[00:13] <ubptgbot> ChocomelUK was added by: ChocomelUK
 https://t.me/joinchat/NSEb8t53XY5mMzk0
 https://t.me/joinchat/NSEb8t53XY5mMzk0
 @Stereofont
 spammer spotted @Flohack
 You another tosser
 @wayneoutthere you awake by chance?
 Done
 thanks 👍
[01:58] <ubptgbot> James was added by: James
 Hi, my camera does not work. The app crashes, with black screen. Help please, I am using xperia xz (halium 7.1).
 [Edit] Hi, my camera does not work. The app crashes, with black screen. Help please, I am using xperia xz.
 Hey whats the new update version 336 consists of in redmi4x
 I have uodated a ota today I want to know changes
 I assume you're on devel? … there's really no official list of knowing the changes … you may check recent commits in the repos though
 Oh ok
 Thankx
[08:04] <ubptgbot> leninpoleon was added by: leninpoleon
 @Aleem [Hi, my camera does not work. The app crashes, with black screen. Help please, I …], That is probably normal for the XZ at the moment. A port in progress? Check the device list
[09:13] <ubptgbot> Robb Stark was added by: Robb Stark
 or maybe its root isn't updated to OTA-16? so it has no QT5.12
 Can anyone tell me about ubport app for next cloud
 Or how do you guys take backup
 there's Ubsync for syncing … then there are other apps for notes, news, etc.
 @akshithsbalan [Can anyone tell me about ubport app for next cloud], Ghostcloud?
 Anyone know if UT works fine on the Google Pixel 3 xl (not 3a xl)
 @PhoenixLandPirate [Ghostcloud?], Your review on it ?
 Ghostcloud is great app for browsing your nextcloud files … you can also upload and download but no syncing
 @akshithsbalan [Your review on it ?], I dont really use nextclouds cloud storage much, so I cant really review it, I use it occasionally, and it works well though!
 @PhoenixLandPirate [I dont really use nextclouds cloud storage much, so I cant really review it, I u …], How do guys take backup
 I use a cable and copy my pictures to my laptop.
[12:05] <ubptgbot> soheil3sot was added by: soheil3sot
 @klaartje_b [I use a cable and copy my pictures to my laptop.], What about files  and all other stuffs
 Pictures are files too, all files can be copied that way.
 What kind of other stuffs are you thinking about?
[13:03] <ubptgbot> Shiv983815 was added by: Shiv983815
 Noob question incoming. … How do i install it on supported Android device ?? … Any guide or video to do so?
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuLFTGkuD68  looks relevant, I have not watched it myself.
 (Photo, 262x187) https://irc.ubports.com/KSTJkOUB.png
 @Shiv983815 Does that help any?
 @klaartje_b [@Shiv983815 Does that help any?], It should.. i will try thanks...
 Maybe check where you are posting pictures of your OTP codes next time @mnuesser1962 :)
[15:07] <ubptgbot> ahmedgharib92 was added by: ahmedgharib92
[15:15] <ubptgbot> peixepalhaco was added by: peixepalhaco
 @klaartje_b [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuLFTGkuD68  looks relevant, I have not watched …], 2018 is ancient history tbh
 @akshithsbalan [How do guys take backup], With the Syncthing app. https://open-store.io/app/syncthing.syncthing
 (Sticker, 512x512) https://irc.ubports.com/SsOGGhZI.webp
 @akshithsbalan [Can anyone tell me about ubport app for next cloud], UBsync works well if you have an armhf device (e.g Nexus 5, OnePlus One) but is not yet available for arm64  except as a beta which does not work for my NextCloud account hosted by OwnCube - so not sure if it will work for you https://open-store.io/app/ubsync
 (Voice, 3s) https://irc.ubports.com/QTnYzVmQ.oga
 @Stereofont [2018 is ancient history tbh], Right, so can you find something more recent?
 the procedure didn't exactly change tho :P
 Unfortunately we haven't recorded anything newer... That would be cool, but I don't think we have the facilities at the moment. There are other videos on YouTube of the installation, but not quite that one.
 That video is the single most-watched video on the channel though.
 😄
 I was looking for my recent message and I found it in a totally unrelated group 😆
 anyone use firefox via libertine? … it opens but tabs crash and useless … installing firefox in the root works fine though … they're the same version from what I see
 wuuuut
 now that's new 🤔
[18:29] <ubptgbot> <Jan Dierickx> @Javacookies [anyone use firefox via libertine? … it opens but tabs crash and useless … installing …], I had that too, but someone posted the correct version here a couple of days ago and now it works.
[18:31] <ubptgbot> <Jan Dierickx> @Javacookies [anyone use firefox via libertine? … it opens but tabs crash and useless … installing …], https://t.me/ubports/336181
 wait is weird to me is that it works in the rootfs
 @Fuseteam [now that's new 🤔], no, I think I was just high 😂
 👀
 @Fuseteam [wait is weird to me is that it works in the rootfs], yeah indeed … but probably something to do with some libertine specific stuffs
 confused noices
 for the one in rootfs, I just edited the desktop file to run it on xmir
 so maybe libertine does more than just run on xmir
 wonder what causes the crash inside libertine
 maybe something's missing in the libertine chrootfs?
 maybe...
 too bad because someone found a way to make it work faster...color is messed up though
 Besides having to use the older 78.7 esr version - another note is that audio for Firefox in Libertine will not work unless pulse audio dependencies are installed in the Libertine container - I just installed the `gtick` app and it pulled in all the needed dependencies.
 @Javacookies [too bad because someone found a way to make it work faster...color is messed up …], eh? faster? on xmir?
 @TotalSonic [Besides having to use the older 78.7 esr version - another note is that audio fo …], audio not working in libertine sounds like it needs a bug report
 Is there a reason some apps are not available for certain devices? … For example UNav is present in the open store on the OnePlus 2 (halium 7 arm64) but neither on the Oneplus3 (halium 7 arm64) nor on the OnePlus 5 (halium 9 arm64)
 @TotalSonic [Besides having to use the older 78.7 esr version - another note is that audio fo …], oh cool … thanks for the tip
 @Fuseteam [audio not working in libertine sounds like it needs a bug report], lol - there are a gazillion bug reports needed for libertine, where to start?  But seems if no one is focused on fixing Libertine for the moment it's kind of moot for the time being
 can we use the banking and financial apps in ubports with anbox?
 @vince1171 [Is there a reason some apps are not available for certain devices? … For example U …], eh? unav is a all package, so its deffo not architecture, all they all post-ota-16?
 [Edit] can we use banking and financial apps in ubports with anbox?
 @TotalSonic [lol - there are a gazillion bug reports needed for libertine, where to start?  B …], well it does need to kept track off :P
 [Edit] can we use banking and financial apps in ubuntu touch with anbox?
 @archi_dagachs [can we use banking and financial apps in ubuntu touch with anbox?], you can try but anbox is experimental pre-alpha atm
 @vince1171 [Is there a reason some apps are not available for certain devices? … For example U …], first is architecture, if the app isn't built for your device's architecture then it won't show but I doubt that's the case with uNav … probably it needs a newer framework that's only available on newer OTA
 @Fuseteam [well it does need to kept track off :P], true!
 @Fuseteam [you can try but anbox is experimental pre-alpha atm], oh, so we need to dual boot
 @archi_dagachs [oh, so we need to dual boot], aka it doesn't work with any apps i tried it with but it does work
 and dual boot is not officially supported
 @Fuseteam [aka it doesn't work with any apps i tried it with but it does work], can we use any virtual machine in ubuntu?
 its a same-ish issue with virtual machines on ubuntu touch
 @TotalSonic [lol - there are a gazillion bug reports needed for libertine, where to start?  B …], I think only wayland can salvage libertine … 20.04 may also help
 or if anbox can run VMOS app, we can use the essential apps in vmos
 tho that's more that nobody has tried machining a virtual machine for android :P
 @Fuseteam [eh? unav is a all package, so its deffo not architecture, all they all post-ota- …], Ota 16 for op2 and 3T … Latest devel image for op5
 @archi_dagachs [or if anbox can run VMOS app, we can use the essential apps in vmos], no idea what VMOS is
 @Fuseteam [no idea what VMOS is], an androud virtual machine for android
 @Fuseteam [no idea what VMOS is], [Edit] an android virtual machine for android
 unluckily, it's closed sourced
 .......sounds like it needs porting to ubuntu tou— dang it
 @Fuseteam [.......sounds like it needs porting to ubuntu tou— dang it], if anbox can run the vmos app.......
 in any case a vm in a container on top of a container doesn't sound like a good idea
 perhaps ask the vmos devs if they want to support ubuntu touch directly
 @Javacookies [I think only wayland can salvage libertine … 20.04 may also help], Yeah, definitely some promise with the coming 20.04 upgrade - but have to say one thing I wish we could see would be integration of some of the work that the Phosh/Pure OS folks did in making some of the desktop apps scale way more nicely on mobile devices
[18:49] <ubptgbot> .   Their phone optimized versions of Firefox and Geary would be really nice to be able to use on UT.
 (Photo, 591x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/Y0tC3J1L.png
 I think you can compile them and use on UT
 @archi_dagachs [<reply to media>], https://t.me/ubports/336850
 @Fuseteam [https://t.me/ubports/336850], okay, the idea seems some fantasy :D
 @TotalSonic [Yeah, definitely some promise with the coming 20.04 upgrade - but have to say on …], i mean if they have a repo we could try and package it for ut
 @Fuseteam [https://t.me/ubports/336850], [Edit] okay, the idea seems like some fantasy :D
 @archi_dagachs [okay, the idea seems like some fantasy :D], https://t.me/ubports/336851 ;)
 @Fuseteam [https://t.me/ubports/336851 ;)], thanks
 (Video, 61s) https://irc.ubports.com/fnrrSnW9.mp4
 gotta admit tis kinda cool
 @Fuseteam [i mean if they have a repo we could try and package it for ut], Geary (email client) is here: … https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/geary
 oh wonderful purism has their own gitlab instance
 It looks neat @archi_dagachs, but it probably won't work in Anbox. You could try it out.
 Run android 12 in anbox with this one weird trick
 @UniversalSuperBox [It looks neat @archi_dagachs, but it probably won't work in Anbox. You could try …], yeah I am pulling that time with paracord to try it, but firstly I need a telephony-working begonia port. Thanks.
 @Fuseteam [oh wonderful purism has their own gitlab instance], kind of goes along with their "not invented here" rebrand everything style.  But then again, the source code is all there, and they have done some good work that is at least a start on these things, that I am hoping could be useful towards porting some of this stuff (althou
[19:00] <ubptgbot> gh I imagine there are some barriers in UT with gtk, xmir and wayland support that have to be surmounted for this too)
 I use Geary in Libertine currently for those moments when I have to get an email sent for my Bluehost account but when Dekko2 is being buggy and refusing to send through it for an unknown reason (even though I've confirmed many times that smtp settings for that account  are correct).  But the Geary interface on a phone is definitely se
[19:02] <ubptgbot> riously clunky.  From the screenshots I've seen it seems the Purism version fixes a lot of that.
 @TotalSonic [kind of goes along with their "not invented here" rebrand everything style.  But …], well kinda but kinda not, you do have more control with your own gitlab instance, debian and kde also have their own gitlab instance :P
 but i get you sentiment hehe
 [Edit] but i get your sentiment hehe
 @Fuseteam [well kinda but kinda not, you do have more control with your own gitlab instance …], oh, I agree with you. Nothing wrong with running ones own instance at all.
 @TotalSonic [kind of goes along with their "not invented here" rebrand everything style.  But …], they were using phabricator before, so it's not like switching to a self-run gitlab was unexpected, if they chose to move to gitlab. i don't think it's so much an "nih" thing in that case though
 @dohbee [they were using phabricator before, so it's not like switching to a self-run git …], agreed.  It does go along with having everything "in house" though.
 @TotalSonic [agreed.  It does go along with having everything "in house" though.], the thing about decentralized services is that you need people to actually be running them; they are trying to make some additional money on services, so it makes sense for them to use mastodon/matrix/etc… to build a branded service suite on.
[20:16] <ubptgbot> arminhere was added by: arminhere
 yeah, I had just gotten really cynical about Purism after the Librem 5 rollout fiasco, but there is nothing wrong about running ones own git or Mastodon instance, and I do appreciate the work towards mobile device FOSS regardless.
 ... anyway - probably a topic best for the Overflow channel - so will stop commenting on it now.
 [Edit] yeah, I had just gotten really cynical about Purism after the Librem 5 rollout fiasco, but there is nothing wrong about running ones own git or Mastodon instance, and I do appreciate their work towards mobile device FOSS regardless.
[22:55] <ubptgbot> PC0306 was added by: PC0306
 Link for redmi note 7??????
 Ubuntu touch for redmi note 7
 How install without PC, because my Windows not make it, ever error
 Answered in the welcome group
 @TotalSonic [yeah, I had just gotten really cynical about Purism after the Librem 5 rollout f …], Yeah like i said i understand you're sentiment, i'm also salty about how the rollout turned out
[23:59] <ubptgbot> Samkhazi was added by: Samkhazi


[00:02] <osmosis> i downloaded nltk_lite , and python setup.py install  fails with the error "please install the python-tk package".  Why in gods name would I install a gui toolkit package on my head less server ?
[00:52] <rhineheart_m> hello. how to install mod_fastcgi?
[00:53] <AtomicSpark> i have this old netserver, duel pII (unknown speed) 256 pc100 ram 2x 8gb scsi hd. any ideas of something nifty to do with it?
[00:54] <kgoetz> take over the world!
[00:54] <kgoetz> osmosis: because it depends on it.
[00:54] <osmosis> ok
[00:54] <rezman7> pwnd
[00:55] <rezman7> haha, im back
[00:55] <osmosis> well...i realized x11-common  isnt actually that bit.  i thought it was all of xorg
[00:55] <rezman7> im pretty sure my card is friend
[00:55] <rezman7> fried*
[00:55] <kgoetz> osmosis: no, your safe :)
[00:58] <AtomicSpark> i was thinking of just installing a LAMP server on it but i dont really trust it holding anything valuable lol. maybe a caching server of some kind. hmm.
[01:00] <kgoetz> IBM netserver? that would be reliable as the earth
[01:01] <AtomicSpark> kgoetz: maybe. i just don't trust these drive lasting. i mean they're used and old. ha.
[01:02] <AtomicSpark> i got it for 8 dollars :D
[01:03] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: you'd be supprised. its all server grade gear, so expect it to outlast your new shiny desktop
[01:04] <AtomicSpark> kgoetz: heh. but anyways, its not enough space to store files. what else could i do with it? dns/website caching usually only helps on large networks.
[01:04] <AtomicSpark> I could set it up to randomly portscan ip addresses. ha.
[01:05] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: WTF do you want to store in your website?
[01:05] <kgoetz> 16 gig is massive
[01:05] <AtomicSpark> kgoetz: i ment it was small to store files
[01:05] <AtomicSpark> like file sharing. :P
[01:06] <kgoetz> i still maintain its massive :)
[01:06] <AtomicSpark> yeah. a raid 5 with 6 x 80GB harddrive is massive. lol.
[01:08] <AtomicSpark> wish it had all the parts. its missing almost every fan. :'(
[01:09] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: i could potentially be imprssed if i wasnt sitting next to 50TB of raid :p
[01:09] <AtomicSpark> heh.
[01:09] <AtomicSpark> got LVM on it?
[01:10] <kgoetz> nah, a proprietary filesystem
[01:11] <AtomicSpark> i see LVM being nice even if you didn't add harddrives, it would be easy to re-size partitions.
[01:12] <kgoetz> as long as its on a healing raid its ok
[01:12] <AtomicSpark> depending if the alt-cd for hardy works, i'll put encrypted LVM on my laptop.
[01:29] <rhineheart_m> can you recommend DMZ setting to ubuntu box?
[01:39] <sommer> nealmcb: ubuntu-vm-builder is used to create jeos correct?
[01:41] <sommer> or anyone who may know
[01:43] <rhineheart_m> sommer: can you recommend DMZ?
[01:43] <sommer> uh... as in a firewall?
[01:44] <sommer> are you asking for the best way to deploy a production Ubuntu server?
[01:44] <rhineheart_m> internet>>modem>>firewall>>DMZ
[01:44] <rhineheart_m> yeah..
[01:44] <sommer> I guess it depends on what services you plan on running
[01:44] <sommer> and which clients need access to them
[01:45] <rhineheart_m> I will run email DNS and website services
[01:45] <sommer> will it be accessed from the internet?
[01:45] <rhineheart_m> yeah
[01:45] <sommer> or just by internal clients?
[01:46] <rhineheart_m> accessible from the internet
[01:46] <sommer> in that case I'd look at dedicated firewall hardware
[01:46] <sommer> cisco pix, sonicwall, etc
[01:46] <puff> sommer: Or run a firewall distro of linux.
[01:46] <sommer> sure that too
[01:47] <sommer> but I'd recommend running that on different hardware than your server :-)
[01:47] <puff> Yeah.
[01:47] <puff> rhineheart_m:  As I said earlier, my comments were assuming you are running a separate firewall between your DMZ server and the public internet, and between your DMZ server and the private internet.
[01:47] <rhineheart_m> I have firewall by cisco..
[01:48] <faulkes-> the dmz usually sits between two firewalls fw->dmz->fw
[01:49] <rhineheart_m> can Linksys do that? I have wrt54g
[01:50] <AtomicSpark> lawl spam
[01:50] <nxvl_work> faulkes-: or in a firewall with 3 network cards
[01:50] <nxvl_work> (one for internet, other for DMZ and the 3rth for LAN)
[01:50] <AtomicSpark> dmz is usually pointed to a server you want FULL ACCESS publicly. webserver etc. no secure info should be on it.
[01:51] <AtomicSpark> if you need dmz to open ports, you should rather just forward the ports you want instead of opening it wide open.
[01:52] <rhineheart_m> Thanks AtomicSpark for that.  But can the internet break the way firewall has been set by CISCO?
[01:52] <faulkes-> Atomic: not neccesarily, take in point a java app server, where requests may all come into port 80 but it has tons of other ports it uses, like 8080
[01:52] <AtomicSpark> no. infact if you have nothing forwarded on your router, your network is pretty save. nat hides all internal stuff :P
[01:53] <AtomicSpark> faulkes-: those are ports set up by outgoing connections. dont have to worry about those.
[01:53] <faulkes-> I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that ;)
[01:54] <nxvl_work> faulkes-: it depend on the net and the services you are running
[01:54] <faulkes-> nxvl: correct
[01:54] <nxvl_work> there is no recipe for DMZ's, every network is different
[01:54] <faulkes-> and every network is generally different, with different requirements
[01:54] <faulkes-> heh
[01:54] <AtomicSpark> yes!
[01:54] <nxvl_work> :D
[01:54]  * nxvl_work HUGS faulkes-
[01:54] <rhineheart_m> In my case.. I disabled Filter Internet NAT Redirection since If it enabled.. I can not access the box in the inside...
[01:54] <AtomicSpark> maybe instead of asking how to enable dmz, tell us what you are trying to set up.
[01:55] <AtomicSpark> ssh from internet?
[01:55] <nxvl_work> rhineheart_m: if we don't know your network, what it runs, and what you want we can't say you how to do things
[01:55] <rhineheart_m> puff: I do ssh from the internet..
[01:56] <nxvl_work> rhineheart_m: try to ask more specific questions
[01:56] <rhineheart_m> nxvl_work: Again I said, I want to run website (80), ssh, email services...and I guess DNS too
[01:57] <nxvl_work> that still says nothing to me :D
[01:57] <AtomicSpark> ah. are you running this from a linux machine?
[01:57] <nxvl_work> you are going to use a 3 network firewall or fw->DMZ->fw->LAN
[01:57] <AtomicSpark> i know we're in an ubuntu channel but i want to make sure :P
[01:58] <rhineheart_m> yes. Ubuntu Gutsy Gibson
[01:58] <AtomicSpark> nxvl_work: i still dont see why needs 2 firewalls and a dmz.
[01:58] <nxvl_work> which is your network topography? where is you LAN
[01:58] <nxvl_work> AtomicSpark: it depens on what you want to do
[01:58] <nxvl_work> AtomicSpark: let me find the graphics who expain it
[01:59] <rhineheart_m> Internet>>modem (bridge mode)>>router>>LAN
[01:59] <AtomicSpark> nxvl_work: i'm getting a lan degree i know what you're talking about lol. i would keep it simple for him. just have him forward the ports from his router to the server.
[02:00] <nxvl_work> AtomicSpark: i also prefer that option -> http://www.grassouille.org/docs/graphics/dmz.png
[02:00] <AtomicSpark> he has a wrt54g.. can't be running anything too large lol. he'll max out his connections.
[02:00] <nxvl_work> AtomicSpark: http://techrepublic.com.com/i/tr/cms/contentPics/5756029-DMZ-overview-A.gif <- that one
[02:00] <AtomicSpark> oh i see what you are saying. interesting.
[02:01] <rhineheart_m> http://www.grassouille.org/docs/graphics/dmz.png <<< is a good one..
[02:01] <AtomicSpark> the first link shows using dmz to the server instead of port forwarding. i would just use port forwarding so you know you are only letting in what you want.
[02:01] <AtomicSpark> the 2nd link is more enterprise class stuff. :P
[02:02] <AtomicSpark> but yeah portforwarding vs dmz. just depends if you have problems.
[02:02] <nxvl_work> one time i deploy 3 firewalls for a client with 2 DMZ
[02:02] <rhineheart_m> AtomicSpark: yeah I got your point here.. but by default all ports are blocked in gutsy right?
[02:02] <AtomicSpark> i would start with portfowarding 80, 22, whatever you need. if that doesnt work, just dmz.
[02:02] <AtomicSpark> by default there is no firewall set up.
[02:02] <nxvl_work> it was inet -> fw1 -> fw2 -> fw3 -> LAN, and a DMZ attached to fw's 1 and 2
[02:02] <AtomicSpark> infact i don't even think it has a firewall till hardy.
[02:03] <nxvl_work> it was crazy paranoid stuff
[02:03] <AtomicSpark> nxvl_work: ha. someone would just DoS him instead of try to get in. :P
[02:03] <nxvl_work> rhineheart_m: i haven't see any default firewall installed on any ubuntu box
[02:04] <AtomicSpark> there is no firewall in ubuntu. not till hardy and thats very simple. also disabled by default.
[02:04] <rhineheart_m> really? that's the way information displayed in the ubuntu website
[02:04] <AtomicSpark> link?
[02:05] <AtomicSpark> "The Ubuntu Server has no open ports after the installation and contains only the essential software needed to build a secure server"
[02:05] <rhineheart_m> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition
[02:05] <rhineheart_m> "A key lesson from its Debian heritage is that of security by default. The Ubuntu Server has no open ports after the installation and contains only the essential software needed to build a secure server."
[02:06] <AtomicSpark> well thats because a "default install" has no LAMP installed. no apache, mysql, etc. :P
[02:06] <AtomicSpark> but hmm. thats interesting. i never had to open ports. let me check.
[02:06] <pwnguin> i dont quite get the point of a firewall
[02:06] <nxvl_work> rhineheart_m: it has no open ports because it has no services running :D
[02:07] <AtomicSpark> yeah. i'm thinking thats what it means.
[02:07] <nxvl_work> :D
[02:07] <pwnguin> if you have an open port, wouldn't you want it publicly accessible?
[02:07] <rhineheart_m> pwnguin: just like if you restrict people from entering your house.. you need to build a gate with a lock
[02:07] <nxvl_work> pwnguin: not always
[02:07] <nxvl_work> pwnguin: i always run mysql server listening only localhost
[02:07] <AtomicSpark> pwnguin: most firewalls are used to block the port from outside your router or select which ips can or cant see it.
[02:08] <nxvl_work> AtomicSpark: but that's a separate firewall
[02:08] <AtomicSpark> but if you dont portforward or dmz, most people dont need a firewall. in that case a firewall would just actively monitor traffic. see the bad things.
[02:08] <pwnguin> i wouldn't mind a gui config tool to set up my ath0 as an AP though ;)
[02:09] <pwnguin> speaking of crazy networking
[02:09] <pwnguin> anyone have a guide for myrinet on ubuntu?
[02:09] <faulkes-> Atomic: well, thats more IDS than firewall
[02:09] <rhineheart_m> yeah.. I agree with that. unless it's a standalone computer.
[02:09] <AtomicSpark> yeah but firewall is thrown around so much. :P
[02:09]  * faulkes- throws a firewall at Atomic
[02:10] <nxvl_work> pwnguin: i have do it a looooong ago i don't really remember how i did it
[02:10] <rhineheart_m> this is my concept... internet>>firewall>>single PC.. can't see a point..
[02:10] <nxvl_work> pwnguin: but i remember it wasn't hard
[02:10] <AtomicSpark> rhineheart_m: internet >> router >> PC, profit!
[02:10] <pwnguin> nxvl_work: i tried a guide on the wiki, but i got some errors that might mean the hardware / driver doesn't support it
[02:11] <pwnguin> or did you mean myrinet?
[02:11] <rhineheart_m> sorry.. what I meant.... internet>>>firewall>>>LAN>>>mutiple PCs
[02:11] <nxvl_work> s/LAN/switch
[02:11] <AtomicSpark> lan as in... a switch?
[02:12] <rhineheart_m> yeah.. switch.. sorry.. it was vague
[02:12] <AtomicSpark> hmm. well in your use case i dont think you need a dedicated hardware firewall.
[02:12] <AtomicSpark> but i guess it's up to you.
[02:13] <rhineheart_m> yeah.. but my router has firewall in it..
[02:13] <AtomicSpark> most people dont buy one unless they're buying other nice eqipment too. hp switches, enterpise routers, etc.
[02:13] <AtomicSpark> well. kindof. its mostly just nat protecting you.
[02:13] <AtomicSpark> home "routers" have a router, switch, dhcp, dns, firewall, etc all built in.
[02:13] <AtomicSpark> but each one is very limited.
[02:14] <AtomicSpark> you should of gotten the wrt54gl so we could make you put linux on it :D
[02:14] <pwnguin> it comes with linux on it :P
[02:15] <rhineheart_m> I see.. but I can't get that version here..
[02:15] <AtomicSpark> you use their firmware or third party? the newer g's you cant flash.
[02:15] <rhineheart_m> wrt54gl...
[02:15] <faulkes-> wait, did you just say "nice equipment" and "hp switches"?
[02:15]  * faulkes- runs
[02:15] <AtomicSpark> haha.  don't like procurves?
[02:15] <pwnguin> the L in gl stands for linux :P
[02:15] <rhineheart_m> yeah.. its version 7 so m sure I can't flash it with linux firmware
[02:15]  * faulkes- loves his cisco gear
[02:16] <AtomicSpark> oh boy. fan boy.
[02:16] <AtomicSpark> look out.
[02:16] <kgoetz> no joke.
[02:16] <faulkes-> nah, I don't have a choice in that area
[02:16] <kgoetz> just get a managed hub :p
[02:16] <faulkes-> I just what I'm given
[02:16] <AtomicSpark> ...
[02:16] <AtomicSpark> did you just say hub?
[02:16] <faulkes-> just use
[02:16] <faulkes-> a managed one at that
[02:17] <AtomicSpark> no smart person would ever buy a hub. the only reason you use a hub is to "hub out" so you can find network problems.
[02:17] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: yeah. i have a pile of them
[02:17] <faulkes-> does that come with a sherpa to hookup all your bnc connectors?
[02:17] <AtomicSpark> you ment managed switches.
[02:17] <AtomicSpark> :P
[02:17] <rhineheart_m> but what's the risk if Filter Internet NAT Redirection  is enabled?
[02:17]  * faulkes- runs
[02:17] <AtomicSpark> i dont even know what that means.
[02:17]  * AtomicSpark checks my router.
[02:18] <kgoetz> no, i meant managed hubs
[02:18] <faulkes-> rhinheart: without understanding what the vendor means by "Filter Internet NAT Redirection" it's hard to say
[02:18] <kgoetz> and the only bnc is the backhaul
[02:18] <pwnguin> hubs have their users
[02:18] <pwnguin> uses
[02:18] <pwnguin> cheap broadcast!
[02:18] <AtomicSpark> yeah. for hubbing out. lol.
[02:19]  * faulkes- unterminates kgoetz
[02:19] <AtomicSpark> wait
[02:19] <AtomicSpark> i think that means nat loopback?
[02:19] <AtomicSpark> you want that.
[02:19] <rhineheart_m> This feature uses Port Forwarding to prevent access to local servers from your local networked computers. <<got from their documentation..
[02:19] <AtomicSpark> ugh.. if its nat loopback, you want that.
[02:19] <AtomicSpark> i always connect to my server using the public ip, even if i am on the inside.
[02:20] <AtomicSpark> lets you know your outside connection still works lol.
[02:20] <rhineheart_m> okay. so I will need that one..
[02:20] <pwnguin> i just use hostnames
[02:20] <pwnguin> ssh tomato
[02:20] <pwnguin> etc
[02:20] <AtomicSpark> i googled it.
[02:20] <AtomicSpark> it said :  If you turn this off, it will allow you to access the server on your
[02:20] <AtomicSpark> local network using the Outside (Internet) IP address.
[02:20] <AtomicSpark> If you turn it on, it will block access to the server using the Outside
[02:20] <AtomicSpark> IP, but still allow by using the Internal (LAN) IP.
[02:21] <rhineheart_m> but won't it compromised the files  and printers sharing in  a windows environment?
[02:21] <AtomicSpark> pwnguin: you use tomato firmware?
[02:21] <pwnguin> AtomicSpark: yea
[02:21] <pwnguin> AtomicSpark: it has its moments
[02:21] <AtomicSpark> good man. tomato rocks hard!
[02:22] <pwnguin> the pppoe stuff is shaky
[02:22] <pwnguin> sometimes it loses the password
[02:22] <AtomicSpark> lol. havent had that problem.
[02:22] <pwnguin> lemme tell you. that's fun when nobody is still around in the apartment when it was set
[02:22] <AtomicSpark> have you tried updating? there has been new versions lately.
[02:22] <rhineheart_m> Yeah...  I have that too.. PPPOE... my dialer was set in the router..
[02:22] <pwnguin> yea,
[02:23] <pwnguin> its a bit challenging to find a time when nobody's using the net
[02:23] <pwnguin> and im awak
[02:23] <AtomicSpark> it only cuts the internet when you reboot. it would take like 10 secs. :P
[02:24] <rhineheart_m> nope.. it won't. as long as you didn't cut the power source to the modem
[02:24] <pwnguin> well
[02:25] <pwnguin> 10 seconds is ages when your addicted to WoW apparently
[02:25] <AtomicSpark> haha. just do it anyways. screw em.
[02:27] <rhineheart_m> I just wondered why my box can't send and receive emails...from and to the internet..
[02:27] <rhineheart_m> I forwarded already port 25 to the box.. (mmmm....got an idea?)
[02:28] <rhineheart_m> this is the last issue that ubuntu gives me pain..
[02:28] <rhineheart_m> :)
[02:28] <AtomicSpark> you need 25 and 110
[02:28] <rhineheart_m> 110?
[02:28] <AtomicSpark> pop3
[02:29] <AtomicSpark> is it using imap? then you have to use 143 lol.
[02:29] <rhineheart_m> hey.. how can I check if what ports will I need to be opened?
[02:30] <rhineheart_m> ows..he left.
[02:31] <kgoetz> you wont need to open up any ports as a client, only as a server
[02:33] <rhineheart_m> but it can't still receive nor send
[02:34] <kgoetz> what do your error logs say?
[02:34] <kgoetz> and what cant send/recieve?
[02:41] <AtomicSpark> so any other ideas on what to do with a old hp server?
[02:42] <kgoetz> how old?
[02:42] <AtomicSpark> hp netserver. duel pII 256 MB ram
[02:42] <faulkes-> proxy
[02:43] <faulkes-> fileserver if it has enough disk
[02:43] <faulkes-> I have a g4 350mhz / 512 ram acting as my squid proxy
[02:43] <AtomicSpark> ~18 GB
[02:43] <faulkes-> does just dandy
[02:43] <faulkes-> same amount of disk for me
[02:43] <AtomicSpark> what would a proxy do for me? :P
[02:43] <faulkes-> I generally don't keep a large media library though
[02:43] <kgoetz> speed up your connection?
[02:44] <AtomicSpark> how so? i never used one before.
[02:44] <faulkes-> certainly, if you got to alot of specific sites often, it can speed things up
[02:44] <AtomicSpark> oh. like caches things?
[02:44] <faulkes-> caching of images, etc..
[02:44] <AtomicSpark> interesting
[02:44] <pwnguin> man, five minutes is a long time to wait wondering if you survived a remote reboot
[02:44] <AtomicSpark> i have a 10MB connection :P
[02:45] <faulkes-> or, if you are like me and have a 14yr old niece who loves youtube and msn and all that, you can force her through the proxy and limit her bandwidth
[02:45]  * faulkes- whistles innocently
[02:46] <faulkes-> pwnguin: db9 getty to a remote terminal server ;)
[02:46]  * faulkes- loves his 2511's
[02:46] <pwnguin> well, my systems are free
[02:46] <pwnguin> can't complain about that
[02:46] <faulkes-> true that
[02:47] <pwnguin> for i had just about assumed id have to speak with the cluster admin tomorrow
[02:47] <faulkes-> get with the times man, it's an age of immediate gratification!
[02:47] <faulkes-> BOOT NOW!
[02:48] <kgoetz> and finish your fsck in 8 hours :)
[02:48] <pwnguin> hmm
[02:48] <pwnguin> [  195.006711] CFI: Found no "amd76xrom" @fff60000 device at location zero
[02:48] <faulkes-> kgoetz: 8hrs is entirely too long, I'd have finished the bottle of scotch by then
[02:48] <pwnguin> that times a billion
[02:49] <kgoetz> faulkes-: :)
[02:49] <faulkes-> not that my employer would care
[02:50] <pwnguin> now to set up an launcher that connects to these remote screens
[02:50] <faulkes-> "can you admin a box in that state?" ..."yess, sirrrz"
[02:50] <pwnguin> im thinking melon cad
[02:50] <pwnguin> cat
[02:53] <faulkes-> hmmm, maybe I'll play with qemu and 8.04 alpha server tonight
[02:54] <faulkes-> Atomic: also, if you are connecting wirelessly to your router, I've found that by using a local internal lan proxy, my transfer rates go up by about 100k
[02:55] <faulkes-> that might not be an issue for other folks, but hey, I'm not complaining
[03:01] <rhineheart_m> how to completely remove postfix and its configuration files?
[03:03] <kgoetz> --purge remove
[03:04] <rezman7> hello
[03:05] <rhineheart_m> and got this: dpkg - warning: while removing postfix, directory `/var/lib/postfix' not empty so not removed.
[03:05] <rezman7> has anyone ever messed with a counter strike server?
[03:06] <ScottK> rhineheart_m: sudo dpkg -P postfix
[03:06] <ScottK> rhineheart_m: Then manually remove stuff like that that's left behind.
[03:07] <rhineheart_m> how about to completely remove dovecot?
[03:07] <rhineheart_m> I just want to install and configure squirrelmail from scratch
[03:08] <ScottK> Similar procedure.
[03:08] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: removing postfix to work on squirrelmail sounds like a lot of work ;)
[03:10] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: but I don't have choice.. I can't really have it to work
[03:10] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: postfix and squirrelmail (and apache) are seperate problems
[03:12] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: what should be entered in Root and postmaster mail recipient:  ?
[03:12] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: your users login, or your email address
[03:13] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: can't get you..
[03:13] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: in what way?
[03:13] <rhineheart_m> like<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:14] <kgoetz> yeah.
[03:15] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: okay.. I will try...this should be the last try..or else..mmm...don't know If I will configure postfix and its related apps for squirrel
[03:15] <kgoetz> you *dont* need to configure postfix for squirrelmail. its nothing to do with postfix
[03:16] <rhineheart_m> okay..so what I need then?
[03:16] <rhineheart_m> dovecot?
[03:16] <kgoetz> squirrelmail, apache and an imap server
[03:16] <kgoetz> dovecot probably works ( i use courier)
[03:17] <rhineheart_m> okay.. but I guess I still need it for my drupal site...right?
[03:17] <kgoetz> need what for drupal?
[03:17] <rhineheart_m> registration confirmation, lost password...like that
[03:18] <kgoetz> you'll probably need a mailserver of some sort for that (i dont use drupal myself)(
[03:19] <rhineheart_m> but postfix is a mailserver right?
[03:20] <kgoetz> yes.
[03:24] <AtomicSpark> hmm.
[03:24] <AtomicSpark> anyone know of a free ldap service? like a simple replacement for AD/NetWare?
[03:25] <AtomicSpark> just for single log ons.
[03:25] <kgoetz> openldap?
[03:25] <AtomicSpark> yeah. have you used it? i've heard of it. :P
[03:26] <kgoetz> yes, i'm currently trying to make a squirrelmail plugin work with it
[03:27] <AtomicSpark> thats cool. i have a small network at work. didnt need all the overhead of small business server so i switched to linux, but miss single logons. :(
[03:27] <AtomicSpark> ill check out openldap server.
[03:28] <kgoetz> took us a while, but we got an almost-single signon here.
[03:28] <kgoetz> its all against the one database, so i guess its a start
[03:28] <faulkes-> likewise-open + openldap now
[03:28] <AtomicSpark> yeah. basically i want a single place to manage users. then the clients get that info. you know. like how AD and netware work lol.
[03:29] <kgoetz> openldap does it
[03:29] <faulkes-> Atmic: likewise-open + openldap would be the thing
[03:29] <AtomicSpark> good deal.
[03:29] <kgoetz> theres a bunch of directory servers available - fedora directory server is the other free one that springs to mind
[03:29] <kgoetz> faulkes-: which means ?
[03:29] <kgoetz> likewise-open?
[03:30] <faulkes-> likewise-open iirc is the client side single-signon portion
[03:30] <faulkes-> for linux
[03:30] <AtomicSpark> ah. the problem is, i have a mix of linux and windows clients.
[03:30] <faulkes-> which is what openldap is for
[03:30] <faulkes-> one is for sign-on, one is for storing credentials
[03:31] <faulkes-> openldap stores the credentials
[03:31] <kgoetz> never heard of likewise-open before
[03:31] <faulkes-> openldap == active directory
[03:31] <AtomicSpark> hmm.
[03:31] <AtomicSpark> is it all command line?
[03:31] <faulkes-> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/likewise-open.html
[03:32] <AtomicSpark> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html
[03:32] <AtomicSpark> woo
[03:33] <kgoetz> faulkes-: so it only works with AD?
[03:33] <faulkes-> eh? no, of course not
[03:34] <AtomicSpark> will openldap work with fake domains? like domain.local?
[03:34] <faulkes-> not that I know of
[03:34] <faulkes-> Atomic: yes
[03:35] <AtomicSpark> good.
[03:35] <faulkes-> kgoetz: openldap is meant as a replacement of AD, well, to a certain extent
[03:35] <kgoetz> faulkes-: no, its a Directory implimentation.
[03:35] <kgoetz> and it *doesnt* work the same a lot of the time
[03:35] <faulkes-> true
[03:36] <faulkes-> but we're talking sign-on here
[03:36] <faulkes-> if you can sign-on to openldap via windows, signing on to openldap via linux (using likewise) should not be an issue
[03:36] <faulkes-> it may be, I havent tested it, but I am following it to a logical extent
[03:37] <kgoetz> theres a libpam-ldap module (not used it directly, just libpam-radius)
[03:38] <kgoetz> which you can use for auth on ldap (openldap and AD iirc), which is shipped in universe
[03:38] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: you said earlier that you use imap server (courier) for squirrel?
[03:38] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: yes
[03:38] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: okay.. how to install it?
[03:39] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: apt-get install courier-imap
[03:39] <kgoetz> surely you could have worked that out o_0
[03:39] <faulkes-> rhineheart: there is significant documentation avaiable at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers
[03:40] <AtomicSpark> is there any good tools to configure openldap? manually editing the files seems risky. :\ especially if i dont know what i am doing haha.
[03:40] <rhineheart_m> thanks faulkes m into it now..
[03:40] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: install ldapvi and ldap-tools
[03:41] <AtomicSpark> alright ill write that down. i might just use ubuntu on my machine. centos5 seems to not like me.
[03:41] <faulkes-> I really need to start saving and buy a fully loaded dell XPS laptop
[03:42] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: I have it installed already (courier-imap). what's the next? how to configure it to work with squirrel?
[03:42] <AtomicSpark> i have a compaq 6820s. i like it. cant ubergame on it but it works nice.
[03:43] <faulkes-> Atomic: well, part of it would be for gaming, but the other half would be my dev machine, which needs lots of ram/hp and portability
[03:44] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: read the doco in /usr/share/doc/squirrelmail[-doc]/ and /usr/share/doc/courier-imap/ and...
[03:47] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: I can't see any documentation there for courier-imap
[03:47] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: /usr/share/doc/courier-imap
[03:49] <faulkes-> rhine: ls /usr/share/doc/co <tab> and see what it lists
[03:49] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: short version( i'll leave you to find the details in the ubuntu guides): install courier/squirrelmail. configure courier to auth on ldap, configure squirrelmail to auth on courier
[03:49] <kgoetz> i have a number of dirs for `ls /usr/share/doc/courier-*`
[03:51] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: are you trying to tell me that I need LDAP for this purpose?
[03:51] <faulkes-> no, courier/squirrelmail can auth against local pw's iirc
[03:52] <faulkes-> i.e. /etc/passwd
[03:52] <faulkes-> all depends on how you set it up
[03:52] <kgoetz> yes they can
[03:52] <kgoetz> or mysql.
[03:52] <kgoetz>  The available modules you
[03:52] <kgoetz> # can use are: authuserdb authpam authpgsql authldap authmysql authcustom authpipe
[03:53] <kgoetz> so anything you can auth pam against you can auth squirrelmail against
[03:53]  * kgoetz is authing on pam for his courier
[03:56] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: so..what should I do to configure courier to auth on ldap, configure squirrelmail to auth on courier?
[03:57] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: I can't find a documentation on how to configure the two of them
[03:58] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: and I got this error: ERROR: Connection dropped by IMAP server.
[03:58] <faulkes-> "aptitude search courier"
[03:59] <faulkes-> p   courier-doc                                                      - Courier Mail Server - Additional documentation
[03:59] <faulkes-> if the beginning of that like doesn't start with "i"
[03:59] <faulkes-> do "sudo apt-get install courier-doc"
[04:00] <faulkes-> which should provide you with the /usr/share/doc/courier-* docs
[04:00] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: configured courier, restarted it then run /usr/sbin/squirrelmail-configure ?
[04:01] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: That's the problem.. I don't know how to configure courier...
[04:03] <faulkes-> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Courier
[04:03] <pschulz01> kgoetz: I bet you can't get it working.
[04:03] <kgoetz> pschulz01: i can get his mail working or ours...
[04:04] <pschulz01> kgoetz: Don't make me hit you.. 'cause I can.
[04:04] <kgoetz> *grin*
[04:04] <pschulz01> kgoetz: I think we got away with it.
[04:05]  * kgoetz goes back to not working ^H^H working hard
[04:05] <faulkes-> aye
[04:05] <faulkes-> I have a project plan that needs finishing
[04:05]  * pschulz01 looks at mysql and goes *shudder*
[04:06] <faulkes-> heh
[04:06] <pschulz01> faulkes-: Bye
[04:06]  * faulkes- points pschulz01 at mysql-cluster
[04:06]  * kgoetz thinks the aircon needs fixing
[04:06] <pschulz01> . it mught have been the air-conditioning.
[04:12] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: I tried the instructions there.. but I can't login
[04:12] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: I got this: * BYE [ALERT] Fatal error: Maildir: Permission denied
[04:13] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: that error looks fairly self explanitory to me :)
[04:14] <rhineheart_m> kgoetz: that's the error I got..
[04:15] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: does the maildir exist?
[04:16] <kgoetz> !pastebin | rhineheart_m
[04:16] <ubotu> rhineheart_m: pastebin is a service to post multiple-lines texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)
[04:16] <kgoetz> !private message | rhineheart_m
[04:16] <ubotu> rhineheart_m: Please ask your questions in the channel so that other people can also benefit AND help you. Please don't PM a user in the channel without asking first, some find it rude.
[04:18] <AtomicSpark> back on topic on openldap, how would you set up logon scripts. say i wanted all the users home folders on the server when they log in, can i do that? would it be easier to just have the mount a "home" folder?
[04:18] <pschulz01> AtomicSpark: That would be done somewhere in PAM.
[04:19] <pschulz01> AtomicSpark: Then is wouldn;t matter how they authenticated when they logged in.
[04:19] <rhineheart_m> yes I have it there..
[04:20] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: run `apt-cache search libpam` and look at the results, theres lots of cool things you can abuse pam to do
[04:20] <rhineheart_m> this one: /home/webmaster/Maildir
[04:20] <pschulz01> rhineheart_m: Does it have any subdirectories in it?
[04:21] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: does the user 'webmaster' exist? how is email getting pointed to them?
[04:21] <rhineheart_m> pschulz01: yes is has
[04:21] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: pastebin your /etc/aliases file
[04:22] <rhineheart_m> # Added by installer for initial user
[04:22] <rhineheart_m> root:   administrator
[04:22] <kgoetz> rhineheart_m: the *whole* file into a *pastebin*
[04:23] <rhineheart_m> that's the whole file already with cat
[04:23] <pschulz01> rhineheart_m: 'webmaster' != 'administrator'
[04:24] <AtomicSpark> should i install a DNS server? id just be using it for authentication.
[04:24] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: hm?
[04:24] <AtomicSpark> well. it would need it to be on a domain... :P
[04:24] <kgoetz> wah?
[04:25] <pschulz01> AtomicSpark: You shouldn't..  as long as other machines can find your LDAP server you should be fine. ie. you can use IP addresses.
[04:26] <AtomicSpark> how do you configure the clients then?
[04:28] <AtomicSpark> oh hey i found info about likewise-open
[04:30] <AtomicSpark> heh i could always run a SMB server in KVM.
[04:30]  * AtomicSpark hides
[04:31] <pschulz01> AtomicSpark: They access the LDAP server via IP address rather than host.domain
[04:32] <AtomicSpark> interesting. but the windows machines wont beable to join an ip address. :P
[04:32] <AtomicSpark> but a DNS server would be good. just have it forward queries. better then using the router.
[04:32] <AtomicSpark> meh then i should put DHCP on the server too.
[04:34] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: your confusing different sorts of domain
[04:39] <AtomicSpark> maybe so.
[04:39] <AtomicSpark> so i can have windows and linux clients authenticate to the openLDAP server without a DNS server installed?
[04:40] <kgoetz> linux yes, windows .... ##windows :)
[04:40] <AtomicSpark> lol.
[04:42] <AtomicSpark> well my plan is to make a decent replacement for this inventory software we have that we will no longer support. then after thats gone we can make almost a full switch to linux.
[04:43] <AtomicSpark> tis good :D
[04:43] <kgoetz> what sort of inventory? (out of intrest)
[04:44] <AtomicSpark> furniture
[04:44] <kgoetz> *grins*
[04:45] <AtomicSpark> we use this windows ap that runs off of access 97. they want way too much for updates and we only use it for inventory. no sales or whatever.
[04:45] <AtomicSpark> so a simple mysql database with a php frontend should be fine.
[04:45] <kgoetz> sounds like it would be perfect
[04:46] <AtomicSpark> since mysql is open, you can do neat stuff like display pictures on your website of your instock items. :D
[04:47] <kgoetz> AtomicSpark: more importantly, sine its open, the cost of migrating *away* is compartively tiny
[04:47] <AtomicSpark> haha yeah.
[04:48] <AtomicSpark> i cant even export the data from the fake access 97 thing :|
[04:49] <kgoetz> mmm.
[04:49]  * kgoetz is serious about the cost of migrating away btw
[04:50] <AtomicSpark> ha. i wonder if there is any opensource inventory software that is a frontend for mysql or something. :P
[04:50] <AtomicSpark> ill have to research this more
[05:03] <nealmcb> sommer: re: "nealmcb: ubuntu-vm-builder is used to create jeos correct?"  - well, some might get confused, given the jeos "cdimage" which is not made by ubuntu-vm-builder.  I'd say we could fix that by not distributing a jeos cdimage at all, and just distribute some vm images made by ubuntu-vm-builder, and call those jeos's for different purposes (web server, mail server, whaetever).  And I've heard support for that, but not much movement, exce
[05:10] <AtomicSpark> its interesting they have that. probably to support the big vmware boom lately. they should be pushing the KVM package they like so much.
[05:19] <rhineheart_m> I got this error: ERROR: Connection dropped by IMAP server.
[06:42] <justinmiller87> Hello all.
[06:42] <justinmiller87> I was wondering if I could get some assistance on something please.
[06:44] <justinmiller87> I'm attempting to access /var/www through FileZilla on a server I just setup. I am running proftpd, and created a shortcut to /var/www using ln -s. I can see the shortcut in FileZilla, but when I try to go into it I get Failed to retrieve directory listing.
[07:25] <justinmiller87> I got it figured out. I was doing my ln -s shortcut backwards.
[09:57] <puff> justYeah, I hate that.
[09:58] <puff> kgoetz: Yeah.  See thin
[09:58] <puff> Whoops.
[09:58] <puff> kgoetz: Yeah, see http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html
[09:58] <kgoetz> ah, an ESR link. this should be worth reading ;)
[10:00] <puff> And the funny thing is, ESR even makes mistakes.  "...what any non-technical user would do... Print Queue"
[10:00] <puff> ANy non-technical user would say "print what?"
[10:01] <kgoetz> :)
[10:01] <puff> Hee... "If the designers were half-smart about UI issues (like, say, Windows programmers)"
[10:01] <puff> Note the back-handed compliment;  half-smart :-)
[10:04] <kgoetz> fedora core 1. thats goign back a bit
[10:06] <puff> Yeah.
[10:07] <puff> About four years? Five?
[10:07] <puff> Btw, what he's talking about, fundamentally, is usability engineering;  the difference between spiffy popups and wizards and a UI designed for usability.
[10:10] <kgoetz> five sounds right
[10:10] <puff> This specific example also illustrates a principle I like to call "shallow complexity".
[10:11] <puff> In other words, sometimes you're better off just letting people deal with complexity directly, and doing your best to keep that complexity shallow.  Instead, all too often people think they're "fixing" it by spreading it across a dozen popups and wizards.
[10:20] <puff> G'ngiht.
[10:30]  * kgoetz wonders how you configure cups without root :/
[10:30]  * kgoetz says words about ubuntu
[10:45] <MenZa> kgoetz: You can configure cups without root? :P
[10:46] <kgoetz> MenZa: dunno, but you have to be able to configure it somehow
[10:48] <MenZa> Well, there's a web-based thing for it
[10:48] <kgoetz> yep. but you need a login. what that is, i have no idea
[10:49] <Jeeves_> Usually, it is root, with the root password
[10:49] <Jeeves_> But you don't have that under Ubuntu :)
[10:50] <kgoetz> Jeeves_: yes, hence the problem :p
[10:50] <Jeeves_> :P
[10:50] <MenZa> :d
[12:12] <sommer> kgoetz: any user in the lpadmin group can configure cups... at least that's what I've found
[12:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> sommer, using their username/password in the cups auth boxes? *sigh* i just got home :|
[12:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> sommer, i'll try it out though, thanks
[12:25] <sommer> np
[12:30] <\sh> moins
[12:33] <\sh> guys, we need to do something with the mess of tomcat5.5
[12:33] <\sh> it needs a jdk and not a jre...and all packages providing java-virtual-machine, which is a suggests of tomcat5.5, are JREs
[12:36] <Kamping_Kaiser> \sh, hello
[12:37] <\sh> hey Kamping_Kaiser
[12:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> how are you going?
[12:38] <\sh> Kamping_Kaiser: good :) everything is green :)
[12:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> nice :)
[12:47]  * Kamping_Kaiser is finding the beta survey quite grueling
[13:18] <Stonekeeper> hi. Does anyone know if Gutsy/Hardy can support a 4TB partition or is that down to the FS? thanks.
[13:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> its filesystem specific
[13:23] <Stonekeeper> ok thanks. what filesystem would you recommend for that amount of storage?
[13:24] <Stonekeeper> if i was to use say gutsy server.
[13:25] <Kamping_Kaiser> i think ext3 maxes at 4T. i belive the newer filesystems will handle it, but i'm a bit suspicious of them (eg reiser, zfs and all the trendy ones)
[13:27] <Stonekeeper> yes, i am too. Well, I'm getting 8x1TB and am going to mirror them so if i claim some space for swap and OS parition then I'm going to be <4T
[13:30] <Stonekeeper> ok thanks Kamping_Kaiser for your time. I'm happy I can use ext3.
[13:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> Stonekeeper, no problem
[13:33] <Stonekeeper> Kamping_Kaiser: sorry, forgot to ask: I'll be getting 32G Ram too. Will that mean I'm forced to use 64bit?
[13:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> Stonekeeper, yes
[13:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> fark. i just finished the beta survey *heh*. 1 hour.
[13:41] <Stonekeeper> thanks Kamping_Kaiser
[13:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> np
[13:43] <CrummyGummy> Hiya, Anyone using supervise?
[13:43] <CrummyGummy> daemon-tools.
[13:47] <_ruben> i do, but not on ubuntu (yet)
[13:47] <_ruben> and probably wont
[13:51] <CrummyGummy> Any ideas what could be causing this? Does java just react wierdly to signals?
[13:52] <henkjan> CrummyGummy: what do you mean?
[13:53] <CrummyGummy> Erm, maybe the stuff I typed didn't get through...
[13:54] <CrummyGummy> daemontools starts progs with no probs but when I restart/kill my java servers it just spawns another one. I had a similar problem with start-stop-daemon. That was wierdly enough fixed by a reboot.
[13:54] <CrummyGummy>  reboot/unplanned reboot/
[13:55] <henkjan> the purpose of daemontools IS to start a process again if it gets killed right?
[13:57] <CrummyGummy> Yes, and it does that very well. It can also stop progs which I seem to be having a problem with.
[13:57] <henkjan> so, whats the problem?
[13:58] <CrummyGummy> If I use svc -k or svc -t its spawns another instance without shutting down the first one.
[13:58] <henkjan> " when I restart/kill my java servers it just spawns another one." seems right behaviour to me
[13:58] <\sh> soren: pingeling
[13:58] <henkjan> ah, okay
[13:58] <CrummyGummy> Ja, 5,6,7 instances later I have a real problem.
[14:12] <soren> \sh: pong
[14:13] <\sh> soren: tomcat5.5, doko meant you are the right person...
[14:13] <\sh> soren: tomcat5.5 suggests java-virtual-machine , but all packages providing this package are JREs...tomcat but needs a JDK...
[14:14] <\sh> soren: AFAIK we don't have a virtual package name for jdks (at least I didn't find one)...and tomcat is not installable at this moment...
[14:14] <\sh> soren: suggesting a free JDK (icedtea e.g.) doesn't help, because when we do this, we have to disable tomcats security manager (it works only with suns jdk)...
[14:15] <\sh> soren: so, given all this, what should we do to have a clean installable tomcat5.5. package? :)
[14:16] <soren> \sh: Sorry, went away for a few minutes..
[14:17] <soren> \sh: Er... Fix icedtea?
[14:17] <soren> To be honest, though.. I don't really care much about Java.
[14:18] <rhineheart_m> hello! how to remove completely squirrelmail and its configuration?
[14:18] <\sh> soren: well, we should care about installable packages :) I don't know if it's ok to Suggest: icedtea-java7-jdk | sun-java6-jdk (which means suggesting a package from multiverse)
[14:18] <henkjan> rhineheart_m: apt-get remove --purge $packagename
[14:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> you were told that at least twice before
[14:23] <soren> \sh: I'm not sure.
[14:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> faulkes-, sorry about the baby bugfiling DoS in LP ;)
[14:24] <\sh> soren: I'll raise this on u-d ml...I think we need a solution for this, and we should find a consense
[14:25] <henkjan> Kamping_Kaiser: indeed, first asking how to remove postfix, 2nd asking how to remove dovecot
[14:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> night all
[14:38] <sommer> Kamping_Kaiser: later on
[14:39] <nijaba> morning
[14:39] <sommer> hey nijaba
[14:47] <lamont> henkjan: you know, a fresh install will also remove that package for him... :-)
[14:47] <lamont> oh wait.  did I say that out loud?
[14:47] <henkjan> :)
[14:48] <henkjan> maybe a sudo rm -rf /
[14:48] <LupusNoctis> naughty naughty!
[14:55] <faulkes-> morning nijaba
[14:56] <faulkes-> whole bunch of new reports in server-survey
[14:56] <faulkes-> I've commited at least one fix to my branch
[15:18] <rhineheart_m> hello.. can you help me configure postfix?
[15:36] <dantalizing> see this window will work for a bit
[17:07] <mathiaz> nijaba: https://help.launchpad.net/BugTrackerEmailInterface
[17:07] <nijaba> thanks mathiaz
[18:50] <baffle> What is considered "best practice" for allocating storage for virtual machines? Defining LVM logical volumes pr. partition/pr. server or defining one LVM logical volume pr. server wich contains it own set of partitions/pv/vg/lv definitions?
[18:51] <baffle> And; Does KVM and/or XEN support the ability to detect a change in size of the blockdevice? I.e. if I grow a blockdevice at the host OS, can I do a scsi rescan on the guest?
[18:52] <faulkes-> I couldn't answer off-hand, iirc soren is doing most of the work on KVM stuff
[18:54] <baffle> faulkes-: Yes, I've noticed. His last Q&A session sure did answer a lot of questions I had regarding KVM. I guess we're moving away from XEN now.
[18:54] <baffle> I just wish "someone" would write virtio drivers for Windows.
[18:55] <soren> baffle: I'm not sure, to be honest. I don't think it will grow like that.
[18:55] <soren> baffle: You'd need to close the vm and start it again, I think.
[18:55] <soren> "think" being the key word here.
[18:56] <soren> baffle: W.r.t. to best practices, it really depends on what you're doing.
[18:56] <soren> baffle: for various reasons, I do a lot of throw-away vm's, so setting up an lv is a bit pointless.
[18:57] <baffle> soren: I use them mostly for production services.
[18:59] <soren> baffle: Using an lv will give you the best performance.
[18:59] <baffle> soren: Having the ability to do a scsi rescan and detect a larger blockdevice sure would be sweet; I'm a bit suprised that noone upstream (XEN/KVM) has looked into this. :-) At least this is something we do quite often on production servers that are not virtualized.
[19:00] <soren> baffle: I honestly don't know.
[19:01] <baffle> soren: My question was if best practice was using *one* LV (I.e. giving the guest /dev/sda) or multiple LVs (I.e. giving the host /dev/sda1 /dev/sda2 etc).. The latter is what I do for XEN paravirtualized hosts, as it allows the host to easily do offline growing of volumes and filesystems. I think this might be the wrong approach for KVM hosts.
[19:04] <baffle> soren: Is Canonical comitting any resources to do feature developement on upstream libvirt/virt-manager?
[19:04] <AtomicSpark> quick question, where does apache place the default public_html folder?
[19:04] <soren> AtomicSpark: your home directory
[19:05] <soren> baffle: It doesn't place it. You create it.
[19:05] <soren> baffle: Not per se, no.
[19:05] <AtomicSpark> k thanks. i'm in class. showing off my leet linux skillz. ha.
[19:06] <soren> baffle: Whether you should use one or several lv's (or partitions or whatever) is really up to you and your workflow. I don't see much of a difference.
[19:08] <baffle> soren: I guess so. It really boils down to if you want to do storage management on the host or the guest.
[19:09] <soren> baffle: Precisely.
[19:11] <baffle> soren: The servers we will be deploying Hardy on need to be able to have controlled simultaneous access to the shared storage (SAN). I guess CLVM is the (only?) solution for this, but I seem to be unable to find any proper documentation for it? We have a few RHEL clusters, but they seem to be a bit "black box". Are you aware of any Ubuntu installations running CLVM in produciton? Is there any Ubuntu documentation on this?
[19:12] <baffle> soren: (Sorry for the Q&A session, I just happend to have a bunch of questions in my head; Be sure to tell if you're too busy. :-))
[19:17] <soren> baffle: I'm aware of their existence. AFAIK, we don't have any Ubuntu specific docs for it.
[19:20] <baffle> soren: So even if the components are part of main, it's basically just imports from Debian I guess. At least that makes things the same. :-)
[19:30] <soren> baffle: We get a *lot* of stuff from Debian.
[19:30] <soren> baffle: I maintain kvm in Ubuntu myself, though.
[19:31] <soren> baffle: Up until very recently clvm was maintained here, too.
[19:34] <coffeedude> dendrobates: back online now.  You still need me ?
[19:36] <dendrobates> coffeedude: any idea on the release date of 4.0.5?
[19:40] <coffeedude> dendrobates: I can tag a official release on Monday.
[19:40] <dendrobates> coffeedude: thanks
[19:41] <coffeedude> dendrobates: ping me if you don't have someone by 2pm EST.
[19:41] <coffeedude> dendrobates: on Monday that is.,
[21:37] <jetsaredim> i accidentally fat-fingered a chmod command and 777'd / on my server - is there any way to get out of this without reinstalling?
[21:38] <jetsaredim> err chmod -R 777 /
[21:46] <Jeeves_> jetsaredim: Hmm
[21:46] <Jeeves_> I fixed that once using the permissions found on a backup-tape
[21:48]  * jetsaredim doesn't have backup tape :(
[21:49] <Jeeves_> jetsaredim: Than, I guessed you're kinda screwed
[21:49] <Jeeves_> Unless you have another box
[21:49] <Jeeves_> Somewhat the same
[21:57] <jetsaredim> not really
[21:57] <jetsaredim> good thing I setup md on my spare drives to backup files to
[21:57] <jetsaredim> just sucks that I'll have to re-setup django again
[22:04] <jetsaredim> is there an updated alpha4 cd for ubuntu-server?
[22:06] <luca__> chi ha voglia di aiutare un principiante ?
[23:18] <rhineheart_m> hello! what's the best smtp server for ubuntu?
[23:25] <puff> rhineheart_m: There are lots of different opinions out there about that.  Three of the more popular packages are postfix, exim and qmail.
[23:25] <puff> rhineheart_m: I chose postfix, because all of the experts I call for help use postfix.
[23:27] <mathiaz> !postfix | rhineheart_m
[23:27] <ubotu> rhineheart_m: postfix is the default !MTA and !MDA on Ubuntu. For help, read https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Postfix and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PostfixBasicSetupHowto - See also !MailServer
[23:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> ubuntu defaults to postfix (you removed it remember?), debian uses exim
[23:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> and aiui no sane person uses qmail anymore
[23:29] <puff> Kamping_Kaiser: Oh?  What's up with that?  Last thing I heard was that the guy who wrote qmail (wietse?) was a pain to work with, so a signficiant faction of folks didn't want to deal with it.
[23:30] <Kamping_Kaiser> puff, from my reading a default qmail isnt rfc complient, and is a spammers heaven. it needs 3rd party patches "and stuff" before it becomes responsible again (debian had an argument about this recently if your after a quick link)
[23:32] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: I have this strange problem..if I change /etc/postfix/main.cf to  #mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION"  it could receive mails from yahoo. What do you think?
[23:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, i think you havent given us enough details yet
[23:34] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: I am using postfix..Trying to configure squirrelmail to work with postfix. My box has courier-imap installed too..
[23:35] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: my problem? Cannot send emails..but I can receive with /etc/postfix/main.cf configured to to #mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION"
[23:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, and what was it before you commented that lilne?
[23:36] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: my networks mynetworks = <IP_ADDRESS>/8 (I tried adding <IP_ADDRESS>/24 after <IP_ADDRESS>/8 but doesn't change.
[23:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, did you change the #mailbox_command line in any way?
[23:39] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: I changed it with # so that my squirrelmail could receive mails
[23:39] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: the complete line-- #mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION"
[23:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, you want to set `home_mailbox = Maildir/`
[23:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'm guessing
[23:43] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: this is the line: home_mailbox = Maildir/
[23:44] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: but still it can't send mails..
[23:44] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, you probably havent configured it correctly. check your mail logs for errors
[23:45]  * Kamping_Kaiser thinks 'deja vu'
[23:51] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: every time I send message this will happen: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
[23:51] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: let me check the logs... a minute..
[23:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, pastebin the last 10 lines of your mail.error and mail.log
[23:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, *pastebin*
[23:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, *do* *not* *message* *me*
[23:54] <rhineheart_m> I forgot the link to pastebin
[23:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> then ask for it
[23:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> ubotu, pastebin | rhineheart_m
[23:55] <ubotu> rhineheart_m: pastebin is a service to post multiple-lines texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)
[23:55] <rhineheart_m> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/57773/
[23:56] <Kamping_Kaiser> and becaues you seem to have forgotten:
[23:56] <Kamping_Kaiser> !private message | rhineheart_m
[23:56] <ubotu> rhineheart_m: Please ask your questions in the channel so that other people can also benefit AND help you. Please don't PM a user in the channel without asking first, some find it rude.
[23:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> rhineheart_m, to=<webmaster@***@info>, two @ in an email address?
[23:59] <rhineheart_m> Kamping_Kaiser: sorry..typo error.. this is the right one there.. http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/57775/


[00:20]  * ToyKeeper wonders if there is a way to make sftp://host/path resolve to host:path instead of host:/path
[00:20] <ToyKeeper> (so, a single slash after host would be relative to $HOME, and two slashes relative to root)
[00:35] <abentley> ToyKeeper: You can get that effect with sftp://~/
[00:35] <abentley> i.e. sftp://host/~/
[00:36] <ToyKeeper> Ah, I only tried that with bzr+ssh, which didn't work.
[00:37] <ToyKeeper> As sftp, it's fine.  I wonder if the other host is just too old to support that syntax.
[00:38] <lifeless> bzr+ssh doesn't support ~ yet
[00:40] <poolie> hello all
[00:41] <lifeless> hi
[00:42] <ToyKeeper> I don't recall the last time I wanted to specify a repo path from root instead of ~ ...  good to know it's not there yet.  :)
[00:59] <spiv> Good morning.
[00:59] <onox> good night
[01:01] <mwhudson> hello spiv
[01:06] <awmcclain> "bzr: ERROR: Transport error: Server refuses to fullfil the request" is a bzr error, correct?
[01:06] <awmcclain> (I'm just trying to do a sanity check on this script I'm writing)
[01:08] <poolie> awmcclain: yes
[01:08] <poolie> hello kiko
[01:09] <poolie> abentley: hi, how about a brief call?
[01:26] <abentley> poolie: sure.
[01:26] <abentley> skype?
[01:27] <poolie> sure, it'll just take a few minutes to start that machine
[01:36] <kiko> hey poolie
[01:37] <spiv> poolie: Ok, I've sent that to PQM.
[01:38] <spiv> poolie: (James and Ian's Branch.set_last_revision_info hook)
[01:41] <lifeless> spiv: do we both actually reading less than full records from streams at all?
[01:41] <lifeless> spiv: I'm writing up the new streams api proposal in detail, and wondering whether to do the read() callable thing, or just slap bytes around
[01:41] <spiv> lifeless: I'm not sure.  I remember doing some of the work to make that possible, I don't recall how far it got.
[01:44] <lifeless> just saying 'here are the bytes' seems easier to me; once we have the interface in widespread use we could version it again. What do you think?
[01:45] <spiv> I'm fine with what's easy.
[01:46] <lifeless> ok
[01:46] <spiv> Hmm, there's a few fully-approved things lingering on BB.
[01:47] <lifeless> I don't want to merge the inventory thing
[01:47] <lifeless> aaron raised important concerns about it in London
[01:47] <lifeless> that aren't addressed; for all that Ian has approved it.
[01:47] <lifeless> (so its not been sitting there due to lazy robert; its deliberate)
[01:47] <spiv> lifeless: you also have " Fix the test HTTPServer to be isolated from chdir calls made while it is running"
[01:48] <lifeless> that bounced with a spurious conflict I think
[01:48] <lifeless> NEWS update or something. Be good to merge that.
[01:48] <lifeless> abentley: btw, I sent a loom:Merge thing to the list yesterday; as the only other active loom dev would you like to approve/resubmit it?
[01:49] <spiv> (I don't actually see your inventory thing in the list)
[01:49] <lifeless> sorry, http://bundlebuggy.aaronbentley.com/request/<1199746830.1954.76.camel@lifeless-64>
[01:50] <lifeless> its resubmit
[01:50] <lifeless> but doing the things it lists isn't enough, is what I meant
[01:51] <lifeless> the problems are more conceptual than code
[02:01] <spiv> lifeless: well, I'm not too worried about the details of resubmit items, given the number of approved and conditionally approved items...
[02:01] <lifeless> sure, my memory was glitchy
[02:02] <spiv> That's why we have BB :)
[02:06] <lifeless> ok
[02:07] <lifeless> draft written, sending as MERGE hopeing for comments
[02:35] <abentley> Oh, I think I know a significant factor in the BB lockups-- the automatic merge detection seems to be triggering them.
[02:36] <lifeless> ah
[02:36] <abentley> It's a fairly long process, possibly it can be sped up.
[02:37] <lifeless> which reminds me
[02:37] <abentley> Or maybe I can reduce the period it takes out locks.
[02:37] <lifeless> I really need to track down the slow index lookups bug
[02:37] <lifeless> abentley: could you calculate the things you need to analyse, release lock, do the work, reacquire and insert results ?
[02:37] <abentley> That would be unspeakably awesome.
[02:38] <abentley> lifeless: Hard to say.  The framework has hidden the fact that any locks are being acquired.
[02:38] <lifeless> yes, they tend to do that.
[02:38] <lifeless> I've become quite allergic to that behaviour as the years have gone by
[02:39] <abentley> In terms of the process, yes, I don't need to hit the database until I've calculated what's new.
[02:42] <abentley> about stacking: one case that worries me is when the owner of the stacked-on branch doesn't realize that it's stacked-on.
[02:42] <abentley> And deletes it, thinking it won't break anyone else.
[02:42] <lifeless> right
[02:43] <abentley> Even though the person who stacked on it made an explicit choice.
[02:43] <lifeless> This is why I punted on auto stacking initially, because then users are always explicitly accepting that risk. Obviously thats not viable for Just Works long term though.
[02:43] <lifeless> But I don't see any good way of telling people
[02:44] <abentley> So you're okay with it, if the user explicitly chose to stack?
[02:45] <lifeless> I don't see a way out
[02:45] <lifeless> I have minor nightmares about what happened in arch
[02:45] <abentley> Make it a social problem?
[02:45] <abentley> It's rude to stack on someone who hasn't invited it?
[02:45] <lifeless> yeah
[02:46] <lifeless> bundles are a good example of a form of stacking that works quite well
[02:46] <abentley> Right.
[02:46] <lifeless> I think it would be ok for me to branch from you, but stack on bzr.dev. For instance.
[02:47] <lifeless> by ok, I mean 'pretty safe'
[02:47] <abentley> The policy stuff I'm working on would allow me to *recommend* that if you upload stuff to my site, you should stack on my copy of bzr.dev.
[02:47] <lifeless> thats nice
[02:47] <abentley> I'm leaving out auto-stacking on the local host.
[02:48] <abentley> Unless the user configures it.
[02:48] <abentley> But no local stacking by default, since it proved controversial.
[02:50] <abentley> So I think we don't need a way for branches to declare that they can't be stacked on.  Which means we don't need a new format for stacked-on branches.
[02:50] <lifeless> abentley: yup.
[02:50] <lifeless> (beyond it working of course :P)
[02:53] <abentley> Speaking of formats that don't work, if you decide supporting weaves is too painful, I'm definitely amenable to ditching them at this point.
[02:53] <lifeless> have a read of the doc
[02:53] <lifeless> I think it will be easy to work with
[02:53] <lifeless> and not leak abstractions everywhere
[03:00] <abentley> One thing I notice is that you provide a way to ensure that the stream can reconstruct a fulltext.
[03:01] <lifeless> the thing for inventories do you mean?
[03:01] <abentley> Yes, for inventories.  Bundles don't do that-- they get the compression parent fulltext from the target repo, convert it to the right format, and apply the delta to it.
[03:02] <lifeless> generally these streams will do the same. there is a case where that does not work though for fetch
[03:02] <lifeless> if you look at the model1To2Helper
[03:02] <lifeless> instead of copying inventories it does iter_rev_trees
[03:02] <lifeless> tweaks the content, and serialises
[03:04] <abentley> Did you have more to say?
[03:06] <lifeless> oh sorry; email distraction. damn thing.
[03:07] <lifeless> so a line delta of an xml6 inventory is not safe to apply to an xml7 inventory, etc.
[03:07] <lifeless> thats why the inventory option exists, because one needs to be able to construct the inventories to do iter_rev_trees in the model changing helper
[03:08] <abentley> But an xml7 inventory can be converted into an xml6 inventory.
[03:08] <abentley> And the delta can be applied to that.
[03:08] <lifeless> so read in the inventory, parse, downgrade, serialise, then apply the delta
[03:08] <lifeless> ?
[03:09] <abentley> Right.
[03:09] <abentley> You can do it however you want.  Just thought I'd mention the option.
[03:09] <lifeless> as long as we have deterministic serialisers that will work, but it feels like there is an element of risk we can avoid
[03:10] <lifeless> If you don't have a strong opinion I'd rather avoid having to have the text storage layer adapt back through the parsed data like that
[03:12] <abentley> Sure.  It looks fine to me.
[03:13] <abentley> (Aside from the fact that it doesn't fix bug #2:-)
[03:13] <lifeless> *blink*
[03:14] <abentley> BB thinks you promised that this patch would fix bug #2.  Perhaps the bug regex is too forgiving.
[03:14] <lifeless> ah
[03:15] <lifeless> I went to https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/2
[03:21] <beuno> lifeless, just for the record, I feel bad my command not found code ended up getting into the core with both you and abentley being against it  :(
[03:21] <beuno> s/bad/not satisfied
[03:22] <beuno> so I'm open to go a different direction, if we can find one that makes everyone happier  :)
[03:23] <lifeless> beuno: that was a confusing message - not that my vote was 'approve'
[03:23] <lifeless> *note*
[03:23] <lifeless> beuno: The core code without a included database I am entirely happy with.
[03:25] <beuno> lifeless, yes, I saw the approve, I was referring to both of you being against it, even though I split it into two, so we could discuss the remaining part separately
[03:25] <abentley> beuno: If I felt strongly, I'd have vetoed.  I just don't like the feature very much.
[03:26] <abentley> So changing approach wouldn't help.
[03:26] <abentley> But please don't take it personally.
[03:26] <lifeless> beuno: thats why I'm saying my comment was confusing. The core I'm happy with. The remaining part I'm not.
[03:26] <lifeless> and as abentley sayss, if we felt stringly we can veto
[03:26] <beuno> alright, feel less bad about it being piped through with "because poolie said so"  :p
[03:26] <lifeless> I wrote that two days ago
[03:27] <lifeless> and thought it included the database at the time I wrote it
[03:27] <lifeless> then I realised it didn't, but didn't clear the comment field when I changed the vote to approve.
[03:27] <lifeless> lifeless, here for your confusion.
[03:27] <beuno> aaah, right, ok ok
[03:28] <beuno> I can continue the remaining steps as a plugin and try and find consensus along the way
[03:38] <beuno> ah, I can't reject my own stuff on BB
[03:55] <spiv> beuno: huh, that's odd.  Oh, because you don't have voting rights on BB in general?
[03:57] <beuno> spiv, yup yup
[03:57] <beuno> but I though I could reject my own stuff
[04:05] <beuno> jelmer, BB still hates me  :)    my patches get approved automatically (one vote), but I can't vote on other patches
[04:05] <lifeless> hmm, this isn't quite right
[04:06] <lifeless> the delta closure stuff fits the api, but the api doesn't make it clear how to serialise
[04:06] <lifeless> shrug; I think it will be more clear in the wash.
[04:08] <lifeless> actually, no - the key thing is that we're going to want to be able to ask for a full text
[04:08]  * lifeless goes back to api design for a bit
[04:13] <poolie> spiv: reading your #213425 fix
[04:18] <spiv> poolie: ah cool.  I'm just heading off for lunch
[04:58] <abentley> lifeless: I didn't realize 'till now that was a stale message.  I'll look, but I very much doubt BB caused the delay.
[05:15] <spiv> Hmm, the set_last_revision_info hook failed to merge.
[05:15] <Talden> What the recommended CVS to Bazaar path (HEAD, branches and tags)?  I know the cvs2svn does 'the right thing' as I've been through that process... Is the task of getting subvsersion changesets into bazaar straightforward? svn2bzr from a subversion dump dies on even the most trivial dumps I've tried.
[05:16] <mwhudson> there are versions of svn2bzr around that work, i don't know the details though
[05:16] <mwhudson> there is also cvsps-import, don't know if that does branches/tags though
[05:16] <AfC> spiv: that Subversion import is _still_ running. Seems to be going a bit faster, though [I have the shell script loop printing the date each cycle of 100 revisions].
[05:17] <Talden> cvs2svn is amazingly good at ironing out those CVS inconsistencies.
[05:17] <AfC> It almost seems to imply that accessing newer revisions in an upstream Subversion repo is faster than older ones. {shrug}. It is such a travesty that the pain inflicted by this reflects poorly on Bazaar.
[05:18] <mwhudson> Talden: there is also bzr-svn of course
[05:18] <AfC> Talden: you're probably better off to go from CVS to Bazaar direct. The less intermediaries the better.
[05:18] <Talden> I had a look at there were mentions of svn 1.5 and patching python bindings... I'd rather not have to learn all about python to use the tool.
[05:19] <spiv> jamesh: your set_last_revision_info branch is failing: http://rafb.net/p/p2S39x21.html
[05:19] <spiv> jamesh: I'm looking into it now
[05:19] <Talden> the cvs2svn tool is adding git conversion, hopefully bazaar shouldn't be any harder.
[05:21] <Talden> It will be interesting to see what happens with repo size... CVS 2.1GB -> Subversion 1.6GB... hopefully Bazaars is a little tighter.  If it's not we'll probably be forced to say bye-bye to a lot of the history to make it more manageable.
[05:36] <jamesh> spiv: hmm.  I wonder if the conversion code should use _write_last_revision_info()?
[05:37] <spiv> jamesh: yeah, I was just starting to think the same thing
[05:37] <spiv> jamesh: after all, we don't really want the hook to fire in this case anyway
[05:38] <jamesh> spiv: and we don't quite have a valid branch at that point either.
[05:38] <spiv> Right.
[05:38] <spiv> So giving that branch object to a hook would definitely be a bad idea.
[05:39] <spiv> Using _write_last_revision_info fixes the test.  I'll run the full suite and if it passes, I'll resubmit.
[05:39] <spiv> I suspect this is the only problem.
[05:39] <jamesh> well, it might be a valid branch by the time the hook is called if it didn't throw an exception earlier :)
[05:39] <spiv> Heh :)
[05:39] <jamesh> actually, it hasn't even written the branch/format at that stage
[05:40] <spiv> Right, so giving a branch 6 object that's pointing to a branch 5 on disk is asking for trouble.
[05:40] <spiv> Besides, the last_revision_info isn't being changed, so firing the hook is definitely the wrong thing to do.
[05:52] <spiv> jamesh: tests all pass locally, I'll resend to PQM with that one-line change.
[05:52] <jamesh> spiv: thanks
[06:31] <poolie> spiv: paramiko fix looks good
[06:31] <poolie> i'm going to start doing 1.4 now
[06:44] <abentley> Okay, Bundle Buggy should never drop mail now.
[06:45] <abentley> Even if hung when the mail comes in (it will just build up until processed).
[06:49] <spiv> abentley: nice!
[06:49] <jamesh> do you know why it dies occasionally yet?
[07:02] <poolie> is it just me or do we get a lot of lock warnings from the tests now?
[07:05] <lifeless> thats what prompted me to do my patch
[07:05] <poolie> is it still awaiting review?
[07:07] <spiv> We do get a lot of warnings, yeah.
[07:09] <poolie> it looks like there were a lot more than before
[07:14] <lifeless> abentley: it was in my browsers POST cache
[07:15] <lifeless> abentley: I hit retry and it went in; I erroneously blamed BB for the queing
[07:46] <siretart> hi folks
[07:47] <siretart> can someone look what going wrong here: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/62805/? is this a known bug, or did I manage to fuck up my branch on launchpad?
[07:48] <siretart> UserWarning: file group LockableFiles(<bzrlib.transport.http._urllib.HttpTransport_urllib url=http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Esiretart/aspectc%2B%2B/debian/.bzr/repository/>) was not explicitly unlocked
[08:01] <ubotu> New bug: #215522 in bzr "bazaar internal error on FTP push" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215522
[08:01] <poolie> siretart: hi
[08:02] <siretart> hi poolie
[08:03] <poolie> i'll check it out
[08:03] <siretart> I'm trying to imort that into a an rich-pack-root shared repository, using bzr 1.3
[08:04] <siretart> seems to be related to that, becuase local branching does work, though
[08:06] <poolie> ah ok
[08:06] <poolie> this rings a bell
[08:06] <poolie> siretart: i think abentley will be around in a few hours and i think he is working on a bug related to this
[08:06] <poolie> sorry but i really need to finish up and leave here
[08:07] <poolie> if you search lp for "revision not present" you may find the bug
[08:15] <poolie> siretart: in your local repo would you please run
[08:15] <poolie> cat .bzr/repository/format
[08:19] <siretart> poolie: Bazaar pack repository format 1 (needs bzr 0.92)
[08:19] <poolie> ok
[08:19] <poolie> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/215533
[08:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 215533 in bzr "Revision not present error pulling from knit to rich-pack-root repository" [Undecided,New]
[08:21] <siretart> poolie: wow. Thanks for filing the bug. Subscribing myself now
[08:22] <poolie> i suggest you should either upgrade the branch on launchpad
[08:22] <poolie> or upgrade locally and push up
[08:22] <poolie> assuming you are able to write to this branch
[08:22] <poolie> you should just make sure you have a backup first to be sure
[08:22] <siretart> :)
[08:23] <poolie> sorry for the interruption
[08:23] <poolie> when it's upgraded it should be much faster though
[08:23] <siretart> with 'pushing up', you mean rsyncing it over sftp? (does rsync support sftp at all?)
[08:25] <poolie> over sftp or bzr+ssh
[08:25] <ubotu> New bug: #215533 in bzr "Revision not present error pulling from knit to rich-pack-root repository" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215533
[08:25] <poolie> oh obviously you can write to it
[08:56] <poolie> ppas building now...
[09:08] <poolie> good night
[09:23] <spiv> poolie: hooray!
[09:31] <AfC> Still importing...
[09:37] <AfC> Hm.  Anyone know if you can get an svn "dump" of a subversion repository with other than local filesystem access to it? Its gotta be faster to rsync that blob down locally and then pull revisions out of it directly. 9 minutes per 100 revisions is crazy.
[09:38] <mwhudson> svnsync
[09:39] <mwhudson> i doubt it's very fast though
[09:51] <AfC> Whoof. Bug report, I think: If bzr-svn is in the middle of a pull, and you try and branch from that repository, bzr breaks complaining index file blah .iix not found. Shouldn't the otherwise accursed locks be preventing this?
[10:23] <j^> hi, why does .bzr/branch/branch.conf have push_location but parent_location instead of pull_location?
[10:40] <poco> hi
[10:41] <poco> any idea on how to tunnel a bzr+ssh on windows? (windows->gateway->ssh-server)
[12:06] <AfC> Hm. I now have a pack that is 177.9 MB big
[13:50] <clarby> hi, is it possible to do a partial push? like, i commit A and B, but I only want to push B.
[13:52] <andrea-bs> clarby: are A and B two files or two revisions?
[13:53] <clarby> andrea-bs: ah, sorry, they are files (directories)
[13:54] <andrea-bs> clarby: you can revert the changes made to A, push and recommit A
[13:55] <clarby> ah, too much hassle .. I can just finish what I'm not done with yet and push it all
[14:05] <ubotu> New bug: #215674 in bzr-gtk "uncommit needs an option for saving commit messages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215674
[14:07] <ubotu> New bug: #130372 in bzr-svn "Abandon branching schemes" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/130372
[16:06] <ubotu> New bug: #215732 in bzr "bzr-buildpackage --native had an internal error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215732
[16:08] <awilkins> Ok, I just had a massive all-nighter hackathon on my current horrible++ project (involving bzr). Someone give me something to do for the next 20 minutes that isn't hacking horrible Java code :-)
[16:09] <bob2> haha
[16:09] <awilkins> THen I can POETS
[16:19] <mw-home> is there a bzr-svn to go with bzr 1.4?
[16:20] <awilkins> jelmer: ping
[16:28] <dato> mw-home: no, according to jelmer in the mailing list
[16:28] <mw-home> dato: ouch!  I need to rollback to bzr 1.3 then.
[17:24] <jelmer> mw-home: it's not 1.4 that's out yet btw, it's just the rc
[17:34] <_MMA_> I don't know if this is a Launchpad or Bazaar question. Is there a way to keep specific files synced between branches?
[17:35] <jdahlin> Hi, are there any web based frontends for bzr similar to what is used on http://git.kernel.org ?
[17:35] <jdahlin> basically just a list of project / description / owner / last change
[17:35] <_MMA_> "Automatically" synced that is.
[17:39] <johnny> jdahlin, so you don't consider bzr-webserve or loggerhead to be similiar?
[17:40] <johnny> :)
[17:40] <jdahlin> johnny: can I get such a view from them?
[17:40] <johnny> similiar is a very broad term for web viewers :)
[17:40] <jdahlin> oh, no, not similar enough!
[17:40] <johnny> you'd have to customize the code
[17:40] <johnny> patches are accepted i'm sure tho
[17:41] <jdahlin> eg, I have to do it myself!
[17:41] <johnny> what do you find lacking?
[17:41] <johnny> well some things are prolly more on the upstream developer todo than others
[17:41] <jdahlin> a "list of project / description / owner / last change" and being able to track on a per user basis
[17:41] <johnny> track on per user i'm sure is coming
[17:42] <johnny> sorry.. i'm not sure of the details 100%
[17:42] <johnny> i'm doing the same thing you are prolly :)
[17:50] <jelmer> jdahlin: I think webserve has such a thing, but I'm nto entirely sure
[18:08] <ubotu> New bug: #215797 in bzr "regression in annotate on mysql tree" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215797
[18:35] <rocky> don't suppose there are gutsy packages for latest bzr-svn (0.4.9) and bzr 1.3.1 floating around?
[18:36] <_MMA_> rocky: They might have been backported.
[18:36] <rocky> ppa has bzr 1.4rc1 and bzr-svn 0.4.6 ... which are incompatible with one another
[18:37] <jelmer> rocky: I've just removed bzr-svn-0.4.6
[18:37] <rocky> jelmer: that... doesn't help ;)
[18:38] <clarby> Hmm, every other time I try to push a commit it just halts. I log into the server I'm pushing to , run break-lock, and it re-push and it works. consistently. Anyone else get this?
[18:39] <jelmer> rocky: at least it shouldn't complain about incompatible versions anymore..
[18:39] <clarby> (and my cpu goes to 100% when it halts/hangs)
[18:39] <rocky> hrm, can't seem to access packages.ubuntu.com
[18:39] <jelmer> rocky: there's no bzr-svn compatible with bzr 1.4
[18:40] <rocky> didn
[18:40] <rocky> *didn't suspect there was
[18:40] <rocky> mostly i'm just interested in using the latest bzr-svn
[18:40] <rocky> whatever bzr comes with that is fine
[18:41] <jelmer> debian sid and ubuntu hardy have the latest
[18:41] <rocky> don't suppose the src pkg for ubuntu hardy would just recompile on gutsy?
[18:43] <jelmer> I think that should work, not aware of anything that may break it
[18:45] <clarby> Does anyone know if you're supposed to send recipients into send_mail() in chunks, or if the MTA chunks them up? (roughly 550 email addresses).
[18:46] <rocky> jelmer: needs a newer version of python-central it seems
[18:48] <rocky> ok, looks like i'm good
[19:01] <rocky> jelmer: don't suppose you have a "getting started with bzr-svn" link for people who need DVCS, never used bzr, but have to deal with a company's svn repo? :)
[19:02] <jelmer> rocky: there's no specific documentation for bzr-svn other than the FAQ
[19:03] <jelmer> rocky: bzr-svn makes svn branches feel like regular bzr branches
[19:03] <rocky> so "bzr branch http://mysvnurl.com/something/trunk" should work just fine?
[19:03] <jelmer> rocky: yep
[19:03] <rocky> i'm getting a 401 error even tho svn has cached the credentials for my site
[19:04] <rocky> in other words, svn ls http://mysvnurl.com/something/trunk   works fine
[19:04] <rocky> but branch on the same url does not
[19:04] <jdahlin> jelmer: do you know of a site that uses bzr-webserve, I couldn't trivally find an example
[19:04] <jelmer> and you're using svn+http://... as the url?
[19:04] <rocky> no i'm not, lol
[19:04] <rocky> that's what i asked you above =P
[19:05] <jelmer> rocky: well, the svn+ stuff is a workaround for a bug in bzr itself
[19:05] <rocky> gotcha
[19:05] <jelmer> rocky: it's only necessary if you use authentication
[19:05] <rocky> i jus couldn't find any docs telling me that i need to prepend svn+ to the url any place
[19:05] <rocky> ah
[19:05] <jelmer> jdahlin: no, not aware of any; sorry
[19:06] <jelmer> jdahlin: bzr-webserve is derived from hgweb
[19:06] <jelmer> jdahlin: http://code.bitlbee.org/hgweb/ contains an hgweb instance using bzr branches
[19:07] <jelmer> I think the layout has changed since then though
[19:09] <jdahlin> jelmer: perfect
[19:18] <javierder> ping jelmer
[19:54] <keescook> hi!  I haven't been able to find docs for something I think should be simple to do -- I want to have some kind of hook to run syntax checks before I do a commit for my tree.  where should I be looking?
[20:09] <exarkun> I can't create tags because my branch format is too old or something.  "bzr upgrade --dirstate-tags", as suggested in the error message which is reported, doesn't fix the problem.
[20:10] <beuno> exarkun, what does bzr info output?
[20:11] <exarkun> this http://rafb.net/p/POS2mv85.html
[20:12] <beuno> exarkun, and what version of bzr are you using?
[20:12] <ubotu> New bug: #215872 in bzr-gtk "gtk.branchview.linegraph.linegraph() expets tuple but some functions still pass string" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215872
[20:12] <exarkun> I tried with 1.0.0.candidate.1 on one machine and 1.3 on another with the same results
[20:27] <mtaylor> anybody around with zen on bzr-cvsps-import
[20:28] <beuno> exarkun, I really don't know, I don't use tags at all  :(
[20:29] <beuno> maybe a plain "bzr upgrade && bzr reconcile"?
[20:29] <beuno> (this is me guessing though)
[20:29] <exarkun> hmm, bzr reconcile
[20:30] <beuno> exarkun, that's just to fix some problems that might arise on upgrade
[20:31] <jkakar> It would be cool to have a 'pull' revision identifier that would behave somewhat like last, but based on the pull history.
[20:31] <jkakar> For example, pull:1 would be the same as last:1.  pull:2 would be the revision before the last pull, and so on.
[20:31] <beuno> jkakar, feel free to open a bug requesting it  :)
[20:32] <beuno> you mean "after"?
[20:32] <beuno> I'm on revno 10
[20:32] <beuno> bzr pull:1 would pull in revno 11
[20:32] <beuno> ?
[20:32] <jkakar> This would make reviewing changes easier.  You could pull a branch, review some changes and make comments.  Then, when comments are addressed do 'bzr pull && bzr diff -r pull:2' to see the changes made since your review.
[20:32] <jkakar> beuno: Not quite.  pull:N would be a history of revisions at the time bzr pull was called.
[20:33] <beuno> jkakar, hm, seems a bit more tricky, as you'd have to know what set of revisions you last pulled
[20:33] <jkakar> beuno: Right, I suspect that's the hard part.  Make bzr pull store a revision history somewhere.
[20:33] <beuno> jkakar, IMHO, having what revisions you pulled would be a step closer
[20:34] <beuno> or even how many revisions got pulled/merged in
[20:34] <beuno> "now at revno X" doesn't really say much to me
[20:34] <jkakar> beuno: Well, I first thought I wanted exactly what you suggest, but that still means I need to remember an ID to do what I want.
[20:35] <jkakar> beuno: A better UI is to offer a symbol that I can use consistently.
[20:35] <bialix> mtaylor: hi, I did several conversion with bzr-cvsps-import and it worked for me.
[20:35] <beuno> jkakar, right, it's a step closer and seems easier though  :)
[20:35] <mtaylor> bialix: have you done any of those with rich-root-pack?
[20:36] <bialix> no, why for?
[20:36] <beuno> jkakar, I might give showing what revisions you pulled a try, so if you open a bug for that one I might give it a try
[20:36] <mtaylor> bialix: when trying to push to a rich-root-pack repo, or trying to upgrade, we're getting this:
[20:36] <beuno> the other one seems a bit over my head
[20:36] <mtaylor> bzr: ERROR: Revision {('cvs-1:mtaylor-20070503013257-q7msvneefnm8ft54',)} not present in "<bzrlib.knit.KnitGraphIndex object at 0x2aaab1ff6050>".
[20:36] <bialix> mtaylor: upgrade to rich-root-pack is currently broken
[20:36] <jkakar> beuno: Cool, will do! :)
[20:36] <mtaylor> bialix: for cvs based things? or in general?
[20:36] <bialix> I promote importance of corresponding bug report to Critical
[20:37] <bialix> in general
[20:37] <mtaylor> upgrade to rich-root-pack being broken should be Critical...
[20:37] <beuno> jkakar, you can file them as separate bugs, maybe someone else can pick the other one up
[20:37] <awilkins> Bug is aleady raised to critical
[20:38] <bialix> mtaylor: sorry for my english. I already promoted it.
[20:38] <mtaylor> good
[20:38] <mtaylor> :)
[20:38] <mtaylor> bialix: does that explain why pushing from a cvs-imported branch to a RRP repo would also break with the same error?
[20:39] <bialix> Aaron said that new format pack-1.4 should land soon, that's why this bug is not fixed still, IIUC
[20:39] <mtaylor> um, all the various incompatible formats is starting to get un managable
[20:40] <mtaylor> I'm trying to move an organization to bzr, and the formats and their inability to interoperate properly is causing various amounts of bitching... fwiw of course
[20:40] <bialix> mtaylor: I think some common codepaths from non-rich-root to rich-root is just broken and this is affect and cvs-import too.
[20:40] <mtaylor> ok
[20:41] <mtaylor> bialix: cool. thanks!
[20:41] <awilkins> crazy format diversity problem ++
[20:41] <bialix> currently rich-root needed only for bzr-svn
[20:41] <mtaylor> but packs are the good-and-efficient thing, no?
[20:42] <awilkins> Yes, packs ++
[20:42] <awilkins> rich-root ++ also because good interop with SVN is a key adoption feature
[20:42] <bialix> packs is very carefully tested and widely used
[20:43] <mtaylor> bialix: by "packs", do you mean "--pack-0.92"
[20:43] <jkakar> beuno: Bug #215903 filed. :)
[20:43] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 215903 in bzr "'bzr pull' should report number of new revisions retrieved" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215903
[20:43] <bialix> so if you don't need bzr-svn interaction it's better to not using rich-roots
[20:43] <bialix> IMO, of course
[20:44] <beuno> jkakar, confirmed and assigned to me  ;)
[20:44] <bialix> mtaylor: yes.
[20:44] <mtaylor> see, this is the thing though... I even hang out in here alot, and I obviously can't figure out what format I should be using
[20:44] <jkakar> beuno: Awesome, thanks!
[20:45] <bialix> mtaylor: better to use default format. pack-0.92 is default
[20:45] <awilkins> I use rich-root-pack all the time because I have a lot of branches in svn
[20:46] <bialix> yes, of course
[20:46] <mtaylor> from an i'm-an-idiot standpoint, pack-0.92 sounds much less stable than rich-root-pack
[20:46] <mtaylor> something about that 0.92 in the name
[20:47] <bialix> that's why I called them simply packs
[20:47] <bialix> 0.92 is version number when they was landed to bzr
[20:47] <awilkins> Hmph. With pack-1.4 coming up, "pack" as a format alias would be dicey
[20:48] <awilkins> Are packs optimised for speed or size?
[20:48] <beuno> awilkins, both  :)
[20:48] <bialix> for size and speed. but some operations is still too slow with packs
[20:49] <awilkins> I've seen some papers where compressions formats got some serious performance boosts by sacrificing some size.
[20:49] <bialix> I'm still use knits for some cases
[20:50] <bialix> awilkins: there is plans about adding local cache for speeding things up. but still not.
[20:50] <ubotu> New bug: #215903 in bzr "'bzr pull' should report number of new revisions retrieved" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215903
[20:51] <bialix> currently some operations much faster with packs, but others with knits
[22:04] <jdahlin> mwhudson: thanks for doing the stoqlib/stoqdrivers import and applying the pydoctor patch!
[22:04] <mwhudson> no worries
[22:05] <mwhudson> sorry for taking quite so long on the patch, it completely slipped under my radar
[22:05] <jdahlin> no worries
[22:06] <jdahlin> :-0
[22:06] <jdahlin> :-)
[22:43] <fbond> lifeless: ping
[23:31] <ubotu> New bug: #78765 in bzr-gtk "Allow diff between two selected revisions in bzr viz" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78765
[23:46] <ubotu> New bug: #215996 in bzr-gtk "Select revision dialog doesn't show "sub" revisions" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215996