[16:28] <pavlushka> Hello Kilos :)
[16:28] <pavlushka> Kilos: you ok?
[16:28] <pavlushka> Kilos: you were missing for 2 days from IRC according to Maaz
[16:36] <Kilos> hi pavlushka yeah kinda
[16:37] <Kilos> im like a bear i sleep in winter
[16:42] <pavlushka> what bear, grizzly or polar bear, (including albino polar bear :P)
[16:42] <pavlushka> ?
[17:27] <Kilos> lol
[17:27] <Kilos> you choose
[17:28] <Kilos> polar bears are all albinos
[17:28] <Kilos> albino grizzly
[17:29] <Kilos> then they got kicked out from ice free lands
[18:11] <pavlushka> Kilos: but for instance, take grizzlies, they could be albino polar bears :p
[18:12] <pavlushka> the albino of white supposed to make it black, huh?
[18:13] <Kilos> no albino means white offspring from other colour parents
[18:27] <pavlushka> Kilos: I know, lol
[18:27] <Kilos> lol
[18:28] <pavlushka> Kilos: and I know Gregor Johann Mendel too :p
[19:02] <Kilos> cool
[19:02] <Kilos> night lad
[19:02] <Kilos> sleep well


[12:01] <siretart> :)
[12:01] <siretart> hey, what's this: Failed to fetch http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz  MD5Sum mismatch
[12:01] <siretart> Failed to fetch http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/universe/binary-amd64/Packages.gz  MD5Sum mismatch
[12:01] <tseng> broken mirror?
[12:02] <ivoks> run again
[12:02] <ivoks> maybe it's syncing
[12:02] <tseng> ivoks: eh
[12:02] <tseng> ivoks: wouldnt it update Packages.gz last?
[12:02] <siretart> hm. perhaps..
[12:02] <tseng> to avoid that
[12:02] <tseng> or at least, that would make sense
[12:03] <tseng> oh nevermind
[12:03] <tseng> that was packages.gz :P
[12:03] <siretart> tseng: that depends on the mirroring software. debmirror does this. rsync not
[12:03] <siretart> read: plain rsync not
[12:03] <tseng> yes
[12:05] <ivoks> doh..
[12:05] <ivoks> ivoks.blog.hr isn't working :(
[12:06] <tseng> whiprush on puc!!!!!!!ONE
[12:07] <tseng> siretart: https://bob.kdz13.net/test.txt is the backend code to that page
[12:07] <tseng> siretart: the rest you can see in view source, its < 100 lines i think
[12:07] <ivoks> lol tseng:
[12:07] <ivoks> Developers: Microsoft to Release AJAX Framework
[12:08] <tseng> thats such bollocks, i dont need a "framework"
[12:08] <tseng> look at how simple this code is
[12:08] <tseng> i guess its for all their wussie VB hackers
[12:08] <siretart> tseng: also available for pyhton? ;)
[12:08] <ogra> victoria bitter ?
[12:09] <tseng> ogra: :)
[12:09] <siretart> hrhr
[12:09] <ogra> ;)
[12:09] <tseng> siretart: it doesnt matter
[12:09] <tseng> siretart: i did it in php
[12:09] <tseng> siretart: look at the code
[12:09] <tseng> the javascript just does a GET on your backend page
[12:09] <tseng> and returns the results
[12:09] <tseng> it can be any page really
[12:09] <ivoks> time to leave you guys...
[12:09] <ivoks> till tomorrow
[12:09] <tseng> bye ivoks
[12:10] <siretart> gn8 folks!
[12:10] <tseng> siretart: i cant think of anything cool to do with REVU and ajax.
[12:10] <tseng> or, at least cool *and* useful
[12:10] <tseng> in my app at work i sort things by column if you click on the header
[12:10] <tseng> but we have not much stuff
[12:11] <siretart> I'll think about it. gn8
[12:11] <sistpoty> I'm going to bed as well... bye together
[12:11] <tseng> bye
[12:11] <tseng> siretart: hey one second
[12:11] <siretart> ja?
[12:11] <tseng> why do you say "together"
[12:11] <tseng> er, sistpoty
[12:11] <tseng> siretart: sleep :)
[12:11] <Burgundavia> I had a thought regarding revu
[12:11] <siretart> ah. ok - on my way:)
[12:11] <tseng> Burgundavia: tell me
[12:12] <sistpoty> weird... maybe i'm too tired too write good english
[12:12] <Burgundavia> is it useful to have seperate tables for things that received no reviews and things we have received only positive reviews?
[12:12] <tseng> no?
[12:12] <sistpoty> that was really sick "german english"
[12:12] <Burgundavia> ie, something that has just been uploaded and not been looked by anyone
[12:12] <tseng> they could be sorted that way
[12:12] <tseng> or colored
[12:12] <Burgundavia> is it useful?
[12:12] <tseng> they are already colored
[12:13] <tseng> its useful to quickly see
[12:13] <tseng> i dont see why it makes a difference if you split the table
[12:13] <Burgundavia> because I was thinking about the UI
[12:13] <Burgundavia> current my design was 4 tables
[12:13] <Burgundavia> 1 for unreview/only positive reviews and 1 for downchecks, with one of each for both new and updated packages
[12:14] <Burgundavia> the order would be:
[12:14] <Burgundavia> new packages: Un
[12:14] <Burgundavia> and Prob
[12:14] <Burgundavia> and then Changed
[12:14] <Burgundavia> un and prob
[12:14] <tseng> prob?
[12:14] <Burgundavia> problems
[12:15] <ajmitch> morning all
[12:15] <tseng> hi ajmitch
[12:15] <tseng> Burgundavia: hang on
[12:15] <tseng> what if it was views
[12:15] <tseng> not all on the page at once, but possible
[12:15] <tseng> the main page has just the first table that we see now
[12:15] <tseng> but with links across the top to adjust the query
[12:15] <tseng> in the ways you just specified
[12:15] <tseng> it would redraw the table acordingly
[12:16] <Burgundavia> the "current" current uploaders would be divided into 4 tables
[12:16] <tseng> no, it wouldnt
[12:16] <tseng> think about it this way
[12:16] <tseng> its one table
[12:16] <tseng> in the database
[12:16] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:16] <tseng> right now we view the entire thing as is
[12:16] <tseng> which is "correct"
[12:16] <tseng> you want custom views on it
[12:17] <Burgundavia> true
[12:17] <tseng> which we can do in real time
[12:17] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:17] <tseng> would that suit?
[12:17] <tseng> id love to start hacking on that
[12:17] <Burgundavia> let me draw you a mockup of what I imagined
[12:17] <tseng> ok
[12:17] <tseng> but i think it makes the page too heavy
[12:17] <tseng> ill draw mine too
[12:17] <tseng> and we can compromise
[12:17] <tseng> :D
[12:17] <ajmitch> so what do the different colours in revu mean now?
[12:18] <tseng> ajmitch: its based on review/no reviw it looks like
[12:18] <ogra> ajmitch, its written above
[12:18] <ajmitch> ah, NEW vs changes
[12:18] <ajmitch> ogra: that's assuming I read it :)
[12:18] <ogra> :)
[12:19] <ajmitch> herve was asking about a list of packages to merge?
[12:19] <ajmitch> I've got a list that I can generate daily here if you want
[12:20] <Burgundavia> http://img129.echo.cx/my.php?image=revumockup4yx.png
[12:21] <tseng> ok
[12:21] <tseng> do you have an issue with new/updated being reflected by color or sort order in the same table?
[12:21] <Burgundavia> not really
[12:22] <Burgundavia> I was actually designing icons for new and updated
[12:22] <Burgundavia> up arrow for new
[12:22] <tseng> here's what I am thinking
[12:22] <Burgundavia> and circle for updated
[12:22] <tseng>    New
[12:22] <tseng>    Needs Work
[12:22] <tseng>    Ready for Upload
[12:22] <tseng> 3 views
[12:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:22] <tseng> all on the main page
[12:22] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:22] <tseng> live updating with ajax
[12:22] <Burgundavia> that works
[12:22] <tseng> not on the screen at once
[12:23] <tseng> the main page has everything listed
[12:23] <tseng> and color coded
[12:23] <tseng> (i think)
[12:23] <tseng> who here has the database setup and is still awake?
[12:23] <tseng> and wants to hack with me
[12:24] <Burgundavia> and table should have the alternating colours
[12:24] <Burgundavia> that makes it easy to read
[12:24] <tseng> yes
[12:24] <tseng> definately
[12:24] <Burgundavia> all the way across, not like the current setup
[12:24] <tseng> Burgundavia: it should be sortable
[12:24] <tseng> by clicking column headers
[12:24] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:24] <Burgundavia> would that be 3 tables?
[12:24] <Burgundavia> each sortable?
[12:24] <Burgundavia> or one big?
[12:24] <tseng> well
[12:24] <tseng> do you understand what im saying?
[12:25] <tseng> there is on table on the page at a time
[12:25] <Burgundavia> one table?
[12:25] <tseng> as you click links the table is replaced
[12:25] <tseng> by the view you want
[12:25] <tseng> it might be easier if you think of it as 4 html pages
[12:25] <Burgundavia> so clicking on New hides Needs Work and Read?
[12:25] <tseng> yes
[12:25] <Burgundavia> gotcha
[12:25] <tseng> it totally replaces the div with new content
[12:26] <tseng> i wish this was php/mysql :(
[12:26] <tseng> or id already be done
[12:26] <Burgundavia> doing to do that with tabs?
[12:26] <tseng> yeah, its like tabs in a gtk app
[12:26] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:26] <tseng> sortof
[12:26] <Burgundavia> another thing
[12:26] <tseng> it will be regular hyperlinks
[12:26] <tseng> with javascript actions
[12:27] <Burgundavia> would be nice if instead of email addys, you saw the this
[12:27] <tseng> the this?
[12:27] <Burgundavia> Brandon Hale (tseng)
[12:27] <tseng> yep, sure
[12:27] <Burgundavia><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:27] <Burgundavia> maybe leave off the email
[12:27] <Burgundavia> but make the name a mailto link?
[12:28] <tseng> the table needs a bit of padding too
[12:28] <Burgundavia> no
[12:28] <tseng> inside the td's
[12:28] <Burgundavia> scratch that
[12:28] <tseng> its bugging me
[12:28] <tseng> and wth is actions
[12:28] <Burgundavia> that should go away
[12:28] <Burgundavia> and make comments and advocates clearer
[12:28] <tseng> well
[12:29] <tseng> advocates is dumb
[12:29] <tseng> there is + and -
[12:29] <Burgundavia> I had another thought regarding how packages move through the system
[12:29] <tseng> right now i dont see a way to tell if there was a problem
[12:29] <Burgundavia> if a package ends up in needs work, and new upload should move it back into new
[12:29] <Burgundavia> you like?
[12:29] <tseng> SQL doesnt understand textual comments as positive or negative based on natural language :)
[12:29] <tseng> Burgundavia: no
[12:29] <tseng> hrm
[12:29] <tseng> sure
[12:30] <tseng> how will that work, programmatically
[12:30] <tseng> if there is an upload since the last comment?
[12:30] <Burgundavia> date stamps
[12:30] <tseng> sure
[12:30] <Burgundavia> if upload date stamp is newer than advocate downcheck datestamp
[12:30] <tseng> thats my other question
[12:30] <tseng> where is the downcheck
[12:30] <tseng> oh
[12:31] <tseng> advocating -> no
[12:31] <tseng> ?
[12:31] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:31] <Burgundavia> No and Yes should turn into an icon as well
[12:31] <tseng> can it be neutral?
[12:31] <tseng> just adding to the discussion?
[12:31] <Burgundavia> that is a comment
[12:31] <tseng> i see
[12:31] <tseng> ok
[12:31] <Burgundavia> No turns in X and Yes into a check
[12:32] <Burgundavia> I also have an idea for the package page
[12:32] <Burgundavia> across the top
[12:32] <Burgundavia> Icon for if new/updated
[12:32] <Burgundavia> package name, version # and uploader
[12:32] <Burgundavia> and the the upper right, the current status
[12:32] <tseng> um
[12:33] <tseng> what if we make a comment when there is an upload
[12:33] <Burgundavia> what do you mean?
[12:33] <tseng> i upload a package
[12:33] <tseng> it makes a comment on my page automatically
[12:33] <tseng> new package uploaded $datastamp
[12:34] <tseng> with the changelog even
[12:34] <tseng> you can even add an icon if you are really into that
[12:34] <Burgundavia> why clutter comments?
[12:34] <tseng> why add icons?
[12:34] <tseng> :)
[12:34] <Burgundavia> comments should be about the package, not that there is a new version
[12:35] <tseng> i dont consider it clutter to notify of a new package as part of the thread
[12:35] <Burgundavia> maybe a history section?
[12:35] <Burgundavia> showing new uploads
[12:35] <tseng> we can just look at the changelog for that
[12:35] <tseng> no one should be making uploads w/o updating it
[12:35] <Burgundavia> not a new upload
[12:35] <Burgundavia> but a new upload to REVU
[12:36] <tseng> eh?
[12:36] <tseng> im thinking about breezy changes
[12:36] <tseng> every time i upload something, it posts the relevant bits from changelog
[12:36] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:36] <tseng> its very useful
[12:36] <tseng> (imo)
[12:36] <Burgundavia> I am talking about the packages fixes that happen on REVU before it even hits the archives
[12:37] <tseng> whats the difference
[12:37] <Burgundavia> each of those "uploads" are the same version, no?
[12:37] <tseng> im thinking of this as like a bug tracker
[12:37] <tseng> for a private archive
[12:37] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:37] <tseng> we are probably approaching this from different backgrounds :)
[12:37] <Burgundavia> but the package version number is not going to change for say http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/details.py?upid=24
[12:38] <Burgundavia> when the uploader pushes the fixes, as it is has not yet hit the archive
[12:38] <tseng> hm i guess you got me
[12:38] <tseng> he doesnt update the revision in revu
[12:38] <tseng> its all 0ubuntu1
[12:38] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:38] <Burgundavia> so REVU needs to track that
[12:38] <Burgundavia> apt doesn't care
[12:38] <tseng> bwar
[12:39] <Burgundavia> all we need is to know that the uploader has pushed a new version into REVU for reviewing
[12:39] <Burgundavia> and the date stamp will give us that
[12:39] <tseng> we should not be printing:
[12:39] <tseng> tesseracttrainer_0.1.4-1_i386.changes1k
[12:39] <tseng> thats ass
[12:39] <tseng> it should just say changelog
[12:39] <tseng> and
[12:40] <tseng> hm
[12:40] <tseng> on packages that stuff is at the bottom, not the top
[12:40] <tseng> i guess it is the first class object in our case
[12:40] <tseng> im not sure we need the filesize on most of it either
[12:40] <tseng> at least not so prominately
[12:40] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:40] <tseng> i wish i had dreamweaver or something
[12:41] <tseng> i could mock up faster than vim
[12:41] <tseng> (is anyone logging this?)
[12:41] <tseng> i talk very fast
[12:41] <ajmitch> why shouldn't the person who uploads to REVU change the version?
[12:41] <ajmitch> sure
[12:41] <ajmitch> irssi is loggin it all
[12:41] <tseng> ajmitch: because when we upload to breezy
[12:41] <Burgundavia> I log as well
[12:41] <tseng> ajmitch: it shouldnt be 0ubuntu4
[12:41] <ajmitch> why not?
[12:41] <tseng> there was no 1-2-3 in the archive
[12:41] <ajmitch> so?
[12:41] <tseng> it just.. we dont do that :)
[12:42] <tseng> we could start, I dont mind
[12:42] <tseng> i would love to have revisions and changelogs in between for revu
[12:42] <tseng> and
[12:42] <ajmitch> it doesn't look clean, but there's nothing stopping it from happening :)
[12:42] <tseng> that enforces good habits for the real tree
[12:42] <Burgundavia> it would also mean that new changelog thing would not have to be developed for revu
[12:42] <tseng> well
[12:42] <ajmitch> when I was getting packages reviewed for debian I was asked to make changes & make the version -2 instead of -1
[12:43] <tseng> it would be nice to diff changelogs
[12:43] <tseng> and show the most recent upload
[12:43] <tseng> i still like showing uploads in comments
[12:43] <ajmitch> so 0.6.4-2 would get uploaded to debian without 0.6.4-1 being in the archive
[12:43] <tseng> i see it like a thread on bugzilla
[12:43] <Burgundavia> what about having an ajax thing for the changelog
[12:43] <tseng> "package foo uploaded fixes the bug, here is changelog"
[12:43] <tseng> Burgundavia: how do you mean?
[12:44] <Burgundavia> show the changelog in the page, but not open, that opens when clicked on
[12:44] <tseng> that could be just plain JS
[12:44] <tseng> put the changelog in an invisible div
[12:44] <tseng> and toggle visibility
[12:44] <tseng> sure
[12:44] <tseng> but um
[12:44] <tseng> you can just click it atm like all the other related files
[12:44] <tseng> not sure its a big add
[12:44] <Burgundavia> true
[12:45] <Burgundavia> ok, on the package page itself
[12:45] <tseng> yep im there
[12:45] <Burgundavia> we should seperate the linda/lintian stuff, the orig and the diff/dsc stuff into three distinct sections
[12:45] <tseng> yes
[12:45] <tseng> rows in a table
[12:46] <tseng> with a tiny row underneath each one with filesize in a small font
[12:46] <tseng> if we really need it
[12:46] <Burgundavia> and date stamp them all
[12:46] <tseng> gah i need dreamweaver so bad
[12:46] <Burgundavia> tried nvu?
[12:46] <tseng> no
[12:46] <tseng> is it in breezy?
[12:46] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:46] <tseng> i need to mockup as im thinking
[12:46] <tseng> coding it would be too slow
[12:46] <tseng> the way its written.. i really dont like
[12:47] <tseng> it has templates
[12:47] <tseng> and code seperate
[12:48] <Burgundavia> http://img127.echo.cx/my.php?image=revumockup25tg.png
[12:48] <Burgundavia> that is my top bar idea for the package pag
[12:48] <Burgundavia> e
[12:49] <tseng> thats good
[12:49] <tseng> but
[12:49] <tseng> whats the difference in icons
[12:49] <tseng> (and why icons)
[12:49] <Burgundavia> icons are easy and clear
[12:49] <Burgundavia> no thinking involved
[12:50] <Burgundavia> should be New/Updated
[12:50] <Burgundavia> showing whether or not the package is already in the archives
[12:50] <tseng> if its in the archive
[12:50] <tseng> we should drop it
[12:50] <tseng> i see no reason to maintain that data once 3 motus approve
[12:50] <Burgundavia> I thought REVU was also for non-MOTU's to upload changes to existing packages?
[12:50] <tseng> is it?
[12:50] <ajmitch> yes
[12:50] <tseng> thats bollocks
[12:51] <ajmitch> unless you wanted a separate review process just for those?
[12:51] <tseng> i wouldnt want them on the same page?
[12:51] <Burgundavia> why not?
[12:51] <ajmitch> since the only difference is whether they need 3 MOTU thumbs up
[12:51] <tseng> not to hurt anyones feelings, but i dont care if a 15 year old kid can run uupdate -u
[12:51] <Burgundavia> what about people like me
[12:51] <tseng> part of the new package process is assessing a *persons* skills
[12:52] <tseng> to join motu
[12:52] <Burgundavia> I plan on doing some work with existing packages
[12:52] <ajmitch> that's great, but we're talking about fixing bugs in packages, not just new upstream versions
[12:52] <Burgundavia> those changes will need to be reviewed somwhere
[12:52] <Burgundavia> I am not 15 year old kid
[12:52] <tseng> i guess they do
[12:52] <tseng> but its more of a once-off thing
[12:52] <tseng> revu is fine
[12:53] <Burgundavia> REVU will work great
[12:53] <ajmitch> like all the Cxx transition - we needed some way to review people's work
[12:53] <Burgundavia> as this will mean that people like me don't have to go find webspace
[12:53] <Burgundavia> that was the biggest thing that held me back
[12:53] <tseng> ah good point
[12:53] <ajmitch> yes, my debian sponsor didn;t like grabbing packages at 16K/sec from my box
[12:54] <ajmitch> getting source from mentors.debian.net was far more convenient for him
[12:54] <tseng> can we put that in a seperate page?
[12:54] <tseng> or something
[12:54] <tseng> i dunno
[12:54] <tseng> you said mark them with an icon
[12:54] <tseng> if they are NEW
[12:54] <ajmitch> especially as this will be hosted at a DC, with plenty of bandwidth
[12:54] <tseng> capitol NEW meaning not in the archive
[12:55] <tseng> ok so tell me one more time why we need Archived Uploads
[12:55] <tseng> hm i know
[12:55] <tseng> but lets make it another tab
[12:56] <Burgundavia> I have no idea
[12:56] <tseng> i dog
[12:56] <tseng> do!
[12:56] <tseng> so someone can have 2 packages uploaded
[12:56] <tseng> when they are doing their 3rd
[12:56] <tseng> we can be like, hey, here are the other 2
[12:56] <tseng> they look awesome
[12:56] <ajmitch> because the MOTUToReview pacge quickly filled up with out-of-date stuff
[12:56] <tseng> lets approve him to TB as a maintainer
[12:56] <tseng> so
[12:56] <tseng> now on the main page we have one table
[12:57] <tseng> everything that is not yet uploaded
[12:57] <tseng> then
[12:57] <ajmitch> archived uploads mainly applies to changes to existing packages, imho
[12:57] <tseng> we have links across the top, tabs if you will
[12:57] <tseng> New / Needs Work / Ready for Upload / Archived
[12:57] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[12:57] <tseng> will adjust the query
[12:57] <tseng> and redraw the table
[12:57] <Burgundavia> so we need 4 icons for the status
[12:57] <tseng> yes
[12:58] <tseng> ajmitch: thirded?
[12:58] <ajmitch> ?
[12:58] <tseng> seconded, thirded
[12:58] <tseng> you know.
[12:58] <ajmitch> right..
[12:58] <ajmitch> sure
[12:59] <tseng> Burgundavia: we can use the tabs off the wiki/homepage
[12:59] <tseng> and change the text
[12:59] <tseng> for the "tabs"
[12:59] <tseng> oh man
[12:59] <tseng> and put it into the header bar
[12:59] <tseng> it wont clutter the page at all up there
[12:59] <tseng> and be easy to use
[12:59] <tseng> Burgundavia: can you put that together?
[01:00] <tseng> we'll put out login link up there too
[01:00] <tseng> exactly as on the homepage
[01:03] <Burgundavia> put which together?
[01:03] <tseng> Burgundavia: buttons for the top of the page
[01:03] <Burgundavia> you talking html and css?
[01:03] <tseng> Burgundavia: in the header
[01:03] <tseng> like on the ubuntu homepage see
[01:03] <Burgundavia> ahh
[01:03] <tseng> for our different "tabs"
[01:04] <tseng> all 4 of the
[01:04] <tseng> m
[01:04] <Burgundavia> you want me to take the buttons from the ubuntu.com page and edit them for our purposes?
[01:04] <tseng> yes
[01:04] <Burgundavia> can do
[01:04] <tseng> i imagine someone has a blank
[01:05] <ajmitch> tseng: as an aside, how's monopod looking?
[01:05] <tseng> ajmitch: the package, or the app?
[01:05] <Burgundavia> they are done using js and dvis
[01:05] <tseng> ajmitch: i fixed your nested folder, it still needs a manpage
[01:06] <tseng> Burgundavia: oh!
[01:06] <ajmitch> 1337
[01:06] <tseng> perfect
[01:07] <tseng> ok so
[01:07] <tseng> i am really excited to just plow into this as you can tell
[01:08] <tseng> but i think it might be better long term if we put all our braindump into the wiki now
[01:08] <tseng> before continuing, yes?
[01:08] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:08] <Burgundavia> REVUDevelopment?
[01:08] <tseng> sure
[01:08] <tseng> making it
[01:09] <tseng> you beat me
[01:09] <Burgundavia> already did
[01:09] <tseng> i wanst logged in
[01:09] <tseng> :P
[01:09] <tseng> ok, be my guest
[01:10] <tseng> ill see what the ubuntu stylesheet does to the page in the meantime
[01:12] <tseng> yuck :P
[01:30] <Burgundavia> do you have any idea about archive icon?
[01:32] <tseng> a zip file?
[01:32] <tseng> "archive"
[01:32] <tseng> play on the word
[01:32] <robitaille> a filing cabinet?
[01:32] <Burgundavia> http://img124.echo.cx/my.php?image=revumockup39kt.png
[01:32] <Burgundavia> those are for new and updated
[01:33] <Burgundavia> and the button row is ready to upload and needs work
[01:33] <tseng> ok
[01:33] <tseng> most of those already exist in gnome icon theme
[01:33] <tseng> in high color
[01:33] <Burgundavia> I was having fun with inkscape
[01:33] <tseng> i usually just steal them :)
[01:33] <Burgundavia> I want to avoid words and have distinct shapes for each
[01:34] <tseng> im serious
[01:34] <Burgundavia> that is why I am designing them in black and white
[01:34] <Burgundavia> I will look for ideas
[01:34] <tseng> there is a hammer, a circle, an up, and a check
[01:34] <tseng> all nicely shaped
[01:34] <tseng> if you want to make the effort though, be my guest
[01:35] <Burgundavia> where is the gnome icon them kept?
[01:36] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/icons.php
[01:36] <tseng> most of it can be access here
[01:36] <tseng> but i will give you the icons im talking about
[01:36] <tseng> given a few minutes
[01:37] <|QuaD-> hey, whats joe gasiorek's irc name?
[01:37] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/gtk-stock//stock_ok.png
[01:37] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/gtk-stock//stock_top.png
[01:37] <tseng> those come in various sizes
[01:38] <tseng> and i think without the - on top
[01:39] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/anjuta//app-icon.png
[01:39] <tseng> your hammer
[01:39] <Burgundavia> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/gtk-stock//stock_add.png
[01:39] <Burgundavia> for archived
[01:39] <tseng> one more i am looking for is
[01:39] <tseng> refresh
[01:39] <tseng> from a browser
[01:39] <Burgundavia> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/gtk-stock//stock_refresh-blue.png
[01:39] <Burgundavia> that one
[01:40] <tseng> yes
[01:40] <Burgundavia> for updated?
[01:40] <tseng> yes
[01:40] <Burgundavia> I will update the wiki page accordingly
[01:40] <tseng> just based on your mockup
[01:40] <tseng> we dont have to use these, they are jsut burned into my brain
[01:40] <tseng> you are noticing by now that im a very odd person
[01:41] <Burgundavia> they are bold and simple
[01:41] <tseng> the archive one
[01:41] <tseng> hang ong
[01:41] <tseng> thats the wrong size
[01:41] <tseng> and not as fitting
[01:43] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/gtk-stock//stock_add.png
[01:43] <tseng> there is the filing cabinet
[01:43] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/XD2//file-manager.png
[01:43] <tseng> and larger
[01:44] <tseng> oh i have a bit of an itch
[01:44] <tseng> what if someone uploads a package
[01:44] <tseng> and we have no intention of ever approving it for some reason
[01:44] <tseng> say its not legal to distribute or its totally crack buggy
[01:45] <tseng> we havent accounted for this yet
[01:45] <Burgundavia> we need a rejected status
[01:45] <tseng> yes
[01:45] <tseng> it doesnt need to have a view really
[01:46] <tseng> but the package page should be able to handle it if you stumble on it somehow
[01:47] <Burgundavia> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/git//im-jabber-48.png
[01:47] <Burgundavia> for new?
[01:47] <Burgundavia> new as in not yet reviewed
[01:47] <tseng> sure why not
[01:48] <tseng> these dont need to be cast in stone at all
[01:49] <Burgundavia> no
[01:50] <tseng> the different "tabs" dont need to be ajax
[01:50] <tseng> they can do a GET back to the same page
[01:51] <tseng> ajax would be not bookmarkable
[01:51] <Burgundavia> I had an idea for the status
[01:51] <tseng> since the GET happens in javascript and not an actually href
[01:51] <tseng> yeah?
[01:52] <Burgundavia> we could use sections of a circle to show show many reviews it has received (successful that is)
[01:52] <tseng> yes!
[01:53] <Burgundavia> I was wondering if you upcheck and package and pitti downchecks it, what do we do then?
[01:53] <tseng> i was wondering that too
[01:53] <tseng> but
[01:53] <Burgundavia> do we carry forward your upcheck?
[01:53] <tseng> i think 3 upchecks makes it gold
[01:54] <tseng> someone reading the bug should not give another upcheck
[01:54] <tseng> until pitti's issue is resolved
[01:54] <tseng> thats a social issue
[01:54] <tseng> we dont need to have a technical solution, i think
[01:54] <Burgundavia> so the icon would change from circle to needs work
[01:54] <tseng> yes
[01:54] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:54] <tseng> hm
[01:54] <tseng> what if
[01:55] <tseng> it stays needs work until another upload
[01:55] <tseng> to remove the downcheck
[01:55] <tseng> then it can go back to a blank circle
[01:55] <Burgundavia> that was my thought all along
[01:55] <tseng> and start over
[01:55] <Burgundavia> no reviews and fully reviewed need to be different shapes
[01:56] <Burgundavia> here is my thought for status
[01:56] <Burgundavia> no reviews --> needs work/circles --> read to upload
[01:56] <Burgundavia> no reviews as an empty circle or something completely different?
[01:58] <ajmitch> bbl
[02:02] <Burgundavia> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/XD2//favourites-48.png
[02:02] <Burgundavia> for ready to upload?
[02:03] <tseng> yes!
[02:03] <jamessan|laptop> heh
[02:03] <tseng> daniel wont be able to help himself
[02:13] <tseng> Burgundavia: hey man, its been great working with you
[02:13] <tseng> its my dinner time here
[02:13] <tseng> ill be back in an hour or so
[02:17] <Burgundavia> ok
[02:36] <ogra> what about http://www.grawert.net/revu_icons/
[02:37] <Burgundavia> sorry
[02:37] <Burgundavia> they need to be different shapes
[02:38] <Burgundavia> our mind works that way
[02:38] <Burgundavia> THAT IS WHY THIS IS HARD TO READ
[02:38] <Burgundavia> and this is not
[02:39] <ogra> i think they are all packages with differen stati
[02:39] <ogra> different even
[02:39] <ogra> anyway, just a proposal
[02:39] <Burgundavia> indeed
[02:39] <Burgundavia> take your icons and make them black and white
[02:40] <Burgundavia> and try and tell them apart
[02:40] <ogra> that is why they are colored ;)
[02:40] <Burgundavia> ok
[02:40] <Burgundavia> look at most of the icons on your desktop
[02:41] <Burgundavia> they are different shapes
[02:41] <ogra> heh, currently not *g*
[02:41] <Burgundavia> your panel then
[02:41] <ogra> (i'm just testing the new theme...all mimetypes are missing)
[02:41] <Burgundavia> FF is a good example
[02:42] <Burgundavia> the 5 icons all have very distinctive shapes
[02:42] <Burgundavia> anyway, dinner calls
[02:47] <ogra> night all
[03:19] <tseng> Burgundavia++
[03:22] <tseng> oh man
[03:22] <tseng> http://www.novell.com/products/groupwise/
[03:22] <tseng> this flash trailer is hilarious
[03:22] <tseng> it goes too fast to really read
[03:22] <tseng> but the "selling points" are loaded with humor too
[03:25] <|QuaD-> does monodevelop not work for anyone else?
[03:25] <tseng> it works for me, obviously
[03:25] <|QuaD-> tseng: i get an infinite loop everytime i try to compile
[03:25] <|QuaD-> i think infinite loop
[03:25] <tseng> i see.
[03:25] <|QuaD-> it just starts the compile, never finnishes
[03:25] <|QuaD-> i don't know how to explain it
[03:26] <tseng> works for me, and meebey, and probably dozens more
[03:26] <|QuaD-> it doesn't leave the "performing main compilation" stage
[03:26] <|QuaD-> hmm
[03:26] <tseng> so youll need to get it to a reproduceable test case
[03:26] <tseng> and file a bug upstream
[03:26] <|QuaD-> tseng: heh, for me it never works :)
[03:35] <|QuaD-> tseng: here is what the console says when it fails (project name is asd, just a plain hello world console app for c#)
[03:35] <|QuaD-> Generating makefiles for asd
[03:35] <|QuaD-> Reading /home/derek/Projects/asd/asd.pidb
[03:35] <tseng> sorry i dont know
[03:36] <|QuaD-> tseng: alright, i am going to google osme more, i am sure someone else had this problem too
[03:36] <tseng> as i said you need to file a bug upstream if you want to pursue it
[03:36] <|QuaD-> tseng: it may be something i fubarred
[03:36] <tseng> well
[03:37] <|QuaD-> (i don't knwo what i did, but maybe0
[03:37] <tseng> removing ~/.config/Monodevelop and creaint a clean project
[03:37] <tseng> would rule that out
[03:37] <|QuaD-> thats what i did :(
[03:37] <|QuaD-> ok
[03:39] <|QuaD-> tseng: my CodeCompletionData only has one pidb file in it, is that bad?
[03:41] <tseng> not a clue
[03:49] <|QuaD-> tseng: what references should be in all apps?
[03:49] <tseng> h?
[03:49] <tseng> hm
[03:50] <|QuaD-> like System, System.xml...
[03:50] <tseng> create a clean app
[03:50] <tseng> with the gnome template
[03:50] <tseng> build it
[03:50] <tseng> it should run a window with no widgets in it
[03:50] <|QuaD-> tseng: i did, i think that was my problem, i tried with a console app, it wasn't including system
[03:52] <|QuaD-> or anything else, for that matter
[03:52] <tseng> buh
[03:54] <|QuaD-> ...
[05:14] <Burgundavia> hmm, lwn's grumby editor uses Ubuntu
[05:14] <Burgundavia> pretty easy to see when Ubuntu is being used
[05:14] <Burgundavia> as it is brown
[05:14] <Lathiat> heh
[05:15] <Lathiat> yeh
[05:15] <Lathiat> woo just got my keyboard replaced
[05:15] <jamessan> really?  ;-P
[05:19] <jamessan> bddebian: like a big 9V battery?
[05:19] <ajmitch> bddebian: you just want to get rid of me, don't you? ;)
[05:19] <bddebian> Nah
[05:20] <bddebian> I told you I'll try to take care of you :-)
[05:20] <ajmitch> heh
[05:20] <ajmitch> there's a fair chance it'll still work
[05:27] <bddebian> w00t
[05:27] <chillywilly> *thwap* *thwap* *thwap*
[05:27] <bddebian> Heya chillywilly
[05:27] <chillywilly> hiya
[05:42] <ajmitch> hello chillywilly
[06:13] <schweeb> hello MOTUs
[06:18] <ajmitch> hey schweeb
[06:19] <schweeb> did you subscribe yourself to my wiki page intentionally, ajmitch?
[06:19] <schweeb> or are you subscribed to all personal pages?
[06:19] <schweeb> I noticed a notify email was sent when I updated today
[06:26] <ajmitch> all wiki pages :)
[06:26] <ajmitch> it helps track all the MOTU & universe changes
[06:29] <schweeb> gotcha
[06:30] <ajmitch> I already get enough mail, so wiki subscription doesn't hurt as much
[06:33] <schweeb> heh
[06:33] <schweeb> speaking of getting enough mail
[06:34] <schweeb> Lotus Notes makes my cry
[06:34] <schweeb> especially since you can't just hook up any POP or IMAP client to it
[06:34] <schweeb> you need their client, which is horrid and doesn't work
[06:36] <ajmitch> I've heard that it's quite evil
[06:37] <schweeb> if you ever visit the states, or I happen to still be using Notes by the time the next Ubuntu con is on (hopefully I'm MOTU and available to go next time) I'll show it to you... you will weep
[06:41] <ajmitch> no thanks ;)
[06:43] <Burgundavia> I had to use a call management system at my old job
[06:43] <Burgundavia> it was a home brew thing
[06:43] <Burgundavia> worst web interface I think i have ever seen
[06:53] <schweeb> Burgundavia: well, Notes is better than our ticket/incident management system
[06:54] <schweeb> Peregrine ServiceCenter is utterly horrible
[06:54] <Burgundavia> I think sticks would have been better than our call management system
[06:56] <schweeb> hrm
[06:56] <schweeb> the newer versions of service center look bearable
[06:56] <Burgundavia> I hope the malone starts shaping up RSN
[07:19] <hondje> Hi smart guys.  Why can I run ethereal using sudo in a terminal without a problem, but using it from a menu using (I'm assuming) gksudo doesn't work, and requires a real root account?
[07:26] <Burgundavia> hondje, that is a better issue to be filed in a bug report or debugged in #ubuntu
[07:26] <hondje> okay, thanks :)
[08:51] <robitaille> \sh:  thanks for your jabber server.  I registered an account tonight.
[08:52] <\sh> robitaille: encountered some really nice pitfalls with the transports so I disabled the transports until I fix the transports upstream source
[08:52] <\sh> (icq, msn, aim)
[08:52] <\sh> coffee
[08:53] <robitaille> \sh:  not using any transports (yet).  So I'll be fine for now
[09:12] <\sh> robitaille: I was using them and the transports have problems with utf8 characters...and those transports bugging the session manager and router processes of the jabberd2 and then: crash..
[09:47] <DanielN_atw> how can i read out mysql blobs?
[10:23] <DanielN_atw> \sh, ping :)
[10:23] <highvoltage> DanielN_atw: everybody's sleeping :)
[10:26] <DanielN_atw> highvoltage, not \sh i think.. he's in the same timezone as me.. and here its 10:26 am
[10:26] <DanielN_atw> :)
[10:26] <highvoltage> where are you, south africa?
[10:26] <DanielN_atw> switzerland
[10:27] <highvoltage> ah.
[10:27] <DanielN_atw> :)
[10:29] <\sh> DanielN_atw: pong
[10:30] <DanielN_atw> \sh, sorry, i forgot to show up the techboard weeking on tuesday
[10:30] <\sh> DanielN_atw: yes...next time
[10:30] <DanielN_atw> but i had my "jahresabschlussprfungen" and so i forgot it ;>
[10:31] <DanielN_atw> i'll ping you later again.. have some probs with fixing libyehia ;>
[10:32] <DanielN_atw> but now it's smoking time
[01:36] <tseng> hi
[01:37] <\sh> moins tseng
[01:37] <tseng> i just made my monitor 75dpi
[01:37] <tseng> man
[01:37] <tseng> everyone is all like, go up
[01:37] <tseng> down is nice
[01:38] <tseng> much smaller fonts
[01:56] <Lathiat> tseng: heh i look at 96dpi which is really 129dpi so tahts probably about the same, it is nice
[01:56] <Lathiat> tseng<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:56] <tseng> well
[01:56] <tseng> i dont entirely understand it
[01:56] <tseng> but i think if i fix my X config to be at 96dpi instead of 75dpi
[01:56] <tseng> i will get tiny fonts at "correct" dpi
[01:57] <Lathiat> i jus tset it in the gnome settings
[01:57] <tseng> before X thought it was 75dpi, and gnome drew 96dpi fonts
[01:57] <Lathiat> whatever that does
[01:57] <tseng> if they are both 96
[01:57] <tseng> i bet it would look nice
[01:57] <tseng> i need a ruler to do it
[01:57] <Lathiat> nvidia driver fixes up X's DPI for me
[01:57] <tseng> i cant find the dimensions for my monitor
[01:57] <Lathiat> autodetects the size etc
[01:57] <tseng> < ati
[01:57] <Lathiat> yeh this is a laptop lcd too
[01:57] <Lathiat> so
[03:58] <kiko> hey there
[03:58] <kiko> who can give a vino bug some love?
[04:14] <mgalvin> i just put a new version of cegui on my site for review, its version 0.3.0, just released today
[04:14] <mgalvin> i will be build ogre3d against this today
[04:16] <siretart> mgalvin: consider uploading to revu ;)
[04:17] <mgalvin> siretart, i just send you my key so you can add me as an uploader right?
[04:18] <siretart> nothing here yet..
[04:18] <siretart> whats your gpgid?
[04:18] <mgalvin> i meant, is that all i have to do?
[04:19] <siretart> yes
[04:19] <siretart> tell me your gnupg id your using for signing your uploads
[04:19] <siretart> you are using, even..
[04:19] <mgalvin> i just emailed it to you
[04:19] <mgalvin> its on it way
[04:19] <siretart> ok
[04:21] <siretart> mgalvin: I added you to the keyring.
[04:21] <siretart> mgalvin: please try to get your key signed by someone in the strong set
[04:22] <siretart> for revu your key is ok, but you'll need it for ubuntu anyway
[04:22] <mgalvin> ok, thnx, i will do
[04:29] <siretart> no problem. just upload now to revu as instructed on the wiki page
[04:37] <tseng> siretart: did you see our wiki page from yesterday?
[04:38] <tseng> siretart: burgandiva and i specced some improvements to the ui
[04:48] <siretart> tseng: not yet, looking
[04:48] <siretart> tseng: which wiki page?
[04:48] <tseng> REVUDevelopment
[04:48] <tseng> but
[04:49] <mgalvin> siretart, what did you set my revu password to? and can i change it once i log in?
[04:49] <tseng> i dont think its written in such a way that you know what we are talking about
[04:50] <siretart> tseng: sweeet! I love the icons! :) (sistpoty too *g*)
[04:50] <siretart> mgalvin: I didn't set it yet. will mail it to you encrypted after your first upload
[04:51] <mgalvin> siretart, ok
[04:52] <siretart> tseng: I took a glance at the backlog with your discussion, I think we have similar ideas
[04:54] <siretart> tseng: but, I don't think "updating" an upload is a good idea. sistpoty and me have been discussion abount "joining" or "merging" uploads. the details page would have then links to "related" packages, with possibility to display debdiffs between them
[04:54] <siretart> so no need for "updating" uploads
[04:58] <siretart> tseng: what do you think?
[05:03] <tseng> siretart: uh
[05:03] <tseng> siretart: debdiff++
[05:03] <tseng> as far as seperate pages
[05:03] <tseng> wtf?
[05:04] <siretart> btw, where did you get the sweet icons from?
[05:04] <tseng> gnome icon theme
[05:04] <tseng> and gtk stock
[05:04] <siretart> ah. :)
[05:04] <tseng> we need to have a way to view a users history too
[05:05] <tseng> so we can quickly see someones past uploads when they come to TB
[05:05] <siretart> what do you count as users history? only the uploads he did?
[05:05] <tseng> yes links to his uploads
[05:05] <tseng> its not important for current motus
[05:05] <tseng> but for new people
[05:05] <siretart> that would be possible with a new page, userinfo.py perhaps
[05:05] <siretart> all information needed should already be in the db..
[05:06] <tseng> yep
[05:06] <siretart> great idea with users history, btw
[05:07] <tseng> thanks
[06:08] <DanielN> ree
[06:10] <DanielN> wb \sh
[06:10] <DanielN> :)
[06:14] <\sh> *grmpf*
[06:14] <\sh> just finishing up my jabberd2
[06:14] <\sh> migrated the jabberd2 db from mysql to postgres
[06:15] <DanielN> nice :)
[06:15] <DanielN> why? what sucks on mysql?
[06:17] <ogra> mysql is for beginners ;)
[06:17] <DanielN> lol
[06:17] <\sh> DanielN: utf8 support etc. is in mysql very shiddy implemented...
[06:17] <DanielN> err
[06:17] <ogra> you cant do views (does it know joins now ?) date and time functions are nonstandard etc
[06:17] <\sh> ogra: innerjoins yes
[06:17] <DanielN> yeah
[06:18] <DanielN> hate these sql shit since i had my prfung in relational databses :/
[06:19] <ogra> mysql is easier in the beginning, but if you need advanced functionallity like oracle or other big DB engines offer, you will switc to postgres most likely...
[06:19] <mgalvin> i cannot build cegui 0.3.0 under a pbuilder for breezy b/c freeglut3-dev will not install b/c of libdevil-dev: Depends: libdevil1 (= 1.6.7-4) but it is not going to be installed
[06:19] <DanielN> yeah? but it's not really common for webspace hosters
[06:19] <DanielN> :/
[06:19] <mgalvin> should i just open a bug in malone?
[06:21] <ivoks> howdy folks! :)
[06:21] <DanielN> wuehh :)
[06:21] <ogra> hey ivoks
[06:21] <ivoks> feel free to comment :) ivoks.blog.hr :)
[06:22] <ivoks> DanielN: how is packaging going?
[06:22] <DanielN> phone
[06:23] <DanielN> ivoks, it's cool
[06:23] <DanielN> some problems with yehia atm
[06:24] <DanielN> see ya later
[06:25] <ivoks> ok, bye :)
[06:26] <\sh> ivoks: yes
[06:26] <ivoks> \sh: yes what? :)
[06:26] <\sh> ivoks: r u aggregated on the planet?
[06:26] <\sh> ivoks: jabber component
[06:26] <ivoks> \sh: nope
[06:27] <ivoks> \sh: yeah, we should do that!
[06:27] <ivoks> i almost buyed Jabber programming
[06:27] <\sh> ivoks: ping jdub :) and ogra for a nice hackergotchi ,-)
[06:27] <ivoks> ogra: seems to be here :)
[06:27] <ogra> ivoks, send me a picture, i can make a hackergotchi ...
[06:28] <ivoks> ok, will do that...
[06:28] <\sh> ogra: do the hackergotchi also for daniel robbitaile :)
[06:28] <ogra> he has one
[06:28] <ogra> he just needs to send it jdub
[06:29] <\sh> ogra: yeah, but not a nice one ;)
[06:29] <ogra> his choice... i make hackergohis for everyone who asks :)
[06:30] <Nafallo> ogra: good to know :-)
[06:30] <ogra> :)
[06:31] <Nafallo> much less security required :-P
[06:32] <Nafallo> and nicer people, that you might even have a chance to meet face-to-face :-)
[06:35] <\sh> "much less security required?"
[06:35] <Nafallo> \sh: yepp :-). the scene get's busted all over the globe atm ;-).
[06:35] <Nafallo> \sh: I wouldn't run into that with ubuntu I'm sure ;-)
[06:36] <ivoks> grr..
[06:36] <ivoks> evolution should have "n" for next message
[06:36] <ivoks> not . :)
[06:36] <ivoks> or both
[06:36] <Nafallo> ivoks: indeed
[06:36] <Nafallo> ivoks: "."?
[06:36] <ivoks> it easy to fix
[06:36] <ivoks> Nafallo: yes, pressing . goes to next unread
[06:37] <Nafallo> ivoks: not here.
[06:37] <Nafallo> ivoks: I have ]  :-/
[06:37] <ivoks> well, it should :)
[06:37] <ivoks> hm...
[06:37] <Nafallo> i.e. CTRL+ALT GR+9 :-P
[06:37] <ivoks> ?
[06:38] <Nafallo> ]  on swedish keyboard is that keycombo :-P
[06:38] <ivoks> haha
[06:38] <ivoks> i use US
[06:38] <Nafallo> more than a bit irritating ;-)
[06:38] <ivoks> i hate hr keymap
[06:38] <Nafallo> what I really would love is the tbird way ;-)
[06:39] <ivoks> with n?
(being at the end)<space)(next msg) :-)
[06:39] <ivoks> :)
[06:40] <JanC> it's not the thunderbird way, other apps have been doing that for ages
[06:41] <Nafallo> JanC: for me it's the tbird way of reading mail ;-)
[06:41] <Nafallo> JanC: before ubuntu I mostly used cli ;-)
[06:41] <ivoks> Nafallo: sudo vim /usr/share/evolution/2.4/ui/evolution-mail-message.xml
[06:41] <Nafallo> ivoks: baah :-P
[06:42] <ivoks> line 243
[06:42] <Nafallo> aha
[06:42] <ivoks> keybindings :)
[06:43] <Nafallo> there is no way I could do that just for the user I guess? :-)
[06:43] <ivoks> why?
[06:43] <ivoks> you can have multiple keybindings for same action
[06:43] <Nafallo> I don't like being outside of /home if I can avoid it :-)
[06:43] <ivoks> Nafallo: well, i guess it's possible
[06:43] <JanC> Nafallo : some cli programs do that too I think ?
[06:44] <JanC> like 'less'  :)
[06:44] <Nafallo> JanC: hehe, like less yes :-)
[06:44] <Nafallo> JanC: but that one doesn't switch to new message ;-)
[06:46] <Nafallo> ivoks: hmm, I'll stick to *Control*period ;-)
[06:46] <Nafallo> baah
[07:34] <\sh> i will lay down for 1 1/2 hour...
[07:34] <\sh> bbl
[07:46] <slomo> hi... how do i package something which is released only as tar.bz2 upstream? dpkg-source insists in creating a tar.gz
[07:48] <bddebian> Howdy
[07:51] <highvoltage> howdy
[08:33] <\sh> slomo: repackage
[08:44] <\sh> sh*****
[08:44] <\sh> i install now ejabberd
[08:47] <\sh> and for that i have to recompile ejabberd-0.9.1-1
[10:19] <mgalvin> siretart, ping
[10:22] <bradb> hey motu
[10:23] <tseng> hi.
[10:23] <bradb> usability survey: https://staging.ubuntu.com/products/malone/+bugs -- what do you guys thing of the changes that have so far been made on this page? (disclaimer: i suck at CSS, it'll need a bit of mpt love)
[10:24] <tseng> on the css note
[10:24] <tseng> its hard to quickly see the different between columns
[10:24] <tseng> and i like to alternate row colors slightly
[10:24] <tseng> the sidebar, much better
[10:25] <tseng> useful actions
[10:25] <bradb> tseng: what's more asthetically pleasing to you, that "sidebar" look, or the portlets we normally use?
[10:26] <siretart> mgalvin: pong
[10:26] <tseng> the sidebar
[10:26] <bradb> also: https://staging.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[10:26] <tseng> holy crap, assign to me
[10:27] <tseng> uh
[10:27] <tseng> users are such tools
[10:27] <tseng> "Ubuntu mythtv New Critical High Matt Zimmerman"
[10:27] <tseng> MY BUG IS TEH CRITICALZ
[10:27] <bradb> warning: this is only staging, so make sure you do your fix on prod ;)
[10:28] <tseng> oh..
[10:28] <bradb> i believe the data is the same though
[10:28] <tseng> its time for me to go home really
[10:28] <bradb> ok
[10:28] <bradb> who else should i bug about the malone UI...
[10:29] <tseng> Burgundavia, ogra if they have time
[10:29] <bradb> Burgundavia!
[10:29] <ogra> :)
[10:29] <bradb> ogra!
[10:29] <ogra> thanks
[10:29] <tseng> bye.
[10:29] <bradb> later tseng
[10:29] <ogra> bradb, i'm about to leave for dinner with sabdfl, mdz, almo and JaneW
[10:29] <bradb> ok
[10:29] <ogra> heh, s/almo/elmo
[10:30] <bradb> Burgundavia's a usability nut. i'm sure he has something to say.
[10:30] <mgalvin> siretart, any chance of getting a password for revu, i wanted to reply to a comment?
[10:30] <mgalvin> i uploaded 4 packages
[10:31] <\sh> ok..ejabber + all migrations doine
[10:31] <ogra> bradb, absolutely and you can trust his judgement...
[10:31] <ogra> ...mostly :)
[10:31] <sistpoty> mgalvin: send a gpg-signed mail to siretart
[10:31] <sistpoty> mgalvin: with your password in it ;)
[10:31] <Burgundavia> right here
[10:31] <bradb> !
[10:32] <siretart> mgalvin: just a moment.. (wlan very unreliable here)
[10:32] <bradb> Burgundavia: https://staging.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bugs (disclaimer 1: this is staging, not production. disclaimer 2: i suck at CSS; it needs some mpt love)
[10:32] <\sh> ogra: greetings to all :) and don't eat beef ;)
[10:32] <mgalvin> sistpoty, i sent him my info before, but he asked that I upload a package first
[10:32] <bradb> what do you think of the changes that have been made to that page as compared to the last time you saw it?
[10:32] <siretart> btw, there was a bug in the process_upload script, the nvidia-cg wasn't processed correctly. Will do manually
[10:32] <mgalvin> siretart, ok
[10:32] <Burgundavia> first thought: I worry about how it looks at 800x600
[10:32] <ogra> \sh, i'm to crazy already, uk beef wont harm me :)
[10:32] <Burgundavia> as it just wide enough on my screen to show all useful info
[10:32] <\sh> ogra: ehe :)
[10:33] <Burgundavia> I have 1280x1024
[10:33] <bradb> true
[10:33] <ogra> guys ! mae wants to build anjuta2 for us, please lend a hand :)
[10:33] <Burgundavia> bradb, this would be the page for any product?
[10:34] <Burgundavia> generally, vertical scrolling is far better than horizontal scrolling
[10:34] <bradb> it's the distro page. the upstream page is: https://staging.ubuntu.com/products/malone/+bugs (forgive me if my lp maintainer terminology sounds different to what terms you use to refer to these things)
[10:34] <Burgundavia> as we have a mouse wheel
[10:35] <Burgundavia> bradb, but say I was looking for bugs on, say, the Gimp, would it also display a page like this?
[10:35] <bradb> Burgundavia: when we add the sourcepackage-specific view, yes. that should be coming along in a few days.
[10:35] <Burgundavia> what about placing the side bar at the bottom, as a horizontal bar?
[10:35] <bradb> (er, merged into the codebase. might take longer to actually be rolled out)
[10:36] <Burgundavia> it also feels "crammed"
[10:36] <ogra> night all
[10:36] <Burgundavia> like I have to strain to look at the beginning of it
[10:36] <Burgundavia> the id column
[10:37] <bradb> at the bottom eh...interesting
[10:37] <siretart> mgalvin: you got mail
[10:37] <Burgundavia> the top right might be another good place
[10:37] <bradb> Burgundavia: why at the bottom and not at the top or where it's currently placed?
[10:37] <Burgundavia> just throwing ideas around
[10:38] <Burgundavia> I want the page to be no wider than the table
[10:38] <Burgundavia> you could have a status bar at the top
[10:38] <Burgundavia> showing the package being tracked and the number of bugs filed for it
[10:39] <Burgundavia> because at the top currently you have 3 places with the word "malone"
[10:40] <Burgundavia> to be honest, I could care less that I am using the malone bug tracker
[10:40] <bradb> heh, interesting point
[10:40] <Burgundavia> what i care about is that I am looking at bugs, and for what package
[10:42] <\sh> wow
[10:42] <\sh> done
[10:42] <bradb> anyone else, support or disagree with what Burgundavia said?
[10:51] <ups> bradb, on 800x600 the right-side bar overlaps the content; on the bug page i get a horiz scrollbar
[10:52] <bradb> ups: right. what would you expect to happen when you shrink your browser to 800 x 600?
[10:53] <ups> bradb, are you using ems for the layout?
[10:54] <ups> bradb, btw, i have an old monitor - i can only run 800x600 on it
[10:54] <Burgundavia> I had a thought just now
[10:54] <Burgundavia> what about making the options tabs
[10:54] <Burgundavia> and then use ajax for fast switching
[10:55] <Burgundavia> thoughts on that?
[10:55] <Burgundavia> not tabs in the browser, but tabs on the page
[10:55] <sivang> ajax?
[10:55] <bradb> ups: what's ems?
[10:55] <Burgundavia> asyncronous javascript and xml
[10:55] <JanC> ajax is a fancy buzzword for javascritp  :)
[10:55] <Burgundavia> gmail and google maps, basically
[10:56] <bradb> how well supported is that?
[10:56] <Burgundavia> quite
[10:56] <Burgundavia> any standards compliant browser can do it
[10:56] <Burgundavia> even IE can
[10:56] <ups> bradb, ems is a relative unit, it works like % - you specify relative dimensions as with %
[10:57] <Burgundavia> basically makes web apps more rich, more like standalone programs
[10:57] <JanC> there are some javascript libraries for this that fix all the browser quirks for you
[10:58] <Burgundavia> you should also use ajax for fast column sorting, but that is another matter
[10:58] <bradb> is ems different from ajax? i get the feeling it is.
[10:59] <sivang> oh it's like making a desktop application "alike" from a web page
[10:59] <JanC> ajax is javascript using http get to get data from the server
[11:00] <Burgundavia> means you avoid all that icky loading crap
[11:00] <JanC> and then dynamically changing the page with that data
[11:00] <ups> bradb, ems is just a unit like px, pt etc.
[11:00] <Burgundavia> without resorting to using java or flash
[11:00] <JanC> people have been doing this for years  :)
[11:00] <bradb> how is ajax different from xml-rpc?
[11:01] <Burgundavia> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/analogueboy/archive/2005/04/ajax_and_xmlrpc.html
[11:02] <Burgundavia> bradb, I have to run, as life calls, but I think I have given most of the my ideas already. PM me is want anything further
[11:02] <bradb> sounds good, thanks for the feedback and url
[11:07] <Burgundavia> bradb, further note, while I am on my way out, change total reported to all and have it the first link/tab
[11:07] <sh> lol
[11:08] <sh> irc via tkabber und einem irc transport
[11:08] <\sh> oops..and a irc transport ;)
[11:08] <bradb> Burgundavia: ok. i can't promise that we'll make all these changes, but i can promise that we're listening to what you're saying you want and taking those needs into consideration for the grand scheme of things with the UI.
[11:08] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:08] <Burgundavia> I am not the only crazy UI person involved with Ubuntu
[11:09] <bradb> Burgundavia: besides mpt, who are the other usability geeks in the house?
[11:09] <Burgundavia> tseng is pretty good
[11:10] <ups> bradb, you should look at ems - it is a part of standard css, and it avoids hardcoding pixel-sizes into the web page
[11:10] <bradb> tseng has given good feedback thus far, to be sure
[11:10] <ups> bradb, and hence you won't have to worry about different resolutions
[11:10] <bradb> indeed
[11:11] <bradb> when i said i sucked at CSS, i meant it :P
[11:11] <ups> :)
[11:11] <ups> it is used a lot
[11:12] <bradb> luckily, i don't normally have to write any CSS. it's mpt who does that most often, so i'll discuss the issue with him and see what his recommendation is, ems, etc.
[11:12] <ups> sure, thx
[11:12] <ups> i'm sure he knows about it :)
[11:12] <bradb> yup
[11:13] <ups> can i /msg you with an example site?
[11:14] <bradb> sure, by all means
[11:21] <tseng> bradb: is this the first mpt is working on malone?
[11:22] <bradb> no. he's been working on Malone since December when he came to Montreal to work with kiko and me on spec'ing out the entire UI
[11:22] <siretart> bradb: Who can I contact with problems with launchpad/wiki? I changed my email adress in the launchpad, now I don't get any wiki page subscriptions anymore
[11:22] <siretart> bradb: wiki is telling me to set my email adress in preferences, but there is no field email :(
[11:22] <bradb> siretart: interesting, one sec, let me see if i can get someone for you.
[11:25] <siretart> in fact, I first merged 2 accounts and then changed the email adress
[11:25] <\sh> off to bed..cu tomorrow
[11:26] <siretart> gn8 \sh_away
[11:27] <bradb> siretart: ok, i've passed on that information, so we'll see what the cabal says
[11:28] <siretart> bradb: thanks a lot!
[11:28] <siretart> bradb: in general, what would the contact adress be with such issues? in case someone asks me
[11:29] <bradb> there's no launchpad users ML right now, unfortunately :/ if anything, you could file a bug in Launchpad and we'll see it
[11:29] <bradb> but i think a users list is on the way; i just updated a spec on the UdU wiki yesterday to make note of the need for it
[11:29] <bradb> i.e. http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadAndUbuntuCommunity
[11:29] <siretart> ah, ok
[11:30] <bradb> (er, a couple days ago, but anyway)
[11:33] <tseng> bradb: thats sort of a funny title
[11:34] <tseng> id say im a pretty prominent community member and i still dont have a handle on alot of what launchpad is doing
[11:34] <tseng> just an observation
[11:36] <bradb> indeed. i'd be confused too, if i didn't work on launchpad. i think the spec addresses that issue and points at it as one of the things that really needs to be addressed.
[11:36] <bradb> (in the "Webpage" section)


[00:23] <bdmurray> @pilot out
[02:14] <phillw>  If there is someone available, could you tell me the difference between sudo do-release-upgrade and the apt-get update & dist-upgrade route?
[02:14] <phillw> brian intimated that they are not the same.
[02:15] <phillw> bdmurray: ^^
[02:53] <phillw> ScottK: I assume they are away for the w/end - I'll ask again in 'normal office hours' :)
[03:06] <ScottK> I don't know what you expect them to tell you I didn't already.  The pointer here was not meant to cause you to re-ask the question I already answered in -release.
[03:12] <bdmurray> phillw: ScottK answered the question pretty well.
[03:14] <phillw> bdmurray: I must have missed the answer.
[03:15] <bdmurray> phillw: "the simple version is it does lots of special-casing to make release upgrades smoother"
[03:19] <phillw> bdmurray: I do not suppose there is a cat on hells chance of that being explained on a sub page of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Testing_The_Devlopment_Release ?
[03:22] <phillw> I've yet to write up the dist-upgrade page page, so knowing the difference between that and do-release-upgrade would be of real help (not only to me, as I do not know the difference)
[03:23] <phillw> -page
[03:24] <ScottK> From a test perspective, all you need to write is that the supported upgrade method is using the release upgrader and describe how to do it.
[03:24] <bdmurray> The recommended way to upgrade between releases of Ubuntu is using the release upgrader.
[03:25] <bdmurray> I don't think other not recommended ways should be documented.
[03:25] <phillw> ScottK: bdmurray so for people using ubuntu+1 they should use do-release-upgrade and not update / dist-upgrade?
[03:25] <ScottK> yes
[03:26] <ScottK> no
[03:26] <bdmurray> Additionally, during the testing of the development release you wouldn't use do-release-upgrade.
[03:26] <ScottK> When you upgrade from one release to another, use do-release-upgrade.
[03:26] <bdmurray> That's used to move from release to release.
[03:26] <ScottK> Not when updating packages
[03:28] <phillw> so, I should advise  update / dist-upgrade
[03:29] <bdmurray> No, because that is for upgrading between releases.
[03:29] <bdmurray> Using update-manager is the recommended way to install updates.
[03:30] <phillw> bdmurray: I'm running 13.10, what is the best method to update it on a real (or virtual) machine?
[03:31] <bdmurray> use update-manager
[03:31] <phillw> I did not get linux kernel update because I needed to use dist-upgrade
[03:32]  * phillw confused, as usual :)
[03:33] <phillw> so, can I ask in terms of simple? I'm running 13.10 - what is the method to ensure it gets all the updates?
[03:34] <bdmurray> Again using update-manager is the way to get all updates.
[03:40] <phillw> running update-manager from terminal now :)
[03:41] <phillw> bdmurray:  I'm sorry for n00b questions, but it is an area of the testing wiki area I want to be fully correct.
[03:45] <phillw> bdmurray: is there a method of issuing that command and see progress?
[03:46] <bdmurray> update-manager is a gui application so I'm not sure what you mean
[03:47] <phillw> when using update manager from menu, we do have an option to see the progress :)
[03:48] <phillw> "Failed to download repository information" check your internet connection
[03:49] <phillw> Not too helpful :P
[04:07] <phillw> bdmurray: update-manager is not fit for testing purposes, it has no way of giving any error reports. Is there any other way to do the task via terminal?
[04:09] <phillw> bdmurray: also Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: "murrine", at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/FrontEnd/Gnome.pm line 96.
[04:09] <phillw>  is repeated many times.
[04:14] <bdmurray> phillw: this is what update-manager looks like - http://people.canonical.com/~brian/tmp/Screenshot%20from%202013-08-23%2021:13:01.png  is that what you are using?
[04:15] <phillw> bdmurray: I'm just filing a bug, it will be there in a couple of minutes.
[04:15] <bdmurray> phillw: could you answer my question?
[04:17] <phillw> bdmurray: nope. I do not see that.. just a small GUI window of the status. I will grab a screen shot to add to the bug.
[04:22] <phillw> bdmurray: anything else you need for bug 1216199 ?
[04:23] <bdmurray> well the screen shot
[04:24] <phillw> drat... just kicked in the ubuntu-bug command.... awaiting it to cancel :)
[04:29] <phillw> bdmurray: window shot added.
[04:30] <bdmurray> and then after that screen you should see one like I posted
[04:30] <phillw> I can add the entire screen if that would help, but I doubt it would.
[04:30] <phillw> Nope, never saw the next screen. as when it failed I had a choice of cancel or continue regardless.
[04:31] <bdmurray> You mentioned that it failed to download repository information earlier.
[04:31] <bdmurray> I suspect you have some PPAs enabled that don't support saucy.
[04:32] <phillw> yep, I have a dodgy PPA... but that should not cause a total failure
[04:33] <bdmurray> well remove that then
[04:33] <phillw> as testers, we are asked to run PPA's. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PPA_Testing
[04:34] <phillw> bdmurray: that then causes other issues, next it will be remove -proposed etc. It HAS to handle testing, or we need a CLI option.
[04:34] <infinity> You're not asked to run PPAs that 404, I imagine.
[04:35] <phillw> that one had failed, but it should not really cause a catastrophic failure?
[04:35] <phillw> I'll remove the PPA
[04:35] <infinity> It didn't.  It gave you the option to continue.
[04:35] <infinity> Your definition of catasrophe is curious.
[04:39] <phillw> It did not progress to your screen shot? I'm trying to get a heads up as to how to write the wiki page. As at present, on the screen shot I have does not state, nor can, state any error it is an 'abort' or 'ignore'. As there is the 'minor' issue of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/U%2B1/partial_upgrade which it does not seem to be able to handle
[04:40] <phillw> nor can it handle or report a 404 error
[04:42] <bdmurray> I don't know what you mean by "on the screen shot I have does not state, nor can, state any error it is an 'abort' or 'ignore'".  Could you explain that a bit more?
[04:46] <phillw> bdmurray: maybe I should try this from a different angle... give me a few minutes to write an idea up and pastebin it for you to read.
[04:47] <bdmurray> phillw: that's not really necessary
[04:47] <bdmurray> the dialog I see that is labelled "Failed to download repository information" has two buttson
[04:47] <bdmurray> Try Again and Ok
[04:47] <bdmurray> clicking ok presents the same screnshot I posted earlier
[04:47] <bdmurray> which then allows you to upgrade
[04:49] <phillw> yup, I did the try again, but as I have a known 404 on a ppa, that would be okay. However but, and it is a big 'BUT', i also see errors on apt-get update that needs me to re-run it again because of time outs.
[04:51] <phillw> bdmurray: please don't think I'm being awkward, I'm just trying to get a wiki page written up that can be referred to as the "Gold Standard" for people to refer to.
[04:52] <bdmurray> phillw: and I believe that the standard is update-manager, even though it may not be working for you personally
[04:54] <phillw> if on ubuntu+1 with other testing going on that we do get involved in, is a GUI the best option? If that is your considered opinion, I will write the page up as that. We'll then have to to think about how best to proceed when it throws an error message up.
[04:57] <phillw> "Failed to download repository information - check your internet connection"... Options are "Settings", "Try Again" and "OK". There is no way of seeing what the issue is.
[04:57] <bdmurray> phillw: I'm really not sure what you are looking for, but if the goal of testing is to test apps that our users use then the testers should be using the recommended software to install updates - which in this case is update-manager.  If you run into bugs with it then those should be reported.
[04:58] <bdmurray> So yes a GUI is the best option, and I'm not sure why you put it that way.
[04:59] <phillw> infinity: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/U%2B1/partial_upgrade I have no way of knowing if I use the GUI
[05:00] <phillw> s/ infinity / bdmurray
[05:00] <bdmurray> phillw: I think what you are complaining about is similar to bug 1153569
[05:01] <phillw> possibly, but for a partial upgrade it can well bork your system. Which is why they go on to length about not doing it :D
[05:01] <bdmurray> or at least resolving that bug should give more information when it fails
[05:02] <bdmurray> I'm talking about the 404 issue you were mentioning earlier, I haven't read the partial upgrade page.
[05:03] <phillw> bdmurray: I usually have to run apt-get update twice to have it happy, before I issue the apt-get dis-upgrade.
[05:04] <phillw> I've got a crappy <narrow>band link, which can drop out at times
[05:04] <phillw> *dist-upgrade*
[05:05] <bdmurray> I'm headed off
[05:06] <phillw> is 06:05 here, I've turned off the ppa from chad miller for chromium and the wallch one. I'll have a play after some sleep :)
[05:07] <phillw> thank you for your time.
[07:47] <vipul_> hey!
[07:47] <vipul_> can anybody tell me the difference between kernel programming vs device drivers programming?
[09:55] <zequence> Ubuntu Studio devs would like help uploading one last package before FF. Anyone around who could assist?
[09:55] <zequence> lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings
[15:03] <xnox> zequence: is that complete branch name?
[15:03] <xnox> =)
[15:04] <OvenWerks> xnox: let me check
[15:04] <xnox> zequence: please set development focus branch, such that lp:ubuntustudio-default-settings works =)
[15:05] <xnox> OvenWerks: i guess it's lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
[15:05] <OvenWerks> yes
[15:09] <xnox> TheMuso: can you please set maintainer/driver of ubuntustudio-default-settings (and/or other ubuntustudio packages) to ~ubuntustudio-dev?
[15:30] <xnox> zequence: have you considered to apply via Developer Membership Board for upload rights to ubuntustudio packageset? it should be trivial for existing Debian Developer who upload same packages in Debian.
[15:32] <xnox> zequence: OvenWerks: done.
[15:40] <OvenWerks> xnox: Thank you
[16:16] <OvenWerks> xnox: I can see the ubuntustudio-default-settings build, but the branch does not show the commit for the release. That is the changelog in the deb differs from the changelog at the branch
[16:21] <OvenWerks> xnox: I can sync the branch if you would prefer
[16:23] <xnox> OvenWerks: pushed.
[16:24] <OvenWerks> Thank you
[16:53] <evfool> hi, does anyone know what's the target gtk+ version for saucy?
[17:07] <zequence> xnox: None of us have upload rights to anywhere at the moment, but we're working on it :)
[17:13] <xnox> evfool: current gtk+ stable, 3.8?!
[17:17] <evfool> xnox: just wanted to know as 3.10 stable will be released before the final beta, and it could've been included in saucy, but I guess then saucy will be released with 6months old gnome stack :(
[17:19] <Laney> we'll get that next time
[18:51] <ari-tczew> does have someone armel to test a package against FTBFS?
[18:51] <mlankhorst> ari-tczew: armel is only for precise
[18:51] <infinity> (and quantal)
[18:53] <ari-tczew> ok, does have someone armhf?
[18:53] <infinity> Well, I have both.  But maybe it would help if you pointed someone at the diff/fix?
[18:53] <infinity> Some of us can identify if it'll fix the problem even without compiling.
[18:54] <ari-tczew> infinity: I'd like to test libopenraw from Debian
[18:54] <ari-tczew> if builds fine on armhf, I'd like to sync it
[18:55] <infinity> Erm, why?
[18:55] <infinity> Ours is already fixed.
[18:57] <infinity> ari-tczew: We get exactly nothing out of syncing it, nothing's changed except the symbols files and ours are already correct.
[18:58] <ari-tczew> infinity: if package builds fine (from Debian on saucy) we don't need to take a look again in the next cycle
[18:58] <infinity> ari-tczew: Note that "we" is "me", since it's on my merge list.
[18:59] <infinity> And I do actually look at my merge list.  Even when helpful people decide they know better. :P
[19:00] <ari-tczew> infinity: hmmm I didn't notice that you're the last uploader
[19:01] <ari-tczew> but in DIF asking the last uploader of merge is not necessary
[19:01] <ari-tczew> after DIF *
[19:01] <infinity> Err, wut?
[19:01] <infinity> Who on earth told you that?
[19:01] <ari-tczew> infinity: ScottK
[19:02] <infinity> DIF is a freeze.  Restrictions are tighter, not looser.
[19:02] <infinity> It's Debian Import Freeze, not Debian Import Free-for-all.
[19:03] <ari-tczew> infinity: so you mean every contributor should ask always for every sync/merge last uploader?
[19:03] <ari-tczew> of I can?
[19:03] <ari-tczew> or *
[19:03] <stgraber> TIL always applies
[19:03] <infinity> It's generally not a bad idea to ask the last uploader.
[19:04] <stgraber> there are obvious cases where it doesn't (no change rebuilds, ...) but those are as I said, obvious, so if it's not obvious, ask the last uploader
[19:04] <infinity> In some cases, a sync-over-last-bugfix is "obvious" and if you've tested it thoroughly, not a big deal.  But you'd better be positive that the only delta you're dropping is now upstream.
[19:04] <ari-tczew> infinity: I'm preparing syncs/merges since 1 month and you're the first person which have a problem with that
[19:04] <stgraber> especially when it's someone as active as infinity who will be able to give you a go/no-go within minutes (or even seconds)
[19:04] <infinity> (I've lost far too many of my patches to people who sync because 1/3 of my patches got upstream)
[19:05] <infinity> Honestly, I'm still not sure who decided that "doing other people's merges" was a sane way to contribute. :/
[19:06] <stgraber> and doing merges/syncs after DIF is usually a very bad idea as the potential for regressions/new issues is pretty high with those. So unless you're very familar with a package (in which case you're likely to be the TIL anyway), it's best to wait till the next cycle.
[19:06] <infinity> ari-tczew: Maybe I'm just the first one to be outwardly annoyed by it? :P
[19:08] <ari-tczew> if we cannot sync/merge package when that can only last uploader, always will be slowly updated/upgraded
[19:09] <infinity> ari-tczew: If the TIL person isn't responsive, by all means, hijack away.  We don't have a concept of package *ownership* in Ubuntu, but we still have a sense of politeness and an understanding of domain expertise.
[19:09] <infinity> For instance, the person who offered to merge dpkg for me was given a firm "no". :P
[19:09] <infinity> But at least he asked.
[19:11] <ari-tczew> infinity: so I've got wrong info and I need to clear it with the person who told me that
[19:11] <ari-tczew> anyway, infinity, you're the first with problem about that
[19:11] <stgraber> ari-tczew: not having the latest version of a given package isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when it's because the domain expert is too busy with other things. If you'd merge the package for him, he'd likely have to deal with the bugs, which he probably wouldn't have time to do and Ubuntu would just end up being more buggy (albeit with a new shiny verison of a broken package)
[19:14] <infinity> (Granted, this sync is a bad example of the above, but it's still nice to ask, or to not bother with a pointless no-op sync that just creates churn)
[19:17] <ari-tczew> stgraber: ok, maybe we should attach a mail to a sync/merge request with confirmation that last uploader gives ACK for this one
[19:18] <infinity> ari-tczew: FWIW, the new openraw builds on armhf, but Debian's symbols file is a complete mess, and it only builds because he's slack on his makeshlibs failure mode.  I'll probably submit a better patch later (but keep it forked for now).
[19:19] <infinity> Anyhow, there's no point in syncing it.  The software itself hasn't changed at all.
[19:19] <ari-tczew> infinity: ok, that's why I asked
[19:19] <stgraber> ari-tczew: let's not add extra paperwork. Either you have the ok and you file the bug, or you don't and you don't. If you do the work without asking first, I'd expect the sponsor to get in touch with the TIL and depending on his mood, just ignore your work entirely.
[19:20] <stgraber> (because it always takes longer to review a merge than do it from scratch, so for my packages, I just ignore people doing the merge for me and I'll do it myself from scratch when I actually have time for that stuff)
[19:22] <ari-tczew> if the people make a]
[19:22] <ari-tczew> make packages better from scratch instead a merge, why we work closes with Debian?
[19:22] <infinity> That's now what he meant.
[19:23] <ari-tczew> now we are going to point that merging  and syncing don't make sense
[19:23] <infinity> He meant it's easier for a reviewer to just do a merge themselves than to review a merge.
[19:24] <infinity> Merges come in two flavours: 1) trivial merges that I can do in about 5 seconds.  Sponsoring someone else's saves me no time there.  2) Very complex merges that can take hours.  The only way to review one of those is to do it myself, and compare the output.  At which point, I've just re-done what you did.
[19:26] <ari-tczew> infinity: and what's your point? you don't like to sponsor someone else?
[19:26] <stgraber> no, his point is that sponsoring merges is a bad idea and that this work is better left to the TIL
[19:26] <stgraber> who will be able to do it in a fraction of the time and have it done correctly the first time around
[19:27] <infinity> I'd much rather sponsor bugfix patches and such.  Things where the contributor had to put in real effort that I wasn't going to or didn't have time to.
[19:27] <stgraber> whereas doing the work for the TIL, only forces him to do it NOW to review your work, so then you've had two people do the merge which means you either wasted your time, or the TIL's time
[19:27] <infinity> If you look at my history of sponsored uploads, you'll be hard pressed to find merges in there.  Just sayin'.
[19:29] <ari-tczew> stgraber, infinity: do you believe that every contributor asks last uploader before prepare/upload a merge?
[19:29]  * infinity grumbles at fixing corosync and sheepdog and still not managing to get libcorosync4 safe on the NBS list, and squints harder to find the cause.
[19:29] <infinity> ari-tczew: I don't believe everyone does, and you're not the only one I've asked to do so.
[19:30] <infinity> ari-tczew: Do you believe everyone asks before stabbing their parents in the face?  What others do should have no bearing.
[19:30] <stgraber> ari-tczew: I know not everyone does it because I fairly often have to remind people about it, it's no excuse not to do so though.
[19:31] <infinity> ari-tczew: There's also something to be said for knowing the people you're messing with.  As much as we'd like to pretend otherwise, not everyone is the same, and relationships matter.
[19:32] <infinity> ari-tczew: For instance, despite being a core-dev, I tend to ask before I do evil things to KDE packages.  But if I wanted to mangle one of stgraber's packages, I'd just do it because we work closely together and he'd hunt me down and smack me in the kneecaps if it annoyed him.
[19:32] <infinity> ari-tczew: Until you're sure you have the latter relationship with the people who might be irked by your actions, it's always safer to assume the arm's-length stranger relationship and be polite.
[19:35] <ari-tczew> if there is a clear sync - small delta forwarded to Debian and applied there, do I have to ask last uploader, as well?
[19:37] <Ampelbein> ari-tczew: I'd consider it polite to ask, yes. Maybe the last uploader holds off on uploading on purpose because he has other changes in the queue. A small "Hey XXX, mind if I sync libfoo from debian?" doesn't cost much time.
[19:37] <stgraber> if you can build on all architectures and confirm the rest is absolutely identical to what's in the archive, syncing is probably fine without asking. However there are cases where we don't want to automatically sync from Debian, and doing a sync would bypass that, so it's always better to ask (and only takes a minute, so why not do it?)
[19:39] <ari-tczew> stgraber: +1 for 1st sentence
[19:40] <ari-tczew> stgraber: 2nd sentence: there is a blacklist for archive, right?
[19:40] <infinity> ari-tczew: We only blacklist things we NEVER want to sync, not temporary "we're holding at this version on purpose" things.
[19:46] <infinity> Oh, thanks launchpad, publishing two versions of libcorosync4 is exactly what I wanted you to do.
[19:46]  * infinity headdesks.
[19:49] <ari-tczew> infinity: so in that case please leave a comment on MoM "don't merge 0.1.2-3"
[19:49] <ari-tczew> or sync, nevermind
[19:50] <Ampelbein> Or just ask the TIL to give the ok.
[19:53] <infinity> Sweetsha1k: Did you really mean to drop python-uno but keep half of libreoffice depending on it?
[20:01] <ari-tczew> Ampelbein: if TIL doesn't response, what's next?
[20:04] <Ampelbein> ari-tczew: If there is no response in a reasonable timeframe (I'd say 1 week for non-critical stuff, less for more severe issues), carefully check a) the bugs in LP, b) the bugs in debian for new issues, c) possibly the vcs the debian developer is using (some ubuntu uploaders work with their debian upstreams).
[20:05] <Ampelbein> ari-tczew: And then if you are sure that everything works, upload to Ubuntu. Unlike me, who uploads his own package to Ubuntu and only then notices a FTBFS in Ubuntu.
[20:06] <ari-tczew> ok
[20:10] <ari-tczew> Ampelbein: if there is a merge which is available since e.g. half year, should do I ask?
[20:10] <ari-tczew> (or more)
[20:12] <Ampelbein> ari-tczew: Use some common sense. Is the TIL otherwise active in Debian/Ubuntu? Is it something critical or just a minor fix for a spelling mistake in the manpage?
[20:13] <infinity> ari-tczew: There may always be a reason for an outstanding merge.  Age doesn't mean much.
[20:13] <infinity> ari-tczew: (My dpkg merge is a month old now, and there's definitely a valid reason I haven't merged it, for instance)
[20:13] <ari-tczew> Ampelbein: I'm just asking theoretically
[20:14] <infinity> I'd like to think, of course, that in the case of dpkg, a sponsor would shut you down if you tried to merge it, but still worth asking so you don't waste your time.
[20:14] <Ampelbein> ari-tczew: I can't give you a definite answer (I believe noone can). In any case, if a merge is 6 months old, it doesn' hurt to ask the TIL and wait another week for an ok.
[20:15] <Ampelbein> There are literally tens of thousands of bugs open, you can work on any of those while waiting ;-)
[20:17] <ari-tczew> Ampelbein: I'd like just to clean out outstanding merges from trivial syncs and then to ship new upstream releases (now it's quite too late, only a few days are remaining to FFe)
[20:21] <Ampelbein> ari-tczew: I understand that. But there are few situations where waiting a week is hurting.
[21:09] <xnox> ari-tczew: i didn't read a whole scrollback, but essentially working especially on finding (a) packages that can now be synced (b) "pointless merges" (e.g. debian changes email, bumps standards version, etc. without actually fixing any bugs) doesn't bring any visible benefit to Ubuntu. Because the reason why sync is now possible is most likely because the person who TIL forwaded the changes to debian and they got accepted there, so TIL person will no
[21:09] <xnox> tice it.
[21:10] <xnox> ari-tczew: (b) will cause a package rebuild, bump version, but again there is no benefit to the user, that "Standards-Version" is now the latest.
[21:12] <xnox> ari-tczew: it's better to for example focus on fixing bugs in highest crashing apps: https://errors.ubuntu.com/?release=Ubuntu%2013.10&period=year or for example focusing on fixing otherwise high priority bugs for packages of your interest.
[21:13] <xnox> or looking at the merges list, and seeing/identifying which patches (a) make sense to be in debian (b) haven't been forwarded to debian yet. And doing modifications / forwarding patches to debian sensibly.
[21:13] <xnox> "Getting packages in sync" with debian is ubuntu goal. But it means "actually do the work, prepare patches against debian package, test it & send to debian". Rather then filing "requestsync bugs and/or doing syncpackage" that's just a minor last step.
[21:14] <xnox> ari-tczew: Fixing these http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ is also a good way to contribute to ubuntu.


[14:00] <Linden940> I had some small items I had to go work
[14:00] <Linden940> I think  i would not been as sick for as long as I have been if i took some time off to sleep and get better but I had to many things that had to get done


[21:09] <bobbo> Now we have the "trunk" branch of Terminator. This is where the core authors of the project put most of their bugfixes etc, but most large feature changes are done outside of trunk, in their own special branches
[21:10] <bobbo> This lets developers make large changes to the code, without breaking the main project code
[21:11] <bobbo>  <james_w> if you grabbed a checkout of terminator in the last session then "cd terminator" and run "bzr unbind" and you will be in the same state as from bobbo's talk <-- Do that :P
[21:11] <bobbo> Right everyone in a (working) Terminator trunk directory?
[21:11] <meastp> How can you merge, or rather copy changes between trunk and, say, a stable serie?
[21:11] <meastp> yes
[21:11] <Tonio__> yep
[21:11] <alucardni> done bobbo
[21:11] <NetSKaVeN> yep
[21:12] <bobbo> OK, so now we are going to merge in another branch
[21:12] <bobbo> this is based on Terminator trunk, but instead of implementing all the bugfixes etc going into the main project, this branches author has decided to implement a shiny new feature
[21:13] <bobbo> So now we run "bzr merge lp:~richiek/terminator/altctrlwin-num_tab_change" to try and merge the new branch into our copy of trunk
[21:14] <bobbo> Once this has completed it should give you a message like:
[21:14] <bobbo>    1 conflicts encountered.
[21:14] <bobbo> This means that bzr tried to automatically merge the two branches together, but since the new author branched terminators trunk, a change has been made (in trunk) that conflicts with the new code (in the branch).
[21:14] <bobbo> (I could have worded that a little better, everyone understanding?)
[21:15] <NetSKaVeN> yeah
[21:15] <johnsgruber> got it
[21:15] <patrickd_> yup
[21:15] <lobo-ptr> sure, go on
[21:15] <meastp> yes
[21:15] <bobbo> So lets go fix the conflict. Run:
[21:15] <Tonio__> okk
[21:15] <bobbo>     bzr conflicts
[21:15] <bobbo> This will show you where all the conflicts in the source tree are. It should say "terminatorlib/terminator.py", so lets edit it and find where the conflict is.
[21:15] <bobbo>     gedit terminatorlib/terminator.py
[21:15] <bobbo> The conflict can be found in between these markers (around line 865):
[21:15] <bobbo>     <<<<<<< TREE
[21:15] <bobbo>     [21:15] <bobbo>     >>>>>>> MERGE-SOURCE
[21:15] <bobbo>
[21:15] <bobbo> everything above the ='s and below <<<<<<< TREE is what is currently in the trunk and everything below the ='s and above >>>>>>> MERGE-SOURCE is what is currently in the branch you are merging
[21:16] <bobbo> I wont show you completely how to manually merge these, because that requires knowledge of the application and libraries etc. and each merge is different so there is no real need,
[21:16] <bobbo> But basically you have to work out a way for those two piece of code to co-exist, in a way that doesnt cause the application to explode, but also implement the new feature or bugfix in the branch
[21:17] <bobbo> So for educational purposes, lets just pretend that we have managed to fix the conflict and are now ready to commit our merge
[21:17] <bobbo> First off we need to tell bazaar we have actuall fixed the conflict, otherwise it wont let us commit the merge
[21:18] <bobbo> run "bzr resolve terminatorlib/terminator.py" to tell bzr that everything is fixed.
[21:19] <bobbo> we would need to repeat the above process for every file that has merge conflicts in it, so merging big patches, after big patches have been applied in trunk can be a little messy and time consuming
[21:19] <bobbo> finally we need to commit the merge to our copy of trunk: bzr commit -m "Merged in lp:~richiek/terminator/altctrlwin-num_tab_change"
[21:20] <bobbo> congratulations! You just completed your first bzr merge!
[21:20] <bobbo> anyone need any time to catch up?
[21:20] <meastp> no
[21:20] <NetSKaVeN> all ok here
[21:20] <Tonio__> ok for me too
[21:21] <bobbo> right, onto section 2: Tagging!
[21:21] <Megaqwerty> I'm ready
[21:21] <bobbo> QUESTION:how can bazaar tell that two sections of code are in conflict ( and will actually break the software) ?
[21:22] <meastp> ( I'm sorry, I am new to classroom sessions... Am I allowed to ask questions related somewhat to what we are currently doing, or are these 'tutorial' sessions only? )
[21:22] <bobbo> x_dimitri: I am not sure how it works in the internals of bazaar, but it must check whether the branch and the trunk have changed the same pieces of code
[21:23] <LarstiQ> bobbo: could you repeat x_dimitri's question?
[21:23] <bobbo> x_dimitri: it would probably be a good idea to ask a developer about how it works inside bazaar, because it must be pretty complex (as in I dont know, sorry)
[21:23] <bobbo> LarstiQ:  QUESTION:how can bazaar tell that two sections of code are in conflict ( and will actually break the software) ?
[21:23] <bobbo> meastp: ask away, though I cant be sure i'll know the answer :D
[21:24] <x_dimitri> ok
[21:24] <gourgi> meastp: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat for questions
[21:24] <bobbo> OK, section 2: Tagging!
[21:24] <meastp> bobbo: I was told to join the ubuntu-classrom-chat... no worries :)
[21:25] <bobbo> Bazaar has a useful feature, called tagging, which lets you give a commit to a branch a sensible, human understandable name like "0.2.0-release" or "fixes-bug-375838". This is can be used for tagging releases, release candidates, or whenever you are going to need to easily find a revision number.
[21:25] <bobbo> i think svn and other "traditional" VCS's have tagging of some sort too, but I have never had the pleasure of working with them, so wouldnt really know :)
[21:26] <bobbo> So lets try this out in our Terminator branch. You can add a tag to a branch very easily using "bzr tag":
[21:26] <bobbo>     bzr tag "test-tag"
[21:26] <bobbo> This will give the latest revision (the last one committed to the branch) the tag "test-tag".
[21:27] <bobbo> you can delete tags using:
[21:27] <bobbo>     bzr tag --delete test-tag
[21:27] <bobbo> To tag an already existing revision we can use:
[21:28] <bobbo>     bzr tag -r 123 "release-0.1a"
[21:28] <bobbo> This tags revision 123 with the tag "release-0.1a"
 QUESTION: can you delete any tag or only the last?
[21:29] <bobbo> You can delete any tag, but it wont delete the revision, just the tagging of that revision
[21:30] <bobbo> it is also possible to give a revision more than one tag
 QUESTION: Is possible to list the existing tags? how?
[21:30] <bobbo> yes, running "bzr tags" gives you a full list of all the current tags in the branch
 QUESTION:  Can you easily retrieve stable revision identifiers from bzr that are consistent between branches and merges?
[21:31] <bobbo> mbt: Sorry, I have never tried it, so I'm not sure
[21:31] <LarstiQ> mbt: yes, bzr revision ids are stable
[21:31] <bobbo> It is also possible to revert to a revision using its tag, for example:
[21:31] <LarstiQ> mbt: you can see them in log for example with bzr --show-ids log
[21:32] <LarstiQ> mbt: and use them with revid:, so bzr diff -r revid:<your revid here>
[21:32] <bobbo>     bzr revert -r tag:release-0.1a
 Hi, I have recently added my project to lp, with bzr. Currently I have a trunk, and branches for features. But how should I manage releases? E.g if I branch trunk as 1.0 and add to the 1.0 series, how should I keep trunk and the 1.0 series' bugfixes synchronised (with bzr)?
[21:33] <bobbo> meastp: the way I do it (may not be the best or most efficient way but it works) is to have have the release-1.0 branched from trunk, put all bugfixes etc into trunk and then merge them into the release-1.0 branch (does that make sense?)
[21:34] <bobbo> The beauty of bazaar is that you can have release-1.0 specific code in the release branch, but also be able to pull in changes from trunk when they are needed
[21:34] <bobbo> meastp: does that answer your question?
[21:35] <bobbo> For even more on reading tagging in Bazaar check out http://bazaar-vcs.org/Specs/Tagging
 QUESTION: I have made some uggly modifications and put my hown tag and then commit all that stuff and its ok. But I am not logged to the launchpad. So what does commit exactly ?
[21:36] <meastp> bobbo: yes, thanks... I'm a bit confused by this workflow. Will look at the link, thanks
[21:36] <bobbo> Commit in bzr works completely differently to committing in svn or cvs.
[21:37] <bobbo> IN bazaar, "commit" puts revisions into the local branch (which is sitting on your HD or pen drive)
[21:37] <bobbo> You need to "push" them onto launchpad (using bzr push) before they will show up there
[21:38] <bobbo> Tonio__: is that what you were looking for?
[21:38] <Tonio__> bobbo: Thanks it's clear for me (I am a SVN user)
[21:39] <bobbo> Tonio__: yeah, it is one of the biggest confusing things for svn users when they come to bzr, the same words meaning almost completely different things :D
[21:39] <bobbo> Right Section 3 : Extensibility and Modules
[21:40] <bobbo> On the best things about bazaar (IMO) is that it is very easily extensible.
[21:40] <bobbo> It is very simple to plug in your own functionalities to the system
[21:41] <bobbo> There are hundreds of plugins, ranging from useful little tools like creating diffstats (little "graphical" representations of a patch that at a glance tell you how much the patch is changing) to  big complex things like adding dbus or rsync support
[21:42] <bobbo> There are also several plugins that help you integrate with other version control systems
[21:43] <bobbo> including support for importing SVN branches into bzr, which is always very handy when you already have existing project infrastructure that you want to move over to bzr
[21:44] <bobbo> There is a huge big list of plugins on the bazaar website at http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrPlugins
[21:45] <bobbo> Most of these will be installable via a setup.py file shipped in their source tar.gz, but if you dont fancy doing that, Debian/Ubuntu also has several (more important) bzr plugins packaged up and in the repositories
[21:45] <bobbo> You can see a list of these at http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=default&section=all&arch=any&searchon=names&keywords=bzr-
[21:45] <bobbo> As with all software in the repos, you can just run "suo apt-get install bzr-rebase" and have rebasing support in bazaar
[21:46] <bobbo> Well thats pretty much all I planned for. Are the any questions?
 QUESTION: What's rebasing ?
[21:47] <bobbo> Rebasing is the process of taking a branch and modifying the history so that it appears to start from a different point
[21:48] <bobbo> This can be useful to clean up the history before submitting your changes. The tree at the end of the process will be the same as if you had merged the other branch, but the history will be different.
[21:48] <apagano> exit
[21:48] <bobbo> You can read more about it at http://bazaar-vcs.org/Rebase
[21:49] <apagano> quit
[21:49] <bobbo> Anymore questions?
[21:49] <bobbo> nope? Looks like we can all get away early then!
[21:49] <bobbo> thanks for listening!
[21:50] <NetSKaVeN> great session bobbo
[21:50] <gQuigs> thank you bobbo
[21:50] <johnsgruber> Thanks much
[21:50] <lobo-ptr> thanks
[21:50] <gourgi> thank you bobbo
[21:50] <alucardni> thanks bobbo
[21:50] <biomass> thanks bobbo
[21:50] <Tonio__> Thanks bobbo
[21:50] <james_w> thanks bobbo
[21:50] <bobbo> thanks alot guys :D
[21:51] <weboide> thanks bobbo
[21:51] <pugliamix> hi everybody - seems I came too late
[21:51] <WastePotato> What did I miss?
[21:51] <WastePotato> Can someone pastebin it for me?
[21:52] <cyphermox> WatePotato: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs, all the logs will be there eventually.
[21:53] <Megaqwerty> WastePotato: http://paste2.org/p/96434
[21:53] <WastePotato> Thanks. :)
[22:36] <emma> I have a question/comment about the Ubuntu Open Week directed to whomever it may concern: First thanks for putting it on. It's fabulous and I wish I could attend just about every event. Having said this, could the next Ubuntu Open Week be held at a more diverse spread of hours? As it is, I think most working people in the western hemisphere will not be able to see many of the events, because 15:00 UTC = 10:00 am on the east coast, which means ...
[22:36] <emma> ... most people are at work.
[22:43] <mrooney> emma: well, that just means those people can't ask questions in real-time. You can view it later and ask a question in advance
[22:43] <mrooney> and you could certainly ask the host any questions you have later via IRC or email, I imagine
[22:43] <emma> Okay.
[22:44] <mrooney> But I can see where having it "live" is more fun and interactive
[22:44] <emma> Yes.
[22:44] <mrooney> I think jcastro is perhaps the person to ping for this event
[22:44] <jcastro> It's hard to pick a time when you're trying to hold an event for everyone
[22:45] <jcastro> we try to do the best we can to fit in a time that is best for everyone
[22:45] <emma> Yes of course.
[22:45] <emma> There's no way to please everyone, every event. That's for sure.
[22:45] <Upayavira> Ubuntu isn't the only open source org that tends to pick that timeframe
[22:45] <emma> Maybe each UOW could vary or perhaps different days could be for the western hemisphere users.
[22:45] <jcastro> if I were drowning in people who want to run sessions so we could run one in europe, one in asia, etc. that would be ideal
[22:45] <jcastro> but we don't
[22:46] <jcastro> I believe a few years ago some people in germany ran their own openweek-esque type event in their local language and time zone
[22:46] <emma> Well the main thing is what I said first there. The Ubuntu Open Week is a great idea and I really appreciate the people who put it together :)
[22:46] <jcastro> If someone were to do that kind of thing it would be great
[22:48] <emma> If they started 3 hours later that would make a difference I think.
[22:48] <bbb> nice work jorge et al
[22:48] <jcastro> thanks bbb!
[22:48] <rgreening> The presenters would need to be available at that time too. find presenters for earlier slots and then earlier sessions are possible
[22:48] <rgreening> :)
[22:48] <jcastro> yeah the problem is presenters usually
[22:48] <jcastro> not just picking a time for people
[22:48] <rgreening> hats off jcastro
[22:49] <emma> Sure I get you.
[22:49] <jcastro> It would be nice if we had enough contributors to make it a 24 hour thing around the world or something
[22:49] <jcastro> ok off to dinner, I'll ttyl
[22:49] <emma> jcastro: If you need help for the next one finding presenters, I am good at that kind of thing.
[22:49] <bbb> peace
[22:49] <jcastro> emma: okay
[23:24] <pinkeytheperky> Hi everyone


[18:12] <sem> What size should my Swap partition be on an SSD with a 25 GB / partition? top shows that I have 3652 MiB of Memory
[18:24] <sem> i found this page which helpfully has a table. It recommends 6 GB for a system with 4 GB ram if you want to support hibernation... Maybe I will forgo hibernation (because i have SSD) and use 2 GB swap
[18:49] <sem> i am going to install lubuntu 22.04 on a laptop from 2009; if it works ok, I will maybe upgrade my 20.04 partition to 22.04
[18:49] <arraybolt3> Hibernation doesn't work all that well on Linux anyway, so no great loss.
[18:49] <arraybolt3> Personally I would go with RAM compression rather than a swapfile though. Faster, less wear-and-tear on the disk.
[18:50] <arraybolt3> sem: https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/enabling-ram-compression-on-lubuntu/3323
[18:56] <sem> thanks for the tip, i'll read up on it
[18:58] <sem> What do you think about the CPU load on a 1.4 GHz dual-core cpu from 2009? Maybe I am better off with the wear-and-tear on the SDD with swap
[19:44] <arraybolt3> The CPU load of RAM compression is very minimal.
[19:44] <arraybolt3> I'm using it on an old repurposed Chromebook that I reflashed with MrChromebox firmware and installed Lubuntu on it, the CPU is quite slow and yet RAM compression doesn't hardly affect performance at all.
[19:44] <arraybolt3> sem: ^
[20:41] <sem> thanks for the tip


[15:05] <Brainstorm> Updates for Bangladesh: +11164 cases (now 1.4 million), +264 deaths (now 23161) since a day ago