> and just saying "these "may" be a problem"
[15:53] <Myrtti> I use luks because I understand it better than encryptfs. I don't use whatsapp because I don't trust them, but I do use facebook/google products. I've started migrating my passwords from human inputs saved in the browser to random strings from keepass
[15:53] <IdleOne> I remember explaining to my dad years ago that all of his emails were potentially unsafe and that he should assume nothing was private. He didn't understand the nature of how email worked and that it passed through several hands before it got to the destination.
[15:54] <Pici> tubes :(
[15:55] <IdleOne> after that he started being a lot more careful, almost to a point of paranoia. I had to re-explain that his work emails were not of interest to anybody except to him and his intended reader. He calmed down after that.
[15:56] <IdleOne> but it just shows that people have no clue how the internet works and they just read the This is safe part and don't read further.
[15:56] <ikonia> I don't mind that people have no clue, it's not their job to
[15:56] <ikonia> I do mind people making stuff up though, or being utter stupid when you clearly explain the issue
[15:57] <ikonia> that guy who wanted to lock his ISP out of his VM at the host level because he was worried about them reading his email was prime
[15:57] <IdleOne> heh
[15:57] <ikonia> couldn't grasp his email was being sent to the mail server plain, and going out of the server plain and hte people he wanted to lock out would just read it on the gateway or relay if they wanted to
[15:57] <ikonia> but he was obsessed with it
[15:58] <ikonia> same as this guy quoteing the prism-break website written / made up by some random guy asking for bitcoins, with no fact or logic behind it
[15:58] <ikonia> I read it on a random website, nothing ot back up, just written down, it's fact
[15:58] <IdleOne> there is plenty of logic. My guess is it is intentionally worded in a way to frighten people
[16:08] <ikonia> love how stupid that prism-break site is, it says twitter is a risk and don't use it, but the author uses it and updates status on twitter https://twitter.com/zcpeng
[16:08] <Pici> heh
[16:09] <IdleOne> haha
[16:09] <Myrtti> twitter is alright if you don't use it to communicate delicate information between people in DM
[16:09] <IdleOne> DM?
[16:09] <Myrtti> and actually use it to broadcast messages publically, as it is intended
[16:09] <ikonia> Myrtti: acording to prism-break, it's bad it's a risk - don't use it,
[16:09] <Myrtti> direct message
[16:09] <Pici> Myrtti: Right.  Thats what email is for.
[16:09] <IdleOne> oh
[16:09] <ikonia> then he uses it himself,
[16:09] <ikonia> that's ammused me for today
[16:10] <Myrtti> twitter is a bit silly anyway
[16:10] <ikonia> his whole website is silly
[16:11] <Myrtti> people need to browse /r/aww more
[16:11] <IdleOne> more kittens
[16:12] <ikonia> I will go and play some games now, smug in prism-break owners shame
[16:12] <IdleOne> If an alien race ever scans the internet to learn about us they will end up killing all the kittens because they would assume they rule this planet
[16:15] <ikonia> love it "I'm building a cyber cafe but have no idea how to actually check if software works"
[16:15] <ikonia> perhaps not starting a business that relies on computers and software is a better move
[16:16] <jbroome> yikes
[16:17] <IdleOne> at least he is trying to get some sort of info
[16:17] <ikonia> the idea of me walking into a toyota garage and saying "I'm starting a car customization service, but I don't really know what spanners I need can you help" - makes me shudder, yet that's what these people do every day
[16:17] <jbroome> There was a guy that liked to hang out in #centos that's running a shell service, that he's taking $ for asking the most basic stuff
[16:17] <ikonia> jbroome: I know exactly who you mean
[16:17] <jbroome> :)
[16:18] <jbroome> Learning linux is a-ok and fine.  Taking people's money while you do it, not so much
[16:18] <ikonia> I don't mind people knowing nothing, or wanting to learn but
[16:18] <ikonia> "I'm starting a business dependant on linux, please tell me how to power it on" is just bad
[16:18] <IdleOne> there is a guy who runs a web design/hosting service in #kubuntu-offtopic who asks some basic questions too :)
[16:18] <ikonia> IdleOne: please don't start me on him
[16:19] <IdleOne> haha
[16:19] <ikonia> it actually annoys me that he charges people money for repeating what he's told in these channels
[16:19] <ikonia> I find it genuinly offensive that it's basicallly an unofficial support proxy for his business
[16:19] <IdleOne> cases like that I think we should be allowed to tell them to google it
[16:20] <jbroome> or i email them my rate sheet
[16:20] <ikonia> cases like that I think you should phone their client with a log of the "how do I setup a mail server" question, saying "this is the guy you are paying to setup and manage your mail server"
[16:22] <jbroome> ..and here's *my* rate sheet. :)
[16:22] <ikonia> here is my trackrecord, you'll notice I've not been fired from my last two jobs for telling lies about what I can do - like your current provider
[16:23] <ikonia> you are the person in questions 3rd employer, his previous two fired him after 2 weeks
[16:23] <ikonia> I suggest you re-adjust your support requirements


[02:53] <redir> Have a good weekend juju-dev
[09:13] <rock__> Hi. I have a question.  For suppose acc. to openstack-base bundle requirements I have taken machines. Which node I have to take as main node to deploy bundle? Once I deploy bundle how that bundle distribute service charms to hardware machines that we have taken?
[09:13] <rock__> please provide me the network architeture of {MAAS+openstack base bundle]  based openstack setup.
[19:05] <mup> Bug #1588041 opened: juju bootstrap with vsphere provider hangs with xenial <ci> <jujuqa> <landscape> <oil> <oil-2.0> <vsphere> <cloud-images:New> <juju:Triaged> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588041>


[17:30] <tjaalton> heh, my younger daughter (2yrs) can't get enough of matt's mugshot.. can't read the planet any further :)
[18:33] <pwnguin> mdz's hackergotchi?
[18:33] <tjaalton> yep


[12:16] <mamarley> tseliot: The bisect is complete.  The commit that causes the issue with 304 and 340 is fa5386459f06dc3b9181d4c954f980b127d1a32f (https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=fa5386459f06dc3b9181d4c954f980b127d1a32f).  I am currently looking to see if I might be able to fix the driver myself.
[12:35] <mamarley> tseliot: I tried adding DRIVER_KMS_LEGACY_CONTEXT to .driver_features in 304 and it didn't work (I still get the same "Driver 'nvidia' is already registered, aborting..." loop as before.)
[12:35] <mamarley> I don't know of anything else to try.
[12:47] <tseliot> mamarley: looking
[12:58] <tseliot> mamarley: I'll take some time today to investigate that
[12:58] <tseliot> mamarley: good work on the bisection, BTW :)
[13:14] <mamarley> tseliot: Thank my computer's processor, it did the the work! :)
[13:45] <Sarvatt> hmm looks like libxcb needs a merge since xcb-proto got synced and broke the build
[16:09] <mamarley> tseliot: I fixed the blasted thing!  It actually needs "DRIVER_LEGACY", not "DRIVER_KMS_LEGACY_CONTEXT".
[16:35] <tseliot> mamarley: I thought you had tested that
[16:35] <tseliot> mamarley: ok, let me patch the driver, test and upload
[16:45]  * tseliot building
[17:07] <tseliot> mamarley: it works fine. You're going to get credit in the changelog ;)
[17:07] <mamarley> Thanks! :)
[17:08] <tseliot> thanks to you ;)
[17:09] <tseliot> mamarley: was there a bug report for that?
[17:09] <mamarley> tseliot: A bug report against the NVIDIA driver?
[17:10] <tseliot> mamarley: or against the kernel
[17:10] <mamarley> I don't think it is a bug in the kernel, it looks like a purposeful change.
[17:11] <tseliot> indeed
[17:11] <tseliot> I won't mention anything else in the kernel then
[17:12] <mamarley> For the NVIDIA driver, somebody was complaining about it in the forum, but no-one from NVIDIA ever acknowledged it.  Later I will post a reply on that thread with the cause of the problem.  Hopefully this will save them a bit of effort.
[17:12] <tseliot> yes, that's a good idea
[17:13] <mamarley> Kernel bisecting is annoying, especially when your test box starts panicking on every other reboot.
[17:14] <tseliot> right
[17:36] <tseliot> mamarley: are you available to test the 304 driver for me?
[17:37] <tseliot> it should work, but still
[17:37] <mamarley> tseliot: I already tested it. :)
[17:38] <tseliot> mamarley: ok, that's good enough for me
[17:59] <ricotz> mamarley, nice! :)
[18:00] <tseliot> mamarley: uploaded
[18:00] <mamarley> Thanks!
[18:00] <tseliot> I'm going on holiday. I'll be back in January
[18:00] <mamarley> Have a good time!
[18:00] <tseliot> you too ;)