[12:31] <veda> hi
[12:31] <veda> is there any localized version of edubuntu in spanish?
[12:32] <ogra> you can install any language post install ...
[12:33] <ogra> we support all languages ubuntu supports
[12:36] <veda> great!
[12:36] <veda> tnx
[12:37] <ogra> if you dont have net access to install the language, try the dvd, it contains all 90 languages :)
[12:38] <veda> :-P
[12:38] <veda> I'll try both
[12:38] <veda> thanks again
[12:38] <ogra> (the CD only contains the english language packs, you need to grab additional langs from the net... not enough space there)
[12:38] <ogra> youre welcome :)
[02:10] <noah> neither the front page nor the faq mentions how edubuntu differs from regular ubuntu... seems like a slightly glaring omission...
[02:11] <noah> "educational software (such as GCompris and the KDE education suite)" -- is that it?
[06:30] <neoandertal> any brazilian here?
[07:31] <cafuego> mornin'!
[07:31] <juliux> morning
[07:31] <cafuego> can anyone tel me how I can tweak screen resolutions for clients?
[09:07] <pc22> shalom davix
[09:11] <highvoltage> morning guys
[09:11] <pc22> hello
[09:11] <pc22> re: broken packages during installation. and wont fix broken packages. do i have to redownload installer?
[09:18] <highvoltage> pc22: did you md5sum check your cd image before burning it?
[09:18] <pc22> no
[09:19] <pc22> how do i do it
[09:19] <highvoltage> it could be that something went wrong with the cd download
[09:19] <highvoltage> did you download to a windows or a linux machine?
[09:19] <highvoltage> in linux you just type "md5sum cdimage.iso"
[09:19] <pc22> windows
[09:19] <pc22> in xp?
[09:19] <highvoltage> i'm not sure how to do it in windows, i think there is information about it on the wiki...
[09:19] <pc22> highvoltage, u using edubuntu?
[09:19] <highvoltage> i'll see if i can find it.
[09:19] <highvoltage> yep.
[09:20] <pc22> cool
[09:20] <pc22> actually my iso is edubuntu
[09:22] <highvoltage> pc22: look at http://wiki.edubuntu.org/Checksum?highlight=%28md5sum%29
[09:23] <highvoltage> there's a link on the bottom of the page to winmd5sum, a program that lets you check ISO's under Windows
[09:24] <pc22> i have a homenetwork
[09:24] <pc22> what can edubuntu do for me? for the kids? ;)
[09:27] <pc22> highvoltage, how do i compare?
[09:35] <highvoltage> sorry, been on phone.
[09:35] <highvoltage> compare the md5sums?
[09:35] <highvoltage> in linux i just type "md5sum filename.iso"
[09:35] <highvoltage> i suppose the windows one will work similar.
[10:16] <pc22> highvoltage its done
[10:16] <pc22> perfect
[10:16] <pc22> now trying to isntall
[12:09] <highvoltage> ogra: hi there. i'm working on some edubuntu documentation for future tuxlab rollout. will the lts.conf file still be fully supported in future versions of ubuntu ltsp?
[12:10] <ogra> sure
[12:10] <ogra> see mdz's changelog, there are a lot more options supported already
[12:11] <ogra> highvoltage, and http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/ relies on lts.conf ;)
[12:11] <highvoltage> excellent!
[12:11] <ogra> (or will, once its implemented)
[12:12] <highvoltage> ogra: is this what you're talking about?
[12:12] <highvoltage> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuLtsConfParams?action=show&redirect=EdubuntuLtsParams
[12:12] <highvoltage> or where can i find mdz's changelog?
[12:12] <ogra> nope, that are the breezy config options we support ...
[12:13] <ogra> in his bzr branch, install bzr and bzrk, then do a bzr viz with his url... wait, have to look it up
[12:15] <highvoltage> ogra: don't worry, i have enought to keep me busy with for now :)
[12:15] <highvoltage> i'll check out bzr again a bit later.
[12:15] <ogra> bzr viz http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/bazaar/ltsp/main/
[12:15] <ogra> thats the command :)
[12:16] <highvoltage> omg, i don't have bzr installed yet
[12:16] <ogra> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/ ./
[12:16] <ogra> grab it from there
[12:17] <ogra> and bzrk ... thats a neat gui
[12:32] <Yagisan> ogra: thanks for the packaging help. the Replaces and dpkg-divert magic worked well :)
[12:32] <ogra> great :)
[12:33] <Yagisan> ogra: the game I was packaging looks *really* good now, with those updates
[12:33] <ogra> great, rhrow it on revu then ;)
[12:33] <ogra> *throw
[12:35] <Yagisan> ogra: I can't :( I need to dfsg the source for revu, and siretart canned the data packs because upstream won't write a license
[12:35] <Yagisan> that says anything other then "non-commercial use only"
[12:35] <ogra> bah
[12:36] <Yagisan> ogra: It's also "not good" to load about 1GB of data packs to revu O:-)
[12:36] <ogra> ugh, 1GB ?
[12:37] <Yagisan> ogra: That's a lot of textures, models - for Doom, Heretic and Hexen
[12:37] <ogra> ah
[12:38] <Yagisan> ogra: The screenshots on my page need to be replaced, it looks better now - I'm doing the hexen updates now, and heretic tommorow
[12:40] <Yagisan> ogra: apparently I've been told in some places eg Germany, that if it isn't explicitly permitted, then it is forbidden
[12:40] <Yagisan> that is why the data packs where rejected
[12:40] <ogra> yup...
[12:41] <Yagisan> where it is opposite here, unless explicitly forbidden, it is permitted
[12:42] <Yagisan> and obviously where upstream for the data packs too (they are mirrored all over the net - but can't be in ubuntu :( )
[12:42] <Yagisan> For kicks, I should try to get it running as a local app
[12:43] <ajmitch_> I think the usual convention is redistribution is forbidden unless otherwise allowed
[12:44] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: Yep, I'm still trying to convince upstream to write a decent license, I don't really want to do a msttcorefonts type package
[12:45] <ajmitch_> the only way stuff can get into multiverse is if we have redistribution, that's not just a special grant to ubuntu
[12:46] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: Most packs have redistribution that isn't a special grant, but I have to get a forum post for it - it's not in a license
[12:46] <ajmitch_> which doesn't cut it
[12:49] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: It's a pain in the neck to have to save the forum post, it really should be in a license file. Anyway hows things going ?
[12:49] <ajmitch_> things are going well enough, how are you?
[12:50] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: I'm very busy, the new baby is taking up lots of time, and my mother-in-law has just been diagnosed with cancer :(
[12:50] <ajmitch_> oh dear :(
[12:51] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: I'm trying to get 1000 paper cranes folded and posted to her as soon as possible
[12:51] <ajmitch_> ouch, good luck
[12:52] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: It's supposed to grant her a wish (at least that's the story), so tomorrow I'm off to get more paper
[12:53] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: It sucks, she's a non-smoker, non-drinker, does everything right, and she still got cancer.
[01:14] <highvoltage> ogra: i get:
[01:14] <highvoltage> W: GPG error: http://people.ubuntu.com ./ Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY B0B7481B1F44842D
[01:14] <highvoltage> how do i import that key into apt again?
[01:14] <highvoltage> or should i just disable the gpg checking
[01:15] <ogra> just igrnore it for now ... it will install anyway and jbailey is ubuntu dev, you can trust him :)
[01:17] <ogra> you can download his key from the keyserver and run: sudo apt-key add <keyfile>
[01:17] <highvoltage> i can't install bzr because of some package problems. my punishment for being on dapper :)
[01:17] <ajmitch_> which problems?
[01:17] <ogra> i'm on dapper too...
[01:17] <ogra> works fine here
[01:17] <highvoltage> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[01:17] <highvoltage>   livesupport-libs: Depends: unixodbc but it is not going to be installed
[01:17] <highvoltage>                     Depends: unixodbc (>= 2.2) but it is not going to be installed
[01:18] <ajmitch_> ah, totaly unrelated to bzr
[01:18] <highvoltage> oh. ok.
[01:23] <Yagisan> ogra: would load balancing or clustering software be of interest to you with edubuntu ? It looks like openmosix has a working 2.6 release now
[01:24] <ogra> not for dapper
[01:24] <Yagisan> ogra: but in general yes ? (I'll mention dapper for requests/suggestions for dapper)
[01:25] <ogra> we havent decided yet if we will include something along this lines ... at ubz we only talke about load balancing cluster solution...
[01:26] <ogra> but if you can provide a working solution that doesnt contain evil kernel patching ....
[01:27] <Yagisan> ogra: :( needs "evil" kernel patching
[01:27] <ogra> i suspected this ...
[01:27] <Yagisan> ogra: but then, the ubuntu kernel looks nothing like vanilla ...
[01:27] <ogra> ask in #ubuntu-kernel how likely it might be that we'll have it in any of our kernel packages
[01:28] <ogra> but we only accept patches that are announced to eventually go upstream afaik
[01:28] <ogra> it might not be vanilla now :)
[01:29] <Yagisan> ogra: oh, then this will never get accepted. linus and openmosix project lead want to keep them separate
[01:33] <Yagisan> oh my god, my 21 month old daughter has worked out how to open the 3 locks on the door to my office
[01:34] <Yagisan> my pc's won't be safe now
[01:49] <juliux> re
[02:01] <highvoltage> i wish i had more time to play with ubuntu ltsp.
[02:01] <jsgotangco> same here
[02:01] <highvoltage> ogra: if you put SCREEN_01=shell with ultsp, do you get a local shell on the terminal like with ltsp.org?
[02:02] <ogra> i think it was 07, but yes ... look in the mailing list, mdz once posted someting about it
[02:19] <lucasvo> hi
[02:28] <juliux> hi lucasvo
[02:44] <highvoltage> ogra: that wiki page said that SWAP_SERVER is implemented but not tested, does that use NBD or NFS?
[02:45] <ogra> highvoltage, there is no nfs swap in kernel 2.6
[02:46] <ogra> so it needs to be NBD :)
[02:48] <highvoltage> aaaah
[02:48] <highvoltage> that explains why ltsp.org still uses 2.4 kernels.
[02:49] <Yagisan> highvoltage: what work are you doing with ltsp ?
[02:50] <ogra> Yagisan, he's Mr. tuXlabs
[02:51] <Yagisan> I see. so will we be seeing some ltsp improvements ?
[02:52] <ogra> highvoltage, ltsp.org uses 2.6 as well in the 4.2 branch
[03:01] <highvoltage> interesting. i think i'll stick with the ubuntu ltsp from now on though ;)
[03:01] <highvoltage> except for the ltsp 4.1 that we'll use until we install dapper in all the schools.
[03:02] <highvoltage> the cool thing is, that gives me a good excuse to work on edubuntu docs in work time :)
[03:02] <highvoltage> but now i need to go home.
[03:03] <highvoltage> bye ogra and Yagisan.
[03:03] <ogra> ciao highvoltage
[03:31] <ogra> Yagisan, oh, btw, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/ltsp/multiarch/
[03:31] <ogra> lets see if mdz accepts it now...
[03:41] <Yagisan> thanks ogra - I was having a very late dinner
[03:42] <Yagisan> G'day mhz
[03:43] <mhz> hey
[03:43] <mhz> how's your in-laws?
[03:43] <Yagisan> mhz: My mother in-law has been diagnosed with cancer :(
[03:43] <mhz> ooops :(
[03:44] <mhz> i'm truly sorry
[03:44] <neurogeek> Yagisan, sorry to hear that
[03:44] <Yagisan> thanks mhz, neurogeek
[03:44] <mhz> how bad?
[03:45] <Yagisan> she got the news 2 days before my son was born, and didn't tell us until my wife was out of the hospital
[03:45] <Yagisan> mhz: I don't know. She has an operation in December
[03:46] <Yagisan> mhz: I'm making 1000 paper cranes for her and I hope to post them as soon as possible
[03:46] <mhz> hmm, I have no clue what to say or do to help
[03:47] <Yagisan> mhz: Japanese think that if you make 1000 paper cranes, you can be granted a wish
[03:48] <Yagisan> mhz, can't even fly there to be with here, because of the newborn baby
[03:48] <Yagisan> s/here/her
[03:49] <SatanGolga> hmm, what the difference between ubuntu and edubuntu, i think they look pretty similar?
[03:50] <ogra> edubuntu is built around LTSP
[03:50] <Yagisan> SatanGolga: (k)(x)(ed)ubuntu are the same system, but with different default configurations
[03:50] <ogra> it adds most of kdeedu and tux4kids to the desktop
[03:50] <ogra> and has different artwork
[03:50] <SatanGolga> aha, ok
[03:51] <SatanGolga> i use ubuntu atm
[03:51] <Yagisan> SatanGolga: It's more targeted at an educational setting, but if you have kids, it's also good for home
[03:52] <SatanGolga> heh, ok
[03:53] <SatanGolga> btw, congrats to the baby :)
[03:53] <Yagisan> SatanGolga, thanks :)
[04:50] <Yagisan> night all
[04:57] <Lord_Athur> hi
[04:57] <Lord_Athur> mhz,
[04:57] <mhz> hi Lord_Athur
[04:57] <Lord_Athur> may I tell you something by query?
[04:58] <mhz> sure
[04:59] <Lord_Athur> mhz, can you say the name of the book about Python?
[04:59] <Lord_Athur> I'd like to buy it
[04:59] <mhz> hmmm, let me look
[05:00] <Lord_Athur> ok
[05:00] <Lord_Athur> hey
[05:00] <mhz> buy it? not download it?
[05:00] <Lord_Athur> download :p
[05:00] <Lord_Athur> hey you have not answer the query yet
[05:00] <Lord_Athur> ...
[05:00] <ogra> its even packaged and installed by default  ;) diveintopython is the name
[05:01] <Lord_Athur> ok
[05:01] <Lord_Athur> thanks
[05:02] <Lord_Athur> mhz, contesta el privado
[05:02] <Lord_Athur> :P
[05:02] <mhz> Lord_Athur: How to Think like a Computer Scientist, Learning with Python
[05:03] <mhz> Lord_Athur: no tengo pregunta tuya a mi url?
[05:03] <Lord_Athur> en tu wiki
[05:03] <mhz> ogra: hehehe
[05:03] <Lord_Athur> mhz en tu wiki?
[05:04] <mhz> Lord_Athur: www.thinkpython.com
[05:05] <mhz> url donde tu pusiste tu summary
[05:05] <Lord_Athur> mhz, ok pero me refera al privado que abr por Xchat
[05:06] <Lord_Athur> que summary?
[05:06] <Lord_Athur> no cacho naa
[05:06] <Lord_Athur> xD
[05:07] <mhz> parece que no nos vemos en query
[05:07] <Lord_Athur> eso creo
[05:07] <Lord_Athur> !!
[05:08] <Lord_Athur> how  can I talk to "bash" (leo)?
[05:08] <mhz> tienes una url para tu summary?
[05:08] <Lord_Athur> la de wiki q te coment no ma
[05:08] <mhz> Lord_Athur: hehehe, ni idea. Podrias mandar un mail a arkan0x, tal vez?
[05:09] <Lord_Athur>
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> ok
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> :)
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> estaba "buena" la cabra argentina
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> :P
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> osea saba arto de distros
[05:09] <mhz> Lord_Athur: se que arkan0x tiene contaxcto regular con bash
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> pero no entend cual es su proyecto
[05:09] <mhz> Lord_Athur: indeed
[05:09] <Lord_Athur> ap ok
[05:10] <mhz> difusion de FLOSS para multimedios (Vj's and Dj's)
[05:10] <Lord_Athur> ap ok
[05:10] <Lord_Athur> debe tener su pgina wiki para leerle ms
[05:11] <Lord_Athur> te la di?
[05:11] <mhz> si tiene, pero no la he buscado aun
[05:11] <mhz> creo que el colectivo se llama 'troyano'
[05:11] <Lord_Athur> ap ok
[05:11] <mhz> y su url deberia incluir .ar
[05:11] <mhz> :d
[05:11] <Lord_Athur> oye
[05:11] <Lord_Athur> abre una ventana de privado para mostrarte algo porfa
[05:12] <Lord_Athur> parece q la tienes deshabilitada
[05:14] <Lord_Athur>
[05:14] <Lord_Athur> mhz, It'd be better if we talk only in Enlgish
[05:14] <Lord_Athur> la otra vez unos gringos se enojaron
[05:14] <Lord_Athur> xD
[05:16] <Lord_Athur> jajaja
[05:17] <Lord_Athur> mhz, did you see my own wiki page?
[05:17] <mhz> Lord_Athur: ok, let's stay tuned in english here
[05:17] <mhz> yup
[05:17] <mhz> and I already gave you some comments in 'query'. Could you see them?
[05:18] <mhz> hakuna matata?
[05:18] <mhz> :)
[05:18] <hakuna> yo guys
[05:18] <mhz> hey
[05:18] <hakuna> greetz
[05:18] <mhz> welcome
[05:19] <hakuna> thx
[05:19] <Lord_Athur> mhz, I cannot see them
[05:19] <mhz> hmmm, weired
[05:19] <Lord_Athur> write the comments in my wiki page
[05:19] <Lord_Athur> :P
[05:19] <mhz> Lord_Athur: sure you have no other windows open but 'tabs' instead?
[05:20] <mhz> Lord_Athur: i'll re open a query
[05:20] <Lord_Athur> I've got in other tab connection with the CL server
[05:20] <mhz> did you get the query?
[05:20] <Lord_Athur> no
[05:21] <Lord_Athur>
[05:21] <Lord_Athur> q lata
[05:21] <mhz> he
[05:21] <Lord_Athur> do I close the tab
[05:21] <Lord_Athur> ?
[05:21] <mhz> Lord_Athur: what irc server do you use? irc.freenode.neT?
[05:21] <mhz> yup
[05:21] <Lord_Athur> mmm
[05:21] <mhz> now?
[05:22] <Lord_Athur> In the server list the server is called "Ubuntu server"
[05:22] <mhz> uh
[05:22] <mhz> more strange
[05:22] <Lord_Athur> it is the same that I used to talk to you the last friday
[05:22] <Lord_Athur> and then we did not have any problems
[05:22] <mhz> indeed
[05:22] <mhz> well, anyways,
[05:22] <mhz> Lord_Athur hice una lista y dej el texto mas abajo por si alguien lo quiere leer
[05:22] <mhz> mhz exacto! bien hecho
[05:22] <mhz> mhz salvo.... los wikis usan CamelCase que es muy util para estandares de buscar paginas faciles de meorizar
[05:22] <mhz> mhz por ende, AlejandroLeon no sera igual a recordar alejandroleonv
[05:23] <mhz> mhz y ademas, si alguien edita una pagaina wiki y quiere qu se linkee a la tuya, escribiria blablablabls AlejandroLeon
[05:23] <mhz> mhz y asi, al guardar su pagina, se crearia el autolink a la tuya :D
[05:23] <ogra> i dont care about pasted content ~5 lines if i can read it :p
[05:23] <Lord_Athur> I will see this details now
[05:24] <Lord_Athur> do I change the wiki page name?
[05:24] <mhz> ogra: thx for your always good understanding ;)
[05:24] <mhz> Lord_Athur: you could 'rename it' with 'MoreActions'
[05:24] <Lord_Athur> ap ok
[05:25] <Lord_Athur> can I write its name with capital letter?
[05:25] <Lord_Athur> the A & L
[05:25] <mhz> my suggestion is: AlejandroLeon
[05:26] <mhz> that is what we call CamelCase
[05:26] <Lord_Athur> I've just downloaded the PDF version of the book
[05:26] <mhz> o LetraCamello
[05:26] <Lord_Athur> ni idea
[05:27] <mhz> ogra: I'd be happy to help with HowToThinkLikeAComputerScientist, Learning with Python from Ubuntu :D
[05:27] <mhz> ogra: i will create the StudyPackages Group in LP. Do i need to be 'listed in memeber list'?
[05:28] <ogra> nope, you only need a LP account afaik
[05:28] <mhz> cool
[05:28] <Lord_Athur> mhz,  look the new name of the wiki page
[05:29] <mhz> Lord_Athur: cool
[05:29] <Lord_Athur> >:P
[05:29] <Lord_Athur> hey
[05:29] <mhz> thx for the effort
[05:29] <Lord_Athur> mhz, my mail account is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:29] <Lord_Athur> si se van a juntar como comunidad
[05:29] <mhz> okis
[05:29] <Lord_Athur> me avisas
[05:29] <Lord_Athur> :P
[05:30] <mhz> por supuesto
[05:30] <Lord_Athur> I've to put the room in order
[05:30] <Lord_Athur> bye everyone
[05:30] <mhz> de hecho, te estare ingresando como mimebro de la ML en castellano, once jdub can create it
[05:30] <mhz> Lord_Athur: c ya later
[05:31] <Lord_Athur>
[05:31] <Lord_Athur> puedes decir en espaol las ltimas 2 lineas?
[05:31] <Lord_Athur> no cache nada
[05:31] <Lord_Athur> xD
[05:31] <mhz> ML = mailing list
[05:31] <Lord_Athur> jajja
[05:32] <Lord_Athur> jejeje ok
[05:32] <Lord_Athur> chau
[06:19] <Lord_Athur> hi everyone
[06:19] <Lord_Athur> I've got a problem
[06:20] <Lord_Athur> i deleted any files and folders
[06:20] <Lord_Athur> abut I cannot delete this from the Trash
[06:22] <Lord_Athur>
[06:22] <Lord_Athur> is there anybody?
[06:24] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: me
[06:24] <mhz_lunch> can you rephrase your prob?
[06:25] <Lord_Athur> I downloaded any source of firefox and gaim
[06:25] <Lord_Athur> when I deleted these files and folders
[06:26] <Lord_Athur> there were not any problems but
[06:26] <Lord_Athur> when I tried of delete this from the trash
[06:26] <Lord_Athur> I could not
[06:26] <Lord_Athur> do you understand???
[06:26] <Lord_Athur> :P
[06:27] <mhz_lunch> ogra: I emailed mako last week about my name not being listed in LP. To me the only big deal here (is not big at all, yet important) is that I included a link to that URL in an article laready sent to a magazine. If i'm not there, then I become a lier :D  Could you ping him somewhere else?
[06:27] <ogra> only on -devel as you did already ....
[06:27] <ogra> he'll anwer as soon as he's around ...
[06:28] <ogra> at least he normaly does
[06:28] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: yup, I understand
[06:28] <mhz_lunch> ogra: okis
[06:28] <Lord_Athur> q hago tonces?
[06:28] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: via command line? podrias?
[06:28] <Lord_Athur> nop
[06:28] <Lord_Athur> osea (esto lo dir en espaol)
[06:29] <Lord_Athur> descargu el cdigo de gaim y firefox, pero no lo pude borrar
[06:29] <Lord_Athur> lo borr con un cdigo (Como root)
[06:29] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: pero podrias hacer $ cd .Trash/
[06:30] <mhz_lunch> y hacer rm -rf en * en ese dir?
[06:30] <Lord_Athur> pero ahora los archivos en la papelera no pueden ser borrados
[06:30] <Lord_Athur> ok
[06:30] <Lord_Athur> es ese el comando???
[06:31] <Lord_Athur> me dice que no es un directorio
[06:31] <Lord_Athur> calmao
[06:32] <Lord_Athur> nop
[06:32] <Lord_Athur> alejandro@N:~$ cd .trash/
[06:32] <Lord_Athur> bash: cd: .trash/: No existe el fichero o el directorio
[06:32] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: $ ls -la .Trash
[06:32] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: .Trash no .trash
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> alejandro@N:~$ cd .Trash/
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> alejandro@N:~/.Trash$ dir
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> a                                firefox_1.0.7-0ubuntu20.dsc  gaim_1.5.0-1ubuntu3.dsc          Projects
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> Artista\ desconocido             firefox_1.0.7.orig.tar.gz    gaim-1.5.0.orig                  SPE\ 0.7.5.calejandro
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> carpeta\ sin\ ttulo             gaim-1.5.0                   gaim_1.5.0.orig.tar.gz           usr
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> config.log                       gaim_1.5.0-1ubuntu3.diff     gaim-devel-1.5.0-0.fc2.i386.rpm  workspace
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> firefox_1.0.7-0ubuntu20.diff.gz  gaim_1.5.0-1ubuntu3.diff.gz  libgaim-remote.so
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> alejandro@N:~/.Trash$
[06:33] <Lord_Athur> me aparecieron de distiontos colores
[06:33] <mhz_lunch> sip, algunos directorios y otros archivos
[06:34] <Lord_Athur> sip
[06:34] <Lord_Athur> Cmo los borro?
[06:34] <mhz_lunch> ahora, simplemente con un $ rm -rf lo_que_desees
[06:34] <Lord_Athur> pero
[06:34] <Lord_Athur> pongo el directotio Trash completo o en el cada archivo?
[06:34] <Lord_Athur> dame un ejemplo
[06:34] <Lord_Athur> :P
[06:35] <mhz_lunch> okis..
[06:35] <mhz_lunch> rm -rf firefox_1.0.7-0ubuntu20.dsc
[06:36] <mhz_lunch> Lord_Athur: despues de escribir rm -rf fire
[06:36] <mhz_lunch> puedes presionar TAB TAB y te autocompletara cn opciones
[06:40] <Lord_Athur> mhz_school,
[06:40] <Lord_Athur> no puedo borrarlos todos
[06:40] <mhz_school> Lord_Athur: $ ls -la *
[06:40] <Lord_Athur> a?
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> root@N:~/.Trash# ls -la
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> total 6340
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> drwx------   2 alejandro alejandro    4096 2005-11-28 14:39 .
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> drwxr-xr-x  39 alejandro alejandro    4096 2005-11-28 14:15 ..
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> -rw-r--r--   1 alejandro alejandro<PHONE_NUMBER>-11-27 14:59 gaim_1.5.0-1ubuntu3.diff
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> -rw-r--r--   1 root      root        35182 2005-09-29 05:55 gaim_1.5.0-1ubuntu3.diff.gz
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> -rw-r--r--   1 root      root          988 2005-09-29 05:55 gaim_1.5.0-1ubuntu3.dsc
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> -rw-r--r--   1 root      root      6117488 2005-08-24 08:50 gaim_1.5.0.orig.tar.gz
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> -rw-r--r--   1 alejandro alejandro<PHONE_NUMBER>-11-27 14:42 gaim-devel-1.5.0-0.fc2.i386.rpm
[06:41] <Lord_Athur> pero ya estoy como root
[06:42] <Lord_Athur> estan siendo usados?????
[06:43] <Lord_Athur> kill?
[06:43] <Lord_Athur> que hago mhz_school ?
[06:46] <Lord_Athur> Is there other Spanish user here?
[06:52] <Lord_Athur> mhz_school,
[06:57] <Lord_Athur>
[07:08] <mhz_school> re
[07:13] <mhz> ogra: COOL! you were ahead! http://umeet.uninet.edu/
[07:14] <mhz> ogra: COOL! you were ahead! http://umeet.uninet.edu/
[07:14] <ogra> whoops
[07:14] <ogra> klicked wrongly :)
[07:14] <ogra> oh, i'm already listed ?
[07:15] <mhz> yup
[07:17] <ogra> JaneW, seen http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2005/english/prog.html ?
[07:19] <mhz> ogra: I am appliying for a talk, too.
[07:19] <ogra> great
[07:19] <mhz> ogra: can I know what you would do yours about?
[07:19] <mhz> so i d not repeat stuff
[07:20] <ogra> edubuntu
[07:20] <mhz> LOL
[07:23] <mhz> ogra: i already read that part. your talk: "about edubuntu"  Do you have something I ckeck so i do not repeat stuff. Mine also covers some aspects of edubuntu, indeed. But is oriented to social areas more than ITC
[07:23] <mhz> ict
[07:23] <ogra> i have no talk yet, but i agreed to talk about all aspects of edubuntu
[07:24] <ogra> i'll write a german talk before the weekend (i speak at linuxtag in essen on saturday evening), i was planning to just translate that one ...
[07:25] <mhz> oh, ok, thx
[07:25] <ogra> i'll make it public once its there ...
[07:26] <Belutz> talking about talk
[07:26] <Belutz> i'm going to give a talk about edubuntu
[07:26] <Belutz> but i'm still confuse what should i present
[07:26] <^eniac^> hi all!
[07:26] <mhz> Belutz: what's on your mind?
[07:27] <Belutz> mhz, the goodness of edubuntu for education for the young human beings
[07:27] <mhz> so what's your doubt?
[07:28] <Belutz> mhz, it's my first time to give a talk
[07:28] <Belutz> mhz, and it's a debian conference
[07:28] <ogra> make a introduction about ubuntu, what it means etc... and then point out the differences that make edubuntu ...
[07:29] <Belutz> ogra, there will be 2 sessions, first about ubuntu and second is edubuntu
[07:29] <ogra> and dont forget to mention that its debian derived ;)
[07:29] <Belutz> ogra, of course :)
[07:29] <ogra> so drop the first part :)
[07:29] <Belutz> ogra, can't drop the first part
[07:30] <ogra> from the edubuntu talk i mean
[07:30] <Belutz> oh i see
[07:30] <Belutz> ogra, what's the benefits of edubuntu compare to skolelinux?
[07:30] <ogra> none ...
[07:30] <ogra> rather compare to k12ltsp
[07:31] <Belutz> the question and answer sessions scares me :(
[07:31] <mhz> Belutz: when will this be?
[07:31] <ogra> skolelinux targets the enterprise/municipality ...
[07:31] <Belutz> mhz, desember 3rd, in University of Indonesia. RMS will be the guest speaker via teleconference
[07:31] <Belutz> ogra, i see
[07:31] <ogra> we only provide an option for k12ltsp users yet ... it will take some time until we can provide something to skole users
[07:32] <mhz> Belutz: then please do mention Gnu/Linux :D
[07:32] <ogra> at least 1-3 releases
[07:32] <Belutz> mhz, of course :D
[07:32] <ogra> please dont
[07:32] <mhz> ?
[07:32] <Belutz> why?
[07:32] <ogra> not at a debian conference ...
[07:32] <Belutz> hmm, ok
[07:32] <ogra> because you will be dragged into political discussions if you start this
[07:33] <ogra> be careful with the political stuff ...
[07:33] <ogra> we are not bound to gnu with edubuntu ...
[07:33] <ogra> there could also be a edubuntu with bds or solaris kernel
[07:33] <ogra> *bsd
[07:33] <Belutz> ogra, why edubuntu use gnome instead of kde?
[07:34] <Belutz> *by default
[07:34] <Belutz> or there will be kedubuntu? :p
[07:34] <ogra> because i'm all alone with development and can make use of the strength of the ubuntu team for gnome
[07:34] <ogra> nope, kedubuntu isnt planned ... that would have to be a community driven project
[07:34] <Belutz> ogra, i see, so that's ok to give them a reason like that?
[07:35] <ogra> +abut its trivial to install kubuntu-desktop on edubuntu
[07:35] <ogra> s/+abut/but
[07:35] <ogra> additionally i dont have any clue about KDE :)
[07:35] <mhz> hehehe
[07:35] <Belutz> hehehe
[07:36] <mhz> if RMS is there... sure you'll get some political discussion :)
[07:36] <ogra> and kubuntu is also mainly developed by only one person... so i couldnt grab ressources there
[07:36] <Belutz> mhz, i will try to avoid it
[07:36] <mhz> wise
[07:39] <Belutz> i'll ask a lot more to you later ogra :)
[07:40] <ogra> thats fine ... will repare me for my talks ;)
[07:40] <ogra> *prepare
[07:40] <Belutz> :)
[07:43] <mhz> Belutz: and if you can wiki your talk, educooler
[07:44] <Belutz> mhz, i will, i'll upload the slides
[07:44] <mhz> thx
[07:44] <Belutz> :)
[07:59] <mhz> ogra: juliux: not traced text for SVG files uploaded
[07:59] <mhz> juliux: those are CD versions
[07:59] <mhz> for x86
[07:59] <ogra> nice
[07:59] <mhz> ogra: we kept x86 version based on what you think
[07:59] <ogra> fine ...
[08:00] <ogra> i'm not strictly against changing it, but if you change any texts, please discuss it on the mailing list first ...
[08:00] <mhz> juliux: as soon as I can finish edubuntu invitations (for school talk/demo), I'll work on the diff AMD and PPC, plus one DVD version
[08:01] <mhz> ogra: i know. but so far, we needed to kill that 'to do' and as those texts are now 100% editable... anyonce can do it :)
[08:01] <ogra> ok
[08:11] <Lord_Athur> hi
[08:15] <juliux> mhz, thanks a lot
[08:15] <mhz> yw, juliux
[08:15] <mhz> Lord_Athur: regrese
[08:15] <juliux> at first hi mhz
[08:15] <mhz> Lord_Athur: sorry I had to leave
[08:16] <mhz> juliux: yup, hi, :D
[08:16] <Lord_Athur> mhz,
[08:16] <Lord_Athur> do not worry
[08:16] <Lord_Athur> I delete everything in the trash
[08:16] <Lord_Athur> :P
[08:16] <mhz> Lord_Athur: some of your files were not possible to be deleted by you
[08:17] <mhz> because they were root's
[08:17] <mhz> to rm -rf root permision files, you need to do:
[08:17] <mhz> a) sudo rm -rf the_files
[08:17] <Lord_Athur> or enter as root
[08:17] <Lord_Athur> :p
[08:17] <Lord_Athur> thanks mhz
[08:17] <mhz> yup
[08:17] <mhz> ok
[08:17] <mhz> you knew that?
[08:17] <Lord_Athur> + o -
[08:18] <mhz> ahh?
[08:18] <mhz> ok
[08:18] <Lord_Athur> mas o menos
[08:18] <Lord_Athur> xD
[08:19] <Lord_Athur> mhz,
[08:19] <Lord_Athur> I've put in the wiki page the things that I think, and maybe someone will read it, but
[08:19] <Lord_Athur> How can I express my "opini"?
[08:20] <Lord_Athur> digo opinin
[08:20] <Lord_Athur> :p
[08:20] <mhz> en que sentido?
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> osea
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> yo quiero aportar ideas
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> decir cosas
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> y todo
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> mientras aprendo a programar
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> Cmo lo hago=?
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> como me meto a la comunidad
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> ?
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> Qu tengo q  hacer para llegar a decidir cosas?
[08:21] <mhz> ejemplo, por fa.
[08:21] <Lord_Athur> etc
[08:22] <Lord_Athur> mira
[08:22] <Lord_Athur> tengo un PC como el pik..
[08:22] <Lord_Athur> y con GNOMe no me funciona bn
[08:22] <Lord_Athur> me gasta mucho recurso
[08:22] <Lord_Athur> y creo q todos los estudiantes deben tener (si tienen PCs) "no buenos"
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> y por ende Edubuntu no sirve
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> osea
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> no me sirve
[08:23] <mhz> ah, para eso estan las listas
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> Cmo le digo a alguien que cambien algunos programas como OPENOFFICE.org por otros?
[08:23] <mhz> Lord_Athur: talk to ogra
[08:23] <mhz> in IRC
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> o que usen Xfce (es super choro)
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> oki
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> but
[08:23] <Lord_Athur> who is ogra?
[08:24] <mhz> what I do is I do not install edubuntu (all)
[08:24] <mhz> I install 'server', then I apt-get install edubuntu-server
[08:25] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:25] <Lord_Athur> but who is ogra?
[08:25] <ogra> ?
[08:25] <Lord_Athur> is he spanish?
[08:25] <ogra> nope
[08:25] <Lord_Athur> is part of the edubuntu comunity?
[08:25] <Lord_Athur> or
[08:25] <Lord_Athur> only a developer?
[08:26] <ogra> only a developer
[08:26] <ogra> *g*
[08:26] <Lord_Athur> *g*??
[08:26] <ogra> *grin*
[08:26] <Lord_Athur> a qued clarito
[08:26] <Lord_Athur> xD
[08:26] <Lord_Athur> ok ogra
[08:26] <ogra> i built edubuntu ....
[08:26] <mhz> Lord_Athur: ogra is Mr.Edubuntu
[08:26] <Lord_Athur> ap ok
[08:27] <Lord_Athur> bakn
[08:27] <Lord_Athur> :P
[08:28] <Lord_Athur> then ogra how can I give to the edubuntu team the thing that I think?
[08:28] <Lord_Athur> mhz,
[08:28] <Lord_Athur> el wn no me va a enternder
[08:28] <Lord_Athur> digo entender
[08:28] <mhz> Lord_Athur: he will
[08:28] <Belutz> ogra, do you have the .odp file of the edubuntu_talk.pdf you gave me before?
[08:28] <ogra> nope
[08:28] <Lord_Athur> xD
[08:28] <ogra> Belutz, sadly my openoffice is totally broken ...
[08:28] <Belutz> ogra, ok :)
[08:29] <mhz> Lord_Athur: this channel is to discuss how we want edubuntu to be
[08:29] <ogra> he only thing i could save was the pfd between two breakages
[08:29] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:29] <mhz> Lord_Athur: so whatever your ideas are, give them here
[08:29] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:29] <Belutz> wow it's 2.30 am
[08:29] <ogra> or on the edubuntu mailing list
[08:29] <mhz> Lord_Athur: or to the ML
[08:29] <Lord_Athur> what is it?
[08:29] <ogra> it has a wider audience
[08:30] <Lord_Athur> give me the web page to add my mail to the mailing list
[08:30] <ogra> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel
[08:30] <Lord_Athur> thanks
[08:30] <mhz> Lord_Athur: subscribe<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:30] <mhz> Lord_Athur: subscribe to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:30] <Lord_Athur> from...?
[08:30] <mhz> Lord_Athur: from?
[08:30] <ogra> just use the webpage
[08:31] <Lord_Athur> ok ogra
[08:32] <mhz> Lord_Athur: however, even when I understand your conerns about GNOME for Chilean educational  PCs, it is GNOME because ogra  is the one working on building this.
[08:32] <ogra> not really
[08:32] <ogra> we had a summit where gnome was decided ...
[08:32] <Lord_Athur> who decided it?
[08:32] <mhz> maybe if he could have more help from devel guys (probably you) we would have more options
[08:33] <ogra> the ~30 people at the summit
[08:33] <Lord_Athur> who can they decide?
[08:33] <mhz> ogra: I know about the summit. I almost cut a leg to be there :D
[08:33] <ogra> we had a lot teachers and school admins as well as people from other edu distros there
[08:33] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:33] <Lord_Athur> what may I do for to be a member?
[08:33] <ogra> we'll have another one for dapper+1
[08:34] <mhz> Lord_Athur: as I know we have a very Latinamerican diff, we could work on a community project to develop a light edubuntu
[08:34] <Lord_Athur> mhz, q es dapper+1?
[08:34] <Lord_Athur> yes
[08:34] <Lord_Athur> mhz, I think I'd be the best
[08:34] <ogra> since this release wont change much (we have to support it for 5 years, so only polishing is allowed) we didnt think it would make sense to have another one for dapper
[08:34] <mhz> Lord_Athur: however, lighter desktop is not difficult if you just do not install GNOME and choose windowmaker or other desktop
[08:35] <mhz> Lord_Athur: you 'are a member' when you participate
[08:35] <mhz> in IRC and ML
[08:35] <Lord_Athur> to build or own distro for education (one for latinamerican education) is a good idea
[08:35] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:35] <mhz> yup, but not a good idea to disperse efforts
[08:36] <mhz> so, I propose to you we help here,
[08:36] <Lord_Athur> for that I want to give ideas for edubuntu
[08:36] <mhz> we motivate more people needing lighter desktop integration with edubuntu
[08:37] <mhz> and we help ogra integrate our contribution to his
[08:37] <Lord_Athur> ogra, how much time does the ML page need to send a mail to the mail?
[08:37] <Lord_Athur> I've registered my mail
[08:37] <mhz> Lord_Athur: just few seconds
[08:37] <mhz> maybe q minute
[08:37] <ogra> it sends a confirmation mail to you immediately
[08:37] <Lord_Athur> but I have not recived anything
[08:37] <mhz> you will
[08:37] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:37] <mhz> Lord_Athur: which @mail?
[08:38] <Lord_Athur> gmail
[08:38] <mhz> gmail i guess?
[08:38] <Lord_Athur> guess?
[08:38] <mhz> not the egyptian thing?
[08:38] <Lord_Athur> q es eso en espaol?
[08:38] <mhz> usaste gmail, creo?
[08:38] <Lord_Athur> si
[08:38] <Lord_Athur> pero
[08:38] <Lord_Athur> no me llega la confirmacin
[08:38] <mhz> hmmm
[08:39] <mhz> Lord_Athur: I am trying to reach jdub, a guy who could provide us with a ML in spanish
[08:39] <Lord_Athur> maybe
[08:39] <Lord_Athur> gmail saved it in other folder
[08:39] <mhz> so far, I have not contacted him successfully
[08:39] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:39] <Lord_Athur> I'd be better
[08:39] <mhz> sip!
[08:39] <ogra> mhz, he has no online connection yet, he just moved house
[08:40] <ogra> try to mail him
[08:40] <mhz> I know many teachrs and students I have talked about edubuntu do not want to collaborate because they are afraid of english
[08:40] <mhz> ogra: duh!
[08:40] <mhz> yes, I remember
[08:40] <mhz> now
[08:40] <mhz> you mentioned that to me last week
[08:40] <Lord_Athur> afraid?
[08:40] <Lord_Athur> q es eso?
[08:41] <mhz> Lord_Athur: afraid= temerosos
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> ok
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> yo soy afraid para el ingls
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> pq soy malo en eso
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> saq 5.4
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> xD
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> final anual
[08:41] <Lord_Athur> :S
[08:41] <mhz> ogra: sorry to forget stuff
[08:42] <ogra> dont worry, happens to everybody ;)
[08:42] <mhz> Lord_Athur: your english is not bad
[08:42] <Lord_Athur>
[08:42] <ogra> absolutely not
[08:42] <Lord_Athur> my theacher does not think so
[08:42] <Lord_Athur> well
[08:42] <mhz> Lord_Athur: the most important thing is you're making an effort
[08:42] <Lord_Athur> yes
[08:42] <ogra> its good enough that i can understand it as a german ...
[08:42] <Lord_Athur> :P
[08:43] <mhz> teachers tend to evaluate other stuff over the real effort to 'communicate'. I can speak english or any language with "hands" and "drawings".
[08:43] <mhz> that needs to be evaluated as well
[08:44] <mhz> Lord_Athur: plus, you are still in school, so wait a couple of months helping here and you'll feel your english is much better
[08:44] <Lord_Athur> yes
[08:44] <Lord_Athur> :P
[08:44] <Lord_Athur> and I love her
[08:45] <Lord_Athur> I did not need to say that
[08:45] <Lord_Athur> jajjaa
[08:45] <Lord_Athur> ogra,
[08:45] <mhz> if not, ask juliux (he's german too) and he used to complain his english sucked (i didnt think so). Now his english seems to be lot betta, right ogra?
[08:45] <ogra> yup
[08:45] <mhz> :D
[08:45] <ogra> noticeable
[08:45] <juliux> mhz, now you can understand what i mean
[08:45] <mhz> LOL
[08:45] <lucasvo> this keyboardlayout is crap, it doesn't work :(
[08:45] <Lord_Athur> I haven't recived my notification of the ML yet!
[08:46] <mhz> juliux: not really! but your grammar is excellent! :D
[08:46] <juliux> mhz, what should i say now?
[08:46] <mhz> that you are happy to be here trying to understand Chilean sense of humour!
[08:46] <ogra> Lord_Athur, i havent seen your subscription notification either yet ... (i get a copy if people subscribe)
[08:47] <mhz> ooops
[08:47] <Lord_Athur> ogra, what does this mean?
[08:47] <ogra> just wait a moment... probably the listservers are just busy
[08:47] <mhz> juliux: i hope you have sense of humour. One of the german guys I used to IRC a lot was xorAxAx (#moin channel). his houmour was excellent!
[08:47] <Lord_Athur> maybe
[08:47] <Lord_Athur> :S
[08:48] <Lord_Athur> I've to go
[08:48] <juliux> mhz, sure i understand it
[08:48] <Lord_Athur> :S
[08:48] <Lord_Athur> bye
[08:48] <mhz> Lord_Athur: c ya
[08:48] <ogra> bye
[08:48] <mhz> juliux: cool
[08:48] <Lord_Athur> :)
[08:48] <juliux> mhz, atm i have do some work here
[08:49] <mhz> okis
[08:49] <mhz> np
[08:49] <juliux> mhz, so i cann't chat very much
[08:50] <mhz> i see
[08:50] <mhz> actually, I shouldn't be chatting either but i am too irresponsible
[08:55] <mhz_design> ogra: should we encourage people not to design thise or we are ok. http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21314645/    http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/18687643/   http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21548673/   http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21808983/
[08:56] <ogra> i'm not sure if half naked girls are really what we want :)
[08:56] <mhz_design> i mean, from our Coduct of Conduct, we should try to help others not to.
[08:56] <mhz_design> :)
[08:56] <mhz_design> ogra: you mean either clothes off or dont design them?
[08:57] <ogra> thats nothing for edubuntu
[08:57] <ogra> and ubuntu already had its flamewars about naked people
[08:57] <mhz_design> ok
[08:58] <mhz_design> http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/18840276/  is that germany?
[08:58] <ogra> why do you think its called CCCP then ?
[08:58] <mhz_design> duh!
[08:59] <ogra> :)
[08:59] <mhz_design> hadn't read it, just looked at it
[08:59] <mhz_design> :)
[09:11] <ajmitch_> morning
[09:16] <mhz_design> Belutz: check this for your talk http://www.deviantart.com/view/18841400/
[09:16] <mhz_design> ajmitch_: morning
[09:17] <Belutz> mhz_design, thanks :)
[09:17] <mhz_design> you should have accpetance by debian people when they see that
[09:25] <^eniac^> hi all!
[09:27] <^eniac^> Spacey, can i use the "apt-get source" command for "deb" packets?
[09:30] <^eniac^> eniac@eniac-linux:~> apt-get source /windows/D/eniac/projects/edubg/alevt/alevt                        1.6.1+kanotix3.diff.gz
[09:30] <^eniac^> Reading Package Lists... Done
[09:30] <^eniac^> Building Dependency Tree... Done
[09:30] <^eniac^> E: You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list
[09:30] <^eniac^> why?
[09:31] <^eniac^> the same error is for the deb packets...
[09:32] <mhz_design> ogra: I am starting a mail to jdub about ML
[09:32] <ogra> ok
[09:32] <mhz_design> ogra: I am bit lost..
[09:32] <ogra> why ? just request a list ...
[09:33] <mhz_design> ogra: should I request for a edubuntu-cl or edubuntu-la or edubuntu-es?
[09:33] <ogra> jdub is a nice guy, dont be worried
[09:33] <mhz_design> or we could have all linked together?
[09:33] <ogra> i think either -es or -cl
[09:33] <ogra> i think -es makes most sense, it covers all spanish speaking people
[09:33] <mhz_design> yup
[09:33] <mhz_design> so, es will be.
[09:34] <ogra> ^eniac^, you need to tell apt where the source packages are ... a deb is not a source package, its a binary
[09:35] <^eniac^> oooooooooooo
[09:35] <^eniac^> :-)
[09:35] <ogra> a source package is made of 3 parts ...
[09:35] <ogra> a .dsc file, a diff.gz file and a orig.tar.gz file
[09:35] <^eniac^> I am LAMER with mostly L!
[09:36] <ogra> the orig.tar.gz file contains the source as you would download it from for example sourceforge ...
[09:36] <^eniac^> ok
[09:36] <ogra> the diff.gz file contains the packaging info to make a deb out of the soure
[09:36] <^eniac^> I have and other packets...
[09:37] <^eniac^> I am LAMER with mostly L!
[09:37] <ogra> and the dsc file contains the info which orig.tar.gz and dsc files belong together to build  adeb
[09:37] <ogra> *a deb
[09:38] <ogra> look at http://packages.ubuntu.com ,search for any package, scroll down to the bottom if you are at the package page ... there you'll find these 3 files
[09:39] <ogra> ^eniac^, see the bottom of this page for example: http://packages.ubuntu.com/breezy/x11/alevt
[09:39] <^eniac^> i have other resource, but w will download also from this...
[09:39] <ogra> especially the line starting: "Source Package: alevt, Download:"
[09:39] <^eniac^> http://kanotix.com/files/debian/
[09:41] <ogra> you cant use this with apt ...
[09:41] <^eniac^> why?
[09:41] <^eniac^> i am beginner, sorry...
[09:41] <^eniac^> I am stupid...
[09:41] <ogra> because apt works with repository, the above is not a repository
[09:42] <ogra> for apt you need to uncomment the deb-src lines in /etc/apt/sources.list
[09:43] <ogra> then just do: apt-get source alevt
[09:43] <ogra> it will download and unpack the source package for you in the current dir ...
[09:44] <ogra> then you just can do: cd alevt-1.6.1 and work on the source
[09:45] <ogra> oh, and after changing the sources.list file you need to run: sudo apt-get update, so apt knows you changed something
[09:45] <^eniac^> 10x
[09:48] <ogra> if you want to work manually with the three files i explained above (without using apt) , install the package dpkg-dev, then you can download the three files and run: dpkg-source -x alevt_1.6.1-7.dsc in the dir the files are ... it will unpack it for you and you can again do cd alevt-1.6.1
[09:49] <^eniac^> i wand to make one distro
[09:49] <^eniac^> but I am beginner...
[09:49] <ogra> a whole distro ?
[09:50] <^eniac^> no, with graphic interface and education programs
[09:50] <^eniac^> education distribution for bulgarian stufents and schools...
[09:51] <ogra> so you just want to change the selection of software ?
[09:52] <^eniac^> yes, and i also want to translate the software...
[09:55] <ogra> did you conside to just tweak ubuntu/edubuntu to your needs ?
[09:58] <ogra> rosetta offers a nice interface for translators ....
[09:58] <ogra> and tweaking a ubuntu/edubuntu CD is very easy
[09:59] <mhz_design> ^eniac^: what features would that distro have?
[10:00] <ogra> ^eniac^, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallCDCustomizationHowTo
[10:00] <^eniac^> I don't have pereferendces: ubuntu/edubuntu/debian ot knoppix
[10:03] <ogra> use this customization howto above and just submit your translations for the packages you want in your distro
[10:03] <ogra> thats way easier than learning how to make a complete distro on your own
[10:04] <ogra> ^eniac^, https://launchpad.net/rosetta
[10:04] <^eniac^> 10x for the link!
[10:05] <^eniac^> for the links
[10:05] <ogra> :)
[10:06] <mhz_design> .oO(ogra is Mr. Edubuntu 10x)
[10:06] <^eniac^> Yes
[10:07] <mhz_design> ogra: you'll need a wider biz card
[10:07] <mhz_design> or your last names will not fit
[10:07] <mhz_design> :D
[10:07] <ogra> but not even me would be able to build a whole distro on my own ... :)
[10:07] <mhz_design> .oO(ogra is Mr. Edubuntu 9x)
[10:07] <mhz_design> hehehe
[10:07] <^eniac^> ehehhe
[10:07] <ogra> *g*
[11:19] <Lord_Athur> Hi
[11:20] <Lord_Athur> ogra
[11:20] <Lord_Athur> hello
[11:22] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: i
[11:22] <Lord_Athur> hey
[11:23] <Lord_Athur> is free to get a canonical mail account?
[11:24] <Lord_Athur> I'd like to have one
[11:24] <Lord_Athur> jajjaa
[11:24] <Lord_Athur> :P
[11:24] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: me too :D
[11:24] <mhz_design> I guess/suppose you have to show contribution to ubuntu
[11:25] <mhz_design> and that means more than "willing to contribute" but "contributing in real"
[11:25] <Lord_Athur> yes
[11:25] <Lord_Athur> you are right
[11:26] <Lord_Athur> mhz_design, si me equivoco en alguna cosa de ingls, me dices porfa
[11:26] <Lord_Athur> :P
[11:26] <Lord_Athur> mhz_design, tell me
[11:27] <mhz_design> np
[11:27] <Lord_Athur> tell me your plain
[11:28] <mhz_design> plain?
[11:28] <Lord_Athur> well
[11:28] <Lord_Athur> you asked to me
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> about what I want to do
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> I've supposed you'd tell me something
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> any project to participate
[11:30] <Lord_Athur> or anything similar
[11:30] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: in a few minutes, I hope you can join EdubuntuChile team in launchpad or EdubuntuStudyContent
[11:30] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: but dont do it now because i'm having some problems
[11:31] <mhz_design> with launchpad group creation
[11:31] <Lord_Athur> ok
[11:31] <Lord_Athur> thanks
[11:32] <mhz_design> np
[11:32] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: you could start rviewing the edubuntu pages in the wiki
[11:33] <mhz_design> search for all pages starting with Edubuntu....
[11:33] <Lord_Athur> yes
[11:33] <Lord_Athur> I'm in it
[11:34] <mhz_design> basically now, EdubuntuSoftwareList (not gnome forced :D ) needs to know if you can use it spanish
[11:35] <mhz_design> ogra: I have created EdubuntuChile and EdubuntuStudyContent in LP, unsuccessfully. Sure I don't need to be approved as member?
[11:37] <Lord_Athur> mhz_design,  no entend la ltima linea que me escribistes
[11:37] <Lord_Athur> escribiste
[11:38] <ogra> mhz_design, sorry, i'm about to go to bed ... https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-chile looks ok to me
[11:38] <mhz_design> EdubuntuSoftwareList necesita 2 cosas: traduccion al castellano y verificar que funcionen en castellano
[11:38] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-study-content too
[11:38] <Lord_Athur> ok
[11:39] <mhz_design> ogra: ok, but I get errors when I am request to confirm that I am the one who wants to create them
[11:40] <Lord_Athur> what's the official page of Edubuntusofwarelist?
[11:40] <ogra> oh and for EdubuntuSoftwareList, you dont need to list khelpcenter ...
[11:40] <ogra> its ony there because the other apps dont work without it
[11:40] <mhz_design> ogra: ok
[11:41] <Lord_Athur> mhz_design,
[11:41] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: ? por que preguntas?
[11:41] <Lord_Athur> me dijiste
[11:41] <Lord_Athur> que revisara
[11:41] <Lord_Athur> y quisiera empezar por all
[11:41] <ogra> kmessedwords was renamed recently and glife had to be dropped because of gtk1
[11:41] <mhz_design> si pero porque preguntas si es oficial?
[11:41] <ogra> so it will change a bit for dapper
[11:41] <Lord_Athur> no, me refera a la pag
[11:41] <mhz_design> ogra: good to know that
[11:42] <Lord_Athur> no, me refera a la pag osea al enlace
[11:42] <mhz_design> ahhh
[11:42] <Lord_Athur> es que ando leyendo las pag de wiki con ttulos de edubuntu
[11:42] <Lord_Athur> y estoy aqui
[11:42] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: todos los CamelloCaseCamello se refieren a que estan en el wiki
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> que es camellocasecamello?
[11:43] <mhz_design> si usas el nombre de la pagina tal cual te la doy y la pones despues de wiki.edubuntu.org/
[11:43] <mhz_design> daras con la pagina
[11:43] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: mala memoria tienes
[11:43] <mhz_design> recuerdas cuando hablamos de AlejandroLeon
[11:44] <mhz_design> en vez de alejandroleon
[11:44] <mhz_design> ?>
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> sip
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> :P
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> que distraido fui
[11:45] <mhz_design> ok, wiki, lo que usamos en edubuntu y otros sitios, usan PalabraPalabra para definir una URL
[11:45] <mhz_design> de este modo, es mucho mas facil acordarse en vez de ~56/%er%^ simbolos y numeros
[11:46] <Lord_Athur> entiendo y se todo eso, pero
[11:46] <Lord_Athur> an no entiendo que tiene q ver la palabra camellocase...
[11:46] <Lord_Athur> :P
[11:47] <mhz_design> ah, porque imaginate un camello con joroba :D
[11:47] <mhz_design> AlejandroLeon
[11:47] <mhz_design> MauricioHernandez
[11:47] <mhz_design> ArribaAbajo
[11:47] <mhz_design> MayuculaMinuscula
[11:47] <mhz_design> etc
[11:48] <Lord_Athur> jajajajaja
[11:48] <Lord_Athur> estoy leyendo los wiki de ttulo eduntu
[11:48] <Lord_Athur> :D
[11:48] <Lord_Athur> con camellos y todo
[11:48] <Lord_Athur> xD
[11:49] <Lord_Athur> estoy en la lista de software
[11:51] <Lord_Athur> pero la pag de EdubuntuChile no existe al parecer
[11:54] <mhz_design> ?
[11:54] <mhz_design> cual?
[11:54] <Lord_Athur> EdubuntuChile
[11:54] <mhz_design> cual?
[11:54] <mhz_design> url
[11:54] <ogra> note that launchpad doesnt use wiki format
[11:54] <Lord_Athur> sipo
[11:54] <Lord_Athur> camello
[11:54] <Lord_Athur> !!
[11:54] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-chile
[11:54] <Lord_Athur> ap
[11:54] <mhz_design> ogra: yup, I know
[11:54] <Lord_Athur> ok ogra
[11:55] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: como te dije... wiki.edubuntu.org/ ahi pones los camellos :)
[11:55] <mhz_design> no en LP
[11:55] <ogra> mhz_design, and i see nothing wrong with the team, you obviously own it and will be able to change everything
[11:55] <Lord_Athur> sip
[11:56] <Lord_Athur> can I login in this page mhz_design ?
[11:56] <mhz_design> ogra: okis, i'm in #launchpad now, just in case there are some probs for people trying to join
[11:56] <mhz_design> ogra: np, I can handle it, go to bed! :D
[11:56] <ogra> night then :)
[11:56] <mhz_design> ogra: sleep with eeduangels
[11:56] <Lord_Athur> can I login in this page (https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-chile)mhz_design ?
[11:57] <mhz_design> sure, join
[11:57] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-chile/+join ;)
[11:57] <mhz_design> LOL!!!
[11:57] <Lord_Athur> xD
[11:57] <mhz_design> ogra: can't help helping
[11:57] <Lord_Athur> pero no saba se lo habas habilitao po mhz_design, me dijiste q estabas en eso
[11:57] <Lord_Athur>
[11:57] <ogra> i'm really gone now :)
[11:58] <mhz_design> np
[11:58] <mhz_design> ogra: don't go :D
[11:58] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: aun estoy en eso
[11:58] <Lord_Athur> ap ok
[11:58] <Lord_Athur> vale
[11:58] <mhz_design> Lord_Athur: no me preguntaste si estaba listo, solo si podias
[11:58] <mhz_design> :D
[11:58] <Lord_Athur> np
[11:59] <Lord_Athur> :P


[06:09] <tvoss> alf_, ping
[06:10] <alf_> tvoss: pong
[07:19] <hikiko> hi :)
[07:21] <sil2100> Morning
[07:21] <hikiko> question: although there's a libmirclient in the repos from what I see mir trunk is one cmake project (client and server are not separate) is this true? (I am not so familiar to cmake and maybe I'm wrong) actually, I am trying to configure cmake to use a mir backend so I wonder if I have to link to mirclient library or add the client source files in the CMakeLists... :)
[07:22] <didrocks> hey sil2100, how was your week-end?
[07:24] <tvoss> hikiko, you should link to the client library
[07:25] <duflu> hikiko: Depend on dev package libmirclient-dev, binary package libmirclient0, and just link to libmirclient
[07:25] <duflu> hikiko: Though I'm not sure if the Mir source is set up to export CMake packages yet...
[07:25] <duflu> Hmm
[07:29] <hikiko> i think it isn't duflu but I am not sure
[07:29]  * duflu checks
[07:29] <hikiko> tvoss, you mean the system library?
[07:30] <tvoss> hikiko, system library?
[07:32] <duflu> hikiko: No we don't have/install a native CMake package. We do however install pkgconfig files. You can import the "mirclient" pkgconfig module into CMake via http://www.cmake.org/cmake/help/v2.8.8/cmake.html#module:FindPkgConfig
[07:33] <hikiko> tvoss, i mean the libmirclient that is installed in the system
[07:33] <tvoss> hikiko, exactly, if you are working outside the mir source tree
[07:34] <duflu> hikiko: pkg_search_module(MIRCLIENT REQUIRED mirclient)
[07:34] <hikiko> tvoss, I am woking on the mir server so, I have to use the libmirclient of the same branch I guess
[07:34] <duflu> and then refer to the magic variables MIRCLIENT_* (http://www.cmake.org/cmake/help/v2.8.8/cmake.html#module:FindPkgConfig)
[07:34] <sil2100> didrocks: hi! Too short ;) How about yours?
[07:34] <hikiko> thank you duflu :D but this will use the installed libmirclient?
[07:35] <didrocks> sil2100: same, too short :) still a little bit exhausted by last week
[07:35] <didrocks> but otherwise good :)
[07:35] <hikiko> mmm if I run make install in the client that wont be a problem
[07:36] <tvoss> hikiko, yup, then you shouldn't link against the installed one
[07:36] <sil2100> didrocks: at least we were able to release everything \o/
[07:36] <duflu> hikiko: Or just depend on debian package (libmirclient-dev)
[07:36] <didrocks> sil2100: exactly! so I feel more relaxed now :)
[07:37] <didrocks> sil2100: I wanted to ask you if you don't mind taking the apps stack still today for the time robru will need to catch up on his emails? :)
[07:37] <sil2100> didrocks: no problem ;)
[07:37] <hikiko> hmmm thanks duflu but this is to link with the installed client library, in my case I am trying to do something on the server using the client library
[07:37] <sil2100> didrocks: I'm poking people right now already
[07:37] <didrocks> sil2100: that, + the new components we will put under dailies today? (You reviewed them with Mirv, right?)
[07:37] <didrocks> sil2100: excellent, thanks!
[07:37] <hikiko> is there any way to link with the client of the same branch?
[07:38] <hikiko> (except of including the files)
[07:38] <duflu> hikiko: "same branch" as what?
[07:38] <sil2100> didrocks: all branches have been reviewed and merged in, so we should be able to redeploy stacks to get them daily released - but should I prepare needs-packaging bugs for the new packages?
[07:39] <didrocks> sil2100: no need for needs-packaging bug. This is more to ask for someone to package it :)
[07:40] <didrocks> sil2100: so yeah, just a MP with those, I'll prereview for NEWing before acking it
[07:40] <didrocks> (MP for putting them under daily release)
[07:40] <Mirv> yep, all reviewed
[07:40] <sil2100> didrocks: ACK, although I saw that someone already added at least 2 of the new packages to the stacks last week, without re-deploying of course
[07:40] <didrocks> Mirv: sweetness! be prepared, I think we'll have more soon :)
[07:40] <duflu> hikiko: To use the client of your own local build you can export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=<mir_install_dir>/lib and then  pkg_search_module(MIRCLIENT REQUIRED mirclient)
[07:41] <sil2100> didrocks: like dbus-cpp and location-service to platform stack
[07:41] <didrocks> sil2100: ah, mind preparing me a list? Will be easier for my little brain :) (or a comment in the MP)
[07:41] <sil2100> didrocks, Mirv: (but let's move that to -desktop) ;)
[07:41] <duflu> where you previously cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=<mir_install_dir> .. ; make ; make doc ; make install
[07:41] <didrocks> sil2100: nice idea :)
[07:42] <hikiko> oh, i see duflu, thanks a lot!( duflu and tvoss :D)
[08:25] <hikiko> duflu, ping
[08:25] <duflu> hikiko, pong
[08:26] <hikiko> I have another cmake question, if you could help.. :)
[08:26] <hikiko> in the client CMakeLists.txt:
[08:26] <hikiko> we have the tests if MIR_PLATFORM STREQUAL gbm or android
[08:27] <hikiko> I am trying to create a mir platform in the server
[08:27] <hikiko> but
[08:27] <hikiko> I want to use the client as it is
[08:27] <hikiko> but if I have the mir platform the $MIR_PLATFORM is equal to 'mir' not gbm or android
[08:28] <hikiko> do you have any idea on how I could solve this?
[08:29] <hikiko> if client and server were separate projects I wouldn
[08:29] <hikiko> t have to worry about that
[08:29] <hikiko> but now to build the server
[08:29] <hikiko> I need to compile the client as well
[08:30] <duflu> hikiko, I think you will find it's common for client+server to share a source package. And then be separate in the binary+dev packages produced
[08:30] <duflu> But I don't quite understand the question
[08:30] <hikiko> well: I added a new platform in the root CMakeLists
[08:31] <hikiko> called "mir"
[08:31] <hikiko> if I try to build from the root dir
[08:31] <alan_g> hikiko: if you need distinct options for the server and client then don't use a single MIR_PLATFORM variable
[08:32] <hikiko> alan_g, what could I do instead?
[08:32] <alan_g> MIR_CLIENT_PLATFORM and MIR_SERVER_PLATFORM
[08:32] <hikiko> :D
[08:33] <duflu> I don't understand the need. Mir requires client platform == server platform
[08:33] <hikiko> mmm but this way I have to modify both the client and the server isn't it?
[08:33] <hikiko> duflu, I am trying to write a nested mir
[08:33] <hikiko> which means I have to implement a server
[08:33] <hikiko> using the client lib methods
[08:34] <hikiko> so, I need the client to be gbm or android
[08:34] <hikiko> depending on the machine
[08:34] <hikiko> and the server to be mir
[08:34] <duflu> Umm, there's no such thing as "client platform" is there? It just uses whatever "platform" the local server is
[08:34] <hikiko> yes
[08:34] <duflu> so MIR_PLATFORM means MIR_SERVER_PLATFORM
[08:34] <hikiko> in my case yes
[08:34] <duflu> which is "x11" now or something? :)
[08:34] <hikiko> no no
[08:35] <duflu> or SDL
[08:35] <hikiko> it's not that task anymore duflu :)
[08:35] <hikiko> it's not the mir on X
[08:35] <duflu> Oh, properly nested.
[08:35] <hikiko> yes :)
[08:35] <duflu> Yes, MIR_PLATFORM=mir
[08:35] <duflu> Hmm
[08:35] <alan_g> hikiko: AIUI you actually don't want to use the client libs in the server, you want to use the host client libs
[08:35] <hikiko> I think what alan_g said is the best solution
[08:36] <hikiko> oh
[08:36] <hikiko> so alan_g
[08:36] <hikiko> I don't have to link with the client
[08:36] <duflu> I still don't think MIR_CLIENT_PLATFORM makes sense
[08:36] <hikiko> but with libmirclient installed in the system?
[08:36] <alan_g> duflu: +1
[08:36] <duflu> Mir clients will "just work". They're not compiled for a "platform"
[08:36] <alan_g> hikiko: yes
[08:37] <hikiko> so in the client I can just add an empty mir platform
[08:38] <alan_g> hikiko: only if you're not supporting any clients. ;)
[08:38] <hikiko> haha
[08:38] <hikiko> braindamage
[08:38] <hikiko> let me think it again :)
[08:39] <duflu> I'm confused. But it would be nice to not have this confusion later at MP time
[08:39] <hikiko> if I link with the system mirclient and I have a server-side platform the nested server will be the client that will use the system libmir
[08:40] <hikiko> and then I have to do a client library for that server using mir functions again
[08:40] <hikiko> so that the clients of the nested server
[08:40] <hikiko> can use the nested mir?
[08:40] <alan_g> yes
[08:40] <hikiko> cool :D
[08:40] <hikiko> so MIR_PLATFORM is fine :) I don't need client and server!
[08:41] <alan_g> because, as duflu says, the client matches the server
[08:42] <hikiko> so I "just" have to write 2 clients: one that does what mir server does + a connection and one that does what mir client does
[08:42] <duflu> The client just talks a protocol. The server could be remote if only it wasn't for efficient buffer management meaning it's local, for now
[08:43] <duflu> Hmm
[08:43]  * duflu imagines an RDP buffer implementation
[08:43] <duflu> Oh, and the socket is filesystem based
[08:43]  * alan_g imagines duflu inventing X11
[08:43] <hikiko> LOL
[08:44]  * duflu regrets imagining
[08:44] <duflu> I did say RDP though. That's not X11
[08:44]  * alan_g doesn't let facts get in the way of a good story
[08:46] <hikiko> sorry :s but I don't understand everything, I can't do what I said without implement a new type of buffers or rdp for the moment? (i mean can i do a very minimal nested display for example without doing all that?)
[08:46] <hikiko> :S/rdp/any protocol
[08:47] <hikiko> I mean can I use the protobuf and the buffers as they are?
[08:48] <hikiko> I am refering to that: <duflu> The client just talks a protocol. The server could be remote if only it wasn't for efficient buffer management meaning it's local, for now
[08:48] <duflu> hikiko: Yes you're right. I was just imagining extending Mir's power in future
[08:50] <hikiko> yes :) I just got comfused with this ^ before you start imagining :) cool then!!
[08:50] <hikiko> thank you very much both alan_g and duflu :D
[11:45] <alan_g> alf_: I've discovered that, as of this morning, if I start mir on vt1 and a couple of clients on vt2 that after I switch to vt1 and back to vt2 the clients crash. Have you seen this?
[11:49] <alf_> alan_g: no
[11:49] <alf_> alan_g: but I haven't tried this recently
[11:50] <alan_g> alf_: np (I was hoping for "yes, that is...")
[11:51]  * alan_g decided to go back in time...
[11:58] <alan_g> ...it happens with last week's code too. Fires up a box which didn't update since last week...
[12:08] <alan_g> ...and on that I don't see a problem with last week's code. But when I pull head it goes boom...
[12:16]  * alan_g checks versions carefully: 727 works, 728 fails
[12:18] <alf_> tvoss: @not implementing snapshot ubuntu api, hmm, interesting... well the shell has access to each surface's texture but only in the (EGL) context of the compositor, i.e., in the CompositingStrategy the shell will provide to mir
[12:20] <tvoss> alf_, hmmm ... that's a good point. the shell is only taking a screenshot as it couldn't move around surfaces on screen
[12:20] <tvoss> alf_, thinking about it
[12:22] <alf_> tvoss: (we can't give texture ids to the shell to use with its own EGL context, since that context comes from a different EGL display and backend (mir vs gbm))
[12:22] <alf_> tvoss: (mir vs gbm/android)
[12:23] <tvoss> alf_, okay, thanks for the hint
[12:24] <alf_> tvoss: so we either keep the snapshot api, or the shell needs to get the snapshots as part of its compositing process
[12:25] <tvoss> yup, I was thinking about the latter one ...
[12:25] <tvoss> but let me check with Saviq, too
[12:25] <tvoss> alf_, in a few, though, need to finish a mail
[12:26] <alf_> tvoss: no problem... if we drop the API I need to start thinking about what to work on next :)
[12:29] <tvoss> alf_, I think we need to keep it intact for the time being, just need to think it threw completely
[12:57] <alf_> tvoss: "or the shell needs to get the snapshots as part of its compositing process" => "get *and draw* the snapshots...", since even in this case the shell still can't use the surface textures with its own inprocess client context
[13:30] <hikiko> another question: the MirNativeBuffer in the client library is the same thing as android and gbm buffers? or this is the MirSurface in the client?
[13:33] <alan_g> hikiko: yes
[14:37] <racarr> Good morning!
[14:42] <roman2861> Who knows abous Mir on Nexus 10?
[14:46] <racarr> roman2861: kdub is your best bet
[14:47] <racarr> My memory is that support on nexus 10 isn't that explored
[15:00] <kdub> roman2861, right, there's a plan to support the nexus 10, but at the moment, there are bugs that make it unusable
[15:02] <roman2861> I understood it when i tried to install Mir on tablet) But when you expect to fix bugs?
[15:10] <kdub> roman2861, hopefully soon, but you can track this blueprint for updates https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1307-mir-nexus10
[15:11] <roman2861> Thanks
[15:15] <kdub> status today, trying to figure out composition bypass, cleaning up some mc:: interfaces, and opening up an ipc path for clients to request swapinterval 0/1
[15:19] <alf_> alan_g: kdub: @lp 1189443, problem is that, due to the way we handle force_client_completion through exceptions, the clients can occasionally get an error response when asking from a buffer, but they are not in a good position to handle this situation right now. Also, what does getting an error response mean? Is it a fatal error, or should the client try again? It's not clear from a client's perspective.
[15:21] <alan_g> alf_: I don't think exceptions are right when switching VT
[15:22] <alf_> alan_g: kdub: Yeah, perhaps we should rethink using an exception as a reaction to force_client_completion().
[15:22] <kdub> why do we force_client_completion when switching vt?
[15:22] <alan_g> From a client perspective failing to swap_buffer is probably severe
[15:22] <alf_> kdub: to be able to stop the communicator's threads
[15:23] <alf_> kdub: same situation as when shutting down, but then we start again when we resume :)
[15:23] <alan_g> alf_: I don't think they are the same situation
[15:24] <racarr> they are in the code now ;)
[15:24] <kdub> we could also have a different method than just 'force_client_completion' i guess
[15:24] <racarr> This reminds me of the
[15:24] <kdub> that wil retry the request instead of bouncing an error out to the clients
[15:24] <alf_> alan_g: right now they are, since we stop the communicator when switching VTs
[15:24] <alan_g> racarr: we're discussing what should be
[15:24] <racarr> exception handling in swap_client_buffer in
[15:24] <racarr> err
[15:24] <racarr> acquire client buffer
[15:24] <racarr> in SwapperSwitcher
[15:25] <racarr> except in this case there is no meaningful way to propagate a "try again" flag
[15:26] <alan_g> alf_: kdub racarr - I knew it was better to call it "shutdown()" ;)
[15:27] <alan_g> "pause" shouldn't need to abort requests in progress
[15:27] <alan_g> (Aren't those threads blocked anyway)
[15:28] <alan_g> hangout?
[15:28] <alf_> alan_g: in the old version it didn't, it just ensured that any requests in progress would finish in some finite time
[15:28] <alf_> alan_g: sure
[15:29] <racarr> I am actually jumping on
[15:29] <racarr> unity8-mir sync now
[15:29] <alf_> alan_g: (and it was called force_requests_to_complete())
[15:29] <racarr> I can join you guys after, or if you want to delay a little
[15:29] <Saviq> racarr, alf_, hey, Gerry had to split, do you have anything I should know about or need to know something from me? or can we skip todays sync meeting?
[15:30] <alan_g> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/848de4bb9222c984f54e33476685aee9165bbfcc?hl=en-GB
[15:30] <alf_> Saviq: have you talked to tvoss about the snapshot API ?
[15:30] <Saviq> alf_, not yet,
[15:30] <tvoss> alf_, not yet
[15:30]  * alan_g is prepared to wait to get right decision
[15:30] <tvoss> Saviq, otp right now, will ping you after that
[15:30] <racarr> Saviq: Yes, Gerry pinged me. Um...ricmm is coming today I believe
[15:30] <Saviq> ok then, comign
[15:30] <racarr> to talk about landing the dependencies (should hopefully happen, today, tomorrow)
[15:31] <alf_> Saviq: tvoss: ok, thanks
[15:32] <racarr> alf_: I was thinking about snapshots
[15:32] <racarr> we can't share the texture ID directly, but we can share the buffer
[15:35] <racarr> right?
[15:36] <racarr> The same way we would to the compositor
[15:36] <racarr> but it becomes kind of strange...
[16:12] <alf_> racarr: buffer == gbm/android native buffer?
[16:12] <racarr> yes
[16:12] <racarr> I'm having trouble wrapping my head around exaclty what the synchronization problems are though
[16:13] <racarr> Done with shell sync, if anyone wants to hang out still. There are a few new things for us that we could go over too
[16:13] <racarr> or we can wait until tomorrow (and I will try and clarify thoughts on them today)
[16:17] <alf_> racarr: also, in this case the mir egl platform would need to be able to handle those types and create egl images from them
[16:20] <tvoss> Saviq, ping
[16:20] <Saviq> tvoss, pong
[16:20] <racarr> alf_: Yes. That's what I was thinking
[16:21] <racarr> it seems like we could implement that
[16:21] <racarr> can we on android?!?!
[16:23] <alf_> kdub: ^^ Any idea?
[16:23] <alf_> kdub: Can we implement eglCreateImageKHR for the Mir EGL platform on Android?
[16:24] <racarr> Why can't we use the existing one on android?
[16:24] <racarr> XD, not trying to be contrary, just having trouble wrapping my head around it
[16:24] <kdub> right, i don't know that there's anything to implement
[16:24] <racarr> there is both the problem of hooking together the bits
[16:24] <racarr> but then there is the problem o
[16:25] <racarr> is there a synchronization
[16:25] <racarr> problem
[16:25] <racarr> I mean this is basically like a client acquiring
[16:25] <racarr> another clients buffer
[16:25] <racarr> granted an internal client
[16:25] <racarr> hey that's the name of an interface!
[16:25] <racarr> but still.
[16:34] <alf_> racarr: yes, our buffer swapping scheme assumes 1 producer 1 consumer (for proper functioning) and this breaks the assumption
[16:35] <alf_> racarr: we still need some kind of "peeking" functionality, but if we hand out native buffer objects it complicates things
[16:41] <alf_> racarr: kdub: perhaps "EGLImage InternalClient::egl_create_image(EGLDisplay disp, EGLClientBuffer buf)" and "EGLClientBuffer Buffer::egl_client_buffer()"... it's all too hazy right now :)
[16:42]  * kdub doesnt really know the context we're talking about
[16:42] <racarr> alf_: That is what I am thinking.
[16:42] <racarr> but it's too hazy for me to be 100% convinced it works
[16:42] <racarr> kdub: Snapshots
[16:42] <racarr> well not snaphots
[16:42] <racarr> preview
[16:42] <racarr> s
[16:42] <kdub> with android you can eglCreateImageKHR with the android native buffer type
[16:44] <racarr> kdub: Mm. I think the confusing bit is
[16:44] <racarr> if one client (i.e. the shell InternalClient)
[16:44] <racarr> say the dash
[16:44] <racarr> needs to preview an application
[16:44] <racarr> It has to dos omething akin to like
[16:44] <racarr> compositor_acquire
[16:44] <racarr> (I think?)
[16:44] <racarr> the implications of this are hazy
[16:45] <racarr> to me XD
[16:45] <racarr> maybe not to you
[16:45] <alf_> racarr: probably compositor_peek(), which at least is somewhat clear to me :)
[16:45] <kdub> right :)
[16:46] <racarr> it is somehow an acquire though right because how can you know when the client is done with it
[16:46] <racarr> espescially if we don't glflush on buffer swap
[16:46] <racarr> which we can only get away with for so long :p
[16:46] <alf_> racarr: right, it's more of a lock, you will need to peek/release
[16:47] <racarr> I have a feeling there will be something called a fence involved
[16:47] <racarr> XD
[16:49] <alf_> racarr: kdub: What confuses me (probably because I am not familiar with Android EGL impl., is how you would create an EGLImage for the *Mir* EGLDisplay? Could you just write: eglCreateImageKHR(mir_egl_display, android_native_buffer)?
[16:50] <racarr> In android it's all the same EGLDisplay
[16:51] <kdub> right
[16:51] <racarr> So. I think so!
[16:51] <kdub> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/trunk/view/head:/src/server/graphics/android/buffer.cpp
[16:54] <alf_> racarr: kdub: ok, so only for Mesa we would need to actually implement eglCreateImageKHR for the "mir" egl platform
[16:58] <alf_> racarr: kdub: ok, it's becoming a bit clearer... this could work if the access to the buffers is synced by using a peek/lock mechanism.
[16:59] <kdub> alf_, right, i think so
[17:00] <alf_> racarr: kdub: we could even enforce this at the API level, Surface::with_latest_buffer_egl_image_do(EGLDisplay, InternalClient, std::function<void(EGLImage)>) ... we would safely create/release the image, and just guarantee that it's valid for the duration of the callback function.
[17:01] <racarr> that API might be difficult to use
[17:02] <racarr> oh
[17:02] <racarr> I'm not sure why I thought that
[17:02] <racarr> XD
[17:02] <alf_> all: Have a great rest of day!
[17:02] <racarr> alf_: Yes. I think it makes sense.
[17:03] <racarr> You too!
[17:03] <racarr> Lets talk about this tomorrow
[17:03] <racarr> once its had a little time to clarify
[17:03] <alf_> racarr: sure
[17:03] <racarr> See ya!
[17:11] <racarr> When does kgunn come back?
[18:32] <racarr|lunch> Happy lunch!
[20:05] <racarr> Anyone around with some qmake knowledge?
[20:48] <racarr> Now I know some qmake!
[22:59] <bregma> *tsk* *tsk* it seems the mir codebase is liberally sprinkled with assert() macros executing code with side effects
[22:59] <bregma> turns out that's always been a bad idea
[23:02] <racarr> It's not the best idea XD
[23:03] <racarr> I think most of the asserts
[23:03] <racarr> are more of a "TODO"
[23:03] <racarr> than anything else
[23:04] <kdub> they can be removed, i'd say
[23:06] <bregma> the test suite depends on them actually asserting
[23:06] <bregma> I have an MP forthcoming
[23:06] <bregma> slowly
[23:07] <bregma> the root of the problem is that CMake sets NDEBUG by default in the current version
[23:08] <racarr> Ah
[23:08] <racarr> thanks :)
[23:09] <bregma> does mir have an automerger?
[23:14] <racarr> yes
[23:26] <racarr> “Follow the Road of White Nettles for three days into the mountains, and you will come to a hermitage perched on a cliff. A learned brother dwells there who keeps copies of our client’s documentation. He will advise you on the design of the system.”
[23:26] <racarr> ...hahahaha
[23:35] <racarr> Pretty much done for today :) Will be around for a while at least at computer if I can be helpful


[04:45] <tsimonq2> cyphermox: Any reason why your latest grub2 upload isn't in Git? https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/grub/+git/ubuntu
[08:31] <doko> oSoMoN: hi, any update on LO? we had to work around the uninstallability in -proposed already, to avoid blocking the ffmpeg transition
[08:33] <oSoMoN> doko, I've prepared a 6.0.6~rc1 build that resolves the build problems, I'm now running the autopkgtests locally and if it's all good I'll push it to cosmic
[08:33] <oSoMoN> expect something build in cosmic some time this morning
[08:33] <doko> ta
[09:02] <stevenm> are there any kind of moderators for launchpad or bugs related to ubuntu itself?  i'm kinda annoyed that someone has completely rephrased my bug report - effectively putting words in my mouth
[09:03] <cjwatson> It's intended that the bug description (but not subsequent comments) can be edited to serve as a better summary of the bug, and your original text is preserved in the "View original description" link or whatever it's called.  But if you feel the description edit was inaccurate then you can either edit it again yourself or talk to the person who made the change
[09:04] <cjwatson> If the edit was actually abusive then we can deal with that
[09:12] <stevenm> cjwatson, well i left a comment for them in the bug report but that was 5 days ago  - no reply
[09:12] <stevenm> so i've changed it back, but including their version too - with a note to say i'd rather have the bug invalidated than be completely re-edited like that
[09:15] <stevenm> cjwatson, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1780971
[09:15] <stevenm> i admit my original description is wordy - but at the same time it can't be helped as i'm trying to describe a user experience problem
[09:16] <stevenm> certainly can't be boiled down to what it was changed to, not only is that only 1 possible remedy (of about 5) but also it only caters for one scenario
[09:41] <cjwatson> stevenm: That seems like a reasonable way to resolve it
[09:41] <cjwatson> Doesn't need a moderator unless it turns into bug description tennis :)
[09:42] <cjwatson> Do remember that developers need to distil bugs down into actionable items in order to do anything about them, and sometimes we make mistakes in doing so because we're human
[10:12] <xnox> tseliot, hey! have you seen https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1655584 ? any thoughts?
[10:23] <tseliot> xnox: I don't think one should install the nvidia driver and expect it not to be used
[10:24] <xnox> tseliot, har har har =)
[10:28] <xnox> tseliot, the only thing i can think of, is that the module is declared as compatible, even though it is not. E.g. missmatch of modalises / pci lines.... but that is highly unlikely.
[10:34] <tseliot> xnox: while certainly possible, we don't have the pci id of the GPU to prove it
[10:58] <rbasak> stevenm: the challenge with your bug report is that we don't have an objective way of knowing when it has been resolved, or what we can do to actually resolve it.
[11:00] <rbasak> stevenm: for the bug to make progress, I think it needs pinning down more. Otherwise though it's useful and valuable feedback, I'm not sure its status in the bug tracker can be anything but Incomplete
[11:00] <rbasak> stevenm: or are you saying that if any of your suggestions in your comment 1 were implemnted, you'd consider the bug fixed?
[11:07] <stevenm> rbasak, yeah basically - all bugs get conversation regarding how to fix it... but it should change the description pre-emptively on what the proposed fix it
[11:07] <stevenm> *is
[11:07] <stevenm> the bug report should just explain the circumstances
[11:07] <stevenm> s/but it should/but it shouldn't/
[11:07] <stevenm>  :D
[11:10] <rbasak> stevenm: but it's really difficult for any developer to propose a solution for an open ended problem.
[11:10] <stevenm> i'd hardly call it open ended - not when there are several possible solutions talked about
[11:11] <rbasak> That's true, but the bug title is still open ended. Could you perhaps summarise the common thing that you're fixing in all of those possible solutions and update the bug title?
[11:12] <stevenm> i've already done that by saying what the target system should be capable of doing
[11:12] <stevenm> be encrypted, work with hibernation, not delete existing os's
[11:12] <stevenm> and important of all - be friendly to newbies because the above shouldn't be a tall order
[11:13] <rbasak> OK, so how about "Encryption option doesn't support installation alongside existing OSes"?
[11:13] <stevenm> at some point you'll always get feedback regarding the level of frustration that is caused - that's just as valid, it gets boiled down to a workable solution *after* the bug is filed
[11:13] <stevenm> rbasak, except I don't expect that to be fixable
[11:13] <stevenm> as it would require ubiquity to be able to resize all known os's :D
[11:14] <stevenm> which is why I haven't called it that
[11:14] <stevenm> at some point the problem has to be accepted for what it is - and stop redefinining it
[11:14] <rbasak> OK, so how about "Encryption option doesn't support installation alongside Windows"?
[11:14] <stevenm> right but you're just as equally stuffed if wanting to do this on a chromebook or macbook ? :D
[11:15] <rbasak> Got to start with something
[11:15] <rbasak> I don't feel that this re-defining it. I feel that it needs defining for the first time :)
[11:15] <stevenm> sure but likely the solution to the problem (e.g. pick which bit of contiguous free spare to setup a crypt/lvm/ubuntu system) will fix them all
[11:16] <stevenm> and yeah if its windows - it'd be nice if it could offer making that free space too
[11:16] <rbasak> I'm just trying to be helpful by saying that if the bug title isn't specific, it's unlikely to get attention from developers.
[11:16] <rbasak> And that's what I think that triager was trying to achieve.
[11:16] <stevenm> bugs are 'i found this problem, this is how'  not  'i found this problem, you should fix it this way'
[11:17] <rbasak> It's up to you how you want to do that I guess.
[11:17] <stevenm> right well triage it without rephrasing the problem! :D
[11:17] <rbasak> The triager tried and you didn't like it.
[11:17] <rbasak> So I think the ball's in your court :)
[11:18] <stevenm> :D
[11:18] <rbasak> At some point someone has to pin down the bug to a specific solution
[11:18] <stevenm> sure but that comes *after* it is reported
[11:18] <stevenm> not by changing what was reported
[11:18] <rbasak> Right now I think developers will be reluctant to do that because they'll fear that you'll reply asking for it to be made general again.
[11:19] <rbasak> It will become a zombie bug, changing form to whatever part of it you feel isn't fixed yet.
[11:19] <stevenm> bug reporters can't help come into the difficulties they find themselves in - and describing it in the exact way they found it
[11:19] <rbasak> And developers don't like touching those because there's no objective way to fix them.
[11:20] <rbasak> Sure, and we value that feedback.
[11:20] <rbasak> But the bug tracker is supposed to be used to fix specific issues.
[11:20] <stevenm> it is one of those
[11:20] <rbasak> General feedback is perhaps better given in mailing lists or forums etc.
[11:20] <stevenm> it isn't one of those
[11:20] <stevenm> many bugs have several possible ways to fix them - this is no different
[11:21] <stevenm> proposals for a fix will come and go, some will be considered janky and workarounds, some get to the root of the problem, some are just plain crazy and missing the point
[11:21] <stevenm> this is no different - but all that comes *after* it is reported
[11:21] <rbasak> That's all fine.
[11:21] <stevenm> not by defining the problem
[11:21] <rbasak> The key is that the bug title and description accurately describe the conditions under which the bug may be closed.
[11:22] <rbasak> (closed as fixed, that is)
[11:22] <stevenm> they do
[11:22] <stevenm> the description describes several scenarios that may be possible ways to resolve it
[11:22] <stevenm> the title is kept specific enough to speak to those scenarios
[11:22] <rbasak> "Insufficient options for encryption" doesn't cover that though.
[11:23] <rbasak> Anyway, I'm just trying to be helpful in getting the bug addressed such that I think developers will be able to work on it.
[11:23] <stevenm> it does because all the other titles you and others have proposed - narrow down on just one scenario
[11:23] <rbasak> I don't think I'm able to be helpful any more, so I'll stop.
[11:23] <stevenm> ok :P thanks anyway
[11:24] <rbasak> Thank you for the report and the feedback.
[12:34] <doko> stgraber: please could you have a look at the lxd/i386 autopkg test failure triggered by python3-defaults?
[13:04] <oSoMoN> doko, libreoffice 6.0.6~rc1 is currently building in cosmic-proposed, and I'm uploading the corresponding -l10n package
[13:04] <oSoMoN> hopefully that unblocks transitions
[13:07] <ricotz> Laney, doko, hi, regarding ffmpeg 4 -- gst-libav seems to be some trouble
[13:08] <ricotz> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=792900
[13:11] <doko> ricotz: feel free to fix it. I'm not the transition owner
[13:13] <seb128> ricotz, L_aney is on holidays
[13:14] <ricotz> doko, ok
[13:14] <ricotz> seb128, hi, I see
[13:15] <doko> seb128, jbicha: any update with brotli? will block the python3-defaults transition
[13:25] <alkisg> Hi, when is 18.04.1 coming out, July 26th or August 2nd? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseSchedule lists a different date for 18.04.1 vs the "PointRelease"...
[13:32] <seb128> doko, no idea about what you are talking about, and j_bicha is not really around anymore atm
[13:33] <doko> seb128: I'm talking about a desktop owned package which currently ftbfs
[13:33] <xnox> alkisg, one is bionic, the other one is xenial.
[13:33] <xnox> alkisg, it does say 18.04.1 and 16.04.5 clearly next to each date =)
[13:34] <alkisg> xnox: ah, thank you; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule did it differently
[13:34] <alkisg> I.e.  13     July 21st      PointRelease  Ubuntu 16.04.1
[13:34] <xnox> alkisg, meh
[13:35] <xnox> the info is there =) and it's not structured data, just hand editted wiki =)
[13:35] <alkisg> It just didn't come to my mind that pointrelease was referring to 16.04 there. Thanks! :)
[13:36] <seb128> doko, bug number?
[13:36] <seb128> doko, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brotli is empty
[13:40] <seb128> doko, there is no good process atm that let team know about build issues in their packages so if you see one that needs to be resolved the proper way to deal with it is the report the problem and assign or rls-cc-incoming tag it so it's on our official reports
[13:52] <xnox> seb128, would it be useful to generate FTBFS mailing list notifications for subcribing teams as they happen?
[13:53] <xnox> seb128, e.g. something that monitors the ftbfs report and reports those somewhere or would that just be spam? trello cards? automatic bug reports?
[14:00] <seb128> xnox, having some sort of reporting would be useful for sure, having individuals manually checking the status of all their packages isn't the best
[14:02] <xnox> seb128, so during a team meeting you don't look at e.g. http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/#desktop-packages ? and http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/#desktop-extra ?
[14:13] <doko> well, what x-nox said ...
[14:48] <sil2100> mvo: hey! jibel metioned to me that pre-installed snaps on bionic images don't work
[14:48] <sil2100> mvo: he pointed to the bug LP: #1772844 which apparently should be fixed in the seeds (and therefore in the dailies we build)
[14:49] <sil2100> But the snaps seem to still not work
[14:49] <sil2100> jibel: are you sure it's the same issue still?
[14:50] <jibel> sil2100, I suppose it's the same from this thread https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/gnome-calculator-failed-to-create-symbolic-link/5742
[14:56] <infinity> Fixed in the seeds doesn't mean fixed in the images, because germinate re-orders things.
[14:56] <infinity> So when it gets to livecd-rootfs to write in the seed.yaml, gtk-common-whatever is last again.
[15:02] <sil2100> I guess infinity's proposition of working-around it by hacking livecd-rootfs to force gtk-common-themes ordering might work
[15:03] <mvo> infinity, sil2100 we have this on our todo list to analyze and reoder seed.yaml as needed. however right now we rely on explicit ordering. how much is the rewriting in livecd-rootfs needed? could we keep the original order here maybe for the time being?
[15:09] <infinity> mvo: What do you mean "how much"?
[15:09] <infinity> mvo: It's needed as much as people want the snaps to work? :P
[15:10] <infinity> mvo: Or if you're asking why livecd-rootfs reorders things currently, it doesn't.
[15:10] <infinity> mvo: snaps are seeded, germinate consumes seeds, livecd-rootfs consumes germinate output.  germinate's output order isn't the same as the input order.
[15:12] <infinity> mvo: One coule maybe argue that's a bug, but historically, germinate had no reason to keep things in a specific order, as dpkg deps don't have ordering constraints.
[15:23] <rbasak> smb: o/
[15:23] <rbasak> smb: what would you like to do wrt. https://code.launchpad.net/~smb/ubuntu/+source/iproute2/+git/iproute2/+merge/348673?
[15:24] <mvo> infinity: sorry for not being precise in my question. I was wondering how hard it would be to make the germinate output order the same as the input order
[15:25] <smb> rbasak, if I were not rubbish (or distracted by so many other things) I would update the merge request
[15:25] <mvo> infinity: I know fixing this on our side is quite a bit of work unfortunately so I wonder if there is a quicker fix until we can fix the real issue
[15:26] <rbasak> smb: no rush. Just making sure you aren't expecting something from me.
[15:26] <infinity> mvo: I don't know how much work it would be to ask germinate to do that.  But just forcing gtk-thing-whatever to be first in the list if present would be doable in livecd-rootfs.
[15:27] <infinity> mvo: Oh, except it needs to be second in the list, doesn't it? :P
[15:27] <smb> rbasak, no, right now rather the opposite
[15:28] <mvo> infinity: I need to look, I don't look from the top of my head :/ but the order from the bug works
[15:30] <infinity> mvo: The entire list is:
[15:30] <infinity>  * snap:gnome-3-26-1604
[15:30] <infinity>  * snap:gtk-common-themes
[15:30] <infinity>  * snap:gnome-calculator
[15:30] <infinity>  * snap:gnome-characters
[15:30] <infinity>  * snap:gnome-logs
[15:30] <infinity>  * snap:gnome-system-monitor
[15:31] <infinity> mvo: I'm going to assume gtk-common-themese needs to come after gnome-3, but I could be wrong and maybe they can come in any order.
[15:33] <infinity> mvo: And this is how it gets spit out of germinate: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.bionic/desktop.snaps
[15:33]  * mvo looks
[15:33] <infinity> mvo: Looks pretty suspiciously like ASCII sort order.
[15:33] <mvo> yeah
[15:34] <infinity> But ASCII sort happens to be almost the order we want, except for gtk-common-themes, so I can just manually shuffle that in livecd-rootfs for the point release.
[15:34] <infinity> I *won't* fix it in cosmic, cause I think we need the glaring reminder to fix it properly.
[15:35] <infinity> mvo: I don't think asking germinate to maintain seed order is entirely sane, since that's really not how germinate has ever been historically used or documented.
[15:35] <infinity> mvo: But if there's some way to introspect the snaps and determine dependency order, then maybe that might be a valid thing to ask it to do.  But if that can be done, snapd could *&^!^& do that itself on consuming seed.yaml as well. :P
[15:36] <mvo> infinity: yeah, we will fix it probably soon, i.e. reoder in "base" order
[15:41] <infinity> mvo: I guess the snap germinate stuff is a bolt-on anyway, maybe it could be asked to not fiddle with the order, but that's not an SRU I want to do in the next two hours.
[15:43] <infinity> Ahh, no, that looks hard.
[15:43] <infinity> Since it just pulls the whole seed into an ordered dict and then filters the snaps back out.
[15:43] <infinity> So the order is broken before we know it's a snap.
[15:43] <cjwatson> It'd be quite a bit of surgery to get germinate to preserve order.
[15:44] <infinity> cjwatson: Yeah, just came to the same conclusion.
[15:44] <infinity> livecd-rootfs hack it is, for now.  Fun, fun.
[15:44] <cjwatson> Since as you say it was never previously needed so it has quite pervasive assumptions that it doesn't need to.
[15:46] <mvo> infinity, cjwatson ok, so its more than just throwing a s/dict/collections.OrderedDict/ ? thats unfortunate :/
[15:46] <mvo> infinity: sorry for the extra trouble :/
[15:51] <infinity> mvo: Can you confirm that it's okay for gtk-common-themes to come first (ie: before gnome-3-26-1604), cause that makes the hack easier.
[15:53] <mvo> infinity: yes,that should be fine, it is not using a base itself AFAICT
[15:53] <mvo> infinity: checking some more
[15:55] <mvo> infinity: yeah, should be fine
[15:56] <infinity> mvo: Okay, that gives a simple hack like so: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/kGVN5r34nk/
[15:58] <mvo> infinity: thank you
[15:58] <infinity> I guess that wants to be ${ALL_SNAPS:+ ${ALL_SNAPS}} just in case.
[16:01] <infinity> mvo: http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Y6vMzhRZQc/
[16:04] <mvo> infinity: yeah
[16:05] <mvo> infinity: once that fire is under control, what are our chances to get snapd 2.34.2 into -updates so that it can be part of 18.04.2? our QA team did the validation, anything I can do to help with 2.34.2 moving to -updates?
[16:06] <infinity> mvo: Tell me with some level of confidence that the snapcraft autopkgtest regressions aren't snapd's fault.
[16:07] <mvo> infinity: let me double check them all first to ensure nothing has changed since I looked last.
[16:12] <mvo> infinity: 80-90% confident this is not related to snapd at all. AFAICT the tests run rustup.sh and for some reason this is not fully working, i.e. after it ran "error: could not execute process `rustc -vV` (never executed)` fails with ENOENT. I don't see snapd involved in this failing test(s)
[16:14] <infinity> mvo: Well, unless snapd is involved in the rust snap not installing correctly.
[16:14] <infinity> mvo: Cause that's, like, its job.
[16:15] <infinity> mvo: (So, it seems to come down to "the rust snap is broken" or "snapd broke the rust snap", and I'd like a definitive answer as to which)
[16:18] <jibel> mvo, talking about 2.34.2, on a fresh installation of 18.04.1 (snapd 2.34.2+18.04) gedit snap hangs during installation on "automatically connect eligible plugs and slots ...". I cannot find any useful data about what's going on. Is it something reported already?
[16:20] <mvo> infinity: let me double check but to me this looks like its not the rust snap its rustup.sh
[16:20] <mvo> jibel: uh, ok
[16:21] <infinity> mvo: Seems a bit suspect that "rustc" is ENOENT...
[16:21] <mvo> jibel: anything in snap changes and the relevant change? any warning or anything?
[16:22] <mvo> infinity: I check their testsuite now
[16:24] <jibel> mvo, no nothing, it just hangs on "Doing  today at 18:22 CEST  -                    Automatically connect eligible plugs and slots of snap "gedit"
[16:24] <jibel> "
[16:26] <jibel> mvo, if it is not known, I'll open a thread in the forum
[16:26] <mvo> infinity: the rust plugin uses _RUSTUP = "https://static.rust-lang.org/rustup.sh"
[16:26] <mvo> infinity: no snap involved
[16:27] <mvo> jibel: how can I reproduce this? is this also an issue with 2.33.1 (the current one in -updates)?
[16:28] <infinity> mvo: Ahh, okay.  That gives me even less confindence in the snapcraft testsuite than I already had, but it guess it gets snapd off the hook. :P
[16:28] <mvo> infinity: yeah, let me quickly investigate the issue that jibel  reported, not sure if its a regression or not
[16:28] <infinity> mvo: I'm going to run and grab a coffee and some sort of breakfast sandwich, gimme a summary of what you learn from jibel's bug when I get back?
[16:29] <mvo> infinity: absolutely! thank you and enjoy breakfast
[16:39] <mvo> infinity, jibel I can reproduce the issue with gedit and 2.33.1 (the current version in -updates). so not a regression but still a bug
[16:41] <mvo> jibel: ok, 2.33.1 eventually finished with a warning, looking further
[16:45] <mvo> jibel: same for 2.34.1, took a long time but then finished, trying again fresh
[16:50] <mvo> jibel: same result, took a long time but eventually worked with 2.34.2
[16:51] <jibel> mvo, it never finishes for me and cannot be aborted either. It's with bionic daily
[16:51] <mvo> jibel: bionic daily with -proposed?
[16:51] <jibel> yes
[16:52] <mvo> jibel: I just created the VM with autopkgtest-buildvm-, let me try to enable proposed and try again
[16:52] <jibel> I didn't try with 2.33, downgrading hangs too
[16:52] <mvo> jibel: `snap change <nr>` should give you more details
[16:54] <jibel> not much https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/6DJdzKgKKy/ (in french sorry but the message it's hanging on is in english)
[16:58] <mvo> jibel: :( I just tried it again with -proposed in the vm still not reproducible, let me download the bionic daily
[16:59] <mvo> jibel: do yu have the link which image you used? just to make sure I get exactly the same
[17:02] <jibel> mvo, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/bionic/daily-live/current/
[17:03] <jibel> mvo, I've to go, I'll continue tomorrow
[17:03] <mvo> jibel: ta
[17:03] <mvo> jibel: I test this out now