[00:23] <mathiaz> lifeless: hi
[00:23] <lifeless> thumper: ping
[00:23] <thumper> lifeless: pong
[00:23] <lifeless> hi
[00:23] <thumper> please excuse my dodgy internet right now
[00:23] <lifeless> so, thumper, mathiaz wants to work with mysql using lp merge requests
[00:23] <thumper> I have gnomes under the house wiggling wires
[00:24] <lifeless> but with packaging
[00:24] <lifeless> mathiaz: there are two sorts of merges, complete merges and partial, or cherrypick merges
[00:24] <mathiaz> right - I'm trying to figure out what kind of workflow can be put in place
[00:24] <lifeless> mathiaz: lp only supports complete merges (AFAIK) in its web UI today
[00:24] <lifeless> mathiaz: pulling a thread out of a loom is a cherrypick (because you don't want the stuff in the threads under it)
[00:27] <thumper> package branches will hopefully be coming before christmas
[00:27] <mathiaz> lifeless: ok - so it seems that bzr-loom is a good option even though I cannot use the merge request UI from launchpad for now
[00:27] <thumper> :)
[00:28] <mathiaz> lifeless: but I still can send a request with the send command to the mysql developer
[00:28] <thumper> mathiaz: you can push looms to Launchpad
[00:28] <mathiaz> lifeless: and host my looms to LP
[00:28] <lifeless> thumper: this isn't a package branch question so much as a 'support looms more deeply; and support cherrypick merge requests'
[00:28] <thumper> lifeless: ah, ok
[00:28] <lifeless> mathiaz: yes, with send is good
[00:29] <lifeless> thumper: which is why I grabbed you - I know the package branch plan; don't know of the other two enough to advise people
[00:29] <thumper> right
[00:29] <thumper> supporting looms more deeply in the UI is something of a wishlist request right now
[00:29] <mathiaz> thumper: what's the package branch thingy ?
[00:29] <lifeless> mathiaz: james_w's work
[00:29] <thumper> mathiaz: it is branches that are more about packing upstreams rather than patches for upstreams
[00:30] <mathiaz> ok
[00:30] <lifeless> s/packing/packaging/, to save thumper some embarrasment :P
[00:30] <thumper> yeah, typo
[00:30] <lifeless> (some upstreams might like being packed; most would object I think)
[00:30] <mathiaz> so my plan for mysql-server is that I'll branch mysql-server/5.0, then use looms to create one thread for each patch in debian/patches/
[00:31] <lifeless> mathiaz: yup, thats how its intended to work
[00:31] <mathiaz> and then create another thread with the debian/ directory that contains the packaging only stuff
[00:31] <mathiaz> lifeless: is the order of creation important ?
[00:31] <mathiaz> lifeless: ie should I first apply the patches or first create the debian/ directory ?
[00:31] <lifeless> mathiaz: looms are optimised for a stack, but you can insert into the stack at any point
[00:32] <lifeless> so you start with a thread called (say) upstream
[00:32] <lifeless> and thats the 5.0 branch
[00:32] <lifeless> then you can create debian, and plonk the debian contents there
[00:32] <lifeless> and you can create a thread between 5.0 and debian
[00:32] <lifeless> and so on
[00:33] <mathiaz> lifeless: ok. so start with the packaging bits and then the patches/ specific to debian
[00:33] <lifeless> mathiaz: well, any order is fine is what I'm saying, as long as you start with upstream :)
[00:34] <mathiaz> lifeless: ok - and to get the upstream, I just bzr branch lp:~mysql-server/5.0
[00:34] <mathiaz> lifeless: ?
[00:34] <mathiaz> lifeless: I don't the bzr-loom plugin installed yet
[00:34] <lifeless> install the plugin
[00:34] <mathiaz> lifeless: as there isn't a package yet
[00:34] <lifeless> bzr branch lp:~mysql-server/5.0; cd 5.0; bzr nick 5.0; bzr loomify
[00:35] <lifeless> mathiaz: hmm, I could swear it's packaged
[00:35] <lifeless> mathiaz: anyhow, bzr branch lp:bzr-loom ~/.bazaar/plugins/loom
[00:35] <wgrant> !info loom hardy
[00:35] <wgrant> !info bzr=loom hardy
[00:35] <mathiaz> lifeless: there is a debian/ branch in lp
[00:35] <wgrant> !info bzr-loom hardy
[00:35] <wgrant> Gah.
[00:35] <wgrant> !info bzr-loom intrepid
[00:35] <mathiaz> it seems that it's in debian but hasn't made to ubuntu yet
[00:35]  * lifeless hands wgrant apt-cache madison
[00:36] <wgrant> lifeless: rmadison is rather more useful for that.
[00:36] <wgrant> As it allows one to see more than one's own distroseries.
[00:36] <wgrant> Without having Intrepid sources.list lines.
[00:36] <mathiaz> lifeless: ok thanks - I'll install the loom plugin before branching mysql-server/5.0
[00:36] <lifeless> wgrant: well, to each their own
[00:37] <wgrant> Can loomless clients read loom branches?
[00:37] <mwhudson_> wgrant: no
[00:38] <lifeless> wgrant: loom is a new branch object type
[00:40] <wgrant> So we probably want to backport bzr-loom to everywhere possible once it's in Intrepid.
[00:43] <mathiaz> lifeless: If I want to create a local repository before branching mysql-server/5.0, which options should I use ?
[00:43] <mathiaz> lifeless: for bzr init-repo
[00:44] <lifeless> none
[00:45] <mathiaz> lifeless: but it makes sense to create a repo ?
[00:45] <lifeless> sure (though you likely will only have one branch using a loom)
[00:45] <lifeless> (though for backports etc you may want more)
[00:45] <mathiaz> lifeless: well - we usually have a branch per release
[00:46] <lifeless> mathiaz: sure, repo it up then
[00:46] <mathiaz> lifeless: for apparmor, there is ubuntu, ubuntu-gutsy and ubuntu-hardy
[00:46] <mathiaz> lifeless: ok - thanks for your help
[00:58] <Odd_Bloke> Is it possible to get information out of LP without screen-scraping?
[00:58] <beuno> Odd_Bloke, +text for bugs
[00:58] <beuno> what information are you looking to extract?
[00:58] <wgrant> Odd_Bloke: There is python-launchpad-bugs, and there's meant to be a nice complete API within a couple of months.
[00:59] <Odd_Bloke> beuno: I dunno, someone was just talking about having to screen scrape and I was wondering if they were right.
[00:59] <wgrant> Very probably.
[00:59] <wgrant> python-launchpad-bugs screenscrapes for its writable backend, I believe.
[01:01] <wgrant> Hah, I see that BitKeeper is still using a MySQL quote on their comparisons page (which is ridiculous in itself).
[02:03] <beuno> so...  is it expected that LP shows the help in the footer?
[02:03] <beuno> and that I can't expand information on the right side?
[02:03] <beuno> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~beuno/loggerhead/zpt.cleaner_urls specifically
[02:06]  * beuno pokes kiko
[02:08] <wgrant> beuno: I believe that mpt removed the help tab last night (at least he said so on one of my bugs)
[02:08] <wgrant> That's a slightly odd place to put the help, however.
[02:09] <beuno> yes, although, you don't really see it if you don't scroll down, so I guess if it's going to be misplaced, it's a good place to put it  :p
[02:09] <wgrant> It looks like the CSS was removed, or something odd like that.
[02:09] <wgrant> As the div seems intact.
[02:09] <kiko> beuno, no, something's wrong.
[02:09] <kiko> mthaddon, ^^^
[02:10] <mthaddon> kiko, let me re roll out the edge reverted code to the apache server
[02:10] <wgrant> beuno: You mean you can't expand the portlets on the left?
[02:11] <wgrant> I can't see anything on the right to be expandable, though the portlets aren't.
[02:11] <kiko> mthaddon, gotcha.
[02:12] <beuno> wgrant, not sure what a portlet is, but those grey thingies that expand
[02:12] <beuno> javascript errors and all that
[02:12] <mthaddon> beuno, try now
[02:12] <wgrant> beuno: That's a portlet.
[02:13] <wgrant> It works.
[02:13] <kiko> mthaddon, thanks. something to note in the rollout procedure?
[02:13] <mthaddon> kiko, just that I forgot to re-roll back to the apache server - sorry
[02:14] <kiko> no problemo
[02:14] <wgrant> Is +icing served directly by Apache, so gets out of sync?
[02:14] <kiko> yeah
[02:14] <beuno> mthaddon, fixed, thanks
[02:14] <wgrant> A good idea.
[02:14] <mthaddon> because we want it to be static (served faster)
[02:14] <mthaddon> beuno, cool - sorry about that
[02:14] <kiko> mthaddon, I think this is what mars and tom b. were trying to diagnose in our previous rollout.
[02:15] <mthaddon> kiko, I'll have a think about ways to ensure we always rollout to the apache server when we do a CP
[02:15] <kiko> cool.
[02:17] <mthaddon> kiko, maybe just a script that checks if the app servers and apache servers get out of sync with bzr revnos would do it
[02:17] <kiko> yeah, that actually sounds like the best idea -- can you easily differentiate between edge, lpnet and staging?
[02:17] <mthaddon> yep
[02:20] <beuno> or revids, revnos can be a bit elusive
[02:20] <beuno> :)
[02:20] <beuno> (probably not with pqm though)
[02:20] <kiko> mthaddon, beuno has a good point because of cherry-picks.
[02:21] <kiko> mthaddon, i.e. if you have edge version 4+1 cherry pick you can't tell it apart from RF version 5
[02:21] <mthaddon> true
[02:25] <mthaddon> ok, I'm out of here - have a good one
[08:00] <mpt> Goooooooooooooooooooooooooood morning Launchpadders!
[08:03] <leoquant> morning mpt
[08:04] <mpt> wgrant, every time someone needs to learn what a "portlet" is, an angel loses its wings
[08:09] <wgrant> mpt: How *do* you do that?
[08:10] <wgrant> I only unlocked my screen about 2 minutes ago.
[08:10] <wgrant> After being gone for 6 hours.
[11:23] <asac> i have a launchpad branch synched from SVN and have another branch i synched using bzr-svn ... now i want to merge the bzr-svn branch on top of the other, but merge complains that the repository formats are incompatible :(
[11:23] <asac> rick-root-pack vs. pack-0.92
[11:24] <asac> any way i can get bzr-svn use pack-0.92? or do i need to request a sync in launchpad to get that format
[11:24] <asac> ?
[11:24] <jelmer> asac: you'll only be able to merge if you upgrade the pack-0.92 branch to rich-root-pack
[11:24] <asac> jelmer: unfortunately thats not an option because that pack-0.92 branch is auto synched on launchpad
[11:25] <asac> its lp:network-manager
[11:25] <wgrant> I tried to do the same thing using bzr-rebase some months ago, but gave up.
[11:25] <jelmer> asac: you can create your own copy of lp:network-manager and upgrade that
[11:25] <asac> jelmer: but thats a dead end :)
[11:25] <asac> i dont want to upgrade that branch everytime i want to merge in a new snapshot
[11:26] <asac> jelmer: maybe i can make bzr-svn use a different branch format that is compatible?
[11:26] <jelmer> asac: rich-root-pack will probably become the default bzr format in the next release of bzr ni favor of pack-0.92
[11:26] <asac> e.g. an older one?
[11:26] <asac> jelmer: but when will launchpad branches get upgraded?
[11:27] <jelmer> asac: bzr-svn uses rich-root-pack for a reason, it doesn't work with pack-0.92
[11:27] <jelmer> asac: not sure, maybe the lp folks can say (I'm just a bzr developer, not related to lp)
[11:27] <asac> but i used something else before :) ... just wondered if that old format is "more" compatible
 bzr is full of crack for changing the repo formats all the time </rant>
[11:28] <jelmer> laga: we're just more vocal about it. A lot of other vcs'es will upgrade your repository silently
[11:29] <jelmer> asac: afaik not
[11:29] <asac> mwhudson__: lifeless: ^^ any idea?
[11:29] <jelmer> abentley: hi
[11:30] <asac> mwhudson__: lifeless: maybe we can upgrade the lp:network-manager branch to use rich-root-pack ?
[11:30] <mwhudson__> you can pull from packs to rich-root-pack
[11:31] <mwhudson__> but i am not here
[11:31] <asac> mwhudson__: ok. have fun
[11:31] <asac> ill play around in the meantime
[11:31] <jelmer> asac: why are you interested in upgrading to the same format as lp:network-manager, btw?
[11:32] <jelmer> if that's a vcs-import, you can't push to it anyway
[11:32] <asac> jelmer: i am not interested in upgrading to the same format, but to upgrade lp:network-manager
[11:33] <asac> jelmer: thats why i cant upgrade network-manager to locally ... i would ahve to do that everytime i want to get a new snapshot from it
[11:34] <jelmer> asac: merging from a pack-0.92 (e.g. lp:network-manager) into a rich-root-pack branch happens on the fly
[11:34] <jelmer> no need to have a local upgraded copy of lp:network-manager
[11:35] <jelmer> asac: mixing the use of bzr-svn and vcs-imports will be problematic though
[11:35] <jelmer> asac: you may want to use the GNOME bzr mirror instead (http://bzr-mirror.gnome.org/), which was made with bzr-svn
[11:35] <asac> jelmer: ok. here is the point. i have a svn branch that has debian/ only in svn.debian.org
[11:35] <asac> i want to convince the debian developer to join forces by moving this work to launchpad
[11:35] <asac> so we can share the branch
[11:35] <asac> however, the branches should be "full-source" branches
[11:36] <asac> so to start with i wanted to take the network-manager branch and merge the debian/ directory only branch on top of that :)
[11:36] <jelmer> asac: in that case, you may indeed want to use the bzr-mirror.gnome.org copy of network-manager
[11:36] <jelmer> that should work as you would expect, no format issues involved
[11:37] <asac> jelmer: yeah. major point about doing that is that i already have branches with lot of work based on the lp: branch
[11:37] <asac> but anyway thanks for the hint about bzr-mirror.gnome.org
[11:37] <asac> didnt know abut that
[11:38] <asac> jelmer: are the branches done in a "smart" fashion on bzr-mirror.gnome.org?
[11:41] <asac> jelmer: using that thing just worked. now i have to figure what to do about my legacy work here :/
[11:41] <jelmer> asac: smart as in automated? yes
[11:42] <asac> jelmer: i mean smart in that bzr knows about the branch relation :)
[11:42] <jelmer> asac: It knows about the relation between branches imported using bzr-svn
[11:45] <jelmer> hmm, somebody should mass-register the bzr-mirror branches in Launchpad
[11:46] <asac> jelmer: yeah!
[11:46] <asac> ill do that for NM now :)
[11:46] <asac> ...NETWORKMANAGER_0_6_0_RELEASE$ bzr merge ../trunk/
[11:46] <asac> doesnt complain about not common parent
[11:46] <asac> great
[13:28] <Toftegaard> I'm trying to download the xorg-edgers-live-test from http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/xorg-server/xorg-pkg-tools/files.
[13:28] <Toftegaard> Any idea why it isnt working?
[13:29] <Hobbsee> mpt: THE SKY IS FALLING!!!
[13:29] <mpt> hwuh?
[13:29] <Hobbsee> Please try again
[13:30] <Hobbsee> Sorry, there was a problem connecting to the Launchpad server.
[13:30] <Hobbsee> Try reloading this page in a minute or two. If the problem persists, let us know in the #launchpad IRC channel on Freenode.
[13:30]  * Peng bursts out laughing.
[13:30] <Hobbsee> Thanks for your patience.
[13:30] <Hobbsee> mpt: THE SKY IS STILL FALLING!!!  Search for large poles to hold it up!
[13:30] <mpt> Large pole? ... Would a long pointy stick do?
[13:31] <Hobbsee> mpt: there's only one Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!™
[13:31] <Hobbsee> mpt: if you're going to be able to hold the sky up with it, go ahead.
[13:31] <mpt> That's a shame, we really need two for the sky
[13:31] <mpt> Ask kiko, he knows more about this than I do
[13:31] <Hobbsee> Toftegaard: seems to work?
[13:31] <Toftegaard> Yep Thanks!
[13:32] <Hobbsee> mpt: okay, sky has stopped falling now.
[13:32] <mpt> that's good
[13:33] <Toftegaard> good luck with the falling sky.
[13:38] <abentley> jelmer: hi
[13:40] <kiko> Hobbsee, hmm, weird. mpt, can you ask herb to look into this when he's up? I'm outta here
[13:41] <Hobbsee> kiko: herb?  under that nick?  OK.
[13:41] <Hobbsee> oh, that was to mpt.  never mind.
[13:42] <kiko> Hobbsee, you can ask too -- to him or to mtomhaddon.
[13:42] <mpt> kiko, but it's working now
[13:42] <kiko> mpt, yes, but we should know why it wasn't a minute ago.
[13:42] <mpt> ok
[13:42] <kiko> mpt, btw, cprov bets that your branch is the one causing failures on apa-logs
[13:42] <kiko> you should talk to him
[13:43] <cprov> mpt: #lp-code
[13:46] <jelmer> abentley: I was going to ask about mass-registering the GNOME bzr mirror branches on lp but thumper and mwhudson already indicated they liked the idea
[13:59] <abentley> jelmer: okay.
[14:04] <jelmer> abentley: Somewhat related to that - are you aware of some way to override the registrant name when registering a branch using Launchpads XML/RPC API?
[14:05] <abentley> No, I'm entirely ignorant about the API stuff.
[14:05] <jelmer> I'd like to set the registrant to "gnome-bzr-mirror" to avoid myself being the registrant of all these branches
[14:05] <kiko> jelmer, or use ~registry
[14:05] <jelmer> abentley: Do you know who I should talk to about it ?
[14:07] <abentley> jelmer: thumper, mwhudson_ or jml might know.
[14:08] <jelmer> abentley: thanks
[14:08] <jelmer> all asleep probably though :-/
[14:45] <seyed-mehdi> hi everyone,
[14:46] <seyed-mehdi> I can't open any https pages. can anyone please help ?
[14:48] <lamalex> Can I delete a series?
[14:50] <seyed-mehdi> any suggestion ?
[14:51] <Hobbsee> seyed-mehdi: please don't repeat questions in multple channels simultaneously.
[14:52] <seyed-mehdi> Hobbsee: but im searching for solution . so what can I do ? just stop asking and going on with problem ?
[14:52] <Hobbsee> ah, not quite simultaneous.
[14:52] <Hobbsee> seyed-mehdi: for a start, mentioning *which* https pages you can't open
[14:53] <seyed-mehdi> Hobbsee: ANY https, such az https://addons.mozilla.org and others
[14:53] <Hobbsee> in which case, it's not a launchpad problem, and not relevant to this channel.
[14:53] <persia> Oh. That's clearly not a launchpad issue then.
[15:10] <lamalex> So does anyone know how I can delete a series?
[15:11] <persia> lamalex: Nobody actively responding right now (and there's only one person here who didn't see when you asked before).  You might wait some more, or if it takes too long, ask a question on launchpad.
[15:12] <lamalex> thanks
[15:17] <SpookyET> hi
[15:27] <mpt> herb, from about 1228 to about 1230 UTC, for multiple people, <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/xorg-server/xorg-pkg-tools/files> returned a "Sorry, there was a problem connecting to the Launchpad server" error. kiko would like you to investigate why this happened.
 Hobbsee, hmm, weird. mpt, can you ask herb to look into this when he's up? I'm outta here
[15:30] <herb> mpt: ok
[15:31] <mpt> thanks
[15:43] <dgmorales_> Hello,I've just tried to browse the code for lp:mailman, but "there was a problem connecting to the Lanchpad Server" ...
[15:44] <dgmorales_> posting here as asked on the error message
[15:45] <beuno> dgmorales_, it's been slow since yesterday, and AFAIK, they're working on it. Give it a few more tries and it will stick eventually  :)
[15:46] <dgmorales_> ok, thanks :)
[15:46] <Hobbsee> herb: ^ another victim, then.
[16:57] <asac> jelmer: can you remove your -applet branch so i can create one in the realm of ~network-manager team?
[16:57] <asac> jelmer: launchpad doesnt allow me to mirror it twice ;)
[17:02] <jelmer> it should be possible to have two branches with the same name but a different owner
[17:02] <jelmer> what url are you trying to push to?
[17:02] <asac> jelmer: no it doesnt work
[17:02] <asac> jelmer: please delete your branch
[17:02] <asac> launchpad tries to be smart and it always directs to your branch
[17:03] <asac> when i want to use the bzr-mirror one
[17:03] <jelmer> my branch is a registration of the bzr-mirror one
[17:03] <asac> jelmer: alternatively i can add you to network-manager team and you change ownership
[17:03] <asac> then i can drop you again :)
[17:04] <jelmer> asac: you should in either case be able to push to lp:~network-manager/network-manager/branch-name
[17:04] <asac> jelmer: i can push there
[17:04] <asac> jelmer: please drop your sync branch
[17:04] <asac> i cannot create a second mirrored branch from the same source :)
[17:04] <asac> and i want that main mirror branch not to live in ~user realm :)
[17:06] <asac> try to create a new mirrored branch for  http://bzr-mirror.gnome.org/NetworkManager/trunk in the network-manager product and you'll see what i mean
[17:06] <jelmer> asac: We'll hopefully change the registrant of all those branches to "gnome-bzr-mirror" soon
[17:06] <jelmer> once Launchpad allows it
[17:07] <asac> jelmer: yes. but still for now ;)
[17:09] <jelmer> asac: What's the problem with the current situation? I'm just the registrant of that branch, not the owner
[17:09] <asac> jelmer: its ~jelmer
[17:10] <jelmer> asac: Yes, that's because I registered the URL, not because I'm the owner
[17:11] <jelmer> It's a mirrored branch, nobody can modify the copy on launchpad anyway
[17:12] <asac> hmm
[17:12] <asac> ok
[17:12] <asac> doesnt look nice. but well
[17:12] <asac> not sure why you insist on keeping it ;)
[17:13] <asac> i cannot change branch description and so on
[17:14] <jelmer> I can't actually change it right here
[17:14] <asac> jelmer: you can delete it
[17:15] <jelmer> asac: I mean, there is no lp XML-RPC for deleting branches, only for registering them
[17:15] <jelmer> asac: and I don't have access to the LP web UI from here
[17:15] <jelmer> I'll happily change it once I do
[17:15] <asac> jelmer: you can hit "delete branch" on the left
[17:16] <asac> jelmer: not access to LP web UI?
[17:16] <asac> i mean you can reach XML-RPC ... how cant you have Web UI?
[17:16] <jelmer> asac: I'm on a VT100 and w3m doesn't appear to like lp's cookies :-(
[17:18] <asac> jelmer: elinks works
[17:18] <jelmer> links didn't but I'll give elinks a try
[17:19] <asac> err even w3m works
[17:19] <asac> i can happily "delete branch" :)
[17:19] <asac> in w3m
[17:19] <jelmer> I can't get past the login
[17:20] <asac> start X ;)
[17:20] <jelmer> it just redirects me to the same login page
[17:21] <jelmer> uhm, X is not going to work on a dumb terminal :-)
[17:21] <jelmer> I'll be home in a few hours I can delete it then
[17:21] <asac> jelmer: cool
[17:21] <jelmer> I still think the point is moot, but anyway
[17:21] <asac> just remember ;)
[17:27] <jelmer> asac: ah, you're right
[17:27] <jelmer> elinks is less pedantic than w3m
[17:28] <asac> :)
[17:28] <asac> jelmer: what w3m versin are you running?
[17:30] <jelmer> asac: fixed
[17:30] <jelmer> 0.5.1+cvs-1.968
[17:31] <asac> jelmer: most likely a regression then
[17:32] <jelmer> yeah, probably
[17:32] <asac> thanks. now i am happy again ;)
[17:33] <asac> lets see when it gets scanned ;)
[17:33]  * jelmer doesn't hope there won't be more people requesting a change of registrant..
[17:33] <jelmer> any lp folks about?
[17:33] <asac> hehe
[17:34] <jelmer> Either the registrant shouldn't matter or lp should allow the same URL to be registered more than once
[17:34] <asac> well. i am probably the one of the more concerned in ubuntu about synched branches ;)
[17:36] <jelmer> asac: just curious though - why does the registrant matter?
[17:36] <asac> jelmer: otherwise i cannot edit branch details
[17:36] <asac> jelmer: and if its in an unauthorized user account it can just be deleted which is painful
[17:37] <asac> it might not be deleted physically, but virtually its gone and you have to figure what source the mirror was from
[17:37] <jelmer> asac: Hmm, so changing the registrant to "gnome-bzr-mirror" wouldn't help either then?
[17:37] <asac> jelmer: it would as long as people trust gnome-bzr-mirror ;)
[17:38] <asac> but having a team is probably better to accumulate trust over time than individual users
[17:38] <asac> so yes. i could live with that
[17:38] <jelmer> asac: but you still wouldn't have the ability to change the branch details then
[17:38] <asac> right.
[17:39] <asac> for me having the "delete" issue is more important. the branch details should be properly maintained in the upstream bzr repo
[17:39] <asac> or the gnome-bzr-mirror team should offer to update the details
[17:39] <asac> e.g. by bug report
[17:42] <jelmer> asac: hmm, that'd be more complicated than I'd like
[17:42] <asac> jelmer: right. anyway if its in a team its ok :)
[17:42] <asac> unless the team becomes untrusted for whatever reason.
[17:43] <jelmer> well, it includes the person behind bzr-mirror.gnome.org
[17:44] <asac> jelmer: sure. but that looks pretty trustworthy judging from the domain :)
[17:45] <jelmer> hmm, guess I could've just changed the owner to the team then
[17:45] <asac> jelmer: yes. if you do that for every sync branch registered itw ould be a good start :)
[17:45] <jelmer> asac: That was the idea, but the Launchpad UI doesn't allow that yet
[17:46] <jelmer> and I don't feel like manually updating the owner of ~100 branches
[17:46] <asac> what is important is that i lives in ~gnome-bzr-mirror and not ~jelmer :)
[17:46] <asac> ah ok
[17:46] <asac> jelmer: yeah. you should have thought about that before :-D
[17:46] <asac> but well ... maybe launchpad team can help?
[17:47] <jelmer> asac: I really don't see the issue there given that I am a member of gnome-bzr-mirror
[17:47] <jelmer> yes, it's not ideal but hopefully that'll be fixable soon
[17:47] <asac> jelmer: it is not about you in person ... its just that its good to have a line in the long run
[17:48] <asac> jelmer: its not an important issue. i have what i want for now and in the end we should go for gnome-bzr-mirror ... or even allow multiple virtual instances of the same mirror branch
[17:49] <asac> now i just have to figure how to migrate my work done on the old branch to this new one
[17:49] <asac> :)
[17:49] <asac> i have the feeling that this will end up being just one monolithic commit for what i have done so far :/
[17:49] <jelmer> asac: if your old branch was based on the vcs-improts copy you'll have to use diff+patch
[17:50] <asac> yeah i understand that. i hoped for something smarter :(
[17:50] <jelmer> the rebase plugin has an open bug about allowing this
[17:51] <asac> jelmer: is there a workaround to overcome current rebase issue?
[17:51] <jelmer> asac: s/bug/wishlist
[17:51] <asac> but i doubt that it will work as i merged multiple times to get latest snapshot
[17:52] <jelmer> asac: no, there's no workaround - it's just missing functionality
[17:52] <jelmer> asac: merge won't work either - the file ids don't match
[17:52] <asac> jelmer: all this wouldnt be painful if bzr merge would have a feature that would allow me to automatically use the cherry-picked commit message
[17:53] <jelmer> asac: it's not just that - cherrypicking will break as well
[17:53] <jelmer> because bzr won't recognize that the two files with the same path in both branches are the same file
[17:53] <asac> jelmer: if i merge -cREV1 ?
[17:54] <asac> sure?
[17:54] <asac> hmm
[17:56] <jelmer> yeah, I'm pretty sure about this
[17:56] <asac> how demotivating :(
[17:56] <jelmer> implementing a workaround around a similar issue in bzr-svn (upgrading the mapping scheme) took ages
[19:20] <doctormo> is jamesh or flacoste here?
[19:20] <doctormo> I'm wondering about how I can get user information (attributes) when people logon using openid. So far i'd have to make http requests and skim details.
[19:22] <doctormo> Infact if anyone here knows of methods to use with launchpad to get public data in xml or some striped down way. do let me know
[19:38] <RzR> hi
[19:39] <RzR> how long could it take to "scan" a bzr branch ?
[19:40] <beuno> RzR, usually, minutes. In some ocasions, it can take a couple of hours, if any big imports are going on
[19:40] <beuno> from the looks of it, something is going on at the moment  :)
[19:40] <RzR> lp:~rzr/firefox-extensions/flashblock.ubuntu 		0 New 	2008-06-20 18:26:54 CEST 2 hours 10 minutes ago 	This branch has not been scanned yet.
[19:41] <beuno> I'd give it a while longer, it'll catch up
[19:41] <RzR> ok
[19:42] <RzR> BTW, I deleted a branch and created one w/ the same name, is it a problem ?
[19:43] <beuno> it shouldn't, but I'm just guessing
[20:17] <db-keen> I have a feature request for Launchpad, should I register a blueprint, or ask here, or what?
[20:19] <db-keen> ah well, here goes: Launchpad allows an arbitrary email address for bug reporting, why not allow an arbitrary URL as well, for bug tracking services not known to launchpad? For that matter, it's easier to paste a URL and have launchpad figure out if it's familiar with the service than trying to find it in that long list.
[20:29] <bialix> hi, I have a question: how can I create new super-project at Launchpad?
[20:30] <RzR> db-keen: blueprint is best IMHO
[20:33] <matsubara> bialix: Ask in https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad. Provide the URLs to the projects you want to include under the super-project
[20:33] <bialix> ok
[21:53] <RzR> beuno: It's done now took 2 hours or so :)
[21:54] <beuno> RzR, it's usually faster, but I'm glad it's done
[22:20] <bdmurray> Is there a problem w/ code.launchpad.net?  I got an e-mail about a branch change about an hour after the fact
[22:22] <RzR> same for me
[22:22] <bdmurray> I think the web page was slow to update too
[22:23] <RzR> some overload probally


[11:08]  * yofel wired kci to his own monitoring now
[11:08] <yofel> lets see if that'll show something when it dies next time
 nice ;-D
 what do you use ?
 Zabbix (3.0)
 I can make a team account if someone else wants to see it
 ah, I use uptimerobot.com
 sometimes my sites my be pingable, but the http is not working or throwing errors
[12:05] <BluesKaj> Hey folks
 hi BlueKaj
 seems loike my IRC wont stay connected today :/
[19:07] <snele> yofel: clivejo: sgclark: i installed 16.04 daily today. bugs: no favorites in kickoff, folderview widget with "install kubuntu" icon messed up
[19:07] <snele> after adding staging ppas after reboot i got annoying kdewallet popups http://postimg.org/image/g7puh7m07/
[19:07] <snele> disabling kdewallet fixes it
[19:08] <snele> apart from that, smooooooth ride :)
 :)
[19:28] <snele> if anyone experience flickering/flashing panel on intel gpu, here is the fix: https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showthread.php?69912-FIX-for-flickering-flashing-panel-on-Intel-gpu&p=386097#post386097
[19:28] <snele> :)
[19:54] <snele> ah i forgot... sddm autologin option does not work
[20:42] <mamarley> SDDM autologin works for me, but I configured it a long time ago and haven't tried changing it recently.
[21:17] <yofel> snele: kickoff, folderview and autologin are known issues, kwallet is new to me though...
[21:29] <clivejo> yofel: can I create kubuntu_unstable branch for muon?
[21:29] <clivejo> http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-kde/plasma/muon.git/
[21:30] <yofel> yes
[21:31] <clivejo> should I sync xenial branch with the archive?
[21:32] <yofel> yes
[21:32] <clivejo> !info muon xenial
[21:32] <clivejo> oh it is sync'ed
[21:33] <clivejo> must be libqapt thats not
 Frameworks 5.21 released
[22:31]  * mamarley slaps  around a bit with a large trout.
[22:35] <clivejo> like a crazy person?
 @kubteleirc_bot, that's exactly what I was thinking
 ahoneybun ^
 chack out telegram
 valorie freenode webchat is ugly AF
 it meks me feel like it's the '90s
[22:59] <valorie> yes, it is ugly
[22:59]  * valorie should be away -- my son is here and it's his birthday!
 ooooh
 happy birthday
 ahoneybun: I meant to check trello, not telegram


[00:05] <duanedesign> \o/
[00:06] <kklimonda> and another one.. wish it were this fun to actually work on my application and not on libraries it uses ;)
[03:57] <Chipaca> espen77: duanedesign: magiciacada!
[03:57] <Chipaca> y'awl should use it a lot more
[05:03] <duanedesign> Chipaca: you are right...
[05:03] <duanedesign> i should get used to recommending it to people.
[05:04] <duanedesign> stuck in my old ways :P
[05:06] <Chipaca> heh
[10:03] <fiftypence> hhonk
[13:38] <espen77> Soo i started to write a little twitter note whenever i find something that i whish was different. Got a little list for u1 now, where is the prefered place to file it? post on forum, as bugs in launchpad or keep it secret?
[15:14] <nilsma> are there any reason ubuntu-one should not work properly on Lubuntu?
[15:23] <dobey> nilsma: assuming you have all the right dependencies installed, it should work as fine as it does on normal ubuntu
[15:25] <nilsma> dobey: thank you for your reply :)
[18:50] <adamnelson> is there a server issue happening?
[18:51] <adamnelson> I cant seem to share a file with the public. Getting lovely 503 errors
[18:52] <adamnelson> honk


[00:45] <diddledan> https://www.maplin.co.uk/cs/google-mini-offer?cmpid=email%3Aweeklyemail%3A1212018%3Aversion-More2_List3_LAPSED_C2_062017_SG_IN_ONLY_Adestra%26utm_source%3Dnewsletter%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3D18P11-16&S2REF=409325
[00:45] <diddledan> ergh
[00:45] <diddledan> you get the picture, though, click the link
[01:00] <diddledan> WPA3?! :-o https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3k57jv/after-more-than-a-decade-wi-fi-security-finally-gets-a-major-update
[07:55] <Gromit_> Hello, Good Morning :)
[08:04] <GromitUK> much better handle, :)
[09:59] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:01] <zmoylan-pi> ::mutter mutter:: ::pulls duvet over head::
[12:06] <sebsebseb> Ah major issues trying to get any USB's loading up properly from from this lap top,  get Grub, but cant go past that black screen, and that's with newly burnt usb's with isos, and old ones even, werid it used to work  in past once secure boot waas disabled and that,  but now nope, when its back with a new motherboard and hard disk
[13:16] <daftykins> o0


[23:15] <qwebirc4266> i have used mythtv for about 3 years on old 2004 computer
[23:15] <qwebirc4266> so i finally upgraded
[23:16] <qwebirc4266> z270 asrock gaming itx 16gb ram and intel ssd
[23:17] <qwebirc4266> installed 16.04 - it would work fine, then after reboot (as least I thought) it would not record (recorder failed) and no live tv
[23:17] <qwebirc4266> did this more than 15 times so i could locate the problem - no help
[23:18] <qwebirc4266> so one of the times i used a regular hard drive - and that works - and still does.
[23:18] <qwebirc4266> so i try again many times with ssd - still not working after reboot (ok before)
[23:18] <qwebirc4266> so i was trying to remember what majic i did on the regular hard drive
[23:19] <qwebirc4266> in frustration (this since june 20) i decided to image the hard drive and put it on the ssd
[23:20] <qwebirc4266> it worked - for a while - but now has the same problem again - recorder failed and cannot watch live tv
[23:20] <qwebirc4266> is there something i am missing about using an ssd?
[23:24] <qwebirc4266> motherboard is z270 gaming -itx/ac.  cpu is intel i5 7600k (i am not overclocking)
[23:25] <qwebirc4266> memory is 16gb corsair ddr4 2400mhz 10ns latency (would the low latency have anyting to do with prob?)
[23:26] <qwebirc4266> I am using built in graphics which are hdmi 2.0 4k @60hz - but have tried standard hd
[23:28] <qwebirc4266> as the hard drive is still operating the mythtv program and the ssd gives the error this seems to be the only difference I can determine.
[23:28] <qwebirc4266> the ssd has been in the 2004 computer and working fine (for a 2004 computer)
[23:32] <qwebirc4266> I tried installing 14.04 mythbuntu and that works on my skylake computer and works with the kabylake on the fatal1ty z270 itx/ac but as the z270 needs 16.04, when i run 14.04 i get no sound and no internet.  when i run 16.04 on ssd and z270 i get picture, sound (only spdif not hdmi) and internet but no live tv and no recording
[23:37] <qwebirc4266>  have also run fstrim -v / to make sure the image did not leave problems
[23:46] <tgm4883> Sounds like the back end is starting before your they is ready
[23:47] <tgm4883> I'm on my phone currently so can't help, but try restarting the back end after it boots
[23:52] <qwebirc4266> ok, i had also set it where the front end does not auto start - so the back end is running for quite a while and then I start front end.  there does seem to be a delay at times though, the front end at first says no back end and then few seconds later - green check mark and says connected
[23:54] <qwebirc4266> still no recording
[23:54] <qwebirc4266> thanks for the effort though
[23:57] <qwebirc4266> if i exit front end and then turn off back end, then turn on back end and then wait 10 seconds or so and then start front end it still has no reocording and no live tv.  using hdhomerun network tuner - front end log says something about not able to see tuners


[16:36] <mpt> katie, I think part of the reason I keep trying to tap the infographic is that it has exactly the same inset style as Dash items
[16:38] <mpt> like the "Running apps" shapes or the "Friends" app
[19:32] <xnox> mpt: btw. I think we will be mandating: volume up, down, and a button (which is kind of power on/off/lock button). Those three buttons are needed to run recovery mode of the phone to flash/factory reset it.


[12:12] <Innatech> so, I can't make much headway w/just a busybox shell--or, at least, I don't see how.  Is there a better way for me to get dmraid going during a server install?
[01:01] <leonel> didn't had noticed before  ..   Feisty server  has universe enabled by default
[01:02] <ScottK> Yes.
[01:02] <ScottK> It was by design.
[01:02] <ScottK> Only for new installs.
[01:03] <mathiaz> ScottK: but also for server ?
[01:03] <ScottK> mathiaz: I don't think it was specified, it was for everything.
[01:03] <ScottK> Why would server be different?
[01:03] <ajmitch> ScottK: I was thinking that I was only going to be turned on for the desktop cd
[01:03] <leonel> I saw a bug report today  about the same for gutsy being  triaged
[01:03] <leonel> :)
[01:04] <leonel> but checking   there's nothing  installed from universe
[01:04] <ScottK> Let me see if I can find the spec.
[01:04] <mathiaz> I was just surprised when I tested the latest iso for tribe-4.
[01:04] <ajmitch> ScottK: I think that a server should only have packages available from the supported repositories by default :)
[01:04] <leonel> well I've  selected only DNS
[01:04] <ScottK> ajmitch: Why is it different than a Desktop that also has support contract issues?
[01:06] <mathiaz> the reason it suprised me at first was that universe is not supported
[01:06] <mathiaz> and main is supported
[01:06] <mathiaz> so when I install a server for a production environement I don't want to install any stuff from universe.
[01:06] <leonel> this is the  greatest from ubuntu ..  we can  support  universe  ;)
[01:06] <mathiaz> which could happened if universe is enabled by default.
[01:07] <ajmitch> leonel: not in the sense of a support contract, unless it's by !canonical
[01:07] <leonel> ajmitch:  I know
[01:07] <mathiaz> on the other hand, I've read and heard a lot of time that if you need to enable universe any way to be able to install something.
[01:07] <leonel> and that was the same thing that keep me from installing  ubuntu as server
[01:08] <leonel> and now  that  I can help to support universe   things have changed for me
[01:08] <mathiaz> /id//
[01:08] <mathiaz> /if//
[01:08] <ScottK> Here's the spec https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse.  Gotta run.
[01:08] <ajmitch> we're trying to get away from php 4 as fast as possible :)
[01:08] <mathiaz> I don't have strong opinion about it... Just suprised and asked around.
[01:09] <ajmitch> all those use cases are for (home) desktop users, too
[01:09] <ajmitch> for a server I'd always err on the side of caution & not enable it
[01:10] <mathiaz> ajmitch: agreed. I've just had a quick look at it.
[01:11] <mathiaz> and it's clearly targeted toward desktop users (in which case I agree).
[01:11] <mathiaz> there is a small section about the command line changes.
[01:12] <mathiaz> and it hasn't been implemented yet.
[01:19] <leonel> is there any news about the  servers down  in ubuntu I mean   doc.ubuntu.com  and how got compromised ?
[01:20] <jpowermacg4> Anyone know the EASIEST!!! way to install a Postfix and Courier - Email System, Where I can make user accounts and actually log in?
[01:21] <leonel> jpowermacg4: http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_ubuntu_6.06
[01:21] <jpowermacg4> i did the one for 7.04
[01:21] <jpowermacg4> and it didn't work unfortunately
[01:21] <jpowermacg4> ISPConfig wasn't able to be installed
[01:21] <jpowermacg4> stupid php mod error
[01:23] <mathiaz> jpowermacg4: did you have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MailServer ?
[01:24] <jpowermacg4> nope... i looked at...
[01:24] <jpowermacg4> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PostfixVirtualMailBoxClamSmtpHowto
[01:24] <mathiaz> jpowermacg4: there is also the ubuntu server guide with a mail section: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/server/C/email-services.html
[01:24] <jpowermacg4> and
[01:24] <jpowermacg4> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PostfixCompleteVirtualMailSystemHowto
[01:24] <jpowermacg4> ok i'll try that last one mathiaz
[01:25] <jpowermacg4> lemme --purge all this stuff LOL
[01:27] <jpowermacg4> ok i'll try this and see.. looks like a diff setup.. hope this time it works.
[01:28] <mathiaz> jpowermacg4: give it a try. And you find some mistakes in the documents, don't hesitate to correct them.
[01:28] <mathiaz> jpowermacg4: these are wiki pages.
[01:29] <jpowermacg4> ok... i been trying.. i been looking at 6 articles so far.. only seen 1 i had to correct.. and then even then i didn't know nothing about the mysql i setup.. because the ubuntu wiki was lacking some info the other was.. so maybe this one for 7.04 work
[01:31] <jpowermacg4> Glad I'm setting this up on a deb system though... nothing like apt-get --purge remove postfix* courier* and whatever* and cleaning up /etc/ if anything left behind and starting fresh.. LOL
[01:33] <jpowermacg4> gosh.. already missing the /etc/postfix/sasl/smtpd.conf ... hmmm..
[01:34] <jpowermacg4> ok new file it is i guess
[02:02] <jbrouhard> howdy all
[02:45] <jpowermacg4> gosh the wiki sucked... LOL
[02:47] <jpowermacg4> Anyone know the EASIEST!!! way to install a Postfix and Courier - Email System, Where I can make user accounts and actually log in?
[03:07] <dthacker> jpowermacg4: There's a very easy howto on howtoforge.com.  If you wait a minute I'll grab you a link.
[03:09] <jpowermacg4> i've done that howto on that site
[03:09] <jpowermacg4> ISPConfig fails to install though
[03:10] <dthacker> http://www.howtoforge.com/virtual_postfix_mysql_quota_courier_ubuntu_edgy
[03:10] <Janet32766> anyone have any clues for me? ifconfig eth0 mtu 9000 #gives: SIOCSIFMTU: Invalid argument
[03:10] <jpowermacg4> i assume u running a postfix and courier?
[03:10] <dthacker> yep
[03:11] <dthacker> 6 virtual domains
[03:11] <jpowermacg4> ok maybe this one will work better than the one for ubuntu-server 7.04 with ISPConfig
[03:12] <jpowermacg4> dt.. i had did this whole thing.. http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_ubuntu704
[03:12] <jpowermacg4> but it failed on ISPConfig.. lol
[03:12] <jpowermacg4> so i purged it all
[03:12] <dthacker> what was ISP Config's problem?
[03:12] <jpowermacg4> mod php
[03:13] <dthacker> Janet32766: I'm googling....
[03:13] <jpowermacg4> said mod php not compatible with the system or something.. lol
[03:13] <dthacker> that's just a package and an apache edit.  Minor hacking
[03:13] <jpowermacg4> yeah.. but postfix didn't work at all when i did it.. lol
[03:14] <jpowermacg4> or anything at all
[03:14] <jpowermacg4> SMTP wasn't capable of sending a e-mail from telnet.. when i run the commands like MAIL FROM<EMAIL_ADDRESS>it never responded 250. LOL
[03:15] <jpowermacg4> i dunno what was up, with that.. but that so far is running now.... but obviously no users
[03:15] <dthacker> Janet32766: the mtu number could be out of range.   My eth0 is set to 1500 now and when I run that command with 1500 it returns without error.
[03:16] <jpowermacg4> janet .. you can't tell eth0 to give you a mtu of more than 1500
[03:16] <jpowermacg4> at least.. i havn't figured it out myself.
[03:16] <Janet32766> dthacker, maybe ubuntu didn't pick the best driver for my gigabit ethernet card.... thanks :)
[03:17] <jpowermacg4> janet are you getting mtu errors with 1500?
[03:17] <dthacker> Janet32766: could be.   Try a search for your card/driver combo in the forums.
[03:18] <Janet32766> 1500 works
[03:18] <Janet32766> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=101117
[03:21] <dthacker> Janet32766: yes, I've experienced that slowdown in production with a mismatched switch ;)
[03:21] <dthacker> are you using the same card as the forum author?
[03:22] <Janet32766> no, it is an integrated device in my dell server (broadcom)
[03:24] <dthacker> Janet32766: I'm afraid you're in for trial and error unless your research finds someone using your NIC successfully with a different driver.
[03:25] <dthacker> hmm, what would SLES do.  I've got a dell with that installed at work.
[03:27] <jpowermacg4> dthacker you here often?
[03:28] <jpowermacg4> i'm a little too busy to start the setup right now.. lol
[03:28] <dthacker> I stop by most evenings
[03:28] <jpowermacg4> cool.. hope to see you hear if it doesn't work.. lol
[03:29] <jpowermacg4> i think yours might work though.. it's 7 pages of e-mail setup.. lol.. or 6.. lol
[03:29] <dthacker> I'd post to the forums on howtoforge. they answered my questions within a day.
[03:30] <jpowermacg4> so did the setup pretty much fully set it up without any issues?
[03:31] <jpowermacg4> does it tell you how to setup the users and all that at least?
[03:32] <jpowermacg4> that info seems to be lacking from everything i've done.. lol
[03:35] <nealmcb> Janet32766: Thanks for a link to an interesting forum thread.  Exactly what device are you using (lspci -vv)?  you might want to post your experiences on the forum thread.
[03:39] <dthacker> jpowermacg4: Yes, it goes right into data entry through phpMyAdmin.
[03:40] <jpowermacg4> ok i've had one that did input to mysql.. but it was sloppy.. lol.. and didn't work at all with the info.. LOL.
[03:41] <jpowermacg4> i even installed squirrelmail to do a "localhost" type connection cause i thought it was blocking externels.. but was no help.. but it was a ubuntu wiki that's not accurate i did it from.
[03:42] <jpowermacg4> i do like this guys how to's though... so maybe his will work for this better.
[03:58] <Janet32766> nealmcb, it's a Broadcom 5754 NetXtreme, do you know how can i verify the tg3 driver is associated with this card?
[03:59] <nealmcb> Janet32766: the output of lspci -vvn may also be helpful
[03:59] <nealmcb> and do lsmod to see which modules are in use
[04:00] <nealmcb> dmesg may also be of use
[04:00] <Janet32766> lsmod shows tg3...
[04:14] <nealmcb> Janet32766: the howto was done with skge drivers - I don't suppose those work with your card??  But I'm afraid I don't have any of the above equipment and that's about all I can suggest - post to the forum and see if readers can help.
[05:19] <jpowermacg4> nice... Ex-Chat.. lol
[05:33] <ScottK> jpowermacg4: For Postfix setups, when I was first learning and still when I try something new, I find "The Book of Postfix" invaluable.
[05:55] <jpowermacg4> ScottK where is that located? and i'm just about to start this thing dthacker said
[05:57] <ScottK> jpowermacg4: The book's web site is here: http://www.postfix-book.com/ but it's an actual dead tree book.  It's also the best Postfix reference I've found yet.
[06:51] <etam> Does anyone have experience with DL360 G1 with DLT
[07:15] <etam> Does anyone have experience with DL360 G1 with DLT
[07:24] <ScottK> etam: This is the quietest period of the day for this channel.
[07:25] <ScottK> Trying again US AM/European PM is you best bet.
[07:27] <etam> Tks ScottK
[07:44] <jpowermacg4> dthacker you there?
[08:11] <kraut> moin
[08:50] <stiv2k> hey
[08:51] <stiv2k> what command can i use from within a PHP script to get the version numbers and status (up/down) of services like apache and such...?
[08:54] <coNP> Easiest way to dump everything is to invoke phpinfo()
[09:00] <stiv2k> nah but i mean
[09:00] <stiv2k> i want to make a page showing the version of apache, whether its up or down, then other services
[09:00] <stiv2k> like mysql, ircd, sshd
[09:00] <stiv2k> all the crap on my server
[09:00] <stiv2k> iirc, phpinfo() doesnt give all taht
[09:02] <coNP> stiv2k: if apache is down you won't get the page :)
[09:03] <stiv2k> yeah
[09:03] <stiv2k> but i just want to try and do it anyways
[09:04] <coNP> You might work with external calls.  You can also use some ad-hoc diagnosis (e.g., telnet to the specific port) or base your results on an existing monitoring tool (e.g. munin is simple and straightforward). I would use the latter.
[09:09] <infinity> apache2ctl status, mysqladmin version, sshd has no status reporting, so just a ps | grep might be all you've got there (and a test if port 22 is open), same with ircd.
[09:10] <infinity> mysqladmin version can dump stuff like:
[09:10] <infinity> Server version          4.0.20-log
[09:10] <infinity> Protocol version        10
[09:10] <infinity> Connection              Localhost via UNIX socket
[09:10] <infinity> UNIX socket             /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock
[09:10] <infinity> Uptime:                 799 days 9 min 31 sec
[09:10] <infinity> Threads: 1  Questions: 30101170  Slow queries: 2023  Opens: 195335  Flush tables: 1  Open tables: 64  Queries per second avg: 0.436
[09:11] <juliux> morning
[11:45] <ivoks> man, aren't we blind, or what... :)
[11:45] <ivoks> we have partman-auto-raid already in ubuntu
[11:45] <ivoks> just, it's in universe :/
[11:49] <fabbione> ivoks: it's only raid preseeding afaik
[11:50] <ivoks> recipe for partman
[11:50] <ivoks> this is what was requested at last meeting
[02:41] <coNP> Hey! I did some security patches for lighttpd.
[02:41] <coNP> Anyone running dapper / edgy / feisty and lighttpd please help test them.
[02:42] <coNP> Debdiffs for these targets are available (bug 127718)
[02:42] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 127718 in lighttpd "lighttpd security fixes" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/127718
[06:12] <Elazar> I'm trying to configure MySQL such that the lower_case_table_names setting is 2. I've tried creating a custom file in /etc/mysql/conf.d, I've tried editing the my.cnf file directly, and I've restarted mysql after each attempt, but it just doesn't seem to see the setting change. Any suggestions?
[07:17] <ekimus> hello, i'm on 6.06 LTS normally using debian. now i need a mailer that can send to my smarthost. nullmailer is what I use normall but that is broken any hints?
[07:18] <ekimus> s/normall/normally
[07:19] <ScottK> Postfix can be configured to send through a smarthost, but may be overkill in your case.
[07:20] <ekimus> that is why i normally use nullmailer. our 3 postfixes are configured properly and i just would like some simple mta that i don't have to care about...
[07:22] <ScottK> IIRC sending through a smarthost is one of the Debian config options and so trivially easy to configure (unlike more complex Postfix setups).
[07:22] <ekimus> hmm msmtp doesn't provie mail-transport-agent. that would brake a hell lot of dependencies....
[07:31] <ekimus> ha! ssmtp seems to work... now i gotta wait until all the cronjobs run to see how it behaves with a lot of messages.
[07:31] <ekimus> thanks anyway...
[07:40] <Elazar> I'm trying to configure MySQL such that the lower_case_table_names setting is 2. I've tried creating a custom file in /etc/mysql/conf.d, I've tried editing the my.cnf file directly, and I've restarted mysql after each attempt, but it just doesn't seem to see the setting change. Any suggestions?
[08:32] <stiv2k> what commands can i use to fetch the version of certain packages (like, have it return ONLY the version number in the result) and a way to check the status of certain services running on the machine?


[09:14] <thrustcore> jelmer: how can I ignore the file?
[11:49] <jelmer> thrustcore:  "bzr ignore FILENAME"
[11:52] <thrustcore> thanks jelmer :) that's exactly what I wanted
[11:52] <thrustcore> jelmer: now it says These files will continue to be version controlled unless you 'bzr remove' them. to the file I ignored though, is that right?
[11:55] <spiv> thrustcore: right, "bzr ignore" doesn't provide a way to have a file be both versioned *and* locally modified.
[11:55] <thrustcore> spiv: is there any way to do it?
[11:55] <spiv> Not built-in.
[11:56] <spiv> In principle it's something that could be added, but the bzr core doesn't have that concept so it'd likely be a pain to write a plugin to do it.
[11:56] <thrustcore> what's the plugin language for bzr
[11:56] <spiv> PYthon
[11:57] <thrustcore> how do bzr plugins work?
[11:57] <spiv> (There's also the UI challenge of adding yet another state a file can be in)
[11:57] <thrustcore> I don't use the UI
[11:57] <spiv> The "bzr" command line tool is still a UI :)
[11:57] <jelmer> thrustcore: I think spiv also means the command line UI :)
[11:57] <thrustcore> ah, indeed
[11:58] <spiv> The best description of how plugins work is in the docs.  It'll be more complete and more accurate than I can describe on IRC :)
[11:58] <spiv> Probably clearer too ;)
[11:58] <thrustcore> all right then
[11:58] <thrustcore> honest opinion, should writing such a plugin take more than 2 hours?
[11:59] <spiv> If you're unfamiliar with bzrlib, I'd expect so unfortunately.
[11:59] <spiv> (If you were, I reckon it'd be borderline; something hackish but sufficient for you might be possible in that time.)
[11:59] <thrustcore> fair enough :)
[12:00] <spiv> Probably a commit hook of some sort.
[12:00] <spiv> But it'd probably need to do funny things with the WorkingTree objects passed through that hook.
[12:00] <thrustcore> yeah, if I weren't using bzr as a part of my job I would probably just edit the source myself
[12:00] <thrustcore> to just change the single place where it's committed
[13:37] <davidbutler> hello
[13:38] <davidbutler> I am trying to figure out how to get bzr integration wtih KDE’s dolphin, it seemed to work on a previous installation of ubuntu, but it doesn’t seem to work this time… I apt-get installed the plugin, do I need to do anything else to enable it?
[13:46] <davidbutler> i solved my issue, btw


[03:52] <mgalvin> hi all!
[03:54] <mgalvin> hey just a heads up, i started writing up a review of flight 2 in case anyone is interested
[03:54] <mgalvin> i will probably put it on the wiki soon
[03:54] <mgalvin> i'll post a link when its set, please feel free to add to it if you like
[03:55] <mgalvin> unless..., did anyone already start one?
[03:56] <jsgotangco> flight 2 is out?
[03:56] <mgalvin> no but i am starting to prep the review, it will be very "Soon"
[03:56] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[03:56] <mgalvin> nothing huge, just an overview and some screenshots and such
[03:57] <mgalvin> thought it would be nice to have an overview of improvement and such to go along with the release
[03:58] <jsgotangco> like we really have a cool usplash...
[03:59] <mgalvin> yup! i already have a screenshot of it :)
[05:00] <mgalvin> good night all
[05:00] <mgalvin> here is the flight 2 overview i started in case anyone wants to add anything
[05:00] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
[05:01] <mgalvin> either way, i will finish more of it in the am
[05:01] <mgalvin> later
[05:02] <LaserJock> cya
[05:59] <LaserJock> hi bhuvan
[06:33] <bhuvan> LaserJock, hello
[06:35] <LaserJock> bhuvan: you just became a Ubuntu member not long ago, right?
[06:37] <bhuvan> yes
[06:37] <LaserJock> how long did it take to get svn commit access?
[06:37] <bhuvan> almost 15 days
[06:38] <LaserJock> did you have to do anything? except wait ;-)
[06:38] <bhuvan> in my case, i guess, i happen to become ubuntu member to get svn commit access
[06:39] <LaserJock> me too, at last CC meeting
[06:39] <bhuvan> jsgotangco & mdke had issues getting svn access fo non-member. i become member, thus they were able to get it done with ease
[06:39] <bhuvan> you, yeah i know, i remember recommending you that day :)
[06:40] <bhuvan> i hope you forgot that fact :) :)
[06:41] <jsgotangco> its much easier to approve commit access to a member
[06:41] <jsgotangco> because elmo itself manages the keys and the servers
[06:41] <LaserJock> I don't remeber a lot of the CC meeting. Things were moving fast and it was 6:00 am for me
[06:42] <bhuvan> LaserJock, ok
[06:42] <LaserJock> itself? hmm, I always new he was a bot ;-)
[06:42] <LaserJock> I just wondered if I needed to email him or something
[06:43] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, hahaha..sorry that was a slipup
[06:43] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: but a funny one
[06:44] <jsgotangco> when i first started in ubuntu last year, everyone was saying elmo please sync, elmo please do that...
[06:44] <jsgotangco> in my mind i thought elmo was a chat triggered bot that synced
[06:44] <jsgotangco> hehe
[06:44] <LaserJock> yeah, makes sense
[06:54] <Madpilot> hi all
[06:55] <LaserJock> hi Madpilot
[06:59] <Madpilot> hmm... just realized that BitTorrent isn't mentioned at all in the Peer-to-Peer section of the Desktop Guide - despite the fact that it's the only p2p service included in Ubuntu by default - I'll have to get something written for that...
[06:59] <LaserJock> lol
[07:02] <Madpilot> tonight I'm full of good food and too much beer (staff Christmas party) :)
[07:02] <LaserJock> I'm trying to finish the last homework of my college career
[07:03] <Madpilot> getting that done will feel good, I bet
[07:03] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[07:03] <jsgotangco> make should work
[07:03] <jsgotangco> but it doesn
[07:03] <jsgotangco> t
[07:03] <LaserJock> I guess, after 8 years it will be nice to not have homework
[07:05] <LaserJock> Friday will be my last final too, that will be even better :-)
[07:33] <jsgotangco> gahhh stupid me i forgot to install make
[07:33] <LaserJock> lol, that will do it
[07:33] <rob1> LaserJock, you were looking for me?
[07:34] <LaserJock> rob1: hmm, was I. I can't remember anymore
[07:34] <jsgotangco> hey rob1 where in au are you at?
[07:34] <rob1> 0404| LaserJock rob1: still around?
[07:34] <rob1> Townsville
[07:34] <LaserJock> maybe it was about yelp on dapper
[07:34] <rob1> about 1000km north
[07:35] <LaserJock> a bit of a drive ;-)
[07:35] <jsgotangco> ugghhh
[07:35] <rob1> only an hour and a half by plane
[07:35] <rob1> if that
[07:36] <Madpilot> speaking of Yelp - is it going to acquire a search function anytime soon?
[07:36] <jsgotangco> if the patches submitted are applied
[07:37] <LaserJock> rob1: anyway, I think you can disregard my ping. My yelp crashes for some reason, but it seems to just be my box
[07:37] <rob1> yelp is pretty dodgy
[07:38] <rob1> my dapper upgrade on my laptop went pretty good, a few bugs but a lot more stable then breezy was
[07:38] <LaserJock> well, I have dapper chroot and it works in that so I'm not too bothered by it
[07:39] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, its a known issue
[07:39] <LaserJock> it's just that it is the only program I know of that renders docboook
[07:40] <rob1> jsgotangco, the fact that its dodgy, or the search function?
[07:40] <rob1> heh
[07:40] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:41] <LaserJock> I still don't get why it renders xml so much slower than html
[07:41] <jsgotangco> conglomerate is getting much better though
[07:41] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, because it does some voodoo css on its own
[07:41] <rob1> hmm sf.net has had a face lift
[07:41] <jsgotangco> for some reason, even that is slow
[07:42] <LaserJock> yeah, I tried conglomerate  out the other day. Kinda confusing to me. Right now it is easier for me to just turn it into html
[07:42] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:43] <rob1> it has such an ugly name
[07:43] <jsgotangco> for some people i work with, they seem to like conglomerate
[07:43] <jsgotangco> it still doesn't render correctly, but its a minor issue
[07:44] <LaserJock> I probably just need to try it more.
[07:45] <LaserJock> so there really isn't an alternative to yelp? or am I just missing something
[07:45] <jsgotangco> yelp is the gnome help viewer - jdub
[07:45] <jsgotangco> :D
[07:46] <LaserJock> but if I just want to render some .xml files quickly?
[07:46] <rob1> yet, that same line of reasoning didn't stop them creating gai when synaptic does the job much better
[07:47] <rob1> but hey, who am I to disagree with a developer?
[07:47] <jsgotangco> rob1, synaptic is a different animal that has a different use for Ubuntu while gai is a complete turnaround to synpatic's supposed complexity
[07:48] <rob1> but yet, its limited, redundant and therefor useless
[07:48] <jsgotangco> that's your personal opinion as a user and does not reflect the opinion of the general users
[07:49] <Madpilot> rob1: but it's (slightly) less scary than Synaptic, for some people...
[07:49] <jsgotangco> as documentation/technical writers, we don't have the liberty of expressing personal opinion
[07:49] <rob1> not my decision really
[07:49] <rob1> yep
[07:49] <jsgotangco> (in writing btw)
[07:50] <Madpilot> the only time I use GAI is to check what's included there or not...
[07:51] <jsgotangco> actually i use gai
[07:51] <jsgotangco> i like the bling it provides
[07:51] <rob1> I use aptitude in a shell
[07:51] <LaserJock> I think it is kinda cool, but I think that it would have been better to have  basic/advanced modes of synaptic or something like that
[07:52] <Madpilot> LaserJock: you can actually launch Synaptic from GAI for advanced installs
[07:52] <LaserJock> Madpilot: right, I would like it reversed, in Synaptica have an easy button
[07:52] <rob1> no gui crap to get in the way, but if I was to use the graphical tools I'd use synaptic over gai for sure
[07:52] <jsgotangco> we eat our own dog food
[07:52] <LaserJock> having all these install tools does make it a bit more difficult to write about
[07:53] <Burgundavia> rob1, no, I don't have ops on #ubuntu
[07:53] <rob1> Burgundavia, yeah never mind, I got hold of crimsun
[07:54] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: wasn't that question asked about 24 hours ago?:P
[07:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, something like that
[07:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, I don't turn my computer off if I am at C's
[07:54] <LaserJock> I had a lengthy conversation with -motu about what to use in the Packaging Guide, we ended up deciding not to say anything ;-)
[07:54] <rob1> we just had users from toronto complaining to us about it
[07:56] <rob1> a dodgy ban that was set
[07:56] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, rightfully so, people who are reading a packaging guide should already know what to use really
[07:57] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: that's what we decided. But there are some interesting things that come up between using aptitude and apt-get
[07:57] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: aptitude installs Recommends by default whereas apt-get doesn't
[07:57] <jsgotangco> yeah and aptitude/apt discussion is a totally different beast heh
[07:58] <rob1> see http://os.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=42537&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&tid=2&tid=130&pid=0
[07:59] <rob1> theres 9 reasons on there why you should be using aptitude over apt-get
[08:00] <rob1> actually, this ones better:   http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Debian/2004-04/3181.html
[08:00] <jsgotangco> yes
[08:00] <jsgotangco> its often advised to use aptitude in a dist-upgrade scenario
[08:01] <LaserJock> yeah, but for me the UI was confusing enough that it took me a long time to want to use it
[08:02] <LaserJock> the Recommends by default thing is slightly concerning. You can issue the same command in apt-get and aptitude and get different results
[08:02] <rob1> sure, but you can turn it off
[08:02] <LaserJock> yeah, but you have to tell all the newbs that :-)
[08:03] <rob1> and I typically want the recommended packages anyway :)
[08:03] <LaserJock> me too
[08:04] <rob1> jsgotangco, are you going to Sydney when you come over here?
[08:04] <jsgotangco> rob1, i might drop by, i want to go to sydney again and feel the heat
[08:04] <rob1> heh heat
[08:04] <rob1> there has been three nights of riots there
[08:05] <jsgotangco> wah?
[08:05] <rob1> huge groups of lebs and white surfer types kicking each others butts
[08:05] <rob1> and anyone who is unlucky enough to be outside when they pass
[08:06] <rob1> and the police are mostly useless
[08:06] <jsgotangco> well i could agree with the police being useless
[08:07] <rob1> pretty bad stuff, out police can't use non leathal weapons apart from mase and battons
[08:07] <rob1> so umm, if you go there don't leave the airport :)
[08:08] <rob1> there are streets worth of cars getting smashed up, businesses etc
[08:08] <jsgotangco> arggh
[08:08] <jsgotangco> just like paris
[08:08] <rob1> yeah
[08:09] <rob1> they are tipping more riots tonight too
[08:12] <rob1> I saw a well put together mock up of a GTA case, GTA:BB (Bondi Beach)
[08:12] <jsgotangco> haha
[08:12] <jsgotangco> i guess it sucks to go to bondi this time of the year
[08:13] <rob1> ah well the weather is pretty good.. the locals are not.
[07:56] <mdke> evening
[07:57] <Burgwork> salut
[07:57] <Burgwork> have you seen the linus-flame yet?
[07:57] <mdke> not yet, been too busy
[07:58] <LaserJock> the Gnome one?
[07:58] <Burgwork> yep
[07:58] <LaserJock> reading right now
[07:58] <LaserJock> quite interesting
[07:58] <Burgwork> Linus was a fool
[07:59] <mdke> he's an odd chap, certainly
[07:59] <Burgwork> I am not a fan of KDE personally but I can disconnect that from supporting KDE
[07:59] <LaserJock> He sure made his point "Any Gnome people who argue that it's about "usability" have their heads up
[08:00] <LaserJock> their asses so far that it's not funny."
[08:00] <Burgwork> with BIG BOLD CAPS
[08:00] <Burgwork> JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED THAT GNOME USERS ARE IDIOTS
[08:00] <LaserJock> although, I agree with a lot of what he is getting at
[08:00] <LaserJock> He seemed pretty rude about it
[08:00] <Burgwork> usability is a very nebulous concept
[08:01] <LaserJock> yes
[08:01] <Burgwork> looks great from 30k feet but needs more concrete action and usecases from the ground
[08:01] <Burgwork> that is what is missing on the usability mailing list most of the time
[08:02] <Burgwork> Jeff Waugh "None of this discussion has impacted the healthy working relationship
[08:02] <Burgwork>   that the desktop developers have built, despite the dim white noise of
[08:02] <Burgwork>   users beating each other to a pulp in the background."
[08:02] <LaserJock> but I agree that you can have options for advanced user while keeping things simple
[08:02] <LaserJock> that has been the biggest problem I have had with Gnome
[08:03] <Burgwork> from watching my work mates use Fedora core at work (all are windows users at home), I would say that fixing bugs is more important
[08:03] <Burgwork> they don't much care about options
[08:04] <Burgwork> in fact, only 2 of the 6 of us have customized our desktops
[08:04] <Burgwork> one moved the top bar to the bottom and removed the bottom bar and I added more workspaces and the task monitor
[08:04] <Burgwork> IE: good defaults and thus good policy matter
[08:05] <jjesse> i was trying to show my boss kubuntu and things crashed, three or four times and was like "sometimes that happens"
[08:05] <LaserJock> I would think that they would though, if they could.  It was a lot easier in KDE
[08:05] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I seriously doubt it
[08:05] <Burgwork> LaserJock, moving a panel or adding things to it is pretty easy and yet they don't do it
[08:06] <LaserJock> hmm, to be honest, that seems silly
[08:06] <Burgwork> most power users fail to realize that most non-power users don't change defaults
[08:06] <Burgwork> it took me a long time to accept that to
[08:06] <Burgwork> s/to/too
[08:06] <LaserJock> I do the same thing, but that is because I can't get Gnome to do anything the way I want it too?
[08:07] <Burgwork> but you try and fail
[08:07] <jjesse> i think Burgwork was right when he said fixing bugs should be more important then making thing s look prettier
[08:07] <Burgwork> they don't even try because they don't care
[08:07] <LaserJock> I just find it is harder to work in Gnome, but then I am somewhat more used to KDE
[08:07] <jjesse> i wish the smae thing was true for MS as well, make things work better then wasting time on making things look prettier
[08:08] <LaserJock> jjesse: well, sometimes it's not just prettier, it is usability
[08:08] <LaserJock> although most of the time it is just eye candy :-)
[08:10] <LaserJock> I do wish KDE worked better in Ubuntu
[08:11] <LaserJock> anyway, I am slowly conforming to the Gnome way of life
[08:11] <Burgwork> LaserJock, bug riddel is something doesn't work
[08:11] <Burgwork> LaserJock, he and Mark are keen to make Kubuntu the best KDE desktop on the planet
[08:12] <LaserJock> yeah, I was thinking of installing KDE today. Getting kinda bored with just plain old dapper
[08:12] <LaserJock> I really like Gnome though too
[08:13] <LaserJock> I just wish they could have something like "Advanced" tabs or something
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil
[08:13] <LaserJock> really? How so?
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, if you can create a good usecase for something that bugs you, the gnome people are happy to accept that
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil because they mess with peoples minds
[08:14] <Burgwork> people don't click them because they don't think they are advanced enough or do because they think they are
[08:14] <Burgwork> either way, it is not task driven
[08:14] <Burgwork> tabs labelled for what is actually on them is better
[08:14] <LaserJock> hmm, I just seems like you can have lots of options, but in a user friendly way
[08:16] <LaserJock> I didn't think KDE's setup was bad at all
[08:16] <Burgwork> questions need answer
[08:16] <Burgwork> s
[08:16] <jjesse> apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
[08:16] <jjesse> how can it get easier ?
[08:16] <LaserJock> jjesse: doing it as we speak
[08:16] <Burgwork> ergo, if you ask a user a question, you need to make certain they have the information to be able to make an informed choice on that answer
[08:17] <Burgwork> hence why Ubuntu has nothing in the install about KDE vs Gnome
[08:17] <Burgwork> we simply cannot provide enough information in the installer for the user to make an informed  choice
[08:17] <jjesse> but it shouldn't it would just complicate things
[08:17] <Burgwork> but we can ask them what  their name is
[08:18] <LaserJock> I like the Gnome look and feel, but the KDE configurability
[08:18] <Burgwork> LaserJock, sometimes options are simply left off not through deliberate design choice, but merely not having enough time to figure out how to do it well
[08:19] <LaserJock> yeah, it can't be easy
[08:19] <LaserJock> anway, I think my biggest problems are with Metacity rather the Gnome itself
[08:20] <LaserJock> although the gnome-menu is kinda a problem to me
[08:21] <LaserJock> it keeps getting smaller and smaller. I just can't see how it is more usable to not be able to find applications
[08:22] <Burgwork> the end goal is not WIMP but task and document driven
[08:22] <Burgwork> there are going to be bumps along that road
[08:22] <LaserJock> WIMP?
[08:23] <Burgwork> window, icon, menu, pointing device
[08:23] <Burgwork> the current Windows, KDE and Gnome way to doing things
[08:23] <Burgwork> OS X is sort of a hybrid with its roots in WIMP
[08:25] <LaserJock> how does that work with having more than one app that can do a task?
[08:26] <Burgwork> you should never  have more than one app that can do a task
[08:27] <LaserJock> that seems really weird, to be honest
[08:27] <LaserJock> who decides what app does what
[08:28] <Burgwork> the distro vendor
[08:28] <Burgwork> and you, if you change it
[08:28] <LaserJock> I have many apps that do the same thing, except some are better at some things than others
[08:28] <Burgwork> but again, most users will never change the default
[08:28] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you and I are not common computer users
[08:28] <LaserJock> I don't think that matters
[08:29] <LaserJock> My brother, a total computer newb, just went to buy photoediting software
[08:29] <LaserJock> he had many choices
[08:29] <Burgwork> how did make his decision?
[08:30] <LaserJock> he looked at a bunch of options
[08:30] <LaserJock> read the descriptions
[08:30] <Burgwork> a decision that he really actually didn't want to amek
[08:30] <LaserJock> sure he did
[08:30] <LaserJock> how would he know what he was getting otherwise
[08:30] <Burgwork> nope, he wanted photoediting software
[08:31] <LaserJock> no, he had specific tasks he wanted to be able to do
[08:31] <Burgwork> if his "distro", in this case windows, already came with what he needed, he would not have  needed to make that decision
[08:31] <LaserJock> some photoediting software did his tasks better than others
[08:31] <LaserJock> it did, but it didn't do the tasks he wanted as well as he wanted
[08:32] <Burgwork> users only buy software because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to
[08:32] <LaserJock> but how is he supposed to make an informed decision if he doesn't even know what he has
[08:32] <jjesse> i disagree, i buy software (games) that i want
[08:32] <LaserJock> in a perfect world with perfect software sure
[08:32] <Burgwork> jjesse, that is slightly different
[08:33] <Burgwork> regardless, if his distro had shipped good photoediting software, such as the GIMP and Fspot, he would not  have needed to make any decision
[08:33] <jjesse> i bought photo elements from adobe because i wanted some photo editing software without shelling out the big books for photo shop
[08:34] <LaserJock> jjesse: my brother almost got photo elements but there was another program that did what he wanted better
[08:34] <jjesse> so he bought the one he wanted to
[08:34] <Burgwork> he bought the one that he though could do the job that he needed to do
[08:34] <LaserJock> The thing is, I just don't see how a distro can "pick" software for the user and then make it difficult for them to get anything else
[08:34] <jjesse> Burgwork: what if fspot or gimp didn't do what he wanted or didn't come with easy to read documentation/tutorials to teach him
[08:34] <Burgwork> LaserJock, that is a straw man attack
[08:35] <Burgwork> I never said I wanted to make it difficult to get other software
[08:35] <Burgwork> I just said that you need to ship good default software
[08:35] <LaserJock> that is what I was talking about though
[08:35] <LaserJock> the menus make it difficult to get new software
[08:35] <Burgwork> if you do the latter, the former becomes less necessary
[08:35] <LaserJock> because you don't know what you have or what it is called if it is all about the tasks and not about the apps
[08:35] <Burgwork> umm "Add Applications?"
[08:36] <Burgwork> LaserJock, most people think "I need to edit a photo", not "I need to use the GIMP"
[08:36] <jjesse> Burgwork: but why does what a distro define as good software then become what fits my needs
[08:36] <Burgwork> jjesse, because the distro can employ smart people to figure how people work
[08:36] <Burgwork> and what they need
[08:36] <LaserJock> but that seems to stiffle OSS
[08:36] <Burgwork> to be honest, users are great at telling you waht they want. They are very bad at telling you how to get what they want
[08:37] <LaserJock> that is the way MS took
[08:37] <Burgwork> LaserJock, actually, no
[08:37] <Burgwork> thhat is approach apple took
[08:37] <LaserJock> either way, I don't see how it does any good to OSS and the linux community
[08:37] <Burgwork> MS took the "cram everything into everything to try and satisfy everybody"
[08:38] <LaserJock> that is what you will have to do
[08:38] <LaserJock> I just don't see how you can put people in general in that tight of a box
[08:39] <LaserJock> certain segments, certainly (gamers, graphics design, programmers, etc.)
[08:39] <LaserJock> but the population at large, I just can't see it
[08:40] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm not totally against what you are saying Burgwork, I just can't see how it would work better than what we have now
[08:41] <LaserJock> If we had lots of time to study users and we had perfect apps, your right, no one would need to install 5 apps to do the same task.
[08:41] <LaserJock> but the fact remains that people even do the same task in different ways that different apps will do better than others
[08:41] <LaserJock> take vim vs. emacs for instance
[08:42] <LaserJock> they are both extremely good editors
[08:42] <LaserJock> they pretty much do the same tasks
[08:42] <LaserJock> but because people edit in different ways, each will have its users
[08:43] <LaserJock> so in order to not alienate people it seems that you should have both fairly easily available
[08:43] <LaserJock> mdke: sorry
[08:43] <LaserJock> althogh I kinda think this is relevent
[08:43] <mdke> no apology necessary
[08:44] <LaserJock> I'm just trying to figure out how users work and how linux relates to them
[08:44] <LaserJock> and hopefully right documentation that helps them
[08:44] <LaserJock> s/right/write/
[08:45] <LaserJock> Burgwork has brought up some interesting ideas for me to think about
[08:45] <LaserJock> maybe I will just think to myself for a while ;-)
[08:46] <mgalvin> hey guys, speaking of writting, this is far from done, but can anyone think of any other good points to make here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
[09:06] <LaserJock> hmm, KDE does seem to have improved, although they still stick Science apps in Edutainment :(
[09:08] <mdke> mgalvin, blimey, cool
[09:08] <mgalvin> hey mdke: glad you like it so far :)
[09:09] <mdke> nice to see you writing again :D
[09:09] <LaserJock> mgalvin: is Firefox 1.5 final?
[09:09] <mdke> its rc3
[09:10] <mgalvin> yea, i'll try and contrib some more again where i can
[09:10] <mgalvin> the version in dapper is not the final yet
[09:10] <mgalvin> 1.5 finial will most likely be post flight 2
[09:11] <mdke> yes
[09:23] <mgalvin> mdke: do you think it woould be best host the flight 2 overview on (d|h).u.c
[09:28] <jjesse> when does flight 2 come out?
[09:29] <mgalvin> the universal... "Soon" is what I was told :)
[09:30] <mgalvin> they wanted to release it last week, so any day now i would imagine
[09:38] <jjesse> riddell mentioned that now that kubuntu-desktop is building kubuntu flight 2 should be out "soon" as well
[09:46] <mgalvin> cool
[10:10] <mdke> mgalvin, certainly not if it will be slashdotted ;)
[10:11] <mgalvin> :)
[10:11] <mdke> mgalvin, ubuntu.com might work better, that is where usual release notes are found, along with the wiki
[10:11] <mdke> i think just wiki might be the way forward actually
[10:12] <mgalvin> ok, is there someplace I could store the images (other than my server)?
[10:12] <mdke> mgalvin, upload them to the wiki
[10:12] <mgalvin> ok, i will just do that then
[10:12] <mdke> More Actions -> Attachments
[10:12] <mgalvin> thnx
[10:23] <Burgwork> mgalvin, doc.ubuntu.com might be a place we can consider for this sort of thing
[10:25] <mgalvin> ok, well, i guess we can make a finial decision on where it will live once it is all done
[10:27] <Burgwork> we should build a common framework so all the needs to be changed is the words and the screenshots
[10:28] <mdke> Burgwork, well the stable releases aren't even there...
[10:28] <mdke> and if it get's slashdotted that server will go down
[10:28] <mdke> it already struggles with the bandwidth on help.u
[10:29] <mdke> wtf do I always put an apostrophe in "get's"
[10:29] <mdke> ugghn
[10:31] <LaserJock> for some reason I am using a lot more ,s and 's since using irc
[10:33] <mgalvin> Burgwork: sure, I can look at making it generic after I finish it
[10:33] <Burgwork> mgalvin, look at the quicktour stuff
[10:33] <Burgwork> mdke, hmm, that is a problem
[10:33] <mgalvin> hey how to I properly get one attached image to link to another attached image
[10:33] <mdke> Burgwork, yes
[10:34] <mdke> mgalvin, HelpOnAttachments
[10:34] <mdke> or something
[10:34] <mdke> hang on
[10:34] <mdke> HelpOnActions/AttachFile
[10:38] <mdke> Burgwork, we'll work on getting help.u on a canonical server soonish
[10:50] <mgalvin> i must be retarted, i can't seem to get one attachment to display AND act as a link to another attachment, is there an example of this somewhere (all the help pages don't mention it)
[10:51] <mdke> mgalvin, i don't know if its possible actually
[10:51] <mgalvin> i can get them to display on their own just fine, but not get one to act as a link to another
[10:51] <mgalvin> hmm
[10:51] <mdke> i seem to remember trying once and not succeeding
[10:51] <mdke> there are macros that you can use, but I don't know if they are installed on our server
[10:52] <Burgwork> moin needs some serious love to handle attachments better
[10:52] <mgalvin> seems like i need to add that to the moin wish list
[10:52] <mdke> mgalvin, as I say, there are Macros, just not on our wiki :(
[10:53] <mgalvin> :(, oh well
[10:53] <mgalvin> hmm, i want to try something
[10:53] <jeffsch> maybe instead of "Click the thumbnail for the full size screenshot" have "Click here for the full size screenshot"
[10:53] <mdke> you tried [attachment:Targetfile.png attachment:Displayfile.png] ?
[10:54] <mdke> oh hi jeffsch!
[10:54] <jeffsch> howdy
[10:54] <mdke> how are you?
[10:54] <jeffsch> pretty good. exams are over.
[10:54] <jeffsch> and you?
[10:54] <mdke> very well thanks
[10:55] <mdke> hope the exams went well
[10:55] <mgalvin> mdke: i tried that, no go
[10:55] <mgalvin> hey jeff
[10:55] <jeffsch> hi matt
[10:56] <mgalvin> jeffsch: I might just have to go with that, seems there is no other way :(
[10:56] <mgalvin> other than hosting the images somewhere other than "in" the wiki, like i am not
[10:56] <jeffsch> oh well. it's not fancy, but it works
[10:56] <mgalvin> s/not/now/
[10:57] <mgalvin> maybe we could just store just the images on d.u.c for now, not idea, but also not on my server ;)
[10:57] <mgalvin> s/idea/ideal/
[10:57] <mdke> hmm
[10:58] <mdke> i don't mind
[10:58] <mdke> but jeffsch's idea looks relatively sane
[10:58] <mgalvin> it would distribute the load a bit more too
[10:58] <mgalvin> yes it does
[10:58] <mdke> you'd have the word [here]  linking to an attachment, obviously
[10:58] <mgalvin> yup
[10:58] <mgalvin> i'll set it up that way for now and see how it looks
[10:59] <mdke> ok
[10:59] <jeffsch> mdke: that's how my doctors describe me: "relatively sane" :)
[10:59] <mdke> jeffsch, only to your face
[10:59] <mdke> :)
[10:59] <jeffsch> :-)
[10:59] <mgalvin> hehe :)
[10:59] <mdke> we should be getting a new ubuntu-docs in breezy soonish
[10:59] <mdke> just waiting on the upload
[11:03] <mgalvin> time to head home
[11:03] <mgalvin> later all
[11:03] <jeffsch> cya
[11:03] <mdke> night