[14:52] <OvenWerks> Is this a meeting day?
[15:30] <ErichEickmeyer> Yes. I just woke up. I am putting together an agenda.
[15:31]  * ErichEickmeyer probably just had the best night's sleep in YEARS
[16:47] <OvenWerks> Cool, as happens I just uploaded the latest version of -controls
[16:47] <OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages
[16:48] <ErichEickmeyer> Sweet. I just did more rebranding on -welcome.
[16:49] <ErichEickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-welcome
[16:49] <ErichEickmeyer> I think once I get through the rebranding, then the real customization can begin.
[16:50] <OvenWerks> There are many changes... and it is certainly a work in progress (there is even a call that is not yet called) but the cpu governor now works on 18.04-10 and more than one USB device works, MIDI USB devcies don't mess things up...
[16:51] <ErichEickmeyer> Nice. Keeps getting better!
[16:55] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: no recipe? or not ready for that yet?
[16:57] <ErichEickmeyer> Not ready. Also, this is a fork directly from github, so that might be why.
[17:03] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: no yu have to put a recipe in.
[18:00] <ErichEickmeyer> This just forked too: https://code.launchpad.net/~eeickmeyer/ubuntustudio/+git/ubuntustudio-boutique
[18:00] <ErichEickmeyer> No changes made yet.
[18:03] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Also, just checked the ubuntu-mate-welcome repo, and there's no recipe there either.
[18:12] <eylul> I am not sure if i will make to the meeting today. but main items in case I can't.
[18:12] <eylul> 1) wallpaper: yes you can notice the difference between 1920x1080 resolution (Full HD) and 3840x2160 (4K) on a HiDPI screen. (I use a 17" screen for reference). As OvenWerks found out that the performance is not affected, I'd argue lets go with 4K to future proof. A lot of new laptops even come with higher resolution screens, and we argued before that we are not aiming for after the market that much. :)
[18:13] <eylul> 2) I think everyone arguing against KDE and for gnome mentioned the wacom tablet issue. This is something we have discussed before and had plans on. (before I had to vanish) I'll send an email on the topic, now. :)
[18:16] <OvenWerks> ok
[18:16] <ErichEickmeyer> :thumbsup:
[18:16] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: it would have a snap recipe.
[18:16] <OvenWerks> They use a sanp package
[18:20] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looking here, it points to the snap package, but I can't figure out where the recipe is: https://code.launchpad.net/~flexiondotorg/+snap/ubuntu-mate-welcome
[18:20] <ErichEickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mate-dev/ubuntu-mate/+git/ubuntu-mate-welcome/+ref/before-boutique
[18:22] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: there is on that last page, a link that says Create snap package
[18:23] <OvenWerks> You can redirect it to make a snap package in any ppa.
[18:23] <OvenWerks> however, if it could be made to create a non-snap package... that could be an advantage too.
[18:25] <ErichEickmeyer> I may have cloned the wrong repo... the new one is "before boutique". Now that I think about it, Wimpress did say something about there being a new version with a separated boutique.
[18:25] <OvenWerks> The welcome is like a menu that calls separate processes yes.
[18:26] <ErichEickmeyer> Also, the docs says it can be built without snap, it even includes a debian directory.
[18:27] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, looks like development stopped on the repo I initiallly cloned and now everything is in the "before-boutique" version. back to the drawing board.
[18:28] <ErichEickmeyer> Or, maybe not. I'm so confused.
[18:28] <OvenWerks> I have noticed that for a snap package to run, it needs the snap daemon to be running, That creates a loopback directory which it fills for each snap program... after the program ends, trhose directories are still there.
[18:30] <ErichEickmeyer> Could it be that those directories remain there for the next time it's run?
[18:30] <OvenWerks> I am sure that is true... but is that a good thing?
[18:31] <ErichEickmeyer> Something tells me that's by design. Remember, it's not like a docker container.
[18:35] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: yes, that is great if you have to have a non-standard lib, but if it can run without a snap, it will use less system resourses.
[18:37] <ErichEickmeyer> I'm not 100% sure that's true. I'm trying to get someone in here to answer questions about snaps, since it's a bit over my head.
[18:42] <Son_Goku> meep
[18:43] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Hi!
[18:43] <Son_Goku> Hey
[18:43] <Son_Goku> I'm one of the maintainers of the Snappy stack in Fedora
[18:43] <Son_Goku> so I may be able to answer some of your questions w.r.t. snaps
[18:43] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Awesome! That will be helpful!
[18:44] <ErichEickmeyer> Our meeting will officially kick-off in about 15 minutes, but OvenWerks and I have been unofficially talking about snaps and he has a few concerns.
[18:45] <Son_Goku> sure
[18:45] <Son_Goku> be aware that much of my experience is related to the work I've had to do to integrate snaps in Fedora
[18:45] <Son_Goku> but a good amount of it is fairly generic
[18:46] <ErichEickmeyer> Well, knowing how snaps work, it should be relatively cross-platform.
[18:46] <Son_Goku> ehh, mostly
[18:46] <Son_Goku> snaps are unfortunately more complex than that
[18:46] <ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux: o/
[18:47] <captain-tux> Hello :)
[18:47] <Son_Goku> OvenWerks, what concerns do you have?
[18:48] <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, I'm also the maintainer of Flatpak for Mageia, so if you have any questions w.r.t. snaps vs flatpaks, I can hopefully help there too
[18:48] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Cool!
[18:49] <ErichEickmeyer> He might be AFK at the moment.
[18:49]  * Son_Goku shrugs
[18:49] <Son_Goku> well, do _you_ have any questions, then?
[18:50] <ErichEickmeyer> Kindof, but mine are closer to Launchpad-based, e.g. snap recipes.
[18:50] <ErichEickmeyer> And need to be directed at the original authors of a package I'm forking.
[18:51] <Son_Goku> ah
[18:51] <Son_Goku> snap recipes are a weird aspect of snaps that I don't use
[18:51] <Son_Goku> after all, Launchpad isn't particularly useful for building snaps within Fedora infrastructure ;)
[18:52] <ErichEickmeyer> Of course.
[18:52]  * ErichEickmeyer used Fedora JAM before joining the Ubuntu Studio team.
[18:52] <Son_Goku> aww, you left us for Ubuntu :'(
[18:53] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I saw a ship sinking and, since I have a ton of high-level Ubuntu contacts, decided to help keep the ship afloat.
[18:53] <Son_Goku> the Ubuntu Studio ship?
[18:54] <ErichEickmeyer> Yes. An unfortunate series of events for the project leader led the project to stagnate for about two years. You'll notice the only major difference between 16.04 and 18.04 is the packages were updated.
[18:55] <ErichEickmeyer> Basically, the project leader couldn't continue, and neither could the release manager, so a council has been formed and now I'm the release manager.
[18:56] <Son_Goku> lucky you, I guess
[18:56] <ErichEickmeyer> Depends on how you look at it. I also chair the council.
[18:56] <Son_Goku> I'm now one of the dev team leaders for Mageia (which consequently makes me a member of the Mageia Council)
[18:57] <Son_Goku> I've also gotten pretty deeply involved across the package management stack used in nearly all RPM based Linux distributions
[18:57] <Son_Goku> which has been an interesting change of late
[18:58] <ErichEickmeyer> Awesome. I did a number of items with openSUSE and Fedora on my own repo in Open Build Service, but never really got involved with the projects themselves.
[18:58] <ErichEickmeyer> My involvement with Ubuntu Studio has been a whirlwind.
[18:59] <ErichEickmeyer> I use the tools in my regular job, so there's incentive.
[18:59] <Son_Goku> which is more or less how this happened for me
[18:59] <Son_Goku> I'm now an active contributor in Fedora, Mageia, and openSUSE
[19:00] <Son_Goku> and semi-active in a few others...
[19:00] <ErichEickmeyer> #startmeeting
[19:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 26 19:00:16 2018 UTC.  The chair is ErichEickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[19:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[19:00] <ErichEickmeyer> #chair OvenWerks
[19:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks
[19:00] <ErichEickmeyer> #chair eylul captain-tux
[19:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul
[19:00] <ErichEickmeyer> #chair krytarik
[19:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul krytarik
[19:01] <ErichEickmeyer> And that's all I see active atm.
[19:02] <OvenWerks> ok
[19:02] <ErichEickmeyer> Let's start with -controls since you're here, OvenWerks.
[19:02] <ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-controls
[19:03] <OvenWerks> -controls is still moving. It can handle more than one USB device and is no longer confused by midi usb devices
[19:03] <ErichEickmeyer> Excellent.
[19:03] <ErichEickmeyer> That's amazing progress.
[19:03] <OvenWerks> the cpu governor now works on 18.* and up
[19:04] <ErichEickmeyer> Awesome. Have you thought about indicator-cpufreq? I use it and it comes in handy.
[19:04] <OvenWerks>  I don't remember If I have yet removed what would work on 16.*
[19:04] <ErichEickmeyer> Are we planning on backporting to 16.04?
[19:04] <OvenWerks> -controls just sets it right now and at next boot. WHere ever it was at shutdown it should come up the same way
[19:05] <OvenWerks> I do not know if the mods to work in 18.* would break 16.* or not.
[19:05] <ErichEickmeyer> I say we don't worry about backporting, since we're ultimately going for 18.10 and have the polish done by 20.04.
[19:06] <ErichEickmeyer> Gives us a couple years to get it right, know what I mean?
[19:06] <OvenWerks> I am finding though, that the version of jackdbus we have doesn't seem as stable at "switch master" as it was when I started
[19:07] <ErichEickmeyer> Huh. bug in jackdbus?
[19:07] <OvenWerks> This means that for robustness, it appears jack will have to be restarted for master device change... at least some of them
[19:08] <OvenWerks> I am not sure if this is a change in jack or alsa
[19:08] <ErichEickmeyer> Not surprising considering the number of things that have to be restarted for jack to apply changes.
[19:09] <ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, great.
[19:09] <OvenWerks> anyway, a latest package is available to try in: https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages
[19:09] <ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
[19:10]  * ErichEickmeyer still has yet to move to cosmic from bionic.
[19:10] <ErichEickmeyer> Now, since I don't want to waste Son_Goku's time...
[19:10] <ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-welcome
[19:10] <OvenWerks> unchecking the start jackd with session start option will leave the system as stock
[19:10]  * Son_Goku waves
[19:11] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Some people had questions about that, and that's what I told them.
[19:11] <OvenWerks> it is the one advantage over Cadence
[19:11] <ErichEickmeyer> So, for welcome, it's a fork of ubuntu-mate-welcome which is pre-installed as a snap.
[19:11] <Son_Goku> :/
[19:12] <ErichEickmeyer> But, OvenWerks has concerns about snap, to quote: "I have noticed that for a snap package to run, it needs the snap daemon to be running, That creates a loopback directory which it fills for each snap program... after the program ends, trhose directories are still there."
[19:12] <Son_Goku> the thing that was forked from antegros which was forked from korora, right?
[19:12] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Correct.
[19:13] <ErichEickmeyer> I speculate that is by design for the next time the program loads.
[19:13] <ErichEickmeyer> Either way, it appears that it can be packaged as a native .deb file, so I'm not too concerned.
[19:13] <Son_Goku> technically, you need the snappy daemon running for two purposes:
[19:13] <Son_Goku> 1. Managing the snaps on the system
[19:14] <Son_Goku> 2. Discovering snaps from the singular Snap Store
[19:14] <Son_Goku> snapd is not necessary for the actual usage of snaps, because snaps are mounted by systemd, through mount units
[19:14] <Son_Goku> the reason the snaps stick around is because snapd writes them as persistent mount units
[19:15] <Son_Goku> you'll find them in /etc/systemd/system
[19:15] <Son_Goku> the snappy daemon does generally need to be running for any of the snap tooling to work, but for snap applications themselves, they should not require snapd
[19:15] <Son_Goku> this is why I'm not personally a fan of snapping applications that interface with snapd
[19:15] <Son_Goku> it creates an awful catch-22 that might not work out so nicely
[19:16] <OvenWerks> So an application installer may not be a good canidate
[19:16] <ErichEickmeyer> snapd runs by default in every flavor of Ubuntu as of 18.04, I believe.
[19:17] <Son_Goku> OvenWerks, the tricky problem is how do you get people to get it?
[19:18] <Son_Goku> and last I heard, there have been difficulties with preloading certain classes of snaps on the ISO
[19:18] <OvenWerks> apt?
[19:18] <Son_Goku> well, if it's a snap, then it becomes problematic
[19:18] <Son_Goku> but if it's a regular system package, this is easy
[19:19] <ErichEickmeyer> This would be installed by default on Ubuntu Studio from 18.10 onward. (-welcome)
[19:19] <ErichEickmeyer> As it currently is on U-MATE and U-Budgie.
[19:19] <Son_Goku> I wish all the forks of Korora's welcome would actually help those guys out (*sighs*)
[19:19] <Son_Goku> anyway, that's sorta beside the point right nwo
[19:19] <Son_Goku> *now
[19:20] <Son_Goku> but you probably don't want the snappy code running while it's in live-media mode
[19:21] <Son_Goku> I've observed issues with snaps + casper livefs
[19:21] <ErichEickmeyer> It doesn't run in the live media.
[19:21] <Son_Goku> then you should be fine
[19:21] <ErichEickmeyer> The -welcome app is to run after installation.
[19:22] <Son_Goku> then yeah, I wouldn't worry about it
[19:22] <Son_Goku> it's working as designed
[19:23] <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, OvenWerks: anything else?
[19:24] <ErichEickmeyer> That's all I have for now. Could we ping you in the future?
[19:24] <ErichEickmeyer> You've been very helpful
[19:24] <OvenWerks> how do snaps deal with plugins
[19:25] <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, sure
[19:25] <Son_Goku> I tend to hang out everywhere but the ubuntu channels ;)
[19:25] <Son_Goku> but notably, I'm in #snappy
[19:25] <Son_Goku> OvenWerks, in what sense?
[19:26] <OvenWerks> both graphics applications and audio applications have plugins.
[19:26] <OvenWerks> if  daw is run as a snap, where would it see a plugin?
[19:26] <OvenWerks> gimp uses plugins as well
[19:27] <Son_Goku> it doesn't
[19:27] <Son_Goku> that's (hopefully) the point
[19:27] <Son_Goku> it would only see stuff that's part of the snap itself
[19:27] <OvenWerks> about what I thought
[19:27] <Son_Goku> flatpak and snap have some concepts around supporting plugin models
[19:27] <ErichEickmeyer> So, one would have to essentially "kitchen sink" the plugins to the snap to get the plugins into the app.
[19:28] <Son_Goku> but it's kind of weak
[19:28] <OvenWerks> we have had people suggest a snap for problem applications lib wise that have plugins.
[19:28] <Son_Goku> especially in snaps, where if you do "classic confinement", you're technically exposing the host system up to the snap
[19:28] <Son_Goku> so weird things happen
[19:28] <OvenWerks>  calf plugins already do that
[19:29] <OvenWerks> (no snaps involved)
[19:29] <Son_Goku> flatpak has a concept of "extending" application flatpaks with addons, which kind of goes towards what you're talking about
[19:29] <Son_Goku> that's how flatpak supports proper GTK/Qt themes for apps, for example
[19:29] <Son_Goku> but for snaps, you'd need to write an independent snap that would "bridge" to the main one
[19:29] <Son_Goku> and even then, I'm not terribly sure that would work, because unlike flatpaks, snaps don't overlay the filesystem structures on top of each other
[19:31] <Son_Goku> I'd probably suggest if you wanted to deliver apps as snaps that typically use plugins, bundle all the plugins into the snap
[19:31] <OvenWerks> That sounds like a nightmare
[19:31]  * Son_Goku shrugs
[19:31] <ErichEickmeyer> That settles it then.
[19:31] <Son_Goku> if something has changed about it, I haven't heard about it yet
[19:32] <OvenWerks> Thats it for me then.
[19:32] <ErichEickmeyer> #agreed Ubuntu Studio will not be including snaps of GIMP or any other program that uses plugins until snaps can support plugins.
[19:32] <Son_Goku> but as far as I'm aware, that's the sitch
[19:32] <Son_Goku> but yes, flatpak supports this: https://blog.tingping.se/2018/03/18/flatpaking-plugins.html
[19:33] <ErichEickmeyer> Interesting.
[19:33] <ErichEickmeyer> Well, we need to move on to our next topic or we'll be here all day (and I do have to head to work in about 2 hours).
[19:33] <Son_Goku> heh
[19:34] <ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-plasma
[19:34] <Son_Goku> I believe flathub ships some apps as flatpaks with extensions
[19:34] <Son_Goku> so take a look at that
[19:34] <Son_Goku> ooh, plasma for ubuntustudio :)
[19:34] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Any progress on Plasma? I've been meaning to get a couple screenshots as proof-of-concept.
[19:34] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Yep. We announced we'd be adding it as a DE two weeks ago. :)
[19:34] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: you probably don't want the current theme as I am using it :)
[19:35] <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, so like Fedora jam (which also uses Plasma) :)
[19:35] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I doubt most people would! haha
[19:35] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: And KXStudio.
[19:36] <OvenWerks> https://i.imgur.com/wHegBQl.png
[19:36] <ErichEickmeyer> We did quite a bit of testing before landing on Plasma for our first +1 DE. Xfce will remain default for now.
[19:36] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yep, very close to what I have.
[19:36] <ErichEickmeyer> Except the theme where I stuck to Breeze on the windows.
[19:37] <OvenWerks> This is breeese I think but I edited the scheme
[19:37] <OvenWerks> (colour scheme)
[19:37] <ErichEickmeyer> With Breeze being the default for Plasma, I recommend keeping it simple and sticking to the default for 18.10 just to lighten the workload.
[19:37] <OvenWerks> I have no problem with that
[19:37] <OvenWerks> Mostly I made these changes to see how far I could go
[19:37] <ErichEickmeyer> Besides, it already has a dark variant for people who prefer to work that way as well.
[19:38] <OvenWerks> (without having to downlaod anything)
[19:38] <ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Are we working on a settings package for that?
[19:38] <OvenWerks> it's stock
[19:40] <OvenWerks> if i understand what you are asking
[19:40] <OvenWerks> I have not yet started on a desktop-plasma package because I am working on -controls.
[19:40] <ErichEickmeyer> No worries.
[19:40] <ErichEickmeyer> I was just curious.
[19:41] <ErichEickmeyer> I'd consider solidifying -controls a higher priority this early anyhow since it's a bit more technical.
[19:41] <ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, with that, I think we can move on.
[19:42] <ErichEickmeyer> #topic wallpapers
[19:42] <OvenWerks> k
[19:42] <ErichEickmeyer> eylul already posted earlier, so I'll just take what she wrote and put it in the meeting notes.
[19:42] <ErichEickmeyer> Do you have anything to add?
[19:43] <OvenWerks> not at this time.
[19:43] <eylul> *was actually lurking here for whole time*
[19:43] <ErichEickmeyer> LOL!
[19:43] <eylul> *continues to lurk*
[19:43] <ErichEickmeyer> The mouse speaks!
[19:43] <OvenWerks> The peanut gallery has been so quiet.
[19:43] <ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Anything to add to what you wrote earlier today?
[19:44] <OvenWerks> (lots of other nicks active)
[19:44] <eylul> just forgot to say that I think we have decided to go with .png? was that the final verdict?
[19:44] <OvenWerks> I think that would be best
[19:44] <ErichEickmeyer> Obviously the wacom issue is a thing, but if we can make some sort of gui with -controls or -settings, that would fix that issue for both Xfce and Plasma.
[19:44] <OvenWerks> do we need a vote? or did we?
[19:44] <ErichEickmeyer> I thought we voted last time?
[19:45] <eylul> yeah I think we did.
[19:45] <OvenWerks> I will roll back the two changes then.
[19:45] <ErichEickmeyer> iirc we went with .png
[19:45] <OvenWerks> shood we vote on 4k
[19:45] <eylul> I'll convert the files, and get them up... somewhere for next meeting so that they can be uploaded. *is not going near the package editing again*
[19:45] <eylul> (not until everything is moved to git)
[19:46] <eylul> oh
[19:46] <ErichEickmeyer> I think a vote for 4k would be a good idea.
[19:46] <eylul> that's my vote
[19:46] <ErichEickmeyer> #vote Should wallpapers move to 4k?
[19:46] <meetingology> Please vote on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
[19:46] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[19:46] <ErichEickmeyer> +1
[19:46] <meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
[19:46] <krytarik> -1
[19:46] <meetingology> -1 received from krytarik
[19:46] <OvenWerks> +1
[19:46] <meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
[19:46] <eylul> +1
[19:46] <meetingology> +1 received from eylul
[19:46] <captain-tux>   +1
[19:47] <OvenWerks> krytarik: did you want to say more?
[19:47] <krytarik> Well, just seems a little unusual and over the top right now.
[19:47] <eylul> unusual compared to...?
[19:47] <krytarik> Everything else.
[19:48] <eylul> everything else is a very vague descriptor.
[19:48] <ErichEickmeyer> #vote
[19:48] <meetingology> Voting still open on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
[19:49] <ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
[19:49] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
[19:49] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
[19:49] <meetingology> Motion carried
[19:49] <ErichEickmeyer> We can revisit that.
[19:49] <ErichEickmeyer> #undo
[19:49] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
[19:49] <OvenWerks> yes it seems there could be some discusion
[19:49] <eylul> I love meetingology. XD
[19:50] <ErichEickmeyer> smh
[19:50] <ErichEickmeyer> So, we need further discussion on this. krytarik has a valid point, and I believe some discussion is merited.
[19:51] <eylul> I do disagree with that (the valid point, not discussion aspect)
[19:51] <OvenWerks> :)
[19:51] <eylul> I do need more than everything else is different as an argument. with no clear explanation of what everything else is, to figure out if it is relevant to us or not
[19:52] <ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: You okay? Some point-of-view on this would be nice.
[19:52] <ErichEickmeyer> We can revote if the argument is compelling enough.
[19:53] <OvenWerks> We had already voted on whatever hires was last year so we can start with that
[19:53] <OvenWerks> 1024P or something
[19:54] <OvenWerks> having made that choice it is perhaps a bit quick to jump again.
[19:54] <ErichEickmeyer> Might be. Granted, 4k looks better on 4k and scales down well enough, but sticking to 1024 for now isn't a bad idea. Maybe revisit 4k after 18.10?
[19:55] <eylul> 1080p is not HiRes and never was, and I do disagree with this decision
[19:56] <eylul> 4K was the resolution of wallpaper we were ready to put up to 18.04 without discussion before I brought it up. :)
[19:56] <OvenWerks> really the choice can wait till beta. It may take a bit to put thoughts for or against into words.
[19:56] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Should we table this for another date?
[19:56] <OvenWerks> Ah, didn't look taht close
[19:57] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I think so
[19:57] <ErichEickmeyer> Well, let's vote on the vote.
[19:57] <eylul> and nobody had any disagreements with it after testing until one random comment. I am all for discussion. I have serious issues about us hesitating to change decisions because one person who hasn't contributed to discussion. (as small relatively speaking as this particular problem is) and yeah lets table it :)
[19:58] <ErichEickmeyer> #vote Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
[19:58] <meetingology> Please vote on: Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
[19:58] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[19:58] <ErichEickmeyer> +1
[19:58] <meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
[19:58] <OvenWerks> +1
[19:58] <meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
[19:58] <OvenWerks> we seem to have lost everyone
[19:59] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Not sure why. :(
[19:59] <eylul> +1
[19:59] <meetingology> +1 received from eylul
[19:59] <ErichEickmeyer> krytarik, captain-tux?
[19:59] <eylul> as long as the discussion happens timely for 18.10
[19:59] <captain-tux> +1
[19:59] <meetingology> +1 received from captain-tux
[20:00] <captain-tux> Yeah, that, I'm set.
[20:00] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'll keep it in the agenda to discuss next week, but not necessarily make a decision.
[20:00] <ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
[20:00] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
[20:00] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[20:00] <meetingology> Motion carried
[20:01] <ErichEickmeyer> #topic Website Theme
[20:01] <ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn isn't here, but do we have any progress here?
[20:01] <eylul> no update from me.
[20:02] <ErichEickmeyer> Okay.
[20:02] <ErichEickmeyer> That's it for the agenda. Anything else to add?
[20:03] <eylul> not from me. I am looking at the kde wacom interface linked. I didn't realize it was still actively developed.
[20:03] <ErichEickmeyer> Interesting.
[20:03] <OvenWerks> Which link?
[20:03] <ErichEickmeyer> That definitelly needs to be something we include in -plasma.
[20:04] <eylul> OvenWerks: Alexansander's reply to my email.
[20:04] <eylul> https://github.com/KDE/wacomtablet :)
[20:05] <ErichEickmeyer> Ah, it's a KCM.
[20:05] <ErichEickmeyer> #topic Wacom Tablet
[20:06] <ErichEickmeyer> Last release was 3.0 on April 3.
[20:06] <ErichEickmeyer> Needs to be packaged.
[20:07] <eylul> *nods*
[20:07] <ErichEickmeyer> Apparently already being worked on by the Kubuntu team: https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/experimental
[20:08] <eylul> Kubuntu team is great :)
[20:08] <ErichEickmeyer> I'll keep up to date with them. Definitely a collaboration thing here. :)
[20:09] <OvenWerks> anyone have a good suggestion for an inexpesive tablet?
[20:10] <ErichEickmeyer> Shall we end the meeting first?
[20:10] <OvenWerks> (k
[20:10] <eylul> yes but will wait for meeting to be over :)
[20:10] <ErichEickmeyer> #endmeeting
[20:10] <meetingology> Meeting ended Sat May 26 20:10:52 2018 UTC.
[20:10] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-05-26-19.00.moin.txt
[20:11] <OvenWerks> (I'm looking for 7inch-ish, I think)
[20:11] <eylul> ovenwerks: intuos are basic versions of wacom tablets and reasonably cheap. (and it is basically the same pad that was the old professional tablets). I also heard good things about huion and has at least some linux support
[20:11] <eylul> unless you mean.. wait drawing tablet?
[20:11] <eylul> or like tablet?
[20:11] <eylul> *laughs*
[20:12] <OvenWerks> for drawing
[20:13] <Son_Goku> OvenWerks, ErichEickmeyer, anyway, I hope what I told you was useful
[20:13] <eylul> I'd argue cheap models of wacom, because that's what I have used and still use and has been supported in linux for a while now. Don't go for something too tiny through as having some movement area to work is better.
[20:13] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: It is very. It answered some questions we've had for weeks. Thank you so much!
[20:14] <eylul> +1
[20:14] <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, if you need anything, I'm in #flatpak and #snappy
[20:14] <OvenWerks> eylul: I am going by what my son is asking for.
[20:14] <Son_Goku> and of course, various Fedora and Mageia channels :)
[20:14] <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Awesome. I just joined #snappy, and I'm sure I'll ask questions in the future. :)
[20:15] <eylul> (moving to PM with OvenWerks)
[20:18] <Son_Goku> well, I'm out
[20:18] <eylul> ErichEickmeyer as usual thanks for running the meeting
[20:19] <ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Of course! My pleasure.
[21:14] <tsimonq2> I heard y'all need packaging help?
[21:21] <OvenWerks> I don't know if ErichEickmeyer is ready yet.
[21:25] <eylul> I think he might have run out to work
[21:26] <eylul> but hi tsimonq2 its less of a specific: we need packaging for this thing, more than we are lacking permissions to upload (?)
[21:26] <eylul> OvenWerks did I get that right?
[21:27] <tsimonq2> Ah.
[21:27] <eylul> we also need help with packaging in terms of we really don't have enough people, but let us get back on that
[21:27] <eylul> with more specific list and places we are stuck at?
[21:27] <tsimonq2> I do traditional packaging, and not snaps much (although I did at one point, so I can answer passing questions).
[21:28] <tsimonq2> eylul: Sure.
[21:28] <OvenWerks> we pretty much figgured out snaps will not help us much
[21:29] <tsimonq2> I reached the same conclusion with Kubuntu and Lubuntu, for now at least.
[21:29] <eylul> OvenWerks speaking of that that probably means we will need to figure out what to do with mypaint.
[21:29] <eylul> actually this is something that will affect all flavors I think to some extent.
[21:29] <OvenWerks> eylul: we are waiting for upstream
[21:29] <eylul> *crossing fingers*
[21:30] <OvenWerks> From what I can see, the "new" mypaint has not been released yet.
[21:30] <tsimonq2> mypaint sounds familiar.
[21:31] <tsimonq2> Anyway, see my away message, I'll have to duck out as soon as I lose cell reception. :)
[21:31] <OvenWerks> gimp uses a newer mypaint lib that mypaint can have in the system
[21:31] <OvenWerks> OK
[21:31] <tsimonq2> But yeah, let me know what you need and how I can help you.
[21:32] <eylul> mypaint is a lightweight drawing program with infinite canvas and a great brush engine
[21:32] <eylul> tldr the core lib for next part is out there, and gimp uses it but the release still uses the old version
[21:32] <eylul> causing a conflict if both are installed
[21:32] <eylul> and yeah we will get back to you
[21:32] <eylul> nice to meet you again!
[21:32] <OvenWerks> (like the installer gives up)


[00:34] <beatzz> I just installed Ubuntu Server 17.10 on a new system, with LAMP & OpenSSH selected for install.
[00:34] <beatzz> I ran ufw default settings, and allowed ssh + http
[00:35] <beatzz> modified /etc/netplan/01-netcfg.yaml for a static ip setup
[00:35] <beatzz> and I am connected, I am able to apt-get update/upgrade
[00:36] <beatzz> but I am getting no connection to my server via ssh/http
[00:36] <beatzz> the router's port mapping is also correct, wide open to the servers ip address.
[00:37] <beatzz> from my point of view, it looks like it should work. Anyone have any insight on this situation for me?
[00:39] <sarnold> does netstat or ss show apache listening on the ports and adresses you expect?
[00:39] <beatzz> yes, both
[00:40] <beatzz> sudo netstat -anp | grep apache && ssh both return LISTEN
[00:41] <sarnold> does netcat on localhost work to connect to those services? how about netcat on another host on the LAN?
[00:41] <beatzz> although it dosent specify the address, just "tcp6    0    0 :::80    :::*    LISTEN    892/apache2"
[00:42] <sarnold> does 'nc ::1 80' work?
[00:43] <beatzz> I will check
[00:43] <beatzz> no error, but it's not returning anything
[00:44] <beatzz> and has not returned my command-prompt
[00:44] <sarnold> try something like HEAD /<enter> and see if you get a nice error reply from your server
[00:44] <sarnold> I can't recall enough http by hand..
[00:45] <beatzz> "HEAD /" at the command-prompt?
[00:45] <sarnold> in netcat, to your webserver
[00:45] <beatzz> ahhhh
[00:45] <beatzz> that returned some info
[00:46] <sarnold> good good, okay, ssh next :) what address / port is openssh listening on?
[00:46] <beatzz> "400 bad request"
[00:46] <beatzz> 22
[00:46] <sarnold> and the address?
[00:46] <beatzz> local address is <IP_ADDRESS>
[00:47] <sarnold> does netstat or ss output show openssh listening on that address? or on <IP_ADDRESS>?
[00:47] <beatzz> <IP_ADDRESS>
[00:48] <sarnold> okay, so something like echo hi | nc localhost 22    ought to spit out the openssh banner
[00:49] <beatzz> "SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_7.5p1 Ubuntu-10    Protocol mismatch."
[00:50] <sarnold> okay, cool, so the services do seem to be up and working, one reachable via ipv4, one via ipv6... now try from another host on the LAN and make sure that they can be contacted
[00:50] <beatzz> aye
[00:52] <beatzz> Connection timed out on both
[00:52] <beatzz> I will try ipv6 address in web-browser
[00:54] <beatzz> that didn't work either.
[00:54] <sarnold> connection timed out sounds like a firewall configured to DROP packets; can the testing host contact other hosts on the LAN? on the network?
[00:54] <beatzz> yes
[00:56] <beatzz> I have a slackware VM that I can connect to, both http & ssh
[00:57] <sarnold> networking to VMs is funny..
[00:59] <beatzz> I'm booting it up now
[01:00] <beatzz> configuring it's eth0, and I will test it's connection via LAN
[01:00] <beatzz> just to be sure
[01:02] <beatzz> okay, roger. I am connected to my slackware server at <IP_ADDRESS>, on both ports 80, and 22 (http/ssh)
[01:02] <beatzz> from my laptop here
[01:04] <beatzz> hey I appreciate your help sarnold, I think maybe I need to make an ubuntu forums post, displaying all these results.
[01:05] <sarnold> beatzz: alright; once you get there be sure to inclde the iptables -L output .. I don't know how to drive iptables real well, so that might not be the exact command..
[01:05] <sarnold> just whatever dumps all the rules.
[01:07] <beatzz> for sure, hey thanks a lot though
[01:07] <sarnold> good luck, have fun :)
[01:07] <beatzz> for real, thanks for helpin out :)
[01:08] <beatzz> this is my first run with ubuntu *
[01:08] <drab> tcpdump is good too
[01:08] <drab> to see if packets are getting there at all
[01:08] <drab> even if they get dumped
[01:08] <drab> also you can always add a LOG rule to iptables as last
[01:08] <drab> to figure out if that's what's happening
[01:09] <drab> beatzz: ^^
[01:09] <beatzz> aye, I shall
[01:09] <beatzz> gana go register at the ubuntu forums
[01:11] <drab> what for, try the above first :)
[01:11] <beatzz> tcpdump returned 109 packets captured
[01:11] <drab> on port 22?
[01:11] <beatzz> 136 packets recieved by filter
[01:12] <beatzz> 27 dropped by kerenel
[01:12] <drab> tcpdump -i $interface port 22
[01:12] <beatzz> kernel*
[01:12] <drab> run 'tcpdump -i $interface port 22' then go to you client and try to ssh in
[01:12] <drab> see if anything shows
[01:13] <beatzz> roger, client is attempted to connect.... and nothing
[01:13] <beatzz> connection timed out on client, tcpdump returns nothing.
[01:13] <drab> ok
[01:14] <drab> sudo ufw logging on
[01:14] <drab> then try again to ssh in
[01:15] <drab> grep "DST=22" /var/log/syslog after trying to connect/timeout
[01:15] <drab> if taht shows any output paste on dpaste.com, not here
[01:16] <beatzz> it outputs a shit ton
[01:16] <beatzz> but the server is on another system, I don't think I can dpaste it
[01:16] <beatzz> unless, does ubuntu server have a gui I'm not using?
[01:17] <beatzz> [UFW BLOCK] looks disturbing...
[01:18] <drab> grep "DST=22" /var/log/syslog | head | netcat termbin.com 9999
[01:19] <drab> run that on the server and paste the resulting output link
[01:20] <beatzz> oh shit, cool trick
[01:20] <beatzz> http://termbin.com/nhmj
[01:21] <sarnold> all those DST packets look like multicast
[01:21] <drab> oh, I'm an idiot, lol
[01:21] <drab> I meant DPT
[01:21] <beatzz> no worries, one sec
[01:21] <drab> grep "DPT=22" /var/log/syslog | head | netcat termbin.com 9999
[01:21] <drab> in fact, just in case
[01:21] <drab> grep "DPT=22 " /var/log/syslog | head | netcat termbin.com 9999
[01:21] <drab> note the space
[01:22] <beatzz> roger
[01:22] <beatzz> it returned with no link?
[01:22] <drab> ok, so there's nothing, run it without the head/netcat, just the grep
[01:22] <drab> it should show no output, which means there's no ssh pkts (destinated to port 22) ebing dropped
[01:23] <beatzz> aye, again, nothing
[01:23] <drab> are you running ssh on a weird port?
[01:23] <sarnold> no link when there's nothing? that's very handy of them :)
[01:23] <beatzz> nope, port 22
[01:23] <beatzz> i have not edited /etc/ssh/ssh_config
[01:23] <drab> ok, so ufw is not dropping your ssh connections
[01:23] <drab> and tcpdump is not showing any ssh traffic
[01:23] <beatzz> aye
[01:23] <beatzz> i will show you ufw status
[01:23] <drab> so your problem is network, nothing to do with ssh or firewall
[01:24] <drab> pkts are simply not getting there, maybe swallowed by the VM Host's network interface
[01:24] <sarnold> beatzz: do all hosts involved agree on netmask and network addresses? :)
[01:24] <beatzz> http://termbin.com/uz65
[01:24] <beatzz> this ubuntu server is not a VM
[01:24] <drab> yeah like I said I don't think your issue is UFW
[01:24] <beatzz> aye, I agree
[01:25] <beatzz> so network-ish problem
[01:25] <drab> so again, what's your network layout?
[01:25] <drab> what ip/netmask are the client and server on and what's in between them
[01:25] <beatzz> I have routers port mapping wide open for both TCP/UDP to <IP_ADDRESS>
[01:25] <beatzz> I have assigned a static IP of <IP_ADDRESS> to this ubuntu server
[01:26] <beatzz> via editing /etc/netplan/01-netcfg.yaml
[01:27] <drab> on the server, ip addr ls && ip route ls| netcat...
[01:27] <beatzz> http://termbin.com/el91
[01:27] <drab> paste the link
[01:27] <beatzz> ;)
[01:27] <drab> no, not useful, that's just a config, I want to see reality
[01:27] <drab> I mean, good to knwo you have that config, but that doesn't necesasrily imply it's being applied/etc
[01:27] <drab> so do the above pls
[01:27] <beatzz> ahh you want ifconfig?
[01:28] <drab> I want the above, ip addr ls...
[01:28] <beatzz> sorry, roger
[01:28] <drab> nothing to be sorry about
[01:29] <beatzz> http://termbin.com/pi6j
[01:29] <drab> uhm, I guess && doesn't work, that's only iproute
[01:29] <drab> can you just do ip addr ls | netcat ... pls
[01:30] <beatzz> http://termbin.com/3sxw
[01:31] <beatzz> and just for reference, here is the full 01-netcfg.yaml : http://termbin.com/7mo4
[01:32] <drab> ok, where are you trying to ssh from?
[01:32] <drab> where's the client?
[01:33] <drab> and please confirm the server is an ubuntu server 16.04 on baremetal, no VM
[01:33] <drab> and is that connected with a cable to the router and the router to the internet?
[01:34] <beatzz> Ubuntu Server 17.10, not a VM (<IP_ADDRESS>)
[01:34] <beatzz> and I'm on irc on my laptop (<IP_ADDRESS>)
[01:34] <drab> ok, so both server and client are on the lan, correct?
[01:35] <beatzz> Ubuntu server is connected via ethernet cable to router, and laptop wifi, siting with both screens in front ofm e
[01:35] <beatzz> yessir
[01:35] <drab> ok
[01:35] <drab> please paste ip addr ls and ip route ls from the laptop
[01:35] <beatzz> windows :(
[01:35] <drab> ipconfig /all from cmd, copy paste to dpaste.com
[01:36] <beatzz> roger
[01:36] <beatzz> ipconfig /all --> http://dpaste.com/0RZQH89
[01:37] <drab> how are you running ssh?
[01:38] <beatzz> PuTTY on my windows client
[01:38] <beatzz> I have a successful ssh connection to my slackware-linux VM at <IP_ADDRESS>
[01:39] <beatzz> via PuTTY
[01:39] <drab> ok, from cmd, ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[01:39] <beatzz> "request timed out"
[01:39] <drab> ok
[01:40] <drab> ping <IP_ADDRESS> works?
[01:40] <drab> (it has to, but wth..)
[01:41] <beatzz> aye, working
[01:41] <drab> from the slackware VM, ping <IP_ADDRESS> , works?
[01:41] <drab> and then ping .2
[01:42] <drab> then from 11.2 ping 11.1 and 11.20
[01:42] <beatzz> SlackVM > <IP_ADDRESS> working
[01:42] <beatzz> SlackVM > Ubuntu Server, not
[01:43] <beatzz> Ubuntu > <IP_ADDRESS>, working
[01:43] <drab> do you have a smartphone?
[01:43] <beatzz> Ubuntu > others, not
[01:43] <beatzz> yes
[01:44] <drab> ios/android?
[01:44] <beatzz> ios
[01:44] <drab> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/termius/id549039908?mt=8
[01:44] <drab> install that
[01:44] <drab> it's free
[01:45] <beatzz> installing
[01:45] <beatzz> ready to use
[01:45] <beatzz> new host... ?
[01:45] <drab> ok, ssh to ur ubuntu server :)
[01:45] <drab> yeah
[01:45] <drab> add <IP_ADDRESS>
[01:45] <drab> and connect
[01:46] <drab> also while you're at it, will come handy: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ping-network-utility/id576773404?mt=8
[01:47] <beatzz> attempting to connect
[01:48] <drab> I'm assuming phone is on wifi on the same router?
[01:48] <beatzz> aye
[01:48] <drab> ok, timed out I assume, if it was working it'd worked by now
[01:48] <drab> get that ping app, just to confirm
[01:49] <beatzz> did
[01:49] <drab> and try to ping it
[01:49] <beatzz> Request time-out
[01:49] <drab> yeah, fair enough
[01:50] <drab> do yuo have access to the web interface of the router?
[01:50] <beatzz> so strange O_O
[01:50] <beatzz> yes
[01:50] <drab> login, look for tools or something, there should be a diagnostic tab that let you run ping
[01:50] <drab> find it, ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[01:51] <beatzz> works
[01:52] <drab> does it have telnet too by any chance?
[01:52] <beatzz> negative
[01:53] <drab> k, np
[01:53] <drab> can you find a "connected clients" tab on it?
[01:53] <drab> that shows mac addresses
[01:53] <drab> it should show your ubuntu server
[01:53] <drab> mac address
[01:53] <beatzz> that, it does not have.
[01:53] <drab> that's weird
[01:53] <beatzz> I've been lookin for that for a few days now.
[01:54] <beatzz> i know, but trust me, I've scoured the routers setup, it just dosnt have one
[01:54] <drab> k
[01:54] <drab> have you ever used <IP_ADDRESS> with something else?
[01:54] <beatzz> yes
[01:55] <drab> ok, can you change the ip please to something you've not used before, say 222 ?
[01:55] <beatzz> it was the static address of my SlackVM, prior to setting up the ubuntu server
[01:55] <beatzz> it is also outside the dhcp block
[01:55] <beatzz> I will, my wifes demanding I take the trash out though :/
[01:56] <beatzz> brb
[01:56] <drab> happy wife happy life, one thing I try hard not to forget
[02:00] <beatzz> okay
[02:00] <beatzz> so, change the IP address of the ubuntu server
[02:01] <drab> yep
[02:01] <drab> then try the ping dance again pls, one host is enough + the router
[02:06] <beatzz> okay
[02:06] <beatzz> Ubuntu Server is now on <IP_ADDRESS>, dynamically assigned via DHCP
[02:07] <beatzz> Laptop(20) ping> Unbuntu, request timed out
[02:07] <beatzz> SlackVM(7) ping> Ubuntu, request timed out
[02:08] <beatzz> Router(1) ping> Ubuntu, working
[02:08] <drab> from the phone also no joy?
[02:09] <drab> I'm kinda wary about the laptop as Vbox can mess up networking
[02:09] <beatzz> iphone ping> ubuntu, request time out
[02:09] <beatzz> shouldn't, it's configured properly
[02:10]  * drab scratches head
[02:10] <beatzz> Ubuntu server ping> other machines, not working
[02:10] <beatzz> Ubuntu server ping> router, working
[02:11] <beatzz> im just gana turn off ufw and see what happens
[02:11] <drab> does phone to laptop work?
[02:11] <drab> if ufw was a problem blocking pings it'd block the router too
[02:12] <drab> but sure, try that
[02:12] <beatzz> hmmm... Phone ping> laptop, not working
[02:12] <drab> bingo
[02:12] <drab> ok
[02:12] <drab> should have thought of that earlier
[02:12] <drab> so it has nothing to do with the ubuntu server
[02:12] <drab> host to host communication on ur network is screwed up
[02:12] <drab> nodes can talk to the router they are directly connected to, but not to each host
[02:13] <drab> laptop to VM obviously work because they r on the same physical host
[02:13] <beatzz> but I can view my webserver from phone?
[02:13] <drab> u can? on the slack VM?
[02:13] <beatzz> yup
[02:13] <beatzz> you might be able to as well
[02:13] <drab> ah, holy cow
[02:13] <drab> ok
[02:13] <beatzz> http://beatzz.co
[02:14] <drab> yeah it's up
[02:14] <beatzz> right, and from within LAN, I can http://<IP_ADDRESS>
[02:14] <drab> from the ubuntu box
[02:14] <drab> telnet <IP_ADDRESS> 80
[02:15] <beatzz> how so? with lynx?
[02:15] <drab> telnet :)
[02:15] <beatzz> "Trying <IP_ADDRESS>..."
[02:15] <drab> you can basically work through any protocol using telnet if you speak it
[02:15] <drab> used to send emails with it :P
[02:16] <drab> argh
[02:16] <sarnold> I prefer netcat since it's easy to get out of
[02:16] <drab> true
[02:16] <sarnold> and telnet treats some chars as magic
[02:16] <drab> but the phone can see http://<IP_ADDRESS> , correct?
[02:16] <beatzz> yup
[02:16] <beatzz> ubuntu box is not doing anything with telnet
[02:17] <drab> but cannot ping it?
[02:17] <drab> ok
[02:17] <drab> phone -> slack, no ping?
[02:17] <beatzz> roger
[02:17] <beatzz> phone > slack, no ping
[02:18] <drab> you're positive yuo did telnet <IP_ADDRESS> 80 yes? including the 80 at the end
[02:18] <beatzz> yessir
[02:18]  * drab scratches head
[02:18] <beatzz> if finally returned something too
[02:19] <beatzz> "telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection timed out"
[02:19] <drab> right, np
[02:19] <beatzz> so basically, host > host, no ping
[02:20] <beatzz> only thing that returns a ping, is host > router
[02:20] <beatzz> and router > host
[02:20] <drab> if the phone couldn't get to the webserver I'd thought the router somehow was isolating the nodes
[02:20] <drab> but since it can, that can't be true
[02:21] <drab> are you running a firewall of sort on slack or blocking ipngs on win?
[02:21] <drab> can the phone ping the laptop?
[02:21] <sarnold> < beatzz> hmmm... Phone ping> laptop, not working
[02:21] <beatzz> nope
[02:21] <beatzz> no host > host ping
[02:22] <sarnold> did you double-check the netmask and IPs on all the hosts?
[02:23] <drab> sarnold: but phone > slack http works
[02:23] <drab> that's what is so damn weird
[02:23] <drab> but windows can block pings
[02:23] <beatzz> and ssh
[02:23] <drab> so the ping not working may be ok
[02:24] <sarnold> .. and VM networking software sometimes only ever works for TCP and UDP and drops everything else on the floor
[02:24] <drab> on the phone you put "http://<IP_ADDRESS>" in your browser?
[02:24] <beatzz> yeah, or just the IP works as well.
[02:24] <drab> sarnold: true, but telnet <IP_ADDRESS> 80 doesn't work, which is tcp
[02:25] <drab> what's ip route ls and ip addr ls on the slack VM?
[02:27] <drab> and how is virtual box network configured? bridge mode?
[02:27] <beatzz> ip route ls --> <IP_ADDRESS>/8 dev lo scope link      <IP_ADDRESS>/24 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src <IP_ADDRESS> metric 202
[02:27] <beatzz> bridged, yes
[02:30] <drab> sudo tcpdump -i lxdbr0 icmp on the ubuntu server
[02:30] <drab> ping it from the phone
[02:30] <drab> and from the router
[02:30] <sarnold> lxdbr0?
[02:30] <drab> eer, sorry
[02:30] <drab> that was my test
[02:30] <drab> -i whatever your interface
[02:30] <sarnold> that's what that smelled like :) hehe
[02:33] <beatzz> phones ping utility shows request time-out
[02:33] <beatzz> tcpdump shows nothing
[02:33] <beatzz> which means the ping request is getting blocked at the router
[02:33] <beatzz> aye?
[02:34] <beatzz> which makes sense, why we cant ping host > host
[02:34] <drab> if you ping from the router do you see the pings?
[02:34] <beatzz> yes, router > host works
[02:34] <beatzz> on all hosts
[02:34] <drab> but yes, it feels like somehow traffic is dying at the router... no idea why
[02:35] <drab> ufw is stopped?
[02:35] <drab> sudo iptables -L -v , shows no rules all ACCEPT?
[02:35] <drab> on the ubuntu server
[02:36] <sarnold> sometimes routers have buttons to prevent wifi segments frmo communicating with wired segments
[02:37] <drab> oh, good call sarnold
[02:38] <drab> beatzz: check that, will ya?
[02:38] <drab> or otherwise, plug the ethernet cable straight into ur laptop if you have a port
[02:39] <drab> and try that, I was gonna suggest that anyway because I'm out of guesses...
[02:39] <beatzz> aye, me too
[02:39] <beatzz> i think we've beat this horse to death
[02:39] <drab> poor horse
[02:39] <beatzz> gana give it a rest
[02:40] <beatzz> thanks for the support drab & sarnold
[02:40] <drab> wait, last test!
[02:40] <drab> check the router :P
[02:40] <drab> what model is it?
[02:40] <beatzz> ummm...
[02:40] <beatzz> buffalo WZR-300HP
[02:41] <drab> https://superuser.com/questions/856499/buffalo-wzr-1750dhp-cant-reach-the-lan-side-using-wireless
[02:41] <drab> According to the manual that router supports SSID and Wireless Client isolation
[02:41] <drab> :........(
[02:42] <drab> sarnold wins
[02:42] <drab> maybe
[02:42] <beatzz> so wait, okay
[02:42] <beatzz> if thats the case
[02:42] <beatzz> I should be able to access the http server from another network
[02:42] <beatzz> http/ssh on the Ubuntu server
[02:42] <drab> altho that's not quet what it says, it says wireless client isolation, not to lan
[02:42] <beatzz> from outside my network
[02:42] <drab> yes
[02:43] <drab> if you put it back on 2 / the port forwarding on the router matches
[02:43] <beatzz> port forwarding goes to 8
[02:43] <beatzz> its currently open
[02:44] <drab> doesn't seem to be quite it actually
[02:44] <drab> If enabled, the Wireless client isolation blocks communication between wireless devices
[02:44] <drab> connected to the AirStation. Wireless devices will be able to connect to the Internet
[02:44] <drab> but not with each other. Devices that are connected to the AirStation with wired
[02:44] <drab> connections will still be able to connect to wireless devices normally
[02:45] <sarnold> what about connections from wireless to wired? o_O
[02:45] <drab> didn't work
[02:45] <beatzz> omfg
[02:45] <drab> no ping from laptop to ub or phone to ub
[02:45] <beatzz> it works
[02:45] <beatzz> you should be connecting to it as well
[02:45] <drab> ok, so sarnold wins somehow still
[02:45] <beatzz> from http://beatzz.co
[02:45] <sarnold> hahaha
[02:46] <sarnold> beatzz: apache default page! \o/
[02:46] <beatzz> refresh ur browser, and it will show the ubuntu
[02:46] <beatzz> holy nuts
[02:46] <drab> ever watched office space?
[02:46] <sarnold> printer scene
[02:46] <beatzz> yeah
[02:46] <beatzz> to the buffalo router
[02:46] <drab> it's almost xmas, get urself another router... le sigh
[02:46] <beatzz> damn
[02:47] <beatzz> i was just starting to smell smoke coming out of my ears a minute ago
[02:47] <beatzz> like, wth, everything is correct
[02:48] <drab> ok, this is a good time to quit, I'm out
[02:48] <sarnold> gnight drab :)
[02:48] <beatzz> thanks so much man
[02:48] <drab> like I said the other day, trust in sarnold, ignore everybody else
[02:49] <drab> ttyl
[06:28] <beatzz> just another shout out to drab and sarnold ! Server's up and running, nice and safe behind firewalls and stuff. http://www.beatzz.co
[06:29] <oerheks> now get your free ssl certificate :-)
[07:13] <cpaelzer> cpaelzer: xnox: yes we enable nested by default on e.g. intel as smb pointed out
[07:14] <cpaelzer> cpaelzer: I wanted to drop that (an admin can still opt in at any time) but I see that this might be too much of a churn for all of the consumers of qemu
[07:14] <cpaelzer> xnox: smb: on s390x yeah - I don't vote to make it nestes=1 by default (as it isn't atm), but users should be able to switch it on
[07:15] <cpaelzer> smb: did I get you right that due to not being a module you can't set the value to 1 ?
[07:16] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:16] <cpaelzer> hi lordievader
[07:17] <lordievader> Hey chamar (IRC)
[07:17] <lordievader> cpaelzer (IRC)*
[07:17] <lordievader> How are you doing?
[07:18] <cpaelzer> oh I got an asterisk :-)
[07:18] <cpaelzer> doing good
[07:18] <cpaelzer> skipped the disturbing mails for now :-)
[07:18] <lordievader> Hahaha
[07:18] <lordievader> Nice
[07:32] <stoned> Hello
[07:33] <stoned> Do you know of any bash scripts someone might have written to quicky deploy services, setup services, etc, on newly created ubuntu server instances or installs?
[07:38] <lordievader> I use puppet for such things.
[07:38] <rbasak> cloud-init?
[07:38] <rbasak> Or yeah: puppet, ansible, chef, etc.
[07:42] <stoned> Here's how I have things setup
[07:42] <stoned> I have git repository in /etc/ where I backup my config files
[07:42] <stoned> All my static sites live in git repositories
[07:43] <stoned> my nginx vhosts live in git repositories
[07:43] <stoned> Say I spin a new ubuntu 16 lts server on rackspace
[07:43] <stoned> I want to clone the server I already have
[07:43] <stoned> I dunno how
[07:43] <stoned> :)
[07:48] <rbasak> Cloning is a poor approach because you end up with an unreproducible machine carrying problems forward over time. Instead, look into codifying your deployments: having the minimal code that can be applied to a fresh server to make it how you want it. Then edit your code rather than the server.
[07:48] <rbasak> Deploying multiple servers from that state is trivial.
[07:49] <rbasak> And you can also write automated tests for your deployments.
[07:49] <stoned> Well, I'm thinking, I could write a bash script intead of depending on config management things.
[07:49] <rbasak> For basic deployments, supplying cloud-config via cloud-init is the easiest way to do this.
[07:49] <stoned> a script that basically installs the packages I need, as well as cloning the git repositories I need, and then copying the configs over
[07:49] <stoned> that sound like a sound approach?
[07:49] <rbasak> For more complex ones, choose from chef, puppet, ansible, etc.
[07:50] <rbasak> Sounds like you want ansible.
[07:50] <stoned> Ok
[07:50] <rbasak> You could write a bash script by hand, but you'll be reinventing much of what the existing tooling solves.
[07:50] <rbasak> Though if you just want a learning experience, then sure.
[07:51] <stoned> I
[07:51] <stoned> I'll invest time into ansible.
[07:51] <stoned> Write a playbook I can rely on.
[08:03] <smb> cpaelzer, xnox, actually when following the git history further it seems that vsie was only added with 4.8 (could have sworn nested was there before but obviously I am wrong). So Xenial showing /dev/kvm seems to be the real bug. As for changing the nested: there are some kernel parameters which can be changed at any time but nested is not changable, so one has to put it on commandline kvm.nested=1. However that
[08:03] <smb> does not help on its own if the host is not running a kernel that allows this too. So xenial host bad luck z/a/b maybe
[08:06] <cpaelzer> smb: yeah
[08:07] <cpaelzer> smb: and there is more
[08:07] <cpaelzer> not only does the host need kvm.nested=1
[08:07] <cpaelzer> it only works with -cpu host (libvirt host-passthrough) or host-model (remember to refresh libvirt capabilities after enabling vsie via the module)
[08:07] <cpaelzer> it is really meant to be off and an explicit opt-in
[08:08] <cpaelzer> so I agree, xenial having it on by default is the actual bug
[08:09] <smb> Yeah, and given that this was never really working, I would no longer worry about more recent releases. MAybe need to "fix" xenial to avoid confusion
[08:10] <cpaelzer> well the default (no cpu specified) works as well for me but "officially" the sie feature might be missing
[08:10] <cpaelzer> or taken away for migratability or ...
[08:10] <cpaelzer> smb: ack
[08:10] <cpaelzer> smb: btw could I have a bug number on this
[08:10] <cpaelzer> it didn't subscribe qemu yet
[08:10] <cpaelzer> so I only work on gossip atm :-)
[08:12] <smb> cpaelzer, maybe (not sure there was one opened already)
[08:12]  * smb moves channels
[09:57] <jamespage> coreycb: that setuptools issue in gnocchi was python_distutils debhelper not being very clever
[09:57] <jamespage> coreycb: pybuild appears to deal with py3 only better, so switching buildsystem
[09:59] <jamespage> coreycb: something in the BD's pulls in python2, which gets detected by debhelpers distutils integration...
[09:59] <jamespage> and then things explode
[11:31] <xnox> cpaelzer, smb - somehow i feel odd that in later releases i cannot override this with a module reload. Would it still make sense to make kvm a module; and adjust qemu-system-init to load kvm module, such that one can adjust modprobe settings without rebooting?
[11:51] <cpaelzer> xnox: I'd try to suggest so in #zkvm - I'd tihnk that is less am ubunut than  general upstream change
[12:19] <jamespage> coreycb: some progress on deps (avoiding os-testr 1.0.0 for now)
[12:19] <jamespage> coreycb: did heat, keystone in progress but needs pysaml2 version bump (dealing with that ATM)
[12:20] <jamespage> coreycb: also have patch for dh-python to auto-detect and execute ostestr, testrepository or stestr based unit tests...
[12:21] <jamespage> coreycb: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25967169/
[12:48] <ztane> hi, trying to understand the relation of rsyslog vs journald on 16.04 server default install
[12:48] <ztane> what would go into rsyslog and what would go into journald and which order?
[12:49] <ztane> ie do some syslog facilities, or all, get written to journal, or journal written to syslog or...
[12:49] <BlackDex> win 29
[12:52] <ztane> no such window
[12:55] <coreycb> jamespage: very nice, taking a closer look at dh-python now
[13:08] <ztane> my goal is to get all of the logs to the papertrail, but if I pipe all of journal from journalctl I find out that most will be duplicates with also those from rsyslog and now trying to find out whether or not I can get everything of importance from just journald
[13:13] <ztane> ok... it seems that not everything gets into journald
[13:13] <ztane> also not everything gets into syslog, hmhmh
[13:14] <smb> cpaelzer, according to this older bug report xnox claims the kvm module (when it was still a module) could not be loaded (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1532886) hence it became built-in
[13:16] <xnox> smb, cpaelzer - that was true on xenial; on xenial all cloud/kvm instances have /dev/kvm.... despite that being "nested"
[13:16] <xnox> smb, and by "all" i think it was comparison with amd64 and ppc64el.
[13:18] <smb> which maybe was the reason for module loading failing (as 4.4 had no nested support on s390x at all) as we believe now.
[13:20] <smb> there is time to try again module for bionic but then with more than just an irc discussion as background
[13:27] <xnox> smb, well, there is some nesting support, i thoght. since launching kvm in z/vm on lpar works, launching kvm in a kvm on an lpar should work too.
[13:30] <smb> xnox, I'd say launching it in zVM is different because there vVM handles the one stage of nesting which for the kvm case the Linux kernel would have to do
[13:30] <xnox> smb, right.
[13:31] <xnox> smb, kvm in z/vm is slow
[13:32] <smb> as would be kvm in kvm if it were working (what was said yesterday iirc)
[14:04] <cpaelzer> I discussed and speed wise 4 levels are the last sane thing
[14:04] <cpaelzer> so 2x HW + 2* shadow virt
[14:04] <cpaelzer> but that is already borderline
[15:37] <coreycb> jamespage: i've been dropping the drop-openstackdoctheme.patch's and bumping sphinx to >= 1.6.2 as I go
[15:37] <jamespage> coreycb: ack - I've mostly dropped that patch, but some earlier uploads have not
[15:37] <coreycb> jamespage: great
[15:38] <coreycb> jamespage: that was kind of a pain last cycle
[15:38] <jamespage> coreycb: I can imagine
[15:38] <jamespage> coreycb: I'm really liking pybuild btw - digging on the code has been revelaing
[15:38] <jamespage> coreycb: basically it attempts to auto-configure testing based on what deps are in the BD's
[15:38] <coreycb> jamespage: cool. yeah so basically we can drop our dh_auto_test sections if the simply call ostestr, etc?
[15:38] <jamespage> so all you have todo is add python-nose/stestr etc...
[15:39] <jamespage> coreycb: thats the idea
[15:39] <coreycb> jamespage: that's really nice
[16:00] <cpaelzer> nacc: wondering about http://paste.ubuntu.com/25968338/
[16:00] <cpaelzer> nacc: why would it try to spawn a debian lxd for build-source
[16:00] <nacc> cpaelzer: head debian/changelog please ?
[16:00] <cpaelzer> this is identical to your merge last week except the d/rules change
[16:00] <cpaelzer> nacc: nut (2.7.4-5.1ubuntu2) bionic; urgency=medium
[16:01] <nacc> cpaelzer: annd edge snap?
[16:01] <cpaelzer> I didn't even write binonic this time
[16:01] <cpaelzer> r291 = stable
[16:01] <cpaelzer> I always cycle edge/edge-fixes as needed
[16:01] <nacc> cpaelzer: and it happens with edge too?
[16:01]  * cpaelzer downloading snap
[16:02] <nacc> cpaelzer: for right now, tnohting but the importer should use the stable snap
[16:03] <cpaelzer> nacc: it now took ubuntu-daily:bionic, seems bette ron 333 from edge
[16:03] <cpaelzer> many (many++) warnings from likely apt being parsed about non stable CLI
[16:03] <cpaelzer> but that is something else
[16:04] <cpaelzer> the petname of this is matching the test
[16:04] <nacc> cpaelzer: ok
[16:04] <cpaelzer> you better fly :-)
[16:04] <cpaelzer>  /usr/bin/lxc launch -e ubuntu-daily:bionic better-fly
[17:32] <jamespage> coreycb: neutron is being awkward - some sort of multiprocessing issue during test discovery
[17:34] <coreycb> jamespage: hmm
[17:34] <jamespage> coreycb: trying with a minor patch level on evetlnet
[17:34] <jamespage> coreycb: https://launchpad.net/~james-page/+archive/ubuntu/bionic/+build/13733732
[17:35] <coreycb> ok
[17:40] <coreycb> jamespage: glance unit tests get a bunch of mismatched http status asserts. i'm thinking one of the http deps needs to be bumped, so trying that route now.
[17:44] <jamespage> coreycb: ack
[17:44] <jamespage> coreycb: I think kje
[17:44] <jamespage> coreycb: I think keystone will be OK now
[17:44] <jamespage> I'll upload that later
[17:44] <coreycb> jamespage: ok
[17:44] <jamespage> however might be stuck on neutron for now
[17:44] <jamespage> coreycb: I think we should probably push what we have into archive tomorrow AM
[17:44] <coreycb> jamespage: ok
[17:44] <jamespage> thus avoiding any conflicts with anyone elses work
[17:45] <jamespage> coreycb: see how far you get with things; I'll publish tomorrow am
[17:45] <coreycb> jamespage: sounds good
[18:38] <sarnold> drab: thanks for helping out beatzz yesterday :)
[19:33] <drab> sarnold: hey man, you're the one that figured it out, I just stabbed at the dark for like an hr... :)
[19:34] <sarnold> drab: hehe, I only got lucky after you did all the grunt work :)
[19:38] <drab> some call that genius :P
[19:40] <sarnold> not the first time I stuck my nameo n papers where I did much less of the work..
[20:02] <R_P_S> Hi, was told to try this channel as well for juju support
[20:03] <R_P_S> I created a juju controller from machine that is about to be decommissioned.  I'd like to register the controller as admin/superuser from another machine but I have no idea how to find the registration string
[20:54] <grendal_pure> im loosing my mind here.  all of the sudden my kvm virtualhost will not bring up the second bridge
[20:54] <grendal_pure> looks like some sort of kernel bug.
[20:55] <grendal_pure> set forward delay failed: Numerical result out of range
[20:56] <grendal_pure> i cant even add a virtual nic to the one working nic on this machine.  its werid.
[20:57] <powersj> cyphermox: did we ever come to a conclusion on the preseed of bionic?
[20:57] <powersj> I wasn't clear if it was something missing on my end or something else.
[21:09] <grendal_pure> has anyone else run into this issue?
[21:09] <grendal_pure> set forward delay failed: Numerical result out of range
[21:10] <grendal_pure> I have two nics in this sever, one comes up and bridges eth1 -> br1  but eth0 ->br0 fails and when i manually kick it , it throws that error.
[21:14] <grendal_pure> looks like i am able to connect a virtual network to the one device.  Im having to change the interface on a lot of machines though
[21:15] <grendal_pure> setting up nat on that virtual device with same ip as the physical hardware that was bridged...what a mess
[21:15] <cyphermox> powersj: I don't know what's wrong, it works here?
[21:16] <cyphermox> maybe if you share more of the logs
[21:16] <powersj> cyphermox: works with a bionic iso? because I could reproduce
[21:16] <cyphermox> oh, that's right
[21:16] <cyphermox> but yeah, it did here
[21:16] <cyphermox> ppc64el
[21:16] <cyphermox> no reason for architecture to matter to this
[21:17] <powersj> correct
[21:17] <powersj> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily/pending/
[21:17] <cyphermox> could it be because you preseed xkb-keymap?
[21:18] <powersj> I could pull that out and re-kick them off
[21:18] <powersj> is that not a valid option?
[21:18] <cyphermox> I don't really think it would make a difference since I did my test with it too
[21:18] <cyphermox> but technically we don't really support that
[21:20] <cyphermox> anything might be different between the /proc/cmdline on bionic and artful?
[21:24] <necrophcodr> It is possible to have an application that binds to a port, forcibly bind to a unix socket instead?
[21:24] <necrophcodr> And if not, is it somehow possible to force it to only bind to that port in a specific namespace, and to communicate with that specific namespace on that port?
[21:24] <cyphermox> powersj: I should already have been prompted for it (I just started a preseeded install again)
[21:25] <powersj> cyphermox: can I see what pressed you are using?
[21:25] <cyphermox> sure
[21:25] <cyphermox> http://people.canonical.com/~mtrudel/preseed/utah-bionic.cfg
[21:26] <cyphermox> I changed it to comment out xkb-keymap just before starting this install, but with it yesterday it was working well too
[21:27] <cyphermox> I am getting prompted here and there for things (hostname, which drive to format, etc), but I didn't set priority=critical to give it more chance to prompt.
[21:29] <powersj> cyphermox: interesting, that pressed locally works for me, which is further than I got before :)
[21:29] <powersj> only change was commenting out the xkb-keymap?
[21:31] <cyphermox> well, yeah, and commenting out unrelated things I just didn't want to add that are for utah
[21:32] <cyphermox> xkb-keymap makes no difference here -- there's clearly a bug in what I'm trying to do, since I'm not getting the us:intl keymap I expect
[21:32] <cyphermox> but that's different from prompting.
[21:32] <cyphermox> it could just be that it's not called "intl"
[21:34] <cyphermox> nah, it really is "intl"
[21:35] <cyphermox> something looks not right, but it's not the same thing as prompting for something it already has in preseed, so I don't know what to tell you
[21:36] <powersj> ok let me go play with the tests again then, as it does look like something changed
[21:38] <cyphermox> ah?
[21:38] <cyphermox> I'd really be on the lookout for auto=true and priority=critical not being in the command-line, if that's the case then the preseed would not be applied yet, which would explain getting prompted for keyboard
[21:40] <powersj> cyphermox: I only see debconf/priority=critical
[21:40] <powersj> auto=true required?
[21:40] <cyphermox> powersj: not really
[21:47] <cyphermox> powersj: can you remind me the url to utah? I believe I still have access
[21:47] <powersj> cyphermox: the project itself or where we run the tests?
[21:51] <cyphermox> just the url of the jenkins, I can't seem to find it anymore
[21:52] <powersj> https://platform-qa-jenkins.ubuntu.com/view/server/
[21:53] <cyphermox> ah, thanks!
[21:56] <powersj> The daily xenial test shows keyboard-configuration/layout as "30 question skipped", yet bionic is reporting "0 question will be asked"
[21:56] <powersj> They use the same preseed
[21:57] <cyphermox> yeah, but xenial vs. bionic is not a very useful comparison
[21:57] <cyphermox> would be better to compare very late cycle artful
[21:57] <srgjames> I could use someone who is smart. So i just reset up an apache web server on Ubuntu and could use the ip address in a url to access the default page. I then went back and created the files in sites-available Im pretty sure correctly but now cant get to the site from url or ipaddress and no errors when i restart apache2.. Anyway I can check if i set up the wrong settings on DigitalOcean or Google Domains ?
[21:58] <powersj> cyphermox: same with artful, last test was 27 days ago https://platform-qa-jenkins.ubuntu.com/view/smoke-default/job/ubuntu-artful-server-amd64-smoke-default/173/artifact/log/utah-56128-artful-server-amd64/installer/
[22:00] <cyphermox> powersj: yeah
[22:00] <cyphermox> the preseed isn't quite the same though
[22:01] <powersj> other than adding the xkb-keymap they should be the same
[22:01] <powersj> which I added because I thought it needed it :\
[22:01] <cyphermox> nah
[22:01] <cyphermox> it might actually be breaking things, as it resets some values
[22:01] <powersj> ok let me revert that then
[22:02] <powersj> but it was broken before I added it :\
[22:02] <cyphermox> I don't understand though, because I tried with both options
[22:12] <powersj> cyphermox: Here is what is appending to the cmdline: -append netcfg/get_hostname=utah-6554-bionic-server-ppc64el log_host=<IP_ADDRESS> log_port=0 DEBCONF_DEBUG=developer debconf/priority=critical
[22:21] <cyphermox> yeah, but that's not anything special, nothing wrong
[22:51] <powersj> cyphermox: I got an install syslog from a bionic install by pressing enter
[22:52] <powersj> Comparing it to artful and before it asks me for the keyboard layout I see "Nov 15 21:37:51 debconf: --> GET debconf/priority Nov 15 21:37:51 debconf: <-- 0 high"
[22:52] <powersj> whereas in artful it says critical
[22:58] <nacc> rbasak: my branch cuts ipsec-tools full reimport time from 68 to about 40 minutes. Still working on checking the correctness
[23:00] <powersj> cyphermox: artful: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25970598/ bionic: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25970599/
[23:01] <cyphermox> powersj: ack, I'll dig in to that
[23:01] <powersj> thx
[23:40] <nacc> rbasak: i'm thinking we should add a 'git repository comarison' function to the integration tests and have that help us assert hash abi breaks. We have the as-imported repository now, and we can see if the hashes change on a reimport at a given commit.
[23:40] <nacc> powersj: is it possible to make a given pipeline stage a warning, but not a failure, or provide a flag to say "we know this breaks ABI, pass CI ayways"?
[23:41] <powersj> nacc: I am not sure
[23:41] <nacc> powersj: ok, np -- it's ok for it to be a failure anyways, in theory, we want that to trigger a manaul examinationn
[23:42] <nacc> powersj: as developers, we knonw (currently) when to expect a chagne to break hashes and when not
[23:42] <powersj> nacc: looks like https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/JENKINS-45579 is what we want
[23:43] <nacc> powersj: ok, thanks
[23:52] <nacc> rbasak: heh, i'm finally looking at your branch (not final review) a lot of what my branch does as well is prefix -> ref_namespace (aka ref_prefix).


[00:04] <sveinse> penguin42: excellent, thanks. It works using the Linaro PPA. I'll comment that on the bug
[00:05] <penguin42> no problem
[00:35] <broder> ugh. looks like upstart's test suite works fine on the buildds, but errors out on my oneiric laptop: http://paste.ubuntu.com/729586/
[00:46] <penguin42> broder: could be a load of differences I guess; don't the buildd's tend to run with fairly old kernels?
[00:47] <broder> penguin42: they do - i believe they're generally the previous lts. i know that libnih and upstart's test suites have caught weird kernel bugs in the past and i'm afraid i'm going to end up chasing a similar rabbit hole or something. trying to get a minimal test case
[00:47] <penguin42> broder: Or it could be an interaction of the upstart/packages on the laptop I guess
[03:39] <lacqui> Hi.  Trying to fix my first bug here (bug #885329).  I've followed the instructions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix but I'm getting the following error:
[03:39] <lacqui> debian/rules:4: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk: No such file or directory
[03:42] <bjsnider> lacqui, install cdbs on your build system
[03:42] <bjsnider> apt-get build-dep eggdrop
[03:42] <lacqui> bjsnider: thanks
[03:42] <lacqui> like I said, first bug :P
[05:38] <lacqui> Is this the right place to request a review for a bug fix? (#885329)
[05:54] <sladen> lacqui: let me have a look
[06:03] <lacqui> sladen: thanks
[13:13] <pgquiles> I'm the maintainer of the 'witty' package. In Oneiric, the package does not work because it was apparently built against a buggy jQuery ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/witty/+bug/886456 ). How can I get an update (actually, a rebuild) included in oneiric-updates :-?
[13:16] <tumbleweed> pgquiles: request a rebuild in the bug and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
[13:16] <pgquiles> tumbleweed: thank you
[13:17] <tumbleweed> it probably should symlink to libjs-jquery's jquery rather than bundling it, although that's not without caveats either (see the recent discussion in debian-devel)
[13:17] <Chipzz> pgquiles: actually it depends what you mean. You didn't specify if you wanted an update of your package or of jquery
[13:18] <pgquiles> Chipzz: my package
[13:18] <pgquiles> tumbleweed: witty symlinks to jquery on build, but it converts jquery to C++ and embeds it in the .so
[13:18] <pgquiles> tumbleweed: I was part of the discussion in debian-devel :-)
[13:19] <tumbleweed> converts jquery to C++? eep
[13:20] <Chipzz> pgquiles: exactly how do you intend to convert jquery into C++??
[13:20] <hyperair> O_o
[13:21] <Chipzz> jQuery is a CLIENT-side javascript library. C++ is (at best) used in your software which is SERVER-side
[13:21] <hyperair> maybe it's something elfrc
[13:21] <hyperair> stuff the jquery source code into a .so file that can spit out things on the server side?
[13:21]  * hyperair shrugs
[13:22] <Chipzz> hyperair: jQuery will NEVER run server-side
[13:22] <Chipzz> because it operates on the DOM
[13:22] <hyperair> Chipzz: read what i said carefully.
[13:22] <pgquiles> Chipzz: tumbleweed: on build, Wt takes jquery.min.js and generates a C++ file, which is compiled into the .so
[13:23] <hyperair> Chipzz: elfrc embeds arbitrary files into elf objects. since it's a built-in httpd, it wouldn't be unplausible to have it serve jquery.js from a static string somewhere
[13:23] <pgquiles> Wt is not like PHP. Webapps using Wt are real programs (binaries), the result of compiling C++. Instead of reading jquery.min.js every time from disk, it is streamed from memory
[13:23] <hyperair> right, see, that's what i said.
[13:23] <Chipzz> hyperair: that would be a big big BIG facepalm
[13:23] <hyperair> Chipzz: it's serving jquery.min.js from memory instead of reading from disk.
[13:23]  * Chipzz starts to understand the sentiment against web developers on #debian-devel
[13:24] <pgquiles> Chipzz: developing web apps with Wt is more like developing a desktop app with Qt
[13:24] <pgquiles> C++, a copycat of the Qt API, etc
[13:24] <pgquiles> :-)
[13:24] <pgquiles> great for embedded and/or high-performance
[13:24] <Chipzz> pgquiles: as someone who does web development as a full-time job I have 3 words for you: WHAT. THE. FUCK?
[13:25] <pgquiles> Chipzz: http://webtoolkit.eu
[13:25] <pgquiles> I gave up on Rails when I started using Wt
[13:25] <hyperair> Chipzz: hey it's not so bad, it's like CGI except without the exec() overhead?
[13:25]  * hyperair wouldn't mind doing native code webapps.
[13:25] <hyperair> it could turn out to be pretty performant.
[13:26] <pgquiles> it's not only native code, it's also the API: forget about pages, etc. It's like a desktop app.
[13:26] <pgquiles> hyperair: in fact, you can also compile the webapp to a FastCGI module instead of using the embedded HTTP server
[13:26] <hyperair> pgquiles: in all my life in web development, i've always looked down upon *anything* that autogenerates my html code for m.e
[13:26] <Chipzz> hyperair: for what gain exactly? serving jquery.min.js a couple of ms faster? taking in mind that jquery.min.js is minized already... if performance REALLY matters that much, put a reverse proxy in front of it. but for the love of god, why obscure your web application in such a way???
[13:27] <hyperair> Chipzz: *shrug* i'm talking about the idea of webtoolkit in general, not the jquery instance.
[13:28] <hyperair> Chipzz: also a reverse proxy is sometimes a rather overengineered solution.
[13:28] <Chipzz> hyperair: not as overengineered as compiling jquery.min.js into a .so :|
[13:28] <pgquiles> Chipzz: because that way when you want to deploy your webapp, you only need to deploy ONE single executable that embeds everything
[13:28] <hyperair> Chipzz: the framework's already there. i don't think it's really that overengineered.
[13:28] <hyperair> Chipzz: it probably ends up even simpler.
[13:29] <hyperair> Chipzz: especially at the deployment stage
[13:30] <Chipzz> pgquiles: which matters exactly nada since you're packaging it. you deploy your webapp by using apt-get install or dpkg -i
[13:31] <pgquiles> Chipzz: not everybody packages everything. Especially on embedded, Windows, mobile, etc
[13:32] <Chipzz> pgquiles: no, but you are asking specifically in the context of packaging it
[13:32] <hyperair> pgquiles: does witty generate this one-executable-binary thing for new webapps?
[13:32] <pgquiles> Chipzz: sorry, I don't follow. The 'witty' package contains the libraries to develop webapplications, not an aplication
[13:33] <hyperair> pgquiles: i.e. it generates the single-executable-webapp?
[13:33] <hyperair> pgquiles: like a funky linker?
[13:33] <pgquiles> hyperair: yes, it does. Just like against wthttp and it will embed the HTTP(S) server. If you'd rather generate a FastCGI module, just link to wtfcgi.
[13:33] <hyperair> wtfcgi
[13:33] <pgquiles> hyperair: Wt webapps are developed in C++ and compiled and linked using gcc and ld
[13:33] <hyperair> i like that name.
[13:34] <Chipzz> pgquiles: same difference really.
[13:34] <pgquiles> it's not "link a funky linker" but "using a funky linker" :-)
[13:34] <hyperair> Chipzz: so there you have it. witty isn't a web server. it provides the tools to make a one-executable webserver.
[13:34] <pgquiles> that's it
[13:34] <hyperair> Chipzz: with embedded webapp.
[13:34] <Chipzz> hyperair: like I just said, same difference. unless witty is some sort of "compiler" instead of a "library"
[13:34] <hyperair> Chipzz: that's exactly what i'm talking about.
[13:35] <hyperair> Chipzz: more like a runtime that's statically linked with your webapp.
[13:35] <pgquiles> Chipzz: witty is a C++ library. You use it like you use Gtk+, Qt, libc, etc
[13:35] <Chipzz> static linking? this keeps getting better and better
[13:35] <pgquiles> Chipzz: or dynamic linking, your choice
[13:35] <hyperair> Chipzz: it's a one-executable webapp-cum-server. wtf else do you expect it to be besides static linking?!
[13:36] <Chipzz> hyperair: do I need to point out debians and ubuntus stance about static linking?
[13:36] <hyperair> it's something you throw at somebody and tell them to execute to host a web server with said webapp
[13:36] <pgquiles> libwt*-dev include the static libraries and the dynamic libraries
[13:36] <hyperair> Chipzz: it's for *your own* web app.
[13:36] <hyperair> Chipzz: something you're going to throw at $other_distro to run.
[13:37] <Chipzz> hyperair: what happens when it turns out the version of jquery witty is currently shipping turns out to be buggy?
[13:37] <hyperair> Chipzz: then you binNMU.
[13:37] <pgquiles> Chipzz: actually, then you run into the discussion from debian-devel
[13:38] <Chipzz> all the reverse deps? including all the webapps you compiled against witty and you sent off god-knows-where?
[13:38] <pgquiles> Chipzz: if you replace jquery, probably the webapp breaks because it's not ready for that new version of  the javascript library
[13:38] <pgquiles> Chipzz: just dynamic link, man
[13:38] <hyperair> Chipzz: pgquiles said you can dynamically link your webapp anyways, so...
[13:38] <pgquiles> static linking is your choice and it's not the default
[13:38] <pgquiles> (CMake picks the so's by default)
[13:39] <Chipzz> I think I'm going to retract from this discussion in order not to induce self-inflicted harm by repeatedly banging my head against the wall. laters
[13:39] <hyperair> Chipzz: i don't know much about wt, this being the first time i'm hearing about it, but all your points so far has been off-mark.
[13:39] <hyperair> your strawman is burning very brightly
[13:40] <pgquiles> Chipzz: try Wt, then tell me what you think. After using it :-)
[13:41] <hyperair> pgquiles: he probably won't, due to his set preconceptions against it.
[13:42] <pgquiles> I have to admit the first time I read about Wt I thought it was crazy or plain stupid. Turns out it works beautifully and it's extremely performant.
[13:43] <hyperair> i'll just say this out loud first: i dislike qt's way of reimplementing half the C++ standard library.
[13:44] <hyperair> if wt does the same thing, i won't touch it with a 100-foot pole.
[13:44] <hyperair> case in point QString
[13:44] <pgquiles> hyperair: Qt needed to do that. Back then, C++ compilers were so broken and/or incomplete there was no other way to support other Unices.
[13:45] <hyperair> pgquiles: that's in the past. qt4 could have dropped that.
[13:45] <pgquiles> hyperair: Wt uses Boost, it does not reimplement
[13:45] <hyperair> oh goody.
[13:45] <pgquiles> hyperair: no, Qt 4 could not do that
[13:45] <pgquiles> case in point: Solaris
[13:45] <hyperair> pgquiles: typedefs blah blah thin wrappers
[13:45] <pgquiles> HP-UX
[13:45] <pgquiles> AIX
[13:45] <hyperair> people use that crap?
[13:45]  * hyperair coughs
[13:45] <pgquiles> you'd be surprised how many companies use Boost
[13:45] <hyperair> i'm not talking about boost
[13:46] <hyperair> i'm talking about solaris/hp-ux/aix
[13:46] <pgquiles> sure, less and less, but it's still widely used
[13:46] <hyperair> boost is superbly awesome.
[13:46] <pgquiles> heck, even SCO still has some clients left! :-D
[13:46] <hyperair> yes, why couldn't qt use boost?
[13:46] <pgquiles> back then Boost did not provide all it provides now
[13:46]  * hyperair mumbles something about how it should die in a fire already
[13:46] <hyperair> pgquiles: qt4 is fairly recent. boost was very mature by then
[13:46] <pgquiles> also, Boost does not promise binary compatibility across versions
[13:46] <pgquiles> not even now
[13:46] <hyperair> oh right, that.
[13:46]  * hyperair sighs
[13:47] <pgquiles> Qt4 was released in 2005, started in 2003
[13:47] <pgquiles> Qt 5 will be released early 2012
[13:47] <pgquiles> also, C++ still does not provide introspection capabilities
[13:47] <hyperair> nor will it ever.
[13:47] <pgquiles> which is one of the main features moc provides
[13:47] <hyperair> i find it a disgusting bastardization of C++
[13:47] <pgquiles> even Glib has resorted to invent a mechanism for introspection
[13:48] <hyperair> that's because C has no OO capabilities.
[13:48] <pgquiles> the fact that C does not provide classes does not mean it has no OO capabilities
[13:48] <pgquiles> Glib and Gtk are OO with C
[13:49] <hyperair> correction: with C/GObject.
[13:49] <hyperair> it's all part of GObject's API
[13:49] <hyperair> it's not pure C.
[13:49] <hyperair> for the record, gobject's reference counting has driven me up the wall many a time
[13:49] <pgquiles> grammatically you are right
[13:49]  * hyperair sighs
[13:50] <hyperair> my definition of standard C is what ##c has.
[13:50] <hyperair> and my definition of standard C++ is what ##c++ has.
[13:50] <hyperair> by those definitions, i am correct in saying that C has no OO capabilities, period.
[13:50] <hyperair> not "grammatically" or "technically" or any crap like that.
[13:54] <hyperair> but GObject/C is better than Qt/Moc in the sense that it is implemented in standard C, rather than requiring some funky preprocessor to do stuff prior to compilation.
[13:54] <hyperair> when you need a preprocessor that's not the standard C++ preprocessor, it's no longer C++.
[13:57] <maco> What is moc?
[13:59] <penguin42> hyperair: It's not too unusual to have preprocessed stuff before your lang
[13:59] <pgquiles> maco: the metaobject compoiler
[13:59] <pgquiles> hyperair: GObject introspection requires the use of the gir scanner, which is essentially the same as moc
[14:00] <hyperair> pgquiles: there is a difference.
[14:00] <pgquiles> maco: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/moc.html
[14:00] <hyperair> pgquiles: the gir scanner scans the *exact* same thing as the input to gcc.
[14:00] <hyperair> pgquiles: the input to moc isn't the same thing that goes into g++
[14:04] <penguin42> hyperair: All of these things are just signs that neith C or c++ quite fits into the view of what the GUI programmers need
[14:05] <penguin42> hyperair: Which I guess is why you get things like Vala
[14:05] <hyperair> penguin42: or people could use C#! \o/
[14:05] <penguin42> hyperair: Yeh
[14:05]  * hyperair holds up his evil mono supporter flag
[14:05]  * penguin42 burns it
[14:05] <hyperair> >=O
[14:06] <hyperair> penguin42: gtkmm is standard C++ though.
[14:07]  * penguin42 hasn't played with it
[14:09] <hyperair> it's good stuff. unfortunately it doesn't work with gobject introspection
[14:09] <hyperair> so C++-implemented widgets can only be used by other gtkmm things
[14:40] <mewerner_arand> When was the installer modified to use @ + @home subvolumes for btrfs? Did it appear in natty? I'm making a layout section on the wiki: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/btrfs#Ubuntu-specific_subvolume_layout
[14:41] <hyperair> @?
[14:41] <udevbot_> Error: "?" is not a valid command.
[14:41] <hyperair> that's pretty cool
[14:42] <mewerner_arand> hyperair: the subvolume tat holds "/" is named "@", yes.
[17:19] <hlamer> May package in PPA depend in package in another PPA? (Or what is the right channel for this question?)
[17:21] <broder> hlamer: at the top-right of the PPA page should be an "Edit PPA dependencies" link. (for reference #launchpad is probably a better channel for discussing PPAs, though)
[17:22] <hlamer> thanks, broder
[17:31] <highvoltage> When will I be able to see my work items in http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/u/jonathan.html ?
[17:31] <highvoltage> Or should I be looking somewhere else?
[19:13] <dupondje> Empathy is broken since last upgrade it seems :(
[19:13] <dupondje> [   88.095003] type=1400 audit(1320603235.045:21): apparmor="DENIED" operation="open" parent=1 profile="/usr/lib/telepathy/telepathy-*" name="/etc/default/apport" pid=1857 comm="telepathy-butte" requested_mask="r" denied_mask="r" fsuid=1000 ouid=0
[20:10] <slangasek> lifeless: lp:~vorlon/launchpad/sbuild-multiarch-syntax test case> where's the right place for me to add this?
[20:11] <lifeless> slangasek: you know, I have no idea :)
[20:12] <lifeless> rather than flailing around with grep etc, I will ask some folk that have done a lot in this area, in a couple of hours
[20:12] <lifeless> how soon do you need this change live?
[20:20] <slangasek> lifeless: the sooner it can go live, the better; there are a number of packages in the base system that need to be switched to make use of this syntax to be cross-buildable
[20:27] <slangasek> lifeless: indeed, 3 out of 5 Prio: required packages that I've looked at so far are affected (acl, attr, bash)
[21:08] <marseillai_> hello
[21:08] <marseillai_> could someone tell me where dh_make store the packager name information ? i'd to change it
[21:09] <jbicha> marseillai_: debian/control
[21:10] <marseillai_> jbicha: i didn't explain weel sorry.
[21:11] <marseillai_> when dh_make build my package it store a wrong name in debian/control I'd like to change the source of this information
[21:11] <marseillai_> it mispel my name
[21:42] <DktrKranz> marseillai_: DEBFULLNAME environment variable
[21:50] <bjsnider> marseillai_, you can store that info in .bashrc, and it may be there
[21:58] <marseillai_> TheMuso: DktrKranz and bjsnider