[03:06] <HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MplayerInstallHowto
[03:06] <HrdwrBoB> ugh that looks awful, I'm cleaning it up
[03:23] <HrdwrBoB> are we mentioning w32codecs on the wiki or not?
[03:23] <mgalvin> i would say not i think
[03:24] <HrdwrBoB> yeah that's what I though
[03:49] <mdke> i like that doc
[03:49] <mdke> what's up with it?
[03:50] <HrdwrBoB> mdke: it's fixed now
[03:50] <mdke> i'll check out your changes
[03:50] <HrdwrBoB> the content was fine, it just wasn't formatted very well
[03:51] <mdke> hmm
[03:51] <mdke> i preferred his sources.list to the AddingMultimediaRepositories one
[03:51] <mdke> backports isn't necessary for mplayer, which is in multiverse
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> backports isn't in there
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> or at least, it shouldn't be
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> it just has hoary-extras
[03:52] <mdke> well that is a backports archive
[03:52] <mdke> mplayer is still in ubuntu multiverse
[03:53] <HrdwrBoB> true
[03:53] <mdke> i don't like the AddingMultimediaRepositories page
[03:54] <mdke> hoary-extras --
[03:54] <HrdwrBoB> should probably link to AddingRepositoriesHowto
[03:54] <mdke> that's my opinion yeah
[03:55] <mdke> the ideal conf file IMHO is at ExampleConffiles
[03:55] <mdke> MplayerInstallHowto is the only page on the wiki that links to AddingMultimediaRepositories :)
[04:02] <HrdwrBoB> there
[04:02] <HrdwrBoB> changed the link and fixed up the formatting a bit more
[04:08] <Burgundavia> should we promote cedega?
[04:08] <HrdwrBoB> certainly not promote it
[04:09] <HrdwrBoB> but there's no reason not to tell people it exists
[04:09] <mdke> no idea about it
[04:09] <mdke> but people seem to use it and find it useful
[04:10] <mdke> -->bed
[04:10] <mdke> night
[04:10] <mdke> nice one on Mplayer HrdwrBoB
[04:11] <mdke> HrdwrBoB, nice to have you helping us. Add your name to WikiTeam?
[04:14] <mgalvin> s/Keeping your machine updated/Keeping Ubuntu Software Updated/ ?
[04:15] <mdke> i like machine
[04:15] <mgalvin> seems a little more noob friendl imho
[04:15] <mdke> i would say keeping your computer updated is more friendly
[04:15] <Burgundavia> Keeping Ubuntu updated ?
[04:16] <mdke> btw maybe you two could get together with rob^ and hack out that spec, resolve any confusion
[04:16] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:16] <mdke> prepare a spec with user audience too
[04:16] <mdke> like jeff did with the styleguide
[04:17] <mgalvin> my mom would understand better keeping software updated
[04:17] <mdke> also, if you cut out any power user stuff, let's cut and paste into the userguide if appropriate
[04:17] <Burgundavia> shall I add who I think the guide should be targeted at on the top of the page
[04:17] <Burgundavia> mdke, absolutely, that was the plan
[04:17] <mdke> Burgundavia, copy jeff's structure
[04:17] <Burgundavia> to reference sections of the user guide for further info
[04:17] <Burgundavia> mdke, the one in svn?
[04:18] <mdke> Burgundavia, on the wiki page
[04:18] <mdke> (the styleguide spec)
[04:18] <Burgundavia> where?
[04:18] <mdke> erm
[04:18] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuidePlan?highlight=%28styleguide%29
[04:18] <mdke> StyleGuide i guess, not sure
[04:19] <mdke> yeah StyleGuide
[04:19] <Burgundavia> geez
[04:19] <Burgundavia> that is quite long
[04:19] <mdke> only the document plan section is what I was thinking of
[04:20] <mdke> 1-9
[04:22] <Burgundavia> done
[04:22] <Burgundavia> I am wondering about playing games
[04:23] <Burgundavia> maybe we should promote some simple games and move cedega to the users guide
[04:24] <mdke> lincity
[04:24] <mdke> freeciv
[04:24] <mdke> supertux
[04:24] <mdke> :)
[04:24] <Burgundavia> ya
[04:24] <mdke> tuxracer
[04:25] <Burgundavia> so the only games that are in the faq guide must come out of an Ubuntu repo
[04:25] <Burgundavia> how does that sound for a principal?
[04:25] <Burgundavia> s/principal/principle
[04:25] <mdke> not sure
[04:26] <mdke> best get your heads together with mgalvin and rob^
[04:26] <mdke> --> bed
[04:26] <Burgundavia> mgalvin is already here
[04:26] <Burgundavia> rob^, ping
[04:27] <mgalvin> i would say stick with stuff in the repos
[04:30] <Burgundavia> I like agreement
[04:30] <Burgundavia> this faq guide is going to rock
[04:31] <mgalvin> rock on :)
[04:32] <Burgundavia> tomorrow I will solicit opininion from the NUN people
[04:45] <robitaille> wow...the wiki Java page is really simpler now :)  I'm about to replace my IBM Java plugins by Sun's.
[04:45] <Burgundavia> yes, the wiki is truly coming along
[04:45] <Burgundavia> a some point I am going to cleanup bittorrent
[04:45] <Burgundavia> as that doesn't promote our built-in bittorrent stuff
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> mdke: ok :)
[04:47] <Burgundavia> robitaille, do you have comments on the FAQGuideReSpec
[04:47] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, nice work with the mplayer page, btw
[04:48] <HrdwrBoB> cheers
[04:48] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  haven't had time to look at it yet;  I'll take a look within the hour (after I put the kids to bed)
[04:49] <Burgundavia> ok
[04:49] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: great it would be nice to hear their comments and suggestions (the NUN)
[04:49] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:50] <Burgundavia> as they are the ones that are going to be helping people when our docs fail
[04:50] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, you want to do something else?
[04:51] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: nice spec
[04:51] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco
[04:51] <jsgotangco> salug
[04:51] <HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: yeah what needs going
[04:51] <HrdwrBoB> er doing
[04:52] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, the FileCompression page should be reorg to be by file format
[04:52] <Burgundavia> in alphabetical order
[04:52] <Burgundavia> hmm, do it by extension or by name?
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> is a table of contents recommended
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> extension
[04:53] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> I've generally been putting them
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB>  in
[04:53] <Burgundavia> make the title Firefox extensions (.xpi)
[04:53] <Burgundavia> of something
[04:54] <Burgundavia> I trust your judgement
[04:54] <HrdwrBoB> cool
[04:54] <robitaille> FAQGuideReSpec:  should we promote ways of getting "live" help:  IRC, mailing list? A "How to get help from the community" section?
[04:54] <Burgundavia> robitaille, good idea
[04:55] <Burgundavia> place at the end?
[04:55] <Burgundavia> 2nd item?
[04:56] <robitaille> near the top is probably better
[04:56] <Burgundavia> added at the end
[04:56] <robitaille> :)
[04:56] <Burgundavia> 2nd item after updating?
[04:57] <robitaille> sounds good.
[04:57] <Burgundavia> done
[04:58] <Burgundavia> robitaille, what do you think of "keeping your machine updated"?
[04:58] <Burgundavia> think it should be software or Ubuntu?
[04:59] <robitaille> Ubuntu.  Sounds more friendly considering what Aunt Tilley knows
[04:59] <Burgundavia> your Ubuntu or just Ubuntu?
[04:59] <robitaille> your
[04:59] <mgalvin> jsgotangco: thnx, good job by Burgundavia too
[05:00] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, my crazy idea. I just need people to buy into it
[05:00] <Burgundavia> cause if nobody buys in, it is just a crazy idea
[05:01] <Burgundavia> I am debating 3D acceleration
[05:01] <Burgundavia> nah, I will keep it
[05:01] <robitaille> I think 3D should go....a bit too technical.
[05:01] <jsgotangco> 3D acceleration in Ubuntu? what for?
[05:01] <mgalvin> i think we need that
[05:01] <Burgundavia> ok, it will die
[05:01] <Burgundavia> hmm
[05:01] <robitaille> Something about Gaim?  Remember jdub 10x10 talk and girls who like IM?
[05:01] <mgalvin> er, um well on second thought
[05:02] <jsgotangco> acceleration is usually a domain in games which is not our core compentency imo
[05:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:02] <robitaille> unless any of the game you are going to talk about need 3D acceleration?
[05:02] <mgalvin> it is to technical for our target audience
[05:02] <HrdwrBoB> someone who wants 3D has more technical ability
[05:03] <jsgotangco> robitaille: it would be quite a few, since you can count on your fingers native linux games that need acceleration
[05:03] <HrdwrBoB> ie: they will actively go and look for more help
[05:03] <Burgundavia> robitaille, we will just avoid it
[05:03] <mgalvin> possibly refer people to some other doc that discusses it so the brave noobs know where to look
[05:03] <robitaille> good.  I never play games under Ubuntu :)
[05:03] <Burgundavia> in the playing games section we can mention it
[05:03] <HrdwrBoB> heh, I do
[05:03] <robitaille> and my 1997 graphic card doesn't do 3D anyway :)
[05:04] <Burgundavia> I need another term like "Surfing the internet"
[05:04] <robitaille> Travelling on the information superhighway? :)
[05:04] <Burgundavia> that encompasses email, the internet and gaim
[05:05] <mgalvin> Using the Internet
[05:05] <Burgundavia> but I changed the firefox section to be Surfing the Internet
[05:08] <Burgundavia> ok latest up
[05:08] <jsgotangco> brb i gotta start work
[05:10] <Burgundavia> rofl --> IIIEars gentoo is the reason bayer sells aspirin
[05:14] <Burgundavia> alright, the ReSpec has been spent to pass the parents test
[05:14] <Burgundavia> s/spent/sent
[05:15] <mgalvin> its gone
[05:15] <Burgundavia> huh?
[05:15] <Burgundavia> rob^, ping
[05:16] <Burgundavia> rob^, deleted it for some reason
[05:16] <mgalvin> its back, hmm
[05:16] <Burgundavia> I just reverted it
[05:16] <mgalvin> k
[05:16] <Burgundavia> that is what rob said --> Removing content as it is not applicable to the FAQ Guide yet
[05:17] <mgalvin> i saw that
[05:17] <Burgundavia> no idea
[05:17] <Burgundavia> he sounded annoyed that he had not been consulted
[05:17] <Burgundavia> I thought I was pretty clear it was a work in progress
[05:23] <Burgundavia> ok, that i odd
[05:24] <Burgundavia> now it shows robert editing twice and me reverting twice
[05:24] <Burgundavia> which I haven't done
[05:30] <Burgundavia> rob^, please stop reverting the page. Lets talk
[05:35] <HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
[05:35] <HrdwrBoB> that's a lot better, still needs a littel bit of fixing
[05:37] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, cheers that looks great
[05:37] <Burgundavia> what about swapping archive and non-archive formats?
[05:38] <HrdwrBoB> I put nonarchive formats first because that way people might realise that it's not really an archive
[05:39] <HrdwrBoB> and odds are on entry they will see what they want in the contents, and click straight to there
[05:40] <Burgundavia> true
[05:41] <Burgundavia> minor other quibble with the commandline stuff
[05:41] <Burgundavia> I split it out to make it clear that it could be done by the gui
[05:41] <Burgundavia> you might want to do that again
[05:42] <HrdwrBoB> so make the command line usage under a next level header
[05:42] <Burgundavia> I would put the commandline is a seperate section
[05:42] <Burgundavia> so you would have 3 sections
[05:42] <Burgundavia> non-archive, archive and command line
[05:43] <HrdwrBoB> I'm not sure that would be more useful
[05:44] <HrdwrBoB> the tar/targz/tarbz2 sections on the archive format thing effectively become irrelevant
[05:44] <Burgundavia> not really
[05:44] <mgalvin> Burgundavia, we are still going to keep the faqguide profiled right
[05:44] <Burgundavia> just that we are trying to promote the gui and a quick glance at the looks like the commandline is the only solution
[05:45] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, absolutely
[05:45] <mgalvin> ok, just making sure
[05:45] <HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: hm.. perhaps a screenshot of archive manager and a bit about it would be better
[05:45] <Burgundavia> might be, hmm
[05:45] <HrdwrBoB> in the basic archives section, and rename that to 'Package Manager'
[05:46] <Burgundavia> maybe just get rid of the command line stuff?
[05:46] <HrdwrBoB> well if the target audience is mum and dad
[05:46] <HrdwrBoB> then yeah, we should really lose it altogether
[05:46] <Burgundavia> most of the wiki is
[05:47] <Burgundavia> because if you know about the commandline, you probably know about man pages
[05:47] <HrdwrBoB> mmmm based on my experience in #ubuntu I'd say possibly not :)
[05:47] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:47] <HrdwrBoB> I'll strip out most of the command line stuff in the indiviual sections
[05:48] <HrdwrBoB> and put in a section on basic command like usage
[05:48] <HrdwrBoB> line
[05:48] <Burgundavia> ya, that is what I was thinking
[05:48] <HrdwrBoB> rather than full examples etc
[06:07] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, what is your real name?
[06:07] <HrdwrBoB> MatthewParslow
[06:07] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:07] <HrdwrBoB> that's who's been editing all the pages :)
[06:08] <Burgundavia> ya, just remembered that
[06:08] <Burgundavia> had a bit of a bad day
[06:09] <HrdwrBoB> I've added some screenshots to that page - they're not overly useful but I think they will make people feel good
[06:09] <Burgundavia> cool
[06:09] <Burgundavia> I just reworked GettingUbuntu
[06:09] <Burgundavia> you might want to take a quick peer
[06:10] <HrdwrBoB>  If you have a 64 bit system, you need AMD64 install CD
[06:10] <HrdwrBoB> that's not strictly true, and in many cases a 32 bit system is easier :)
[06:11] <thechitowncubs> Hey everyone
[06:11] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:11] <Burgundavia> salut thechitowncubs
[06:11] <mgalvin> hi thechitowncubs
[06:12] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, mind if you respond to rob as well
[06:12] <Burgundavia> as you have been doing work
[06:13] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, I really like the first screenshot
[06:13] <Burgundavia> that makes it easy
[06:13] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[06:13] <Burgundavia> I wish gnome would move the special actions farther up the menu
[06:16] <mgalvin> Burgundavia, i do not mind, please feel free to respond
[06:17] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, no, I was asking if you would respond as well
[06:17] <thechitowncubs> what are tonights focus of labor?
[06:17] <Burgundavia> bittorrent needs rewrite
[06:17] <Burgundavia> to basically say that hoary and breezy just do it
[06:17] <Burgundavia> how to set it up in warty
[06:17] <Burgundavia> and advanced clients
[06:18] <thechitowncubs> I was just looking at that page :)
[06:18] <thechitowncubs> alright, i'll work on bt
[06:18] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:19] <mgalvin> Burgundavia, i did
[06:19] <Burgundavia> mgalvin, thanks
[06:19] <mgalvin> np
[06:19] <mgalvin> did you see my response?
[06:20] <Burgundavia> the one where you started the thread?
[06:21] <mgalvin> no b/c he didn't reply to that one, i replyed to Sec: Unclassified Ubuntu FAQ Guide changes
[06:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:22] <Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, what is your wikiname?
[06:27] <mgalvin> ok, time for bed, g'night guys, see y'all tomorrow
[06:27] <mgalvin> zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz
[06:27] <Burgundavia> night
[06:28] <thechitowncubs> JohnLambrechts
[06:28] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> There, that's better
[06:31] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, that is great
[06:33] <HrdwrBoB> There needs to be a basic terminal how to page
[06:33] <HrdwrBoB> I've looked for one on several occasions, so I'm going to make one :)
[06:33] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:34] <Burgundavia> discuss histroy basically
[06:34] <Burgundavia> and ctrl-r searching
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> I was thinking basic basics
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> how to open a terminal
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> getting around
[06:34] <Burgundavia> oh, that basic
[06:34] <HrdwrBoB> in many entries on wikis that are aimed at newbies
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> it says "open a terminal"
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> "run this in a termina"
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> but nowhere does it say what that is
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> or how to do it
[06:35] <Burgundavia> hopefully, not as many as a few days ago
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[06:35] <HrdwrBoB> but for now, there's still quite a lot
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> but even where it's presented as an alternative
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> we want people to be able to learn about that if they want
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> should I create it called Terminal or TerminalHowto or what
[06:36] <Burgundavia> TerminalHowto
[06:48] <rob^> right, home from work finally
[06:49] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:49] <rob^> hmm, matts not here
[06:50] <Burgundavia> no he left about 20 minutes ago
[06:50] <rob^> ok
[06:51] <Burgundavia> did you want to talk about the FAQGuideReSpec
[06:51] <rob^> well I need to talk to matt about it really
[06:51] <rob^> but regarding that
[06:52] <rob^> you do realise it started as an exact copy of ubuntuguide.org, right?
[06:52] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:52] <Burgundavia> I was there in Mataro when the initial work was done
[06:52] <rob^> hence, its not docbook friendly
[06:53] <Burgundavia> thats is fine
[06:53] <rob^> and I dont apprciate you removing most of my changes to the spec either
[06:53] <Burgundavia> I gave a reason, and we (the various people in this channel) agree with them
[06:53] <Burgundavia> read the scrollback
[06:53] <Burgundavia> we had a long discussion about it
[06:54] <rob^> yes, without the person who wrote it
[06:54] <Burgundavia> wrote what?
[06:55] <rob^> you are basically telling me how to write it
[06:55] <Burgundavia> not really
[06:55] <rob^> yes really
[06:55] <Burgundavia> I pulled the latest source out of the cvs
[06:55] <rob^> and you dont contribute yourself
[06:55] <Burgundavia> and went, "where do we go with this"
[06:56] <Burgundavia> rob^, I just got my svn commit access back
[06:56] <rob^> right, how many times do I have to say "this is going to be changed"
[06:56] <Burgundavia> rob^, I looked at the exisiting doc and I don't think it really works as an FAQ guide
[06:56] <thechitowncubs> we don't need fighting
[06:56] <rob^> its in the comments of the faq guide, I have sent emails regarding it, we discussed it a little at the last meeting
[06:56] <Burgundavia> yes, I read those
[06:57] <rob^> Burgundavia, right, thats why the comments are there
[06:57] <Burgundavia> then I spoke to matt
[06:57] <Burgundavia> and he and I chatted about a re spec
[06:57] <rob^> we just havent done it *yet*
[06:57] <thechitowncubs> we need resolution not fighting
[06:57] <Burgundavia> and then I created the wiki page and we started hacking on it
[06:57] <Burgundavia> this is NOT just my idea
[06:57] <rob^> right, then when I added a few changes, they were pretty much removed
[06:58] <rob^> something like that need to be done with everyone involved
[06:58] <Burgundavia> it has been
[06:58] <rob^> esp someone who has been working on it alot
[06:59] <rob^> no, it hasnt. All I got was "hey, here is this thing we did"
[06:59] <Burgundavia> sorry you got that impression
[06:59] <Burgundavia> that was not intended
[06:59] <rob^> when I added a few changes, they were dismissed
[07:00] <rob^> your not even responsible for the guide at the moment
[07:00] <Burgundavia> matt and I hacked on it and then I posted something to the list, asking for ideas
[07:00] <Burgundavia> no, I am not
[07:00] <rob^> right
[07:00] <Burgundavia> I was going to, but I didn't have commit access and thus declined
[07:00] <rob^> I will talk about it with matt the next time I see him on here
[07:00] <rob^> you dont need commit access to contribute
[07:01] <Burgundavia> please don't just blank the spec
[07:01] <rob^> until I talk with him and we work out a compromise, I am going to disregard the spec
[07:01] <Burgundavia> please don't do that
[07:01] <Burgundavia> lets works this out
[07:01] <rob^> I'm not happy about this whole thing to be honest
[07:02] <Burgundavia> what would you like to see?
[07:03] <Burgundavia> I am trying to present a consistent vision
[07:03] <rob^> brb son hurt himself
[07:08] <Burgundavia> for our XP iso burning stuff, should we promote installation of random software?
[07:12] <rob^> ok back
[07:16] <rob^> well, was..
[07:16] <rob^> bbl
[07:18] <Burgundavia> rob^, we are going to need to resolve this dispute
[07:20] <rob^> a little respect for others will go a long way
[07:20] <Burgundavia> I am sorry I offended you, it was not my intention
[07:20] <Burgundavia> matt and I happened to click on the topic and it snowballed
[07:21] <rob^> yes, and I appreciate help
[07:21] <rob^> but I dont like being told what to do
[07:21] <Burgundavia> I looked at the document as it stood and was worried about a consistent vision
[07:22] <thechitowncubs> can i ask what document you are talking about and i can give my unbiased point of view?
[07:22] <Burgundavia> sure
[07:22] <rob^> yes, but had you have looked at it in a couple of days time, you would have probably not had the same impression
[07:22] <Burgundavia> FAQGuideReSpec
[07:22] <Burgundavia> on the wii
[07:22] <Burgundavia> rob^, then lets work within the spec that Matt and I generated
[07:22] <Burgundavia> and others worked on
[07:22] <rob^> the reason that the FAQ guide is in the state its in is because I have a full time job I need to be at
[07:23] <Burgundavia> indeed
[07:24] <Burgundavia> I am interested in your overal vision
[07:24] <rob^> my plan for the next few days was to compleatly restructure the FAQ Guide
[07:24] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:24] <rob^> (its friday today)
[07:24] <Burgundavia> good timing
[07:24] <Burgundavia> now we can work together
[07:25] <rob^> well, the thing is once I had done that, you wouldnt have said what you just did
[07:25] <Burgundavia> I am going to take that spec to the NewUsersNetwork to get their ideas at their meeting tomorrow
[07:25] <Burgundavia> I never had any intention of taking over
[07:25] <rob^> I dont think nun needs to be involved until we have something we might consider releasing
[07:26] <Burgundavia> not really
[07:26] <Burgundavia> I am asking their opinions
[07:26] <rob^> yes, but we need to have more then just a layout plan before asking for opinions
[07:26] <rob^> thats not even finalised yet
[07:26] <rob^> mainly due to this
[07:26] <Burgundavia> we have a spec
[07:27] <Burgundavia> that we are working on
[07:27] <Burgundavia> now is the perfect time to ask as many people as possible
[07:27] <rob^> you do realise the FAQ Guide is more then just an faq guide for Ubuntu
[07:27] <Burgundavia> huh?
[07:28] <Burgundavia> can you elaborate?
[07:28] <rob^> theres a kde profile in there and others
[07:28] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:28] <Burgundavia> the profile will remain
[07:28] <Burgundavia> I have no idea where that idea came from
[07:28] <rob^> at this stage I can only see us having a Ubuntu version for Breezy
[07:28] <rob^> there is still a lot of work to be done
[07:28] <Burgundavia> that is why we need a clear roadmap
[07:29] <Burgundavia> hence the spec
[07:29] <rob^> yes, but the spec doesn't take into account the fact that the faq guide originated from ubuntuguide.org
[07:29] <rob^> its like proposing a whole new document
[07:29] <Burgundavia> yes it is
[07:30] <Burgundavia> ubuntuguide is not useful as an FAQ guide
[07:30] <Burgundavia> to be honest
[07:30] <rob^> right, but never the less thats where it came from
[07:30] <Burgundavia> I was there when we profiled the ubuntuguide and converted it into docbook
[07:30] <rob^> I dont like it either, but I have and still am working to change that
[07:30] <Burgundavia> then why object to the spec?
[07:30] <rob^> things like this spec are just adding more work
[07:31] <Burgundavia> no they are not
[07:31] <Burgundavia> they are provided a clear roadmap, so many people can work on it
[07:31] <rob^> ok
[07:32] <rob^> I need to have a bigger imput into it
[07:32] <rob^> input ^
[07:32] <Burgundavia> ok, go nuts
[07:32] <rob^> simply
[07:32] <rob^> as I have done most of the work to take it from ubuntuguide.org until now
[07:32] <rob^> I was happy to go along with a "spec"
[07:32] <Burgundavia> yes, I recognize that
[07:33] <rob^> until all my changes were pretty much removed from it
[07:33] <rob^> the only changes I made were to align the spec with what the document acutally is
[07:33] <Burgundavia> we are promoting the Ubuntu best practices
[07:33] <Burgundavia> nautlius does ftp
[07:33] <Burgundavia> evo over tbird
[07:33] <rob^> yes, but its not optimal
[07:34] <Burgundavia> editing gconf is not somethign that should in a faqguide
[07:34] <rob^> I was the one who added nautlius and ftp to the doc
[07:34] <Burgundavia> cedega is going into the users guide
[07:34] <rob^> as for gconf, that is why we have gTweakUI
[07:34] <Burgundavia> that is crack
[07:34] <Burgundavia> there is no need to bother new users with that stuff
[07:34] <rob^> right, but a frequently asked question is "how do I play my windows games"
[07:34] <Burgundavia> for some
[07:35] <Burgundavia> the doc is bigger than #ubuntu
[07:35] <Burgundavia> I am shooting for Aunt Tillie and my step-mother
[07:35] <rob^> for Ubuntu's target users
[07:35] <Burgundavia> who could care less about windows games
[07:35] <rob^> most of which are migrating from windows
[07:35] <rob^> want to play windows games
[07:35] <Burgundavia> a select few
[07:35] <rob^> you are wrong
[07:35] <rob^> many do
[07:36] <Burgundavia> cedega is also really not easy to setup
[07:36] <rob^> its why a lot of people dont change or still dual boot
[07:36] <Burgundavia> needs its own guide
[07:36] <rob^> maybe, but it still needs to be addressed in the faq
[07:36] <Burgundavia> there will be a line in the games section
[07:36] <rob^> all thats there now is a link to a guide to install cedega
[07:36] <Burgundavia> pointing at the user guide
[07:37] <Burgundavia> which will go into windows games and ubuntu
[07:37] <rob^> yes
[07:37] <rob^> a link is fine
[07:37] <rob^> thats whats there now
[07:37] <Burgundavia> no
[07:37] <Burgundavia> you have a section
[07:37] <Burgundavia> the spec is sections and subsections
[07:37] <rob^> all the section was going to contain was a quick blurb and a link to a proper guide
[07:38] <Burgundavia> what appears on the left, not what appears on the right
[07:38] <rob^> the faq needs to be short
[07:38] <Burgundavia> that can be done from the main games section
[07:38] <rob^> and simple
[07:38] <Burgundavia> I agree
[07:38] <Burgundavia> that is why I removed some things that you added in
[07:38] <Burgundavia> they are not short or simple
[07:39] <rob^> look, this is going no where. you wont even listen to me here let alone on the spec
[07:39] <Burgundavia> dude, gconf and gtweakui is a power user thing
[07:39] <rob^> I'll discuss this further with matt
[07:39] <rob^> cya
[07:40] <Burgundavia> rob^, what do you want to add back in?
[07:40] <Burgundavia> lets talk specifics
[07:41] <Burgundavia> salut venda
[07:42] <venda> morn
[07:42] <Burgundavia> rob^ and I are having a disagreement about the FAQGuideReSpec
[07:42] <venda> k
[07:42] <Burgundavia> wondered if you would take a look
[07:43] <venda> what's the disagree
[07:43] <Burgundavia> I don't really know
[07:43] <venda> so what am I looking for :-)
[07:43] <Burgundavia> matt galvin and I did some brainstorming
[07:43] <Burgundavia> we came up with this spec
[07:44] <Burgundavia> you have probably seen the mailing list stuff
[07:44] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
[07:44] <Burgundavia> rob did some editing, adding a few things from the existing faq guide
[07:44] <Burgundavia> I disagreed with some and removed them
[07:45] <Burgundavia> citing a reason in the diff
[07:45] <Burgundavia> then he blanked it
[07:45] <Burgundavia> so I am trying to figure out a common ground
[07:46] <venda> carry on just reading the spec
[07:48] <venda> I don't understand that outline. It reads like a User Manual, not a FAQ
[07:49] <venda> this I mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
[07:49] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:49] <Burgundavia> I imagined each page as less than one screen
[07:49] <venda> You want FAQ to be a User Manual
[07:49] <Burgundavia> no
[07:50] <Burgundavia> those are frequently asked questions
[07:50] <Burgundavia> How do I create a dvd?
[07:50] <Burgundavia> etc.
[07:50] <Burgundavia> the most common stumbling blocks
[07:50] <Burgundavia> notice I add printers but not scanners
[07:51] <venda> Um FAQ is Question and Answer
[07:51] <venda> You can have divs between sections
[07:51] <Burgundavia> it is
[07:51] <Burgundavia> add How do I in front of each subsection
[07:52] <venda> Hold I must open the FAQ
[07:53] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco
[07:54] <jsgotangco> salut
[07:54] <venda> Burgundavia: you are proposing a very big change
[07:54] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:55] <venda> Burgundavia: rob^ has been hard at work for a few weeks now
[07:55] <Burgundavia> I just got commit access back, so I intend to do a lot of the writing, as well
[07:55] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, got an email from mdz on PDATesting, we're set but we have a very conservative baseline target
[07:55] <Burgundavia> I realize that
[07:55] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, ok
[07:55] <Burgundavia> so has mgalvin
[07:55] <jsgotangco> venda, hello
[07:55] <jsgotangco> wow thats nice
[07:55] <venda> Burgundavia: but rob^ has done the most
[07:55] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:56] <Burgundavia> he and I are trying to work out what the issues is
[07:56] <venda> mgalvin has done lots on user guide
[07:56] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what is nice?
[07:56] <venda> jsgotangco: hello
[07:56] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, getting commit access again
[07:56] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:57] <Burgundavia> venda, I had always intended to do this to the faq gude, just I was lazy about getting my commit access back
[07:57] <jsgotangco> i was playing around with Picasa on an xp box and i'm just at awe at what it can do
[07:57] <venda> Burgundavia: I would not make any dramatic changes without buyin from rob^ . He is the defacto document owner at present
[07:57] <venda> Burgundavia: lazy yes
[07:58] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:58] <Burgundavia> I just wanted your opinion
[07:58] <venda> Burgundavia: lazy does not mean you can just decide to do it now
[07:58] <Burgundavia> well, I have done what I think the faq needs
[07:58] <venda> Burgundavia: I think there may be a middle ground
[07:59] <jsgotangco> just sort things out between the two of you and im sure there is an acceptable compromise for both
[07:59] <venda> Burgundavia: sure, but always need to consider other authors
[07:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:59] <Burgundavia> not everything on that page is mine
[07:59] <Burgundavia> there is considerable input for mgalvin and rob
[08:00] <venda> Burgundavia: just a sec I wont to show you something
[08:07] <Burgundavia> venda, I have to go, pm me with it
[08:08] <venda> Burgundavia: update to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
[08:08] <venda> The outline now is designed to encompass a much larger set of questions
[08:09] <Burgundavia> umm, what is the stuff you pasted?
[08:09] <Burgundavia> the original toc?
[08:09] <venda> end of page
[08:09] <venda> that is the current outline
[08:09] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:09] <Burgundavia> thought as much
[08:09] <venda> The categories are much broader in perspective
[08:10] <venda> It helps to see them side by side
[08:10] <Burgundavia> yes
[08:10] <venda> The titles are short
[08:10] <venda> Rapid Information Retrieval
[08:10] <Burgundavia> totally useless for your average desktop user, IMHO
[08:10] <Burgundavia> installing printer vs. Hardware
[08:11] <Burgundavia> umm..
[08:11] <venda> when people search they look for keywords and categories
[08:11] <Burgundavia> anyway, I really have to go
[08:11] <venda> fine
[08:11] <Burgundavia> post to the list
[08:11] <Burgundavia> I am trying my new toc on my parents
[08:11] <Burgundavia> see what they think
[08:11] <venda> I think you should follow rob^
[08:12] <venda> sorry
[08:12] <Burgundavia> to be honest, I am not going to blindly follow somebody
[08:12] <Burgundavia> I didn't see a whole document visiion
[08:12] <Burgundavia> so I provided one
[08:12] <venda> Burgundavia:  he has done bulk of the work
[08:12] <venda> an dhe has a vision
[08:12] <Burgundavia> yes, but see above
[08:13] <venda> now you come in an dwant to turn that upside down
[08:13] <venda> I don't think it is helpful
[08:13] <Burgundavia> no
[08:13] <venda> not now
[08:13] <Burgundavia> I provided a vision
[08:13] <Burgundavia> I asked for his input
[08:13] <Burgundavia> and others
[08:13] <Burgundavia> and that was incorporated
[08:13] <venda> some weeks back when we asked for people to own docs
[08:13] <venda> that would have been a good time for discussion
[08:14] <Burgundavia> I considered our release cycle when I did this
[08:14] <venda> but rob^ has put in major work and nobody contested. Now to make a big change, like you are asking, no matter how good the idea. I s not right
[08:14] <Burgundavia> sep8 is when we stop writing
[08:14] <Burgundavia> venda, that is total crack
[08:15] <Burgundavia> and leads to bad docs
[08:15] <venda> Burgundavia: you have sat on the side for weeks
[08:15] <venda> and said nothing
[08:15] <venda> you have not done a commit in weeks
[08:15] <Burgundavia> if someone said to me that what I was writing was crack, then I would say ok
[08:15] <Burgundavia> provide me a better alternative
[08:15] <venda> he has been working hard
[08:15] <Burgundavia> that is what I have done
[08:15] <venda> changes are good, but not a revolution
[08:16] <Burgundavia> I saw no communicated vision
[08:16] <Burgundavia> we have a wiki for a reason
[08:16] <Burgundavia> if a spec had existed, I would have posted an email asking about certain changes
[08:17] <Burgundavia> ok, I am off
[08:17] <Burgundavia> will be back tomorrow for the NUN meeting
[08:58] <sivang> Burgundavia: what is the NUM meeting?
[08:58] <sivang> venda: 'sup Shawn ?
[09:03] <robitaille> sivang:  NewUserNetwork Meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda
[09:31] <sivang> robitaille: what is the NUM all about? helping new users?
[09:34] <robitaille> sivang:  I'm not that familiar with their actitivities, but it seems it is a group of people that want to help new users
[09:34] <robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
[09:35] <rob^> except some of them seem to think they are a group of people who tell docteam members what to do
[09:35] <robitaille> "The Aim of the Ubuntu New User Project is to try and help new Ubuntu Users get to grips with Ubuntu. Members of the New User Network will spend a lot of time on IRC, the forums and the mailinglists."
[09:36] <robitaille> I think the problem arose when they starting writing up wiki documents for new users; creating  a duplication of effort.
[12:02] <rob^> is anyone here?
[12:04] <rob^> aww come on!
[12:08] <rob^> I could really use some docbook advice
[12:08] <rob^> never mind
[12:08] <rob^> I figured it out :)
[12:37] <mdke> venda, agree with you.
[12:37] <mdke> corey has done this a little bit disruptively
[01:01] <rob^> yes
[01:03] <mdke> rob^, get together with those guys and have your input on the spec
[01:03] <rob^> yeah I tried that
[01:04] <rob^> corey basically ignored me
[01:04] <mdke> comments like this worry me a bit
[01:04] <mdke>         <!-- Despite the so called "spec", this will be done differently. A proper spec will be done at a later date -->
[01:04] <mdke> any division needs to be ended quickly and resolved
[01:05] <rob^> I know, but I dont want people editing it going off the spec that was done, as I have had no input into it
[01:05] <rob^> and corey wont accept any from me either
[01:06] <rob^> as it is the spec thats been done looks more like a userguide then a simple faq
[01:06] <rob^> and it addresses nothing in the faq guide
[01:06] <mdke> i haven't looked at it
[01:06] <rob^> its almost like saying "lets scrap all that and start again"
[01:06] <rob^> and I dont agree with it
[01:06] <mdke> that is what he is saying maybe
[01:06] <mdke> listen, the important thing is to get this resolved
[01:07] <mdke> we can mediate and you can sort it out with corey. but the important thing is that you can discuss it with mgalvin
[01:07] <mdke> k?
[01:07] <rob^> yes, I want to, but I'm not going to be told "this is how it is, like it or lump it" when I have done most of the work
[01:07] <rob^> I plan on discussing this with matt when I see him on here next
[01:08] <rob^> as I pointed out to corey today
[01:08] <mdke> good
[01:08] <mdke> it will be ok
[01:08] <rob^> froud, I agree
[01:08] <mdke> corey has a tendency to be too "final" in his comments
[01:08] <mdke> mgalvin and rob are leads
[01:09] <froud> rob^ leads it, he has the most work
[01:09] <mdke> they should talk, if necessary with the input of others in the team.
[01:09] <mdke> but I agree, those who do the work, have the most say
[01:09] <froud> rob^: I think there is some merit in what is being proposed. I think it is up to you to decide how much of the proposal you will accept.
[01:09] <mdke> but the aim of us all here is to make the most useful document for all
[01:09] <rob^> with my latest commit, it solves most of the problems corey is pointing out anyway
[01:10] <mdke> i also think there is merit in the proposal, but I believe in communication and I know that this problem can be resolved
[01:10] <rob^> I would have done this 2 days ago, but I do have a job
[01:10] <rob^> whist I'm happy to accept comments and critisims, theres a right way and wrong way to do it
[01:10] <rob^> and corey compleatly overstepped the mark
[01:11] <froud> rob^: you lead it, but stay open to channels. You have the final say until release on this document. After release, it becomes anybodys game again.
[01:11] <rob^> froud, agreed
[01:12] <mdke> as i said, corey has a tendency to be very "final" in his remarks
[01:12] <rob^> froud, and I'm happy to accept help in the mean time, but it needs to help not hinder
[01:12] <mdke> don't take it personally
[01:12] <froud> rob^: you seem to have already made a compromise with your last patch. This is good, because it does indicate that you are willing to work with outhers
[01:12] <rob^> froud, yes
[01:12] <rob^> froud, its something I have been working on paper anyway and some of the idea comes from what he said
[01:12] <froud> rob^: all that remains is for others o respect your position and main commiter on that document
[01:13] <froud> postion as main
[01:13] <rob^> oh, and I appreciate you all standing behind me on this as you have done
[01:13] <rob^> thanks
[01:14] <froud> rob^: you are doing a fantastic job.
[01:14] <froud> Until you, nobody was doing anything
[01:14] <rob^> yeah, I know
[01:14] <mdke> of course we will stand behind the person doing the work
[01:14] <mdke> but ideas are good, even if corey in this case has handled it badly
[01:15] <froud> rob^: however, there is some positive in their proposal
[01:15] <rob^> froud, I know
[01:15] <froud> rob^: first it shows that they do care
[01:15] <mdke> we should be working more as a team on specs, because the books we produce affect directly the documentation as a whole
[01:15] <rob^> and I have recognised this with him
[01:15] <mdke> [OT]  where are the cron logs?
[01:16] <froud> rob^: second it shows that people do want to help, but are lacking direction
[01:16] <rob^> in fact, at first I took a look at what he put on that page, and made a few suggestions of my own.
[01:16] <froud> rob^: I think that you can help channel their energy into a positive direction that is good for everyone
[01:17] <rob^> its when corey compleatly removed all my suggestions and even my name from the page is when I became annoyed
[01:17] <rob^> thats the only reason I took the stand I did
[01:17] <mdke> ouch
[01:17] <froud> rob^: I don't thin kitmatters now much
[01:17] <mdke> we'll talk to him, ok?
[01:17] <rob^> ok
[01:18] <mdke> froud, can you help me on something?
[01:19] <froud> rob^: what matters is that you remain focused and resolute on your target. Perhaps express your vision to people, embrace some of their ideas and find a new goal, focus and vision that encompasses the group of people willing to help
[01:19] <mdke> i setup a cron job on the docteam server and I can't tell if its working or not
[01:19] <mdke> where are the damn logs?
[01:19] <froud> syslog no?
[01:20] <mdke> lemme see
[01:20] <rob^> hmm
[01:21] <mdke> hmm indeed
[01:21] <rob^> I agree, my day job is heavily teamwork-focused, I am an expert at it
[01:22] <mdke> i don't think the cronjob has worked
[01:22] <froud> mdke: does not look like it :-)
[01:23] <rob^> I'm going to attempt to update the spec page with a few things, I am willing to work together so long as other are also
[01:23] <rob^> ^others
[01:23] <froud> fair enough, go for it. :-)
[01:24] <mdke> rob^, if you like you can create a /talk page for the spec and add comments
[01:24] <rob^> yeah, I might do
[01:24] <mdke> ok what have i done wrong. I did "crontab -e" as the relevant user, and added the following:
[01:25] <mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[01:25] <mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:25] <mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:25] <mdke> doesn't look like cron is even trying to use it
[01:26] <mpt> Burgundavia: I can understand the existence of (1) an "Ubuntu Manual" for non-admins, designed for print, (2) an "Ubuntu Admin Guide", designed for print, and (3) Ubuntu Help, designed for online use
[01:26] <mpt> I'm not sure how the "Quick" Guide fits in to that
[01:27] <mpt> Perrhaps it could be the basis for the Ubuntu Manual.
[01:27] <mgalvin> hi all
[01:27] <mpt> Oh, and (4) a "Quick Reference" designed for print.
[01:27] <mpt> That would be a one-page guide.
[01:28] <mdke> mgalvin, perhaps you can have a chat with rob^ about this respec business
[01:28] <froud> mdke: there is no /var/log/cron and /var/log/messages says nothing
[01:28] <froud> well noting about crontab
[01:29] <mdke> froud, i looked in syslog, it notes the changes in crontab but nothing else
[01:29] <froud> yes, seems it did not run :-(
[01:29] <mdke> any idea why?
[01:29] <froud> but you ran it as your user
[01:30] <froud> your user has rights in /srv
[01:30] <froud> Hmm
[01:30] <mdke> hang on a tic
[01:30] <mdke> if you do "users" it doesn't show that user
[01:30] <mdke> also, henrik is gone
[01:30] <mdke> what has happened?
[01:35] <froud> youwant my thoughts?
[01:35] <mdke> sure
[01:35] <froud> we should enable /home/*/public_html
[01:36] <froud> in apache and let you run it from there
[01:36] <mdke> froud, what about thoughts on the current question?
[01:36] <mdke> we can discuss public_html
[01:36] <froud> at present, does you account have root
[01:36] <froud> full root
[01:37] <mdke> the account I'm running the cronjob on is called ubuntu-docs and it has no admin capability
[01:37] <froud> if not then how can you run a crontab
[01:37] <froud> that requires such permissions
[01:37] <mdke> cron jobs can be run by any users
[01:37] <froud> hence it fails
[01:37] <mdke> no it doesn't!
[01:37] <froud> yes you want to copy to srv/
[01:38] <froud> how can ubuntu-docs cp to srv?
[01:38] <mdke> because it owns the relevant folder
[01:38] <mdke> but that's not the point
[01:38] <mdke> the cron job is not running at all
[01:40] <mdke> but the strange thing is that there seems to be no user called ubuntu-docs
[01:40] <mdke> or henrik
[01:41] <mdke> although their home directories are still there
[01:46] <froud> mdke: I can't use -u
[01:47] <froud> trying to see cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u
[01:48] <mdke> -u needs a user after it doesn't it?
[01:49] <mdke> and you need admin rights too i think
[01:49] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-doc
[01:49] <froud> crontab:  user `ubuntu-doc' unknown
[01:49] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$
[01:49] <mdke> ubuntu-docs
[01:50] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[01:50] <froud> must be privileged to use -u
[01:50] <froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$
[01:50] <mdke> yes
[01:50] <mdke> hang on
[01:51] <mdke> root@none:~ # cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[01:51] <mdke> crontab: usage error: no arguments permitted after this option
[01:52] <froud> exactly and that command works on my host
[01:52] <froud> without the user
[01:52] <froud> I can see all the crottabs on my machine
[01:52] <mdke> erm
[01:52] <mdke> root@none:~ # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[01:52] <mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[01:52] <mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:52] <mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[01:52] <mdke> the command is wrong dude
[01:53] <mdke> you run hoary on your host?
[01:53] <froud> yeah
[01:53] <mdke> hmm
[01:53] <froud> no my command is used to gather crontabs from all users
[01:54] <mdke> ok
[01:54] <mgalvin> mdke, yes rob^ and i will get together to talk about the repsec, i am on my way to work in a few min so we will be going over everything in a little while
[01:54] <mdke> mgalvin, great news
[01:54] <rob^> yeah
[01:55] <mdke> froud, i'll play around later and figure it out
[01:55] <mgalvin> bbl
[02:40] <mgalvin> back
[02:40] <rob^> cool
[03:15] <rob^> yes, so
[03:16] <rob^> the document outline is currently whats in svn
[03:34] <mgalvin> just a short recap, rob^ and I had a discussion(off channel) about what transpired yesterday which was forced quite a bit, we have resolved any and all concerns and will continue to move forward in a positve and constructive way, everyone(ESPECIALLY ALL of the most ACTIVE contributors) should be actively included in these types of discussions and developement, so lets get back to business together :)
[03:35] <rob^> yes, I agree
[03:44] <jjesse> are you guys talking about the changes to the FAQ guide
[03:44] <jjesse> cause i like how it looks
[03:45] <rob^> jjesse, have you see the latest one?
[03:45] <jjesse> i looked last night but was there a change made before 11pm EST
[03:46] <rob^> yeah, I have made a few big changes since
[03:46] <rob^> umm..
[03:47] <rob^> well if you look at svn now, you will see whats up to date :)
[03:47] <rob^> just build it
[03:49] <jjesse> ok checking it out
[03:49] <rob^> do you know when the live previews will work on DocteamProjects again?
[03:50] <rob^> (I realise they are in the process of changing servers)
[03:54] <jjesse> rob^ where in svn is that kept?
[03:54] <rob^> build/gnome/faqi386
[03:55] <rob^> or generic/faqguide/C/ for the .xml
[04:12] <mgalvin> hey rob^, what do you think about calling "Sound and Video" "Music and Movies", i am kindda partial to calling it that, that was my initial suggestion, seems a little more noob friendly imho
[04:12] <rob^> yeah its much of a muchness really
[04:12] <rob^> knock yourself out :P
[04:13] <rob^> (aussie humor)
[04:13] <mgalvin> :)
[04:14] <rob^> I'm about to send a msg to the list saying that comments on the spec should be sent to the list rather then edited on the wiki
[04:14] <rob^> this would exclude you and me however
[04:15] <mgalvin> ok
[04:15] <mgalvin> i feel so special ;)
[04:15] <rob^> cool
[04:15] <rob^> hehe
[04:19] <mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
[04:22] <jsgotangco> hey hows your day going
[04:24] <jsgotangco> hmmm why did the guy who filed in bugzilla sent it as documentation bug when its obviously hardware related
[04:24] <rob^> hehe yeah
[04:24] <rob^> the powerbook thing
[04:24] <mgalvin> pretty good, rob^ and I are pushing forward with the faqguide and i think some good progress is being made to resolve issues and make a rocking guide
[04:25] <jsgotangco> man the faqguide in svn is burning kudos to you rob^
[04:25] <rob^> :) thanks
[04:25] <jsgotangco> you too mgalvin
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i haven't been doing enough stuff lately because of issues at work and home
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i've been doing it in small patches though
[04:26] <mgalvin> thanks, rob^ has been blazing the trail recently and making great progress
[04:26] <jsgotangco> also have to make a main inclusion report after testing some stuff
[04:28] <jsgotangco> by chance is anyone here familiar with Oracle Applications? :)
[04:28] <rob^> no, sorry
[04:29] <mgalvin> i am a bit, whats up
[04:29] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: 11.5.9 you familiar with it
[04:29] <mgalvin> latest i have used extensively was 10g, but ask, maybe i can help
[04:30] <jsgotangco> (Oracle Financials)
[04:30] <jsgotangco> no, not the database
[04:30] <jsgotangco> Oracle 11i is E-Business suite using 9i db
[04:30] <mgalvin> no sorry, i have not used that one :-/
[04:31] <jsgotangco> its alright its kinda hard to look for people who worked with it really
[04:31] <jsgotangco> i usually talk to some indian at this time, but even we get conflicting solutions heh
[04:36] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: have you tried running 9i/10g in Ubuntu?
[04:36] <jsgotangco> (if its possible)
[04:37] <mgalvin> i haven't tried yet, but i have seen docs describing how to do it, i a pretty positive it should work
[04:38] <mgalvin> here is one
[04:38] <mgalvin> http://www.sussdorff.de/journal/one-entry?entry_id=27082
[04:38] <mgalvin> again, i haven't personally tired so, no promises
[04:39] <mgalvin> oracle docs also have lots of good stuff on what kernel params and such need to be set
[04:40] <jsgotangco> it would be interesting if ubuntu will push for support on such and oracle accepts
[04:40] <mgalvin> that would be pretty sweet
[04:40] <mgalvin> it would make ubuntu even more viable for enterprises
[04:41] <mgalvin> http://www.oracle-base.com/articles/10g/OracleDB10gInstallationOnFedora3.php
[04:41] <mgalvin> its for fedora, but just make appropriate path mods, etc...
[05:15] <mgalvin> rob^, you ok with moving installing flash into the internet section(seems more logical to me to put it there since it for inet stuff)
[05:15] <rob^> yeah, I wasnt sure on that one actually.
[05:16] <rob^> let me commit my change first
[05:16] <mgalvin> k
[05:17] <mgalvin> rob^, have you been using breezy at all yet?
[05:17] <rob^> I was before they broke x
[05:17] <mgalvin> hehe :)
[05:18] <mgalvin> i was thinking that we don't need mplayer and the mplayer plugin, totem provides these quite well now
[05:18] <mgalvin> i don't really like mplayer, but thats just my personal pref
[05:18] <mgalvin> totem, imho, is much nicer and easier to use
[05:19] <mgalvin> breezy already has totem and the totem plugin in it
[05:21] <rob^> yes I agree totem is nice, it runs like crap on my pc though, mplayer works good though
[05:21] <rob^> weard, that
[05:22] <rob^> oh, I've done the commit
[05:22] <mgalvin> have you tried totem with the xine backends
[05:22] <mgalvin> gstreamer is really sluggish
[05:22] <rob^> yeah, might do
[05:22] <rob^> I use to have that going on Breezy IIRC
[05:26] <rob^> hmm that works much better
[05:26] <rob^> stick totem-xine in for sure
[05:27] <mgalvin> :)
[05:28] <mgalvin> so possibly remove mplayer, this also may be a good idea since i know many people often have issues getting mplayer installed properly, especially on the ppc arch, totem just works
[05:29] <rob^> glad its friday
[05:29] <rob^> well saturday now
[05:29] <jsgotangco> heh yeah im ready to crash as well..but then its a weekend
[05:29] <mgalvin> ah TGIF
[05:29] <mgalvin> still 11:30 on firday here :)
[05:29] <mgalvin> am
[05:29] <jsgotangco> im in a separate PC across my table playing guild wars
[05:30] <jsgotangco> and wife is already asleep so i'll just pig out the whole night
[05:30] <rob^> yeah mine is too
[05:30] <mgalvin> rob^ i am gonna run xmlindent on the guide to just to clean it up a bit so its easier to read, any objections?
[05:31] <rob^> I gotta pass a fitness test soon so I cant pig out
[05:31] <rob^> nope
[05:31] <rob^> go ahead
[05:31] <mgalvin> k
[05:32] <jsgotangco> ahh i love the weekends its the only time my wife allows me to eat junk
[05:32] <rob^> maccas run?
[05:32] <rob^> hehe
[05:32] <rob^> that was a quick maccas run
[05:32] <jsgotangco> heheh
[05:32] <jsgotangco> i actually had a quarter pounder a few hours ago
[05:33] <jsgotangco> its been months since i last had one
[05:33] <rob^> time to hit the sack I think
[05:34] <rob^> b4 the bub wakes up
[05:35] <rob^> night all, have fun mgalvin
[05:35] <jsgotangco> night
[05:36] <mgalvin> night rob^
[05:38] <jsgotangco> i gotta sleep too heh
[05:38] <jsgotangco> night
[05:38] <mgalvin> night jsgotangco
[05:42] <mgalvin> rob^ are you still there, quick question
[05:45] <mgalvin> oh well, it'll wait till tomorrow
[06:06] <jsgotangco> gyahaahhhh
[06:07] <robitaille> yes?
[06:07] <jsgotangco> i get to be on the laptop testing team heh...i just got an email right now
[06:07] <robitaille> I just got mine as well.  I also did the little dance in my kitchen :)
[06:08] <jsgotangco> haha congrats to you too
[06:08] <jsgotangco> damn its 12am
[06:08] <robitaille> 9am here.  About to start packing to go camping for the week.
[06:09] <robitaille> no computer access for a full 7 days :)
[06:09] <jsgotangco> whoa
[06:09] <jsgotangco> robitaille: did you read #8
[06:09] <jsgotangco> 3 Ubuntu releases?
[06:10] <Burgundavia> you can always return it
[06:10] <robitaille> it used to be 2 in a draft version on the wiki.
[06:10] <jsgotangco> ahh
[06:10] <robitaille> It's only 18 months.
[06:10] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[06:10] <jsgotangco> that's not too much
[06:11] <robitaille> we do the debugging/testing anyway on our own :)
[06:11] <jsgotangco> i was reading wikipedia on miss universe winners...
[06:12] <robitaille> I see that jsgotangco is having a very busy evening while his wife is already sleeping
[06:13] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[06:13] <jsgotangco> (at least its wikipedia)
[06:14] <jsgotangco> and claire's email suddenly erased thoughts of sleeping
[06:14] <Burgundavia> now that is odd
[06:14] <Burgundavia> I got an email for Matthew Garret
[06:15] <jsgotangco> what about it?
[06:15] <Burgundavia> the laptop testing email
[06:17] <robitaille> yes it was from Claire, to Matthew.  I guess all the testers were BCC to it.
[06:18] <jsgotangco> hmmm is LaptopTestingSpec up to date?
[06:18] <Burgundavia> oh
[06:18] <Burgundavia> I didn't think I put my name down
[06:20] <Burgundavia> I didn't
[06:20] <Burgundavia> odd
[06:21] <jsgotangco> odd?
[06:21] <Burgundavia> I got an email from claire, regarding the laptop testing team when I didn't put my name down to be part of it
[06:22] <jsgotangco> well maybe they mjg59 has too many laptops in his pad and wants to dispose them
[06:23] <jsgotangco> surely he doesn't want to test them all by himself
[06:26] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  look at it in a positive way:  people really appreciate you bug-finding skills if they really want you on that team
[06:26] <jsgotangco> robitaille: scary thought...
[06:27] <Burgundavia> I guess so
[06:27] <jsgotangco> robitaille: next they'll be sending you servers to test...
[06:27] <Burgundavia> someone may have added me
[06:27] <jsgotangco> *ahem* blade servers
[06:28] <Burgundavia> those are the new and shiny ones, no?
[06:28] <Burgundavia> wouldn't mind them
[06:28] <robitaille> servers are often a bit noisy to put in my kitchen (the only place where I can fit a computer in this small apartment)
[06:29] <jsgotangco> yeah servers would rule as long as they won't get to be no bigger than an as400 machine
[06:29] <Burgundavia> I would have to sleep with a server, no thanks
[06:30] <Burgundavia> my cunning plan is to get my parents to colo my server, so to speak
[06:31] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: any universe app that might be a candidate for main needs an inclusion report?
[06:31] <Burgundavia> yes
[06:32] <Burgundavia> for good reason, as you saw in my list
[06:32] <Burgundavia> s/list/email to the list
[06:32] <jsgotangco> yes i'll make one then as mdz requested
[06:33] <Burgundavia> for edubuntu?
[06:34] <jsgotangco> well theres one for edubuntu and one for pda spec..or is it too late for an inclusion?
[06:34] <Burgundavia> no
[06:34] <Burgundavia> there is no seed freeze, afaik
[06:35] <Burgundavia> the edubuntu one, please put on the edubuntu page
[06:35] <jsgotangco> alright
[06:35] <mdke> Burgundavia, have you clarified with rob^ ?
[06:35] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes
[06:35] <mdke> good :)
[06:35] <jsgotangco> hey mdke
[06:35] <mdke> hiya
[06:36] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: p7zip is 7zip for nix?
[06:36] <Burgundavia> ya
[06:36] <jsgotangco> 7z is awesome
[06:37] <Burgundavia> at the very least, it needs some fixing
[06:37] <jsgotangco> hey mdke how's the tube
[06:37] <mdke> i haven't been in london a lot recently...
[06:37] <jsgotangco> understandable
[06:39] <robitaille> mdke:  got the laptop email?
[06:39] <mdke> yeah :)
[06:39] <mdke> dunno what hardware tho
[06:40] <jsgotangco> well pray its not a samsung or an acer heheh
[06:40] <jsgotangco> but the spec mostly covers dell, toshiba, hp and ibm
[06:43] <mdke> anything light would really be nice
[06:43] <mdke> but what the hell, its free!
[06:43] <robitaille> mdke:  you're the closest to them.  You will get the big paper-weight laptop to save shipping cost
[06:43] <jsgotangco> sure after 3 releases heh
[06:43] <jsgotangco> robitaille: hahah
[06:43] <mdke> noooooooooooo
[06:44] <jsgotangco> mdke: do uk people free to move in commonwealth states?
[06:45] <mdke> no idea
[06:45] <mdke> doubt it
[06:45] <jsgotangco> so much for having the same queen hehe :P
[06:45] <froud> no, but it is easier
[06:46] <mdke> froud has been to them all!
[06:46] <jsgotangco> is isle of man a state?
[06:47] <froud> if you have a BP marked as BC you will find it easy to move around
[06:47] <mdke> jsgotangco, part of the UK afaik, but not 100% sure
[06:47] <robitaille> jsgotangco: not really.  A friend of mine from UK was trying to move to Canada, and he had to go through the usual immigration red-tape.
[06:47] <jsgotangco> huh? what kind of englishman are you anyway ;)
[06:48] <mdke> bah
[06:48] <froud> robitaille: you have to use the channels, but believe me it is easier
[06:48] <mdke> i have only half english blood
[06:48] <froud> if I tried to move countries with my SA passport it would be difficult
[06:48] <jsgotangco> mdke: no tea and lemon biscuits then?
[06:48] <mdke> mmm
[06:48] <mdke> those come into the half that I've got
[06:48] <robitaille> tell that to a poor student who still had to pay hundred of dollars in visa fees :)  But I agree, it was probably a little bit easier.
[06:49] <jsgotangco> i agree
[06:49] <jsgotangco> to a poor urban professional like me hundreds of dollars is worth a lot
[06:52] <jsgotangco> hmmm how i wish OOo2 base would be as clear to use like filemaker
[07:04] <jsgotangco> mmm?
[07:05] <venda> network splits
[07:05] <venda> bah!
[07:12] <jsgotangco> thinks?
[07:12] <Burgundavia> I like to rabble rouse
[07:12] <Burgundavia> haven't you figured that out by now?
[07:13] <Kinnison> burgey: you *are* crazy
[07:15] <robitaille> the best is probably to find a VERY large pictures.  Try to some complex gimp transformation on it.  When it start swaping (especially if your swap space is a file on your ext3 disk) like crazy, then pull the plug.
[07:16] <robitaille> but a hammer also works very well to simulate disk problems and bad blocks
[07:23] <Kinnison> erm s/simulate/stimulate/
[07:23] <jsgotangco> damn i should stop playing san andreas, im beginning to speak like an east side gangster
[07:24] <Burgundavia> no I don't.   I hate MS, go away!
[07:25] <jsgotangco> how about your viagra emails heh
[07:25] <Burgundavia> ya, get those 2
[07:30] <jsgotangco> alright i really got to sleep now
[07:30] <jsgotangco> ciao
[07:53] <jjesse> from sean's earlier email i've started using the eclipse docbook plugin
[07:53] <jjesse> works great w/ the subversion plugin as well
[07:53] <venda> jjesse: have you found a way to stop it from changing the whitespace ?
[07:54] <jjesse> venda not yet still working on it, just found the subversion plugin so i'm going to working on it this weekend
[07:54] <venda> jjesse: you are talking aboyt vex, right?
[07:54] <jjesse> nod vex and subeclipse
[07:54] <venda> yes
[07:55] <venda> vex is nice for editing, but makes big changes in the whitespace
[07:55] <jjesse> thanks for letting me know about that... i will be careful
[07:55] <venda> open a file, save it and the diff it against svn you will see what I mean
[07:56] <venda> if we can find a way to stop that happening it will be bongo
[08:39] <thechitowncubs> Amarok page created last night
[08:41] <Burgundavia> noticed that
[08:41] <Burgundavia> cool
[09:01] <mdke> we need to make an effort on the documentation page to explain the guides. rather than "guide to x", maybe "guide to x, which does y"
[09:02] <Burgundavia> we should also spec all the docs ont eh wiki
[09:02] <Burgundavia> to prevent what just happened
[09:02] <mdke> yes
[09:03] <mdke> we agreed to do that two meetings back
[09:03] <Burgundavia> oh
[09:03] <mdke> although it'll be no use if you come along as say "this spec is wrong" :p
[09:03] <Burgundavia> I didn't
[09:03] <Burgundavia> there was no spec
[09:04] <mdke> i was being hypothetical
[09:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:04] <Burgundavia> the quick guide is also misspeced, but meh
[09:04] <mdke> lol
[09:04] <Burgundavia> I am going to work on the wiki, where I can actually change useful things
[09:04] <mdke> you have a real tendency to be very final in your suggestions
[09:05] <Burgundavia> I don't mean to
[09:05] <mdke> i know dude
[09:05] <mdke> just add IMO to every sentence
[09:05] <mdke> maybe an email signature :D
[09:05] <Burgundavia> ok, IMHO
[09:05] <Burgundavia> yes, IMHO
[09:05] <mdke> lol
[09:05] <mdke> :)
[09:06] <Burgundavia> the reason I sound that way is that I tend to spend about 6 months thinking about something
[09:06] <Burgundavia> then just move
[09:06] <mdke> i understand
[09:06] <Burgundavia> rather than dither about
[09:07] <mdke> but we have to work as a team
[09:07] <mdke> which means gathering opinions
[09:07] <Burgundavia> working as a team also means published what we plan to do
[09:07] <Burgundavia> I did
[09:07] <mdke> takes a bit longer, as Sean complains, but it makes for more love
[09:09] <Burgundavia> we need to be more agressive about promoting what we are working on
[09:09] <Burgundavia> then we can get more people, if their is a vision
[09:09] <mdke> agreed
[09:09] <mdke> the server should help
[09:09] <Burgundavia> we need spec pages on the wiki
[09:09] <Burgundavia> ala the style guide thingy
[09:10] <Burgundavia> so people can come in and start working, in a useful manner
[09:10] <mdke> agreed
[09:10] <Burgundavia> so, back to my thinking and doing
[09:10] <Burgundavia> I am going to fork the faqguide
[09:11] <mdke> i'm adding some explanations to the UserDocumentation page
[09:11] <mdke> oh yeah?
[09:11] <Burgundavia> create a common problems guide based on the spec that I worked on
[09:11] <mdke> ok
[09:11] <Burgundavia> going to keep it in baz
[09:11] <mdke> what are you gonna call it?
[09:11] <Burgundavia> Common Problems guide
[09:11] <mdke> sounds like the sort of thing mpt might be interested in
[09:11] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[09:11] <Burgundavia> that is the intention
[09:13] <mdke> have you got a spec already then?
[09:13] <Burgundavia> yes, the one that I created for the FAQGuide respec
[09:14] <Burgundavia> as it passed the father test
[09:14] <thechitowncubs> is the FAQGuide still under dispute?
[09:15] <Burgundavia> no
[09:15] <Burgundavia> I forked it
[09:15] <thechitowncubs> oh ok
[09:16] <Burgundavia> mdke, anything you want raised at the nun meeting?
[09:16] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec
[09:16] <mdke> except for the useless duplication of documentation on the wiki...
[09:16] <mdke> nothing else
[09:16] <Burgundavia> suggestions welcome
[09:17] <thechitowncubs> when is the nun meeting?
[09:17] <mdke> Burgundavia, will you be in bad cop mode at the meeting?
[09:17] <mdke> want me to come?
[09:17] <Burgundavia> I hope not to be
[09:17] <Burgundavia> see how it goes
[09:17] <mdke> go the diplomacy route... Mez understand our point of view
[09:18] <Burgundavia> so does Nalioth
[09:18] <mdke> if we get bad cop on them they'll just back into corners
[09:18] <Burgundavia> indeed
[09:18] <mdke> in the end, all we want to do is ensure that effort gets funnelled in the most efficient way
[09:18] <Burgundavia> I got to grab some lunch, feel free to comment on the commonprobs spec
[09:18] <mdke> ok
[09:19] <mdke> Burgundavia, i'm adding bold font to the program names in UserDocumentation, think its a good idea?
[09:19] <Burgundavia> just do it
[09:19] <Burgundavia> no idea right now, have to see it
[09:19] <mdke> ok yeah
[09:19] <mdke> me too
[09:20] <mgalvin> i started adding bold font to command name in the faqguide if you want to see an small example
[09:20] <mgalvin> look in the installing codecs section
[09:22] <thechitowncubs> i think bolding the links would look better
[09:24] <mdke> i've bolded the links in the software section
[09:24] <mdke> lemme know what you think
[09:24] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation
[09:27] <thechitowncubs> the links aren't bolded...
[09:29] <mdke> no
[09:29] <mdke> just the software names
[09:29] <mdke> sorry
[09:29] <mdke> s/links/names
[09:29] <thechitowncubs> i don't like the look of that
[09:29] <thechitowncubs> but thats my opinion...
[09:29] <mdke> can you explain why
[09:29] <mdke> i wanted your opinion :)
[09:30] <thechitowncubs> looks sloppy and erratic
[09:35] <mdke> ok
[09:35] <mdke> any ideas about how to make the names of the programs more readable from the text? italics?
[09:36] <thechitowncubs> Trying to think of a way as we speak
[09:37] <thechitowncubs> i think it would look better if each description had the name of the program in the same place
[09:38] <thechitowncubs> and then having the links in another place, not the first thing
[09:39] <thechitowncubs> For example:
[09:39] <thechitowncubs> I'm trying to think of the example :)
[09:39] <thechitowncubs> lol
[09:40] <thechitowncubs> i'll let you know when my idea matures a bit :)
[09:40] <mdke> i know what you mean, I think its a good idea
[09:40] <thechitowncubs> I don't think the link should be the first focus, i think the program should be and then the link somewhere else that is still highly noticeable
[09:43] <Seveas> mdke, ping
[09:44] <thechitowncubs> has anyone made a wiki team yet on launchpad?
[09:44] <mdke> Seveas, sup
[09:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, no
[09:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, interesting idea
[09:44] <thechitowncubs> are there plans for one :)
[09:44] <mdke> (the link thing, not the LP one)
[09:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, no
[09:44] <Seveas> mdke, NuN meeting in 15 minutes, you wanted me to ping you :)
[09:45] <mdke> Seveas, ah thanks, I may not be able to make it I'm afraid, but Burgundavia will hopefully set out the docteam view on stuff :)
[09:45] <Seveas> ok
[10:15] <kbrooks> So far so good.
[10:31] <Burgundavia> any page that you think needs help, can be listed on WikiToDo
[10:32] <Burgundavia> if you want to fix up a page, that is also where to go
[10:32] <kbrooks> ok, Burgundavia
[10:32] <Burgundavia> have any questions, just ask
[10:32] <highvoltage> I've written technical documentation for schools. Troubleshooting guides and getting started guides mostly.
[10:32] <Burgundavia> FileCompression and AudioCDCreation are fairly good examples
[10:32] <mdke> hi highvoltage
[10:32] <Burgundavia> of what we are looking for
[10:32] <highvoltage> hi mdke
[10:32] <mdke> thechitowncubs, i don't like the idea of structuring UserDocumentation by user. I think its better to structure it by subject
[10:33] <thechitowncubs> both has pros and cons
[10:33] <thechitowncubs> we'll see how things iron out
[10:33] <mdke> in terms of finding things, I think that makes it easier
[10:33] <mdke> but let's be honest: once that page becomes very long, people will use CTRL F to find stuff
[10:33] <Burgundavia> people tend to be tasked based
[10:33] <mdke> yes
[10:34] <Burgundavia> and there is a wierd mind-trip involved with "novice" and "expert" stuff
[10:34] <mdke> yes
[10:34] <Burgundavia> some people don't categorize themselves well
[10:34] <mdke> there is no dividing line
[10:34] <thechitowncubs> scrap that idea then...
[10:34] <Burgundavia> observe all the poor fools who do the expert install in Ubuntu and then mess it up
[10:34] <thechitowncubs> i just thought some users looking for docs might be burdened by the vocabulary, level of difficulty surrounding the tutorial, etc
[10:35] <Burgundavia> then simply the language
[10:35] <Burgundavia> I have an MCSE and I still love simple docs
[10:35] <mdke> yeah we need to simplify the whole document
[10:35] <Burgundavia> s/MCSE/training towards an MCSE/
[10:35] <highvoltage> no comment :)
[10:36] <mdke> what is that?
[10:36] <thechitowncubs> UserDocumentation has a bright future indeed, i'm excited to start working on it after the meeting
[10:36] <Burgundavia> what I am saying is that just becuase you are an "expert" doesn't mean you don't want plain english docs
[10:36] <Burgundavia> Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
[10:36] <mdke> eww
[10:37] <highvoltage> I always thought it was Minesweeper Consultant Solitaire Expert.
[10:37] <highvoltage> but now we're going OT :)
[10:37] <kbrooks> Burgundavia: why do you have a MCSE?
[10:37] <Burgundavia> kbrooks, because I do
[10:37] <Burgundavia> before I saw the light
[10:38] <kbrooks> Burgundavia: silly you
[10:38] <Burgundavia> I never want to touch another windows machine in my life
[10:39] <Burgundavia> mdke, thechitowncubs just created it
[10:39] <mdke> jeez
[10:39] <mdke> bloody hell
[10:39] <Burgundavia> it can be a subsection of the docteam
[10:39] <Burgundavia> lp allows that
[10:39] <mdke> this obsession with creating LP teams gets on my nerves SO much
[10:39] <Burgundavia> but there is no docteam lp team
[10:39] <thechitowncubs> oh :/
[10:40] <thechitowncubs> obsession?
[10:40] <mdke> plus, the wiki team is not "people who write docs on the wiki"
[10:40] <Burgundavia> it can be
[10:40] <mdke> its "people who work on technical problems on the wiki"
[10:40] <thechitowncubs> its a team of wiki contributers... thats what i always looked at it as
[10:40] <mdke> Burgundavia, no, because there is no reason for creating a team which includes the whole universe
[10:40] <mdke> EVERYONE has access to editing the wiki
[10:40] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:41] <Burgundavia> I think it is useful
[10:41] <mdke> the idea of the wiki team was to create a group if it was necessary to implement access rights
[10:41] <Burgundavia> well, the people in the wiki team are the people who are heavily editing the wiki
[10:41] <mdke> i think it will be used as a status symbol, like many of the other new launchpad teams, and has no purpose
[10:41] <thechitowncubs> a team is a group of people working together, so a wiki team sounds ideal
[10:41] <Burgundavia> and thus most likely to be trusted with those access rights
[10:41] <thechitowncubs> its good for notifying users of changes, stuff like that
[10:42] <Burgundavia> mdke, we are eventually going to have to turn off deletion for everybody
[10:42] <mdke> launchpad groups have no function except for status symbols
[10:42] <Burgundavia> the team merely identifies who is actively working ont eh wiki
[10:42] <mdke> Burgundavia, yes, but you can't activate that through launchpad
[10:42] <Burgundavia> but as lp gets further integrated into the wiki, it will matter
[10:42] <Burgundavia> the point of lp is to be "the place" for this stuff
[10:43] <mdke> it will never be sufficiently integrated with the wiki to define access rights on it
[10:43] <mdke> s/never/not for a long time
[10:43] <thechitowncubs> what is your obbsession with access rights?
[10:43] <mdke> thechitowncubs, let me explain.
[10:43] <thechitowncubs> sounds great
[10:44] <mdke> thechitowncubs, i see the creation of groups as useful when it serves a purpose. In this case, given that the whole point of the wiki is that EVERYONE can edit and improve it, the only reason for a group would be to define those people who have extended access rights, such as the ability to delete pages, move pages, modify wiki configuration etc.
[10:44] <mdke> this isn't implemented
[10:44] <mdke> thus, no need for a defined group
[10:44] <mdke> especially not a LP team
[10:45] <thechitowncubs> i think it just promotes team work and efficiency
[10:45] <mdke> what we have now is 2 wiki teams, one designed by us previously as people who take care of the structure of the wiki, another one created now, who edit the content of the wiki
[10:45] <mdke> 2 teams, same name
[10:45] <mdke> = bad
[10:45] <mdke> this is partly the fault of lack of definition of the first team tho, not yours
[10:46] <Burgundavia> ouch
[10:46] <mdke> this is all my opinion of course
[10:47] <mdke> i haven't convinced you tho, thechitowncubs ?
[10:48] <robitaille> I don't see the problem.  wiki team exist here.  Exist on the lauchpad as well as a way to track down its members, and maybe be used for other usage (mailing list...access right to more permanent wiki pages, etc.)
[10:48] <mdke> the teams have different objectives as I see it
[10:48] <robitaille> right now it is useless..but within 6 month LP will be the center of our Ubuntu Universe.
[10:48] <thechitowncubs> The wiki team on launchpad isn't a different team in my view
[10:49] <Burgundavia> I suspect that if the work needed to be done regarding wiki/lp integration, then it will happen
[10:49] <mdke> thechitowncubs, ah
[10:49] <mdke> thechitowncubs, well there is a difference in membership
[10:49] <mdke> and I think, objectives
[10:49] <robitaille> right....the wiki team on LP IS the wiki team.  You want to help...instead of having a wiki page with our members name, we have a group page on LP.
[10:49] <thechitowncubs> i just started the team because there wasn't one on launchpad, and i knew there was one created
[10:50] <mdke> ok but if it is going to involve taking care of the structure of the wiki, a prerequisite must be knowledge of the wiki software and organisation, rather than the writing of documentation
[10:51] <thechitowncubs> fair enough
[10:51] <mdke> hmm
[10:51] <mdke> we need to get common objectives for the two teams then
[10:52] <mdke> i mean the one team
[10:52] <thechitowncubs> how large is the "current" more important wiki team?
[10:52] <mdke> its not more important
[10:53] <mdke> its less important if anything, because the docs are more important than fixing broken links and deleting pages and so on
[10:53] <mdke> but so far we have kinda failed to define what the team is about
[10:54] <thechitowncubs> Its a team of active wiki contributers that new writers/contributers can look to for question guidance on what to do and also a way of working as a team to get things done quicker without redundancy.
[10:55] <mdke> ok
[10:55] <mdke> sounds good
[10:55] <thechitowncubs> :)
[10:55] <mdke> what are we gonna do with the old wiki team?
[10:56] <mdke> careful Burgundavia, you're listed too
[10:56] <Burgundavia> ahh
[10:56] <Burgundavia> yes I know
[10:57] <thechitowncubs> should robitaille be considered an administrator?
[10:57] <Burgundavia> why I don't run gentoo --> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74072
[10:58] <Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, if he says yes
[10:58] <mdke> thechitowncubs, what is the role of an administrator?
[10:58] <Burgundavia> approves new people into the group
[10:58] <mdke> ah its a moderated team?
[10:58] <mdke> okay
[10:59] <thechitowncubs> its just moderated to get to know new users and just to be more organized and intertwined
[10:59] <mdke> we should think about merging this team with WikiTeam on the wiki
[10:59] <mdke> thechitowncubs, yeah good idea
[10:59] <thechitowncubs> mdke: sounds good to me
[10:59] <mdke> change the contact address to the docteam mailing list?
[11:00] <thechitowncubs> sounds good, whats the address
[11:00] <Burgundavia> I will do it
[11:00] <mdke> thechitowncubs, you should subscribe tho
[11:00] <mdke> lots of wiki talk goes there
[11:00] <thechitowncubs> alright, will do
[11:00] <Burgundavia> mdke, I am not an ubuntu-doc admin, can you approve that addy to the list?
[11:00] <mdke> sorry I mean WikiTalk *nudges Burgundavia*
[11:01] <mdke> Burgundavia, me neither
[11:01] <Burgundavia> have to wait for jerome
[11:02] <robitaille> thechitowncubs: I can be administrator.  no preference one way or the other.
[11:02] <Burgundavia> more admin means less likelyhood of awol people holding the whole thing up
[11:02] <mdke> thechitowncubs, i've started the merge, will you edit the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam to add what you see this team doing?
[11:02] <thechitowncubs> sounds good :)
[11:03] <robitaille> can bugs be assigned to a LP team?  If we ever get a wiki "bug" via Malone...
[11:04] <mdke> robitaille, yes i presume so
[11:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:04] <Burgundavia> and we can even own "products"
[11:04] <robitaille> so should we do a Docteam team?  and send bugs to it?
[11:04] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:04] <kbrooks> brb
[11:05] <mdke> who should the docteam team contain? svn account holders?
[11:05] <robitaille> and there is that calendar things that is slowly coming online in LP.  I suspect one day, teams will send up their future meeting ammouncement via this.
[11:05] <mdke> that's a bit restrictive
[11:05] <mdke> yeah the calendar thing looks cool
[11:06] <robitaille> and then wiki team will be a member of the doc team.  I think teams can be members of other teams.
[11:06] <Burgundavia> so we can all have hula addys from launchpad
[11:06] <mdke> problem is, if the docteam starts using baz, then the docteam group in launchpad should probably be people who have access to that repository
[11:06] <thechitowncubs> this launchpad is really coming together :)
[11:06] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:07] <mdke> long way to go yet
[11:07] <robitaille> but LP is much better than even a couple of months ago.  It's actually usable now
[11:07] <mdke> more or less...
[11:08] <Burgundavia> LP is going to be more usable
[11:08] <Burgundavia> and it is being worked on
[11:08] <mdke> who has done some sysadmin on an ubuntu system?
[11:08] <Burgundavia> god knows how much money sabdfl has spent on lp so far
[11:08] <Burgundavia> mdke, what are you trying to do?
[11:09] <highvoltage> i have, i think. depending on the definition of sysadmin.
[11:09] <mdke> i'm trying to figure out how come my cron job on the docteam server isn't working
[11:09] <robitaille> mdke: I sysadmin my computer :)
[11:09] <Burgundavia> does the script work?
[11:09] <robitaille> and I used to a sysadmin in a previous life
[11:09] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah
[11:09] <robitaille> is doesn't run at all?
[11:09] <Burgundavia> what isn't it doing?
[11:10] <mdke> it doesn't look like it runs at all
[11:10] <mdke> do i need the user in a particular group?
[11:10] <mdke> also, where are the cron logs?
[11:10] <robitaille> are you sure it is running at the time you think it should run?  i.e what is the time zone of the box?
[11:10] <mdke> they should have their own folder
[11:10] <mdke> robitaille, yeah checked
[11:12] <robitaille> have you tried a very simple script?  maybe something that pipe something to a file to check if it actually runs
[11:12] <mdke> the scripts work in the command line... thing is, i can't find a single log that says that something is happening at that time of day
[11:13] <mdke> i'll paste the crontab
[11:13] <Burgundavia> the other thing to try is to try the script in the cron job on your machine
[11:13] <mdke> i have a gentoo server
[11:13] <mdke> i'll try on my laptop, good idea
[11:13] <mdke> this is the crontab
[11:13] <mdke> root@none:/var/log # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
[11:13] <mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[11:13] <mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[11:14] <mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
[11:15] <mdke> it doesn't seem to even have done the first line
[11:16] <mdke> trying on my laptop
[11:17] <robitaille> why don't you but these commands in one script?  I'm always of multiple commands with && in one single crontab line.
[11:17] <robitaille> s/^afraid^
[11:17] <mdke> ah ok
[11:18] <mdke> but i wanted to make sure each line was done before the next one started
[11:18] <mdke> what would the script be?
[11:18] <robitaille> then if you remove the hour part, just keep the minute for now for testing purpose; then you can test it every couple of minute.
[11:18] <robitaille> You will have 3 script, one per line:
[11:18] <robitaille> #!/bin/sh
[11:18] <robitaille> cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
[11:19] <mdke> ok
[11:19] <mdke> etc
[11:19] <mdke> thanks dude
[11:19] <mdke> trying
[11:19] <robitaille> personally I always found it cleaning to keep the crontab lines very simple.
[11:19] <robitaille> s/cleaning/cleaner/
[11:23] <mdke> robitaille, so is this cool?
[11:23] <mdke> ubuntu-docs@none:~$ crontab -l
[11:23] <mdke> 0 2 * * * ./svn_up
[11:23] <mdke> 0 4 * * * ./copy_gnome_to_webspace
[11:23] <mdke> 0 6 * * * ./copy_kde_to_webspace
[11:24] <robitaille> you need full paths to these scripts.  You have to assume very basic environment for any cron job
[11:24] <mdke> argh
[11:24] <mdke> sorry
[11:24] <mdke> so /home/ubuntu-docs/./svn_up?
[11:24] <mdke> sorry for being thick
[11:24] <Burgundavia> /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:24] <Burgundavia> assuming they are in the root of the users home dir
[11:24] <robitaille> don't worry...I have done these mistakes many times before; sometimes it works, but not always
[11:24] <Burgundavia> ./home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:24] <Burgundavia> I think
[11:25] <mdke> /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up seems to work from the command line
[11:25] <robitaille> yes, /home...should work
[11:28] <mdke> testing now
[11:28] <mdke> we'll see if it works
[11:29] <mdke> robitaille, afayk, is the minutes format in the crontab ok?
[11:30] <robitaille> looking at my machine
[11:30] <robitaille> 00 22 * * *  /mnt/music/podcast/bashpodder.shell
[11:31] <robitaille> yes, yours shuold be fine.  Are far in advance you try it?  Some machine need over a minute of no changes to the crontab to make it to work.
[11:31] <mdke> hmm
[11:31] <mdke> ok i've set it to test for now
[11:32] <mdke> 30 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:32] <mdke> 33 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_gnome_to_webspace
[11:32] <mdke> 36 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_kde_to_webspace
[11:32] <mdke> not sure if I had a clear minute ;)
[11:34] <robitaille> so if you do "date", you are at 5pm on that machine?
[11:34] <mdke> 17.34
[11:34] <robitaille> great
[11:35] <mdke> have to give it a few minutes
[11:37] <robitaille> you can also you
[11:37] <robitaille> use "at" to test scripts
[11:37] <robitaille> "at now"
[11:37] <kbrooks> at?
[11:37] <robitaille> then cut and pase your script  /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up  then do a control-d
[11:38] <robitaille> man at :)
[11:39] <thechitowncubs> lol
[11:40] <robitaille> I love at..  You can do things like "at now +1min" to run script in the future
[11:41] <robitaille> I would offer to actually login on that box to debug it....but I'll be gone for the next week.  Maybe when I return.
[11:44] <mdke> hmm
[11:45] <mdke> thanks robitaille
[11:45] <mdke> it hasn't worked :(
[11:45] <mdke> script looks alright
[11:45] <mdke> cron is obviously just not starting the job
[11:46] <mdke> nor on my laptop
[11:47] <mdke> oh hang on
[11:47] <mdke> it has worked on my laptop
[11:47] <robitaille> have you tried without the hour for now:
[11:47] <robitaille> 50 *  * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
[11:47] <mdke> trying now
[11:47] <robitaille> that would eliminate a time issue
[11:48] <mdke> ubuntu-docs@none:/home/matt$ crontab -l
[11:48] <mdke> 50 * * * * mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test
[11:49] <mdke> thechitowncubs, ok i removed the bold from the software section and tried something else - like it?
[11:50] <thechitowncubs> I like that a lot ore
[11:50] <thechitowncubs> more
[11:50] <thechitowncubs> a lot more user friendly :)
[11:51] <mdke> robitaille, in my /var/log/syslog on my laptop I can see the cronjob working
[11:51] <mdke> not on the server though
[11:51] <mdke> thechitowncubs, cool
[11:51] <mdke> robitaille, the mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test/ hasn't worked
[11:53] <robitaille> i'm trying a crontab on my hoary to see if I get something in my logs
[11:53] <robitaille> just to double check:  chmod u+x /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up  ?
[11:54] <Burgundavia> robitaille, are you not subscribed to the whole wiki anymore?
[11:54] <robitaille> I removed earlier myself since I'll be gone for the week.  I don't want 1000 emails waiting for me next weekend
[11:54] <Burgundavia> ah
[11:54] <thechitowncubs> smart
[11:54] <mdke> robitaille, i did the +x
[11:55] <mdke> you can always use RecentChanges rather than email subscriptions
[11:55] <mdke> its a lot better than on the previous wiki software
[11:55] <kbrooks> someone in #ubuntu?
[11:55] <robitaille> yes, on hoary crontab leaves something in /var/log/syslog
[11:55] <robitaille> Jul 22 14:54:01 localhost /USR/SBIN/CRON[14643] : (daniel) CMD (/home/daniel/test.sh)
[11:56] <Burgundavia> RecentChanges is actually usable
[11:56] <mdke> robitaille, yeah i see it on my laptop
[11:58] <mdke> robitaille, you think i need to add the user to some kind of group?
[12:00] <robitaille> mdke:  I don't think so.  Unless the setup of that box is more restrictive than a normal hoary install?
[12:00] <robitaille> I don't even know where to look for that.
[12:00] <mdke> i guess its a server install
[12:00] <mdke> he did a warty install then upped it to hoary
[12:02] <thechitowncubs> audiocdcreation updated
[12:02] <mdke> robitaille, just noticed something that rules that out
[12:02] <mdke> robitaille, the root crontab isn't running either
[12:02] <mdke> i think


[06:15] <Angel_Of_Sorrow> hey.....
[06:15] <Angel_Of_Sorrow> i have been banned from #Ubuntu for no reason?
[06:15] <Angel_Of_Sorrow> they let me in for a few minutes then i get a ban after not even writting anything
[06:28] <Angel_Of_Sorrow> ??
[06:36] <elky> You appear to be demonstrating the necessity of the ban in #ubuntu-offtopic.
[06:44] <elky> I am also pretty certain you are CosmikDaniel who was banned from #ubuntu on January 2nd following abusive language after being instructed to follow the guidelines.
[06:44] <elky> Thus, the new ban has the extra weight of preventing ban evasion.
[13:59] <LjL> choozez
[14:12] <hggdh> trans
[14:12] <hggdh> ugh, wrong terminal, sorry
[14:13] <LjL> no, just gay
[14:14] <hggdh> :-)
[18:24] <Go|dFish_> Hi
[18:24] <Go|dFish_> Does Tom Brady have a Machine HEad
[18:25] <Go|dFish_> !ops
[18:25] <Go|dFish_> Does Tom Brady have a Machine HEad
[18:26] <IdleOne> last time I checked, no.
[18:26] <Go|dFish_> IdleOne: how come we dont talk anymore
[18:26] <Go|dFish_> we used to be like family
[18:26] <Go|dFish_> this bullshit cant be true
[18:26] <LjL> maybe we need to think about things
[18:26] <LjL> take a break
[18:26] <LjL> maybe see other people
[18:26] <IdleOne> Go|dFish_: the bad language is why we stopped talking
[18:27] <Go|dFish_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UYY8Oo5MzI
[18:27] <Go|dFish_> THIS BULLSHIT cant be true WE ALL USED TO BE A FAMILY
[18:28] <IdleOne> I think what really caused the split was when you started listening to that rock n roll music
[18:29] <IdleOne> soon after that you became withdrawn and uncommunicative
[18:30] <LjL> rock and roll
[18:30] <LjL> come on
[18:30] <LjL> that's positively satanic
[18:31] <LjL> please, Go|dFish_, i wish you all the best. you need to repent.
[18:31] <Go|dFish_> JESUS IS COMING bACK
[18:31] <LjL> that always works
[18:31] <IdleOne> I hope this time he brings some donuts
[18:37] <tsimpson> holy ones, or ones with jam?
[18:37] <IdleOne> both
[18:37] <IdleOne> holy jammers
[18:39] <hggdh> heh
[19:13] <bazhang> we need to tell him about tpb lens
 plaise server cart credit ?
[19:32] <ikonia> I have no idea what that means
[19:32] <ikonia> I just saw it too
[19:32] <bazhang> cc #s?
[19:49] <drunkloser> !ops
[19:50] <jbroome> wat
[19:54] <drunkloser> I love someone who is married to a husband how can i break them up?
[19:55] <hggdh> the blood of the saints have power (but only from dead saints)
[19:56] <bazhang> hggdh, heh
[19:56] <bazhang> congrats on being named to the council btw
[19:56] <hggdh> bazhang: thank you
[19:56] <NictraSavios> Hello, am I banned on #Ubuntu? I get "#ubuntu :Cannot send to channel" when I try to query for assistance.
[20:00] <Pici> NictraSavios: looks like you have a mute against you.  Please hold on, and another op will be with you.
[20:00] <Pici> (I have a conference call I need to attend right now :/)
[20:01] <LjL> @btlogin
[20:01] <NictraSavios> Thank you very much.
[20:02] <LjL> urgh drama
[20:03] <LjL> i see there have been a few kicks/bans on you NictraSavios, anyway since i'm not actually an #ubuntu op, i can't do much about this one... still, maybe being less argumentative would help ;(
[20:07] <NictraSavios> LjL, Haha, I have has this account for a long time. I'm not sure if they have date stamps, but many are from highschool. Lets just say I've matured a lot since then, but then again don't we all? Albeit, I do come off a little up tight and admittedly I do question things to find out "why"... which can come off wrong. Besides that, yeah.. I can be argumentative in a bad way and slightly random/off-topic occasionally. Those are issues
[20:07] <NictraSavios> that I have been making an effort to resolve (Under other nicknames).
[20:09] <LjL> NictraSavios: well the bans i saw were between 2011 and 2013, the last 2011 one was me banning you because you were giving a command line to obliterate a partition ;( anyway, the current one is just a mute, so it can probably be assumed it wasn't something *extremely* serious, and an op will remove it after talking about it
[20:12] <NictraSavios> I know what it was from. I used a word which I cannot spell out since I don't want *another* ban. But, it was an auto mute for a curse.
[20:12] <LjL> no, it wasn't very auto
[20:13] <IdleOne> there was no cursing, you were being argumentative and offering random help without having any knowledge of the problem at hand, which seems to be a recurring theme for you.
[20:16] <NictraSavios> Oh, coincidence then. I was begin argumentative because I *thought* that I knew what was going on, because from what I did read it sounded like a topic I knew a lot on. (In the past that was *NOT* the case, I just *thought* I knew a lot about what I was doing. 2 years and a lot of books, and a lot of growing have changed that.) I was wrong, but it turned into a debate about *why* I shouldn't have butted in, and I became defensive (A
[20:16] <NictraSavios> nd stupid... lets not forget stupid and ignorant.). Trust me, this is not just an online issue... Its something that has been a reocurring issue for me in real life and that I *am* working on.
[20:17] <LjL> at least, your lines are about as long as mines, if not more
[20:17] <LjL> i like that
[20:19] <IdleOne> What has changed since Dec 29th 2013 that would lead us to believe you won't behave in the same way you have in the past 2-3 years?
[20:21] <NictraSavios> Have you ever met someone who changed over night? Without any mistakes they went from the black jacket know it all to an adult? Yeah, I'm going to make mistakes. The point is, they are getting less frequent. (At least, I think they are. If not, let me know so I can figure out why, and work harder)
[20:22] <NictraSavios> I'm still not an adult, I'm just... finally realizing that I have to treat people the same way I want to be treated and most importantly, learn to shut up and walk away.
[20:23] <NictraSavios> Actually, more correctly: I need to learn to apologize, then shut up and walk away.
[20:23] <NictraSavios> And this realization isn't something that happened recently. I'm a human: work in progress.
[20:27] <IdleOne> NictraSavios: I'll remove the mute but I would like you to read the guidelines for using ubuntu channels.
[20:27] <IdleOne> !guidelines
[20:27] <IdleOne> Please make sure you do.
[20:27] <NictraSavios> I'll do that before saying another word in #ubuntu
[20:29] <IdleOne> alright, thanks and have a good day
[20:30] <NictraSavios> Thank you, you too!
[22:56] <k1l> jtrucks: should talk to "peer" :)
[22:59] <knome> ooops...
[22:59] <k1l> hehe :)
[23:56] <LjL> jtrucks: are you trying to be the new funkyhat
[23:57] <LjL> also, how did ldunn get caught into this
[23:57] <LjL> also, why did topyli leave
[23:57] <LjL> WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING