[05:09] <nhandler> Well, it looks like persia isn't here right now. If he shows up, great. If not, we will try to reschedule this session. Sorry for the inconvenience.
[05:10] <amason> k
[05:11] <amason> can you reschedual for the same time :) i usually miss these b/c of time zone differences
[05:12] <nhandler> amason: We can try, but it ultimately comes down to the availability of the instructors.
[05:12] <amason> yeh i know :)
[05:14] <nhandler> Thanks for coming amason
[05:17] <amason> thanks for holding or intending to hold the event
[05:51] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[05:56] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[06:45] <muppetbaby> is anybody familiar with ubuntu 9.10
[06:46] <muppetbaby> hello
[12:53] <vipin> is ubuntu using upstart ?
[12:55] <Neo31> vipin >>> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/
[12:55] <Neo31> yes it is
[12:56] <vipin> thank you
[18:04] <operador> hi


[14:54] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: re https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1892020
[14:55] <OvenWerks> that code is not used any more. It is a starter for xchat which we don't even ship. (isn't even a depend I guess)
[14:56] <OvenWerks> I can remove the two files, but so far as I know you would have to mess with it anyway to release it.
[14:56] <Eickmeyer> I'll just do it.
[15:00] <OvenWerks> so usr/lib and all it's contents can just go
[15:00] <OvenWerks> oh, no it can't
[15:01] <OvenWerks> usr/lib/ubuntustudio can go.
[15:01] <OvenWerks> systemd needs to remain.
[15:03] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I knew that. The deed is done.
[15:13] <OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-session.target looks outdated as well
[15:13] <OvenWerks> (xfce4-session.service?
[15:18] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: did you remove the python2 from depends?
[15:20] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: doesn't look like it
[15:21] <Eickmeyer> I can still do that.
[15:22] <Eickmeyer> Sorry, having some personal battles with trebmuh. He's a jerk.
[15:25] <Eickmeyer> It was a kick, not a ban.
[15:27] <Eickmeyer> Just tired of him lurking in this channel, never participating, and saying how much he hates Ubuntu elsewhere.
[15:56] <Eickmeyer> His unkindness is a CoC violation, so that's the reason he was kicked, just so everyone knows.
[15:57] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Fixes pushed.
[15:57] <Eickmeyer> uploaded even.
[16:07] <OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/+git/ubuntustudio-default-settings/+ref/master doesn't see to show it.
[16:16] <Eickmeyer> Well, uploaded to the archive.
[16:26] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, pushed now.


[00:58] <esing123> bioterror hi
[00:58] <esing123> i need help to switch to unity from LXDE
[00:58] <esing123> someone present?
[01:03] <esing123> theblakebrown hi
[01:47] <user___> Who developer?
[03:11] <mi3> HI!
[03:41] <phillip69> what network manager does lubuntu use
[11:43] <MassiveTR> hey anybody has a lubuntu theme for sticker screenlet?
[12:44] <leszek> hi
[12:51] <_jay> hey all, I just installed the lubuntu package over a xubuntu install, i have some panel questions. I moved the default one to the top and added a bottom panel, but right click>add panel items brings up an empty menu. I've rebooted and the same thing occurs.
[15:11] <daker-cloud> hi
[17:04] <sdfsd> Hey
[17:04] <sdfsd> guys
[17:04] <sdfsd> is there lubuntu-restricted-extras? I cannot find it
[17:05] <leszek> sdfsd: nope there isn't why ?
[17:05] <sdfsd> what? lol
[17:05] <sdfsd> so I cannot install it?
[17:06] <leszek> there is no such package as far as I know
[17:06] <sdfsd> it is for ubuntu, kubuntu and xubuntu but for lubuntu?
[17:06] <sdfsd> =|
[17:06] <leszek> why do you need such a package ?
[17:06] <sdfsd> For codecs?
[17:06] <sdfsd> is it ok if I install the ubuntu one?
[17:06] <leszek> codecs are supported out of the box
[17:06] <leszek> nope ubuntu uses gstreamer stuff
[17:07] <sdfsd> damn
[17:07] <leszek> gnome mplayer should playback everything
[17:07] <leszek> or what is your exact problem
[17:07] <leszek> ?
[17:07] <sdfsd> I want to play dvd and stuff
[17:08] <sdfsd> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-restricted-extras
[17:08] <leszek> libdvdcss is what you need
[17:08] <sdfsd> yeah
[17:09] <sdfsd> that;s for dvds
[17:09] <sdfsd> but I want to be able to play anything. like on Windows
[17:10] <sdfsd> found it
[17:10] <sdfsd> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/amd64/lubuntu-restricted-extras/56
[17:10] <leszek> sdfsd: as I said it can playback everything
[17:10] <sdfsd> is it the right one?
[17:10] <leszek> this package will install not a single codec
[17:10] <sdfsd> ??
[17:10] <leszek> its a package to install the flashplayer plugin aswell as html5 video support for chromium
[17:11] <sdfsd>  Installing this package will pull in support for Java runtime environment,
[17:11] <sdfsd>  Microsoft fonts, Flash plugin, DVD playback, LAME (to create compressed audio
[17:11] <sdfsd>  files) and patent codecs for Chromium.
[17:11] <sdfsd>  .
[17:11] <sdfsd>  Please note that this does not install libdvdcss2, and will not let you play
[17:11] <sdfsd>  encrypted DVDs. For more information, see
[17:11] <sdfsd> Downloaded the .deb thing, It's only 2 KB
[17:11] <leszek> its a metapackage for it see: http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/lubuntu-restricted-addons
[17:11] <leszek> ah restricted-extras xD
[17:11] <leszek> sry
[17:12] <leszek> sdfsd: just install libavcodec-extra-53 this is everything you need
[17:12] <sdfsd> Hmm thanks
[17:13] <sdfsd> one question
[17:13] <sdfsd> how do I enable multiverse?
[17:13] <sdfsd> oh
[17:14] <sdfsd> it's enabled already
[17:15] <sdfsd> one more thing
[17:15] <sdfsd> shouldn't the network notification icon change or something when I am connected?
[17:19] <sdfsd> leszek, are you there? ;D
[17:20] <leszek> sdfsd: yep again
[17:20] <leszek> 1:1 spain italy btw.
[17:20] <sdfsd> :0
[17:20] <leszek> sdfsd: it should change when you are connected
[17:20] <sdfsd> It doesn't
[17:21] <leszek> strange
[17:21] <leszek> using the default icon theme ?
[17:21] <sdfsd> It looks like in this img: http://www.osside.net/wp-content/gallery/lubuntu12b/lubu12b1b.jpg
[17:21] <sdfsd> everything is default
[17:21] <sdfsd> just installed it
[17:22] <sdfsd> I mean, it's exactly like in the pic, I guess that's 12.04 too
[17:22] <leszek> yeah ok then thats normal
[17:23] <sdfsd> but when I disconnect it looks the same.
[17:23] <sdfsd> On xubuntu there were two arrows
[17:23] <sdfsd> )
[17:23] <sdfsd> anyways, ty
[18:18] <SpyderZ> *Sigh* I feel like I'm overlooking something obvious again. Q: How do I rename a directory full of files in a write protected location. Using the Default File Manager give me an Access Denied Error, and using the Sudo mv command either doesn't move the contents, or returns a stat no such directory. ;?
[18:29] <SpyderZ> O.o! I apologize if I'm being rude, the last time I was here, I was told to just ask your question instead of greeting the room. ;? (Or I guess the room could be full of sleepers. ;P )
[18:36] <sarbojit> SpyderZ, it would be nice if you haven't typed so many emoticons.
[18:36] <smile> bye :)
[18:39] <SpyderZ> sarbojit:  I mean no offense (And the channels I frequent tend not to care) but if it is "Taboo" in the support channel I'll watch it.
[18:40] <sarbojit> Not a taboo but certainly is a frown giver :-)
[18:40] <sarbojit> What did you execute in terminal?
[18:41] <SpyderZ> sudo mv -t /etc/etc/etc /etc/etc/etc2
[18:43] <SpyderZ> I was able to change the name by cd to the directory and sudo mv etc etc2... but the files within didn't move, and I had to rename it back to get the files to show up again.


[07:26] <aziwee> hi
[19:38] <Guest5869> Lubuntu latest LTS system requirements ?
[19:42] <Guest5869> how much size needs that OS EFI system partition ?
[19:42] <Guest5869> how much free space needs that os to run fluid ?
[19:53] <xangua> I have my EFI partition set to 300mb, I've been told that's that the installer suggest Guest5869
[19:57] <Guest5869> can someone install  HDD Regenerator 2024 v<IP_ADDRESS> full downloaded from https://es.taiwebs.com/windows/download-hdd-regenerator-9948.html in a live session of latest LTS lubuntu ?
[19:59] <xangua> You're not gonna repair your hard drive with a software Guest5869
[19:59] <wxl> also, no. it needs windows, not linux


[09:12] <lordievader> Good morning.
[13:36] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
 Hey all, traveling this weekend. Will have my laptop next week though and somewhat available.
 Cool, hope you can make Core Team meeting on Weds


[13:50] <PaulePanter> apw: A late thank you for //kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/config.
[13:52] <PaulePanter> I was looking for CONFIG_FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE_DEFERRED_TAKEOVER=y and am going to ask Debian to do the same.


[00:02] <sparky_> hey guys, (the noob back :)),  i have a general question about where to mount my share dir for the mass my files on my raid.  I know it's probably just a personal preference but is there a typical location to mnt my raid to share it on my home network?
[00:04] <olcafo> default mount location for ubuntu is /media/yourdrive
[00:05] <jlc> nfs and stuff like that, I'll do an /export/home or something like that
[00:06] <jlc>  krutch.local:/home    2.4T  1.4T  911G  60% /export/home
[00:06] <jlc> 8)
[00:08] <sparky_> when i set it up i can make it where my mac see //servername/dirname  ?  Because I have all my music mapped to a certain path and I don't feel like repoint over 6.5k worth of music (and no that isn't 6.5k memory size, that's number of music files)
[00:21] <twb> IMO you ought to use /srv/nfs or /srv/<something else>
[00:22] <twb> Since /export is not part of the FHS 2.3.
[00:29] <hads> Yeah, /srv/foo or /mnt/foo rather than /foo
[00:29] <hads> I'm not up on the specs for what goes on in /media
[00:31] <twb> hads: /media is for removable media; /mnt is for temporary mounts
[00:31] <twb> e.g. "argh, let me just mount one of the RAID1 nodes directly with -o ro for some debugging"
[00:31] <twb> *temporary sysadmin mounts, that is
[00:32] <hads> Yeah, I though /media was mostly for removeable stuff
[00:32] <jlc> if it is for you on your box, you can make it /mydamnmount for the fhs matters :)
[00:33] <hads> True. Though /srv would be the correct place.
[00:37] <sparky_> i'm alittle confused with the /srv? was that directed to me?
[00:41] <sparky_> oh, so it should be  /srv/dirname ?  then I can share it as //servername/dirname  ?
[00:51] <twb> jlc: you might find that things like updatedb.conf default to doing the Right Thing if you follow the FHS.
[00:51] <twb> For example, updatedb skips all of /media and /mnt by default.
[00:52] <twb> But if you mount a removable drive at /im-in-a-hurry-dammit, updatedb will read the entire drive.
[00:52] <jlc> lol
[00:52] <jlc> yeah
[00:52] <twb> Just that bit me on the arse recently because another admin was "clever" and made backup mount points in /b/ and /bb/.
[00:54] <jlc> sounded like sparky was doing it at home, so it didn't matter
[00:54] <jlc> i use export/home at home from my solaris days
[00:54] <sparky_> yea, it's for my home server
[00:54] <jlc> just like calling partitions slices
[00:54] <jlc> :)
[01:02] <kansan> is 1024MB of ram enough for a computer to run ubuntu hardy server?
[01:02] <kansan>  thinking of buying:  DELL GX280 SFF P4 3.4GHz 80GB
[01:02] <kansan> is that enough to install nagios on?
[01:04] <giovani3> kansan: there's no generic advise on specs -- it all depends on the load on the server
[01:04] <giovani3> advice*
[01:05] <giovani3> nagios will run on 64 or 128 MB of ram probably ... not that I'd recommend it for production
[01:05] <twb> giovani3: you wouldn't recommend nagios for production?
[01:05] <giovani3> twb: read what I said
[01:05] <giovani3> twb: I was clearly referring to the amount of ram
[01:05] <twb> giovani3: you said "it"; it's not clear which "it" you're- OK.
[01:05] <twb> It wasn't clear to me.
[01:05] <giovani3> heh
[01:06] <giovani3> nope, nagios is nice for production work, I've been meaning to finish up that book, "Pro Nagios 2.0"
[01:06] <giovani3> other things got in the way mid-read
[01:06] <twb> kansan: 1GiB of RAM is adequate for *some* roles.  It depends what the server will be doing.
[01:06] <mister2> hey i have a quick question, what is the command to see what php version i have installed?
[01:08] <kansan> twb, i want to install nagios on it and use it to monitor production websites
[01:08] <twb> kansan: and will the host be doing anything *other* than nagios?
[01:08] <kansan> and also, to runa  configuration management server called chef
[01:08] <giovani3> mister2: php -v I presume
[01:08] <kansan> that has apache as a front end
[01:08] <mister2> thanks, will try it
[01:09] <giovani3> mister2: in general, -v is used to print the version of applications -- when in doubt, read the manpage ("man php" in this case)
[01:09] <hads> dpkg -l | grep php
[01:10] <kansan> what would my ideal box specs be if i want to run:  nagios, chef-server, apache (only to connect to chef, a ruby based configuration management server)
[01:12] <twb> kansan: I haven't done that before, but I'm guessing 1GiB would be adequate.
[01:13] <twb> kansan: usually it's easy to stuff in up to 4GiB, so you have an easy upgrade for RAM if that turns out to be inadqeuate.
[01:13] <giovani3> 1GB should be plenty to start at least ... unless you're monitoring 100+ hosts in nagios
[01:13] <kansan> no i'm just monitoring like 10
[01:13] <giovani3> you'll be more than fine then
[01:14] <giovani3> however, apache can be a ram hog
[01:14] <kansan> ok good to know
[01:14] <giovani3> I'd advise, honestly, against running apache just to provide yourself web management
[01:14] <giovani3> but, obviously that's up to you
[01:15] <twb> web management is eeeeevil
[01:16] <twb> Even Windows have MMS instead.
[01:16] <giovani3> yeah, except windows isn't any better
[01:16] <giovani3> it renders all of the management consoles using html :)
[01:17] <sparky_> jle and twb: I didn't understand the deal with updatedb.conf,  and how that plays with FHS
[01:34] <twb> sparky_: don't worry about it
[01:35] <twb> sparky_: it's just big boys talk
[01:35] <twb> I should say "grown up" talk ;-)
[01:35] <sparky_> i'm trying to learn that too, lol
[01:36] <trentster> Hey all, How do I stop mail to root@localhost its messing up my postfix stats, it seems to be triggered every time a cron job is fired.....???
[01:37] <sparky_> so for setting up a home file server mnt my raid in /mnt or /srv would be better?
[01:46] <twb> trentster: fix /etc/alias
[01:47] <twb> trentster: i.e. add an alias root<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:47] <twb> trentster: note that cron only emails you if something is broken
[01:48] <trentster> twb, its showing me that the import of awstats log file completed., its starnage beacuase on the cronjob entry at the end of the line i have ">> /dev/null 2>&1"
[01:49] <twb> That should be >, not >>
[01:49] <twb> Not that redirecting all output from a crontab entry is a good thing...
[01:49] <trentster> hmm ok let me change it and see
[01:49] <twb> It'd be better to use --quiet or similar.
[01:50] <trentster> twb, thanks, I dont have much experience with cron entries....to use "--quiet" do I just apend to end of the line....eg my cron entry is as follows.
[01:50] <trentster> "*/5 * * * *  awk 'NF>5{for(i=1;i<=NF;i++){if(i>8&&i+9<NF){printf "%s_",$i}else{printf "%s ",$i}}print ""}' /var/log/xferlog > /var/log/xferlog1 >> /dev/null 2>&1"
[01:51] <twb> Ow.
[01:51] <trentster> it would probably be better to place the awk statement into a script file I gather <grin>
[01:51] <giovani3> it seems to only be emailing STDERR
[01:51] <giovani3> which is fine
[01:52] <giovani3> no?
[01:52] <trentster> giovani3, I dont want anything going through postfix logs as it screws up my awstats
[01:53] <giovani3> yeah, I can't even follow what's going on in that code :)
[01:53] <giovani3> too dense for 10pm
[01:54] <trentster> lol
[02:04] <trentster> giovani3,  ok the mail from that line says "/bin/sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''  any ideas how to silence this?
[02:04] <x409> What is the best groupware i can install on ubuntu ?
[02:04] <giovani3> trentster: well, that's an error -- so fixing it would silence it, or you could stop sending errors to yourself
[02:05] <trentster> giovani3, <grin> I know, I just dont know how to fix it.......I did not write the awk statement.....so I dont know why its giving an error, It is working and doing want it needs to do tho
[02:06] <giovani3> trentster: who wrote it?
[02:07] <trentster> giovani3, an irc helper
[02:23] <twb> Haha
[04:46] <ball> hello doginize
[04:46] <doginize> hi, ball
[06:07] <yeason> I've got a postfix server going, it was working fine then I tried to add spam-assassin to the mix and now nothing works. I'm getting an error "line 96: bad transport type: -o" for the master.cf file. line 96 is a blank line. any suggestions?
[06:14] <yeason> anybody have any ideas at all...?
[06:44] <kraut> moin
[08:06] <Scix> i'm working on a server running cups, but I cant find /usr/share/cups/model. Where is the ppd files listed in ubuntu 8.10?
[08:28] <Scix> Found them. /usr/share/ppd/ :)
[08:30] <maxb> If you want a list of all installed ones, "lpinfo -m".
[08:31] <maxb> For some reason that takes ages to run, I'm not sure why
[08:31] <maxb> Actually it might be loading the printer name out of every PPD
[09:27] <pablasso> i upgraded from server dapper to hardy (everything went smooth :) but the prompt for regular users is screwed. My PS1 is "${debian_chroot:+($debian_chroot)}\[\033[01;31m\]\u@\h\[\033[00m\]:\[\033[01;34m\]\w\[\033[00m\]\$" and the root prompt is ok, but any other user literally prints the PS1 variable instead of using selected dirs and colors
[09:28] <pablasso> damn, that was an ugly text. Anyways, any clue on why all the users prompts (except root) aren't obeying PS1?
[09:36] <okkare> my ssh password and username should be the same as i use to login ot my host machine right?
[10:04] <thefish> okkare: yes
[10:10] <okkare> doesn't seem to work :(
[10:10] <okkare> thefish
[10:10] <thefish> so you can log in locally on the machine with your username and password, but not over ssh?
[10:11] <okkare> how do i specify the username
[10:11] <thefish> ssh username@host
[10:11] <okkare> thanks
[10:13] <okkare> worked :D do you know how to set up a folder to be shared via samba as well by any chance
[10:13] <okkare> via ssh
[10:13] <okkare> say i want to set / to be shared
[10:14] <thefish> okkare: thats probably not a brilliant idea
[10:14] <okkare> i realize that but it would be so much easier for me XD
[10:14] <thefish> check the default samba config, and modify the demo share to suit you
[10:15] <okkare> ok
[10:15] <thefish> okkare: as your attorney, i recommend sharing /srv/smb instead
[10:15] <okkare> and last question, where is the htaccess/www folder?
[10:15] <thefish> why would you want / shared over samba?
[10:16] <thefish> the default webroot for apache on ubuntu is /var/www but it can be wherever you lke
[10:16] <okkare> oh yeah, thought it was etc/www for some reason
[10:16] <okkare> i want to share /var/www then
[10:17] <thefish> fair enough
[10:17] <thefish> okkare: http://www.subvs.co.uk/linux_web_and_file_server_for_windows_users
[10:18] <okkare> thanks
[10:19] <okkare> since you're so helpful :D here's another
[10:20] <okkare> if i have a 1.4ghz, 512md ram, 400kb/s uploadspeed server, how many hits could it handle per hour, with wordpress
[10:20] <thefish> 14
[10:20] <thefish> 15 on tuesdays
[10:20] <okkare> :P
[10:21] <okkare> any idea?
[10:21] <thefish> check out some stress testing tools
[10:21] <thefish> you also need to add another variable there
[10:21] <thefish> acceptable page load time
[10:22] <okkare> right
[10:22] <thefish> install apache2-utils, and i think there is an app called ab in there (apache benchmark tool)
[10:22] <okkare> i'll try that
[10:23] <okkare> but think it could handle 5000+
[10:23] <okkare> and load in less than 5 sec
[10:24] <hads> You just pcik that number arbitrarily?
[10:24] <okkare> that's about what i got with one of my sites hosted elsewhere
[10:25] <thefish> okkare: was that on a dedicated server?
[10:25] <okkare> yeah, with a hosting company
[10:25] <thefish> fair enough
[10:25] <thefish> remember that network speed will also change things
[10:25] <okkare> yeah
[10:26] <okkare> could i handle that with what i have?
[10:26] <thefish> so if you only have a 10M internet connection, it will probably be less than the isp who probably had 100
[10:26] <okkare> mine's like 400kbs
[10:26] <thefish> adsl?
[10:26] <okkare> cable
[10:26] <thefish> that will probably bork out before your apache does
[10:27] <okkare> yeah, that's gonna be the bottleneck
[10:27] <thefish> in fact it would be safe to wager a small amount of money on that fact
[10:27] <thefish> or large, depending on how risk averse you are
[10:27] <okkare> haha, i guess is hould buy some more
[10:28] <okkare> or hack my modem ;)
[10:28] <thefish> heh
[10:29] <okkare> oh wait, my isp now says it's 1mbs
[10:29] <okkare> Mbps that is
[10:29] <okkare> or is it
[10:30] <thefish> that will be your downstream
[10:30] <okkare> hmm well my dad works for the cable co, so maybe he can pull some strings
[10:30] <thefish> why not stay with an isp?
[10:30] <okkare> nope, the download is 15Mbps
[10:30] <thefish> k
[10:31] <okkare> the cable co is the isp
[10:31] <thefish> i mean a dedicated server
[10:32] <thefish> with a nice 100M network connection
[10:32] <okkare> oh, i see
[10:33] <okkare> i guess i just want the expirience
[10:33] <thefish> fair enough
[10:33] <okkare> plus i'll never have to move big files via ftp and all that
[10:33] <thefish> but i dont think you will sustain 5k hits per hour on that line
[10:36] <okkare> :(
[12:04] <Al_lA> okkare - there is some seriously cheap hosting out there eh. we use dreamhost here
[12:05] <Al_lA> virtual servers, you get a terminal interface, can run pretty much any app but they prefer you to stick to web services if you can
[12:05] <okkare> i don't have money though :/
[12:05] <Al_lA> not even like $15 a month?
[12:05] <Al_lA> okay fair enough
[12:06] <okkare> certainly not
[12:06] <Al_lA> i had loads of fun just with IIS on my home line, then apache later
[12:06] <Al_lA> i saw you were using wordpress which i assume is php
[12:07] <okkare> yeah, but i also use magento
[12:07] <Al_lA> remember that php and your probably mysql backend  cache frequent requests so your cpu load is even less than what you'd calculate
[12:08] <okkare> yeah, bandwidth will be my enemy i think
[12:08] <okkare> i think my video card is fried right now... woe is me
[12:08] <okkare> so I'm using my regular desktop as the server
[12:08] <Al_lA> noes... i have a collection of half-fried cards that will work in a pinch but arent dead enough to throw away
[12:08] <Al_lA> i also have an exam in 9 hours so i'm out, 'night
[12:09] <okkare> haha mail me one!
[12:09] <okkare> see you
[12:19] <okkare> hmm i read that guide and didn't really get how to make var/www shared
[12:48] <okkare> i need to set up /var/www to be shared using samba, anyone know how
[12:48] <okkare> i just installed USE
[12:51] <Pres-Gas> okkare, is the machine joined to an active directory domain or using local users and groups?  Also, will the shares need to be accessed outside of your lan?
[12:51] <okkare> everything is default, and lan
[12:52] <Pres-Gas> Oh, so LAN only?
[12:53] <okkare> yepp
[12:54] <Pres-Gas> okkare, this should get you started: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SettingUpSamba#Samba%20Server%20Manual%20Configuration
[12:55] <Pres-Gas> okkare, what web developing software do your people use?
[12:56] <okkare> i use dreamweaver but i'll probably switch to something open source soon
[12:56] <Pres-Gas> Most IDE's have sftp hooks to edit/upload pages in them, then all you need to do is enable sshd and utilize the filesystem permissions.
[12:56] <okkare> oh really?
[12:57] <okkare> neat
[12:57] <Pres-Gas> Yeah, doublechecking with dreamweaver....
[13:01] <Pres-Gas> okkare, doublecheck this with your documentation, but it looks like in the "New Site" dialog, you would select ftp, but there is a checkbox that says to "Use Secure FTP (SFTP)".
[13:02] <okkare> and that just needs ssh to work?
[13:03] <Pres-Gas> Yeah
[13:03] <Pres-Gas> sshd, okkare, not just ssh
[13:04] <Pres-Gas> ubottu, tell okkare about !sshd
[13:04]  * Pres-Gas shakes fist at ubuttu
[13:04] <okkare> is that operating by default on USE 8.10?
[13:09] <Pres-Gas> okkare, you would have to see if you have the openssh-server installed or see if "sudo /etc/init.d/ssh status" gives you anything.
[13:09] <okkare> yeah, that's installed
[13:10] <okkare> i'm using it atm
[13:26] <Brazen> join ubuntu-meeting
[13:27] <Brazen> oops
[13:27] <okkare> hehee
[13:27] <sLaeYa> Hi, I am having problems with ALC for OpenLDAP, when I run the command
[13:27] <sLaeYa> ldapmodify -x -D cn=admin,cn=config -W -f acl-del.ldif
[13:28] <sLaeYa> i get the error: ldapmodify: wrong attributeType at line 3, entry "olcDatabase={1}hdb,cn=config"
[13:28] <sLaeYa> I have used sudo and also root.  I'm not sure what I am doing wrong
[13:28] <Pres-Gas> okkare, then what you may want to do is create a group like webdev, then add your web developers to that...then make your sites group owned by webdev.  You will not want to change the user ownership.
[13:29] <sommer> sLaeYa: can you pastebin the contents of acl-del.ldif?
[13:29] <okkare> so i don't go and edit smb.conf?
[13:30] <sLaeYa> dn: olcDatabase={1}hdb,cn=config
[13:30] <sLaeYa> delete: olcAccess
[13:30] <sLaeYa> olcAccess: to attrs=userPassword,shadowLastChange by dn="cn=admin,dc=example,dc$
[13:30] <sLaeYa> olcAccess: to dn.base="" by * read
[13:30] <sLaeYa> olcAccess: to * by dn="cn=admin,dc=example,dc=tld" write by * read
[13:30] <sLaeYa> sorry ssh was in a small screen ill paste it again
[13:30] <sLaeYa> dn: olcDatabase={1}hdb,cn=config
[13:30] <sLaeYa> delete: olcAccess
[13:30] <sLaeYa> olcAccess: to attrs=userPassword,shadowLastChange by dn="cn=admin,dc=example,dc=tld" write by anonymous auth by self write by * none
[13:30] <sLaeYa> olcAccess: to dn.base="" by * read
[13:30] <sLaeYa> olcAccess: to * by dn="cn=admin,dc=example,dc=tld" write by * read
[13:31] <sommer> !pastbin
[13:31] <sommer> !pastebin
[13:31] <sLaeYa> oh ok, sorry.
[13:31] <okkare> XD
[13:31] <sommer> sLaeYa: are you just trying to remove all ACLs?  I assume so you can change the order?
[13:32] <Pres-Gas> okkare, I almost missed your reply ;)  No, you would not need to edit smb.conf
[13:32] <sommer> sLaeYa: you might try: http://paste.ubuntu.com/132480/
[13:33] <okkare> hmm ok
[13:33] <sLaeYa> to be honest sommer, I think I'm in over my head, I'm attempting to setup a postfix virtual hosting server with ldap backend.
[13:34] <sommer> !serverguide
[13:34] <sommer> sLaeYa: there's a section on both LDAP and postfix in the serverguide
[13:34] <sommer> sLaeYa: you may need more in depth information though
[13:34] <okkare> hmm well i got "private" to show up, pres-gas, by adding it to the smb.conf
[13:35] <okkare> but there's an error
[13:35] <okkare> i'll work it out
[13:35] <Pres-Gas> Keep hammering away, okkare!  :)
[13:36] <sLaeYa> sommer, I actually found a comprehensive guide for installing it on ubuntu intrepid, which I have been following but have found no-one who could help me, however it would appear you have just fixed my problem.
[13:37] <sommer> sLaeYa: party!
[13:37] <okkare> yay got it to work
[13:37] <Pres-Gas> okkare, ssh or smb?
[13:38] <sLaeYa> thanks for your help
[13:38] <sommer> sLaeYa: np
[13:44] <fevel> hi
[13:45] <fevel> how can I send a file to my ubuntu-server
[13:49] <sLaeYa> Where do you want to send it from fevel ?
[13:49] <fevel> from a macbook on the same network
[13:50] <sLaeYa> is there a particular method you want to send it by, do you have ssh setup, or ftp, or samba ?
[13:58] <okkare> !computers
[13:58] <okkare> !anything
[13:58] <okkare> XD
[14:08] <fevel> sorry for the delay  sLaeYa, ssh would be better
[14:13] <Pres-Gas> okkare, you said you got your setup working...with sshd or smb?
[14:14] <okkare> smb, although i can't write
[14:14] <Pres-Gas> That is not helpful, eh?
[14:14] <okkare> not really :/
[14:26] <sLaeYa> fevel you could sue sftp ?
[14:27] <sLaeYa> use*
[14:27] <ball> Does sftp have any money?
[14:29] <sLaeYa> I don't know what you mean by that ball
[14:29] <Pres-Gas> Play on words, sLaeYa
[14:30] <ball> sLaeYa: I was joking because you typed "sue" instead of "use"
[14:30] <Pres-Gas> You said sue...to litigate for money
[14:30]  * ball nods
[14:30] <sLaeYa> Sorry, its just gone past midnight and I've been batteling to keep my eyes open, although I know I have to sort this silly server somehow
[14:33] <sLaeYa> so I have this LDAP server - or believe I have it setup and when I come to adding a user I am presented with Auth Failure http://paste.ubuntu.com/132508/ Am I doing something wrong? Do I need more coffee?
[14:36] <sommer> sLaeYa: are dc=example,dc=tld
[14:36] <sommer> sLaeYa: already created in the directory?
[14:37] <sLaeYa> to see this wouldn't I have to use "ldap search" ?
[14:38] <sommer> sLaeYa: yeppers: ldapsearch -xLLL  is usually what I use
[14:39] <sLaeYa> No such object (32)
[14:42] <sommer> try ldapsearch -xLLL -b dc=example,dc=tld
[14:43] <sLaeYa> i get the same response
[14:43] <sommer> sLaeYa: you can edit /etc/ldap/ldap.conf to set the basedn and connection
[14:44] <sommer> sLaeYa: it's not created then... try ldapsearch -xLLL -b dc=nodomain
[14:44] <sLaeYa> same again :s
[14:45] <sLaeYa> oops
[14:45] <sLaeYa> here is /etc/ldap/ldap.conf http://paste.ubuntu.com/132519/
[14:46] <sommer> sLaeYa: is there anything in the directory yet?  cause if not you can do sudo dpkg-reconfigure slapd and set the base
[14:46] <sLaeYa> I dont have anything in slapd directory
[14:47] <sommer> sLaeYa: I'd just run the dpkg-reconfigure then... you should then be able to add entries
[14:47] <sLaeYa> do you mind if i give you a link to the readme I'm following ?
[14:49] <sommer> sLaeYa: it must be dated... the serverguide OpenLDAP section is updated for Intrepid
[14:49] <sLaeYa> yes I guess your right, I'm just reading some of the comments on the bottom of it now
[14:50] <sommer> sLaeYa: I'd recommend following the serverguide for the openldap part, then the other guide when it comes to postfix configuration... or at least the postfix ldap configuration
[14:50] <sommer> you might use the serverguide instructions for the base postfix config, then ldap after everything is working
[14:52] <sLaeYa> !serverguide
[14:53] <ScottK> mathiaz: I won't be able to make the meeting today.  Enjoy.
[14:58] <sLaeYa> is there a way to delete my old database sommer ?
[14:58] <sommer> sLaeYa: dpkg-reconfigure will take care of that
[14:59] <sLaeYa> I am getting an error when making the new one because the way I have setup my last one -  http://paste.ubuntu.com/132526/ - the reconfigure didn't and I've run it a couple of times with the different options
[15:00] <sommer> sLaeYa: do you have an ou=people?
[15:00] <sLaeYa> no
[15:00] <sommer> sLaeYa: you'll need to create that first
[15:04] <nealmcb> need to update the meeting time on the fridge - still says 16:00 utc
[15:04] <mathiaz> ok - let's get the Ubuntu Server Team meeting started here
[15:04] <ttx> \o/
[15:04] <nijaba> o/
[15:05] <sLaeYa> thats not shown in the serverguide part I'm reading, is there a different part in the server guide on how to create those ?
[15:05] <mathiaz> since there is a conflict with the Asia Membership board
[15:05]  * ball waves
[15:05] <ball> I didn't get time to read the agenda
[15:05] <mathiaz> and we'll be in the same situation next week again
[15:05] <mathiaz> so - let's get the server team meeting started
[15:05] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[15:05] <nealmcb> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[15:06] <mathiaz> nealmcb: thanks!
[15:06] <ScottK> Oh.  I guess I won't miss the meeting then.
[15:06] <nealmcb> :)
[15:06] <mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090310
[15:06] <kirkland> o/
[15:07] <ScottK> o-
[15:07] <mathiaz> I don't seen any specific items from last week
[15:08] <mathiaz> anyone has anything to add regarding topics discussed last week
[15:08] <mathiaz> ?
[15:08] <zoopster> Documentation for Eucalyptus in Ubuntu
[15:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: we delayed the screen-profiles talk until zul got back
[15:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok - I'll add to today's agenda
[15:09] <ttx> mathiaz: I would like to talk about likewise-open5
[15:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'd also like to discuss testing kvm-84 in hardy
[15:09] <zul> hi
[15:09] <mathiaz> ttx: ok
[15:09] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok
[15:09] <ttx> so as an item from last week or an item for this week, your choice :)
[15:10] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] KVM backport in hardy
[15:10] <mathiaz> kirkland: ^^ ?
[15:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'd like to ask for some assistance testing a kvm-84 package that i've prepared for hardy
[15:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: its available in a PPA at https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-virt/+archive/ppa
[15:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: here's the basic premise ...
[15:11] <kirkland> mathiaz: hardy shipped with kvm-62
[15:11] <ScottK> kirkland: When you have a tested backport and you need it approved, feel free to ping me.
[15:11] <kirkland> ScottK: understood, thanks.
[15:11] <kirkland> ScottK: kvm is such an important package, i'm asking for a bit more extensive testing that what i can do alone
[15:12] <kirkland> also, we're talking about more than just applying a couple of bug fixes...
[15:12] <kirkland> we're talking about taking hardy's kvm from kvm-62 to kvm-84
[15:12] <kirkland> there's both a kernel piece, and a userspace element
[15:12] <ScottK> kirkland: +1 for lots of testing.
[15:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: ie the goal is to prepare an SRU for kvm in hardy?
[15:13] <zul> just a quesiton how are you going to backport the virtio stuff in the hardy kernel for kvm
[15:13] <kirkland> these can be upgraded independently, though I'm suggesting we backport both
[15:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, SRU which actually provides a major version bump
[15:13] <kirkland> zul: kvm-source provides the kernel space bits
[15:13] <ScottK> Ah.  If it's SRU, then not mine to approve.
[15:14] <kirkland> zul: that package is a dkms-built kernel module
[15:14] <kirkland> i'm getting sidetracked here ....
[15:14] <zul> kirkland: heh ill talk to you about it after
[15:14] <kirkland> so the key points are that we believe that kvm-62 has become unsupportable
[15:14] <kirkland> there are a number of design flaws in that version of kvm that are fixed later versions
[15:15] <kirkland> as such, these are major architectural changes that cannot be fixed with backported patches
[15:15] <kirkland> this information comes directly from the upstream maintainers
[15:16] <kirkland> so i propose that we either need to compose a lengthy list of 'won't fix' and 'can't do' items for hardy's kvm
[15:16] <kirkland> (such as SMP guests)
[15:16] <kirkland> or consider a major version bump
[15:17] <kirkland> i know that at least myself and mathiaz are running kvm-84 under hardy
[15:17] <kirkland> both kernel and userspace bits, right mathiaz ?
[15:17] <kirkland> (i'm running both)
[15:17] <mathiaz> kirkland: yes
[15:17] <zul> thats fine with me but if you do consider a major version bump then you will want to get the kernel team involved and get their opinon as well
[15:17] <kirkland> so there is some basic, measurable amount of success
[15:17] <kirkland> zul: absolutely, agreed.
[15:17] <kirkland> zul: or, we need to recommend that people use kvm-source for their kvm kernel module
[15:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: that's basically all....
[15:18] <zul> the virtio stuff that hardy has already concerns me a bit though
[15:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'll compose a blog post, asking for testing of those packages
[15:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm quite hoping that some -server team members can do some early testing too
[15:18] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok - so the first step is to get more testing done from the ubuntu-virt PPA
[15:19] <sommer> kirkland: I can help test... is there a wiki page listing what to test?
[15:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: +1 on the blog post
[15:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, i plan to start the SRU procedures when Jaunty hits beta
[15:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: as sommer mentionned documentation is very important too
[15:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: right
[15:19] <kirkland> sommer: i'll put those together in the blog post
[15:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: especially on how to setup the new kvm from the ubuntu-virt PPA
[15:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay
[15:20] <mathiaz> kirkland: I don't think we can really outline what to test (ie test multiple configuration etc...)
[15:20] <mathiaz> kirkland: but focus on how to install the new version of kvm
[15:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: well, right, that's part of the reason i can't do it all myself
[15:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: there are some crazy ways people use kvm and virtualization
[15:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: that i have not considered
[15:21] <mathiaz> kirkland: agreed.
[15:21] <kirkland> mathiaz: EOF
[15:21] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to write a blog post asking for testing of kvm 84 backport to hardy with specific instructions on how-to setup kvm 84 from the ubuntu-virt PPA
[15:22] <mathiaz> kirkland: thanks for the update.
[15:22] <mathiaz> anything else to add for kvm 84 on hardy?
[15:22] <mathiaz> I'm running it and it's faster
[15:22] <sommer> how does the kvm update affect the other tools, like libvirt?
[15:23] <kirkland> sommer: unknown
[15:23] <kirkland> sommer: unknown by me, at least
[15:23] <kirkland> sommer: i'm using kvm from command line,  i think mathiaz  is using virsh (which uses libvirt)
[15:23] <ScottK> I would appreciate it if we'd be clear about is this a backport or an SRU.  They land in different repos and have different approval mechanisms.
[15:24] <mathiaz> right - I'm using libvirt to manage all of my vms
[15:24] <kirkland> ScottK: there are actually 3 approaches on the table
[15:24] <ScottK> Using the terms interchangably is a recipe for confusion (mine if  no one elses).  OK
[15:24] <sommer> kirkland: gotcha, I can help test libvirt and such
[15:24] <kirkland> ScottK: the security team also want to fix a stack of CVE's
[15:24] <mathiaz> ScottK: the goal is an SRU.
[15:24] <kirkland> ScottK: which are all fixed in kvm-84
[15:24] <kirkland> ScottK: i need to evaluate the best place to land this
[15:24] <ScottK> kirkland: With clamav major updates I've put them in -backports first for extensive testing and then later -security/-updates
[15:25] <kirkland> ScottK: my original thinking was -backports, but the more we discussed this, -updates started to make more sense
[15:25] <kirkland> ScottK: as of yesterday, the security team was asking me to fix some CVE's
[15:25] <ScottK> You might start with -backports and then migrate.  It's worked well for the clamav migrations (which are pretty intrusive).
[15:25] <kirkland> ScottK: before i spent any effort trying to isolate and cherry pick fixes, i mentioned that i'm already investigating the possibility of an sru and/or a backport
[15:25] <mathiaz> kirkland: may be using the following approach would make sense: ubuntu-virt PPA -> hardy-backports -> hardy-updates?
[15:26] <kirkland> ScottK: mathiaz: i agree with that approach
[15:26] <kirkland> ScottK: mathiaz: what about -proposed?
[15:26] <kirkland> backports -> proposed -> updates ?
[15:26] <ScottK> mathiaz: Actually if there's CVEs fixed you want to go -backports ->-security ->-updates.
[15:26] <mathiaz> kirkland: it will go to -proposed before -updates
[15:26] <kirkland> ScottK: there are cve's
[15:26] <mathiaz> kirkland: -proposed is always part of the SRU process.
[15:27] <ScottK> -security to -updates is normal.
[15:27] <kirkland> backports -> security -> proposed -> updates ?
[15:27] <ScottK> kirkland: If it goes to security it'll go straight to updates from there.
[15:27] <mathiaz> kirkland: no - backports -> security -> updates
[15:27] <kirkland> ok
[15:27] <ScottK> that's normal for all security fixes.
[15:27] <mathiaz> kirkland: or backports -> proposed -> updates
[15:27] <ScottK> mathiaz: But if you're fixing CVEs this way you can't leave -security out.
[15:28] <kirkland> ScottK: well, my goal was to affect the fewest people first, more later
[15:28] <ScottK> Having CVEs fixed in -updates that aren't fixed in -security would run counter to how things normally work.
[15:28] <jdstrand> ftr, kirkland knows this already, but if it is destined for -security, please build without -update (or -backports)
[15:29] <ScottK> You might go -proposed to -security and -updates at the same time, but IME enough people run backports that's a sufficient testing ground.
[15:29] <kirkland> jdstrand: done!  in the latest https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-virt/+archive/ppa
[15:29] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on
[15:29] <kirkland> ScottK: mathiaz: thanks for the info
[15:29] <mathiaz> kirkland: I think the next step is defined (blog post)
[15:30] <mathiaz> kirkland: we'll discuss later whether it should go trough security or proposed
[15:30] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay
[15:30] <mathiaz> kirkland: thanks for the update on this topic.
[15:30] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] likewise-open 5 in jaunty
[15:30] <mathiaz> ttx: ^^?
[15:30] <ttx> yes, an Ffe has been granted to get likewise-open5 in Jaunty (thanks, ScottK !). I just uploaded the package and it's in the NEW queue right now
[15:31] <ScottK> Ah.  Good.
[15:31] <ttx> This is a separate package because the upgrade requires you to leave and rejoin the domain, which we consider unacceptable for our current likewise 4.1 users (or at least not our choice to make).
[15:31]  * ScottK was wondering.  Did you set the bug to fix committed?
[15:31] <ttx> I was about to. uploading can be long with sucky bandwidth.
[15:31] <ttx> So Likewise Open 5 will coexist with Likewise Open 4.1 in Jaunty.
[15:31] <ttx> For the Karmic cycle we'll work with upstream to propose a seamless upgrade for all users to the latest version, and phase out 4.1
[15:32] <ttx> We'll also make sure they work with pristine krb5 1.7 libraries to avoid maintaining a separate GSSAPI implementation there.
[15:33] <ttx> so as soon as it lands, please test it, given the late upload we'll not have much time for this.
[15:33] <ttx> From my testing it works better than 4.1... but I clearly didn't test all scenarios
[15:34] <ttx> since I don't have such a wide array of AD domains to test against.
[15:34] <ttx> eof
[15:34]  * ScottK considers the Server Guide ought to answer the question "Which do I use?"
[15:34] <ttx> yes, I was planning to discuss that with sommer
[15:35] <ScottK> Excellent.
[15:35] <ttx> I also have a couple of likewise-open bugs that are fixed in likewise-open5
[15:35] <mathiaz> ttx: what happens if you have a system with 4.1 installed and you install 5?
[15:35] <ttx> it removes likewise-open (resulting in domain leave) and installs 5
[15:35] <sommer> ttx: sure just ping me
[15:36] <ttx> mathiaz: it just won't happen automatically by upgrading to Jaunty. Losing domain membership in the upgrade is not really acceptable
[15:37] <mathiaz> ttx: ok - and joining the domain is not done during postinst?
[15:37] <ttx> mathiaz: you need the windows AD admin password to join.
[15:37] <ttx> which in most use cases the local admin won't have
[15:37] <sLaeYa> is there a way to restore your server to the initial install without reinstalling it ?
[15:38] <ttx> so no, it's not done in postinst.
[15:38] <mathiaz> ttx: ok.
[15:39] <mathiaz> ttx: I'm wondering if we should print a message to explain that the machine has been removed from the domain and should be rejoined (in the use case of 4.1 -> 5 upgrade)
[15:39] <mathiaz> ttx: doing this *pseudo* upgrade would leave the system unusable and providing as many hints as possible would be good
[15:39] <ttx> There is a message printed when the domain is left (when likewise-open is removed)... but that could appear more clearly.
[15:39] <ScottK> mathiaz: It should probably go in a Debian.NEWS for the package.
[15:40] <ttx> mathiaz, ScottK: noted.
[15:41] <mathiaz> ttx: and probably in the release notes
[15:42] <ttx> mathiaz: I'm not sure. Installing likewise-open5 is up to the user, it won't influence an existing setup just by upgrading
[15:43] <[HU]gnanet> Hi, i have a problem with my production system running ubuntu hardy: I run 3 xen servers where i have one hardy guest for mysql and one hardy guest for apache-php-lighttpd-squid. The webserver farm gets its data from a ocfs2 partition. My webserver guests are dying with kernel page faults, i heard of a kernel problem with the hardy xen kernel, so i thought of changing kernels, but the Intrepid kernel has OCFS2 1.5.0 modules, the hardy 1.3.3, an
[15:43] <ttx> so I wouldn't say it's release notes material.
[15:43] <ttx> not something you need to know before/after upgrading to Jaunty.
[15:43] <mathiaz> ttx: right
[15:43] <ttx> it's something you need to know if you plan to install that particular package.
[15:43] <mathiaz> ttx: the point here is that we need to get the word out
[15:44] <ttx> so Server Guide, Debian.NEWS...
[15:44] <mathiaz> ttx: but I agree that the release notes may not be the best place
[15:44] <nealmcb> it could go in the package description
[15:44] <ScottK> nealmcb: I think that's overkill.
[15:44] <mathiaz> ttx: what about a message in likewise-open 5 preinst?
[15:44]  * ttx agrees with ScottK
[15:45] <mathiaz> ttx: you should be able to detect wether 4.1 is around and get a message to the user
[15:45] <ScottK> mathiaz: When will that get seen that NEWS wouldn't?
[15:46] <ttx> I'm not sure that would increase visibility that much. Someone installing a new package should be ready for some change anyway.
[15:46] <mathiaz> hm - ok.
[15:46] <ttx> He needs to know he has to (re)join  the domain after install... but too much warning in advance might not be necessary
[15:47] <ttx> it's the same things he needs to do after installing likewise-open in the first place
[15:47] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on. It seems that we've identified places where the warning message should be put.
[15:47] <ttx> yes.
[15:47] <mathiaz> ttx: anything else to add on the likewise-open front?
[15:47] <ttx> no.
[15:48] <mathiaz> ttx: allright then. Thanks for the update
[15:48] <mathiaz> and we're looking for testers!
[15:48] <mathiaz> let's move on
[15:48] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] screen-profiles by default
[15:49] <mathiaz> kirkland: zul ^^?
[15:49] <zul> this is just for ec2 right?
[15:49] <mathiaz> zul: yes
[15:49] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm proposing this, yes
[15:49] <mathiaz> screen-profiles by default in *EC2*
[15:49] <kirkland> mathiaz: in EC2 yes
[15:49] <zul> im against it, the goal of the ec2 is to behave exactly what we have now in the server
[15:50] <kirkland> mathiaz: ubuntu-server in ec2 is inherently console-less.  you attach, run something, perhaps detach, reattach later
[15:50] <zul> soren ehammond1 and I already discussed this and we were against it
[15:50] <kirkland> mathiaz: this lends itself very well to screen
[15:50] <zul> kirkland: i agree its nice to have its installed on the images but I dont think it should be enabled by default
[15:50] <kirkland> mathiaz: furthermore, i believe it's a great way to differentiate what are very similar servers in the ec2 space
[15:50]  * Brazen agrees with zul
[15:51] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - does running screen by default would have an impact on automated installation (via ssh)?
[15:51] <soren> kirkland: Do you feel you've overcome the concerns people have raised with screen?
[15:51] <soren> kirkland: Like, say, overlapping key bindings?
[15:52] <kirkland> soren: the outstanding issues i know about are: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/screen-profiles
[15:52] <kirkland> and
[15:52] <kirkland> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/screen
[15:53] <kirkland> soren: i don't feel that any of these are blockers for adoption
[15:53] <ttx> I tend to agree screen is especially useful in the EC2 case... but I also agree that we should mimic what's in the default server install.
[15:53] <kirkland> mathiaz: if soren, zul, and eric are opposed, i withdraw my suggestion
[15:53] <soren> I can't spot the "hijacks application's keybindings" thing in there anywhere.
[15:54] <soren> I've never filed it as a bug. Perhaps because it's behaving as advertised or because I just don't see a clean way around it. I don't know. I just haven't :)
[15:54] <kirkland> soren: that was worked around by providing an option to disable and/or customize the keybindings applied by screen-profiles
[15:54] <mathiaz> kirkland: I think it's an idea worth exploring - however I'm not sure that using screen by default on *EC2* only is good.
[15:55] <soren> kirkland: Which means more work by default.
[15:55] <mathiaz> kirkland: we should investigate if we should enable screen by default *everywhere*
[15:55] <kirkland> mathiaz: i agree with you;  i though ec2 would be a perfect place to start
[15:55] <mathiaz> kirkland: true.
[15:55] <kirkland> mathiaz: these are machines that you are *never* physically sitting in front of
[15:55] <kirkland> mathiaz: in this case, they are very unique
[15:56] <kirkland> mathiaz: "they" being hosted servers of any kind, ec2 being the present example
[15:56] <zul> kirkland: i think its a good idea overall but its too soon
[15:56] <nealmcb> could it be in the motd for ec2?
[15:57] <soren> I must say that while screen-profiles surely solves a problem, I think it will annoy a rather large group of users. Me, for instance :) It's too in-my-face. I don't really want to know that screen is there until I want to do something with it.
[15:57] <Brazen> I think screen is just as useful, and maybe more so when physically at console (with no X, such as with servers), so I don't see the relevance of ec2 being remote-only
[15:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: i suppose we can revisit this in karmic
[15:58] <mathiaz> kirkland: right.
[15:58] <mathiaz> we're running out of time
[15:58] <mathiaz> even though we have the whole channel for us for *ever*
[15:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: thanks for bringing this up - we should definetly revisit this topic for karmic
[15:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: you could also send an email on ec2-beta
[15:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: to get some feedback there
[16:00] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[16:00] <mathiaz> anything else to add?
[16:01] <sommer> I think zoopster  mentioned eucalyptus documentation?
[16:02] <zoopster> I did.
[16:02]  * erichammond wakes up, scans the meeting log, nods, and heads out to an off-site meeting.
[16:02] <zoopster> but given time...I can take it offline
[16:02] <sommer> zoopster: okay
[16:03] <simplexio> hmm what is screen-profiles ? keybindings for screen
[16:05] <mathiaz> ok - let's wrap up
[16:05] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:05] <mathiaz> so next week the TB is running at 15:00 UTC
[16:05] <mathiaz> at the same time as our currently scheduled meeting
[16:06] <mathiaz> so my proposal is to run the meeting at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-server
[16:06] <mathiaz> same as this week
[16:06] <mathiaz> (and last week)
[16:07] <mathiaz> so: same time, same place (#ubuntu-server), next week?
[16:09] <fevel> where does ubuntu server put the apache vhosts conf file please?
[16:10] <mathiaz> ok - I don't see any objections - so see you all next week, same time, same place (#ubuntu-server)
[16:10] <Brazen> fevel: /etc/apache2/sites-available/
[16:10] <mathiaz> thanks for attending and happy beta testing!
[16:10] <fevel> thanks
[16:10] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[16:11] <[HU]gnanet> Sorry for filling up the meeting with my problem, but can anyone give me a clue?
[16:11] <mathiaz> [HU]gnanet: np - you'd better post your question again
[16:11] <[HU]gnanet> ok
[16:12] <[HU]gnanet> So again:
[16:12] <[HU]gnanet> Hi, i have a problem with my production system running ubuntu hardy: I run 3 xen servers where i have one hardy guest for mysql and one hardy guest for apache-php-lighttpd-squid. The webserver farm gets its data from a ocfs2 partition. My webserver guests are dying with kernel page faults, i heard of a kernel problem with the hardy xen kernel, so i thought of changing kernels, but the Intrepid kernel has OCFS2 1.5.0 modules, the hardy 1.3.3, an
[16:12] <[HU]gnanet> kernel version on domU is /was 2.6.24-19
[16:12] <Brazen> Any reason you are using Xen instead of KVM?
[16:13] <[HU]gnanet> Brazen> the CPU doens not support KVM as we checked in the beginning
[16:13] <Brazen> I mean, I don't have a clue about your problem, but for future reference I would suggest KVM.
[16:13] <Brazen> oh
[16:13] <Brazen> in that case, I would use (and do use) qemu with kqemu.
[16:14] <[HU]gnanet> i will investigate it (qemu) for the future
[16:16] <Brazen> anyway, since no one else is piping up... page faults sounds like it is a memory problem, so it could be an issue with fighting over RAM, or a problem with swap space.
[16:17] <jdbrowne> Hello, to which extent can our company benefit from a canonical support contract provided we run a modified kernel? at this time, we run a modified kernel to use specific dvb drivers at least.
[16:24] <zoopster> jdbrowne: no one is responding - generally speaking a system running a modified kernel cannot be supported
[16:25] <shame> I have a small 2 node xen cluster, both nodes running gutsy because of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xen-3.2/+bug/209893.. I'm considering how crazy it may be to rebuild one of the nodes using hardy+kvm and rebuild each of the guests up on that node as a kvm guest until everything's up on that kvm node, then rebuilding the other xen node
[16:26] <shame> I'm assuming the scsi driver wouldn't be an issue because it seemed to only have issues with the xen kernel(s) IIRC
[16:30] <shame> I guess I'm wondering if any of you have done a xen->kvm migration and have anything to say of your experience
[16:32] <simplexio> just inrested. is kvm nowdays "the choice" for virtualization or does xen has it points still ?
[16:32] <shame> *shrug* kvm appears to be a more sane long term solution to me
[16:32] <shame> do the xen folks still recommend using 2.6.18?
[16:35] <jmedina> I still use Xen in production, there is active development, novell, suse, citrix are working in xen, redhat' s server virtualization is based on xen, not KVM, I think redhat recomends KVM for desktop virtualization
[16:36] <jmedina> is live migration supported in KVM?
[16:36] <zoopster> however redhat has publicly stated that xen is maintenance only now...all future dev will be for kvm only
[16:36] <ball> jmedina: any thoughts on Xen Vs. VirtualBox?
[16:37] <shame> jmedina, yep kvm does that.. the last time I checked it didn't do full paravirtualization so you couldn't use it on machines that lacked the special virtualization sauce in the cpu or something
[16:37] <jmedina> ball: I havent used virtualbox for server virtualization, only for desktop
[16:37] <soren> shame: VirtualBox isn't very useful for server virtualisation.
[16:38] <shame> I'm not talking about VB
[16:38] <soren> ...as you can't detach from the console while keeping the VM running.
[16:38] <[HU]gnanet> Virtualbox headless is an interesting effort ... but the resources...
[16:38] <shame> KVM
[16:38] <soren> shame: Sorry.
[16:38] <shame> :)
[16:38] <jmedina> I have not compared kvm vs xen performance, especially in I/O for disks an network
[16:38] <soren> ball: ^^ What I just said to shame about virtualbox was for you.
[16:39] <jmedina> full virtualization performance in xen is really poor, then redhat released GPL Paravirtualized drivers for full vrt enviroments
[16:39]  * ball nods
[16:39] <shame> I've been pondering it for sometime but it came back into mind this morning when one of my dom0's rebooted and the guests come up without network connectivity (still not sure wtf is up with that
[16:40] <shame> dom0 has connectivity, all the interfaces are up.. but it's like the bridge is broken or something
[16:40] <jmedina> there is GPL windows paravirtualized drivers in xen, they help increase performance for windows
[16:40] <ball> Can Ubuntu Server be dom0?
[16:40] <soren> ball: Hardy can, yes.
[16:40] <jmedina> ball: yeap, I use ubuntu-xen-server package in hardy
[16:40] <shame> ball, yes, I'm using gutsy
[16:40] <shame> jmedina, 64bit?
[16:41] <jmedina> jmedina: yeap
[16:41] <cjwatson> jdbrowne: you should ask your support contacts about that, rather than this channel
[16:41] <soren> right, sorry. "=< hardy" can do it.
[16:41] <shame> :)
[16:41] <jmedina> with AMD X2 and xeon 54xx queadcore
[16:41] <shame> there wasn't a 64bit package available for ubuntu-xen-server when we were setting these up
[16:42] <shame> it was right around the hardy release, maybe just prior to it
[16:44] <jdbrowne> cjwatson, zoopster: thx
[16:46] <simplexio> hmm how i figure out if my cpu support amd-v, i have opteron 165
[16:47] <soren> simplexio: grep svm /proc/cpuinfo
[16:47] <ball> Could I have 64-bit dom0 with 32-bit dom1?
[16:48] <simplexio> cpuinfo dosnt have anything about amd-v
[16:51] <soren> simplexio: "svm" is what you're looking for.
[16:52] <simplexio> thanks soren. it look like 165 is too old model
[16:52] <J_P> are there source list for feisty active?
[16:53] <J_P> I wnat install smartmontools, but apt-get update not find more feisty
[16:53] <Jeeves_> J_P: Better upgrade to something newer ;)
[16:54] <J_P> Jeeves_: Yes I know, but for now I need still that version
[16:54] <J_P> install smartcl
[16:55] <J_P> Don't are a old.ubuntu repos for me set in my sources.list ?
[17:05] <fevel> does anyone know how I can make external_acl_type session work every time the browser is launched?
[17:05] <fevel> better yet "squid_session"
[17:11] <kees> kirkland: for a full version bump that included security fixes, it would go  -proposed -> -security -> updates.  but the -proposed step would go through the security-proposed queue so it didn't get built against -updates.
[17:18] <jdstrand> kees: ScottK was suggesting security-proposed -> -backports -> -proposed (optionally) -> -security
[17:18] <jdstrand> kees: he posited that more testing will be done in -backports
[17:19] <jdstrand> kees: fyi only
[18:08] <kees> jdstrand: really?  more testing in -backports?  if that's true, sure.  though you could probably put it in -backports and -proposed at the same time.
[18:09]  * jdstrand nods
[18:10] <jdstrand> kees: they certainly are not mutually exclusive
[19:28] <axisys> can I have multiple up route commands or do I have to add all of them to a script and do up /path/to/script for interfaces file ?
[19:29] <infinity> You can have as many "up" commands in interfaces as you want.
[19:30] <infinity>        The following "command" options are available for every family and method.  Each of  these
[19:30] <infinity>        options  can  be  given  multiple times in a single stanza, in which case the commands are
[19:30] <infinity>        executed in the order in which they appear in the stanza.  (You can ensure a command never
[19:30] <infinity>        fails by suffixing "|| true".)
[19:30] <infinity> axisys: man 5 interfaces
[19:30] <axisys> infinity: thanks a lot
[20:23] <billyk> hi
[20:25] <billyk> does anyone know of a way to ssh into a server that's on dhcp behind a router? (and without port forwarding in the router)
[20:26] <Deeps> ssh to the router and ssh from there?
[20:26] <Deeps> ssh to another machine behind the router that has ports forwarded to it?
[20:26] <Deeps> remote desktop to another machine behind the router that has ports forwarded to it?
[20:26] <Deeps> (in both previous cases, ssh on from there)
[20:26] <billyk> no, just ssh to a machine behind a router without port forwarding
[20:26] <billyk> so it has to be initiated outbound?
[20:26] <Deeps> if you're outside of the network currently, you're out of luck
[20:27] <Deeps> if you're on the machine in question, you can use ssh's feature of remote port forwarding
[20:27] <billyk> so could I keep a ssh connection outbound to a wan static IP?
[20:27] <Deeps> ssh -R 3000:localhost:22 user@remotemachine
[20:27] <Deeps> and then remotemachine:3000 would forward to your natted machine, as long as the ssh session to remotemachine remained online
[20:28] <Deeps> well, thats not striclty true
[20:28] <Deeps> as remote port forwards bind to localhost on the remotemachine
[20:28] <billyk> hmm, i gotta draw a picture of what I'm trying to do
[20:28] <_ruben> and -g to able to connect to it from other hosts
[20:28] <_ruben> dunno if -g works for remote ones
[20:28] <Deeps> does -g work with remote port forwarding?
[20:28] <Deeps> i was under the impression that only worked with local port forwarding
[20:28] <billyk> ok, so if I initiate a connection outbound from the server, and do keepalive or heartbeat, I can always see where it's coming from
[20:29] <_ruben> could very well be, never tried tbh :)
[20:29] <Deeps>      -g      Allows remote hosts to connect to local forwarded ports.
[20:29] <billyk> can i use that connection to go inbound too? like to remotely manage the serer
[20:29] <billyk> okay
[20:29] <Deeps> i was right ;)
[20:29] <Deeps> billyk: read what i've said already, info's there
[20:29] <billyk> ah
[20:29] <Deeps> billyk: (ssh -R)
[20:30] <Deeps> natmachine: ssh -R 3000:localhost:22 user@remotemachine
[20:30] <billyk> yeah, i want to be able to drop a box on a consumer lan (with a dynamic wan IP and lan IP) and remotely manage it
[20:30] <billyk> gotcha
[20:30] <Deeps> remotemachine: ssh -g -L 3001:localhost:3000 localhost
[20:31] <Deeps> anywhereintheworld: ssh -p 3001 user@remotemachine
[20:31] <Deeps> and you get ssh'd into natmachine
[20:31] <billyk> okay
[20:31] <_ruben> or do it the proper way and setup a vpn ;)
[20:31] <Deeps> or that :)
[20:31] <billyk> well then you'd need a vpn server on the edge of the remote network
[20:32] <Deeps> openssh has built in vpn now
[20:32] <Deeps> although you need it enabled in the remote sshd
[20:32] <billyk> ok
[20:32] <Deeps> likewise do you need AllowTcpForwarding enabled in the remote sshd (it is by default)
[20:33] <billyk> okay
[20:33] <Deeps> GatewayPorts may also be of interest (man sshd_config)
[20:33] <Deeps> PermitTunnel relates to the sshd's vpn server
[20:34] <Deeps> enjoy breaking out of your corp/school firewall ;)
[20:34] <Deeps> and enjoy getting your login suspended when networks find out ;)
[20:35] <billyk> lol thats not what i'm doing
[20:35] <Deeps> haxing neighbours wifi?
[20:35] <billyk> i'm trying to build an appliance that I can sell and drop on someone's network and then be able to remotely access it
[20:35]  * Deeps trying to think of scenarios where you cant just port forward
[20:36] <Deeps> ah
[20:36] <_ruben> the ease of ssl tunnels (over port 443 for instance) are a bitch to block .. wonder if i could tweak our squid to block such stuff
[20:36] <billyk> also looked at corkscrew
[20:36] <billyk> haha
[20:36] <Deeps> _ruben: could just use timeouts
[20:36] <Deeps> kill off any active ssl sessions that have been active > Xmins
[20:36] <_ruben> Deeps: and the vpn would just reconnect .. doesnt help much i guess
[20:36] <billyk> lol
[20:37] <Deeps> if you kill off any sessions > 60 seconds, you'll piss whoever it is off enough that they'll give up after a while
[20:37] <billyk> oh, also how can I start firefox without a display manager or desktop environment?
[20:37] <Deeps> X forwarding
[20:37] <billyk> so just barebones xorg, firefox, and its dependencies
[20:37] <Deeps> google for the rest
[20:37] <Deeps> ssh -X remotehost, remotehost: /usr/local/bin/firefox &
[20:37] <billyk> yeah, I did... but i'm kinda lost about creating displays and stuff
[20:38] <billyk> no, locally
[20:38] <Deeps> indeed, if you have X forwarding enabled on the remote sshd, it'll forward the X data to your local X server over ssh
[20:38] <Deeps> but run the app on the remote machine
[20:38] <billyk> no, like run firefox on the server
[20:39] <Deeps> and view it where?
[20:39] <billyk> sooo serer with screen attached via vga cable
[20:39] <billyk> local display
[20:39] <Deeps> it'd need an X server running
[20:39] <billyk> startx?
[20:39] <billyk> or something
[20:39] <Deeps> and ideally a window manager too probably
[20:39] <Deeps> thats outside the scope of this channel though
[20:39] <_ruben> server doesnt have X installed by default .. nor any window manager
[20:39] <Deeps> #ubuntu for GUIs
[20:39] <_ruben> and installing X makes a server a desktop :)
[20:40] <hads> If you must, ratpoison has few dependancies.
[20:41] <billyk> eh, I just need firefox fullscreen with no border at all times
[20:41] <billyk> so would a window manager really be necessary?
[20:41] <hads> As was mentioned, it's not really on topic here.
[20:42] <billyk> ugh I know #ubuntu is just gonna send me back here since I'm working off a ubuntu-server base
[20:42] <billyk> and this machine has a LAMP sooo it's more  of a server
[20:43] <billyk> and it has no input devices but network
[20:43] <billyk> more server
[20:43] <Deeps> billyk: X is outside the scope of this channel, google however is your friend
[20:44] <billyk> Deeps: haha okay, I had to try :-)  Thanks!
[20:44] <hads> X with no input devices? Odd.
[20:44] <_ruben> sounds more like a kiosk than a server to me
[20:45] <alonea> ok, was told to ask my question over here.
[20:45] <alonea> ok, I have a cvs server, but wanted to have it mail out the commit changes to everyone. So I tried cvsspam, but it seems i wont be able to use sendmail, but it supports smtp, but problem again. Gmail has to have the authentication stuff, so I am lost on what to do here.
[20:45] <Deeps> sounds like a monitoring server
[20:45] <billyk> yeah, like a display
[20:45] <billyk> slideshow box basically
[20:45] <billyk> not h4x0ring a school or anything
[20:46] <_ruben> alonea: we use syncmail for that .. didnt configure it myself though, dunno any details of it
[20:46] <Deeps> in short, install xorg and an ultralightweight window manager (wm, icewm, evilwm, etc.), google will be able to give you more help on that though, and be prepared to install stuff from sources
[20:47] <alonea> _ruben: well, I might try that, but I am limited on what I can do on this server. i will take a look at it. its really the authentication that seems to be the problem, unless you know of a way to get a free smtp server that doesn't require it?
[20:47] <billyk> thanks Deeps
[20:47]  * hads prefers ratpoison
[20:48] <_ruben> alonea: install postfix on that box and configure it to relay through gmail using authentication .. perhaps ssmtp does support it aswell
[20:49] <billyk> hads: not stumpwm?
[20:50] <Deeps> billyk: it's okay, i learnt how to do all this because i needed to break out of a school + corp network ;)
[20:51] <billyk> yeah :-) yay ssh tunnels
[20:51] <alonea> _ruben: I will look at that. does it require having any type of root access to install? really all I can do is run scripts and use the stuff that is already installed system wide.
[20:52] <_ruben> alonea: postfix most likely does, ssmtp can probably be installed as a normal user without too much hassle
[20:54] <_ruben> enough for today, im out
[20:55] <alonea> thanks again
[21:10] <alonea> nope on both programs....ssmtp wants access to /usr/local
[21:39] <Administrator> Where can I find my usb stick from the terminal
[21:39] <moz> i heard it was under /media/disk or something
[21:39] <moz> but i only have cdrom and cdrom0 and they are both empty
[21:40] <ost> Hi, I am trying to setup a mail server and everytime (I have tried it a few time) I get this error: Relay access denied
[21:40] <ost> does someone know what this could be?
[21:43] <o891> Relay access denied
[21:43] <o891> Hi, I am trying to setup a postfix mailserver and I keep getting this error: Relay access denied
[21:43] <o891> does someone know what this could be?
[21:46] <o891> anybody?
[21:46] <genii> o891: It means the machine to which you are sending mail to will not deliver them to locations outside of the domain it belongs to.
[21:47] <o891> genil: thanks, do you know how i can fix it?
[21:47] <genii> o891: That has to be done on the machine to which you are sending mail
[21:48] <o891> genil: i have tried a few different ways and so I went back to the Basic Setup Guide and I still get this error
[21:48] <genii> (to allow your ip or so as a trusted source that it will relay mail for)
[21:48] <o891> genil: but I get it with anywhere I am sending mail, even if I send mail to myself I get the error
[21:49] <o891> genil: but my server is the smtp server
[21:49] <genii> o891: Likely then your ISP does not allow you to use your connection for an email server
[21:50] <hads> Huh
[21:50] <o891> genil: could it be something else?
[21:52] <Mal3ko> genii
[21:52] <o891> genii: or is it my ISP not allowing it for sure?
[21:52] <Mal3ko> [11:48:12] <genii> Mal3ko: Research indicates kernel needs recompiling with options CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G=y, CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G=y even if PAE is enabled
[21:52] <Mal3ko> http://tinypaste.com/e3cec
[21:53] <genii> o891: try telnet to port 25 of the machine which is supposed to be the one sending your mail and see if you get an smtp server response
[21:53] <hads> `sudo dpkg-reconfigure postfix` should get you most of the way to setting up a basic postfix config.
[21:54] <genii> Mal3ko: Did you get it resolved finally? (free not showing your full ram)
[21:54] <o891> genii: I get a response but after setting rcpt<EMAIL_ADDRESS>I get the error
[21:55] <genii> o891: Do you legally own the domain of 0891.net ?
[21:55] <o891> genii: yes
[21:56] <o891> genii: o891.net
[21:56] <genii> o891: Is the IP the machine sending mail is on in the dns server list for that domain?
[21:57] <genii> or does it have an MX entry, etc
[21:57] <o891> genii: yes it does: the mx entry is mail.o891.net and it points to the IP of the serve
[21:57] <o891> r
[21:58] <genii> o891: You might want to check your mailrc file or so then
[21:59] <genii> o891: hads' suggestion of postfix reconfigure may give you some of these options like mail relay etc
[22:00] <o891> genii: in the log I get the following error, maybe you have seen this before: Mar 17 22:59:27 ost postfix/smtpd[24190]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from 84-75-23-205.dclient.hispeed.ch[<IP_ADDRESS>]: 554 5.7.1<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Relay access denied<EMAIL_ADDRESS><EMAIL_ADDRESS>proto=ESMTP helo=<o891.net>
[22:01] <o891> denii, hads: I will try that now, see if it gives me any options (sorry I didnt realise before that that message was for me, thanks hads)
[22:02] <genii> o891: looks like the next box from you upstream won't relay. Likely your machine fails some test like rarp or so
[22:03] <o891> genii, hads: I just did the reconfigure and it doesnt say anything about relay
[22:03] <o891> genii: the next box being my isp? that makes sense because I can send mail localy as in diretly from root to fmaster
[22:03] <genii> o891: Yes, your ISP
[22:04] <hads> There's nothing in that log about another SMTP server.
[22:05] <o891> Would that also block my imap and pop because I had those two working today.
[22:06] <o891> hads: So what does that mean?
[22:06] <genii> o891: The problem is this: your isp has the name 84-75-23-205.dclient.hispeed.ch assigned to the ip which you are also using for o891.net
[22:08] <genii> So when you try to send email from o891.net it appears to be coming from 84-75-23-205.dclient.hispeed.ch instead
[22:09] <o891> genii: ok thats the node name right?
[22:10] <o891> genii: And that means that the SMTP Server doesnt allow it because it thinks that it is coming from the wrong server, right? Could I allow 84-75-23-205.dclient.hispeed.ch as a smtp relay in postifx?
[22:11] <genii> o891: Not sure about node name or so. But when some other box on the internet gets email supposedly from your domain and looks up the ip it gets a different name and so rejects it
[22:11] <moz> im trying to use my usb stick, i've tried "mount /dev/sda1 /mnt" but i dont really know what that does and and what to do next?
[22:12] <o891> genii: ok I see, well do you know of anyway to overcome this problem?
[22:12] <genii> moz: sda is usually the primary drive and not a one like second drive or usb or so on
[22:13] <genii> o891: Convince your isp to put in their dns your domain for that ip
[22:13] <o891> genii: so when I telnet the rcpt address the server IMMEDIATELY checks the IP of the recpt domain?
[22:13] <genii> o891: It should, yes
[22:14] <o891> genii: ok I see. Well I doubt they will do that as I don't even have a static IP address...
[22:14] <o891> genii: I suppose that that means that I can't run a smtp server on my box, right?
[22:14] <genii> o891: You could use some service like no-ip or other kind of ddns
[22:16] <o891> o891: I was looking into DynDNS the other day, so I might have to use that after-all...
[22:16] <o891> genii: well thanks for the help anyway, I will look into it!
[22:16] <moz> genii: what should i be mounting then, im a little confused, quite new to linux
[22:16] <hads> DNS is not the issue. I don't have time to work through a mail setup but it looks like you don't have your domain in mydestination.
[22:17] <o891> hads: in the postfix main.cf I have the following line: mydestination = o891.net
[22:17] <o891> hads: should that be mail.o891.net then?
[22:17] <genii> moz: If you do: sudo fdisk -l   it should list there all your hd. Looks for the one which size is the usb one. if for instance it is sdc1   then use that in the mount command instead of sda1
[22:20] <o891> hads: I just changes that line to mail.o891.net then restarted postfix and it still gives the error
[22:25] <Stargazer> Does ubuntu server run just as easily as the desktop version (in terms of wired/wireless connections) ?
[22:26] <moz> genii: i need to unmount sda1 but its the hard drive, and its not letting me unmount it because its busy, what should i do ?
[22:26] <okkare> it's command-line only by default stargazer
[22:27] <okkare> so it may not be as "easy"
[22:27] <Stargazer> I'm fair in CLI.
[22:27] <okkare> but it connects via dhcp automatically
[22:27] <Stargazer> But normally ubuntu will just connect when i plug in.
[22:27] <Stargazer> Ubuntu Desktop*
[22:28] <okkare> it should do that, yeah, i set mine to a static ip just by editing /etc/network/interfaces
[22:29] <genii> moz: sudo umount -f /mnt ; sudo mount -a
[22:29] <genii> moz: This should remount sda1 in it's proper place
[22:29] <moz> what does the -a command do ?
[22:30] <genii> moz: the -a mounts all stuff you have in /etc/fstab
[22:30] <moz> im still getting device or resource busy
[22:30] <Stargazer> Ohh, i remember installing Server edition and having trouble with seup. something about 'what type of server will this be?
[22:30] <moz> for the first command
[22:30] <Stargazer> '*
[22:31] <moz> genii: because its the harddrive i guess its busy
[22:32] <genii> moz: Because root fs is always busy and likely sda1 was that partition, the -f (force) might not work. The fast thing instead of mucking about live is just reboot it and things will mount where they are supposed to again.
[22:33] <moz> ahhh ok
[22:33] <moz> cool
[22:44] <moz> i just installed this: linux-image-2.6.27-11-server 2.6.27-11.27
[22:45] <moz> because i needed it, it has inbuilt drivers to recognize my usb wireless stick
[22:45] <moz> but now when i restarted, the system has paused at "loading hardware drivers"
[22:46] <moz> i just pressed crtl-alt-del to restart, and it presented me with the login screen, and im in, what happened there?
[22:58] <moz> its doing it each time,  when i press crtrl-alt-del something is being killed, its not working properly, why didnt installing the kernel update work? it worked when i did it on xubuntu desktop
[23:19] <cmoss1> question: i have a dell desktop computer that is running ubuntu server, but I have it hooked up to a monitor...after a little while, it will blank the screen, but will keep the led light on the back of the monitor on.  I have tried setterm, and it doesn't seem to do anything to stop sending a signal (even if it is just a blank screen)
[23:19] <moz> also, i installed the kernel using sudo dpkg -i linux-image-2.6.27-11-server 2.6.27-11.27
[23:19] <moz> was that correct


[01:07] <nasalyn> how do i make a lenovo win 8 preinst. computer run lubuntu?  failed with reboot for demo and install
[02:49] <holstein> thiefy: i would try to connect locally.. see that the server is running.. ping from each machine
[08:07] <dandyfloss> hello...
[08:26] <dandyfloss> heh is everyone idling
[14:15] <sue1> lubuntu os successfully loaded; how do i make a check of the drivers to ensure saliency in install?
[14:19] <inductiveload> sue1: do you mean check which drivers you have loaded?
[14:20] <inductiveload> lsmod will tell you which driver modules are loaded into memory
[14:20] <sue1> i have a lenovo computer that may not fully function with lubuntu
[14:21] <sue1> so i need a sound to test it with
[14:21] <sue1> at leeast
[14:22] <inductiveload> well, you could try to play a file with mplayer?
[14:24] <sue1> sound plays successfully, any leads as to where else i should test before installing?
[14:27] <inductiveload> depends on what you use it for
[14:27] <sue1> laptop workstation
[14:27] <inductiveload> i mean, what _you_ use it for
[14:28] <inductiveload> test the things you want to make sure are working
[14:37] <sue1> so much happy :D
[14:37] <sue1> it even tooks a picture
[14:37]  * sue1 selected install
[14:38] <sue1> im a happy ass burger nau
[14:38] <sue1> {
[14:38] <sue1> (PROFFERS hug)
[14:38] <sue1> (s)
[14:39] <inductiveload> :-)
[14:39] <sue1> i may not sue freenode after all
[14:39] <sue1> for religiosu discrimination et cetera
[14:40] <sue1> and other butthurt asshattery from ##windblows
[14:40] <holstein> sue1: try the offtopic channel for chat... thanks!
[15:14] <cerebrate> i didnt expect abuse on a network like freenode *sob*
[15:14] <cerebrate> hu hu lu here
[15:14] <cerebrate> lu peng
[15:16] <holstein> cerebrate: try the #lubuntu-offtopic channel.. cheers!
[15:25] <cerebrate> please elucidate location of profile photo
[15:25] <cerebrate> or how to take another one to share over irc
[15:28] <holstein> cerebrate: just open a photo taking application, such as cheese (installable if you dont have it) and post where you like (imagebin)
[15:28] <cerebrate> aye aye,
[15:31] <cerebrate> password prompt seemingly disappeared, something about updating software, alreadyhave synaptic running, couldn't i use synapic insteadt
[15:32] <holstein> cerebrate: you can only install software from one thing at a time.. if you are updating, you will need to wait.. if you are installing cheese, you will need to wait to upgrade
[15:33] <cerebrate> alritey
[15:44] <cerebrate> how do i get quick launching icons for other apps et cetera on my analog to a taskbar?
[15:44] <cerebrate> in lxde
[15:46] <holstein> cerebrate: what other apps?
[15:46] <cerebrate> xchat
[15:46] <cerebrate> xterm
[15:46] <cerebrate> emacs
[15:46] <cerebrate> cant enumerate or elucidate others
[15:46] <cerebrate> perhaps some functions like the one preinstalled on the analog
[15:48] <holstein> http://wiki.lxde.org/en/Main_Menu
[15:49] <holstein> what do i do? i use kupfer, or gnome-do, or synapse
[15:49] <cerebrate> no 'prende
[15:49] <holstein> !info kupfer
[15:49] <cerebrate> i lack answersufficient research to effectively
[15:49] <cerebrate> sorry
[15:50] <cerebrate> i have issue with my touchpadh
[15:50] <holstein> ^^ i use that instead of the menu
[15:50] <holstein> i would read the link above for information about how to add items manually to the menu
[18:53] <cerebrate> cant ask in ##linux how to disable touchpad , any leads-
[18:54] <cerebrate> disabling the driver would stop the annoying malfunctions
[18:58] <holstein> http://askubuntu.com/questions/65951/how-to-disable-touchpad
[18:59] <inductiveload> cerebrate:  synclient TouchpadOff=1
[18:59] <cerebrate> alright, functions nonannoyingly :D
[20:03] <Ville_> hi! i've been trying to install lubuntu on my new netbook. The problem is that instead of launching to gui it sends me to a commandline enviroment. there it asks login and recognises the user i made while installing. any ideas on whats wrong?
[20:04] <cerebrate> i want to extra beautify my lubuntu
[20:04] <cerebrate> knoppix style
[20:05] <holstein> cerebrate: try like this "i would like to make x look like y" or " make the panel this color" etc... as specific as you think would help the volunteers here help you
[20:05] <holstein> Ville_: try nomodeset http://useranswer.com/answer/can-i-install-ubuntulubuntu-on-a-pc-with-a-video-card-that-is-not-supported-if-i-add-nomodeset-in-using-the-live-cdusb/
[20:12] <zleap> what is the best way to upgrade nvidia drivers ?
[20:13] <holstein> zleap: i just use the upgrade manger.. or sudo apt-get upgrad and sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[20:13] <zleap> ok thanks
[20:13] <genii-around> zleap: If you have successfully installed the proprietary drivers from Jockey, it will just upgrade them as needed through DKMS
[20:13] <zleap> partrly as steam wants newer drivers
[20:13] <cerebrate> i would like dark subdued colors on my 'theme'
[20:13] <holstein> zleap: when updates are available, they will be there.. if you want something "newer", you can try the xorg ppa that steam suggests
[20:13] <cerebrate> in lxde
[20:14] <holstein> cerebrate: i would pick a darker theme
[20:14] <cerebrate> i dont see any theme selector
[20:14] <zleap> ok
[20:15] <zleap> i would rather let the system do it and not risk screwing things up
[20:15] <holstein> cerebrate: http://forum.lxde.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31312
[20:15] <Ville_> holstein: followed the insructions, problem didn't goa way
[20:15] <holstein> zleap: i have chosen to wait til i find i *need* to upgrade the drivers
[20:15] <holstein> Ville_: can you get to the live CD desktop with nomodeset?
[20:15] <zleap> yeah best way
[20:15] <zleap> i don't NEED steam at the moment
[20:16] <zleap> i guess the newer drivers will eventuallyfind their way in to the update stuff
[20:16] <zleap> after they have been screened and know to work problem free
[20:16] <holstein> zleap: depends...
[20:16] <zleap> ok
[20:16] <zleap> i guess i can just keep trying steam as it may have the new drivers already
[20:17] <holstein> the versions (like 12.04) usually are "locked" or "frozen" and recieve security updates. but drivers like that might go differently
[20:18] <zleap> well my system is working fine atm
[20:18] <zleap> i do actually need to upgrade at some ppoiint and replace linpus with newer lubuntu
[20:18] <zleap> it wants 304.22
[20:20] <zleap> ok 304 is in additional drivers but is beta I will wait
[20:22] <Ville_> Holstein: it gives error on update-grub command, cant get /cow-path
[20:22] <holstein> Ville_: boot the live CD, and try nomodeset
[20:22] <holstein> Ville_: boot the live CD, and after the bios.. tap shift til you see options at the bottom.. F6 is where "nomodeset" is located
[20:30] <Ville_> holstein: it doesn't open anything to F6, only F-button thatt opens anything is F1 for help, in help I can acces pages with the othe F-buttons so physical malfunction seems unlikely
[20:30] <holstein> Ville_: this is from boot time
[20:30] <holstein> Ville_: when you have the machine *off* and the cd in the drive.. you hit the power button
[20:31] <holstein> after the bios screens, you start tapping or holding shift.. then you'll see a menu.. at the bottom are options.. one of those options is F6.. in that F6 menu, you'll see "nomodeset".. select that and continue to "try live". *not* install
[20:32] <holstein> see if you get to the live CD using nomodeset... or any other other other options there
[20:32] <Ville_> found it
[20:33] <zleap> lok
[20:33] <zleap> linux file size 37mb  windows file size 210mb
[20:34] <zleap> the 37 seems odd whenb you look at the versiob number being 304.37 but even so one heck of a difference
[20:38] <Ville_> holstein: still launches to commandline
[20:39] <holstein> Ville_: try "startx" and see what error
[20:40] <Ville_> is it another booting option, or is do i type it to the commandline?
[20:41] <holstein> Ville_: you can type that, right there, where im asuming you are only seeing a place to type things
[20:41] <holstein> Ville_: type this... exactly.. "startx" without the quotation marks, and press the "enter" key
[20:42] <Ville_> fatal server error: no screens found
[20:43] <holstein> Ville_: what would i do? boot a knoppix live cd.. get the desktop loaded and looking the way i want.. copy the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file from there, and put it in lubuntu which i would istall using the alternate iso
[20:45] <holstein> Ville_: http://askubuntu.com/questions/58488/x-does-not-want-to-start-at-all-no-screens-have-a-usable-configuration lists an xorg.conf file that i think would work
[21:00] <Ville_> holstein: looking at the log file, I know that I'm way out of my league to find the specific problem. Your advice is to try a different distro?
[21:01] <holstein> Ville_: my advice is to try the vesa driver
[21:01] <Ville_> how do i try it?
[21:01] <holstein> Ville_: using the live knoppix CD is an easy way to get a nice xorg.conf file, similar to the one above i linked, but one that you know will work with your hardware
[21:01] <holstein> Ville_: you can use the xorg.conf i linked above
[21:04] <Ville_> how do I edit xorg.conf?
[21:05] <tagava> can i use password parameter in encfs?
[21:05] <holstein> Ville_: you just put one in place.. like the one i linked above
[21:06] <holstein> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5556278/ Ville_ , and you'll do that from the installed os that is not working
[21:06] <holstein> bbl...
[21:16] <Noskcaj> http://imgur.com/wVG3AmE
[21:19] <Noskcaj> ping to anyone who is part of the artwork team
[21:22] <zleap> does lubuntu offer the same install options as ubuntu as in install side by side and auto pull over files from a windows install ?
[21:25] <Ville_> holstein: It went from bad to  xworse, it no longer gives me even the commandline, the screen just goes black. I'm calling it for to day and trying it next
[21:26] <Ville_> time with just the basic ubuntu
[21:27] <bastarden> hello...anyone knows what is the default root password for lubuntu 12.10 live cd?
[21:28] <zleap> i didn't think there was a password on the cd
[21:28] <zleap> it just boots straight in to it
[21:28] <bastarden> i booted but when i try to su it requires a password
[21:28] <bastarden> root/lubuntu is not working
[21:29] <zleap> try no password just press enter
[21:29] <bastarden> that doesn`t work either :(
[21:29] <zleap> hmm dunno then
[21:30] <bastarden> :\
[21:34] <wxl> bastarden: afaik there is no root pw
[21:35] <bastarden> yeah i figured it out now...tried sudo ...etc and worked...thks
[21:35] <wxl> sudo passwd root works too
[21:35] <bastarden> all good now...thanks again
[21:38] <cerebrate> need to raise sound volume
[21:39] <wxl> cerebrate: alsamixer
[21:54] <Vivekananda> hey everyone. First time install of lubuntu and testing it out. Have a lot of questions . Any takers.
[21:56] <cerebrate> o/
[21:56] <holstein> http://wiki.lxde.org/en/Main_Menu
[21:56] <holstein> ^^ how to edit menu
[21:57] <Vivekananda> holstein: was that meant for me?
[21:57] <holstein> Vivekananda: yes.. that is how you edit the menu
[21:59] <Vivekananda> holstein: nope I dont want to edit the menu. I want the upper panel bar to allow me to "move" the placement of icons on it as I did in gnome .
[21:59] <holstein> Vivekananda: you edit that in the panel config
[22:00] <Vivekananda> Second I need to employ keyboard shortcuts for some of the most common things. It was easy there but here I apparently have to write xml to do it ?
[22:01] <holstein> http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/applications/464429-lxde-keyboard-shortcuts.html or exmple
[22:01] <Vivekananda> On gnome I could right click on panel bar on any icon and it showed an option of "move" along with other options. I am not getting that option here
[22:01] <holstein> Vivekananda: this is not gnome.. its different in lxde
[22:01] <holstein> in lxde, you right click and change the order
[22:02] <holstein> there is no "move" like that.. its lighter, which is a compromise
[22:02] <Vivekananda> so no placement according to my wish . Ok. I was just making sure what I would and what I would not find here.
[22:02] <Vivekananda> sure sure. Just makign sure
[22:03] <holstein> Vivekananda: i cant imagine where you would want it that you cant get it
[22:03] <holstein> you can add empyt space, expand.. remove.. customize
[22:03] <holstein> its all open.. and there are other panels, like the XFCE one that is more like gnome2 was
[22:04] <holstein> rather than just tweaking lxde to be more like XFCE, you might want to just try it
[22:04] <holstein> there is "move" options in the panel... menu editors... and keyboard shortcut GUI
[22:05] <Vivekananda> holstein: so what happenned is that Installed cairo doc and then removed the section of the panel that displays open windows ( like in windows) . When I did that all icons from the right ( viz the clock , shut down) just alingned themselves to the left. Now everytihng is clubbed together on the left ( my panel is at the top and horizontal)
[22:07] <holstein> Vivekananda: you can just remove the panel config in your /home to return to default
[22:07] <Vivekananda> oo ok so spacer helped me out
[22:07] <holstein> Vivekananda: i would make a new user and test, or try the guest account
[22:07] <Vivekananda> now everything is spaced out on the whole of the panel . That is better.
[22:10] <Vivekananda> holstein: One biggie. Suppose I install say eclipse in lubuntu with different plugins as I did in gnome. will there be lesser features in its gui ? I might have misunderstood but read somewhere that the packaging of some programs is not very conducive to lubuntu ( eg awn ) ...
[22:10] <holstein> no.. even awn will just be awn... awn needs 3d drivers in lxde or xfce or unity.. or gnome.. or whatever
[22:11] <Vivekananda> Also what do I do about the graphics troubleshooting ( I am going to try looking this up online )
[22:11] <holstein> Vivekananda: its the same
[22:11] <holstein> !ati
[22:11] <holstein> ^^ thats for *all* ubuntu's...
[22:11] <holstein> common sense might need be applied when certain applications native to the desktop environments are referenced
[22:12] <Vivekananda> I did not do any setups for gnome lucid though. not sure why the video is in slow motion now.
[22:12] <Vivekananda> I mean for the video card
[22:12] <holstein> Vivekananda: lucid is older.. that is the difference.. not gnome to LXDE..
[22:12] <holstein> Vivekananda: you are on a different kernel.. different graphics driver.. this is not an LXDE specific issue
[22:13] <Vivekananda> I have a lot of questions so keep on asking if it is okay. Pleas feel free to skip unimportant ones :)
[22:13] <holstein> Vivekananda: you can install lucid, and get it back just the way it was, and install lxde and test
[22:13] <holstein> OR, you can just try to find the proper graphics drive for your current system
[22:13] <holstein> Vivekananda: ask away.. thats what we are here for
[22:13] <Vivekananda> holstein:  I understand and hence trying to trouble shoot. I cannot so so many installs so fast coz it takes 40 mins for one install to complete :(
[22:14] <Vivekananda> I am going to address each of the issues one by one
[22:14] <Vivekananda> so first onto keybindings
[22:15] <Vivekananda> I would like to install gedit though or something better than the lightweight one here
[22:16] <holstein> Vivekananda: "better" is a matter of opinion.. just open the package manager of your choice and install gedit
[22:16] <holstein> sudo apt-get install gedit
[22:16] <holstein> to say "better than the lightweight one here" is uncessesary, since you dont know who of the volunteers here might maintain that package..
[22:18] <Vivekananda> I just meant more suited to coding and things like syntax highlight and formatting. can the leaf thingy here do that  also ?
[22:18] <holstein> i dont know.. install gedit if you want. or geany
[22:19] <Vivekananda> I dont see a sound app for headphones/ mic etc.
[22:19] <Vivekananda> I mean one that has options for them.
[22:19] <holstein> Vivekananda: you can install pulse and install pavucontrol if you want/prefer
[22:19] <holstein> otherwise, you can use alsamixer, or the GUI one
[22:20] <Vivekananda> I dont know what the difference is between pulse and also but the video I tried running ( an flv) had no sound when trying pulse so switched to alsa
[22:21] <holstein> Vivekananda: no.. lubuntu has alsa, not pulse
[22:22] <Vivekananda> you suggested pulse above though ?? Did you mean it is not there by default but I could install it ?
[22:23] <Vivekananda> One thing I want to do is add a terminal launcher to the panel on top. but it does not have that ( although it allows for creating customized launchers )
[22:25] <holstein> correct.. if you prefer, and are used to pulse, you can install it, and pavucontrol
[22:30] <cerebrate> operation already pending on potential playback of video recording dvd :/
[22:30] <cerebrate> for like 30 minutes ;-;
[22:32] <tagava> can i use password parameter in encfs?
[23:03] <holstein> !dvd
[23:03] <holstein> cerebrate: ^^
[23:08] <cerebrate> y thank u :O
[23:14] <Vivekananda> hey holstein you there
[23:20] <Vivekananda> hey there anyone here. I was trying to include the keybind alt+a to open a terminal
[23:20] <Vivekananda> it does not work
[23:20] <cerebrate> id like that too
[23:20] <cerebrate> maybe if we pool our research efforts we can achieve some sort of success viv.
[23:20] <cerebrate> but holstein will just come up with the correct approach i guess
[23:53] <Vivekananda> cerebrate: it was my bad
[23:53] <Vivekananda> sloppy , very sloppy
[23:53] <Vivekananda> it did work
[23:53] <Vivekananda> In case you were referring to me above
[23:54] <Vivekananda> anyone here


[03:56] <ojwb> is there a known issue with translation imports currently?
[03:57] <ojwb> the status thing on identica reported an issue then said it was resolved 3 days ago
[03:59] <ojwb> https://translations.launchpad.net/survex/trunk/+imports shows status "Imported" (and has done for 24 hours or so) but they aren't showing up at https://translations.launchpad.net/survex/trunk/+pots/survex
[04:00] <ojwb> hmm, though clicking through again, I notice https://translations.launchpad.net/survex/trunk/+templates says updated 2012-01-07
[04:01] <ojwb> oh, is "Last Edited" on https://translations.launchpad.net/survex/trunk/+pots/survex the date of the last edit via the launchpad translation web ui?
[07:34] <kalkin_> I'm having trouble with a source package, where my install script seems unable to put binaries into /usr/bin (https://launchpadlibrarian.net/89333622/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-amd64.rust_0.09-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz)
[07:35] <kalkin_> I see the same problem in pbuilder
[07:35] <kalkin_> Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?
[07:45] <ojwb> kalkin_: this probably isn't the right place to ask for packaging help, but you don't install to /usr/bin, but rather to a staging directory (typically debian/tmp/usr/bin or with the binary package name instead of tmp)
[07:46] <kalkin_> where is a better place to ask?
[07:47] <kalkin_> i understand that the package is, either locally with pbuilder, or on a server somewhere after uploading as a PPA, using a sandbox to build
[07:48] <kalkin_> Should i change my `make install` to put things in some staging directory?
[07:55] <ojwb> kalkin_: yeah - if the build system supports DESTDIR, just set that
[07:57] <kalkin_> i'll look into it
[07:58] <ojwb> kalkin_: #ubuntu-packaging is probably most appropriate (or #debian-mentors if it's for debian)
[07:58] <kalkin_> it seems like dh_auto_install is already using something there "dh_auto_install: make -j1 install DESTDIR=/tmp/buildd/rust-0.09/debian/rust returned exit code 2"
[07:58] <kalkin_> thanks for the help!
[21:37] <sjamaan> Does anyone know how I can see raw files without knowing their internal ID?  https://bugs.launchpad.net/loggerhead/+bug/605775 says it should be possible