[02:56] <mwhudson> hmm has anyone talked about making the netplan config part of the core snap's config recently?
[02:56] <mwhudson> the point of that being that a gadget could then override the default
[02:56] <mwhudson> wrong time of day for this conversation i guess
[04:59] <mup> PR snapd#3195 opened: interfaces/builtin: allow full access to properties iface of the udisks service <Created by morphis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3195>
[07:09] <pstolowski> morning
[07:15] <mup> PR snapd#3185 closed: snap: added tasks subcommand <Created by stolowski> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3185>
[08:04] <zyga> good morning
[08:05] <zyga> sory for being late
[08:05] <zyga> pstolowski: hey
[08:06] <pstolowski> hi zyga !
[08:06]  * zyga is sleepy a little
[08:07] <zyga> I was sleeping outside in a tent
[08:08] <zyga> mvo: I fixed a bug in running snap-confine from core
[08:08] <Son_Goku> morning all
[08:08] <zyga> mvo: and now https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3149 is green and can land
[08:08] <mup> PR snapd#3149: cmd: make locking around namespaces explicit <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3149>
[08:08] <zyga> Son_Goku: good morning :-0
[08:08] <zyga> :-)
[08:08] <Son_Goku> I woke up at midnight :/
[08:08] <mup> PR snapd#3193 closed: interfaces/mount: parse mount options to map[string]string <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3193>
[08:08] <zyga> mvo: please review that branch and we can use it as a base for your earlier work on /snap sharing
[08:08] <Son_Goku> zyga: PR 3149 isn't going to cause it to stop using snap-confine from the host distro, is it?
[08:09] <Son_Goku> because that's a problem
[08:09] <zyga> Son_Goku: using snap-confine from host distro is tied to reexec now
[08:09] <Son_Goku> okay, so the answer is no in my case
[08:09] <mup> PR snapd#3196 opened: tests: ensure we mock force dev mode as well to fix FTBFS in sbuild <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3196>
[08:09] <zyga> Son_Goku: right
[08:10] <zyga> Son_Goku: it is related to having snapd work in containers and in other places where / is not rshared
[08:10] <mvo> zyga: sure, looking
[08:10] <zyga> Son_Goku: so /snap or /var/lib/snapd/snap is also not rshared
[08:10] <Son_Goku> right
[08:10] <Son_Goku> I'm aware of that little issue
[08:10] <zyga> mvo: it's nothing urgent but I just wanted  to let you know the tests are green there and we could progress
[08:10] <Son_Goku> it's what prevents things like snapd from running in docker or flatpak
[08:11] <zyga> Son_Goku: it should be fixed soon :)
[08:11] <zyga> (maybe today)
[08:12] <zyga> Son_Goku: the fix is easy we just needed to do something to make initialization not racy
[08:12] <zyga> Son_Goku: hence locking ;)
[08:12] <Son_Goku> right
[08:12] <Son_Goku> it also is a nice step towards making snapd work in unprivileged contexts
[08:13] <mvo> zyga: what bug did you fix in running snap-confine from core? is that in already?
[08:14] <zyga> mvo: it was a simple one liner, it only affected tests
[08:14] <zyga> mvo: let me find it
[08:14] <zyga> https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3194
[08:14] <mup> PR snapd#3194: tests: copy snap-confine apparmor profile into testbed <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3194>
[08:15] <mvo> zyga: ta
[08:16] <zyga> offtopic, github added support for project tags
[08:17] <zyga> e.g. we could add "packaging" to snapd
[08:18] <mup> PR snapd#3186 closed: tests: allow installing snapd from -proposed for SRU validation <Created by fgimenez> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3186>
[08:21] <Chipaca> zyga— also "awesomeness"
[08:21] <Chipaca> good morning
[08:21] <zyga> Chipaca: good morning :)
[08:22] <zyga> Chipaca: what's up? :)
[08:22] <Chipaca> not me
[08:22]  * Chipaca 's back is acting up again
[08:23] <zyga> Chipaca: :-(
[08:23] <zyga> I know the pain :(
[08:24] <mvo> uhhh@chipaca
[08:24]  * mvo hugs Chipaca
[08:24] <Chipaca> mvo— good morning sah!
[08:25] <mvo> Chipaca: good morning to you as well!
[08:29] <Son_Goku> davidcalle: https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs/pull/69
[08:29] <mup> PR CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs#69: Update Arch Linux status <Created by Conan-Kudo> <https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs/pull/69>
[08:32] <zyga> that's a sad change
[08:32] <zyga> but well
[08:33] <zyga> btw, do we duplicate the wiki and the table there?
[08:33] <zyga> maybe we should just redirect
[08:33] <Son_Goku> the wiki has more details than the website does
[08:34] <Son_Goku> and I fully expect _every_ distribution to enforce this change soon
[08:34] <Son_Goku> I've already spoken to some of my counterparts in other distros about this, which is why I keep telling you it'll happen :P
[08:35] <pstolowski> i've little emergency here. need to take my daughter to the dentist.. bb in ~1h
[08:35] <Son_Goku> and I've already updated the wiki accordingly: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/wiki/Distributions
[08:37] <mup> PR snapd#3197 opened: store: retry on connection reset too <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3197>
[08:37] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think this is couter-productive
[08:37] <zyga> Son_Goku: I'd only do it after we have better classic confinement
[08:38] <zyga> Son_Goku: the FHS is not some nagic sacred unicorn, it's not worth removing features over
[08:38] <Son_Goku> I just want to avoid the back and forthiness and the complexity of directory migrations
[08:38] <Son_Goku> it's a pain and we're lucky to have avoided it in Fedora
[08:38] <Son_Goku> the poor Arch guys don't have fancy transaction scriptlets like we do, so everything is harder
[08:38] <zyga> Son_Goku: it's not a pain, it's just stubborn people
[08:39] <zyga> Son_Goku: really, nobody normal cares about this, this is just geeks disageeing on niche stuff
[08:39] <zyga> Son_Goku: (but reversing decision has negative consequences)
[08:39] <Son_Goku> nobody normal cares about Linux
[08:39] <Son_Goku> so that's a really bad argument to use with me :)
[08:39] <seb128> nobody uses android right
[08:39] <zyga> Son_Goku: I disagree
[08:39] <Son_Goku> fine, GNU+Linux
[08:40] <Son_Goku> seb128: snapd can't run on Android anyway
[08:40] <zyga> Son_Goku: nobody using android (great point seb128) cares about the FS layout there
[08:40] <Son_Goku> no SELinux support, and alternate filesystem layout isn't supported either
[08:40] <zyga> Son_Goku: and it's not the "blessed" and "only correct" FHS
[08:40] <Son_Goku> I'm not saying it is
[08:40] <Chipaca> saying "nobody cares about X" to somebody that cares about X is not how you win an argument with them, FWIW
[08:40] <Son_Goku> but breaking people's expectations isn't good either
[08:40] <zyga> Son_Goku: so what you are doing is IMO harmful, why go to this effort if we're not ready to switch?
[08:40] <Son_Goku> I did not change Arch Linux
[08:40] <zyga> Son_Goku: breaking something that worked is also not good :)
[08:40] <Son_Goku> someone else already did
[08:41] <seb128> Son_Goku, it's funny how fedora doesn't care about the FHS when it comes to udisks and mountpoints but now you do when it's snapd...
[08:41] <Son_Goku> seb128: what are you talking about?
[08:41] <davidcalle> Son_Goku: notre, thank you, should go live today
[08:41] <davidcalle> noted*
[08:41] <Son_Goku> udisks mountpoints are ephemeral, which is why they're in /run in the first places
[08:41] <Son_Goku> it's weird, yes
[08:41] <Son_Goku> but whatever
[08:42] <seb128> Son_Goku, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51709
[08:42] <seb128> Son_Goku, it's also not FHS compliant
[08:42] <Son_Goku> seb128: at least you're not breaking people's ability to back up their whole system
[08:44]  * Son_Goku shrugs
[08:44] <zyga> I love this comment https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51709#c7
[08:44] <Son_Goku> I didn't particularly like this either
[08:44] <zyga> it really does capture the essence of FSH
[08:44] <zyga> it's just old stuff that who that can commit can change at will
[08:45] <zyga> and any that innovate can just ignore as old
[08:45] <seb128> Son_Goku, right, but if it's coming from fedora it's fine  but if it's coming from somebody else it's not, great double standards right?
[08:45] <zyga> ENOSACREDCOWINFHS
[08:45] <Son_Goku> seb128: no, it's not fine regardless
[08:45] <seb128> but still fedora did it
[08:45] <Son_Goku> and like then, I can't convince you to change anything
[08:45] <seb128> didn't reverse patch upstream
[08:48] <Son_Goku> well, apparently no one ever complained about it in rhbz
[08:48] <Son_Goku> I guess if someone complained, then something might happen
[08:48] <Son_Goku> when I complained about the ovirt guys doing it, their packages got backed out of the distribution
[08:50] <seb128> k, anyway I was just making a comment about those double standards which are a bit sad, no point going over that for an hour, sorry for the noise
[08:53] <Son_Goku> seb128: if I really wanted to get into that mess, I would bitch about Debian "multi-arch"
[08:53] <Son_Goku> I've pretty much let it go
[08:53] <Son_Goku> I've had my fair share of complaints about FHS
[08:54] <Son_Goku> them intentionally ignoring /usr/libexec which led to Debian and openSUSE spending literally over a year moving everything into the wrong place
[08:54] <Chipaca> I think it's time for second breakfast
[08:55] <Son_Goku> and not specifying sysroot style FHS as being a valid mechanism (that is, /usr/<target>/{bin,lib})...
[09:06] <Son_Goku> davidcalle: where's the source for the home page: https://snapcraft.io/
[09:07] <davidcalle> Son_Goku: https://github.com/canonical-websites/snapcraft.io/blob/master/index.html
[09:07] <Son_Goku> geez
[09:07] <Son_Goku> why can't everything be in one place :(
[09:12] <davidcalle> Given the amount of teams involved in the snapcraft ecosystem and also involved in many other projects, it's a trade off between having a similar workflow for everything a team is working on and having everything in one place. In this case, Canonical websites follow a specific org structure, because the people building and maintaining them work in a specific
[09:12] <davidcalle> way.
[09:20] <mvo> zyga: hm, master is unhappy right now, looks like its related to 3194
[09:21] <mvo> zyga: I'm looking at this now
[09:23] <zyga> mvo: sorry, I'm in a call
[09:24] <mvo> zyga: np
[09:27] <Son_Goku> davidcalle: meh... we need something to know where stuff is
[09:27] <Son_Goku> it's really aggravating because I know they're forkable, I just don't know where they are
[09:28] <Son_Goku> anyway...
[09:28] <Son_Goku> davidcalle: https://github.com/canonical-websites/snapcraft.io/pull/305
[09:48] <mup> PR snapd#3190 closed: Change default options for Arch Linux <Created by Aimilius> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3190>
[09:50] <Chipaca> do we have a fedora image for spread under qemu?
[09:50] <Chipaca> Son_Goku— ^ maybe you know?
[09:52] <zyga> re
[09:52] <zyga> Chipaca: no, I don't think we do
[09:52] <zyga> mvo: what's the status of 3194
[09:53] <mvo> zyga: ignore me for now, maybe I was reading the output wrong, I'm running a local test now
[09:54] <Chipaca> zyga— isn't that merged?
[09:54] <zyga> aha
[09:54] <zyga> Chipaca: yes, I think mvo found a potential issue with it though
[09:54] <Chipaca> ah
[09:54] <mvo> zyga: yeah, but maybe I'm wrong and I was just confused by the output. sorry for the noise (maybe)
[09:54] <Chipaca> fedora's "reboot & install" is weird. Also, takes forever.
[09:55] <zyga> Chipaca: reboot & install?
[09:55] <Chipaca> rpm used to beat deb-based on speed; what happened?
[09:55] <Chipaca> zyga— "upgrades are available; reboot & install?" <click> <reboot> <stuck at "installing updates" for multiple minutes>
[09:56] <zyga> Chipaca: aha
[09:56] <zyga> Chipaca: that's the new systemd way of updating
[09:56] <zyga> Chipaca: you reboot, it installs everything in a controlled environment,
[09:56] <zyga> Chipaca: and it reboots back
[09:56] <Chipaca> in the time since i commented it's gone from 55% to 56%
[09:56] <zyga> Chipaca: I honestly still just "dnf update"
[09:57] <Chipaca> I am wearing my newbie hat, here
[10:09] <Chipaca> hmm, getting selinux alerts about snapd trying to access /home
[10:10] <Chipaca> also about snapd tyring to access ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
[10:19] <zyga> Chipaca: yes
[10:19] <zyga> Chipaca: those are complain moe
[10:19] <zyga> Chipaca: I started filing bugs about this
[10:19] <zyga> Chipaca: but we really should sit through one session
[10:20] <zyga> Chipaca: and write a meaty patch to the policy
[10:20] <zyga> Chipaca: there are tools that mostly generate the policy for you
[10:20] <zyga> Chipaca: so it shouln't be hard to fix 80% (hand-wavy estimate) of those quickly
[10:23] <Chipaca> zyga— ok
[10:24] <Chipaca> zyga— good thing these are complain, otherwise nothing would work
[10:24] <Chipaca> OTOH i also get the same thing for systemd and systemctl trying to do stuff
[10:25] <Chipaca> e.g. systemctl creating a .mount
[10:26] <Chipaca> and systemd reading the current symlink
[10:26] <pstolowski> mvo, thanks for hacking around retry code!
[10:32] <mvo> pstolowski: my "pleasure" ;)
[10:33] <mvo> pstolowski: this one is hard to test
[10:34] <pstolowski> mvo, yeah, I agree
[10:34] <zyga> Chipaca: yes, there's plenty of them; I don't know if all the fixes can go into the snapd policy; perhaps some must be made in the upstream policy
[10:57] <ogra_> mvo, mind giving a second ack on https://github.com/snapcore/core-build/pull/5
[10:57] <mup> PR core-build#5: Update cloud-init configuration <Created by raharper> <https://github.com/snapcore/core-build/pull/5>
[11:05] <Trevinho> tvoss: hey, do you know why in my 14.04, every time I reboot the snap `core` and others are marked as broken?
[11:05] <Trevinho> I need to reinstall int all the time...
[11:08] <mvo> ogra_: sure, I have a look
[11:08] <ogra_> zhx
[11:11] <Chipaca> zyga— is snapd built differently in fedora, or is libexec autodetected?
[11:12] <Chipaca> if it's the latter, then everything works wrt snapd#3150
[11:12] <mup> PR snapd#3150: In-snap bash tab completion <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3150>
[11:14] <Trevinho> And now.... error: cannot install "core": snap type unset
[11:19] <morphis> Chipaca, zyga: I already started looking into those denials on fedora but one after another :-)
[11:19] <mup> PR core#35 opened: move xdg-open to proper paths <Created by ogra1> <https://github.com/snapcore/core/pull/35>
[11:21] <Chipaca> there isn't a way to know libexec from bash, is there?
[11:21] <mup> PR snapcraft#1257 closed: core: support running from other operating systems <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1257>
[11:22] <Chipaca> nm ignore me
[11:22] <Chipaca> :-)
[11:22]  * Chipaca looking at too many things, got confused for a mo'
[11:42] <Chipaca> zyga, pedronis, you both kinda-half reviewed #3150; could you finish it?
[11:49] <zyga> Chipaca: yes
[11:49] <zyga> Chipaca: I just finished throwing something together
[11:49] <zyga> Chipaca: let me open a few PRs and I'll get to it
[11:51] <mup> PR snapd#3198 opened: interfaces/mount: pass mount.Profile to mount.NeededChanges <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3198>
[11:54] <mup> PR snapd#3199 opened: interfaces/mount: add stub Change.{Needed,Perform} <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3199>
[11:55] <mup> PR snapd#3200 opened: interfaces/mount: add Change.String for readable output <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3200>
[11:55] <zyga> there
[11:55] <zyga> Chipaca, mvo: I'll make a coffee and resume reviewing
[11:56] <zyga> mvo, pstolowski, Chipaca: I would appreciate if you can land the stub PR (3199) as this will allow me to propose the actual algorthim behind update-ns
[11:56] <sergiusens> Chipaca: have a couple for a review?
[11:56] <sergiusens> Chipaca: https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1260
[11:56] <mup> PR snapcraft#1260: meta: version from git support <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1260>
[11:57] <Chipaca> sergiusens— we need to talk about completion from snapcraft
[11:57] <sergiusens> Chipaca: completion as in being feature complete or something more scoped?
[11:57] <Chipaca> sergiusens— yes
[11:58] <ogra_> sergiusens, you dont forget about my override requirements when doing this, right  :)
[11:58] <sergiusens> ogra_: that comes next, it is rather easy (version-script to run after everything is in stage)
[11:58] <ogra_> cool !
[11:58] <ogra_> thanks
[11:59] <sergiusens> by which I guess we will do it when everything is primed
[11:59] <sergiusens> to not be all spread out in the lifecycle
[12:02] <sergiusens> Chipaca: so, when or where do you want to discuss this?
[12:02] <Chipaca> sergiusens— reviewing this thing first
[12:02] <sergiusens> ok, thanks!
[12:02] <Chipaca> sergiusens— but after that? although i should have lunch before the standup which is at 2
[12:04] <sergiusens> ok, whenever you want or forum post it :-P
[12:25] <zyga> re
[12:49] <pstolowski> uh oh CheckChangeConflict in Disconnect() doesn't really do a thing if snap/plug/slot names are omitted
[12:54] <morphis> niemeyer: ping
[12:55] <mup> PR snapd#3199 closed: interfaces/mount: add stub Change.{Needed,Perform} <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3199>
[13:26] <mup> PR snapd#3157 closed: store: add more logs around retry in download <Created by mvo5> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3157>
[13:36] <zyga> Chipaca: theresa may seeks "snap election"
[13:36] <zyga> Chipaca: snap find election
[13:36] <Chipaca> zyga— IKR
[13:36] <zyga> IKR?
[13:36] <Chipaca> totally
[13:38] <zyga> Chipaca: can you "snap revert brexit"?
[13:40] <Chipaca> zyga— you're just being mean, now
[13:45] <zyga> Chipaca: snap install humor
[13:45] <zyga> Chipaca: I just saw you laughing in the hangout
[13:45] <zyga> :-)
[13:45] <Chipaca> niemeyer— given the 2009 date of the bug, "soon" could mean 2021
[13:46] <Chipaca> zyga— I always laugh when I confirm that everything is terrible
[13:46] <Chipaca> it's the only way to do it
[13:47] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Yes! :)
[13:47] <niemeyer> renatu: Heya
[13:48] <renatu> niemeyer, hey
[13:48] <niemeyer> renatu: Missed your topics in the forum.. am I blind or did you manage to get a fix?
[13:48]  * zyga gets to reviews
[13:48] <renatu> niemeyer, sorry what topic exactly?
[13:49] <niemeyer> renatu: Related to the conversation we had here yesterday
[13:49] <renatu> niemeyer, I do not remember that, probably you talk with another person :D
[13:50] <niemeyer> renatu: Most probably! 8)
[13:50] <niemeyer> renatu: Sorry.. :)
[13:50] <renatu> np
[13:50] <niemeyer> Yes, "renat" vs. "renatu".. :)
[13:55] <mup> PR snapd#3196 closed: tests: ensure we mock force dev mode as well to fix FTBFS in sbuild <Created by mvo5> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3196>
[13:56] <Facu> sergiusens, anybody, mind to explain me the difference between snapcraft tests: [static|unit|integration|snaps] ? (basically, which should be run in which situations) thanks
[13:56]  * Facu promises to add this explanation to the HACKING.md doc
[14:00] <morphis> niemeyer: ping
[14:00] <niemeyer> morphis: Heya
[14:01] <morphis> niemeyer: hey!
[14:01] <morphis> niemeyer: you saw my post in the forum about a linode auth key?
[14:02] <morphis> niemeyer: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/extending-ci-for-snapd-to-debian-fedora/250/3
[14:02] <niemeyer> morphis: No, I still need to go through this morning's forum posts
[14:03] <niemeyer> morphis: Will get you a key for usre
[14:03] <niemeyer> sure
[14:03] <morphis> niemeyer: thanks, will wait then :-)
[14:03] <morphis> niemeyer: just wasn't sure if you're the right one for this
[14:31] <mup> Bug #1683823 opened: snapcraft list-revisions showing multiple publications in the same channel <Snappy:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1683823>
[14:34] <sergiusens> Facu: you want to talk to elopio; but the gist of of; static->flake8; unit-> no-builds; integration->shells to snapcraft, builds; snaps-> builds snaps, installs and checks how they run
[14:35] <Facu> sergiusens, thanks
[14:36] <mup> PR snapd#3200 closed: interfaces/mount: add Change.String for readable output <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3200>
[14:36] <mup> PR snapd#2749 opened: interfaces/default: allow mknod for regular files, pipes and sockets (LP: #1636540) <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/2749>
[14:37] <mup> Bug #1683827 opened: snapcraft list-revisions strip trailing 0's from versions <Snappy:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1683827>
[14:41] <mup> PR snapd#2969 opened: interfaces: mediate netlink sockets via seccomp <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/2969>
[14:46] <morphis> Pharaoh_Atem: did you check those SELinux denials for snapd already?
[14:52] <mup> Bug #1683827 changed: snapcraft list-revisions strip trailing 0's from versions <Snap Store:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1683827>
[15:07] <niemeyer> Lunch, biab
[15:08] <morphis> niemeyer: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/extending-ci-for-snapd-to-debian-fedora/250/6
[15:08] <morphis> niemeyer: not sure for how long the machines stay when I've used -reuse
[15:09] <zyga> mvo: there is something odd in tests
[15:10] <zyga> mvo: I just saw this failure: https://travis-ci.org/snapcore/snapd/builds/223175451#L860
[15:11] <zyga> + cp -a /etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.snapd.snap-confine /etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.snapd.snap-confine.real squashfs-root/etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.snapd.snap-confine.real
[15:11] <zyga> cp: target 'squashfs-root/etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.snapd.snap-confine.real' is not a directory
[15:11] <zyga> first of all, why there are both .real and old files there and why is something a directory?!
[15:13] <ogra_> the cp command tries to copy two files ...
[15:13] <ogra_> ... so the target path needs to be a dir
[15:13] <zyga> aaaha
[15:13] <zyga> thanks!
[15:13] <zyga> so
[15:13] <zyga> on 14.04 it is the plain file
[15:13] <zyga> on 16.04 it is the .real file
[15:13] <zyga> so I used a * to get both
[15:14] <ogra_> ah
[15:14] <zyga> but why do we get both at once now?
[15:14] <zyga> anyway, I think the rule needs tweaking
[15:14] <zyga> s/rule/command/
[15:17] <zyga> mvo: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3202
[15:17] <mup> PR snapd#3202: tests: handle case when both .real and plain are present <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3202>
[15:17] <zyga> ogra_: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3202 :-)
[15:18] <mup> PR snapd#3202 opened: tests: handle case when both .real and plain are present <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3202>
[15:19] <ogra_> zyga, if both files are existing they will both end up in target though ... is that what you want ?
[15:19] <ogra_> (great solution beyond that)
[15:20] <zyga> yes, that's fine
[15:20] <zyga> or
[15:20] <zyga> ...
[15:20] <zyga> is it?
[15:20] <zyga> gah, I think we only look at one of them
[15:25] <Pharaoh_Atem> morphis: I have not, but I will this evening
[15:27] <zyga> ogra_: updated
[15:28] <morphis> Pharaoh_Atem: great!
[15:28] <morphis> Pharaoh_Atem: was trying to find my way through those but if you will have a look I can ignore this for now
[15:28] <Pharaoh_Atem> I've been busy with Mageia stuff
[15:28] <ogra_> zyga, approved
[15:28] <Pharaoh_Atem> morphis: there are more important issues I need you to address, anyway
[15:29] <Pharaoh_Atem> getting upstream snapd to build without patches and working with hughsie on gnome-software are both more critical
[15:29] <Pharaoh_Atem> I've been going back and forth on whether I should submit a variant of the spec to be included in the snapd git repo
[15:30] <Pharaoh_Atem> but if we get down to zero patches, then I can just slightly tweak the one in dist-git so that it can be pulled during spread
[15:30] <Pharaoh_Atem> I want to avoid going back and forth with dist-git<->git
[15:31] <morphis> Pharaoh_Atem: yeah I am on that
[15:32] <morphis> Pharaoh_Atem: g-s is lined up and willcooke asked robert to spend time on this
[15:32] <zyga> ogra_: thanks!
[15:33] <morphis> Pharaoh_Atem: you mean spread doing a comparision alerts when both are out of sync?
[15:34] <Pharaoh_Atem> morphis: I mean for Fedora dist CI
[15:34] <Pharaoh_Atem> one aspect of that is making sure things don't go out of sync, yes
[15:35] <Pharaoh_Atem> but another aspect is to make sure the build doesn't get broken
[15:35] <morphis> ok, so you're going to run spread insight the fedora CI?
[15:35] <Pharaoh_Atem> I don't know what I'm going to do
[15:35] <Chipaca> fgimenez— sunc -> sync (on https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/core-snap-delivery-process/314)
[15:35] <Pharaoh_Atem> at this point, I'm sorta thinking aloud ;)
[15:36] <morphis> ok, however let me give you a patch soon which enables go-tests insight the fedora build
[15:36] <Pharaoh_Atem> okay
[15:36] <morphis> s/insight/inside/
[15:36] <Pharaoh_Atem> send me a patch for the spec and I'll apply it
[15:36] <morphis> need to rule out a problem with go test and asm compilation and a few more snapd fixes but should be ready this week
[15:39] <fgimenez> Chipaca: thanks! fixed i've already changed it into wiki, so feel free to edit next time! :)
[15:39] <Chipaca> :-)
[15:45] <mvo> zyga: nice, thanks for the fix
[15:53]  * zyga reads the bash tab completion code
[16:09] <zyga> Chipaca: I'm still reading your PR; I'll take a break now but I'll be back after small supper and family time
[16:09] <zyga> Chipaca: it's all +1 so far but I want to ensure I really grok what's going on
[16:11] <Chipaca> zyga— I appreciate it, and you for it
[17:07] <Chipaca> ok, ttfn, ttyl, etc
[17:07] <Chipaca> o/
[17:42] <mup> PR snapcraft#1261 opened: storeapi:  improve the error message for the case the Store answers an upload needs manual review <Created by facundobatista> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1261>
[19:09] <niemeyer> Going outside for some exercising.. back later
[20:20] <mvip> quick question - is it possible to use Core on RasPi headless? Don't have a monitor or keyboard at my disposal atm. IIRC SSH is disabled by default.
[20:57] <EEight> hey! is it possible on my ubuntu 16.04 64bit to build a snap for 32bit?
[20:58] <EEight> because my users are complaining that they don't sudo snap find myapp = not found (on 32bit)
[21:01] <kyrofa> EEight, you could look into creating a 32-bit lxc environment or something
[21:02] <kyrofa> EEight, but I recommend using the launchpad snap builders if you're able
[21:03] <EEight> kyrofa: lxc +- like virtualbox so I guess the easiest way is to install ubuntu 16.04 32bit using a VM and build the snap using this vm?
[21:03] <kyrofa> EEight, yeah
[21:24] <mup> Bug #1683942 opened: Startup logs showed after the "Please Enter to configure" message <Snappy:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1683942>
[21:36] <mup> PR snapd#3202 closed: tests: handle case when both .real and plain are present <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3202>


[13:59] <asac> chrisccoulson: i havent looked at ppa builders for a while; do you know if https://launchpad.net/builders is the normal number?
[14:00] <asac> or did all the builders again go somewhere into limbo state?
[16:15] <chrisccoulson> hi asac
[16:15] <chrisccoulson> no, that's not a normal number
[16:16] <chrisccoulson> that's around a third of what we normally have
[16:16] <chrisccoulson> probably wasn't the best time for me to restart chromium builds ;)
[16:16] <chrisccoulson> and it looks like i've taken up 2 armel builders for several days too!
[16:16] <chrisccoulson> ouch - https://launchpad.net/builders/meissa
[16:24] <asac> chrisccoulson: oha
[16:24] <asac> chrisccoulson: do you know if qa teanm still has those servers getting pulled for internal testing?
[16:24] <asac> chrisccoulson: if so, who is the one to bug now? :)
[16:25] <asac> in the past: those verification tests typically ran for 1 hour and the script giving them back to the ppa pool was buggy
[16:25] <asac> causing starvation kind of
[16:30] <chrisccoulson> asac, i'm not too sure
[16:30] <chrisccoulson> all i know is that this seems to happen quite frequently now
[16:30] <chrisccoulson> (normally every week for a couple of days at least)
[16:37] <asac> chrisccoulson: not acceptable imo... hunt down the reason before giving up
[16:37] <asac> :)
[17:40] <chrisccoulson> asac - heh ;)
[17:40] <chrisccoulson> asac - how are you anyway? looking forward to UDS?
[17:54] <FernandoMiguel> good afternoon folks
[17:55] <chrisccoulson> evening ;)
[17:55] <chrisccoulson> (for me
[17:55] <chrisccoulson> )
[17:55] <chrisccoulson> and nearly time to drink some beer
[17:57] <FernandoMiguel> 7pm here
[18:07] <asac> chrisccoulson: i am strong and bullish looking forward to orlando :)
[18:08] <chrisccoulson> yeah, me too. looking forward to some nice weather :)
[18:09] <asac> exactly
[20:22] <knome> UDS starts next monday?
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> knome, monday 31st
[20:29] <knome> okay
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> i fly next saturday
[20:29] <knome> m-hm:)
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> i can't wait :)
[20:30] <knome> i see
[20:30] <knome> i attended the jaunty summit
[20:30] <knome> haven't been in one since
[21:28] <FernandoMiguel> micahg: chrisccoulson: is there something *very* different on who chrome and chromium handles  zygote?
[21:29] <FernandoMiguel> chrome exist fine. chromium *always* remain running


[01:35] <cyberanger> Omnifrog: Tell me about it, I can never find my pulse and it scares me.
[01:39] <Unit193> It's not that hard, but sometimes disturbing how high it can be.
[01:43]  * cyberanger still can't find it
[02:40] <Omnifrog> lol, this conversation has moved along at an average of a line per day
[02:41] <Omnifrog> I don't worry about heart rate as much as blood pressure though
[02:42] <Omnifrog> shit. I just raised the line count/day
[02:55] <wrst> Quadruple, now :)
[02:56] <Omnifrog> dammit!
[02:56] <wrst> well we've just ruined it now
[02:56] <Omnifrog> guh!
[02:58] <wrst> well I'm done now...


[16:25] <th3rt> Silly question here,  but under username->preferences->  is the ssh-key section for logging into maas or is it for maas to add to newly bootstrapped hosts?
[16:25] <th3rt> I'm trying to figure out what the default creds for a maas bootstrapped host are
[22:38] <alexz> hello
[22:38] <alexz> I cannot commision a node, when I try check-commissioning I get empty array: []
[22:38] <alexz> any ideas?
[22:39] <alexz> I try to use maas (with latest ubuntu 14.04)
[22:39] <alexz> I don't understand how to get a node from state=1 to anything else


[10:33] <nikolam> How to tell Archive manager GUI, not to create .tmp files up above SOURCE folder that I am archiving, and put the .tmp file at the DESTINATION PATH (another device)
[10:34] <nikolam> e.g. how to pass it -w working dir folder option, or make it use target location by default?
[11:39] <brainwash> nikolam: is it this? https://github.com/mate-desktop/engrampa/issues/200
[11:46] <nikolam> brainwash, seems like it, I am not sure what workaround might be
[11:49] <brainwash> nikolam: I assume you either have to change the source code or use a cli command instead
[11:50] <brainwash> or a different archive manager
[18:34] <RonaldsMazitis> I think something is wrong with linux, if I copy directory, it thinks the files in directory are different
[18:36] <RonaldsMazitis> I have two wordpress folders, both have same permissions, when in one of them I use other database, it suddenly does not allow me to access wp-login.php file
[18:36] <RonaldsMazitis> when I change it in the working directory, same stuff happens
[18:37] <RonaldsMazitis> one folder is called blog, and other is called blogs
[19:23] <hans_> i think i've told Xubuntu 18.04 "update-manager" 3 times since 2019 to "never look for updates automatically"
[19:23] <hans_> now it was set to "daily" again
[19:24] <hans_> any idea what is resetting the "dont look for updates automatically" setting +
[19:24] <hans_> ?
[19:24] <brainwash> the admin?
[19:24] <hans_> it's not important, but it is slightly annoying
[19:24] <hans_> no, that would be me, i didn't do it
[19:24] <brainwash> then it should not change automatically
[19:24] <brainwash> it never did for me
[20:42] <tomreyn> well_laid_lawn: in case you'll keep reconnecting, could you leave the channel until it's stable again?
[21:16] <xubuntu94w> I heard Thunderbird is know for having security issues. Is that true? Also what is more secure to use as a client?
[22:44] <RonaldsMazitis> I can't disable suspend
[22:45] <RonaldsMazitis> on closing the lid


[13:55] <KingJ> Trying to create a bond through the web UI, but the bond mode dropdown is blank. Has anyone seen this before? Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/0zPXc4S
[14:04] <mup> Bug #1774422 opened: [2.5,2.4] Table to create a bridge is not formatted correctly <MAAS:New for deadlight> <MAAS 2.4:New for deadlight> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774422>
[14:04] <mup> Bug #1774424 opened: [2.5, 2.4] Table to create a bond is not formatted correctly  <MAAS:Triaged by deadlight> <MAAS 2.4:New for deadlight> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774424>
[14:11] <KingJ> Heh, either I have exceptionally good timing for asking about this or it was checked and confirmed.
[14:11] <KingJ> I've no idea how, but I have once managed to trigger the UI to display it properly, but it was down to chance.
[14:14] <roaksoax> KingJ: let me test
[14:15] <KingJ> (apologies, context was unclear - the bug that was just opened is my exact issue - wasn't trying to imply that anyone here was sugglish in replying!)
[14:16] <roaksoax> KingJ: ah gotcha, yeah I can see the bond modes
[14:17] <KingJ> Hmm. I'm not sure why, but on a different machine I can see the modes - although the table headers are truncated as per https://launchpadlibrarian.net/372591728/2.5-create-bond-bug.png
[14:22] <mup> Bug #1752687 changed: Quanta D52B-1U unable to PXE-boot in EFI mode <hwcert-server> <MAAS:Incomplete> <grub2-signed (Ubuntu):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1752687>
[14:25] <mup> Bug #1752687 opened: Quanta D52B-1U unable to PXE-boot in EFI mode <hwcert-server> <MAAS:Incomplete> <grub2-signed (Ubuntu):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1752687>
[14:31] <mup> Bug #1752687 changed: Quanta D52B-1U unable to PXE-boot in EFI mode <hwcert-server> <MAAS:Incomplete> <grub2-signed (Ubuntu):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1752687>
[16:45] <Supo> I have been trying to deploy my first machines with Maas with no success. I'm able to commission and test the hardware but when it comes to deploy, it acquires it but releases it in 20 seconds.
[16:45] <Supo> Has anyone seen this before? am i missing something?
[16:45] <roaksoax> Supo: have never seen that. SO you say when you click 'Deploy' it goes back to 'Ready' ?
[16:46] <Supo> gown to acquired first and 20 seconds later goes to ready
[16:47] <roaksoax> Supo: tail -f /var/log/maas/*.log and try again and see if something comes up
[16:47] <roaksoax> Supo: i've never seen that happening before
[16:47] <roaksoax> Supo: also, what version are you using ?
[16:47] <Supo> repeats this line 2018-05-31 16:20:31 maasserver.preseed: [warn] WARNING: '/etc/maas/preseeds/curtin_userdata' contains deprecated preseed variables. Please remove: main_archive_directory, ports_archive_directory, http_proxy
[16:47] <roaksoax> Supo: yeah not a reason to fail actually, so you are good
[16:48] <Supo> 2.4 beta2
[16:48] <Supo> and this one 2018-05-31 16:20:53 maasserver.websockets.protocol: [critical] Error on request (385) machine.action: This transaction has already been attempted multiple times; giving up.
[16:48] <roaksoax> Supo: try upgrading to 2.4.0 (final) first
[16:48] <roaksoax> Supo: uhmmm yeah please upgrade to 2.4.0 (final) which was released yesterday
[16:48] <roaksoax> Supo: and lets attempt
[16:48] <Supo> ok will do
[16:55] <Supo> beta2 still shows as the latest
[17:52] <mup> Bug #1774058 changed: [2.4] Creating bcache partitions fails in some situations <cdo-qa> <cdo-qa-blocker> <cpe-onsite> <MAAS:Invalid> <MAAS 2.3:In Progress by blake-rouse> <MAAS 2.4:In Progress by blake-rouse> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774058>
[18:08] <xygnal> roaksoax: what version of cloud init needed for static ip on centos?
[18:10] <mup> Bug #1774058 opened: [2.4] Creating bcache partitions fails in some situations <cdo-qa> <cdo-qa-blocker> <cpe-onsite> <MAAS:Invalid> <MAAS 2.3:In Progress by blake-rouse> <MAAS 2.4:In Progress by blake-rouse> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774058>
[18:17] <mup> Bug #1774058 changed: [2.4] Creating bcache partitions fails in some situations <cdo-qa> <cdo-qa-blocker> <cpe-onsite> <MAAS:Invalid> <MAAS 2.3:In Progress by blake-rouse> <MAAS 2.4:In Progress by blake-rouse> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774058>
[19:19] <supo> after upgrading to 2.4 still getting the following error when i try to juju bootstrap: Conflict error. Try your request again, as it will most likely succeed.
[19:51] <roaksoax> supo: ah, you are deploying with Juju, not directly with MAAS ?
[19:57] <bdx> roaksoax: is there an api call I can make to change the primary rack controller?
[19:57] <bdx> I think I almost have a successful upgrade
[19:57] <bdx> but I'm hitting this https://www.dropbox.com/s/hp6jfrr5iapwhvk/Screen%20Shot%202018-05-31%20at%2012.55.44%20PM.png?dl=0
[19:59] <bdx> I stopped all the services on my 2.3 region/rack and for some reason I con no longer ssh into it, I may have lost the node for the time being
[19:59] <bdx> but my database migration worked
[19:59] <bdx> and 2.4 seems to be happy
[19:59] <bdx> other then the fact that it cant assume primary
[19:59] <roaksoax> maas $PROFILE vlan update $FABRIC_ID $VLAN_TAG dhcp_on=True \
[19:59] <roaksoax>     primary_rack=$PRIMARY_RACK_CONTROLLER
[20:00] <bdx> awesome, thanks
[20:06] <bdx> roaksoax: when I run that command
[20:07] <bdx> $ maas admin vlan update fabric-1 200 dhcp_on=True primary_rack=rxyyr6
[20:07] <bdx> {"primary_rack": ["Select a valid choice. rxyyr6 is not one of the available choices."]}
[20:07] <bdx> should I need to add it as a secondary ?
[20:08] <roaksoax> bdx: not really
[20:09] <roaksoax> bdx: try secondary_rack=''
[20:09] <roaksoax> and see what happens
[20:09] <roaksoax> ?
[20:09] <bdx> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VK2x89XbBj/
[20:10] <bdx> it doesn't look like the empty string had any affect
[20:10] <roaksoax> bdx: i meant: primary_rack=rxyyr6 secondary_rack=''
[20:10] <bdx> ok
[20:11] <mup> Bug #1774495 opened: [2.5] Clicking on Zero of 15 ready for the default pools filters to undefined <resource-pools> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774495>
[20:11] <bdx> $ maas admin vlan update 1 200 dhcp_on=True primary_rack=rxyyr6 secondary_rack=''
[20:11] <bdx> {"primary_rack": ["Select a valid choice. rxyyr6 is not one of the available choices."]}
[20:12] <bdx> $ maas admin rack-controllers read | pastebinit
[20:12] <bdx> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/y9H6jN2hnV/
[20:12] <bdx> shows it to indeed be a rack controller
[20:15] <roaksoax> bdx: is the rack controller on the vlan ?
[20:15] <bdx> yes
[20:16] <roaksoax> bdx: look at the interface set, the 'vlan' is null
[20:16] <bdx> ubuntu@maas-region-rack-01:~$ ping -I vlan.200 <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:16] <bdx> PING <IP_ADDRESS> (<IP_ADDRESS>) from <IP_ADDRESS> vlan.200: 56(84) bytes of data.
[20:16] <bdx> 64 bytes from <IP_ADDRESS>: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.207 ms
[20:16] <bdx> 64 bytes from <IP_ADDRESS>: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=0.070 ms
[20:16] <bdx> ooh
[20:18] <bdx> roaksoax: how can I change that ?
[20:24] <roaksoax> bdx: check the interfaces of the rack controller and make sure they are correct, if not correct that
[20:32] <mup> Bug #1774186 changed: curtin does not recognize / partition created in MAAS <cdo-qa> <cdo-qa-blocker> <cpe-onsite> <foundations-engine> <curtin:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774186>
[21:39] <bdx> roaksoax: it looks like I added the vlan200 interface after I had installed maas
[21:39] <bdx> when I removed it, and reinstalled with the vlan200 interface pre-existing, I was able to get past the error
[21:39] <bdx> but now another
[21:40] <bdx> roaksoax: https://imgur.com/a/yitXnRk
[21:43] <bdx> any idea on what I might do here?
[21:44] <bdx> can I force the removal somehow?
[21:44] <bdx> it errors similarly from the cli
[21:44] <bdx> $ maas admin region-controller delete hhwcfn
[21:44] <bdx> {"pool": ["Can't assign to a resource pool."]}
[22:17] <mup> Bug #1774529 opened: Cannot delete some instances of model 'Domain' because they are referenced through a protected foreign key <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774529>
[22:43] <roaksoax> bdx: you try to remove a region-controller and it tells you you can't assign to a resource pool ?
[22:53] <bdx> thats correct
[22:56] <bdx> at least my env is stable now to some degree
[22:56] <bdx> I need to rid that stale controller, but all the things seem to be working on the new 2.4 controller
[22:56] <bdx> minus the sync status
[22:57] <bdx> I'm thinking that will clear when I rid the old controller from the db
[23:02] <bdx> roaksoax: would you like me to compile a tar of logs for you for this?
[23:07] <bdx> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/DBMXsdpYrr/
[23:10] <bdx> here's the full regiond.log http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wNCy8c4n2c/
[23:14] <roaksoax> bdx: ok, so let me udnerstand this right. the controller you are trying to delete no longer exists
[23:14] <roaksoax> bdx: the machine is gone one
[23:14] <roaksoax> gone gone
[23:15] <roaksoax> bdx: this is a region controller
[23:15] <roaksoax> bdx: but when you try to delete it (i assume both api/ui) it throws you that error ?
[23:15] <bdx> roaksoax: exactly
[23:16] <bdx> its a region+rack
[23:16] <roaksoax> bdx: could ytou please file a bug and attach that log e.g. "Trying to delete a region/rack that no longer exists, results in {'pool': ["Can't assign to a resource pool."]}'
[23:16] <roaksoax> bdx: i wont be able to attempt to reproduce today
[23:17] <roaksoax> but will look into it tomorrow
[23:17] <roaksoax> but someone on my team will probably pick it up
[23:17] <bdx> sure thing
[23:17] <bdx> np
[23:17] <bdx> great, thanks again
[23:23] <mup> Bug #1774538 opened: Trying to delete a region/rack that no longer exists, results in {'pool': ["Can't assign to a resource pool."]} <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774538>


[12:34] <k31th> Hi guys, how do i find out what sections need docs for ?
[12:40] <LaserJock> k31th: what do you mean?
[12:41] <k31th> LaserJock: well i need to contribute I cant code. Id like to give some thing back... Where do i look to see wat docs need to be made etc
[12:41] <k31th> :D
[12:43] <robotgeek> k31th: moment
[12:44] <k31th> robotgeek: k
[12:44] <robotgeek> k31th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects is a list of all projects, and most have status pages
[12:44] <robotgeek> status pages say which ones need help :)
[12:44] <k31th> i guess there is a wiki on wat tools you use etc? docbook  by any chance ?
[12:45] <robotgeek> k31th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
[12:45] <k31th> tbh i can do alot of the server stuff...
[12:47] <k31th> Right, I will find the time to do some docs as Ubuntu has helped me alot.
[12:47] <k31th> but rite now im gonna go to bed im nakard
[12:47] <k31th> night all
[12:47] <trappist> k31th: if you know wireless networking that needs help bad
[12:47] <trappist> so does the apache2 section of the serverguide
[12:47] <k31th> trappist: well thats good :D
[12:47] <k31th> as i know alot about wireless!
[12:47] <trappist> ossum
[12:48] <k31th> trappist: and i use apache alot daily
[12:48] <k31th> :D
[12:48] <k31th> trappist: the wireless stuff
[12:48] <k31th> is that in  desktop guide or in server ?
[12:48] <k31th> or ?
[12:48] <trappist> server
[12:48] <trappist> maybe both but definitely server
[12:49] <k31th> I see
[12:49] <k31th> well can i put my name down for that ?
[12:49] <trappist> no need
[12:49] <k31th> I just write it ?
[12:49] <trappist> keep in touch with me on it though, as I was gonna be messing with the apache stuff too
[12:50] <k31th> kool...
[12:50] <k31th> I guess ill read your getting started age first
[12:50] <k31th> page
[12:50] <k31th> I take it all these guides are for dapper
[12:52] <k31th> apt-get install docbook then ?
[12:53] <trappist> yeah you'll want docbook stuff
[12:53] <trappist> and yeah dapper
[12:54] <k31th> I run dapper here and at work on my desktop there.
[12:56] <k31th> does that app use rsync to make sure ui have the latest version of the docs ?
[12:56] <k31th> just following this
[12:56] <k31th> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
[12:58] <trappist> not exactly
[12:58] <trappist> it's more like cvs
[01:01] <k31th> Ahh i know cvs
[01:01] <k31th> well i know how to set it up :D
[01:03] <k31th> trappist: what editor do you guys use ?
[01:05] <k31th> Is samba4 going to be in dapper
[01:06] <Burgwork> k31th, no
[01:06] <k31th> ah
[01:07] <k31th> night
[03:48] <Burgundavia> anybody awake
[03:48] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Linuxsoftwareformat
[03:48] <Burgundavia> this needs to be renamed. I was thinking SoftwarePackingFormats, but I am not crazy on that title
[03:52] <kbrooks> Burgundavia, "Source files are nothing but raw code which requires compilation to work."
[03:52] <Burgundavia> kbrooks: the text is going to be edited next
[03:52] <Burgundavia> right now I am looking for input into the name
[03:52] <kbrooks> Python source code doesnt "require" compilation
[03:52] <kbrooks> well, i think that is a good name
[03:53] <Burgundavia> done
[03:53] <Burgundavia> thanks
[03:54] <kbrooks> Burgundavia, which, in general, requires compilation to work.
[03:55] <Burgundavia> if you want to go to town on the text, be my guset
[03:55] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwarePackagingFormats
[03:59] <Burgundavia> ok, software installation on the wiki is a mess
[04:02] <kbrooks> Burgundavia, mess how
[04:03] <Burgundavia> many many pages with duplicated content
[05:17] <robotgeek>  /away
[05:20] <robotgeek> actually, that was to remove my away status :P
[06:08] <mgalvin> could anyone possibly take a good n-m screenshot?
[06:14] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: just a sec, but I believe nm is segfaulting
[06:16] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: yea i know there are still issues with it atm... i could always drop it from the review for now and cover it in a future review (if it stabalizes)
[06:16] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: but if you can than great
[06:16] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: ok, coming up
[06:17] <Burgundavia> I need to go offline for a sec so that x-g doesn't show up in my notification area
[06:21] <mhz> does dapper include XGL ?
[06:30] <crimsun> in universe, yes.
[06:33] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: got a screencast
[06:33] <mgalvin> groovy!
[06:33] <Burgundavia> shall I upload it Flight6 ?
[06:33] <mgalvin> go ahead and add it, i gotta edit an image now anyway
[06:33] <mgalvin> yup :)
[06:34] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: I am going to break the intro up some too, it is too many words in one para
[06:35] <mgalvin> ok, it is a bit long
[06:35] <mgalvin> maybe move some of the delay info to the delay section possibly
[06:35] <mgalvin> if it fits well
[06:50] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: take a look now
[06:54] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: cool, looks good, thanks... i would keep the notes on top together somewhere for two reasons...
[06:54] <mgalvin> one all the other previous flight have the note that way and
[06:55] <mgalvin> the intro now does not talk about the delayed date so the note doesn't seem to fit there quite right
[06:56] <Burgundavia> the note is important and I think relevant right away
[06:56] <Burgundavia> moreover, the first note is far more important and needs to be stated right away
[06:59] <mgalvin> i read it again, yea it sounds fine as it is now, and the shorter sections keep the reader reading quickly
[07:10] <Burgundavia> http://www.impi.org.za/ <-- ok, their website kicks our ass
[07:36] <kk100> Hi
[07:36] <kk100> Dose Ubuntu support PPPoE connection?
[07:37] <Burgundavia> kk100: I have no idea. This is a channel for documentation. The help channel is #ubuntu
[08:15] <Madpilot> hi all
[08:16] <robotgeek> hey Madpilot
[08:18] <Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
[08:26] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, so no Bellingham for you this year?
[08:26] <Burgundavia> sadly no
[08:26] <Burgundavia> I will arrive in Seattle at 1pm on Saturday
[08:26] <Madpilot> you'll be coming back from making that sale, right?
[08:27] <Burgundavia> yep
[08:27] <Madpilot> 1pm Sat - even if I flew down to SEA to meet you, we'd only get back to Bellingham in time for the last hour or two of the thing
[08:27] <Burgundavia> ya
[08:35] <Madpilot> I see the Xubuntu docs folks have posted to the ML - is someone going to add their stuff to SVN?
[08:39] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: go nuts
[08:39] <Madpilot> heh. OK...
[08:41] <mdke_> it's just one folk right now isn't it?
[08:41] <Burgundavia> afaik
[08:41] <robotgeek> yup
[08:41] <Burgundavia> that is what janimo seemed to indicate in his speech
[08:42] <mdke> if we put it in the archive, we ought to think about getting the folk access
[08:44] <Burgundavia> and quickly
[08:44] <mdke> unless we want to make him send patches for a while. But he seems to know pretty well what he's doing
[08:45] <Burgundavia> boy dasher is fun
[08:45] <Burgundavia> seems to be using less cpu that before
[08:46] <mdke> Madpilot, do you know strict xhtml?
[08:46] <Madpilot> mdke, I can hack away at it, with help from Bluefish & Screem
[08:47] <Madpilot> BTW, I'm about to commit the Xubuntu stuff...
[08:47] <mdke> Madpilot, do you have any time to convert ubuntu/browserstartpage/C/index.html?
[08:47] <Madpilot> mdke, to XHTML Strict?
[08:47] <mdke> yeah
[08:48] <Madpilot> not this week, no. But next week with luck I'll have free time - and our freeze isn't until the 6th, yes?
[08:48] <mdke> that's right
[08:49] <mdke> if we can get it to strict, it may be easier to translate.
[08:50] <Madpilot> right - I'll convert it sometime next week, then
[08:50] <Madpilot> XDG committed, btw
[08:50] <mdke> nice
[09:00] <mdke> yes, commit access. I'll send an email today
[09:01] <mdke> are we making an exception for the "ubuntu member" rule?
[09:01] <mdke> if so, let's make one for trappist too
[09:01] <Madpilot> fine by me
[09:01] <mdke> i never liked that rule :)
[09:01] <Madpilot> the CC might have another opinion, though...
[09:01] <mdke> it's our rule, I thought, not the CC's
[09:01] <Burgundavia> I consider the creation of that xubuntu stuff enough for ubntu membership
[09:02] <Burgundavia> and I think if we think a cadidate is likely to pass, there is no reason to get them started earlier
[09:02] <mdke> what if we're wrong and then they don't? do we remove the access?
[09:03] <Burgundavia> then we wait
[09:03] <mdke> ok let's go for it with trappist and luzi.
[09:04] <Burgundavia> I think, in general, them being an Ubuntu member or actively trying is a good rule
[09:05] <mdke> Burgundavia, if someone only likes documentation, it's difficult to become an ubuntu member without first getting on the docteam, I think
[09:05] <mdke> "actively trying" might be ok though. albeit tricky to judge
[09:06] <Burgundavia> actively trying is "on the list and wants to become a member"
[09:07] <Burgundavia> if they express no interest in becoming an ubuntu member, I question why they are even trying to help us
[09:07] <mdke> sure
[09:08] <Madpilot> are there Xubuntu LiveCDs yet?
[09:08] <Burgundavia> not yet
[09:09] <Burgundavia> the building of xubuntu cds has been delayed until everything in xubuntu-meta is in main
[09:09] <Madpilot> ah
[09:10] <Burgundavia> which I believe just happened, so after flight 6 I believe it will be turned on
[09:10] <mdke> cool
[09:13] <Burgundavia> ok, that is broken. OO.o stores their recovery files in tmp, which doesn't help when the power dies
[09:18] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  somewhat related to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/openoffice.org/+bug/33444
[09:19] <robotgeek> Burgundavia: lol
[09:20] <robitaille> I heard of a company in Redmond that ship a great office product :)
[09:20] <Burgundavia> here is another fun one -->  tell where I search for the bug database on this page: http://qa.openoffice.org/issuelinks.html
[09:20] <Burgundavia> no thanks
[09:20] <mdke> gotta love their bug tracker
[09:20] <Burgundavia> even the OO.o people bitch about their infrastructure
[09:38] <Burgundavia> wow, that is cool. Not only does this movie crash totem, it also crashes gdb
[09:39] <Madpilot> OK, that's odd - I can't get XDG's Common Tasks chapter to display in Yelp/Breezy
[09:39] <Burgundavia> robitaille: do you have the various gstreamer plugins enabled? can you download http://pdl.warnerbros.com/wbmovies/vforvendetta/Super_Bowl_1280.zip and confirm that it crashes?
[09:43] <Madpilot> anyone else want to try the XDG in Yelp?
[09:44] <robotgeek> Madpilot: moment
[09:45] <robotgeek> Madpilot: works
[09:45] <Madpilot> robotgeek, Breezy or Dapper?
[09:46] <robotgeek> dapper
[09:47] <robotgeek> Madpilot: sorry, i did not see your comment
[09:47] <Madpilot> hmm. bug in Yelp/Breezy, then. it validates, so I'll just commit the thing...  Then you press down and cut, opening the vein. This would be less painful that using OO.o
[10:00] <robotgeek> yes. it is actually that frustrating
[10:00] <robotgeek> i find it easier in xml/latex
[10:05] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  that Super Bowl ad  crashes for me using totem-gstreamer in Dapper
[10:05] <Burgundavia> robitaille: cool, I will file
[10:06] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  it also crashes gxine and vlc.  I think there is something wrong with that movie
[10:08] <Burgundavia> robitaille: might be
[10:09] <robotgeek> i can't see the video, even on vlc
[10:11] <mdke> Madpilot, the thunar entity isn't defined
[10:11] <mdke> I'll fix, if that's ok
[10:12] <Madpilot> sure - what did I leave out, though? it's in xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent
[10:12] <mdke> it's in the wrong directory :) should be in menus/C
[10:14] <mdke> it still doesn't look great in yelp, because there is no title on the sect1 heading
[10:14] <Madpilot> gah, I just created it in menus/... bleh
[10:15] <Madpilot> That's what I get for messing with a new set of docs at midnight after a long day :P
[10:15] <mdke> heh
[10:15] <mdke> wow this guy knows what he is doing, Makefile looks good
[10:18] <k31th> Morning
[10:18] <mpt_> yo
[10:18] <mdke> yo ho ho
[10:18] <mpt_> Anyone got links handy for the Ubuntu Documentation things translatable in Rosetta?
[10:19] <mdke> mpt_, they are not there yet
[10:20] <mpt_> How are they going to be processed into a format Rosetta understands?
[10:20] <mdke> mpt_, using xml2po
[10:20] <mpt_> thanks
[10:21] <mdke> mpt_, why do you ask?
[10:21] <robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation mpt_
[10:22] <mpt_> mdke, because the Ubuntu-Women are trying to use Rosetta to translate stuff
[10:22] <mpt_> and I think they're translating only wiki pages, so Rosetta isn't really useful
[10:22] <mdke> I would agree
[10:22] <mdke> just reading that mail now
[10:23] <mdke> if she can get pot files from the wiki pages, it can be done, I suppose
[10:26] <mdke> seems like a bit of a hassle to request a separate set of ubuntu-women translators for each language, though.
[10:29] <mpt_> yeah
[10:29] <mpt_> there's only about a dozen of them in total
[10:30] <mdke> and integrating with the existing Ubuntu teams isn't an option?
[10:30] <mdke> i know the italian team would welcome any new contributors
[10:31] <robotgeek> would anyone know offhand how to specify only certain xml tags for translation?
[10:31] <robotgeek> using xml2po, that is
[10:32] <mdke> you can't do it
[10:32] <mdke> you can include comments (in the usual way) though
[10:33] <robotgeek> okay, thanks
[10:34] <mdke> include the comment directly before the <para> tag
[10:35] <mdke> why do you need it?
[10:37] <robotgeek> mdke: well, for easyubuntu descriptions
[10:40] <Madpilot> night, all
[10:43] <mdke> robotgeek, oh right, np
[10:46] <robotgeek> mdke: well, i can ask people to translate only the ones with label tags :)
[10:47] <mdke> the tags should get stripped out, no?
[10:47] <robotgeek> i mean, #: pkg-breezy-x86.xml:41(label)
[10:49] <mdke> ah
[10:50] <robotgeek> anyways, back to stupid gui popping
[10:51] <mdke> robotgeek, you might be able to talk to the xml2po maintainer and ask if single tags can be specified, or if not, how difficult it would be to enable that functionality
[10:52] <robotgeek> mdke: well, i gotta get the program up and running first, translations should be a snap after that
[10:52] <mdke> robotgeek, :)
[11:29] <ompaul> at the risk of being silly was it intentional that the directory in a users home directory called examples was all read only? I put the latest and greatest on my laptop last night went for the orange desktop and was happy :)
[11:51] <mdke> ompaul, ECHAN?
[12:03] <ompaul> mdke, ehh how to rephrase
[12:03] <mdke> ompaul, we don't look after example-content. But yes, I think it is intentional
[12:03] <ompaul> ahh okay
[12:04] <ompaul> cos it was sample docs and stuff I thought there might have been input from here :)
[12:15] <k31th> Jesus this dell site is so slow
[12:29] <highvoltage> k31th: praying won't make the internet faster
[12:44] <k31th> :D
[12:44] <k31th> Using konquer works well on the dell site
[04:34] <jjesse> robotgeek_away: is the kubuntu updated and ready for an updated package build?
[04:45] <jjesse> mdke: will you hate me forever if i have lost my password for svn ?
[04:52] <kgoetz> what licences does the ubuntu-doc team use? GNU FDL and one of the CC licences?
[04:52] <jjesse> let me check
[04:53] <kgoetz> thanks.
[04:53] <kgoetz> i wasnt sure where to start looking
[04:53] <jjesse> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License
[04:54] <kgoetz> thanks
[06:17] <mdke> jjesse, yeah
[06:17] <mdke> (not really, *hugs*)
[06:18] <jjesse> i think when i wiped my hard drive and reinstalled dapper it got lost in one of my backups ;(
[06:19] <mdke> these things happen. Have you still got your gpg key?
[06:20] <jjesse> i think so
[06:20] <jjesse> i can find it from a back
[06:20] <jjesse> up
[06:20] <mdke> just make sure you've got it (A60BF16A) and I'll ask elmo to resend your password
[06:57] <mdke> jjesse, any luck?
[07:01] <mdke> -> home
[07:26] <jjesse> mdke: yes i have my key
[08:10] <robotgeek> jjesse: ping
[08:10] <jjesse> robotgeek: pong
[08:11] <robotgeek> jjesse: for the kubuntu-docs package? i'm sure that we will be getting more changes as the week goes, but i guess abuild would be ok
[08:12] <jjesse> robotgeek: riddell was working for a build for flight6
[08:12] <jjesse> was/is
[08:18] <robotgeek> jjesse: okay. (lag)
[08:20] <jjesse> robotgeek: no worries


[00:18] <ckontros> Hey guys.
[00:19] <ckontros> ScottL. Gimmie 'till the weekend to digest your email. Things are a but nuts 'till then. I'll be able to better respond on Saturday.
[00:24] <ckontros> Ok. Peace guys. (note that Im often connected but not in-channel if someone needs me)
[00:25] <persia> And we try not to pester you, if we can avoid it.  We know you don't really have time.
[00:35] <rlameiro> persia: only one test to go on the iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[00:36] <rlameiro> :DD
[00:37] <persia> Cool!
[00:37] <persia> entire-disk-with-encryption.
[00:37] <rlameiro> yeap
[00:37] <persia> You doing that next, or do you need a hand?
[00:37] <rlameiro> i never did a entire disk with encryption
[00:37] <rlameiro> it shouldn't be hard
[00:37] <rlameiro> but i dont want to mess with my other os
[00:38] <rlameiro> at the mometn i have 2 ubuntus installed
[00:38] <persia> DO you need both of them?
[00:38] <persia> Oh, entire disk.
[00:38] <persia> Right.
[00:38] <rlameiro> yeap
[00:38] <rlameiro> i am on a laptop
[00:38] <persia> I can do an install to a VM, but not a real install, with the hardware I have avaiable.
[00:38] <rlameiro> if i had a desktop i would do it
[00:39] <rlameiro> just putting an old 40 gb harddrive
[00:39] <persia> (well, I suppose I could do a real install, but I'd fail it, because of an installer bug related to that specific hardware, and that's not useful)
[00:39] <rlameiro> its 64bit
[00:39] <persia> OK.  I'll start up a VM.
[00:39] <rlameiro> vm with 64 bit are
[00:40] <rlameiro> difficult to fins :D
[00:40] <rlameiro> well, at leas virtualbox doesnt support it
[00:42] <ScottL> later tonight i should get the last i386 test tonight :)
[00:42] <ScottL> oh and thatnks rlameiro for the testing you did
[00:42] <rlameiro> ScottL: they are all made :D
[00:42] <rlameiro> ava made it
[00:43] <rlameiro> its only missing a AMD64 entire disk with encryption
[00:44] <rlameiro> ScottL: I am going to sleep now
[00:44] <rlameiro> we need to talk later
[00:44] <rlameiro> cya guys
[00:46] <persia> The trick to 64-bit VMs is to have a 64-bit server around with libvirt installed.
[00:46] <persia> The hassle is getting this to actually work properly
[00:49] <ScottL> hmmm, i wonder what rlamerio wanted to talk about?
[00:51] <persia> OK Test running.
[01:00] <ScottL> good, i'm working on the last i386 now
[01:01]  * persia fails to understand why it's slow going from a virtual iso to a virtual disk on a machine that isn't really doing much else
[01:07] <persia> Oh!  I know why it's slow.  I'm encrypting everything.  Silly me.
[01:16] <ScottL> lol
[01:31] <ScottL> that should be the last test also
[01:31] <ScottL> i meant the one you are performing persia
[01:33] <persia> Yeah, just taking a while.
[01:46] <persia> So, there's a discussion in -motu about whether the images should be respun.
[01:46] <persia> I think they shouldn't, because I think we won't manage to test them again if they are.
[01:47] <persia> But if someone wants to make an official statement to that effect, it wouldn't hurt.
[01:52] <ScottL> statement made in -motu, not sure how it would be official
[01:52] <persia> Same as anything else.  consensus.
[01:53] <ScottL> do i need to address myself as project lead or acting lead or something?
[01:53] <persia> I think that needs to get sorted out internally first.
[01:53] <persia> I'm known to be associated with ubuntustudio.  My statement that you might be the right person is probably as much as we need.
[01:54] <persia> I don't remember if there was an official release delegation this cycle (I think not, remembering the meeting).
[01:54] <persia> So we might not even *have* an appripriate person to make that decision, which would make it fall to TheMuso.
[01:54] <persia> And he's already swamped with enough other stuff, that he's not likely to have time to check the corner cases.
[01:55] <TheMuso> persia: I agree they shouldn't.
[02:02] <ScottL> persia, i put forth my suggestion because you mentioned "official" here and referenced me in -motu
[02:03] <persia> ScottL: You appear to be taking on the mantle of project lead.  Apologies if I presume too far.
[02:04] <ScottL> no, no, i've stated in this channel that i had volunteered for the position in lieu of anyone else, no apologies need my friend :)
[02:06] <ScottL> i meant that it sounded like it would be helpful in -motu to wield a title to fortify our argument
[02:09] <persia> In my experience if the choice is between "do a lot of work in a hurry" and "wait a couple days to complete a task that can be prepared in advance safely", people will always choose the latter unless prompted otherwise.
[02:09] <persia> So if we *did* want a respin, there would likely be a need for strong statements.  Several folk saying "just wait" tends to be enough to build consensus without the need for more formal measures.
[02:18] <detrate> virtualbox supports 64bit
[02:18] <detrate> unless your host is 32bit
[02:18] <detrate> unless you're talking about something specific?
[02:23] <detrate> I wish ubuntu wiki would give an extra tab if you're browsing in a 'flavor' of the operating system
[02:23] <persia> We can do different CSS if we like.
[02:23] <persia> e.g. wiki.kubuntu.org
[02:23] <detrate> or go another level down in the URL
[02:23] <persia> Needs making the CSS, etc.
[02:24] <detrate> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Art/Incoming
[02:24] <detrate> or such
[02:24] <detrate> I can do CSS for ya
[02:24] <detrate> what about markup?
[02:24] <persia> Dunno precisely.  Compare wiki.kubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com
[02:24] <persia> See what's different.
[02:24] <detrate> okay
[02:25] <persia> That's the bits we can change.
[02:25] <detrate> all run from the same CMS?
[02:25] <persia> Yep.  Same backend.
[02:25] <detrate> okey dokey
[02:25] <persia> Note that it will take months to get IS to actually implement it, based on past experience, but it's available if we want it.
[02:26] <detrate> okay
[02:27] <detrate> well I'm confused how ubuntu.com has the wiki but kubuntu.org doesn't
[02:27] <detrate> can you edit template files at all or only CSS?
[02:28] <persia> What?
[02:28] <detrate> For the wiki, as an admin or whatever user role they gave you.  Do you have access to editing some sort of template file or only CSS?
[02:28] <detrate> by template I mean a markup language
[02:29] <detrate> such as HTML, Smarty or something similar
[02:29] <persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu vs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
[02:29] <persia> Oh, users can edit content.  moin syntax.
[02:29] <persia> But we can do per-flavour CSS.
[02:30] <detrate> on ubuntu.com, there is a "ubuntu" "community" "support" "partners" "planet"
[02:30] <detrate> but this is not on kubuntu
[02:31] <persia> Oh, I dunno.
[02:31] <persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Sandbo works
[02:31] <persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
[02:32] <detrate> also, can you get the domain wiki.ubuntustudio.org ?
[02:32] <persia> Oh, you're looking at www.
[02:32] <persia> I'm only talking about wiki.
[02:32] <detrate> hmm?
[02:32] <detrate> no, I was too
[02:33] <detrate> there is a menu in the header on wiki.ubuntu.com that is not there on wiki.kubuntu.org
[02:33] <persia> I don't see any reason wiki.ubuntustudio.org couldn't point there.
[02:33] <detrate> I think that would help with clarity
[02:33] <detrate> just my opinion, you can get a vote on it but I suggest both that name and a theme
[02:34] <detrate> I'd be happy to help theme it / write the css
[02:34] <persia> Oh, I see what you mean.
[02:34] <ScottL> detrate, i just added you to me list of people who rock ;)
[02:34] <persia> Yeah, if that differs for those two, it could differ for us.
[02:35] <detrate> okay, that can be helpful as well
[02:35] <detrate> thanks ScottL :-P
[02:37] <detrate> here is a view through my current world if you're interested ^_^ http://imgur.com/sYgeS.png
[02:37] <detrate> my IRC client is konversation by the way
[02:38] <detrate> so that's a qt4 version of the same gnome theme that makes up the rest of that screenshot
[03:06] <ScottL> detrate, how did the awards go?
[03:07] <detrate> it was pretty cool, cash bar though :-P
[03:07] <detrate> good meal, good speakers and entertainment
[04:28] <detrate> How about themes for Ubuntu Studio releases
[04:29] <detrate> have these been discussed before? and by themes, I mean as ubuntu has with animals.
[04:30] <detrate> perhaps do a stylish animal that reflects the operating system, or create your own naming pattern following ubuntu's naming scheme
[08:43] <rlameiro> goodmorning
[08:44] <rlameiro> persia: thanks for the test report :D
[08:46] <astraljava> Hey rlameiro
[08:47] <rlameiro> astraljava: hey
[12:01] <ScottL> detrate, that is an interesting idea about the themes
[12:02] <ScottL> historically i don't think we have had consistent manpower to achieve something so organized and....well, thematic :P
[12:04] <ScottL> do have some suggestions or specific ideas towards this?
[12:10] <jussi> As a recognised derivative we follow Ubuntu's naming scheme.
[12:39] <astraljava> Are you two on the same discussion? ;)
[13:01] <detrate> :-P
[13:01] <detrate> well the reason I even bring it up is because if I'm trying to brainstorm some mockups
[13:01] <detrate> all I can do is draw abstract shapes and such
[13:01] <detrate> there is no real art beyond the logo
[13:20] <rlameiro> maybe the logo may need to be updated to be more on the line of the new ubuntu logo
[13:29] <detrate> I'd hope a distro targeted more at artists can be more visually pleasing
[13:29] <detrate> I can't say I'm 100% or even 60% with the design changes ubuntu has been making
[13:32] <astraljava> Are you now talking about vanilla Ubuntu or Ubuntu Studio?
[13:32] <detrate> vanilla
[13:32] <detrate> I don't like the new font choice amongst other things
[13:36] <detrate> as far as I can tell ubuntu studio has not used to ubuntu font before
[13:54] <rlameiro> isnt Ckontros part of the art team? maybe this debate could be made with him
[14:19] <astraljava> I thought Cory took a leave of absence. I could be wrong, though, as I've only been back for a couple of weeks or something.
[14:21] <detrate-> cory was in here the other day
[14:26] <astraljava> Yeah I saw that, but I assumed it was merely out of curiosity. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2009-August/001878.html
[14:28] <rlameiro> yeah, but i am almost sure he would help in this matter, since is into artwork
[14:30] <astraljava> That might be true.
[16:25] <scott-work> cory has mentioned that he has very limited time, but it _would_ be awesome if he could be involved with art, even it it was to a limited degree
[16:36] <detrate-> Are there any illustrators with ties to the project?
[16:36] <detrate-> it'd be nice to get a stylish Maverick Meerkat
[16:40] <scott-work> i don't think so
[16:41] <scott-work> i think historically it has been cory by himself doing most of the art direction, although i believe we may have gotten most of our images (gdm screen, wallpaper) from others
[16:45] <scott-work> and cory may have even done most of the work on the dark theme we have
[16:58] <persia> There's limits to how much we can diverge from iconography used over the entire Ubuntu project.  We an embrace it, and frame it, but not change it precisely.
[16:58] <persia> That said, those limits don't preclude some graphics, but they do provide some limits (check with the art team for the specifics of the boundaries for flavours).
[16:59] <persia> It's critical that we don't move from "flavour" to "derivative" or "remix", as we'd lose the ability to integrate with the rest of the project, and share the work.
[17:00] <rlameiro> persia: thats the reason i mentioned ckontros
[17:00] <scott-work> i had not considered the distinction before persia, you bring up some interesting points (i.e. flavour vs. derivative or remix)
[17:01] <persia> It was a *lot* of work to become a flavour, but being a flavour means we get more support from other teams (testing, bugsquad, MOTU, etc.).  It's not *lots* of support, but enough that I think it's worth keeping within the guidelines.
[17:02] <detrate-> well, I mean it in just a fanart kind of way
[17:02] <detrate-> so a stylized background image
[17:02] <detrate-> with the character from the release
[17:02] <detrate-> ~for creators, by creators~ type thing going on
[17:02] <persia> Right.  We just need to run that by the art team and make sure we're not deviating too much.
[17:03] <detrate-> oic
[17:04] <scott-work> detrate-: do you mean something like this   http://www.wallpaperstop.com/wallpapers/product-wallpapers/freebsd-wallpaper-240x150-0017.jpg
[17:04] <scott-work> but maybe in the corner?  and different animals?
[17:05]  * scott-work admits that he is a fan of a uncluttered desktop background image
[17:05] <scott-work> i just realized i was assuming where you wanted to put the stylish Maverick Meerkat, my apologies
[17:06] <rlameiro> yeah, we could have a clean desktop image
[17:06] <scott-work> detrate-: where did you want to use it?
[17:06] <detrate-> more like this -- though not necessarily tans http://juzo-kun.deviantart.com/gallery/#OS-Girls-and-computer-related-mascots
[17:07] <detrate-> anime can be a touchy subject ^_^
[17:08] <rlameiro> lol
[17:08] <rlameiro> for sure
[17:08] <rlameiro> :D
[17:08] <rlameiro> touchy it is
[17:08] <detrate-> but maybe something more like this http://fanart.lionking.org/Artists/Spiritwolf77/ZiruPrisma.jpg
[17:09] <rlameiro> i think it would never made it trough the artwork team
[17:09] <rlameiro> lol
[17:09] <detrate-> obviously not the one from the lion king :-P
[17:09] <rlameiro> hehe
[17:09] <detrate-> but as an example, a stylized meerkat with headphones on, maybe painting a picture
[17:09] <rlameiro> wel need to go to work
[17:09] <detrate-> or djing, who knows!
[17:09] <rlameiro> detrate: only if it is small on a corner for instance
[17:10] <rlameiro> or in the middle
[17:10] <rlameiro> but not to big
[17:10] <rlameiro> well
[17:10] <rlameiro> going now
[17:10] <detrate-> okey dokey
[17:10] <detrate-> I'm just getting the ball rolling on ideas, details can be worked out later
[17:10] <scott-work> detrate-: how about a meerkat taggin a wall, in the bottom right corner of the wallpaper
[17:11] <scott-work> spraying either the ubuntu studio icon or the words "ubuntu studio" on the wall
[17:11] <detrate-> scott-work: would that promote illegal activity though?   They happen to have (differing) support for MIDI, but they should be considered as score editors, not as enabling "MIDI".
[17:29] <scott-work> right, i was just using "midi(?)" to help frame the previous discussion
[17:30] <scott-work> but for the home enthusiasts (especially the ones who are not instrumentalists) this would be helpfull to create music
[17:30] <scott-work> this = musescore and lilypad
[17:31] <persia> For some definition of "create music" :)
[17:31] <persia> It's useful to generate a score, so if you can read/write scores, it's a great way to share music.
[17:31] <persia> But it's often not a useful way for people to generate audio streams.
[17:32] <persia> (except in that by generating a score, they may be able to work with others to have a recording session)
[17:33] <scott-work> i had come to understand that you can take a Bach sonnata and play it on, say a tuba using lilypad
[17:33] <scott-work> but i think i understand your larger issue
[17:34] <persia> Well, you kinda can.
[17:34] <persia> So if you transcribe the score into a score editor, you can then generate MIDI which can drive a tone generator.
[17:35] <persia> This tends to generate uninspired music though, as it typically has no expression.
[17:35] <persia> Or rather, expression is limited to that indicated in the score.
[17:36] <persia> scores have an inherent assumption that a human will be generating the audio from the score, and that the human in question will express themselves in the music.  This is why different musicians will record the same Bach sonata, and different folks will appreciate the different recordings differently.
[17:37] <persia> Computers aren't that smart, so they just play the indicated notes on the indicated (simulated) instrument for the indicated times (precise to the microsecond).
[17:37] <persia> Which ends up feeling "lifeless" or "uninspired" when later heard by humans.
[17:38] <persia> For rythym generators, there's been a lot of work in algorithms to "humanise" them, by subtly changing the timings to better match how humans tend to play (e.g. in a basic 4/4 backbeat, beats 2 and 4 come a little later than math suggests to provide wider emphasis on beats 1 and 3).
[17:39] <persia> But that only works for fairly simple models.  Attempting to apply such an algorithm to a fugue is an execise in futility.
[17:42] <scott-work> lol @ fugue comment
[17:42] <scott-work> but if the focus is to "create" music then neither lilypond nor musscore really assist
[17:42] <persia> Well, it depends.
[17:43] <persia> If one is creating electronica, it's mostly pointless, especially as much of this consists of looped samples.
[17:43] <persia> If one is doing choral work, it's absolutely critical, as one needs to inform the members of the choir.
[17:44] <persia> Most everything else falls inbetween: it depends on how many other humans are involved.
[17:44] <persia> (and how they want to receive instruction: some guitar players, for instance, prefer tabulature to scores)
[17:46]  * persia faintly dreams of the effective integration of vocoders, harmonizers, and text-to-speech generators
[17:49] <scott-work> i personally find tabulature very easy to read, while some other guitarist with whom i have associated could not use it in any manner (they could not read score either)
[17:50] <persia> Right.  Different folks need slightly different forms.  I presume the second guitarist in your example did best learning by ear.
[17:50] <scott-work> i wrote a song in an afternoone using hydrogen and espeak    last song under 2010 called "M C Azimov"  http://wirblewind.rpmchallenge.com/
[17:51] <scott-work> exactly, he wanted to learn one of the slower, more melodic solos that I typically performed and he required me to show him step-by-step
[17:51] <scott-work> either though we had the tabulature right there
[17:52] <scott-work> i used such words as dopplegangers in the Azimov song, it was great fun creating it!
[17:52]  * scott-work has to go to lunch meeting but will be trying to duck out early
[17:54] <persia> Heh.  That's fun.
[18:16] <detrate-> in the wiki, I feel like all [major] packages should be outlined with screenshots and links to official sites (if available)
[18:17] <persia> detrate-: Go for it :)
[18:17] <detrate-> I'm not saying do this NOW but ideally it would be quite beneficial
[18:17] <detrate-> persia: I don't really know much about the sound related software but when I find some time perhaps I can some for 2d art
[18:17] <detrate-> to give examples
[19:26] <detrate-> well I think some of this goes back to using wiki.ubuntustudio.org to an extent
[19:27] <detrate-> I think that would be an invaluable level of organization, especially if someone find out if we can edit header templates
[19:28] <scott-work> persia: i agree with your correction (developers vs. contributors), i tend to generalize into overt stereotypes far too easily
[19:29] <scott-work> detrate-: are you suggesting that we use wiki.ubuntustudio.org, which will use custom CSS, that will then link to the other pages?
[19:29] <scott-work> but the overall effect is to show a consistent view (format) of the information despite it coming from two different wikis?
[19:31] <persia> We're stuck with the help./wiki. split.
[19:31] <detrate-> well, I think its important to differentiate between enduser and developer focused documentation
[19:31] <detrate-> can we perhaps do help.ubuntustudio.org as well?
[19:31] <persia> There's no precedent at help.kubuntu.org
[19:32] <persia> We could probably do it, but would need coordination.  I'd suggest checking with the #ubuntu-docs folks.
[19:32] <detrate-> I don't really have the authority
[19:32] <detrate-> but I don't see why it wouldn't be doable from a technical standpoint
[19:32] <persia> You have the authority to ask them about how it might work.
[19:32] <detrate-> it's done for wiki and help is run off the same CMS
[19:33] <detrate-> is #ubuntu-docs on another server?
[19:33] <persia> No.
[19:33] <detrate-> it was empty when I joined
[19:34] <persia> Sorry.  It appears to be #ubuntu-doc
[19:38] <scott-work> persia:  please take this as the compliment it is intended to be;  sometimes you sound like Yoda, you are able to see things in a simple manner and state them likewise
[19:38] <detrate-> Okay, I've asked them some questions
[19:38] <scott-work> "You have the authority to ask them about how it might work."
[19:38] <persia> Thanks :)
[19:38] <scott-work> as where others (myself included) tend to over complicate issues
[19:40] <detrate-> check out this crazy css masking effect http://econsultancy.com/blog/016-online-pr-capitalisation-is-fine-but-caps-lock-isn-t
[19:40] <detrate-> on the logo (scroll up and down)
[19:40] <detrate-> I've never seen that implemented before
[19:41] <detrate-> I came across that trying to prove that you should capitalize text via the CSS layer
[19:41] <detrate-> because my in-house design team thinks it's cool to use capslock for headers all the freakin time
[19:41] <detrate-> and my interns sometimes like to just type out HEADER NAME in the HTML
[19:42] <detrate-> which I imagine is bad for SEO
[19:43] <detrate-> where >> <h2 class="uppercase">Header Name</h2> .uppercase { text-transform: uppercase; } << is still the same visually but my guess is it's treated nicer by the page rank algorithm
[19:44] <persia> Makes sense: most of the automated stuff is case sensitive.
[19:45] <detrate-> I figured it would be but had no proof
[19:47] <detrate-> So I'm guessing most of you are using GNOME?
[19:48] <scott-work> when i'm not at work and using windows, yes
[19:48] <scott-work> there are some people at ubuntuforums who use xfce or kde and then install the metapackages
[19:49] <scott-work> linux outlaws already have a stylish meerkat design for us     http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/145
[19:49] <scott-work> scroll down a bit, about 1/3
[19:56] <detrate-> sorry was distracted for a moment, one of the graphic artists came to speak with me
[19:57] <detrate-> you talking anout this? http://linuxoutlaws.com/files/squirrel-balls.jpg
[19:57] <detrate-> :-P
[20:02] <scott-work> yeah, that was it - that would be like Fab to think of that
[20:46] <rlameiro> hello
[21:20] <detrate-> I received information for #ubuntu-doc -- Matthew East has shown me a theme that answers some of my questions http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-docs/helpwiki-newtheme/annotate/head%3A/MoinMoin/theme/ubuntunew.py
[21:33] <persia> Excellent!
[21:33] <persia> mdke is a great contact in general, for documentation-related stuff.
[21:34] <detrate-> yes, we seemed to have a good rapport going so far
[21:34] <detrate-> would you like to see the log?


[12:45] <bochecha> hi everyone, it's me again, the Fedora dev who keeps running into weird issues with Ubuntu ^_^
[12:46] <bochecha> this time it's with Ubuntu LTS which has a way too old version of meson, I don't suppose that version could ever be updated, right? :-/
[12:47] <bochecha> FYI, this is the exact error: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cangjie/ibus-cangjie/-/jobs/56380320
[12:47] <bochecha> the install_symlink function was added in meson 0.61.0n and Ubuntu LTS has 0.61.2, which might have an issue with install_symlink :(
[12:51] <bochecha> actual error is this: ERROR: Tried to install symlink to missing file /usr/local/share/applications/org.freedesktop.cangjie.ibus.cangjie-setup.desktop
[12:54] <bochecha> I should note that with a more recent version of meson the problem doesn't happen, but I don't know which version fixed this issue :-/
[13:55] <jbicha> bochecha: we can't just upgrade meson to a newer version in stable Ubuntu releases. A targeted fix might be accepted
[13:56] <bochecha> yeah, I understand, I'll try to figure out what the fix has been in the more recent versions, but that's going to be hard :'(
[13:59] <jbicha> bochecha: we're going to release a new Ubuntu LTS soon 😉
[13:59] <bochecha> when will "soon" be? :-/
[14:00] <bochecha> and what version of meson will it have?
[14:01] <jbicha> ought to be end of next month https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/noble-numbat-release-schedule/35649 with meson 1.3.2
[14:02] <bochecha> oh, nice
[14:03] <bochecha> I'm still interested in getting the current LTS working though, as people might not upgrade right away once it's out, but now I have a way to get it to work, thank you :D
[14:04] <jbicha> bochecha: could you update your Ubuntu images? I'd expect latest to be 23.10 "mantic" (instead of lunar) and devel to be 24.04 LTS "noble" (instead of mantic)
[14:05] <bochecha> I'm using whatever gitlab CI has access to :shrug:
[14:05] <bochecha> (arf, no emojis in IRC)
[14:06] <bochecha> I take them from registry.freedesktop.org/cangjie/pycangjie
[14:07] <bochecha> so LTS is jammy :-/
[14:10] <jbicha> bochecha: could you ask them to update their containers?
[14:11] <bochecha> I'll try :shrug:
[16:19] <bochecha> jbicha, actually, I think I can do it myself... but this is using Buildah/Quay and I don't actually know how they work or how to do that xD
[16:19] <bochecha> I'm asking my expert :P
[16:52] <bochecha> so, it seems whenever I push a new commit on https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cangjie/build-essential then the CI is ran and that updates the container images
[16:53] <bochecha> which means I need to eagerly wait for the next LTS release to drop, and push a new commit after :)
[16:53] <bochecha> thank you jbicha