[04:43] <mapps> morning
[05:52] <Myrtti> morning
[05:55] <mapps> gang related was good
[05:55] <mapps> LD
[05:55] <mapps> :D
[06:13] <Myrtti> grocery store close to the university buildings where they hold an annual Roleplaying Convention in Finland advertises: https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/10530719_10152334453113661_7916478887435041425_n.jpg
[06:15] <mapps> a banana:D
[06:17] <Myrtti> also it says on the bottom their _gates_ are open 24h
[06:45] <Myrtti> oooh I just realised I have milk, so I can make coffee!
[07:23] <diplo> Morning all
[07:33] <SuperMatt> http://sysadminday.com/ loooool
[08:18] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Friday, and happy SysAdmin Appreciation Day! :-D
[08:23] <bashrc> top of the morning
[08:32] <foobarry> \o/
[08:33] <foobarry> what can i do with a bunch of xml results from an api call to make them look nice on a web page?
[08:34] <foobarry> aha http://www.w3schools.com/xml/tryit.asp?filename=tryxml_display_table
[08:39] <JamesTait> foobarry, apply xslt
[08:40] <foobarry> thanks , i'll check it
[08:41] <JamesTait> foobarry, I'm scouring my bookmarks, I think I have a link to a good reference and tutorial.
[08:42] <foobarry> http://www.w3schools.com/xsl/xsl_transformation.asp looks ok
[08:46] <JamesTait> foobarry, that'll just about cover it. :)
[08:58] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:00] <foobarry> argh ubuntu.iso doesn't fit on 1Gb usb stick
[09:08] <SuperMatt> http://xkcd.com/705/
[09:09] <SuperMatt> obligatory xkcd post for the day
[09:13] <foobarry> worringly firefox shows the xml+xslt but chrome doesn't
[09:15] <foobarry> ah, a "security geature"
[09:23] <SuperMatt> gotta love those geatures
[09:30] <davmor2> bigcalm: do an update on 12.04 you should be able to upgrade after that :)
[09:33] <foobarry> hmm. i can't do stuff with <description>test</description> but if i have a line 		<status id="2" name="Open"/>
[09:33] <foobarry> then the examples don't cover that :(
[09:39] <xnox> i just made crispy bacon in the microwave oven.... this changes everything =)
[09:43] <JamesTait> Mmmm, bacon.
[09:49] <foobarry> been too scared to
[09:49] <foobarry> what's the recipe?
[09:54] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:54] <bigcalm> davmor2: okay
[09:56] <davmor2> MooDoo: I know how to fix your no work email issue, start your new job already :P
[10:02] <foobarry> fixed my xml issues with the help of an internet stranger \o/
[10:32] <davmor2> foobarry: or so you think, in reality he was a hacker who wanted access to your machine and you just invited him in ;)
[10:33] <foobarry> i conversed over irc
[10:35] <davmor2> foobarry: oh well that makes them saints obviously, cause nobody on irc would be cruel.......hunter2 :D
[10:35] <davmor2> foobarry: I'm only teasing :)  Glad to hear you got it sorted, but now you are ever so slightly paranoid right ;)
[10:36] <foobarry> he did ask me to type {}{}{}:)::(:(_:}{{}
[10:37] <foobarry> if thats the forkbomb code then its a zillion to one chance
[10:47] <davmor2> bigcalm: you'll appreciate this https://soundcloud.com/neilcic/mouthsilence
[10:50] <bigcalm> What the hell?
[10:51] <bigcalm> Very well done
[10:58] <foobarry> what the heck was taht noise
[10:58] <foobarry> its like an audio version of twitter
[11:01] <davmor2> foobarry: just keep listening it gets weirder
[11:06] <bigcalm> Aww, they censored the NIN track :(
[11:13] <davmor2> bigcalm: you got to the LoveShack to the wrong music?
[11:13] <bigcalm> 11:54 is where I'm at
[11:13] <bigcalm> Having to stop-start due to work
[11:13] <bigcalm> Now it's time for lunch!
[11:13] <davmor2> bigcalm: booo
[11:14] <bigcalm> bies
[11:14] <diddledan> wtf am I listening to?
[11:31] <davmor2> diddledan: is it melting your brain yet?
[11:31] <diddledan> davmor2: I gave up
[11:31] <davmor2> Wuss
[11:33] <davmor2> this is works I have no idea how http://factsvillage.com/dancing-spiderman-gif/
[11:42] <bigcalm> I could imagine deadpool dancing like that
[11:44] <jpds> davmor2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wga5A6R9BJg
[11:44] <Myrtti> if you didn't know already, apparently right now during ComicCon you can try out the Marvel archive thing for .99USD
[11:45] <Myrtti> it's a subscription normally for a tenner
[11:48] <diddledan> I think I need eyebleach after that video
[11:49] <davmor2> jpds: you need help :D
[11:51] <Myrtti> oh so that's where that one gif comes from
[12:12] <foobarry> mark hamill looks like hes been living on a fishing boat for 30yrs
[13:13] <jpds> davmor2: you were the one with the dance GIF.
[13:15] <davmor2> jpds: only cause it landed in my inbox on google plus
[13:16] <foobarry> trying to find something on the internet that i can only remember few details of.
[13:16] <foobarry> short story, possibly true, about a guy who lost his job but just went into a spare office and persauded them he was the area manager now
[13:18] <foobarry> ah, what a stroke of luck
[13:18] <foobarry> https://sites.google.com/site/forgottenemployee/
[14:06] <mapps> hey all
[14:09] <daftykins> o/
[14:10] <mapps> racing on mondayD
[14:10] <mapps> last evening racing of the summer at uttoxeter
[14:10] <mapps> hope its sunny
[14:13] <diddledan> it's raining! :-o
[14:14] <penguin42> no it's not
[14:15] <mapps> shame the trains are so rubbish
[14:15] <mapps> last train 21;07 last race 20;55
[14:15] <mapps> probab;y have to miss last race:<
[14:17] <diddledan> it's also thunderising
[14:23] <davmor2> this made my friday http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/comedy/10985111/British-inventor-builds-giant-fart-machine-to-fire-at-France.html
[14:30] <daftykins> mapps: did you see my link to the screenshot i took of android on the VPN? :>
[14:31] <daftykins> foobarry: heh this tale is amusing so far
[14:51] <foobarry> Myrtti: my wife is going to a yarn and spinning show tomorrow,
[14:51] <Myrtti> ooherrr!
[14:51] <foobarry> think its near bedford
[14:52] <foobarry> http://www.fibre-east.co.uk/
[14:53] <penguin42> not my type of fibre
[14:53] <foobarry> i have fibre to the cupboard at home
[14:53] <foobarry> and to the bedroom
[14:53] <Myrtti> thank god I don't have drivers licence
[14:53] <Myrtti> or a car
[14:53] <foobarry> she will buy a kromksi wheel if its discounted
[14:53] <foobarry> she borrowed one a month ago
[14:54] <foobarry> and has been beavering away
[14:54] <foobarry> looks right up your street this show
[14:54] <foobarry> metaphorically
[14:55] <foobarry> does mr Myrtti drive?
[14:56] <Myrtti> I'm not sure I'd dare to ask him to waste his day there...
[14:56] <daftykins> that's what trains are for
[14:57] <brobostigon> chooochoooo
[14:57] <daftykins> haha
[14:59] <Myrtti> daftykins: I'm not going to waste 4hours in a train to get there and 4hours to get back, if the trip is 36miles by car.
[15:00] <foobarry> than a half hour journey
[15:00] <foobarry> 1hr round trip , mr Myrtti could do it
[15:02] <daftykins> ah, car mentality.
[15:04] <davmor2> Myrtti: fly you must have a local airport :D
[15:04] <foobarry> train is good for point to pint
[15:09] <penguin42> problem with airports is the hour of security queuing, and then you have to add another 30min-hour extra time just in case, and you end up having to turn up 2 hours before it's due, so it takes longer than the train journey
[15:12] <daftykins> foobarry: haha, was that a genuine pub reference? :>
[15:12] <foobarry> nope
[15:12] <foobarry> accibeerindetall
[15:21] <davmor2> JamesTait: Hey dude does that mean you were one of the fools on the dancefloor square dancing to Cotton Eye Joe?
[15:22] <JamesTait> davmor2, doesn't sound like the kind of thing I'd do.
[15:23] <davmor2> JamesTait: So that that's a yes but only after enough drink :D
[15:24] <JamesTait> davmor2, maybe 20 years ago....
[15:25] <davmor2> JamesTait: It would of been 20 years ago :P
[15:25] <davmor2> JamesTait: 1994
[15:25]  * JamesTait feels he's missed something important somewhere.
[15:27] <davmor2> JamesTait: You were on about how Startrekking took you back to student days So it dawned on me you would party going night cluber in the early-mid 90's :)
[15:28] <daftykins> http://www.ebuyer.com/517639-lenovo-iomega-ix2-2tb-2-bay-desktop-nas-70a69000ea
[15:28] <JamesTait> davmor2, not Startrekking, the other one.  High state of Consciousness or whatever.
[15:28] <daftykins> super cheap 2 x 1TB NAS there
[15:28] <davmor2> JamesTait: oh yes
[15:28] <davmor2> Josh wink higher state of consciousness
[15:28] <JamesTait> I'm pretty sure I wasn't dancing to Cotton Eye Joe at Uni though.
[15:29] <JamesTait> Only the 6th Form leaver's do.
[15:29] <daftykins> ;)
[15:29] <davmor2> hahaha
[15:29] <davmor2> I knew you'd be dancing to it somewhere :D
[15:29] <JamesTait> Possinly with my chemistry teacher.
[15:29] <JamesTait> *Possibly
[15:30] <davmor2> JamesTait: Please say she was a woman
[15:30] <JamesTait> We were her first class.
[15:30] <davmor2> JamesTait: ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
[15:30] <JamesTait> She wasn't prepared for how gutted she'd feel that we were leaving.
[15:30] <davmor2> hahaha
[15:30] <JamesTait> She got very tearful at the end of the night, bless her.
[15:31] <daftykins> heh
[15:33] <davmor2> JamesTait: I'm currently listening to Robert miles Children
[15:36] <daftykins> now there's a blast from the past, the ol' instrumental track
[15:36] <JamesTait> davmor2, name rings a bell.  I remember the entire world going ga-ga over it.  Can't bring the song to mind, though, my brain keeps playing Tubular Bells.
[15:36] <daftykins> :D quick piano work, was that one
[15:37] <daftykins> or more keyboard, really
[15:38] <JamesTait> davmor2, indeed.  :)
[15:38] <JamesTait> daftykins, even.
[15:38] <JamesTait> This heat is getting to me.
[15:39] <davmor2> JamesTait: there was that and Mark snows X-files music at similar times
[15:39] <daftykins> mmm, i woke up in a 27 deg C bedroom
[15:39] <daftykins> not nice at all
[15:40] <davmor2> daftykins: could of been worse, could of been a 72 deg C bedroom in which case the place is likely on fire
[15:40] <daftykins> lol
[15:40] <daftykins> i wonder if the cat would wake me in such a case
[15:41] <davmor2> daftykins: no it would just leg it
[15:41] <JamesTait> daftykins, it would wake you if it were hungry.
[15:42] <daftykins> :D
[15:43] <davmor2> oh moby extreme ways nice
[15:50] <davmor2> I should hit shuffle on rhythmbox more often now into all along the watchtower :D
[15:50] <daftykins> it's great until you go from really light, to really heavy
[15:51] <daftykins> or it starts playing that thing you don't know because you've intended to get around to trying it but never quite did
[15:53] <davmor2> daftykins: Most of my music is 70's 80's and early 90's with the odd bit from 2000's there is no such thing as too heavy ;)
[15:55] <daftykins> i've been on the Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and so on a lot of late
[16:02] <davmor2> oh dirty diana and now back in black
[16:20] <diddledan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60eKauWFFPk
[18:20] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sdew7skkm4nqvtu/AAA0XrUF4J0Cd2pmw3lSCaZ6a
[18:20] <daftykins> I've been operating on laptops again :)
[18:33] <penguin42> ah yes, I think I see your problem, look closely at the right on image 12
[18:36] <diddledan> yeah, it looks like it's got the vista defect
[18:37] <daftykins> it's running ubuntu 12.04 :>
[18:38] <daftykins> horrible, horrible design... LCD off to get the motherboard out
[19:00] <mapps> urgh tpp hpt and sticky here
[19:02] <penguin42> here as well
[19:04] <mapps> its hard to feel like doing anything
[19:04] <mapps> dont wanna sit at my pc..dont wanna watch tv
[19:04] <mapps> lol
[19:08] <daftykins> :D
[19:08] <penguin42> sleep?
[19:09] <daftykins> one cannot sleep in this! ;)
[19:10] <mapps> pff
[19:10] <mapps> man thats hard in this heat
[19:10] <mapps> i wakeip 2-3x and hot as
[19:10] <mapps> cant open windows too much traffic
[19:13] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6t0sm44w12zssu/IMG_20140725_201133.jpg
[19:13] <daftykins> ah much improved temps
[19:14] <daftykins> hey mapps check out this surgery - ;) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sdew7skkm4nqvtu/AAA0XrUF4J0Cd2pmw3lSCaZ6a
[19:15] <foobarry> got a possible corrupted fs
[19:16] <foobarry>  mount /dev/sdd1 /mnt/usb/
[19:16] <foobarry> mount: you must specify the filesystem type
[19:16] <foobarry> is there anything like e2fsck for ext4?
[19:17] <foobarry> if indeed it is ext4 :S the label just say linux
[19:17] <daftykins> do you not always specify the fs? i do
[19:17] <daftykins> "mount -t ext4 /dev/sdd1 /mnt/usb"
[19:20]  * penguin42 doesn't normally - it normally figures it out
[19:20] <foobarry> mount -t ext4 /dev/sdd1 /mnt/usb
[19:20] <foobarry> mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sdd1, missing codepage or helper program, or other error In some cases useful info is found in syslog - try dmesg | tail  or so
[19:20] <foobarry> [ 3253.906616] EXT4-fs (sdd1): VFS: Can't find ext4 filesystem
[19:21] <penguin42> foobarry: fsck should check it and run the ext4 fsck
[19:21] <penguin42> foobarry: so just do fsck /dev/sdd1 - are you sure it's sdd1 ?
[19:21] <foobarry> fsck.ext2: Superblock invalid, trying backup blocks...
[19:21] <foobarry> fsck.ext2: Bad magic number in super-block while trying to open /dev/sdd1
[19:21] <foobarry> The superblock could not be read or does not describe a valid ext2/ext3/ext4
[19:21] <foobarry> /dev/sdd1            2048   156249999    78123976   83  Linux
[19:22] <foobarry> it was working before i unmounted it and brought it home from work :(
[19:22] <foobarry> e2fsck -b 32768 /dev/sdd1
[19:22] <foobarry> e2fsck 1.42.9 (4-Feb-2014)
[19:22] <foobarry> e2fsck: Bad magic number in super-block while trying to open /dev/sdd1
[19:23] <foobarry> Partition Table: msdos
[19:23] <foobarry> hmmm
[19:24] <foobarry> nah that was not true
[19:24] <penguin42> foobarry: Go back a step, check /proc/partitions to see what you think is your device is there and the right size
[19:25] <foobarry> yep its there
[19:27] <penguin42> damn, the simple things are always easier
[19:27] <penguin42> foobarry: ok, does fdisk  onthe device show you what you expect
[19:27] <foobarry> installing testdisk
[19:27] <foobarry> and crying
[19:27] <foobarry> *may not be crying
[19:29] <penguin42> if it was a physically bad disk it would be moaning in the log
[19:32] <foobarry> thats why i think corrupt fs
[19:32] <foobarry> testdisk is listing the files!
[19:32] <penguin42> what did you do to it last?
[19:33] <foobarry> unmounted and put in my bag
[19:35] <penguin42> oh well, if you're going to do dangerous things like that
[19:35] <daftykins> XD
[19:35] <foobarry> slaps penguin42 with a fish
[19:36] <foobarry> strangely testdisk sees the partition and files
[19:40]  * penguin42 grabs it
[19:40] <daftykins> love this HP's ubuntu install
[19:40] <daftykins> "723 packages can be updated"
[19:40] <daftykins> "318 updates are security updates"
[19:41] <penguin42> daftykins: We do get lots of updates
[19:41] <daftykins> this person's never done one XD
[19:42] <foobarry> thankyou Jesus and testdisk
[19:42] <foobarry> \o/
[19:44] <foobarry> 74G   56G   14G  81% /mnt/usb
[19:46] <davmor2> daftykins: set it to autoupdate security updates
[19:46] <foobarry> ther's a package for that
[19:46] <foobarry> autocron?
[19:47] <Myrtti> unattended-upgrades
[19:47] <davmor2> foobarry: what Myrtti said
[19:47] <foobarry> that it be
[19:48] <daftykins> davmor2: it's being wiped
[19:48] <daftykins> now i've fixed it, it's miiiiine
[19:49] <daftykins> although it has a broken DVD drive
[19:49] <davmor2> daftykins: back to windows vista then right?
[19:49] <daftykins> ugh, i'd rather not install that :)
[19:49] <daftykins> i'm not sure what to do with it, a 1.9GHz Athlon 64 X2 with 2GB RAM isn't all that
[19:50] <Jay_> hi
[19:50] <daftykins> hello
[19:51] <davmor2> foobarry: or via http://davmor2.co.uk/~davmor2/screenshots-desktop/autoupdate.png
[19:51] <davmor2> Damn Stairway to Heaven is a good track
[19:52] <Jay_> does one of you guys know if there is a way to add a dummy option (one that will not be used by a program) to a shell cmd line. So that you could more easily track the process via PS
[19:52] <penguin42> which process?
[19:53] <penguin42> Jay_: A lot of processes ignore stuff after --   or at least don't treat them as options any more
[19:53] <Jay_> But would it still appear if looking for it via ps aux | grep
[19:54] <foobarry> Jay_: can you give a more concrete example
[19:54] <Jay_> yes
[19:54] <foobarry> they may be a better way
[19:54] <foobarry> e.g using the alias command
[19:54] <Jay_> for example, for any process you could add - - id 123456789
[19:54] <foobarry> why not just track the pid?
[19:55] <Jay_> then you could find the id of the previously launch process by doing ps aux | grep 123456789
[19:55] <Jay_> well
[19:55] <Jay_> sometimes when you launch a program by cmd line
[19:55] <Jay_> the process id often changes
[19:55] <foobarry> um
[19:55] <foobarry> do you mean a shell script that spawns a new one?
[19:55] <foobarry> they will have the same parent id
[19:56] <Jay_> I mean if I launch a program via a python script with Popen for example
[19:56] <Jay_> subprocess module will report a different pid, for example 450; when the actual pid is 451
[19:57] <penguin42> Jay_: pstree is one thing that helps
[19:57] <foobarry> check the PPID column
[19:59] <Jay_> Didn't think of that, gonna look into it, thanks!
[19:59] <foobarry> np
[20:01] <foobarry> long daddy day with teh kids tomorrow
[20:01] <foobarry> nighty night all
[20:10] <DJones> AlanBell: Might be interesting read (assuming your still on irc) https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/elibrary/case/toulouse-saves-1-million-euro-libreoffice
[20:21]  * DJones reminds himself, never go shopping with your wife, it gets expensive when it comes to cars
[20:23] <penguin42> ohoh, what did you buy?
[20:31] <mapps> anyone got any idea why my shoutcast is still showing my old ip for streamurl from sc_trans_basic.conf ..edited the file checked etc
[20:31] <mapps> http://frogs.zapto.org:8000/index.html?sid=1
[20:32] <mapps> <IP_ADDRESS> ismy old ip streamurl now set to my dyndns
[21:27] <zleap> ok anyone here remember windows 3.1
[21:27] <zleap> ?
[21:28] <Myrtti> 3.11 for Networks
[21:28] <zleap> http://wiki.tcl.tk/8595 -
[21:28] <zleap> sorry wrong link
[21:28] <zleap> Myrtti, http://zleap.net/dosbox-and-win3-1/
[21:28] <Myrtti> nice
[21:28] <zleap> 3 seconds to load
[21:29] <zleap> i think
[21:51] <zleap> Myrtti, my next task is to test on the pi
[21:53] <Myrtti> I've been fiddling with irssi theming agani
[21:54] <Myrtti> compiled the RC few days back, it's got 256 color support
[21:54] <Myrtti> decided to redo an old theme of mine that ten years ago I wished I had had 256 colours in my use
[21:55] <Myrtti> it looks absolutely horrid, but so does the original
[22:03] <zleap> ok pi + dosbox + win3.1
[22:19] <Myrtti> smile, you're on a screenshot!
[22:20] <penguin42> ohoh
[22:22] <Myrtti> https://flic.kr/p/osV65o :-D
[22:28] <mapps> do i go out tonight or not
[22:28] <mapps> hmm
[22:31] <penguin42> Myrtti: well, it's an interesting colour scheme you have
[22:34] <daftykins> too much pink!
[22:34] <Myrtti> https://plus.google.com/u/0/100016383867666174158/posts/daGJhqm4f9A
[22:36] <penguin42> ah, yes, it's getting there - have you considered changing the background?
[22:36] <Myrtti> why would I, I love my Studio Ghibli one ♥ http://imgur.com/gallery/wTApy
[22:36] <penguin42> yellow should help in your aim
[22:36] <penguin42> no, I meant of the irc terminal
[22:36] <Myrtti> no, black is fine.
[22:36] <penguin42> but it's far too readable
[22:37] <Myrtti> I'm not a total idiot... it even works if tmux isn't playing ball
[22:37] <Myrtti> then it looks almost like my old roses.theme
[22:49] <dwatkins> anyone in the UK around who could run a get_iplayer command for me, please?
[22:49] <dwatkins> get_iplayer --pid p02169t0
[22:49] <dwatkins> I seem to get a corrupted file, sadly.
[22:49] <dwatkins> It's a Mogwai gig from Glastonbury.
[22:49] <Myrtti> I would but our home server has a harddrive on the blink and it's time for bed
[22:50] <Myrtti> good night
[22:50] <dwatkins> np, sleep well Myrtti :)
[22:51] <dwatkins> If anyone manages to grab it this weekend at some point, please PM me, thanks.
[22:58] <daftykins> Mogwai!
[22:58] <daftykins> \o/
[23:03] <daftykins> i'm giving it a try
[23:04] <penguin42> is this still the fallout from the beebs screwup the other day?
[23:07] <daftykins> they had a screwup?
[23:07] <penguin42> a big outage for a few days
[23:08] <daftykins> nasty!
[23:09] <penguin42> daftykins: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/posts/BBC-Online-outage
[23:09] <daftykins> ty sir
[23:15] <daftykins> 90%
[23:18] <daftykins> dwatkins: worked ok here sir, shall transfer to a web server and link you momentarily


[19:15] <mark06> how to merge a branch without a common ancestor?
[19:17] <fullermd> Manually specify the rev range to merge.  Usually the whole history, i.e. "-r0..-1".
[19:18] <jelmer> I wonder if we should just add that as suggestion to the error message.
[19:18] <fullermd> I'd hesitate, I think.
[19:22] <fullermd> Worth a FAQ entry, maybe.  If we have a FAQ.
[19:30] <mark06> I think clarify the error message would be nice, because I went through exactly the same steps as described here, without knowing this page: http://selfdocumentingcode.blogspot.com.br/2009/04/merging-unrelated-branches-in-bazaar.html
[19:32] <mark06> is there a way to specify a bug in commit comment without using full URL?
[19:33] <mark06> I want to reference bug 308562 in the dummy initial commit
[19:33] <jelmer> mark06: there is the --fixes option which adds a commit property
[19:33] <mark06> I know, but it doesn't fix the above bug :)
[19:33] <jelmer> mark06: it allows you to use shortcuts for bug tracker URLs
[19:34] <jelmer> mark06: --fixes lp:4545 will reference http://bugs.launchpad.net/4545
[19:35] <mark06> ok, I know, but it doesn't fix that bug, it's that bug which required the commit, so would be rather --forced-by
[19:35] <jelmer> mark06: I'm not sure I follow what you mean in that case
[19:35] <jelmer> mark06: do you want to reference a bug without actually changing anything else?
[19:36] <jelmer> mark06: you want --unchanged in that case
[19:36] <mark06> I'm already using --unchanged
[19:36] <fullermd> I think you're just trying to outsmart yourself   :)
[19:36] <mark06> I want to reference the bug in the commit comment, something like:
[19:36] <fullermd> Just reference "LP bug 12345" in the commit message.
[19:37] <fullermd> ISDN?  Yeesh.  How 1990's   :p
[19:37] <mark06> yeah fullermd, just wondered if it was possible
[19:37] <jelmer> mark06: Why though? This is what the commit properties are used for, and what all bzr tools will display
[19:38] <jelmer> Having two different ways of referencing bugs would seem very confusing to me, and not particularly useful.
[19:39] <mark06> jelmer: ...something like: bzr commit -m "This is a dummy, empty commit required because of bug lp:308562"
[19:41] <jelmer> mark06: ah, no, there isn't any way to do that. I don't think that would be particularly useful.
[19:42] <mark06> btw, it would be nice if tags weren't unique, or if we had options like --not-very-important (e.g. code formatting) --broken (for broken revisions we don't open a bug for)
[19:43] <mark06> about the dummy commit, nothing much important
[19:43] <mark06> or --fixes=revision
[19:43] <jelmer> mark06: what do you mean with --not-very-important, what would that do?
[19:45] <mark06> add a metadata to the commit stating it is not as important as "regular" commits, so we could for example bzr qlog --exclude-not-much-important
[19:45] <jelmer> mark06: one of the fundamental properties of tags is that they're unique; without that; if you want to use them to annotate revisions I think what you want is a different feature (perhaps stored as revision property?)
[19:45] <mark06> yeah, as a property then...
[19:46] <mark06> is it possible to add arbitrary properties and have them showing in qlog juts like tags or --fixes?
[19:47] <jelmer> mark06: you'd have to have a plugin installed that can display those properties
[19:47] <jelmer> similarly though, you'd need a plugin to set them
[19:48] <mark06> :(
[19:51] <mark06> what's the difference between -r 0..-1 and -r 1..-1?
[19:51] <fullermd> 1   8-}
[19:52] <fullermd> The former runs from null, the latter from rev1.  Just what the result is probably varies a bit by command and how they interpret the rev range.
[19:53] <Guest40826> Could someone explain to me the relationship between repositories and branches in bzr?
[19:54] <jelmer> Guest40826: the repository is the thing that holds the revisions, and a branch is a line of history
[19:54] <mark06> how about the merge command, does it make any difference like merging uncommitted commits or something?
[19:55] <fullermd> mark06: Yes, -r1..-1 would mean the revs {2,3,4,...,-1}, in contrast to 0..-1 meaning {1,2,3,...,-1}
[19:55] <Guest40826> So, if I want to have two completely separate projects, would I create two separate repositories for them?
[19:56] <jelmer> Guest40826: no, you can have them in the same repository without problems. The repository is merely a container for the revisions, it doesn't require them to be related in any way and it doesn't have any effect on their relation either.
[19:57] <fullermd> However, if they really are completely separate, there would be no _gain_ from having them both in the same repo.
[19:57] <jelmer> indeed
[19:57] <fullermd> Potentially a minor loss in performance in some cases, since half (or whatever proportion) of the data to be sorted through would be pointless for any individual activity.
[19:58] <mark06> fullermd: ah thanks!
[19:58] <fullermd> Probably pretty unimportant, unless either branch is huge.
[19:58] <Guest40826> So, I could create one repository (using the init-repo command?) that would have multiple branches inside of it (created using the init command?) and could develop two different codebases within that one repository?
[19:59] <Guest40826> Do I have that right?
[19:59] <jelmer> Guest40826: yep
[19:59] <fullermd> You could, yes.  The repository doesn't care; all it knows is it gets told "find me revision XYZ" or "here's a revision; hold onto it"
[19:59] <mark06> maybe just create standalone branches (each branch contains its own repo)
[20:00] <Guest40826> mark06: What do you mean by that?
[20:00] <fullermd> Guest40826: What's your VCS background?
[20:00] <Guest40826> almost strictly svn
[20:01] <fullermd> OK.  So the difference here is that svn is very repo-centric, whereas bzr is branch-centric.
[20:01] <fullermd> In svn, the repo boundary is important.  You checkout the whole thing, or some arbitrary subpart of it.  All your operations take place inside it.
[20:02] <fullermd> Whereas in bzr, you deal only with branches; the whole branch, and nothing but the branch.  You checkout the whole thing, you make a new branch of the whole thing, etc.
[20:02] <fullermd> Operations like merge take place between two branches.  And any two branches; they don't have to be in the same repo (or in any shared repos at all)
[20:03] <Guest40826> okay, so what is a standalone branch?
[20:03] <Guest40826> (mentioned by mark06)
[20:03] <fullermd> Whether a branch is in a shared repo or not doesn't make any difference to how you interact with it; it only changes some backend storage details.
[20:03] <fullermd> A branch that's not in a shared repo.
[20:04] <fullermd> How about an example...
[20:04] <fullermd> "mkdir ~/work ; cd ~/work ; bzr init projA ; bzr init projB"
[20:05] <fullermd> Now you've got two unrelated branches to work in, each of which is standalone.  All the history for projA is in ~/work/projA, and for projB in ~/work/projB.
[20:05] <fullermd> Or add a step instead:
[20:05] <fullermd> "mkdir ~/work ; cd ~/work ; bzr init-repo . ; bzr init projA ; bzr init projB"
[20:06] <fullermd> Now you've got two unrelated branches to work in, both of which use the shared repo for their history storage.
[20:06] <fullermd> Inside ~/work/ is a giant bucket that all the revisions get dumped into.  projA knows which of them belong to it, and projB know which belong to it.
[20:06] <fullermd> For pretty much anything you _do_ day to day, the two cases are identical.
[20:07] <fullermd> Unlike svn, the repo isn't [generally] a semantically meaningful unit.  It's the branches that are the granularity you work with.
[20:07] <fullermd> And in this case, it doesn't convey any advantages, since the two projects don't share any history.
[20:08] <fullermd> Where it's useful is when you have projA-trunk/ and projA-frob_foo/ and projA-from_bar/ branches, which _are_ related.
[20:08] <fullermd> Standalone, each would have the entire history (both the stuff common to all of them, and the new stuff in each)
[20:09] <fullermd> With a shared repo, all the history is in one place, so the common history isn't duplicated.  Saves disk space, I/O bandwidth, buffer cache, etc.
[20:09] <Guest40826> Here is my situation: I have two development teams, neither of which has any relationship to the other (outside of that fact that they have them same system admin). Team A is dealing with one codebase, Team B is dealing with two codebases (for two entirely separate pieces of software). I want to give Team B one domain at which they can access both codebases and choose which one to modify based on what they are going to be working on.
[20:10] <Guest40826> Which sounds to me like one repo with two branches in it for Team B.
[20:11] <fullermd> Is that 3 codebases, or 2 (one shared, one B-only)?
[20:11] <Guest40826> 3 total - one for team A, the other two for team B
[20:11] <fullermd> I'd just make one repo for each codebase then.
[20:12] <fullermd> Sharing a repo between unrelated codebases doesn't gain you anything, so go for simplicity.
[20:12] <Guest40826> okay
[20:14] <Guest40826> so how do I serve those two repos for team B at the same domain?
[20:14] <Guest40826> Just by placing the two repos in the same directory and giving team B access to that parent?
[20:14] <fullermd> Yeah.
[20:15] <fullermd> How are you accessing them?  bzr+ssh?
[20:15] <Guest40826> That is another question I have :(
[20:15] <Guest40826> Is there a difference between bzr and bzr+ssh
[20:15] <Guest40826> ?
[20:16] <fullermd> bzr is a standalone server, like svn://.  bzr+ssh ssh's into the server and talks to a spawned process over that channel, like svn+ssh
[20:17] <Guest40826> so I bzr:// what you would use when running the http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.2.5/en/admin-guide/other-setups.html#direct-smart-server-access setup?
[20:17] <Guest40826> *is
[20:18] <fullermd> Note that bzr doesn't have any concept of AAA, so in general you'd only use it for readonly stuff.
[20:18] <fullermd> (bzr:// that is)
[20:18] <Guest40826> Okay,
[20:18] <Guest40826> I am going to be accessing this using bzr+ssh
[20:19] <Guest40826> With user accounts being restricted to bzr
[20:28] <mark06> http://i.imgur.com/z0zsX.png o/
[20:32] <fullermd> Definitely an odd use of tags.
[20:42] <mark06> actually I changed it to fixes_rev_0.11.5 on 0.11.6
[20:43] <fullermd> Yeah, that would also fall under "pretty odd"   :p
[20:45] <mark06> yeah I know :)
[20:46] <mark06> oh wait, fixed_by_0.11.6 :)
[20:47]  * fullermd reaches for the smelling salts.
[20:54] <mark06> I think I've found a bug, if merged branch contains tags already present in current branch, then it gets deleted after merge! (current branch wins the tag)
[20:55] <fullermd> That's not exactly a bug.
[21:07] <mark06> I would personally add a merge conflict to let the user decide
[21:07] <fullermd> The trouble is, there's no way to record a resolution.
[21:08] <fullermd> Actually, I'd expect merge to spit out a warning about it.  pull does.  But maybe it gets lost in all the other stuff merge outputs.
[21:09] <fullermd> I guess it doesn't.  That's probably worth a bug.
[21:21] <mark06> hmm ok leaving... thank you all!
[22:25] <fullermd> Oh look, a Wacky Log Bug.
[22:27] <jelmer> fullermd: where?
[22:28] <fullermd> I'm gonna have to work up a repro script.  's hard to explain, but it winds up with "bzr log $DIR" (or $FILE I presume) not showing you what it should.
[22:29] <Konomi> hi I am trying to use checkout and I am doing bzr checkout sftp://user:pass@host
[22:30] <Konomi> and bazaar seems to ignore hte pass field entirely and still ask for a password
[22:30] <fullermd> That's because bzr doesn't have access to the password-asking; sftp talks to your terminal directly for that.
[22:30] <Konomi> is there anyway to automate it at all?
[22:30] <Konomi> I get sick of typing in a password everytime?
[22:32] <fullermd> Use key auth (possibly with the aid of ssh-agent).
[22:33] <Konomi> meh okay thanks for your help fullermd
[22:34] <fullermd> Possibly you could force it to use paramiko instead of an outside ssh client, and pass it in that way?  I dunno.  Not as nice a solution at any rate.
[22:35] <Konomi> what is a bit annoying is http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.1.11/developers/authentication-ring.html
[22:35] <Konomi> says I can embed the pass in the url but I guess it doesn't note the exception for sftp
[22:37] <Konomi> fullermd: I'll just put up with entering the password for now at least I know the url is remembered I was typing that too
[22:37] <Konomi> thanks again
[23:03] <fullermd> Boy, this thing is tricksy...
[23:21] <lifeless> fullermd: which thing ?
[23:21] <fullermd> Weird log bug I'm tracking.
[23:27] <bob2> why would you not just use keys
[23:29] <lifeless> harmony
[23:30] <fullermd> Yeah, you might be Berg or Schoenberg.
[23:31] <bob2> it is far too early on a monday for classical music jokes
[23:31] <fullermd> Good thing it's late on a sunday   8-}
[23:53]  * fullermd writes up a terribly confusing bug...


[08:11] <frankiee_> Hi! I'm trying to install lubuntu (32-bit) via a bootable DVD ISO on a HP Pavillion dv1000 with an Intel Celeron 1.40GHz (480MB RAM).
[08:11] <frankiee_> But I'm getting: WARNING! PAE disabled. Use the parameter 'forcepae' to enable at your own risk. This kernel requires the following features not enabled on the CPU: Unable to boot - please use a kernel appropriate for your CPU.
[08:11] <frankiee_> I found out the only solution is to install lubuntu 12. But is that + a `do-release-upgrade` all I need to get lubuntu up to v16? Thanks!
[08:15] <Unit193> Well 12.04 did support it, but since it's the kernel there it's not so much a "workaround" as much as a "Last supported in" type of deal.
[08:23] <frankiee_> I see I see
[08:40] <JohnDoe_71Rus> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1548092
[13:54] <BadPuppers> Would you recommend lubuntu for a not-too-bad pc?
[13:54] <BadPuppers> It's got a core 2 duo, 4gb ram, and a dedicated graphics card.
[14:05] <hateball> BadPuppers: I dont see why not
[14:05] <hateball> BadPuppers: But hardware wise it is perfectly capable of running a "heavier" DE as well, if that is your concern


[16:01] <jadams> hey, so I have a problem where a command I start in a subshell in an upstart script won't die on service stop.  Some discussion around the problem is here: https://github.com/ddollar/foreman/issues/97
[16:01] <jadams> essentially, the command I ran after the && in my "su - foo -c "a && b" won't stop
[16:01] <jadams> in that example, stopping the service would kill a but not b
[16:35] <xnox> jadams: correct you should have a second upstart job to run b which is "started on stopped a" (sequential)
[16:35] <xnox> jadams: also see "setuid" and "setgid" stanzas which may possibly replace "su" for you.
[16:53]  * SpamapS wishes we could have setuid per-executable
[16:53] <SpamapS> so that pre-start can be root
[17:05] <jadams> xnox: yeah, so it ultimately seems to come down to this problem: https://gist.github.com/knewter/5671928
[17:06] <jadams> xnox: so ultimately, I'm dealing with a ruby app on a deploy, and so my foo actually modifies the current environment (it's an rvm script runner), so I actually just want to run it before running the second command


[07:56] <uros1> hello people, greetings from Serbia LoCo
[07:56] <uros1> we are making some material for nexte release and we need official logo for 12.10
[07:56] <uros1> in svg
[07:57] <uros1> can anybody point me where to find it?


[02:00] <kc2bez> I miss the bot :( If only there was a way to fix that ;)
 Woops, today was thursday
 Yeah, we've missed a few of them. The holidays seem to have been a contributing factor.
 understood
 @kc2bez [<kc2bez> I miss the bot :( If only there was a way to fix that ;)], How late will you be around? When I'm done with my workout in about an hour to hour and a half I can show you
 @HMollerCl [Woops, today was thursday], Well we all know the big news ;) but agreed
 @tsimonq2 [How late will you be around? When I'm done with my workout in about an hour to h …], Otherwise some other day; I can document it all and just give you the details. Up to you
 @tsimonq2 [Otherwise some other day; I can document it all and just give you the details. U …], We can do it some other time, I was mostly just giving you a little jab :) I hope to be sleeping by then XD
 Okay :)
 No worries
 big news did I miss something?
 @The_LoudSpeaker became a Lubuntu developer today.
[02:32] <guiverc> Congatulations @The_LoudSpeaker !
[02:33] <guiverc> (& well done, keep up the good work)
 I think wxl would agree that he reminds me a little of...myself pre-MOTU :)
 super enthusiastic
[03:20] <wxl>
[04:03] <wxl> @kc2bez i thought we were going to get @teward001 to give you ssh access to you could kick the bot
[04:05] <wxl> @tsimonq2 i think if you look at my last comment on raman's application, you'll see i most certainly agree with you
 @guiverc [<guiverc> Congatulations @The_LoudSpeaker !], Thanks!
[12:50] <guiverc> I just noticed a bug in #ubuntu-bugs-announce; crash when non-english is used for install (kub 19.10); maybe we should have testcase (any combination but NOT default-english language)
 Nice idea. We should add it to testing-checklist.
 We all can test in our own languages. I am excited to install in Hindi.
[13:15] <guiverc> :(  it doesn't support 'ocker'  (bad aussie mangled-english)
 @HMollerCl [@tsimonq2 pulled, need something else to appear in the daily?], @tsimonq2 ^ do I need to do something more so package is updated?
 @wxl [<wxl> @kc2bez i thought we were going to get @teward001 to give you ssh access t …], were we?
 nobody told me :P
[18:47] <wxl> @teward001 yeah please give kc2bez ssh access :)
[20:50] <wxl> focal daily didn't build like normal today. i bumped it and now we have an image again
 Do we know what the issue was there?
 I pushed the new Cala yesterday we should probably check that soon too.
[21:03] <wxl> @tsimonq2 looks like infra issues
[21:03] <wxl> there wasn't even a build log
 @wxl [<wxl> @tsimonq2 looks like infra issues], Oh nice
[21:03] <wxl> it did attempt to build for 75 minutes, but no clue what it was doing
 weird
[21:04] <wxl> i'm thinking perhaps it stalled and then hit some timeout
[21:04] <wxl> RikMills suggested that not having logs does happen sometimes with such infrastructure issues
[21:06] <RikMills> I know it does. not usual, but when you have done 1000's, you see it every once in a while
[21:08] <wxl> i might kick bionic too
 It would be a nice project for someone to figure out how to make latest LTS builds not fail once in a while because of kernel dep messes
 Like just make it retry itself once, which usually fixes the issue...
[21:09] <wxl> could easily be done in the cronjob
 Does not help that they build with proposed pocket!
 The only issue with that is that the automatic retry should happen iff it's a kernel dep issue
 @RikMills [Does not help that they build with proposed pocket!], Right
[21:10] <wxl> why is eoan still on the iso tracker manifest?
 Next time a build fails like that, I might be motivated to get to the bottom of it
 @wxl [<wxl> why is eoan still on the iso tracker manifest?], Probably because of 19.10.1 Pi images
 But I'd personally poke Adam and sil2100
 (sil2100 did the release but Adam actually uses a bouncer...)
[21:11] <wxl> i mean i don't care all that much. it's just messy
 I suspect, but don't know for sure, that sil2100 either doesn't know how to remove it or didn't remember
 That's okay though, like I said I think it's a pretty easy fix...
 I also think that most of the usual Canonicallers modulo IS may be out on vac
[21:13] <wxl> the cron job could just wait a couple hours, test for the iso a la http, and failing that, rebuild
 BY THE WAY wxl, modulo is the correct word in this situation. I've been waiting months to make my point on this
 So for example 10 % 3? That's 1
[21:13] <wxl> yes dear
[21:14] <wxl> anyways bionic is showing the same symptoms
 Modulo is the remainder given a certain division operation
 So, yes :)
 Anyway
 and...................?
[21:14] <wxl> livefs doesn't build, fails to go to sync https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/lubuntu/bionic/daily-live-20191227.log
 @RikMills [and...................?], At one point wxl said I didn't know what I was talking about and I just remembered that conversation
[21:14] <wxl> if you go track down the buildlog for livefs, you won't find it https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/bionic/lubuntu/+build/196949 e.g.
[21:14] <wxl> i don't think i said that
[21:14] <wxl> although you often don't know what you're talking about :)
 @wxl [<wxl> the cron job could just wait a couple hours, test for the iso a la http, a …], Right, but I'm not sure we can automatically assume all bionic failures are due to this
 @wxl [<wxl> i don't think i said that], Yes you did
[21:15] <wxl> go find the logs or it didn't happen
[21:15] <wxl> anyways
 @wxl [<wxl> although you often don't know what you're talking about :)], Only sometimes; sometimes I do "fake it until I make it"
[21:15] <wxl> i hit the rebuild but no activity so far http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/384/builds
[21:15] <wxl> ah there it goes
[21:15] <wxl> jeez
[21:16] <wxl> infra IS in bad shap
[21:16] <wxl> e
 @wxl [<wxl> i hit the rebuild but no activity so far http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracke …], Rebuilds are on a five min cronjob
 So if you request it at FOO:12 it won't ever build until FOO:15
 Etc.
 I think it throws it into an SQL database which Nusakan just reads from every five minutes...
 Not really ideal but hey, it works
 Updating in real time would just waste some CPU heat
 @RikMills [Updating in real time would just waste some CPU heat], Yeah, I don't think that the benefit of having it happen instantly outweighs the engineering cost of implementing it
 But it is worth noting that such a delay exists
[21:49] <wxl> weird the bionic log is truncated but it seems to have published https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/lubuntu/bionic/daily-live-20191227.1.log


[14:59] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[14:59] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct  6 14:59:20 2011 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[14:59] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20111006
[15:00] <janimo> hi
[15:01] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-arm.html
[15:02]  * davidm waves
[15:02] <ogra_> i dont think we need to look at specs for O
[15:02]  * NCommander waves back
[15:02] <NCommander> Yeah
[15:02] <ogra_> lets use the time at the end to look at ÜP specs instead
[15:02] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
[15:03]  * davidm is upset that the HTC Flyer pricing was a mistake
[15:03] <NCommander> ogra_: I have nothing drafted for a meeting on it. We can do that next week
[15:04] <NCommander> server side, I have nothing new to report
[15:04] <ogra_> NCommander, we need to have the drafts registered by next week
[15:04] <NCommander> ogra_: I'm aware.
[15:04] <ogra_> so we need to discuss them today
[15:05] <ogra_> at least who adds which
[15:05] <NCommander> ogra_: then I'd appericate it if you had asked me to bring it up before the meeting or even put it on the agenda.
[15:05] <ogra_> (and i doubt we have anything beyond banshee to discuss at all anyway)
[15:05] <ogra_> NCommander, will do next time, but that doesnt change the deadline now :)
[15:06] <ogra_> and you just said you are aware
[15:06] <NCommander> ogra_: we have the P Blueprints page, and we've gone over it in this meeting before.
[15:07] <ogra_> right
[15:07] <ogra_> who registers and drafts which one then ?
[15:07] <ogra_> i assume david will not do all he has assigned
[15:08] <NCommander> I'm drafting all the ARM server ones and will assign them after UDS after discussions with the team
[15:08] <GrueMaster> sigh.  Can we stick to the agenda?  I have added Blueprints to the meeting wiki.
[15:08] <ppisati> NCommander: anything kernel related?
[15:08] <ogra_> GrueMaster, thanks !
[15:08] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel status
[15:08] <NCommander> ppisati: not to my knowledge, anything to report?
[15:09] <ogra_> yes, lets stick to the agenda, i didnt mean to start a discussion (since i thought it was clear we have to do it today)
[15:09] <ppisati> nothing new to report this week
[15:09] <janimo> no new ac100 either, I was kind of hoping upstream fixes speaker sound - ongoing
[15:09] <ppisati> NCommander: nope, that's why i was asking
[15:09] <ogra_> janimo, its fixed :)
[15:09] <ogra_> janimo, see #ac100
[15:09] <ogra_> janimo, time for a zero day SRU i'd say ;)
[15:10] <ogra_> (after some testing)
[15:10] <janimo> ogra_, well, marvin says one more patch is pening
[15:10] <janimo> pending
[15:10] <ogra_> k
[15:10] <infinity> If the patchset is small, I'd accept it today. :P
[15:10] <infinity> But 0-day works too.
[15:10] <ogra_> ppisati, xranby reported stability issues on omap4
[15:11] <ogra_> i assume GrueMaster doesnt do many heavy load tests so that went unnoticed it seems
[15:11] <janimo> indeed, would be nice to have it for release
[15:11] <ogra_> janimo, ++
[15:11] <ppisati> ogra_: i'll ping him
[15:11] <ogra_> great, there should also be a bug open already
[15:11] <GrueMaster> ogra_: I haven't been able to get past the installer on dailys.
[15:11] <ogra_> GrueMaster, yeah, thats what i mean :)
[15:11] <ppisati> omap4?
[15:11] <ogra_> yep
[15:12] <ogra_> panda
[15:12] <ppisati> uhm
[15:12] <ppisati> on cdimage i don't see any daily for omap (that is not a preinstalled one)
[15:13] <infinity> ppisati: All our images are preinstalled.
[15:13] <NCommander> except netboot
[15:13] <ppisati> btw, today i reinstalled an omap4 preinstalled and it was ok
[15:13] <GrueMaster> ppisati:The installer I am referring to is oem-config.  It is part of Ubiquity.
[15:13] <ogra_> great to hear !
[15:13] <ppisati> but yes, couldn;'t get ubiquity to start
[15:13] <GrueMaster> And is part of every preinstalled image.
[15:13] <infinity> ppisati: Couldn't get it to start?
[15:14] <ppisati> nope
[15:14] <ppisati> crash
[15:14] <infinity> ppisati: Was there a bug filed?
[15:15] <ppisati> infinity: didn't check, i thought there was something wrong on my side
[15:15] <infinity> Possibly.
[15:15] <ppisati> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity
[15:16] <ppisati> but it seems there are quite a bit open
[15:16] <ppisati> bugs
[15:17] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:17] <ogra_> banshee ! :)
[15:18] <ogra_> so lets make a decision ... since RC doesnt happen today we have a bit wiggle room
[15:18] <NCommander> GrueMaster: and I did some work on finding the root of the crash and some workaround attempts Allailed
[15:18] <GrueMaster> Sadly, it builds.  It even installs.
[15:18] <ogra_> NCommander, GrueMaster do you see any chance for a fix (even an SRU) in time ?
[15:18] <NCommander> ogra_: I say we ship withe banshee despite the breakge. Changing el seeds is el suidice IMHO at this point
[15:18] <ogra_> if not i'll change the seeds right after meeting
[15:19] <ogra_> NCommander, i have approval and RB was tested
[15:19] <NCommander> ogra_: I think the odds are on par with you quitting smoking:-/
[15:19] <davidm> what is the status  on banshee
[15:19] <davidm> I don't want to ship broken as it could be months for an SRU
[15:19] <ogra_> i only want to ship banshee if there are realistic chances that we can get a fix
[15:19] <GrueMaster> RB doesn't support ubuntuone from what I could tell.
[15:19] <NCommander> GrueMaster: it should
[15:20] <ogra_> davidcalle, i'll happily ship it broken if i can get a word from NCommander that there is a chance for a zero day SRU or some such
[15:20] <NCommander> RB support predated bansheesupport
[15:20] <GrueMaster> The banshee issue feels like a missing package or setting issue.
[15:20] <davidm> It does not but I don't care working player beats broken player with unknown repair
[15:20] <ogra_> if thats clearly impossible lets drop it
[15:20] <NCommander> the less dependence on a framework known to be dodgy on ARM, the happiler I am
[15:20] <ogra_> so its all based on michaels judgement
[15:21] <NCommander> ogra_: you gotapproval to ship RB. Make it happen
[15:21] <davidm> NCommander, what is the likely hood of a fix by next Thursday?
[15:21] <ogra_> and since he said that i would stop smoking before it gets fixyed ...
[15:21]  * ogra_ lights a cigarette and opens a terminal in the seeds dir :)
[15:22] <NCommander> davidm: Unlikely. Its crashing in pure mono code, and I've yet to get mdb to work properly under ARM
[15:22] <NCommander> davidm: nor has GrueMaster managed to getone going throguh MonoDevelop
[15:22] <ogra_> yeah, lets keep banshee for P :)
[15:22] <ogra_> how about ftbfs beyond banshee ?
[15:22] <GrueMaster> davidm: The fix could happen as early as today or as late as it takes.  In my opinion, it is not an easy nut to crack, even with debugging symbols.
[15:23] <davidm> OK then lets pursue RB for release, and fix banshee later if at all possible
[15:23] <ogra_> yep
[15:23] <ogra_> or concentrate on having a rock solid banshee in P
[15:23] <ogra_> and dont waste time on O
[15:23] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:23] <ogra_> they build and work
[15:23] <ogra_> for everyone bug GrueMaster
[15:24] <GrueMaster> For most people.
[15:24] <ogra_> s/bug/but even
[15:24] <janimo> mx5 is very slow though
[15:24] <ogra_> janimo, how is mx5 ?
[15:24] <ogra_> heh, snap
[15:25] <GrueMaster> I have yet to get through oem-config without it respawning several times.
[15:25] <janimo> everyone who tested it says the same
[15:25] <ogra_> well, it installs and its a "tech preview"
[15:25] <GrueMaster> on omap4.
[15:25] <janimo> GrueMaster, for me once it respanwed was the sign the system was installed
[15:25] <janimo> but hmm, maybe not ocnsistently
[15:25] <ogra_> janimo, that doesnt help
[15:25] <janimo> I know
[15:25] <GrueMaster> I believe the mx5 issues are swap related.  I seemed to get a bit better performance once I had a working swapfile.
[15:25] <ogra_> since you still have jasper and ubiquity installed then
[15:26] <GrueMaster> And no user account some of the time.
[15:26] <janimo> GrueMaster, but it has ~800Mb of RAM no? The beagle was snappier with less RAM
[15:26] <ogra_> GrueMaster, oh, intresting
[15:26] <ogra_> that indicates that it breaks reaqlly really early
[15:26] <GrueMaster> janimo: I thought it only had 512
[15:27] <infinity> 868432
[15:27] <ogra_> bug 868432
[15:27] <infinity> ogra_: No, that was the amount of RAM on an mx53loco. :P
[15:27] <ogra_> hmm
[15:27] <ogra_> lol
[15:28] <ogra_> NCommander, move ?
[15:28] <GrueMaster> On my system, last time I tried an image it failed to load the panel and several other issues until I had a working swapfile.
[15:28] <infinity> Well, swap is back on again.
[15:28] <ogra_> well, swap should be back
[15:29] <GrueMaster> I'll test today's image in a bit.
[15:30] <NCommander> [tpic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:30] <NCommander> we
[15:30] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
[15:32] <GrueMaster> I have spent most of the week tracking down the banshee issue.  I have ruled out possible SMP issues and for the most part, mono core and addons work from what I can tell by running other apps.
[15:32] <NCommander> GrueMaster: anything tobring up
[15:33] <GrueMaster> I have also been trying to get some feedback from banshee developers on the #banshee channel on irc.gnome.org.
[15:33] <GrueMaster> Will continue on those tracks today.
[15:33] <NCommander> k anything else?
[15:33] <GrueMaster> Daily image for today just booted through oem-config for me (and there was much rejoicing).
[15:34] <GrueMaster> Although there is a crash report I'll need to look at.
[15:35] <GrueMaster> Is unity-2d supposed to use the same settings as Unity for hiding the panel?  If so - fail.
[15:35] <GrueMaster> crash appears to be oem-config.  Maybe I'll have something useful to report on it.finally.
[15:35] <ogra_> i think the default is "2" in dconf-editor
[15:36] <ogra_> not sure which hide behavior that sets :P
[15:36] <ogra_> but there should be a description in the editor
[15:37] <GrueMaster> Ugh.  Can't report crash on oem-config because libgtk2.0-0 is out of date.
[15:37] <GrueMaster> There was no description in gconf-editor for that key.
[15:37] <ogra_> dconf...
[15:37] <ogra_> gconf is dead
[15:37] <GrueMaster> At least none that I saw.
[15:37] <GrueMaster> ok
[15:37] <GrueMaster> Will look later.
[15:38] <ogra_> if you still have gconf settings anywhere thats a bug
[15:38] <GrueMaster> Nothing else here.
[15:38] <infinity> Once this new apt builds, I might spin a new set of images.
[15:38] <infinity> Installer performance will seem a bit snappier.
[15:39] <infinity> For a 6 minute period or so that update-apt-xapian-index isn't killing your SD in the background. :P
[15:40] <GrueMaster> I would ask that everyone on the team with a working panda please try to do some testing with the daily desktop image.  I am seeing too many crashes for a good release.
[15:41]  * ogra_ didnt see any in the last image he tested
[15:41] <ogra_> that was a few days after beta
[15:42] <GrueMaster> Hence why I said "daily".  Beta was 2 weeks ago.
[15:42] <infinity> Oh, we need to get on ndec's case about the ti-omap-extras stuff actually existing for oneiric.
[15:43] <ogra_> GrueMaster, yes, i tested a dail
[15:43] <ogra_> y
[15:43] <ogra_> as i said
[15:43] <ogra_> a few days after ...
[15:43] <GrueMaster> today's daily.  A lot of packages have changed in the last two weeks.
[15:43] <ogra_> sure
[15:44] <ppisati> 6th Oct daily + morning dist-upgrade = ubiquity crash (at least here)
[15:44] <NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
[15:44] <GrueMaster> Just filed bug 869284.
[15:44]  * rsalveti waves
[15:44] <ogra_> i think i saw evan talk about that issue today
[15:44] <rsalveti> not much to report from the Linaro side this week, besides the planning for the 11.10 cycle
[15:44] <rsalveti> https://launchpad.net/linaro-ubuntu/+milestone/11.10
[15:45] <rsalveti> jcrigby pushed the fix for bug 867670 and bug 867650
[15:45] <rsalveti> but as SRU
[15:45] <rsalveti> still in progress
[15:45] <ogra_> rsalveti, how is the move to oneiric going ?
[15:46] <infinity> rsalveti: I need to talk to him about that.
[15:46] <infinity> rsalveti: But the fixes he pushed looked entirely suitable for release.
[15:46] <rsalveti> ogra_: we're still blocked with bugs at the linaro-image-tools
[15:46] <ogra_> :(
[15:46] <rsalveti> infinity: is it critical enough for the releasE?
[15:46] <rsalveti> ogra_: but we expect to have working images next week
[15:47] <ogra_> we too :)
[15:47] <infinity> rsalveti: Did we not want 4460 to work with oneiric images?
[15:47] <rsalveti> I'll also make sure the unity3d packages are in place, so we can demonstrate it with oneiric + latest sgx packages
[15:47] <infinity> rsalveti: It's not like we're respinning images post-release.
[15:47]  * ogra_ hugs rsalveti
[15:47] <ogra_> rsalveti, if you need me for PPA copying or anything, ping me
[15:48] <ogra_> (for 3D)
[15:48] <rsalveti> infinity: yeah, there's one issue for 4460 that might be important for the release
[15:48] <rsalveti> ogra_: sure, I'll let you know when I get it all working
[15:48] <infinity> rsalveti: The overheating one, at least.  But I thought I saw another.
[15:48] <rsalveti> but I should be able to have a PPA for that
[15:48] <infinity> rsalveti: Still, the installer setting your board on fire is bad enough. :P
[15:48] <rsalveti> infinity: yup :-)
[15:48] <rsalveti> infinity: let's talk about this at #ubuntu-arm then
[15:48] <ogra_> rsalveti, well, they eventually need to end up in the ti ppa
[15:49] <GrueMaster> meh.  Self-heating.
[15:49] <rsalveti> ogra_: oh, that's fine by me, thought we would like a separated ppa for that
[15:49] <ogra_> well, winter is near in the northern hemisphere ... probably the pandas know that ;)
[15:49] <rsalveti> once I have the packages all working I'll let you know, then we can make sure it lands at the proper ppa
[15:49]  * GrueMaster looks outside.  Near?
[15:49] <ogra_> rsalveti, well, whatever works, effectively panda is the only thing we can run it on atm
[15:50] <rsalveti> yeah
[15:50] <ogra_> so it makes sense to put it in the TI one i think
[15:51] <rsalveti> sure, and it's already enabled by default once you installed the sgx drivers
[15:51] <rsalveti> :-)
[15:51] <ogra_> right
[15:51] <rsalveti> that's all from my side
[15:51] <ogra_> NCommander, move
[15:52] <rsalveti> next week I should have all the planning for connect/uds in place
[15:52] <rsalveti> at least from my side
[15:52] <ogra_> NCommander, move !
[15:53] <ogra_> time is running out and we need to get the specs assigned
[15:54] <ogra_> davidm, did you see the recent additions to the spec ideas page ?
[15:54]  * ogra_ gets the feeling he talks to an empty room
[15:55]  * rsalveti is still around, but not important anymore
[15:55] <davidm> ogra_, nope have not
[15:55] <davidm> I'll have a look
[15:55] <ogra_> davidcalle, see the two smagoun buts at the bottom
[15:55] <ogra_> that looks like linaro material
[15:55] <NCommander> [topic blueprints
[15:56] <ogra_> so NCommander said he'd take all server specs and have them registered next week
[15:56] <NCommander> [chair] ogra_
[15:56] <meetingology> Current chairs: NCommander ogra_
[15:56] <ogra_> infinity, are you taking the HF spec ?
[15:56]  * infinity looks.
[15:56] <ogra_> since you do the work i guess ...
[15:56] <infinity> But I imagine I am.  Didn't know there was one. :P
[15:56] <ogra_> it just says armhf _)
[15:57] <infinity> Ahh.  Kay.
[15:57] <infinity> Yeah, I'll take that.
[15:57]  * ogra_ still doesnt know what "linaro arm boot " is supposed to mean
[15:57] <ogra_> davidm, can we skip that one until its clear what it means ?
[15:58] <ogra_> then we have "ARM ISO install for non-mmc hardware"
[15:58] <infinity> Does smagoun realize that an emulated live-build is likely to be slower than the real thing?
[15:58] <ogra_> who wants that ? i suspect its just d-i images
[15:58] <janimo> ogra_, I think that means 'arm boot speed'
[15:58] <ogra_> infinity, i think he doesnt want qemu, they used it in the past
[15:58] <ogra_> janimo, linaro arm boot ?
[15:58] <infinity> ogra_: He has to have qemu.
[15:58] <ogra_> janimo, do you want to take it ?
[15:58] <janimo> ogra_, yes. I think so
[15:59] <infinity> ogra_: His packages won't magically install on x86.
[15:59] <ogra_> and find out if thats true ?
[15:59] <janimo> ogra_, well it is a postponed one from O so I guess I'll do something related still
[15:59] <ogra_> infinity, well, qemu-arm-static ...
[15:59] <infinity> ogra_: Still qemu.
[15:59] <ogra_> janimo, a postponed one ?
[15:59] <infinity> ogra_: Anyhow, I should probably take smagoun's specs, so I can shoot them down as crack.
[15:59] <ogra_> oh, yours
[15:59] <ogra_> indeed
[15:59] <janimo> ogra_, yes
[15:59] <ogra_> infinity, well, one is clearly linaro
[16:00] <davidm> infinity, unless smagoun is going to do the work
[16:00] <ogra_> the package cross build stuff was already discussed art ubuntu-devel
[16:00] <ogra_> which he apparently doesnt read, else he could have participated :)
[16:01] <ogra_> davidm, do we expect achiang to work on the spec he proposed ?
[16:01] <ogra_> i think he is oem
[16:01] <ogra_> else one of us has to take the firefox elfhack one
[16:02] <infinity> I think our time's up.
[16:02] <ogra_> well, that doesnt go anywhere here, lets adjourn, i'll assign specs that have no owner
[16:02]  * ogra_ thinks him holding monologues to the team with only infinity participating is a waste of time
[16:02] <ogra_> #endmeeting
[16:02] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct  6 16:02:49 2011 UTC.
[16:02] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-06-14.59.moin.txt
[16:03] <skaet> ogra_, is bug 803752 still going to land?
[16:03] <ogra_> skaet, nope, i thought i had closed it
[16:03]  * ogra_ does so now ... preseeding is supported, just not preseed files
[16:03] <davidm> ogra_, I hope achiang will step up if not likely the task will not get scheduled
[16:04] <ogra_> k
[16:04] <skaet> ogra_ thanks.  Also,  what about ac100 tarball installer.
[16:04] <skaet> ?
[16:04] <davidm> just because there is an idea, no matter how good does not mean we do it.
[16:04] <skaet> bug 856278?
[16:04] <ogra_> skaet, ?? what about it ??
[16:05] <ogra_> skaet, ah, thats a special case
[16:05] <skaet> :)
[16:05] <ogra_> (sorry lagging here)
[16:05] <ogra_> i can release note it, the majority of people installs to internal
[16:06] <skaet> fair enough.   thanks,  just trying to get my lists pared down.  ;)
[17:58] <kees> o/
[17:58]  * stgraber waves
[17:59]  * pitti says hello
[18:01] <pitti> seems the "chair: sabdfl" is obsolete, Mark already sent his apologies and he isn't an official board member any more anyway
[18:02] <pitti> seems the brainstorm review is now done, thanks cjwatson
[18:02] <pitti> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/ubuntu/2011-10-06-brainstorm-review.html
[18:03] <pitti> no community bugs either
[18:03] <pitti> I didn't see anything on the ML, did I miss something?
[18:04] <wendar> ARB
[18:04] <pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-October/001100.html
[18:04] <pitti> is a new one
[18:04] <pitti> hey wendar
[18:04] <wendar> hi
[18:04] <pitti> #startmeeting
[18:04] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct  6 18:04:34 2011 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[18:04] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[18:04] <pitti> #topic recruiting new members for the ARB
[18:05] <pitti> I admit I haven't read it yet, shall we allow some minutes to read/digest it?
[18:05] <pitti> (release crunch, sorry0
[18:06] <ScottK> I've always found the lack of a requirement to be a developer troubling.
[18:07] <kees> ScottK: "evidence of activity" isn't really as strong as _being_ a developer
[18:08] <pitti> I find that a bit troublesome as well; being able to spot problems in these packages requires at least some packaging experience
[18:08] <wendar> we've talked about that, in the current group, and generally assume that we will make it a requirement in the future, so for this cycle we looked for applicants who are Ubuntu developers
[18:08] <pitti> hopefully this will be ensured by the voting/application process, but perhaps it could be made explicit? that an applicant should at least be a PPU?
[18:08] <ScottK> I find it particularly troubling given it's enabled in the default install.
[18:10] <stgraber> pitti: member of ~ubuntu-dev should match all PPU/MOTU/Core-dev (unless we forgot to add some members to that team)
[18:10] <wendar> the only reason we haven't already made it a requirement, is that we're unsure how to handle the fact that half the current ARB aren't Ubuntu Developers, and we're already hurting for bodies
[18:10] <pitti> aside from that the proposal seems straightforward and clear to me
[18:10] <wendar> but, we could make it a requirement now, with a transition plan
[18:11] <pitti> wendar: is that becuase these members aren't generally interested in Ubuntu packaging? do they want to become ubuntu devs?
[18:11] <wendar> I certainly do :)
[18:11] <wendar> I'm pretty sure the other ARB member does too
[18:12] <kees> how about making it policy now, but allow for existing members to be allowed with the stated intention that they are working towards dev?
[18:12] <ScottK> I'm fine with that.
[18:12] <wendar> sounds good
[18:12] <pitti> the requirements to these packages are quite a bit different to 'ordinary' packages, with /opt and all that, but one should at least be familiar with packagign basics
[18:13] <pitti> kees: that sounds good; I certainly don't intend to invalidate the current board
[18:14] <pitti> so the proposal is
[18:14] <pitti> - Ubuntu membership
[18:14] <pitti> + https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev membership
[18:14]  * kees nods
[18:14] <ScottK> Is Ubuntu membership required for PPU?
[18:14] <pitti> stgraber: WDYT?
[18:15] <stgraber> pitti: +1
[18:15] <ScottK> As long as Ubuntu membership is required for PPU, I think that's good.
[18:16] <pitti> ah, I'm fine with making that explicit and just have both requirements
[18:16] <pitti> ScottK: technically I think ubuntu membership is a consequence of being in ubuntu-dev
[18:16] <stgraber> also, all 3 current applicants we (as in ARB) have on our list are members of ~ubuntu-dev
[18:16] <Daviey> Hmm, i thought PPU was an avenue to get membership?
[18:16] <pitti> but I'm not entirely sure whether the DMB requires that as a prerequisite, or grants it together with PPU
[18:16] <Daviey> (via ~ubuntu-dev?)
[18:17] <stgraber> IIRC we (as in DMB this time) simply grant it by giving PPU
[18:17] <pitti> that was my impression, too
[18:17] <ScottK> Not a point worth spending a lot of time on then.
[18:17] <pitti> wendar: so, are you okay with adding ~ubuntu-dev membership as a requirement?
[18:17] <wendar> yup, reload the page
[18:17] <pitti> wendar: heh, says ~ubuntu-de
[18:18] <pitti> I'm afraid teaching everyone to speak German is a little too much effort
[18:18] <wendar> :)
[18:18] <wendar> edited again
[18:18] <pitti> thanks
[18:18] <pitti> #vote TB signoff of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Restaffing
[18:18] <meetingology> Please vote on: TB signoff of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Restaffing
[18:18] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[18:18] <pitti> +1
[18:18] <meetingology> +1 received from pitti
[18:18] <kees> +1
[18:18] <meetingology> +1 received from kees
[18:19] <pitti> stgraber: ?
[18:19] <stgraber> +1
[18:19] <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
[18:20] <pitti> we only have bare minimum quorum today, but my feeling is that this is pretty unanimous
[18:20] <stgraber> (sorry, was looking through the list of ~ubuntumembers)
[18:20] <pitti> #endvote
[18:20] <meetingology> Voting ended on: TB signoff of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Restaffing
[18:20] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[18:20] <meetingology> Motion carried
[18:20] <pitti> I'll reply on the TB list, and other TB members can then weigh in
[18:20] <pitti> wendar: thanks!
[18:21] <wendar> thanks all!
[18:22] <pitti> #topic next chair
[18:22] <pitti> we usually follow alphabetically, which would be soren
[18:22] <kees> alphabetically? yup.
[18:22] <pitti> but as he hasn't been in any meeting yet, I propose that we skip him this time
[18:22] <kees> stgraber: ready to chair the next one? :)
[18:23] <stgraber> sure
[18:23] <pitti> stgraber: do you want to chair the next one? I can guide you to what to do after the meeting
[18:23] <stgraber> pitti: that'd be great
[18:23] <kees> heh
[18:23] <pitti> oh, these hundreds of hours on the typewriter and pasting stamps
[18:23] <pitti> #topic AOB
[18:24] <pitti> nothing else from me; stgraber, kees, wendar, ScottK?
[18:24] <ScottK> Nope.
[18:24] <stgraber> nope
[18:24] <wendar> nope
[18:24] <ScottK> Not unless you want an off the cuff sru exception request
[18:24] <ScottK> I'd like to keep uploading postifx bug fixes post-release, but didn't have time to prepare anything.
[18:25] <kees> pitti: nothing from me
[18:25] <ScottK> This is the upstream that says, "We don't have a bug tracker because we don't leave known issues unfixed." and does it.
[18:25] <pitti> ScottK: is there usually something in them which goes beyond a mere aggregation of individual "we want these" fixes?
[18:26] <pitti> #topic postgres SRUs
[18:26] <pitti> erk
[18:26] <pitti> #topic postfix SRUs
[18:26] <pitti> silly autofingers :)
[18:26] <ScottK> Yes.  There's two primary upstream developers who have a strong vision for the product.
[18:26] <ScottK> Most bug reports turn into "Where in the documentation does it promise it's supposed to work that way?"
[18:27] <pitti> one thing that we need to fix there first are the eternal debconf questions on upgrade which potentially destroy your config (haven't checked, I always just say "no config")
[18:27] <ScottK> So it's very strongly spec'ed.
[18:27] <Daviey> Shouldn't lamont be in this discussion?
[18:27] <ScottK> lamont and I have discussed it.
[18:27] <ScottK> pitti: I don't recall those being an issue in a long time (I don't get the questions)
[18:27] <pitti> ScottK: so do you think the problem is that there are changes which are debatable, or that the problem is on the validation side?
[18:28] <pitti> ScottK: oh, wow; maybe I should file a bug then, I get them everytime
[18:28] <ScottK> Users have an expectation of how an MTA should work and they are often wrong.
[18:29] <ScottK> Post-release, postfix sticks to not changing functionality based on it's extensive documentation.
[18:29] <ScottK> They are very, very picky about it.
[18:29] <pitti> i. e. you want to establish a permanent microrelease exception for postfix?
[18:30] <ScottK> Yes.
[18:30] <ScottK> If they are happy with it, it is very safe for us.
[18:30] <lamont> I would support that
[18:30] <pitti> so I assume this is for not verifying all changes individually, but have a way to regression-test the entire update
[18:30] <ScottK> Upstream regression tests the upstream code before releasing.
[18:31] <pitti> kees: how much coverage does the qa-regression-test bzr have for postfix?
[18:31] <ScottK> I think we need to mostly make sure the packaging works and there's nothing major wrong.
[18:31] <kees> pitti: it's fair, let me double check
[18:31] <pitti> we still need some amount of testing the actually installed package, to guard against misbuilds, packaging errors, etc.
[18:31] <lamont> pitti: every regression I have seen in a micro-release update of postfix has been introduced by the debian/ubuntu packaging
[18:31] <ScottK> I've been backporting postfix for a long time and I've never had an issue.
[18:31] <pitti> lamont: yes, that's what I'm concerned about :)
[18:31] <lamont> ScottK: I've never had an issue with Wietse's work.  my own is the only concern
[18:32] <pitti> we had the weirdest things in SRUs, no-change uploads breakign completely, and the like
[18:32] <ScottK> That's generally obvious in the normal level of SRU testing we do.
[18:32] <lamont> pitti: fwiw, that has usually been me adding in my own other bugfixes and getting it wrong
[18:32] <lamont> when I just grab the latest upstream and stuff, it's always been beauty
[18:32] <kees> pitti: mostly it tests authentication mechanisms and basic delivery/forwarding
[18:32] <ScottK> My view is that if that works, it's 99.9% good.
[18:32] <pitti> kees: qa-regression bzr is integration testing on the actually installed .debs, right?
[18:33] <kees> pitti: correct
[18:33] <pitti> kees: is there any existing wiki documentation how to run this? or do we need a special page for postfix?
[18:33] <kees> pitti: it expects packages to be installed, but does its own configuration manipulations to attempt various auth methods and delivery methods
[18:33] <pitti> if we could just link to it on the MRE page, that'd be good
[18:34] <kees> pitti: there is no general docs on running the tests, no, but there is a pretty common methodology to it, and each test is documented on how to run it in the header comments
[18:34] <ScottK> I've never had a problem figuring them out from the comments.
[18:34] <pitti> I'm using postfix both on server as well as on my workstations, and never really had a problem with it except those annoying debconf prompts, I'm fairly convinced of its quality
[18:34] <pitti> kees: right, I mostly mean where to get it, how to run it, etc.
[18:34] <pitti> as long as the proposer of the SRU (lamont/ScottK) know how to run it, it's fine for me
[18:35] <pitti> lamont, ScottK: ^ do you?
[18:35] <lamont> I know how to tell ScottK to run it.
[18:35] <kees> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/qa-regression-testing/master/view/head:/scripts/test-postfix.py
[18:35] <ScottK> I didn't run the postfix one before, but I run the clamav one all the time.
[18:35] <ScottK> I'm sure it's not an issue.
[18:35] <pitti> my gut feeling is that an MRE is fine, provided that validation entails running the upstream regression tests (which already is done by upstream), and the existing integration tests
[18:35] <pitti> lamont: delegation FTW!
[18:36] <lamont> pitti: to be fair, my normal approach to postfix is to take the latest upstream, build it, install it, send email, and upload.  If I actually do any work, that's when I get all pedantic about testing it, ever since I broke it that one time
[18:36] <pitti> ScottK: is there a pending microrelease which we would SRU?
[18:37] <ScottK> yes.
[18:37] <ScottK> There's a backports request pending that we'd direct at -proposed instead.
[18:37] <pitti> so perhaps we could do this as a model case, see how much changes these carry, and how validation works, etc.
[18:37]  * kees nods
[18:37] <stgraber> sounds good
[18:38] <pitti> but in general I'm fine with this proposal; upstream's stable policy and regression testing is certainly appropriate for our SRU criteria
[18:38] <ScottK> It would be -proposed for natty only.
[18:38] <ScottK> Lucid/Maverick released with 2.7, so those will still go to backports.
[18:38] <pitti> ah, no 2.7.x updates any more?
[18:39] <ScottK> There are some of those I'll need to go back and look at too.
[18:39] <pitti> then I'm even less concerned
[18:39] <pitti> most postfixes which really matter certainly run on LTSes
[18:39] <ScottK> No, we can do them too, just referring to the current backport request.
[18:39] <pitti> but doing this on natty now gives us a nice trial period for precise
[18:39] <ScottK> So we'd keep 2.7 up to date in -proposed for lucid and 2.8 in backports.
[18:41] <pitti> ScottK: can we try that SRU once, and when it's done, come back to TB and discuss the general MRE when we all have more experience how that worked?
[18:41] <ScottK> OK.
[18:42] <pitti> I'm sure it will be okay, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with saying "+1" before seeing it in action
[18:42] <pitti> might just be me being a wimp, of course
[18:42] <pitti> kees, stgraber: WDYT?
[18:42] <kees> right, I prefer SRU history, then MRE
[18:43] <pitti> I'm signing up for reviewing that SRU
[18:43] <kees> but this looks to be a good trajectory
[18:43] <ScottK> I'm fine with this.
[18:43] <pitti> nice
[18:43] <stgraber> trying with one SRU osunds good
[18:44] <stgraber> *sounds
[18:44] <pitti> #topic AOB
[18:45] <pitti> going once..
[18:45] <pitti> going twice..
[18:45] <pitti> sold!
[18:45] <pitti> thanks everyone, have a good night!
[18:46] <stgraber> thanks pitti!
[18:46] <pitti> will send notes / update report. etc. now
[18:46] <pitti> #endmeeting
[18:46] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct  6 18:46:12 2011 UTC.
[18:46] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-06-18.04.moin.txt
[18:46] <pitti> wow, nice report
[18:47] <kees> thanks pitti!


[06:18] <benje> hello bug about amilo resolved the amd74xx bug was due to CONFIG_IDEPCI_SHARE_IRQ to NO
[06:19] <benje> you have to set it to no
[06:19] <benje> and cdrom is ok
[06:19] <benje> how can ia do a simple patch for ?
[07:35] <benje> hi
[07:47] <alex_joni> benje: first find the bug at launchpad, then add the info there
[09:45] <Kano> did somebody try that next kernel? i updated it to kernel git but still rt2x00 is broken and i get dmi bios error that it wants acpi=force
[10:35] <Ng> which alsa is in intrepid?
[10:36] <Ng> please say 1.0.17 ;)
[10:36] <Kano> thats in 2.6.27, in 2.6.26 is 1.0.16
[11:38] <Ng> Kano: but afaics ubuntu uses a separate ALSA from the kernel anyway, 'cos it's in LUM
[11:38] <Kano> Ng: only 2.6.24
[11:38] <Kano> there is no lum for 2.6.26/7
[11:38] <Ng> oh
[11:38] <Ng> bah
[11:39] <Ng> 1.0.17 has a bunch of new hardware support :/
[11:39] <Kano> then delete buildin alsa and compile it externally
[11:39] <Kano> modprobe -l|awk /snd-/|xargs rm -f
[11:39] <Kano> then the kernel ones are gone away, compile alsa manually
[11:40] <Ng> I already rebuild LUM with 1.0.17 for my laptop, but there are plenty of users for whom that isn't a realistic option :)
[11:40] <Ng> perhaps lbm could contain 1.0.17?
[11:49] <abogani> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-August/002867.html
[11:50] <Ng> aha
[11:50] <Ng> I'll wait for ben to wake up then :)
[14:22] <BenC> TheMuso: your zinc account is done
[14:22] <BenC> Ng: ?
[14:22] <Ng> BenC: aha :)
[14:22] <Ng> BenC: I was wondering about the possibilities of alsa 1.0.17 getting into intrepid
[14:22] <Ng> my laptop is entirely silent with .16, as are some others aiui
[14:22] <BenC> Ng: it's highly possible....not for Alpha4, but shortly after
[14:23] <BenC> Ng: is that a regression?
[14:23] <Ng> no, it was never supported in hardy, it required new code in hda_intel to work
[14:23] <Ng> I've been building my own LUM with 1.0.16 removed and 1.0.17 put in ;)
[14:25] <Ng> I've encountered at least one other person with newer hardware than .16 supports, so my guess is that several hda_intel variants are new enough to only be in .17
[14:25] <Ng> obviously this will always be the case, but if we can sanely do it, then I'd be very happy to see it :)
[14:27] <BenC> Ng: Can you test 2.6.27-rc2 deb's from http://kernel.ubuntu.com/pub/next/2.6.27-rc2/ ?
[14:27] <BenC> Ng: It's got LUM built-in (like intrepid)
[14:29] <Ng> sure
[14:30] <Ng> should it JustWork with hardy userspace?
[14:30] <TheMuso> BenC: Thanks.
[14:31] <TheMuso> Ng: I'm actually going to be looking at backporting important driver fixes/updates from 1.0.17 to hardy's 1.0.16 alsa-driver code.
[14:32] <Ng> TheMuso: aha, well I'll probably be running Intrepid in the next month if I stick to my usual schedule, but I'm sure there are people who will be sticking with hardy for a lot longer who'd appreciate something like that
[14:33] <TheMuso> Ng: Yeah, supporting newer sound hardware for hardy, at least for a while, is something that IMo needs to be done.
[14:34] <Ng> TheMuso: well my suggestion would be to start with hda_intel - my impression is that that covers more current hardware than any other driver. I could be wrong, that's just my guess ;)
[14:34] <TheMuso> Ng: Yes thats one of the ones being considered.
[14:34] <Ng> :)
[14:35] <BenC> Ng: it's a good guess :)
[14:35] <BenC> Almost anything coming out today is based on HDA, whether it's AMD or Intel chipset
[14:35] <Ng> it's a bit weird that there are so many variants though
[14:35] <TheMuso> IMO weird is an understatement.
[14:35] <BenC> Ng: it's more than weird, it's hugely irritating
[14:36] <mjg59> Ng: Multiple different codecs that can be attached, and then vendors can wire them all up in different ways
[14:36] <BenC> Ng: the main thing is that HDA just defines a way to access the codec...it doesn't have a built-in way to define the pin-outs, so they have to be hardcoded :/
[14:36] <mjg59> Oh, there's a definition
[14:36] <mjg59> It's just often ignored
[14:37] <mjg59> The BIOS is supposed to provide a table
[14:37] <Ng> ahhh. by which I mean "ugh" ;)
[14:37] <BenC> mjg59: that's funny...I assumed it didn't because more often than not, new hardware doesn't work out-of-the-box
[14:38] <mjg59> I think Linux has occasionally been poor at using the BIOS information, but also vendors are poor at putting anything in there
[14:38] <mjg59> The Windows .inf files usually contain the pinouts
[14:38] <mjg59> What /would/ be nice would be some way of using the .inf to teach the kernel
[14:39] <BenC> mjg59: Tim and I talked about doing that, but never got around to looking at it
[14:39] <Ng> sounds like something Wubi would be able to harvest pre-install
[14:39] <mjg59> Yeah
[14:39] <Ng> but useless to those of us who stab windows in the face when deboxing a laptop ;)
[14:39] <mjg59> If you've got the driver CD, there's still hope
[14:40] <BenC> deflowering I think is the term you were looking for :)
[14:40]  * TheMuso is personally not a fan of recovery partitions.
[14:41] <Ng> yeah in this laptop's case there were no CDs in the box, it's pure recovery partition, but naturally I stabbed that in the face too. I'm probably an atypical user though, and I like the idea of being able to steal information from .inf files more generally :)
[15:24] <BenC> Ng: let me know if that 2.6.27-rc2 kernel works for you...I plan on using sound/ out of that for intrepid/2.6.26 kernel
[15:24] <Ng> BenC: will do, I'll give it a try when I get home
[15:28] <rtg> BenC: where is the root partition remounted? Is that done in initramfs? In particular, I'm curious how file system options are applied after the initial mount.
[15:30] <BenC> rtg: remount is done in init scripts from the root partition
[15:31] <rtg> BenC: checkroot.sh ?
[15:39] <BenC> rtg: looks right
[16:22] <abogani> rtg, BenC: Sorry to bother you. Are there some chance to have an linux-restricted-modules-source package (as i requested in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-August/002871.html)?
[16:23] <BenC> abogani: we're considering making it spit out dkms packages instead, which will get it working for any kernel installed (including -rt)
[16:25] <abogani> BenC, Wow! it would be great! One less package to handle! :-)
[17:17] <_gAri-> hi there, can you please help me out where can I find the ubuntu specific kernel patch in peaces that is applied to the vanilla kernel? I mean I only want to use parts of it, not totally
[17:18] <mjg59> _gAri-: It doesn't exist
[17:18] <mjg59> _gAri-: If you download the Ubuntu kernel git tree, you can extract individual patches from it with git
[17:41] <_gAri-> can you give me a clue how to do that?
[17:41] <_gAri-> I'm not a kernel developper, I just want to patch a vanilla kernel with the apparmor version ubuntu uses, and PAX or grsecurity.
[17:42] <_gAri-> actually if I patch a vanilla kernel with apparmor myself, it says that the profiles are malformed or something like this
[18:19] <mdz> has anyone looked at bug 255635?
[18:19] <mdz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/255635
[18:43] <bdmurray> superm1: Do you have any ideas about bug 257003?
[18:52] <superm1> bdmurray, yeah its been addressed in the latest git tree
[18:53] <superm1> bdmurray, i was holding off doing an upload as it should just be in the next driver release though
[18:54] <bdmurray> superm1: what can I do in the mean time?
[18:54] <superm1> bdmurray, manually remove any symlinks in /usr/lib32/fglrx
[18:54] <superm1> make sure to only remove the symlinks though
[18:55] <iiinc> Where should I ask about m-a kernel source package uploads? Noticed that drbd8 module source isn't in hardy/intrepid
[18:57] <iiinc> scratch that, it's in ubuntu-modules. Sigh.
[18:59] <BenC> mjg59: would you agree that if dsilvers tlsup driver works as advertised, we don't need any of the tosh workarounds in acpi-support?
[18:59] <BenC> His driver compiles, and seems to do what he said it does (works out-of-box with no /dev/ or /proc/ stuff to mess around with)
[19:00] <BenC> has hotkeys going through input-devpoll
[19:00] <BenC> real backlight driver, etc.
[21:48] <BenC> ogasawara: Is it possible to have a count of current/carried-forward/fixed on intrepid-buglist.html?
[21:49] <ogasawara> BenC: yup, I can just add it to the page
[21:49] <BenC> ogasawara: thanks
[21:49] <BenC> ogasawara: looks like we are really backed up
[21:49] <hyperair_> BenC, iwlagn (using intel 4965 agn) looks for iwlwifi-4965-2.ucode in the 2.6.27 kernel.. where do i get the firmware?
[21:50] <BenC> hyperair: I need to upload latest lrm to intrepid...then you can get it from linux-restricted-modules-common
[21:51] <hyperair> BenC, i see. thanks. any chance of it being backported to hardy?
[21:52] <BenC> hyperair: You can install the lrm-common from intrepid to hardy with no problems
[21:53] <hyperair> i see
[21:53] <hyperair> what about the kernel itself?
[21:53] <hyperair> i got it from kernels.ubuntu.com or soemthing of that sort
[21:54] <hyperair> make that kernel.ubuntu.com
[21:55] <BenC> hyperair: what about it?
[21:55] <hyperair> any chance of it entering backports?
[21:55] <hyperair> i'm looking specifically at this kernel because it's got .17 alsa drivers
[21:55] <hyperair> and anything below that doesn't support lenovo y410 very well
[21:56] <abogani> BenC, When i could know if lrm switch (or no) to dkms?
[21:56] <BenC> hyperair: not to hardy, no
[21:56] <BenC> hyperair: we will likely have .17 alsa in intrepid though
[21:56] <BenC> abogani: it will switch, hopefully by alpha5
[21:56] <BenC> hyperair: lrm for intrepid just uploaded, so give it a few hours
[21:57] <abogani> BenC, Is it already definitive?
[21:58] <laga> hello.
[21:59] <BenC> abogani: it was already decided awhile back, I just haven't switched it out yet
[21:59] <laga> BenC: BTW, i showed the intrepid kernel source tree to the aufs maintainer and he said he can't support it because some files are missing ;)
[22:00] <abogani> BenC, Ok. thanks!
[22:00] <hyperair> BenC, thanks.
[22:01] <BenC> laga: what files?
[22:03] <laga> BenC: stuff like Kconfig and Makefile. i'm having trouble with NFS right now, but i think i know what's missing
[22:03] <BenC> laga: lol...there is a Makefile/Kconfig, else the damn thing wouldn't build :)
[22:04] <BenC> laga: There was some stuff related to NFS in there, but it required ugly patches to the kernel, and I wasn't prepared to apply them (unless aufs maintainer is prepared to support those patches in case they break anything else)
[22:05] <laga> indeed, but they are truncated.
[22:05] <BenC> laga: truncated to just what we need...that has nothing to do with the code
[22:09] <laga> BenC: ugly patches? it should require the following patches:
[22:09] <laga> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid.git;a=blobdiff;f=fs/file_table.c;h=0b6dbac60adda31cb1ba57c93a46c2cad71e7a1d;hp=83084225b4c3b3195520d5a7a441360046d6f230;hb=3b3cff7d20e3a13b89f77e641362170000ffc5c0;hpb=952058fa3a0ea802fb5e958a69119aeb01aae7a9
[22:09] <laga> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid.git;a=blobdiff;f=fs/namei.c;h=df4bd0d1515eb139648088a194e1311bc3dd4dc0;hp=01e67dddcc3d2033a2038c37f9f791ba0921a781;hb=3b3cff7d20e3a13b89f77e641362170000ffc5c0;hpb=952058fa3a0ea802fb5e958a69119aeb01aae7a9
[22:09] <laga> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid.git;a=blobdiff;f=include/linux/namei.h;h=33c7f23f716ef1009158ffe01690356e11a2fe3e;hp=24d88e98a62648180a553fdfb457837bcbcb5c00;hb=3b3cff7d20e3a13b89f77e641362170000ffc5c0;hpb=952058fa3a0ea802fb5e958a69119aeb01aae7a9
[22:09] <laga> Mythbuntu really needs these patches :)
[22:09] <laga> it's mostly exported symbols
[22:12] <BenC> laga: Actually, it shouldn't even need that if we compile aufs into the kernel (which I would rather do)
[22:15] <laga> okay, then i'm going to edit the config, rebuild the kernel and try again.
[22:18] <laga> can i just edit debian/config/amd64/config or is that bad karma?
[23:20] <BenC> laga: that should work
[23:21] <laga> okay.
[23:21] <laga> interesting, make distclean deleted debian/
[23:23] <tormod> I am looking for someone to sponsor bug #192772, the debdiff is 6 weeks old, and another freeze is coming...
[23:24] <tormod> the same happened with the same package in Hardy, please don't let it happen again
[23:30] <BenC> tormod: I'll look into it
[23:30] <tormod> thanks!
[23:39] <mjg59> BenC: Yup.
[23:53] <laga> BenC: is there any reason not to restore Kconfig for aufs? it looks like it's doing some magic to set invisible config items like AUFS_BR_NFS. but i could also just hardcode these in config
[23:56] <BenC> laga: just add the ones we care about
[23:56] <BenC> The rest are pointless clutter if we aren't actually using them