[00:52] <toresbe> I have a quick question about a bug I just submitted which I'm not sure got submitted right.
[00:53] <toresbe> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/194196 - under "Affects"
[00:53] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 194196 in linux "Fails to insert nVidia SATA disk modules on boot causing boot fail" [Undecided,New]
[00:53] <toresbe> does that mean the bug is being forwarded to the Kernel.org dudes? 'cause I think this is a kernel packaging issue
[00:55] <LaserJock> toresbe: I think the Ubuntu Kernel team will be looking at it
[00:55] <toresbe> LaserJock: great, that's my "target audience". :) thanks
[00:55]  * toresbe sticks around in case someone says LaserJock is wrong
[00:56] <LaserJock> you might also ask #ubuntu-kernel
[00:56] <toresbe> ah, right, thanks.
[00:59] <toresbe> LaserJock: solved, thank you
[00:59] <toresbe> (my confusion, not the bug :))
[00:59] <toresbe> bye!
[01:11] <toresbe> I'm seeing some very strange behavior in the tracker system, but I'm not sure where to report it.
[01:12] <toresbe> Well, launchpad, yes, but I don't know why this bug is occurring or anything. it's a rather strange bug.
[01:13] <blueyed> toresbe: post a bug in launchpad itself: https://help.launchpad.net/Feedback
[01:14] <toresbe> sorry, not *that* tracker system, but "tracker" the deb package :)
[01:14] <toresbe> I'd like to ask a tracker upstream developer about it... y'know where they might be found?
[01:15] <blueyed> toresbe: no. I would look at the homepage/google or just try #tracker
[01:15] <toresbe> #tracker's empty
[01:16] <toresbe> and "tracker" is quite difficult to google!
[01:16] <blueyed> http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/development.html
[01:16] <blueyed> via https://launchpad.net/tracker => Homepage
[01:16] <blueyed> IRC: GimpNet, channel #tracker
[01:17] <toresbe> aha! Thanks. :)
[01:17] <blueyed> often the mailing list might be better though :)
[01:17] <blueyed> good luck and good night.
[01:38] <toresbe> Hehe. I really like this bug.
[01:38] <toresbe> So - here's what's happening. tracker is searching along, and encounters a graphics file. It wants to thumbnail it, so it passes it along to convert. Convert creates a temporary file. Tracker notices that a file has been created. It notices it's an image file, so it wants to thumbnail it. It calls convert.
[02:16]  * Hobbsee wonders why stuff from firefox is only playing out of one speaker.
[02:18] <lifeless> because fox is singular ;)
[02:18] <lifeless> tchau!
[02:18] <bddebian> heh
[07:20] <pitti> Good morning
[07:22] <pitti> Keybuk: I am now
[07:52] <z5000man> I've got an issue with gutsy installation, can someone lend a hand, as i have been in like 10 different channels where noone talks
[08:12] <warp10> Good morning!
[08:15] <pitti> hey warp10
[08:24] <bryce> z5000man: sorry to hear of the troubles; this probably isn't the right channel either, but maybe try asking via answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[08:31] <evand> Agostino Russo and I are trying to determine whether a ntfs-3g panic occurs outside of virtual iron.  If someone would be so kind as to try installing Ubuntu 64-bit in Windows using Wubi from the latest daily live CDs, I would very much appreciate it.
[08:31] <evand> The panic occurs post-install, on the first boot.
[08:42] <dholbach> good morning
[08:48] <mdke> morning dholbach
[08:48] <dholbach> heya mdke
[08:54] <Mithrandir> is it just for me that sudo -u $USER -i (i386, hardy) segfaults?
[08:56] <cjwatson> WFM
[08:56] <Mithrandir> hm, ok.
[08:56] <toresbe> toresbe@mjollnir:~$ sudo -u postgres -i
[08:56] <toresbe> [sudo] password for toresbe:
[08:56] <toresbe> postgres@mjollnir:~$
[08:56] <toresbe> WFM2.
[08:57] <Mithrandir> toresbe: that's something else than what I asked about
[08:57] <Mithrandir> I wonder if it's related to me adding myself to a group just before.
[08:57] <toresbe> oh, $USER as in, the actual shell variable $USER, and not "whatever user". :)
[08:58] <Mithrandir> yes
[08:58] <cjwatson> oh, I misunderstood that too
[08:58] <toresbe> that works, too.
[08:58] <cjwatson> ditto
[08:59] <Mithrandir> it's related to pam_mount, it seems
[09:05] <evand> Riddell: Kubuntu Wubi works...sort of.  I need to fix the calling of kwin/dcop as they currently crash and leave you with just an X cursor, but the install goes through just fine.
[09:05] <evand> You just have to sit and stare at a mostly black screen and wait for it to reboot
[09:10] <Riddell> evand: exciting.  so I should be able to test it on my girlfriend's dual boot laptop without it wiping her windows partition?
[09:11] <evand> Riddell: indeed
[09:12] <evand> Riddell: Just pop in one of today's daily live CDs, then select "Install inside Windows"
[09:13] <evand> it'll create a C:\Ubuntu folder and add Kubuntu to the NT bootloader, both of which can be undone by running the Wubi uninstaller in Add / Remove programs
[09:20] <Riddell> evand: does today's daily CD include 20080221.1?
[09:20] <Riddell> I suppose it does in your timezone
[09:20] <Riddell> made at 21:41
[09:21] <evand> heh, indeed it does
[09:21] <evand> really any Kubuntu CD after the new livefs landed (I think that was day before yesterday, no?) will work
[09:25] <davmor2> out of curiosity will the language selector at the beginning of the cd look better than it does at the moment?
[09:26] <evand> davmor2: can you elaborate?
[09:28] <Riddell> he means the gfxboot menu that now pops up by default
[09:28] <Riddell> it's useful to non-english speakers but looks very out of place to those of us who don't need it
[09:28] <davmor2> evand: currently at the boot up of any *buntu cd you get the language selector over the top of the menu.  It's grey and blocky and looks cheap and tacky
[09:28] <evand> cjwatson: ^
[09:29] <Riddell> I suspect it would take a lot of gfxboot hacking to improve it notably
[09:29] <evand> SuSE seems to have done it with theirs, which I quite like, but I agree.  gfxboot is scary, and it would probably take quite a bit of work.
[09:30] <evand> or maybe that's a false memory, I'd have to check again
[09:30] <evand> Riddell: is there going to be a separate Kubuntu Alpha 5 announcement?
[09:30] <davmor2> Riddell: not even if you don't need it everything else on the cd looks nicely integrated and smooth but this looks like an after thought at the moment.  I can see that it is useful just ugly.
[09:31] <Riddell> evand: not if it's released at the same time
[09:34] <evand> Riddell: ah, well in case you end up needing them, I took some screenshots of the Kubuntu umenu and Wubi: http://evalicious.com/kubuntu/
[09:35]  * evand -> bed
[09:36] <Riddell> evand: excellent, thanks
[09:39] <cjwatson> davmor2: yes, it is kind of an afterthought. We'll try to improve the UI. In the meantime please accept that this is known (I think that this is the second time you've mentioned it)
[09:40] <davmor2> cjwatson: no first the other language thing is latter on in ubiquity
[09:45] <pitti> \o/ NEW queue == 0
[09:47] <soren> pitti: really?!? Wow.
[09:47]  * soren hugs pitti
[09:48]  * dholbach hugs pitti too
[10:01] <pitti> asac: can you please modify the firefox seeds in -desktop for firefox-3.0?
[10:02] <asac> pitti: why? all is fine imo
[10:02] <asac> firefox
[10:12] <Q-FUNK> did the PPA builders go belly up?
[10:13] <Q-FUNK> they fail a build becuase they try to include a non-existant sources.list item
[10:13] <cjwatson> Q-FUNK: URL to build log?
[10:13] <Q-FUNK> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/12152121/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.flashrom_0.0%2Br3112-1ubuntu2_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
[10:14] <Fujitsu> Q-FUNK: That's a #launchpad problem. Did you just activate your PPA now?
[10:14] <cjwatson> Q-FUNK: odd; presumably that *would* exist if it managed to build and publish anything
[10:14] <cjwatson> but yes, as Fujitsu says, better in #launchpad
[10:14] <Fujitsu> I can see why that would happen as of 1.2.2, though.
[10:14] <Q-FUNK> Fujitsu: no, I've been using it for a while already
[10:14] <Fujitsu> Q-FUNK: It was empty, though?
[10:14] <Q-FUNK> alright then
[10:14] <Q-FUNK> no
[10:15] <Q-FUNK> it wasn't empty
[10:15] <cjwatson> err, ok, that's very weird, that URL *does* exist
[10:15] <Q-FUNK> my gutsy PPA was laready in use
[10:15] <Q-FUNK> hardy was just activated with a 1st package today
[10:15] <Fujitsu> Ah, that's it, then.
[10:15] <saispo> any hibernate expert in the room ?
[10:15] <Q-FUNK> https://launchpad.net/~q-funk/+archive/+builds?build_text=&build_state=all
[10:15] <Fujitsu> Before 1.2.2, builds didn't start for up to 45 minutes after the source was uploaded.
[10:15] <Q-FUNK> but the gutsy package failed the same way
[10:16] <Fujitsu> As sources are published every 20 minutes, they were already published before the builder tried to update its sources.
[10:16] <Fujitsu> Now builds start immediately.
[10:16] <Q-FUNK> hm
[10:16] <Q-FUNK> weird
[10:16] <Q-FUNK> the builder produces different output than pbuilder does
[10:17] <Fujitsu> Q-FUNK: Those builds failed normally.
[10:17] <Fujitsu> Only hardy has that problem.
[10:17] <Fujitsu> Gutsy fails for legitimate reasons.
[10:17] <Q-FUNK> I'm not so sure.
[10:17] <Q-FUNK> her,e build works fine using pbuilder
[10:17] <Fujitsu> It's entirely unrelated, at any rate.
[10:18] <Fujitsu> It's a problem in the package, but it might not be picked up in pbuilder.
[10:19] <Q-FUNK> could be
[10:19] <Q-FUNK> is the PPA using sbuild?
[10:19] <Fujitsu> A horribly mangled sbuild, but yes.
[10:20] <Q-FUNK> horribly mangled might be the key.
[10:20] <Fujitsu> I don't find it likely that it could produce that kind of error.
[10:21] <Q-FUNK> http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/f/flashrom/
[10:21] <Q-FUNK> it builds fine on debian
[10:21] <Fujitsu> Debian's archive isn't identical.
[10:22] <Fujitsu> A lot of things fail to build here.
[10:22] <Q-FUNK> builders should be
[10:22] <Fujitsu> Er, why?
[10:22] <Fujitsu> We have completely independent archive and builder infrastructure.
[10:22] <Q-FUNK> they both are debian packages.  there's no reason for a complete fial on one distro and not on the other.
[10:22] <Fujitsu> Tell that to all of our FTBFS bugs.
[10:23] <cjwatson> there are plenty of reasons why that sort of thing might happen
[10:23] <Q-FUNK> hmm. ok
[10:23] <Q-FUNK> anyhow. thanks for the explanation
[10:23] <Q-FUNK> :)
[10:23] <cjwatson> in this case your CFLAGS seems not to be taking
[10:43] <pitti> asac: hm, but package 'firefox' is transitional, isn't it?
[10:44] <asac> pitti: nope ... meta
[10:44] <pitti> oh, argh, that
[10:44] <pitti>    firefox | 3.0~b3+nobinonly-0ubuntu2 | hardy/universe | all
[10:45] <pitti> then we need to promote it
[10:45] <asac> why is it in universe?
[10:45] <pitti> because I demoted source+binaries of firefox, and apparently soyuz got confused
[10:45] <asac> ah ok
[10:45] <pitti> promoted
[10:46] <asac> pitti: promote all firefox binaries: firefox + firefox-gnome-support + firefox-libthai (that will appear again in next upload) and firefox-dom-inspector
[10:46] <asac> pitti: well firefox-libthai is the only transitional package
[10:46] <asac> because the feature is now in core-xulrunner
[11:33] <davmor2> mjg59: ping
[11:37] <mjg59> davmor2: Hi
[11:37] <nrpil> .top
[11:38] <davmor2> mjg59: Riddell just asked me to have a word about an unusual effect in Kubuntu.  This display fades to black once you've logged in.
[11:39] <mjg59> Hm. Sounds like it may not be my problem :)
[11:40] <davmor2> Riddell: is thinking it might be a hal issue don't ask me why.
[11:40] <mjg59> Can't see how it would be a hal issue
[11:40] <mjg59> But it'd be nice to have some more background
[11:40] <Riddell> well I've no idea, but it doesn't seem to be kmilo or guidance which are the parts that touch brightness in kde
[11:40] <mjg59> hal will never alter anything without being told to
[11:41] <ion_> And sometimes when told to, he answers “I’m afraid I can’t do that, Dave”.
[11:41] <davmor2> Riddell: don't forget that guidance doesn't seem to be running.
[12:00] <davmor2> slangasek: cjwatson:  Ubiquity issue is sorted now run straight through to 100% :)
[12:01] <cjwatson> good stuff
[12:27] <Keybuk> jdstrand: around?
[12:44] <jdstrand> Keybuk: I'm a while for a while
[12:44] <jdstrand> wow, I just woke up
[12:45] <jdstrand> I'm around for a while
[12:45] <Keybuk> jdstrand: pitti and I were discussing PAM
[12:45] <Keybuk> and he mentioned you'd been working on a way to automatically change /etc/pam,d/common-auth for libpam-ldap
[12:46] <jdstrand> Keybuk: it's called auth-client-config.  it is profile based, and can switch pam and nsswitch.conf
[12:46] <jdstrand> it's in main
[12:46] <pitti> right, that was it
[12:47] <dredg> it works pretty well, especially in conjunction with things like puppet
[12:47] <jdstrand> basically if an admin knows what pam/nss settings he/she wants, then the admin can put the profile into the auth-client-config datase, run a command and *poof* the machine is updated
[12:47] <jdstrand> it doesn't do pam/nss configuration (and stacking) however-- the admin has to know what he/she wants
[12:49] <Keybuk> so it can't be used in postinst?
[12:50] <jdstrand> Keybuk: yes
[12:50] <Keybuk> yes it can't or yes it can? :p
[12:50] <jdstrand> Keybuk: it was designed to have the necessary flags in place to work safely in this regard
[12:50] <jdstrand> oh heh-- still sleppy
[12:51] <jdstrand> Keybuk: AKAIK, no package is using it for that
[12:52] <jdstrand> Keybuk: but /usr/share/doc/auth-client-config/README hasa blurb on it
[12:52] <jdstrand> Keybuk: it is largely untested in this regard, and ideally we would need to develop a policy to ensure safety
[12:52] <jdstrand> Keybuk: but I believe everything is there to do it properly
[12:53] <jdstrand> sleepy even
[12:53] <Keybuk> right, what would that policy look like?
[12:56] <jdstrand> Keybuk: postrm is easy: auth-client-config -p profile_name -a -r-- this will revert pam and nss for profile_name only if the current system settings match profile_name
[12:56] <Keybuk> what about install?
[12:56] <jdstrand> it reverts pam/nss to pre-auth-client-config settings
[12:57] <asac> dholbach: can i participate in five-a-day by just reporting to the log?
[12:57] <dholbach> asac: sure
[12:58] <jdstrand> Keybuk: thinking...
[12:58] <asac> dholbach: what bugs do qualify for that list? every bug touched? or only fix release/invalid/wontfix?
[12:59] <dholbach> asac: I think that if you contribution helps to get it fixed, that qualifies it :)
[13:01] <jdstrand> Keybuk: I think just a debconf question asking whether or not to activate the profile would be good enough, then use 'auth-client-config -a -p profile_name'
[13:01] <jdstrand> Keybuk: well, that may not be good enough
[13:02] <dredg> i think you're looking for something like redhat's authconfig :)
[13:02] <jdstrand> Keybuk: no, if it was a shared debconf key, I think that might do it
[13:04] <cjwatson> dredg: IME Red Hat tools are just about as difficult to port to Ubuntu/Debian as our tools would be in the opposite direction
[13:04] <dredg> cjwatson: very much so
[13:04] <cjwatson> distributions tend to build up a lot of infrastructure on which this sort of thing is built, and we're pretty divergent in those terms
[13:05] <jdstrand> dredg: redhat doesn't have a packaging policy like we do, so they can take shortcuts
[13:05] <dredg> while you can preseed some things, like libnss-ldap, you can't easily preconfigure pam. if you could preseed auth-client-config with a profile (or profile location it could slurp) and tell it to apply a profile
[13:06] <Keybuk> jdstrand: a-c-c has no knowledge of the default config, right?
[13:07] <jdstrand> Keybuk: no. but it can reset the system to pre-a-c-c values
[13:07] <jdstrand> Keybuk: when you apply a profile, it will comment out the old settiings.
[13:09] <Keybuk> right
[13:09] <Keybuk> does anything use a-c-c at the moment?
[13:09] <jdstrand> Keybuk: I had initially thought that pam and base-files might want to use auth-client config, along with ldap, kerberos, etc
[13:09] <jdstrand> but currently no packages use it that I am aware of
[13:10] <jdstrand> Keybuk: slangasek wasn't too keen on base-files and pam using it
[13:10] <jdstrand> Keybuk: he has a valid argument that pam stacking configuration should be handled by the packages
[13:11] <jdstrand> Keybuk: the problem is that is incredibly difficult once you get past a couple of pam mosules
[13:11] <jdstrand> modules
[13:11] <jdstrand> Keybuk: and in so doing, packaging makes assumptions about what the admin wants
[13:11] <dredg> plus pam config is very site specific
[13:11] <jdstrand> Keybuk: this conveniently bypasses all that, as long as the admin knows what she wants
[13:12] <jdstrand> not to mention-- this pam stacking configuration code for the packages doesn't exist yet :)
[13:12] <jdstrand> dredg: exactly
[13:13] <Mithrandir> I disagree about the site specific bit.  If you are using pam_ldap, you most likely want one type of config.  Ditto if you're using pam_mount.
[13:13] <jdstrand> Mithrandir: but no kerberos, for example
[13:14] <jdstrand> Mithrandir: and if you throw disconnected users in, there are various ways to do caching
[13:14] <jdstrand> not kerberos
[13:15] <Mithrandir> jdstrand: kerberos generally consists of putting pam_krb5.so into the local login files, not much work and very much stock
[13:15] <Mithrandir> as for caching, why can't we choose a sane default and stick with it?
[13:15] <jdstrand> Keybuk: a-c-c doesn't scale either for large numbers of profiles, but then, I on't think that is a big concern
[13:15] <Mithrandir> nobody is suggesting the files shouldn't be configuration files, just that we have a sane way to update the config programatically.
[13:16] <dredg> putting pam_krb5.so in, depends if you want pam-heimdal or mit pam-krb5. then you need to configure the module - do you want the config in krb5.conf or in the pam file?
[13:16] <jdstrand> Mithrandir: a-c-c will allow for programatically updating these
[13:16] <dredg> it's site specific.
[13:16] <cjwatson> what would base-files have to do with PAM configuration?
[13:17] <jdstrand> cjwatson: base-files provides nsswitch.conf
[13:17] <cjwatson> ah, ok
[13:18] <jdstrand> a-c-c supports profiles for just changing nsswitch.conf, or just changing pam as well
[13:18] <jdstrand> (ie, a profile doesn't have to do both-- there is a profile for using cracklib for example)
[13:19] <pitti> yay, I killed 50 hal bugs by triaging; does that count as 5-a-day? :)
[13:20] <dholbach> pitti: absolutely :)
[13:20]  * seb128 hugs pitti
[13:20] <jdstrand> Keybuk: I think there is some potential here for simplifying large deployments, as well as providing users with a good sane profile on install of a pam package-- but the packaging scripts policy need more thought
[13:20]  * seb128 hugs dholbach
[13:21] <jdstrand> I am happy to update a-c-c as needed for this of course
[13:21]  * dholbach hugs seb128 back
[13:23]  * Hobbsee hugs seb128 and dholbach
[13:23]  * dholbach hugs Hobbsee too
[13:23] <dholbach> is it a Hug Day and I missed it? :-)
[13:23] <Hobbsee> dholbach: what does this mean?
[13:23] <Hobbsee>  - Discussion of the process for requesting someone participation
[13:23] <Hobbsee> (temporarily or permanently). Agreement to review past activity and
[13:23] <Hobbsee> document process to smooth such occurrences if they were to happen in
[13:24] <Hobbsee> the future.
[13:24]  * seb128 hugs Hobbsee
[13:25] <dholbach> Hobbsee: there has been long mailing list threads and we thought it'd help to massage this into a concise wiki document
[13:25] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i don't understand.  the first is not valid english, and words may be missed, and i don't see the relevance of the second statement to the first.
[13:26] <dholbach> ugh, you're right
[13:26] <dholbach> "cease" is the missing word
[13:26] <dholbach> sorry
[13:26] <Hobbsee> ahhhh....
[13:26] <Hobbsee> right, that makes more sense then
[13:27] <dholbach> I'll ... err ... follow up :)
[13:27] <Hobbsee> i didn't think i was that dense.
[13:39]  * lamont finally notices the bind9 upload to hardy from last week, decides he maybe better fetch it and deal with adding that
[13:40] <lamont> jdstrand: did that get coordinated with a change in debian AppArmor?  or did we just fork bind9 while I wasn't looking?
[13:41] <jdstrand> lamont: ubuntu specific-- but changes are minimal
[13:42] <lamont> moving ownership of a file is not _MINIMAL_
[13:42] <jdstrand> lamont: you mean usr.sbin.named?
[13:42] <lamont>   * debian/control: Replaces apparmor-profiles << 2.1+1075-0ubuntu4 as we
[13:42] <lamont>     should now take control
[13:43]  * jdstrand nods
[13:43] <lamont> which requires coordination with the owner of apparmor
[13:43] <jdstrand> lamont: I meant simply in terms of the size of the diff
[13:43] <lamont> so that it _STOPS_ delivering it
[13:43] <jdstrand> lamont: I coordinated that with ubuntu's apparmor
[13:44] <lamont> right.  meaning that the package is now _FORKED_ until someone works with the debian apparmor maintianer
[13:44] <lamont> where it used to be one that we could just sync.
[13:44]  * jdstrand again nods
[13:45] <jdstrand> lamont: this was a server team FF directive
[13:45] <lamont> so now I get to decide if it's worth generating debian/control as part of the build (which makes me vomit), or just let y'all keep merging
[13:45] <lamont> has anyone even _started_ the discussion with debian's apparmor?
[13:45] <jdstrand> lamont: not that I am aware off
[13:45] <mathiaz> lamont: there isn't any apparmor package in debian.
[13:46] <jdstrand> of
[13:46] <lamont> mathiaz: that does help some...
[13:46] <lamont> is hardy going to let one choose between selinux and apparmor? or are we still stuck apparmor crap?
[13:47] <mathiaz> lamont: there is work done on the selinux front too.
[13:47] <jdstrand> lamont: selinux is in universe, but it will be much better supported by the system
[13:47] <jdstrand> lamont: with a kernel boot option, selinux can be turned on and apparmor disabled
[13:47] <lamont> jdstrand: selinux has always struck me as the better of the two...
[13:48] <jdstrand> lamont: it is in terms of security-- no doubt
[13:48] <jdstrand> lamont: the problem is usability for end-users
[13:48] <ScottK> lamont: Enabled apparmor is better than disabled SE Linux.
[13:48] <lamont> ScottK: I'm not 100% convinced of that.
[13:48] <mathiaz> lamont: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardySELinux for the state of selinux in Hardy
[13:48] <jdstrand> lamont: apparmor provides much better security than not having either, but is easier for people to get into
[13:49] <lamont> really good locks on a cheap door are not better than no locks on a solid door: they lead the owner to _THINK_ that he's secure, when he's not.
[13:49] <jdstrand> lamont: while I understand your point, I disagree.  apparmor is actually quite good with network daemons-- less so for local confinement (eg firefox)
[13:50]  * lamont didn't say apparmor was worthless... just that it's not the panacea it's sold as.
[13:50] <jdstrand> but still better than nothing for local confinement (every hurdle is better than nothing)
[13:51] <lamont> jdstrand: so long as the user understands that it's just a hurdle
[13:52] <jdstrand> jdstrand: everything is just a hurdle-- until you disconnect the network :)
[13:52] <jdstrand> and for local confinement, the power cord
[13:52] <jdstrand> (nice that I responded to myself, eh)
[13:53] <lamont> jdstrand: is it safe to assume that the patchset isn't in git anywhere?
[13:54] <jdstrand> lamont: not git for bind9
[13:54] <jdstrand> (apparmor is in bzr though, but I doubt you care about that part at this point)
[13:54] <lamont> XS-Vcs-Git: git://git.debian.org/~lamont/bind9.git
[13:55] <lamont> I was noticing that I hadn't actually uploaded postfix to debian last night, did that, and was tossing a couple more changes into bind9 before uploading that... which is how I noticed that someone had uploaded a new bind9 to ubuntu
[13:55] <lamont> so now this evening after work, I get to do more stuff, or I could save that for you.. :)
[13:56] <jdstrand> lamont: as debian doesn't have apparmor, I assumed the apparmor portion would just be a diff ubuntu would carry
[13:57] <jdstrand> I can do the git bit, but not until next week (I am technically on vacation right now)
[13:57] <lamont> jdstrand: why?  the package hasn't diverged in the past, other than security uploads for versions that debian wasn't shipping
[13:57] <lamont> iz OK.  I'll smack it around this evening
[13:57] <jdstrand> lamont: why what? why apparmor at all?
[13:58] <lamont> "why" == "why have an ubuntu diff and all the pain that brings"
[13:59] <lamont> admittedly, BIND is not postfix...
[13:59] <jdstrand> lamont: apparently my assumption was wrong wrt to git and the debian packaging
[13:59] <lamont> (postfix discovers which distro it's building for at build time and does the right thing)
[13:59] <Riddell> siretart: libxine1 is brining libmad onto the CDs
[14:00] <asac> how can i force mutt to reply to all instead of Mail-Follow-Up: ?
[14:00] <lamont> jdstrand: generally, if the debian maintainer is an active ubuntu devel (esp core team), one can expect that they're trying to do it all in one branch, unless that stops making sense...
[14:00] <lamont> and "stops making sense" goes a little beyond  some other definitions....
[14:01] <lamont> asac: if 'g' doesn't do it, then use cut-n-paste, your editor, and your firm confidence that you know better than the sender.
[14:01] <seb128> lamont: you can't expect everybody to know about that and try to get changes to debian first though
[14:01] <jdstrand> lamont: ok. well, like I said, if you'd like me to do the git stuff, I can next week.
[14:01] <lamont> seb128: I can too.  It's just not reasonable.
[14:01] <seb128> lamont: agreed that's better, when that doesn't happen the debian maintainer can also grab changes
[14:02] <lamont> seb128: yeah.  I'm just being grumbly this morning
[14:02] <lamont> while I'm grumbling....
[14:03] <lamont> is network-manager supposed to auto-discover a wireless net and connect to it?  I nuked it and reinstalled it on my gutsy laptop, and now I just have manual mode...
[14:03] <lamont> OTOH, gutsy is the first time that it was getting sane enough for me to consider leaving it on..
[14:04] <lamont> jdstrand: and pardon my being cranky
[14:04] <ScottK> lamont: You have to manually edit /etc/network/interfaces back to auto mode
[14:04]  * lamont had assumed that apparmor was in debian as well, which was wrong of me.
[14:04] <jdstrand> lamont: np :)
[14:04] <lamont> ScottK: and how does one know it's in "auto mode"?
[14:04] <lamont> and back to work for me
[14:06] <ScottK2> lamont: When /etc/network/interfaces says auto
[14:06] <jdong> intriguing. My macbook uses nearly 2W less power after a suspend than before.
[14:06] <jdong> (I meant after waking up from a suspend vs a cold boot)
[14:08] <jdong> bryce: oh btw, the xv debacle gets even weirder....
[14:09] <lamont> ScottK2: lew;/
[14:09] <lamont> kewl. even
[14:09] <jdong> bryce: it seems like only shortly after a VT switch into X, xv causes a hang. If I wait 10 secs or more after Compiz initializes or coming out of a suspend, it works just fine.
[14:09] <jdong> bryce: could that be some kind of AIGLX initialization race condition?
[14:21] <siretart> Riddell: how that?
[14:26] <\sh> siretart: libxine1: Recommends: libxine1-ffmpeg and suddenly we have Recommends installed by default? ,-)
[14:26] <Riddell> siretart: because it depends on libxine1-plugins which depends on libxine1-ffmpeg
[14:27] <siretart> Riddell: it installs recommended universe packages?
[14:28] <Riddell> it's a depends.
[14:28] <siretart> AFAIUI, recommends to universe packages should be installed by default
[14:28] <\sh> asac: looks like that ff3 and flash-nonfree doesn't honour my sound settings from gnome...the sound is still coming from the main speakers instead of the headset (other apps are working as expecting and giving me sound on the headset)
[14:28] <cjwatson> recommends-by-default isn't on yet
[14:28] <cjwatson> with the exception of metapackages
[14:28] <\sh> siretart: forget what I said...what riddell said is more correct
[14:29] <asac_> \sh: you use sound server?
[14:29] <\sh> asac_: well, what are we using by default= sound setting tells me: USB Audio  (Sennheiser)  so I think no sound server
[14:30] <siretart> Riddell: -plugins is a convenience package which drags in all xine packages. I didn't expect it to be an installation candidate on the live cd.
[14:30] <slytherin> jamesh: Can you please tell me (or publish somewhere) what is the format of entry to be added in rhythmdb.xml for the FM radio plugin (using tuner card)?
[14:30] <cjwatson> siretart: did you intend libxine1-misc-plugins to be used instead?
[14:30] <asac_> \sh: can you see if gnash works better?
[14:30] <asac_> \sh: (sound wise)
[14:30] <\sh> asac_: if gnash plays youtube, I can test it
[14:30] <cjwatson> siretart: if so, you should reverse the order of the |-ed dependency in libxine1
[14:31] <asac_> \sh: it should play a few
[14:32] <\sh> asac_: can I tell ff3 to use gnash exclusively without uninstalling adobe?
[14:34] <asac_> \sh: you could try to link the gnash.so to the .mozilla/plugins/ directory
[14:34] <asac_> maybe that will prefer it then
[14:34] <asac_> otherwise update the alternative
[14:36] <siretart> cjwatson: well, we used to ship all xine modules in earlier releases. now the modules are split across smaller packages. I had an argument with the debian release team, and vorlon explained to me that not depending on all plugin packages would break partial upgrades
[14:37] <siretart> I understand that this affects dapper->hardy upgrades
[14:37] <\sh> asac_: I updated the alternative...but no gnash
[14:37] <\sh> argl...
[14:38] <siretart> TBH, I'd prefer to just drop the dependency on -plugins
[14:39] <\sh> asac_: no ways ... it prefers adobe...purguing it
[14:41] <pecisk> which package provides live cd grub menu at the begining? I need to translate it but I can't find which package it is
[14:42] <asac> \sh: the alternative is named xulrunner-addons-flashplugin
[14:43] <asac> anyway purging should help too
[14:43] <asac> be sure that you have no flashplugin in your .mozilla/plugins dir
[14:43] <\sh> asac: yep
[14:43] <asac> who is eclipse/swf package liason for ubuntu
[14:46] <cjwatson> pecisk: that isn't grub
[14:46] <cjwatson> pecisk: gfxboot-theme-ubuntu is the one you're looking for
[14:46] <pecisk> ok, then what it is?
[14:46] <pecisk> thanks ;)
[14:47] <\sh> asac: tells me all the time, that I have to install a flash plugin...gnashplugin is installed, but it gives me all the time this...(youtube, video.google. etc.)
[14:47] <asac> \sh: oh i think the link is still missing :)
[14:48] <asac> \sh: do ln -s /usr/lib/gnash/libgnashplugin.so $HOME/.mozilla/plugins/
[14:50] <\sh> asac: ok...now...youtube works somehow, but no sound
[14:50] <\sh> asac: video.google no ways to get it to work
[14:51] <xivulon> If anyone has a 64bit machine + windows + 5GB free, please test Wubi on latest daily ISO
[14:51] <asac> \sh: interesting ... maybe the the fluendo mp3 plugin for gstreamer works better
[14:51] <xivulon> we have mixed reporst on that, and some clarification would be nice in light of the coming release
[14:52] <\sh> asac:  15:52:03: ERROR: Unimplemented: MovieClip.attachAudio()
[14:54] <asac> \sh: try a different youtube video ... there are a few players in use that use different swf functions afaik
[14:55] <\sh> asac: well, I have tried a  lot of...even our own app (which is using flash normally) is not working ;)
[14:55] <ScottK> asac: re eclipse I don't think we have one.  It's generally whoever touched it last (which thankfully isn't me any more).
[14:56] <xivulon> Whether wubi works (or not) please report it to myself or evand in #ubuntu-installer
[14:56] <asac> ScottK: someone claimed that latest milestone supports xulrunner 1.9
[14:57] <\sh> asac: totem <foo>.flv (downloaded with youtube-dl) works like a charm :)
[14:57] <brettalton> Can I get help on compiling a package into .deb format?
[14:57] <brettalton> am I in the right place?
[14:57] <ScottK> asac: It's going to stay not me who touched it last.  Sorry.  No time to look into it.
[14:57] <asac> \sh: ok then gnash would work as well i guess
[14:57] <\sh> asac: gnash doesn't play .flv just swfs
[15:01] <\sh> asac: but gnash failes when opening a youtube url, (where the player comes from)..
[15:02] <brettalton> can someone help me compile ProjectPier and/or KohanaPHP in .deb format?
[15:02] <brettalton> KohanaPHP should be similar to phpMyAdmin where it installs to /usr/share/phpmyadmin
[15:05] <\sh> asac: any possibility to set the adobe plugin to a more "noisy" mode? or how would you debug ff3 + flash plugin to find out what it does
[15:07] <jakob__> Hi! The infamous "High frequency of load/unload cycles on some hard disks may shorten lifetime"-Bug:
[15:07] <jakob__> What does it take to get the Debian Patch into Hardy?
[15:08] <jakob__> And then as a SRU into Gutsy.
[15:08] <jakob__> Patch is here already: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/12024340/debian-hdparm-fix.debdiff
[15:09] <jdong> jakob__: we do not do that by default, and I assume anyone who turns on that acpi-support option wants aggressive power savings
[15:09] <jdong> which doesn't come free
[15:10] <Ng> that patch is not a fix, it's a workaround at best and harmful at worst
[15:10] <jdong> 128 still lowers disk life just to a lesser degree
[15:10] <jdong> it also saves power to a much lesser degree
[15:11] <jdong> we should do a FFT on the disk activity history to predict when it's optimal to park the disk!!!
[15:11] <jakob__> Well, i didn't turn on acpi-support.
[15:12] <jakob__> It's the HD default.
[15:12] <jdong> jakob__: what package is that against? hdparm?
[15:12] <jakob__> The patch is a workaround, yes.
[15:12] <jakob__> No, against acpi-support.
[15:12] <jakob__> It's installed by default.
[15:13] <jdong> acpi-support is installed by default, but we do not set any hdparm disk modes by default
[15:13] <jakob__> Laptop HDs have crazy power managemant defaults.
[15:13] <jdong> I don't see why we should be forcing a particular mode (128)
[15:13] <cjwatson> jakob__: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77672.html if you haven't read it already
[15:14] <jakob__> Seen it already.
[15:14] <jdong> jakob__: well I don't see why Ubuntu should blindly apply such workarounds to all systems when those affected can do it themselves
[15:14] <jdong> jakob__: I don't make Ubuntu send my laptop into suspend and resume in rc2.d
[15:14] <jakob__> Yeah, but the workaround is quite difficult.
[15:14] <jdong> even though my particular laptop requires that :)
[15:15] <jdong> my hard drive defaults to -B 1 (disabled). Setting -B 128 will lower my disk life by that argument.
[15:15] <Keybuk> jakob__: I've yet to see conclusive proof of anybody with a laptop hard drive killed by their BIOS's default power management settings
[15:15] <jakob__> Probably the workaround should become a independent package?
[15:15] <jdong> jakob__: not to mention I have one laptop harddrive with 15 million park cycles
[15:15] <jakob__> You mean, the excessive parking is not harmful?
[15:15] <jdong> and it is still working
[15:15] <jdong> jakob__: there's no conclusive proof of it, no
[15:15] <jakob__> Ok, i see.
[15:16] <Keybuk> jakob__: on all of the laptops I've looked at, the amount of parking was consistent with the manufacturers recommendations and expected life of the drive
[15:16] <jdong> jakob__: the load cycle limit spec on the disk is not exactly a ticking timebomb
[15:16] <Keybuk> it hasn't helped that most people pasting SMART values have misunderstood them and actually not pasted the important values!
[15:16] <jakob__> Ok, so what to do about the angry users (lots of them out there)?
[15:16] <Keybuk> the load cycle limit specifies when the drive will be considered "old" by the manufacturer
[15:16] <jdong> jakob__: what do you propose we do? Set the wallpaper to a large bold message explaining their blogposts were false?
[15:17] <Keybuk> Ubuntu increases this at a rate that would roughly coincide with the time factor of when it would be considered "old" as well
[15:17] <cjwatson> jakob__: Matthew already posted a clear response and it's been largely ignored or misread; what do you propose we do?
[15:17] <jakob__> Package the workaround?
[15:17] <Keybuk> jakob__: users feelings have been stirred up by the media, without any technical basis for the problem
[15:17] <jakob__> To make it easy to apply.
[15:17] <Keybuk> the workaround isn't working around anything though
[15:17] <jdong> jakob__: no other OS does something this silly
[15:18] <jdong> jakob__: and your workaround penalizes (parks more often) properly working hard drives
[15:18] <cjwatson> we package workarounds to real problems, not injured feelings
[15:18] <Keybuk> it's a workaround for bad publicity
[15:18] <Keybuk> not a workaround for technical problems
[15:18] <jakob__> Well, Debian does it...
[15:18] <cjwatson> if it is demonstrated to be a real problem, then it becomes a different matter
[15:18] <jakob__> Ok. Then the Bug shouldn't be critical?
[15:18] <\sh> jakob__: tell those users to buy a sun x4500 with 48 500g sata drives...and that they have to renew them every year at least once...even if the manufacture of the drives are not saying they are old...what you have in your desktop is more crappy then that what you have in your laptop...regard the fact, you are travelling with your laptop in suspend/switched off mode a lot more then you do with your desktop/server
[15:19] <jdong> jakob__: the only thing that I would do in Ubuntu is in the comments of /etc/default/acpi-support, warn that ENABLE_LAPTOP_MODE sets the hard disk to aggressive mgmt by default
[15:20] <Keybuk> jakob__: the bug is marked critical by a user
[15:20] <jakob__> I see.
[15:20] <jdong> if your disk firmware or BIOS is setting insane settings.... that's not really the business of the OS to resolve
[15:20] <\sh> cjwatson: the old toshiba r200 used on windows a tool which parked the drive head every time you touched the laptop a bit harder...just because to protect the user for drive damage...it harmed the user more to park the head, then to disable this tool in general
[15:20] <Keybuk> jdong: arguably the OS should help
[15:21] <Keybuk> (we used to fix insane DSDTs)
[15:21] <Keybuk> but we've yet to see evidence of alleged insane settings
[15:21] <jdong> Keybuk: but help in a more sane manner than blindly forcing -B 128
[15:21] <jdong> Keybuk: monitoring how SMART values change over time could be useful for a Hardy+1 spec
[15:22] <Keybuk> isn't that exactly what smartd does? :p
[15:22] <jdong> Keybuk: isn't that what we don't offer by default or have a nice dbus notify bubble frontend for? :)
[15:22] <\sh> cjwatson: especially this little drive is working after the laptop felt on the floor...display dead, drive alive
[15:22] <Keybuk> that's a different matter :)
[15:23] <jakob__> Probably make the pm setting GUI-configurable?
[15:23] <Keybuk> jakob__: e.g.
[15:23] <Keybuk> 193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   059   059   000    Old_age   Always       -       412916
[15:23] <jdong> Keybuk: oh btw, do I cry to you if sysfs power supply sucks at detecting that my ac cord is unplugged?
[15:23] <Keybuk> from my own laptop
[15:23] <Keybuk> it self-claims that the drive has 59% of its load cycle count left
[15:23] <pecisk> in which package I can find graphical installer translations?
[15:23] <Keybuk> until it is considered old
[15:24] <jakob__> Hm those values are seldum linear
[15:24] <Keybuk> it's about 18 months old, and the drive is manufacturer rated for three years
[15:24] <jakob__> seldom
[15:24] <Keybuk> jakob__: the entire point of the three digit ones is that they are normalised
[15:24] <Keybuk> it's the last number that's never linear
[15:25] <cjwatson> pecisk: debian-installer
[15:25] <cjwatson> pecisk: (I know it's a little weird to look there, but all the installer translations are collected there)
[15:25] <Keybuk> (and in most of the hysteria, it's only the last number people have looked at - and compared it to a number somebody once plucked out of the air)
[15:26] <pecisk> :))
[15:26] <pecisk> thanks guys
[15:27] <jakob__> Retracting while on AC power is quite useless, the drive can't know about that.
[15:28] <jakob__> Ok, the dev position is that it doesn't harm either... Probably, yes.
[15:28] <Keybuk> quite useless ?
[15:28] <jakob__> Yes
[15:29] <Keybuk>  * Scott uses his laptop in bed while plugged into AC power, he'd like it to not overly burn him or have head crashes
[15:29] <jakob__> Dropping it with a power cord plugged in is unusual
[15:29] <jakob__> Hmm...
[15:29] <ScottK> Actually my most common laptop drop scenario is tripped over the power cord.
[15:29] <Keybuk> I think that the only time I've ever "dropped" a laptop has been *because* of the AC cord!
[15:29] <jakob__> ^^
[15:30] <jakob__> Have you applied the workaround?
[15:30] <jakob__> The "workaround"
[15:30] <Keybuk> I have no reason to
[15:30]  * ScottK just leaves it all in it's default configuration.
[15:31] <Keybuk> 193 Load_Cycle_Count        0xc720   088   214   032    Old_age   Offline      -<PHONE_NUMBER>11008
[15:32] <Keybuk> (pretty much proof that the load cycle count doesn't kill hard drives)
[15:32] <jakob__> lol
[15:33] <Keybuk> that one still works just fine
[15:33] <jakob__> Looks like corrupt data
[15:33] <Keybuk> nah
[15:33] <Keybuk> it came out of a Sky+ box
[15:33] <Keybuk> they have *really* aggressive power management by default
[15:33] <jakob__> Age?
[15:33] <Keybuk> a few years
[15:33] <Keybuk> less than 5
[15:34] <jakob__> That's 807380 load cycles.
[15:34] <jakob__> PER SECOND.
[15:35] <Keybuk> err, more than 5
[15:35] <jakob__><PHONE_NUMBER>11008/5/365/24/3600
[15:36] <jakob__> +/- few years doesn't make a difference here. That's corrupt data.
[15:36] <Keybuk> they pretty much do "load mpeg frame", "park", "unpack", "load mpeg frame", etc.
[15:36] <jakob__> Yeah, but nut 100000 times a second.
[15:38] <Keybuk> 50,000
[15:38] <Keybuk> since it counts load and unload
[15:38] <Keybuk> 0.2ms response, that's about right
[15:39] <Keybuk> but pretty much proves that
[15:39] <Keybuk>  a) you can't trust that number for anything
[15:39] <Keybuk>  b) its value is meaningless
[15:39] <Keybuk>  c) hard-drive manufacturers hate you
[15:39] <jakob__> ;)
[15:40] <Keybuk> I went digging last time this came up
[15:40] <cjwatson> even if it is corrupt: if it can be corrupt in one drive, it can be corrupt in another, even if the resulting number is smaller
[15:40] <Keybuk> and proved that according to the manufacturer, you can't operate a hard drive within the usual temperatures for a desktop computer
[15:40] <cjwatson> for evidence you need an actual scientific controlled experiment
[15:41] <jakob__> Keybuk: You can't what?
[15:43] <Keybuk> jakob__: the drive in my desktop is usually about 31°C iirc
[15:43] <Keybuk> (I put a thermometer on it)
[15:43] <pecisk> in which package I can find network-manager GUI strings? I can't find it :(
[15:43] <Keybuk> it's only rated by the manufacturer up to 28°C
[15:43] <jakob__> Really? Strange drive...
[15:44] <seb128> pecisk: network-manager-gnome
[15:44] <jakob__> Another point is that the load-unload click is
[15:44] <jakob__> 1) annoying
[15:44] <jakob__> 2) raises latency
[15:44] <jakob__> That's why i applied the workaround.
[15:45] <pecisk> seb128: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/network-manager-gnome/+pots/network-manager-gnome/lv/+translate
[15:45] <pecisk> it says it can't find it
[15:45] <jakob__> I don't know if "annoys people" is enough to do something about it. Is it?
[15:48] <seb128> pecisk: the source network-manager-applet
[15:48] <pecisk> ok, thanks
[15:49] <seb128> you are welcome
[15:49] <cjwatson> "annoys people" is not enough if the workaround causes damage to other people's systems
[15:49] <cjwatson> which has been alleged here
[15:49] <jakob__> Would a patch that makes the pm setting configurable through some /etc file make it through? I'd probably write that then.
[15:49] <cjwatson> surely it is already configurable in /etc/hdparm.conf
[15:50] <jakob__> Not after resume?
[15:51] <jakob__> Because of that users download strange stuff from forums and drop it anywhere in their systems.
[15:51] <jdong> hook restart hdparm into resume?
[15:51] <jdong> *shrug* sounds possibly reasonable
[15:51] <jakob__> Yes, something like that.
[15:51] <cjwatson> I'm sorry, but we cannot prevent users downloading strange stuff from forums and dropping it into their systems
[15:52] <cjwatson> I know that the ubuntuforums guys try to keep the level of that sort of thing under control
[15:52] <Keybuk> cjwatson: perhaps its time to resurrect that idea of not giving users root on their own machines? <g>
[15:52] <jakob__> You can. By making it configurable by default.
[15:52] <jdong> yeah, we do, but again users tend to come up with interesting workarounds faster than we can read them :)
[15:52] <cjwatson> jakob__: that won't actually help
[15:53] <cjwatson> people will continue to fail to find the configurability for one thing or another, and instead do something else
[15:53] <jakob__> Yeah, of course.
[15:53] <cjwatson> making it configurable on the desktop might help
[15:53] <cjwatson> something in /etc probably won't make a whole lot of difference
[15:53] <jakob__> But in this case, the configurability doesn't exist.
[15:54] <cjwatson> though for things that are configurable on the desktop, we need to be very sure that we completely understand the issues and can explain them clearly in the UI
[15:54] <cjwatson> otherwise it's:
[15:54] <cjwatson> Make my computer work one way <-----------> Make my computer work a different way
[15:54] <cjwatson> possibly s/work/break/g
[15:54] <jakob__> Yeah, of course.
[15:55] <jakob__> But hdparm should be hooked into resume.
[15:55] <jakob__> Because the hdparm.conf is quite pointless otherwise,
[15:55] <cjwatson> I think that would be reasonable
[15:55] <jakob__> (when on a laptop)
[15:58] <jakob__> But it doesn't know about AC or batt then
[15:59] <jakob__> Just leave that to laptop-mode..?
[16:00] <pitti> seb128: sorry, have class now; I think I fixed the retracer, but we lost some bugs due to untagging and crashing
[16:00] <pitti> seb128: do you think you can take a look at the log, re-tag some bugs, and check whether it works now?
[16:01] <seb128> pitti: will do, thanks
[16:01] <Keybuk> I've always mused how hardware events get dealt with during suspend
[16:01] <Keybuk> if you unplug a device while suspended
[16:01] <Keybuk> how does it know?
[16:02] <LaserJock> my computer knows eeeeeverything
[16:07] <jakob__> Hooking hdparm into resume... There is a kernel argument "nohdparm" that has to be obeyed.
[16:07] <jakob__> So it's not _that_ trivial.
[16:08] <Keybuk> surely you just /etc/init.d/hdparm restart ?
[16:09] <jakob__> Ah. Right. That handles the kernelarg.
[16:10] <jakob__> "Feature freeze" means that can't get into hardy, right?
[16:10] <jakob__> Hm, won't that overwrite laptop-mode settings at resume?
[16:13] <Keybuk> sodomy non sapiens
[16:14] <jakob__> Anyway. Does somebody think about writing a patch for this?
[16:14] <jakob__> If not i'd probably try.
[16:14] <jakob__> If somebody would probably commit it then.
[16:16] <Keybuk> jakob__: PPA :-)
[16:17] <jakob__> Keybuk: Uhmm, which of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPA
[16:18] <Keybuk> Pro-pedophile activism
[16:18] <Keybuk> oh man
[16:18] <Keybuk> jakob__: this one https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
[16:19] <jakob__> Thx :)
[16:19] <mrcheeks> Can I ask about a hardy related bug here?
[16:21] <jakob__> I got to go now, thanks for the discussion, i'll do something about the hdparm-resume-stuff next week.
[16:22] <Keybuk> mrcheeks: if you have a patch for it, sure
[16:23] <Keybuk> mrcheeks: if you have more information, it's better to just add it directly to the bug
[16:24] <mrcheeks> Keybuk:I don't know how to fix it, so I don't have the patch... I am not able to login from gdm or a terminal, I guess it is a bash issue
[16:24] <Keybuk> mrcheeks: #ubuntu would be more able to help you
[16:24] <mrcheeks> thanks
[16:32] <\sh> soren: is it possible to have sound output in one or more xen instance?
[17:03] <pitti> seb128: ok, class is over
[17:03] <pitti> seb128: taking a look now
[17:12] <geser> pitti: Please give-back delo. It should build now with the fixed pkg-create-dbgsym. Thanks.
[17:23] <pitti> urllib2.HTTPError: HTTP Error 403: Forbidden
[17:23] <pitti> meh
[17:24] <pitti> geser: done
[17:28] <DktrKranz2> pitti: stani confirmed Feisty is not affected by bug 124896. Can you delete 0.8.2a+repack-1ubuntu0.7.04 from feisty-proposed?
[17:28] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 124896 in spe "spe 0.8.2a+repack-1 fails with python-wxgtk2.8" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/124896
[17:31] <pitti> seb128: meh, hardy apport chroot is all crash-o-rama due to p-lp-bugs
[17:31] <seb128> :-(
[17:31] <pitti> seb128: I guess I will install the upstream trunk patch on Monday
[17:31] <pitti> I just need to leave soon
[17:31] <seb128> ok
[17:32] <pitti> so if you want to give it a shot, please go ahead
[17:32] <seb128> ok, I might have a look
[17:32] <pitti> seb128: use bug 194406 as test case
[17:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 194406 in gnome-utils "gnome-dictionary crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194406
[17:32] <pitti> I opened it
[17:32] <seb128> would you suggest rather picking changes or trying to use trunk?
[17:32] <seb128> ok
[17:32] <pitti> it needs apport-chroot login (see history), edit python files, save, re-tagbug, run crash-digger
[17:33] <pitti> wash rinse repeat
[17:33] <pitti> seb128: I honestly don't know
[17:33] <seb128> ok, I'll manage
[17:33] <seb128> thanks for the efforts you already put into it
[17:33] <pitti> seb128: hm, now that I opened it you should actually be able to use "apport-retrace -s 199406" in the chroot
[17:33] <seb128> I should be able to do those changes
[17:33] <pitti> that's much quicker than re-compressing the chroot everytime and calling the digger
[17:33] <seb128> ok, cool
[17:33]  * seb128 hugs pitti
[17:34] <pitti> so, edit the python, call apport-retrace -s 199406 until it works
[17:34]  * pitti hugs seb128, thanks
[17:57] <dholbach> MOTU Q&A Session in #ubuntu-classroom in a bit
[18:20] <pochu> How's alpha 5 coming?
[18:21] <davmor2> pochu: getting there :)
[18:21] <pochu> davmor2: cool. It's targetted for today, right?
[18:22] <davmor2> as far as I know.  Most of the cd's are tested a few bugs but nothing really major anymore
[18:25] <slangasek> yes, it's still targetted for today
[18:26] <slangasek> sooner if someone wants to help test ubuntu studio, xubuntu images
[18:27] <davmor2> slangasek: burning Xub now is it just the desktop?
[18:27] <Keybuk> slangasek: so, one piece remains
[18:27] <slangasek> just desktop this time, yes; alternates were oversized and I got no response from xubuntu devs to my pings about it
[18:27] <slangasek> Keybuk: ?
[18:28] <Keybuk> change the default common-auth in libpam-runtime, this would still seem to require postinst fu to change the existing common-auth since it won't do it othewise
[18:28] <Keybuk> OR
[18:28] <Keybuk> apply sed-fu in libpam-thinkfinger postinst to modify common-auth when it's installed
[18:28] <Keybuk> OR
[18:28] <slangasek> Keybuk: well, there's existing pam postinst fu for upgrading to a new default common-auth
[18:29] <Keybuk> use auth-client-config to change it
[18:29] <Keybuk> slangasek: execpt the existing fu doesn't get used except on install
[18:29] <slangasek> er, not true unless someone broke it?
[18:29] <slangasek> if [ -z "$2" ] || dpkg --compare-versions "$2" lt 0.76-17
[18:29] <slangasek> ||
[18:29] <Keybuk> ah, so I could just increase that version?
[18:30] <Keybuk> wouldn't that break the "respect the user deleting the conffile" check though?
[18:30] <Keybuk> since it'd put them all back
[18:30] <slangasek> and stow the md5sum of the current config file in the list
[18:31] <slangasek> ummm... I suppose, but I'm generally uninterested in use cases that involve users willfully breaking their setup :)
[18:31] <Keybuk> I just mention it, since the comment in that file implies the maintainer wanted to preserve that
[18:32] <Keybuk> and since the maintainer is either you
[18:32] <Keybuk> or a prior incarnation of you
[18:32] <Keybuk> ... :)
[18:32] <davmor2> does anyone know the current state of gvfs' obex-ftp module?
[18:33] <slangasek> Keybuk: well, since I failed to implement my comment correctly, feel free to ignore it too :-)
[18:33] <Keybuk> slangasek: :-)
[18:33] <slangasek> we can fix it up later, low priority
[18:33] <Keybuk> slangasek: so do you think that libpam-runtime is the right place to do this?
[18:33] <jdong> pitti: may I try to plea the case to you that the two-batteries-in-gpm issue was fixed wrongly?
[18:33] <Keybuk> if so, should that recommend the other package?
[18:34] <jdong> pitti: i.e. sure "a battery" is not shown anymore but IMO the wrong one is being shown
[18:34] <slangasek> Keybuk: yes to the first, for the second I have no opinion
[18:34] <jdong> pitti: or do you feel this should be a bug filed against the kernel or hal for sysfs battery readouts sucking?
[18:34] <Keybuk> pam is ok if a module mentioned in common-auth doesn't actually exist?
[18:35] <slangasek> the config does need to be tested to make sure it works when the module doesn't need to exist, but AFAIK it's /supposed/ to work
[18:35] <Keybuk> (I assume so, since pam_foreground mentioned in common-session doesn't exist)
[18:36] <slangasek> yeah, should still be tested to make sure there are no differences wrt "optional" vs. "sufficient" modules
[18:37] <Keybuk> slangasek: so why isn't the current common-auth md5sum in the common-auth.md5sums file?
[18:37] <slangasek> Keybuk: because we don't bother adding it there until the file itself has been superseded
[18:37] <Keybuk> ah right
[18:41] <Keybuk> slangasek: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/pam_<IP_ADDRESS>-5ubuntu5.debdiff
[18:41] <Keybuk> slangasek: does that looks reasonable to you?
[18:46] <slangasek> Keybuk: is 'try_first_pass' really appropriate here? is pam_thinkfinger ever going to prompt for a password?
[18:47] <slangasek> doesn't hurt much if it doesn't, and would be consistent with a config generated by the new pam framework stuff, so no big deal
[18:47] <slangasek> otherwise, looks good
[18:47] <Keybuk> slangasek: it does prompt, yes
[18:47] <Keybuk> since you obviously want to be able to swipe your finger *or* type a password
[18:48] <slangasek> that's true, but what does pam_thinkfinger think it's going to do with the password when it has it? :P
[18:49] <slangasek> I'd call that a bug in pam_thinkfinger for prompting for things that are none of its business
[18:49] <Keybuk> nothing, it just passes on to the next authentication
[18:49] <Keybuk> does PAM give you any way to prompt for something that's not a text entry field? :)
[18:49] <slangasek> there's a Linux-PAM extension for binary prompts, yes...
[18:49] <Keybuk> can you have multiple PAM modules active at once
[18:49] <Keybuk> e.g.
[18:50] <slangasek> it's basically a poor reimagining of SASL :-P
[18:50] <Keybuk> simultaneously have pam_thinkfinger and pam_unix waiting for input
[18:50] <Keybuk> with one cancelling the other?
[18:50] <slangasek> nope
[18:50] <Keybuk> so it wouldn't work your way ;)
[18:50] <Keybuk> you'd have to swipe your finger, or press some key to move on to trying a password, no?
[18:50] <slangasek> yeah, with that constraint, that's valid
[18:51] <slangasek> unfortunately, it means that if your next module in the stack is something like, say, pam_opie, you don't get a useful prompt
[18:51] <Keybuk> opie?
[18:52] <slangasek> one-time-pass module
[18:52] <Keybuk> I think upstream basically just want to bypass PAM for the biometric stuff
[18:52] <Keybuk> since it doesn't quite fit the model
[18:53] <slangasek> (hmm, worse would be trying to stack with SecureID... :)
[18:54] <Keybuk> it's not so much a stack, as an alternative
[18:54] <slangasek> for PAM values of "stack"... :)
[18:55] <Keybuk> e.g. at a login prompt, you shouldn't even need to ask for a username
[18:55] <slangasek> davmor2: hrm, I definitely haven't noticed bug #194007 in my testing of Ubuntu, I think I would've noticed if my keyboard had suddenly switched out of Dvorak... was this Kubuntu-specific, or maybe keymap-specific?
[18:55] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 194007 in ubiquity "Ubiquity keyboard is not being setup after world map." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194007
[18:57] <evand> slangasek: it's just not picking a proper default.  So you'll end up on USA - USA every time.
[18:57] <slangasek> Keybuk: so what's the prompt that pam_thinkfinger gives the user as the alternative?  Does it ask for the username first, or the password?
[18:58] <slangasek> evand: oh, so it should be hinting a keyboard preference and it isn't?  Fair enough
[18:58] <evand> slangasek: indeed, I've updated the bug title to reflect that
[18:58] <slangasek> I don't think I'll bother release-noting that one
[18:58] <davmor2> slangasek: No across the board.  It does actually change your keyboard.  But I for example set my language as english and time zone as London.  With the old ubiquity this set my keyboard to Uk English.  Now however it stays on Us English until you change it.  This used to be automatic.
[18:58] <slangasek> davmor2: right, understood
[18:59] <davmor2> s/does/doesn't sorry
[18:59] <Keybuk> slangasek: it doesn't ask for a username yet
[18:59] <Keybuk> right now you get "Password or swipe finger"
[19:00] <slangasek> Keybuk: hrm.  unfortunately there'll be cases where PAM already knows the username anyway, so you don't want to prompt for it unconditionally... otherwise, a username prompt would let you handily bypass prompting for passwords that don't belong to it
[19:02] <davmor2> wine is a bit bust seg faulting
[19:02] <cjwatson> evand,davmor2: weird, I'm sure it selected UK for me
[19:03] <evand> cjwatson: I'd be very surprised if it did.
[19:03] <evand> I can't for the life of me figure out why this is happening though.  There haven't been any console-setup changes between the version that worked and this one.
[19:03] <davmor2> cjwatson: It's happened on every live install so far 64 bit and 32 bit on Ubuntu and Kubuntu
[19:04] <cjwatson> oh, I might have forced it in the bootloader
[19:04] <cjwatson> my suspicion would be timezone widget changes
[19:04] <Keybuk> slangasek: this is all, it has to be said, "future versions"
[19:04] <evand> cjwatson: I thought so too at first, but it's basically the same code for that.
[19:04] <slangasek> Keybuk: yes :)
[19:04] <davmor2> cjwatson: Kubuntu's has though has it?
[19:04] <evand> davmor2: no, kubuntu uses its own timezone widget
[19:05] <Keybuk> slangasek: they want to get to the point where you can walk up to a computer and just swipe your finger
[19:05] <davmor2> same error on kubuntu it's where I first noticed it
[19:05] <Keybuk> it'll do a user switch and login there and then
[19:05] <slangasek> Keybuk: aieee
[19:08] <davmor2> evand: Now you see that makes a lot more sense :)
[19:11] <davmor2> sorry back to my question earlier.  Gnome-vfs-obexftp got upgraded to main the day after the whole backend got switched to gvfs/gio which means that the bluetooth applet does next to nothing again is this likely to get fixed before hardy is released or is it more likely to be a Intrepid.
[19:12] <davmor2> slangasek: Xubuntu isn't booting I'll try a reburn but it could be dead :(
[19:12] <slangasek> davmor2: mm, at what point does it fail to boot?
[19:13] <davmor2> pass but I did the check disk for errors and it's shown one up hence the reburn.
[19:14] <dholbach> Library Packagin Session in #ubuntu-classroom
[19:26] <slangasek> oh bother, how did I manage to get my UI in Spanish on my last login
[19:27] <dholbach> slangasek: it must have been the end of a very long night :)
[19:29] <slangasek> dholbach: it doesn't bother me too much, except when I'm trying to navigate mutt and all the keybindings are changed
[19:29] <dholbach> hehehe, I can imagine :)
[19:30] <dholbach> or should I say jéjéjé (in a good impersonification of pedro_)
[19:31]  * pedro_ hugs dholbach
[19:31] <slangasek> :-)
[19:31] <pedro_> it should be the default language ;-)
[19:31]  * dholbach hugs pedro_ back
[19:31] <dholbach> sure... like seb128 would vote for french :)
[19:31] <pedro_> why? he's german
[19:31] <slangasek> haha
[19:32] <dholbach> Alsatian :)
[19:32] <dholbach> anyway... I call it a day - see you on monday and have a great weekend :)
[19:32] <ogra_cmpc> ciao dholbach
[19:32] <dholbach> bye ogra
[19:33] <dholbach> and give sistpoty some love in  #ubuntu-classroom !
[19:37] <slangasek> davmor2: any luck with the xubuntu reburn?
[19:37] <davmor2> slangasek: trying it now
[19:41] <ogra_cmpc> cjwatson, will you kill me if i add a edubuntu-desktop.postinst to -meta ? i think it needs a notification to re-login now that its always installed as addon
[19:42] <Kuni> sorry to bring this here, but over at +1 we were wondering what the status is on alpha 5. Could someone clarify please?
[19:42] <ogra_cmpc> (the artwork changes wont take effect without logging out, apps appear in the menu indeed)
[19:45] <slangasek> Kuni: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all shows the testing status of the images that are being prepared for the release; when we have adequate test coverage to ensure we're not releasing broken images, we release
[19:45] <Kuni> sweet, thanks
[19:46] <davmor2> slangasek: still issues I'm just check all the md5sums so far they check out I'm just checking the iso against the cd now
[19:47] <slangasek> ok
[19:47] <slangasek> which image is this, precisely?
[19:48] <davmor2> slangasek: cced43ba9e39f1853c06f890ebf4212e *hardy-desktop-amd64.iso
[19:52] <davmor2> slangasek: I think it's the re-writeable disc at fault
[19:53] <davmor2> so I'm going to write it to a standard disc
[19:56] <slangasek> ok
[19:58] <davmor2> slangasek: that's craked it :)
[20:05] <davmor2> slangasek: printing from FF3B3 doesn't work :(
[20:08] <slangasek> davmor2: crash in texttops, or are you seeing a different problem than the one I just tested?
[20:09]  * Keybuk wonders what tracker is indexing
[20:10] <davmor2> slangasek: stgraber: http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/f6308f46f that's stgrabers cups issue
[20:11] <slangasek> ok, so it seems to be a cups problem of some sort?
[20:11] <slangasek> oh, 'empyt print file', hmm
[20:11] <davmor2> it only happens with FF3
[20:12] <slangasek> ok, is this being filed as a bug report?
[20:13] <davmor2> doing it now
[20:15] <slangasek> ok, please give me the bug # when you have it for release-noting
[20:18] <Keybuk> errr...
[20:18] <Keybuk> what the fuck is ~/xmp ?
[20:19] <Keybuk> actually ~/xmp:-
[20:19] <ogra_cmpc> lsof ?
[20:19] <davmor2> slangasek: how permanent is the pastebin can I link to it or should I copy the info across to the bug report?
[20:19] <Keybuk> "convert" apparently
[20:20] <slangasek> davmor2: copy it across
[20:20] <davmor2> np
[20:20] <ogra_cmpc> Keybuk, a freaked out nautilus thumbnailer ?
[20:21] <davmor2> slangasek: bug 194486
[20:21] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 194486 in firefox-3.0 "printing in Firefox 3 Beta 3 is broken" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194486
[20:22] <Keybuk> I have a feeling it might be a freaked out tracker indexer
[20:22] <Keybuk> something like
[20:22] <slangasek> davmor2: thanks
[20:22] <ogra_cmpc> uding convert ?
[20:22] <Keybuk> tracker sees file, runs convert, convert freaks and dumps to ~/xmp:-, tracker sees file change, runs convert, convert freaks...
[20:22] <ogra_cmpc> *using
[20:23] <Keybuk> it is tracker too
[20:23] <Keybuk> trackerd
[20:23] <ogra_cmpc> ah
[20:23] <davmor2> slangasek: Xubuntu is downloading the language packs in ubiquity and taking forever over it.
[20:23] <Keybuk>  \_ tracker-extract /home/scott/xmp:- image/gif
[20:23] <ogra_cmpc> i thought that was from imagemagic
[20:23] <Keybuk>      \_ convert /home/scott/xmp:- xmp:-
[20:23] <ogra_cmpc> why does tracker convert images ???
[20:23] <Keybuk> JAAAAAAAAAMIE!
[20:24] <ogra_cmpc> indexing must be fun on kwwii's disk with that
[20:24] <LaserJock> ogra: my guess would be to provide the thumbnails in the search results
[20:24] <ogra_cmpc> oh, fun
[20:25] <Keybuk> basically, from what I can see
[20:25] <Keybuk> tracker is chasing its own tail
[20:25] <ogra_cmpc> should we rename it to beagle ?
[20:31] <slangasek> TheMuso, persia: any chance of getting some testing of the ubuntustudio images?
[20:32] <TheMuso> slangasek: Are they ready to test? If so, I can do a bit of testing.
[20:32] <_MMA_> I can also.
[20:33]  * TheMuso syncs.
[20:33] <davmor2> slangasek: I feel sorry for anyone on dial up it going to be another 25 minutes ish for these lang packs
[20:34] <slangasek> TheMuso: yes, though I see I've got the wrong ones linked yet from the tracker, sorry about that
[20:34] <slangasek> TheMuso: please be sure you grab 20080221 rather than 20080220
[20:34] <TheMuso> slangasek: IF ITS THE CURRENT ONE< I'm getting it.
[20:35] <slangasek> hrm, ubuntustudio images are supposed to be DVD-sized then, not CD-sized?
[20:36] <slangasek> they're > 700MB, but not marked as oversize :)
[20:36] <TheMuso> Yes they are DVD size.
[20:36] <slangasek> ok
[20:39] <_MMA_> slangasek: The page itself says DVD. Though, some people still have a hard time burning it in windows. Even trying to use a DVD.
[20:39] <slangasek> heh
[21:15] <davmor2> slangasek: Xubuntu is okay but should it download the language packs?
[21:16] <TheMuso> Hrm. I pulled the -es langpack from our seeds yesterday, yet they are still showing up in our CD report as uninstallable.
[21:16] <TheMuso> slangasek: Are the -es issues supposed to be fixed in the archive now?
[21:17] <slangasek> TheMuso: they are now fixed in the archive; I didn't bother rerolling the images for that issue, do you think it's important enough to do so?
[21:17] <slangasek> davmor2: if you chose a language that requires downloading them from elsewhere, I imagine so?
[21:17] <TheMuso> luisbg: Do you want -es on the latest alpha?
[21:18] <TheMuso> slangasek: I don' but others on our team, for example luisbg might.
[21:18] <davmor2> slangasek: I choose english?
[21:18] <slangasek> davmor2: well, right :)
[21:19] <davmor2> slangasek: I think though that it pulled down all of the language packs considering it took 25 minutes on a 20 meg connection
[21:19] <luisbg> I'm spanish as a lot of this planet
[21:19] <luisbg> it's the 3rd biggest language AFAIR
[21:19] <slangasek> davmor2: er, odd, ok
[21:19] <luisbg> I don't mind not having it in alpha
[21:19] <luisbg> but having it soon is a MUST
[21:19] <davmor2> slangasek: other than that It's okay
[21:19] <_MMA_> TheMuso: slangasek: Well I'd like to think more -es users were testing but I think its ok to go ahead as is.
[21:20] <TheMuso> _MMA_: same
[21:20] <luisbg> There is a huge test base in Spain and spanish speaking countries
[21:21] <luisbg> GNU/Linex, Guadalinex, Bardinux, are a few of Ubuntu Derivatives made by spanish governments
[21:21] <luisbg> they hire companies to make local themed or local purpose derivatives
[21:21] <slangasek> if you think not having all of the -es langpack packages being installable from the disk will break the ability to get good feedback, I'm happy to reroll
[21:21] <_MMA_> luisbg: I'd like to hear from them about Ubuntu Studio then. :P FOr now, I think its fine.
[21:22] <slangasek> otherwise, none of the images have been respun for this particular issue, and I think the fallback is just that it has to go to the network to grab the ispanish package...
[21:22] <luisbg> slangasek, in a test build with possible installation from network
[21:22] <luisbg> it's ok
[21:23] <TheMuso> Gah still syncing  here.
[21:25] <luisbg> brb
[21:29] <zdzichuBG> tjaalton: xf86-video-intel-2.2.1
[21:30] <zdzichuBG> tjaalton: was released, with fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/178505 ;  could you please package it?
[21:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 178505 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "TV-out missing from xrandr output on Thinkpad z61t with Intel" [Medium,Confirmed]
[21:35] <cjwatson> ogra_cmpc: I don't mind, but it sounds like maybe it would be more appropriate in the artwork package
[21:46] <tjaalton> zdzichuBG: next week, unless someone beats me to it
[21:47] <zdzichuBG> ok, thanks.
[21:48] <ogra_cmpc> cjwatson, hmm, probably, tes
[21:48] <ogra_cmpc> *yes
[22:07] <slangasek> TheMuso: what news on ubuntustudio?
[22:12] <mathiaz> slangasek: have you send an email to test ubuntu-server iso from iso.qa.u.c ?
[22:12] <slangasek> luisbg: la instalación de alpha-5 desktop-amd64 en español rula bien
[22:13] <slangasek> mathiaz: no, I don't typically coordinate ISO testing directly except when we're missing test coverage and I need to chase people down
[22:14] <mathiaz> slangasek: hum.. So how can I be notified that a new ubuntu-server iso is availabe and should be tested ?
[22:14] <davmor2> slangasek: 64 server is tested there's only 32bit left server wise
[22:15] <davmor2> oh and sparc anyone with a spare sparc box ?
[22:15] <slangasek> mathiaz: a) monitor http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all, b) ask stgraber who normally coordinates this, c) lurk on #ubuntu-testing around milestone time?
[22:15] <mathiaz> slangasek: ok. I'll keep that in mind.
[22:15] <davmor2> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/untested
[22:15] <slangasek> mathiaz: I'd be happy to have a better process for notifying testers of new ISOs, that means fewer tests I need to do myself :)
[22:19] <davmor2> slangasek: iirc at wednesday's meet there was talk of automating this process.  Also anyone who has signed up to do tests can get emailed as a reminder that the images are up and need testing (unfortunately this time round stgraber broke it :) )
[22:19] <slangasek> davmor2: heh, that would be a welcome improvement
[22:20] <mathiaz> well - that's what I was waiting for.
[22:20] <davmor2> slangasek: The email thingy has been in the tracker for a while but it needs to be switched on from the profile page.
[22:20] <mathiaz> Usually I start testing the ubuntu-server isos when I receive the email from the iso tracker
[22:21] <davmor2> mathiaz 32bit and sparc need testing.
[22:21] <slangasek> I'm actually already testing 32bit
[22:23] <slangasek> (next wishlist bug: some way to indicate what tests are in progress...)
[22:23] <davmor2> slangasek: on the tracker test in progress
[22:25] <slangasek> huh?
[22:25] <davmor2> slangasek: if you go to the tracker page there is a link for tests in progress
[22:26] <slangasek> davmor2: that doesn't tell me what I want to know
[22:26] <davmor2> Oh right :)
[22:26] <slangasek> "in progress" here only means "some parts have been reported as tested"
[22:27] <davmor2> ah true
[22:27] <slangasek> where I want to know "someone over there has started downloading image $foo, so others shouldn't duplicate that"
[22:29] <TheMuso> slangasek: COnnection kinda choppy here, only just got it synced, but am heading off for the weekend in a bit. _MMA_ is doing a test install/test now.
[22:29] <davmor2> slangasek: mind you it's not too bad to have more than one pair of eyes viewing the image to be fair.
[22:29] <_MMA_> (94% complete)
[22:30] <mathiaz> davmor2: right - but if we could assign the test to different people, we'd get more coverage.
[22:30] <mathiaz> davmor2: but that depends on the test cases.
[22:31] <mathiaz> davmor2: the one for ubuntu-server are well defined and targeted for a different configuration each time.
[22:31] <mathiaz> davmor2: I'm not interested in knowing that three people have sucessfully tested that openssh is working correctly.
[22:31] <mathiaz> davmor2: I'd rather now that openssh, mysql and postfix are all working correctly.
[22:32] <davmor2> true.
[22:33] <mathiaz> but for more generic test, such as boot the livecd and poke around - then having more people doing the same test case is usefull.
[22:35] <slangasek> _MMA_: 94% of the download, or the install?
[22:36] <slangasek> davmor2: it is bad if you only have enough testers to get 1 test each, and they lose time duplicating efforts; and if you have more testers, knowing who's downloading what already helps you still distribute the tests more evenly
[22:36] <_MMA_> slangasek: Rebooting into install now.
[22:36] <slangasek> _MMA_: ok
[22:39] <davmor2> slangasek: mathiaz: both true.  On the tracker though there is a big list of who's meant to test what.  Heno swapped most of my tests around because some area's where covered really well while others sucked.  So as people sign up who is testing what can be monitored.
[22:40] <davmor2> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/subscriptions
[22:40] <slangasek> that would be sufficient if all the people signed up for testing were available 24h a day and were notified of new ISOs in a timely manner :)
[22:41] <slangasek> it doesn't help if you have opportunistic testers and need ad hoc coordination of testing of the untested images
[22:41] <luisbg> slangasek, nice spanish, where did you got that from?
[22:43] <_MMA_> slangasek: I grabbed and installed the 32-bit disk from 20080220. Looks good here.
[22:44] <davmor2> slangasek: I have a small rsync script which used to download 22 images.  However with the edubuntu cd's being all over the place now I need to modify it.  So quite often I test images that aren't tested :)
[22:44]  * _MMA_ wishes he could do a 63-bit one but just cant nuke his main desktop yet.
[22:44] <_MMA_> *64
[22:46] <davmor2> _MMA_:  64bit one what?
[22:46] <_MMA_> Ubuntu Studio
[22:50] <stgraber> A good way to know what needs testing is : http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases
[22:50] <stgraber> So you can make sure every install options of debian-installer or ubiquity have been tested at least once
[22:54] <Amaranth> bryce: did you see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/175774/comments/25 ?
[22:55] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 175774 in dell "[hardy] Enabling "Normal" effects produces badly drawn window shadows." [High,Fix committed]
[22:55] <bryce> Amaranth: hah!  :-)
[23:03] <stgraber> slangasek: Can I remove the two Edubuntu Desktop builds ? (IIRC we don't have Edubuntu Desktop but only the Add-on CD)
[23:10] <slangasek> stgraber: the ones that are disabled?  yes, they can be removed
[23:11] <slangasek> edubuntu desktop exists, but isn't in a state to include in this alpha
[23:15] <stgraber> slangasek: done. I'm now downloading Ubuntu Alternate and will do a LTSP + LVM + encrypted FS and then install the Edubuntu Add-on
[23:16] <slangasek> stgraber: ok, thanks
[23:17] <slangasek> _MMA_: umm... you know 20080220 wasn't current, right?
[23:17] <slangasek> luisbg: many years of practice. :)
[23:18] <luisbg> slangasek, how so?
[23:18] <slangasek> _MMA_: did you really test 20080220, or 20080221 which is current?
[23:18] <_MMA_> Sorry. 21. :P
[23:18] <slangasek> luisbg: I have a degree in Spanish
[23:18] <luisbg> slangasek, nice
[23:19] <slangasek> _MMA_: awesome, I'll go pull the lever then :)
[23:21] <slangasek> stgraber: the edubuntu add-on test is the only one outstanding, then; do you have an idea how long it'll take?
[23:22] <slangasek> mathiaz: what bit of the postgresql install failed for you?
[23:23] <mathiaz> slangasek: postgres doesn't start
[23:23] <slangasek> doh
[23:24] <mathiaz> slangasek: sudo -u postgres psql -l fails with unable to connect to socket
[23:24] <mathiaz> slangasek: alpha4 already had the problem.
[23:24] <mathiaz> slangasek: but I hadn't had time to investigate the problem.
[23:24] <mathiaz> slangasek: I need to file a bug and milestone for beta at least
[23:24] <stgraber> slangasek: ltsp can take a while to install, I would expect a result in 30-40mins
[23:29] <slangasek> mathiaz: right, yes please :)
[23:29] <slangasek> stgraber: ok, thanks
[23:46] <davmor2> slangasek: Does this mean that Alpha 5 is ready for release?
[23:56] <davmor2> Right I'm off Bye


[01:29] <cjwatson> that's not surprising; if you randomly kill debconf, extra questions are the least of your worries
[01:30] <cjwatson> if it's happening about half the time, I'd love it if you could step through the installer until just before the end of the partitioner, then from tty2, 'udpkg -i /cdrom/pool/main/s/strace/strace_*.deb', 'ps ax' to find the main-menu process, and 'strace -f -o /tmp/foo.trace -s 1024 -tt -p <whatever the main-menu pid is>'
[01:31] <cjwatson> ctrl-c that if/after it hangs, 'anna-install openssh-client', and scp the trace out
[01:34] <cjwatson> this is a little reminiscent of http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=100616, but I don't think it's the same thing
[11:38] <jerom1> Hi Colin and all,
[11:38] <jerom1> I would wish to test your friday's patch by adding your modification in the initrd of my netboot. How can i find your fix ?
[01:51] <mark> cjwatson: alright I'll see what I can do
[01:51] <cjwatson> thanks
[01:53] <mark> I guess I could start an openssh server on the machine if I'm doing the install manually step by step anyway
[01:54] <cjwatson> possibly the fewer perturbations the better, though
[01:55] <mark> yes but I don't have physical access to most of our machines
[01:55] <mark> they are thousands of miles away ;)
[02:09] <mark> let me try it rightaway on an idle server in korea
[02:41] <mark> of course it doesn't happen if you WANT it to happen
[02:43] <cjwatson> a watched pot never boils
[02:44] <mark> maybe it doesn't help that the install goes a lot slower now because of a different mirror
[02:44] <cjwatson> that shouldn't make a difference; it downloads everything and then installs it all
[02:45] <mark> you never know
[03:00] <mark> aha
[03:00] <mark> now the install seems stalled on "Installed libisccfg1"
[03:00] <mark> so it's likely not a man-db issue but a debconf one?
[03:05] <cjwatson> could be anything
[03:06] <cjwatson> would need an strace to investigate
[03:07] <mark> trying to get you one now
[03:07] <mark> btw, once I used db_set in a postinst script in one of our own packages
[03:08] <mark> and that made everything stall as well
[03:08] <mark> might be the same thing
[03:08] <mark> but that was very reproducable
[03:11] <cjwatson> probably a different problem, such as causing debconf to exit before the db_set
[03:11] <cjwatson> db_set does work :-)
[03:12] <mark> server-expert installs at 9600bps = no fun :)
[03:27] <mark> ah there is no openssh-server udeb
[03:28] <mark> let's see if I can do without...
[03:41] <cjwatson> is too
[03:41] <cjwatson> but it comes unconfigured so is not really quite what you want
[03:41] <cjwatson> (it's in universe)
[03:55] <mark> I have found another way
[03:55] <mark> I start the strace in the ssh shell using the menu
[03:55] <mark> and have it log to /var/log/stall.trace
[03:55] <mark> then I start the internal debug logs webserver
[03:55] <mark> and go on with the install
[03:57] <mark> ok it seems stalled at "Installed cron"
[03:57] <mark> http://yf1014.yaseo.wikimedia.org/stall.trace
[04:01] <cjwatson> jerom1: 'svn di -r42868:42869 svn://svn.debian.org/svn/d-i/trunk/packages/debian-installer-utils/list-devices', applied to /bin/list-devices. If it breaks, you get to keep both pieces.
[04:01] <jerom1> collin : thanks
[04:01] <mark> 2136  14:56:57.569926 sendto(4, "<15>Nov 27 14:56:57 debconf: <-- 0 OK", 37, MSG_NOSIGNAL, NULL, 0) = 37
[04:01] <mark> 2136  14:56:57.570009 write(5, "0 OK", 4) = 4
[04:01] <mark> 2136  14:56:57.570056 write(5, "\n", 1) = 1
[04:01] <mark> 2136  14:56:57.570102 read(6,
[04:01] <cjwatson> (just the one l)
[04:01] <mark> are the last lines in the trace
[04:01] <cjwatson> that sounds like you're just tracing debconf
[04:02] <mark> isn't the main menu debconf?
[04:02] <cjwatson> but the hang might not be there
[04:02] <cjwatson> you're prejudging the outcome ...
[04:02] <mark> I am not
[04:02] <mark> you asked me to trace the main menu pid :)
[04:02] <cjwatson> with -f
[04:02] <mark> I did
[04:02] <cjwatson> and no, the main menu actually isn't debconf
[04:02] <cjwatson> it's "main-menu"
[04:02] <mark> ok
[04:03] <mark> I will start over
[04:03] <cjwatson> sorry, I thought I'd been clear
[04:03] <mark> maybe I didn't look very well
[04:03] <mark> np
[04:03] <mark> I now know how to do it
[04:03] <cjwatson> looking at the trace anyway, but it looks like it's the other side of the protocol that's hanging
[04:03] <mark> yes
[04:03] <cjwatson> debconf is just waiting for input, which is legitimate and normal
[04:04] <mark> indeed
[04:04] <cjwatson> could conceivably be apt or something at this rate
[04:04] <cjwatson> but we'll see
[04:08] <mark> I should put the strace in the early_command script... easier
[04:19] <mark> oh this is going to be a fun trace
[04:20] <cjwatson> (not likely to be around much for the rest of my afternoon, BTW)
[04:20] <mark> ok
[04:20] <mark> I'll just save it
[04:20] <cjwatson> nnn
[04:20] <cjwatson> (argh, bloody connection)
[04:21] <mark> gee, the installer is doing a lot of forks...
[05:00] <cjwatson> it does that
[05:00] <cjwatson> something to do with largely being written in shell ;-)
[05:01] <cjwatson> Doesn't help performance on hppa any, where fork() is really slow. It's not too bad on the other architectures.
[05:26] <mark> hehe
[05:26] <mark> my strace download is now one hour behind
[05:26] <mark> an hour to just install base ;)
[05:54] <mark> killed for out of memory
[05:55] <cjwatson> d'oh
[05:55] <mark> it was > 4 GB in size ;)
[05:55] <mark> this is not feasible
[05:55] <cjwatson> when did you start the trace?
[05:55] <mark> right before base install
[05:55] <cjwatson> hmm
[05:56] <cjwatson> is it feasible to dump the trace to disk instead of RAM?
[05:56] <mark> hmm
[05:56] <mark> maybe
[05:56] <mark> would have to be another disk than the installer is working on I guess
[05:56] <cjwatson> you'd have to run in expert mode until the end of the partitioner in order to give yourself time to set up the trace before base-installer starts, and then change debconf priority back to high to get into base-installer
[05:57] <cjwatson> no, if you set up the trace after the partitioner has finished working then you can safely write into /target/tmp/
[05:58] <mark> or I have it streamed out over the LAN
[06:09] <mark> I can do it after base-installer I guess, it doesn't happen during bae
[06:09] <mark> base
[06:11] <cjwatson> it doesn't?
[06:11] <cjwatson> oh, Ubuntu doesn't install man-db as part of base
[06:11] <cjwatson> I totally forgot about that ;-)
[06:11] <mark> :)
[06:11] <cjwatson> hi, can you tell I'm the man-db maintainer, a Debian installer developer, and the Ubuntu installer lead? sheesh
[06:11] <mark> yes, clearly :)
[06:12] <cjwatson> yeah, ok, so right before pkgsel would work fine as well
[06:12] <mark> but with many hats things can get intermixed
[06:12] <cjwatson> exactly - Debian installs man-db in base
[06:13] <mark> what does "Build LTSP chroot"?
[06:13] <mark> +do
[06:14] <cjwatson> it's an Edubuntu thing
[06:14] <cjwatson> thin client integration
[06:15] <mark> /dev/sda1                 7.3G    479.8M      6.5G   7% /target
[06:15] <mark> I hope that's gonna be enough :)
[06:15] <cjwatson> if you're installing an LTSP server, it builds a pre-cooked chroot that you can serve out to clients
[06:15] <mark> I see
[06:15] <mark> so I can skip it next time
[06:17] <cjwatson> yeah
[06:17] <mark> ok there we go, I have it log to /target/tmp, and I put a symlink in /var/log/ so it's available over the network
[06:17] <mark> http://yf1014.yaseo.wikimedia.org/stall.trace
[06:17] <mark> gonna start pkgsel now
[06:23] <mark> grr
[06:23] <mark> of course now it went just fine
[06:39] <mark> and again :(
[06:47] <jerom1> bye
[07:11] <mark> can't reproduce it with strace running