[02:35] <Hobbsee> oh, ubotu hasn't been updating the meetings, i'll bet.
[02:35] <Hobbsee> the 30/4 one has passed.
[04:22] <BunnyRevolution> i understand there is a meeting tomorrow.  what is the general order of business, and how does one get a chance to speak?
[04:23] <boredandblogging> BunnyRevolution: what meeting are you talking about specifically?
[04:23] <boredandblogging> community council?
[04:23] <BunnyRevolution> correct
[04:23] <boredandblogging> BunnyRevolution: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[04:30] <BunnyRevolution> i've reviewed the link, and it appears it is a open meeting with pre-selected participants, or i'm unable to find instructions for participation.  i've not attended an ubuntu meeting before.  is there another link i should be looking at for guidance?
[04:30] <boredandblogging> what is that you want to discuss?
[04:32] <Hobbsee> BunnyRevolution: it's in this channel, and anyone can talk, as long as they keep to the topic, and provide useful information.
[04:33] <BunnyRevolution> thank you for that information.  i'll be attending.
[04:34] <boredandblogging> BunnyRevolution: if you have something specific you want to discuss, add it under general agenda items
[07:15]  * RoAkSoAx by all
[10:52] <popey> @schedule
[10:52] <popey> doh, /me reads /topic
[11:45] <Daviey> @schedule london
[11:45] <Daviey>  < popey> doh, /me reads /topic
[11:45] <soren> :)
[11:53] <popey> Hah!
[11:53] <popey> Yo soren, you going to UDS? (have I asked you that already?)
[11:55] <soren> I am, and you have not.
[11:55] <soren> Not that I remember anyway.
[11:55] <soren> popey: I assume you are too?
[11:58] <popey> yes
[11:58] <soren> Cool
[11:58]  * soren makes a note to make sure not to get the hotel room under popey
[11:58] <popey> heheh
[11:58] <popey> it's Sladen you need to avoid ;)
[11:58] <soren> Uhuh..
[11:58] <soren> :)
[11:59] <dholbach> hi popey
[12:00] <popey> moo
[12:03] <ogra> popey, hey, did you notice the fresh classmate images on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/8.04/ ?
[12:14] <stgraber> soren: you don't want to be flooded this time ? :)
[12:14] <soren> stgraber: I'd rather not, no :)
[12:14] <soren> stgraber: It wasn't me the last time, though. I just remember the stories :)
[12:29] <popey> ooo no ogra
[12:30] <popey> was playing with the classmate just last night
[12:33]  * popey wgets
[15:53] <Andre_Gondim> !time
[16:03] <ikonia> t/opic
[16:03] <ikonia> oops
[16:06] <jdavies> @schedule
[16:13] <jdavies> @schedule
[16:15] <jdavies> and again..
[16:15] <jdavies> @schedule
[16:46] <stdin> @schedule
[16:47] <emgent> @schedule it
[16:47] <emgent> @schedulerome
[16:47] <emgent> @schedule rome
[16:47] <emgent> argh.
[16:48] <jussi01> @noe rome
[16:48] <jussi01> @now rome
[16:49] <Andre_Gondim> @now brazil
[16:49] <Andre_Gondim> @now são paulo
[16:49] <stdin> jussi01: link fixed to
[16:49] <Andre_Gondim> @now recife
[16:49] <jussi01> ok, dont abuse it
[16:50] <persia> @now error
[16:50] <persia> jussi01: Does that want to point somewhere else?
[16:50] <emgent> persia: lol
[16:52] <jussi01> persia: we are working on it currently;)
[16:52] <persia> Excellent :)
[16:52] <stdin> @now FakeTZ
[16:53] <persia> .msg ubottu helo
[16:53] <stdin> !hi | persia
[16:54] <persia> stdin: Almost, but not quite what I wanted :)
[16:54] <stdin> !-hello
[16:54] <stdin> same thing ;)
[19:23] <Andre_Gondim> !now recife
[19:24] <Andre_Gondim> @now recife
[19:59] <mantiena> hello all
[20:02] <sirex`> Hello mantiena :)
[20:06] <gnomefreak> @now
[20:06] <emgent> @now rome
[20:06] <sirex`> @now Vilnius
[20:08] <fdd> hello.
[20:08] <sabdfl> evening / afternoon / morning all
[20:08] <atoponce> afternoon
[20:09] <sabdfl> did i miss the TB at 19h00 UTC?
[20:09] <atoponce> haven't seen anything here..
[20:10] <mantiena> hi sabdfl
[20:10] <emgent> uhm
[20:10] <emgent> mantiena: little backspace?
[20:10] <emgent> hi sabdfl
[20:10] <RoAkSoAx> @now lima
[20:10] <mantiena> emgent: you see strange characters in my posts ?
[20:11] <RoAkSoAx> ubottu, not giving the exact hour!
[20:11] <atoponce> mantiena: tons of space before "hi sabdfl"
[20:11] <emgent> mantiena: not strange characters, only more backspace.
[20:11] <sirex`> mantiena: I see it too.
[20:11] <sabdfl> hi emgent, mantiena, atoponce
[20:11] <mantiena> this is pidgin from Ubuntu hardy bug
[20:12] <fdd> @now Bucharest
[20:12]  * mantiena will try to use Empathy
[20:13] <sirex`> Maybe some one knows, how can I connect all events from fridge.ubuntu.com/event to my Google Calendars? I tried to add iCal, but it fail.. :/
[20:13] <juliux> sabdfl, it is all ready possible to submit dates to your calender for october?
[20:13] <juliux> ;)
[20:14] <gnomefreak> juliux: you mean sirex` ?
[20:14] <mantiena> emgent, sirex`: do my posts look better now ?
[20:14] <beuno> sirex`, it's a known bug. We are trying to fix it though
[20:15] <atoponce> mantiena: your posts were fine, it was just the one
[20:15] <juliux> gnomefreak, i mean sabdfl;) we will have the second ubucon in october in germany;)
[20:15] <sirex`> mantiena: now they looks normaly :)
[20:15] <sabdfl> juliux: sure, not sure i will be able to make it, but it's always good to know what's on just in case
[20:16] <gnomefreak> juliux: ah
[20:17] <juliux> gnomefreak, from last year i know that it can't be to early;)
[20:17] <ogra> juliux, hannover this time ?
[20:17] <juliux> ogra, 80% göttingen;)
[20:17] <ogra> oooooh !!!!
[20:17] <juliux> ogra, so close enough for you;9
[20:17] <no0tic> @now
[20:17] <ogra> yeah, i could nearly walk
[20:17] <sirex`> sabdfl: there are plans for another ubucon in Vilnius in few weeks.. :)
[20:18] <juliux> ogra, but there is a bad news, it is two weeks bevor the 8.10 release :(
[20:18] <juliux> ogra, 17,18,19 october;)
[20:19] <ogra> juliux, my GF is freaking out in happiness that she finally has an opportunity to see all the phreax
[20:19] <ogra> juliux, noted
[20:19] <juliux> ogra, cool
[20:19] <ogra> if its that cloes to release i'll probably only make one day though
[20:20] <juliux> ogra, girlfriends at ubucon are difficult, since last ubucon my girlfriend want to come with me to all ubuntu/opensource events
[20:20] <ogra> but in any case better than last time
[20:20] <ogra> haha
[20:20] <juliux> ogra, we had to make the date fix bevor the release schedule was publik, and last year this weekend was the weekend after the release
[20:20] <juliux> if you want you can make a sprint at ubucon;9
[20:21] <juliux> you get a glass room so everybody can watch you
[20:21] <ogra> well, goettinen is surely a jewel worth to get some devs to see it
[20:21] <ogra> *goettingen
[20:22] <juliux> we will see who is coming;)
[20:22] <juliux> last year we had only one dev so if we get two this year everything is fine;)
[20:22]  * ogra wonders if thats the genral ubuntu tenor for this year ... we'll only go to beautiful places ... prague, goettingen ...
[20:23] <ogra> well, berlin is 3h by train
[20:23] <ogra> they have no excuse
[20:24] <juliux> i will drive by train to berlin
[20:24] <juliux> may is ubuntu travelling month;) 6 days uds, 2days ubuntuusers.de meeting, 6 days linuxtag;9
[20:24] <juliux> argh by car;)
[20:25] <ogra> i'll likely only do one or two days of linuxtag like last year
[20:25] <ogra> i'll run the ubuntu grill this time though ... so its likely towards the end again
[20:25] <juliux> saturday evening is ubuntu barbecue again
[20:25] <ogra> yep
[20:26] <juliux> sponsored by ubuntu deutschland e.v.;)
[20:26] <juliux> cool
[20:26] <ogra> oh, not the berlin LoCo ?
[20:26] <ogra> thats nice
[20:26] <juliux> they are not a loco;)
[20:26] <ogra> share the load :)
[20:26] <juliux> the will organise it but we will pay;9
[20:26] <ogra> cool
[20:26] <juliux> ubuntu berlin is a subgroup
[20:27] <ogra> they are quite loco somethmes though :)
[20:27] <juliux> pls not more splitting;)
[20:27] <ogra> especially if beer is involved
[20:28] <juliux> hehe
[20:28] <juliux> but we know that you need no beer;)
[20:28] <ogra> lol
[20:33] <juliux> Syntux_, do you try today to become an ubuntu member?
[20:33] <Syntux_> juliux, yes
[20:33] <juliux> Syntux_, +1
[20:33] <Syntux> juliux, woohaa!
[20:34] <juliux> Syntux, i read your posts on loco-contacts
[20:34] <Syntux> juliux, but why the +1 ? do you know me ?
[20:34] <Syntux> ah, lovely :-)
[20:34] <Syntux> btw, how many +1 one would need to get it?
[20:35] <juliux> Syntux, it is not my decision;) i am not a part of the community council
[20:35] <Syntux> ah so you can't even vote ?
[20:36] <juliux> i can only give you a testimonial
[20:36] <Syntux> juliux, great, I'm offering FREE PIZZA for wikinized testimonials LOL
[20:36] <Syntux> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Syntux
[20:36] <juliux> Syntux, sounds good, should i give you my address?
[20:38] <Syntux> juliux, yes please send it to jad @ my nickname dot net and if you don't live in the states then you have to supply me with any online pizza store in your country
[20:38] <juliux> Syntux, hehe
[20:38] <Syntux> heh
[20:38] <juliux> Syntux, if we meet at an uds you can sponsore me a pizza
[20:39] <Syntux> sure :D
[20:39] <Syntux> oh are you from germany ?
[20:39] <juliux> yeo
[20:40] <Syntux> man! your language is the hardest thing I ever encountered in my life!
[20:40] <juliux> hehe
[20:40] <juliux> i can understand you
[20:40] <Syntux> I thought Arabic Grammar was hard until I registered for German Course
[20:41] <boredandblogging> don't think the CC is doing member approvals anymore
[20:41] <boredandblogging> delegated to the regional membership councils
[20:41] <juliux> don't asked me about german grammar, i have no idea about it
[20:41] <Syntux> boredandblogging, always carrying the bad news; THOU SHALL STOP
[20:41] <Syntux> heh
[20:41] <stgraber> boredandblogging: indeed, the regional councils have their LP teams since a day or two
[20:41] <juliux> boredandblogging, are this councils allready founded? i didn't see a offical announcment
[20:41] <boredandblogging> stgraber: good to hear
[20:42] <Andre_Gondim> @now recife
[20:42] <boredandblogging> juliux: haven't seen any official word yet
[20:42] <stgraber> juliux: I have been added to a LP team and now have the right to approve/decline membership, so the teams are in place, the structure (meetings and stuff) aren't
[20:42] <juliux> stgraber, ok
[20:43] <stgraber> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-emea for the European one
[20:43] <Syntux> stgraber, then would you recommend heading to bed instead of waiting?
[20:44] <stgraber> IIRC the Community Council hasn't done membership approval last time because the regional councils were about to be created, so there will probably be no membership stuff today.
[20:44] <stgraber> that's just my opinion though :)
[20:45] <Syntux> nice, it was like BTW :-)
[20:45] <stgraber> "Starting 2008-04-15, membership applications will be handled by regional teams, delegated by the Community Council, as described at StreamlineMembershipApproval."
[20:45] <stgraber> from the CC wiki page
[20:45] <RoAkSoAx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards
[20:46] <fdd> it seems like, that's it...
[20:52] <Syntux> yeah
[20:54] <bimberi> @now sydney
[20:54] <sabdfl> sirex`: that's very cool! how many folks would you expect?
[20:54] <fdd> @now Bucharest
[20:54]  * elkbuntu flounders around trying to wake up.
[20:54] <bimberi> hey elkbuntu!
[20:54] <juliux> morning elkbuntu
[20:54]  * juliux gives elkbuntu a coffee
[20:55] <elkbuntu> juliux, it had better be at least double shot
[20:55] <emgent> sabdfl: some time today for ubuntu members candidature?
[20:55] <sirex`> sabdfl: it hard to say, becouse we opened registration only for those who planning to install ubuntu, and now we have about 20. But it is possible, that about 100 people will come...
[20:55] <juliux> elkbuntu, you can get a coffee flat;)
[20:56] <Syntux> @now Amman
[20:56] <elkbuntu> well, i've only got 45 minutes to spare before i have to run off for a rudely cooincidental breakfast meeting
[20:57] <amachu> hi i am also here
[20:57] <RoAkSoAx> emgent, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards
[21:00] <emgent> argh changed.
[21:00] <emgent> ok thanks RoAkSoAx
[21:03] <Andre_Gondim> @now
[21:03] <mdke> ah drat
[21:04] <mdke> silly time zones
[21:04] <mdke> see you in an hour then
[21:04] <elkbuntu> oh what?
[21:04] <mdke> elkbuntu: drat!
[21:05] <elkbuntu> mdke, yeah, this calculated as now for me
[21:05] <sabdfl> emgent: no, those will be handled by the regional boards from now on, unless someone is contentious and it gets escalated to the CC
[21:05] <sabdfl> sirex`: sounds awesome! Please give my regards to everyone there. It has been ages since I was in Vilnius.
[21:06] <no0tic> hi mdke :D
[21:06] <mdke> hi there no0tic
[21:06] <Schwitzd> hi all
[21:06] <Schwitzd> mdke: :D
[21:07] <sirex`> sabdfl: ok :) BTW you are welcome to come again in Vilnius..
[21:07] <mantiena> sabdfl: it seems you visit in Vilnius was pretty silent, not like Eric S. Raymond or R. Stallman visits :)
[21:08] <emgent> heya mdke :)
[21:09] <mdke> hi emgent, Schwitzd
[21:09] <no0tic> so, where and when will new members be considered?
[21:10] <mdke> no0tic: please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership for details. The regional boards will be up and running shortly
[21:11] <nhaines> I was hoping the schedule might be mentioned at the CC meeting.
[21:11] <nhaines> But perhaps not.  In any case, I'm really happy that they've finally been established.  :)
[21:11] <nhaines> Is there a mailing list or other place I can get further information?
[21:12] <boredandblogging> all the councils are working on it, am sure they will make it publicly known when they are open for business
[21:12] <mdke> nhaines: only that wikipage for the present. Is there information missing which you expect to be there?
[21:12] <no0tic> mdke "next meeting of the membership board for your region" where are the dates?
[21:12] <stgraber> no0tic: AFAIK we haven't planned a meeting (yet)
[21:13] <mdke> no0tic: as I said, they will be up and running shortly
[21:13] <no0tic> stgraber, ok, so today no memberships?
[21:13] <mdke> correct, sorry
[21:14] <no0tic> mdke, ok, will tell that to our new candidates
[21:14] <nhaines> mdke: Mostly dates, but knowing how early it is in the teams' lifecycles, then perhaps a mailing list where such things are being negotiated.
[21:15] <nhaines> mdke: Mostly I'm concerned that I'll have no notice of the first regional meeting, seeing as CC meetings have been so unannounced in the recent past.
[21:16] <mdke> nhaines: that shouldn't be a problem. Also, the meetings will be regular so even if you miss the first one, you should be able to attend one the following week. We've implemented a procedure to fix late announcements of CC meetings, as you'll see from the agenda page
[21:16] <mdke> no0tic: thanks
[21:16] <bimberi> nhaines: Subscribing to the regional team's agenda page on the wiki is one way
[21:16] <RoAkSoAx> nhaines, you should suscribe to the wiki page and when they add dates, you will recieve a notification email...
[21:17] <bimberi> great minds... :)
[21:18] <mdke> afk
[21:19] <nhaines> mdke: I do see that, and I believe that the CC meetings will be much more regular as a result.  Congrats on the work to fix what is an all-too-common problem.
[21:19] <nhaines> If subscribing to the wiki page will ensure notification, then I shall do it.  :)
[21:20] <emgent> hi Volans :)
[21:21] <fdd> AFAIC the membership *problem* will be solved soon.
[21:21] <Volans> Hi all
[21:22] <nhaines> AFAIC?  What's C?  :)
[21:22] <fdd> actually it is AFAICT: As Far As I Can Tell.
[21:22] <fdd> my bad.
[21:23] <nhaines> Ah!  Okay, that I would have recognized.
[21:25] <bimberi> goodness me, some of those applicants have been waiting 6 months
[21:27] <stgraber> so they probably can wait a week or two ? :)
[21:27] <juliux> bimberi, they never appeare at a meeting;9
[21:28] <fdd> @now Bucharest
[21:32] <nhaines> @now Los Angeles
[21:35] <fdd> @now Bucharest
[21:37] <bimberi> juliux: They've probably given up :/
[21:37] <juliux> bimberi, i think they never come to a meeting
[21:40] <fdd> sure they don't.
[21:40] <mantiena> but some of them (like me) are here now :)
[21:40] <bimberi> Those regularly held, well notified meetings?  heh
[21:41] <nhaines> bimberi: Well, that's what they're trying to fix.
[21:42] <bimberi> nhaines: Yes, I'm coming cross too negatively I realise.  Things are on the improve. :)
[21:43] <nhaines> bimberi: No sense in saying "it should have been sooner!" if at least there's now a solution.  Can't help that now.  :)
[21:44] <fdd> @now Bucharest
[21:50] <BunnyRevolution> i've listed my interest in the discussion topic at this address http://www.tatteredmoons.org/index_1.html for your review.  i'll take questions after the meeting starts.  i'll leave the link posted available for the hour.
[21:53] <mdke> nhaines: I will try and announce by way of email to vaguely relevant mailing lists and the blogsphere when the regional boards are ready to go - we have just a couple of issues to resolve first
[21:55] <nhaines> mdke: My anxiety is mainly due to my habit of not finding things out until the last minute.  I know setting up regional boards must be a massive amount of work and I have every confidence in the new system--just not in my ability to attend.  :)
[21:55] <fdd> @now Bucharest
[21:55] <nhaines> mdke: I'd also offer any assistance, but there I'd better leave it to the pros at this late time.
[21:56] <mdke> nhaines: understood. We are nearly there, genuinely
[21:57] <Andre_Gondim> @now recife
[21:59] <ramvi> @now stavanger
[21:59] <juliux> hey tonyyarusso
[21:59] <gnomefreak> hi tonyyarusso
[21:59] <juliux> tonyyarusso, shirts are orderd today, they will arrive at the end of may
[21:59] <sabdfl> evening all
[22:00] <gnomefreak> hi sabdfl
[22:00] <tonyyarusso> heya folks
[22:00] <tonyyarusso> juliux: Very good :)
[22:00] <mantiena> hi again
[22:00] <nhaines> Evening, sabdfl.  :)
[22:00] <sabdfl> who's here from the CC?
[22:00] <mdke> o/
[22:00]  * boredandblogging waves
[22:00] <fdd> evening.
[22:00] <tonyyarusso> ya
[22:00] <tonyyarusso> win 6
[22:01] <sabdfl> hey mdke - had the same issue with clocks :-)
[22:02] <mdke> sabdfl: summer time is so bitter sweet
[22:02] <tonyyarusso> Oh, did the sane countries just switch this weekend?
[22:02] <mdke> a few weekends ago here
[22:02] <juliux> tonyyarusso, in the middle of april
[22:02] <tonyyarusso> juliux: I've lost track, since I think we did in March or some stupid thing.
[22:03] <sabdfl> no sign of mako or dholbach
[22:03] <juliux> ahh no at the end of march;)
[22:03] <mdke> while we are waiting, a quick update on membership applications. As announced at previous meetings, we are setting up regional membership boards to consider membership applications. Instructions on how to apply can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership. The membership boards have been nominated, and we are just in the process of creating mailing lists to permit them to arrange meetings: if you subscribe to the wiki page for the board you ar
[22:03] <sabdfl> lost some of that
[22:03] <mantiena> :)
[22:03] <sabdfl> after "wikipage for the board you ar" ...
[22:04] <mdke> wiki page for the board you are interested in, you will find out when the first meetings are.
[22:04] <sabdfl> hey james
[22:04] <elmo> sorry I'm late
[22:04] <mdke> thanks sabdfl
[22:04] <mdke> hi elmo, Burgundavia
[22:04] <Burgundavia> hey all
[22:04] <nhaines> If no memberships will be considered at this meeting, then I shall keep quiet and listen respectfully.  :)
[22:04] <sabdfl> thanks mdke for setting up the various teams
[22:04] <sabdfl> are the lists pending the usual admin intervention?
[22:05] <mdke> sabdfl: yes, although I only requested them this afternoon
[22:05]  * atoponce is here, but teaching class. he will try to keep an active eye on the meeting
[22:05] <sabdfl> elmo, what's the usual turnaround on mailing list creation for non-LP lists?
[22:05] <mercmobily> Good morning
[22:06] <Daviey> >3 months i think is the average :)
[22:06] <sabdfl> what's Mike B's current nick?
[22:06] <juliux> there is also a request for a mailinglist for the loco council open;)
[22:06] <elmo> sabdfl: if we can assume jono's approval, I can have someone creat them tomorrow
[22:06] <mdke> sabdfl: from memory it is MikeB
[22:06] <tonyyarusso> last seen as Technoviking by me at least.
[22:06] <jcastro> sabdfl: Technoviking
[22:06] <atoponce> sabdfl: Technoviking or MikeB
[22:06] <mdke> oops
[22:06] <sabdfl> i'll channel the man and say +1 on behalf of jono
[22:06] <sabdfl> he said he may be late, so let's get started
[22:07] <mdke> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[22:07] <sabdfl> Burgundavia: ping?
[22:07] <juliux> elmo, can you also create the loco council mailinglist? tickt in rt is allready open
[22:07] <Burgundavia> sabdfl: yes?
[22:07] <elmo> mdke: who wants to admin these lists?
[22:08] <mercmobily> I Was wondering if I could humbly ask the chair person if I could be considered for membership first, since it's 5:00AM here and I would love to be able to go back to sleep. If it's a problem, please ignore this message.
[22:08] <mdke> elmo: I'm happy to do so in lieu of the team secretaries and then hand over to them
[22:08] <mdke> elmo: alternatively, we could just pick one person at random :)
[22:08] <sabdfl> Burgundavia: just checking to see you were here!
[22:08] <Burgundavia> I am, no worries
[22:08] <elmo> mdke: I'll opter for you
[22:08] <elmo> s/er//
[22:08] <RoAkSoAx> mercmobily, please take a look to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/
[22:08] <sabdfl> mdke: please make sure they appoint chairmen and/or secretaries as a first priority
[22:09] <mdke> sabdfl: sure thing
[22:09] <sabdfl> ok, i think we are open for business
[22:09] <sabdfl> first item on the agenda is the concerns raised by paladine
[22:09] <sabdfl> is he here?
[22:09] <sabdfl> Paladine: pping
[22:09] <elmo> juliux: that one is with jono atm, could you ping him please?
[22:09] <Paladine> I am here
[22:09] <sabdfl> is there a wiki page which summarises the issue?
[22:09] <juliux> elmo, ok i will ping jono about that
[22:10] <sabdfl> i recall that the commentary was removed from the agenda page in favour of having it elsewhere
[22:10] <nealmcb> mercmobily: i.e. the process has changed, there will be no membership consideration today - the regional boards will be doing that "real soon now"
[22:10] <mercmobily> roaksoak: that page wasn't linked from anywhere in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda . Does this mean that you are not actually getting members?
[22:10] <Paladine> I did add details to the wiki but someone removed them (Hobbsee I think)
[22:10] <mercmobily> neal: *ugh*
[22:10] <tonyyarusso> Paladine: Is there a new page with them, separately?
[22:10] <sabdfl> the agenda should just be one-liners, backing information should be in the wiki elsewhere and linked
[22:10] <Paladine> nope, my instructions were to just raise my points at the meeting
[22:11] <sabdfl> ok, Paladine you have the floor
[22:11] <Paladine> thanks Mark
[22:11] <sabdfl> in future folks, let's try get some sort of /Talk page with points of view together for an agenda item like this
[22:11] <Paladine> I am actually very concerned that itit has come to this sort of action
[22:11] <mdke> good idea
[22:12] <sabdfl> hey scott
[22:12] <Paladine> but over the past 12 months or so I have become increasingly aware of certain irc "volunteers" being rude and disrespectful both to users faces and in their #ubuntu-ops channel
[22:12] <Paladine> I see ops regularly breaking the CoC
[22:12] <Paladine> in multiple channels
[22:12] <Paladine> then coming down hard on users for exceptionally minor infractions
[22:12] <Paladine> and it needs to stop.  It is bad for the community and it is bad for the Ubuntu name
[22:13] <Paladine> I could go an list literally dozens of examples but for the purpose of trying to get this resolved quickly I will paste just a few links
[22:13] <sabdfl> Paladine: can you give examples of the sort of behaviour that you believe violates the CoC, without delving into personal incidents?
[22:13] <gnomefreak> hi LjL
[22:13] <LjL> hello
[22:14] <Paladine> Mark, sure, I would actually prefer to do that than paste links directly to logs
[22:14] <Paladine> there have been a number of instances (in fact it seems to be farely frequant) where the IRC team discuss users in #ubuntu-ops with utter disrespect and rudeness
[22:15] <christel> (i'm here btw so if you want me to comment on anything dont hesitate to hilight me, i'd rather not jump in at random )
[22:15] <Paladine> furthermore, in some of the official channels, certain ops kick and ban users just for fun
[22:15] <Paladine> now, I know we all want to enjoy ourselves, but there cannot be any room for ops to abuse users
[22:15] <Paladine> it is simply unacceptable
[22:16] <penguim> Pretto, good luck
[22:16] <Technoviking> sorry I'm late
[22:16] <mneptok> hail Technoviking
[22:16] <Paladine> thats the basic issue Mark, a systemic problem as opposed to isolated occurrences
[22:16] <Paladine> so much so
[22:17] <Paladine> that an unofficial channel has now become the chatroom of choice for a lot of long term ubuntu users
[22:17] <sabdfl> which unofficial channel is that?
[22:17] <atoponce> Paladine: can you give a specific example, backed up in logs, where an ubuntu channel op banned "just for fun"?
[22:17] <LjL> #ubuntu-offtopic
[22:17] <Paladine> now it is ##club-ubuntu
[22:17] <BunnyRevolution> (i'm here, and i've listed only those incidents i've discovered pertaining me on a website page if requested, without names)
[22:17] <Paladine> it was ##ubuntu-uncensored
[22:18] <Paladine> but certain ops forced the channel name to be changed
[22:18] <sabdfl> can you give examples of ops discussing users in a disrespectful manner?
[22:18] <mneptok> Paladine: i'd be very interested in seeing clear, concise evidence of ops kicking users without any provocation.
[22:18] <Paladine> sab, I could but I don't think it would be acceptable language to quote in this meeting to be honest
[22:19] <ikonia> is it any co-incidence that the channel mentioned is filled with people who have serious bans against ubuntu ?
[22:19] <Paladine> I would point the concerned parties to the #ubuntu-ops channel logs over the past couple of months for reference
[22:19] <BunnyRevolution> i will - http://www.tatteredmoons.org/index_1.html
[22:19] <mdke> Paladine: don't worry about that, we have thick skins. It would be helpful to point us to a few examples in the logs
[22:19] <Seeker`> Paladine: Are there any more specific examples - there must be hundreds of pages of logs
[22:19] <gnomefreak> Paladine: i think since sabdfl asked it would be fine to post
[22:19] <ogra> Paladine, thats why we have /msg :) send it so sabdfl in a pm
[22:19] <ogra> s/so/to
[22:19] <Paladine> mark give me a second I will dig a couple out
[22:20] <christel> while Paladine has never contacted freenode regarding ubuntu, we have seen a growing trend of complaints from users who feel harassed by or personally persecuted by members of the ubuntu ops team over the past few months
[22:21] <Paladine> ok here is a simple 3 lines paste (this is quite a tame one)
[22:21] <Paladine> [03:07] <elkbuntu> yeah. the way he's bitching
[22:21] <Paladine> [03:08] <Pici> Oh, I take it you havent been around when kahrytan is there...
[22:21] <Paladine> [03:09] <elkbuntu> yeah, he needs repeated bullets to his brain too
[22:21] <Paladine> I find that sort of behaviour utterly reprehensible
[22:21] <Paladine> and completely against the CoC
[22:21] <sabdfl> indeed
[22:21] <mdke> christel: that's sad to hear. Do you have a mechanism for referring such complaints back to the Ubuntu community governance?
[22:21] <Pelo> Paladine, what channel is this from , to help put it in context ?
[22:21] <juliux> that issue reminds me to #chaostreffpunkt
[22:21] <LjL> i find scaring LoCo leaders away from their LoCo totally reprehensible, too
[22:22] <Paladine> Pelo, the paste is from #ubuntu-ops
[22:22] <christel> mdke: we ask the users to take it back to ubuntu, we're not really in a position to act on them unless they are a actual network issue
[22:22] <tonyyarusso> I would like to note that there were pairing complaints filed by the ops team against certain users, but those for some mysterious reason were dropped rather than being passed on to people like christel.
[22:22] <sabdfl> ok, let's discuss the specific question of the language in #ubuntu-ops
[22:22] <Paladine> I actually left all the official Ubuntu channels in protest to the treatment of a user and ended up being banned as a result of leaving
[22:22] <Paladine> which is a little strange in my eyes
[22:22] <sabdfl> folks in the CC?
[22:22] <christel> interfering with the running of a project's channel(s) would alas be outside our scope
[22:23] <tonyyarusso> uh, we have never banned for leaving, either.  Could you show the logs from that?
[22:23] <mdke> christel: sure. We can talk later about how we can help identify the relevant complaints arena for such users so that you can refer to
[22:23] <sabdfl> elmo? mdke? Burgundavia?
[22:23] <LjL> sabdfl, I'd like to point out that #ubuntu-ops has long existed as a channel for *operators to exchange opinions/information*. It also serves as a point of contact for users. For transparency, it was decided that the channel be logged.
[22:23] <mdke> sabdfl: yes, I'm here and reading.
[22:23] <LjL> *I do not believe*, however, that operators should watch every single word they say there.
[22:23] <christel> tonyyarusso: that appears to be a misunderstanding, which i believe the ubuntu irc council will discuss (some assumption about how having people on the irc council who also volunteer for freenode making any ubuntu issue automatically a freenode issue or some such)
[22:23] <sladen> Paladine: regardless of the reason [given] for the ban, was the ban perpetural, or just for a short time?
[22:23] <tonyyarusso> christel: it would be helpful if those could somehow be forwarded to the Group Contact, although I'm not sure how would be the best way for that.
[22:23] <mdke> guys. Let's slow it down
[22:24] <christel> mdke: i generally tell them to speak to jono, as i reckon he doesnt have enough to do :D
[22:24] <Paladine> the ban was lifted after multiple complaints were made to the actual channel registrar
[22:24] <sabdfl> LjL: ops are acting in a leadership capacity here
[22:24] <Paladine> the most recent ban I am mean
[22:24] <ogra> LjL, it should still respect the CoC
[22:24] <Paladine> which was against emma in #ubuntuforums by Pricechild
[22:24] <mdke> please leave the floor open for the CC and Paladine for the moment, we'll invite some more comments shortly
[22:24] <christel> but yeah, we even had one case of a user threatening to sue us over us allowing him to be 'abused' by the ubuntu ops
[22:24] <Burgundavia> hmm, reading
[22:24] <tonyyarusso> christel: somewhat agreed, although portions of it were specifically asked to be taken upwards within Freenode, and we were told such was being done, and found out later it never was.  Odd all around, but we'll deal with that separately.
[22:25] <christel> tonyyarusso: aye :)
[22:25] <mdke> the key point is the one that sabdfl has identified already, that ops have extra responsibilities because they act in a leadership capacity. Bad language, in whatever environment, is inconsistent with that
[22:25] <Paladine> it is not just bad language that is the issue
[22:25] <mdke> it's very important that ops lead by example and don't adopt aggressive language
[22:25] <mc44> mdke: because no-one ever swears in -devel, right?
[22:26] <Paladine> some ops have been going around literally harassing emma
[22:26] <Burgundavia> mc44: there is swearing and then there is swearing at somebody
[22:26] <Paladine> to the point where they even masqueraded as new users to try and get her to say something they could then ban her for
[22:26] <mdke> mc44: I don't think you read my message. We ask our *leaders* to assume extra responsibility
[22:26] <Paladine> LjL you know who you are
[22:26] <stdin> Paladine: emma is guilty of the same
[22:26] <ikonia> inappropriate
[22:26] <LjL> Paladine, that was because emma harrassed users to begin with.,
[22:26] <LjL> However,
[22:26] <LjL> I have already stated my position about what I did to the CC.
[22:26] <Paladine> whether emma was behaving appropriately or not it irrelevant
[22:27] <Paladine> you have signed the COC you mustn't behave inappropriately
[22:27] <LjL> I think I'll leave it to them to decide whether that particular topic should be debated.
[22:27] <gnomefreak> i would like to respectivly as emma to bring up his/her own issues at a meeting instead of being talked about without being here
[22:27] <gnomefreak> s/as/ask
[22:27] <tonyyarusso> Nobody tried to get her to say something - we knew that she was saying it, but was smart enough not to say it directly to us.  We had reports of the same from other users, and the uncloaked users were used to confirm the report (successfully).
[22:27] <emma> Excuse me, mark or whomever I should be addressing, I've been sitting here quietly since I just barely got home from work. Since I see my name being mentioned quite a bit, may I have the floor?
[22:27] <mdke> gnomefreak: we're discussing a general issue, all examples are relevant
[22:27] <mdke> let's hear emma now
[22:27] <gnomefreak> mdke: shes here anyway :)
[22:27] <sabdfl> mc44: people should not swear at or about each other
[22:28] <Technoviking> where the people like emma and kathyn?? treated poorly when they was first banned, or only after multiple instances of trouble
[22:28] <emma> Hello sabdfl
[22:28] <tonyyarusso> agreed.  (although all sides are at least equally guilty on that point).  Room for improvement, certainly.
[22:28] <sabdfl> emma: go ahead
[22:29] <nalioth> Technoviking: two completely seperate incidents
[22:30] <mc44> sabdfl: right, I don't think there has been repeated directed swearing, which isn't to say it should happen at all
[22:30] <emma> Technoviking, just to answre that question only for myself. The first Ubuntu op who I ever felt antagonized by, was on my first interaction with them. They have recently left the Ubuntu community though and I do not want to dwell on negative things.
[22:30] <emma> Thanks sabdfl -- First of all, I realize this might not be the best place to say this, but it's really cool to speak to you. :)
[22:31] <emma> This is a statement that I wrote in case my name was mentioned, and especially since I did not expect to be able to be here at all ---http://emnode.blogspot.com/
[22:31] <emma> If everyone could just please read that.
[22:33] <sabdfl> thanks emma
[22:34] <emma> yw
[22:34] <Burgundavia> thanks
[22:34] <Daviey> I should probably mention that emma has been banned across all #ubuntu channels (even channels she's never been in), and the #ubuntu-uk ops were questioned if we should also ban her.  Emma has been in #ubuntu-uk for a fair while now, and has been a very useful member of the channel.
[22:34] <ikonia> sabdfl: could you explain to me how that statment has anything to do with anythign being discussed at this meeting ?
[22:34] <emma> Oh shoot I just noticed it does not link --   http://emnode.blogspot.com/
[22:34] <emma> (for convenience. sorry.)
[22:35] <ikonia> Daviey: I disagree on that
[22:35] <sabdfl> emma, have you ever sent private message spam to other ubuntu users?
[22:35] <LjL> sabdfl, please, define what you mean by "spam" first.
[22:35] <LjL> Or we'll go through what we've already painfully gone through multiple times.
[22:35] <tonyyarusso> Yes, that will be a key point.
[22:35] <emma> I do not spam people.
[22:35] <sabdfl> is there not a standard guide to "pm spam" in ubuntu?
[22:36] <Paladine> yes I think spam is difficult to define and this is where a lot of the problems lie
[22:36] <Scunizi> I was the recipient of an unsolicited PM request to join #ubuntu-unsensored from emma.
[22:36]  * ogra doesnt think we have a pm rule at all
[22:36] <Paladine> I would class spam as someone deliberately disrupting a channel in order to advertise a commercial service or resource
[22:36] <mdke> what is the complaint about emma and why has she been banned from those channels?
[22:36] <ikonia> Paladine: why does it have to be comercial
[22:36] <LjL> sabdfl, no, there is no guide to "PM spam" that I am aware of. I'd say that's a part of the guidelines that's currently left to common sense.
[22:36] <Paladine> I don't class someone being friendly with new users and telling them about other uuntu channels on freenode as spam
[22:36] <ikonia> Paladine: I do
[22:36] <Paladine> ubuntu sorry
[22:37] <ikonia> Paladine: it's not an ubuntu channel
[22:37] <juliux> Paladine, that is spam
[22:37] <stdin> when it's unsolicited, I do
[22:37] <Paladine> ikonia, thats your opinion and you are welcome to it, it is not shared by me
[22:37] <sabdfl> emma was characterised as sending people "pm spam" and i'd like to understand what that means
[22:37] <mneptok> sabdfl: repeated requests to /join other, non-official channels via /msg
[22:37] <mdke> yes, let's find out what has been done, rather than everyone expressing their own opinions about spam
[22:37] <Paladine> emma you still have that log of the disguised op?
[22:37] <Technoviking> was she mass inviting people to the #ubuntu-uncensored channel?
[22:37] <LjL> Paladine, of course she does.
[22:37] <christel> (i'd dare say you can't have a rule preventing people from pm'ing anyone else in $common_channel -- it would open a entirely different can of abusable worms)
[22:37] <LjL> And I do.
[22:38] <emma> Paladine - No. That was posted by the op in question on the Ubuntu pastebin themselves and now it is gone for some reason...
[22:38] <mneptok> Technoviking: yes, but not on the 2008-era botnet level of "mass"
[22:38] <popey> sabdfl: I agree with Daviey, i was approached by another op, inferring that i wasn
[22:38] <LjL> emma, Paladine, I can surely dig that log up if needed.
[22:38] <popey> er
[22:38] <emma> sabdfl -- If you like I could clarify what I have actually done and not done.
[22:38] <popey> wasnt impartial in #ubuntu-uk, because i didnt stamp on emma
[22:38] <mdke> what attempts were made to resolve the issue by discussion?
[22:39] <sabdfl> emma: please do clarify
[22:40] <mneptok> mdke: there were numerous discussions in -ops about the behavior, and we asked it be stopped. /join'ing official channels only to selectively seek other users to surreptiously invite them elsewhere is not productive.
[22:40] <LjL> There were numerous private discussions, I believe, too.
[22:40] <emma> sabdfl -- I'm a social person long before I ever found out IRC existed. I am relatively new to IRC but I am the same here. I have certainly pmed people to get to know them. And most of them have become friends to one extent or another.
[22:40] <Pretto> my first time here, and i would like to ask if every meeting works like today, everybody saying things at same time, some personal fights...
[22:40] <nhaines> It seems, if I may say so, that *selective* targeting is not precisely mass-spamming.
[22:40] <LjL> nhaines: the selectiveness being?
[22:40] <Seeker`> Pretto: This topic has been creating friction for a while - it is not usually like this
[22:41] <Pici> Pretto: This is a particularly emotionally charged meeting...
[22:41] <mdke> nhaines, LjL - please leave issues of definitions until later
[22:41] <stdin> Pretto: it's not the norm thankfully
[22:41] <LjL> mdke, what the hell!
[22:41] <nhaines> LjL: Selectiveness was mneptok's qualifier, not mine.
[22:41] <LjL> mdke, you're asking questions
[22:41] <LjL> sabdfl is asking other questions
[22:41] <nhaines> mdke: understood.
[22:41] <emma> sabdfl -- I also certainly don't deny that in the course of a conversation, I have told people I have gotten to know about things I do and am interested in, if I feel like they welcome that exchange.
[22:41] <LjL> it's not clear whether we should reply, or let Emma speak first
[22:41] <LjL> honestly
[22:41] <LjL> I'll do myself a favor if I use the following command
[22:41] <Paladine> I think it would be prudent to let emma speak
[22:42] <Pretto> ok.. thank you, i think that someone could leader who will talk at time
[22:42] <sabdfl> let emma speak, please
[22:43] <sabdfl> emma: have people often complained that they felt your pm's were unwanted?
[22:43] <emma> sabdfl -- No.
[22:43] <mneptok> sabdfl: the -ops team has had complaints from a number of users.
[22:43] <Paladine> ops team have had complaints or have sought out complaints?
[22:44] <Paladine> thereis a big difference
[22:44] <gnomefreak> Pretto: normally ther eis but this is a heated topic im guessing for a while i just got back after a 3+ month leave
[22:44] <Pici> We have had complaints.
[22:44] <mneptok> Paladine: just what i said.
[22:44] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: Say, are any of the ones you happen to know of around atm?
[22:44] <sabdfl> mneptok: what sort of complaints?
[22:44] <sabdfl> for example, are they "i am getting totally spammed here"? or "should I join this channel i've been invited to?"
[22:44] <mneptok> sabdfl: "i don't know this person." "is this other channel official?" "is this person related to the community in an official regard?"
[22:45] <gnomefreak> complaints == banned users that feel they were justified in what they did or users that were never banned complaining?
[22:45] <sabdfl> emma: when you pm people, is that after you've had personal exchanges / conversations with them in the public channel, or are you pm'ing people you've never exchanged with in the channel?
[22:45] <mneptok> sabdfl: also along the lines of "i don;t want this person /msg'ing me. can you help?"
[22:45] <Pici> gnomefreak: Not that sort of complaints.
[22:45] <sabdfl> Pici: is that what you meant? what mneptok is describing?
[22:45] <gnomefreak> Pici: ok thanks just trying to catch up :)
[22:46] <Paladine> let's give emma a chance she is not the worlds fastest typist and she is more than a little intimidated by this whole affair
[22:46] <Pici> sabdfl: Exactly. or "is emma a bot? why is this person messaging me about this channel"
[22:46] <ikonia> yeah, I'm sure she is
[22:46] <sabdfl> Pici: are we talking 3 people? or 30 people with those questions about emma's pm's?
[22:47] <emma> sabdfl - That has varied. I will some times pm people (in ubuntu channels or otherwise) based on the interesting things they have said in channel or that I've seen them say in the past.
[22:47] <tonyyarusso> likely somewhere in between, although I doubt anyone's really been counting.
[22:47] <ikonia> how does that relate to #ubuntu-uncensore
[22:47] <emma> I would like to point out that #ubuntu-uncensored no longer exists
[22:48] <ikonia> it did until a week ago
[22:48] <ikonia> so it's a mute point
[22:48] <ikonia> why did that channel exist before you where banned
[22:48]  * Pelo wants to know if the ppl were complaining about getting one invite or if they were getting hammered
[22:48] <ikonia> why is that channel mentioned if your just dicussing things of interest
[22:48] <emma> I have had a a real interest in cooperating with -ops and when I understood that my channel was antagonistic to the community it is gone.
[22:48] <tonyyarusso> Pelo: Generally one or two per user, but spread among many users.
[22:48] <Paladine> given that there are about 70 people currently online who feel emma has been mistreated (some people in ubuntu-uk and other in ##club-ubuntu) I think it is fare to say that the "regular" irc community members don't agree with the ops interpretation on this matter
[22:49] <ikonia> Paladine: 70 of 10000 is not regualr
[22:49] <sabdfl> emma: when you pm someone you haven't spoken with before, would you usually be pming them about something to discuss, or asking them to take an action like join a channel?
[22:49] <ikonia> Paladine: given that 4 of the users have serious bans/issues hanging over tham, thats not the best CV to poist
[22:49] <mc44> Paladine: excuse me, you shouldn't speak for others, being in a channel is not supporting a position
[22:49] <Pici> sabdfl: I honestly cannot put a number on it, I've witnessed more than 3 complaints myself, but I have purposely trying not to keep track (being an op is stressful enough)
[22:49] <mneptok> sabdfl: i think the bigger issue is that the behavior was asked by the official -ops team to be stopped, and emma self-vetoed that. she may not agree, but the first instance of disagreement should have been before this council. instead, we're hearing what may well be the last.
[22:49] <tonyyarusso> Note that it took over a month of clearly stating that the channel name was unwelcome (but outside of our namespace) before anything changed - it wasn't a matter of "say, could you change that?" 'sure.'
[22:49] <sabdfl> the reason i ask is that i think it's different to engage someone in a personal conversation ("hey, did you see this slashdot article, it reminded me about what you said yesterday")
[22:49] <christel> ikonia: #ubuntu-uncensored was closed pretty shortly after its conception when nalioth (iirc) explained channel naming policies to emma and she moved the channel to unofficial namespace
[22:49] <sabdfl> from "please join this channel we are having fun"
[22:49] <emma> sabdfl -- I would usually be talking to them as I would talk to someone I met say at a grocery store who uses the same spaghetii sauce that I use.
[22:49] <ikonia> christel: I was in there 2 weeks ago
[22:50] <tonyyarusso> Paladine: Membership in that channel is not tied to believing she was mistreated - people are there for various reasons.
[22:50] <christel> ikonia: sure you werent in ##ubuntu-uncensored? :)
[22:50] <ikonia> christel: %`150
[22:50] <sabdfl> emma: but the complaints seem to be centered around your invitations to join channels
[22:50] <sabdfl> it seems those complaints would most likely be from people you didn't really have a personal relationship with
[22:50] <sabdfl> so i'm guessing the invitation was one of the first things you were sending them, right?
[22:50] <christel> ikonia: strange, then someone must have hax0red my databases to fake the registration and drop dates.. :)
[22:50] <Paladine> could I just interject a second please Mark
[22:50] <mneptok> emma: you still seem to fail to understand that when the ops ask you to stop behavior in official channels, you stop. you don't decide the CC would disagree with the ops and continue the behavior.
[22:51] <Daviey_a> If emma would be so kind, it might be helpful to have a log of one of her pm's - so we can gauge what happend?
[22:51] <tonyyarusso> sabdfl: Usually the conversations consist of two to five lines of "small talk", and then asking the user to join the channel.
[22:51] <emma> sabdfl -- To be totally frank with you. I am sure that I am not a spammer, there is no way for me to account for the perceptions of an unnamed and uncounted number of people.
[22:51] <BunnyRevolution> sabdfl: emma's pm'ed me, and her first, second, third etc. pm was unrelated to any channel abuse or op abuse going on.  i personally don't find a pm as intrusive.
[22:51] <bascule> ikonia: you are clearly wrong #ubuntu-uncensored forwarded to -offtopic for a long long time
[22:51] <Pretto> i think that the focus was lost, even emma has made some kind os spam, the topic was about bad ops beharvior
[22:52] <Paladine> with respect, even if she was being a little "enthusiastic" in making people aware of the unofficial channel, it does not and never can excuse the hate campaign which commenced as a result by certain members of the ubuntu ops team
[22:52] <nickrud> Pretto, emma's issue just encapsulates the ops behavior, as well as some too vague policies
[22:52] <ikonia> bascule: ##ubuntu-uncensored, because ubuntu-uncensored was closed, it's my mistake
[22:52] <emma> sabdfl -- Even having said that though, once the Ubuntu leadership which I consider to be rational and respectful spoke to me and explained exactly what they did not like, I did not continue to do the same thing I was doing.
[22:52] <bascule> OK :)
[22:52]  * Pelo seconds Pretto comment
[22:53] <Pici> I think we are getting off topic here, the name of the channel was just another part of the issue, but clearly not the main one at this point in the discussion.
[22:53]  * sladen stands up as somebody who *hasn't* been spammed/invited by emma
[22:53] <sparklehistory> emma private messaged me completely out of the blue, I'd never talked to her before and usually don't speak that much in #ubuntu-offtopic.  She asked if I wanted to join/idle in a free-wheeling unregulated ubuntu channel called ubuntu-uncensored.  After clarifying that this was not the same sort of idea as -offtopic I declined.
[22:53] <mneptok> emma: long after you were asked to stop, you PMed me and invited me to a channel.
[22:53] <emma> sabdfl,  This last point I made is pretty important for me to highlight.
[22:54] <emma> what sparklehistory just said is not true and I think that nalioth may be able to confirm that he is speaking a falsehood.
[22:54] <Paladine> we are somewhat missing the point here, my complaint was not about emma, my complaint (on the agenda) was about the resulting behaviour from ubuntu ops
[22:54] <zarul> going offline  to work now.. please take note for later membership vote... +1 for nbliang , he contributed a lot
[22:54] <zarul> thanks!
[22:54] <sabdfl> emma: the point about changing your behaviour once "the Ubuntu leadership which [you] consider to be rational and respectful spoke to [you]" ?
[22:54] <emma> sparklehistory, is on the -ops logs coming on April 2nd to comment on a PM he received from me on MARCH 5TH.
[22:55] <emma> I encourage you to look at the -ops logs for April 2nd.
[22:55] <mc44> Paladine: do you count banning from ubuntu channels as qualifying a major part of this hate campaign?
[22:55] <stdin> Paladine: I believe the ops are attempting to justify some of the behaviour of which you speak, so it's on topic
[22:55] <emma> This was obviously not something that was eating at him and it would appear that he only came in after some op encouraged him to do so.
[22:55] <ikonia> emma: any chance you could answer marks question ?
[22:55] <sabdfl> sparklehistory: is that the case? that you only raised the issue two weeks later?
[22:55] <emma> Also and this is key -- He posts his link to the pastebin of our PM with a password. It appears that he gives nalioth the password.
[22:55] <Paladine> mc44, I regard the blanket banning of emma and the conversation which took place in #ubuntu-ops as reprehensible
[22:56] <Paladine> conversations
[22:56] <ikonia> sabdfl: could you please repeat your question about if the respected ops staff asked emma to stop her behaviour ?
[22:56] <Pelo> Paladine, do you have a log of this conversation ?
[22:56] <emma> In the post that sparklehistory just presented to this meeting he says that I told him about Ubuntu-uncensored but that is not true. In the PM that I had with sparklehistory I never once mention the name of any channel.
[22:57] <Paladine> Pelo, there are multiple instances of this sort of behaviour, not just directed at emma but directed at other users including me (for simply raising the point on the agenda)
[22:57] <emma> sabdfl - Sorry there seems to be many threads at once to respond to at the moment :)  Yes, it is important for me to highlight that after the  Ubuntu ops leadership that I respect spoke to me and explained the pattern they did not like, I never repeated that pattern.
[22:57] <sabdfl> emma: ^^ please could you reply to that?
[22:57] <tonyyarusso> Paladine: are there more other than the link you gave earlier?
[22:57] <ikonia> at what point did they ask you ? before after the 5th of march ?
[22:57] <emma> sabsdfl - by 'that' do you mean your penultimate question to me?
[22:57] <sabdfl> emma: why do you say you respect some leadership but not others?
[22:58] <Paladine> tonyyarusso, as I said the #ubuntu-ops logs over the past 6-8 weeks at least are littered with similar behaviour, it would be silly to paste them all
[22:58] <emma> sabdfl - I have more to say that is positive about the leadership I respect than I would want to say negative about the rest. :)
[22:59] <tonyyarusso> Paladine: It woud be far easier to see your point if they were aggregated rather than claimed though.
[22:59] <bascule> tonyyarusso: I have one http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/04/30/%23ubuntu-ops.html 4:00 onwards
[22:59] <ikonia> emma: please stop dodging the qestion
[22:59] <BunnyRevolution> i've tried to stay outside of the issue, and have managed to do so for the most part, but have began to experience the same abuse researching the issue, op abuse is not confined to emma.
[22:59] <sabdfl> emma: i'm thinking about what you're saying, and it creates a problem for me
[22:59] <sabdfl> we appoint an IRC council, they appoint ops, iirc
[22:59] <Paladine> tonyyarusso, I would rather not drag the meeting into a mud slinging contest.  I would advise that key members of this committee review the logs at a more appropriate time
[23:00] <sabdfl> and we can't have a situation where people listen to some ops but not others
[23:00] <mneptok> BunnyRevolution: TBH, you come to -ops at least 3 times per day, say nothing, and leave. it causes people to begin to question your motives. personally, i don't consider you to be impartial.
[23:00] <Paladine> there certainly isn't enough time in this meeting to cover all the points
[23:00] <sparklehistory> sabdfl, I didn't raise the issue until it was pointed out to me by tonyyarusso that that sort of thing shouldn't be happening.
[23:00] <sabdfl> if some ops are not respecting the leaders' CoC, that should be escalated immediately
[23:00] <sabdfl> but the fact remains, they are leaders in the community
[23:00] <emma> sabdfl -- Re: Your IRC Council --- Nalioth, PriceChild, and LjL are three of them that I feel I can work with and not feel insulted.
[23:01] <sabdfl> sparklehistory: what else had you and tonyyarusso discussed in regard to emma? was there a suggestion that a complaint should be filed?
[23:01] <BunnyRevolution> as the ubuntu irc channels are a form of ubuntu support many people see this as a reflection of Ubuntu.  op logs that are littered with language, and poor remarks that would not be allowed in any other *buntu channel is "approved" of in ubuntu-ops
[23:01] <mneptok> emma: i think you are missing the point that it is not your judgment call about whose requests to respect.
[23:01] <Pici> bascule: Thats quite tounge-in-cheek, not everything in the -ops logs should be concidered serious, we're quite sarcastic people at times.
[23:01] <sabdfl> emma: i don't think i can support your decision only to listen to some members of the council, and not others
[23:01] <sabdfl> if there are issues, those should be raised, but selective listening just divides the leadership of the community
[23:02] <BunnyRevolution> in reality i've always seen the *buntu channels as sponsered by Canoical
[23:02] <Daviey_a> sabdfl,  I don't think that is what she is saying
[23:02] <emma> Here is the log where sparklehistory comes in on April 2nd to talk about something that happened on March 5th --- http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/04/02/%23ubuntu-ops.html
[23:02] <sparklehistory> sabdfl, nothing else really, I mentioned to him that this had happened and he told me I should report in -ops so others were aware of it, I did and that was it
[23:02] <sabdfl> Pici: people who cannot contain their sarcasm should not be leaders in Ubuntu
[23:02] <emma> See 06:37
[23:02] <wobblywu> hi
[23:03] <bascule> Pici: well yeah, but it comes from somewhere, now I know no-one is perfect, but if people are given position, they need to be 'better than' but all in all, I think it will just cause ops to be more discrete in what they say rather than change the underlying attitudes
[23:03] <BunnyRevolution> mneptok: if i had stated my intentions, would you have allowed me to continue to peruse the channel?  sometimes research does not allow intentions to be made clearly.
[23:03] <sparklehistory> sabdfl, correction, I don't believe emma actually mentioned the name but from hearing about the -uncensored channel I put the two together
[23:04] <mneptok> BunnyRevolution: the /topic of -ops clearlyt discourages idling or using the channel for any other purpose than to report issues. this includes intelligence gathering. we'd like it to stop.
[23:04] <emma> In the log I just linked to you can see that sparklehistory posts a pastebin of our pm.  sparklehistory just stated here in #ubuntu-meeting that I told him the name of my channel. If infact nalioth saw that pastebin as it appears he might have, he can confirm that sparklehistory history is not telling the truth.
[23:04] <Seeker`> BunnyRevolution: If you just wanted to see what is being said, you could look in the logs
[23:04] <sabdfl> emma: how many people would you say you have invited to join this channel?
[23:04] <emma> sparklehistory, thank you for your correction. I am glad that we sorted that out.
[23:04] <stdin> BunnyRevolution: your quite obvious intent to hide your ID was what made use suspicions of you in the first place
[23:04] <Pici> This particular conversation was within operators, we were not addressing a particular user within the channel, most lines were followed by :P and was ended with </rant>.
[23:04] <Paladine> Pici, that doesn't make it ok
[23:05] <nixternal> sabdfl: you have mail
[23:05] <sparklehistory> emma, yeah, it was awhile ago and it's hard to keep things straight
[23:05] <emma> sparklehistory, so you feel it is spamming even when I give you no information that actually leads you to the channel?
[23:05] <Paladine> I was insulted by the behaviour even though it was not directed at me
[23:05] <Pici> Paladine: I'm just elaborating.
[23:05]  * BunnyRevolution bows out for the afternoon
[23:05] <sabdfl> Pici: the way you say something has as much impact as what you are saying
[23:05] <sabdfl> Pici: it is simply unacceptable to call an ubuntu user a "fucker" or to suggest they get bullets in their brain
[23:05] <emma> sabdfl, I do not know to be honest with you.  And I am a part of many channels on Freenode.
[23:05] <mdke> I think we are hearing enough issues from users who are expressing their problems in a measured way to think that there is potentially an issue of governance in the irc community
[23:05] <sabdfl> totally, utterly unacceptable
[23:06] <bascule> Pici: inderlying attitudes, and actions that can corroberate that attitude are apparent
[23:06] <ikonia> emma: you are only part of about 3 channels on freenode that you do not own
[23:06] <Pici> sabdfl: I'm not defending that.  I'm only saying that not everything is always serious.
[23:06] <mdke> issues will always arise in any area of the community, the key is to deal with them in a mature and conciliatory way to ensure that they do not become polarised
[23:06] <emma> sabdfl - as proud as I am of my ubuntu related channel I am an op or contact in several others channels here, and one of them is rather serious.
[23:06] <mneptok> sabdfl: personally, the only brain i think about vis-a-vis bullets when on IRC is my own. :)
[23:06] <mdke> it looks like that isn't always happening here
[23:06] <Paladine> just to try and cool things down for a minute, I have a suggestion on how we might improve the situation if I may?
[23:06] <OgMaciel> mdke: +1
[23:06] <emma> ikonia -- How exactly would you know that?
[23:06] <ikonia> emma: I have whois'd you
[23:07] <sabdfl> Pici: i'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseam here. the comments referred to are unacceptable, and i for one will not support an operator or irc council member who takes that tone as a matter of course
[23:07] <mdke> ops have a duty to show extra responsibility and maturity, and to take extra time to explain decisions to users, and to explain how to escalate issues if they disagree
[23:07] <emma> ikonia -- why?
[23:07] <Paladine> Mark, the problem is one I have encountered several times in the 17 years I have been using irc and running irc servers
[23:07] <gnomefreak> i think the pm issue people have are related to !pm factoid as people should be asked to pm unless its official reasons
[23:07] <Paladine> inevitably there comes a time where people develop and ego
[23:07] <sparklehistory> I found it disconcerting if be pm'd from an official ubuntu channel from someone I had never spoken to before who was not an official and asked to join a non-sanctioned channel even if the specific channel wasn't named.
[23:07] <ikonia> emma: because of your known behaviour, and to be honest, because I can
[23:08] <emma> ikonia -- apparently many many times in order to know what channels I am 'a part of' on some long term scale?
[23:08] <Paladine> and that has happened here with regards to ubuntu users and channels
[23:08] <mneptok> sabdfl: "as a matter of course" +1. but be aware, emma's actions, inactions, and behavior disrepsectful to the commitment made by the -ops team made this a somewhat irritating issue.
[23:08] <ikonia> emma: not at all, everytime you first highlight me, my irssi script whois's anyone
[23:08] <sabdfl> sparklehistory: it's a big, wide world out there
[23:08] <emma> ikonia -- Are you an Ubuntu op or part of Ubuntu leadership? I've noticed you have said my name in here many times today, but I'm unsure about your role in this.
[23:08] <ikonia> so I know who I'm talking to
[23:08] <sabdfl> how can you be "pm'd from an official channel"?
[23:08] <Paladine> the ubuntu ops seem to be desperate to control every single channel where ubuntu users want to hang out
[23:08] <sabdfl> pm'ing is outside of channels altogether?
[23:08] <mneptok> sabdfl: i don't mean to excuse the behavior, merely point out that circumstances in this case may mitigate or explain it.
[23:08] <mc44> sabdfl: when someone pms everyone who joins that channel
[23:08] <ikonia> emma: as I've made clear to you on many occasions, I am nothing to do with ubuntu
[23:09] <emma> ikonia - Okay then I'm feeling I need to focus on the people who are to do with Ubuntu right now. :)
[23:09] <tonyyarusso> sabdfl: (followup to mneptok, the more serious comments were also for a much, much more serious problem as well, so while I can't excuse them, there is a factor of "heat of passion" kind of thing to consider.)
[23:09] <JanC> I think some people in ops have been under a lot of pressure due to trolls & other stupid people, resulting in them getting cynical and having a low threshold for anything that looks disrupting...
[23:09] <sabdfl> mneptok: nonetheless, just the nick will do, insulting references are unacceptable
[23:09] <ikonia> emma: this is a public meeting
[23:09] <ikonia> emma: I'm asking a valid questions
[23:09] <sabdfl> ikonia: what is your role in ubuntu irc ops?
[23:09] <ikonia> sabdfl: I have no role, other than a community memebr
[23:09] <ikonia> member
[23:09] <mneptok> sabdfl: agreed. it's not excusable, but maybe a bit understandable, given human nature.
[23:10] <sabdfl> ok, then ikonia please sit back for a while
[23:10] <tonyyarusso> JanC: I would say that is a fair assessment.
[23:10] <ikonia> sabdfl: fair enough
[23:10] <sabdfl> It strikes me that censure is a fundamental part of the Ubuntu community.
[23:10] <sabdfl> The existence of a CoC is specifically to identify conduct that is unacceptable, and the implication is that unacceptable conduct will be censured.
[23:10] <mdke> JanC: that seems to match what I am hearing too
[23:10] <sabdfl> There is no implication that, just because Ubuntu is a very human-oriented, and freedom-oriented, project, that anybody can do what they like, on Ubuntu resources or spaces.
[23:10] <sabdfl> In fact, our willingness to ask people to change their behaviour, or even to leave the community if they won't, is core to the commitment we have to a productive community.
[23:11] <gnomefreak> JanC: i have to agree the job is very stressful at times and people (including myself at times) sometimes get a little over zelous
[23:11] <sabdfl> so i am supportive of ops who are firm in maintaining documented standards of behaviour
[23:11] <sabdfl> IRC is unusual in that censure is more rapidly applied in this medium than in others
[23:11] <nickrud> JanC, and -ops has also become a place ops go to to release some steam, hence the hyperbole
[23:12] <sabdfl> and it's delegated very far - to specialists and passionate irc ops
[23:12]  * Pici listens (er, reads)
[23:12] <sabdfl> but that creates a potential for abuse, or misunderstanding, that quickly results in community divisions
[23:12] <tonyyarusso> (re: nickrud, that practice dates back to when #ubuntu-ops was a more private channel, and perhaps it hasn't adapted well to us deciding to make it publicly logged.)
[23:12] <sabdfl> it would take a lot longer to decide to ask someone to stop contributing in, say, mailing lists
[23:12] <JanC> I think it helps if ops don't have too much work; maybe we should try to get more (good) ops that are "local" to a channel?
[23:13] <sabdfl> emma: i am very concerned that you would choose to continue with behaviour that ubuntu ops have asked you to cease
[23:13] <sabdfl> though i have to say i'm also upset at the language and tone taken by some of those ops
[23:13] <tonyyarusso> JanC: There has already been the beginnings of some of that discussion, actually.  It would definitely help.  AFAIK, two or three have actually been added since release day for 8.04 or shortly before.
[23:13] <gnomefreak> JanC: since ive been back someone has Floodbot in #ubuntu to take a bit of a load off of the ops so they can be somewhere else inforcing rules or whatever
[23:13] <sabdfl> what do other folks on the CC think at this stage? elmo? mdke? Burgundavia? Technoviking?
[23:13] <mneptok> emma: bear in mind, the best way to gain repect is to show it. and ignoring the clearly stated wishes of trusted community members does not engender respect. while everyone should be respected as a matter of course, it's unfair to ask people to maintain respect for -non-reciprocal people.
[23:14] <ompaul> gnomefreak, that would be LjL
[23:14] <emma> mneptok - I feel the same commented could have been made by me and many other ordinary Ubuntu users. I believe there is a CoC that is even stronger for leadership and when leadership breaks the cycle of respect that is when people can really become hurt.
[23:14] <gnomefreak> ompaul: ah thanks
[23:14] <tonyyarusso> JanC: (there was also a coincidental occurence of more especially troublesome issues at the same time than usual recently, which is part of the problem too.)
[23:15] <Pici> I'd like to hear from the rest of the CC as well.
[23:15] <sabdfl> emma: did you escalate your concerns to the CC?
[23:15] <sabdfl> or did you just ignore the folks you didn't think were being respectful enough towards you?
[23:15] <mdke> sabdfl: I can only repeat what I said above, to be honest. I think that we have a potential problem here, arising out of the fact that irc is a live medium and makes emotions run high.
[23:15] <sabdfl> yes
[23:15] <Daviey_a> sabdfl, emma didn't know the CC existed until recently
[23:15] <Burgundavia> indeed. This is an issue we have dealt with before
[23:15] <mneptok> emma: i can say with no hesitation that you chose to ignore requests, repeat unproductive behavior, and decide there was a list of leaders you would ignore long before ops began to lose respect for you.
[23:16] <emma> mneptok, sabdfl I have a documented history of being a considerate and positive part of ubuntu channels where the cycle of respect was not broken by the leadership there.
[23:16] <Technoviking> while I don't excuse the ops comments, I do feel they are "heat of the moment" issues
[23:16] <ikonia> emma: I have documented history of toublesome behaviour ?
[23:16] <mneptok> emma: we're talking about -ops. this is where your behavior and actions were discussed.
[23:16] <sabdfl> emma: nonetheless, deciding you don't like a leaders behaviour does not give you licence to ignore them, it gives you grounds to ask that their approach be reviewed
[23:16] <mdke> from what I am hearing and from complaints that I have seen in the past I think there is an issue about helping ops try to rise above those issues
[23:17] <ikonia> mdke: or supporting them in their decisions
[23:17] <emma> sabdfl - As Daviey_a said and also, I believe the standard order of things is to take your concerns to the Ubuntu IRC Council first. And I have done that. And I trust PriceChild and Nalioth completely.
[23:17]  * Pelo wonders if the "club-house" mentality of the -ops might not be a large part of the issue
[23:17] <mdke> and I'm in particular concerned about what christel said about freenode receiving a few complaints
[23:17] <sabdfl> yes, +1 mdke
[23:17] <sabdfl> christel: can you give us some idea of the complaints?
[23:17] <Paladine> Mark, with respect, emma didn't know about the cc, which is why I raised the agenda issue.  but even saying that, after the point was raised on the agenda there was talk among the ops of blocking the agenda items simply because I did not approach the irc council first
[23:18] <mneptok> Paladine: emma was informed of the IRC Council and CC quite a few times early in the discussions
[23:18] <Paladine> and the reason I didn't approach the irc council was because I had no confidence that the issue would be dealt with
[23:18] <nealmcb> I think more regular meetings of the IRC council would help.
[23:18] <tonyyarusso> Pelo: See previous comment about it's history actually being as a private channel.
[23:18] <mdke> I think when an issue arises with a user and the ops team communicates a decision to them, we should always work to ensure that there is (a) dispassionate discussion of the issue first, involving the user without intimidating them, and (b) communication of how to escalate the issue if there is a disagreement, including to the CC if necessary
[23:18] <emma> mneptok, I do not recall that. I believe I did not know about the CC until I found my name on one of the wikis.
[23:18] <sabdfl> Paladine: you would nonetheless have a documented meeting at which your concerns would be raised and discussed, which the CC could refer to
[23:19] <christel> sabdfl: i can certainly try -- now, as you are probably all aware we generally don't meddle in channel affairs, doing so would be abusing our powers and go against everything we stand for. However, we are very happy to try mediate where there is a interpersonal problem.
[23:19] <mdke> nealmcb: I think that is a good idea
[23:19] <mc44> mdke: I think that happens. The complaints seem to be about things said in publically logged channels not directly to users
[23:19] <tonyyarusso> nealmcb: Actually, more regular meetings of the entire IRC team would help.  That again is something we had been moving towards, although it's had a little less traction in recent weeks due to personal time constraints than it did earlier in the winter.
[23:19] <Pici> nealmcb: As an op I agree with that as well.
[23:19] <nickrud> I can't agree more wth nealmcb
[23:19] <juliux> but you also have to see the point of the irc ops, if you get spammed by some persones over weeks it is realy hard to respect the coc, so i think it is human if you write what you feel, and if you are an irc op on a high traffic channel it is more hard
[23:19] <mdke> mc44: well, I think we're all agreed that those are unacceptable
[23:19] <emma> sabdfl, mneptok , I suppose that most or many people discover the Ubuntu community first and then get into Ubuntu. I discovered Ubuntu from a book store. I only found IRC after already installing Ubuntu. And only then much later did I learn about the forums and the much larger community.
[23:19] <Paladine> Mark, that's true, but I felt the issue was getting so out of control I didn't think it would be good for the community to delay the issue with a meeting I felt would not resolve anything as some of the members sitting on the committee are the same I have witnessed being abusive
[23:19] <bascule> mc44: but lets not play down that is is a demonstration of an attitude in total
[23:20] <mc44> mdke: yes, however in person I think the logs show complaining users are treated patiently and respectfully.
[23:20] <gnomefreak> Pici and nealmcb +1 on the more meetings
[23:20] <emma> sabdfl, I regret some what that I have only begun to learn about the community aspect of Ubuntu after a few people have tried pushing me out of it.
[23:20] <ikonia> what a sob story
[23:20] <mneptok> emma: yes, and among your first acts here was to repeatedly tell the -ops team how to run things. or wht you'd do. or what's being done incorrectly, in youyr opinion.
[23:20] <christel> occasionally though, users believe that we should police every channel on the network (which, with 15 active volunteers, 48K daily users and just under 15,000 active channels is somewhat impossible) and we occasionally get a few complaints about particular channels or projects hit us rather than the projects GCs/IRC councils/whatever they may be calleds
[23:20] <mc44> mdke: for example, I believe civil conversations with emma in ops amount to hours of time
[23:20] <mdke> ikonia: that is not a helpful comment
[23:21] <mneptok> emma: it's like arriving at a party and saying "this food is terrible. and the music sucks." not a great way to win friends and influence people. :)
[23:21] <ikonia> mdke: neither is cyring wolf every 30 seconds
[23:21] <christel> over the past few months we've had a few instances where users have contacted us saying that they felt abused by #ubuntu-ops ops
[23:21] <Paladine> irrespective of the facts or allegations, I think that the seriousness of this issue is illustrated by the number of people who have come here this evening to voice their concerns and therefore it needs addressing
[23:21] <mneptok> emma: there are constructive ways to criticise. forking channels and attemtping to siphon users is not among them.
[23:21] <emma> mneptok, I think that you and I have had good pm conversations and I consider you someone I've become friendly with. :)
[23:21] <sabdfl> christel: several of the Ubuntu ops folks are also Freenode staffers. I for one am grateful for the experience they bring and the cross-pollination of leadership between Ubuntu and Freenore, but I want to know how those folks separate between project behavioural rules and network rules.
[23:21] <mneptok> emma: (one man's opion to the last few statements)
[23:21] <mdke> mc44: sure, it's very difficult for us to judge individual situations at that sort of detailed level. We can only respond to the fact that we've had several complaints and that they seem to be from sensible people
[23:21] <sabdfl> christel: how does ubuntu compare with other projects in size, users, and complaints?
[23:22] <christel> sabdfl: i'll get to that in a moment
[23:22] <mc44> mdke: yet these complaints relate, as far as I can tell, to the banning of two people
[23:22] <mdke> mneptok: I don't think establishing unofficial channels should be so actively discouraged. We don't do it with websites
[23:22] <PriceChild> Apologies for being late, here now and catching up.
[23:22] <sabdfl> mdke: i agree, but i can see that there are subtle issues when it comes to the promotion of those channels
[23:22] <mdke> mneptok: I'm told that freenode policy provides for the channel to be prefixed with ##, and if its unofficial nature is explained in the topic, I can't see an issue.
[23:22] <mdke> sabdfl: yes, I'm not addressing the promotion issue
[23:23] <tonyyarusso> mdke: No, that wasn't particularly the problem, but rather the original choice of name combined with the content of the channel at the time.  The new channel is significantly better in both regards, actually.
[23:23] <sabdfl> for example, if someone set up "ubuntuexpertsforhire.com" and started pm'ing people in #ubuntu-* about it, we would have issues
[23:23] <christel> the most noteworthy of our complaints have been related to 'namecalling' and 'kick bouncing' and one particular incident where the user in question felt they were being persecuted for being disabled
[23:23] <sabdfl> that would be outside the trademark guidelines
[23:23] <tonyyarusso> sabdfl: Note there there was (is?) ubuntu-uncensored.com.
[23:23] <sabdfl> i can totally see that someone setting up an unofficial channel and pm'ing tons of people about it would feel like spam
[23:24] <sabdfl> especially if they were asked not to do it, and then continued to do it
[23:24] <mneptok> mdke: agreed. but to participate in the official channels with what appears to be the sole purpose of recruiting users away from them dances close to the edge of the CoC, IMO.
[23:24] <tonyyarusso> Yes, still is.
[23:24]  * Pretto thinking about what is used to elect an user as an channel operator.. irc commands knowledge? community beharvior? friendship with another op?
[23:24] <sabdfl> what is kick bouncing?
[23:24] <mdke> mneptok: yes, I'm not addressing the promotion issue
[23:24] <ogra> sabdfl, i think she meant kick banning
[23:24] <nealmcb> I think and a description for the record in this conversion of the number of folks on the irc council and  the number of ops (with a link to their nicks, policy documents, etc) would be helpful.
[23:24] <christel> now, as a result of these complaints we choose to take a closer look at -ops, being somewhat surprised at recieving complaints -- ubuntu has always been one of the projects who we keep using as an example of a 'great community which is well run'
[23:24] <mneptok> mdke: without active promotion in official channels, i have no issues at all with people creating unofficial channels.
[23:24] <sabdfl> what's kick banning?
[23:25] <christel> sabdfl: yeah, by that i mean repeatedly kick banning people
[23:25] <mneptok> mdke: (to be clear) :)
[23:25] <ompaul> removal and banning
[23:25] <mdke> mneptok: is the same true of the whole team?
[23:25] <christel> ie. kicking a user from a channel without banning them
[23:25] <ogra> sabdfl, kick them out and ban so they cant re-join
[23:25] <sabdfl> ok
[23:25] <mneptok> mdke: i would not presume to speak for them.
[23:25] <mdke> mneptok: (as far as you are aware of that)?
[23:25] <mneptok> mdke: want me to guess? ;)
[23:25] <wobblywu> kick bouncing would be not banning the user, but repeatedly kicking them out and letting them join in again (then kicking them out again, etc)
[23:25] <christel> sorry, when just kicked you can (and many clients do so automatically by default) rejoin
[23:25] <mdke> mneptok: it hasn't ever been discussed as a team?
[23:25] <stdin> mdke: it wan't just the promotion of the channel, it was it's anti-ubuntu topic
[23:26] <mneptok> mdke: not in any fora in which i have been involved.
[23:26] <tonyyarusso> nealmcb: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc/+members ought to help.
[23:26] <mneptok> mdke: but, history shows no real problems with any unofficial channels other than emma's. make of that what you will.
[23:26] <tonyyarusso> nealmcb: See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InternetRelayChat for documents.
[23:27] <Pici> nealmcb: See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines for more info
[23:27] <Paladine> mneptok, so seveas threatening to "sue" me for starting ##ubuntu-politics about 14 months ago is ok then?
[23:27] <tonyyarusso> mdke: I have no issue with creation of unofficial channel provided that they don't deliberately tarnish the Ubuntu mark, which in the early incarnations was the case more so.
[23:27] <mneptok> Paladine: hardly what i said.
[23:28] <sabdfl> we have no problem with a -sucks domain, i don't see why we would have a problem with a -sucks channel
[23:28] <bascule> tonyyarusso: the mark, or the ops?
[23:28] <sabdfl> (we pre-registered a few sucks domains iirc :-))
[23:28] <christel> now, we choose to look at #ubuntu-ops to see if there was anything we could do to help get things back on track, what became apparent to us is that the ops team is pretty small and often very busy, causing the individuals to wear out quite quickly -- which, i'll be the first to admit can make it pretty hard to be nice and polite and all sugar and spice when trying to deal with 'a problematic user' or even just a user who needs things ex
[23:28] <mdke> christel: "user who needs things ex... [cut off]"
[23:28] <christel> ah, sorry
[23:28] <mneptok> christel: snipped at "ex..."
[23:28] <christel> explained in a different to normal manner
[23:28] <mneptok> ...plained ....
[23:29] <sabdfl> yes, i think the team is stretched, the community is huge
[23:29] <emma> sabdfl, I would like to reiterate that once the Ubuntu leadership that I respect came to me and spoke to me about their concerns in a way that was rational and respectful, I have cooperated with them. The channel that keeps being referenced no longer exists.
[23:29] <tonyyarusso> bascule: Mark.  Although it did quite a bit of the latter as well, that wasn't in the name and such affiliated with the behavior.
[23:29] <ikonia> emma: when was it removed
[23:29] <ikonia> emma: to be %100 clear, when was ##ubuntu-uncensored shut down/removed
[23:29] <christel> the ubuntu ops team believe in transparency, which is well and good -- it also has drawbacks, it means that when a public channel is where you bring users to talk to them about what you view as a problem the user in question often enter a defensive mindset by default, they feel publically humilated and belitted
[23:30] <sabdfl> emma: please don't make me repeat my distress at your selective listening for designated leaders, regardless of their behaviour
[23:30] <stdin> emma: after many, many hours of discussion, like the 2.5 hour chat we had
[23:30] <mneptok> emma: the ##ubuntu-uncensored channel does not exist, but it auto-forwards to ##club-ubuntu
[23:30] <bascule> tonyyarusso: probably not the right place but I fail to se the tarnish of the mark, and I don't really understand the second part
[23:30] <Paladine> the point is it shouldn't have been removed in the first place, I see no issue with an unofficial channel called ##ubuntu-uncensored
[23:30] <emma> sabdfl -- And while I do not feel I am a spammer, once the Ubuntu leadership that I respect came to me and spoke to me in a rational and respectful way about their concerns about PMing people, I have not done anything to repeat that pattern either.
[23:30] <Pici> Pretto: Regarding new operators, we look at helpfullness in the channel, history of kicks/bans (we have software that tracks that), and we bounce op ideas off of each other before someone makes the offer.  We usually start off with one channel at a time for new ops.  also, Ubuntu membership is not a prereq (I'm not a member yet, but applying soon)
[23:30] <mneptok> emma: "closed" and "moved" are not the same thing
[23:30] <bascule> tonyyarusso: I will talk to you somepoint :)
[23:30] <PriceChild> ikonia: as far as I am aware, emma renamed it.
[23:30] <ikonia> PriceChild: to ##ubutu-uncensored
[23:30] <sabdfl> emma: i'm growing impatient with your continued emphasis on the "...that i find reasonable and respect" part of that statement
[23:31] <christel> when they then are 'screamed at' by ops and kicked with kick messages like 'LIAR' etc they don't really feel that the -ops team were in any way trying to mediate or solve a situation
[23:31] <Pretto> Pici, me too
[23:32] <christel> either way, i'm going off tangent -- it's a frustrating situation for users and channel ops alike, we often have frustrating situations among freenode staff too, but luckily we can use eachother as sounding boards and ask someone else to take over when we feel we are close to losing patience with a user
[23:32] <wobblywu> I propose we all get silly drunk together, forget any of this has ever happened, and move on
[23:32] <mdke> I'm trying to think of how we can take this forward. I think we need to work with the ops team to find solutions to issues that have been raised this evening, such as understaffing, atmosphere in #ubuntu-ops, escalation processes, and so on.
[23:32] <sabdfl> christel: could you address my question about freenode and project rules, and how people who wear both hats should operate?
[23:32] <christel> thats a bit more difficult in a situation like #ubuntu-ops where it all takes place in public and the ops often are on their own at the time of trying to work with a user to find a solution
[23:33] <bascule> wobblywu: practical to the last :)
[23:33] <mdke> perhaps we can begin an email dialogue between the CC and the ops team to work on those
[23:33] <sabdfl> leadership in a fishbowl
[23:33] <Technoviking> mdke: +1
[23:33] <Paladine> I also think we need some non "ops" on the irc council to help present a neutral view
[23:33] <mdke> I think we can all recognise that being an op is one of the hardest jobs around, we just need to work on ways to make it easier to do and to ensure that users all get a fair discussion
[23:33] <Paladine> but thats just my opinion
[23:34] <christel> sabdfl: yes i can, our internal policy dictate that you dont wear both hats at once -- we also ask that if a situation is such that it makes it impossible to stay impartial due to the project cross-over you step away from the situation as far as fn staffdom goes
[23:34] <PriceChild> Paladine: if someone is of sound enough judgement to be on the irc council, why wouldn't they be ops?
[23:34] <emma> sabdfl,  my apologies. I only mean to say that there were some ubuntu leadership that were antagonistic to me and that made it impossible for them to communicate with me. I just want to be clear that I am cooperative with Ubuntu leadership and that while we are talking about this pming, it's not something that I continued doing.
[23:34] <OgMaciel> I feel that mdke has pretty much nailed a plausible solution about 30 minutes ago
[23:34] <popey> Paladine: i suggested similar at UDS Sevilla but was pooh poohed
[23:34] <popey> (by the irc ops)
[23:34] <mdke> Paladine: well, a team council is specialist by definition, but we could have others subscribed to the mailing list and better escalation to the CC
[23:34] <sabdfl> How do folks on the CC feel about the statement that we expect ops to maintain a respectful tone and to refrain from referring to users in derogatory terms?
[23:35] <tonyyarusso> mdke: If you do, you should be aware that there are more people on the -irc mailing list than just the ops.  Just a thing to note.
[23:35] <Pici> (not cc) but I think that should be a given regardless of situation.
[23:35] <nealmcb> mdke: +1 on escalation policies, particulary "(b) communication of how to escalate the issue if there is a disagreement, including to the CC if necessary"  and the irc council
[23:35] <mneptok> sabdfl: i'm not on the CC, but +1 from me. i think we also must relaize that Ubuntu is for human beings, not just "humans beings of infinte patience and restraint." missteps will be made.
[23:35] <sabdfl> emma: if you think an ubuntu leader is violating the CoC, please escalate that issue, but respect their wishes nonetheless
[23:35]  * ogra expects ops to stick to the CoC as much as himself as a ubuntu member
[23:35] <Paladine> Pricechild, I don't want to be an op, I have a lot of commitments, but I would be happy to sit as a "civilian" on the council and I am sure many others would too
[23:35] <emma> sabdfl, I will do so.
[23:36] <Technoviking> sabdfl: +1
[23:36] <christel> you also asked about size, there's a fair few projects of similar size to ubuntu using freenode, as for complaints, we don't often get a series of complaints regarding a channel/project/namespace -- there's a couple for which we do, ubuntu didn't use to be one of them until very recently
[23:36] <tonyyarusso> popey: I believe the concern was experience of the situation, although our team has now been around long enough that we could start seeing "retired" ops who might be good for that purpose.
[23:36] <nickrud> having someone who's not in the fishbowl as a reality check is a good idea (imho) Paladine
[23:36] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia, for instance, not that he has time.
[23:36] <sabdfl> Paladine: it's a lot easier to call for patience and counselling of difficult users when one isn't in the firing line or committed to doing that counselling
[23:36] <christel> now, i also believe that part of why there's been a rush of complaints may likely be related to the very public nature of some of the issues as raised above (for instance emma/-uncensored)
[23:36] <christel> people bandwagon, this is no exception
[23:36] <popey> tonyyarusso: i dont believe that was the case
[23:37] <Paladine> Mark but that is a good thing, it keeps things more objective and less emotionally driven
[23:37] <mdke> sabdfl: that statement is fine by me, although I think we should pursue things a bit further too, and work with the ops team directly on how we can improve all the issues facing them
[23:37] <sabdfl> i certainly don't want to see an escalating war
[23:37] <nhaines> As a former op in a high-volume channel, +1 to sabdfl's point on patience.
[23:37] <dthacker> perhaps volunteers who handle users well could be recruited?
[23:37] <sabdfl> emma, i would ask you to stop making a habit of inviting people to a different channel, when all you have in common is that you met them in an ubuntu channel
[23:37] <christel> i agree, patience is important, setting an example is also important -- you can't expect your users to behave better than you do ;)
[23:37] <sabdfl> mdke: +1
[23:38] <emma> sabdfl - Done. :)
[23:38] <Paladine> Mark, emma (to my knowledge) stopped inviting people some time ago
[23:38] <sabdfl> christel: i would also like to say that ubuntu may choose to be more firm about censure than other projects
[23:38] <ikonia> Paladine: she's in the channel
[23:38] <tonyyarusso> dthacker: that might be an interesting point - semi-professional catalysts, if you will, who don't do the actual moderating?
[23:38] <mc44> mdke: Most of those issues such as patientence and escalation don't seem to actually have been accused or presented evidence with.
[23:38] <sabdfl> and we would expect all ubuntu ops to stand firm on the CoC
[23:38] <nhaines> Paladine: sabdfl did not accuse, but asked for an ongoing commitment.
[23:38] <sabdfl> even as we expect them to remain polite in doing so
[23:38] <nbliang> sorry guys, running out for work. have to wait for the next meeting again... :(
[23:39] <Paladine> nhaines, I am not disputing that, I just thought it was worth making clear that it doesn't happen anymore
[23:39] <christel> sabdfl: i would be very glad if i saw the -ops team back to following your code of conduct 110% and all of the time :)
[23:39] <sabdfl> if there are freenode staffers who are also ubuntu staffers, then in #ubuntu-*, the ubuntu CoC should hold, and censure is fine, if respectfully handled
[23:39] <mneptok> sabdfl / mdke: you may count on personal time from my life in dealing with these issues. if helpful.
[23:39] <nickrud> !membership > nbliang
[23:39] <mdke> mneptok: thanks.
[23:39] <popey> christel++
[23:39] <gnomefreak> what about a nuetral person example someone who is good with the community is given 1/2 ops to moderate between ops+users with issues?
[23:39] <Daviey_a> As a resolution, emma has agreed to stop - is there a reason her whole #*ubuntu* ban should still exist?
[23:39] <christel> and how you run your channels is up to you, we've never attempted to overrule or change any decisions made by the irc council or ubuntu ops
[23:39] <gnomefreak> s/person/people
[23:39] <christel> nor have we suggested that they undo any bans or similar set
[23:39] <sabdfl> nbliang: membership is nwo going to be handled by regional boards, not the CC, please see the agenda
[23:40] <mdke> right, I'll investigate taking these issues further with the ops team, and we can work with freenode to ensure that any complaints received can be pointed to the right place for escalation
[23:40]  * l3on says "Bye all! (interesting, but too late here)"
[23:40] <sabdfl> thanks mdke
[23:40] <sabdfl> ok. phew
[23:40] <sabdfl> hopefully, that also dispenses with the second item on the agenda
[23:40] <tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: I think it's worth looking into, although the specifics will need some hammering out, surely.
[23:40] <christel> we have however, refused to place network wide bans when they have been demanded by -ops :)
[23:40] <Paladine> the logging item?
[23:40] <sabdfl> and the third is handled by our shiny new fixed schedule
[23:40] <sabdfl> Paladine: yes
[23:40] <gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: agreed just an idea to add to help this whole situation
[23:40] <mneptok> mdke: ping me offline and i'll see if i can offer any worthwhile insight.
[23:40] <christel> and will, should it not be a network issue, continue to do so :)
[23:40] <mdke> thank you to everyone who has attended to discuss their views, and has taken time out with this meeting
[23:40] <Paladine> no Mark, I have other concerns there
[23:40] <Paladine> ones I take very seriously indeed
[23:40] <sabdfl> Seeker`: agreed?
[23:40] <tonyyarusso> Daviey_a: We're still evaluating peripheral behavior.  It may be declining, but generally speaking bans that took three months to earn take longer than most to earn removal of as well.
[23:41] <Pici> christel: Those were regarding complaints of 'stalking' correct?
[23:41] <sabdfl> ok, Paladine, what is the logging issue, briefly?
[23:41] <Seeker`> sabdfl: Yes - I agreed last time, but noone took it off the agenda :)
[23:41] <christel> Pici: stalking?
[23:41] <tonyyarusso> Daviey_a: We will most certainly be keeping an eye on things and looking for an appropriate time though.
[23:41] <Paladine> The IRCSeek Israelie company logging official channels
[23:41] <sabdfl> Seeker`: you can edit the agenda yourself
[23:41] <Pici> christel: Perhaps not, nevermind then :)
[23:41] <Seeker`> sabdfl: will do
[23:41] <christel> Pici: no, i've never heard of any stalking related stuff :)
[23:41] <sabdfl> Paladine: there's no problem with logging
[23:41] <PriceChild> The irc council made a decision about IRSeek, and I have independently invited Paladine to discuss them with us. I'm not sure why this is being escalated to the CC first?
[23:41] <christel> (not related to ubuntu anyhow)
[23:41] <tonyyarusso> christel: lucky :)
[23:42] <Paladine> Mark, anyone who knows me, and many do (whether for good or bad reasons) knows I am very active in the privacy arena
[23:42] <Paladine> whereas we don't object to canonical logging the channels
[23:42]  * tonyyarusso needs to step out to microwave food - hilight me if necessary please.
[23:42] <Paladine> many of us do object to a 3rd party commercial venture doing it
[23:42] <stdin> Paladine: the IRSeekBot is only in channels where ubuntulog is already logging anyway
[23:42] <mdke> Paladine: "we" being?
[23:43] <Paladine> mdke, dozens of users have discussed this over the past couple of weeks
[23:43]  * popey is slightly disturbed that Paladine insists on mentioning that irseek is isreili whenever it is mentioned ;S
[23:43] <sabdfl> popey: +1, seems irrelevant
[23:43]  * stdin assumed it was a typo
[23:43] <popey> -typos
[23:43] <sabdfl> Paladine: google finds the logs anyhow
[23:43] <gnomefreak> is someone in the community linked to IRCeek?
[23:43] <Paladine> popey, whether I like it or not, I do have an issue with the fact they are israeli (whether that is a problem down to me I don't know) but I would object to any 3rd party company doing the same irrespective of where they are from
[23:43] <mdke> I've heard something about this question before
[23:44] <nhaines> I'm not sure there can be a reasonable expectation of privacy in an open, public forum such as mailing lists, web forums, or IRC.
[23:44] <mdke> I can't really see a problem with the logging, myself, especially for channels that are already logged
[23:44] <popey> Paladine: would you have the same issue if they were Scottish? Welsh? Arab?
[23:44] <Paladine> sabdfl, yes you can find the logs on google, but it would take a lot of effort for someone to bring all that data together an duse it
[23:44] <nickrud> mdke, not to drag emma back into this, but her objections to it precipiated -uncensored and all the rest
[23:44] <Paladine> but for one company to control all of that as a commercial venture makes things more sinister
[23:44] <Paladine> popey, yes
[23:45] <Daviey> sinister?
[23:45] <popey> "control" == store
[23:45] <elmo> I'd like to echo PriceChild's question about why this is being escalated to us, if it hasn't been discussed with the irc council first?
[23:45] <Seeker`> Paladine: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
[23:45] <Paladine> as I said I would have the same issue with any 3rd party company doing it
[23:45] <elmo> Paladine: ^--
[23:45] <nhaines> What if it were an individually run service for free?  Why would that be more or less sinister?
[23:45] <popey> Paladine: so why mention the country of origin if it's irrelavent?
[23:45] <ogra> Paladine, they could just scrape irclogs.ubuntu.com
[23:45] <stgraber> Paladine: I have previously done some scripts parsing logs in irclogs.ubuntu.com, it's as easy as if you have your local IRC client logging the channels
[23:45] <mdke> elmo: +1 from me.
[23:45] <stdin> honestly we can't be sure there aren't unofficial log-bots in the channels anyway (there probably are), so what's wrong with an officially sanctioned one?
[23:45] <sabdfl> CC - please vote on a proposal to ask the IRC council to discuss this publicly with paladine and other concerned folks, then put up a /Talk page with viewpoints, if it needs to be escalated to us
[23:46] <juliux> Paladine, why are then in this channel?
[23:46] <mdke> lets have some discussion first in the IRC council, and then we can discuss a documented issue if necessary
[23:46]  * popey copies his logs to a public place
[23:46] <mdke> sabdfl: +1
[23:46] <elmo> sabdfl: +1
[23:46] <Technoviking> sabdfl: +1
[23:46] <sabdfl> done
[23:46] <LjL> sabdfl, there is some discussion already on the public Ubuntu IRC mailing list.
[23:46] <sabdfl> ok Paladine?
[23:46] <Paladine> juliux, because if I hadn't been I would have wasted everyone's time with my agenda items
[23:46] <Paladine> yes mark
[23:46] <LjL> I'm not sure Paladine has intervened in it.
[23:46] <sabdfl> LjL: let's ask the IRC Council to discuss it and prepare the viewpoints if it is still necessary for us to review ig
[23:47] <LjL> sabdfl, there is one problem.
[23:47] <sabdfl> ok, bimberi around?
[23:47] <mdke> Paladine: Hopefully you can resolve this with the irc council. If you feel the issue needs to come back to us, please write up a wiki page setting out the issues.
[23:47] <Paladine> sure mdke I am happy to do that
[23:47] <LjL> sabdfl: I am, as you know, an IRC Council member,
[23:47] <sabdfl> bimberi's suggestion on the agenda, for regional boards to give precedence to those have been waiting, is noted
[23:47] <LjL> If other members of the IRC Council are willing to go *again* on a discussion that has been done numerous times before,
[23:47] <Paladine> can I just thank the organisers for moving this meeting date from the original meeting which I was unable to attend
[23:47] <mdke> bimberi's agenda item is fine - we will certainly work to ensure that all the people in the list on the agenda for the CC are transferred to relevant regional boards
[23:47] <mneptok> Paladine: personally, i find your distaste for the company based on their nationality to be counter to Ubuntu's philosophy. i would suggest politely you keep such portions of your opinion to yourself. i speak only as an individual in the community.
[23:48] <sabdfl> LjL: perhaps they could skip the discussion and prepare the summary of viewpoints on the matter, for us to review
[23:48] <LjL> -- If other members of the IRC Council are willing to go *again* on a discussion that has been done numerous times before, they can do that. However, I won't contribute.
[23:48] <Pretto> mdke, that was the question i had, does we have to fill the proposal again?
[23:48] <sabdfl> Paladine: i would echo mneptok's concerns in that regard, they colour your privacy concerns unnecessarily
[23:48] <LjL> Actually,
[23:48] <mdke> Pretto: you don't need to prepare another personal wiki page, one is enough
[23:48] <popey> mneptok: ++
[23:49] <sabdfl> Pretto: the CC wants to have a document in the wiki that summarises this issue, it will be faster than a long IRC conversation
[23:49] <nhaines> mdke: Pretto was concerned about the regional board agenda pages.
[23:49] <ogra> mneptok, ++
[23:49] <Daviey> mdke, sabdfl elmo, As a resolution, emma has agreed to stop - is there a reason her whole #*ubuntu* ban should still exist?
[23:49] <Paladine> I can accept that criticism, I don't like being more warey of them because of their origin but I would be dishonest to deny it
[23:49] <Paladine> however
[23:49] <RoAkSoAx> mdke, some of us have already transferred to the regional boards, (and i've told other users to do the same) but we are not in the same  order (in the list) and we don't have the same date of application as in the CCAgenda
[23:49] <Paladine> as I said I would have the same issue with any company
[23:49] <mdke> LjL: I think what we'd like is for Paladine to detail exactly what problems he sees, for these to be considered by the IRC Council in case there are some issues that weren't considered already, and then escalated if necessary
[23:49] <emma> My name was mentioned again. It is true that I've also been very passionate and vocal about my distrust of IRSeek. And my opinions about IRSeek did seem to cause me trouble.
[23:49] <nhaines> Paladine: focus on the substantive issues.  If they are strong, they will stand alone.  :)
[23:49] <RoAkSoAx> mdke, but i don't believe that's a problem
[23:49] <elmo> Daviey: I think that's a question for the the IRC council?  (though, I'd be interested in their answer)
[23:50] <Technoviking> Daviey: That is upto the irc council I would think
[23:50] <Pretto> sabdfl, i know that... i meant that how does you guys will know that i want to be a member, the last council wiki was removed the proposal
[23:50] <mdke> RoAkSoAx: I think the boards will be quick enough to process applicants that it won't be a problem. but I'll make a note to raise the issue
[23:50] <sabdfl> Pretto: i'm sure the regional boards will outline a process
[23:50] <LjL> mdke, wait a moment, is the *IRC Council* being asked to prepare a memo with "viewpoints", or is *Paladine* being asked? It's not the same thing.
[23:50] <emma> I would like to say that I have been in contact with the CEO of IRSeek and have had quite long discussions with him. I have found him to be an extremely good guy and very receptive to my concerns. As a result of my talks with IRSeek, IRSeek is implementing policy changes which put the issue to rest for me.
[23:50] <sabdfl> LjL: it should be a /Talk style page, with all viewpoints addressed
[23:50] <mdke> LjL: we'd like Paladine to set out his issues, and for the IRC Council to consider them
[23:50] <emma> I am now very comfortable chatting in and being part of channels that IRSeek is in.
[23:50] <stdin> Paladine: then there's no need to mention your dislike for it's origin, and there's no point in raising it
[23:51] <sabdfl> don't trample on someone else's view, add your own, and the CC will review and make a decision
[23:51] <mdke> LjL: that can then result in a wiki page with different views if applicable
[23:51] <emma> You can see the result of my discussions with the CEO of IRSeek here --- http://emnode.blogspot.com/
[23:51] <Pretto> sabdfl, i will wait to see what comes next, can i suggest one thing?
[23:51] <LjL> mdke, sabdfl: what is wrong with using the extant, faily extensive Ubuntu IRC mailing list thread about it?
[23:51] <LjL> Look, seriously, you're wasting a lot of time, and I really do feel I'm wasting too much of mine.
[23:52] <PriceChild> LjL: I think we can summarise those in one document.
[23:52] <PriceChild> LjL: I will summarise them in one document.
[23:52] <sabdfl> thank you, please allow otehrs to add to that document, and we will review
[23:52] <sabdfl> LjL: because I don't have the time to review an entire thread, when it can be summarised into one document
[23:53] <mdke> LjL: a mailing list thread can be used for further discussion, although it is easier for us, if we need to consider the question, to review a wiki page
[23:53] <LjL> sabdfl: a "Talk" page in the Wiki style you seem to be suggesting is going to be no shorter than a ML thread.
[23:53] <mdke> LjL: it can be the same mailing list thread, or a new one, it doesn't matter
[23:53] <nealmcb> emma: thanks - I hope you include a summary of that in the proposed talk page
[23:53] <Paladine> I will put together a document of my concerns over the next week Mark and forward it to the irc council
[23:53] <sabdfl> LjL: yes, it is
[23:53] <mdke> Paladine: thank you
[23:53] <emma> nealmcb, you are welcome.
[23:53] <Pici> LjL: Lets let PriceChild put it together for now, as he is willing to take the time.
[23:53] <mdke> PriceChild: thanks for that
[23:53] <sabdfl> Paladine: please put it in the wiki, give yourself a paragraph or n for your views, allow others to state theirs, ask people not to repeat points already made
[23:54] <sabdfl> keep it objective. the nationality of the company in question is absolutely not relevant
[23:54] <Paladine> can users add new wiki pages?
[23:54] <Paladine> or do I need someone else to create it?
[23:54] <sabdfl> Paladine: yes, they can
[23:54] <Paladine> ok I will do that then
[23:54] <Technoviking> sorry I have to go get my son from school
[23:54] <sabdfl> thanks all!
[23:54] <mdke> right, let's close the meeting. It's been a long one
[23:54] <stdin> Paladine: all you need is a launchpad account
[23:54] <popey> Paladine: give me a shout if you need help creating wiki pages
[23:54] <gnomefreak> 18:54 <      gnomefreak > emma: can you add the concerns you had to the talk  page or ML as he only talks about the experation date
[23:55] <nealmcb> Thanks to all for their passion, time, patience and honesty!
[23:55] <sabdfl> but enjoyable, thank you all for participating
[23:55] <gnomefreak> sorry posted in wrong channel
[23:55] <mdke> the next meeting will be on 20 May at 11 UTC
[23:55] <Paladine> will do popey, thanks
[23:55] <Paladine> I have a launchpad account
[23:55] <popey> np
[23:55] <sabdfl> night all
[23:55] <gnomefreak> night sabdfl
[23:55] <Pici> goodnight CC
[23:55] <mdke> thank you for everyone who took the time to help us with these issues
[23:55] <nhaines> Good night, sabdfl.
[23:55] <ogra> night sabdfl
[23:55] <mdke> and for keeping the discussion civil :)
[23:55] <tonyyarusso> mdke: "long one"?  Clearly things have been successfully changed since the last one I made it to!  ;)
[23:55] <popey> mdke: ++
[23:55] <nealmcb> mdke: :-)
[23:55] <Paladine> thanks Mark and everyone else who attended
[23:56] <ompaul> cheers
[23:56] <mdke> tonyyarusso: well, a long discussion of the first item. Night all
[23:56] <emma> gnomefreak, my concern with IRSeek had been that it seemed impolite. I feel that a real-time, semi-social interaction like chat is more like a conversation and having everything you do or say recorded for all time, to be read by people you cannot know, is too high a burden.
[23:56] <bascule> bye
[23:56] <nealmcb> I'll once again suggest the use of mootbot for these meetings to organize the agenda better
[23:56] <gnomefreak> emma: thank you
[23:57] <emma> yw.
[23:57] <ogra> emma, but they can easily pull it off irclogs.ubuntu.com
[23:57] <Pici> nealmcb: I dont think we have the mootbot up and running yet, although its on the list of things we need to do with the bots.
[23:57] <mdke> agenda updated; I'll do a short report tomorrow for the team report
[23:57] <LjL> Pici: does the list say "everything"?
[23:58] <nealmcb> Pici: ahh - thanks - It is a great service, but I know you all are coping with a lot of new work :-)
[23:59] <emma> My concerns about IRSeek were sincere and passionate but my conversations with the IRSeek board has lead to IRSeek policy changes that fully address those concerns -- The logging that IRSeek does now, allows for the grace of time to mercifully erase mistakes (large or small) that is commonly expected in conversation-like social exchanges.
[23:59] <emma> That's really all I can contribute to this part of the meeting. Thank you all for listening to me as much as you have.