[02:27] <vorian> Nightrose: let me see if we can get some grease on that squeeky wheel
[04:41] <ScottK> How many simultaneous pbuilder sessions does it take to totally crush my laptop? 3.
[04:42] <nixternal> heh, that was the same for my main laptop
[04:42]  * ScottK is trying to get R fixed up for Karmic.
[04:43] <nixternal> jeesh...every website I sign up to, I must put in my dang birthday...117 emails wishing me a happy birthday
[04:43] <nixternal> silly UTC webservers
[04:44] <nixternal> ScottK: heh, I am meeting with Dirk in the next week or so to do some cycling, enjoy a frosty beverage, and share some GPG keys again
[04:44] <ScottK> nixternal: Cool.  Please ask him to look over our package versions and see if I missed anything important.
[04:45] <ScottK> nixternal: He was at the last UDS and gave a great presentation.  I met him there.
[04:45] <nixternal> oh, he is keeping an eye on it, don't worry :)
[04:45] <nixternal> he lives about 15 miles from me, so we meet up whenever we can
[04:45] <nixternal> now that we have Christoph Lameter, another Kernel haxor and DD, we tend to try and meet up more often
[09:05] <dpm> JontheEchidna: hi! re: the %n bugs we were discussing last night, I've tried to collect them all and reported it as bug 406221. I also contacted the Spanish guys to correct them. All translations come from the same translator, and I'm not sure whether he explicitly made the mistake. As all of those are #, kde-format strings, I think perhaps something similar to this -> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2009-July/002604.html lead to
[09:05] <dpm> the bug.
[09:33] <Nightrose> vorian: thx :)
[09:33] <OdyX> Tonio_: ping
[09:49] <Riddell> well, first translations problem, install a language and it only installs the gnome language packs :(
[09:50] <dpm> ArneGoetje: ^
[09:54] <Riddell> same on both qt- and gnome-language-selector
[09:55] <Riddell> LangCache.py:        ("kdelibs-data", "language-pack-kde-"),
[09:55] <Riddell> that's why, needs updating for KDE 4
[09:57] <ArneGoetje> dpm: known issue, I'm currently rebuilding language packs
[09:57] <dpm> Riddell: re: bug 378075 I've talked to mvo and he's having a look at it
[09:59] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: which packages need to be installed in addition to langauge-pack-kde- for every KDE user? And which ones are optional translations, depending on a specific base package to be installed?
[09:59] <dpm> There might be some work to be done than simply uploading the corrected translations -> "<mvo> dpm: I'm not sure about this particular problem now, it seems that it crashes the apt-xapian-index, so maybe that needs a additional fix. depends on if it accesses the transltions through (python-)apt or directly"
[10:02] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: needs to be installed for what?
[10:02] <Riddell> dpm: good luck to him :)
[10:02] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: for complete translations
[10:04] <dpm> I didn't experience the problem with the kde language packs though (they are installed and now have been upgraded to the karmic ones), probably because in my Kubuntu Karmic I installed them before the Karmic ones were uploaded.
[10:06] <ArneGoetje> dpm: the dependencies in the debian/control files are broken. That's why I'm rebuilding the packages.
[10:07] <dpm> right
[10:08] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: should be just the language packs, but there's a problem
[10:08] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: the language-pack-xx-base packages don't contain /usr/share/locale-langpack/xx/entry.desktop
[10:09] <Riddell> in karmic
[10:09] <Riddell> which means KDE won't use them
[10:09] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: in which source packages are these entry.desktop files?
[10:10] <Riddell> ArneGoetje:  well they come from kde-l10n-xx and should end up in language-pack-kde-xx-base
[10:11] <Riddell> I don't know how that works, pitti set it up originally and it always just has
[10:14] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: are those the the desktop_kde-l10n-$LANG.pot templates in the kde-l10n-$LANG packages?
[10:16] <dpm> I've just asked pitti to com here for a second, maybe he can tell us more
[10:17] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: is it necessary to install the kde-l10n-$LANG packages in addition to the language-pack-kde- ones?
[10:19] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: good point, you need kde-l10n-xx for documentation and some other bits (translated sounds for some edu apps etc)
[10:19] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: no desktop_kde-l10n-xx are a bug I need to get rid of
[10:20] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: ok.
[10:20] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: entry.desktop do come from kde-l10n-xx though
[10:20] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: so, if we install kde-l10n-xx as a dependency of language-pack-kde-xx through language-selector, this problem should be solved, right?
[10:21] <pitti> hello
[10:21] <Riddell> cor, it's pitti, nice holiday?
[10:21] <pitti> Riddell: yes, it was indeed! http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/back-from-mini-vacation-and-climbing/
[10:22] <Riddell> pitti: entry.desktop files have disappeared from language-pack-kde-xx-base in karmic, do you know where they might have gone to?
[10:22] <ArneGoetje> pitti: how were they added in the past?
[10:22] <pitti> uh, no
[10:23] <pitti> they were added manually to extra-files/*.tar
[10:23] <pitti> $ tar tf extra-files/kde-de.tar
[10:23] <pitti> usr/share/locale-langpack/de/
[10:23] <pitti> usr/share/locale-langpack/de/entry.desktop
[10:23] <pitti> seems they are still there at least in langpack-o-matic
[10:24] <ArneGoetje> pitti: so, they should be in the extra.tar tarball... and the extra.tar tarballs are present in the langauge-packs
[10:24] <pitti> ArneGoetje: yes, they get merged into *-base
[10:24] <ArneGoetje> pitti: I'll check that once the current langpack-o-matic run is finished
[10:25] <pitti> thanks
[10:26] <pitti> perhaps some code change inadvertedly broke it, but the code is still there in "import" and unchanged since ages
[10:29] <ArneGoetje> ok, guys, I need to pick up my son from kindergarten... will be back later.
[10:32] <ArneGoetje> RIddell, pitti: if we add kde-l10n-xx as a dependency to the language-pack-kde-xx ones, the entry.desktop files should also be installed, right?
[10:33] <pitti> ArneGoetje: if they ship it, sure
[10:33] <pitti> I don't know whether that would be desired
[10:34] <RIddell> ArneGoetje: we don't want that, for CDs at least we want to be able to ship language packs without the docs
[10:35] <RIddell> pitti: seems like a good time to  update those kde-xx.tar in langpack-o-matic
[10:35] <pitti> ArneGoetje: there is a script extra-files/update-kde-tars which should do that
[10:36] <ArneGoetje> pitti: will do that later
[10:37]  * ArneGoetje is off, bbl
[10:43] <RIddell> update-kde-tars only creates new language-pack-kde-xx, I mean I should grab the latest entry.desktop from kde-l10n-xx which have some updated translations
[10:44] <pitti> RIddell: I haven't used the script in ages, but I thought you just could wipe extra-files/kde* and run it
[10:46] <RIddell> pitti: no it's just creates new ones where they don't already exist, so that we can have langpacks that KDE doesn't
[10:46] <pitti> ah, I see
[10:47] <RIddell> the new entry.desktop files don't contain any translations
[12:11] <RIddell> ArneGoetje: I updated the update-kde-tars script and pushed to lp:~jr/langpack-o-matic/kde-tars   please merge
[12:15] <RIddell> would this be why the entry.desktop files are missing?  "raise Exception, 'Not yet implemented: tarball merging (locale+extra.tar)'"
[13:08] <Riddell> so working around being unable to install and being unable to select languages, most things seem to be translated
[13:08] <dpm> sounds like a good start :)
[13:09] <Riddell> there's a few apps which aren't, s-c-p-k, kpackagekit, some strings in system settings, kickoff and ironically qt-language-selector
[13:09] <Riddell> I'll look into those
[13:10] <Riddell> infact the whole of plasma isn't
[13:11] <Riddell> dpm: where's the long wiki list of templates you've been editing recently?
[13:11] <dpm> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE/KdeKarmicModules
[13:12] <dpm> there seems to be a template in LP for s-c-p-k at least
[13:13] <dpm> which package do the untranslated strings in system settings come from?
[13:16] <Riddell> dpm: systemsettings.po
[13:16] <Riddell> "Overview" and "Help"
[13:16] <Riddell> let me see what we generate
[13:17] <Riddell> yep the systemsettings.pot from kdebase-workspace contains those strings
[13:18] <Riddell> and the kde language packs contain them too
[13:18] <Riddell> dpm: any idea how they'd get lost?
[13:19] <dpm> Riddell: no idea, the only thing I can think of is that they would actually come from another package or lib
[13:19] <dpm> s/would/could
[13:20] <Riddell> dpm: well do you know if they exist in launchpad?
[13:20] <dpm> let me have a look
[13:21] <dpm> Riddell: by a quick search, they don't seem to be there -> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/kdebase-workspace/+pots/systemsettings/ca/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=overview
[13:22] <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/kdebase-workspace/+pots/systemsettings/ca/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=Overview
[13:23] <dpm> I meant https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/kdebase-workspace/+pots/systemsettings/ca/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=Help
[13:26] <Riddell> dpm: looks like those strings are new since jaunty
[13:26] <Riddell> dpm: but launchpad should have imported the new string surely?
[13:27] <Riddell> who can we drag in here from launchpad to find out why those new strings havn't been imported?
[13:28] <dpm> Riddell: unfortunately no one, henning and danilo are on holiday and jtv is not around today
[13:28] <Riddell> fooey
[13:28] <dpm> but let me see what I can find out
[13:29] <Riddell> system-config-printer-kde is a programming issue, it's not loading the right catalogue, I can look into that
[13:29] <dpm> can you paste the generated systemsettings.pot somewhere? It'll save me building the package
[13:30] <dpm> I can then download the template from LP and compare them
[13:33] <Riddell> dpm:  people.canonical.com/~jr/tmp/systemsettings.pot
[13:33] <dpm> thanks
[13:35] <dpm> Riddell: http://people.canonical.com/~jr/tmp/systemsettings.pot returns 404 (I've tried p.u.c as well, with the same result)
[13:36] <Riddell> dpm: ~jriddell
[13:36] <Riddell> sometimes I forget who I am
[13:36] <dpm> :-)
[13:38] <seaLne> the spamers certainly sem to think you are<EMAIL_ADDRESS>based on the amount i get from "you"
[13:41] <Riddell> that's weird, there's no such address
[13:41] <seaLne> yeah
[13:45] <JontheEchidna> how goes translations love day?
[13:46] <JontheEchidna> dpm: cool
[13:48] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: it's all broken.  but it should all get fixed
[13:51] <dpm> JontheEchidna: well, I think Riddell summarised it quite well ;)
[13:56] <dpm> Where does Computer>Run Command... come from (which app or source pkg)? It's also untranslated on my system
[13:58] <Riddell> dpm: kickoff, part of plasma from kdebase-workspace I think.  but the whole of plasma (the desktop) is untranslated for me
[13:59] <Riddell> hum, is translation templates being generated at all?
[14:00] <Riddell> erk, seems debian-qt-kde.mk doesn't actuall generate translation templates
[14:00] <Riddell> that would explain why rosetta is behind in its strings
[14:00] <Riddell> and why plasma is untranslated, that's a new translation domain it's using
[14:00] <dpm> Riddell: oh, so will this affect a whole load of packages?
[14:00] <Riddell> yeah, lots of them
[14:01] <dpm> that might be the problem with systemsettings as well
[14:01] <Riddell> right, it will be
[14:01] <Riddell> dpm: damn good thing we did the translations love day, we're not short of things to fix!
[14:01] <dpm> :)
[14:01] <JontheEchidna> At least we didn't find this out half a week before release :P
[14:02] <Riddell> new plasma-widget-networkmanagement in https://edge.launchpad.net/~jr/+archive/ppa please test!
[14:03] <Riddell> it's a binary now "knetworkmanager"
[14:03]  * Riddell pokes JontheEchidna into testing
[14:04]  * JontheEchidna giggles like the Pillsbury Dough Boy
[14:04] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: oh, is that the same package from yesterday? I built it locally
[14:05] <JontheEchidna> seems to work fine for my usecase of a wired DHCP connection
[14:05] <Riddell> yes it is
[14:05] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: any encryption on that?
[14:05] <JontheEchidna> I don't believe you can encrypt wired connections
[14:05] <Riddell> we had a wiki testing page somewhere for this sort of thing
[14:05] <Riddell> oh wired, didn't read right
[14:06] <JontheEchidna> yeah, it's a bit boring, but almost always works
[14:06] <JontheEchidna> btw, I've been seeing multiple langpack bugs for different languages in the vein of bug 406146
[14:07]  * dpm looks at it
[14:14] <dpm> ArneGoetje: I've commented on the bug, do you think that's a problem with langpack-o-matic?
[14:14] <dpm> ArneGoetje: ^
[14:17] <dpm> Does anyone know what the current situation with Arora's translations is? I'm not concerned about getting them imported into Launchpad, but rather about knowing whether the application is translatable
[14:18] <dpm> I was too quick in asking, I've just found it -> http://code.google.com/p/arora/wiki/Translating
[14:26] <Riddell> dpm: it's translatable but there's an issue where it's not clever at working out what translation to use so if you use de_AT it won't fall back to de_DE
[14:26] <Riddell> and I don't think it picks up the KDE locale, only the system one
[14:28] <dpm> Riddell: I'm looking at it now, it is not using the Catalan translation, either (system locale ca_ES.UTF-8)
[14:31] <dpm> so I'm guessing it might be the same problem. My locale is ca_ES and the source translation was created as ca.ts
[14:32] <Riddell> I'm surprised at how bad Qt is with translations really
[14:34] <JontheEchidna> would Quassel have the same issues? (thinking of Qt only apps)
[14:34] <JontheEchidna> I suppose I should go install langpacks and help test stuff
[14:37] <dpm> JontheEchidna: I do not know much about qt's translation technology other than people's comment's along the lines of "it's a pain". I've used Qt linguist to translate some apps, though. Quassel is partially translated on my system, but I don't think this is a problem qith qt, rather because of a non-finished translation (I don not know the quassel release schedule)
[14:39] <Riddell> quassel also seems to use Qt translations which are in /usr/share/kde4/apps/quassel/translations
[14:39] <Riddell> I don't see one for es though so I don't know how dpm gets it translated
[14:41] <dpm> I'm using Catalan (language code 'ca', 'ca_ES', 'ca_FR', 'ca_IT' or 'ca_AD' - we're everywhere!)
[14:42] <dpm> but the quassel_ca.ts translation is also missing, so th translations I see probably come from somewhere else
[14:44] <dpm> Only the menus are (partially) translated, so I guess that translations are from generic kde or qt menu names or actions
[14:46] <Riddell> right
[14:48] <JontheEchidna> so then translation support would also be a big plus for konversation
[14:50] <JontheEchidna> wow, an l10n bug that's actually an upstream bug: bug 370582
[14:51] <dpm> JontheEchidna: well, I'm guessing that being a KDE app (or is it extragear atm?) Konversation will have been translated into more languages and using gettext the translation process will be easier (there are more tools available and it can be imported into Launchpad), but in fact quassel is also translatable (only that it has less languages and uses qt, which is not as widely used as gettext and doesn't have the advantages mentioned before)
[14:52] <JontheEchidna> dpm: Right, it's in extragear and gets official translation support from KDE
[14:53] <JontheEchidna> yeah, I knew that Quassel was also translatable, but the current state seems a bit lacking
[14:53] <JontheEchidna> Qt translations in LP would be nice
[14:53] <dpm> bug 376686 might also have come from upstream, but I haven't found out yet
[14:55] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: my e-mail is broken today, could you e-mail kubuntu-devel asking for testing and pointing to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/PlasmaWidgetNetworkManager/0.0%2Bsvn1002781-0ubuntu1%7Eppa1
[14:55] <Riddell> right, let's work out what's the crack with debian-qt-kde.mk not generating templates
[14:55] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: sure
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> This search has a few good ones: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=kde-l10n
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> as would searching for kde-i18n, I would assume
[14:56] <yuriy> Riddell: OT clarification re: oxygen icons in proprietary software - if the application embeds the icon so the user can't replace it (as e.g. .NET likes to do) doesn't that violate the LGPL?
[14:57] <dpm> Riddell: just to confirm I've compared "your" and Rosetta's systemsettings.pot template and are completely different, so if the package is using debian-qt-kde.mk, that might indeed be the problem
[15:00] <Riddell> yuriy: my reading of the LGPL 3 section 4 is that is allowed
[15:01] <Riddell> see the definition of “Minimal Corresponding Source”
[15:03] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: sent, should be out to the list momentarily
[15:05] <yurchor> No, I'm here, but consulted with my documents :) If it is for me...
[15:05] <Riddell> yurchor: ?
[15:06] <Mamarok> Riddell: there's a user in #kubuntu qho want's to talk to a dev about "the ppor state of vpn in Kubuntu"
[15:06] <Mamarok> poor, my typo
[15:06] <yuriy> Riddell: but "in a form suitable for the user to recombine or relink the application with a modified version"
[15:07] <yurchor> Oh, sorry. I just asked in KDE list three weeks ago is KDE licensing for translations allows BSD license translations from Rosetta&
[15:11] <Riddell> yurchor: yes it does (although licencing of translations is always a bit murky)
[15:13] <Riddell> yuriy: well hmm, it's confusing my head now somewhat
[15:14] <Riddell> yuriy: how can you re-link an application anyway?
[15:15] <dpm> hi jtv :)
[15:15] <jtv> hi dpm :)
[15:15] <Riddell> hello jtv
[15:15] <dpm> jtv can help us if anyone has got questions on Rosetta
[15:16] <seele> hmm.. better translations in konversation is a pretty attractive feature over quassel
[15:17] <Riddell> I'm using konversation in japanese now
[15:17] <yurchor> hi jtv. Can you answer some questions about Ukrainian translation of KDE in Rosetta?
[15:17] <jtv> yurchor: we'll see.  :)
[15:17] <jtv> Go ahead?
[15:17] <ScottK> dpm: My apologies for not helping out with publicizing this effort.  I had intended to, but $WORK got overwhelming.  Thanks for doing it.
[15:18] <dpm> ScottK, no worries, thanks for letting me know
[15:19] <dpm> I realise people are busy, that's why I didn't insist
[15:19] <dpm> well, I poked Riddell a bit, though :)
[15:19] <yurchor> jtv: As I can see from my side Ukrainian is 100%. Why Karmic translation lacks so many translations?
[15:20] <jtv> yurchor: what is your side exactly?
[15:20] <Riddell> yurchor: seems like we have a problem where new translations havn't been generated for karmic
[15:20] <Riddell> so a lot of strings will be missing
[15:21] <ScottK> dpm: Sput and EgS are Quassel upstream and are generally here, so you can ask them Quasell translation questions directly.
[15:21] <yurchor> jtv: I am Ukrainian upstream translator.
[15:22] <ScottK> yurchor: Welcome to  #kubuntu-devel.  I'm glad you're here to help us try to fix this.
[15:22] <yurchor> Riddell: As I see that is old (non 4.3) translation for now, right?
[15:22] <Riddell> yurchor: yeah anything new in 4.3 will be missing
[15:23] <jtv> yurchor: that's _probably_ not related to Rosetta (though of course it may turn out to be), but one of how packages are handled.
[15:23] <jtv> s/one/a question/
[15:24] <dpm> yurchor: as Riddell and jtv mention, this is probably related to a packaging problem we've just detected today -> quite a few POT templates might have not been updated. That's one of the reasons we're here today, to detect and fix those issues
[15:25] <dpm> and yes, those particular ones are for Karmic - KDE 4.3
[15:25] <ScottK> NCommander: Now what's the plan for qt4-x11 on armel?
[15:25] <dpm> (although I don't know whether this affects older versions as well)
[15:27] <Riddell> this problem didn't affect jaunty
[15:27] <yurchor> jtv: Well, about Rosetta. I can see every for KDE files every morning (numbers change).
[15:27] <yurchor> jtv:  Watch people translate some things. Click on nicks but only see 1-3 messages translated. Is this intended?
[15:28] <jtv> yurchor: ah!
[15:28] <jtv> yurchor: there are several things that can cause that:
[15:29] <jtv> 1. Replication lag.  At this scale, we have to use multiple database servers.  One is the master, the others are slaves.
[15:29] <jtv> When you request a page, normally you talk to a slave which is a read-only copy of the master.
[15:29] <jtv> When you make changes, you are temporarily switched to the master.
[15:30] <jtv> Now if _somebody else_ translates something, they will see the change immediately, but you may be talking to a slave that sees a slightly older copy of the database.
[15:30] <jtv> Shouldn't be more than a few seconds or minutes though, barring exceptional cases.
[15:30] <jtv> 2. Message sharing and statistics.
[15:31] <jtv> Jaunty and Karmic share their translations.  So if someone translates a string in Jaunty, most of the statistics for Jaunty are updated immediately—but not the Karmic ones.  We have a bug open for this; we must be careful not to start spending all our time updating stats.  :)
[15:31] <yurchor> Riddell: Can I ask about KOffice in Jaunty? What is the number of last version?
[15:32] <jtv> 3. Some statistics at the higher aggregation levels are not computed instantly, for the same reason.
[15:32] <jtv> So it's possible that the statistics will lag by a day.
[15:33] <yurchor> jtv: Thanks. That's what I want to know.
[15:34]  * jtv shuts up :)
[15:34] <Riddell> yurchor: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/koffice and https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/koffice2
[15:34] <NCommander> ScottK, its the *$#@! lzma issue again
[15:34] <NCommander> ScottK, we're replacing the build hardware soon, which should help resolve it
[15:35]  * NCommander knocks on wood
[15:35] <ScottK> Riddell: ^^^ I guess my vote is drop lzma on armel for now.
[15:35] <ScottK> apachelogger: ^^
[15:35] <yurchor> jtv: Oh, sorry. But I have so many questions...
[15:36] <ScottK> NCommander: If we upload qt4-x11 todayish, then it ought to get built before we push 4.3.0.
[15:36] <Riddell> ScottK: that's what I'd suggest too
[15:36] <dpm> yurchor: regarding the question on translations licensing, you can find more information here -> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/LicensingFAQ (I apologise for not having answered that one when you asked in the kde-i18n-doc list)
[15:37] <jtv> yurchor: no worries, as long as it fits this meeting, I'll try to answer.  If it doesn't, we can take it to another channel.
[15:37] <yurchor> Riddell: Thus, all those translation in Jaunty (Kspread et al) are from KOffice 1?
[15:38] <NCommander> ScottK, there's no promise its not going to FTBSF again
[15:38] <NCommander> I rather fix the underlying cause, but that's my 2c
[15:38] <ScottK> NCommander: Well I'd settle for getting to build at least once in the meantime.
[15:39] <yurchor> dpm: Yes. That was my first stop. But is it legaly make BSD->GPL->BSD transition?
[15:39] <NCommander> ScottK, well, the build of the timeout resolved the actual compilation issue, so dropping lzma compression in theory should work
[15:39] <bittin> Hello you need any more help with the Love?
[15:40] <ScottK> Riddell: Do you know the knobs to turn to make lzma go away for armel?
[15:40]  * ScottK hasn't looked into it.
[15:40] <bittin> i can translate enlgish to swedish if needed
[15:41] <Riddell> ScottK: it's just a variable in the debian/rules I think, it just needs the weird syntax for  if (arch!=arm) working out
[15:42] <Riddell> bittin: what are you running as a distro?
[15:43] <bittin> Riddell: Debian at the moment
[15:43] <bittin> but my grand parents is using Kubuntu
[15:43] <dpm> yurchor: I'm not sure about this one, I'm not an expert in licensing. If the question is not answered in the link I sent you, may I ask you to come to the #launchpad channel and ask there?
[15:44] <JontheEchidna> The new kcm-gtk config module could use some love, if anyone's up to translating: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/kcm-gtk/
[15:44] <JontheEchidna> (I'm upstream, so just run any l10n bugs by me)
[15:45] <Riddell> yurchor: anything added through rosetta is BSD, but KDE translations generally follow the licence of the apps they come from which is usually GPL so the combined result will be GPL
[15:45] <bittin> iam up for it should just remember my launchpad password
[15:45] <dpm> JontheEchidna: cool, expect some Catalan translations flowing in soon. I'll also let Ubuntu translators know about this.
[15:47] <bittin> are there any Launchpad admins here?
[15:47] <Riddell> jtv: the list of priority translation domains to appear the the top of the translation list (https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+lang/sco) is still woefully out of date, how do we fix that?
[15:47] <bittin> as i dont remember what email iam registred with
[15:47] <yurchor> jtv: One more question: can Rosetta administration somehow make the number of administrators in some teams (at least Ukrainian) reasonable? Because now I think that the rule: "I am user, so I am administrator" is somehow redundant...
[15:47] <JontheEchidna> dpm: great, it's accessible via system settings, in the appearance section
[15:47] <Riddell> bittin: maybe you can search for yourself on launchpad.net/people ?
[15:47] <jtv> Riddell: any member of the utc team can edit those templates to change the priorities.
[15:47] <bittin> Riddell: yes thx =)
[15:48] <Riddell> jtv: utc?
[15:48] <bittin> Email:   Log in for email information.
[15:48] <bittin> :(
[15:48] <Riddell> bittin: what's the username?
[15:48] <bittin> bittin
[15:48] <dpm> Riddell: we (the Ubuntu people) are planning to do that (reorganising the priority of templates), but we haven't started yet UTC = ubuntu-translations-coordinators team
[15:48] <jtv> yurchor: that's a typical "growing pain" in the life of a translation team...  I hope we're getting away from people joining the teams just because they (want to) translate.  But this is ultimately a matter of organization in the Ubuntu translation community.  I don't see a technical fix.
[15:48] <jtv> Riddell: Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
[15:49] <jtv> Riddell: the owners of the Ubuntu translation group.
[15:49] <Riddell> bittin: "EMail: No public address provided" but I sent you a test e-mail through the launchpad contact page
[15:50] <bittin> ok
[15:50] <Riddell> dpm: can we start on that today?  it's pretty important, rosetta is currently telling people to translate non-existant KDE 3 bits
[15:51] <bittin> i think its on a mail account i dont use anymore
[15:51] <bittin> that are gone tough :(
[15:51] <bittin> can i do a new launchpad account and some moves over my old stuff
[15:51] <bittin> and deletes it
[15:52] <Riddell> bittin: I think that's possible, you'd need to ask on #launchpad
[15:52] <bittin> ok
[15:52] <bittin> will do that
[15:52] <JontheEchidna> dpm: if you could get the word out, https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/plasma-widget-quickaccess/+pots/plasma-applet-quickaccess is also a third-party applet with no official KDE support, so getting good Ubuntu translations would be super
[15:52] <yurchor> JontheEchidna: Some time ago I've send David Sansome Ukrainian translation for this gtk-qt kcm. Can it be imported from SVN?
[15:52] <ryanakca> bittin: Yes, https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/826/+login
[15:53] <JontheEchidna> yurchor: aah, good point. I have changed some of the strings from what they were in gtk-qt, but a lot of them should be unchanged
[15:54] <JontheEchidna> yurchor: I don't know how to do that, though, so any help would be great
[15:54] <JontheEchidna> I suppose I should start shipping the template with the source now
[15:55] <dpm_> Riddell: we're talking of two different things here 1) reorganising the priority of templates (it will take some time, but we can change the priority of some of them straight away, if necessary) 2) Disabling obsolete KDE templates - I'd like to do this straight away whenever I see one, that's why the wiki page with the templates is for. Which particular KDE 3 apps have you see which might need disabling in Rosetta?
[15:56] <Riddell> dpm_: kdesktop and kicker are the obvious ones
[15:56] <bittin> did a new launchpad account as bittin1
[15:56] <bittin> and merged it
[15:56] <JontheEchidna> yurchor: would the best solution to be to load up the template in lokalize or something and then copy/paste translations?
[15:57] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: the .pot template gets magically generated during build
[15:57] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: ah, right. Messages.sh
[15:57] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: you should be able to do some clever merge with the old gtk-qt-engine translation files to get the strings that are still valid though
[15:57] <Riddell> maybe dpm_ knows how
[15:58] <bittin> iam translating atm =)
[15:59] <yurchor> JontheEchidna: they are there: http://gtk-qt-engine.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/gtk-qt-engine/po/  For merging I prefer msmerge-based scripts
[16:00]  * Riddell considers deleting /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/kde4.mk and wonders how to find all the packages using it
[16:01] <JontheEchidna> yurchor: thanks
[16:03] <bittin> something more i can translate to swedish?
[16:03] <Riddell> bittin: did you do plasma-applet-quickaccess?  JontheEchidna was asking for that too
[16:03] <bittin> nope
[16:04] <bittin> i missed that link
[16:04] <JontheEchidna> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/plasma-widget-quickaccess/+pots/plasma-applet-quickaccess/sv/+translate
[16:04] <bittin> will do it now
[16:04] <dpm_> Riddell: ok, kicker and kdesktop disabled from Jaunty translations (they had already been disabled from karmic). They should no longer appear as translatable nor be exported in language packs.
[16:04] <dpm_> The reason they were still there is because we've started working on the list of templates to disable/rename/move for Karmic -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE/KdeKarmicModules#TODO%20items
[16:04] <dpm_> There is the same list for Jaunty https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE/KdeJauntyModules, but as I say we started with Karmic first
[16:04] <dpm_> That's what we've been talking for the last weeks in kubuntu-devel@
[16:04] <yurchor> JontheEchidna: I can translate the rest of the strings (not that much anyway), but I don't like Rosetta. Can you announce the release in kde-i18n-doc?
[16:05] <JontheEchidna> yurchor: sure, I'll msmerge the po's, do another point release, then announce
[16:05] <JontheEchidna> perhaps this tool should go upstream eventually
[16:05] <JontheEchidna> maybe extragear at least
[16:06] <dpm_> JontheEchidna: if you then make the announcement, send it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>as well once strings are frozen
[16:07] <dpm_> but as I said, I can also tell translators now
[16:07] <JontheEchidna> I think I could freeze strings now, now that I have that QtCurve notification in
[16:07] <yurchor> JontheEchidna: Great, it will be nice to see it in SVN (or git) ;)
[16:07] <bittin> done some more on plasma-widget-quickaccess now
[16:08] <bittin> can you spam me with things that needs swedish in Kubuntu
[16:08] <JontheEchidna> yurchor: a shame that gtk-qt-engine isn't maintained anymore :( But at least the config module lives on
[16:09] <JontheEchidna> nice @ arora using the kde file dialog
[16:09] <yurchor> One more question: this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE/KdeKarmicModules announces some pots as "Not present upstream". I think there are some mistakes in this definition, right?
[16:10] <yurchor> I mean that all those are playground applications which definitely have an upstream translations.
[16:11] <dpm_> yurchor: these are the templates we need to fix. They are stale templates probably left from the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. What that means is that those templates are in Launchpad, but the upstream kde4 tree does no longer have them, so we have to remove them from Launchpad
[16:12] <yurchor> dpm_: Upstream has them (at least in translation sense). That is a mistake.
[16:14] <dpm_> yurchor: what do you think of a new note along the lines of "Not present in upstream's SVN for KDE4.3"? any other suggestions welcome
[16:17] <yurchor> dpm_: Karmic has kdelibs4 (KDE3). That implies you want to support KDE 3. So removing or ignoring upstream translation will be unreasonable. On the other hand, I can run e.g. kpovmodeller on Mandriva KDE 4. This list have to be revised to not mislead the translators.
[16:18] <ScottK> Riddell: Any objection to usb-creator-kde on the CD?
[16:19] <yurchor> dpm_: In KDE 4.3 you cannot find many extragear or playground applications, but the can be cmopiled and used with translations from upstream.
[16:20] <Riddell> ScottK: ooh is it working?
[16:21] <ScottK> Riddell: I haven't tried it myself, but I assume so.
[16:21] <ScottK> rgreening: It's working, right?
[16:21] <rgreening> ScottK: yep
[16:22] <rgreening> of course, I programmed it :)
[16:22] <Riddell> it's not going to be on the ubuntu desktop CD for space reasons so we might need to check docs or whatever are in order
[16:22]  * rgreening ducks
[16:22] <rgreening> it's small
[16:22] <Riddell> right, we want it on
[16:23] <rgreening> It needs testing. HAL has some bugs. Translations should b e checked to see if they work or if the code needs tweaking to use the po's from the gtk ver
[16:23] <rgreening> but it works...
[16:24] <rgreening> we've already had some fixes come it and added
[16:26] <ScottK> Riddell: evand is going to put it and the windows one on the netbook image outside the squashfs, so we don't need to seed it directly for netbook.
[16:27] <rgreening> yay :P
[16:29] <dpm_> yurchor: the packages in that list are no longer in our main repository, which means that they will not be translatable in Launchpad. Disabling their translations in Launchpad will simply mean that they will be shipped with 1:1 upstream translations, the only difference will be that Ubuntu translators will not be able to translate them through Launchpad. Only those packages present in 'main' and 'restricted' are offered for translation in Launchpad f
[16:29] <dpm_> or K/Ubuntu
[16:30] <Riddell> who knows Make/bash?  why doesn't this work?  http://people.canonical.com/~jriddell/tmp/makefile
[16:30] <dpm_> we're not removing upstream translations when disabling templates from Launchpad
[16:32] <yurchor> dpm_: not removing but, I think, not updating, right?
[16:33] <dpm_> yurchor: what do you mean, not updating?
[16:34] <bittin> i have translated a little bunch now
[16:34] <bittin> for karmic
[16:35] <ScottK> bittin: Thank you.
[16:35] <ScottK> What's the package name for our network widget thing now?
[16:36] <Riddell> ScottK: plasma-widget-networkmanagement and the binary is knetworkmanager (if installing from ~jr PPA)
[16:37] <yurchor> dpm_: For example, let xxx package was in KDE 3, but not completely translated. Now it's in KDE 4 playground (or maybe extragear) fully translated, but not in Rosetta. That's what I mean.
[16:37] <ScottK> Riddell: Is it in Universe on purpose?
[16:37] <bittin> now iam pretty much done with what i founded =)
[16:38] <ScottK> plasma-widget-networkmanagement | 0.1~svn980510-0ubuntu1 | karmic/universe | source, amd64, i386
[16:39] <Riddell> ScottK: no, shouldn't be
[16:39] <ScottK> Riddell: OK.  'tis.
[16:41] <yurchor> dpm_: As an example, kaudiocreator.
[16:41] <dpm_> yurchor: oh, I understand what you mean now. Well, it depends: if the KDE4 package is in playground and in our 'main' repository, it will be in Rosetta. The important thing is that it is in main, it doesn't matter where the upstream location is
[16:42] <ScottK> NCommander: Would you please rescore r-base.  Getting it built sooner rather than later will avoid some other failures.
[16:43] <dpm_> yurchor: in the particular case of kaudiocreator, I put it in the list of packages to investigate, rather than to disable (I'm just going through that list) -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE/KdeKarmicModules#TODO%20items
[16:46] <NCommander> ScottK, done
[16:46] <ScottK> NCommander: Thanks.
[16:48] <yurchor> dpm_: well, how about _qt packages (there's also kcachgrind_qt in kdesdk)? They are all in Mandriva packages and default KDE packages.
[16:48] <yurchor> dpm_: kcachegrind_qt, sorry
[16:52] <dpm> yurchor: what's the exact problem with the _qt packages? (sorry, I do not follow KDE development very closely, that's why I ask)
[16:53] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: about the update-kde-tars script for langpack-o-matic... where does the kde-zhhk.tar come from?
[16:54] <yurchor> dpm: It is not a problem. All this packages comes from the programs which can be compiled without KDE. Maybe it is worth to keep the separated?
[16:55] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: from kde-l10n-zhhk, I wasn't sure where put it
[16:55] <Riddell> and I presume we don't have language packs for that, so I just left it there to remind us incase one day we did
[16:55] <yurchor> dpm: "them separated", sorry
[16:56] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: ok... zhhk should go into zh-hant
[16:56] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: let me do that then
[16:56] <Riddell> yurchor: we don't compile kcachegrind-qt so it's not really an issue for us
[16:57] <JontheEchidna> kcm-gtk all msgmerge'd, testbuilding
[16:58] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: did you still update kde-zh.tar ?
[16:58] <dpm> yurchor: maybe you can help me with a question I've got -> why are the desktop_<package>.po files in the stable branch but not in the tagged branches? I.e. I can see the desktop file at http://websvn.kde.org/branches/stable/l10n-kde4/ca/messages/kdeadmin/, but not at http://websvn.kde.org/tags/KDE/4.2.98/kde-l10n/ca/messages/kdeadmin/
[16:58] <yurchor> Riddell: Kcachegrind is not in Ubuntu repos, right?
[16:59] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: was about to ask what's in language-pack-kde-zh now?
[17:00] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: it seems to just have overlapping files with zh-hans and zh-hant
[17:00] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: for karmic, this will be a dummy package (not uploaded yet), which depends on the zh-hans and zh-hant packages
[17:00] <yurchor> dpm: all desktop_ files are just for merging by scripty (KDE script) with .desktop files. As such .mo from them are useless.
[17:00] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: ok so I can just rm kde-zh.tar
[17:01] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: kde-zh.tar is used for older releases up to Jaunty
[17:01] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: when we rebuild base packages, we will need that one.
[17:01] <Riddell> hmm, right
[17:01] <yurchor> dpm: in tag they all are merged.
[17:03] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: zhhk should therefor also go into kde-zh.tar. langpack-o-matic is smart enough to either pick kde-zh.tar or kde-zh-hans.tar/kde-zh-hant.tar, depending on which release you are building for.
[17:03] <dpm> yurchor: they are merged with which template? In which PO file are the .desktop translations, then?
[17:05] <Riddelll> jtv, dpm: I've uploaded a fixed pkg-kde-tools so KDE packages uploaded now will have .pots generated again, shall I rebuild all the KDE packages in main and expect rosetta to pick up all the new strings ok?
[17:06] <ScottK> Riddelll: We're going to upload 4.3.0 in just a few days, can't all the packages wait for that?
[17:06] <jtv> Riddelll: aiui when Soyuz rebuilds the packages, it also feeds the tarballs with the translation files into Rosetta.  And when that happens, yes, the new strings are picked up.
[17:07] <dpm> Riddelll: I would expect so. The new packages will build updated templates and they should be auto-approved to go into Rosetta once uploaded
[17:07]  * jtv is a complete n00b on what happens in Soyuz otherwise
[17:08] <Riddelll> ScottK: that's a good week away, I'd rather get this out the way
[17:09] <ScottK> Riddelll: OK.
[17:10] <yurchor> dpm: with no tepmlate. They merged with all .desktop lines like Comment [uk]:"la-la-la" GenericNme [uk]: "blah-blah". If I yesterday translate something in desktop_blah-blah.po, tomorrow scripty add corresponding line to blah-blah.desktop (it is a generak picture). No PO at all
[17:13] <yurchor> dpm: The next day scripty extracts new strings from .desktop files by developers, moves them into POT and merge with my PO, that I have to translate.
[17:16] <dpm> yurchor: so when creating a tagged version the desktop_*.po files are removed from the /tags tree and their translations are put back in the .desktop files in the code?
[17:18] <yurchor> dpm: Yes you're absolutely right. They are already there (scripty cares about this). So desktop_blah_blah.po files are useless without scripty.
[17:19] <Riddell> this console-not-accepting-input bug is super annoying
[17:20] <dpm> yurchor: thanks for the info
[17:22]  * jtv is about to leave
[17:22] <jtv> any other LP Translations questions?
[17:24] <dpm> jtv: I haven't got any other burning questions for now. Thanks a lot for having been here!
[17:24] <jtv> dpm: no worries at all, bona nit!
[17:25] <dpm> bona nit :)
[17:26] <yurchor> All of the questions about blocking PO from unintended editing must be reviewed by the corresponding translation team only, right? Is there any way to ask translation teams not to translate upstream translated things?
[17:30] <dpm> yurchor: this varies from team to team. There are teams which either have members who are part of upstream already or which explicitly do not touch upstream strings. There is currently no technical way of blocking upstream strings at the moment. Instead, it's more a social thing. You can always contact particular teams through this -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/Teams or through this -> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+groups/
[17:30] <dpm> ubuntu-translators (in case they've not yet put their contact information in the wiki page)
[17:31] <JontheEchidna> could I get a Main sponsor for bug 406471?
[17:31] <JontheEchidna> oh noes, riddell isn't hee
[17:31] <JontheEchidna> *here
[17:32] <dpm> yurchor: I've also started this page to raise awareness on the existence of upstream KDE here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE, with a short overview on how the translation process works there
[17:35] <yurchor> dpm: That's good, thank you, but can you ask Ukrainian team leaders to read this pages and subscribe to your mailing list? Reading this list I see that not more than 10 team leaders answering your questions or discuss things. I tell some Ukrainian team members about it but they seem to think that anarchy is the best ruleset...
[17:37] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: pushed to lp:~jr/langpack-o-matic/kde-tars
[17:37] <apachelogger> ScottK: aye aye
[17:38] <ScottK> apachelogger: Would you please fix that up.  I don't care to learn about lzma details today.
[17:38] <ScottK> IIRC there was also mail to kubuntu-devel about a patch problem.
[17:38] <apachelogger> aint saw no mail
[17:39] <ScottK> Maybe JontheEchidna has some Qt4 patches he's cherrypicked for us too maybe.
[17:39] <Riddell> arora had one they wanted
[17:39] <Riddell> http://code.google.com/p/arora/issues/detail?id=530
[17:40] <ScottK> apachelogger: You sent it to the list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-July/003055.html
[17:40] <apachelogger> ah, that one :D
[17:40] <apachelogger> I thought it was already fixed :P
[17:41] <apachelogger> clearly kubuntu is moving slower without me ;-)
[17:41] <dpm> yurchor: I'll contact them and put you on CC, does that sound good? About joining the ubuntu-translators list, we've been talking of making it a requirement for being a team coordinator. We've been discussing some of this here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/PoliciesBrainstorming , but you have to realise that it will take time, since until now there wasn't a general coordination of the K/Ubuntu translations community
[17:41] <Riddell> that patch is needed, else you need to patch a load of phonon stuff
[17:42] <apachelogger> Riddell: read the mail :P
[17:42] <dpm> yurchor: and is there anything you'd like me to add to the upstream page I was showing you?
[17:42] <apachelogger> the patch duplicates what is already there
[17:42] <apachelogger> also see comment in the patch
[17:43] <Riddell> hmm
[17:43] <apachelogger> ScottK, NCommander: what exactly will dpkg --print-architecture spit out on armel?
[17:43] <apachelogger> armel?
[17:43] <NCommander> apachelogger, yeah
[17:43] <NCommander> apachelogger, if it doesn't, thats a bug
[17:44] <apachelogger> well, ain't got no armel to test :P
[17:44] <ScottK> NCommander: You see my powerpc fun?
[17:44] <NCommander> ScottK, which powerpc fun?
[17:45] <ScottK> NCommander: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dc-qt/0.2.0.alpha-4ubuntu2/+build/1139325/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-powerpc.dc-qt_0.2.0.alpha-4ubuntu2_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
[17:45] <Riddell> apachelogger: ifeq ($(DEB_HOST_ARCH),armel) ?
[17:46] <apachelogger> Riddell: isn't it DEB_ARCH?
[17:46] <apachelogger> also, ifneq
[17:46] <NCommander> The installation of a 2.6 kernel _could_ ask you to install a new libc
[17:46] <NCommander> first, this is NOT a bug, and should *NOT* be reported. In that case,
[17:46] <NCommander> please add lenny sources to your /etc/apt/sources.list and run:
[17:46] <NCommander> O___o;
[17:46] <NCommander> wow
[17:46] <NCommander> now that IS a bug :-/
[17:46] <apachelogger> there is also deb_build_arch
[17:46] <apachelogger> Riddell: ^
[17:46] <apachelogger> that would be best I suppose?
[17:46] <Riddell> apachelogger: dunno I just copy  and paste from qt3 :)
[17:46] <ScottK> NCommander: OK.  Over to you then.
[17:47] <JontheEchidna> yurchor, dpm: did you have an email like the following in mind? http://paste.ubuntu.com/236040/ It feels awkward just going off and asking for translations like that
[17:47] <NCommander> ScottK, lovely
[17:47] <NCommander> absolutely ****ing lovely
[17:47] <apachelogger> Riddell: hehe, well lets use host then :D
[17:47]  * apachelogger tests
[17:47] <NCommander> Just because the powerpc buildds can't running hardy
[17:47] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: looks good to me
[17:48] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: are you able to look into why the tars don't get used?
[17:48] <Riddell> qt3 is only 17MB, those were the easy days
[17:48] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: currently the extra.tar file goes into language-pack-xx-base, not into language-pack-kde-xx-base
[17:49] <yurchor> dpm: Yes, it will be nice. But it will be better to have person that coordinates Kubuntu-translation efforts. I make an announcement in the main Ukrainian linux-translation site (linux.org.ua). But there noone wants to coordinate. :(
[17:49] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: what is supposed to happen with the tars?
[17:49] <yurchor> dpm: hmm, and maybe kde-i18n-doc subscription is not of high importance. Believe me, it contains no news for Kubuntu translators.
[17:49] <ScottK> NCommander: For motivation - fixing that chroot problem will help boost1.35 die.
[17:50] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: well they should be included somehow, in language-pack-xx-base is fine but e.g. current language-pack-fr-base doesn't include it
[17:50] <dpm> yurchor: no, no, I meant the<EMAIL_ADDRESS>not the kde-i18n-doc one
[17:50] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: the onmes, I just generated in langpack-o-matic (next upload), do contain them.
[17:50] <NCommander> ScottK, its not something I can wave a magic wand and fix
[17:50] <NCommander> ScottK, take a look at the error
[17:50] <NCommander> the kernel used by dapper has gotten too old to host a karmic chroot
[17:50] <Riddell> only 40 KDE source packages in main
[17:51] <ScottK> NCommander: OK.  So either something gets fixed or we drop the port.
[17:51] <yurchor> dpm: Sorry, I've told about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream/KDE
[17:51] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: mind sponsoring bug 406471?
[17:51] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: oh?  do we know what got fixed?
[17:51] <dpm> yurchor: oh, I see :)
[17:52] <NCommander> ScottK, basically what happened is glibc was broken on powerpc due to the texlive fun
[17:52] <NCommander> THat managed to build
[17:52] <NCommander> and now rehose the chroots \o/
[17:52] <ScottK> I have multiple instances of the failure.  quantlib-swig too.
[17:53] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: oh, sorry... you are right... the extra.tar tarball misses the KDE stuff... orz
[17:55] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: which could be down to "raise Exception, 'Not yet implemented: tarball merging (locale+extra.tar)'"  although I don't think that code has changed, maybe thing else has?
[17:56] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: I didn't touch anything regarding the extra.tar handling in langpack-o-matic...
[17:56] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: no but something must have changed to break it
[17:56] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: so, the kde tars should be merged into the extra.tars, right?
[17:57] <apachelogger> ScottK, Riddell, NCommander: up it goes
[17:57] <ScottK> \o/
[17:57] <dpm> JontheEchidna: the e-mail looks good to me. Don't worry about asking for translations - you have to have in mind that translators love doing them (well, at least seeing the app being translated as a result) and appreciate announcements on string freezes. The only potential issue I see is that having two places for accepting translations (directly through patches or through Rosetta) might put you in a position to have to mediate between translators if
[17:57] <dpm> you get two different translations for a given language (i.e. from two -or more- sets of people). In my experience it is best to have just one or at least a recommended way of accepting translations rather than being too flexible. But that's theory, so I'd say go along with the announcement and we'll see how it goes.
[17:59] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: yes
[18:00] <apachelogger> oh dear loard in heaven qmake is making me shiver
[18:00] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: ok, I will see if I can get it to work.
[18:01] <apachelogger> oh, that is also good ... software which is _apprently_ gpl2 but doesn't contain any license/coyright header whatsoever, nor a copy, nor any other kind of indication \o/
[18:01] <apachelogger> neversfelde: ping
[18:01] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: but not now... I need to sleep, It's 01:00 here.
[18:02] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: sleep well
[18:02] <apachelogger> ArneGoetje: nini
[18:03] <dpm> ArneGoetje: sleep well, thanks a lot for your help!
[18:03] <apachelogger> ScottK: do we have some packaging minion at hand?
[18:03] <ArneGoetje> dpm: np, that's my job. ;)
[18:04] <ArneGoetje> dpm: (helping, not sleeping) he he
[18:04] <dpm> ;)
[18:04] <ScottK> apachelogger: Not that I know of.
[18:04]  * ScottK thinks they pheared the translations work and fled.
[18:05]  * Riddell spots stable/4.3.0/src/
[18:07] <ArneGoetje> dpm: I spotted some KDE templates in the Needs Review import queue in Rosetta. Can you take a look at them and figure out what to do with them? I think they may have moved source packages or changed names...
[18:08] <dpm> I'll do
[18:08] <ArneGoetje> dpm: thanks :)
[18:08] <dpm> np
[18:16]  * dpm needs to have a break bbl
[18:18] <ScottK> Note to everyone: koffice2 packaging is in bzr.  Please use it.
[18:21] <Riddell> ScottK: where?
[18:21] <ScottK> Riddell: bzr branch lp:~kubuntu-members/koffice/ubuntu
[18:54] <Riddell> world uploaded to use new pkg-kde-tools
[19:02] <ScottK> Riddell: I'm about to do a new ktorrent upload (assuming it builds).  Is include /usr/share/pkg-kde-tools/makefiles/1/cdbs/kde.mk
[19:02] <ScottK> ... still what I want?
[19:03] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: yes, along with debhelper.mk from cdbs
[19:04] <Riddell> ScottK: yep
[19:04] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Right.  Got that.
[19:04] <ScottK> Thanks.
[19:04] <Riddell> hmm, I wonder if I just forgot the debhelper.mk in the ones I just uploaded
[19:06] <apachelogger> lol
[19:07] <Riddell> why yes, I did
[19:07] <Riddell> !ninjas
[19:08] <apachelogger> that is so out of date
[19:08] <apachelogger> kubotu: ninjas
[19:08] <kubotu> {apachelogger OR hsitter}, Arby, devfil, JontheEchidna, nhandler, Riddell, ScottK, stdin, nixternal, a|wen and vorian ... to the Batcave!
[19:08] <apachelogger> also out of date
[19:08] <apachelogger> we are like suse :P
[19:08] <nixternal> what?
[19:09] <JontheEchidna> heh
[19:09] <nixternal> I can't find the damn batcave :p
[19:09] <apachelogger> all borked
[19:09] <apachelogger> I shall revise the whole process
[19:09] <apachelogger> with more unicorns, more ninja apes from novell and a MS contributors agreement \o/
[19:09]  * apachelogger leaves for coffee
[19:09] <JontheEchidna> because you are the goddamn batpachelogger
[19:29] <ralf_j> Hi everyone! I read today is a good day to report translation problems in Kubuntu?
[19:29] <dpm> ralf_j: sure!
[19:31] <nixternal> re-setting up kontact/kmail...let us see how this goes
[19:33] <ralf_j> dpm: So, I just post them here? What information do you need? or do you test specific applications and/or parts of them?
[19:34] <ralf_j> argh, I have to leave for 10-20 minutes... see you later
[19:36] <dpm> ralf_j: well, it depends on the problem you have. Just try to describe it
[19:52] <ScottK> Riddell: Another plus for arora for your list is gmail doesn't whine about it not being a fully supported browser.
[19:54] <nixternal> if you use the webkit plugin for konqueror it doesn't whine either :p
[19:54] <Riddell> ScottK: yes that's a big plus
[19:55] <seele> why is there such a rush to make aurora the default browser? what happens if konqueror gets fixed in 4.3? do we switch default browsers *again*?
[19:55] <nixternal> seele: you mean 4.4?
[19:55] <seele> nixternal: yer, yes.. 4.4
[19:55] <Riddell> because I want to use gmail and slashdot now.  konqueror + webkit is probably the long term way but that's a year off
[19:55] <ScottK> seele: Personally I'd rather not switch, but I can see benifits.
[19:56] <seele> and why aren't we using firefox? becuase we want to get rid of gtk?
[19:56] <ScottK> Yes and not so great integration with our chosed DE.
[19:56] <ScottK> chosed/chosen
[19:57] <ralf_j> dpm: I am using Kubuntu 9.04, German version, and when I open system settings, the taskbar and the window title say "System settings" instead of "Systemeinstellungen" (it uses the correct string in the menu)
[19:58] <Riddell> ralf_j: does that happen for other apps?
[19:58] <ralf_j> in case that is important, I added the custom repo http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/ppa/ubuntu to get KDE 4.2.4
[19:59] <seele> ScottK: what's the latest arora? 0.8.0?
[19:59] <ralf_j> Riddell: actually I don't know of any other app whose title is translated
[19:59] <ScottK> seele: Yes.
[19:59] <ralf_j> most of them have their name in the taskbar, like Gwenview, Dolphin, Kopete
[19:59] <ScottK> seele: It's in Jaunty backports.
[19:59] <seele> yeah, i have it installed
[20:00] <seele> there's weird spacing in the menus and the Help menu doesnt have the KDE items
[20:00] <Riddell> if that's the worst of problems we're doing ok :)
[20:00] <seele> hmm.. weird spacing between the location bar and extra lines in the tabs
[20:01] <seele> yes, let's ship something that looks unfinished :P
[20:01] <jjesse> seele: don't we do that already?
[20:01] <seele> is the flash player problem fixed in .8 or svn?
[20:01] <Riddell> svn (git)
[20:02] <ralf_j> Riddell: Things indeed got much better since I switched to KDE4 - in the beginning, it was just horrible
[20:02] <ralf_j> Riddell: The most annoying currently is amarok where "Tracks" is translated with "<Stücke" - someone obviously accidently added a "<" there
[20:03] <ralf_j> that might be caused by me using latest amarok SVN, but I think I had it in the pakaged one, too
[20:03] <ralf_j> and besides I hardly notice English strings because while german is my mother tongue, I can read English quite well :D but systems ettings has some more wrong strings, I can try to list a few of them
[20:05] <ScottK> seele: The oddest think I find is clicking on the left side to close a tab and in the right to open one.
[20:05] <ScottK> Both Firefox and Konqueror have closing on the right.
[20:09] <dpm> ralf_j: I can reproduce it on Karmic as well (System Settings is untranslated)
[20:12] <ralf_j> dpm: aother system settings issue is the module "Add and remove software" which title is untranslated here
[20:13] <ralf_j> And kdesudo just asked me for a password (when opening the KDM config module), with the text saying that some ap and which needed admin priviledges was in English as well
[20:27] <ralf_j> I'm heading off, have a good night everyone!
[20:33] <seele> ScottK: i think it is a configurable option in both firefox and konq
[20:33] <ScottK> seele: If it's present or not, yes, but not which side it's on.
[20:33] <seele> oh wait, the button location
[20:33] <ScottK> Yes.
[20:33] <seele> i thought you meant right as in allll the way on the right side of the screen. not the right side of the tab
[20:33] <seele> i wonder if the arora developer is a mac user ;)
[20:33] <ScottK> Dunno.
[20:34] <ScottK> I did mean all the way on the right (as that's where the new tab thing is).
[20:34] <ScottK> Even though FF has it on the tab and that's the Konq default, I still want to go to the right to close stuff.
[20:34] <ScottK> stuff/tabs
[20:36] <apachelogger> ScottK: bug 377220
[20:36] <apachelogger> should I bounce back?
[20:36] <apachelogger> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg-alternatives.html
[20:36] <apachelogger> When several packages all provide different versions of the same program or file it is useful to have the system select a default, but to allow the system administrator to change it and have their decisions respected.
[20:37] <apachelogger> one ought to be able to have kubuntu and ubuntu installed but have ubuntu the default in which case one would not want the divert
[20:37] <apachelogger> so one would expect to be able to alternate the image to fit the main desktop, i.e. ubuntu
[20:40] <ScottK> OK.  update-alternatives is not particularly user friendly.  Do we give users a knob to turn to pick?
[20:40] <dpm> I've checked on the i18n issue ralf_j was mentioning, and I can only think of the app using the wrong translation domain. The string is present in the catalog, and in the compiled file when doing a msgunfmt /usr/share/locale-langpack/ca/LC_MESSAGES/systemsettings.mo
[20:41] <seele> ;eople are complaining about the color of the open office splash?
[20:41]  * seele didnt even realised we pick that and thought it just changed on its own
[20:41] <apachelogger> ScottK: kalternatives ... anyway, I am more thinking of the technical sensibility... no matter whether it is usable, it just should be possible :D
[20:42] <ScottK> It should be possible.
[20:42] <ScottK> OTOH, leave it brown and tell people to make KOffice better if they want blue would be another approach.
[20:43] <apachelogger> that said, we should get some minions to push koffice along
[20:43] <apachelogger> at least bug triagewise
[20:45] <dpm> so ladies and gentlemen, I now have to call it a day. Thank you very much for your help on the Kubuntu Translations Day!
[20:45] <dpm> There is still a lot to do, but I think we're on the way to make translations rock.
[20:45] <JontheEchidna> ^We should do this more often
[20:45] <dpm> good night everyone
[20:46] <dpm> sure :)
[20:47] <KhaoticMind> hey apachelooger, I'm trying to work on bug 290304. I've senet an email to you about it
[20:57] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: are you sure you want to, skim is going to disappear + what you need to change got nothing to do with kde 4 :D
[20:59] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: anyway, what you need to do is patch the buildsystem to install the icon to hicolor rather than crystalsvg (since hicolor is the freedesktop fallback for everything and the universe, so every desktop, that includes KDE 4, will eventually come to use icons there, unless it can find the icon file in the configured icon themes)
[20:59] <KhaoticMind> apachelogger: yeah, is it really going away?
[21:00] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: midtermish... since KDE 3 is going to go away at some point, all the apps using it are as well
[21:01] <KhaoticMind> I see, I've found an irclog of you and other guy that tried fixing it last year and you mentioned that.
[21:01] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: you could give fixing it a try, you'll certainly come to understand why autotools (the buildsystem used in KDE 3 and GNOME) equals hell and why you shouldn't use it without very good reasons :D
[21:01] <KhaoticMind> I THINK I already fixed it (changing paths),I've also fixed the build, that was not working
[21:01] <KhaoticMind> lol :)
[21:02] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: in this case, create a debdiff (debdiff OLD_DSC_FILE NEW_DSC_FILE > debiff)
[21:02] <apachelogger> then attach that debdiff file to the bug and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[21:03] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperGuide/Sponsorship for an indepth description of the ubuntu sponsoring process
[21:04] <KhaoticMind> apachelogger: okkie. I'll just have to figure out how to do the debdiff. I've to write a entry in debian/changelog before I get any difference showing up on teh .dsc, right?
[21:04] <ScottK> yes
[21:05] <KhaoticMind> w/in 1
[21:05] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: well, you have to do that before you get a new dsc file
[21:05] <apachelogger> otherwise dpkg-buildpackage is overwriting the old dsc
[21:05] <apachelogger> anyway
[21:05] <KhaoticMind> apachelogger: I see. Will try it when get home
[21:06] <apachelogger> KhaoticMind: there is a pretty cool package called 'devscripts' which comes with a lot of fancy tools for packaging
[21:06] <apachelogger> among them is dch
[21:06] <apachelogger> which will assist you in editing the debian changelog
[21:06] <apachelogger> e.g. dch -i will increment the ubuntu revision and open an editor so you can make an entry
[21:07] <apachelogger> oh my, I gotta go :)
[21:07] <apachelogger> cyas
[21:20] <asier> hi, i don't know if someone has say something about, but the basque translation is broken
[21:21] <asier> it seems that it comes from a kde problem.
[21:21] <asier> How can i compile all the po files from the kde respository?
[21:21] <asier> just to test the translation
[21:22] <JontheEchidna> asier: yeah, we were thinking it was a kde problem here too. let me see if I can find the bug reports in a minute
[21:22] <asier> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-pack-kde-eu/+bug/376686
[21:22] <JontheEchidna> ah, yeah
[21:23] <JontheEchidna> the kde-l10n-eu package should has all the upstream .po files, if I'm not mistaken
[21:25] <micmord> Riddell: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/236118/ dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/plasma-widget-networkmanagement_0.1~svn1002781-0ubuntu1~ppa1_i386.deb
[21:26] <asier> Can the original kde translation files be imported again from kde to launchpad?
[21:27] <JontheEchidna> asier: if they have changed, they are imported again each time the kde-l10n-* packages have uploaded
[21:27] <JontheEchidna> *are uploaded
[21:36] <Riddell> micmord: fooy, thanks, I'll fix that
[21:37] <Riddell> asier: you can compile the KDE ones to see if they have the same problem, apt-get source kde-l10n-eu; cd kde-l10n-eu-<tab>; debuild; and install the .deb it makes
[21:38] <Riddell> seele: the OO splash is an ubuntu customisation (so blame kwwii :)  but it can't easily be changed for kubuntu vs ubuntu desktop
[21:42] <asier> Ridell: I'll try
[22:15] <asier> Ridell: In the package i've downloaded the trasnlation
[22:17] <asier> Ridell: is wrong. It seems that the user Zopov has inported the bulgarian translations into the basque ones. So can those changes be reverted?
[22:18] <asier> Ridell: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+lang/eu/+index?start=150&batch=75
[22:30] <ScottK> dpm-afk would be the one to ask I think.
[22:31]  * ScottK just finished evangelizing the owner of the local Subway restaraunt.
[22:48] <ScottK> Another Kubuntu Live CD going home with a potential convert.
[22:54] <ScottK> Somebody upload something.  There are buildd's that aren't building KDE stuff.
[22:55] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: we could do that if you sponsor bug 406471
[22:55] <ScottK> Heh.
[22:55]  * ScottK looks
[22:56] <JontheEchidna> Thanks
[22:59] <claydoh> dangit I finally get a decent wifi card for this laptop, have to take it apart to route the antennas
[22:59] <claydoh> then install karmic alpha, so far so nice :)
[22:59] <claydoh> update that, and boom the new kernel seems to not like my laptop :(
[23:00] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Do you want to provide a transitional package from gtk-qt-engine?
[23:00] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: Due to versioning differences we can't, unfortunately
[23:00] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: OK.
[23:03] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Did you talk to the Debian people about getting this into Debian?
[23:04] <JontheEchidna> I haven't, though I supose I should
[23:09] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Yes.  You should.  I adjusted maintainer slightly and am uploading now.
[23:10] <ScottK> Gone
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> Here I am boilerplate closing the first bugs I reported (gtk-qt-engine)
[23:26] <JontheEchidna> I reported like, a dozen of those


[15:06] <highvoltage> hey everyone
[15:07] <highvoltage> does ubuntu-irc still need some help? I'm almost always on IRC so if there's something I could do I'd be glad to help
[15:08] <niko> here we count join/quit
[19:09] <IngForigua> Hello, i'm ubuntu, member, how i can use the cloak on irc freenode
[19:09] <Pici> IngForigua: What is your launchpad id?
[19:10] <IngForigua> it is https://launchpad.net/~ingforigua
[19:11] <Pici> IngForigua: can you make sure that you have en email address attached to your nick? /msg nickserv info   will tell you.  I don't need to know what it is, just that its there.
[19:13] <IngForigua> Yes i have an email addres attached
[19:18] <Pici> er
[19:19] <Pici> niko, nalioth: If one of you has a moment could you please apply an ubuntu/member cloak to IngForigua?
[20:24] <aergasdf> deutsch?
[20:24] <aergasdf> warum bin ich in #ubuntu-de gebannt???? ich war noch niemals dort!!!
[20:27] <aergasdf> jemand da?
[20:27] <Pici> one moment, let me get the attention of one of their operators.
[20:30] <Pici> aergasdf: Looks like they are in #ubuntu-de-ops  sorry for having you join yet another channel.
[20:31] <aergasdf> like a puzzle xD


[00:19] <lifeless> pickscrape: what format branch are you using ?
[00:19] <lifeless> mwhudson: actually, its quite easy to beat that :)
[00:23] <pickscrape> lifeless: default. Branch format strikes me as being a quite scary thing to mess with (coming from an svn/svk background here).
[00:25] <Odd_Bloke> pickscrape: What version of bzr are you using?
[00:26] <pickscrape> 1.1.0
[00:34] <lifeless> pickscrape: bzr info will tell you
[00:34] <lifeless> pickscrape: I want to know if it says pack-something
[00:35] <lifeless> pickscrape: if it does, pushing over sftp rather than bzr+ssh will likely be much faster, for big pushes.,
[00:42] <lifeless> jam: ping
[00:46] <pickscrape> lifeless: Knit repository format 1
[00:47] <pickscrape> I was actually using sftp before I tried bzr+ssh. It was running slowly too.
[00:47] <pickscrape> Pushing locally on the server is going much quicker though (obviously)
[00:52] <lifeless> you should upgrade to packs
[00:52] <lifeless> _much_ faster
[01:42] <lifeless> looking for review: http://bundlebuggy.aaronbentley.com/request/%3C1202953186.6790.187.camel@lifeless-64%3E
[01:42] <lifeless> abentley: I have a use case to cherry pick against two branches simultaneously :)
[02:25] <abentley> lifeless: err?
[02:35] <ubotu> New bug: #191729 in bzr-svn "Initial svn+http repository not remembered" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191729
[02:39] <lifeless> abentley: I have two branches which have pending merge requests on bb; I have a third branch based on both, which I'd like to send in for separate review
[02:41] <abentley> I think the best you can do is merge one into the other and then generate a merge directive against that.
[02:42] <abentley> I'm willing to consider the possibility, however slight, that this is not an ideal workflow for some people.
[02:42] <lifeless> ;)
[02:42] <lifeless> normally I would stack them that way
[02:42] <lifeless> this was unplanned
[02:44] <abentley> I'm not sure whether the notion of cherrypicks can be naturally extended to multiple bases.
[02:44] <lifeless> so given A,B ->C
[02:45] <lifeless> I want a cherrypick of C to have the unique lines added to C but not added to A or B
[02:45] <lifeless> clearly it won't apply cleanly to just A, if I alter what B added in C, and vice verca.
[02:47] <abentley> Yeah, I think I understand what you want.  I'm not sure what that would require for patch generation or merge application.
[02:55]  * igc food
[02:55] <abentley> lifeless: I think the technique used to do cherrypicks with knit and LCA merge could be extended to multiple bases.
[03:08] <lifeless> wow
[03:08] <lifeless> the vim packaging folk really don't like 'Just Works'
[03:08] <lifeless> http://pkg-vim.alioth.debian.org/vim-policy.html/
[03:21] <ubotu> New bug: #191731 in bzr-svn "Memory problems prevent branch of large svn repositories" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191731
[03:24] <javamaniac> Hi
[03:24] <javamaniac> someone knows an equivalent to "hg incoming" en bzr?
[03:24] <javamaniac> in*
[03:25] <Peng> javamaniac: bzr missing.
[03:25] <Peng> javamaniac: It does both incoming and outgoing. See "bzr help missing" for args to only show one of them.
[03:25] <javamaniac> ok, let's see
[03:26] <Peng> javamaniac: If you're planning to pull, you can also do "bzr pull -v" to pull new csets and list them at the same time.
[03:31] <javamaniac> Peng, in mercurial , there's a -p to show the patch of those "missing" changesets, I can't see something like that in bzr, How can I achieve  that?
[03:33] <bob2> bzr diff branch_path
[03:38] <mwhudson> bzr diff -r ancestor:branchpath is often more what you want
[03:43] <pickscrape> n
[03:43] <pickscrape> Sorry, wrong window :)
[04:49] <lifeless> ok, I need to do some more upgrade infrastructure
[04:49] <lifeless> tomorrow
[05:44] <spiv> BzrDir.find_branches seems to eat a lot of memory.  (I've noticed this with bzr multi-pull and now the bzr-avahi plugin)
[05:50] <jamesh> spiv: I used to have my own version of it in bzr-avahi
[05:50] <jamesh> by using code from bzrlib, it is magically someone else's problem
[05:50] <spiv> jamesh: :)
[05:50] <spiv> I should play with heapy or similar and find out where the memory is going.
[07:47] <vila> poolie2, poolie__ : hi. It looks like bzr-1.rc1.tar.gz and bzr-1.2 branch do not match
[07:48] <poolie__> i think it was rejected
[07:48] <poolie__> i'll check
[07:48] <poolie__> i'm trying to fix bug 189915 at the moment
[07:48] <vila> poolie__: kthks
[07:48] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 189915 in bzr "bzr 1.1 dapper PPA debs FTBFS" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/189915
[08:05] <jml> poolie__: you may find this site amusing: http://www.freerice.com
[08:05] <jml> man, that reads like spam
[08:06] <poolie__> rice rice baby
[08:07] <poolie__> hm
[08:08] <poolie__> refined carbs/handouts/banner adds/bizarro wristband campaigns/etc
[08:09] <poolie__>    1. hoary means:
[08:09] <poolie__>    2. urgent
[08:09] <poolie__>    3. singsong
[08:09] <poolie__>    4. gruesome
[08:09] <poolie__>    5. ancient
[08:09] <jamesh> 6. Linux Distribution
[08:09] <AfC> 5
[09:58] <Peng> Should patches that haven't been merged yet move their NEWS entries out of the 1.2 section?
[10:16] <pygi> hi
[10:28] <Peng> Oh no! I typoed a commit message! :(
[10:29] <Parker-> then uncommit :P
[10:30] <Peng> It's a few commits old.
[10:30] <Peng> I never noticed, so perhaps no one else will, eh?
[10:31] <Parker-> heh... yep...
[10:31] <Parker-> and tyops aer cmmoon
[10:33] <Peng> Yeah.
[11:21]  * mvo_ sends a valentines card to bzr shelve/unshelve for being so nice
[11:29] <pygi> hey folks
[11:29] <pygi> how would I resolve a tag conflict?
[11:46] <ignas> hi
[11:53] <ignas> how do I get a changelog when comparing 2 branches? I want to get a list of changes present in one branch, but not in the other ...
[11:55] <jelmer> ignas: bzr issing
[11:55] <dato> ignas: missing, passing --mine-only or --theirs-only as appropriate
[11:55] <jelmer> *missing
[11:56] <ignas> thanks
[11:58] <ignas> but it has no "-d" parameter it seems :/
[11:59] <pygi> this tags stuff seems so weird ...
[12:10] <pygi> solved
[12:30] <ubotu> New bug: #191813 in bzr-webserve "Inventory: Pressing a binary file show binary data" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191813
[12:34] <vila> ubotu: Don't Do That Then ! :)
[16:15] <cr3> thanks folks for having created that bzr package for dapper :)
[19:15] <ubotu> New bug: #191917 in bzr "bzr cvsps-import crashes with assertion error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191917
[20:48] <garyvdm> Hi - I'm trying to use bzr-svn for the first time. I'm geting this error: http://pastebin.org/19627
[20:48] <garyvdm> What am I doing wrong?
[20:49] <jelmer> garyvdm: use "bzr svn-push" if you're trying to create a new branch
[20:49] <garyvdm> Ok
[20:49] <jelmer> Whoops, looks like you're not trying to do that...
[20:50] <garyvdm> Trying to create a local branch
[20:50] <garyvdm> Not one on svn :-)
[20:50] <garyvdm> ~/meld = init-repo --subversion
[20:51] <jelmer> then you are trying to create a new branch in subversion
[20:51] <jelmer> if you want to make a local copy, use init-repo --rich-root-pack
[20:51] <garyvdm> Oh - ok
[20:51] <jelmer> init-repo --subversion creates a subversion repository
[20:52] <garyvdm> Thanks - its working now.
[21:56] <james_w> poolie__: hi. I'm not sure if you did the upload to the PPA, but it FTBFS again.
[21:56] <james_w> poolie__: from a quick glance it seems that you need to Build-Depend on python-all instead of python.
[21:57] <james_w> poolie__: also, it seems that you may be using python-support, rather than python-central. If you have changed this then you should be aware that last time I looked the plugins and the core had to use the same system otherwise the plugins weren't registered.
[21:57] <james_w> poolie__: if you already know all of this, or it wasn't you then my apologies.
[22:13] <igc> morning
[22:41] <poolie__> james_w, thanks, i was aware it had probably failed
[22:41] <poolie__> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/189915
[22:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 189915 in bzr "bzr 1.1 dapper PPA debs FTBFS" [Critical,In progress]
[22:41] <poolie__> lamont says that python-central isn't in dapper
[22:42] <lamont> poolie__: exactly
[22:42] <dato> there was a patch for dapper by jeff licquia
[22:42] <james_w> is python-support?
[22:42] <dato> but it was so minimal when I read it that I don't know if it was correct
[22:42] <dato> you *could* try to build the sarge backport
[22:42] <poolie__> there is a patch on that bug from lamont
[22:43] <poolie__> so can we switch it to python-support on all distros, or do they need to remain different?
[22:44] <james_w> yeah, you could do that. However all plugins would have to be changed at the same time.
[22:44] <james_w> (all packages of plugins I mean)
[22:45] <lifeless> poolie__: are you using the bzr-packaging-teams packaging ?
[22:45] <poolie__> I was trying to just uupdate from that
[22:45] <lifeless> poolie__: if you extended my packages you are
[22:46] <poolie__> but i have tried to use the same packaging across all distros, which is the problem
[22:46] <poolie__> do they have different branches for each distro?
[22:46] <lifeless> yes
[22:46] <lifeless> distro release rather
[22:46] <james_w> there is an etch-backports branch I think, but it doesn't have the changes you need.
[22:46] <lifeless> sid & hardy are the same
[22:46] <lifeless> and dapper and etch
[22:47] <lifeless> I used the patch from the list to convert the hardy branch down to dapper
[22:47] <dato> dapper != etch
[22:47] <lifeless> dato: hmm, true; I'd actually have to go check my branches
[22:47] <lifeless> poolie: point is - yes every distro code name had its own branch
[22:48] <lifeless> poolie: where the deps and build stuff was the same I pulled between them, when it wasn't I merged changes.
[22:48] <dato> personally I think not using nor pycentral nor pysupport would be best for dapper
[22:49] <lifeless> too many negatives
[22:49] <poolie> using neither you mean
[22:49] <poolie> ok
[22:49] <james_w> Couldn't it just be built for the default python in dapper?
[22:50] <lifeless> james_w: dapper is pre the modern python packaging stuff entirely
[22:50] <dato> right
[22:50] <james_w> yeah, but I mean just don't even try and support more than one python.
[22:50] <dato> so you just build it the old way
[22:51] <dato> and it's much easier than sarge because python points to 2.4 and not 2.3, and docutils is already at 4.x
[22:51] <dato> 0.4 I mean
[23:19] <lifeless> poolie: spiv: ping
[23:19] <spiv> igc: file:///usr/share/doc/python2.4/html/lib/standard-encodings.html
[23:20] <spiv> lifeless: pong
[23:20] <igc> thanks spiv
[23:20] <lifeless> can we talk about the network protocol; I've sent mail but I have to assume there is some confusion reigning
[23:21] <spiv> lifeless: sure
[23:21] <spiv> lifeless: it looks like I was unclear in my mail
[23:21] <lifeless> I read 'lets not do X because Y, where Y is unrelated'
[23:22] <spiv> lifeless: by "interruption", I mean interruption by the sender, not the receiver.
[23:23] <spiv> lifeless: i.e. "here's a body... *streams* -- Oops!  I just exploded, and am aborting the stream."
[23:24] <spiv> lifeless: it's still all half-duplex.
[23:24] <lifeless> spiv: which is precisely why I suggested have the tuple stuff exclusively after the body
[23:24] <spiv> lifeless: but requests have the same issue.
[23:24] <spiv> lifeless: they can also stream bodies, and should have a way to explicitly signal "oops, that's not a complete stream because I just blew up."
[23:25] <lifeless> spiv: right, symmetry. do it the same way for both directions.
[23:25] <spiv> lifeless: but requests can't have the body come before the verb, because that would force the server to buffer, because it wouldn't know what the body was for.
[23:28] <lifeless> spiv: this is true
[23:32] <lifeless> spiv: so noting that; the situation is not identical because the server doesn't have state but neither does the client
[23:32] <lifeless> spiv: also the client may well be unable to finish the stream without additional structured data.
[23:32] <lifeless> spiv: so perhaps saying entity: [*TUPLE|BYTES)+]
[23:34] <spiv> lifeless: you mean rather a body being just a series of byte chunks, make it optionally more structured?
[23:35] <lifeless> no, I mean making the entire message a series of things
[23:35] <lifeless> where each thing is either a tuple
[23:35] <lifeless> or a bytestream
[23:35] <spiv> That sounds like an over-generalisation to me.
[23:36] <lifeless> perhaps
[23:36] <lifeless> but you are proposing
[23:36] <lifeless> TUPLE [BYTES, TUPLE]
[23:36] <lifeless> already
[23:36] <lifeless> or something like that
[23:36] <spiv> I'm worried that sort of free-form structure would require more complexity than we need...
[23:38] <spiv> Something like that.  Basically it's still ARGS [BODY], with the possibility to abort the BODY.
[23:38] <lifeless> which means the body is delimited
[23:39] <lifeless> and you wanted to add error details when its aborted
[23:39] <spiv> And so far the ARGS + BODY idiom has fit pretty well with what we've wanted to do.
[23:39] <lifeless> which means another ARGS
[23:39] <lifeless> :)
[23:39] <spiv> Right, those are some of the details.  I'm just saying the protocol still conceptually is directly related to what the code does and expects.
[23:40] <poolie> i can't parse
 spiv: so noting that; the situation is not identical because the server doesn't have state but neither does the client
[23:40] <spiv> [(TUPLE|BYTES)+] basically suggests to me a whole extra layer.
[23:40] <poolie> and i'm not sure how that would map into the api
[23:41] <poolie> at the moment, it is: after getting the header, you can read the bytes, but that
[23:41] <poolie> and each call to do so can either 1-return bytes 2-return eof 3-raise an erro
[23:41] <poolie> r
[23:41] <poolie> this seems reasonable for both client and server
[23:41] <poolie> hm
[23:42] <poolie> i guess i can see how the more general structure would work
[23:42] <poolie> allowing the receiver to say, stream some bytes, now read a tuple, etcr
[23:43] <lifeless> I don't seee TUPLE [BYTES[TUPLE]] as being any harder than (TUPLE|BYTES)+
[23:45] <poolie> i guess we could have messages saying, um
[23:45] <poolie> or message types
[23:45] <spiv> Well, we can always use streamed bodies for complex structured data like that.  I don't know that that's a common enough case to make it be the overall protocol.
[23:46] <poolie> start of message, parameters, bytes, error, end of message
[23:47] <spiv> Adding flexibility to the protocol has the downside that now you expect the request handlers and response handlers to be able to cope with that flexibility.  *Maybe* we can hide most of that in the default base class for request handlers (although we don't really have such a thing for response handlers), but I'm not sure.
[23:48] <poolie> if we had the messages marked that way, and the receiver knew what they expected, then it could be an error for them to get parameters when they expected bytes
[23:48] <spiv> poolie: we already have "start of message, parameters, bytes, error, end of message", we call them requests ;)
[23:51] <poolie> so i think robert is saying
[23:52] <poolie> why not make that ordering a convention rather than a requirement
[23:52] <poolie> so that the api can possibly send more parameters after the body, or some such
[23:52] <poolie> and i guess it'd be an error if the receiver was not expecting it
[23:52] <spiv> I guess because I'm not sure that we'll actually have a use for this complexity.  We can always send bencoded structures (and already do), or multiple requests.
[23:53] <poolie> i share that uncertainty
[23:53] <spiv> And degrees of freedom don't come for free, so my inclination is to say YAGNI.
[23:53] <poolie> here is one case, which has an analog in http
[23:54] <poolie> we want to send the contents of a file, and afterwards send its hash for verification
[23:54] <poolie> the sender wants to compute the hash as it's streaming the file
[23:55] <poolie> it would be possible for it to encode that into the stream, but that seems a bit redundant since the protocol already has markers for the byte steram
[23:57] <spiv> Hmm.
[23:57] <poolie> this is a case where the receiver might reasonably read the stream, then ask to read more parameters
[23:59] <spiv> That's true, but I still wonder how common it really is?


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