[00:14] <niemeyer> davecheney: Quite possibly.. config needs love
[00:17] <davecheney> niemeyer: basically it looks like the config-get command is returning null to the hook
[00:17] <davecheney> not the default value
[00:17] <davecheney> looking at the tests in cmd/jujuc/server/config-get_test.go
[00:17] <davecheney> it looks like that is the cause
[00:17] <davecheney> ie, none of the default options in the dummy charm are being reported by config-get
[00:17] <niemeyer> davecheney: It's state that needs to change, both to support multiple charms and to integrate default handling
[00:17] <niemeyer> davecheney: jujuc is merely reporting what it finds
[00:18] <davecheney> riiiiiiiiiigh
[00:18] <davecheney> but isn't that logic in the charm package ?
[00:18]  * davecheney raises an issue
[00:19] <niemeyer> davecheney: No, the charm package manages charm bundles, directories, etc, and reports the defaults in the charm itself correctly
[00:19] <niemeyer> davecheney: But state needs to incorporate those details
[00:19] <davecheney> right
[00:19] <davecheney> is there an issue reported for this already ?
[00:22] <davecheney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1060537
[00:22] <davecheney> ^ will close if it is a duplicate
[00:26] <davecheney> niemeyer: sorry to keep asking about this
[00:26] <davecheney> but are you sure this is a problem in the state package
[00:26] <davecheney> looking at state/charm.go, it imports charm, an includes a *charm.Config in the document
[00:27] <niemeyer> davecheney: Look at Service.Config
[00:27] <davecheney> niemeyer: thank you
[00:27] <niemeyer> davecheney: np
[00:28] <davecheney> niemeyer: ah, right
[00:28] <davecheney> it just returns a *state.ConfigNode with no consideration for any defaults provided by the charm
[00:30] <davecheney> niemeyer: cmd/juju/get.go:end
[00:30] <davecheney> if this logic is correct, should I move it into state ?
[00:31] <niemeyer> davecheney: We should implement this together with the multi-config handling that we talked about in the sprint
[00:31] <niemeyer> davecheney: Since this will mean we'll have the charm at hand, among other things
[00:32] <davecheney> you will have to refresh my memory
[00:32] <davecheney> or, if others understand this better, i will move on to something else
[00:33] <niemeyer> davecheney: There's some coverage of the problem in the list IIRC
[00:33] <davecheney> ok, will re-read the archive
[00:34] <niemeyer> davecheney: I thought you had talked to William during the sprint about this as well
[00:34] <davecheney> yes, but it is not ringing any bells
[00:34] <davecheney> possibly i have a different name for the problem
[00:35] <niemeyer> davecheney: Okay, there was some misscommunication then.. this is what I've been asking you about for the past couple of weeks whenever I ask "How is the config stuff going" :)
[00:37] <davecheney> definitly a misscommunication
[00:37] <davecheney> i was working on the user side juju get
[00:37] <niemeyer> davecheney: Cool, no worries
[00:38] <niemeyer> davecheney: The basic idea, as you can dig in the archives for background, is that when we upgrade, the configuration has to be upgraded as well
[00:38] <davecheney> right, yes, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/juju-dev/2012-September/000195.html
[00:38] <niemeyer> davecheney: Because the new charm may have different options
[00:38] <davecheney> incompatible charm upgrades
[00:39] <niemeyer> davecheney: Then, we have an issue: what do we do during the upgrade
[00:40] <niemeyer> davecheney: This isn't an atomic operation.. old charms cannot deal with new config
[00:40] <niemeyer> davecheney: new charms cannot deal with old config
[00:40] <niemeyer> davecheney: and they're both running
[01:40] <niemeyer> davechen1y: Makes sense?
[01:42] <davechen1y> niemeyer: yes, i think i understand the problem
[01:42] <davechen1y> but the solution looks compilcated
[01:50] <niemeyer> davechen1y: Yeah, it requires some consideration indeed
[01:50] <niemeyer> davechen1y: I suggest just leaving it aside for the moment then, and continuing the good progress
[01:51] <davechen1y> niemeyer: understood
[01:52] <niemeyer> davechen1y: It'll probably require more synchronization than we'll have available in the next couple of weeks due to the timezone differences, so it seems to make more sense for you to focus on tasks you're comfortable with the approach and direction
[01:53] <davechen1y> yes, i agree
[01:53] <davechen1y> i don't want to tackle that
[01:53] <davechen1y> you and william are in the best position to handle it
[02:12] <niemeyer> davechen1y: Alright, time for some sleep.. have a good day there
[07:02] <davecheney> :135
[09:14] <Aram> moin.
[09:24] <davecheney> rogpeppe: https://codereview.appspot.com/6598052/
[09:24] <davecheney> LGTM
[09:25] <davecheney> i've been using it all day, and no charms have barfed on it
[09:25] <rogpeppe> davecheney: cool, thanks. i wanted an extra look because i made some significant changes after your previous review
[09:25] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i was kinda hoping for a review from niemeyer, but i think i'll submit anyway
[09:26] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i'm not too happy about the difference between -u=foo and --u=foo but that's GNU flags for ya
[09:29] <davecheney> rogpeppe: what is the difference between -u=foo and --u=foo ?
[09:29] <davecheney> maybe i'm a bsd zealot, but -u=foo isn't a valid syntax
[09:29] <rogpeppe> davecheney: it is
[09:29] <davecheney> although I realise that plan9/flag treat them as identical
[09:29] <rogpeppe> davecheney: -u associates the value "=foo" with the u flag
[09:29] <davecheney> ahhm yes
[09:29] <rogpeppe> davecheney: --u associates the value "foo"
[09:30] <davecheney> dont you also introduce things like
[09:30] <davecheney> -flag=5
[09:30] <davecheney> which is -f -l -a -g=5
[09:30] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah, that works
[09:30] <davecheney> and also
[09:30] <davecheney> -uwang
[09:31] <rogpeppe> davecheney: that works too
[09:31] <davecheney> which could be -u -w -a -n -g, and also -u => wang
[09:31] <davecheney> this shit is cazy
[09:31] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah, you can't tell without looking at the flag
[09:31] <rogpeppe> davecheney: it's a real pity that flag parsing is context-sensitive
[09:31] <rogpeppe> davecheney: (that's true for go's flag syntax too, of course)
[09:32] <davecheney> rogpeppe: if you are happy with what exists now, then i'd +1 for comitting it now so I can hammer on folks to go get -u their installs
[09:33] <davecheney> we're at the point that if you squint, the mysql gem is usable
[09:33] <rogpeppe> davecheney: FWIW plan 9's flag package didn't allow multi-letter flags at all...
[09:33] <rogpeppe> davecheney: cool!
[09:33] <rogpeppe> davecheney:  ok, will submit
[09:33] <rogpeppe> davecheney: gustavo can moan later if he wants
[09:33] <Aram> yeah, I very much disklike multi letter flags.
[09:34] <rogpeppe> Aram: i'm not sure.
[09:34] <rogpeppe> Aram: it depends how many flags you've got
[09:35] <rogpeppe> Aram: i very much dislike unix-style commands that have many single-letter flags
[09:35] <rogpeppe> Aram: of course, i've got used to ls by now :-)
[09:35] <davecheney> rogpeppe: Aram it is what it is, whatever the charms expect, we have to support
[09:35] <Aram> I dislike commands that have too many flags as well.
[09:35] <rogpeppe> davecheney: submitted
[09:35] <davecheney> bam!
[09:35] <Aram> davecheney: of course.
[09:36] <davecheney> Aram: but i share your feelings
[09:36] <davecheney> python commands tend to be very verbose in their input
[09:37] <rogpeppe> davecheney: did you get a t-shirt?
[09:38] <davecheney> rogpeppe: i did indeed
[09:38] <davecheney> a lovely green one
[09:38] <rogpeppe> davecheney: me too. very tasteful.
[09:38] <davecheney> i think you've seen niemeyer model it
[09:38] <davecheney> w00t
[09:39] <rogpeppe> davecheney: ah, you're right. i thought i'd seen it before.
[09:39] <davecheney> coming to a google io near you
[09:40] <Aram> where do you get these tshirts?
[09:43] <davecheney> Aram: i think adg sent them
[09:43] <davecheney> a long time ago, back in march from memory, they asked for a shipping address
[09:43] <davecheney> unless this was an unrelated act of generosity
[09:43] <Aram> send to whom? to an elite cabal? :)
[09:44] <davecheney> Aram: i don't know who was on the list, i'll find out
[09:46] <Aram> heh, Microsoft released the source of the Z3 theorem prover under a license that can be characterized as: "We couldn't figure out how to make money with it, but if you do, give it to me."
[09:48] <davecheney> Aram: rofl
[09:48] <davecheney> the 'come in spinner' licence
[11:06] <rogpeppe> Aram, fwereade: how important do you think it is that state.Initialize is idempotent?
[11:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I think it's important but my only strong motivation is an obscure sense of aesthetics
[11:06] <rogpeppe> Aram, fwereade: 'cos the changes i'm making will mean that the second time you call it, it will give an error
[11:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that sounds fine too, at least it's explicit :)
[11:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: cool
[11:07] <davecheney> rogpeppe: tell me more about this
[11:07] <davecheney> we do have explicit tests that assert that this is ok
[11:07] <davecheney> however I can't think of a real world case where this wouldn't be an error
[11:07] <rogpeppe> davecheney: we're going to run mongodb in auth mode
[11:07] <rogpeppe> davecheney: Initialize is responsible for setting up the first user (admin)
[11:08] <davecheney> i think the 'it's ok to double init' logic was part of the 'wait for init' logic
[11:08] <davecheney> which probably makes little sense
[11:08] <rogpeppe> davecheney: subsequent connections will need to provide authorization
[11:08] <davecheney> rogpeppe: right, so first in sets the key
[11:08] <rogpeppe> davecheney: so if you call Initialize twice, the second call won't have the correct authorization info, so it'll fail
[11:08] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah
[11:08] <davecheney> after that it's password or GTFO
[11:08] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yup
[11:08] <davecheney> i think that is a reasonable restriction
[11:08] <davecheney> +1
[11:08] <rogpeppe> davecheney: cool
[11:09] <davecheney> urgh - i just ended up writing a test harness for ssh by hand
[11:09] <davecheney> http://codereview.appspot.com/6601043/
[11:09] <davecheney> kind wish we had gocheck for go.crypto packages
[11:09] <davecheney> /s/ssh/sshd
[11:10] <davecheney> certainly {SetUp,TearDown}Test
[11:13] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i don't really understand why sshtest is a package. it doesn't seem to export any symbols.
[11:14] <davecheney> i want the func tests to be in another packaged
[11:14] <davecheney> because, honestly, they are going to fail more often
[11:14] <davecheney> because of various environmental issues
[11:15] <rogpeppe> davecheney: won't they be run exactly as often because people will always do test ./... ?
[11:16] <davecheney> it's mainly for the builders
[11:16] <davecheney> you make a good point that it is uncommon to split tests across two packages
[11:17] <rogpeppe> davecheney: it seems odd to me, tbh
[11:17] <davecheney> rogpeppe: noted
[11:18] <rogpeppe> davecheney: at the very least there should be a package comment that says "this package consists of tests only"
[11:19] <rogpeppe> davecheney: and i think there's no point in having non-test files. they're just confusing. i looked for a while to try to find what the package was about.
[11:19] <davecheney> rogpeppe: good call
[11:19] <davecheney> i will make that change
[11:22] <Aram> rogpeppe: I don't care if state.Initialize is idempotent. I wish it would be, but I wouldn'd mind if it is not.
[11:23] <rogpeppe> Aram: i don't see any situation in which we want to call Initialize twice on the same mongo (apart from if we've reset everything in tests)
[12:55] <niemeyer> Morning all!
[12:59] <fwereade> niemeyer, heyhey
[13:02] <andrewsmedina> niemeyer: morning :D
[13:03] <niemeyer> fwereade, andrewsmedina: Heyas
[13:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yo!
[13:08] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: new SetAdminPassword CL: https://codereview.appspot.com/6586070/
[13:08] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Heya
[13:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sent a review
[13:22] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: thanks
[13:23] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: np
[13:25] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: s.State.Service won't work as a check because s.State now has admin perms. but i guess if i did the SetAdminPassword in a different connection, that might work.
[13:25] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: alternatively, perhaps i could produce a better error message from state.Open
[13:25] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that depends on the mgo errors though
[13:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We can just try to talk to the database then.. I think s.Session will not be authenticated
[13:28] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah, that'll probably work.
[13:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Otherwise, hmm
[13:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It actually sounds like a good idea to have a sane user message in the open case
[13:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Since that's really what people will see
[13:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that's what i thought.
[13:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it depends if there's a reproducible error code though
[13:29] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We can do that without introducing new logic
[13:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah, i'd look at the Code in the error returned from the same operation
[13:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Cool.. I don't recall what the code is, but hopefully there is a well defined on
[13:30] <niemeyer> e
[13:30] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'll have a look. this page is not great: http://www.mongodb.org/display/DOCS/Error+Codes
[13:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Easiest is to simply enable mgo debugging while running that test
[13:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Or just print out the error, realy
[13:32] <niemeyer> really
[13:32] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was gonna print the error %#v
[13:44] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: done. https://codereview.appspot.com/6586070
[13:58] <niemeyer> rogpepper: Sorry, forgot to ping back.. that's ready
[13:59] <niemeyer> Hmm.. getting spam from the Corinthia hotel in Lisbon.. how unfortunate
[14:21] <niemeyer> Aram: Watcher is so much better, thank you
[14:21] <Aram> niemeyer: thanks.
[14:21] <Aram> indeed it is
[14:21] <Aram> I'm doing the SUW now
[14:22] <Aram> and SRW afterwards
[14:42] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i think we might need two admin accounts
[14:42] <rogpeppe> s/accounts/users/
[14:43] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: because there's a difficulty with our proposed method of sending the hash of the password - the remote side never gets to know the actual admin secret
[14:44] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: In a call, but will be with you in a moment
[14:44] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: np
[15:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: SO
[15:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: SO
[15:15] <niemeyer> :)
[15:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i have a possible solution
[15:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I suspect we can handle that nicely by setting the password on the first connection, as we vaguely alluded to yesterday
[15:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: once we've done that, how does the server side connect to the state?
[15:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: (it doesn't know the admin secret)
[15:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: And it shouldn't, I believe
[15:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: indeed
[15:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so the question remains
[15:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: That's the case we covered before we went into the admin password
[15:19] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: to put it more clearly, perhaps: when the bootstrap machine reboots, what password does the PA use to reconnect to the state?
[15:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The machine agent should use the machine password
[15:20] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ah, ok, so nothing on the bootstrap machine needs access to admin privileges
[15:20] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that makes sense.
[15:21] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yes, its password should give access to everything it needs
[15:21] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so... how would you feel about jujud bootstrap-state being responsible for starting the initial machine agent?
[15:21] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Of course, nowadays that's all mostly silly since passwords give access to the whole database, but once we front the API with a server, we'll be able to cut down privileges
[15:22] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it's not *that* silly - the admin account does have more privileges than most
[15:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'd feel like that's unnecessary and redundant.. we have to handle the case of a machine getting its password anyway
[15:22] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yes, but someone has to create the password for the new machine
[15:23] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: and i think that should probably be bootstrap-state
[15:23] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yes, that's a good task for bootstrap-state..
[15:23] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: After all, it creates the machine in the first place
[15:24] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so if bootstrap-state is writing stuff specifically for the machine agent, it would seem reasonable for it to actually start the agent too
[15:24] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so we haven't got too much action-at-a-distance going on
[15:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Don't see the leap
[15:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: bootstrap-state has to create a machine and set its password, because it's bootstrapping
[15:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Every single time a machine is started, we need to run the machine agent.. that's not special
[15:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: No reason to put special code inside the bootstrap-state command to do things that are common
[15:27] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it has to do more than set its password - it has to write a file containing the machine agent's password to disk, i think
[15:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I don't think so.. the machine agent itself can write its own file to disk
[15:27] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: how does the machine agent find out its own password?
[15:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Like it generally would anyway
[15:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: How will it find its own password when we're creating a machine that is not the bootstrap machine?
[15:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: the PA writes a cloudinit that creates the file holding a random password
[15:29] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Why are we creating a file?
[15:30] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: because want the MA to be able to restart and find its key again
[15:30] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: and we don't want the key in the upstart file
[15:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The machine agent itself can create its own file
[15:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Why not?
[15:33] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i guess it's no harm. i was thinking that we didn't want to have the client create the initial MA key, but perhaps it's ok. we're actually only vulnerable if we run units on the bootstrap machine, which we can't do until the MA has changed its password and started work.
[15:33] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Exactly
[15:33] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so we pass the initial password as a flag to the MA, which is ignored if the key file already exists.
[15:34] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: and we need to hand off the password anyway in the general case, since otherwise the machine won
[15:34] <niemeyer> 't be able to talk back
[15:34] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yeah, --initial-password
[15:34] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: So explicitly something that won't be around for long
[15:35] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm thinking there's no point in doing the two-stage thing for unit agents, but what do you think?
[15:36] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I think it wouldn't hurt to do the same mechanism, and may have relevant semantics in specific cases
[15:36] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok
[15:36] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: For example, it means the principal unit loses access to the subordinate unit after it's started
[15:36] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: interesting point, yes
[15:37] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: although i'm not sure you lose access to a connection if its password is changed.
[15:39] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: This aspect will only be relevant once we have a frontend API instead of direct connection to the database.. right now the passwords will be interchangeable
[15:42] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: here's a sketch of my understanding of this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1258227/
[15:43] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: On bootstrap-state, I suppose we should set the admin password first thing
[15:44] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What's pbkdf and what's the benefit of using it?
[15:46] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: http://go.pkgdoc.org/code.google.com/p/go.crypto/pbkdf2
[15:46] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: 2) I think we only need one initial password to bootstrap-state and the machine agent
[15:46] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm not sure that works
[15:47] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: the benefit of using pbkdf2 is that noone can crack the password even if they've got access to the cloudinit file
[15:48] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ha, yeah, maybe you're right about needing only one password
[15:50] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You mean it'll be more expensive to crack, okay
[15:50] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah, like unfeasible expensive, i believe
[15:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You're slowing down the cost count-times, specifically.. that's different from infeasible
[15:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah. but if the cost count times are slowed down enough (imagine 1 second per test) it becomes infeasible for the indefinite future.
[15:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: well, ok 5 years :-)
[15:53] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Cool, +1
[15:53] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: cool
[15:54] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: this is my latest version of the sketch: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1258245/
[15:54] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Let's embed the function instead of importing the package
[15:54] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: why not import the package? it's supported by the core Go team
[15:55] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Because it means another external import and repository in exchange for 25 lines of code
[15:56] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok. how about launchpad.net/juju-core/go.crypto/pbkdf2 ?
[15:56] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so the origin is obvious
[15:56] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: and we can easily import other packages from go.crypto as necessary
[15:57] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: juju-core/thirdparty/pbkdf2?
[15:57] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: If we start to depend on more stuff from go.crypto, that'd justify using the external package itself
[15:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'd prefer to keep go.crypto in the path (particular as pbkdf2 is such a non-obvious name)
[15:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: but i don't feel too strongly
[15:58] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: There's content inside it indicating its origin
[15:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok
[15:59] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: That also defines the pattern.. if have other similar needs, or depend on poorly maintained external packages, we just stick them in there
[15:59] <niemeyer> if we
[16:00] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: how about we put a comment at the top of the file // Original at code.google.com/p/go.crypto/pbkdf2
[16:00] <rogpeppe> ?
[16:00] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: +1
[16:01] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so, does my final version of the sketch LGTY?
[16:01] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sorry, haven't seen it..
[16:01]  * niemeyer looks
 rogpeppe: On bootstrap-state, I suppose we should set the admin password first thing
[16:01] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: ?
[16:02] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i think it's good to set the admin password as the last thing actually
[16:02] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so that people can't connect until we've set up all the state we want to
[16:03] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it gives us an atomic initialize again, without needing to try
[16:03] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: That's why I think we should set it first.. ?
[16:03] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Ah, no, I see..
[16:04] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sounds good
[16:04] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: cool.
[16:04] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: anything else?
[16:05] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yeah, we'll need to retry on unauth, I suppose
[16:06] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i don't think you can connect at all until SetAdminPassword is called
[16:06] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Have you tested that?
[16:06] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah, although not formally
[16:07] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Formally!? :-)
[16:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i didn't write a test for it
[16:07] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Have you run mongo with auth and tried to connect?
[16:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yes
[16:07] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Okay
[16:07] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What happens?
[16:07] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i got connection refused forever
[16:08] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: well, for 10 minutes until the connect timed out
[16:08] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was wondering about the other way around actually: does mongodb connect fail immediately if it gets an unauth error?
[16:09] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Interesting.. just did a trivial test and it connects fine..
[16:09] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we don't want the first connection to take 10 minutes because it's constantly retrying after it's been told it's unauthorized
[16:09] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: from another machine?
[16:09] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: and it says it's unauthorized
[16:10] <niemeyer>         "$err" : "unauthorized db:test ns:test.test lock type:0 client:<IP_ADDRESS>",
[16:10] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that *was* from a different machine, right?
[16:10] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: maybe my diagnosis of the failure before was wrong.
[16:11] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: If I connected to the local address, it would work, no?
[16:11] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: the auth access is based on your source address, i believe
[16:12] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: but, yeah, i'd expect it to fail if you connected to 192.168... rather than 127.1
[16:13] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It doesn't fail, and you get an unauthorized
[16:13] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: hmm, i wonder what was going on in my failed test then
[16:14] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Were you testing on EC2?
[16:14] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yes.
[16:14] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was just running the usual ec2 live tests
[16:14] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Did you open the security group port?
[16:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i removed the --auth flag from environs/cloudinit and the live tests worked fine
[16:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sorry, I don't see how that's related to the issue
[16:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: live tests work fine if you remove --auth, because they currently work fine.. (?)
[16:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: sure. but adding --auth made the tests hang for 10 minutes trying to connect
[16:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: it didn't fail immediately with an unauth error
[16:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: If you want to test the behavior of --auth, just fire a mongodb and try to connect to it.. inferring behavior because live tests broke anyhow isn't a good way to verify behavior
[16:18] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: true nuff
[16:18] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'll bootstrap an instance and play with it
[16:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I can test this as easily as running mongod, and trying to connect to the machine ip
[16:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: (the machine ip, no <IP_ADDRESS>)
[16:19] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i've only got one machine :-)
[16:19] <niemeyer> not
[16:19] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: This test only needs a single machine
[16:20] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: actually it occurs to me that the external connection will be connecting from 127.1 to 127.1 anyway, because we're using ssh port forwarding
[16:25] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Besides that, looks the scheme looks good
[16:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Still wanna talk about the location for the password, but that's a trivial for later
[16:26] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok, cool
[16:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Thanks for the write up.. nice to debate like this
[16:26] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: np. i needed it to get the pieces straight in my head.
[16:27] <niemeyer> I'm heading to lunch, biab
[17:00]  * niemeyer respawns
[17:48] <niemeyer> Aram: ping
[17:49] <Aram> niemeyer: pong
[17:49] <niemeyer> Aram: Yo
[17:49] <Aram> hi
[17:50] <niemeyer> Aram: Just sent one last round.. please let me know if it sounds reasonable
[17:50] <Aram> ok, reading now
[17:51] <niemeyer> Aram: Just sent a last note regarding the copying.. we don't need to touch the database as I suggested before
[17:51] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: the old SetPassword CL is back, with better tests. i have  confidence that it's really working now :-) https://codereview.appspot.com/6587060
[17:54] <rogpeppe> i'm off for the night. see y'all tomorrow!
[17:56] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Thanks, and have a good evening!
[18:05] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Awesome tests
[18:38] <Aram> niemeyer: changed the watcher.
[18:38] <Aram> I'm off now
[18:38] <niemeyer> Aram: Have a good evening
[18:39] <Aram> thanks
[18:41] <Aram> niemeyer: oops, I fucked up something
[18:41] <niemeyer> Aram: Ah, Alive I suppose
[18:41] <Aram> yeah.
[18:41] <Aram> that breaks two tests
[18:41] <Aram> hmm
[18:41] <niemeyer> Aram: Yeah, the original was good
[18:42] <Aram> I'll revert it
[18:42] <niemeyer> Aram: LGTM with that reverted and assuming all the tests pass
[18:42] <Aram> thanks
[18:42] <niemeyer> Aram: Thanks!
[19:11] <niemeyer> fwereade_: ping
[19:44] <fss> niemeyer: ping
[19:45] <niemeyer> fss: Yo
[19:46] <fss> niemeyer: I'm adding support for some IAM actions on goamz, would you be interested in merging it? :)
[19:47] <niemeyer> fss: Definitely
[19:50] <fss> niemeyer: cool. I will split the changes that I've already made and send them to you in parts
[19:50] <niemeyer> fss: Brilliant, thank you
[20:03] <fwereade_> niemeyer, pong
[20:09] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Heya
[20:09] <fwereade_> niemeyer, heyhey
[20:09] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Ended up just sending a note in the review so you can process at a better time
[20:10] <fwereade_> niemeyer, lovely, cheers, bit distracted tonight :)
[20:11] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Nice :)
[20:39] <fwereade_> OOPS: 102 passed, 2 FAILED, 3 FIXTURE-PANICKED, 26 MISSED
[20:39] <fwereade_> --- FAIL: TestPackage (22.84 seconds)
[20:39] <fwereade_> FAIL
[20:39] <fwereade_> FAIL	launchpad.net/juju-core/state	22.885s
[20:39] <fwereade_> niemeyer, is this known? ^^
[20:40] <fwereade_> niemeyer, the first panic is "need to login"
[20:43] <fwereade_> niemeyer, that is on trunk, and matches what I get on my branch; my changes merge cleanly with whatever broke, AFAICT, so I don't think I'm making anything worse by submitting :)
[20:44] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Oh nos
[20:44] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Hold on
[20:45] <fwereade_> niemeyer, sorry, I think it has landed already
[20:45] <fwereade_> niemeyer, bad call? :(
[20:47] <niemeyer> fwereade_: It's just good to confirm what is actually breaking, and whether your own branch passes cleanly without the breakage
[20:47] <niemeyer> fwereade_: I'm investigating.. it's probably the admin password logic
[20:47] <niemeyer> I wonder how rogpeppe didn't get this
[20:48] <fwereade_> niemeyer, ah sorry -- ISTM that clean tests before merge + failures identical with trunk after merge = independent logic
[20:48] <fwereade_> niemeyer, but I bet I could construct a suitably fiendish counterexample
[20:49] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Just running tip with his changes reverted
[20:49] <niemeyer> tests on top
[20:49] <niemeyer> tip
[20:49]  * fwereade_ frets, hopefully baselessly
[20:49] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Yeah, all good
[20:49] <fwereade_> niemeyer, cool
[20:49] <niemeyer> So, let me see if I can fix so I don't have to revert
[20:55] <niemeyer> fwereade_: This may be a difference between our mongod version and rogpeppe's
[20:55] <fwereade_> niemeyer, ahh
[20:59] <niemeyer> Nasty
[20:59] <niemeyer> I've heard there's some improvements coming around auth in 2.4.. I hope that's the case, because it's a seriously half-baked story ATM
[21:00] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Fixed.. proposing in a mom
[21:06] <niemeyer> fwereade_: https://codereview.appspot.com/6602048
[21:06]  * fwereade_ looks
[21:07] <fwereade_> niemeyer, LGTM
[21:07] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Thanks
[21:07] <fwereade_> niemeyer, np :)
[21:45]  * niemeyer steps out to meet friends


[14:35] <yano> http://www.10tv.com/article/amber-alert-ohio-car-stolen-columbus-4-year-old-child-sleeping-backseat
[14:35] <jenni> [ Amber Alert issued in Columbus for missing 4-year-old girl | WBNS-10TV Columbus, Ohio | Columbus News, Weather & Sports ] - https://bit.ly/2kLKXJ6
[16:46] <dzho> :(


[03:37] <Guest45157> hello
[03:37] <Guest45157> anybody there?
[03:40] <gaurav__> #kubuntu
[03:40] <gaurav__> #kubuntu..i need to know what has changed since kubuntu 12.10 and 13.04
[03:42] <gaurav__> #kubuntu i need to know what has changed since kubuntu 12.10 and 13.04
[05:12] <DarthFrog> So how come no-one pointed him to the Changelog?
[05:12] <DarthFrog> Or were we all (like me) busy on other windows?
[05:12] <valorie> I just got here
[05:12] <goodtime> hello
[05:12] <DarthFrog> Welcome, valorie
[05:12] <valorie> but you would think he would have looked at kubuntu.org to see the diff
[05:13] <goodtime> my flshplayer is all messed up looking
[05:13] <goodtime> hmmm
[05:13] <valorie> well, I meant 'just got here tonight'
[05:13] <valorie> but thanks, DarthFrog
[05:13] <goodtime> its all blue and purple lol
[05:14] <goodtime> any ideas
[05:14] <valorie> I actually started to answer, but the questioner had left already
[05:14] <Unit193> Tried to disable h/w accel?
[05:14] <DarthFrog> valorie:  Frequently pointing someone to where they can find the answer is more valuable than giving them the answer.  And usually less work. :-)
[05:15] <DarthFrog> goodtime: I presume you tried restarting the app?
[05:15] <goodtime> has anyone eles had this problem
[05:15] <goodtime> ive rebooted alot also
[05:15] <goodtime> its weird looking when it plays
[05:15] <DarthFrog> goodtime:  That's a nuisance.  :-)
[05:16] <DarthFrog> Sorry, I don't have an answer for you.  Nor have I experienced your issue.
[05:17] <goodtime> yes its a differnt thing ive incounterd here
[05:21] <DarthFrog> Anyway, I'm off.  goodnight all.
[05:25] <goodtime> good night DarthFrog
[05:26] <valorie> hey goodtime -- is this in FF, Chromium, or what?
[05:26] <valorie> and which version of kubuntu
[05:26] <valorie> I noticed a flash update yesterday or so, in 13.04
[05:26]  * Unit193 thinks he can't be seen. :P
[05:27] <valorie> in 12.10 I had a lot of flash problems
[05:27] <goodtime> firefox and rekong
[05:27] <valorie> non since upgrade
[05:27] <goodtime> im running 12.04lts
[05:27] <valorie> ha
[05:27] <Unit193> Ok, so I'll try again, did you try to disable hardware accel in flash?
[05:28] <valorie> so you might try chromium
[05:28] <goodtime> no 13.04 sorry
[05:28] <goodtime> ok ill try it
[05:28] <valorie> I got really tired of FF and flash problems
[05:28] <Unit193> If you use chromium, you also have to download and setup PPAPI/pepper flash or it'll be the exact same version in firefox, no difference...
[05:29] <goodtime> oh man
[05:29] <valorie> Unit193: I have not done that
[05:29] <valorie> and have no problems
[05:29] <goodtime> ill try to dl it and install pepper then
[05:29] <Unit193> Then you are still using NPAPI flash.
[05:30] <valorie> that said, I haven't tried again in FF
[05:30] <valorie> Unit193: I have whatever is stock
[05:30] <Unit193> valorie: Chromium, not Google Chrome, right?
[05:31] <valorie> yes, that's what kubuntu offers
[05:31] <Unit193> goodtime: It isn't hard, I've even made a script that does it all for you. :P
[05:31] <valorie> with FF I had to use flash aid
[05:31] <valorie> and it still sucked a bit
[05:31] <goodtime> well thats coo but im not that advanced
[05:32] <valorie> that's why I would rather use just what's offered
[05:32] <valorie> unfortunately, rekonq isn't quite there yet for me
[05:33] <valorie> and I 've been using FF from the beginning
[05:33] <valorie> but it just hasn't kept up to Chromium IMO
[05:34] <goodtime> heh i think 13.10 is out now
[05:35] <valorie> well, it is in development
[05:35] <Unit193> It's October already? ;)
[05:36] <valorie> it will be "out" in October
[05:36] <valorie> some of the devels are running it, but usually in VMs
[05:36] <goodtime> lol
[05:36] <valorie> 6 month release cadence
[05:37] <Unit193> Normal warning, this downloads something outside of the repos, and doesn't have any means of updating itself so could quickly become a security risk: http://unit193.tk/download-flash
[05:45] <goodtime> didnt work hmm
[05:47] <valorie> what didn't work?
[05:48] <goodtime> the flash install in kate i just did
[05:49] <goodtime> it didnt hurt anything either thank goodness
[05:49] <valorie> in kate?
[05:50] <goodtime> yeah that sit Unit193 just spammed was a install that default installed in kate
[05:50] <goodtime> didnt do a thing
[05:50] <goodtime> site*
[05:51] <Unit193> Kate is a text editor...
[05:51] <tsimpson> it may have opened the text file in kate, but it certainly didn't install in kate
[05:51] <goodtime> right
[05:51] <goodtime> ok
[05:51] <lorddelta> Hi, how to reset the kwallet daemon? I tried, long and hard, to figure out how, but my kubuntu desktop is broken; had to login via other means. Basically I was getting a "no-agent" message.
[05:51] <goodtime> thats why it did nothing then lol
[05:51] <goodtime> im kinda a noob
[05:51] <goodtime> kinda not
[05:51] <goodtime> idk
[05:51] <lorddelta> Something in recent updates screwed with it I'm assuming
[05:51] <lorddelta> running 12.04.02
[05:52] <goodtime> im running 13.04 i forgot im running one of my other desktops
[05:52] <valorie> goodtime: you tried installing something you didn't understand?
[05:52] <goodtime> my laptop is 12.04lts
[05:52] <valorie> rather than installing a trusted kubuntu package?
[05:53] <goodtime> yes i did valorie because i guess i trusted
[05:53] <valorie> sounds like a good way to mess up your computer, to me
[05:53] <valorie> I'm glad it didn't do so
[05:53] <goodtime> so i install or tryed to fix something by asking in here
[05:53] <valorie> and I advised a package from the repositories
[05:53] <goodtime> ok
[05:54] <valorie> Chromium-browser
[05:54] <goodtime> yes
[05:54] <goodtime> i do have it installed
[05:54] <goodtime> brb
[05:56] <valorie> !flash
[05:56] <valorie> heh
[05:56] <lorddelta> What did goodtime do?
[05:57] <lorddelta> If anyone knows the dbus magiks that makes kwallet restart, or any relevant system config to check, would appreciate it.
[05:58] <goodtime>  apt-get install kubuntu-restricted-extras didnt work either hmm
[05:58] <lorddelta> Otherwise I'm stuck uninstalling/re-installing various kde libraries until something starts working again :P
[05:59] <valorie> lorddelta: have you done some googling?
[05:59] <goodtime> wow this is kinda a headache
[05:59] <lorddelta> Indeed. The googling on the error was rather unhelpful.
[05:59] <valorie> uninstalling/reinstalling random libraries sounds rather extreme
[05:59] <lorddelta> Yeah well.
[05:59] <valorie> I would ask in #kde as well
[05:59] <lorddelta> Not having access to the internet to fix your problem is kinda extreme.
[05:59] <valorie> sure
[06:00] <lorddelta> I can assure you I will continue random googling if I don't find the answer in this channel :P
[06:01] <goodtime> ok ty i do appreicate it lorddelta/ valorie
[06:01] <valorie> as I said, #kde and/or #kde-devel might be more helpful
[06:02] <valorie> !kwallet
[06:02] <valorie> interesting
[06:02] <lorddelta> Quite. I thought it was polkit that was going awry.
[06:02] <lorddelta> But I managed to (I think) eliminate the possibility while offline.
[06:03] <lorddelta> !polkit
[06:05] <valorie> ~info polkit
[06:05] <valorie> fiddlesticks
[06:05] <valorie> !info polkit
[06:06] <lorddelta> O.o
[06:06] <valorie> ummmm
[06:06] <lorddelta> 'apt-cache search polkit'
[06:06] <lorddelta> I assure you it exists
[06:06] <lorddelta> Can you run cmd in here?
[06:06] <lorddelta> !apt-cache search polkit
[06:06] <lorddelta> Nope
[06:08] <IdleOne> !search polkit
[06:08] <IdleOne> apparently nothing
[06:08] <lorddelta> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/polkit/
[06:08] <tsimpson> !find polkit
[06:09] <IdleOne> thank you tsimpson :)
[06:09] <lorddelta> I guessed that it might have been responsible because the network settings panel couldn't speak to the "agent"
[06:09] <lorddelta> lol
[06:11] <lorddelta> I sorta abandoned the prospect of figuring out what was going awry once I realized just how complicated dbus services are. X_X
[06:12] <lorddelta> At least till I had internet again.
[06:12]  * lorddelta stops rambling
[06:14] <zw> hell everyone
[06:15] <zw> how can i install the packages in live_cd
[06:17] <valorie> zw, you mean rather than downloading them from the repositories?
[06:18] <zw> yep
[06:20] <zw> valorie: can you tell me how can
[06:21] <valorie> as I recall, as long as the cd/dvd/usb is still in the drive, it will be used first
[06:22] <valorie> why do you want to do it this way, zw?
[06:23] <valorie> expensive connection?
[06:24] <zw> valorie: the network is connected.i want to install "gdisk" ,apt-get install gdisk.but i don't know how to install. i boot ubuntu from live_cd
[06:25] <valorie> while you are booted, I don't think it can be used to install anything
[06:25] <valorie> unless you chroot in
[06:25] <valorie> !chroot
[06:25] <valorie> that might help you
[06:28] <zw> ok,i will try. thanks a lot!
[06:47] <lorddelta> Hmm, do services in a 32-bit chroot run on their own kernel or do they run on the real kernel?
[06:49] <tsimpson> chroot doesn't change the kernel, only the root of the filesystem
[06:49] <valorie> they run in the kernel from the live session
[06:49] <valorie> it's just a way to work on the new install
[06:50] <valorie> usually because there is a grub problem
[08:38] <rohdef> I'm trying to make an rdp connection to a Windows Server 2012 using krdp, but after I've entered my credentials it simply stands there with blue background and very long horizontal and vertical scroll bars, as if trying to load something it can't, what can I do to fix that?
[08:41] <IggyKoopa> rohdef: you could try using rdesktop just to rule out if it's a configuration or application issue.
[08:42] <rohdef> IggyKoopa, will try
[08:47] <rohdef> IggyKoopa, it says: ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer... I wonder if the server is down, but the behavior is exactly the same as when I confirmed it running
[08:49] <rohdef> IggyKoopa, nopes, server is running fine :/ just confirmed it from a VM
[08:52] <rohdef> oh: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7443267/what-version-of-rdp-is-used-in-windows-8/ oh bugger
[08:56] <Guest74979>  hey I am getting these errors http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=P2Bg4dra even after heena@heena:~$ sudo apt-get build-dep kde4libs could you suggest something? LibAttica version installed is 0.4.1
[08:57] <Guest74979> @murthy any help ? :P
[09:01] <tsimpson> Guest74979: 0.4.1 is not greater or equal to 0.4.2, so you'd need a newer version to build whatever it is you're building
[09:01] <Guest74979> I know ..but how to upgrade it to newer version??
[09:04] <tsimpson> download it and compile it I suppose
[09:04] <tsimpson> perhaps steel the package from saucy
[09:14] <Guest74979> @tsimpson I cloned it from git kde:attica then make ,But while make install I got errors CMake Error at lib/cmake_install.cmake:56 (FILE):   file INSTALL cannot copy file   "/home/heena/attica/build/lib/libattica.so.0.4.2" to   "/usr/local/lib/libattica.so.0.4.2". Call Stack (most recent call first):   cmake_install.cmake:37 (INCLUDE)   make: *** [install] Error 1
[09:15] <tsimpson> you need sudo to install
[09:15] <tsimpson> "sudo make install"
[09:19] <Guest74979> oh yeah .. thanks
[09:36] <martin__> hi. Please help me with pulseaudio. I've great problems with skype. Echo on microphone input (headset) and the output is fixed to HDMI! I cannot change it to the headset!
[09:49] <chrisirc> Hi. Is there any relevant difference between installing kubuntu from scratch and "apt-get install kubuntu-desktop" on plain Ubuntu?
[09:49] <chrisirc> (Other than the difference in amount of work/time/space)
[09:52] <tsimpson> chrisirc: nope
[10:44] <chrisirc> Thanks. (It would be nice if that were mentioned on the kubuntu website somewhere.)
[10:45] <tsimpson> !kubuntu
[10:45] <tsimpson> it was somewhere...
[10:46] <tsimpson> !kubuntu-desktop
[10:47] <tsimpson> well it's the same for *buntu, if you install the ubuntu-desktop package in Kubuntu you get the same as a regular Ubuntu install + a regular Kubuntu install
[10:48] <tsimpson> just different default packages (for the GUI) sharing the same base packages for the system
[10:50] <BluesKaj> Howdy all
[11:39] <Guest74979> Hey I am getting  cmake error : Could NOT find XCB (missing: XCB_LIBRARIES XCB_INCLUDE_DIR)  Could you tell from where to install the latest version?
[11:43] <BluesKaj> Guest74979, have you updated/upgraded lately ?
[11:44] <Guest74979> I think xcb is not installed isnt it?
[11:46] <tsimpson> make sure you have libx11-xcb-dev installed
[11:46] <tsimpson> building stuff generally requires -dev packages
[11:47] <Guest74979> sudp apt-get install libx11-xcb-dev shall help @tsimpson ?
[11:47] <Guest74979> *sudo
[11:47] <tsimpson> it may
[11:48] <tsimpson> xcb is a mess, but I'd expect it to help
[11:48] <Guest74979> naah still the same error
[11:50] <tsimpson> you should check the documentation or contact the author of the software and ask them what it requires
[11:52] <tsimpson> `apt-cache search "X C Binding"|grep -- -dev|wc -l` gives me 28 possible packages it could be asking for, who knows which it wants
[12:25] <Esokrates> jerry5: that would be insane
[12:26] <Esokrates> jerry5: you could loose all your data, as all applications would get killed
[12:30] <xtrmkevor> hi! is there a way to tell krunner which paths it should scan for programs / files ?
[15:05] <xtrmkevor> how can i change the keyboard layout for the login screen? its always us by default :/
[15:42] <deb_> Hi,I want to know that I got some display problem in lightDM greeter ,so what to do now??Please help
[15:47] <deb_> anybody??
[16:09] <duo_> sorry for my english
[16:09] <duo_> Hi I'm putting together a kubuntu live, I need to know where is the configuration file for the default theme (I want oxigen) and the window decoration (want plastik)
[16:10] <duo_> I'm using UCK
[16:51] <canin> what are the ssl settings for this server... v3 port...?
[17:08] <agrigini> CIAO
[17:08] <agrigini> HO UN PROBLEMA CON WINE
[18:36] <vladimir_> Anyone in the room?
[18:42] <linux> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:42] <linux> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:42] <linux> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:42] <linux> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:42] <FloodBotK1> linux: Please don't flood; use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste; don't use Enter as punctuation.
[18:44] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:45] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:45] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:45] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[18:45] <FloodBotK1> pussy: Please don't flood; use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste; don't use Enter as punctuation.
[18:46] <OerHeks> pussy without patience it will be very tough
[18:47] <pussy> how to make?
[18:47] <pussy> from ubuntu remix
[18:47] <OerHeks> This is Kubuntu support, better ask in #ubuntu
[18:48] <pussy> how kubuntu is made?
[18:48] <OerHeks> ubuntu remix is not an oifficial derivate AFAIK
[19:05] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[19:12] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu? (no bad peoples please)
[19:14] <pussy> how to make linux distro based on ubuntu?
[19:30] <canin> 261 users and 0 ops? lol
[19:31] <cahir> ?
[19:32] <canin> no moderators
[19:38] <Artakha> canin, there's always the almighty floodserv upon us :p
[19:39] <BluesKaj> canin, don't worry , we're being monitored :)
[19:40] <canin> I'm using Cinnamon and KDE... I wonder which has more users these days. A lot have moved to KDE from unity being lame, a lot went Cinnamon for the same reason.
[19:40] <canin> We're all being spied upon :(
[19:48] <Orion__> ssf
[19:48] <Orion__> hi there
[20:05] <CoJaBo> Is there a way to adjust pointer speed/sensitivity for the mouse seperately from touchpad? Currently, I have to manually change the settings whenever I switch between the two
[20:09] <armin> CoJaBo: probably only from the x config
[20:09] <CoJaBo> how do i do that?
[20:09] <armin> CoJaBo: and that's just a wild guess agai
[20:09] <armin> n
[20:11] <armin> CoJaBo: well this will get a bit of tinkering around, but to get you started, look at this: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Touchpad_Synaptics#Frequently_used_options
[20:11] <armin> CoJaBo: so basically you create a file for the touchpad in xorg.conf.d and define some options with the "Option" keyword there.
[20:12] <CoJaBo> The problem im having is that the pointer settings for the mouse seem to always apply to the touchpad
[20:13] <armin> that's why i tell you to specify some the hard way one layer below this all, in xorg directly. :)
[20:13] <armin> so basically what you do is: set it so that you're comfortable with the mouse, and then adjust the values for the touchpad, in the file you created, like above.
[20:14] <armin> you probably want the settings "MinSpeed", "MaxSpeed" and "AccelFactor".
[20:14] <armin> be prepared for some tinkering around, killing your x-server, testing again, and so on.
[20:14] <armin> does that make sense to you?
[20:17] <armin> CoJaBo: the good thing is that you only do this one time and then after re-installing your system the next time you can just use the settings from /etc again there.
[20:18] <armin> CoJaBo: sorry if you thought this would be easier, but that's a workaround that will definitely do the job.
[20:20] <CoJaBo> armin: I actually have all those options from the GUI; if I adjust the mouse enough so its usable, there seems to be no way to tweak the settings so its usable
[20:20] <CoJaBo> The problem is, the pointer speed is too fast by a factor of about 10; if I slow it down that much, and crank the touchpad speed up to try to compensate, it behaves very strangely
[20:21] <armin> CoJaBo: again, that's why i tell you to affect only one of both, specifically the touchpad, in xorg directly. :)
[20:22] <armin> CoJaBo: i know it might be counter-intuitive for you.
[20:22] <CoJaBo> The touchpad doesn't obey only its own settings
[20:22] <armin> CoJaBo: well i told you a way that will work.
[20:22] <CoJaBo> And I dont see a way from that link to tell it to use a different setting for the pointer
[20:23] <armin> CoJaBo: in that config section you just affect the touchpad acceleration, not the mouse.
[20:23] <CoJaBo> I need to affect only the mouse.
[20:24] <armin> CoJaBo: if you drive with 100mph and a car with 120mph overtakes you, then it doesn't matter how much you slow down the time, you'll not be faster than the other.
[20:24] <CoJaBo> ...?
[20:25] <armin> CoJaBo: as you can't affect the other car, but can accelerate and slow down your own one, you have a chance to adapt the speed of both.
[20:25] <armin> cahir: well, the relation of both speeds.
[20:25] <armin> err
[20:25] <armin> CoJaBo:
[20:25] <armin> CoJaBo: does that make sense?
[20:25] <CoJaBo> I tried slowing down the mouse; if I do that, I can get it to a usable state. From there, the touchpad is profoundly jerky if I speed it up.
[20:26] <armin> CoJaBo: basically you have 2 points where you can define speeds: 1) the GUI, where you affect both, and 2) the xorg config, where you only affect the pad.
[20:26] <armin> CoJaBo: yes, then the link is just what you need.
[20:26] <CoJaBo> What setting do I adjust to fix the jerkiness?
[20:27] <armin> probably MaxSpeed and AccelFactor
[20:27] <armin> to get values to play around with, look at http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-230197.html
[20:27] <armin> point 5
[20:28] <armin> sorry, i'm not a native speaker, so i hope what i tell here makes some kind of sense to you.
[20:28] <armin> :)
[20:28] <CoJaBo> armin: Both those, plus min speed, are exposed thru the GUI
[20:28] <armin> CoJaBo: it will be tinkering around anyways. play with those things.
[20:29] <CoJaBo> I have been, for quite a while; the faster it gets, the jerkier it gets
[20:29] <armin> yes, but only the pad, right?
[20:29] <armin> then AccelFactor is what you need.
[20:29] <armin> and maybe MaxSpeed a bit
[20:29] <armin> but i'd start with AccelFactor
[20:30] <armin> think of it as: if there's a threshold you hit, then the pointer will be faster AccelFactor times, up to a value of MaxSpeed.
[20:33] <CoJaBo> armin: Indeed, its faster, but its jerky
[20:33] <CoJaBo> I cam move smothly in increments of about 40 px
[20:34] <armin> CoJaBo: mhhh, sounds like you still have to play around with it a bit.
[20:34] <armin> CoJaBo: i think this is very very stupid, too. i mean, that you're completely lost if you have 2 pointers, or even 3.
[20:34] <CoJaBo> So theres no way to set seperate ppointer-acceleration per device?
[20:34] <armin> CoJaBo: that's just over-complicating user-interfaces.
[20:35] <CoJaBo> Is there at least a way to set pointer acceleration from command line?
[20:35] <armin> CoJaBo: i think the desktop developers (kde, unity and gnome, all of them) should give users a way to define that per device, each.
[20:35] <armin> CoJaBo: yes. try xset.
[20:35] <armin> CoJaBo: "xset m 4 4" for example.
[20:37] <CoJaBo> armin: Thanks; hackish, but I guess its the best i can do..
[20:37] <armin> CoJaBo: at least you only have 2 pointing devices and not 3. with a thinkpad with trackpad, trackpoint and mouse attached via usb things get funny.
[20:38] <armin> :)
[20:38] <armin> welcome
[20:38] <CoJaBo> If its impossible with 2, it wouldn't be any more impossible with 3 :P
[20:38] <armin> depends on your interpretation of "impossibility". :)
[20:39] <CoJaBo> Im just going to set it to change the setting when the mouse is plugged in/unplugged >_>
[20:39] <armin> CoJaBo: probably the best you can do.
[21:00] <woutor> join #ZorinOS
[21:00] <woutor> Sorry.