[01:50] <sophie-w> Update: I've tested wayvnc with the virtual pointer protocol and the WL_seat version bump. It seems to give us an invalid keymap fd. Will look into that next week.


[10:34] <stevenm> Has anyone actually tested the installation step where you join AD?  because it doesn't work on the latest 22.04 ISO
[10:46] <stevenm> the UI is literally broken... one minute the screen is 'Who are you?' (the bit for entering in the PC's hostname, your real name, etc...), then it's then 'Configure Active Directory' screen... and when hitting continue you're STILL on that screen but the heading has changed back to 'Who are you?'
[12:21] <guiverc> stevenm, most QA tesers likely don't use ActDir/AD; if you'd like to help test it pre-release that would be beneficial, alas but a bit late now
[12:22] <guiverc> 20.04.5 is the next release btw.
[12:22] <stevenm> do you mean 22?
[12:24] <guiverc> Ubuntu-MATE 20.04.5 or the final focal release is in ~three weeks
[12:25] <stevenm> ah ok, for a moment I was wondering why it'd jump from 22.04.1 to 22.04.5
[12:25] <stevenm> but 20.04.5 makes more sense :)
[12:25] <guiverc> (installed systems are already running most of the code; inc. 5.15 kernel from 22.04... but ISO release is in ~3 weeks)
[12:25] <stevenm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1985971
[12:26] <stevenm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1985969
[12:26] <stevenm> (yes I logged those)
[12:26] <stevenm> ubiquity and snaps are the worst
[12:30]  * stevenm downloads debian-live-11.4.0-amd64-mate+nonfree.iso


[04:41]  * Kilos waves
[04:42] <nhaines> Hi, Kilos.
[04:43] <Kilos> morning nhaines
[06:31] <Kilos> hi dpm
[08:12] <Kilos> hi dholbach
[08:12] <dholbach> good morning
[08:12] <dholbach> hey Kilos
[13:43] <Kilos> have a good weekend all of you that dont come here weekends :D


[03:46] <kulelu88> Maaz: tell superfly Success! It works now :D
[03:46] <Maaz> kulelu88: Okay, I'll tell superfly on freenode
[04:50] <tumbleweed> 54
[07:47] <superfly> .
[07:47] <Maaz> superfly: By the way, kulelu88 on freenode told me "tell superfly Success! It works now :D" 4 hours and 58 seconds ago
[07:47] <superfly> Maaz: tell kulelu88 great!
[07:47] <Maaz> superfly: Got it, I'll tell kulelu88 on freenode
[07:48] <Langjan> Hi all
[07:48] <superfly> hi Langjan
[07:48] <Langjan> you well superfly ?
[07:49] <superfly> Langjan: that's a simple question with a complicated answer.
[07:49] <Langjan> Sorry!
[07:49] <Langjan> superfly, some advice please
[07:51] <superfly> Langjan: what's up?
[07:51] <Langjan> I did sudo apt-get install ClamTK on my wife's 14.04, now unable to login
[07:52] <Langjan> Have tried various recoveries in grub, no luck
[07:53] <superfly> Langjan: what do you mean "unable to log in"?
[07:54] <Langjan> On restart I get ubuntu screen with login window asking for password, does not accept password
[07:56] <Langjan> Have now logged in via guest session
[07:56] <superfly> does it tell you the password is wrong? are you sure you're using the right username?
[07:57] <superfly> did you try logging in via a tty session? Ctrl+Alt+F1 to go to a tty, Ctrl+Alt+F7 to go back to the GUI
[07:57] <superfly> (or sometimes Ctrl+Alt+F2)
[07:57] <Langjan> No it just flashes to a black screen then back to the login prompt
[07:59] <superfly> ah
[08:02] <Langjan> superfly, I did a system reboot from Ctrl+Alt+F2 but back to same problem
[08:04] <superfly> Langjan: I'd google for something like "can't log in just black flash ubuntu 14.04"
[08:05] <Langjan> thks let me try. Im currently in a command line...
[09:42] <magespawn> good day
[09:48] <superfly> hi magespawn
[09:58] <magespawn> hey superfly
[09:59] <magespawn> how is everything going with the big move?
[09:59] <superfly> magespawn: well, we finally have all the documents we need, including an unabridged marriage certificate that was supposed to take forever.
[09:59] <superfly> magespawn: so tomorrow we submit my visa pettition
[10:00] <superfly> flights for the family (apart from me) are booked
[10:13] <magespawn> Big move, that is good the hear, I am moving the family up to JHB in December and that in bad enough
[10:15] <superfly> I think it's easier, to be honest. We can't take stuff with, so we have to just get rid of everything
[11:08] <Kilos> hellooo everyone, i should have been in bed already and you guys are having lunch
[11:09] <superfly> hi Kilos!
[11:10] <Kilos> hi superfly whats news with you preparations sir?
[11:10] <Kilos> s/you/your
[11:10] <magespawn> Hi Kilos
[11:10] <Kilos> hi magespawn
[11:11] <superfly> Kilos: good news, we got all our passports and other documents (marriage certificates, birth certificates) yesterday. The flights for the rest of the family are booked (20th of October) and my next step is to apply for my visa.
[11:11] <superfly> Kilos: also, this happened: http://imgur.com/a/14qre
[11:11] <Kilos> lemme see
[11:12] <Kilos> ai! what happened
[11:12] <superfly> Kilos: read the blurb at the bottom
[11:12] <Kilos> im happy to hear the docs have arrived for the rest of the family but i think you should have applied already for the visa
[11:13] <superfly> Kilos: I couldn't apply until I had my unabridged marriage certificate
[11:13] <superfly> and I only got that yesterday
[11:13] <Kilos> wow poor guy
[11:14] <Kilos> and well done to you , your parental skills are getting good
[11:14] <Kilos> oh yeah i got one of those as well
[11:14] <magespawn> superfly: like you need anything else.
[11:14] <Kilos> not sure what the diffs is between that and an abbridged one
[11:15] <Kilos> unabbridged
[11:15] <magespawn> abriged has been changed or altered
[11:15] <Kilos> oh
[11:15] <Kilos> i even had to get an unabridged birth cert
[11:15] <superfly> Kilos: as per home affairs and everyone else, "the unabridged has more information" -- except no one can tell me what information that is
[11:15] <Kilos> rofl
[11:16] <magespawn> just be glade you got it
[11:16] <Kilos> yes
[11:16] <magespawn> glad
[11:16] <magespawn> too
[11:16] <Kilos> also as well
[11:17] <superfly> I think I'm going to blog about it
[11:17] <Kilos> good idea superfly
[11:18] <Kilos> and inetpro i think it was you that said one can whatsapp on ubuntu somehow
[11:18] <Kilos> ive been trying agin on pidgin with no luck
[11:18] <Kilos> i need it to stay in touch with brother and his wife
[11:18] <CraigZim> https://web.whatsapp.com/
[11:18] <superfly> Kilos: you open your browser and go to https://web.whatsapp.com/
[11:18] <CraigZim> good day all
[11:18] <Kilos> ty CraigZim i think i even tried that
[11:19] <superfly> Kilos: But you need your phone on
[11:19] <Kilos> bad news about boet
[11:19] <superfly> and on the same network as your computer
[11:19] <Kilos> his pneumonia turned into cancer all over after they got biopsy results
[11:19] <superfly> ai :-(
[11:20] <Kilos> oh same network superfly
[11:20] <CraigZim> as in wifi Kilos
[11:21] <Kilos> i can used my babys wifi
[11:21] <CraigZim> Sorry about you Boet
[11:21] <Kilos> so all should then be on same network right?
[11:21] <Kilos> ty CraigZim
[11:22] <Kilos> i gotta go eat guys , debs calls
[11:22] <Kilos> woooot so happy
[12:42] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight when it gets dark
[18:12] <SEptic> evening all
[18:21] <pavlushka> evening SEptic !
[18:21] <pavlushka> ahoy ZA!
[18:22] <SEptic> pavlushka!
[18:22] <pavlushka> Yes SEptic :)
[18:25] <SEptic> hey Kilos
[18:25] <SEptic> full house tonight
[18:28] <inetpro> good evening
[18:29] <inetpro> oh and good mornings oom Kilos as well
[18:30] <inetpro> 4:30 in the morning there, that's way too early to wake up
[18:30] <Kilos> ohi inetpro 4.30 am here
[18:30] <paddatrapper> Kilos: Body still on SA time?
[18:30] <Kilos> boet bad
[18:30] <paddatrapper> Eish...
[18:30] <inetpro> ai! Sorry to hear that sir
[18:31] <Kilos> yip body struggling here
[18:31] <Kilos> are you guys all ok?
[18:31] <inetpro> too quiet without you, otherwise all fine here
[18:33] <paddatrapper> All good thanks
[18:33] <Kilos> ive been super busy, stupid washing machine banged against casing then gave errors and kept wrapping washing around agitator thing
[18:33] <Kilos> so ive cut up a sponge matress and shoved that up the sides, that stopped the banging
[18:33] <Kilos> hehe
[18:33] <paddatrapper> Hehe nice
[18:34] <Kilos> now i gotta fine what kind of ratched afair makes the tup spin and fix that
[18:34] <paddatrapper> Kettle died at work and I managed to fry a glue gun so far this week
[18:34] <Kilos> washing all winds up on centre spindle
[18:34] <Kilos> lol
[18:34] <paddatrapper> Which kind of defeats the purpose...
[18:35] <Kilos> ill sort it once i can strip it and figure out what does what, just need to keep going to buy tools
[18:35] <Kilos> ai!
[18:36] <SEptic> aussie washing machine?
[18:36] <Kilos> i have enough tools at home to strip a boeing and here nothing
[18:36] <Kilos> simpson toploader
[18:36] <paddatrapper> Kilos: That feeling of having no tools is terrible. Had it the whole of last year... Hated it
[18:37] <Kilos> ive googles stacks and i think its parts they call dogs thast are worn out
[18:37] <inetpro> just go get a new one
[18:37] <inetpro> oops... cost money, sorry
[18:37] <SEptic> you need to turn it upside down to run properly
[18:37] <SEptic> ;)
[18:38] <paddatrapper> lol
[18:39] <SEptic> when i was in germany, some mates and i encountered some australians in a bus booze cruise ... one was hanging upside down from the overhead baggage rails
[18:39] <SEptic> must've been missing home
[18:44] <Kilos> lol
[18:44] <Kilos> they are a funny nation
[18:44] <Kilos> and speak very poor english
[18:45] <Kilos> and speak so fast i have to keep telling them there is no rush
[18:45] <Kilos> and the air stinks and burns my nose and makes me sneeze
[18:45] <Kilos> and the tap water sucks
[18:46] <Kilos> but its the happiest ive been in at least 15 years
[18:47] <Kilos> things are very expensive here, i dont know how peeps survive
[18:47] <Kilos> like $6 for a 10mm socket
[18:48] <Kilos> mind you i didnt check za prices recently
[18:48] <Kilos> i have clapped ian for using a pliers on a nut or bolt but now im doing it
[18:49] <SEptic> haha
[18:49] <SEptic> just maar have to get it done i guess
[18:50] <Kilos> yip
[18:50] <Kilos> n boer maak n plan
[18:50] <SEptic> netso
[18:51] <Kilos> oh inetpro superfly , debs is running 14.04 kde on her ibm lappy with 2g ram
[18:51] <Kilos> rther slow but 3 times faster than xp was
[18:52] <Kilos> now she has to learn libreoffice writer to write her book
[18:52] <inetpro> well done Kilos!
[18:53] <inetpro> today I noticed something on twitter where they were testing a Tesla using Ubuntu as well
[18:53] <Kilos> yes i saw a while back something about tesla using ubuntu
[18:54] <MaNI> haha, they survive by earning AUD not ZAR
[18:54] <Kilos> and the space station
[18:54] <Kilos> haha
[18:54] <inetpro> Tesla Autopilot 2.0 Capabilities Demoed With Ubuntu http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/09/tesla-autopilot-2-bosch-ubuntu-linux
[18:55] <inetpro> rather boring but still
[18:56] <Kilos> lol
[18:56] <MaNI> and probably also because they have less stuff to pay for because government actually provides things
[18:56] <Kilos> its wonderful to have uncapped
[18:56] <inetpro> apples iPhone 7 wireless headphones are probably more interesting than that
[18:57] <Kilos> they turn every dollar over 4 times MaNI so not all roses
[18:57] <inetpro> hopefully we'll see more of those in the open world
[18:57] <Kilos> but many smart new v8s running around
[18:58] <MaNI> also different tax rates :p
[18:58] <Kilos> oh inetpro tara has been invited to sing the anthem at the next v8 super cars race in a week or two
[18:59] <inetpro> Kilos: oh wow!
[18:59] <Kilos> ill try get a link so some uncapped can stream it
[18:59] <Kilos> i have even told her to shut up a few times
[19:00] <Kilos> seems like she has a built in mp4 goody
[19:00] <Kilos> forever singing
[19:01] <paddatrapper> Lol
[19:01] <Kilos> she cant even let the beatles sing in pease
[19:01] <Kilos> peace
[19:02] <Kilos> seem she knows just about every song there is
[19:02] <pavlushka> Kilos: you should have packed your bags with tools :p
[19:02] <Kilos> only boere songs got her rattled
[19:02] <Kilos> they very strick on what you can bring in pavlushka
[19:03] <Kilos> strict
[19:03] <Kilos> took me about 1 1/2 hours to get through all the customs goodies
[19:04] <Kilos> and had to even remove boots a few times with their scanners
[19:04] <pavlushka> Kilos: yeah, the customs ceased my cousin's swiss knife, she regrets it :0
[19:04] <pavlushka> :)
[19:04] <Kilos> safety boots have steel toe caps
[19:05] <Kilos> had a long discussion about smokes as well
[19:05] <Kilos> they allow 50 cigarettes
[19:05] <pavlushka> aha
[19:05] <Kilos> i told them i have a carton
[19:06] <Kilos> the  guy said i should charge you $120 tax
[19:06] <Kilos> i said no no you smoke them
[19:06] <pavlushka> lol
[19:06] <Kilos> eventually he gave in and said this time ill let you through
[19:07] <pavlushka> wow
[19:07] <Kilos> i actually had 14 packets
[19:07] <Kilos> but he said they changing laws to allow no cigarettes in soon
[19:18] <Kilos> you guys have a good evening and sleep tight. i try sleep some more
[19:18] <inetpro> oh I thought you went to make breakfast
[19:18] <Kilos> lol
[19:18] <Kilos> 5.18 man
[19:18] <inetpro> gaan slaap oom :-)
[19:18] <Kilos> hehe
[19:18] <inetpro> see you laters
[19:18] <Kilos> see you all later
[19:19] <Kilos> :D
[19:19] <magespawn> good night all
[19:19] <inetpro> good mornings magespawn
[19:19] <inetpro> oops, I mean good night
[19:20] <magespawn> hah


[06:08] <pitti> Good morning
[06:45] <dholbach> good morning
[06:45] <jibel> good morning
[06:46] <pitti> bonjour jibel
[06:47] <jibel> bonjour pitti
[07:59] <smartboyhw> Noskcaj: Are you here?
[08:04] <Noskcaj> smartboyhw, yeah?
[08:05] <smartboyhw> Noskcaj: PM?
[08:05] <Noskcaj> sure
[12:06] <chrisccoulson> is there anybody who enjoys debugging test failures and wants to get their hands dirty?
[12:06] <chrisccoulson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bugs?field.tag=moz-test-regression
[12:06] <chrisccoulson> ;)
[15:54] <smartboyhw> phillw: How ya doing today?
[15:55] <phillw> hi smartboyhw I'm well, how's things with you?
[15:55] <smartboyhw> phillw: good:)
[16:27] <chrisccoulson> jibel, is there any way to find out the binary package version installed for autopkgtest runs? i can find the source package version in the test logs. it seems that the test runs fire when there is a new source package, but before the binary packages have built and become available
[16:35] <chilicuil> ~~
[16:36] <jibel> chrisccoulson, oh right, looking at the logs for run #149 of firefox-trunk version of the source package is firefox-trunk 23.0~a1~hg20130407r127941-0ubuntu1~umd1 and version of the binary is firefox-trunk 23.0~a1~hg20130405r127690-0ubuntu1~umd1
[16:36] <jibel> hmmm
[16:37] <jibel> chrisccoulson, okay, I've an idea how to fix that. thanks for pointing this out.
[16:40] <chrisccoulson> jibel, awesome, thanks
[17:14] <SergioMeneses> morning!
[17:14] <SergioMeneses> smartboyhw, phillw \o
[17:34] <phillw> hiyas SergioMeneses
[19:11] <phillw> balloons: you have mail :)
[19:12]  * balloons looks
[19:21] <SergioMeneses> jejeje
[19:21] <SergioMeneses> phillw, \o\
[19:22] <phillw> SergioMenesesit looks a bit of a mess :(
[20:08] <balloons> bah, nosckaj isn't about
[20:09] <balloons> phillw, my thoughts are 1500 and 1499 are not the same
[20:09] <balloons> 1465 is supposed to be for the small changes for ppc for netboot
[20:10] <balloons> we can easily re-assign testcases to products if they are incorrect of course..
[20:10] <balloons> in this case, I need the ppc testers help..
[20:19] <phillw> balloons: what is the difference between 1499 and 1500 ? apart from we do actually check that tasksel is there on 1500 (always a good move).
[20:23] <phillw> as for 1465 it is now an extension of 1499 (does the system re-boot), 1500 (we do actually have tasksel) and 1465 which says 'now install what you want'. I'm all for 1500, but what has 1465 got to do with testing the mini-iso has installed?
[20:23] <phillw> I can just as easily follow up 1500 and put ubuntu-unity on it?
[20:25] <phillw> let me just go and pull in the 13.04 tasksel to see what it offers :)
[20:27] <phillw> balloons: It would be a good idea anyway, as I need to check it still offers LAMP :)
[20:28] <phillw> balloons: I suggest you install it and see the number of choices :D
[20:29] <balloons> phillw, the difference is booting
[20:29] <balloons> one uses a mini iso
[20:29] <balloons> the other uses a tarball and grub entry
[20:30] <phillw> An application test case would be more fitting... launch it, offer how to navigate it, and then let a user flag up if one of the 42 options do not work.
[20:32] <phillw> balloons: are you refering to 1501?
[20:37] <phillw> balloons: ahh, 1500 ... yup, good application test, but it does assume you have a running system to edit the grub on. This is not really testing does the debian network iso actually work on a virgin system? As it is marked mandatory, it would mean that if the iso installs perfectly on a machine, it would not get passed because no one has carried out that test. Thus, it is, at best 'optional'.
[20:38] <phillw> same as the pxe test also requires a running machine in order to tell it where to get the image from. If you have a blank formatted hard drive.... you cannot use either.
[20:38] <phillw> IIRC, pxe is more used on VM's than actual kit?
[20:39] <phillw> or on machines with a /boot partition which holds the minimal amount to actually get to "where do I boot from" :D
[20:42] <phillw> balloons: I recall a similar discussion, when things went a bit crazy at 12.10 release. we could not test all the 'madatory' test cases for ppc-server, simply because we did not have the equipment, it was none other than the guy who 'looks after' mini/netboot  who said that as long as it boots and runs, that is enough for the iso-tracker......
[20:55] <balloons> if you want to remove the tests as mandatory, that's also an option :-)
[21:01] <phillw> balloons: I'll bounce the idea off colin watson, I cannot see him having an issue. the mini-netboot iso's simply 'arrive' from debian. Are you okay to have the mini-iso / netboot iso check to see that tasksel is actually there?
[21:01] <phillw> I do think that is quite vital!
[21:01] <balloons> check that you get a tasksel?
[21:01] <balloons> why wouldn't you? I certainly hope you would :-)
[21:04] <Noskcaj> the testing tracker is missing beta 2
[21:04] <phillw> I will have a look through the test-cases and ensure that the check for task-sel does only list the options and not actually install anything (I am pretty darn sure that 1500 does this.
[21:06] <phillw> balloons: as second point with using mini/netboot we only offer 'use entire disk', do you want me to check on if it supports side by side as an option?
[21:07] <phillw> he he, i now have the daily mini-iso on my dedicated server.... let me try that command again on my own computer..... darn these windows!
[21:08] <phillw> Noskcaj: you have a good point!
[21:09] <phillw> I'm really scoring 0% on my observency checks this evening!
[21:10] <Noskcaj> phillw, for mini-iso it's not really a daily. it will randomly update. i've seen it update 3 times a day once
[21:10] <phillw> Noskcaj: all the beta 2's for the flavours are on http://phillw.net/isos/
[21:11] <phillw> Noskcaj: we were discussing that some of mandatory test cases, are not.
[21:11] <Noskcaj> phillw, i'm able to get them, i'm just surprised they aren't on the tracker.
[21:11] <phillw> I'll let balloons go and check with the -release team where the Beta 2 entry went :D
[21:11] <Noskcaj> ok
[21:12] <balloons> Noskcaj, yea, I noticed it was gone also
[21:12] <balloons> it was misplaced as archived
[21:12] <phillw> I think stephane may have gone AFK.
[21:12] <balloons> i'll fix it now
[21:12] <Noskcaj> on the topic of the testcases, why do only kubuntu and ubuntu have lvm + encryption
[21:12] <balloons> done :-)
[21:13] <phillw> Noskcaj: I'm sure I saw it on lubuntu? It is part of ubiquity which we all share?
[21:13] <Noskcaj> phillw, yeah
[21:14] <phillw> well, not ubiquity, as that is the GUI.. but the script for part-man
[21:19] <phillw> Noskcaj: the mini-isos arrive as per release from debian, there has been one occaission when the -release team did not update the iso-tracker. And knowing full well "Sod's Law" it was the day when one of the L-QA team installed the iso, and it failed :D
[21:20] <Noskcaj> for anyone willing to help, i'm working on a magazine article foe xubuntu at http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-articles-testing
[21:21] <phillw> Noskcaj: well, you have the classroom sessions; along with news of what did not work in 12.10 and will be resolved in 13.04 :)
[21:22] <Noskcaj> also, i'm going for membership. can someone have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Noskcaj
[21:37] <phillw> Noskcaj: I've added mine, but it does need a bit of 'tidying up' :)
[21:37] <phillw> (not my refernce... the page).
[21:37] <Noskcaj> phillw, yeah, i'll work on that soon
[21:43] <JoseeAntonioR> phillw: classroom sessions, you said?
[21:43] <phillw> JoseeAntonioR:  who did?>
[21:43] <JoseeAntonioR> phillw: you
[21:44] <JoseeAntonioR> mentioned Noskcaj he'd have the classroom sessions
[21:44] <phillw> JoseeAntonioR: indeed, I am guilty as charged.... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/Classroom#Section_3
[21:45] <JoseeAntonioR> oh, you meant the past sessions
[21:45] <JoseeAntonioR> got it
[21:46] <phillw> it is for a reference, as in what he HAS done, not what he WILL do (although, he WILL be holding classroom sessions again :P )
[21:46] <phillw> as will all of us, plus some new comers :)
[21:48]  * phillw looks at JoseeAntonioR and listens to SergioMeneses laughing :D
[21:48] <SergioMeneses> hey!
[21:49] <SergioMeneses> phillw, why?
[21:49] <phillw> SergioMenesesthe aren't that bad to do (classroom sessions), are they?
[21:50] <SergioMeneses> phillw, I don't know
[21:50] <phillw> where you not there for  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/Classroom#Section_4 SergioMeneses?
[21:50] <phillw> has you listed!
[21:51] <SergioMeneses> :O
[21:51] <phillw> Don't tell me you got a 'sick note; from your mummy and chickened out :P
[21:54] <SergioMeneses> phillw, what is wrong?
[21:58] <phillw> SergioMeneses you where on those classroom sessions ?!!!
[22:01] <SergioMeneses> phillw, yes, testing on laptops
[22:09] <SergioMeneses> phillw, why are you asking that?
[22:28] <SergioMeneses> phillw, ?
[22:31] <phillw> SergioMeneses that was answered on ##phillw earlier?
[22:31] <phillw> stop confusing me as switch from chromium over to Ffox as my main browser!
[22:31] <SergioMeneses> phillw, lol
[22:31] <SergioMeneses> ok


[18:13] <Equiet_> Software Center History done. http://i49.tinypic.com/29zsifb.jpg
[18:29] <tretle> any idea whether rgba is enabled globally by default in the alpha 1 build of lucid?
[18:31] <tretle> kwwii - I assume that the plan is to rework the gtk theme with transparent fun if the rgba stuff works out?
[18:31] <coz_> Equiet_,  is that a mock up or a new theme?
[18:32] <kwwii> tretle: not sure how much of that will make it into lucid...depending on that, yes, we will include as much as possible
[18:32] <thorwil> Equiet_: neat. i think i see varying slight color tints in the greys, though
[18:32] <kwwii> tretle: the rgba stuff we have been working on allows a person to set an alpha value to whole classes of widgets
[18:33] <tretle> Would it not also be a great boon for cimi's rgba transparent gtk work
[18:34] <kwwii> so for instance, we can set all menu- and tool-bars in unfoused windows slightly slightly transparent
[18:34] <kwwii> this allows us to enable transapency without touching apps ;)
[18:35] <tretle> Cimi must be estatic :D
[18:35] <tretle> Was a shame that the gtk guys had no interest in it
[18:35] <thorwil> kwwii: there's already mechanism to thme widgets different depending on window focus?
[18:35] <thorwil> theme, even
[18:36] <tretle> great contribution from canonical in my view
[18:37] <tretle> thorwil - rgba gtk transparency?
[18:37] <thorwil> tretle: i mean in general
[18:38] <tretle> I would assume that transparency would add variables to the equation the current system does not account for.
[18:40] <tretle> out of curiosity was upstart still used along with xsplash for 9.10, hence the two different boot up themes?
[18:41] <tretle> whoops
[18:41] <tretle> usplash
[18:42] <Equiet_> coz_: A mockup.
[18:43] <coz_> Equiet_,   yeah I was just curious what was going on with the screenshot:)
[18:45] <kwwii> thorwil: yes, with both rgba and the cs windeco code we will have it
[18:46] <kwwii> and this is all in patches for gtk, so it will all go upstream
[18:46] <Equiet_> thorwil: Yeah, there is a lot of color grey diferences. Mainly the zebra effects in events and months.
[18:46] <Equiet_> If you mean this.
[18:48] <thorwil> Equiet_: i mean yellowish, greenish and blueish tints in the greys. from experience i know that this can be misleading, as it is much about context
[18:49]  * tretle thinks its kinda sad it took this long for global rgba support to make it into gtk but happy canonical pushed some progression on the subject :D
[18:50] <thorwil> Equiet_: you could do without the rectangles around the numbers
[18:57] <Equiet_> thorwil: Without them it looks quite unsorted with random brown rectangles. But with just one rectangle behind all numbers...
[18:58] <thorwil> Equiet_: that's a matter of how you style the divisions
[18:59] <Equiet_> thorwil: http://i48.tinypic.com/2qv8kk3.jpg , http://i48.tinypic.com/1zxdh2.jpg
[19:00] <thorwil> Equiet_: starting from the first, try lines between the numbers, reachung up to the bars
[19:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: then try to fade the lines out at top and bottom
[19:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: also try white lines and adjust the background there
[19:07] <tretle> actually I think the gtk box around the numbers 18-24 in november looks weird, unusual to see it rendered in that way rather than go with a standard highlight color
[19:11] <Equiet_> thorwil: http://i46.tinypic.com/5eeirq.jpg
[19:12] <thorwil> Equiet_: i think that works fine
[19:12] <Equiet_> Looks like I will need serious auto upload tool for this.
[19:13] <coz_> oo that last link isnt opening here
[19:13] <coz_> there i is
[19:14] <Equiet_> tretle: Please, explain a little bit more.
[19:14] <thorwil> mac_v: stop trolling kerberos ;)
[19:14] <mac_v> thorwil: had too much of him ;p
[19:15] <mac_v> thorwil: is he a friend of yours ? [didnt mean to offend you ;) ]
[19:15] <thorwil> mac_v: no. i have none ;p
[19:15] <mac_v> lol
[19:16] <thorwil> mac_v: he's right regarding the big picture, but totally blind to what has been going on. or he's actually having fun with the list, like you do ...
[19:16] <mac_v> thorwil: hei!
[19:18] <mac_v> thorwil: big picture everyone knows... but what to do/how to deal is the problem ;)
[19:18] <thorwil> Equiet_: i think what tretle means is that you should try to indicate the selection with a filled rect like you see on item selection in nautilus
[19:19] <thorwil> mac_v: make everyone do what i say would be one way. but i guess that's not popular :)
[19:22] <thorwil> Equiet_: though i bet he didn't think of direct manipulation
[19:24] <tretle> yeah thats what I meant
[19:25] <thorwil> tretle: the intention might be to have a resize-able selection
[19:26] <thorwil> and certainly one that can be dragged
[19:26] <tretle> and I did think of direct manipulation, it made me wonder. If you directly manipulate it in such a way instead of using a fill color then why is there a scroll bar? Is that not added clutter?
[19:26] <tretle> ah
[19:26] <tretle> resizable
[19:26] <tretle> did not think of that
[19:27] <thorwil> tretle: scrolled view is larger than desired selection?
[19:27] <mac_v> Equiet_: use png screenshots , the image would be better/clearer
[19:27] <thorwil> worth a thought to not have a scroll/selection split
[19:27] <tretle> and how does pitivi and jokosher handle the issue
[19:28] <tretle> would it not be a wise idea using a similar system so that there is some consistancy
[19:28] <thorwil> yes, for the 5 pitivi and/or jokosher users ;)
[19:29] <tretle> Thats not fair on jokosher
[19:29] <tretle> its fully featured
[19:29] <tretle> and the ui is very well thought out
[19:32]  * thorwil hugs ardour
[19:35] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/ history-v5.png
[19:36] <coz_> Equiet_,  I havent been paying close attention and I apoligize for that but.. are th blocks above the numbers  small progress bars?
[19:37] <Equiet_> :/
[19:37] <coz_> Equiet_,  sorry   as I said I havent been paying attention
[19:39] <Equiet_> coz_: No, it's fine, but I am disappointed that it's not obvious (not your fault). It's means the activity/number of events for a certain day.
[19:39] <Equiet_> *It
[19:39] <thorwil> Equiet_: there's always someone to whom it is not obvious ... ;)
[19:39] <coz_> Equiet_,  ok... mm...that wasnt apparent  to me
[19:40] <coz_> well one of the issues with any gui is ,,,does it speak well to the average user?
[19:40] <coz_> it should also have advanced features but any gui  that is not clearly understaood by average users  should maube be thought about/
[19:41] <coz_> ?
[19:41] <thorwil> sadly we have no average user clones at our disposal
[19:41] <Equiet_> I have 1 Mac user online. :P :)
[19:41] <coz_> thorwil,  well you can show an image to anyone on most channels to see if it is clear to them :)
[19:42] <coz_> and I am can generally look with eyes of average user since most of my clients dont know anything about any system or application and they can get confused  or ignor what is not understood
[19:42] <coz_> ignore
[19:43] <coz_> I didnt mean to sound too blunt about this
[19:43] <thorwil> *ocean of doubt*
[19:43] <coz_> thorwil, well that one went over my head :) or between my legs not sure which :)
[19:45] <Equiet_> The Mac user anwers... And doesn't know what the brown rectangles are.
[19:45] <coz_> Equiet_,  this is from someone that looked at it?
[19:46] <Equiet_> coz_: Yes.
[19:46] <coz_> Equiet_,   well that kind of makes sense no?
[19:46] <thorwil> Equiet_: but he knows about the basic concept of the software center?
[19:47] <Equiet_> thorwil: He knows it's about installing apps, that's all.
[19:47] <coz_> there you go
[19:47] <thorwil> Equiet_: anyway, should days without even appear in the list?
[19:47] <thorwil> events, i mean
[19:48] <Equiet_> thorwil: Yes, I think. Without them users wouldn't even understand what the numbers are.
[19:49] <thorwil> Equiet_: with context like Histors ad November?
[19:49] <thorwil> Equiet_: you could make empty days smaller
[19:49] <thorwil> and unselectable
[19:50] <mac_v> mat_t: aw... :(   get well soon :)
[19:52] <Equiet_> thorwil: Empty days smaller - OK. But unselectable, it's quite too complicated, isn't it?
[19:52] <coz_> Equiet_,  is it possible to have the days with no events colapsed  with an arrow to expand it if someone wants to see all of the days?  or maybe each month expandable?
[19:52] <Equiet_> Well, coz_...
[19:53] <Equiet_> This is thing I thought about a lot.
[19:53] <coz_> Equiet_, ` to have it exapandable  you mean?
[19:53] <coz_> Equiet_,  or what you have on that image?
[19:54] <Equiet_> And after user stories I have read, all of them wants to step back only about 1 week ago.
[19:54] <coz_> ah
[19:54] <thorwil> Equiet_: it's questionable if there's a need to select a range of days, even
[19:54] <Equiet_> (Sorry, I write slow, especially in English.)
[19:54] <coz_> Equiet_,  your english is fine :)
[19:57] <Equiet_> thorwil: The range of days could be generated by number of events. There are users, that connect to the Internet once a month so they have just 1 day full of events.
[19:57] <Equiet_> So for them the range could be a month.
[19:57] <tretle> ardour is a different beast to jokosher, jokosher is the sound editor for bands and aurdour is for engineers
[19:57] <tretle> sound engineers
[19:58] <thorwil> tretle: no way, there are enough musicians using ardour
[19:58] <coz_> Equiet_,  I can say I prefer the layout of this very much compared to what is default right now:)
[19:59] <mac_v> coz_: good luck convincing mpt ;p
[19:59] <coz_> I dont do  any music composing on linux at all
[19:59] <coz_> mac_v,  oh?
[19:59] <mac_v> coz_: to change the software center layout ;)
[20:00] <thorwil> mac_v: when i talked with him, it seemed well to be within the realm of the possibl
[20:00] <coz_> mac_v,  oh !! mmm  well that's not surprising :)   although this layout is far less confusing than the default one
[20:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: maybe dates shouldn't be primary, but secondary. so you would have a list of events and at the side associate those to time ranges
[20:01] <mac_v> thorwil: yup , maybe  , i showed him Equiet_'s earlier layouts too... not sure he is very convinced though
[20:02] <mac_v> i'v*
[20:02] <coz_> that's a shame ..this layout is far more visually appropriat for gnome and most other applicatoin layouts
[20:02] <coz_> the default one is a bit "foreign"  overall in camparison
[20:03] <mac_v> actually , if we polish this very well and check there isnt any loop hole  , we've missed there might be a chance
[20:03] <coz_> that would be cool :)
[20:03] <coz_> Equiet_,  is the horizontal layout of history the only one you have attemtped?
[20:04]  * coz_ is fond of vertical ..list driven stuff :)
[20:04] <Equiet_> We can still do it simplier, just to replace the numbers with the name of the month and make selectable only whole moths. Result will be just a long list of events for advanced users and a short one for less advanced.
[20:05] <coz_> Equiet_, that sounds cool
[20:06] <mac_v> Equiet_: it would be bad , to just group everything from a month together
[20:06] <thorwil> i imagine a vertical list of events, with headlines for the month, but days running on one side
[20:07] <coz_> I lke that visual :)
[20:08]  * mac_v is probably blind , doesnt see what coz_ just saw :(
[20:08] <coz_> :)
[20:08]  * thorwil injects a does of alice in wonderland into mac_v's brain
[20:08] <coz_> mac_v,  sound to me like a typical applicatoins menu
[20:09] <coz_> mac_v,  vertical orientationi... list with the days as the active part   applications/accessories/ active stuff   but thats only what I saw :)
[20:10] <coz_> orientation  sorry for that italian "i" at the end
[20:10] <coz_> orientation rather
[20:11] <mac_v> hmm , maybe it would be too much info  , we need to keep it simple
[20:11] <coz_> vertial list with months  dialog opens for days?
[20:12] <mac_v> "applications/accessories/ active stuff" mentioning the categories next to the days
[20:12] <Equiet_> And what about doing it like http://i50.tinypic.com/sd2tti.jpg ? In the upper rectangle (where is All Departments and Sound & Video) would be months and instead of subsections would be days.
[20:12] <coz_> mmm
[20:13] <coz_> that sounds cool too
[20:13] <mac_v> Equiet_: there needs to be a '>' between all departments and S&V  "All dep.. > S&V"
[20:14] <mat_t> thx mac_v :)
[20:14] <mac_v> :)
[20:15] <mac_v> Equiet_: also regarding the history , it needs to be searchable...
[20:15] <Equiet_> mac_v: In the departments I didn't find place where to put ">".
[20:15] <Equiet_> And in history where to put search box.
[20:16] <mac_v> Equiet_: without atleast a '>' it wont be clear it is a submenu
[20:17] <mac_v> Equiet_: search is something that is stressed upon a lot , and needs to be prominent and consistently accessible in all the view , ie it needs to be a given a constant location
[20:17] <mac_v> Equiet_: in any view/tab the user changes to , the user has to be able to search
[20:18] <Equiet_> mac_v: If we will do the history that like subsections, there would be place for the search box.
[20:21] <mac_v> Equiet_: if the search box is to be in the subsections in other views , then you need to figure out how to get it in history too ,  else search needs a new place... [AFAIK , all the recent development is going towards keywords , categories and making apps easier to find]
[20:22] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/
[20:22] <Equiet_> :)
[20:23] <mac_v> nice :)
[20:24] <mac_v> Equiet_: why dont you move the search box to the space next to history in the top level?  the inprogress section is very rarely seen and the history , i believe is not displayed by default , so it shouldnt be cramped
[20:25] <mac_v> shouldnt be cramped in the top level*
[20:26] <Equiet_> mac_v: It used to be there, but for a reason I do not remember it has moved to the actual position.
[20:26] <mac_v> Equiet_: if its there , then you shouldnt have problem for history too
[20:27] <mac_v> Equiet_: BTW , for home section where is the search box?
 Equiet: search outside the notebook is not well placed, as it doesn't imply the actual scope of search
[20:27] <Equiet_> mac_v: There is not, too.
[20:27] <Equiet_> Ok, I will move it back.
[20:28] <mac_v> Equiet_: that location for search wont go too far :)
[20:29] <Equiet_> Brb.
[20:48] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/