[02:00] <JaneW>  **REMINDER** Edubuntu Dev Update Meeting here - NOW
[02:00] <JaneW> hello
[02:00] <ogra> hi
[02:01] <ogra> looks like a rather small meeting today :)
[02:01] <Treenaks> ogra: only you? :)
[02:01] <ogra> Treenaks, and you :)
[02:01] <ogra> oh, and flint
[02:01] <ogra> hi flint
[02:01] <flint> Good Morning from DC...
[02:02] <JaneW> hi flint
[02:02] <flint> yes ollie, I bring greetings from elkner who is actually working!
[02:02] <flint> Hi jane!
[02:02] <ogra> yeah, we talked last night
[02:02] <ogra> (my night)
[02:02] <ogra> :)
[02:02] <flint> no ollie, elkner whined at you and you were kind enough to listen....
[02:02] <JaneW> ok so where are we
[02:03] <JaneW> what happened with kamion's build in the end?
[02:03] <ogra> JaneW, near our first completely working CD
[02:03] <JaneW> define near...?
[02:03] <JaneW> I like the completely working part...
[02:03] <ogra> that one failed, but we'll go on building until its in shape... i wont stop nagging him today ;)
[02:03] <JaneW> good ;)
[02:04] <flint> we are about to start another server install.  The Idea is each server is the latest build.
[02:04] <JaneW> we need to update the BreezyGoals page with progress
[02:04] <ogra> its the only missing bit, the apps should all be ready, artwork has to move to main to get on the CD but thats trivial
[02:04] <JaneW> for Matt et al
[02:04] <ogra> yup, as soon as i can offer a Cd we'll move to green :)
[02:04] <JaneW> great
[02:05] <JaneW> so is the server side still a problem?
[02:05] <flint> We were also beating up matt regarding inconsistencies in the install and live breezy builds.
[02:05] <ogra> thats good...
[02:05] <ogra> ha also urgently need ltsp feedback...
[02:05] <flint> ...well it is even more complicated than that...
[02:05] <ogra> needs even
[02:06] <JaneW> ogra: the main inclusion reports https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMainInclusion
[02:06] <JaneW> I see one server package was rejected
[02:06] <JaneW> one still needs work
[02:06] <JaneW> any issues with either of those?
[02:06] <ogra> mediawiki is dropped... i havent udate yet
[02:06] <ogra> updated
[02:07] <ogra> pitti didnt want it and mdz says we didnt make commitments at the summit, it was rather a survey in his eyes
[02:07] <JaneW> oic...
[02:07] <JaneW> I know a lot of ppl were *happy* at the prospect of it being in
[02:07] <JaneW> and doesn;t moodle require it?
[02:07] <JaneW> or am I confussed?
[02:08] <ogra> so mediawiki is out of discussion... unfortunately moin is very hard to install with the current package
[02:08] <ogra> moodle is standalone
[02:08] <JaneW> oic, ok good
[02:08] <ogra> wikipedia requires mediawiki
[02:08] <ogra> so users have to install it from universe...
[02:08] <ogra> its there, just not in the default install
[02:09] <ogra> i had to cut down the sipped languages for now, else the Cd explodes...
[02:10] <ogra> shipped even
[02:10] <ogra> we currently have en, de, fr and es
[02:10] <flint> sorry interrupted by crane company representative...
[02:11] <JaneW> can we get moin in?
[02:11] <JaneW> we'll have to have a wiki...
[02:11] <JaneW> sabdfl won't approve it without ;)
[02:11] <JaneW> ogra: wasn;t it wikipedia that needs media wiki?
[02:11] <ogra> if the CD turns out good, i'll see that we'll have a parallel DVD build... but i'd like to keep the CD
[02:11] <JaneW> I am sure something needed it? or was it just our summit attendee's preference...?
[02:11] <ogra> [14:08]  <ogra> wikipedia requires mediawiki
[02:12] <flint> you are going to love this...  Implementation Plan: Phase 1 - Infrastructure, specifies in section 2,Web content filtering will be an essential component of Edubunt as a requirement.
[02:13] <JaneW> ogra: es=?
[02:13] <flint> In Amerika all classroom sites must maintain filtering capability, it is federal law.
[02:14] <ogra> JaneW, spanish
[02:14] <JaneW> ok good, we need spanish :)
[02:14] <ogra> flint, i cant do anything about it...
[02:14] <flint> Elkner asked me to ask about this.
[02:14] <ogra> flint, it has to wait until breezy+1
[02:14] <flint> so i asked...
[02:14] <ogra> i told him yesterday.-
[02:14] <JaneW> and Matt told you on monday afair
[02:15] <JaneW> or one day tis week at any rate
[02:15] <flint> sorry to whine about this, but who is designing/building this part, and could a proto be available.
[02:15] <ogra> flint, i'll see if i can manage to get a default blacklist packaged
[02:15] <ogra> flint, thats me too, since nobody wanted the task
[02:15] <flint> ollie, you is wonderful...
[02:15] <JaneW> we simply had far too many 'essential' goals for breezy
[02:15] <magnon> I would _guess_ that if it's federal law to have filtering (never heard about that) - it would have some requirements to the filter?
[02:16] <magnon> which would be beyond a "default blacklist"
[02:16] <ogra> sure
[02:16] <JaneW> which were impossible to complete in the given time with the resources available
[02:16] <flint> If I have time, and do not run out of money I would like to collaborate.
[02:16] <ogra> but its more than we have now
[02:16] <JaneW> flint: take a look at the deferred table on... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyGoals
[02:16] <magnon> also, tuning a filter is an immense amount of work - I've had lots of problems with for isntance political information that students have needed, have been blocked out
[02:17] <JaneW> flint: and those are thing we thought would be in - there's another list of things that were postponed upfront...
[02:17] <ogra> flint, you can currently install squid and squidguard from universe, all thats missing is a blacklist package... we'll have to work out a good default cofiguration for breezy+1 and probably a gui
[02:17] <flint> Jane, the reason that sabdfl has you around is you husband his resources as if they were your own.
[02:17] <JaneW> magnon: exactly, we have had lengthy debates about this
[02:17] <flint> dansguardian is also out there.  I am thinking a shell script...
[02:17] <JaneW> flint: hey leave my husband out of this ;)
[02:18] <ogra> flint, dansguardian is a bit problematic with its distribution license afaik
[02:18] <flint> dear, i am the one they call skinflint.
[02:18] <magnon> danguardian is license problematic, yes
[02:18] <magnon> dans*
[02:18] <flint> thanks for the tip about dansguardian.
[02:18] <JaneW> magnon: do you have anything in your installations?
[02:19] <ogra> flint, currently its not worse than a redhat system, i dont think their squidguard is configured by default...
[02:19] <ogra> next release will be a lot better wrt content filtering
[02:19] <JaneW> also this requirement seems specific to the states...
[02:19] <magnon> I haven't been setting up anything but the firewall, my colleague has worked a lot with the filtering also when he worked at a school
[02:20] <macgyver2> it also seems quite hand-wavy...first section: http://www.ala.org/ala/pla/plapubs/technotes/internetfiltering.htm
[02:20] <magnon> but I think he used some dansguardian, as it was an on site installation
[02:20] <ogra> having a proxy is halpful in any country... if you switch on filtering is up to you ;)
[02:20] <magnon> they are always on a secondary box though
[02:20] <ogra> but lets keep on topic, we dont work on content filtering this release anymore
[02:20] <ogra> (except probably packaging a blacklist package for universe)
[02:21] <magnon> last comment - dans guardian has a weird exception, it is released under the gpl for noncommercial use - distributing that in edubuntu would be hard
[02:21] <JaneW> ogra: yes good point
[02:21] <JaneW> let's stay current for now
[02:21] <JaneW> we'll discuss this again when we have a 'completely working CD'
[02:21] <magnon> good idea :)
[02:21] <ogra> magnon, why ? we dont sell edubuntu and dont plan to
[02:21] <ogra> yup
[02:21] <ogra> which should appear within the next 30min
[02:22] <JaneW> magnon: no money will change hand, except possiblu for support or customisation never for the code
[02:22] <ogra> JaneW, keep it on ice...
[02:22] <ogra> this takes time... i have to sync and test install it...
[02:23] <JaneW> ogra: you like to keep us on the edge of our seats don't you ? ;)
[02:23] <ogra> heh
[02:23] <ogra> i cant speed it up, sorry...
[02:24] <ogra> get me a bigger line over here and i can test faster
[02:24] <ogra> ... but the build report should already say something...
[02:25] <magnon> just assume a worst case scenario already :)
[02:25] <JaneW> ogra: move to a bigger town :P
[02:25] <JaneW> *joke*
[02:26] <flint> we will stand by and build/test with your latest this afternoon ollie.
[02:26] <ogra> JaneW, i'll probably do soon
[02:26] <ogra> GF wants to buy a house...
[02:26] <JaneW> s/on/one
[02:26] <ogra> JaneW, i doubt you offended him :)
[02:26] <ogra> he wanted to go drinking
[02:26] <JaneW> I think I did
[02:26] <JaneW> but maybe he was just looking for an excuse ;)
[02:27] <flint> on the other hand I am very hurt :^)
[02:27] <JaneW> anyway so are we assuming today;s CD is good or not?
[02:27] <JaneW> because that will determine what to discuss next...
[02:27] <JaneW> flint: I know you'll cope ;)
[02:28] <ogra> i do... i wont stop working on it with Kamion... so if he doesnt stop, it should be good to go today
[02:28] <flint> zimmerman and elkner were conflicted on the installation documentation.  elkner liked ollie
[02:28] <JaneW> ok, so the CD will be good, what then?
[02:28] <JaneW> what's required next?
[02:28] <ogra> mdz didnt like mine because it had an error in the beginning, but thats fixed long ago
[02:28] <magnon> testing?
[02:28] <JaneW> yes the docs, why didn;t Matt like olis install notes?
[02:28] <ogra> getting the artwork on it ...
[02:28] <magnon> and then testing^infinity
[02:29] <JaneW> ok, well then there shouldn't be a problem
[02:29] <JaneW> ogra: ok, and do you have all the artwork you need?
[02:29] <JaneW> I have been soliciting for more, but no luck so far
[02:29] <JaneW> and my own attempt was pitiful
[02:29] <magnon> did you get any response from the badger guy?
[02:29] <JaneW> yes once the CD is good TEST TEST TEST
[02:30] <JaneW> magnon: no :((
[02:30] <ogra> JaneW, edubuntu-artwork currently has a gdm theme, a wallpaper and splash... it sets the icon theme and gdm thme in the postinstall... thats all...i'll add other walpaper over time
[02:30] <JaneW> ogra: ok
[02:31] <JaneW> I mailed Sebastein Loss 4 times, to get some nice mascot stuff... but nothing yet.
[02:31] <magnon> I thought you mentioned that he was going away?
[02:32] <ogra> grmpf...
[02:33] <ogra> the CD is done... it would be good if not someone had made python-epydoc uninstallable ... argh
[02:34] <ogra> i dont even know what python-epydoc is .... grmbl
[02:34] <flint> all hell is breaking out at my house!!!
[02:36] <JaneW> fint: why?
[02:37] <JaneW> ogra: problem?
[02:37] <ogra> JaneW, easy to work around with another rebuild.... but odd...
[02:38] <flint> you would not believe it.  I can sound the all clear now...
[02:38] <ogra> but http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/20050902.2/report.html looks very good
[02:38] <ogra> (note that i'm concentrating on i386 only
[02:38] <ogra> )
[02:39] <ajmitch> ogra: looking very good indeed
[02:39] <ogra> ajmitch, if i remove epydoc its a release :)
[02:39] <ogra> but i rather find out what breaky epydoc...
[02:39] <ogra> breaks even
[02:40] <JaneW> ogra: will you look at the other builds once i386 is behaving ?
[02:40] <ogra> JaneW, sure... but most of this stuff will sort itself...
[02:40] <JaneW> ora: good!? :P
[02:40] <ogra> powerpc is missing the fixes from kamion...
[02:40] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, strange, since py-epydoc installs ok here
[02:40] <ogra> many errors there are inherited from ubuntu...
[02:41] <ogra> they just dont show up there, because we have other default packages
[02:41] <flint> breezy is at least installing...
[02:42] <flint> what i mean is you do not have to install hoary and upgrade any more.
[02:44] <flint> Jane, on another topic, what is the edubuntu mafia doing in Montreal?
[02:45] <JaneW> flint: drinking prolly ;)
[02:46] <ogra> smoking too
[02:46] <ogra> ;)
[02:46] <flint> ...what was that Argintenian drink?  I was thinking that with mcquillin and everyone there we (or maybe you) should think agenda. :^)
[02:47] <flint> or am i jumping the gun?
[02:47] <ogra> JaneW, Kamion means the CD (i386 at least) is good with the next build... i wouldnt start premature champaign orgys, but it looks like we'll be partially green this evening
[02:47] <ogra> powerpc and amd64 have a size problem
[02:48] <flint> how bad a size problem?
 ogra: amd64 is about 6MB over; powerpc is about 50MB over; i386 fits
[02:48] <ogra> amd64 should be easy... i'll find something to drop...
[02:49] <ogra> powerpc hasnt the installer fixes yet...
[02:49] <ogra> so that might change
[02:49] <ogra> jsgotangco, hey, how was thebeer
[02:49] <flint> 50 megs is pessimistically 10 percent...
[02:49] <jsgotangco> salut
[02:49] <jsgotangco> its raining so hard i wasn't able to go out at all
[02:49] <ogra> flint, as i said, there are fixes in the installaer part mising, Kamion didnt do the yaboot update yet
[02:49] <jsgotangco> i had to be content with the cheap wine given to me 3 days ago
[02:50] <magnon> does Edubuntu nescessarily have to hold the 1-cd limit?
[02:50] <ogra> flint, so the 50MB might actually be smaller
[02:50] <magnon> or is the discussion about Breezy in general
[02:50] <jsgotangco> ideally, but not necessarily
[02:50] <flint> the deal at the conference was that we could consider DVD.  Over to you Jane.
[02:50] <ogra> magnon, we are going for a DVD anyway... but i'd like to keep the CD around
[02:50] <magnon> well, going for a dvd wouldnt get you slaughtered for making a double cd set
[02:51] <flint> I am still trying to get over it not fitting on a floppy :^)
[02:51] <ogra> worst case i'll cut the CD down to english only with a language install optin over network
[02:51] <magnon> at least not for Edubuntu, as for me that would be considered an "addon" with extra software
[02:51] <magnon> ogra: may I suggest you include languages we know will be used a lot in countries that might not have very good inet access? :)
[02:51] <ogra> flint, just develop a new and shiny copression algorhitm ;)
[02:52] <flint> ...a 5.25" floppy!  Ollie, is there any magic compression that does character sets really well?
[02:52] <ogra> magnon, we'll have *all* 90 langs on the DVD
[02:52] <magnon> and then scrap things like german, swedish, danish on the cd
[02:52] <jsgotangco> scrap german *gasp*
[02:52] <flint> harsh!
[02:52] <ogra> flint,  i doubt it, thats why i said develop one ;)
[02:52] <magnon> jsgotangco: you can download it :)
[02:53] <flint> as they say in german "crap"
[02:53] <jsgotangco> tell that to the german who is developing it right now
[02:53] <magnon> :O
[02:53] <ogra> magnon, i just ct down the langs anyway... we currently ship only en, de, fr and es
[02:53] <magnon> jsgotangco: Norwegian isn't in the CD distro, but I'd be all for scrapping it if you included portuguese and spanish etc.
[02:53] <flint> no the internationalization is a foundation of this org.
[02:53] <ogra> s7ct/cut/
[02:53] <flint> loose applications rather than language capability.
[02:54] <flint> wait...why not esperanto?
[02:54] <magnon> because noone talks esperanto? :)
[02:54] <magnon> pardon, but I like being ignorant from time to time
[02:54] <Treenaks> magnon: that's why it's needed in schools 8)
[02:54] <magnon> :)
[02:55] <ogra> guys, the DVD will have them all... no need for discussion ;)
[02:55] <magnon> ;)
[02:55] <magnon> ogra: our ancient servers dont have dvd-roms!
[02:55] <magnon> *sue canonical*
[02:56] <flint> how much are the language files in size?
[02:56] <magnon> we're obliged by federal law to use servers from the viking age to honor our ancestors
[02:56] <flint> zimmerman indicated that on the distro they were like 50 percent of the payload.
[02:56] <ogra> yup
[02:56] <magnon> also, axe training is obligatory from age 8
[02:56] <flint> ah, federal law rears its ugly head again
[02:56] <jsgotangco> it'll fit in the dvd for sure but with our current size, there were a few times that the cd got overcrowded
[02:57] <jsgotangco> lang packs are huge
[02:57] <JaneW> sorry was lagged
[02:57] <ogra> jsgotangco, i just have set the limit to 700 MB and its still to small for ppc and amd64
[02:57] <magnon> but to be honest
[02:57] <JaneW> sorry but we won;t actaully get any CDs or DVDs initially
[02:57] <flint> zimmerman whined about this lang pack size issue...a lot!
[02:57] <JaneW> we have not been given a budget
[02:57] <ogra> even with only 4 langpacks
[02:57] <JaneW> but we have to make sure they can d/l and be cut to CDs/DVDs
[02:57] <magnon> will edubuntu at this release be used by people who aren't already somewhat proficient? as it's somewhat clear it won't be polished...
[02:58] <JaneW> hi jsgotangco :/
[02:58] <flint> the way out is that i386 is released on cd and amd and ppc are on dvd.
[02:58] <ogra> i'll think about splitting in a install and a lang CD, but the DVD will requre less work...
[02:58] <JaneW> magnon: lol
[02:58] <JaneW> TROLL
[02:58] <magnon> I'm trying to be realistic :p
[02:58] <ogra> flint, either all or none... i cant split up by arch
[02:58] <flint> we in DC love complicated unsatisfactory compromises... I see your point.
[02:59] <ogra> flint, but having a additional DVD for i386 wont do no harm
[03:00] <JaneW> flint: go it, it was a Mojito!
[03:00] <flint> dvd was an option that sbdafl embraces, I still want the floppy option.
[03:01] <ogra> flint i'll see what i can do...
[03:01] <JaneW> ogra: I think that makes sense for the laguage CD to be an extension
[03:01] <ogra> are you fine with a 600 floppy install ?
[03:01] <ogra> flint, ^^ ?
[03:01] <magnon> to continue on my trollinig, I'll have to be leaving this incredibly constructive meeting in a few minutes :P
[03:01] <JaneW> service the main languages on the first CD and the smaller langauages on the other, it will dramaticall reduce the number of second CDs required.
[03:01] <magnon> *trolling
[03:01] <flint> seriously, on the topic of floppy, we actually ended up trying to install breezy on a machine that had no bios boot for cd.  Remember the old rawrite boot floppy?
[03:02] <JaneW> magnon: I meant a literal Norwegian troll btw ;)
[03:02] <magnon> hehe
[03:02] <flint> There is no troll like Norwegian troll...
[03:02] <magnon> flint: please, don't mention floppies
[03:02] <magnon> I hate them :(
[03:03] <flint> doesn't everyone, until they are the only option, then we find love in our hearts.
[03:03] <JaneW> flint: it's unlikley we'll ship a ~500 diskset in 5,25' floppy!
[03:03] <magnon> kids steal floppies
[03:03] <magnon> (true!)
[03:03] <flint> na i am whining about breezy needing that option for really funky machines.
[03:03] <jsgotangco> err guys is this a meeting?
[03:04] <magnon> jsgotangco: up to several people are gathered here, speaking together, I'd say yes :)
[03:04] <ogra> JaneW, but you can do nifty marketing stuff with 500 floppys :)
[03:04] <JaneW> jsgotangco: it was, but you weren't here to control us...
[03:04] <magnon> ogra: treasure hunt ^^
[03:04] <flint> if ollie is getting an iso out the door, why slow him down?
[03:04] <ogra> yeah
[03:04] <jsgotangco> JaneW: understandable since i'm difficult to begin with
[03:04] <JaneW> ok ogra you can go.. if you want to
[03:04] <JaneW> jsgotangco: just slap me please
[03:04] <ogra> flint, you can neither speed up nor solw down ... i'm totally depenent on our scripts
[03:05] <flint> 500 floppies, we could do a mosaic, or a puzzle!
[03:05] <ogra> slow even
[03:05] <JaneW> jsgotangco: and then cheer up, and don;t be cross with me anymore
[03:05] <JaneW> please
[03:05] <JaneW> flint: frisbees!
[03:05] <flint> the old saying is "if you want it bad, you get it bad" let them run...
[03:06] <JaneW> flint: not hugely areodynamic though, but they fly ok, and take eyes out...
[03:06] <flint> staple them together for clothing or shelter.
[03:06] <flint> nasa likely will use them as a cost effective replacement for shuttle tiles...
[03:06] <ogra> you can ship them different colored and tie them together like apatchwork blanket
[03:06] <ogra> edubuntu quilt release :)
[03:07] <flint> guys i just mentioned the old boot floppy, am i a bad man?
[03:07] <ogra> flint, only in Kamions eyes (our installer god)
[03:07] <flint> sorry s/guys/guys and ladies/
[03:07] <JaneW> flint: you know you are
[03:08] <JaneW> ok do we have anything else to discuss
[03:08] <JaneW> which is actually relevant?
[03:08] <flint> edubuntu class machines, being ltsp class beasts tend to have all the bangs and whistles including boot cds
[03:09] <JaneW> flint: and you can d/l and span-disk copy to floppy if you so chose... good luck
[03:09] <flint> the filter machines (code named "snow-whites" by me) are another story.
[03:09] <ogra> who here needs/uses emacs in his/her classroom ?
[03:09] <flint> those are for a future release...
[03:09] <magnon> ogra: I used to have it, but they would never run Linux
[03:09] <ogra> flint, do you know if elkner uses emacs for teaching ?
[03:09] <magnon> used for musical education
[03:10] <jsgotangco> err don't remove emacs please....
[03:10] <ogra> its huge... it would make amd64 installable
[03:10] <flint> he never uses it but, emacs is pretty flexable in size.
[03:10] <jsgotangco> for the sake of free software zealotry....
[03:10] <flint> xemacs is bigger than regular emacs
[03:10] <ogra> yup
[03:10] <magnon> what would free software be without zealots
[03:10] <magnon> emacs sucks, btw
[03:10] <magnon> :D
[03:11] <flint> rms would not be pleased if we did not pay him some homage
[03:11] <flint> word on that, but those that do are zealots.
[03:11] <JaneW> ogra: ok lets get the build built and we'll be green by monday?
[03:11] <JaneW> ogra: we must update BreezyGoals notes too
[03:11] <ogra> JaneW, we'll be green with the next build
[03:11] <JaneW> today?
[03:12] <magnon> umm... what about letting RMS write a short story and place it linked on the desktop by default
[03:12] <ogra> JaneW, foe i386 at least, yes
[03:12] <ogra> i'll call out todays CD as milesone release i think
[03:12] <JaneW> :)
[03:12] <flint> labor day in Amerika.  Meaningless holiday since the unions have been busted by bush.
[03:12] <ogra> jsgotangco, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/edubuntu-breezy/desktop
[03:13] <ogra> pick an alternative
[03:13] <jsgotangco> ahh
[03:13] <flint> is emacs ok or do you need xemacs?
[03:13] <ogra> jsgotangco, i need 50 MB for powerpc and 6 for amd64
[03:13] <jsgotangco> errr why is there bluez
[03:13] <ogra> flint, i'm a vi guy i dont need emacs at all..
[03:13] <jsgotangco> can bluez you don't need that on a server
[03:13] <ogra> jsgotangco, its in ubuntu-desktop its iherited from there
[03:14] <ogra> jsgotangco, i have both, servers and clients
[03:14] <jsgotangco> arrghh
[03:14] <flint> ok lets not start all that again. :^)   Anyway, you are a vim guy.
[03:14] <ogra> if you stumble about something obvious and big, tell me
[03:15] <flint> like i said the elkner and I will be installing whatever iso we find monday.
[03:15] <JaneW> ok, I must go fetch my boys
[03:15] <ogra> JaneW, have fun :)
[03:15] <magnon> I must go meet up with some friends that I almost forgot
[03:15] <magnon> *hugs* :D
[03:15] <flint> i swear he is daft.  He will take your distro and go production with it.
[03:15] <magnon> I'll be back for uber testing on monday
[03:15] <flint> the boys are most important jane.
[03:15] <ogra> flint, i'll send an announcement to the ML if it i386 CD is done
[03:16] <ogra> flint, it should be in a state where he can do that already...
[03:16] <flint> we will receive it, and download it courtesy of the Arlington OC-1.
[03:16] <flint> damn I love a plan!
[03:17] <flint> are we all out of here?  I am.
[03:17] <ogra> :)
[03:17] <ogra> i'll watch the CD building ...
[03:17] <JaneW> magnon: deal
[03:17] <JaneW> see ya in a few
[03:17] <JaneW> *running now*
[03:17] <flint> later.


[12:14] <cbx33> ping JaneW
[12:15] <pygi> cbx33, dont you think JaneW isnt here at this moment?
[12:15] <pygi> not all are awake for 25 hours
[12:20] <Burgwork> pygi, cbx33 it is also midnight on a friday night is ZA
[12:25] <cbx33> I'm still waiting for my server to be booted so i can get my mail
[12:25] <crimsun> a couple of my students are like that, too, having scrambled at the last minute to complete their theses
[12:25] <crimsun> poor things.
[12:35] <cbx33> crimsun, when i did mine it was all done in plenty of time :D
[12:36] <crimsun> cbx33: yes, if only everyone were as diligent
[12:37] <cbx33> hah
[12:37] <cbx33> :p
[12:37] <cbx33> how arey ou
[12:39] <crimsun> not bad, tired, busy, etc. Yourself?
[12:42] <cbx33> much the same :p
[03:46] <HedgeMage> Anyone about?  I could use an opinion regarding my "installation" chapter: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/StandAloneInstallation
[03:47] <HedgeMage> I am considering splitting off "What Now?" into its own chapter when it's finished.
[03:53] <crimsun> are you soliciting layout comments or content?
[03:53] <HedgeMage> It's quite long, and the screen shots aren't in yet
[03:53] <HedgeMage> content.  layout isn't done
[03:53] <HedgeMage> content is almost done
[03:53] <HedgeMage> still tweaking, catching typos
[03:54] <crimsun> k. In the installing section, I would say "type of computer (architecture)"
[03:55] <HedgeMage> I know some of the step titles seem odd, but I made a point to use the title at the top of the installer screen during each step to cut down on confusion
[03:55] <crimsun> Pres -> Press and hold <Del> ...
[03:56] <crimsun> Pressing the botton(s) when asked will give   (removing 'for')
[03:59] <crimsun> In the select keyboard section, "If it is correct, just press Enter" is probably more persuasive
[03:59] <HedgeMage> good catches, thanks!
[03:59] <crimsun> In Configuring the network, "end of the install"
[04:01] <crimsun> In set up users.., I would double-quote "sudo" just so the distinction is more apparent
[04:03] <crimsun> In What Now?, "update when Edubuntu reminds you to"  (removing 'daily', since it's probably a bit more detail than necessary)
[04:03] <crimsun> otherwise, looks good, flows well
[05:40] <jsgotangco> hi guys!
[05:40] <HedgeMage> hi jsgotangco
[05:41] <jsgotangco> HedgeMage: good morning
[05:42] <HedgeMage> night here, but good all the same :D
[06:57] <HedgeMage> hi hierophant :D
[06:57] <hierophant> hiya
[06:57] <HedgeMage> Anybody else awake in here, or is it just us?
[06:58] <HedgeMage> hierophant: I thought you might like to help proof the documentation I'm working on for the standalone Edubuntu installation.
[06:58] <HedgeMage> Try it and tell me where my instructions need improvement
[06:58] <hierophant> ok
[06:59] <HedgeMage> Let me grab you a link
[06:59] <HedgeMage> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/StandAloneInstallation
[06:59] <HedgeMage> That's the draft I'm working on
[06:59] <HedgeMage> I still need to add screenshots and finish the "What Now?" section at the end.
[07:00] <HedgeMage> but, other than formatting and "what now?" it's done
[07:00] <HedgeMage> I think
[07:00] <HedgeMage> let me know what YOU think :)
[07:00] <HedgeMage> It would be a *huge* help.
[07:01] <hierophant> Umm my computer to boot from the disk you press f11
[07:01] <HedgeMage> BTW, welcome to Edubuntu :D
[07:01] <hierophant> ty
[07:03] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: I'm awake :-)
[07:03] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: hey there
[07:03] <HedgeMage> hierophant is new to Linux but he's going to help us out with some of the edubuntu cookbook stuff :)
[07:04] <HedgeMage> checking and proofing and stuff
[07:04] <HedgeMage> and making sure I didn't randomly assume somewhere that the user knows where their Xorg config is or how to use CLI emacs or something crazy like that.
[07:05] <LaserJock> hehe, that is always go to do
[07:05] <LaserJock> cbx33 did that for the Ubuntu Packaging Guide for me
[07:05] <hierophant> hedgemage what if im using a home network that uses <IP_ADDRESS> do i type that in for my net config
[07:05] <hierophant> or is that in another step
[07:07] <HedgeMage> hierophant: You *probably* have DHCP so it'll do it for you automagically
[07:08] <HedgeMage> the other stuff is just in case of emergencies :)
[07:08] <hierophant> but it didnt do it automatically when i tried breezy
[07:08] <hierophant> regular ubuntu
[07:09] <hierophant> so what do i do with the <IP_ADDRESS>
[07:09] <HedgeMage> well, then why not look in your current windows config before you re-format and write down the settings?
[07:10] <HedgeMage> if it dies trying to auto-config, you will need: your IP, the gateway, the netmask, and a nameserver
[07:10] <hierophant> where do i find those settings?
[07:11] <HedgeMage> umm... under networking in the control panel, then right-click the connection and pick properties I think
[08:55] <LaserJock> hi highvoltage and MeerKatje
[08:55] <MeerKatje> hi Laserock :)
[08:55] <MeerKatje> Jock even, hehe
[08:56] <LaserJock> heh, I rock too ;-)
[08:56] <MeerKatje> yeah ... LaserRock, I know
[08:56] <MeerKatje> :P
[08:57] <LaserJock> hmm, I think I like LaserJock better
[08:57] <LaserJock> Rock sounds slow, and thick headed :-)
[08:57] <MeerKatje> :) true...
[08:58] <MeerKatje> Are you also in SA LaserJock?
[08:58] <LaserJock> no, I'm in Nevada, USA
[08:59] <LaserJock> kind of the opposite side of the world
[08:59] <MeerKatje> ahhh...I visited Chicago about ten years ago...it had a massive blizzard at the time (if that was what it was called)
[08:59] <MeerKatje> we could not land for almost 30 min
[08:59] <MeerKatje> quite scary :)
[08:59] <LaserJock> sounds typical
[09:00] <LaserJock> Chicago gets lots of wind and snow
[09:00] <MeerKatje> was my first white Christmas
[09:00] <MeerKatje> amazing time
[09:00] <LaserJock> lol
[09:00] <LaserJock> I grew up in Montana, which borders Canada. I grew up with long winters. I moved south to try to warm up
[09:00] <LaserJock> I've never seen a Christmas that wasn't white
[09:00] <MeerKatje> Did it work?
[09:01] <MeerKatje> hehe
[09:01] <LaserJock> it is a bit warmer here, but still plenty of snow in the winter
[09:01] <crimsun> you've not moved close enough to the equator, then
[09:01] <MeerKatje> ohhh, you should come and have a Christmas at the beach in SA!
[09:01] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if I could handle that
[09:01] <crimsun> granted I spent some time in Madison, WI and Rochester, MN, so I know white winters
[09:02] <LaserJock> crimsun: UW and Oakland?
[09:02] <MeerKatje> you will love it, I am sure...  we even have Santa in shorts
[09:02] <MeerKatje> lol
[09:03] <crimsun> LaserJock: UW and IBM
[09:03] <LaserJock> crimsun: ah
[09:05] <jsgotangco> lol
[09:11] <MeerKatje> so where do I start if I want to contribute to the development of ubuntu in a smalllll way?
[09:12] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: testing and bug reporting is always great
[09:13] <MeerKatje> ok, so I download edubuntu?
[09:13] <crimsun> that would be a good start
[09:13] <crimsun> also, see the bottom section ("Contribute") of http://www.ubuntu.com/community
[09:14] <crimsun> likewise, see the "Getting involved" section of http://www.edubuntu.com/community
[09:14] <MeerKatje> there now ;)
[09:14] <MeerKatje> thanks
[09:16] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: do you know what edubuntu iso to download?
[09:18] <MeerKatje> lol
[09:18] <MeerKatje> I was just returning here to check
[09:19] <MeerKatje> I think I may seriously lack the skill to participate in this exercise
[09:19] <crimsun> try http://releases.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dapper/
[09:19] <MeerKatje> maybe I should stck to community work
[09:19] <MeerKatje> :)
[09:19] <crimsun> if you're not sure, try the live cd version for your system type (architecture)
[09:20] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: don't worry, you have to start somewhere. :-)
[09:21] <MeerKatje> I think I should keep a blog of this process...
[09:21] <MeerKatje>  could also be a nice history of my IT evolution
[09:21] <MeerKatje> and education
[09:21] <LaserJock> sure
[09:21] <LaserJock> one thing that we always need is user feedback
[09:22] <MeerKatje> i can be a user
[09:22] <MeerKatje> sounds easy enuff
[09:22] <MeerKatje> especially if we are heading in the linux direction with our projects
[09:22] <MeerKatje> it would make sense that we have used it ;)
[09:23] <LaserJock> heh
[09:23] <MeerKatje> so I get DapperDrake?
[09:24] <hierophant> welcome jinty
[09:24] <MeerKatje>  think I am going to install it on a separate desktop though
[09:26] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: yes, dapper is what you want. If you want to just play around you can use the LiveCD
[09:26] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: or Desktop CD, it might be called now.
[09:26] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: that will run in RAM and won't touch your hard drive until you tell it to :-)
[09:29] <MeerKatje> it is a massive file :) downloading
[09:29] <MeerKatje> you have been very helpful
[09:29] <MeerKatje> once I have it, I will see what it does
[09:29] <MeerKatje> lol
[09:30] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: have you used Linux before
[09:32] <MeerKatje> just OpenOffice
[09:32] <MeerKatje> does that count?
[09:33] <MeerKatje> *blush*
[09:35] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: kind of, it will at least be familiar ;-)
[09:35] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: do you know how to burn a .iso image to a CD ?
[09:36] <MeerKatje> hehe
[09:37] <MeerKatje> I believe it cannot be too difficult.
[09:37] <MeerKatje> like music...rip it?
[09:37] <MeerKatje> or save it?
[09:37] <MeerKatje> or follow instructions on the screen...lol
[09:37] <LaserJock> it is actually a bit different. do you have Nero?
[09:38] <MeerKatje> no
[09:38] <MeerKatje> should get it?
[09:38] <pygi> MeerKatje, do you have Gnomebaker?
[09:39] <pygi> Its quite easy :)
[09:39] <LaserJock> pygi: Gnomebacker for Windows?
[09:39] <LaserJock> Gnomebaker, I mean
[09:39] <pygi> LaserJock, argh :P
[09:40] <pygi> hi cbx33
[09:40] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BurningIsoHowto has info on how to burn the .iso file you are downloading
[09:41] <LaserJock> hi cbx33
[09:41] <MeerKatje> so, Nero or Gnomemaker?
[09:41] <MeerKatje> yes, I saw it there LaserJock
[09:41] <pygi> MeerKatje, there is no gnomebaker on windows
[09:41] <LaserJock> Nero isn't free I don't think and Gnomebaker is on Linux
[09:41] <MeerKatje> lol GnomeBaker
[09:42] <pygi> LaserJock, there are free burnin apps on Win
[09:42] <MeerKatje> or dear my typos
[09:42] <LaserJock> MeerKatje: I use the app that is on that wiki page and it works well
[09:42] <MeerKatje> ok, will try that
[09:42] <LaserJock> ok, I'm off to bed 12:42 am here
[09:42] <LaserJock> good luck MeerKatje
[09:42] <MeerKatje> thank you so much for your help LaserJock
[09:42] <MeerKatje> will do some homework
[09:42] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: sleep is for the weak!
[09:43] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: or the smart, or the people who have inlaws in for a visit ;-)
[09:43] <jsgotangco> lol
[09:44] <cbx33> hi pygi LaserJock jsgotangco
[09:44] <jsgotangco> hi
[09:44] <cbx33> anyone know of a DVD authoring pacage for linux
[09:45] <HedgeMage> finally it's alive in here
[09:45] <HedgeMage> hey, hierophant, come here and get introduced.
[09:45] <hierophant> hi im hierophant
[09:45] <hierophant> =)
[09:46] <HedgeMage> hierophant is a new user interested in Edubuntu... he's going to help test my install doc :)
[09:47] <cbx33> nice one hierophant
[09:47] <hierophant> =)
[09:49] <HedgeMage> BTW, can you folks please look at
[09:49] <HedgeMage> grr
[09:49] <HedgeMage> darn paste is messed up, hold on
[09:49] <HedgeMage>  https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters/StandAloneInstallation
[09:49] <HedgeMage> there we go
[09:49] <HedgeMage> the install part is done (just needs formatting and screen shots)
[09:50] <HedgeMage> I started adding a "what now?" section at the bottom for post-install / getting to know your system stuff
[09:50] <HedgeMage> however, I think it's going to get long and I want all of your opinions on splitting it off into its own chapter
[09:50] <hierophant> hedgemage
[09:50] <hierophant> would you like screen shots when i do install?
[09:51] <HedgeMage> hierophant: unless you know how to set up a virtual machine, you can't effectively screen capture during the install
[09:51] <HedgeMage> hierophant: one of the other documentation volunteers has some I'm going to borrow
[09:51] <hierophant> oh ok
[09:51] <hierophant> i was just gonna use my camera =p
[09:52] <crimsun> HedgeMage: in "You are now ready to install..", it should be "Your computer will load some tools it needs" instead  of "Your computter .."
[09:52] <cbx33> HedgeMage, heheh
[09:52] <HedgeMage> crimsun: thanks
[09:53] <HedgeMage> Laser_away: or cbx33 or someone caught about five typos earlier, I have 'em marked off on my paper copy but haven't fixed 'em yet
[09:53] <crimsun> HedgeMage: and I do agree with the idea that What Now would be better as a separate page
[09:53] <HedgeMage> I am frantically cleaning because I just found out hubby's boss is coming over at 2 or 3 am to drop some stuff off
[09:53] <MeerKatje> bbl
[09:53] <crimsun> one thing we've learned as wiki documenters is that shorter pages are better
[09:54] <cbx33> HedgeMage, wans't me but I will check it later fo you :p
[09:54] <HedgeMage> cbx33: cool, thanks
[09:54] <HedgeMage> crimsun: that's what I was thinking, just wanted other eyes on it :D
[09:55] <HedgeMage> note: most of this was written in pre-dawn hours so I am afraid of having missed tons of typos... proofreading will be met with much gratitude :D
[09:58] <HedgeMage> I still can't believe the section on booting a CD is so long, but I kept picturing frustrated users giving up because they don't know how to boot a CD
[10:01] <HedgeMage> oops
[10:01] <HedgeMage> no one saw that :P
[10:02] <pygi> HedgeMage, :P
[10:02] <HedgeMage> hi pygi !
[10:02] <HedgeMage> Practiced guitar today
[10:02] <HedgeMage> :D
[10:02] <pygi> nice :)
[10:02] <hierophant> wheres your hubby
[10:03] <HedgeMage> He's on an exercise with his unit (he is in the US Army)
[10:03] <HedgeMage> He'll be back in a little over a week
[10:03] <HedgeMage> I hate when he's gone a long time, but a week now and again is nice... I get caught up on tons of stuff
[10:03] <HedgeMage> :D
[10:07] <HedgeMage> and he's less stressed when he's been in the field (he has a different boss in the field than in garrison, and the garrison one is a PITA)
[10:08] <hierophant> Whats with all the abbreviations
[10:10] <HedgeMage> which ones?
[10:10] <HedgeMage> feel free to ask, I'm a lazy typist and use shortcuts without noticing
[10:14] <hierophant> hedgemage are you getting my pms or not?
[10:14] <HedgeMage> yep I just stopped to clean some more
[10:14] <HedgeMage> told you I'd be in and out :)
[10:28] <cbx33> HedgeMage, what guitar do you have?
[10:28] <pygi> cbx33, classical one
[10:28] <HedgeMage> no, not classical
[10:28] <HedgeMage> acoustic but not nylon stringed
[10:28] <pygi> ugh? you told that one :P
[10:29] <HedgeMage> don't think so
[10:29] <HedgeMage> trelane's the one with acoustical
[10:29] <HedgeMage> with classical
[10:29] <HedgeMage> sheesh my brain is melting
[10:35] <cbx33> hehe
[10:35] <cbx33> i love my Aria AW-50
[10:41] <HedgeMage> what's that
[10:41] <HedgeMage> ?
[10:50] <cbx33> guitar
[10:56] <HedgeMage> :) cool
[10:56] <HedgeMage> probably way out of my price range, though
[11:00] <cbx33> cost me 90
[11:00] <cbx33> i think
[11:01] <HedgeMage> yep, about double my price range
[11:01] <HedgeMage> I bought mine for $70 with a book I don't like very much
[11:01] <pygi> books for playing guitar are bad :P
[11:01] <pygi> argh, my guitar costs much more :-/
[11:01] <HedgeMage> can't afford lessons right now
[11:01] <cbx33> hehe
[11:01] <HedgeMage> I just wanted something fun to do with TT that is more portable than piano
[11:01] <HedgeMage> :P
[11:02] <cbx33> you don;t need lessons
[11:02] <cbx33> :p
[11:02] <pygi> cbx33, indeed :)
[11:02] <HedgeMage> What I need is two lessons to help with my fingering issues.  Then I'm golden
[11:02] <cbx33> HedgeMage, I've never had lessons, it's just practice
[11:02] <HedgeMage> I have a long and serious musical background, so it's only finger position / muscle memory I'm having trouble with
[11:02] <HedgeMage> I can name chords, transpose, read music, etc as second nature
[11:04] <cbx33> nice :p
[11:05] <HedgeMage> yep
[11:05] <HedgeMage> took college-level music theory in high school
[11:05] <HedgeMage> (was in a choir, an ensemble, and taking private lessons as well)
[11:08] <cbx33> anyone know of a nice VPS hosting solution
[11:08] <lucasvo> cbx33: hosteurope.de
[11:09] <HedgeMage> cbx33: I have shared hosting, but they're very good and pretty cheap :)
[11:09] <lucasvo> cbx33: 10000gb, unlimited transfer, 10EUR/month, 128mb ram
[11:09] <HedgeMage> VPS is outside my budget.
[11:09] <lucasvo> cbx33: but I have shared hosting as well
[11:09] <lucasvo> cbx33: -> www.wservices.ch
[11:09] <cbx33> lucasvo, how is their tech support
[11:09] <lucasvo> full functional linux
[11:09] <cbx33> i need a server with root access and cpanel
[11:09] <lucasvo> I am chatting gon their server
[11:10] <lucasvo> oh, they can't give you that
[11:10] <lucasvo> in that case I would go to hosteurope.de
[11:29] <cbx33> hey Yagisan
[11:30] <Yagisan> G'day cbx33
[11:32] <Yagisan> how are you today cbx33 ?
[11:33] <cbx33> yeh I'm good
[11:33] <cbx33> looking for better hosting at the mo
[11:33] <cbx33> took 15 hours for them to restart mine
[11:33] <cbx33> know of any good vps's with root access and cpanel
[11:33] <Yagisan> cbx33: ouch. no - that's why mine is selfhosted :(
[11:33] <cbx33> heh
[11:34] <Yagisan> cbx33: so plone hosting is a no-go ?
[11:34] <cbx33> well not at the mo, we're all used to cpanel here
[11:35] <cbx33> :p
[11:35] <HedgeMage> cbx33: let me see if my host offers VPS
[11:35] <cbx33> thanks HedgeMage
[11:35] <cbx33> are you dedicated?
[11:35] <pygi> mornin andrea
[11:35] <HedgeMage> I didn't ask since someone bought me my shared hosting account and I'm pretty happy
[11:35] <cbx33> I have about $60 a month maximum
[11:35] <HedgeMage> nope, shared... dedicated is way too much money
[11:35] <HedgeMage> I have like $10/month max :P
[11:35] <cbx33> vps is a nice half way house
[11:35] <cbx33> well i run a web design business with my wife
[11:35] <Bluekuja> hi pygi :)
[11:35] <cbx33> hi andrea
[11:36] <Bluekuja> hi cbx33 :)
[11:36] <Bluekuja> hi hedgemage
[11:36] <Bluekuja> how are you all?
[11:36] <Yagisan> G'dall All that I've yet to mention
[11:36] <pygi> great, thanks for asking :)
[11:36] <pygi> and you?
[11:36] <Yagisan> eh
[11:36] <Yagisan> G'day All
[11:37] <Bluekuja> well i come out from the bed right now
[11:37] <Bluekuja> ^^
[11:37] <HedgeMage> hi Bluekuja
[11:37] <HedgeMage> I'm good
[11:37] <Bluekuja> i went to sleep really late
[11:37] <cbx33> HedgeMage, what company are they that you use?
[11:38] <HedgeMage> cbx33: there's a waiting list for VPS hosting right now (don't know how long, I could email them and ask)
[11:38] <HedgeMage> dreamhost.com
[11:39] <cbx33> ahh ok
[11:39] <cbx33> np
[11:39] <cbx33> i need one soon
[11:39] <HedgeMage> if you sign up let me know and I'll make you a promo code for a discount... but as I said there's a waiting list for VPS, they're referring VPS servers to hosting.com until the waiting list is sorted.
[12:52] <cbx33> think I'm going with liquidweb :D
[12:52] <cbx33> they seem good and are on cpanel's website as a reseller :D
[12:52] <cbx33> all reviews seem good
[12:53] <jsgotangco> what's up
[12:53] <cbx33> fed up with hosting after it took 22 hours to get my server rebooted
[12:54] <cbx33> and it was down for all of that time
[12:54] <cbx33> thanks for the post btw
[12:54] <cbx33> as my email has been out, any replies?
[12:56] <jsgotangco> dunno haven't checked my email yet
[12:58] <cbx33> hehe
[01:02] <lucasvo> cbx33: what is cpanel?
[01:02] <lucasvo> something like confix?
[01:02] <cbx33> i would think so
[01:04] <jsgotangco> its supposed to give you control of your webspace/server from the browser
[01:04] <cbx33> yes
[01:04] <jsgotangco> like create email, dns, new mysql db, etc.
[01:04] <cbx33> which it does very nicely
[01:04] <cbx33> yes
[01:07] <lucasvo> jsgotangco: and it's free?
[01:07] <lucasvo> is there a demo?
[01:07] <jsgotangco> no its proprietary
[01:08] <cbx33> no you have to apy for it
[01:08] <cbx33> but it is damn good
[01:08] <lucasvo> too bad webmin isn't a good alternative
[01:09] <cbx33> yeh
[01:09] <lucasvo> it's crap :(
[01:09] <cbx33> there are so many free ones I'vel ooked at
[01:09] <cbx33> vhcs
[01:09] <cbx33> but they all sux
[01:09] <lucasvo> I like plesk
[01:39] <cbx33> hey highvoltage
[01:39] <cbx33> I'm starting on the wiki front page
[01:40] <cbx33> mockup
[01:40] <highvoltage> cbx33: excellent, i'll be mostly away for the next few days, flying to jo'burg tomorrow for linuxworld
[01:41] <cbx33> ahhh excellent
[01:41] <cbx33> let me know how it goes
[01:42] <cbx33> highvoltage, I've been taking some of the wording for the front page from the ESA
[01:42] <cbx33> I was wondering a few things though
[01:43] <cbx33> do you think we can get someone to do meeting notes again
[01:43] <cbx33> I think that would be really useful
[01:43] <cbx33> should we move planning to a seperate page?
[01:44] <highvoltage> hmmm...  i thought JaneW does meeting notes?
[01:44] <highvoltage> perhaps not anymore
[01:46] <cbx33> no, it seems to ahve stopped, I know she's super busy
[01:47] <cbx33> but if I were to miss a meeting I'd like to go check out a quick overview
[01:47] <cbx33> i mean our meetings are not that complicated :D - and were all pretty agreeable
[01:48] <pygi> hi spacey
[01:52] <cbx33> highvoltage, what about the plannin side of things, I don;t personally think we should clutter the homepage with that
[01:54] <highvoltage> cbx33: yep, i agree with you there
[01:54] <highvoltage> there used to be a meetings wiki page
[01:54] <highvoltage> perhaps we can just keep it there
[01:55] <highvoltage> and have a link to the meetings page on the community page
[01:56] <jsgotangco> hey highvoltage
[01:56] <highvoltage> hey jsgotangco
[01:56] <jsgotangco> how's things?
[01:57] <highvoltage> hectic, but in a good way :)
[01:57] <jsgotangco> good to hear
[01:57] <jsgotangco> are you going to paris?
[01:57] <highvoltage> lots of things happening, i can't keep up but i'm not complaining, i prefer it this way than thing being too quiet.
[01:57] <highvoltage> i applied for sponsorship, i guess we'll have to see what happens.
[01:58] <jsgotangco> same here although i am not optimistic
[01:58] <highvoltage> i tend to be optimistic, but i'm fine if i can't go either.
[01:59] <jsgotangco> yep
[02:00] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: you have anything ubuntu'ish planned short-term?
[02:01] <jsgotangco> what do you mean? I have an article coming out on free software magazine by the next issue (probably june) on gnupg and thunderbird
[02:01] <jsgotangco> at the moment, i am writing about package management systems but for a local magazine
[02:02] <jsgotangco> im supposed to go to a conference down south here on june as well they invited me to do a tlalk
[02:02] <jsgotangco> (a linuxworld event as well)
[02:03] <jsgotangco> it is pretty amazing i still manage to have a day job that is completely not foss related
[02:04] <highvoltage> sorry, that was a bit vague. i meant in terms of other open-source events / and genereal stuff. so your answer is in line with my question :)
[02:04] <jsgotangco> even if i dont get sponsored, i still get to be on a plane in june and paid by another ogranizer lol
[02:19] <cbx33> hehe
[02:19] <cbx33> ok highvoltage will do
[03:29] <pygi> hi ogra
[03:30] <alfredn> Hello, My screen refresh seems a bit slow should I enable something in the lts.conf?  Thanks
[03:33] <cbx33> alfredn, just in general, or when you are running a particular application?
[03:33] <alfredn> in general just started using the client been using
[03:33] <alfredn> the server and it was quick.  The client
[03:33] <alfredn> has a decent card too.
[03:34] <cbx33> what's the network connection like between the two
[03:34] <alfredn> The speed is 100 and I used this same physical setup for another LTSP install using Fedora it seemed okay then but maybe that is it
[03:35] <alfredn> could it be glx
[03:47] <alfredn> It reminds me of running vnc over an okay not great connection.  Should I add something to the lts.conf
[04:07] <cbx33> hmmm
[04:07] <cbx33> not sure
[04:07] <cbx33> ask ogra if he is around, my setups have all been ok
[04:10] <alfredn> thanks cbx33 no rush on my end.  I do hope to set this up at a library near by so far K12ltsp has done them well on Fedora but want to get ubuntu in there
[04:10] <pygi> argh, I forgot my GPG key :-/
[04:27] <cbx33> yeh, ubuntu is way better IMHO
[05:19] <ogra> alfredn, you can try adding things like X_HORZSYNC and X_VERTREFRESH and also check that the client is not using the vesa driver
[05:20] <ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuLtsConfParams has a list with possible values for breezy, dapper has more features that are not all documented yet
[05:20] <alfredn> I will check but
[05:20] <alfredn> now that there is no ltsinfo --cfg=ALL -h wsXXX how do I check
[05:20] <ogra> i.e. if you use dapper i'd use X_COLOR_DEPTH=16 that speeds up a lot
[05:21] <ogra> easiest is to temporary enable a root password in the client chroot and just locg in on console on the client
[05:22] <ogra> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 passwd
[05:22] <ogra> ^^^^^^^ enabels the root pw
[05:22] <ogra> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 passwd -l
[05:22] <ogra> ^^^^^^^ locks the root pw
[05:33] <alfredn> Pretty neat what that can do. So it is not using vesa, it is not a great card but should do fine ATI Rage 128 AGP 8 megs ram
[05:33] <alfredn> the machine it self is 233 PII with 64 megs of ram.
[06:01] <cbx33> ogra, i never knew those pages were there
[06:01] <cbx33> can't wait to get he ltsp wiki page done
[06:01] <cbx33> will start that later I think
[06:03] <ogra> i wanted to work on a example lts.conf with all possible values in it and some explanatory text if i find time before release
[06:03] <ogra> thats better than a plain wikipage imho
[06:03] <ogra> (indeed we can have a wikipage additionally)
[06:04] <ogra> also the breezy versiomn of that page should persist, we should probably have breezy and dapper subpages under EdubuntuLtsConfParams
[06:11] <cbx33> oh yeh, of course
[06:11] <cbx33> I was talking about the ltsp homepage we discussed
[06:11] <ogra> ah
[06:11] <cbx33> to bring all the documentation together
[06:12] <ogra> yep, it will also show the weaknesses where we should jump on with LTSPManager
[06:12] <cbx33> indeed
[06:12] <cbx33> LTSPManager is going to rock
[06:12] <ogra> i.e. upgrading the chroot should become easier
[06:12] <ogra> or setting a rootpw by gui
[06:13] <cbx33> edgy is going to rock
[06:14] <juliux> cbx33, edgy is fun ;)
[06:14] <cbx33> heheh
[06:22] <alfredn> I am going to reboot and try the X_COLOR_DEPTH=16 be back soon, ps it was nice to see the updates to the edubuntu site
[06:24] <pygi> ogra: around ?
[06:25] <ogra> pygi, yes, but i wont do any work related stuff, its saturday
[06:25] <pygi> its not work related stuff, no worries :)
[06:25] <pygi> str: The signed text does not match the Code of Conduct. Make sure that you signed the correct text (white space differences are acceptable).
[06:25] <pygi> Launchpad isnt too well :P
[06:26] <ogra> did you ask #launchpad ?
[06:26] <pygi> and I am sure it should work :-/
[06:26] <pygi> was going to...
[06:26] <ogra> i signed my CoC way before LP was online
[06:27] <pygi> oki, sorry for bothering :)
[06:27] <cbx33> pygi,
[06:27] <cbx33> that's a VERY well known bug
[06:27] <pygi> argh, and why is that happening? :-/
[06:28] <cbx33> i think i submitted the first since then I know there have been at least 4 duplicates
[06:28] <cbx33> sign the old version
[06:29] <cbx33> that one works
[06:31] <pygi> cbx33, thanks
[06:31] <pygi> ogra: there, I signed the CoC :P
[06:31] <ogra> cool :)
[06:32] <pygi> altought I dont see the big deal with it, but heh :)
[06:35] <cbx33> ogra, on the wiki homepage
[06:35] <cbx33> what is the development status at the bottom supposed to show?
[06:36] <cbx33> is it just historical now?
[06:36] <ogra> yep
[06:36] <cbx33> so I can vamoosh it?
[06:36] <cbx33> I want to replace it with something detailing the status and development....it's nice to show we are working on something :p
[06:36] <cbx33> but I'll take it out for now
[06:36] <ogra> lets discuss it in the next meeting, probably people want to keep somewhere it for historical reasons
[06:37] <cbx33> oh yeh
[06:37] <cbx33> I'm just editing a mock page at the moment
[06:37] <cbx33> I'm not deleting anything :p
[06:37] <ogra> we had company performance reviews last week
[06:37] <ogra> and i know mdz wants us to do something like a status newsletter
[06:37] <ogra> so we could merge that in there in the future
[06:38] <cbx33> definitely
[06:38] <ogra> or better have a news subsection where they can reside on the drupal site
[06:38] <cbx33> that could also link in with the meeting notes we were talking about earlier
[06:38] <cbx33> I think that's a fantastic idea
[06:38] <cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuWikiMock
[06:38] <ogra> i'm not really a fan of wikis if it comes to do more than documenting on them
[06:39] <cbx33> that's it in progress
[06:39] <cbx33> ogra, I agree
[06:39] <cbx33> some sections hav not been worked yet at all
[06:39] <ogra> in MOTU we had pages for package transitions with 500 line tables ... imagine you need to edit that :)
[06:39] <cbx33> but I've edited some with invisible tables to help the layout and spac a little
[06:39] <cbx33> heh
[06:39] <ogra> s/line/row/
[06:40] <cbx33> sheesh
[06:40] <ogra> that gets really hard if you discover that firefox has no search option for text input fields
[06:40] <cbx33> I presume this wiki page will take over once dapper is released
[06:40] <cbx33> ogra, I feel your pain have done that before
[06:40] <ogra> and the whole table is in a big text input form field :)
[06:41] <cbx33> copy paste to gedit, copy paste back :p
[06:41] <cbx33> hi LaserJock
[06:41] <cbx33> can i get your view on the few changes I've made to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuWikiMock
[06:43] <LaserJock> hi cbx33
[06:48] <LaserJock> cbx33: looks nice
[06:49] <cbx33> :)
[06:50] <LaserJock> although I notice that you tend to do some "Hopefully soon ..." we need to be more concrete
[06:50] <LaserJock> people don't often want to read what we hope to do but rather what we *are* doing ;-)
[06:50] <ogra> yes, shipit is definite
[06:51] <cbx33> oooh nice :D
[06:51] <cbx33> ok will do
[06:51] <ogra> css mockup -> http://shipit-edubuntu.async.com.br/
[06:58] <pygi> ogra, argh, isnt that just too red? :-/
[06:59] <LaserJock> can anything Edubuntu be too red? :-)
[06:59] <pygi> :-P
[06:59] <Amaranth> thin white text on dark red == oww, my eyes!
[07:01] <ogra> its based on our wiki theme we use since breezy
[07:01] <lucasvo> the wikitheme is good!
[07:01] <ogra> nobody ever complained about that one
[07:02] <Amaranth> ogra: i never saw it :P
[07:03] <ogra> wiki.edubuntu.org should show it out of the box, unless you set something different in your user settings
[07:10] <pygi> sivang, poke :)
[07:14] <cbx33> ogra, http://shipit-edubuntu.async.com.br/ doesn't seem to load in konqueror here
[07:14] <ogra> its only a first mockup
[07:14] <cbx33> hehe :p
[07:15] <cbx33> ok, just thought I'd mention it
[07:15] <ogra> dont expect it to be usable :)
[07:15] <cbx33> oh what....
[07:16] <cbx33> off to a barbeque now
[07:16] <cbx33> see y'all later
[07:31] <pygi> bye
[08:18] <alfredn> bye
[08:23] <LaserJock> hmm http://live.gnome.org/EducationSuite seems nice
[08:25] <ogra> LaserJock, thats Burgundavia's work afaik
[08:27] <LaserJock> yeah, I see his hands were on it last ;-)
[08:28] <LaserJock> it's to bad we have to promote apps to main to get them on the CD
[08:30] <LaserJock> I think stellarium would be a nice apps to have for astronomy
[08:30] <ogra> its not only promotion
[08:30] <ogra> the CD size is the far worse problem
[08:31] <LaserJock> but perhaps getting rid of the KDE stuff would help
[08:32] <LaserJock> that is what I was thinking with stellarium
[08:32] <ogra> i never really measured how much dropping kde will actually gain us
[08:33] <ogra> the first edgy CDs will drop it to see the real gain ...
[08:34] <LaserJock> could germinate give a quick idea?
[08:34] <ogra> yep
[08:34] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: the EducationSuite needs a coder and me, to do some advocacy
[08:35] <LaserJock> it would be nice to set down categories of software and then list all the apps we have for each category
[08:36] <LaserJock> I can think of several science apps that could be used for educational purposes
[08:41] <Thug-N-Me> whats Edubuntu ?
[08:41] <Thug-N-Me> what desktop manager does Edubuntu use ?
[08:43] <LaserJock> Thug-N-Me: it is an Ubuntu derivative designed for educational settings (schools) and kids
[08:43] <Thug-N-Me> ohh i see
[08:44] <LaserJock> Thug-N-Me: and it uses Gnome
[08:44] <Thug-N-Me> is 5.10 dapper ?
[08:44] <pygi> nop. 6.06 is dapper
[08:45] <Thug-N-Me> hmm and why in the main page when i click the download link it starts 5.10 ?
[08:45] <pygi> because dapper is not out yet?
[08:46] <Thug-N-Me> hmm i heard it is
[08:46] <pygi> you heard wrong
[08:46] <pygi> there is only beta out
[08:46] <Thug-N-Me> when it will be ?
[08:47] <LaserJock> June 1
[08:47] <pygi> 1 day, next month
[08:47] <Thug-N-Me> ok
[08:47] <Thug-N-Me> thanks you guys
[08:49] <LaserJock> Thug-N-Me: no problem
[11:46] <cbx33> hey bluekuja_
[11:48] <pygi> hey cbx33
[11:50] <HedgeMage> What's up with Cookbook?  It seems that only a couple of us have any chapters up... :(
[11:50] <pygi> HedgeMage, I havent seen no one uploading anything :(
[11:52] <HedgeMage> :(
[11:56] <bluekuja_> oi pete
[11:56] <bluekuja_> :)
[11:56] <cbx33> hey pygi Bluekuja HedgeMage
[11:56] <pygi> hi Bluekuja
[11:56] <cbx33> HedgeMage, what chapters do you need
[11:56] <Bluekuja> hi pygi
[11:57] <pygi> spacey, oke
[11:57] <pygi> poke*
[11:57] <HedgeMage> cbx33: don't need any in particular, was just wondering about general progress.
[11:57] <cbx33> if you're desperate I can see what I can throw together if you're tight on a deadline
[11:57] <HedgeMage> Actually, that's about what I was thinking... finishing out the last tidbits of my stuff today and then having a go at other chapters.
[11:58] <cbx33> HedgeMage, do you have a wiki for planning the doc
[11:58] <cbx33> ?
[11:58] <pygi> cbx33, we are tight on deadline indeed :-/
[11:58] <pygi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu/Worksheet
[11:59] <HedgeMage> cbx33: nope, just working locally then pasting to the edubuntu wiki
[11:59] <cbx33> bbiab...i may be able to help you out
[11:59] <HedgeMage> oh my that looked strange
[11:59] <HedgeMage> brb
[11:59] <pygi> cbx33, with what chapters ?
[11:59] <pygi> (just ignore mines, considering that is done already, just not uploaded)
[12:00] <HedgeMage> back
[12:00] <HedgeMage> pygi: cool
[12:01] <HedgeMage> uploading soon?
[12:03] <pygi> HedgeMage, not sure :-/


[15:24] <newz2000> quiet room lately
[15:24] <newz2000> I went to a drupal training seminar last week and learned a lot
[15:25] <newz2000> Canonical hired the person who is in charge of visual appearance (cf: mark's blog post about making Ubuntu prettier than OS X)
[15:25] <newz2000> if you were at UDS you may have met him, his name is Julian (Hubbard may be his last name)
[15:25] <nand> I were at his presentation (like everyone else), *sounds* promising
[15:26] <nand> now I'm looking at the actual results
[15:26] <newz2000> cool, I've hardly spoken with him so I'm eager to see action
[15:26] <newz2000> there's a job post for my team for a web *designer* http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_WD/
[15:26] <nand> I have always been a bit skeptical on designers speaking a lot too much :)
[15:26] <newz2000> in London though :-/
[15:27] <nand> designer I am not at all!
[15:27] <newz2000> nand: the difference between Julian and most designers is that he's been given authority by Mark S
[15:27] <nand> that is why I'm now eagerly waiting for the results :)
[15:28] <newz2000> We released the module for launchpad auth in drupal
[15:28] <newz2000> (for Drupal 5, not ready for D6)
[15:28] <newz2000> that was last monday
[15:28] <nand> yep, I have hacked it and submitted patches for a migration process
[15:28] <nand> that, we really need
[15:29] <nand> on the other side, the team plugin seems a bit broken, hadn't had the time to debug it yet
[15:29] <nand> got locked out of my admin rights as soon as I activated it ^_^
[15:29] <newz2000> oh? Interesting
[15:29] <newz2000> I've been using it on two sites very nicely, but just yesterday I too got locked out.
[15:29] <nand> My guess is it just erases roles, not merge them
[15:30] <newz2000> it does not modify the roles, yo uhave to map teams to roles
[15:30] <nand> temporary solution is to log in using user uid 1 or disable the module in DB
[15:30] <newz2000> oh, maybe not the same prob, I can't even log in as uid 1
[15:30] <nand> (not tested first solution, just a guess, used second solution :) )
[15:32] <newz2000> I do like the team/roles mapping a lot
[15:32] <nand> so will I!
[15:32] <nand> btw
[15:32] <nand> I heard you need to be marked on LP so that your website can receive these infos?
[15:33] <newz2000> if you file a bug in ubuntu-website I get it
[15:33] <newz2000> if it's outside of that project you may need to mark me
[15:33] <nand> ?
[15:33] <newz2000> (I'm also default for canonical-website)
[15:33] <newz2000> oh
[15:33] <newz2000> sorry, mis-understood your question
[15:34] <newz2000> do you mean you need group membership in launchpad?
[15:34] <nand> I mean, I heard that in order the team plugin to work, you need to register your website somewhere?
[15:34] <newz2000> oh. I thought that was not necessary now, but here's how to tell...
[15:34] <nand> I just heard that, not checked myself
[15:35] <newz2000> you try to login and the only data launchpad sends back is the openidurl. If lp tells you that it's sending your userid and/or email address that you're fine
[15:37] <nand> so far, I only get the login, not the email
[15:37] <newz2000> so it sends 'nand' back to the website or only the openid url?
[15:37] <nand> 'nand'
[15:38] <newz2000> then you're set I believe. Let me ask stuartm real quick.
[15:38] <nand> but ok, I know that you need to be registered somewhere to have mails too. The question is : do we need some similar case of registration for the LP teams plugin to work?
[15:39] <nand> boredandblogging: heya!
[15:40] <boredandblogging> nand: hey, how are you?
[15:40] <nand> still at work for now...
[15:41] <nand> just so that you can take time to critisize my quick mockup meanwhile : http://www.ndeschildre.net/downloads/UBnews.html
[15:41] <nand> newz2000: ^
[15:42] <nand> very quick one, with a few of the ideas I had
[15:42] <newz2000> ah, that was you
[15:42] <nand> please don't bite! :)
[15:42] <nand> me?
[15:43] <newz2000> btw, stuart says you need to register the site's "trustroot" which is in the docs.
[15:44] <nand> trustroot... okay, I'll see that
[15:44] <newz2000> so are we having our meeting now or are we doing it later?
[15:44]  * nand is still at work
[15:44] <newz2000> ok
[15:44] <nand> I'll much prefer having it once I'm back home
[15:45] <newz2000> sure, do you have a time in mind?
[15:45] <nand> 19 UTC, still okay?
[15:45] <boredandblogging> 19 UTC is fine with me
[15:45] <newz2000> sounds good to me
[15:45] <nand> good
[15:46] <newz2000> I need to make a trip to the passport office, apparently mine looks tampered with.
[15:46] <newz2000> it got wet.
[15:46] <newz2000> -$100
[15:46] <newz2000> :-(
[15:46] <boredandblogging> newz2000: did you have trouble with it when travelling?
[15:46] <newz2000> no, I was in the US so my driver's license worked
[15:47] <boredandblogging> right
[15:47] <newz2000> but I may have to go to London at the start of the year which will be a problem.
[15:47] <boredandblogging> oooh
[15:47] <boredandblogging> newz2000: there was an email on -news-team yesterday started by james westby about the calendar stuff
[15:48] <boredandblogging> I added you to it
[15:48] <boredandblogging> can you reply to it?
[15:48] <boredandblogging> think I've got everyone thinking about it at this point :-P
[15:48]  * newz2000 looks for it
[15:50] <newz2000> oh, filed under fridge
[15:50]  * newz2000 replies
[15:50] <boredandblogging> newz2000: thanks
[16:54] <boredandblogging> is it me or is it very hard to find well designed news sites?
[16:59] <nand> lemonde.fr ? france24.com ?
[16:59] <nand> okay, let's keep that for in two hours :)
[17:06] <boredandblogging> nand: I do like the layout of france24.com
[17:07] <nand> a problem common to lots of these news websites is : ads everywhere
[17:08] <newz2000> well, instead of comparing to other news sites, ask what is the goal and who is the user
[17:08] <newz2000> we may have different goals than other sites
[17:21]  * nand is going back home
[18:00] <newz2000> boredandblogging: I'm heading out the door a few min later than I expected, when nand comes back if I'm not back yet for our meeting I'll be only moments away
[18:00] <newz2000> (passport office is 10m away and I have the paper work already)
[18:00] <newz2000> cutting it close but should be back on time
[18:30] <nand> re!
[18:30] <nand> newz2000, boredandblogging: whenever you want
[18:31] <newz2000> ok, I'm back earlier than I expected... fail on the passport :-(
[18:31] <nand> forgot some paper?
[18:31] <newz2000> yeah
[18:31] <newz2000> try again tomorrow
[18:44] <boredandblogging> i'm ready as well
[18:45] <newz2000> ok boredandblogging, nand, lets go
[18:45] <newz2000> who wants to start?
[18:46] <boredandblogging> nand: ping
[18:46] <nand> yep, I'm here!
[18:46] <boredandblogging> so let me start
[18:46] <boredandblogging> the audience for the website
[18:47] <boredandblogging> basically, cover inter, intra, and external communication
[18:47] <boredandblogging> I place for teams to post things that members of their own teams want/need to know
[18:47] <boredandblogging> a place for locos to share their experiences doing things
[18:48] <boredandblogging> and show off what they have been able to
[18:48] <boredandblogging> so it will help all locos
[18:48] <boredandblogging> and in general
[18:48] <boredandblogging> communication with the outside world
[18:48] <boredandblogging> fridge should be where "outsiders" come to find out the latest happenings in the Ubuntu community
[18:49] <boredandblogging> maybe I should say the scope is everything :-P
[18:49] <newz2000> well
[18:49] <nand> Question: should we include external news, such as found in http://ubuntu-news.net/ ?
[18:49] <newz2000> boredandblogging: lets start with persona
[18:49] <newz2000> who is our user (or users) and what do they want?
[18:50] <boredandblogging> nand no, not unless its very high quality
[18:51] <nand> newz2000: My opinion is : all. Technically involved contributors, developers, and average non-technical users
[18:51] <newz2000> instead of all, lets define them. We can't please everyone and we don't want to become a yahoo-like portal
[18:51] <boredandblogging> newz2000: what nand said, does that sound too big of a scope?
[18:51] <newz2000> yes
[18:51] <newz2000> :-)
[18:51] <boredandblogging> ok
[18:51] <newz2000> Lets figure out three persona that we can cater to
[18:51] <newz2000> and we'll make the focus of them...
[18:52] <nand> persona?
[18:52] <newz2000> (not counting the admins or peopel who post events (necessarily))
[18:52] <boredandblogging> right, lets start with technical/developers
[18:52] <newz2000> for example, a loco team user who wants to know when and where the next loco team meeting
[18:53] <boredandblogging> thats not the use case I'm sure we are going for
[18:53] <nand> agree
[18:54] <newz2000> ok, go ahead, lets create the proper persona then
[18:54] <boredandblogging> its more like the LoCo had a release party, this is what they did to get it going, this is what happened, this is what they learned, etc
[18:54] <boredandblogging> and throw in some pictures and videos
[18:55] <nand> yep
[18:55] <nand> we could include the planning part, but that would be a secondary optional goal
[18:56] <newz2000> ok, so one persona is a team that wants to brag about an event that happened in the past, possibly uploading pictures or videos
[18:56] <boredandblogging> newz2000: correct
[18:56] <newz2000> so that may not even be the right track
[18:57] <newz2000> because that's focusing on the people who are publishing events, and they'll benefit little from a redesign.
[18:57] <newz2000> It's the people who are interested in reading about that event that need to be defined.
[18:57] <newz2000> And maybe those people aren't even a good target, it's the people who come to the fridge to get some kind of information that we need to identify.
[18:57] <newz2000> Once we do that then we can decide how best to meet their needs with the design.
[18:58] <boredandblogging> ah right, I see
[18:58] <boredandblogging> how about this...
[18:58] <boredandblogging> loco members who are trying to find out what other locos are doing?
[18:59] <nand> and want to gain experience, tricks and tips from them?
[18:59] <newz2000> ok, that sounds good
[18:59] <nand> (how did the french do to gather 4000 people?? :) )
[18:59] <boredandblogging> right
[19:00] <nand> next: Ubuntu teams members, contributors ?
[19:00] <nand> people in the loop, technically advanced
[19:01] <boredandblogging> one of the things james westby talked about was how sometimes developers fall off the map
[19:01] <boredandblogging> they go away for a while and then come back
[19:01] <boredandblogging> since MOTU stuff moves pretty fast, there is no way for them to keep track of what has changed
[19:02] <nand> and that's why they were talking about this Developer News
[19:02] <boredandblogging> right
[19:02] <boredandblogging> this applies to non-MOTU related activities as well
[19:02] <boredandblogging> say Xubuntu needs a new ISO tested
[19:03] <boredandblogging> the reader might be anyone looking to help out
[19:03] <boredandblogging> or looking for a way to participate
[19:03] <boredandblogging> is that vague?
[19:03] <nand> in this case, it is a third kind of person : potential contributor
[19:04] <newz2000> it is  a bit vague
[19:04] <newz2000> so these are people who are in the community but need to stay in touch with what's happening?
[19:05] <boredandblogging> right
[19:05] <nand> yes
[19:05] <newz2000> that sounds good enough
[19:05] <boredandblogging> and maybe a separate persona of people who want to find ways to participate
[19:05] <newz2000> let me make a sugegstion for another...
[19:05] <newz2000> people who are not yet sold on Ubuntu and want to find out what's going on or hear the buzz
[19:06] <boredandblogging> definitely
[19:06] <nand> the outsider category
[19:06] <boredandblogging> media folks who are looking for something to write about
[19:06] <nand> so summing all, we end up by targeting all people :)
[19:06] <newz2000> well, not really
[19:06] <nand> or let's say : who are we not targetting?
[19:06] <newz2000> not yet
[19:07] <newz2000> but we will
[19:07] <newz2000> we have three maybe four personas now we want to cater to
[19:07] <nand> who do we don't want to target?
[19:07] <newz2000> wait
[19:07] <newz2000> :-)
[19:07] <newz2000> let's restate our personas and ensure we agree
[19:07] <newz2000> locos - want to know what other locos are doing
[19:08] <newz2000> insiders - trying to stay in touch with what's going on
[19:08] <newz2000> outsiders / press - looking for use cases or success stories about Ubuntu
[19:08] <boredandblogging> yeah, looks right
[19:08] <newz2000> you started to mention a fourth...
[19:08] <newz2000> people who want to participate
[19:08] <nand> and we mentionned people wanting to contribute
[19:08] <nand> yeah
[19:09] <newz2000> is the fridge the best place for those? Do we currently help them?
[19:09] <boredandblogging> that maybe more of a ubuntu wanted thing
[19:09] <boredandblogging> or the Partipcate page
[19:09] <boredandblogging> Participate
[19:09] <nand> they may be inter related
[19:10] <nand> e.g. "Call for testing" : you need people fast
[19:10] <nand> you may want to put it in front page for a while
[19:10] <newz2000> ok, so that may be a good persona then
[19:10] <nand> but on the overall, yeah, wanted
[19:11] <nand> we don't want all help request on the news website. But a few once in a while would not hurt
[19:11] <boredandblogging> yeah, depending on what it is
[19:11] <nand> and concerning the Fridge, for outsiders, its visibility is very bad
[19:11] <nand> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=988278
[19:12] <nand> insiders : I'm not aware of any of us reading the fridge
[19:12] <nand> since its content can be found on the planet
[19:13] <boredandblogging> which we've discussed is a bad place to announce anything
[19:14] <boredandblogging> thats why we need to revive the fridge :-)
[19:14] <nand> oh, new numbers on the poll! It was worse before
[19:14] <boredandblogging> newz2000: so what do you think?
[19:15] <nand> and locos: basically they is very few content for them.
[19:15] <newz2000> I was wondering if we need to revise our persona, or do you think the original three are OK (considering the comment about "insiders")
[19:16] <nand> still ok for me
[19:17] <newz2000> ok, so we have our three persona
[19:17] <newz2000> who is not going to be best served by the fridge?
[19:17] <nand> why should one of these category be badly served?
[19:18] <newz2000> no, I mean who have we not discussed yet
[19:18] <newz2000> those that we are not catering to
[19:18] <boredandblogging> anyone who has no clue about Ubuntu
[19:19] <boredandblogging> which is ok
[19:19] <nand> for this, we need a good inter-website navigation, so that they can easily find ubuntu.com
[19:19] <newz2000> anyone else?
[19:20] <boredandblogging> not that I can think of
[19:21] <newz2000> ok, so we need to decide how to attract and serve our target users and how to deflect the others
[19:21] <newz2000> how can we make the target users happiest?
[19:21]  * newz2000 is putting this on the wiki btw
[19:21] <nand> lots of news
[19:21] <nand> and well organized
[19:21] <newz2000> do all three persona care about the same news or do they each want something different?
[19:22] <nand> different
[19:22] <newz2000> ok, for each, what do they want?
[19:22] <boredandblogging> i think at a high level most would be interested in knowing some of the same thing
[19:22] <boredandblogging> s
[19:22] <boredandblogging> for example, the 4000 people french release party
[19:23] <boredandblogging> it may be not technical, but it would surely interest everyone
[19:23] <nand> yeah
[19:23] <nand> the most interesting piece of news understandable by all categories of people
[19:24] <nand> pieces
[19:24] <newz2000> ok, so what do the loco users want to know?
[19:25] <boredandblogging> events, bug james
[19:25] <boredandblogging> jams
[19:25] <nand> events on the LoCo team ("new locos database", ...)
[19:26] <boredandblogging> i have a side question
[19:26] <boredandblogging> are their not categories of news that cross all personas?
[19:27] <newz2000> yes, there probably are
[19:27] <boredandblogging> for example, the Ubuntu Hall of Fame
[19:27] <nand> big pieces of news
[19:27] <boredandblogging> thats not loco or developmental specific
[19:27] <boredandblogging> free culture showcase, etc
[19:27] <newz2000> What's going to happen is that by identifying the needs of our users we'll create a homepage where everyone who is a target user gets satisfaction
[19:28] <boredandblogging> so all three personas find something for themselves on the homepage?
[19:28] <newz2000> yes
[19:28] <boredandblogging> makes perfectly good sense
[19:29] <boredandblogging> back to locos
[19:29] <newz2000> Events and bug jams so far
[19:29] <boredandblogging> think they would like to know the high level things
[19:29] <boredandblogging> free culture showcase
[19:29] <boredandblogging> open week
[19:30] <newz2000> maybe we should also identify what they don't want to see... is there something that would either turn them off or waste their time
[19:30] <boredandblogging> too much technical stuff :-P
[19:31] <boredandblogging> low level technical discussions or topics
[19:31] <newz2000> good
[19:31] <newz2000> here's what i have so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Persona
[19:32] <newz2000> we can revise this at any time so lets move on to the next persona, insiders
[19:33] <boredandblogging> interested in MOTU, docs, testing
[19:33] <nand> they will like news from their team
[19:33] <boredandblogging> or maybe they are just subpersonas of insiders
[19:34] <nand> and also getting the headlines from others teams
[19:34] <newz2000> nand, those last two combined == 'everything'
[19:34] <newz2000> :-D
[19:35] <nand> eheh
[19:35] <newz2000> What will turn the insiders off?
[19:36] <boredandblogging> hmm
[19:36] <nand> average users tip and tricks... well, any newbie related stuff
[19:37] <boredandblogging> which I doubt we will have much of
[19:37] <newz2000> ok
[19:37] <newz2000> Outsiders
[19:37] <nand> If we let people submit posts... :)
[19:37] <boredandblogging> nand: thats a whole different issue
[19:37] <boredandblogging> :-P
[19:38] <nand> Outsiders, we can see it in Brainstorm, want to know what's going on in the development of Ubuntu!
[19:38] <newz2000> I've made a note of it
[19:38] <nand> and while being technically accessible
[19:38] <boredandblogging> right, no one wants to join IRC or mailing lists to find out
[19:38] <nand> it's just out of question for them
[19:39] <nand> oh, and
[19:39] <nand> for the average user, Ubuntu is... everything. No upstream conception
[19:40] <nand> so they will expect news related to... every area
[19:40] <nand> Xorg, kernel, ...
[19:40] <newz2000> good observation nand, I think I agree
[19:41] <nand> they'll want to know when a new ATI hardware is supported, they'll want to know when a new big feature has finally landed on gnome, and so on...
[19:43] <boredandblogging> its fine if we can tell them, but can point them upstream if needed
[19:43] <newz2000> here's what I ahve so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Persona
[19:43] <nand> if they do have some kind of news items, of course.
[19:43] <nand> (and non technical ones)
[19:44] <nand> okay
[19:44] <boredandblogging> looks good
[19:44] <newz2000> so you're starting to see the kinds of things that would make a good homepage for our users
[19:44] <newz2000> and what to avoid
[19:45] <nand> A kind of three main subportal may be a good idea
[19:46] <newz2000> maybe, but as  you noted, some of the things are interesting to multiple target users
[19:46] <newz2000> so I wouldn't do one-column per persona
[19:46] <nand> oh nono I was not thinking of that
[19:46] <newz2000> instead focus on ways to get interesting data for each above the fold
[19:46] <nand> but roughly that: http://www.ndeschildre.net/downloads/UBnews.html
[19:47] <nand> (the big tabs)
[19:47] <nand> (roughly :) )
[19:47] <newz2000> sure
[19:47] <nand> First page combine a little of all, but no to almost no technical stuff at all
[19:47] <newz2000> nand, are you good at theming?
[19:48] <nand> I'm not really a designer. I can get some stuff done, but that takes me much longer than a designer would do :)
[19:48] <newz2000> if I give you my html and images can you make it into a theme?
[19:48] <nand> no problem
[19:49] <newz2000> ok, I have a working html template but it's not a drupal theme
[19:49] <boredandblogging> would now be a good time to talk about LP integration and videos?
[19:49] <newz2000> almost
[19:49] <nand> and language support? :)
[19:49] <newz2000> nand: it looks like yours but has better typography, simpler layout code and is fixed width (and we can adjust the width)
[19:49] <boredandblogging> oh yeah, I was gonna mention the width thing
[19:50] <newz2000> go for it
[19:50] <nand> yeah, do we want fixed or not?
[19:50] <newz2000> What I have is fixed but we don't have to use fixed
[19:50] <newz2000> if we do, I think the fridge can support a wide fixed-width
[19:50] <boredandblogging> if not fixed width, something that doesn't go all the way across
[19:50] <nand> pb with fixed is that it sucks on big screen. Pb with non-fixed is that it's harder to make a good theme of it
[19:51] <newz2000> yeah
[19:51] <newz2000> why don't we start with what I have
[19:51] <nand> what do you have?
[19:51] <nand> Oh
[19:51] <newz2000> it's pretty good and if we make it 950px wide it will work nicely
[19:51] <nand> and I forgot
[19:51] <newz2000> for most people
[19:51] <newz2000> (can be seen on shipit currently)
[19:52] <nand> by theme, you mean the outside of the page?
[19:52] <newz2000> yes
[19:53] <newz2000> just the shell, the brown part with the rounded corners
[19:53] <nand> ok
[19:53] <newz2000> I also have the graphic I made for the fridge currently if that helps (in svg format)
[19:53] <nand> we should maybe keep the design part for later and first see about languages, LP integration and videos?
[19:54] <newz2000> ok
[19:55] <nand> Concerning languages, why not make this available in several languages? Drupal offer the infrastructure to translate existing nodes
[19:56] <nand> that could be managed by community members
[19:57] <nand> a real life example is http://observers.france24.com/en/, http://observers.france24.com/fr/, http://observers.france24.com/ar/
[19:57] <newz2000> So where do people who want non-english ubuntu news go now?
[19:58] <nand> in their local loco team website, if it exists (rare), or... nothing
[19:58] <boredandblogging> yeah, depends on the locos who speak that language
[19:59] <newz2000> Ubuntu.com is english only and depends (and in the future will explicitly refer people to) localized sites.
[20:01] <newz2000> not saying same has to be for fridge
[20:01] <boredandblogging> the thing is, I'm not sure how much of the fridge would get translated if the option was available
[20:01] <newz2000> especially considering how fast news can change
[20:01] <newz2000> what about lp integration?
[20:01] <nand> we can let the local members decide what to put on their frontpage
[20:02] <nand> LP integration : tested locally on Brainstorm, works great.
[20:02] <nand> LP teams binding needs some bugs fixes
[20:02] <boredandblogging> i wanted this specifically for comments (can be used for other things if needed)
[20:03] <newz2000> ok, so to comment must have a launchpad id?
[20:03] <boredandblogging> if a reader is already logged into LP, use their name, maybe their profile pic
[20:03] <nand> sound ok. Avoid spam pbs
[20:03] <boredandblogging> newz2000: thats a tricky question
[20:03] <boredandblogging> would like it to be open, but I'm afraid of spam
[20:04] <boredandblogging> maybe some captcha could help
[20:04] <newz2000> there is spam blocking plugins like mollum and etc
[20:04] <nand> okay, one or the other
[20:04] <nand> if LP data available, display img and stuff
[20:04] <nand> otherwise too bad
[20:05] <nand> Videos?
[20:05] <newz2000> go for it
[20:06] <boredandblogging> yes
[20:06] <boredandblogging> this is my big thing
[20:06] <boredandblogging> i think the front page should always have a nice picture or video
[20:07] <boredandblogging> the content from UDS alone gives us material for a couple of months
[20:07] <newz2000> ok, would that be self hosted or on youtube/etc?
[20:07] <nand> I do agree, as much as possible, videos/imgs
[20:07] <boredandblogging> and I don't think we should be hosting any of the videos either
[20:07] <boredandblogging> youtube is being used for the UDS stuff
[20:08] <boredandblogging> we just embed
[20:08] <newz2000> I saw a good demo last week of how to add videos to your website when they're hosted elsewhere
[20:08] <nand> CCK and stuff
[20:08] <newz2000> piece of cake, though I don't know about the security/firewall concerns (with that server being able to ping youtube)
[20:08] <boredandblogging> i'm a bit worried about the different sizes that all the different sites use
[20:08] <newz2000> yes
[20:09] <boredandblogging> i tried embedding on the current fridge, and it let me
[20:09] <boredandblogging> at least when previewing, didn't actually submit it
[20:09] <nand> depend on the filter in use
[20:10] <nand> but the size of the player can be given to the player
[20:10] <nand> anything more on videos?
[20:10] <newz2000> http://youdrup.com/ youtube clone done in drupal
[20:10] <newz2000> :-)
[20:11] <boredandblogging> nie
[20:11] <boredandblogging> nice
[20:11] <Turl> newz2000: is there an ubuntu download page in other lang than english? you should make one if there isn't, or promote it if there is
[20:12] <newz2000> there is not, but one of my hopeful plans for next release is to make a syndicatable download iframe that can be localized
[20:12] <newz2000> that's an unofficial goal currently. :-)
[20:12] <Turl> great :)
[20:12] <nand> Now I'd like to see the frontpage:
[20:12] <Turl> and how's that automatic mirror selection going?
[20:12] <nand> it should not be in a blog format, where the latest comes first. Instead, items would be ordered by the editors
[20:13] <newz2000> Turl: good, I got approval for geoip but I'm going to have a meeting with #is this week or next to discuss it in details
[20:13] <nand> so that important pieces of news stay longer on top
[20:13] <Turl> #is? what's that?
[20:13] <newz2000> information systems
[20:13] <newz2000> the people who make the servers work
[20:13] <Turl> oh great :)
[20:14] <newz2000> performance is going to be a concern so we'll be playign with it some after the new year (tentatively)
[20:14] <Turl> I don't think you'll have performance issues
[20:14] <newz2000> yeah, the download page is currently proxied but not cached (so I hear)
[20:14] <Turl> how many simultaneous users use the download page? 500?
[20:15] <newz2000> geoip should not add much at all to that
[20:15] <newz2000> good question, I dont' know, but a lot
[20:15] <newz2000> but because it is proxied getting the correct IP can be a challenge sometimes
[20:15] <boredandblogging> do we need to discuss the front page more?
[20:15]  * newz2000 isn't worried though
[20:16] <newz2000> I'm ok with whatever you want to do on the front page
[20:16] <nand> ok, anything else?
[20:16] <Turl> a cheap VPS server can handle 500+ users on a forum (vBulletin) with the correct caching & webserver, I don't think you'll have any problems
[20:16] <newz2000> I can help with suggestions or technical difficulties but if you and nand want to head it up I'm fine with that
[20:16] <newz2000> Turl: ubuntu.com gets far far far more than that
[20:17] <newz2000> people litterally sit on the homepage and press refresh over and over again
[20:17] <Turl> yeah, but I don't think 100+ users at the same sec will enter the dl page, will them?
[20:17] <newz2000> yes
[20:17] <Turl> :O
[20:17] <newz2000> at times, like on release day for example. :-)
[20:17] <boredandblogging> nand: do you want to try creating a real theme and testing it out?
[20:18] <boredandblogging> then we can go over it and discuss?
[20:18] <Turl> well, you can have more than one vps server I imagine :p no problem either
[20:18] <newz2000> nand: why don't you draw it first
[20:18] <nand> boredandblogging: I'll try to refine the one I started
[20:18] <boredandblogging> you know, release early, release often :-)
[20:18] <nand> but that will take some time... I'm quite tired of working all day on a news website already ;)
[20:19] <newz2000> nand: I'll send you the the theme I started and you cn use it if you like
[20:19] <nand> ok thx
[20:20] <Turl> btw newz2000, I fixed the IE issue I had yesterday, with the help of css's top:
[20:20] <boredandblogging> nand: do we want to set a timetable for the first iteration?
[20:21] <boredandblogging> I don't know whats a good time estimate
[20:22] <nand> I may have something early January...
[20:22] <nand> I don't promise anything!
[20:23] <boredandblogging> nand: how about we say January 15th?
[20:23] <newz2000> nand: two emails sent, one with theme, one with fridge graphics
[20:23] <newz2000> cc'd boredandblogging
[20:23] <nand> newz2000: thx
[20:24] <nand> boredandblogging: I don't like fixed deadlines, that gives me extra pressure :)
[20:24] <nand> I'll let you know once I have something
[20:24] <boredandblogging> lol, ok
[20:24] <newz2000> every time you say that boredandblogging moves the date one day closer
[20:24] <boredandblogging> :-P
[20:25] <nand> boredandblogging: could you send me a little bit of the fridge DB?
[20:25] <nand> or even the whole DB
[20:26] <boredandblogging> newz2000: can you do that?
[20:26] <newz2000> I can get a dump of everything but the users table for you
[20:28] <nand> just need the node table, if my assumption that you're not using CCK is right
[20:29] <newz2000> sorry, you get it all. :-)
[20:30] <boredandblogging> heh
[20:30] <nand> :p
[20:30] <newz2000> hmm... maybe should have ignored sessoins table too
[20:32] <nand> yeahh, takes hundreds of Mb in brainstorm
[20:32] <newz2000> anonymous users
[20:32] <newz2000> learned a performance trick, using memcached for sessions helps a bunch
[20:32] <newz2000> haven't used it yet
[20:33] <newz2000> nand: can I give you a link to an 80m file for you to download and then let me know when finished, or would you rather do it tomorrow?
[20:34] <nand> newz2000: you can do it right now
[20:34] <boredandblogging> can't everything from the session table just get cleared occasionally?
[20:34] <newz2000> nand: ping me when you have it and I'll delete it
[20:35] <newz2000> boredandblogging: yes, cron.php clears out old stuff automatically
[20:35] <nand> newz2000: thanks
[20:35] <nand> newz2000: by default, it does not clear the session table
[20:35] <newz2000> oh, really? that explains a lot.
[20:36] <newz2000> the problem with sessions table is that it uses MyISAM table format by default and therefore locks the whole table for updates and deletes
[20:36] <newz2000> causing serious contention issues
[20:36] <newz2000> (basically site goes offline for long operations)
[20:36] <newz2000> I've got a script somewhere that clears it 1000 records at a time to avoid contention
[20:42] <nand> newz2000: okay, finished, thx
[20:42] <newz2000> my pleasure


[01:18] <TheMuso> When will work start on unity for quantal, at least so far as getting it buildable again?
[02:18] <thumper> TheMuso: um... soon I guess
[02:19] <thumper> TheMuso: how not buildable is it?
[02:26] <RAOF> cnd: Is the reason that Unity doesn't recognise multitouch gestures on my magic touchpad if it's connected after login (but does if Unity starts after the touchpad has been initialised) a Unity limitation or a utouch limitation?
[03:07] <TheMuso> thumper: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1012500/
[03:24] <thumper> TheMuso: interesting...
[07:56] <tsdgeos> thomi: ping
[13:20] <tsdgeos> hmmm
[13:20] <tsdgeos> the dbus menu stuff has no concept of which button was used to activate a given menu entry?
[22:37] <alesage> ping bschaefer
[22:37] <bschaefer> alesage, hello