[00:01] <diddledan> lol
[00:01] <zmoylan-pi> no an iDivorce
[00:02] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: is that "iDevorce you"
[00:02] <diddledan> erm, spelign
[00:02] <daftykins> i did nearly say that zmoylan-pi but i thought it too obvious :(
[00:03] <zmoylan-pi> but an iDivorce would obviously be more expensive than a normal divorce...
[00:03] <shauno> meh, iNomenclature is so last decade
[00:05] <shauno> regardless.  it's an interesting show of how far apple is pulling ahead
[00:06] <shauno> because all this whining is the same pathetic childishness that would have been kicking and screaming about micro$oft 10 years ago
[00:06] <zmoylan-pi> i'm not so sure.  they own the high end but the bottom of the market is much bigger
[00:08] <zmoylan-pi> on saturday i'll be gaming with 6 geeks.  there will only be 2 iphones there, 4 androids and bunch of nokias used as backup phones
[00:08] <zmoylan-pi> apart from mine which i use as primary phone :-)
[00:08] <diddledan> another graham clueless: https://grahamcluley.com/2015/07/hack-plex
[00:09] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: what's the game?
[00:09] <zmoylan-pi> d&d
[00:10] <daftykins> ah har
[00:10] <intrbiz> hmm, i appear to have no /proc
[00:11]  * daftykins laughs manically and runs off into the distance away from intrbiz
[00:12] <intrbiz> :)
[00:12]  * diddledan prods proc
[00:12] <intrbiz> hmm
[00:12] <intrbiz> and no /dev either
[00:12]  * diddledan digs dev
[00:12] <zmoylan-pi> probably has no /home to go to...
[00:13] <intrbiz> I have /home, just can't prove that
[00:13] <diddledan> lol
[00:13] <intrbiz> and no /sys either
[00:13] <diddledan> intrbiz: maybe you're in a chroot?
[00:13] <intrbiz> nah, it's soem BTRFS fuckup
[00:13] <intrbiz> some*
[00:14] <intrbiz> brb
[00:14] <diddledan> well that killed the konversation
[00:17] <daftykins> :)
[00:18] <intrbiz> note to self, don't run btrfs balance /
[00:18] <intrbiz> running btrfs on root is not for the faint hearted
[00:28] <diddledan> I wonder how the leccytricians are getting on?
[00:28] <diddledan> still no power
[00:28] <daftykins> :<
[00:28] <diddledan> in other news, it seems my UPS isn't
[00:29] <diddledan> it seems to last about 4 minutes
[00:29] <diddledan> which is really sucky
[00:29] <intrbiz> diddledan: often have power outages?
[00:29] <diddledan> luckily no
[00:32] <zmoylan-pi> i've never seen a ups do it's job in an emergency.
[00:35] <shauno> I see thousands of them doing it most days
[00:37] <zmoylan-pi> sysadmin?
[00:38] <shauno> I monitor upses  lol
[00:38] <diddledan> http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2015/07/02/windows-10-preparing-to-upgrade-one-billion-devices/
[00:39] <diddledan> shauno is the guy your boss calls when the ups gets frazzled because the cleaner plugged the hoover into the wrong socket
[00:39] <zmoylan-pi> i usually only see hardware when it's gone wrong.  so for me i always see upses, tape drives, raid arrays AFTER they've failed
[00:40] <diddledan> shauno: I don't suppose you could get an accidental _new_ battery set written off and shipped for disposal in amazingstoke can you?
[00:41] <diddledan> it's a consumer unit tho so definitely a different department :-p
[00:42] <zmoylan-pi> what you want is a submarine battery shipped no questions asked :-P
[00:42] <diddledan> oh shauno knows about batteries that get submerged :-p
[00:42] <shauno> we actually handle a lot of surprisingly small units.  a lot of customers who just want someone else to deal with the whole thing are ones who have thousands of units dispersed
[00:43] <shauno> places that have one in every switch cabinet, or one at every POS, etc
[00:43] <diddledan> so someone's burgler alarm is now blaring. does that mean the power has been off for too long that it's decided to tell everyone?
[00:44] <zmoylan-pi> alarms are supposed to last 24hours before their batteries run out.  but an old alarm with a wonky battery...
[00:45] <zmoylan-pi> or someone is using power outage to break into local bank in uk again...
[00:45] <intrbiz> I think the limit in the uk for sounding is 20 mins
[00:47] <zmoylan-pi> rather alarms are supposed to power them selves from batteries for 24 hours without power in case burgalar tries to cut power to stop alarm.  bell shouldn't ring because of power cut.  if it does it usually means battery is knackered
[00:57] <diddledan> daftykins: was two releases in one week too much? http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2015/07/02/welcome-to-the-faster-fast-ring/
[00:57] <daftykins> totally
[00:57] <daftykins> :>
[01:06] <daftykins> battery going so early bed for me
[01:06] <daftykins> o/
[01:07] <intrbiz> how, in 2015, does C++ not have a f**cking stable ABI
[01:08] <diddledan> I just found an annoying bug in ms-edge browser
[01:09] <intrbiz> yeh?
[01:09] <intrbiz> is it an edge case?
[01:09] <diddledan> when network conditions cause a valid page to fail to load, when you click the reload button to re-request the page it doesn't because internally the browser is showing a page with a url of the form ms-appx:// which the browser then reloads when you click the reload button instead of the original desired website
[01:10] <intrbiz> lol
[01:10] <intrbiz> does edge still override error pages?
[01:11] <diddledan> the ms-appx:// page is the internal error page that you get shown when the browser doesn't have an error from the target webserver
[01:11] <diddledan> similar to ms-ie's "friendly error page"
[01:12] <intrbiz> sure, but old IE used to override 40x and 50x errors with its own pages
[01:14] <diddledan> that error page does include a link which will correctly re-request the proper page you wanted in the first place, though, it's just the "circular arrow" button in the toolbar that doesn't work as expected
[01:16] <diddledan> not true - it only overrode error pages that were smaller than a small size
[01:18] <diddledan> reference: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2010/08/19/http-error-pages-in-internet-explorer.aspx
[01:19] <diddledan> "The default threshold is 256 bytes for the response codes [403, 405, 410] and 512 bytes for response codes [400, 404, 406, 408, 409, 500, 501, 505]. "
[01:20] <zmoylan-pi> the flaw as i see it is you are using a browser from ms...
[01:20] <intrbiz> diddledan: indeed, had so many pages with filler comment blocks :(
[01:20] <diddledan> still no power
[01:21] <diddledan> my emergency light has run out of juice, now, too
[01:21]  * zmoylan-pi loans diddledan a nokia dumb phone to last the next week :-)
[01:22]  * diddledan wanders to the kitchen to have a nosey at the workmen
[01:26]  * ball slumps across the keyboard
[03:15] <diddledan> MOAR POWAH!
[03:15] <diddledan> I CAN SEE
[03:15] <diddledan> what did I miss?
[03:16] <ball> Well, first the Earth cooled and then the dinosaurs came...
[03:18] <zmoylan-pi> there's a sale on at pennys!!
[03:19] <ball> My wife shops at Penny's
[03:19] <ball> (on occasion).
[03:21] <zmoylan-pi> it looks like i picked the wrong night to quote old movies...
[03:23] <diddledan> it looks like I picked the wrong night to quit crack
[03:24] <zmoylan-pi> Surely you can't be serious?
[03:24] <diddledan> I am serious, but don't call me shirley
[03:25] <diddledan> roger, roger, what's your vector, victor, over
[03:25] <zmoylan-pi> ever been in a turkish prison?
[03:37] <ball> I am aware of them.
[03:53]  * ball gives up
[04:39] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: thats a line from "flighing high" right ?
[04:40]  * zmoylan-pi banishes knightwise to a weekend of watching airplane, airplane ii
[04:40] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: I LOVE the scene where the guy pulls the plug on the runway lights !
[04:41] <knightwise> *that face* !
[05:11] <mapps> hi all
[05:12] <knightwise> hey mapps
[05:13] <mapps> man its hot
[05:13] <mapps> just got home
[05:20] <mapps> tv time
[05:20] <mapps> wayward pines;D
[05:21] <mapps> ]
[05:41]  * knightwise just started my day
[05:42] <knightwise> got up a 5.30 while temps are still bearable
[05:43] <mapps> heh
[05:43] <mapps> prob 22c here or so
[05:43] <mapps> i leave window open but then i hear noise from morrisons carpark
[07:41] <diplo> Morning all
[07:42] <diplo> Got an issue, weird.. think I may have seen before
[07:42] <diplo> du -h of a dir gives me a 380G return, go into said directory and there is only about 800mb of files
[07:43] <diplo> I'm sure this is related to an inode issue and how du calculates stuff, but i can't remember
[07:43] <diplo> Any thoughts
[07:48] <diplo> Fixed it, this time I was beinga numpty
[07:55] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[07:56] <popey> yo
[08:05] <MooDoo_> hello all
[08:23] <bashrc_> moo
[08:29] <davmor2> Morning all
[08:30] <davmor2> MooDoo: Todays tune is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuHr00nxeew
[08:31] <MooDoo> hehe brill
[08:32] <MooDoo> I've just read a book called ready, player one and it's caused me to listen to everything 80's :D
[08:34] <davmor2> MooDoo: that makes me think of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxsNnUAyfd4 and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3c2xbYWKY0
[08:35] <knightwise> morning peeps
[08:35] <popey> yo
[08:35] <davmor2> MooDoo: or maybe this now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP8
[08:35] <knightwise> Working in an 18th century watermill today :)
[08:36] <knightwise> Escaping the heat within its thick, wifi unfriendly walls
[08:53] <diddledan> morning
[08:54]  * diddledan wanders off to find liquids
[08:56] <foobarry> inside yuor body
[08:57] <davmor2> MooDoo, popey: You gotta love this guys dedication https://www.youtube.com/user/SmoothMcGroove/videos
[08:58] <popey> not clicking
[09:00] <davmor2> popey: it's worth it if only for the tetris and streetfighter versions
[09:00] <popey> oh, him
[09:00] <popey> yes, I love his work
[09:00] <davmor2> popey: and minecraft
[09:00] <popey> the super mario one is awesome
[09:00] <popey> my kids loved the minecraft one
[09:00] <popey> also i love his cat
[09:01] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:06] <knightwise> FAN TAS TIC !
[09:07] <foobarry> davmor2: amazing
[09:07] <foobarry> i like the underwater super mario 64 one
[09:07] <davmor2> popey: +1 on the cat :)
[09:08] <davmor2> popey: see I don't know why you think I pick bad things all the time, you forget our last.fm was 94% compatible you're just scared they are earworms ;)
[09:09] <knightwise> davmor2: your Last.Fm playlist had over 34% 'one direction' songs in them. We cannot trust you .. ever again
[09:09] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Friday, and happy International Plastic Bag Free Day! 😃
[09:10] <davmor2> knightwise: one direction weren't born in my preferred era of music so I doubt that
[09:11] <davmor2> \o/ free plastic bags for everyone.... JamesTait that's what you meant right?
[09:12] <JamesTait> Plastic bags just want to be free!
[09:13]  * knightwise thinks of the scene in american pie
[09:13] <popey> davmor2: true
[09:15] <davmor2> knightwise: also I'm possibly one of the only people who can hand on heart so I have no idea on any of their songs, I mean I even know baby baby baby chorus by Juggling Baby (I think that how you spell it right) but only cause the granddaught sang everytime we saw her :)
[09:15] <davmor2> no idea how the rest of the song goes
[09:27]  * knightwise refuses to google it :p
[09:31]  * brobostigon is googling what this visa card manager is on his yubikey, when he scans its nfc with his droid.
[09:32]  * knightwise is setting up a bittorrent sync folder on a remote Synology nas to remote-backup his encrypted backup files
[09:32]  * diddledan is twiddling thumbs
[09:32] <SuperMatt> I hope they're your thumbs and not someone else's
[09:34] <knightwise> ok , i need to decomission the old EEE pc at my inlaws ...
[09:34] <knightwise> had ubuntu running on it as a headless machine but by now a raspberry Pi model A is more responsive
[09:35]  * brobostigon wonders if said visa card amanger on his yubikey can emulate an nfc payment card.?
[09:36] <diddledan> brobostigon: surely the visa thingy is an app on your droid, not something magical on your yubikey
[09:37] <brobostigon> diddledan: its showing as on the yubikey. next to its piv and openpgp cards.
[09:37] <diddledan> odd
[09:38] <brobostigon> why?
[09:38] <diddledan> well yubikey isn't a credit card
[09:38] <brobostigon> that it definatly isnt.
[09:39] <diddledan> maybe it's just a storage location for securely saving and reproducing your numbers?
[09:39] <knightwise> reddit is having a hard time today
[09:39] <knightwise> apparently its a bit of a shitstorm going on
[09:39] <diddledan> knightwise: reddit shmeddit
[09:39] <diddledan> I've never really understood reddit
[09:39] <brobostigon> diddledan: i dont know, thats what i am tyring to work out.
[11:04] <diplo> .
[11:07] <foobarry> they are default subs, nothing of value is lost
[11:24] <knightwise> the AMA sub is a big deal though
[11:24] <foobarry> to some i guess.
[11:25] <foobarry> and big traffic drivers
[11:26] <knightwise> true.
[11:26] <knightwise> Yeey ! Episode 2 of Mr Robot ! ! !
[11:26]  * knightwise LOVES mr Robot
[11:39] <awilkins> Ooh
[11:39] <awilkins> What on?
[11:39] <awilkins> Are we talking a massive cloudy peer network of some sort?
[11:41] <knightwise> awilkins: correct
[11:41] <knightwise> big boat with sails and lots of little magnets
[11:41] <ali1234> i just got as a captcha "idk my bff jill"
[11:41] <ali1234> what is happening?
[11:42] <knightwise> ? try one of the proxies
[11:44] <ali1234> so i've got a dell poweredge 1600 with LSI raid controller
[11:44] <ali1234> 2002 vintage
[11:44] <ali1234> it refuses to boot. how can i recover the data?
[11:45] <ali1234> so far i put a IDE drive in it, and now installing ubuntu with PXE
[11:46] <knightwise> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-PowerEdge-C6100-XS23-TY3-Node-with-Raid-card-SAS1068E-R-and-two-heatsinks-/221586702241?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item339798bfa1  ?
[11:46] <ali1234> ubuntu can see the SCSI controller and the drives but it can't make any sense out of the RAID format and says all the partitions are invalid
[11:47] <ali1234> this doesn't seem to be a hardware problem. apparently the problems started when the motherboard failed. it was replaced, but now the system just wn't boot
[11:47] <knightwise> hmmm... and the scisi controller was not replaced ?
[11:48] <ali1234> SCSI controller is integrated on the motherboard
[11:48] <ali1234> it also has a built in BIOS and settings menu
[11:48] <knightwise> maybe the current scsi controller is looking at the raid set all wrong ?
[11:48] <ali1234> i suspect that whoever replaced the MB didn't know how to configure it
[11:48] <ali1234> unfortunately neither do I
[11:48] <knightwise> maybe it thinks its a mirror or something
[11:48] <ali1234> maybe
[11:50] <knightwise> can you change the settings around and see what happens without reformatting the stack ?
[11:50] <ali1234> i don't know
[11:50] <knightwise> you should be able to do that by going into the bios of the card
[11:50] <ali1234> hence why i am installing ubuntu. i will image each drive individually before doing anything
[11:51] <ali1234> i went into the bios but could not see a way to actually change any settings
[11:51] <knightwise> but the scsi controller might have a seperate bios
[11:51] <ali1234> indeed
[11:51] <ali1234> for all i know it doesn't actually have hardware raid at all
[11:52] <knightwise> hmmm.. thats hard to determine just looking at the raw data
[11:54] <ali1234> it's funny... it has 4x 71GB drives
[11:54] <ali1234> and 1GB
[11:54] <ali1234> must have cost a packet... 13 years ago
[11:56] <knightwise> I think it might be one system drive and the other four in raid5 or something
[11:56] <knightwise> can you read the 1gb one ?
[11:56] <ali1234> no it has 1GB RAM
[11:56] <knightwise> ah
[11:57] <ali1234> i put a 40GB IDE drive in to install ubuntu because it can't even USB boot
[11:57] <ali1234> found out my router has a built in PXE server and I didn't even know
[11:58] <ali1234> but the PXE install image doesn't have any nice tools
[12:34] <knightwise> hmm
[13:05] <ali1234> apparently the engineer who replaced the motherboard killed the raid somehow
[13:06] <zmoylan-pi> the old motherboard may have been configured for the card and the new raid card detecting the new mb has reset something?
[13:06] <ali1234> the card is built in to the motherboard
[13:07] <ali1234> and there is no configuration for raid within the bios parts
[13:07] <ali1234> apparently one of the drives was already dead
[13:07] <ali1234> my guess, the drive wasn't actually dead, it was just because of the broken motherboard
[13:07] <ali1234> new motherboard -> old dead drive starts working again -> raid is now totally desynced
[15:20] <foobarry> firefox just froze on me trying to play youtune
[15:20] <foobarry> the honeymoon is over i see
[15:20] <foobarry> killed my pc completely
[15:22] <popey> nuke it from orbit, only way to be sure
[15:23]  * bigcalm wants to know where his Amazon delivery is. Selected next day delivery. Bet it'll be something silly like 8pm
[15:23] <shauno> has it shipped yet?
[15:23] <bigcalm> shauno: it's showing it's out for delivery
[15:24] <shauno> ah ok
[15:24] <shauno> I seem to get a lot, next day delivery, but we'll dispatch when we feel like it
[15:24] <popey> reminds me, new strap for my pebble is out for delivery
[15:29] <zmoylan-pi> how will you check your wrist to see how late it is?? :-)
[15:29] <foobarry> been waiting 1 month for my bag from china
[15:29] <shauno> if you still remember ordering it, you haven't waited long enough yet.   china is meant to be surprises :)
[15:30] <foobarry> heh
[15:30] <bigcalm> Been there
[15:30] <foobarry> i did order about 6 things
[15:30] <foobarry> i did actually forget all the in between things
[15:30] <foobarry> which arrived and were for my wife
[15:30] <davmor2> popey: you broke it already?
[15:31] <shauno> for a while I got to the points where I was hopping on dx.com a couple of times a year just to make sure I hadn't ordered anything that hadn't arrived
[15:31] <foobarry> tinydeal is the new fun
[15:31] <foobarry> http://www.tinydeal.com/lenovo-a399-5-fwvga-mtk6582m-4-core-android-44-3g-phone-p-145178.html
[15:32] <popey> davmor2: no, wanted an additional one
[15:32] <davmor2> popey: phew
[15:32] <popey> foobarry: that looks like dx
[15:32] <foobarry> hmmm http://www.tinydeal.com/stainless-steel-whiskey-stones-ice-cubes-soapstone-p-144287.html?dp=O0102
[15:33] <foobarry> oh yeah, looks samiliar
[15:33] <foobarry> ice cubes that will cause expensive dentistry
[15:47] <bigcalm> Aha, a delivery
[15:51] <diddledan> yey?
[15:51] <diddledan> was it what you were expecting? :-p
[15:52] <shauno> pizza?
[15:52] <diddledan> shauno: what a great idea
[15:53] <daftykins> diddledan: just booted my test win10 box, build 10162 now available!?
[15:53] <diddledan> daftykins: yeah that was the link I posted to you last night against "was two releases in a week too many?"
[15:53] <daftykins> diddledan: oh, i thought that was with regard to the last two
[15:53] <diddledan> nah, it's a third!
[15:54] <diddledan> three releases in 4 days
[15:54] <daftykins> D:
[15:55] <diddledan> so I been fiddling now my power is powerful again. I managed to take a backup of a site I last messed-with in 2005 and managed to seamlessly upgrade it from mediawiki 1.4.x to 1.25.1
[15:56] <diddledan> required two separate intermediate virtual machines with ubuntu 6.06 (dappy) and ubuntu 12.04 (precise) to get compatible php and mysqls for the upgrade
[15:57] <diddledan> tis now running tho and publicly visitable at www.clustergroup.org \o/
[15:58] <daftykins> XD
[15:58] <daftykins> the jump was too far to go direct purely due to software versions 0o
[15:58] <diddledan> indeed. it's 10 years almost exactly
[15:59] <diddledan> last modification date on the homepage is "1 April 2005"
[15:59] <daftykins> :>
[15:59] <bigcalm> diddledan: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00X59GJGC
[15:59] <diddledan> I wonder if that was an april fool :-p
[16:00] <diddledan> bigcalm: nice
[16:00] <bigcalm> I already have 500mb ones, but they aren't cutting it for streaming Steam
[16:01] <bigcalm> Grr, ctrl-w on the wrong window
[16:01] <diddledan> lol
[16:01] <diddledan> nano?
[16:01] <bigcalm> Chromium
[16:02] <daftykins> 1.9GB pulled down, now it's having a break
[16:02] <diddledan> aah. ctrl+w in nano gets me used to it for finding strings but then I try using it in gui apps and shut them down instead of finding what I'm looking for within the open file
[16:02] <daftykins> consistency was always a major pain in Loonix land
[16:03] <diddledan> aye
[16:21] <awilkins> Solution : don't use nano
[16:21] <awilkins> It's evil, use vim
[16:22] <bashrc_> nano is ok for those 'vi has gone insane' moments
[16:23] <daftykins> i'm happy with nano, i've never felt the need to 'learn' a text editor
[16:24] <daftykins> i'm sure it's great if you're a dev who puts tonnes of hours into it, but i'm mostly doing config edits so meh
[16:25]  * zmoylan-pi replaces all the text editors on daftykins system with edlin... :-)
[16:26] <diddledan> lol
[16:26] <diddledan> I am slowly starting to use vi more
[16:26] <diddledan> I like the regex search with just a / keypress
[16:26] <zmoylan-pi> welcome to the dark side, we have cookies
[16:27] <diddledan> and : to go to a line number
[16:27] <diddledan> that's very useful for code editing
[16:27] <daftykins> ah har
[16:27] <diddledan> :65 <-- that goes direct to the line referenced in an error message about line 65 for example
[16:27] <daftykins> that could be handy when peeps in #ubuntu have error logs pointing to a line #
[16:27] <daftykins> better than cursoring down XD
[16:27] <diddledan> aye
[16:28] <daftykins> welp, this update isn't downloading :(
[16:28] <diddledan> aww :-(
[16:28] <daftykins> lets restart the windows update service and see what it does
[16:28] <daftykins> ah here we go, retry button...
[16:29] <daftykins> and huzzah off to downloading at 36Mb again :)
[16:29] <daftykins> and stopped =|
[16:29] <zmoylan-pi> 99 updates on the windows server... bring one down, install, reboot, recheck 102 updates on the windows server....
[16:30] <daftykins> i wouldn't run Windows Server :D
[16:31] <zmoylan-pi> please, you install ms office and it installs sql server for your 10-20 contacts... :-D
[16:31] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: they've fixed that. now it installs sql server express :-p
[16:32] <daftykins> i'm not aware of that
[16:32] <diddledan> lol
[16:32] <daftykins> don't really use Office myself
[16:32] <diddledan> just joshing
[16:32] <daftykins> though supporting it is a common thing
[16:32] <daftykins> good ol' Outlook and its' many quibbles
[16:32] <diddledan> lookout!
[16:32]  * bashrc_ MS Office installs considered harmful
[16:33] <daftykins> really? or is that just part of the childish attitude of Linux users?
[16:33] <bashrc_> The last time I used MS Office was maybe 2009
[16:34] <bashrc_> I don't really consider myself very child-like, but I do consider closed source stuff to be a security threat and to be avoided at all costs
[16:35] <diddledan> bashrc_ but it's so pretty!
[16:35] <daftykins> lul
[16:36] <zmoylan-pi> the sql server for contacts in ms office thing really annoyed me as it consumed so much resources for what was for most people a tiny amount of data
[16:36] <daftykins> i'm used to dealing with the PST and OST files, presumably they're accessed via SQL if what you're saying is still true?
[16:37] <daftykins> in fact perhaps if it is SQL express that's where the 20GB limitation comes from...
[16:38] <daftykins> nope 10GB on that
[16:40] <daftykins> right must reboot and install this 10162
[16:41] <daftykins> back in... a while :> despite a core 2 quad and SSD
[16:48] <awilkins> zmoylan-pi, Whut, Office installs MSSQL?!?
[16:49]  * awilkins checks
[16:49] <awilkins> Darn, I installed something else that installs MSSQL
[18:38] <davmor2> diddledan: don't use vi, vi hates you, use vim instead ;)
[18:38] <davmor2> diddledan: if you want to use something more minimal use vim.tiny :)
[18:39] <diddledan> davmor2: yeah vim is what I meant
[18:40]  * daftykins sings "Another One Bites the Dust" :D
[18:40] <daftykins> another dead disk in #ubuntu
[18:41] <davmor2> diddledan: vimcheatsheet.com is nice,  http://www.viemu.com/a_vi_vim_graphical_cheat_sheet_tutorial.html this too, also vimtutor as a refresher is useful :)
[18:48] <diddledan> I need to learn the shortcut keys for "end of word" and "beginning of word"
[18:49] <davmor2> diddledan: e and w or E and W
[19:01] <MartijnVdS> ew
[19:07] <directhex> pfft, vim
[19:14] <davmor2> directhex: why pfft
[19:15] <directhex> it's hard to take seriously when its UI is designed for a computer that hasn't existed for decades
[19:16] <directhex> ie the reason for hjkl is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A#/media/File:KB_Terminal_ADM3A.svg
[19:17] <davmor2> directhex: I like kate too I just don't like installing half of kde to get it , I also like geany, but vim is there on servers and desktop and phones alike so there is only one set of shortcuts to remember :)
[19:40] <ging> will apt-get upgrade --target-rlease trusty-security have the effect of installing only security updates?
[19:40] <ging> (on trusty)
[19:46] <daftykins> Azelphur: there's a query right up your alley in #ubuntu right now ;) guy with 6 screens on 3 hosts used with synergy wants to be able to play media across all of them XD
[19:50] <zmoylan-pi> well if he wants to play x's and o's he'll need 3 more screens :-)
[19:50] <daftykins> XD
[19:50] <diddledan> daftykins: that sounds like something that'll be awkward at best
[19:50] <daftykins> ikr
[19:51] <daftykins> that basically sums up all #ubuntu visitors
[19:51] <daftykins> and #kodi for that matter
[19:51] <daftykins> "here's my ridiculous edge-case, why doesn't this work?"
[19:51] <diddledan> he can start several X11 connections and try xinerama between all of them, but with synergy also that means the mouse will behave like it's on speed
[19:52] <diddledan> really he needs to combine the 6 monitors onto a single system
[19:52] <shauno> he might not still get video that way, since most players use direct rendering
[19:52] <ali1234> you need to use gstreamer
[19:53] <ali1234> it has a special module for synchronizing media across the network
[19:53] <daftykins> i said get a decent single card and run it off a single host, but the language barrier is to blame for why i can't understand the response to that (if there was one)
[19:53] <ali1234> a single card that can control 6 monitors?
[19:55] <daftykins> well, i said likely two
[19:55] <daftykins> but single host either way :P
[19:55] <daftykins> i don't know anyone who's actually used displayport daisy-chaining
[19:55] <daftykins> that probably isn't available with those displays, let alone whether you can do 6 with that
[19:56] <daftykins> nor it work on Linux *cough*
[19:56] <shauno> you only really need one screen to watch your nvidia drivers rebuild on
[19:57] <daftykins> hey hey, the driver hate solely belongs with AMD, not nvidia :P
[19:58] <ali1234> so raid...
[19:58] <ali1234> what repair tools exist?
[19:58] <ali1234> i don't even know what type of raid these drives are from
[19:58] <daftykins> uh oh.
[19:58] <daftykins> throw madam on and plug 'em in? :D
[19:58] <daftykins> biab
[19:59] <ali1234> i can't, they are scsi
[19:59] <ali1234> this is the situation as best as i can understand it:
[19:59] <daftykins> ah
[19:59] <ali1234> new motherboard was ordered. engineer arrived to fit it.
[20:00] <ali1234> engineer didn;t configure the raid properly, wiped raid config from the drives
[20:00] <ali1234> ripped out the power so the data is still there
[20:00] <ali1234> i now have a mystery raid of four disks
[20:00] <ali1234> no idea which disk is which, or what raid level they are
[20:02] <ali1234> i have imaged all four drives
[20:02] <ali1234> what should i start looking at?
[20:05] <shauno> I want to say "backups", but I suspect that isn't going to be helpful
[20:05] <shauno> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33378778   go Iceland!
[20:05] <ali1234> yeah no backups
[20:06] <ali1234> also the system was operating for like a year with the array degraded apparently
[20:07] <ali1234> although all the drives seem to be working fine now
[20:12] <ali1234> hmm well i found some parity data
[20:13] <daftykins> :S
[20:15] <ali1234> next step: figure out the block size
[20:15] <ali1234> http://i.imgur.com/G7lM2Cb.jpg
[20:16] <ali1234> rightmost one is clearly parity... you can tell without even looking at the individual characters
[20:21] <daftykins> 'engineer' doesn't sound too great
[20:21] <diddledan> ali1234: 256Byte?
[20:21] <ali1234> no its not 256 btes
[20:23] <ali1234> it's at the very least 0x2000 bytes
[20:23] <ali1234> i mean the size of the stripped blocks btw
[20:23] <ali1234> *striped
[20:23] <ali1234> not filesystem
[20:23] <diddledan> I was going on the second disk being a repetition of 32*8
[20:23] <ali1234> i'm assuming here it's not just "1 whole disc for parity"
[20:24] <diddledan> that's obviously if I'm counting it right, ofc
[20:26] <ali1234> looks like at least 0x10000
[20:27] <diddledan> that's 1MB?
[20:27] <ali1234> yeah looks like that's it
[20:27] <ali1234> everything seems to switch around after 0x10000
[20:27] <ali1234> need to write some quick tool to confirm that
[20:37] <ali1234> wait a minute
[20:37] <ali1234> you can't tell which one is the parity programmatically :/
[20:37] <ali1234> because any given drive = the xor of the other three
[20:38] <daftykins> not sure if i'm not understanding you correctly, but a single disk can't hold the parity alone since it's spread about no?
[20:38] <daftykins> as in, every disk has parity in a RAID
[20:38] <ali1234> usually yeah
[20:38] <ali1234> it's not a requirement though
[20:38] <ali1234> you could put all the parity on one disk if you wanted to
[20:39] <ali1234> okay so this is making more sense now... some bits of the array have parity errors
[20:39] <ali1234> so my old theory - a disk suddenly came back online in the array with out of date data on it - seems like it might be what's happened here
[20:39] <daftykins> that'd make sense for the degraded status, mmm
[20:40] <ali1234> well it's not saying degraded anywhere
[20:40] <ali1234> the bios doesn't seem to have any raid setup, and the OS won't boot at all
[20:40] <daftykins> the HBA would do that srely
[20:40] <daftykins> *surely
[20:40] <ali1234> what a HBA?
[20:40] <daftykins> host bus adapter
[20:40] <daftykins> so SCSI controller
[20:41] <ali1234> there is a menu for the scsi controller but it does not have any mentions of "raid"
[20:41] <ali1234> it just lets you configure the LUNs etc
[20:41] <ali1234> the scsi controller is supposed to be a hardware raid though
[20:41] <daftykins> hmm, how was it presented? as a keypress on a POST screen?
[20:41] <ali1234> yes
[20:41] <ali1234> ctrl-a
[20:41] <ali1234> maybe if i just unplug one of the drives it will magically work
[20:42] <ali1234> no idea which one but there's only four
[20:42] <daftykins> mmm won't take too long
[20:42] <daftykins> sometimes there's a different keypress to enter the RAID portion than the other i think, but perhaps that one's just software defined RAID
[20:43] <daftykins> knowing the controller / motherboard if integrated / etc might help
[20:43] <ali1234> there is a keypress for something called "utility mode" but it tries to boot a recovery partition which is not accessable because the raid is dead
[20:43] <ali1234> it's a dell poweredge 1600SC
[20:47] <daftykins> yep some posts online state the onboard SCSI controller is non-RAID
[20:47] <ali1234> hmm
[20:47] <ali1234> but this is definitely raid
[20:47] <daftykins> must be software defined
[20:48] <ali1234> the OS is apparently business server 2003
[20:48] <ali1234> they waited right until EOL to upgrade the server, at which point it promptly died the day before
[20:48] <daftykins> heh my mate knows the guy that runs tvcatchup.com - they block us from using it due to geoIP so i'm asking them to change it :D
[20:49] <daftykins> oh Windows, hmm not sure if server 2003 would install with a RAID config - might do
[20:49] <ali1234> well it must have
[20:49] <daftykins> unless the disks were just glued together by some ugly 'dynamic' setup to pool their capacity together
[20:49] <ali1234> there is clearly parity and the data is striped...
[20:50] <ali1234> i don't understand why it wont boot... i just don't get it
[20:50] <ali1234> maybe the software raid knows the array is messed up so just refuses
[20:53] <ali1234> the other weird thing is that the array has a dos partition table
[20:54] <ali1234> it's on the first drive in the usual place, but of course it shows partitions which are too big for the drive
[20:54] <ali1234> i dont see how that could ever work unless there was a hardware raid to hide the physical disks from the bios
[20:54] <daftykins> does it equal two disks glued together in a single volume, then perhaps that is RAID-1'd to the other pair?
[20:54] <ali1234> i dunno let me check the details
[20:57] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11817416/
[20:57] <ali1234> "Dell Utility" - can't be just coincidence
[20:58] <ali1234> so 21Gb system drive, then a 188GB data drive, matches with what the owner told me about "E: for data"
[20:58] <daftykins> mmhmm
[20:58] <ali1234> the array is four 70GB drives, logical size seems to be 210GB... checks out
[20:59] <daftykins> indeed! so a soft RAID5 of some kind
[21:00] <ali1234> yeah but... given the partition table... how could a soft raid ever boot?
[21:02] <daftykins> that is confusing
[21:03] <ali1234> maybe it's 32MB striped and the dell utility boots it... no because that's not set bootable...
[21:03] <ali1234> maybe the old motherboard and the new motherboard are different!
[21:04] <daftykins> could well be, though SCSI onboard in lots of Dell servers tended to lack the RAID portion i thought
[21:04] <ali1234> maybe they couldn't get the right one... so they got one with software raid... and now it doesn't work
[21:04] <daftykins> you'd get the RAID through a PERC controller card
[21:04] <daftykins> looks like server2003 KBs state boot + OS files can't be in a software RAID5
[21:04] <ali1234> hmm there is a second card in this thing
[21:04] <ali1234> it has a scsi tape drive connected to it
[21:04] <ali1234> nothing else
[21:05] <ali1234> but it's the same connector as the motherboard scsi
[21:05] <ali1234> maybe that's the problem
[21:05] <ali1234> plugged the connectors in wrong way around?
[21:05] <daftykins> yeah that could definitely be plausible
[21:05] <ali1234> >_<
[21:05] <diddledan> I just broke my mac and fixed it again
[21:06] <shauno> the tape into the raid controller?
[21:06] <diddledan> it refused to let me login - seems I somehow fubard my pam.d
[21:06] <ali1234> the tape is connected to a separate SCSI card yes
[21:07] <shauno> does that card have a slot for a stick of ram?
[21:07] <ali1234> maybe... it has a weird daughterboard on it
[21:07] <ali1234> and it has a bunch of RAM on it too
[21:08] <ali1234> "PCBX520"
[21:08] <ali1234> Dell PERC 4/SC apparently
[21:08] <shauno> that's normally the giveaway for raid cards.  a good chunk of cache and/or battery
[21:08] <directhex> PERC is rebadged LSI megaraid
[21:08] <daftykins> ali1234: there you go, the PERC is the RAID HBA from Dell
[21:09] <daftykins> sounds like they've been mixed up
[21:09] <daftykins> swap the SCSI chains and Bob's your mother's brother?
[21:09] <ali1234> hmm
[21:09] <ali1234> still leaves the parity errors
[21:09] <daftykins> that could be the degraded angle
[21:09] <ali1234> hmmmm
[21:10] <daftykins> i take it you're not in the office to swap the cables yourself? :)
[21:10] <ali1234> i have the system right next to me actually
[21:10] <daftykins> ah-har
[21:10] <ali1234> it's loud
[21:10] <ali1234> and hot
[21:10] <daftykins> how many U?
[21:10] <ali1234> it;s a full tower case
[21:10] <daftykins> ah
[21:10] <shauno> and angry ;)
[21:10] <ali1234> and a massive one at that
[21:11] <shauno> I miss pedestal towers (instead of desktop towers)
[21:12] <zmoylan-pi> because sometimese you want to have 12 drives in one system :-)
[21:13] <daftykins> absolutely
[21:13] <shauno> sometimes a 386 really is a good substitute for a missing table leg
[21:14] <daftykins> i suspect that's what's in your kitchen neighbouring the fixed oven wall socket, shauno :)
[21:14] <shauno> nah, I left that behind several houses ago
[21:15] <daftykins> aww
[21:18] <shauno> well, when I moved to the US I only took a suitcase.  it was 2002.  my 386, no matter how much I loved the case, didn't make the cut :p
[21:19] <daftykins> :D
[21:19] <shauno> (what did make the cut was pretty fun though.  my carryon was mostly harddrives because I didn't trust the baggage handlers)
[21:20] <zmoylan-pi> in 2002 the power brick with the 386 probably wouldn't have worked in usa?
[21:21] <shauno> sure, just throw the little switch on the back
[21:22] <daftykins> i remember a mate from school bought a system from Canada and didn't know about said switch
[21:22] <daftykins> so *pop* it went
[21:22] <shauno> yeah.  that tiny little switch was probably one of the most critical on the system  lol
[21:23] <zmoylan-pi> in 80s and 90s we had many a customer who flipped that switch on back of pcs to see what it did
[21:23] <daftykins> ugh
[21:23] <daftykins> when i taught IT for a bit, one of the kids did it as a 'fault finding' exercise for a class mate
[21:23] <daftykins> i told them off about that one :P
[21:24] <daftykins> sweet, i just got the tvcatchup.com service owner to unblock Guernsey ISPs \o/
[21:28] <ali1234> okay now were getting somewhere
[21:28] <ali1234> i'm in the PERC utility now
[21:29] <ali1234> it's actually doing something
[21:29] <daftykins> excellent :)
[21:29] <daftykins> yeah that should show your config + status a lot better
[21:29] <ali1234> although still not actually working
[21:30] <shauno> can I assume you already dumped the disks somewhere?
[21:30] <ali1234> yes
[21:30] <daftykins> he did, image files up above
[21:30] <daftykins> in the pastebin
[21:30] <shauno> just checking :)  my limited experience with raid setups is that once the controller decides what to do next, it's a one-way street
[21:31] <ali1234> that is apparently what already happened
[21:31] <ali1234> but it was delivered to me with the drives on the onboard non-raid controller
[21:31] <ali1234> so i don't know exactly what the guy did
[21:31] <daftykins> someone had a stab already?
[21:32] <ali1234> yeah the "engineer"
[21:32] <shauno> it sounds like someone just pulled a mad panic when it didn't come back up
[21:32] <daftykins> ah
[21:32] <daftykins> hehe yeah
[21:32] <daftykins> all for not having labelled the cards + cables
[21:32] <daftykins> what an amateur job =|
[21:32] <ali1234> it says "reading configuration..."
[21:33] <daftykins> inside the PERC BIOS?
[21:33] <ali1234> yeah... said that for like 5 minutes now
[21:33] <daftykins> hmm, disk activity?
[21:33] <ali1234> hard to say. there's no lights and this thing is so loud you can't hear any head activity
[21:34] <zmoylan-pi> out hand on unit and see if you can feel the heads shifting
[21:34] <zmoylan-pi> *put
[21:34] <ali1234> i would say.... yes
[21:34] <daftykins> mmm see how she goes
[21:35] <zmoylan-pi> go make tea to resist temptation to do something and interfere with it...
[21:35] <ali1234> it just made a bad noise :(
[21:35] <ali1234> i think it was the fan though
[21:36] <shauno> if you have an audience, don't walk off and make tea.  keep your hands on the disk, close your eyes and hum.  if it boots you'll blow their fragile little minds.
[21:37] <zmoylan-pi> it's 2236.  if he has an audience something is wrong
[21:37] <ali1234> who said 0x10000 is 1MB? lol
[21:38] <shauno> he's up to his elbows in scsi disks that should have been smelted 10 years ago.  we've already established something's wrong.
[21:38] <ali1234> it's 64KB which also happens to be the default stripe size for PERC according to what I just read
[21:39] <ali1234> at this point it should be easy enough to restore from my images anyway
[21:39] <diddledan> I wonder what data I have tucked away on my old raid array that I haven't had running in over 5 years
[21:39] <ali1234> just need to figure out which is the "bad" drive
[21:40] <ali1234> still readng configuration :/
[21:40] <daftykins> i'd expect the PERC BIOS to be able to determine that once it's done with its' little dance
[21:42] <daftykins> diddledan: :D i've got a set of 6 disks unplugged from my HBA right now
[21:42] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/tq881q5pxht0uuz/disks_.jpg?dl=0
[21:42] <daftykins> that sucker
[21:43] <ali1234> well there's only four possible choices
[21:43] <ali1234> i can generate 4 images and see which one is a valid filesystemm...
[21:43] <diddledan> daftykins: my array is an ancient ANCIENT compaq ultrascsi thingy
[21:43] <daftykins> eww!
[21:44] <diddledan> it's got about 40G total
[21:44] <daftykins> RDP into a box... "what was i going to do?" :(
[21:44] <daftykins> oh yeah check temps
[21:44] <zmoylan-pi> wow i have thumbdrives bigger than that now
[22:07] <aCilnv> join drobo
[22:07] <daftykins> any of you that were playing with VPNs of late, did you take any notes or write any guides?
[22:09] <daftykins> ah nm digitalocean have one 8D
[22:09] <ali1234> well this thing still says reading configuration
[22:10] <ali1234> the numlock key has also started acting weird, i think it's crashed
[22:11] <daftykins> wouldn't hurt to ctrl+alt+del and try re-entering
[22:11] <ali1234> does nothing
[22:13] <daftykins> ah not a good sign
[22:14] <ali1234> reset it, i;m in now
[22:15] <ali1234> ah here we go... one disk is marked as fail
[22:15] <daftykins> \o/
[22:15] <ali1234> but... two disks are marked as fail in nvram config
[22:18] <daftykins> does it refer to it being a RAID5 unit?
[22:18] <ali1234> yes
[22:19] <shauno> I think I'd prioritize getting a good backup off it
[22:19] <ali1234> how tho?
[22:19] <ali1234> i can force one of the drives back online...
[22:20] <ali1234> i don't think there are any serious problems with the disks
[22:20] <ali1234> one has 1 media error and 2 other
[22:20] <ali1234> the other one just has one other error
[22:21] <daftykins> i'd force online and mount, sounds minor
[22:21] <daftykins> wouldn't try booting though, i'd throw in some Loonix media and try pinching the data volume, if that's all you need
[22:22] <ali1234> okay logical drive state is now DEGRADED
[22:22] <ali1234> will try to boot mah lunix
[22:25] <ali1234> looks like it worked
[22:28] <daftykins> :D
[22:28] <daftykins> clean NTFS mount eh?
[22:31] <ali1234> didn;t try mounting yet... imaging the drive with netcat first
[22:32] <daftykins> ah ok
[22:32] <daftykins> good call
[22:37] <ali1234> gonna take hours :(
[22:40] <zmoylan-pi> tune in later when you'll hear ali1234 say. 'flip is it monday already...?' :-P
[22:41] <ali1234> it should only take about 3 hours
[22:41] <ali1234> it has gigabit ethernet but my PC only has USB2 for the drive i am imaging to
[22:42] <ali1234> after this is done i'll probably just try to boot it up
[22:42] <ali1234> if tht works this thing is going back tomorrow
[22:44] <diddledan> I hate pressed-steel
[22:44] <diddledan> I split my knuckle open messsing with this old proliant
[22:44] <ali1234> i hate that too
[22:44] <ali1234> this monster seems to at least have no sharp edges
[22:44] <diddledan> luckt get
[22:44] <diddledan> lucky*
[22:45] <ali1234> weighs a tonne though, it's literally too heavy for me to pick it up
[22:45] <diddledan> seems the innargs of proliants are pure evil
[22:45] <diddledan> innards*
[22:45] <diddledan> this is proliant from compaq era
[22:45] <diddledan> 1600R if memory serves?
[22:45] <ali1234> i found you get what you pay for
[22:45] <ali1234> everyone makes good and bad, cases no exception
[22:47] <diddledan> one of these jobbies: https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server900/b18w/products/20144/images/44002/Proliant_1600R_Front__10454.1410158095.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
[22:47] <diddledan> and yes, it weighs a tonne
[22:47] <ali1234> ugh
[22:48] <diddledan> I think it's 4U?
[22:48] <diddledan> might even be pushing 5
[22:49] <ali1234> yeah
[22:49] <ali1234> 6 even
[22:49] <ali1234> 1U isn't much taller than a hard drive
[22:49] <diddledan> that's a good point - there's 6 drives in that lil cage
[22:49] <ali1234> yeah
[22:50] <shauno> "lil"
[22:50] <diddledan> shush you
[22:50] <diddledan> compared to me, it's lil :-p
[22:50] <diddledan> but then most things compared to me are lil
[23:17] <diddledan> I think russia are invading
[23:17] <diddledan> there's nothing on the news about it tho
[23:17] <diddledan> either that or there's a lightning storm in the distance
[23:18] <daftykins> well that's cool, i've just got OpenVPN going between my Windows desktop and a digitalocean droplet in London
[23:18] <diddledan> \o/
[23:19] <daftykins> good documentation on their site
[23:33] <diddledan> this makes no sense to me: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Diskless_nodes#Before_you_get_started
[23:33] <diddledan> i.e. WHY do they think the interface needs multicast?
[23:34] <diddledan> dhcp is most definitely NOT a multicast protocol
[23:39] <diddledan> hmm seems the author wants readers to configure the esoteric and unknown "MTFTP" protocol for network transfers of files
[23:41] <shauno> that is a weird mes
[23:51] <daftykins> ace, now i got the phone on it
[23:51] <daftykins> mapp: you'd be jelly
[23:53] <ali1234> i just bought a new phone
[23:53] <ali1234> £50 for a quad core 1.2GHz with 1GB ram
[23:54] <ali1234> and another £12 for a 32GB microsd
[23:54] <ali1234> ridiculous


[01:25] <thumper> oh poo
[01:26] <thumper> wanting to add something to a worker manifold, but it just defines itself as a copy of engine.AgentApiManifoldConfig
[01:26]  * thumper sighs
[01:26]  * thumper unpicks
[01:26] <thumper> perhaps after a dog walk
[03:16] <mup> Bug #1271744 changed: bootstrap on maas with --metadata-source fails <bootstrap> <maas> <maas-provider> <simplestreams> <upload-tools> <juju-core:Triaged by anastasia-macmood> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1271744>
[03:16] <mup> Bug #1567763 changed: bootstrapping private openstack, with --metadata-source fails when instance-type constraint is specified <bootstrap> <constraints> <simplestreams> <juju-core:In Progress by anastasia-macmood> <juju-core 1.25:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1567763>
[03:20] <thumper> bugger
[03:20] <thumper> clean up a test and now it fails
[03:20]  * thumper reverts
[03:29] <menn0> axw: the more I think about it, the more I think your approach for those flaky MachineSuite tests is the right thing to do for now
[03:29] <menn0> axw: i'll give it a try soon
[03:29] <axw> menn0: cool
[03:33] <thumper> fark
[03:54] <menn0> thumper: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/5342/
[04:22] <mup> Bug #1588115 changed: json: cannot unmarshal string into Go value of type nova.jsonEntity <bootstrap> <juju> <juju-core:Expired> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588115>
[05:35] <menn0> thumper: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/5343/
[08:26] <rogpeppe> axw: ping
[08:26] <axw> rogpeppe: pong
[08:26] <rogpeppe> axw: yo!
[08:26] <axw> howdy
[08:26] <rogpeppe> axw: is it a bug or a feature that credentials can't be updated or deleted?
[08:27] <axw> rogpeppe: bug
[08:27] <rogpeppe> axw: ok, thought so, just checking
[08:27] <axw> rogpeppe: working on the foundations of updating them still
[08:27] <rogpeppe> axw: (if you try to update an existing credential, you get a "state changing too quickly" error)
[08:27] <rogpeppe> axw: (not the most informative error in the world :] )
[08:28] <axw> rogpeppe: oh, well that's a different type of bug :)   I just meant that we don't react to changes at the moment
[08:28] <axw> I guess we're assuming they don't exist at the moment
[08:28] <rogpeppe> axw: yeah, so there's no way for us to change them
[08:29] <rogpeppe> axw: i was wondering if immutability was by design
[08:29] <rogpeppe> axw: but it seems not :)
[08:29] <rogpeppe> axw: i think it should make an update txn if the doc already exists
[08:30] <axw> rogpeppe: yep. not set in stone, but at the moment we don't assume immutability. there's no documented workflows for updating creds, but I don't see any problem with updating existing ones
[08:31] <rogpeppe> axw: i think that perhaps it's a mistake for the transaction Run method to *always* return "state changing too quickly" if the transaction fails
[08:31] <rogpeppe> axw: whether that's appropriate surely depends on whether the transaction is designed to work in all cases
[08:32] <axw> rogpeppe: it should always be valid, except if the transaction asserts are wrong?
[08:32] <axw> (which seems to be the case here)
[08:33] <rogpeppe> axw: well, there might well be operations which are designed to fail in certain cases (for example, a Remove operation might fail because the doc doesn't exist)
[08:34] <rogpeppe> axw: or it might well be legitimate to have an operation that is supposed to fail if the doc already exists (insert vs update)
[08:35] <axw> rogpeppe: sure, but you check that at the top of the transaction loop. if it doesn't exist, you return errors.NotExistsf. otherwise you assume it's there, but add an assert; the failure causes the loop to restart
[08:36] <axw> you only get the "state changing too quickly" error if what you're chekcing at the top of the loop doesn't match what's in the assert, or if it really is happening too quickly
[08:36] <axw> changing*
[08:36] <rogpeppe> axw: that implies even more unnecessary round trips
[08:36] <rogpeppe> axw: but i guess that's par for the course
[08:36] <axw> rogpeppe: you don't *have* to use the transaction loop
[08:36] <axw> rogpeppe: this error only occurs when you do
[08:37] <rogpeppe> axw: you don't have to use the transaction loop? i thought that was the only way to run transactions these days.
[08:38] <axw> rogpeppe: state.State.runTransaction doesn't use a loop
[08:38] <axw> rogpeppe: state.State.run does
[08:40] <rogpeppe> axw: ah, i didn't know about runTransaction or the distinction between that and run
[08:41] <rogpeppe> axw: not great naming tbh - i think that Run should probably be named something that implies it will loop
[08:41] <axw> rogpeppe: agreed on that
[08:55] <rogpeppe> axw: just reported these bugs:
[08:55] <rogpeppe> axw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1608421
[08:55] <mup> Bug #1608421: UpdateCloudCredentials should be able to change existing credential <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608421>
[08:55] <rogpeppe> axw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1608422
[08:55] <mup> Bug #1608422: it is not possible to remove cloud credentials <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608422>
[08:55] <axw> rogpeppe: thanks
[08:56] <rogpeppe> axw: you're planning to fix these, right? (if not, we can probably do some work on it)
[08:56] <axw> rogpeppe: eventually yes, but I don't know when I will get to them
[08:56] <rogpeppe> axw: ok
[09:02] <mup> Bug #1608421 opened: UpdateCloudCredentials should be able to change existing credential <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608421>
[09:02] <mup> Bug #1608422 opened: it is not possible to remove cloud credentials <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608422>
[09:05] <mup> Bug #1608421 changed: UpdateCloudCredentials should be able to change existing credential <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608421>
[09:05] <mup> Bug #1608422 changed: it is not possible to remove cloud credentials <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608422>
[09:08] <mup> Bug #1608421 opened: UpdateCloudCredentials should be able to change existing credential <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608421>
[09:08] <mup> Bug #1608422 opened: it is not possible to remove cloud credentials <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608422>
[09:12] <rogpeppe> axw: is it my imagination, or are there no tests at all for the State.UpdateCloudCredentials method?
[09:19] <axw> rogpeppe: indeed, that one slipped through
[09:20] <rogpeppe> axw: i'm doing a coverage test on state now :)
[11:25] <fwereade> huh, irc wasn't open
[11:25] <fwereade> anastasiamac, can we chat about supported architectures?
[11:31] <anastasiamac> fwereade: yes we can :)
[11:32] <fwereade> anastasiamac, tell me if I get any of the following statements wrong
[11:32] <anastasiamac> fwereade: k
[11:32] <rogpeppe> axw: as a followup to the UpdateCloudCredentials thing, there are a few other methods that could do with tests in state... https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1608494
[11:32] <mup> Bug #1608494: state: not all public methods are tested <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608494>
[11:33] <fwereade> anastasiamac, *in general*, bootstrapping with local image metadata will cause the image metadata to be uploaded and put in the database and made accessible to all environ instances created on the controller
[11:34] <anastasiamac> fwereade: right (when database is present and we have a connection to it)
[11:34] <fwereade> anastasiamac, there is a window of badness that affects *only* the environ instance that's actually bootstrapping the controller
[11:36] <anastasiamac> fwereade: kind of... i have a gut feeling that the "window of badness" has a flow on affect. If it's fixed the flow-on effect *may* be fixed too
[11:36] <fwereade> anastasiamac, that problematic environ instance is running on the same machine as the one that got the image metadata in the first place
[11:36] <fwereade> anastasiamac, (I'm pretty sure that agents won't get env config except via an api conn? or at least via the database)
[11:37] <anastasiamac> fwereade: i *think* it maybe that environ instance *has access* to the machine that has image metadata
[11:39] <anastasiamac> fwereade: well, metadata has several data soureces - database is one of thethem and we hope is the main one - but ther are also url and file data sources..
[11:39] <fwereade> anastasiamac, I don't understand the follow-on effect
[11:40] <fwereade> anastasiamac, well, sure, but I don't think we need to care what the data sources are -- we just need to care that they *match*
[11:40] <anastasiamac> fwereade: so I ahve seen bugs where private clouds (or no intrnet env) can bootstrap using --metadtaa-url (= web served data) not metadata source (= file locations)
[11:40] <anastasiamac> fwereade: but had troubles deploying workload
[11:40] <anastasiamac> fwereade: right about the match
[11:41] <anastasiamac> fwereade: so form what i've seen, the "badness" occurs before stat is open where we select tools and get custom metadata from locally accessible location
[11:42] <anastasiamac> fwereade: we detemrine supported architectures from declared data sources (which we have not declared yet) and are ignoring bootstrap custom metadata
[11:42] <fwereade> anastasiamac, so, the local stuff is not a properly configured data source for the environ? shouldn't it be?
[11:43] <anastasiamac> fwereade: when we get it, we do not have environ yet
[11:43] <anastasiamac> fwereade: we pass it into startinstance as params
[11:43] <fwereade> anastasiamac, all the more reason to create the environ knowing what data source it should use
[11:43] <anastasiamac> fwereade: data source is created
[11:43] <anastasiamac> fwereade: but data source is just the location to look at
[11:44] <anastasiamac> fwereade: what we need here is a collection of actual values
[11:44] <anastasiamac> fwereade: since we do not have anywhere to put them et. we can only pass them around
[11:44] <anastasiamac> fwereade: i *think* :)
[11:44] <fwereade> anastasiamac, the data source is an abstraction allowing us to get those values, isn't it?
[11:44] <fwereade> anastasiamac, how does an environ know SupportedArchitectures if not by looking at what some datasource provides?
[11:45] <anastasiamac> fwereade: yes, and as soon as we get a chance we put them in db :)
[11:45] <anastasiamac> fwereade: suppoted architectures does not look i db at this stage anyway.. it's somethign that needs to happen but has not yet
[11:45] <anastasiamac> fwereade: putting this custom metadata into db will not help
[11:45] <fwereade> anastasiamac, well, the provider should pretty much never be looking in the db, tbh
[11:46] <fwereade> anastasiamac, I'm not suggesting we should
[11:46] <anastasiamac> fwereade: becasue we only obtain it and use it before db is started
[11:46] <fwereade> anastasiamac, right
[11:46] <anastasiamac> fwereade: \o/
[11:46] <fwereade> anastasiamac, I'm saying that the environ we use to bootstrap is misconfigured if it's using a different data source to the one specified
[11:47] <fwereade> anastasiamac, (and that a local source needs to be uploaded and put in the db to be accessible later, but it sounds like that all works correctly anyway)
[11:47] <anastasiamac> fwereade:db upload works exactly as expected :)
[11:48] <anastasiamac> fwereade: peerfectly :)
[11:48] <fwereade> anastasiamac, (and also cautioning you against imagining that an environ ever "should" look in the db, that may be the ultimate source of the data but db concerns belong nowhere near environs)
[11:48] <fwereade> anastasiamac, cool
[11:48] <fwereade> anastasiamac, I'm sorta implicitly dismissing the follow-on concerns then
[11:49] <anastasiamac> fwereade: even better for me then :)
[11:49] <fwereade> anastasiamac, I can see an easy way to bootstrap and not be able to deploy, if you use a metadata url that's accessible to the client but not the controller
[11:49] <fwereade> anastasiamac, and that is sorta a Don't Do That Then situation
[11:50] <fwereade> anastasiamac, and it sounds like the upload of local metadata is also fine, so managing to bootstrap should imply we can deploy anything covered by that local metadata
[11:50] <fwereade> anastasiamac, remind me how data sources *are* associated with an environ?
[11:50] <mup> Bug #1608494 opened: state: not all public methods are tested <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608494>
[11:50] <anastasiamac> fwereade: this specific fix does not deal with URL served metadata - this works. Metadat-source is a file location
[11:51] <anastasiamac> fwereade: metadata-url vs metadata-source
[11:52] <fwereade> anastasiamac, yeah -- and it really seems like there's *one* environ, that we're trying to bootstrap, which will fail if it doesn't have proper access to the local metadata
[11:52] <fwereade> anastasiamac, am I missing something? or am I pointing at the central problem
[11:52] <anastasiamac> fwereade: right. of course with my changes, i managed to bootstrap :)
[11:56] <rick_h_> morning
[13:33] <mup> Bug #1608527 opened: lxd bootstrap now slow, timing out, fails <canonical-is> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608527>
[13:45] <mup> Bug #1608527 changed: lxd bootstrap now slow, timing out, fails <canonical-is> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608527>
[13:45] <mup> Bug #1608528 opened: machineSuite.TestShortPollIntervalWhenNoStatus timing problem: expect 2, obtained 2 <ci> <intermittent-failure> <regression> <unit-tests> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608528>
[13:45] <mup> Bug #1608529 opened: suprious 'd' in log output during lxd bootstrap <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608529>
[13:45] <mup> Bug #1608533 opened: Race in github.com/juju/juju/apiserver/tools_test <ci> <race-condition> <regression> <unit-tests> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608533>
[15:01] <perrito666> will be back later
[15:58] <natefinch> ug, taxes on part of my property went up by 54% since last year :/  Luckily, it's the smaller of the two parcels, but it still means over $200 a month extra I'm paying... except that it's doubled by my mortgage company this year to put extra in escrow :/
[16:15] <mup> Bug #1608597 opened: CalledProcessError for juju-2.0 deploy -m slaveX:default deployment_file <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608597>
[16:27] <mup> Bug #1608597 changed: CalledProcessError for juju-2.0 deploy -m slaveX:default deployment_file <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608597>
[16:33] <mup> Bug #1608597 opened: CalledProcessError for juju-2.0 deploy -m slaveX:default deployment_file <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608597>
[16:43] <perrito666> natefinch: I understood very little of that
[16:44] <perrito666> you can move to argentina, 200 dollars is about 1/3 of my yearly tax
[16:45] <natefinch> perrito666: the property that my house is on is in two towns... one of the towns decided that the piece of land I own in their town is worth twice as much this year as was worth last year.
[16:45] <perrito666> ah, I see, we have a much more strict definition of town
[17:02]  * rick_h_ goes for lunchables
[17:03] <natefinch> rick_h_: you should really find something less processed than lunchables. Those things are terrible.
[17:26] <rick_h_> natefinch: just my way of saying 'food for lunch'
[17:26] <rick_h_> leftover blue apron meal today
[17:26] <natefinch> rick_h_: I know, just giving you a hard time :)
[17:27] <natefinch> rick_h_: I had leftover thai food :)
[17:31] <perrito666> I had .... too hard to translate, dry tomatoes, some greens, mozzarela and ham on ciabatta with a flavoured cream :p
[17:31] <perrito666> lunch caught me off my house, otherwise it would be way less pretentious
[17:48] <natefinch> perrito666: sounds tasty
[17:49] <natefinch> also, verdict on the taxes: evidently the town did a review, and realized they'd been taxing us at the residential rate, but that piece of land is in a commercial zone, which is a lot more expensive.  sigh.
[18:00] <alexisb> natefinch, 54% is crazy in one year
[18:00] <alexisb> I would have something to say about that
[18:01] <natefinch> alexisb: well, the land *is* in a commercial zone, I knew that when we moved in.  So, basically we've been getting a 33% discount for the last 6 years :/
[18:14] <hatch> when attempting to build Juju from master it is hanging on cmd/jujud has anyone ever run into this before?
[18:22] <natefinch> hatch: nope.
[18:22] <natefinch> hatch: when's the last time you did a successful build?
[18:22] <hatch> natefinch: on this machine, never
[18:22] <hatch> fresh install
[18:22] <natefinch> hatch: hm.. suspicious
[18:22] <hatch> Go 1.6.3
[18:23] <natefinch> hatch: are you using the makefile or running go install manually?
[18:23] <hatch> I was running `go install -v ./...`
[18:23] <natefinch> *nod* did you run godeps first?
[18:23] <hatch> yep
[18:23] <natefinch> I got nuthin.
[18:24] <hatch> maybe Juju doesn't build with 1.6.3?
[18:25] <natefinch> I can try it locally.... I was using 1.6.2, can try 1.6.3 easy enough
[18:25] <hatch> I've just deleted everything and it's rebuilding
[18:26] <hatch> will see if it hangs
[18:26] <hatch> yup hung again on jujud
[18:27] <hatch> I'll try downgrading to 1.6.2
[18:30] <hatch> natefinch: fwiw 1.6.2 also hangs
[18:31] <rick_h_> natefinch: ping for meeting
[18:32] <natefinch> rick_h_: oops, thanks, coming
[18:32] <natefinch> hatch: building now... probably something weird with the machine you're building with
[18:33] <hatch> natefinch: yeah, I am just not sure how I go about debugging it as there isn't any output
[18:33] <hatch> natefinch: go build also hangs
[18:34] <hatch> as expected I suppose
[19:21]  * rick_h_ goes to get boy from camp biab
[20:15] <rick_h_> katco: can you add some step by step QA docs to https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/5906 please and once there natefinch can you please look at and review and validate QA please?
[20:16] <natefinch> rick_h_: sure thing
[20:16] <katco> rick_h_: pointer to step-by-step instructions are in the review's "testing" section
[20:16] <rick_h_> katco: ah, sorry. I got an email on the PR but didn't see anything to the RB
[20:28] <rick_h_> natefinch: also please mark https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1604474 fix comitted
[20:28] <mup> Bug #1604474: Juju 2.0-beta12  userdata execution fails on Windows <azure-provider> <ci> <juju2.0> <oil> <oil-2.0> <regression> <windows> <juju-core:In Progress by natefinch> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1604474>
[20:28] <natefinch> rick_h_: done
[20:29] <rick_h_> ty
[20:31] <rick_h_> katco: while your branch is up for review can you peek at https://canonical.leankit.com/Boards/View/122969419/123586962 please?
[20:31] <rick_h_> katco: looks like it just didn't get landed due to conflicts that maybe you could resolve/get it landed?
[20:31] <rick_h_> katco: as a quick win for the b14
[20:32] <katco> rick_h_: it looks like it doesn't have a ship it
[20:32] <rick_h_> katco: oh nvm, reviews say needs lots of love. More than just conflicts.
[20:33]  * rick_h_ follows bug to pr to RB to ... :)
[20:33] <katco> hehe
[20:47] <natefinch> man, the github CLI helper, hub, really makes testing other people's branches easy.  I can just hub checkout https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/5906  and run the code from a PR.
[20:58] <rick_h_> natefinch: <3 if you find a good pattern write it up please. I was using my old tricks from before with custom git aliases
[20:58] <rick_h_> natefinch: making it easier/faster to qa-prs is <3
[21:02] <rick_h_> natefinch: https://github.com/juju/docs/blob/adc36a78430d84f5c6ab05b271eb3b700768ba40/README.md#using-git-aliases is what we used to use
[21:04] <natefinch> katco, rick_h_: ran out of time to test that PR.  I have it all deployed.. but hit a weird situation while removing and re-adding.  Will continue looking at it after the kids are in bed
[21:04] <mup> Bug #1608677 opened: Remove filesystem cache for charm archives <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608677>
[21:04] <rick_h_> natefinch-afk: ty, have a good evening
[21:26] <bdx> hey whats up guys?
[21:27] <bdx> I'm having some issues with network spaces on aws ... I guess I'll write the list ... thought I would check here first
[21:29] <bdx> I have successfully bootstrapped into my aws vpc using `juju bootstrap mycloud aws --credential mycred --config vpc-id=my-vpcid --config force-vpc-id='true' --upload-tools`
[21:30] <bdx> and subsequently created a model on my aws controller in the vpc with `juju add-model my-new-model -credential mycred --config vpc-id=my-vpcid --config force-vpc-id='true'`
[21:31] <bdx> following which, I add a network space, and then my subnet
[21:32] <bdx> http://paste.ubuntu.com/21814798/
[21:34] <bdx> ok, everything looks great so far .... then I go and launch an instance and it all falls apart -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/21815678/
[21:34] <bdx> any ideas?
[21:46] <bdx> sent to the list
[22:47] <mup> Bug #1608723 opened: "juju test" command needs updating for juju 2.0 <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1608723>
[22:57] <menn0> thumper: o/ http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/5346/
[22:57] <menn0> this makes that flaky MachineSuite test fail reliably as well as cleaning up a bunch of other stuff
[22:58]  * thumper looks
[23:01] <thumper> shipit
[23:13] <rick_h_> bdx: can you confirm the rest of the story there? Did the bootstrap instance start on the right vpc you asked it to?
[23:13] <rick_h_> bdx: from the list it seems like you asked it to do the right thing, but I'm curious if juju did all the right things with the vpc for the controller, machines for the units deployed, etc.
[23:43] <perrito666> thumper: point me to your review
[23:59] <perrito666> thumper: the liiiiiiink
[23:59] <thumper> http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/5345/


[06:07] <abogani> It sounds cool
[07:33]  * falktx is creating a live-dvd US image
[07:33] <falktx> hey there
[07:38] <falktx> i see the new downloads, cool
[08:48] <falktx> US image works!
[08:48] <falktx> live-dvd!!
[08:48] <knome> :)
[09:36] <abogani> falktx: Great!
[11:58] <holstein> fr-z: sure
[11:59] <holstein> welcome
[11:59] <fr-z> hi :)
[12:00] <holstein> also, helping in the IRC channel/forums
[12:05] <fr-z> sure i will give my best :)
[12:05] <fr-z> do you use xchat?
[12:07] <holstein> im using irssi running in screen
[12:07] <holstein> xchat is nice
[12:18] <fr-z> i am trying to setup this so it performs the commands to identify and join channels auto. It seams to be on a file
[12:19] <holstein> prolly, i have just done it from the GUI like http://xchat.org/faq/#q23
[12:20] <holstein> irssi autojoins from a file i made
[12:34] <fr-z> any reason why you use urssi instead of xchat?
[12:35] <holstein> sure
[12:35] <holstein> it runs in the console
[12:35] <holstein> i can run it in screen on my server, and connect back in with ssh
[12:36] <holstein> i just leave it running and connect back in from where ever i want
[12:37] <fr-z> ahh like a bnc
[12:38] <holstein> bnc?
[12:49] <scott-work> hi fr-z and holstein  :)
[12:49] <scott-work> holstein: can we talk a bit at your leisure about 12.04 and what we want?
[12:52] <TheMuso> scott-work: Great to hear you are going to UDS, looking forward to meeting you.
[13:07] <scott-work> thank you TheMuso , i am looking forward as well :)
[13:08] <scott-work> although i feel that i have some substantial work ahead of me for the next release given the arguable failure or deficencies of 11.10 :(
[13:44] <fr-z> sorry holstein went for a lunch break ^^ a bnc is a kind of an irc bot/server that you have running on a server. Then when you login you make it to your server and not to the global server. That way you are online 24/7 and you connect to the bot anytime you want
[13:44] <holstein> interesting... yeah, its something like that then
[13:44] <holstein> i have a bot running on this server too in screen
[13:46] <fr-z> true
[13:46] <fr-z> thats cool
[13:47] <fr-z> here you have a list of bounces. that way we can use any irc client
[13:47] <fr-z> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNC_%28software%29
[13:48] <fr-z> lol
[13:48] <fr-z> one of them its yours ^
[13:48] <fr-z> :)
[13:48] <fr-z> hi scott-work i was afk
[16:29] <sd_ubuntu___> Hi!
[16:30] <fr-z> Hi m8
[16:30] <sd_ubuntu___> :-)
[16:31] <sd_ubuntu___> Could I help u in your work?
[16:34] <sd_ubuntu___> Hi! I'm new at ubuntu community and I'd like to give my contribute. Holstein (now I seem its not here) invited me for give an help here. Is there some work that I could start now with you?
[16:36] <fr-z> have you made your registration already on the links i sent you earlier?
[16:36] <sd_ubuntu___> yes, in development
[16:38] <fr-z> nice
[16:39] <fr-z> i think that after you confirm your mail youl start to recieve things
[16:42] <sd_ubuntu___> ah, ok.... thank u! :-)
[16:42] <sd_ubuntu___> so, i wait
[16:42] <sd_ubuntu___> now i have to go
[16:42] <sd_ubuntu___> see u soon!!
[17:58] <scott-work> bah, webchat.freenode.net dropped me again
[18:15] <fr-z> ^^
[18:16] <fr-z> any team manager online?
[18:17] <scott-work> fr-z: yes, i'm here
[18:19] <fr-z> hi scott how are you. i already subscribed to the devel list. but how can i see on what you need help? I can help designing and concept usability Interfaces (if you need ofc).
[18:25] <scott-work> fr-z: let me find a link
[18:25] <fr-z> thank you
[18:26] <scott-work> this is what i had started but i hadn't done much on it
[18:26] <scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ContributeToDevelopment
[18:26] <scott-work> to be honest, we are at the end of the cycle and there's not much to do currently for most upcoming items
[18:27] <scott-work> however....
[18:27] <scott-work> i expect development to pretty feverish and rapid during the next cycle and we will require a lot of testing
[18:28] <scott-work> so we will certainly need testing assistence when it all starts
[18:28] <scott-work> fr-z: i will also say that we probably need to update an application (ubuntustudio-controls) which could certainly use a new UI
[18:29] <scott-work> however, that project still needs to have in depth discussion about the purpose and design of the application needs to be going forward since many things have changed systemically
[18:29] <scott-work> in some cases, some functionality has been precluded by systemic changes in jack
[18:31] <scott-work> fr-z: any questions or comments?
[18:32] <fr-z> i will reply in a sec i am reading the page also
[18:34] <fr-z> i was also instaling ubuntustudio-controls to check how was the UI of it
[18:35] <fr-z> i can see that you also need help on the theme and maybe on the site layout?
[18:38] <scott-work> fr-z: i can give you some particulars about the theme
[18:39] <fr-z> that would be nice.
[18:39] <scott-work> fr-z: knome is working currently on the new website layout although i cannot speak to whether he would want or need assistance
[18:39] <fr-z> ok
[18:43] <scott-work> sorry, i'm at work so the pauses are when i need to address soemthing
[18:44] <fr-z> np i am still at the agency aswell
[18:44] <scott-work> fr-z: are you familiar with the xubuntu theme?  i think it is based on the thunderbird theme?
[18:46] <scott-work> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TbqXvD4wEDI/AAAAAAAAENU/dv_zS0XwUCM/xubuntu-11.04_2.png
[18:46] <fr-z> i am a zero coder. I work on layouts and interfaces. I basicly develope the visual concept and usability skeleton of interfaces
[18:46] <scott-work> this is fairly representative
[18:46] <scott-work> fr-z: okay, can i use vague terms to describe an effect then?
[18:46] <fr-z> sure
[18:48] <scott-work> my philosophy is that a pretty or fancy desktop is a distraction from doing pretty and fancy work ;)
[18:48] <scott-work> i think the desktop should not draw attention but be completely functional
[18:48] <scott-work> transparent but accessible, perhaps
[18:49] <fr-z> thats why usability exists, its to serve those needs :)
[18:49] <scott-work> i like the xubuntu 11.04 theme because it has an understated simplicity that allows you to function
[18:50] <scott-work> there are some thing i would change, but i'll mention those later
[18:50] <scott-work> if the target audience is to be users new to ubuntu/linux then we should maintain the expect desktop paradigm
[18:50] <scott-work> i.e. no unity or gnome3
[18:51] <scott-work> xfce is a light weight and still developed alternative to gnome-panel that maintains the familiar desktop paradigm
[18:51] <scott-work> i would prefer neutral colors but perhpas this is the wrong adjective
[18:51] <scott-work> by neutral i mean that it doesn't attract attention
[18:52] <scott-work> so i would prefer grey (or gray as americans spell it), dark grey, or black for colors
[18:52] <fr-z> unity and gnome 3 are an insult to usability. I have a graphic station runing it and i will format if soon. On a well organized UI you work fast. On those you take too much time to swap between apps and the workflow is very bad
[18:52] <scott-work> i would like the window dressing to be uncluttered with fifteen jabillion window options...three buttons should suffice
[18:53] <scott-work> fr-z: agreed!  especially for audio work where you will have at least five active windows and perhaps as much as twenty with synth work!
[18:53] <scott-work> the desktop wallpaper should be fairly homogenous and not cluttered
[18:54] <fr-z> fully agree
[18:54] <scott-work> a simple logo design that is unobtrusive would be acceptable if tacitly placed in a corner perhaps
[18:54] <fr-z> who has a long work day on a station will need to feel the UI ans a structure that supports the apps
[18:57] <fr-z> i think the paradigm should be maintained. Not only for those that work on audio or graphics but, as you mentioned, on new users. Ppl i installed ubuntu where very happy and working on it. Now with unity they are on panic and cant work. Some are getting back to windos
[18:57] <fr-z> thats why unity is a fail
[18:57] <fr-z> not even talking about the left bar.
[18:58] <fr-z> when you work, you need an harmony, and a strong bar pushing the view to one side of the UI, like on unity, is not good for a designer
[18:58] <fr-z> the workflow is needed, the simplicity
[18:59] <scott-work> i would posit that those who work with keystrokes instead of mouse can function very well with gnome3 or unity still, but that is not the majority of users though
[18:59] <scott-work> especially new ones to linux
[19:00] <fr-z> true
[19:00] <scott-work> i used unity for several months on my laptop, same with gnome3
[19:00] <scott-work> i didn't like it very much although i found gnome3 slightly more usable with the "hot corner" and more than four workspaces
[19:01] <scott-work> but as far as specifics for a theme, i can't offer much more than what i have already mentioned
[19:02] <scott-work> although i can offer a link to the most recent theme that i liked:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
[19:03] <fr-z> thats about the same i use :)
[19:03] <scott-work> not theme related but i think we might also want to reconsider our menu to ensure it is simplified
[19:04] <fr-z> how can i help? i make a sketch "screenshot" and send to you ?
[19:04] <scott-work> i think that could be extremely helpful :)
[19:04] <fr-z> nice
[19:05] <fr-z> how can i do it?
[19:05] <scott-work> send the "screenshot" to me?  my email is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:06] <scott-work> someone did suggest we use an existing theme to minimize our efforts but i haven't found a theme that is quite there
[19:10] <fr-z> i will work on it and will send it to you as soon as i can
[19:11] <fr-z> i will go to have dinner now i will get back later thank you for the help :)
[19:11] <scott-work> greybird was the theme used for xubuntu 11.04, i'm not sure what is being used for 11.10 but i will find out tongith when i install it ;)
[19:11] <scott-work> okay, thank you fr-z
[19:12] <fr-z> ;)
[20:16] <sd_ubuntu_> Hi!
[20:17] <sd_ubuntu_> it takes much time before to start?
[20:17] <sd_ubuntu_> (sorry for my english :-) )
[22:41] <fr-z> hi


[09:31] <ariabbas> .
[15:11] <Ch3ck> hello
[15:11] <Ch3ck> Never really met any ubuntu geeks in Cameroon before
[15:12] <Ch3ck> nice to finally see an IRC channel for them
[15:16] <ariabbas> .
[15:21] <ariabbas> Ch3ck: glad to have you among us ;)