[06:52] <knightwise> morning
[07:10] <redtape|renegade> Grumblings :  ' Up all night after TT german bikers decided to have a bevies and swap road-hog stories from 10 years ago .. till 5a.m. (!!) . Some of them went for a swim after (??)
[07:13]  * redtape|renegade grumbles GOOD morning...
[07:16] <knightwise> morning
[07:17] <redtape|renegade> knightwise: Morning, OT | Does anyone vape here ?
[07:17] <knightwise> notme
[07:27] <redtape|renegade> QUESTION: Would it be possible to have a disc version of Ubuntu that can fit on a 190MB disc, that can just download all the Ubuntu packages and trigger updates to be installed aswell ? i.e. So you can just give someone a Mini-CD or a business card sized disc and let them just 'net install' from there ? Weird question, but it's one of those " I'm feeling lucky " type-a queries .. :]
[07:29] <diplo> Morning all
[07:30] <diplo> redtape|renegade: Isn't that the net install CD ?
[07:30] <redtape|renegade> is it ?
[07:30]  * diplo getting url
[07:30]  * redtape|renegade starts googling .. silly redtape ..
[07:31] <diplo> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/12.04/
[07:31] <redtape|renegade> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD  ?? right ?
[07:31] <diplo> Or there is a 13.04 image as well
[07:32] <diplo> Yep
[07:34] <redtape|renegade> 30MB .. mmm pretty good . wiki doesn't say much .. Do I have to 'select' Opt In/Out of packages .. or is it all done for you ?
[07:36] <diplo> You get a base install of enough to get the machine running and can select some to install I think, been a while since I used it
[07:37] <diplo> But I normally go for totally empty install and install what I need as I go
[07:42] <redtape|renegade> diplo: MMmm .. interesting. Just recalled I haven't tried installing Ubuntu on one of these yet for travelling/train  [ http://bit.ly/141p6xt ] as described here ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/TEGRA/AC100#Misc_links
[07:43] <diplo> Be worth getting a live cd to test functionality ?
[07:46] <redtape|renegade> diplo: You mean official one/ DVD , or .. 'is there any point' ? Plz be specific .. I care not, but I'm just saying I like the device, unless you can think of a lighter/smaller one ?
[07:47] <diplo> I Sorry hadn't read the second link, just scanning through it now
[07:48] <diplo> Maybe worth chatting in their channel #ac100 ?
[07:49] <redtape|renegade> your right, I will .. I was thinking of tinkering with another flavour next month anyway .. i.e. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/GetLubuntu#ARM_(AC100)_Systems
[07:50] <knightwise> Lubuntu - Arm ? on what ?
[07:51] <redtape|renegade> knightwise: that was 9 mins ago .. but we are perhaps vearing OT.. ?
[07:52] <knightwise> hmm.. i'm running standard 12.04 on my macbook air
[07:52] <knightwise> roarin fast :)
[07:52] <redtape|renegade> knightwise: Do all the keys work ?
[07:53] <redtape|renegade> I say that 'cos I have a new apple keyboard . & that doesn't adapt well to ubuntu ..
[07:54] <popey> Morning.
[07:54] <AlanBell> morning
[07:56] <knightwise> redtape|renegade: yep
[07:56] <redtape|renegade> hi guys .. nice post AlanBell on G+
[07:56] <knightwise> redtape|renegade: google "Knightwise Macbookair"
[07:56] <knightwise> it will point you to an article on the installation and a post howto script
[07:56] <redtape|renegade> right ..
[07:58] <knightwise> http://knightwise.com/installing-ubuntu-on-a-macbook-air-an-updated-howto/
[08:01] <dwatkins> Is there some issue with providing wifi drivers for Macbooks on the live USB image? They don't seem to work when booted from the ISO.
[08:02] <knightwise> not that I know , but I do use the wired connection when installing.
[08:02] <knightwise> then it works fine.
[08:02] <knightwise> because they get teh wifi drivers from the repos
[08:03] <dwatkins> yeah, I just wondered as I was hoping to have a persistent USB-based install
[08:03] <dwatkins> I didn't have a cable to hand when I last tested booting via EFI.
[08:03] <redtape|renegade> V. intelligent website knightwise .. how refreshing .. (well done. ) .. althou I could be forgetting I've seen it before ..
[08:06] <popey> dwatkins: yes. non-open broadcom drivers / firmware, not on the ISO
[08:07] <dwatkins> thanks popey - makes sense
[08:11] <diplo> Anyone got any ideas, cut and pasting a perl script into a new file, hashes all the lines and moves them in a few tabs each time
[08:11] <diplo> Using vi
[08:14] <dwatkins> diplo: you mean auto-indenting? http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_stop_auto_indenting
[08:14] <dwatkins> or more than just that?
[08:14] <redtape|renegade> knightwise: Yes, I'm converted to that idea .. a 2008 Macb.- Air +  Ubuntu   sounds goods .. http://bit.ly/Zq5jvi
[08:15] <diplo> auto indents each line and adds a hash to each line
[08:15] <redtape|renegade> .. almost too good ..
[08:15] <diplo> just reading that link
[08:19] <diplo> heh none of the options work :/
[08:19] <dwatkins> bah
[08:19] <dwatkins> I assume if you paste into some other app, that the hashes don't appear
[08:19] <diplo> I could go through it line by line but it happens on one site every time and I can't work out why :/
[08:19] <dwatkins> i.e. that it's not some javascript thing changing what's being copied
[08:19] <diplo> Yep, just one site and happens to all files
[08:20] <diplo> Not sure if it's specific to vi, see if nano or something is installed
[08:20] <dwatkins> I discovered a plugin for Chrome which blocks the annoying double-paste things where it forces you to put the URL when pasting
[08:20] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:21] <dwatkins> allo MooDoo
[08:22] <diplo> OK, at least I've trimmed it down to a vi issues
[08:22] <diplo> Just installed nano :(
[08:22] <dwatkins> vi or vim? ;)
[08:22] <dwatkins> also, is it specific to that user account?
[08:23]  * dwatkins wonders if the spaces are really spaces or some hoopy unicode
[08:23] <diplo> Good point, hadn't tried under root
[08:23] <redtape|renegade> diplo, cheer up .. It's two 4 Tuesdays at dominoes tonight ! .. just sayin' ..
[08:24] <diplo> Yuk :)
[08:27] <redtape|renegade> diplo: Your prob.ly right .. the chicken is a long way from fresh ...
[08:30] <dwatkins> I wish they'd make a pizza with coconut flour
[08:33] <SuperMatt> ...
[08:33] <SuperMatt> that sounds like the worst
[08:35]  * redtape|renegade changes 'worst' for 'dumpster fire' .
[08:37]  * redtape|renegade scurries off to do the weekly bins..
[08:37] <redtape|renegade> leaves.
[08:38] <Laney> hahaha
[08:43] <mungbean> anyone tried teh text trace service when expecting a package from amazon?
[08:43] <Laney> I signed up for it but it has never text me yet
[08:43] <Laney> some of the individual couriers do though
[08:43] <mungbean> lolz
[08:44] <mungbean> this one is citylink
[08:45] <mungbean> You are signed-up for Text Trace to receive text messages between 7 AM and 8 PM when your delivery encounters a problem.
[08:45] <mungbean> oh
[08:45] <dwatkins> Citylink are liars
[08:45] <mungbean> not what i expected
[08:45] <mungbean> i wanted "your parcel is being put onto a van"
[08:45] <mungbean> "is coming up the road"
[08:46] <dwatkins> I've had plenty of texts from Amazon UK's delivery company DPD that were always pretty accurate.
[08:46] <dwatkins> Not sure if you have to be signed up for Prime for that, though.
[08:46] <Laney> yeah that's something else
[08:47] <Laney> ho hum
[08:47] <Laney> usually when mine have a problem amazone don't know about it because yodel are liars
[08:47] <mungbean> don't think i'll need my parcel if the rain keeps up anyway
[08:47] <popey> is your parcel a sun lounger?
[08:48] <mgdm> I have no idea how or why Yodel are still in business - they changed names from HDNL because they had a hideous rep, but they've kept it up
[08:48] <mungbean> it's an adult scooter
[08:48] <mungbean> for getting to work quicker/more funly
[08:48] <Laney> mgdm: i can only assume that amazon are locked into a contract
[08:48] <Laney> or they are so cheap that it's worth taking the flak
[08:48] <mgdm> last time I had something delivered from them we were out, they handed it to my next-door neighbour and didn't tell anyone - next door neighbours are students, though, so didn't bother to try to contact us as they're nocturnal
[08:49] <mungbean> i have a strange neighbour who has a poor paying job and v expensive car that he drives around at 1am
[08:49] <Laney> i've had the classic "left in the bin" on bin day, which the neighbours then kindly put out for me
[08:49] <mgdm> :/
[08:50] <Laney> got back in time for that one
[08:50] <DJones> \o/ Benefit of working in the motor industry, free MOT's :)
[08:50] <mgdm> DJones: nice. Now drive a car with no emissions and avoid VED, too :-)
[08:50] <mgdm> (fvvo 'no')
[08:52] <DJones> mgdm: You mean something like this http://goo.gl/sVGBk
[08:52] <mgdm> heh
[08:52] <DJones> I think my dad only pays £30/year for his car for a peugeot 3008
[08:53] <mgdm> mine's a bit more than that :/
[08:54] <DJones> I've got an old shape Picasso, 2 neighbours have got one with different engines, theirs are 1.6 Petrol engines, mine is a 2L diesel, they pay about £180/year, mine is £130, and people commonly say that diesel engines are dirtier than petrol
[08:55] <mgdm> I think they're 'better' in terms of CO2 output, which is what VED cares about, but worse in terms of particulates
[08:55] <DJones> One of the neighbours threatened to swap the engines overnight
[08:55] <mgdm> heh
[08:55] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:55] <DJones> Thankfully it was the teaching assistant, rather than the mechanic who owns the the other picasso
[08:56] <bigcalm> mgdm: heard of any hotel discounts for phpnw13? The website seems to be lacking such info this year
[08:56] <directhex> dwatkins, amazon use every single courier depending on the item. dpd isn't exclusively amazon's
[08:56] <mgdm> bigcalm: Not thus far
[08:56] <bigcalm> mgdm: maybe I should hold off booking a room then
[08:57] <mgdm> I've not looked at the site, yet - might be worth asking in #phpnw?
[08:57] <dwatkins> directhex: ah ok, I seem to get them all the time, perhaps because of my location (Edinburgh)
[09:00] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:02] <directhex> dwatkins, wish i got dpd more.
[09:02] <directhex> dwatkins, we get APLE here. dreadful.
[09:05] <Laney> AAPL
[09:08] <JamesTait> Good morning all, happy Hamburger Day! :-)
[09:08] <brobostigon> good morning JamesTait
[09:08] <JamesTait> brobostigon, o/
[09:10] <dwatkins> directhex: I stopped ordering from Firebox because they use Citylink.
[09:10] <directhex> CITYLINK :D
[09:10] <dwatkins> Citylink write on the website that they attempt delivery in the morning, but don't turn up, it's just to keep the beancounters happy, but it's a lie.
[09:11] <dwatkins> Even getting stuff delivered to my office, which is staffed all the time during the day, is hassle with Citylink.
[09:11] <directhex> general case: i like DPD/interlink because 1-hour delivery slots. i like royal mail because the depot is walking distance. beyond that, i'm not keen on couriers
[09:34] <bigcalm> JamesTait: hamburger day?
[09:34] <JamesTait> bigcalm, allegedly.
[09:34] <bigcalm> Humm
[09:34] <bigcalm> Think I'll pass
[09:35] <JamesTait> Looking outside, it feels more like a stew and dumplings day.
[09:35] <mungbean> hayfever is still really bad though :(
[09:35] <mungbean> after-effects of yesterday
[09:35] <bigcalm> Lasagna for dinner I think
[09:36] <mungbean> how many layers of lasagne is the acceptable amount?
[09:36] <mungbean> ongoing discussion with wifey ont his
[09:36] <bigcalm> Urk, dunno
[09:37] <bigcalm> It'll be my future mother-in-law making it. I wouldn't argue with her about how many it should be ;)
[09:37] <czajkowski> 4
[09:37] <bigcalm> lower!
[09:37] <mungbean> my wife did 1 or 2 until i suggested a bit more
[09:37] <czajkowski> no lower makes it an odd number
[09:38] <czajkowski> no likey the odds :p
[09:38] <czajkowski> 1
[09:38] <czajkowski> lordie
[09:38] <mungbean> she basically put the mince /suace in and layer on top
[09:38] <mungbean> like an italian pie top
[09:38] <czajkowski> eh no that's not how it's done
[09:38] <mungbean> no, now she puts more layers for me on my side
[09:38] <mungbean> and does it her way on her side
[09:38] <bigcalm> While looking for the correct spelling of lasagne, this popped up http://www.cookingclassy.com/2012/10/caprese-lasagna-roll-ups/
[09:38] <mungbean> just like the pizza
[09:39] <mungbean> i have no onions and v little tomato base
[09:39] <mungbean> in the more classic european style
[09:39] <mungbean> so we end up having very different looking halves of pizza
[09:40] <mungbean> walkers deep ridged crisps 6 pack for a quid...mmmm
[09:42] <bigcalm> I ordered a tailor made suit yesterday. So I'm not allowed to eat until after the wedding now
[09:43] <mungbean> i would like to see how a tailored suit comes out on me
[09:43] <mungbean> although off the peg in next is an excellent fit on me
[09:45] <bigcalm> I do fear I might have spent a little much on a 3 piece suit for the wedding. Just hope I get more use out of it than for just 1 day
[09:45] <mungbean> i hired one and got skanked royally
[09:46] <mungbean> big mistake
[09:47] <mungbean> anyone know of a fresh graduate looking for junior role?
[09:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> bigcalm: That looks lovely :-D making me feel hungry.
[09:48] <mungbean> or maybe someone with 1/2 yrs experience looking for next step
[09:48] <bigcalm> \o/
[10:02] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:02] <bigcalm> Morning davmor2
[10:03] <davmor2> bigcalm: how do
[10:03] <bigcalm> davmor2: poorer having been to Wolverhampton yesterday
[10:05] <davmor2> you came to wolverhampton and you did call in I'm disgusted ;)
[10:05] <bigcalm> davmor2: good weekend?
[10:05] <bigcalm> davmor2: hah, I did wonder if I would spot you in town
[10:05] <davmor2> bigcalm: yeap chilled out watching gavin and stacey
[10:06] <dwatkins> great show, that
[10:06]  * TheOpenSourcerer went to see the new Star trek film last night. Was really good. Loads of action.
[10:07] <mungbean> sent my wife to see the imax versino
[10:07] <mungbean> found a £15 charge on my credit card
[10:08] <bigcalm> We went to the 2D version. Much fun
[10:08] <davmor2> dwatkins: I can thoroughly recommend it for anyone who has seen it.
[10:08] <dwatkins> £15 doesn't surprise me for an IMAX showing.
[10:08] <mgdm> the tickets for the IMAX 3D one I saw were a tenner each
[10:09] <bigcalm> Next film we go to see will be Despicable Me 2
[10:09] <davmor2> bigcalm: I'm going to see if the lighthouse has it less loud than the cineworld means we enjoy the film over the migrane :)
[10:10] <bigcalm> davmor2: take ear plugs :)
[10:10] <mungbean> sit at the back
[10:11]  * TheOpenSourcerer can't wait for Despicable Me 2 too.
[10:13] <davmor2> mungbean: the problem with the cineworld is they have 10 screens in a building that should probably only have 6 and a sound system built for a building that size that has 3 screens.  It's about 50 decibels too loud.
[10:46] <joshmyers> hey guys, I need to regexp a .log file for "HDFS IO error", this just \HDFS IO error\ ?
[10:51] <mungbean> no sign of lightread getting a fix for the google reader july switch-off
[10:52] <bigcalm> joshmyers: grep "HDFS IO error" file.log
[10:53] <joshmyers> bigcalm: needs to be a regexp
[10:53] <joshmyers> using monit to regexp a log file for matches
[10:53] <joshmyers> i.e. HDFS IO error
[10:53] <joshmyers> and needs to restart the service if this matches
[10:53] <bigcalm> joshmyers: Looks okay then
[10:54] <joshmyers> ok ta
[10:59] <bigcalm> joshmyers: my mistake, it should be //
[10:59] <bigcalm> joshmyers: \ is an escape char
[10:59] <joshmyers> hokay, thx
[11:48] <mungbean> not only gloomy but freezing out there
[11:48] <mungbean> yesterday was pretty nice too
[11:53] <bigcalm> Sat/Sun were nice. Yesterday started okay but ended up like today
[12:05] <mungbean> the big flaggons of water for the water cooler have run out and nobody knows who to email about new ones :(
[12:05] <mungbean> the level of apathy in this workplace
[12:05] <mungbean> no wter since early last week
[12:10] <davmor2> mungbean: look at the flaggons of water
[12:11] <davmor2> or the machine tends to have contact details on it
[12:13] <mungbean> we're in a big company..so there's a lady somewhere who administers it
[12:13] <mungbean> most people who care/know have left
[12:13] <mungbean> and the others are just slurping from the tap
[14:12] <MooDoo> afternoon all
[14:12] <popey> yo
[14:12] <MooDoo> back in the uk popey ?
[14:13] <popey> ya
[14:13] <brobostigon> afternoonings MooDoo
[14:13] <MooDoo> hello brobostigon
[14:14] <brobostigon> my vps i had boybu + irssi + bitlbee on just became unresponsive, and had to force reboot, it, :(
[14:14] <brobostigon> byobu*
[14:14] <MooDoo> is this good enough for a gui on ubuntu server - sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends ubuntu-desktop
[14:15] <MooDoo> ?
[14:16] <popey> MooDoo: you'd get more than you'd probably want
[14:16] <brobostigon> 400odd days uptime wiped away,
[14:16] <popey> do you just want x and a simple desktop?
[14:16] <popey> mine is only 52 days
[14:16] <popey> ->  13    52 days, 00:17:05 | Linux 3.2.0-39-virtual    Sat Apr  6 14:59:17 2013
[14:16] <MooDoo> yeah
[14:16] <brobostigon> ok, not bad then.
[14:16] <MooDoo> xubuntu-desktop ?
[14:16] <popey> I'd probably use something like openbox or similar
[14:16] <MooDoo> ok thanks
[14:17] <brobostigon> lubuntu-desktop ?
[14:17] <popey> even that will pull in way too much
[14:17] <brobostigon> true, yes, loads of apps and other stuff.
[14:57] <bigcalm> mgdm: done any signing API commands?
[15:00] <bigcalm> mgdm: would I need anything more than this for creating a signature? md5(ClientID . Timestamp . fields... . ClientKey)
[15:01] <mgdm> I think that'll work, though you'll want to ensure the fields are sorted properly
[15:01] <davmor2> bigcalm: application name or is that covered by ClientID?
[15:02] <davmor2> bigcalm: ie you might have browser and an android/ios app
[15:03] <bigcalm> mgdm: it'll be sent as JSON and verified in the same order each time
[15:03] <bigcalm> davmor2: It's a web to web only system. There's no scope for mobile devices or manual use of the API
[15:04] <bigcalm> mgdm: I'm writing the API and the client to use it. So complete control at this point :)
[15:04] <mungbean> my 10.04 desktop is on 418 days atm
[15:04] <davmor2> bigcalm: okay then just throwing it out there incase you hadn't thought of it :)
[15:04] <bigcalm> davmor2: ta
[15:23]  * bigcalm pokes php.net for not working. Yay for mirrors
[15:24] <bigcalm> hash('sha256', $wibble) might be better than md5
[15:34] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: I doubt there is much point to the overhead for sha256
[15:34] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: what alternative then?
[15:34] <dogmatic69> it would be virtually impossible to build a rainbow table as you are hashing the timestamp, and if someone was able to figure out the various params they could use sha256 anyhow
[15:35] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: what exactly is it for?
[15:35] <dogmatic69> Just a token to validate the fields transferred?
[15:35] <bigcalm> Yes
[15:35] <bigcalm> And the timestamp is to limit replay attacks
[15:37] <mgdm> overhead is relative - I doubt it's going to be getting enough traffic that the difference between MD5 and SHA256 run times is going to be a significant factor
[15:37] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: add a salt and sha1 should be fine
[15:38] <dogmatic69> the timestamp is sort of salt, but a 30 / 40 char salt is prob better
[15:38] <bigcalm> I too didn't think that the overhead of sha256 was going to be an issue
[15:38] <dogmatic69> this is what cake does to stop form tampering which I guess is similar to what you want
[15:38] <dogmatic69> https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/blob/master/lib/Cake/View/Helper/FormHelper.php#L561
[15:39] <bigcalm> Yay csr
[15:40] <bigcalm> I thought that they had hash() back to front until I realised that it was a static method
[15:40] <dogmatic69> ye, that is a cake method
[15:40] <dogmatic69> you can configure the default hash type so usually Security::hash(foobar) is good
[15:41] <bigcalm> Makes sense
[15:41] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: The I think sha > 1 is just going to add time to the request for no gain
[15:42] <mgdm> but not a significant amount of time
[15:42] <bigcalm> Though even sha1 is considered better than md5?
[15:42] <mgdm> probably less than the TCP overhead to his DB server
[15:43] <bigcalm> We're talking about maybe 500 calls a day. I would be surprised if it were more
[15:44] <bigcalm> We can always include the API version as part of the payload or the URL. Allowing us to switch to a different method if required in the future
[15:46] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: where is AlanBell hiding
[15:47] <bigcalm> Oh how I love @Cumberholmes on twitter "I'm starting to suspect that John knows his new 'hatstand' is actually me in disguise, but is refusing to acknowledge me."
[15:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> czajkowski: He's on his way to darkest Wales - will be out of contact mostly until until Thurs I should think.
[15:48] <czajkowski> ah bugger was hoping he might like to have lunch wit myself and popey tomorrow in Farnham
[15:48] <bigcalm> mgdm: you'd better have some good weather for the weekend by the time Hayley and I get to Ed.
[15:51] <mungbean> do i have to claim my giffgaff reward points at the 6 month milestone?
[15:53] <mgdm> bigcalm: heh. When is it you're here again?
[15:53] <bigcalm> mgdm: Saturday to Tuesday. Though What we get done in that time is anybody's guess
[15:54] <mgdm> bigcalm: Hmmmm, I'm busy at t'weekend so I probably can't make it across until *maybe* Monday
[15:54] <mgdm> but if you're over here at all let me know
[16:01] <bigcalm> mgdm: will do. Not sure what Hayley has in mind for the break
[16:02] <bigcalm> I foresee a lot of rain in our future
[16:02]  * mgdm rolls eyes
[16:06] <bigcalm> Just looking out of the window right now...
[16:07] <brobostigon> can i copy a whole folder form root, to a user folder, then make it accessable for that user, to edit and exceute stuff inside it ?
[16:07] <bigcalm> cp -r foo bar; chown userName: bar
[16:07] <bigcalm> Something like that?
[16:07] <brobostigon> thatl work.
[16:08] <bigcalm> Erm, chown -r username: bar
[16:08] <bigcalm> Or something :)
[16:09] <daftykins> chown user:user -R /path/to/*
[16:09] <bigcalm> daftykins: 2nd user if it's the same as the 1st
[16:09] <bigcalm> +redundant
[16:09] <bigcalm> +is
[16:09] <daftykins> but then it'd come up as user:root
[16:10] <daftykins> no?
[16:12] <bigcalm> daftykins: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5710648/
[16:12] <daftykins> oh i get you, you still colon just don't repeat
[16:12] <daftykins> sorry, misunderstood
[16:12] <bigcalm> :)
[18:01] <daftykins> yay for SSH proxies
[18:01] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[18:01] <daftykins> reconfigured at a clients today so now i can SSH in via his file server and use a local browser to reconfigure any web admin'd devices at his \o/
[18:01] <MartijnVdS> 8-)
[18:02] <daftykins> in this case the fifth of eight WD 2TB HDDs in his RAID 6 died Friday =/
[18:02] <MartijnVdS> oops
[18:02] <daftykins> gogo advanced RMA with WD
[18:02] <daftykins> yeah the WD2002FYPS' models are dropping like flies >_<
[18:03] <MartijnVdS> Is haswell out yet?
[18:03] <daftykins> not that i know of
[18:03] <daftykins> lets check
[18:03] <MartijnVdS> June 3rd, according to most internets
[18:03] <daftykins> aww
[18:04] <daftykins> i saw motherboard previews on anandtech.com
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> Yeah, saw those too
[18:04] <daftykins> which is going a bit too far with excitement XD
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> I've already chosen one I wan
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> t
[18:04] <daftykins> :D
[18:04] <daftykins> i'm an Asus fan myself
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> Yeah, me too
[18:04] <daftykins> :D
[18:04] <daftykins> used to love Abit :(
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> Apparently, 1155-socket coolers will work on the 1150 socket because the holes for the cooler mount are in the same place
[18:05] <daftykins> makes sense
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> so I bought a CoolerMaster Seidon 120M
[18:05] <daftykins> just a Land-reconfiguration shouldn't change all that much
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> in anticipation
[18:05] <daftykins> :)
[18:05] <daftykins> that's risky, i'd wait for specific board support
[18:05] <daftykins> since they love putting all kinds of junk around the slots these days
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: I can always use it on my old i3
[18:06] <daftykins> s/slots/sockets/
[18:06] <daftykins> ah
[18:06] <daftykins> i just ordered my friends new ivy bridge setup
[18:06] <daftykins> he didn't care about waiting for Haswell
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: but the Seidon.. factory pre-filled maintenance free water cooling
[18:06] <daftykins> i7 3770K/16GB 2133MHz DDR3/nvidia GTX 680/samsung 256GB 840 pro SSD/2TB storage HDD
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> I considered buying ib now, but the socket change
[18:07] <daftykins> maintenance free? seems a bold claim
[18:07] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: they guarantee it for a few years at least
[18:07] <daftykins> yeah it is a bit of a dealbreaker for longevity
[18:07] <MartijnVdS> "Two year zero maintenance guarantee"
[18:07] <MartijnVdS> n ot a lot, but enough for me
[18:08] <daftykins> i always wanted to give water a go, mainly due to boredom
[18:08] <daftykins> but the trouble is, you're kinda only moving the fans in some ways
[18:08] <MartijnVdS> http://www.coolermaster.com/product/Detail/cooling/cpu-liquid-cooler/seidon-120m.html
[18:08] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: I also got a "Silencio" case from CoolerMaster, which has kind-of okay-but-not-great airflow
[18:08] <MartijnVdS> so moving the fan closer to the exhaust port is good
[18:09] <daftykins> =]
[18:12] <daftykins> i'm putting my friends setup into an Antec P183
[18:13] <daftykins> http://store.antec.com/Product/enclosure-performance_one_series/p-183/0-761345-81830-8.aspx
[18:13] <directhex> BADGERBADGER
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> http://www.coolermaster.com/product/Detail/case/mid-tower/silencio-550.html
[18:13] <daftykins> directhex: o hai
[18:13] <directhex> BADGERBADGER
[18:13] <daftykins> MUSHROOMMUSHROOM
[18:13] <directhex> BADGERBADGER
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> SNAAAKE
[18:14] <daftykins> ooooooooooooooh it's a snake
[18:14] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: that case looks nice, heavy-duty :) :)
[18:15] <directhex> i can't believe i spent ~£200 on keyboard/mouse for wife's birthday :|
[18:15] <daftykins> MartijnVdS: yeah heavy, but nicely thick skinned to reduce noise \o/
[18:16] <daftykins> aaand his graphics card will be 25cm long
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: Same with the Silencio, it comes with thick padding on the inside
[18:16] <daftykins> so it fits :O
[18:16] <daftykins> neat :)
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> I'm not going to bother with a separate GPU
[18:16] <daftykins> indeed gone are the days of putting in windows
[18:16] <daftykins> rather not be able to hear it :D
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> but the blinky fans!
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> *shudder*
[18:17] <daftykins> :D
[18:18] <shauno> I never understood windows.  That's where I breed dust bunnies.  watching seems rather indecent
[18:18] <daftykins> i can only say that sometimes it's handy for diagnosing something
[18:18] <daftykins> but the rarity of that makes it pointless :D
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: they have motherboards with numeric diagnostic LEDs now
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> and "Boot to BIOS" pins
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> and lots of other weird features you'll use once
[18:20] <shauno> reminds me of hours trying to track down "dma timeout" kernel errors, and eventually discovered my sb16 had fallen out
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> 8-)
[18:20] <daftykins> hah
[18:20] <daftykins> good times
[18:20] <daftykins> http://www.gainward.com/main/product/vga/pro/p00868/p00868_pic_6874f8e7b692b8ba.jpg
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> I remember one summer my XT started acting up
[18:20] <daftykins> getting that chunky GTX 680 4GB card for my mates' setup
[18:20] <shauno> and my amazement when pushing it back in resulted in music, rather than a panic
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> Weird hangs, weird savegame corruptions (yay lots of $$, etc.)
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> the DMA controller had hone
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> gone
[18:21] <daftykins> shauno: pushing it in whilst on? :)
[18:21] <shauno> well of course
[18:22] <daftykins> ah yes i was going to hook up a second input cable so i can use my screen(s) to setup this friends new PC
[18:22] <daftykins> although i suppose i could use my spare 19" samsung LCD instead
[18:22] <daftykins> but then stuff will look fancy on my screens too
[18:24] <daftykins> do i have another DVI, hmmz
[18:24] <daftykins> or i could try displayport for the first time ever! zomg
[18:25] <daftykins> if my cable wasn't still at my parents in my big spares box ¬_¬
[18:36] <daftykins> DVI it is
[19:21] <dllewellyn> afaict display port is just dvi with a different connector - like hdmi is dvi + audio
[19:22] <popey> kinda
[19:22] <popey> DP is HDMI without paying the license fee
[19:22] <dllewellyn> ergh @ wrong nick
[19:23] <daftykins> i just wanted to try it out for the first time ;)
[19:23] <daftykins> my twin 24" Dell LCDs have had it since i got them but no cards existed for years
[19:23] <daftykins> kristenbb: hey, how's it going?
[19:24] <kristenbb> hi
[19:24] <kristenbb> I'm fine, but my problem is still not solved
[19:24] <diddledan> it's annoying - both dp and dvi can carry analogue signals. so being enterprising I think with my dp system that I can plug in a dp-to-dvi and then a dvi-to-vga daisy-chained. it seems nobody makes a displayport to dvi also carrying the analogue signel
[19:24] <diddledan> eww @ speeling
[19:24] <diddledan> signel???
[19:24] <diddledan> signal**!
[19:25] <daftykins> well, HDMI and DVI use the same spec, displayport to DVI requires active conversion afaik
[19:26] <diddledan> I really should get my mac onto ebay
[19:26] <diddledan> means wiping it though, and finding the box out, and getting it shipped.. bah
[19:27] <daftykins> which one is it you're selling?
[19:28] <diddledan> one of the ancient black macbooks
[19:28] <diddledan> c2d t7700?
[19:28] <diddledan> erm 6 GB RAMs
[19:28] <diddledan> and 250GB HDD
[19:29] <diddledan> it's unfortunately too old to cope with mountain lion, so I'm expecting the return on investment to be slightly lower than had I sold it a year ago
[19:30] <daftykins> aww
[19:30] <diddledan> it's exactly one generation (a few months) too old
[19:30] <daftykins> what're you hoping to get for it?
[19:31] <diddledan> couple ton
[19:31] <diddledan> at most I guess
[19:31] <diddledan> it's been a while since I looked at second hand prices
[19:31] <daftykins> ^_^
[19:35] <daftykins> hrmm
[19:35] <daftykins> if you transfer via SFTP, is that ok for doing binary data transfer?
[19:35] <daftykins> i know FTP clients tend to give you ASCII/binary options
[19:35] <daftykins> but i don't know if WinSCP from a windows box -> a Linux host would be bad
[19:36] <diddledan> good question
[19:36] <daftykins> diddledan: that one can still take Lion then? just not ML
[19:37] <diddledan> yup
[19:38] <daftykins> i'm so tempted
[19:38] <daftykins> :D
[19:38] <popey> i use winscp between windows and linux a fair amount, works great
[19:38] <popey> "just works"
[19:38] <daftykins> popey: yeah, it's just that i'm helping someone setup a COD4 dedicated server and the readme says that fot FTP clients (which i know is different to SFTP) you must use binary mode
[19:39] <shauno> scp/sftp don't have an ascii mode.  that 7bit rot is way legacy
[19:39] <popey> gotcha
[19:39] <daftykins> ah good good :) it'll work happily then
[19:40] <popey> yeah, should do
[19:40] <daftykins> thanks guys
[19:43] <daftykins> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIdFLEKnuhY
[19:43] <daftykins> that's where i was yesterday if you're interested
[19:43] <daftykins> the island of Sark, near mine - day tripping with hire bikes
[19:43] <daftykins> that's the crazy cliff fall on the strip of land that connects Big Sark to Little Sark :>
[19:45] <shauno> I was in bratislava yesterday :)  but no bikes
[19:47] <shauno> but we did have deep-fried sheep cheese.  I think I'd have preferred bikes
[19:47] <daftykins> diddledan: what screen size one is it? sorry for all the questions :D if you could find its' comma model # e.g. "6,2" i'd be curious to look it up :>
[19:47] <shauno> I think the blackbook were only 13"
[19:48] <daftykins> ah cool :>
[19:48] <shauno> but they were usually the equivalent of the top-end white macbook for each given generation.  they didn't do black on the lower tiers
[19:49] <daftykins> yeah
[19:49] <popey> http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook/specs/macbook-core-2-duo-2.4-black-13-early-2008-penryn-specs.html
[19:49] <popey> one of them?
[19:51] <daftykins> seems so!
[19:54] <diddledan> daftykins: it's 13inch, and model MacBook4,1
[19:54] <daftykins> ebay seems to have them for a bit more than you expected
[19:54] <daftykins> i'm seeing ones still with 2GB RAM for £350+
[19:55] <diddledan> yes, popey that's the one
[19:55] <diddledan> \o/
[19:55] <diddledan> mine's got 6GB :-p
[19:55] <daftykins> indeedy
[19:55] <shauno> you'll mostly find 2 & 4GB, apple claimed they'd only take 4.  the reality was they couldn't take 8, and apple would only spec them with matched pairs
[19:55] <daftykins> however if you feel like forgetting the above and selling to me for £150 *whistle* ;)
[19:56] <diddledan> lol
[19:56] <daftykins> is the battery gone with age though?
[19:57] <diddledan> ebay has lots of bits of them but the first page doesn't actually have many complete units
[19:57] <daftykins> i searched for "macbook black 2008"
[19:57] <diddledan> the battery I replaced a while ago with a third-party - same with the psu
[19:58] <diddledan> new apple branded batteries are about 100£ in themselves
[19:58] <daftykins> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apple-MacBook-A1181-BLACK-13-3-2-4GHz-320GB-2GB-OSX-Lion-A391-/261221842786?pt=UK_Computing_Apple_Laptops_ET&hash=item3cd208ff62
[19:58] <daftykins> there's an example
[19:58] <diddledan> so I didn't have that kind of money available when I replaced it
[19:59] <daftykins> that would be an ace little system if you ditched the HDD for an SSD
[19:59] <shauno> wow.  I should try to put my 2007 back together ;)
[19:59] <diddledan> shauno: knowing you it's beyond "putting back together"
[19:59] <daftykins> XD
[20:00] <shauno> tis but a flesh wound :/
[20:00] <daftykins> :D
[20:00] <daftykins> alright food time
[20:00] <daftykins> left it a bit late again :S computers and IRC are bad, mmkay
[20:01] <diddledan> lol
[20:01] <diddledan> I do that at work
[20:01] <diddledan> often I'm eating lunch after 3
[20:01] <diddledan> >.<
[20:01] <daftykins> same with me
[20:05] <diddledan> so how long till I can use ubuntu-touch on my galaxynexus for reals? :-p
[20:05] <diddledan> by "use" I mean it must have a terminal emulator and ssh
[20:08] <diddledan> ok, this is odd - two links [1] shows a hand holding the box of a samsung galaxy s4, and [2] shows that the sgs4 is the size of the box in horizonal and vertical planes. How fscking huge is that thing?! [1] http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samsung-Galaxy-S4-4G-Brand-New-In-Box-Sealed-/221232402062 [2] http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samsung-Galaxy-S-4-GTI9505-16-GB-Black-Mist-Unlocked-Brand-NewWith-Invoice-/171047219048
[20:09] <diddledan> those dimensions would put the sgs4 at bigger than the galaxy note?!
[20:13] <diddledan> I think the hand in [1] was photoshopped
[20:18] <shauno> diddledan: does this help?  http://cl.ly/image/0T2I1O461s12
[20:19] <diddledan> interesting
[20:19] <diddledan> don't you love that you can get laptops with 500GB of RAM? </troll> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acer-V3-571G-15-6-Core-i3-2-4GHz-6GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-Windows-8-Laptop-/360646687445?_trksid=p2055223.m2215
[20:20] <shauno> hawt
[20:21] <shauno> I wonder though, isn't ssd techincally RAM ?
[20:22] <diddledan> o_O
[20:22] <diddledan> not really, no
[20:22] <diddledan> SSD is permanent storage. RAM is transient
[20:22] <shauno> nah, nvram is permenant, dram is transient
[20:22] <diddledan> permanent in terms of "until the disc says no"
[20:24] <diddledan> even nvram is transient - it disappears as soon as power is removed
[20:24] <shauno> you're positive about that one ?
[20:25] <diddledan> you're probably thinking something along the lines of eeprom
[20:26] <shauno> no I'm thinking like flash, which is nvram
[20:29] <mgdm> Flash was developed from EEPROM
[20:30] <mgdm> (but is still NVRAM, so you're both right)
[20:31] <shauno> I just think it's curious that the RAM moniker does fit SSD.  it is memory, and it is random-access, in that you can pick an address and pull it, rather than having to seek to it
[20:32] <shauno> it's obviously not what we mean when we say ram, but I don't think it's going to be long before we're teaching kids what these terms mean, by explaining what they used to mean
[20:35] <daftykins> it's NVRAM for a reason - 'non volatile'
[20:36] <shauno> yeah.  I think he's thinking of sram vs dram, where you can hold sram with a battery, but dram needs the controller to keep pinging it
[20:38] <shauno> anyway, pointless, because I highly doubt that laptop has a 500GB ssd at <£400.  just struck me the terms don't work so well anymore
[20:38] <daftykins> :D
[20:38] <daftykins> terms?
[20:39] <daftykins> i had a Uni prof. that refused to call it 'RAM' he'd call it random access store
[20:39] <daftykins> i liked that approach
[20:57] <shauno> four crates of junk and not a single ps/2-usb adaptor.  not sure if I need a new keyboard, or moar boxes of junk
[20:58] <daftykins> hahaha
[20:58] <daftykins> PS/2 is so much better than USB =/
[20:58] <daftykins> i think because it's lower level
[21:00] <shauno> until you come across a machine that doesn't have ps/2 ports.  which is where I'm stuck right now
[21:00] <daftykins> :(
[21:01] <popey> huzzah! new toy has shipped
[21:01] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00BQ5KHJW/
[21:02] <daftykins> :O interesting
[21:03] <dwatkins_> I have one of these, it's great: http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Trent-IMP120D-Thunderbolt-Blackberry/dp/B004CHMP50/
[21:03] <diddledan> holy crap they're cheap right now
[21:03] <dwatkins_> charges whilst it's in use, too - I'm going to see if I can run my Raspberry Pi off it.
[21:04] <daftykins> would i install libstdc++6 to get libstdc++.so.6 ?
[21:05] <daftykins> oh it's already on
[21:06] <popey> wonder how long the Pi would run for..
[21:09] <shauno> if my math works, 18.5 hours if you've got no load on the usb
[21:12] <daftykins> can anyone help me install libstdc++6 for a 32-bit arch?
[21:13] <daftykins> at least i think that's what's going wrong with a program i'm trying to run
[21:14] <shauno> I haven't actually looked at multiarch yet, but I'd assume you're using a pre-built binary that's hardwired to /usr/lib instead of looking in /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/ ?
[21:14] <daftykins> ": error while loading shared libraries: libstdc++.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
[21:15] <daftykins> i guess so, 64-bit arch server with the above error
[21:16] <shauno> 'ldd filename' should show you with a path
[21:16] <daftykins> where filename is?
[21:16] <daftykins> the .so.6 ?
[21:16] <shauno> the binary you're trying to run
[21:17] <shauno> it'll show what it's linked against
[21:17] <daftykins> libstdc++.so.6 => not found and libgcc_s.so.1 => not found
[21:17] <daftykins> that was handy :)
[21:17] <shauno> bah
[21:18] <daftykins> i copied those out, the rest it found
[21:18] <daftykins> mostly in /lib32/
[21:18] <popey> people run arch on servers?
[21:18] <daftykins> ?
[21:18] <daftykins> i'm helping this guy try to run a dedicated game server
[21:18] <popey> oh, i thought you meant "arch linux" but you meant "64-bit architecture"
[21:19] <daftykins> yes sir-ee
[21:19]  * diddledan won't mention the 40 smth gentoo systems at work
[21:20] <daftykins> if it helps, a centOS guide refers to:
[21:20] <daftykins> yum -y install  glibc.i686 libgcc.i686 libstdc++.i686 zlib.i686 screen.x86_64
[21:21] <diddledan> in debland it's glibc:i386
[21:22] <diddledan> or similar
[21:22] <diddledan> ergh, I should be going to bed
[21:24] <shauno> hm, more humble goodness for my steam
[21:26] <diddledan> was that the humble sale or the humble bungle?
[21:27] <shauno> bundle .. not sure if it's news or not, I've been away
[21:27] <popey> it only launched today
[21:33] <diddledan> so.. kvm.. is it possible to run hyper-v inside kvm?
[21:35] <diddledan> vmware supportes nested hypervisors, but I donno how they go about that - it might be a fudge by only allowing vmware inside vmware
[21:36] <daftykins> i solved it, i was being incredibly thick
[21:36] <diddledan> no comment :-p
[21:36] <daftykins> the program i had downloaded, a Call of Duty 4 dedicated server file set, had the libs i wanted in the folder
[21:36] <daftykins> so i symlink'd them to /usr/lib/
[21:36] <diddledan> oops
[21:36] <daftykins> then they were visible and now the program works
[21:36] <daftykins> \o/
[21:38] <shauno> the vmware one isn't a fudge; they'll virtualize the vt-x instructions, so it's available to the guest.  I know vbox doesn't do this (and claims it's not possible).  for kvm, I don't know
[21:39] <bigcalm> notch paid $5,000 for HIB8. Do you think he just puts it on company expenses?
[21:39] <diddledan> lol
[21:39] <diddledan> prolly
[21:42] <diddledan> my idea was to run kvm windows 8 which in-turn ran the vms downloadable from modern.ie (yes, there are linux downloads listed, but only for vbox which I refuse to use becasue 1) it's oracle and 2) it's oracle - I'm already annoyed ubuntu hasn't switched to mariadb yet :-p)
[21:44] <daftykins> XD
[21:45] <shauno> I can't check at the moment because my openstack install is messy beyond belief :/  but google is looking optimistic
[21:47] <shauno> still debating whether to wipe that one and start again, or look at other approaches, but that's for another day
[21:49] <diddledan> ok, lets try it out. reboobing (and hopefully coming back online again)
[21:53] <shauno> tonight's task is to find out why this procmail rule isn't matching, because I've been getting fresh teens every 10 minutes all weekend :/
[22:05] <daftykins> shauno: fresh teens 0o
[22:10] <sebsebseb> hi
[22:10] <shauno> argh, it's still not working.  it'd help if spamd didn't split headers across multiple lines
[22:23] <popey> hi sebsebseb
[22:25] <sebsebseb> popey: see my pm :)
[22:26] <ocean22> hi guys. i use ubuntu 13.04 64 bit. my internet was working flowless since the install. Just now my mozilla and google chrome both stopped connecting to internet and giving me the following error message."Your router does not have an active Internet connection.
[22:26] <ocean22> If your router has previously been working then click here to retry. If this does not work then please contact your Internet Service Provider.
[22:26] <ocean22> If you have just installed your router then you may need to set it up. Click here to access the router's web configuration pages. You will need to enter you admin password then start the Wizard setup when prompted". no clue how to fix this. windows is working fine. can some one help
[22:26] <ocean22> pease
[22:29] <diddledan> well that worked - couldn't even get linux to boot
[22:29] <diddledan> downloading 13.04 iso and trying again
[22:30] <diddledan> shauno: fresh teens, eh?
[22:30] <diddledan> shauno: got any spare? ;-)
[22:31] <shauno> if I get this rule working, I'll turn it into a forward.  be careful what you wish for!
[22:31] <diddledan> lol
[22:32] <diddledan> this mobo sucks nuts
[22:32] <diddledan> it's got a weird thing gigabyte call "hybridefi"
[22:32] <daftykins> ah yep
[22:32] <diddledan> it's evil
[22:32] <daftykins> i read about that sucker, in fact was it you with the system that wouldn't boot a flash drive?
[22:32] <diddledan> quite possible
[22:33] <daftykins> sorta, 2 nights ago maybe
[22:33] <diddledan> I'm having just that issue right now
[22:33] <daftykins> i might've been going on about updating BIOS
[22:33] <diddledan> :-)
[22:33] <daftykins> but the person i helped was already on F11
[22:33] <daftykins> AMD board?
[22:33] <diddledan> yup
[22:33] <daftykins> rings a bell ^_^
[22:34] <diddledan> booting off cd successfully gets grub up but thereafter it goes black and the cd stops whirring
[22:34] <daftykins> tried with nomodeset?
[22:34] <diddledan> ooh, nope
[22:35] <diddledan> I'll try that next
[22:35] <diddledan> just waiting on the 13.04 to downlaod
[22:35] <daftykins> =]
[22:57] <diddledan> I think I'm gonna have to leave it for tomorrow.. it's midnight. I should be sleeping
[22:58] <daftykins> :)
[22:58] <daftykins> there's that
[22:58] <daftykins> diddledan: when might you be on to try it again?
[22:58] <daftykins> i'd be curious how you get on
[22:59] <diddledan> I'm usually about most evenings.
[22:59] <daftykins> cool, might be about too then
[22:59] <daftykins> gn sir o/
[22:59] <diddledan> I sometimes sneak in during office hours when my boss isn't watching :-p
[22:59] <daftykins> ^_^
[23:00] <daftykins> i love all the typos of live for lice
[23:01] <daftykins> "i'm trying this licecd"
[23:02] <diddledan> "you know you're alice when you can't stop itching" :-p
[23:03] <daftykins> hehe


[19:03] <ari-tczew> could someone help with fix FTBFS with gcc 4.5 in xdm merge? bug 682196
[19:03] <ubot4`> Launchpad bug 682196 in xdm (Ubuntu) "Merge xdm 1:1.1.10-3 (universe) from Debian unstable (main) (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/682196


[03:30] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL341ad1eb693c: Add Note for not installed packages] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL341ad1eb693c
[04:13] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL82b2c5d83229: Remove uneeded whitespace] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL82b2c5d83229
[04:40] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL09548cc70ab9: Add oxford comma] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL09548cc70ab9
[04:40] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL8adce9c0f811: Fix capitilization of Muon] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL8adce9c0f811
[04:40] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALfa242464a8af: Generalize revesing sort order] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALfa242464a8af
[04:40] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALf12daf8fcb49: Add how to get toolbar back] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALf12daf8fcb49
[04:40] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL0af67f8734d7: Scrub errornous CD refrence] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL0af67f8734d7
[21:51] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALd57a1c6f2834: Add Appendix G to Progress.md] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALd57a1c6f2834
[21:55] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALd502d18d9dbb: Update Progress.md] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALd502d18d9dbb
 @tsimonq2 you able to test something for me in a bit?  Also, which distro are you using as a devel platform currently (for building the devel environment)
 wxl: ^ same question
[22:34] <wxl> @teward001 i can help test. what i'm using for development is a container running in a xenial (!) linode
[22:34] <wxl> needless to say, server
 screw your xenial :P
 trying to get the debian arcanist stuff working with newer
 but it's a pain :?
 might be simpler to just git clone everything :/
 as a basis for the package build
 but i think i'mma name the source package 'arcanist'
[22:40] <wxl> git clone everything? what a WEIRD idea. so novel. not like it's IN OUR DOCUMENTATION OR ANYTHING? XD
 @wxl i mean as a basis to PPA-package the requisites ya ninny
 that way we have more updated stuff
 *salts wxl*
[22:41] <wxl> oh ok XD
[22:42] <wxl> or we could just do a normal git clone and have the container git pull on a cron job....
 wxl: Maybe, but the problem is im' trying to make an easier to utilize script that will set up a dev env for someone
 not build the container on our infra
 because we dont have the resources for that currently
[22:46] <wxl> i see.. that's unfortunate because i think that would be a big feature
 wxl: stage 1 is make a script
 stage 2: get infra dedicated for the 'shells' or containers
 stage 3: automate container deployment
 because if we have the *script* we can use that as part of, say, an ansible playbook or such to generate a container and set up the base requisites for an env
 but that's still a different issue
 and security is a thing
 AKA
 go read my wall of text regarding this that I was CC'd on and so was the council
[22:50] <wxl> yeah i fell asleep last time i tried
 'tis your problem xD


[15:56] <Svenstaro> Anybody alive in here at all?
[18:35] <bencrisford_> hey
[18:55] <Svenstaro> Anybody alive in here at all?
[18:58] <bencrisford_> HI
[18:58] <bencrisford_> im alive :D svenstaro :)
[18:58] <Svenstaro> Uh hi there.
[18:59] <Svenstaro> I'll just make my own Edubuntu now. I'm sick of the uncertainity and silence.
[18:59] <bencrisford_> lol
[18:59] <Svenstaro> I really wanna create a distro suited for schools, not just some random apps put into a LTSP.
[18:59] <bencrisford_> dont leave us!
[19:00] <bencrisford_> work on edubuntu
[19:00] <bencrisford_> why not help me with eskole?
[19:00] <Svenstaro> Well I wanna, but if Cannocial is gonna keep quite I'll make my own.
[19:00] <Svenstaro> What's that?
[19:00] <bencrisford_> http://dev.abruptus.dyndns.org/projects/eskole
[19:00] <bencrisford_> s'gonna rock! :P
[19:01] <bencrisford_> but we're gonna push and get edubuntu back up and running
[19:01] <bencrisford_> get some fresh peeps
[19:01] <bencrisford_> and the old'uns working
[19:01] <bencrisford_> we were gonna organise a meeting, and advertise it
[19:01] <Svenstaro> No use, we need some people who are willing to pull all-nighters for Edubuntu's sake or whatever the name is gonna be.
[19:01] <bencrisford_> im willing to :)
[19:02] <Svenstaro> It's about dedication. I'm certainly willing to do it.
[19:02] <Svenstaro> I know how to build distros so that's a plus I guess.
[19:03] <bencrisford_> well im willing to put alot in
[19:03] <bencrisford_> if a few others are
[19:03] <bencrisford_> then theres a driving force behind it
[19:03] <bencrisford_> and thats all it needs to get started
[19:03] <Svenstaro> You can't count on too many people I'm afraid.
[19:03] <bencrisford_> i can bring in fresh peope
[19:04] <bencrisford_> im sure you know people too
[19:04] <bencrisford_> thats the whole point of the meeting idea
[19:04] <bencrisford_> advertise it across mailing lists, forums etc.
[19:04] <bencrisford_> so we get fresh people, original people and everyone plans/ideas get heard
[19:04] <Svenstaro> Don't do that before there is a base.
[19:05] <Svenstaro> Edubuntu needs to be almost completely scratched.
[19:05] <Svenstaro> Too much is wrong right now.
[19:05] <bencrisford_> whaddya mean by base?
[19:05] <bencrisford_> and scratch?
[19:05] <Svenstaro> A base means there is a firm fundament that incorporates all the basic ideas behind the new Edubuntu.
[19:05] <Svenstaro> Scratch all that stands right now, it will only lead to the wrong directions. We need a fresh start.
[19:06] <Svenstaro> The current Edubuntu is direction-less.
[19:06] <bencrisford_> thats what this meeting idea is aboiut
[19:06] <bencrisford_> a fresh start
[19:06] <bencrisford_> a brainstorm
[19:06] <Svenstaro> Yes, well we better get together soon then.
[19:07] <Svenstaro> Is there a mailing list except for the official Edubuntu one for this?
[19:07] <bencrisford_> edubuntu-devel?
[19:09] <Svenstaro> Is that one actuall alive?
[19:11] <Nubae> its kind of alive
[19:11] <Nubae> but we need some real fresh blood
[19:11] <Nubae> or it will be dead come next release
[19:14] <Svenstaro> I'll start a thread on edubuntu-devel. I hope I get some responses. I am actually quite fast in hacking something workable together if that's what it takes.
[19:14] <Svenstaro> It's time for the revolution, finally...
[19:32] <Nubae> Svenstaro: it is indeed, nice to see that kind of enthusiasm, many of us here are just sceptical at this point, a revolution is gonna be required
[19:32] <Nubae> Svenstaro: u should talk to Laserjock if u really want to start hacking/packaging/maintaining/triaging
[19:33] <Svenstaro> Frankly I don't care. If people are too stubborn to drop what went wrong just because it was hard work once, I'll just take my direction. I don't mean to say that I don't want to cooperate, quite the opposite actually, but I *really* think a semi-fresh start is required.
[19:33] <Svenstaro> By semi-fresh I mean we might as well use Alternate's LTSP and that's about it.
[19:34] <Nubae> yeah, I agree :-) still communicate with Laserjock, he's really been doing edubuntu by himself for the last 2-3 release cycles
[19:35] <Svenstaro> Does he check the lists?
[19:50] <Nubae> yeah he does
[19:50] <Nubae> but u can contact him directly too
[19:51] <Nubae> laserjock at ubuntu.com I believe
[20:17] <bencrisford_> hi again
[20:17] <bencrisford_> sorry my internet broke
[20:26] <bencrisford_> Svenstaro, Nubae: after I disconnected - did i miss anything
[20:27] <Svenstaro> We had a party and you were invited but didn't attend.
[20:30] <bencrisford_> :(
[20:30] <bencrisford_> :P
[20:44] <Svenstaro> Check yer mails
[20:54] <bencrisford_> ok :)
[20:54] <bencrisford_> Svenstaro:
[20:54]  * bencrisford_ has no new mails :(
[20:54] <Svenstaro> Check again
[20:55] <Svenstaro> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2009-May/002876.html
[20:55] <bencrisford_> lol ok
[20:58] <bencrisford_> i dnt get why i never got it :(
[20:58] <bencrisford_> got it :D
[21:04]  * bencrisford_ has replied svenstaro
[21:04]  * Svenstaro has received
[21:05]  * bencrisford_ smiles :)
[21:05] <Svenstaro> As I said, a name change is a last resort.
[21:06] <Svenstaro> nubae, check los mail0s
[21:07] <Ahmuck> Svenstaro: u here?
[21:08] <bencrisford_> Svenstaro: so you got my message? thats odd
[21:08] <Svenstaro> Ahmuck, of course.
[21:08] <Svenstaro> bencrisford_, why?
[21:08] <Ahmuck> Svenstaro: i'm dumping ubuntu ltsp on the first of june
[21:08] <bencrisford_> svenstaro: dw, i just got told it didnt work :/
[21:09] <Ahmuck> there are issues that need to be addressed before ubuntu ltsp will work in edubuntu
[21:09] <Svenstaro> Ahmuck, so you are the Edubuntu maintainer?
[21:09] <Svenstaro> Or rather, Ubuntu LTSP?
[21:09] <Ahmuck> define maintainer
[21:09] <Svenstaro> Person who takes care of stuff :D
[21:10] <Ahmuck> locally yes, for ubuntu, no
[21:10] <bencrisford_> the look-after-er Ahmuk :P
[21:11] <Ahmuck> local school districts are getting citrix (ms) and ms office, etc. for free
[21:11] <bencrisford_> Svenstaro: Ugh!  Whaddya make of this, i could post to the list fine the other day: http://pastebin.com/m657ddbc2
[21:11] <Svenstaro> Oh dear
[21:11] <Svenstaro> Ahmuck, where is that?
[21:11] <Ahmuck> part of the reason i've decided to dump it, because i'm to busy and don't have time to train somebody through ltsp and it's problems
[21:11] <Ahmuck> 1. need gui tools
[21:12] <Ahmuck> 2. firefox keeps crashing
[21:12] <Ahmuck> 3. need tools that allow admin globally as well as fine grained per user
[21:12] <Ahmuck> 4. messages, etc. are broadcast to everyone ... printing, etc.
[21:13] <Ahmuck> 5. user changes sound and everybodys sound changes, etc.
[21:13] <Ahmuck> i've run into a host of issues with ltsp on a recent upgrade.  it's not something i'd be willing to risk employment deploying.  with ms a least you have someone to blame
[21:15] <Ahmuck> if edubuntu want's to make a go at it, they need programming support to create tools that teachers can do simple things with to be effective
[21:16] <Svenstaro> Heh. Well, this kind of was my point as well.
[21:16] <Ahmuck> i'd even go so far to say, specify hardware
[21:16] <Ahmuck> i'm still interested in it, but it's got problems
[21:16] <bencrisford_> what kind of programming support?
[21:16] <Ahmuck> and programming support needs to listen to users
[21:17] <Ahmuck> someone to program gui interfaces.  the local high school typing teacher is not going to open a command line to add a user
[21:17] <Svenstaro> Exactly my thoughts.
[21:17] <bencrisford_> what exactly is ltsp?
[21:17] <Svenstaro> And a gui for that is easy enough. For starters, it could be done with zenity and some cheesy bash scripting
[21:17] <bencrisford_> (soz for the noob questions im new round here :P)
[21:17] <Ahmuck> another very important feature is a default wine configuration and some tested windows apps that can be used in edbuntu
[21:18] <pygi> ok, what are you talking about?
[21:18] <Ahmuck> linux terminal server project
[21:18] <pygi> still the same old forking edubuntu? :)
[21:18] <Ahmuck> no offence, but forking it would do 2 things.  either create something that worked, or put a fire under some people so that edubuntu worked well
[21:19] <Ahmuck> bbl
[21:19] <pygi> I am not necessarily against it, just asking
[21:19] <pygi> I just came in :p
[21:20] <Svenstaro> pygi, I take it you read my mail?
[21:20] <pygi> Svenstaro: you've got the answer
[21:20] <bencrisford_> answer to what :P
[21:20]  * bencrisford_ confused :(
[21:20] <Ahmuck> we keep loosing school districts to citrix, and in a year, there won't be room for ubuntu ltsp or linux anywhere
[21:21] <pygi> bencrisford_: he asked about the future of edubuntu
[21:21] <bencrisford_> ah yeah
[21:21] <bencrisford_> we were discussing a meeting earlier
[21:21] <pygi> bencrisford_: lets wait with that
[21:21] <bencrisford_> yeah i agree
[21:22] <pygi> UDS is coming soon, at least me and Jonathan will be there to find out what's happening
[21:22] <bencrisford_> ah ok
[21:22] <Svenstaro> When is it?
[21:22] <alkisg> Ahmuck: have you actually used citrix? It was totally unusuable for my school, so we decided to use ltsp.
[21:22] <pygi> Svenstaro: next week
[21:22] <Ahmuck> people ask ltsp questions in edubuntu because many times in #ltsp they get refered somewhere else
[21:22] <Svenstaro> I see
[21:23] <Ahmuck> alkisg: i know it's unusable, but a 1200 seat high school just dropped all open source and went with citrix and ms office because someone offered it for free, turn key
[21:23] <Ahmuck> ur loosing market share, and it's not a battle you can afford to loose
[21:23] <alkisg> OK, "just" is the keyword here, I'd like to see them after trying it for 2-3 months...
[21:23] <Ahmuck> they have
[21:23] <Ahmuck> it's not "just".
[21:24] <alkisg> In 45 minutes of trying, I got *only one* student out of 8 to open excel remotely for 5 minutes. The rest of the time there were only problems.
[21:25] <alkisg> Apps kept crashing, response was really slow, logging in was slow, there was no desktop...
[21:25] <Svenstaro> Mh
[21:25] <Ahmuck> quote "
[21:25] <Ahmuck> buntu and LTSP on top of it. Any educational
[21:25] <Ahmuck> apps my schools want, I'll install for them. They need my help because
[21:25] <Ahmuck> they don't know how to do it. I want t
[21:25] <Ahmuck> " end quote
[21:26] <Ahmuck> alkisg: i'm crashing all over here with the new 9.04
[21:26] <Ahmuck> hplip crashes our system
[21:26] <alkisg> Well, I'm not. I haven't had a crash for the whole year
[21:26] <alkisg> 8.10 and then 9.04
[21:26] <Ahmuck> someone prints out something and it's broadcasted to the entire class
[21:26] <alkisg> In all the classes...
[21:27] <alkisg> Ahmuck: some of the problems you mentioned are easily solved, e.g. for the audio you just need to remove the users from the audio group
[21:27] <alkisg> Others can't be solved easily, sure, but I think it's better than citrix
[21:27] <Ahmuck> why?  if classmate a want's sound and classmate b doesn't shouldn't that be an option, easily done by opening the sound and moving the bar?
[21:28] <Ahmuck> again, i'm swamped with work and don't have time to visit the instructor who needs to change it
[21:28] <alkisg> Ahmuck: sure, if you remove them from the audio group you get what you're saying
[21:28] <alkisg> I.e. student A gets a different mixer from student B
[21:28] <Ahmuck> why are users by default in the audio group?
[21:28] <Ahmuck> that's the questions that should be asked
[21:29] <alkisg> Because gnome-system-tools is not LTSP aware... I agree with you here
[21:29] <Ahmuck> which comes back to user managment
[21:29] <Ahmuck> my primary #1 problem is making customizations for user managment
[21:29] <alkisg> But I prefer user/software management with linux than with windows, its *much* easier
[21:29] <Lns> Hey all
[21:29] <alkisg> ...and I've been programming windows for the last 17 years
[21:30] <alkisg> Hey Lns
[21:30] <Lns> Ahmuck: IMHO you should *not* be using Jaunty in a production environment, especially trying to tie it into LTSP and other bits!
[21:30] <Lns> That's akin to using Windows 7 on all your machines right now
[21:31] <Lns> You have to expect it to break. It's only been out for a little bit.
[21:32] <Ahmuck> using 8.10 was better, but still had issues
[21:32] <pygi> Ahmuck: I am one of the original authors of Edubuntu Cookbook
[21:32] <Lns> Ahmuck: right. I'm still using 8.04 LTS at all my sites, and it's bulletproof.
[21:33] <pygi> and the problem is that while everything was slightly dying, so did all of the original authors left the community
[21:34] <Ahmuck> from a edubuntu ltsp, we need ... a central server, user managment, personlized profiles for apps, ie .firefox - bookmarks, etc.  global managment for apps, ie firefox addons, security, downloads, wallpapers,
[21:34] <Ahmuck> and pre-configured wine
[21:34] <Lns> Ahmuck: Edubuntu != LTSP
[21:34] <Ahmuck> *shrugs* i agree
[21:35] <alkisg> Ahmuck: and do you get those with citrix?!!! Personalized profiles for apps?
[21:35] <Ahmuck> and drop in the ltsp room and if it's ubuntu specific i get the same response
[21:35] <Ahmuck> ltsp != ubuntu
[21:35] <Lns> you're right, it's not.
[21:35] <Ahmuck> alkisg: don't know.  the school calls a local it company to manage it
[21:36] <Lns> Ahmuck: All of these things work together in a software ecosystem. No one project leads all of them.
[21:36] <Ahmuck> there are no local it linux companies.  we did have a local company that brought in a linux admin to set some servers and ie up, but he resigned after it was done, leaving the company stuck with no one to run it
[21:36] <Lns> Ahmuck: where are you located?
[21:37] <Ahmuck> in a community of 1200, with a company that produces products globally, (they are located here for "cheap" labor) imagine the impression that was left when that happened
[21:37] <Ahmuck> anyhow, i'll bbl.  feel free to msg me
[21:38] <Svenstaro> Oh dear, I sparked quite some conversation there. Good though.
[21:38] <Svenstaro> I hate seeing projects die by *not* talking about them.
[21:38] <Lns> exactly.
[21:39] <Svenstaro> Still there seems to be some controversy about Edubuntu's new direction, which is a good thing IMO.
[21:39] <Svenstaro> Personally, I want it to be equally suited for LTSP purposes as for workstation environemnts.
[21:39] <pygi> Svenstaro: how would you contribute to the new Edubuntu? :)
[21:39] <Lns> Svenstaro: define "it" specifically. :)
[21:40] <alkisg> Svenstaro: I totally agree with your email, and I'll try to help in the summer when I have some free time.
[21:40] <Svenstaro> pygi, I would even start up a new distro if required. I have a decent bit of Linux knowledge to pull off the basics. I just want to get somethign going at all so others can join in.
[21:40] <Svenstaro> Lns, it, the new Edubuntu.
[21:41] <Lns> Svenstaro: define "the new Edubuntu"
[21:41] <pygi> Svenstaro: you certainly won't have to do it alone
[21:41] <pygi> if it'll happen
[21:41] <Lns> I think a distribution is completely overkill
[21:41] <pygi> Lns: why so?
[21:41] <Svenstaro> Lns, the Edubuntu that the old (current) Edubuntu is going to become after we decide on what it should become. Yes, that was recursive but what I said was my own humble opinion only :)
[21:41] <Lns> pygi: what is the benefit?
[21:42] <Svenstaro> pygi, just saying, I'd be willing to invest substantial time.
[21:42] <Lns> Svenstaro: hahaha ;)
[21:42] <nubae> Svenstaro: nice post
[21:42] <Lns> So we're stuck at the same place we were at about 3 months ago..we don't really *know* what Edubuntu is
[21:43] <pygi> Lns: we'll decide what Edubuntu is after we know the current state of it
[21:43] <Svenstaro> For starters, I think Edubuntu should lose the sense of filling a general role. It isn't for that stuff.
[21:43] <nubae> the problem is other distros are running circles around edubuntu now
[21:43] <pygi> Svenstaro: have I already asked you if you know py?
[21:43] <Svenstaro> pygi, py...thon?
[21:43] <pygi> yes
[21:43] <nubae> I'm working mostly with opensuse-edu, and I can tell you honestly that it makes edubuntu look laughable
[21:43] <Svenstaro> Of course I do, I give after school lessons on it.
[21:44] <nubae> part of that is because of the freedom given to developers to make it what they want it to be
[21:44] <Lns> nubae: what's the diff between the two projects?
[21:44] <nubae> edubuntu is restricted in that sense
[21:44] <pygi> Svenstaro: that's good
[21:44] <nubae> and will not change till that restriction is gone
[21:44] <nubae> Lns: go and install an opensuse-edu live dvd and see for yourself
[21:44] <Lns> nubae: is opensuse-edu its own dist?
[21:45] <nubae> just one example is Sugar, which is an icon on the desktop and launches, works and every activity within it works and is the latest
[21:45] <nubae> yes it is
[21:45] <nubae> and in my opinion I agree, edubuntu has failed there
[21:45] <nubae> all the other -edu addons are distros in and of themselves
[21:46] <nubae> opensuse-edu has 2 gigs of educational content
[21:46] <nubae> all of it works, all of it amazing stuff
[21:46] <nubae> everything is gui installabale and managable
[21:46] <Lns> nubae: is it open source? Can we integrate it ?
[21:46] <nubae> or u can use the command line if you prefer
[21:46] <nubae> everything is open source yes
[21:46] <nubae> there is something called opensuse studio
[21:46] <nubae> I believe I mentioned this once before
[21:47] <nubae> you can go in and pick and choose components and then create your own iso
[21:47] <nubae> thats then writable to cd, dvd, usb or whatever
[21:47] <Lns> IMHO that is all pretty redundant. Why would you need all of that?
[21:47] <Lns> ease of installation?
[21:47] <nubae> about 2 things to click on and its installed
[21:47] <nubae> ltsp just works
[21:48] <nubae> and is easily managable
[21:48] <nubae> ldap just works
[21:48] <Svenstaro> How does K12 compare, by the way?
[21:48] <nubae> samba just works
[21:48] <nubae> sugar, which is my area, just works
[21:48] <Lns> nubae: doesn't all of this stuff 'just work' with ubuntu?? I haven't had issues with installing/managing LTSP at all for a long time.
[21:48] <nubae> in ubuntu sugar is stuck at 0.82 and has no chance of developing due to debian policy
[21:48] <nubae> heh, no
[21:48] <Lns> All of the GUI apps that come with Ubuntu work fine with LTSP, LTSP really doesn't matter
[21:49] <nubae> ldap doesnt just work on ubuntu
[21:49] <nubae> ltsp is about the only thing
[21:49] <Lns> i agree, ldap would be nice
[21:49] <nubae> have u seen the jaunty complaints?
[21:49] <Svenstaro> So it seems most people here agree that Edubuntu currently just sucks more than a black hole :D
[21:49]  * Lns sihgs
[21:49] <Lns> jaunty, imho, is still beta. you can't expect things to 'just work' with a version that just came out.
[21:50] <nubae> unless something really drastic happens, I'm no longer interested in development on this platform, and I know many others feel the same
[21:50] <nubae> jaunty is RELEASED
[21:50] <nubae> its not beta
[21:50] <Lns> nubae: i said IMHO. Did Vista 'just work' when it came out?
[21:50] <nubae> check the topic
[21:50] <Lns> did XP, or 2k, or 98/95? no
[21:50] <nubae> are we really going to compare vista to ubuntu?
[21:51] <Lns> you're comparing openSuse to it,...
[21:51] <nubae> yeah I wouldn compare opensuse to vista either
[21:51] <Lns> i'd be willing to wager that opensuse has its fair share of issues with versions it releases at first...
[21:51] <nubae> but anyway, unless something changes with policy, ubuntu will stay as it is
[21:51] <nubae> its not what I'm talking about
[21:51] <nubae> I'm not mentioning the teething problems
[21:52] <nubae> ok... lets turn it around
[21:52] <nubae> whats good about edubuntu right now?
[21:52] <nubae> edubuntu, not ubuntu
[21:52] <Lns> umm, we have a community..that's about it ;)
[21:52] <nubae> ah, ok, well barely
[21:53] <nubae> You should step into the opensuse-edu channel and lurk and watch as the work happens, that is a community
[21:53] <nubae> actual work happens
[21:53] <nubae> daily
[21:53] <nubae> with many members contributing
[21:53] <nubae> it grows
[21:53] <alkisg> I agree with nubae here. I wish edubuntu had the same goals as opensuse-edu.
[21:53] <Svenstaro> I think schools except a longer release cycle than Edubuntu has. I actually thought about making the new 'Edubuntu' stand on Debian but I'm afraid of the licensing and Debian's strict policy on that stuff.
[21:53] <pygi> Svenstaro: be careful when saying that someone agrees that edubuntu sucks
[21:54] <pygi> most of the people like to talk, but when it comes to action most fail
[21:54] <pygi> so wait and see :)
[21:54] <nubae> pygi: +1
[21:54] <Lns> Svenstaro: you have a choice of release cycles - stick with the LTS versions, you'll be a happy camper
[21:54] <Svenstaro> Personally, I'm a big Arch Linux guy but I wouldn't use a rolling distro to base a school distro.
[21:54] <pygi> Svenstaro: I use archlinux right now too
[21:54] <nubae> heh, when hardy came out it was the worst release yet
[21:55] <nubae> partly because firefox 3 was still in beta
[21:55] <Svenstaro> pygi, I'm sorry :/ I'm actually quite eager to do *something*
[21:55] <nubae> but still
[21:55] <pygi> Svenstaro: I know you are, just saying from experience
[21:55] <nubae> there are many of us that have put our nose to the grind stone in here though
[21:55] <Lns> nubae: doesn't matter, nobody with any sense of experience rolls a dist. to a brand newly released version. That's just naive
[21:56] <nubae> but we've been forced to stay within very restrictive limits and the tools are not there to move forward efficiently or easily
[21:56] <Lns> not in an environment where so many people use it and depend on it daily, anyway.
[21:56] <nubae> and I just think its easier in opensuse-edu
[21:56] <pygi> I think schools don't want to upgrade every half year
[21:56] <Lns> pygi: i *know* my schools don't
[21:56] <nubae> well, its about building a product
[21:56] <nubae> and right now edubuntu is not a product
[21:56] <Lns> nubae: why is it about building a product?
[21:56] <nubae> its just this addon which really is just a bunch of programs
[21:57] <nubae> because thats what schools want
[21:57] <Lns> all of the pieces are there, why do you need something that says "Hey I'm educational ubuntu! use me!"
[21:57] <Svenstaro> I agree there, nubae
[21:57] <Lns> nubae: I disagree
[21:57] <Lns> schools want something that works. They want support, and they want someone to depend on to fix it when it breaks. They want to know how to use it.
[21:57] <nubae> well, thats why Novell has made a deal with HP to carry its educational distro on its laptops
[21:58] <pygi> Svenstaro: HedgeMage is a cool kiddo, she's one of the original authors of edubuntu cookbool
[21:58] <nubae> and why canonical has pretty much dropped any concept of education on ubuntu
[21:58] <Svenstaro> Hey HedgeMage :)
[21:58] <nubae> I've not heard a peep from an official ubuntu person in many months
[21:58] <HedgeMage> hi, guys :)
[21:58] <Lns> nubae: Ubuntu != Canonical
[21:58] <nubae> thats not the point
[21:58] <Lns> nubae: you're comparing opensuse/novell to ubuntu/canonical. it's not the same
[21:58] <pygi> Lns: if we went forward with something new, I know of at least two companies willing to do support
[21:59] <Lns> pygi: you know 3, you mean. ;)
[21:59] <nubae> why is that not the same?
[21:59] <pygi> Lns: what's the third one?
[21:59]  * Lns raises hand
[21:59] <nubae> Lns company
[21:59] <pygi> Lns: :P
[21:59] <nubae> hell I would too
[21:59] <HedgeMage> :)
[21:59] <Svenstaro> Is Scott in herE?
[22:00] <nubae> but right now, we're rolling out opensuse-edu, running the latest sugar with kiwi-ltsp
[22:00] <Svenstaro> Who just replied to mah mail?
[22:00] <Lns> nubae: it's not the same because canonical obviously doesn't care much for edubuntu, but we stand anyway
[22:00] <nubae> ah yes, there u are right
[22:00] <nubae> scott is a serious contributor to LTSP and edubuntu, but like others I believe he lost faith
[22:00] <nubae> he now hangs on the ltsp channel
[22:01] <nubae> dont know if he's even in here
[22:01] <nubae> he's not
[22:01] <nubae> sigh...
[22:01] <nubae> this just makes me so sad
[22:01] <Lns> we lost a lot of ppl because edubuntu used to mean easy ltsp installation.
[22:01] <nubae> its like watching a flame go out
[22:01] <nubae> yep edubuntu should be a distro
[22:01] <Lns> nubae: doesn't mean we can't use different fuel
[22:02] <Lns> nubae: yep? who are you responding to?
[22:02] <nubae> u
[22:03] <nubae> easy ltsp installation = edubuntu as a distro
[22:03] <Lns> I'll bbl, have a meeting
[22:04] <Svenstaro> So many conflicting opinions again. The people who worked on Edubuntu for long say "Fix it up", I say decide on a direction (for now!) and excel in that direction before tackling new ones, others say just let it die.
[22:05] <pygi> Svenstaro: here's the thing
[22:05] <Svenstaro> Also, making a bootable ISO, really isn't all that hard.
[22:05] <pygi> we know we need to do something
[22:05] <pygi> and we'll do it
[22:05] <Svenstaro> I'm building another distro right now and it really isn't all that hard, just takes time.
[22:05] <pygi> Svenstaro: we'll have to decide what direction to go, and as always not everyone will like it
[22:06] <nubae> its actually even easier if the tools are available... opensuse studio I'm not sure if its gpl or not, but open build service is
[22:06] <pygi> but the point is to create a healthy community in the long term
[22:06] <Svenstaro> I'm this short of just deciding for myself and see who will follow.
[22:06] <pygi> Svenstaro: haven't we agreed that you'll wait for a week and a half? :P
[22:06] <nubae> and that allows u to build packages for any distro and any plaform including arm by just uploading a spec file
[22:06] <Svenstaro> pygi, yes :(
[22:06] <nubae> I'm here, but won't touch anything, not even my fatclient script until I see some real action
[22:07] <pygi> Svenstaro: thanks :)
[22:07] <nubae> thats my position
[22:07] <nubae> I work with opensuse-edu for now
[22:07] <Svenstaro> From what I get to hear all around, everybody is waiting for the next person to actually get the hands dirty.
[22:07] <pygi> Svenstaro: not true
[22:08] <Svenstaro> Should we decide so, I'll happily be the person to throw the first stone here.
[22:09] <Svenstaro> I really think we should get the LTSP thing straight. It will be the hardest goal, so a workstation might be a better approach at first but that is a lot less appealing.
[22:09] <pygi> Svenstaro: I agree, but we should take the iterative approach
[22:10] <pygi> we can't change years of nothingg to something in a few days
[22:10] <Svenstaro> pygi, that's probably right. You mean start with the smallest problem?
[22:10] <pygi> Svenstaro: yes, for now
[22:10] <pygi> first release will be a challenge, as we need the infrastructure setup, some rules and stuff
[22:10] <Svenstaro> That would be a theme based workstation approach in my book.
[22:11] <pygi> probably, yes
[22:11] <Svenstaro> By theme I of course mean physics, chemistry, biology, etc.
[22:12] <pygi> I'm not sure about you, but I think DVD approach would be way better too
[22:12] <Svenstaro> Of course it is.
[22:12] <Svenstaro> Honestly, and that might sound cruel, I don't care too much about people without DVD drives at this point :/
[22:13] <Svenstaro> The people who consider having a lab with LTSP clients would have a DVD drive.
[22:13] <Svenstaro> There should be a CD version but mainly for installing.
[22:13] <pygi> Svenstaro: I agree
[22:57] <Svenstaro> Bye everyone, talk again tomorrow.


[07:39] <pablasso> stupid question, i made some users with useradd, but the prompt for them looks horrible, it looks like 'sh-3.1$', even though i copied the same .bashrc to their home that im using on the root account with a beauty prompt, what could it be?
[07:49] <halcyonCorsair> does anyone here know much about snmp?
[08:00] <avatar_> whats your problem?
[08:03] <halcyonCorsair> i want to add some 3rd party mibs
[08:03] <halcyonCorsair> and then look up the information they reference
[08:11] <halcyonCorsair> help anyone?
[08:24] <kraut> moin
[08:26] <avatar_> halcyonCorsair__: mbrowse - a SNMP MIB browser
[08:28] <halcyonCorsair__> avatar_: does it let me add 3rd-party mibs?
[08:28] <avatar_> halcyonCorsair__: you can open 3rd-party mibs in mbrowse
[08:30] <halcyonCorsair__> ok
[08:31] <halcyonCorsair__> can i get snmpwalk to show the names of stuff, rather than iso.<IP_ADDRESS>.61.1.1 kind of thng?
[10:02] <captbaritone_> anyone about?
[10:05] <avatar_> !ask
[10:05] <ubotu> Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question :)
[10:32] <CrummyGummy> Hi, any idea what this is?
[10:32] <CrummyGummy> Can't exec "/tmp/sun-java6-bin.config.4051": Permission denied at /usr/share/perl/5.8/IPC/Open3.pm line 168.
[10:32] <CrummyGummy> open2: exec of /tmp/sun-java6-bin.config.4051 configure  failed at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/ConfModule.pm line 58
[10:32] <CrummyGummy> It seems to show up quite often in installs.
[10:51] <soren> CrummyGummy: Is your /tmp a separate partition mounted with noexec, perhaps?
[10:53] <CrummyGummy> soren: yes
[10:53] <soren> And you're still curious why it won't execute scripts in /tmp ? :)
[10:53] <soren> "Can't exec "/tmp/sun-java6-bin.config.4051": Permission denied at  /usr/share/perl/5.8/IPC/Open3.pm line 168.
[10:53] <soren> "
[10:53] <soren> It can't possibly be more clear than that :)
[10:54] <CrummyGummy> nope, now I'm curious if its important. I wa under the impression that having noexec mount for scripts is a good way to do things...
[10:54] <soren> You've mounted it noexec. Hence, if something tries to execute something there... It won't work.
[10:54] <soren> ...and apparantly the package in question extracts stuff into /tmp and tries to execute something there.
[10:57]  * CrummyGummy is off to change the mounting options.
[10:58] <soren> Feel free to file a bug against the package, though. It's bound to cause problems for others as well.
[11:00] <CrummyGummy> I'll do that, thanks.
[11:02] <CrummyGummy> chmod 766 /tmp/ should fix the security problem.
[11:02] <soren> Er.. no.
[11:02] <soren> ...but it will likely make a lot of stuff blow up in your face :)
[11:03] <CrummyGummy> really, there weren't any problems (besides above) when it was mounted noexec. How is this so different?
[11:21] <soren> CrummyGummy: Revoking execute privileges on /tmp from anyone but root?
[11:22] <soren> CrummyGummy: Um, it'll only make every other user's attempt at doing pretty much anything in /tmp fail.
[12:33] <frippz> is there a way to import a csv-export file from a Windows 2000 Server DNS-server into BIND?
[12:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> frippz, does the server use AD?
[12:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> if its a non-AD server it will be saving to a bind compaitible config file
[12:35] <frippz> well, I'm not entirely sure. this is just a zone that I'm exporting
[12:35] <frippz> the win2k-server is not a primary dns
[12:36] <Kamping_Kaiser> the above is all i know about windows and dns server :)
[12:36] <frippz> ok :)
[12:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> :)
[12:41] <zul> morning
[12:41] <frippz> hmm, well there must be a migration guide somewhere on the web for this
[12:44] <Kamping_Kaiser> frippz, long shots, but try #bind and ##windows
[12:45] <frippz> Kamping_Kaiser: thanks, will give that a go as well
[12:45] <Kamping_Kaiser> good luck
[12:52] <susscorfa> i just instaled apache and latex2html on a ubuntu machine but there are latex2html files in the /var/www is there any good reseason for that or where should i pose this question
[19:22] <randomwalker> hi, i have a bunch of sites running on the same machine, and because of this apache seems to take like 10 seconds to start
[19:22] <randomwalker> not sure why
[19:23] <randomwalker> any idea how i can make it start faster?
[19:25] <sommer> randomwalker: you might check which modules you have loading and make sure you have to have them.
[19:26] <sommer> ls /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/
[19:26] <randomwalker> sommer, thanks, just checked, looks like only a few basic modules
[19:26] <sommer> from my experience I've had mod_perl cause Apache to start slower than normal... upgrade of memory helped that though :)
[19:26] <randomwalker> basically i didnt' change the ubuntu defaults
[19:26] <randomwalker> thing is, when there's only 1 site it loads immediately
[19:27] <randomwalker> so i'm thinking its redoing everything for each site
[19:27] <sommer> you might double chech your vhosts...
[19:27] <randomwalker> what should i check for?
[19:27] <sommer> good question
[19:28] <randomwalker> its ok, no big deal, i was hoping there was an easy fix
[19:28] <sommer> you might also disable all but one than re-enable them one at a time to see if it's a specific one causing the slowness
[19:28] <randomwalker> ah, good idea, thanks
[19:30] <sommer> you could also search on optimizing apache... I've tweaked some of the Min/MaxSpareServers settings and had good results before
[19:30] <sommer> but you'll definitley want to be careful doing that... could have a negetive affect under laod
[19:30] <sommer> *load rather
[19:31] <randomwalker> oh ok
[19:31] <davidlondon> i'm a bit stuck, trying to set up a 2 interface lan at work with an ubuntu server and 3 xp machines
[19:34] <davidlondon> eth0 connects to the net via adsl modem and eth1 is the internal lan-should eth0 be dhcp?
[19:37] <davidlondon> ?
[20:27] <davidlondon> anyone know a good guide for a 2 inteface server install
[20:31] <mralphabet> davi^TAB^TAB
[20:31] <mralphabet> wth, stay around for an answer why don't you
[20:39] <sommer> oh sweet... autocomplete in irc!!!  Woot and stuff
[20:39]  * sommer feels like noob
[20:40] <sommer> mralphabet: just think if he hadn't left I would have kept copy and pasting peoples names... heh
[20:41] <sommer> lamont: ScottK, I've added a Mail Filtering section to the system docs.  Is it cool if I send it to you for review?
[21:25] <mralphabet> sommer: hah!  well don't let me stop you from your copy / paste fun . . .
[21:49] <dthacker-work> The file-print server and easy-business server blueprints seem dormant.  Are there any plans for these around Hardy?
[21:52] <mralphabet> dthacker-work: I believe so, yes
[21:53] <dthacker-work> mralphabet: are there other more current documents I should be looking at?
[21:53] <mralphabet> dthacker-work: I am not sure, I just remember them talking about those things after gutsy release
[23:24] <mariocesar_bo> Hello, I just install Ubuntu Server just few seconds ago ... I am getting Fatal Errors when I try to use sudo. like $sudo ls, outputs: sendmail: fatal: open /etc/postfix/main.cf no such file or directory
[23:25] <mariocesar_bo> hello, any help?
[23:53] <Triplee23> Hi, anyone with knowledge on sysctl.conf?
[23:55] <leonel> man sysctl.conf ?
[23:56] <Triplee23> Yes, i know but it is not working. I am trying to permanently change the value of net.ipv4.igmp_max_memberships but every time I boot the value is reset to 1. Any idea on how to manage this?
[23:58] <Triplee23> I have added this to sysctl.conf "net.ipv4.igmp_max_memberships=4" but this does not help. sysctl.conf is run during boot by /etc/rcS.d/S17procps.sh


[12:23] <muelli> is today the final freeze still?
[13:21] <jbicha> yes
[13:29] <muelli> so I better wait with installing a new laptop until later today? -.-  Or does it not matter that much?
[13:32] <jbicha> we don't release for another week but there won't be many changes now
[13:43] <muelli> I've just tried to install the current daily live image with a btrfs on LUKS.  It failed :(  It couldn't install grub, because GRUB_CRYPTODISK or so isn't set.
[16:18] <muelli> hrm. how do I install btrfs-convert on the current daily live cd? Neither btrfs-progs nor btrfs-tools seem to be ship it
[17:26] <muelli> ah. it was removed. :(  http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/b/btrfs-progs/btrfs-progs_4.12-1/changelog