[01:00] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New source: show-in-file-manager (jammy-proposed/primary) [1.1.4-0ubuntu1]
[02:29] <Eickmeyer> ubuntu-archive: Can someone reject show-in-file-manager in jammy NEW? I forgot the manpage.
[09:48] <LocutusOfBorg> hello, can anybody please move pybind11 to big-instances for ppc64el?
[09:49] <LocutusOfBorg> the autopkgtest is failing but not locally
[09:49] <LocutusOfBorg> [100%] Built target cross_module_gil_utils
[09:49] <LocutusOfBorg> make[1]: Leaving directory '/tests-python3.9'
[09:50] <LocutusOfBorg> vorlon, please? loook my output
[09:50] <LocutusOfBorg> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/qPWcVxpb9b/
[09:51] <LocutusOfBorg> please don't look at qemu illegal instruction, its ppc64el over amd64, and qemu sucks in that case :D
[13:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: fenics-dolfinx [amd64] (jammy-proposed/universe) [1:0.3.0-13] (no packageset)
[17:41] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: gcc-12-cross-ports [amd64] (jammy-proposed/universe) [1ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[18:08] <vorlon> LocutusOfBorg: wrt vkd3d, I note that Debian has not yet taken a decision that this package is releasable without s390x support
[18:37] <Eickmeyer> vorlon: If you're still around, can you reject show-in-file-manager in the NEW queue? I have another version to upload which actually packages the manpage.
[19:05] <LocutusOfBorg> and for pybind11?


[01:36] <Eickmeyer[m]> Also the focus will be switching to getting UI stuff polished. Got some thumbnails and stuff to work on.
[06:21] <cjdg> ok
[06:21] <cjdg> i been a fan of ubuntustudio for years
[06:22] <cjdg> so will start testing 23.04
[22:41] <Eickmeyer> sort


[00:26] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: I was told you were the person to talk to about iso building?
[00:28] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: ISO?
[00:28] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: livedvd
[00:28] <falktx_> I can build a custom ISO, not official ones
[00:28] <falktx_> yes
[00:30] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: do you base then off of an official ISO?
[00:31] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: no, build from scratch
[00:44] <falktx_> sorry I was busy
[00:44] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: what do you need?
[00:45] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: I am trying to figure out how to build a LiveDVD
[00:45] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: I have a script for it
[00:45] <falktx_> ScottL: do you still have the notes I wrote for you about the ISO script?
[00:49] <GTRSDK|busy> I am currently trying to build a LiveDVD by editing files and adding some
[00:57] <GTRSDK|busy> I need to set up ubiquity
[00:59] <falktx_> the ubuntu docs have good info about that
[00:59] <falktx_> my script is based on that
[01:00] <GTRSDK|busy> because there is no ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntustudio , correct?
[02:42] <ScottL> falktx_, i do have the notes
[02:43] <ScottL> astraljava, you are probably right about a livedvd and trying to maintain double the number of images
[02:43] <ScottL> astraljava, perhaps we should do a "community" maintaind livedvd that we create manually after canonical release
[02:43] <ScottL> we could host it on sourcrforge or something
[02:45] <falktx_> ScottL: I can host it
[02:45] <falktx_> sourceforge kxstudio though, if that's ok
[02:46] <falktx_> not sure...
[02:46] <ScottL> at this point we need to create it first ;) then we can wory about where it's hosted
[03:02] <falktx_> yep
[07:02] <shnatsel> Hey everybody
[07:02] <shnatsel> I've explored the edubuntu ubiquity patch
[07:02] <shnatsel> it will work for us, it's very easy to adapt
[07:02] <GTRSDK|busy> shnatsel: what is the patch about?
[07:03] <shnatsel> GTRSDK|busy: installing only the components selected by the user during installation
[07:03] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: usual ubiquity doesn't have it while debian-installer has
[07:04] <shnatsel> the way debian-installer implements it has always driven me nuts, though
[07:04] <shnatsel> the keyboard controls are absolutely non-intuitive and I always skip it instead of selecting a seed
[07:05] <shnatsel> then have to re-launch installation and think about the keys
[07:05] <GTRsdk> there should be instructions on how to use debian-installer built in with it
[07:06] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: if the UI needs explanation, it has to be fixed. (c) elementary philosophy, and also rule of UI design
[07:07] <shnatsel> apart of that, you have a very common mistake in your seed packages
[07:07] <shnatsel> everything is marked as "depends"
[07:07] <shnatsel> instead of "recommends"
[07:07] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: which packages?
[07:08] <shnatsel> which is terrible because if you uninstall an app from the seed, you lose the metapackage, and then you lose all the other packages from the seed on an autoremove
[07:08] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: seeds, the ones parsed by Germinate
[07:08] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: http://packages.ubuntu.com/source/oneiric/ubuntustudio-meta
[07:10] <GTRsdk> so I have a mistake in a seed package?
[07:11] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: you have a mistake in the guidelines for creating them, I'd say
[07:11] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: apps should be marked as "recommends", not "depends"
[07:12] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: so which package?
[07:12] <shnatsel> ubuntustudio-meta source package
[07:12] <GTRsdk> I never packaged that one
[07:12] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: I don't have upload rights
[07:12] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: hmm, I didn't say it's personally your fault, did I?
[07:13] <shnatsel> nvm
[07:15] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: I'm not even in the ubuntustudio-dev team yet
[07:16] <shnatsel> OK, the project has this error
[07:16] <shnatsel> I gotta report a bug I guess
[07:16] <shnatsel> !report ubuntustudio
[07:16] <shnatsel> hmm
[07:17] <shnatsel> yeah, no rabbitbot here, sorry
[07:18] <GTRsdk> okay
[07:22] <shnatsel> reported as bug 840144
[07:44] <shnatsel> Here's the doc about custom ubiquity from edubuntu: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JinRIl_hYWJA4L0COe9r5uAX4ZgmfqyIYmC5Tdhfn3o/edit
[08:00] <astraljava> I'm not too sure about that bug. For instance, -desktop kinda needs to depend on certain packages, that construct the whole desktop experience. IMHO, that's an invalid.
[08:02] <astraljava> Is there an auto-removal for Synaptic?
[08:02] <astraljava> If you use it on apt-get, you're kinda expected to know what you're doing anyway.
[09:26] <shnatsel> ScottL: ubuntu studio doesn't use Launchpad blueprints at the moment. Maybe you should change that? AFAIK it's the best specification tracker available, and we definitely need one to get something done (I sent a link to my writeup on that a while ago)
[09:34] <shnatsel> ScottL: I need to coordinate some changes to the seed architecture but you have nowhere to write that down
[09:34] <shnatsel> it sounds like a series of related bugs and blueprints to me atm
[11:43] <scott-work> morning...i noticed a lot was written while getting ready to come to work, i'll read logs in a bit
[11:51] <scott-work> shnatsel: you mention blueprints and launchpad and a link in a write up that you sent a while ago....how long ago and to whom did you send the email?  i don't recall seeing anything at the moment
[11:51] <scott-work> TheMuso: could you offer any opinion on bug 840144 ?
[11:52] <shnatsel> scott-work: actually, I pasted the link here. elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what’s-our-sleeves
[11:52] <scott-work> okay, yes, i saw that one :)
[11:53] <shnatsel> scott-work: bug 840144 it's a requirement for the selective app installation in Ubiquity, too
[11:53] <scott-work> okay, when i looked at it yesterday it looked just like a journal but as i read more at a particular entry i can see where you are talking about lauchpad blueprints
[11:54] <scott-work> to be very direct, i had considered using blueprints before (and milestones) but i really didn't understand it completely so i have shied away from it
[11:54] <scott-work> i would very much like to understand them however
[11:54] <scott-work> i will read more from your link when i have more time (i.e. not at work)  ;)
[11:55] <scott-work> shnatsel: is there a particular journal entry that you would i recommend reading first or foremost?
[11:56] <shnatsel> scott-work: this is the only writeup about LP blueprints I'm aware about.
[11:56] <shnatsel> scott-work: I tried to explain why blueprints are needed, what problem do they solve and how to use them
[11:57] <scott-work> so far this is the best i've read that starts explaining more about blueprints: http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves
[11:57] <scott-work> i will definitely read more tonight
[11:57] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes, that's my article :)
[11:58] <scott-work> oh, oh, oh...this is funny
[11:58] <scott-work> shnatsel: the link you gave me is slightly broken :)
[11:58] <scott-work> it takes me to the main journal page
[11:58] <scott-work> hahaha
[11:58] <shnatsel> http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves
[11:58] <shnatsel> ?
[11:59] <shnatsel> hmm... :(
[11:59] <scott-work> elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-whats-our-sleeves
[11:59] <scott-work> between "what" and "s" i see a funny square box
[11:59] <shnatsel> copy-pasting from url bar in firefox 7 seems to be glitchy
[11:59] <scott-work> the link you _just_ posted has "%E2%80%99" between "what" and "s"
[12:00] <scott-work> i read the titles and decided to read a little more on one that i thought would be right
[12:00] <scott-work> happenstance that i picked the one you wanted me to read
[12:00] <shnatsel> sorry, my bad
[12:00] <shnatsel> I'm glad you found the right article anyway :)
[12:00] <scott-work> i think it's kinda funny
[12:01] <scott-work> okay, i will take a break at work and read this article during the day
[12:01] <scott-work> yes, thank you very much, this will be much help!
[12:01] <scott-work> i did something similar for packaging for backports using PPA's
[12:01] <scott-work> http://fossmusicproject.blogspot.com/
[12:02] <scott-work> it started as a record for me to help me remember how i did stuff but then morphed into a way for others to use and i expand on what a ppa is and how it can be used
[12:02] <scott-work> astraljava: did you see my comment about livedvd?
[12:21] <scott-work> shnatsel: do you work with any other projects other than elemtary?
[12:23] <shnatsel> scott-work: well, I also made http://shnatsel.blogspot.com/2011/07/weve-just-revolutionized-alpha-testing.html and it needs work
[12:24] <shnatsel> also http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/tag/shnatsel
[12:25] <shnatsel> or maybe http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?s=shnatsel
[12:25] <scott-work> i will say that i like the clean look of the windows for the midoria screenshot under the discover page on the elementary os website
[12:26] <scott-work> i would like to push the ubuntu studio windows dressings to such a clean look
[12:26] <shnatsel> scott-work: Midori is also damn fast and, unlike other browsers, it integrates with the DE well
[12:26] <scott-work> i think that xfce can look very clean but yet elegant too, perhaps even a "cutting edge" look
[12:27] <scott-work> i just don't know much about changing themes or window dressings
[12:27] <shnatsel> scott-work: there is an elementary theme port to XFCE
[12:28] <scott-work> hmmm, i might have to look into that then :)
[12:28] <shnatsel> scott-work: to be completely honest, I think you'd better migrate to Pantheon than to XFCE.
[12:28] <scott-work> i haven't heard of pantheon before
[12:29] <shnatsel> scott-work: it's elementary's desktop environment, to be released with the next OS version
[12:29] <shnatsel> scott-work: it also has a modular DE-independent shell, Pantheon Shell that beats GNOME Shell and Unity
[12:30] <shnatsel> it's built to be lightweight and fast, and also has very good design that's traditional to elementary project
[12:31] <shnatsel> IMHO XFCE is good, but some of its components are hardly usable in real life; it's better to fix GNOME than to switch to XFCE.
[12:31] <shnatsel> e.g. Mousepad vs Gedit
[12:32] <shnatsel> Mousepad is almost as useful as Windoze Notepad
[12:32] <shnatsel> xfconf is better than gconf but dconf/GSettings from GNOME3 beat it
[12:33] <shnatsel> dconf is damn fast; it's dconf that makes such a difference in login time between Lucid and Maverick
[12:33] <shnatsel> etc etc etc
[12:34] <shnatsel> so in elementary project we take GNOME and replace everything we don't like with custom apps
[12:34] <shnatsel> There was an article about it in the journal... http://elementaryos.org/journal/meet-me-pantheon
[12:36] <shnatsel> Mac has a reputation of being an OS for designers and creative people, because it's well-designed. I'm sure a Linux distro for creative people also should have the best design available.
[12:37] <shnatsel> which is IMO elementary project. Unity is just ridiculous and GNOME is still like it's from early 2000s
[12:39] <shnatsel> There was a screencast of Pantheon shell somewhere...
[12:39] <shnatsel> Outdated, but still: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/05/video-slingshot-plank-wingpanel-beatbox.html
[12:40] <shnatsel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXaigfAc4vM
[12:40] <scott-work> shnatsel: one thing to keep in mind is that ubuntu studio cannot ship anything in the image that is not in the official repositories (i.e. cannot use PPA)
[12:40] <shnatsel> ATM this is a prototype
[12:40]  * scott-work is working on reading backscroll
[12:41] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes, so we'll have to push all elementary apps to ubuntu repos on time; I have no idea how that can be done, because we mostly follow Ubuntu release schedule.
[12:42] <shnatsel> IMHO using only official repos slows ubuntu studio down so much...
[12:43] <shnatsel> I might make elementary studio someday, with blackjack and PPAs
[12:43] <scott-work> hehe, that would be pretty cool
[12:43] <scott-work> i an aware that xfce isn't quite a light as it used to be, especially compared to gnome and kde which used to be much heavier than xfce at one time
[12:43] <scott-work> i believe that gap has narrowed in the last year or so
[12:44] <scott-work> i really think that we need to redefine and articulate our vision of ubuntu studio (i know i keep talking about this)
[12:44] <shnatsel> I guess don't really care about being lightweight because multimedia PCs are powerful anyway
[12:44] <scott-work> and having a fast light destktop is important (i believe)
[12:44] <scott-work> shnatsel: if that is the audience we want to serve (i.e. those with fast,  powerful computers)
[12:45] <scott-work> historically i believe we have tried to accomodate those with slower comptuers as well
[12:45] <scott-work> this doesn't make it proper though
[12:45] <shnatsel> scott-work: IMHO one of the mistakes you made is shipping custom artwork, custom sound theme, etc. After a fail of my artistic distro I strongly believe in division of labour and avoiding scattering resources.
[12:46] <shnatsel> scott-work: I haven't been there to see the project's history, though
[12:47] <scott-work> shnatsel: wrt "customer artwork, custom sound": are you suggesting that we focus solely on packaging and less on branding perhaps?
[12:47] <scott-work> i'm not being critical, i just want to understand your intent :)
[12:48] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes, exactly
[12:48] <scott-work> i ask also because i feel we really do need to figure out who we are, whom we server, and how we will server them
[12:49] <shnatsel> scott-work: my distro failed exactly for the same reason - nobody knew what exactly we were going to make
[12:50] <scott-work> shnatsel: i just realized something....
[12:51] <scott-work> but first, i have felt that the wallpaper on the desktop should be very, very plain
[12:51] <scott-work> for a multimedia comptuer
[12:51] <scott-work> it should be nuetral
[12:51] <scott-work> it shouldn't distract
[12:51] <scott-work> it shouldn't be busy
[12:51] <scott-work> it should just....be
[12:51] <scott-work> yeah, i know that sounds Zen
[12:52] <scott-work> i just realized that this may be why i am preferential to xfce
[12:52] <shnatsel> scott-work: or, the application presenting the wallpaper should present it in a way that makes any wallpaper be like that ;)
[12:52] <scott-work> it's uncluttered in many ways and it has simple, but functional, window dressings for example
[12:52] <scott-work> shnatsel: good point
[12:52] <shnatsel> scott-work: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/pantheon-wallpaper/+spec/focus-blur
[12:52] <shnatsel> ;)
[12:53] <scott-work> ah, yes...this is like the windows 7 or vista or something
[12:53] <scott-work> my wife has a window laptop she refuses to let me change to linux and it does this
[12:53] <scott-work> i very, very rarely use it though
[12:54] <shnatsel> scott-work: huh? It's implemented somewhere already?
[12:55] <scott-work> i belive so, perhaps its the other windows that blur or the background...i suppose it could be both
[12:55] <scott-work> but i recall that on my wife's windows machine the stuff behind the active window is blurred, it could only be other windows but it could include the background as well
[12:55] <shnatsel> AFAIR only the window decoration blurs stuff beneath it
[12:56] <shnatsel> Compiz can blur inactive windows
[12:57] <shnatsel> that module crashes Compiz on my PC with default settings, though
[12:57] <shnatsel> I had to tweak it
[12:57] <shnatsel> and I don't like the effect anyway
[12:58] <shnatsel> Fading out inactive windows works better
[12:58] <shnatsel> it's Compiz's ADD helper module
[12:59] <scott-work> but this was on a windows machine
[12:59] <scott-work> they are copying linux anyways ;)
[13:00] <scott-work> shnatsel: i appreciate your suggestions and comments and would appreciate any help you are willing to provide
[13:01] <shnatsel> scott-work: does forking ubuntu studio and making elementary studio count as help? ;)
[13:01] <shnatsel> I want to make your liveDVD first :)
[13:01] <scott-work> if we can steal some of you stuff!
[13:01] <scott-work> hehe
[13:01] <shnatsel> scott-work: no problem :)
[13:01] <scott-work> shnatsel:  astraljava had a very good point last night about supporting another image
[13:02] <shnatsel> scott-work: huh?
[13:02] <shnatsel> scott-work: I think I missed it
[13:02] <scott-work> we have been struggling to just test the images we have currently
[13:02] <scott-work> and the team is already spread pretty thin
[13:02] <scott-work> so we have a few options that i can think of currently...
[13:02] <scott-work> 1. scrap the live dvd (not my preference)
[13:02] <scott-work> 2. build up the community more (yay!)
[13:03] <scott-work> 3. create an "unofficial" livedvd that is "community" supported (weird third option)
[13:03] <shnatsel> scott-work: I choose 3 for Oneiric
[13:03] <scott-work> shnatsel: i presume you meant to help us create an officially built livedvd that is created and hosted by canonical via the automated buildd system that already builds the other images
[13:04] <scott-work> is that correct?  or am i mistaken
[13:04]  * scott-work is often mistaken but can easily admit it ;)
[13:04] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'm OK with that too
[13:04] <shnatsel> scott-work: I have no idea about Canonical build systems, though
[13:04] <shnatsel> scott-work: I know I can build a livedvd right now
[13:05] <scott-work> the buildd daemon builds the image from our seed files automatically and can only use items in the repositories
[13:05] <scott-work> all the ubuntu studio team does is have the seeds in our code
[13:05] <scott-work> but it would appear that you are suggesting we build our live dvd manually?
[13:05] <shnatsel> scott-work: well, building from seeds is OK
[13:06] <scott-work> i'm not judging or stating preference, i just want to understand your suggested process for building a live dvd
[13:06] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'm OK with any process that's best for the project
[13:06] <scott-work> i think that different people have different expectations and perhaps perceptions
[13:07] <scott-work> shnatsel: but what would your original idea for building a live dvd?
[13:07] <scott-work> s/would/was
[13:07] <shnatsel> scott-work: making an unofficial one for Oneiric to test it out and make it official for LTS
[13:08] <shnatsel> that was my initial plan
[13:08] <scott-work> shnatsel:  can you describe what you meant by "official"?
[13:08] <shnatsel> scott-work: no idea tbh
[13:08] <scott-work> lol, okay :)
[13:08] <shnatsel> scott-work: I have no idea about your processes
[13:08] <scott-work> i think i understand though
[13:09] <scott-work> perhaps you meant "unofficial" is that we build it and then just test it, we don't announce it publicly as an available image
[13:09] <scott-work> then for the LTS we build it and then announce it to the public as an available image
[13:09] <shnatsel> that's up to you actually
[13:09] <shnatsel> I build the image
[13:09] <shnatsel> you do the announcements you want
[13:09] <scott-work> sh
[13:09] <scott-work> shnatsel: how would you build the image?
[13:09] <shnatsel> I'm not the PR guy of the project
[13:10] <scott-work> i'll explain in a minute why i'm so curious about how you will build and the term "official" in a minute
[13:10] <shnatsel> scott-work: whatever process you prefer. I can build it locally. I can write a script that builds it. Whatever.
[13:10] <scott-work> again, this goes with expectation and perceptions
[13:10] <scott-work> okay, i'll explain why i was asking
[13:10] <shnatsel> It's a matter of apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop && pack image
[13:11] <scott-work> like i said before, we currently use the automated buildd daemon from canonical, the same one ubuntu uses to build their images
[13:11] <scott-work> this doesn't make it the "right" way or the preferred way, it just is _the_ way it is done currently
[13:11] <scott-work> to some this is the "official" image
[13:12] <shnatsel> I guess it's handy
[13:12] <scott-work> and to some the logic goes the other way as well....it is the "official" image because it's built by the buildd system
[13:12] <scott-work> which infers that it cannot be "official" if it isn't built using the buildd system
[13:13] <scott-work> again, not passing judgement or saying this is right or "proper", just stating how some feel
[13:13] <scott-work> my thoughts are...we choose what image we want to call "official"
[13:13] <scott-work> it's an arbitrary decision
[13:13] <scott-work> and choosing to say the buildd images are "official" is arbitrary decision as well
[13:14] <scott-work> but here's a nice dileneation....
[13:15] <scott-work> currently we follow canonical's QA system for the images and are required to participate in the montly image testing
[13:16] <scott-work> but if we offer an alternative image that we build then we might avoid that mandatory involvement in the QA testing
[13:16] <falktx> shnatsel: hey
[13:16] <falktx> hey there everyone
[13:16] <shnatsel> hi falktx
[13:16] <scott-work> not to say we wouldn't test it, but we wouldn't need to test two basically identical images and double our workload on a monthly basis
[13:16] <falktx> shnatsel: the last package had a small error, I forgot cmake
[13:16] <falktx> and section still seems to be kde
[13:17] <falktx> no kde3/kde4 difference I guess
[13:17] <scott-work> we could test our current image montly, then after release we could make the livedvd, test is specifically for the "live" aspect, then make it available for people :)
[13:17] <scott-work> shnatsel: do you have any objections, suggestions, comments, etc to what i described?
[13:19] <scott-work> falktx: you mentioned hosting a livedvd on your sourceforge page, is that still a valid offer?
[13:19] <falktx> scott-work: yes!
[13:20] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'm OK with that, except for the LiveDVD needs some testing too, and I think it's better to do it before the release, not after
[13:20] <falktx> scott-work: but making it takes a lot of time, so I think it's better to wait until final release, then make one
[13:20] <shnatsel> falktx: not that much
[13:20] <falktx> hm?
[13:21] <shnatsel> falktx: I've apt-built my squashfs-tools, so now I can build live Ubuntu images in ~30 minutes
[13:21] <shnatsel> compression stage takes 2-4 minutes
[13:21] <shnatsel> AuFS mount of squashfs - 1 minute
[13:21] <shnatsel> or less
[13:21] <falktx> shnatsel: 2-4 minutes? what cpu do you have??
[13:22] <falktx> it takes ~30 mins to compress the squash fs for me...
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: use apt-build :P
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: Core2Quad Q6600
[13:22] <falktx> ah
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: I bet Gentoo would build it even faster
[13:22] <falktx> quad
[13:22] <falktx> I have dual core 2.1Ghz
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: 2.4 here
[13:23] <falktx> makes sense
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: I don't have 100% CPU usage anymore
[13:23] <falktx> shnatsel: have you looked at my script?
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: after I apt-built squashfs-tools
[13:23] <shnatsel> now the bottleneck is the hard disk
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: which one?
[13:23] <falktx> to make a live iso
[13:24] <shnatsel> falktx: nope. never heard of it.
[13:24] <falktx> http://kxstudio.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=kxstudio/kxstudio;a=blob;f=scripts/kxstudio-create-iso;h=45a71bd0caa04359986fbb5e4989feee05abc9d5;hb=refs/heads/master
[13:24] <shnatsel> gah
[13:24] <shnatsel> one more reinvention of the wheel
[13:24] <falktx> shnatsel: well, it's for personal use
[13:24] <shnatsel> elementary has a similar thing when I came
[13:24] <falktx> but shared as all-is-opensource spirit
[13:25] <shnatsel> falktx: this is a sure overkill. Just use UCK.
[13:25] <falktx> shnatsel: I used that script to build previous KXStudio ISOs
[13:25] <falktx> I like to have control, using an app to make things for me it's not what I want here
[13:26] <shnatsel> falktx: UCK does all the boring  stuff and lets you script the rest
[13:26] <shnatsel> falktx: but, really, the ISO build script should be "uncompress minimal ISO, install metapackage, build ISO"
[13:27] <falktx> my script creates a new empty chroot and builds from there
[13:27] <shnatsel> falktx: UCK does the same.
[13:28] <shnatsel> falktx: but UCK is popular and polished
[13:28] <shnatsel> falktx: and you don't have to care about working around upstream bugs
[13:29] <shnatsel> falktx: moreover, it doesn't stupidly uncompress the base image - it uses an AuFS mount when possible, which speeds up base image uncompression several times
[13:29] <shnatsel> falktx: reinventing it is not a good idea.
[13:29] <falktx> I don't think I'm reinventing, I'm just doing things as I know
[13:30] <falktx> I never used UCK
[13:30] <shnatsel> OK, as you wish
[13:30] <shnatsel> I tried that in elementary and had to give up this approach because debugging and maintaining it took too much time
[13:31] <shnatsel> so I switched to UCK
[13:32] <falktx> shnatsel: consider it this way - I made that script (which are basically the command-line stuff I need to run, just packed), so I'm very confortable with it
[13:32] <shnatsel> then I switched installing separate packages to Germinate-based seeds, because apt-get lines left too much unwanted stuff after them, or pulled it back in on updating some packages
[13:32] <shnatsel> and I got tired of debugging it
[13:33] <falktx> debugging?
[13:33] <shnatsel> falktx: sure
[13:33] <falktx> creating an ISO is simple, it's just take takes a lot of cpu and disk usage
[13:33] <falktx> and my disk already broke once
[13:33] <shnatsel> falktx: lol
[13:33] <falktx> my laptop no longer has warranty, so I need to be extra careful
[13:33] <shnatsel> falktx: bug 799375
[13:34] <shnatsel> falktx: do you know how many times I tracked those recommends and removed them just to get unity back in the ISO in a week?
[13:35] <falktx> shnatsel: ahaha, I never had that problem
[13:35] <falktx> it's all about meta-packages
[13:35] <shnatsel> falktx: yep
[13:35] <falktx> kxstudio meta-packages are simple and clean
[13:35] <shnatsel> falktx: so, elementary build script now looks like "call uck to unpack image, install metapackage, call uck to pack image"
[13:36] <shnatsel> because there's no point in maintaining custom build functions
[13:36] <shnatsel> uck already does it and does it very well
[13:36] <falktx> I believe in you
[13:36] <falktx> but
[13:37] <falktx> "don't fix what ain't broken"
[13:37] <shnatsel> falktx: time will break it.
[13:37] <shnatsel> falktx: unfortunately :(
[13:37] <falktx> shnatsel: if my script stops working, I'll definitely try uck
[13:37] <falktx> but, except maybe for US, I dont plan to build any more ISOs
[13:42] <scott-work> shnatsel: sorry, i probably didn't explain myself properly about testing and a live dvd
[13:42] <scott-work> we would do all the expected testing for the alternative image throughout the cycle, this validates the image and applications
[13:43] <shnatsel> falktx: if you ever plan to do it again, apt-build your squashfs-tools, or even use a compiler that optimizes better than GCC :)
[13:43] <scott-work> then after the "official" (i.e. the buildd built image) is released then we create the "community" image
[13:43] <scott-work> then we test the "community" live dvd only for the "live" aspect, we don't need to reaffirm the packages work, etc
[13:45] <shnatsel> scott-work: OK
[13:45] <shnatsel> np
[13:46] <shnatsel> whatever is best for you
[13:48] <scott-work> i just wanted to point out that we would test the live dvd, but just a select aspect of it
[13:49] <scott-work> shnatsel: this isn't a firm decision yet and the team really needs to discuss this further on how a live dvd would be created, supported, etc
[13:49] <shnatsel> scott-work: I hope this is none of my business :) Alert me when you make a decision.
[13:49] <scott-work> i think we should also discuss _which_ images we might want, some might suggest eliminating the alternate image completely
[13:50] <shnatsel> yep
[13:50] <shnatsel> it makes even more sense if the ubiquity patch will be a success
[13:50] <shnatsel> s/will be/is/
[13:50] <kubotu> shnatsel meant: "it makes even more sense if the ubiquity patch is a success"
[13:51] <scott-work> shnatsel:  lol, i think we would appreciate your involvment if only to inform us of the available methods and their advantages
[13:51] <scott-work> kubotu: are you a bot?
[13:51] <charlie-tca> kubotu is the bot normally found only in Kubuntu channels
[13:52] <scott-work> charlie-tca: yeah, i know, but sometimes i try to get him to say something
[13:52] <scott-work> but i forgot, i though jussi muted him a while back...hmmm, i wonder what changed
[13:52] <scott-work> that bot used to spout all kinds of crap at random intervals and seemed to be responding to other conversations in other channels :/
[13:53] <charlie-tca> I wish the rest of the bots could give the corrections the way kubotu does
[13:53] <scott-work> lol
[13:53] <shnatsel> elementary's RabbitBot is clever enough to respond to greetings, praise and calling names :)
[13:56] <shnatsel> I don't think that an alternate image is a good idea really
[13:57] <shnatsel> if you don't want to support two images, use livedvd :)
[13:57] <shnatsel> but, let's first make one and see if it works at all
[13:58] <shnatsel> So, I wrote some docs on edubuntu's ubiquity: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JinRIl_hYWJA4L0COe9r5uAX4ZgmfqyIYmC5Tdhfn3o/edit?hl=ru
[13:58] <shnatsel> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JinRIl_hYWJA4L0COe9r5uAX4ZgmfqyIYmC5Tdhfn3o/edit
[13:58] <shnatsel> actually
[13:59] <holstein> yup... +1 live disc
[13:59] <holstein> but, maybe not this cycle
[13:59] <scott-work> shnatsel: did you help edubuntu develop this?
[14:00] <shnatsel> scott-work: nope
[14:00] <shnatsel> scott-work: I just went and questioned stgraber
[14:00] <shnatsel> and then wrote this doc
[14:00] <scott-work> cool
[14:00] <scott-work> cory had mentioned talkign to the edubuntu guys about this
[14:01] <shnatsel> btw, me and stgraber work in some close areas, e.g. he wrote Arkose and I wrote Glimpse. I guess it could be a good idea to team up.
[14:01] <shnatsel> Well, now we have the info :)
[14:04] <shnatsel> So, to get that we need the following:
[14:05] <shnatsel> 1) fix bug 840144
[14:06] <shnatsel> 2) customize edubuntu-live package and make ubuntustudio-live
[14:06] <shnatsel> 3) viola, build the ISO
[14:07] <shnatsel> btw, you have an enormous amount of [needs-packaging] bugs... I'd really want to see darktable in Ubuntu repos
[14:09] <shnatsel> oh, it's available in Oneiric! Yay!
[14:09]  * shnatsel installs in in Glimpse to try it out
[14:16] <shnatsel> wow, darktable is super-cool indeed
[14:17] <scott-work> shnatsel: i offer two comments about [needs-packaging] bugs...
[14:17] <holstein> there was a really nice email on the list too
[14:17] <scott-work> 1. we haven't really had someone to package things
[14:17] <holstein> about xsane
[14:18] <holstein> some other stuff more opinion bases...
[14:18] <holstein> based*
[14:18] <scott-work> 2. REVU (the ubuntu process for new packages) seems to be quite slow and unrepsonsive to audio/graphical/video packages
[14:18] <holstein> is there a REVU channel?
[14:18] <scott-work> holstein: i read that last night or this morning while walking dogs, it's good information
[14:18] <scott-work> holstein: i don't know about a REVU channel
[14:19] <scott-work> shnatsel: but we have found that submitting bugs, or appending launchpad bugs for debian, tends to move things along well
[14:19] <holstein> i think its just *-motu
[14:19] <holstein> scott-work: im going to hang with pete graner today :)
[14:19] <holstein> its his Bday too
[14:19] <scott-work> cool :)
[14:20] <scott-work> he's still with the kernel team, right?
[14:20] <holstein> AFAIK
[14:20] <scott-work> it was JFo that was dropped or quit or whatever
[14:20] <holstein> i havent talked to him in years
[14:20] <holstein> he came to a gig i played in his neighborhood
[14:20] <scott-work> that's awesome
[14:21] <holstein> i havent seen Jfo in a while either
[14:35] <shnatsel> hmm... how do I report a bug in SourceForge?
[14:43] <craigs63> http://sourceforge.net/support       anything on here look like it fits your problem?
[14:43] <craigs63> (I know nothing)
[14:46] <shnatsel> sorry, I meant reporting a bug in an app that is hosted on SourceForge
[14:50] <craigs63> Hard to tell who is "away" on here, or is that the lighter grey user names?
[14:52] <scott-work> craigs63:  depends on your irc client, but in xchat the light gray is away
[14:52] <scott-work> btw, hi craigs63 and christof
[14:53] <craigs63> using XChat 2.8.8.  Thanks
[14:53] <craigs63> Is there a torrent version of the beta Oneiric dvd? I have better luck with those vs. regular d/l on my laptop.
[14:57] <shnatsel> Wow, darktable is so freaking awesome
[14:58] <shnatsel> you gotta replace shotwell with darktable in ubuntu studio for sure
[15:04] <shnatsel> well, maybe tnot replace, but include it as well for sure
[15:28] <scott-work> craigs63: torrents do not generally exist for images until they are officially released
[15:29] <scott-work> craigs63: you can zync or rzync with some of the daily images however to reduce downloads
[15:29] <scott-work> shnatsel: all that i ask for including applications is to adjust or add to the work flows
[15:30] <shnatsel> scott-work: OK
[15:30] <scott-work> shnatsel: of course if a work flow is made for some task that only 0.01% of users might use then we probably won't include that apps though ;)
[15:30] <scott-work> just a sanity check is all we use
[15:31] <scott-work> shnatsel: you seem very interested in the graphical applications, i am very receptive to your input on creating a more comprehensive grapichical application set
[15:32] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'll try to add more workflows there, but, as I said, I suck at paperwork :(
[15:32] <scott-work> it's kinda funny to see people talk about the ubuntu studio theme because it is old and kinda broken in some ways
[15:33] <scott-work> shnatsel:  the form of the work flows isn't set in stone, it's jsut what i created when i first started them, please feel free to use what is comfortable
[15:33] <craigs63> I installed regular ubuntu, then the studio stuff, so I am not sure I have the "real" themes.
[15:33] <scott-work> shnatsel: also, i'd be happy to assist you with them, if an email to me is better then do that and then i'll write it up
[15:34] <shnatsel> scott-work: OK :)
[15:34] <shnatsel> scott-work: darktable seems to embrace the whole photographic workflow
[15:35] <shnatsel> scott-work: from importing photos from the camera to uploading them to online galleries
[15:35] <shnatsel> I think I'll write this up myself
[15:41] <shnatsel> I think I'll make a PPA for the custom ubiquity and other stuff
[15:42] <shnatsel> anybody willing to work on bug 840144?
[15:42] <scott-work> shnatsel: i would like to hear from either persia or TheMuso about making that change first
[15:42] <shnatsel> scott-work: fine
[15:43] <scott-work> they are some of the original plank owners (and ubuntu core-devs i believe) of ubuntu studio and value their input to make sure any unwanted effects will not occur
[15:44] <shnatsel> scott-work: AFAIK ubuntu have already switched half of its seed dependencies to recommends, edubuntu have switched to recommends completely, elementary uses recommends for the time being
[15:45] <scott-work> shnatsel: i also understand that this would be required for the live media changes via the ubuiqity patch
[15:45] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes
[15:46] <shnatsel> scott-work: this is a requirement for the user to be able to choose some of the packages provided by the metapackage, not all-or-none
[15:46] <scott-work> aye
[15:55] <shnatsel> OK updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[15:56] <scott-work> awesome, thank you shnatsel !
[16:08] <craigs63> Some of the wiki docs are great, some are saying what the docs _should_ say in the future.
[16:08] <holstein> i am at my LUG today
[16:08] <holstein> we are talking about the jam this weekend
[16:09] <holstein> i would like to JAM tomorrow on some of the US wikis
[16:09] <holstein> im not going to have time today
[16:12] <shnatsel> falktx: you gotta add packages from ppa:doctormo/wacom-plus to ppa:kxstudio-team/kernel
[16:12] <shnatsel> falktx: that enables recent Wacom tablets
[16:12] <falktx> shnatsel: oh, ok
[16:13] <shnatsel> falktx: btw, what's audio-thumbs in KXStudio-Team Main ?
[16:15] <falktx> shnatsel: thumbs for audio files (displays covers)
[16:15] <shnatsel> falktx: that python thing?
[16:15] <shnatsel> falktx: that fetches covers from amazon?
[16:15] <falktx> don't know if it's python
[16:15] <falktx> shnatsel: no
[16:16] <falktx> shnatsel: it's a small thumbnailer, gets images from music files
[16:16] <falktx> yes, musics have images inside
[16:16] <shnatsel> falktx: it works for individual files or for directories?
[16:16] <falktx> files
[16:16] <shnatsel> hmm
[16:16] <shnatsel> cool
[16:16] <falktx> shnatsel: but kde can thumbnails directories, so it's cool
[16:17] <shnatsel> I tried something similar in the past but it was too slow for general use: http://s59.radikal.ru/i163/1109/00/e335fb0dab52.png
[16:18] <shnatsel> falktx: does that thumbnailer work under xfce?
[16:18] <falktx> shnatsel: no, it's just for kde afaik
[16:19] <shnatsel> that's a pity
[16:20] <falktx> I really don't like nautilus
[16:20] <falktx> it's not that nautilus is not good, dolphin is just much better
[16:22] <shnatsel> falktx: agreed
[16:22] <shnatsel> falktx: we're making Marlin in elementary, it's similar to Dolphin in some aspects
[16:23] <falktx> but then dolphin is also advancing
[16:24] <shnatsel> falktx: yes, 2 years ago I hated it
[16:24] <shnatsel> falktx: now it's actually usable
[16:31] <shnatsel> nautilus-elementary was OK though
[16:31] <falktx> eeh, almost ok
[16:32] <falktx> top terminal didnt worked right
[16:32] <falktx> and I miss option when dragging files around
[16:32] <falktx> *options
[16:32] <falktx> like move, copy, link, extract, etc
[16:32] <falktx> dolphin has those, it's very handy
[16:33]  * falktx is creating a new team for audio plugin development
[16:33] <shnatsel> falktx: it has
[16:33] <falktx> shnatsel: what do you think about the website template? -> http://distrho.sourceforge.net/index.html
[16:33] <shnatsel> falktx: top terminal works fine for me, coverflow works if I tell Clutter not to sync to vblank
[16:34] <shnatsel> falktx: where's the website template?
[16:34] <shnatsel> falktx: there's such a lot of stuff in that page
[16:34] <falktx> shnatsel: top terminal does not handle "ctrl+KEY" events properply
[16:34] <shnatsel> falktx: it does
[16:35] <falktx> shnatsel: it's just the template for now, I'll edit later
[16:35] <falktx> shnatsel: try ctrl+R
[16:35] <shnatsel> falktx: I use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+O and Ctrl+X
[16:35] <shnatsel> falktx: never tried +R
[16:35] <falktx> R is for "history"
[16:35] <falktx> so I don't type the same commands over and over again
[16:36] <shnatsel> falktx: try Ctrl+Shift+R
[16:36] <falktx> can't
[16:36] <falktx> no longer running elementary-mautilus
[16:36] <shnatsel> falktx: I use up arrow
[16:36]  * falktx is on oneiric
[16:36] <falktx> shnatsel: I guess nautilus-elementary is not available for gnome3, or is it?
[16:37] <shnatsel> falktx: Ctrl+Shift+R works
[16:37] <shnatsel> falktx: no, it's not. Marlin is for GNOME3.
[16:37] <falktx> ctrl+r
[16:37] <falktx> not ctrl+shift
[16:37] <shnatsel> falktx: Ctrl+Shift+R does exactly what Ctrl+R does in usual terminal
[16:37] <falktx> shnatsel: on kde, terminal takes full control of keyboard when selected
[16:38] <falktx> for nautilus, keyboard is not grabbed, so some combos are send to the nautilus window itself
[16:39] <shnatsel> falktx: I use open terminal extension instead of embedded terminal if I need something big
[16:40] <falktx> I just got so used to dolphin
[16:40] <falktx> F4, do-this, done
[16:41] <falktx> shnatsel: how far is merlin from being beta/try.out version?
[16:42] <shnatsel> falktx: mArlin
[16:42] <shnatsel> falktx: Not sure. It works, it even does that quite well, but it's not complete yet
[16:42] <shnatsel> falktx: I use it from time to time
[16:43] <falktx> shnatsel: what are the diffs from nautilus? or is it a new product from scratch?
[16:43] <shnatsel> falktx: new product from scratch
[16:43] <falktx> nice
[16:46] <shnatsel> falktx: elementary actually has LOTS of projects, all written from scratch now: https://launchpad.net/elementary
[16:48] <shnatsel> falktx: https://launchpad.net/glimpse is mine, not officially elementar [yet]
[16:49] <falktx> you already know mine, https://launchpad.net/kxstudio
[16:49] <shnatsel> :)
[16:50] <falktx> it's also on sourceforge too, for the hosting and website
[16:50] <falktx> launchpad should allow website hosting
[16:50] <falktx> glimpse.lp.net
[16:51] <shnatsel> falktx: why duplicate sf?
[16:51] <shnatsel> falktx: sf already provides that
[16:51] <falktx> shnatsel: so you can have your project in 1 place only
[16:52] <shnatsel> falktx: huh... doesn't make much sense to me.
[16:52] <shnatsel> I don't need web hosting for my projects anyway.
[16:53] <falktx> hm, how do I make a gtk status icon double-click aware?
[16:54] <shnatsel> falktx: what's a status icon?
[16:54] <falktx> systray
[16:54] <shnatsel> ah
[16:54] <falktx> shnatsel: I have a python class that handles systray cross-desktop
[16:54] <shnatsel> isn't it xembed-based?
[16:54] <falktx> qt and kde works well, but I don't know much about gtk
[16:54] <shnatsel> GNOME Panel used to use xembed
[16:55] <shnatsel> AFAIK
[16:55] <falktx> nope, app-indicator
[16:55] <shnatsel> which sucked
[16:55] <falktx> for xembed I use plain qt
[16:55] <shnatsel> app indicator? It's an api from KDE, isn't it?
[16:55] <shnatsel> falktx: I guess there's no way to do it (there shouldn't be at least)
[16:56]  * falktx looks around
[17:27] <falktx> no way to do this
[18:40] <ScottL> astraljava, ping
[18:40] <ScottL> i'm out and about, but i'll check in from time to time
[23:12] <astraljava> ScottL: pong
[23:12] <ScottL> astraljava, aye


[21:01] <jdstrand> win16
[21:07] <Seveas> jdstrand, the 90's called and want their OS back :)
[21:28] <mhall119> Seveas: no they don't


[00:01] <canthus13> wow. that was a lot of lag..
[00:25] <Cheri703> hooray for a crunchy hdd!
[01:37] <canthus13> crunchy?
[01:38] <Cheri703> it was making crunching noises, then scraping/screeching noises, then it died completely
[01:39] <canthus13> Nice.  It'll make a decent set of wind chimes...
[01:39] <Cheri703> yeah, I'm going to liveboot to see if everything else is healthy
[01:39] <canthus13> You *might* be able to recover a bit from it.  Stuff it in 2 or 3 freezer bags, then freeze it overnight.
[01:40] <Cheri703> (on that note, is there a quick utility to check the viability of other hardware?)
[01:40] <Cheri703> I'll try it
[01:41] <canthus13> Hmm. The only thing I can think of is a motherboard diagnostic card.
[01:41] <Cheri703> ok
[01:42] <canthus13> memtest86 does a decent job of testing RAM.
[01:46] <Cheri703> ok
[02:30] <Cheri703> back to microcenter tomorrow, woo! :/
[02:30] <Cheri703> got that person's laptop settled, now to see about this dang printer
[02:34] <canthus13> Use a hammer.
[02:34] <Cheri703> :/ will just return it if it comes to that
[02:34] <Cheri703> I don't want to compromise my moral stance on hp, but...if they have one that does what I want...it's tempting :/
[02:47] <Cheri703> so the turboprint driver is...manageable, but 30day free trial then purchase :/
[02:48] <Cheri703> rawr at hp :( :( :(
[02:48] <Cheri703> they have a printer that does basically what I want for $60 :(
[03:39] <dmcglone> Hello peeps :-)
[03:39]  * canthus13 is *NOT* a squishy, animal-shaped marshmallow covered in colored sugar.
[03:40] <dmcglone> is that what a peep is?
[03:40] <dmcglone> :-)
[03:40] <Cheri703> google "peep science"
[03:41] <dmcglone> I'm on top of it
[03:41] <dmcglone> :-)
[03:42] <dmcglone> Ah your referring to the name of them little yellow marshmallow ducks for easter
[03:42] <dmcglone> I forgot all about them
[03:42] <dmcglone> haha
[03:43] <dmcglone> Heard you got a new printer Cheri703
[03:43] <Cheri703> yes indeed
[03:44] <dmcglone> what did ya decide to go with?
[03:44] <canthus13> she's having buyer's remorse.
[03:44] <dmcglone> I got me an HP 6500n and it's awesome
[03:44] <canthus13> heh.
[03:44] <Cheri703> I got a canon pixma mg5220
[03:44] <Cheri703> and canthus13 I got it working alright :)
[03:45] <Cheri703> printed out a bunch of stuff that my hps (multiple of them) would never have handled as smoothly :D
[03:45] <canthus13> Heh.
[03:46] <Cheri703> dmcglone: mine can duplex!
[03:46] <dmcglone> I'm not sure if mine can, but I can print from anywhere I have internet access
[03:47] <dmcglone> and it's got instant built in apps
[03:48] <dmcglone> check this out: http://h30495.www3.hp.com/?from=h20563.www2.hp.com&jumpid=in_R11549%2FDT
[03:48] <Cheri703> sweet
[03:48] <Cheri703> mine is wireless as well, and it has iphone printing support, I'm curious if there's android support too
[03:49] <dmcglone> yeah mine has smart phone ability too, but unfortunately I don't have internet on my phone :-/
[03:49] <Cheri703> :/
[03:50] <dmcglone> I got tired of at&t charging me for crap so I told them to take it and shove it where the sun don't shine
[03:52] <dmcglone> Cheri703:  ever heard of coupon mom?
[03:53] <Cheri703> nope
[03:55] <dmcglone> it's a website where you can get tons of great deals and coupons, but them sites require windows because you have to download software to make sure you don't print more coupons than allowed, well I always had to go get on my moms windows computer, but now it's all built into my printer
[03:55] <Unit193> Doesn't work in wine?
[03:56] <dmcglone> wine never works for me man
[03:56] <dmcglone> I have come to hate wine
[03:56] <Unit193> I have it on every Linux install....
[03:56] <dmcglone> your better off running window in a VM
[03:56] <Unit193> Nope...
[03:57] <dmcglone> let me rephrase that: I'm better off that is
[03:57] <Unit193> Have some left over works files (from a Win98) works 99 works better in linux then windows!!
[03:57] <canthus13> Depends on what it is.
[03:57] <dmcglone> wine just never ever works for me :-/
[03:57] <canthus13> not everything works better in a VM.
[03:58] <dmcglone> I hear people talk about how wine works for them, but it just seems to hate me!
[03:58] <canthus13> dmcglone: If you weren't so mean to it...
[03:59] <Unit193> dmcglone: I may end up doing it like you do (gnome with KDE apps)
[03:59] <dmcglone> Awww I feel the love ;-)
[04:00] <dmcglone> thats cool
[04:01] <dmcglone> it might work great for you Unit193
[04:01]  * dmcglone has been using linux for many moons
[04:01] <Unit193> I really hate decisions (that's all linux seems to be)
[04:01] <Unit193> How would that work great?
[04:03] <Cheri703> wine works for a few programs for me, but I'm a fan of vmware player
[04:03] <dmcglone> I like the fact that if I pay thousands of dollars for an app, I can at least have a shot at fixing it myself, before I spend another thousand paying the people that couldn't code it right in the first place ;-)
[04:04] <dmcglone> I used to use VMware
[04:05] <dmcglone> the only reason I have windows is for Command & Conquer. so there is no sense in running a VM
[04:05] <Unit193> My sister needs Office 2k7 for school....
[04:06] <dmcglone> I wonder what it can do that Ooo can't
[04:06] <Cheri703> office can run in wine
[04:06] <Cheri703> dmcglone: save as a docx most likely
[04:06] <Unit193> 2007
[04:06] <Unit193> ?
[04:06] <Cheri703> probably
[04:06] <Cheri703> give me a sec and I can find out
[04:07] <Unit193> (Still have to test it)
[04:07]  * Cheri703 may have a copy floating around as an iso..
[04:09] <dmcglone> I would look deep into Ooo and see if it can do everything she needs
[04:09] <Unit193> It can't
[04:10] <Cheri703> dmcglone: too many people are using the .docx now, it's stupid
[04:11] <canthus13> docx sucks.
[04:11] <canthus13> docx pisses me off every day at work.
[04:11] <Cheri703> yes, I hate it
[04:11] <dmcglone> Cheri703: on a side note, I am meeting Matthew tomorrow morning
[04:12] <Cheri703> yeah, he mentioned that :)
[04:12] <Cheri703> I'm glad it (at least so far) is working out :)
[04:12] <canthus13> We don't have office on our machines. We have Office 2003 document viewers.  Idiot secretaries in the company send out memos as docx.
[04:12] <dmcglone> he'll be happy.
[04:12] <Cheri703> ha, fun canthus13
[04:12] <canthus13> Yeah.
[04:12] <dmcglone> I'll take good care of him, thats for sure
[04:13] <Cheri703> awesome dmcglone, he and his wife are great people
[04:13] <dmcglone> yes, he is very polite
[04:14] <Cheri703> he can be very....enthusiastic :)
[04:15] <dmcglone> I'll make sure he gets the royal treatment
[04:15] <Cheri703> awesome :) it's appreciated
[04:15] <dmcglone> well him being enthusiastic is better than my sarcasm... :-)
[04:16] <Cheri703> probably true
[04:16] <dmcglone> lol
[04:16] <dmcglone> it's gotta be true
[04:16] <dmcglone> :-)
[04:16] <Unit193> I can be real bad with that too dmcglone
[04:17] <Cheri703> I always love it when people hear a phrase used often, and they write it in a completely wrong way: from an amazon review "[designer] NEVER seize to amaze me!"
[04:17] <dmcglone> I don't know why I have to always joke around
[04:17] <dmcglone> guess i'm afraid people will not like me
[04:17] <Cheri703> I'm VERY sarcastic
[04:17]  * dmcglone has always been the class clown
[04:17] <Cheri703> eh, sometimes joking is good, sometimes people want to see past it
[04:18] <Cheri703> ooo, completely random subject change: I got husband and I matching nerf guns the other day :D
[04:18] <dmcglone> your right cheri
[04:18] <dmcglone> so you can shoot each other when your mad at one another
[04:18] <dmcglone> :-)
[04:19] <Cheri703> sometimes ;)
[04:19] <Cheri703> they're fun
[04:19] <Cheri703> they're 6 shot revolvers :D
[04:19] <Unit193> I know some people that have them at work....
[04:19] <canthus13> Nice.
[04:20] <Cheri703> it is his first nerf gun EVER
[04:20] <Cheri703> his parents never let him have one
[04:20] <Cheri703> he's been going around the house shooting things for target practice
[04:20] <dmcglone> lol
[04:20] <Unit193> dogs?
[04:20] <Cheri703> no, they'd eat the darts
[04:20] <dmcglone> haha
[04:20] <Unit193> yeah...
[04:21] <Cheri703> the beagle mixes are nervous enough as it is...they're scared of the tiniest things :/ I'm working on socializing them
[04:21] <dmcglone> bring em to me, i'll talk their ears off
[04:21] <dmcglone> lol
[04:22] <Cheri703> heh, not quite that kind, but we are trying to have more visitors so they get used to other people, at our old place, we pretty much NEVER had people over
[04:22] <dmcglone> on second thought, they might turn them against being social
[04:22] <Cheri703> house was too run down :(
[04:23] <dmcglone> I know how that goes. When my wife and I first got married, we had it rough. took us many years to climb the ladder.
[04:24] <dmcglone> It was especially hard for me because of my condition
[04:24] <dmcglone> I've had managers say it right to my face too.
[04:26] <dmcglone> I went to school to be Diesel Mechanic, and I had one manager tell me he wouldn't hire me because he was afraid I would get hit by a car or truck in the garage!
[04:27] <dmcglone> Oh those were the days
[04:27] <dmcglone> :-)
[04:27] <Unit193> Your mostly, right?
[04:27] <dmcglone> mostly what?
[04:27] <Unit193> deaf?
[04:28] <Cheri703> :(
[04:28] <dmcglone> with my hearing aid on I hear everything
[04:28] <dmcglone> talk on the phone, listen to music etc, etc
[04:28] <Unit193> can be nice to take them out...
[04:28] <dmcglone> but when I take it off, I am completely deaf
[04:28] <dmcglone> Oh yeah. everyone says I have the best of both worlds
[04:29] <dmcglone> I wasn't born deaf though
[04:29] <Unit193> I might not go that far... have you found it handy?
[04:29] <Unit193> (is this a bad topic?)
[04:29] <dmcglone> no
[04:29] <dmcglone> I'm fine with talking about it
[04:29] <dmcglone> It doesn't bother me
[04:30] <Unit193> I don't always get what is and what isn't
[04:30] <dmcglone> have I found what handy? being able to turn my ears off so to speak? LOL
[04:30] <canthus13> Depends.  'Born deaf' culture is a bit different from 'Went deaf' culture.
[04:31] <dmcglone> true canthus13
[04:31] <dmcglone> very very true
[04:31] <dmcglone> I know some deaf people that hate hearing aids
[04:31] <canthus13> When it comes to Born deaf, some of them can be downright militant about their opinions, just like hearing people.
[04:31] <dmcglone> they don't believe in them
[04:31] <Cheri703> canthus13: my grandma and her brother were born deaf
[04:31] <Cheri703> grandma = militant
[04:32] <Cheri703> also she used to favor my brother over me because he had a hearing loss >.<
[04:32] <dmcglone> I lost my hearing from medical malpractice when I was 7
[04:32] <canthus13> Cheri703: it can be a pain in the butt dealing with folks like that.
[04:33] <Unit193> Cheri703: used to?
[04:33] <dmcglone> Cheri703: I don't think she favored him, I just think they were probably closer because they both understood what each had to bear in life :-/
[04:33] <Cheri703> I've seen them once in the past 10 years or so, and he wasn't around :)
[04:33] <Cheri703> dmcglone: she did...I was like 6 and she'd tell me not to eat so much, and then give him candy o.O various things, various ways, even my parents noticed and my dad had to tell her to stop
[04:34] <dmcglone> I have deaf friends and I connect with them in such a different and deeper way than i do some of my other friends
[04:34] <canthus13> Some deaf folks are downright prejudiced agains hearing folks.
[04:34] <Cheri703> I'd imagine so
[04:34] <canthus13> But it takes all types. :P
[04:35] <dmcglone> canthus13: are you just saying that because you got turned down by a really really really hot deaf girl?
[04:35] <dmcglone> LOL
[04:35] <canthus13> dmcglone: Nah. :)
[04:35] <dmcglone> :-)
[04:35] <Cheri703> my brother dated a deaf girl for a while
[04:35] <canthus13> dmcglone: I'm saying this because my parents used to do a lot of volunteer work through the church with the deaf community in San Antonio.
[04:35] <dmcglone> cool
[04:35] <Cheri703> they broke up (for various reasons) but he mentioned that he would realize he'd gone DAYS without speaking
[04:36] <Cheri703> and he easily isolates himself, so it wasn't a particularly good thing for him
[04:36] <dmcglone> I isolate myself a lot
[04:36] <dmcglone> not because I'm deaf, but because I need a mental break
[04:37] <canthus13> Meh. So do I.  It's a geek thing.
[04:37] <dmcglone> I work non stop
[04:37] <dmcglone> I take care of 3 kids practically by myself
[04:37] <canthus13> s straight.
[04:37] <Cheri703> well, yeah, but for someone who already isolates, to have their "social time" be completely silent as well? it was wearing on him even though he didn't realize it at the time :/
[04:37] <canthus13> Pisses off my wife sometimes.  I'll get to a point where I tell her to go away because she's been sitting next to me for two or three hours straight.
[04:38] <Cheri703> husband and I spend most of our time in separate rooms
[04:38] <dmcglone> lol canthus13
[04:38] <dmcglone> Cheri703: I love silence
[04:38] <dmcglone> silence is golden
[04:38] <dmcglone> lol
[04:38] <Cheri703> me too, husband is ALWAYS ALWAYS making noise of some sort
[04:39] <Cheri703> tapping, humming, whistling, shaking his foot (movement is annoying as well, if I'm not the one causing it), etc
[04:39] <Cheri703> drives me NUTS
[04:39] <dmcglone> amplify that 3 times along with a wife barking orders and ya got my life... LOL
[04:39] <Cheri703> heh
[04:39] <Cheri703> women don't bark orders, they gently compel ;)
[04:40] <dmcglone> have you met my wife???? HAHA
[04:40] <dmcglone> 2 of my kids are like your husband Cheri703
[04:40] <dmcglone> they constantly talk like you are in california
[04:41] <dmcglone> they fight constantly
[04:41] <dmcglone> it's a never ending battle
[04:41] <dmcglone> LOL
[04:41] <Unit193> Two older sisters....
[04:41] <dmcglone> BUT......I wouldn't trade it for the world
[04:42]  * dmcglone loves his kids to death
[04:42] <dmcglone> and I am very protective of my girls
[04:42] <dmcglone> Unit193 do you torture them?
[04:43] <dmcglone> ;-)
[04:43] <Unit193> OLDER sisters ;)
[04:43] <dmcglone> what you scared of them because they are older?
[04:43] <dmcglone> ;-)
[04:44] <dmcglone> here's a great thing about being deaf, I sleep through everything
[04:44] <Unit193> I'm taller so no issue there... the one whacks me at times
[04:45] <dmcglone> whack her back
[04:45] <dmcglone> lol
[04:46] <Unit193> I mostly come out as the bad one, so I don't whack back much (I actually like that sister)
[04:46] <Unit193> Not that I don't like the other one
[04:47] <dmcglone> can I ask you something?
[04:47] <Unit193> sure!
[04:47] <dmcglone> how old are you?
[04:47] <dmcglone> lmao
[04:47] <Unit193> 137
[04:47] <dmcglone> lol
[05:09] <dmcglone> canthus13: you must be into something tonight to be this quiet
[05:11] <canthus13> Nah.
[05:11] <canthus13> Just doin' other stuff, listening to the violent femmes....
[05:12] <dmcglone> is that music?
[05:12] <canthus13> Yup. Remember "Blister in The Sun" or "Add it Up"?
[05:13] <dmcglone> no?
[05:13] <dmcglone> was it by violent femme
[05:13] <dmcglone> s
[05:13] <canthus13> Late 80's/early 90's.
[05:13] <canthus13> Yep.
[05:13] <Cheri703> let me go oooouut like i blister in the sun, let me go ooooout, big hands I know you're the one
[05:13] <Cheri703> something like that
[05:14] <dmcglone> that was too early for me
[05:14] <canthus13> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra8VTlXVqUQ
[05:14] <dmcglone> that didn't sound right
[05:14] <canthus13> Let me go on, not out. :)
[05:14] <Cheri703> meh
[05:14] <Cheri703> close enough
[05:15] <Cheri703> that's what it sounds like
[05:15] <canthus13> but yeah, that's the song. :)
[05:15] <dmcglone> are they heavy metal?
[05:15] <Cheri703> then he's saying "oooowwwwn"
[05:16] <canthus13> More like early alternative/new wave.
[05:16] <Cheri703> ooo, flat mullet there
[05:16] <canthus13> with a bit of rockabilly.
[05:16] <dmcglone> I see.
[05:16] <Cheri703> acoustic guitar guy
[05:16] <canthus13> They were just a really fun band.
[05:16] <dmcglone> I was more into thrash metal than anything back in them days
[05:17] <canthus13> and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHapDS2fcFE&NR=1 (add it up)
[05:17] <dmcglone> anyone remember when Metallica first put "one" on Mtv?
[05:17] <canthus13> Yep.
[05:17] <Cheri703> ooo, I think I've heard this one canthus13
[05:17] <dmcglone> that was the very first song I heard since regaining my hearing
[05:17]  * canthus13 saw 'em when they toured with GNR.
[05:18] <canthus13> Cheri703: I've been rediscovering them lately, along with a bunch of other bands I hadn't listened to in years.
[05:19] <Cheri703> nice
[05:19] <dmcglone> I don't have a very big selection
[05:19]  * canthus13 listens to everything.
[05:19] <dmcglone> A lot of my music is from when I was younger in the '70s
[05:20] <dmcglone> ever heard of "the sugar hill gang"
[05:20] <canthus13> Heard of 'em.
[05:20] <dmcglone> I listened to Kenny Rodgers
[05:20] <dmcglone> my all time favorite Meatloaf
[05:20] <dmcglone> Diana ross and the supremes
[05:21] <canthus13> ew.
[05:21] <dmcglone> well I was young
[05:21] <dmcglone> oh yeah don't forget tina turner
[05:21] <dmcglone> haha
[05:22] <canthus13> Heh.
[05:22] <canthus13> I liked her in Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome.
[05:22] <dmcglone> I'm also a really big fan of the piano
[05:22] <dmcglone> so I love Elton John and Billy Joel
[05:23] <dmcglone> theres also Journey
[05:23] <canthus13> Ooo.. and Kiss Off: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gproa6vzgws
[05:23] <canthus13> I like some Journey.
[05:24] <canthus13> Never really liked Elton John... I like Billy Joel, though.
[05:24] <dmcglone> my favorite is Open arms
[05:24] <canthus13> As for piano, Tori Amos rocks.
[05:24] <canthus13> dmcglone: I love the whole Heavy Metal sound track. :)
[05:25] <dmcglone> did you like pink floyd?
[05:25] <canthus13> Some.
[05:25] <dmcglone> I like Elton's song "I'm still standing"
[05:26] <dmcglone> but anything after '88 it's mostly just metallica, misfit, suicidal, and a few others
[05:27] <canthus13> ST.. Wow. That's another one I'll have to dig up. I haven't listened to them in years.
[05:33] <Cheri703> I really hate it when I'm trying to put in all of my purchases, and things don't match up -_- according to the bank site, there's some $37.99 amount that I can't remember...
[05:34] <Cheri703> I just remembered that I didn't grab my receipt at walmart today, but I didn't think it was that much
[05:34] <Cheri703> nvm, I think I figured it out :/ I hate this process ...blah
[05:35] <Unit193> gnucash?
[05:35] <Cheri703> yuppers
[05:36]  * Cheri703 put up our christmas tree tonight
[05:36] <Cheri703> took about 2 minutes
[05:36] <Cheri703> it's a 3ish foot pre-lit artificial :)
[05:36] <Unit193> We might about tomorrow...
[05:36] <Cheri703> going to decorate it when I figure out what I did with the ornaments
[05:37]  * canthus13 is debating putting up a tree this year.
[05:37] <Cheri703> we didn't last year, we just didn't bother with it
[05:37] <Cheri703> this year we're having people over for the holiday, so figure we might as well ;)
[05:38] <Cheri703> this is actually the first time since we've been married that we've had people come to our home around the holidays (not ON christmas, but the day after, and my parents will be here for the weekend)
[05:38] <Cheri703> maybe even the first time since we started dating...
[05:38] <Cheri703> oh, and random note, today (thursday) is our 4 year anniversary! crazy
[05:38] <canthus13> Ah. Congrats.   We've always gone to my parents or hers.
[05:39] <Cheri703> it is 1.0 degrees f right now...
[05:39] <Cheri703> dang
[05:39] <dmcglone> I am off to bed
[05:39] <canthus13> Wow. it's 9 here.
[05:39] <Cheri703> night
[05:39] <Cheri703> hope your meeting with matt goes well!
[05:40] <Unit193> I need to go outsite with no coat on!
[05:40] <dmcglone> canthus13: is't 12:40
[05:40] <dmcglone> anyway, Night all
[05:44] <Unit193> Not too bad out (except the snow on my arm)
[05:45] <Unit193> Trash day tomorrow
[05:46] <Cheri703> why no coat?
[05:46] <canthus13> It's still above 0.
[05:46] <Unit193> Takes too long to put it on...
[05:47] <Cheri703> I've been known to take twice as long in the bundling up as in the actual being outside
[05:47] <Unit193> I'm a freak....what can I say?
[05:51]  * canthus13 has been known to dash out to the mailbox in his boxers in below 0 weather...
[05:52] <Unit193> not done boxers, have done no shoes....
[05:52] <canthus13> Gotta have shoes for snow.
[05:53] <Unit193> Not really... just move fast
[05:56] <canthus13> Heh.
[05:58]  * Cheri703 has LOTS of cold weather gear
[05:58] <Cheri703> I get breathing problems when the air is too cold
[05:58] <Unit193> Yeah, I'm very crazy (just went to get mail, again no coat)
[05:59] <Cheri703> that's part of the problem, I get a REALLY bad uncontrollable cough when the air is below a certain temp, which isn't even that cold :/ so I have to keep my core warm, and I have an awesome facemask for when it's stupid cold, it actually uses your exhaled breath to heat the air you inhale
[05:59] <Cheri703> takes a bit of getting used to, feels like breathing under a blanket at first
[06:01] <Unit193> I don't do well with the cars heater... nasty headache
[06:02] <Cheri703> yeah, I warm up the car and then promptly turn it to "cool air or slightly above"
[19:16] <canthus13> http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/whitejigsaw/whitejigsaw.html <-- this is making my brain itch.  on 12x9 right now.
[19:56] <Unit193> Getting good at it?
[20:38] <canthus13> I'm still working on 12x9...
[21:59] <BiosElement> Hmmm are we skipping the 22's ubuntu hour this month? ANyone happen to know since I'm too lazy to look? >.<
[22:00] <greyfox-> The next one is scheduled for the 29th, and it's still on
[22:01] <BiosElement> Ahh, cool thanks. Gotta remember to swing down there with the shiny chrome laptop ^_^
[22:01] <greyfox-> Ah, very good. I would like to see that
[22:01] <BiosElement> It's pretty slick really
[22:02] <BiosElement> Current annoyance is the password = your gaccount password...which in my case is over 30 chars long randomly generated >.<
[22:02] <BiosElement> Not a problem but it's not something I'm gonna type often in public heh
[22:02] <greyfox-> haha
[22:02] <greyfox-> I guess it must be all in lower-case, then?
[22:02] <BiosElement> After having an account cracked once, I'm paranoid. :P
[22:03] <BiosElement> Nope, it's mixed case
[22:03] <BiosElement> With numbers.
[22:03] <greyfox-> hmm
[22:03] <greyfox-> ok
[22:04] <BiosElement> Awesome... :http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2010/12/16/story-columbus-dunbar-road-robbers-fall-asleep.html?sid=102


[15:03] <Jane_ux> hi every1
[15:03] <Jane_ux> heyy ogra, are you there??
[15:04] <Jane_ux> is there anyway to each time an user logout the home folder is restored to its initial state???
[15:04] <Jane_ux> its for the use in an public machine, like a kiosk terminal
[15:07] <Jane_ux> i guess i can create a script that creates the backup image(s) of the public user account(s).
[15:08] <Jane_ux> and then write a boot script that restores the backup image(s) of the public user account
[15:08] <Jane_ux> i am in the right way???
[16:43] <Jane_ux> hi
[16:43] <Jane_ux> I want to restore the public user home folder each time the computer reboots
[16:44] <Jane_ux> i created the following script
[16:44] <Jane_ux> #!/bin/sh # Restore script cd /home tar xvfz /home/restore_user.tar.gz
[16:44] <Jane_ux> #!/bin/sh # Restore script cd /home tar xvfz /home/restore_guest.tar.gz
[16:45] <Jane_ux> and i stored it in the /etc/init.d folder
[16:45] <Jane_ux> i restarted the computer but it doesnt seem to work
[16:45] <Jane_ux> any idea?
[16:46] <Jane_ux> i must save the script as .sh file???
[17:41] <Jane_ux> how can i execute an script when an ltsp user logou??
[17:43] <Jane_ux> or at login


[12:58] <mdke> Simon80: either that or filing a bug
[12:58] <Simon80> too late :D
[12:58] <mdke> :)
[01:16] <Simon80> anyone in here have strong feelings about the pbuilder-distribution.sh file? My idea sort of supersedes it, so I was planning on changing the docs to recommend this, and only briefly mention that script so that people can choose to investigate it if they prefer
[01:16] <Simon80> and by sort of, I mean that by adding a few lines to a pbuilderrc, one ca automate the usage of multiple pbuilder tarballs, but preserve the ability to use pdebuild
[01:17] <Simon80> unlike that script
[01:17] <Simon80> I guess I'll find out if there's any disagreement when I mail my patch
[01:18] <mdke> Simon80: the person to talk to is Jordan Mantha (Laserjock)
[01:18] <mdke> he'll hopefully see your mail
[01:18] <Simon80> ok
[01:19] <Simon80> I'll just wait for that
[01:20] <mdke> if he doesn't tickle him a bit
[01:20] <mdke> he's at the conference right now so wait for a few days
[01:20] <Simon80> ah
[01:20] <Simon80> I'll, I was just going to file it off to the doc mailing list anyhow
[01:20] <Simon80> no rush
[01:21] <Simon80> it's up to you guys how fast you act on it
[01:23] <mdke> thanks for your work
[01:23] <Simon80> welcome
[01:26] <Simon80> I wanted to use pbuilder with both ubuntu and debian, but the existing method on the page wouldn't be able to work with pdebuild, so I'm fixing that
[01:40] <crimsun> mdke: are you able to rename https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/DapperPreperation to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/DapperPreparation , please?
[01:41] <Flannel> crimsun: Those are both the same
[01:41] <crimsun> what's the same?
[01:41] <Flannel> crimsun: both your URLs
[01:41] <Flannel> oh
[01:41] <crimsun> uh huh.
[01:41] <Flannel> fixed the spelling, gotcha
[01:42] <Flannel> crimsun: while we're talking about housekeeping, can you alias !studio to !ubuntustudio?
[01:42] <crimsun> Flannel: I don't head up that, sorry.
[01:44] <crimsun> Flannel: I think you need to ask in #ubuntu-ops
[01:45] <Flannel> crimsun: yeah, I just know you're an op, so you could do it.  No worries
[02:13] <Simon80> alright, I just fired off the email without joining the list, so feel free to look for it now
[02:13] <Simon80> in hindsight, I should have just joined, to save you the trouble
[02:13] <Simon80> I think I'll do that
[02:14] <Simon80> so nevermind
[11:28] <mdke> crimsun: do you still need anything?
[11:29] <crimsun> mdke: well, _MMA_ was needing that page rename for Ubuntu Studio
[11:29] <crimsun> mdke: (I was just relaying it.)
[11:29] <mdke> crimsun: I'm still not clear what page needs renaming to what though
[11:29] <mdke> ah, I see it
[11:29] <crimsun> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/DapperPreperation to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/DapperPreparation
[11:29] <mdke> done
[11:30] <crimsun> thanks!
[11:30] <mdke> crimsun: you doing ok?
[11:30] <crimsun> mdke: yep, and yourself?
[11:30] <mdke> very well thanks. Pretty busy lately but ok
[11:31] <crimsun> hear, hear
[11:33] <mdke> hiya joachim-n
[11:34] <joachim-n> hi mdke


[16:34] <Kilos> we gotta find all them indians that are supposed to be here
[16:34] <Kilos> right pavlushka ?
[16:34] <pavlushka> Kilos: its PK!
[16:35] <Kilos> oh yeah
[16:35] <Kilos> we gotta find the missing pakistanis
[16:35] <Kilos> they can come chat here on cricket days for starters
[16:36] <pavlushka> good idea, !
[16:37] <Kilos> pity all you guys dont play rugby as well
[16:45] <pavlushka> lol
[16:47] <Kilos> i wish all you different countries could be friendlier towards each other as well