[08:01] <TheMue> Morning
[08:10] <rogpeppe> mornin' all
[08:14] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Hiya
[10:16] <TheMue> rogpeppe: ping
[10:16] <rogpeppe> TheMue: pong
[10:16] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Maybe you can help me localizing an error.
[10:16] <rogpeppe> TheMue: glad to help if i can
[10:17] <TheMue> rogpeppe: You know about the rollback of my firewaller change by Dave? It lead to a hanging test in cmd/jujud
[10:17] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i'd seen that go past, yes
[10:18] <TheMue> rogpeppe: It is the MachineSuite.TestProvisionerFirewaller.
[10:19] <TheMue> rogpeppe: So I loked at it with gocheck.vv.
[10:19] <TheMue> rogpeppe: One moment, will paste the log.
[10:20] <TheMue> rogpeppe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1509166/
[10:20] <rogpeppe> *click*
[10:20] <TheMue> rogpeppe: You'll see from line 66 that there's a loop. And that will time out after 5 minutes.
[10:20] <fwereade> rogpeppe, TheMue: heh, I was just needing to write some tests there myself and getting depressed about the can't-sync issue
[10:21] <TheMue> rogpeppe: The firewaller tests themselves pass fine.
[10:21] <fwereade> TheMue, ah, that weirdness is fixed in one of my current CLs
[10:21] <TheMue> fwereade: Oh!
[10:22] <TheMue> fwereade: *hug*
[10:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: which particular weirdness is that? and what was the fix?
[10:22] <fwereade> TheMue, well, ok, some of the weirdness
[10:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the lack of a sane environment in which to run and the whining about tools
[10:23] <rogpeppe> fwereade: sorry, i'm feeling stupid - how does that tally with TheMue's issue above?
[10:23] <fwereade> TheMue, rogpeppe: yeah, I'm probably wrong -- I think I was looking at the wrong bit of the log
[10:23] <TheMue> fwereade: From reading the test itself I found now problem regarding the firewaller. Funnily the test passes before I merge the firewaller change. Afterwards it looks like in the paste.
[10:23] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it looks like the crux is that it's getting unauthorized access
[10:24] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Exactly.
[10:25] <rogpeppe> TheMue: have you tried putting in printfs that print when the password is being changed, and what password is being connected with?
[10:25] <rogpeppe> TheMue: that might help narrow down the issue
[10:26] <fwereade> dimitern, heyhey, are you back in town?
[10:26] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Inside the test there's no obvious change, but I'll add statements to see where it may happen.
[10:27] <dimitern> fwereade: hey :) yeah - landed early this morning
[10:27] <fwereade> dimitern, ah cool
[10:27] <rogpeppe> TheMue: that's worth doing i think - put the printfs in the relevant state functions
[10:27] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yo!
[10:27] <fwereade> dimitern, nice hols?
[10:28] <dimitern> fwereade: oh yeah! much needed as well
[10:28] <dimitern> fwereade: yours?
[10:28] <fwereade> dimitern, yeah, very peaceful, was really nice having nico and rie over for xmas
[10:29] <fwereade> dimitern, we've still got another duck in the freezer, I'll let you know when I can be bothered to cook it ;p
[10:31] <dimitern> fwereade: cool :) beers later?
[10:31] <fwereade> dimitern, sgtm, I'll figure out cath's movements and let you know
[10:32] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Interesting, the failure differs. Just had a different simple test fail, and now again the hanging process due to unauthorized access. :(
[10:33] <rogpeppe> TheMue: the failure differs after you've added the printfs? or just it differs from run to run?
[10:34] <TheMue> rogpeppe: From run to run.
[10:34] <rogpeppe> TheMue: what did the new failure look like?
[10:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, TheMue: a suggestion: the runOnce methods should *take* a *State, and then we get to do an end-run around the deployer-testing nonsense; the machiner-testing nonsense I'm about to hit; probably uniter-testing weirdness I don't remember
[10:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, TheMue: ...and as a bonus it is somewhat likely we'll be able to write a firewaller/provisioner test I can understand ;p
[10:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm looking at that stuff right now as well :-)
[10:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: what difference would passing a state to runOnce make?
[10:37] <TheMue> rogpeppe: The hanging looks like before, otherwise I get one unautherized, but afterwards the opening of the port fails.
[10:37] <TheMue> fwereade: So, I have a problem following you. :/
[10:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, IMO the fact that we can't touch the state used in the workers without serious gymnastics makes everything harder
[10:38] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i'm afraid i can't really help without more information. you'll just have to dive in and work out what's going on
[10:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: how does changing the signature of runOnce help there?
[10:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that it gives us a point at which we can sanely hook a test in
[10:39] <rogpeppe> fwereade: personally, i was thinking of adding a var openState func(*state.Info) (*state.State, error)
[10:39] <rogpeppe> fwereade: global
[10:40] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not sure i want tests to know about runOnce
[10:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the tests know everything anyway, except the things they need to know
[10:40] <rogpeppe> fwereade: lol
[10:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I must say I really am finding them hard to work with :/
[10:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the idea is that the test is minimal, because all the real testing is done in the worker packages themselves, and in jujud we only need to verify that the right components have been joined up correctly
[10:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: if we call runOnce directly, we aren't verifying that Run will actually do the right thing
[10:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, so maybe we should test them both?
[10:44] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you're principally concerned about the sync issue here, right?
[10:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the sync issue is one thing
[10:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the fact that there's duplication between the two agents also concerns me
[10:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the dancing around with passwords is hard to follow, and should clearly be common
[10:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i had that factored out originally, but was persuaded not to do that
[10:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I can well believe it :/
[10:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and... it's only four lines of code
[10:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not sure it's that hard to follow
[10:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, trust me, it is hard to follow
[10:48] <rogpeppe> 	if passwordChanged != "" {
[10:48] <rogpeppe> 		if err := m.SetPassword(a.Conf.StateInfo.Password); err != nil {
[10:48] <rogpeppe> oops
[10:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, there is no justification I can see for smearing the password-handling across openState and 2 spearate clients
[10:48] <rogpeppe> that's new
[10:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you can't set the password before you've retrieved the relevant entity from the state
[10:49] <rogpeppe> fwereade: so you'd need to pass in a function to do that
[10:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, or maybe we could have a sane state API
[10:49] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and if you do that (i did, before) the code ends up just as difficult to understant
[10:49] <rogpeppe> d
[10:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we have this ridiculous groupthink lie that "agents aren't a concept that exists in state"
[10:50] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i started with a different API too.
[10:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe, SetAgentPassword(entityName, password string)
[10:50] <rogpeppe> fwereade: what happens if the entity doesn't exist?
[10:50] <rogpeppe> fwereade: (FWIW that was my original design)
[10:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe, state can figure that out trivially
[10:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I believe you :(
[10:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, this is the trouble
[10:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm reluctant to change this stuff now - it was hammered out at some length, and it's not too bad as is, i think
[10:52] <rogpeppe> fwereade: apart from the code-readability issue, what does it help with?
[10:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it gets us one step closer to treating the two agents the same
[10:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, maybe this is just a pipe dream of mine
[10:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think it's reasonable to have different code for both agents - they're independent entities
[10:53] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the only thing that should be different is the list of workers
[10:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, everything else is exactly the same, but we duplicate it imperfectly because niemeyer insists
[10:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and so I get really grumpy whenever I have to work around there
[10:55] <fwereade> rogpeppe, because there *is* a good design, and it's probably pretty close to a combination of the things that you and I both tried to do early on, but we've been forbidden to do that
[10:56] <fwereade> rogpeppe, a thought -- if you find it easy to work in that area
[10:56] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i dunno - i'm not sure that making the two agents be exactly the same except for the tasks the run is necessarily right. the current design gives us leeway to make them significantly different if we want without significant code disruption, and i think that's a useful freedom.
[10:57] <rogpeppe> s/the run/they run/
[10:57] <fwereade> rogpeppe, honestly, it feels to me like being different from python just for the sake of it
[10:57] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the python stuff was just fine, once yu scraped away the layers of twisted caking it
[10:58] <fwereade> rogpeppe, (to be clear: the very specific idea of having "agent" functionality distinct from the actual agents themselves)
[10:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it lets you, eg, test the Run code without dicking around with the details of what the individual agents happen to want to do in runOnce
[10:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but let us stipulate that for some reason I am irrational here
[10:59] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ? we can do that, can't we?
[10:59] <rogpeppe> fwereade: isn't testing the Run code what we do currently?
[11:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, by unreliable side-effect of the action of runOnce, yes
[11:00] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ah, you mean the Run code without runOnce
[11:01] <rogpeppe> fwereade: we could do that, actually, without too much hassle, if we wanted
[11:01] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the Run code is more-or-less identical for both
[11:01] <fwereade> rogpeppe, well, not really, because we duplicate Run for each agent
[11:01] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah
[11:01] <fwereade> rogpeppe, so there's nothing common except by coincidence
[11:02] <rogpeppe> fwereade: we could have a function: func Run(once RunOncer) error
[11:02] <rogpeppe> fwereade: no coincidence - i try to keep them as similar as possible so i can look at them side by side and see that they're the same
[11:03] <rogpeppe> fwereade: maybe func RunLoop
[11:04] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I guess that could work, but it still feels like it's primarily dictated by the arbitrary "these 2 bits of code that are the same must be duplicated because we might one day want to change them" constraint
[11:04] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we factor another little common bit out, great
[11:04] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and we now have another, slightly simpler structure, that is duplicated across the agents
[11:05] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but, let me take a step sideways for a moment
[11:05] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I am pleased that you find jujud easy to deal with, because I surely do not
[11:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, if I cut back what I'm doing and just propose a Machiner
[11:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and assign to you a bug for integrating it and testing it
[11:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I will shut up about it
[11:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, until next time ;p
[11:06] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not saying i find it *easy* to deal with :-)
[11:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but the concerns you've voiced don't map well to the difficulties i have with it
[11:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1509259/ ?
[11:08] <rogpeppe> fwereade: oops http://paste.ubuntu.com/1509261/
[11:08] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that would, I agree, be a step forward
[11:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: func (st *State) Entity(entityName string) Entity; type Entity interface {everything that entities have in common}
[11:23] <rogpeppe> sorry, func (st *State) Entity(entityName string) (Entity, error) of course
[11:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I would *probably* love that, but I think it's a non-starter because niemeyer doesn't believe in agents
[11:24] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i don't see anything about agents there
[11:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, but it's actually all about agents
[11:25] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that's the trick :-)
[11:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, only the entities with agents have "entity names"
[11:25] <mramm> mgz, jam, dimitern: I was able to add all of you to the juju core kanban board
[11:25] <mgz> mramm: ace, thanks
[11:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, everything else just has names (as do the ones with agents too ofc)
[11:25] <dimitern> mramm: cool, 10x
[11:25] <mramm> mgz, jam, dimitern: I added ian too, and you should be able to see everything now
[11:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, IMO there is something badly wrong when we have entities, that have names, but EntityName means something entirely different
[11:26] <dimitern> mramm: I can see it yeah
[11:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, i think we're using the word "entity" wrong
[11:26] <mramm> jam: I didn't realize I could make that change since I had admin on that board, so thanks
[11:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and the only reason we're doing it is because we're not allowed to mention agents :(
[11:27]  * dimitern => lunch
[11:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, despite the existence of a bunch of agent methods already
[11:27] <mramm> rogpeppe, fwereade, TheMue: you all should be able to see the blue kanban board now too
[11:28] <fwereade> mramm, so I can; thanks
[11:29] <TheMue> mramm: Thx
[11:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, however, I don't think I am engaging in anything constructive here :( if you can see a way past my mental blockage I will be very happy
[11:31] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm having a go
[11:33] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I think for now I will just do the Machiner and forget about integration, at least I will accomplish something :)
[11:42]  * fwereade lunches
[12:01] <jam> mramm: no problem, thanks for adding us to juju-core
[12:07] <TheMue> Lunchtime
[12:59] <jam> mgz, fwereade, TheMue, Aram, rogpeppe, dimitern: are we meeting at https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/33acfc2c8af8792568274fa110371db956f9fde7# ?
[12:59] <rogpeppe> jam: i believe we are
[13:00] <mgz> okay
[13:05] <jam> mramm: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/33acfc2c8af8792568274fa110371db956f9fde7#
[13:30] <dimitern> ping
[13:33]  * mramm gets some breakfast -- will be back soon
[13:42] <rogpeppe> lunch
[14:05] <rogpeppe> back
[14:16] <rogpeppe> fwereade:  https://codereview.appspot.com/7071051
[14:16] <fwereade> rogpeppe, looking
[14:18] <rogpeppe> fwereade: of course, it's a law of nature that the overall line count goes up, even though we're removing duplicated code :-(
[14:18] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think it's nicer though
[14:18] <rogpeppe> pwd
[14:18] <fwereade> rogpeppe, from what I've seen so far the clarity is worth it -- and I think it's a step towards an actual reduction one day
[14:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe, LGTM
[14:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: thanks
[14:22] <rogpeppe> Aram, TheMue, jam, mgz, dimitern: any chance of a second opinion? https://codereview.appspot.com/7071051
[14:23]  * dimitern looking
[14:23] <TheMue> *click*
[14:26] <dimitern> rogpeppe: LGTM - nice and simpler
[14:26] <rogpeppe> dimitern: thanks
[14:27] <rogpeppe> dimitern: would you mind replying with your LGTM to the CL, please?
[14:27] <rogpeppe> dimitern: (i see a blank reply, which i surmise might've been intended to contain something :-])
[14:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe: hmmm I did enter the LGTM but let me see what went wrong
[14:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe: done
[14:29] <fwereade> rogpeppe, dimitern: https://codereview.appspot.com/7069055 is hopefully also trivial
[14:29] <dimitern> all sorts of crazy stuff is happening with my machine today :(
[14:29] <rogpeppe> dimitern: thanks. will submit assuming TheMue thinks it's ok.
[14:29] <rogpeppe> fwereade: looking
[14:29] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Just sent my LGTM. ;)
[14:29] <rogpeppe> TheMue: ta!
[14:30] <fwereade> this is totally irrelevant but utterly awesome:
[14:31] <fwereade> I see you driving / round town with the girl I love / and I'm like "HAIKU"
[14:33] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ignoring that :-] i'm not sure that "machiner" is a great name for the code you've put into worker/machiner
[14:34] <rogpeppe> fwereade: is the plan to expand it, or is the "wait for dying, make dead" thing its full extent?
[14:34] <fwereade> rogpeppe, well, yeah, it's an awful name, but it's one I thought we had consensus on
[14:34] <fwereade> rogpeppe, not sure yet
[14:34] <fwereade> rogpeppe, no *current* plans
[14:34] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it may or may not end up handling, say, authorized-keys
[14:35] <rogpeppe> fwereade: for me, "machiner" is what the machine agent does, but that code's only a small part of that
[14:35] <dimitern> fwereade: looking
[14:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but I think that's probably a different worker's job
[14:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, strongly disagree
[14:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the machine agent has always had provisioner and firewaller and suchlike
[14:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the machiner is for the stuff that's directly relevant to a *state.Machine
[14:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, or at least that was the logic I inferred
[14:36] <dimitern> fwereade: done - I like these short CLs
[14:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yes, those are workers within the machine agent
[14:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, agreed... machiner and machine agent distinguish the stuff-for-dealing-with-the-machine from the process-that-runs-on-the-machine-and-deals-with-all-sorts-of-things
[14:37] <rogpeppe> "mr.tomb.Kill(mr.loop())" - i think you should tell Mr Tomb to play nicely with Mr Loop :-)
[14:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, haha
[14:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, (do you have a better name than machiner? I picked it because (1) AIUI it was already agreed and (2) it saved me inventing a worse name ;))
[14:41] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i was just wondering about "lifecycler"
[14:41] <fwereade> rogpeppe, hmm, I think it's have to be MachineLifecycler
[14:41] <fwereade> rogpeppe, which is a bit icky
[14:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: unless it was generic
[14:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: which might not be too hard, especially given that the agent types now have "Entity" methods
[14:42] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but it won;t be, because the machine's handling of lifecycle issues is rather different to that of the uniter, which is the thing responsible for unit lifecycle
[14:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, that is a pity
[14:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I think that trying to split that stuff out of the uniter is a very bad idea
[14:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm sure that's true
[14:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that reminds me: have you seen this? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OHqQoQLJPQA/UOqyvDiHdjI/AAAAAAAAAeM/u_TJ1vXkTjw/s1600/what-the-british-say.jpg
[14:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, IMO it maintains symetry and something close-enough to clarity given what already exists
[14:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, love it
[14:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: shouldn't this code wait for the deployer to kill the units before setting the machine to dead?
[14:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ah, but perhaps we can assume that the machine can't be set to dying while there are still units around
[14:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: if so, that deserves a comment
[14:54] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Just merged your latest changed, instead of a hanging loop I now get a panic.
[14:54] <fwereade> TheMue, that sounds liek progress to me :)
[14:54] <rogpeppe> lol
[14:55] <rogpeppe> TheMue: what's the panic?
[14:56] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but, yeah, that is the case; I'm a touch reluctant to comment things that should be clear from a reasonable understanding of state.Machine, mainly because it's just one more place to re-comment as and when that detail changes
[14:56] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but I don't feel that strongly
[14:56] <TheMue> rogpeppe: One moment, will paste it. It's again in the TestProvisionerFirewaller
[14:57] <TheMue> rogpeppe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1509698/
[14:57] <rogpeppe> fwereade: just a single line before EnsureDead should suffice: // It's OK to set the Machine to dead because it can't be set to dying unless it has no units.
[14:57] <fwereade> rogpeppe, fair enough
[14:59] <rogpeppe> TheMue: could you push a branch so i can have a look?
[14:59] <TheMue> rogpeppe: It's during the second run of the Changes() loop, after the first one has an IsNotFound().
[14:59] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Yep, I'll let my printlns in.
[15:00] <fwereade> kanban review meeting btw
[15:01] <fwereade> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/539f4239bf2fd8f454b789d64cd7307166bc9083#
[15:02] <TheMue> rogpeppe: it's @ lp:~themue/juju-core/007-firewaller-integration
[15:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, https://codereview.appspot.com/7035060/ https://codereview.appspot.com/7028049/ https://codereview.appspot.com/7030061/ and the one linked above... https://codereview.appspot.com/7069055
[15:36] <fwereade> TheMue, the 1st and 3rd of those want for an additional reviewer, if you're of a mind
[15:38] <TheMue> fwereade: one moment, meeting
[16:05] <TheMue> fwereade: Back again, so now looking
[16:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: all reviewed, i think
[16:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, tyvm
[16:30] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Any idea on the panic?
[16:31] <rogpeppe> TheMue: ah, sorry, i'd been elsewhere, will have a look
[16:32] <TheMue> rogpeppe: np, had been elswhere too. ;)
[16:37] <rogpeppe> TheMue: well, i've found why it's panicing, but it won't help you...
[16:37] <TheMue> rogpeppe: As long as it allows me to continue error searching. ;)
[16:38] <rogpeppe> TheMue: BTW for debugging messages, it's usually better to use log.Printf (or c.Logf) rather than println - that way it fits into the usual gocheck logs
[16:40] <TheMue> rogpeppe: But you miss them w/o at least gocheck.v. And sometime I want to reduce those messages and only have a first narrowing. ;)
[16:41] <rogpeppe> TheMue: grep is your friend :-)
[16:41] <TheMue> rogpeppe: They all will be removed before pushing it.
[16:41] <TheMue> rogpeppe: There are many ways to reach the same goal.
[16:54] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i think i've found your problem
[16:55] <TheMue> rogpeppe: I'm listening.
[16:56] <rogpeppe> TheMue: yup, it's a one line fix
[16:56] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Great
[16:56] <rogpeppe> TheMue: the problem is that the machine that's added by TestProvisionerFirewaller doesn't have an instance id
[16:56] <rogpeppe> TheMue: so the provisioner tries to provision it
[16:57] <rogpeppe> TheMue: but it's already been provisioned (and the password changed) so we've got two places changing the same password
[16:57] <rogpeppe> TheMue: (you should've followed my suggestion to print out the passwords :-])
[16:58] <TheMue> rogpeppe: I wouldn't have been able to interpret that output because I'm not in that mimik.
[17:00] <rogpeppe> TheMue: adding a SetInstanceId in machine_test.go after the st.AddMachine in addMachine fixes the problem
[17:00] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Wonderful, thx.
[17:10] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Yeah, now everything is green.
[17:16] <fwereade> rogpeppe, re state already having fetched the machine, I don't trust the client not to reuse the machine on another goroutine
[17:16] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sane/acceptable?
[17:17] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think it's ok to pass ownership to the machiner in this case
[17:18] <rogpeppe> fwereade: hmm, this is where we really want a Clone method
[17:18] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, indeed, that would make everythig perfectly explicit
[17:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think we should do it.
[17:19] <fwereade> rogpeppe, in the meantime I think I prefer habitually telling other goroutines about ids rather than entities
[17:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: NewMachiner isn't a goroutine, it's a function
[17:20] <fwereade> rogpeppe, can I make it a separate CL? no point doing it if I don't actually trawl the codebase for places it'd be useful...
[17:20] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, i guess
[17:22] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Btw, both TestChangePasswordChanging still fail.
[17:22] <rogpeppe> TheMue: fail how?
[17:23] <rogpeppe> TheMue: in trunk?
[17:23] <TheMue> rogpeppe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1510037/
[17:24] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Will test trunk, one moment.
[17:24] <rogpeppe> TheMue: the tests work ok for me in trunk
[17:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, btw, sorry, I forgot to propose https://codereview.appspot.com/7030061 again :(
[17:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, should be trivial now
[17:26] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Strange, in my trunk  MachineSuite.TestParseUnknown panics.
[17:28] <rogpeppe> TheMue: it passes for me
[17:28] <rogpeppe> TheMue: as does the TestChangePasswordChanging tests
[17:28] <TheMue> rogpeppe: I'll pull a clean trunk.
[17:30] <rogpeppe> interesting, the jujud tests take 20.941s against tip (ish) and 41.8s against go 1.0.2
[17:32] <hazmat> fwereade, re previous discussion on charms and relation names. my concern is that this is a change being made which breaks dozens of charms with no benefit since the charms are logically self-consistent, its juju thats imposing the implicit relation which is not addressable by the charm anyways. so in that respect there is no conflict. ie what's the scenario where this is a problem. else this is just breakage for purity.
[17:33] <fwereade> hazmat, it opens the door to relations that cannot be expressed unambiguously
[17:33] <fwereade> hazmat, you can't specify a relation over juju-info between two charms that add their own juju-info relations
[17:34] <fwereade> hazmat, rare but real; just like the run-wrong-hooks problem
[17:34] <hazmat> fwereade, the implicit is always over provide not on require. we match on interface names not on relation names. the implicit provide is not addressable
[17:35]  * hazmat tries to restate for clarity
[17:35] <fwereade> hazmat, `juju add-relation foo:juju-info bar:juju-info` -- if both define their own juju-infos in addition to the implicit ones, what relation are we trying to create?
[17:35] <hazmat> fwereade, its forbidden to provide juju-info
[17:35] <hazmat> so its quite explicit in that case
[17:36] <fwereade> hazmat, everything provides juju-info...
[17:36] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Now a fresh trunk, doing a go test -gocheck.v in cmd/jujud shows no panic now but lets the password changes fail. :/
[17:36] <hazmat> fwereade, exactly.. and its only the providing side that we need to restrict
[17:36] <robbiew> I'm all for open dialogue , but maybe a hangout would improve communication on this subject ;)
[17:36] <rogpeppe> TheMue: the password changes tests are in state, no?
[17:36] <fwereade> hazmat, in the example above, both are requires
[17:36] <TheMue> rogpeppe: No, all in cmd/jujud
[17:37] <fwereade> hazmat, what should that command do?
[17:37] <fwereade> hazmat, if it's ok for charms to have require relations named juju-info, and both charms do, that command is ambiguous
[17:38] <fwereade> hazmat, I know it's breakage; I know it's annoying; but I believe that it is *already* broken
[17:38] <rogpeppe> TheMue: ah yes. it all passes for me.
[17:39] <TheMue> rogpeppe: In a fresh pulled trunk?
[17:39] <rogpeppe> TheMue: yes
[17:40] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Hmm, I'm using go 1.0.3. And you?
[17:40] <rogpeppe> TheMue: tip and 1.0.2
[17:41] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i'll try against 1.0.3, but i don't think it'll make a difference
[17:42] <TheMue> rogpeppe: No, I don't think so too. Maybe I have to update mgo.
[17:42] <rogpeppe> TheMue: possibly - i just tried that
[17:43] <rogpeppe> TheMue: if it still fails then, try printing out the passwords that are being set, and the password and entity name being used to connect to the state.
[17:43] <hazmat> fwereade, that's pretty convincing from a purity perspective. in practice its quite odd, akin to a subordinate with a subordinate relation.
[17:44] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Uuugh, ok, but have to find out where I have to do that so that it makes sense.
[17:44] <rogpeppe> TheMue: see the SetPassword methods in state, and the state.Open function
[17:46] <hazmat> ie. its only already broken if its already broken ;-)
[17:46] <fwereade> hazmat, I agree it's a bit odd, but I still have a small part of my brain that wants to charm some sort of automated penetration testing tool (consuming juju-info for private-address), and I think that opens the door
[17:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you've got a LGTM
[17:47] <hazmat> fwereade, and why would that be a problem?
[17:47] <hazmat> fwereade, because its non subordinate attaching to subordinate?
[17:48] <hazmat> via juju-info
[17:48] <hazmat> the typical non subordinate juju-info usage i use for examples is a dns provider for units
[17:49] <fwereade> hazmat, even better then -- my point is that once we have someone using implicit juju-info globally we're in danger of hitting that case in practice
[17:50] <hazmat> fwereade, we can disallow it explicitly for non subordinates without hosing the extant charms
[17:51] <fwereade> hazmat, that's two explicit workarounds now... I'm not convinced that this is a better way forward than a staged migration to something that works without hacks
[17:51] <hazmat> the only charms we can fix are those that are owned by charmers..
[17:52] <fwereade> hazmat, incidentally, what's the situation re charm upgrade sanity in pyjuju?
[17:52] <hazmat> the rest die or we fork forward
[17:52] <fwereade> hazmat, eg if v2 of a charm no longer has relation foo
[17:53] <fwereade> hazmat, sorry derail
[17:53] <fwereade> hazmat, can I point you to the docs, all the same?
[17:53] <fwereade> hazmat, https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/implicit-relations.html
[17:53] <hazmat> fwereade, the relation would still be extant
[17:54] <fwereade> hazmat, "Implicit relationships are named in the reserved the juju-* namespace."
[17:55] <hazmat> fwereade, i'm aware of the docs and the intent, again my concern is breaking dozens of charms
[17:56] <fwereade> hazmat, and my concern is that layering on the special cases will end up hurting us more in the long run
[17:58] <hazmat> fwereade, the docs btw also provide an example of what your saying should be illegal, look at the rsyslog metadata
[17:58] <fwereade> hazmat, I think that's invalidated by the preceding "The charm author should not declare the juju-info relation and is provided here only as an example."
[17:58] <hazmat> fwereade, your taking that out of context.. provides vs. requires
[17:59] <hazmat> fwereade, the rsyslog metadata is in the next section
[17:59] <hazmat> fwereade, the problem is isn't with declaring the provides juju-info.. that
[17:59] <hazmat> that's not allowed anywhere.
[17:59] <fwereade> hazmat, that's not how I read it -- but, yeah, maybe arguing from the authority of these docs either way is somewhat weak :)
[18:00]  * rogpeppe is off for the night. see y'all tomorrow.
[18:00] <fwereade> gn rogpeppe
[18:01] <fwereade> hazmat, I feel we're at something of an impasse... we each understand the other's perspective but still think our own should win ;p
[18:02] <hazmat> fwereade, i'm okay with losing, as long as we figure the way and resources to work  forward on the charms
[18:05] <hazmat> fwereade,  otoh i don't see the two workarounds offered as inherently problematic given the special case nature where this is an issue
[18:05] <hazmat> fwereade, are you up for tabling till niemeyer can chime in?
[18:06] <fwereade> hazmat, yeah, absolutely
[18:07] <fwereade> hazmat, I'm doubtless overvaluing code clarity vs charmer convenience to some degree, but I can't tell how much ;)
[18:07] <fwereade> hazmat, perhaps because I don't have a clear picture of just how much inconvenience it will cause
[18:08] <hazmat> fwereade, its not a charmer convenience, its breaking working software..
[18:09] <fwereade> hazmat, I think we can find a path that doesn't break anything so long as the charms provide a sane upgrade path
[18:11] <fwereade> hazmat, and I favour that primarily because it gives us a way to consign the difficulty to the dustbin of history, rather than carrying it forward forever -- but, yeah, consider it shelved :)
[18:13] <hazmat> fwereade, cool
[19:57] <hazmat> does anybody know a good full text search lib for go.. not finding much by way of googling for such


[00:02] <MarkDude> http://www.gidgetkitchen.org/ has new content, and the wiki no longer has ads for Russian viagra, yay
[00:03] <seidos> my website is down...i need to find some cash so i can afford some hosting
[00:04] <seidos> i asked a friend, but he hasn't replied, so i don't think he's a big fan of the idea.  well, he might still be thinking it over i guess
[00:18] <seidos> hmmm, i think a non-profit that does work for donations would be cool
[00:35] <dragon> MarkDude: that looks like the same old wordpress
[00:35] <dragon> with new content, yes
[01:59] <jdeslip> nhaines: How do you like your G2 compared to the N1?
[02:59] <nhaines> jdeslip: it's a bit heavier, slightly thicker. Great keyboard and faster response! I'm thrilled with it.
[03:15] <biosshadow> dragon i work in 3003 bunker hill lane
[03:21] <MarkDude> dragon, it is
[03:21] <MarkDude> last update was march
[04:18] <dragon> biosshadow: alright, I'm at 2421 Mission College Blvd.
[04:19] <dragon> outofjungle is in middle of those two places
[05:56] <biosshadow> ahh ok
[06:50] <MarkDude> aaditya, ping
[06:50] <dragon> MarkDude: pong
[06:55] <dragon> ಠ_ಠ
[07:09] <MarkDude> Sorry relatives from down south
[07:10] <MarkDude> Distracted
[18:04] <MarkDude> Happy Turkey Day to most of you
[18:04] <MarkDude> For the rest, Happy Tofu if you happen to be vegetarians
[18:04] <akk> gobble gobble
[18:06]  * MarkDude has relatives visting here, they are sleeping now- we will be headed to see more relatives in Santa Cruz
[18:06] <MarkDude> Meeting some new in-laws
[18:07] <MarkDude> What sort of people call t wish a happy thanksgiving at 9 am?
[18:08]  * MarkDude 's cousin is not to happy about that
[18:08] <akk> Seems a bit extreme.
[18:08] <MarkDude> Yes it is
[18:08] <MarkDude> akk can you see this page? http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/fifthpillar/hackergotchis/
[18:09] <akk> "Sorry, no posts matched your criteria."
[18:26] <MarkDude> Hmmm
[18:27] <MarkDude> akk can you try again?
[18:28] <akk> Ah, now I see pictures of some guy who keeps changing his facial hair style. :)
[18:29] <MarkDude> Yep, thats my gotchis I have so far
[18:29] <akk> I think I see why the fu manchu one looks "mean" -- it's like a big frown compared to the others.
[18:29]  * MarkDude was thinking I look more contemplative than anything
[18:30] <MarkDude> Then again I keep hearing I look like a biker or a made-man
[20:19] <biosshadow-m> Hello
[22:56] <pleia2> awww, maybe next year I do thanksgiving at the sf zoo! http://www.flickr.com/photos/sfzoo/sets/72157625467729768/
[22:56] <pleia2> lemurs with thanksgiving noms :)
[22:57] <nhaines> Heh, cute!


[07:54] <vish> thorwil: got access now, will read it soonish :)
[07:55] <vish> thorwil: btw, just browsed and thats some massive effort you put into it :)
[08:16] <vish> heh, the first comment was exactly what i thought , it seemed so similar to the gap one ;p
[15:03] <coz_> hey guys
[20:58] <miloshadzic> Hi guys. Is there a list of colors used in the new light themes somwhere?
[21:00] <vish> miloshadzic: if you open the gtkrc you can see the color specified
[21:01] <vish> but no, there isnt a list per-se
[21:01] <miloshadzic> I was hoping that there was an official list, something akin to the "Tango palette". Thanks anyway :)
[21:06] <miloshadzic> Hmm, I can't find the aubergine anywhere :(
[21:06] <vish> miloshadzic: there is no aubergine in the themes..
[21:09] <miloshadzic> Yes, I know. To clarify my previous question: I'm looking for colors used in ubuntu. I realize that I have clarified nothing with that sentence. There was a post on OMGUbuntu to create new themes for GEdit that would match Ambiance and Radiance, I'm trying to help out
[21:10] <miloshadzic> Link to post: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/02/help-ubuntu-11-04-by-making-an-ambiance-theme-for-gedit/
[21:13] <vish> ah!
[21:14] <vish> miloshadzic: you have the hex colors in the brand guidelines
[21:15] <vish> miloshadzic: see the link in topic..
[21:16] <miloshadzic> Thanks, that exactly what I needed :)
[21:16] <vish> :)


[06:39] <idmbe> Hello, i try to register channel under the ubuntu project name it is not registered but there is bot stuck there


[22:27] <AssociateX> gld1982ltd, what is your card?
[22:27] <aristidesfl> bekks help?
[22:28] <BrutusRex> How can I tell if that process is even doing anything?
[22:28] <BrutusRex> Top is using the most cpu
[22:28] <BrutusRex> When I look
[22:28] <AssociateX> gld1982ltd, see what zivley posted on that thread, that worked for me.
[22:29] <checkmate> oye @.@ this channel is one big mess
[22:29] <bekks> aristidesfl: You may want to read http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-4kb-sector-disks/ on the effects you've been warned about.
[22:29] <BrutusRex> How long should it take to do postprocessing on the kernel module?
[22:29] <GeeksOnHugs> quidnunc developer.android.com says: The Ubuntu package manager does not currently offer an Eclipse 3.6 version for download, so we recommend that you download Eclipse from eclipse.org (http://www.eclipse.org/ downloads/). A Java or RCP version of Eclipse is recommended.
[22:29] <GeeksOnHugs> the ubuntu software store doesn't indicated which version it is
[22:30] <checkmate> can anyone help me with rfkill? for some reason my wireless card is not working
[22:30] <bekks> GeeksOnHugs: It installs the version from the repo.
[22:30] <quidnunc> GeeksOnHugs: 3.7
[22:30] <gld1982ltd> AssociateX: i would rather not downgrade xorg. my card is geforce fx 5700 series.
[22:30] <GeeksOnHugs> hmmm
[22:30] <AssociateX> anyone want to trouble shoot a problem with flash not working in any browser even though.
[22:30] <GeeksOnHugs> so that means that's OK for me?
[22:30] <AssociateX> gld1982ltd, then look at the second post from the bottom.
[22:30] <bekks> GeeksOnHugs: Yes.
[22:30] <GeeksOnHugs> OK sweet ty
[22:31] <aristidesfl> I've got 1 gb of ram, on a headless 11.04. how big should my swap be?
[22:31] <quidnunc> GeeksOnHugs: Installing the Android dev environment is unpleasant to say the least
[22:31] <checkmate> so rfkill is not letting my card come up and ive tried every solution on the forum. Im about to install windows and say F to ubuntu forever.
[22:31] <bekks> aristidesfl: Same as RAM, when wanting to use suspend2disk.
[22:31] <AssociateX> gld1982ltd, posted by onecup2many
[22:31] <aristidesfl> bekks is 1gb too much?
[22:31] <aristidesfl> bekks is 2gb too much?
[22:32] <checkmate> .. ~.~ i REALLY dont want to reinstall ubuntu
[22:32] <BrutusRex> What are my options for getting my x display back?
[22:32] <bekks> aristidesfl: Depends on your requirements.
[22:32] <BrutusRex> I'd really like to use my laptop today.
[22:33] <aristidesfl> 1 gb should be enough
[22:33] <GeeksOnHugs> it says I need ia32-libs because I'm using a 64 bit ubuntu...what is ia32-libs...do I need to check if I already have it or is it allways safe to run apt-get
[22:34] <gld1982ltd> AssociateX: going to try it now.
[22:34] <KM0201> GeekAdmin: trying to install google earth?
[22:34] <bekks> GeeksOnHugs: It is safe to run apt-get install
[22:34] <gld1982ltd> thanks
[22:34] <GeeksOnHugs> kk ty
[22:34] <GeekAdmin> KM0201:  huh?
[22:34] <KM0201> oops GeeksOnHugs what are you trying to install again?
[22:34] <checkmate> can anyone help me with my rfkill problem?
[22:34] <KM0201> sorry GeekAdmin
[22:34] <GeekAdmin> KM0201:  hehe no problem
[22:34] <bekks> KM0201: eclipse, basically.
[22:34] <quidnunc> GeeksOnHugs: You can check if you have it by running "dpkg -l ia32-libs" but it is always safe to try to install it again (it will tell you it is already installed)
[22:35] <GeeksOnHugs> thanks quidnunc...i ran it, it has it already...is there a good web page that documents all the command line repository stuff related to apt-get
[22:35] <bekks> GeeksOnHugs: There is a man page explaining all options in detail.
[22:36] <checkmate> okay im going to reinstall ubuntu
[22:36] <checkmate> thanks for nothing channel
[22:37] <GeeksOnHugs> man page?
[22:37] <GeeksOnHugs> manual?
[22:37] <karthee_> Hi I am getting the error ' Could not connect to ceng-lrepo-lp1:80' while trying to install anything. can I get some help on this ?
[22:37] <bekks> GeeksOnHugs: Yes, a manual that is already installed.
[22:37] <GeeksOnHugs> where do I find this manual bekks
[22:37] <GeeksOnHugs> I just searched (I think)
[22:38] <ActionParsnip> karthee_: do you use a proxy for web access
[22:38] <bekks> GeeksOnHugs: You just type "man apt-get" and quit qith q, or just press enter or space to read more.
[22:39] <karthee_> ActionParsnip: No I don't use proxy for web accesss. But the system is in our company and I guess there is an internal mirror
[22:39] <karthee_> ActionParsnip: not sure how to check it
[22:39] <CIDR> Is there any reason I can't get my onboard MGA GE200eW working with my geforce 220?  The geforce 220 will work, or the MGA will work, but not both at the same time.  Any ideas on this?
[22:40] <karthee_> ActionParsnip: http://pastebin.com/bwhATbmk
[22:40] <omarx> hi
[22:40] <ActionParsnip> karthee_: if you edit /etc/apt/apt.conf   is the proxy listed there. Also if you you run:  echo $http_proxy; echo $ftp_proxy    does it output anythig?
[22:40] <omarx> i have new ubuntu and i wont to install vmware
[22:41] <omarx> i downloaded it fron vmware site but its text format
[22:41] <omarx> how i can install it
[22:41] <ActionParsnip> !vmware | omarx
[22:41] <MonkeyDust> omarx  maybe try vbox
[22:42] <omarx> but its not working virtualbox
[22:42] <omarx> i have frez when i install xp
[22:43] <MonkeyDust> omarx  i use vbox, so it does work, what happens when you try
[22:43] <omarx> when install be 34% its will not working any more
[22:43] <ActionParsnip> omarx: the guide ubottu gave will help
[22:43] <omarx> i mean when i install xp
[22:44] <omarx> ok
[22:44] <omarx> ther is any program
[22:44] <ActionParsnip> !virtual
[22:44] <omarx> onther one :( ?
[22:45] <omarx> QEmu is the good
[22:45] <MonkeyDust> omarx  is your virtual disk big enough? i use win xp in virtual box, with 20GB
[22:47] <Pecker> !VMware
[22:47] <AssociateX> I installed blackbox just for the heck of it, flash still doesn't work.
[22:48] <L3top> !lightspark | AssociateX, I would bail on flash and give that a try.
[22:48] <L3top> erg
[22:48] <L3top> !info lightspark | AssociateX, I would bail on flash and give that a try.
[22:49] <aristidesfl> used mke2fs to create ext4 file system, what to use to create swap?
[22:49] <AssociateX> L3top, right on, I install it right now
[22:49] <jagginess> aristidesfl, just use parted/gparted..
[22:50] <L3top> AssociateX: sudo apt-get remove flashplugin-installer while you are at it...
[22:50] <L3top> AssociateX: you are not going to be WORSE off... and it is Open Source...
[22:50] <aristidesfl> jagginess parted said it was not a good ideas to use it in order to create file systesm
[22:50] <AssociateX> L3top, will lightspark automagically do everything the flashplugin was supposed to do?
[22:51] <L3top> everything is a really strong word AssociateX. It is a reverse engineer of sue happy closed source software. It does "ok"
[22:51] <AssociateX> L3top, thank you
[22:53] <eph3meral> ActionParsnip, isn't Cedega deprecated?
[22:53] <L3top> AssociateX: should play youtube and stuff... might not get all of the advertizing you are "supposed" to... lol
[22:53] <eph3meral> i thought that project was/had-been dead for a couple years
[22:53] <OerHeks> AssociateX, else you could try, is enable html5 > http://www.youtube.com/html5
[22:54] <eph3meral> last I saw, on their web page they were like "hey, here's some bland brick buiding outside of ontario, cool huh?"
[22:54] <eph3meral> and, that... was it
[22:54] <L3top> AssociateX: strongly recommend OerHeks recommendation as well... which will do... a lot... but for now a lot of the world is on flash. Hulu desktop is simply not going to work, etc...
[22:55] <AssociateX> OerHeks, that's fine for youtube, but the facebook photo uploader for lots of photos is flash
[22:55] <AssociateX> oh well.
[22:55]  * L3top cringes... not a strong expectation that will go
[22:55] <AssociateX> I'm going to go jogging for an hour, see you all later.
[22:56] <L3top> oh... you are healthy? I wouldn
[22:56] <L3top> t have tried to help knowing that
[22:56] <chimney> hello
[22:56] <L3top> I keed I keed. hello chimney.
[22:58] <i7c> is the netbeans c++ plugin not in the ubuntu packages? :-/
[22:58] <chimney> I want to script a script which returns if eth0 is up or down and a script which rund continuous ans returning "act" if act is on eth0. so now my question: where do I find the pipes or programs in ubuntu which are casting the up ans so on messages?
[22:59] <L3top> This is a generic linux question chimney... but I can probably give you something.
[22:59] <chimney> L3top: cool :)
[23:01] <DelphiWorld> hi
[23:01] <DelphiWorld> i'm trying kernel 3.5
[23:01] <DelphiWorld> ubuntu build
[23:01] <DelphiWorld> but after setting up 3.5
[23:01] <FloodBot1> DelphiWorld: Please don't flood; use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste; don't use Enter as punctuation.
[23:01] <DelphiWorld> i lose all my interfaces
[23:02] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: kernel 3.5 isn't suitable for Precise
[23:02] <DelphiWorld> Shut up FloodBot1
[23:02] <chimney> DelphiWorld: are you a fan of delhpi O.O?
[23:02] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: try hitting enter less
[23:02] <DelphiWorld> ActionParsnip: only testing
[23:02] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: I'd say the test failed
[23:02] <OerHeks> DelphiWorld, we would have known the answer.
[23:02] <DelphiWorld> :-)
[23:03] <MonkeyDust> DelphiWorld  result of the test: you lose all your interfaces
[23:03] <DelphiWorld> chimney: i was but linux touk me out
[23:03] <ActionParsnip> chimney: you can see if the interface has an IP, or do a ping test via the interface and if you get a reply, it is up :)
[23:03] <L3top> chimney: cat /sys/class/net/eth0/operstate  will give you up or down... what do you wanna do from there?
[23:03] <DelphiWorld> ifconfig
[23:03] <DelphiWorld> no eth0 and no eth1
[23:03] <altan> ActionParsnip, I chose this wireless card; what do you think? http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cid=9531388443493362862
[23:03] <DelphiWorld> all drivers gone
[23:03] <OerHeks> but if you really like to test, Alfa II is out, support in #ubuntu+1 only >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2012-June/000965.html
[23:03] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: what are you testing the kernel for?
[23:04] <DelphiWorld> ActionParsnip: DVB drivers;-)
[23:04] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: does the dvb work?
[23:04] <DelphiWorld> ActionParsnip: no, allmost all drivers gone!
[23:04] <chimney> ActionParsnip: ok how do I fix it with self-coded tap devices?
[23:04] <chimney> L3top: ok I'll try it :) thx
[23:05] <harovali> hi ! I'm using ubuntu 12.04 happily , and I can print for instance from libreoffice calc without a problem. However,neither from evince, nor from mozilla (f.i. a mail from gmail) does the printer print, abeit it lets me select correctly the Samsung SCX-4623-Series laser printer.  What might be missing ?  (printer either plain text nor a .pdf file from the lpr command line utility does print, although it does not give an erro
[23:05] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: I'd say the test was a resounding failure. Probably because the kernel is not made for Precise
[23:06] <DelphiWorld> ActionParsnip: ;)
[23:06] <ActionParsnip> altan: those centrino devices have issues connecting to n networks most times
[23:07] <ActionParsnip> DelphiWorld: could try Quantal liveCD, see ifit works there
[23:07] <DelphiWorld> ActionParsnip: thank you rocking DUDE
[23:09] <DelphiWorld> ActionParsnip: finaly my friend have a console access to the server!
[23:10] <ibodi> hey bazhang -- i tested connect to hidden wireless. still not working however found my home wireless in the hidden area
[23:11] <ibodi> bazhang: i can connect to neighbour's wireless
[23:11] <chimney> L3top: ok works fine :) is there also a file that indicates that dhcp ist working?
[23:11] <SomeDamnBody> Hey, I did sudo purge python2.7
[23:11] <SomeDamnBody> and it uninstalled a lot of dependencies that I think some other packages that I have installed depend on
[23:12] <SomeDamnBody> how do I make sure that I remove as much of python2.7 as possible, but still not break anything else?
[23:12] <ActionParsnip> SomeDamnBody: python is a large part of the OS dude
[23:12] <chimney> else I can check if an ip is received and ping google.com for proofing internet access :)
[23:12] <SomeDamnBody> ActionParsnip, crap
[23:12] <SomeDamnBody> can I repair it do you think?
[23:12] <ActionParsnip> SomeDamnBody: you could reinstall the packages possibly
[23:12] <ibodi> my wireless: win7 found and connect; ubuntu only found neighbours wirless, and works,; ubuntu not found home wireless, and not working
[23:12] <DelphiWorld> how to update console on grub ?
[23:13] <dzup> whats going on
[23:13] <dzup> irc server just quit on me
[23:14] <ActionParsnip> ibodi: in device manager disable the power management as well as the wifi ability to wake up the OS
[23:14] <usr13> DelphiWorld: You may need to re-phrase your question.
[23:15] <DelphiWorld> usr13: i want to be able to see / view grub using RS232
[23:15] <nydel> how to install a unicode font in ubuntu?
[23:15] <GeeksOnHugs> DelphiWorld what does Delphi refer to in your name?
[23:15] <DelphiWorld> jeeksBorland Delphi ;)
[23:16] <chimney-away> DelphiWorld: Do you realy
[23:16] <GeeksOnHugs> bekks, quidnunc, ActionParsnip ... when I launch eclipse (installed from repo) it fails and refers me to this log file: http://pastebin.com/Qk2y43kc
[23:16] <ibodi> ActionParsnip: where how ?
[23:16] <chimney-away> DelphiWorld: like Delphi?
[23:16] <GeeksOnHugs> I'm a delphi developer
[23:16] <GeeksOnHugs> :)
[23:16] <DelphiWorld> i stoped it chimney-away
[23:16] <GeeksOnHugs> 17 years delphi, just switched to android development
[23:17] <aristidesfl> what is the partition id for?
[23:17] <ActionParsnip> ibodi: in windows in device manager...
[23:17] <GeeksOnHugs> no longer borland though...embarcadero delphi heh
[23:17] <nydel> ActionParsnip: point me at installing a unicode font please?
[23:18] <usr13> DelphiWorld: Well, not sure how to see / view grub, but there is /boot/grub/grub.cfg
[23:18] <ibodi> ActionParsnip: windows? i m in ubuntu
[23:18] <chimney-scared> GeeksOnHugs: ok now thats surprising. my last delphi program was 70000+ lines and then my head exploded :)
[23:18] <ibodi> ActionParsnip: dashboard > power ?
[23:18] <GeeksOnHugs> lol
[23:19] <chimney-scared> GeeksOnHugs: whats your help to not become curious?
[23:19] <GeeksOnHugs> my last project in delphi was huge...an EMR package.    BZ Channel!
[23:21] <GeeksOnHugs> so can anyone help me with my eclipse istall...it fails and refers me to this file: http://pastebin.com/Qk2y43kc
[23:21] <bssmx> I can't haha
[23:22] <davkbod-ld> Query - How do you change the display of a file window from Icons to list?
[23:22] <davkbod-ld> (list view)
[23:22] <chimney-scared> davkbod-ld: OK i'M leaving ^^ bye o/ DelphiWorld: *cheers*
[23:22] <L3top> chimney-scared: dhcpu=$(/etc/init.d/dhcp3-server status | grep 'is running'); if [[ -n dhcpu ]]; then echo "oi oi oi"; else echo "oh poo"; fi
[23:22] <DelphiWorld> hahaha chimney-scared
[23:23] <DelphiWorld> chimney-scared: you do delphi too?
[23:23] <L3top> chimney-scared: a lot going on here... sorry for delay
[23:24] <chimney-scared> DelphiWorld: not anymore ^^ is there an delhpi cpmpiler for linux?
[23:24] <chimney-scared> L3top: thanks a lot :)
[23:24] <chimney-scared> L3top: no problem :)
[23:24] <DelphiWorld> chimney-scared: gone... i allready stoped delphiying;)
[23:25] <chimney-scared> I know a person who works web sites, internet foo and databases with delphi 5 & 7
[23:25] <chimney-scared> its really scary
[23:25] <chimney-scared> o.O
[23:26] <johwes> i cannot get up my dom0 console in xencenter, all vms console works fine.. ubuntu/xcp  anyone got a clue?
[23:26] <L3top> chimney-scared: DelphiWorld try /join #ubuntu-offtopic for chitchat :)
[23:26] <davkbod-ld> Query - How do you change the display of a file window from Icons to list view?
[23:27] <chimney-scared> L3top: :P ok bye :)
[23:27] <DelphiWorld> L3top: layer3 top ? :-P
[23:27] <chimney-scared> DelphiWorld: lets go, this channel is to serious to chitchat :D
[23:29]  * DelphiWorld yel at L3top
[23:29] <\3TATUK> $ lspci -v -s 00:02.0|grep Memory
[23:29] <\3TATUK> 	Memory at e4400000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=1M]
[23:29] <\3TATUK> 	Memory at d0000000 (64-bit, prefetchable) [size=256M]
[23:29] <\3TATUK> ^Does that seem correct? (Only 1M for the first address [of my video card]?)
[23:29] <FloodBot1> \3TATUK: Please don't flood; use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste; don't use Enter as punctuation.
[23:31] <L3top> \3TATUK: lspci -nn | grep VGA
[23:32] <DelphiWorld> http://paste.debian.net/176870/
[23:33] <OerHeks> \3TATUK, the 1 m seems like the videorom to me.
[23:33] <ActionParsnip> GeeksOnHugs: have you asked in the #eclipse channel?
[23:33] <\3TATUK> L3top: 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (primary) [8086:2a02] (rev 0c)
[23:35] <L3top> What the heck is that
[23:35] <L3top> oh
[23:35] <L3top> sorry
[23:35] <L3top> Ignore
[23:35] <\3TATUK> Yeah it's pretty crap
[23:35] <L3top> Yes. I would expect that.
[23:37] <GeeksOnHugs> didn't know it existed thanks actionparsnip
[23:37] <L3top> \3TATUK: strongly recommend installing i965-va-driver
[23:37] <KickMeElmo> If anyone's got a moment, I'm having what appears to be a classic issue with getting 7.1 sound from a PCIe Radeon HD 5450 on Ubuntu 12.04.
[23:37] <L3top> Not bad at all really... in Linux... intel tends to rock out with its thing out.
[23:38] <DelphiWorld> good ubuntu enlighted night
[23:39] <yafit> hey, can anyone help me fix screen resultions? it wont detect all of the supported ones and im stuck with 1200x765 kinda annoying.
[23:39] <KickMeElmo> Anyone familiar with surround sound issues?
[23:40] <L3top> !anyone | KickMeElmo
[23:41] <yafit> Does anyone :)
[23:41] <KickMeElmo> Heh. Think I already mentioned. Can't get >2.0 channel audio over HDMI.
[23:42] <KickMeElmo> I'd like to be able to get 7.1 going, but I've had zero luck searching about for answers.
[23:42] <rgb247> hello everyone
[23:42] <L3top> KickMeElmo: sudo aplay -l
[23:42] <L3top> KickMeElmo: please pastebin that
[23:42] <L3top> KickMeElmo: dont dump it in here
[23:42] <rgb247> how it's possible to connect with file browser via SSH port and do a 'sudo' command before I save? else, I receiver an error that's tell me I don't have enough permissions
[23:42] <altan> Is it possible to install Windows AFTER having Ubuntu as your only OS?
[23:43] <rgb247> I need to edit something, it's hard to edit it via terminal
[23:43] <altan> rgb247, trying sudo gedit
[23:43] <altan> rgb247, 'sudo gedit 'file''
[23:43] <rgb247> altan is a remote host
[23:43] <MonkeyDust> altan  yes, but you will have to repair grub
[23:44] <altan> rgb247, do you have sftp access to said server?
[23:44] <rgb247> yes
[23:44] <jerry_l> hello room
[23:45] <rgb247> altan: yes, I have
[23:45] <altan> rgb247, could you not edit it through sftp with an ftp client?
[23:45] <jerry_l> i was hoping that someone knew about the wireless a b g n stuff..
[23:45] <rgb247> altan: can I edit it with te default tool that come with ubuntu?
[23:45] <rgb247> I only need to type a "sudo" before I open the file
[23:46] <jerry_l> at work they say they have laptops that have 50Mhz wifi but wiki does not say much about 50Mhz..
[23:46] <SkippersBoss> altan https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DualBoot/Windows
[23:46] <altan> rgb247, you will need to connect via an ftp client and edit through that
[23:46] <KickMeElmo> Here, with some extra information: http://pastebin.com/6hSgK63S
[23:47] <rgb247> altan: can you suggest me an FTP client please?
[23:47] <denebeim> Hey any idea when all these crashes in 12.04 are going to stop?
[23:47] <altan> rgb247, you can look for one in the software center, I havn't had to use ftp on Ubuntu yet, however I used to use Cyberduck, which I'm not sure works
[23:48] <KickMeElmo> denebeim, mine went away by switching to Unity 2D. Can't say it'll fix yours, but it's worth a shot.
[23:48] <yafit> Can anyone post thier xorg.conf file?
[23:48] <jerry_l> oh there it is the wireless "N" 2.4/5ghz  5ghz is what i meant... my bad,. all good.
[23:48] <denebeim> and as far as FTP goes, I always liked ncftp
[23:48] <denebeim> sadly it decided that my nvidia card isn't accelerated already.
[23:48] <denebeim> which sucks, cause xbmc won't work.
[23:49] <GeekAdmin> Hi, is it possible to release my own version of Ubuntu?  It would have gnome classic, and come with extra programs that I could choose. Is something like this possible?
[23:49] <KickMeElmo> L3top, did you get the pastebin?
[23:49] <denebeim> You can't call it ubuntu, but other than that go for it.
[23:50] <denebeim> oooooo ipv6 address
[23:50] <L3top> no KickMeElmo... getting now
[23:50] <denebeim> I'm impressed
[23:51] <ActionParsnip> yafit: sure
[23:52] <ActionParsnip> yafit: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1065227/
[23:52] <L3top> KickMeElmo: does speaker-test -c 2 -t sine -l 1 -D hw:0,3   produce a tone?
[23:52] <KickMeElmo> Yes
[23:52] <L3top> That's good news. :)
[23:53] <ActionParsnip> GeekAdmin: you can remaster the ISO as you want, that's how the spinoff distros are made
[23:53] <KickMeElmo> I like to think so. I just haven't had any luck with the various methods I've found mention of in all my searching.
[23:54] <KickMeElmo> I should mention, I'm a self-taught linux user of long term. I know just enough to be dangerous, but may be missing some obvious details you'd think impossible to miss.
[23:54] <[Relic]> what's the best and most accurate way of full copying a drive to another?  just sudo cp * target/directory
[23:55] <altan> If I back up to UbuntuOne and screw something up while trying to make a dualboot, can I restore later?
[23:55] <ActionParsnip> [Relic]: use dd or you can use rsync
[23:55] <DCheck2> Hi I have been having flash rendering problems on my emachines t2692 running ubuntu 11.10, i have tried other versions of flash and using compizconfig to speed things up, is there anything else i can do, as i know its not my internet connection the site ran well on my old pc running vista
[23:55] <L3top> KickMeElmo: I am a self taught linux user of 2 years. You are in good company. Do you have pulse installed? Cause I only deal with alsa. Do you have an /etc/asound.conf ?
[23:56] <[Relic]> just trying to dump one drive onto the other as a backup and keep what is already there
[23:56] <KickMeElmo> I do have pulseaudio installed, yes. And no, there is no /etc/asound.conf.
[23:57] <KickMeElmo> I generally prefer alsa, but have gotten the impression ditching pulse is asking to be left behind at this point.
[23:57] <KickMeElmo> Not to mention, removing it removes the ubuntu-desktop package, and that sketches me out.
[23:57] <altan> Who is RandyTravis
[23:58] <L3top> Oh.. yeah... don't do that...   Action, checking.
[23:59] <L3top> KickMeElmo: I have to do a little research to apply the alsa settings to pulse. Typically pulse is installed to deal with the weirdness of alsa... which is all I really understand. Gonna take me a min.


[04:12] <est31> Hello.
[04:12] <est31> I'm a minetest developer.
[04:13] <est31> Recently there has been a release of an upstream library minetest uses, irrlicht
[04:13] <est31> that release has been ignored by debian, until now
[04:13] <est31> maybe they will continue to ignore it, idk
[04:13] <est31> is there a way to get the newest irrlicht release into ubuntu 16.10?
[04:14] <est31> Thanks to anyone replying.
[04:14] <est31> relevant links:
[04:14] <est31> https://qa.debian.org/cgi-bin/watch?pkg=irrlicht
[04:14] <est31> http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/?p=1575
[04:15] <est31> http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/i/irrlicht/irrlicht_1.8.3+dfsg1-2_changelog
[04:15] <est31> Current state makes me really sad, as there are bugfixes inside the library which the users need!
[04:15] <est31> s/library/release/
[04:25] <Son_Goku> est31, you need to complain to debian
[04:25] <Unit193> Looks like Julien Puydt did something on it just last month.
[04:25] <Son_Goku> irrlicht comes to ubuntu through the debian import/merge
[04:27] <Son_Goku> if the package in debian is updated quickly enough in unstable and testing, then it'll come to ubuntu 16.10 through the regular automatic import
[04:27] <est31> Son_Goku, no, because there is already a freeze in effect
[04:27] <est31> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianImportFreeze
[04:27] <Son_Goku> then you'll need to request an exception
[04:28] <est31> and what if debian doesn't update in time?
[04:28] <Son_Goku> file a bug in the irrlicht ubuntu package requesting it
[04:28] <Son_Goku> then you're stuck
[04:28] <Son_Goku> as a rule of thumb, ubuntu doesn't make packages
[04:28] <Son_Goku> nor does it generally accept any
[04:29] <Son_Goku> it's downstream from debian, and aside from some extraordinary cases, usually the debian and ubuntu packaging is managed upstream in debian
[04:29] <est31> testing requires stuff to be at least one month in unstable, right?
[04:30] <Son_Goku> normally yes
[04:30] <Son_Goku> however, being in unstable alone is usually enough
[04:30] <Son_Goku> as ubuntu is sourced from testing and unstable
[04:30] <est31> thats enough for updating?
[04:30] <Son_Goku> well, that, and you need to make a good case to the MOTU
[04:31] <est31> 1. only one dep -- minetest
[04:31] <est31> 2. only a bugfix release
[04:31] <Son_Goku> I'm not on the MOTU or an Ubuntu developer
[04:31] <Son_Goku> heck, I don't even use Ubuntu
[04:32] <Son_Goku> you need to file your request here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/irrlicht
[04:32] <Son_Goku> but only after debian is updated
[04:33] <est31> yes.
[04:33] <Son_Goku> good luck
[04:33] <est31> I just know that launchpad is not the medium I want to use so that stuff gets looked at in time
[04:33] <est31> its ... experience
[04:34] <est31> Son_Goku, what distro do you use?
[04:34] <Son_Goku> Fedora and Mageia
[04:35] <est31> Fedora and mageia have this issue as well
[04:35] <est31> https://pkgs.org/search/irrlicht
[04:35] <est31> but I know a mageia packager, I'll contact him as soon as I can reach him on irc
[04:36] <Son_Goku> Akien?
[04:36] <est31> yes :)
[04:36] <Son_Goku> heh
[04:36] <est31> how do you know
[04:36] <Son_Goku> send him an email
[04:37] <Son_Goku> Akien is the leader of the Mageia packagers
[04:37] <Son_Goku> as well as one of the members of the Mageia.Org council
[04:37] <est31> wow
[04:37] <Son_Goku> and... he sent me a bugfix for lugaru several years ago :)
[04:37]  * Son_Goku is the project admin for Lugaru
[04:38] <Son_Goku> he won't be back on IRC until the 26th, but he's available via email
[04:38] <Son_Goku><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:38] <est31> good to know
[04:38] <est31> thanks Son_Goku will write an email
[04:39] <Son_Goku> as for Fedora...
[04:39] <Son_Goku> irrlicht is maintained by Tom Calloway
[04:39] <Son_Goku> send him an email at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:39] <est31> i dont care about fedora
[04:39]  * Son_Goku shrugs
[04:39] <est31> minetest is borken on wayland
[04:39] <est31> fedora 25 ships with wayland per default
[04:39] <est31> they ignored it
[04:40] <Son_Goku> uhh
[04:40] <Son_Goku> only one desktop environment uses wayland by default
[04:40] <Son_Goku> that's gnome
[04:40] <est31> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1277165
[04:40] <Son_Goku> the rest of the desktops are using X
[04:41] <Son_Goku> also, wayland is not likely to remain on through the end of f25 development
[04:41] <est31> lets hope that.
[04:41] <Son_Goku> and they're not gutting X support either
[04:42] <Son_Goku> and it's also not being ignored, either
[04:42] <Son_Goku> there's well over a dozen bugs related to that problem
[04:42] <Son_Goku> it's going to get fixed as soon as the wayland folks agree on how to fix it
[04:43] <est31> the only part that needs fixing is xwayland
[04:43] <est31> at this point at least
[04:43]  * Son_Goku shrugs
[04:43] <est31> latest mutter stable release already has pointer locking, and confinement
[04:43] <Son_Goku> just remember not to be mean and spiteful to all the fedora users just because of the gnome people
[04:44] <Son_Goku> the community is much bigger than them
[04:44] <Son_Goku> and spot is a good guy
[04:44] <est31> okay, will drop him a mail
[04:45] <Son_Goku> :D
[04:45] <Son_Goku> we can all be friends, right? :)
[04:46] <est31> Son_Goku, sometimes its hard to be sympathetic to all parts of the open source ecosystem
[04:46] <est31> but you changed my mind about fedora at least
[04:46] <Son_Goku> :)
[04:47] <est31> (It was hard enough btw to convince irrlicht devs to do a release at all...)
[04:47] <est31> :)
[04:48] <pitti> Good morning
[04:59] <tsimonq2> o/ pitti, how are you? :)
[05:00] <pitti> tsimonq2: okayish, thanks (still have an annoying cold); how about you?
[05:02] <tsimonq2> aww get better soon
[05:02] <tsimonq2> I'm great :)
[07:08] <Mirv> pitti: A server error occured. https://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/request.cgi?release=yakkety&arch=i386&package=unity8&trigger=ubuntu-system-settings%2F0.4%2B16.10.20160817.2-0ubuntu1
[07:19] <pitti> Mirv: hm, just worked for me
[07:19] <pitti> Mirv: the logs show an SSL timeout
[07:20] <pitti> so it appears to be spurious
[07:56] <Mirv> (thank you)
[08:23] <jamespage> slangasek, I've added aodh and barbican to the misc-servers seed so that they stick in main...
[08:49] <jamespage> hey archive admins - could ovn-controller-vtep and python3-openvswitch be demoted to universe please -  neither should be in main for now
[09:01] <pitti> jamespage: done (in y-proposed, the binaries only exist there)
[09:02] <caribou> xnox: did you get a chance to look at LP: #1611133 since dragan-s uploaded the status files ?
[09:05] <xnox> caribou, no. Just opened good/bad files, they do look weird. (I was not subscribed to the bug, hence didn't get email notifications)
[09:06] <jamespage> pitti, ta
[09:06] <caribou> xnox: looking at it atm; the amount of 'corrupted' files is surprizing > 1000 in one file
[09:07] <xnox> caribou, it does look bad. The diff between the two is not encouraging.
[09:07] <xnox> i really hope it is not actually dpkg bug, but something/somewhere else that tries to parse status file. Because trivial precise debootstrap + upgrade did not reproduce this issue.
[09:08] <caribou> xnox: I'm looking at precise's code to get a hang of dpkg's workflow
[09:09] <xnox> the installation appears to be fairly bog standard: ubuntu-standard/minima/desktop
[09:10] <xnox> caribou, first step can you reproduce the issue reliably? E.g. bootstrap/install from .0 iso, or just release archive. Install ubuntu-desktop. Upgrade to latest dpkg, then upgrade the world, then spot broken status file.
[09:10] <xnox> if yes, buggy dpkg / libdpkg-perl or some such, otherwise something somewhere else.
[09:11] <caribou> xnox: that'd be the easy way out ;-) it happens in an environment where Landscape Dedicated Service is in use
[09:11] <xnox> caribou, wait a minute - does landscape-* stuff parses and/or writes and/or touches internal dpkg status file at all?
[09:11] <caribou> xnox: so the archive is not our public archive but an LDS provided one built with reprepro
[09:12] <xnox> is there a way to tell from the status files of any custom packages at all?
[09:12] <caribou> xnox: I wouldn't think so; the broken status file is at the receiving end (i.e. the client)
[09:12] <caribou> xnox: let me check on a few broken package
[09:12] <xnox> somehow i would have thought the problem would be spotted / be more widespread than just one deployment if it was dpkg.
[09:14] <xnox> however ubuntu-minimal description is borked.
[09:17] <caribou> xnox: I see 650 of them, all standard Ubuntu packages
[09:18] <caribou> xnox: http://paste.ubuntu.com/23077770/
[09:49] <caribou> xnox: FYI, the list I pasted is wrong, there are less corrupted packages than listed
[09:50] <xnox> caribou, i pasted a diff with a lot of context to the bug report.
[09:50] <xnox> it seems to show a few, and i guess we only need one package to be corrupted. E.g. "ubuntu-minimal" is corrupted.
[12:37] <flexiondotorg> I removed mate-hud from the ubuntu-mate-core seeds and meta package last week. It needs more time to bake.
[12:38] <flexiondotorg> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mate-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-mate.yakkety/revision/113
[12:39] <flexiondotorg> But it is still being seeded via germinate and is present in todays daily-live ISO.
[12:39] <flexiondotorg> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu-mate.yakkety/core
[12:39] <flexiondotorg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-mate-meta/+changelog
[12:39] <flexiondotorg> Have I overlooked something to ensure a package is no longer seeded in the Ubuntu MATE 16.10 images?
[12:44] <sitter> popey: anyone from snappy coming to akademy/qtcon and possibly staying for discussions (Sept 5-8)? should we register a time slot?
[12:47] <popey> sitter: i don't think there's snappy specific devs at qtcon/akademy. I think we do have *some* people going. Will find out who.
[12:55] <cjwatson> flexiondotorg: Bodged for now, but the problem is apparently that somebody deleted lp:~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.vivid and that broke the update-seeds cron job.  Will need to investigate ...
[12:56] <cjwatson> (I might just push my latest version back up.  Old seed branches aren't supposed to be deleted.)
[12:56] <flexiondotorg> cjwatson, Thanks for the feedback.
[13:04] <sitter> popey: I also got asked by a colleague who's working on plasma mobile whether someone from the touch team might be at qtcon :)
[13:25] <Odd_Bloke> I'm comparing the initramfs of a cloud instance and of my laptop (both on the same xenial kernel); per lsinitramfs my laptop's contains fsck whereas the cloud instance does not.  I can't work out where this difference is coming from, having examined /{etc,usr/share}/initramfs-tools.  Where should I be looking to find it?
[13:26] <pitti> Odd_Bloke: presumably because cloud instances disable fscking in fstab?
[13:27] <pitti> Odd_Bloke: see /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/fsck
[13:28] <pitti> s/?// (I know that cloud-init disable fscking partitions, and rightly so)
[13:28] <pitti> cloud instances, I mean (not sure if it's actually cloud-init)
[13:28] <Odd_Bloke> Aha, right.
[13:29] <Odd_Bloke> OK, that makes sense.
[13:30] <Odd_Bloke> Thanks!
[13:51] <cjwatson> flexiondotorg: aha, I found https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-gnome-dev/+junk/ubuntu-gnome.vivid.  No idea how it got there (I have an IP address for the change but that doesn't tell me a whole lot).  Moved back to https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-gnome.vivid where it belongs.
[13:57] <flexiondotorg> Thanks for that.
[15:00] <jbicha> cjwatson: I clicked the archive button for eol stuff at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-gnome-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ but I didn't otherwise move branches
[15:00] <jbicha> sorry, not archive, I changed the branch status to "abandoned"
[15:01] <cjwatson> jbicha: Yeah, Abandoned is fine, but somebody also changed the branch target to "Personal".  I changed it back
[15:02] <jbicha> hmm, now that I think about it, that IP address might be familiar then but I don't remember what I might have clicked :(
[15:24] <slangasek> jamespage: ok, thanks :)
[15:25] <jamespage> slangasek, np - need to teach coreycb how todo that :-)
[15:25] <jamespage> but he's not around today
[15:25] <jamespage> ddellav, hey - I 'seeded' aodh and barbican packages - I'll grab you this week to explain how and what that means...
[15:29] <xnox> "C++11 requires a space between literal and string macro" c++ FTBFS of the day.
[15:50] <ddellav> jamespage ok, sounds good
[16:24] <seb128> Laney, pitti, do we have a tag for systemd user session bugs?
[16:26] <Laney> not that I know
[16:27] <seb128> hum, k
[16:27] <seb128> Laney, bug #1615726 just for info then
[16:27] <Laney> feel free to invent one
[16:30] <seb128> Laney, pitti, I tagged it systemd-user-session
[16:34] <Laney> seb128: close: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=systemd-session
[16:34] <Laney> :(
[16:34] <seb128> oh, urg, renaming it!
[16:35] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[16:39] <seb128> pitti, bug #1484027 seems to still be there/be back on xenial and yakkety, should I reopen that one or open a new bug?
[16:58] <seb128> k, enough for today, have a nice evening everyone!
[17:29] <pitti> seb128: right, I used that to correspond to our earlier systemd-boot tag
[17:34] <pitti> seb128: ah, and now I got the notification -- I'm subscribed to the tag
[17:34] <pitti> seb128: bonne soirée !
[17:34] <pitti> pour moi aussi
[17:45] <jbicha> cjwatson: I can confirm that germinate is working again for Ubuntu GNOME/yakkety
[18:14] <aladdin> Hi
[18:14] <aladdin> sorry to bother you
[18:15] <aladdin>  it is possible to install unity8 currently with Yakkety  daily from today ?
[18:15] <aladdin>  I got this error http://www.hastebin.com/jatizuraka.vhdl
[20:24] <cjwatson> jbicha: good good, thanks