[00:09] <jjohansen> daishadar: most things will still work
[00:10] <jjohansen> daishadar: the ubuntu specific patches provide features, drivers, and fixes that are not upstream yet, and in some cases will never be upstream but are useful in their current state for our users
[00:11] <jjohansen> eg. aufs is used to provide union mounts for the livecds and schroots
[00:12] <jjohansen> ndiswrapper lets users fall back to windows wireless drivers
[00:13] <daishadar> i see... so they may be things i notice but they should be relatively minor, depending on what features i'm using
[00:13] <jjohansen> AppArmor provides the default MAC, but if you boot without things will work you just won't have the extra restrictions on some applications
[00:14] <daishadar> the other problem is that i will lose binary drivers (e.g. nvidia), right?  but i should be able to download those from the manufacturer's website...
[00:15] <jjohansen> right you loose prepackaged binary drivers, but with some digging you can find the source stubs and blobs and compile them
[00:15] <jjohansen> where you get them just depends
[00:15] <jjohansen> usually from the manufactures website or out of ubuntu DKMS packages
[00:18] <daishadar> ok, great, so it sounds like it's reasonable.  i'm thinking about buying a thinkpad t410s laptop but apparently there are major issues if you aren't running 2.6.34
[00:21] <ogasawara> jjohansen: \o/, just saw your email
[00:24] <jjohansen> 5
[00:24] <jjohansen> hehe, lets try that again
[00:24] <jjohansen> 5
[00:24] <jjohansen>   \o
[00:25] <ogasawara> will definitely have to highlight that in the release meeting tomorrow
[00:26] <jjohansen> ogasawara: I'll get you a request pull out as soon as I rebase and verify
[00:26] <ogasawara> jjohansen: cool, thanks
[00:36] <jjohansen> ogasawara: I have a couple kernel related work items that won't make tomorrows freeze but may make feature freeze deadline, should I just push those items out now?
[00:37] <ogasawara> jjohansen: yah, go ahead and push them out to be safe
[00:37] <jjohansen> okay
[00:45] <bjf[afk]> jjohansen, that's fantastic, good job
[00:45] <jjohansen> thanks :)
[01:56]  * bjf[afk] wants to scream about the build scripts
[02:31] <xsaiddx> hello guys
[02:31] <xsaiddx> i got this on start up
[02:31] <xsaiddx> http://pastebin.com/kgSrGqe5
[02:31] <xsaiddx> anyone ca help me pls
[02:33] <jjohansen> xsaiddx: ubuntu kernel? or other?
[02:33] <jjohansen> was this a clean install or an upgrade?
[02:33] <xsaiddx> jjohansen, sorry
[02:34] <xsaiddx> i didnt get you
[02:35] <jjohansen> basically there is not enough information to figure out what is happening
[02:35] <xsaiddx> no i removed plymouth and it takes off mostly all of the packges
[02:35] <jjohansen> ugh, uhmm yeah that is a problem
[02:36] <xsaiddx> so i had to install an image kernel  and follwin that tip in the end of it it says
[02:36] <xsaiddx> unlink sbin/init so i got this message i showed you
[02:36] <xsaiddx> and b4 i had acces only to my console
[02:36] <xsaiddx> but like this xsaiddx@none
[02:37] <jjohansen> hrmm, what do you still have access too?
[02:37] <jjohansen> for ex. can you reinstall plymouth
[02:37] <xsaiddx> no
[02:38] <xsaiddx> now only acces to see that nice message and thats it
[02:38] <xsaiddx> : D
[02:38] <xsaiddx> i can go live via a cd and do link sbin/init ?
[02:38] <jjohansen> hrmm can you boot a livecd, or usbstick?
[02:38] <xsaiddx> wud it work
[02:38] <xsaiddx> yeh
[02:38] <jk-> xsaiddx: you could try booting with init=/bin/sh
[02:39] <xsaiddx> uhm how cus i cant type anythin
[02:39] <xsaiddx> or you mean from the live cd
[02:39] <jk-> xsaiddx: at the grub prompt
[02:39] <xsaiddx> theres no grub now
[02:39] <jjohansen> hold down the left shift key at boot
[02:39] <jk-> shift to get the grub menu
[02:39] <jjohansen> has to be left shift
[02:39] <jk-> select the right boot option, press 'e' to edit it
[02:40] <jk-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelBoot
[02:40] <jk-> instead of step 3, add 'init=/bin/bash'
[02:40] <jk-> (probably remove 'splash' and 'quiet' too actually)
[02:42] <jk-> which 'tip' were you following that told you to remove init?
[02:43] <xsaiddx> jk ill link you
[02:43] <xsaiddx> http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35, this
[02:43]  * jk- looks
[02:43] <xsaiddx> jk btw where ishud type that init
[02:44] <jk-> xsaiddx: what is on your screen at the moment?
[02:45] <xsaiddx> jk??
[02:45] <xsaiddx> sory didnt get you
[02:45] <jk-> what do you have on your screen now?
[02:45] <jk-> are you in grub?
[02:45] <xsaiddx> no im on xp
[02:46] <xsaiddx> now
[02:46] <xsaiddx> when i start lubuntu theres no grub
[02:46] <jk-> xsaiddx: instructions are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelBoot
[02:46] <xsaiddx> jsut that message i shpwed you
[02:47] <jk-> jjohansen: hm, wiki says 'escape' for some reason
[02:47] <jjohansen> ????, its always been left shift for me
[02:47] <jk-> jjohansen: i blame manjo :)
[02:47] <xsaiddx> jk well hit esc then what
[02:48] <jjohansen> yeah its got to be manjo
[02:48] <jk-> xsaiddx: then read the next step
[02:48] <jk-> xsaiddx: if escape doesn't work, try left-shift instead.
[02:48] <xsaiddx> yeh but still didnt get it sorry
[02:49] <xsaiddx> can you tell me what to do
[02:49] <jk-> xsaiddx: do you have important stuff on that machine? maybe a reinstall is besst
[02:49] <xsaiddx> yeh
[02:50] <xsaiddx> and i  dont like the idea to reinstall all
[02:50] <jk-> 1) reboot the computer
[02:51] <xsaiddx> yeh ten
[02:51] <xsaiddx> then
[02:51] <jk-> 2) after the BIOS screen goes away, press left shift
[02:51] <jk-> and hold it down
[02:51] <jk-> you should get the grub screen
[02:51] <xsaiddx> then
[02:52] <jk-> is this a separate computer? can you do this as we talk?
[02:52] <xsaiddx> no i have dual boot
[02:53] <jk-> so you're going to remember this stuff?
[02:53] <xsaiddx> you can tell me im takin notes tho
[02:54] <xsaiddx> hello jk
[02:56] <xsaiddx> jk-, hello
[02:56] <jk-> xsaiddx: just a sec
[02:56] <xsaiddx> ok
[02:57] <xsaiddx> sure
[02:57] <jk-> xsaiddx: print this out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelBoot
[02:57] <jk-> xsaiddx: before you press 'b', add "init=/bin/bash"
[02:58] <xsaiddx> dude my english sux and i didnt get that doc so thats why iwas askin your help clearly
[02:58] <jk-> I've just re-written the doc for you
[02:59] <xsaiddx> where i can add that init.... ?
[02:59] <jk-> xsaiddx: however, you will need to do a few more things after you've done that boot, and I can't tell you what you need to do there
[02:59] <xsaiddx> why i have to tell wht im goin to get so you can kno is it
[02:59] <xsaiddx> i can go and see now and come bk n tell you
[03:00] <jk-> sorry, i don't understand either of those lines. could you rephrase?
[03:00] <xsaiddx> jk-, well im goin to try okies brb please and tnx for ur help
[03:01] <xsaiddx> i said
[03:01] <xsaiddx> you cant tell me wht to do after that
[03:01] <jk-> i would suggest these commands, but I can't be sure:
[03:01] <xsaiddx> cus you need to see wht im goin to have as an error so you can kno the issue
[03:02] <xsaiddx> so i said ican go and come back to tell you
[03:02] <xsaiddx> okies ?
[03:02] <xsaiddx> well im goin now
[03:02] <xsaiddx> but i jst wnana kno when gettin grub when ishall add tat init=...
[03:02] <jk-> apt-get install --reinstall linux-image-generic-$(uname -r)
[03:02] <jk-> xsaiddx: it says where to add it in that document
[03:03] <jk-> sorry, make that:
[03:03] <jk-> apt-get install --reinstall linux-image-$(uname -r)
[03:04] <jk-> i have updated the document with more details. please refresh the page to see the latest version
[03:04] <xsaiddx> ok
[03:05] <jk-> also, apt-get install --reinstall upstart
[03:06] <xsaiddx> ok ill get back to you tnx
[03:06] <xsaiddx> wish me luck
[05:13] <cooloney> ericm: how can i build the upstream kernel for omap without defconfig file?
[05:31] <jk-> cooloney: the defconfigs should still be there, no?
[05:35] <cooloney> jk-: no omap4_panda_defconfig
[05:35] <jk-> ah
[05:35] <jk-> menuconfig? :)
[05:35] <cooloney> and i tried to build the omap kernel from Tony's linux-omap tree
[05:35] <cooloney> it failed
[05:35] <cooloney> weird
[05:36] <cooloney> jk-: yeah, i chose TI OMAP system, it will select omap2/3/4 and build for Panda board as well
[05:46] <cooloney> jk-: my bad. i just turned on ARCH_OMAP. forget to turn off OMAP2 and OMAP3
[05:46] <cooloney> now it is building
[05:58] <jk-> ericm, cooloney: pull request sent, for the debug macro changes
[06:08] <ripps> It looks like l-b-m and linux-meta were merged together, and now linux-meta is held up in NEW. How long before it gets into the repos?
[07:02] <ericm> cooloney, I don't think omap4_panda_defconfig is gonna squeeze into mainline recently
[07:23] <cooloney> ericm: i know, it was enabled in omap_4430sdp_defconfig
[07:24] <cooloney> ericm: i can build the kernel, but doesn't boot on my board. serial port driver is not set to the right one
[07:32] <ericm> cooloney, that always happen, maybe you should change the command line in u-boot
[07:43] <cooloney> ericm: still checking the right config, will let you know the result.
[07:43] <cooloney> ericm: btw, i am trying tony's linux-omap tree instead of linus mainline
[07:43] <ericm> cool
[08:58] <trapmax> anyone experiencing "INFO: task x blocked for more than 120 seconds." messages. In our system it gets triggered when using lvcreate. Started after updating to 2.6.32-24-server -kernel. Workaround?
[08:59] <RAOF> trapmax: That'll happen when something bogs down so much that forward progress doesn't get made fast enough.  I've managed to get almost all my tasks to spit that message when doing a bunch of I/O in btrfs.
[09:00] <trapmax> RAOF: this did not happen before updating to newest kernel
[09:00] <RAOF> I'd guess that what's happening is lvcreate is blocking I/O, and is chomping on long enough to trigger that messsage for your other tasks to trigger the message.
[09:00] <smb> Usually there would be a backtrace about it. To offer more info
[09:01] <trapmax> http://pastebin.com/KUzVGZSQ
[09:01] <smb> Most of the -24 update was ext4 which would not have an impact on lvcreate though
[09:01] <smb> Oh, actually it is ext4 related...
[09:01] <trapmax> we have ext4 environment though
[09:02] <smb> I was just wondering because lvcreate itself does no filesystem
[09:03] <smb> It could be related to the general writeback regression that we are currently seeing with 2.6.32 kernels. Maybe the ext4 update in some cases just makes it happen more often
[09:04] <trapmax> this makes our lvm-snapshot -backup virtually impossible
[09:04] <smb> trapmax, I got some test kernels to try if you want to.
[09:05] <trapmax> production server. not really confident with that option
[09:09] <smb> trapmax, Hm, hard to offer a workaround that way. The ext4 updates are verified to fix some data integrity issues and seem to cause long(er) IO times in your case
[09:09] <smb> the bug in question would be bug 585092
[09:09] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 585092 in linux (Ubuntu) "giant IO delays (affects: 1) (heat: 20)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/585092
[09:10] <smb> As this relates to some syncs done synchronously, I wonder whether issuing manual sync's from the command line change anything
[09:11] <trapmax> we have manual sync runnin with 5s sleep
[09:12] <smb> Hm, ok
[09:15] <smb> trapmax, All the backtraces in your log somehow go through writeback. I am currently trying to get some feedback on the backport of the writeback patches which are in the test kernels. But this will take a bit.
[09:16] <smb> Until then the only thing to play with seems to be the interval of the manual sync. The previous kernels somehow worked but from the tests that were done for the ext4 patches I would not really recommend going back to those old kernel.
[09:19] <trapmax> smb: ack
[09:43] <jjohansen> rebooting
[09:43]  * smb blinks
[10:00] <jjohansen> urghh, don't update!!!
[10:01] <smb> jjohansen, Maverick kernel? Or something else?
[10:01] <jjohansen> many things
[10:01] <jjohansen> seems kernel is broken for networking
[10:01]  * smb thinks jjohansen should be sleeping instead of updating anyway ;-=
[10:01] <jjohansen> theme is broken
[10:02] <jjohansen> gnome panel seems to be broken
[10:02] <smb> Seems everything is ready to alpha3
[10:02] <smb> Have we been doing something in the networking area?
[10:02] <jjohansen> I have a high load almost 50% each cpu, but nothing is showing up via, top, htop etc
[10:03] <jjohansen> the load isn't the kernel as I had to reboot into an older kernel, and it still remains
[10:03] <smb> jjohansen, would perf give more hints?
[10:03] <jjohansen> smb maybe
[10:04] <RAOF> You might need to re-run apt; they're discussing the gtk update which is probably what has caused your “everything broken”
[10:05] <jjohansen> theme is comletely broken too, I had to revert to human :)
[10:06]  * smb likes human. :)
[10:06] <jjohansen> RAOF: already have no dice
[10:06] <RAOF> That, plus a reboot, fixed it for me.  Although I didn't have a high load.
[10:07] <jjohansen> I'm sure it will get sorted out, soon just putting out the warning that now is not a good time to update
[10:08] <jjohansen> smb: do we have a wiki on perf yet
[10:08] <smb> I guess an indication that its not kernel or is would be good to know for Leann on the release meeting
[10:09] <smb> jjohansen, I am not sure. Maybe not
[10:09] <smb> I usually try "perf top" first, that would give an overview on calls
[10:10] <smb> jjohansen, Other than that maybe in some presentation slides from chase
[10:11] <smb> II think the other was a "sudo perf record" paired with a "perf report"
[10:12] <jjohansen> smb: right, but that records a command, I was looking for a way to just get a sampling of all commands and kernel fns
[10:12] <jjohansen> after all what I am seeing is not showing up
[10:13] <smb> Would "sudo perf record -a -f -c 5000" be what you are looking for
[10:14] <smb> The 5000 might be a tad long
[10:14] <jjohansen> maybe
[10:14] <smb> I was stabbing in the dark with the count
[10:15] <smb> Seems already quite long with 50
[10:16] <jjohansen> something is really hammering my system load average 3.28 2.10 1.18
[10:16] <smb> Strangely you would expect it to show up in top if it gets accounted in the load
[10:17] <jjohansen> cpus are varying between 30- 100%, but htop isn't showing
[10:17] <jjohansen> that is it shows the cpu load and the processes are like 7%, 9% etc just small little figures
[10:18] <smb> I thought that one patch from Chase about accounting small runtimes went upstream as well
[10:20] <jjohansen> hrmm, so did I
[10:20] <smb> jjohansen, btw, -c# is not really needed. And i have no clue what it relates to
[10:20] <jjohansen> I think its something to do with panel icons, as they have been slowly showing up, 1 by 1
[10:21] <jjohansen> I now have a wifi icon, and a screen orientation icon, which I didn't before
[10:21] <smb> I see no such thing here. Oh, you mean your load
[10:21] <jjohansen> yeah
[10:22] <smb> So you could try "sudo perf record -f -a", let it run a bit then ctrl-c
[10:22] <smb> Then do "sudo perf report"
[10:23] <jjohansen> yeah, I'll give that a try, as soon as I get perf installed on this machine, the install is crawling
[10:25] <smb> jjohansen, Maybe start it and get some rest? :) I see your continent mostly in the dark...
[10:26] <jjohansen> hehe, no I am going to finish getting a pv-ops kernel together and fix my AA request-pull
[10:28] <smb> jjohansen, *sigh* There is always the next thing to do. ;-)
[10:29] <jjohansen> hehe, yeah but I want this to make kernel freeze for alpha-3 so ...
[10:29] <jjohansen> rebooting
[13:28] <smoser> hi. i'm guessing this is known, but just want to make sure if its not already resolved that someone is looking at it:
[13:28] <smoser> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[13:28] <smoser>   linux-virtual: Depends: linux-image-virtual (= <IP_ADDRESS>.12) but it is not going to be
[13:28] <smoser> installed
[13:28] <smoser> , stderr: E: Broken packages
[13:30] <smb> smoser, Hm, it feels like ringing a bell. Though I am not sure whether this was back in a previous release. Could you send this hint to the kernel-team mailing list as a more permanent reminder?
[13:30] <smoser> this is last night maverick
[13:30] <smoser> the uec build fails due to that.
[13:30] <smoser> i'll send mail.
[13:32] <smb> Ok, thanks. The kernel looked like a recent Maverick. It just sounded familiar but usually I am not so much looking at the bleeding edge. :)
[13:36] <smoser> it seems to me that its fixed now.
[13:38] <smb> Hm, maybe that was just a delay in the archive...
[13:39] <smb> I would not think that someone had a chance to change anything, yet. Though there are some early birds...
[14:43] <smb> tgardner, Re: bug to look at: ok. I have also seen some reports of problems with lvm snapshot since the ext4 patches went into updates. I have not yet looked at the other bug but it seems some changes in ext4 might trigger the bad writeback behaviour or even hangs there. Just fyi
[14:46] <tgardner> smb, ack. you should verify the kernel version they are running to see if there is a strong correlation
[14:48] <diwic> bjf, ping
[14:57] <bjf> diwic, go
[14:58] <diwic> bjf, just wondering what time takashi releases his daily and if your c-o-d's are synced to that
[14:59] <diwic> bjf, but it matters less as launchpad is three days behind. :-(
[14:59] <bjf> diwic, don't know and no
[14:59] <bjf> diwic, let me check
[15:18] <bjf> diwic, i just pushed a source package, i'll look at my cron job to see what's up with that
[15:38] <jjohansen> ogasawara: you about?
[15:39] <ogasawara> jjohansen: yep
[15:40] <ogasawara> jjohansen: saw both your apparmor and pv-ops pull requests, will review and apply momentarily
[15:40] <jjohansen> I am updating specs, and pushing out the pv-on-HVM part of pvops out to next week
[15:40] <ogasawara> jjohansen: ack, sounds good
[15:41] <jjohansen> ogasawara: so the pv-ops one doesn't include pv-on-HVM drivers which is what I am pushing out.
[15:41] <jjohansen> I am putting in an explanation of them
[15:42] <ogasawara> jjohansen: perfect, thanks
[15:48] <jjohansen> ogasawara: check your mail
[15:49] <ogasawara> jjohansen: ack
[15:53] <ogasawara> jjohansen: have you slept yet?
[15:53] <jjohansen> no
[15:53] <ogasawara> jjohansen: go take a nap
[15:54] <jjohansen> soon
[17:08] <jjohansen> -> nap
[17:09] <manjo> nap ?
[17:10] <manjo> jjohansen, you ?
[17:11] <jjohansen> manjo: no its my evil twin
[17:12] <manjo> jjohansen, hmmm that sound more possible :)
[17:12]  * manjo have never seen jjohansen sleep
[17:15] <tgardner> ogasawara, I've a couple of issues with jj's pv-ops pull request. I'll fix 'em up and send you an alternate pull request
[17:16] <ogasawara> tgardner: cool thanks, I haven't had a chance to review yet anyways
[17:16] <ev> Would anyone be willing to add the fix for bug 599569 to the next 10.04 update?  It works perfectly on the two 10.04 systems I've tested it with.
[17:16] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 599569 in linux (Ubuntu) "No kernel support for Sierra Wireless 250U 3G/4G USB Dongle (affects: 4) (heat: 24)" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/599569
[17:17] <tgardner> ev, I think the stable team accepts bribes
[17:17] <ogasawara> looks like stable was CC'd on the upstream patch
[17:18] <ogasawara> so should be coming down the queue already?
[17:18] <ev> name your price and I'll smuggle it it across the border when I go to Debconf tomorrow
[17:18] <smb> If thats true it will come sooner or later
[17:18] <smb> I would need to check the queue
[17:18] <smb> ...
[17:18] <ev> oh, cool
[17:21] <smb> ev, There is a USB: Add PID for Sierra 250U to drivers/usb/serial/sierra.c queued for the next (<IP_ADDRESS>) release from upstream stable
[17:21] <ev> hooray
[17:22] <tgardner> ev, don't hold your breath. it could still take weeks.
[17:22] <ev> well, I've solved the problem for myself (well, my dad really)
[17:23] <ev> I'd just like to make sure it gets solved for others
[17:23] <ev> which seems to be happing, glacial pace or otherwise
[17:23] <ev> :)
[17:52] <cwillu_at_work> iotop reports CONFIG_TASK_DELAY_ACCT not enabled in kernel, cannot determine SWAPIN and IO %
[17:53] <cwillu_at_work> it's one thing to not know I'm missing out, it's quite another when a program tells me I'm missing out :)
[17:55] <jpds> cwillu_at_work: bug #493156.
[17:55] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 493156 in linux (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Please enable CONFIG_TASK_DELAY_ACCT (affects: 55) (dups: 3) (heat: 232)" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493156
[17:56] <tgardner> cwillu_at_work, use maverick, or the LTS backport kernel on Lucid
[17:56] <cwillu_at_work> okay, thanks
[17:56]  * cwillu_at_work reads the relevant threads
[18:16] <cwillu_at_work> also, is there any way to make swap act... sane? by which I mean:  at the end of my day, everything is running smoothly:  gedit, inkscape, firefox, they all run without hiccups.  However, at the start of my day, I have to wait 5-15 seconds at fairly random intervals as those applications hang, presumably swapping back in on demand
[18:19] <cwillu_at_work> case in point:  inkscape just spent the last thirty seconds paging in at around 1mb/s;  however there was no disk write traffic at the same time:  to me, this implies that memory is available, but the allocation policy is buggered
[18:26] <tgardner> ogasawara, I reset jj
[18:26] <tgardner> I resent jj's pull request
[18:27] <ogasawara> tgardner: ack.  my tree is somehow corrupted at the moment so am getting it fixed back up first
[18:27] <bjf> anyone else notice the daily live isos have not changed for 3 days?
[18:28] <tgardner> oh, bummer. bad disk, or fat fingers?
[18:28] <ogasawara> tgardner: I have a feeling it might be the disk :(
[18:29] <tgardner> ogasawara, back to the trusty, but ancient, laptop
[18:36] <sconklin> I'm bailing for the rest of the day, I feel terrible. See you Monday!
[18:53]  * tgardner lunches
[19:40]  * ogasawara runs errands, back in an hour
[21:10]  * bjf taking a headache break
[21:48] <jjohansen> ogasawara: hrmm, what happend that my patches needed to be reset?
[21:49] <ogasawara> jjohansen: looked like just minor commit log changes that tim made a small tweak with updateconfigs
[21:50] <jjohansen> hrrm, I'll poke at what he did, I did do a rebase that did a 3 way merge, perhaps that did something?
[22:00] <jjohansen> ogasawara: is there anything you would like help on, or should I dive back into pv-on-HVM drivers?
[22:00] <ogasawara> jjohansen: nope, looking good on my side.  just waiting for test builds on ports to finish before I push all the bits
[22:01] <jjohansen> okay
[22:10] <manjo> jjohansen, you did not sleep enough
[22:11] <jjohansen> manjo: ? really I thought almost 5 hours was pretty good
[22:11] <jjohansen> well 4.5h maybe
[22:12] <manjo> jjohansen, good for 4.5 days atleast!
[22:12] <manjo> :)
[22:12] <jjohansen> :)
[22:21] <manjo> adios amigos .. have a good weekend
[23:26] <cwillu_at_work> What's the trick to run make-kpkg in a freshly clone'd git repo?
[23:26] <cwillu_at_work> It's complaining about a missing files list file, which I can't imagine I have to actually build by hand


[18:13] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-xkb-plugin 0.8.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-xkb-plugin-0-8-0-released-tp49414.html (by Viktor Odintsev)


[00:14] <infinity> stgraber: Built now.
[00:17] <stgraber> yeah!
[00:17] <stgraber> thanks
[00:22] <bdmurray> stgraber: bug 949682 is a hardware error correct?
[00:22] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 949682 in apport "Can not create bug report - no way to go around faulty apport decision" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/949682
[00:23] <stgraber> bdmurray: yeah, drive error when reading the squashfs apparently
[00:24] <stgraber> bdmurray: so most likely bad media, could be bad iso and in some limited cases memory issues (at least the squashfs ones can appear on low memory systems)
[00:24] <stgraber> but yeah, nothing we can do in either case
[00:25] <bdmurray> but if the 'integrity test' said its okay then its likely memory?
[00:25] <bdmurray> or is the integrity test more limited
[00:27] <infinity> The seek, sense, and medium errors don't seem squash related at all.
[00:27] <infinity> Could just be a jiggling USB key with sketchy contacts.
[00:27] <infinity> Or anything like that.
[10:58] <CIA-32> partman-auto-loop: cjwatson * r61 ubuntu/ (autopartition-loop debian/changelog): Close mount's fd 3 so that it doesn't inherit a debconf file descriptor.
[11:03] <CIA-32> partman-auto-loop: cjwatson * r62 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 0ubuntu21
[15:11] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5242 ubiquity/ (tests/test_misc.py ubiquity/misc.py): Fully port set_indicator_keymaps to Xkl and re-enable unit test, still needs porting to gsettings though.
[15:12] <stgraber> will do the gsettings part in a bit, then add the changelog entry
[15:14] <cjwatson> right, partitioning excitement coming up
[15:15] <CIA-32> partman-auto: cjwatson * r622 ubuntu/ (40 files in 14 dirs):
[15:15] <CIA-32> partman-auto: Reuse existing swap partitions and EFI System Partitions, if any, rather
[15:15] <CIA-32> partman-auto: than creating new ones (LP: #311299).
[15:15]  * stgraber is glad he doesn't have to deal with these bugs ;)
[15:22] <CIA-32> partman-auto: cjwatson * r623 ubuntu/debian/ (66 files in 2 dirs): Update Ubuntu-specific translations from Launchpad.
[15:23] <CIA-32> partman-auto: cjwatson * r624 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 93ubuntu20
[15:36] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5243 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog tests/test_misc.py ubiquity/misc.py): Port indicator to gsettings, update test and add changelog entry
[15:37] <stgraber> cjwatson: I'll add the bluetooth fix now, then release a new ubiquity to pick up these fixes and the new partman* packages, so likely in 2-3 hours, does that work for you?
[15:43] <cjwatson> sure
[16:06] <CIA-32> netcfg: cjwatson * r1296 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog netcfg-common.c):
[16:06] <CIA-32> netcfg: Fix detection of empty domains when writing to /etc/hosts in the case
[16:06] <CIA-32> netcfg: where there is no static IP address (LP: #950664).
[16:08] <CIA-32> netcfg: cjwatson * r1297 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.68ubuntu14
[16:19] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5244 ubiquity/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Add ubiquity-bluetooth-agent
[16:20] <stgraber> now to actually write code using it ;)
[16:30] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5245 ubiquity/ (bin/ubiquity-dm debian/changelog): Start bluetooth-applet from ubiquity-dm
[16:43] <bdmurray> cjwatson: rick mcbride seems to have clones of the system in bug 949992 if that helps
[16:43] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 949992 in update-manager "Upgrade from Lucid to Precise results in broken grub configuration" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/949992
[16:44] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5246 ubiquity/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Add copy_bluetooth_config copying /var/lib/bluetooth/ to /target/var/lib/bluetooth/
[16:45] <stgraber> ok, that should be it for ubiquity and bluetooth, just need to update casper now
[16:46] <cjwatson> bdmurray: it looks like he set this up deliberately
[16:46] <cjwatson> bdmurray: the debconf database shows that the following question was presented to him at some point:
[16:46] <cjwatson> _Description: Continue without installing GRUB?
[16:46] <cjwatson>  You chose not to install GRUB to any devices. If you continue, the boot
[16:46] <cjwatson>  loader may not be properly configured, and when this computer next starts
[16:46] <cjwatson>  up it will use whatever was previously in the boot sector. If there is an
[16:46] <cjwatson>  earlier version of GRUB 2 in the boot sector, it may be unable to load
[16:46] <cjwatson>  modules or handle the current configuration file.
[16:46] <cjwatson>  .
[16:46] <cjwatson>  If you are already using a different boot loader and want to carry on
[16:47] <cjwatson>  doing so, or if this is a special environment where you do not need a boot
[16:47] <cjwatson>  loader, then you should continue anyway. Otherwise, you should install
[16:47] <cjwatson>  GRUB somewhere.
[16:47]  * cjwatson <- limited sympathy :)
[16:51] <bdmurray> cjwatson: ah because install_devices is empty?
[16:51] <cjwatson> yeah
[16:51] <cjwatson> followed up, anyway
[16:51] <cjwatson> I suspect it will be either invalid or due to some old bug
[17:02] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5247 ubiquity/ubiquity/misc.py: Fix remaining call to gconftools in misc.
[17:06] <stgraber> right, casper uploaded, tests pass fine and pyflakes is happy, I guess I'll release a new ubiquity then and do some more testing over the weekend with the new build
[17:06] <CIA-32> ubiquity: stgraber * r5248 ubiquity/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog): releasing version 2.9.26ubuntu1
[17:10] <stgraber> doh, wrong version number ... fixing ... (I really should stop using bound branches ;))
[17:12] <stgraber> or change my workflow and do my final check before the debdiff
[17:13] <cjwatson> yeah, I do final check, then 'ubuntu-release' which is http://paste.ubuntu.com/876283/
[17:26] <superm1> stgraber: ev was right, ubiquity-dm is becoming it's own OS :)
[17:27] <stgraber> superm1: yeah ;)


[17:36] <charlie-tca> Had to manually start orca today to try an install; zeitgeist-daemon is crashing my installation process today
[17:36] <charlie-tca> the installation fails to go past the second page, bug 722235
[17:36] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 722235 in zeitgeist "zeitgeist-daemon crashed with OSError in makedirs(): [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/ubuntu/.local/share/zeitgeist'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/722235


[01:00] <NCommander> Is there any repo software that handles udebs properly and sanely beside dak and soyuz?
[01:06] <NCommander> cjwatson, ^
[01:19] <TheMuso> NCommander: cjwatson would be in bed now. As for software, what about falcon?
[01:20] <NCommander> Does it properly create the installer-*arch* dist files?
[01:20] <TheMuso> NCommander: I don't know, I just know it can allow you to create an archive.
[11:02] <cjwatson> NCommander: afraid I have no idea; when I need third-party archives I use dpkg-scanpackages or apt-ftparchive :-) I've never managed a big third-party archive
[11:03] <cjwatson> NCommander: I would be surprised if any software other than dak and Soyuz processed raw-installer uploads correctly (for installer-$ARCH); I wrote the code for both of those and I guess you could rip it out of dak
[11:06] <CIA-3> tasksel: cjwatson * r1387 ubuntu/ (Makefile debian/changelog): Point Ubuntu task update script at jaunty.
[11:54] <CIA-3> tasksel: cjwatson * r1388 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog ubuntu-seeds.pl):
[11:54] <CIA-3> tasksel: Add an ubuntu-tasks/README file to explain that the files in
[11:54] <CIA-3> tasksel: ubuntu-tasks/ are autogenerated.
[11:56] <CIA-3> tasksel: cjwatson * r1389 ubuntu/ (Makefile debian/changelog): Remove obsolete kubuntu-kde4 tasks.
[11:59] <CIA-3> tasksel: cjwatson * r1390 ubuntu/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
[11:59] <CIA-3> tasksel: Update Ubuntu tasks from seeds, renaming mobile-mobile to
[11:59] <CIA-3> tasksel: mobile-netbook-remix, adding mobile-live, adjusting description of
[11:59] <CIA-3> tasksel: mythbuntu-live, and removing Seeds field from mythbuntu-live.
[12:01] <CIA-3> tasksel: cjwatson * r1391 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 2.73ubuntu13
[13:45] <CIA-3> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2961 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog scripts/install.py): Make sure that only one of grub and lilo is installed (LP: #314004).
[14:08] <CIA-3> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1016 ubuntu/debian/changelog:
[14:08] <CIA-3> debian-installer: No-change rebuild with new kernel, including some crypto bits built as
[14:08] <CIA-3> debian-installer: modules again, and with any luck enough support to let us build on
[14:08] <CIA-3> debian-installer: armel.
[15:17] <CIA-3> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1017 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20081029ubuntu9
[15:51] <tjaalton> alternate installer stops at the partitioner, shows a help screen and selecting 'continue' only brings it back
[15:57] <saispo> cjwatson: debian-installer_20070308ubuntu40.7 will be moved into hardy-updates ?
[15:58] <cjwatson> at some point yes
[15:58] <cjwatson> tjaalton: logs?
[15:58] <saispo> cjwatson: no idea when ? :)
[16:00] <cjwatson> saispo: it needs the corresponding kernel to be moved to hardy-updates first, which was blocked on verification of a whole load of SRU bugs last I checked
[16:02] <saispo> i don't understand somethings... i need to add proposed to debian-cd for building a good cd. if i not add proposed it use the kernel 2.6.24-19 and have 2.6.24-22 modules
[16:02] <saispo> (on the cd) why ?
[16:03] <saispo> normaly i just have main, update and security for building my cd
[16:04] <cjwatson> that should have been fixed a little while back; the debian-installer corresponding to -22 was moved to hardy-updates
[16:04] <cjwatson> few days ago, I think
[16:05] <saispo> oh ok :)
[16:05] <saispo> maybe my mirror have not catched it
[16:05] <saispo> thks
[16:09] <tjaalton> cjwatson: http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/foo/partman http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/foo/syslog
[16:10] <tjaalton> neither have anything suspicious
[16:10] <tjaalton> (the wget error isn't)
[16:10] <cjwatson> tjaalton: you might need to run with DEBCONF_DEBUG=developer
[16:11] <tjaalton> yeah, will try
[16:15] <tjaalton> cjwatson: ok I found out why it fails.. it didn't detect the disk
[16:16] <cjwatson> ah, that would do it
[16:16] <tjaalton> only the card reader
[16:16] <cjwatson> which would explain why it didn't give you an error
[16:16] <tjaalton> yep
[16:20] <tjaalton> now the obvious question, why does it fail?-)
[16:20]  * cjwatson blames the kernel, as usual for hardware detection problems :)
[16:20] <cjwatson> (once in a blue moon this turns out to be wrong)
[16:22] <tjaalton> hmm ok, I'll just leave it there for now
[17:09] <kirkland> cjwatson: \o/
[17:09] <kirkland> cjwatson: today's iso works for me, encrypted home directory
[17:10] <cjwatson> yay
[17:10] <kirkland> cjwatson: has the kernel module/built-in dust settled?
[17:10] <kirkland> cjwatson: or am i still working because the modules are built-in?
[17:10] <cjwatson> the CD you're using predates the build of d-i against the new kernel with those modules built-in
[17:10] <cjwatson> so partman-crypto will still fail
[17:11] <cjwatson> tomorrow's image will be the real test I think
[17:11] <kirkland> cjwatson: cool, i'll pull again tomorrow
[17:11] <kirkland> evand: fwiw, the encrypted home setup on the server daily cd finally works
[17:11] <kirkland> evand: it's probably time to revisit the graphical installer enablement
[17:11] <evand> hooray
[17:12] <kirkland> evand: or, perhaps after tomorow's "real test", per cjwatson's last comment
[17:12] <evand> mpt: any thoughts on the UI for that?
[17:12] <cjwatson> kirkland: graphical installer> blocked on figuring out the gtk/directfb bustage
[17:12] <cjwatson> kirkland: assuming you mean gtk d-i
[17:12] <kirkland> cjwatson: no, ubiquity
[17:12] <cjwatson> oh, what, seriously?
[17:12] <kirkland> cjwatson: or whatever the handler is for the desktop installer
[17:13] <cjwatson> how are you going to have it install packages?
[17:13] <cjwatson> ubiquity's not really designed for flexibility in terms of what gets installed ...
[17:13]  * kirkland yields to evand
[17:13] <cjwatson> and in particular has no hooks into debootstrap or anything like that for base system installation, so you'd need a live filesystem
[17:14] <cjwatson> indeed you'd need one anyway to run ubiquity in
[17:14] <kirkland> cjwatson: i figured if space on the CD is an issue, such that ecryptfs-utils won't fit, i was going ask if it could be added to the DVD installer?
[17:14] <cjwatson> which seems like it'd crowd a bunch of other stuff off the CD?
[17:14] <cjwatson> oh, hang on
[17:14] <cjwatson> I thought you meant enabling ubiquity on the server CD
[17:14] <cjwatson> you mean enabling ecryptfs in ubiquity, don't you :)
[17:14]  * cjwatson belays panic
[17:14] <kirkland> cjwatson: yessir :-)
[17:15]  * kirkland let's out a laugh
[17:15] <kirkland> cjwatson missed a lot at UDS :-)
[17:15] <cjwatson> you never know what people are going to come up with ;-)
[17:15] <kirkland> cjwatson: as you requested, we discussed a bit of the actual interface with mpt at UDS
[17:16] <kirkland> cjwatson: he drew up a few picture boards
[17:16] <kirkland> cjwatson: evand and i looked at it
[17:16] <cjwatson> it's a checkbox and an initially-hidden password entry box, isn't it?
[17:16] <kirkland> cjwatson: i actually have some ideas on paper (not yet in code) for how to do a migration of a non-encrypted-directory to encrypt-my-home
[17:17] <kirkland> cjwatson: if space really became a blocker, i think it could be something we could empower users to "turn on" after install
[17:17] <kirkland> cjwatson: well, a little different than that
[17:17] <kirkland> cjwatson: for one thing, we're going to autogenerate the mount passphrase
[17:17] <kirkland> cjwatson: simplifies our validation thereof
[17:18] <cjwatson> I don't think disk space is a major problem for ecryptfs-utils
[17:18] <kirkland> cjwatson: and re: checkbox, it will need to operate a little more like a radio button, mutually exclusive with the AutoLogin feature
[17:18] <cjwatson> OK
[17:18] <kirkland> cjwatson: it might still look like a checkbox, but checking one of those two will need to uncheck the other
[17:18] <kirkland> cjwatson: which, technically is how a radio button works, i suppose
[17:19] <cjwatson> presumably it could be made to work with autologin, it's just kinda stupid?
[17:19] <kirkland> cjwatson: but i think mpt frowned upon radio buttons
[17:19] <cjwatson> radio buttons here feel a bit weird to me given that they aren't really obviously connected (to an end user)
[17:19] <kirkland> cjwatson: hmm, i don't think encrypted home could work with autologin ...  encrypted ~/Private can work with autologin
[17:20] <kirkland> cjwatson: for encrypted home to work with autologin, we'd need some generic skeleton for gnome
[17:20] <cjwatson> sure
[17:20] <mpt> evand, my first request was to keep it out of the installer. Failing that, I drew up a couple of possible layouts, but I don't have those drawings here a.t.m.
[17:20] <kirkland> cjwatson: i haven't really thought that through
[17:20] <kirkland> cjwatson: but encrypting Private + autologin is actually a really cool combination, the way I set up my parent's laptop
[17:20] <mpt> evand, oh wait, yes I do. One of them uses radio buttons:
[17:21] <kirkland> cjwatson: allows them to secure some stuff, and enter a passphrase on accessing that
[17:21] <mpt> ( ) Log in as freddo automatically
[17:21] <mpt> ( ) Require a password to log in
[17:21] <mpt> ( ) Require a password to log in and to decrypt your home folder
[17:21] <cjwatson> why doesn't home directory encryption belong in the installer? it seems like the sort of thing you naturally want to do strictly before doing anything potentially sensitive in the directory
[17:21] <mpt> or something like that
[17:21] <cjwatson> which would lead to it being an option in (a) the installer and (b) users-admin
[17:22] <mpt> cjwatson, firstly because you might install Ubuntu months or *years* before you realize you're going to be doing something sensitive in your home folder.
[17:22] <cjwatson> mpt: I agree that it also needs to be something you can convert to afterwards (assuming that's practical)
[17:22] <mpt> cjwatson, secondly because you might not be the user who installed Ubuntu on this computer.
[17:22] <cjwatson> which means that oem-config might want to allow it
[17:22] <kirkland> cjwatson: that's on my plate, "Live migration to encrypting home" was something sabdfl specifically asked me to figure out
[17:22] <cjwatson> again, doesn't really seem to indicate against the installer providing the option
[17:23] <kirkland> cjwatson: i think i can solve it with a couple of rsync's
[17:23] <cjwatson> kirkland: have you tested that the bits from /etc/skel are copied into the encrypted home directory rather than into the underlying unmounted directory?
[17:23] <kirkland> cjwatson: yup
[17:23] <cjwatson> ok
[17:24] <kirkland> cjwatson: working beautifully in today's iso ;-)
[17:24] <mpt> cjwatson, true, but I think that's a slippery slope which the "Who are you?" page goes a little way down
[17:24] <NCommander> cjwatson, how's d-i on ARM coming?
[17:25] <kirkland> cjwatson: i have a 600M kvm image i can upload to people.ubuntu.com, if you'd like to see
[17:25] <cjwatson> kirkland: down a 600Kbit pipe? probably not :-)
[17:25] <kirkland> cjwatson: ;-)
[17:25] <mpt> cjwatson, for example, if Users & Groups gets the ability to take a photo of you for your account picture, should the installer acquire a (probably somewhat inconsistent) interface for doing that too? How about an interface for setting up an IM account? etc
[17:27] <cjwatson> mpt: while I sympathise with the slippery slope argument to some extent, I think those are very clearly distinct; those are attributes of your account, rather than a specification of how your data is stored, and furthermore migrating to encrypted-home later is always going to have some inherent problems (for example, I expect that you would need to have at least as much free disk space available as you have data in ...
[17:27] <cjwatson> ... your home directory
[17:27] <cjwatson> )
[17:28] <mpt> cjwatson, the same applies even to Windows migration (why yes I do want to migrate Windows files from my other computer, but that's in my parents' house and I'm not), which is partly why I suggested earlier to evand that Windows migration be split out of the installer too
[17:28] <mpt> (and I'm not ... visiting them again until next week, for example)
[17:29] <kirkland> i see a difference between stuff that needs to be setup (bootstrapped) from the beginning of the install, and stuff that's easier to do later
[17:29] <cjwatson> that's an excellent argument for making m-a available from outside the installer, but not an argument for removing it from the installer
[17:29] <cjwatson> those two things need to be considered separately and not conflated
[17:29] <kirkland> setting up an IM account and uploading your picture is something that doesn't really benefit from happening on installation
[17:30] <cjwatson> m-a is useful in the installer because it is likely to deal with properties you want to be set up before you start using your computer in earnest
[17:30] <mpt> cjwatson, the general argument for not having, in the installer, anything that should be available elsewhere and doesn't *need* to be in the installer, is that it avoids having two inconsistent interfaces for the same function
[17:30] <cjwatson> for example, you want to migrate firefox properties over before you start to use firefox if possible, otherwise you have to figure out how to merge them
[17:30] <cjwatson> and I don't think that's a good argument, honestly
[17:30] <cjwatson> interfaces should be available in the installer if they're significantly more painful to do later
[17:31] <mpt> and it avoids misleading people into thinking that the installer was the only way of accessing those functions and oh, it's too late now
[17:31] <cjwatson> that's only a problem if the desktop is crap, frankly
[17:31] <cjwatson> (and we could always note that sort of thing in the installer somehow)
[17:32] <cjwatson> here is a logical consequence of your argument that I think is undesirable
[17:32] <cjwatson> there is an interface for adding users outside the installer (that some people fail to discover, for one reason or another)
[17:32] <cjwatson> it is not the same as the interface for adding the first user in the installer, since it offers more features such as adding multiple users
[17:33] <cjwatson> therefore the installer should not add any users at all, and should instead drop you into a guest account kind of thing post-install with users-admin popped up for you
[17:33] <cjwatson> the reason I think this is undesirable is that it conflicts with the principle that the installer should give you a usable system with no further fuss
[17:35] <cjwatson> NCommander: I set the build to retry earlier, haven't checked back on it
[17:35] <cjwatson> NCommander: you can monitor it yourself on LP
[17:35] <evand> well, m-a does merge settings, but probably a moot point
[17:36] <mpt> cjwatson, I broadly agree with that principle but I think it focuses a little too much on "the installer" as an executable
[17:36] <cjwatson> right, but what if you set it up from scratch again and typed in something slightly different
[17:36] <cjwatson> I think it does make sense to set as much up to start with as is reasonable
[17:36] <cjwatson> (and yes, these are all slightly-conflicting principles that we have to balance, which is why reasonable people can end up disagreeing!)
[17:36] <mpt> yeah
[17:37] <cjwatson> mpt: I'm focusing on it as a user-visible phase, rather than as an executable; I think users are quite likely to perceive rebooting as the end of installation, which I think is pretty reasonable ...
[17:37] <mpt> cjwatson, if you're going to restart the computer anyway to check the installation has worked, I think it's quite reasonable for a user setup to appear then
[17:37] <cjwatson> and I think that's superior to the alternative of rebooting in the middle of the installation process, which (from Windows experience) induced a feeling of despair
[17:38] <cjwatson> "oh god, how much longer is this going to take"
[17:38] <cjwatson> mpt: ah, see "reasonable people disagreeing" :-) I think it's better to do user setup first
[17:38] <mpt> because that same user setup is relevant to every user account, even if it's created months or years later.
[17:38] <mpt> Some of the users of the system you're installing may not even be born yet.
[17:38] <cjwatson> mpt: the clearest reason I can articulate for this is that it means more questions in the installation process are asked up-front, rather than with a long delay between questions
[17:39] <cjwatson> again, I'm not arguing for the removal of users-admin! I think it should be made *more* discoverable
[17:39] <cjwatson> *you're* arguing for a single interface, I'm not
[17:39] <mpt> yep
[17:39] <cjwatson> and I think the mindset one is in when installing the computer to start with is different from the mindset one is in when adding a new user
[17:40] <cjwatson> in the first case, the primary goal is "give me a usable computer" (subgoal: set up for me while we're there)
[17:40] <cjwatson> in the second case, the primary goal is "my wife wants to use the computer"
[17:40] <mpt> One case I have in mind is where you're installing the system for someone else, and you don't really want to get involved in setting up a dummy password for them if they're going to have to change it anyway
[17:40] <cjwatson> and I think those differing mindsets *can* indicate a different UI design
[17:40] <cjwatson> I think we should rebrand oem-config for that sort of purpose
[17:40] <cjwatson> but I don't think it's good to redesign the installation process for everyone based on that theory
[17:42] <cjwatson> OEMs installing systems that they then sell is a major case; users installing systems for themselves (and their families) is a major case. I honestly think that person X installing a system for person Y who isn't present (and so can't be called over to type in their password) is a niche case
[17:43] <cjwatson> I've been in the situation of being person X installing a system for person Y, but in all cases they were in the next room and I just called them over at the user setup stage
[17:43] <CIA-3> usb-creator: evand * r70 usb-creator/ (6 files in 3 dirs):
[17:43] <CIA-3> usb-creator: * Mark more strings for translation. Thanks István Nyitrai (LP: #310804).
[17:43] <CIA-3> usb-creator: * Change the Debian maintainer to the Ubuntu Installer Team.
[17:45] <mpt> cjwatson, setting up multiple users is actually the exception to my one-interface-per-setup-task principle I'd be most comfortable with, because "Who will will be using this computer?" would better encourage people to have separate accounts. But Ubiquity (except with m-a) doesn't allow for multiple users *anyway*.
[17:45] <cjwatson> whereas I see that as optimisation for the common case
[17:46] <mpt> (Windows XP asks for multiple account names during installation. I don't remember what Vista does.)
[17:46] <evand> (we abandoned the multiple user model in m-a a release or two ago.  You can only import into the account you are setting up at install, though it still supports multiple accounts under the hood.)
[17:47] <cjwatson> I could come down on either side of the how-many-users-during-installation question; I came down on the one-user side initially since it involved fewer interaction steps and was easier to implement, really
[17:48] <mpt> You mentioned rebranding oem-config
[17:48] <cjwatson> I agree that it seems likely to produce a different psychology, although I must say that I have never done any user observation to see how they react to it
[17:48] <mpt> If we did that, when and how would it be invoked?
[17:49] <cjwatson> (the only case I've observed was my parents, and they viewed it as somewhat ridiculous for the two of them to have different accounts given that they'd been married for 30+ years)
[17:50] <cjwatson> well, despite the name and modulo some details, oem-config is essentially a way to install a system but defer answers to user-specific questions until a bit later
[17:50] <cjwatson> so it's an "I'm installing a system for somebody else" mode
[17:50] <cjwatson> it is (I think intrinsically) more awkward
[17:50] <mpt> So do the user-specific questions appear on first login?
[17:50] <cjwatson> for example, you might not even have the same preferred language as the other person
[17:51] <cjwatson> right, the current scheme is that you install a system with a dummy 'oem' account which the OEM can use to customise things (this is the part I think is unnecessary if you're just ordinary person X installing for person Y), then after the OEM says "I'm done now", user-specific questions are asked at the next boot
[17:52] <mpt> ok
[17:52] <cjwatson> language, location, keyboard layout, user stuff
[17:52] <mpt> I'm trying to imagine how that would coexist on a CD where standard Ubiquity was also available
[17:52] <cjwatson> it does, right now
[17:53] <cjwatson> there's an option on the CD boot menu to invoke it
[17:53] <cjwatson> it's currently somewhat hidden since we don't want to confuse ordinary people into using it, since it has this customisation stage
[17:53] <mpt> ok, make that "coexist prominently" :-)
[17:53] <cjwatson> so it's on F4 "OEM install (for manufacturers)" or some such
[17:54] <cjwatson> how about user page has a thing at the top saying "I am installing this system for somebody else; ask me later"
[17:54] <cjwatson> the installer doesn't really need to know before that
[17:55] <cjwatson> technical effect of that would be that oem-config is installed and configured to run on the next boot
[17:56] <cjwatson> and I suppose no account would be created, or maybe some kind of dummy account
[17:56] <cjwatson> but at any rate it wouldn't ask for a password
[18:01] <mpt> that seems reasonable
[18:04] <cjwatson> NCommander: damn, didn't work, I've sent a patch to kernel-team to actually try to build udebs :-/
[18:04] <NCommander> cjwatson, I can build the ARM kernel here
[18:04] <cjwatson> NCommander: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2009-January/004042.html
[18:04] <cjwatson> if you can test that and follow up, go for it
[18:04] <NCommander> Sure, no problem, I can even get it merged if need-be
[18:05] <cjwatson> that isn't usually a problem, but sure
[18:05] <cjwatson> I expect all it needs is for somebody to have test-built it
[19:02] <NCommander> cjwatson, roughly speaking, how much work do we have in porting d-i to a new subarchitecture?
[19:03] <cjwatson> NCommander: d-i itself? shouldn't take more than an hour or so plus hanging around for build tests. also add whatever time is needed to write bootloader installation/configuration code
[19:03] <cjwatson> but actually getting the d-i build system to build for a new subarchitecture is pretty trivial
[19:04] <NCommander> cjwatson, I was considering packaging the freescale kernel so we could use it as a basis to port d-i so when the final kernel arrives, its a config file update and rebuild.
[19:05] <cjwatson> sure
[19:05] <NCommander> the only problem is we need a nice place to hang all the udebs and such since I don't think we want the freescale kernel in the archive
[19:06] <cjwatson> oh, just bung 'em in build/localudebs/ for local build-testing
[19:06] <NCommander> Aw, thats no fun ...
[19:06] <cjwatson> or put them in a temporary archive and fiddle build/sources.list.udeb.local
[19:06] <NCommander> *gunned down*
[19:07] <NCommander> I need to work out how to create a flash map with redboot first anyway; am I correct in assuming d-i knows how to handle writing an initrd to flash (I know it works right on the NSLU2)
[19:08] <cjwatson> I'm not quite sure how it works for NSLU2 but the usual approach is that you have a "bootloader installer" component that does the work
[19:09] <cjwatson> I believe that the flash-kernel package does it
[19:09] <cjwatson> it may need a trivial tweak
[19:09] <NCommander> I know d-i on NSLU doesn't touch the flash
[19:09] <cjwatson> or maybe not so trivial
[19:10] <cjwatson> d-i on NSLU2 has a bunch of code that fiddles with mtd
[19:10] <cjwatson> and says "Flashing kernel:"
[19:10] <NCommander> Well, we can get mtd going on the Babbage
[19:10] <cjwatson> so not sure I agree :)
[19:10] <NCommander> That isn't very difficult (I just need to work out the specifics of flash mapping)
[19:10] <cjwatson> have a look at flash-kernel, anyway
[19:10] <cjwatson> that's the main thing to port
[19:11] <NCommander> Ah, sounds like fun
[19:11] <NCommander> cjwatson, if you could get me a list of udebs ARM d-i wants, I can make sure they're all built
[19:12] <cjwatson> I'm pretty sure they already are
[19:12] <cjwatson> we'll find out once the kernel's in place
[19:12] <cjwatson> at this point it's less tedious to just test-build
[19:12] <NCommander> works for me


[04:18] <SupaYoshi> Hi anyone that knows a good docker-compose service file for systemctl ?
[04:18] <SupaYoshi> I’m wanting to start docker after reboot. But i want to delay its restart till after a specific service has been started
[07:23] <lordievader> Good morning
[11:10] <SupaYoshi> good morning
[11:14] <lordievader> 👋
[11:17] <SupaYoshi> ?
[15:14] <sdeziel> hello, I'm tasked with "vacuuming" a dynamic web site and get a static copy of it for reasons. wget --mirror does a good first pass but doesn't bring the stuff that JS would cause a regular browser to fetch. Anyone got an idea to solved that?
[15:16] <Ussat> Unless you have access to the code and can just copy it, nope
[15:17] <sdeziel> Ussat: I have access to the dynamic copy
[15:17] <Ussat> just copy the code, BUT, it wont just work if thats your goal
[15:18] <sdeziel> I don't see how that help me :/
[15:20] <sdeziel> for example, there is one file with src="/core/assets/vendor/modernizr/modernizr.min.js?v=3.3.1" I could grab a copy from the FS but then I'd miss the "v=3.3.1" query string
[15:38] <Ussat> Right, there is no way of getting that because its dynamic
[15:44] <sdeziel> Ussat: OK, I guess I'm then left with two choices: scripted headless browser to save the whole deal or an aggressive caching proxy in front of it
[15:44] <Ussat> SO, whats the ultimage outcome you want ?
[15:44] <Ussat> ultimate
[15:44] <sdeziel> basically survived a planed DDoS
[15:45] <sdeziel> s/survived/survive/
[15:45] <sdeziel> DDoS is a bit of an abuse, this will be a flood of legitimate clients
[15:45] <Ussat> So, thats what backups are for
[15:46] <Ussat> you are approaching this wrong
[15:46] <Ussat> if legit clients take you down, this has nothing to do with that
[15:46] <sdeziel> maybe I described it wrong cause I'm not looking for backup. I want a site that performs well under heavy load
[15:46] <Ussat> beef up your infra
[15:46] <Ussat> so you need a beefer infra then
[15:46] <sdeziel> hence the idea to turn a dynamic monster into a static small site
[15:47] <Ussat> Not gonna happen
[15:47] <Ussat> only way to accomplish what you want is a beefier server
[15:48] <teward> sdeziel: one of the teams at my employer had a similar case to what you wanted.  Without a full copy of the site it was a page-by-page identification and scrape.
[15:48] <teward> to get a static copy.
[15:48] <teward> and that was a heavily MANUAL process because of the JS, etc.
[15:48] <teward> if you have a copy of the code, DB, etc. that's what you'll need.
[15:48] <sdeziel> teward: I'm betting on nginx fronting the dynamic site and doing aggressive caching of everything (HTML included)
[15:49] <teward> as for surviving a planned stress load, you need the beefier server
[15:49] <teward> sdeziel: trust me that won't work very well
[15:49] <teward> dynamic sites, NGINX doesn't really cache dynamic sites well because usually there's underlying headers, tags, etc. that indicate to NOT keep a cached copy
[15:49] <sdeziel> we will have Cloudflare in front of that cache of ours
[15:50] <teward> your process is approaching this wrong
[15:50] <teward> > hence the idea to turn a dynamic monster into a static small site
[15:50] <teward> impossible and not going to happen
[15:50] <teward> you either need:
[15:50] <sdeziel> hmm
[15:50] <teward> (1) larger infra to survive the load
[15:50] <teward> (2) backup copy of the site in its entirety running independent from the stress load
[15:51] <sdeziel> I was maybe too optimistic but I though I could tell nginx to ignore caching hints and just do as told
[15:51] <teward> sdeziel: that may work for static contents but NOT for JS-generated stuff
[15:51] <teward> since JS and such is all client side executed and such
[15:51] <teward> your entire premise and approach is backwards of what it needs to bei
[15:51] <teward> s/bei/be/
[15:51] <teward> sure theres ways to get "cached copies" of data
[15:51] <teward> but that won't be a replacement
[15:52] <teward> because for a cached copy to *work* basically **every single potential URL, request, content piece, query string, argument, parameters, etc. needs to go through the proxy for it to work as a 'static copy'**
[15:52] <Ussat> I would suggest, for what you want, a hot-hot HA setup
[15:52] <sdeziel> OK so two against my (naive) proposal... not feeling confident anymore
[15:52] <teward> and that's not really a thing you can (a) enumerate sanely, and (b) execute in a way that survives the DDoS
[15:52] <teward> i agree with Ussat
[15:53] <teward> hot-hot HA setup with a loadbalancer/failover mechanism to fail over to the alternate HA on overload
[15:53] <Ussat> ^^
[15:53] <teward> but keep in mind if your DDoS is hostname driven and not a single IP target, it will potentially explode there as well
[15:53] <Ussat> I would suggest, two servers behind something like a F5 load balancer, as an example
[15:53] <teward> ^ something like that
[15:54] <Ussat> Its, not trivial
[15:54] <teward> DB HA-HA isn't trivial either
[15:54] <Ussat> Because, youre talking shared FS in order to keep things in sync, and agreed teward
[15:54] <teward> s/HA-HA/HA/
[15:54] <teward> right
[15:55] <sdeziel> OK, should NOT have said DDoS, it's just going to be a flood of legitimate clients
[15:55] <teward> sdeziel: ... which would bypass CF and then hit hard.
[15:55] <teward> sdeziel: same equal problem
[15:55] <Ussat> So, something like, 2 servers behind a F5 to balance, that both talk to the same DB, but a beefy DB server
[15:55] <teward> that'd do what you're after, yes.
[15:55] <Ussat> maby 2 or 3 webservers to distribute the load
[15:55] <sdeziel> teward: CF will take the bigger part of the hit assuming I'm crafting the right Cache-Control headers
[15:55] <teward> might not hurt to have a RO copy of the DB around either as a failover so when you're under load you can serve a readonly
[15:56] <teward> (like StackOverflow/SE does)
[15:56] <Ussat> ^^
[15:56] <teward> sdeziel: you still have to accomodate for the percentage of traffic that will slip past
[15:56] <teward> sdeziel: in which case you're still looking at the same problem, full on DDoS or not
[15:56] <Ussat> You alos need to realiose, nothing will be 100% bullet proof
[15:56] <teward> if your system can't handle the *load* of the legitimate clients that CF does *not* block, then you need larger resources
[15:56] <teward> and also what Ussat says
[15:56] <teward> no solution we could provide will be 100% bulletproof
[15:57] <teward> there'll be ways to still overload things
[15:57] <Ussat> yup
[15:57] <teward> and that doesn't account for simply flooding the pipe with requests and exhausting the connection/request queues causing 503s or similar unavailability cases
[15:57] <sdeziel> I've been told to expect "24k concurrent users" whatever concurrent means
[15:57] <teward> (or triggering a ton fo 416s)
[15:57] <teward> concurrent means simultaneously connected and accessing
[15:57] <teward> it's basically a loadtest.
[15:57] <teward> on that basis
[15:58] <sdeziel> I know what concurrent means but they are management people
[15:58] <teward> you have to assume you will have 24000 simultaneous requests for information
[15:58] <teward> sdeziel: without more information on the 'attack' you're going to be handling
[15:58] <teward> we're going to speculate
[15:58] <teward> so your options are:
[15:58] <Ussat> sdeziel, I would suggest, if youre putting something together for 24k concurrant users, IRC is NOT the venue for this, I suggest you have a professional or two architect this out
[15:58] <sdeziel> let me describe it better
[15:58] <teward> i also agree with Ussat
[15:58] <teward> you will need a professional network architect involved
[15:58] <Ussat> because thqats not trivial
[15:59] <teward> ^^
[15:59] <sdeziel> the site in question will be announces on public TV so we expect many curious to just look it up
[15:59] <Ussat> ya, get a pro involved, there is no way over IRC this can be worked out
[15:59] <Ussat> also, this will NOT be cheap
[16:00] <teward> ^^
[16:00] <teward> and i'm speaking as a professional network security guy here
[16:00] <teward> not just my Ubuntu hat today ;)
[16:00] <sdeziel> alright, I appreciate the discussion
[16:01] <teward> sdeziel: the SIMPLEST solution is temporarily put the site in RO mode and serve read-only copies of the site
[16:01] <sdeziel> I'll have to evaluate my options quickly
[16:01] <teward> sdeziel: the SIMPLEST solution is temporarily put the site in RO mode and serve read-only copies of the site, let the DB handle things
[16:01] <Ussat> I used to manage an ecomm site that was very high traffic and ya, get some professionals to look this over
[16:01] <teward> but you still won't get the solutoin you're after
[16:01] <Ussat> There is no way to do this quickly
[16:01] <teward> you'll need professionals to design/spec this out
[16:01] <Ussat> not if you want it right
[16:01] <sdeziel> I need a PoC at the EOD
[16:01] <teward> ^^ that
[16:01] <sdeziel> and a prod ready on Dec 7th
[16:02] <teward> sdeziel: your bosses need to [CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED]
[16:02] <teward> sdeziel: Impossible
[16:02] <teward> solution in 6 days is not feasible
[16:02] <Ussat> No chance by the 7th
[16:02] <teward> you need at LEAST 6 days to work with pros to spec out what you need, what your goals are, research options, and get budget approvals to *purchase* any softwrae you need
[16:02] <Ussat> not a chance
[16:02] <teward> 100% guarantee you will NOT get a solution by the 7th
[16:02] <teward> this isn't something you can put together last minute
[16:02] <Ussat> You will need at least 6 days to start to design this
[16:03] <teward> ^ that
[16:03] <Ussat> This is a 6 month project
[16:03] <teward> yup
[16:03]  * sdeziel is on the phone with said boss
[16:03] <teward> sdeziel: orly?  Put me on the line, I'll give your boss a few dozen words.  *shot*
[16:03] <Ussat> Plus you need testing, LOTS of load testing
[16:03] <teward> (no seriously it's bosses like this that send me off on "I Want To Smack Someone" mode)
[16:04] <Ussat> Having done something similar....ya this is at least 6 months
[16:05] <Ussat> also, this is not going to be cheap
[16:07] <sdeziel> I didn't explain the dynamic nature of the site, it's basically just an information page. There is no session or custom content served by users
[16:07] <sdeziel> same content for everyone
[16:08] <Ussat> That doesnt change things really
[16:10] <sdeziel> Ussat: in my view, that means it is really cache friendly
[16:11] <sdeziel> and my (naive) idea is to move all the clients to hit CF instead of my backend
[16:11] <Ussat> sure its cache friendly, but you still will need something beefy to 1) server that and 2) handle all the connections, and at a minimum a HA solution to handle system failures
[16:12] <Ussat> I have minimum experiance with CF, so I can not speak to that
[17:14] <teward> sdeziel: if the page is NOT a static content page, then it's not cache friendly
[17:15] <sdeziel>  teward: it's a Drupal page so it has the usual clutter but I still aim to cache it as aggressively as possible
[17:15] <sdeziel> testing will confirm if I'm deluded
[17:16] <teward> we're going to go in a cyclical argument again
[17:16] <sdeziel> but I don't have any other options I can think of with the time I am allocated
[17:16] <teward> sdeziel: you basically HAVE no options with the time you've been allocated
[17:16] <teward> just saying
[17:16] <sdeziel> Dec 7th is soon enough
[17:16] <teward> the previous stuff we stated remains the same.
[17:16] <teward> any solution you do now is a 'bandaid' and '42000 concurrent connections' aren't going to happen at the same exact moment
[17:16] <sdeziel> understood, I just need to compose with the reality I'm facing...
[17:17] <teward> sdeziel: i can acquaint you with the reality instantly.  give me your target domain/etc. and we can loadtest it *now* :P
[17:17] <sdeziel> oh the page content is still being worked on...
[17:17] <sdeziel> reality is brutal like that sometimes
[17:54] <teward> sdeziel: content or not, you can just throw a plain page up :p
[17:54] <teward> and then loadtest it yourself via k6.io or one of the things I gave you
[17:54] <teward> show you a small 50-concurrent-user load test :p
[17:55] <teward> that not withstanding, you can indicate to your boss if you wish that multiple individuals who have had to deal with this request (including an IT Security professional) have all advised that you're going to be limited in your capabilities with sucha  short deadline - protecting against DdoS / load is something done over many months NOT six days
[17:55] <teward> but i rest my case on that
[18:17] <tomreyn> sdeziel: i guess you could try to produce static content, which makes it scalable. and then host it in the cloud to scale.
[18:18] <sdeziel> tomreyn: I went that way first only then to realize that it's not super trivial to turn a site into a static version. wget --mirror is only good for stuff pulled from HTML, nothing fetched async by JS...
[18:20] <sdeziel> tomreyn: for now, I'm taking the reverse proxy+aggressive caching of everything (HTML included) in order to leverage CF "distributed cache"
[18:20] <sdeziel> my goal is to only serve the first page load to warm Cloudflare's cache
[18:20] <tomreyn> sdeziel: the stuff that's fetched async by JS would need to continue to be fetched async by JS. that's only client side dynamics, not server side.
[18:20] <sarnold> sdeziel: to the extent I've read about this, it really helps to have designed the site to have clearly separates dynamic vs static portions, so fully static stuff can be served from cache as-is with very little overhead, and the dynamic things are fairly restricted to a small portion of the site, and you can try to cache fragments of rendered pages for assembly by the servers before delivery to
[18:20] <sarnold> clients
[18:21] <sarnold> sdeziel: could you make more aggressive use of fragment caching in your application for those dynamic portions? could you strip some of the dynamic bits from pages that are 99.9% static and get them all the way to 100% static?
[18:21] <sdeziel> sarnold: yes unfortunately, the content people wanted a Drupal with zillion plugins
[18:22] <sdeziel> sarnold: I intend to have a reverse proxy adding Cache-Control to everything that pass by it and ignore what the backend thinks should be cached or not
[18:22] <sdeziel> this is essentially building a static copy that's populated 'live', on the first load
[18:23] <sdeziel> and then only refresh it every few minutes
[18:23] <sdeziel> in my test, this really leverages CF as I see no requests spilling to my reverse proxy ... I'm a bit more encouraged than earlier ;)
[18:25] <sarnold> sdeziel: does it matter if you wind up serving pages meant for me to your boss?
[18:25] <tomreyn> about this     src="/core/assets/vendor/modernizr/modernizr.min.js?v=3.3.1"     this is really just a parameter passed to the javascript code that's evaluated by javascript running on the client. it doesn't involve additional work on the server if you allow all asset/... urls to be cached.
[18:25] <tomreyn> but if there's a single .php script in this url path then you break things
[18:26] <sdeziel> sarnold: that's the point I was probably not clear, the page is identical for every visitor, no cookie nor custom user stuff, just always the same
[18:26] <sdeziel> tomreyn: the ?v=3.3.1 is meant for cache busting purposes so I outta keep it
[18:27] <sdeziel> or that's how I understand it
[18:27] <sarnold> orrrrrrr strip it off and not bust the cache
[18:27] <sarnold> use last week's version of hypercard.js
[18:28] <sarnold> or whatever they published six seconds ago
[18:28] <sdeziel> sarnold: the client wants to be able to push live modifications inside 15 minutes...
[18:28] <sdeziel> so that's the minimum Cache-Control max-age I'll set
[18:29] <sdeziel> the query string doesn't bother CF, it can cope with it, it's cache will simply grow bigger
[18:29] <tomreyn> maybe look into https://tome.fyi/ for a drupal static site generator
[18:29] <sdeziel> or CF can be told to ignore the query string altogether as you proposed
[18:30] <sdeziel> tomreyn: interesting, thx for that!
[18:34] <tomreyn> you should really train dev's to develop websites which produce static code whereever possible, though, and to serve dynamic content from a different (sub)domain.
[18:35] <sdeziel> I just discovered they backed a search engine in the site ... to search among the possible 3 results....
[18:38] <tomreyn> yet another option for .js with query parameters is to use remotely (CDN) hosted scripts, making scalability someone elses' problem. you can use https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subresource_Integrity#Browser_compatibility to prevent script injection there.
[18:39] <tomreyn> it's a way to solve a problem by adding twenty patches on top instead of solving it at the source, though
[18:41] <sdeziel> tomreyn: my goal is to leverage Cloudflare for that and they are so far doing an amazing job at shielding me
[18:42] <sdeziel> it's just a matter of serving the first page load when a client happen to go through a cold CF endpoint
[18:42] <Ussat> This still ?
[18:43] <sdeziel> Ussat: yes, sorry for the noise today
[18:43] <Ussat> Not noise, not at all, but I dont think you are understanding, fundamentally, you have alm,ost zero chance of doing what you want in that time frame
[18:44] <Ussat> I have managed projects of that scope.....and its about a 6 month project, if all goes well
[18:44] <sdeziel> Ussat: I may be set to fail but I've been told I have to try
[18:50] <Ussat> Well, best of luck, and yes, I honestly mean that
[18:51] <sdeziel> I appreciate it and I'll be sure to report back post Dec 7th ;)
[18:52] <sdeziel> will be fun either way it goes
[18:55] <sarnold> yes, good luck sdeziel :) one way or another december 8 will arrive :)
[19:12] <sdeziel> yeah and we'll have served a huge bunch of web pages, some 200 and some 50X. The ratio will be interesting ;)
[19:14] <sarnold> hehehehe
[21:38] <teward> sdeziel: i would still STRONGLY suggest you test this yourself with load testers like I sent you
[21:38] <teward> because you will *need* to test this LONG before it's prod-ready
[21:38] <teward> with only 6 days that means "start testing today" (once a day)
[21:39] <teward> ... or have someone else strike you hard with it (I have a k6 instance I can toss at you if needed :P)
[21:39] <teward> point still stands, JS is client side stuff so
[21:40] <teward> if it does any type of query to the server for data your attempt to cache will go into the hell that we warned you about
[21:41] <sdeziel> teward: I just learned that the official domain will be communicated to us at the latest 3 hours before the official launch
[21:41] <teward> well... then you're SOL :P
[21:42] <sdeziel> :)
[21:44] <Ussat> 3 hours
[21:47] <sarnold> three hours
[21:47] <sarnold> it'll be fun to hear their reactions when the domain name they intended to buy has been bought because the whois site they used front-run the domain purchase :)
[21:49] <teward> lol
[21:50] <teward> sdeziel: if you know the IP you can still throw salt at it.  OR run k6 locally, i've got a script you can use you just have to adjust the path(s) internally


[09:48] <klattimer> davidbarth: I'm confused about two memory leak bugs #378193 and #405364
[09:49] <klattimer> I see that the former has a fix committed and merge requested which is pending, however in the second bug I see a merge request approved and am wondering if the approved contains both fixes
[09:49] <klattimer> MacSlow: you'll help here too
[09:50] <davidbarth> klattimer: hi
[09:50] <klattimer> :)
[09:50] <MacSlow> klattimer, looking...
[09:50] <klattimer> morning
[09:50] <davidbarth> uh, i remember MacSlow was hunting down mem leaks
[09:51] <davidbarth> but then probably one fix was not passing the QA control
[09:51] <davidbarth> a bit too close to a release and we left it here; MacSlow, remember the details?
[09:52] <MacSlow> klattimer, davidbarth: the real fix to many (if not all) mem-leak issues of notify-osd is to do the abstract notification-object/class (which is in trunk actually already), but I never had the time to hook it all up
[09:53] <MacSlow> klattimer, davidbarth: the idea behind it all is to have only two instances of bubbles at any one time (sync and async) and to all the queue-handling etc. on just the abstract notification-class objects
[09:54] <klattimer> well, what should be done about these two bugs then?
[09:54] <MacSlow> I admit that this is more a "feature" than a bug-fix.
[09:56] <MacSlow> klattimer, I remember that there was a valgrind-hit for GdkPixbuf creation, which I could not track down
[09:56] <MacSlow> klattimer, but I would have to valgrind it again to refresh my brain on the issue.
[09:57] <klattimer> :/
[09:57] <MacSlow> people seem to see it most with covers displayed in notifications
[09:57] <klattimer> hmm
[09:57] <klattimer> well, it seems there's a bit of an issue with this then
[09:58] <klattimer> two high priority bugs exist, which are from an older generation, and a proper fix is on the way
[09:58] <klattimer> which will in some part include a re-write thus making the current debugging information invalid
[09:59] <klattimer> MacSlow: does that sound accurate to you?
[10:00] <MacSlow> klattimer, the GdkPixbuf related leak is still a leak needed to fix... but switching to the abstract notification-object would considerably lessen the leakage.
[10:00] <klattimer> MacSlow: and where is the abstract notification-object on your task list?
[10:02] <davidbarth> hmm, this is where i would trace the line: no structural changes to n-osd this cycle
[10:02] <davidbarth> if there are still a leak or two and they require a structural change, let's document that and switch to something else
[10:03] <MacSlow> klattimer, that class is implemented (wiht unit-tests even)...
[10:03] <davidbarth> people are not really impacted by those leaks, so it's better to do something that makes their work easier than invest in something that has no user benefit
[10:03] <davidbarth> klattimer, MacSlow: makes sense?
[10:03] <klattimer> i was under the impression that the leaks were serious
[10:03] <MacSlow> klattimer, but I would valgrind n-osd, with a few track-switches from rhythmbox...
[10:03] <klattimer> gb's in some cases
[10:03] <davidbarth> so is there a leak that can be fixed given the actual code base?
[10:04] <MacSlow> I believe so
[10:04] <klattimer> yeah
[10:04] <klattimer> trouble is, which branch
[10:04] <klattimer> which branches contain which already patched bits
[10:04] <davidbarth> klattimer: which bug should i mark whislist/later then? i'll be happy to do so, and just leave open the one where you think progresses can still be made with that code base
[10:05] <klattimer> is there a need to merge two branches or not?
[10:05] <MacSlow> klattimer, nope
[10:05] <MacSlow> klattimer, use trunk
[10:05] <klattimer> davidbarth: I think that I can probably get all the leaks reported here
[10:06] <klattimer> MacSlow: then has the branch from https://launchpad.net/bugs/378193 been merged yet?
[10:06] <davidbarth> klattimer: ok, ping me if you want me to do so bug mgt
[10:06] <klattimer> k
[10:06] <klattimer> :)
[10:07] <MacSlow> klattimer, yes
[10:07] <klattimer> oh
[10:07] <klattimer> k
[10:07] <klattimer> trunk it is then
[10:19] <klattimer> davidbarth: I think both #378193 and #405364 can be closed and a new bug opened for "test for memory leaks" as a reminder to do a more recent valgrind
[10:20] <klattimer> it seems as MacSlow is developing on various other parts right now, tracing memory leaks should wait at least until he's satisfied it's the right time
[10:20] <klattimer> MacSlow: does that sound good?
[10:21] <MacSlow> yup
[10:38] <klattimer> MacSlow: have you closed a bunch of high bugs on notify-osd?
[10:39] <MacSlow> klattimer, not in recent times
[10:40] <MacSlow> klattimer, only working on unity
[10:43] <klattimer> ah no worries i got lost in launchpad
[10:51] <davidbarth> klattimer: ok
[13:30] <jcastro> hi klattimer
[13:30] <klattimer> hey sup
[13:30] <klattimer> jcastro: ?
[13:31] <jcastro> keeping busy?
[13:31] <klattimer> quite
[13:31] <jcastro> seb has some bugs for you. :D
[13:31] <klattimer> churning through the notify-osd bugs and sorting them out
[13:31] <klattimer> a lot of the work has already been done
[13:31] <jcastro> klattimer: since we're guadecing we'd figure we'd err on the side of piling too many on your plate
[13:31] <jcastro> oh awesome
[13:31] <klattimer> well assign away ;)
[13:31] <jcastro> I've been travelling all day so please do a detailed report
[13:31] <klattimer> k
[13:32] <jcastro> also, can you CC<EMAIL_ADDRESS>on your reports from now on?
[13:32] <klattimer> sure
[13:32] <jcastro> jawesome
[13:32] <jcastro> how you getting on then?
[13:32] <klattimer> i got round to adding my pgp key and signing the code of conduct on launchpad too
[13:33] <jcastro> rock
[13:33] <klattimer> it's going well mostly been trawling through code seeing if patches have been committed yet
[13:33] <klattimer> seeing what the fastest wins are so I can concentrate on the ones which need some hard work later
[13:34] <klattimer> oh, I did want to ask you, as I can't seem to join the indicator dev team I was wondering what could be done there as ted is away
[13:40] <jcastro> klattimer: you'll need to catch dbarth or mirco or njpatel
[13:40] <jcastro> imo they should just add you
[13:41] <klattimer> k
[13:41] <njpatel> indicator-applet-developers?
[13:42] <njpatel> klattimer, ^
[13:54] <klattimer> njpatel: yeah
[14:01] <Cimi> hi davidbarth
[14:33] <davidbarth> Cimi: hi, got my message about the thursday upload window?
[14:34] <Cimi> yes
[14:34] <Cimi> and replied immediatly
[15:11] <davidbarth> klattimer: ping, i added you to https://launchpad.net/~indicator-applet-developers
[15:12] <davidbarth> Cimi: ok, so for the menu layout part, can you work with bratsche on getting the other changes ready
[15:12] <davidbarth> the patch on dbusmenu should be relatively easy, maybe it can be a style property change
[15:13] <davidbarth> the one with the variable icon size is a bit more tricky, it requires patching libindicator; which bratsche did a while back
[15:13] <davidbarth> bratsche: did you find the branch on your system btw?
[15:17] <klattimer> davidbarth: cool
[15:18] <bratsche> davidbarth: I'll take a look for it.
[15:20] <bratsche> btw, does anyone here have nvidia with two monitors?
[15:20] <bratsche> Could use some help.
[15:31] <Cimi> davidbarth: ok
[15:32] <Cimi> I was looking at few things for the theme
[16:30] <seb128> klattimer, hey
[16:31] <seb128> klattimer, not sure how is your todolist right now
[16:31] <seb128> klattimer, there is still an issue on bug #558841
[16:32] <seb128> klattimer, if you click on desactivate and then active in the applet menu the "visible" item is not listed
[19:18] <chrisccoulson> bratsche, interesting response from mozilla about the linux UI for FF4.0 - http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.firefox/browse_thread/thread/5a77e3e5e58deb52#
[19:18] <chrisccoulson> well, perhaps not interesting
[19:18] <chrisccoulson> but i wonder what they're having difficulty with?
[19:24] <bratsche> Weird, I clicked over from there to this bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=572482
[19:24] <bratsche> Scrolled down some and saw a comment that looked like it was by me.
[19:24] <bratsche> And I was like, "Uhh.. I don't remember writing that comment."
[19:24] <bratsche> But it's not me. :)


[03:07]  * bcurtiswx ate too much pizza
[03:08] <fagan> bcurtiswx: I want pizza now :(
[03:08] <fagan> no where open though
[03:08] <fagan> so its just taunting me
[03:08] <bcurtiswx> haha, lots open here still
[03:08] <fagan> its 3 am here
[03:08] <bcurtiswx> gmt+1, ick
[03:08] <bcurtiswx> go to bed
[03:09] <fagan> I am in bed
[03:09] <fagan> cant sleep
[03:09] <fagan> :/
[03:09] <bcurtiswx> ahh, have someone hit you in the head with a frying pan?
[03:09] <fagan> eh id prefer to have some pizza
[03:09] <fagan> :)
[03:09] <fagan> and some booze
[03:10]  * bcurtiswx wonders how pizza in europe is
[03:10] <fagan> bcurtiswx: america ?
[03:10] <bcurtiswx> depends on where u get it.. i hate chain places
[03:10] <bcurtiswx> i like local places
[03:10] <bcurtiswx> more genuine
[03:10] <fagan> well europeans invented pizza
[03:10]  * bcurtiswx knows, hency why i wonder
[03:10] <fagan> so go to italy and get real pizza
[03:11] <bcurtiswx> i have a passport, just need an excuse to use it.. lol
[03:11] <fagan> well dont you need a visa?
[03:11] <bcurtiswx> same thing :P
[03:11] <fagan> interesting
[03:12] <fagan> well I need a visa waver to get to america
[03:12] <fagan> but thats easy to get
[03:12] <bcurtiswx> its a passport here, looks like a checkbook
[03:12] <fagan> well we have passports too :P
[03:12] <fagan> and they look really similar
[03:13]  * bcurtiswx thought they were the same
[03:13] <fagan> except the Irish one is a weird brown colour
[03:13] <fagan> We should have a green one
[03:13] <bcurtiswx> fagan what country are you in exactly?
[03:13] <fagan> Ireland
[03:14] <bcurtiswx> ah, very nice
[03:14]  * bcurtiswx wants to visit there sometime
[03:14] <bcurtiswx> maybe my honeymoon
[03:14] <fagan> well its nice but dont go to dublin :D
[03:15] <bcurtiswx> lol, ok
[03:15] <fagan> its a rip off and the people arent as nice as the rest of the country
[03:15] <bcurtiswx> i'll take your word on that
[03:15]  * fagan still has love for dublin but its not as good as everywere else
[09:49] <aleth> Hi, how do I change the gnome desktop theme from the command line? Is there something like "gnome-appearance-properties <theme-folder>"?
[14:10] <mpt> vish, yo
[14:11] <mpt> vish, you know everything there is to know about icon sets. Is there supposed to be an icon somewhere for "Developer Tools" > "OCaml"?
[14:12] <vish> mpt: hey, yeah.. it was included in the last update.. it uses their logo > http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/index.en.html
[14:12] <vish> mpt: is it not showing up in SC?
[14:13] <mpt> vish, how recent was that update? I just installed updates half an hour ago and it's now showing in USC
[14:13] <vish> :)
[14:13] <mpt> bug 635732
[14:13] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 635732 in software-center (Ubuntu) ""OCaml" subsection in "Developer Tools" is missing an icon (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635732
[14:13] <vish> mpt: yeah, i tried the same too , but somehow SC does not pick them up..
[14:16] <vish> mpt: i had given mvo the icon names , but just adding the icon names in /data/software-center.menu.in does not seem to do it.. this worked last cycle , not sure where is changed this cycle..
[14:16] <fagan> Oh did you see my bug report about the FPS subsection for the software center mpt I made it about a week back
[14:17] <vish> mpt: ah wait!
[14:17] <vish> mpt: found the bug! mvo has named that -caml :)
[14:17] <mpt> fagan, no, I haven't sorry
[14:17] <fagan> Ill go grab a link
[14:17] <vish> instead of -ocaml
[14:17] <mpt> vish, it's a one-line fix?
[14:17] <vish> yup
[14:17] <mpt> sweet
[14:17]  * vish just checked the commit,
[14:18] <fagan> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/626414
[14:18] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 626414 in software-center (Ubuntu) "FPS sub genre in games (affects: 1) (heat: 583)" [Undecided,New]
[14:19] <fagan> The short story is that I dont think FPS games should be in arcade because they are a lot cooler than all the games in arcade
[14:20] <fagan> But I suppose its a little late now
[14:31] <mpt> fagan, it's a bit more complicated than that, too: there's probably no technical way of distinguishing FPS Arcade games from non-FPS ones right now. See <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter#Genre>, and my last two comments in bug 475773.
[14:31] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 475773 in software-center (Ubuntu) ""Get Software" category lists are too long (affects: 2) (heat: 22)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/475773
[14:33] <mpt> vish, thanks for that. :-) Now, is there a Lisp icon too?
[14:34] <vish> mpt: thats the lisp icon.. ;p
[14:34] <vish> mpt: i couldnt think of anything better.. ;p  feel free to suggest anything better for natty :)
[14:35] <mpt> vish, it's not any of the icons mentioned on http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/logo_lisp.html
[14:35] <mpt> any of the logos, I mean
[14:35] <fagan> ah ok mpt
[14:36] <vish> mpt: doh! i kept asking here , that i had no clue for that icon .. i blame you for not noticing my random rant here ! ;p
[14:36] <vish> mpt: i did notice the lizard thingy , but that is for lisp common or something.. , while lisp seemed for everything else..
[14:40] <mpt> vish, http://xahlee.org/emacs/lisp_logo.html would be nice if the licensing could be sorted out
[14:41] <vish> mpt: cool! not sure if we'd get an update for that icon alone... can you convince someone to update humanity for that icon?  i can get that done in 48px though..
[14:42] <mpt> vish, dude, licensing
[14:42] <vish> boo licenses ;p
[14:43] <mpt> First we'd need to mail Xah Lee and say something like, "Here's what Ubuntu Software Center's 'Developer Tools' section looks lke without a proper logo for Lisp. Would you be ok with relicensing yours so that we can use it?"
[14:44] <mpt> I'm not supposing that would get done in time for 10.10. :-)
[14:44] <vish> hmm.. or.. we dont have to do something exactly the same, and avoid license?
[14:45] <mpt> Copyright for graphical things doesn't work that way
[14:45]  * vish not sure about any licenses.. :)
[14:46] <vish> heh! i was trying to find a link to something reasonable from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP
[14:46] <vish> but never found that page :(
[14:46] <mpt> IANAL, but our Lisp icon would need to be about as different from any existing logo as our Java icon is from the official Java logo
[14:48] <vish> yea..
[14:49] <vish> hehe , we could have a stuttering tongue ;p
[14:49] <mpt> Or some nice brackets: "((()))"
[14:53] <vish> mpt: brackets? why? not sure i understand how that fits..
[14:53] <mpt> vish, Lisp is (in)famous for its heavy use of brackets
[14:54] <vish> oh..
[14:54] <mpt> http://www.j-paine.org/dobbs/whats_with.html
[14:57] <vish> mpt: btw, what gtk theme are you using?  the green scrollbars seem unfamiliar
[14:57] <devildante> mpt is here in weekend? Impossible :p
[14:57] <devildante> btw, hi all :)
[14:58] <mpt> vish, Elementary, with colors changed in Appearance
[14:58] <mpt> Hi devildante :-)
[14:58] <vish> ah..
[14:58] <vish> devildante: mpt is a workaholic.. ;)
[14:58] <devildante> hi, mpt, vish :)
[14:58] <devildante> vish: :p he's still a great guy :)
[14:58] <vish> meh..
[14:58] <vish>  ;p
[15:10] <mpt> devildante, do you know who did the History code?
[15:10] <devildante> mpt, no :(
[15:11] <devildante> mpt, I'll search in bzr log
[15:11] <mpt> oh, it doesn't matter that much, it's just quite buggy
[15:13] <devildante> mpt, care to report bugs? (or give me the bug numbers)
[15:15] <mpt> oh, I hadn't noticed you were already working on bug 635198
[15:15] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 635198 in software-center (Ubuntu) "History shows dates out of order (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635198
[15:15] <mpt> there's bug 635193
[15:15] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 635193 in software-center (Ubuntu) "History doesn't show anything I installed (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635193
[15:15] <mpt> And it's not collating applications together
[15:16] <mpt> e.g. I installed Freeciv with a capital F, and that shows up as four separate entries: "freeciv-client-gtk installed" "ggzcore-bin installed" "freeciv-data installed" "freeciv-server installed"
[15:19] <mpt> I guess a lot of it is just stuff I didn't have time to specify, and I'm just whining :-)
[15:19] <devildante> mpt, since the long-term goal is to replace synaptic, I think this is the good behavior
[15:20] <devildante> mpt, unless you want the application name shown, but that would break UI freeze
[15:20] <mpt> yeah
[15:20] <mpt> I guess for Natty we should have a "Show technical items" toggle like we do elsewhere
[15:21] <devildante> mpt, yes, that would be cool!
[15:29] <vish> mpt: WIP > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/applications-lisp.png  ?
[15:30] <devildante> vish, what's that?
[15:30] <vish> :(
[15:31] <vish> devildante: http://www.j-paine.org/dobbs/whats_with.html
[15:31] <vish> devildante: an icon for lisp..
[15:31] <devildante> ah, okay, thx :)
[15:32] <mpt> devildante, clearly, it's a pram <http://www.spiderpic.com/stock-photos/dreamstime/4032502-pram-for-baby-girl> as seen through a rainbow
[15:32]  * mpt hides
[15:33] <devildante> ...
[15:33] <devildante> mpt, can you see last comment on bug 635138 ? What's your opinion?
[15:33] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 635138 in software-center (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Apt cache repair "In Progress" text is "Repairing broken deps" (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635138
[15:33] <mpt> vish, what do the colors represent?
[15:34] <vish> mpt: just different lines of code.. instead of a monotonous single color for the background..
[15:36] <mpt> ah
[15:36] <mpt> devildante, +1 to glatzor's suggestion. I've commented.
[15:37] <devildante> mpt, great
[15:37] <mpt> vish, programming editors often color nested brackets to clarify which "(" matches which ")". You could get color that way.
[15:38] <devildante> mpt, will changes in trunk affect Maverick, or do we have to backport to the 3.0 branch?
[15:39] <vish> mpt: yeah.. thats why i went for the background colors..
[15:39]  * vish tries colors for the brackets alone
[15:40] <mpt> devildante, I asked mvo about that a few days ago (Monday, I think), and he said he was planning to merge trunk into the 3.0 branch, and that trunk was therefore "frozen" to anything that wasn't suitable for 3.0. That might have changed since, but even if it has, I don't expect he'll be taking much time to review non-3.0 stuff before the Final Freeze.
[15:41] <devildante> mpt, thanks :)
[15:45] <mpt> devildante, also, you probably know this already, but keep in mind that the more bugs you fix in a single branch (e.g. your "fixing-random-bugs"), the more likely it is that there will be a problem with one of the fixes, so the less likely it is that the branch will be merged for 3.0 at all.
[15:45] <devildante> mpt, okay, thanks for the info :)
[16:01] <vish> mpt: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/applications-lisp1.png ?
[16:02] <mpt> vish, much better
[16:02] <vish> cool.. will finish it.. :)
[16:44] <_doug> yo ..
[16:44] <devildante>  /join #ubuntu-tour
[16:45] <devildante> whoops, sorry for disturb :p
[19:45] <mpt> hi glatzor
[19:46] <fagan> oh mpt I added all the competing services to that wiki
[19:46] <fagan> I think its almost complete now
[19:46] <fagan> ish
[20:07] <bcurtiswx> ah ha, i know what the messaging menu is missing the option of.
[20:07] <bcurtiswx> the option to ignore an IM (or "x" it out)
[20:08] <bcurtiswx> since its too late for MM, NN will hopefully get that
[20:14] <vish> bcurtiswx: file a bug! ;)
[20:15] <bcurtiswx> :(
[20:15] <bcurtiswx> j/k :P i was already on it, but like always I find a billion distractions along the way
[20:32] <mpt> thanks fagan
[20:32] <fagan> I prob should make better wire frames
[20:32] <fagan> but hey im not an artist :P
[20:39]  * mpt finds a one-line fix for bug 538991
[20:39] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 538991 in gephi/0.7 (and 1 other project) "Mutual edges not imported when undirected (affects: 1) (heat: 1)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538991
[20:39] <mpt> or I should say, 538911
[20:40] <mpt> bug 538911
[20:40] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 538911 in software-center (Ubuntu) ""Developer Tools" > "Debugging" has no items (affects: 3) (heat: 34)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538911