[00:14] <pleia2> The new edition of the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter is now available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue224
[00:26] <Unit193> Point to that in #ubuntu-beginners-team ?
[00:30] <pleia2> voila!
[00:30] <pleia2> btw, I'm traveling next weekend so we need someone else to play editor
[00:30] <pleia2> leaving at the break of dawn friday morning, not coming back until very late sunday night
[00:30] <Unit193> See? It did help :D
[00:30] <pleia2> s/next/this
[00:30] <pleia2> :)
[00:31] <Unit193> (I didn't do it because I wasn't sure if there was a reason not to) I'll volumteer not to be editor, but I may submit blog posts if you think you'll need them
[00:32] <pleia2> lol
[00:32] <pleia2> yeah, always need people submitting posts :)
[00:35] <pleia2> phew, release is done and templates are rotated
[00:35] <pleia2> took me about an hour
[00:35] <pleia2> releasing is not a quick process!
[01:14]  * holstein high-fives everyone :)
[01:14] <pleia2> ^5
[01:44]  * Pendulum makes a mental note not to be in this channel in post-op drug hazes ;-)
[06:53] <MooDoo> hello all
[07:05] <philipballew> hello!
[07:05] <philipballew> MooDoo,
[07:10] <MooDoo> howdy
[10:12] <NRWlion> hatschussa


[12:49] <shawarma> @schedule copenhagen
[12:49] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
[03:19] <dragonco> ...
[04:53] <freeflying|away> @schedule Shanghai
[04:53] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 08 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 01:00: Documentation Team | 21 Jun 04:00: Technical Board
[09:22] <x92> Hello!
[09:24] <jenda> hello x92
[09:26] <x92> New project by Ubuntu :)        Xubuntu 6.06 (Dapper Drake)
[09:27] <jenda> hm?
[09:28] <x92> http://www.xubuntu.org/
[09:29] <x92> I want to try it out... maybe THIS works on my server mahine :) because Ubuntu 5.10 and 5.05 doesn't work on it :S only Windows systems are working on my server machine
[09:31] <jenda> x92: could I ask you to join the channel #xubuntu ?
[09:31] <x92> okay!
[09:31] <jenda> They will probably be able to help you better there - I'm in there too, if you need me.
[09:31] <x92> but can i get support for ubuntu on this channel?
[09:32] <jenda> Not really - this channel serves for meetings - #ubuntu is the main support channel.
[09:33] <x92> aha...okay
[09:33] <x92> when the meeting will come :P
[09:35] <jenda> The schedule of meetings is here: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
[09:35] <jenda> @schedule Prague
[09:35] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
[09:35] <jenda> x92: there is a VERY important meeting here in 23 minutes.
[09:36] <x92> Okay I will be here !!
[09:36] <x92> but...
[09:36] <x92> (event)
[09:36] <x92> Ubuntu Development Team Meeting
[09:36] <x92> Start: 08:00
[09:36] <x92> End: 09:30
[09:37] <x92> time is 10:37 here :D
[09:37] <jenda> where is here?
[09:37] <x92> estonia
[09:37] <x92> GMT +2
[09:37] <jenda> @schedule Tallinn
[09:37] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Tallinn: 08 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 20:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 23:00: Technical Board
[09:38] <x92> aha...okay :D
[09:39] <jenda> OK, x92, I don't want to sound rude, but the meeting coming up is an Ubuntu development meeting - and since neither of us is a dev - I'd suggest we don't disturb, OK? :)
[09:39] <x92> shure :) i just watch the smart talking :P
[09:44] <dholbach> good morning
[09:45] <G0SUB> hello, dholbach :)
[09:46] <dholbach> heya G0SUB
[09:46] <mvo> hello G0SUB! how is your project going?
[09:46] <G0SUB> mvo: you know better :)
[09:46] <mvo> G0SUB: haha :)
[09:48] <ajmitch> G0SUB: almost finished then? :)
[09:49] <G0SUB> ajmitch: heh, no. just about to start in fact :)
[09:56] <mdz> good morning folks
[09:56] <sladen> x92: just  sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop on your server box
[09:56] <mvo> hello mdz!
[09:56] <mdz> everyone here?
[09:56] <ajmitch> hi mdz
[09:56] <dholbach> hello
[09:57] <siretart> hi
[09:57] <Mithrandir> EHLO
[09:57] <fabbione> morning
[09:57] <Kamion> morning
[09:58] <Fujitsu> -ERR
[09:58] <pitti> hello
[09:58] <x92> sladen: okay.. downloading ;)
[09:58] <mdz> Keybuk,seb128,doko,heno,infinity,sfllaw,BenC,ogra,iwj,Riddell: ping
[09:58] <iwj> Hello.
[09:58] <dholbach> mdz: seb128 is on holidays.
[09:58] <sfllaw> mdz: Pong.
[09:58] <mdz> dholbach: oh, yes
[09:59] <doko> mdz: pong
[09:59] <mdz> JaneW: anyone other than seb128 not expected?
[10:00] <JaneW> mdz: not afaik
[10:00] <mdz> dholbach: could you ring ogra?
[10:00] <dholbach> mdz: i will do that
[10:01] <mdz> Kamion: could you try riddell and keybuk?
[10:02] <Kamion> ok
[10:02] <mdz> SMSed Ben
[10:03] <mdz> Kamion: oh, heno is in your calling radius as well
[10:03] <Kamion> Keybuk's phone is ringing ... and ringing ... and ringing
[10:03] <dholbach> I left a message on ogra's mobile.
[10:03] <mdz> the UK has one of the most reasonable times for this particular meeting, ironically
[10:04] <Kamion> I think Keybuk was up late driving edgy
[10:04] <Mithrandir> Scott logged off at around ~0300 last night, so he could well be sleeping.
[10:04] <Mithrandir> (0300 his local time)
[10:04] <infinity> Yeah, Scott was up late wrangling the opening of edgy with me.
[10:04] <mdz> dholbach: care to start us off?
[10:05] <dholbach> this week (done): gnome 2.14 updates to dapper-updates, bugtriage, general catching up
[10:05] <dholbach> this week (todo): gnome 2.15 and merging, more bug triage, writing specs
[10:05] <dholbach> next week: gnome 2.15 and merging, more bug triage
[10:05] <mdz> dholbach: how are you doing on your specs for paris?
[10:05] <Kamion> left messages for Keybuk and Riddell; phoning heno
[10:05] <dholbach> mdz: starting off and have some plans with Michael - but not much progress yet
[10:06] <Kamion> heno will be with us shortly
[10:06] <mdz> everyone should have a substantial number of specs (say 5-8) for Paris by the end of the week (i.e. tomorrow)
[10:07] <mdz> if you're short of ideas, please talk to me sooner rather than later :-)
[10:07] <mvo> should we try to limit ourself to 5-8? or is it ok to have ... more :) ?
[10:07] <mdz> mvo: more is always fine, though it's not clear how many it will be possible to schedule
[10:07] <Mithrandir> would it be possible to get a bunch of the old spec suggestions removed too?
[10:07] <mdz> Mithrandir: removed from where?
[10:07] <Mithrandir> the spec tracker in LP
[10:08] <Mithrandir> there are some there which are bogus
[10:08] <mdz> I don't think so
[10:08] <mdz> the idea is that we should only need to pay attention to specs which are targeted for a release or a meeting
[10:08] <mdz> and that the list of all specs will be a swamp
[10:08] <mdz> but feel free to mail launchpad with suggestions
[10:09] <heno> sorry for being late
[10:09] <Keybuk> mdz: re e-mail, I had deliberately left one spec not added to the meeting, because I think it's edgy+1
[10:09] <mdz> dholbach: are you confident about meeting that target?
[10:09] <dholbach> mdz: I'll get cracking on it with full speed
[10:10] <mdz> ok
[10:10] <mdz> thanks dholbach
[10:10] <mdz> doko: next?
[10:11] <doko> - this week (monday bank holidy)
[10:11] <doko> - toolchain updates for edgy
[10:11] <doko> - openoffice.org: preparing 2.0.2 l10n packages for dapper, rosetta discussions with carlos, preparing 2.0.3 for edgy, builds for amd64 again (no java, gtk crashes, must be gtk bug).
[10:11] <doko> - SoC bug
[10:11] <doko> - need to do: specs, SoC
[10:12] <mdz> doko: 2.0.2 l10n packages?
[10:12] <mdz> hmm
[10:12] <pitti> doko: erm, we don't have bank holidays in .de :) (that was Pentecost)
[10:12] <fabbione> * doko has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <-
[10:12] <mdz> indeed
[10:12] <mdz> we'll come back to him when he reconnects
[10:12] <mdz> fabbione: you're up
[10:12] <fabbione> * sparc: working on t1000. Got it installed yesterday and helping davem to get his box up for full speed d
[10:12] <fabbione> ebugging. got access to the 4 core Niagara today.
[10:12] <fabbione> * specs: most of the specs i will be working are leftovers from dapper. Need to remove dust from them. Unl
[10:12] <fabbione> ikely to have them all ready by deadline.
[10:12] <fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: updated ocfs2 and working on GFS2 userland (kernel is already done) while waiting for sp
[10:13] <fabbione> arcs to reboot or build kernels..
[10:13] <fabbione> * last week: release, release party, drunk, drunk.. more drunk.. more drunkness.. fun.. profit, sparc, spa
[10:13] <fabbione> rc64, more profit..
[10:13] <fabbione> * next week: sparc till dapper release.
[10:13] <Kamion> fabbione: hand over some of the profit
[10:13] <mdz> fabbione: since you'll be working on your specs remotely and not at the meeting, the deadline is not as critical.  the sparc work is more important of course
[10:13] <fabbione> Kamion: ehehe
[10:14] <doko> sorry, daily disconnect from my provider
[10:14] <fabbione> mdz: yeps.. i will still be coordinating with jbailey, neuralis and infinity.
[10:14] <fabbione> mdz: they will be my gw for some of the specs
[10:14] <mdz> fabbione: for your specs, just target them to dapper rather than adding to Paris
[10:14] <mdz> fabbione: unless you really need us to talk about them without you
[10:14] <Mithrandir> s/dapper/edgy/, I guess?
[10:14] <infinity> s/dapper/edgy/?
[10:14] <fabbione> mdz: some of them are shared, like cluster, server and mubuntu
[10:14] <mdz> yes, edgy
[10:15] <fabbione> mdz: people can still talk.. i will find a way to be "there"
[10:15] <fabbione> Keybuk: i have one ;)
[10:15] <fabbione> theoretically..
[10:15] <fabbione> anyway
[10:15] <fabbione> mdz: will do as much as possible.. sparc first
[10:16] <mdz> fabbione: if they aren't proposed for Paris by the deadline it will be problematic to schedule them; if they really need to be discussed there then ask the people who will be there to help get them entered so you can continue on sparc
[10:16] <doko> fabbione: you did mention this week some sparc toolchain issues?
[10:17] <fabbione> mdz: ok will do.
[10:17] <mdz> fabbione: thanks
[10:17] <fabbione> doko: let's take this on -toolchain
[10:17] <fabbione> mdz: thanks to you
[10:17] <mdz> doko: now that you're back...you mentioned about 2.0.2 l10n for dapper?  I thought dapper already had 2.0.2 l10n
[10:18] <mdz> doko: disconnected again?
[10:18] <doko> mdz; it has, but including the import from rosetta, there are some conversion problems, and currently a build problem, because we do not scale with the number of language packs
[10:19] <mdz> doko: 2.0.2-2ubuntu5 seemed to build
[10:20] <doko> mdz: -ubuntu12 not yet
[10:20] <doko> 2.0.2-2ubuntu5 doesn't have the updates from rosetta
[10:20] <mdz> doko: is -l10n actually any different between ubuntu5 and ubuntu12?
[10:20] <mdz> I see
[10:21] <mdz> doko: what is "SoC bug'?
[10:21] <doko> mdz: hrm, nothing, just the to do line :-/
[10:22] <mdz> doko: meaning SoC mentoring?   what is the 'bug'?
[10:22] <JaneW> doko: you can;t call SoC a bug! :P
[10:23] <G0SUB> lol
[10:23] <doko> mdz: sorry, please ignore that line
[10:23] <mdz> ...ok
[10:23] <mdz> heno: next?
[10:23] <heno>  * Websites: gave ubuntu.com a minor facelift and tidying up
[10:23] <heno>  * Accessibility: working on lots of new specs, SoC, website section, support section in the forums. We are starting to see a trickle of users now trying it out and seeking
[10:24] <heno> support
[10:24] <mdz> heno: are you more or less finished proposing specs for paris, or have more planned?
[10:24] <heno> all done :)
[10:24] <mdz> ok, great
[10:25] <heno> I realise there were quite a few this time
[10:25] <mdz> heno: did you receive the email I CCed you on regarding the forums (from sounder I think(?
[10:25] <heno> yes, there are social and technical aspects
[10:25] <heno> with the technical being fairly easy
[10:26] <heno> coordinating tabs and such
[10:26] <mdz> we seem to have one forums person in paris
[10:26] <mdz> not necessarily someone who deals with the infrastructure, though; they say they are a moderator
[10:26] <JaneW> yes Roald Hopman
[10:26] <heno> I have a good communication with the forum staff on the social level as well though, so I can help there
[10:27] <mdz> we should slot in at least one discussion about how to encourage more crossover between the forums and other parts of the community
[10:27] <mdz> heno: could you register a spec to ensure that goes on the agenda?
[10:27] <heno> mdz: yes
[10:27] <mdz> thanks
[10:27] <mdz> infinity: next?
[10:28] <infinity> last week: lots of tete-a-tete with soyuz folk about correctly closing dapper, and getting edgy open.  Also got dapper-updates (soyuz) and dapper-security (dak) live and mostly happy.
[10:28] <infinity> this week: opening edgy with a full toolchain bootstrap, then letting open the floodgates for building everything else uploaded, then catching up on some less critical security backlog.
[10:28] <silbs> mdz: one of the reasons to get forum people in Paris was to discuss forums governance. Mark and I have talked about this with Ryan Troy in the past, just tryingt omove things forward. Do you need a spec registered for that?
[10:28] <mdz> silbs: I suppose we can schedule things manually, but putting in a spec is the best way to ensure that it won't be overlooked (and it'd be a good idea to write up the outcome anyway, provide a means for people to subscribe to participate, etc.)
[10:29] <mdz> infinity: specs for Paris?
[10:29] <infinity> mdz: What if there's nothing other than "run the infrastructure nearly full time and maintain my pet packages" that really interests me?
[10:30] <infinity> mdz: I'll poke neuralis about some ubuntu-server spec stuff, though.
[10:30] <mdz> infinity: if you'll be around after the meeting, let's talk about it
[10:30] <infinity> Since I intend to still own that.
[10:30] <infinity> Do let's.
[10:30] <mdz> ok, thanks
[10:30] <infinity> I'm here all night making sure edgy opens.
[10:30] <mdz> iwj: next?
[10:31] <iwj> last week: release testing.  firefox themes.  chasing ancient dpkg bug with >=2 cargo cult wrong fixes (46530 etc.)
[10:31] <iwj> this week: firefox <IP_ADDRESS>.  investigating breezy ff security options.  Thinking about edgy; I hadn't realised the target was 5-8 specs; I'll take a more shallow approach.
[10:31] <iwj> todo: investigate some ff <IP_ADDRESS> for breezy-security.  Firm up, write up and register some of these spec ideas.  When will the decisions about prioritisation be taken ?
[10:31] <mdz> infinity: it can't be night for you; it's night for me ;-)
[10:31] <Kamion> iwj: prioritisation> next week
[10:31] <infinity> mdz: It'll be night when I'm done. :)
[10:31] <Kamion> iwj: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-June/000145.html
[10:31] <mdz> iwj: for the deadline, all you need are abstracts for discussion topics
[10:32] <iwj> Right.  But if I really want to push something I need to beef up the rationale ASAP.
[10:32] <mdz> iwj: in edgy, please merge the human firefox theme as default; once it's been tested in edgy, sabdfl wants it backported to dapper
[10:33] <iwj> mdz: That will mean having a different firefox in dapper-updates and dapper-security.
[10:33] <mdz> iwj: or merging the change into -security
[10:33] <iwj> Indeed.
[10:34] <iwj> I'm not sure how our users would feel about us doing a theme update in -security.
[10:34] <mdz> I expect that we have few if any desktop users who use -security without -updates, to be honest
[10:34] <Kamion> by sabdfl's own definitions, doing that in -security would be wrong ;-)
[10:34] <mdz> and almost as few non-desktop users
[10:35] <Fujitsu> I'm both a server and desktop user, and I always have both :)
[10:35] <mdz> Kamion: I did discuss it with him in fact
[10:35] <Kamion> 18:30 < sabdfl>  - enable -security only (very stable, only security updates)
[10:35] <mdz> Kamion: what was the context there?
[10:35] <Kamion> -security vs. -security+-updates vs. -security+-updates+-proposed-updates
[10:35] <Kamion> #launchpad yesterday
[10:36] <mdz> we've routinely merged non-security bugfixes into -security to avoid duplicating work
[10:36] <pitti> not that often, but indeed we did
[10:36] <pitti> but only for small critical bug fixes without impact on the UI
[10:36] <mdz> anyway, thanks iwj
[10:36] <mdz> iwj: you'll be around after the meeting as well, yes?
[10:36] <iwj> Just to be clear:
[10:36] <iwj> mdz: yes
[10:37] <iwj> I don't really think this is a very good idea, but obviously I don't want to argue with sabdfl.  So AIUI I'm instructed to push the theme change into -security ?
[10:37] <pitti> iwj: but let's do the initial <IP_ADDRESS> update ASAP, without the theme change for now
[10:38] <mdz> pitti++
[10:38] <iwj> pitti: Absolutely.
[10:38] <iwj> In fact, it was uploaded earlier during the meeting.
[10:38] <mdz> iwj: you're welcome to roll a security+theme package for -updates, but keeping that up over 5 years sounds uninteresting
[10:39] <iwj> doorbell
[10:39] <mdz> ok
[10:39] <mdz> JaneW: next?
[10:39] <iwj> back
[10:39] <infinity> TBH, firefox enjoys a rather lax security policy ANYWAY, so one more change in -security isn't likely to make people take notice in the least.
[10:39] <JaneW> Did:
[10:39] <JaneW> -SoC: Admin tasks, final mapping of students to mentors, communicating between students and mentors, and google, looking for a SoC admin replacement, any volunteers??? (doko?)
[10:39] <JaneW> -Mailing Lists: catching up on back log and unsubscribing from those no longer relevant.
[10:39] <JaneW> -Edubuntu: Attended last EC meeting, and appointed 2 new Edubuntu Members, Edubuntu 6.06 released and is doing great on the distrowatch charts - thanks to ogra. Have been handing over my Edbuntu Admin tasks as appropriate.
[10:39] <JaneW> -UDS Paris: Invited sponsored guests. Communicated with all guests to facilitate bookings and preferences, prepared spreadsheets and handed these to clan to take over.
[10:39] <JaneW> - Have been really knocked by flu and a sinus infection this week.
[10:39] <JaneW> To Do:
[10:39] <JaneW> -Finalising everything. This is my last week :(
[10:39] <JaneW> -Assisting with LP spec registering and Edubuntu as required etc.
[10:39] <JaneW> Please let me know if I need to do anything for anyone?
[10:39] <JaneW> mdz: how do you want this meeting recorded for instance?
[10:39] <JaneW> Finally: Thanks to everyone for the most fantastic opportunity, it has been an honor and privileged to have worked with you all!
[10:40] <Kamion> thanks for everything
[10:40] <Keybuk> JaneW: thank you!
[10:40] <Keybuk> JaneW: for everything you've done
[10:40] <mdz> JaneW: a brief summary for the weekly newsletter and a link to the log would be great
[10:40] <doko> JaneW: thanks!
[10:40] <Kamion> any volunteers for meeting secretary in the future?
[10:40] <dholbach> yeah, thank you very much, JaneW
[10:40] <Fujitsu> Where are you going? :(
[10:40] <JaneW> mdz: right, thanks
[10:40] <JaneW> thanks everyone.
[10:41] <doko> JaneW: well, it would be nice to have you as some kind of backup for the SoC work
[10:41] <JaneW> and drink Amarula in Paris!
[10:41] <Mithrandir> JaneW: where would we get that from when you're not coming?
[10:41] <JaneW> doko: I think we can arrange that, I'd like to stay in touch with it anyway
[10:41] <JaneW> Mithrandir: duty free ;)
[10:41] <mdz> JaneW: we'll miss you and your Amarula both ;-)
[10:42] <fabbione> JaneW: take lady..
[10:42] <fabbione> and if you need anything.. you know where the godfather is
[10:42] <mdz> heno: could you take over summarizing our meetings for the newsletter starting next week?
[10:43] <heno> mdz: yes, should be fine
[10:43] <mdz> JaneW: apart from that and SoC, is there anything else on your list which hasn't been handed off yet?
[10:44] <mdz> heno: great, thanks
[10:44] <doko> JaneW: as long as nobody volunteers, I'm going to do that (at least you already did start briefing ;-P)
[10:45] <JaneW> mdz: not really besides some UDS stuff, and the specs etc, the edubuntu team has been great at volunteering
[10:45] <mdz> JaneW: claire n. should be handling the remainder of the summit planning, yes?
[10:45] <JaneW> mdz: and the meeting reminders etc... bt it is on the fridge, so it's pretty bot-like
[10:45] <JaneW> mdz: yes except for the stuff silbs has asked me to do
[10:45] <mdz> JaneW: the stuff silbs asked you to do, is doable by the end of the week?
[10:45] <JaneW> mdz: also there's the e-mail I receive I will handle it and/or forward it as appropriate as it comes in
[10:46] <JaneW> mdz: I did remove my address as the reference on the various wiki pages I had added it to
[10:46] <mdz> JaneW: are you feeling any better?
[10:46] <JaneW> mdz: I hope so yes, I just read the message properly this morning, I am not sure I understand the team speak requirement, but am going to try to find out...
[10:46] <mdz> JaneW: if you could forward me a copy, that'd be appreciated
[10:47] <JaneW> mdz: I get a bit better during the day, but at night and in the morning I feel really rotten. I really hope the worst is over now . Thanks.
[10:47] <mdz> I've developed sinus infections as a complication of cold/flu before, no fun
[10:48] <mdz> thanks JaneW, and all the best
[10:48] <mdz> Kamion: next?
[10:48] <Kamion> misc: Huge amounts of bugmail, mostly Ubiquity. Preparing specs for Paris (done five, pondering revive-tasksel); ubiquity-advanced-partitioner prompted by aforementioned flood of bugmail. Various dapper-updates uploads, more to come. Will start on the big d-i merge today, probably (blocked on merging packaging toolchain).
[10:49] <Kamion> migration-assistance: (This is my student's GSoC project.) I've seen an initial code drop and done a design and minimal code review on it; basic approach is mostly sound and I'm happy with his progress so far.
[10:49] <Kamion> next-week: On holiday.
[10:49] <JaneW> Kamion: enjoy your holiday - is it not your anniversary then (or soon?)
[10:49] <fabbione> Kamion: am i still allowed to SMS you if we get the sparc bugs fixed?
[10:50] <fabbione> Kamion:  i am sure i can handle up to testing cdimages.. but for final release i think i will need your 31337 sk1775
[10:50] <Kamion> JaneW: couple of months, this is just a random holidday
[10:50] <Kamion> fabbione: I will be nowhere near a computer
[10:50] <fabbione> Kamion: ok.. have fun1
[10:50] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I can do releases for you.
[10:50] <fabbione> Mithrandir: on releases.ubuntu.com ?
[10:51] <Kamion> I can run Mithrandir through what needs to happen; it's a bit weird and will need manual assistance
[10:51] <Mithrandir> that's just a mirror of lithium.
[10:51] <Kamion> the scripts will get a few things wrong
[10:51] <mdz> Kamion: if you can do a dry run with Mithrandir before you go, that'd be good
[10:51] <fabbione> Kamion, Mithrandir: up to you two.. i can't even be 100% sure evything will be fixed
[10:51] <Kamion> will do
[10:51] <Kamion> um, we need to discuss other things, but #ubuntu-devel after the meeting
[10:51] <mdz> ok, thanks
[10:52] <mdz> Keybuk: next?
[10:52] <Kamion> fabbione: (SMS is fine, BTW, as long as you don't demand an answer within the hour :-))
[10:52] <Keybuk> (this week) MoM: Working on a new source grabbing method for mom, instead of relying on external morgues.  Currently finding all sources that I can for the backlog.
[10:52] <Keybuk> (this week) edgy: Prepared new udev, module-init-tools and usplash packages.
[10:52] <Keybuk> (this week) dapper: Fixed the pcmcia-cs utils bug harder *ahem*
[10:52] <Keybuk> (next week) specs: finish off spec drafts and get them on the wiki
[10:52] <Keybuk> (next week) edgy: Fix upstream's also-broken udev device enumeration
[10:52] <fabbione> Kamion: don't worry.. i expect you to have fun :) not to be ready for me :)
[10:53] <mdz> Keybuk: how much luck are you having finding the missing sources?
[10:53] <Keybuk> mdz: I'm using several different archives; won't know what the hit/miss rate is until it's finished though
[10:53] <Keybuk> hopefully it'll be good enough
[10:54] <mdz> Keybuk: do we have a plan for the future so that we're sure to keep copies of what we need?
[10:54] <mdz> or is that tbd in paris?
[10:54] <Keybuk> mdz: my plan for the future is that Launchpad should do it
[10:54] <infinity> The future plan is to import sid into LP.
[10:55] <mdz> that's unlikely to start happening before the merge starts
[10:55] <mdz> unless you know something I don't
[10:55] <siretart> infinity: do you plan to have chroots on the buildds for sid?
[10:55] <infinity> siretart: No, we're not BUILDING sid, we'll be importing a read-only copy.
[10:56] <siretart> I was rather thinking about personal package archives
[10:56] <Keybuk> mdz: you didn't specify the constraint for "future" :p
[10:56] <mdz> Keybuk: "edgy"
[10:56] <Keybuk> mdz: edgy plans are to use the scripts I've written
[10:56] <Keybuk> they basically keep our own equivalent of snapshot.dn
[10:56] <Keybuk> but without history we don't need or binaries
[10:56] <mdz> ok, so once we've filled in the gaps, they should give us what we need going forward
[10:57] <Keybuk> yeah
[10:57] <mdz> wfm
[10:57] <mdz> Keybuk: thanks
[10:57] <mdz> Mithrandir: next?
[10:57] <Mithrandir> misc: post-release cleanups, thinking and writing up specs for Eft.  Public holiday, getting started on SoC mentoring
[10:57] <Mithrandir> next week: more spec preparation, get my space bar fixed so I stop losing spaces, start uploading syncs again, more SoC mentoring
[10:58] <mdz> Mithrandir: are you confident about getting 5-8 specs in for Paris by the end of the week?
[10:59] <Mithrandir> yes
[10:59] <pitti> Mithrandir: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
[10:59] <mdz> OH
[10:59] <Mithrandir> I'm picking some off your suggestions list as well as drawing from a bunch of my own too.
[10:59] <Mithrandir> pitti: thanks. :-)
[10:59] <mdz> happy birthday indeed
[10:59] <mdz> doko just had one as well
[11:00] <mdz> and elmo!
[11:00] <dholbach> doko: HAPPY BIRTHDAY - when is the party? :-)
[11:00] <mdz> goodness, we need to get these on the fridge calendar ;-)
[11:00] <pitti> doko: happy belated birthday!!
[11:00] <Mithrandir> thanks everybody.
[11:00] <ogra> mdz++ :)
[11:00] <doko> thank you :)
[11:00] <sfllaw> mdz: Yes, we should.
[11:01] <mdz> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
[11:01] <mdz> mvo: next?
[11:01] <mvo> Did:
[11:01] <mvo> (monday  Pentecost)
[11:01] <mvo> - some 3rd party packages work/review
[11:01] <mvo> - SoC/spec work
[11:01] <mvo> - apt work (ddtp)
[11:01] <mvo> - smart work (apt-channel-sync)
[11:01] <mvo> - bug triage
[11:01] <mvo> Will do:
[11:01] <mvo> - preparing specs for paris (including resurrecting some dapper ones)
[11:01] <mvo> - more 3rd party app work
[11:02] <mdz> mvo: do you have enough spec ideas to occupy you in Paris?
[11:02] <mdz> if not I have all sorts of ideas for you :-)
[11:02] <mvo> mdz: yes, I'm confident in this :)
[11:02] <mvo> (both that you have enough ideas for both of us and that I will be able to have enough specs)
[11:02] <mdz> mvo: there seem to be at least two things being called 3rd party now
[11:03] <mvo> ?
[11:03] <mdz> our vendor-oriented repositories, and the install-packages-via-browser magic
[11:03] <mvo> oh, ok. "3rd party packages" means for me review/mail for the vendor repository
[11:03] <mdz> which wasabi has been talking about
[11:04] <mdz> one of them should be renamed to avoid confusion
[11:04] <mvo> ok
[11:04] <mdz> you and he can fight it out ;-)
[11:04] <mdz> his is apt-third-party I think
[11:04] <mdz> mvo: thanks
[11:04] <mdz> ogra: next?
[11:04] <ogra> * general: preparing a fix for missing cursors in edubuntu-artwork, discussing specs, preparing the merge of debians ltsp branch, packing g-s-s 2.14.2, SoC (willow spec changes)
[11:04] <ogra> g
[11:04] <ogra> * next-week: initial packaging of ltsp manager, more ltsp work (lots of changes in debian), preparing for paris, finishing spec writing and selecting edubuntu and ltsp specs
[11:06] <mdz> ogra: ltsp manager? is that the gui configurator?
[11:06] <ogra> yep
[11:06] <ogra> it has also a spec, so i can work "officially" on it :)
[11:06] <mdz> ogra: are you going to tackle the dhcp configuration issue and/or local devices for edgy?
[11:07] <ogra> local dev is my highs priority indeed
[11:07] <ogra> and the dhcp conf issue is at least solved for new installs in my local branch (in the udeb)
[11:07] <ogra> *highest
[11:07] <mdz> ogra: ok, if any further discussion is needed about dhcp, please get it on the agenda for paris.  if you'd like to send me a diff to review, I'll look over it
[11:08] <ogra> ok, first i need to  get the debian changes in
[11:08] <mdz> I think the best approach would be for that file to stop being a conffile in dhcp3
[11:08] <ogra> the branch is pretty mixed up
[11:08] <ogra> thats the minimal requirement, yes
[11:08] <mdz> ok, thanks
[11:08] <iwj> ogra: Have you seen any more reports about that ip address exhaustion problem ?
[11:08] <mdz> pitti: next?
[11:09] <ogra> another thing is when and how to generate it in "not new" installs
[11:09] <pitti> done last week:
[11:09] <pitti>  * piled up a huge number of security updates; staged since *-security wasn't working until this morning
[11:09] <pitti>  * fixed a few major bugs in dapper-updates
[11:09] <pitti>  * set up automatic daily langpack updates for hoary, breezy, and dapper
[11:09] <pitti>  * initial design discussion with my SoC student
[11:09] <pitti> plan for remainder of this week/next week:
[11:09] <pitti>  * finish my amber wrapper to generate USN templates that are actually usable, to greatly reduce the time I spend for creating them (currently in progress)
[11:09] <pitti>  * release the currently pending security updates
[11:09] <ogra> iwj, only one
[11:09] <pitti>  * deal with the next round of security updates (firefox, tbird, mozilla, mysql, kernel), discuss solution for Mozilla&friends with upstream and other vendors
[11:09] <pitti>  * find some time to think about Edgy specs until tomorrow; most likely I won't find time for 5-8, since security takes a lot of my time, and AutomatedProblemReports is a huge spec that I'd like to concentrate on
[11:09] <mdz> pitti: dapper-security is working now?
[11:09] <pitti> mdz: at least jackass uploads; I didn't try to release something
[11:09] <pitti> mdz: packages with translation tarballs are still broken, though
[11:09] <mdz> pitti: are we still getting a significant amount of ongoing new translations for hoary and breezy?
[11:10] <pitti> since katie doesn't eat the raw-translations changes items
[11:10] <iwj> ogra: Hmm.  I do still think there's something wrong with dhcpd there but at least it's not hugely serious.  Do let me know if it becomes more prominent on your radar.
[11:10] <pitti> mdz: yes, since all dapper translations which are valid for hoary and breezy will be updated there as well
[11:10] <mdz> pitti: don't many/most packages have translation tarballs?
[11:10] <ogra> iwj, will do
[11:10] <ogra> iwj, thanks for pointing
[11:10] <pitti> mdz: acutally not, about 400 in main
[11:10] <pitti> mdz: and most of the UI stuff is not particularly vulnerability-prone
[11:11] <mdz> pitti: do you have a tentative date for uploading the first translation updates for dapper?
[11:11] <pitti> mdz: carlos and I agreed to update translations on first Monday every month
[11:11] <pitti> mdz: does that sound fine to you?
[11:11] <pitti> so, July 3
[11:11] <mdz> pitti: that's fine with me; jordi proposed doing the first update earlier though
[11:12] <pitti> works for me
[11:12] <mdz> did you discuss with him?
[11:12] <Riddell> mdz: I'm awake now, sorry for being late
[11:12] <pitti> the packages are generated daily, we just need to upload whenever we want
[11:12] <pitti> mdz: I'll talk with jordi
[11:12] <ogra> Riddell, seems to be a derivative desease, i was late as well :)
[11:12] <pitti> mdz: June 14 sounds like a good date then
[11:12] <mdz> pitti: did we already send something to -announce about translation updates from rosetta?
[11:13] <pitti> mdz: I will do the announcement once I can do a thorough test of the hoary and breezy updates and have the dates settled
[11:14] <mdz> pitti: ok
[11:14] <mdz> silbs: might we want to do a press release about the fact that we will now be doing periodic translation updates for Ubuntu from Rosetta?
[11:15] <mdz> pitti: we need to keep you busy somehow in Paris; do you need help getting specs registered?
[11:16] <pitti> mdz: oh, I'll have plenty to do :) I plan to discuss several ffox/oo.o/langpack related things with Carlos, talk with Till Kampetter about printing stuff, and grab some people for AutomatedProblemReports
[11:16] <mdz> pitti: it's a good idea to register your planned meetings as specs, that way they go on the agenda
[11:16] <pitti> mdz: but I'll find some time today to review the specs and at least be drafter for some of them
[11:16] <mdz> pitti: (and you will have time to document the outcome)
[11:17] <pitti> right
[11:17] <pitti> mdz: are you fine with me inviting Till Kampetter for a day? he lives in Paris
[11:17] <pitti> mdz: he's the Mandriva print guru, and he wanted to exchange some ideas with me
[11:17] <mdz> pitti: I think it's too late to get accomodation, but of course he is welcome to come by for the session itself
[11:17] <pitti> he doesn't need accomodation
[11:18] <pitti> he'll just be there for a few hours, I guess
[11:18] <mdz> that's fine, it's open to the public.  he should register on /Attendees though
[11:18] <pitti> since our print infrastructure could need a huge hunk of love, I think it's a good idea
[11:18] <pitti> alright
[11:18] <mdz> thanks pitti
[11:18] <mdz> Riddell: next?
[11:18] <Riddell> done:
[11:18] <Riddell> - e-mail catchup
[11:18] <Riddell> - spec writing
[11:18] <Riddell> - edgy package update preparation http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEdgyPackageUpdates
[11:18] <Riddell> - making sure all SoC students are alive and with specs
[11:18] <ogra> pitti, i'd like to have kdeedu langpacks (in case we cant drop it from edubuntu) to reduce the cd size, can we discuss that in paris ?
[11:18] <Riddell> - Discussing Rosetta with KDE translators
[11:18] <Riddell> - dapper-updates
[11:18] <Riddell> next week:
[11:18] <Riddell> - finish off pre-summit specs
[11:18] <Riddell> - KDE 3.5.3 edgy packaging
[11:18] <pitti> ogra: sure, should become a small spec
[11:19] <Riddell> - meeting with KDE reps to discuss summit plans
[11:19] <mdz> Riddell: you have a bunch of specs registered; do you expect to divide that work between yourself and some KDE folks?
[11:20] <Riddell> mdz: me, KDE folk and the other kubuntu people who are coming
[11:20] <mdz> Riddell: I commented on the status whiteboard of one of your proposed specs and asked for it to be reorganized a bit; hopefully launchpad emailed you?
[11:20] <ogra> pitti, it will be included in the "edubuntu CD diet" spec (which has some other topics as well)
[11:20] <Riddell> mdz: yes got that, will change that spec around today
[11:20] <mdz> Riddell: how many SoC projects are you mentoring?
[11:21] <Riddell> mdz: three
[11:21] <ogra> phew
[11:21] <mdz> Riddell: seems like a lot, make sure you budget time to help them
[11:21] <mdz> in terms of your personal spec workload
[11:22] <Riddell> sure
[11:22] <mdz> Riddell: what do you plan for dapper-updates?
[11:22] <Riddell> mdz: just the ones that have been uploaded, plus the openoffice amd64 stuff with doko
[11:23] <mdz> Riddell: ok, I approved qt-x11-free earlier today
[11:23] <mdz> Riddell: when is the meeting with KDE?
[11:23] <Riddell> monday (european) evening
[11:24] <Riddell> I need to warn them about the 9 o'clock starts
[11:24] <mdz> ok, please ping me when it's starting so I can at least listen in
[11:24] <Riddell> mdz: sure
[11:24] <mdz> Riddell: thanks
[11:24] <mdz> sfllaw: next?
[11:24] <sfllaw> Done: Bug triage, release party, SoC mentoring, setup ability to work in the Montreal office.
[11:24] <sfllaw> Todo: Bug triage, training people for ubuntu-qa, spec writing, SoC mentoring.
[11:24] <sfllaw> .
[11:24] <sfllaw> STATISTICS
[11:24] <sfllaw> [11:24] <sfllaw> Since Dapper's release...
[11:24] <sfllaw> Unconfirmed and unassigned bugs of severity >= normal: 1581 -> 2086
[11:24] <sfllaw> Needs Info bugs: 1450 -> 1651
[11:24] <sfllaw> Dapper bugs: 64 -> 76
[11:24] <sfllaw> Bugs without packages: 1079 -> 1303
[11:24] <sfllaw> Bugs closed: 6696 (This number seems wrong, considering what https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs said yesterday, which was about 5000 less.)
[11:25] <mdz> sfllaw: does that represent a large spike in bug activity, or normal firehose action?
[11:25] <sfllaw> What do you mean by "that"?
[11:25] <sfllaw> The numbers overall?
[11:25] <mdz> sfllaw: the deltas
[11:25] <Kamion> sfllaw: bugs closed> does that take dups into account?
[11:26] <sfllaw> Kamion: I'm unsure.  bradb would be the best person to answer that.
[11:26] <sfllaw> mdz: We have a huge spike in bug activity, caused by Dapper's release.
[11:26] <mdz> sfllaw: the inconsistency might have something to do with that malone bugfix which went in recently, correcting the numbers vs. query results
[11:26] <sfllaw> mdz: Fair enough.  Sane numbers should reappear next week, then.
[11:26] <mdz> bug 33882
[11:26] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 33882 in malone "Critical bugs are listed as 8 in the side bar, but there actually aren't any" [Medium,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33882
[11:26] <sfllaw> In any event, the bug flow seems to have doubled after you made that release announcement.
[11:27] <mdz> sfllaw: from what you've seen, are there many valid/confirmable bug reports or mostly dupes/noise?
[11:28] <sfllaw> A lot of both.
[11:28] <dholbach> from what I've seen, I'd say 60% dupes/noise and 40% valid bugs (desktop-bugs)
[11:28] <doko> sfllaw: more statistics: ubuntu > 4500 hits on distrowatch, kubuntu and xubuntu on rang 4 and 5 (7 day statistics), edubuntu on rang 23 (ogra, go ;-)
[11:28] <ogra> YAY !
[11:28] <sfllaw> dholbach: That sounds about right.
[11:29] <mdz> doko: indeed, distrowatch is very sensitive to new releases and other big news ;-)
[11:29] <sfllaw> Lots of people hit bugs in ubiquity, that I've been hesitant to collapse into dupes.
[11:29] <mdz> qualitative feedback about dapper so far seems to be very positive, though
[11:29] <sfllaw> I agree.
[11:29] <mdz> congratulations to all of you on that success
[11:29] <ogra> mdz, dont take our illusions !
[11:29] <ogra> (about distrowatch)
[11:29] <sfllaw> Lots of people have weird configurations which didn't show up in Release Candidate stages.
[11:29] <mdz> we're getting great press and user feedback
[11:29] <Kamion> sfllaw: I'm happy to (and indeed prefer) to do most of that, but see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUbiquity for the easy cases that can be done by others
[11:29] <sfllaw> Thanks.
[11:30] <mdz> sfllaw: we need to figure out how to get those folks testing pre-release
[11:30] <Kamion> sfllaw: ubiquity is about 80% dupes or weird-shit. :-(
[11:30] <sfllaw> It's psychological, I think.
[11:30] <sfllaw> Kamion: We need their logs before we can sort into dupes.
[11:30] <Kamion> sfllaw: right, I have cut-and-paste text for that ...
[11:30] <sfllaw> Yeah, so do I.  :(
[11:31] <mdz> anyone heard from BenC?
[11:32] <mdz> out of time
[11:32] <mdz> thanks all, and good time-of-day
[11:32] <sfllaw> Thanks.
[11:32] <fabbione> mdz: thanks, good night
[11:32] <sfllaw> Zzz.
[11:32] <dholbach> thanks - sleep tight
[11:33] <heno> sfllaw: I think people are more likely to test Live CDs pre-release, so better ways of getting debugging info from those would help
[11:33] <ogra> heno, but that wont show you the upgrade probs with weird configs ...
[11:33] <heno> ogra: true
[11:33] <Kamion> heno: we only really started to get decent ubiquity crash reporting going around beta 2, unfortunately
[11:33] <Kamion> I regret not doing that earlier
[11:34] <ogra> i had a guy who obviously had poked around in his /etc/login.defs and couldnt log without getting a ton of errors for example ...
[11:36] <pitti> bye everyone
[05:57] <gnomefreak> jenda: ping
[05:57] <jenda> gnomefreak: pong
[05:58] <gnomefreak> are we only ones here?
[05:59] <ogra> gnomefreak, there is no meeting scheduled atm
[05:59] <jenda> ogra: wrong... in one hour, there is one.
[05:59] <gnomefreak> ogra: we tried to for nun to see if we can get it back up
[06:00] <highvoltage> jenda: there's a difference between 'atm' and 'one hour' ;)
[06:00] <ogra> not according to the official schedule, please mail the fridge next time to get it on there
[06:00] <jenda> Is there? hmm... true
[06:00] <ogra> and what highvoltage says :)
[06:00] <jenda> ogra: it's there http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
[06:00] <ogra> @schedule CET
[06:00] <Ubugtu> Schedule for CET: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[06:01] <ogra> Ubugtu disagrees, hmm
[06:01] <ogra> Seveas, ??
[06:02] <Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
[06:02] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[06:02] <Seveas> @topic
[06:02] <Seveas> probably places on the fridge less than an hour ago
[06:03] <ogra> ah, ok
[06:03] <ogra> thanks :)
[06:03] <Seveas> ubugtu refreshes its webcal feed every hour
[06:03] <Seveas> "@topic" forces him to do that
[06:03] <ogra> oki, willl check first next time :)
[06:03] <Seveas> to see next meeting, use @now <timezone>
[06:03] <Seveas> @now Amsterdam
[06:03] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Amsterdam: June 08 2006, 18:03:55 - Next meeting: New User Network  in 56 minutes
[06:05] <ogra> ah, cool
[06:06] <jenda> Seveas, ogra, must disagree - was there since yesterday.
[06:06] <Seveas> hmm
[06:07] <ogra> well, my evo calendar just got it ...
[06:07] <ogra> so it might be a glitch on the fridge
[06:07] <Seveas> jenda, maybe not yet in the webcal feed
[06:08] <ogra> it was surely not in the webcal feed (in my evolution) when we started talking
[06:10] <jenda> Seveas: no idea what you're talking abotu there.. :)
[06:11] <gnomefreak> me neither
[06:11] <Seveas> jenda, you poked me earlier just before I left work
[06:11] <Seveas> what was that about?
[06:25] <hybrid> me waves back
[06:25] <hybrid> heh
[06:26] <hybrid> brb im gonna get some breakfast before the meeting
[06:27] <jenda> sure ;)
[06:53] <lastnode> jenda, DRP == Dapper Release Party
[06:53] <jenda> Ah ;)
[06:54] <lastnode> jenda, http://flickr.com/photos/mahangu/sets/72157594154931177/
[06:57] <gnomefreak> is there a logger or do i need to take notes?
[06:59] <jenda> I log
[06:59] <gnomefreak> ok you log ;)
[06:59] <jenda> and this channel has it's own logbot, I think... Ubugtu?
[07:00] <lastnode> yeah Ubugtu logs
[07:00] <jenda> OK
[07:00] <jenda> so... what's the agneda?
[07:00] <gnomefreak> lol
[07:00] <jenda> a-jenda
[07:01] <jenda> And where the hell is nalioth and robotgeek...
[07:01] <gnomefreak> we need ideas to bring back nun and what we can do to imporove it
[07:01] <gnomefreak> nalmight be sleeping/working
[07:01] <lastnode> yeah i agree
[07:01] <lastnode> so are we <meetup> ?
[07:01] <kingspawn> Is it supposed to be done in the nun-channel? Like, advicing people that want mentoring to go in there?
[07:01] <gnomefreak> lastnode: yep lets do this
[07:01] <kingspawn> Or in the regular #ubuntu-channel?
[07:01] <lastnode> kingspawn, in #ubuntu really
[07:01] <lastnode> #ubuntu-nun is for us to coordinate
[07:01] <kingspawn> Hm, okay.
[07:02] <pppoe_dude> MAke an attreactive website
[07:02] <lastnode> pppoe_dude, we already have a website/wiki
[07:02] <jenda> why an attractive website?
[07:02] <gnomefreak> kingspawn: i talked to naloith about that and he brings them into an offtoic channel either ubuntu or kubuntu but i would like a place (maybe #ubuntu-nun) due to less people
[07:02] <jenda> What we need first is a mission statement.
[07:02] <pppoe_dude> coz then more people will think it's user friendly, etc.
[07:02] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Yeah, me too. #ubuntu is too crowded for indepth mentoring
[07:02] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Nowadays it is more suited for oneline-answers
[07:03] <kingspawn> (imho)
[07:03] <gnomefreak> same with offtopic channels for me atleast
[07:03] <jenda> Is the mission the creation of #ubuntu-sidechannels for more personal handling of newbies?
[07:03] <jenda> and only that?
[07:03] <pppoe_dude> maybe put all the standard stuff like a few forums and an irc channel
[07:03] <lastnode> jenda, that's part of it, i guess
[07:03] <lastnode> i dont do forums, so it'll be just irc for me
[07:03] <kingspawn> I think that is a good idea, really.
[07:03] <kingspawn> Conversation-style help in #ubuntu is impossible
[07:03] <hybrid> lastnode: +1
[07:03] <lastnode> hybrid, never been anything but a waste of time
[07:03] <lastnode> at least on irc, you can kickban the flamers
[07:03] <jenda> indeed, it's mostly the UBunu IRC team anyway... )
[07:04] <hybrid> lastnode: i have a bad history with ubuntuforums and some of the leaders
[07:04] <gnomefreak> jenda: im more of an irc users than forums. forums have a way of going wayyy too off-subject/help
[07:04] <lastnode> Ubuntu-NUN should be a group of users willing to answer the same questions over, and over, and over agian
[07:04] <jenda> hybrid: please. not now.
[07:04] <lastnode> preferebly without too many links
[07:04] <lastnode> and RTFMS
[07:04] <jenda> gnomefreak: we are all.
[07:04] <lastnode> as polite as we say it, sometimes we're just RTFMing
[07:04] <gnomefreak> lastnode: thats what it was at one point
[07:04] <lastnode> without saying the word
[07:04] <hybrid> jenda: i was just stating my reason not trying to start a flamewar
[07:04] <lastnode> it's like
[07:05] <kermitX_> website/wiki/whatever needs a good intro/primer into IRC for these new users.
[07:05] <lastnode> you have to have the patience to answer "Guys, what's a linix?"
[07:05] <kingspawn> Well, sometimes a little reading will make it clearer for the questioneer, imho.
[07:05] <gnomefreak> im making note to take to mez to see if we cant do something either re do the team (if people are not intersted) take them off?
[07:05] <lastnode> kingspawn, yeah, there's a fine line there, that we have to be able to draw
[07:06] <kingspawn> lastnode: Sure, sure, I'm all for helping. I'm actually quite helpful at times :)
[07:06] <jenda> sending them off to read is usually hard for them.
[07:06] <kermitX_> ;)
[07:06] <lastnode> in some cases it IS useful though
[07:06] <jenda> but that's not the point of the meeting, eh?
[07:06] <gnomefreak> has anyone looked ar the restricted wiki lately? tell me a new users can understand that now
[07:06] <lastnode> we dont want to encourage dumb users
[07:06] <jenda> So, we need side-channels.
[07:06] <lastnode> we want to help them grow
[07:06] <jenda> What's next?
[07:06] <lastnode> but at their one speed
[07:07] <lastnode> jenda, we _have_ side channels
[07:07] <lastnode> that was already decided
[07:07] <lastnode> we didnt need a meeting for that :)
[07:07] <gnomefreak> lastnode: we dont yet
[07:07] <lastnode> yeah, what's next
[07:07] <jenda> we do? For this specific reason?
[07:07] <kingspawn> What's next is actually an efficient way of tunneling the ones that need to go there there
[07:07] <kingspawn> (there there...)
[07:07] <jenda> We don't - but we should.
[07:07] <lastnode> jenda, i dont think we need for this specific reason
[07:07] <jenda> lastnode: I'm afraid we do -that's the whole point.
[07:07] <lastnode> wait, i mean #ubuntu-nun is eniugh, i reckon
[07:07] <lastnode> *enough
[07:07] <lastnode> there is a flipside though
[07:08] <jenda> It is for coordination, not for tutoring.
[07:08] <lastnode> inviting a user in to #ubuntu-whatever is good
[07:08] <lastnode> as long as you can finish what you started
[07:08] <lastnode> if you have to afk
[07:08] <kingspawn> Can't we have something like #ubuntu-nun-coord for the coordination?
[07:08] <lastnode> and no one else is around
[07:08] <jenda> hmm
[07:08] <kingspawn> I can't, for the sake of my sanity, do things like this in #ubuntu
[07:08] <lastnode> then he/she is in the lurch
[07:08] <jenda> no, we need #ubuntu-coupe
[07:08] <lastnode> at least with #ubuntu, there's always someone else there
[07:08] <gnomefreak> kingspawn: that will get messy for the nun memebers that dont know
[07:08] <lastnode> i dont think we need a special channel to coord
[07:09] <lastnode> all of us are in -offtopic
[07:09] <jenda> and once that is overcrowded #ubuntu-saloon
[07:09] <jenda> etc ;)
[07:09] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Well, the wiki needs to reflect the changes, I would guess
[07:09] <pppoe_dude> lol
[07:09] <gnomefreak> kingspawn: it will
[07:09] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: If they are active, they will find out
[07:09] <pppoe_dude> how about #ubuntu-beginners (for the main channel - to keep it simple)
[07:09] <gnomefreak> i would like to find out who is and who is not active ont he member list
[07:09] <lastnode> btw, is the IRCteam ok with this?
[07:09] <jenda> pppoe_dude: +1
[07:09] <gnomefreak> +1
[07:09] <pppoe_dude> and #ubuntu-nun for discussions
[07:09] <jenda> gnomefreak is the IRC team here.
[07:09] <lastnode> in the end, keeping the peace is going to be their job
[07:09] <jenda> :)
[07:10] <lastnode> oh ok :)
[07:10] <gnomefreak> jenda: what irc team? the ops?
[07:10] <lastnode> gnomefreak, we will have teh opxors in there?
[07:10] <jenda> Seveas mainly.
[07:10] <lastnode> cool
[07:10] <gnomefreak> lastnode: yes we will
[07:10] <jenda> of course.
[07:10] <lastnode> im just saying, do we need another channel to coord
[07:10] <jenda> lastnode: if we don't we can abandon it later.
[07:10] <lastnode> ive seen a maximum of 5 people in #ubuntu-nun anyway
[07:10] <gnomefreak> jenda: ping him hes prolly working on something
[07:10] <lastnode> (except now ;-))
[07:10] <jenda> I just did, gnomefreak
[07:10] <pppoe_dude> then setup a team to cover the channels 24/7
[07:10] <jenda> :)
[07:11] <kingspawn> lastnode: Heh, the idea is to increase the pressure, innit?
[07:11] <lastnode> how about we do this? we _start_ inviting people in to -nun
[07:11] <lastnode> i mean users
[07:11] <Seveas> dragging people away from #ubuntu is not-done
[07:11] <lastnode> and if we get crowded
[07:11] <jenda> pppoe_dude: that should be the people who help in #ubuntu the most.
[07:11] <Seveas> sending invites definitely not
[07:11] <jenda> Seveas: it's not?
[07:11] <Seveas> no
[07:11] <kermitX_> specifically invite beginners to #ubuntu-beginners or whatever in the docs, user guide, wiki, etc.
[07:11] <kingspawn> So all help should be given in #ubuntu?
[07:11] <gnomefreak> Seveas: we are not dragging it was meant for like when me or naloith or whoever walk users through compiling
[07:12] <Seveas> gnomefreak, private messages are ok for that too but I see your point
[07:12] <kermitX_> #ubuntu is too cluttered to have more than a 2 line conversation with someone.
[07:12] <kingspawn> Yeah. I'm all up for joining a team to help out more people
[07:12] <kermitX_> beginners will get frustrated with all the irrelevent chatter.
[07:12] <kingspawn> But not in #ubuntu.
[07:13] <kingspawn> (If text is more than one line, that is)
[07:13] <gnomefreak> kermitX_: thats why most of us invite users to an -offtopic channel to walk them through
[07:13] <Spec> How do you redirect beginners to #ubuntu-beginners?
[07:13] <gnomefreak> Spec: you cant
[07:13] <Spec> social engineering?
[07:13] <dsas> gnomefreak: RestrictedFormats will be reworked a little soon (shockwave and java are planned to be put in their own wiki pages iirc)
[07:13] <kingspawn> Yeah.
[07:14] <gnomefreak> it would be more like <user> join me in #blah blah-blah if you want help with this more in depth
[07:14] <Spec> I think people who IRC from the livecd/install should be redirected to #ubuntu-install
[07:14] <pppoe_dude> Spec, in the topic
[07:14] <gnomefreak> dsas: ty
[07:14] <Spec> who reads the topic?
[07:14] <kingspawn> Not the beginners.
[07:14] <kingspawn> Heh.
[07:14] <Spec> i mean, yeah, we do
[07:14] <Seveas> putting things in topic == dragging away
[07:14] <Spec> but not beginners
[07:14] <jenda> Spec: I disagree. LiveCD is too general.
[07:14] <Seveas> I don't think there's a need for a separate fixed channel
[07:15] <jenda> Anyway - it has always been done. Whenever you need to guide someone through, you need another channel.
[07:15] <lastnode> Spec, splitting up channels means you hae to find people who are willing to spawn themselves across all of them
[07:15] <Seveas> I suggest: "Join #yournickname to get in-depth help"
[07:15] <Seveas> just temporary join quiet channels
[07:15] <gnomefreak> i can go with that
[07:15] <kermitX_> preconfigure some of the #ubuntu-xxxx channels in the irc clients in the repos?
[07:15] <jenda> Seveas: that does make some sense.
[07:15] <lastnode> yeah that sounds alright
[07:15] <Seveas> it even makes people feel special
[07:15] <lastnode> :)
[07:15] <gnomefreak> ;)
[07:15] <Seveas> "Hi lastnode come to #lastnode and I'll help"
[07:15] <Seveas> but don't do that for all questions
[07:15] <kingspawn> I've got three real life friends that use ubuntu, and they all detest #ubuntu, haha.
[07:16] <lastnode> Seveas, you liar! #lastnode is teh empty!
[07:16] <gnomefreak> lmao
[07:16] <Seveas> lastnode, :
[07:16] <Seveas> kingspawn, heh #ubuntu is quite messy at times
[07:16] <lastnode> kingspawn, it's not perfect at times, but certainly one of the best channels ive seen
[07:16] <Seveas> I wish I had some more time for it
[07:16] <Spec> and very fast paced
[07:16] <lastnode> in terms of promptness
[07:16] <gnomefreak> the one thing that worried me was #ubuntu is getting very big
[07:16] <Spec> only because dapper was released
[07:16] <gnomefreak> new users couldnt keep up with 500 people now theres 900+ at all tiomes
[07:16] <lastnode> bigger than #gentoo?
[07:17] <lastnode> nope
[07:17] <lastnode> then again, vastly diff audiences
[07:17] <Seveas> lastnode, we're pretty close to #gentoo now
[07:17] <Seveas> during release we were bigger
[07:17] <lastnode> Seveas, yeah, i noticed :)
[07:17] <lastnode> oh right, didnt notice that
[07:17] <lastnode> :)
[07:17] <Spec> One thing I'd like to bring up would be standardization on us people getting information from them, there has to be a better way than pastebin/flood....
[07:18] <hybrid> #gentoo is also older
[07:18] <ompaul> Spec, #flood is useless
[07:18] <kingspawn> Hm, so this nun-thing is going to require joining a different channel each time I help someone out?
[07:18] <kingspawn> That is kind of set in stone now?
[07:18] <Seveas> kingspawn, no it won't
[07:18] <Spec> ompaul: #ubuntu-flood
[07:18] <Spec> but still, the concept of a flood channel is silly
[07:18] <kermitX_> Spec, topic="troll magnet"
[07:18] <Seveas> Spec, yeah, pastebin is much better
[07:19] <ompaul> Spec, flooding channels are useless, they scoll by too fast
[07:19] <kingspawn> Seveas: Oh? I misunderstand, then. Heh. I thought it was /j #nameofusertohelp, and then go at it.
[07:19] <lastnode> guys, i think what Seveas is tring to beat here is recursion. for example, what happens when #ubuntu-nun gets too crowded? do we spawn #ubuntu-nun-nun
[07:19] <lastnode> i do see his point
[07:19] <Spec> patebin is better, but it takes 10-15 minutes sometimes for a newbie to patebin
[07:19] <kingspawn> patbin, hahah.
[07:19] <Seveas> lastnode, indeed
[07:19] <kingspawn> French pastebin
[07:19] <Seveas> Spec, let them use webboard
[07:19] <lastnode> hi user, please /j #ubuntu-nun-nun-nun-nn
[07:19] <kermitX_> need 1.2.3. step by step instructions on pastebin.
[07:19] <Spec> webboard?
[07:19] <Seveas> Spec, apt-get install webboard
[07:20] <lastnode> SUDO
[07:20] <billybennett> whats wrong with a new dialog window?
[07:20] <lastnode> you missed the sudo
[07:20] <lastnode> zomg blasphemy!
[07:20] <Seveas> HAH!
[07:20] <Spec> hehe
[07:20] <lastnode> :(
[07:20] <pppoe_dude> i think that the channel crowdedness issue is no problem
[07:20] <lastnode> sudo!
[07:20] <hybrid> lol
[07:20] <pppoe_dude> because their nicknames would be highlighted
[07:20] <lastnode> pppoe_dude, you havent spent much time in #ubuntu, have you?
[07:20] <Spec> it scrolls real fast
[07:20] <lastnode> walk away for some caffeiene
[07:20] <lastnode> and voila
[07:20] <pppoe_dude> lastnode, i have
[07:21] <gnomefreak> pppoe_dude: it can be when trying to walk someone through something (most of us can do it but the new users eh)
[07:21] <lastnode> you miss it
[07:21] <kermitX_> how long does it take an irc newbie to include a nick in their messages?
[07:21] <gnomefreak> ok lets start with wiki re0working everyone up with that?
[07:21] <lastnode> kermitX_, esp one who doesnt know about tab completition
[07:21] <pppoe_dude> kermitX_, they dont have to, but we do
[07:21] <Seveas> kermitX_, weeks
[07:21] <kermitX_> lastnode, took me *forever* to figure that out! ;)
[07:21] <lastnode> so, are we clear then? we just spwn #Seveas and take all our users there? :)
[07:21] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: I'd like to know how this is going to work first, heh.
[07:21] <jenda> Well, Seveas, perhaps adding the #username policy to IRC rules?
[07:21] <Spec> lastnode: it seems so
[07:21] <Seveas> lastnode, eep :/
[07:21] <gnomefreak> kingspawn: as in?
[07:22] <lastnode> is that really policy?
[07:22] <Spec> users might join #theirownnick and just wait for help though ... :-/
[07:22] <Seveas> jenda, no it's not policy
[07:22] <lastnode> i mean if people wanted to /j #zomgitflies, whatever
[07:22] <lastnode> ?
[07:22] <Seveas> jenda, it's NuN advise for NuN helpers, not IRC policy
[07:22] <jenda> OK
[07:22] <pppoe_dude> how about like 3 channels to spread traffic, #ubuntu-beginner-install #ubuntu-beginner-setup and #ubuntu-beginner-general
[07:22] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Well, like if it is going to take me joining new channels every five minutes, etc.
[07:22] <lastnode> jenda, we should put this on the Nun wiki page i guess
[07:22] <Spec> Why not just take it to PMs though?
[07:22] <jenda> lastnode: check.
[07:22] <pppoe_dude> and we'd direct them from a main channel
[07:22] <lastnode> pppoe_dude, scroll up, we've been through this
[07:23] <gnomefreak> lastnode: if i am going to help you i would make channel #lastnode and than as you to join it for help
[07:23] <jenda> Spec: so that more people can help
[07:23] <lastnode> pppoe_dude, we're _not_ doing that
[07:23] <pppoe_dude> lastnode, ok
[07:23] <lastnode> gnomefreak, yeah cool
[07:23] <Spec> jenda: join me in #jenda to continue our discussion
[07:23] <Seveas> pppoe_dude, splitting off many channels is a bad idea
[07:23] <Spec> jenda: no one else except you and me will be there :p
[07:23] <Seveas> even #ubuntu+1 took a while to grow
[07:23] <jenda> * #jenda :You can't join that many channels :(
[07:23] <Seveas> jenda, haha
[07:23] <lastnode> that becomes a problem if a user with nick 'yourmom' joins
[07:23] <lastnode> 0.o
[07:23] <gnomefreak> if it comes down to it we will use nun
[07:23] <hybrid> #ubuntu+1 <3
[07:24] <ompaul> forget about the spread, lets think about some of our issues, some of this comes from our inability to articulate a set of questions that define users problems, and with some users while being willing to ask for help they ask in a way that is not condusive to getting a resolution
[07:24] <jenda> Seveas: you're evil. I do'nt have +u because Ubuntu crashes too often :(
[07:24] <lastnode> ompaul, i think we should invade iraq too!
[07:24] <lastnode> :)
[07:24] <jenda> ompaul: true. I blame that on nalioth not being here.
[07:24] <Spec> I think if we join a #nick it'll be limiting the amount of help that new user could recieve
[07:24] <jenda> :)
[07:24] <Seveas> I'm on 27 channels on freenode now
[07:24] <highvoltage> geepers
[07:25] <ompaul> Seveas, you needed to say that on <IP_ADDRESS>.6.6
[07:25] <lastnode> Spec, this is purely for users who you _know_ you can help
[07:25] <Seveas> lastnode, indeed
[07:25] <jenda> Seveas: I was on 29 before it crashed :( </OT>
[07:25] <pppoe_dude> oh so the idea is to have like "teacher channels" where each helper will have his own channel?
[07:25] <kingspawn> What I don't like about /j #nick is mainly two things: We must issue the same help even more often than with a sort of beginner-channel, 2) it will have me join new channels all the time, which doesn't float my boat
[07:25] <kermitX_> we don't all need to open new channels to help a beginner out one-on-one. a single #ubuntu-beginners should be more than adequate..
[07:25] <gnomefreak> we cant have that if your name is on mentors list or member list of nun
[07:25] <lastnode> gnomefreak, if you're not stating names, why did you bring it up? it serves no purpose, and just arouses unnecessary curiosity.
[07:25] <gnomefreak> lastnode: keep reading
[07:26] <Seveas> kermitX_, the problem with #ubuntu-beginners is that lots of people will join it
[07:26] <Seveas> nullifying the solution it gives
[07:26] <lastnode> gnomefreak, still, it's better to be open about it. but i do get your point
[07:26] <jenda> pppoe_dude: no... more like each student having a channel with several teachers...
[07:26] <kermitX_> Seveas, then we just find a little more obsecure name for it.. #ubuntu-nun-help
[07:26] <ompaul> no
[07:26] <ompaul> too long
[07:26] <Seveas> kermitX_, name is irrelevant
[07:26] <pppoe_dude> oh ic. i think its at least better the other way around
[07:26] <ompaul> and trying to get someone to click on a channel name is hard word
[07:27] <ompaul> s/word/work
[07:27] <pppoe_dude> although it would be limiting help
[07:27] <jenda> Nah - I think the channel problem is solved.
[07:27] <gnomefreak> agreed
[07:27] <lastnode> kermitX_, <lastnode> guys, i think what Seveas is tring to beat here is recursion. for example, what happens when #ubuntu-nun gets too crowded? do we spawn #ubuntu-nun-nun
[07:27] <kermitX_> lastnode, number them instead of nun-nun-nun-nun
[07:27] <lastnode> yeah, we're through with the channel discussion? will someone update teh wiki?
[07:28] <kingspawn> What became the conclusion?
[07:28] <gnomefreak> thats why you make temp rooms like #lastnode
[07:28] <lastnode> gnomefreak, yeah i know, i was trying to explain the reason for our decision to kermitX_
[07:28] <gnomefreak> i say either make a temp channel or use an offtopic channel
[07:28] <lastnode> conclusion : we create #username channels when necessary
[07:28] <ompaul> lets examine a case
[07:28] <lastnode> and rooms?
[07:28] <lastnode> channels!
[07:29] <jenda> lastnode: I'll update the wiki.
[07:29] <lastnode> jenda, cool
[07:29] <kermitX_> so everybody ends up with their own personal help channel. people would be able to find you again for follow up. i suppose that'll work.
[07:29] <ompaul> #nun-ompaul
[07:30] <gnomefreak> hmmmmmm
[07:30] <ompaul> don't even go there for joking but
[07:30] <gnomefreak> lol
[07:30] <jenda> Wait - the channels are named after the n00b, not the mentor, nein?
[07:30] <ompaul> so the problem here is that I create that, if I ask a user to go there
[07:31] <gnomefreak> 30 other follow thinking they are gonna get help
[07:31] <jenda> gnomefreak: I doubt it.
[07:31] <kermitX_> jenda, isn't rule #1 don't call the beginners 'n00b' ? ;)
[07:31] <ompaul> and you end up in a row with them over the help they are giving
[07:31] <gnomefreak> jenda: i would go with mentor on that that way it stays open
[07:31] <jenda> Besides, the channel will have the persons nam...
[07:31] <jenda> OK
[07:31] <gnomefreak> kermitX_: yes ;)
[07:31] <jenda> kermitX_: not in here ;) But sure.
[07:31] <lastnode> kermitX_, dont call them n00b to their faces! :p
[07:31] <gnomefreak> never
[07:32] <jenda> never
[07:32] <Spec> #nun-<helper> sounds better
[07:32] <kermitX_> if a room is created using the ahem, n00b's name, they may expect to find future help there...
[07:32] <ompaul> there is a problem there, if we have 20 mentors and all the mentors there and they all join each others channels to help/learn then there is a failure
[07:32] <ompaul> we run out of channels we can be useful in
[07:33] <ompaul> I have an idea, its short and simple
[07:33] <Spec> Maybe we should specialize
[07:33] <ompaul> no
[07:33] <lastnode> Spec, that aint ever gonna work. im a jack of all trades, specialist in none
[07:33] <jenda> gnomefreak: you'll just add one ;)
[07:33] <kingspawn> For each user.
[07:33] <gnomefreak> jenda: yep :) but i can handle it
[07:33] <lastnode> ompaul, idea?
[07:34] <jenda> I could, if gdm stopped crashing... but no solutions as yet.
[07:34] <ompaul> thank you
[07:34] <kingspawn> Let
[07:34] <kingspawn> Eh.
[07:34] <gnomefreak> jenda: we need to get up wityh naloith i think see if we cant weed out some of the un-active members
[07:34] <kingspawn> Let's hear it, ompaul
[07:34] <ompaul> the idea is to have channels off #ubuntu-nun #ubuntu-nun-1   2 and 3
[07:34] <ompaul> we need to own them
[07:35] <gnomefreak> than we can set "channels/rules for channels" stuff like that
[07:35] <ompaul> yes
[07:35] <ompaul> they are like surgeries
[07:35] <Spec> painful and take a long time to recover from?
[07:35] <ompaul> you can go into any of them once you are directed there
[07:35] <ompaul> Spec, please
[07:35] <jenda> what about #ubuntu-nun-<mentor>?
[07:35] <kingspawn> ompaul: I agree one hundred percent.
[07:35] <lastnode> guys, shall we let the man speak?
[07:35] <gnomefreak> too long
[07:35] <ompaul> jenda, no
[07:35] <jenda> ok
[07:36] <hybrid> jenda: i like #nun-<mentor>
[07:36] <jenda> but we don't own #nun-*
[07:36] <ompaul> hang on a second
[07:36] <lastnode> urgh
[07:36] <gnomefreak> jenda: #unu-jenda
[07:36] <gnomefreak> s/unu/nun
[07:36] <dsas> Mez is practically impossible to to contact in my experience. I think I read on his blog he's 1000s of emails behind.
[07:36] <hybrid> jenda: we will only need to own #nun and #nun-* comes with it
[07:36] <kingspawn> Anyone considered the fact that if we have channels that hold more than one mentor, it doesnt hit the user so hard if you are suddenly called away from the keyboard?
[07:37] <jenda> hybrid: sure. In that case, shall we let Seveas register #nun?
[07:37] <jenda> or not?
[07:37] <gnomefreak> dsas: any other way you know to contact him? or should we talk to naloith on this?
[07:37] <Seveas> jenda, ubuntu channels should start with #ubuntu-
[07:37] <pppoe_dude> #ubuntu-beginners
[07:37] <pppoe_dude> imo
[07:38] <jenda> Seveas: taht's what I suggested...
[07:38] <dsas> gnomefreak: No idea, I remember trying to contact him several times via email and never getting a reply, never saw him on IRC either.
[07:38] <jenda> Umm... i think we already discussed #ubuntu-beginners.
[07:39] <kermitX_> jenda, that could be our 'home base' channel...
[07:39] <lastnode> defragging #ubuntu is not gonna work imho
[07:39] <gnomefreak> ok why not do this  use #ubuntu-nun for helping people that will take a while (always start in #ubuntuor #ubuntu+1 if you can) and we will always have info in topic for nun members
[07:39] <jenda> kermitX_: that's #ubuntu-nun
[07:39] <lastnode> it's gonna send bucketloads of users in to the new chans
[07:39] <gnomefreak> dsas: me neither
[07:39] <lastnode> with not nearly as many support guys
[07:39] <dsas> I have no idea about IRC, but can you make an IRC channel randomly forward to other channels, so upon joining #ubuntu you get sent on a round robin to #ubuntu-helpX
[07:39] <kermitX_> jenda, primary support channel...
[07:39] <hybrid> ubuntutor
[07:39] <Seveas> dsas, no
[07:39] <jenda> kermitX_: that's ubuntu. We've discussed that.
[07:39] <kingspawn> dsas, Can't be done.
[07:40] <ompaul> folks I want to put out a full idea, so if you let me do it in one block you will see a reasonable suggestion, and then you can think ohh that is bad because or it is good because, first off I am opposed to names because it is not in the spirit of community, second off, it leads to toooooo many channels, if there was #ubuntu-nun1 #ubuntu-nun2 #ubuntu-nun3  they are in essence a temp channel - the person goes there and gets the issue resolved
[07:40] <ompaul>  it is inhabitied by  several mentors, (Quality Assurance) and then the user is removed when the issue is sorted the only people left in the channel are the mentors, is that too bizarre?
[07:40] <jenda> and wouldn't solve a thing.
[07:40] <ompaul> btw that could be #ubuntu1 or #ubuntu2 also
[07:40] <ompaul> but they are a constant
[07:40] <kingspawn> ompaul speaks with a rational voice, imho.
[07:40] <kermitX_> ompaul, not to be confused with #ubuntu+1, #ubuntu+2
[07:40] <kingspawn> When the help is done, they can politely be asked to go back to #ubuntu for other questions
[07:41] <lastnode> kermitX_, #ubuntu+2 ?
[07:41] <lastnode> :)
[07:41] <kingspawn> (mind, politely)
[07:41] <ompaul> kermitX_, #ubuntu-A
[07:41] <ompaul> I really don't care about the name, internalise the idea
[07:41] <pppoe_dude> idea is good
[07:41] <dsas> will people politely go back to #ubuntu, or will they go back to where they got help last time?
[07:41] <ompaul> in saying that I do care about the name up to the point where people use their own names - we need to be able to sit there
[07:42] <ompaul> dsas no invite no voice
[07:42] <ompaul> sorry I forgot to suggest that
[07:42] <jenda> dsas: people aren't completely dumb - whereever they go they will 1) get help 2) be sent elsewhere 3) find nothing and go to #ubuntu
[07:43] <lastnode> jenda, i think all of us in here know that sometimes, people _can_ be completely dumb
[07:43] <ompaul> they are invite channels nun peeps are voiced are as invited users then they loose their voice so there can be "and another thing" unless it get invited a second time
[07:43] <hybrid> what about if not invited they are forwarded back to #ubuntu?
[07:43] <ompaul> hybrid, messy
[07:43] <kingspawn> hybrid: Difficult
[07:43] <jenda> hybrid: I like that.
[07:43] <jenda> kingspawn: +if #ubuntu
[07:44] <dsas> Ok, I wasn't thinking of people being dumb, just that people would want to go for the quality help in a quiet channel. If the invite rule is enforced then that's not an issue anywa.
[07:44] <kingspawn> jenda: Oh, haha, didn't know you could do that. Times they are a'changing
[07:44] <jenda> nalioth: talking about sidechannels
[07:45] <ompaul> anyway that is my idea, suggestion whatever
[07:45] <nalioth> i do not want to fragment off #ubuntu.  I think that if you invite a new user to #ubuntu-offtopic or #kubuntu-offtopic, a) you 'own' the problem until you've solved it and b) there are others in those channels who may be able to contribute
[07:46] <kingspawn> nalioth: Did you read ompauls idea?
[07:46] <jenda> nalioth: partly agreed, but it kills those channels.
[07:46] <ompaul> what I had suggested wa this
[07:46] <ompaul> ompaul> folks I want to put out a full idea, so if you let me do it in one block you will see a reasonable suggestion, and then you can think ohh that is bad because or it is good because, first off I am opposed to names because it is not in the spirit of community, second off, it leads to toooooo many channels, if there was #ubuntu-nun1 #ubuntu-nun2 #ubuntu-nun3  they are in essence a temp channel - the person goes there and gets the issue
[07:46] <ompaul> resolved
  it is inhabitied by  several mentors, (Quality Assurance) and then the user is removed when the issue is sorted the only people left in the channel are the mentors, is that too bizarre?
[07:46] <nalioth> still reading the backlog
[07:46] <pppoe_dude> sorry guys but i have to leave... where can i join the mailing list?
[07:46] <jenda> nalioth: we were thinking of creating special #ubuntu-nun-mentoring channels (no matter the name)
[07:46] <robotgeek> is the issue with #ubuntu that too many people there?
[07:46] <jenda> pppoe_dude: I'll ping you once there is one.
[07:46] <nalioth> pppoe_dude: i'll get the mailing list figured out
[07:47] <gnomefreak> scrolling
[07:47] <pppoe_dude> jenda, ok thanks
[07:47] <ompaul> robotgeek, no it is more that a new user can't cope with the amount of text
[07:47] <kingspawn> robotgeek: Not exactly. The issue is that helping people with more detail than "DO THIS!" is impossible there
[07:47] <pppoe_dude> bye :)
[07:47] <jenda> bye
[07:47] <ompaul> robotgeek, you can't carry out a conversation with them
[07:47] <nalioth> robotgeek: since dapper released, at times #ubuntu is incomprehensible for new users, i'd suspect
[07:47] <jenda> agreed.
[07:47] <robotgeek> i am mostly not in there, i only support #kubuntu now. good to know
[07:48] <nalioth> i don't necessarily agree with having -nun1 -nun2 and having our folks in the channel, since there are folks who are not nun members willing to help also
[07:48] <G0SUB> nalioth: +1
[07:49] <jenda> agreed
[07:49] <gnomefreak> the issue if you start pulling people from #ubuntu is they will not know where to get help after a few times
[07:49] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: This needs to be explained
[07:49] <lastnode> defragging the main channel may lead to other problems
[07:49] <lastnode> that's my main concern
[07:49] <jenda> gnomefreak: i don't think so. They'll be side channels for single use (+if, IMO)
[07:50] <lastnode> anyway, i have school tomo
[07:50] <lastnode> going to bed
[07:50] <gnomefreak> night lastnode
[07:50] <lastnode> 23:30 over here
[07:50] <lastnode> night guys
[07:50] <lastnode> let me know what goes down :p
[07:50] <jenda> night
[07:51] <gnomefreak> nalioth: i would like if we can get up with the members and see who is active and who isnt (this might give us a better idea on how to pull nun back up)
[07:51] <ompaul> well it was only to assist where a user is in a channel where the questions are as bewildering as they are plentiful
[07:52] <jenda> Hmm... the problem is overcrowding in #ubuntu. #nick channels seem a viable solution, except they are temporary. #-nun-X channels seem a little messy (perhaps fixable with +if ubuntu)...
[07:52] <nalioth> gnomefreak: this is another reason for getting the mailing list up
[07:52] <jenda> #ubuntu-beginners is no solution.
[07:52] <jenda> Did I sum that up right?
[07:52] <hybrid> im going to make an account just for mailing list
[07:52] <kingspawn> Heh.
[07:52] <gnomefreak> ok cool i was looking for it yesterday but couldnt find it if you need help getting it up let me know
[07:52] <kingspawn> I guess I've stated my take on it enough.
[07:53] <jenda> thats why I tried to sum it up...
[07:53] <gnomefreak> answer on that was?
[07:53] <ompaul> there is none
[07:53] <gnomefreak> ok
[07:53] <kingspawn> How about doing a pilot project with ompauls idea?
[07:54] <kingspawn> If it doesn't work out, back to the drawing boards
[07:54] <ompaul> minute 45
[07:54] <kermitX_> are we limiting the solution to this part strictly to IRC? or would some sort of web application that spawns one-on-one webchat sessions a viable alternative?
[07:54] <Seveas> kermitX_, mugshot!
[07:54] <kingspawn> kermitX_: What the...
[07:55] <kingspawn> kermitX_: Have you gone raving mad? ;)
[07:55] <jenda> hmm
[07:55] <jenda> I think IRC is ideal for this...
[07:55] <kingspawn> kermitX_: That's my way of saying "Doesn't sound good"
[07:55] <Seveas> kingspawn, red hat is working on it already ;)
[07:55] <gnomefreak> ok so make one channel voice all members and voice users that were invited there for help i see one issue with that
[07:55] <kingspawn> Seveas: Well, we know that _they_ have gone mad haha
[07:55] <Seveas> hehe
[07:55] <gnomefreak> only ops can give or take voice are we gonna have 15 ops?
[07:55] <Seveas> why mess with voice/ops?
[07:55] <Seveas> that's just terrible
[07:56] <nalioth> Seveas: +q
[07:56] <nalioth> oope
[07:56] <kingspawn> Seveas: To be able to get rid of them again, heh.
[07:56] <gnomefreak> thats how i read ompaul idea on that
[07:56] <nalioth> =1
[07:56] <kingspawn> To perpetuate the idea that they shouldnt outstay their mentoring-welcome
[07:56] <nalioth> ah, i need to go back to bed
[07:56] <ompaul> forget the voice idea, but how do you do the you only got one ticket for help
[07:56] <nalioth> you gently guide them back to #ubuntu
[07:57] <kingspawn> Yeah.
[07:57] <ompaul> Phone Call ! -
[07:57] <kermitX_> kingspawn, Seveas: i was thinking something like a pastebin on oneside and a chat window on the other.
[07:57] <kingspawn> Politely stating that this ends the session, and that #ubuntu is the place for further inquiry shouldn't be impossible
[07:57] <jenda> gnomefreak: nope... I don't think so...
[07:57] <kingspawn> Most people would take that alright, I think
[07:58] <jenda> ompaul, in your proposition, could the channels be +if #ubuntu ?
[07:58] <jenda> all we need then is the invite command at level 1 and all mentors at that level in the channels.
[07:58] <kingspawn> jenda: In ircspeak, that is "you get routed to #ubuntu unless you were explicitly invited"?
[07:59] <jenda> kingspawn: check
[07:59] <nalioth> kingspawn: that is the point
[07:59] <kingspawn> That is a nice idea.
[07:59] <jenda> I think that would work perfectly
[07:59] <jenda> And we could stick with one such channel and gradually expand if needed.
[08:00] <kingspawn> Yes.
[08:00] <sladen> I feel guility everytime I leave #ubuntu, since I frequently find there aren't many other people around and that leaving generally means dumping X number of new users into the pit again to fend for themselves
[08:00] <kingspawn> I think that would be a good approach.
[08:01] <gnomefreak> is that possible kingspawn ?
[08:01] <nalioth> sladen: you don't stay in multiple channels?
[08:01] <nalioth> how about #ubuntu-classroom   ?
[08:01] <gnomefreak> to only allow invites?
[08:01] <gnomefreak> nalioth: +1
[08:01] <kermitX_> nalioth, works for me.
[08:01] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Yeah
[08:01] <nalioth> gnomefreak: that would keep folks from lurking (which may or may not be a good thing . . . )
[08:01] <Spec> How does one become a NuN?
[08:02] <sladen> nalioth: I generally can only cope with an hour or so at a time;  and often within that I'll have several users I've /query'ed and am following up in detail with
[08:02] <nalioth> sladen: ah
[08:02] <kermitX_> nalioth, better than #ubuntu-nun-habit
[08:02] <gnomefreak> what happens if they dont know how to except invite  i just learned the other day :(
[08:02] <nalioth> gnomefreak: good point
[08:02] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Just go like "I am going to invite you to a channel. Type /j #channel to join it"
[08:02] <jenda> Spec: launchpad and read the wiki
[08:02] <kingspawn> Well, that doesnt mention the name, heh.
[08:02] <dsas> If you only allow invites, then is there some difficulty of recruiting new people?
[08:03] <gnomefreak> kingspawn: thats them trying to join not invite right?
[08:03] <nalioth> i personally don't see the need to move folks on back to #ubuntu, since the helped of today can be the helpers of tomorrow
[08:03] <Seveas> #ubuntu-classroom is not a new idea but I love to see it worked out
[08:03] <jenda> dsas: only stable community members should do this type of work anyway
[08:03] <Seveas> actually it was #ubuntu-school, but classroom is better
[08:03] <kingspawn> gnomefreak: Yeah, but you just invite them, and then say that they have been invited, type /j #whatnot to accept the invitation
[08:03] <jenda> Seveas: check.
[08:04] <hybrid> Seveas: #ubuntu-school "You've Been Schooled!"
[08:04] <dsas> jenda: I'm just thinking it'll raise the entry barrier for people becoming community members.
[08:04] <nalioth> if you invite someone and they don't know they've been invited, you can tell them in #ubuntu how to join and only they'll be able to join, anyway
[08:04] <nalioth> dsas: there is that, also
[08:04] <kingspawn> But remember that these are special cases
[08:04] <kingspawn> People start helping out in #ubuntu all the time
[08:04] <gnomefreak> agreed
[08:04] <jenda> dsas: I don't think so. It will soon be a well known thing in #ubuntu.
[08:04] <kingspawn> Some of them move to offtopic, where they get in touch with others, and maybe then get into the nun-thing
[08:05] <kingspawn> They ways of irc are strange and many
[08:05] <gnomefreak> always start in #ubuntu unless its a colpiling issue or code issue  (this way we can also keep offtopic for offtopic
[08:06] <gnomefreak> compiling*
[08:06] <Seveas> To get people enthousiastic about helping, #ubuntu-classroom may be a good idea but we have to invest a lot of time in it
[08:06] <kingspawn> The -classroom would be what we are talking about now, or something else?
[08:06] <gnomefreak> if im here im here to help
[08:06] <hybrid> classroom sounds like a good idea
[08:06] <nalioth> i am still not sure making it invite-only is a good thing
[08:06] <hybrid> AND you dont need a degree ;)
[08:07] <nalioth> people outside of -nun will want to help
[08:07] <gnomefreak> nalioth: im kind of debating ont hat also
[08:07] <hybrid> -classroom would need to be more open, like nalioth said
[08:07] <nalioth> if the folks start getting offtopic in -classroom, well, you have +q and /remove
[08:07] <Seveas> nalioth, no, only you have them ;)
[08:08] <kingspawn> Heh
[08:08] <kingspawn> I have "Hush up now"
[08:09] <gnomefreak> does locobot do factoids?
[08:09] <Seveas> no
[08:09] <nalioth> ok, #ubuntu-classroom is up and has admins
[08:09] <Seveas> ubotu can join #ubuntu-classroom
[08:10] <Seveas> I'll be running both ubotu and ubugtu soon and will ask for join-limit exceptions so they can be more useful
[08:10] <gnomefreak> no you cant :(
[08:11] <nalioth> gry now, gnomefreak
[08:11] <jenda> gnomefreak: try again
[08:11] <nalioth> bleh, i really do need to wake up
[08:11] <gnomefreak> ty
[08:11] <Spec> people outside of NuN that want to help can help in #ubuntu
[08:12] <Spec> people inside of NuN (QualityHelp!) have invites....
[08:12] <Seveas> NuN people shouldn't see themselves as elite helpers, just hard workers
[08:12] <nalioth> Spec: i don't personally turn down help anywhere
[08:13] <jenda> Seveas: check. That's for sure.
[08:13] <Seveas> just because someone knows some more things, he is not better than others
[08:13] <jenda> THere is nothing elite about dragging newbies away and having the patience to lead them for hours, if need be.
[08:13] <gnomefreak> i see what they are saying on that though with the bad advice some people are known to give
[08:13] <Seveas> I've personally always ignored the "seveas is the best" or "nalioth rocks" kind of comments, they're nice to get but nothing more
[08:14] <jenda> Seveas: I hardly know more things :) But I can introduce people to Linux as well as most techies out there, or better.
[08:14] <nalioth> just because we are -nun members does not mean we do not give bad advice at times
[08:14] <kermitX_> Seveas, i certainly don't know more than most ppl, but i have been through what the newbies have been.
[08:14] <Seveas> kermitX_, we all have
[08:14] <jenda> Seveas: don't boast, we all know you never get such comments.
[08:14] <Seveas> jenda, hehe
[08:14] <gnomefreak> nalioth: i agree but we dont sit there and do it all the time (like setting up su)
[08:15] <kermitX_> Seveas, but so many of the 'geeks' out there, they forget easily how rough it is at the beginning.
[08:15] <robotgeek> i gotta run too, later folks
[08:15] <hybrid> at the begining? its tough in the middle too
[08:15] <nalioth> robotgeek: take care
[08:15] <gnomefreak> later robotgeek
[08:15] <kermitX_> hybrid, heard that. ;)
[08:16] <dsas> kermitX_: So will you one day. Probably.
[08:16] <jenda> robotgeek: later
[08:16] <jenda> dsas, not within the NUN
[08:16] <nalioth> ok, channel solved, is there any other business?
[08:16] <gnomefreak> we happy with new channel for support?
[08:16] <jenda> soo... one more channel issue:
[08:16] <jenda> to +if or not to +if?
[08:17] <Seveas> NOT to +if
[08:17] <gnomefreak> nalioth: the mailing list but im gathering you got that
[08:17] <jenda> OK, not to.
[08:17] <nalioth> i really think +if is a bad idea
[08:17] <gnomefreak> not to +if
[08:17] <nalioth> i will look into the mailing list
[08:17] <gnomefreak> ok
[08:17] <hybrid> jenda: we should keep the classroom open
[08:17] <hybrid> free education
[08:17] <jenda> strong vote ;) and i didn't set my own opinion.
[08:17] <jenda> indeed. :)
[08:17] <gnomefreak> lol
[08:18] <jenda> I'm a little afraid we might need to +m later. But for now, everything is OK
[08:18] <jenda> Next?
[08:18] <jenda> :)
[08:18] <gnomefreak> what about a meeting schedule?
[08:18] <jenda> two weeks is standard...
[08:18] <jenda> but perhaps we should meet next week?
[08:18] <jenda> to see it through the start?
[08:18] <gnomefreak> jenda: every other thursday at 1700 UTC?
[08:19] <nalioth> gnomefreak: i think meetings should be 'as needed'
[08:19] <gnomefreak> k
[08:19] <jenda> agreed. Next thursday at 17:00?
[08:19] <gnomefreak> jenda: depends on the agenda i would say
[08:20] <jenda> OK
[08:20] <jenda> agreed there.
[08:20] <jenda> /NewUserNetwork needs some love
[08:20] <kermitX_> mailing list top priority so i don't forget meetings. ;)
[08:21] <gnomefreak> lol kermitX_
[08:21] <L1nx> So... Is the classroom exclusive to recieving help, or can I just listen in?
[08:21] <jenda> I can write it once I get all the ideas in my head :)
[08:21] <hybrid> ill look into /NewUserNetwork jenda
[08:21] <jenda> L1nx: feel free, I guess.
[08:21] <hybrid> or you can ;)
[08:21] <kermitX_> mailing list might reduce need for official meetings?
[08:21] <gnomefreak> L1nx: too hard a questionm lol
[08:21] <nalioth> i will get the mailing list running (again)
[08:21] <jenda> hybrid: whoever finds the time first ;)
[08:21] <hybrid> jenda: sounds good
[08:21] <nalioth> L1nx: you are welcome to lurk (you might even jump in and help )
[08:22] <L1nx> Cool
[08:22] <hybrid> L1nx: only if you are on my side though :p just kidding
[08:22] <gnomefreak> just keep in mind guys this is not an alternative to #ubuntu
[08:22] <nalioth> gnomefreak is correct
[08:22] <gnomefreak> noraml support needs to go to #ubuntu still
[08:23] <gnomefreak> or however you spell those words ;)
[08:23] <gnomefreak> nalioth: go to bed your making me tired ;)
[08:23] <kermitX_> L1nx, think of -classroom like ducking into a quiet corner to actually be able to carry on a conversation at a rave or something.
[08:25] <kermitX_> will the NUN mailing list be for NUN "personnel" only?
[08:25] <nalioth> yes, just members afaik
[08:26] <nalioth> ok, channel sorted, mailing list will be looked at.  any other business?
[08:26] <kermitX_> when we get done using -channel. what do we do with the "client". ask them to leave or boot 'em?
[08:27] <gnomefreak> nalioth: not yet really just need to find out whos active nad whos not but we wait on mailing list for that
[08:27] <kermitX_> *-classroom
[08:27] <nalioth> gnomefreak: correct.
[08:28] <gnomefreak> thats it there was something else on angeda but didnt want to get rid of it incase it was important
[08:28] <nalioth> kermitX_: i'd recommend a gentle reminder that -classroom is for detailed help on one subject (the one you dragged the user in there for) and that #ubuntu would be more overall helpful
[08:28] <hybrid> kermitX_: /kick is bad
[08:28] <jenda> nice... so we have something done now.
[08:28] <nalioth> kermitX_: and then ignore them heh heh
[08:28] <kingspawn> Haha
[08:29] <gnomefreak> ignore is worse than kick imho
[08:29] <nalioth> gnomefreak: will your 'something else' wait or not?
[08:29] <gnomefreak> nalioth: i dont know whos it is or what its about its been there as far back as i can remember
[08:29] <jenda> Ops do NOT /ignore
[08:29] <jenda> right?
[08:29] <gnomefreak> right
[08:30] <jenda> neither should NUNs IMO
[08:30] <nalioth> jenda: that is for another discussion
[08:30] <nalioth> ok. Any other business?
[08:30] <gnomefreak> nope
[08:30] <gnomefreak> afaik we can call it over
[08:30] <jenda> OK
[08:30] <nalioth> i move for meeting adjournment
[08:31] <kingspawn> Alright.
[08:31] <hybrid> second
[08:31] <jenda> hybrid: 4th
[08:31] <jenda> hybrid: 5th
[08:31] <gnomefreak> ok im out of this channel
[08:31] <jenda> actually :)
[08:31] <nalioth> y'all take care, we'll see you around the big wide internet
[08:31] <hybrid> jenda: it's formally a second and then the president takes a vote
[08:31] <hybrid> out to hit the iron