[00:17] <mykrobinson> evening, all
[00:23] <MountainX> Jordan_U: use an ext2 /boot partition with your btrfs /
[00:25] <dualMoon> so, first off, any *known* issues installing WINE in 12.04b1?
[00:27] <dualMoon> alright, well I s'pose that answers that.
[00:28] <dualMoon> so here's what I'm hitting when I try to install WINE. I've tried with and without the WINE Team PPA.
[00:28] <dualMoon>   gettext-base: Conflicts: gettext-base but <IP_ADDRESS>-5ubuntu3 is to be installed.
[00:28] <dualMoon>   gettext-base: Conflicts: gettext-base but <IP_ADDRESS>-5ubuntu3 is installed.
[00:36] <Pru> Where can I find info about Partial Upgrade to 12.04 beta?
[00:36] <micahg> dualMoon: that package ins't multiarch'd yet
[00:37] <Pru> Becasue "An upgrade from 'precise' to 'oneiric' is not supported with this tool."
[00:39] <dualMoon> micahg: ah. i think i understand what that means. anyway i understand the consequences. I assume there's no word on when it will be, eh?
[00:39] <micahg> dualMoon: please file a bug and tag multiarch with steps to reproduce
[00:40] <Pru> No word on when. But is there a work around?
[00:40] <meerkats> will 12.04 be released at the beginning or end of 4?
[00:40] <Daekdroom> !schedule | meerkats
[00:44] <Pru> So I made a mistake trying to Update from 11 to 12beta with out sufficient time for a full install and had to run and shut down. Now I can't get to beta. I feel like this isn't the place for such an amateur question.
[00:44] <Pru> AskUbuntu sent me here...
[00:46] <tomreyn> shuttng down during an upgrade surely isn't a good idea... you could probably fix it now using apt-get on the command line
[00:48] <tomreyn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Upgrades
[00:50] <Dulak> Is the precise kernel affected by the 3.x kernel power regression or is it fixed?  Anyone know?
[00:55] <Daekdroom> Dulak, I think the fix was backported to the Ubuntu kernel.
[00:57] <Dulak> Daekdroom: sweet, thanks, gonna try precise out on my netbook, just didn't want to lose battery from the upgrade
[00:57] <Fyodorovna> tomreyn, try this is a terminal sudo dpkg --configure -a && sudo apt-get -f install
[01:00] <tomreyn> Fyodorovna: i think you want to walk to Pru
[01:00] <Fyodorovna> tomreyn, ?
[01:01] <tomreyn> Fyodorovna: you seem to be responding to a question i have not asked.
[01:02] <Pru> I too am confused
[01:02] <Fyodorovna> tomreyn, ah Doh sorry..  try this is a terminal sudo dpkg --configure -a && sudo apt-get -f install  Pru
[01:03] <Pru> Errors... Do you want specifics?
[01:06] <blair> will 12.04 have gcc 4.7 packages, as it looks like it's releasing next week?
[01:07] <snadge> luls
[01:07] <snadge> blair: I would guess.. no
[01:07] <snadge> unless it happens to fix a bunch of existing issues without creating many more
[01:08] <blair> snadge, i don't except the whole OS to be recompiled, just wondering if packages will be available; it'll be nice to have more C++11 support
[01:08] <Daekdroom> We're way past FeatureFreeze, blair
[01:08] <Daekdroom> !info gcc
[01:11] <blair> does FeatureFreeze include non-"core" packages?  i get that 4.6.3 will be the default compiler, but ubuntu has 4.4, 4.5 also, so it could provide 4.7?
[01:11] <snadge> im reasonably happy with precise as it stands.. i mean.. i use it on 5 systems
[01:11] <Pru> So since I messed up during my upgrade from 11.10 to 12.04b and Cannot Partial Upgrade how can I get back to 11.10?
[01:11] <snadge> you could always install it yourself from a ppa or something like that
[01:11] <snadge> or use debian sid ;)
[01:12] <blair> true, somebody will probably make a ppa with it
[01:12] <blair> well, i'm trying to get our company to move 500 desktops from fedora 13 to 12.04, debian sid won't work ;)
[01:12] <snadge> lol @ fedora on the desktop.. i have an f16 vm
[01:12] <snadge> i can see why you're wanting to migrate away from it
[01:13] <Daekdroom> Pru, getting back to 11.10 is not doable even when 12.04 is working alright. Reinstall.
[01:13] <snadge> they use systemd.. *shudders*.. im glad ubuntu has resisted that
[01:13] <snadge> or was that a debian decision.. i dont know
[01:13] <Daekdroom> Doesn't Ubuntu use upstart instead?
[01:13] <Daekdroom> Which has its own share of criticism?
[01:14] <snadge> right but systemd supposedly supercedes upstart
[01:14] <micahg> snadge: that's not necessarily true
[01:14] <snadge> i cant remember why exactly.. but the most horrible part about systemd is the ugly new syntax
[01:14] <snadge> and lack of backwards compatibility
[01:15] <snadge> at least upstart got that part right
[01:15] <snadge> systemd appears to throw the baby out with the bath water
[01:16] <snadge> and uses a confusing way to access it.. systemctl.. when theres already a sysctl
[01:23] <snadge> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html
[01:23] <snadge> fascinating :)
[01:23] <snadge> http://undacuvabrutha.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/why-ubuntu-should-continue-with-upstart-for-11-10/
[01:23] <scientes> snadge, systemd is nice
[01:23] <scientes> and its alot easier to get your head around than upstart
[01:23] <snadge> those two articles contain probably more than you could ever want to know about upstart and systemd.. and why ubuntu is still using upstart.. and what makes systemd apparently so much better
[01:23] <scientes> and does a hell of alot better stuff
[01:24] <scientes> snadge, socket activation
[01:24] <snadge> i just wish he had've used something other than "systemctl" to interface with it
[01:24] <snadge> that annoys me for some reason
[01:24] <snadge> the guy is a smart guy.. but he sucks at choosing names for things and interfacing with it
[01:25] <scientes> its fine
[01:25] <scientes> you are making a bikeshed argument
[01:25] <jelmer> scientes: socket activation is only useful in a limited number of cases (desktop system with some daemons that are irregularly used)
[01:25] <jelmer> scientes: upstart can do it too, if necessary
[01:25] <scientes> jelmer, no, it support persistant socket activation
[01:25] <scientes> also cgroup clean killing
[01:25] <scientes> and socket activation is _very_ important for parallel startup
[01:26] <snadge> the best part about upstart on ubuntu.. is you dont need to know how it works if you're just an end user
[01:26] <jelmer> scientes: what is persistant socket activation?
[01:26] <snadge> you can use the service command.. or the original init.d scripts
[01:26] <scientes> so you can just start everything, and it only blocks when it needs something back, but ifs a one-direction socket it can just write to a buffer
[01:26] <scientes> and it enables services to restart without interruption
[01:26] <Dulak> Mmm, keyboard layout is defaulting to the regular english instead of the dvorak one I have set as highest priority...  Anyone can confirm this?
[01:26] <jelmer> scientes: it also means you don't start something until the moment something else opens the socket
[01:26] <scientes> jelmer, i forget what systemd calls it, but it starts up ont he first connection, and it can controll when to shutdown, not started for every connection
[01:27] <scientes> jelmer, but if you shut down, then socket activation still works
[01:27] <scientes> which allows you to be much smarted with RAM usage
[01:27] <scientes> *smarter
[01:28] <jelmer> meh, RAM is cheap and the overhead of a daemon that's not doing anything is usually negligable
 meh, RAM is cheap and the overhead of a daemon that's not doing anything is usually negligable
[01:28] <scientes> ram is _NOT_ cheap
[01:28] <scientes> oh, geeze, to that statement
[01:28] <jelmer> I'd rather just have the daemon started earlier so the response time is lower
[01:29] <Pru> Thanks Daekdroom! I thought. Maybe in a couple of years Ill be able to hand with all of you
[01:29] <scientes> systemd is way better
[01:29] <scientes> it will improve boot times significantly
[01:29] <scientes> and doesn't require a kernel patch for readahead
[01:29] <scientes> like upstart does
[01:33] <jelmer> scientes: the memory consumption of most daemons we're talking about here is trivial if they're idle, so in those terms RAM is cheap
[01:33] <jelmer> scientes: systemd delays starting daemons until something accesses them
[01:33] <jelmer> I'd be interested in seeing some comparisons in startup time between systemd, upstart and sysv
[01:33] <jelmer> anyway, sleep
[01:34] <scientes> jelmer, how about cups
[01:34] <scientes> I have a low-power system here that had crazy-ass cupage going on
[01:34] <scientes> and i've never tried to print anything
[01:34] <scientes> with systemd it would never be touched
[01:34] <scientes> until someone actually tried to print
[01:34] <scientes> same with sshd
[01:35] <MountainX> scientes: opensuse uses systemd but it has a bug when the box is an NFS client.
[01:35] <MountainX> And the bug is exactly related to things not starting up in parallel correctly.
[01:35] <scientes> well nfs is in the kernel
[01:35] <jelmer> scientes: you can't use socket activation for CUPS, CUPS does broadcasting of the available printers
[01:35] <scientes> don't need socket activation there
[01:35] <MountainX> networking isn't started when it should be, so the system takes forever to boot up (if it is an NFS client)
[01:35] <scientes> jelmer, systemd does socket activation for cups, also there is a big shit-storm about that broadcasting
[01:35] <MountainX> the solution on opensuse is to switch away from systemd
[01:36] <scientes> hmm, systemd+debian has worked for me
[01:36] <MountainX> I had to switch to system v init on opensuse 12.1 to solve my problem
[01:36] <MountainX> there was no other solution proposed in the thread over there
[01:36] <Daekdroom> Why not fix systemd instead of switching away?
[01:36] <scientes> ^^^
[01:37] <MountainX> ultimately that exact systemd problem is what drove me over here to try Kubuntu 12.04. (where I got a whole new set of problems ;)
[01:37] <jelmer> scientes: you should be comparing to a CUPS that's not broadcasting then though
[01:37] <scientes> MountainX, funny, i have the exact same problem, but with UBUNTU + upstart
[01:37] <MountainX> haha
[01:37] <scientes> my computer has to wait for a 60 sec timeout "waiting for network"
[01:37] <scientes> just because i use interfaces to set up a bridge
[01:38] <scientes> which i guess upstart doesn't like
[01:38] <jelmer> scientes: what is the memory consumption of the idle sshd process, and how long does it take to start up?
[01:38] <scientes> cause i want my virtualmachines bridged
[01:39] <scientes> jelmer, you know you could benchmark that yourself
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> I am testing the kernel in 12.04, any idea when beta 2 will be out ?
[02:06] <Daekdroom> !schedule | bodhi_zazen
[03:09] <bjsnider> "Unlike other distributions, the Fedora / Red Hat developers actively work towards pushing their changes back upstream"
[03:09] <bjsnider> oh, well that's good
[03:13] <vn> I am trying to install ubuntu on my new boxes, without success so far, except natty x86, will try precise after since I want a LTS...are we supposed to be able to do software RAID in non-LTS GUI installs?
[03:14] <bjsnider> what do you mean without success?
[03:16] <vn> CPUs are Core i7-3960X, i7-2600K, FX-8120 and an APU A8-3850, I dont know it its too bleeding edge..
[03:16] <vn> bjsnider: blinking cursor at boot, cant get in grub with shift
[03:20] <bjsnider> i don't know why you'd have any ldm problem
[03:20] <bjsnider> yes, you should be able to use lvm on non-lts releases
[03:20] <vn> more like mdadm
[03:21] <bjsnider> with a blinking cursor you're not getting much troubleshooting data
[03:22] <vn> indeed, got any suggestions?  my friend thinks it's because I have bleeding edge hardware
[03:23] <bjsnider> can you try just doing a normal install, ie. not raid?
[03:24] <vn> OK, let me put back the cpu and note partition infos
[03:26] <bjsnider> i wouldn't call the i7-2600k bleeding edge at this point
[03:29] <vn> indeed, not that one..but for lucid, it is
[03:36] <Belial`> anyone having issues with menus not highlighting in orange?
[03:36] <Belial`> and having to click to get submenus?
[03:51] <vn> bjsnider: normal automated install = blinking cursor too
[03:51] <bjsnider> do the livecds work?
[03:51] <vn> yes
[03:51] <bjsnider> you've got to be missing something here
[03:51] <bjsnider> something's not right
[03:52] <bjsnider> is there something crazy about your hard drives?
[03:52] <bjsnider> because that's the only difference
[03:52] <bjsnider> the livecd works off a cd, and the install off a hard drive
[03:53] <vn> 1x 300gb velociraptor, 2x caviar black 1tb
[03:53] <vn> bios mode is set to AHCI
[03:53] <bjsnider> is it an efi bios?
[03:54] <vn> how do I know?
[03:54] <bjsnider> can you use the mouse in the bios?
[03:54] <vn> motherboard is a p8q67-m DO/CSM
[03:54] <vn> yes
[03:55] <bjsnider> that's efi
[03:55] <vn> :|
[03:55] <vn> so I'm stuck with installing windows..
[03:55] <bjsnider> so check out efi support in grub2. maybe other people have the same issue you do
[03:57] <vn> efi being uefi I guess?
[04:00] <vn> im trying with oneiric, apparently there are patches to circumvent efi
[04:00] <bjsnider> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFIBooting
[04:01] <bjsnider> i would start out by manually partitioning the drive with gpt instead of mbr
[04:02] <vn> is that something new?
[04:03] <bjsnider> gpt is newer and more advanced than mbr, just like efi is more advanced than bios
[04:03] <bjsnider> i'll bet that's your actual issue, is no gpt
[04:03] <bjsnider> but it's not a big deal to do that
[04:04] <vn> ok, trying that
[04:06] <bjsnider> you should also be using 64-bit, but i assume you are
[04:09] <vn> im tryin g x86 and 864 as I had experiences where x86 was better than x64
[04:10] <bjsnider> i'm not sure if this works at all on i386, so that could be your problem
[04:11] <vn> livecd wouldnt boot no?
[04:12] <Jordan_U> !bootinfo | vn
[04:16] <vn> oneiric x84 doesnt even boot the livecd like my main computer,  stdin error 0 and more errors after the splash screen where you tell what you want to do with the cd....I'm gonna burn precise x64 tomorrow (no more cd/dvd-r here) and keep you posted
[04:16] <vn> x64*
[04:31] <andrewaclt> Is anybody aware of a bug where icons show up multiple times in the launcher of applications that are open?
[05:06] <fre3bird> when is release date of pangolin ?
[05:09] <IcemanV9> fre3bird: so far, it's April 26th
[05:09] <fre3bird> thank you
[05:10] <snadge> should be april 1st ;)
[05:10] <snadge> with a real release on the 26th
[05:10] <snadge> trolling people into installing the beta.. interesting idea
[05:11] <vn> xthen it'd be named fishy pangolin
[05:11] <vn> phishy*
[07:02] <MCR> Latest Unity version does not want to start here (Precise). I have to remove Unity completely to make my desktop boot. I am not using any Compiz/Unity PPAs anymore. Also my right mousebutton problem is back (right mousebutton kills Compiz). Can someone help me with that ?
[07:47] <magn3ts> I will pay someone $100 if they would fucking patch rhythmbox to quit on window close like every other application under the sun.
[07:48] <snadge> you can select quit from the menu
[07:48] <snadge> but sure.. i noticed that, kind of annoying
[07:48] <snadge> actually.. its already been patched
[07:49] <micahg> !ohmy | magn3ts
[07:49] <scientes> is there a new chat application instead of empathy?
[07:49] <magn3ts> I'll have to look up who committed the patch.
[07:49] <snadge> actually.. you hit ctrl-q it quits.. if you close it, it continues playing
[07:49] <magn3ts> micahg: my apologies, I get used to being away from #ubuntu
[07:49] <magn3ts> snadge: grrrr
[07:49] <snadge> probably expected and more desirable default behaviour
[07:49] <scientes> http://paste.debian.net/159796/
[07:50] <magn3ts> snadge: what other media player does that?
[07:50] <magn3ts> banshee is configurable, itunes, windows media player quit on close, etc.
[07:50] <micahg> right with sound menu integration, some people just want the window out of the way
[07:50] <magn3ts> micahg: but rhythmbox doesn't respect the presence of the sound menu at all. :/
[07:50] <snadge> yeah.. i guess an option would be nice.. most chat programs i know of that have that behaviour.. its also configurable
[07:50] <magn3ts> micahg: because I do understand that use case
[07:50] <scientes> http://paste.debian.net/159796/ <-- what is going on?
[07:50] <snadge> sure it does.. its in the volume menu
[07:51] <micahg> oh?  it shows up for me
[07:51] <micahg> sorry, I meant sound indicator :)
[07:51] <magn3ts> If I'm not running sound-indicator... I don't want it to keep playing because there's no way to control the music, like for example if someone isn't, cough, running unity
[07:51] <snadge> theres only an option to pause it in the indicator menu as well.. you cant quit from there
[07:52] <snadge> then press ctrl-q :p
[07:52] <snadge> or music -> quit
[07:52] <magn3ts> snadge: apparently... I'm too used to expose mode. I know that hacker types would probably squiel in terror at how I abuse shell's expose feature
[07:53] <magn3ts> anyway, sorry for the outburst, I'm going to go back to django
[07:54] <snadge> if that was my greatest problem with ubuntu.. i would be over the moon
[07:54] <snadge> im more concerned about the things that arn't easily fixable or worked around :P
[07:54] <magn3ts> heh, not the only, just the current :)
[07:55] <magn3ts> actually I'm using rhythmbox because subsonic or flash are nearly literally killing my computer
[07:55] <magn3ts> If I leave firefox and subsonic streaming via Flash, X crashes after about 10-15 minutes. Sometimes it takes down my whole system :[
[08:17] <MCR> I envy you and your problems :). I have no indicators here at all - Unity won't even start :P
[08:17] <MCR> and my right mousebutton kills Compiz ! Yeah !
[08:22] <eruditehermit> hey, is there a way to open the battery usage application from the terminal?
[09:24] <MCR> compiz[3440] trap int3 ip:7f8471cc613b sp:7fffd54c9bd0 error:0
[09:25] <MCR> ^^^when clicking right mousebutton. HELP !
[09:26] <scientes> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/188564
[09:43] <phaidros> ehlo, wanted to do the usual early upgrade to the next ubuntu, but atm it looks like a very dependency hell :)
[09:44] <phaidros> something to do about ? (commented all PPAs and 3rd party sources.lists etc already)
[09:44] <MCR> phaidros: Already killed one system with the upgrade - think twice about it :)
[09:46] <phaidros> MCR: yeah, thought so .. as I didnt look too close, I accepted a safe-upgrade via update-manager. I am not sure I want to reboot now :)
[09:47] <MCR> phaidros: My tip: Never turn off your computer until end of April ;)
[09:47] <phaidros> honestly, this is the first time I ever see an alpha/beta version in that mess, earlier ubuntu pre-releases were much more robust at htat time before release. since years
[09:47] <phaidros> I'd say since dapper
[09:48] <phaidros> MCR: hrhr, at least suspend still works for now, some fonts gone strange, but I can handle that :D
[09:49] <MCR> phaidros: I cannot say that I am satisfied with 12.04 either. A lot of stuff I need is not available (yet) and I am experiencing heavy troubles with Compiz and Unity...
[09:49] <MCR> and cannot get help anywhere
[09:50] <MCR> phaidros: I hope your first reboot will be successful.
[09:50] <zorael> Did netbios hostname resolution behavior change in precise? I've *always* (7.04 and onward or so) gotten it to work with winbind (modifying /etc/nsswitch.conf), but now it simply refuses to work.
[09:51] <zorael> smbtree finds the shares, nslookup just asks my ISP DNS despite wins being entered before dns in said nsswitch.conf
[09:51] <phaidros> hm, unity is considered broken here as well, since its introduction a year ago major problems didnt get fixed. e.g. I have alot of focussing issues, which destroys workflows completely .. I could curse about that every day. it even is harmful every now and then, to have the focus on a window on a different workspace than the one actually visible. (imagine CTRL-q) .. so I hoped 12.04 wil bring fixes for that
[09:52] <MCR> phaidros: I wish I would have just that kind of problems ;)
[09:52] <phaidros> MCR: uh ?! o.O
[09:52] <phaidros> MCR: so it just doesnt work at all for you?
[09:52] <MCR> phaidros: Here Unity fails to start completely and I have to remove it for the desktop to boot.
[09:53] <MCR> phaidros: and clicking the right mousebutton makes compiz crash - HURRA
[09:53] <MCR> phaidros: The strange stuff is: I have removed all Unity/Compiz ppas. I really do not know how to fix it.
[09:54] <MCR> phaidros: Waiting for updates is kind of boring...
[09:56] <MCR> oh, at least I am not alone: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/954079
[09:56] <UrB> heh, joys of pre-versions
[09:57] <UrB> I've had to re-install whole system once this far when I ran out of talent to back down to last working setup
[10:11] <MCR> at least there is a workaround for the right mb problem...
[10:11] <MCR> so I got that functionality back (RMB), while losing the Shift-Switcher
[10:46] <topyli> sometimes my epiphany integrates nicely to the shell, sometimes it still insists on showing the menubar
[10:47] <topyli> this i do not like :\
[11:12] <encrypt_> hi, run an upgrade this morning and networkmanager doesnt work anymore, have tried with iwconfig and cant connect either
[11:21] <encrypt_> pls, i run an upgrade this morning and after rebooting NetworkManager is not working, have to use the live-cd now to get connected
[11:52] <e01> hello
[11:52] <e01> where i can found source of the unity launcher
[12:08] <delight> is there others suffering from this kde-proxy-settings problem in precise 12.04 ? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11636551
[12:08] <delight> is there a ticket to it ?
[13:01] <chronos> Someone more having troubles with 12.04 Nvidia drivers? I can't set my dual monitor setup correctly. The nvidia-settings setup second monitor as first monitor!
[13:02] <chronos> Also I have seeing strips on lightdm start and on KDE start
[13:15] <chronos> back...well, I upgraded things here and still with problems on Nvidia settings
[13:16] <chronos> ubuntu team do something about or just say 'it's with nvidia guys'?
[13:19] <delight> chronos: nvidia-drivers wor fine for me on precise (nVidia Corporation Quadro FX 570M)
[13:56] <chronos> delight: here is completely weird. I'm comming from 11.10 via distupgrade, I don't know if that can be some issue of 11.10 (where the nvidia-config works marking monitor as clone and than as left or right).
[14:17] <jo-erlend> am I the only one who feels the system has been radically worsened since todays upgrades? Everything is slow, unstable and generally poor quality. :(
[15:08] <topyli> gnome-shell's menu integration is a bit broken today. the new gnome apps (web, docs, contacts) are supposed to have their menus transferred to the shell panel. today, i see menus in both the panel and the app window
[15:25] <doda_> hi folks
[15:27] <doda_> where do i check for precise pangolin bugs ?
[15:27] <doda_> i have 2 visible problems
[15:49] <WilsonBradley> Im loving Ubuntu 12.04
[15:49] <WilsonBradley> With all the updates it seems solid
[15:49] <WilsonBradley> I don't want to go back to Windows :-(
[15:49] <andrewaclt> not solid yet :/
[15:52] <WilsonBradley> Well, havent had to many issues ... YET
[15:52] <WilsonBradley> cross my fingers
[15:52] <WilsonBradley> Is there something in Debian that works like System restore?
[15:52] <WilsonBradley> I want to backup everything
[15:53] <atpa8a> hello
[15:53] <atpa8a> any word on if btrfsck will be ready for the final release?
[15:54] <WilsonBradley> ?
[15:57] <bazhang> !find btrfs
[15:58] <bazhang> !info btrfs-tools
[15:58] <atpa8a> right now, btrfsck doesn't do anything
[15:58] <bazhang> atpa8a, not sure if that is included there
[15:58] <WilsonBradley> Thats command line.. looking for a Gui
[15:59] <bazhang> !sbackup | WilsonBradley
[16:00] <bazhang> not much easier gui than that one
[16:00] <WilsonBradley> thank you , Ithink I installed that.. just not sure if it would do a restore like System Restore in Windows... (registry)
[16:00] <atpa8a> i personally like bacula
[16:00] <atpa8a> there's a gui and even monitor for the tray
[16:01] <atpa8a> but i don't use those
[16:01] <bazhang> !info backintime-common
[16:04] <WilsonBradley> Yes, I like back in time.. Will that restore back before a system update?
[16:04] <WilsonBradley> im just SOOOO worried about something updating and fu#$% everything up.. I worked on this for DAYS
[16:07] <WilsonBradley> ?
[16:08] <bazhang> like windows system restore? doubt it
[16:09] <bazhang> generally its good practice to have a separate home partition, and regularly do backups, such as above, with rsync or the myriad other tools available
[16:10] <WilsonBradley> Ya, Iv'e got it scheduled to backup my Home folder.. is that good enough?
[16:11] <bazhang> sure
[16:11] <bazhang> but to be absolutely safe /home is the better idea
[16:11] <bicyclist> Sigh, my gnome 3 installation seems to be broken. No more window decorations.
[16:12] <bicyclist> Anyone any hints?
[16:16] <WilsonBradley> ok, thanks Bazhang.. will keep backing up the Home folder
[16:16] <bazhang> ok
[16:16] <bazhang> !home
[16:17] <WilsonBradley> moving it seems a little risky
[16:17] <WilsonBradley> Im keeping it backed up on a external drive
[16:18] <crizzy> libpciaccess-dev : Depends: libpciaccess0 (= 0.12.902-1) but 0.13-1~precise1 is to be installed
[16:18] <crizzy> fuuu
[16:18] <crizzy> can't get xorg-dev installed ;(
[16:52] <crizzy> meh.. how i can set grub to boot windows by default? tired of this black hole of bugs
[16:53] <andrewaclt> Should you be running the beta if you can't use google?
[16:54] <crizzy> it has fixes for bugs that never got updated in stable...
[16:54] <crizzy> ... and unstable has bunch of bugs on its own
[16:54] <crizzy> windows is simply better and bug-free :/
[16:54] <bazhang> grub2 wiki?
[16:55] <bazhang> crizzy, you read it?
[16:55] <crizzy> and canonical has this 'tarded attitude nowadays to include bugfixes only in the next distro release and they won't release fixes for stable at all..
[16:55] <bazhang> crizzy, not the channel for that, please dont start
[16:56] <bazhang> crizzy, beta is *not* stable
[16:56] <crizzy> neither stable is stable.. :)
[16:56] <bazhang> file bugs to make it better
[16:56] <crizzy> i have filed
[16:56] <crizzy> tons of them
[16:56] <crizzy> nothing gets fixed
[16:56] <bazhang> ranting wont change it
[16:57] <brendand> crizzy - examples?
[16:57] <crizzy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/956159
[16:57] <crizzy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/954745
[16:57] <crizzy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/miro/+bug/954496
[16:57] <crizzy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxxf86dga/+bug/953960
[16:58] <crizzy> do you really want me to flood all the bugs here that i've reported?
[16:58] <andrewaclt> Those are all precise bugs
[16:58] <andrewaclt> that's kind of the point of running the beta
[16:58] <crizzy> exactly
[16:58] <crizzy> and this is channel for precise
[16:58] <crizzy> duh
[16:59] <andrewaclt> So I don't understand why you'r raging, when you're doing exactly as you should be?
[16:59] <andrewaclt> I think brendand was asking for bugs in stable that you've reported that have been ignored
[16:59] <brendand> crizzy, those bugs were reported 3 days ago
[16:59] <crizzy> i'm raging because 11.10 doesn't work a crap either. for example none of the unity BUG fixes that landed in 12.04 hasn't been (and won't be) released as updates for 11.10
[17:00] <brendand> crizzy, really?
[17:00] <crizzy> really
[17:00] <crizzy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/856138
[17:01] <crizzy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-2d/+bug/879488
[17:02] <brendand> crizzy, and those are all absent in precise?
[17:02] <crizzy> window decorators still fail to respond in precise, so it's not fixed anywhere
[17:02] <crizzy> i reported it during 11.10 beta
[17:03] <Bluefoxicy> can somebody pull up update-manager
[17:03] <Bluefoxicy> and hit 'check'
[17:03] <brendand> crizzy, so if they haven't fixed it how can it be landed in stable?
[17:04] <crizzy> brendand: well i can't find the most annoying one (unity breaks completely if you change FONT SIZE), which they fixed for 12.04 unity, but won't release as update for either 11.04 or 11.10
[17:04] <Bluefoxicy> When I do this, after it downloads, mine spends 1-2 seconds between updates and updates the list with a handful of packages
[17:04] <Bluefoxicy> so maybe 10-15 minutes later it finally finishes displaying all 119 updates
[17:06] <brendand> crizzy, where do you change font size?
[17:06] <crizzy> ha! :) there's one peanut problem too
[17:06] <crizzy> but you can change this in accessibility settings
[17:06] <crizzy> without gnome-tweak-tool
[17:06] <crizzy> universal access > text size
[17:19] <WilsonBradley>  thought 12.04 was / is very stable.. but just now after updating/reboot it hangs at Speech dispatcher
[17:19] <WilsonBradley> Not sure what log files to look at
[17:27] <trism> crizzy: about bug 956159 , can you check apt-cache policy libpciaccess0; I believe you have a ppa which is breaking the install
[17:28] <crizzy> just a minute, gotta boot first..
[17:31] <crizzy> trism: http://pastebin.com/KQpGcY1h
[17:31] <crizzy> trism: as far as i know i shouldn't have any ppa's installed.. only spotifys repository
[17:32] <crizzy> trism: although, i did try xorg-edgers before.. could be leftover from that
[17:33] <trism> crizzy: yeah, that is it, that is the version from xorg-edgers, may try: sudo apt-get install libpciaccess0=0.12.902-1; (being careful that it doesn't try to remove a bunch of packages), and if successful, then try installing xorg-dev
[17:35] <crizzy> trism: yeah, worked. my mistake
[17:35] <trism> happens
[17:41] <imark> anyone using cinnamon? or trying to use it, on 12.04?
[17:46] <ironhalik> imark: it wouldnt work for me
[17:53] <nishttal2> hi guys.. i am thinking about installing 12.04.. is it "fairly" stable or a lot of bugs?
[17:53] <nishttal2> i know its beta so pls spare me the hate
[17:58] <Pretto> who knows why empathy's installation needs to remove emesene?
[17:59] <Pretto> as you can se here http://paste.ubuntu.com/885159/
[18:06] <trism> Pretto: based on bug 954026 , looks like emesene needs a rebuild against farstream, you should file a bug about it
[18:06] <trism> Pretto: although may need more work, I haven't looked at the package yet
[18:08] <Pretto> ok trism, thank you
[18:11] <imark> ironhalik: it was okay a few days ago now its not working
[18:13] <durt> hey folks, got a problem with new clickpad support, using two finger tap (for right click) crashes compiz (compiz restarts). The menu button between alt and ctrl on the right works fine to bring up right click menus
[18:14] <mylenthes> Anyone there today?
[18:14] <bazhang> yes
[18:14] <mylenthes> can you help me with gnome shell
[18:16] <durt> To finish my question, Where to start trouble shooting?
[18:40] <mylenthes> anyone
[18:41] <mylenthes> can anyone help me with my gnome shell problems?
[18:42] <trism> mylenthes: you need to tell us what the problems are before anyone here can help
[18:43] <mylenthes> Gnome shell freezes after 5-10 seconds. After logging in
[18:43] <mylenthes> I know my card can handle it, I run unity 3d, kfe, and pretty much everything else perfectly fine
[18:44] <cheako> Why does grub change it's name to Debian in /etc/default/grub ?  I'll have to look at where this pkg came from.
[18:44] <mylenthes> cheako, that happened to me also, i found a fix online
[18:44] <mylenthes> lemme see if i can find it
[18:44] <cheako> nah, I could fix it.
[18:45] <mylenthes> k
[18:45] <cheako> It's just something the pkg maintainer forgot to change when importing from Debian.
[18:46] <cheako> ...though things like git should have caught that?????
[18:46] <mylenthes> i think gnome shell with extras, or whatever its called, is what caused it
[18:47] <cheako> mylenthes: That would be some bug.
[18:48] <mylenthes> What the pkg?
[18:48] <cheako> grub-pc
[18:48] <cheako> 1.99-17ubuntu1
[18:48] <cheako> !show grub-pc
[18:48] <mylenthes> !grub-pc
[18:49] <mylenthes> !chrom
[18:49] <mylenthes> !chrome
[18:49] <cheako> hmm.
[18:49] <cheako> I just don't know how to use the bot.
[18:49] <cheako> !help
[18:49] <mylenthes> lol
[18:49] <mylenthes> !patience
[18:50] <Fyodorovna> cheako, you have a booting problem?
[18:50] <trism> cheako: !info packagename
[18:51] <trism> cheako: also see /msg ubottu msgthebot when you are exploring
[18:51] <cheako> Fyodorovna: no, I was doing an upgrade and the modified debconf file flag hit me.  I looked at the changes and it was s/Ubuntu/Debian/ and I kinda freaked.
[18:52] <Fyodorovna> cheako, ah that will happen :)
[18:53] <cheako> trism: Looking for it to print grub-pc 1.99-17ubuntu1 (precise)
[18:54] <yofel> !info grub-pc
[18:54] <cheako> :)
[18:56] <cheako> Fyodorovna: It wouldn’t have happnd though, if git or any one of the version systems was used.  A vendor import would not undo a local modification like that.
[19:07] <Fyodorovna> I have a ubuntu host and guest (virtualbox) and have forgotten the guest setup for a shared file with the host. I have it setup in settings at this point.
[19:07] <Fyodorovna> host is precise
[19:08] <Fyodorovna> I mean the guest
[19:08] <mylenthes> so can u guys help with my gnome-shell problem
[19:09] <WilsonBradley> can anyone help me remove speech_dispatch from Ubuntu?
[19:10] <WilsonBradley> It has some dependancies running - speakup & speakup_soft
[19:10] <WilsonBradley> Its giving me error for speech_dispatch
[19:20] <cheako> any ecryptfs lovers?  I'm attempting to create a new mount and I keep getting error attempting to validate mount options.  I'd like to use an openssl.  Looking for a good example of usable/helpful documentation.
[19:27] <cheako> looks like as soon as I remove the openssl part it works.
[19:27] <cheako> ...or it locks up my box.
[19:29] <cheako> lots of disk IO.  I hope this is swap,.
[19:31] <cheako> it stopped.
[19:31] <cheako> ahh, oom killed.
[19:31] <bwlang> i'm testing 12.04 server... i get stuck during boot at init-bottom ... done  - ctrl-c does nothing, no virtual terminals, etc.  Any clues?
[19:36] <mylenthes> my gnomeshell freezes after logging in
[19:46] <FernandoMiguel> evening
[19:54] <WilsonBradley> How do I kill ?  Ubuntu:/boot/grub$ rmmod speakup_soft
[19:54] <WilsonBradley> ERROR: Module speakup_soft is in use
[19:58] <tsimpson> WilsonBradley: try with "modprobe -r" rather than "rmmod"
[20:00] <WilsonBradley> wilson# modprobe -r speakup_soft FATAL: Module speakup_soft is in use.
[20:30] <BlakJak> righto here's one... the crash report never renders a readable explanation... 'show details' only ever shows a stalled flower 'loading' animation...
[20:30] <BlakJak> hmm. disregard. Just worked for the first time. It was slow.
[20:56] <trippeh> Nooo, something is pulling in dbus ;)
[20:56] <trippeh> Huh, acpi-support
[21:05] <cheako> http://pastebin.com/2bHU0Nrn  Reset terminal didn't fix this.  mount.ecryptfs going wonky with it's questions it shouldn't have asked.
[21:07] <cheako> All I'm looking for is to setup ecryptfs using openssl keys.
[21:07] <cheako> ...or even just a password for testing.
[21:11] <cheako> what happened to farsight?
[21:25] <micahg> cheako: renamed to farstream?
[21:26] <micahg> or was that the other way
[21:26] <micahg> no, renamed to farstream is right
[21:31] <cheako> micahg: Yeah farsight == farsight1 and farstream == farsight2 # not not a typo.  The package was renamed, but the upstream project remains the same, AFAICT.  The is nothing called farstream, cept for the pkg.
[21:39] <htorque> can anyone confirm seeing a button "Set for all users" in 'System Settings → Color', when a color profile is selected?
[21:40] <Daekdroom> htorque, yes
[21:40] <htorque> Daekdroom: thanks
[21:51] <lucas-arg> hello, Im still trying to make my kworld ub405 usb tv stick to work with ubuntu, and so far i havent have any luck... thought i was gonna find support in ubuntu 12.04 which im running right now, ive checked linux tv and install drivers from git and no luck, any ideas where i can find some info about this issue?
[21:57] <mykrobinson> dangit. Empathy keeps growing as I type. How do i get it to stay t the window size i have set?
[22:10] <mykrobinson> any Empathy users in here?
[22:10] <Fudge> hi, is this known log. Please consider raising a bug report for this issue with the maintainer of that application
[22:11] <Fudge> Software catalog update was successful.
[22:11] <Fudge> oops the firs tline didnt paste, when upgrading software centre anyway
[22:11] <cheako> lucas-arg: Yeah, I feel you.
[22:12] <lucas-arg> cheako: u didnt find any solution? im frustrated i cant leave windows completely because of this...
[22:12] <cheako> Any great HDMI capture cards out there?
[22:13] <cheako> lucas-arg: It's like we are twins or something...  though I don't have any device like that currently.
[22:15] <cheako> lucas-arg: What type do you have?  OMNITUNE TUA 9001  or  Realtek RTL2832U DVB-T?  What does lsusb say?
[22:15] <lucas-arg> afatech something
[22:15] <lucas-arg> its neither of those
[22:17] <cheako> Rule of thumb with linux drivers, find out what microchip you have brand and product names are useless...  Un like in windows where two devices can have the same chip but the drivers will claim "That's not me."
[22:18] <cheako> Search for the vendor:product "ID" returned by lsusb.
[22:20] <lucas-arg> thats what lsusb says.. afatech numbers blablabla
[22:21] <Belial`> is anyone getting weird graphic glitches in the dash after the last update?
[22:21] <lucas-arg> me
[22:22] <Belial`> also, for some reason, it seems like every app using gtk3, when i mouse over to grab the scroll bar with the mouse, the scrollbar disappears.
[22:22] <Belial`> is that a known issue right now?
[22:26] <cheako> http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Afatech_AF9015    lucas-arg: What numbers?
[22:27] <lucas-arg> cheako: ill check
[22:28] <lucas-arg> cheako: Bus 001 Device 003: ID 1b80:a41c Afatech
[22:32] <cheako> lucas-arg: You might just need to add a41c to the supported devices list of one of the other 1b80 drivers.  Looks like there is a lot of support for you.
[22:34] <cheako> http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVB-T_USB_Devices  Search for 1b80 in this list and email some of those ppl.
[22:42] <CheckIn> Hello
[22:43] <cheako> hi.
[22:43] <CheckIn>  I've installed Ubuntu Server on a machine and it's inaccessible because of the Firewall rules. Does Ubuntu server come with a restrictive set of IPchains by  default?
[22:44] <topyli> afaik everything is open by default
[22:44] <CheckIn> hmm
[22:44] <CheckIn> where did these rules come from then?
[22:44] <topyli> also, ipchains died when linux 2.4 came out :)
[22:45] <CheckIn> topyli: Yes the IPtables are made up of ipchains :)
[22:45] <topyli> probalby not the firewall anyway
[22:45] <CheckIn> The sets of ipchains are what make up the iptables
[22:45] <topyli> i thought iptables just sets rules for netfilter
[22:45] <CheckIn> topyli: iptables -F fixes the inaccessibility
[22:46] <topyli> oh so in 2.4 we just added a layer of abstraction?
[22:46] <CheckIn> Right. Or management if you want to look at it like that
[22:46] <topyli> maybe ubuntu server does have some firewall rules then. i have no idea why it would, though
[22:46] <cheako> is TYPE=squashfs valid in /etc/fstab?  What about conflicts?
[22:46] <CheckIn> maybe the server part? :)
[22:47] <CheckIn> I'll checkin with #ubuntu-server to see
[22:47] <topyli> CheckIn: that's no reason
[22:47] <CheckIn> topyli: I'd think it is ;-/
[22:48] <topyli> why would there be firewall rules when nothing is even listening to any port?
[22:48] <topyli> and if you add something that listens to a port, you probably want that port open :)
[22:50] <cheako> CheckIn/topyli almost nothing should be listening on external interfaces by default.
[22:50] <cheako> I can think of only ssh having external access as a default.
[22:51] <cheako> Apache/smtp/ect should all be loopback only by default.
[22:51] <cheako> snmp
[22:51] <CheckIn> cheako: no ssh installed by default
[22:52] <Fyodorovna> any cpu-frq scalers in precise
[22:52] <Fyodorovna> *freq
[22:53] <cheako> Fyodorovna: None that work on my box.  Though there are.
[22:54] <Fyodorovna> same here the stock indicator-cpufreq crashes  cheako
[22:55] <cheako> CheckIn: What's the problem?
[22:56] <cheako> Fyodorovna: I don't get a crash, it's just that this Athlon chip has that freaky I'll run double the clock speed if you promis to only use two cores for a bit and when these threads finish using cpu cycles I'll go back to sane clock settings.
[22:57] <CheckIn> cheako: Just got a lot of Firewall rules on bppt
[22:57] <CheckIn> boot
[22:58] <cheako> ohh.
[23:02] <CheckIn> http://imgur.com/UPvUG
[23:57] <FernandoMiguel> nite


[00:46] <jwhisnant17> kaniini has invited you to join #litepub
[01:43] <Kronuz16> kaniini has invited you to join #litepub
[02:44] <vamiry> kaniini has invited you to join #litepub
[04:37] <Nick`20> watch the live defcon show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-NgAB1RcPo
[06:07] <armin27> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[08:00] <sins-> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[08:00] <sins-> "All told, Handshake aims to give $250 worth of its tokens to *each* user of the websites the company has partnerships with – GitHub, the P2P Foundation and *FREENODE*, a chat channel for peer-to-peer projects. As such, developers who have existing accounts on each could receive up to $750 worth of Handshake tokens."
[12:55] <alphor18> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[14:26] <danielhuman> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[14:51] <mdroid> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[15:07] <Pici2> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[16:48] <RaptorJesus26> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[16:48] <RaptorJesus26> "All told, Handshake aims to give $250 worth of its tokens to *each* user of the websites the company has partnerships with – GitHub, the P2P Foundation and *FREENODE*, a chat channel for peer-to-peer projects. As such, developers who have existing accounts on each could receive up to $750 worth of Handshake tokens."
[18:03] <Fieldy8> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[18:34] <Guest16770> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[19:11] <pmn> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[19:28] <rdococ7> After the acquisition by Private Internet Access, Freenode is now being used to push ICO scams https://www.coindesk.com/handshake-revealed-vcs-back-plan-to-give-away-100-million-in-crypto/
[19:28] <rdococ7> "All told, Handshake aims to give $250 worth of its tokens to *each* user of the websites the company has partnerships with – GitHub, the P2P Foundation and *FREENODE*, a chat channel for peer-to-peer projects. As such, developers who have existing accounts on each could receive up to $750 worth of Handshake tokens."


[00:04] <JontheEchidna> [18:46:51] <kbroulik> btw kudos to the kubuntu packaging team … it's great that the releases get backported so quickly nowadays <3
[00:04] <JontheEchidna> ^from #kubuntu
[00:25] <bulldog98> apachelogger: printermanager?
[00:29] <apachelogger> bulldog98: what about it?
[00:34] <bulldog98> apachelogger: was it the stuff you was announcing?
[00:34] <apachelogger> eh?
[00:34] <apachelogger> what did I announce?
[00:34] <apachelogger> and where and when?
[00:42] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: your boot video made me find a boog with the codec installer on 64-bit systems, thx
[00:46] <JontheEchidna> what happened was a multiarch package was being reported as providing the codec, causing the real native plugin to not be found :(
[01:32] <bulldog98> apachelogger: could you have a look at my mockup at git clone kde:scratch/kolberg/ubiquity-mockup
[01:43] <apachelogger> tomrrow
[01:49] <bulldog98> apachelogger: ping me with feedback than :)
[01:49]  * bulldog98 goes to bed -> good night to all
[07:44] <Riddell> apachelogger: lovely booting
[09:26] <debfx> ScottK: could you please push the quassel packaging branch
[09:44] <Riddell> nobody packaged kde-gtk-config yet?
[09:44] <Riddell> debfx: what do you need done?
[09:44] <Riddell> upload it?
[09:51] <Sput> hmpf, kmail has become really unstable on kubuntu after the recent KDE upgrade, anyone else experiencing that problem?
[09:51] <Sput> the backtraces point to soprano...
[09:51] <debfx> I need an up to date branch
[09:53] <Riddell> debfx: oh synced with the archive
[09:53] <Riddell> let me look
[09:54] <debfx> well there is not much you can do about that
[09:55] <Riddell> debfx: done
[09:56] <Riddell> debfx: it seems to be under ~ubuntu-dev which seems to host a few projects but not many, it would be nicer to just use the launchpad packaging branches if you can live with the mix of upstream and packaging in a bzr branch
[09:57] <Riddell> debfx: but don't block if you have issues like that, just do the sync to bzr archive on your local checkout and have it merged in after you add your changes
[09:58] <debfx> I try to avoid the UDD branches when possible
[09:59] <Riddell> debfx: does anyone maintain debfx who isn't kubuntu?
[10:00] <debfx> Riddell: it's not urgent so didn't want to diverge the branch in case he just forgot to push it
[10:01] <debfx> I am being maintained by kubuntu? :O
[10:01] <Tm_T> yes, yes you are, didn't you get the memo?
[10:02] <Riddell> umm
[10:02] <Riddell> debfx: does anyone maintain quassel who isn't kubuntu?
[10:03] <debfx> no
[10:05] <Riddell> debfx: so maybe we should just move to ~kubuntu-packaging ?
[10:07] <debfx> Riddell: what's wrong with the current branch? I see no reason to change it
[10:07] <Riddell> debfx: you can't push to it?
[10:07] <Riddell> Sput: no sorry I haven't tested that, I'll take a look in a bit
[10:07] <debfx> I can push it
[10:08] <Riddell> debfx: oh so why did you need me to sync?
[10:08] <Riddell> but kontact was the main complaint I heard at cebit and that's no surprise
[10:10] <Riddell> debfx: or were you asking for something else entirely?
[10:10] <debfx> I didn't, I asked ScottK to push the branch in case he forgot to
[10:11] <debfx> (since he uploaded the last version)
[10:12] <debfx> ScottK: do you care about quassel being backportable to pre-precise releases?
[10:13] <Riddell> agateau: where is indicateqt support in kopete?  I can't find the code
[12:33] <ScottK> debfx: Not particularly.  At least I won't after precise is released.
[12:33] <ScottK> debfx: Why?
[12:35] <ScottK> debfx: I don't have a local copy of the branch.  If I forgot it, I guess I forgot it completely.
[12:35] <ScottK> Riddell: One's work can be overwritten automatically in the UDD branches which seems like a very good reason to me to stay away from them (I have others, but I think that's sufficient).
[13:12] <ScottK> libdbusmenu-qt | 0.9.0-2ubuntu1 |       precise | source
[13:13] <ScottK> libdbusmenu-qt | 0.9.0-1 | sid     | source
[13:13] <ScottK> How is this possible (nothing in experimental)
[13:17] <debfx> ScottK: "Merge from Debian git"
[13:17] <Riddell> ScottK: it'll be moved to the side not overwritten but sure there's plenty problems with them
[13:19] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[13:37] <shadeslayer> ScottK: yes, I've updated the symbols and the package is in my PPA
[13:37] <shadeslayer> sec
[13:38] <shadeslayer> ScottK: https://launchpad.net/~rohangarg/+archive/experimental/+files/qtwebkit-source_2.2.1-1ubuntu3%7Eppa1.dsc
[13:38] <ScottK> shadeslayer: OK.  How about I test build that on the arm box and you look at bug 947785 for digikam and then I'll test that one again after?
[13:38] <shadeslayer> as for digikam, I've been trying to get qemubuilder to work, but it just refuses to work
[13:39] <shadeslayer> ok
[13:39] <shadeslayer> ( I left qemubuilder to make the image on my server for an entire day, nothing happened )
[13:40] <ScottK> It looks like some kind of a linking error somewhere.
[13:42] <shadeslayer> "The problem happens if opencv is built with libdc1394 support"
[13:43] <ScottK> Note that there's more than one libusb version listed as a dependency.
[13:43] <shadeslayer> yeah
[13:43] <ScottK> Dunno if that's related or not.
[13:43] <ScottK> It doesn't seem good.
[13:43] <shadeslayer> I'm going through the KDE Bug report
[13:43] <ScottK> Keep in mind the current issue is "similar" to that one, not necessarily the same.
[13:44] <Riddell> what shall I put in the releaes team meeting report this week?
[13:44] <ScottK> 4.8.1 uploaded
[13:45] <ScottK> More progress on Kubuntu Active wonderfullness
[13:45] <Riddell> oh aye, anyone tested that?
[13:45] <ScottK> Work in progress on qtwebkit-source FTBFS on arm*.
[13:45] <ScottK> rbelem did.
[13:46] <Riddell> what did he find?
[13:46] <shadeslayer> well, some kdegames might not have sound in this release, but will probably get sound once we get openal into Main
[13:46] <Riddell> shadeslayer: is there an openal MIR?
[13:46] <shadeslayer> Should be soonish, mterry approved everything
[13:46] <shadeslayer> Riddell: yes
[13:46] <Riddell> oh nice
[13:46] <ScottK> Then Riddell can promote it and solve that.
[13:46] <Riddell> yeah what's the bug number?
[13:47] <shadeslayer> Riddell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openal-soft/+bug/586324 < Best to talk to mterry once before promotion :0
[13:47] <shadeslayer> s/0/)
[13:48] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what to talk to mterry about?  he's approved it from reading the report
[13:48] <ScottK> shadeslayer: chroot updated and qtwebkit-source build kicked off.
[13:50] <Riddell> shadeslayer: openal-soft promoted to main
[13:50] <Riddell> will you upload a fixed kdegames?
[13:50] <shadeslayer> whee
[13:50] <shadeslayer> hmm, sure, give me a sec
[13:58] <shadeslayer> Riddell: pushed to bzr branch
[14:00] <Riddell> shadeslayer: need me to upload?
[14:00] <shadeslayer> yep
[14:03] <Riddell> shadeslayer: does it install any new files?
[14:03] <shadeslayer> uh ...
[14:03] <Riddell> shadeslayer: also missing a bug number
[14:03] <shadeslayer> it shouldn't really
[14:04] <shadeslayer> bug number?
[14:04] <Riddell> 13:47 < shadeslayer> Riddell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openal-soft/+bug/586324
[14:04] <shadeslayer> ah
[14:04] <shadeslayer> nope
[14:04] <shadeslayer> bug 941745
[14:04] <Riddell> shadeslayer: or that
[14:05] <Riddell> shadeslayer: when you say "it shouldn't really" do you mean "no I've checked" or do you mean "not sure, I'm guessing not"
[14:05] <shadeslayer> latter
[14:05] <shadeslayer> I'll test build
[14:05] <Riddell> need an ec2?
[14:06] <shadeslayer> nah, will do it on yofel's thinkpad :)
[14:06]  * shadeslayer is a bit slow today, everything hurts
[14:08] <shadeslayer> hmm
[14:08] <rbelem> Riddell, it boots straight to lightdm
[14:08] <shadeslayer> we have python-kde4 in main, and yet we don't build kdegames with that
[14:08] <rbelem> Riddell, but there isnt user to login
[14:08] <rbelem> :-(
[14:09] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Why not?
[14:09] <shadeslayer> ScottK: no idea, looking into it
[14:10] <Riddell> ok so we need need to work out the one line bash script to change lightdm to do autologin
[14:10] <Riddell> rbelem: can you look what that is?
[14:10] <ScottK> Riddell: Why not just use nodm if you always want autologin?
[14:10] <Riddell> sed s,AutoLogin=False,AutoLogin=True, /etc/kde4/kdm/kdmrc is something like what we have currently
[14:10] <Riddell> ScottK: because I know less about nodm then I do about lightdm
[14:11] <ScottK> It seemed to work OK for -mobile.
[14:11] <rbelem> Riddell, yup :-)
[14:12] <rbelem> ScottK, i think we had some throuble to turn off
[14:12] <ScottK> OK.
[14:12] <rbelem> when using nodm
[14:18] <shadeslayer> argh
[14:19] <shadeslayer> python-support and python-qt-dev are in universe
[14:19] <shadeslayer> that's why
[14:19] <shadeslayer> which is weird
[14:19] <shadeslayer> since python-qt4 is in main
[14:19] <ScottK> shadeslayer: If something uses python-support, let's migrate it to dh_python2.
[14:20] <shadeslayer> ScottK: oh, then either python-qt4 or python-kde uses python-support
[14:20] <ScottK> shadeslayer: python-qt-dev is a python-qt3 package.
[14:20] <shadeslayer> because kdegames uses dh_python2
[14:20] <shadeslayer> oh
[14:20] <ScottK> shadeslayer: No.  Neither do.
[14:21] <ScottK> python-qt4-dev is probably what you were thinking of.
[14:23] <Riddell> rbelem: you can login to the image with user "kubuntu-active", it currently has plasma-desktop on the image
[14:25] <Riddell> ScottK: someone is looking at qtwebkit on arm?
[14:26] <ScottK> Riddell: Yes.  I'm test building shadeslayer's fix right now.
[14:26] <Riddell> ScottK: what's his fix?
[14:26] <ScottK> Updated symbols.
[14:26] <Riddell> is shadeslayer a secret elite arm hacker?
[14:26] <shadeslayer> nope, just new symbols  ...
[14:27] <Riddell> shadeslayer: so it all compiles now except the symbols file is wrong?
[14:27] <shadeslayer> also, kdegames depends on python-twisted-core but CMake tells me it can't find it
[14:27] <shadeslayer> Riddell: thats what the build log told me
[14:27] <Riddell> great
[14:27] <shadeslayer> btw, that's for qtwebkit
[14:28] <Riddell> yes
[14:28] <Riddell> you need to learn to read cmake to get to the bottom of issues like "depends on python-twisted-core but CMake tells me it can't find it"
[14:30] <ScottK> It's likely that we install it somewhere other than where it expects to find it.
[14:32] <shadeslayer> ah, well, that warning is misleading
[14:32] <shadeslayer> it depends on it as in, Depends and not Build Depends
[14:32] <ScottK> Right.  That's another one.
[14:32] <ScottK> KDE conflates those two things sometimes.
[14:33] <shadeslayer> :(
[14:33] <Riddell> rbelem: kubuntu-active needs  plasma-active-default-settings and kubuntu-active-default-settings
[14:33] <Riddell> adding to seeds
[14:33] <ScottK> This is because everyone builds KDE from source on the same machine they'll run it on so build time warnings about runtime issues are a great idea.
[14:51] <Riddell> kde-telepathy reply http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-telepathy/2012-March/005690.html
[14:58] <ScottK> Release date seems pretty late.
[14:58] <ScottK> Other than that I think it's ~OK if we get the MI integration and the desktop file name change.
[15:01] <shadeslayer> Riddell: uh, everything looks good, except that I see that granatier is disabled in debian/control, nothing in the changelog about that
[15:02] <Riddell> shadeslayer: so no new files?
[15:02] <shadeslayer> Riddell: nope
[15:02] <Riddell> groovy
[15:03] <shadeslayer> I'll look into digikam after dinner
[15:03] <shadeslayer> bbl
[15:03] <Riddell> rbelem: kubuntu-active-meta uploaded, remind me to spin new images in an hour or so
[15:04] <Riddell> shadeslayer: kdegames uploaded
[15:16] <shadeslayer> \o/
[15:57] <rbelem> Riddell, kubuntu-active user? no password?
[15:57] <Riddell> rbelem: right
[15:58] <rbelem> Riddell, we have to define plasma-active as the default session for lightdm
[15:58] <Riddell> rbelem: and auto login, just a config file change presumably
[15:59] <rbelem> Riddell, nice... i will do that in the next hours. i'm leaving for lunch now
[16:19] <debfx> could one of you core-devs have a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~debfx/ubuntu/precise/language-selector/kubuntu/+merge/92967 ? otherwise it will never get merged
[16:35] <ScottK> Unless you apply for core-dev.
[17:48] <nixternal> anyone on precise update to today's network-mangler release?
[17:58] <nixternal> I HATE NETWORK MANAGER!
[18:09] <shadeslayer> ScottK: how goes QtWebkit
[18:15] <ScottK> May have killed the box.  ssh is either very slow or not responding.
[18:15] <shadeslayer> ouch
[18:15] <shadeslayer> poor boxen
[18:15] <ScottK> I'll go plug in a keyboard/monitor and see what's up in a bit if it doesn't recover.
[18:20] <bulldog98> apachelogger: do you know how I can get qtcreator to show me all the qmlplugins of kde?
[18:20] <bulldog98> eg org.kde.qtextracomponents?
[18:22] <shadeslayer> uh, you can't right now I think
[18:22] <shadeslayer> you need to manually write stuff last time I checked, but that was like 4-5 months ago
[18:24] <bulldog98> shadeslayer: hm
[18:25] <shadeslayer> bulldog98: maybe #plasma can help you out?
[18:25] <shadeslayer> They're bound to be proficient with that stuff
[18:36] <Peace-> hola
[18:45] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Still building.  ssh eventually recovered.
[18:45] <shadeslayer> \o/
[18:48] <shadeslayer> ScottK: I don't suppose you know a sekrit way of making pbuilder work with qemu right?
[20:18] <sheytan> apachelogger: pongi
[20:53] <j2_> Anyone is in charge of Kmix here?
[20:58] <shadeslayer> j2_: if it's a packaging issue, feel free to state the issue, if it's a bug in the application, please file a bug on bugs.kde.org
[20:59] <shadeslayer> Night guys
[20:59] <j2_> shadeslayer: Well I can't
[20:59] <j2_> shadeslayer: Good night
[21:00] <j2_> someone in #kubuntu had updated KDE 4.8 and Kmix randomly crashes, The bug report tool also crashes and when they submit the bug on bugs.kde.org that crashes so they are a little put off
[21:01] <j2_> Just thought that whoever was the maintainer of kmix might know if there was a known bug
[21:14] <sheytan> someone has a ppa with telepathy 0.3?
[21:14] <sheytan> for 10.11
[21:15] <sheytan> 11.1
[21:15] <sheytan> wait
[21:15] <sheytan> what version do we have now?
[21:15] <sheytan> 11.10 yeah :D
[21:17] <j2_> 12.26
[21:21] <sheytan> apachelogger: http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8784/plytests2.jpg
[21:25] <ScottK> shadeslayer: I don't know a thing about qemu.  Still building, BTW.
[21:25] <bulldog98> sheytan: looks nice
[21:26] <ScottK> j2_: The issue with Dr. Konqi is known.  They should report a bug manually on bugs.kde.org.
[21:26] <sheytan> bulldog98: thank you :)
[21:26] <j2_> ScottK: bugs.kde.org crashes when they do so
[21:26] <ScottK> j2_: Use a web browser and copy/paste the back trace.
[21:28] <j2_> ScottK: Hmm You mean pastebin it?
[21:29] <j2_> When they submit the bug bugzilla rturns them to a unknown error page
[21:29] <ScottK> Even via a web browser?
[21:30] <j2_> As I understand it
[21:31] <ScottK> Worth bringing up with KDE folks then, but I don't know the best channel.
[21:31] <ScottK> I think there's a #kde-sysadmin or similar.
[21:31] <j2_> I do :)
[21:31] <ScottK> Excellent.
[21:31] <j2_> ScottK: Anything known about Kmix crashing? since if that stops then the DrKonqui thing is moot
[21:32] <j2_> for the time being
[21:32] <ScottK> First I heard of it.
[21:33] <j2_> Me too and it seems to happen 1/2 dozen times a day
[21:42] <bulldog98> sheytan: could you have a look at the git repro kde:scratch/kolberg/ubiquity-mockup ? thanks
[21:43] <sheytan> bulldog98: link via web please?
[21:44] <bulldog98> sheytan: http://quickgit.kde.org/index.php?p=scratch%2Fkolberg%2Fubiquity-mockup.git&a=tree&hb=66819b0a003e65efc0a97aa08d9e488dbdb8db8e
[21:46] <sheytan> bulldog98: can i run it somehow to see how it works together? Or is there a demo?
[21:46] <bulldog98> qmlviewer -I /usr/lib/kde4/imports Ubiquity-mockup.qml
[21:46] <bulldog98> If you have all the files in the current dir
[21:53] <bulldog98> sheytan: video with out the popups: http://people.ubuntu.com/~bulldog98/ubiquity/ubiquity-mockup.avi
[21:56] <sheytan> bulldog98: not bad. Will take a look at it tomorrow :)
[21:56] <bulldog98> sheytan: feedback is good
[22:51] <bulldog98> good night
[22:56] <j2_> night


[15:57] <astraljava> Informal meeting in about an hour.
[16:06] <ScottL> hehe, you beat me astraljava :)
[16:07] <astraljava> I'm so sorry, are you badly hurt?
[16:07] <ScottL> LOL
[16:08] <ScottL> jussi01, is there any way to get<EMAIL_ADDRESS>added to the mailing list without asking colin to do it
[16:08] <ScottL> asking colin to confirm his new email for the build errors
[16:08] <ScottL> they changed to a new build server
[16:09] <astraljava> What benefits will that give us?
[16:10] <ScottL> so i don't have to keep approving his messages
[16:21] <astraljava> I meant the new server.
[16:24] <ScottL> faster build times for the images
[16:24] <astraljava> Good, good.
[16:24] <ScottL> he's quite proud of the improvement i believe :)
[16:25] <astraljava> Good to hear. Should compliment him for his efforts.
[16:44] <craigs63> is the meeting on this channel, in 15 min or so?
[16:52] <ScottL> aye craigs63
[16:52] <craigs63> thx
[16:55] <ScottL> i believe this is the relevant page for the meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[16:58] <ScottL> stochastic, holstein , ailo: ping for meeting
[17:01]  * ScottL is worried that not many people will show up for meeting despite assertions of attendance
[17:01] <astraljava> Looks a bit that way.
[17:02] <JonReagan> did we have others say they were going to be here?
[17:02] <astraljava> But, let's give it a bit of time, we're informal, anyway, so no strict schedule.
[17:03] <JonReagan> sounds good
[17:05] <ScottL> JonReagan, do you have particularly strong opinions about the task derived work flows?
[17:05]  * ScottL is sorry to put you on the spot ;)
[17:05] <ScottL> just trying to feel people's opinions out
[17:06] <JonReagan> haha well I wouldn't say that I have particularly strong opinions
[17:06] <ScottL> my general feeling is that we should replicate current functionality with a few extremely selective additions
[17:07] <ScottL> JonReagan, okay, any particular non-strong opinions ;)
[17:07] <ScottL> or how about this...
[17:07] <ScottL> JonReagan, what would you like included?
[17:07] <JonReagan> I will say that I like the example workflows up on the wiki, particularly the focus on photography, which is one I would definitely like to see included
[17:08] <JonReagan> but that could just be because I like photography  ;)
[17:09] <craigs63> One thing I see on XFCE I don't like, the menus no longer have a "tooltip" (whatever it's called) - i.e. a little box that tells what each program does ("CD player", "bitmap paint", etc).
[17:09] <falktx> meeting right now?
[17:09] <JonReagan> I feel that if we are a multimedia-focused distro, then the major art forms (photography, music, video) should have their own workflows
[17:10] <ScottL> falktx, aye!
[17:10] <falktx> there is a chance Gnome will drop fallback mode
[17:10] <ScottL> JonReagan, i agree with the photography inclusion, shnatsel has given thought to this, and i would like this to be one of the ones we include this cycle
[17:10] <JonReagan> awesome!
[17:11] <ScottL> falktx, hmmm, then that makes our decision to move to xfce more fortuitous
[17:11] <ScottL> craigs63, that is interesting, i would like us to investigate this
[17:11] <falktx> the main "issue" was that Gnome3 only worked in hw-accererated mode, but now it has gallium support or whatever, so 3.2 won't need 3d drivers anymore
[17:11] <falktx> let me search it
[17:11] <falktx> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAxMjI
[17:12] <ScottL> falktx, did you see craigs63 's comment about missing "tooltip" for menu items?
[17:12] <ScottL> falktx, craigs63> One thing I see on XFCE I don't like, the menus no longer have a "tooltip" (whatever it's called) - i.e. a little box that tells what each program does ("CD player", "bitmap paint", etc).
[17:12] <ScottL> do you have any insight on this?
[17:12] <ScottL> if not that is okay, we can research it later
[17:12] <JonReagan> is a move to XFCE under consideration for the next release?
[17:13] <ScottL> JonReagan, we have already started the transition
[17:13] <JonReagan> ah, cool
[17:13] <ScottL> last release is using xfce but we didn't complete the theming, menu, settings, etc
[17:13] <ScottL> it looked kinda ugly but did function
[17:14] <falktx> ScottL: no idea about tooltips
[17:14] <falktx> btw, red hat dev say about gnome3:
[17:14] <ScottL> falktx, okay, i'll add that to my list for things to work on
[17:14] <falktx> "But based on what they've said in the past, I expect that once most hardware that previously needed the fallback mode is covered, fallback mode will die."
[17:14] <falktx> ScottL: is it really needed?
[17:15] <ScottL> falktx, craigs63 was asking about it, so i imagine if finds it helpful others will too
[17:15] <falktx> ScottL: craigs63: what do you think of this -> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/screenshots/klaudia.png ?
[17:15] <len> Only gort two minutes... just a quick idea maybe not for this cycle. Has anyone thought of a musicpad workflow for net/notebooks?
[17:16] <JonReagan> musicpad?
[17:16] <ScottL> len, what is musicpad?
[17:16] <ScottL> scoring?
[17:16] <craigs63> faltx: looks nice
[17:16] <stochastic> hey all sorry I'm late
[17:16] <ScottL> or like lilypad where you write the notes on a staff for midi?
[17:16] <len> For doing music "scribbling" on the road. Something that con rec ord.. maybe a notation thing.. just thought of it not really thpougght out.
[17:16] <ScottL> falktx, you might explain to craigs63 what klaudia can do
[17:17] <falktx> craigs63: basically it just lists the software available and it's features
[17:17] <craigs63> klaudia needs a tooltip!
[17:17] <falktx> craigs63: more complete than generic menus
[17:17] <ScottL> len, definitely think though it, especially think through what the purpose is (what the use will accomplish) then work downwards through work flow and tool chain
[17:17] <ScottL> len, but i would certainly like to hear more about it
[17:18] <ScottL> stochastic, hi, we haven't really started yet, just gabbering
[17:18] <stochastic> gotcha
[17:18] <len> Anyway, I'll try fresh it out in the list, but I have to play in an hour.
[17:18]  * stochastic reads backscroll a bit anyway
[17:18] <falktx> ScottL: this is one app that is ready, and has no special dependencies. maybe later we can create a package for it?
[17:18] <craigs63> The other day I was just trying to play a CD on my laptop, I thought it was annoying to have to google the names that are listed on my 'multimedia' menu...
[17:19] <ScottL> stochastic, i think the only real comment for work flows was support for the 'photography' work flow (especially since shnatsel, who did the workflow, also got darkroom into debian and then ubuntu)
[17:19] <ScottL> falktx, that is certainly a possibility :)
[17:20] <JonReagan> craigs63: that would be annoying!
[17:20] <ScottL> craigs63, we will be tightening up the menu this cycle (along with other xfce things) and we will look into the tooltips
[17:21] <len> gotta run bye...
[17:22] <stochastic> ScottL, who all is here to talk workflows?
[17:22] <JonReagan> Well, I hate to say this, but I gotta run too, time to meet some family for lunch.
[17:22] <ScottL> i would say that astraljava , craigs63 , falktx , me, JonReagan
[17:23] <ScottL> oh well, scratch JonReagan from that list ;)
[17:23] <ScottL> bye JonReagan
[17:23] <stochastic> JonReagan, what's your take on workflows before you go?
[17:23] <stochastic> any quick ideas or concepts?
[17:24] <JonReagan> I'm looking forward to having them. ;)  Definitely in support of the photography workowkkdkflow would you mind sending me an email after the meeting is over and just let me know what I can do?   I'll check the meeting logs, but I'm definitely up for helping develop a toolchain for a workflow
[17:24] <JonReagan> wow, sorry, last message got a little garbled... using empathy and it froze
[17:24] <stochastic> okay sounds good
[17:25] <ScottL> JonReagan, you should probably review the work flows for your interest
[17:25] <ScottL> if you see a different way to do something, add that to the wiki page
[17:25] <astraljava> JonReagan: Meeting won't be specially logged, you need to comb the channel logs over.
[17:25] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[17:25] <falktx> ScottL: I have 2 workflows of my own that are not possible because of missing packages
[17:26] <falktx> openoctave and linuxsampler are missing from debian
[17:26] <ScottL> falktx, can you work towards getting them into debian
[17:26] <falktx> so as non-daw and non-mixer
[17:26] <JonReagan> thanks Scott, I'll take a look through there and see if I find something.  I guess before I start which workflows are those 2? ;)  Don't want to waste time on something we know is already impossible
[17:26] <ScottL> that's what shnatsel did for the photogrphay work flow
[17:26] <ScottL> oh, linuxsampler is probably a no go
[17:26] <falktx> ScottL: not sure, my debian skills are not the best, and I want to move to arch soon
[17:27] <falktx> ScottL: why not linuxsampler??
[17:27] <ScottL> quadrispro can help too falktx , get it packaged and then submit to the debian multimedia team mailing list
[17:27] <stochastic> okay so let's set some targets for this discussion, i.e. we want roughly four workflows from each of the major categories?
[17:27] <ScottL> isn't linuxsampler the one with the restrictive license (i.e. can't make money)
[17:28] <ScottL> stochastic, what do you consider the major categories?
[17:28] <ScottL> audio, video, graphics?
[17:28] <stochastic> yup
[17:28] <ScottL> okay :)
[17:28] <JonReagan> +1 for what stochastic said.  Alright everyone, have a good meeting!
[17:29] <stochastic> is four a solid target number?
[17:29] <falktx> ScottL: it has a restriction about putting linuxsampler on hardware boxes, nothing else
[17:29] <stochastic> we can go over on some, under on others
[17:29] <ScottL> it is at least a good base number
[17:29] <ScottL> start with audio then?
[17:30] <stochastic> sure
[17:30] <stochastic> before we begin
[17:31] <stochastic> I do want to mention that some of the workflow design is to pair down the number of apps in our packages
[17:31] <astraljava> What does pairing down mean?
[17:31] <stochastic> and there are general tools in the packages that no workflow mentions
[17:31] <stochastic> reduce
[17:31] <astraljava> Ok.
[17:32] <craigs63> pare   :-)
[17:32] <stochastic> I'd hate to see those general tools disappear because
[17:32] <stochastic> oops, spelling gaff
[17:32] <ScottL> can you list some of those general tools?
[17:34] <falktx> audacity!
[17:34] <stochastic> ones that come to mind are gcolor (I think is the name, a color picker for the screen), ladish might fall into that category
[17:34] <falktx> most generic audio tool ever
[17:35] <stochastic> anyway, maybe I'm just too worried about neat helper tools being taken away from new users
[17:35] <stochastic> let's start paring down to the golden workflows
[17:35] <falktx> mastering should be first, right?
[17:35] <ScottL> stochastic, we can always confer later and reevaluate if we feel something is missing
[17:36] <falktx> Ardour and LV2 plugins
[17:36] <stochastic> sounds good
[17:36] <ScottL> falktx, have you looked through the workflow wiki page?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[17:37] <ScottL> stochastic, i'd say that we should focus on at least two work flows for audio:  recoding live instruments, and recording synths, sequencers,midi
[17:37] <falktx> oops, sorry I will look again
[17:37] <ScottL> i shouldn't say "focus on"
[17:37] <craigs63> Is # 7. Miscellaneous:  meant to cover things like "send an email", "browse the web", "play a CD", etc. ?
[17:37] <ScottL> i really should say that i would suggest those two at least
[17:37] <stochastic> ScottL, by synths, seqencers, midi are you considering them all to be software based, not hardware?
[17:38] <ScottL> stochastic, i suppose it doesn't have too, but i'm not a midi guy really, kinda out of my expertise
[17:38] <stochastic> craigs63, I'm pretty sure the Desktop tools will remain
[17:38] <falktx> hm, Ardour is used pretty much in all workflows, but not in recording?
[17:38] <ScottL> stochastic,  will it involved additional packages to support hardware as well?
[17:38] <craigs63> stochastic, yes I assume they will stay on the disc, but will the workflow doc explain what they do?
[17:39] <ScottL> falktx, recording what?  it is used to in recording live instruments and midi stuff
[17:39] <stochastic> craigs63, ahh, good point
[17:39] <ScottL> should it?
[17:39] <ScottL> do we need a work flow for email?
[17:39] <falktx> ScottL: 'Simple recording of concert, conversation etc'
[17:39] <stochastic> at least link to the generic ubuntu docs on that stuff
[17:39] <craigs63> Yeah, I don't know if this web page assumes we all know Ubuntu programs
[17:39] <ScottL> falktx, ah, i didn't put that in there, someone else did to support audacity (i think)
[17:40] <falktx> but I guess Ardour is a bit too complicated for a simple task like this
[17:40] <astraljava> I think this is purely multimedia related, no?
[17:40] <astraljava> We don't have to duplicate what desktop distro already does.
[17:40] <ScottL> astraljava, i had intended the work flows to focus on multimedia tasks, yes
[17:41] <ScottL> generally the mainstream desktop uses don't really need a "work flow" because it's a single app
[17:41] <astraljava> True enough.
[17:41] <ScottL> does anyone have any suggestions for "work flows" for audio?
[17:41] <ScottL> i've suggested 'recording live instruments' and 'recording midi, synths'
[17:41] <stochastic> so under audio on the workflows page we have five major sections
[17:42] <stochastic> let's look at each one really briefly and talk
[17:42] <ScottL> and by suggestions i mean "work flows that we should include for the next release"
[17:42] <ScottL> stochastic, that sounds good, i have limited time and i would like this meeting to make more progress
[17:43]  * ScottL realizes that sounds mean and it wasn't intended directly at stochastic
[17:43] <stochastic> ScottL, I think audio is the big one so lets power through that
[17:43] <ScottL> aye
[17:44] <stochastic> in the recording section I see a great deal of overlap in the workflows
[17:44] <ScottL> keep in mind these work flows are not perfect and we are not beholded to them
[17:44] <stochastic> in general I think those who record audio would want plugins to tweak it
[17:44] <ScottL> definitely
[17:44] <stochastic> and mastering of that audio in the end would be a natural progression
[17:45] <ScottL> i think plugins shouldn't be a choice anymore, if you select any audio work flows they should be included with them
[17:45] <astraljava> +1
[17:45] <ScottL> stochastic, so probably some of these work flows can actually be combined (i.e. record audio -> mix and master = record, mix, master audio)
[17:45] <falktx> plugins don't take too much space and are always useful
[17:46] <ScottL> agreed falktx
[17:46] <falktx> I think we should put there as many plug as possible
[17:46] <stochastic> then I'm in support of all the subsections of the "Recording and Editing" being combined into one package, maybe documentation can be segmented
[17:46] <falktx> (those that work well)
[17:46] <stochastic> the only oddity is Hydrogen appearing in the recording and editing section
[17:46] <ScottL> stochastic, do you want to segregate the midi stuff from the recording real instuments?
[17:46] <stochastic> yes, to start
[17:47] <ScottL> +1
[17:47] <ScottL> can you explain the hydrogen oddity a little, stochastic ?
[17:47] <stochastic> well it's a program that generates audio
[17:47] <stochastic> everything else in there is intended to adjust an audio signal
[17:47] <ScottL> very true
[17:48] <ScottL> but it does support the 'bedroom' musician who doesn't have drums but practically everything else
[17:48] <ScottL> but i'm not stuck on it being there
[17:48] <stochastic> yes, some users want a drum track to back their acoustic accordion playing, but they might also want a bass track
[17:48] <ScottL> true
[17:48] <ScottL> hmmmm
[17:49] <stochastic> where's the line to be drawn between the recording and the synthesis
[17:49] <ScottL> and ardour will eventually have midi capability
[17:49] <ScottL> stochastic, i was doing that on the basis of the capabilities of the person making the music
[17:49] <falktx> ScottL: don't count on ardour3 being released so soon
[17:49] <ScottL> i think they typically play instruments (guitars, bass, maybe some keyboards) or they don't play anything
[17:50] <falktx> oh, I just remembered something
[17:50] <ScottL> falktx, i know, but it will at some point
[17:50] <falktx> http://www.linuxdsp.co.uk/download/beta/linuxdsp_ardour/index.html
[17:50] <falktx> ^Ardour2 "fork" with a bit more features
[17:50] <falktx> could be a plus for US
[17:50] <ScottL> but let's not get hung up on hydrogen, we can eliminate it from the 'record live' and evaluate it later if need be
[17:51] <stochastic> sounds good
[17:51] <ScottL> okay, so...
[17:51] <stochastic> p.s. Live should be a word we use to describe performing live, let's call it record audio
[17:51] <ScottL> #1 combine recording edit for recording audio
[17:52] <ScottL> #2 separate work flow for synths, sequencers, midi
[17:52] <ScottL> #3 remove hydrogen drums from #1
[17:52] <stochastic> Hydrogen appears in #2 anyway
[17:53] <ScottL> do we want to support any other audio work flows for this cycle?
[17:53] <ScottL> DJ stuff?
[17:53] <ScottL> scoring/composing?
[17:53] <astraljava> dholbach could like that.
[17:53] <stochastic> I would like too
[17:54] <astraljava> And I would like the latter.
[17:54] <falktx> does US currently has any app for playing midi files?
[17:54] <ScottL> are the work flows adequate for your interests?
[17:54] <stochastic> I think it's of minimal effort while we're designing these workflows to make them the way users have come to expect
[17:54] <ScottL> astraljava, stochastic^^^
[17:55] <ScottL> falktx, yes, it was seq24 but is now qtractor
[17:55] <stochastic> I'd like to see a workflow that incorporates "Professional Playback"  - i.e. DJing, podcasting, etc...
[17:55] <ScottL> as seq24 was geared more to live playing
[17:55] <falktx> ScottL: ah, qtractor is _not_ a  midi player
[17:55] <astraljava> ScottL: The scoring/notation does look good, I'm no DJ so I have no say on that.
[17:55] <stochastic> I'd also like to see a 'Notation' workflow
[17:56] <craigs63> in 2.3 or broken out separate?
[17:56] <ScottL> astraljava, stochastic : for those work flows you desire, can you improve what he have on the wiki?
[17:56] <ScottL> i don't think they will get done otherwise
[17:56] <stochastic> also a "live performance" workflow would be nice
[17:57] <stochastic> but not essential
[17:57] <stochastic> craigs63, what do you mean?
[17:57] <ScottL> i would also like to mention two things:
[17:57] <ScottL> #1 i don't think we should worry about all the things we "could" have right now, minimal is probably the best option now
[17:57] <craigs63> stochastic:  2.3 on the workflow now, mentions notation.
[17:58] <astraljava> ScottL: Absolutely.
[17:58] <ScottL> #2 i would like to develop a way latter to manage work flows after installation (i.e. add or remove them)
[17:58] <ScottL> s/latter/later
[17:58] <astraljava> #2 is an interesting idea.
[17:58] <ScottL> perhaps in -controls
[17:59] <astraljava> I think that should be it, yeah.
[17:59] <stochastic> craigs63, the "coding and experimental synthesis" part of that is probably excessive
[17:59] <ScottL> so, i think we agree on "record audio" and "record synths" as supported work flows
[17:59] <ScottL> do we want to include others mentioned so far?
[18:00] <falktx> ScottL: if you could do a mock-up of what you want for -controls and managing workflows, I can easily code it for you ;)
[18:01] <ScottL> thank you falktx , we can certainly do that later :)
[18:01] <astraljava> I think we better go with as few as possible, while still maintaining a usable setup that benefits those who install US.
[18:01] <falktx> ScottL: I would try a welcome screen, mini-doc wizard, and small -controls in one app. what do you think?
[18:01] <ScottL> falktx, let's talk about this later if you don't mind
[18:01] <stochastic> ScottL, is there a reason not to include the "Professional Playback" and "Notation" workflows?
[18:02]  * ScottL apologizes if being rude but i really want to get some things decided about work flows, we have already been here one hour
[18:02] <falktx> sure, np
[18:02] <ScottL> stochastic, if you think they are complete, then i will not disagree
[18:02] <ScottL> but we will need someone to work up a wiki page probably describing the work flow in greater detail
[18:03] <stochastic> yes, the sub-sections do need to be combined in the meta package, but okay
[18:03] <astraljava> stochastic: I think those (at least the Notation) require more love until we can commit to them.
[18:03] <stochastic> astraljava, how so?
[18:04] <astraljava> Well, I might be wrong, and maybe I have missed something, but perhaps there are things to be investigated, still? I at least haven't seen them mentioned very often on this channel.
[18:05] <stochastic> but graphics are hardly ever talked about in this channel either, doesn't mean we should ignore that workflow
[18:05]  * stochastic doesn't mean to have attitude there, just a counter example
[18:05] <astraljava> stochastic: I didn't mean we should ignore them. I was just being careful.
[18:05] <ScottL> okay, stochastic and astraljava, how about we try to include them but give them some special attention as well during this process to validate them?
[18:06] <astraljava> I at least want to spend more time on that specific work flow until I can honestly say I can commit on delivering it.
[18:06] <ScottL> +1
[18:06] <stochastic> I would gladly take on the bulk of work associated with a "notation" and a "professional playback" workflow
[18:06] <astraljava> Ok, if you feel like it, then fine by me.
[18:06] <stochastic> astraljava, I'd love to know what you think is required
[18:07] <ScottL> i'll work on the 'recording audio' and 'recording synths' unless others want to them or to assist with them
[18:07] <stochastic> maybe after the meeting
[18:07] <ScottL> are we through the audio work flows then?
[18:07] <astraljava> Sure.
[18:07] <stochastic> I think that covers Audio, yes.
[18:08] <ScottL> graphics next?
[18:08] <stochastic> okay
[18:10] <ScottL> i wouldn't mind a generalistic work flow for creating a scalable vector graphic which would basically be inkscape
[18:11] <ScottL> because it can be used for so many things (fliers, title screens for movies, icons, etc)
[18:11] <ScottL> i think a generalized work flow for editing digital pictures would be helpful too
[18:12] <falktx> inkscape, gimp, and some color picker is more than enough for me
[18:12] <ScottL> but i think the question for editing digital pictures would be the application - gimp or mypaint come to mind
[18:12]  * ScottL also agrees with falktx
[18:12] <falktx> blender comes to mind too
[18:13] <ScottL> falktx, what would you suggest blender be used to accomplish?
[18:14] <falktx> 3d fx on images
[18:14] <falktx> blender can do crazy effect
[18:14] <ScottL> stochastic, astraljava : any thoughts in this area?
[18:14] <falktx> err, blender can do everything!
[18:14] <ScottL> hehe, true
[18:15] <stochastic> as we discuss this, I'll admit that I'm an amateur at best in this dep, but I'd love to see us begin to cater to real professionals in some workflows by putting together stuff that isn't suggested in the standard Ubuntu
[18:15] <astraljava> ScottL: Sorry, no. Not a graphics person.
[18:16] <stochastic> there are some great tools out there, and maybe it won't happen this release, but we should think about pro image/printing/design studios
[18:17] <ScottL> stochastic, i cannot tell you have much i agree with this statement, i know the libre graphics magazine think this way too
[18:17] <ScottL> how about i talk to some people outside this group and help develop this more?
[18:18] <ScottL> shall we move onto video and photography?
[18:18] <ScottL> or will this progress the same as with video?
[18:19] <astraljava> I don't understand the question.
[18:19] <astraljava> But yeah, if you know people who could help with the professional graphics, please do.
[18:20] <ScottL> yes, i meant i will approach professionals who use the tools for their input
[18:21] <astraljava> That part I did get. Not the latter.
[18:21] <ScottL> my last two questions were showing my impatience to be honest as i need to go and do other things
[18:21] <astraljava> Yeah ok. We can move on.
[18:22] <stochastic> so are we leaving graphics and video workflows to be determined at a later date?
[18:22] <ScottL> well, i meant that if video and photography discussion are going to progress the same as the graphics then i will probably withdraw now
[18:22] <ScottL> stochastic, i would say so
[18:23] <stochastic> video needs some debate as to which editor is best
[18:23] <stochastic> but that's not something I know about, I've heard blender is great
[18:23] <ScottL> stochastic, i feel very strongly about blender as the "professional" video editor
[18:23] <falktx> I would vote for kdenlive
[18:23] <stochastic> is OpenShot a contender?
[18:24] <falktx> kdelive is made by the same devs that make MLT (the backend, also used by openshot)
[18:24] <ScottL> plus it includes a compositor which is essential for film grade work flows (i.e. green screen but also severe color bending amongst other abilities)
[18:24] <falktx> ScottL: what about blender and kdenlive?
[18:25] <ScottL> i don't have much opinion between openshot (which has improved very much and development continues) and kdenlive
[18:25] <ScottL> i have heard that both applications are buggy or crashes for some, but work perfectly for others
[18:26] <ScottL> okay, i need to leave the discussion
[18:27] <astraljava> Thanks, at least we got somewhere.
[18:27] <astraljava> Good start for these.
[18:27] <ScottL> wait
[18:27] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap, if you lot are interested what is happening with xubuntu :)
[18:27] <ScottL> i'll offer this about video
[18:28] <ScottL> i will be supporting a film making/music video work flow with blender
[18:28] <astraljava> knome: Thanks! I'm sure many are, but I at least plan on working on the system-level link between Studio and Xubuntu. Not alone, of course (or at least hopefully).
[18:28] <ScottL> i'll be working with a group called "nofilmschool" who use DSLR camera to shoot movies
[18:29] <astraljava> ScottL: Intriguing.
[18:29] <ScottL> i would still suggest that we can develop and support a 'make a home movie' work flow with kdenlive or openshot or whatever
[18:29] <astraljava> Valuable experience.
[18:29] <ScottL> astraljava, yes, i am very, very excited about this and i should be buying a dslr camera this christmas to do this (along with lenses, etc)
[18:29] <ScottL> okay, i'm gone this time ;)
[18:29] <stochastic> I might suggest that we offer essentially two workflows each for graphics and video, one professional trac, one hobbyist trac
[18:30] <astraljava> stochastic: Good idea!
[18:30] <stochastic> ScottL, ^^ last tidbit
[18:31] <christof> ls
[18:31] <stochastic> astraljava, will you be around in 15min to discuss work needed on the workflows I'll be spearheading
[18:32] <astraljava> stochastic: Yep, sure will.
[18:45] <stochastic> hey astraljava, so what's required for a workflow beyond a meta package and some documentation?
[18:46] <astraljava> stochastic: I have no grief with the work flow itself. I'm just not overly familiar with the tools, myself, but I have interest in Notation, so that's why I said I cannot say I can commit to delivering until I've done further research.
[18:47] <stochastic> ahh understandable
[18:47] <astraljava> So I was not under-estimating your efforts there.
[18:47] <stochastic> out of curiosity though what do you think a workflow requires before release?
[18:48] <astraljava> Just speaking from my point-of-view solely.
[18:48] <stochastic> to turn it from an idea on paper to a great software package
[18:48] <astraljava> Well, tested tools, steps, and some consensus from the team that the quality is acceptable.
[18:49] <astraljava> By tools I mean the apps.
[18:49] <astraljava> By steps I mean that several people have run them through, and verified that it works as documented.
[18:49] <astraljava> By quality I mean that the apps are of good quality, and the end result is nothing to be ashamed of, artistic values aside.
[18:52] <stochastic> okay, interesting take
[18:52] <stochastic> I like
[18:53] <stochastic> I was more thinking that we'd want some documentation for each workflow, like step-by-step of the basics, we'd also want it tested etc...
[18:54] <stochastic> but I like your criteria
[18:54] <astraljava> Well, what you are suggesting kinda leads to that, when done properly.
[18:54] <stochastic> yes
[18:55] <astraljava> It's just that at some milestone, we have to keep those in mind when making the decision of whether or not to release said work flow.
[18:57] <astraljava> It's easy to put people to work on them when those are specified. When the steps are clearly defined, asking people to reproduce is the simplest way of finding bugs.
[18:58] <stochastic> well please feel free to yell at me if you feel either the Notation or the Professional Playback workflows are not making the grade by New Years Day
[18:58] <astraljava> I can only commit to one work flow, so far, cause I want to get more involved with the stuff under the hood. That's why I'm participating more in the Xubuntu devel work.
[18:58] <stochastic> great
[18:58] <astraljava> stochastic: Gotcha. But don't think you have to do it alone.
[18:59] <astraljava> I will assist, at least if you need it. But you can certainly head them.
[18:59] <craigs63> I can take a look at the Notation stuff, at least as far as trying what the wiki says ,  I've never used the Musescore program.
[18:59] <craigs63> And as always, nitpicking for spelling and grammar.
[19:00] <astraljava> I'm also gonna try to put more effort into the bug fixing. We've probably got the worst track record on supporting older releases, out of all derivatives.
[19:00] <stochastic> true
[19:01] <stochastic> we generally exude the opinion that we're too busy working on new stuff to worry about those old releases
[19:01] <astraljava> Exactly. Which makes me feel very, very ashamed.
[19:34] <stochastic> knome, can we get the code for the new site to be moved to bzr sometime in the near future https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-resources/website
[19:35] <ScottL> stochastic, can we use a bzr branch under the website team please?  restriction of access and all that
[19:35] <ScottL> you are a member of that team
[19:35]  * ScottL is now reading backscroll while waiting for next text
[19:35] <ScottL> task, not text
[19:38] <knome> stochastic, i'll look at that early next week
[19:40] <stochastic> ScottL, that branch is now owned by the website team.
[19:40] <stochastic> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website
[19:53] <ScottL> stochastic, oh good, thank you!
[20:08] <holstein> AH!
[20:08] <holstein> i should have said i would be in a concert today
[20:08] <astraljava> No prob. You've got most of the work flows assigned.
[20:09] <holstein> cool
[20:09] <holstein> i think...
[20:09] <astraljava> The rest of us are gonna spend the winter in the Bahamas.
[20:09] <holstein> lol
[20:09] <holstein> good plan
[20:10] <astraljava> We should have said that would happen if someone misses this one.
[20:11] <holstein> whats up with that thread about the RT kernel?
[20:11] <holstein> i feel like thats about 3 cycles too late
[20:12] <astraljava> Hmm... no idea.
[20:12] <holstein> maybe its just that Ralph and I get a long so well
[20:13] <astraljava> Best mates, huh?
[20:14] <holstein> yeah
[20:14] <holstein> we go way back
[20:15] <knome> anybody interested in xubuntu stuff, feel free to join our meeting in 1h 45mins at #xubuntu-devel
[20:15] <astraljava> Seriously, who'd that be?!
[20:15] <knome> no idea.
[21:27] <stochastic> ScottL, astraljava, holstein, falktx, in our refinement of the Graphics and Video workflows, we should probably browse some pages like this: http://distrowatch.com/search.php?category=Multimedia
[22:26] <stochastic> Let's combine Notation and Graphics Print Production into just "Print Production"
[22:26] <stochastic> ^^workflows
[22:32] <ScottL> good idea stochastic
[23:38] <stochastic> an interesting review of video editors for Ubuntu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11454037&postcount=11
[23:44] <ScottL> stochastic, interesting
[23:45] <ScottL> we've been shipping both, openshot and blender, for a cycle or two i think
[23:45]  * ScottL can't actually remember for sure
[23:45] <ScottL> but i know we did ship both, maybe openshot got pulled
[23:48] <ScottL> stochastic, i'll offer a single critique to that post, if you use the concept of "scenes" then it _isn't_ to slow or hard to edit long form video