[04:04] <MarioMeyer> heya ealden
[04:04] <MarioMeyer> can i pvt?
[04:04] <ealden> hi MarioMeyer
[04:04] <ealden> sure
[12:53] <anandaputra> hi all..
[12:53] <anandaputra> is there any asiabusinesstour team member here?
[05:49] <janimo> ajmitch hi
[05:49] <janimo> you know moderators for this chan?
[06:37] <frans-th> hi anyone
[06:38] <frans-th> hande here?
[08:48] <hybrid> when is the Xubuntu meeting?
[08:49] <raphink> topic
[08:49] <raphink> ;)
[08:53] <technolalia> hybrid: Xubuntu meeting will be after the Tech Board meeting, I presume
[08:53] <ranf> hi
[08:53] <raphink> hi ranf
[08:53] <mjg59> Keybuk: Who are we expecting tonight?
[08:53] <janimo> hybrid in an hour
[08:54] <Keybuk> mjg59: me, thee and mdzee
[08:54] <mjg59> Keybuk: Cool
[08:54] <janimo> could somebody add that to topic so people don't  start asking during TB meeting?
[08:54] <janimo> xubuntu meeting as 21:00 UTC tonight
[08:55] <ogra> janimo, that will clash with TB i guess ... unless we stay below an hour with TB
[08:55] <mjg59> janimo: You're optimistic about how quickly we'll be done :)
[08:55] <mjg59> (Though I'd like to be somewhere at 9, so I'll try my best)
[08:55] <janimo> well no harm in xubu people sitting in the TB meting :)
[08:56] <sivang> what's those changes to the control file fieldsI'm reading on the agenda?
[08:56] <ajmitch> there's a few things to argue^Wdiscuss on the agenda today, so it doesn't look to be under an hour :)
[08:56] <janimo> anyway IRC is all about cross-talk we can hold'em simultaneously
[08:56] <ajmitch> sivang: we'll get to that in the meeting
[08:56] <mjg59> janimo: Please don't make me hurt you
[08:56] <mjg59> :)
[08:56] <lucas> sivang: some DDs want to be removed from the Maintainer field, basically
[08:57] <janimo> mjg59, I blame society for all I said before
[08:57] <hybrid> ok ty technolalia and janimo
[08:57] <raphink> lol
[08:57] <raphink> hi sistpoty && StevenK
[08:57] <sistpoty> hi folks ;)
[08:58] <StevenK> It isn't really working.
[08:58] <sivang> ajmitch: you have a link to a relevant d-d ml thread?
[08:58] <StevenK> Argh!!!
[08:58] <StevenK> Don't *do* that.
[08:59] <Hobbsee> hehe!  that should wake you up!
[08:59] <lucas> sivang: looking for it
[08:59] <StevenK> That's *brutal*.
[08:59] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Is it 7 for you, or earlier?
[08:59] <azeem> StevenK: do you mean ice cold water, or posting links to debian-devel?
[08:59] <Hobbsee> it's 7am, yes - but i didnt have to wake up to start with
[08:59] <StevenK> Heh
[08:59] <hub> hi
[08:59] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Where on the east coast?
[08:59] <raphink> hi hub
[09:00] <hub> sorry, I'm late or not yet
[09:00] <hub> right on time
[09:00] <raphink> yep
[09:00] <Hobbsee> StevenK: sydney
[09:00] <raphink> hasnt' begun yet
[09:00] <raphink> :)
[09:00] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Ah hah - me too.
[09:00] <Keybuk> note: as it's after 6pm, my net connection is erratic at best and I'm going to be getting everything in large pulses at best, disconnecting at worst
[09:00] <StevenK> azeem: At the moment, -devel is coma-inducing.
[09:00] <raphink> ouch :s
[09:01] <StevenK> Keybuk: And your ISP considers that a feature?
[09:01] <sivang> lucas: I can see JOey's thread linked from the ageanda page, is that enough?
[09:01] <Keybuk> StevenK: my ISP blames the Telco who supply my ADSL line
[09:01] <Keybuk> my telco say it's in their Terms & Conditions that the phone line may eventually degrade and be unable to support ADSL
[09:01] <Keybuk> etc.
[09:01] <raphink> sivang: that's far enough to take the risk for a warflame if we begin talking about it :(
[09:01] <StevenK> Ahhh. "We're passing the buck since we have no idea."
[09:01] <raphink> s/warflame/flamewar/
[09:01] <Keybuk> yeah, the only solution would appear to be local-loop, and that's frakking expensive
[09:01] <lucas> sivang: mdz posted a summary of the possibilities
[09:02] <lucas> sivang: it's a good start
[09:02] <Keybuk> upwards of 100 GBP a month
[09:02] <StevenK> Whee
[09:02] <raphink> 100 GBP for theconnection??
[09:02] <sivang> lucas: oh, it's on the same page then - 3 possibilities
[09:02] <Keybuk> raphink: yup
[09:02] <raphink> Keybuk: ouch
[09:02] <StevenK> Our work connection is ~ 200GBP per month
[09:03] <hub> StevenK: office != home
[09:03] <StevenK> Mmmmmm, 2Mbit SHDSL.
[09:03] <StevenK> Well, yeah. :-)
[09:03] <raphink> Keybuk: in France pay 30 for 20Mbps ADSL + free phone + 100 channels on TV
[09:03] <Keybuk> I pay nothing at the moment
[09:03] <Keybuk> so I guess I am technically getting what I pay for ;)
[09:03] <StevenK> Heh
[09:03] <mdz> good morning
[09:03] <hub> raphink: I paid nothing when I had them
[09:03] <ajmitch> morning mdz
[09:03] <raphink> hi mdz
[09:03] <sivang> morning mdz
[09:03] <raphink> hub: you mean Free ?
[09:03] <hub> raphink: glitch in the systeme
[09:03] <lucas> sivang: it doesn't seem to be on ubuntu-motu
[09:03] <hub> raphink: yeah
[09:03] <mdz> I'm assuming that sabdfl isn't going to be able to make it due to travelling
[09:03] <raphink> hub: :D :D
[09:03] <hub> hey mdz
[09:04] <elmo> mdz: safe bet
[09:04] <sivang> that wouldn't be a first timer  :)
[09:04] <raphink> hi elmo
[09:04] <hub> hey elmo
[09:04] <Keybuk> raphink: I have ADSL now ... and that's what's not working
[09:04] <ajmitch> where is sabdfl travelling to this week?
[09:04] <raphink> Keybuk: ic
[09:04] <mdz> looks like we have a full agenda
[09:04] <Keybuk> raphink: I need to get something other than ADSL to have a reliable net connection
[09:04] <raphink> ajmitch: the moon?
[09:04] <ogra> ajmitch, asia tour ?
[09:04] <sivang> ajmitch: asia somewhere I think
[09:04] <ajmitch> right
[09:04] <Keybuk> mdz: does sabdfl ever make it even when he's not travelling? :)
[09:04] <hub> Keybuk: cable?
[09:04] <mdz> Keybuk: sometimes, yes
[09:05] <sivang> Keybuk: lol :) there were a couple of times IIRC
[09:05] <mdz> so let's get started
[09:05] <mjg59> Ok
[09:05] <raphink> ok
[09:05] <Keybuk> hub: no cable in my area, annoyingly
[09:05] <mjg59> What order are we doing things in today, then?
[09:05] <hub> Keybuk: :-/
[09:05] <mdz> I figure the order on the wiki is as good as any
[09:05] <Keybuk> hub: the alternative is for an ISP to actually takeover the line from the exchange to my house and repair it ... BT won't do it
[09:05] <sivang> pitti's sudo stuff first
[09:06] <mjg59> Cool. Core candidates.
[09:06] <mdz> it looks like there are a few people who have proposed themselves for ubuntu-core-dev who haven't otherwise appeared in the community
[09:06] <mjg59> dsaa isn't here, anyone know anything about the other two?
[09:06] <ajmitch> no core candidates who are motus already afaict
[09:06] <raphink> mjg59: I'd say at least one core candidate...
[09:06] <mdz> dholbach: are you around?
[09:06] <dholbach> yes
[09:06] <dholbach> I will mail them.
[09:07] <mdz> dholbach: at a previous meeting, you helped us with contacting these folks and explaining
[09:07] <mdz> dholbach: could you make that a todo item for the monday before each TB meeting?
[09:07] <dholbach> Ok.
[09:07] <mdz> thanks
[09:07] <Keybuk> what are/should we do about the backlog of existing ones?
[09:07] <Keybuk> didn't we talk about removing people if they failed to come to meetings/
[09:07] <mdz> dholbach is going to mail them, and then we'll remove them
[09:08] <mdz> we agreed that folks should apply for MOTU before core
[09:08] <Keybuk> hmm, we could do with a "notes" field for each person
[09:08] <hub> btw, a quick note. I'm at the office now, I hope that nothing preempt my sitting at this keyboard for the meeting
[09:08] <Keybuk> yeah
[09:08] <mjg59> Right. developer candidates?
[09:08] <raphink> yep
[09:08] <raphink> :)
[09:08] <raphink> 3 french people at least :)
[09:09] <mjg59> sivang, hub, lucas, raphink, vuntz, StevenK, anyone else?
[09:09] <mdz> mjg59: were any candidates processed at the meeting I missed?
[09:09] <raphink> StevenK: that's four :)
[09:09] <mdz> I'm not sure which of those in the queue are new and which are stale
[09:09] <StevenK> I added myself two days ago or so.
[09:09] <mjg59> mdz: I think we deferred a couple, it was a while ago now
[09:09] <hub> raphink: I consider myself Canuck now
[09:09] <lucas> I saw in the last TB meeting's log that vuntz said he didn't have enough time to join the team, and he asked to be removed from the list. did he change his mind ?
[09:09] <raphink> hub: oh ok ;)
[09:09] <dholbach> lucas: I think not.
[09:09] <raphink> hub: you're still french-speaking though
[09:10] <sivang> I'm stale , I need to do more MOTU contribs before this can be evaluted again.
[09:10] <mdz> mjg59: so that was what, 2005-12-20?
[09:10] <mjg59> mdz: Yup
[09:10] <Keybuk> mjg59: we definitely processed some at the last TB meeting
[09:10] <dholbach> sivang and vuntz can be safely removed.
[09:10] <mdz> that gives us:
[09:10] <mdz>  jjmmma  	 Lucas Nussbaum  	 Kiew  	 Dino Solon A. Agcambot  	 Hubert Figuiere  	 Raphal Pinson  	 Manu Cornet  	 freeflying  	 Steve Kowalik
[09:10] <sivang> dholbach: thanks
[09:10] <mdz> hub, lucas, StevenK are here
[09:10] <mdz> anyone else?
[09:11] <raphink> mdz: i'm here too
[09:11] <lucas> raphink is Raphal Pinson
[09:11] <mdz> ok
[09:11] <raphink> ty lucas
[09:11] <mdz> looks like lucas is up first
[09:11] <lucas> ok
[09:11] <mdz> lucas: care to tell us a bit about yourself and what you've been up to?
[09:11] <lucas> I've prepared a wiki page to summarize my candidacy. It's probably faster. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum/TBCandidacy if you want
[09:12] <Keybuk> ooh, shiny
[09:12] <lucas> 24 years old, french, phd student in CS
[09:12] <mdz> I've noticed you've done quite a bit of wiki content
[09:12] <hub> I don't have a summary for my candidacy
[09:12] <lucas> I've been working on MOTU-related stuff and debian collaboration stuff
[09:13] <lucas> (like working with raphael hertzog to start flamewars :/)
[09:13] <raphink> hub: me neither ;)
[09:13] <raphink> lucas: hehe
[09:13] <mdz> heh
[09:13] <raphink> StevenK: you're not the only one so that's fine ;)
[09:14] <mjg59> lucas: So what Ruby stuff have you actually been doing so far?
[09:14] <ogra> and lucas is definately very encouraged and around a lot all day ...
[09:14] <lucas> in Ubuntu, just a few merges that were needed
[09:14] <mjg59> Is stuff being significantly altered inside Ubuntu, or is it mainly helping to merge stuff from Debian?
[09:14] <lucas> in Debian, packaging of stuff I'm upstream for (feed2imap, libfeedparser-ruby, libxmpp4r-ruby)
[09:15] <lucas> merging stuff only
[09:15] <mjg59> Ok, cool
[09:15] <mdz> lucas: which parts of MultiDistroTools are your work?
[09:15] <lucas> mdz: everything
[09:15] <raphink> lucas also provided a nice web interface to work with merges more easily lately
[09:15] <mdz> nice work
[09:15] <lucas> mjg59: since I have 'contacts' with debian ruby maintainers, it's easier to keep the divergence low
[09:16] <raphink> http://revu.tauware.de/~lucas/versions/ very useful :)
[09:16] <mdz> lucas: you note on your wiki page that you aren't sure you'll be able to contribute in the long term.  do you care to elaborate?
[09:16] <lucas> I'm sure I'll be able to contribute on the long term.
[09:16] <lucas> what I'm not sure of, is whether I'll be able to do general MOTU work on the long term (merge/syncs)
[09:17] <lucas> however, I hope to be able to help when the backlog is quite big, for example
[09:17] <Keybuk> is this because of an expected lack of time, or other reasons?
[09:17] <lucas> yeah, lack of time, as always
[09:17] <mdz> lucas: I see that you're in the Debian NM queue
[09:17] <lucas> working more on Ubuntu means working less on other projects or my thesis ;)
[09:17] <Keybuk> but you believe you have time now?
[09:17] <lucas> yeah, I have
[09:18] <mdz> lucas: how does your intention to join Debian fit into your strategy for improving collaboration between the projects?
[09:18] <lucas> hehe a timeline is needed here
[09:18] <lucas> beginning of the summer: I start packaging stuff inside pkg-ruby-extras debian team
[09:19] <lucas> then, I get on NM, since you better start early
[09:19] <lucas> then I discovered the bad state of ruby in breezy (that was in september)
[09:19] <lucas> so I got involved into MOTU
[09:20] <lucas> I've been using Ubuntu since no-name-yet.com, but when everything looks fine, you don't feel the need to get involved
[09:20] <lucas> (that's all)
[09:21] <lucas> ;)
[09:21] <mdz> thanks
[09:21] <lucas> I don't think I'll be a DD soon, become of the average time you usually spend in NM
[09:21] <mdz> would anyone like to say anything further about lucas' involvement with MOTU so far?
[09:21] <sistpoty> as orgra already pointed out, lucas has been very encouraged on motu-issues
[09:21] <lucas> being a DD probably help with debian collaboration, but it's mainly human issues currently, as I see it
[09:22] <crimsun> lucas's MDT have been quite helpful, along with sistpoty's, in the Dapper merges. I use them both constantly.
[09:22] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: I think that's sufficient discussion; agreed?
[09:22] <Keybuk> agree
[09:22] <sistpoty> oh, yep. he did really rocking work with it
[09:22] <mjg59> mdz: Yup
[09:23] <mdz> votes?
[09:23] <mjg59> +1 from me
[09:23] <sivang> crimsun: are they a better incarniation of the motu-tools package?
[09:23] <mdz> +1
[09:23] <Keybuk> +1 also
[09:23] <dholbach> Welcome lucas!
[09:23] <lucas> :-) thank you all.
[09:23] <ogra> sivang, nope, another set of tools
[09:23] <mdz> lucas: welcome
[09:23] <sistpoty> welcome lucas :)
[09:23] <ogra> welcome lucas
[09:23] <raphink> :D
[09:23] <mdz> hub: you're next
[09:23] <hub> ok
[09:24] <StevenK> That sounded omnious.
[09:24] <mdz> StevenK: ;-)
[09:24] <mdz> hub: you maintain abiword?
[09:24] <sistpoty> though I haven't seen many packages from hub (didn't have time to review more), what I've seen was very clear and good packaging
[09:25] <Keybuk> hub was at UBZ, iirc.
[09:25] <ogra> mdz, he's upstream :)
[09:25] <hub> mdz: as upstream, I'm one of the maintainers, yes
[09:25] <mdz> Keybuk: yes
[09:25] <Keybuk> came to several of my BOFs
[09:25] <dholbach> I'm very happy with hub's contributions. He worked on a bunch of photo tools and libraries, he works well with upstream, his packaging improved over the weeks, and I'd personally be very happy to have him on board.
[09:25] <hub> Keybuk: I was
[09:25] <ajmitch> he even hosted a drinking BOF there
[09:25] <ogra> at home :)
[09:25] <hub> ajmitch: and pizza BOF
[09:25] <dholbach> Yeah  :)
[09:25] <mdz> hub: do you have any specific interests or plans for Ubuntu contributions that you can tell us about?
[09:25] <sivang> hub: in UBZ ? :)
[09:25] <mjg59> hub: Your Launchpad page doesn't go into too much detail - what have you been up to in Ubuntu?
[09:26] <hub> mdz: currently I'm trying to focus on providing various tools for digital photography
[09:26] <hub> and I have a bunch of packages still pending on REVU
[09:26] <ogra> carrying over your knowledge from gnome  ? :)
[09:27] <ogra> hub is the well known photo tools guy in gnome ... and i'm really happy he wants to take such tasks in ubuntu as well :)
[09:28] <hub> ogra: I'm not espacially gnome centric for the tools
[09:28] <mdz> hub: you organized MOTUPhoto?
[09:28] <hub> mdz: I creat the team
[09:28] <mjg59> hub: So, do you think it's possible to provide a "just work" atmosphere for the photography field?
[09:28] <hub> created
[09:28] <ogra> hub, they are not QT based :)
[09:28] <hub> mjg59: that is my goal. Have the tools ready for use
[09:28] <mdz> hub: what is your opinion of f-spot?
[09:29] <hub> mdz: f-spot is a great user app
[09:29] <hub> I installed Mono just for that reason
[09:29] <hub> I'm talking regularly with lewing, the upstream developer
[09:29] <mdz> what do you think is the best way to get photo functionality to Just Work in Ubuntu, as it does on the Mac platform?
[09:30] <hub> mdz: enhance libgphoto2 to work even more seemlessly
[09:31] <hub> and have the application use it for everything
[09:31] <mdz> currently we launch gthumb when a camera is attached, but I have never been very happy about its level of functionality
[09:31] <mdz> I launched it just now and it crashed during startup ;-)
[09:31] <hub> hew
[09:31] <hub> I'll check that
[09:31] <raphink> hehe
[09:31] <janimo> mdz, use a stable distro :)
[09:31] <Mithrandir> my main gripe with gthumb is that it's slow and memory-hungry.
[09:31] <hub> I don't really work this way
[09:31] <hub> maybe I should try it harder
[09:31] <ajmitch> Mithrandir: so is f-spot at times
[09:31] <hub> Mithrandir: f-spot is faster IMHO
[09:32] <mdz> hub: what way do you mean?
[09:32] <ajmitch> reminds me, I should upload 0.1.7 now
[09:32] <hub> I use a card reader, pop the card in, copy the files
[09:32] <Keybuk> I'd like f-spot's "new startup and import" feature to actually infer information from my carefully constructed hierarchy of directory names
[09:32] <Keybuk> right now it imports my thousands of photos and gives me that "now you have to tag them" look
[09:32] <mdz> hub: yes, that's what I do as well.  however, I'd like to make things work well for a broader class of users
[09:32] <ogra> Keybuk, you can switch to directory view
[09:32] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: I don't want photo apps to "manage my collection", I want to look at pics.
[09:32] <Keybuk> ogra: that kinda defeats the point though, especailly if you now import new things with f-spot and tag them
[09:33] <ajmitch> quickly getting OT :)
[09:33] <mdz> we needn't get into too much detail right now, though
[09:33] <mdz> ajmitch: ;-)
[09:33] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: satisfied with the amount of discussion?
[09:33] <hub> mdz: I must admit that it is the best user case to have a program the ask about importing the pictures form the camera when you connect it
[09:33] <pitti> hub: that's what shuold happen ATM
[09:33] <Keybuk> yup, I'm good
[09:34] <mdz> pitti: it does, but gthumb has some issues
[09:34] <hub> I had plans to write a "gnome-photo-importer"
[09:34] <mjg59> mdz: Yup
[09:34] <pitti> hub: g-v-m asks about importing and calls gthumb if the user wnats
[09:34] <mdz> ok, votes?
[09:34] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[09:34] <hub> to copy  the picture automatically
[09:34] <mdz> +1
[09:34] <mjg59> +1
[09:34] <mdz> hub: congratulations
[09:34] <ajmitch> welcome, hub :)
[09:34] <raphink> :)
[09:34] <hub> pitti: yeah, but mdz just said it was crashing
[09:34] <hub> mdz: thanks
[09:34] <ogra> hub, http://www.grawert.net/software/pimp/
[09:34] <mdz> hub: and now I have to go and file a proper bug report after the meeting ;-)
[09:34] <ogra> hub, could need a python rewrite ;)
[09:34] <Keybuk> mdz: good luck!
[09:34] <ogra> hub, and welcome
[09:34] <hub> ogra: eh
[09:35] <mdz> raphink: you're up
[09:35] <raphink> OK I have prepared a 4 paragraphs intro to paste ;)
[09:35] <hub> ogra: I'd rewrite it in C++ :-/
[09:35] <raphink> I got involved in MOTU things mostly by packaging new stuff for Ubuntu (mostly KDE packages) in october. My work in Ubuntu is documented on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson . I haven't really had the time to change the motivation part that I put before being a member, but it sums up why I want to be a MOTU, too.
[09:35] <dholbach> Excellent, hub!
[09:35] <raphink> After packaging for some time and putting my packages on REVU, I noticed the queue was pretty slow on REVU, and wanted to help a bit. So I reviewed some packages myself and sent the comments to the packagers, forwarding them to some MOTUs. After I did that with a few packages, I was given review rights on REVU and have been using it so far to review more directly on the website.
[09:35] <ogra> hub, fine as well
[09:35] <raphink> I have also contributed to syncing/merging packages, although not as much as packaging/reviewing.
[09:35] <raphink> Finally, I have been working on the MOTU related documentation on the wiki, mostly on the REVU page, on the packaging and reviewing tips, and more recently on creating a Debian contribution page together with lucas.
[09:35] <mdz> raphink: that's great, it seems like REVU always needs more reviewers
[09:36] <raphink> I do my best :)
[09:36] <lucas> (url: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian )
[09:36] <raphink> ty lucas
[09:36] <mdz> Riddell: any feedback on raphink's involvement with KDE/Kubuntu?
[09:36] <ajmitch> yes, us existing MOTUs don't do enough reviewing to keep up
[09:36] <raphink> mdz: now it would help even more if I could advocate and upload packages too
[09:36] <sistpoty> raphink did some very nice kde packages, and his reviews are of good quality
[09:36] <mjg59> raphink: What sort of packages do you plan on uploading?
[09:37] <raphink> mjg59: I mean being able to upload the advocated packages from REVU
[09:37] <raphink> right now i can only criticize the packages on REVU
[09:37] <mjg59> raphink: Ok, cool
[09:37] <raphink> put comments and so on
[09:37] <raphink> but when I feel they're ready
[09:37] <mjg59> Any plans for independent packaging?
[09:37] <raphink> i can't do more than just telling the guy to ask a MOTu gently
[09:37] <raphink> mjg59: I have 8 packages in Dapper already
[09:37] <mjg59> Excellent
[09:37] <raphink> I also have my own project on alioth
[09:38] <raphink> which is called Ichthux
[09:38] <raphink> it's a CDD aimed to christians
[09:38] <raphink> when i began it I didn't know much about Debian systems yet
[09:38] <raphink> so it's a bit stalled right now
[09:38] <raphink> but I plan to improve it and get the packages in Debian and Ubuntu in the future maybe
[09:38] <raphink> just as Debian Jr. or Debian Med
[09:39] <ogra> or edubuntu, xubuntu ;)
[09:39] <raphink> yep exactly ;)
[09:39] <mdz> raphink: are you a Debian developer or in the NM queue?
[09:39] <raphink> no i'm not
[09:39] <raphink> I considered it a few months ago
[09:39] <raphink> and didn't do it at the time
[09:39] <raphink> and then got involved in Ubuntu
[09:39] <raphink> I haven't considered applying for DD seriously any recently
[09:40] <raphink> and I still need to get my packages in Debian
[09:40] <mdz> well, becoming a DD would be the ideal way to get your packages into debian, of course ;-)
[09:40] <raphink> thankfully I know some DDs who can sponsor my work, within Ichthux
[09:40] <mdz> oh, good
[09:40] <raphink> yes mdz I know that :)
[09:40] <raphink> this is future plans :)
[09:40] <raphink> right now I have to have Ichthux administrated by a DD on alioth
[09:40] <raphink> since they wouldn't let a non-DD rule it
[09:41] <raphink> SynrG has been my mentor even since april actually
[09:41] <raphink> and now co-administrates Ichthux on alioth withme
[09:41] <raphink> :)
[09:42] <raphink> (yes I can witness there are very nice DDs around that like Ubuntu even if not involved in it :))
[09:42] <sivang> raphink: Ben is very nice indeed :)
[09:42] <raphink> sivang: :)
[09:43] <mdz> dholbach,ogra: anything to say?
[09:43] <ogra> raphink, is very busy in the motu world and around every day since some weeks ...
[09:44] <ogra> err, months ?
[09:44] <dholbach> mdz: I was very happy, when he jumped into REVUing and looking at his packages made me happy too.
[09:44] <raphink> ogra: time goes by :)
[09:44] <lucas> I've been working with raphink on some merges/syncs and some documentation. He has really been hyperactive those last weeks. I really enjoy working with him. His work has always been of high quality.
[09:44] <ogra> in any case he's a good teamworker
[09:45] <dholbach> And he helped actively to respond to questions in the channel.
[09:45] <ogra> ...and would be very valuable for motu
[09:45] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: ready?
[09:45] <mjg59> Yup
[09:46] <mdz> votes
[09:46] <mjg59> +1 form me
[09:46] <Keybuk> yup
[09:46] <mdz> +1 here
[09:46] <dholbach> raphink: welcome to the team!
[09:46] <raphink> :D
[09:46] <raphink> ty :)
[09:46] <ogra> congrats raphink
[09:46] <mdz> raphink: welcome aboard
[09:46] <sistpoty> raphink: congrats
[09:46] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[09:46] <ajmitch> well done, welcome
[09:46] <raphink> thanks ogra && sistpoty :)
[09:46] <raphink> :) :)
[09:47] <mdz> StevenK: ready?
[09:47] <StevenK> Yup.
[09:47] <StevenK> Well, as much as I can be.
[09:47] <mdz> I'm familiar with your work in Debian, thanks for that
[09:47] <mdz> and I see you've done some uploads to Ubuntu recently; who has sponsored those for you?
[09:47] <StevenK> Multiple MOTUs, notably Mithrandir, ajmitch and \sh.
[09:48] <StevenK> crimsun: Oh, I didn't see you there.
[09:48] <StevenK> See, many?
[09:48] <ogra> :)
[09:48] <ajmitch> from what I can tell, he certainly knows what he's doing :)
[09:48] <sistpoty> I can't really say anything about his skillz... I'd need higher skills myself to rate StevenK's ;
[09:48] <sistpoty> +)
[09:48] <mdz> StevenK: given your background you're obviously familiar with packaging practices ;-)
[09:48] <StevenK> Hell, I wrote a package checker.
[09:48] <StevenK> :-)
[09:48] <mdz> right
[09:49] <Mithrandir> SK++
[09:49] <StevenK> Er, am writing one.
[09:49] <Keybuk> StevenK: yes, could you not do that again :)
[09:49] <mdz> StevenK: how did you become interested in contributing to Ubuntu directly?
[09:49] <sivang> lol, but she has a nice name :)
[09:50] <Mithrandir> fwiw, I've been happy with what I've seen from SK, both technically; he knows his ropes well as well as socially, helping other people in -motu.
[09:50] <ogra> ++
[09:50] <dholbach> Apart from that, I was amazed by how fast and well he integrated into the team and worked with the processes we have and helped others to get into the MOTU world as well.
[09:50] <ogra> (especially for the last part ++)
[09:51] <StevenK> mdz: I've been curious about Ubuntu since Hoary or so, and a few months ago (I think), I tried a live CD, and was impressed. I started hanging out in -motu and helping out. A week later I installed Breezy and dealt with the culture shock from moving from unstable to well, stable.
[09:51] <ogra> lol
[09:51] <Mithrandir> StevenK: you should try the new live cd.  Much faster and shinier.
[09:51] <ajmitch> and you couldn't bear not dist-upgrading, so you went to dapper?
[09:51] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: we're running a bit long already; any questions you'd like to ask StevenK?
[09:51] <StevenK> That's actually on my TODO list.
[09:51] <ogra> if you dont use ppc :P
[09:52] <pitti> StevenK: just install dapper to get the nice cozy feeling of brokenness again :)
[09:52] <Keybuk> StevenK: how will you balance working on Debian and for Ubuntu
[09:52] <Keybuk> s/for/on/
[09:52] <sivang> pitti: not too much though :)
[09:52] <StevenK> Keybuk: Ignore Debian and work on Ubuntu? Seems to be working for now.
[09:52] <StevenK> In all seriousness, most of my packages in Debian take care of themselves.
[09:53] <ogra> wow, how did you manage that ?
[09:53] <raphink> pitti: hehe
[09:53] <StevenK> Either I'm upstream, or the upstream release very slowly.
[09:53] <mdz> StevenK: so you're interested in working on a different set of packages in Ubuntu, then?  any particular area of focus that interests you?
[09:54] <StevenK> Not any particular area. I'll fight for interesting packages to merge/sync, but I'll work on anything.
[09:54] <StevenK> It's just packaging, and packaging is fun.
[09:54] <raphink> :)
[09:54] <mdz> ok, any further discussion?
[09:55] <Keybuk> so, out of interest, why would you want to do this work for Ubuntu and not for Debian?
[09:55] <mjg59> I don't think I've got any relevant questions
[09:55] <StevenK> Mainly because the work ethic in Ubuntu is much nicer.
[09:55] <ogra> :)
[09:55] <StevenK> I've become a little upset by Debian recently.
[09:56] <mdz> it's easier in a small organization
[09:56] <StevenK> Reading -{private,devel,project} has become a chore.
[09:56] <mdz> we'll have to face many of Debian's problems as time goes on, I expect
[09:56] <mdz> hopefully with the benefit of Debian's experience, but face them nonetheless
[09:56] <ajmitch> the MOTU team will inevitably run into scalability issues
[09:56] <StevenK> ajmitch: I thought we had already? :-)
[09:56] <ajmitch> StevenK: we have the problem of too few still
[09:57] <ajmitch> once we get too many, other issues show up :)
[09:57] <mdz> ok, need to move on to the discussion topics on the agenda
[09:57] <mdz> votes?
[09:58] <Keybuk> ++
[09:58] <mdz> +1 from me based on Debian history, recent uploads and feedback from MOTU
[09:58] <mjg59> +1
[09:58] <dholbach> Welcome to the team StevenK!
[09:58] <mjg59> Cool
[09:58] <StevenK> Thanks!
[09:58] <mdz> StevenK: congrats
[09:58] <pitti> StevenK: welcome
[09:58] <ogra> yay, welcome StevenK !
[09:58] <mdz> pitti: still awake?
[09:58] <mjg59> pitti: Sudo help? Could you outline what that actually involves?
[09:58] <pitti> mdz: barely :)
[09:58] <pitti> yes
[09:58] <pitti> The problem: we want to make it easier for first-time Ubuntu users to find out about the root whereabouts, since it's a FAQ.
[09:58] <pitti> currently proposed idea: sudo writes a stamp (~/.sudo_admin_successful, or whatever) if the user ran sudo successfully, and a snippet in /etc/profile gives a short help message ('Use "sudo <command>" to execute a command as root') as long as the stamp file does not exist.
[09:59] <pitti> (NB that this was not *my* proposal)
[09:59] <sistpoty> congrats StevenK :)
[09:59] <pitti> some people (Mithrandir, fabbione) did not really like this approach, both principally, and technically
[09:59] <mdz> this was sabdfl's proposal, which he discussed with me
[09:59] <pitti> I propose to discuss the general approach first before we come down to the implementation; Mithrandir, what would you propose instead?
[09:59] <Keybuk> hmm, to me, if a user opens a Terminal and doesn't know how to become root -- or where to look in order to know, they probably shouldn't be trying to be root
[09:59] <mdz> the goal of this approach is to inform the user about sudo as soon as we know that they are a command-line user
[09:59] <mjg59> This could presumably be compared to how BSDs used to have "Don't login as root, use su"?
[10:00] <mdz> Keybuk: the target audience are the folks who are used to other distributions
[10:00] <mdz> but not sudo
[10:00] <pitti> but many users already know what a 'root' user is and what it is for, and they seem to miss it in Ubuntu
[10:00] <pitti> so we need to nudge them itno the right direction
[10:00] <Mithrandir> pitti: write a pam module to echo out "you need to use sudo" if they call su -
[10:00] <Keybuk> if we _really_ must have something like it, I'd suggest bringing back the "Root Terminal" menu item
[10:00] <mdz> mjg59: yes, but don't they display that in motd or something?
[10:00] <Keybuk> maybe shoving it under System->Administration
[10:00] <pitti> Mithrandir: that was my original idea, too
[10:00] <mjg59> mdz: Only if you logged in as root
[10:00] <mdz> this would be less disruptiev in that it would go away once they've used sudo
[10:00] <sivang> maybe this could be made so that only users who are allowed to sudo see it?
[10:00] <mdz> mjg59: ah
[10:00] <mdz> sivang: yes, that was part of the proposal
[10:01] <sivang> opos, sorry :-/
[10:01] <Mithrandir> pitti: of course, only if root was disabled.  If root's enabled, it should be quiet.
[10:01] <mdz> Keybuk: the trouble is that users are accustomed to opening a terminal and using su
[10:01] <pitti> Mithrandir: sure
[10:01] <mjg59> Perhaps it would be more sensible to have *su* print it?
[10:01] <pitti> I don't really like the 'root terminal' approach
[10:01] <pitti> it might tempt people to use it for more tasks than necessary
[10:01] <Mithrandir> mjg59: implementation detail, really, but sure.
[10:01] <mdz> mjg59: that was my first answer to sabdfl, but feedback from the community has shown that users get confused before that point
[10:02] <mdz> they suddenly realize that they don't know the root password, so su is hopeless
[10:02] <Mithrandir> the only problem I see with my approach is that people won't even try su - if they haven't punched in a root password.
[10:02] <mjg59> mdz: Ah
[10:02] <sivang> given that, the proposal doesn't look all that bad to me. If I cannot sudo - the I won't see it. if I can, then I should know the implications already.
[10:02] <pitti> maybe we should add the su check if root is disabled nevertheless? It doesn't interfere with the sudo help
[10:02] <mdz> pitti: sure, it's orthogonal
[10:02] <raphink> just jumping it, but can't people be better informed on `sudo -i' ? if they want a su feeling?
[10:02] <raphink> s/it/in/
[10:02] <mjg59> raphink: It's more that they don't know they have to use sudo
[10:03] <pitti> yes, I forgot that part - that only affects members of admin
[10:03] <raphink> mjg59: I get the point
[10:03] <raphink> and it would be really dirty to link su to sudo -i ;)
[10:03] <mdz> raphink: we can fine-tune the text of the message as necessary; I think the open issue is whether the approach is correct
[10:03] <Mithrandir> a problem with the flag file is "what happens once the user has used sudo once, then doesn't remember?"
[10:03] <pitti> raphink: and wrong
[10:03] <mjg59> I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to forcibly instruct people, but I'm not sure uglifying every shell is the best plan
[10:03] <raphink> mdz: yes
[10:03] <raphink> pitti: totally wrong ;)
[10:03] <mdz> Mithrandir: we can lead them to the documentation, but we cannot make them drink
[10:03] <mjg59> Also, there's no reliable way for it to know if the user can run sudo
[10:04] <mdz> mjg59: for all new installations, the admin group serves that purpose
[10:04] <pitti> mjg59: no, we only want admin members
[10:04] <Mithrandir> mdz: the message magically goes away after they've run the command once.  There's no (visible) way for them to get it back.
[10:04] <pitti> mjg59: we specifically don't want messages for restricted sudo access (you still remember the information disclosure discussion? :) )
[10:04] <raphink> mjg59: all the more that sudo can be used for only some tasks
[10:04] <Mithrandir> mdz: it's really a horrible thing to do, UI-wise..
[10:04] <mdz> Mithrandir: not only after they've run it, after they've run it successfully
[10:04] <raphink> mjg59: so that even a user who can use sudo might not be able to use it for all things
[10:04] <mjg59> mdz: I worry about the case where an admin knows enough to fix sudo (say they have a local admin group that's used for other purposes), but don't know where this message is coming from
[10:05] <pitti> Mithrandir: to be concrete, if the sudo command and authentication was ran successfully (not if the runned command was successful)
[10:05] <mdz> mjg59: /etc/profile is a pretty reasonable place to look
[10:05] <sivang> mjg59: we can state where this msg is coming from somewhere else, and note that in the help msg itslef
[10:05] <Mithrandir> pitti: sure, but it's still horrible from a UI POV.
[10:05] <mjg59> mdz: I think that whichever way we go, people will be unhappy about some aspect of it
[10:05] <mdz> mjg59: agreed
[10:05] <pitti> Mithrandir: well, there isn't much UI, what do you mean in particluar?
[10:05] <mjg59> How does MacOS deal with this?
[10:06] <mdz> but I think we can do better than we currently do
[10:06] <mjg59> (I'm guessing that they just don't)
[10:06] <mdz> mjg59: they ignore it, I think
[10:06] <pitti> mjg59: they don't
[10:06] <sivang> Mithrandir: horrible, but effective to close this pit in which I personally saw many users fall into
[10:06] <mdz> because their users don't expect to be able to use root
[10:06] <pitti> mjg59: the  first time I saw macos, I didn't know how to become an admin
[10:06] <mjg59> What other things can also be done?
[10:06] <mdz> we're in a different boat because we get a lot of users who have enough experience with linux to be confused by the difference in our configuration
[10:06] <Mithrandir> pitti: You have a message which appears each time you open a terminal.  You run sudo ls.  The message goes away.
[10:07] <mjg59> What does the installer currently say during password configuration?
[10:07] <sistpoty> do I recall correctly, that there is a root-terminal icon somewhere in the default gnome install? maybe use that to trigger some help?
[10:07] <mdz> mjg59: it doesn't matter, nobody reads the text ;-)
[10:07] <pitti> Mithrandir: maybe we should just add it to /etc/skel/.bashrc and have the user remove it themselves if they want?
[10:07] <janim1> people may get preinstalled boxes
[10:07] <pitti> mdz: ^
[10:07] <ogra> Mithrandir, but you filter a good bunch of support requests from the users which have read the message
[10:07] <mdz> Mithrandir: what do you propose? something like what pitti says?
[10:08] <mdz> "edit ~/.profile / /etc/profile / whatever if you don't want to see this message anymore"?
[10:08] <sivang> maybe we can use a dsktop notification instead of a terminal msg?
[10:08] <pitti> then existing users won't see it of course
[10:08] <Mithrandir> mdz: I would like a pam module or have it not go away automatically, yes.
[10:08] <mdz> sivang: to what purpose?
[10:08] <Mithrandir> pitti: existing users probably know about sudo. :-P
[10:08] <ogra> shinyness :)
[10:09] <ogra> sivang, that wont help you on a console
[10:09] <sivang> err, right
[10:09] <pitti> Mithrandir: right, that's why I think that this is not a real flaw of the /etc/skel/.bashrc approach
[10:09] <sivang> ogra: forgot we're not laways ona  console
[10:09] <sivang> s/console/X/
[10:09] <ogra> heh
[10:09] <Kamion> mdz: the text in the installer *should* be improved, mind you; and probably will once we get all the sudo stuff integrated upstream
[10:09] <Kamion> at the moment the installer doesn't really tell you anything much
[10:10] <sivang> true
[10:10] <Kamion> pitti: /etc/skel/.bashrc applies to everyone, not just admin users
[10:10] <Kamion> would be pretty annoying on boxes with non-trivial numbers of users
[10:10] <pitti> Kamion: sure, but you can enclose it in an if..then
[10:10] <pitti> i. e. check if he's an admin member
[10:10] <mdz> my opinion is that sabdfl's proposal is simple to try out, unsurprising for experienced users, and helpful to intermediate users
[10:11] <pitti> non-admins shouldn't ever see it anyway
[10:11] <mdz> whether it will be annoying for too many users, that's difficult to say
[10:11] <mdz> it might even annoy me, but we won't really know until we try something
[10:11] <mjg59> Ok. How about we agree to do it for preview and then potentially reconsider after that?
[10:11] <sivang> we probably need to trail and error, that's all.
[10:11] <mdz> Keybuk has notified me that his network connection is gone
[10:11] <mdz> mjg59: that's reasonable for me
[10:12] <pitti> can we have a voting about automatically removing the note or not?
[10:12] <mdz> sure, if you like
[10:12] <pitti> if not, then we don't need to change sudo
[10:12] <mjg59> I'm in favour of automatically removing the note.
[10:12] <mdz> I'm in favor of automatically removing the note, rather than forcing users to explicitly remove it
[10:13] <mjg59> Ok. So we'll implement for preview, with automatic removal, and see what sort of response we get?
[10:13] <mdz> that's fine with me
[10:13] <mdz> we know what sabdfl would say. ;-)  DO IT
[10:13] <mjg59> Cool. Popcon?
[10:13] <sivang> heh
[10:13] <mdz> popcon
[10:13] <lucas> yeak
[10:13] <lucas> yeah
[10:13] <lucas> 1 min
[10:13] <pitti> ok, grat
[10:13] <lucas>  Status of popcon.u.c (LucasNussbaum, also see [WWW]  thread on u-devel@): popcon.u.c hasn't been updated since June 2005. While it's mostly useless for main packages (all users have the default set of packages installed), it is very useful for universe to determine wich packages should get the more attention.
[10:14] <pitti> great
[10:14] <mdz> it's broken and ought to be fixed.  is there any policy decision to be made here?
[10:14] <lucas> Could popcon be fixed ? By whom ? How could we ask our users to enable it (u-d-a@ email, blog entries) ? (it is disabled by default for obvious privacy reasons)
[10:14] <mjg59> mdz: Default enabling mechanism
[10:14] <mdz> we could add a checkbox to espresso
[10:14] <ogra> having a gui to enable it would be rad to make users aware of it ...
[10:14] <Kamion> thom used to run popcon (by virtue of being sysadmin as well), but no longer does
[10:15] <Kamion> I don't think anyone's paid any attention to it at all since he left
[10:15] <mjg59> Is espresso going to have a "Put your email address here if you want to receive updates about new versions of Ubuntu" type thing?
[10:15] <mdz> elmo: what kind of privileges are necessary to run popcon?  is it something the sysadmin team needs to do, or can it be handed off to a mere mortal?
[10:15] <mdz> mjg59: not planned currently
[10:15] <mjg59> If so, it would make sense to add something with a privacy policy there
[10:15] <elmo> mdz: it can and should be handed off
[10:15] <lucas> I'd volunteer to take care of it, but it's probably a 'privilege' limited to employees ?
[10:16] <Kamion> lucas: shell access to machines in general is, yeah
[10:16] <mdz> elmo: I assume it requires shell access somewhere or other?
[10:16] <elmo> mdz: yes
[10:16] <elmo> it can't be community maintained, sorry
[10:17] <ogra> didnt we have external vservers for community stuff
[10:17] <elmo> is there really no one on the distro team who can fix it?
[10:17] <elmo> I don't beleive it requires much in the way of maintenance
[10:17] <mdz> elmo: yes, it's just a matter of appointing someone
[10:17] <Mithrandir> can it be cronned?
[10:17] <ogra> i'd take it ... but i'm not sure how time consuming it is
[10:18] <mdz> is anyone who already has shell privileges familiar with popcon?
[10:18] <Mithrandir> I've read the scripts, but I wouldn't consider myself familiar.
[10:18] <Kamion> I've touched it, but am kind of busy
[10:18] <ogra> i only inspected the client side when i worked on hwdb
[10:19] <mdz> I expect that once it's fixed, it'll run quietly without intervention for a long time
[10:19] <mdz> Mithrandir: would you have a look and get it going again?
[10:20] <Mithrandir> mdz: sure, I could do that.
[10:20] <mdz> wonderful, thanks
[10:20] <mdz> lucas: any outstanding issues then?
[10:20] <Mithrandir> I'd need access to the box, but I'm sure that'll be arranged.
[10:20] <Mithrandir> (I'll file an RT ticket)
[10:20] <mdz> Mithrandir: yep
[10:21] <mdz> there's a question about advertising it more
[10:21] <mdz> I don't mind if someone sends an email to -announce inviting users to participate
[10:21] <lucas> mdz: no
[10:21] <mdz> ok, let's move on then
[10:21] <mdz> is jani here regarding Xubuntu?
[10:21] <janim1> here
[10:21] <dholbach> I can do that, once Mithrandir has fixed it.
[10:21] <mdz> dholbach: ok
[10:22] <janim1> shall I start?
[10:22] <mjg59> janim1: Sure
[10:22] <mdz> janim1: please
[10:23] <janim1> ok so I'd like if possible to have the same status for xfce packages
[10:23] <janim1> as for kde and gnome
[10:23] <janim1> excempt from UVF
[10:23] <mdz> janim1: KDE isn't exactly exempt, though it does sometimes get exceptions
[10:23] <janim1> I am taking care of them and debian is doing the same
[10:23] <tseng> janim1: "exempt" is a bit of a strech
[10:23] <mdz> janim1: the reason why gnome is treated specially is because our releases are synchronized
[10:23] <janim1> it was for breezy wasn;t?
[10:23] <tseng> janim1: gnome has a strict schedule
[10:24] <mdz> janim1: so we can be confident that they're stabilizing when we need them to be stabilizing
[10:24] <mdz> janim1: does xfce have a time-based release schedule?
[10:24] <janim1> no
[10:24] <janim1> they plan a stable release in Feb though
[10:24] <mdz> if not, then we need to consider it on a case-by-case basis
[10:24] <Keybuk> ok, I _think_ I'm back again (I hope)
[10:24] <pitti> Keybuk: yes, you are :)
[10:24] <Riddell> janim1: I have to ask for any excemptions for KDE uploads after UVF, it has to be shown that they are bug fix only releases and won't break anything
[10:25] <janim1> ok, then I don;t want blanket permissions
[10:25] <mdz> Keybuk: while you were gone, we decided to rename the project to Schmoobuntu, and to have prospective developers paint their faces blue
[10:25] <janim1> just not too much hassle :)
[10:25] <Keybuk> I'm inclined to agree with mdz here, if XFCE doesn't follow our release cycle, we should consider it individually each time
[10:25] <mdz> janim1: I'm perfectly willing to consider exceptions for XFCE
[10:25] <Keybuk> mdz: what about existing developers?
[10:25] <janim1> thanks
[10:25] <mdz> Keybuk: orange
[10:25] <Keybuk> ah, the bad-fake-tan look :)
[10:26] <mdz> janim1: it will help a lot if upstream provides good changelogs and distinguishes between feature branches and bugfix-only branches
[10:26] <dholbach> Oh great! That's more like the hippie feeling I expected! :)
[10:26] <janim1> so yes I was only talking about dapper and this upcoming xfce not in general as it is with gnome
[10:26] <tseng> on a similar note, I am hoping to track mono and gtk# past UVF
[10:26] <mdz> janim1: since we won't be able to spend time auditing their code to see what kinds of changes we're dealing with
[10:26] <janim1> mdz, yes they are working on a branch which becomes a release shortly
[10:26] <tseng> they both have bugfix-only branches open, as NLD time schedule is pretty close to dapper atm
[10:27] <tseng> and fixes will be backported for the next few months.
[10:27] <janim1> mdz, I am willing to put in all the time needed for the dozen or so packages
[10:27] <janim1> and they have _no_ security record so far :)
[10:27] <pitti> janim1: or rather, a good one :)
[10:27] <janim1> ok :)
[10:27] <mdz> janim1: it might help if you communicated with upstream that we are very disciplined about our release cycle and would like to cooperate with them to ensure that the right changes get into Ubuntu, but need to be conservative in what we accept as releases approach
[10:27] <pitti> mdz: FYI, I ack'ed all the xfce packages for main yesterday
[10:28] <dholbach> Wow.
[10:28] <janim1> mdz, already contacted them in December and keep pestering and controibuting
[10:28] <ogra> in a row
[10:28] <janim1> did the same with debian-xfce
[10:28] <mdz> ok, so there is also the question of promoting XFCE to main\
[10:28] <janim1> pitti, thanks btw, there's still thunar orage and exo
[10:28] <janim1> :)
[10:28] <pitti> janim1: oh, ok, will do them tomorrow
[10:29] <pitti> janim1: they didn't sound xfce'ish
[10:29] <janim1> yeah
[10:29] <ogra> exo has an X in the middle :)
[10:29] <pitti> mdz: however, before we actually promote them, we should find a solution for langpacks
[10:29] <mdz> as with any other packages, if they meet our criteria and get signoffs from the right people, they're welcome in main
[10:29] <mdz> pitti: are the translations very large?
[10:29] <pitti> xfce has a fair number of translations, and we shuold carefully consider where to put them
[10:29] <janim1> pitti, yes langpack is something we need to figure out for xfce
[10:30] <pitti> i. e. put them into the main langpacks, or create xfce specific ones
[10:30] <janim1> pitti, I am willing to do the packaging whatevere is required with your guidance
[10:30] <pitti> janim1: do you happen to know how big a well translated language is for xfce?
[10:30] <mdz> pitti: I'm happy to leave that to your discretion based on how large they turn out to be
[10:30] <janim1> pitti, no idea
[10:30] <pitti> janim1: nevermind, langpacks are created automaticlaly
[10:30] <pitti> mdz: ok, I'll figure it out with jani
[10:31] <mdz> ok
[10:31] <mdz> the final xfce issue is CD builds
[10:31] <janim1> yes
[10:31] <ogra> pitti, do separate ones, else you 'll loose the advantage of xfce's smallness
[10:31] <janim1> this is a Kamion thing I suppose
[10:31] <mdz> this is a tricky issue, because there is a tradeoff between bottlenecks on busy people, and security
[10:31] <janim1> whether the machines can handle the load
[10:31] <Kamion> to some extent; other people can kick off builds, but nobody else knows the relevant bits of the code as well
[10:31] <mdz> it would be simplest for Kamion to do it, but he has a lot on his plate
[10:32] <pitti> ogra: no, you will want the general langpacks for xfce, too
[10:32] <pitti> ogra: just not the gnome and kde ones, but you don't need to install them
[10:32] <ogra> pitti, yup
[10:32] <Kamion> I will need to do seed admin, but somebody else could probably manage the necessary code changes by clone-and-hack, and I can review them
[10:32] <janim1> I am again willing to do the work if it's ok security-wise
[10:32] <Kamion> the load issues are better now than they were last time we talked
[10:32] <janim1> great
[10:33] <Mithrandir> mdz: I'd be ok with helping Kamion out wrt cd builds, since I'm fairly involved in at least the live part already.
[10:33] <janim1> so good it could build daily images?
[10:33] <ogra> me too
[10:33] <Kamion> janim1: basically the only issue now is disk space, but I can probably squeeze you in
[10:33] <ogra> at least i'd like to be able to kick off my edubuntu builds myself
[10:33] <mdz> Mithrandir: I'm happy for you to have access to little for that purpose
[10:33] <janim1> Kamion, thanks
[10:33] <pitti> janim1: I look forward to trying an xfce live cd :)
[10:33] <janim1> pitti, me too honestly :)
[10:33] <sivang> janim1: me too :)
[10:33] <Kamion> other people with cdimage access are mdz, infinity, Riddell
[10:33] <mdz> ogra: likewise
[10:34] <ogra> thanks :)
[10:34] <Kamion> live CD work requires help from lamont or infinity
[10:34] <mdz> I think there are a lot fewer gotchas now than there used to be
[10:34] <mdz> as far as triggering CD builds
[10:34] <mdz> Kamion: any concerns there?
[10:34] <Mithrandir> can we get remote triggering of the live fs builds??
[10:34] <Kamion> mdz: nope; I need to brief each person on a few things they need to do first and need to know, that's all
[10:34] <Mithrandir> s/.$//
[10:34] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I have it ...
[10:34] <mdz> as do I
[10:34] <Kamion> it's just an ssh key thing, if lamont/infinity trust you
[10:34] <mdz> it's just a matter of adding new keys if more people need it
[10:35] <Mithrandir> mdz: ok.
[10:35] <Kamion> Mithrandir should clearly have that for casper development, IMO
[10:35] <mdz> definitely
[10:35] <Kamion> how do we want to manage xfce seeds?
[10:35] <mdz> Mithrandir: I'll mail lamont/infinity and ask them to take care of that
[10:35] <Mithrandir> I'm usually fine, since infinity is up far too late for his own health, but it would be nice not to rely on somebody 10 time zones away.
[10:35] <mdz> how are xfce seeds being managed so far?
[10:35] <elmo> err
[10:35] <janim1> Kamion, as you wish
[10:35] <janim1> I keep them on localhost :)
[10:36] <Kamion> janim1: in revision control?
[10:36] <janim1> but will move them public when needed
[10:36] <janim1> bzr branch of ubuntu-seeds
[10:36] <mdz> janim1: oh, good
[10:36] <Kamion> ok, if you could make those public, we can publish them on chinstrap
[10:36] <mdz> janim1: please do mirror your bzr branch publicly
[10:36] <janim1> Kamion, ok will let you know tomorrow
[10:36] <Kamion> however we will need to be able to change them; I (and others) relatively often make changes which need to be applied quickly to all derivatives
[10:37] <janim1> then should we keep them under ~cjwatson ?
[10:37] <Kamion> so maybe we can come up with some PQM arrangement or something, or just merge requests if we can guarantee low latency
[10:37] <Kamion> they certainly have to be mirrored under ~cjwatson/seeds/ for everything to work (bus problem? moi?) but that can just be a mirror
[10:37] <Kamion> if you're happy for me to ping you from time to time with urgent merges, that's fine
[10:38] <janim1> Kamion, I am fine with that
[10:38] <Kamion> ok
[10:38] <mdz> Kamion: you *so* did not just suggest PQM
[10:38] <ogra> heh
[10:38] <Kamion> mdz: pretend that my increased use of Launchpad due to Malone is a bit like drug injection
[10:39] <Kamion> causes hallucinations and fun stuff like that
[10:39] <sivang> lol
[10:39] <mdz> janim1: bear in mind that we're doing a major infrastructure migration for the package archive next week
[10:39] <ogra> yes, malone can do that
[10:39] <janim1> mdz, the soyuz thing?
[10:39] <mdz> janim1: so it's likely that we'll need to sort out a lot of issues there before we can do everything properly for Xubuntu
[10:39] <mdz> janim1: yes
[10:39] <janim1> should I wait till then?
[10:39] <janim1> it's ok with me
[10:40] <mdz> janim1: no, I'm just warning you that there will be delays on our side due to that
[10:40] <janim1> np
[10:40] <Kamion> janim1: you already have cdimage and debian-cd checkouts from my arch branches, right? if you could update those and grep through for names of other derivatives (kubuntu and edubuntu, chiefly), it should be relatively straightforward to add xubuntu too
[10:40] <mdz> janim1: what time zone are you in?
[10:40] <janim1> Kamion, yes I have and will do
[10:40] <janim1> UTC+2
[10:40] <Kamion> oh, and 'find' as well as 'grep', there are some files under debian-cd/tasks/ that need to be added
[10:40] <janim1> eastern europe
[10:40] <mdz> janim1: ok, that's pretty close to Mithrandir, so if he can run your CD builds for you, that should work
[10:41] <siretart> mdz: major infrastructure migration next week? does this mean/include sync requests via soyuz?
[10:41] <Mithrandir> mdz: are you mailing admins for ogra's and my access to little or should I?
[10:41] <mdz> siretart: it's going to affect everything
[10:41] <mdz> Mithrandir: please do
[10:41] <mdz> Mithrandir: I've mailed about livefs triggering
[10:41] <mdz> we need to move on, we're pushing 2 hours
[10:42] <mdz> janim1: any urgent concerns?
[10:42] <janim1> mdz, nothing urgent
[10:42] <mdz> ok
[10:42] <janim1> thanks
[10:42] <mdz> I don't really want to discuss this next item unless joeyh is actually here to talk to us
[10:42] <mdz> there's still a very active discussion happening on debian mailing lists, and we're not ready to start implementing changes on behalf of individual debian developers yet
[10:43] <ogra> it was a misinterpretation of the mail imho ...
[10:43] <mdz> stephan is not here, either, so I'd like to defer this item if it's OK with Keybuk/mjg59
[10:43] <janim1> Kamion, btw you're keeping cd-image in arch for now instead of bzr?
[10:43] <Keybuk> I agree, joeyh should come to the meeting
[10:43] <pitti> janim1: the other way round
[10:43] <mjg59> I'm fine with deferring this
[10:43] <Kamion> janim1: I do plan to move it, but it's backed up behind a million other things to do as usual
[10:43] <mdz> ok
[10:43] <Keybuk> likewise \sh
[10:43] <mdz> mjg59: libpam-foreground?
[10:43] <Keybuk> can somebody e-mail him to let him know that?
[10:44] <siretart> I will talk to him
[10:44] <mdz> siretart: thanks
[10:44] <siretart> mdz: what CAN we actually implement?
[10:44] <siretart> mdz: there has been a suggestion that we could modify dpkg-genchanges/dpkg-buildpackage, is this really feasible?
[10:44] <Kamion> madness
[10:44] <mdz> siretart: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/05/msg00260.html
[10:44] <siretart> I mean at binary package building time?
[10:45] <Kamion> any kind of global changes in Maintainer fields require changes in the archive
[10:45] <elmo> Kamion: it does?
[10:45] <Kamion> siretart: no, that's daft, Maintainer could be overridden on the archive side if we were going to go that route
[10:45] <mjg59> libpam-foreground needs to go in to the base installation in order to let us do privileged hal operations sanely
[10:45] <elmo> Kamion: how?
[10:45] <elmo> Kamion: I think that's backwards
[10:45] <mdz> siretart: I outlined everything in that message, and the discussion is ongoing on debian-devel.  no need to discuss it here until there's a decision to be made
[10:45] <Kamion> elmo: if we don't want to touch all packages or do MADNESS like hacking dpkg, yes
[10:45] <elmo> Kamion: I think we have to hack dpkg
[10:45] <Kamion> I don't see any other alternative
[10:45] <mjg59> In order to do that, it needs to be in every interactive login session
[10:45] <elmo> Kamion: altering just the Packages file isn't sufficent
[10:45] <Kamion> elmo: I think that's horrible and bad and wrong
[10:45] <mdz> mjg59: libpam-foreground is something which now exists?
[10:45] <siretart> mdz: so we defer this to the next meeting. ok
[10:45] <mjg59> mdz: Yes
[10:45] <Kamion> it's good enough for most purposes
[10:46] <Mithrandir> can we have one discussion at a time, please? :-)
[10:46] <mjg59> Now, I'm not too sure whether there's any consensus on whta the best way to do that is
[10:46] <Kamion> namely providing a contact for users using our package management tools to see who the maintainer is
[10:46] <mdz> siretart: indefinitely, until we actually have a proposal from Debian about what they want us to do
[10:46] <elmo> except package management tools like 'dpkg -I' :-P
[10:46] <mjg59> We can add it to common-session, but that runs for non-interactive sessions as well
[10:46] <mjg59> (this may not make any significant difference)
[10:47] <mjg59> Actually, letting it run for non-interactive things as well results in "nobody" having permission to do things like shut down the machine
[10:47] <mjg59> So that's probably not ideal
[10:47] <mjg59> In order to fix this, we need to alter the semantics of conffiles in /etc/pam.d
[10:48] <mdz> mjg59: the basic idea is to grant special privileges to a user who seems to be at the console?
[10:48] <mjg59> mdz: When a user logs in, a file is created in /var/run/console of the form username:vt_number
[10:48] <mdz> could we address the issue of non-interactive logins inside libpam-foreground itself?
[10:48] <mjg59> mdz: I'm not sure if it gets that information
[10:48] <mjg59> I can look into that
[10:48] <mdz> it should get file descriptors
[10:49] <mjg59> Ok
[10:49] <mdz> since pam runs in-process (right?), I don't think it can close them
[10:49] <Mithrandir> pam is in-process, yes.
[10:49] <mjg59> Ok. In that case we can probably do it without altering semantics.
[10:49] <mdz> yay
[10:49] <Keybuk> mjg59: isn't the whole problem with "if you have console, you have more privilegs" that once you've been on the console, you can stash a setgid binary and always have those privileges?
[10:50] <mjg59> Keybuk: No, because libpam-foreground doesn't grant you any privileges
[10:50] <Keybuk> or is this a different approach?
[10:50] <mdz> Keybuk: it doesn't grant you any group memberships
[10:50] <mjg59> It creates a file - that's all
[10:50] <Keybuk> creates a file?
[10:50] <mdz> it just records, in a trusted location, the fact that you're on the console
[10:50] <mdz> and other programs can use that information to authenticate you
[10:50] <mjg59> dbus checks whether that file exists when you send a message, and optionally drops it if the user and vt don't match
[10:51] <mjg59> Ok. I'm happy with that.
[10:51] <mdz> cool
[10:51] <mjg59> Any other business?
[10:51] <Mithrandir> mjg59: I hope you're creating the file with a setuid/setgid helper?  The authentication stuff might not run as root.  (think ssh)
[10:51] <ogra> mjg59, reload the agenda ...
[10:52] <mdz> ogra: that is not funny
[10:52] <sistpoty> mjg59: I've added another point (at the beginning of the meeting, sorry): UVF-handling for universe
[10:52] <ogra> mdz, sistpoty added it ..
[10:52] <mjg59> Mithrandir: No, it's created by the process. We don't want it in the case of ssh, so that's no problem
[10:52] <sistpoty> ogra: maybe you could talk about that?
[10:52] <mdz> sistpoty: if it's quick, please ask, otherwise we need to defer to the next meeting
[10:52] <mdz> we already had a backlog and have been here for a long time
[10:53] <ogra> we talked about general proxies as we had in breezy for uvf exception requests
[10:53] <ogra> in our motu meeting
[10:53] <ogra> the question was just to whom these proxie people should talk to
[10:54] <siretart> escp. if sync requests are going to go via soyuz
[10:54] <ogra> (i'm guessing Kamion and mdz as usual, but motu wants names :) )
[10:54] <pitti> mjg59: the main use case is that X creates the file, right?
[10:54] <mdz> ogra: still us, yes
[10:54] <ogra> oki
[10:54] <mdz> is that all?
[10:54] <siretart> mdz: wait
[10:54] <ogra> sistpoty, thats ok with you for the proxy stuff ?
[10:54] <siretart> mdz: we shall bug you about EVERY package in universe for UVF exception?
[10:54] <mdz> soyuz isn't going to change anything immediately regarding syncs
[10:55] <mjg59> pitti: Yes
[10:55] <ogra> siretart, thats what the proxies are for  ...
[10:55] <mdz> siretart: isn't the purpose of the proxies to batch and filter the requests?
[10:55] <siretart> argl, sorry I was misreading
[10:55] <ogra> they must decide how critical it is
[10:55] <mdz> ok
[10:55] <mdz> we need to close
[10:55] <mdz> for general health and sanity
[10:55] <raphink> hehe
[10:55] <sivang> indeed
[10:55] <ogra> :)
[10:55] <sistpoty> :)
[10:55] <siretart> :)
[10:56] <mdz> I'll flush the agenda shortly, antyhnig new can be added then
[10:56] <mdz> meanwhile, adjourned
[10:56] <mdz> thanks everyone, especially those who had to wait a long time for their turn
[10:56] <ogra> thanks mdz
[10:56] <sistpoty> thx mdz
[10:57] <janim1> thanks all
[10:57] <janim1> xubuntu meeting starting in 3..2..1
[10:57] <pitti> bye everybody
[10:57] <sivang> night all
[10:57] <janim1> night
[10:59] <sistpoty> gn8 everyone
[11:00] <janim1> shall we start?
[11:00] <technolalia> yes, it's getting late
[11:01] <janim1> others here who came to the xubu meeting?
[11:01] <crimsun> I'm here, but I /really/ need to step out for a drink
[11:01] <crimsun> go on, and I'll read scrollback
[11:02] <janim1> ok John lets start, others will read the logs
[11:02] <janim1> so 'The show so far':
[11:02] <technolalia> First item: isos
[11:03] <technolalia> That seems to be in hand
[11:03] <janim1> yes
[11:03] <technolalia> after the tech board meeting
[11:03] <technolalia> Excellent!
[11:03] <janim1> TB agreed so we are safe wrt CDs
[11:03] <janim1> I'll need to push my work from localhost to a website and will get help in building them
[11:03] <janim1> after they transiytion to soyuz next week probbaly
[11:04] <janim1> but it's ok to have an agreement in principle
[11:04] <janim1> So right now we are on track wrt packaging and software selection
[11:04] <janim1> modulo a few apps which do not yet exist for xfce
[11:05] <janim1> network and printer config being the most important
[11:05] <janim1> this I will try taking care of
[11:05] <technolalia> what about the default browser?
[11:05] <janim1> I don't think there's one better suited than firefox now is there?
[11:06] <technolalia> not right now
[11:06] <janim1> it is big and slow  but what else is there?
[11:06] <technolalia> nothing that I know of
[11:06] <janim1> I looked around and hoped ubuntulite people who have done some research in this area
[11:06] <janim1> come up with something but there aren;t really chioices
[11:07] <janim1> there are various proof of concept webcore and gecko based light browsers but they are primitive
[11:07] <crimsun> nope, we're pretty much stuck with firefox
[11:07] <technolalia> some mozilla hackers have put out a couple of tools for finding memory leaks
[11:07] <ranf> dillo. I really miss tabs though
[11:07] <technolalia> which have plagued firefox
[11:07] <nomed> janim1, ubuntulite seems to use dillo
[11:07] <janim1> ranf, and javascript/frames/utf8  AFAIK
[11:07] <technolalia> so hopefully performance and stability will improve
[11:07] <nomed> i would suggest to add links2
[11:07] <janim1> but probbalu not in dapper
[11:08] <janim1> nomed, that's not a GUI app is it?
[11:08] <nomed> links2 -g
[11:08] <nomed> much better then dillo
[11:08] <nomed> it need https support
[11:08] <janim1> hmm is it on the proposed package list?
[11:08] <nomed> from config
[11:09] <nomed> it's an alternative to firefox for old hw machines
[11:09] <janim1> ok this is not on the agenda let's have a discussion/proposal on the ml
[11:09] <nomed> they can check gmail for ex
[11:09] <nomed> k
[11:09] <janim1> any doc people around?
[11:09] <technolalia> me
[11:09] <janim1> good, are you on the ubuntu-doc team too?
[11:10] <janim1> or in contact with them?
[11:10] <technolalia> not really - on the mailing list but haven't been involved much
[11:10] <technolalia> in contact, yes
[11:10] <janim1> would you take up the issue of xubuntu-docs whatever it may mean?
[11:10] <janim1> if we need anything besides the stock xfce docs
[11:11] <janim1> and besides what is there in the current FF startup page
[11:11] <technolalia> it's been raised on the list, and I think the infrastructure is being put in place
[11:11] <janim1> oh, on ubuntu-doc?
[11:11] <janim1> infrastruct for xubuntu related material?
[11:12] <technolalia> yes - infrastructure for xubuntu materials
[11:12] <crimsun> yes, corey was talking about it a few days ago
[11:12] <crimsun> in -devel
[11:12] <janim1> great
[11:12] <janim1> hmm how did I miss that...
[11:12] <janim1> ok John do you want to be the contact for xubuntu docs then?
[11:12] <technolalia> missed because we need a Xubuntu newsletter?
[11:12] <janim1> for users and the other ubuntu-doc people
[11:12] <technolalia> I think Robert Stoffers might be doing that
[11:12] <technolalia> I'll check and find out
[11:13] <janim1> yes I saw his name on the wiki, but did not write to the list so far...
[11:13] <technolalia> there's a xubuntu-docs package in the repositories
[11:13] <janim1> Ok, I may just need a ping from time to time to update the xubuntu-docs package with whatever new material there is
[11:14] <janim1> Once we have the 4.4 panel in we may want to see where to put a doc link prominently
[11:14] <technolalia> when is 4.4 due out?
[11:14] <janim1> and copy gnome/ubuntu as much as possible they seem to be doing sensible things wrt usability and docs
[11:14] <janim1> they said (vaguely) February
[11:14] <janim1> but we may package betas or RC earlier
[11:15] <technolalia> I'll check to see what documentation they've done upstream
[11:15] <janim1> they're not done with it yet, they may even need help :)
[11:16] <technolalia> If we can get a beta packaged, then I can test it and add to their upstream docs
[11:17] <janim1> ok I'll start on that. Probably the panel is the main difference wrt 4.2 depending on it's default settings we'll chose
[11:17] <janim1> other thanb that we'll need to pick pieces of ubuntu-docs which mention evince, gdm
[11:17] <janim1> and add abiword/gnumeric references
[11:18] <janim1> making a gnumeric-gtk is still TODO
[11:18] <janim1> does the ubuntu-doc team have translators or are they  separate teams for all languages?
[11:19] <crimsun> are we going to tackle a11y, too?
[11:19] <technolalia> translation is handled seperately
[11:19] <janim1> crimsun, I don;t think xfce provides a11y as good as gnome/kde
[11:19] <janim1> or even close
[11:19] <technolalia> whats ally?
[11:19] <crimsun> janim1: didn't think so
[11:19] <janim1> I am very unfamiliar with the subject
[11:19] <mhz> technolalia: accessibility issues
[11:20] <technolalia> mhz: thanks
[11:20] <janim1> do they have magnifier/speech etc stuff?
[11:20] <mhz> yw
[11:20] <janim1> ok so looks like the doc effort is underway then
[11:20] <crimsun> janim1: not last I looked
[11:21] <janim1> art?
[11:21] <technolalia> do we want to set up users forums yet?
[11:21] <janim1> do we go with our current artwork or try involving art.u.c?
[11:21] <janim1> john, if you think we need forums sure
[11:21] <janim1> I don;t know how much users are there
[11:21] <janim1> on u-users there are few xfce posts
[11:22] <technolalia> I think it would be good to have them ready for the first isos
[11:22] <janim1> so right now are there kubuntu and edubuntu forums?
[11:22] <technolalia> that's when users will start using xubuntu in large numbers
[11:22] <Riddell> janim1: kubuntu has forums
[11:22] <janim1> if so we need a specialized forum for us too
[11:22] <technolalia> yes - there are forums for k/ubuntu
[11:22] <Riddell> janim1: edubuntu I assume has a space on ubuntuforums
[11:23] <Riddell> janim1: it's an open question how much you want to split the community
[11:23] <janim1> john, then please can you contact forum admins fro this?
[11:23] <technolalia> we can put fourms on ubuntuforums
[11:23] <Riddell> generally it's best not to
[11:23] <technolalia> sure
[11:23] <technolalia> Riddell: what do you mean by split?
[11:23] <technolalia> seperate xubuntuforums website?
[11:23] <Riddell> technolalia: e.g. do we have a kubuntu-br.org site or do the brazillian kubuntu users take a corner of ubuntu-br.org
[11:24] <Riddell> forums too
[11:24] <Riddell> IRC channels
[11:24] <Riddell> etc
[11:24] <crimsun> I don't see that being an issue given how quiet #xubuntu is
[11:24] <janim1> we may encourage them to use ubuntu forums and if the numbers increase split then?
[11:24] <technolalia> I think I'm for sharing already set-up infrastructures
[11:25] <Riddell> janim1: not numbers, it's if they don't get answers to their questions or get incorrect answers that it's better to split
[11:25] <technolalia> but ubuntu-users is already high traffic
[11:25] <janim1> especially since xubuntu will have a lot in common with ubuntu
[11:25] <Riddell> and when splitting make sure it's not really a split and all sides know what's going on
[11:26] <janim1> so let's defer this to when we are close to the relase of the first CD?
[11:26] <technolalia> fine by me
[11:27] <janim1> I assume that creating a new channel in the fora can be done in a day if required
[11:27] <Riddell> it might be a good idea to contact the ubuntuforums admins to tell them you're likely to want a board on their site
[11:27] <janim1> yes, that'd be good
[11:27] <Riddell> advanced notice is always a good idea
[11:27] <technolalia> I'm already in contact with ubuntuforums
[11:27] <technolalia> will email them tonight about progress
[11:27] <janim1> thanks
[11:27] <janim1> ok ART
[11:28] <janim1> I am happy with current artwork (modulo polish)
[11:28] <janim1> do we contact art-team or xfce upstream artists for help ?
[11:29] <janim1> we may have to make a decision wrt default theme/colors soon
[11:29] <Riddell> xubuntu was looking good when I tried it by the way
[11:29] <janim1> I'll just start integrating what we have now and I assume again
[11:29] <crimsun> janim1: it'll probably be easier to ask everyone but rely more on the community
[11:29] <janim1> with teh firtst CD people will notice and chip in
[11:30] <janim1> crimsun, announce a request for feedback on ubuntu-users?
[11:30] <janim1> could do that once gdm is in place
[11:31] <crimsun> janim1: right, and on xfce's user list
[11:31] <janim1> yeah I'll have to subscribe there as it does not let me through gmane for some reason
[11:31] <janim1> ok i18n
[11:32] <janim1> I thought of again announcing on the users list and upstream i18n list
[11:32] <crimsun> definitely the latter
[11:32] <janim1> and have a wiki page for each language where we describe our status  and contact persons
[11:33] <janim1> we need to see about non-xfce apps which are not in gnome
[11:33] <janim1> I don;t know about abiword/gnumeric i18n status for example
[11:33] <janim1> and for translators of the documentation that will be written
[11:33] <crimsun> janim1: hub (just approved for motu) is upstream for abiword
[11:33] <janim1> yes, I saw that
[11:33] <hub> yes
[11:34] <hub> what is the question?
[11:34] <janim1> I meant we need to ask u-users too besides xfce-i18n
[11:34] <crimsun> janim1: definitely
[11:34] <janim1> hub, abiword translation status, we are talking about default apps in xubuntu
[11:34] <hub> yeah I see
[11:36] <janim1> so far there are French and Brazilian  xubuntu tanslators
[11:36] <janim1> for install docs at least
[11:36] <janim1> So I will set up the wiki pages and write to the two mailing lists
[11:37] <janim1> ok anything else?
[11:38] <janim1> if not good night/day everybody and thanks for coming :)
[11:38] <nomed> janim1,
[11:38] <janim1> yes?
[11:38] <crimsun> I'll have some multimedia questions in a week or so, but I'll shoot them to the list
[11:38] <janim1> the volume manager?
[11:38] <janim1> crimsun ,sure
[11:38] <nomed> i'll post on the list *now* a message about a volume manager
[11:38] <janim1> anything besides xfmedia?
[11:38] <janim1> nomed, ok
[11:39] <nomed> take a look on it
[11:39] <technolalia> are there logs for this meetin? and if so, where?
[11:39] <janim1> is tomorrow ok?
[11:39] <crimsun> janim1: I'm thinking quodlibet instead of xfmedia
[11:39] <janim1> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/ircLogs
[11:39] <janim1> hmm is that a python app
[11:39] <technolalia> thanks
[11:39] <crimsun> janim1: yep
[11:39] <janim1> I only read a rant about it on debian planet a month or so ago :)
[11:39] <janim1> but I trust you know what you're doing :)(
[11:39] <nomed> crimsun, i would use xfce apps
[11:40] <crimsun> nomed: that would be my preference, too -- except xfmedia is known bugg{y,ier than quodlibet}
[11:40] <janim1> crimsun, but sure write to the list so all can read and discuss it
[11:40] <crimsun> but again, I'm investigating it and won't be making the decision alone
[11:40] <janim1> yeah it hanged a couple times here
[11:40] <nomed> crimsun, they are working on xfmedia for next release
[11:41] <nomed> from what i know ...
[11:41] <janim1> indeed Brian said he'd want a 1.0 in time for xfce 4.4
[11:41] <janim1> crimsun, quodlibet seem to bring in gnome stuff
[11:42] <janim1> or just recommends it actually
[11:42] <janim1> and currently is still gst-0.8, is that in transitioning currently?
[11:43] <crimsun> janim1: gst-0.10 support is a major rewrite slated for 0.17+
[11:43] <janim1> dapper?
[11:43] <crimsun> janim1: no idea, I'll ping Joe about it
[11:43] <janim1> ok
[11:45] <crimsun> that's all from me, gotta scoot to another meeting
[11:45] <janim1> bye crimsun
[11:45] <crimsun> cya :)
[11:45] <technolalia> janiml: thanks for your hard work
[11:45] <technolalia> and see you on the xubu-dev mailing list
[11:45] <janim1> thanks all for your work :)
[11:45] <janim1> sure
[11:45] <janim1> bye
[11:45] <technolalia> bye
[11:45] <nomed> bye


[00:58] <botch> Hello :)
[01:05] <Arsapi> Hello
[01:06] <Arsapi> What irc client or chat program you guys use on xubuntu desktop?
[01:12] <CrazyLikeAFox> Arsapi: I'm fond of irssi
[01:16] <Arsapi> I have always been using "casual" graphical irc clients and currently I'm running Hexchat
[08:50] <Fernando-Basso[m> I have used irssi, weechat, and after years, hexchat. In the last two weeks, I have been giving riot a try and access irc through it.
[13:44] <Joe-Zinc> Hi! I've come across a couple of issues when using the daily build for derivative creation... The two issues are no auto-mount of media in live mode, and update-initramfs not functioning. Can anyone offer suggestions?
[13:57] <Joe-Zinc> Under the circumstance, I will hope the issue resolves itself, otherwise it will be a problem- as rebuilding initramfs is needed to meet rebranding requirements of derivatives. I am just trying to comply. After install the system proper rebuilds it, and everything works fine. I'm only asking so that I can comply with Xubuntu teams requirements.
[13:57] <Joe-Zinc> Leave a comment @ https://zinclinux.tech.blog/suggestions-welcome/ if you wish to help me out. P.S. presently need to symlink 'python' to the current python to make certain programs such as youtube-dl work. Feel free to check out the blog home page for how I like my Xubuntu, which has led to this project. Thanks in advance. Peace
[14:04] <brainwash> Joe-Zinc: I suggest asking in #xubuntu-devel and/or the xubuntu mailing list
[14:06] <Joe-Zinc> @ brainwash, thank you very much. Have a good day!
[18:38] <Solo14> hi
[18:38] <gnrp> hi
[18:39] <Solo14> I'm new  in handeling linux
[18:39] <Solo14> and i trying to install wine on my terminal
[18:40] <Solo14> to play win games on it
[18:41] <Solo14> somebody can explain to me how to do this
[18:43] <well_laid_lawn> !wine
[18:44] <Solo14> Tahnks I will try this :]
[19:32] <jdwwatts> reading microsoft files ?


[12:20] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95253 in xorg (main) "X fails to start on Macbook Pro - missing hsync/vertrefresh issue?" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95253
[12:31] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95258 in xorg (main) "Ctrl-Alt-Backspace should request confirmation before killing Xorg" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95258
[04:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95323 in xorg (main) "Adept won't install certain x11 packages" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95323
[06:31] <Ubugtu> New bug: #40523 in xserver-xorg-video-i810 (main) "wrong frequency for Fujitsu Siemens P20-2 (dup-of: 32504)" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/40523
[01:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95437 in mesa (main) "[apport]  glxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95437
[02:00] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95453 in mesa (main) "[apport]  glxinfo crashed with SIGSEGV in calloc()" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95453
[02:11] <Ubugtu> New bug: #43276 in kde-guidance (main) "Please include Dell UltraSharp 2405FPW 24-inch Wide Aspect Flat Panel LCD Monitor in hardware database" [Wishlist,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/43276
[02:11] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95448 in xorg (main) "video not visible experience ubuntu in samples folder" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95448
[03:35] <Ubugtu> New bug: #89712 in compiz (main) "Invisible windows when desktop effects is enabled (dup-of: 89189)" [High,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/89712
[03:40] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95490 in xrdb (main) "I dont now what this service is good for, but it crashed while restarting x" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95490
[04:46] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95515 in xorg (main) "[Feisty Beta] synaptic touchpad not detected during setup" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95515
[05:20] <Ubugtu> New bug: #94330 in xorg (main) "Ubuntu video failure on LiveCD boot/install - 6.06LTS, 6.10 and Feisty Fawn" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/94330
[06:41] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95555 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.12 (restricted) "Wrong screen resolution after enabling nvida restricted driver" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95555
[07:21] <Ubugtu> New bug: #44810 in xserver-xorg-video-i810 (main) "DPMS standby, suspend, off does not work." [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/44810
[07:51] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95583 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (main) "touchpad: scroll-region flaky" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95583
[08:51] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95606 in xorg (main) "google earth does crash xorg on feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95606
[10:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #95643 in xrandr (main) "[apport]  xrandr crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95643


[06:24] <jussi01> Just a rminder to all interested paties that the iRCC meeting is in less than 2 hours in #ubuntu-meeting
[07:55] <elky> IRCC meeting in 5 mins.


[08:29] <handsome_feng> hi, meeting time
[08:33] <handsome_feng> hikiko Trevinho
[08:33] <hikiko> hello handsome_feng
[08:33] <hikiko> :)
[08:33] <hikiko> how are you?
[08:34] <handsome_feng> Yeah , I'm fine :)
[08:35] <handsome_feng> Seems marco is offline now
[08:35] <hikiko> let me ping him on telegram
[08:35] <handsome_feng> cool
[08:37] <hikiko> mmm he didn't seem to receive it
[08:37] <hikiko> my message is not marked as seen, he must be off
[08:39] <handsome_feng> I think so
[08:40] <handsome_feng> eleni, Can you edit the wiki page ?
[08:41] <hikiko> sure, give me a moment to find the link
[08:43] <handsome_feng> It is very strange that It show Immutable Page here
[08:45] <hikiko> handsome_feng, what do you mean by immutable page?
[08:45] <hikiko> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu%20Kylin/Meeting/
[08:45] <hikiko> should I add a new page?
[08:46] <hikiko> it looks alright to me
[08:48] <hikiko> add a new page shows the last page added to edit it I think
[08:49] <handsome_feng> :/ I just can't edit any page
[08:50] <hikiko> oh I see
[08:50] <handsome_feng> the top left of the page shows "Immutable Page"
[08:50] <hikiko> I got it too
[08:50] <hikiko> yes
[08:50] <hikiko> there's no edit action
[08:50] <handsome_feng> yes
[08:52] <hikiko> http://askubuntu.com/questions/632048/how-to-give-feedback-to-an-immutable-page-at-wiki-ubuntu-com
[08:53] <hikiko> but there must be a faster way than filling an lp bug
[08:53] <hikiko> let's see if there's an admin
[08:54] <hikiko> willcooke, hi
[08:54] <hikiko> do you know any ubuntu wiki administrator?
[08:54] <willcooke> hummmm
[08:55] <willcooke> I'd say ask dholbach or mhall119
[08:55] <hikiko> it seems that we can't edit the ubuntu kylin wiki page anymore
[08:55] <hikiko> thanks :)
[08:55] <willcooke> yw
[08:55] <willcooke> I think I read somewhere that the wiki was getting a lot of spam so they had to lock it for a little while
[08:56] <willcooke> maybe they didnt unlock it yet
[08:56] <hikiko> oh
[08:56] <willcooke> but yeah, one of the community guys wil know for sure
[08:58] <handsome_feng> Thank you , willcooke, but jack and anthony can edit the wiki page ... :/
[08:58] <willcooke> aohh
[08:59] <handsome_feng> Me and zhangcao can't ...
[09:00] <willcooke> then I don't know, sorry.  The community guys will be able to fix it though for sure
[09:01] <handsome_feng> Ok, Thank you very much , willcooke
[09:02] <hikiko> handsome_feng, I am asking the sys admins
[09:03] <handsome_feng> Thank you  :)
[09:26] <Trevinho> It might be that the wiki is in readonly mode. Sometimes they do it for maintenance
[09:28] <handsome_feng> But it last for a long time , a couple of months
[09:29] <hikiko> sajoupa> hikiko: I can see that you are in the right group to edit pages, didnt see anything useful in the logs... I'll ask for a second pair of eyes.
[09:29] <hikiko> is it in this mode for 2 months?
[09:30] <hikiko> I thought 2 weeks, how did you edit it last time?
[09:30] <hikiko> handsome_feng, when was the last time you could edit it?
[09:31] <handsome_feng> I don't remember it clearly。。。
[09:31] <hikiko> they asked me and I said last meeting
[09:31] <Trevinho> Mh weird
[09:31] <hikiko> because I saw marco's log
[09:32] <handsome_feng> Let me find out from the wiki page
[09:32] <handsome_feng> wait a moment
[09:32] <hikiko> sure
[09:33] <handsome_feng> 20160128
[09:35] <hikiko> ok I told them
[09:35] <handsome_feng> Maybe because we are not in the group of ubuntu ?
[09:36] <hikiko> then Trevinho would have access
[09:36] <hikiko> he is in that group
[09:37] <handsome_feng> hmm ...
[09:37] <handsome_feng> and Trevinho, I have update the code about move dash
 hikiko: with the spam issues we have allowed only the members of ubuntuetherpadTeamACL to edit pages, but you are in it
[09:40] <handsome_feng> errr...
[09:40] <handsome_feng> Can we join that team ?
[09:41] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: so... dash code, let me check it again, but I think we're there
[09:41] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: have you been able to check about that small black corner in the top-left?
[09:42] <handsome_feng> Yes, I have fix that
[09:42] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: cool
[09:42] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: I think i'll setup a landing today or tomorrow, so that we can get it in ubuntu in next week
[09:43] <handsome_feng> Great !
[09:44] <handsome_feng> And do you see my email about wizard ?
[09:45]  * Trevinho currently can't either login to ubuntu wiki -_-
[09:45] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: yes I did, but it's not material for this LTS unfortunately
[09:45] <hikiko> handsome_feng:
[09:45] <hikiko> [11:44:32] <hikiko> sajoupa, this wiki page is part of the tools we use in collaboration with some chinese NUDT developers that are not working for canonical, could they join the  ubuntuetherpadTeamACL team somehow to be able to edit it (after it's back I mean)
[09:45] <hikiko> [11:44:56] <sajoupa> hikiko: that should be possible
[09:47] <Trevinho> yeah, wiki page is unlocked now
[09:47] <Trevinho> thanks hikiko
[09:47] <hikiko> thanks sajoupa :)
[09:47] <handsome_feng> Thank you , hikiko , sajoupa
[09:48] <handsome_feng> What do I need to do ? hikiko
[09:48] <hikiko> handsome_feng, are you able to edit it?
[09:49] <hikiko> let me ask again
[09:49] <hikiko> sajoupa> np. for the chinese developers, the best is to file an RT requesting group ownership
[09:50] <hikiko> I am asking what the rt is now :p
[09:51]  * Trevinho 's network is sh*t today...
[09:52] <handsome_feng> Trevinho, yes, I know, I just want some suggestion for the further developing :)
[09:54] <hikiko> handsome_feng, I need the users that must have access to the page
[09:55] <hikiko> so that I email them to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[09:55] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: so, using a different app, which is detached from unity could in some way give you the ability to land it also in ubuntu kylin 16.04 at later stages
[09:55] <hikiko> and they are added to the group
[09:56] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: while if we keep it inside unity itself you could control unity more directly (i.e show what happens by clicking something), but, in the other side it won't be in 16.04.x without kylin patching
[09:57] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: as for developing it, you can use cairo in any case... So that it could imported to unity in case... While nux is something more unity related, and if you use it, it means you want the wizard to be embedded in unity itself
[09:58] <Trevinho> which, as we discussed in the past, is something nice to have. But it all depends on the question I did before (would you like to get it in 16.04 versions of kylin?)
[09:59] <handsome_feng> Yes, This is the plan :/
[09:59] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: about the last changes to your branch, I'm happy with those... However about  your comment in MP «I apply the diff , but the unity will crash when call "animation::Skip(fade_animator_)", :/»
[10:00] <Trevinho> I also got something similar, but... It seeems that it's just about rebuilding the whole stuff... At least, it worked to me after a clean build...
[10:00] <Trevinho> Could you retry (and in case use it)?
[10:00] <handsome_feng> I have use fade_animator_.Stop() instead of Skip()...
[10:00] <Trevinho> Since you're stopping the animator, which is fine, butt..... In case that tooltip is shown again, then it won't fade-in.
[10:00] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: yeah, i saw that
[10:01] <Trevinho> I also got the very same crash honestly (and I've no clue why. Since I used the same code in other places with no troubles)
[10:01] <Trevinho> it seems that C++ is doing something weird with templates class that define a virtual method that has no implementation...
[10:01] <Trevinho> But, there should be an implementation of that...
[10:01] <handsome_feng> I trid this in unity trunk , It also crashed ...
[10:02] <Trevinho> ah, ok... whatheve..
[10:02] <Trevinho> i'll give it a quick look, if you can wait, again...
[10:03] <handsome_feng> ok, and i will try to rebuilding the whole stuff
[10:05] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: FYI we had a small regression in the losckreen, but I've fixed it: https://code.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/unity/lockscreen-promptview-scaling-fix/+merge/289162
[10:05] <Trevinho> nothing big really, we just forgot to remove a duplicated definition
[10:06] <handsome_feng> oh, Thank you ! I didn't notice that
[10:08] <Trevinho> yeah, me neither :)
[10:10] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: I've checked the animation using .Stop()... It works, and there's no problem when doing a new tooltip (I've used the ccsm slow animation mode, under composite, FYI). And it works fine
[10:11] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: so.... if you get that not crashing fine. Otherwise we can keep it in this way and avoid troubles.
[10:12] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: ah. I've just spotted a tiny bug...
[10:12] <handsome_feng> errr, what ?
[10:12] <handsome_feng> what it is ?
[10:13] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: if you open the QL: if you press left, you move to another icon selection. But if you press right, nothing happens
[10:13] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: in theory it would be nice it to move to the icon when pressing down
[10:13] <Trevinho> let me see this,...
[10:15] <handsome_feng> press left will close the quicklist first time
[10:16] <handsome_feng> oh, yes, press right nothing happens...
[10:25] <handsome_feng> sorry, my computer just reboot from a dpkg error
[10:25] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: no worries...
[10:25] <Trevinho> So I think I'll have a diff in seconds
[10:26] <handsome_feng> ok !
[10:26] <Trevinho> this is the quick fix... http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/15406995/
[10:26] <Trevinho> but... I'd like somehting different
[10:28] <handsome_feng> hmmm, apply this diff first ? or waiting for a clearly  design?
[10:58] <handsome_feng> sorry, my computer crashed again :(
[10:59] <handsome_feng> hikiko, still here ?
[11:00] <hikiko> handsome_feng, yes
[11:00] <hikiko> about the edit
[11:01] <handsome_feng> sorry , I missed your message, the user must access the wiki page are me and zhaochao
[11:01] <hikiko> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
[11:01] <hikiko> popey said
[11:01] <hikiko> that users that are in this group
[11:01] <hikiko> have write access in the wiki
[11:01] <hikiko> I applied to become a member
[11:02] <hikiko> I think you must apply too
[11:02] <hikiko> and then if you still don't have write access I'll fire an rt
[11:02] <hikiko> as sajoupa said
[11:03] <hikiko> i see your name next to mine in Pending Approval :)
[11:04] <handsome_feng> yeah, but i still can't edit any wiki page ... :(
[11:07] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: so are you ok with that diff?
[11:09] <handsome_feng> sorry, i have not do that yet,I fix my  computer just now...
[11:09] <hikiko> handsome_feng, if you still cant when we join it
[11:09] <hikiko> I ll email the rt
 hikiko: Once you do that, you need to logout and log back in again to the wiki.
[11:11] <handsome_feng> Ok ,I will try
[11:15] <Trevinho> handsome_feng: no worries...
[11:15] <handsome_feng> hikiko, still can't edit ...
[11:16] <hikiko> ok I am emailing :)
[11:17] <handsome_feng> Thank you ! and did you add zhaochao in the email?
[11:28] <hikiko> now sec
[11:33] <handsome_feng> Thank you !


[08:21] <mup> PR operator#907 closed: Split large test files into multiple files in a directory <Created by benhoyt> <Closed by benhoyt> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/907>
[08:21] <mup> PR operator#923 closed: Use a different path for DB file <Created by lmlg> <Closed by benhoyt> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/923>
[10:19] <mup> PR operator#927 closed: Backport ErrorStatus fix <Created by mkalcok> <Merged by benhoyt> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/927>
[18:09] <mup> Issue operator#929 opened: No interface to `juju-reboot` hook tool in ops <Created by NucciTheBoss> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/929>