[09:56] <nicoz-> hi can someone enable carlin0 user on discourse.ubuntu.com , he can't write posts, thanks
[09:56] <nicoz-> hi, can someone enable carlin0 user on discourse.ubuntu.com ? he can't write posts, thanks
[10:11] <nicoz-> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/u/carlin0/summary
[10:23] <Unit193> This isn't really the right channel to ask that since it's not IRC, not really sure where you would go.
[12:39] <guiverc> nicoz-, I don't know/understand your issue, but trust levels are granted automatically by the system when you read etc. posts.   https://blog.discourse.org/2018/06/understanding-discourse-trust-levels/  maybe helpful.
[12:41] <guiverc> if you write a new post; a moderator on the site has to approve it.  They'll receive notification to deal with it automatically on any post being made  (be patient; they'll approve when they can)
[13:17] <nicoz-> ok guiverc thanks
[14:27] <basenji> I would like to have a irc cloak. Just made Ubuntu member.
[14:28] <basenji> My nick has been registered.
[14:28] <basenji> https://launchpad.net/~bernard010
[14:37] <basenji> I request a cloak.
[14:38] <nicoz-> hello basenji, as soon as some moderator reads, he will enable you the cloak
[14:38] <basenji> Thank You for the information
[14:39] <nicoz-> it's Saturday, I doubt that there is anyone at this time
[14:39] <nicoz-> :P


[13:29] <xu-help92w> I have installed xubuntu in "AWS EC2 ubuntu server" and xrdp.  But while I am going open with rdp (remote desktop connection), it shows "Oh no! something goes wrong". Please help to solve this problem.
[14:24] <rod> xubuntão da massa salvou o pentium dual core 1.8ghz, roda video em HD, montei dois para doar
[15:51] <hans_> how do i login on the lock-screen on Xubuntu 22.04 Live?
[15:51] <hans_> it doesn't accept xubuntu:blank nor ubuntu:blank nor root:blank
[16:06] <rrr> hans_ the password may be blank can you access a tty and change the pwd using passwd?
[17:32] <arraybolt3> hans_: Usually the password is entirely blank, but you might try using "live" as the password.


[00:28] <gry> Hi, the two users' request in #ubuntu a few days ago ended up with this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-signed-hwe-5.4/+bug/2000491 being filed against what is a completely wrong package. further, nobody picked it up saying 'i confirm it is a valid bug report, it is also broken on my side' or 'i will try to fix it' or 'please try a git version' or whatever.
[00:28] -ubottu:#ubuntu-discuss- Launchpad bug 2000491 in linux-signed-hwe-5.4 (Ubuntu) "Dell Latitude 7390 running Ubuntu 18.04.6 fresh install system non-recoverable after screen lock and screen completely fades to black or after system goes into sleep" [Undecided, New]
[00:28] <gry> could someone here please help with categorizing it under the correct package
[00:29] <gry> i think it wasn't routed properly because of how improperly it was created in the first place
[00:49] <Eickmeyer> guiverc: That was your triage. ^
[00:51] <guiverc> Not sure I'd call it traige, a suggestion to try support only was offered & i didn't see later response
[01:13] <gry> guiverc: i mean is linux-signed-hwe correct for it?
[01:36] <Eickmeyer> Technically, linux-signed-hwe is a derivative package and it should be linux-hwe-5.4.
[01:36] <Eickmeyer> gry: ^%
[01:38] <Eickmeyer> Though, with 18.04 going EOSS in 4 months, the user probably should upgrade to 20.04 or newer.
[01:40] <Eickmeyer> 5.4 kernel might not play nice on a 8th gen Intel anyhow.
[01:40] <Eickmeyer> Which means it's a support issue and not a kernel issue.
[01:45] <guiverc> thanks Eickmeyer (was afk)
[01:47] <Eickmeyer> guiverc: NP, just didn't want to step on your toes there.
[01:47] <guiverc> not sure you'd do that; isn't in your nature I'm pretty sure.
[01:47] <Eickmeyer> You're too kind. :)
[01:49] <guiverc> :)
[02:39] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[02:51] <cartdrige> Hoi lotuspsychje .
[02:51] <cartdrige> What's up this morning?
[02:52] <lotuspsychje> morning cartdrige
[02:55] <cartdrige> lotuspsychje, What hardware your using Ubuntu with?
[02:55] <cartdrige> like your day driver machine?
[02:55] <lotuspsychje> Client: HexChat 2.16.0 • OS: Ubuntu "jammy" 22.04 • CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8250U CPU @ 1.60GHz (1,25GHz) • Memory: Physical: 11,3 GiB Total (9,1 GiB Free) Swap: 2,0 GiB Total (2,0 GiB Free) • Storage: 134,7 GB / 239,3 GB (104,5 GB Free) • VGA: Intel Corporation UHD Graphics 620 @ Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v6/7th Gen Core Processor Host Bridge/DRAM Registers • Uptime: 27m 48s
[02:55] <lotuspsychje> this is my ubuntu LTS test lappy
[02:56] <lotuspsychje> i also got a NUC i7 for business running jammy
[02:57] <cartdrige> Cool.
[02:57] <cartdrige> lotuspsychje, And you got all the drivers working out of the box on both machines?
[02:58] <lotuspsychje> well, wifi has been a flaky experience on jammy for me
[02:58] <lotuspsychje> i need to say focal was a lot more stable
[03:01] <cartdrige> I see, yea i remember i had issue on an i5 too with wifi drivers.
[03:01] <cartdrige> and 1 guy here helped me fixit out, the faulty driver was crashing the system.
[03:04] <gry> Eickmeyer: they have same issue with 20.04 and 22.10, see comment 2
[03:05] <cartdrige> I use Lubuntu here in fact, with an old fashion taskbar etc.
[03:05] <cartdrige> lxqt
[03:44] <Eickmeyer> gry: I didn't close the bug, but I feel like it might be a hardware issue at that point.
[03:52] <Eickmeyer> gry: Actually, based on the bug report, I confirm it's a CPU failure based on the user reporting "ometimes, when the system is rendered unresponsive as a result of any of the above, the power led is sending the message of "processor failure" (2 x amber blinks followed by 1 x white blink)." The laptop is 100% experiencing a hardware failure.
[11:04] <gry> Eickmeyer: it is interesting that it does this for two users who have the same cpu and gpu combination
[11:05] <gry> do they both have hardware failure
[11:07] <gry> how can they reproduce it in another OS, then?
[11:15] <daftykins> gry: if another OS behaves fine then i think it'd point to power management quirks, did you have them verify the current firmware version? 1.30.0 would appear to be the most up to date for a Latitude 7390
[11:18] <daftykins> tough to guess without some personal history, could have been damaged and be second hand - tough call


[00:20] <mup> PR snapcraft#2835 closed: colcon plugin: support ROS 2 Eloquent <Created by kyrofa> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2835>
[00:22] <kyrofa> \o/
[02:54] <mup> PR snapd#7893 opened: Remove screenshot deprecation notice <Created by robert-ancell> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7893>
[05:44] <mup> PR snapd#7892 closed: many: pass a Model to the gadget info reading functions <UC20> <Created by pedronis> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7892>
[05:45] <mup> PR snapd#7884 closed: snapstate: check gadget model constraints in checkSnap <UC20> <⛔ Blocked> <Created by mvo5> <Closed by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7884>
[05:48] <mup> PR snapd#7891 closed: devicestate: use correct model constraints in remodel/gadget updates <UC20> <⛔ Blocked> <Created by mvo5> <Closed by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7891>
[06:29] <mborzecki> morning
[06:48] <mvo> mborzecki: good morning!
[06:50] <mborzecki> mvo: hey
[07:06] <mborzecki> and it's bug triage duty for me today
[07:24] <mborzecki> quick errand
[07:39] <zyga> good morning
[07:39] <mvo> hey zyga
[07:39]  * zyga needs to spend time debugging a few spread tests that show signs of more complexity than just the reboot
[07:41] <zyga> hey pedronis
[07:42] <zyga> I'll grab a quick breakfast while checking email
[07:59] <mborzecki> re
[08:03] <pstolowski> morning
[08:06] <mvo> hey pstolowski
[08:24] <mborzecki> pstolowski: hey
[08:27] <zyga> pstolowski: hey hey :)
[08:41] <mup> PR snapd#7594 closed: tests: replace "test-snapd-base-bare" with real "bare" base snap <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7594>
[08:41] <zyga> degville: good luck on this historic day
[08:44] <degville> zyga: thank you! I'm not too hopeful tbh, but we'll see.
[08:57] <pstolowski> pedronis: hey, what do you mean by the comment to #7830: "Maybe you are thinking a snap with plugs and slots of interfaces that needs this?" ?
[08:57] <mup> PR #7830: interfaces: include hooks in plug/slot apparmor label <Bug> <Created by stolowski> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7830>
[08:57] <pedronis> pstolowski: that's a question of jdstrand
[08:58] <mup> PR snapd#7894 opened: tests/main/parallel-install-remove-after: spread test <Simple 😃> <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7894>
[08:58] <mborzecki> zyga: ^^
[08:59] <zyga> yup
[09:03] <pedronis> zyga: I'm probably confused about something,  does a layout bind-file  /etc/foo.conf -> $SNAP_DATA/etc/foo.conf also grant read access to /etc/foo.conf ?
[09:03] <zyga> pedronis: AFAIK yes, for a weird way the kernel handles sockets
[09:03] <zyga> let me double check
[09:03] <pedronis> sockets ?
[09:04] <zyga> give me a moment please
[09:04] <pedronis> zyga: np, I don't think it's bad, but I'm trying to use something like this and want to understand if the layout is enough
[09:05] <zyga> pedronis: I misread your question, the real layout would be $SNAP_DATA/etc/foo.conf -> /etc/foo.conf
[09:05] <zyga> pedronis: so yes, we do add the permission for /etc/foo.conf as well
[09:05] <pedronis> ok
[09:05] <pedronis> thx
[09:06] <zyga> pedronis: that's on apparmor/spec.go:357
[09:06] <zyga> pedronis: the thing I mentioned about sockets is unique to content interface
[09:07] <zyga> pedronis: where because of apparmor/lsm weirdness we grant additional permission to connect to a socket at the location it was bound to
[09:07] <zyga> so if two snaps want to share an unix socket
[09:07] <zyga> and snap one makes it in /var/snap/foo/common/socket
[09:07] <zyga> then snap two gets it via content in /var/snap/bar/common/foo.socket
[09:07] <zyga> it gets permission to connect to "/var/snap/foo/common/socket" as well, because otherwise connect doesn't work
[09:08] <zyga> that's in content.go:226
[09:08] <zyga> with a comment describing it above
[09:10] <mup> PR snapd#7895 opened: many: add DeviceCtx.OperatingMode() <UC20> <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7895>
[09:27] <pedronis> zyga: where is the layout blacklist ? is /etc/systemd restricted ? (it doesn't seem to be in my testing)
[09:28] <zyga> pedronis: it is in snap/validate.go AFAIR, I don't believe /etc/systemd is restricted, it won't affect the host
[09:28] <zyga> pedronis: it may only affect systemd running inside your snap
[09:29] <pedronis> zyga: thanks
[09:29] <zyga> brb, power brick
[09:30] <zyga> I think I will need to think about a "winter office" :/ in the kitchen
[09:30] <zyga> as soon as real winter kicks in the office will become a fridge
[09:41] <zyga> re
[10:07] <mvo> sil2100: I uplloaded 2.43~pre1 to focal, so hopefully you have all you need there once its build
[10:23] <zyga> brb
[10:24] <zyga> at least working from the kitchen means tea is made quickly :)
[10:31] <sil2100> mvo: \o/
[10:31]  * sil2100 hugs mvo
[10:34] <zyga> re
[10:39] <mup> PR snapd#7879 closed: devicestate: use httputil.ShouldRetryError() in prepareSerialRequest <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7879>
[10:50] <mborzecki> pstolowski: is https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7658 next for landing in the preseed series?
[10:50] <mup> PR #7658: cmd/snap-preseed: add snap-preseed executable <Preseeding 🍞> <Created by stolowski> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7658>
[10:59] <pstolowski> mborzecki: yes
[11:00] <mborzecki> pstolowski: ok
[11:08] <sdhd-sascha> Hey, will 18.04 get the next snapd version ?
[11:09] <ogra> snapd is a rolling release ... everyone always gets the latest everywhere ;)
[11:10] <sdhd-sascha> ogra: good to know. Then lesser trouble with lxd and snap-confine
[11:17] <mborzecki> ogra: rolling release where it reexecs ;)
[11:18] <jamesh> sdhd-sascha: if you want to test the new version with your snap, try running "snap refresh --beta core"
[11:18] <jamesh> sdhd-sascha: you can switch back by refreshing to --stable
[11:18] <ogra> mborzecki, well, other distros usually update too, just a bit later
[11:38] <pokk> cachio: Hi, did you get your fix for rsync updated? Looking at https://snapcraft.io/rsync it seems like it's not been updated?
[11:38] <mborzecki> do google:ubuntu-{16,18}.04-64:tests/main/interfaces-audio-playback-record fail for anyone else?
[11:42] <zyga> mborzecki: pull master
[11:42] <zyga> mborzecki: it's been fixed yesterday
[11:42] <zyga> brb, let's use that tea and have a short break
[11:42] <mborzecki> zyga: heh, ok, need to merge master to my branch then :/
[11:43] <cachio> pokk, I'll update it, I didn't try
[11:47] <sdhd-sascha> jamesh: thank you. i only run "snap refresh --candidate snapd" and the apparmor DENIED is gone
[11:48] <sdhd-sascha> Have now updated the core too
[12:06] <mup> PR snapd#7896 opened: interfaces/wayland: Add access to Xwayland's shm files <Created by AlanGriffiths> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7896>
[12:08] <sdhd-sascha> alan_g: +1 for 7896
[12:12] <alan_g> sdhd-sascha, I don't think voting here helps. ;^)
[12:21] <mborzecki> zyga: heh, inside lxd container with 18.04 on 18.04 host: Dec 12 12:11:31 my systemd[1]: system.slice: Failed to reset devices.list: Operation not permitted
[12:21] <zyga> mborzecki: that's expected
[12:22] <zyga> is this causing any failures?
[12:22] <mborzecki> zyga: for a second there i thought it does, but looks like just a log in the systemd source code
[12:22] <zyga> yep
[12:22] <zyga> I remember reading that
[12:25] <pstolowski> kjackal: hello, question under your old report: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/restarting-services-from-configure-hook-race-condition/2513/13
[12:26] <mborzecki> btw. jdstrand's fix for deny unix also fixed journal logging?
[12:26] <zyga> 15 minute break
[12:26] <zyga> mborzecki: how so?
[12:26] <kjackal> pstolowski: looking
[12:27] <mborzecki> zyga: i'm seeing [  698.940015] audit: type=1400 audit(1576153071.478:187): apparmor="DENIED" operation="file_inherit" namespace="root//lxd-my_<var-snap-lxd-common-lxd>" profile="/snap/core/8213/usr/lib/snapd/snap-confine" name="/run/systemd/journal/stdout" pid=7017 comm="snap-confine" requested_mask="wr" denied_mask="wr" fsuid=1000000 ouid=1000 without the fix
[12:27] <jdstrand> mborzecki: are you referring to my comment later in the bug or something else?
[12:27] <jdstrand> mborzecki: yes, it does
[12:27] <jdstrand> mborzecki: that is a named unix socket
[12:28] <jdstrand> mborzecki: (even though it is mediated by 'file', that provides an additional clue on the bug since it is unix in the kernel
[12:28] <jdstrand> )
[12:30] <jdstrand> mborzecki: https://bugs.launchpad.net/apparmor/+bug/1855355/comments/3
[12:30] <mup> Bug #1855355: Nested LXD install fails with snapd 2.42.4 (current stable core snap) <AppArmor:New> <snapd:Fix Committed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1855355>
[12:30] <jdstrand> mborzecki: 2.42.5 should fix it
[12:31] <mborzecki> jdstrand: looks like i was to eager to mark https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1856057 as fix released instead of committed
[12:31] <mup> Bug #1856057: Missing daemon service logs in LXD containers <snapd:Fix Released> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856057>
[12:33] <mborzecki> pstolowski: zyga: can you check whether paintsupreme-3d snap does not segfault for you?
[12:33] <pstolowski> mborzecki: checking
[12:34] <zyga> checking
[12:34] <pstolowski> mborzecki: yep, segfault
[12:35] <pstolowski> Illegal instruction (core dumped)
[12:35] <zyga> same here
[12:36] <zyga>  /snap/paintsupreme-3d/2/bin/desktop-launch: line 204: 348665 Segmentation fault      (core dumped) $RUNTIME/usr/lib/$ARCH/gdk-pixbuf-2.0/gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders > $GDK_PIXBUF_MODULE_FILE
[12:36] <zyga> Błędna instrukcja (zrzut pamięci)
[12:36] <pstolowski> yep, same error from desktop-launch
[12:39] <mborzecki> heh
[12:39] <mborzecki> looking at the backtrace it fails somewhere in libnode
[12:39] <zyga> it's always libnode ;)
[12:39] <zyga> ok, I'll really take that break I was planning to before
[12:40] <mborzecki> https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1855969/comments/1 if you're interested in the backtrace
[12:40] <mup> Bug #1855969: paintsupreme-3d does not run on Ubuntu 18.04 <18.04> <paintsupreme-3d> <snapd:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1855969>
[12:41] <sdhd-sascha> zyga: i already seen an segmentation fault on sway snap with gdk-pixbuf before...
[12:42] <sdhd-sascha> i think it's gone with gnome-extension in snapcraft.yaml or the right env's
[12:42] <ogra> pedronis, see my last comment of the logsync thread ... i got it working, but not the way you suggested ... is it a bug that layouts fail for non-existing files ?
[12:44] <pedronis> it should create them
[12:44] <pedronis> ogra: maybe zyga can help
[12:44] <ogra> well, it definitely doesnt, i tested on 16.04, core16 and core18
[12:44] <zyga> ogra: can you describe what you mean
[12:44] <ogra> the current solution works for me though
[12:44] <zyga> ogra: what you did
[12:44] <zyga> ogra: what you expected
[12:44] <zyga> ogra: what you got
[12:45] <ogra> zyga, see https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/manual-review-of-logsync-snap/14059/26
[12:45] <ogra> the last few entries
[12:45] <zyga> ogra: I _think_ this is a known bug, let me find it
[12:46] <zyga> ogra: does this sound familiar https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1843423
[12:46] <mup> Bug #1843423: snap-update-ns fails to construct a layout in /etc/test-snapd/foo when /etc/test-snapd exists <snapd:Confirmed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843423>
[12:47] <ogra> thats a weird bug description but yeah, seems similar
[12:48] <ogra> i didnt use a tmpfs indeeed
[12:48] <ogra> (but bind mount)
[12:48] <zyga> ogra: tmpfs is just a way to trigger it, the mechanics of the bug is the say
[12:48] <zyga> *same
[12:48] <ogra> yeah, tought so
[12:49] <ogra> ayway, bind-mounting the whole dir seems to be a valid workaround
[12:50] <zyga> afk for 15 minutes
[12:50] <ogra> (funnily the dir is get in the 2snp run --shell" setup is completely empty ... but i can create the file i need and the app sees it in the right place)
[12:50] <ogra> *snap run
[12:54] <mup> PR snapd#7897 opened: overlord/snapstate: tweak assumes error hint <Simple 😃> <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7897>
[13:00] <mborzecki> hah https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1855155 is nice
[13:00] <mup> Bug #1855155: snap install hangs if internet is disconnected exactly right after err upload starts <snapd:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1855155>
[13:07] <mborzecki> zyga: google:ubuntu-{16,18}.04-64:tests/main/interfaces-audio-playback-record keeps failing on #7894 with the latest master merged
[13:07] <mup> PR #7894: tests/main/parallel-install-remove-after: parallel installs should not break removal <Simple 😃> <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7894>
[13:12] <zyga> mborzecki: how does it fail?
[13:12] <mborzecki> zyga: https://api.travis-ci.org/v3/job/624112055/log.txt
[13:12] <mborzecki> weird
[13:14] <zyga> hmmm
[13:14] <zyga> is that reproducible?
[13:14] <zyga> or just on a PR?
[13:14] <zyga> (as in is that reproducible as a single run on master)
[13:16] <mborzecki> zyga: heh, got a debug shell with master branch
[13:17] <pstolowski> jdstrand: hey! thanks for taking a look at https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7830 (and sorry it landed without your review, was an oversight, i marked you as reviewer but probably should marked it Blocked as well). does it make sense what i wrote in the reply to your comment?
[13:17] <mup> PR #7830: interfaces: include hooks in plug/slot apparmor label <Bug> <Created by stolowski> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7830>
[13:18] <pstolowski> bbiab
[13:29] <mborzecki> hmm pulseaudio mediates recording access itself?
[13:36] <mborzecki> ok, so
[13:36] <mborzecki> module-snappy-policy is not being loaded by pulseaudio in 18.04 and 16.04 images
[13:36] <mborzecki> anyone know why?
[13:38] <mborzecki> jdstrand: quick question, do you know if module-snappy-policy is still needed in pulseaudio?
[13:38] <zyga> mborzecki: yes
[13:38] <zyga> mborzecki: that's super weird because this test passed yesterday
[13:38] <mborzecki> it passed in the morning too
[13:38] <zyga> mborzecki: literally because it was failing in the opposite way
[13:38] <zyga> mborzecki: so wtf
[13:38] <zyga> s/f/h
[13:39] <mborzecki> zyga: according to travis logs, it was still passing like 3h ago
[13:40] <mborzecki> nothing in the package changelog
[13:51] <ijohnson> morning folks
[13:51] <ijohnson> mborzecki: always happy to find such interesting and fun bugs
[13:52] <mup> PR snapcraft#2839 opened: plugs: add passthrough; check plug_dict is not empty <Created by sd-hd> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2839>
[13:54] <mborzecki> bwt. the standup doc is becoming really slow for me in FF
[13:54] <ijohnson> degville: I looked over your glossary doc and it looks really good! I think it would also be a good idea to add "snappy" there and explain that can mean multiple things, i.e. snapd, ubuntu core, etc. and that AFAIK the term should be kinda deprecated now
[13:55] <mup> PR snapcraft#2839 closed: plugs: add passthrough; check plug_dict is not empty <Created by sd-hd> <Closed by sd-hd> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2839>
[13:58] <degville> ijohnson: thanks, and great idea about snappy. It's most definitely in a preliminary state, but I just wanted to get something up so we/I can iterate over it a little.
[13:58] <ijohnson> degville: yes, understood, but I think it's looking great so far :-)
[14:24] <Wouter0100> Hmmm, I've send a request for a Brand Store a week ago, but haven't received anything back. Is that normal?  I haven't read much about this on the forums, but I could imagine it's paid due the way its requested (through sales :-P). This because I need to ship a package with access to `snapd-control`
[14:24] <Wouter0100> for managing the snaps on the device.
[14:33] <ogra> yes, brand stores are commercial things and need to be paid ... sales should reply to you soon
[14:34] <Wouter0100> Ah, okay. Thanks, than let's have a look if we're able to make some deal work with you guys for my customer :).
[14:38] <jdstrand> mvo (cc mborzecki): sigh, seb128 emergency reverted the pulseaudio SRU since there was a snapd-glib issue that was affected users so now we need to revert the PRs to mediating pulseaudio
[14:39] <jdstrand> s/to mediating/for mediating/
[14:39] <mborzecki> jdstrand: whole PR or just disabling the tests until things are fixed again?
[14:39] <jdstrand> mvo (cc mborzecki): ie, just the testsuite update from yesterday
[14:39] <jdstrand> or was it tuesday
[14:40] <jdstrand> |R 7885 and PR 7886
[14:40] <jdstrand> erf PR 7885 and PR 7886
[14:40] <mup> PR #7886: tests: 16.04 and 18.04 now have mediating pulseaudio - 2.43 <⚠ Critical> <Created by jdstrand> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7886>
[14:40] <mup> PR #7885: tests: 16.04 and 18.04 now have mediating pulseaudio <⚠ Critical> <Created by jdstrand> <Merged by sergiocazzolato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7885>
[14:41] <mvo> jdstrand: ok, thanks
[14:41] <jdstrand> mvo (cc mborzecki): they are working to fix that, so the tests will break again when it goes through
[14:41] <mvo> I think I will directly revert on master without  a PR
[14:41] <jdstrand> mborzecki: you said something elsewhere about making them manual?
[14:41] <mvo> mborzecki:  I think I will directly revert on master without  a PR> WDYT?
[14:42] <mborzecki> jdstrand: yeah, we can skip that test on 16.04 and 18.04 specifically (mvo?)
[14:42] <mborzecki> jdstrand: manual would make the whole test non-runnable on travis
[14:42] <jdstrand> we at least know the test works: it caught that the mediation patches were dropped
[14:42] <jdstrand> (and added)
[14:42] <jdstrand> so, 'yay'?
[14:42] <jdstrand> :)
[14:43] <mvo> mborzecki: manual on 16/18 works for me too, no strong opinion
[14:44] <mvo> mborzecki: if we switch it to manual we just need a card that reminds us to re-enable it agian once the dust settled
[14:44] <mborzecki> mvo: reverting 0552bf0ad62dfad0a92db01350774e77aa82f428 will save 2 spread runs (or more if we need to restart)
[14:44] <jdstrand> mborzecki: well, I would prefer a revert and reapply after the new SRU since they are working as designed and it is just a one line change. unless you foresee a back and forth and don't want them to break up over and over until the dust settles
[14:44] <jdstrand> which is a fair stance
[14:44]  * jdstrand has no strong opinion
[14:44] <mvo> mborzecki: ok, I will revert on master
[14:45] <mvo> both reverted
[14:45] <mvo> well, the patch is reverted on both master and release/2.43
[14:45] <mborzecki> mvo: cool, thank you!
[14:46] <mup> PR snapcraft#2840 opened: plugs: plugs can have no element <Created by sd-hd> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2840>
[14:46] <jdstrand> mvo: thanks
[14:46] <mvo> yw
[14:49] <mup> PR snapcraft#2841 opened: plugs: add passthrough <Created by sd-hd> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2841>
[14:50] <jdstrand> mvo: I'm trying to get info in #ubuntu-release on the timing of the update to add it back again
[14:50] <jdstrand> mvo: it would be a shame if the sru landed late next week or during the break
[14:51] <jdstrand> I guess it would be easy enough to revert the revert, but still
[15:01]  * cachio lunch
[15:05] <jdstrand> mvo: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/1781428/comments/21
[15:05] <mup> Bug #1781428: please enable snap mediation support <patch> <verification-failed> <verification-failed-bionic> <verification-failed-xenial> <pulseaudio (Ubuntu):Fix
[15:05] <mup> Released by jamesh> <pulseaudio (Ubuntu Xenial):Fix Committed by jamesh> <pulseaudio (Ubuntu Bionic):Fix Committed by jamesh> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1781428>
[15:05] <mvo> jdstrand: thanks, reading this now
[15:06] <jdstrand> mvo: trying to have your back :)
[15:07] <mvo> jdstrand: yeah, thanks for that!
[15:07] <jdstrand> :)
[15:08] <sdhd-sascha> zyga: just have a discussion on snapcraft. Is it possible to add "wayland" to the global plugs and then it's for all apps ? I thought you wrote this to me on the first days
[15:09] <zyga> sdhd-sascha: yes, please open a topic abou tit
[15:09] <zyga> *about it
[15:09] <sdhd-sascha> i opened a PR on snapcraft... ok, i wait
[15:09] <zyga> no no
[15:09] <zyga> not a pr on snapcraft
[15:09] <zyga> please open a thread on the forum
[15:10]  * zyga goes for another meeting
[15:13] <sdhd-sascha> zyga: done. But until i got answer. I have to work with my patched version.
[15:26] <sdhd-sascha> the PR was, because snapcraft 3.9.x crash. So something have to be done there
[15:34] <ijohnson> degville: it occured to me I forgot to type up a little blurb for you about how global plugs and explicitly delcared plugs interact, but I responded to sdhd-sascha on the forum about how this works here: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/plugs-in-global-position-in-snapcraft-yaml/14618/2
[15:34] <ijohnson> hope that helps in writing up a doc on how to do this properly
[15:35] <degville> ijohnson: great, thank you! looks good.
[15:35] <sdhd-sascha> degville: ijohnson: thanks. my snapcraft is know 60 line longer :-(
[15:35] <sdhd-sascha> *now
[15:36] <ijohnson> sdhd-sascha: can't you just declare them globally once and not declare any plugs for apps/hooks ?
[15:36] <sdhd-sascha> oh, wait
[15:36] <sdhd-sascha> sorry
[15:36] <ijohnson> sdhd-sascha: the thing you want to avoid is having both the global plugs and the per-app / per-hook plugs
[15:36] <sdhd-sascha> the global case crashes in 3.9.x if the plug is empty
[15:36] <ijohnson> oh well that's unfortunate
[15:37] <sdhd-sascha> it's since interface is in snapcraft/internal/meta/plugs.py
[15:38] <sdhd-sascha> https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2840/commits/0dc7ab09f4b7e0f7744a7606b8b7a80553c89dac
[15:38] <mup> PR snapcraft#2840: plugs: plugs can have no element <Created by sd-hd> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2840>
[15:38] <sdhd-sascha> ijohnson: just overwrite None
[15:38] <sdhd-sascha> above
[15:38] <sdhd-sascha> but, then another validation fails... :-(
[15:39] <sdhd-sascha> afk
[15:40] <sdhd-sascha> the error with my patch: "failed to validate plug=hardware-observe: plug has no defined interface"
[15:40] <sdhd-sascha> now, afk
[15:40] <ijohnson> sdhd-sascha: not sure about why snapcraft fails that way, I'd recommended asking about why snapcraft dies like that over in #snapcraft
[15:43] <mborzecki> meh, multipass lanch failed, apaprently qemu-img grashed or sth, and there's a denial in the logs:
[15:43] <mborzecki> apparmor="DENIED" operation="file_mmap" profile="multipass.qemu-img" name="/var/lib/snapd/snap/multipass/1425/usr/bin/qemu-img" pid=649663 comm="qemu-img" requested_mask="rm" denied_mask="rm"
[15:43] <pokk> ok, next stupid question. Should rsync over ssh not work on ubuntu core? Doing `rsync me@<IP_ADDRESS>:/path` I get "rsync: Failed to exec ssh: Permission denied (13)" followed by "rsync error: error in IPC code (code 14) at pipe.c(85) [sender=3.1.1]"
[15:44] <mborzecki> hmm, but multipass is classi, wth
[15:53] <ijohnson> mborzecki: that doesn't look like a snap profile? `profile="multipass.qemu-img"` ?
[15:53] <ijohnson> mborzecki: also what's the status of https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7570 shall I review that?
[15:53] <mup> PR #7570: [RFC] snap-mount-dir: add mount unit for snap-mount-dir <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7570>
[15:53] <mborzecki> ijohnson: yeah, looks like something internal to multipass
[15:53] <mborzecki> ijohnson: it's on hold now, we found a problem that we don't know how to address in a clean way yet
[15:54] <ijohnson> mborzecki: ack I added the blocked label to show this
[15:54] <mborzecki> ijohnson: cool thanks
[15:56] <pokk> cachio: would you happen to know why ssh isn't allowed to be used with rsync as well? I'm guessing it's some kind of permission problem as well, but I know way to little about it to debug it
[15:57] <cachio> pokk, do you see any denial when you do journalctl -u snapd?
[15:57] <ogra> pokk, how did you get rsync installed in the first place ?
[15:57] <ogra> (i dont think it is in the core snap (definitely not in core18)
[15:57] <ogra> )
[15:58] <pokk> ogra: using https://snapcraft.io/rsync but the test version of it
[15:59] <ogra> pokk, well, i doubt that has access to your credentials on the host
[16:00] <pokk> ogra: No I would buy that, but wouldn't that give me a different error?
[16:00] <ogra> well, it tells you permission to access credentials are denied :) doesnt it ?
[16:01] <pokk> well that highlight didn't really work, cachio https://pastebin.com/K4XTRt7U
[16:01] <pokk> I don't see any errors
[16:01] <ogra> well, in fact it tells you it cant exec ssh
[16:01] <ogra> so thats even before checking credentials
[16:02] <ogra> the rsync snap would have to ship its own openssh copy i guess (so the binary is there) and then would need allowance to access your credentials
[16:03] <pokk> ogra: right, that's the part that I'm very new to how it works.
[16:03] <pokk> and having a hard time googling
[16:03] <pokk> I guessed it was something along those lines tho :/
[16:03] <ogra> well, snap applications run under confinement ... they can not see most of the os by default
[16:04] <pokk> right, but for me it would make sense to have rsync be able to access at least ssh. Given it's wide use together
[16:04] <ogra> typically a snap should ship all binaries it needs inside the snap
[16:05] <jdstrand> mborzecki: notice the profile name is multipass.qemu-img
[16:05] <ogra> for the credentials there are two interfaces ssh-keys and ssh-public-keys ... but for the binary itself there is nothing i think
[16:05] <jdstrand> mborzecki: multipass loads a profile to launch vms under
[16:05] <pokk> ogra: right, but how would one know what is shiped? Looking at https://snapcraft.io/rsync or https://snapcraft.io/rsync-leftyfb there's very little information abut that
[16:06] <jdstrand> mborzecki: it is that profile that would need adjusting
[16:06] <ogra> pokk, you'd have to either look at the snapcraft.yaml inside the snap (if it ships one, not all of them do) or ask the packager
[16:07] <ogra> technically you can indeed just snap download any snap and run unsquashfs on it to inspect the content
[16:10] <ogra> mvo, setting/unsetting a proxy does not restart snapd ? (so the change isnt picked up on core until i reboot) ... is that wanted ?
[16:11] <mvo> ogra (in a meeting, so a bit slow). snapd should pick this up dynamically, i.e. not look at the environment but instead at the config
[16:11] <mvo> ogra is it not working for you?
[16:12] <ogra> mvo, i had a non-existent proxy set for a demo ... did a snap unset on it and snapd still tried to use the proxy url until i ran  sudo systemctl restart snapd
[16:12] <ogra> probably the unset itself is the issue ... i dont think i had to restart it when i used the set command
[16:13] <ogra> hmm, no, snap set has the same issue ...
[16:15] <ogra> mvo, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/KrmBQjyMZp/
[16:15] <ogra> smells like a bug then
[16:20] <mborzecki> jdstrand: filed a bug, looks like it's being generated on the fly? aa-status doesn't list it, can't really switch it to complain mode
[16:20] <mvo> ogra: yeah, that sounds like a bug, that's a bit depressing
[16:21] <ogra> i'll file it before EODing
[16:22] <mvo> ogra thank you
[16:23] <jdstrand> mborzecki: I don't know if it is stored on disk, but:
[16:23] <jdstrand> $ sudo aa-status|grep multipass
[16:23] <jdstrand> ...
[16:23] <cachio> pokk, sorry, I was in a meeting
[16:23] <jdstrand>    multipass.snapcraft-znc-cs.qemu-system-x86_64
[16:23]  * zyga goes for another meeting
[16:23] <cachio> so, what you can't do with rsync?
[16:23]  * zyga should not alt-tab up-enter
[16:23] <zyga> eh
[16:24] <zyga> heh
[16:24] <jdstrand> mborzecki: you can aa-exec -p multipass.snapcraft-znc-cs.qemu-system-x86_64 -- your command
[16:25] <jdstrand> mborzecki: of course, that is for a non-failed stopped vm
[16:26] <mborzecki> jdstrand: aa-status |grep multipass only lists the profiles generated by snapd :/
[16:26] <cachio> mborzecki, hey, when you have time, could you please take a look to this one? https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1856073
[16:27] <mup> Bug #1856073: Snap services not being removed correctly after snap removal <snapd:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856073>
[16:27] <mborzecki> guess, i'll just use my qemu wrapper instead
[16:27] <jdstrand> mborzecki: I'm still on beta. maybe it is a difference between 0.9 and 0.10
[16:33] <marcustomlinson> ijohnson: hey, on the topic of snap startup performance: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/an-investigation-into-snap-startup-speed/14619
[16:34] <ijohnson> hi marcustomlinson thanks, I will try to take a look at that today
[16:35] <marcustomlinson> cool :)
[16:36] <pokk> cachio: no worries :) As ogra suggested I'm guessing it's a permission error due to rsync not having access to ssh?
[16:36] <cachio> rsync does not an interface for ssh
[16:37] <pokk> ogra, cachio I'm not sure if I'm abusing what Core is intended for. To me it seemed like a really good fit. I just want a minimal install with simple updates to keep it safe. For a super small remote backup service. Something that will ssh into my NAS and rsync over a backup.
[16:37] <pokk> it seems like an ideal use of Core. But maybe not
[16:38] <cachio> pokk, this is the definition of the rsync snap https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/snappy-hub/rsync/view/head:/snapcraft.yaml
[16:38] <ijohnson> mvo: is there maybe an issue with the changelog script? https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/commit/d5d937e2f4c2f90de564beaff78a1742e7e5bd2c#diff-72a2d7a5614a41a35eaf22c94697dbf0R374
[16:38] <pokk> cachio: right, so just the removeable-media that we disussed last time around :)
[16:39] <cachio> pokk, yes
[16:40] <cachio> pokk, could you try the ssh which is not working and then execute "dmesg | grep DENIED"
[16:40] <cachio> and show the output
[16:40] <cachio> so I can see which interfaces are needed
[16:45] <mvo> ijohnson: uh, yes - nice catch
[16:45] <mvo> ijohnson: thanks, let me fix that, sometimes it gets confused, it's not super high-tech
[16:45] <ijohnson> np, just thought I'd make you aware :-)
[16:46] <mvo> ijohnson: thanks! and fixed in 2.43
[16:46] <Saviq> mborzecki: hey, re: https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/multipass/issues/1223 - if you can suggest a fix to the profile, we'd love to know!
[16:47] <cachio> pokk, I'll be afk 20 minutes, please leave the info you get and I'll read it once I am back
[16:48] <mborzecki> Saviq: sure, i need to take a look where the profiles come from first ;)
[16:48] <Saviq> mborzecki: https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/multipass/blob/master/src/platform/backends/shared/linux/qemuimg_process_spec.cpp#L39
[16:49] <mborzecki> Saviq: thanks!
[16:50]  * cachio afk
[16:52] <ogra> pokk, core should be great for that but you probably need to create your own application snap for the backup solution you want
[16:53]  * zyga -> supper
[16:55] <pokk> ogra: I sort of assumed rsync would already be doing all I needed. But yeah, I can try and figure out how to create my own rsync snap
[16:55] <ogra> i fear that rsync can simply do rsync and nothing more :)
[16:55] <pokk> cachio: not sure what more info you need? If needed I can try and create my own snap for it. If you don't think it's reasonable to add ssh to rsync
[16:56] <pokk> rsync without ssh seems a bit limited imho, but it might be due to how I've always been using it
[16:56] <ogra> me too ... but i havent had any need to use it on core yet ...
[17:13]  * zyga went to explain browser security basics to his 10yo daughter
[17:13] <zyga> prompted by "cat following the browser" icon at school
[17:18]  * ogra files https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1856212
[17:18] <mup> Bug #1856212: setting/unsetting proxy requires snapd restart on core18 <snapd:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856212>
[17:22]  * ijohnson has managed to break installing the most basic of test snaps on his machine
[17:24] <mup> PR snapd#7898 opened: overlord: replace DeviceContext.OldModel with GroundContext  <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7898>
[17:56] <mup> PR snapd#7899 opened: many: pass consistently boot.Device state to boot methods <UC20> <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7899>
[17:56] <cachio> pokk, I think in this case initially you could copy the snapcraft.yaml and add the ssh
[17:57] <cachio> and use it, I'll talk tomorrow to the team to see which is the best way to cover all the alternatives for rsync and I'll add a new snap version
[17:58] <pedronis> mvo: proposed #7898 following up on #7895, and then #7899
[17:58] <mup> PR #7898: overlord: replace DeviceContext.OldModel with GroundContext  <UC20> <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7898>
[17:58] <mup> PR #7895: many: add DeviceCtx.OperatingMode() <UC20> <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7895>
[17:58] <mup> PR #7899: many: pass consistently boot.Device state to boot methods <UC20> <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7899>
[17:59]  * zyga -> coffee
[18:04]  * genii 's ears perk up momentarily at the mention of coffee, then he wanders back to work
[18:20] <mvo> pedronis: cool, I started with 7898
[18:20] <mvo> pedronis: and will see how far I get
[19:41] <mup> PR snapcraft#2842 opened: rust: add support for workspaces <Created by cjp256> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2842>
[19:42] <pokk> cachio: cool, I'll play around with it. Haven't done any snaps before
[19:51] <cachio> pokk, just copy that file and run snapcraft command
[19:52] <cachio> it  will create the snap
[19:52] <cachio> then you can add the interface you want and try to create the snap again
[19:52] <cachio> pokk, just ping me if you need any help
[20:02] <mup> PR snapcraft#2841 closed: plugs: add passthrough <Created by sd-hd> <Closed by sd-hd> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2841>
[20:38] <mup> PR snapd#7895 closed: many: add DeviceCtx.OperatingMode() <UC20> <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7895>
[20:38] <mup> PR snapd#7898 closed: overlord: replace DeviceContext.OldModel with GroundContext  <UC20> <Created by pedronis> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7898>
[22:11] <mup> PR snapd#7897 closed: overlord/snapstate: tweak assumes error hint <Simple 😃> <Created by bboozzoo> <Merged by cmatsuoka> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7897>
[22:37] <mup> PR snapd#7894 closed: tests/main/parallel-install-remove-after: parallel installs should not break removal <Simple 😃> <Created by bboozzoo> <Merged by cmatsuoka> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/7894>
[22:47] <mup> PR snapcraft#2843 opened: snap: only ship .pyc files, strip shared objects <Created by om26er> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2843>


[00:44] <ad2_> Yikes. In a browser when I click on an email address, a Gnu Emacs email pops up. How would I reset that back to Evolution Mail?
[00:46] <sarnold> ad2_: firefox probably lets you configure that in settings, applications, "mailto"
[00:52] <ad2_> sarnold, Fixed in one hit. Thank you.
[00:53] <sarnold> woot :)
[00:56] <lubuntu_> jes
[00:56] <lubuntu_> i have so uch potential
[00:56] <lubuntu_> so much energy
[00:56] <lubuntu_> so much possibilities
[00:56] <lubuntu_> so much courseness
[00:56] <lubuntu_> i have a lot things
[00:56] <lubuntu_> in my head
[01:39] <morganu2> 22.04 different installation, how do I get natureal scrolling. dont see it in tweaks. (which seems to thin this is a laptop) acer
[01:56] <arrayboltXE> morgan-u2: Is it not in your mouse and touchpad settings?
[01:56] <arrayboltXE> Something like "reverse scroll direction" or "natural scrolling"?
[02:30] <snappy> I read an article that ubuntu zfs support is waning and might not be around for long, does that mean newer ubuntu releases are going to drop zfs?
[02:31] <sarnold> snappy: I don't think that's been decided; it's certainly deprioritized in the installer. it might be better to stick to zfs for 'storage' tasks rather than 'os' tasks..
[02:33] <Bashing-om> snappy: The take I get is "feedback has led to a redesign" >> 2023: see: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/future-of-zfs-on-ubuntu-desktop/33001 for that discussion,
[02:50] <snappy> Bashing-om, sarnold: thanks
[03:09] <webchat68> Ubuntu hides the grub menu if it is the only system installed on a HD. If installed on an Apple macbook with the APFS file system grub doesn't recognize OSx and hides the grub menu. With a PC, the ESC key (and sometimes one of the 'F' keys) brings up the grub menu screen, but this does not work with an Apple. If, at first boot after install, ubuntu
[03:09] <webchat68> 'blackscreens', there is no way to bring up the grub menu in order to boot with "nomodeset". The ESC, and all other keys, do not work. Plugging in a usb PC keyboard doesn't work either. This is a problem unique to apple. Debian (at least some Deb distros) doesn't hide the grub menu by default, the way ubuntu does. Who here has figured out how to
[03:09] <webchat68> bring up a hidden grub menu when the install is on a blackscreened Apple?
[03:13] <Bashing-om> webchat68: Alternate: Boot the installer to "try ubuntu mode" mount the install root partition and edit the /etc/default/grub file ??
[03:23] <webchat68> I've managed by booting live and then mounting the installed ubuntu and editing as root, but it is involved..way too involved for a newbie (which I am not). Why are the ubuntu developers insisting on hiding grub? Linux newbies trying to install on a mac (usually with an older radeon) are running into this all the time. How does this get 'fixed'?
[03:23] <webchat68> Developers should be aware that apples do not behave the same way PC's do, and there are a lot of quality macbooks that are prime for running ubuntu. The point is, it should be way easier to fix than it is.
[03:24] <rbox> file a bug report
[03:27] <webchat68> I'm kind of lost on where to file the report. That's how I got here.........it really isn't a package problem, it is a philosophy problem (the developers did it without considering alternative hardware)
[03:28] <Eickmeyer> !bug
[03:29] <Eickmeyer> In your case, ubuntu-bug grub2
[03:30] <Eickmeyer> Regardless of it being a package problem, the problem would get solved in the package. Either way, that's where to start.
[03:31] <webchat68> Thank you. I was lost as to what package to report because the 'bug' is with the developer decision, not with grub.
[03:31] <rbox> sounds like a bug in grub
[03:32] <Eickmeyer> webchat68: As a developer myself (a packager specifically), that's what I'd want someone to do to bring it to my attention. (grub is outside my purview).
[03:32] <Eickmeyer> Rather, *how* I'd want someone to bring something to my attention.
[03:33] <Eickmeyer> Nothing reported in this chat amounts to anything without a bug report.
[03:39] <rick89> Hi my friends
[03:39] <rick89> Could you please recommend me a book or a video to learn about ubuntu?
[03:40] <xx> rick89: that's a very vague question
[03:41] <rick89> I just installed Ubuntu in my laptop but I just know to do very basic things
[03:41] <rick89> A book about how to manage Ubuntu
[03:41] <Eickmeyer> rick89: Oh can I ever! Recently, one of our Community Council members, who happens to be an author, recently released a book! https://amazon.com/Beginning-Ubuntu-Windows-Mac-Users/dp/1484229991/
[03:42] <rick89> Great
[04:46] <morganu2> 22.04 how to get natural scrolling
[04:47] <guiverc> morganu2, try looking at https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/mouse-touchpad-click.html.en
[04:48] <guiverc> (i gave stable URL;  https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/ubuntu-help/mouse-touchpad-click.html.en is the 22.04 or LTS url)
[04:51] <morganu2> guiverc it isnt there - this computer has mate. Am I Out of luck?
[04:51] <morganu2> I had looked where you said before and tweaks.
[04:52] <morganu2> I thought all 22.04 is lts
[04:53] <morganu2> I looked it up and am going to try this. https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/solved-natural-reverse-scrolling/3190
[04:57] <guiverc> I assumed you were using Ubuntu Desktop (ie. GNOME) thus the link I gave.. you'll need to say in future if using a flavor (such as Ubuntu-MATE & thus not the GNOME desktop). Sorry morganu2
[04:59] <guiverc> there is no guarantee flavors are LTS; eg. for 18.04 one wasn't released as a LTS.. so always read release notes; my using the stable URL was just my error (I didn't change 'stable' to say 'lts' matching your 22.04 release)
[05:00] <morganu2> guiverc I should have said that right away.  -- so far that page didnt work but the final comment said something I dont understand.   ---   Eventually, what did it was the addition .Xmodmap file with “pointer = 1 2 3 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12”
[05:02] <morganu2> MATE is a lot like old gnome. It also sais it is faster on old computers that cant use a compositing desktop (what's that?)
[05:03] <morganu2> and thanks for explaining. I didnt know 18.04 was not an LTS.
[05:03] <guiverc> Ubuntu 18.04 (desktop & most flavors) was LTS; but one flavor was not a LTS... ie. read release notes & don't just assume - being my point there
[05:03] <morganu2> (and I didnt know what you meant by a stable URL.
[05:04] <guiverc> compare the URL I first gave (which was manual for 22.10; ie. stable) & second URL (which was 22.04; ie. I changed STABLE in the url to say LTS to change manual link
[05:06] <morganu2> are the flavors the different DEs? -- > I had thought that - debian fedora redhat arch mangaro ubuntu linspire elementary - were the flavots.
[05:06] <guiverc> (url = link, sorry I can't provide much help with natural scrolling...  I don't use trackpads etc)
[05:07] <guiverc> morganu2, https://ubuntu.com/download/flavours will show the Ubuntu flavors; all are 100% Ubuntu, built on Ubuntu infrastructure; downloaded from ubuntu.com, from seeds on launchpad etc... just different install due to different packages used on the seed; all using only Ubuntu packages..  (flavors use 'universe' or community packages; main Ubuntu does not)
[05:07] <morganu2> I dont use a trackpad either. I use a mouse with a scrolling wheel.  Having to touch the mouse pointer to the skinny little line on the right takes just a bit of extra attention, again and again...
[05:08] <morganu2> oh that's celar about flavors. thank you.
[05:22] <morganu2> guiverc I am asking in #mate. (and celar should be CLEAR) --> new question. Can I add xubuntu as a de in the choices at logon? I am curious about it.
[05:23] <morganu2> When I looed it up I only saw the choice of the .iso.
[05:24] <guiverc> morganu2, you can install multiple desktops on a GNU/Linux system, my older box was a Ubuntu Desktop install, only which I added `lubuntu-desktop` (LXDE at the time, now LXQt), `xubuntu-desktop` (so Xfce) & `ubuntu-mate-desktop` thus MATE too.  I select at login which I'll use for the session.. there are pros & cons to having multiple DEs on a box; myself I love it, but don't generally recommend more than 2 or 3
[05:25] <guiverc> note:  I used `xubuntu-desktop` so I got all of the Xubuntu experience; yes I could have added fewer packages just to get Xfce.. but I find it less troublesome to install everything, then remove anything I feel I don't want... (if adding fewer systems, the release can make a difference, I find flavor-desktop works well all releases without change
[05:26] <morganu2> guiverc  good. I will search to learn more. I want to try the windowing one (and need to look up if it is xubuntu or xfce) .. I appreciate the "teaching not just fixing".
[05:27] <guiverc> Xubuntu is the team that manage the Xfce desktop for Ubuntu; they of course use Xfce on their ISOs, being an official flavor
[05:28] <morganu2> I dont remember which but in the past mate and cinnamon didnt work. I only could use straight-ubuntu.  mate destroyed my video, like the horizontal sync was out (that's a term from analog video, heh) guiverc
[05:28] <morganu2> ubuntu improves tbs
[05:29] <morganu2> 18.04 would not work with the radio (wifi). My laptop saw 20 with windows and only 1 (mine) with ubuntu. And didnt work well outside of home.
[05:29] <morganu2> I jumped to get 20.04
[05:29] <guiverc> I mentioned 2-3... the more you add, the more problems that can appear.. On my 'older' system I'm using as example; I wanted Kubuntu/KDE as well but couldn't get it stable enough... also installed them a number of times to get the order that was the best, before my final install.  that install was done in 2017 & survived until a month or so ago when the PSU on the box failed; why it's an 'older' box (it don't turn on)
[05:30] <morganu2> I justgave away 2 older computers. I didnt have the mental space after I got this one - alleyfind right as they put it out.
[05:31] <guiverc> fyi:  kubuntu stable enough; kubuntu was good.. but with the other 4 desktops I was having stability issues with the system, thus opted to install without kubuntu; my then choice as others were all GTK (back then anyway)
[05:32] <morganu2> OK new question: is this the correct command to make a file called hwlist (in the directory I am in)  I couldnt find the file.
[05:32] <morganu2> the command showed it was doing it.
[05:32] <morganu2> If I send it to "less" can I then SAVE IT TO A FILE?
[05:32] <morganu2> oops
[05:33] <guiverc> I don't see your command, I'd likley use `touch hwlist` to create an empty file of name 'hwlist'  (if it already exists; it'll just update the time/date specs to reflect now)
[05:33] <morganu2> kubuntu plasma was so strange. I gave up because I didnt know of any advantages.
[05:33] <guiverc> you could also use `cat >hwlist` and press enter, then type what you want to be in that file, then hit ^D (ctrl+D) when done... but there are many ways
[05:34] <morganu2> that was 8 years ago.
[05:34] <morganu2> I want lshw output in the file
[05:34] <guiverc> in my eg ^ I didn't tell `cat` what to use as input; thus it used STDIN (standard in) meaning it waited for me to enter the contents for the file...   A ^D without anything more would have created an ~empty file
[05:35] <morganu2> ooops didnt show the command sudo lshw > hwlist
[05:35] <guiverc> `lshw >blah` will redirect output to a file titled `blah`... but you need `sudo` to get full results so yes `sudo lshw >hwlist` in your case
[05:36] <morganu2> confused will retry
[05:37]  * guiverc uses too many words sorry
[05:38] <morganu2> nope I see it there now. OK what is the simple text editor for mate or do I have to use the old stuff, is it nano?
[05:38] <guiverc> pluma
[05:39] <guiverc> MATE was created by someone how used portugese from memory; pluma = pen (or more like quill)
[05:41] <guiverc> (MATE is a drink; sorry I can't recall all the details of the history, but there were some good Ubuntu Podcasts years ago on MATE & it's start; Alan Pope interviewing Martin Wimpress from memory)
[05:50] <NotMyName> Hi. Since some months ago, every time I update my Ubuntu Server 22.04, I get the message "The following packages have been kept back: <some packages>". I can see that the packages shouldn't been removed so I just reinstall them and the message is over. What can I do stop receiving that message?
[05:53] <NotMyName> For example, the last packages that had been kept back were: open-vm-tools openssh-client openssh-server openssh-sftp-server python3-software-properties software-properties-common
[05:58] <Bashing-om> !phased updates
[05:59] <ravage> !phased | NotMyName
[05:59] <ravage> Hm
[05:59] <ravage> There is one
[06:00] <ravage> !phasedupdates | NotMyName
[06:02] <NotMyName> ravage and ubottu: thanks! :)
[06:11] <morganu2> I installed mate. every repository I try to ad "dosn't have a release file" and so "cant be added".  What's going on?
[06:11] <NotMyName> I read it. Turned out it is a good thing. I won't reinstall the packages anymore.
[06:14] <morganu2> Nevermnd. I installed steam with wget etc and it worked. I am otta here tonight.
[06:14] <morganu2> thank you all you lovely persons who are helpful and kind. waves bye
[06:14] <NotMyName> morganu2: because probably you are using a new version of Ubuntu and the developer has not made the software available for this new version.
[06:15] <NotMyName> Taken from https://itsfoss.com/repository-does-not-have-release-file-error-ubuntu/
[06:15] <NotMyName> He quit.
[11:00] <Guest1819> I got a quick question, what is the security policy for universe? Comparing to debian for a minute, if package foo has no maintainer and a vulnerability is found, then the debian-security team will push a patch anyways. Does canonical do the same thing with universe repo?
[11:02] <xx> Guest1819: no support for universe
[11:17] <ogra> CIv, universe is currently best effort ... (there are many packages people from the ubuntu-security team care for in universe, but they do the maintenance voluntary in their spare time, only main receives actual guaranteed security fixes)
[11:18] <ogra> CIv, with the new ubuntu-pro this is slowly changing though ...
[12:20] <FKAShinobi_> Is apt-transport-https still needed? I thought apt was over https by default these days.
[12:22] <mei> it should not be needed
[12:23] <mei> there is only a transitional package left
[12:26] <FKAShinobi_> mei: what does the transitional package do?
[12:27] <mei> nothing
[12:57] <ogra> FKAShinobi_, it is an empty package ...
[12:58] <FKAShinobi_> mei ogra: I'm guessing they keep it around so scripts don't break?
[13:03] <ogra> FKAShinobi_, yeah and potential third party dependencies and such ... it is a normal process if a feature that ships via its own package goes away there is a grace period like this
[13:03] <FKAShinobi_> ok, so sounds like it's basically a form of deprecation
[13:06] <ogra> right
[13:38] <Steffie19> huhu
[13:38] <Steffie19> linux neuling hat mal ein problemchen
[13:39] <lotuspsychje> !de | Steffie19
[13:39] <Steffie19> ok thanks
[14:08] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[15:25] <ReckoningCAT> this is the message i constantly got Warning: failed to launch javaldx - java may not function correctly
[15:25] <ReckoningCAT>  what should i do?
[15:29] <happymeal> the first google result using the context you gave for your error says this will fix it: sudo apt-get install default-jre libreoffice-java-common
[15:32] <ReckoningCAT> each time when i use pd.merge i am seeing new columsn are generated
[15:32] <ReckoningCAT> oops
[16:03] <ruser> how does one enable rsyslog on ubundu 20.04 under wsl2 (no systemd)  apt says it's installed service reports unknow service
[16:14] <ruser> I see all sorts of script to start systemd and drop into the namespace.  is that the common wisdom?
[16:28] <oliver_> Hallo, kann mir jemand sagen ob es ein virus scanner für Linux gibt. Normal brauch doch Linux kein,oder?
[16:29] <oliver_> Danke im voraus.
[16:33] <loose> !de | oliver_
[16:39] <oliver_> Danke schön an alle.
[16:46] <mbeierl_> Does anyone know of a way to shrink the size of a window titlebar in Gnome Ubuntu 22.10?  Tried all different sorts of themes, but none of them are able to modify the titlebar
[16:53] <arrayboltXE> mbeierl: Yeah, one moment, lemme pastebin a file that you can use for that.
[16:55] <arrayboltXE> mbeierl: Paste this into a file at /home/<username/.config/gtk-3.0/gtk.css: https://dpaste.com/5P2R99ZX6
[16:55] <arrayboltXE> (Replace "<username" with your username. And yes, I typoed that slightly but you get the idea.)
[16:55] <arrayboltXE> mbeierl: Then log out and log back in again and see if things look nice.
[17:02] <celestin> salut
[17:53] <Hrothgar1> who wants to play fortnite
[17:53] <Hrothgar1> ?
[17:53] <Hrothgar1> @all
[17:54] <oerheks> Hrothgar, wrong channel to ask
[17:55] <Hrothgar> oerheks which channel do i ask
[17:55] <jofzer> hi
[17:55] <oerheks> Hrothgar, choose one?
[17:55] <oerheks> and make sure you read the topic
[17:55] <Hrothgar> oerheks i choose this one
[17:56] <happymeal> ubuntu is the wrong choice
[17:56] <happymeal> you need a better choice
[17:56] <happymeal> also, a better game wouldn;t hurt either
[17:56] <oerheks> !ot
[17:56] <oerheks> lets stick to ubuntu support, thanks
[17:56] <Hrothgar> can i play fortnite on ubuntu
[18:00] <jhutchins> Hrothgar: Does Fortnight list Ubuntu as a supported platform?
[18:00] <Hrothgar>     jhutchins, What is 'Fortnight'
[18:01] <arrayboltXE> Hrothgar: The game you've been mentioning.
[18:01] <jhutchins> Hrothgar: Two weeks.
[18:01] <jhutchins> arrayboltXE: Misspelled.
[18:01] <arrayboltXE> jhutchins: lol
[18:01] <oerheks> i bet it is a windows thingy.. you need wine for that
[18:01] <oerheks> !wine
[18:02] <oerheks> good thing we do not have to support that
[18:02] <arrayboltXE> Hrothgar: If Fortnite officially supports Linux, then yes. If not, then you'll need to use WINE, which isn't guaranteed to work.
[18:02] <Hrothgar> This speaks volumes about society
[18:08] <ashu> can any one tell me ,is their any other specific channel regarding discussion on react based design-system  ?
[18:09] <jhutchins> ashu: That's probably going to be mailing lists, or possibly forums.
[18:09] <arrayboltXE> You could also try using Alis to find a channel.
[18:09] <arrayboltXE> !alis
[18:10] <ashu> okay
[18:10] <ashu> thanks
[18:42] <morgan-ubu2>  I have no sound. checked volume in yt and on the upper panel. What could be The Function that got changed?
[19:29] <ruser> is there a dedicated channel to wsl support by any chance?
[19:30] <leftyfb> ruser: you can try #windows-wsl
[19:32] <ruser> leftyfb: ty
[20:01] <morgan-ubu2> I have no sound. Is there a way I can test it like with system sounds?  mate 22.04
[20:04] <morganmate22> built in audio DISABLED but no choice to turn it on. What Thry offered isnt Fine.
[20:04] <sarnold> morganmate22: often, running pavucontrol can help you get things going again
[20:06] <morganmate22> I see output is dummy output. is it possible that this acer has no speaker inside? I dont get it. I just truned system notificatin sounds on. How do I instigate one to see if that works?
[20:06] <morganmate22> I know nothng about pavucontrol
[20:22] <rick89> Hi friends. I Installed Ubuntu DDE and later I uninstalled it and the computer no longer starts the GUI
[20:23] <rick89> I used startx but it sí doesn't work
[20:23] <oerheks> so, you uninstalled the gui/desktop, and now it does nto start
[20:23] <rick89> I had default Ubuntu
[20:24] <rick89> And then I installed DDE
[20:24] <rick89> Later I uninstalled it to go back to Gnome
[20:24] <oerheks> logout, i hope that the ubuntu/gnome desktop is still there
[20:24] <oerheks> select, and login
[20:25] <oerheks> else: reinstall
[20:25] <rick89> The computer starts with console
[20:25] <baldpope> does anyone know if there is a package for samba 4.17 for bionic ?
[20:25] <rick89> And the command startx does not work
[20:25] <baldpope> all i'm finding is 4.7.6
[20:26] <oerheks> baldpope, https://launchpad.net/samba/+packages 	2:4.7.6+dfsg~ubuntu-0ubuntu2.29
[20:26] <baldpope> yea - 4.7.6
[20:27] <oerheks> if you want that ancient version, find the source and build it yourself
[20:27] <baldpope> 4.17 not ancient ?
[20:27] <baldpope> or do you mean bionic being ancient?
[20:28] <leftyfb> baldpope: Ubuntu 18.04 from almost 5 years only has 4.7.6. If you want a later version of samba, I would recommend upgrading to a more modern release of ubuntu
[20:28] <oerheks> why do you ask for that ancient 4.17 version?
[20:30] <sarnold> rick89: try sudo dpkg-reconfigure gdm3   (or whatever display managers you've got installed)
[20:30] <baldpope> oerheks, are you high?
[20:31] <baldpope> 4.17.4 is the most recent stable
[20:32] <leftyfb> baldpope: you are correct, 4.7 is the latest. So much in fact that there are no Ubuntu releases with it available. The latest is 4.16.4 iw Ubuntu 22.10
[20:32] <oerheks> oh, indeed, but LTS would never get a newer branch, just bugfixes
[20:32] <leftyfb> baldpope: why do you need 4.17?
[20:32] <rick89> https://imgur.com/a/ifVqYIw
[20:32] <rick89> This is the result of command startx
[20:33] <baldpope> leftyfb, ty - it's not that I was looking for the absolute latest, just something newer than 4.7
[20:33] <leftyfb> baldpope: why?
[20:33] <oerheks> rick89, you logged into the old DDE session? logout, and change to gnome
[20:33] <rick89> I can't access GUI
[20:33] <rick89> I am stuck in the terminal when the computer boots
[20:34] <baldpope> leftyfb, following the doc there was a reference to issues if using older than 4.17 ; before I got too far down the installation path wanted to see if there was a newer package to work from
[20:35] <leftyfb> rick89: sudo apt install tasksel && sudo tasksel install ubuntu-desktop
[20:35] <baldpope> replacing and old 3.6.25 solaris based smb instance
[20:35] <leftyfb> baldpope: if you're replacing it with a new server, then install 22.04, not 18.04
[20:35] <sarnold> rick89: try sudo dpkg-reconfigure gdm3   (or whatever display managers you've got installed)
[20:36] <oerheks> baldpope, there is a ppa with 4.17, but carefull with ppa' s.... https://launchpad.net/~linux-schools/+archive/ubuntu/samba-latest
[20:36] <baldpope> leftyfb, yea - we had existing ubuntu 1804 templates in our vmware stack, but I can jump to 22 for this
[20:36] <leftyfb> baldpope: highly recommended
[20:37] <baldpope> oerheks, thanks for the link
[20:39] <rick89> It says "gdm.service is not active, cannot reload. Invoke-rc.d: unit script gdn3, action" reload" failed.
[20:40] <leftyfb> rick89: sudo apt install tasksel && sudo tasksel install ubuntu-desktop
[20:41]  * alkisg thinks tasks can also be installed like this nowadays: sudo apt install ubuntu-desktop^
[20:41] <rick89> https://imgur.com/a/x1R0oCx
[20:42] <leftyfb> I don't think that will pull in packages that are a depedency of it that were removed
[20:42] <leftyfb> rick89: try: sudo apt install --reinstall ubuntu-desktop
[20:43] <rick89> I did it but it does not want to start the GUI
[20:44] <leftyfb> rick89: try: sudo apt remove --purge gdm3 ; sudo apt install --reinstall ubuntu-desktop
[20:45] <alkisg> leftyfb: did you notice the DEEPIN_GFXMODE in the cmdline?
[20:45] <leftyfb> :/
[20:45] <leftyfb> soooo, not "default ubuntu" then?
[20:48] <alkisg> Google says that's Qt-based, I doubt it uses gdm3 then
[20:48] <leftyfb> alkisg: right, DDE probably killed gdm3
[20:56] <jhutchins> Just musing in terms of the new rocket launch schedules.  Latest one (RS1) was a kablooie, but nobody's posted images.
[20:57] <leftyfb> jhutchins: ?
[20:57] <jhutchins> Aaand, that would be the right buffer on the wrong channel.  Oops.
[20:58] <jhutchins> Track pads are such a blessing.
[21:07] <rick89> Finally the GUI started
[21:07] <rick89> I don't know how
[21:49] <teclast> Fgt Informatica Youtube


[19:45] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- tsimonq2 kc2bez teward, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4856 No packages are being considered! If you are preparing sources manually, please upload them to the PPA now
[20:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- tsimonq2 kc2bez teward, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4856 Preparing packages
[20:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- tsimonq2 kc2bez teward, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4856 Uploading build
[21:17] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- tsimonq2 kc2bez teward, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4856 Needs building (kinetic/liblxqt). Uploading build (kinetic/libqtxdg)
[23:36] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- tsimonq2 kc2bez teward, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4856 Dependency wait (kinetic/liblxqt). Uploading build (kinetic/libqtxdg)


[01:31] <LaserJock> sbalneav: you might want to have a look at Fedora's patches to sabayon at some point: http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=sabayon
[16:01] <primary> i just installed edubuntu and I am having trouble with fonts.  in some programs meny text does not appear.  How do I resolve this?
[18:10] <LaserJock> hi all
[19:42] <nubae> hi LaserJock
[19:42] <LaserJock> hi nubae
[19:42] <nubae> presenting edubuntu to a pedagogical school of Graz tomorrow... they are the ones that decide what to implement in the rest of the country
[19:45] <LaserJock> cool
[19:46] <alkisg> Good luck nubae! :)
[19:47] <nubae> thanks... have either of u tried the wiimote as whiteboard thing under ubuntu?
[19:47] <alkisg> Not me... don't have a wii....
[19:47] <nubae> u can buy a controller for 30 €
[19:47] <alkisg> (neither a projector! :))
[19:47] <nubae> which is all one needs
[19:48] <nubae> ah :-)
[19:48] <LaserJock> I don't have much of anything, period :-)
[19:48] <alkisg> Did you want to show them the wiimote?
[19:49] <LaserJock> no wii, no projector, no classroom, no students ... ;-)
[19:49] <nubae> not yet, no, but I thought its a pretty cool gadget to show
[19:49] <nubae> lol
[19:49] <nubae> in sugar we have something called classroom presenter
[19:49] <nubae> where u put up slides and can draw on them collaboratively
[19:49] <LaserJock> well, I guess I do have students, but no classroom, just a lab
[19:49] <nubae> its totally something that would pair up with the wiimote thing
[19:50] <alkisg> ...and maybe 10 remotes, one for each students? :D
[19:50] <nubae> well u can do 4 light points per remote
[19:51] <nubae> it works by putting an led in a pen end
[19:51] <LaserJock> so how exactly does this wiimote thing work?
[19:51] <alkisg> Hm... nice! So for small classrooms, 2-3 wiimotes are enough...
[19:52] <LaserJock> you hook the wiimote to a computer which then goes via projector to a witeboard?
[19:52] <nubae> well, it gets put behing the projector
[19:52] <nubae> behind
[19:52] <nubae> and it picks up light sources by bouncing infrared off it
[19:52] <nubae> so u use leds to do that
[19:53] <nubae> because the wii can do 4 remotes at once, u can use 4 concurrent pointers
[19:53] <nubae> so then u basically open any program that has ability to draw
[19:53] <nubae> and voila
[19:54] <nubae> no need for the whiteboard
[19:54] <nubae> thats the expensive part
[19:54] <LaserJock> I guess I'm still not getting it
[19:54] <LaserJock> so it ends up projecting what you're drawing in the program?
[19:54] <alkisg> LaserJock: there are some nice videos in youtube that demonstrate it...
[19:55] <nubae> a projector projects teh image
[19:55] <alkisg> E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKCrGvShZs
[19:55] <nubae> the infra red wii remote picks up the led as a point in space and draws
[19:55] <nubae> yeah u'll get it when u see it
[19:57] <nubae> but for presenting sugar or edubuntu, it would be very neat
[19:58] <nubae> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:Cpxo_beta1_ss_nav.jpg
[20:00] <alkisg> nubae, is sugar still in development, or it's been halted?
[20:00] <nubae> no its in development... sugarlabs has taken over everything
[20:00] <nubae> olpc is no longer involved really... or maybe a little on the hardware side
[20:01] <nubae> but like edubuntu, its a volunteer project now
[20:01] <nubae> education just isn't important enough
[20:01] <nubae> weapons first...
[20:01] <LaserJock> ok, one question though, how does the wiimote attach to the computer?
[20:02] <alkisg> That doesn't matter much, if it has something to offer, then people are going to work on it...
[20:02] <nubae> usb I believe
[20:02] <LaserJock> nubae: coolio
[20:07]  * LaserJock tries to think of what he'd do with a wiimote whiteboard
[20:11] <nubae> aren't u involved with chemistry classes or something like that?
[20:12] <LaserJock> kinda yeah
[20:12] <LaserJock> but, in the lab
[20:12] <LaserJock> we don't really use whiteboards much
[20:12] <nubae> well imagine this scenario... u draw the molecules and formulas and all that on the board
[20:12] <LaserJock> ok
[20:12] <nubae> and then it gets automatically sent as a screenshot to all your students
[20:13] <nubae> they then save that in their journal or whatever
[20:13] <nubae> I can see lots of applications to the whiteboard
[20:13] <LaserJock> hmm
[20:13] <LaserJock> but I don't see how that gains me a lot
[20:13] <LaserJock> right now I have a blackboard and my students have pens :-)
[20:13] <nubae> teh blackboard cant really be distributed to every student afterwards
[20:14] <LaserJock> that's why they have pens
[20:14] <nubae> but then the better note takers have an advantage
[20:14] <nubae> like this they can concentrate on what is going on at the board
[20:14] <LaserJock> hmm
[20:14] <nubae> and u can go at whatever pace u like
[20:15] <LaserJock> but aren't we trying to get better note taking skills?
[20:15] <nubae> I'm sure they get enough of that in the classes where that is warranted
[20:15] <nubae> like English, foreign languages, etc
[20:16] <nubae> Learning should be made easier, no?
[20:16] <LaserJock> well, yes and no
[20:16] <LaserJock> yes, learning what you're supposed to learn should be as easy as possible
[20:16] <LaserJock> but  you should still learn what you need to learn
[20:16] <LaserJock> and as a chemist still one of the biggest things I have to teach students is how to write and take notes
[20:17] <nubae> dotn u think u get that better being collaborative in teh classroom?
[20:17] <nubae> asking students to take over whatever u are teaching on the board...
[20:17] <nubae> or even from their computer terminal
[20:18] <nubae> there is no need really for pens... I just dont see that... every kid with a laptop is the way forward
[20:18] <LaserJock> well, frankly I think they just need to pay attention and try a little
[20:18] <nubae> in a controlled environment of course
[20:18] <LaserJock> for the stuff I do I really don't think laptops are going to replace pens any time soon
[20:18] <LaserJock> no doubt in some future time
[20:18] <nubae> my kids always paid attention when they knew they'd have to come up to the board and write something themselves
[20:18] <nubae> fear
[20:19] <LaserJock> presently I don't have time for that
[20:19] <LaserJock> I write, they write, I ask questions, we move on :-)
[20:19] <LaserJock> but my "teaching" situation is not the norm for sure
[20:20] <LaserJock> my environment is a laboratory and my "teaching" is mostly "hands-on"
[20:21] <nubae> ah right...
[20:21] <LaserJock> I'd like to get some netbooks to try out with a couple things
[20:21] <LaserJock> so far the students hate the computers
[20:21] <nubae> I'm sure u are not short of ideas...
[20:21] <LaserJock> they're rather do anything but use the computer
[20:21] <LaserJock> there are 2 computer-based labs that I think the wiimote thing might be cool
[20:22] <nubae> I think for maths it would be great
[20:22] <LaserJock> right now we just all go up to the computer lab and all 20+ students just struggle through a set of instructions in their little cubicle-like space
[20:23] <nubae> yeah, the non collaborative experience
[20:23] <LaserJock> I end up running around for 4 hrs helping people with the same problems
[20:23] <LaserJock> and I don't exactly teach them anything other than computers suck :-)
[20:24] <nubae> yeah I know that one too... I had the same showing how to use program X or program Y, until we started having collaborative sessions
[20:24] <nubae> via italc or projector
[20:25] <LaserJock> but one thing is that chemistry is *very* visual
[20:25] <LaserJock> it's the most geometric and visual of the natural/physical sciences
[20:25] <LaserJock> IMO at least
[20:25] <LaserJock> so one of the struggles is always trying to represent 3D via a whiteboard :-)
[20:26] <nubae> well.... one thing that is VERY cool with that technology
[20:26] <nubae> is being able to move 2 or 3 points at once
[20:26] <LaserJock> yeah
[20:26] <nubae> so u can rotate a 3d object in space very easily
[20:26] <nubae> zoom in, zoom out
[20:26] <LaserJock> I can see how this stuff could be cool
[20:27] <LaserJock> I just know that it would be a real struggle to get it going and to get people to use it
[20:27] <nubae> well, using it, I dont see so hard, making it work flawlessly, harder
[20:27] <LaserJock> I think most of the teachers would just turn it off and write on a whiteboard
[20:28] <LaserJock> we'd have to do quite a bit of training, which is something we're not very good at
[20:29] <LaserJock> trying to take a chemist and turn them into a teacher is hard enough, getting thing proficient with a computer is going to be tough :-)
[20:30] <nubae> yeah, guess so
[20:31] <LaserJock> it's getting the teachers who teach the teachers on board that's the trick :-)
[20:32] <nubae> right... thats what I'm doing now too
[20:32] <LaserJock> but maybe I can work on some demo's
[20:32] <LaserJock> I think this spring we'll have our linux lab maybe working
[20:32] <LaserJock> we need to upgrade ~15 machines to Intrepid first though :(
[20:33] <LaserJock> computers are such a pain ;-)
[20:33] <nubae> try clonezilla
[20:33] <nubae> it will upgrade all 15 at once in about an hour
[20:34] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if they're fresh installs or dist-upgrades
[20:34] <LaserJock> logging in to 15 computers and running update manager shouldn't take too long, it's just that it's gotta get done
[20:35] <LaserJock> then we fix AD authentication
[20:35] <LaserJock> then maybe we figure out printing
[20:35] <nubae> yeah but they need to download packages for each one
[20:35] <nubae> heh, printing should be plug and play
[20:35] <LaserJock> we have lots of bandwidth
[20:35] <LaserJock> "should"
[20:36] <LaserJock> we have huge amounts of printing problems with the windows machines
[20:36] <nubae> yeah.... I had one of these big massive industrial photocopiers that is also a printer
[20:36] <LaserJock> I'm hoping it just works in Xubuntu and it'll be a "hmm, the Windows machines never can print but the Linux ones work all the time"
[20:36] <nubae> think it was canon...
[20:37] <nubae> had to manually install the postscript drivers..
[20:37] <nubae> man was that a pain
[20:37] <LaserJock> right now in Windows you have to re-setup the printer every time the machine is rebooted
[20:37] <nubae> gosh
[20:37] <LaserJock> and it's not a trivial setup
[20:38] <LaserJock> if I could just find an LTSP server I could try that
[20:38] <LaserJock> but honestly I'm not sure if it's that great of an idea for us
[20:38] <LaserJock> as my feeling is that LTSP takes some work to setup and keep maintained
[20:39] <LaserJock> and I know when I leave there really isn't going to be much of anybody to maintain it
[20:41] <nubae> Its improved a lot... intrepid is pretty maintenance free
[22:19] <ball> If I want to install Edubuntu stand-alone, without ltsp, can I use the ordinary Xubuntu install CD instead of the alternate?
[22:20] <LaserJock> well, kinda
[22:20] <LaserJock> the Edubuntu CD is an addon to Ubuntu so it assumes ubuntu-desktop is installed
[22:21] <LaserJock> so you might have to pull dependencies off the net to install some stuff
[22:21] <LaserJock> also edubuntu-desktop depends on ubuntu-desktop so you probably don't want to install that
[22:22] <LaserJock> but say if you wanted Edubuntu without ltsp you could use the Ubuntu Desktop CD just fine
[22:22] <ball> Hmm... perhaps I should install (Gnome) Ubuntu then instead of Xubuntu
[22:22] <LaserJock> kind of depends on what you're trying to do
[22:22] <ball> Is that what you suggest?
[22:23] <ball> LaserJock: I'm preparing a laptop that's going to Haiti
[22:23] <LaserJock> ball: not a very big hard drive?
[22:23] <ball> LaserJock: I don't know yet, I haven't booted it.
[22:23] <ball> Probably not tiny though, it comes with a FireWire port
[22:23] <LaserJock> because if you have plenty of diskspace you can install both
[22:24] <LaserJock> and then the user can log into either Gnome or Xfce depending how well it performs
[22:24] <LaserJock> or you could install Kubuntu and just install selected educational apps
[22:26] <ball> brb, I have to switch seats.
[22:38] <ball> Does the Edubuntu CD differ much from edubuntu-desktop?
[22:44] <LaserJock> well, the CD has all the stuff that's in edubuntu-desktop and a little bit more
[22:44] <LaserJock> but the CD itself lets you also pick individual apps in the GUI that pops up
[22:45] <LaserJock> so either way (CD or apt-get) will get you stuff
[22:49] <ball> It's a shame I have to install Ubuntu: that means two user interfaces to support instead of one.
[22:51] <LaserJock> well, you can do xubuntu
[22:52] <LaserJock> and then apt-get the apps you want
[22:52] <ball> What do the Edubuntu CD and edubuntu-desktop offer over and above the applications?
[22:53] <LaserJock> we'll they're meant to pull things together
[22:53] <LaserJock> make it easier to install on an Ubuntu desktop
[22:54] <LaserJock> the CD lets people in low-bandwith countries share the educational apps
[22:56] <ball> That's a good idea, I should send install CDs with the machine.
[23:00] <LaserJock> but we sort of have to make some assumption on what's already installed on the user's machine
[23:00] <LaserJock> otherwise we'd have to include *everything*
[23:02]  * ball nods
[23:14] <ball> I'll try Ubuntu on the laptop, though I know it's more heavyweight than Xubuntu
[23:17] <LaserJock> it is, but it if it runs ok it's more featureful, IMO
[23:21] <ball> I'll try to convince myself that's a good thing ;-)\
[23:24] <LaserJock> well, I think for kidos it's maybe easier to use
[23:27] <ball> "more featureful" usually means less easy to use in my experience.
[23:29] <LaserJock> perhaps
[23:33] <calimer> sandbox did it!!!!
[23:33] <calimer> top 100 at moddb for mod/game of the year!!
[23:33] <calimer> out of 9k!!!
[23:36] <ball> I'll give it a try anyway.
[23:36] <ball> Thanks a lot for your help LaserJock
[23:37] <calimer> and oh yeah LaserJock cool article
[23:50] <LaserJock> calimer: thanks
[23:51] <LaserJock> calimer: and congrats!
[23:51] <calimer> thanks!!
[23:51] <calimer> now we just need votes for top 10 :D