[12:20] <cjwatson> xivulon: you have mail about a crash while ejecting the CD in wubi
[12:22] <xivulon> cjwatson, thanks could not test the physical CD yet because of size issues
[12:23] <cjwatson> the code looks pretty hosed when compared to documentation I googled up on ejecting CDs
[12:23] <cjwatson> might be better to just comment it out for now
[12:23] <xivulon> sure
[12:23] <xivulon> I submitted quite a few changes rev 281
[12:23] <xivulon> and some more coming
[12:24] <xivulon> Unfortunately 7z and makeimage make nsis crash. I am downloading windows stack tracing software
[12:26] <cjwatson> rather you than me
[12:26] <xivulon> cjwatson, if you found any info on ejecting the CD please send it over
[12:28] <cjwatson> xivulon: http://www.thescripts.com/forum/thread124082.html though I don't know how to adapt it to nsis
[12:29] <cjwatson> http://vbnet.mvps.org/index.html?code/faq/eject.htm
[12:33] <xivulon> thanks will have a look
[12:34] <xivulon> cjwatson that's the guide I used
[12:35] <cjwatson_> 23:28 <cjwatson> xivulon: http://www.thescripts.com/forum/thread124082.html though I don't know how to adapt it to nsis
[12:35] <cjwatson_> 23:29 <cjwatson> http://vbnet.mvps.org/index.html?code/faq/eject.htm
[12:35] <cjwatson_> 23:29 <cjwatson> I googled for "winmm mcisendstring eject CD" and found several relevant hits
[12:35] <cjwatson_> not sure how much you got, my router threw a wobbly
[12:36] <xivulon> cjwatson I tried to implement first guide in nsis, but as mentioned did not test at all. In theory the function calls should be equivalent
[12:36] <xivulon> obviously theory and practice are not the same thing
[12:37] <xivulon> maybe I missed the :\\?
[12:38] <xivulon> System::Call "winmm.dll::mciSendString(t 'open $cddrive\ type cdaudio alias cdrom', n, i 0, *i 0)i.r2"
[12:47] <cjwatson> but AIUI that just opens a handle
[12:47] <cjwatson> it's the "set cdrom door open" that actually ejects
[12:47] <cjwatson> and "close cdrom" to close the handle again
[12:56] <CIA-18> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2244 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog scripts/install.py):
[12:56] <CIA-18> ubiquity: * Purge ucf's state for /etc/papersize so that it will be recreated
[12:56] <CIA-18> ubiquity:  properly (LP: #128258).
[01:00] <xivulon> cjwatson you are right
[03:37] <xivulon> evand, cjwatson I might have fixed most if not all of the wubi crashes
[03:37] <xivulon> will upload soon
[03:38] <cjwatson> neat
[03:38] <cjwatson> pkl has unionfs stuff in git now that's looking good
[03:38] <cjwatson> I'm testing it
[03:38] <xivulon> it's too late for me to test that, 230am here
[03:38] <xivulon> tomorrow
[03:39] <xivulon> /xivulon moves to the bright side
[03:51] <evand> awesome all around
[04:06] <xivulon> cjwatson, evand, new wubi version is up, also updated the binary
[04:07] <xivulon> Did not test lupin stuff at all nor physical CD
[04:08] <xivulon> Eject, at least with emulated CD, does not seem too crash
[04:09] <xivulon> rev282
[04:09] <cjwatson> ok, you're just in time, I'll test that along with unionfs
[04:10] <xivulon> To test uninstallation, please start with a clean sheet, uninstallation works for me
[04:10] <cjwatson> right, assuming I can get to a clean sheet :-)
[04:10] <cjwatson> I uninstalled but I still seem to have a grub4dos hanging around
[04:10] <cjwatson> is there a brute-force way to remove that and get back to the Windows bootloader?
[04:11] <xivulon> remove folder, registry key, use easybcd for vista boot menu, and any *wubildr* files you can find
[04:11] <cjwatson> ok
[04:12] <xivulon> Have to sleep, long day tomorrow. Pls send me an email to let me know how it goes
[04:12] <evand> goodnight xivulon
[04:13] <xivulon> night everyone
[04:33] <cjwatson> urgh, now wubi is set up to download the ISO
[05:17] <evand> how's it going?
[05:17] <evand> otherwise, that is
[05:58] <cjwatson> waiting for wubi ...
[05:58] <cjwatson> otherwise unionfs seems happy
[06:00] <evand> wonderful
[06:00] <cjwatson> it's at 84%
[06:00] <cjwatson> on the upside I am catching up on an awful lot of mailing lists
[06:02] <cjwatson> wow
[06:02] <evand> hahaha
[06:02] <cjwatson> I just got to the end of my 'mailboxes' list in mutt
[06:02] <cjwatson> it's been about two years since that last happened
[06:02] <evand> wow
[06:02] <evand> mine is just over a page
[06:57] <cjwatson> ah, now this is more like it
[06:57] <cjwatson> took a bit of persuasion to get wubi to boot
[07:01] <cjwatson> still no automatic ubiquity launching though
[07:01] <cjwatson> oh, whoops, that's a bug I saw a while back and forgot to fix
[07:04] <evand> whoops, I forgot to mention that from my limited testing.
[10:19] <CIA-18> migration-assistant: evand * r59 migration-assistant/ (11 files in 3 dirs):
[10:19] <CIA-18> migration-assistant: * Use stat instead of the DT_ macros to avoid issues with fuse.
[10:19] <CIA-18> migration-assistant: * Add a debug log.
[10:19] <evand> hooray for not committing things
[10:22] <evand> cjwatson: Is the ubuntu-installer branch of ubiquity broken?
[10:22] <evand> bzr: ERROR: Can't rename /srv/sm-ng/push-branches/00/00/10/68/.bzr/repository/lock/deenek5py8.tmp to /srv/sm-ng/push-branches/00/00/10/68/.bzr/repository/lock/held: /srv/sm-ng/push-branches/00/00/10/68/.bzr/repository/lock/held already exists
[10:22] <evand> debcommit: commit failed
[10:33] <CIA-18> migration-assistant: evand * r60 migration-assistant/debian/changelog: releasing version 0.5.0
[12:14] <CIA-18> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2245 ubiquity/debian/ (changelog init): * Fix automatic-ubiquity option handling in init script.
[12:14] <cjwatson> evand: try it now but make sure you're using sftp: rather than bzr+ssh: for the time being
[12:14] <cjwatson> I fixed it by hand following advice from Robert Collins
[12:48] <CIA-18> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2246 ubiquity/ubiquity/frontend/noninteractive.py: typo
[01:06] <xivulon> cjwatson, can you detail your problems about using ISOs?
[01:07] <xivulon> probably the current restriction is that I also check the iso name
[01:07] <xivulon> for ubuntu it must be gutsy-desktop-i386.iso (as specified in isolist.ini)
[01:07] <xivulon> ISO works fine for me
[01:07] <cjwatson> xivulon: *install* from ISO can't work as I explained at length the other day
[01:08] <cjwatson> and in particular it doesn't work because partman-auto-loop fails to mount /host
[01:08] <cjwatson> (which is a consequence of a lupin bug but ...)
[01:08] <xivulon> cjwatson, by install from ISO, I mean loopinstallation
[01:09] <xivulon> as lupin bugs I still did not have a chance to boot that, so debugging was not very easy
[01:09] <xivulon> in fact lately I just concentrated on the user interface waiting for segfaults/unionfs to be resolved
[01:12] <cjwatson> xivulon: I'm sorry, I'm confused
[01:12] <cjwatson> I was up until 7am and then got four hours of sleep, bear with me
[01:12] <cjwatson> xivulon: ok, the problem is that lupin mounts the Windows filesystem as /isodevice
[01:12] <xivulon> ah I thought you were in US
[01:12] <cjwatson> due to find_iso
[01:13] <cjwatson> no, just on a US timezone :)
[01:13] <xivulon> same here, went to sleep at 3 up at 7...
[01:13] <cjwatson> and then partman-auto-loop tries to mount the same filesystem as /host
[01:13] <cjwatson> which fails because it's already mounted
[01:13] <cjwatson> so OK, I guess it's not an intrinsic problem, we should just fix it in lupin/partman-auto-loop
[01:13] <xivulon> cjwatson, I am at work now, I can have a look only tonight
[01:14] <xivulon> As for avoiding installation when the ISO is run in "read-only" mode
[01:14] <xivulon> I guess that should be a check within Ubiquity rather than wubi
[01:15] <xivulon> Moreover it would be needless to disable ubiquity completely, since if the user does have more than 1 partition, he may still be able to install from a read-only ISO installation
[01:16] <cjwatson> yeah, I think I'm just wrong due to sleep deprivation
[01:16] <xivulon> Ideally when giving the option to choose a drive/partition, the ones that are already mounted should not make the list
[01:17] <cjwatson> oh, I meant to copy up my hacked ISO
[01:17] <xivulon> and if no drive/partition is available ubiquity should simply display a message and exit
[01:20] <xivulon> re branding: tonight I can either work on the dynamic rebranding or testing lupin, I'd go with the second
[01:21] <xivulon> to do static graphical rebranding is trivial, just change the icon and header.bmp within wubi/image with another image of the same size/format
[01:21] <xivulon> I still have not received anything from the artwork team
[01:22] <cjwatson> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/tmp/gutsy-desktop-i386-wubi.iso
[01:23] <cjwatson> I love rsync
[01:23] <cjwatson> that has the always-tries-to-download ISO bug you mentioned, along with the lack of a leading backslash in the boot menu entry that I mentioned by mail and fixed
[01:23] <cjwatson> I got it to boot using editbcd
[01:24] <cjwatson> it has Phillip's unionfs fixes, which are working well for me
[01:24] <xivulon> thanks for that
[01:24] <xivulon> I'll test it tonight
[01:25] <cjwatson> and it has a nasty little partman-auto-loop bug which prevents installation
[01:25] <cjwatson> apply http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/partman-auto-loop/ubuntu/revision/cjwatson%40canonical.com-20070920103812-mgae9pjcor3xh5hy?start_revid=cjwatson%40canonical.com-20070920104108-tfnyb57itaid5v9y to /bin/autopartition-loop to fix that
[01:25] <xivulon> Was about to ask just that
[01:25] <cjwatson> that's as far as I got
[01:25] <cjwatson> xivulon: do you have an executable somewhere with your CD2ISO fixes?
[01:26] <xivulon> yeah in my usual place: http://wubi-installer.org/devel/minefields/Ubuntu-7.10-alpha.exe
[01:27] <xivulon> that does not include the backslash fix though
[01:27] <xivulon> also now it points to the latest daily build if it has to download anything AND to the metalinks on wubi-installer.org, we may want to change isolist.ini and the metalink files
[01:27] <cjwatson> ok, but that's workaroundable if you know how
[01:28] <xivulon> lates daily buld = latest ISO daily build
[01:28] <cjwatson> getting lupin and friends working is massively more important than branding
[01:28] <xivulon> I agree
[01:28] <cjwatson> I suspect that exe is too late for our daily build
[01:29] <cjwatson> looks like it from the timestamps
[01:29] <xivulon> But as mentioned I can only play with that tonight
[01:29] <cjwatson> I'm going to let a few things settle and do another CD build later on
[01:29] <xivulon> the exe is not an issue, people can simply download it separately for testing puroposes
[01:30] <cjwatson> does it behave in the same way when downloaded separately and when run from the CD?
[01:30] <xivulon> it should
[01:30] <cjwatson> ok, that's good
[01:30] <xivulon> the only difference is that if a CD is detected the distro options list is limited to the CD
[01:31] <cjwatson> right, but that's a property of the CD being inserted rather than a property of where wubi is run from?
[01:31] <xivulon> and rebranding should kick in (disabled at the moment)
[01:31] <xivulon> yes
[01:32] <cjwatson> ok, I'll try this out this afternoon
[01:32] <xivulon> when you run wubi, first thing it checks for a CD, and changes the distrolist and branding accordingly
[01:32] <cjwatson> this hsa been a fun ride so far :-)
[01:32] <xivulon> basically if you have a CD you should see only "Ubuntu" in the distro selector and see "Use CD" in the size selector
[01:33] <xivulon> if you have no CD you should see "Ubuntu|Kubuntu" in the distro selector and "Read Only" as the only "extra" option in the size selector
[01:34] <xivulon> If you select Use CD, the CD content is NOT extracted to disk. If you use Read Only the ISO content is extracted to disk.
[01:34] <xivulon> In both cases the kernel/initrd are extracted to disk
[01:35] <xivulon> glad you are enjoying it so far, I moved from hacking linux/d-i (which I like) to maintain nsis (which I hate)
[01:42] <cjwatson> well, observe my trick of turning as much of it as possible into d-i hacking ;-)
[01:42] <cjwatson> hmm, partman-auto-loop removes the .disk file and recreates it itself using dd
[01:42] <cjwatson> should it just accept one that already exists?
[01:42] <xivulon> ubi maior minor cessat
[01:43] <cjwatson> and yet your classicist credentials are so much better than mine. :)
[01:44] <xivulon> cjwatson, I though that the idea was that we test for the existance of *.disk and if any is found we abort the installation
[01:44] <xivulon> This was the behaviour in old version of wubi
[01:44] <cjwatson> but doesn't wubi preallocate the .disk files?
[01:44] <xivulon> Not anymore
[01:44] <cjwatson> so by the time partman-auto-loop runs they'll exist
[01:45] <xivulon> nope, there should only be a disks folder with an empty boot folder in it
[01:46] <xivulon> I can generate the files from within wubi if you want, the only advantage is that I can use a windows api to preallocate the space without zeroing the full thing
[01:46] <cjwatson> ah
[01:46] <cjwatson> ok, no problem then
[01:46] <cjwatson> "This shows that the ancient Romans were quite good at text compression. Probably their Empire fell when they accidentally deleted all the copies of pkzip from their abaci."
[01:47] <cjwatson> no, I'm happy with it done in Linux
[01:47] <xivulon> good one :)
[01:47] <cjwatson> makes the sanity check easier
[01:48] <xivulon> I agree, that's why I disabled it
[01:48] <cjwatson> although yes it's slower, should do something about that
[01:48] <xivulon> so if you see any .disk file you should refuse to overwrite them. The user has to uninstall explicitly if they want to overwrite stuff.
[01:49] <cjwatson> yep, I do that
[01:49] <xivulon> great
[01:49] <cjwatson> you get a "Loop-mounted file systems already present" error
[01:49] <cjwatson> or at least you should :)
[01:51] <xivulon> Can we add a non geek line as well? something like: "If you want to reinstall Ubuntu, please first uninstall the existing installation and then run the installer again"
[01:51] <cjwatson> post-beta
[01:51] <cjwatson> yeah, I was just trying to avoid branding; could you file a bug on partman-auto-loop and I'll come up with something?
[01:52] <xivulon> you mean for the non-geek message?
[01:52] <cjwatson> yes
[01:53] <cjwatson> I try to avoid saying "Ubuntu" in d-i strings because it requires branding for derivatives
[01:53] <xivulon> partman-auto-loop does not use Launchpad as its bug tracker.
[01:53] <cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/partman-auto-loop/+filebug
[01:53] <cjwatson> i.e. the source package in Ubuntu, not the product
[01:53] <xivulon> of course
[01:55] <xivulon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/partman-auto-loop/+bug/141217
[01:59] <cjwatson> thanks
[02:12] <xivulon> By the way, I should be in Boston wed/thu/fri I hope I'll be able to attend some of the installer meetings.
[02:22] <cjwatson> excellent
[02:22] <cjwatson> you're based in London aren't you?
[02:24] <xivulon> yeah
[02:24] <xivulon> want a beer?
[02:26] <cjwatson> I was thinking more of a hack session in the London office :)
[02:26] <cjwatson> it's much more worth it now than it would have been early on when so few of the pieces were present
[02:26] <cjwatson> (but sure, perhaps a beer afterwards ...)
[02:29] <xivulon> I'd love to, but the only issue with that is that I work during the week and I'll be away the next 2 weekends
[02:30] <xivulon> I can try to pop in "early" on next monday/tuesday. Early being 5pm
[02:31] <cjwatson> hmm, not ideal
[02:31] <cjwatson> I'm not sure I can get down then
[02:31] <cjwatson> I'm due in London on 9 Oct
[02:44] <xivulon> I can get a few hours off on the 9th then, hopefully there should not be much to do by then
[03:30] <xivulon> shall I add a --safe-mode switch that sets up menu.lst for the installer with noacpi and safe screen resolution?
[03:32] <cjwatson> I think it should be consistent with what we make available on our normal CDs
[03:32] <cjwatson> which means "safe graphics mode" adding the xforcevesa command-line option
[03:33] <xivulon> sure
[03:34] <xivulon> to make it simple for users, I was thinking that we may add one or two shortcuts, like wubi-safe-mode.exe, or have a special link on the CD webpage
[03:39] <cjwatson> how about getting Henrik to make it an option in winfoss
[03:39] <cjwatson> or make it a checkbox on the wubi UI
[03:39] <cjwatson> the latter might be better actually
[03:39] <cjwatson> and I repeat, please "safe graphics mode", it's not analogous to Windows safe mode and I don't want it confused
[03:42] <xivulon> what about noapic stuff? I know you mentioned it should be fixed properly, but for instance for my laptop I need acpi=off
[03:44] <cjwatson> right but that doesn't make it a safe mode
[03:44] <cjwatson> it makes it a workaround for your laptop
[03:44] <cjwatson> it's not correct to call it safe across the board
[03:45] <cjwatson> if it were, after all, we'd probably just make it the default
[03:45] <xivulon> What about "unsupported hardware fix" or something?
[03:45] <cjwatson> no
[03:46] <cjwatson> I don't want this sort of thing to get out of sync between wubi and our regular installer
[03:46] <cjwatson> this is hugely important - we can't support it if it's out of sync
[03:47] <cjwatson> and I really do think this should be handled by filing a bug on the kernel and getting them to add a quirk
[03:47] <cjwatson> it's usually straightforward if you attach dmidecode output
[03:48] <xivulon> As command line I can support as many options as you want (and will support the same parameters), but on the user interface I am a bit space constrained
[03:56] <cjwatson> xivulon: how about a button that pops up a dialog into which you can type in extra boot options if you need them?
[03:56] <cjwatson> there are lots of different workarounds that one might potentially need on different hardware, and I'm not sure enumerating them in the UI is worthwhile
[03:59] <xivulon> My idea is was to make the geeks happy via command-line parameters and non-geeks happy with a single "catch-them-all" workaround
[03:59] <cjwatson> but it is NOT a single catch-them-all workaround
[03:59] <xivulon> We used to have an "advanced" page, we might resurrect that, but I like it much better with a single page.
[03:59] <cjwatson> it fixes your laptop
[03:59] <cjwatson> it fixes a number of people's systems
[03:59] <cjwatson> it is far from complete
[04:01] <cjwatson> I agree that a single page is nicer, but on the other hand advanced boot options might not belong on the main interface
[04:01] <xivulon> I understand that but if we can cover most common cases in one go the ones that are left out may well read a guide and submit the parameters via command line
[04:01] <cjwatson> maybe thinking of it as a dialog rather than a page would be better
[04:01] <cjwatson> but people will check the "make my hardware work" box and then complain because they're one of the people whose hardware it breaks
[04:02] <xivulon> I see but people with complex setup will still need to read a lot of info to guess what is the right parameters for them
[04:02] <cjwatson> or some people will probably need some combination of the usual workarounds but not all
[04:02] <xivulon> Why should we force all the others to read the guide when we can fix most of them in one go?
[04:02] <cjwatson> because we can't fix most of them in one go
[04:02] <cjwatson> we will cause confusion by providing this "make it work" box that doesn't
[04:03] <cjwatson> I honestly think you're extrapolating from the specific to the general
[04:03] <cjwatson> and it is very non-Ubuntu-like to provide a workaround checkbox like that when it should really be fixed properly in the kernel, imo
[04:03] <cjwatson> if we provide a workaround checkbox, we'll stop hearing from people about it
[04:04] <cjwatson> and it will become harder to make it Just Work across the board
[04:05] <cjwatson> ultimately Ubuntu should not require this sort of magic workaround boot option at all on common hardware. Making it too easy to find the workaround does make it easier for affected users in the short term, but it unfortunately also makes it more likely that there will be more affected users in the long-term, because the affected users will be less likely to file bugs
[04:05] <cjwatson> I feel quite strongly about this :)
[04:07] <xivulon> Well it's clearly a trade off: bug reports (= number of happy new users tomorrow) vs number of happy new users today
[04:08] <cjwatson> we're still in the early adopter phase
[04:08] <cjwatson> well, maybe late early adopter :)
[04:08] <cjwatson> it's really important to get good bugs from early adopters - there are orders of magnitude fewer people using Ubuntu now than we hope will use it in the future
[04:09] <xivulon> All I am saying, is that if you go for bug reports, I don't see much point in putting up a page with cryptic things like "acpi", "vesa" & co. I'd rather just support command line options.
[04:09] <xivulon> Anything on the user interface has to be grandma-proof
[04:09] <cjwatson> it needs to correspond to the things people can google for under "why won't my <system name here> boot with Ubuntu?"
[04:10] <cjwatson> so inventing cutesy names for it like "safe mode" is just going to confuse, I think
[04:10] <cjwatson> it is very important to be consistent with other Ubuntu installation methods
[04:11] <cjwatson> I think a command line option that goes --boot-args="acpi=off noapic" would be useful, since then we could provide instructions to afflicted users
[04:11] <xivulon> Yeah but if they bother googling for it they can just add a command line parameter, no need to sugar that with a user interface that will scare the crap of the 90% of the other users
[04:11] <cjwatson> and the instructions could take the opportunity to say "please file a bug about this so that we can make sure people aren't affected in future"
[04:11] <cjwatson> sounds reasonable
[04:13] <xivulon> Ok so no change to user interface and I will support --boot-args="*" and maybe some other convenience flag
[04:13] <cjwatson> paradoxically I think that might actually get more users on broken hardware. the reason is that if you have a "safe mode" item that isn't absolutely 100%, people in the 100% minus (whatever) are likely to give up when safe mode doesn't work for them - obviously Ubuntu is just fucked on their hardware
[04:13] <cjwatson> whereas if the interface is boot options, they have to google for it and they might well find that there's something that works
[04:14] <cjwatson> basically if we're into safe mode territory we have already lost the most timid users
[04:14] <cjwatson> and a sizeable proportion of the rest are likely to persist for a little while if it's "but I just need to find the right rune"
[04:16] <Knuta> is a d-i package with the https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/73647 fix already uploaded to some secret place, or do people still need to rebuild things to netboot with bnx2? The "One-liner fix." comment in the bug is not very informing :-|
[04:16] <xivulon> I'd add a page to web interface of the CD: if wubi does not work for you see a list of possible reasons and solutions, wich will explain common options and have a link to launch wubi with appropriate parameters
[04:16] <cjwatson> Knuta: edgy isn't likely to get a point release, but bnx2 should be included in 6.06.2 when it's released (fairly soon)
[04:17] <Knuta> cjwatson: I'm using dapper
[04:17] <cjwatson> ah, your URL said 2.6.17 so I assumed you meant edgy
[04:17] <Knuta> cjwatson: I think the bug covers both
[04:17] <cjwatson> "One-liner fix" was Martin's comment justifying targeting it for 6.06.2
[04:18] <cjwatson> the kernels for that haven't been uploaded yet though (and in fact this is the major outstanding blocker for 6.06.2)
[04:19] <Knuta> people are kicking me around because they can't install ubuntu on the new servers :-|
[04:19] <Knuta> what does "fairly soon" mean? a week? a month?
[04:20] <cjwatson> I believe current schedule is beginning of Oct
[04:27] <xivulon> cjwatson did you see my comments on winfoss wubi troubleshooting page?
[04:29] <cjwatson> no
[04:29] <cjwatson> oh, maybe
[04:29] <cjwatson> 15:16 <xivulon> I'd add a page to web interface of the CD: if wubi does not work for you see a list of possible reasons and solutions, wich will explain common options and have a link to launch wubi with
[04:29] <cjwatson>                 appropriate parameters
[04:29] <cjwatson> that?
[04:29] <cjwatson> seems reasonable
[04:30] <xivulon> there was another piece
[04:30] <xivulon> Basically have a Winfoss page "Wubi Troubleshooting" and a sister page "LiveCD Troubleshooting"
[04:31] <xivulon> Then have a block for each common problem with a checkbox close to it. Something like: my screen resolution is *##~* Y/N
[04:31] <xivulon> Then a button with "Try Wubi With Common Workarounds"
[04:32] <xivulon> That button will launch wubi with appropriate boot parameter and show another winfoss page
[04:32] <xivulon> Submit bug report so that we can improve support for your hardware in the future
[05:24] <xivulon> cjwatson you mentioned you might have built another ISO with the patch. Please let me know if that is the case.
[05:25] <cjwatson> with which patch?
[05:25] <xivulon> http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/partman-auto-loop/ubuntu/revision/cjwatson%40canonical.com-20070920103812-mgae9pjcor3xh5hy?start_revid=cjwatson%40canonical.com-20070920104108-tfnyb57itaid5v9y
[05:26] <cjwatson> oh, no, not yet
[05:26] <cjwatson> needs a ubiquity upload first, for which I was sort of planning to wait for translations
[05:26] <cjwatson> you can just edit it on the fly
[05:26] <xivulon> and anything else that you might have fixed in the meantime
[05:28] <xivulon> np
[05:38] <xivulon> Had another idea re safe mode stuff, now the grub menu that launches the installer/liveiso is hidden away...
[05:39] <xivulon> I could simply add other items to menu.lst, and have a 5 sec black screen that says "Hit esc if you have problems booting with wubi..."
[05:41] <xivulon> The grub titles might be things like: "Standard|Workaround for graphics problems|Workarounds for XYZ problem..."
[05:42] <cjwatson> that would be a bit better
[05:43] <cjwatson> I'm still concerned that it wouldn't match Ubuntu, and that we don't have room for more menu entries on Ubuntu CDs (it would scroll and the user experience gets messy)
[05:43] <cjwatson> but I see I am not going to persuade you with that argument
[05:43] <cjwatson> have you at least filed a bug about your own laptop?
[05:44] <xivulon> It's already there
[05:45] <xivulon> No need to persuade me, I'll do what you say, just throwing out ideas
[05:45] <cjwatson> well, I'm assuming that this is coming from wubi users as well as just you
[05:47] <xivulon> Well graphics was less than an issue for us because we used the alternate iso, I'd expect to see more tickets there once we work with live cd
[05:47] <xivulon> We had a few users that required acpi fixes
[11:42] <xivulon> cjwatson,evand I have uploaded a new build including latest revisions (no change on my part)
[11:59] <CIA-18> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2248 ubiquity/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog):
[11:59] <CIA-18> ubiquity: * Automatic update of included source packages: hw-detect 1.53ubuntu2,
[11:59] <CIA-18> ubiquity:  kboot-installer 0.0.1ubuntu4, localechooser 1.38ubuntu2,
[11:59] <CIA-18> ubiquity:  migration-assistant 0.5.0, partman-auto-loop 0ubuntu7, partman-base
[11:59] <CIA-18> ubiquity:  107ubuntu3.
[12:03] <CIA-18> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2249 ubiquity/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.5.16
[12:10] <xivulon> cjwatson,evand will have to upload again
[12:13] <xivulon> done rev291


[04:45] <flowerpot> Am I correct in understanding that pidfiles are not necessary when using upstart?
[14:03] <qkslvrwolf> hello, all
[14:03] <qkslvrwolf> I'm still having trouble getting my upstart job to work when I need it to.
[14:06] <qkslvrwolf> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1004781
[14:06] <qkslvrwolf> I'm trying to make sure that my context script runs BEFORE the network interfaces come up
[14:06] <qkslvrwolf> I know this is running
[14:06] <qkslvrwolf> but it runs after something has read /etc/network/interfaces and brought up eth1
[14:06] <qkslvrwolf> and I can't find out what.
[14:11] <qkslvrwolf> wait...prestart scripts run before emitting starting, don't they?
[14:30] <qkslvrwolf> nevermind, got it to work.  not as cleanly as I would've liked, but it works.
[17:28] <djszapi> slangasek: ping
[17:28] <slangasek> hi there
[17:28] <djszapi> slangasek: how can I make sure the sleep 60 in my upstart job is not executed for an install ?
[17:28] <djszapi> I mean for package install
[17:28] <djszapi> if I would like to stop the currently running instance and start
[17:28] <djszapi> since the system is up anyway
[17:29] <djszapi> and it is just annoyingly slowing down the reinstall of a new version
[17:29] <djszapi> it should only be considered for a boot
[17:29] <slangasek> you could key on the $UPSTART_EVENTS variable
[17:29] <slangasek> this will be empty when started manually (as from a package maintainer script)
[17:30] <djszapi> is that a hack or the right approach ?
[17:30] <djszapi> not that sleep is already a right approach, but we have not found better way.
[17:31] <djszapi> slangasek: ^
[17:31] <slangasek> that's the right approach for distinguishing between a manual start and a boot-time start, yes
[17:32] <djszapi> slangasek: what is the exact syntax ?
[17:33] <slangasek> you're just checking for an environment variable; see /etc/init/lightdm.conf for an example usage
[17:34] <djszapi> I do not have lightdm on the pandaboard.
[17:35] <djszapi> if [ -n "${UPSTART_STOP_EVENTS}" ]
[17:35] <djszapi> oh
[17:37] <djszapi> slangasek: what is the opposite of -n ?
[17:37] <slangasek> if ! [ -n "$UPSTART_EVENTS" ] ?
[17:38] <slangasek> you want UPSTART_EVENTS, not UPSTART_STOP_EVENTS; sorry, lightdm.conf uses both
[17:38] <djszapi> I know which one we want.
[17:38] <djszapi> I did not know the syntax for negation
[17:38] <djszapi> no, lightdm.conf is simply not available
[17:38] <djszapi> that was a bad example
[17:39] <djszapi> slangasek: http://paste.kde.org/486188/ this one ?
[17:40] <slangasek> you don't want to negate it
[17:40] <slangasek> you want if [ -n "$UPSTART_EVENTS" ]; then sleep 60; fi
[17:40] <slangasek> UPSTART_EVENTS is empty in the package install case, non-empty at boot
[17:41] <djszapi> doesn't -n mean null ?
[17:41] <djszapi> as in zero ?
[17:41] <djszapi> it means not zero ?
[17:41] <djszapi> very weird syntax then...
[17:42] <djszapi> slangasek: http://paste.kde.org/486194/ this one ?
[17:42] <slangasek> yep
[17:43] <djszapi> slangasek: can I use comment anywhere in that file ?
[17:43] <djszapi> even right before the check ?
[17:43] <djszapi> just for making a note about this since it is not a usual case...
[17:43] <slangasek> yes
[17:44] <slangasek> upstart uses the same comment character as the shell (#), so comments are safe anywhere
[17:44] <slangasek> (provided you put them on a line by themselves)


[00:03] <bazhang> Arnold, how may we help you
[00:03] <Arnold> I dunno I just came in her to see what was up
[00:04] <genii> !idle
[00:04] <bazhang> Arnold, this is a no idle channel, if you dont have an issue please part the channel
[00:05] <Arnold> I have many issues but I hate sounding like a broken record
[00:05] <Arnold> Who are the ops in here for #linux
[00:05] <bazhang> Arnold, what is the issue
[00:05] <bazhang> Arnold, this is for #ubuntu channels only.
[00:06] <Arnold> hmmm
[00:06] <Arnold> How much longer til my bans in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic go away?
[00:09] <genii> @btlogin
[00:09] <Arnold> what?
[00:10] <bazhang> Arnold, no time soon.
[00:10] <Arnold> I didn't think so, they're permanent aren't they?
[00:10] <bazhang> very few are permanent.
[00:11] <bazhang> exhibit some mature/responsible behaviour and they may be reviewed.
[00:11] <Arnold> How can I do that in those channels when I am banned
[00:11] <genii> Arnold: They are in place until the op which banned you unbans or another op reviews it,checks with original op who banned and then unbans
[00:12] <Arnold> Who actually banned me in those two channels?
[00:12] <bazhang> Arnold, you need to /msg those operators and get unbanned, then stay out of trouble/stop trolling incessantly, asking for trolling tips etc
[00:12] <Arnold> that wasnt me
[00:13] <bazhang> Arnold, sure it was. please dont idle here.
[00:13] <Arnold> Who banned me in those two channels
[00:16]  * genii pokes at Flannel
[00:17] <Arnold> Flannel did huh
[00:17] <genii> Arnold: They aren't here currently. Try again later
[00:18]  * genii makes more coffee
[00:18] <nalioth> arnold is bearshare
[00:20] <genii> Hm
[00:21] <bazhang> also J_dahmer , smis , and jw_gacy iirc
[00:37] <Flannel> just search for bilok
[00:37]  * Flannel still isn't here, by the way.
[00:39] <genii> heh
[00:42] <genii> I gather ther is some kind of history there with Flannel/bilok (or whatever they call themselves now)
[00:48] <Flannel> I don't believe so.
[00:48] <Flannel> Actually, I'm not the one who banned him most recently either
[00:48] <Flannel> but, check the BT for bilok, you'll have plenty of reading material
[00:48]  * genii gets a coffee tray ready for his bed
[00:53]  * nalioth buys genii an intravenous coffee infuser
[00:53] <genii> Woohoo!
[00:55]  * mneptok fills it with decaf
[00:56] <genii> damn!
[00:59]  * genii sips
[02:53]  * Pici goes back to vacation-mode
[03:25] <mnaines> Why is it I can't talk to an admin without the admin being biased or narrow-minded?
[03:25] <nalioth> mnaines: after that little bit, probably not here
[03:26] <mnaines> nalioth: Well, I have no other place to talk about it...Flannel is being temperamental as usual and now he's threatening to ban me from the Ubuntu-offtopic
[03:26] <mnaines> Someone needs to put him on a leash and send someone less biased to admin that room
[03:26] <nalioth> starting out civilly is a plus
[03:27] <mnaines> I am trying to start out civilly, but I feel I won't get a civil conversation unless I can talk to someone who is open-minded and unbiased
[03:28] <nalioth> 2but your first utterance slaps us all in the face
[03:29] <mnaines> nalioth: Well, when all of you are as obsessed with the rules as Flannel is, its kinda hard to make me believe any conversation I have with you will be civil and clean
[03:29] <Flannel> mnaines: I threatened to ban you from -ot?
[03:30] <mnaines> I asked Flannel about the appeals process, but I decided against filing an appeal because I feel I won't get a fair chance because everyone sides with Flannel and is as obsessed about the rules as he is
[03:31] <nalioth> mnaines: so we're not supposed to follow the rules?
[03:32] <mnaines> nalioth: I'm not saying that...What I'm saying is I disagree with the whole idea that the rules are more important than making sure people get the help they need
[03:32] <nalioth> mnaines: the rules are in place to ensure that folks _do_ get the help they need
[03:32] <nalioth> if we're going over the DSL situation from t'other day, it's been covered enough.
[03:32] <mnaines> And after talking to the admins in here, that obsession that the rules are more important than anything else makes me feel I won't get a fair chance at an appeal
[03:33] <mnaines> nalioth: Its not that...I came in here now to appeal the banishment Flannel did to me from Ubuntu, but I feel I won't get a fair chance at an appeal because you guys all side with him and his way of thinking
[03:34] <mnaines> None of you are willing to question him and that's why I feel that way
[03:34] <nalioth> mnaines: i see you enjoying -offtopic and then suddenly start trolling Flannel
[03:34] <nalioth> probably related to the DSL incident
[03:35] <nalioth> which we've discussed
[03:35] <mnaines> No...I went into -offtopic after getting banned from Ubuntu and went on a rant about different topics, but many ops got fed up with my inane chatter
[03:36] <mnaines> I first rambled on about my hatred of Windows and two ops sat there complaining
[03:36] <mnaines> Then I changed the topic to politics and started bashing America and they began getting angry
[03:37] <nalioth> well, politics is off topic in #ubuntu-* channels
[03:38] <mnaines> I tried to keep it non-o4o as much as I could, and I even had the people I was talking to say it was hard for them to do the same
[03:38] <mnaines> But one of the people I talked to was from another country and he actually agreed with most of the things I was saying
[03:39] <mnaines> During that discussion, the topic changed from politics to how lazy Americans are and how bad their diets are
[03:39] <mnaines> I still bashed America, but in a different way
[03:40] <nalioth> what are you here for, presently?  I'm not seeing any new issues being brought up.
[03:40] <mnaines> nalioth: I came here to appeal my banishment from Ubuntu, but I feel the ops here are too biased and that you all will side with Flannel and for those reasons I feel I won't get a fair chance at an appeal
[03:41] <nalioth> mnaines: flannel enforces the rules.  We all do.    The rules you keep bringing up were discussed with you previously, and I see no reason to rehash that chat.
[03:44] <mnaines> nalioth: So I can't appeal my banishment?
[03:45] <nalioth> mnaines: you have been doing so.
[03:45] <mnaines> Talking to Flannel is like talking to a wall...Nothing I say to him seems to make any sense
[03:45] <Flannel> mnaines: Earlier you were told to come back in two days to discuss it once you've had some time to think.  It's suggested you do so.
[03:46] <mnaines> Well, I have considered your suggestion and decided not to heed it...
[03:46] <mnaines> I am back now...Whether you like it or not
[03:47] <mnaines> We can either discuss this as gentlemen in an unbiased and professional way or we can both leave IRC
[03:48] <nalioth> mnaines: there is nothing to discuss.  you broke the rules of the channel and got sanctioned.
[03:48] <mnaines> nalioth: I am simply trying to appeal my case with him...Can't I do that?
[03:48] <Flannel> mnaines: We'll revisit your ban when you come back in two days.
[03:49] <nalioth> mnaines: unless i'm having a surprise MPD episode, I think you're talking to me
[03:49] <mnaines> nalioth: Yes, and you see why I am talking to you...As I told you earlier, talking to flannel is like talking to a wall
[03:50] <mnaines> nalioth: He doesn't want to listen, so I am talking to you hoping you will listen
[03:51] <mnaines> nalioth: But it seems as if you are as biased as Flannel is
[03:51] <nalioth> mnaines: we are going in circles here.
[03:51] <nalioth> you broke the channel rules.
[03:51] <nalioth> you got sanctioned.
[03:51] <nalioth> you are not "special"
[03:52] <mnaines> nalioth: Neither are the ops
[03:52] <Pici> I think you misunderstand the meaning of an appeal. It does not mean that your ban will be reversed, it means that someone else will look at the situation and see if you were treated fairly.
[03:52] <nalioth> if you have nothing further, mnaines, please respect our /topic
[03:52] <mnaines> Pici: then why call it an appeal?
[03:52] <nalioth> mnaines: because in some cases, the ops _are_ wrong
[03:52] <nalioth> but not this one.
[03:53] <mnaines> nalioth: Seems like everywhere I go, people in positions of authority are allowed to get away with everything...It happens a lot IRL where I live
[03:54] <mnaines> Like, for example, I got a traffic ticket for turning into the outside lane AFTER the cop who turned in front of me did it himself
[03:54] <nalioth> mnaines: nobody is getting away with anything here.  If you have nothing further, please respect our /topic
[03:54] <Pici> appeal: noun: a formal question as to the correctness of a ruling by a presiding officer
[03:55] <mnaines> nalioth: Even talking about this in the -offtopic room, I still get in trouble
[03:55] <nalioth> mnaines: yes, trolling the ops is off topic
[03:55] <mnaines> What, I can't criticise an op?
[03:55] <Flannel> Also, you didn't get in trouble.  You were told (repeatedly) that it was offtopic, and should move to an appropriate venue.
[03:56] <mnaines> Flannel, and when I did go to the off-topic room, you guys still complained about my topics of conversation
[03:57] <nalioth> mnaines: "trolling" is off topic on freenode, not just #ubuntu-*
[03:57] <mnaines> I first rambled on about my hatred of Windows and the first words I got out of the ops in there were "oh, no...Not this again" and "Why did you have to bring this up"
[03:57] <Flannel> mnaines: no, no.  You were told that the discussion you were having with me in -ot was appropriate for this channel, instead of -offtopic.
[03:58] <mnaines> And I come in here to talk about it and now people want me to leave...So where do you want me to discuss this issue?
[03:58] <nalioth> mnaines: the only 'issue' is your failure to acknowledge that you broke the rules of the channel
[03:59] <mnaines> I did not fail to acknowledge I broke the rules...I've never denied I broke the rules...I am not debating the rules nor am I debating my conduct in that room...I am questioning Flannel's mindset and beliefs
[04:00] <mnaines> I am being a critic of Flannel's way of doing things...
[04:00] <nalioth> mnaines: please come back and see us on Friday
[04:01] <mnaines> Its Tuesday...I think you got your math wrong
[04:01] <mnaines> Tuesday at 10:00pm where I live
[04:02] <nalioth> mnaines: my math is correct.  Please come and see us on Friday, August 28
[04:05] <mnaines> Then you better tell Flannel to chill out when I start up with this talk in the offtopic room
[04:05] <nalioth> mnaines: i'd suggest you read our channel guidelines and the CoC
[04:06] <nalioth> ubottu: tell mnaines about guidelines
[04:06] <mnaines> I did read them...I even read the guidelines the ops are supposed to follow
[04:06] <mnaines> But they're guidelines, not actual rules
[04:08]  * nalioth proposes we rename the guidelines to "iron-fisted-rules-whose-violation-means-weasels-in-your-pockets"
[04:08] <Pici> Some people might enjoy that
[04:08] <nalioth> WEASELS!
[04:08] <Pici> Or maybe I'm confusing weasels with ferrets
[04:09] <nalioth> same animal
[04:10] <Flannel> ferrets are illegal where I live since they maul babies.
[04:10] <Flannel> I suppose that means genii would be illegal too.
[04:35] <KB1JWQ> Flannel: You live in Clalifornia?
[04:35] <KB1JWQ> Which is like California, but not.
[04:37] <Flannel> KB1JWQ: I do.  Which is good, since I'm in charge of the CA LoCo team.
[04:38] <Flannel> And having to travel across state lines would make that annoying.
[04:38] <KB1JWQ> Flannel: I'm not in charge of much, but I'm in Los Angeles.
[04:39] <Flannel> Aye, I checked your callsign
[04:39] <Flannel> KB1JWQ: You're (somewhat) in charge of freenode!
[04:40] <vorian> Flannel: i'm an Idahoan now \o/
[04:40] <vorian> if that's even the right name
[04:40] <Flannel> vorian: Considering you're calling yourself one, I imagine you can make up whatever you want
[04:40] <vorian> good point :P
[07:00] <phix> hey
[07:00] <phix> I have a ubuntu related question, who wants to be my proxy? :)
[07:01] <Flannel> phix: This isn't a support channel.
[07:04] <phix> yeah I know, but my banned hasn't been lifted yet, was only supposed to last a few days
[07:05] <phix> can you ask a question in there on my behalf? :)
[07:06] <Flannel> phix: No.  You'll have to go through the process of getting your ban lifted.
[07:07] <phix> ok
[07:07] <phix> can you look into that for me?
[07:08] <Flannel> phix: Do you understand why you were banned?
[07:09] <phix> yes, I used inappropriate language
[07:10] <Flannel> and were abusive and rude
[07:10] <phix> I believe I conveyed my opionions about an operator in the channel too, without first asking his permission to do so in a private chat message
[07:11] <phix> and I think I was offtopic a bit too, which I took into the offtopic channel but apparantly they have the same rules about language in there as well, I understand that now
[07:12] <Flannel> phix: And you understand that the language isn't allowed, and you shouldn't be rude and abusive?
[07:20] <phix> yes
[07:20] <phix> That message has firmly been imprinted now
[07:21] <Flannel> phix: And you feel that you can follow our channgel guidelines if let back into #ubuntu?
[07:21] <phix> of course
[07:21] <Flannel> (this requires that you've read them, obviously)
[07:21] <phix> obviously
[07:22] <phix> they havn't changed recently have they?
[07:22] <Flannel> No.  What's the tenth guideline, out of curiosity? (yes, you can look)
[07:22] <phix> I reckon it is relavent to me
[07:23] <phix> "Don't be annoying"?
[07:23] <Flannel> I just couldn't remember.  Thanks for the reminder.
[07:24] <Flannel> phix: Alright, I'm going to remove your bans in #ubuntu, give me a sec
[07:24] <phix> ok thank you
[07:25] <Flannel> phix: alright, please join to make sure I got them all.
[07:26] <phix> 16:26 -!- Cannot join to channel #ubuntu-offtopic (You are banned)
[07:26] <Flannel> Alright, sounds good.
[07:26] <Flannel> Right, I haven't removed the bans from -offtopic yet
[07:26] <jussi01> phix: also, it would be a nice touch if you wouldnt mind changing your ident. this isnt an order, just a request.
[07:27] <Flannel> But you don't need -ot to get Ubuntu support
[07:27] <phix> what's wrong with my ident?
[07:28] <phix> my /whois you mean?
[07:28] <phix> or identd?
[07:28] <jussi01> phix: the threat part ;)
[07:28] <phix> ah, that is my alternick
[07:28] <phix> suits me ay :)
[07:29] <jussi01> phix: wel whatever, as I said, just a request. ;)
[07:29] <phix> ok, I will look into it, it just means phix will show up on severs I usually use threat for
[07:29] <phix> not sure if I can do that with identd, perhaps I can with my realname bit
[07:30] <ikonia> "threat for" ?
[07:30] <phix> that is my username
[07:31] <ikonia> oh I see
[07:31] <phix> for my server (running Debian for the server of course :P)
[07:31] <phix> any way, thanx for the help
[07:31] <phix> We can continue this discussin in offtopic if you like
[07:31] <ikonia> it's fine
[07:41] <topyli> @btlogin
[07:45] <Myrtti> hello sten2
[07:46] <Myrtti> he's been idle for quite a while
[09:08] <jussi01> !no, test is <reply>yes, I'm alive.
[09:08] <jussi01> !test
[12:18] <jussi01> juliux: you may want to remove this channel from your autojoin ;) Also, feel free to idle in #ubuntu-irc
[12:23] <jpds> jussi01: But then again, he may not want to?
[12:26] <juliux> jussi01: yep
[13:22] <bazhang> wow
[13:23] <gnomefreak> bot is gone?
[13:23] <bazhang> seems to be
[13:28] <elky> Myrtti, i'm doubting that we had this many ban slots
[13:29] <Myrtti> might not, but it's still trying
[13:30] <elky> hyes, and throwing in a -z every time for twice the obnoxiousness
[13:30] <jussi01> !test
[13:30] <jussi01> gnomefreak: ?
[13:30] <jussi01> oh
[13:31] <gnomefreak> jussi01: its there it seems major lag
[13:31] <gnomefreak> not here but bot lag
[13:32] <gnomefreak> ~4minutes from command to output
[13:32] <ubot3`> gnomefreak: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[13:33] <elky> lol
[13:39] <Myrtti> !staff | xsense, Sky_Sea botnet owners?
[13:39] <Myrtti> [15:39] [freenode] ~~~xsense<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:39] <Myrtti> [15:39] [freenode] ~~~ ircname  : BotNet Bir Tutkudur.
[14:26]  * genii makes some more coffee and considers mauling some babies
[15:08] <orochi> Well, I mentioned this in #freenode and their response was literally "who cares," so perhaps I'll mention it here. :> The botnet attack on the channel earlier -- from retracing some steps and translating some of the language that was being used I've determined not only who the attack was orchestrated by, but also the IP address at which the botnet's control center is located.
[15:11] <ikonia> really, only freenode can deal with that but we do have staff in here, so feel free to share
[15:11] <elky> orochi, have you contacted the ISP?
[15:11] <orochi> elky: I've e-mailed their ISP, yes. I also have the e-mail address of the attacker.
[15:12] <elky> orochi, i wouldn't recommend you bring yourself to their attention.
[15:12] <orochi> I'll post what I know in a few lines: the attacker's username -was- xsense, IP address <IP_ADDRESS>. By no small coincidence there's an IRCD running at that IP address on port 4444; join that server and you're redirected to the #botnet channel.
[15:14] <orochi> elky: Unfortunately they probably became aware of me when I told them that I knew they were behind it, shortly after which they left quickly. :>
[15:14] <orochi> The site administrator's e-mail address<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:16] <orochi> Why he thought it'd be a good idea to host the control network on his own webserver is questionable, but there you have it...script kiddies, exposed. :> That's all that I know, beyond the fact that the ISP themselves haven't responded by phone yet.
[15:20] <orochi> ...Well, I'll assume by the silence that this perhaps isn't the most useful information, which I suppose makes sense considering the botnet attack is over with, but food for thought I suppose. :>
[15:20] <ikonia> oh
[15:20]  * genii makes more coffee
[15:22] <elky> yay for vigilantism. i wonder if he realises this is a logged channel.
[15:24] <Myrtti> I wonder if he realises that if he figured it out, we probably figured it out too, and many of us are on #freenode
[15:25] <Myrtti> btw, bruening on #ubuntu
[15:25] <ikonia> he'sbanned
[15:25] <ikonia> ban dodging
[15:25] <ikonia> AGAIN
[15:25] <ikonia> let me check BT as it was my ban
[15:27] <ikonia> ahhh no
[15:27] <ikonia> just offtopic
[15:27] <Myrtti> yup
[15:27] <ikonia> I wanted to ban him in #ubuntu too as him and his friends where sat in #archlinux-offtopic discussing how to do it
[15:27] <Myrtti> just a heads up
[15:28] <ikonia> they trolled offtopic but didn't do #ubuntu - but in my mind should have gone
[15:47] <ikonia> I didn't think the freenode irc daemon supported SSL ?
[15:48] <Pici> It doesn;t
[15:49] <ikonia> then why is mnaines saying he connects using SSL
[15:49] <ikonia> other than the obvious
[15:49]  * Pici shrugs
[15:50] <topyli> he also says he worked with mainframes, rewiring vacuum tubes and such
[15:51] <ikonia> troll
[15:52] <topyli> more like the usenet kooks of the golden days
[15:54] <mneptok> gunh ... bruenig
[15:54] <ikonia> mneptok: what now ?
[15:54] <jussi01> mneptok: just show him a photo of you :P
[15:55] <mneptok> ikonia: just reading scrool as i sip the coffee that genii DCC's me every morning
[15:55] <ikonia> ah
[15:55]  * genii hears something about coffee
[15:55] <genii> :)
[15:55] <mneptok> genii: a little less sugar next time? kthx.
[15:56] <mneptok> oh, and what MORON decided KB1JWQ should be an op? there goes the neighborhood!
[15:56] <mneptok> *smewch*
[15:56]  * mneptok polishes his halo
[15:57]  * genii makes a note as to mneptok's coffee preferences
[16:00] <jussi01> mneptok: even worse, someone made him staff o.O :P
[16:00] <mneptok>  /quit i prefer networks with reasonable staff guidelines ... like EFnet
[16:00] <jussi01> *g*
[16:02]  * genii slides KB1JWQ a coffee on the sly
[16:27] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[16:27]  * jussi01 wonders how ikonia's travel plans are coming along
[17:05] <mneptok> @mark ftab terrible attitude, argumentative. e.g. [ftab] question ignored, next question please
[17:06] <mneptok> @btlogin
[17:06]  * mneptok jiggles ubottu
[17:06] <mneptok> @login
[17:07] <mneptok> @mark ftab terrible attitude, argumentative. e.g. [ftab] question ignored, next question please
[17:11] <ftab> can any body please explain I am banned ?
[17:12] <mneptok> ftab: i asked you to stop abusing the bot in the channel. i explained you could use /msg. you told me to "go do my work."
[17:12] <mneptok> ftab: you then became dismissive and argumentative in /query
[17:12] <ftab> mneptok, your attitude has been rude
[17:12] <mneptok> ftab: the rules are there for everyone's benefit. and ops are volunteers, and should be given a small measure of respect.
[17:13] <ftab> respect is not taken but given
[17:13] <mneptok> i rest my case.
[17:14] <ftab> any way I have been using Ubuntu for more then an year now and so for I have been very impressed because of it's support and the help on IRCe
[17:14] <ftab> *IRC
[17:14] <ftab> isn't there any body else who can hear my argument pleas?
[17:14] <ftab> *please
[17:14] <mneptok> so then why tell the volunteers that help make the IRC channels usable to "go do their work?"
[17:15] <mneptok> i'm happy to pastebin the content of our /query conversation so that others may offer an opinion.
[17:15] <ftab> it's not necessary you agree with each and every one, if my attitude was rude so was yours
[17:16] <ftab> I asked you to send me a private message and we should talk there.
[17:17] <mneptok> and after you asked, that's exactly what i did.
[17:17] <ftab> mneptok, it was me who sent you the private msg
[17:18] <ftab> please do put the queries on pastebin but before that put the ban off pleas
[17:18] <ftab> *pleas
[17:18] <ftab> *please
[17:19] <ftab> I will challenge you being an operator, and if i was proven wrong then I will uninstall ubuntu.
[17:20] <ikonia> using ubuntu has nothing to do with this issue
[17:20] <ftab> which I don't want at any case
[17:20] <ftab> but the channel is for ubuntu
[17:20] <ikonia> so ?
[17:20] <ikonia> how does that effect if you use ubuntu or not ?
[17:20] <mneptok> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/259930/
[17:21] <mneptok> the rest of the conversation can be found via /lastlog in #u
[17:23] <mneptok> ftab: if you are going to ask about the ban, please do so in this channel. the time for /msg'ing me has passed.
[17:24] <jussi01> ftab: Im just reviewing the situation now, please wait a min.
[17:24] <ftab> I guess the operators are defending each other here
[17:24] <ikonia> or you've just done wrong and won't accept it ?
[17:25] <ftab> jussi01 thanks for that, I am glade at least some heard my voice
[17:25] <ikonia> that could be another option
[17:25] <jussi01> ikonia: please let me review it
[17:25] <ikonia> ftab: people are listening, no-one is ignoring you
[17:25] <ikonia> jussi01: please do - I'm just fed up of hearing this tosh form people about "ops just back each other up" when it's just nonsense as the discussion on how things are handled is anything other than that
[17:29] <ftab> iknoa, but the argument of the members should be at least noticed.
[17:29] <ikonia> it is
[17:29] <ikonia> I said no-one is ignoring you
[17:29] <ftab> thank you for that.
[17:30] <ftab> sorry if I didn't noticed that earlier.
[17:32] <jussi01> ftab: ok, I see you have been in #ubuntu for some time. I also see you have used to bot a few times with no apparent reason, hence mneptok asked you to stop abusing the bot. As the !botabuse factoid says, please use /msg or #ubuntu-bots for investigation of the bot. Now, that said, your attitude towards mneptok when asked was slightly rude, then getting ruder as he insisted.  Unless this attitude towards operators changes, then
[17:32] <jussi01>  we will not unban you. The operators are there to make the channel run smoothly, and you need to follow their guidance.
[17:33] <ftab> jussi01, I would love to follow that, but at least the operator's attitude should also not be rude.
[17:34] <ftab> and this is not the price I should pay for this, as I made it clear by not repeating those steps again
[17:34] <jussi01> ftab: I dont beleive [18:51:32] <mneptok> ftab: please stop abusing the bot in the channel is rude,  do you?
[17:35] <ftab> I did that by issuing 2 commands, and after he sent that message I didn't
[17:36] <jussi01> ftab: the problem here is not the bot abuse, I think we can all see that has stopped, and we thank you for that.
[17:36] <ftab> what else respect is mneptok is demanding ? he asked me not to abuse and I stopped doing that.
[17:38] <ftab> What I can say is I won't abuse the channel again, isn't that not enough for an apology ?
[17:39] <ftab> jussi01: are you there?
[17:39] <jussi01> ftab: no. the issue here is we have to be confident as ioperators that you will respect what we say. its important that when we ask things, we dont get an argument that fills the channel.
[17:40] <ftab> jussi01: if you see, I myself initiated a private chat with mneptok to avoid flooding the channel
[17:41] <mneptok> and then used that to be dismissive and question my actions.
[17:41] <jussi01> ftab: sure. I think the thing I am seeing here consistenly is that you seem to be telling mneptok how to do things.
[17:42] <ftab> jussie, I am not trying to tell any one any thing but just presenting my argument.
[17:42] <jussi01> ftab: out of curiousity is your native language english?
[17:43] <ftab> nopes.
[17:43] <jussi01> right.
[17:44] <jussi01> ftab: The way you talk has an argumentative stance about it. you need to be more respectful of operators messages, and understand that you need to comply with what they ask. is that clear?
[17:44] <ftab> jussi01: ok, I would say sorry if any of my word bothered any one
[17:44] <jussi01> The operators are not picking on you, just trying to make the channel run smoothly.
[17:45] <mneptok> ftab: and i was clear in telling you that making things run well is my goal. which then led to further arguments and questions.
[17:45] <ftab> jussie01: if you notice http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/259930/
[17:45] <jussi01> ftab: I did.
[17:46] <ftab> the 4th and the 5th line, I complained about a message and you can see his reply.
[17:46] <ftab> ok thanks Jussie01
[17:47] <jussi01> ftab: it is not your concern to make sure the ops are talking to other users. you need to make sure yyou look after your own behaviour, and if there is a channel emergency, then use the !ops trigger.
[17:47] <mneptok> ftab: and those 4th and 5th lines are the cause of the concern. it's NOT your concern how ops manage things, and to whom they speak about what issues.
[17:47] <ftab> that guys sent an argument about me.
[17:47] <ftab> so I complained
[17:48] <jussi01> ftab: If you have a concern about another user, you need to tell the ops the issue, not ask them why they didnt do anything about it.
[17:48] <jussi01> ftab: do you understand what I am trying to get at here?
[17:49] <ftab> hmm I guess that makes more sense, but he should he replied what you did, again you would say that I am asking the ops what to do.
[17:49] <ftab> but that is just an argument,
[17:49] <ftab> yes I do
[17:49] <ftab> *have
[17:50] <mneptok> ftab: understand that VERY few bans are permanent. unless you do something very stupid, i will gladly remove the ban in 24 hours. and any other op is welcome to remove it at any time.
[17:51] <ftab> mneptok not every boss in the company is likable there might be choices, I would be glad if you remove the ban right now
[17:52] <jussi01> ftab: so the thing here is that while we value your helping users in #ubuntu, it just doesnt help to have you trying to tell us how to do our jobs. Report issues, and tell us when things are a problem is helpful. but what you did there isnt.
[17:53] <ftab> jussie01 sorry I am lost here, I didn't understand that sentence fully
[17:54] <ftab> but one thing is for sure, I believe when you are helped then help others, and that's what I do at #ubuntu
[17:54] <ftab> #ubuntu solved my problems and so did I
[17:55] <jussi01> ftab: I mean Please dont tell the operators how to do their jobs, or enquire why they didnt take a certain course of action.
[17:55] <ftab> what about the complaints?
[17:55] <ftab> ok jussie01 one last question who guard the guards?
[17:56] <jussi01> ftab: We welcome that you give us information about issues, ie. user1 did this, but we do not welcome why didnt you do such and such a thing.
[17:56] <ftab> if I have any concern about an operator then where should I ask?
[17:56] <ftab> or complain ?
[17:56] <jussi01> ftab: I am a member of the IRC council, so I am partly responsible for that. Hence Why I am reviewing your complaint.
[17:57] <ftab> so if there is an complaint about an operator I should just jump to #ubuntu-ops ?
[17:58] <ftab> or !ops trigger
[17:58] <jussi01> ftab: here please
[17:58] <ftab> ok thanks jussie01: for hearing all of my arguments with patience
[17:58] <ftab> I believe in respect and justice
[17:59] <jussi01> ftab: all the members of the IRC council idle here, as well as other operators may also choose to review your complaint.
[17:59] <ftab> that's why I argued and put my point here ,
[18:00] <ftab> I feel no harm in apologizing mneptok now,  and would just ask him to be please polite.
[18:00] <ftab> not threaten .
[18:00] <ftab> :-)
[18:00] <mneptok> *sigh*
[18:01] <ftab> mneptok: *sigh*
[18:01] <ftab> :-)
[18:02] <ftab> so who is going to unbind me now?
[18:02] <ftab> sorry put the ban off
[18:02] <jussi01> ftab: Wait a moment
[18:03] <jussi01> ftab: I dont feel mneptok was impolite in what he was asking. I feel you were agumentative and that is what triggered this.
[18:04] <jussi01> ftab: I think maybe there is some misunderstanding from you, mneptok was not being impolite, just asking for compliance.
[18:05] <ftab> jussie01: I felt like that, so may be I was wrong.
[18:06] <jussi01> ftab: ok, I will unban you in 1 hour, on 3 conditions. 1. a sincere apology to mneptok 2. that you read the guidelines and 3. that you agree to be more compliant to operators in the future.
[18:07] <jussi01> !guidelines > ftab
[18:09] <ftab> ok looking at the guidelines
[18:09] <ftab> again
[18:12] <ftab> jussie01: isn't this possible that you unban me right now?
[18:14] <jussi01> ftab: its possible, but a) what is the hurry? and b) I think some time till unban is in order. its only 1 hour, so not life threatening.
[18:15] <ftab> a) hurry is that I am having some problem with sound, and I need to resolve that. b) I don't want to put in prison for long
[18:15] <ftab> :)
[18:15] <ftab> *to be
[18:16] <jussi01> ftab: ok, however, the above is my decision.  1. a sincere apology to mneptok 2. that you read the guidelines and 3. that you agree to be more compliant to operators in the future.
[18:17] <ftab> ah
[18:18] <ftab> for 1 I already did, and for 3 nor I did and neither I will do in future.
 *sigh*
 mneptok: *sigh*
 :-)
[18:18] <jussi01> ftab: I would like to see a sincere apology now (after the point of asking).
[18:19] <ftab> jussi01: isn't this a discrimination, if I did once isn't that not enough
[18:19] <ftab> :-(
[18:21] <jussi01> ftab: no. the previous apology looked somewhat half hearted, and doing it now shows compliance with operator requests. ;)
[18:22] <ftab> jussi01: how would you know that I am full hearted, it's just discrimination and that's what I hate, if you think that you are able unban me then please do, if not then leave it.
[18:22] <jussi01> ftab: it seemed before that you were saying "I'm sorry, but" hence my feeling of halfheartedness.
[18:23] <jussi01> ftab: Im not trying to discriminate, I am just looking for compliance with instructions.
[18:24] <ftab> it;s up to you my friend, I did apologized once, and it's not my habit to beg. And I agree with point 3
[18:25] <ftab> so if you are interested then unban, I won't be disappointed now, this makes it clear, discrimination is every where even open-source is not safe
[18:25] <jussi01> ftab: ok. please go away for the rest of the alotted hour, and feel free to msg mneptok sometime with a personal apology. see you back here in  ~45 mins.
[18:28] <ftab> that won't gain my interest any more. but thanks any way
[18:32] <jussi01> ftab: ok, I just ask you to part now until the alotted time is up.
[18:32] <ftab> you mean leave the room?
[18:32] <ftab> sorry the channel
[18:33] <ftab> here I go man
[18:37] <mneptok> jussi01: i stand by my "argumentative" assessment :P
[18:55] <jussi01> ftab: 10 mins ;)
[19:37] <ftab> mneptok I am sorry to be argumentive in my last conversation, remember I am not doing it for unban but for the fact that I should have not been rude despite you to be rude ( at least I felt that you were )
[19:39] <jussi01> ftab: thanks. you are now unbanned in #ubuntu. Please remeber to use /msg or #ubuntu-bots for invetigating ubottu.
[19:40] <ftab> thanks jussi01 for your patience, and your politeness
[19:41] <jussi01> ftab: ok, I now ask you to part, as per our topic.
[19:41] <ftab> you mean leave ?
[19:41] <ftab> jussi01
[19:41] <jussi01> yep
[19:42] <ftab> ok sure. bye
[19:42] <ftab> what is the command to part?
[19:42] <mneptok> not that one.
[19:43] <bazhang> bearshare/arnold seems to have been ban dodging in #ubuntu earlier ; dont see him as being banned in #ubuntu-offtopic (though maybe I am blind)
[20:19] <Flannel><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:19] <Flannel> (search for bilok)
[20:21] <bazhang> right he changed to just the 71.116 etc
[20:24] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[22:39] <blizzkid> lo all, anyone here that is on planet.ubuntu and would like to do me a big favor please?
[22:39] <Pricey> blizzkid: How many channels have you spammed with that?
[22:40] <blizzkid> Pricey: forgive me, but I believe it's important enough to do so for once
[22:41] <ikonia> yet you've not said what the problem is in any channcel
[22:41] <Pricey> ikonia: -irc
[22:41] <Pricey> ikonia: and its not a problem
[22:41] <topyli> blizzkid: this channel is definitely the place for such a request
[22:41] <Pricey> topyli: hmm?
[22:42] <topyli> well, it's not related to ubuntu channels
[22:42] <ikonia> ahhh it's a pointless blog post request
[22:42] <ikonia> thank you Pricey
[22:43] <blizzkid> ikonia: I don't believe it's pointless, I believe it's for a _very_ good cause
[22:43] <ikonia> you make it seem pointless
[22:43] <blizzkid> the FSF's campaign is giving floss a very bad name
[22:43] <ikonia> you spamming it is giving it a bad name
[22:45] <topyli> blizzkid: sorry. what i said is the opposite of what i meant. this channel is *not* appropriate for this discussion :)
[22:46] <Pici> its being discussed in -irc, no need for the same conversation twice
[22:46] <ikonia> yup
[22:46] <blizzkid> topyli: I know it's not really the best place, but there is no really good place for it I guess, since I want to reach an Ubuntu member
[22:47] <topyli> email one or something then
[22:49] <ikonia> blizzkid: I guess if you don't need anything from the #ubuntu operators, it maybe a good call to leave the channel and think about how to spread your word without looking like a spammer
[22:50] <blizzkid> ikonia: yeah, I'm out and please don't consider me a spammer because of this.
[22:50] <blizzkid> bye
[22:50] <ikonia> I do consider you a spammer
[22:50] <ikonia> I also consider it a stupid thing to do to and makes a joke of his statment
[22:52] <topyli> if you mean the "pointless" thing, then sure. i think it didn't come out right
[22:53] <ikonia> no I find his blog post pointless
[22:54] <topyli> i didn't read it, but i don't think the post itself is the issue at all
[22:54] <ikonia> no, I pretty much agree with it, however slating a advertising for slating a product, with an advertising campaign slating the original campaign is pointless to me
[22:57] <topyli> heh, true
[22:59] <topyli> i, too, prefer advertising that says "i have great stuff" over advertising that says "that other guy's stuff is worse than mine"
[22:59] <ikonia> I find it a stupid campaign when Windows 7 hasn 't even been released yet
[22:59] <ikonia> " a product may suck, we don't know yet, but we think it will, so have this slating !"
[23:00] <topyli> yeah hating microsoft is not the fsf's mission iirc. it's building stuff
[23:52] <mneptok> killing people is not the army's mission. but it's an inevitable outcome of their stated mission.


[00:11] <dominic1134> Hi guys, just want to inform you about a new open source email communication gateway project for ubuntu.  check it out www.openas.org  /  feel free to join us in #openas
[01:06] <ProfessorKaos64> what do I need to do so I can ping / ssh by hostname on my ubuntu server instead of IP?
[01:11] <maswan> setup DNS
[01:15] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: implement "hostname resolution" - (① local file like /etc/hosts or ② a local OR internet-based mechanism like DNS)
[01:16] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: things to know: will you want others to do the same (or just yourself) and whether your server is internet-based or not
[01:16] <ProfessorKaos64> just local LAN
[01:16] <newbieubuntu> sup
[01:16] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: simplest is a local file then
[01:17] <pmatulis> (/etc/hosts)
[01:17] <newbieubuntu> anyone can help me with dovecot/postfix/thunderbird for lan-only email system ? I'm been looking and following guides for 2 weeks all over the net with no solutions because they all need MX and FQNS.
[01:17] <ProfessorKaos64> I know of /etc/hosts, but this typically isn't an issue for my other computers, this is what I have in /etc/hosts
[01:17] <ProfessorKaos64> <IP_ADDRESS>	test-smb.<IP_ADDRESS>	test-smb
[01:17] <fingertips> Does the 10.04.4 LTS server come with a private cloud solution?
[01:18] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: state the problem you're having in simple terms
[01:19] <ProfessorKaos64> my archbox machine can only ping my newly created ubuntu server box by IP
[01:19] <ProfessorKaos64> Normally I can see all client PCs on other distros, so I figured I just needed to add something
[01:19] <fingertips> I ask here because I see it is not where ubuntu pr is pointing.
[01:19] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: what is the IP address and what name do you want it known by?
[01:21] <ProfessorKaos64> <IP_ADDRESS> test-smb
[01:23] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: normally you want a FQDN for the name as well as just the hostname
[01:23] <ProfessorKaos64> I mean, yea I could set this on ddwrt, but I normally don't have to
[01:23] <pmatulis> <IP_ADDRESS> test-smb.example.com test-smb
[01:24] <ProfessorKaos64> That would go in the hosts file of my Arch machine or the ubuntun server?
[01:24] <pmatulis> the one doing the pinging
[01:24] <pmatulis> (ping sender)
[01:24] <ProfessorKaos64> ok
[01:25] <pmatulis> what IP address does the sender have?
[01:25] <ProfessorKaos64> <IP_ADDRESS>
[01:25] <pmatulis> ok
[01:26] <ProfessorKaos64> works now thanks, so why normally is this not needed? is it because the ubuntu server doesn't typically report the hostname in the same way regular ol' ubuntu 14.04 LTS would?
[01:27] <pmatulis> ProfessorKaos64: i don't follow.  is what not needed?  the above is needed to resolve the hostname to an address
[01:27] <pmatulis> unless you use another method such as DNS
[01:28] <ProfessorKaos64> normally, I can just ping any other PC on my network, I only had to add the ubuntu server. Perhaps the hostname is just not advertised the same. I can check my ddwrt setup
[01:28] <fingertips> It looks like the desktop is not accessing the /etc/hosts file.
[01:28] <pmatulis> to ping by name you MUST have some kind of name resolution set up
[01:29] <fingertips> It is attempting to resolv a name that is in the file, why is this?
[01:30] <pmatulis> fingertips: huh?
[01:30] <pmatulis> fingertips: what problem are you having?
[01:30] <fingertips> I have just stated the problem.
[01:31] <pmatulis> fingertips: what is attempting to resolve a name that is in what file?
[01:32] <fingertips> firefox and nslookup for example
[01:32] <fingertips> They are attempting to resolve a name that is in /etc/hosts
[01:33] <pmatulis> fingertips: so?
[01:33] <pmatulis> fingertips: are you using DNS?
[01:33] <fingertips> Does the software not look for it in /etc/hosts before contacting a dns server?
[01:37] <pmatulis> fingertips: it depends how the host is configured (nsswitch.conf)
[01:39] <pmatulis> fingertips: but some tools, and i believe nslookup is one of them, are strictly DNS thingies.  the host tool is one of them
[01:43] <JanC> nslookup, host & dig only use DNS, IIRC
[01:43] <fingertips> I take it firefox is using an internal resolver then?
[01:44] <JanC> it uses the system (C-library) resolver
[01:44] <JanC> there is some diagnostic tool that uses that too, but I forgot its name  :)
[01:45] <newbieubuntu> anyone can help me with lan-network(intranet) mail postfix-dovevot ?
[01:45] <pmatulis> !ask | newbieubuntu
[01:50] <JanC> fingertips: are you familiar with any scripting language like Python or Perl?  most such languages have functions that call the "system resolver" function
[01:50] <JanC> PHP probably has it too
[01:53] <fingertips> familiar with shenanigans
[01:57] <LinStatSDR> ^
[02:03] <fingertips> Something funny is going on with firefox.
[02:03] <JanC> fingertips: see 'man getent'
[02:04] <JanC> more specifically the "*hosts*" related databases
[02:05] <fingertips> looking
[02:05] <JanC> that should show how most applications resolve domain names
[02:05]  * JanC off to bed now
[02:09] <fingertips>  HexChat: 2.9.6 ** OS: Linux 3.5.0-17-generic i686 ** Distro: Debian wheezy/sid ** CPU: 2 x AMD Phenom(tm) II P650 Dual-Core Processor (AuthenticAMD) @ 800MHz ** RAM: Physical: 7.7GB, 91.3% free ** Disk: Total: 5.3GB, 56.7% free ** VGA: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI RS880M [Mobility Radeon HD 4200 Series] ** Sound: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI SB1: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI ** Ethernet: Realtek Semiconductor Co.,
[02:09] <fingertips>  Ltd. RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller ** Uptime: 17h 38m 16s **
[02:12] <newbieubuntu> anyone can help me with lan-network(intranet) mail postfix-dovevot ? i've followed this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKwIWRL97Q   but i cant login from the windows client to the squirrelmail login page
[02:13] <newbieubuntu> its like this, I want to set up a mail system so that 5 of the windows clients in my home can email one another, but through lan and not internet.
[02:16] <fingertips> newbieubuntu, just use postfix
[02:17] <newbieubuntu> fingertips, is there any guide i can follow ?
[02:18] <fingertips> the man pages
[02:19] <pmatulis> newbieubuntu: just google 'postfix dovecot ubuntu'
[02:20] <fingertips> you don't need dovecot or squirrelmail
[02:20] <fingertips> you can just use postefix and the ip address or setup a wins name
[02:26] <cryptodan> dovecot would be incoming IMAP or POP3 unless they want to use another POP3 server
[02:31] <fingertips> newbieubuntu, that is not for internal home email systems
[02:35] <newbieubuntu> what, guys
[02:35] <newbieubuntu> so postfix is sufficient
[02:36] <newbieubuntu> do i set up all the login mail accts from ubuntu itself ?
[02:37] <newbieubuntu> googling "postfix dovecot ubuntu" shows up all the setting require QNDS, Domains, MX records
[02:37] <cryptodan> newbieubuntu: what is it that you are wanting to do
[02:39] <newbieubuntu> cryptodan, i want to set up a ubuntu mail server from scratch, make a mail system that allows the windows clients on my lan network to mail each other using thunderbird
[02:39] <cryptodan> then you will need dovecot and postfix and that is it
[02:39] <cryptodan> if you install Ubuntu Server 14.04LTS you can accomplish this
[02:40] <newbieubuntu> i had it install
[02:40] <cryptodan> did you do a sudo tasksel?
[02:40] <cryptodan> and select mail server
[02:40] <newbieubuntu> it will not be using internet connection, because i dont have a FQDN
[02:40] <cryptodan> that can be anything like yourlan.lan
[02:41] <cryptodan> setup a local DNS Server for that youlan.lan
[02:42] <pmatulis> you don't need DNS
[02:42] <newbieubuntu> ... ...
[02:42] <newbieubuntu> i have make this mail.mail.local
[02:43] <newbieubuntu> following https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKwIWRL97Q
[02:44] <newbieubuntu> confusing d....
[02:44] <pmatulis> DNS for mail provides a MX record.  this tells a sender (usually an MTA) what next MTA to send mail to.  here, tbird will send directly to the ubuntu postfix server which will be the final destination so it won't need to do a MX lookup to send somewhere else
[02:45] <pentagon_> newbieubuntu, all you need is postfix and use the ip addresses as mail addresses
[02:45] <newbieubuntu> is there any simple guide i can follow. those i gets from google, i simply cut &paste the command changing the IP but its so confusing
[02:45] <pmatulis> whaaaat?
[02:45] <cryptodan> pentagon_: he wants incoming as well
[02:46] <cryptodan> read what he wants
[02:47] <pmatulis> windows (tbird) --> SEND --> ubuntu (postfix/MTA)
[02:47] <pmatulis> windows (tbird) <-- RETRIEVE <-- ubuntu (dovecot/IMAP)
[02:48] <pmatulis> in tbird you can choose your MTA (SMTP server).  so that's where the SENDER points to
[02:48] <pmatulis> and same for retrieving.  you choose your IMAP server
[02:48] <bugs_bugger> hi. im trying to set up 2 apache vhosts on one machine (one ip, 2 dns). but im not getting apache2 to use different root paths for the two domains. i followed the instructions here https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/en/mod/core.html#virtualhost and had a look at the examples here https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/vhosts/examples.html ... to no avail. what might i be doing wrong
[02:52] <newbieubuntu> cryptodan, pmatulis, pentagon_ @ hmmm
[02:53] <pentagon_> newbieubuntu, keep it simple
[02:53] <newbieubuntu> or should i learn how to set up a dns server first
[02:53] <pmatulis> newbieubuntu: why?
[02:55] <newbieubuntu> it doesn't help if im just following onlien guides blindly
[02:55] <newbieubuntu> can you guys tell me, what basic concept i should grasp first ?
[02:55] <pentagon_> newbieubuntu, keep it simple
[02:55] <pmatulis> newbieubuntu: i just told you the basics.  go from there
[02:56] <pentagon_> gandi.net uses vhosts
[02:58] <bugs_bugger> pentagon_: sorry, was that referred to me?
[03:23] <pentagon_> It looks like this system has avahi. Does avahi act as a client and caching server?
[03:27] <pentagon_> I resolve to call her up.
[05:57] <pentagon_> avahi
[05:57] <pentagon_> Does dnsmasg rely on avahi?
[05:58] <pentagon_> dnsmasq
[06:22] <pentagon_> Ubuntu is not designed to work well with a firewall.
[06:22] <pentagon_> Wasn't there a kid looking to add firewall rules earlier?
[06:22] <pentagon_> Where are the logs.
[06:23] <pentagon_> There is some loopy fiasco going on with the DNS setup.\
[06:25] <pentagon_> Wrong channel it was in #ubuntu.
[06:32] <lotuspsychje> you guys have a package to manage upstart system services in /etc/init easily? or you still use the service.override trick?
[06:44] <The_Tick> pentagon_: "not designed to work well with a firewall"?
[07:00] <pentagon_> The_Tick, It never was.
[07:01] <The_Tick> I'm not really sure exactly what that's supposed to mean though, I mean it's just linux
[07:02] <The_Tick> is there some modification to the stack that's horribly different than the standards?
[07:02] <pentagon_> horribly?
[07:08] <qman__> the logs are wherever you decided to log to
[07:08] <qman__> by default there are none
[07:08] <qman__> just as by default there are no rules
[07:10] <The_Tick> it's still iptables right?
[07:10] <qman__> yes
[07:10] <qman__> and optionally ufw
[07:10] <The_Tick> ya that's not bad
[07:10] <qman__> logging traffic by default is a surefire way to fill up disks unexpectedly
[07:11] <The_Tick> is there some gui to help configure the rules and optionally log the specific rules?
[07:11] <The_Tick> agreed, that'd be dumb
[07:14] <lordievader> Good morning.
[07:14] <qman__> I don't know if there are any GUI frontends for ufw. There are numerous ones for iptables and I can't recommend any of them.
[07:15] <lordievader> Gufw ;)
[07:15] <lordievader> Though it keeps its own tables...
[07:16] <The_Tick> qman__: ya just thinking for people with a lot of rules sometimes it's nice
[07:17] <The_Tick> but I don't understand the claim about it not being designed to work well with a firewall
[07:19] <qman__> a well written shell script is vastly superior to any GUI tool for iptables
[07:20] <qman__> ufw works a little different and it may work better there
[07:20] <The_Tick> eh a gui is nice for seeing it all
[07:21] <The_Tick> shell script could do that but it'd be fairly complicated, and iptables -L isn't utterly great sometimes
[07:22] <The_Tick> regardless my point wasn't about that, whatever you do to admin it is fine
[07:23] <lordievader> Each admin has their own tools they prefer, eh ;)
[09:02] <faylite> java
[09:03] <faylite> Wrong window ^^
[09:04] <lordievader> faylite: No swearing :P
[15:58] <Prezident> welcome dhill5156
[15:58] <dhill5156> Hi all, my 12.04 server edition of Ubuntu doesn't detect my RAID5 array on my HP Gen9. What driver do i choose/need to use to resolve this???
[16:01] <dhill5156> or is there a way of upgrading the 12.04 kernel to detect this array?
[16:03] <dhill5156> the only array controller drivers on HP's site are under the windows sections
[16:03] <dhill5156> and i put it onto a usb
[16:03] <dhill5156> but 12.04 doesn't like it
[16:07] <ReScO> hey people
[16:08] <ReScO> i'm running three domains on my server, what is my FQDN?
[17:03] <killall> Hello i have a problem
[17:05] <killall> I establish a ssh tunnel to a remote machine B with -L 1234:C:5678 and i dont receive the response since the third machines C send the request to a port that is not forward, how can i fix it?
[17:48] <pmatulis> ReScO: well, what are the hostnames and what are the domain names?
[17:49] <ReScO> i've figured it out
[17:49] <ReScO> i've called my machine deltapi
[17:49] <ReScO> and i've set my PTR to pushforward.nl
[17:49] <ReScO> so my fqdn is deltapi.pushforward.nl
[17:50] <ReScO> right?
[17:50] <pmatulis> ReScO: as long as your /etc/hosts file agrees with that then yeah.  test with 'hostname -f'
[19:29] <adam_g> hallyn, any chance you know if sgabios known to work okay on trusty ?  trying to set <bios useserial='yes'/> for a domain, and see it passing the expected '-device sga' to qemu, but not getting anything from early boot on the serial
[19:59] <hallyn> adam_g: haven't looked into it.  the pkg hasn't changed in ubuntu or debian since dec 2013
[20:00] <adam_g> hallyn, actually i just found the issue, apparmor is denying libvirt's open of /usr/share/misc/sgabios.bin
[20:00] <ReScO> i'm completely stuck trying to set up postfix+dovecot+mysql
[20:00] <ReScO> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9060045/ postfix conf
[20:00] <hallyn> adam_g: oh, feh.  pls file a bug and i can push that at least to vivid today
[20:00] <adam_g> hallyn, will do
[20:01] <hallyn> thanks
[20:01] <jjohansen> ReScO: could you try linux-image-3.16.0-22-generic_3.16.0-22.29+jj_amd64.deb it has a bug fix for an issue that seems to be triggering with postfix
[20:02] <ReScO> jjohansen: why would i need to install a package when i'm having configuration issues
[20:03] <jjohansen> ReScO: oh, I missed that. I saw apparmor rejection and postfix when doing a quick scan
[20:03] <jjohansen> I know the bug can trigger apparmor rejections with post fix
[20:03] <sarnold> ReScO: do you have any DENIED lines in dmesg or audit log?
[20:04] <sarnold> ReScO: it might yet be related :)
[20:05] <ReScO> sarnold: i'm trying to set up postfix
[20:05] <ReScO> but i'm having trouble
[20:05] <ReScO> i have three domains
[20:05] <ReScO> one has a SSL cert
[20:05] <ReScO> the others don't
[20:05] <ReScO> but, the domain with ssl is not the main email address domain
[20:06] <ReScO> (api1.nl is the SSL domain, pushforward.nl is the important domain to catch email for)
[20:06] <ReScO> i'm also stuck at how to set up such a server, the MySQL part is working and verified as working
[20:07] <bantone> any way I can automatically update the repo lists in /var/lib/apt/lists/ instead of having to manually do 'sudo apt-get upgrade'?
[20:07] <bantone> i am getting a lot of alerts on servers im managing about stale apt-cache
[20:07] <bantone> of course apt-get update resolves it
[20:07] <bantone> sorry not apt-get upgrade
[20:09] <sarnold> bantone: if you're getting tired of manually managing your apt-get upgrades .. you could use the unattended-upgrades package, or you could use landscape.canonical.com
[20:10] <sarnold> ReScO: sorry, I'm not postfix expert, I just know that some newer versions of apparmor had unexpected influence on postfix. but if you don't have any DENIED messages from apparmor, it's unrelated, and that's the limit of my knowledge :(
[20:10] <jjohansen> ditto
[20:13] <bantone> sarnold: awesome
[20:25] <adam_g> hallyn, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libvirt/+bug/1393548, there y'ar.
[20:34] <hallyn> adam_g: thank you sir
[21:03] <shredding> Do i have to do something to start /etc/cron.hourly?
[21:03] <shredding> it looks like my job does not run (though im not totally sure)
[21:05] <qman__> The scripts in it must be exectable to runai you can check /var/log/syslog to see if it's running
[21:05] <sarnold> shredding: any errors in logs?
[21:07] <qman__> A non intuitive limitation, it won't run any scripts named with .sh on the end
[21:08] <shredding> i have something like this
[21:08] <sarnold> o_O
[21:08] <shredding> http://pastebin.com/DgUyt6pk
[21:08] <sarnold> interesting
[21:08] <qman__> /etc/cron.hourly/myscript works, /etc/cron.hourly/myscript.sh does not
[21:08] <shredding> my script ist just named „fetch_followers“
[21:08] <shredding> $ run-parts --test /etc/cron.hourly
[21:09] <shredding> return „/etc/cron.hourly/fetch_followers"
[21:09] <sarnold> can you read that email sent to root? I bet it contains the stderr of your job..
[21:09] <shredding> how would i do that?
[21:10] <shredding> I’m root
[21:10] <shredding> i guess the main problem is that i’m root and not someone with knowledge ^^
[21:11] <sarnold> lol
[21:11] <sarnold> mutt or pine or mail or less /var/spool/mail/root or something similar
[21:11] <shredding> found it.
[21:11] <shredding> http://pastebin.com/8UD3bAmn
[21:12] <shredding> not sure what it means, though
[21:12] <shredding> oh
[21:12] <shredding> first line of my script is #/bin/bash
[21:12] <shredding> is that a problem?
[21:12] <shredding> #!/bin/bash would look better
[21:13] <JanC> obviously :)
[21:14] <qman__> Make sure you set PATH in your script if needed, cron runs with a minimal one
[21:14] <JanC> I'm pretty sure the "hash" instead of "hash-bag" was te problem
[21:15] <JanC> "hash-bang"
[21:15] <shredding> cool
[21:17] <shredding> thank you all!
[21:22] <tkeith_> If I can SSH into a machine on an internal network, what's the easiest way to set up a VPN such that I have NAT access to that network through the machine via SSH?
[21:23] <sarnold> tkeith_: I've seen an ssh+ppp "vpn" thing before, dunno if it's really the easiest way to get there though
[21:23] <tkeith_> sarnold: I mean, I can get "almost" there with SOCKS tunneling, it seems like there must be a tool to make it easy to just get full NAT! But I could be totally wrong...
[21:25] <jhobbs> sshuttle?
[21:25] <jhobbs> tcp only though
[21:26] <tkeith_> jhobbs: That should do the job... thanks!
[21:44] <tafa2> anyone something as easy to use as newrelic servers but that is self managed? (but not cacti, naggios, zabbix, zenoss)
[21:48] <JanC> tafa2: what's "newrelic"?
[21:48] <tafa2> http://newrelic.com/server-monitoring
[21:50] <JanC> so what's wrong with the 4 you named compared to them?
[21:50] <JanC> what features do you need they don't offer?
[21:50] <tafa2> ive tried all 4
[21:51] <tafa2> and all are good and stable
[21:51] <tafa2> but so heavy
[21:51] <tafa2> resource intensive
[21:52] <JanC> that probably depends on configuration also, dunno
[21:52] <tafa2> probably