[02:30] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/730617
[02:30] <ali1234> ^ everyone vote for this bug please :)
[02:41] <ali1234> and this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/791412
[02:46] <ali1234> and this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/772612
[02:46] <ali1234> those are my top three most annoying unity bugs :)
[02:50] <ali1234> that last one claims to be fixed in "unity 3.8.16 SRU2" whatever that means
[02:50] <ali1234> i have 3.8.16 installed; it's still broken
[07:03] <shauno> popey: you're on ios5 beta I believe? tried the g+ app?
[07:04] <HazRPG> ali1234: Hmm, your actually using 11.04? I'm still on 10.10, updating applications that need updating manually or through ppa's.
[07:05] <diplo-> Morning all
[07:06] <HazRPG> diplo-: morning :)
[07:07] <MooDoo> hi all
[07:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> morning all
[07:16] <BigRedS> good morning!
[07:21] <MooDoo> morning BigRedS
[07:26] <DJones> Morning all
[07:46] <bigcalm> Morning kids :)
[07:53] <iulian> Morning.
[07:56] <BigRedS> Ah, morning MooDoo
[08:02] <popey> shauno: yes :D
[08:02] <popey> shauno: there was an update to the G+ app on IOS last night
[08:03] <shauno> ah.  handy.  because it was pants on mine.  was curious if it was me, or ios5 :)
[08:21] <shauno> hm.  it's not offering me an update.  I expect the irish store's a bit 'behind'.  would be apropos
[08:25] <oimon> wow, hotot has just received quite a big UI update
[08:28] <ali1234> speaking of UI updates
[08:28] <ali1234> what happened to calibre in natty?
[08:28] <ali1234> it used to have a fairly decent UI
[08:28] <gord> does anyone have any idea how you can get xchat to not randomly copy bits of irc all the time?
[08:28] <MartijnVdS> gord: copy? as in put in the pastebuffer?
[08:29] <MartijnVdS> gord: don't randomly select text all the time :)
[08:29] <gord> MartijnVdS, right, that bit is dumb, how do i get it to not do that
[08:29] <gord> selecting is not the same as copying!
[08:29] <MartijnVdS> gord: well, not really.. but select + middle click > select + copy + paste
[08:30] <gord> MartijnVdS, click irc window, oh no now my entire copypaste buffer is destroyed with random irc crap is not fun
[08:30] <gord> it allows unintentional destruction
[08:30] <ali1234> speaking of intentional destruction
[08:31] <ali1234> why does the "add repository" dialog always clear the clipboard?
[08:32] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: because you haven't filed a bug about it?
[08:32] <ali1234> it's been this way for years i always assumed it was intentional
[08:33] <ali1234> what's the name of that software sources program?
[08:33] <ali1234> it's the same thing used by software center and synaptic
[08:33] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: apt-add-repository oid?
[08:33] <gord> software-properties-gtk
[08:33] <MartijnVdS> hm, I'm mixing languages here.. "oid" = "of iets dergelijks" = "or something" :)
[08:35] <shauno> so 'dergelijks' would be akin to 'of the like' ?
[08:35] <shauno> or the like .. mayhaps
[08:35] <ali1234> well that's interesting. it doesn't happen if i run it stand alone with gksudo
[08:36] <bigcalm> popey: what's the power usage of the HP server compared to the Revo?
[08:36] <ali1234> oh wait yeah it does
[08:37] <ali1234> it clears the selection buffer, not the clipboard
[08:43] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-properties/+bug/813948
[09:21] <popey> Morning all
[09:21] <Myrtti> meh
[09:23] <MooDoo> morning popey
[09:23] <MooDoo> and hugs for Myrtti :D
[09:24] <JGJones> Morning...
[09:24] <Myrtti> zoinks
[09:24] <JGJones> having read on twitter about numerous people upgrading to osx lion - I just realised...to upgrade to the server version it's another $50
[09:25] <voidspace> JGJones: a lot less than it used to be though...
[09:25] <JGJones> and apparently that comes with Xsan Clustered File System - which Apple used to charge thousands for
[09:25] <voidspace> right
[09:25] <voidspace> speaking of filesystems
[09:25] <voidspace> what should I use for a new server box - ext4, btrfs?
[09:26] <JGJones> Am imaging - you could make a cheap SAN with thunderbolt and disk array that support iSCSI making use of xsan?
[09:26] <JGJones> voidspace, I'll pick ext4
[09:27] <voidspace> JGJones: seems reasonable
[09:27] <voidspace> JGJones: getting Ubuntu server onto the HP Proliant Microserver was beautifully easy
[09:27] <JGJones> voidspace, the reason due to its stability. I don't know enough about btrfs to use it on a server
[09:28] <voidspace> JGJones: right
[09:28] <oimon> btrfs isn't mature yet, fsck can't fix errors even
[09:28] <bigcalm> Good greif HDDs are slow. Never going back from SSD now. This is going to get expensive
[09:28] <voidspace> JGJones: I'm going to RAID 5 the disks with mdadm first
[09:29] <voidspace> oimon: sounds like a reason to use ext4
[09:34] <BigRedS> can libparted interfere with ext4 yet?
[09:34] <BigRedS> or whatever the frontent that comes with ubuntu is
[09:51] <czajkowski> Good morning
[09:52] <BigRedS> good morning!
[09:53] <MooDoo> czajkowski, no aloha?
[09:53] <czajkowski> aloa
[09:53] <czajkowski> Aloha
[09:54] <oimon> aloe vera
[09:58] <MooDoo> czajkowski, that's better, i know it's you now :D
[09:58] <davmor2> morning all
[09:58] <davmor2> morning MooDoo you plaquing czajkowski already
[09:59]  * davmor2 gives czajkowski a big hug to annoy her some more
[10:00]  * TheOpenSourcerer Just watched Atlantis land for the very last time.
[10:00] <MooDoo> davmor2, i was showing my concern
[10:00] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer, rats missed it
[10:16] <czajkowski> now I'm happy http://twitpic.com/5tes46
[10:18] <MooDoo> yum
[10:19] <czajkowski> yes indeed
[10:20] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:22] <MooDoo> why is having a baby so stressful lol
[10:22] <bigcalm> This machine's crashy problems are starting to annoy me.
[10:26] <davmor2> MooDoo: cause where would the fun be if it wasn't ;)
[10:27] <MooDoo> davmor2, i'm stressed out now lol more bloodtests for the misses, kidney functions now :S
[10:28] <davmor2> MooDoo: ha ha! ;)
[10:29] <MooDoo> davmor2, not funny
[10:29] <MooDoo> :)
[10:29] <davmor2> MooDoo: I hope everything it alright
[10:29] <davmor2> is even
[10:29] <MooDoo> davmor2, i'm sure it will be but i'm a big worryer :D
[10:29] <davmor2> MooDoo: I think you always are when it's the better half too be honest
[10:31] <MooDoo> davmor2, and the new nipper
[10:45] <bigcalm> Wah, Twitter OAUTH is making my brain itch
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> Itch? It made mine bleed...
[10:51] <bigcalm> I've had too much or too little coffee
[10:51] <bigcalm> Not sure which it is, best just keep drinking
[10:52] <dwatkins> I considered setting up a script to post to twitter from an application I run, but OAUTH made it so I needed a month to get my head around it.
[10:56] <MooDoo> popey, are you not interested in awards or just that one?
[10:56] <popey> dunno
[10:56] <popey> i am under no illusion that we'd win for starters
[10:57] <Daviey> bigcalm: Yeah, i miss simple auth.
[10:59] <BigRedS> my twitter scripts use a single set of developer keys, which seems to work
[10:59] <BigRedS> I've no idea how you're supposed to do it - this worked and so I stopped trying to get my head round it
[11:01] <bigcalm> This is the library I'm using in PHP http://www.jaisenmathai.com/articles/twitter-async-documentation.html
[11:01] <bigcalm> It helps an amazing about, but it's still not a 5 min exercise
[11:02] <Daviey> bigcalm meet python-mechanize. :)
[11:02] <bigcalm> s/about/amount
[11:02] <bigcalm> Daviey: I should learn me this Python some day
[11:02] <Daviey> bigcalm: or use perl mechanize.
[11:02] <bigcalm> So, use anything but PHP?
[11:03] <bigcalm> :P
[11:03] <Daviey> bigcalm: Is that deprecated now?
[11:03] <bigcalm> Heh
[11:03] <bigcalm> Daviey: it is paying for me to attend Oggcamp, so thankfully not yet
[11:06] <Daviey> bigcalm: seems so.. i just tried to use php.. and got an error.. how can i hide it?
[11:06] <Daviey> http://php.daviey.com/
[11:07] <Daviey> ahh!  I can append ~E_DEPRECATED
[11:08] <Daviey> Yeah, seems to hide the deprecation warning if i hide deprecation warnings
[11:14] <bigcalm> Nutta :P
[11:18] <dogmatic69> anyone know how i can put one mysql table in a ramdisk?
[11:19] <dogmatic69> s/table/database
[11:19] <BigRedS> you could mount a ramdisk at /var/lib/mysql/dbname?
[11:19] <BigRedS> there's probably a more sensible way of doing it, though
[11:20] <MooDoo> czajkowski, please stop with your bad jokes on twitter ;)
[11:21] <dogmatic69> BigRedS: that might just work
[11:21] <dogmatic69> hope it does not corrupt everything :S
[11:21] <Daviey> dogmatic69: if you want REALLY fast writes, you should write to /dev/null.. it's must faster than a ramfs.
[11:21] <Daviey> s/must/much
[11:21] <dogmatic69> Daviey: its for the dest database
[11:21] <dogmatic69> test..
[11:21] <dogmatic69> not production :D
[11:22] <Daviey> ah
[11:22] <dogmatic69> the thought did cross my mind, but SELECT * FROM /dev/null throws missing table errors for some reason
[11:24] <Daviey> then you are doing it wrong.. the data store and schema should be able to be split.
[11:24] <dogmatic69> ?
[11:24] <dogmatic69> the test writes a row, and then tests that its there.
[11:25] <dogmatic69> to /dev/null it would never be there
[11:25] <Daviey> ah! you said it was throwing missing table errors
[11:25] <dogmatic69> it would :D
[11:25] <Daviey> :/
[11:26] <Daviey> dogmatic69: Use the 'memory' storage engine then.
[11:27] <dogmatic69> Daviey: for the tests, it uses the same exact schema as the production. you cant change the engine for the tests as you will not be testing it properly
[11:27] <BigRedS> Daviey: that's cheating.
[11:27] <BigRedS> it depends what the 'it' you're testing is
[11:28] <Daviey> dogmatic69: Well under the covers it == MyISAM.
[11:28] <dogmatic69> and memory indexes dont work the same way that innodb does
[11:28] <dogmatic69> ew, who uses myisam :P
[11:29] <Daviey> who uses mysql for production these days? :)
[11:29] <dogmatic69> non-fanboys
[11:29] <Daviey> interesting.
[11:29] <dogmatic69> people that have real computers and dont use ruby
[11:29] <MooDoo> ips
[11:30] <MooDoo> isp's
[11:31] <gord> czajkowski, and you call me odd :P
[11:32] <AlanBell> it isn't a zero sum game, you can both be odd
[11:33] <czajkowski> gord: no I say you're special
[11:33] <czajkowski> why am I odd....
[11:35] <gord> twitter :P
[11:35] <gord> i can't reply to twitter so i have to reply via irc
[11:35] <czajkowski> why cant you reply to twitter....
[11:36] <popey> one word
[11:36] <popey> "Gwibber"
[11:36] <gord> hey hey, its only because i'm using the in-development new version :P
[11:36] <czajkowski> oh me and gwibber had a falling out, so I've poked the nice ken as I cant even launch it
[11:36] <gord> i'm on O, i expect things to be broken
[11:37] <gord> new gwibber is pretty much the greatest though
[11:37] <MooDoo> gord, is it just one page or can you extend it to show all feeds abit like tweetdeck?
[11:37] <MooDoo> ie multiple columns
[11:38] <gord> MooDoo, i'v no idea :) i don't like to use things like that though so i'v not tried
[11:38] <davmor2> gord: except when you want to reply, launch it from the messaging menu, and it uses 98% of the cpu when fetching.  then it rocks hard :D
[11:39] <gord> there is a bug with converting the backend model in to the frontend model, but ken's working on it :)
[11:39] <davmor2> gord: oh and if you want to translate a message
[11:39] <gord> translate a message?
[11:40] <czajkowski> gord: use web so :)
[11:40] <czajkowski> http://twitpic.com/5tes46  SO DAMN TASTY
[11:41] <davmor2> gord: in old gwibber if you have friends like Ursula that send out tweets in spanish you could click on the cog in the message and click translate this and it did can't in the new one :(
[11:41] <dogmatic69> ok, i think ive mounted this thing to a ramdisk.. how can i confirm this?
[11:42] <gord> davmor2, you could? crazy, i don't think it would be too hard to add, poke ken :)
[11:42] <davmor2> gord: already a bug for it along with the rest :)
[11:46] <BigRedS> dogmatic69: umount the ramdisk and see what breaks?
[11:46] <dogmatic69> BigRedS: it will just degrade to the normal hdd
[11:46] <BigRedS> and find an empty directory
[11:47] <dogmatic69> if there is something in the folder when creating the ramdisk, that will not be removed, i should hope
[11:48] <dogmatic69> i would think it coppies from the path -> ram and then goes about as per normal
[11:59] <BigRedS> yeah
[12:00] <BigRedS> I'd do mv /var/lib/mysql/dbname /somewhere/dbname; mount ramdisk; mv /somewhere/dbname/* /var/lib/mysql/dbname
[12:00] <BigRedS> though
[12:00] <BigRedS> else you'll never retrieve that space, and you'll have *horrible* confusion if MySQL ever starts without the ramdisk
[12:00] <dogmatic69> ill put the ramdisk in bootup script somewhere
[12:06] <BigRedS> and have the boot fail if for some reason it can't mount it?
[12:07] <BigRedS> if you leave old data knocking around, if for whatever reason mysql starts and has no ramdisk it'll just write the data to the old db and you'll have no idea unless you particularly ask it
[12:07] <dogmatic69> that is fine
[12:07] <BigRedS> for the non-hassle of emptying that dir, it makes no sense to keep it full
[12:07] <dogmatic69> its a test db
[12:07] <dogmatic69> it gets truncated before a test starts
[12:07] <BigRedS> in fact, it'd be easier to set up if it's somewhere else...
[12:07] <BigRedS> ah, fair enough. just disposable data
[12:08] <dogmatic69> yes
[12:08] <dogmatic69> the data is in fixtures that gets inserted into mysql before the test
[12:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Tony] OggCamp 11  its happening - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2011/04/13/oggcamp-11-its-happening/
[12:15] <dogmatic69> BigRedS: its about 30% faster on the ram disk
[12:21] <daubers> lo
[12:21] <dogmatic69> o/
[12:30] <oimon> anyone know of a fix i can apply to a windows box connecting to a samba server that requires DOMAIN/user as the login?
[12:30] <oimon> i want it to use DOMAIN by default. they are on a workgroup rather than a domain
[12:41] <JGJones> I have no idea where my phone is and this is increasingly common for me
[12:41] <Kirrus> phone ut?
[12:41] <Kirrus> s/ut/it/
[12:42] <oimon> buy a tablet instead, so it's harder to lose :P
[12:42] <JGJones> yeah I have a tablet - that's why my phone keep getting mislaid
[12:42] <JGJones> Kirrus, it doesn't make any noise
[12:43] <brobostigon> put prey on it. so you can text it, and it makes loads of noise, and gives its gps position, so you can find it.
[12:43] <Kirrus> JGJones: give up and use landlines
[12:43] <JGJones> https://market.android.com/details?id=com.koushikdutta.desktopsms - this app is what make me lose my phone all the time - there's no need to keep it on me to check for messages :)
[12:43] <JGJones> brobostigon, yeah I have prey on it. GPS tells me it's at home.
[12:43] <gord> someone should make an app that can use the microphone to pick up on the phrase "where the <expletive of your choice> is my phone?" and make it start making a noise
[12:43] <brobostigon> JGJones: hmm, ok.
[12:44] <JGJones> Noise - never thought of that...will have to wait for my kids to get home from school so they can hear for it for me.
[12:44] <brobostigon> gord: i have a ringtone like that, it says. "its the wife calling, its the wife." in a firm but soft voice.
[12:44] <JGJones> lol
[12:44] <JGJones> make you pick up quickly?
[12:45] <brobostigon> JGJones: not really, just for the humour really.
[12:46] <JGJones> I have a similar thing to you brobostigon - got an app called Contact Vibrate - assign different vibration pattern to contacts - so the wife get a long and rather annoying vibration (no reference to her character, it's to ensure I actually feel it vibrating and can answer...smartphone vibration aren't that strong)
[12:47] <oimon> no one else rings me except my wife, that's how i know it's her.
[12:47] <JGJones> the DeskSMS app although is great...get a SMS, it goes to your email/jabber chat
[12:47] <oimon> we usually have an arrangement that she hangs up after 2 rings anyway
[12:47] <BigRedS> Ah, saves the conversation that way :)
[12:49] <brobostigon> JGJones: ah, interesting. i dont actually have a partner, i just have it to make me laugh.
[12:52] <dwatkins> I'm still hoping someone will make a Morse code ringtone app, to play the first 5 letters of people's names when they call.
[12:52] <shauno> you know you're a geek ..
[12:52] <BigRedS> haha
[12:53] <JGJones> dwatkins, not quite the same thing - but the contact vibrate app can do that - vibrate in a morse code pattern
[12:53] <BigRedS> surely by now it'd just read out their names?
[12:53] <dwatkins> JGJones: excellent
[12:54] <JGJones> Or you can use these - https://market.android.com/search?q=morse+code+ringtone :D
[12:55] <dwatkins> wow, didn't see those before, cheers :)
[12:55] <shauno> I guess you could fake it by creating a different ringtone for each person.  doing it automagically would be serious nerd cred tho
[12:55] <dwatkins> shauno: that was my plan :D
[12:55] <shauno> (not just geek.  nerd.  in my book, if you cna copy anything more than 'cq' you're totally into pocket-protector territory)
[12:56] <JGJones> https://market.android.com/details?id=net.kgmoney.MorseRing - look like this will do that as ringtone or as vibrate etc
[12:56] <JGJones> Not free - it's about 60p
[12:56] <dwatkins> yeah, I was just reading that JGJones :)
[13:08] <andylockran> set my mother up on ubuntu last night
[13:08] <andylockran> another #mumbuntu for popey's checklist.
[13:08] <brobostigon> :)
[13:08] <dwatkins> hooray, andylockran
[13:08] <andylockran> her mac mini had gotten ridonkulously slow.
[13:09] <dwatkins> I didn't know Macs had that trouble.
[13:10] <JGJones> They do get slow - unless you shove in as much RAM as you can
[13:18] <awilkins> popey, My dear old grey haired mum is on Ubuntu also
[13:19] <awilkins> Maverick, not Natty. Didn't want to scare her too much with Unity.
[13:21] <dwatkins> JGJones: ah I see, I thought it was like the DLL issues Windows tends to experience after much installing and uninstalling over the years
[13:22] <JGJones> dwatkins, no idea if they suffer from OS Rot like Windows - but generally they don't. But as you upgrade to next version...then yup, they get slower
[13:22] <awilkins> Things wot load themselves into the Explorer process are horrible in Windows
[13:23] <awilkins> As are virus scanners
[13:23] <dwatkins> Virus scanners are a necessary evil, though.
[13:23] <awilkins> We switched from Symantec to McAfee at work - went from about 4% cpu usage during file access to more like 40%
[13:23] <awilkins> That's more than necessary evil
[13:23] <dwatkins> Oh right, yeah - that's unacceptable, awilkins.
[13:24] <dwatkins> We use Mcaffe at work, I just put up with it as I have no choice.
[13:24] <awilkins> (I run without a virus scanner at home - I just don't visit dodgy sites or transact any kind of business with Windows)
[13:24] <awilkins> Only play games on my Windows install now
[13:24] <awilkins> So the worst malware I've got is game DRM
[13:24] <popey> I will probably upgrade my mum to natty soon
[13:24] <dwatkins> iAntiVirus was using loads of CPU on my Macbook Pro at one point, I had to disable it so it didn't do that every time the machine came out of sleep.
[13:25] <gord> my version of windows might as well just be called SteamOS
[13:25] <davmor2> gord: haha nice
[13:25]  * AlanBell doesn't use virus scanners at work
[13:25] <oimon> mcafee doesn't actually detect viruses anymore, in my experience
[13:25] <popey> yeah, same here
[13:26] <popey> (steamOS)
[13:26] <awilkins> If only they did Windows For Games as opposed to Games for Windows
[13:27] <dwatkins> Isn't that what the Xbox is for?
[13:27] <dwatkins> Cut-down-windows-so-you-can-play-games
[13:28] <gord> in a way, but without the most important component, a mouse
[13:28] <awilkins> True, but XBox has some flaws. i) I only have 1 television, which the wifelet likes to monopolize ii) they don't release all the good PC games on console
[13:28] <awilkins> And yes ; mouse input is important
[13:29] <dwatkins> You can get a VGA cable for the xbox.
[13:29] <awilkins> Fair enough ; A Kinect would be incompatible with my matchbox of an office though :)
[13:30] <gord> i wish onlive would make a version for ubuntu, that would be great
[13:30] <dwatkins> Yeah, I prefer to play my games sitting down.
[13:30] <gord> play windows games from linux, without the problems of compatibility :)
[13:30] <awilkins> I still have grave doubts about Onlive as a concept
[13:30] <dwatkins> gord: I suspect with it only having a tiny percentage of the desktop market, they just don't see the need.
[13:31] <popey> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTY4NA
[13:32] <popey> "OnLive Is Hiring More Engineers For Linux Client"
[13:32] <gord> dwatkins, 1% of windows gamers might think its a good idea, but i'm sure a much larger percentage would think its a good idea for linux
[13:32] <popey> indeed
[13:33] <dwatkins> What percentage of the desktop market does Ubuntu have at the moment?
[13:33] <gord> eightymadeup percent
[13:33] <gord> why would you even ask that? ;)
[13:34] <dwatkins> The figure I remember was  closer to 5%.
[13:34] <gord> that figure was made up
[13:34] <BigRedS> how's it calculated?
[13:34] <gord> all figures are made up
[13:34] <dwatkins> BigRedS: by browser header info
[13:34] <dwatkins> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
[13:34] <BigRedS> Hah
[13:35] <popey> hah
[13:35] <BigRedS> nice and representative sample
[13:35] <popey> no way are we at 5%
[13:35] <BigRedS> According to slashot stats BSD's probably at 12% or something
[13:35] <dwatkins> I don't know of a better way to determine OS distribution.
[13:35] <BigRedS> well, you'd at least take an average of a bunch of sites
[13:35] <ali1234> ask everyone you know IRL what they use
[13:36] <gord> linux is pretty big in china these days, that would really inflate our statistics, but at the same time, potentially untrackable
[13:36] <BigRedS> but even then you'd accept that you're leaning heavily towards people who browse a lot
[13:36] <gord> its all just made up, but its certainly more than 5 people
[13:36] <popey> I'd suspect we're at about 0.4%
[13:36] <BigRedS> w3schools is a pretty dumb choice if you're going to pretend it's representative. Facebook would be better if you want some *single* site. Or google.
[13:37] <BigRedS> s/pretend it's/pretend a single site is/
[13:37] <gord> i don't think any of those are good
[13:37] <BigRedS> no they're not *good*
[13:37] <gord> much more windows install on bing
[13:37] <BigRedS> just better than w3schools
[13:37] <BigRedS> which isn't hard
[13:38] <davmor2> popey: I wonder if those stats register android as linux then it might be
[13:38] <ali1234> the only reasonable way to track it is by sales figures
[13:38] <ali1234> nobody cares about after market installs
[13:39] <BigRedS> well, it depends why you care
[13:39] <BigRedS> if you're developing something for linux, it's way more important how many of your potential customers are using linux than what proportion of the world is
[13:39] <ali1234> if you care because you are trying to sell shovelware then after market installs are not something you should care about
[13:40] <bigcalm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems # of any use?
[13:40] <dwatkins> http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201004-201104 - they use the logs from millions of sites to ascertain OS share
[13:41] <dwatkins> haha, different numbers again
[13:41] <dwatkins> anyway, my point was, Linux is a tiny part of the OS market, so I can understand a games company being reluctant to spend money supporting it.
[13:41] <bigcalm> I'd say that Google analytics knows the answer
[13:41] <BigRedS> *an* answer. Arguably, Linux users are more likely to be hiding themselves from google :)
[13:42] <bigcalm> Why hide yourself from google analytics?
[13:42] <daubers> bigcalm: So _they_ can't find me!
[13:42]  * daubers puts on his XXL tinfoild hat and quivers under the stairs
[13:42] <BigRedS> to stop google tracking what you're doing, generally
[13:43] <bigcalm> I'm sure that there is a sub-set of any os users that try to hide
[13:43] <bigcalm> But the majority just don't care
[13:44] <bigcalm> Or don't care enough to do something about it
[13:44] <dwatkins> The other trouble is that these stats don't take dual-booting into account as far as I know.
[13:45] <bigcalm> That would be impossible to track without having a unique ID for every machine set up
[13:45] <bigcalm> And then that ID being passed about
[13:45] <dwatkins> Indeed, you probably don't want to enter your MAC address into Google to browse the web.
[13:46] <BigRedS> is dual-booting any different to having two machines from that perspective?
[13:46] <bigcalm> But, a lot of dual booting machines will get the same IP from their DHCP server. Once IPv6 is everywhere, machines might become traceable via just their IP address
[13:47] <bigcalm> BigRedS: you're only using 1 machine at a time. I guess it's which ever you use more frequently and for longer
[13:48] <BigRedS> well, what you care about normally isn't the number of installs (unless you're selling installs) but the amount of use. if you've 5% of installs, but each of those users dual-boots and only uses yours 5% of the time, you've a 2.5% share
[13:48] <BigRedS> of course, that makes it even harder to get a number :)
[13:49] <ali1234> the only thing that matters is how many sales in your app store
[13:49] <awilkins> With the games business larger than the movie industry, a tiny percentage of that pie is still juicy and sweet though .....
[13:49] <BigRedS> ali1234: well, yeah. This discussions is entirely academic
[13:49] <BigRedS> :)
[13:49] <ali1234> it's not even academic
[13:51] <BigRedS> I meant in the sense of not being of practical importance, rather than being of some studious value
[13:51] <dwatkins> It's more that with the amount of effort required to port a game, it's proably much less cost-effective to support Linux than it is to just concentrate on OS X and Windows.
[13:52] <awilkins> Also depends on your platform
[13:52] <awilkins> If you're a DirectX kinda game, you're not porting
[13:52] <dwatkins> yeah, awilkins - I imagine some game engines have been ported, but others never will be
[13:52] <Catbuskris_> our market share will grow larger in time.  i have faith
[13:53] <BigRedS> I don't really care about market share
[13:53] <BigRedS> there's enough people using linux that there's a bunch of good software for it
[13:53] <BigRedS> and enough people wanting it to be *good* that it is
[13:54] <dwatkins> Yeah, although some of the documentation could improve, it's already a huge community, which is excellent.
[13:54] <BigRedS> so long as the market share is such that it's at least half as good as it is now through attracting developers, I'm happy
[14:02] <oimon> wow, linux is catching on vista
[14:03] <oimon> only just read the scrollback
[14:05] <BigRedS> hah
[14:18] <popey> ooo, its the thing in london on sunday
[14:18] <oimon> what thing?
[14:18]  * oimon is working on saturday..
[14:18] <popey> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1032/detail/
[14:19] <oimon> phew
[14:19] <oimon> thought you meant a massive demonstration or something , and i wouldn't be able to get to work
[14:19] <bigcalm> So many broken images on that page
[14:20]  * popey notes I said "sunday"
[14:20] <popey> yeah, wonder why
[14:20] <DJones> I wonder whether this phone gets a BSOD http://www.reghardware.com/2011/07/21/fujitsu_windows_7_pc_phone/
[14:21] <oimon> misread sunday for saturday...worrying
[14:25]  * BigRedS is working on Sunday
[14:25] <czajkowski> popey: oh I'd forgotten about that event good thing you posted here or I'd have missed it
[14:25] <czajkowski> it's only up the road here from me
[14:29] <bastubis> Hi - we're doing some basic ubuntu training at Fossbox today - I'm showing people how to get to ubuntu-uk
[14:30] <rome> hi
[14:30] <hamitron> hi :)
[14:30] <bastubis> They haven't been in IRC before
[14:31]  * oimon rolls out a red carpet
[14:31] <davmor2> czajkowski: you need to go to the #naughtystep till you learn to remeber stuff (you could be there for a while obviously :P
[14:31]  * hamitron walks along it
[14:31] <bastubis> Thanks::)
[14:31] <Ya-Umme> hi every1
[14:31] <hamitron> ;)
[14:31] <BigRedS> Good morning!
[14:31] <Ya-Umme> this is cool
[14:31] <Ya-Umme> feel bright about computers
[14:32] <davmor2> morning rome Ya-Umme
[14:32] <Ya-Umme> o lala
[14:32] <leroy> hi to the folks @ fossbox
[14:32] <Ya-Umme> bbc2, monday 9pm, 1 2 Watch
[14:32] <oimon> bastubis: do you need PCs @ fossbox?
[14:32] <bastubis> always!
[14:32] <piouchi> I am so excited to be joining the Linux community.
[14:32] <bastubis> what's the spec?
[14:33] <bastubis> we're especially desperate for 6 laptops right now
[14:33] <bastubis> we had people sharing them yesterday
[14:33] <leroy> this is a cool seminar - learning nuff!
[14:33] <oimon> dell dimension 3000 PC, p4 3.2 ghz, 512mb RAM, 80gb disk - run ubuntu nicely
[14:33] <bastubis> great - thanks!
[14:33] <bastubis> but we don't have transport
[14:33] <rome> hello every one @ fossbox
[14:33] <oimon> you're in e1?
[14:33] <tyson_> hi
[14:33] <tyson_> hello
[14:34] <bastubis> yes, St katharines Way
[14:34] <rome> hello mack
[14:34] <rome> how r u?
[14:34] <Ya-Umme> nice u could join in the discussion Tyson
[14:34] <rome> ahhhh
[14:34] <Myrtti> hello
[14:34] <leroy> this is so cool
[14:34] <rome> i am loving the ubuntun operating system its great
[14:34] <czajkowski> davmor2: eh I don't take orders from you
[14:36] <popey> :D
[14:36] <popey> Hello leroy, having fun?
[14:37] <leroy> hi popey - yes indeed! You?
[14:37] <popey> great thanks ☺
[14:37] <leroy> Doing ubuntu @ fossbox today
[14:37] <Myrtti> ♥ popey
[14:38] <hamitron> too many fancy symbols :/
[14:38] <Myrtti> your IRC fonts are full of fail then :->
[14:38] <bigcalm> Just type £ to confuse an American ;)
[14:38] <Myrtti> lol :-D
[14:38] <hamitron> £ is cool symbol
[14:38] <hamitron> ;/
[14:39] <oimon> Myrtti: worked for me :)
[14:39] <hamitron> the smiley face and the heart display right for me also
[14:39] <hamitron> still fancy
[14:39] <hamitron> ;)
[14:39] <davmor2> Myrtti: put popey down you don't know where he's been
[14:39] <oimon> where's the ubuntu unicode symbol?
[14:39] <hamitron> I'm only jealous I don't have a keyboard with hearts and smilies
[14:40]  * oimon goes to dragons den with a keyboard for friendly people
[14:40] <Myrtti> davmor2: I was going to make a remark that would have made sense were popey a cat, but it sounded wrong :-P
[14:40] <hamitron> dress it in pink, and I bet it would sell
[14:40] <hamitron> ;D
[14:41] <Myrtti> hamitron: irssi autocomplete ftw ♥
[14:41] <popey> :D
[14:41] <oimon> popey: how long does it take blogs to get initially added to ubuntu-uk? days or weeks
[14:41] <popey> near instant if you poke me, Daviey or xen
[14:42] <hamitron> it owuld look dodgy if I started pasting hearts all over, my trademark is a sulk :/
[14:42]  * oimon poke
[14:43] <Myrtti> hamitron: no need to paste, irssi does it automagically :->
[14:43] <ali1234> 😠
[14:43] <davmor2> Myrtti: I can imagine haha
[14:43] <hamitron> ali1234 broke it all!
[14:43] <hamitron> :(
[14:44] <ali1234> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f620/index.htm
[14:44] <hamitron> 01F620
[14:44] <ali1234> instead of typing :( imma just type 1f620 from now on, k?
[14:45] <hamitron> hehe
[14:46]  * Myrtti contemplates on what kind of a cupcake to make for oggcamp.
[14:46]  * BigRedS requests carrot cake
[14:46] <Myrtti> I wasn't going to make a huge batch :->
[14:46] <BigRedS> In fact, I might bring some
[14:46] <BigRedS> that was a general request for cake, not necessarily at oggcamp or as cupcakes
[14:47] <Myrtti> but carrot cupcakes are nice
[14:47] <BigRedS> carrot cake now would be ideal in fact :)
[14:47] <ali1234> let's hope they're not 💩 cakes
[14:47] <Myrtti> with philly icing on top
[14:47]  * BigRedS doesn't have an internationalised terminal
[14:47]  * hamitron neither
[14:48] <Myrtti> well, if nobody brings cake, I'll go shopping for some. I need cake on that day.
[14:48] <oimon> popey: polite poke/request : i'm added to wiki, just needs the extra magic to add it to planet ..much obliged
[14:49] <Myrtti> if I don't make some myself
[14:49] <davmor2> ali1234: to quote czajkowski >:-(
[14:49] <hamitron> and tea? :D
[14:51] <bastubis> thanks guys - that was really welcoming - people are being really affirmative about ubuntu!
[14:51] <bastubis> Laters . .. wrapping up
[14:51] <popey> \o/
[14:52] <Myrtti> _o/
[14:53] <bigcalm> \o_
[14:53] <oimon> A ?
[14:54] <oimon>  /o/
[14:54] <oimon> aggh fail
[14:54] <oimon> were you doing the YMCA dance?
[14:54] <ikonia> that should be a test on the krypton factor
[14:54] <Myrtti> aw, what am I doing wrong here... the video doesn't show up... was going to watch a time lapse of Atlantis being prepped for takeoff
[14:54] <Myrtti> http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/videos/Go-For-Launch.html
[14:55] <hamitron> such old tech, men in space :/
[14:56] <hamitron> future is remotely controlled weapons, shooting down satalites :D
[14:56] <czajkowski> davmor2: why am I being quoted!
[14:57] <davmor2> czajkowski: just cause you say it best :D
[14:58] <oimon> i can't believe how idiotic this is: "David and Victoria Beckham may have been overjoyed to welcome their new daughter, but, according to a growing group of campaigners, the birth of their fourth child make the couple bad role models and environmentally irresponsible."
[14:59] <ali1234> lol
[14:59] <hamitron> mathematically they are helping the pensions crisis? ;)
[14:59] <ali1234> as if the whole of the rest of their lifestyle isn't quite as bad as having 4 kids
[14:59] <popey> plant a tree
[15:00] <hamitron> actually, am i allowed to burn things, when I plant trees?
[15:00] <gord> i don't think you are just allowed to burn whatever you want ;)
[15:00] <hamitron> well, no
[15:00] <hamitron> haha
[15:00] <popey> a gay friend of mine likes to point out that he has a smaller carbon footprint because he doesnt have children
[15:00] <popey> then I point out he has dogs
[15:00] <popey> which undoes that argument
[15:00] <hamitron> but, if I plant 6 tree, can i burn 5 of them, and still be green?
[15:00] <oimon> anyone that complains about them having 4 kids, i am tempted to say ..how would you feel if your parents chose to stop having children before you were born?
[15:01] <popey> thats quite ridiculous though oimon
[15:01] <popey> oimon: how would you feel if we'd never come out of the primordial soup!?
[15:01] <popey> eh!? eh!?
[15:01] <popey> how would YOU FEEL!
[15:01] <oimon>  generalising, gay people (in bethanl green area) tend to have small dogs like pugs though
[15:01] <AlanBell> as long as they don't set fire to the kids I am sure it will be fine
[15:01] <hamitron> honestly, if my parents hadn't had me, I wouldn't feel a lot..... ;)
[15:01] <popey> my friends have greyhounds
[15:01] <popey> exactly hamitron
[15:02] <oimon> well yes, tongue firmly in cheek of course.
[15:02] <ali1234> this whole thing is stupid on so many levels
[15:02] <oimon> my dog weighs < 5kg
[15:03] <oimon> green party always were a bit communist anyway
[15:03] <DJones> My dog weighs 22Kg
[15:03] <hamitron> a bit? ;/
[15:03] <oimon> :P
[15:03] <ali1234> lol, "a bit"
[15:03] <oimon> they are only green cos red was alrready taken
[15:04] <hamitron> hehe
[15:04] <hamitron> green certainly seems to be in style atm
[15:04] <oimon> i am 4 out of 5 children
[15:04] <hamitron> oimon: how come you are worth 4 times as much as the others?
[15:05] <oimon> cos i'm special
[15:05] <hamitron> oh yeh
[15:05] <hamitron> keep forgetting
[15:05] <hamitron> :/
[15:05] <oimon> "special"
[15:05] <oimon> thought i'd say it before anyone else
[15:06] <hamitron> I'm in a very kind mood
[15:06] <hamitron> also shatted, walked 24 miles today
[15:06] <oimon> :-o
[15:06] <hamitron> shattered too
[15:06] <oimon> check your typing dude
[15:06] <hamitron> haha
[15:06] <gord> we just merged in my branch to unity, the diff is 2.1mb (just code). i'm rather proud
[15:07] <AlanBell> yay, unity is fixed \o/
[15:07] <oimon> wow \o/
[15:07] <bigcalm> All of it?
[15:07] <hamitron> nice
[15:07] <gord> astyle on the entire trunk ;)
[15:07] <hamitron> get it all ready for ubuntu 14.04
[15:07]  * hamitron looking ahead
[15:07] <AlanBell> what I would like in unity is a nice way to launch arbitary applications
[15:08] <ali1234> the entire unity source package is only 3.5mb
[15:08] <ali1234> so you must have touched over 50% of lines
[15:08] <hamitron> or added to it?
[15:08] <ali1234> (or just the really long ones)
[15:08] <hamitron> ;)
[15:08] <gord> AlanBell, define arbitary
[15:08] <ali1234> AlanBell: yeah me too :)
[15:08] <oimon> ordered a pallet of PCs last week..one was missing :(
[15:09]  * hamitron covers his new PC
[15:09] <gord> ali1234, we changed from foo (bar) to foo(bar), that covers a lot of the lines
[15:09] <oimon> is arbitary anything like arbitrary?
[15:09] <ali1234> good work, i hate foo (bar) style
[15:10] <AlanBell> say I want to launch audacity, which I know is in the Sound & Video category
[15:10] <AlanBell> how do I go see all the stuff I have in the sound & video category
[15:11] <ali1234> CoF -> more apps -> all applications -> sound and video (but it has been renamed multimedia anyway)
[15:11] <ali1234> and yeah, that is really horrible
[15:11] <AlanBell> ali1234: then it shows me a couple of applications I have, plus a bunch I don't have
[15:12] <ali1234> then you click "see x more results"
[15:12] <AlanBell> and hides most of what I do have
[15:12] <ali1234> i know
[15:12] <ali1234> that is actually an actual bug though
[15:12] <ali1234> you should never see suggestions unless you are searching
[15:13] <ali1234> anyway you don't have to tell me this stuff is rubbish
[15:13] <ali1234> you're preaching to the choir
[15:13] <gord> AlanBell, ah yes, the horrible drop down box was a result of only having six months to build unity, we'll have a better solution this cycle :)
[15:13] <AlanBell> if it was "CoF -> all apps grouped by category" I would be totally happy
[15:15] <ali1234> judging on past design decisions the "better solution" will probably involve doing away with the categories entirely and just presenting one massive list of everything
[15:16] <oimon> like elementary OS?
[15:16] <oimon> btw who is gonna sue apple ovr the launchpad name?
[15:17] <gord> no one? why would we
[15:17] <ali1234> ugh. the gmail app in android is suprisingly bad, considering...
[15:17] <ali1234> it's telling me i've got 1 unread email. fine. but it won't show it. i have to scroll through a list of 3000 previously read emails until i find it
[15:18] <ali1234> because everybody loves kinetic scrolling right?
[15:18] <ali1234> so we should have as much of that as possible...
[15:20] <shauno> when you say 'kinetic scrolling', I picture someone stood infront of their xbox, throwing two arms into the air.  repeatedly.  to scroll thru their mailbox
[15:20] <ali1234> well that's pretty much what it's like
[15:21] <ali1234> in so much as it's an unnecessary feature that doesn't add usability but consumers decided they want it anyway because it looks cool
[15:27] <gord> i like it
[15:27] <gord> lets me go get through a huge list of things quickly, how else would you?
[15:28] <ali1234> nested submenus
[15:29] <ali1234> or in this case, have an option to go to the next unread message
[15:29] <ali1234> instead of forcing me to scroll through a never ending list of items looking for it
[15:30] <ali1234> it really is never ending - when you get to the bottom it just loads more, and i have 4Gb of email
[15:30] <ali1234> and in the end it turned out that i actually didn't have any unread emails
[15:30] <ali1234> just the two screens were out of sync with each other
[15:30] <ali1234> so the label list said i had 1 unread that i had already read, and then it didn't update
[15:30] <ali1234> so yeah, like i said, pretty terrible, considering
[15:30] <shauno> I use mutt.  tab takes me to the next unread message in a mailbox.  job done.
[15:30] <oimon> usually a refresh fixes that for me
[15:31] <ali1234> i use symbian. it has a button to go to the next unread, and it doesn't get out of sync with itself
[15:32] <oimon> i like the gmail app on android
[15:32] <ali1234> that's what i am using
[15:32] <ali1234> it sucks
[15:32] <oimon> yep, i like it
[15:32] <oimon> :)
[15:32] <ali1234> the built in default email client of symbian works better than this
[15:32] <ali1234> also the battery life on this thing is awful
[15:32] <ali1234> but it might just be worn out
[15:33] <ali1234> it lasts about 12 hours
[15:33] <oimon> should be better than that.
[15:33] <oimon> somehow my phone charges quicker after i put CM7 on it
[15:36] <hamitron> shauno: I reckon I should use a kinect for reading my email, major workout :D
[15:37] <shauno> it could be interesting.  a punch gesture to killfile would make a lot of mailing lists a bit more enjoyable ;)
[15:40] <shauno> "yes, I realise you still miss/resent/pine for -sounder, but *KAPOW*"
[15:40] <hamitron> government could sponsor it, to solve the fat person problem
[15:40] <hamitron> to reduce costs to us
[15:40] <hamitron> \o/
[15:44] <hamitron> hmmm
[15:45] <hamitron> IBM put Redhat/SUSE under the Linux download
[15:45] <hamitron> and Ubuntu doesn't come under that, it is the Ubuntu download
[15:45] <hamitron> ;)
[15:46] <hamitron> reckon this will work? symphony_3.0-1hardy1_i386.deb
[15:46] <shauno> I'd usually say no.  but it's you.  I've every reason to believe your OS may be old enough :p
[15:47] <hamitron> haha
[15:47] <hamitron> I'm on lucid
[15:47] <hamitron> ;/
[15:48] <hamitron> site reckons it is only 2 days old
[15:48] <shauno> figures.  the dust is still settling on the apache move.  it was probably uploaded 2 days ago
[15:49] <shauno> despite sitting on ice since 8.06
[15:49] <hamitron> :))
[15:49] <hamitron> hardy doesn't even have support on the desktop now
[15:50] <hamitron> download and see
[15:50] <shauno> is it not out of LTS completely now?
[15:51] <hamitron> 2013 on the server I believe
[15:51] <shauno> or does the 5 years run from the last point-release
[15:51] <shauno> ah.  yeah.  8+5 isn't 11.  long day :)
[15:51] <hamitron> I have a load of systems still on 8.04
[15:52] <hamitron> gonna format them soon
[15:52] <shauno> I can't remember why I moved to 10.04.  I still haven't figured out what upstart wants to be when it grows up :(
[15:52] <hamitron> I moved what machines I can to 10.04
[15:52] <hamitron> purely for security updates
[15:52] <BigRedS> it still seems to accept my calls to /etc/init.d so I'm happy
[15:52] <BigRedS> I wont be when it stops
[15:53] <hamitron> boot up times are faster though.....
[15:53] <hamitron> :D
[15:53] <gord> just realised that i was fanning myself to keep cool with my netbook, crazy world we live in
[15:54] <hamitron> oh dear
[15:54] <hamitron> :/
[15:55] <hamitron> anyways
[15:55] <hamitron> gonna go get fisha and chips
[15:56] <shauno> boot times I'm not worried about.  I don't have linux on anything I'll be sat in front of
[15:56] <shauno> but sanity .. that's worth something :)
[15:56] <hamitron> so be back in a few hours
[15:56] <hamitron> :D
[15:56] <AlanBell> no idea why boot times are not considered important on servers
[15:56] <DJones> hamitron: Are you catching the fish as well?
[15:56] <hamitron> 18 mile drive
[15:56] <hamitron> eat them
[15:56] <hamitron> 18 mile drive back
[15:56] <hamitron> ;/
[15:57] <BigRedS> AlanBell: because there's a fsck running every time you reboot it anyway
[15:57] <hamitron> may grab a pint or 2 as well
[15:57] <hamitron> laters o/
[15:57] <shauno> boot times kinda matter, but trusting that things will come back up is more important.  and I simply don't understand upstart enough to trust it
[15:58] <shauno> the difference between a service being down for 3, 5, 10 minutes, pales compared to a service being down, and staying down
[15:58] <AlanBell> but if you can get it back up again before anyone notices then that would be good
[15:59] <AlanBell> a server reboot should take less time than it takes a user to find and dial the telephone number of the support desk
[16:00] <shauno> I literally have services that don't come up on boot, and I haven't figured out why not.  that's more annoying to me atm
[16:00] <Daviey> hah.. i've got a few fairly high end servers that take ~5 mins to boot.
[16:00] <BigRedS> Really, spontaneous reboots should be infrequent enough that it doesn't matter whether they can call you in that time
[16:00] <DJones> AlanBell: Are you in #ubuntu-classroom? Current session, How to raise your teams activity level
[16:01] <AlanBell> I am there and it is cheri703 standing in for paultag I think
[16:02] <AlanBell> Daviey: exactly my point, they don't seem to put any engineering effort into boot time at all
[16:03] <Daviey> :(
[16:03] <Daviey> cloud baby!
[16:04] <AlanBell> yeah, virtual all the way, but it still seems odd to me that you can boot a cheap desktop in less than 10 seconds but an expensive server takes minutes
[16:06] <shauno> well, I'm sure they'll be paying more attention to it now that no-one actually cares about non-amazon servers.  since that now makes time=money
[16:08]  * BigRedS remembers arranging 45mins to reboot the Exchange server
[16:25]  * AlanBell remembers a mislabled plug
[16:26]  * MartijnVdS remembers
[16:28] <brobostigon> last time i rebooted my vps, it measured boot time, was 20 secs.
[16:47] <awilkins> BigRedS, Hell, yes, remember the reboot time on Windows being heavily influenced by just how long it takes to shut down....
[16:48] <awilkins> "You're TURNING OFF..... your disk light isn't flashing ... WHY do you need to clean up your MEMORY, stupid server"
[16:50] <awilkins> Even my desktop machine does it
[17:03] <AlanBell> czajkowski: is now presenting in #ubuntu-classroom, applause, questions and heckling in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[17:03] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: what's she presenting?
[17:09] <AlanBell> "An Overview of LoCo Guidance"
[17:10] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: btw, I'm bringing some cool food to the Geeknic on Sunday :)
[17:10] <AlanBell> nom
[17:11] <JamesTait> Hello expert experts of expertness. :)
[17:11] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Am I reading the loco page correctly, meetup starts 11:00 at (near? where?) BL?
[17:11] <MartijnVdS> JamesTait: howdy, stranger ;)
[17:11] <JamesTait> Hey MartijnVdS. :) yeah, I've been heads-down for a while....
[17:12] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: yes, 11:00, pondering location
[17:12] <JamesTait> I was wondering what the main differences are between apt-proxy, approx, apt-cacher and apt-cacher-ng.
[17:12] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Platform 9¾ ;)
[17:12] <AlanBell> could be at the entrance of the BL, or maybe somewhere more picknicish like Russel Square
[17:13] <JamesTait> Since I'm now on a metered internet connection, it would be good if I could have one machine download updates during the super-cheap period, and the rest of my network get them from there.
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: so I need to watch the mailing list, basically?
[17:14] <czajkowski> AlanBell: oi no heckling!
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> JamesTait: look for apt-cacher or approx, they're made for that kind of work
[17:15] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: good suggestion actually
[17:15] <AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_King%27s_Cross_railway_station#Harry_Potter
[17:15] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: I don't know how accessible that is, now the rebuilding is done?
[17:16] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS: Well from what I've read, all four of those packages are, but I wondered if anyone had any hints as to why they're different, pros and cons of each.
[17:16]  * MartijnVdS points in popey's general direction
[17:16] <MartijnVdS> if anyone has played with them, it's him
[17:17] <AlanBell> I will be in London tomorrow, might check it out
[17:21] <MartijnVdS> Last time I saw it was in late 2003
[17:43] <AlanBell> http://kingscrossstation.com/?page_id=10
[17:59] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS: I'll poke popey and/or drop a mail to the list later - thanks. :)
[17:59] <matt_> lo
[18:00] <daubers> Better :)
[18:04] <AlanBell> hi daubers
[18:04] <AlanBell> I am hearing good things about platform 9 3/4 as a place to meet up on Sunday
[18:08] <daubers> AlanBell: \o/
[18:08]  * daubers needs to bake a cake
[18:09] <daubers> I'll be tubing around from Paddington, so am happy to meet people wherever :)
[18:09] <AlanBell> there were squeals of excitement when I child-tested the platform 9¾ concept
[18:10] <AlanBell> it is actually between platforms 8 and 9
[18:12] <daubers> Heh, so we need pictures of random ubuntu-ites running into a wall?
[18:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Laura Czajkowski] An Overview of LoCo Guidance - http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/07/21/an-overview-of-loco-guidance/
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> daubers: isn't that what being an Ubuntuite is all about? ;)
[18:21] <gord> pictures? *super slow motion video*
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> gord: with slowed-down soundtrack!
[18:22]  * MartijnVdS has just started re-listening the books
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> (Stephen Fry++)
[18:24]  * daubers read 2 books and got bored
[18:24] <popey> Evening all!
[18:24] <daubers> o/
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> daubers: Audio books work great for me while sitting on the train to work
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> daubers: 2 hours of boredom/day fixed! :)
[18:25] <popey> JamesTait: hullo!
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> \o popey
[18:26] <Azelphur> Interesting, I think ebay sold/leaked my email address
[18:27] <Azelphur> Started getting spam from etradehouse.com to my ebay address
[18:27] <popey> JamesTait: I use squid-deb-proxy now
[18:27] <popey> JamesTait: have used apt-mirror and debmirror
[18:31] <KrimZon> sometimes I think I'm unlucky, but then I read my old code
[18:38] <MartijnVdS> KrimZon: then you know you're in hell, not just unlucky?
[18:39] <KrimZon> I mean I look back and some stuff that I thought I worked out properly was just a guess, yet it worked
[18:40] <MartijnVdS> and thay, my friends, is why we write unit tests
[19:10] <daubers> nom nom nom apple pie
[19:49] <AlanBell> I think I will check on the exact location of platform 9¾ tomorrow morning
[19:49] <popey> hah
[19:49] <popey> plum
[19:50] <popey> http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/platform9.75.html
[19:50] <AlanBell> it has moved due to building work
[19:50] <popey> ahhhh
[19:50] <popey> phone the station :D
[19:51] <AlanBell> http://kingscrossstation.com/?page_id=10 they did have a half trolley in the wall there
[19:51] <AlanBell> it has fairly recently been moved outside the station entrance http://annabelvita.wordpress.com/2011/07/20/platform-9-and-34/
[19:52] <popey> gotcha
[19:52] <popey> I am looking forward to Sunday
[19:52] <popey> bringing Sam
[19:53] <AlanBell> current plan is to meet at platform 9¾
[19:53] <AlanBell> then go eat food
[19:53] <AlanBell> then go to the library
[19:53] <popey> good plan
[19:53] <AlanBell> I had two kids drop out when I explained they couldn't take books out of the library
[19:53] <AlanBell> "what kind of a stupid library is that then, I am not going"
[19:54] <popey> O_O
[19:54] <popey> your kids?
[19:55] <AlanBell> yes
[19:55] <popey> Ah
[19:55] <popey> I have not explained anything about Sunday to Sam :D
[19:55] <popey> Avoiding this awkwardness :D
[19:55] <AlanBell> I tried to explain it was a kind of book museum rather than a library, but the damage was done
[19:56] <popey> Silly rabbity
[19:56] <popey> -y
[19:56] <daubers> "Book museum"?
[19:56] <daubers> In some cases it's a bit like a book graveyard
[19:56] <popey> Book depository.
[19:56] <daubers> memo to self: Hide from snipers
[19:57] <daubers> Or was that a repository....
[19:57] <AlanBell> memo to self, take sniper rifle
[19:57] <daubers> Also, cake has been decided. I shall make chocolatey muffins, as they'll travel better
[19:57] <daubers> BIG cake for oggcamp
[19:58] <popey> Also.. we have a new sponsor
[19:58] <popey> a company you may have heard of
[19:58] <daubers> oh?
[19:58] <popey> Google.
[19:58] <popey> Which is nice.
[19:58] <daubers> Heh :) That's kind of exciting
[19:58] <daubers> What're they sponsering with? Dosh? Goodies?
[19:59] <daubers> Hats?
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> popey, daubers, AlanBell: Bring some un-buttered slices of bread -- you'll love what I'm bringing :)
[19:59] <daubers> MartijnVdS: O....k....
[19:59] <popey> \o/
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> daubers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculaas ("Modern paste recipe" subheading)
[19:59] <popey> slices or a loaf?
[20:00] <MartijnVdS> it has the consistency of peanut butter
[20:00] <daubers> Ooooooooo
[20:00] <MartijnVdS> so slices would be good, but if you're bringing a knife anyway.. a loaf would work too
[20:00] <AlanBell> popey: "does the stupid library at least have a childrens section?" . . . "err, probably not"
[20:01] <popey> hah
[20:01] <popey> I am planning to bring a fondleslab
[20:01] <popey> or maybe a book or something
[20:02] <AlanBell> I will bring a fondleslab too, and one tall child
[20:02]  * daubers always carries a book or two
[20:03]  * popey always carries a book or 50
[20:03] <daubers> :(
[20:03] <daubers> still want a kindle
[20:04] <daubers> at least amazon can't botch the delivery of an ebook
[20:04] <popey> heh
[20:05] <daubers> Wonder if my friends book is out by Sunday
[20:05]  * daubers checks
[20:06] <daubers> Apparently not :( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sworn-Sword-James-Aitcheson/dp/1848093241/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311278768&sr=8-1
[20:08] <czajkowski> evening folks
[20:08] <popey> pip pip
[20:08] <daubers> lo
[20:09] <czajkowski> chiroooo
[20:53] <JGJones> How do I check if Ubuntu is detecting the firewire port on my laptop?
[20:54] <JGJones> ah
[20:54] <JGJones> its lspci
[20:54] <JGJones> doh
[20:54] <dogmatic69_> o/
[20:54] <JGJones> and it finds it...
[20:54] <JGJones> ok dokey...
[20:54] <JGJones> I plug in a camcorder into the firewire....then...
[20:54] <dogmatic69_> anyone know how i could achive a script that shows the progress in terminal of some process? something like htop
[20:55] <JGJones> hmm I can't remember what it use in /dev for the camcorder?
[20:55] <JGJones> kino think it's /dev/raw1394 but that doesn't exist
[20:55] <dogmatic69_> say i have a cron that runs now and again for a while, and i want to see the progress in terminal
[20:57] <JGJones> Hmm so kino use raw1394 but it also tells me that it's deprecated in kernal...so how does ubuntu pick up the video stream from a camcorder using firewire?
[21:07] <JGJones> hmm...I suspect my firewire port on laptop is broken as it's not picking up camera so tested it on a external HDD that have firewire ports and that isn't detected
[21:22] <dave01945> hi
[21:27]  * popey wonders if Myrtti will be around on Sunday
[21:27] <Myrtti> Sunday?
[21:28] <popey> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1032/detail/
[21:28] <popey> for that
[21:28] <Myrtti> oh no.
[21:28] <popey> ☹
[21:28] <popey> shame
[21:28] <Myrtti> I've got this family gathering type of thing on Saturday here in Finland :-C
[21:28] <popey> ah okay
[21:29] <popey> you are excused
[21:29] <Myrtti> a.k.a a funeral
[21:31] <Myrtti> I have made it a big issue to be at LugR... er OggCamp
[21:31] <Myrtti> :-P
[21:31] <popey> :D
[21:31] <popey> Excellent.
[21:31] <popey> Be lovely to see you.
[21:31] <popey> Have you booked accomodation?
[21:31] <Myrtti> it is my birthday and I'll be where ever I please then
[21:31] <Myrtti> D was planning to commute from south coast but dunno
[21:32] <Myrtti> I've had other things to worry about, I let him do the organisation of that trip
[22:02] <JamesTait> JGJones: Did you figure out your firewire problem?
[22:02] <JGJones> JamesTait, no - I suspect the firewire port on my laptop is broken
[22:03] <popey> JamesTait: did you have a specific question about package caching?
[22:03] <JGJones> as I have used the camcorder on the laptop in the past - um probably 2 years ago, but it worked "out of the box"
[22:03] <JamesTait> JGJones: Possibly, but it could be permissions related. /dev/raw1394 has very restrictive permissions by default.
[22:03] <JamesTait> popey: Hi! :D
[22:03] <JGJones> plus since the laptop won't even detect the firewire ports on the external HDD's either (they also just works in the past)
[22:04] <JamesTait> popey: Nothing specific, really, just the eternal Free Software problem of "there's so much choice, which one is the best?" :)
[22:04] <popey> whats the requirement?
[22:04] <JGJones> JamesTait, aye - raw1394 only get created when you plug in a camera - in my case nothing get created
[22:04] <JGJones> JamesTait, via udev that is.
[22:05] <JamesTait> popey: Very handwavy, really.  Only download package files from the internet once.  I don't care much how it achieves that.
[22:05] <popey> lots of machines?
[22:06] <popey> package building or just desktops?
[22:06] <JamesTait> JGJones: Bear with me a mo, let me see if I can dig out my firewire camera and try this out. ;)
[22:06] <popey> repeated installations or just usual updates?
[22:06] <JGJones> JamesTait, you probably need dvgrab installed by the way
[22:07] <JamesTait> popey: Several machines running Lucid i386, one of which is the machine I'm intending to cache the files on.
[22:07] <JamesTait> popey: Just standard updates.  I don't build many new machines these days.
[22:08] <popey> ok
[22:08] <popey> on the box you want to be the "server", apt-get install squid-deb-proxy
[22:08] <popey> on all machines (including the server) install squid-deb-proxy-client
[22:08] <popey> then forget about it
[22:08] <popey> job done
[22:08] <popey> the clients will look for and find the server via avahi
[22:09] <popey> if the server is down they will just not find it and go off to the repos as usual
[22:09] <JGJones> that simple huh?
[22:09] <popey> yes
[22:09] <popey> magic

[22:09] <JGJones> been a while since I used squid...
[22:09] <popey> you dont need to "use" quid
[22:09] <popey> *squid
[22:09] <JGJones> what would you use then?
[22:09] <popey> its a customised package of squid and avahi, you don't actually *do* anything
[22:09] <popey> thats what I use
[22:10] <popey> but you dont need to know or do anthing other than install those packages
[22:10] <JamesTait> popey: Sounds just about ideal then. :)
[22:10] <popey> indeed :D
[22:10] <JamesTait> popey: Fire and forget.
[22:10] <popey> exactamundo
[22:10] <JGJones> yup...that's fantastic.
[22:10] <JGJones> what about log viewer - what would you recommend as the log viewer?
[22:10] <popey> what logs?
[22:10] <JGJones> for squid
[22:10] <popey> meh
[22:10] <popey> I never look at them
[22:10] <popey> why would I
[22:11] <popey> no apps will use it, only apt
[22:13]  * JamesTait rummages around in boxes.
[22:13] <JGJones> btw how do you find out which app is using a usb device?
[22:13] <popey> what type of USB device?
[22:14] <JGJones> in this case, it's a webcam
[22:14] <popey> lsof | grep \/dev\/video
[22:14] <popey> or something :D
[22:16] <JamesTait> I can't find the blasted camera. :-/
[22:16] <popey> cheese    11167       alan   30u      CHR               81,0      0t0       8804 /dev/video0
[22:16] <popey> yup
[22:16] <popey> that works
[22:16] <JGJones> yeah that works...for my laptop camera
[22:16] <JGJones> but I plugged in my logitech camera...and the green light's on
[22:17] <popey> run cheese?
[22:17] <JGJones> it was working - but now in cheese, the camera's greyed out
[22:17] <popey> mine is greyed out too
[22:17] <JGJones> and I've unplugged it and plugged it back in.
[22:17] <popey> and it's in use by cheese
[22:17] <JamesTait> JGJones: From a very hazy memory, "something" appears in /var/log/syslog when you plug in a firewire device, I can't remember what now.
[22:18] <JamesTait> JGJones: If nothing appears there, you could try lsmod | grep 1394
[22:18] <JGJones> JamesTait, aye I did a tail -f /var/log/syslog and then plugged in camera into firewire. Nothing comes up - I honestly think my firewire port is fracked
[22:18] <JamesTait> JGJones: And if that shows that modules are loaded, then I agree the port is probably not working.
[22:19] <JGJones> popey, cheese not running and doing the lsof |grep show nothing
[22:19] <JGJones> so it's not /dev/video
[22:19] <JamesTait> JGJones: Does it show up in lspci?
[22:19] <popey> firewire webcam?
[22:20] <JGJones> no...now it's a usb camera
[22:20] <JGJones> logitech pro 4000
[22:20] <JGJones> I used to use a camcorder as my "webcam" - better video quality than a webcam.
[22:20] <JGJones> but since I can't use the firewire, I dug out the logitech as it's much better than the laptop webcam. Plugged it in and tested in cheese. it worked...
[22:21] <JGJones> ah...I remember...started Google Talk and tested plugin for video...and after that it's frozen
[22:21] <popey> heh
[22:21] <JGJones> the logitech that is...
[22:21] <popey> close browser?
[22:21] <JGJones> killing chrome...
[22:21] <JGJones> nope
[22:22] <JGJones> doing a ps -A show I have lsusb running
[22:22] <JGJones> shouldn't lsusb just display USB devices and then exit?
[22:22] <popey> yes
[22:22] <popey> golly, i have 10 usb devices attached!
[22:23] <popey> oh, 8
[22:23] <JGJones> hmm lsusb is "kill-proof"
[22:23] <popey> two hubs
[22:23] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/649516/
[22:23] <hamitron> getting to the stage where the USB devices cost more than the rest of the comp :/
[22:24] <JGJones> ok...system monitor tells me that lsusb is "uninterruptible"
[22:25] <Daviey> (reading scrollback, the server installer now has install time support for squid-deb-proxy)
[22:25] <JGJones> ok...how do I kill lsusb?
[22:26] <JamesTait> Hi Daviey. :)
[22:26] <hamitron> you can't kill it?
[22:26] <hamitron> :|
[22:26] <JGJones> nope
[22:27] <JGJones> would really rather not use the Approved Microsoft Error Solving Method.
[22:28] <hamitron> it won't even die with -9?
[22:28] <JGJones> nope
[22:28] <JGJones> even as root
[22:28] <JGJones> status is "uninterruptible"
[22:29] <hamitron> Approved MS way then
[22:29] <hamitron> ;)
[22:30] <JGJones> sigh
[22:30] <JGJones> The horror...the horror...
[22:31] <popey> BED!
[22:32] <popey> nn all
[22:32] <JGJones> oh wait
[22:32] <JGJones> not you popey you can go ;-)
[22:32] <JGJones> I have an excuse to reboot....
[22:32] <JGJones> JamesTait, according to this - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Firewire#Ubuntu 10.04 (Lucid Lynx) and 10.10 (Maverick Meerkat) that need to be done
[22:33] <JGJones> so will do that and then reboot and also get to kill off lsusb at the same time...it's now no longer an Approved Microsoft Error Solving Method
[22:33] <JGJones> ;)
[22:34] <JamesTait> :D
[22:35] <JamesTait> Hm, not sure why the reboot is required there, tbh.
[22:40] <JGJones> hmm
[22:40] <JGJones> that guide didn't help
[22:40] <JGJones> firewire still not working
[22:40] <JGJones> JamesTait, I did a modprobe raw1394 - Not Found is what I get.
[22:42] <JamesTait> JGJones: Weird.
[22:44] <JamesTait> JGJones: linux-image-2.6.35-30-generic: /lib/modules/2.6.35-30-generic/kernel/drivers/ieee1394/raw1394.ko
[22:44] <JamesTait> Ah
[22:45] <JGJones> hmm had a kernel panic
[22:46] <JGJones> anyway JamesTait - any idea on how to get that blasted firewire working?
[22:46] <JamesTait> JGJones: It's odd that the driver isn't found.
[22:47] <JGJones> well I know that it was taken out of the kernel, that might be a reason...
[22:47] <JGJones> however lspci does show I have firewire hardware
[22:47] <JamesTait> JGJones: If I do dpkg -S /lib/modules/2.6.35-30-generic/kernel/drivers/ieee1394/raw1394.ko it tells me linux-image-2.6.35-30-generic: /lib/modules/2.6.35-30-generic/kernel/drivers/ieee1394/raw1394.ko
[22:48] <JamesTait> JGJones: So it should be there in the generic kernel package.
[22:48] <JGJones> right...
[22:49] <JGJones> sigh
[22:51] <JGJones> I can't figure out how my firewire port on laptop might break...I don't use it very much
[22:51] <JGJones> but if I can't use firewire I dunno if it's cos it's broken or if my laptop isn't installing the drivers
[22:52] <JGJones> JamesTait - if I use an external HDD with firewire - does it also use raw1394?
[22:52] <Daviey> hey JamesTait
[22:53] <JamesTait> JGJones: I don't know, to be honest.  My guess would be that it's device-specific.
[22:53] <JGJones> (btw kernel panic is caused by the Logitech Quickcam Pro 4000)
[22:54] <JamesTait> Daviey: You never call. Where have you been? Is there somebody else?
[22:55] <Daviey> JamesTait: Yes. :)
[22:55] <JamesTait> JGJones: Do you have files listed if you do ls /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/drivers/ieee1394 ?
[22:56] <JamesTait> Daviey: I'm sad to hear this, but not surprised. Just tell me it's not DropBox.
[22:58] <JGJones> hmm JamesTait - no ieee1394
[22:58] <JamesTait> JGJones: I should have asked, which version of Ubuntu?
[22:59] <JGJones> 2.6.38-11 (Ubuntu 11.04)
[23:01] <JamesTait> JGJones: Does this help? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FireWire#Driver%20Confusion:%20FireWire%20stacks%20explained
[23:02] <JamesTait> JGJones: I'm still on Maverick (I know, I know) so I can't test it myself.
[23:02] <JGJones> heh...it worked pretty damn well on maverick
[23:05] <JGJones_> sigh...
[23:05] <JGJones_> those community document should list version number in addition to names
[23:05] <JGJones_> I can't remember what number belong to which codename
[23:06] <JamesTait> JGJones: Heh, yes, that can be a pain.
[23:06] <JamesTait> JGJones: 10.04 is Lucid, 10.10 is Maverick, 11.04 is Natty.
[23:06] <JGJones> ah...the legacy stack has been removed from natty which I just about remember is 11.04
[23:06] <JGJones> thus no raw1394
[23:08] <JamesTait> JGJones: So lsmod | grep firewire should produce some output, I guess.
[23:08] <JGJones> it use the Juju stack...
[23:08] <JGJones> still...eitherway, it doesn't bloody work
[23:09] <JGJones> I'm still leaning toward a broken firewire port though to be honest rather than a software issue
[23:09] <JGJones> as the laptop is a dell vostro 1500 - *everything* just works on ubuntu.
[23:10] <JGJones> even use an intel wifi (open source drivers) etc.
[23:10] <JGJones> and as mentioned...it's a Dell...so must be a broken port ;)
[23:10] <JamesTait> JGJones: It does seem the most likely. :(
[23:11] <JGJones> sigh oh well thanks for your help anyway. wonder if the firewire port can be replaced easily...
[23:12] <JamesTait> JGJones: I imagine it's soldered onto the mainboard.
[23:17] <JamesTait> JGJones: That's been a useful learning experience for me anyway. I didn't know about the JuJu stack.
[23:55] <JamesTait> Yawn, time for bed.