[02:40] <thadp> hey is edubuntu just ubuntu with more packages or is it a stripped down version of ubuntu with more educational apps?
[02:43] <thadp> nevermind found answer of FAQ
[09:07] <loic-m> Does anybody know why we add X-Ubuntu-Gettext-Domain=tuxtype to package tuxtype but not for tuxmath? Both are in main.
[09:19] <bencrisford> stgraber: ping
[10:10] <bencrisford> anyone know what the bzr branch is for edubuntu-docs?
[10:10] <bencrisford> im fixing a bug
[10:52] <bencrisford1> highvoltage: Ping
[11:01] <highvoltage> bencrisford1: pong
[11:03] <bencrisford> highvoltage: I fixed a bug in a documentation package
[11:03] <bencrisford> edubuntu
[11:04] <bencrisford> saw you on the contributor list
[11:04] <bencrisford> what do i do with my nice diff now?
[11:09] <bencrisford> in fact, how do i make a debdiff :S :'(
[12:48] <bencrisford1> I changed the wording of a paragraph in School Advocacy (edubuntu-docs) to fix a bug and now the motu recommend I upload it to my PPA and make a merge proposal
[12:49] <bencrisford1> but I don't know which files to upload
[12:49] <bencrisford1> just the .diff?  the .dsc?  .tar.gz?
[12:49] <bencrisford1> or shall I just upload the diff as a patch to the bug?
[12:49] <bencrisford1> =S
[12:49] <bencrisford1> highvoltage, stgraber: ?
[18:31] <LaserJock> Nubae: around?
[18:35] <bencrisford> Hey LaserJock
[18:35]  * bencrisford fixed his first bug
[18:35] <bencrisford> and it was in edubuntu
[18:35] <bencrisford> :)
[18:36] <LaserJock> bencrisford: I saw you filed a bug on edubuntu-docs
[18:36] <bencrisford> i didnt file it
[18:36] <bencrisford> i uploaded a patch :)
[18:36] <LaserJock> oh, I see
[18:36] <bencrisford> i subscribed you because i thought you were the maintainer of the branch
[18:36] <LaserJock> well, I don't think it needs any coordination with the doc team or translators
[18:36] <LaserJock> but thanks for the fix
[18:37] <bencrisford> :), it was really good to practice packaging
[18:38] <bencrisford> cos it was just as simple as the example on the HowToPatch
[18:41] <bencrisford> LaserJock: I noticed on the documentation team for edubuntu, the owner of the team - will something - i cant find him anywhere
[18:41] <bencrisford> its like hes disappeared
[18:41] <LaserJock> yes
[18:41] <LaserJock> he worked for Canonical at one point
[18:41] <bencrisford> perhaps the EC should restart the team?
[18:41] <LaserJock> but left over a year ago or so
[18:41] <bencrisford> oh
[18:41] <bencrisford> thats not good
[18:44] <LaserJock> !gcompris
[18:44] <LaserJock> !info gcompris
[18:54] <LaserJock> bencrisford: so I see you had some fun with #ubuntu-ops the other day :-)
[19:11] <asanchez> Hi everybody
[19:25] <bencrisford1> "bencrisford: so I see you had some fun with #ubuntu-ops the other day :-)"
[19:25] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Err, yeah :/ :P
[19:34] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Sorry about that btw ;)
[19:47] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: np, I didn't even know about their policy myself and I've been around for 4 years
[19:49] <bencrisford1> ok :)
[19:49] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: they told me to file bugs if I want more bot features
[19:49] <bencrisford1> ah ok
[19:49] <bencrisford1> How long do ubuntu membership meetings take these days?
[19:49] <LaserJock> oh gosh, I have no idea
[19:50] <LaserJock> I haven't been to one in years
[19:50] <bencrisford1> stgraber: ping
[19:50] <bencrisford1> ok
[19:50] <bencrisford1> well, its just im 6th for tuesday
[19:50] <bencrisford1> and i can only stay an hour :S
[19:50] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: usually if you say up front that you have a limited time they'll try to make sure they get to you by then
[19:51] <bencrisford1> Ok, ill make sure i let them know
[19:51] <bencrisford1> thanks ;)
[19:52] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: A core-edubuntu-doc team might be useful.  The team could have commit access, so it would be easier to fix bugs
[19:52] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: well, I'm glad you got to do some packaging with that doc bug, I'm not going to be able to upload it
[19:52] <bencrisford1> Ill talk to mdke :)
[19:52] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: we don't actually ship the Advocacy Doc and we're not going to do an SRU just for that
[19:53] <bencrisford1> ok
[19:53] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: *but*, it really should go into the bzr branch
[19:53] <bencrisford1> well im glad i got to do it, and im glad ive shown the world that bencrisford *can* package :D!
[19:53] <LaserJock> unfortunately I've removed myself from ~ubuntu-core-doc so I don't have commit access to my own branches :-)
[19:53] <Nubae> LaserJock: hi
[19:53] <Nubae> wasss up?
[19:54] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: If you had a word with the doc peoples they'd give it back
[19:54] <LaserJock> Nubae: I wondered how big your Live Sugar disk is
[19:54] <Nubae> 400m
[19:54] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: well, I don't really want it back :-)
[19:54] <Nubae> but we packaged pretty much everything
[19:54] <bencrisford1> :P fair enough LaserJock
[19:54] <LaserJock> Nubae: no gnome? just sugar?
[19:55] <Nubae> so all activities, all of sugar
[19:55] <Nubae> a lot of gnome too, since sugar relies on its backend
[19:55] <LaserJock> do you use GDM?
[19:55] <Nubae> evince, gstreamer, gdk
[19:55] <LaserJock> or does it just boot straight into Sugar?
[19:55] <Nubae> no gdm no
[19:55] <Nubae> startx straight into matchbox
[19:56] <Nubae> starting with 0.86 though, sugar moves to metacity
[19:56]  * jussi01 waves to LaserJock
[19:56] <LaserJock> hi jussi01
[19:56] <Nubae> anyway, we've got it all working very nicely now... only activity doesnt work properly is Read
[19:56] <Nubae> strangely it works on the full -edu dvd, but not on the minimal sugar live cd
[19:57] <Nubae> I'm missing something somewhere, but not sure what
[19:57]  * jussi01 sadly missed the meeting the other day, are there logs/summary around?
[19:57] <LaserJock> Nubae: did you have to patch any of the non-Sugar stuff? like abiword or anything
[19:57] <Nubae> still its not bad... Sugar is about 100 packages, and its being nicely maintained
[19:57] <bencrisford1> jussi01: Should be on the mailing list ;)
[19:57] <Nubae> yeah, we patched  a couple of things
[19:57] <Nubae> but it didnt requrie much to get it all to work
[19:57] <Nubae> its mostly out there already
[19:58] <bencrisford1> jussi01: If you aren't a subscriber ill find the post in the archive for you ?
[19:58] <bencrisford1> :)
[19:58] <jussi01> please
[19:58] <Nubae> patched sugar to work with small screens by setting it to 72% of its original size if res =< 600 height
[19:58] <LaserJock> Nubae: so there's roughly 100 packages for Sugar? and we've got what, like maybe 20?
[19:59] <Nubae> heh, I think we might have less than that, and there's probably like 150 when u count dependencies and activities
[19:59] <bencrisford1> jussi01: What meeting would that be?  The council meeting or the one a week or so ago?
[19:59] <Nubae> I packaged each activity as its own package
[19:59] <Nubae> so activities alone there are 60
[19:59] <LaserJock> hmm
[19:59] <Nubae> then there are some meta packages that include a lot of stuff
[19:59] <LaserJock> do you think those will be grouped together at some point?
[19:59] <Nubae> like glucose (sugar foundation) and sucrose
[19:59] <LaserJock> I would think most people would want to have the full sets
[19:59] <LaserJock> yeah
[20:00] <Nubae> we had to do patches for xulrunner
[20:00] <Nubae> for gstreamer
[20:00] <Nubae> for xypcom
[20:00] <Nubae> for evince, abiword, python bindings
[20:00] <LaserJock> so you have your own packages for those in the Sugar repo?
[20:00] <Nubae> when I think of it, its a lot of work
[20:00] <Nubae> yep
[20:01] <bencrisford1> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2009-May/002898.html - jussi01: thats the meeting minutes for the one the friday before last
[20:01] <Nubae> You can take a look at the X11: Sugar repo
[20:01] <Nubae> that should contain a lot of stuff
[20:01] <bencrisford1> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2009-May/002903.html - jussi01: thats the council meeting last week :)
[20:01] <Nubae> and the .kiwi file describes the packages used to build the iso
[20:01] <Nubae> let me see if I can give u an overview
[20:01] <LaserJock> sbalneav: around?
[20:01] <bencrisford1> jussi01:  they're the only ones i can find in the archive
[20:02] <Nubae> anyway, we are pretty much done now, so if/when u like I can start with buntu
[20:02] <LaserJock> Nubae: a first step could be to have oBS spit out source packages and just upload those to a PPA
[20:02] <LaserJock> Nubae: just to see how it works out on an Ubuntu system
[20:03] <LaserJock> Nubae: we can then refine them if needed and work on getting non-Sugar patches (abiword, xypcom, etc.) into Ubuntu proper
[20:03] <Nubae> yeah thats where most of the work is going to go I believe
[20:04] <Nubae> but... openSUSE is a geat model
[20:04] <LaserJock> if oBS does a good job of spitting out source packages we could automate it
[20:04] <Nubae> pretty much everything that could be done, has been done there
[20:04] <Nubae> ok
[20:04] <LaserJock> but if it's going to take tweaking a lot we'll need to fork it I guess
[20:04] <Nubae> http://en.opensuse.org/Sugar
[20:04] <Nubae> thats what we got
[20:05] <Nubae> forking is going to be required I think, but come newer releases u can always join again
[20:05] <Nubae> the debian maintainer Jonas is taking things much more seriously now
[20:05] <Nubae> mostly because he sees whats been done with Mandriva and openSUSE, both distros didnt even have sugar a couple months ago
[20:06] <bencrisford1> "drop by the IRC Freenode #opensuse-edu channel and talk to Cyberorg or Nubae. "  -- Nubae's famous :) :P
[20:06] <LaserJock> righ
[20:06] <LaserJock> Nubae: that's one of the nice things about FLOSS, sometimes people just need a kick in the butt from a "competitor" to get them going
[20:07] <LaserJock> Debian (and hence most things Debian-based) tend to be not-so-quick with these kinds of things
[20:07] <Nubae> hehe, yeah strangely that worked very well with Jonas
[20:07] <LaserJock> but usually Debian is very good technically and very thorough
[20:07] <Nubae> in the beginning he was like, nah, forget it, dont feel like packaging 0.84, not gonna
[20:08] <Nubae> then around him stuff started moving, without him
[20:08] <Nubae> and he quickly jumped the train
[20:08] <Nubae> the sad thing is, in the process we lost the uuntu sugar team
[20:08] <Nubae> *ubuntu
[20:09] <LaserJock> well, hopefully if things can get back on track people will re-join
[20:09] <LaserJock> but yeah, there's always these silly political things that happen
[20:09] <Nubae> we'll see, I think it needs someone thats gonna be realtively permenant
[20:09] <Nubae> and aploticial
[20:10] <Nubae> thats what really put me off debian... the politics... otherwise it would be my distro of choice
[20:10] <Nubae> fortunately, the negative parts of debian policy are left at the ubuntu door, and good parts taken
[20:10] <LaserJock> luckily the groups I work with in Debian are pretty good that way
[20:10] <Nubae> so we get a relatively forward thinking, yet still solid distro
[20:11] <LaserJock> yeah, there's a place for both
[20:11] <Nubae> openSUSE is just too wild in that sense
[20:11] <LaserJock> politics isn't all bad in a way
[20:11] <LaserJock> Debian has been a great place for thrashing out important things like "what is free software?", etc.
[20:11] <Nubae> well, it has a place... but not in my world.. I rather spend my time working on actually getting the job done
[20:12] <LaserJock> but for those of use that just want to get something done it's nice to have a place for it
[20:12] <Nubae> don't be distracted by shiny objects... working code first! :-)
[20:14] <Nubae> there is this new distro called tin hat linux... everything launches from ram.... so its blazingly fast... takes 5 minutes to start up, but after that its like the fastest distro u ever saw
[20:14] <LaserJock> heh
[20:14] <LaserJock> how much RAM do you need?
[20:14] <Nubae> 2 gigs
[20:15] <LaserJock> not bad
[20:15] <Nubae> but its been done for security reasons
[20:15] <Nubae> so people cant run off with sensitive stuff
[20:15] <Nubae> the speed is just an added benefit
[20:15] <LaserJock> right
[20:18] <bencrisford1> im gonna try and rescue my old laptop by installing xubuntu on it
[20:21] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: what are the specs?
[20:32] <bencrisford1> dunno LaserJock
[20:32] <bencrisford1> 256MB ram
[20:32] <bencrisford1> 20GB hdd
[20:33] <LaserJock> you might want something even lighter with 256 MB
[20:34] <jussi01> !fluxbuntu
[20:34] <jussi01> maybe?
[20:34] <bencrisford1> well ubuntu just about starts on it
[20:34] <bencrisford1> 6.10
[20:34] <bencrisford1> but x doesnt always work
[20:34] <bencrisford1> i think xubuntu *should* work
[20:34] <bencrisford1> if it doesnt ill try fluxbuntu, thanks jussi01 ;) :)
[20:35] <LaserJock> I'd go with crunchbang over fluxbuntu I think
[20:35] <LaserJock> but that's maybe because I don't particularly like fluxbox
[20:35] <jussi01> theres also lubuntu, but Ive not tried that
[20:35] <jussi01> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubuntu
[20:35] <bencrisford1> oh i read about that today actually
[20:35] <bencrisford1> :)
[20:36] <bencrisford1> well the xubuntu install is going a helluvalot better than the ubuntu one went
[20:42]  * bencrisford1 takes that back...
[20:42] <LaserJock> are you installing via live CDs?
[20:42] <bencrisford1> yep
[20:42] <LaserJock> that's probably not going to work very well
[20:43] <bencrisford1> :'(, i just want an ubuntu that works for it :P
[20:43] <LaserJock> you want to use the Alternate CDs for installing
[20:43] <LaserJock> LiveCDs take lots and lots of RAM
[20:43] <LaserJock> I think Ubuntu's LiveCD needs ~ 384MB or so
[20:43] <bencrisford1> lol i wish you'd told me that after i spent an hour downloading it :P
[20:43] <bencrisford1> before*
[20:44] <LaserJock> sorry, I just assumed
[20:44] <LaserJock> I rarely use the Desktop CDs
[20:44] <bencrisford1> lol, its ok :), no need to be sorry :P
[20:44] <bencrisford1> im glad i have a xubuntu cd anyway
[20:56] <Nubae> actually the specs make it a great thin client
[20:58] <bencrisford1> Well i just spoke to the #lubuntu peoples :)
[20:58] <bencrisford1> they say itll be better when its complete
[20:58] <bencrisford1> so ill give em a hand with development i guess :)
[21:02] <Nubae> either that or you use it to test edubuntu as a thin client :p
[21:07] <bencrisford> If you guys were on the membership board, how many testimonials would it take on my profile for me to be considered would you say?
[21:09] <bencrisford> LaserJock: Nubae: jussi01: ?
[21:09] <LaserJock> hmm
[21:09] <jussi01> depends on the testimonials, and content of what you have done.
[21:09] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:10] <bencrisford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenCrisford - LaserJock, jussi01
[21:10] <LaserJock> bencrisford: btw, mdke just made a edubuntu-karmic doc branch
[21:11] <LaserJock> bencrisford: so if you make your changes for the Advocacy doc there, and request a merge then you can mark that bug as fixed
[21:11] <bencrisford> LaserJock: I was planning on uploading my patch to my PPA and them requesting a merge
[21:12] <bencrisford> but i couldnt work out what to upload :(
[21:12] <LaserJock> bencrisford: no PPA needed
[21:12] <bencrisford> oh ?
[21:12] <LaserJock> bencrisford: the docs are done in bzr
[21:12] <bencrisford> yeah, but i wont have commit access
[21:12] <LaserJock> the .debs are totally different in a sense
[21:12] <bencrisford> the .diff was a bzr diff
[21:12] <bencrisford> i got the bzr branch and then changed it and did a bzr diff to get the .diff
[21:12] <LaserJock> ok
[21:13] <LaserJock> so make sure to do it on the new karmic branch
[21:13] <LaserJock> and there is a specific syntax for bug closings
[21:14] <bencrisford> so where do i upload the files, and what files to i upload? =S
[21:14] <LaserJock> so in the changelog write what you changed and then do: Closes LP: bug #210771
[21:14] <LaserJock> so email the .diff to the doc list
[21:14] <LaserJock> asking them to apply it to edubuntu-karmic
[21:15] <bencrisford> Ah ok
[21:15] <LaserJock> bencrisford: does that make sense?
[21:15] <bencrisford> yeah :)
[21:15] <bencrisford> thanks
[21:22] <bencrisford> LaserJock: edubuntu-docs_9.04.1ubuntu2.diff - an appropriate filename for the diff?
[21:22] <LaserJock> well
[21:22] <LaserJock> that's more like a debdiff
[21:23] <LaserJock> you're just making a change, not an upload
[21:23] <LaserJock> so I'd maybe name it something that describes the change
[21:23] <bencrisford> well, thats what was on the packaging tutorial :P
[21:23] <bencrisford> what do i call it?
[21:23] <LaserJock> well, but you're not packaging
[21:23] <bencrisford> :(
[21:23] <LaserJock> you're more like making an upstream change
[21:23] <nubae> god, right click and get terminal option is such a stupid thing, but its so incredibly highly useful for me
[21:24] <nubae> in Fedora to open the terminal u have to go in the systems menu... its like totally hidden away... almost as bad as windows
[21:24] <nubae> ubuntu is ok, but openSUSE makes it the most logical... right click on the desktop, get option for terminal....
[21:25] <LaserJock> yeah, that would be nice
[21:25] <bencrisford> i have a popup terminal thats on my awn
[21:26] <bencrisford> its just like a little bubble coming off my awn when i click it
[21:26] <nubae> right but I mean as a distro default
[21:26] <bencrisford> yeah i know
[21:26] <LaserJock> bencrisford: let me pastebin what I think your diff should look like
[21:26] <bencrisford> ok ty
[21:27] <bencrisford> nubae: You tried dos emulator?
[21:27] <bencrisford> i can imagine windows veterans loving it
[21:27] <nubae> dos emulator, in linux?
[21:27] <bencrisford> yeah
[21:27] <bencrisford> its like a command prompt
[21:27] <nubae> well its useful to play some of those old adventure games
[21:27] <bencrisford> and you can manipulate your ~ through it too
[21:29] <bencrisford> i forot all my dos though :/
[21:29] <nubae> dos is mostly useless
[21:29] <bencrisford> yeah
[21:29] <bencrisford> but its quite cool
[21:29] <bencrisford> having the emulator
[21:29] <bencrisford> it would be useful for windows veterans turned linux
[21:30] <bencrisford> LaserJock: Is the one I uploaded to the bug not correct :/?
[21:30] <LaserJock> it's ok
[21:30] <LaserJock> I mean, technically it's fine
[21:31] <LaserJock> it's just there's more to it in this case
[21:31] <LaserJock> stuff that you wouldn't necessarily know
[21:32] <bencrisford> ok
[21:34] <LaserJock> http://paste.ubuntu.com/184540/
[21:34] <LaserJock> bencrisford: ^^
[21:34] <bencrisford> ty
[21:34] <bencrisford> ill check it out
[21:39] <bencrisford> LaserJock: I didn't go too far off track with my changelog as far as i can see :)
[21:39] <bencrisford> mdke suggested I add the other suggestinos b the reporter
[21:40] <LaserJock> nope, not at all
[21:40] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:40] <LaserJock> I just saw his email
[21:40] <bencrisford> oh :)
[21:40] <bencrisford> was it to the doc list?
[21:40] <nubae> so LaserJock, when do I get considered for membership again?
[21:41] <nubae> btw, something like this is very relevant short term for edubuntu packages... so we can at least show the public that things are moving ahead: http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Applications/Desktop
[21:41] <LaserJock> bencrisford: no, the comment on the bug report
[21:41] <bencrisford> oh
[21:41] <bencrisford> yeah
[21:41] <nubae> nicely split into subject areas too
[21:42] <LaserJock> nubae: yes, very nice indeed!
[21:42] <nubae> including nice little icons for DE (desktop environment)
[21:42] <nubae> good thing about opensuse wiki system is how easy it is to edit
[21:42] <LaserJock> what I'd like to have is a place for everybody to contribute to something like that
[21:42] <nubae> u should check that out some time
[21:43] <nubae> right... it should be as easy as possible for people to add/rate.... Moodle would be one such way
[21:43] <LaserJock> yeah, novell has probably *the* best docs and doc systems around
[21:43] <nubae> but even that is too much work... it needs to be practically getting very little info, but allowing almost immediate contribution
[21:43] <LaserJock> I don't find Moodle very easy
[21:43] <LaserJock> I'd much rather just have a wiki page
[21:43] <nubae> yeah its not unfortunately
[21:43] <nubae> powerful, but steep learning curve
[21:44] <nubae> for Sugar, they've taken out about 80% of its options
[21:44] <nubae> yeah for this agreed, wiki page... but just overall, we should have as few and as simple tools as possible
[21:44] <LaserJock> yep
[21:44] <nubae> But moodle comes to mind becuase if properly setup its a one stop shop that is very inviting
[21:45] <LaserJock> yeah, it's just not trivial for us to set up
[21:45] <nubae> anyway, take a look at that wiki page, and we can probably rip most of it
[21:45] <LaserJock> although with the Learning Project setting up an instance maybe there will be more moodle around Ubuntu
[21:46] <nubae> well, otherwise we'll loose out to suse... where they set up Moodle for me about an hour after I suggested it
[21:46] <nubae> am now populating it... so they've got their heads in the right place... once its done, I'll point u to it, so u can take a look
[21:46] <LaserJock> well, I think openSUSE must not be quite the target that Ubuntu is
[21:47] <LaserJock> for a long time we had a no-PHP policy
[21:47] <LaserJock> and that's been slowly weakening
[21:47] <LaserJock> but we still get hacked
[21:47] <nubae> btw, u remember I did that desktop background with the penguins learning that polar bears are not food, but rather they are food to polar bears?
[21:47] <LaserJock> oh yeah, I ran across that on my laptop just yesterday I think
[21:47] <nubae> u still wanna use that for a release?
[21:47] <nubae> its quite a funny one
[21:48] <nubae> I ask because otherwise I'll give it to the openSUSE community, although I'd rather see it running on edubuntu
[21:48] <LaserJock> yeah, we should do something with it
[21:48] <LaserJock> well, can't both use it?
[21:48] <nubae> I can jaz it up somewhat
[21:49] <nubae> well, its more inline with ubuntu colours, and I was thinking about edubuntu when I created it, so default it will be edubuntu... but sure, people can install on whatever
[21:49] <nubae> u have any suggestions for it? ideas?
[21:49] <nubae> should I make a theme to go with it? splash, bootup?
[21:49] <nubae> icon set?
[21:49] <bencrisford> LaserJock: What should I call the .diff file?
[21:49] <LaserJock> well, we need all of those
[21:50] <nubae> the cool thing is I have one of those wacom cintiq tablets
[21:50] <LaserJock> bencrisford: advocacy_bug210771.diff
[21:50] <nubae> so its quite easy and lots of fun to create this stuff
[21:50] <bencrisford> nubae: I'd quite like to see that background, have a link?
[21:50] <bencrisford> LaserJock: ty :)
[21:50] <nubae> so tell me in order of importance whats needed?
[21:50] <LaserJock> icons are tough to get a full set
[21:50] <nubae> bencrisford: let me check
[21:50] <nubae> LaserJock: I know... but we can start via priorities
[21:50] <LaserJock> wallpaper + gdm is most important I think
[21:50] <bencrisford> I can help with GDM
[21:51] <bencrisford> ive got a bit of experience
[21:51] <nubae> ah yes... login... ok, will work on that next
[21:51] <LaserJock> then gnome splash, gtk/metacity/compiz theme
[21:51] <bencrisford> we could get an existing one
[21:51] <nubae> bencrisford: oh ok.. perhaps u can port the wallpaper to gdm somehow
[21:51] <nubae> LaserJock: u have a link so he can see it?
[21:51] <LaserJock> one sec
[21:51] <bencrisford> if we got an existing ubuntu GDM, and plugged the edubuntu artwork
[21:51] <bencrisford> would be easier :)
[21:52] <bencrisford> just need to change the .desktop
[21:52] <bencrisford> of the existing theme
[21:52] <nubae> yeah, the colour set is pretty much inline with ubuntu already... the wallpaper is made to evoke an emotional response of laughter, which I think it does quite well
[21:52] <bencrisford> aww i wanna see it :D
[21:53] <nubae> I wonder whether we can make mouse pointer set with a similar response
[21:53] <nubae> so like the same teacher penguin pointing or something
[21:53] <nubae> and instead of an X, u get a polar bear eating a penguin
[21:53] <bencrisford> :P
[21:53] <nubae> and instead of a tick mark, u get a penguin eating a tasty fish
[21:54] <bencrisford> LaserJock: So I send the .diff in an email to the<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:54] <nubae> it would make people laugh for sure
[21:54] <bencrisford> but they would need to be big
[21:54] <bencrisford> bulky
[21:54] <bencrisford> so people could see whats in them
[21:54] <nubae> yeah true... still a penguin pointing is possible
[21:54] <nubae> just the penguins arm
[21:54] <bencrisford> yeah
[21:54] <LaserJock> bencrisford: actually, since mdke already commented on it, just attach it to the bug report
[21:54] <bencrisford> ok :)
[21:55] <LaserJock> hmmpf, now I can't find the wallpaper
[21:57] <LaserJock> oh, I think it was in my email
[21:58]  * LaserJock chuckles
[21:58] <nubae> yeah need to upload it some place... but forgot my flickr user and pass
[21:59] <nubae> we could do a set of funny educational ones like that
[21:59] <nubae> one where learning math is important or there be dire consequences ahead for the penguin
[21:59] <LaserJock> http://laserjock.us/files/edubuntu/penguin-edubuntu.png
[21:59] <nubae> like 20 penguins + one seal, not so bad... 20 seals and one penguin not so good
[22:00] <nubae> would just require switching the blackboard picture to make some more funny ones
[22:00] <LaserJock> given that we're not stretched for space I think having some sets like that would be great
[22:00] <nubae> maybe one can be a windows logo with an X, a penguin with a tick
[22:01] <nubae> but we make the penguin a female ;-)
[22:01] <nubae> that would have some internal humour to it
[22:01] <LaserJock> nubae: I'd work with the Ubuntu Artwork team maybe a bit to get their input, etc.
[22:02] <nubae> well, to be honest I think thats too much input, I was hoping just to throw some ideas around here
[22:02] <nubae> and we can come up with something, then maybe after the work is done, pass it by the artwork team
[22:02] <LaserJock> they're going to know more about doing the themes, etc. though
[22:02] <nubae> but otherwise no work is gonna be done
[22:02] <LaserJock> sure
[22:02] <nubae> u know how it is
[22:02] <LaserJock> yeah
[22:03] <nubae> well the idea here is that it be an educational theme
[22:03] <nubae> have u seen the opensuse-edu themes?
[22:03] <LaserJock> don't go to them with "what do we do?" but I mean like having them do a review of it to see if they have any suggestions on improvement
[22:03] <LaserJock> yeah, it looks pretty nice
[22:04] <nubae> http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Live/Screenshots
[22:04] <nubae> ah yeah will do that for sure
[22:05] <nubae> in terms of, if I was to tackle icons... which are the important ones... whats on the desktop to begin with, and I guess file manipulation/navigation?
[22:05] <LaserJock> yeah
[22:05] <Svenstaro> Is UDS over now?
[22:05] <LaserJock> yep
[22:06] <nubae> and do we stick to traditional ideas for themes, what age target group?
[22:06] <LaserJock> nubae: what you might do is do a review of icons to pick out ones that are particularly un-educational
[22:06] <Svenstaro> No update on mailing list yet :/ Want to be updated
[22:06] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: update of what?
[22:06] <nubae> ah right... good diea
[22:06] <nubae> idea
[22:06] <LaserJock> nubae: some are pretty ok, but others would be good to replace
[22:06] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, update on the official status of Eduubntu and UDS updates about Edubuntu
[22:06] <Svenstaro> I really want to know where we stand.
[22:07] <LaserJock> nubae: what I'd ideally like to see is an artwork package for each of -preschool, -primary, -secondary, -tertiary
[22:07] <nubae> well if we think about the general idea being school books, pencils, crayons, etc... I'm sure with that in mind we can come up with something
[22:07] <nubae> oh ok, makes sense... so maybe lets tackle that first
[22:07] <LaserJock> yep
[22:07] <nubae> wallpapers for 3 areas
[22:07] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, there have been some updates throughout UDS
[22:07] <nubae> so getting funnier/whittier the older u go
[22:08] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: right now people are still traveling
[22:08] <nubae> preschool has to be something quite universal, almost a foto I geuss
[22:08] <nubae> guess
[22:08] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: but is there something in particular you want?
[22:08] <nubae> I think the existing one fits well with primary
[22:08] <nubae> secondary need something a bit 'kewler'
[22:08] <LaserJock> nubae: actually I would probably reverse it
[22:09] <nubae> yeah see what u mean... tertiary is probably the most generic/boring
[22:09] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, did Cannocials official stance change or is it still "Do whatever you want."?
[22:09] <LaserJock> the problem we often had in the past is that secondary and tertiary educators feel the wallpaper is to juvenile
[22:09] <LaserJock> they want a more professional look
[22:09] <nubae> yeah, which is why we need the funny/whit aspect to it
[22:10] <nubae> but thats just one side... I understand what u mean
[22:10] <Svenstaro> Why wouldn't you want a multi-purpose skin/wallpaper anyway?
[22:10] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: I've not heard anything from Canonical, I wouldn't expect to hear anything for a while
[22:10] <nubae> well, thats highly individual I think
[22:10] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: but it isn't terribly relevant for us now I don't think
[22:10] <nubae> uni person does not want the same wallpaper as a preschooler ;-)
[22:10] <LaserJock> right
[22:11] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, so we are free to do whatever we'll come up with and use Canonical's existing resources?
[22:11] <nubae> I wish ubuntu had a mascot though... like opensuse has the gekko
[22:11] <nubae> we can do so much with that
[22:11] <LaserJock> so giving people some age-appropriate choices would be awesome, IMO
[22:11] <Svenstaro> Well make an Edubuntu mascot.
[22:11] <nubae> ok, so well I'm gonna try making 3 more wallpapers for tonight... I have an idea for preschoolers that might work... based on creepie crawlies
[22:11] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, we've pretty much always been free to do whatever we come up with, within certain parameters
[22:12] <Svenstaro> Ok, what should I do now?
[22:12] <Svenstaro> Get to know caspar?
[22:12] <LaserJock> you can if you want
[22:12] <nubae> Svenstaro: yeah indeed
[22:12] <nubae> study the methodoloy of creating live cds/usb sticks
[22:12] <LaserJock> I think we're going to stick with an Addon for Karmic
[22:12] <nubae> and how to seperate components
[22:12] <nubae> right
[22:12] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, aw come on.
[22:12] <nubae> we shold move with the LTSes
[22:13] <Svenstaro> Karmic+1 is LTS?
[22:13] <LaserJock> I think so
[22:13] <LaserJock> it's every 2 years
[22:13] <Svenstaro> That's in 11 months then?
[22:13] <LaserJock> no
[22:13] <LaserJock> in 1 year
[22:13] <LaserJock> bah
[22:13] <LaserJock> sorry
[22:13] <LaserJock> yeah
[22:14] <Svenstaro> That's in 11 months then.
[22:14] <Svenstaro> Okay, let's so we're ready for next bunch of Linux conventions, that'd be great.
[22:14] <Svenstaro> LinuxTag, Froscon, Chemnitz Linux days.
[22:14] <LaserJock> so I think we could maybe have some test disks for karmic that'd be great
[22:15] <LaserJock> *if we could
[22:15] <Svenstaro> To be honest, I don't think it would matter too much which release we'll spin it off from for now.
[22:15] <Svenstaro> I will go with +1 for now, though, for compatibility.
[22:15] <LaserJock> well
[22:15] <Svenstaro> Is alpha 1 out yet, btw?
[22:15] <LaserJock> I mean we have to test this stuff out *before* we get to the release
[22:16] <Svenstaro> Right, I just finished RC2 of my current distro, so I have plenty of time for Edubuntu now. I'll get started right now.
[22:16] <LaserJock> I'm guessing it's going to take quite some time to get everything worked out
[22:16] <LaserJock> both technically and in trying to get the hosting put together
[22:17] <Svenstaro> Are we going to use all the pre-existing facilities?
[22:17] <LaserJock> yes
[22:18] <LaserJock> my rough idea would be to have the addon as official .iso for Karmic
[22:18] <LaserJock> but have unofficial .isos available somewhere
[22:19] <LaserJock> and for karmic replace the addon .iso with the full distro .iso/image
[22:19] <LaserJock> bah
[22:19] <LaserJock> Karmic+1
[22:20] <LaserJock> I don't know if that's exactly what highvoltage and stgraber discussed or not
[22:20] <Svenstaro> Do I get super-special-awesome rights on the Edubuntu Launchpad release team?
[22:20] <LaserJock> there is no such team
[22:20] <Svenstaro> Is there ANY active official team?
[22:20] <LaserJock> for what?
[22:20] <LaserJock> Edubuntu?
[22:21] <Svenstaro> Yes.
[22:21] <LaserJock> there's ~edubuntu-members, ~edubuntu-council, ~edubuntu-bugs, and ~edubuntu-dev right now that are active
[22:22] <LaserJock> but in Ubuntu the release team is essentially centralized
[22:23] <LaserJock> slangasek is *the* Ubuntu Release Manager, who oversees Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Netbook Remix, and Mythbuntu I believe
[22:23] <LaserJock> essentially anything that's on cdimage.ubuntu.com or releases.ubuntu.com
[22:23] <Svenstaro> So if I were to build the isos, I'd report to him?
[22:23] <LaserJock> well no
[22:24] <LaserJock> he builds the isos essentially
[22:25] <LaserJock> we can provide patches to the build tools and we determine the package contents of the .isos
[22:25] <LaserJock> but the builds themselves, etc. are done by the Ubuntu release team
[22:25] <Svenstaro> Duh :/ Makes it somewhat harder I guess.
[22:25] <LaserJock> in some ways
[22:26] <LaserJock> on the other hand, we don't have to worry about building things
[22:26] <Svenstaro> Fair enough.
[22:27] <Svenstaro> I wouldn't mind uploading 700mb now and then. Oh by the way, did we decide the release *needs* to fit onto a CD?
[22:27] <LaserJock> it can't fit on a CD
[22:27] <LaserJock> for a full distro
[22:27] <LaserJock> I think 1GB is bare minimum
[22:28] <Svenstaro> With LZMA it *could* but it would be somewhat slow for older system anyway.
[22:28] <LaserJock> even with LZMA I'm not sure
[22:28] <Svenstaro> But anyway, I like the idea of having some freedom in regards to space.
[22:29] <LaserJock> but I'm just not sure how it's going to all work
[22:29] <Svenstaro> In which regard?
[22:30] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that the release team is going to like use duplicating 700MB worth of stuff
[22:30] <nubae> well they wont, but others are already doing that
[22:30] <LaserJock> I mean, there were definitely reasons we went to an addon
[22:30] <nubae> ubuntu-studio comes to mind
[22:30] <LaserJock> true
[22:30] <LaserJock> so I think the key is to make the duplication worth it
[22:30] <nubae> right
[22:30] <LaserJock> I don't think Canonical minds hosting things
[22:30] <Svenstaro> I don't really care too much about that, to be honest. I can host my own ISOs for now anyway.
[22:30] <LaserJock> they just want it to be worth it
[22:31] <LaserJock> it sounds like the addon .iso wasn't getting much demand
[22:31] <LaserJock> and so they replaced it with Ubuntu Netbook Remix
[22:32] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, for Edubuntu I think it's *the* biggest concern for the future
[22:32] <LaserJock> I think having a full distro is going to be important, but if we can't host it it's not worth much
[22:32] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, come again? Hosting ISOs is the biggest concern for us?
[22:33] <LaserJock> I think it could be in terms of the future
[22:33] <Svenstaro> Many people here can provide mirrors, we have bittorrent available to us, I have my dedicated servers, I don't think it'd be a showstopper at all.
[22:34] <LaserJock> well, but we haven't had mirrors
[22:34] <Svenstaro> Or am I missing something?
[22:34] <LaserJock> and we still need Canonical to host the builds
[22:34] <LaserJock> which I don't think is a big deal
[22:34] <Svenstaro> Don't think too much of that, really. We can ask the usual universities for hosting as well.
[22:35] <nubae> heh, what do u think about this for secondary or tertiary... penguin falls asleep under an iceberg and a seal falls on his head
[22:35] <Svenstaro> We will use Ubiquity I assume?
[22:35] <LaserJock> in any case, somebody needs to talk with the release team about it
[22:36] <nubae> or maybe a whole load fish
[22:36] <LaserJock> I'm not sure about Ubiquity
[22:36] <nubae> so its like newton... but penguin based
[22:36] <LaserJock> nubae: maybe, I'd have to see it
[22:36] <LaserJock> ohhh
[22:36] <LaserJock> heh, yeah, that'd kinda be funny
[22:36] <nubae> tertiary could be einstein penguin
[22:36] <LaserJock> yeah!
[22:36] <nubae> discovering relativty or something
[22:37] <Svenstaro> nubae, great ideas there.
[22:37] <nubae> he could discover himself in an alternate dimension
[22:37] <Svenstaro> A bearded penguin *shudder*
[22:37] <nubae> well I'll get drawing.. The newton one will be funny for sure
[22:37] <LaserJock> I'm kinda of conflicted about using a LiveCD for install or not
[22:37] <nubae> whats more like an apple?
[22:37] <Svenstaro> You could also have the usual atom-electron representation with small penguins orbiting the atom instead of electron dots.
[22:37] <nubae> I want to make sure people get it
[22:38] <nubae> Svenstaro: yeah, thats not too hard to do
[22:38] <LaserJock> traditionally we've used the Alternate CD for installing LTSP
[22:38] <nubae> and preschool maybe just penguins dancing around
[22:38] <nubae> I'll see what I come up with, any ideas for alternative to an apple?
[22:39] <nubae> I guess a big fish is the closest
[22:39] <LaserJock> a sardine looking thing would maybe work
[22:39] <nubae> yeah
[22:39] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, we wanna make it worth it, don't we? Why should we keep it to Ubuntu alternate? I don't like that idea at all. This time, there should be a *clear* separation of Edubuntu and the rest.
[22:39] <nubae> and he could have his mouth open... snoring like
[22:39] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: right, there were just technical issues
[22:40] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: nobody had yet been able to do a LiveCd install of LTSP
[22:40] <Svenstaro> I'm about to figure out everything now.
[22:40] <Svenstaro> We shall be the first men on this kind of moon then.
[22:40] <nubae> ok, so bearded einstein penguin with atom-electron diagram showing small dancing penguins
[22:40] <Svenstaro> nubae, more like electron penguins in "swimming pose" with their wings to their body, like they are diving at great speed
[22:41] <LaserJock> initially I wanted to have 1 .iso be a LiveCD with no installer for demos
[22:41] <LaserJock> and then have another installable .iso either as an Addon or Alternate Cd
[22:41] <nubae> Svenstaro: yeah, and they could be like riding a wave...
[22:41] <nubae> or particles
[22:41] <nubae> :-)
[22:41] <nubae> grin
[22:43] <Svenstaro> Is there a post tertiary skin?
[22:43] <Svenstaro> Could be string penguin vibrations or something along those lines.
[22:43] <LaserJock> we haven't gotten to post-tertiary
[22:43] <LaserJock> in face, we haven't even really gotten to tertiary
[22:43] <LaserJock> I was thinking about the need to focus down to start with
[22:44] <nubae> hehe, for preschool, we can play with the evolution theme, except from fish to man, we do fish to penguin
[22:44] <Svenstaro> Should we really keep separating apps in that manner? No critizism, just a call to reflect on that earlier decision.
[22:44] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, Jaunty was the first release to do that
[22:44] <LaserJock> it's a common request that we make things more age-appropriate
[22:45] <nubae> sorry ape to man becomes chicken to penguin or something
[22:45] <LaserJock> and that people don't know what apps are for what ages, etc.
[22:45] <nubae> I'm thinking of this drawing... the ape to men drawing: http://www.iconsofevolution.com/
[22:45] <LaserJock> sure
[22:46] <nubae> or man to penguin going via mermaid?
[22:46] <Svenstaro> Ubuntu Christianic Edition will hate us.
[22:46] <nubae> hehe, we do something special for them
[22:46] <LaserJock> starting with a dinosaur might be better
[22:46] <nubae> dinasour to penguin... hmmmm
[22:46] <LaserJock> via chicken-looking thing?
[22:47] <nubae> yeah or we could look for the actual penguin lineage
[22:47] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: I doubt UCE would complain ;-)
[22:47] <Svenstaro> You could have a bunch of penguin like creatures, dinosaurs with penguin features. A bit like "Homer Evolution", do you know that one?
[22:47] <nubae> make it realisitic
[22:47] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, but they certainly won't be happy :P
[22:47] <nubae> so from bird dinasour to penguin
[22:47] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: not necessarily
[22:47] <nubae> terodactyl, via flightless bird (ostrich) to penguin
[22:48] <Svenstaro> Baptism schools are not going to use Edubuntu hehe
[22:48] <nubae> that has the fun of being kind of funny, but not too funny, and still educational
[22:48] <nubae> ok, so got ideas for all of them now...
[22:48] <Svenstaro> nubae, is that line actually correct then? Terodactyl to penguin?
[22:48] <nubae> I'll post my drawings tomorrow
[22:49] <nubae> heheehe... yeah it is...
[22:49] <LaserJock> it's a cartoon, we can make it funny
[22:49] <nubae> who is gonna prove me wrong :p
[22:49] <LaserJock> that's right
[22:49] <LaserJock> something like openSUSE's new theme would be awesome for tertiary
[22:50] <nubae> http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/system/files/u3/birdcompl.gif
[22:50] <nubae> there's the actual line, so I may actually not be far off the mark
[22:50] <nubae> :p
[22:53] <nubae> hmmm so from velociraptor to penguin is not even that much of a stretch
[22:54] <Svenstaro> Velociraptors OWN penguins :P
[22:54] <nubae> well, we are gonna teach that penguins once WERE velociraptors :p
[22:55] <Svenstaro> Anyway, do you guys reckon this is the right way to create a live medium for us? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
[22:55] <LaserJock> no
[22:56] <LaserJock> we have builders like I said
[22:56] <Svenstaro> So where should I start?
[22:56] <nubae> http://www.google.at/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DiIjdY7RFr0/SOJR37MjjMI/AAAAAAAAA6E/E6RzsozZ67k/S1600-R/Penguin%2BDiversification.jpg&imgrefurl=http://penguinology.blogspot.com/2009/01/yellow-eyed-penguin-megadyptes.html&h=376&w=486&sz=63&tbnid=e9CE8ckt5IjThM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Devolution%2Bof%2Bpenguins%2Bimages&usg=__va8DDYZVRB66IbdrPDDtLpnNdl8=&ei=T6shSsXVEpyOjAelrYnUBg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=
[22:56] <nubae> penguin evolution
[22:56] <LaserJock> well, I would have a look at ubuntu-cdimage and debian-cd
[22:56] <LaserJock> and read up on seed management/germinate
[22:56] <nubae> that is one long ass url
[22:58] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, what kind of work do I need to do for the builders to work from? Can't I just create a script that does everything from start to end?
[22:59] <LaserJock> umm, that's what ubuntu-cdimage is
[22:59] <LaserJock> like I said, Ubuntu already has everything
[22:59] <Svenstaro> The tool's name is ubuntu-cdimage?
[22:59] <LaserJock> what we need to do is get the configuration stuff setup so that it builds a LiveCD rather than an addon Cd
[23:00] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: let me give you the bzr branches
[23:00] <Svenstaro> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage ?
[23:00] <LaserJock> I think so yes
[23:01] <LaserJock> it should get you ~cjwatson/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline
[23:01] <Svenstaro> Can't find docs on it, is the included stuff enough to get me started?
[23:01] <LaserJock> you also want the debian-cd bzr branch as well
[23:01] <LaserJock> and install germinate
[23:02] <Svenstaro> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu ?
[23:03] <LaserJock> yep
[23:03] <LaserJock> you want to read README and config/devel
[23:03] <Svenstaro> Do I want to use anything pre-existing in the Edubuntu project right now or start over?
[23:03] <LaserJock> well, a fair amount of it will use pre-existing
[23:04] <Svenstaro> Where can I get the specific Edubuntu data?
[23:05] <LaserJock> well, it's basically all mixed around :-)
[23:05] <Svenstaro> So I'll start over?
[23:06] <LaserJock> no
[23:07] <LaserJock> you just need to look at the edubuntu stuff and modify it
[23:07] <LaserJock> you might start with grepping for edubuntu
[23:07] <Svenstaro> Well, *where* is the Edubuntu stuff? If I have to hunt many different people to get the sources I'll just start over.
[23:08] <LaserJock> it's within the files
[23:10] <LaserJock> the debian-cd branch will be the most important for you
[23:10] <LaserJock> ubuntu-cdimage is mostly for the download webpages, which will need to be messed with aftwards
[23:12] <LaserJock> mostly just greping around for edubuntu should work
[23:15] <Svenstaro> Does this mean I can not do my own images and have to rely on the Ubuntu release team to make them for me?
[23:15] <LaserJock> yes
[23:15] <LaserJock> I don't see any reason not to
[23:16] <LaserJock> and I doubt the Ubuntu release team is going to host something they didn't build
[23:16] <Svenstaro> Well I want to rapidly test if I got it right. Sometimes I'm making three ISOs a day just for testing.
[23:16] <LaserJock> right, ideally we won't have to worry about that stuff
[23:16] <LaserJock> and all we have to do is worry about what packages are on the CD
[23:17] <LaserJock> the idea here is that Edubuntu shouldn't be maintaining .isos
[23:17] <LaserJock> as it's a resource sync
[23:17] <LaserJock> and a QA mess
[23:17] <LaserJock> rather we should focus on the actual educational stuff
[23:17] <LaserJock> and let the release team worry about the builds
[23:18] <Svenstaro> Huh? The ISOs are our only product, it's pretty much everything we have to care for!
[23:18] <LaserJock> no it's not
[23:18] <Svenstaro> Edubuntu isn't a project to care for upstream development.
[23:19] <LaserJock> the ISO is our delivery device
[23:19] <LaserJock> we have to maintain packages, fix bugs, etc.
[23:19] <LaserJock> write docs
[23:19] <LaserJock> artwork
[23:20] <Svenstaro> Er. That's almost no work on our side then. If I wanted to test, then, I would bug a Ubuntu release maintainer *every time* ?
[23:21] <LaserJock> that's a *lot* of work on our side
[23:21] <LaserJock> much more than I usually can get from people
[23:21] <LaserJock> an .iso would get built daily for testing purposes
[23:21] <LaserJock> and then there's the testing for the alphas, beta, and RC
[23:22] <Svenstaro> Do we have to care for upstream except for submitting bugs, of course?
[23:22] <Svenstaro> As in, development of educational software?
[23:22] <LaserJock> well, if we had resources we could where needed
[23:22] <LaserJock> but 1st priority is putting the distro together
[23:23] <bencrisford> When I typed apt-get install edubuntu-desktop it wanted to download something
[23:23] <bencrisford> what would be downloaded with that command
[23:23] <Svenstaro> Either I'm missing a big part, or that really isn't all that much work if the Ubuntu people take care of every technical aspect of delivery.
[23:24] <LaserJock> bencrisford: everything?
[23:25] <bencrisford> but presumable thats not a distro...
[23:25] <LaserJock> well, it would be
[23:25] <bencrisford> oh
[23:25] <LaserJock> it was
[23:25] <bencrisford> ohh
[23:26] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, it is a lot of work
[23:26] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: and for the last 2 releases it's been woefully inadequate
[23:27] <LaserJock> there are lots of things that can mess up a build
[23:27] <LaserJock> so we fix those, we make sure all the packages are in good shape and updated, try to fix as many bugs as we can, etc.
[23:27] <bencrisford> well QA is the hardest thing to co-ordinate when making a new distro
[23:27] <bencrisford> well not hard
[23:27] <bencrisford> just hard to get people
[23:27] <Svenstaro> It's hard when I can't even make my own images :/
[23:28] <bencrisford> ill see if i can recruit a few bug-squadders to the edubuntu-bug-squad
[23:28] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: no it's not
[23:28] <LaserJock> you'll have an .iso every day
[23:28] <Svenstaro> How do you check something work? I change something, hit build, wait 20 minutes, test it out.
[23:28] <LaserJock> you test package on your machine localy
[23:28] <Svenstaro> I do that many times a day with my other distro and it helps a lot. I have ADHD, damnit!
[23:29] <LaserJock> either you're running the devel release or have a VM/chroot
[23:29] <LaserJock> there's absolutely no reason to be re-rolling .isos more than once a day
[23:30] <LaserJock> the .iso isn't a big priority
[23:30] <Svenstaro> There's much that can break on the way into the distro, though. Aufs2 mount not working, squashfs not unpacking or broken, initcpio wrong, wrong modules compiled, etc.
[23:30] <LaserJock> we just need to test it before a release (alpha, beta, etc.)
[23:30] <LaserJock> right
[23:30] <LaserJock> but that's all managed by Ubuntu
[23:30] <Svenstaro> Wow, see, no work for us :D
[23:30] <LaserJock> all that is Ubuntu's, we don't care about that
[23:30] <LaserJock> no!
[23:31] <bencrisford> Yeah, the less work the better
[23:31] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is about *education*, not how to build a distro from scratch
[23:31] <LaserJock> so there is lots and lots of education work to do
[23:31] <bencrisford> we'd never have enough contributors to do a full OS well enough
[23:31] <bencrisford> think how many ubuntu has
[23:32] <Svenstaro> Well we won't be rebuilding every package for us. Only those education ones.
[23:32] <LaserJock> right
[23:32] <LaserJock> so we focus on the stuff we change
[23:32] <LaserJock> we test to make sure that Ubuntu doesn't break anything, but beyond that it's just our packages we worry about
[23:33] <bencrisford> Lol, this conversation is nearly an hour long, its like a mini 2/3 man meeting
[23:33] <LaserJock> trust me, we will fill our time with that
[23:33] <bencrisford> and more
[23:34] <Svenstaro> Yes, because making .debs is unnecessarily complicated :/
[23:34] <bencrisford> true, too true :(
[23:34] <Svenstaro> Let's use PKGBUILDs :d
[23:34] <LaserJock> it's not complicated, it's just got a learning curve :-)
[23:35] <LaserJock> we've got ~ 30 packages and right now 0 people maintaining them
[23:35] <LaserJock> so that would be, IMO, a 1st priority
[23:36] <nubae> ok, so I have the 2 small penguin standing on top of ice berg dropping sack of fish on teacher penguin who is asleep below reading a physics book...
[23:36] <nubae> think people will get it?
[23:36] <LaserJock> hmm, shouldn't it be just 1 fish?
[23:36] <nubae> yeah maybe
[23:36] <nubae> ok, I'll take the others out
[23:37] <nubae> but otherwise make sense?
[23:37] <bencrisford> LaserJock: We need to organise some mentoring
[23:37] <nubae> I mean I was thinking what instead of iceberg
[23:37] <bencrisford> so devs can work on bugs *with* a mentee
[23:37] <LaserJock> bencrisford: we need mentors first no?
[23:37] <bencrisford> via gobby
[23:37] <bencrisford> well theres the dev team
[23:37] <bencrisford> most of them would be happy to
[23:37] <LaserJock> you think?
[23:37] <bencrisford> and sadly, there is just as many devs as people wanting mentoring
[23:38] <LaserJock> of the -dev team 1/2 are not yet Ubuntu devs
[23:38] <LaserJock> and the other 1/2 have very little time
[23:38] <LaserJock> it'll take some work to get mentors ready
[23:38] <bencrisford> hmm
[23:38] <bencrisford> they dont need to be ubuntu devs
[23:38] <bencrisford> but perhaps the edubuntu-dev should be a member of ubuntu-dev anyway?
[23:38] <LaserJock> no, but I mean they're currently learning
[23:39] <LaserJock> no, it would really limit us
[23:39] <LaserJock> ubuntu-dev have permissions to upload
[23:39] <LaserJock> I don't want to limit people that much
[23:39] <bencrisford> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-dev
[23:39] <LaserJock> perhaps we can ask MOTU Mentors for mentoring?
[23:39] <bencrisford> that is our problem
[23:40] <bencrisford> LaserJock: perhaps
[23:40] <LaserJock> otherwise I really don't know who will mentor
[23:40] <bencrisford> hmm
[23:40] <LaserJock> stgraber and myself are the only ones who are at least MOTU
[23:40] <bencrisford> wish i was motu :(
[23:40] <bencrisford> maybe in a year or so :)
[23:40] <LaserJock> you can get there
[23:40] <bencrisford> contributing developer is my next big aim
[23:40] <LaserJock> but yeah, it takes time
[23:41] <bencrisford> but it would help if i was any good at development :P
[23:41] <LaserJock> so I think we perhaps need to do a recruiting trip to ~ubuntu-dev :-)
[23:41] <bencrisford> perhaps :)
[23:41] <LaserJock> well, the nice thing is that there are lots of people who can help you learn
[23:41] <LaserJock> I mean, I'm just a chemist
[23:42] <LaserJock> I just showed up in #ubuntu-motu one day wanting to fix a bug in a chemistry app
[23:42] <nubae> how about instead of an iceberg an igloo
[23:42] <nubae> that will look better
[23:42] <LaserJock> hmm
[23:42] <LaserJock> but an igloo doesn't have an overhang
[23:43] <bencrisford> maybe, if one leans off the edge
[23:43] <bencrisford> the other holds his belt
[23:43] <bencrisford> :)
[23:43] <Svenstaro> Why can't Ubuntu development just be as open as Arch development :/
[23:44] <LaserJock> it is very open
[23:44] <LaserJock> but we have a lot more users than Arch, a more complicated package system, and largely higher standards
[23:44]  * bencrisford wants to be developer, but cant develop for sh*t :P
[23:45] <bencrisford> which is why i need to learn!
[23:45] <bencrisford> i can just about hack my way around things, *just* about package basic stuff, so i just need practise i guess
[23:45] <LaserJock> yep
[23:45] <LaserJock> learn by doing
[23:45] <bencrisford> but i dont know where to practice
[23:46] <LaserJock> in Edubuntu of course!
[23:46] <LaserJock> :-)
[23:46] <bencrisford> all too complex bugs
[23:46] <LaserJock> you don't have to fix bugs
[23:46] <bencrisford> i want to
[23:46] <Svenstaro> Make a wizard that asks the users what they want to do.
[23:46] <LaserJock> we need syncs and merges
[23:46] <Svenstaro> Grab glade, python and gtk+
[23:47] <bencrisford> syncs?  i only know one type of sink and im guessing its not the same one LaserJock
[23:47] <LaserJock> heh, no
[23:47] <bencrisford> i enjoy fixing bugs
[23:48] <bencrisford> i had loads of fun with that documentation bug, even though it was so boring :)
[23:48] <LaserJock> well, there's 2 basic ways we get packages from Debian, depending on whether we've modified them or not
[23:48] <LaserJock> a sync  is done when we've made no changes and take the source package directly from Debian
[23:48] <LaserJock> a merge is when we've got changes and so the package must be manually updated and uploaded
[23:48] <LaserJock> both require a developer's signoff
[23:48] <bencrisford> right
[23:49] <bencrisford> and when we edit the control of debian packages, do we put the maintainer as motu or edubuntu dev?
[23:49] <LaserJock> not MOTU
[23:49] <LaserJock> either edubuntu-dev if we're claiming it or ubuntu-devel-discuss
[23:49] <bencrisford> edubuntu dev?
[23:49] <bencrisford> ok
[23:49] <LaserJock> or wait
[23:49] <LaserJock> edubuntu-devel
[23:49] <bencrisford> ok
[23:49] <LaserJock> the lists
[23:50] <LaserJock> *list
[23:50] <Svenstaro> Why can't we just use the upstream sources and make our own packages? It's no brainer for most projects. Grab sources, ./configure, make, make install and put that into the deb. No need to grab from Debian if their stuff is too old for us.
[23:50] <bencrisford> so like - Maintainer: Edubuntu Developers<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[23:50] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: because it's not a no brainer
[23:50] <LaserJock> bencrisford: I think that's what I did :-)
[23:50] <bencrisford> ok :)
[23:50] <LaserJock> traditionally we've just used the normal ubuntu-devel-discuss one for Main
[23:51] <bencrisford> well if i get a point in the right direction, im normally ok
[23:51] <LaserJock> but for ones that we're going to claim we should probably do so
[23:51] <bencrisford> ok
[23:51] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: we can certainly jump ahead of Debian if we wish, but it requires work :-)
[23:51] <bencrisford> if i was to start working on a bug, and found the control had a different maintainer LaserJock, would I change it to edubuntu devel
[23:51] <LaserJock> so we only do that when there is somebody to maintain it
[23:51] <Svenstaro> Why is the simple approach too simple for Ubuntu :/
[23:52] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: generally there are issues that come up, bugs, etc.
[23:52] <bencrisford> not too simple for me :P
[23:52] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: integrating it into the distro isn't always trivial, sometimes it is though
[23:53] <bencrisford> Im gonna get some sleep soon
[23:53] <LaserJock> it's not an Ubuntu problem, all distros do it pretty much
[23:53] <Svenstaro> Well there are standard paths that work for most things where Ubuntu keeps to the unix filesystem hierachy, except for /var/www
[23:53] <LaserJock> bencrisford: generally you want to go with what's already there
[23:53] <bencrisford> i have 1000 word essay to write tommorrow - so i might not be around as much
[23:53] <bencrisford> but i should get a minute or two
[23:53] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: right, but you'd be surprised how many upstreams don't stick with the FHS, etc.
[23:54] <LaserJock> bencrisford: the general mantra is "minimize divergence", that is, make your changes as small as possible to get done what you want to
[23:54] <bencrisford> LaserJock: Ok :)
[23:55] <bencrisford> !info gcompris
[23:56] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: if a simple ./configure && make && make install works we just go with it and it takes like 5 min to make the package from scratch
[23:56] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: but most of the time it's quite a bit more complicated
[23:57] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: and then there's backporting fixes, making fixes, etc.
[23:58] <Svenstaro> I know, I'm dealing with those on a regular basis but so far there just was no package that would be utterly complex to create.
[23:58] <LaserJock> no, it's not utterly complex
[23:58] <LaserJock> it's just somebody has to do the work
[23:58] <bencrisford> anyway night
[23:58] <Svenstaro> Many packages broke with gcc43 but googling usually gets the fix quickly, so I'm confident.
[23:59] <LaserJock> we've only got like 3 outdated packages right now
[23:59] <LaserJock> but we've got almost 300 bug reports


[08:09] <dholbach> good morning
[10:43] <Mirv> jaywink: on older Ubuntus we so far have just provided the Qt Creator + emulator etc, which means the old Ubuntu's older Qt version is used, which explains the problem. Soon everyone will be updated to a new SDK IDE package that contains a whole new Qt version (not conflicting with the system Qt version) too.
[10:44] <jaywink> Mirv, sounds good, thanks for the note! It's good to keep trusty as a valid dev host
[10:45] <Mirv> jaywink: exactly, that's how it will be. just before the upgrade supported run targets are hardware + emulator, not the desktop itself.
[10:45] <Mirv> but that'll soon change too
[13:52] <t1mp> hello there, what did I miss? ;)
[13:54] <ahayzen> t1mp, o/ bug 1514143 ;-)
[13:54] <ubot5`> bug 1514143 in ubuntu-ui-toolkit (Ubuntu) "While searching often times the keyboard hides while typing" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1514143
[13:54] <t1mp> ahayzen: I'm on it :)
[13:54] <ahayzen> thanks man :-)
[13:54] <t1mp> ahayzen: victor's analysis was correct, we're a bit too eager to set 'moving' to true internally.
[13:54] <ahayzen> t1mp, is that likely to get into OTA8? :')
[13:55] <t1mp> ahayzen: I have a fix, writing some regression tests now.
[13:55] <t1mp> ahayzen: the fix will be in our staging this week for sure. I am not sure when the next landing to trunk is though
[13:55] <t1mp> when is OTA8?
[13:55] <ahayzen> 'soon', maybe this week :(
[13:55] <t1mp> (I just returned from my holidays, still need to catch up a bit)
[13:55]  * ahayzen wonders how many other apps that have already bumped this affects
[13:56] <ahayzen> like any that have a search in the header are likely affected
[13:56] <t1mp> right
[13:57] <t1mp> bzoltan, zsombi: what do I need to do to get a fix in OTA8?
[13:57] <zsombi> t1mp: luck :D
[13:57] <t1mp> and maybe more important, *when* do I need to get it done?
[13:57] <ahayzen> t1mp, buy QA a beer ;-)
[13:57] <zsombi> t1mp: and magic
[13:58] <zsombi> t1mp: OTA8 train has left the building :)
[13:58] <bzoltan> t1mp: You just give me the MR
[13:58] <bzoltan> t1mp:  against the trunk not the staging!
[13:58] <t1mp> bzoltan: I don't have the MR yet. I'm working on it. That's why I asked the *when* question.
[13:58] <bzoltan> t1mp:  two weeks ago
[13:58] <zsombi> t1mp: ota8 gates are closed for 6 days
[13:59] <bzoltan> zsombi:  :) exactly
[13:59] <zsombi> t1mp: so you missed that, ota9 maybe
[13:59] <t1mp> okay. It seems to me then that the fix for bug 1514143 will go to ota9
[13:59] <ubot5`> bug 1514143 in ubuntu-ui-toolkit (Ubuntu) "While searching often times the keyboard hides while typing" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1514143
[13:59] <ahayzen> t1mp, does the address-book have a search? as it may affect that
[14:01] <ahayzen> t1mp, hmm address-book is fine when you search
[14:01] <t1mp> ahayzen: the address book has a locked header, and I think locked headers are not affected
[14:01] <ahayzen> ahhh thats why
[14:01] <t1mp> the problem occurs when the flickable contents height changes
[14:01] <ahayzen> ok that makes sense
[14:01] <t1mp> ahayzen: so I'll have it fixed soon, but too late for OTA8
[14:02] <ahayzen> :-/
[14:02] <t1mp> ahayzen:  you could temporarily lock your header
[14:02] <ahayzen> t1mp, yeah was about to say as a workaround, when entering search we could lock the header
[14:03] <ahayzen> t1mp, ok we'll do that then until OTA9 :-)
[14:03] <t1mp> okay, cool
[14:03] <t1mp> sorry for the breakage. I'll add a regression test so it won't happen again.
[14:05] <t1mp> bzoltan: I'll make the MR for staging and hopefully we can land that for OTA9
[14:05] <ahayzen> t1mp, thanks
[14:06] <bzoltan> t1mp: if that is fine with pmcgowan then it is good
[14:06] <t1mp> pmcgowan: ^ can the fix for bug 1514143 go to OTA9?
[14:06] <ubot5`> bug 1514143 in ubuntu-ui-toolkit (Ubuntu) "While searching often times the keyboard hides while typing" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1514143
[14:25] <pmcgowan> bzoltan, once you have the fix we can decide whether to hotfix or wait for the ota, will see what QA things
[14:28] <bzoltan> pmcgowan: Thanks! I agree.
[14:28] <bzoltan> t1mp:  so just watch out to make it in a way that we can retarget if needed
[14:28] <t1mp> okay
[15:14] <popey> balloons, jenkins looks unwell.. lots of clocks https://core-apps-jenkins.ubuntu.com/
[15:14] <popey> (morning btw) :D
[15:17] <popey> looks like it's running against the wrong branch according to sverzegnassi_  balloons
[15:30] <balloons> popey, morning to you!
[15:30] <balloons> I'll look
[15:31] <balloons> ahh.. offline
[15:44] <beni_> hei
[15:45] <beni_> appdevs
[15:46] <beni_> are there any appdevs?
[15:51] <popey> beni_, ya
[18:45] <ahayzen> balloons, any idea why jenkins hasn't merged this? https://code.launchpad.net/~vthompson/music-app/music-uc1.3-now-playing-fix-1447428/+merge/275635
[19:25] <popey> oooh!
[19:26] <popey> ahayzen, jenkins was busted earlier today, it might need re-approving to nudge it? balloons ?
[19:26] <ahayzen> popey, oo
[19:26] <balloons> ahayzen, indeed, jenkins was broken this morning. I wasn't sure if the old jobs got re-run or not
[19:26] <popey> i believe it's supposed to be fixed now
[19:27] <balloons> ohh.. that merge has never been run by the new jenkins
[19:27] <ahayzen> balloons, that mp, and this one hasn't had jenkins comment on it yet https://code.launchpad.net/~ahayzen/music-app/fix-1514143-workaround/+merge/277611
[19:27] <ahayzen> yup, its all appproved :-)
[19:28] <balloons> interesting
[19:28] <balloons> let's look
[19:37] <balloons> ahayzen, d'oh!
[19:37] <balloons> found the issue
[19:37] <ahayzen> :-)
[19:38] <balloons> it's doing lots of stuff now
[19:38] <ahayzen> \o/
[19:38] <balloons> btw, it is lp:music-app, not lp:ubuntu-music-app
[19:38] <balloons> lol
[19:38] <ahayzen> balloons, up lp:music-app
[19:38] <ahayzen> *yup
[19:38] <ahayzen> lol
[19:39] <ahayzen> boom \o/ thanks balloons :-)
[19:40] <balloons> ahayzen, let me know if you see anymore weirdness, but yes, things should be happening now on music
[19:40] <balloons> sorry about that!
[19:40] <ahayzen> balloons, will do ... unrelated, and a bit obscure, was wondering if you can connect Vis to an app running on a device ?
[19:41] <ahayzen> i can use the print_tree as a sortof workaround but Vis is slightly nicer
[19:41] <balloons> in theory, yes. In practice, no
[19:41] <ahayzen> hah!


[04:33] <map> hi all
[10:46] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:49] <vad3rman1156> sup
[10:50] <brobostigon> morning vad3rman1156
[14:22] <penguin42> Ovo (eelc supplier) have an interesting account system; you earn interest on overpayments, and can extract money before the end of the term
[14:22] <map> thats decent
[14:22] <map> if im ever in credit at eon its a right pain getting it back
[14:24] <penguin42> yeh, it's just taken nearly 2 months to extract the end of contract credit from Flow gas
[14:24] <penguin42> I tend to change supplier each year
[14:24] <map> i usually dont just because of the hassle
[14:25] <penguin42> I think it's saving me money changing, althoguh frankly it's hard to tell
[14:26] <map> im gonna have to send my email later this week
[14:26] <map> paying for 100mbit getting like 20mbit speed max
[14:26] <penguin42> what on?
[14:26] <map> although il need to do what daftykins  said at some point
[14:26] <map> hat do you mean what on
[14:26] <penguin42> what isp/connectivity/technology?
[14:26] <map> gibtelecom
[14:26] <map> says fibre
[14:26] <penguin42> ah
[14:27] <map> like now download 10.51
[14:27] <map> lol
[14:27] <penguin42> yeh well you're probably sharing gig among your segment - but what's the link back to the mainland?
[14:27] <map> ]no idea tbh
[14:27] <map> i get that its shared and 'upto 100' but even at 3/4am
[14:27] <map> max 20
[14:27] <map> no point paying for 100 if im not getting ANYWHERE close
[14:28] <penguin42> try a traceroute and see if you can figure it out
[14:28] <penguin42> map: and where are you downloading from?
[14:29] <map> ive tried nearest possible mirrors for isos
[14:29] <map> also tried speedtest
[14:29] <map> traceroute to where anywhere in particular..google.co.uk?
[14:29] <penguin42> map: I'd be happy to try and do a compare from my supposed 50/60mbps cable
[14:29] <penguin42> map: The place you're downloading from
[14:30] <map> DSL Type:	ITU-T G.993.2 Annex B (VDSL2)
[14:30] <map> Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:	13.410 / 100.016
[14:30] <map> Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [B/B]:	0 / 0
[14:30] <penguin42> oh, that's not fibre, that's VDSL
[14:30] <map> yea
[14:30] <map> but the site said fibre
[14:31] <map> https://www.gibtele.com/fibrebroadband/
[14:31] <penguin42> yeh most of the UK places advertise as fibre, but that's fibre to the cabinet - but still, where did that info come from - your modem?
[14:31] <penguin42> (I made a complaint to advertising standards about 10 years ago when they started doing that but they didn't get it)
[14:31] <map> yea jusgt logged into the router
[14:32] <map> dont get that tho
[14:32] <map> what speed does it think its connecting at?
[14:32] <penguin42> map: OK, so something in the router thinks you're on 100Mbps
[14:32] <map> il try and find a spanish mirror and test
[14:32] <penguin42> hmm, actually no those numbers don't quite make sense - although they might if you assume it's mbps not kbps
[14:32] <map> whys it say kbps? just an error with the page i guess
[14:32] <map> yea
[14:32] <penguin42> yeh
[14:33] <penguin42> map: Are you sure it's not the mirror ? What exactly are you trying to download from where?
[14:33] <map> ubuntu isos just a big file to test
[14:33] <map> not sure where else to use to test besides mirrors?
[14:34] <penguin42> which mirror are you using?
[14:34] <map> sec
[14:34] <map> <IP_ADDRESS> gona try tracert to that
[14:35] <map> took quite a while to get there
[14:36] <map> http://de.releases.ubuntu.com/utopic/
[14:36]  * penguin42 wonders where that actually is
[14:36] <map> what speed do you get off there..700ks here;[
[14:36] <map> its works IP address in the UK
[14:37] <penguin42> well that's probably in Germany?
[14:37] <map> yea it is
[14:37] <map> i cant find anywhere closer now
[14:37] <map> not sure where to use to try and test
[14:37] <penguin42> that's giving about 6MByte/sec - so about 50Mbps
[14:37] <map> yea see thats decent
[14:37] <map> im no even getting 1MB/s
[14:38] <map> any suggestions for something/somewhere to download from? doesnt matter what it is
[14:39] <penguin42> well what happens if you just drop the de. ?
[14:39] <penguin42> oh actually, that's going to the same host
[14:40]  * penguin42 suspects it's doing something clever there
[14:40] <map> not sure where it went to
[14:40] <map> :)
[14:41]  * penguin42 was going to sugges mirrorservice.org but for some reason it only has the ppc server isos of 14.10
[14:41] <map> thats ok though
[14:41] <penguin42> map: Well for a bandwidth test, http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/utopic/release/
[14:42] <penguin42> map: I'd bet your problem is just the bandwidth to the mainland
[14:42] <map> surely to spain i should be fine then
[14:43] <map> even on speedtest running a test from a site in Malaga or anywhere..max 20
[14:43] <map> lol 240kb/s
[14:46] <penguin42> map: Try france or portugal
[14:46] <map> willl do ta
[14:47] <shauno> I'd expect better service to the UK, tbh
[14:47] <penguin42> shauno: Yeh, I was just seeing the list of landing points for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_India_Gateway    it does have UK, but also Portugal and France, but not Spain
[14:50] <shauno> and this is why uni tell you off for citing wiki :)
[14:50] <map> possibly due to spain not recognising gibralar as a country
[14:50] <shauno> https://www.europeindiagateway.com/webclient/common/html/aboutus.html
[14:51] <shauno> they list gibraltar as one of the landing points, and gibtelecom are one of the part-owners
[14:51] <map> hm
[14:51] <map> so whys it son rubbish;[
[14:52] <shauno> no idea at all.  I just assumed you'd get better traffic down the cable, than over a disputed border  (speculation)
[14:53] <penguin42> map: Because the whole of gibraltar is using it to surf the net on a quiet sunday afternoon, and most of the rest of the world is using it to bet using gibraltar betting companies
[14:53] <map> lol
[14:54] <map> but what about when its 4am and it sucks
[14:54] <shauno> there's a good chance it simply sucks :)
[14:54] <map> ja
[14:54] <map> gonna have to contaCT THEM as its mad expensive too
[14:54] <map> 73 a month
[14:54] <map> why pay that for this rubbish
[14:54] <shauno> c&w, at&t, both owned massive infrastructure but were still pretty lousy as residential ISPs
[14:56] <map> 16mbit is only 28 quid..so may aswell switch to that if it doesnt get better?
[14:58] <penguin42> map: What difference do you get in the upload bandwidth if you drop down to 16mbit?
[15:00] <map> it just says download 16Mbps upload 16=.6
[15:00] <shauno> what happens if you pay for 16 and get a quarter of that instead?
[15:01] <map> well
[15:01] <penguin42> map: Yeh make sure you know what you're gettting upload; .6mbps would be a bit grim compared to your current supposed 13
[15:01] <map> il be annoyed again
[15:01] <map> im figuring they cant meet 100mbit requirements
[15:02] <map> but more likely to get full speed on 16?
[15:02] <shauno> perhaps you have someone like me as your nextdoor neighbour :)
[15:04] <map> ;]
[15:50] <daftykins> Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:I13.410 / 100.016
[15:50] <daftykins> map: yeah that's kbps, because in Gibraltar, a period is used as a comma for numbers
[15:50] <daftykins> you should really check the actual line sync rate still
[15:51] <daftykins> looks like it's connected and provisioned at the correct speed, maybe you're just trying to do too much UK stuff with it? ;)
[15:56] <shauno> perhaps you just need to lower your expectations now that you're living on the edge of civilization =x
[15:56] <shauno> (btw, is it safe to assume that your vpn plays no part in these tests?)
[15:57] <daftykins> i think that's just when he's at work
[16:08] <shauno> I just discovere that in win7, if you grab a window and wave it around, it hides all other windows.  I'm now trying to figure out the logic behind this :/
[16:09] <daftykins> :D
[16:09] <daftykins> yeah the ol' wobble minimise and restore
[16:10] <shauno> but why?
[16:11] <daftykins> i can only imagine someone would have a tonne of junk up then want to focus on just one thing
[16:11] <daftykins> buuuut nope, doesn't make any sense
[16:11] <daftykins> could be a good boss protection thing i guess ;)
[16:12] <shauno> hm.  I was trying to get the window to snap against the 'edge' between two monitors.  I wasn't expecting that
[16:13] <shauno> (which also sounds like it should't work, but does work in one direction)
[16:14] <daftykins> yeah i always used super + d-pad
[16:14] <daftykins> *use
[16:15] <daftykins> i can't go back to Vista and before now, as they lack this :(
[16:15] <zmoylan-pi> well pre win 7 a humongus amount of cpu and ram was used to draw screen if only 1 pixel of 1gb file was on screen so maybe they cut a few corners :-)
[16:15] <daftykins> not that i want to use Vista or earlier
[16:15] <zmoylan-pi> or in a folder on the desktop
[16:16] <daftykins> i somewhat doubt that claim
[16:17] <zmoylan-pi> tis true, i'll try and dig up proof but take any win vista system or earlier and move 4gb from my documents to a folder on desktop and compare perfermorance before and after
[16:17] <shauno> daftykins: a scholar and a gentleman!  super+cursors is exactly what I was looking for
[16:17] <daftykins> shauno: :D woohoo \o/
[16:17] <zmoylan-pi> in my docs no performance hit, on desktop or in folder below desktop grind to a halt
[16:18] <shauno> it seems I can only do it with the mouse in one direction because the monitors aren't the same size.  so I can snap up against the 'step'
[16:18] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: upon doing what? browsing with an explorer window?
[16:19] <shauno> that reminds me of when 95 was new, and people would complain that leaving icons on the desktop "used up ram"
[16:19] <daftykins> is that even true 0o
[16:20] <zmoylan-pi> any time windows went to redraw the desktop it checked with all the apps and then had a rummage in desktop folder in windows to see what the background should look like on top of the current theme
[16:20] <shauno> not to any significant measure, I believe
[16:20] <shauno> and then we had all the scare-mongering from admins who hated us leaving stuff on the desktop because only 'my documents' was propogated to network backups
[16:20] <zmoylan-pi> in windows 3.x even icons on desktop used resources enough to make a difference
[16:21] <daftykins> ah yes Desktop content remains on-system and was never seen again
[16:21] <daftykins> i remember them locking down the desktop at my old College, much to the anger of those that stored desktop shortcuts or documents also
[16:22] <daftykins> if you wanted to run anything that wasn't on the start menu (such as cmd) you had to make your own shortcut in your user area
[16:22] <shauno> ours mostly worked because we habitually took the same workstations each day. so what we were told was 'wrong and didn't work', continued to work
[16:22] <daftykins> :D
[16:23] <daftykins> doesn't do much for disk failure mind you
[16:23] <shauno> we actually had the opposite.  we had an optical link between two campuses.
[16:23] <zmoylan-pi> well then you're into disks spinning up and down increasing or lowering hard disk life
[16:23] <shauno> so whenever there was a proper sea haar, you'd find you could login to get hte stuff off your desktop - but not from 'my documents'
[16:24] <zmoylan-pi> differing opinions on files on desktops slowing down things.  http://superuser.com/questions/30710/is-that-true-that-if-you-keep-bulky-files-on-the-desktop-then-windows-slow-down
[16:24] <shauno> large parts of the network were completely dependent on the weather.
[16:25] <daftykins> opinions? are these not people of science?!
[16:25] <zmoylan-pi> well ireland, weather. i'm surprised some days the electricity has made it out of power station it's so damp :-)
[16:25] <zmoylan-pi> we still haven't agreed that vim is the best text editor :-p
[16:25] <shauno> oh I didn't go to college here :)  that was eons ago
[16:26] <shauno> have you ever noticed the 'thumbs' hidden file that you get when you've copied a folder off a windows machine?
[16:26] <zmoylan-pi> there were many times i drastically speeded up a crawling windows desktop by moving a few gigabytes from desktop folder to my documents.  /my 2c
[16:27] <shauno> that file is why windows doesn't have to reindex the desktop every single time it becomes visible.  such stuff is cached
[17:12] <foobarry> anyone on ircnet? having a problem i can't figure out. when i join, there is a bitlbee session i connect to. i can't seem to /join any chans
[17:40] <foobarry> hmm. ebay down for me
[17:41] <foobarry> oh, www.ebay.co.uk works. not without www
[18:21] <map> shauno,  yea vpn isnt plaing part at all
[18:21] <map> the VPNs on 90mbit sky anyway with a decent upload so wouldnt hamper it so much?
[18:27] <daftykins> map: lol yes it would.
[18:27] <daftykins> you don't apply extra hops then speed test XD
[18:27] <map> sure
[18:27] <map> i wasnt tho;p
[18:27] <daftykins> you really need to try some local mirrors then
[18:27] <map> fixed my pi..it all comes on after a reboot/powercut
[18:28] <map> apache/openvpn starts automatically..iptables rules loaded and wifi connects with same ip :)
[18:28] <map> so if it goes wrong again il hve no idea why
[18:28] <map> cant see any local ones..spain best? although shauno  said the gib -> spain link was crap or something?
[18:29] <daftykins> funnily enough my internalised database of international links doesn't cover Gibraltar (:
[18:29] <map> damn!
[18:29] <map> ;]
[18:29] <map> strange
[18:29] <map> phone couldnt get a signal..then says searching comes back as orange
[18:29] <map> normally only get orange es when in spain
[18:29] <map> and gibtel right the way until quite far in la linea
[18:30] <penguin42> map: I'd make sure it's not routing via the vpn, the IP you mentioned before I tried to traceroute to went via a bet365 address which suggests perhaps it's a VPN end point?
[18:30] <map> penguin42, thats the work IP in UK office
[18:30] <map> i was uust using it as an ip to traceroute
[18:31] <penguin42> map: that was a bad idea
[18:31] <map> speedtest in UK says the uk office is pretty fast tho
[18:31] <map> why?
[18:31] <map> i figured itd be ok to use that IP its got a decent link so surely routing is good
[18:31] <penguin42> map: Routes between places don't necessarily go the same way just because they both happen to be in the same country
[18:32] <map> i know that:D
[18:32] <penguin42> map: Especially if you have VPN stuff around
[18:32] <map> 900k off a mirror in Marseille
[18:32] <map> lol
[18:32] <map> il do what daftykins  said to tomorrow (off work) and see what it says
[18:33] <map> then il have to email them..it sucks bad paying and getting like 1/5 of what i should
[18:33] <daftykins> well it's kind of a moot point now
[18:33] <map> why?
[18:33] <map> ive tested speed downloading isos from numerouis mirrors
[18:34] <map> spain/france uk kent mirror service ..250ks lol
[18:34] <daftykins> because your provisioned rates have to be higher than sync rates, and you've already shared those
[18:34] <map> ah
[18:34] <daftykins> so you to the ISP is fine, it's from there onwards that's up for debate
[18:35] <map> could it be a simple mistake their end?:Z
[18:35] <daftykins> doubt it
[18:35] <map> :(
[18:35] <map> so il probably never really get 100mbit speeds
[18:35] <map> grmpf
[18:36] <map> well if i get ut sirted si un bit oaying for 100 wont be too bad
[18:37] <daftykins> this is why you need to test from a nearby mirror
[18:37] <map> but theres none nearby!
[18:37] <map> spain is nearest geographically
[18:38] <daftykins> i noticed your telco's speedtest link just kinda fails
[18:38] <daftykins> well yeah but damn well find one :P don't just throw your hands up like an undergrad
[18:39] <map> lol does it thats crap
[18:39] <daftykins> well it did the other day
[18:39] <map> i cant see there being a gibraltar mirror;p
[18:40] <daftykins> contact them and ask for a file mirror they host in their data centre
[18:41] <shauno> "since you can't give me the speeds I pay for, can you at least host a mirror so we can pretend?"
[18:41] <daftykins> 8D
[18:42] <shauno> I pay for 120 and tend to get 150-180 depending on the time of day (or !day)
[18:43] <map> heh
[18:43] <daftykins> is that over cable?
[18:43] <shauno> which i starting to get a bit silly. you barely notice the extra 60meg
[18:43] <shauno> yeah
[18:43] <daftykins> barely notice? :)
[18:43] <daftykins> the rate adaptability of cable is kinda funny
[18:44] <shauno> it's sold as fibre, but I don't know where the fibre actually starts.  it's coax at the wall
[18:45] <map> i expect il speak to someone who will say like 'oh its the time of day' 'or depends on what ytoure trying' - but ive tried so many diff mirrors as stated here and ive tried at 3am/4am 6am ..1pm 4pm etc
[18:45] <shauno> phone them up at 3am :)
[18:45] <penguin42> shauno: Sounds like you're on Cable - DOCSIS?
[18:45] <map> heh shauno
[18:45] <map> :)
[18:46] <daftykins> everything's called fibre these days, it's one of the present day's biggest lies
[18:46] <map> yea
[18:46] <daftykins> just goes to show consumer naivety really :(
[18:46] <zmoylan-pi> it's right up there with unlimited and 4g :-)
[18:46] <map> i figure il prob email that way they can forward the email to others rather than me having to explain to one operator..then ANOTHER AND SO ON!!
[18:46] <daftykins> when someone says their tubes are fibre, i know they don't have a clue
[18:46] <map> fibre to the box
[18:46] <map> :D
[18:47] <daftykins> there are many boxes
[18:48] <zmoylan-pi> it's more of a trapezoid than a box :-p
[18:51] <map> heh
[18:51] <map> so everyone agreee? best for me to email my mug ISP:p
[18:51] <map> havent paid a bill yet and theres no direct debit payment..so i might not pay till they a) sort my speed b) lower me to a diff tarrif if they cant provide 100 as stated
[18:52] <daftykins> i'd ask for a testing methodology in the first instance
[18:53] <map> like a local mirror..then when they say..none?:D
[18:54] <daftykins> damn you're stubborn
[18:54] <brobostigon> would everyone agree, that leaving food out in the kitchen after it has been cooked for 24 hrs, is unsafe to eat?
[18:54] <daftykins> if they're throwing out a service their backbone links can't provide for, i would think they'd be aware of it
[18:54] <daftykins> brobostigon: if uncovered, it wouldn't be wise, no. depends on the environment really
[18:55] <map> depends on what food
[18:55] <map> i prob wouldn eat
[18:55] <brobostigon> daftykins: uncovered is not the issue, its average environmental temperature, and average bacterial growth at those temperatures, which make it unsafe.
[18:56] <map> me stubborn? i said if:P pfft
[18:56] <daftykins> i think that's going a bit deep for my interests
[18:57] <brobostigon> however, its fair to say, its not safe, basic logic tells me that.
[18:58] <daftykins> yeah i wouldn't leave food out
[18:58] <brobostigon> me neither.
[18:58] <brobostigon> after its cooled, in the fridge it goes.
[18:59] <map> odd that putting hot food into a fridge is bad
[18:59] <map> i should google and read why heh
[18:59] <brobostigon> bacterial growth, its too high a termperature differential.
[18:59] <map> i see
[19:00] <map> id have thought its ok though as the foods cooked
[19:00] <brobostigon> between the food and the fridge.
[19:00] <map> but yea i dont know
[19:00] <map> yea
[19:00] <map> HOMELAND TONIGHT ;D
[19:08]  * brobostigon admits to having studied basic food health and safety, at this point.
[19:10] <daftykins> i just don't believe in leftovers
[19:11] <daftykins> i eat what i cook, nothing's left :D
[19:12] <brobostigon> agreed, if all else fails, i store things properly, to have for lunch next day, however stores proerly, and at the right times.
[19:12] <brobostigon> stored*
[19:12] <brobostigon> you dont store food in warm kitchens.
[19:21] <zmoylan-pi> yes you do, in tin cans, jars and dehydrated :-)
[19:21] <zmoylan-pi> plus cheese and honey which also work
[19:22] <daftykins> mmm cheese
[19:22] <daftykins> i'm sat here debating a shop run for junk food, to last the night
[19:22] <zmoylan-pi> can't go wrong with a good bit of cheese
[19:22] <daftykins> indeed!
[19:23] <zmoylan-pi> babybel cheeses go down well on gaming days with a bunch of geeks
[19:24] <daftykins> too small :(
[19:24] <zmoylan-pi> nice to nibble on
[19:25] <daftykins> triple the diameter, then we're talking!
[19:25] <brobostigon> cheese you store in the fridge. and tins and cans, are vacuum sealed with all bacteria dead inside.
[19:26] <shauno> but cheese is yummy bacteria?
[19:27] <zmoylan-pi> that's why spam is popular in hawaii, stores well in warm climate
[20:25] <shauno> had to laugh at this on reddit; "I have a mechanical keyboard and the key doesn't work, lease hel"
[20:25] <zmoylan-pi> can i have a p please bob?
[20:26] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: not after last time
[20:44] <zmoylan-pi> who here hasn't looked at the error on a computer screen 'keyboard not attached, press a key to continue' and felt a little despair :-)
[21:25] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: honestly whoever came up with that needs to own up
[21:26] <shauno> I dunno.  mine just makes a sad face.  it's not a huge improvement
[21:30] <zmoylan-pi> at least to collect a special sadist award for cruelty :-)
[21:33] <daftykins> do you guys have any ideas as to when halt on keyboard is even desirable?
[21:34] <shauno> all the times!  how else are you going to press F1
[21:34] <daftykins> =[
[21:36] <shauno> I dunno.  the silly part is that ps/2 isn't meant to be hot-plugged
[21:36] <daftykins> :D
[21:37] <daftykins> i wish my mechanical still used PS/2
[21:37] <shauno> so it seems kinda silly having a screen asking you to insert a keyboard
[21:41] <zmoylan-pi> i think it was meant for when a system might be set up as a novell server and you would want to down the server properly with no files open/locked so that you didn't want it to start with no keyboard attached.  /i think/...


[07:50] <mup> PR snapd#4118 closed: overlord/snapstate: cleanups around switch-snap* <Created by pedronis> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4118>
[15:32] <Abbot> Hello, built and deployed a snap (it work deploys!), but having hopefully a minor issue with "stage-packages"
[15:33] <Abbot> I am trying to include a static lib for an armhf but snap packages up the amd64 lib
[15:37] <Abbot> how do you tell snapcraft to use armhf in the package?   I am building with --target-arch=armhf
[15:42] <Abbot> Or, is it possible to specify a search path with the snap to use the lib that is already on the machine?  Since I already installed the needed lib to the host machine
[15:44] <Abbot> if i run the app from a command line it works... if i use --shell and try to run it.. it can't find the lib.... so i am very close to getting it to work