[00:03] <pleia2> philipballew: sure, have you stopped editing so I can give it a go?
[00:03] <philipballew> pleia2, yes
[00:03] <pleia2> k, looking now
[00:05] <pleia2> fixed, trailing whitespace at the end of some of the lines
[00:06] <philipballew> pleia2, okay. Sorry
[00:06] <pleia2> no worries, happens all the time to everyone, that's how I got so good at fixing it :)
[00:07] <philipballew> practice makes perfect.
[00:10]  * philipballew heads off for sushi
[00:10] <pleia2> enjoy
[02:30] <rww> Meeting in 30 minutes :)
[03:00] <pleia2> meeting time, who's excited?
[03:00] <nhaines> o/
[03:00] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[03:00] <darthrobot> Meeting started Mon Dec 15 03:00:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[03:00] <darthrobot> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[03:00] <pleia2> #chair rww
[03:00] <darthrobot> Current chairs: pleia2 rww
[03:00] <rww> hihi
[03:00] <pleia2> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14December14
[03:00] <darthrobot> Title: [CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14December14 - Ubuntu Wiki]
[03:00] <pleia2> things on it \o/
[03:01] <pleia2> #topic SCaLE 13x planning
[03:02] <pleia2> philipballew created a wiki page and sent an email to the list earlier asking for volunteers, wiki here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale13x
[03:02] <darthrobot> Title: [CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale13x - Ubuntu Wiki]
[03:02] <pleia2> I won't be attending this year, so someone who is might want to jump in here :)
[03:02] <nhaines> So things were going pretty well.  I had a very long phone call with Richard Gaskin and we talked about Ubucon and shared some booth ideas, and we have some ideas for helping each other out on these individual projects.
[03:03] <pleia2> do you know which day Ubucon is?
[03:03] <nhaines> I am planning on engaging with Canonical about booth sponsorship, for example I intend to get polo shirts for everyone manning the booth.
[03:03] <nhaines> Ubucon is on Friday.
[03:03] <pleia2> nice
[03:04] <nhaines> So I'm more than a little upset that Philip is asking booth volunteers to call him personally on his cell phone because I really need volunteers to commit to a booth schedule and it isn't ready yet.
[03:05] <pleia2> oops :\
[03:05] <pleia2> communication breakdown there?
[03:05] <nhaines> In addition, he's volunteered to handle the conference back but I'm pretty sure only the team contact can do it.
[03:05] <nhaines> He hasn't said anything to me at all about SCALE.
[03:05] <pleia2> yeah, I have to request the conference pack
[03:06] <nhaines> Now I *know* the conference pack is sorted because, frankly, pleia2, I just don't have to worry about anything you're in charge of.
[03:07] <nhaines> But this is the kind of general confusion that can lead to breakdowns very quickly.  Especially with the incidental supplies.
[03:07] <pleia2> well, no one has asked me to apply for one yet, so I do need to do that if we want it :)
[03:07] <rww> pleia2: Please apply for a conference pack for this year and have it sent to nhaines :P
[03:07] <pleia2> agreed, so action item #1 is getting philip synced up with nhaines on booth specifics
[03:07] <nhaines> Yeah, I want to bend the ear of a couple Canonical community team members about swag and uniforms before I figure out what we need and start putting in reimbursement fund requests.
[03:08] <nhaines> They're very, very warm to Ubucon and so I just need to have a chat, because I'll probably want to coordinate shipping.
[03:08]  * pleia2 nods
[03:08] <nhaines> Anyhow, I love and will need help, but I volunteered to maange the booth this year and I don't need premature interference.
[03:08] <pleia2> you're familiar enough with them that they probably don't need my contact magic wand for this anyway
[03:09] <pleia2> just let me know if you do end up needing me to submit a form for the pack
[03:09] <nhaines> That's what I suspect, but you'll hear from me if I'm wrong.  ;)
[03:09] <nhaines> Oh, I suspect I will, but I'll try and get info for you to copy/paste.
[03:09] <pleia2> \o/
[03:09] <nhaines> I'd have done it this week actually but I ended up on a governing board and so I've been doing lots of reading.  :P
[03:09] <pleia2> hah, congrats? :)
[03:10] <nhaines> I'm not sure yet, but I'll let you know. ;)
[03:10] <pleia2> hehe
[03:10] <pleia2> alright, any other scale things?
[03:11] <nhaines> Anyway, Phil's done an amazing job on the backend stuff in the past, but I've organized the booth for six years and Ubucon for 3 and I'd appreciate it if he'd relax and let me handle it.  It's in good hands and I know whom to go to for help when I need it.
[03:11]  * pleia2 nods
[03:12] <nhaines> I'm going to email SCALE and probably get all that churning tomorrow.
[03:12] <pleia2> great
[03:12] <nhaines> The booth was great last year but I'm going to see if we can get it even better organized.
[03:12] <pleia2> having a volunteer schedule is a good idea, I know we struggle with that often
[03:12] <nhaines> It's always been a great opportunity for new members to get experience working with the public and doing outreach, so I'm looking forward to making it even more valuable that way.
[03:13] <pleia2> no fun when someone responsible ends up chained to the booth ;)
[03:13] <rww> nhaines: if you haven't already, I think we reviewed ways to improve at a meeting after SCaLE last year
[03:13] <rww> might want to check that for further ideas
[03:13] <nhaines> Schedules will help--they've worked before--and I'll have some material prepared as far as speaking points.
[03:13] <pleia2> yay speaking points
[03:13] <nhaines> rww: thanks, I'll review that.  It's on my whiteboard now.
[03:13] <nhaines> pleia2: the phone was bad enough but now we have snappy Ubuntu Core?  It's going to be a good year for speaking points.  :)
[03:14] <pleia2> haha
[03:14] <eps> 14.04.2 LTS should be released prior to SCALE.
[03:14] <nhaines> So I'm working on all of that and the holidays are inconvenient but it'll get done on the wiki and mailing list in the next couple of weeks.
[03:14] <pleia2> I've read like 3 articles on core adn still haven't quite figured out what it is ;) might have to actually install it somewhere
[03:14] <pleia2> great
[03:15] <rww> pleia2: basically, it's Ubuntu Server with click packages :P
[03:15] <nhaines> Yeah, at OCLUG yesterday we had some confused people and some really excited people, based on their understanding of the project, haha.
[03:15] <pleia2> rww: heh
[03:15] <nhaines> So anyway, that's all I've got for SCALE.  I intend for the Ubuntu presence to be a step more impressive this year.
[03:15] <rww> seriously though. snappy is apparently descended from click :)
[03:15] <pleia2> rww: unfortunately I don't have a good enough understanding of click packages either, so I think that's where my confusion comes in :)
[03:16] <pleia2> nhaines: thanks!
[03:16] <ianorlin> what do we need to do if I want to bring a computer with a flavor to the booth?
[03:16] <rww> pleia2: click packages are basically apt hacked up until it works for cellphone applications (self-contained, etc.)
[03:16] <nhaines> ianorlin: mostly just register on the wiki.  :)  If it doesn't have a parts list, I'll add it.
[03:16] <rww> it has a parts list, from last year. might need adjusting
[03:17] <nhaines> rww: I meant a "bring a system" parts list.  I'll look at my installfest documentation.
[03:17] <pleia2> oh, and if anyone needs anything from my conference box, lmk and I'll send stuff down with a norcal person
[03:17] <nhaines> pleia2: send donuts plz thx
[03:17] <pleia2> hehe
[03:18] <pleia2> I do have the 5 port non-wireless switch, orange duct tape
[03:18] <pleia2> can look at last year's wiki for what rww brough c/o pleia2
[03:18] <nhaines> Oh yeah.  send rww plz thx
[03:18] <pleia2> hehe
[03:18] <pleia2> and elky!
[03:19] <ianorlin> ah I know the parts
[03:19] <rww> rww is busy :P
[03:19] <pleia2> rww: aww :(
[03:19]  * nhaines sabotages rww's plans.
[03:19] <ianorlin> I might end up bringing a really powerful one mostly so I can take the lighter monitor and have it look good
[03:20] <nhaines> The good news is that the booth volunteers have always been awesome.  And I think Canonical is planning to provide jose so we're going to have an incredible booth no matter what.
[03:21] <pleia2> cool
[03:21] <nhaines> Oh, if anyone else has ideas for the booth I want to hear about it!  In channel or on the ML please!
[03:21] <nhaines> Or PM or email if you're not sure, but we can work on it and then move it to the public channels.  :)
[03:21] <nhaines> Collaboration breeds participation!
[03:21] <nhaines> That's all I've got.
[03:21] <pleia2> thanks nhaines
[03:22] <pleia2> #topic Member interest survey
[03:22] <pleia2> so I was at a conference recently, and during one talk they had this amazing ideas: ask your users what they want
[03:22] <pleia2> s/ideas/idea
[03:23] <nhaines> LUDICROUS!
[03:23] <pleia2> so I got to thinking that since attendance has been somewhat low at San Francisco events lately, I should, you know, do that
[03:23] <pleia2> the Ubuntu Hours tend to draw the usual suspects (who I love! but would like to see more folks, and new folks)
[03:23] <pleia2> our release party in October didn't really pan out
[03:23] <ianorlin> yeah I can't go that far for an event really
[03:24] <pleia2> ianorlin: hah, no, not expecting people to :)
[03:24] <nhaines> ianorlin: pfft, it's only 7 hours!  6 if I'm driving.
[03:24] <pleia2> few atendees at the release party, speaker didn't work out, they ended early
[03:24] <pleia2> so I thought we might at least TRY sending out a survey to our mailing list to ask folks what they would come out, if Ubuntu Hours and Release Parties aren't really doing it
[03:25] <pleia2> ideas for survey & questions here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19cY6Z6n8g-f4KlsOhpIfwmOnyX0yaDjWdFRToq0RuyY/edit
[03:25] <darthrobot> Title: [Ubuntu California Member Survey - Google Docs]
[03:25]  * eps suspects there was a publicity problem
[03:26] <pleia2> all successful release parties had one thing in common: Jono publicized them
[03:26] <eps> It was a relatively good location, the facility had pretty much everything you might want, and there was a massive amount of free food
[03:26] <pleia2> I emailed him to ask him to do it for this one at his @ubuntu.com address, but I got an auto-reply saying he's not at Canonical anymore
[03:26] <pleia2> it was pretty sad
[03:26] <pleia2> I mean, I know he's not at canonical anymore, but a reply like that from an @ubuntu.com address was meh
[03:27] <ianorlin> and he said he was still a member
[03:27] <rww> probably the primary address on his LP account is @canonical.com
[03:27] <rww> someone should poke him about that :3
[03:27] <pleia2> yeah, hoping he fixed that, but in the meantime he didn't help us with spreading the word this time
[03:28] <nhaines> #action hack jono's blog to help with publicity for the next event.
[03:28] <darthrobot> ACTION: hack jono's blog to help with publicity for the next event.
[03:28] <pleia2> not that Jono is our only option for publicity, I just don't know of the others :D his microphone is much bigger than mine
[03:28] <rww> #undo
[03:28] <darthrobot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x8c7ec8c>
[03:28] <nhaines> Oh, I didn't know everyone could do that.
[03:28] <rww> :P
[03:28] <pleia2> hahaha
[03:28] <nhaines> TIL.
[03:28] <rww> doing publicity properly has been an issue for us forever :(
[03:28] <pleia2> rww: yeah
[03:28]  * ianorlin isn't the best at it
[03:28] <pleia2> and I think it's even harder in an area that's already so maggoty with tech events
[03:28] <rww> like, i remember it getting discussed a month or three after I first encountered Ubuntu California
[03:29] <pleia2> anyway, publicity aside, if topic/event type/etc is a problem for us, I'd like to know that too, hence the survey
[03:29] <pleia2> I've mostly been guessing about what people want based on past events, and I keep doing Ubuntu Hours because they oh-so-nicely sync up with Debian dinners, so it's a good night
[03:30] <pleia2> and not much extra effort
[03:30] <nhaines> Yeah, I'd like to see an increase in effective event promotion for the team next year.
[03:31] <pleia2> anyone else interested in poking at the survey? or think it's a poor idea?
[03:32] <ianorlin> I think it is a good idea
[03:32] <pleia2> thanks ianorlin
[03:32] <nhaines> I think the survey's a really good idea.
[03:32] <pleia2> the google doc is up and should be editable by anyone, so if anyone wants to add/adjust questions, feel free
[03:32] <nhaines> It's a very good start.
[03:33] <pleia2> we can revisit this at the next meeting to firm it up (I don't want to send it out during the holidays anyway)
[03:33] <pleia2> I don't want it to be too long, else people won't fill it out :\
[03:33] <ianorlin> link?
[03:33] <eps> We should conduct a survey to determine whether a survey is actually a good idea. ;-)
[03:33] <pleia2> ianorlin: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19cY6Z6n8g-f4KlsOhpIfwmOnyX0yaDjWdFRToq0RuyY/edit
[03:33] <darthrobot> Title: [Ubuntu California Member Survey - Google Docs]
[03:34] <pleia2> eps: done and done!
[03:34]  * eps thinks SurveyMonkey is a better platform than Google Docs for this purpose
[03:34] <pleia2> eps: this is collaboration, we haven't created the survey yet
[03:35] <pleia2> I'm not asking people to fill this in :)
[03:35] <nhaines> I was totally disappointed that there wasn't a survey to vote on the survey questions.  :)
[03:35] <pleia2> we'll use a survey tool to actually build the survey (probably google forms, because they give you pretty output into a spreadsheet)
[03:35] <pleia2> and graphs!
[03:35] <ianorlin> why all the survey inception love ?
[03:35] <pleia2> all for free
[03:35] <pleia2> ianorlin: geeks
[03:35] <pleia2> :D
[03:36] <pleia2> alright, well I'll poke people individually for their feedback on this too
[03:36] <pleia2> the last formal meeting agenda item gets into publicity ;)
[03:37] <pleia2> #topic Meetup.com group for our team
[03:37] <rww> perhaps this would be good to have done by SCaLE so we can poll people there
[03:37] <pleia2> rww: yeah, that sounds good
[03:37] <nhaines> Ooh, that might be interesting.
[03:37] <pleia2> so I wrote some pros and cons, sec
[03:37] <pleia2> Con: It's closed source
[03:37] <pleia2> Con: It costs money (we can apply for funding from Canonical or there are a few companies I can contact for sponsorship)
[03:37] <pleia2> Pro: It's massively popular and social in the bay area, when experimented for the Mountain View Ubuntu Hour a few years ago, it succeeded in bringing more people out for meetups
[03:37] <pleia2> Pro: People get notifications about events that match their interests (ie Linux, Ubuntu) and could help spread the word about our team to tech folks who use meetup
[03:37] <eps> Can we bribe people? Offer gift cards to Canonical's Ubuntu shop to two lucky participants?
[03:37] <pleia2> ^^ plz discuss
[03:38] <pleia2> eps: oh, I could give a copy or two of The Official Ubuntu Book to lucky survey participants
[03:38] <pleia2> good idea
[03:38] <nhaines> Meetup is literally Hitler and therefore we shouldn't use it.
[03:38] <pleia2> x_x
[03:38] <rww> I'm +0 if someone who's been around for a while is going to keep it up to date so it doesn't stagnate, and -1 otherwise.
[03:38] <rww> I personally do not plan on being that person :P
[03:39]  * eps has privacy concerns about Meetup.com. People who wouldn't touch Facebook with a ten-foot pole probably aren't going to be interested in Meetup.com, either.
[03:39] <nhaines> !action rww will update meetup forever.
[03:39] <darthrobot> nhaines: Error: "action" is not a valid command.
[03:39] <Eureka> nhaines: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[03:39] <pleia2> so, I wouldn't propose that this REPLACE any of our infrastructure
[03:39] <ianorlin> yeah poll at scale would be good
[03:39] <pleia2> we still use loco.ubuntu.com and private emails for RSVP, we still announce on typical channels
[03:39] <pleia2> but meetup.com would be an additional tool, some people will RSVP there (sigh) and it does get our name out on tech lists
[03:40] <pleia2> when people say they have an interest in linux, meetup will suggest us
[03:40] <nhaines> The problem with meetup, as I understand it, is that if people see an event with no RSVPs, they won't go.
[03:40] <nhaines> So it's counterproductive to not have RSVPs there.
[03:40] <eps> It shouldn't ever become a "primary" channel.
[03:40] <pleia2> nhaines: yeah, that's a good point
[03:40] <ianorlin> I don't get meetup.com
[03:41] <eps> If you want RSVPs, I'd rather use something like EventBrite for that.
[03:41] <pleia2> having fragmented RSVPs won't just be a pain for the organizer
[03:41] <ianorlin> yes it would be not good for anyone
[03:41] <pleia2> eps: now we're using closed source software without any of the meetup.com benefits,not sure what that buys us :)
[03:41] <pleia2> eventbrite isn't very useful for publicity
[03:42] <eps> *What* meetup.com benefits?
[03:42] <pleia2> it's very popular in SF, techies use it almost exclusively to find tech events
[03:42]  * ianorlin wonders if anyone tried making an open source version of meetup.com that failed
[03:42] <nhaines> Meetup.com is extraordinarily populare among people who want to find interesting events.
[03:42] <pleia2> it automatically sends notifications based on your interest, so we're more discoverable
[03:42] <eps> I see only downside. I don't care whether or not they're open source. That's a nonissue.
[03:43] <nhaines> eps: name a downside.
[03:43] <eps> You want to use a service that spams people?
[03:44] <pleia2> how does it spam?
[03:44] <pleia2> (I have a meetup account, so I don't get unsolicited emails from them)
[03:44]  * ianorlin doesn't use it so I don't know
[03:44] <eps> What do you call automatically sending notifications about things you "might" be interested in?
[03:44] <pleia2> they send me notifications when things are interesting nearby, which is nice
[03:44] <pleia2> I call that the service I signed up for
[03:45] <eps> I call that a misfeature.
[03:45] <rww> eps: depends on whether people opt-in to said notifications or not
[03:45] <nhaines> pleia2: agreed.
[03:45] <ianorlin> ok I don't have a problem if it is opt-in
[03:45] <nhaines> eps: the *point* of meetup is that it notifies you of local events.
[03:45] <ianorlin> if you don't like that point then aren't there only downsides?
[03:46] <ianorlin> for a person that thinks it is pointless
[03:46] <eps> If I have to sign up for an account, it's a lose in my book.
[03:46] <rww> then don't use it
[03:46] <nhaines> ianorlin: pretty much.  If you don't want to be notified about events, you shouldn't sign up for services that notify you for events.
[03:46] <pleia2> we're targeting the current meetup.com audience for this
[03:46] <ianorlin> then will how will one  rsvp for events ?
[03:46] <eps> rww: Hence my earlier comment about not allowing it to become primary.
[03:47] <pleia2> regular people can still sign up on loco.u.c (which requires sign up too) or email the organizer
[03:47] <nhaines> ianorlin: LoCo directory.  Which requires you to sign up for an account.
[03:47] <pleia2> eps: I specifically said it's not primary
[03:47]  * ianorlin isn't sure how many new people know about loco directory
[03:47] <pleia2> this is just to broaden our reach with a tool that is popular for tech events, for users of that tool, of which there are many and Mountain View did have success with it for their Ubuntu Hours for a time
[03:48] <ianorlin> I think there are some lugs in the LA area using it as well
[03:48] <ianorlin> which could be a potential audience
[03:48] <nhaines> It's a little out of scope, but I wonder if it's not a good idea to have someone who manages this kind of social media work.
[03:48] <rww> I think that is a good idea.
[03:49] <eps> Yes, it will kick your numbers up. It's still evil.
[03:49] <ianorlin> yeah that would make sense
[03:49] <dtrizzle> Newbie here. I personally dislike meetup because of all the emails, but I have used them to find events. So I can see both sides. There isn't much hurt in giving it a try and seeing what happens. I doubt meetup requires a long-term commitment.
[03:49] <nhaines> dtrizzle: that is also why I hate meetup--that plus I can't find anything on the website.  But I know some event organizers and how helpful it is to them, and others who use it to find events swear by it.
[03:49] <pleia2> nhaines: your RSVP point is a good one, I thought it would just be a pain for the organizer to manage 2 RSVP lists, but having 5 attendees sign up on loco.u.c and 5 on meetup doesn't show the total of 10 attendees (decent turnout!) and may turn some people off
[03:50] <pleia2> dtrizzle: welcome :)
[03:50] <nhaines> pleia2: I'm commonly begged to RSVP via meetup because it helps the event.  So...  :)
[03:50] <ianorlin> except if somone signs up for meetup to rsvp to an event because they will not know of loco directory most likely and then gets lots of email
[03:50] <pleia2> ianorlin: how would they find the event on meetup if they aren't on meetup?
[03:50] <nhaines> Ninjas.
[03:50] <ianorlin> they can search website
[03:51] <ianorlin> without account
[03:51] <pleia2> ianorlin: why would they do that?
[03:51]  * ianorlin does it but I don't know how most other think
[03:52] <pleia2> ianorlin: hm, so how do you RSVP for events you find?
[03:52] <ianorlin> I go to ones that don't require it
[03:52] <pleia2> ah
[03:52] <DonkeyHotei> whoa, meeting still active
[03:53] <pleia2> DonkeyHotei: didn't you hear? we had an agenda this week ;)
[03:54] <pleia2> so, the truth is, I don't like meetup either
[03:55] <dtrizzle> pleia2: thanks for the welcome. I've gone to a handful of dvlug events organized by grantbow.
[03:55] <pleia2> but we do need to work on publicity for our events, and it's blinding me with how obvious using it is, at least in the bay area
[03:55] <dtrizzle> so I have an idea.
[03:55] <pleia2> dtrizzle: please
[03:56] <dtrizzle> Have you considered reaching out to very target groups like community college students studying unix/linux?
[03:56] <pleia2> yeah, we have a great relationship with sfsu
[03:56] <pleia2> I routinely speak at ITT Tech
[03:56] <dtrizzle> I took a linux class a year or so ago and had no idea about this group or dvlug.
[03:56] <pleia2> we don't know many students or professors, so that's pretty much been our reach so far
[03:57] <dtrizzle> i wonder if we couldn't reach out to some/all of the unix classes since those people have a proven interest of some sort.
[03:57] <nhaines> That's definitely something that can be worked on.  But Ubuntu California is specifically an advocacy group.
[03:57] <nhaines> We're here to support or host events, not to be a user's group.  So that's a little tricky to manage.  :)
[03:57] <nhaines> I've been working with OCLUG to improve their outreach over the year, and it's had good results so far.
[03:58] <pleia2> dtrizzle: think you could help us with that? I didn't even go to college, so I really wouldn't even know where to begin :)
[03:58] <dtrizzle> I could - and I would be interested in helping.
[03:58] <pleia2> yay :D
[03:59] <nhaines> dtrizzle: thank you very much.  :)
[03:59] <pleia2> dtrizzle: are you on the mailing list?
[03:59] <dtrizzle> nhaines: I understand. I suppose I figured those people might in interested in getting involved with the events.
[03:59] <pleia2><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:59] <dtrizzle> pleia2: nope. I've just be a lurker. :-)
[03:59] <dtrizzle> been*
[03:59] <nhaines> dtrizzle: the list is pretty low volume, so feel free to join.  :)
[04:00] <pleia2> dtrizzle: ok, well if you're ok with it, I'm thinking discussing how to do outreach for colleges might be a good topic of discussion for the list
[04:00] <pleia2> the clicky to join link: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
[04:00] <darthrobot> Title: [Ubuntu-us-ca Info Page]
[04:00] <dtrizzle> pleia2: thanks - you totally read my mind.
[04:01] <DonkeyHotei> you can't outreach to community colleges without relationships with professors at them
[04:01] <pleia2> DonkeyHotei: if that's the case, then we need to reach out to folks with those contacts :) maybe some are on our mailing list already (I suspect so)
[04:01] <nhaines> On the other hand, every professor I've ever talked to has been interested in promoting these things.
[04:02] <dtrizzle> I have some relationships with CS professors at DVC in Pleasant Hill.
[04:02] <nhaines> So establishing a relationship is often pretty simple.
[04:02] <pleia2> dtrizzle: great!
[04:03] <DonkeyHotei> i would expect low interest among CCSF faculty, since cisco pays for their equipment
[04:03]  * pleia2 reads up to see how we got on this tanget
[04:03] <pleia2> right, so I knew the meetup thing would raise hackles, so I figured I'd just introduce it during this meeting, no decisions yet
[04:04] <pleia2> maybe after the new year we can discuss meetup + other publicity options too
[04:04] <ianorlin> yeah I think putting it on an agenda would be nice
[04:04] <pleia2> if we can get our numbers up without using it, great, but having poorly attended events is really demotivating
[04:05] <nhaines> Yeah.  It's a lot of wasted effort in some cases.
[04:05]  * pleia2 nods
[04:06] <pleia2> #topic Any other business
[04:06] <DonkeyHotei> i seem to remember at least three people saying in-channel that the release party was a schedule conflict for them
[04:06] <pleia2> thanks for sticking around so long everyone, I know it was a long meeting :)
[04:06] <nhaines> Did I miss the leadership discussion?
[04:06] <elky> that's a shame about meetup... you're not going to get outsiders if you stick to insider-preferred things
[04:06] <rww> pleia2: you missed a topic :P
[04:06] <pleia2> oops!
[04:06] <pleia2> sorry
[04:07] <pleia2> #topic Leadership election discussion
[04:07] <pleia2> Nomination page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Leadership/2014
[04:07] <darthrobot> Title: [CaliforniaTeam/Leadership/2014 - Ubuntu Wiki]
[04:07] <pleia2> List post with more details: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2014-December/002540.html
[04:07] <darthrobot> Title: [[Ubuntu-US-CA] Call for Ubuntu California LoCo Team leadershipnominations]
[04:07] <rww> So... we have a leadership election, as people who read the ML know. And the current deadline for nominations is in 4 days, and we have no nominations.
[04:07] <pleia2> anarchy!
[04:07] <rww> 1) Does anyone have any questions about leadership election, 2) I would like some nominations (self or otherwise) now, kthx :P
[04:07] <pleia2> but seriously :\
[04:08] <DonkeyHotei> [Sun 2014-11-16 07:09:28 PM PST]  <rww> jyo did it last year, but I'm not running this year and am fine with doing it instead. Whatever works.
[04:08] <DonkeyHotei> [Sun 2014-11-16 07:09:49 PM PST]  <rww> Anyone have any election-related comments?
[04:08] <DonkeyHotei> [Sun 2014-11-16 07:10:06 PM PST]  <DonkeyHotei> great because jyo is hereby nominated
[04:08] <pleia2> DonkeyHotei: he didn't accept the nomination
[04:08] <DonkeyHotei> bah
[04:08] <rww> I haven't seen him, and that wasn't even during the nomination period :P
[04:08] <nhaines> I have a question!  What happens if there aren't three nominations?
[04:08] <pleia2> he just bought a house, etc etc busy busy :)
[04:09] <rww> nhaines: the nomination period gets extended, is the current plan. I want to avoid that.
[04:09] <rww> DonkeyHotei: since that one fell through, you get to make another nomination :P
[04:09] <rww> pleia2: ah, was wondering what he was up to
[04:11] <rww> seriously though, it's not that hard to be all "I think X would be a good leader, I'ma tell rww I nominate him"
[04:11] <rww> erm, or her
[04:11] <rww> so if anybody could do that that would be nice :P
[04:11] <DonkeyHotei> i think you'll find that the best leaders will generally be overcommitted already
[04:12] <elky> we don't need "the best"
[04:12] <DonkeyHotei> relatively speaking
[04:12] <rww> you don't need to be especially skilled at leadership to make decisions when there's a lack of consensus
[04:12] <ianorlin> I think elky would be a good leader but don't know if she has the time
[04:12] <rww> hell, I managed to survive a year of it and I'm not good at it
[04:12] <pleia2> rww: elky would be a good leader, nominate him^Wher :P
[04:13] <rww> as elections secretary (I just invented that role, go me), I'm refraining from nominating people
[04:13] <pleia2> elky: wanna be a leader?
[04:13] <rww> which sucks, because otherwise I'd do what I did to the IRC Council elections and nominate half a dozen people
[04:13] <elky> pleia2: only if someone else is also nominated
[04:13] <pleia2> sweet, progress!
[04:13] <rww> elky: now nominate someone :3
[04:14] <ianorlin> I think nhaines would be a good leader as well
[04:14] <ianorlin> I nominate nhaines
[04:14] <DonkeyHotei> elky: ianorlin nominated you, wanna return the favor?
[04:14] <nhaines> I'll accept the nomination, but only if I'm not the only one nominated.
[04:14] <rww> alrighty, I think that means elky and nhaines just accepted nominations
[04:14] <pleia2> w00t
[04:14] <rww> I want at least two more, preferably :P
[04:14] <elky> DonkeyHotei: i don't know anyone here well enough
[04:14] <rww> (number of positions + 1)
[04:16] <pleia2> alright, well 2 nominations is something
[04:16] <pleia2> I'll work on getting more who accept in the next 4 days, everyone else should too ;)
[04:16] <DonkeyHotei> elky: fair enough, i just thought if ianorlin knew you well enough, you'd know him well enough
[04:16] <pleia2> elky is pretty well known in the Ubuntu community :)
[04:16] <rww> nhaines: what's your county?
[04:16] <pleia2> she's been around maybe longer than me
[04:17] <rww> (why do we have that column there anyway? to get a feel for geographic layout of nominees?)
[04:17] <pleia2> rww: yeah, so people are informed when voting
[04:17]  * ianorlin lives really close to nhaines
[04:17] <DonkeyHotei> we have a big state
[04:17] <nhaines> rww: Orange County.
[04:17] <pleia2> alright, thank you elky and nhaines :)
[04:18] <rww> ta
[04:18] <pleia2> and rww for the cat herding here
[04:18] <rww> I'll let the mailing list know after the meeting, and have updated the wiki
[04:18] <pleia2> great
[04:18] <nhaines> pleia2: you're welcome.  :)
[04:19] <pleia2> alright, are there any other agenda items I'm missing? :D
[04:19] <pleia2> I need a weekend (aww, man)
[04:19] <nhaines> 5. Add your item here
[04:19] <pleia2> #topic Any other business
[04:19] <pleia2> for real this time
[04:19] <rww> Congrats to nhaines for getting on the LoCo Council, for anyone who missed the earlier reference
[04:19] <nhaines> rww: thank you!
[04:19] <rww> I for one welcome our new overlord.
[04:19] <pleia2> yes, congrats nhaines!
[04:20] <nhaines> I promise hegemony will be swift and mostly painless.
[04:20] <pleia2> haha
[04:20] <rww> so let's see, we got you on LC, and you're nominated for IRCC and council here...
[04:20] <rww> where else can we nominate you >:D
[04:21] <nhaines> lol
[04:21] <nhaines> I almost forgot about the IRCC thing!
[04:21] <pleia2> probably poor form to make an NA joke
[04:21] <pleia2> ;)
[04:21] <DonkeyHotei> well,  barbara boxer is retiring, j/k
[04:21] <pleia2> hah!
[04:21] <rww> lol
[04:22] <pleia2> alright, let's wrap this up then
[04:22] <pleia2> thanks again everyone!
[04:22] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[04:22] <darthrobot> Meeting ended Mon Dec 15 04:22:45 2014 UTC.
[04:22] <darthrobot> Minutes:        http://ihas.5cat.com/~darthrobot/ubuntu-us-ca/2014/ubuntu-us-ca.2014-12-15-03.00.moin.txt
[04:22]  * pleia2 goes to dinnerz
[04:23] <nhaines> Yay!
[04:23] <nhaines> thanks pleia2 and rww for chairing the meeting.  :)
[04:27] <ianorlin> yay can get dinner now
[04:28] <nhaines> Yeah, now I'll have to think about eating.
[05:28] <nhaines> ianorlin: I wanted to chat with you a bit yesterday after the meeting.  Sorry it didn't happen!  :)
[05:30] <DonkeyHotei> better late than never
[05:31] <ianorlin> ah there is always pm
[05:31] <nhaines> True!
[18:30] <philipballew> nhaines, You removed my work off the wiki
[18:33] <pleia2> philipballew: see meeting logs from last night :) nhaines is running the booth this year and is still trying to organize things
[18:33] <pleia2> philipballew: I think you jumped the gun a bit by creating the wiki, so you'll want to sync up with him
[18:33] <philipballew> I saw them, but yeah, lets figure that out.
[18:34] <philipballew> I was unaware he was running it this year, but the more help this loco has the better for sure.
[18:35] <philipballew>  since you cant make it pleia2 and all... :(
[18:39] <philipballew> well nhaine,s hmu when you're down to work on some things.
[18:39] <philipballew> *'
[18:41] <philipballew> If you need my number again it's<PHONE_NUMBER>
[18:55] <bkerensa> philipballew: you could help Mozilla with its booth :) we can put you in a hotel and feed you :P
[18:57] <philipballew> bkerensa, Does the hotel come stocked with firefox voodo donuts?
[18:58] <bkerensa> no
[18:58] <philipballew> So steamed!
[19:00] <philipballew> pleia2, I volunteered to get the conf pack already as I have the past two years.
[19:01] <philipballew> I said it here on irc a few weeks back
[19:01] <pleia2> philipballew: nhaines is trying to coordinate shipping of that with other goodies from Canonical, so you'll want to hold off
[19:02] <pleia2> also, the team contact has to apply for it (that's me right now)
[19:02] <philipballew> I have always personally called London and they ship it right over.
[19:03] <pleia2> I didn't know there was a number to call
[19:03] <pleia2> anyway, you really want to coordinate this all with nhaines, I am not handling scale stuff :)
[19:04] <philipballew> you seem to have a lot on your plate these days pleia2
[19:04] <pleia2> philipballew: hah, yeah, which is why I don't want this too
[19:04] <pleia2> (also, I won't be there)
[19:04] <philipballew> pleia2, I hope you can take a break soon :)
[19:04] <pleia2> I will be in Oman, which should be fun :)
[19:05] <pleia2> I took a vacation last month, it was lovely
[19:05] <pleia2> got to fly in a cessna!
[19:05] <philipballew> What brings you to Oman?
[19:05] <pleia2> foss oman conference
[19:06] <philipballew> pleia2, Always on the move
[19:06] <pleia2> indeed :)
[19:06] <philipballew> How many miles did you get this year?
[19:07] <pleia2> I'm going to St Louis next week, so I'll end up with just over 100k
[19:07] <pleia2> doubtful I'll ever reach that again, this year was too busy
[19:07]  * pleia2 tired
[19:08] <ianorlin> I also think I can bring some stuff but my power strips only have 5 plugs
[19:08] <akk> That is a crazy amount of traveling.
[19:08] <philipballew> oh nice. I am going to Panama this next week. I had some ff miles to cash in.
[19:08] <philipballew> Then taking a bus through central america
[19:08] <pleia2> akk: yeah :\
[19:08] <pleia2> philipballew: haha, nice, have fun :)
[19:08] <philipballew> pleia2, thanks!
[19:08] <ianorlin> I am thinking I could bring a desktop which would have 9 usb ports
[19:09] <philipballew> When it comes to usb ports, more is always better!
[19:09] <ianorlin> 5 of which a 3.0
[19:10] <philipballew> I think my new laptop has 3.0
[19:10] <ianorlin> although most of the ethernet cords I have are short
[19:10] <philipballew> but I am really not that concerned
[19:10] <ianorlin> well 3.0 can pull more power if we wanted to hook up a phone with ubuntu touch to it and keep it charged
[19:10] <ianorlin> if it got low
[19:11] <ianorlin> I don't think we need the transfer
[19:11] <akk> Can a USB 3 port charge as fast as a charger plugged into AC?
[19:11] <philipballew> Why not just use a wall outlet
[19:11] <philipballew> ?
[19:12] <philipballew> akk, beat me to it
[19:13] <ianorlin> yeah I think I can take two 5 plugs at least
[19:13] <ianorlin> of power strips
[19:13] <ianorlin> the booth is too loud for me to talk well so I think I am better at bringing stuff
[19:14] <philipballew> Just yell really loud ianorlin
[19:15] <ianorlin> that doesn't help if I have trouble thinking of intellgent things to say in loud environments
[19:16] <philipballew> ianorlin, are you good at communicating to large groups of people without a prompt?
[19:16] <ianorlin> why want to see if I can give a talk at ubucon?
[19:16] <ianorlin> I am ok with public as long as not too loud
[19:17] <philipballew> Just stand in the hall and give your talk
[19:18] <philipballew> gorilla presentation


[12:53] <qwebirc916920> what I mean is that it just shows the buttons that provide you access to the various options in the app top panel


[12:04] <sebest> it's writtend in C, and has a DBUS api , + C/C++/C# bindings
[12:04] <sebest> and integrates in glib/qt mainloop
[12:05] <Pygi> Like the last 4 API's/frameworks I heard about were using DBUS :)
[12:05] <Pygi> DBUS became popular :P
[12:05] <sebest> we'll provide an alternative IPC soon as dbus is not working on windows AFAIK
[12:06] <Pygi> heh :P
[12:07] <sebest> but it's already working on other unixes (*BSD, macOsX)
[12:07] <Pygi> ah, well, in most cases windows has to be special :-/
[12:08] <sebest> porting using cygwin is not really hard, but with mingw it's a lot more work...
[12:08] <Pygi> yup, I know :-/
[01:46] <Psi-Jack> Any Cyrus-IMAPD guys around? :)
[01:48] <Pygi> no, sorry :-/
[03:53] <setuid> ah, there IS a channel for this ;)
[05:22] <setuid> What is "kickseed", and why does it hard-lock my machine during install time?
[09:13] <neuralis> fabbione: ATM, webmin isn't in dapper. if this won't change, we should look at potentially also removing webmin-ldap-netgroups, webmin-ldap-user-simple, webmin-sbs and webmin-slbackup.
[09:13] <neuralis> fabbione: it probably doesn't make sense to have them in the archive without webmin itself.
[09:16] <infinity> Of course, it would be nice if someone wrote some GUI admin tools that didn't suck, so people can stop complaining about how "Linux servers are too hard for my blind, senile grandmother to have a 150K/year job in IT!"
[09:17] <infinity>  * NOTE: The above quote may be hyperbole.
[09:34] <neuralis> infinity: i'm with you 100%.
[09:55] <fabbione> neuralis: hehe ok
[09:55] <fabbione> neuralis: ipvsadm and keepalived should be in main now
[09:55] <fabbione> i didn't check yet
[11:11] <Pygi> fabbione: ping
[11:11] <fabbione> pong
[11:12] <Pygi> I'm running -server kernel
[11:12] <Pygi> everything is peacfull for now :)
[11:14] <Pygi> o chara one :P
[11:15] <MarioMeyer> heya
[11:16] <spike> 'morning
[11:17] <Psi-Jack> Grrr.
[11:17] <Psi-Jack> Anyone here using postfix with smtp-auth?
[11:17] <Pygi> mornin' spike
[11:17] <MarioMeyer> me
[11:18] <Psi-Jack> I got saslauthd going, but postfix can't connect to saslauthd. I don't know why.
[11:18] <MarioMeyer> i just followed the how-to forge .. went smoothly
[11:19] <Psi-Jack> You using it with saslauthd?
[11:20] <MarioMeyer> yep
[11:20] <Psi-Jack> Aha..
[11:21] <Psi-Jack> postfix is chrooted to /var/spool/postfix, isn't it?
[11:21] <MarioMeyer> depends on your config
[11:21] <MarioMeyer> http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_ubuntu_5.10_p4
[11:21] <MarioMeyer> ;)
[11:22] <MarioMeyer> gotta reboot
[11:26] <Psi-Jack> There we go.
[11:26] <Psi-Jack> It was chrooted.
[11:31] <Pygi> psi: works now?
[11:32] <Psi-Jack> Yep
[11:32] <Psi-Jack> I had to change saslauthd's mux dir. heh
[11:32] <Pygi> k, great :)
[11:32] <Psi-Jack> Thankfully, ONLY postfix needs saslauthd on this system.
[11:36] <Psi-Jack> And now...
[11:37] <Psi-Jack> To see how exactly postfix does it's sasl-auth dn for ldap. LOL
[11:38] <Psi-Jack> Holy sheeit.
[11:38] <Psi-Jack> Hehe.
[11:39] <Psi-Jack> slapd's log scrolled so fast doing ldap stuff that postfix also uses, so I couldn't even see the actual smtp-auth's sasl bind. LOL
[11:40] <fabbione> Pygi: nice thanks
[11:40] <Psi-Jack> There a fast way to get to the EOF in vim?
[11:43] <Pygi> fabbione: yw
[11:43] <Psi-Jack> Ahh, good, it's working just like cyrus-imapd. Mapping it to use uid=username@domainname instead of uid=username,cn=domainname
[11:44] <Pygi> fabbione: I'll *start* playing with that puting /etc under bzr control
[11:44] <fabbione> Pygi: that won't happen
[11:44] <Pygi> fabbione: huh, new plans?
[11:44] <fabbione> it has been deferred to dapper+1
[11:44] <Pygi> ah,ok
[11:44] <fabbione> simply because Feature Freeze is in 2 days
[11:44] <Pygi> anything else that needs attendance?
[11:44] <fabbione> and there was not enough man power to do it
[11:44] <Pygi> ah, understood
[11:45] <fabbione> Pygi: no, i am happy if you keep testing installs on a regular base and kernels
[11:45] <fabbione> bbl
[11:45] <Pygi> k, then maybe I'll be able to do some real coding around for dapper +1
[11:45] <Pygi> k, bon apetit
[11:45] <fabbione> thanks
[11:46] <Psi-Jack> Excelent. :)
[11:46] <Psi-Jack> You know.
[11:46] <JulienH> Hi all
[11:47] <Psi-Jack> It's a pain in the a** to setup postfix and cyrus-imapd alone, but to toss in ldap on the blend is even more painful.
[11:47] <JulienH> Will the webmin package (or anything like that) be moved from universe to main ? I'm asking because of the security support issue.
[11:48] <Psi-Jack> Heh. I've been wondering. Things in main get the security updates, but what about things in universe?
[11:48] <JulienH> In uni
[11:48] <JulienH> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components : "but it comes with no guarantee of security fixes and support"
[11:49] <Psi-Jack> Oh.. Goodie.
[11:49] <Psi-Jack> I noticed, cyrus-imapd got moved to universe.
[11:49] <Psi-Jack> Then again. cyrus-imapd itself, is pretty damn secure.
[11:50] <Psi-Jack> Once I get /all/ of my mailserver stuff setup, everything internally will be TLS encrypted.
[11:51] <Pygi> to my knowledge webmin doesn't exist in dapper
[11:51] <JulienH> The fact that a package is considered secure or well coded doesn't resolve the security fixes support issue...
[11:51] <Psi-Jack> Well, lets see..
[11:52] <Psi-Jack> apt-cache search webmin on a dapper system.. Results in VERY few matches.
[11:52] <JulienH> Pygi:  It is in Dapper -> http://tinyurl.com/mcnng
[11:52] <Psi-Jack> JulienH: I see.. 4
[11:53] <Psi-Jack> And they're all just modules. Not even the actual webmin main part.
[11:53] <JulienH> Psi-Jack: oh man, sorry, I've badly looked... :/
[11:54] <Pygi> JulienH: hehe, np :)
[11:54] <Psi-Jack> I only really know this because I moved one of my servers to use dapper.
[11:54] <Psi-Jack> Because cyrus-imapd 2.2.x was only in Dapper.
[11:55] <Psi-Jack> Since that server literally /only/ does cyrus-imapd, with it's imapd, pop3d, lmtpd, sieve, etc.. I figured it was "sane" enough.
[11:55] <JulienH> But... why was webmin removed from Dapper ? It's a very useful software and is used on some prod servers...
[11:55] <Psi-Jack> On yeah, and it's nntpd. :)
[11:55] <Pygi> Psi-Jack: are you subscribed to -server mailing list?
[11:55] <Psi-Jack> I, personally, haven't seen much usefulness in webmin.
[11:55] <Psi-Jack> Pygi: Not yet.,
[11:56] <Psi-Jack> I will be in a few mins. :)
[11:57] <Psi-Jack> Hmm
[11:57] <Psi-Jack> Where is it?
[11:57] <Pygi> Psi-Jack: it is hidden, yes I know :)
[11:57] <Psi-Jack> heh
[11:57] <JulienH> I can see a dapper-changes list, but not server list.... https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/
[11:57] <Pygi> second psi jack
[11:58] <Psi-Jack> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server/ ?
[11:58] <Pygi> yes, that one :)
[11:58] <Psi-Jack> Just had to manually type it in.
[11:59] <JulienH> Thanks, I'm subscribing now...
[11:59] <Pygi> psi-jack: are you ready to do a little testing for us? :)
[11:59] <Psi-Jack> Pygi: What kind?
[11:59] <Pygi> Psi-Jack: the ubuntu repositories contain a -server kernels... *dapper repositories*
[11:59] <Psi-Jack> Ohh, really? hardened kernels?
[12:00] <Pygi> run them and let people do whatever they do on that servers, report stability, issues, etc :)
[12:00] <Pygi> we need all kind of reports we can get
[12:00] <Psi-Jack> That a hardened kernel? :)
[12:00] <Pygi> yes, that's a server-tuned kernel
[12:01] <Psi-Jack> What's it got? PaX, GRsecure, SElinux?
[12:01] <Pygi> not sure about that, sorry :-/
[12:02] <Psi-Jack> That makes a difference. :)
[12:02] <Pygi> I just upgraded the kernel yesterday, and it seems stable
[12:02] <Psi-Jack> If using a PaX+GRsecure+SElinux kernel, one must know, so that can properly facilitate which tools are required to actually setup the hardening.
[12:03] <Pygi> you'll have to ask fabbione that once he's here...
[12:03] <Psi-Jack> fabbione: What about the twinkie?
[12:03] <Pygi> psi: fabbione's eating :P
[12:03] <Psi-Jack> Ironic that I mentioned twinkie, then, huh?
[12:04] <Psi-Jack> :)
[12:04] <Psi-Jack> What's -server's List-Id?
[12:04] <JulienH> How the package selection for Dapper is done ?
[12:04] <Psi-Jack> JulienH: Umm. The same ways as always?
[12:04] <Pygi> JulienH: what do you mean?
[12:05] <Psi-Jack> I sooo need to hurry up and switch to syslog-ng instead of syslog/klogd
[12:05] <Pygi> ah, well :)
[12:05] <Psi-Jack> Anyone her using syslog-ng?
[12:06] <Psi-Jack> Just wondering if it's pre-canned just like syslog/klogd are, or if it has a totally different setup.
[12:06] <Pygi> JulienH: as always, only main repository is supported for the amount of time stated
[12:06] <JulienH> Pygi: for example, who decides if the webmin package will be or not in Dapper
[12:06] <Pygi> the Ubuntu Developers team/Technical board
[12:07] <fabbione> Psi-Jack: twinkie?
[12:07] <Pygi> also, only server packages will be supported on -server
[12:07] <Pygi> you can't install ubuntu-desktop and want it to be supported same as -server
[12:07] <Psi-Jack> fabbione: Hehe. Ever seen Ghost Busters?
[12:07] <JulienH> Pygi: of course, that makes sense :)
[12:08] <Pygi> JulienH: well, just wanted to make it clear :)
[12:08] <fabbione> Psi-Jack: yeah.. i did.. in italian.. twinkies do tell me much.. sorry :/
[12:08] <Psi-Jack> Hehe
[12:09] <JulienH> Pygi: well, if webmin isn't in Dapper, is there any equivalent package (web-based server administration tool) in ?
[12:09] <Psi-Jack> fabbione: I was wondering, since Pygi brought it up. What's with the -server kernels? What's it got in it? PaX, GRsecure, SElinux?
[12:09] <Pygi> JulienH: currently? no...there is no officialy supported web admin tool
[12:09] <fabbione> selinux is there, can be enabled with a boot option
[12:09] <Pygi> but a few might emerge in universe
[12:09] <Psi-Jack> fabbione: Is that the only one?
[12:09] <fabbione> PaX and GR no
[12:09] <Psi-Jack> Hmm.
[12:10] <Psi-Jack> Odd..
[12:10] <fabbione> Psi-Jack: yes, it's the only one in mainline
[12:10] <Psi-Jack> I would have gone with PaX+GRsecure before going just SElinux..
[12:10] <fabbione> and we don't plan to add them at all. Previous reviews of the code made as run away yelling and screaming
[12:10] <fabbione> Psi-Jack: it's not a problem of learning curve here
[12:10] <fabbione> it's a problem of supporting the solutions
[12:11] <Psi-Jack> Heh.
[12:11] <fabbione> it's very difficult to support PaX and GRsecure in time
[12:11] <Psi-Jack> Guess I won't be testing -server kernels afterall. ;)
[12:12] <Pygi> fabbione: do we already have a list of tasks what needs to be acomplished for dapper+1 or is it too early?
[12:12] <fabbione> Pygi: usually that list is discussed the week after release
[12:12] <JulienH> Pygi: 'cause it would be great to see a package like webmin. In this idea: "insert the Dapper CD, install, reboot and administrate your server smoothly and remotely !"
[12:12] <fabbione> when we will be writing specs and so on
[12:13] <fabbione> but if you have ideas, post them ,discuss them.. etc.
[12:13] <Pygi> JulienH: that was the point of Ubuntu-instant-server project, but it failed :-/
[12:13] <fabbione> you can always do that
[12:13] <fabbione> but there is no guarantee that they will be implemented by us
[12:13] <fabbione> most of the time who suggest needs to do ;)
[12:13] <Pygi> fabbione: kk, that would be great... I'd also like to get more involved into coding in dapper+1
[12:13] <Pygi> this release was ... huh.. :-/
[12:13] <JulienH> Pygi: ah ? are there any historics from this project ?
[12:14] <Pygi> JulienH: I am afraid that there is not, as matt erased all traces on wiki I think...
[12:14] <Pygi> You can check out the wiki to find it
[12:14] <Pygi> Ebox seems like a nice solution at first view (google it)
[12:15] <Pygi> fabbione: if there will be some tasks that needs to be acomplished in dapper+1 once we start doing it, I'll be more then glad to help out in coding/development
[12:16] <fabbione> Pygi: that would be lovely
[12:17] <Pygi> I'll just need to learn bzr, as I never worked with that, and you use it as rcs, but it shouldn't be too hard
[12:19] <JulienH> Pygi: ok, I'll try to contact matt in to see if the project can be restarted...
[12:19] <Pygi> JulienH: have you found the project?
[12:20] <JulienH> Pygi: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-instserv-dev
[12:21] <JulienH> Pygi: but nothing in wiki
[12:21] <Pygi> ah, yes, I was kicked out of that team :P Yup, he erased wiki...
[12:32] <Pygi> to me one thing is not clear in launchpad *altought a lot of things are not clear* and that is how a team owner can be kicked :-/
[12:33] <Pygi> nevertheless, I gotta go
[12:33] <Pygi> see you later
[12:33] <JulienH> Pygi: cya
[12:40] <spike> fabbione: has been rsbac evaluated along with grsec?
[12:40] <fabbione> spike: can't remember...
[12:40] <spike> fabbione: well, they do strive to keep code stable and easy to maintain
[12:41] <spike> fabbione: I had some discussion with a couple of devs back when we met and they'd love to cooperate to see it included in ubuntu.
[12:41] <fabbione> spike: it's dapper+1 business now
[12:41] <spike> sure
[01:35] <Psi-Jack> Okay.
[01:35] <Psi-Jack> How between mysql 4.1 and 5.0, I upgraded to 5.0 on one system, but it's still using 4.1, how do I switch it? hehe
[01:41] <Psi-Jack> Err. okay. Nevermind.
[01:42] <Psi-Jack> It seemed to have upgraded it, from what I can tell, .... Seemlessly..
[02:49] <allee> In order to promote -server images, I can only suggest to add a better description.
[02:50] <allee> current desc only contains technical stuff.  No info why one can/should use -server image. Like
[02:51] <allee> Builtin features of the -server image are: ??, ??   It does not support: audio, ??? ...
[03:09] <YogSothoth> Hi
[03:09] <YogSothoth> Should I follow Filesystem Hierarchy Standard about installing apps in /opt and their configuration files in /etc/opt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard And what about /srv? Should I move all my /var/www to /srv?
[03:43] <asw> fabbione: ping
[03:44] <fabbione> pong
[03:44] <asw> We spoke at UBZ.   It looks like we'll be buying several racks of server clusters.
[03:44] <asw> I'd like to run Ubuntu server. :)
[03:45] <asw> Are there ISO's of dapper-based ubuntu server?
[03:45] <fabbione> hey Alexander
[03:45] <fabbione> yes i remember
[03:45] <fabbione> yup..
[03:45] <asw> I realize it's not released yet...) but I'd like to start qualifying hardware.
[03:45] <fabbione> let me dig
[03:45] <asw> we plan to buy a 1.5 terrabyte of ram cluster this year. :)
[03:45] <fabbione> neat :)
[03:46] <asw> people in the lab have seen me using Ubuntu and it seems it's popping up on all osrts of desktops.
[03:46] <fabbione> eeheh
[03:46] <fabbione> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/
[03:46] <fabbione> they are in a dir or subdir around there
[03:47] <fabbione> i would love to give you the full url but i have bw issues here
[03:47] <asw> thank you very much.  These are kernel 2.6.15 based?
[03:47] <fabbione> yes
[03:47] <fabbione> they are dapper
[03:47] <asw> right.
[03:47] <fabbione> note one important thing
[03:47] <fabbione> we do have a specific -server kernel
[03:47] <fabbione> but it's not installed automatically yet
[03:47] <fabbione> it's on the CD tho
[03:47] <fabbione> or should be...
[03:48] <asw> Our servers are dual opteron amd64 with 3ware-9550sx controllers.
[03:48] <maswan> asw: we have one of those, memtest is essential
[03:48] <maswan> asw: 1.5TB ram cluster that is
[03:48] <asw> maswan - very cool.  I'm at harvard medical school.  Where are you?
[03:48] <maswan> asw: Oh, what kind of performance do you see on those controllers?
[03:48] <asw> Well... we are just getting them today.
[03:48] <maswan> asw: HPC2N, Ume University, Sweden
[03:48] <maswan> ah, you haven't done benchmarking on them yet?
[03:49] <maswan> We're getting one to test any day now
[03:49] <fabbione> 1.5T.. how many machines is that? :)
[03:49] <maswan> fabbione: in our case, 190 8-gig nodes
[03:49] <asw> Currently we still have a smaller cluster.  but i'm specing the 96 node x 16gb cluster now.
[03:49] <fabbione> ehhe
[03:50] <maswan> we're going to upgrade from a rather old debian-amd64 sid snapshot to breezy any month now. :)
[03:50] <asw> the cool thing about 96 by 16 is that you can get full gige from any node to any node just by using four 48port switches and the fact that each node has two gige ports.
[03:50] <JulienH> The link of U.S. (Devel) : http://tinyurl.com/cllfu is broken...
[03:50] <maswan> well, we have myrinet on this cluster anyway
[03:51] <maswan> the gige part is less important. :)
[03:51] <maswan> what kind of usage are you getting the cluster for?
[03:51] <fabbione> JulienH: it's problably the Datacenter that is dead slow
[03:52] <fabbione> yeah
[03:52] <asw> http://www.nature.com/msb/journal/v1/n1/full/msb4100040.html
[03:52] <fabbione> they are reworking some firewalls and bw stuff
[03:53] <JulienH> fabbione: you're probably right, it works now :)
[03:53] <fabbione> JulienH: people in here that knows me a bit more will confirm that i am *cough*ALWAYS*cough* right :)
[03:54] <fabbione> asw: so when do you plan the deployment of such beast?
[03:54] <fabbione> and most important thing.. can i get access with a distcc setup? :P
[03:55] <JulienH> fabbione: don't be so modest :P
[03:55] <asw> we hope to get the first rack in may/june
[03:55] <asw> we are getting test nodes today.
[03:55] <fabbione> nice
[03:55] <fabbione> asw: what software do you plan to run on top?
[03:55] <fabbione> s/software/scheduler
[03:55] <asw> basically our application could use 5 terrabytes of RAM if it was availabe.  Just a big hash table.
[03:56] <asw> So next year I hope that 4gb SDRAM is as cheap as 2gb x 2 and we can get a 3 terrabyte cluster. ;)
[03:56] <maswan> :)
[03:56] <fabbione> next year your app will be able to use 50GB
[03:56] <fabbione> 50T
[03:56] <asw> laughing. true.
[03:57] <fabbione> asw: what do you do with all that "old" ram? :)
[03:57] <asw> it's been a crazy couple of months since UBZ
[03:57] <asw> no no. I'm talking about buying a new 3terrabyte cluster not throwing away the old one!
[03:57] <fabbione> ah
[03:58] <fabbione> so you would go up to 4.5T
[03:58] <asw> the budget calls for two.  one this year, one next.  But there are lots of variables.   I've got vendors sorted out but I need to sort out heat/power/space
[03:58] <maswan> asw: Heh. Yeah, we're hitting that limit in our current machine room now.
[03:58] <asw> fabbione 4.5t + ~.5 we will have by may june.
[03:59] <fabbione> asw: cool
[03:59] <maswan> asw: Some vendors say nice things about in-rack 48V DC
[04:00] <asw> a few months ago. I didn't admin anything.  this is all somewhat new to me.  When I was buying hardware seriously it was 1993...
[04:00] <maswan> Heh
[04:00] <asw> well, more like, 1993-1998
[04:00] <asw> back then 16mb of ram was a lot.
[04:01] <maswan> Well, we do keep track of this stuff since the last buy was a bit more than a year ago, and the next one should probably start procurement procedure in half a year
[04:14] <setuid> Anyone know if an AMD 3000+ is a decent processor?
[04:17] <maswan> AMD what 3000+?
[04:17] <maswan> athlon64? sempron?
[04:21] <setuid> Sec.
[04:21] <setuid> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1219286&CatId=0
[04:28] <maswan> ah, socket 754 athlon64
[04:28] <maswan> well, it depends, how much memory bandwidth do you need?
[04:40] <setuid> Sorry, was distracted calling in another ticket.
[04:40] <setuid> I just want something faster than my ageing 1.2Ghz AMD Duron
[04:41] <maswan> well, it should be 2-3 times faster anyway
[04:41] <setuid> heh
[04:41] <setuid> What should I be looking for, in a sub-$1,000/USD range?
[04:44] <maswan> well, that might be resonable
[04:45] <setuid> Hrm
[04:45] <setuid> Ok, its going to replace a 1.2Ghz Duron and a dual PIII/600 machine
[04:45] <setuid> I'll get two of these I guess
[04:46] <maswan> you might want to look at getting a slightly beefier cheapest x2 though
[04:46] <maswan> unless you do need to have those separate
[04:46] <setuid> x2?
[04:47] <maswan> dual core thingie
[04:47] <setuid> Ah
[04:49] <setuid> I wonder if I can afford that ;-(
[04:50] <maswan> well, it depends, it'll be cheaper than two lower end servers
[04:50] <maswan> but more expensive, if you still need two
[04:56] <setuid> Here we go
[04:56] <setuid> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1617476&CatId=1991
[04:59] <maswan> heh. the 4-socket machines with opteron 8xx are really expensive
[05:00] <setuid> Right, but I could run vmware or something and virtualize the hell out of it
[05:00] <maswan> sure
[05:00] <setuid> Hrm, or...
[05:01] <setuid> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1740080&CatId=1991
[05:01] <setuid> For roughly the same price as the two duals...
[05:01] <maswan> for better price/performance, I'd go for duals
[05:02] <setuid> Right, but it reduces me to a single point of failure
[05:02] <setuid> And a single IO path on the mobo
[05:03] <setuid> Wouldn't two physically-separate AMD 3000+'s be faster than 1 dual-core Opteron 165?
[05:03] <maswan> it'd be about even, I think
[05:03] <setuid> decisions, decisions ;)
[05:04] <maswan> since the opteron has twice the memory bandwidth of a socket 754, a socket 939 athlon64 on the other hand..
[05:04] <maswan> oh, well. I'm off
[05:04] <setuid> hrm... it does?
[05:17] <Psi-Jack> Anyone here know how pam_passwdqc works? :)
[07:59] <Unfun> Hello, does anyone know how to get LSI cli utilities working on Ubuntu?
[08:02] <LordHunter317> lsi?
[08:03] <Unfun> lsi is a raid card manafacturer
[08:08] <LordHunter317> oh.
[08:08] <LordHunter317> yeah. no, I don't.


[10:27] <jibel> started manual testing of ubiquity with yesterdays builds
[10:27] <jibel> 4 bugs found in 20 minutes
[13:49] <astraljava> Hi gang, I tried to get data out of the qatracker via the API, using the example file on the page.  Surely it's not on example.net. :D
[13:58] <stgraber> astraljava: <domain>/xmlrpc.php
[13:59] <astraljava> stgraber: Ahh... thanks. I was sure the qatracker was there somewhere.
[13:59] <stgraber> astraljava: so if you want the iso tracker, that's http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/xmlrpc.php, if you want the laptop tracker, that's http://laptop.qa.ubuntu.com/xmlrpc.php, ...
[13:59] <astraljava> stgraber: Excellent! Thanks! :)


[00:00] <sladen> DBO: a slightly different, but related case
[00:00] <DBO> =/
[00:00] <DBO> pretty...
[00:00] <DBO> i guess I'll just make Docky embed everything, mwahahahaha.... wait
[00:05] <sladen> https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/gtk+/docs/dnd_internals.txt  grep for "we actually have to figure out which window
[00:07] <DBO> sladen, how did you find that?
[00:11] <sladen> DBO: I'm not sure what search phrase; possibly "window manager ignore xdnd" or "xdnd masking input masking"
[00:11] <sladen> DBO: I actually have a related case for a transparent keyboard so I'm quite interested in find the answer
[00:11] <DBO> sladen, your google-fu is strong
[00:11] <DBO> well if it makes any difference to you, I am doing this all in Mono
[00:11] <DBO> so we will see if I get it working =)
[00:16] <Roey> mako:  greetings
[00:16] <Roey> mako:  hmm, wrong maco :)
[00:17] <Roey> but hello nonetheless!
[00:22] <sladen> DBO: there's going to be interesting situation when the target window, docky window and icon window overlap, if two out of the three are trying to proxy to the "correct" bottom window
[00:23] <sladen> DBO: but as long as you (in Docky) manage not to proxy it to the clipped mouse icon window, it should work
[00:23] <DBO> yeah
[00:23] <DBO> i am really curious how I am supposed to figure out how to proxy to the right window
[00:23] <DBO> lets say there are 4 or 5 windows in a stack
[00:24] <DBO> which one do I figure out is on top?
[00:25] <sladen> testing the x,y against the rectangle of the topmost, then the second most, then the third most ... until you get a hit
[00:26] <DBO> sladen, i am not sure I follow you here
[00:27] <DBO> you must excuse me, I have been programming for far less time than I should have by now
[00:27] <DBO> I can get a ref to the root window
[00:27] <DBO> are all other windows one of its children?
[00:27] <DBO> or rather, how do I find the topmost window?
[00:31] <sladen> DBO: take a bunch of pieces of paper and spread them (overlaping) on the table.  Close you eyes and put your finger down;  which piece of paper did you hit?
[00:32] <KDesk> hi
[00:32] <DBO> sladen, i know how to do that logically
[00:32] <DBO> just not in code...
[00:32] <sladen> DBO: hopefully you can check that you hit this piece of paper as you're inside it's four edges/four corners
[00:33] <DBO> i can check and see if I am in bounds
[00:33] <sladen> DBO: yup, you can get a list of all of the TOPLEVEL windows that are a a child of the ROOT window
[00:34] <DBO> right but what if two of those toplevel windows are overlapping?
[00:34] <sladen> then, if you're doing thwat Gtk is doing for efficiency you can subscribe to changes and keep you're internal list up to date
[00:34] <sladen> or if you're lazy, you can just query for the full list each time a DnD comes in
[00:34] <KDesk> For which architecture are the deb packages in Ubuntu optimized for i386, 686 or what?
[00:35] <sladen> KDesk: they're optimised for recent chips, but will run on i486 IIRC
[00:35] <DBO> i will be lazy
[00:36] <sladen> DBO: if you put all the windows in order from top to bottom, and start at the top and work downwards, you'll check the topmost one first
[00:37] <DBO> yes i know that, but how does one put them in order
[00:37] <DBO> that is the question I have been trying to ask
[00:37] <KDesk> sladen: ah, I thought there where not optimized, or only for 386, is possible to know this info from a binary package?
[00:38] <ebroder> Is there anyone from backporters who could take a look at LP bug #323546?
[00:38] <sladen> for w in sorted(get_root_window()->children) { if w.bounds.text(event->mouse.position) proxy_dnd_to(w); }
[00:39] <DBO> sladen, sorted?
[00:39] <DBO> I am not trying to be difficult
[00:39] <sladen> DBO: psuedo-code
[00:40] <DBO> i know
[00:40] <DBO> but thats the thing I am saying
[00:40] <DBO> I see nothing in gdk's api that lets you determine which window is "topmost"
[00:41] <sladen> in Python (a fabulous language, btw), it would return a copy of the array, sorted by calling __cmp__() on each object
[00:41] <sladen> which window is topmost, depends on where you are looking on the screen
[00:41] <Roey> sorted(collectionOfObjects), sladen?
[00:42] <Roey> sladen:  doesn't sorted() call __cmp__ on every element in the list passed to it?
[00:43] <sladen> KDesk: don't think so, but you can check the build-log that built that binary package.   If you were running a supercomputercluster you'd probably be worried about optimisation;  however the default configuration options are probably about as good as you can get for Desktop yse
[00:44] <KDesk> sladen: ah, ok, thanks a lot! A last question, where can I find the build log, in launchpad?
[00:44] <sladen> Roey: so you might do  sorted(window_list, cmp=lambda a,b: x.height < y.height)
[00:45] <Roey> ahhhh ok
[00:45] <Roey> I had thought that sorted() calls __cmp__
[00:45] <Roey> but, you're right, I've used sorted() in the way you described to sort IP address stringts
[00:45] <Roey> strings
[00:45] <Roey> so yeah
[00:51] <sladen> KDesk: probably easier if you say which package you're after.  eg. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xbill/2.1-7/+build/593853
[00:53] <KDesk> sladen: oh, thanks! I was only curious about the optimization. :)
[00:58] <cjwatson> ScottK: yes, yes - maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Debian. The point is that there's nothing wrong with having a package in a private revision control system and just uploading the tar/diff that results from it, as long as it's then your responsibility to maintain it.
[00:58] <ScottK> cjwatson: Certainly.
[01:40] <DBO> sladen, it works!
[01:40]  * DBO dances the dance of joy
[02:41] <jelmer> slangasek, hi
[03:47] <sladen> DBO: rock!
[03:47] <DBO> sladen, how can I thank you in the source, real name, sladen, email?
[04:26] <bettercoder> Hey guys! I think I am cool enough to be a mainstream dev! I made a program that prints hello world! pretty sweet, eh??!!!!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!??
[04:27] <bettercoder> also, is ubuntu vulnerable to the y2k bug/
[04:27] <bettercoder> hello???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????
[04:27] <bettercoder> WWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYY WOOOON"TTT ANNNYYONNNE ANNNNSSSSSSWEEEEEEEEERRRR????????????
[04:28] <patxbot> stfuckup
[04:28] <patxbot> jeese
[04:28] <bettercoder> whats does stfuckup mean?
[04:28] <patxbot> it means be quiet
[04:29] <bettercoder> ok, thats a good idea
[04:29] <patxbot> stop spamming
[04:29] <bettercoder> So
[04:29] <bettercoder> hw do i b a dev?
[04:29] <patxbot> ty
[04:29] <bettercoder> huh??huh??
[04:29] <patxbot> you develop brains *first* cos i do not have any of them...
[05:54] <jsmidt> Is there anyone here who understands PPAs well?
[05:54] <jsmidt> I am trying to build Python 3.0 for hardy.
[05:54] <jsmidt> https://launchpad.net/~python-ubuntu/+archive/ppa
[05:54] <jsmidt> It build depends on python-sphinx
[05:55] <jsmidt> I have successfully build this in the PPA for Hardy
[05:55] <jsmidt> Yet Python 3.0 still complians the build dependency isn't met
[05:55] <jsmidt> How do you get a package in the PPA to "see" the other packages?
[05:56] <jsmidt> https://launchpad.net/%7Epython-ubuntu/+archive/ppa/+build/854896/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.python3.0_3.0-0~ppa7~hardy_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[05:56] <jsmidt> Thanks in advance.
[06:12] <ScottK> jsmidt: PPAs have nothing to do with Ubuntu.  They use Ubuntu, but are done by Launchpad.  Try PPA questions in #launchpad.
[06:12] <jsmidt> ScottK, thanks
[06:13] <jsmidt> (Though I'm sure you are technically right, very few people would say PPAs have nothing to do with Ubuntu.  Much in Ubuntu is done through using PPAs)
[06:23] <ScottK> People use PPAs for testing, but "Ubuntu" the distro does not come from PPAs.
[06:23] <jsmidt> ScottK, yes I know, I know.
[06:25] <jsmidt> ScottK, I wasn't trying to argue.
[06:25] <ScottK> OK.  I think it's an important point.  I am tired of dealing with bugs filed against Ubuntu packages that are really from some random PPA.
[06:37] <jsmidt> ScottK, I'm sure that is very frustrating.  And so now that I think about it, my issue is probably annoying for the same reason.  :)
[11:33] <slangasek> pitti: please consider those Hotkey pages locked by me currently, for spec drafting :)
[11:34] <slangasek> pitti: but thanks for the information - bryce and I were struggling with exactly this question on the plane; I'll review what you've added to see if it makes sense out of what I see with thinkpad_acpi
[11:35] <slangasek> jelmer: hi, thanks for the fixed branch - what's the right way for me to replace the current ~ubuntu-core-dev branch with yours?
[11:36] <ogra> slangasek, hey, arrived safely ?
[11:36] <slangasek> ogra: yep, all 16 of us
[11:37] <ogra> great :)
[11:41] <slangasek> pitti: btw, hal-info isn't currently in bzr?  Should I push an ~ubuntu-core-dev branch based off of the jaunty package-import?  (I have a patch for it to fix a ThinkPad hotkey)
[14:13] <ion_> http://golf.naurunappula.com/nn/0/151/007/336376.jpg
[14:13] <ion_> Sorry, wrong channel. :-(
[14:30] <tjaalton> lool: libdrm is maintained in git, so probably the "Rename Vcs-*" bit is wrong? (thanks for adding lpia, I didn't know -1.2 was out)
[14:52] <hyperair> could someone look at bug #268141 please? debdiff's attached for both intrepid and jaunty.
[14:55] <directhex> erm... is requestsync being insane again?
[14:57] <lool> tjaalton: Oh sorry, I checked the git tree and didn't see the ubuntu branch
[14:57] <lool> tjaalton: Which branch is it?
[14:57] <lool> tjaalton: Uh I'm blind
[14:57] <Rocket2DMn> TheMuso, i'm looking at bug 308539 which states that the problem is that libft-perl is uninstallable - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/defoma/0.11.10-0.2ubuntu1
[14:57] <lool> tjaalton: I checked it out extra yesterday evening to check
[14:58] <lool> tjaalton: But I missed the branch
[14:58] <lool> tjaalton: Sorry about that
[14:58] <lool> tjaalton: Yeah, not only is the rename wrong but I should have committed there
[14:58] <Rocket2DMn> TheMuso, can you tell me how to proceed with the triage on that bug?  Can we somehow link it to that page
[15:02] <Rocket2DMn> TheMuso, please ignore my previous comments, sorry
[15:04] <tjaalton> lool: no problem :)
[15:05] <TheMuso> Rocket2DMn: uh... ok. :)
[15:05] <Rocket2DMn> heh, sorry man
[15:06] <TheMuso> np
[15:26] <lool> tjaalton: Pushed 2.4.4-0ubuntu4 and a revert of the XS-Original-Vcs-* change to git
[17:19] <TheMuso> c
[17:27] <pitti> fta: that was a bug in gvfs, hopefully worked around in the latest version
[17:28] <fta> pitti, eh.. what for?
[17:28] <pitti> slangasek: locked pages> oh, sorry; but I only really added information, so I guess it's ok
[17:29] <pitti> slangasek: hal-info isn't in bzr; I commit stuff directly into git upstream; but if it helps you, feel free to bzrize it
[17:29] <pitti> fta: you pinged me earlier about getting file:// urls when reporting apport crashes
[17:29] <fta> pitti, oh, ok. thanks
[17:30] <fta> pitti, i ended up filling bug 323409
[17:31] <pitti> fta: FYI, bug 314263 is the breakage you mention
[17:32] <fta> pitti, yes, sure. i encountered 314263 while fighting against 323409.
[17:32] <fta> now waiting for Keybuk to have a look at 323409
[17:56] <slangasek> pitti: ah, well, if it doesn't help you, I probably won't bother bzring hal-info since LP needs to be taught about the project first
[17:56] <slangasek> pitti: anyway, should I upload my ThinkVantage change, or email it to you?
[18:06] <allquixotic> Hi, I found a bug in Jaunty (a regression from 8.10) which causes hald to crash during input hotplugging when I have a Logitech ChillStream video game controller plugged in to USB. The controller worked, and hald didn't crash, under 8.10. What sort of priority should I file a bug with? What details should I include?
[19:42] <calc> hello
[21:42] <bluefoxicy> okay this has been bugging me forever
[21:42] <bluefoxicy> can somebody please extend fakeroot to debian package INSTALLATION?
[21:42] <ion_> Why?
[21:42] <bluefoxicy> I should not be able to make a .deb that gets run, asks a question, gets a "no" and aborts installation
[21:42] <bluefoxicy> and leaves a rootkit behind on my system
[21:43] <bluefoxicy> current method of package installation:  glorified tarball.  Unpack, run pre-install.sh, does whatever it wants to your system AS ROOT
[21:43] <ion_> It’s okay if it leaves behind a keylogger on your user account?
[21:43] <bluefoxicy> installing a non-root service that runs as a restricted user and can't affect your system (say...wesnoth's dedicated server?)?  It can still gain root access
[21:43] <ion_> It’s not a problem of the package manager if a user installs a malicious package.
[21:44] <bluefoxicy> ion_:  I have had to re-install before (later, modify the deb) because of a bug in the java deb
[21:44] <bluefoxicy> if you don't check "I Agree" on the license question, it makes a permanent change to your system and aborts installation
[21:44] <bluefoxicy> pre-rm and post-rm don't undo it
[21:44] <elmo> bluefoxicy: it's not a permanent change
[21:44] <elmo> it's a debconf question
[21:45] <bluefoxicy> elmo:  yes, and if you say no, and then attempt installation again, it doesn't ask;it just says, "oh, no, you didn't want to agree to the license, so screw you"
[21:45] <elmo> bluefoxicy: ok, but that doesn't make it permanent
[21:45] <elmo> the debconf DB is entirely under your control
[21:45] <bluefoxicy> elmo:  nothing's technically "permanent."
[21:46] <ion_> 0) That can be fixed in the packaging, 1) how is fakeroot relevant here?
[21:46] <bluefoxicy> it could replace /bin/sh with malware, and I could technically replace the malware with a proper /bin/sh
[21:46] <bluefoxicy> ion_:  0) It's a package bug; 1) I don't believe the system should be changed, at all, until the package is finished installing.
[21:47] <bluefoxicy> in Gentoo, when a package is built, emerge has a sandbox environment that forbids real writes outside the build and image directory
[21:47] <bluefoxicy> post-installation file access pulls the files into the image directory, and i.e. updates to samba.conf or /etc/passwd get written to copies in the image directory
[21:47] <soren> I don't think fakeroot is the right tool for something like htat.
[21:47] <bluefoxicy> the final step is to "merge" that to /
[21:48] <bluefoxicy> at any point before then, your system has been completely unchanged
[21:48] <bluefoxicy> soren:  yeah that's whyI said extend... fakeroot doesn't do anything nearly useful for that
[21:48] <bluefoxicy> at one point I almost wrote a completely different package manager because i don't like things playing around with full root access running arbitrary code just to install
[21:49] <soren> I don't think fakeroot is the right application to extend to achieve something like that.
[21:49] <bluefoxicy> I don't have to audit the final installed files, config changes, etc; I have to audit the entire logic of the installation system
[21:49] <bluefoxicy> soren:  maybe so.
[21:49] <elmo> how do you audit the final installed files?
[21:49] <elmo> JOOI
[21:50] <bluefoxicy> elmo:  make all changes to an isolated image that gets  copied over / to finalize installation; then stop it at that point, and examine that tree?
[21:50] <Notch-1> hi, i'm trying to boot intrepid from a loop device, using root=/dev/loop0 (or root=700) boot parameter, and a little initrd script that mount the device containing the image, and then "losetup /dev/loop0 /path-to-the-image"... but it still can't find init... can anybody help me?
[21:50] <bluefoxicy> SUID binaries, strange changes to /etc/passwd, debconf settings, strange binaries that shouldn't exist, funny scripts generated by obfuscated logic in the pre-install scripts of the package...
[21:50] <bluefoxicy> all lain out clear
[21:52] <bluefoxicy> anyway
[21:52] <bluefoxicy> endrant
[21:59] <tjaalton> lool: excellent, thanks
[22:09] <Notch-1> please guys, anybody familiar with booting loop images?
[22:20] <ScottK> Notch-1: User support in #ubuntu
[22:21] <Notch-1> ScottK: thank you


[15:14] <mup> Issue operator#995 opened: `cgi` module deprecated in Python 3.11 <Created by NucciTheBoss> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/995>


[19:40] <aendruk> Salt: Did the images show up for you in my recent email?
[19:40] <Salt> sec
[19:41] <Salt> where'd you send it...
[19:41] <aendruk><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:42] <Salt> it's possible that list didn't make the transfer to my new email...
[19:42] <Salt> wonder how i can check
[19:43] <aendruk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-wa
[19:43] <Salt> perhaps this is why i've been missing all the ubuntu emails
[19:44] <Salt> sent a password reminder, i'll know soon if i have an account on there
[19:45] <aendruk> i'm been having the most difficult time trying to send this thing. 40KB size limit does not lend well to discussions involving images
[19:45] <Salt> yeah, i think i've missed out on the last few months of ubuntu emails
[19:46] <aendruk> and the "A non-text attachment was scrubbed" warning in the online archives doesn't make me very comfortable
[19:47] <Salt> what's the thread bout
[19:47] <aendruk> it's here if you want to see it: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-wa/2011-April/thread.html
[19:47] <Salt> oh nice
[19:47] <Salt> was wondering why i hadn't seen discussion of the table...
[19:48] <aendruk> well there hasn't been much
[19:48] <aendruk> think i'm just going to throw the images up on the wiki
[19:49] <Salt> aye
[19:49] <Salt> i can get unity up on my eee
[19:49] <Salt> so we'll have the nbr at least
[19:55] <Salt> btw, just found an awesome tool called snap links
[19:55] <Salt> for firefox
[20:03] <Salt> http://snaplinks.mozdev.org/ fyi
[23:12] <valorie> aendruk: are you getting the bigger vinyl banner?
[23:12] <valorie> I hope
[23:12] <valorie> I will pay if more is neede
[23:12] <valorie> d
[23:13] <valorie> 3 foot long would be useful too
[23:14] <aendruk> I'd like to get that one I think. It would be useful.
[23:15] <aendruk> Linda said she has some donated cash from last year, and I can chip in too so I don't think it'll be a problem.
[23:18] <aendruk> by "that one" I mean the 42" vinyl one
[23:18] <valorie> cool
[23:19] <valorie> I'm getting so excited to get up there
[23:19] <valorie> :-)
[23:19] <valorie> salt, what does that snaplinks do?
[23:19] <valorie> oh, I see
[23:20] <aendruk> kind of a useless web page for finding that out, isn't it?
[23:20] <valorie> yes
[23:20] <valorie> but google told me
[23:20] <valorie> heh, not compatible with my ff version
[23:21] <aendruk> i think he said there is a newer one on the dev site
[23:21] <aendruk> http://snaplinks.mozdev.org/
[23:22] <valorie> yep
[23:22] <valorie> odd that the ff add-ons site is behind
[23:26] <aendruk> have any input on which design to print?
[23:27] <Salt> link again?
[23:27] <aendruk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WashingtonTeam/Brainstorm
[23:27] <Salt> #2
[23:28] <Salt> 36" vinyl
[23:28] <Salt> what do you think the best way to attach it to a table would be?
[23:28] <aendruk> Ashex, c0nv1ct, eTR-[a], MarkDude, MJEvans, seattlegaucho, zenrox: I'd love to hear your input.
[23:28] <Salt> rope perhaps...
[23:28] <aendruk> blue tape
[23:29] <aendruk> keep in mind we have a tablecloth too
[23:29] <zenrox> i wont be able to go any way so i have no input
[23:29] <aendruk> so forget the tape... i have a bunch of tiny bungee cords we could use
[23:29] <Ashex> aendruk, #3
[23:30] <Ashex> I'm assuming it would cost extra to change the bg
[23:30] <valorie> I'd vote for 1 or 3
[23:30] <Salt> the smaller lettering is so nice!
[23:30] <valorie> zenrox: how come you aren't coming?
[23:30] <valorie> it is
[23:31] <valorie> :-)
[23:31] <valorie> I like them all
[23:31] <zenrox> getting ready to move from pullman and moving to moses lake
[23:31] <seattlegaucho> I like 3
[23:31] <aendruk> wouldn't change the cost actually. what did you have in mind?
[23:31]  * seattlegaucho likes the fact that Loco in Spanish means crazy
[23:32] <valorie> fits us well, right?
[23:32] <valorie> :-)
[23:32] <seattlegaucho> :)
[23:32] <valorie> I like the white bg
[23:32] <zenrox> the crazy washingtonions
[23:32] <valorie> makes a nice contrast
[23:33] <seattlegaucho> he, the other day @ a b'day someone was trying to rally the MSFT friends to convince to stop using Android/LInux
[23:33] <seattlegaucho> HA!
[23:34] <zenrox> android = the most sought after os
[23:34] <zenrox> of phones
[23:38] <zenrox> on a really good bit of trivia wa uses linux on all the lottery machines
[23:56] <MarkDude> aendruk, the banners are cool. Saying washington is important, or folks come up with Canonical questions- not sure why :)
[23:57] <MarkDude> And for sure get vinyl- it lasts more- and the bond paper can get damaged- way to easily, imho