[11:39] <frank23> gilesw: no I think xvid should work. try  totem-xine instead of gstreamer
[11:39] <majd> i'm trying to install php5 instead of php4 (php4 is  running fine)
[11:39] <RemyLaptop> nick one j-linux thanks :)
[11:39] <majd> i removed php4-common....
[11:39] <j-linux> gilesw: I think you need the non-free codecs... look it up in ubuntu forums
[11:39] <gilesw> k
[11:40] <gilesw> ooh naughty :)
[11:40] <davro> majd, are you wanting to install the php apache module or the php cli ?
[11:41] <gilesw> will suck if patents break free linux
[11:41] <gazanfer> smellican, have a look at this: "Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam problems, but you can always message a staffer. Please register! ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )"
[11:41] <Wizz_kidd> any programs come with Gnome to burn a CD IMAGE
[11:41] <j-linux> Anyone know if the recent "linux-header" automatic update could have caused my problem with Windows not being able to boot?  All my data is still there (I'm in a USB damn small linux now and can view the files).
[11:41] <gilesw> i read ms were threatening something about fat
[11:41] <Stormx2> majd: Check the wiki.  Does it show up in GRUB?
[11:42] <Seveas> or simply right-click the iso and select burn
[11:42] <majd> !pronounce
[11:42] <ubotu> [pronounce]  how to pronounce 'ubuntu': "oo-BOON-too".  See http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/pronunciation for details.
[11:42] <pepsi> bah.. BOON my butt.. BUN for life!
[11:42] <heatxsink> anyone in here know where in gnome I can configure gnome-screensaver to be run ?
[11:42] <davro> ask desmond !
[11:42] <Seveas> pepsi, if sabdfl hears you pronounce it like that, he'll kick your BUN
[11:42] <heatxsink> it's not being run when gnome-session starts
[11:43] <j-linux> Stormx2: I'm running ubuntu from sdb1 -- the Ultrabay (a removable tray that goes where the CD drive normally goes in the laptop).  The internal drive is MS windows.  Grub (menu.lst) was rewritten when the kernel updated.
[11:43] <Wizz_kidd> how od i go about getting gnome baker on this computer
[11:43] <Seveas> Wizz_kidd, applications  add applications
[11:43] <Wizz_kidd> package manager still deosnt work
[11:43] <j-linux> Stormx2
[11:43] <Stormx2> j-linux: So... what happens when you boot it?
[11:43] <Stormx2> the laptop...
[11:43] <j-linux> :Stormx2: after that ubuntu breezy update, windows boots into the blue screen of death
[11:43] <Stormx2> j-linux: Eek
[11:43] <Wizz_kidd> Seveas, yea i know but package manger doest work and im not familiar with ubntu hmmm
[11:44] <MaXuS> how do i connect towards networkneighboorhood or so ?
[11:44] <Seveas> Wizz_kidd, did apt-get install ubuntu-desktop give errors?
[11:44] <MaXuS> (network sharing)
[11:44] <j-linux> Stormx2: it goes into "IBM recovery tools" and then quits into the windowsblue screen of death
[11:44] <Seveas> MaXuS, places  connect to servetr
[11:44] <trent> Sorry for the sudden join, I have on what I should do if I do not hear sound on any of my wine applications and they do not recognise my sound card?
[11:44] <ubuntu> hi
[11:44] <Steil> Does anyone know if there is a "Joystick plugin" for Banshee?
[11:45] <frank23> Steil: what is banshee?
[11:45] <j-linux> Stormx2: but I can even pull out the Ubuntu breezy drive and windows still doesn't load.  I'm wondering if it is possible that Ubuntu might have done something to my other drive.  Is that possible?  grub is on the removeable drive...
[11:45] <gilesw> if i install the nvidia latest binary myself will i get better performance over nvidia-glx ?
[11:45] <Steil> frank23: Music player
[11:45] <trappist> j-linux: not likely
[11:45] <Frebrd> how do i share folders thru a network with server ubuntu?
[11:45] <frank23> Steil: l see
[11:46] <j-linux> trappist: a strange coincidence?
[11:46] <trappist> j-linux: oops I meant to say that to gilesw
[11:46] <j-linux> oh
[11:46] <Stormx2> j-linux: I'm beginning to think it was a coincidence, but the headers couldn't have screwed with your windows hdd im sure...
[11:46] <gazanfer> smellican, can you please look at other channel when you have time?
[11:47] <pepsi> heatxsink, can you dpkg-reconfigure it? or reinstall it or xscreensaver/
[11:47] <frank23> gilesw: maybe slightly more performance. I think you have to recompile a kernel module everytime the kernel is updated though with the nvidia driver
[11:47] <j-linux> Does grub ever write to a drive when booting? for example if I put the wrong entry (drive letters hda1, or whatever) in menu.lst?  I booted a few times with experimental menu.lst drive labels... trying to get windows to boot without having to go into the bios each time I want to change OSs.
[11:47] <j-linux> ?
[11:47] <frank23> gilesw: If you're lazy, stick with what's in the repos
[11:48] <heatxsink> pepsi:  that worked, thanks!
[11:48] <dispanser> j-linux: have you tried rewriting your windows disk's boot sector?
[11:48] <j-linux> Already spent two days on this... hate to go into a third day reinstalling windows -- takes 3 hours :S
[11:49] <oklinux> why are you talking down on ubuntu ?
[11:49] <j-linux> dispanser: what is that? :S
[11:49] <EnsignRedshirt> Hello, world.
[11:49] <j-linux> dispanser: Do I do that with a windows disk?
[11:49] <dispanser> well, when i was young, there was fdisk /mbr which rewrote the master boot record to something usable (for windows)
[11:49] <oklinux> throw it away j-linux
[11:49] <dispanser> I believe that's still possible; windows cd should have a rescue mode with a command line.
[11:50] <brenner> j-linux: what's the problem?
[11:50] <j-linux> dispanser: yeah... I remember that... or I think it is something like fixmbr now... I sohuld try that.
[11:50] <EnsignRedshirt> Any change that anyone here has tried using GiNaC in Ubuntu?  Specifically, the ginsh shell interface to the ginac library.
[11:50] <EnsignRedshirt> s/change/chance/
[11:50] <oklinux> trapppist are you here ?
[11:50] <dispanser> if only the mbr is broken, that will solve your issue -- goo dluck :)
[11:50] <NiskuP> Hello all.
[11:50] <j-linux> dispanser: thanks for that tip... I'm going to go home and see if I can get to a command line with the recovery disks... thanks.
[11:50] <EnsignRedshirt> I tried running ginsh, but it says it is missing a library.  Perhaps this means the package is broken?
[11:51] <b33r> Make the downloaded file executable. At the command line, change to the directory where you downloaded the file, and type
[11:51] <b33r>   chmod +x jre-1_5_0_06-linux-i586.bin
[11:51] <b33r>  <-- can anyone gimme an example how 2 do this?
[11:51] <brenner> b33r: where'd you save the file?
[11:51] <b33r> on desktop
[11:52] <dispanser> b33r: do you have a terminal open?
[11:52] <b33r> 1st day on linux
[11:52] <brenner> b33r: apps>accessories>terminal
[11:52] <b33r> yeah I do
[11:52] <brenner> b33r: cd ~/Desktop
[11:52] <brenner> chmod +x jre-1_5_0_06-linux-i586.bin
[11:52] <Klick_> hey how do you tell ubuntu that you want to upgrade to xorg7 not 6 it says i already have the newest version
[11:52] <pippijn> hi all
[11:53] <shiftoi> heya, got a question, i'm trying to get monkeys audio files working in a media player, i've added support to gstreamer, and now rhythmbox can play them, but it can't seem to read the tags.... anyone know why this might be?
[11:53] <pippijn> ??                      34821    ??         0.00 secs Thu Jan  1 02:00
[11:53] <pippijn> ??                      34821    ??         0.00 secs Thu Jan  1 02:00
[11:53] <pippijn> ??                      34821    ??         0.00 secs Thu Jan  1 02:00
[11:53] <pippijn> ??                      34821    ??         0.00 secs Thu Jan  1 02:00
[11:53] <pippijn> this is my lastcomm output
[11:53] <pippijn> what could be causing this?
[11:53] <Seveas> pippijn, NEVER EVER paste in here
[11:53] <pippijn> :\
[11:53] <pippijn> okay
[11:53] <dispanser> b33r: you could instead right-click on the file and select properties->permissions->execute
[11:53] <HymnToLife> shiftoi> wrong tag format maybe
[11:53] <Frebrd> how do i extract a tar from the console
[11:53] <pippijn> http://rafb.net/paste/results/vz1BKh44.html
[11:53] <Frebrd> ?
[11:53] <Seveas> Frebrd, tar -x
[11:54] <oklinux> why are you talking down on ubuntu ?
[11:54] <oklinux> why are peoples talk down on ubuntu ?
[11:54] <shiftoi> hymntolife: know if the tag reading is part of the gstreamer framework, or part of rhythmbox?
[11:55] <Frebrd> Seveas, is it supposed to take a long long long time? 6 mb
[11:55] <HymnToLife> I think of rythmbox
[11:55] <Steil> oklinux: what do you mean?
[11:55] <maximaus> Hey ya'll. I discovered my /var directory was over 2.2G and clogging my directory after upgrading. Can I delete some of the logs or cache safely?
[11:55] <Seveas> Frebrd, no
[11:55] <EnsignRedshirt> Hmm... definitely a broken package.  The description for libginac1.3c2 says it provides the runtime library, but the only files listed in "Installed Files" are files in /usr/share/doc/libginac1.3c2
[11:55] <HymnToLife> it can read the mp3 tags pretty well ootb but not read the files themselves
[11:55] <Seveas> maximaus, sudo apt-get clean
[11:55] <dispanser> Frebrd: tar -xf <filename>
[11:55] <HymnToLife> rythmbox stinks anyway, use amarok :)
[11:55] <Klick_> anyone here been able to install XGL on ubuntu
[11:55] <maximaus> cool Seveas, I'll google the rest. :D
[11:55] <dispanser> if you don't do -f, he's expecting data from the standard input, not from the file
[11:55] <pippijn> any ideas?
[11:55] <oklinux> Steil people dont like it for some reason in other chat room
[11:55] <shiftoi> hrm, that'd be it then, cause it's using APE tags, not ID3
[11:55] <Steil> Klick_: It's in the dapper repos
[11:55] <mikeazorin> bloody ubuntu is case-sensitive, i'm using standard ext3 w/ journaling, can i fix it
[11:55] <Seveas> oklinux, which?
[11:56] <Klick_> Steil, how do i get those
[11:56] <Seveas> mikeazorin, no.
[11:56] <Steil> mikeazorin: ext3 is case sensitive
[11:56] <shiftoi> is amarok gstreamer based?
[11:56] <Klick_> do i have to install dapper.. right now im using breezy badger
[11:56] <oklinux> mepis
[11:56] <Seveas> oklinux, that's their call
[11:56] <Seveas> mepis sucks anyway ;)
[11:56] <Steil> shiftoi: it's either gstreamer, or xine, your choice
[11:56] <oklinux> I know
[11:56] <aeolist> Klick_, nobody forces you to... duh!
[11:56] <bimberi> !xgl
[11:56] <ubotu> XGL on Ubuntu: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/XglHowto - Join #ubuntu-xgl for all the XGL fun on Ubuntu systems. It works ONLY on dapper. Pretty videos on http://www.novell.com/linux/xglrelease/
[11:57] <Steil> Klick_: to use the debs provided in the repos you need to upgrade to dapper
[11:57] <Klick_> if i upgrade to dapper will i loose anything i have now?
[11:57] <shiftoi> hrm, it's built for KDE?
[11:57] <smellican> hey if I put a command in my fluxbox startup that normally needs sudo, will it execute or no?
[11:58] <schmity> no
[11:58] <smellican> can I make it happen with sudo in the startup file?
[11:58] <maximaus> Seveas, that cleared the cache, but I'm still stuck with a gig of log files. Will they respawn if I delete them?
[11:58] <smellican> somehow?
[11:58] <oklinux> Seveas so ubuntu is very stable ?
[11:58] <Seveas> oklinux, yes
[11:58] <Steil> Klick_: You shouldn't, but stuff may break
[11:58] <smellican> long as you get the stable version
[11:58] <schmity> you needa make a script i think smellican
[11:58] <Seveas> maximaus, you might want to edit your logrotate config
[11:58] <maximaus> My Breezy CDs haven't fallen off the desk even once.
[11:58] <Seveas> maximaus, rofl
[11:58] <smellican> dammit I'm just trying to do ntpdate lol
[11:58] <maximaus> Seveas, sounds a bit daunting. :P
[11:59] <NiskuP> I find dapper to be quite stable although a couple things are busted.
[11:59] <oklinux> compare it to slackware or debian ?
[11:59] <EnsignRedshirt> Why is the bug reporting site referred to as "Malone", when the name of the site and the title on the web page is Launchpad?
[11:59] <MaXuS> hmz - how do i connect with windows network neighbourhood - i see zero groups/computers near me.
[11:59] <smellican> oklinux, ubuntu is debian
[11:59] <shiftoi> hrm, perhaps i should transcode all my ape files to flac
[11:59] <PsyberOne> How hard is it to switch from x86 to x86_64 without reinstalling?
[11:59] <oklinux> easier debian ?
[11:59] <smellican> yes
[11:59] <clem_yeats> MaXus : try Lisa
[11:59] <MaXuS> lisa ?


[00:42] <slangasek> pitti: would there be a problem with me uploading gtk+2.0 tonight?  you and I both have staged changes in bzr now, and I'd like to get mine to the archive :)
[01:26] <psusi> TheMuso, ping
[08:51]  * c2tarun don't miss me too much ;) ♥
[08:51]  * c2tarun is back.
[08:51] <ion> eh
[14:01] <hyperair> so the launchpad bug acronym is LP:, and bugzilla.gnome.org is BGO, so is code.google.com CGC?
[14:14] <tumbleweed> hyperair: aren't google code bug numbers project-specific?
[14:14] <hyperair> oh whoops
[14:14] <hyperair> you're right.
[15:28] <petn-randall> Hello, I'm looking for what's needed to get ureadahead working with the vanilla kernel. To my knowledge it needs a kernel patch, but I can't find it on the launchpad page of ureadahead or the usual documentation. Can someone give me any pointers?
[15:29] <hyperair> petn-randall: if you download the source tarball, it's there.
[15:30] <hyperair> petn-randall: if you clone the zen-kernel git tree it's there in the ureadahead branch
[15:31] <petn-randall> hyperair: The source tarball of ureadahead? Yeah, I've seen the patch, but it has too much fuzz on recent kernels. I'll try the zen-kernel git tree, thanks.
[15:31] <hyperair> petn-randall: if you like, i can export the patch so you don't need to clone the entire tree
[15:31] <hyperair> zen-kernel's git is pretty slow
[15:32] <petn-randall> hyperair: that would be great, thanks
[15:32] <hyperair> http://paste.debian.net/109639/
[15:32] <hyperair> petn-randall: ^ that's it
[15:37] <petn-randall> hyperair: Hmm ... it has too much fuzz against linus' tree. I'll have to patch it in by hand if nobody has done that yet.
[15:38] <hyperair> petn-randall: really? i thought it worked.
[15:38] <hyperair> lemme check
[15:38] <hyperair> my kernel's 2.6.37 and has the patch applied
[15:39] <hyperair> petn-randall: oh sorry i think i generated the wrong patch
[15:40] <hyperair> petn-randall: http://paste.debian.net/109642/
[15:42] <petn-randall> hyperair: awesome. It works against the dev tree of 2.6.38+. Thanks!
[15:42] <hyperair> =)
[16:39] <Haegin> hi, would the retarded behaviour of rubygems installing to /var/lib/gems (which requires root) and then making the installed apps which are symlinked in /usr/bin only readable by the owner (which is, of course, root) be considered a bug?
[16:43] <Chipzz> Haegin: I would call the retarded behaviour of the ruby community as a whole a bug :P
[16:44] <Chipzz> Haegin: but I guess it depends wether you're talking about the packaged version of rubygems or not
[16:44] <Ampelbein> Haegin: there is debian bug 585838 but it has no further activity
[16:45] <Haegin> Chipzz: true, and yes, it's just the default rubygems with ubuntu that I'm using
[17:29] <stefwal1> QUESTION:I'm using ubuntu maverick meerkat and python 2.6  I am totally new to debugging and wanted to test something out.  in my directory  /usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/desktopcouch/records I had a link to a server.py file. Problem is I deleted de link. Can anyone give me the location to where the link was pointing??
[17:33] <beuno> stefwal1, I dont' have that dir, but desktop couch lives here for me: /usr/share/pyshared/desktopcouch/
[17:33] <beuno> and here, apparently: /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/desktopcouch/
[17:34] <beuno> which just points to /usr/share/pyshared/desktopcouch/
[17:34] <stefwal1> beuno: I think you saved my day.
[17:35] <beuno> good, I like easy wins  :)
[17:53] <stefwal1> QUESTION: book A byte of python from swaroop ch. In this book, there's written that import sys looks for a file called sys.py, how comes I don't find that file anywhere?
[17:58] <Chipzz> stefwal1: this is not the channel for such question (cfr topic)
[17:59] <Chipzz> stefwal1: and the answer to your question is likely that since sys is a wrapper around libc functions, the module is a .so instead of normal python code
[18:00] <stefwal1> Chipzz: thanks for the answer and sorry for the inconvenience.
[18:16] <aroman> hey, I'm trying to run `debuild -S -sa`, and it fails after a little bit saying that my secret key is not available. Why is this?
[18:17] <arand> aroman: Do you have your key in ~/.gnupg/ ?
[18:18] <aroman> arand: I think so, what file would I be looking for there?
[18:18] <Ampelbein> aroman: and the emailadress in the changelog must match one of the IDs of your key
[18:19] <Ampelbein> aroman: 'gpg --list-secret-keys'
[18:20] <aroman> wow
[18:20] <aroman> guess what, my name is actually "Avi Romanoff (Final PGP key)"
[18:20] <aroman> and it won't work unless I use exactly that string as my name :O
[18:21] <aroman> is there any way to change that to remove the stuff in the parenthesis without breaking things?
[18:21] <Ampelbein> aroman: you can use '-k KEYID' as argument
[18:21] <aroman> Ampelbein: what would that do?
[18:22] <aroman> the original command does work now, i just have to type in that silly name
[18:22] <Ampelbein> aroman: it gives debsign (called by debuild) the info on what key to use instead of comparing name/adress string
[18:22] <aroman> ahh
[18:22] <aroman> so then I could leave my name in `changelog` as I want?
[18:22] <Ampelbein> aroman: yeah
[18:23] <Ampelbein> aroman: you could also add a new user id to your key via seahorse (graphical) or gpg --edit-key KEYID
[18:24] <aroman> Ampelbein: right, and would that break anything that I've already signed with the old name with?
[18:24] <Ampelbein> aroman: no
[18:24] <aroman> alright then I think i'll do that
[18:26] <aroman> Ampelbein: alright, I added the new user id to seahorse, and it worked great. thanks a bunch! :)
[18:58] <aroman> the new elementary-wallpapers just finished building :D
[20:17] <dom0do> I read most of the Developers Week logs, and I just noticed a typo in a package description. How can I report this to Debian?
[20:18] <Ampelbein> dom0do: if there is a patch already in ubuntu, use 'submittodebian' from ubuntu-dev-tools
[20:18] <Ampelbein> dom0do: if there is no patch, you can use reportbug.
[20:19] <dom0do> Ampelbein: so I shouldn't report upstream first? okie
[20:20] <Ampelbein> dom0do: well, that depends. if there is no ubuntu changes yet, it isn't worth it to introduce a change just for a typo.


[01:14] <mybalzitch> any reason why my monitor flickers @ 165hz only under linux? windows it seems fine.
[01:14] <mybalzitch> file a bug report for amdgpu?
[09:58] <ricotz> Happy New Year!


 Canonical owns our name and logo, yes?. If so we would need their permision to enter into such an agreement?
 Michael S. Mikowski … https://michaelmikowski.com/
 It doesn't matter about ownership of the logo and name as MindShare would not be impersonating, they simply shipping hardware as an OEM.
 Michael is serious about this, he is a smart guy and a entrepreneur. I have the skills, and experience to work with him and his team to bring this to fruition, and it's a really great opportunity for Kubuntu, that would grow our community.
 If they modify the Kubuntu ISO at all, I believe that it's grey area. We need to loop Canonical Legal in here regardless
 Also, unless we have an explicit agreement, the KC can't authorize use of the trademark without stepping on toes
 There are no contracts to sign, we're just being a supportive community to aid a items who want to use our software commercially, the only thing they need to do is provide links back to us and our source code repos.
 I went through this with the LC recently
 Hardware with a Ubuntu owned trademark. If it was just branding the OS installed I think you might argue that, but this is aimed at being semi-endoresed and/or a share of proceeds, then I ageree with @tsimonq2 ^
 The KC needs a catch all contract with Canonical Legal to make sure we can use the name for anything
 Make sure we have one in place already
 And we might have to get one redrawn
 Is there anything like that already ?
 It probably predates us all
 Jonathan is the person who might know
 If anyone would know, Canonical Legal would
 @RikMills, Or him
 @tsimonq2, and that ^
 OK, are you guys happy for me to work with Canonical legal ?
 What I mean is this.
 To be explicit: I am -1 on any action we take in this without clearing it with Canonical Legal. They're the ones who have to defend us in court if this goes south
 @Sick_Rimmit, Please do loop the KC in
 Also, if we do get some proceeds, they need to be ok with where it goes. Community funds, or our own account (Jonathan again).
 Right
 IANAL but they should be fine with it going in our own account, given my prior experience with Legal
 I do think we seriously need to step back and take a hard look at this prior to jumping on it first
 It seems like a great opportunity, and if it's all doable, I'm for it, but I won't +1 anything in a KC capacity that isn't well thought out first in this regard
 Have ubuntu-mate done anything like this? Seem to remember some OEM shipped things with Mate on?
 Engrossed Shi with Mate
 Entroware ship with MATE
 @Sick_Rimmit, It doesn't mean they don't have explicit authorization from Legal to do so. I don't mean to be harsh, but just because they are doing it doesn't mean we can
 I also want to check with Martin what the status is with the portugese comapy that is looking to hire a dev to help us.
 So, we have a business who want to put a Kubuntu sticker on a laptop, and ship it with Kubuntu and some extra software installed using our software packaging, all GPL software They want to do all the work, and are asking us to put news, and sponsor links on our site, in return for contributing to our community, I don't see the problem. But maybe I am just too old for this new world, bound and gagged by regulation and
 I understand, but I would rather check that there is no problem, rather than find out after the event.
 +1
 OK, I understand. Thanks for responding quickly, I know it's odd hours 😀
 I can't sleep right now but that's nobody's fault but mine :)
 Almost 3 AM here
 Oh boy! Sorry for giving you more stuff to think about
 It's all good
[07:49] <valorie> heading to bed in a minute but I think yes, we need to check with Canonical
[07:49] <valorie> and we have a viable bank account where the money can go
 good morning (and night) valorie :)
[07:50] <valorie> and we can spend it to send devels to Akademy or so
[07:50] <valorie> good morning to ya, RikMills
[07:51] <valorie> oh lord, it's nearly 1
[07:52] <valorie> niters all
 Nite
 OK, I've written back to Mike. He and I will draft this proposal, we will run it by Canonical Legal and get a letter of confirmation. I will bring both back to the council, seeking a vote of support. Sound good ?
 Sounds good to me, thanks.
 You might want to run something by the KC prior to Legal, but your discretion
 Sure thing


 I am working with GTK and libappindicator ... however, I want to change the icon of the indicator in my program dynamically ... like this: https://ghostbin.com/paste/jt9wd  but this is not working, how to solve my problem?
[13:21] <bartbes> can't you just call app_indicator_set_icon?


[10:39] <frankban> hi rogpeppe: is statecmd still the preferred package where to put API calls logic? or is it preferred to put everything in apiserver/client/client.go?
[10:39] <rogpeppe> frankban: statecmd is the place to put logic which is called by both cmd/juju and the API server
[10:40] <rogpeppe> frankban: the aim is to eliminate it eventually, when we make the command line tools use the API
[10:41] <frankban> rogpeppe: ack, I guessed so. So, if I need to implement several helper functions called by an API call, is it ok to put them in client.go?
[10:43] <rogpeppe> frankban: yes
[10:43] <frankban> cool
[10:43] <frankban> thank you
[10:43] <rogpeppe> frankban: which API call are you implementing, BTW?
[10:44] <frankban> This week (maybe to day) I'd like to start working on ServiceUpdate. It will include the MinUnits parameters.
[10:44] <frankban> rogpeppe: ^^^
[10:44] <frankban> s/to day/today/
[10:45] <rogpeppe> frankban: what else will it include?
[10:45] <rogpeppe> frankban: i guess i'd naively expect a ServiceSetMinUnits call
[10:45] <frankban> rogpeppe: as discussed with William, some weeks ago, everything: charmulr, settings(yaml), constraints
[10:46] <rogpeppe> frankban: ah, seems reasonable
[10:46] <frankban> rogpeppe: he mentioned that an API like this could help in the process of making this kind of calls transactional, IIRC
[10:48] <frankban> rogpeppe: so, maybe a good strategy could be implementing some helper functions that will be call by the new ServiceUpdate and by the other API call that share the same functionality (e.g.ServiceSetCharm). does it make sense?
[10:49] <rogpeppe> frankban: that seems reasonable. presumably this new call is going to overlap in functionality with some existing calls.
[10:49] <frankban> s/will be call/will be called/: writing today is particularly difficult...
[10:50] <frankban> rogpeppe: yes, as I said, ServiceSetCharm is one example, and others are ServiceSet/ServiceSetYAML
[10:51] <rogpeppe> frankban: is the aim that the GUI actually changes several of these things in the same call?
[10:51] <frankban> rogpeppe: the only difference is that in ServiceUpdate every parameter is optional. This seems easily achievable for strings and structs. For ints, perhaps pointers can help.
[10:52] <frankban> rogpeppe: I am not aware the GUI needs this (it only needs a way for setting MinUnits atm), but in the future hopefully can take advantage of this new unified call.
[10:52] <rogpeppe> frankban: yeah, i'm just wondering what thing we're aiming to making transactional. if we never want to change a service's charm URL in the same transaction as setting its constraints, i'm not really sure i see the point of conflating the two calls
[10:57] <frankban> rogpeppe: maybe I am wrong, and I misunderstood what William told me some weeks ago: maybe the goal was to prevent partial successes?. anyway, I am pretty sure that he requested the new ServiceUpdate API to be implemented, and this will allow the GUI to set the MinUnits for a service. I believe I will also need to take care of including service.MinUnits to the megawatcher for the service.
[11:00] <rogpeppe> frankban: ok. i'm concerned about the fact that this means we'll want to deprecate the old calls, and i'm really wanting to keep the client api as stable as possible, but i guess that's just a hit we'll have to take
[11:03] <frankban> rogpeppe: yeah. I guess ServiceSetMinUnits would work for us as well, but I was clearly pointed to this other direction
[11:04] <rogpeppe> frankban: yeah, i'd like to bring this up with william but he's incommunicado. you'd better go with what he said.
[11:04] <frankban> rogpeppe: cool, thank you
[12:52] <gary_poster> antdillon, hi
[12:52] <antdillon> Hi gary_poster
[12:53] <gary_poster> antdillon, I have a few options for you
[12:53] <gary_poster> 1) style the zoom widget
[12:54] <gary_poster> 2) fix the export widget in the inspector (it doesn't upgrade; haven't checked out why)
[12:55] <antdillon> gary_poster, Sure I'll grab the zoom widget. That shouldnt take me long
[12:56] <gary_poster> 3) put the purple circle in for landscape issues in the inspector
[12:56]  * frankban biab
[12:56] <rick_h> gary_poster: do you know who can answer gnuoy's question on the deployer in #juju?
[12:56] <rick_h> gary_poster: http://paste.mitechie.com/raw/993/
[12:57] <gary_poster> (luca can tell you where that is :-) )
[12:57] <gary_poster> 4) thanks rick_h
[12:57] <gary_poster> heh that was not 4
[12:57] <gary_poster> rick_h, on freenode #juju?
[12:57] <rick_h> gary_poster: yes, that's where he asked it. I figure it's an IS thing?
[12:58] <gary_poster> thanks rick_h replied there
[12:59] <rick_h> gary_poster: yep, thanks.
[13:02] <gary_poster> antdillon, #4 was "see if something else is broken and tell me about it and fix it if no one else is working on it" ;-)
[13:03] <antdillon> gary_poster, Awesome, I'll work through them in that order I think, seems to make sense
[13:03] <gary_poster> cool antdillon thanks
[13:39] <sinzui> jujugui webops are urging us to provide nagios integration to the juju-gui charm. Does someone have time to review my branch? https://code.launchpad.net/~sinzui/charms/precise/juju-gui/nagios/+merge/177588
[13:39] <benji> sinzui: I'll be glad to take a look.
[13:40] <benji> sinzui: in way of quid pro quo I would like to know who the best person to talk about the jujucharms.com charm would be
[13:41] <sinzui> benji, I and abentley are the most familiar in both authorship and deployments
[13:42] <benji> sinzui: I was thinking more on the ops side.  I need to verify (through some means that I have yet to devise) that the charm ops used for the GUI includes our latest changes (cache headers)
[13:45] <teknico> benji: fyi, when I run "apache2ctl configtest" on a charm deployment, I get this output: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5950894/
[13:46] <benji> teknico: that's something I should look into; thanks!
[13:47] <benji> teknico: hmm, when I run it on a box with a deployed GUI charm I get "Syntax OK"
[13:47] <teknico> benji: also, the config/apache-site.template file uses both tabs and spaces for indentation :-)
[13:47] <benji> ok, now THAT is a problem
[13:47] <sinzui> benji, gunoy and thedac are best. gnunoy is online now in fact.
[13:47] <teknico> :-)
[13:47] <benji> sinzui: cool, thanks
[13:47] <teknico> benji: there might be some problem with my deployment then
[13:48] <benji> teknico: I added a "a2emod" call to the dependencies setup step that should have added mod_headers
[13:49] <teknico> benji: I have not seen that, are your cache changes in trunk already?
[13:50] <benji> teknico: yep: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~juju-gui-charmers/charms/precise/juju-gui/trunk/revision/71
[13:50] <frankban> it's interesting that in Italy we use "quid pro quo" in a different way, meaning "misunderstanding". and we express the "exchange of services" meaning using another latin sentence: "do ut des"
[13:52] <benji> frankban: interesting; it seems that the "substituting one thing for the other" (i.e., misunderstanding) meaning is closer to the original usage
[13:58] <abentley> benji: I am thinking of going back to versioning, but before I do, is there anything left from Friday that we still need to put to bed?
[13:59] <benji> abentley: not that I am aware of.  You might ask Gary if he needs anything for the demo [it may be done now, for all I know]
[14:00] <abentley> gary_poster: Is there anything you need for the demo (or is it over)?
[14:01] <gary_poster> abentley, it is over.  server was down again but it was ok.  people still very happy with progress.
[14:02] <abentley> gary_poster: That's a shame.  It's surprising it's so tempermental-- it's deployed exactly the same way as staging.
[14:03] <abentley> gary_poster: I'll rip it down now unless you want to keep it around for some reason.  I expect we'll have staging updated to work similarly soon.
[14:04] <gary_poster> jujugui, orangesquad, busy now but wanted to say generally that people (including MS ;-) were very pleased with the demo.  Juju group has a meeting this evening so may get more details this evening, but so far so very good.  Thank you!
[14:04] <sinzui> frankban, :) In British English we use "to table" to mean lets talk now, but in America English the phrase means talk later.
[14:04] <abentley> gary_poster: Great to hear.
[14:04] <rick_h> gary_poster: woot!
[14:04] <gary_poster> abentley, yeah, rip it down.  sorry it didn't work out but glad for progress nonetheless
[14:07] <frankban> :-)
[14:20] <benji> sinzui: where is the best place to contact gunoy, I don't see him anywhere I normally /join
[14:21] <rick_h> benji: he was in #juju eariler today
[14:21] <rick_h> earlier ugh
[14:25] <sinzui> benji, #webops
[14:52] <hatch> morning all
[14:53] <antdillon> Hi, is there a way to clean the css its appending the new styles?
[14:53] <hatch> say what?
[14:53] <rick_h> lol
[14:54] <antdillon> When I refresh a local juju gui it add's the combined css from the less to the end of the existing css
[14:55] <antdillon> Does that not happen for everybody else?
[14:55] <hatch> so you're getting *.less content at the end of the css file?
[14:55] <rick_h> antdillon: I think you need to go a little deeper.
[14:56] <rick_h> antdillon: yes, normal build is to process the less styles and build a combined stylesheet out of them
[14:56] <rick_h> antdillon: I don't think we have an 'unprocessed' version of it in single files available right now
[14:57] <antdillon> hatch, rick_h Not less content, this combining the css and adding it to the end of the css file
[14:58] <antdillon> rick_h, My juju-gui.css file is 27000+ line long at the moment
[14:58] <rick_h> antdillon: hmm, 16,221 here
[14:58] <antdillon> I guess just deleting the contents of juju-gui.css and re-running would do the trick
[14:59] <rick_h> antdillon: right, I understand what you're saying, but we're not following what you're asking. You want to rebuild the file? You want to not combine the file?
[14:59] <hatch> antdillon: maybe run `make clean`
[14:59] <hatch> rick_h: I 'think' that it's concatenating the contents to the file instead of remaking it
[14:59] <hatch> is what he is saying
[15:00] <antdillon> rick_h, Yes sorry I want to combine but it retaining the css from before the change
[15:00] <rick_h> hatch: oh hmmm, antdillon what commands are you running to 'rebuild' the css?
[15:00] <antdillon> hatch, Yes appending to new combined styles to the end
[15:00] <antdillon> rick_h, Just refreshing the localhost
[15:01] <rick_h> antdillon: if yuo wanted to try to keep your new stuff isolated I'd add a css file to index.html and hack on it. Then combine it into the right places in the less world. Any less file changes should auto-rebuild the css file for you.
[15:01] <antdillon> hatch, So every refresh is adding over a 1k of lines to the css
[15:01] <rick_h> antdillon: want to chat on a hangout? maybe easier to follow/suggest something?
[15:01] <hatch> well that's not possible hehe
[15:01] <hatch> so something is broken :)
[15:02] <antdillon> rick_h, Oh ok, I can split it off to its own. Just wondered if instead of concatenating the new combined styles it could replace
[15:03] <rick_h> antdillon: well that's why I ask what commands you're running? It should auto rebuild on its own as you edit the existing files.
[15:03] <hatch> i'm still curious as to how refreshing the browser is adding to the css file
[15:03] <rick_h> antdillon: if you manually run some less command, it might act strange
[15:03] <rick_h> hatch: yea, it can't be. So there's some step we're missing. Why I suggest a hangout at this point
[15:03] <rick_h> to see what's up
[15:04] <antdillon> rick_h, hatch No commands at all, I had a few changes to stylesheet.less and refreshed a few times and its combining the styles on each refresh but not replacing the content in juju-gui.css but appending it to the end
[15:05] <antdillon> rick_h, So If I give something some styles and then remove them it keeps that on earlier lines.
[15:05] <antdillon> rick_h, I have to set them back to defaults
[15:06] <hatch> antdillon: and if you run `make clean` and then `make devel` again?
[15:06] <rick_h> antdillon: ok, I see it. It's broken.
[15:06] <rick_h> antdillon: it should not be doing that.
[15:06] <rick_h> antdillon: so you found a bug :)
[15:07] <antdillon> rick_h, Woop lol
[15:07] <antdillon> hatch, Running them now
[15:07] <rick_h> filing and will see what we can do about it.
[15:07] <rick_h> antdillon: we'll get you a short command to use for the moment. Sec
[15:07] <antdillon> rick_h, Cool, are you not moving over to SASS?
[15:08] <rick_h> antdillon: trying to, but not today
[15:08] <antdillon> rick_h, COol
[15:09] <antdillon> rick_h, Oh by the way not sure if you've seen emails yet but I set up a frontend mailing list for canonical if your interested
[15:09] <antdillon> hatch, Worked a treat, thanks
[15:12] <hatch> antdillon: np - that's the goto 'fixall' :D there is also `make clean-all` which will also remove all of the node modules
[15:12] <hatch> antdillon: I joined your mailing list...do I get a grab bag or something now? :)
[15:15] <rick_h> antdillon: this will 'reset' faster than a make clean will.
[15:15] <rick_h> rm build-shared/juju-ui/assets/juju-gui.css build-shared/juju-ui/templates.js  && make build-shared/juju-ui/templates.js
[15:15] <rick_h> antdillon: just keep that in your command history for doing a 'reset' on the css and should help. Filing a bug now
[15:16] <hatch> rick_h: do we know how to repro the bug?
[15:16] <rick_h> hatch: yea
[15:16] <hatch> oh ok cool
[15:16] <rick_h> hatch: #1208503
[15:16] <_mup_> Bug #1208503: juju-gui.css rebuilds over itself improperly <juju-gui:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208503>
[15:17] <hatch> rick_h: so you're telling me this has been happening for almost a year and noone has noticed?
[15:17] <rick_h> hatch: looks like the less build command in templates.js is doing a "appendFileSync" which I assume means it's appending vs rebuilding the file
[15:17] <rick_h> hatch: well think about it. cascading CSS
[15:17] <hatch> lol
[15:18] <rick_h> it appends the new rules, which cascade over the old ones
[15:18] <rick_h> so it didn't 'effect' the layout/etc
[15:18] <hatch> that would be 'cascading cascading style sheet'
[15:18] <rick_h> n + 1
[15:18] <hatch> haha
[15:18] <rick_h> hatch: so since it's in the node stuff I'll assign it to you :P
[15:18] <hatch> sure thing :)
[15:19] <antdillon> hatch, Thanks, yes its in the post!
[15:19] <antdillon> rick_h, Thanks
[15:21] <hatch> well all of the stump grinders in the city are rented so I gota get back to digging this damn thing out :/
[15:21] <rick_h> grinder!
[15:21] <Makyo> jujugui meeting in 10 according to calendar, kanban now
[15:21] <rick_h> <3 those things.
[15:21] <hatch> oh standing up is in a couple minutes
[15:21] <Makyo> 9 now.
[15:21] <rick_h> yep
[15:21] <hatch> maybe I'll hang around then
[15:29] <Makyo> jujugui call in 1
[15:29] <bcsaller> how did I miss this change? :-(
[15:30] <rick_h> trying to get in but no load on the page :(
[15:55] <teknico> does anyone fancy reviewing some more charm refactoring? :-) https://codereview.appspot.com/12467044
[15:58] <gary_poster> jujugui, orangesquad, hi.  I'm afraid I have a meeting with MS in conflict.  However...
[15:59] <gary_poster> I just forwarded an email to peeps
[16:00] <gary_poster> Could you start the next hour by reading its content? :-)
[16:00] <rick_h> gary_poster: so hangout is not taking place now?
[16:00] <gary_poster> rick_h, not with me, no
[16:23] <rick_h> hah "It's better to have something like 'the number of commits in the last month'"
[16:25] <rick_h> so what were they acutally using in this? Was it some sort of mockup?
[16:28] <gary_poster> rick_h, in part
[16:29] <rick_h> gary_poster: ok, I guess it says it used the 'prototype' in two states but assumed it was a juju-gui install
[16:30] <gary_poster> y
[16:30] <gary_poster> used juju-gui for part
[16:30] <Makyo> Some of these run counter to goals expressed to us as a team in Oakland.  Would be interested to discuss after IoM.
[16:31]  * gary_poster has not read yet; will do so tonight.  We can hopefully talk about it this week, even.
[16:31] <rick_h> gary_poster: gotcha. Yea some of these confuse me and I assume it's how the mockup version worked. Not sure how they 'changed the tab' 2/3 way down. The back button works for going back to the charm after clicking a related one, hooks is gone, ti's source.
[16:31] <rick_h> very cool to read though. Some good info in here
[16:32] <rick_h> always fun to have testing back up things that have been said/brought up.
[16:33] <gary_poster> cool
[16:34] <gary_poster> jujugui, orangesquad, please be welcome to send comments to the mail
[16:35] <abentley> gary_poster: I don't know which mail you mean.  After you mentioned it, I looked at the juju-gui ML and didn't see anything.
[16:38] <rick_h> abentley: PM
[16:40] <gary_poster> abentley, juju-gui-peeps
[16:40] <gary_poster> abentley, private
[17:28]  * benji reboots to do a little post-lunch RAM upgrade.
[18:36] <benji> abentley: I'll be ready to join up in a couple of minutes if I'm not too late to the versioning party
[18:53] <abentley> benji: Okay, let's hang out whenever you're ready.
[18:59] <benji> abentley: guichat is open
[21:16] <hatch> hey all
[23:08] <huwshimi> Morning
[23:53] <hatch> morning huwshimi
[23:53] <hatch> thanks for the update on the build script
[23:54] <huwshimi> hatch: Hey
[23:55] <huwshimi> hatch: I was going to push a branch up for that today
[23:55] <huwshimi> hatch: It's a tiny fix


[16:45] <jledbetter> How do I get on the ops list for my loco channel? I'm leader of #ubuntu-us-va and need to keep poking others to change the topic.
[16:48] <Unit193> jledbetter: I would think you talk to stalcup or tarvid
[16:50] <jledbetter> Unit193, I'd have to get him to log on. Not sure who stalcup is.
[16:50] <jledbetter> Unit193, Is that the only way?
[16:50] <Unit193> User seen  : Jun 17 20:51:58 2011 (5 weeks, 1 day, 19:58:38 ago)
[16:51] <jtatum> jledbetter is the new team leader for virginia (elected)
[16:51] <jledbetter> Thank you for letting me know he logged in?
[16:51] <Tm_T> jledbetter: /msg chanserv access #channel list
[16:52] <jtatum> Tm_T: can't the council just change this?
[16:52] <Tm_T> change what?
[16:52] <jtatum> Tm_T: the access list for a channel.
[16:52] <jtatum> the folks that have +f are inactive
[16:52] <Tm_T> not just change it, that would be very rude
[16:53] <jtatum> pardon? jledbetter is the leader of the loco
[16:53] <jtatum> so… seems to me she should be able to request and get ops
[16:53] <jledbetter> It's alright. I'll email him and ask him to do whatever he needs to do. I just like to change the topic after meetings.
[16:53] <jtatum> check launchpad
[16:54] <Tm_T> hmm, does irc council have +f in the channel?
[16:54] <Tm_T> if not, there's not much the council itself can do
[16:54] <jtatum> ubuntu irc folks have chanserv privs to all #ubuntu- namespace channels
[16:55] <Tm_T> jtatum: elaborate?
[16:56] <jtatum> it's an officially registered namespace. folks that are designated can adjust access to anything in the namespace.
[16:56] <jtatum> "rude" or not :)
[16:56] <Tm_T> well, they can't unless they have +f, otherwise it needs freenode staff assisting (:
[16:58] <jtatum> no offense, Tm_T, but you frankly don't know what you're talking about heere
[16:59] <Tm_T> jtatum: hmmm, like to inform me then? I'm always eager to learn
[16:59] <jtatum> sure. read freenode policies on groups.
[16:59] <Tm_T> yes
[16:59] <Tm_T> I know
[16:59] <jtatum> http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml
[17:00] <jledbetter> I've been struggling with this since I got the position. I'll email them again. /shrug
[17:00] <jtatum> see under "group registration provides"
[17:00] <Tm_T> but just like with irc cloaks, it needs freenode staff to do the actual work (:)
[17:00] <jtatum> only a group contact can get freenode staff to "do the actual work"
[17:00] <jtatum> hence… why asking here
[17:00] <Tm_T> jledbetter: as being a longtime ubuntu irc op and now loco leader: the request of loco leader (with possible support from the community, like quick asking in some medium if it's ok to proceed) would suffice to irc council to proceed on the matter (:
[17:00] <Tm_T> jtatum: I know (:
[17:01] <jtatum> if you know, why are you arguing that the loco leader can't get +f in the channel?
[17:01] <jtatum> and to ask freenode staff?
[17:01] <Tm_T> 1) I didn't know that was the case
[17:01] <Tm_T> 2) I'm not arguing against it (:
[17:03] <Tm_T> I think I'm just unnecessarily stucking to small details that don't really matter, a bad habit of mine
[17:04] <jtatum> no worries. this issue is a little frustrating to me personally. i've been trying to get jledbetter ops in the channel for a very long time.
[17:04] <Tm_T> aye, can undestand the issue very well
[17:04] <Tm_T> had several channels without ops for years, wasn't fun
[17:04] <jledbetter> I'll get it in time for my term to be over ;) /cackle
[17:05] <nhandler> jledbetter: I'm still seeing tarvid listed as the owner on LP. Is there anything to show that you are the actual leader?
[17:06] <jledbetter> nhandler, I was supposed to have owner switched? Hrm.
[17:06] <jledbetter> Hm... let me see if I can find the thread.
[17:06] <nhandler> jledbetter: That is typically what happens.
[17:07] <jledbetter> nhandler, That's what we get when we have two folks that don't know ;)
[17:08] <jledbetter> nhandler, Will this do? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VirginiaTeam/MeetingMinutes  April 4 and log attached.
[17:22] <nhandler> jledbetter: It really isn't up to me on this particular issue (I'm not a GC). Essentially, you are trying to convince one of the GCs on the IRCC (who don't know the team) that you are the true leader. Once they are convinced, they can get staff to set you up with access (or you could simply get stalcup, tarvid (he can get you +F), panickedthumb, dwidmann, or panicked|eee to give you access
[17:23] <jledbetter> nhandler, Alright. I'll email again. I'm not sure who stalcup is but I have tarvid and panickedthumb's email addresses at least.
[17:23] <jledbetter> Thank you.
[17:23] <jtatum> is there a good way to contact the ircc?
[17:24] <nhandler> stalcup is Steve Stalcup (aka vorian). Not quite sure why he is on the access list (maybe with his ubuntu-us hat).
[17:24] <jledbetter> Ah ok
[17:25] <nhandler> jtatum: For this sort of thing, you can usually just request in here. We also have #ubuntu-irc-council if it is something private/confidential
[17:25] <jtatum> ok… consider it requested her
[17:25] <jtatum> e
[17:26] <nhandler> jussi, tsimpson, topyli, elky: ^ (jledbetter claims to be the new leader and wants access in #ubuntu-us-va . Linked to a meeting log posted on the wiki showing this.)
[17:26] <jtatum> jledbetter is the only active leader in -us-va. i can tell she is getting pretty frustrated by the terrible handover process. the old owner (tarvid) is a good guy but either doesn't know how or doesn't care to hand the reins over properly.
[17:27] <jledbetter> I've already emailed him and panickedthumb. Let's give them a chance. Maybe it was missed last few times.
[17:27] <jtatum> long story short - getting things changed (forums, irc, lp, mailing list) has been like pulling teeth. in fact so far none of those things have happened. not sure why it's so hard, as far as i can tell the result is going to be driving away the only active leadership in virginia
[17:28] <jledbetter> jtatum, Will give me time for other stuff ;)
[17:28] <nhandler> Usually, if you get the LP team transfered at the time of the leadership change, it makes getting the other things changed much easier.
[17:29] <jtatum> she got team admin, and it was believed that was enough
[17:29] <jledbetter> Is there a checklist of stuff? I didn't know and don't want the next person to go through this.
[17:29]  * popey notes that it's not compulsory that the team admin _is_ op of the irc channel
[17:29] <popey> or indeed the forums, launchpad or whatever else
[17:30] <jtatum> popey: of course not. but as it stands, she has to ask me to change the topic to indicate the next meeting time. i don't even live in virginia
[17:30] <popey> some teams like to have the leader be the "owner" of all resources, but it's not set in stone that it has to be the case
[17:30] <popey> heh, sure, that's sub-optimal
[17:30] <jtatum> none of the people who have access to any of these resources are active in the team
[17:30] <jtatum> so.. i'd say that's worse than sub-optimal
[17:31] <jtatum> for some of them, i doubt the admin is really needed. forums? probably never needed. i guess we could also clear the irc topic
[17:32] <jtatum> although that seems like a lame workaround to a problem that shouldn't be happening
[17:32] <jledbetter> I want to unsticky old topics and sticky new so forums is needed. I don't go there often but some do
[17:50] <nhandler> jledbetter: You should be all set
[17:51] <jledbetter> nhandler, With topic changing powers?
[17:51] <nhandler><PHONE_NUMBER> 12:51:35 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- jledbetter has flags +votsriRfAF in #ubuntu-us-va because they are logged in as jledbetter.
[17:51] <tsimpson> all powers
[17:52] <jledbetter> nhandler, Thank you :) Yay! I really appreciate that. And I'm sure jtatum does too so I don't keep bugging him about changing the topic.
[17:53] <nhandler> jledbetter: This also means that you can clean up the access list for the channel. Might I suggest adding entries of *!*@freenode/staff/* and UbuntuIrcCouncil with flags of +votiA (that will let freenode staff and the IRCC help out in emergencies when no OPs are around)
[17:54] <jledbetter> nhandler, Alright, I'll do that.


[03:17] <nisshh> godbyk, pleia2 oh, good idea, i was thinking of letting OMGUbuntu know as well
[03:33] <godbyk> nisshh: That, too.  There are probably other Linux-related sites that would be interested in a press release from us as well.
[03:34] <godbyk> nisshh: We can also post info to our Facebook page and on our Twitter feed.
[05:28] <nisshh> oh true


[00:01] <daftykins> happy December everyone! :D
[00:01] <shauno> but it gets quite naggy when that happens :/
[00:01] <penguin42> daftykins: Time flies hey
[00:01] <daftykins> sure does
[00:02] <shauno> china need something like nasa-tv :/
[00:02] <daftykins> i kinda feel bad because this is my first Christmas in my new place, so i don't own any decorations or anything
[00:03] <shauno> I haven't put decorations up since I left home.  it just feels kinda phoney with no family around
[00:05] <shauno> I just volunteer to work christmas each year, then suck up the overtime while playing the martyr
[00:05] <daftykins> :)
[00:06] <daftykins> yeah doing something in the house by myself would be very weird
[00:08] <shauno> seems china were due to launch a lunar lander this evening.  surprisingly difficult to find anything that says whether it launched or not
[00:09] <daftykins> :o
[00:10] <shauno> I had no idea they had a space station either, albiet not a permentantly manned one.  between them, and india launching a mars mission, this new space race is surprisingly quiet
[00:12] <daftykins> i didn't even know anyone was doing anything
[00:13] <shauno> that's what I mean.  all we ever hear about is the ISS.  which is neat and all, but the stuff no-one's talking about is quite neat too
[00:18] <daftykins> ah ok
[00:25] <daftykins> ok bed time nn \o
[04:14] <liam_> nubba.ls
[04:18] <liam__> SSLSERVER
[04:18] <liam__> SSLSERVER gibba.nu
[04:18] <liam__> SSLSERVER gibba.nu 7000
[04:18] <liam__> help
[07:03] <mungbean> fail
[07:05] <MartijnVdS> g'morning
[07:07] <mungbean> hello
[07:08] <mungbean> i dont think the army of a certain country should be sending me flight details of their secret misiions
[07:12] <MartijnVdS> hmm, oops?
[07:22] <mungbean> know anything about these guys? http://www.hostinger.co.uk/
[07:24] <MartijnVdS> never heard of them
[08:07] <mungbean> distrowatch have donated $400 to the linux mint project. interesting
[08:15] <chalcedony> nice
[10:14] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:39] <dwatkins> hiya
[10:53] <brobostigon> hi dwatkins
[12:08] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[12:09] <brobostigon> afternoonings bigcalm
[12:11] <bigcalm> Oh dear
[12:12] <brobostigon> ?
[12:13] <penguin42> the realisation that it's already afternoon?
[12:25] <bigcalm> Yes
[12:26] <brobostigon> overslept?
[12:26] <bigcalm> Over lived
[12:26] <bigcalm> Have been up since early
[12:26] <brobostigon> ah.
[19:01] <diddledan> quiet in here today
[19:02] <shauno> wasn't me
[19:05] <diddledan> shauno: are you shur??
[19:05] <diddledan> heck it's been so quiet that your mention of the chinky moon mission is still onscreen
[19:08] <shauno> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgZslWEQZHY   :)
[19:08] <diddledan> I like the "this way up" symbol
[19:09] <diddledan> by eck that's acceleration
[19:09] <penguin42> diddledan: I'd assumed that it was just the Federation
[19:10] <shauno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Aerospace_Science_and_Technology_Corporation
[19:10] <diddledan> penguin42: I thought that first
[19:11] <shauno> we can't have a federation, US law still blocks nasa from working with china
[19:12] <shauno> although given china's "fine, we'll make our own space station", I'm not sure what they think they're protecting; seems that ship's already sailed
[19:13] <penguin42> so they can't work with China on ISS?
[19:14] <shauno> bingo
[19:14] <penguin42> wow - didn't realise that, I'd assumed since they were working with Russia then they would work with China as well
[19:14] <diddledan> so much for it being "a shining light in the darkness"
[19:14] <diddledan> or was that babylon5?
[19:15] <shauno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Space_Station#China
[19:17] <diddledan> I like that russia were "invited" after america couldn't get into space no more
[19:17] <shauno> well there's quite a gap of time in the middle of that narative, the first component of the ISS was russian
[19:18] <diddledan> I wonder how that conversation went: "would you like to join our historic effort to create the ISS? oh, btw, we need you to ferry our astronuts"
[19:19] <diddledan> I've got to the end of the launch video but I didn't see it break down at all. are the chinese not as funny as the koreans?
[19:20] <diddledan> I was hoping for a massive explosion at the least
[19:21] <shauno> but it is quite awkward that russia are already working on their replacement for the ISS (OPSEK), china have the tiangong program, and the west has .. pretty much run out of money
[19:22] <diddledan> who's gonna be the first to put nukes on one?
[19:23] <diddledan> turn it into an orbital bombardment platform?
[19:23] <penguin42> ^gonna^was ?
[19:23] <shauno> I'm pretty sure there's already reactors up there, which is kinda scary
[19:23] <penguin42> there are?
[19:24] <moreati> shauno: nothing beyond radio isotope themal generators  (RTGs) as far as I know
[19:24] <diddledan> heh, if they fall out of orbit while also melting-down. that would be "interesting"
[19:25] <diddledan> how to irradiate the entire planet in one misguided endeavour
[19:25]  * penguin42 must remember to lead-line his hard hat
[19:25] <moreati> penguin42: fortunately lead does double duty, so you can tak out the tin foil ;)
[19:25] <diddledan> lol
[19:26] <penguin42> moreati: Nod!
[19:26] <diddledan> I hungy
[19:26] <diddledan> the thought of irradiated planet kinda makes one crave food
[19:27] <diddledan> I'm not sure how the thought process goes there tho
[19:28] <moreati> food that glows in the dark is easier to pick/catch, increased availability leads to increased consumption.
[19:29] <shauno> and 12ft bunnies can feed a whole village
[19:29] <moreati> Ergo we should irradiate all crops and livestock, increase world food production and solve the global recession
[19:30] <diddledan> that sounds like a plan
[19:39] <shauno> still think it's a bummer they can't all work together.  if china are going to the moon, and india are going to mars - the capability is already there.  we're not really protecting anything by refusing to share our toys anymore
[19:43] <penguin42> shauno: In a way this might help them, because it might be they can get to the point of being allowed to work with things they've demonstrably already done
[19:44] <diddledan> I'm not sure the chinese want a saturnV
[19:44] <diddledan> I'm sure theirs is much better
[19:45] <diddledan> heck it probably runs a real computer rather than a halft-of-a pocket calculator
[19:45] <diddledan> half*
[19:45] <shauno> I guess I worry that once they catch up, what's in it for them to work together? if they carry on with the same budget they'll just blast past us
[19:46] <diddledan> shauno: cold war
[19:46] <penguin42> literally
[19:46] <diddledan> it's happened before, it'll happen again
[19:46] <diddledan> just different parties involved
[19:46] <penguin42> will that kick the US to start doing more though?
[19:46] <shauno> right, but how did the cold war end?  russia couldn't afford to stay in the race
[19:46] <diddledan> it might
[19:47] <shauno> so it does look eerily familiar, except we're the ones struggling this time
[19:49] <diddledan> as long as when the memory implanting becomes commonplace it is actually possible to "get [my] ass to mars" I'll be happy
[19:50] <MartijnVdS> popey: Doctor Who-themed CaH cards: http://imgur.com/a/F25su
[19:50] <shauno> diddledan: might need bigger rockets
[19:51] <diddledan> shauno: that's mean :-p
[19:51] <diddledan> just because I'm of the larger persuasion doesn't mean you are allowed to mention it
[20:05] <diddledan> is it me, or (the CaH cards - black ones at the bottom) is the answer to each of those can easily be "anne widdecombe"? (for better or worse)
[20:06] <diddledan> e.g. "the voice chip of one of the cybermen has malfunctioned. instead of saying delete is now says..."
[20:06] <diddledan> and "there's a new dance on gallifrey, it's called the..."
[20:07] <diddledan> that one is scary after watching strictly come dancing last year
[20:07] <dogmatic69> anyone skilled in open shot video editor? looking to make a clip that is 20 seconds play for 30 seconds, eg stretch it a bit
[20:07] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: "it now says.. "-- "Eggs"
[20:08] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: "it's called the .." -- "Robot Anne Robinson"
[20:12] <ali1234> dogmatic69: i know how to do that in blender...
[20:12] <ali1234> but it's really difficult to explain
[20:13] <ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTA7KI2xB-c
[20:14] <ali1234> also you might be able to do it with ffmpeg/avconf with just one command
[20:14] <dogmatic69> blender is good?
[20:14] <ali1234> yeah, blender is very good, but it's really hard to use
[20:14] <dogmatic69> ah, see its like autocad :D
[20:15] <ali1234> it's like autocad, 3d studio, and after effects all rolled into one
[20:17] <diddledan> oh the lolz. I just saw an email conversation in my gmail from the hantslug. the senders are listed as "Edward, James" so all we need now is for someone called "Olmos" to post and we've recreated Bill Adama
[20:17] <diddledan> ali1234: it may be like each of those all mushed into one. but it's also none of them in terms of usability :-p
[20:18] <diddledan> I did manage to get a smattering of use out of it years ago. but have since forgotten it all
[20:19] <ali1234> after effects isn't exactly easy to use
[20:28] <GentileBen> Is Blender used by the top pros, though?
[20:28] <GentileBen> I remember it used to be used for amateur/easy game development back in the day.
[20:28] <diddledan> GentileBen: unfortunatly it's rare
[20:28] <GentileBen> Like 10 years ago.
[20:29] <diddledan> GentileBen: it's got all the functionality required for a top-level production, but nobody gives it the time-of-day in industry afaict
[20:32] <diddledan> their latest "open movie": http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z4C82eyhwgU
[20:40] <diddledan> my favourite of their movies though has to be sintel - it actually has a really good bitter-sweet story
[20:45] <diddledan> the previous to that episode 2 (it seems this llama is part of a series) is here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JOhiWY7XmoY
[20:46] <diddledan> here's my favourite (sintel)though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eRsGyueVLvQ
[20:47] <diddledan> they really went to town on sintel making a 15 minute masterpiece
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> is sintel the weird one?
[20:51] <diddledan> no that's "elephants dream" <-- note the absense of the apostrophe, that's a feature
[20:52] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: ah.. yes
[20:59] <shauno> my head is so broke.  trying to clone a wordpress install onto localhost so I can work on some modification.  and it's so broken I can't understand how it's working on the live site
[20:59] <diddledan> shauno: did you sed the database dump?
[21:00] <shauno> oh it's broken before I even try to import anything
[21:00] <diddledan> oh
[21:00] <diddledan> hmm
[21:02] <shauno> I can understand why it's broken.  what I can't understand is why Live isn't broken too lol .. http://pastebin.com/zwSCVsBH
[21:02] <shauno> (look for "<= This is line 4044")
[21:06] <diddledan> shauno: that's on line 4120 for me
[21:06] <diddledan> as part of a comment
[21:06] <shauno> yeah, something's stealing chunks of files.  awkward
[21:06] <diddledan> o_O
[21:07] <diddledan> usually when I develop locally I install a fresh wordpress from .org
[21:08] <shauno> I just grabbed the most recent backup, so this probably means they've got a whole stack of unusable backups
[21:08] <diddledan> that's worrying
[21:09] <diddledan> I've got my sites backed up onto s3
[21:09] <shauno> ahhh here we go.  either wget is being broken on ftp, or one of the machines has bad timestamps
[21:10] <diddledan> o_O
[21:11] <shauno> most the files come back with "Remote file no newer than local file" or "Remote file is newer than local file".  but some are returning "The sizes do not match (local 36747) -- retrieving."
[21:11] <shauno> which then does "REST 36747 ... done." to 'top up' the local copy with the end of the new copy
[21:12] <popey> Evening all
[21:13] <shauno> so wget thinks the timestamps match, but the contents don't, and assumes it's partially retrieved
[21:17] <shauno> I'm not touching that one.  I'll just grab a fresh copy and let them know the backups aren't viable.
[21:23] <diddledan> do they not zip their backups into a single easy-to-manage ifle?
[21:24] <shauno> yes and no.  they pull it off via ftp and then zip it.  because the host is a grumpy old man who won't change anything that "works"
[21:28] <diddledan> I'm not going to say it
[21:29] <shauno> oh I already have
[21:31] <diddledan> we're guilty of not verifying we can restore from backup, thoiugh, also :-/
[21:31] <diddledan> although our backups are vmlevel rather than site-level
[21:32] <diddledan> we have a very complex multi-layered drbd setup
[21:32] <diddledan> it's vastly overengineered for the job while at the same time completely broken
[21:34] <popey> hmm
[21:34] <popey> GTA5 advertisment that it's 30 quid in Game
[21:34] <popey> http://www.game.co.uk/ currently down
[21:34] <popey> coincidence?
[21:34] <popey> \o/ back
[21:35] <diddledan> their ec2 system probably just launched a load more instances
[21:35] <popey> its painfully slow
[21:35] <popey> New: 29.99
[21:35] <popey> Pre-owned: 37.99
[21:35] <diddledan> autoscaling is awesome
[21:37] <diddledan> our boss-likes need to realise that <insert cloud here, probably aws> is in fact worth the money
[21:37] <diddledan> I came across ecoqloud yesterday - interesting
[21:38] <diddledan> they're ec2 and s3 api-compatible
[21:38] <diddledan> the loadbalancer however doesn't cost any extra
[21:38] <GentileBen> I saw the most horrible thing in the Metro paper the other day.
[21:38] <GentileBen> A full-paged advert for a joint McFly and Busted tour - McBusted.
[21:39] <GentileBen> I haven't yet recovered.
[21:39] <diddledan> yeah, my sis-in-law wants to go to that
[21:39] <diddledan> my brother will probably convince her to let him go to the rugby instead
[21:58] <diddledan> don't you love when spammers obviously can't use their "clicky clicky spam everyone" tool?
[21:58] <diddledan> the latest, an email I received with the URL malformed
[21:58] <diddledan> and no it isn't an attempt to bypass filters
[22:27] <GentileBen> diddledan, it sounds like an excellent punishment option.
[22:27] <GentileBen> McBusted, that is.
[22:30] <diddledan> it really is idiocy involved. I've posted the content here: http://bowlhat.net/2013/12/lovespam/

[22:30] <diddledan> sorry about that, I was fighting my wordpress
[22:30] <diddledan> GentileBen: lol
[22:31] <diddledan> GentileBen: it's an excellent punishment for when someone gets McBusted doing something they shouldn't - advertisement: "if you get McBusted, get McBusted!"
[22:35] <daftykins> Oh deary, took apart my mums cheap as anything laptop to do something about the temperatures - but the gap between the heatsink plate and the processor is bridged by a thick thermal pad only. The replacement arctic silver it seems doesn't bridge that gap D:
[22:36] <diddledan> use some wadded paper
[22:37] <diddledan> (maybe I should caveat my humour?)
[22:37] <diddledan> on the plus side, the fire will keep her knees warm
[22:38] <daftykins> :)
[22:38] <daftykins> ah it hit 100 deg and promptly powered off ;D
[22:38] <diddledan> ouch
[22:38] <daftykins> so we won't get that dramatic
[22:38] <diddledan> that's nice and toasty
[22:38] <daftykins> just means i gotta take it apart, clean off the AS5 and put the pads back
[22:38] <daftykins> sure is! i'd imagine there's not enough pressure
[22:40] <diddledan> really tho, who the heck builds a heat sink that doesn't touch the thing it's supposed to be sinking heat from? (albeit with a bit of paste to improve conductivity)
[22:41] <daftykins> well i think the key part here was the thickness of the thermal pads
[22:41] <daftykins> so it was *working* albeit not well
[22:46] <daftykins> diddledan: to top it off, i had to deform the shape of the thin metal chassis to the keyboard in prying it out, as it was GLUED to the shell
[22:46] <daftykins> thankfully all the keys still work
[22:46] <daftykins> though it's not a very flat keyboard anymore XD
[22:46] <daftykins> laptop was like £230 new, super simple MSI thing :D
[23:25] <daftykins> fixed with 1 of 2 thermal pads, but still toasty
[23:25] <daftykins> squeezing the plate onto the chips has the temp drop a few degrees ^_^
[23:43] <liam_> -ChanServ- [#ubuntu-uk] Welcome to #ubuntu-uk. This channel is publicly logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com. Use of this channel implies acceptance of the terms at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService
[23:46] <daftykins> err
[23:46] <daftykins> ok


[04:17] <mhb> hi everyone, hi kwwii
[04:23] <troy_s> greets mhb
[04:40] <mhb> how's artwork?
[04:40] <mhb> or do you rather enjoy holidays?
[04:58] <msikma> Artists never rest. Or sleep, for that matter.
[05:00] <klepas> yes they do
[08:47] <n8k99> hi all
[08:50] <n8k99> mhb: here I is!
[08:55] <mhb> n8k99: hi
[08:55] <n8k99> mhb: art art art!
[08:55] <mhb> so, what do you say to the Edgy artwork?
[08:55] <mhb> Kubuntu Edgy?
[08:55] <n8k99> loved the kubuntu stuff
[08:55] <n8k99> don't really use the gnome version
[08:56] <n8k99> ...however I do prefer the baghira theme for kwin
[08:57] <n8k99> but I have been seeing some stuff that troy_s has been doing for U2
[08:57] <troy_s> ping
[08:57] <n8k99> the brown wood grain is nice - was thinking taht maybe there could be a kde version of that that uses a blue tone
[08:57] <troy_s> how goes it guys?
[08:57] <troy_s> actually, moving away from wood for the total panel.
[08:57] <troy_s> the newest just got upped
[08:58] <troy_s> its amber
[08:58] <troy_s> as bloody apple looks like it might be migrating into organics
[08:59] <mhb> troy_s: so you're moving away from organics?
[09:00] <troy_s> hell no
[09:00] <troy_s> the light pine though is out, as much as it is quite nice.
[09:00] <troy_s> might offer it as an alternative.
[09:01] <n8k99> no- I preferred the darker wood
[09:01] <troy_s> the lacquered amber is also appealing though.
[09:01] <troy_s> the 'darker' wood is actually amber.
[09:01] <n8k99> right that's the one - but if it had a blue tone it'd be gr8 over here in kdeville
[09:01] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2WindowProposals
[09:01] <troy_s> well right now the code isn't clean yet...
[09:01] <troy_s> as it is all proof of principle
[09:01] <troy_s> once it is cleaned
[09:02] <troy_s> it will be colorizable and scalable to fonts
[09:02] <troy_s> just takes a little more work with the engine rc
[09:02] <mhb> troy_s: I don't think apple is moving to wood/metal though
[09:02] <troy_s> mhb -- i think you might be incorrect.
[09:02] <mhb> troy_s: I think somebody showed you garageband or something, right?
[09:02] <troy_s> mhb -- it is a very hot item in design circles right now, and if you look
[09:02] <troy_s> at the new bloody j. ives stuff on interface you will see a distinct movement away from plastic gloss
[09:03] <troy_s> as in the new itunes
[09:03] <troy_s> and the new garageband
[09:03] <troy_s> that said, i don't think they can push it as much as we can.
[09:03] <troy_s> as their 'boxes' are still very sterile ikea kitchen appliances.
[09:03] <troy_s> plastic is simply _done_.
[09:03] <mhb> true
[09:04] <troy_s> pop5 is pretty much the direction heading now.  with an adjustment for top left lighting to follow shortly.
[09:04] <mhb> pop5?
[09:05] <n8k99> yeah that's totally the one I am keen about
[09:05] <troy_s> proof of principle 5 on that proposal page.
[09:05] <troy_s> i adjusted the polish as the rc linework was hogging cycles
[09:05] <mhb> ah
[09:05] <troy_s> and it simply wasn't communicating the way it should.
[09:05] <troy_s> far superior now.
[09:06] <troy_s> going to bang out some icon work shortly, as xmas was a time hog.
[09:06] <troy_s> top panel needs work now too, and will be matching the window border.
[09:09] <mhb> troy_s: cool
[09:09] <troy_s> as per the interface design specs..
[09:09] <mhb> n8k99: do you have a screenshot of your preferred kwin theme?
[09:09] <troy_s> ideally, i think for usability, the primary desktop surface should inherently imitate the design and implementation of the window
[09:10] <n8k99> mhb: yeah hang on
[09:13] <mhb> troy_s: you still need to clearly define the background / foreground
[09:13] <troy_s> yes.
[09:13] <troy_s> are you speaking about the edges of windows?
[09:14] <mhb> troy_s: about the "primary desktop surface"
[09:14] <mhb> troy_s: I may have misunderstood the term
[09:14] <troy_s> the intention is to develop the focused window and the two panels to be reflective of each other.
[09:15] <troy_s> meaning that the close window button and the shutdown/logout button will look identical and be in the identical spots.
[09:15] <troy_s> minimize button also will be relfected in the 'show desktop' panel application.
[09:15] <troy_s> etc.
[09:15] <troy_s> so that the design is inherently intuitive.
[09:16] <troy_s> window menu will be in the same position and have the same look as the primary desktop main menu.
[09:16] <troy_s> the rest is uncluttered.
[09:16] <n8k99> http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/snapshot1.png
[09:16] <n8k99> that's an old favorite
[09:16] <mhb> troy_s: that's going to be hard
[09:16] <mhb> troy_s: because you have a lot less space on the window menu
[09:17] <n8k99> but I prefer it blue
[09:17] <troy_s> mhb?
[09:17] <troy_s> strictly speaking in terms of muscle memory and intuition -- the two menus will be in the same location and offer the same icon
[09:18] <n8k99> http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/konqueror-konsole.png is a better desktop that I normally rock
[09:18] <mhb> troy_s: you mean when the window menu is maximized?
[09:19] <mhb> troy_s: well, wouldn't that be confusing?
[09:20] <mhb> troy_s: I mean when you have a similar icon for "close window" and "shut down the system" people might get confused
[09:20] <n8k99> is that helpful mhb ?
[09:20] <mhb> n8k99: sure
[09:20] <troy_s> mhb no
[09:21] <mhb> n8k99: you're Nathan Eckenrode? Where do I know your name from?
[09:21] <troy_s> basically, that the far right button is close window, and the system panel upper will reflect the window properties
[09:21] <troy_s> meaning that the window close button
[09:21] <troy_s> and the shutdown system / logout button will be in the same location and offer the same icon
[09:21] <n8k99> mhb: no idea? I get around?
[09:22] <mhb> n8k99: I must have read it somewhere ... any important project you're a member of?
[09:22] <n8k99> mhb: og has mentioned me a couple times in his blog on the planet
[09:23] <n8k99> I presented *ubuntu with him @ the UN
[09:23] <troy_s> og?
[09:23] <troy_s> oliver?
[09:24] <n8k99> og marcel: brazil-port translator
[09:25] <n8k99> sometimes my name flashes by in the technical credits for hollywood
[09:25] <n8k99> ?
[09:25] <n8k99> no other clue
[09:27] <mhb> troy_s: aren't the users accustomed to the shutdown symbol and to the close button "x" symbol?
[09:27] <troy_s> indeed.
[09:27] <troy_s> which is why both will probably be an X
[09:28] <troy_s> as opposed to muddling the issue with learning new analogies with the power button.
[09:29] <mhb> troy_s: how can the user tell that the "X" sign top right does shutdown the system and not closes the current window?
[09:30] <mhb> troy_s: they might think that if those two are similar
[09:30] <mhb> n8k99: the baghira theme is nice, but you can't use that as a default for Kubuntu
[09:31] <mhb> n8k99: the buttons are too Mac-OS like
[09:31] <n8k99> yeah I know
[09:31] <n8k99> that's what I like about PoP 5 - it has the same basic feel
[09:32] <n8k99> just that the colors need to be corrected for kde
[09:32] <n8k99> and the buttons need to be, erm, made more easy to determine what they do
[09:32] <kwwii> btw. if anyone is interested in Oxygen, I am creating wiki pages (my favorite pastime) on http://developernew.kde.org/Projects/Oxygen
[09:37] <mhb> kwwii: great!
[09:37] <mhb> kwwii: thanks
[09:38] <mhb> kwwii: any screenshots of the windeco style yet?
[09:38] <mhb> n8k99: I guess the current windeco style is not that bad
[09:38] <mhb> n8k99: (Kubuntu)
[09:39] <kwwii> mhb: the code is in svn, but itis not very far yet
[09:40] <kwwii> and from day to day it either builds or it does not
[09:40] <mhb> kwwii: I've noticed, but I don't have KDE4 compiled yet
[09:40] <kwwii> ie. don't blame me
[09:40] <kwwii> :p
[09:40] <kwwii> yeah, it is only for kde4
[09:40] <mhb> n8k99: those same-looking buttons may be confusing for first-time users
[09:40] <mhb> n8k99: or former Windows users
[09:41] <n8k99> mhb: yes that's why I like having them colorcoded
[09:42] <mhb> n8k99: even then
[09:42] <mhb> n8k99: at least they are for me :o)
[09:43] <n8k99> mhb: I think that the current default buttons are a bit kludgey
[09:43] <n8k99> could just be me - I like watching the timetrial bike racers more than mountain bike racers
[09:44] <mhb> n8k99: kludgey?
[09:44] <mhb> n8k99: what do you mean by that?
[09:44] <n8k99> they are square with rounded corners and a symbol on the inside
[09:45] <n8k99> plus they are colored
[09:45] <n8k99> that's four elements per button
[09:45] <n8k99> no coded elements - visual elements
[09:45] <n8k99> s/not/no
[09:48] <mhb> n8k99: do you think that's too much?
[09:48] <n8k99> mhb: I actually do
[09:49] <mhb> n8k99: they aren't colored when not selected
[09:49] <n8k99> mhb: I'm just much more fond of a circle over a rounded corner square
[09:50] <n8k99> maybe even ovals
[09:51] <n8k99> it's really the button shape that drove me away from the default
[09:51] <n8k99> the rest of it is absolutely gorgeous
[09:51] <mhb> n8k99: you can do some proposals if you want
[09:51] <mhb> n8k99: but I think the symbols should stay
[09:52] <n8k99> ok
[09:52] <troy_s> mhb
[09:52] <troy_s> similar tasks should be similarly grouped
[09:52] <mhb> troy_s: yes?
[09:52] <troy_s> as in, closing a window is very much like closing a desktop session.
[09:53] <troy_s> the paradigm shift is only different based on the primary desktop window as compared to the standard windowing system.
[09:53] <mhb> troy_s: there are differences, for example the frequency of closing a window / closing a windowing system
[09:54] <mhb> troy_s: I close windows every day but I don't end the window session at all (I use the suspend to RAM shortcut)
[09:54] <troy_s> mhb, yes.  but in practical terms, if you teach a user to use the upper left corner to shut a window down, it isn't a large gap for an average user to figure out that the upper x will indicate similar functionality.
[09:54] <mhb> troy_s: I know users don't do that, but they end the session not so often
[09:55] <troy_s> again, the target audience is average computing skill based.
[09:56] <troy_s> to expand on that, the top panel would be reflective of the top window area on a standard window, and the lower panel is more 'status' based.
[09:57] <msikma> You're saying the top bar in Gnome should be like the top bar of a window?
[09:57] <troy_s> exactly
[09:57] <msikma> why
[09:58] <kwwii> we are working on the oxygen style and it will not include a seperation between the top "window decoration" and the toolbar...is that what you mean?
[09:58] <troy_s> functional panelling
[09:58] <troy_s> well the window that users use on a regular basis
[09:58] <troy_s> as in the top 'area' of a window
[09:58] <msikma> The top bar in gnome is not the top bar of a window. The top bar of a window is not the top bar in gnome.
[09:58] <troy_s> no, but the functionality is similar
[09:58] <msikma> So in that case you think we should just make them equal?
[09:59] <troy_s> paradigm speaking yes.
[09:59] <msikma> They will never have the same functionality.
[09:59] <msikma> They don't have it now and they won't have it in the future.
[09:59] <troy_s> there is 'affordance' with each
[09:59] <troy_s> well actually there are similar traits exhibited in each.
[09:59] <msikma> There's similarities between many different parts of an OS, but it's still important that they're different from each other.
[09:59] <troy_s> for example, the minimize / maximize buttons all deal with adjusting the current view of a window
[09:59] <troy_s> well sure, and a command line is probably the most extreme version of it.
[10:00] <troy_s> there is 'affordance' offered in all of the functionality
[10:00] <troy_s> meaning
[10:00] <troy_s> that a single click doesn't adversely affect anything in the top panel functionality.
[10:01] <troy_s> logical grouping would abide by the 'consistency' principle.
[10:02] <kwwii> sometimes I wonder who is kidding who
[10:02] <msikma> That doesn't mean we should equalize the top bar of gnome with the top bar of a window. Both have different functionality, and thus a different appearance. The fact that they have similarities won't make anyone believe that they are somehow related. Making it seem as though this is true will only confuse people needlessly.
[10:03] <troy_s> i don't believe so... if a menu is in the upper left of a window, one could easily expect a menu in the upper left of the top panel.
[10:04] <msikma> Certainly.
[10:04] <troy_s> likewise for closing.
[10:04] <troy_s> et.c
[10:04] <msikma> Even though I'm against the "close session" button at the top-right of the gnome toolbar, that too, I can understand.
[10:04] <msikma> It depends on how far you're willing to go.
[10:06] <troy_s> simply extending learned paradigms.
[10:06] <troy_s> its rather practical.
[10:07] <msikma> A widget's design should follow its functionality.
[10:07] <msikma> That, and no more or less.
[10:07] <msikma> Although it should be noted that a design may add additional functionality.