[01:15] <tx> Hi guys! Anyone deployed OpenStack using MAAS before?
[01:15] <tx> Do I use the openstack installer on a controller (then openstack gets deployed on free nodes)?
[02:56] <Vertel> I'm setting up a personal server and I'm currently at the stage of setting up IPSet blocklists that automatically update from known-bad-IP lists. Is there a reason this kind of auto-update-IPSet functionality isn't built into Ubuntu server?
[04:34] <ShaRose> Vertel I don't know for ubuntu, and there's probably a better tool for it, but I found a guy's script that I use on my router to block incoming connections from countries that you could look at using. http://tomatousb.org/forum/t-605311/blocking-an-incoming-ip-address-solved-sort-of#post-1664196
[04:34] <ShaRose> you could just point it at a plaintext list of blocks, aka http://www.ipdeny.com/ipblocks/data/countries/cn.zone
[04:35] <ShaRose> Also, https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/Ubuntu-16.04-Root-on-ZFS actually works and it's wonderful.
[06:47] <sarnold> ShaRose: yeah? :) woot
[06:48] <ShaRose> yep
[06:48] <ShaRose> playing with it now to make it as non-interactive as I can atm
[06:48] <sarnold> I haven't looked at the recent instructions but the last time I looked it was more moving parts than I wanted to deal with. It's nice to hear it's coming along :)
[06:49] <ShaRose> it's still not as easy as integrating it into the actual installer, but it's not too harsh
[06:52] <thekrynn_> anyone know why screen in ubuntu doesnt give conistant times for when a screen was created?
[06:53] <ShaRose> gonna make a local mirror for it because I'm installing ubuntu so much :P
[07:15] <smb> hallyn, maybe I can try... even though I realize now that its a rather "special" setup. Normally qemu-dm is used when xend is used but then the apparmor change is moot since xend starts qemu. There was some way to force the other qemu with libxl... I think
[07:16] <sarnold> hmm I thought the thing that needed validation was a stupid lttng-5 denial silencing when using the libvirt-"lxc"?
[09:35] <rbasak> teward: sure, though if it's a merge note that it's quite hard to verify a merge without actually doing the merge.
[10:08] <jayjay> Hi, i try to install single server openstack with the openstack installer on ubuntu 14.04
[10:08] <jayjay> but the install seems to deadlock on installing keystone with "idle - hook failed: "config-changed"
[10:10] <jayjay> all services are deployed with status started except for keystone which has the status error
[10:13] <rbasak> stokachu: ^
[10:14] <rbasak> jayjay: stokachu may be able to help assuming he's in today, but based on his timezone he won't be in for a few hours.
[10:16] <jayjay> tnx rbasak
[10:33] <m1dnight_> I have a system user for a service and I want to execute a script as that user but ubuntu is asking me for a password.
[10:33] <m1dnight_> But I don't have one..?
[10:38] <vagarwal_> is there a way to change static ip in Ubuntu 16.04 without a reboot? networking.service restart and interface shutdown/start is not helping
[11:06] <rbasak> vagarwal_: ifdown, edit /etc/network/interfaces, then ifup.
[11:06] <rbasak> (which you need to do locally or very carefully in a screen or something)
[11:11] <vagarwal_> rbasak: that is not working
[11:12] <vagarwal_> has anyone not encountered this yet?
[11:12] <degorenko> jamespage, hi, i found issue with openvswitch package, can you help? :)
[11:13] <jamespage> degorenko, maybe whats the problem?
[11:13] <degorenko> jamespage, it is again related to our puppet xenial jobs. So, the problem is incorrect service status report
[11:13] <degorenko> i tried to file bug on ubuntu, but got some launchpad error :(
[11:16] <jamespage> going to need a bit more detail...
[11:16] <degorenko> jamespage, yes, sure, sec
[11:17] <Jakey3> him are linux containers completely separate?
[11:17] <Jakey3> to the same extent of 2 vms
[11:17] <Jakey3> ?
[11:17] <degorenko> jamespage, for example http://paste.openstack.org/show/498579/
[11:17] <Jakey3> *hi,
[11:19] <jamespage> degorenko, what does "sudo service openvswitch-nonetwork status" say?
[11:19] <degorenko> jamespage, same :) let me sec
[11:20] <degorenko> http://paste.openstack.org/show/498580/
[11:21] <degorenko> jamespage, just fyi, looks like this issue with wrong report comes from 12.04, because we have this commit to vswitch module: https://github.com/openstack/puppet-vswitch/commit/be49bd301f6649950d9cc5bb08ee68a293d7058a Jan 15, 2013 :)
[11:23] <degorenko> jamespage, and here is report when service is running http://paste.openstack.org/show/498581/
[11:44] <coreycb> jamespage, I'm bumping neutron-lib to 0.2.0, I think that will fix the newton neutron failure
[11:46] <degorenko> jamespage, i have some network troubles, if you answered on my last message please repeat :)
[12:02] <tjahneee> Hello, i have a question about accessing files on a windows share. i have mounted a network share on /mnt/share with cifs in /etc/fstab. I have configured this with a read-only account from our active directory for extra security. Now i want to read those files with a php application for copying them to the local webserver path. Now i have the problem that i can't can give read access to those files for user www-data because it is read-only.
[12:02] <tjahneee> The files are now only accessible with the root user. is there a way such with ln to make a link with read permission for a another user? Sorry for my bad english.
[12:24] <encod3> Hi! I'm using Ubuntu 14.04LTS and I can't get access to some ports from the exterior. The ports are listed as listening when using "netstat -ltpn", however nmap reports them as closed.
[12:24] <encod3> other ports, running the same kind of app, are accessible and listed the same way using "netstat -ltpn", but this time reported as open using nmap
[12:25] <encod3> both apps are using <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:25] <encod3> any ideas on what I am missing?
[12:31] <NetworkingPro> yo everyone
[12:32] <m1dnight_> Are there apps running on the ports, encod3 ?
[12:32] <m1dnight_> Oh yeah, they are listening. nvm.
[12:32] <m1dnight_> Do you have ufw or something installed?
[12:33] <encod3> m1dnight_: it is installed but disabled, iptables is also disabled
[12:33] <m1dnight_> Switch ports with a working application, see what that tells you.
[12:33] <m1dnight_> Im a noob as well :>
[12:37] <stokachu> jayjay: yea I think there is an issue with our keystone revision
[12:38] <stokachu> jayjay: this on single install?
[12:43] <six86> Hello. I have a problem with preseeding in 16.04. I used my preseed in 12.04 and it worked fine. With the upgrade, preseeding results in a crippled ubuntu-server where for example "man" or "nano" are missing. The system is not complete anymore.
[12:43] <six86> Has something changed in preseeding, maybe in tasksel?
[12:53] <jayjay> @stokachu, yes single install
[12:54] <stokachu> jayjay: ok, run openstack-juju resolved rabbitmq-server/0; openstack-juju upgrade-charm rabbitmq-server
[12:54] <jayjay> stokachu: i only tried the single install
[12:55] <stokachu> I think we need to update the revisions
[12:55] <jayjay> should i run that in the container?
[12:58] <stokachu> no from your laptop
[12:58] <jayjay> ok
[12:58] <jayjay> http://pastie.org/10850469
[12:59] <stokachu> jayjay: why did you put sudo in front?
[13:00] <jayjay> i also did it without :)
[13:00] <jayjay> same output
[13:01] <stokachu> do you know how to do it within the container?
[13:01] <jayjay> yes
[13:01] <stokachu> ok try that
[13:01] <stokachu> just use juju
[13:01] <jayjay> done
[13:01] <jayjay> what should i juju?
[13:02] <jayjay> oh sorry
[13:02] <jayjay> i dont know what to do in the container
[13:03] <stokachu> export JUJU_HOME=~/.cloud-install
[13:03] <stokachu> then
[13:03] <stokachu> juju resolved rabbitmq-server/0
[13:03] <stokachu> juju upgrade-charm rabbitmq-server
[13:05] <jayjay> hmm, ERROR no environment specified
[13:06] <stokachu> are u inside the container?
[13:06] <jayjay> I did the lxc-attach -n openstack-single-username thing
[13:07] <jayjay> yes
[13:07] <stokachu> yea that's it
[13:07] <jayjay> user ubuntu?
[13:07] <stokachu> yea
[13:08] <stokachu> I'll have to help you more after lunch im on my phone atm
[13:08] <jayjay> np, thanks so far
[13:08] <stokachu> np it'll probably be 2-3 hours but I'll get you going
[13:09] <jayjay> great
[13:16] <guruprasad> I use Ubuntu server vagrant images a lot. I just downloaded the official xenial64 vagrant box and it doesn't look like the virtualbox guest additions are installed.
[13:16] <guruprasad> Known issue?
[13:27] <rbasak> Odd_Bloke: ^
[13:28] <rbasak> (not sure if that's your department or not?)
[13:45] <Odd_Bloke> rbasak: It is. :)
[13:46] <Odd_Bloke> guruprasad: Could you check if there's a bug already at https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-images and, if not, file one, please? :)
[13:46] <Odd_Bloke> rbasak: (Thanks!)
[13:52] <guruprasad> Odd_Bloke: There is already a bug for this https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-images/+bug/1565985
[14:14] <hallyn> smb: ok well otherwise ask the bug reporter again to verify.
[14:14] <hallyn> i've got more srus on my list to push out :)
[14:15] <smb> hallyn, they cannot verify because they don't use *that* version of libvirt
[14:16] <smb> hallyn, proposed libvirt 1.2.2-0ubuntu13 - they use 1.2.12-0ubuntu14.2~cloud0
[14:21] <smb> hallyn, actually not sure you did see the email I just sent you which explains a bit more... :)
[15:04] <John[Lisbeth]> I've got this old compaq that I am setting up just to display htop through ssh, and I am running into a problem where the tty windows on it keep turning off to save power, and I would like to disable this feature.
[15:04] <John[Lisbeth]> I am not sure which part of the os is responsible.
[15:11] <stokachu> jayjay: ok im back
[15:11] <Pici> John[Lisbeth]: what release of Ubuntu?
[15:12] <Pici> John[Lisbeth]: you can change it via setterm --blank 0          (might also need --powersave off)
[15:14] <John[Lisbeth]> I think it's ubuntu 16.04 server
[15:14] <John[Lisbeth]> I'll try that and then we'll wait and see if it turns off
[15:19] <terje> hi, I'm using vm-builder to create some VM's. I notice that in a trusty guest, the first nic is named eth0 and all is well.
[15:20] <terje> with a xenial guest, the nic is em1.
[15:21] <terje> I have to mount the qcow and change it manually
[15:21] <terje> possible to specify a nic name in vm-builder?
[16:18] <jayjay> stokachu: im here too :)
[16:18] <stokachu> jayjay: cool, you back inside the container?
[16:19] <jayjay> yes
[16:20] <jayjay>  su - ubuntu
[16:21] <stokachu> jayjay: do you have a ~/.cloud-install/juju directory?
[16:21] <stokachu> jayjay: i actually told you wrong earlier, it should be `export JUJU_HOME=~/.cloud-install/juju`
[16:22] <jayjay> thats better :)
[16:22] <jayjay> juju status is now working :)
[16:22] <stokachu> jayjay: ok do juju ssh rabbitmq-server/0
[16:23] <stokachu> jayjay: sudo apt install pastebinit; pastebinit /var/log/juju/unit-rabbitmq-server-0.log
[16:24] <jayjay> http://pastie.org/10850671
[16:25] <stokachu> jayjay: whats in /var/log/juju/?
[16:25] <jayjay> http://pastie.org/10850673
[16:26] <stokachu> hmm, unit-rabbitmq-server-0.log
[16:26] <stokachu> thats the one i want to look at
[16:28] <JamieDimon> Is it safe to install systemd on Ubuntu 14.04 trusty?
[16:28] <jayjay> one moment
[16:36] <jayjay> its a big file
[16:36] <jayjay> what do you want to know
[16:36] <jayjay> or should i share the complete file?
[16:38] <stokachu> jayjay: mainly looking for any tracebacks
[16:38] <stokachu> python tracebacks
[16:43] <jayjay> https://ssw.solcon.nl/qdisk/download/4998379595744848c1094c11261624911975
[16:43] <jayjay> this is the log file
[16:51] <jayjay> stokachu: can you see something in the file?
[16:51] <stokachu> one sec
[16:55] <stokachu> jayjay: i dont see where rabbitmq is reporting an error?
[16:55] <stokachu> jayjay: says its active and ready
[16:56] <jayjay> stokachu: i quit the installer
[16:57] <stokachu> jayjay: thats ok juju is setup in the background
[16:57] <jayjay> kyestone still reports idle hook failed
[16:57] <jayjay> config-changed
[16:58] <stokachu> jayjay: oh.. right
[16:58] <stokachu> jayjay: ugh sorry why did i think it was rabbitmq
[16:58] <stokachu> jayjay: can you send me the unit-keystone-0 log?
[16:58] <jayjay> lol
[16:58] <stokachu> theres been this ipv6 issue with rabbitmq
[17:03] <jayjay> stokachu: https://ssw.solcon.nl/qdisk/download/972592784574489333c04f81492838714575
[17:05] <stokachu> looking
[17:06] <jayjay> ERROR juju-log FATAL ERROR: Could not determine OpenStack codename for version 8.1
[17:06] <jayjay> INFO worker.uniter.jujuc server.go:172 running hook tool "juju-log" ["-l" "ERROR" "FATAL ERROR: Could not determine OpenStack codename for version 8.1"]
[17:07] <stokachu> yea just saw that
[17:07] <stokachu> hmm
[17:07] <stokachu> jamespage: what was ^ from again?
[17:08] <stokachu> jayjay: https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms/+source/keystone/+bug/1572358
[17:09] <stokachu> jayjay: what does juju status keystone give you?
[17:12] <jayjay> stokachu: http://pastie.org/private/wk1ovfwaprvdcc3yikra
[17:15] <jayjay> stokachu: so its a known bug
[17:15] <stokachu> jayjay: checking the revision you have versus the latest
[17:16] <stokachu> jayjay: so juju resolved keystone/0; juju upgrade-charm keystone
[17:17] <jayjay> Added charm "cs:trusty/keystone-255" to the environment.
[17:17] <stokachu> jayjay: see if the error still occurs
[17:17] <stokachu> jayjay: it should reinitialize itself
[17:18] <stokachu> jayjay: you'll probably want to do that to all the charms deployed
[17:20] <jayjay> keystone is started now :)
[17:20] <stokachu> jayjay: cool yea, for some reason you're running some older charm revisions
[17:20] <stokachu> jayjay: not sure why though as we pull from the latest
[17:21] <jayjay> stokachu: awesome
[17:21] <stokachu> jayjay: you'll want to run openstack-status again to make sure neutron gets setup
[17:22] <jayjay> stokachu: yes, keystone is still complaining about ports which should be open but are not
[17:23] <stokachu> jayjay: can you post an updated unit-keystone-0.log file?
[17:24] <jayjay> stokachu: yes, one moment
[17:30] <jayjay> stokachu: cant find the /var/log/juju direcotry anymore
[17:30] <jayjay> am i missing something?
[17:30] <stokachu> did you juju ssh keystone/0?
[17:31] <jayjay> :):)
[17:31] <jayjay> there it is :)
[17:31] <jayjay> i was sleeping
[17:35] <jayjay> stokachu: https://ssw.solcon.nl/qdisk/download/1552257545574490d7721ad56293922517332
[17:36] <stokachu> sec
[17:36] <stokachu> jayjay: yea im not sure about that one, best to ask the charmers in #juju about it
[17:37] <stokachu> jayjay: i would run juju upgrade-charm first on your services though
[17:37] <jayjay> stokachu: ok i will try that
[17:37] <jayjay> stokachu: thanks so far
[17:37] <stokachu> jayjay: np
[17:38] <terje> hi, I'm using uvtool to provision a VM. I have a bridged interface it's attaching to, br0.
[17:39] <terje> How can I specify the IP to use on that interface/network?
[17:40] <jamespage> stokachu, jayjay: upgrade your keystone charm
[17:40] <stokachu> jamespage: yea hes on 255 now
[17:41] <stokachu> but seeing [WORKLOAD-STATUS] blocked: Ports which should be open, but are not: 5000, 35357
[17:42] <jayjay> yes
[18:08] <jayjay> stokachu: i restarted haproxy and now everything is Unit is ready :D
[18:10] <stokachu> nice
[18:12] <jayjay> yes, thanks again for your help
[19:07] <Sagar> how much a 32GB dedicated server running apache2 and php7.0-fpm is cable of handling concurrent users?
[19:09] <sarnold> it depends upon your application
[19:10] <OerHeks> apache has a limit set http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/core.html#maxclients
[19:12] <Sagar> assuming the best config?
[19:12] <Sagar> will it be able to handle 10K realtime users?
[19:12] <jrwren> it depends entirely on the applictaion.
[19:12] <Sagar> wp site is what i am runnng
[19:13] <OerHeks> say 25-50 mb, so that would be 600 users
[19:13] <Sagar> 600 realtime users?
[19:13] <OerHeks> and then your networkspeed ...
[19:13] <Sagar> i was running 1k realtime users on a 2gb vps of digital ocean
[19:14] <OerHeks> we are guessing, with such minimal info
[19:19] <Sagar> Suggest me the best?
[19:21] <nacc> Sagar: that's not how this works, tbh. "best" depends entirely on your workload and doesn't really mean anything wrt your original question (you asked for a quantitative answer, "best" implies qualitative)
[19:23] <patdk-wk> !best
[19:23] <patdk-wk> !poll
[19:24] <patdk-wk> damn bot must be getting altimzers
[19:24] <sarnold> nacc: when you write your application you need to cache all the things: use page caching to cache entire pages, fragment caching to cache all the rendered fragments, memcached or similar to cache 'business objects' and avoid roundtrips to the database, etc. writing scalable webpages takes a huge pile of work.
[19:24] <sarnold> sigh. not nacc. Sagar of course.
[19:24] <nacc> sarnold: :)
[19:25] <patdk-wk> and it highly depends on the usecase
[19:25] <patdk-wk> personally, I like to run like a wordpress site, locally
[19:25] <patdk-wk> then push a *static* copy of it publically
[19:25] <patdk-wk> means no one can leave comments or anything, but I don't care or want that
[19:25] <Sagar> so if you have a good config apache + varnish + php fpm along with a single wp running
[19:25] <Sagar> what would u say?
[19:25] <sarnold> thank you, comment sections are the worst :)
[19:26] <patdk-wk> varnish isn't a caching solution
[19:26] <patdk-wk> it's a solution when you *cannot* do proper caching in the application
[19:26] <nacc> Sagar: what would we say about what?
[19:26] <Sagar> patdk-wk: what about laravel?
[19:26] <Sagar> with memcache?
[19:26] <patdk-wk> never heard about laravel
[19:27] <Sagar> nacc: about the concurrent users? how much the server can handle
[19:27] <Sagar> laravel a php framework
[19:27] <patdk-wk> that is unknown
[19:27] <patdk-wk> you have to benchmark php
[19:28] <patdk-wk> if laravel is a php thing, then your just talking about php
[19:28] <patdk-wk> why confuse it with something else
[19:40] <kpettit> Anbody have recommendation for creating a self contained app/script that's easy to move arround?  I can't seem to find anything easier that bash.  Python and such always have dependencies that are painful
[19:41] <sarnold> perl's often installed but that's getting to be less common these days..
[19:41] <sarnold> and perl's datastructures are annoying if you aren't content with only arrays, hashesh, and int/float/string
[19:42] <patdk-wk> python has datastructures?
[19:42] <patdk-wk> python was really annoying me yesterday with itself
[19:44] <sarnold> python classes are easier to use and build arbitrary forests/graphs/networks of datatstructures.. perl references and worse perl OO is just exhausting. I'm pretty grumpy about python but if shell/sed/awk or perl don't work out, python's not a terrible choice
[19:47] <patdk-wk> took me awhile, but I got python working the way a *think* is correct
[19:47] <patdk-wk> no idea, but it gives me the result I'm looking for atleast :)
[19:47] <patdk-wk> I'm just too used to C, asm, perl, ...
[19:47] <patdk-wk> give me pointers, dont hide them from me
[19:51] <kpettit> sarnold: perl still has the same dependency hell though right?  with modules and versions, etc
[19:51] <kpettit> I'm just wanting to make something that's self contailed that I can put on any server and can run.  Bash is the only thing I can think of that's like that
[19:51] <nacc> python is present in all ubuntu these days (iirc)
[19:51] <patdk-wk> bash cannot do that
[19:51] <nacc> but "any server" is perhaps broader than that
[19:52] <patdk-wk> it has dependency hell on all the other programs you use to write the bash script :)
[19:52] <nacc> heh
[19:52] <kpettit> yeah but Ive got to deal with ubuntun from 10.04 to 16.04 and a bunch of centos machines
[19:52] <patdk-wk> besides the forkbombing bash does :)
[19:53] <kpettit> so I'm trying to make something generic that'll work on most linux systems out of the box without having do install a bunch of junk.
[19:53] <kpettit> I love python, but it annoys the crap out of me when I have to deploy it to other systems
[20:08] <sarnold> kpettit: I hesitate to suggest it since their community tends to encourage loads of practices I disagree with, but Go aims to provide you with a single executable that you can copy from machine to machine, so long as the architecture matches, it ought to run.
[20:08] <nacc> heh
[20:16] <nacc> rbasak: is it expected for squid3's autopkgtests to fail under lxc (appears to be apparmoer related, which i'm assuming would need nested apparmor)
[20:17] <rbasak> nacc: the test is supposed to declare if it requires full virt.
[20:17] <nacc> rbasak: well, the version in trusty, running in lxc under xenail doesn't pass tests for me :)
[20:18] <nacc> for test_zz_apparmor
[20:18] <rbasak> nacc: so yes if it does that, no if it doesn't. But yeah, if nested apparmor is needed, then perhaps the test should declare it needs full virt.
[20:18] <rbasak> nacc: try adt-virt-qemu. adt-buildvm-ubuntucloud is useful.
[20:18] <nacc> rbasak: just says 'needs-root'
[20:18] <nacc> rbasak: ack, can do, just slower :)
[20:29] <coreycb> ddellav, manlia's uploaded.  make sure you subscribe ubuntu-mir to the bug so the MIR team is notified to review it.  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/wily/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
[20:29] <ddellav> coreycb ok, will do
[20:36] <cliluw> If I'm making Debian packages for Ubuntu, do I want to install ubuntu-dev-tools or the devscripts package?
[20:38] <nacc> cliluw: well, you'd be making Ubuntu packages for Ubuntu, to be clear :)
[20:38] <nacc> cliluw: and i use tools from both, tbh
[20:42] <cliluw> nacc: According to the apt-cache, it seems devscripts breaks and replaces ubuntu-dev-tools.
[20:43] <nacc> cliluw: heh, let me look aagain
[20:43] <nacc> cliluw: i have both installed acc'g to apt-cache right now :)
[20:44] <nacc> cliluw: version specific breaks and replaces
[20:44] <cliluw> nacc: Oohh, ok!
[20:45] <synchronet> Hi, why do we get updates all the time?
[20:46] <synchronet> do the guys who write the code have their head up thier ass?  I thought they were pros?
[20:47] <synchronet> load of php updates tonight
[20:47] <synchronet> cant they get it right?
[20:47] <rbasak> You should ask for a full refund.
[20:47] <synchronet> yep
[20:47] <sarnold> synchronet: https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
[20:47] <synchronet> happy to chip in but geez
[20:47] <shewless> Hi. Is this the right place to ask about "conjure up"? I just want to know if the LXD option uses containers to run the "controllers" of openstack or if it just uses LXD as the compute nodes - if that makes any sense
[20:48] <synchronet> always kfg updates
[20:48] <synchronet> sarnold:  I never click anything
[20:48] <shewless> stokachu: rbasak said you might be able to help if you're there
[20:49] <sarnold> synchronet: this one should be clicked :) I think it'll resonate
[20:49] <synchronet> I never click anything
[20:50] <synchronet> I dont trust any fkr
[20:50] <synchronet> 26 years on the web has about done me
[20:51] <sarnold> synchronet: you've been on the web for 26 years and don't know jwz.org? O_o
[20:51] <nacc> heh
[20:51] <synchronet> I dont know anything thz days
[20:53] <synchronet> Lost in Space
[21:02] <stokachu> shewless: it is pure LXD for both controller and compute nodes
[21:02] <stokachu> no kvm at all
[21:06] <stokachu> shewless: i gotta go afk but leave me any messages here and ill answer them when i get back tonight
[21:14] <synchronet> stokachu: seems a cool guy
[21:18] <kpettit> sarnold: I haven't ever tried Go.  But it's worth a look.  Never had a reason to try it before, so worth a look at least
[21:25] <jrwren> https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html  the funny thing is, i filed a netscape2.0 bug in 1995 which was closed in the exact same way upon the rewrite.
[21:25] <synchronet> :)
[21:27] <synchronet> some one will kill hundredes of people one day and claim insanity and sat the internet made me do it
[21:27] <synchronet> say
[21:28] <synchronet> its getting beyond something, not sure what
[21:28] <synchronet> is it just money these days?
[21:29] <synchronet> cant run a simple website without constant interferance?
[21:30] <synchronet> update needs so they can spam you more
[21:30] <synchronet> and always to enhance your experience etc
[21:30] <synchronet> well kffkd off here at the mo
[21:30] <nacc> synchronet: i feel like this is a bit of a rant that is better suited for #ubuntu-offtopic :)
[21:31] <synchronet> yeah, sry, bad day
[21:31] <synchronet> stopped
[21:31] <nacc> synchronet: :) no problem
[21:31] <synchronet> :)
[21:31] <synchronet> ty
[22:03] <arooni> is it a stupid idea to add my ssh/deploy user to the 'root' group so i dont have run sudo to edit nginx virtual server files ?  am i just being lazy lol?
[22:11] <patdk-lap> I can't imagine why you would need that
[22:12] <patdk-lap> why would you *not* want to run sudo?
[22:14] <synchronet> patdk-lap:  how come other distros are not afraid of root,
[22:15] <synchronet> I have never had a server hacked in my life
[22:15] <patdk-lap> lucky you
[22:16] <synchronet> maybe
[22:16] <patdk-lap> I have been hacked twice, and by the same kernel vaunerability each time
[22:17] <patdk-lap> first, the server was slow in getting patched
[22:17] <synchronet> had a client hacked but that his WPress end
[22:17] <patdk-lap> second, the CVE was not compiled into that kernel, by the kernel packager
[22:17] <synchronet> also in 14.04 and proftp there is an expolit
[22:17] <patdk-lap> oh, websites being hacked are a multible day issue for me
[22:18] <synchronet> I just basically kicked a client with 5 dedicateds because he could not keep his wp sites up to date, sad but a major pain
[22:18] <patdk-lap> synchronet, that isn't part of ubuntu though
[22:18] <patdk-lap> proftpd is part of universe
[22:18] <patdk-lap> universe is unmaintained :)
[22:19] <synchronet> patdk-lap:  agreed, its what viryualmin drags in, they fixed it now apparently
[22:19] <sarnold> kpettit: there's a lot about go the language that looks nice. It looks like a nice application programming language but a poor systems programming language.
[22:19] <synchronet> virtualmin sry
[22:19] <patdk-lap> I have and keep my own proftpd as with any other software I need, in my production ppa
[22:20] <sarnold> patdk-lap: why do you use proftpd? it looks .. iffy.
[22:20] <patdk-lap> I only use it for myself in one location :)
[22:20] <patdk-lap> but I do maintain it for others that use it heavily
[22:20] <patdk-lap> for sftp mainly
[22:21] <synchronet> be nice if Ubuntu did its own hosting CP
[22:21] <patdk-lap> hosting CP?
[22:22] <synchronet> I just do hosting mainly
[22:22] <synchronet> yeah like virtualmin cpanel etc
[22:22] <patdk-lap> yuk
[22:22] <synchronet> whatever
[22:22] <synchronet> gui guy here
[22:22] <patdk-lap> I once attempted to use that other cpanel thing for customers before
[22:22] <patdk-lap> wh??
[22:23] <synchronet> centos have a panel I believe?
[22:23] <patdk-lap> filed a bug report, that the admin user used md5 password hashes, and I need that corrected before I could deploy it, as a paying customer
[22:23] <patdk-lap> they marked my bug as, won't fix
[22:23] <patdk-lap> I left them
[22:23] <synchronet> :)
[22:24] <synchronet> might as well get off the planet these days
[22:24] <terje> anyone here know much about uvtool?
[22:24] <patdk-lap> yes, no one *should* get my database, or hash, but lets be relistic
[22:24] <patdk-lap> expecially with closed source software
[22:24] <terje> I'm trying to use cloud-init with uvtool but it never seems to read my config
[22:25] <synchronet> terje: I cant help sry
[22:25] <terje> :/ it's one of those I've been banging my head on. :(
[22:25] <synchronet> never give up
[22:25] <terje> never surrender
[22:26] <synchronet> where there is a will ...
[22:28] <sarnold> terje: heheheh
[22:28] <sarnold> terje: do you get any error messages?
[22:29] <terje> sarnold: so my situation is..
[22:29] <terje> I'm not using vibr0, I'm using br0 so I can have my VM directly on my nic
[22:30] <terje> so using uvt-kvm works just fine, as in my VM boots up, I can virsh console to it
[22:30] <terje> and it's waiting for an IP via DHCP
[22:30] <terje> I'm trying to use cloud-init, specifically meta-data to set it's IP statically
[22:30] <terje> and that part just doesn't work.
[22:30] <patdk-lap> no idea what a uvtool is :)
[22:31] <terje> so, no error messages that I have seend.
[22:31] <terje> seen, even
[22:31] <sarnold> patdk-lap: this thing https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/cloud-images-and-uvtool.html
[23:17] <rbasak> terje: I wrote uvtool.
[23:17] <rbasak> terje: I'm not sure about your static IP case.
[23:18] <rbasak> That's cloud-init's responsibility. uvtool doesn't really do anything with cloud-init stuff apart from pass it on.
[23:18] <rbasak> Is it metadata or userdata you're using?
[23:18] <rbasak> Whichever way, are you using --user-data or --meta-data in your "uvt-kvm create" call?
[23:19] <rbasak> Because if not, uvt-kvm will create its own and thus possibly scupper whatever else you're trying.
[23:19] <sarnold> rbasak: is libvirt's idea of networking getting in the way here?
[23:22] <rbasak> That depends on what terje is expecting I think. libvirt packaging sets up a bridge and dnsmasq IIRC. But he might have changed that. uvtool and libvirt VM creation just connects the guest's NIC to a bridge by default.
[23:40] <keithzg> Anyone know of any decent small-business scale Windows antivirus products (okay, I know that's already thinning the herd precipitously, but bear with me) that can be centrally managed from an Ubuntu server?
[23:41] <keithzg> Our office's Bitdefender license is expiring and I'd rather not rely on a Windows server to shepherd the Windows instances.
[23:49] <stokachu> keithzg: nothing like bit defender, there's clamav by that's just for mail
[23:51] <stokachu> keithzg: I thought windows had something like windows defender that was included
[23:52] <jjohnston> hello I'm wondering if someone here can help me with conjure-up, lxd and maas
[23:53] <devster31> what should I look at if the sync command hangs indefinitely?
[23:53] <stokachu> jjohnston: which version of maas?
[23:53] <jjohnston> MAAS Version 2.0.0 (beta5+bzr5026)
[23:54] <stokachu> what issue are you having
[23:54] <jjohnston> maas is actually pretty happy its more lxd bridge and conjure-up authenticating against maas that I'm having issues with
[23:54] <stokachu> what version of juju?
[23:55] <jjohnston> so i have my hosts in a ready state in maas and am running conjure-up openstack using the lxd option
[23:55] <jjohnston> when I select the lxd domain created by the lxd configuration wizard it complains that lxdbr0 is missing
[23:56] <jjohnston> lxdbr0 IS missing, but no matter what I do the re-configure lxd wizard won't add the interface
[23:56] <stokachu> ah
[23:56] <stokachu> try running like lxc list
[23:57] <stokachu> see if the interface gets activated then
[23:57] <jjohnston> negative
[23:57] <jjohnston> i've even done lxd init and run through resetting everything to no avail
[23:57] <stokachu> yea ice hit this issue as well
[23:57] <stokachu> I've*
[23:58] <jjohnston> so if I go the "use existing maas" option in conjure-up and I put in the api endpoint and api key, it bails with a key error as well
[23:58] <stokachu> trying to remember what I had to do
[23:59] <stokachu> jjohnston: you just ending the IP?
[23:59] <stokachu> entering*
[23:59] <jjohnston> no i put the fqdn
[23:59] <jjohnston> with http://
[23:59] <stokachu> try just the ip
[23:59] <stokachu> no http
[23:59] <jjohnston> k


[00:12] <mwhudson> tsimonq2: ah ok, seems like it's getting there
[00:21] <tsimonq2> I want things synced too... :P
[00:28] <TheMuso> Of course if you want something badly enough and its not part of the transition, you could sync it yourself or get it synced.
[00:30] <tsimonq2> Yeah.
[00:30] <tsimonq2> That makes me want to be a MOTU. :P
[06:29] <cpaelzer> good morning
[11:31] <hammed> anyone here has root
[11:33] <ikonia> hammed: this is not the channel for htis
[11:33] <ikonia> hammed: you've already done this in #ubuntu - if you need help, please ask in #ubuntu
[11:33] <dax> (and #kubuntu)
[11:33] <dax> oh, you noticed, nvm
[11:33] <hammed> ok
[11:36] <hammed> anyone here help me with ubuntu root
[11:38] <Nafallo> hammed: please read the conversation you just had one more time.
[11:39] <hammed> ok
[13:27] <smoser> anyone have a easy way to do
[13:27] <smoser>  source_package_for_binary_package(binpkg_name, release)
[13:28] <smoser> i'd like to avoid chdist or the like , and need to deal with binpkg_name that is not the same arch i'm running
[13:31] <smoser> rbasak, maybe ^ ?
[13:32] <rbasak> smoser: how are you expecting it to do that? By asking Launchpad, or consulting an apt repository? The latter requires chdist or the like. I don't see any other way.
[13:33] <smoser> i dont care how
[13:34] <smoser> chdist could work, but just seems really heavy
[13:35] <persia> grep-dctrl, maybe?
[13:37] <smoser> i've been surprised before that this is so difficult.
[13:39] <smoser> persia, i dont follow.
[13:43] <Laney> smoser: The Packages file paragraphs contain a Source field if the source package name is different to the binary package name, and you can use grep-dctrl to get it
[13:44] <Laney> -sSource:Package -P binarypackagename or similar
[13:44] <smoser> right.
[13:44] <smoser> i thoguht persia was impliying something more.  that'd require chdist and getting each release i wanted to query about
[13:44] <smoser> and also each arch
[13:44] <Laney> You can get the packages files some other way
[13:45] <Laney> Doesn't /have/ to be chdist
[13:45] <smoser> sure.
[13:45] <Laney> ok, so that's not easy for you but I'm afraid I don't know of a way that I would consider easier
[13:45] <smoser> it just seems so reasonable a question... i have a list of packages that are installed (or in an image) what source did they come from.
[13:46] <smoser> yes, i can most certainly write that. and fix the edge cases, but it just seems like it shoudl exist.
[13:47] <Laney> Use one of the dctrl-tools programs if you are inside the environment, otherwise look at the Packages files if you want to know about some random archive
[13:47] <Laney> (Well, you'd use grep-dctrl in the second case too)
[13:48] <smoser> again, i can write this. its not "hard".  but my initial want was a list of all source packages that have been included in an ubuntu cloud image for any arch in any (recent) release.
[13:49] <persia> I can't find my script, but I remember having one that mirrored the sources for each release into a set of directories, and then consumed that to get this information.  There aren't very many interesting corner cases.
[14:41] <juliank> If someone wants to look at the (unfortunately huge, as it's been four months since the last one) apt 1.2.15 xenial SRU today or tomorrow: I'll be around these two days (from 0900-2200 CET, roughly); maybe on Thursday too
[14:41] <juliank> I hope to bring this down to monthly SRUs from now on, that should really make things easier to review.
[14:42] <juliank> (That is, whenever 1.3 gets a new release, there'll be a corresponding bugfix-only release in the 1.2 series within a month)
[14:43] <juliank> I directly uploaded the changes file this time as people were not that happy about the sync with 1.2.14 :)
[18:04] <jderose> cyphermox: FYI, Zesty desktop daily ISO isn't installable - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1638086
[18:30] <xnox> jderose, needs logs, responded on the bug report.
[18:35] <jbicha> jderose: xnox: see bug 1637985
[18:37] <xnox> Timeout error, please try again in a few minutes.
[18:39] <Laney> xnox: if parcimonie passes its autopkgtests, can I sync it?
[18:39] <xnox> sure
[18:39] <xnox> jderose, i cannot comment because lp times out.
[18:39] <Laney> thx
[18:39] <xnox> will fix this. Need to drop 1k signatures from cdimage building.
[18:39] <xnox> jbicha, ^
[18:40]  * Laney is trying to make red things go green
[19:13] <Laney> xnox: libgnupg-interface-perl/s390x might be up your street
[19:13] <Laney> (autopkgtest)
[19:13] <coreycb> bdmurray, hi, would you by any chance have some time to review the openstack packages in xenial review queue this week?
[19:18] <xnox> Laney, in a way it is not. It passes in KVM & bare metal, but not inside LXD
[19:18] <xnox> Laney, as gnupg goes something rather, namespace, something rather
[19:18] <xnox> it was ignored failure before for the gnupg2 transition.
[19:19] <xnox> however, not sure, how good/bad it actually is. General usage seems to work inside lxd containers
[19:19] <Laney> xnox: I thought the intersection of gpg and s390x would make you happy
[19:19] <Laney> if it was skipped already, happy to do so again if that's your desire
[19:19] <bdmurray> coreycb: the existing ones got verified?
[19:20] <bdmurray> coreycb: also there seem to be 2 novas in the queue w/ the same version
[19:20] <coreycb> bdmurray, checking..  mind rejecting the latest nova?  that's a mistake.
[19:24] <coreycb> bdmurray, nova and nova-lxd should be ready for review.  neutron is blocked by a package that I need to verify in  -proposed.
[19:24] <bdmurray> coreycb: rejected
[19:24] <coreycb> bdmurray, thanks
[19:25] <bdmurray> coreycb: yes, I'll have a look in the next couple of days
[19:25] <coreycb> bdmurray, thanks. I'll try to get neutron verified before then.
[20:01] <jderose> cyphermox: okay, thanks! i attached a tarbal of /var/log to the bug
[20:01] <cyphermox> thanks, I will look
[20:01] <cyphermox> would you happen to have time to try out some new initramfs-tools/isc-dhcp crack?
[20:02] <jderose> cyphermox: sure... for Zesty or what?
[20:02] <cyphermox> yep, all in zesty
[20:02] <jderose> (actually, Zesty would take me a bit more work to test, but i can)
[20:02] <cyphermox> oh
[20:03] <cyphermox> well, I can get you the similar stuff for Y for tomorrow, too
[20:03] <jderose> cyphermox: so is this testing the same initramfs issue (newer iteration thereof)?
[20:03] <cyphermox> yep
[20:03] <cyphermox> I'd put it all in my ppa:cyphermox/maas
[20:03] <jderose> cyphermox: high level, how does this differ from what's being done in Xenial currently?
[20:04] <cyphermox> well, we reverted all the ipv6 stuff, so it does IPv6
[20:04] <jderose> cyphermox: let me get my environment setup... assuming i don't hit other issues along the way, i'll give it a go
[20:04] <cyphermox> it normally does dhcp via ipconfig if you set ip=dhcp, or dhcp via dhclient if you don't give it enough info -- ie. ip=(nothing) or ip=:::::::::::whatever
[20:05] <cyphermox> jderose: thanks.
[20:05] <jderose> er, hmm, but i don't know if zesty server is currently installable. you happen to know whether it is?
[20:05] <cyphermox> sorry, I don't
[20:05] <cyphermox> I expect it should be
[20:05] <jderose> np, i'll find out soon enough :)
[20:06] <cyphermox> It's early a bit, I haven't really spun up VMs with zesty dailies, only reinstalled my laptop
[20:06] <cyphermox> I know you use the netboot stuff so it so it's interesting to have your opinion.
[20:20] <mwhudson> morning
[20:24] <jderose> cyphermox: yeah, thanks for pinging me on this. i'm keen to keep PXE booting working, so always happy to test :)
[20:33] <jderose> cyphermox: Zesty server daily ISO is also broken, so don't think I can test this today... but I will soon, thanks again!
[20:37] <cyphermox> ok
[20:38] <cyphermox> I will kick off a download of the server iso then, and look at that tonight
[20:42] <jderose> cyphermox: seems to be the same problem currently present in the desktop ISO
[20:48] <xnox> jderose, it's the same signature bug as above
[20:49] <xnox> cyphermox, i removed 1024DSA key from ubuntu-keyring, yet both the archive and cd-roms are signed with both.
[20:49] <xnox> apt is fine with just one valid signature.
[20:49] <xnox> cdrom appears to want both.
[20:49] <cyphermox> ah, I didn't see
[20:49] <xnox> apt-setup or some such.
[20:49] <xnox> jderose, please don't open more bug reports.
[20:50] <xnox> jderose, no need to reproduce with every single flavour either. They are all broken =)
[20:50] <xnox> cyphermox, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1637985
[20:50] <cyphermox> xnox: so you're not working on a fix in d-i then?
[20:50] <xnox> and my comment there.
[20:50] <cyphermox> (trying to understand if you say that because you're expecting me to fix it)
[20:50] <xnox> cyphermox, i was going to fix ubuntu-cdimage to sign cdroms with just one key.
[20:50] <cyphermox> ok
[20:50] <xnox> cyphermox, i am expecting me to fix it =)
[20:51] <xnox> tomorrow, as it's night time =)
[20:51] <cyphermox> ok, just making sure we don't double the work
[21:06] <nacc> slangasek: let's say i had a src pkg (e.g. spamassassin) with multiple orig tarballs. Can `gbp-import-orig` not be used for such a package? It seems like I would need to use `dpkg-source -x --skip-debianization` and import that directory, but then (it seems) `gbp import-orig` needs to run interactively (which of course I'm trying to avoid for the importer)
[21:07] <slangasek> nacc: don't know if gbp import-orig works with multiple-tarball, sorry
[21:07] <nacc> slangasek: np, it doesn't seem to, afaict :)
[21:08] <nacc> trying to figure out the easiest way for me to support pristine-tar in the importer


[07:02] (bspencer_/#ubuntu-mobile) ok.  I can chat about this offline
[07:02] (rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) making each commit into a patch is not very useful
[07:02] (rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) it would be eaiser to create one big patch and just split it up by hand
[07:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) bspencer_: unsure if we have answered your question well?
[07:03] (rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) another option is to only check in patches into the debian/patches dir
[07:04] <bspencer_> rustyl_: yes, that sounds like what I'd like to do
[07:04] <Mithrandir> I really despise keeping patches in revision control systems, but I know some people like it.
[07:04] <bspencer_> :)
[07:04] <rustyl_> the reality is that different projects deal with this in different ways
[07:04] <bspencer_> it is temporary and reminds us that these need to be removed soon
[07:04] <bspencer_> so it annoys us that they are there, and we ask about them all the time
[07:04] <bspencer_> and we know how our branch is different from upstream and can point to the changes at any time
[07:05] <rustyl_> the worse thing about this approach is when some of your developers don't understand the concept, and then go and directly edit the source files
[07:06] <bspencer_> rustyl_: Mithrandir I'll do what you suggest.  if we don't want to draga round patch files, I'll keep track of the changes elsewhere and just commit to the trunk.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: sounds good to me.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  App selection
[07:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  App selection
[07:06] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: your item
[07:06] <agoliveira> Sure.
[07:07] <agoliveira> We still have a few points we need to iron out regarding to applications.
[07:07] <agoliveira> For instance: RSS reader. Should we use a separate one or a browser or email plugin?
[07:07] <bspencer> agoliveira: good Q
[07:07] <bspencer> we will have online RSS readers
[07:07] <bspencer> and there is even a menu item for it in the mozilla browser
[07:08] <bspencer> but that means they have to open the browser to read it
[07:08] <agoliveira> I don't think we should start a discussion here as it would take forever so I suggest that you take a good hard look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications and take this to the mailing list.
[07:09] <agoliveira> That's becasue RSS is just one point :)
[07:09] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  but a chat about it would be good (not now)
[07:09] <bspencer> mailing list sometimes takes a long time to resolve for small points
[07:09] <agoliveira> We can make something specific, no problem.
[07:09] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: which apps are the ones you are wondering about?
[07:09] <agoliveira> bspencer: Agree
[07:10] <agoliveira> A few point then...
[07:10] <agoliveira> - Remote desktop client. I can prepare rdesktop and vnc but a few questions we need to iron out like, should they have panning? Should they work fullscreen only?
[07:10] <agoliveira> - RSS reader - Needed to decide which one.
[07:10] <agoliveira> - Office document viewer - There's none we can use directly, we need to discuss if we are going to do something about it like the options I proposed on the doc or not.
[07:10] <agoliveira> - Games? Which ones exactly.
[07:11] <bspencer> I have opinions about all those
[07:11] <bspencer> which we can chat about after?
[07:11] <agoliveira> Cool :) And why they aren 't on the wiki page? ;)
[07:11] <agoliveira> Sure
[07:11] <bspencer> unless Mithrandir is eager to chat now :)
[07:11] <Mithrandir> after the meeting sounds like a plan to me.
[07:12] <Mithrandir> we here in boston probably want a 30-minute break or so to catch lunch.
[07:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: sorry about my not commenting on wiki.  post the link here?
[07:12] <Mithrandir> (after the meeting)
[07:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: probably ready to eat too
[07:12] <agoliveira> bspencer: Sure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications
[07:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: do you want to sync up in an hour ?
[07:13] <agoliveira> bspencer: No problem.
[07:13] <bspencer> (around 11:30am PDT) ?
[07:13] <bspencer> (10:15 am PDT now)
[07:13] <agoliveira> Deal
[07:13] <Mithrandir> I have one agenda item about moblin.org vs ubuntu-mobile and patches and such, so let's do that, then end the meeting, unless anybody else has more stuff.
[07:13] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such.
[07:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such.
[07:14] <Mithrandir> so, we're currently at a sprint where we ended up having a bunch of issues because hildon-desktop on moblin had added a plugin API which didn't exist in Ubuntu
[07:14] <Mithrandir> it's quite crucial that we don't go about modifying upstream projects in a way that changes the public API.
[07:15] <Mithrandir> that won't gain us friends, and we end up with crazy problems when mixing and matching seemingly-compatible components.
[07:16] <Mithrandir> I'm taking this up here so everybody sees it, I think we've already talked through it and are in agreement to avoid doing it in the future.
[07:16] <HappyCamp_laptop> Mithrandir: you want to make a note of that in the log?
[07:16] <Mithrandir> [AGREED]  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream.
[07:16] <MootBot> AGREED received:  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream.
[07:16] <bspencer> is the issue that we changed the public API, or that there were changes on moblin that weren't found in UME and broke the build?
[07:17] <HappyCamp_laptop> kind of both, I think
[07:17] <Mithrandir> it broke at runtime, not at build.
[07:17] <bspencer> because just not changing the public API won't help the build problem
[07:17] <Mithrandir> the former is really the biggest problem, since the latter wouldn't have happened without the former.
[07:18] <Mithrandir> it wasn't a build problem, it was a runtime problem where the "prev" button in the marquee would go down in flames with an unresolved symbol.
[07:18] <Mithrandir> (there might have been other problems too, but in this case, that was the problem)
[07:18] <bspencer> yeah.  not good
[07:18] <Mithrandir> if upstream has taken a patch to add an API, it's fine, even if it's not in a released version.
[07:19] <bfiller_> just so I'm clear, the moblin version of hildon-desktop is going away and it will only be hosted on launchpad. correct?
[07:19] <bspencer> bfiller_: gone
[07:19] <Mithrandir> there is no moblin version of hildon-desktop.
[07:19] <Mithrandir> it's already gone.
[07:20] <bfiller_> thanks
[07:20] <bspencer> hildon-desktop was only in moblin.org temporarily until we could get our patches upstream
[07:20] <bfiller_> bspencer: got it
[07:20] <bspencer> but obviously we didn't get them there soon enough :)
[07:20] <Mithrandir> anybody got any more agenda items, or can we adjourn?
[07:21] <Mithrandir> adjourned, then.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> #endmeeting
[07:21] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:13.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> woo
[07:21] <Mithrandir> only 80 minutes or so.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> lunch!
[07:22] <bfiller_> bspencer, rusty: want to talk about the flash stuff now?
[07:22] <bspencer> I would if rustyl_  is still here
[07:22] <patm> rustyl_, I have a  question about SDIO
[07:23] <rob_moblin> patm: what's the question?
[07:23] <rustyl_> i'm hear
[07:23] <patm> we are having trouble with SD memory cards with the latest patches applied
[07:23] <patm> our SDIO wifi card works but not SD cards
[07:24] <patm> the mmc_core module seems to conflict
[07:24] <rustyl_> bfiller_, i'm reading the doc you sent out
[07:24] <bspencer> bfiller_: I'm reading your doc
[07:24] <rob_moblin> patm: how so?
[07:25] <bfiller_> ok, we can talk after you're done
[07:25] <rustyl_> bfiller_, have you seen how application starting works now?
[07:25] <patm> the driver will not load unless we remove the mmc_core
[07:25] <rob_moblin> patm: do you have both MMC and MSS installed at the same time?
[07:25] <bfiller_> rusty: yes I have. I realize it's slightly different
[07:25] <bfiller_> rusty: I did have a question about it though
[07:26] <rustyl_> bfiller_, i like the idea of not having flash hard coded with exec commands
[07:26] <rob_moblin> patm: MSS is a replacement for the MMC stack that's in the kernel by default. it's an either or option
[07:26] <bfiller_> rusty: agree
[07:26] <patm> ok
[07:26] <patm> when we have just mss, sd cards do not work
[07:26] <bfiller_> rusty: looks like you are storing the index into the array in the flash movie
[07:27] <bfiller_> only problem we hit in our case is that the flash movie has hard coded apps
[07:27] <rustyl_> bfiller_, yeap.... then all the flash content needs to do is say 'start #3'
[07:27] <rob_moblin> patm: our focus right now is NOT to on MSS -- we want to move to Pierre Ossman's new SDIO stack
[07:27] <rustyl_> bfiller_, all you need to do is remove the hard coded apps, and replace that with a set of desktop files that result in the same behavior
[07:28] <patm> rob_moblin, RIght, I understand
[07:28] <patm> rob_moblin, wondered if it was a known issue or something to do with our environment
[07:28] <bfiller_> if the we don't use the addApp() to add the movie dynamcially to flash, how does the movie know what the corresponding index is?
[07:29] <rustyl_> bfiller_, the idea is that the flash content is adding the apps dynamically
[07:30] <rob_moblin> patm: we've seen that some SD cards work and others don't
[07:30] <rob_moblin> patm: we've also seen even with the MMC stack, some SD cards work and other don't
[07:30] <rustyl_> bfiller_, quick quesion...
[07:30] <bfiller_> rusty: I think that is a good idea. Just not exactly sure how to modify the customer's movie to do this.
[07:30] <patm> rob_moblin, in that case let me do some further testing, thanx
[07:31] <rustyl_> bfiller_, are you guys stuck with a flash based UI... do you have the ability to choose a different technology?
[07:31] <bfiller_> rusty: for this particular customer, we're stuck with flash. They are insistent with using it
[07:31] <rustyl_> bfiller_, i am very conserned about battery usage
[07:32] <bfiller_> rusty: yes, we've raised that issue
[07:32] <rob_moblin> patm: we were also thinking there might be a problem with the crown beach board w.r.t. to SD cards, but if you're seeing different results on your non-crown beach HW it could be a SW issue
[07:32] <rustyl_> bfiller_, unless we can somehow stop the flash content while it is not visible, then the adobe flash implementation will never let the cpu go idle for long enough to get any benifit from all the new cpu mobile technologies
[07:33] <patm> rob_moblin, the customer reported this, but I have not tried recently, I will try their dev board now
[07:33] <bspencer> rustyl_: we should get someone good at flash to push that theory
[07:33] <rob_moblin> patm: ok
[07:33] <bfiller_> rusty: how do the desktop files in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/applications get installed there?
[07:33] <bspencer> and make the most basic flash program and see if it isn't our flash
[07:33] <bspencer> rustyl_: have you tried other flash programs that are static?
[07:33] <bfiller_> I was expecting the home plugin to read the desktop files out of /usr/share/applications
[07:33] <rustyl_> bfiller_, the idea is that an applicatino that wanted to be presented in the UI would add it's own desktop file to that location
[07:34] <bspencer> bfiller_: we didn't want to change the default applications .desktop content.  For example, we don't want to show Python, though there may be a .desktop file for it
[07:34] <bspencer> in /usr/share/applications
[07:34] <bfiller_> rusty, bspencer: I understand
[07:35] <patm> rustyl_, it needs to be a more standard folder not tied to the flash ui
[07:35] <bspencer> I do think it would be nice to have it located in /etc/mobile-ui/applications  (or a symlink or something)
[07:35] <bspencer> and every UI would look there, regardless of whether it was written in flash or other
[07:35] <bspencer> but that's just brainstorming
[07:35] <rustyl_> bspencer, bfiller_ ...although, we could look for a new entry (like stuff under ['Hildon Home'] )
[07:35] <patm> right, I just installed some new apps that need to have their rules changed to work
[07:36] <bspencer> maybe /usr/share/applications/mobile-ui
[07:36] <bspencer> or mobile-home
[07:36] <bfiller_> rustyl_: so does the mobile-basic-flash deb package current install those dekstop files?
[07:36] <rustyl_> yes
[07:37] <rustyl_> the other problem we have is dictating order of the icons
[07:37] <bspencer> we need to create an "application requirements list"
[07:37] <bspencer> applications should include creation of this item.  (yes, ordering is also an issue)
[07:37] <patm> looks like you are using the numbered prefix for ordering
[07:37] <rustyl_> right now we just send down the array of apps as they desktop entries are found
[07:38] <bspencer> btw, ordering may be changed by end user.  Also, applications could be grouped into category.  The design should accomodate these things.
[07:38] <patm> right our customer has defined a grouping
[07:38] <bfiller_> bspencer: what are the number prefixes used for?
[07:38] <bspencer> order
[07:38] <bspencer> :-\
[07:39] <bspencer> that is the order they will be represented in the current UI, left-to-right
[07:39] <bfiller_> bspencer: that's what I thought
[07:39] <rustyl_> actually, it's the order of the index entryies, which the flash content translates into a left-to-right icon ordering
[07:39] <rustyl_> we could add a desktop entry for group
[07:39] <patm> who can write up the requirements and a proposal?
[07:40] <bspencer> rustyl_ and I will talk about it
[07:40] <bspencer> and send out something
[07:40] <patm> great
[07:40] <rustyl_> actually
[07:40] <bspencer> or
[07:40] <rustyl_> i don't think that is the best way
[07:40] <rustyl_> since we have our existing flash content that works (for some degree of work)...
[07:41] <patm> oh oh
[07:41] <rustyl_> what we need are requirements from other people trying to make the UI work for different flash content
[07:41] <rustyl_> like what is coming out here
[07:41] <bfiller_> I know our customer will require grouping of apps
[07:41] <bspencer> can we list them here briefly (the ones we know) ?
[07:41] <bfiller_> so I think that is important
[07:41] <bspencer>  - req1) grouping
[07:41] <rustyl_> for example... what if you don't have a slider concept... how do you deal with that?
[07:41] <lenkawell>  a non-flash home page?
[07:42] <bspencer>  - req2) ordering by customer
[07:42] <bspencer>  - req3) ordering by end-user
[07:42] <bspencer>  - req 4) non-flash UI home page accomodated
[07:42] <patm> multiple themes?
[07:42] <bspencer> rustyl_: yes, in that case the ordering can be ignored, but maybe grouping is used
[07:42] <bspencer> rustyl_: (if there is no slider, for example)
[07:43] <bspencer> patm: what do you mean?  It should support theming?
[07:43] <bfiller_> rusty: back to the index thing. Could we use an invented applicationId as the key rather than an array index?
[07:43] <patm> icon needs to play along with it
[07:43] <bfiller_> rusty: the appId could be stored in the desktop file
[07:44] <bfiller_> rusty: then the flash movie doesn't need to necessary support dynamically adding apps
[07:44] <bspencer> patm: the location of the icons is another topic  -- good point.  Actually the theme will include:   /usr/share/theme/<theme definition with theme images, but not icons>  AND /usr/share/icons/<theme icons>
[07:45] <patm> bspencer, so the icons go to /usr/share/icons ? but they do not today?
[07:45] <bspencer> patm: right
[07:45] <bspencer> they do not today
[07:45] <bspencer> (well, rustyl_ may have changed that)
[07:45] <rustyl_> nope
[07:46] <bspencer> originally the icons were in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/icons
[07:46] <kwwii> they should probably go in /usr/share/icons/<THEME>
[07:46] <bspencer> kwwii:  yes  that is what I meant to say
[07:46] <patm> sounds good
[07:46] <bspencer> we just don't have a theme yet :)    ( kwwii : btw, how does an application get the name of the current theme ? )
[07:47] <rustyl_> via the environment
[07:47] <bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: be right back, have to run to caf. before it closes
[07:47] <bspencer> rustyl_: from a matchbox-wm method ?
[07:47] <bspencer> bfiller_: k
[07:48] <bspencer>  - req5) home UI uses current theme for icons and default background
[07:49] <bspencer>  - req6) user can change the default background using control-panel applet for configuring desktop   (or a shortcut on the home screen UI which does the same)
[07:49] <rustyl_> i think i need to think on this a bit
[07:49] <kwwii> bspencer: it is a system variable (probably) set in gtkrc
[07:49] <kwwii> bspencer: once we have a test theme a lot of this will become much clearer I assume
[07:50] <kwwii> I looked into using the theme-maker java app to create a theme but the template file is in a totally different order for that
[07:50] <kwwii> so I gave up
[07:50] <bspencer> kwwii: I was going to hack a little on hildon-theme-mobile-basic to add icons for a temporary thing, so we could pull them into the UI and get the UI home screen working right
[07:51] <kwwii> bspencer: sounds good for the short-term
[07:51] <bspencer> kwwii: yeah, still not a real theme
[07:51] <kwwii> bspencer: I was going to update the pics for the top-bar as well...I'll probably be pinging you about that sometime soon
[07:52] <bspencer> sounds good
[07:52] <kwwii> bspencer: it seems that in the next few weeks we need to have something that looks halfway like we want it to show to people
[07:52] <bfiller_> I'm back
[07:53] <bspencer> kwwii: agreed.
[07:54] <bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: any comments about the events doc?
[07:55] <rustyl_> bfiller_, so you have a set of predefined events
[07:56] <bfiller_> rustyl_: that's what we were thinking for this particular customer. Could be made more generic though.
[07:56] <bspencer> bfiller_: how does the javascript send a dbus event?
[07:57] <bfiller_> bspencer: it doesn't
[07:57] <bspencer> ok.  I thought I was missing something
[07:57] <bfiller_> bspencer: home plugin gets a dbus event and calls a javascript function umeEvent() passing it the appropriate event
[07:58] <bspencer> home plugin is what -- gtkmozembed ?
[07:58] <bspencer> like now?
[07:58] <bfiller_> bspencer: yes
[07:58] <bspencer> sorry -- I'm looking at ht epicture and trying to understand it
[07:58] <bfiller_> bspencer: the change would be the home plugin would listen for appropriate dbus signals and then forward to the flash movie
[07:58] <bspencer> so do we need an xpcom interface for javascript--> C code --> dbus event ?
[07:59] <bspencer> that is part of the gtkmozembed plugin ?
[07:59] <rustyl_> bspencer, what are you asking?
[07:59] <rustyl_> no need for a new xpcom interface
[07:59] <bspencer> how does the flash send a dbus event
[07:59] <rustyl_> all the native work is done in our container
[07:59] <bspencer> what are the steps
[08:00] <rustyl_> js just acts as a glue layer between the flash content and our container
[08:00] <bfiller_> bspencer: here is the flow 1) flash movie calls umeEnable() function which tells container to start listening for a predefined set of events 2) when container (plugin) gets events, it delivers them to flash movie via javascript call
[08:01] <bspencer> ok.  the container is the C code sending/receiving dbus events.  So javascript is making an "exec" call ?
[08:01] <rustyl_> bspencer, if you look at the current code, you will see how we transfer data back and forth
[08:01] <bfiller_> flash movie can also ask for specific property via umeGetProperty()
[08:01] <bspencer> look at the code?  inconceivable.  ok.
[08:02] <bfiller_> bspencer: C code uses gtkmozembed to call a know javascript function in the flash_home.html page passing it the information about the event
[08:12] <bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: when I get more of the event interaction coded in the mobile-basic-flash-plugin I will send you diffs to take a look at
[08:22] <Mithrandir> rustyl_: please don't use a different directory for the .desktop files, but rather use the OnlyShowIn/NotShowIn keys in the .desktop files already existing.
[08:22] <ToddBrandt_> Mithrandir: sorry I missed the meeting earlier, were there any hot topics for me?
[08:23] <Mithrandir> ToddBrandt_: we'd liked to have had a status update on the control panel applets, so if you'd want to post that to the list, that'd be good.
[08:23] <ToddBrandt_> Mithrandir: will do
[08:23] <Mithrandir> thanks
[08:30] <agoliveira> bspencer: I'm ready when you are.
[08:32] <bspencer> agoliveira: hi
[08:33] <agoliveira> bspencer: Want to talk about the apps now or later?
[08:33] <bspencer> now
[08:33] <agoliveira> Cool.
[08:33] <bspencer> rss reader:
[08:33] <bspencer> it would be nice to have a small one outside the browser
[08:33] <bspencer> but I don't think it is a high priority
[08:34] <bspencer> I think we could call it post-Oct
[08:34] <bspencer> unless we know of one that just works
[08:34] <bspencer> we'll have online readers
[08:34] <bspencer> and usually rss-reader sends you to the browser when you lcick an item
[08:35] <agoliveira> I have the RSS reader as your second round of "must haves" do you want to change that?
[08:35] <bspencer> agoliveira: one thing we could onsider is a category of applications "works on mobile, but not ported yet"
[08:35] <bspencer> rss reader support is required, just not the external one, I would argue
[08:36] <agoliveira> Ok.
[08:36] <bspencer> if the browser supports an rss reader plugin, that would be ok
[08:36] <bspencer> (or similar functionality)
[08:36] <bspencer> but reading your page, I see a couple of links
[08:36] <bspencer> it would be cool to try those on the mobile device and see how usable they were
[08:36] <bspencer> and keep them as "help needed" items if someone wanted to jump in
[08:37] <agoliveira> That's the point. So you suggest leave it up to the browser now and go for a dedicated reader laert?
[08:37] <agoliveira> later
[08:39] <bspencer> yeah
[08:39] <kwwii> bspencer: where did you get the layout file to use with the slicer?
[08:39] <agoliveira> About the applications on the page, not all of them were tested on the device itself but all were on a chroot at least and worked to some useful level at least unless they had some major drawback like mobipocket.
[08:40] <agoliveira> Or the document viewer just because it does not exist in the way we want it.
[08:40] <bspencer> right, ok.
[08:40] <bspencer> what was the next app to chat about?
[08:41] <bspencer> kwwii: again, sorry, but I never used the slicer :-\
[08:41] <kwwii> oh, right...I forgot
[08:41] <bspencer> I just took the end-result theme/images directory and replaced them with my own
[08:41] <agoliveira> bspencer: hold on a second. I lost my notes :)
[08:41] <bspencer> http://liferea.sourceforge.net/screenshot8.png  looks very nice, I have to say
[08:42] <bspencer> ( agoliveira  )
[08:42] <agoliveira> bspencer: Remote desktop client
[08:42] <bspencer> aaright
[08:42] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yes, liferea is great but needs hiuldonization
[08:42] <bspencer> ooops
[08:42] <bspencer> agoliveira: sure, but the UI is simple
[08:43] <agoliveira> Indeed.
[08:44] <bspencer> sorry, I'm in and out
[08:44] <bspencer> ok.  remote desktop
[08:44] <bspencer> I played with vncviewer
[08:44] <bspencer> matchbox keyboard didn't work with it
[08:44] <bspencer> so that would have to be figured out.  probably matthew allum has a fix we could use
[08:45] <agoliveira> bspencer: There's 2 things to figure out: vnc and rdesktop. Both can be put to work without much haslle as I did it on N770. Just need to know if we are going do both, none and when :)
[08:46] <bspencer> rdesktop is to windows?
[08:46] <bspencer> looking up rdesktop ...
[08:46] <agoliveira> Yep
[08:46] <agoliveira> RDP client
[08:46] <bspencer> ok.  is it in-the-clear legal?
[08:47] <bspencer> " rdesktop was initially written by Matthew Chapman  based on various scarce documentation, wire sniffs, and trial-and-error "
[08:47] <bspencer> makes me worried
[08:47] <bspencer> (speaking with my Intel hat on, not the hacker hat)
[08:47] <agoliveira> I can't say. In Brazil it is :)
[08:52] <bspencer> ok.  let me look around.  Ideally we focus on connecting to windows desktop first, if it is possible to get a legal-in-US solution
[08:52] <agoliveira> Sure. You would need to consult your shark^H^H^H^H^H^H legal tem, I guess
[08:52] <agoliveira> team
[08:52] <bspencer> yeah, :)
[08:52] <bspencer> or at least wikipedia :)
[08:52] <Mithrandir> bspencer: the rdesktop protocol is specified in a pile of ISO standards.
[08:52] <bspencer> Mithrandir: do you see any reason not to use it?
[08:52] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, but don't care about implement it. I won't work.
[08:52] <bspencer> agoliveira: do you know if it connect to Windows Vista and XP ?
[08:52] <bspencer> I see NT mentioned
[08:52] <bspencer> NT terminal server is still used though I think.
[08:52] <agoliveira> bspencer: It's latest encarnation uses RDP 5 and some bits of 6 so, yes.
[08:52] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: -EPARSE.
[08:52] <Mithrandir> bspencer: no, I thinkit's completely fine.
[08:52] <bspencer> agoliveira: let's do that
[08:52] <agoliveira> bspencer: Ok. rdesktop and/or vnc?
[08:52] <kwwii> w00t...I got it to work :-)
[08:52] <bspencer> agoliveira: does rdesktop require something to run on Windows?
[08:52] <bspencer> if not, then it is better than making the user install vncserver on their windows box
[08:52] <bspencer> (my mom couldn't do that easily)
[08:52] <agoliveira> If it's a rdp server capable version of windows, no.
[08:52] <bspencer> you probably have to configure your windows system and it only works with XP full edition, not home edition
[08:52] <agoliveira> Exactly
[08:53] <bspencer> mm... ok.  Well... I don't know then
[08:53] <bspencer> it seems like a "nice-to-have" application, but also cool
[08:54] <bspencer> if it can never work on XP Home edition, then I'm not as excited about it.  At least vnc could work on all systems
[08:54] <agoliveira> bspencer: We need a GUI to it as it is a command line application. We do have tsclient we can use as a base but needs hildonization.
[08:54] <smagoun_> rdekstop was a popular demo on Pepper Linux, despite the fact it requires XP Pro, etc
[08:55] <agoliveira> bspencer: It won't work with XP home, that's for sure.
[08:55] <smagoun_> For comparison, VNC was barely on the radar
[08:55] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  I'm not knowledgeable enough about rdesktop to compare it to vnc.  I've only used vnc.
[08:55] <Mithrandir> rdesktop's more convenient on thin pieces of string.
[08:55] <bspencer> smagoun_: do you know if that is because of performance, usability, or just market presence?
[08:55] <bspencer> Mithrandir: even compared to tightvnc ?
[08:56] <Mithrandir> bspencer: I believe so.
[08:56] <agoliveira> bspencer: RDP is supported by MS so we can take some advantages, it's usually faster, one can redirect devices, have different users/sessions, while vnc is a screen grabber/controller only.
[08:56] <Sciri> bspencer: Market presence; all the marketing types walking into the Pepper booth at CES and Digital Life knew Remote Desktop was a marketing catchphrase and most had never even heard of VNC.
[08:56] <agoliveira> That too.
[08:56] <bspencer> Sciri: ha ha.  funny world.  vnc is nice for linux hackers
[08:57] <bspencer> ok.  agoliveira just do both :P
[08:57] <Sciri> bspencer: Exactly. All the Linux geeks who came to see the Pad asked for VNC but they were the minority.
[08:57] <Mithrandir> bspencer: xrdp exists and works.
[08:57] <smagoun_> bspencer: I'm not sure why it was so popular, but I think people understand + are familiar with windows, so it's a way to tie the mobile device to their windows pc.
[08:58] <bspencer> a guy here at work tried rdesktop and vnc and some others
[08:58] <bspencer> there was a common issue with matchbox keyboard
[08:59] <bspencer> although I think he said it worked with rdesktop, not vnc
[08:59] <agoliveira> When I was working in consulting, I had a costumer for whom I created a very small linux distro that in the end just started rdesktop fullscreen so he could connect to windows servers.
[08:59] <bspencer> lol
[08:59] <smagoun_> bspencer: People also liked that there was nothing to install (on the windows side). FWIW rdesktop performance is fine, depending on the network connection.
[08:59] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yep. Being there, done that
[08:59] <bspencer> ok.  so what does it take to get rdesktop to work?
[08:59] <agoliveira> smagoun_: You should try rdp over nx. Goes rounds around rdp alone.
[09:00] <bspencer> what is this "command-line interface"
[09:00] <agoliveira> bspencer: rdesktop is a command line tool. We need agui to make it palatable.
[09:00] <bspencer> and you mentioned one
[09:00] <agoliveira> There's tsclient but needs hildonization.
[09:00] <bspencer> is tsclient sexy?
[09:01] <smagoun_> agoliveira: "good enough" > spending time on the problem :)
[09:01] <agoliveira> It's a ripoff of the windows rdp client almost :)
[09:01] <agoliveira> I have to check if there's nothign already done for maemo.
[09:02] <bspencer> ok.  so let's move on.
[09:02] <agoliveira> Cool.
[09:02] <bspencer> (btw, vnc as-is works, just isn't hildonized, which is fine for linux hackers today)
[09:03] <agoliveira> Fine
[09:03] <agoliveira> Next: office document viewer.
[09:03] <bspencer> oh, excpet for keyboard.  I'll ping matchbox guys about keyboard.
[09:03] <agoliveira> Tight spot as there's none.
[09:03] <bspencer> office document viewer ...
[09:03] <bspencer> btw we tried the Adobe PDF plugin in the browser awhile back
[09:03] <bspencer> it hung the browser and system
[09:03] <bspencer> it is a little bit BIIIIG
[09:04] <agoliveira> For PDF is easy.
[09:04] <bspencer> what document types to support?
[09:04] <bspencer> ODP, DOC, PDF
[09:04] <agoliveira> The problem is the MS documents
[09:04] <agoliveira> MS Office, Im eman
[09:04] <agoliveira> mean
[09:04] <bspencer> or.. what is the extension for the standard open document format? odf?
[09:04] <agoliveira> I don't see any easy alternative here
[09:04] <agoliveira> odf
[09:04] <bspencer> ok, that's what I meant
[09:05] <agoliveira> odp is for presentations, I think
[09:05] <bspencer> let's talk about usage models
[09:05] <bspencer> how are people getting .doc's on their MIDs?
[09:05] <agoliveira> We could easily use abiword and gnumeric but they don't read MS docs as well as openoffice and there's nothing for powerpoint.
[09:05] <bspencer> email or browser, probably
[09:05] <agoliveira> Yep
[09:05] <bspencer> "easily" sounds a little optimistic
[09:06] <bspencer> OO is out of the question
[09:06] <agoliveira> bspencer: They are already hildonized.
[09:06] <bspencer> so what's the belly achin about
[09:06] <agoliveira> Need a bit polish but works.
[09:06] <smagoun_> email or browser. MS compatibility is all the consumer cares about, we found
[09:06] <bspencer> smagoun_: you and your darn customers
[09:06] <bspencer> customers customers customers
[09:06] <agoliveira> Customers are for the week.
[09:06] <agoliveira> weak :)
[09:07] <smagoun_> bspencer: remind me how much $ intel is spending on the hardware? :)
[09:07] <bspencer> literally hundreds of dollars ;)
[09:07] <bspencer> agoliveira: if we can use abiword, that is good
[09:08] <bspencer> it is the best we've got.
[09:08] <Sciri> HappyCamp: Shhh. ;)
[09:08] <agoliveira> It's a plan to me but we will still lack on powerpoint area.
[09:08] <bspencer> ok.  we'll have to keep looking.
[09:08] <bspencer> what else exists in Linux besides OO for powerpt today ?
[09:09] <smagoun_> http://sixlegs.com/blog/java/powerpoint-viewer.html
[09:09] <bspencer> I see "java" in that url
[09:09] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yep.
[09:10] <smagoun_> ...though google ate the company. nevermind.
[09:10] <bspencer> "look at the screenshots' link does work
[09:10] <agoliveira> I found this before but I'm not really happy to use java just for this.
[09:11] <bspencer> let's make PPT a Priority 2 :)
[09:11] <kwwii> hehe, I figured out how the tools work, now to get the package to build
[09:11] <agoliveira> Better if we install ppveiwer using wine :-D
[09:11] <bspencer> kwwii: good news
[09:11] <kwwii> agoliveira: who says that random typing won't solve a problem :p
[09:11] <agoliveira> Actually ppviewer works perfectly on wine.
[09:11] <bspencer> kwwii: we should expect a full theme then by end of day?
[09:12] <agoliveira> :)
[09:12] <kwwii> bspencer: to be honest, I might get it done within a few hours
[09:12] <bspencer> writing that down
[09:12] <kwwii> unfortunately I have a meeting soon
[09:12] <agoliveira> erasing that down...
[09:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  let's put PPT on hold and go one
[09:12] <bspencer> s/one/on
[09:12] <kwwii> ;-)
[09:12] <agoliveira> Yep
[09:12] <agoliveira> Games !
[09:13] <agoliveira> I need to pick a few.
[09:13] <bspencer> ok.  we should assign everybody to port 1 game
[09:13] <bspencer> some obvious winners:  card games, sudoku
[09:14] <bspencer> and I recently played with a little marble game that you used your finger to rotate the floor and try to get it to the other side of the maze
[09:14] <agoliveira> I don't think we really need to port anything as most of them have their own interfaces unless you want to add like gnome-games.
[09:14] <bspencer> it would be nice with an accelerometer, but even without it was usable
[09:14] <bspencer> agoliveira: right.  some have simple menus
[09:14] <agoliveira> bspencer: I know this one. QUite coool. Problem: we don't have 3D driver yet.
[09:14] <bspencer> it would be very nice to get at least one 3D game
[09:14] <bspencer> agoliveira: we do on the Samsung :)
[09:15] <agoliveira> Oh... sure
[09:15] <agoliveira> If this is ok to you, I'm fine with it.
[09:15] <bspencer> yeah.  I'll commit to providing at least one game by October
[09:16] <agoliveira> Actually the 3D games is the easiest one: just run it fullscreen :)
[09:16] <bspencer> true
[09:16] <agoliveira> s/is/are
[09:16] <bspencer> I played a quake version in Linux a couple years ago.  Not sure if it was legal or open source
[09:17] <agoliveira> Maybe we should stick with true freeones like tuxracer, etc
[09:17] <agoliveira> There's some very new and coll ones like battle tanks
[09:18] <agoliveira> Or armagetron.
[09:18] <bspencer> yeah, I heard of armegetron
[09:18] <bspencer> I did a "top 10 linux open source games" or something query once
[09:18] <bspencer> and that was on the list
[09:18] <agoliveira> bzflag would be nice too.
[09:18] <agoliveira> One of my favorites I might add :)
[09:18] <bspencer> agoliveira: it would be cool if we could get games that played well with two mids
[09:18] <bspencer> or MID+GPS
[09:19] <agoliveira> bzflag could.
[09:19] <agoliveira> armagetron too
[09:19] <bspencer> yeah.  is that like steal the flag
[09:19] <bspencer> steal the flag = game where you run around a field and try to capture the other team's flag before they find and capture yours
[09:19] <agoliveira> bzflag? It has a CTF mode but it's more like a battle
[09:20] <bspencer> where you hit the other guy with your MID until he collapses?
[09:20] <smagoun_> tux racer might be better for the target market than bzflag + other shooters (though it looks like TR development has slowed/stopped?)
[09:20] <bspencer> agoliveira: anything else important about apps?
[09:20] <kylem> do the devices have a gyroscope like the ibm hdaps? tuxracer could be a lot of fun if so. ;-P
[09:20] <bspencer> kylem: up to the ODM
[09:20] <agoliveira> smagoun_: I don't like very much games without lots of blood, gore and senseless violence so I can't say :)
[09:21] <bspencer> I've heard of some considering accelerometers or similar as well as GPS, but I don't know for sure
[09:21] <agoliveira> kylem: That would be cool
[09:22] <agoliveira> You can take a look at the my sugestions in the apps page
[09:22] <bspencer> agoliveira: about the camera
[09:23] <agoliveira> ANy educational games, parhapos?
[09:23] <bspencer> agoliveira: I did a little work to try and get specs for the Samsung camera
[09:23] <agoliveira> bspencer: Great. Got them?
[09:23] <bspencer> but I couldn't get much response from Vimicro.
[09:23] <bspencer> I got response, just not anything like "sure, here's the specs"
[09:23] <bspencer> more like "if you are insterested in making a product in the future, give us a call"
[09:24] <bspencer> education games
[09:24] <agoliveira> I think that is not a big problem to make it work but may take some time tough
[09:24] <agoliveira> The camera should have a very similar design of the others from the manufacturer.
[09:25] <bspencer> the camera should use UVC instead of "Vendor specific"
[09:25] <bspencer> then we wouldn't need the specs
[09:25] <agoliveira> bspencer: In a perfect world it would :)
[09:25] <bspencer> I always thought MID would be great as a quizing tool
[09:26] <bspencer> (educational topic)
[09:26] <bspencer> like cue-cards
[09:26] <bspencer> and simple to write, etc.
[09:26] <bspencer> I've played the Nintendo Brain quizzer game
[09:26] <agoliveira> Interesting
[09:26] <bspencer> it is kind of fun in a simple way.  Great for kids (and makes moms happy)
[09:27] <bspencer> agoliveira: ah, really?
[09:27] <bspencer> you've got $400 to spend and no place to spend it
[09:27] <agoliveira> http://www.gcompris.net/ have a lot of them but I don't know how good they are
[09:27] <agoliveira> bspencer: No, less than that :)
[09:29] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  going to take off for a few unless you have something
[09:29] <agoliveira> No. It's basicaly that. We can polish that later if more shows up.
[09:30] <agoliveira> I'll write an email later and post on the ML and you can bash me over it if I misunderstood anything, ok?
[09:30] <bspencer> agoliveira: if we get abiword, camera, rdesktop UI, a few games ... that's pretty good for October
[09:31] <bspencer> (along with browser, media player, chat, calc, and some PIM apps)
[09:31] <agoliveira> The camera only depends (mostly) of the driver.
[09:31] <agoliveira> The rest is feasible
[09:31] <bspencer> agoliveira: yeah, we have been using a plugin-USB camera to play with it
[09:31] <agoliveira> cheatter :)
[09:31] <bspencer> catch ya later
[09:32] <agoliveira> Ok, bye
[09:40] <kwwii> agoliveira: you don't happen to know which package I need to install to get svn on Gutsy do you?
[09:40] <kwwii> forget that
[10:01] <kwwii> double w00t - the package built
[10:01] <kwwii> bspencer: write that back down, since I already did it
[10:07] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1_all.deb
[10:09] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1.tar.gz
[10:09] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1.dsc
[10:09] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1_i386.changes
[10:37] <kwwii> soooo...is there a special usplash theme package for the mobile stuff?
[10:38] <mjg59> kwwii: Not currently
[10:38] <kwwii> mjg59: hrm, I was thinking about adding a config part for the Q1 resolution, any reason that would mess things up?
[10:39] <kwwii> mess things up for the other platforms, I mean
[10:39] <mjg59> Shouldn't, no
[10:39] <mjg59> But we can't use the Q1's native resolution
[10:40] <mjg59> It's not a vesa resolution
[10:40] <kwwii> mjg59: do you know which resolution it is using and/or is there a way to fix the scaling being currently done?
[10:40] <mjg59> Theres no way to avoid the scaling
[10:40] <mjg59> What's the res on the Q1 again? 1280x600?
[10:40] <kwwii> yepp
[10:41] <mjg59> 800x600 will be the closest, then
[10:41] <kwwii> that makes my job a bit easier...I'll wait until someone tells me to change something then
[10:42] <Mithrandir> 1024x600, iirc
[10:44] <mjg59> Oh, same issue
[10:44] <Mithrandir> sure
[10:45] <kwwii> oops, sorry, I misread the 1280
[10:45] <kwwii> Mithrandir: should I put the test theme in launchpad? if so, can someone see that it is included and pointed to as default theme?
[10:46] <Mithrandir> it's a different theme than the stock usplash theme?  Sure, LP is fine, and we can take it from there.
[10:47] <kwwii> Mithrandir: sorry, I meant the hildon theme I just created
[10:47] <Mithrandir> same process; LP's fine.
[10:47] <kwwii> Mithrandir: you can download it and test it from the link I posted above if you want to test it
[10:47] <kwwii> ok, cool
[10:50] <Mithrandir> kwwii: I'm utterly, utterly overloaded right now, but I'll do it next week.
[10:50] <Mithrandir> sorry.
[10:52] <kwwii> Mithrandir: no worries
[10:53] <kwwii> I'll bug bob as well
[11:04] <Mithrandir> coolie
[11:04] <Mithrandir> I'm sure you two will be able to get good results between the two of you
[11:05] <kwwii> yeah, now that the theme itself is ready the ball is in his court :-)
[11:05] <Mithrandir> :-)
[11:19] <kwwii> soooo...anyone know where the default theme is set? (not in gconf, that much is clear)
[11:32] <kwwii> lol, the sound of one hand clapping
[11:42] <kwwii> hrm, it appears we need hildon-theme-cacher to be able to install any other theme debs anyway
[12:23] <ian_brasil> kwwii: i tested the deb ...i got dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of hildon-theme-oranblak:
[12:23] <ian_brasil>  hildon-theme-oranblak depends on hildon-theme-cacher; however:
[12:23] <ian_brasil>   Package hildon-theme-cacher is not installed.
[12:24] <ian_brasil> so it needs hildon-theme-cache ;)
[12:24] <kwwii> ian_brasil: yeah, it is not in the repo either
[12:25] <kwwii> ian_brasil: luckily the process was straight-forward once I figured it out
[12:25] <kwwii> although the tools depend on svn...there are several points we will have to tweak
[12:28] <ian_brasil> i am looking at the images now ..it looks awesome but i see some maemo images in there ??
[12:30] <ian_brasil> qgn_plat_screen_calibration.png for example
[12:32] <kwwii> ian_brasil: yeah, they are the ones we do not use anyway
[12:32] <kwwii> ian_brasil: we have a long way to go on the themeing front, I am just happy that I can even build the theme now
[12:33] <kwwii> nobody could tell me how to do it (not even the nokia guys)...on monday I'll have a long discussion with the nokia people when they get their documentation done
[12:33] <kwwii> the clock parts (digital and analog, etc.) are also not uses
[12:33] <kwwii> used
[12:34] <kwwii> I think that I am the only person who knows how far behind we are on the themeing stuff
[12:35] <ian_brasil> good luck !! ...i think there is some deep voodoo involved with the theme creation too...maximum respect for going front line with this i reckon
[12:37] <kwwii> yeah, I kinda feel like a lone soldier :p
[12:44] <ian_brasil> well, i think part of the problem is that when someone is used to developing 'closed source' it is easy not to document or to just leave hard coded paths and so on
[12:46] <ian_brasil> which means it is hard fpr others to work out what is going on
[12:46] <kwwii> yepp, definitely
[12:47] <kwwii> and I think that a lot of those working on themeing on this channel would like to keep it that way
[12:47] <kwwii> well, this project, not just this channel
[12:48] <kwwii> I think it has more to do with a lack of understanding than anything else
[12:51] <ian_brasil> or commercial pressures to just get it out the door...software is art right, not bean counting !
[12:54] <kwwii> yeah, but it could be so much easier...it seems that commercial efforts like to push off the artwork side and then get it done in a rush at the end without thinking about how to make it easy for others
[12:54] <kwwii> they seem to be used to doing things the hard way when it comes to artwork because they simply do not understand it
[12:55] <kwwii> just throw some money at it at the end and everything is good
[12:56] <kwwii> in the same sense, they are not ready to listen to good advice because they are "busy doing other things"
[12:56] <kwwii> silly, really
[12:59] <kwwii> anyway...time for bed here
[12:59] <ian_brasil> ok..this could also be seen as a pretty good opportunity to show how it should be done too though..go kwwii ;)
[01:02] <kwwii> well, in the end we have to do it the right way no matter what... I do not think that it will be acceptable otherwise
[01:02] <kwwii> just means I have a lot of work :-)
[01:15] <kwwii> hehe
[01:15] <kwwii> enjoy