[04:08] <tsimonq2> Could a MOTU please take a look at bug 1703307 and upload the package to zesty-proposed to start the SRU process?
[04:25] <tsimonq2> Could someone also nominate bug 1690416 for Xenial and Trusty please?
[06:03] <infinity> juliank: Can you gimme a poke when you're around?
[06:04] <infinity> juliank: Also, is it an intentional change that repositories without Release files are now considered invalid?  That's a pretty major behaviour change.
[06:08] <juliank> infinity: As the news said, apt-get now also requires explictly setting allow-insecure-repositories
[06:08] <juliank> Then they work just fine
[06:09] <juliank> (with warnings)
[06:10] <infinity> juliank: Ahh.  Yeah, looks like [trusted=yes] works (I think suggesting people set the apt.conf option is irresponsible, as that allows ALL sources to be insecure, not just the one I know I trust)
[06:10] <juliank> All other apt frontends already worked that way for some time, it's just the switch now being toggled around for apt-get to
[06:10] <juliank> s/to/too/
[06:15] <infinity> juliank: To be fair, applying that policy to file:/ and copy:/ URIs (which is where I just had to add a trusted=yes to fix d-i) seems a bit busted.
[06:15] <infinity> juliank: I mean, sure, someone could hack my local filesystem and all, but I feel like I have bigger problems if I can't trust a local repo.
[06:15] <juliank> Well, maybe you use some partial mirroring tool, or it's on an NFS share, or whatever
[06:16] <infinity> Yeah, I suppose.
[06:32] <juliank> infinity: (re poke) Is there something else you wanted to discuss, or just that? I'm a bit slow right now, as I basically just woke up (brain is about to get carbs any minute now) :)
[06:34]  * juliank woke up figuring out if he actually wanted to get up or not, and then saw the messages and decided to actually get up.
[06:48] <infinity> juliank: That was it.  Just being grumpy because you made me do work. ;)
[06:49] <juliank> Ah, OK; the 'also' made me think it might be two separate things :)
[06:50] <juliank> infinity: You are not the first one, we also broke siduction's ISO building, or whatever
[07:45] <LocutusOfBorg> hello Adri2000 seems that _rene_ wants to team upload libfilezilla (see #debian-release channel)
[07:47] <Adri2000> LocutusOfBorg: thanks for the notice, that's ok if he has an upload ready, I don't have much time to do it myself now :/
[07:47] <LocutusOfBorg> I will do it, and upgrade to the latest release
[07:49] <Adri2000> thanks
[08:06] <ricotz> hello, are there plans to pick up boost 1.64 for artful?
[08:56] <LocutusOfBorg> ricotz, maybe you need to talk with xnox :)
[08:57] <xnox> ricotz, is there a need for 1.64?
[08:57] <xnox> i'd rather not go ahead of debian.
[08:57] <xnox> 62 is currently default, with 63 available
[08:58] <ricotz> xnox, not yet, I guess, currently libreoffice internally defaults to 1.63, but with 1.64 already available seems better to push for that
[08:59] <ricotz> so avoiding to do two transitions
[08:59] <ricotz> of course debian should update to 1.64 too
[08:59] <ricotz> xnox, I guess you are the right person to ask for a MIR of libboost-locale-dev
[09:00] <xnox> ricotz, it doesn't need an mir.
[09:00] <xnox> ricotz, you should simply poke archive admin to promote that binary if something needs it. E.g. ask infinity.
[09:00] <ricotz> ah, than just an component switch of those binaries
[09:00] <xnox> yes, boost itself is in main.
[09:00] <xnox> unfortunately.
[09:00] <ricotz> I see, libreoffice 5.4.0 will require it
[09:01] <xnox> so when that is uploaded, it will be highlighted in components missmatches, and then we promote things.
[09:01] <ricotz> I see
[09:01] <xnox> boost binaries move between main-universe a lot, depending on what we end up shipping in the distro.
[09:02] <xnox> ricotz, also if libboost-locale-dev is headers only, it needs not any promotion. can't remember if locale-dev is or isn't header/template only.
[09:02] <xnox> however things should be declaring built-using, but whatever.
[09:02] <ricotz> it has a library too
[09:03] <xnox> ack, so it will be a normal promotion of that library package to main.
[09:03] <xnox> debian might go with with 1.65 transition and just skip 1.64 to be honest.
[09:03] <seb128> cyphermox_, xnox, slangasek, hey, any news about the nplan/n-m issue?
[09:03] <ricotz> xnox, ok, I guess this mean artful will stay with 1.62
[09:16] <bdrung_work> Trevinho, regarding the mouse click event: i am currently testing the system with a different mouse. no issues so far.
[09:47] <xnox> Laney, is transition tracker ok? e.g. from http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/html/ocaml.html ocaml-melt and ocamlviz are not installable on amd64, but they seem like they are to me.
[09:47] <xnox> or maybe i am missing something.
[09:48] <LocutusOfBorg> xnox, they are both green here
[09:48] <LocutusOfBorg> cache?
[09:49] <xnox> LocutusOfBorg, ah, that! thanks
[09:49] <xnox> problem between the keyboard and chair
[09:49] <xnox> symptoms to be fixed with coffee
[09:49] <Laney> ._.
[09:50] <LocutusOfBorg> xnox, I'm doing a photo shot of my current t-shirt
[09:56] <LocutusOfBorg> http://imgur.com/e8GUJer
[09:56] <LocutusOfBorg> xnox, ^^ :)
[10:28] <Zta77> Hi. I'm having trouble building a package from source, perhaps someone could help, please?  I'm doing the build inside a docker container so my system isn't soiled with all sorts of weird dependencies. Here's a self-contained Dockerfile: https://pastebin.com/wutSLrWq And this is how to test it, ie. make it build (and fail): docker build -t aseprite .   Not that this builds fine when invoken the plain cmake/make commands (also specified in Dockerfile)
[10:30] <Zta77> 2 minutes and I'll post the error message =) ..
[10:38] <Zta77> https://pastebin.com/zatpVKhN
[10:46] <cjwatson> Zta77: You should really regard the packaging as (at least mostly) source code, rather than something you generate with dh_make; dh_make is usually at best only useful as a guideline.
[10:46] <cjwatson> Zta77: Anyway, I think the actual error is above what you cut off in that paste.
[10:49] <Zta77> I'm rebuilding now; I'll paste a complete error code if possible.  Perhaps there's more info further up in the scroll buffer.
[10:50] <Zta77> I basically want to git clone some source and build a .deb that I can install later.  I will start from scratch when I want to build an updated version (i.e. start a new docker container).
[10:52] <Zta77> cjwatson: There's more here: https://pastebin.com/VBicjBHa
[10:53] <cjwatson> Zta77: Looks like missing Build-Depends: pkg-config
[10:53] <cjwatson> Possibly others
[10:54] <Zta77> Thanks, I'll try adding them and rebuild.
[10:54] <cjwatson> (Also slightly odd that you're installing sbuild in your container but not actually using it, so with what you have at the moment you'd also need to specify additional build-dependencies in the Dockerfile)
[10:54] <cjwatson> Oh, and that error about -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=None looks suspicious
[10:54] <cjwatson> Hm, no, that's debhelper's default
[10:55] <cjwatson> You might need to add -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release or something like that
[10:55] <cjwatson> Which would go in override_dh_auto_configure
[10:56] <Zta77> (I think sbuild is a left over from another experiment where I was building locally on my own machine)
[10:56] <Zta77> Right.  What was the first Build-Depends you mentioned? I lost my history..
[10:56] <cjwatson> pkg-config
[10:57] <cjwatson> That's not the actual fatal error in this case (the fatal error appears to be about CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE), but I expect you'll run into it later anyway
[11:07] <Zta77> Isn't it weird that the build succeeds if run with plain cmake/make but fails when invoked though dpkg-buildpackage ?
[11:08] <cjwatson> Zta77: Not particularly, because debhelper (used via debian/rules) supplies a bunch of cmake defaults
[11:09] <cjwatson> Zta77: One of those is -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=None, which apparently the embedded libarchive doesn't like
[11:09] <cjwatson> Zta77: See /usr/share/perl5/Debian/Debhelper/Buildsystem/cmake.pm
[11:10] <cjwatson> Zta77: Like I say you can override that by adding parameters after "dh_auto_configure --"
[11:13] <cjwatson> (I think -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=RelWithDebInfo is actually a better override)
[11:13] <cjwatson> See https://bugs.debian.org/701233 for the history here
[11:18] <Zta77> Now I'm getting somewhere! It's building.
[11:19] <Zta77> Using RelWithDebInfo
[11:53] <Zta77> cjwatson: So the build actually completes .. and then it fails =) Any idea what could be going on here? https://pastebin.com/Ngs7FABP
[11:54] <cjwatson> Zta77: Packages shouldn't install stuff into /usr/local
[11:55] <cjwatson> Zta77: You should be using /usr as the prefix
[11:56] <cjwatson> Zta77: If you reeeeeeeeeeally don't want to comply with that, you should (a) reconsider (b) if you still don't want to, override dh_usrlocal to do nothing
[11:56] <Zta77> Oh, I was just about to ask if this could be related to my custom prefix
[11:57] <Zta77> how do I override dh_usrlocal ?
[11:58] <Zta77> I'd like to be able to install my package side-by-side with the official package.
[11:58] <cjwatson> I don't really want to teach you the details because I think you are on a mistaken route
[11:58] <cjwatson> But if you really want to you can read "man dh" (which gives general advice on how to override debhelper commands)
[11:59] <cjwatson> There's a "Here is a way to prevent dh from running several commands that you don't want it to run" section
[11:59] <cjwatson> It's worth learning how overrides work anyway: it's easy and regular
[11:59] <Zta77> This whole project is a mistaken route.
[12:00] <cjwatson> :)
[12:03] <Zta77> But I'm learning docker, learning a but about .deb, learning how to populate a repository, and getting the latest build of aseprite. So it's not all bad.
[13:37] <coreycb> apw: hello, if you have some cycles, could you review a few openstack SRU uploads for me?  In the queue I have libvirt for zesty/xenial, and python-cinderclient/python-openstackclient for xenial.
[13:45] <apw> coreycb, are these two identicle in the zesty queue ?
[13:46] <apw> coreycb, and the same question for xenial
[13:47] <coreycb> apw: for libvirt there should be 2 uploads for zesty and 2 for xenial, of which the older ones can be rejected
[13:51] <apw> coreycb, there is already a libvirt in zesty-proposed
[13:51] <apw> are we replacing that ?
[13:58] <cpaelzer> coreycb: is that the update to have both rules?
[13:59] <coreycb> cpaelzer: yes
[13:59] <cpaelzer> coreycb: did you change the changelog - since I prefeched that into my merge and want history to be correct
[13:59] <coreycb> apw: checking
[13:59] <coreycb> cpaelzer: here's the zesty upload - http://launchpadlibrarian.net/327345846/libvirt_2.5.0-3ubuntu5.2_2.5.0-3ubuntu5.3.diff.gz
[14:00] <cpaelzer> ok thats the odl message - I'm good then
[14:01] <coreycb> cpaelzer: you probably want to release 5.2 rather than having the 5.3 version replace it, right?
[14:01] <coreycb> cpaelzer: in zesty-proposed
[14:01] <cpaelzer> coreycb: yeah 5.2 is in proposed quite a while now
[14:01] <cpaelzer> I'd prefer to not restart its amturing cycle
[14:03] <coreycb> apw: it looks like 5.2 is verified, perhaps we can release that to updates and accept 5.3 into proposed?
[14:03] <coreycb> cpaelzer: ^
[14:04] <apw> coreycb, ok its not marked verified according to the reports, i think they may have used the wrong tag form
[14:04] <cpaelzer> verification-zesty-done since 22. June
[14:05] <cpaelzer> there was the global change by sil2100 - maybe affected by that in some way
[14:05] <cpaelzer> apw: ^^
[14:05] <apw> i think the form is verification-done-zesty ...
[14:05] <sil2100> Yeah, it's verification-done-zesty as apw says ;)
[14:06] <cpaelzer> well I added the wrong way before you added it :-)
[14:06] <apw> cpaelzer, if you could flip that (too dangerous to overlap with you)
[14:06] <apw> then we can indeed release this one
[14:07] <coreycb> apw: cpaelzer: thanks
[14:07] <cpaelzer> apw: I corrected the tag
[14:11] <apw> cpaelzer, coreycb, ok that one released
[14:11] <cpaelzer> thanks apw
[14:11] <coreycb> apw: thanks
[14:11] <apw> i'll come back to the new one once the world notices
[14:45] <willcooke> mbiebl_, hi.  I copied  (more or less)  your patch for disabling bluetooth audio in gdm for Ubuntu, I wondering if it's likely to land in Debian soon, or did you decide that the a11y impact was too great?
[14:45] <willcooke> rdiff in question: https://paste.debian.net/975780/
[15:57] <seb128> cyphermox_, slangasek, xnox, hey again, sorry to nag but is annoying working on unblock that n-m update?
[15:57] <cyphermox_> yes, annoying is working on unblocking that
[15:58] <cyphermox_> fwiw, I told jbicha two weeks ago that it was a NM regression
[15:58] <cyphermox_> I think I can work around it in nplan, working on that right now
[16:40] <dmj_s76> Given the recent discovery of skylake/kabylake hyperthreading problems, could we get the latest intel-microcode backported to xenial?  That should fix the issue on a sizeable percentage of systems.
[16:40] <nacc> dmj_s76: LP: #1700373
[16:48] <dmj_s76> nacc: Thanks
[16:48] <nacc> dmj_s76: yw
[17:59] <bdrung_work> Trevinho, after one day use, i can say that the unwanted click events were caused by broken hardware
[19:55] <juliank> Seems like seviper's smtp does not speak TLS? gmail shows annoying red crossed-out locks for ubuntu-devel mails :(
[21:39] <Trevinho> bdrung_work: sad to hear for you, but also good for us :-D


 Pleased ya still with us . Getting ready now to take the big dip back home ?
[03:43] <lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: yes sir, today is going home already :p
[03:45] <Bashing-om> "it's time that all good thing to end " :)
[03:58] <lotuspsychje> hehe
[03:58] <lotuspsychje> going home is also nice
[04:06] <Bashing-om> A fact .. when all said and done .. there is no place like home .
[06:14] <ducasse> good morning, all
[12:56] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[13:49] <ptytty> looking for documentation on dev event firing
[17:01] <lotus|dell> hi guys
[17:02] <lotus|dell> im having weird issue on a dell, no wifi but lshw shows chipset & driver
[17:02] <nacc> lotus|dell: see /topic
[17:02] <nacc> lotus|dell: you want #ubuntu, i'm guessing?
[17:03] <lotus|dell> network icon shows only eth, lubuntu 16.04.1
[17:04] <lotus|dell> nacc: if the discuss friends have no clue i will tnx :p
[17:04] <nacc> lotus|dell: no, you're offtopic for this channel
[17:04] <nacc> lotus|dell: it's not a support channel
[17:05] <lotus|dell> we often discuss issues here, why is now a problem?
[17:06] <nacc> not ime, but so be it
[17:06] <DArqueBishop> Not in mine, either.
[17:09] <lotus|dell> if a user in main has a prob, and we discuss it here its also about support
[17:09] <lotus|dell> the thin red line
[17:14] <lotus|dell> howdy BluesKaj
[17:16] <brushdemon> http://imgur.com/gallery/D9jFUFD
[17:18] <lotus|dell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/23221085/
[17:22] <lotus|dell> bbl


[03:19] <Unit193> zenadm1n: Howdy.
[03:25] <wrst> Unit193: have time for a sill question?
[03:25] <Unit193> +y
[03:25] <Unit193> Sure.
[03:27] <wrst> yes +y thank you :)
[03:27] <wrst> ahh found it :)
[03:27] <wrst> was needing the command to list folders with the size
[03:27] <wrst> du was what I was looking for
[03:27] <wrst> du as in duh evidently :)
[03:27] <Unit193> ncdu
[03:29] <wrst> ncdu ?
[03:29] <wrst> command not found
[03:29] <Unit193> Instaaaaall.
[03:30] <wrst> bah
[03:30] <wrst> figured you would tell me that :)
[03:30] <Unit193> It's quite nice. :)
[03:31] <wrst> well I must say it is :)
[03:32] <wrst> thanks Unit193 that was perfect
[03:32] <wrst> should have known :)
[03:32] <Unit193> dh -h is normal, yes.
[03:34] <wrst> I'm trying to figure out what an owncloud update did with my files and why it ate them :)
[03:34] <Unit193> Ouch.  find is your friend.
[03:35] <wrst> I think it has really messed them up because had no love there
[03:35] <Unit193> Ouch.
[03:35] <wrst> they were somewhere else and apache redirected to another directory but now its at var/www/owncloud as it really should be
[03:36] <wrst> thank you Unit193 that needed to be done
[03:41] <Unit193> Sure.  `locate` them?
[03:42] <wrst> yes that seemed to somewhat work but I'm good now I think
[03:42] <wrst> not really for sure what happened
[03:43] <wrst> I lost a few GB of hard drive space but seem to have it back but never really found what I was looking for
[03:55] <wrst> Unit193: thanks for the help, I'm off to bed
[03:58] <Unit193> Sure, g'night.
[14:15] <twayneprice> anyone have a good vpn replacement for hamachi?
[15:44] <twayneprice> hey wrst: http://gigaom.com/2014/03/06/andreessen-horowitz-leads-32-7m-investment-in-high-flyer-digitalocean/
[15:53] <wrst> cool twayneprice, I can't imagine them not doing well
[15:53] <wrst> for the price
[15:53] <wrst> its not as good as linode from my understanding but the price...
[15:58] <twayneprice> Yea, I really like them
[18:17] <zenadm1n> I get to work on some real iron today. First time in a long time.
[18:21] <twayneprice> zenadm1n: Like this?  :) http://www.bombayharbor.com/productImage/0625543001264489205/Steam_Spray_Electric_Iron.jpg
[18:22] <zenadm1n> no, as in this http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201205-11055/
[18:23] <zenadm1n> 95% of what I do is cloud computing, so I get giddy when I get to work with *gasp* hardware.
[18:32] <twayneprice> Ah.  We have 3 DL380 G6 that we use for vmware.  Nice box.
[18:43] <zenadm1n> I'm about to benchmark disk i/o. I have 3 of them that are clustered for NetSUS.
[19:17] <twayneprice> zenadm1n: what is netSUS?
[19:19] <zenadm1n> It's an Apple software update server. They used to be Apple xserves, but they're now end-of-life so we're upgrading to Ubuntu.
[19:23] <twayneprice> ah.
[19:24] <zenadm1n> I'm benchmarking now. I want to get them tuned up because we refresh the macs and ipads for the classrooms and labs starting when school lets out in June.
[19:24] <zenadm1n> We're doing a test run during spring break.
[19:32] <twayneprice> Interesting.  That's pretty cool.
[19:36] <zenadm1n> twayneprice, these guys need to push a lot of big files fast. We've determined disk i/o will be the bottleneck so I'm benchmarking the baseline now, then I'm going to start tinkering with schedulers and other kernel parameters.


[05:45] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::Portugal:: Ep 78 – Duelo de podcasters @ https://podcastubuntuportugal.org/e78/
[05:53] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Podcast Ubuntu Portugal: Ep 78 – Duelo de podcasters @ https://podcastubuntuportugal.org/e78/
[17:07] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Ubuntu 20.04 Makes Picking a Graphics Driver Easier @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?p=164462 (by Joey Sneddon)
[21:33] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Ubuntu Blog: Canonical takes leadership role in security for ROS @ https://ubuntu.com/blog/canonical-takes-leadership-role-in-security-for-ros


[12:23] <duanedesign> morning all
[12:29] <rye> duanedesign, morning!
[12:39] <mandel> duanedesign, morning
[12:39] <duanedesign> mandel, hello
[13:02] <rye> so, the feature freeze is today
[13:02] <rye> right?
[13:04] <duanedesign> rye: final freeze is 19th
[15:12] <jdstrand> hi! so, I have not been able to use ubuntuone on maverick for a while now (music). aiui, there were several issues, one of which being the server needing to be updated. has this happened and if not is there an eta?
[15:13] <duanedesign> hello jdstrand
[15:15] <duanedesign> jdstrand: their were a few bugs. The fixes made it to the nightly PPA last week. I think by now the fixes should of made the Maverick Repository
[15:16] <duanedesign> jdstrand: are you findingg that U1 will not connect. In the Preferences, under 'Devices', it just says <Local Machine> instead of your computers name?
[15:24] <jdstrand> duanedesign: let me make sure I am up to date
[15:37] <jdstrand> duanedesign: ok, I am up to date. UbuntuOne still does not show up in the me menu
[15:38] <rye> jdstrand, bug #626659 :(
[15:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 626659 in ubuntuone-client (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "[maverick] Ubuntu One entry is not present in MeMenu (dup-of: 627483)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626659
[15:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 627483 in indicator-me "Maverick me menu is missing the Ubuntu One link (affects: 8) (dups: 1) (heat: 32)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627483
[15:38] <jdstrand> duanedesign: UbuntuOne preferences does say <LOCAL MACHINE>
[15:38] <duanedesign> jdstrand: ok
[15:38] <rye> bug #627483 to be precise
[15:38] <duanedesign> jdstrand: what do you get when you run from the Terminal: u1sdtool -s
[15:39] <jdstrand> State: AUTH_FAILED
[15:40] <jdstrand>     connection: With User With Network
[15:40] <jdstrand>     description: auth failed
[15:40] <jdstrand>     is_connected: False
[15:40] <jdstrand>     is_error: True
[15:40] <jdstrand>     is_online: False
[15:40] <jdstrand>     queues: WORKING_ON_BOTH
[15:40] <duanedesign> jdstrand: ok
[15:40] <jdstrand> (this was working with lucid)
[15:40] <rye> jdstrand, please remove the old token from seahorse, killall ubuntu-sso-login, close preferences and reopen them
[15:41] <duanedesign> has fix for bug 627700 made it to the Maverick repo
[15:41] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 627700 in ubuntu-sso-client (Ubuntu Maverick) (and 2 other projects) "pinging of ubuntuone url is done using http address resulting in 403 FORBIDDEN response (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627700
[15:42] <jdstrand> rye: I have several ubuntuone items under 'Passwords'
[15:42] <duanedesign> jdstrand: is their an 'Ubuntu One Token'
[15:42] <rye> jdstrand, hm, "UbuntuOne token for https://ubuntuone.com" and "Ubuntu One" are the ones that you might want to remove - is there anything else?
[15:42] <jdstrand> 'ubuntuone', 'UbuntuOne token for https://ubuntuone.com', 'Ubuntu One'
[15:43] <rye> jdstrand, i guess you tried to authenticate using a broken client version
[15:43] <jdstrand> I upgrade to maverick many weeks ago, so probably
[15:43] <jdstrand> this was running lucid prior to that
[15:43] <jdstrand> rye: so which to remove?
[15:46] <rye> jdstrand, i'd say that all of them
[15:47] <rye> jdstrand, you may look at the authorizations from sso at https://login.ubuntu.com/+applications
[15:49] <jdstrand> rye: I have two listed there. ubuntuone and Ubuntu One
[15:49] <jdstrand> rye: well 'Ubuntu%20One' to be specific
[15:50] <jdstrand> I'm going to delete both and start over
[15:54] <jdstrand> \o/
[15:55] <jdstrand> that seemed to work
[15:55] <jdstrand> I deleted my keys from seahorse, my applications, logged out and back in, connected to ubuntuone-preferences, logged in to uone and it works
[15:55] <jdstrand> I logged out and back in and rhythmbox now works too
[15:56] <jdstrand> rye, duanedesign: thank you
[15:56] <jdstrand> I guess it is because I had a broken client for a while
[15:56] <jdstrand> so hopefully lucid users upgrading to maverick won't hit this
[15:57] <rye> jdstrand, the users who tried to use updated client when server was not ready received a token which was in SSO but it was not in Ubuntu One. So it is all great now
[15:58] <jdstrand> cool
[15:58]  * jdstrand goes to buy some music
[16:05] <duanedesign> rye: have  you ever encountered hyperlinks breaking in the web UI
[16:05] <duanedesign> ?/12
[16:05] <rye> duanedesign, in the notes?
[16:06] <duanedesign> rye: yes. A user had an issue with notes uploading. After re-authenticating none of his new notes have working links
[16:09] <rye> duanedesign, frankly speaking, /notes/ ui will need a rewrite to be able to parse tomboy XML properly. What is the bug # for that question if you have one? There was a definite issue with monospaced text in links that could prevent it from working
[16:09] <duanedesign> wasn't sure how to proceed. https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+question/123646
[16:09] <duanedesign> thank you
[16:10] <duanedesign> uploading some files to my server. The lag is terrible :P
[16:13] <rye> duanedesign, "It seems to be the case that the old notes which had been synced previous to the problem developing still retain hyperlinks." - they are most likely stored as HTML - see http://groups.google.com/group/desktop-couchdb/browse_thread/thread/b7171f3113b29b12
[16:19] <duanedesign> rye: thank you for the link, very informative
[17:01] <OpenSourceWay> Hello world !
[17:07] <duanedesign> hello OpenSourceWay
[17:14] <OpenSourceWay> I have a question...
[17:14] <OpenSourceWay> What is the command which is running on the computer startup if Ubuntuone was correctly installed ?
[17:38] <duffydack> you mean the startup entry?    its /bin/sh -c '[ -d "$HOME/Ubuntu One" ] && ubuntuone-launch'
[20:32] <OpenSourceWay> I need help for reinstall ubuntuone,
[20:32] <OpenSourceWay> somebody can help me now ?
[20:35] <rye> OpenSourceWay, reinstalling will not really help since if you haven't changed anything in the sources then there are only configuration items than can be tweaked
[20:35] <rye> OpenSourceWay, what issue are you having?
[20:35] <OpenSourceWay> So I have some problems on the contextual menu of file and folder of my computer !
[20:35] <OpenSourceWay> Nothing appear
[20:36] <OpenSourceWay> I have problem on auto start of ubuntu at computer startup.
[20:36] <OpenSourceWay> And I haven't icon on file to help me about their status (sync...)
[20:36] <rye> OpenSourceWay, when you call menu on Ubuntu One nothing appears at all or no UbuntuOne entries?
[20:37] <OpenSourceWay> Sorry but I'm a french and I don't inderstand all :D
[20:37] <OpenSourceWay> On Applications menu or on file contextual menu ?
[20:37] <rye> OpenSourceWay, what version of ubuntu are you running?
[20:37] <OpenSourceWay> 10.04
[20:38] <OpenSourceWay> I haven't Ubuntu One on Application>>Internt
[20:38] <OpenSourceWay> In alacarte, none items are hidden
[20:39] <rye> OpenSourceWay, Ubuntu One preferences is in System / Preferences now
[20:40] <OpenSourceWay> Yes I have it.
[20:40] <OpenSourceWay> I'm connected on my online account.
[20:41] <rye> OpenSourceWay, do you have ubuntuone-client-gnome package installed?
[20:41] <OpenSourceWay> But I don't have ubuntuOne items on file's contextual menu.
[20:41] <OpenSourceWay> Yes
[20:41] <dobey> on what files?
[20:42] <OpenSourceWay> On all my computer files
[20:43] <OpenSourceWay> So I'm publishing creenshots...
[20:43] <OpenSourceWay> Package I have installed : http://ubuntuone.com/p/GN7/
[20:44] <OpenSourceWay> Contextual menu bug : http://ubuntuone.com/p/GN8/
[20:44] <dobey> you can only publish files that are already synchronized with ubuntu one, and you can only synchronize folders with ubuntu one, which are under your home directory
[20:44] <rye> OpenSourceWay, is Desktop folder a UDF ?
[20:44] <dobey> nothing outside of $HOME should have any Ubuntu One context menu items, in nautilus
[20:44] <OpenSourceWay> Yes, but see the screenshot, My desktop is on my /home/ folder
[20:45] <OpenSourceWay> rye: What ?
[20:45] <OpenSourceWay> UDF ?
[20:45] <dobey> is ~/Desktop folder synchronized on Ubuntu One?
[20:45] <rye> OpenSourceWay, could you please pastebin ls -l ~/Desktop ?
[20:45] <rye> well
[20:45] <rye> ls is enough
[20:46] <dobey> rye: what good would that do?
[20:47] <rye> dobey, checking that ~/Desktop contains these folders that on the screen and that's not $HOME on the desktop
[20:47] <OpenSourceWay> dobey: Is ~HOME/UbuntuOne/ Who is sync.
[20:47] <OpenSourceWay> http://pastebin.com/6xkJYWG7
[20:48] <OpenSourceWay> I have a soluce !!
[20:48] <rye> OpenSourceWay, for the emblems to appear, open Nautilus, navigate to your home folder and then click on Bureau, click Ubuntu One, Share this folder and it should work!
[20:48] <rye> OpenSourceWay, not share, but SYnc the folder on Ubuntu one
[20:48] <OpenSourceWay> When I'm on /home/me/Bureau/ cpntextual menu is Ok !
[20:48] <rye> OpenSourceWay, hmmm
[20:50] <OpenSourceWay> My bug :
[20:50] <OpenSourceWay> I have creat a 'link' of Ubuntu One folder on mmy desktops.
[20:50] <OpenSourceWay> I think is not the good manpulation.
[20:50] <OpenSourceWay> What is the good manipulation ?
[20:51] <dobey> i don't think that's the problem
[20:52] <OpenSourceWay> If I haven't problems now !
[20:53] <OpenSourceWay> Just one gug to fix, If I right-clic on files on my Desktop without open it on nautilus, Ubuntu One doesn't appear on contextual menu !
[20:53] <OpenSourceWay> That's all.
[20:55] <OpenSourceWay> How can I move my /home/me/Ubuntu One folder on my desktop ?
[21:06] <rye> OpenSourceWay, i believe i may know whats happening but I need to wait for my sync to be finished before adding Desktop UDF
[21:07] <OpenSourceWay> Ok
[21:07] <rye> OpenSourceWay, i will add this to my TODO list now and will check that tomorrow - if you visit us here tomorrow you may ping me to see what are my findings
[21:08] <OpenSourceWay> Ok
[21:08] <OpenSourceWay> Thanks !
[21:08] <OpenSourceWay> I don't know you are an active member of UbuntuOne priject !
[21:09] <rye> OpenSourceWay, i am aiming to be one
[21:09] <rye> OpenSourceWay, and now i need to mark it as end of day and continue poking the software tomorrow
[21:09] <rye> so bye all!
[21:09] <OpenSourceWay> :D
[21:09] <OpenSourceWay> Bye


[03:02] <Keybuk> hmm, momentary thoughts on bug tracking
[03:02] <Keybuk> is "logd not working" a bug?
[03:03] <Keybuk> or is it simply wishlist
[03:03] <Jc2k> is it a regression?
[03:03] <Jc2k> if it never worked, its a wishlist IMO
[03:03] <Keybuk> it worked once, then we disabled it
[03:03] <Keybuk> the reason I wonder is that the "triaged" state doesn't make sense for it
[03:03] <Jc2k> urrrgh
[03:04] <Keybuk> (or some of the other bugs in there)
[03:04] <Keybuk> Confirmed - there's enough information to replicate the bu
[03:04] <Keybuk> Triaged - there's enough information to fix the bug
[03:04] <Keybuk> but for things like that, neither makes sense
[03:04] <Keybuk> which is why I wonder whether it's a wishlist
[03:05] <Jc2k> its a regression so in one sense its a bug. but its not really fatal to anything so more of a wishlist item..
[03:05] <Keybuk> yeah, tricky innit
[03:06] <Jc2k> aye
[03:06] <Jc2k> toss a coin?
[03:06] <Jc2k> heads its a wishlist
[03:06] <Jc2k> ;)
[03:07] <Jc2k> had any more upstart related thoughtlets?
[03:09] <Keybuk> not yet
[03:11] <Jc2k> im not sure what to do for my needs :(
[03:12] <Keybuk> what were those again?
[03:13] <Jc2k> one example is for syncing windows mobile devices
[03:13] <Jc2k> synce.org has a couple of daemon type progs it needs
[03:13] <Jc2k> i dont really like the idea of them running constantly
[03:13] <Jc2k> so wanted to try using hal events to start them
[03:14] <Jc2k> i had been thinking hal -> upstart
[03:18] <Jc2k> on top of that, there are quite a few devices that need you to ppp them before they are useful. network manager could be used for that in the future, but i dont know how far off such things are...
[03:23] <Keybuk> ah yes, I remember
[03:26] <Keybuk> months off, at least
[03:37] <Jc2k> ideally i'd like to have this stuff auto-magicked by then
[03:37] <Jc2k> i think the guy i was talking to on ubuntu-devel-discuss was hoping to have something pretty for HH...
[03:38] <Keybuk> oh, who was that?
[03:39] <Jc2k> i think Martin Owens
[03:40] <Jc2k> we had cultural differences between yorkshire and liverpool..
[03:40] <Jc2k> :)
[03:41] <Keybuk> the sync project stuff?
[03:44] <Jc2k> aye
[03:45] <Keybuk> yeah, there's a few people working on that for 8.04
[03:47] <Jc2k> nice that they are getting in touch...
[03:47] <Keybuk> how do you mean?
[03:48] <Jc2k> i've not heard anything from martin or anyone else and theres been no mention of it on ubuntu dd
[03:48] <Keybuk> wouldn't be yet
[03:48] <Keybuk> we're still in the 7.10 release cycle
[03:48] <Jc2k> ahh
[03:48] <Keybuk> 8.04 doesn't begin for another couple of weeks
[03:49] <Jc2k> i know that theres a RH guy really interested in Conduit, so i was hoping to get a bit of cross-distro love
[03:49] <Jc2k> but i really want some flashy "here i am plugging in my phone and it just working" demo before i go pimping again! :)
[03:50] <Keybuk> the trouble with cross-distro love is that the distros don't tend to love each other ;)
[03:50] <Jc2k> aye :(
[03:51] <Jc2k> i'll love the distro that loves me i guess
[03:52] <Jc2k> unfortunately there arent any local (at least inside UK) get togethers i know of in the near term where I can pimp Conduit and/or get help with the fiddly polishy bits needed to support some of the devices we want to support
[03:53] <Jc2k> i think the nearest is going to be, ironic as its so far, linux conf au
[03:53] <Jc2k> or lug radio us
[04:16] <Jc2k> Keybuk: think i'm going to resort to "pupstart" unless you have any ideas.
[04:16] <Jc2k> i.e. a subset of upstart in python solely focused on my simple needs
[04:17] <Keybuk> init can't be written in Python
[04:17] <Keybuk> you'll end up with a machine full of zombie processes, and a non-functioning init :p
[04:17] <Keybuk> (not without rewriting the C bits of Python, anyway)
[04:18] <Jc2k> eh
[04:18] <Jc2k> it wouldnt be init
[04:19] <Keybuk> what would it be then?
[04:19] <Jc2k> some event -> start a program, some event -> stop a program
[04:19] <Jc2k> primarily hal events
[04:20] <Keybuk> if it's not an init daemon, please don't call it "upstart" or anything even similar
[04:20] <Jc2k> and able to deal with multiple copies of same programs
[04:20] <Keybuk> otherwise that will just confuse people
[04:20] <Jc2k> ok
[04:20] <Keybuk> you already have that though -- it's called D-BUS :p
[04:20] <Jc2k> eh
[04:20] <Jc2k> really?
[04:21] <Keybuk> that does most of it already
[04:21] <Jc2k> do i have to add dbus to everything though
[04:21] <Keybuk> probably
[04:21] <Keybuk> this is not a bad thing
[04:22] <Jc2k> alas a bit much for my weak C skills
[04:22] <Jc2k> might be doable for the synce case though
[04:23] <ion_> Perhaps gutsy just contains too old versions of opensync and conduit, but i dont seem to be able to sync two evolutions over the network using either one. :-\
[04:24] <Keybuk>    conduit |    0.3.2-1 | http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Packages
[04:24] <Jc2k> i wet myself when i made the video.
[04:24] <Keybuk>   opensync | 0.19-1.2ubuntu1 | http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/main Sources
[04:24] <ion_> (d be nice if conduit and opensync were integrated somehow, btw.)
[04:24] <Jc2k> its *really* sweet
[04:24] <Jc2k> conduit is up to 0.3.4
[04:24] <Jc2k> the network sync hasn't been released, you need to run svn
[04:25] <Jc2k> opensync, 0.19 is ancient.
[04:25] <Jc2k> ion_: i'm working to let opensync be used from conduit
[04:25] <ion_> Nice
[04:25] <Keybuk> nothing newer in Debian
[04:25] <Jc2k> atm i am able to use opensync plugins in conduit
[04:25] <Jc2k> and hoping to support multiple sync engines soon too
[04:26] <Jc2k> meant to be going to germany to collaborate with them soon
[04:27] <Jc2k> anyway, if there are any conduit questions im happy to answer on #conduit (GIMPnet), but back on topic
[04:28] <Jc2k> doing this all in dbus has implications on the scope of upstart?
[04:28] <Jc2k> e.g. equally some of boot up (sh/w)ould be handled by the dbus system activation patches?
[04:29] <Keybuk> yes
[04:30] <Keybuk> in a 100% new-world desktop, the only init supervised services would be udev/hal, d-bus and gdm
[04:30] <Keybuk> (though that ignores things like mounting filesystems, etc. - but then RH have a single shell script for all that)
[04:30] <Jc2k> what about crashes
[04:31] <Jc2k> should some of these dbus triggered services self-heal or just wait to be needed
[04:31] <Keybuk> who knows
[04:31] <Jc2k> :)
[04:31] <Keybuk> this is why Upstart development has stalled for a while
[04:31] <Keybuk> figuring out how it fits in
[04:32] <Jc2k> the thing i still dont understand in the new-world desktop is how services die.
[04:32] <Jc2k> i want things to go away..
[04:34] <Keybuk> I think we have to consider D-BUS signals a key part of the system
[04:34] <Keybuk> which means that they need to be able to start and stop processes on their own
[04:35] <Keybuk> it makes sense to have a ServiceManager daemon that handles this
[04:35] <Keybuk> which makes room for Upstart
[04:35] <Keybuk> (it then makes sense for D-BUS and HAL to use that ServiceManager for their own activation purposes)
[04:35] <Keybuk> the difficulty comes in two stages:
[04:35] <Keybuk>  1) how are D-BUS signals captured, and converted into useful environment for the service being started
[04:35] <Keybuk>  2) what about events that aren't D-BUS signals yet?
[04:37] <Jc2k> it depends on what information will be needed for (2), but from the outsider position wrapper seems doable to inject faux dbus signals
[04:37] <Keybuk> the annoying thing is how hard D-BUS signals are to define
[04:37] <Jc2k> aye
[04:38] <Jc2k> perhaps the hal path, key, value approach would work?
[04:39] <Jc2k> the signal would always be a path, key and value
[04:39] <Jc2k> or perhaps a list of
[04:39] <Keybuk> The DpmsModeChanged signal in the org.gnome.PowerManager interface emitted from the /org/gnome/PowerManager object by the org.gnome.PowerManager service
[04:40] <Jc2k> i was thinking we'd be able to control all the signals, but of course we might want to respond to other signals
[04:40] <Keybuk> (and that's for objects you can name!  You can't reliably name objects from HAL!)
[04:40] <Jc2k> so artificially restricting the kinds of signals that are interesting is not possible...
[04:41] <Keybuk> yeah
[04:41] <Jc2k> is dbus introspectable enough from C land that we could have a FDI-alike?
[04:42] <Keybuk> yes
[04:42] <Keybuk> but then we're in FDI hell
[04:42] <Jc2k> with great power comes great pains in the butt
[04:42] <Keybuk> and sometimes a signal is just a signal
[04:42] <Keybuk> and contains no useful information
[04:43] <Keybuk> you need to make an object call to obtain the information about the signal
[04:43] <Jc2k> and at this point we have a desire for a minimal scripting language
[04:44] <Jc2k> and the equal opposite desire for fear of the untold danger involved in such a thing
[04:44] <Keybuk> so you can see why this needs careful thought :p
[04:44] <Jc2k> indeed.
[04:44] <Jc2k> hopefully pestering you will help you decide whats best ;)
[04:45] <Keybuk> heh
[04:45] <Keybuk> I haven't had time to sit down and understand D-BUS
[04:45] <Keybuk> and more particularly, how it's used
[04:46] <Keybuk> if I had a list of the signals, methods, etc. that all the usual desktop bits generated, then I would have a better idea
[04:46] <Keybuk> since that would infer what to listen for
[04:46] <Jc2k> eh
[04:46] <Jc2k> i've tried to understand it
[04:47] <Jc2k> and i hurted :P
[04:47] <Jc2k> the current case seems to be that the initial uses of dbus were a bit crap and not how the API was intended to be used
[04:47] <Jc2k> but that this is improving
[04:48] <Keybuk> yeah
[04:48] <Keybuk> but they won't drop them :p
[04:48] <Jc2k> :p
[05:22] <Jc2k> i had an idea
[05:22] <Jc2k> then i tried to replay it in my head
[05:22] <Jc2k> and forgot the best bit
[05:22] <Jc2k> -_-
[05:22] <Jc2k> i hate jet lag
 15:17:12> +init can't be written in Python
 15:17:25> +you'll end up with a machine full of zombie processes, and a non-functioning init :p
[05:22] <AlexExtreme> ^^ pardus wrote their init in python ;)
[05:23] <Jc2k> AlexExtreme: i knew there was one distro that did, forgot its name.. thx
[05:23] <Jc2k> wait
[05:23] <AlexExtreme> although, it's rather buggy :P
[05:24] <Jc2k> AlexExtreme: have i seen you in #ylug or #lugradio at all?
[05:24] <AlexExtreme> I don't think so
[05:24] <AlexExtreme> at least, I don't remember ever being in either of those
[05:24] <Jc2k> hmmm
[05:24] <Jc2k> its going to bother me now :)
[05:25] <Keybuk> AlexExtreme: heh
[05:25] <Keybuk> the Python problem is that it doesn't handle signals properly
[05:25] <Keybuk> it handles them well enough for user space
[05:25] <Keybuk> but init has different signal semantics
[05:26] <AlexExtreme> yes
[05:28] <Jc2k> i was thinking along the lines of mapping the entire boot sequence and saying which things belonged to dbus activation and which things still need init and any other categories along the way
[05:29] <Jc2k> i was also thinking that this whole stalemate is because of the big picture
[05:29] <Jc2k> trying to make sure upstart is ready for everything, without even knowing what everything is
[05:31] <Jc2k> on the python thing
[05:32] <Jc2k> could init be chained?
[05:32] <Jc2k> as in, the actual init just starts a python init which is then "orginary"
[05:32] <Jc2k> perhaps the "raw" upstart has the service start/stop api
[05:33] <Jc2k> e.g. org.something.ServiceManager
[05:33] <Jc2k> and then python pokes the other services
[05:34] <Keybuk> the python init is still not ordinary
[05:34] <Keybuk> since it's still pid #1
[05:34] <Jc2k> eh
[05:35] <Keybuk> unless the python process was forked
[05:35] <Keybuk> in which case, you lose the special powers you get as pid #1
[05:35] <Keybuk> which are the reason to be pid #1 in the first place
[05:35] <Jc2k> i was going for making the special powers to be dbus exposed
[05:35] <Keybuk> splitting Upstart into a ServiceManager component and a ServiceActivator component has been discussed
[05:35] <Keybuk> the thought was that /sbin/init would be pid #1
[05:36] <Keybuk> and would expose the org.freedesktop.ServiceManager interface
[05:36] <Keybuk> and then you'd start other things that used that interface to start and stop processes
[05:36] <Keybuk> though it's not clear how you handle blocking in that scenario
[05:36] <Keybuk> (where when you start apache, it blocks waiting for other services to start first)
[05:38] <Jc2k> and presumably in that case the ServiceActivator is "normal"?
[05:39] <Jc2k> dont really grok the apache case. are you saying that apache shouldnt start until other things are ready, or that other things shouldnt start until apache is ready?
[05:40] <Keybuk> both
[05:40] <Amaranth> Jc2k: Both
[05:40] <Amaranth> heh
[05:40] <Keybuk> if you've got tomcat installed, it should be started if apache is starting
[05:41] <Keybuk> and apache should wait until tomcat is started before continuing
[05:41] <Jc2k> how is that handled in the current case? the init script doesnt exit until apache is ready?
[05:41] <Jc2k> sorry for nub questions btw
[05:41] <Keybuk> current case?
[05:42] <Jc2k> as in, why does moving to ServiceManager  ServiceActivator make this different?
[05:42] <Jc2k> presumably ServiceManager can just issue a signal when a process is loaded?
[05:43] <Jc2k> kind of like Twisted has Defer's
[05:43] <Keybuk> but then ServiceManager has to block :)
[05:43] <Keybuk> ie. when does it decide to carry on
[05:43] <Jc2k> when the signal fires?
[05:44] <Jc2k> i imagine it would be painful in C land, but twisted python is pretty good at pausing where its at until a signal completes
[05:45] <Keybuk> but D-BUS has no notion of signal completion
[05:45] <Keybuk> it'd actually need to be a method
[05:45] <Keybuk> which is somewhat kooky, since who is the method against?
[05:45] <Amaranth> or fire a 'finished' signal
[05:45] <Jc2k> maybe "completes" was a bad choice
[05:46] <Jc2k> i call StartProcess and then attach to a signal called ProcessStarted
[05:47] <Jc2k> also dbus does have a way to specify a function to call when the method completes
[05:47] <Jc2k> so you can StartProcess(some, params, reply_handler=self.Started_Cb)
[05:47] <Jc2k> where self is an object containing enough info to carry on
[05:48] <Keybuk> err?
[05:48] <Keybuk> sorry, not following
[05:48] <Jc2k> 1s
[05:59] <Jc2k> Keybuk: http://pastebin.com/d80f7e06 <- make any sense?
[06:00] <Jc2k> aside from the fact that its not even close to valid python...
[06:03] <Amaranth> it's pretty close :)
[06:03] <Jc2k> Amaranth: i puked when i re-read it.
[06:10] <Keybuk> Jc2k: the problem is, how does the StupidManager send out the message that the job is starting
[06:10] <Keybuk> and thereby give other processes the option to handle that message, and delay the starting of the job
[06:10] <Amaranth> oh, uh, ouch
[06:12] <Jc2k> Keybuk: i guess that such delays should be handled before you go to ServiceManager
[06:12] <Jc2k> ?
[06:14] <Jc2k> actually no
[06:15] <Jc2k> so theres a difference between the Apache job and the apache process?
[06:15] <Keybuk> dunno
[06:15] <Jc2k> you start ./apache and ./tomcot before  the apache "job" is ready
[06:15] <Jc2k> *tomcat even
[06:21] <Jc2k> Keybuk: are you going to be near IRC tonight?
[06:21] <Keybuk> yeah probably
[06:21] <Jc2k> okies
[06:22] <Jc2k> i have to commute for a bit now, so i'll think about another version of my pastebin
[06:22] <Jc2k> it will treat a job as something different from a process
[06:22] <Jc2k> which i think is the key to it satisfy your needs
[06:40] <Keybuk> interesting
[06:40] <Keybuk> so GNOME Power Manager is entirely implemented through HAL D-BUS stuff
[06:41] <Keybuk> signal sender=:1.10 -> dest=(null destination) path=/org/freedesktop/PowerManagement; interface=org.freedesktop.PowerManagement; member=OnBatteryChanged
[06:41] <Keybuk>    boolean false
[06:42] <Keybuk> actually, sorry, that's wrong
[06:42] <Keybuk> since that's not coming from HAL
[06:42] <Keybuk> even though the docs say it will
[06:46] <Keybuk> GNOME developers should be banned from uploading anything without docs
[06:47] <Keybuk> (says the author of the most undocumented init system there is :p)
[06:56] <ion_> :-)
[06:57] <Keybuk> though I'm making some kind of process
[06:58] <Keybuk> e.g. "running while a battery is present"
[06:59] <Keybuk> => listen to HAL for DeviceAdded/DeviceRemoved signals, take the object path and then check for the "battery" capability, it has it, check the "battery.present" property is "true"
[07:00] <Keybuk> (also obviously listen for changes to that property, as well as the NewCapability signal in case some existing object becomes a battery)
[07:01] <Keybuk> so this requires a combination of method calls and signals
[07:06] <Keybuk> this strongly implies the need for upstart-addon-hal
[07:10] <Keybuk> likewise similar for avahi
[07:10] <Keybuk> since for that you need a ServiceBrowser for each thing you want to watch for
[09:11] <Jc2k> Keybuk: still not grokking the big problem
[09:12] <Keybuk> it's quite complex to explain :-/
[09:12] <Jc2k> tell me about it
[09:12] <Jc2k> i feel like im missing something obvious
[09:13] <Jc2k> before upstart i implemented an event based job manager for my old company
[09:13] <Jc2k> events were simpler there
[09:13] <Jc2k> timer events, file change events and "job x finished" events
[09:13] <Jc2k> each job was dependant on multiple events
[09:14] <Jc2k> and then i had a set of god awful queries to work out which jobs were due to run
[09:14] <Keybuk> right
[09:14] <Jc2k> that could handle all kinds of edge cases
[09:14] <Keybuk> it's the god awful bit that causes us issues
[09:14] <Jc2k> well in my case, the god awful came from having to build it out of ms access and vbscript :P
[09:14] <Keybuk> heh
[09:15] <Keybuk> ok, let me try and quickly explain
[09:15] <Keybuk> jobs can be manually or automatically started and stopped
[09:15] <Keybuk> manual is by initctl, automatic is by events
[09:15] <Keybuk> jobs also generate events themselves
[09:15] <Keybuk> four of them
[09:15] <Keybuk>  starting = I'm about to start, but nothing has been run yet
[09:15] <Keybuk>  started = I'm now running and ready for action
[09:16] <Keybuk>  stopping = I'm about to stop, but nothing has been killed yet
[09:16] <Keybuk>  stopped = I'm no longer running
[09:16] <Keybuk> thus the events that jobs can be automatically started/stopped by aren't just external forces like battery status, but can also be based on other jobs
[09:16] <Keybuk> so if HAL depends on D-BUS, it can be started by the "started dbus" event and stopped by the "stopping dbus" event
[09:17] <Keybuk> that way HAL is never running when d-bus isn't
[09:17] <Jc2k> grokking so far
[09:17] <Keybuk> events in Upstart have the notion of completion
[09:17] <Keybuk> initctl emit foo will actually wait until that event emission has completed
[09:17] <Keybuk> the completion of an event is when all jobs that reacted to it have reached their goal state
[09:17] <Keybuk> (running for services, stopped again for tasks)
[09:18] <Keybuk> so if I have a service that's started "on foo", "initctl emit foo" will actually show the progress of that service, and not return until that service is running
[09:18] <Keybuk> this means events also have failure
[09:18] <Keybuk> if that service fails to start, initctl emit foo will actually exit 1
[09:18] <Keybuk> (if no services are affected by the event, the event completes immediately)
[09:19] <Keybuk> ok?
[09:19] <Jc2k> grokking :)
[09:19] <Jc2k> good so far
[09:19] <Keybuk> right
[09:20] <Keybuk> so upstart uses this event completion internally for the starting and stopping job events
[09:20] <Keybuk> when the service emits the starting event, it will not proceed until the starting event has completed
[09:20] <Keybuk> likewise for the stopping event
[09:20] <Keybuk> so if I have a small task that's run "on stopping mysql" (e.g. to backup the database), mysql *will not be stopped* until that task completes
[09:21] <Keybuk> since services only need to reach running or stopped, this also provides upstart's dependency mechanism
[09:21] <Jc2k> so even though mysqld isnt running, the mysql "job" is still "stopping"
[09:21] <Keybuk> no
[09:21] <Keybuk> mysqld *IS* running
[09:21] <Keybuk> upstart hasn't killed it yet
[09:21] <Jc2k> ahh
[09:21] <Jc2k> ok
[09:22] <Keybuk> (or it might not be, if mysqld died, but that's a different story :p)
[09:22] <Jc2k> lol
[09:22] <Keybuk> the event does actually tell you why mysql is stopping
[09:22] <Keybuk> on stopping mysql failed main
[09:22] <Keybuk>   EXIT_SIGNAL=SEGV
[09:22] <Keybuk> for example
[09:23] <Keybuk> anyway, digressing
[09:23] <Keybuk> since services only need to reach running or stopping, this provides Upstart's dependency system
[09:23] <Keybuk> the tomcat server, if installed, is a dependency of Apache
[09:23] <Keybuk> (web sites use it)
[09:23] <Keybuk> so the tomcat job can specify:
[09:23] <Keybuk>   start on starting apache
[09:23] <Keybuk>   stop on stopped apache
[09:24] <Keybuk> now, if you "start apache" the following will happen:
[09:24] <Keybuk> the apache job emits the starting apache event
[09:24] <Keybuk> which starts the tomcat job (event is now blocked)
[09:24] <Keybuk> the tomcat job issues starting tomcat, runs its various scripts, and eventually the tomcat daemon is running
[09:24] <Keybuk> tomcat job emits started tomcat
[09:24] <Keybuk> and the event is now unblocked
[09:24] <Keybuk> and thus the event completes
[09:24] <Keybuk> apache can now start, run its various scripts, and the httpd daemon
[09:25] <Keybuk> so the tomcat job, by being started when apache is starting (rather than started) can make itself a dependency of apache
[09:25] <Keybuk> (and rather usefully, it becomes tied to the lifecyle of apache - you don't have to think of it as a separate service)
[09:26] <Jc2k> got it
[09:27] <Jc2k> so with start on starting apache we make sure tomcat starts before apache
[09:27] <Keybuk> exactly
[09:27] <Jc2k> so i cant actually do my python demo without mixing in dependencies
[09:27] <Keybuk> this is the bit that's hard to implement with a separated service manager and automation manager core
[09:28] <Keybuk> since the service manager needs to be able to block the service on things that the automation manager knows
[09:29] <Jc2k> i still think i can do it with async dbus
[09:29] <Jc2k> though i worry i missed something
[09:29] <Keybuk> the problem with dbus is that you need to specify someone to ask :)
[09:29] <Keybuk> signals have no completion
[09:29] <Keybuk> so the starting/stopping events can't be signals
[09:29] <Keybuk> (we'd never know whether something cared)
[09:29] <Keybuk> they have to be methods
[09:29] <Keybuk> and you can't have an open method
[09:29] <Keybuk> you have to know who you're asking
[09:30] <Keybuk> at which point, why have two processes since they're inherently coupled anyway?
[09:30] <Jc2k> are we saying that the problem is that when ServiceManager raises a signal you no longer know what that signal is about?
[09:31] <Keybuk> no
[09:31] <Keybuk> that it doesn't know whether anyone cared about the signal
[09:31] <Keybuk> or whether those who cared about the signal did anything about it
[09:31] <Jc2k> this is the bit where i dont get it :)
[09:32] <Jc2k> im ok up to where i said "i worry i missed something"
[09:32] <Jc2k> then my world fell apart
[09:32] <Keybuk> heh
[09:32] <Keybuk> which bit don't you get?
[09:32] <Keybuk> you understand how Upstart events work wrt completion?>
[09:33] <Jc2k> apache is starting, but tomcat has to start first, so tomcat starts. apache is still in the starting state until tomcat is started.. then apache finishes starting and it is started...
[09:33] <Jc2k> all that stuff makes sense
[09:34] <Keybuk> right
[09:34] <Jc2k> i dont understand how it breaks down when the service is split in 2
[09:34] <Jc2k> i dont understand what is lost
[09:35] <Keybuk> the way that events work :)
[09:35] <Keybuk> because D-BUS doesn't support that at all
[09:36] <Jc2k> i see that it doesnt support that natively
[09:36] <Keybuk> exactly
[09:36] <Keybuk> you can't use signals to do it
[09:36] <Keybuk> you have to use methods
[09:36] <Keybuk> does that make sense?
[09:37] <Jc2k> but most of the state should be in the automation manager..
[09:37] <Jc2k> if i can prototype it, you buy me beer?
[09:37] <Keybuk> :)
[09:37] <Keybuk> sure
[09:37] <Keybuk> does it make sense that you can't use D-BUS signals?
[09:37] <Keybuk> because they are fire-and-forget
[09:38] <Jc2k> kind of
[09:38] <Jc2k> im going to try to use async method calls first
[09:39] <Keybuk> so the problem with method calls is that, in D-BUS, you must know your target
[09:39] <Keybuk> I can't tell the world that a job is starting
[09:39] <Keybuk> I can only tell one person
[09:39] <Keybuk> (I can tell the world with signals, but I cannot find out whether the world cared)
[09:40] <Keybuk> with a method, I can tell one person, and they can give me a result
[09:40] <Keybuk> but I have to hard-code that one person
[09:40] <Jc2k> right
[09:40] <Jc2k> now i understand.
[09:40] <Jc2k> and i scratch my freshly shaved beard.
[09:41] <Jc2k> but...
[09:41] <Keybuk> so since the service manager would have the name of the policy bit hard-coded
[09:41] <Keybuk> why have them separate at all? :p
[09:41] <Jc2k> no.
[09:41] <Jc2k> brain failing... holding on to thread of something...
[09:41] <Jc2k> i think we are talking about different services
[09:42] <Jc2k> in my mind i was assuming that pid 1 *soley* starts and stops single processes
[09:42] <Jc2k> but in actual fact
[09:42] <Jc2k> pid 1 starts and stops jobs
[09:42] <Jc2k> which is why the dependency stuff comes in and starts being awkward
[09:43] <Jc2k> in my mind i was thinking that was in pid 2 or wherever, hence why i didnt grok that there would be a problem
[09:44] <Jc2k> so essentially dbus sucks because you can ask it to do something, it can poke you and tell you something happened but it can't poke you and ask you a question
[09:45] <Jc2k> Keybuk: did that make sense?
[09:46] <Keybuk> yup that makes sense
[09:46] <Keybuk> I don't think you need to separate processes and jobs?
[09:46] <Jc2k> no, i just misunderstood a key point :P
[09:47] <Jc2k> i still have an idea, but i want to have a play with it first.
[09:49] <Keybuk> ok
[09:53] <Jc2k> the basic idea is to flip it around and have things that are interested in events expose an interface of their own
[09:54] <Jc2k> so signal Announce from org,frestuff,EventListener at /org/freestuff/EventListener/<some_uid>
[09:54] <Jc2k> that interface would allow events to block
[09:54] <Jc2k> but though it works
[09:54] <Jc2k> its still messy
[09:55] <Jc2k> hmm


[13:04] <tauren> i'm considering migrating an init.d script to upstart. I've looked through the files in /etc/init, but I don't really get what gets run when you stop a service.
[13:04] <tauren> basically, my init.d script sets up a bunch of iptables rules, and when it is stopped, I want to remove them.
[13:11] <tauren> i see some scripts don't have a script or exec, they only have pre-start and post-stop. Maybe that's how I need to do it.
[13:11] <Keybuk> put them in a post-stop script
[13:11] <Keybuk> yes
[13:11] <Keybuk> then your job is "running" when the rules are in place
[13:11] <tauren> Keybuk, ok, cool.
[13:11] <Keybuk> even though there's no process associated
[13:11] <tauren> that makes sense now.
[13:12] <tauren> in my init.d script, I have another command that I can run:  service firewall report
[13:12] <tauren> can I add new "commands" with upstart?
[13:13] <tauren> Keybuk: basically, the report command just does:  iptables -nvx -t filter -L ACCOUNTING
[13:15] <Keybuk> not yet
[13:15] <Keybuk> it's planned
[13:16] <tauren> Keybuk, ok, thanks
[13:30] <tauren> Keybuk: any reason why I'm not getting any echo output?  I've got console output in my firewall.conf file and my pre-start script contains echo "Test", but doing start firewall doesn't respond with "Test"
[13:57] <tauren> oh, I see. Including "console output" makes the output go to the console. duh. But when I remove that, I still don't see the echo output at the command line when I run "start firewall"
[14:01] <Keybuk> removing that makes the output go to /dev/null
[15:39] <tauren> Keybuk, is there a way to get echos to be output then? Besides to the console or /dev/null?
[15:39] <Keybuk> no
[15:40] <tauren> i've got my upstart script working perfectly, and am currently doing:  echo "Informational message" >> /tmp/firewall.out
[15:40] <tauren> but i would prefer the output to be on stdout.
[15:40] <tauren> ok then. thanks anyway!
[15:41] <Keybuk> right
[15:41] <Keybuk> but which stdout? :p
[15:42] <tauren> yeah, i see your point.  i mean if someone enters "start firewall" via an ssh session, they should see the output. but i wasn't thinking this would also be run at other times too.
[21:39] <tauren> what's the best way to start a service running as a particular user?
[21:40] <ion> su
[21:41] <tauren> i mean, i will create a new file /etc/init/jetty.conf, but I want the script that starts jetty to run as a user on the system.
[22:28] <tauren> Here is my upstart conf file: http://pastie.org/865735
[22:28] <tauren> when I do a "start jetty", a java process gets started
[22:28] <tauren> and it reports that it is started with a pid
[22:28] <tauren> but "status jetty" says it isn't running
[22:29] <tauren> and "stop jetty" doesn't work
[22:29] <tauren> how can I make this script start jetty as a user, and then be able to stop it by running "/home/$username/jetty/stop.sh" as the user?
[22:41] <Keybuk> "expect fork" or "expect daemon"
[23:26] <tauren> Keybuk, thanks, i'll try that


[03:53] <Layer8> hi all
[03:54] <Layer8> i'd like to use an old edgy kernel-image unter feisty...would that work?
[11:48] <Nafallo> hmm. anyone knows if there is support for the WWAN in Dell D630? :-)