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[13:12] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted edk2 [amd64] (noble-proposed) [2023.11-2]
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  You left it to boredandblogging and I to try to go up against newz2000 and joey.
[02:10] <tyche> Just remember, if you don't vote you have nothing to complain about.
[02:10] <johnc4510> i'll vote
[02:10] <johnc4510> i'll have to check the emails to the list
[02:11] <johnc4510> tyche: i like some parts of a couple of them
[02:12] <johnc4510> tyche: do you like the coloring of this site?
[02:12] <johnc4510> https://register.creative.com/register/welcome.asp
[02:12] <johnc4510> maybe not quite that dark on the backdrop
[02:13] <johnc4510> but it's soothing to the eyes i think
[02:13] <tyche> That's a little dark.  If it were softened up a bit it would be all right.
[02:13] <johnc4510> yea
[02:13] <tyche> Texture is not a BAD thing.  But the main function of a background is to remain . . . well . . . in the background.
[02:13] <johnc4510> right
[02:14] <johnc4510> lighter on it, but i like the use of it and the lighter blue in the header
[02:14] <tyche> Yep.  That works.
[02:14] <tyche> Did you see what was done on http://www.marcus-fischer.com/?page_id=2 ?
[02:15] <johnc4510> the fridge in progress is good, but it needs a background
[02:15] <tyche> Yep.  That was the gist of the idea in here, in the "meeting" you missed.
[02:15] <johnc4510> yeah and i liked that...maybe not the black header
[02:16] <tyche> The idea, not the color.  I could see that in blue.
[02:16] <johnc4510> looked impromptu to me lol
[18:24] <popey> johnc4510: any chance of http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2009/04/01/s02e01-the-return/ getting a mention in UWN?
[18:25] <johnc4510> popey: hey. looking
[18:25] <johnc4510> hang on
[18:26] <johnc4510> popey: sure np
[18:26] <johnc4510> and happy birthday
[18:26] <johnc4510> lol
[18:29] <popey> :)
[18:29] <popey> ta
[18:31] <johnc4510> :) podcast added
[18:32] <johnc4510> i only knew about your bday because it came up on skype
[18:32] <johnc4510> lol
[18:32] <popey> :)


[00:05] <darkdrgn2k> nft_compat.ko was missing
[00:24] <sarnold> ravage: btw it *is* possible to move from 32bit to 64bit :) https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading
[00:26] <sarnold> michela: wow, that's *so* strange. thanks so much for reporting back :D
[00:29] <michela> Ah. Sorry. I lied!  :D
[00:29] <sarnold> oh no :(
[00:29] <michela> It's actually Oracle Linux 8, regardlees of where it is hosted.
[00:30] <michela> Sorry about my error on that. hah
[00:30] <sarnold> michela: aha!
[00:30] <sarnold> okay, that feels like an easy mental typo, hehe
[00:31] <michela> I thought those were Rocky machines, but they were Oracle machines. It does happen in Azure and on our own hypervisors (Where we do not customise the cipher configuration in ssh server).
[00:31] <michela> hah. Yes. It's been a very hectic day. I'm blaming it on that.  : P
[00:31] <sarnold> solid plan :)
[00:32] <sarnold> I wonder they botched their terrapin patches?
[00:32] <michela> Plus, we have another thing to rant about Oracle for!
[00:32] <sarnold> shsssssh do you want to hear from their lawyers?
[00:32] <michela> True. Spies everywhere!
[00:32] <sarnold> in any event, a bug report their way would probably a good idea :)
[00:33] <michela> Yah. I'll do that. I'm just so glad it's solved. It's still somewhat of an edge case
[00:33] <michela> Thanks so much for your thoughts on this as I puzzled through it!!
[05:58] <imi> can I somehow get a real-time list of everything that is exec(3)-ed? in the left hand side panel (the tray where the apps are minimized to) I see a cogwheel icon to show up and then disappear right away. maybe it's a malware maybe it's just how things work on my machine, but I'd like to know
[06:00] <rbox> no
[06:00] <imi> maybe it has something to do with clipboard management, or kolourpaint, idk
[08:28] <blei> how do i stamp the year in the upper right corner of a page range of a pdf?
[08:36] <mentalow> heyo! what
[08:36] <mentalow> what's the best way to install tcp_bbr2 those days? I see some Ubuntu variants have it, not all..
[08:45] <CosmicDJ> mentalow: google says bbr2 is still alpha, why do you need it now?
[08:57] <mentalow> CosmicDJ: it's been in alpha since 2021 and haven't really received changes since then, as Neal is working on BBRv3 to be upstreamed.. we actually been using bbr2 on Amazon Linux for quite some time (and is shipped by default, just not enabled by default). it provides us with massive improvements to our data distribution stack (chronicle queue) as it prevents 2-4 frames burst losses from
[08:57] <mentalow> automatically causing 200ms * n RTOs.. pretty common in AWS networks
[08:58] <mentalow> if there's no prepacked, we'll just build, all good!! :)
[09:55] <oerheks> mentalow, https://wiki.crowncloud.net/?How_to_enable_BBR_on_Ubuntu_22_04 available in kernel 5.xx
[10:37] <Lantizia_> Hi, I usually set my sudoers file so that if you're in the sudo group, you can use sudo without reentering your password (at least I do on servers).  It seems pointless to login to a server via something like SSH and then immediately need to do something as a super user and enter your own password again... what matters more to me is logging who did what/when
[10:37] <Lantizia_> But I wouldn't mind is if I could somehow have it so if someone does 'sudo su' or 'sudo -i' or equivalent... that it *then* asks for their password again... to try and maybe deter people just running a root shell maybe?
[11:23] <geirha> I'm sure you can make a rule for sudo su, but not sure about sudo -i
[13:24] <FKAShinobi> Can fstab auto mount an ext4 filesystem to a zfs dataset?  I have an entry in my fstab, but does not automount. It only mounts after issuing mount /dev/sdb1 manually. Fstab lists that entry with "defaults"
[13:34] <wanwanvm> ls
[13:35] <wanwanvm> dir
[14:25] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[16:22] <elSmith-> Is Ubuntu Studio an official ubuntu flavor?
[16:24] <Eickmeyer> elSmith-: Yes
[16:24] <elSmith-> Okay cool I have an issue with a service that's not starting up on boot
[16:24] <elSmith-><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:26] <elSmith-> I type in systemctl status --list=failed and that service comes up but I can start it manually with no error
[16:26] <elSmith-> systemctl list-units --state=failed rather
[16:28] <Eickmeyer> Hmm... we don't have a 121.service file installed by default, so not sure where you got it.
[16:29] <oerheks> sounds like 'user manager for uid 121'
[16:30] <elSmith-> If I type systemctl status after boot up it tells me system degraded and when I run that service it shows up green
[16:32] <Eickmeyer> Is it affecting the functionality of something?
[16:32] <elSmith-> No I can still log in I just would like everything that's supposed to be running starting up when it needs to
[16:33] <elSmith-> It runs but in a 'degraded' fashion
[16:33] <Eickmeyer> Then I wouldn't worry about it. It's nothing that we, on the Ubuntu or on the Ubuntu Studio side, configure by default. Not sure what it means by 'degraded' but that is probably nothing to worry about.
[16:34] <pragmaticenigma> elSmith-: it might be a good idea to paste (dpaste.com) the status of the service in it's failed state, or any of the full text of the messages you're seeing
[16:34] <leftyfb> elSmith-: did you look at the journal log for the service?
[16:34] <elSmith-> If you open up a console what do you get when you type in: systemctl status
[16:34] <elSmith-> No leftyfb how do I do that?
[16:35] <leftyfb> elSmith-: is this a service running as root or is it a --user service?
[16:36] <elSmith-> leftyfb: Not sure the service exact name is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:36] <leftyfb> elSmith-: sudo journalctl -u 121.service
[16:36] <leftyfb> or whatever the name of the service is
[16:38] <elSmith-> I just got a lot of information on it don't know what I'm looking for in here but can scroll up and down
[16:38] <leftyfb> elSmith-: who made this service?
[16:38] <elSmith-> I see some bluez errors I think that's bluetooth
[16:38] <leftyfb> elSmith-: what is the name of the service?
[16:39] <elSmith-> Starting User Manager for UID 121
[16:39] <elSmith-> Very first line ^
[16:39] <leftyfb> elSmith-: what is the name of the service?
[16:39] <elSmith-> leftyfb: The service exact name is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:40] <leftyfb> who made it?
[16:40] <oerheks> "Stopping User Manager for UID 121" error after installing Nvidia drivers on Ubuntu?
[16:40] <elSmith-> Not sure
[16:41] <leftyfb> oh
[16:41] <leftyfb> hm, TIL about this service
[16:42] <leftyfb> elSmith-: what release of ubuntu is this?
[16:42] <elSmith-> I see pipewire entries and things related to sound
[16:42] <elSmith-> Ubuntu Studio
[16:42] <leftyfb> elSmith-: journalctl -u<EMAIL_ADDRESS>-S today | nc termbin.com 9999
[16:44] <elSmith-> https://termbin.com/vzsd
[16:46] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: is fluidsynth installed by default on Ubuntu Studio
[16:46] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: Yes
[16:47] <Eickmeyer> Really due to being a dependency of a synthesizer plugin.
[16:47] <leftyfb> thanks for looking. I only saw lots of complaining from fluidsynth
[16:48] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: mind taking over or do we send them to #ubuntu-studio? Seems very Ubuntu-studio-specific-app-plugin-specific
[16:48] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: That's not the issue.
[16:49] <leftyfb> oh?
[16:49] <Eickmeyer> Fluidsynth runs on startup, that's known.
[16:49] <Eickmeyer> Also potentially a known bug that I'm not sure there's a fix to yet.
[16:50] <elSmith-> Well I'm glad I came here actually
[16:51] <elSmith-> I've been looking for solutions for a couple of days now
[16:51] <Eickmeyer> Though it does seem to be fix in Noble Numbat (future 24.04)
[16:52] <elSmith-> When the next lts release came out I was going to just do a reinstall
[16:52] <leftyfb> April
[16:52] <oerheks> i find only posts related to nvidia https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/689911
[16:52] <leftyfb> though personally I tend to wait till August when 24.04.1 is released
[16:52] <elSmith-> I didn't do anything with nvidia or video drivers
[16:53] <oerheks> oke, then that is ruled out
[16:53] <leftyfb> oerheks: it's the user manager service that's failing and there's zero mention of nvidia in the log for today
[16:54] <Eickmeyer> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1053245
[16:54] -ubottu:#ubuntu- Debian bug 1053245 in fluidsynth "fluidsynth: Fluidsynth starts at boot and blocks the sound device, no obvious way to disable it" [Critical, Open]
[16:55] <Eickmeyer> It can be disabled, so it's probably running at start intentionally.
[17:11] <elSmith-> I think I removed the bluetooth and I see that in the logs, I just reinstalled it again so I'm going to see if it starts up after reboot I'll be back
[17:15] <elSmith-> Installing bluetooth manager did not effect it
[17:15] <elSmith-><EMAIL_ADDRESS>loaded failed failed User Manager for UID 121
[17:42] <the9ine> Hi
[18:17] <telgareith> I'm trying to install netdump-server (kernel panic memory dump over the network), but I can't find the package to install. What am I missing?
[18:20] <oerheks> netdump ?  https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/jammy/man4/netdump.4freebsd.html
[19:03] <telgareith> that's the sender
[19:20] <blei> i am looking for a lightweight linux distribution where i can use google chrome and xdotool and it runs in virtualbox and thats it
[19:20] <rbox> any dist can do that
[19:20] <lotuspsychje> !flavours | blei
[19:20] <rbox> you're in #ubuntu... so you should use ubuntu
[19:21] <blei> slash ignore lotuspsychje
[19:22] <bprompt> blei: lightest I take it puppy linux
[20:13] <KNERD> using Rufus, I put a Live image on aUSB flash stick with persistent storage space, However when booting up, it is like booting fresh again.  Anyone got some tips on
[20:20] <tupni> live images often write to ram and not disk, KNERD
[20:20] <tupni> even if Rufus makes a persistent storage, it doesn't mean the livecd will store its settings there.
[20:21] <KNERD> tupni: thanks. any means to try to force it?
[20:22] <tupni> you'd be better off with images that have persistent storage by default.
[20:24] <tupni> TAILS has something like that I believe, and you'll just have to figure out who else does. Or you could install to usb, which would make your USB device a whole system, it's possible to do.
[20:25] <tupni> but live images in general are not set up for persistent storage. They just write to ram and once you reboot it's gone.
[20:25] <tupni> Install to USB could be a solution for you. KNERD. Then your whole system will reside on the USB device.
[20:26] <KNERD> well, i am studying LIve Systems so I need to read what is going on the system, When using grep for example, I run out of RAM
[21:43] <arkanoid> I'm failing to build a program downloaded from the official website, so I fallback to apt sources. Once I've downloaded the source code of a package via apt-get source X, where I can read how ubuntu builds it for its repository?
[21:44] <ravage> https://wiki.debian.org/BuildingTutorial should cover it
[21:51] <arkanoid> ravage: thanks
[21:53] <dell> no agenda


[16:17] <DanC_> in natty, what's supposed to happen when I insert a USB flash drive? Is it documented? What packages are supposed to be involved?
[16:23] <DanC_> "The end of hal in Ubuntu - or almost" -- http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1676454
[16:23] <DanC_> hmm... hal is no more?
[16:26]  * DanC_ finds https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mount/USB
[16:27] <DanC_> "go to System->Preferences->Removable Drives and Media" <- I lose there. I don't see any such menu option
[16:28] <DanC_> is pmount a good idea?
[22:35] <sktn07> would anyone tell me: i have downloaded firfox-5.0.tar.bz2...how to install it?
[23:23] <EgyParadox> join #ubuntu ask there
[23:24] <EgyParadox> he left


[04:33] <dhallett> i am new to snappy ubuntu and wondering if i can setup my own snappy repo to host updates and also snappy images for raspberry pi 2?
[04:35] <dhallett> i am currently using snappy ubuntu core 16.04 on my rpi2 right now. just to let you know.
[04:36] <dhallett> i have been a ubuntu user since Ubuntu 9.04 came out.
[04:38] <dhallett> any help is appreciated
[04:40] <dhallett> i would like to start contributing back to the ubuntu community as both as a dev and a fellow ubuntu user.
[04:52] <dhallett> anyone able to help me with my problem? i also have a webdm on snappy ubuntu problem as when i go to my localip of my raspberry pi 2 it doesn't show on 16.04LTS snappy core
[04:55] <dhallett> i  thought using this irc channel would provide faster answers after searching the internet for approx 24 hours i find the forums are a tad bit slow at answering than on irc
[08:05] <dholbach> good morning
[08:11] <didrocks> good morning dholbach!
[08:11] <dholbach> salut didrocks
[09:59] <JamesTait> Good morning all!  Happy Thursday, and happy Battery Day! 😃
[10:28] <popey> When I upload a snap to the store, I have to add a release. rolling-personal, rolling-core and 15.04-core. i made the snap on 16.04. which is that?
[10:30] <longsleep> Good morning snappy, what is the best way to get snapcraft and start building a snap for 16.04?
[10:30] <longsleep> is there a ppa or should i clone from Git?
[10:34] <popey> there's a ppa longsleep
[10:35] <longsleep> popey: that one looks good: https://launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/+archive/ubuntu/snapcraft-daily
[10:56] <zyga> longsleep: get xenial or the snapcraft ppa
[10:56] <zyga> longsleep: install snapcraft and look at snapcraft examples
[10:56] <ogra_> i think you need xenial in any case, dont you ?
[10:56] <zyga> longsleep: the examples are in snapcraft source tree, you can just clone that from github as a start
[10:56] <zyga> ogra_: oh, good point
[10:57] <zyga> longsleep: so you do want to use xenial for 16.04, 16.04 requires 16.04 to develop
[10:57] <ogra_> so use a chroot (or the traditional ubuntu-core tarball)
[10:58] <longsleep> ogra_: well i got the vagrant image but ran into bug #1546108
[10:58] <longsleep> i can chroot as well but that requires root which i would like to avoid
[10:59] <noizer> ogra_ HI i will use your application to start with lighttpd but do you have an conf file?
[11:01] <ogra_> noizer, i use a script to generate both configs (config.sh) out of the default.yaml file
[11:02] <ogra_> and indeed the startup wrapper script
[11:08] <longsleep> zyga: All right, i have 16.04 now gbarbieru/xenial Vagrant box seems to work
[11:09] <longsleep> ogra_: can i still rely that python3 and openssl binaries are available in 16.04 base snappy system?
[11:10] <longsleep> ok ready to go root@vagrant:~# snapcraft -v
[11:10] <longsleep> 2.2.2
[11:11] <noizer> ogra_ is it possible to use an conf file?
[11:12] <ogra_> noizer, sure, just ship it and point the binary to it
[11:12] <ogra_> longsleep, you could never rely on that .... though the new snapcraft makes it trivial to ship your interpreter
[11:12] <noizer> ok I will first make my conf file and then try it.
[11:12] <longsleep> ogra_: ok thanks - i will check it out
[11:13] <noizer> thx ogra_
[11:14] <ogra_> longsleep, thats for snapcraft 2.1 (so, outdated atm) http://paste.ubuntu.com/15106152/ but that should give you an idea
[11:14] <ogra_> the last three lines simply pull in the py2 interpreter
[11:14] <ogra_> (it allows indeed more complex things too)
[11:14] <longsleep> yeah i guess it does
[11:15] <longsleep> thanks - i need to find a suitable version of Go first - is it in the repositories nowadays?
[11:15] <ogra_> not a go user, so i dont know :)
[11:16] <ogra_> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/golang/2:1.6~rc2-0ubuntu1
[11:16] <ogra_> looks like that is in the archive
[11:16]  * longsleep looks
[11:17] <longsleep> well apt-cache search golang-go-linux-amd64 gave nothing, lets try golang-go and see what that installs
[11:18] <ogra_> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/golang/2:1.6~rc2-0ubuntu1/+build/8984117
[11:18] <ogra_> looks like it is just "golang"
[11:19] <longsleep> probably packaging has changed, does not look too bad
[11:23] <longsleep> ogra_: looks really good vagrant@vagrant:/vagrant/Dev/spreed-webrtc$ file bin/spreed-webrtc-server
[11:23] <longsleep> bin/spreed-webrtc-server: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped
[11:23] <longsleep> hooray!
[11:24] <ogra_> yay
[11:24] <ogra_> ricmm, ^^^ !
[11:33] <ricmm> longsleep: excellent :)
[11:42] <zyga> 19:41 -!- magizian<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has quit [Client Quit]
[11:42] <zyga> 19:41 -!- magizian<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has quit [Client Quit]
[11:43] <zyga> hmm
[11:43] <zyga> sorry :)
[11:43] <ogra_> zyga, yes ?
[11:44] <ogra_> hah
[11:44]  * ogra_ was wondering what you wanted to tell us :)
[11:45] <zyga> "where has my focus gone to"
[12:06]  * zyga digs into cgroups
[12:06] <zyga> whee
[12:08] <longsleep> mhm snapcraft does not work when used on the /vagrant mount - not really a problem but it would be nice if it would work :)
[12:08] <longsleep> [Errno 1] Operation not permitted: '/vagrant/Dev/spreed-webrtc-snap/parts/glue/install/ssleay.cnf' -> '/vagrant/Dev/spreed-webrtc-snap/stage/ssleay.cnf'
[12:13] <longsleep> ogra_: do you know if the make plugin for snapcraft can run a script after clone? like ./autogen.sh
[12:14] <zyga> jdstrand: I'd like to make some modification to ubuntu-core-launcher, I'll ping you later about that
[12:14] <longsleep> ogra_: ah seems i have to ue the autotools plugin
[12:14] <zyga> jdstrand: I'd like to sync with you as soon as you are around, it's important and related to the sprint
[12:23] <longsleep> ricmm: Are you there? I got the problem that snapcraft passes a bunch of LDFLAGS in a format which seems to be wrong for the go toolchain
[12:25] <ogra_> did you use the go plugin actually ?
[12:27] <longsleep> ogra_: no, the autotools plugin, but i can fix it in the Makefile.am
[12:27] <longsleep> ogra_: i guess it is our fault and not snapcraft to blame :)
[12:28] <ogra_> or sergiuens ;)
[12:28] <longsleep> Staging spreed worked now
[12:32] <zyga> jdstrand: so (in case you read the backlog), hw-assign doesn't work with /dev/i2c-1 for the same reason it didn't work with skills, still no permission to /dev/i2c-1 -- it's in the control group, but it's just not writable and the app doesn't run as root
[12:33] <zyga> jdstrand: unless there's a logic hole somewhere I think we have to accept to chmod devices
[12:33] <zyga> jdstrand: what confuses me is that other people make similar stuff and for them it works but they were always background commands, running as root, so getting the permission
[12:35] <longsleep> ogra_: btw, snappy-tools where do i get it from for xenial?
[12:36] <longsleep> (i have ppa:snappy-dev/tools)
[12:36] <ogra_> longsleep, hmm, they should be in the archive ... if not, they are definitely in https://launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/+archive/ubuntu/image
[12:37] <ogra_> oh, wait ... -tools isnt in there
[12:37] <ogra_> i guess the above is correct
[12:38] <longsleep> what exactly? /tools has not much builds for xenial yet
[12:38] <longsleep> and /image does not seem to have it either
[12:38]  * ogra_ has honsetly not used -tools since he switched to xenial and snapcraft 2.x )
[12:38] <longsleep> how do you sideload?
[12:39] <longsleep> manually?
[12:39] <longsleep> i wanted to use snappy-remote or something
[12:39] <kyrofa> Good morning
[12:41] <longsleep> ogra_: seems i accidently created an app instead of a service :/
[12:41]  * longsleep searches for a service example
[12:42] <ogra_> longsleep, see my mycroft examplle from above
[12:42] <longsleep> ah just add the daemon key?
[12:42] <ogra_> yeah, services are dead .... they are all apps now
[12:43] <ogra_> binary vs daemon is the difference
[12:43] <longsleep> ok got it
[12:46] <longsleep> ogra_: what about the caps? Seems like snapcraft 2.2 does not like it like it is in your example
[12:46] <longsleep> probably the uses key from the examples
[12:46] <longsleep> i think i get it from the example
[12:46]  * longsleep tries it
[12:47] <ogra_> longsleep, thats the new skills system i'm completely unfamiliar with
[12:47] <ogra_> zyga might be able to point you to something perhaps
[12:47] <longsleep> https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/blob/master/examples/mosquitto/snapcraft.yaml
[12:47] <longsleep> using that example
[12:47] <ogra_> (caps are gone with 2.2+ )
[12:47] <ogra_> yeah, that looks about right
[12:48] <zyga> longsleep: no caps
[12:48] <zyga> longsleep: use the migration-skill please
[12:48] <zyga> longsleep: and tell me about the permissions your snap needs please
[12:48]  * zyga -> lunch
[12:50] <longsleep> zyga: i now use [network-listener, network-service], as the snap only listens in a bunch of ports and reads/writes to its own directories
[12:51] <longsleep> ogra_: ok i have a service now, only the config hook needs fixing and then i think i might have it
[12:52] <ogra_> wow, that was fast
[12:52] <ogra_> you rock :)
[12:52] <longsleep> well, KeyError app in the config hook still to resolve :)
[13:03] <longsleep> ah it is not even a problem in the config hook, i am just missing the config.in file in the snap
[13:08] <zyga> longsleep: nice!
[13:33] <ogra_> hmm
[13:34] <ogra_> does anyone have an idea why we ship Qt libs in our rootfs ? http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/core-image-stats/20160218.changes
[13:35] <asac> hehe
[13:35] <asac> ogra_: yes i know
[13:35] <asac> i lokoed it it just yesterday
[13:35] <asac> i think it can be fixed by seed
[13:35] <asac> we have the ubuntu-download-manager still in
[13:35] <asac> or somethign along that line used qt
[13:36] <ogra_> eek
[13:36] <ogra_> yeah, that shoul drally go
[13:36] <asac> just unseed it and see if world explodes :)
[13:36] <zyga> hmm, how do I start a background service in a snappy way?
[13:36] <ogra_> *should really
[13:36] <asac> sure it should
[13:36] <asac> dont think we want to remove it though before next week :)
[13:36] <ogra_> does snappy do the download on its own for snaps ?
[13:36] <asac> yes i think thats all old
[13:37] <zyga> ogra_: yes
[13:37] <ogra_> cool then
[13:37] <asac> just leftover from old world
[13:37] <asac> feel free to double check if you find any other rdepend
[13:37] <asac> so we are safe
[13:37] <ogra_> yeah, there is more system-image stuff still seeded i think
[13:37] <ogra_> (and hacks in the build system to set that up)
[13:37] <ogra_> sudo reboot
[13:38] <ogra_> damn ... EFOCUS :P
[13:38]  * ogra_ blames zyga ... he started that :P
[13:40] <zyga> Feb 18 13:40:23 localhost.localdomain ubuntu-core-launcher[3888]: failed to create user data directory. errmsg: Permission denied
[13:40] <zyga> hehe
[13:40] <zyga> so it seems we still have the permission denied issue, this time for services
[13:40] <zyga> so yay, more stuff to debug
[13:41] <zyga> (this is with the applied workaround)
[13:44] <zyga> kyrofa: ^^ any chance you know how to work around this?
[13:44]  * kyrofa reads scrollback
[13:44] <longsleep> ogra_: after i have fixed a bug in the config hook totally unrelated to snappy it actually works on 16.04
[13:45] <kyrofa> zyga, did jdstrand get that new profile out?
[13:45] <ogra_> longsleep, whee, awesome !
[13:45] <kyrofa> zyga, as for working around it, the same workaround he suggested before should work
[13:45] <kyrofa> Oh wait.. you said you're using that workaround
[13:46] <kyrofa> zyga, it was /** r or something, wasn't it?
[13:47] <kyrofa> zyga, check for apparmor denials?
[13:47] <kyrofa> (make sure this is the same issue)
[13:48] <kyrofa> zyga, also, you haven't rebooted since loading in that temporary profile, right? Or you've loaded it again?
[13:49] <kyrofa> zyga, alright, I will now take you up on making an edge image for me, if you have a minute. Let me take it for a spin, see what's going on
[13:50] <zyga> kyrofa: yes (I don't know if new image was built) but note I did apply the same workaround myself
[13:51] <zyga> kyrofa: how do I check apparmor denials?
[13:51] <kyrofa> zyga, either with snappy-debug or just the syslog
[13:51] <zyga> kyrofa: previously I manually straced everything, I don't know how to do that when systemd does activation
[13:51] <zyga> ok, I'll check
[13:51] <kyrofa> zyga, yeah you don't need to-- it's not that complicated
[13:52] <noizer> ogra_ how does I make some rewrite in lighttpd. it does not work from me
[13:54] <zyga> noizer: rewrite/
[13:55] <noizer> zyga do you know something about nginx on snappy?
[13:57] <zyga> noizer: no, I was just wondering what you were asking about
[13:58] <zyga> Feb 18 13:57:55 localhost.localdomain ubuntu-core-launcher[4831]: failed to create user data directory. errmsg: Permission denied
[13:58] <zyga> Feb 18 13:57:55 localhost.localdomain kernel: audit: type=1400 audit(1455803875.084:81): apparmor="DENIED" operation="mkdir" profile="/usr/bin/ubuntu-core-launcher" name="/root/snaps/" pid=4831 comm="ubuntu-core-lau" requested_mask="c" denied_mask="c" fsuid=0 ouid=0
[13:58] <zyga> kyrofa: ^^
[13:58] <zyga> seems like the same old problem
[13:58] <zyga> just root instead of $HOME
[13:58] <zyga> I'll apply the same workaround
[13:58] <zyga> kyrofa: it'd be good to check if jdstrand fixed both root and $HOME
[13:59] <noizer> lighttpd is a webserver but ogra_ worked with it before and i thought he could help me out with some problems
[13:59] <ogra_> noizer, you likely need to enable the module first
[13:59] <kyrofa> zyga, I thought the workaround was /** r though, no?
[13:59] <ogra_> somewhere in the config
[13:59] <kyrofa> zyga, oh, the write though
[13:59] <kyrofa> zyga, yeah you can take a peek inside the profile real quick if you want
[14:00] <zyga> kyrofa: I only have the workaround
[14:00]  * zyga looks at vanilla profiles
[14:00] <noizer> mod_rewrite is enabled ogra_
[14:00] <ogra_> http://redmine.lighttpd.net/projects/1/wiki/Docs_ModRewrite#Description
[14:02] <kyrofa> zyga, /etc/apparmor.d/usr.bin.ubuntu-core-launcher
[14:03]  * ogra_ grumbles about systemd log output
[14:03] <ogra_> ..."Failed with result 'exit-code'."
[14:03] <kyrofa> zyga, though have you built another image since that was released? (or is it included in the OS snap...)
[14:03] <ogra_> why cant it actually write the exit code in there
[14:03]  * ogra_ shakes head
[14:08] <kyrofa> zyga, yeah the apparmor profile uses HOME, which should be set correctly to /root. So I suspect you simply don't have the update
[14:08] <zyga> kyrofa: I have the workaround for sure so something else might be broken
[14:08]  * zyga returns to checking what
[14:09] <kyrofa> zyga, if you can upload an image somewhere I'd be happy to check it out
[14:09] <zyga> kyrofa: it's the stock image I built before, I don't want to re-flash it because I use classic dimension heavly for skill development
[14:10] <zyga> kyrofa: looking at u-c-l profile, where does it have access to $HOME/snaps?
[14:10] <kyrofa> zyga, makes sense
[14:10] <zyga> 14:58 < zyga> Feb 18 13:57:55 localhost.localdomain kernel: audit: type=1400 audit(1455803875.084:81): apparmor="DENIED" operation="mkdir" profile="/usr/bin/ubuntu-core-launcher" name="/root/snaps/" pid=4831 comm="ubuntu-core-lau" requested_mask="c" denied_mask="c" fsuid=0 ouid=0
[14:11] <kyrofa> zyga, check the last few lines of the profile (83 and on)
[14:12] <zyga> kyrofa: I don't see anything that affects $HOME in the profile
[14:12] <zyga> kyrofa: http://paste.ubuntu.com/15109503/
[14:12] <zyga> kyrofa: that's my hacked copy
[14:12] <kyrofa> zyga, yeah you don't have the update then. Here, use this:
[14:12] <zyga> kyrofa: ah, perfect, thanks
[14:12]  * zyga wonders if he can just update snappy then
[14:13] <zyga> update is not released?
[14:13] <zyga> ubuntu-core         2016-02-12 16.04.0-8.armhf canonical
[14:13] <kyrofa> zyga, http://paste.ubuntu.com/15109578/
[14:13] <zyga> trying
[14:13] <kyrofa> zyga, I think that's the OS snap... right? Which needs it needs to be rebuilt before the update is actually distributed?
[14:14] <ogra_> i'll try to get to that today and bump all os snaps ...
[14:14] <kyrofa> which means it needs*
[14:14] <ogra_> (prob iis that mvo didnt pick the same version for all of them so its all manual hackery )
[14:14]  * kyrofa is still a little fuzzy on the kernel/os/magic snaps
[14:15] <zyga> kyrofa: all good, thanks
[14:15] <kyrofa> zyga, yeah? Working now?
[14:15] <zyga> kyrofa: I found unrelated bugs in snappy (it seems that "snappy service" blindly tries to run crazy stuff that's not a service
[14:16] <zyga> kyrofa: ) but starting the systemd unit manually makes things go
[14:16] <zyga> kyrofa: so I have a skill-based service in operation :-)
[14:16] <kyrofa> zyga, ooo, that's fun. What type of crazy stuff?
[14:16] <zyga> kyrofa: background piglow
[14:16] <kyrofa> (make sure you log those!)
[14:16] <zyga> kyrofa: Feb 18 14:14:07 localhost.localdomain ./snappy[5012]: main.go:50: DEBUG: [./snappy service start] failed: unable to start pi2-piglow's service foreground: [start pi2-piglow_foreground_INANbBEQgddX.service] failed with exit status 6: Failed to start pi2-piglow_foreground_INANbBEQgddX.service: Unit pi2-piglow_foreground_INANbBEQgddX.service failed to load: No such file or directory.
[14:16] <zyga> kyrofa: note: foreground is _not_ a background command/service
[14:17] <zyga> kyrofa: the source for this snap is at github.com/zyga/snappy-pi2-piglow
[14:17]  * zyga pushes new stuff
[14:17] <zyga> done
[14:18] <zyga> (now done)
[14:18] <kyrofa> zyga, haha, I was gonna say...
[14:18] <zyga> Feb 18 14:14:07 localhost.localdomain ./snappy[5012]: main.go:50: DEBUG: [./snappy service start] failed: unable to start pi2-piglow's service foreground: [start pi2-piglow_foreground_INANbBEQgddX.service] failed with exit status 6: Failed to start pi2-piglow_foreground_INANbBEQgddX.service: Unit pi2-piglow_foreground_INANbBEQgddX.service failed to load: No such file or directory.
[14:18] <kyrofa> zyga, yeah, how does foreground turn into a service?
[14:18] <zyga> er, damn paste
[14:18] <zyga> kyrofa: it doesn't-- there is no .service file for it
[14:19] <zyga> I don't know the service generation code by heart, maybe something is wrong there
[14:19] <kyrofa> zyga, huh... but the snap.yaml looks okay?
[14:20] <zyga> kyrofa: let's see
[14:20] <zyga> kyrofa: yes
[14:21] <zyga> kyrofa: I wouldn't worry yet, this might be some old/new snappy combination
[14:21] <zyga> I may have used old (non trunk) version of snappy to instal the snap perhaps
[14:21] <kyrofa> zyga, probably-- I was through all that code recently and it seemed okay
[14:21] <zyga> kyrofa: if it happens after clean reproduction I'll start chasing it
[14:21] <kyrofa> zyga, sounds good!
[14:25] <zyga> who can I poke to review / approve squashfs app in the store?
[14:25] <zyga> pi2-piglow.zygoon revision 2
[14:26] <longsleep> ricmm, ogra_ https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc-snap - works fine for me and should build fine on arm64 as well if you run snapcraft there
[14:27] <longsleep> ricmm, ogra_ it currently get the code from develop branch as i had to fix a variable conflict in the Makefile
[14:27]  * zyga must say that the piglow executable, stripped, is comparable in size to the side of .yaml/changelog ;)
[14:48]  * jdstrand reads backscroll and sees it is resolved
[14:48] <jdstrand> yes, ubuntu-core-launcher is part of the os snap. if an os snap hasn't been generated in a while, the fix won't be there
[14:49] <jdstrand> kyrofa: and the workaround rule was '/**/ rw,' - the trailing '/' is important :) ( though /** rw certainly would've worked too, but basically invalidated confinement :)
[14:50] <jdstrand> as workarounds go, it would've been effective though :)
[14:50] <kyrofa> jdstrand, heh. Yeah, all resolved :)
[14:51] <kyrofa> jdstrand, good morning by the way!
[14:51] <jdstrand> zyga: as for chmod-- this needs architects input. sure, a chmod will make it 'just work' for the ubuntu user, but there are a lot of implications in that
[14:51] <jdstrand> kyrofa: hi!
[14:52] <jdstrand> zyga: my gut feeling is that a chmod for the device for the user and a skills assignment to the snap are conflating two different things
[14:54] <jdstrand> we don't have a strong story of users and groups on snappy yet and that probably needs to be discussed
[14:54] <zyga> jdstrand: yep, I think this needs proper design
[14:54] <jdstrand> cool
[14:54] <zyga> jdstrand: hmm, perhaps in this case we could cheat by putting that device in the cgroup (as we do) and chmodding it *there*
[14:54] <zyga> so the user doesn't get it
[14:54] <zyga> but the app does
[14:54] <jdstrand> I'm happy to be part of that conversation, but I think tyhicks should also be a part of it
[14:55] <zyga> jdstrand: ok, let's do it
[14:56] <jdstrand> zyga: I think we want pitti to have input too
[14:56] <zyga> jdstrand: shall I open a bug on this to track it?
[14:57] <jdstrand> I think that makes sense. something about requiring sudo for certain devices after skills assignment
[15:09] <ogra_> longsleep, thanks, i'll try it out before EOD
[15:15] <longsleep> ogra_: For comparison, this is the full output for snapcraft snap for me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/15111240/
[15:15] <ogra_> thx
[15:15] <longsleep> ogra_: i am not sure about the dependencies, i added some but might have missed autoconf or something else
[15:16] <ogra_> k
[15:34] <zyga> kyrofa: can you do a sanity check please
[15:34] <zyga> kyrofa: install v2 of the p2-piglow.zygoon snap from the github url I mentined earlier
[15:34] <zyga> kyrofa: and see what services you have
[15:34] <zyga> ubuntu@localhost:~$ sudo ./snappy service status
[15:34] <zyga> Snap            Service         State
[15:34] <zyga> pi2-piglow      background      enabled; loaded; failed (failed)
[15:34] <zyga> pi2-piglow      foreground      ; not-found; inactive (dead)
[15:34] <zyga> !?
[15:35] <kyrofa> zyga, I don't actually have an image where that stuff will work :P
[15:37] <zyga> kyrofa: looking at the service code
[15:37] <zyga> kyrofa: the condition to see if something is a service is bogus IMHO
[15:37] <zyga>             if serviceName != "" && serviceName != name {
[15:37] <zyga>                 continue
[15:37] <zyga>             }
[15:37] <zyga> everything else is a service
[15:37] <zyga> what?
[15:38] <kyrofa> zyga, wait... shouldn't that be using the daemon keyword?
[15:38] <zyga> in other words _everything_ is a service
[15:38] <zyga> kyrofa: exactly
[15:38] <zyga> kyrofa: I'll fix that
[15:45] <zyga> https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/pull/495/files
[15:51] <zyga> revoke works
[15:51] <longsleep> ogra_: What would i select to upload a snap to the store for 16.04? rolling-core?
[15:51] <zyga> now I only want to know which signal does systemd send to stop an app
[15:51] <zyga> (a service)
[15:52] <zyga> so that piglow can react to it by shutting down the lights before it goes
[15:52] <ogra_> longsleep, yeah
[15:55] <zyga> ah, that's SIGTERM
[15:55] <zyga> nice
[15:58] <longsleep> ogra_: mhm automated review failed, (NEEDS REVIEW) squashfs pkg lint_is_squashfs
[15:58] <longsleep> and one warning: unknown entries in package.yaml: 'apps,description,summary,uses' lint_snappy_unknown
[15:59] <ogra_> longsleep, sounds like a false positive ... beuno ^^^ ?
[16:00] <ogra_> Snapping spreed-webrtc_0.24.11-1_arm64.snap
[16:00] <ogra_> FATAL ERROR:Mksquashfs requires more physical memory than is available!
[16:00]  * ogra_ cries
[16:00] <longsleep> lol
[16:01] <longsleep> how much memory did you give that box?
[16:01]  * ogra_ hopes a swapfile will be respected
[16:01] <kyrofa> ogra_, it will
[16:01] <ogra_> cool !
[16:01] <ogra_> longsleep, its real HW with 1GB
[16:01] <longsleep> ah
[16:01] <kyrofa> ogra_, it's the only way my snaps build on the arms I have here-- a 16GB swapfile :P
[16:02] <ogra_> wow, thats bad
[16:02] <longsleep> my vagrant box has 758352 memory and the same as swap and it worked to build
[16:03] <kyrofa> ogra_, and that's a slight lie. I could make with no -j parameter and it would need less, but then it would take days
[16:04] <longsleep> ogra_: what hardware do you actually use?
[16:04] <ogra_> longsleep, dragonboard
[16:04] <longsleep> ah ok cool
[16:04] <beuno> ogra_, longsleep, it is false positives, will ve fixed soon
[16:05] <beuno> kyrofa, ogra_, you can build snaps on Launchpad!
[16:05] <kyrofa> beuno, indeed, and I plan on figuring that all out very soon
[16:05] <kyrofa> beuno, but we're doing arm64
[16:05] <kyrofa> beuno, launchpad only has 32-bit arms, no?
[16:05] <ogra_> kyrofa, hmm, do you use chroots when building ?
[16:06] <kyrofa> ogra_, no, why?
[16:06] <ogra_> kyrofa, no, LP builds our rootfses :)
[16:06] <ogra_> so there are also arm64 machines
[16:06] <kyrofa> ogra_, ah, excellent!
[16:06] <ogra_> kyrofa, because i just noticed 1GB is fine ... i just forgot to mount /proc and /sys
[16:06] <kyrofa> Ah!
[16:06] <beuno> kyrofa, it as arm64 for snaps  :)
[16:13] <ogra_> longsleep, works great !
[16:13] <longsleep> ogra_: fantastic!
[16:13] <longsleep> ogra_: thans for testing
[16:13] <longsleep> +k
[16:13] <ogra_> thansk for building !
[16:17] <ogra_> so sad the ubuntu phone browser doesnt work with it :(
[16:18] <longsleep> what html/javascript engine does that browser use?
[16:18] <ogra_> not sure ... popey ^^^ do you know ?
[16:19] <ogra_> not v8 afaik
[16:19] <popey> it's chromium, so blink.
[16:19] <ogra_> blink is the renderer
[16:20] <ogra_> and that all we use from chromium afaik ... the js engine was something different
[16:20] <longsleep> if its chromium including v8 and the media enginges in the back then it could work with if recent enough
[16:20] <ogra_> i'm pretty sure it is neither
[16:21] <longsleep> currently we support Chromium 38 or newer
[16:21] <longsleep> it might somewhat down to Chromium 30
[16:22] <longsleep> work somewhat
[16:22]  * ogra_ asked in #ubuntu-touch
[16:22] <ogra_> we onyl use blink (and even re-work it for Qt)
[16:23] <popey> "Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; Ubuntu 14.04 like Android 4.4) AppleWebKit/537.36 Chromium/35.0.1870.2 Mobile Safari/537.36"
[16:23] <popey> thats OTA-9
[16:23] <popey> so chromium 35
[16:23] <ogra_> right, doesnt talk about js
[16:23] <longsleep> well, Chromium 35 would be too old in any case to connect to any recent browser
[16:24] <ogra_> nor is it chromium beyond the renderer ... thats like using gecko with all your own stiff and showing firefox in the UA :P
[16:24] <ogra_> ok, seems i was wrong, it is actually v8
[16:25] <longsleep> question is if all the media extensions are compiled in including the capture code
[16:25] <longsleep> webrtc for that matter
[16:25] <ogra_> no
[16:25] <longsleep> dtls
[16:25] <longsleep> srtp :)
[16:25] <ogra_> neither of them because they would have to be hooked into the toolkit
[16:25] <ogra_> whicfh isnt dont yet
[16:25] <ogra_> (my webrtc bug is open since 2.5y ... eventually it will come though :) )
[16:26] <ogra_> *isnt done
[16:27] <ogra_> we have basic camera and mic access working i think ... just no webrtc integration yet
[16:28] <ogra_> i wonder how much would work if we cheated inthe UA though
[16:35] <longsleep> ogra_: what do you mean cheating in the UA?
[16:35] <longsleep> ogra_: we are doing feature detection for pretty much everything, so the UA would not help
[16:35] <ogra_> longsleep, telling the server it is chromium 38
[16:35] <ogra_> ah, k
[17:16] <gregburd> I just tried Snappy for the first time on a NUC.  I like where the project is headed, the integration of a stable upgrade image A->B (and back) is a great step forward.  It takes the best part of CoreOS and grafts it into a Ubuntu world.  Thanks!  The "snappy" package manager is headed in the right direction as well, but I have to wonder (and I'm sure I'm
[17:16] <gregburd> not the first to ask this) why not simply adopt the Nix package manager format?  Why invent yet another thing when Nix seems to have all the bases covered that snappy would like to address (and more)?
[17:17] <ogra_> does nic integrate with apparmor and seccomp ?
[17:17] <ogra_> *nix
[17:17] <ogra_> does it use squashfs files as readonly filesystems of its packages ?
[17:18] <ogra_> (i never heard of Nix, just curious)
[17:18] <gregburd> http://nixos.org/nix/
[17:19] <ogra_> seems to onyl be a package manager though ... you should take a look at snapcraft too if you look at snappy :)
[17:19] <gregburd> http://sandervanderburg.blogspot.com/2015/04/an-evaluation-and-comparison-of-snappy.html is a good evaluation by a Nix maintainer of Snappy
[17:20] <ogra_> snappy (the package manager) is very deeply integrated with the OS too ... it was essentially built around all the things we learned from the phone OS
[17:21] <gregburd> So, I'm not saying "ditch all of Snappy" I'm saying "steal liberally the ideas from Nix and integrate them into Snappy" especially the way that Nix versions and inter-relates package dependencies (sim-link tree with a hash rather than version number used to separate packages).
[17:23] <gregburd> I used to work at Amazon/AWS and there we had a similar (to Nix) way of managing package dependencies in deployment (called Brazil) with versioned trees of inter-dependent packages.
[17:23] <gregburd> I like that deep integration ogra_ that makes sense.
[17:23] <gregburd> If my mom or some other non-technical person is ever going to experience Ubuntu Desktop then we'll need that level of integration.
[17:24] <gregburd> I'm sure that the phone project pushed the developers hard in the direction of super simple/reliable package distribution.
[17:25] <ogra_> well, snappy does effectivbely not have any dependencies
[17:25] <ogra_> you bundle everything
[17:27] <ogra_> (you can have library snaps, but only within your own namespace)
[17:27] <gregburd> ogra_ isn't that going to hammer memory as each different process brings its own copy of glibc along with it?
[17:27] <ogra_> well, glibc is on the system. as long as you dont differ too much you dont really need to ship it (but you can indeed)
[17:28] <ogra_> but yeah, there is surely some duplication that will eat some diskspce at least
[17:28] <gregburd> my point is more generally related to shared libraries that will, in a snappy world, be duplicated and not shared
[17:28] <gregburd> and RAM and cache lines
[17:29] <gregburd> and that's power and performance lost
[17:29] <gregburd> no?
[17:29] <ogra_> right, yxou should just build static binaries if you can :)
[17:29] <gregburd> er, I disagree
[17:29] <ogra_> you prefer shared libs that arent shared ?
[17:29] <gregburd> how is that not going to introduce the same problem?
[17:29] <gregburd> no :)
[17:30] <ogra_> either way, the confinement wont allow apps to share resources on that level
[17:31] <ogra_> (unless the libs come from your own namespace ... i.e. libreoffice.ogra wouldnt have to ship boost but could consume libboost.ogra)
[17:31] <gregburd> In the Nix (and Brazil) world a shared lib can indeed be shared by many other packages iff those packages all required the same version/config/build/dependencies that went into building glibc
[17:31] <gregburd> So, where there is overlap the shared libraries are indeed shared
[17:31] <ogra_> right, then we are back at dpkg :)
[17:31] <gregburd> not really.
[17:31] <ogra_> you ahve deps ... you have the same old probs
[17:32] <ogra_> while bundling works just fine in the Mac and Windows world since ages
[17:32] <ogra_> and yes, there might be some penalty ... but obviously neither of the other systems is hit by that to hard
[17:33] <gregburd> So, here again we'll disagree (and as a former NeXT engineer I might have some knowledge on this topic)
[17:33] <ogra_> (well, for some value of "fine" regarding windows :P )
[17:33] <gregburd> But hey, I'm not here to start a fight
[17:33] <gregburd> Please just consider reviewing the differences between Nix and Snappy with an open mind.
[17:33] <ogra_> the point is that theoretically the snap should be completely independent from the OS
[17:33] <ogra_> and be used standalone
[17:34] <gregburd> Okay, fair point and I'm certain I don't fully get how Snappy is supposed to work as yet.
[17:34] <ogra_> so that you can upgrade/rolback both of them completely independent ...
[17:34] <ogra_> if you have deps you will hit massive probs with that rollback mechanism for example
[17:35] <gregburd> Nix can do that as well (if "them" means "various applications and their package dependencies")
[17:35] <ogra_> the typical focus is your home router where you install a NAS snap and attch disks, plug in a WLAN stick and can install an AP snap to manage your WIFI ... etc ... also robots where you can install different types of autopilots ...
[17:36] <ogra_> while the vision of snappy doesnt stop there and will go towards desktops and phones over time, IoT, small devices, cloud instances and such are the current focus
[17:37] <ogra_> i.e. at the current state it is rather unlikely you will see firefox or libreoffice snaps for such devices :)
[17:37] <gregburd> So, here's the thing.  I would have put Ubuntu into deployment today for a rollout of a large number of NUCs that have to be managed as remote Kiosks if it had: 1) an opensource Omaha-esque centralized management setup, 2) a more Nix-like structure for inter-package dependency management and 3) a way to bridge the apt/dpkg world into the Snappy world until
[17:37] <gregburd> the Snappy world is as rich as the existing apt/dpkg world is today (so a way to deal with the practicalities of an incomplete new system).
[17:37] <ogra_> but rather the small samba server with a web interface ... or a upnp server or some such
[17:38] <ogra_> while you cant bridge it, you can use snappy in classic mode
[17:38] <gregburd> I get that, but don't preclude the future use cases with decisions that focus on today.
[17:38] <ogra_> (in 16.04 that is)
[17:39] <ogra_> snappy enable-classic: snappy shell classic ... and you are in an environment with full apt support ...
[17:39] <ogra_> you will not be able to run services in there (they wouldnt survive a reboot) but you can use snapcraft in there to just rapidly snap up wnat you need and turn it into a snap package immediately
[17:40] <gregburd> so that's the model for moving existing packages forward?
[17:41] <ogra_> that the model for ... well, enabling you to turn anything into a snap quickly
[17:42] <ogra_> so there is no need to use dpkg/apt ... its just a small yaml file away to turn anything you need into a snap
[17:42] <gregburd> ok, that's promising
[17:42] <gregburd> anything like the Omaha server/service available yet?
[17:43] <ogra_> if you invest a bit more you can also write a config hook for any deb you use that can be accessed through snappys REST api
[17:43] <ogra_> never heard of omaha ... is that like puppet/chef ?
[17:44]  * longsleep has heard of Omaha beach
[17:44] <ogra_> drinks and sun !
[17:44] <gregburd> https://github.com/google/omaha
[17:45] <gregburd> https://omaha.googlecode.com/svn/wiki/OmahaOverview.html
[17:45] <ogra_> ah, no need for that :)
[17:45] <ogra_> snappy cares
[17:45] <gregburd> https://coreos.com/docs/coreupdate/custom-apps/coreupdate-protocol/
[17:45] <ogra_> there is a builtin auto-update service that queries the sotre regulary
[17:45] <ogra_> *store
[17:46] <gregburd> so, that's great but sometimes services will need to have centralized control of the rollout of new software - limit the damage, etc.
[17:46] <ogra_> if you update your snap in the store it gets pushed out
[17:46] <ogra_> the store has staging areas
[17:47] <gregburd> how are end devices assigned to various channels?
[17:47] <ogra_> so you can push stuff to the edge channel and have your QA people pull that first ... once they give green light you can switchj it over to stable
[17:47] <ogra_> thats a good question someone from the architects needs to answer :)
[17:48] <ogra_> i havent played with that yet beyond ... well snappy install <packagename>/edge  ... which is the manual variant
[17:49] <ogra_> i assume you can define it image wide via your gadget snap (which effectively defines the whole system of an image)
[17:50] <gregburd> I'll have to review that part of Snappy, but I'm not sure it provides the level of control and flexibility I needed for a service that I used to run at Amazon/AWS.
[17:50] <gregburd> interesting discussion, thanks for the time
[17:50]  * gregburd back to work!
[17:50] <ogra_> :)
[19:13] <popey> ogra_: do you have an example of a snap that needs network access?
[19:13] <popey> (I assume network is blocked by default unless specified)
[19:13] <ogra_> i think client is always allowed ... (not sure about the snapcraft 2.0 world though)
[19:15] <popey> yeah, 2.x
[19:15] <ogra_> popey, https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc-snap/blob/master/snapcraft.yaml  see the "uses" thing between line 13 and 16 ... then see line 11 how the binary/service  uses it
[19:15] <popey> I'm getting odd network errors so assume not
[19:15] <popey> thanks
[20:10] <zyga> ogra_: there ware some back and forth but I think we'll see snaps *not* getting network access in 16.04 unless they asked for it
[20:10] <zyga> popey: ^^
[20:10] <zyga> popey: so do ask for the migration-skill and for the network-client cap
[20:10] <zyga> or something
[20:11]  * zyga really EODs
[20:33] <kyrofa> ogra_, hey does classic dimension not work on the dragon image?
[20:34] <kyrofa> zyga, ah, good to know!
[20:34] <kyrofa> zyga, I think that's smart
[20:34] <kyrofa> zyga, oh you're gone
[20:35] <kyrofa> ogra_, I get 'needle "ubuntu;xenial;arm64;default;" not found
[20:37] <kyrofa> elopio, you may know something about that ^^  too, perhaps?
[20:38] <elopio> needle? no, I don't know about that. I still have to find some time to resume my dragonboard testing.
[21:12] <plars> elopio: some output from the checkbox-ized version of the tests... there are a few permission problems, possibly because we are running them from a snap? http://paste.ubuntu.com/15122636/
[22:02] <robert_ancell> elopio, can you give me some pointers on a user test for https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/pull/409?
[23:05] <elopio> robert_ancell: from your comment, I suppose we could write a test that installs and remove a snap without sudo. I know nothing about polkit, so I'm not sure how we could set up the configuration for that user.
[23:06] <robert_ancell> elopio, You'd probably want to to run a mock polkit service, but there's no mocked d-bus services in snappy currently are there?
[23:06] <elopio> robert_ancell: basically this: https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/blob/master/integration-tests/tests/installApp_test.go#L58
[23:06] <elopio> without sudo with polkit.
[23:08] <elopio> robert_ancell: no, there is not. But running the tests we have sudo, so we could get it working, I guess.
[23:08] <elopio> but before exploring the mock option, is there a reason we can't use the real service?
[23:21] <robert_ancell> elopio, I'm just don't know what environment you are running in. You probably want to test the two cases with PolicyKit (accepted / declined)
[23:23] <elopio> robert_ancell: We are running this in a snappy system in scalingstack, bbb and raspberry pi. In my ignorance, I imagine that there's a way to tell polkit that the ubuntu user can install apps. And then there's a way to tell it to revoke that permission.
[23:23] <elopio> then we just run snappy install and check the result.
[23:24] <robert_ancell> elopio, is that ubuntu-core?
[23:24] <robert_ancell> Because then we wont have polkit
[23:24] <robert_ancell> If we can write the polkit config, we can configure both cases
[23:25] <elopio> robert_ancell: so, how are you going to install polkit on your system?
[23:26] <robert_ancell> That's a challenge...
[23:59] <elopio> robert_ancell: ok, I would say that's the first step. In the ideal scenario, we will be able to install it just as you install it, and then we can run a test to make sure that we will never break your system.


[16:30] <fagan> mdke: you around?
[16:33] <fagan> Anyone want to help for a minute, im trying to close a few bugs. Im starting with Bug #442097
[16:33] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 442097 in ubuntu-docs "IE6 in Windows document" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/442097
[16:34] <fagan> Should I make a section for IE6 and another for IE7 and 8?
[16:35] <fagan> The only difference is how to open the import/export favourites and the name of a few buttons
[16:37] <fagan> I drafted up a version with a different section for IE7/8 but it looks a bit redundant because its very similar
[16:39] <Rocket2DMn> fagan, is that the mateiral in the "Web browser bookmarks" section?
[16:40] <fagan> Let me check
[16:40] <Rocket2DMn> lists IE, Firefox, and Opera
[16:40] <fagan> But its out of date
[16:41] <fagan> Its for IE6
[16:41] <Rocket2DMn> I think it's probably easiest and more user friendly to just have 3 differnet subsections for the different IE versions
[16:41] <fagan> Well IE7 and 8 are the same
[16:42] <Rocket2DMn> oh, ok, then just 2 sections
[16:42] <fagan> 6 is the problem but people still use it
[16:42] <Rocket2DMn> maybe include a line at the top to explain how to check which version they are using
[16:44] <fagan> Hmmm id just delete the IE6 stuff and just have IE7/8
[16:44] <Rocket2DMn> The material is already there for IE6, I don't see any reason to remove it, it is still a fairly common browser unfortunately
[16:45] <Rocket2DMn> if you were writing this from scratch, i might say don't bother with it, but again, the documentaiton is already there
[16:46] <fagan> I wrote it up already with both but really they arent too different. Its just where to find it and instead of finish they changed it to export.
[16:47] <fagan> Ill just submit the patch with both
[16:47] <Rocket2DMn> ok
[16:53] <pcutler|out> fagan: I'd delete the IE6 stuff as it is no longer officially supported by Microsoft
[16:54] <fagan> pcutler: Actually microsoft said about a month ago they would support it till 2011
[16:54] <pcutler> darn them  :/
[16:54] <fagan> Pissed most web devs off
[16:57] <fagan> Any commiters around? I have a fix for a typo
[16:58] <fagan> Would it be too late for a string freeze exception?
[16:59] <fagan> gtg ill mail the list about it
[17:30] <XiXaQ> setting up networked printing was very, very difficult when following help.ubuntu.com. In the end, it proved to be really easy.
[17:31] <XiXaQ> the help seems to assume that Ubuntu is being used as a slave system in a Windows environment. It only mentions how to configure a client to use a printer when it's shared by a Windows Server.
[18:58] <fagan> Hmmm strange https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultimediaApplications shouldnt players that play both music and video be considered media players?
[18:58] <fagan> And banshee should be moved because it plays videos and music
[18:59] <fagan> Why is Flash mentioned there?
[19:00] <fagan> Very strange
[19:01] <fagan> mdke: *ping*
[20:35] <mdke> fagan: *pong*
[20:57] <Zachk18> i'm on the doc-contributors team on lp by the way
[20:57] <mdke> fagan: I'm not sure I agree - I think it's helpful to have a section for video
[20:57] <Zachk18> mdke, thank you!
[20:58] <mdke> fagan: I know it's slightly confusing that some players can do both, but that can still be noted, and most of them have a "default" function (totem = video, banshee = audio etc)
[20:58] <fagan> mdke: But the problem I see with that is that they dont just do video.
[20:58] <Zachk18> most of them do
[20:58] <fagan> Banshee does both
[20:58] <Zachk18> there are few that do both
[20:58] <mdke> fagan: why is that a problem?
[20:59] <fagan> I just think to be politicly correct media players is better
[20:59] <Zachk18> media players will confuse people
[20:59] <Zachk18> i can assure you of that
[21:00] <mdke> fagan: we need to think about what the majority of the users will understand and look for, political correctness doesn't matter too much
[21:00] <Saj0577_> Zachk18: it would not as most other players are called media players take windows for an example so people are use to the terminology
[21:00] <mdke> I think that distinguishing between applications whose main function is audio and video is still sensible at the moment
[21:01] <mdke> some applications could certainly appear in more than one section
[21:01] <fagan> I just thought it needed to be mentioned.
[21:01] <mdke> sure
[21:01] <Saj0577_> what about just having a note saying some do both and have a page that lists the ones that do both?
[21:01] <fagan> Banshee should at least get a mention as a video player
[21:02] <mdke> I don't have a problem with mentioning banshee as a video player
[21:02] <fagan> Cool
[21:02] <Zachk18> so...i'm looking to get more active with the doc/wiki team
[21:03] <Zachk18> not that is what we're talking about but i figured i'd mention it
[21:03] <mdke> Zachk18: the great thing about the wiki is that it gives plenty of scope for jumping in and being active :)
[21:04] <Zachk18> mdke, well i've done some editing and i'm currently working on a blog with a friend and the udsf
[21:04] <fagan> Zachk18: check out https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/ too
[21:04] <Zachk18> launchpad is so slow right now
[21:05] <Zachk18> who runs the doc team?
[21:05] <mdke> no one
[21:05] <Saj0577_> Zachk18: look at the last word you wrote in that question :)
[21:06] <Zachk18> Saj0577, yeah...team
[21:06] <fagan> Zachk18: Its a democracy
[21:06]  * Zachk18 concedes to fagan
[21:06] <mdke> well, not a democracy. a meritocracy :)
[21:06] <mdke> as with most of Ubuntu
[21:06] <mdke> we have a structure which you can find at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
[21:06] <fagan> True
[21:06] <Zachk18> mdke, i know that page.
[21:07] <fagan> mdke: Could you look at my fix for a typo Bug #447250
[21:07] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 447250 in ubuntu-docs "Missing 'r' in 'your' in scanner text" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/447250
[21:07] <Zachk18> i'm on the https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors team
[21:07] <fagan> It just adds a letter so id say its safe for the string freeze exception
[21:08] <mdke> I think it's too late for further string changes at this stage, I'm afraid
[21:08] <fagan> Ah we really need to pick up on typos earlier
[21:09] <mdke> changing just one letter means that the whole string needs to be retranslated in each language
[21:09] <mdke> yeah, we definitely do
[21:09] <mdke> we'll look at that closely for the next release, hopefully have an earlier proof reading period
[21:09] <mdke> but we'll get the fix into the lucid branch once it opens
[21:09] <mdke> thanks for working on it
[21:10] <fagan> Ill try work through the bug list before lucid begins
[21:11] <fagan> Oh while your here whats your opinion on Bug #442097
[21:11] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 442097 in ubuntu-docs "IE6 in Windows document" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/442097
[21:12] <fagan> IE6 and IE7/8 have two very similar processes just the location is different
[21:12] <fagan> I submitted a patch that adds a section with IE7/8 but its very similar
[21:13] <mdke> if the steps are very similar, I'd tend to try and have a single section which works for both
[21:14] <mdke> users don't normally need to be walked through exactly which buttons to click word for word, it's enough that the instructions are clear in the context of the UI
[21:14] <mdke> but I think the idea is that this particular document will be retired for Lucid
[21:14] <mdke> and be replaced by the new installation guide
[21:14] <fagan> that would make sense
[21:15] <mdke> so I would say let's wait and see on that one
[21:15] <fagan> Yep ill get another bug to work on in the meantime
[21:16] <mdke> good stuff
[21:17]  * mdke tries to figure out why his live usb isn't persistent :(
[21:18] <Rocket2DMn> hey guys
[21:18] <mdke> ah, hi Rocket2DMn
[21:18] <fagan> hey Rocket2DMn
[21:18] <Rocket2DMn> what did you decide with your patch fagan , gonna keep IE6 support?
[21:19] <fagan> I was just talking with mdke and he said I should wait till lucid because that doc may be dropped in favor of the installation guide
[21:20] <fagan> So ill just wait and if its needed ill fix it up
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> cool
[21:23] <fagan> Did we include any docs about Grub2?
[21:24] <fagan> I wouldnt think we would need any
[21:27] <fagan> Ooh I just found something out of date.
[21:37] <mdke> hi starcraftman
[21:38] <starcraftman> hail mdke, sorry if you and rocket were talking in here. Was on an alt machine. I really need a way to sync my buffers and channels.
[21:39] <mdke> nope, you didn't miss anything
[21:39] <mdke> he's been telling me that you've been doing lots of goodwork on the wiki though
[21:40] <starcraftman> Oh, well ok then. Hehe, I do what I can, more of an IRC guy than mail list. Done a nice big pass over backup sections, still trying to fix up formatting and make it all work nice.
[21:41]  * fagan hates finding missing docs while in string freeze
[21:41] <mdke> he'd like to get you into the ~ubuntu-doc-wiki-admins team to help out with some of the maintenance issues with the wiki, page moving etc
[21:41] <mdke> I'm up for it if you are :)
[21:42] <mdke> the key requirements are to understand the tag system (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag) and the page deletion/moving issues (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/DeletingAndRenaming)
[21:42] <starcraftman> mdke: Aye, he just told me about that. Suppose would be nice to have power, mwa... oh, I'll be good.
[21:42] <mdke> heh
[21:44] <starcraftman> Right, I think I already read this up a while ago when I was prepping a few old pages and cleaning tags for deletion. Important thing is to delink before deltion/move else ya end up with broken links can't be tracked right?
[21:44] <mdke> starcraftman: would you fancy sending an email to the mailing list with an application to join the team? The things that the email should include are set out here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
[21:44] <fagan> Any docs meetings during the UDS (Its going to be my first :) )
[21:44] <mdke> starcraftman: exactly, yes. Basically to search for links to pages which you are moving or deleting, and use redirects if necessary (or fix the links)
[21:45] <Saj0577_> mdke: do many people get refused?lol
[21:46] <mdke> Saj0577_: I don't know, Rocket2DMn is the first person to have gone through the process (it's quite new). But the key thing is to demonstrate significant contribution to the help wiki, to demonstrate familiarity with our processes
[21:46] <mdke> if that's the case, I don't see any reason why not
[21:47] <Saj0577_> mdke: i mean for the normal wiki and system teams. (because i understand you go through a vote before become member.make sense/
[21:47] <mdke> Saj0577_: the process applies to the wiki admins and system doc committers teams, the contributors team is open for all without any discussion
[21:47] <starcraftman> mdke: sure thing, Hmmm, I'll whip something up slightly more serious. Track most of my contributions on my homepage, that sufficient, or ya want to embed in the email links to my main pages?
[21:48] <mdke> starcraftman: whatever you find most convenient, I'd say
[21:48] <fagan> saj0577: You can still submit patches ive been doing that for a while.
[21:48] <mdke> Rocket2DMn's recommendation carries quite a bit of weight :)
[21:48] <Saj0577_> fagan: yeah i have been working on it.
[21:48]  * mdke is loving all the new contributors
[21:48] <starcraftman> mdke: hehe, I'm flattered. I just do what I can :)
[21:49] <mdke> good stuff
[21:49]  * fagan has been submitting patches since the end of jaunty
[21:49] <fagan> I love just fixing bugs
[21:49] <mdke> we love fixing the bugs :)
[21:50] <starcraftman> mdke: there a vote at a meeting after application?
[21:50] <Saj0577_> i like doing doc work just sometimes get layout wrong
[21:50] <mdke> starcraftman: not a vote, just a discussion on the mailing list
[21:50] <mdke> that reminds me, we haven't added Rocket2DMn to ~ubuntu-core-doc yet
[21:50]  * mdke attends to it
[21:51] <starcraftman> mdke: k.
[21:51] <Saj0577_> Is the process to the documentation committers similar ?
[21:51] <mdke> Saj0577_: it's all here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
[21:52] <Saj0577_> mdke: yeah im reading it atm just checking.
[21:52] <mdke> cool
[21:53] <fagan> saj0577 are you familiar with bazaar ?
[21:53] <Saj0577_> fagan: thats what i was just going to say there. i am rubbish with the whole lp bazaar thing never understoof it fully no matter how many guides i read
[21:54] <fagan> branch is to get. pull is to get changes. diff is to show what you have done.
[21:54] <fagan> Thats all you really need for the moment saj0577
[21:55] <Saj0577_> fagan: so to check something how do you know what to pull though?
[21:55] <fagan> cd <directory of the branch>
[21:55] <fagan> bzr pull
[21:55] <fagan> in terminal
[21:56] <Saj0577_> fagan: but like how can you cd to it if not coonected. i get real confused lol
[21:57]  * Rocket2DMn hates CSS
[21:57] <fagan> saj0577 you need to branch first. Pull is just to update
[21:57] <fagan> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs
[21:57] <Saj0577_> Rocket2DMn: what you having trouble with?
[21:57] <Saj0577_> fagan: hang on going to try now
[21:58] <Rocket2DMn> Saj0577, a website i maintain for a friend's company, it isnt working with IE8
[21:58] <Saj0577_> so right atm i dont even have bazaar installed.
[21:58] <Saj0577_> Rocket2DMn: you found which part is causing the problem?
[21:59] <Rocket2DMn> yeah Saj0577 , i know where the problem is, it's just a matter of getting IE and FF to agree
[21:59] <fagan> Rocket2DMn: IE doesnt exactly follow standards. Have you tried using safari or chrome?
[22:00] <fagan> Microsoft are very bad at browsers
[22:00] <Rocket2DMn> fagan, i know, but it needs to work with IE
[22:00] <fagan> Ah yeah it is the most used browser even if its horrible
[22:01] <fagan> The reason why I said try using safari or chrome too is just to test it out
[22:02]  * fagan thinks webkit is excellent
[22:03] <Rocket2DMn> it works OK in FF and others
[22:03] <Saj0577_> fagan: whats name of the whole branch?
[22:03] <fagan> lp:ubuntu-docs
[22:04] <Saj0577_> its downloading the branch now
[22:04] <fagan> Good
[22:04] <fagan> So when thats downloaded you will have your own ubuntu docs
[22:05] <fagan> you can edit it on gedit and play around
[22:05] <Saj0577_> fagan: okay you got time to run through an example of how i would change something and upload it back to the server?
[22:06] <fagan> Well at the moment you cant upload it.
[22:06] <fagan> so go to places>home folder
[22:06] <fagan> then go to ubuntu-docs
[22:06] <Saj0577_> fagan: im doing it all through terminal im a temrinal guy :)
[22:07] <fagan> cd ubuntu-docs
[22:07] <Saj0577_> yep im there
[22:07] <fagan> ls
[22:07] <fagan> that gives you a list of the folders
[22:07] <fagan> choose one that sounds interests you
[22:07] <Saj0577_> yeah i know. so i know cant upload but thats pick one as a dummy as if we were going to
[22:08] <Saj0577_> gone for about-ubuntu
[22:08] <fagan> cd c
[22:08] <fagan> cd C (sorry)
[22:08] <Saj0577_> whats dif between c and po?
[22:08] <fagan> po is for translations
[22:08] <Saj0577_> oright okay. right im in C
[22:09] <fagan> gedit about-ubuntu.xml
[22:09] <Saj0577_> fagan: got it open in nano
[22:09] <fagan> nano about-ubuntu.xml
[22:09]  * Saj0577_ never understoof xml
[22:10] <fagan> its docbook
[22:10] <fagan> its similar to html
[22:10] <Saj0577_> oright okays :)
[22:11] <fagan> so there you can change what you want. When you save the file bzr picks up on it.
[22:11] <Saj0577_> fagan: do i not need to check before i save that someone else has not already made a change since i pulled it?
[22:12] <fagan> Well no
[22:12] <Saj0577_> how come?
[22:12] <fagan> They more than likely didnt change anything you changed
[22:12] <fagan> and bzr diffs only contain stuff you change
[22:13] <Saj0577_> argh right so lets say ive changed some spelling and saved nano and closed it then do i need to do anything?
[22:13] <fagan> you need to go back to the root of the ubuntu-docs folder
[22:13] <fagan> so cd .. and cd .. again
[22:14] <fagan> then bzr diff
[22:14] <Saj0577_> hen thats that done yep?
[22:15] <fagan> so it shows you what you changed, then you just copy that into a file ending in .diff and attach it to a bug on launchpad
[22:15] <fagan> or post it to the mailing list
[22:15] <fagan> Just ask for a commiter to push it for you
[22:16] <Saj0577_> okay so just send an email with the copy of it or send an email with an attached .diff?
[22:16] <j1mc> hi all
[22:16] <fagan> well you can do either if you want
[22:17] <fagan> j1mc: hello
[22:17] <Saj0577_> alright. and then do i just run bzr pull before i start any work like if not checked for few days?
[22:17] <Saj0577_> j1mc: hey
[22:17] <j1mc> :)
[22:17] <fagan> saj0577 yep
[22:17] <Saj0577_> fagan: well thats nice and easy why cant the guides be that simple. thanks for that by the way that was great :)
[22:18] <fagan> saj0577 no probs
[22:19] <Saj0577_> time to sort out claws again get all ym mail back on it
[22:24] <starcraftman> mdke: k, mail sent to list, I hope it went through.
[22:24] <starcraftman> I dunno why, sporadically I get trouble.
[22:25] <Saj0577_> starcraftman: well i got it
[22:25] <starcraftman> ah good.
[22:25] <Saj0577_> comes up as unknwon 3000 :S lol
[22:26] <starcraftman> that is my email account.
[22:26] <starcraftman> :)
[22:26] <Saj0577_> lol fair does
[22:26] <starcraftman> I'm not a fancy ubuntu member yet to get one with starcraftman or so.
[22:26] <Saj0577_> starcraftman: you use an email client?
[22:28] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: kontact, got 4 accounts now to manage with it.
[22:28]  * fagan uses evolution, ubuntu one address book is awesome
[22:29] <Saj0577_> imap or pop?
[22:29] <fagan> I use pop
[22:29] <Saj0577_> why?(just looking for incite)
[22:29] <fagan> imap is a little bit harder on servers
[22:29] <fagan> because you are always connected
[22:30] <fagan> pop you ping the server and ask it if it has anything then close the connection
[22:30] <Saj0577_> if i use multiple computers want all mail read on one machine to appear as read on them all and all mail in one sentbox in the sentbox off all the other clients what should i use pop or imap?
[22:30] <fagan> imap
[22:31] <Saj0577_> thought so :)
[22:31] <fagan> because the mail is still on the server
[22:31] <Saj0577_> where as pop copies it onto machine yeah?
[22:31] <fagan> Yep
[22:31] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: imap all the way. Pop on another just so I see what came in.
[22:31] <Saj0577_> sweet i always forget when setting up.
[22:32] <starcraftman> imap is awesome. gmail did that right. Wish they did ldap already.
[22:33] <Saj0577_> ldap?
[22:33] <fagan> starcraftman: you going for the wiki admin team?
[22:34] <starcraftman> fagan: that is so,
[22:35] <fagan> starcraftman: Ill +1 that
[22:37] <starcraftman> fagan: hehe, well discussion is on list.
[22:37] <fagan> Just sent it on
[22:37] <Saj0577_> starcraftman: il +1 it cne get client sorted
[22:39] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: huh? what client?
[22:39] <Saj0577_> starcraftman: just installing and configgin mail client not done it on this computer pet
[22:40] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: ah, i see.
[22:40] <starcraftman> kontact or evolution?
[22:40] <Saj0577_> starcraftman: nooo claws :)
[22:40] <Saj0577_> evolution is to heavy i think. and kontact is similar.
[22:40] <fagan> evolution in karmic has some real interesting stuff
[22:41] <fagan> you can sync your contacts up with ubuntu one (via couchdb)
[22:41] <fagan> its very easy
[22:41] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: ah, cool. K, well hope works, never tried claws.
[22:42] <Saj0577_> fagan: does it need all the gnome stuff for it to work though?
[22:42] <fagan> saj0577_: yep
[22:42] <Saj0577_> pfft :(
[22:42] <starcraftman> fagan: ya could manually do that though with any app long as the contact data stored easily. I suppose is nice if automated.
[22:43] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: I know, I want kde client.
[22:43] <fagan> I know but its nice just to have it there by default
[22:44] <Saj0577_> dont liek gnome anymore though.
[22:45] <fagan> Gnome 3.0 is coming
[22:45] <fagan> lucid+1
[22:45] <Saj0577_> if its a real improvement might try it.
[22:46] <fagan> Its awesome already
[22:46] <fagan> complete redesign of the desktop experience
[22:46] <fagan> I cant wait for it
[22:46] <fagan> Im testing it out now
[22:48] <Saj0577_> wahey got one of my mail accounts to work
[22:50] <starcraftman> fagan: I dunno, heard lots of complaints. I'm pretty happy with kde to be honest, 4.3. And I used to be a pretty avid gnome user.
[22:51] <fagan> starcraftman: Me too but its a redesign to use newer technology, redesigns always are controversial.
[22:52] <fagan> Clutter is the new hotness
[22:52] <starcraftman> lol
[22:52] <fagan> The current interface is plain and dated, Gnome-shell is special
[22:53] <fagan> its flashy and has all the bling of the red light district
[22:53] <starcraftman> 3.0 is basically gnomeshell?
[22:53] <fagan> That and a few other new things like zeitgeist. I love zeitgeist
[22:54] <starcraftman> well now I'm not excited.
[22:54] <fagan> it journals all of your activities (firefox history, recent documents etc)
[22:54] <fagan> Its made to make life handy
[22:55] <starcraftman> fagan: some don't like idea of all your history tracked.
[22:55] <fagan> You will be able to turn it off
[22:56] <fagan> and ignore certain things
[22:56] <fagan> but also it can be used for parental control
[22:57] <starcraftman> ya, like parental control has ever worked.
[22:57] <starcraftman> hehe
[22:57] <fagan> other than zeitgeist and Gnome-shell.  Curiosity makes world go round.
[22:58] <Saj0577_> fagan: isntr that part of growing up
[22:59] <fagan> but still its bad for kids <10 to be looking up that sort of thing
[22:59] <fagan> and some parents want the control
[22:59] <Saj0577_> oyeah sure at that age
[22:59] <Saj0577_> but at that age dont really need to be on internet tbh
[22:59]  * starcraftman shrugs.
[22:59] <starcraftman> Saj0577_: lol, try and stop em. society is built on net.
[23:00] <fagan> but most kids now have their social networking
[23:00] <Saj0577_> social networking is fore 13+ according to the sites
[23:00] <fagan> googling and tweeting is part of kids vocabulary
[23:01] <fagan> but most people below that at least where I am from (Ireland) are on those sites
[23:02]  * fagan thinks about making a blog post about this
[23:02] <starcraftman> fagan: well, I dunno. not having kids any time soon so suppose it's not a care of mine. I'm pretty liberal though, I wouldn't freak out and lock kids down as I've seen sometimes.
[23:02] <starcraftman> fagan: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Blogs are evil.
[23:02] <starcraftman> :p
[23:03] <starcraftman> I don't mind, just darn if everyone don't have one now.
[23:03] <fagan> Id suggest just having an alert system to say the kid look at this site
[23:03] <starcraftman> I wait for someone to make an anti-blog.
[23:03] <fagan> why? lol
[23:04] <starcraftman> Because the internetz can!
[23:04] <starcraftman> come to think of it, I better go domain squat :p
[23:04] <starcraftman> next thing ya know, I'll be selling it for cool mil.
[23:04] <fagan> Spam already makes it hard to make a blog
[23:07] <starcraftman> re-re-captcha to the rescue.
[23:07] <fagan> Yep
[23:08] <starcraftman> soon won't be able to click a link on net without a captcha.
[23:08] <starcraftman> captcha guys make mony off that?
[23:08] <fagan> dont know
[23:08] <fagan> I just use akismet
[23:38] <fagan> Rocket2DMn: I agree with what you were saying but there is no other way to change the timeout
[23:39] <Rocket2DMn> sure fagan
[23:40] <Rocket2DMn> fagan, according to the wiki page, you're suppose dot use either /etc/default/grub or /etc/grub.d/ directory with custom entries
[23:40] <Saj0577_> missed all that cos of netsplit
[23:40] <fagan> I suppose I should ask someone on the kernel team or whoever takes care of GRUB about what to do
[23:40] <Rocket2DMn> you didnt miss anyhting Saj0577 that's the first i've said
[23:40] <Rocket2DMn> sure fagan , though i think in the end it will come down to us pulling information from grub2 documentation (like on that wiki page) and testing it ourselves to make sure it works
[23:41] <fagan> Thats fine
[23:42] <fagan> Its simpler sometimes just asking and seeing where that gets you
[23:42] <Rocket2DMn> were you trying to get something into Karmic documentation for it?
[23:43] <fagan> nope im working on bugs for lucid
[23:43] <fagan> im just starting early
[23:44] <Rocket2DMn> ah ok, i asked mdke yesterday when the karmic branch would be opened and lucid set as the dev branch, but i signed off before i got a repsonse
[23:45] <Rocket2DMn> until then, I don't think we can really add in lucid documentation yet
[23:45] <Rocket2DMn> unless we branch from an earlier revision i guess
[23:45] <fagan> I know ill just keep attaching patches for what I can and when lucid opens commiters can take them
[23:46] <Rocket2DMn> okie dokie
[23:48] <fagan> Im just reading the wiki to see what I can find


[05:54] <PatrickDickey> key> Hi there. I'm having a minor issue with Mythtv on Mybuntu. It says "No Device to Eject" when I try to eject the DVD. If it matters, it's a frontend only machine with a remote backend (and the DVD drive is on this machine).
[05:55] <PatrickDickey> I'm running mythbuntu 14.04 also.
[05:56]  * PatrickDickey is now away - Reason :
[06:26]  * PatrickDickey is no longer away - Gone for 30 mins 19 secs
[06:55] <PatrickDickey> key> Hi there. I'm having a minor issue with Mythtv on Mybuntu. It says "No Device to Eject" when I try to eject the DVD. If it matters, it's a frontend only machine with a remote backend (and the DVD drive is on this machine). this is on mythbuntu 14.04
[07:01] <croppa_> Anybody else having trouble with ubuntu 14.04 64 Bit uploading the firmware to Dvico cards?


[11:01] <pzn> I have an HD with filesystem error. some directories are weird. what is the filename of some file that exists in a bzr repository for me to search for?
[21:16] <daveb_> When merging in a branch, its wanting to delete some files, but I cant find a commit in that merge that deletes those files :(