[00:00] <Silver_Fox_> Shall we begin?
[00:00] <Joeb454> sounds good to me Silver_Fox_
[00:00] <Silver_Fox_> Okay.
[00:00] <starcraftman> I haz arrived, and perfectly on time!
[00:00] <Silver_Fox_> #startmeeting
[00:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is Silver_Fox_.
[00:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[00:01] <Silver_Fox_> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
[00:01] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
[00:01] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC]Team channels, support in main channel or -help
[00:01] <MootBot> New Topic: Team channels, support in main channel or -help
[00:01] <Silver_Fox_> Go bodhi_zazen
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> Thanks
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> I think it has been decided to move support to -help as much a possible
[00:02] <bodhi_zazen> -help is much more active these days - go team
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> and feel free to ping me if assistance is needed
[00:03] <IngForigua> Hi today is the beginners team meeting?
[00:03] <Silver_Fox_> Yes IngForigua
[00:03] <bodhi_zazen> short support questions are "OK" from time to time in the main channel
[00:03] <starcraftman> Oh ok, so we not changing it to the main then? cabaret just turning into an alt hangout then?
[00:03] <IngForigua> there are beginners team in spanish?
[00:04] <bodhi_zazen> I would prefer to keep -beginners to team business and more "formal" and move as much team banter as possible to ##cabaret
[00:04] <Joeb454> bodhi_zazen: but then what purpose does -beginners serve?
[00:04] <bodhi_zazen> doing so has reduced the number of complaints I have recieved drastically
[00:05] <Silver_Fox_> Is that not -beginners not banter channel anymore?
[00:05] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: hmmmm, alright, so cabaret for really random stuff and main more "proper". I got ya.
[00:05] <bodhi_zazen> although be aware ##cabaret is not an official ubuntu channel and so you may see some fairly off topic banter / links
[00:05] <bodhi_zazen> yes please starcraftman
[00:05] <bodhi_zazen> Please *try* to banter in ##cabaret
[00:06] <Silver_Fox_> Okay,  shall we move onto the vote?
[00:06] <pleia2> is ##cabaret subject to the CoC?
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> I do not personally mind banter in the main channel, but at the team has grown banter seems to be causing issues
[00:06] <bodhi_zazen> Not that I know of pleia2
[00:07] <pleia2> ok, I won't be joining then
[00:07] <lukjadOO7> So what is the vote exactly?
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> my understanding is ## channels are "unofficial"
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> 2 votes if you want
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> 1 - support to -help
[00:07] <Silver_Fox_> Okay.
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> and
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> 2 - banter to ##cabaret
[00:07] <lukjadOO7> bodhi_zazen: While I am in ##cabaret, I don't feel as comfortable chatting there.
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> LOL
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> why lukjadOO7 ?
[00:08] <canthus13> Why not adopt an o4o policy similar to -offtopic?
[00:08] <canthus13> rather than spreading out over more channels.
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> canthus13: what is that ? o4o policy ?
[00:08] <lukjadOO7> bodhi_zazen: Because it's not with the CoC, so I feel somewhat uncertain as to what goes.
[00:08] <maco> !o4o > bodhi_zazen
[00:08] <paultag> sorry I'm late :)
[00:08] <canthus13> o4o is basically a policy that outlines topics where people should tread lightly.
[00:09] <canthus13> maco: thanks.
[00:09]  * canthus13 didn't realize ubottu was in here. :)
[00:09] <dvz-> why not again, cut out help:  ubuntu-beginners  == support channel  and ubuntu-team == team banter and or team business?
[00:09] <jgoguen> .msg ubottu !o4o
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> mainly for two reasons
[00:09] <nigel_nb> dvz-: +1
[00:09] <dvz-> leaves us still at 2 channels both of which can be governed by coc
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> #1 is that policy is really not working in the main channel
[00:09] <jgoguen> dvz-: I thought that was proposed and shot down once?
[00:10] <dvz-> jgoguen: this whole issue has been proposed and shot down many times.
[00:10] <dvz-> more than once and by more than one person
[00:10] <lukjadOO7> bodhi_zazen: Another thing is that I don't care to spread out chat on many different channels.
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> We (I) get too many complaints when the team banters in the main channel
[00:10] <paultag> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:10] <maco> is that because it's banter or because of the specific topic of the banter?
[00:10] <Silver_Fox_> Sorry but this is getting on.  I propose that this be discussed some more and we move onto another topic.
[00:11] <Silver_Fox_> We have a full agenda
[00:11] <starcraftman> I think we can just move to up down vote on bodhi's suggestions.
[00:11] <lukjadOO7> Okay, can we vote about the moving help to -help?:
[00:11] <lukjadOO7> Silver_Fox_: ^
[00:11] <paultag> maco, we get off topic in #ubuntu-beginners, and most people expect help to be there.
[00:11] <maco> paultag: ah ok
[00:11] <bodhi_zazen> The team, in general, seems unable to tolerate o4o topics and there has been a real breakdown in tolerance in the main channel, IMO
[00:11] <paultag> maco, where our real help channel is #ubuntu-beginners-help :)
[00:11] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: and we get too many comlaints when people help others in the main channel....other than these meetings, what team business is of so great of time investment that it deems we need a new channel for offtopic?
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> We should move these meeting to the main channel, IMO
[00:12] <lukjadOO7> dvz-: I agree, but some people are upset about it.
[00:12] <nhandler> persia: I know I'm a bit late, but freenode guidelines would still apply, but that is about it (re ##cabaret)
[00:12] <nhandler> err pleia2
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> dvz-: it is more that I am tired of the complaints
[00:12] <dvz-> lukjadOO7: if we limited the team channel to strictly business, then it would remain idle a majority of the time then.
[00:12] <starcraftman> So bodhi's proposal to summarize as I get it: Help -> long answer support and beginners  -> proper team business/short support and cabaret > banter really off topic, unCoC.
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> either the team needs to be more tolerant and polite or move the banter
[00:12] <lukjadOO7> dvz-: Yes, I know.
[00:13] <starcraftman> Can we have 1 vote on all that.
[00:13] <pleia2> nhandler: I knew the general rules for ## channels, I was just hoping that even though unofficial, a banter channel promoted by an official Ubuntu project would also be held to the CoC, it makes me very uncomfortable that it doesn't
[00:13] <nigel_nb> we'll split the votes into 3?
[00:13] <lukjadOO7> dvz-: I'm not for it, but I understand bodhi_zazen's point of view. I'm going to +0 it
[00:13] <lukjadOO7> dvz-: Actualy I'll -0 it
[00:13] <pleia2> (which is why I won't go there)
[00:13] <nhandler> pleia2: It isn't in the Ubuntu name space either, so not even the Ubuntu IRC Guidelines would really apply.
[00:13] <lukjadOO7> pleia2: +1
[00:14] <lukjadOO7> I would suggest that perhaps a code of conduct be created for ##cabaret ?
[00:14] <pleia2> nhandler: just because they aren't required to apply, doesn't mean we can't say they do :)
[00:14] <dvz-> i guess I'm not completely aware of what the "offtopic" banter that seems to offend people is
[00:14] <lukjadOO7> It need not be too strict, but something to keep people feel safe
[00:14] <drs305> lukjadOO7: It's not "our" channel.
[00:14] <pleia2> lukjadOO7: is the CoC too strict?
[00:15] <lukjadOO7> pleia2: I don't think so.
[00:15] <pleia2> nor do I
[00:15] <lukjadOO7> pleia2: I'm just saying that we create a new CoC for the channel
[00:15] <nhandler> pleia2: I personally do not have any reason with not holding people to the CoC in there
[00:16] <nhandler> lukjadOO7: Is there any part of the Ubuntu CoC that people do not believe should apply there?
[00:16] <nigel_nb> lukjadOO7: can we have CoC apply to the channel?
[00:16] <PabloRubianes> sorry i am late
[00:16] <lukjadOO7> I would personally like to see the channel be under the CoC.
[00:16] <nigel_nb> +1 lukjadOO7
[00:16] <lukjadOO7> nigel_nb: I don't see why not.
[00:16] <starcraftman> PabloRubianes: s'okay we haven't really gotten anywhere.
[00:16] <nhandler> We already hold people to the CoC in -beginners
[00:16] <maco> +1 lukjadOO7
[00:16]  * pleia2 nods
[00:16]  * starcraftman puts on music and waits for a bit of agreement.
[00:16] <duanedesign> if we put cabareet under the CoC then what makes it different than #ubuntu-beginners
[00:16] <Silver_Fox_> Okay,  Any more comments or questions.  I would like to put up a vote that this topic be discussed at a later date.
[00:17] <lukjadOO7> If the channel can't use the CoC for legal reasons or wordings, I suggest we copy/paste it
[00:17] <jgoguen> duanedesign: The fact that ##cabaret isn't somewhere users come expecting some help?
[00:17] <bodhi_zazen> I think we need to at least vote on moving support to -help
[00:17] <lukjadOO7> And name it the Code of Cabaret.
[00:17] <starcraftman> Silver_Fox_: make sure vote topic clear. We have discussed a few alternate suggestions.
[00:17] <drs305> How are we setting guidelines for a channel not ours - open to anyone who happens along?
[00:17] <canthus13> rename #ubuntu-beginners to #ubuntu-beginners-team and keep -help the same.
[00:17] <paultag> better yet:
[00:18] <lukjadOO7> drs305: It was created by bodhi_zazen I believe
[00:18] <paultag> Rename #ubuntu-beginners-help to #ubuntu-beginners, and create #ubuntu-beginners-team, or -cafe
[00:18] <jgoguen> drs305: The same as other channels set guidelines that all users entering are expected to adhere to
[00:18] <nigel_nb> paultag: +1 (that would do)
[00:18] <paultag> It would clear up a _lot_ of confusion
[00:18] <paultag> Silver_Fox_, and I suggested this before
[00:18] <dvz-> +1 paultag
[00:18] <nigel_nb> paultag's suggestion would clear a lot of confusion
[00:18] <nigel_nb> and it would help keep a team channel for offtopic *under the CoC*
[00:18] <bodhi_zazen> paultag: easier to move -help to -team
[00:19] <starcraftman> paultag: then all long support questions and official business in the team channel and cafe for CoC talk. Right?
[00:19] <nigel_nb> either way, the idea is the same
[00:19] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, yeah, but people assume #ubuntu-beginners, is for beginners, and -cafe does not look like a support channel
[00:19] <nigel_nb> exactly
[00:19] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, we get a lot of incoming support questions in -beginners that we have to tell to /join #ubuntu-beginners-help
[00:19] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: last meeting or so ago, someone else (paul or silver) offered to redo the access permissions on the channels, i believe
[00:20] <paultag> I'll do it
[00:20] <paultag> I don't mind tedious work
[00:20] <nigel_nb> Silver_Fox_: is it possible to vote on paultag's suggestion?
[00:20] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: should we choose that route... i remember the one complaint when i propsed the idea initially was "too much of a hassle setting permissions"
[00:20] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]  Make off topic channel #ubuntu-beginners-cafe
[00:20] <MootBot> Please vote on:   Make off topic channel #ubuntu-beginners-cafe.
[00:20] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:20] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:20] <jgoguen> +1
[00:20] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:20] <dvz-> +1
[00:20] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:20] <bodhi_zazen> Why do we need 4 channels -beginner -team -help and -cafe ?
[00:20] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 3 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:20] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 4 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:20] <pleia2> +1
[00:20] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:20] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, we would get rid of team and help
[00:21] <Rocket2DMn> +0
[00:21] <jgoguen> bodhi_zazen: As I see it, -help is redirected to -beginners
[00:21] <MootBot> Abstention received from Rocket2DMn. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:21] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, just -beginners, and -beginners-cafe
[00:21] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:21] <starcraftman> +0
[00:21] <drs305> +0
[00:21] <MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 5 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:21] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:21] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 6 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:21] <lukjadOO7> This is somewhat confusing.
[00:21] <Joeb454> +1
[00:21] <MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 7 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:21] <PabloRubianes> +1
[00:21] <MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 8 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:21] <IngForigua> +1
[00:21] <nhandler> +0
[00:21] <MootBot> +1 received from IngForigua. 9 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:21] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 9 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:21] <lukjadOO7> +0
[00:21] <MootBot> Abstention received from lukjadOO7. 9 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:21] <Silver_Fox_> Any more votes?
[00:21] <bodhi_zazen> and I agree with pleia2 , I do not want -cafe to be under the CoC, at least I do not want off topic o4o banter associated with this team =)
[00:21] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: we would ultimately  be switching -help to -beginners .... -beginners to -beginners-team  ... and -beginners-cafe to banter..then dropping -help i believe is the proposed idea
[00:21] <bodhi_zazen> -1
[00:21] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 9 for, 1 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:21] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:21] <MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 1 against. 5 abstained. Total: 8
[00:22] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]
[00:22] <MootBot> AGREED received:
[00:22] <Silver_Fox_> whoops ;)
[00:22] <lukjadOO7> Uhhh
[00:22] <bodhi_zazen> dvz-: why not leave -beginners and simply move -help to -team
[00:22] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED] Make off topic channel #ubuntu-beginners-cafe
[00:22] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Make off topic channel #ubuntu-beginners-cafe
[00:22] <nhandler> I would be glad to help with the actual channel management to handle this stuff
[00:22] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen:  clears up confusion for NON-team members
[00:22] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]  Move -help to #ubuntu-beginners
[00:22] <MootBot> Please vote on:   Move -help to #ubuntu-beginners.
[00:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:23] <paultag> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:23] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:23] <pleia2> +1
[00:23] <nhandler> +0
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:23] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:23] <dvz-> ubuntu-beginners  (non-members view this as help for beginners0, not a team channel)
[00:23] <paultag> nhandler, roger :)
[00:23] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:23] <PabloRubianes> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:23] <drs305> -1
[00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from drs305. 5 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:23] <lukjadOO7> +0
[00:23] <MootBot> Abstention received from lukjadOO7. 5 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:23] <dvz-> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 6 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:23] <Joeb454> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 7 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:23] <Rocket2DMn> -1
[00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from Rocket2DMn. 7 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:23] <swoody> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:23] <duanedesign> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 9 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:23] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 10 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:23] <jgoguen> +1
[00:23] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 11 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:23] <Silver_Fox_> Any more votes?
[00:23] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:23] <MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 2 against. 2 abstained. Total: 9
[00:23] <bodhi_zazen> I can see two channels -beginners and -beginners-team
[00:24] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]   Move -help to #ubuntu-beginners.
[00:24] <MootBot> AGREED received:    Move -help to #ubuntu-beginners.
[00:24] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: right...and for the offtopic...i don't care if it's -cafe or if it's cabaret..or whatever else we decide
[00:24] <dvz-> +1
[00:24] <PabloRubianes> cabaret is no longer use?
[00:24] <bodhi_zazen> we need to discuss off topic / banter
[00:24] <bodhi_zazen> we either need to be more tolerant as a team
[00:24] <lukjadOO7> Are we voting on the policy on #ubuntu-beginners-cafe ?
[00:25]  * bodhi_zazen points out the vast majority of complaints come from team members
[00:25] <bodhi_zazen> or move the banter out of #beginners space
[00:25] <drs305> Are the complaints being aired during the discussions? I haven't seen them.
[00:26] <bodhi_zazen> drs305: no, the complaints come to me in PM, and then I try to resolve the issues
[00:26] <jgoguen> I don't necessarily think the lack of public complaints should be taken as any implication that there isn't a problem
[00:26] <bodhi_zazen> +1 jgoguen
[00:26] <dvz-> good point drs305 ...i haven't been around much due to family issues - but if someone has a complaint, i think that they should have the courtesy to bring it up to the person that offended them either in PM or chat before going to the team lead immediately
[00:26] <nigel_nb> bodhi_zazen: can I suggest that if someone has any issue with another person, PM directly
[00:26] <drs305> I believe courtesy includes asking for a cessation of the behavior at the time rather than a PM to bodhi.
[00:26] <paultag> nigel_nb, but sometimes it's hard
[00:26] <lukjadOO7> Maybe we could wait until the next meeting to actually work on the cafe and offtopic?
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> seriously, the banter is problematic and I do not see moving to another official ubuntu channel or a channel associated with the BT as a solution
[00:27] <jgoguen> An assumption like that forces people to speak out who may not be comfortable doing so, meaning they'll not speak out and possibly leave thinking we're a bunch of hooligans
[00:27] <maco> what if the complaint is about the team lead?
[00:27] <dvz-> it's a two way street...if you're offended by someone, we can't read your minds, talk to that person about it...it may be as simple as a pm and talking to them about it.
[00:27] <lukjadOO7> Or until the end?
[00:27] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]  Move non COC compliant banter to ##cabaret
[00:27] <MootBot> Please vote on:   Move non COC compliant banter to ##cabaret.
[00:27] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:27] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:27] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:27] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:27] <nhandler> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:27] <jgoguen> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:27] <swoody> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:27] <paultag> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:27] <PabloRubianes> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:27] <nigel_nb> +0
[00:27] <dvz-> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from nigel_nb. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:27] <starcraftman> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 7 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:27] <lukjadOO7> -0
[00:27] <paultag> nigel_nb, like take for example, me. If I do something that offends, most people have met me since the beginning, and if I do something dumb, it's hard to confront a more senior member, rather then a neutral lead like bodhi_zazen
[00:27] <Joeb454> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from Joeb454. 7 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:27] <lukjadOO7> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from lukjadOO7. 7 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:27] <duanedesign> +1
[00:27] <MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 8 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:27] <drs305> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:27] <Rocket2DMn> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from Rocket2DMn. 8 for, 0 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:27] <pleia2> +0
[00:27] <MootBot> Abstention received from pleia2. 8 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:27] <jgoguen> maco: There's a council mailing list that's private...admittedly the team lead is on that list, but there's enough other people on it that it should be able to be fairly dealt with
[00:27] <dvz-> paultag: i have no qualms confronting you :-D
[00:28] <nigel_nb> paultag: suggestion
[00:28] <IngForigua> +1
[00:28] <MootBot> +1 received from IngForigua. 9 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:28] <paultag> dvz-, I know that :)
[00:28] <paultag> nigel_nb, yo
[00:28] <pleia2> (I don't think we should be promoting an out of namespace channel that doesn't adhere to ubuntu community standards)
[00:28] <nigel_nb> can we have a formal process for this?
[00:28] <Silver_Fox_> Any more votes?
[00:28] <lukjadOO7> pleia2:
[00:28] <maco> +1 pleia2
[00:28] <juju2143> +1
[00:28] <MootBot> +1 received from maco. 10 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 10
[00:28] <MootBot> +1 received from juju2143. 11 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 11
[00:28] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: we are not promoting any such thing
[00:28] <maco> oh bah. ignore mine. im not a votable person
[00:28] <nhandler> pleia2: Nobody said anything about acitvely promoting it afaik
[00:28] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:28] <MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 0 against. 8 abstained. Total: 11
[00:28] <nigel_nb> paultag: in case you are offended, mail the person with a copy to the bt council
[00:28] <dvz-> pleia2: i think this is merely a,  "if it doesn't relate to the team, take it elsewhere"
[00:28] <nigel_nb> so there can be a resolution and somone else gets to know about it and mediate
[00:28] <paultag> nigel_nb, yeah, but again, if they are on the council, that can be hard
[00:29] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]Move non COC compliant banter to ##cabaret.
[00:29] <MootBot> AGREED received: Move non COC compliant banter to ##cabaret.
[00:29] <pleia2> fair enough
[00:29] <nigel_nb> paultag: we cud make a friendly approach to it
[00:29] <nigel_nb> paultag: something for the stalker fG?
[00:29] <paultag> nigel_nb, perhaps :)
[00:29] <dvz-> we have a stalker fg?
[00:29] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE] -help to forward to #ubuntu-beginners
[00:29] <MootBot> Please vote on:  -help to forward to #ubuntu-beginners.
[00:29] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:29] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:29] <dvz-> why wasn't i told about this?
[00:29] <paultag> dvz-, that group may or may not exist
[00:29] <paultag> +1
[00:29] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:29] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:29] <nhandler> +0
[00:29] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:29] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:29] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:29] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:29] <jgoguen> +1
[00:29] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:29] <duanedesign> +1
[00:29] <MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:29] <dvz-> +1
[00:29] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:29] <Joeb454> +1
[00:30] <MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:30] <bodhi_zazen> +0
[00:30] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:30] <swoody> +1
[00:30] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:30] <Rocket2DMn> +0
[00:30] <MootBot> Abstention received from Rocket2DMn. 8 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:30] <lukjadOO7> +1
[00:30] <MootBot> +1 received from lukjadOO7. 9 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:30] <lukjadOO7> +0
[00:30] <pleia2> +1
[00:30] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 10 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 10
[00:30] <starcraftman> +1
[00:30] <MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 11 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 11
[00:30] <Silver_Fox_> Any more votes?
[00:30] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:30] <MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 11
[00:30] <drs305> -1
[00:31] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]-help to forward to #ubuntu-beginners
[00:31] <MootBot> AGREED received: -help to forward to #ubuntu-beginners
[00:31] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC]BT Roadmap
[00:31] <MootBot> New Topic: BT Roadmap
[00:31] <Silver_Fox_> Go bodhi_zazen
[00:31] <bodhi_zazen> Anyone have any comments on the roadmap ?
[00:31] <duanedesign> o/
[00:31] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Do you have a link to the draft of it handy?
[00:31] <nigel_nb> bodhi_zazen: link please?
[00:32] <lukjadOO7> bodhi_zazen: Roadmap link?
[00:32] <bodhi_zazen> I put the item on the agenda, but was hoping others were taking the lead on this
[00:32] <duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/duanedesign/sandbox
[00:32] <duanedesign> ^^^^
[00:32] <bodhi_zazen> thanks duanedesign
[00:32] <duanedesign> I have a working draft in my sanbox
[00:32] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: It has been on for a while (I think I initially added it a few months ago)
[00:32] <Silver_Fox_> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/duanedesign/sandbox
[00:32] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/duanedesign/sandbox
[00:32] <nigel_nb> Suggestion: Can we have something like the bugsquad's 5-a-day?
[00:32] <duanedesign> I think there are some good ideas there
[00:32] <lukjadOO7> Looks find to me
[00:33] <nigel_nb> for answers, bugs, and forum help
[00:33] <jgoguen> nigel_nb: Sounds like a good idea!
[00:33] <bodhi_zazen> 6 weeks I think nhandler
[00:33] <Silver_Fox_> Okay,  if nothing to vote I on I am going to move onto the next topic.
[00:33] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Hmm...Feels like longer
[00:33] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC]Remove the Stalkers FG from BT Structure
[00:33] <MootBot> New Topic: Remove the Stalkers FG from BT Structure
[00:33] <starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: Oh right this thing, my only comment is not exactly sure I'm a fan of the wiki one. I'm planning a doc meeting soon so we might discuss such a target.
[00:33] <paultag> oh WTF
[00:33] <paultag> -1
[00:34] <paultag> the Stalker FG does good work :)
[00:34] <Silver_Fox_> Hmm,  ibuclaw is not here.
[00:34] <nigel_nb> Silver_Fox_: can we hold off on this one?
[00:34] <lukjadOO7> I'm against that
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> ibuclaw asked me to discuss this topic
[00:34] <paultag> I'm in the stalking FG, I can address this :)
[00:34] <Silver_Fox_> Go bodhi_zazen then =]
[00:34] <nigel_nb> Silver_Fox_: we could potentially add more duties to stalker FG
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> basically, the purpose of the stalker group is quality control on the forms
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think the stalkers group has bee active
[00:34] <bodhi_zazen> or perhaps it needs a new lead ?
[00:34] <Joeb454> I'm off, not feeling great. Sorry guys
[00:35] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, who is lead now? sdennie?
[00:35] <nhandler> Bye Joeb454
[00:35] <lukjadOO7> Later Joeb454
[00:35] <Silver_Fox_> Bye Joeb454 .
[00:35] <nigel_nb> bodhi_zazen: can we add quality control on IRC to stalker FG?
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> the idea is that all team members should participate in quality control
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> we could
[00:35] <nigel_nb> bodhi_zazen: addressing complaints and issues with other members..
[00:35] <lukjadOO7> bodhi_zazen: I suggest we make it have a better and broader focus
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> I think we either need to
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> 1. Find a lead for the stalkers, and revitalize it ...
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> or
[00:35] <paultag> OK, speaking on behalf:
[00:35] <bodhi_zazen> 2. Eliminate it
[00:36] <nigel_nb> I can help lead it (if u're okay with me leading that is)
[00:36] <nhandler> I think having the entire team participate in quality control sounds like a better solution for the long run
[00:36] <jgoguen> nigel_nb: Quality control on IRC, IIRC, is the domain of the IRC FG as part of their mandate of help on IRC
[00:36] <paultag> All of the members of the FG are regularly on IRC, LP and UF, and when we come across and BT member we take a look at it.
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> nigel_nb: I think moving the banter to ##cabaret is going to resolve 99.9 % of the current complaints
[00:36] <paultag> I always ( _always_ ) watch IRC for quality of UBT members' help, and I think that is part of the stalking FG
[00:36] <jgoguen> Having said that, I agree with nhandler
[00:36] <nigel_nb> agree, but as paultag said ealier, it would be nice to have a small group to deal with it
[00:36] <bodhi_zazen> removing a few problematic users from the channel has been effective on the rest of the complaints
[00:37] <nhandler> paultag: I think most of us pay attention to the work of fellow BT members throughout the community
[00:37] <paultag> nhandler, +1
[00:37] <bodhi_zazen> If we are going to expand the focus , what irc channels ?
[00:37] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it would have to be #ubuntu-beginners, and #ubuntu
[00:37] <bodhi_zazen> #ubuntu ? -beginners ? our channels only ?
[00:37] <jgoguen> bodhi_zazen: At least the #ubuntu-beginners-* channels, and also if BT members are helping in #ubuntu
[00:37] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, well, the UBT members are UBT members through Ubuntu, we should be making sure our good name is intact ;)
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> Sounds good to me
[00:38] <paultag> +1 jgoguen
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> who would like to lead ?
[00:38] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: This is why I feel it would be better to just get rid of the formal group and have it as a more informal quality control process
[00:38] <lukjadOO7> jgoguen: +2
[00:38] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]  Remove Stalker FG
[00:38] <MootBot> Please vote on:   Remove Stalker FG.
[00:38] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:38] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:38] <paultag> I am in charge to two teams. I would not take on another
[00:38] <nhandler> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:38] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:38] <lukjadOO7> -1
[00:38] <MootBot> -1 received from lukjadOO7. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:38] <paultag> -1
[00:38] <MootBot> -1 received from paultag. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:38] <nigel_nb> -1
[00:38] <MootBot> -1 received from nigel_nb. 2 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:38] <jgoguen> nhandler: Would you have the council handle quality problems then?
[00:38] <bodhi_zazen> +0
[00:38] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:38] <PabloRubianes> -1
[00:38] <MootBot> -1 received from PabloRubianes. 2 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:38] <drs305> 0
[00:38] <nigel_nb> I can help whoever is leading
[00:38] <drs305> +0
[00:38] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 2 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:38] <nhandler> jgoguen: I see no issue with that
[00:38] <lukjadOO7> jgoguen: The higher level ones that can't be handled
[00:38] <MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 2 for, 5 against, 2 have abstained. Count is now -3
[00:39] <jgoguen> +1
[00:39] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 3 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:39] <bodhi_zazen> If we keep the team, we need a lead
[00:39] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, +1
[00:39] <dvz-> +0
[00:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from dvz-. 3 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:39] <lukjadOO7> jgoguen: You voted wrong
[00:39] <Silver_Fox_> Any more votes?
[00:39] <jgoguen> >_<
[00:39] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:39] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 5 against. 3 abstained. Total: -2
[00:39] <jgoguen> lukjadOO7: Not like it changed the result :)
[00:39] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED] Keep stalker FG
[00:39] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Keep stalker FG
[00:39] <paultag> Now, Leads:
[00:39] <paultag> Who wants to lead the team?
[00:39] <lukjadOO7> jgoguen: Well, yeah. But closer
[00:40]  * jgoguen notes to extra-careful read the topic twice next time
[00:40] <nhandler> I think we should hold off on choosing a lead until at least the next meeting
[00:40] <paultag> fair enough nhandler
[00:40] <nigel_nb> paultag: If u can take the lead, I'll help you with everything
[00:40] <nhandler> That way, members who are not present now have a chance to put their name forward
[00:40] <nigel_nb> nhandler: +1
[00:40] <paultag> nigel_nb, I won't take lead, I have two FGs already ;)
[00:40] <paultag> +1 nhandler
[00:40] <paultag> nigel_nb, put yourself in there :)
[00:40] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE] Decided new leads at next meeting
[00:40] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Decided new leads at next meeting.
[00:40] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:40] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:40] <cjohnston> make a page for people to nominate themselves?
[00:40] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:40] <nhandler> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:40] <paultag> +1
[00:40] <jgoguen> +
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:40] <pleia2> +1
[00:40] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:40] <jgoguen> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:40] <PabloRubianes> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:40] <swoody> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:40] <starcraftman> +1
[00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:41] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:41] <MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:41] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 10 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
[00:41] <dvz-> +1
[00:41] <lukjadOO7> +1
[00:41] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 11 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 11
[00:41] <MootBot> +1 received from lukjadOO7. 12 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 12
[00:41] <drs305> +1
[00:41] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 13 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 13
[00:41] <Silver_Fox_> Any more votes?
[00:41] <jgoguen> lukjadOO7: Although realistically, if everyone does quality control that's a major part of the stalker FG suddenly handled by everyone, unless we say Stalkers is like Forums and everyone is implicitly part of it
[00:41]  * starcraftman is munching food why he's a bit quiet.
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> +0
[00:41] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 13 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 13
[00:41] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:41] <MootBot> Final result is 13 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 13
[00:41]  * jgoguen takes starcraftman's food
[00:41] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED] Decide new leads at next meeting
[00:41] <lukjadOO7> jgoguen: Not everyone is part of the stalkers
[00:41] <duanedesign> starcraftman: mmm i am so hungry
[00:41] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Decide new leads at next meeting
[00:41] <paultag> Cool. We should start a Mailing lost on this
[00:41] <paultag> list *
[00:41] <jgoguen> lukjadOO7: That's my point :)
[00:41] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC]Use Launchpad as official member list for FGs and remove wiki lists
[00:41] <MootBot> New Topic: Use Launchpad as official member list for FGs and remove wiki lists
[00:41] <bodhi_zazen> mailing lost, LMAO
[00:41] <nhandler> Does someone want the action to send it to the list?
[00:41] <starcraftman> jgoguen: That's it, bodhi_zazen, I'm filling a complaint, you saw him swipe it right off my plate!
[00:41] <Silver_Fox_> Go nhandler
[00:42] <paultag> +1 -- great idea
[00:42] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:42] <lukjadOO7> jgoguen: I suggest that people have to be inducted in
[00:42] <bodhi_zazen> move to vote ?
[00:42] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, yup
[00:42] <nhandler> We have several lists of FG members that we currently maintain. Most have outdated lists on the wiki
[00:42] <paultag> LP is a lot better then wiki
[00:42] <jgoguen> And more accurate
[00:42] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]Use Launchpad as official member list for FGs and remove wiki lists
[00:42] <MootBot> Please vote on: Use Launchpad as official member list for FGs and remove wiki lists.
[00:42] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:42] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:42] <Silver_Fox_> -1
[00:42] <MootBot> -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:42] <nigel_nb> and it expires too
[00:42] <bodhi_zazen> +10
[00:42] <paultag> +1
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:42] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:42] <pleia2> +1
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:42] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:42] <nhandler> +1
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:42] <swoody> +1
[00:42] <drs305> +1
[00:42] <jgoguen> +1
[00:42] <lukjadOO7> +0
[00:42] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 5 for, 1 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:42] <starcraftman> I wanted clarity on this, is it just main membership or FGs too?
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 6 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 7 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:42] <dvz-> +0
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:42] <starcraftman> +1
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 9 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:42] <MootBot> Abstention received from lukjadOO7. 9 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:42] <jgoguen> starcraftman: Main AFAIK
[00:42] <paultag> starcraftman, everything
[00:42] <MootBot> Abstention received from dvz-. 9 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:42] <MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 10 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:42] <lukjadOO7> +0
[00:43] <nhandler> starcraftman: The ~ubuntu-beginners member list is already the official list for the team
[00:43] <PabloRubianes> +1
[00:43] <MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 11 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 10
[00:43] <nhandler> This is just FGs now
[00:43] <Silver_Fox_> Anymore votes?
[00:43] <starcraftman> paultag: so we will make separate groups umbrellad under the main then eh?
[00:43] <jgoguen> starcraftman: Although if you're not in the main team, you're probably also not on a FG :)
[00:43] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:43] <MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 10
[00:43] <paultag> starcraftman, yis
[00:43] <nhandler> They already are starcraftman
[00:43] <starcraftman> paultag: rgr
[00:43] <paultag> +1 nhandler
[00:43] <starcraftman> alright, I'm just checking.
[00:43] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]Use Launchpad as official member list for FGs and remove wiki lists
[00:43] <MootBot> AGREED received: Use Launchpad as official member list for FGs and remove wiki lists
[00:43] <paultag> You can't be in a FG without being in the UBT
[00:43] <nhandler> You can participate with the FG though
[00:43] <nhandler> (You just can't be an official member)
[00:43] <paultag> nhandler, for sure
[00:44] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC] Decision on logging of #ubuntu-beginners
[00:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Decision on logging of #ubuntu-beginners
[00:44] <jgoguen> Yes, I worded that poorly
[00:44] <paultag> nhandler, we have a ton of dev heads that became UBT because of dev
[00:44] <paultag> nhandler, take dvz- as example :)
[00:44] <nhandler> :)
[00:44] <Silver_Fox_> Hmm,  easwer is not here
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/images/smilies/Beating_a_dead_horse.gif
[00:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/images/smilies/Beating_a_dead_horse.gif
[00:44] <Silver_Fox_> Heh
[00:44] <bodhi_zazen> I think moving the banter makes logging of the main channel more palatable to most ?
[00:44] <starcraftman> logging again?
[00:45] <nigel_nb> In this case, we'd be logging the place where we help
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> see linky starcraftman =)
[00:45] <nigel_nb> and I'm okay with that
[00:45] <duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: and the logging might encourage the banter to be moved to cabaret
[00:45] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]  Leave for now,  Discuss more in light of recent team channel changes
[00:45] <MootBot> Please vote on:   Leave for now,  Discuss more in light of recent team channel changes.
[00:45] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:45] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> we need an up or down vote on loging
[00:45] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:45] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:45] <lukjadOO7> -1
[00:45] <MootBot> -1 received from lukjadOO7. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:45] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:45] <dvz-> +0
[00:45] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from dvz-. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:45] <starcraftman> +0
[00:45] <bodhi_zazen> -1
[00:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:45] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:45] <nhandler> +0
[00:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 2 for, 2 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:45] <PabloRubianes> +0
[00:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from PabloRubianes. 2 for, 2 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 0
[00:46] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 3 for, 2 against, 4 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:46] <drs305> +0
[00:46] <pleia2> +1
[00:46] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 3 for, 2 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:46] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 2 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:46] <jgoguen> +1
[00:46] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 5 for, 2 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:46] <paultag> +0
[00:46] <MootBot> Abstention received from paultag. 5 for, 2 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:46] <Silver_Fox_> Anymore votes?
[00:46] <valindil89> +0
[00:46] <MootBot> Abstention received from valindil89. 5 for, 2 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:46] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:46] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 2 against. 7 abstained. Total: 3
[00:46] <nhandler> Just a reminder, only BT members should be voting
[00:46] <pleia2> duanedesign: banter goes to -cafe :)
[00:46] <bodhi_zazen> OK, but I'm warning you, if we do not decide on logs we need to post the dead horse icon and move it off the agenda =)
[00:46] <lukjadOO7> I just would like to say, that I am not comfortable being logged publically
[00:47] <Silver_Fox_> Hmm,  I don't think that was passed
[00:47] <Silver_Fox_> Too many abstentions?
[00:47] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, +1
[00:47] <nhandler> Silver_Fox_: +0s do not block
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think we voted +1 on -cafe
[00:47] <Silver_Fox_> Ahh,  okay
[00:47] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, yeah we did :)
[00:47] <bodhi_zazen> I think the vote was to move banter to ##cabaret
[00:47] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]  Leave channel logging until later.
[00:47] <MootBot> AGREED received:   Leave channel logging until later.
[00:48] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it was the first vote IIRC
[00:48] <bodhi_zazen> yes, but that vote covered 3 topics
[00:48] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC]Security Focus Group Plans for next year
[00:48] <MootBot> New Topic: Security Focus Group Plans for next year
[00:48] <bodhi_zazen> and the 3 were subsequently voted on
[00:48] <dvz-> Silver_Fox_: you threw me off...
[00:48] <Silver_Fox_> Hmm,  cprofit is not here.
[00:48] <dvz->  Silver_Fox_ > [VOTE]  Leave for now,  Discuss more in light of recent team channel changes      "Leave for now"  i thought referred to "leave the mtg for now"
[00:49] <dvz-> o.O
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> we do not need to vote if cprofit is not here and did not assign a proxy, just moe on
[00:49] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC] Unvoice members of the beginners team in #ubuntu-beginners, it is against Irc (n)etiquette
[00:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Unvoice members of the beginners team in #ubuntu-beginners, it is against Irc (n)etiquette
[00:49] <bodhi_zazen> *move*
[00:50] <paultag> -1
[00:50] <paultag> I find this silly.
[00:50] <lukjadOO7> +1
[00:50] <drs305> Why?
[00:50] <Silver_Fox_> Does anyone know why we should do this?
[00:50] <lukjadOO7> -1
[00:50] <lukjadOO7> sorry
[00:50] <paultag> the use of voice is to show a member from a non-member
[00:50] <drs305> Not why silly, why unvoice?
[00:50] <nhandler> I am curious as to what netiquette this violates. Many teams use a similar system (including freenode staff)
[00:50] <paultag> +1 nhandler
[00:50] <nigel_nb> pleia2 said its frowned upon in IRC
[00:50] <paultag> I disagree vehemently
[00:50] <bodhi_zazen> 'The use  of voice is frowned upon in Ubuntu channels, we are all "equals"
[00:51] <nhandler> Being OPed when you don't need to is frowned upon, nothing wrong with voice
[00:51] <nigel_nb> but if we remove voice, it would lead to bot abuse
[00:51] <lukjadOO7> I would like to point out that votebot works with voice
[00:51] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: It is used in a few Ubuntu channels as well
[00:51] <nigel_nb> since bot would have to answer to everyone
[00:51] <persia> Not that I frequent that channel, but one can usually calm a channel with social cues, rather than needing to restrict voice by technical means.  Using technical means may also dissuade new productive people from joining.
[00:51] <nhandler> Don't worry about VoteBot. That should not affect our decision
[00:51] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think I see voice in our channel that way, and we have so many that come and go, and we do have a very formal membership process, perhaps the most formal I know short of ubuntu membership
[00:51] <paultag> +1 bodhi_zazen
[00:51] <lukjadOO7> It also is a useful visual indicator to who is a team member
[00:52] <paultag> +1 lukjadOO7
[00:52] <nhandler> persia: Everyone can talk in the channel (it is not +m). Voice is just used to show team members
[00:52] <paultag> +1 nhandler
[00:52] <nhandler> Similar to #ubuntu-ops and how we voice people presenting in -classroom
[00:52] <persia> Ah.  Ignore me then :)
[00:52] <nhandler> :)
[00:52] <paultag> persia, we are not _that_ bad ;)
[00:52] <bodhi_zazen> In general, the use of voice has IMO helped people know who to contact in the channel and has worked well
[00:52] <starcraftman> I don't see any reason to change current policy, all I got to note.
[00:52] <nhandler> I agree bodhi_zazen
[00:52] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE] Unvoice members of the beginners team IN #ubuntu-beginners
[00:52] <jgoguen> I think +v in our channels actually serves a purpose, a new user can come in and will see the +v people first and (I think) be more likely to ask those people things
[00:52] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Unvoice members of the beginners team IN #ubuntu-beginners.
[00:52] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:52] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:52] <pleia2> it might not be completely kosher irc netiquette-wise, but I think it's useful in -beginners
[00:52] <Silver_Fox_> -1
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[00:52] <swoody> -1
[00:52] <bodhi_zazen> -1
[00:52] <nhandler> It also helps spot potential new members
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[00:52] <MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 0 for, 4 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
[00:52] <jgoguen> -1
[00:52] <PabloRubianes> -1
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from jgoguen. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
[00:52] <paultag> -1
[00:52] <pleia2> -1
[00:52] <nigel_nb> -1
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from paultag. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6
[00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from PabloRubianes. 0 for, 7 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -7
[00:53] <nhandler> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from pleia2. 0 for, 8 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -8
[00:53] <lukjadOO7> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from nigel_nb. 0 for, 9 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -9
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 10 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -10
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from lukjadOO7. 0 for, 11 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -11
[00:53] <dvz-> -1
[00:53] <drs305> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from dvz-. 0 for, 12 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -12
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from drs305. 0 for, 13 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -13
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> Anymore votes?
[00:53] <starcraftman> -1
[00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from starcraftman. 0 for, 14 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -14
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:53] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 14 against. 0 abstained. Total: -14
[00:53] <cjohnston> wow
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED] Keep voice
[00:53] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Keep voice
[00:53] <starcraftman> haven't had a unanimous vote in a while.
[00:53] <bodhi_zazen> w00t =)
[00:53] <paultag> Haha, we unanimously hate that
[00:53] <pleia2> :)
[00:53] <paultag> w00t!!!
[00:53] <Silver_Fox_> [TOPIC] New Members =]
[00:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  New Members =]
[00:53] <nigel_nb> paultag: one big unanimous decision team
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> W00T !!!
[00:54] <nigel_nb> yaay!
[00:54] <paultag> Who's up today?!
[00:54] <dvz-> paultag: i am
[00:54] <nhandler> cjohnston is up first
[00:54] <Silver_Fox_> First up is cjohnston
[00:54] <nigel_nb> ikt and cjohnston
[00:54] <paultag> w00t! cjohnston :)
[00:54] <cjohnston> o/
[00:54] <nhandler> cjohnston: Do you have a link to your wiki?
[00:54] <dvz-> cjohnston: word :D
[00:54] <Silver_Fox_> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cjohnston
[00:54] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cjohnston
[00:54] <cjohnston> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristopherJohnston
[00:54] <nhandler> cjohnston: Do you want to tell us a little about yourself?
[00:54] <nigel_nb> cjohnston is already an ubuntu member :)
[00:55] <paultag> o/
[00:56] <drs305> nhandler:  cj's looking on google for the answer.
[00:56] <bodhi_zazen> it is OK nigel_nb , we will not hold that against cjohnston
[00:56] <cjohnston> IRL I am a firefighter paramedic... Around here I am one of the leads on the User Days Team, a member of the Florida LoCo
[00:56] <cjohnston> lol
[00:56] <nigel_nb> bodhi_zazen: lol
[00:56] <paultag> cjohnston, could you tell us about what LoCo work have you done, also a bit about what you did at UDS and what's up with User Days
[00:56] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE]  cjohnston  for membership
[00:56] <MootBot> Please vote on:   cjohnston  for membership.
[00:56] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[00:56] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[00:56] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[00:56] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:56] <nigel_nb> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[00:56] <nhandler> Wait a minute Silver_Fox_
[00:56] <drs305> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[00:56] <paultag> Well sonofa
[00:56] <pleia2> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[00:56] <nhandler> We still have questions for him
[00:56] <Rocket2DMn> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[00:56] <paultag> That sucked
[00:56] <swoody> +1
[00:56] <paultag> cut off short
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[00:56] <drs305> too late
[00:56] <paultag> +1
[00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[00:57] <starcraftman> +1
[00:57] <Silver_Fox_> Sorry nhandler ,
[00:57] <paultag> I like you anyway cjohnston :P
[00:57] <MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
[00:57] <bodhi_zazen> paultag: twss
[00:57] <cjohnston> thanks paultag
[00:57] <lukjadOO7> +1
[00:57] <MootBot> +1 received from lukjadOO7. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
[00:57] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Ha!
[00:57] <jgoguen> bodhi_zazen: :D
[00:57] <Silver_Fox_> Anymore votes?
[00:57] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 11 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 11
[00:57] <starcraftman> cjohnston: keep up the stellar work :)
[00:57] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[00:57] <MootBot> Final result is 11 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 11
[00:57] <pleia2> hooray cjohnston :)
[00:57] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]  Yay cjohnston
[00:57] <MootBot> AGREED received:   Yay cjohnston
[00:57] <cjohnston> thanks starcraftman and pleia2
[00:57] <nigel_nb> congrats cjohnston :)
[00:57] <dvz-> ahh..+1
[00:57] <paultag> cjohnston, P.S. you only got away with that because of your record ;)
[00:57] <swoody> woot! congrats cjohnston :)
[00:57] <nhandler> Congrats cjohnston
[00:57] <Silver_Fox_> Well done
[00:57] <dvz-> i blacked out in FF7
[00:57] <paultag> cjohnston, congrats :)
[00:57] <nhandler> cjohnston: What is your LP name?
[00:57] <cjohnston> thanks all
[00:57] <cjohnston> chrisjohnston
[00:57] <nigel_nb> dvz-: again the same thing
[00:58] <cjohnston> ~chrisjohnston
[00:58] <nigel_nb> dvz-: I believe u slept through mine too...lol
[00:58] <dvz-> nigel_nb: hrm?
[00:58] <Silver_Fox_> Next up is ikt
[00:58] <dvz-> nigel_nb: lmao...ya
[00:58] <duanedesign> love the pics from Florida Team Birthday Bash / Karmic Release Party, looks fun.
[00:58] <Silver_Fox_> Who doesn't appear to be here.
[00:58] <cjohnston> paultag: whats my record? :-x
[00:58] <nhandler> And forestpiskie isn't here either
[00:58] <Silver_Fox_> Okay,  any last minute things to add by anyone?
[00:58] <paultag> cjohnston, your wiki is better then most, that's enough to get away with it :)
[00:58] <nhandler> Silver_Fox_: Should we hold off on voting?
[00:58] <paultag> Oh shoot, me Silver_Fox_
[00:58] <cjohnston> lol.. thanks.. i guess
[00:58] <paultag> Silver_Fox_, UFBT reunion, nhandler, POKE ;)
[00:59] <nigel_nb> cjohnston: since you strong-armed quite a lot of people ;)
[00:59] <nhandler> Ah yes
[00:59] <Silver_Fox_> I would nhandler ,  neither ikt nor forest are here
[00:59] <nhandler> Silver_Fox_: o/
[00:59] <cjohnston> nigel_nb: lol
[00:59] <Silver_Fox_> Go paultag
[00:59] <Silver_Fox_> You have 1 minute
[00:59] <paultag> nhandler, you had the original idea -- hit it up
[00:59] <Silver_Fox_> Short and sweet :)
[00:59] <paultag> nhandler, I'll back up where I know :)
[00:59] <nhandler> The idea is to organize an online reunion of some of the older UFBT members (from back when we were the UFBT)
[01:00] <nhandler> We have started putting together a list of people to hunt down
[01:00] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/UFBTReunion2010
[01:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/UFBTReunion2010
[01:00] <dvz-> nhandler: we're not UFBT anymore?
[01:00] <dvz-> since when?
[01:00] <dvz-> O.O
[01:00] <paultag> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/UFBTReunion2010
[01:00] <paultag> doh, too late :)
[01:00] <Silver_Fox_> Since a long time.
[01:00] <lukjadOO7> dvz-: LOL
[01:00] <duanedesign> what are we doing?
[01:00] <duanedesign> oops
[01:00] <Silver_Fox_> Okay I am going to end the meeting.  This can be carried on in #ubuntu-beginners
[01:00] <paultag> duanedesign, quick, 1-2 hour event where old members come back and hang out :)
[01:01] <nhandler> Silver_Fox_: Why? Nobody is after us
[01:01] <nigel_nb> isnt ikt around?
[01:01] <Silver_Fox_> Oh okay then nhandler  :)
[01:01] <Silver_Fox_> Did't see who's next
[01:01] <nigel_nb> Silver_Fox_: hold on
[01:01] <dvz-> man, i remember almost all of them...
[01:01] <dvz-> i feel old.
[01:01] <Silver_Fox_> Carry on then
[01:01] <nhandler> Feel free to add people to the list or add info about people already there
[01:01] <dvz-> i still miss y_lee in -dev
[01:01] <paultag> dvz-, +1
[01:01] <nhandler> You can also sign up to contact and hunt down people on the list
[01:02] <Silver_Fox_> Though I would like to end the meeting in next 10 minutes as it quite early here
[01:02] <nigel_nb> Silver_Fox_: ikt is here
[01:02] <nhandler> np Silver_Fox_
[01:02] <Silver_Fox_> Hey ikt
[01:02] <ikt> hello all :)
[01:02] <nhandler> ikt: Do you have a link to your wiki?
[01:02] <cjohnston> ikt: !
[01:02] <starcraftman> lo ikt, just in time.
[01:02] <ikt> yeah: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ikt
[01:02] <Silver_Fox_> I would like to vote on ikt right now :)
[01:02] <nhandler> ikt: And could you tell us a bit about yourself and your involvement with the BT ?
[01:03] <paultag> Hold on Silver_Fox_
[01:03] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ikt
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ikt
[01:03] <Silver_Fox_> Thanks nhandler ,  I was just doing that :)
[01:03] <paultag> ikt, do you have your UF link?
[01:03] <ikt> yeah, without going into to much detail, 23 years old, heavily involved with computers and ubuntu
[01:03] <paultag> ikt, you mention being active in the ABT
[01:03] <cjohnston> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=362528 <--forums
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=362528 <--forums
[01:03] <cjohnston> for itk
[01:03] <cjohnston> ikt:
[01:03] <paultag> ty cjohnston
[01:04] <ikt> yeah paultag, visit abt daily looking for 0 reply posts
[01:04] <nhandler> ikt: What have you done with the BT so far?
[01:04] <paultag> ikt, how long have you been active in the community for?
[01:04] <ikt> I believe it was in early 2009 that I started really getting into things
[01:04] <paultag> cool :)
[01:04] <dvz-> ikt, what's your favorite built in python function? :-)
[01:04] <paultag> I'm all set
[01:04] <paultag> oh wait, one more :)
[01:04] <cjohnston> lol
[01:05] <paultag> ikt, what's the airspeed of a swallow?
[01:05] <paultag> unladen
[01:05] <lukjadOO7> paultag I was gonna say...
[01:05] <dvz-> lol..me too paultag ..you're slippin
[01:05] <swoody> airspeed velocity*
[01:05] <ikt> :P
[01:05] <dvz-> ikt those weren't rhetorical questions either :D
[01:06] <Silver_Fox_> Oh ikt  doesn't know... lets vote then :)
[01:06] <paultag> :(
[01:06] <Silver_Fox_> [VOTE] ikt for membership
[01:06] <MootBot> Please vote on:  ikt for membership.
[01:06] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[01:06] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[01:06] <lukjadOO7> For not knowing, -100000000000000000
[01:06] <paultag> +1
[01:06] <Silver_Fox_> +1
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[01:06] <dvz-> +1
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[01:06] <lukjadOO7> +1
[01:06] <swoody> +1
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from lukjadOO7. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[01:06] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[01:06] <MootBot> Private abstention received. 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Count is now 6
[01:06] <starcraftman> +1
[01:06] <MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
[01:06] <MootBot> Private abstention received. 7 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Count is now 7
[01:06] <Silver_Fox_> Anymore votes?
[01:06] <starcraftman> can't be that bad, he's got me friended on forums :)
[01:07] <nigel_nb> +1
[01:07] <MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 8 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 8
[01:07] <Silver_Fox_> [ENDVOTE]
[01:07] <MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 8
[01:07] <swoody> woot!!! Grats ikt :D
[01:07] <ikt> wooooot :)
[01:07] <Silver_Fox_> [AGREED]  Ikt is in and should watch Holy Grail
[01:07] <paultag> grats ikt :)
[01:07] <duanedesign> yeah ikt \o/
[01:07] <lukjadOO7> Anymore, or are we done?
[01:07] <MootBot> AGREED received:   Ikt is in and should watch Holy Grail
[01:07] <cjohnston> wtf
[01:07] <paultag> Silver_Fox_, :)
[01:07] <paultag> +1
[01:07] <nigel_nb> I think we're done
[01:07] <Silver_Fox_> :)
[01:07] <cjohnston> sorry.. wtg
[01:07] <ikt> ty all :)
[01:07] <Silver_Fox_> I think we are done :)
[01:07] <nhandler> ikt: Do you have a link to your LP profile?
[01:07] <swoody> cjohnston, lol
[01:07] <Silver_Fox_> Well done ikt
[01:07] <lukjadOO7> Congrats ikt and cjohnston
[01:07] <cjohnston> ty
[01:07]  * canthus13 should rip holy grail and watch it again.
[01:07] <ikt> https://launchpad.net/~noname420
[01:08] <duanedesign> http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/
[01:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/
[01:08] <Silver_Fox_> #endmeeting
[01:08] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:08.
[01:08] <Silver_Fox_> Thank you everyone.
[01:08] <paultag> Later, gaters :)
[01:09] <nigel_nb> Silver_Fox_: end meeting?
[01:09] <nigel_nb> ah :)
[13:59] <ttx> o/
[13:59] <sommer> yo
[13:59]  * stgraber waves
[13:59] <erichammond> 'lo
[13:59]  * soren waves
[13:59]  * jjohansen here
[13:59] <mjeanson> hi
[13:59] <jiboumans> o/
[13:59] <zul> morning
[13:59] <kirkland_> o/
[13:59] <mathiaz> i/
[14:00] <jiboumans> smoser: morning ;)
[14:00] <kirkland_> mathiaz: did a witchdoctor shrink your head?
[14:00] <soren> I hate that.
[14:00] <nijaba`> o/
[14:00] <smoser> hola
[14:00] <jiboumans> alright, let's get going
[14:00] <mathiaz> kirkland_: :) - you don't wanna know
[14:00] <jiboumans> #startmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is jiboumans.
[14:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:00] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] Previous actions points
[14:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Previous actions points
[14:01] <zul> mathiaz: lay off the alcohol
[14:01] <jiboumans> only one outstanding, one me to check with the foundations team what to do with ecryptfs.
[14:01]  * ivoks o/
[14:01] <jiboumans> looks like we'll be moving maintenance to the foundations team, but it's pending an OK from colin & hugh. more next week probably
[14:02] <jiboumans> now, to the more interesting bits:
[14:02] <alexm> o/
[14:02] <kirkland_> jiboumans: thx
[14:02] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] Non-alpha2 targeted specs for lucid
[14:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Non-alpha2 targeted specs for lucid
[14:02] <jiboumans> we have a list of 6'ish specs we'd like to dicuss here today. if all is well, ttx mailed the relevant drafters/assignees
[14:03] <jiboumans> i saw mathiaz here, so let's start there:
[14:03] <jiboumans> server-lucid-aws-client-libraries (mathiaz)
[14:04] <jiboumans> mathiaz: to get the ball rolling on this, what do you need from us and the community?
[14:04] <mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-aws-client-libraries
[14:04] <mathiaz> jiboumans: decide which libraries are worth packaging
[14:04] <mathiaz> jiboumans: ie which ones are the most used
[14:04] <mathiaz> jiboumans: and if there is anything missing
[14:05] <mathiaz> jiboumans: next step: send an email to ubuntu-cloud@, ubuntu-ec2@ and blog about it
[14:05] <jiboumans> mathiaz: fair enough. Looks like we have the following languages we're looking to target: Python Perl Php Java Ruby Twisted
[14:05] <mathiaz> jiboumans: well - the first two WI
[14:05] <jiboumans> do we have any resident experts on any of those languages?
[14:05] <erichammond> Perl here
[14:05] <jiboumans> jiboumans: perl
[14:06] <jiboumans> erichammond: are you ok with us sharing the action to fill in that list?
[14:06] <mathiaz> both perl and python seems covered
[14:06] <mathiaz> only java is missing
[14:06] <jiboumans> mathiaz: php/ruby?
[14:06] <mathiaz> which is the other langage that has projects listed
[14:06]  * nijaba` can volunteer some php testing
[14:06] <erichammond> jiboumans: I'm ok with you doing it all :) but can help where needed.  I just added a link to Amazon's Amazon::SimpleDB
[14:07]  * zul thinks php is evil
[14:07] <zul> and ruby
[14:07] <jiboumans> erichammond: fair enough, won't take me long anyway
[14:07]  * nijaba` is evil anyway :P
[14:07] <mathiaz> jiboumans: I don't know if there any projects written in these langages
[14:07] <mathiaz> jiboumans: more invesitigation is needed
[14:07] <jiboumans> [ACTION] jib to complete Perl list for AWS client libs
[14:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jib to complete Perl list for AWS client libs
[14:07] <jiboumans> [ACTION] nijaba to complete PHP list for AWS client libs
[14:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba to complete PHP list for AWS client libs
[14:07] <jiboumans> mathiaz: cool, then you get to mail people about that :)
[14:08] <jiboumans> [ACTION] Mathiaz to send out AWS Client lib RFC
[14:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Mathiaz to send out AWS Client lib RFC
[14:08] <jiboumans> mathiaz: think we can have that list complete by next meeting?
[14:08] <mathiaz> jiboumans: sure
[14:09] <jiboumans> cool. bonus points if we can get community packaging efforts going *hint hint* ;)
[14:09] <jiboumans> mathiaz: anything else for this spec?
[14:09] <ttx> jiboumans: let's harness our huge java packaging community :)
[14:09] <mathiaz> jiboumans: not for now
[14:09] <jiboumans> ttx: well volunteered!
[14:10] <jiboumans> ok, moving on
[14:10] <jiboumans> daviey, dufet: o/
[14:10] <ivoks> ]
[14:10] <ttx> dyfet ^
[14:10] <jiboumans> dyfet also
[14:10] <erichammond> jiboumans: There is a *different* Amazon::SimpleDB on CPAN which is not high quality, not maintained, and the author did not respond to my questions about its status.  My ideal solution would be for Amazon's package to be renamed to Net::Amazon::SimpleDB and added to CPAN and then libnet-amazon-simpledb in Ubuntu.
[14:10] <jiboumans> erichammond: ack
[14:10] <jiboumans> kirkland: don't miss that in the summary please ^
[14:11] <jiboumans> ok, both not around yet, trying again in am inute
[14:11] <kirkland_> jiboumans: got it!
[14:11] <jiboumans> ivoks, roaksoax: server-lucid-cluster-stack
[14:11] <ivoks> i'm here
[14:12] <ivoks> i've packaged most of the relveant stuff for pacemaker based cluster
[14:12] <ivoks> everything is on my PPA (https://edge.launchpad.net/~ivoks/+archive/ppa/+packages)
[14:12] <jiboumans> cool. are you targeting anything else for lucid as part of that spec?
[14:12] <ivoks> so, i'll be testing latest version of pacemaker during this week and give a proposal on which cluster stack to use in lucid, stay with rhcs or move to pacemaker
[14:13] <mathiaz> ivoks: what are the consequence for redhat-cluster-suite?
[14:13] <mathiaz> ivoks: It's related to the demotion of redhat-cluster-suite to universe
[14:13] <ivoks> mathiaz: if pacemaker ends up good, i'd agree with rhcs dmotion
[14:13] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok
[14:14] <ivoks> but if pacemaker isn't there yet, i don't think we should ship lts without cluster solution
[14:14] <mathiaz> ivoks: I'd suggest to do a call for testing via a blog post to get more feedback on pacemaker
[14:14] <mathiaz> ivoks: and your ppa packages
[14:14] <ivoks> that's the plan, right
[14:14] <ttx> ivoks: s/without/waithout a supported/ ?
[14:14] <ivoks> ttx: right
[14:15] <ivoks> sorry for not doing this sooner, i had very little time :(
[14:15] <jiboumans> ivoks: i'm keen to track this spec as we do with our other blueprints. could you list the TODOs for lucid in the blueprint as described here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
[14:15] <ivoks> jiboumans: consider it done
[14:15] <jiboumans> ivoks++ thanks
[14:15] <ivoks> (i've seen your comment)
[14:16] <jiboumans> ivoks: i'm particularly interested in the items that need to be done for alpha3 obviously
[14:16] <jiboumans> ivoks, anyone else: anything more on this spec?
[14:16] <ivoks> when is alpha3?
[14:16] <jiboumans> ivoks: 25th of feb
[14:16] <soren> Feb 25th.
[14:16] <jiboumans> ivoks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule # for the full list
[14:16] <mathiaz> ivoks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
[14:17] <ivoks> packages and testing should be done, and we should have clear vision what should be supported cluster
[14:17] <ivoks> (i'm on GPRS connection, so i might be lagged)
[14:17] <jiboumans> ivoks: awesome. anyone have somethign to add still?
[14:17] <nijaba`> ivoks: or http://people.ubuntu.com/~vorlon/UbuntuReleaseSchedule.ics
[14:18] <jiboumans> ok, moving on: lucid-serverguide (sommer)
[14:18] <jiboumans> sommer: i realise this is a docs project, but i'm sure we can make your life easier somehow
[14:18] <sommer> heh, that'd be great... I haven't had much time recently to work on the serverguide, but there have been some bug fixes committed
[14:19] <sommer> should have more time in the coming weeks as well
[14:19] <nijaba`> sommer: you did see that www.ubuntu.com/server/doc now works, right?
[14:19] <sommer> yep, good stuff :)
[14:19] <nijaba`> sommer: do you need with the wiki linking we talked about?
[14:20] <nijaba`> s/need/need help/
[14:20] <sommer> I think I should be able to handle that... it's at the top of my list, but if you'd like to setup some of the pages that'd be great too
[14:21] <jiboumans> [ACTION] ivoks to update server-lucid-cluster-stack with lucid (and alpha3) goals
[14:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to update server-lucid-cluster-stack with lucid (and alpha3) goals
[14:21] <jiboumans> (before i forget)
[14:21] <nijaba`> sommer: ok, let's talk about it off meeting
[14:21] <jiboumans> sommer: would it be helpful to have a weekly agenda point in this meeting for us to give updates on big changes and/or for you to ask questions?
[14:21] <sommer> nijaba`: sounds good
[14:22] <sommer> jiboumans: possibly, but the last couple of meetings I've had to duck out early
[14:22] <jiboumans> sommer: we can move the topic forward if that's useful to you
[14:22] <jiboumans> we're here all week^Whour
[14:23] <sommer> I think I can keep up... just need to ask more questions when I fall behind
[14:24] <jiboumans> sommer: ok. if you change yoru mind, i'm happy to give it a dedicated slot. we really appreciate the work that goes into this doc and want to make it as painless as possible
[14:24] <jiboumans> anything else for the docs blueprint?
[14:24] <sommer> jiboumans: sounds great much thanks
[14:24] <jiboumans> sommer: np
[14:24] <jiboumans> alright, moving on:
[14:25] <jiboumans> soren, jdstrand, stgraber: server-lucid-contextualization
[14:25] <jiboumans> stgraber: it's currently not milestoned; are you still dedicated to getting this in for lucid?
[14:25] <stgraber> yep
[14:26] <jiboumans> great. what is left for you to do when soren/jdstrand finish there bugs/items?
[14:26] <stgraber> I'm sorry, I'm on the phone at the same time
[14:26] <jiboumans> stgraber: no worries, should we do papercuts first?
[14:27] <stgraber> just finished my call
[14:27] <stgraber> so, I have on my todolist to check the state of current libvirt in Lucid + the lxc tool
[14:27] <stgraber> I contacted the Debian maintainer for the lxc userspace and he told me he was going to update it to current upstream
[14:27] <soren> I remember there were some issues with upstart and containers.
[14:28] <stgraber> once it's done, I'll get that synced in Lucid and will try to get a MIR on that
[14:28] <jiboumans> stgraber: does that sound realistic before alpha3?
[14:28] <jiboumans> (feb 25th)
[14:28] <stgraber> yes, upstart, especially umount can cause some issues with containers. Last time I tried Lucid containers worked correctly at least
[14:28] <stgraber> otherwise, I'm getting quite familiar with mountall due to LTSP bugs I'm helping debug from time to time, so it shouldn't be that hard to make it work properly
[14:29] <stgraber> jiboumans: updated userspace + tested libvirt by then sounds perfectly realisitc
[14:29] <stgraber> *realistic
[14:29] <soren> stgraber: I thought the problems were more fundamental than that.
[14:29] <soren> stgraber: Such as upstart not dealing very well at all with not properly being pid 1.
[14:29] <jiboumans> stgraber: we'd also need to have the package in main by then, if i'm getting alpha3's milestone right (ttx, correct me if i'm wrong)
[14:29] <stgraber> soren: at least on OpenVZ I can start a Lucid container including upstart
[14:30] <soren> (as in, it did not inherit orphan processes inside containers)
[14:30] <stgraber> soren: it's PID 1 (inside the container), it's not when seen from the host
[14:30] <soren> stgraber: Precisely.
[14:30] <ttx> jiboumans: before featurefreeze, to be precise.
[14:30] <stgraber> jiboumans: I can file a MIR for it
[14:30] <Daviey> \o
[14:30] <stgraber> jiboumans: only depends for it is libc6
[14:31] <Daviey> apologies for being late, for some reason i thought it started in 30 mins
[14:31] <jiboumans> Daviey: asterisk next, stay tuned :)
[14:31] <stgraber> upstream is active, it's maintained in Debian and there's no known security issues, so it's going to be an easy one
[14:31] <jmdault> hello Daviey
[14:31] <Daviey> \o jmdault
[14:31] <jiboumans> stgraber: if you feel you can get all that done for alpha3, that'll be great
[14:31] <jiboumans> stgraber, soren, jdstrand, ttx: anything else that may be a redflag?
[14:31] <jdstrand> the one task I had is completed
[14:32] <soren> jiboumans: Not at the moment.
[14:32] <stgraber> jiboumans: I'll get that to a point where we can focus on bugfix after alpha3. So that probably won't be bugfree but at least all pieces will be there.
[14:32] <jiboumans> stgraber: that's perfect
[14:32] <jdstrand> I might mention, it would be nice to get libvirt 0.7.5 in for lucid
[14:32] <stgraber> jiboumans: +1
[14:32] <kirkland> jdstrand: are you planning to do that merge?
[14:32] <stgraber> jdstrand: +1 I mean ;)
[14:32] <jdstrand> there is an issue there cause Debian decided to run libvirt as non-root using upstream's new methods
[14:32] <jiboumans> stgraber: could i ask you to update the blueprint to reflect the work items we just discussed? (upstreams, tests, mir, etc)
[14:33] <stgraber> jiboumans: sure
[14:33] <jdstrand> how they implemented that is a) contentious and b) will likely require a *lot* of testing to make sure it doesn't break
[14:33] <ttx> jiboumans: looks good to me, pending the work items list
[14:33] <jiboumans> [ACTION] stgraber to update work item list for server-lucid-contextualization with alpha3 items
[14:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  stgraber to update work item list for server-lucid-contextualization with alpha3 items
[14:34] <jdstrand> I was thinking I would do that merge, but disable that feature, since we have apparmor protections anyway, but it probably needs further discussion
[14:34] <jdstrand> I don't really have the resources to test it without disabling the feature
[14:34] <jiboumans> jdstrand: would that be part of this spec, or merely related?
[14:35] <jdstrand> jiboumans: I think related, unless stgraber really needs 0.7.5
[14:35] <jdstrand> and the non-root stuff is definitely non-lxc
[14:35] <jdstrand> it just complicates the merge and testing (eg what will happen to euca if libvirt is non-root?)
[14:36] <jdstrand> err... libvirt runs VMs as non-root
[14:36] <jdstrand> I don't have an answer to that question, or the resources to verify it all will work
[14:36] <stgraber> jdstrand: I had lxc to work with 0.7.2 though there was quite a lot of improvement in 0.7.4 (nothing in 0.7.5 itself though)
[14:36] <jiboumans> soren, ttx: opinions welcome here
[14:36] <kirkland> jdstrand: i like the idea of using your apparmor stuff, and running libvirt as root (as upstream upstream does)
[14:36] <kirkland> jdstrand: for Lucid, at least
[14:37] <soren> jdstrand: How does what Debian does differ from what Fedora does?
[14:37] <jdstrand> kirkland: that was my thought too-- we are protected, and I will be doing more work on the security driver anyway
[14:37] <kirkland> jdstrand: +1
[14:37] <jdstrand> soren: I don't know, but I imagine fedora will be moving to non-root
[14:37] <jdstrand> when, I can't say
[14:37] <soren> jdstrand: AFAIK, they've already done that.
[14:38] <kirkland> jdstrand: on a related note, i'm working on the qemu-kvm-0.12 merge, to be done shortly after Alpha2
[14:38] <ttx> I'd go for 0.7.5 with apparmor as well, lucid is no place to get experimental
[14:38] <jdstrand> soren: what are your thoughts on the non-root stuff?
[14:39] <soren> 19:08 < danpb> unit3: yeah, but in Fedora,  the qemu process itself runs  as 'qemu' these days
[14:39] <soren> From #virt yesterday.
[14:39] <jdstrand> I'd like to be clear-- the apparmor driver would be there regardless, it is whether or not to risk the non-root bits too
[14:39] <jiboumans> ttx: agreed. the question is 'keep the current version or 0.7.5+apparmor' -- no other configuration is safe enough i think
[14:39] <jdstrand> the apparmor driver is upstreamed and in 0.7.5, and works fine
[14:39] <soren> The problem is we might end up running libvirt in a way noone else is running it.
[14:39] <ttx> slightly more costly (debian delta) to go 0.7.5+apparmor, but I guess lots of bugfixes
[14:39] <soren> ...which is simply a /different/ kind of maintenance nightmare.
[14:40] <jiboumans> ok, then let me rephrase: what do we loes by staying with current version?
[14:40] <jdstrand> soren: well, we are already in that boat with enabling the apparmor driver
[14:40] <soren> jdstrand: True.
[14:40] <jdstrand> (I also field those bugs, btw)
[14:40] <ttx> jiboumans: stgraber might hate you
[14:40] <jdstrand> (as upstream and in ubuntu)
[14:40] <soren> jdstrand: The point of contention is the fiddling with device permissions and all that jazz, right?
[14:41] <ttx> jiboumans: + number? of high-impact bugs fixed between 0.7.2 and 0.7.5
[14:41] <jdstrand> soren: yes. it generally seems not the right thing to do, and most people I've talked to aren't keen on it
[14:41] <soren> jdstrand: Yeah, I absolutely hate it.
[14:41] <jdstrand> though, I've not talked to that terribly many people
[14:41] <ttx> jiboumans: bugs that you wouldn't want to ship an LTS with
[14:42] <soren> jdstrand: I don't predict it's going to be a lasting approach.
[14:42] <stgraber> ttx: +1 (except that I won't hate him, just will file a lot of bugs for you guys to fix ;))
[14:42] <soren> jdstrand: I'm cool with sticking with running kvm as root.
[14:42] <jiboumans> ttx: that makes 0.7.5+apparmor a desired target then
[14:42] <jdstrand> soren: well, it is easy enough to run it like it has always been run (ie as root), using the apparmor driver
[14:42] <soren> jdstrand: It's really much more sensible than the current alternative.
[14:42] <ttx> jiboumans: I don't know how much of our long libvirt list of bugs 0.7.5 fixed
[14:43] <jiboumans> ttx: ok fearless techlead, propose a plan :)
[14:43] <jdstrand> in that case, I will do the 0.7.5, and leave out the non-root bits. if someone else wants to flip that on later, they can do that
[14:43] <soren> jdstrand: Sounds good to me.
[14:43] <jdstrand> s/0.7.5/0.7.5 merge/
[14:43] <ttx> jiboumans: knowing that unknown would help choosing the right solution
[14:44] <ttx> jiboumans: my plan would be to follow the fearless jdstrand
[14:44] <soren> oh.
[14:44] <jdstrand> and I want it clear-- please don't disable the apparmor driver if testing non-root-- we still want it for guest isolation and host protection
[14:44] <soren> Er... I would not even consider sticking with 0.7.2.
[14:44] <jiboumans> ttx: fair enough
[14:44] <ttx> soren: thanks for your support
[14:44] <soren> I completely missed that suggestion.
[14:44] <jdstrand> it runs as non-root in Debian, but all as the same user (ie no guest isolation)
[14:45] <ttx> soren: <jiboumans> ok, then let me rephrase: what do we loes by staying with current version?
[14:45] <jdstrand> plus, I'd hate for a rogue guest to have even non-root privs on my host machine
[14:45] <jiboumans> jdstrand: where can we see the progress on this? i'm expecting this to impact UEC as well after all
[14:45] <soren> Sticking with old, unsupported versions of core virtualisation stuff is no fun at all (*cough* kvm-62 in hardy *cough*).
[14:45] <jdstrand> jiboumans: 0.7.5 is still in unstable and not migrated to testing
[14:46] <jdstrand> jiboumans: so sometime after that, plus there is a blueprint for the apparmor/libvirt dev work I am doing
[14:46] <soren> jdstrand: There's plenty of precendence for being ahead of Debian testing in Ubuntu for libvirt. Even ahead of Debian experimental at times.
[14:46]  * jdstrand goes to get it
[14:46] <soren> And precedence.
[14:46] <jdstrand> jiboumans: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-lucid-libvirt-apparmor-devel
[14:47] <jdstrand> I'll add a new item for 0.7.5
[14:47] <jiboumans> jdstrand: thanks. kirkland/ttx this will affect you for UEC. please keep an eye on it and stay in touch with jdstrand
[14:47] <kirkland> jiboumans: sure thing
[14:47] <ttx> ack
[14:47] <jiboumans> stgraber, soren, jdstrand: anything more on the containers spec?
[14:48] <soren> Not at the moment.
[14:48] <stgraber> not from me, I updated the blueprint with the new items for alpha-3
[14:48] <jiboumans> stgraber++ thanks
[14:48] <jiboumans> ok, next topic: server-lucid-asterisk-integration (dyfet, Daviey)
[14:48] <jmdault> and jmdault ...
[14:48] <jmdault> ;-)
[14:48] <dyfet> yes
[14:48] <jiboumans> jmdault: appologies :)
[14:48] <jiboumans> first order of business: who's the contact for this spec?
[14:48] <Daviey> \i
[14:49] <jiboumans> or drafter? or the person i'll be gently but firmly shaking in this meeting?
[14:49] <jmdault> jiboumans: you can shake me
[14:49] <dyfet> lol
[14:49] <jiboumans> jmdault: thanks for volunteering :)
[14:49] <dyfet> That works for me also!
[14:49] <jmdault> good
[14:49] <jiboumans> jmdault: this spec has been lingering a bit; are you still commited to this for lucid?
[14:50] <jmdault> jiboumans: yes, definitely
[14:50] <Daviey> I'm very keen to try and keep the packages from Debian as pristine as possible, and work with Debian's pkg-voip closer.
[14:50] <dyfet> I concur
[14:50] <jiboumans> excellent. You've all been doing this for a while, so you know what parts need to be done by alpha3
[14:50] <jmdault> me too
[14:51] <zul> are you guys looking to get asterisk in main?
[14:51] <jmdault> Asterisk 1.6.2 is officially released now
[14:51] <jiboumans> could i ask you to update the spec accordingly and prefix the people doing the tasks so pitti's magic tool picks it up?
[14:51] <jmdault> zul: not sure about main... we need to handle security updates, and that's gonna be a lot of work
[14:52] <jiboumans> mathiaz: wasn't asterisk on your promotion/demotion list?
[14:52] <Daviey> zul: not at present.
[14:52] <mathiaz> jiboumans: nope
[14:52] <mathiaz> jiboumans: I don't think so
[14:52] <jiboumans> mathiaz: ok, i probably misremembered then :)
[14:52] <zul> jiboumans: it was on my list but it got rejected
[14:52] <mathiaz> jiboumans: mainly for security reasons - jdstrand ^^?
[14:53] <zul> security reasons and lack of hardware for testing
[14:53] <Daviey> it did have a MIR
[14:54] <jiboumans> [ACTION] jmdault to update server-lucid-asterisk-integration blueprint with alpha3 & post-alpha3 workitems and change syntax to match Pitti's workitems howto (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto)
[14:54] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jmdault to update server-lucid-asterisk-integration blueprint with alpha3 & post-alpha3 workitems and change syntax to match Pitti's workitems howto (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto)
[14:54] <jmdault> Daviey: I don't see you're subscribed to ubuntu-voip mailing list?
[14:54] <jmdault> we need some communication
[14:54] <Daviey> jmdault: i should be!  I set it up
[14:55] <Daviey> jmdault: there is now #ubuntu-voip, and i somehow feel real time communication might help.
[14:55] <jiboumans> ok, i think we're aligned on the work that needs to be done. ttx: any concerns on this one?
[14:55] <zul> you should use asterisk to talk to each other :)
[14:56] <erichammond> Tangentially related: I built custom, private Karmic AMIs for a client who is running Asterisk on EC2.  He has timing problems with the 2.6.27 kernel and we are hoping that the 2.6.31 kernel will work better.  The kernel team has offered to build 250Hz and 1000Hz EC2 kernels for testing if the default 100Hz still doesn't work under Karmic with 2.6.31.
[14:56] <jiboumans> zul++ # +7 smartypants points
[14:56] <jdstrand> the security issues regarding asterisk are that there are many vulnerabilities
[14:56] <ttx> jiboumans: not at this point
[14:56] <Daviey> erichammond: erichammond Xen and asterisk have never played well.
[14:56] <jiboumans> alright, anything more on the asterisk spec?
[14:56] <jdstrand> there hasn't been a community around asterisk to fix what we have in Ubuntu now
[14:56] <Daviey> i built different kernels with different clock speeds and it did *help*, but not perfect.
[14:56] <smoser> erichammond, we've not heard back on that ?
[14:57] <erichammond> Davley: People are running Asterisk well under EC2 with an old 1000Hz kernel.
[14:57] <smoser> iirc that was some end of november-ish, right?
[14:57] <jdstrand> adding asterisk as a supported package is not recommended-- but this was all discussed at UDS, is this up for discussion again?
[14:57] <jiboumans> jdstrand: nope
[14:57] <erichammond> smoser: The Karmic AMIs just got built as it took me a while to sort out all the vmbuilder issues.
[14:57] <jiboumans> gents, i'm going to have to ask you to take this to #ubuntu-voip :)
[14:57] <jmdault> yes, come to #ubuntu-voip
[14:58] <smoser> oh. sorry. not meaning to call you out :)
[14:58] <jmdault> we need some traffic
[14:58] <dyfet> yep
[14:58] <jiboumans> our agenda is rather full and we have to move on i'm afraid
[14:58] <jiboumans> so, next topic: server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
[14:58] <smoser> thought we were just waiting for someone else to test.
[14:58] <ttx> ok, so this is the spec following the UDS discussion we had on Server usability papercuts
[14:58] <ttx> To be successful, it needs to be a global effort shared between all Ubuntu Server team members
[14:58] <ttx> That's why I wanted to discuss the details of the project implementation before going forward
[14:58] <ttx> (not sure there is enough time in this meeting to do so, stop me if needed)
[14:58] <ttx> The blueprint whiteboards shows several subjects that we could discuss in January team meetings
[14:59] <ttx> Starting today with discussing the best way to nominate a bug as a papercut
[14:59] <ttx> jiboumans: want to move that to next week ?
[14:59] <jiboumans> ttx: given the time constraints and us being behind on some alpha2 work, yeah
[14:59] <jiboumans> ttx: i'd urge everyone to give this some thought though (perhaps you can send a mail to that extent) so we're prepared next week
[14:59] <ttx> ok. Let's discuss papercut nomination mechanism next week then
[15:00] <ttx> action me on that
[15:00] <jiboumans> [ACTION] ttx to send background mail on papercuts project for next weeks discussion
[15:00] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to send background mail on papercuts project for next weeks discussion
[15:00] <jiboumans> see how fast i type? :)
[15:00] <ttx> we share a common brain
[15:00] <zul> thats scarey
[15:00] <jiboumans> 2 men 1 brain... sounds like a bad internet movie
[15:00] <jiboumans> ok, next:
[15:00] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] blueprint status check
[15:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  blueprint status check
[15:01] <jiboumans> most seem well on track, so slightly different format:
[15:01] <jiboumans> i'd liek to discuss 3 in particular, and then a quick round table
[15:01] <jiboumans> mathiaz: server-lucid-uec-testing	12/0/13 52%
[15:01] <jiboumans> are we still on track for alpha2? halfway complete dwith a few days development time left
[15:01] <mathiaz> jiboumans: on track IMO
[15:02] <mathiaz> jiboumans: three items are about alpha2 testing
[15:02] <mathiaz> jiboumans: two others are to talk with upstream
[15:02] <jiboumans> mathiaz: if you are confident, so am i.
[15:03] <mathiaz> jiboumans: and the last ones require a bit more hardware for testing
[15:03] <jiboumans> mathiaz: IS assured me we can get the hardware at alpha2. you & ttx need to look over the details though (see the rt mail that landed in yoru box today)
[15:03] <jiboumans> ttx: any opinions on taht yet? i saw cjwatson gave some tips
[15:04] <ttx> jiboumans: that sounds very promising
[15:04] <mathiaz> jiboumans: ok
[15:04] <ttx> jiboumans: I'm glued into an upstart issue, it's next on my totest list
[15:04] <mathiaz> jiboumans: I need to catch up on the RT thread (I don't receive all the emails of it apparently)
[15:04] <ttx> jiboumans: I'd revert my opinion now to "probably not needed anymore"
[15:05] <mathiaz> jiboumans: I know how to automate iso testing though
[15:05] <ttx> mathiaz: talk to you about it later today
[15:05] <mathiaz> ttx: ok
[15:05] <jiboumans> ttx, mathiaz: stick your heads together and make a call :)
[15:05] <jiboumans> next spec:there's also this spec: server-lucid-ec2-config 8/0/2 20%
[15:06] <jiboumans> zul, mathiaz: most of the work rests with you guys now and i know you've taken it over recently
[15:06] <mathiaz> jiboumans: you == zul^^ ?
[15:06] <zul> jiboumans: i showed smoser my first cut yesterday i think im on track https://code.launchpad.net/~zulcss/ec2-init/ec2-init-config
[15:06] <smoser> i think he's on track.
[15:07] <jiboumans> mathiaz: you have the parser writing on your plate: [mathiaz] write initial config parser : TODO
[15:07] <jiboumans> zul's doing the actual configs
[15:07] <mathiaz> jiboumans: hm - well - there isn't any parser to be written :)
[15:07] <mathiaz> jiboumans: the configuration file is in yaml
[15:07] <smoser> hopefully be tomorrow morning US/Eastern or end of day tomorrow we can have a combined branch with at least packaging
[15:08] <jiboumans> where's the code that grabs the file & DTRT?
[15:08] <mathiaz> jiboumans: boothooks
[15:08] <jiboumans> or is that *all* boothooks?
[15:08] <smoser> DTRT?
[15:08] <jiboumans> 'does the right thing'
[15:09]  * jiboumans hands smoser the interwebz
[15:09] <mathiaz> jiboumans: right - boothooks grabs the user-data, locally copies the yaml configuration and then fires an cloud-config upstart event
[15:09] <smoser> ah. that is boothooks
[15:09] <smoser> bah to you and your lmgtfy, jiboumans :)
[15:09] <jiboumans> ok, fair enough. mathiaz could you update the blueprint then please/ :)
[15:09] <mathiaz> jiboumans: relevant upstart jobs start on cloud-config and do whatever they want with the configuration file
[15:09] <smoser> so boot hooks gets user data, rips out user config, puts that in a file and emits an upstart job with CFG_FILE=path-to-that-file
[15:10] <jiboumans> is there no mileage in ever running this outside upstart?
[15:10] <smoser> well, it could. the upstart job just runs something else.
[15:10] <smoser> that something else coudl be run just as easily at other times.
[15:11] <smoser> but for now i think we're interested in at early-cloud-boot
[15:11] <jiboumans> smoser: i'll leave that for a design decision then while you're writing the code :)
[15:11] <smoser> yeah.
[15:11] <smoser> we ready to move to that blueprint then :)
[15:11] <jiboumans> server-lucid-ec2-boothooks	10/0/3	23%	High
[15:12] <jiboumans> smoser: are you still on the EC2 image issue, or moved to this spec now?
[15:12] <smoser> i am actually feeling much more confident of it now than i was before.
[15:12] <smoser> the ec2 image issue has been identified. bug 503212
[15:13] <smoser> short summary, mountall doesn't work without a ramdisk, our ec2-images dont have ramdisks.
[15:13] <jiboumans> smoser: that sounds like cloud-krd is stalled pending that bug, correct?
[15:13] <smoser> well, yeah, but i have to assume that it will  be fixed. i sent mail to Keybuk, but i think he must  be out atm
[15:14] <jiboumans> fair enough. so, boothooks... on track now?
[15:14] <smoser> basically cloud-krd is done.  everything is functional (or at least *was* functional) in ec2
[15:14] <smoser> much closer to on track.  i do feel more confident now
[15:14] <jiboumans> smoser: please stay in touch wtih ttx about this
[15:15] <jiboumans> anything to add to this spec?
[15:15] <smoser> no. thanks to everyone who has helped and offered to help, though
[15:15] <jiboumans> excellent
[15:15] <jiboumans> everyone++ indeed
[15:15] <jiboumans> quick round table:
[15:16] <jiboumans> kirkland: any blockers or risks for your blueprints regarding alpha2?
[15:16] <kirkland> jiboumans: i don't think so
[15:16] <jiboumans> mathiaz: same question ^
[15:16] <mathiaz> jiboumans: I don't think so
[15:17] <jiboumans> smoser: i think we covered yours, right?
[15:17] <smoser> y
[15:17] <jiboumans> ttx: ^
[15:17] <ttx> jiboumans: I don't think so
[15:17] <smoser> y as in yes
[15:17] <jiboumans> zul: ^
[15:17] <zul> jiboumans: MIR team taking the time to review the MIR reports
[15:17] <jiboumans> zul: when do we need to have those back by?
[15:18] <zul> jiboumans: soon ill bug kees again today, i havent been able to talk to doko yet
[15:18] <jiboumans> zul: ok, flag it with me if you dont have an answer by thursday end of business
[15:18] <zul> ok
[15:19] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
[15:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
[15:19] <jiboumans> remind me who runs through this again usually :)
[15:19] <zul> ttx
[15:19] <ttx> zul: doh
[15:20]  * jiboumans watches the very slick push-infront-of-the-train action
[15:20] <ttx> Anyone has anything blocking to report ?
[15:20] <zul> nope
[15:20] <mathiaz> zope
[15:20] <ttx> Dustin, Chuck: all bugs assigned to you represent current or near-future work ?
[15:20] <kirkland> ttx: erg, yeah, near-ish future
[15:21] <zul> yeah near-ish future
[15:21] <kirkland> ttx: there's a few i'm on the *tip* of solving, uploading
[15:21] <ttx> ok
[15:21] <ttx> jiboumans: done
[15:21] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] weekly Q&A with QA
[15:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  weekly Q&A with QA
[15:21] <jiboumans> *badumtish*
[15:21] <jiboumans> soren?
[15:21] <soren> Hahah.
[15:21] <soren> Uh, yeah.
[15:22] <soren> Since last time, I've set up nightly rebuilds of a set of server packages.
[15:23] <soren> These are packages that already have test suites run at build time, but since stuff in their dependency tree might cause breakage, we need to run them periodically to detect regressions.
[15:23] <soren> ..so every night, I grab the current version of these packages and push them to a ppa.
[15:23] <soren> If they fail to build, I get an e-mail.
[15:23] <soren> Ideally, I would set something up to turn those e-mails into bug reports, but that's work to be done.
[15:24] <zul> is it possible to get a broader range of people to email?
[15:24] <soren> The current list of packages is:
[15:24] <soren> libvirt
[15:24] <soren> postgresql-8.3
[15:24] <soren> postgresql-8.4
[15:24] <soren> mysql-dfsg-5.0
[15:24] <soren> mysql-dfsg-5.1
[15:24] <soren> openldap
[15:24] <soren> php5
[15:24] <mathiaz> soren: using a team PPA so that others can get the emails as well if wanted?
[15:24] <soren> I'm sure I've missed some, so if you guys can think of anything server related that takes care to run its test suite at build time (and fails if the test suite fails), please let me know.
[15:25] <mathiaz> soren: there is dovecot
[15:25] <mathiaz> soren: it has a test suite, but not in the package
[15:25] <mathiaz> soren: it's in a different upstream hg repository
[15:25] <jiboumans> btw, this is the related spec: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-lucid-automated-server-testing
[15:25] <zul> apache has an external testsuite but you have to fiddle with the package
[15:25] <soren> mathiaz: Right, so it doesn't really apply here.
[15:25] <mathiaz> soren: upstream dovecot wiki has an explanation
[15:25] <soren> Those are separate work items.
[15:25] <soren> mathiaz: Yes, I've seen it.
[15:26] <mathiaz> soren: right
[15:26] <jiboumans> alright, sounds like a good action point
[15:26] <soren> I intend to package it at some point and get it to run periodically.
[15:26] <soren> ...I just haven't gotten round to that yet.
[15:26] <kirkland> soren: i should have a qemu-kvm-0.12 merge ready soon ... any chance there will be a testing ringer i can put it through before unleashing it on people?
[15:26] <jiboumans> [ACTION] Soren to sollicit packages that lend them selves well to nightly builds
[15:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Soren to sollicit packages that lend them selves well to nightly builds
[15:27] <soren> kirkland: We could, but I don't think my current set of tests that use kvm will exercise it much more than what you get to do on a daily basis of just using it normally.
[15:28] <kirkland> soren: gotcha
[15:28] <jiboumans> soren: anything else to report from QA?
[15:28] <soren> I'm happy to test it in my daily work, though.
[15:28] <soren> jiboumans: Not at the moment, no. I expect to have a bunch of stuff for next week (a lot of my stuff is targeted for alpha-2).
[15:28] <jiboumans> soren: we look forward to next weeks update then
[15:28] <jiboumans> any questions for soren/QA?
[15:29] <mathiaz> soren: what's the status of the Server QA position?
[15:29] <soren> mathiaz: I don't know if I have the full picture, but as far as I know, there's no-one in the pipeline right now, so it'll probably be a while.
[15:30] <soren> But like in every other context, I somehow always manage to be the last person to know anything :)
[15:31] <zul> no that would be me ;)
[15:32] <soren> See? I didn't even know that.
[15:32] <jiboumans> cute :) any other questions?
[15:32] <erichammond> I don't use the new us-west-1 region in EC2 much yet, but bug 494185 makes the official Ubuntu AMIs broken there, and users have complained.  This seems like a pretty high priority to me.  It could either be fixed by publishing updated AMIs (bug 503649) or by having IT modify the firewall on the us-east-1 apt mirror to allow external access in the short term (very low cost).
[15:34] <smoser> i think we shoudl push new images there.
[15:34] <smoser> that will solve your other bvug, eric, for updated instances of karmic for speed.
[15:34] <kirkland> jiboumans: one from me ... i uploaded a new merge of euca2ools yesterday, the first sync with upstream since Oct
[15:34] <kirkland> jiboumans: i'd like to request some testing ;-)
[15:35] <smoser> i did open a ticket service ticket on ipening up the us-east mirror to outside, but nothing on that.
[15:35] <kirkland> just in general, from anyone doing UEC/EC2 ish stuff
[15:35] <jiboumans> this is particularly for the QA team :)
[15:35] <kirkland> jiboumans: yeah, them too :-)
[15:35] <jiboumans> soren: can you/QA help with either of those issues?
[15:36] <soren> Uh..
[15:36]  * soren seems to be missing something
[15:36] <jiboumans> 'no' is an acceptable answer :)
[15:36] <soren> Sorry, how did QA get wound up in this? :)
[15:37] <jiboumans> right, 'no' it is
[15:37] <soren> Works for me :)
[15:37] <jiboumans> [ACTION] smoser to investigate publishing new AMIs
[15:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to investigate publishing new AMIs
[15:37] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] Q&A with the kernel team (jjohansen)
[15:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  Q&A with the kernel team (jjohansen)
[15:37] <jiboumans> jjohansen: so sorry to keep you waiting
[15:37] <jjohansen> np
[15:37] <smoser> erichammond, coudl you do me a favor and snif test a recent -testing build ?
[15:37] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'll test run the latest euca2ools today
[15:37] <jiboumans> jjohansen: i notice one open work item for you: 	fix kernel configs such that uec requires no ramdisk (bug 494565)
[15:37] <mathiaz> kirkland: while doing some more UEC testing
[15:38] <erichammond> smoser: sure thing.
[15:38] <erichammond> kirkland: Will euca2ools work with my EC2 account that starts with a zero now?
[15:38] <jjohansen> jiboumans: yeah, I am behind on that one, I am going to see what I can get done on that today and tomorrow
[15:38] <jiboumans> jjohansen: it's part of the alpha2 target; you see any risk of it not being done by then?
[15:39] <jjohansen> yeah it is in danger for alpha2 as kernel changes have deadline of friday
[15:39] <kirkland> erichammond: according to the changelog, yes
[15:39] <kirkland> erichammond: and commit history
[15:39] <jiboumans> smoser: what's the impact on cloud-krd if this doesn't happen?
[15:39] <kirkland> erichammond: it would be great if you could confirm, or reopen that bug if not
[15:39] <smoser> well, our uec images will just need to have a ramdisk
[15:39] <smoser> which they do now
[15:40] <jiboumans> right, so it would spill over to alpha3
[15:40] <jiboumans> jjohansen: we're still allowed to make changes like this for alpha3, yes?
[15:40] <smoser> if ever it were fixed i just have put back in a change that removes them (they didn't have a ramdisk for a while)
[15:41] <jjohansen> jiboumans: yes it should be good, its really just some config changes
[15:41] <ttx> Two bugs on my plate for the kernel team: bug 499785 and bug 499491. Both are fix committed, what's the ETA for archive ?
[15:41] <jiboumans> smoser: ok, keep an eye on this then and adjust the blueprint accordingly please
[15:42] <jjohansen> ttx: well my guess would be the kernel will be uploaded monday or tuesday
[15:42] <ttx> jjohansen: ack
[15:42] <jjohansen> just depending if something critical doesn't make friday
[15:43] <jiboumans> any other questions for the kernel team?
[15:43] <jiboumans> jjohansen: anything else we need to be aware of?
[15:43] <jjohansen> not that I can think of
[15:44] <jjohansen> wait
[15:44] <jjohansen> there is an EC2 kernel update coming
[15:44] <jjohansen> but that should break anything, I point smoser at the test kernels today
[15:44] <jiboumans> i so hope you meant 'should not' ;)
[15:45] <jjohansen> yeah :)
[15:45] <jiboumans> alright, thanks for letting us know ;)
[15:45] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
[15:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
[15:46] <mathiaz> one bug nominated for jaunty
[15:46] <mathiaz> bug 117736
[15:46]  * kirkland shudders at pam_mount
[15:46] <mathiaz> one bug nominated for karmic: bug 379329
[15:46] <mathiaz> Are these two bus SRU worth?
[15:47] <ttx> the second one should be handled by security
[15:47] <ttx> if it's worth it, they will do it
[15:47] <kirkland> mathiaz: i spent about a week working with the pam_mount source code, when I was doing the Encrypted Private dir stuff way back
[15:47] <kirkland> mathiaz: it was really bad, and so I wrote pam_ecryptfs instead
[15:48] <kirkland> mathiaz: i don't know about that bug, but pam_mount is a mess
[15:48] <mathiaz> ttx: ok - I'll leave bug 379329 alone then
[15:48] <mathiaz> jdstrand: ^^
[15:48] <jdstrand> we are aware of the bug
[15:48] <jdstrand> thanks
[15:49] <mathiaz> ok - I'll decline bug 117736
[15:50] <ScottK> Speaking of SRU review, thanks to everyone who helped out on the Spamassassin update over the weekend.
[15:50] <mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
[15:50] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
[15:50] <mathiaz> two bugs fixed last week ?! ?
[15:50] <mathiaz> anything worth SRU?
[15:51] <zul> 478973 maybe...we need to find the patch for it though
[15:51] <mathiaz> zul: could you nominate/accept the bug then?
[15:52] <zul> mathiaz: sure
[15:52] <mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
[15:52] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
[15:52] <mathiaz> zul: ^^ any progress on the bug there?
[15:52] <zul> no
[15:52] <ScottK> mathiaz: Why does the spamassassin bug not show up there?
[15:53] <mathiaz> ScottK: there == which list?
[15:53] <mathiaz> and that's all for the SRU review
[15:53] <ScottK> The bugs fixed list.
[15:54] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] open discussion
[15:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  open discussion
[15:54] <jiboumans> anythign left to be said afte 2 hours? :)
[15:54] <mathiaz> ScottK: because lp ~ubuntu-server is not a bug contact for spamassassin
[15:54]  * ttx wakes up
[15:54] <ScottK> mathiaz: I'd think it should be.
[15:54]  * kirkland looks forward to writing 2 hours of meeting minutes :-)
[15:54]  * zul cleans up his eyes
[15:54] <ttx> jiboumans: please, no
[15:54] <ScottK> Perl needs merged.
[15:54] <jiboumans> [TOPIC] next meeting
[15:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
[15:55] <nijaba`> specially since it is in main now; right?
[15:55] <ScottK> Yep
[15:55] <ScottK> Probably clamav and amavisd-new too if they aren't
[15:55] <zul> they are
[15:55] <nijaba`> double yep
[15:55] <zul> amavisd-new is at least
[15:55] <ScottK> Does somebody get an action to fix that?
[15:55] <nijaba`> mathiaz: ?? ^
[15:56] <mathiaz> done
[15:56] <jiboumans> next week; same bat time, same bat channel. hopefully only 1 hour.
[15:56] <jiboumans> thanks for your patience people
[15:56] <jiboumans> #endmeeting
[15:56] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:56.
[15:57] <kirkland> ScottK: looks like it is already https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs
[15:58] <ScottK> kirkland: Then back to the original question, how come the bug wasn't on the list?
[15:58] <kirkland> ScottK: good q
[15:59] <ScottK> If I'm going to spend a Sunday getting Spamassassin fixed on 5 releases, I'd like it to at least show up as done
[16:00] <mathiaz> ScottK: I just added spamassassin and clamav
[16:00] <ScottK> Thanks.
[16:00] <ev> hi
[16:00]  * slangasek waves
[16:00] <nijaba`> mathiaz: now that we have a script that list le server package in main, could we use it on a regular basis to automatically update lp?
[16:01] <tremolux> hey folks
[16:01] <james_w> hi
[16:02] <barry> howdy
[16:02] <doko_> hi
[16:03] <mvo> hi
[16:03] <ev> #startmeeting
[16:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is ev.
[16:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:04] <ev> [TOPIC] lightning round
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  lightning round
[16:04] <ev> barry: care to start us off?
[16:04] <barry> sure!  ...
[16:05] <cjwatson> sorry I'm late, my network has been acting up
[16:05] <barry> it was a short week because of the holidays.  i fixed bug 494704 and worked on some pycon 2010 stuff.  today i plan on trying my hand at packaging a python module that isn't in uni and catching up with various folks about next steps
[16:05] <barry> eot
[16:06] <ev> thanks barry
[16:06] <ev> cjwatson?
[16:06] <cjwatson> done: good chunk of foundations-lucid-ubiquity-partitioner-optimisation, some tweaks to various packages needed for server eucalyptus work, quite a bit of time off doing chromeos work
[16:06] <cjwatson> todo: want to try to get foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub out of the way now that upstream has fixed it to not really need device.map in most cases
[16:06] <cjwatson> blocked: foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update relies on DX work that isn't done yet; have discussed with dbarth
[16:07] <ev> cool, thanks cjwatson
[16:07] <ev> tremolux?
[16:07] <tremolux> 'm continuing to do some work on software center
[16:07] <tremolux> I've uploaded some code and one bug fix that Michael has merged
[16:07] <tremolux> I'm getting going on bug triage and fixing
[16:07] <tremolux> Oh, and I've got Lean training in Lexington tomorrow and Fri
[16:07] <ev> thanks tremolux
[16:07] <ev> james_w: around?
[16:07] <james_w> hi
[16:08] <ev> hello :)
[16:08] <ev> oh, I missed your wave before
[16:08] <ev> apologies
[16:08] <james_w> I've been working on the importer, I tracked down the bug that was killing codehosting, and I'm now getting all the branches back up to date
[16:08] <slangasek> \o/
[16:09] <ev> awesome
[16:09] <ev> thanks
[16:09] <james_w> todo: the latter of those parts, it's worked through the backlog, but there are a bunch of failures to triage
[16:09] <ev> whoops, I'm moving a bit too quick
[16:09] <ev> sorry
[16:09] <james_w> blocked: nothing. also, I'm out of the country for the next few weeks.
[16:09] <james_w> so you'll find me at odd hours, so mail may be best to track me down if desired
[16:09] <james_w> thanks
[16:10] <ev> thanks james_w
[16:10] <ev> doko__?
[16:10] <doko__> done: most gcc-4.4 ARM updates done, minor gdb update, eglibc-2.11 testing and upgrade, gcc-4.5 prepared for testing, some packaging of new upstream versions over the holidys
[16:10] <doko__> next week: gcc-4.5 testing, openjdk-6 update, prepare JCK testing with sbeattie, outstanding merges
[16:10] <doko__> blocked: can't think of anything
[16:12] <ev> doko__: cool, thanks
[16:12] <ev> mvo: ?
[16:12] <doko__> stunning silcene?
[16:12] <ev> :)
[16:12] <mvo> software-center: subcategory work, ratings&reviews client side work (needs LP server side, but some client side work can already be done)
[16:12] <mvo> maintaince-timeframe: submited LP soyuz branch for review (spec blocked until that is done)
[16:12] <mvo> "fun" with nvidia (#494627)
[16:12] <mvo> glanced over the upgrade tester results at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/ (quite some failures)
[16:14] <ev> slangasek?
[16:14] <ev> thanks mvo
[16:14] <slangasek> working this week on getting our 4th and final hardy point release rolling
[16:15] <slangasek> be prepared to receive calls for help testing :)
[16:15] <slangasek> (eot)
[16:15] <ev> thanks slangasek
[16:16] <ev> started to land my branches on ubiquity.  Working with the X team to split i18n data out of xkb-data in support of console-setup changes.  Just finished moving from gtkcomboboxes to gtkcomboentrys, to allow for type to select.  Looking into decoupling bulletproofx from gdm.
[16:16] <ev> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
[16:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
[16:16] <ev> there weren't any :)
[16:17] <ev> [TOPIC] milestoned bugs
[16:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  milestoned bugs
[16:17] <ev> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone:list=1326
[16:17] <ev> whoops, that's quite wrong, isn't it
[16:18] <slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone=21444 :)
[16:18] <ev> thanks
[16:19] <ev> anyone have any that'd they would like to raise?
[16:20] <ev> okay, moving on
[16:20] <ev> [TOPIC] sponsorship queue
[16:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  sponsorship queue
[16:21] <ev> I nearly had one, which is horrendous
[16:22] <ev> I'll add that to the new years resolutions list
[16:22] <cjwatson> I'll go do some before leaving today, as penance
[16:22] <ev> :)
[16:23] <ev> [TOPIC] Any business from activity reports
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any business from activity reports
[16:23] <ev> there weren't any items in the emails I received.  Last chance to raise something.
[16:23] <ev> Please send in your activity report if you haven't already done so
[16:26] <ev> [TOPIC] Good news
[16:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Good news
[16:26] <ev> I'm seeing Ubuntu in a lot of pictures coming from CES.
[16:27] <ev> anyone else?
[16:28] <ev> right, AOB?
[16:28] <james_w> nothing from me
[16:28] <slangasek> nothing here
[16:29] <mvo> nothing from me
[16:29] <barry> nope
[16:29] <ev> okay, thanks everyone
[16:29] <ev> #endmeeting
[16:29] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:29.
[16:30] <slangasek> thanks!
[16:30] <mvo> thanks
[16:31] <james_w> thanks
[16:32] <ev> oh, damn
[16:32] <ev> who wants to chair the next meeting?
[16:32] <ev> I'd assign it to Scott for not showing up, but he's already done it recently.
[16:47] <james_w> it's all gone strangely silent :-)
[16:50] <highvoltage> heh
[17:00] <marjo_> #startmeeting QA Team
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is marjo_.
[17:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:02]  * marjo_ waves
[17:02] <marjo_> Agenda:
[17:02] <marjo_>     * SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
[17:02] <marjo_>     * Bugday highlights -- pedro
[17:02] <marjo_>     *
[17:02] <marjo_>       Future of Ubuntu QA Launchpad team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa) -- ara
[17:02] <marjo_>     * Calls for testing: mailing list or "Contact This Team" -- ara
[17:02] <soren> o/
[17:02] <cr3> hi folks
[17:02]  * fader_ waves.
[17:02] <pedro_> hola!
[17:02] <davmor2> hello
[17:02] <sbeattie> Happy new year, everyone!
[17:03] <bdmurray> hi
[17:03]  * charlie-tca seems to have made it, too
[17:03] <kamusin> hey!
[17:03] <marjo_> ara is not available, so we'll defer the last two agenda items until next week
[17:03] <marjo_> Happy New Year to all!
[17:03] <pedro_> hello charlie-tca! welcome back
[17:03] <charlie-tca> thanks
[17:03] <charlie-tca> will try to be around again.
[17:04] <marjo_> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
[17:04] <sbeattie> SRU activity over the holidays was slow, but before and after was busy...
[17:05] <sbeattie> SRU Activity Report for the last 3 weeks (since 2009-12-16):
[17:05] <sbeattie> * karmic: 25 new packages in -proposed, and 27 packages pushed to -updates
[17:05] <sbeattie> * jaunty: 6 new packages in -proposed (landscape-client, postgresql-8.3, xorg-server, osm-gps-map, spamassassin, tzdata) and 5 packages pushed to -updates (openafs, xvidcap, zabbix, spamassassin, tzdata)
[17:05] <sbeattie> * intrepid: 5 new packages in -proposed (landscape-client, postgresql-8.3, smart, spamassassin, tzdata) and 2 package pushed to -updates (spamassassin, tzdata)
[17:05] <sbeattie> * hardy: 3 new packages in -proposed (postgresql-8.3, spamassassin, tzdata) and 3 packages pushed to -updates (alpine, spamassassin, tzdata)
[17:05] <sbeattie> * dapper: 2 new packages in -proposed (postgresql-8.1, langpack-locales) and 1 package pushed to -updates (langpack-locales)
[17:05] <sbeattie> Thanks to Mitch Towner, Sennaista, VPablo, Brad Peters, Bernhard Schmidt, Tomasz Czapiewski, Sami Nieminen, Imre Gergely, Ante Karamatić, Jonathan Marsden, Philipp Edelmann, Russell John, Dan McCombs, Thomas Bruckmaier, Drew Fisher, Swâmi Petaramesh, Tomas Rudén, Sergey Yanovich, Piotr Morgwai Kotarb, Xavier Gnata, Michele Mordenti, Daniel Nurmi, Lamer, and Rainer Schöpf for testing proposed fixes.
[17:06] <sbeattie> That's all I've got.
[17:06] <marjo_> thx to all who helped out!
[17:06] <marjo_> thx sbeattie
[17:07] <marjo_> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
[17:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday highlights -- pedro
[17:07] <pedro_> Last Bug day we organized was last year, the target was Bugs without a package
[17:07] <pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091217
[17:08] <pedro_> we had a nice participation from the community, as said on the previous meeting, that target is one of the easiest one
[17:08] <pedro_> so thanks a lot to kamusin, qense, yofel, marcosvanetta, davidboy, shankao, micahg and bdmurray for their participation
[17:08] <marjo_> pedro_ : what do you mean by "that target is one of the easiest one"?
[17:09] <pedro_> like if you want to start doing triage, that's one of the easy targets we recommend to new people
[17:09] <marjo_> ah ok, thx
[17:10] <marjo_> thx to all who participated!
[17:10] <pedro_> we are not going to have bug day this week (too much to lately) , however, we're looking targets for the next week
[17:10] <marjo_> ok
[17:11] <pedro_> so if you have something in mind, drop the idea at -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning
[17:11] <bdmurray> pedro_: I made a list of packages with lots of apport crashes if that might be interesting
[17:11] <pedro_> bdmurray, sure! sounds like a good one
[17:12] <bdmurray> like system-config-printer has 94
[17:12] <pedro_> is that list available somewhere?
[17:12] <bdmurray> It is now!
[17:12] <bdmurray> http://people.canonical.com/~brian/tmp/apport-crash-package-count.txt
[17:12] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~brian/tmp/apport-crash-package-count.txt
[17:14] <pedro_> cool will add that to the planning page, sounds like something we need to have a look from time to time at least for the bug days
[17:14] <bdmurray> I was looking for things to consolidate
[17:15] <marjo_> folks: anything else on this topic?
[17:15] <marjo_> any new topics for discussion?
[17:15] <pedro_> marjo_, on the bug days no, that's  all
[17:15] <bdmurray> I have a holiday present coming out soon
[17:15] <bdmurray> http://murraytwins.com/tmp/lp_highlight_words.png
[17:15] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://murraytwins.com/tmp/lp_highlight_words.png
[17:16] <bdmurray> Its a new greasemonkey script that highlights words in bug reports
[17:16] <bdmurray> I find it easier to scan bug reports that way
[17:16] <marjo_> bdmurray: nice!
[17:16] <pedro_> that looks great :-)
[17:16] <fader_> bdmurray: Nice!
[17:17] <bdmurray> Any suggestions for words?  This is what I have
[17:17] <bdmurray>         'DistroRelease:.*|SourcePackage:.*|lucid|karmic|jaunty|intrepid|hardy|dapper': "yellow",
[17:17] <bdmurray>         'regression': "red",
[17:18] <bdmurray> oh, maybe there should be a separate color for old releases
[17:18] <bdmurray> like breezy ;-)
[17:18] <pedro_> could you define those somewhere?
[17:18] <pedro_> ah i see
[17:19] <marjo_> folks: any new topics for discussion?
[17:19] <bdmurray> pedro_: they are currently hard coded in the script
[17:19] <bdmurray> pedro_: do you mean you'd want to add your own words?
[17:20] <pedro_> bdmurray, right, but editing the script works for me :-P
[17:20] <pedro_> i was thinking on the kernel folks, they might want to highlight the kernel version for example
[17:21] <bdmurray> pedro_: got it
[17:22] <marjo_> folks: any new topics for discussion?
[17:23] <davmor2> marjo_: just a reminder that alpha 2 is out next week unless something mad happened
[17:23] <marjo_> reminder: Alpha 2 is next week, 14 january
[17:23] <marjo_> davmor2: ack
[17:24] <davmor2> marjo_: Wrong attitude should be YAY!!!!!!
[17:24] <fader_> davmor2: :)
[17:24] <marjo_> davmor2: YAY!!!!!!!
[17:24]  * davmor2 goes off to cry in the corner being as ubiquity is broken
[17:26] <marjo_> folks: any new topics for discussion?
[17:26] <marjo_> if not, i propose we adjourn the meeting
[17:26] <marjo_> going once
[17:26] <marjo_> twice
[17:26] <marjo_> meeting adjourned
[17:26] <soren> Whee!
[17:27] <marjo_> thx everyone!
[17:27] <marjo_> #endmeeting
[17:27] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:27.
[17:27] <fader_> Thanks all
[17:27] <pedro_> thanks
[17:27] <schwuk> thanks
[17:28] <kamusin> :)
[17:28] <davmor2> ta
[19:00] <highvoltage> Good evening
[19:01]  * stgraber-n900 waves
[19:01] <alkisg> Hi all
[19:01] <highvoltage> hi, who's present?
[19:01] <stgraber-n900> fighting to get my laptop to boot :)
[19:02]  * Lns pokes his head in
[19:03] <highvoltage> ok so I have 5 people noted as present
[19:03] <highvoltage> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
[19:03] <HedgeMage> I'm here.
[19:04] <dhillon-v10> I'm here, but a new member though :)
[19:04] <highvoltage> hi dhillon-v10, and welcome
[19:04] <dhillon-v10> highvoltage, thanks and happy new year to all
[19:04] <dhillon-v10> highvoltage, you seem familiar :)
[19:04] <mgariepy> hi everybody
[19:04] <highvoltage> oh right, it's our first meeting of the year
[19:04] <Lns> hey all
[19:04] <highvoltage> happy new year to all of you then!
[19:04] <Lns> woot!
[19:06] <highvoltage> stgraber: want to say something about the netbook packages perhaps?
[19:06]  * stgraber waves for real
[19:06] <Lns> lol
[19:06]  * highvoltage couldn't help but wave for real either now :)
[19:06] <stgraber> I don't have X working but that's not really a requirement for IRC, so ...
[19:06] <stgraber> ok, so, I did the seed changes for the netbook edition
[19:07] <highvoltage> heh. nice big old fasioned 80x24 irssi :)
[19:07] <stgraber> though everything is currently stuck because the chinese packages don't install
[19:07] <maco> highvoltage: not if youve got KMS ;)
[19:07] <stgraber> nah, I have KMS so that's console but 1440x900 :)
[19:07] <dhillon-v10> stalcup, if  you don't mind, what seems to be wrong with the chinese packages :)
[19:08]  * dhillon-v10 apologizes wrong person
[19:08] <highvoltage> maco: heh, good point
[19:08] <stgraber> ok, just got X working again !
[19:08] <stgraber> though not gdm, I had to startx ;)
[19:08] <highvoltage> stgraber: I saw you spoke to someone (I think it was cjwatson) about our builds that haven't been running, did you perhaps get any clarification on that?
[19:09] <stgraber> they actually are running
[19:10] <stgraber> I just don't get an e-mail about it until it succeeds to debootstrap
[19:10] <highvoltage> ah I checked today but it still only had the old one from 23 December
[19:10] <stgraber> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/edubuntu-dvd/
[19:11] <stgraber> oh, actually, today it's something else that's broken, not the translation package
[19:12] <highvoltage> yesterday it seems like it was:
[19:12] <highvoltage>   language-support-zh: Depends: language-support-zh-hans (>= 1:10.04+20091218) but it is not going to be installed
[19:12] <stgraber>   exiv2: Depends: libexiv2-6 but it is not installable
[19:12] <nixternal> hola
[19:12] <highvoltage> yes that's today
[19:13] <stgraber> kubuntu is failing for a similar reason, so it's not something we can fix in edubuntu, it's common to all derivatives
[19:14] <stgraber> so, that was for the status of the netbook edition
[19:14] <stgraber> for the live LTSP, I haven't received an answer from cjwatson_ yet and as we don't get a DVD build anyway, it doesn't really help ;)
[19:14] <highvoltage> ok
[19:15] <stgraber> so, that was for the good news ;)
[19:15] <highvoltage> I guess it's also worth mentioning that there's diskless fat client support in LTSP now which will be available in lucid
[19:15] <stgraber> right, that package is actually in Lucid now, so it's already supported
[19:16] <alkisg> highvoltage: can you give us a short intro on how that works?
[19:16] <highvoltage> alkisg: it's a ltsp plugin
[19:16] <alkisg> (behind the scenes...)
[19:16]  * Lns was about to ask the same thing
[19:16] <highvoltage> alkisg: you basically do a --fat-client --fat-client-desktop x/edu/k/u/buntu
[19:17] <highvoltage> alkisg: it basically installs the desktop metapackages and all it's dependencies in the chroot
[19:17] <highvoltage> alkisg: stgraber added to ldm so that if you have a switch set, I think it's FAT_CLIENT = true or something similar in lts.conf
[19:17] <highvoltage> then ldm will load the local session in the chroot
[19:17] <stgraber> yep, that's FAT_CLIENT = True
[19:18] <alkisg> And the user home is mounted with sshfs?
[19:18] <highvoltage> it has some interesting consequences in the sense that you might want to run some apps remotely
[19:18] <highvoltage> alkisg: yes
[19:18] <stgraber> authentication is done using ssh and /home is mounted using sshfs
[19:18] <highvoltage> so it introduces the concept of remote-apps :)
[19:18] <Lns> heh
[19:18] <stgraber> ltsp-remoteapps can be used to start remote applications
[19:18] <Lns> stgraber: so auth doesn't require passwd/group files to sync w/the chroot or anything?
[19:18] <highvoltage> cool, I wasn't quite aware that that has been implemented yet
[19:19] <alkisg> highvoltage: did you try it? How does it "feel"? How much time did it get for a client to boot?
[19:19] <highvoltage> alkisg: it's quite fast, depends mostly on your network speed
[19:19] <highvoltage> alkisg: but even on 100mbps it's quite snappy
[19:19] <stgraber> I'm actually using ltsp-remoteapps at the office with firefox, it's very experimental but for some things, it works
[19:20] <highvoltage> alkisg: obviously you'll need a much better client than with a thin client
[19:20]  * alkisg would like to use that instead of standalone ubuntu installations for newer school labs... :)
[19:20] <alkisg> I'll give it a go as soon as Lucid is workable :-/