[07:00] <mthaddon> jam: you may be interested in https://code.launchpad.net/~pjdc/charm-k8s-mattermost/+git/charm-k8s-mattermost/+merge/385953 - just looking over it now myself
[07:22] <jam> mthaddon, thanks for the heads up
[07:25] <mthaddon> jam: have just asked for some updates - I noticed the test pod spec structure is a bit different from what we're actually defining in the charm
[08:46] <Chipaca> 👋
[09:16] <jam> heh
[09:17] <jam> so it actually was something different than I thought
[09:17] <jam> Chipaca, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/4RKzm4PW5h/
[09:17] <jam> so I noticed that if I did: foo: "bar: 42" | state-set --file -
[09:17] <jam> then when I did 'state-get'
[09:17] <jam> It would say:
[09:17] <jam> foo: "bar: 42"
[09:17] <jam> but if I did
[09:18] <jam> foo: |\n  bar: 42 | state-set -file -
[09:18] <jam> then the output would be
[09:18] <jam> foo: |
[09:18] <jam>   bar: 42
[09:18] <jam> However, that is because those 2 strings are subtly different, can you tell why?
[09:19] <Chipaca> jam: newline?
[09:19] <jam> Chipaca, yep '|' includes a trailing newline '|-' and the one-line form do not
[09:19] <Chipaca> phew
[09:20] <Chipaca> if it wasn't that, it was cursed :-)
[09:20] <jam> Chipaca, you can see the output of 'state-get foo' was 'bar: 42\n\n'
[09:20] <jam> I thought it was somehow remembering how I set the value and preserving it, which didn't really make sense
[09:20] <Chipaca> bar: 12\n\n i guess?
[09:21] <Chipaca> i believe preserving layout was one of the goals of gustavo's yaml.v3, but i'm not 100% positive on that (nor on whether he achieved it)
[09:21] <Chipaca> i never got to play with that, actually
[09:21] <Chipaca> still on my ToDo
[09:23] <jam> Chipaca, that is as go not python, though, right?
[09:23] <jam> and not a YAML spec but just a parser quirk?
[09:23] <Chipaca> correct
[09:24] <jam> Chipaca, do we think it is a problem if we treat foo='' as NoSnapshot ?
[09:24] <Chipaca> and maybe it wasn't layout but comments?
[09:24] <jam> It is fine as long as your snapshot isn't just a string that can be empty
[09:24] <jam> (we could enforce snapshots are dicts again :)
[09:24] <jam> Chipaca, or I could do the "if we get '' read the whole state-get and see whether the key exists"
[09:25] <Chipaca> so this is only a problem for a snapshot that serialises as a string, and only if it cares about the difference between a string and not being there
[09:25] <Chipaca> right?
[09:26] <Chipaca> snapshot returns a simple serialisable object and the ones writing it out into yaml is us, right?
[09:26] <Chipaca> so what we could do, if the above is right, is !!str strings
[09:26] <jam> Chipaca, actually, it isn't a problem, because we yaml.dump('') => "''\n"
[09:26] <Chipaca> and then we know because we get '' vs '!!str ""'
[09:26] <jam> yaml.load('') => None, but yaml.lod("''\n") => ''
[09:26] <Chipaca> ahhhh
[09:27] <Chipaca> also aaaaah *and* ahahaha
[09:27] <Chipaca> jam: cool cool, then :)
[09:27] <jam> Chipaca, I'll make sure to add '' to my permutation tests
[09:31] <jam> hm. seems I also need to handle None
[09:31] <jam> >>> print(yaml.dump(None))
[09:31] <jam> null
[09:31] <jam> ...
[09:32] <jam> yaml.safe_load('') => None, yaml.safe_load('null\n...\n') => None
[09:35] <jam> Chipaca, and, of course, I'm simulating some of this via my own scripts, which is definitely stuff that I'd want to test against actual Juju
[09:43] <Chipaca> jam: do we have a list of 'things we want to try in real jujus tee emm'? (should we?)
[09:44] <jam> Chipaca, well, I consider that writing a 'juju test suite' as part of test-main was one of my goals of this PR
[09:45] <Chipaca> facundo__: 'charmcraft --verbose build' not being exactly the same as 'charmcraft build --verbose' is surprising and painful
[09:45] <jam> but we can split it out if we prefer
[09:46] <Chipaca> jam: i hadn't realised that, is there any of this already up? (how were you approaching it?)
[09:46] <Chipaca> s/were/are/
[09:48] <jam> Chipaca, that was part of my trying to make test-main be a RealCharm
[09:48] <jam> but it isn't something I've actively started
[09:48] <jam> Chipaca, my intent was to add an action to test_main, such that you could run "juju deploy test_main; juju run-action ops-tests"
[09:48] <Chipaca> jam: given you can make travis install snaps, and in particular lxd snaps, i was hoping we'd be able to use that to run tests
[09:49] <jam> Chipaca, snap install lxd; snap install --classic juju; juju bootstrap lxd; juju deploy; juju run-action
[09:49] <jam> Chipaca, I don't expect it to be very fast (bootstrap lxd here is a minute or so)
[09:49] <Chipaca> jam: i was thinking of looking at having it as a cron test rather than unit tests unless we got them to be faster than i expect them to be, though
[09:50] <Chipaca> yeah
[09:50] <Chipaca> i mean, up to ~5 minutes is probably fine for PR tests
[09:50] <Chipaca> longer than that and i'd punt them to cron / manual
[09:54] <Chipaca> heh, https://github.com/juju-solutions/charms.reactive/blob/master/.travis.yml
[09:55] <Chipaca> and a job run: https://travis-ci.org/github/juju-solutions/charms.reactive/jobs/675789700
[09:55] <Chipaca> (somebody needs to tweak that travis, but it essentially seems to work?)
[09:55] <Chipaca> anyhoo
[09:58] <jam> Chipaca, "ran for 2min43s" isn't bad
[09:59] <jam> apt install snapd pwgen is 80s of it
[09:59] <Chipaca> jam: "didn't actually *run* run" kinda is tho =)
[09:59] <jam> yeah, I see that now
[09:59] <Chipaca> i mean, juju bootstrap fell over
[09:59] <jam> It is doing the usermod, but not doing the newgrp so the active process knows it is in the group
[10:00] <Chipaca> hopefully it's that and not some weird apparmor-inside-apparmor-inside-apparmor thing
[10:00] <Chipaca> (travis already runs inside lxd in some situations)
[10:00] <Chipaca> (i think it's when you're doing weird arches, and then it's in vms and not containers, but still)
[10:05] <jam> Chipaca, ah right, they recently switched so amd64 can be run in a container
[10:06] <jam> Chipaca, the actual failure is that it can't talk to the lxd socket, but that might be because lxd failed to start?
[10:06] <jam> Chipaca, do you have any quick magic for timing what is taking long in a test run?
[10:07] <jam> I've gotten some stuff to work with cProfile, etc, but it is always a bit clumsier than I would expect
[10:07] <Chipaca> jam: i've monkeypatched the test constructors to track time
[10:07] <Chipaca> jam: otoh pytest i think has things for that?
[10:08] <Chipaca> let me see if i still have the monkey patching thing somewhere
[10:09] <Chipaca> jam: pytest --durations=10 will print the 10 slowest tests
[10:09] <jam> Chipaca, yeah, pytest-profiling sems to get me where I'd like to be
[10:12] <jam>  py.test test/test_storage.py::TestJujuStorage::test_emit_event --profile
[10:12] <jam> gives me a cumulative time spent
[10:13] <Chipaca> jam: --durations gives you something like
[10:13] <Chipaca> 2.24s call     test/test_main.py::TestMainWithNoDispatchButJujuIsDispatchAware::test_multiple_events_handled
[10:13] <Chipaca> 2.21s call     test/test_main.py::TestMainWithNoDispatch::test_setup_event_links
[10:13] <Chipaca> etc
[10:13] <Chipaca> jam: also, pip install pytest-xdist  and then  pytest -n $(nproc)
[10:14] <jam> Chipaca, sure. The issue is that I know one test is running slow, and I'm trying to figure out why
[10:15] <Chipaca> ahh
[10:15] <Chipaca> you want timings _inside_ the test?
[10:15] <Chipaca> that i don't have
[10:15] <jam> Chipaca, yeah. Which --profiling gives me. the issue is that one of my tests with SQLite backend is about 3ms, and with Juju backend it is about 600ms
[10:15] <jam> I'd like to understand why :)
[10:16] <Chipaca> jam: did you set SSH_TO_THUMPERS_BOX=0 ?
[10:17] <Chipaca> 600ms is enough time to do that and more … :)
[10:17] <Chipaca> jam: what happens if you set PYTHONVERBOSE in the environ?
[10:19] <jam> 376ms spent in subprocess.communicate, 376ms spent in wait()
[10:19] <jam> stupid process barriers
[10:20] <jam> Chipaca, PYTHONVERBOSE is a bit... verbose? :)
[10:25] <jam> Chipaca, stripping it down to a single emit() shows it as 200ms, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/XY7dmtXNxv/
[10:26] <Chipaca> jam: is something reading stdin/stdout with it being buffered on a timeout?
[10:26] <jam> Chipaca, it is about 20m-30ms per subprocess invocation, we just do a lot of them for each emit()
[10:27] <jam> Chipaca, $ time python3 -c ''
[10:27] <jam> real    0m0.015s
[10:27] <Chipaca> :-(
[10:27] <Chipaca> jam: try -Sc
[10:28] <jam> goes down to 7ms
[10:28] <Chipaca> (not practical irl but good to know how low we could take it with some environ handholding)
[10:29] <jam> Chipaca, gives "No module named 'yaml'" if I try it in the script
[10:29] <Chipaca> yeah, as i say, not practical :)
[10:29] <Chipaca> it comes up with a very empty pythonpath, for one
[10:30] <jam> Chipaca, it works for the ones that don't need yaml, though
[10:31] <jam> but that only shaves ~10ms off the test time
[10:32] <Chipaca> jam: what are all the calls the reemit does?
[10:33] <jam> so emit() calls _emit(), which does a 'save_snapshot()' for the event, then 'save_notice()' for each observer.
[10:33] <Chipaca> and each of those is a save-set
[10:34] <jam> then _reemit calls 'read all notices', and for each one it will then call load_snapshot and possibly drop_snapshot/drop_notice
[10:34] <Chipaca> jam: right
[10:35] <Chipaca> jam: sounds to me like we want to consider refactoring things to at least save in a batch
[10:35] <Chipaca> but later
[10:35] <Chipaca> i mean, let's not block save-set on this :)
[10:35] <jam> so I think in practice it won't be as bad, 'juju run 'time state-get' is 5ms vs 20ms
[10:35] <Chipaca> but let's not call save-set *done* without looking at it
[10:36] <jam> but it is still a lot slower than interacting with an in-process SQLite file
[10:36]  * Chipaca reaches for his 'shocked pikachu' face again
[10:37] <jam> Chipaca, 😲
[10:37] <Chipaca> :-) that's the on
[10:37] <jam> 😱
[10:37] <Chipaca> nah that's the dog :-p
[10:38] <jam> Chipaca, I do think given how much the Operator framework is based around events, we'll want to be cautious about its performance
[10:38] <Chipaca> (somebody pointed it 'the scream' kinda looks like the guy tried to draw a dog and then somebody said 'oh wow a person screaming' and they went with it)
[10:38] <jam> https://emojipedia.org/face-screaming-in-fear/ I'm not seeing the dog
[10:38] <jam> nor here: https://www.bookdepository.com/Edvard-Munch-Masterpieces-of-Art-Candice-Russell/9781783613564?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base3&utm_source=AE&utm_content=Edvard-Munch-Masterpieces-of-Art&selectCurrency=AED&w=AFCFAU968L892MA8VCPZ&gclid=Cj0KCQjwoaz3BRDnARIsAF1RfLeKR4-ljbzhpZgajGSi2f4h-DLQp_FaX-dDHKqVeiWmSi23iue6HVAaAlf2EALw_wcB
[10:39] <jam> Chipaca, ah, the hands are the ears
[10:39] <Chipaca> there you go :)
[10:39] <Chipaca> once you see it it's easy to flip-flop
[10:40] <jam> if you get rid of the nose and mouth, then I can see the dog nose, but I don't see how they fit on the dog face
[10:40] <jam> not as good a flip/flop as https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/duck-or-rabbit-the-100-year-old-optical-illusion-that-tells-you-how-creative-you-are-a6873106.html
[10:40] <jam> duck bunny
[10:41] <Chipaca> the duck/bunny one is very good (i first saw it on a joke)
[10:42] <Chipaca> anyway. pop.
[10:44] <Chipaca> facundo__: so, wrt charmcraft and secrets, i think a reasonable approach is to use keyring and have the snap ask for the secrets plug; it won't auto-connect, but we can detect the failure in code and fall back to plaintext (or notify the user to manually connect or pass --plaintext?)
[10:45] <Chipaca> the token isn't a general-purpose do-anything token fwiw, which is why storing it plaintext isn't _that_ bad an idea
[10:49] <jam> 'time python3 -c import yaml' is 30ms here.. :(
[10:50] <Chipaca> 0.05user 0.00system 0:00.06elapsed 98%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 11216maxresident)k
[10:51] <jam> 50-60ms ?
[10:52] <Chipaca> yep
[10:52] <Chipaca> and 11MB
[10:54] <facundo__> Muy buenos días a todos!
[10:55] <Chipaca> jam: of course that's slower in great part because my cpu aggressively freqs down; if i pin it hot it drops to 30ms
[10:55] <Chipaca> and if i were to enable 'turbo' mode it'd probably drop another ~5ms
[10:55] <Chipaca> but i don't like my fans being on loud all the time =)
[10:56] <Chipaca> facubatista: muyy buen día su señoría mantantirulirulá
[10:57] <facubatista> Chipaca, supercalifragilísticoespialidosas mañanas!
[11:26] <jam> Chipaca, thinking about Ajduk... It came to light that Operators can trigger an action to be run, which means the Operator charm *should* be able to cause a script to run in the application container
[11:27] <jam> Chipaca, https://discourse.juju.is/t/coordinating-actions-for-a-k8s-operators/3161/2
[11:30] <jam> Chipaca, I added a comment to the doc
[11:31] <facubatista> Chipaca, https://github.com/canonical/charmcraft/issues/42
[11:41] <jam> Chipaca, facubatista : all wired up! turns out we aren't very good at cleaning up after ourselves:
[11:41] <jam> $ juju run --unit uo/2 'state-get'
[11:41] <jam> '#notices#': |
[11:41] <jam>   []
[11:41] <jam> StoredStateData[_stored]: |
[11:41] <jam>   {event_count: 12}
[11:41] <jam> Ubuntu/on/config_changed[7]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:41] <jam>   ...
[11:41] <jam> Ubuntu/on/install[1]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:41] <jam>   ...
[11:41] <jam> Ubuntu/on/leader_elected[4]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:41] <jam>   ...
[11:41] <jam> on/commit[3]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:41] <jam>   ...
[11:41] <jam> on/commit[6]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:41] <jam>   ...
[11:41] <jam> on/commit[9]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:41] <jam>   ...
[11:41] <jam> on/commit[12]: |
[11:41] <jam>   null
[11:42] <jam>   ...
[11:42] <jam> on/pre_commit[2]: |
[11:42] <jam>   null
[11:42] <jam>   ...
[11:42] <jam> on/pre_commit[5]: |
[11:42] <jam>   null
[11:42] <jam>   ...
[11:42] <jam> on/pre_commit[8]: |
[11:42] <jam>   null
[11:42] <jam>   ...
[11:42] <jam> on/pre_commit[11]: |
[11:42] <jam>   null
[11:42] <jam> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/NWZy54VMk4/
[11:42] <jam> (didn't mean to paste the content here)
[11:42] <facubatista> :)
[11:51] <Chipaca> i'll be 10 minutes late for the revue
[11:51] <Chipaca> (small lunch chaos here)
[11:51] <jam> Chipaca, facubatista so the bug is that events that have no handlers are always treated as deferred
[11:52] <facubatista> oh
[11:55]  * facubatista plans the meeting for 10' past normal time
[12:12] <Chipaca> jam: that's a nasty bug :-|
[12:13] <facubatista> Chipaca, https://discourse.juju.is/t/how-to-build-a-charm-using-modern-tools/3246
[12:23] <mup> Issue operator#333 opened: Events with no observers never get deleted <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/333>
[13:07] <Chipaca> what's the generic name for what 'juju deploy' deploys to?
[13:13] <facubatista> Chipaca, the "backing cloud"?
[13:14] <Chipaca> facubatista: hmm
[13:14] <Chipaca> facubatista: in the end i rewrote the sentence to not need it, fwiw
[13:14] <Chipaca> facubatista: https://discourse.juju.is/t/what-files-would-you-expect-charmcraft-build-copies-into-the-charm/3247
[13:14] <Chipaca> stub: mthaddon: ^ if you have opinions on it please speak up :)
[13:38] <mthaddon> ack, will try and take a look soon
[14:14] <mup> PR operator#334 opened: Unobserved events <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/334>
[14:15] <jam> Chipaca, PRs should be up for review
[14:15] <jam> facubatista, review of charmcraft is up
[14:15] <facubatista> jam, thanks
[14:15] <Chipaca> jam: which are the python implementations of state-set that are slow? where can i play with that?
[14:17] <Chipaca> s/set/[sg]et/ fwiw
[14:18] <facubatista> jam, what do you mean with "make it contextual"?
[14:19] <Chipaca> facubatista: pass it around either explicitly or implicity, i think
[14:23] <facubatista> it could be done
[14:24] <facubatista> I like it how it's now, though, as it should be an omnipresent object, the only interaction with the module, etc
[15:08] <jam> Chipaca, https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/323/files#diff-54d96dff01765335f1f08f6254aa0de6R197-R250 is the python backend
[15:08] <mup> PR #323: 317 state get <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/323>
[15:08] <jam> facubatista, yeah, the idea was 'is it worth passing one around' rather than being used as a process global
[15:14] <Chipaca> heh, silly me was looking for #! :)
[15:40] <jam> Chipaca, yeah, the #! is fixed to be bash by fake_script
[16:03] <mup> PR operator#335 opened: make tests 15% faster <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/335>
[16:04] <Chipaca> :-D
[16:33] <Chipaca> tomorrow is RTD DAY \o/
[16:57] <Chipaca> ok, i think i'm at eod, mostly
[16:58] <Chipaca> facubatista: i'm still hoping to finish the review on charmcraft#33 tonight though
[16:58] <mup> PR charmcraft#33: Refactored all the message sending to the user, including storing everything in a file <Created by facundobatista> <https://github.com/canonical/charmcraft/pull/33>
[16:58] <Chipaca> but that'll depend on external factors :)
[17:00] <facubatista> Chipaca, tomorrow is fine, too
[20:25] <mup> PR operator#335 closed: make tests 15% faster <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/335>


[09:31] <LyzardKing> I need help with ubuntu-sdk. When I run the tutorial  I get errors regarding like file:///usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt5/qml/Ubuntu/Components/Toolbar.qml:112: TypeError: Cannot read property 'visible' of null
[09:31] <LyzardKing> and other similar ones
[09:35] <LyzardKing> I really need help and launchpad isn't helping much this time
[09:43] <Mirv> news flash: Qt Creator is being updated to RC1 with a new version of Ubuntu plugin. updates via SDK PPA in about 20-30mins.
[10:09] <qwertzui11> Mirv: great! :)
[18:31] <aquarius> gah, who does design consultancy when ckpringle isn't around? :)


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[01:07] <fisch246> i sent out the email
[01:15] <fisch246> #tclug is a Twin Cities LUG team :D
[03:00] <klynch> hey all.
[03:01] <fisch246> hey
[03:03] <klynch> fisch246: Having a better night?
[03:03] <fisch246> better?
[03:03] <klynch> fisch246: Amensia work out well?
[03:04] <fisch246> ah
[03:04] <fisch246> nah
[03:04] <fisch246> this fall is going to be hella busy for me...
[03:05] <klynch> fisch246: What you taking in the fall?
[03:05] <fisch246> actually it's not about what i'm taking
[03:06] <fisch246> i'm setting up a LUG at my new school
[03:06] <klynch> fisch246: which school is that?
[03:06] <fisch246> i'm gonna attempt to get it off the ground, then make it community run
[03:07] <fisch246> NHCC
[03:07] <fisch246> north hennipen
[03:07] <klynch> nice maybe I will transfer there. They have a program I was looking at.
[03:08] <klynch> thats sounds like a good idea would love to be apart of a LUG.
[03:08] <fisch246> sure thing :)
[03:08] <fisch246> it's not going to follow Ubuntu or their policies btw...
[03:09] <fisch246> i'll be leader until everyone is motivated, and knows each other... then i'll leave it to everyone to do their part
[03:09] <klynch> nice
[03:09] <klynch> so multi-distro
[03:10] <fisch246> yes
[03:10] <klynch> cool
[03:10] <fisch246> no rules, except school policy
[03:11] <klynch> I like a variety myself.
[03:11] <fisch246> well me and the Ubuntu community has slowly been parting ways...
[03:12] <fisch246> the community basically ignores Linux entirely...
[03:12] <fisch246> especially the ideals that follow
[03:13] <fisch246> i
[03:13] <fisch246> i've heard horror stories >.>
[03:14] <klynch> do you mean ignores linux outside of ubuntu? or altogether
[03:15] <fisch246> no not at all
[03:15] <fisch246> never had that happen
[03:16] <fisch246> they love linux... but Linux people don't like Ubuntu community...
[03:17] <klynch> oh i see
[03:17] <fisch246> not very friendly people, and not very um...
[03:17] <fisch246> well like i said... ideals
[03:17] <fisch246> they don't follow them
[03:17] <fisch246> Linux people like Ubuntu, just not the people behind it
[03:18] <fisch246> in fact i've only had people from this channel want to come to the party
[03:18] <fisch246> i go to other channels and they're like "cool install fest", then i tell them it's for the LoCo team, and i get a no...
[03:19] <fisch246> generally because of mister Yarusso >.>
[03:19] <fisch246> apparently he broke some rules and pissed some people in the TC LUG group
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> Say what now?
[03:20] <fisch246> why hello
[03:21] <fisch246> tonyyarusso: "freenode debacle"
[03:21] <klynch> Well hopefully it is fun
[03:21] <fisch246> i won't say more
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> Perhaps you should say more, since I have no idea what you mean.
[03:21] <fisch246> logging with out notification..
[03:22] <tonyyarusso> Oh, that guy.  Heh.
[03:22] <fisch246> not really a small deal >.>
[03:22] <tonyyarusso> Considering I'm only aware of a grand total of one person who was involved in that, I'd have to disagree.
[03:22] <fisch246> well i haven't had any problems with you as of yet
[03:23] <klynch> I am pretty sure I am lost
[03:23] <fisch246> the only thing i'd have to say i'm disappointed about is how unmotivated our LoCo team is D:
[03:23] <fisch246> which should explain my message
[03:24] <tonyyarusso> klynch: See the thing in the /topic that says "This channel has logs available on http://irclogs.ubuntu-minnesota.org/"?  That didn't used to be there, and one of the people who gets upset about that wandered in here one day.
[03:24] <tonyyarusso> Motivating is all done by users - so far we've only had maybe four people ever take initiative on anything, with much prodding.
[03:25] <fisch246> well i think it takes only 1 motivated person to motivate in entire group...
[03:25] <klynch> so he was mad about loggin?
[03:25] <fisch246> klynch: that people weren't told about the logging
[03:26] <fisch246> tonyyarusso: look at the party i put together... i got motivated, and motivated a ton of people
[03:26] <klynch> jus sounds like a missunderstanding
[03:26]  * tonyyarusso notes that the Freenode web site *still* does not reflect logs supposedly requiring notification
[03:26]  * fisch246 points to the MOTD
[03:27] <tonyyarusso> klynch (also fisch246): There's a group of users that have been making various stinks about channel logging policies for probably 3 years now - it's not at all limited to this individual or this channel, but they're all related.
[03:28] <klynch> I am a soldier.   The policy is unclear at best.
[03:28] <tonyyarusso> !ohmy
[03:29] <klynch> I got a bot sicked on me
[03:29] <fisch246> sorry about that got dropped
[03:29] <fisch246> i saw the bot message though
[03:29] <fisch246> i'd have to disagree with the bot though >.>
[03:29] <klynch> I am only passionate about a few things.
[03:30] <fisch246> especially with ops
[03:30] <fisch246> spend a day in #ubuntu-offtopic, and you'll see an op trolling someone...
[03:31] <klynch> funny
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> Note:  Usually if ops are picking on someone in -offtopic, the victim is another op.  :P
[03:31] <fisch246> meh maybe...
[03:32] <klynch> sounds a bit like cannibalism
[03:32] <fisch246> the rules drive me crazy though
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> If it's not, then you can raise it with #ubuntu-ops.  But really, most of that is friendly, between long-time users of the channel.
[03:32] <fisch246> makes everyone cranky >.>
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> klynch: It used to be weirder :P
[03:33] <fisch246> tonyyarusso: yea i've reported a few ops before...
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> -ot back in the day was basically just where #ubuntu ops hung out and kicked each other to blow off steam :)
[03:33] <fisch246> XD
[03:33] <fisch246> a perfect example... ##linux has 2 rules... and yet everyone's nicer in there...
[03:34] <fisch246> no one goes "no we won't help you here"
[03:34] <tonyyarusso> Uh, ##linux is a support channel.
[03:34] <fisch246> support/offtopic
[03:34] <fisch246> depends
[03:34] <fisch246> being as there is only 2 rules, it swaps between
[03:35] <tonyyarusso> ##linux is also quite a bit smaller than #ubuntu.
[03:36] <fisch246> i mean i like Ubuntu...
[03:36] <fisch246> i think it's the best linux distro
[03:36] <fisch246> better than Arch...
[03:36] <fisch246> and that's saying something
[03:36] <fisch246> even better than Debian
[03:36] <fisch246> i just think the community can take a chill pill >.>
[03:38] <fisch246> tonyyarusso: mind responding to my message though
[03:38] <fisch246> on here or in PM
[03:38] <fisch246> if you're free that is
[03:38] <fisch246> i know you have taxes
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> In here is probably more useful actually, as others may have similar questions:
[03:39] <fisch246> mmk
[03:40] <fisch246> so anyway i can become co-driver?
[03:40] <fisch246> wow sorry...
[03:41] <fisch246> let me rephrase that
[03:41] <fisch246> how can i become co-driver?
[03:42] <tonyyarusso> In short, the only things my "position" entails are administrative.  The title is actually Team Contact, not Leader, or driver, or boss, or anything like that.  It's not necessary for me to approve of things before they happen, and people should be strongly encouraged to take charge of any projects they think would be cool to work on.  The main thing having an individual identified is useful for is so there's someone that others ...
[03:42] <tonyyarusso> ... can contact regarding LoCo stuff, both for Minnesotans to initially get info, but more so for other parts of the Ubuntu community if they needed to know something about our LoCo (basically, subscribing to a mailing list about loco stuffs and being who the IRC team has on file).  So, has for your question, you're already a driver - you organized an event, which is awesome.  And that's pretty much all there is to it.  :)
[03:44] <fisch246> well starting next fall...
[03:44] <tonyyarusso> On a related note, I still have a dream of having individuals identified as regional organizers of sorts, to help delegate some of the prodding.  :P
[03:44] <fisch246> i'm going to be running several LUGs...
[03:44] <tonyyarusso> Several?
[03:44] <fisch246> yes...
[03:44] <tonyyarusso> hehe, have fun :P
[03:45] <fisch246> i was hoping on helping you run this one...
[03:45] <fisch246> either that... or even better... have no leader >.>
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> By all means - there's just no "process" for doing so.
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> and there is no leader - only a contact.
[03:45] <fisch246> yet you're op to this channel?
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> yeah
[03:46] <fisch246> hm... >.>
[03:46] <tonyyarusso> Only actually used that like once or twice for anything besides topic changes though.
[03:46] <tonyyarusso> (Pretty quiet in here compared to #ubuntu :) )
[03:46] <fisch246> well you log as well...
[03:47] <tonyyarusso> Actually lubotu1 does the logging.
[03:47] <fisch246> >.<
[03:47] <tonyyarusso> or, no.  ubuntulo1_ rather.
[03:47] <sparklehistory> fisch246: What's your point?
[03:47] <tonyyarusso> (All Ubuntu channels except -offtopic are logged.)
[03:47] <fisch246> sparklehistory: leaders push people away
[03:47] <fisch246> in the linux world that is
[03:48] <fisch246> what i plan to do with the LUG at my school is be leader for like a month, for people to get to know each other and get motivated... then i'll step down and have it be community based...
[03:48] <fisch246> allowing it to turn into whatever it wants
[03:49] <tonyyarusso> Ah, see, that won't work here.  Being part of the broader Ubuntu community precludes the "whatever it wants" approach.
[03:49] <fisch246> kinda thinking maybe i will never be leader...
[03:49] <sparklehistory> fisch246: Sounds to me like a recipe for having it turn into an unproductive group that's not really worth anyone's time.
[03:49] <fisch246> sparklehistory: how so?
[03:50] <fisch246> kinda how this LoCo team is apparently run...
[03:50] <fisch246> i came in and motivated people to get together.. the system works
[03:50] <tonyyarusso> So what's the problem?
[03:50] <fisch246> any other than that... you're breaking off from Linux ideals...
[03:51] <tonyyarusso> What do you think "Linux ideals" are?
[03:51] <fisch246> community
[03:51] <fisch246> simply said
[03:51] <tonyyarusso> Uh, more specifically.
[03:51] <tonyyarusso> What is it that you think is broken?
[03:51] <fisch246> no one tells anyone how or what to do with there time
[03:52] <fisch246> take wireshark for example
[03:52] <fisch246> a tool for managing packets on your network
[03:52] <fisch246> yet the developer allows you to do what you want with it
[03:52] <fisch246> like sniffing packets on someone's network if you wanted to
[03:52] <tonyyarusso> And?
[03:52] <fisch246> Ubuntu community is complete opposite of that
[03:53] <tonyyarusso> How so?
[03:53] <fisch246> down on piracy, or anything illegal
[03:53] <tonyyarusso> You can use Ubuntu for whatever you want.
[03:53] <fisch246> tonyyarusso: yes... that's the Ubuntu... why i love it so much... but the community views things differently
[03:53] <tonyyarusso> The Freenode network disallows anything pertaining to illegal activity - that's beyond even Ubuntu.
[03:54] <fisch246> well that's bull...
[03:54] <tonyyarusso> Complain to the Parliament of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland then?
[03:55] <fisch246> Linux is suppose to exist outside of politics v,v
[03:55] <fisch246> v.v*
[03:55] <tonyyarusso> Criminal activity is not a "Linux ideal".
[03:55] <fisch246> no... but to be able to do them, and talk about them is...
[03:55] <fisch246> the freedom to do so i mean
[03:55] <tonyyarusso> Enforcement of the GPL at its very core requires adherence to copyright law.
[03:56] <tonyyarusso> Free software is not and has never been a culture of anarchy or unlawfulness - I'm not sure where you got that impression.
[03:56] <fisch246> yes... but it's a little different than normal copyright law
[03:56] <fisch246> i can do what i want with it... as long as i don't sell it
[03:56] <tonyyarusso> Normal copyright law is the basis for how the GPL works.
[03:57] <tonyyarusso> And you CAN sell GPL software.
[03:57] <fisch246> Gnu Public License..
[03:57] <tonyyarusso> And nothing in the GPL gives you permission to do illegal things with the software - it merely does not restrict you from doing legal things.
[03:57] <tonyyarusso> GNU General Public License actually, but close enough ;)
[03:58] <fisch246> well if you want to be specific.. there's 2 of them...
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> v2 if we're talking about the Linux kernel.
[03:59] <fisch246> then which license agreement was it that doesn't allow you to sell?
[03:59] <tonyyarusso> None of them.  Being able to sell the software is one of the requirements for being approved as an open license.
[03:59] <fisch246> as far as i know... CC allows you to do anything... while GPL allows you to do anything, as long as you don't get sell it...
[03:59] <tonyyarusso> Perhaps you're thinking of a Microsoft EULA?  :P
[03:59] <fisch246> no >.<
[03:59] <fisch246> there was a court case about it
[03:59] <tonyyarusso> "CC" is not a license - there are many, many CC licenses.
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> And no, GPL does not allow you to "do anything".
[04:00]  * fisch246 remembers why he prefers CC
[04:01] <tonyyarusso> Again, CC is an entire class of licenses, with a wide variety of things they each allow and exclude.
[04:01] <fisch246> yea but CC allows me to say, do what ever you want with my things
[04:01] <tonyyarusso> CC-BY?  CC-BY-SA?  CC-BY-ND?  CC-BY-SA-NC?  Unported?  USA?  Europe?  etc.
[04:02] <tonyyarusso> The only CC license that allows you to do whatever you want is CC0.
[04:02] <tonyyarusso> CC-BY lets you do almost anything, provided you properly attributed the original source.
[04:02] <fisch246> like DBR... i can download, remix, and even sell his music if i wanted to...
[04:03] <fisch246> i can torrent his music
[04:03] <tonyyarusso> CC-BY-SA lets you do those things, provided you release your derivative works under the same license.  etc.
[04:03] <fisch246> i am actually legally hosting a torrent of his music
[04:03] <tonyyarusso> Okay, so this DBR person's work is not under an -NC class of CC license then (non-commercial).
[04:04] <fisch246> i think it's BY
[04:04] <tonyyarusso> Seems likely.
[04:04] <fisch246> i can use his stuff in a movie if i wanted to, but i'd have to say it was him
[04:04] <fisch246> DBR is run by Jono Bacon btw
[04:05] <tonyyarusso> But you can't blast his work around the neighborhood at midnight, disturbing your neighbors.
[04:05] <fisch246> whom if you don't know.. you should leave this room immediately >.>
[04:05] <fisch246> or never go on Ubuntu trivia
[04:05] <tonyyarusso> Mostly the latter :P
[04:05] <fisch246> yes please don't leave the room D:
[04:06]  * tonyyarusso checks #ubuntu-trivia score
[04:06] <tonyyarusso> Huh, must know him.  ;)
[04:06] <fisch246> that really a channel?
[04:06] <tonyyarusso> Yes, yes it is.
[04:06] <fisch246> XD
[04:07] <tonyyarusso> http://ryanak.ca/trivia.html
[04:08] <fisch246> haha bazhang...
[04:08] <fisch246> he can be an ass sometimes...
[04:08] <fisch246> but most of the time he's just funny
[04:11] <fisch246> i really hate that i can't swear on -ot
[04:12] <fisch246> i suppose then you don't get those teenagers who think swearing is cool, so they say the f-word every sentence >.<
[04:12] <tonyyarusso> Pretty much.
[04:43] <fisch246> :D
[04:43] <fisch246> LUG is coming off the ground
[04:43] <fisch246> next step... website :D
[04:44] <fisch246> klynch: #mnlug
[04:58] <Guest396> hi all!
[04:59] <fisch246> hello
[05:11] <klynch> I feel so left out whenever I leave here. IT seems there is always an interesting message going on.
[05:11] <fisch246> haha
[05:11] <fisch246> did you see my message?
[05:12] <fisch246> about the channel
[05:12] <klynch> yeah is that a cool channel
[05:12] <fisch246> it's my channel
[05:12] <fisch246> for MNSCU LUG :)
[05:12] <klynch> nice
[05:12] <fisch246> Minnesota Schools and Universities Linux User Group
[05:13] <fisch246> and also the state of MN
[06:32]  * Takyoji scratches his chinny-chin-chin.
[06:32] <Takyoji> I wonder what graphics card brand/series would be best for Linux use
[06:32] <Takyoji> I currently have NVIDIA
[06:33] <fisch246> and... website is now up :3
[06:33] <Takyoji> URL?
[06:33] <fisch246> https://sites.google.com/site/mn4linux/
[06:34] <fisch246> still under construction for the most part, but it's a start
[06:39] <fisch246> what do you think?
[06:53] <fisch246> um... ok then
[06:56] <fisch246> damn skype >.<
[23:27] <sundjinnkari> Hello all.
[23:30] <tonyyarusso> sundjinnkari: Hi.  I'd love to chat, but am just heading out.  Back later!  :)
[23:31] <fisch246> i just got home
[23:31] <fisch246> so i'm here
[23:31] <sundjinnkari> Hello there.
[23:32] <sundjinnkari> Im really just looking around for places to chat about ubuntu
[23:32] <sundjinnkari> if this is not the place tell me and ill look elsewhere.
[23:32] <sundjinnkari> Im kinda new to the IRC thing
[23:32] <fisch246> sundjinnkari: here is fine... consider going to #ubuntu-offtopic :) this channel is mostly dead
[23:32] <sundjinnkari> alright
[23:34] <klynch> I am alive
[23:35] <fisch246> #mnlug is also alive >.>


[02:09] <Cheri703> Just realized I may have a conflict for the meeting on wednesday, but will do my best to attend :)
[08:06] <AlanBell> http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/events/devcsi/accessibility_hackdays/programme/index.html
[08:07] <AlanBell> I am not going to that, but thought it might be interesting


[08:04] <ExeciN> I tried skipping the TUI installer by providing a cloud-init configuration in the kernel arguments like so 'autoinstall ds=nocloud-net;s=https://some.host/path/to/cloud-init/config.yaml' but the TUI installer still shows up. Is there a way to automatically install ubuntu server without making a custom iso?
[10:47] <ravage> ExeciN, see https://www.molnar-peter.hu/en/ubuntu-jammy-netinstall-pxe.html
[12:50] <ExeciN> can't I just use the vanilla live iso and modify the kernel command?
[15:59] <foo> I deleted a 8GB file, system ran out of space
[15:59] <foo> I don't see it freeing up space
[16:00] <foo> Is there something further I need to do? Dumb mistake.
[16:02] <sdeziel> foo: `lsof | grep deleted` should tell you if a process has kept the file open preventing from being freed from the filesystem
[16:05] <foo> sdeziel: thank you!
[16:05] <foo> sdeziel: I did see a few processes, killed a couple, they seem to be "coming back" under different pids.
[16:05] <sdeziel> foo: you are welcome
[16:05] <foo> Which seems odd, because I feel like if I kill it it should stop and "reset"
[16:06] <foo> sdeziel: there we go, I killed the parent process and I think that did it.


[01:50] <pleia2> meeting in 10 minutes :)
[02:00] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[02:00] <darthrobot> Meeting started Mon Jun 17 02:00:36 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[02:00] <darthrobot> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[02:00] <pleia2> ok, who all is here for the meeting? :)
[02:01] <pleia2> #agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/13June16
[02:01] <darthrobot> Title: [CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/13June16 - Ubuntu Wiki]
[02:01] <pleia2> nothing really on the agenda either
[02:03] <eps> Well, we could wish a happy Father's Day to sabdfl ... he is, after all, Ubuntu's "father."
[02:03] <pleia2> looking at our events calendar it looks pretty sparse until july: http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california/events/
[02:03] <darthrobot> Title: [Ubuntu California Events List | Ubuntu LoCo Team Portal]
[02:03] <pleia2> hehe
[02:04] <pleia2> yes, happy father's day sabdfl
[02:09] <pleia2> anyone else have any announcements, comments, etc?
[02:11] <pleia2> eps: did you want to mention any upcoming things?
[02:12] <eps> Not really. ;-)
[02:12] <pleia2> alright, I think we just wrap this up then
[02:12] <pleia2> thanks for coming, eps! :)
[02:12] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[02:12] <darthrobot> Meeting ended Mon Jun 17 02:12:22 2013 UTC.
[02:12] <darthrobot> Minutes:        http://ihas.5cat.com/~darthrobot/ubuntu-us-ca/2013/ubuntu-us-ca.2013-06-17-02.00.moin.txt
[12:47] <GNUdru> thought: if the dictator is the "father of Ubuntu" then Richard Stallman is perhaps great grandfather and Linus Torvalds the father. :-)
[12:54] <GNUdru> oops i mean Torvalds the grandfather.
[12:58] <GNUdru> so if we say "happy father's day" to the dictator (as suggested by eps in the meeting last night), we should also to Stallman and Torvalds
[20:30] <raevol> anyone else having an issue with raring where the display will just lock up for about 15 seconds? mouse still moves but nothing else works
[20:31] <pleia2> nope
[20:44] <raevol> pleia2: you're on xfce though right? i wonder if it's a unity thing
[20:45] <raevol> pleia2: also are you running conky by chance? i think it might be a conky issue
[20:46] <pleia2> raevol: that kind of thing is more often a graphics driver problem (which may manifest itself when running a 3d desktop like unity)
[20:46] <pleia2> unity itself is tested like crasy, and there would be riots in the street if this was common ;)
[20:46] <pleia2> crazy too
[20:47] <raevol> pleia2: yea that's what i am thinking too, i think it's an interaction between conky and X somehow, i added a line to my conkyrc and it fixed conky turning black after the lockup
[20:47] <pleia2> and no, have never used conky
[20:49] <raevol> hmm
[20:59] <MarkDude> pleia2, we have a Fedora dude up from LATAM for a BAMF event. We were talking- your name came up. He wanted to say thanks- he has been learning bitleBee
[20:59] <MarkDude> He likes your blog :)
[20:59] <pleia2> MarkDude: yay :) glad he found my bitlbee stuff useful (gosh, I need to update my web quickstart)
[21:02] <MarkDude> Yep, he heard Princess Leia and wondered why Bitlbee was there. He was at Scale- Ruben irc biker
[21:02] <MarkDude> Yay for the Linux Penguin family :D
[21:35] <bkerensa> mmm
[21:55] <MarkDude> bkerensa, ok he is FLOSS person - his choice of Distro is secondary :D


[02:45] <tsimonq2[m]> ouchhhhh nice 😒
[02:45] <tsimonq2> meh just throw it at the archive :P
[17:16] -Ubottu[m]:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Desktop amd64 [Jammy 22.04.4] has been updated (20240509)
[19:09] <AaronRainbolt> OK so I think it's reasonable that Calamares checks for Internet access during installation of Lubuntu/Kubuntu/Ubuntu Unity. But is it really a good idea during first-time OEM setup when the user may not have any way of connecting in the first place?
[19:09] <AaronRainbolt> I'm thinking of removing the Internet check from `<flavor>/oem/modules/welcome.conf` and SRU-ing it into Noble so it's fixed for 24.04.1.
[19:14] <wxl[m]> What did Ubiquity used to do?
[19:17] <arraybolt3> Ubiquity has never griped about Internet being missing AFAIK.
[19:18] <arraybolt3> It gave you an option to connect during install time if you wanted, but otherwise wasn't pushy about it. Calamares is pushy about it, but can work without it.
[19:18] <wxl[m]> I'd verify that and follow suit
[19:18] <arraybolt3> Calamares' feature set doesn't really let us do that.
[19:19] <wxl[m]> For what it's worth, there's nothing that would be improved by having an Internet connection, right?
[19:19] <arraybolt3> It's either "don't gripe about Internet at all", or "gripe loudly".
[19:19] <arraybolt3> There is quite a bit that is improved by having an Internet connection for the installation part of things.
[19:19] <arraybolt3> But for the OEM setup part, it's pretty useless.
[19:19] <arraybolt3> er, the first time user setup - you know what I mean
[19:19] <wxl[m]> Right, that's what I meant
[19:20] <wxl[m]> Yeah, probably best to turn it off. Maybe run it by flavors or at least Kubuntu/Unity and see if they're in agreement, but it seems like what you're suggesting makes sense
[19:20] <wxl[m]> However it might be a tough go to get that SRU'd
[19:21] <AaronRainbolt> I doubt it, it's a cosmetic change only.
[19:22] <wxl[m]> Well my impression was always more that SRUs were only really accepted when they made a significant improvement to the experience/function, i.e. cosmetic changes would generally be ignored
[19:24] <arraybolt3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates specifically that "Bugs which do not fit under above categories, but (1) have an obviously safe patch and (2) affect an application rather than critical infrastructure packages (like X.org or the kernel)." can be fixed via SRU.
[19:24] <arraybolt3> i.e., if it's a small thing but the fix is obviously safe and the app is not hyper-critical, it's doable
[19:25] <arraybolt3> this isn't really a small thing, almost every single user who gets an OEM installation of klubuntunity is going to see a warning message about Internet when they first turn on their box.
[19:26] <wxl[m]> seems like you're on the right track then :)
[19:27] <arraybolt3> er, klünitybuntu, is how vorlon put it :)
[19:27] <wxl[m]> klubuntunity ("cloo-bundt-u-ne-tee") needs to be a thing we use more officially
[19:27] <arraybolt3> complete with umlaut above the 'u'
[19:27] <wxl[m]> indeed
[19:28] <wxl[m]> of course then it's more like "cloe" :)
 "Well my impression was always..." <- you have the release manager hat for stable, just say it's a feature goal 😛
[22:13] <tsimonq2[m]> that's how we got cala SRUs through in the past
[22:13] <tsimonq2[m]> either way ... this is a bug


[03:13] <robert_ancell> what's a good command to use the output of mirscreencast and produce a video file with reasonable compression?
[03:15] <RAOF> robert_ancell: Let me hunt down the email...
[03:15] <robert_ancell> RAOF, I figured this must have been recorded somewhere but my google-fu is not finding it
[03:17] <RAOF> mencoder -demuxer rawvideo -rawvideo fps=60:w=1920:h=1200:format=bgra /tmp/foo -ovc lavc -lavcopts vcodec=ffv1 -o all.avi
[03:17] <RAOF> Is one option.
[03:17] <RAOF> I don't think we have documented this anywhere, though.
[03:17] <RAOF> MPs welcome :)
[03:17] <RAOF> It'd be reasonably easy to translate that into a gstreamer pipeline that'd do the right thing, too.
[03:19] <robert_ancell> I should be able to convert that to a pipe right? In particular I'm running out of disk space too fast
[03:20] <RAOF> I *think* so?
[03:22] <RAOF> You certainly would be able to with gstreamer and fdsrc
[03:22] <RAOF> Urgh. How can our unittests fail in trunk?
[03:23] <robert_ancell>  mirscreencast -m /run/lightdm-mir-0 --stdout | mencoder -demuxer rawvideo -rawvideo fps=60:w=1920:h=1200:format=bgra - -ovc lavc -lavcopts vcodec=ffv1 -o $1
[03:23] <robert_ancell> I think that should do it
[03:23] <RAOF> Yeah, seems reasonable.
[03:23] <robert_ancell> except I need to adjust the size I guess..
[03:23] <RAOF> And probably select a different vcodec; that'll give you lossless compression, which will be pretty good for a screencast but you may want more.
[03:24] <robert_ancell> It's probably better to encode fast and then re-encode when I'm done
[03:25] <RAOF> Yeah, not a bad plan.
[03:27] <RAOF> Intriguing. Tests fail when built with clang, pass with gcc. I guess I'll chalk this up to a compiler bug unless it persists.
[03:27] <robert_ancell> [ffv1 @ 0x7f8e54797b00]Error getting output packet.
[03:27] <robert_ancell> Muxer frame buffer cannot allocate memory!
[03:27] <robert_ancell> hmm
[03:34] <RAOF> Heh. g++'s error handling for “you missed a > on a template argument, doofus” remains gloriously opaque.
[03:37] <RAOF> Ok. Sped up our tests by a factor of 10, and they almost all still pass.
[03:42] <robert_ancell> Anyone know why Mir says it's outputting 60fps by screencast but it only appears to be 15fps?
[03:48] <RAOF> Possibly too slow to write?
[03:50] <robert_ancell> RAOF, I don't think so - it seems to generate an mp4 at 4x speed. If I set it to 15 it works fine
[03:52]  * RAOF makes the magic incantations which enable non-glacial speed on battery.
[09:46] <alan_g> alf_: do you know why a Mir CI build tries to install libunity-mir1 etc.? https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/mir-mediumtests-runner-mako/1795/console
[09:46] <alf_> alan_g: looking
[09:49] <alf_> alan_g: from what I understand, libunity-mir1 is already installed as part of the flashed image
[09:50] <alan_g> Oops!
[09:50] <alan_g> I'll pop over to ci-eng...
[10:26] <alan_g> CI he say: "/usr/include/android/system/graphics.h:269:5: error: 'size_t' does not name a type" ... I wonder if the android headers have been changed?
[14:26] <dandrader> dednick, I guess your platform-api branches fixes those issues? http://paste.ubuntu.com/7663936/
[14:27] <dednick> dandrader: yup
[15:45] <alan_g> greyback: does this test capture our current orientation requirements? http://paste.ubuntu.com/7664275/
[15:48] <dandrader> alan_g, btw, gotta define mir_orienation_* values
[15:49] <dandrader> alan_g, is it an angle in degrees, counter-clockwise?
[15:50] <dandrader> alan_g, and will the app be able to query the value and not just receive events about it?
[15:50] <alan_g> dandrader: mir_toolkit/common.h line 120
[15:51] <alan_g> dandrader: what I took from the discussion was the ability to send the events
[15:51] <alan_g> but I can add requirements...
[15:51] <dandrader> alan_g, yes. gotta have a line there explaining what those enum values mean
[15:52] <dandrader> documentation
[15:54] <greyback> alan_g: looks good yes
[15:54] <alan_g> dandrader: I only know what I see there. ;)
[15:55] <alan_g> greyback: do we need dandrader's suggestion of the client querying the orientation of a surface too?
[15:57] <greyback> alan_g: hmm, ideally yes a surface should be created with an orientation, or have a getter to read the orientation when it wants to.
[15:59]  * alan_g wonders if orientation should be a surface creation parameter?
[19:22] <racarr_> kgunn: dandrader: So I guess if by monday we havent come to an agreement re: input sender (gives tomorrow morning and friday)
[19:22] <racarr_> we can do inputdispatcher
[19:23] <racarr_> ugh 5 minutes until the pizza place opens but I cant wait ANY LONGER
[19:23] <racarr_> ...
[19:23] <racarr_> lol
[19:23] <kgunn> yeah...i think if you threaten alan with that, he'll suddenly love input sender :)
[19:24] <racarr_> haha
[19:25] <racarr_> using InputDispatcher isnt that bad
[19:25] <dandrader> racarr_, by inputdispatcher you mean exposing the whole android-input and letting us replace android::InputDispatcher
[19:25] <racarr_> Yes.
[19:25] <dandrader> ok. I will have to dust off the patch I had for it :)
[19:25] <racarr_> :) well maybe input sender will magically land in the morning lol, we will see
[19:26] <racarr_> I'm sure InputDispatcher hasnt changed though
[19:26] <racarr_> or android-input much at all
[19:26] <racarr_> which is one of the reasons I think publishing android-input in a "privatized" library isn't that bad
[19:26] <dandrader> on the other hand. it will quite a bit of work to go back to that previous approach in qtmir....
[19:26] <racarr_> its additional ABI, but practically we dont change it rapidly at all.
[19:27] <racarr_> Oh really ? :(
[19:27] <racarr_> I imagined it would be almost plug/play InputSender->InputDispatcher-to-channel
[19:37] <AlbertA> racarr_: ummm, do we really want to do that?
[19:38] <AlbertA> racarr_: don't we want to have the option to drop the android stuff completely at some point
[19:50] <racarr_> AlbertA: it would be a privatized interface to unity-mir
[19:51] <racarr_> if we arent able to land input-sender quick enough
[19:51] <AlbertA> racarr_: ummm didn't we just basically said no to privatized stuff even for our own examples?
[19:52] <racarr_> Sure but 3 options
[19:52] <racarr_> 1. Land input sender or something comparable
[19:52] <racarr_> 2. Expose android-input for unity-mir
[19:52] <racarr_> 3. Don't ship qt compositor
[19:52] <racarr_> ;)
[19:53] <AlbertA> is there something really wrong with input sender? I haven't reviewed it yet
[19:54] <racarr_> lol im not sure yet. my first review it just seemed kind of messy, but mostly as a consequence of the android bits....going to look more tomorrow
[19:54] <racarr_> but there is some discussion between alf/alan_g about it too and
[19:55] <racarr_> alan_g seems pessimistic about it.
[19:55] <racarr_> s/tomorrow/this afternoon/
[19:57] <AlbertA> racarr_: oh I see there's a dependency chain there
[19:57] <AlbertA> racarr_: it depends on another 2 mps
[19:57] <racarr_> that too yes
[19:58] <AlbertA> I think I see the problem now
[19:58] <AlbertA> It's a massive diff overall
[19:58] <AlbertA> :)
[19:59] <racarr_> aha yes that is a concern point
[22:18] <racarr_> i feel like im so close
[22:18] <racarr_> to never again having to remember that the cursor
[22:18] <racarr_> exists
[22:18] <racarr_> soon we will do everything that xcursor does and the cursor will just be another renderable and it can fade in to memory lol
[22:20] <racarr_> hmm. if the XCursorLoader fails to load any cursors do you think we should fall back to the builtin cursor
[22:20] <racarr_> kind of weird to put logic in the server configuration
[22:20] <racarr_> like that
[22:21] <racarr_> I mean...there could be a...composite object that does that too...
[22:21] <racarr_> or the XCursorLoader could have a builtin cursor (that seems the weirdest...)
[22:49] <racarr_> seems like its still possible to hose the system if you crash the server at the right place in startup
[22:49] <racarr_> cant even recover from ssh...
[22:55] <kdub_> robert_ancell, cool, gtk!
[23:02] <racarr_> Yeah!
[23:51] <racarr_> ok coming back in a bit to finish off last bit of cursor loader and propose that to get one more thing off my mind lol and then work on groking input sender
[23:51] <racarr_> but for now away for a while


[00:01] <mathomastech> Blazeix: Sure. basically I have some files I committed from a previous install. But my current setup just has the actual files, and isn't connected to the github repository. Is there a way to reconnect and commit all my changes. My github is about 2 months out of date so I don't want to lose my current stuff.
[00:01] <mathomastech> https://github.com/mathomastech/personal-web
[00:06] <Blazeix> if you've cloned a repo and added github as a remote ('connected it to the github repo'), it shouldn't matter if you've reinstalled the OS, as long as you didn't touch the repo directory
[00:06] <Blazeix> it stores all the configuration information in a ".git" directory inside your repo
[00:07] <Blazeix> hopefully i'm understanding your situation correctly
[00:08] <Blazeix> if you run 'git remote' do you get any output?
[00:08] <mathomastech> Its synced over to my computer through dropbox. So I didn't clone it from github.  Let me try get remove
[00:08] <mathomastech> remote*
[00:09] <mathomastech> get remote returns origin
[00:10] <Blazeix> ok, i've never dealt with using dropbox to sync git repos, seems a bit odd. you should be all set up. does "git remote show origin" return info about your github repo?
[00:11] <Blazeix> if so, you should just be able to push your commits to github
[00:15] <mathomastech> Alright. I will try that.
[00:23] <mathomastech> Yep, worked great. a few adds, commits, and a push and I'm all up to date! Thanks Blazeix!
[10:44] <rick_h_> morning
[11:15] <rick_h__> heh for jcastro http://www.j-baer.com/ubuntu-a-replace-for-chromeos
[12:15] <snap-l> Good morning
[12:15] <rick_h__> morn
[12:16] <snap-l> That headline makes no sense. :)
[12:16] <rick_h__> heh
[12:17] <snap-l> Computer OS: a replacement for web only OS
[12:17] <rick_h__> well if you read the article it has some sense in the end
[12:18] <snap-l> Not really.
[12:19] <snap-l> I dunno. It's like saying the car is better than an ash tray because you can run an ash tray in a car
[12:20] <rick_h__> I think an app is a bit more important to the OS than the ash tray to the car
[12:20] <snap-l> Two separate use cases
[12:20] <rick_h__> web apps as first class citizens like chromeos. It's a premise, not saying the title is super, but it makes more than 'no' sense.
[12:21] <snap-l> It's just surfacing shortcuts
[12:22] <snap-l> You used to be able to do that effectively by dragging bookmarks to the desktop
[12:22] <rick_h__> everyone whines that most chrome apps are just shortcuts to the page
[12:22] <snap-l> most of them are!
[12:22] <rick_h__> I think yuo get a full .desktop file with icon/etc and new windows treatment
[12:22] <snap-l> There's precious few that are actual apps
[12:22] <snap-l> MindMapr is one, Clock is another
[12:23] <snap-l> Try finding a Twitter app in the Chrome Store sometime. :)
[12:23] <snap-l> A good number of them are just redirects to some site that wants to add its two cents to the link
[12:24] <snap-l> Google Play: Link
[12:24] <snap-l> Google Keep: Link
[12:25] <snap-l> Actually, Keep isn't a link. Apologies
[12:25] <rick_h__> so there you go, "ubuntu and chromeos can link to web apps...news at 11"
[12:25] <snap-l> It just brings up Keep in a smaller Window
[12:26] <snap-l> There's more work to be done to make this "newsworthy"
[12:26] <rick_h__> it's a dude's blog post, not reddit or even ars :P
[12:26] <rick_h__> anyway, posted as another step in jcastro's path to pure web apps 4 lif
[12:27] <snap-l> You have wasted my time with this trivial nonsense. Good day, sir. ;)
[12:27] <rick_h__> getting carried away this lovely monday by a shared link to a blog post much?
[12:27] <rick_h__> :P
[12:27]  * rick_h__ goes back to oakland, looked like detroit anyway
[12:28] <snap-l> Good trip home?
[12:28] <rick_h__> meh, 4:15am cab ride to the airport, survive the day, pass out
[12:28] <snap-l> Ugh
[12:29] <snap-l> Traditional cab, or UUuuuuuber?
[12:29] <rick_h__> heh, normal cab
[12:29] <rick_h__> "mr hotel dude, please get me a ride for 4am kthx" version of uuuuber
[12:30] <snap-l> nice
[13:49] <jjesse> happy monday :)
[13:51] <jrwren> has anyone here actually used chromeos?
[13:51] <rick_h_> jrwren: yea, had their first device I gave away though
[13:51] <rick_h_> and chromeos changed to do multiple app/windowing more later so guess I can't speak to more recent stuff
[13:52] <jrwren> i'm surprised google doesn't ship a chromeos app for windows/mac. include emulation software that just runs all of chrome os
[13:52] <jrwren> full screen by default!
[13:53] <rick_h_> heh, but that's what I mean
[13:53] <rick_h_> the latest version isn't fullscreen all the time like the first iteration
[13:53] <jrwren> and I also think that chromeos will be dead withing hte next 2 yrs.
[13:53] <jrwren> understood.
[13:54] <rick_h_> most of the goodness of chromeos is the locked system, auto updating, low disk space/organization/etc, built in 4g.
[13:54] <rick_h_> heh, once my wife's medical software works on chrome I'll get her one for the house.
[13:58] <jrwren> once => never. :p
[13:59] <rick_h_> well I hear it's planned. It's damn web based and works in iXXX devices so the chrome not working is probably just UA lockout fud
[15:33] <snap-l> Hit a lag patch.
[15:35] <rick_h_> lag patch?
[15:39] <snap-l> Yeah, was lagged
[15:41] <snap-l> Didn't see the last bit of the ChromeOS discussion
[15:46] <rick_h_> not much to it
[16:43] <snap-l> Anyone know of a way to have more mind like water when your customers send you a timeline for something three weeks down the road that you're just now finding out about?
[16:43] <snap-l> And are on vacation for three work days? :)
[16:43] <snap-l> *breathe*
[16:44] <rick_h_> LUNCH BREAK TIME! be back tomorrow
[16:45] <snap-l> heh
[16:45] <snap-l> I'm surprised rick_h_ didn't leave behind his box of puppies to strangle
[16:46] <snap-l> I think he ran out though
[16:49] <snap-l> Also, someone at work asked for a clue. I responded: http://ur1.ca/du6pp
[16:49] <rick_h_> snap-l: but did you order one? That's the real question
[16:50] <snap-l> Nope, that's his responsibility
[18:05] <snap-l> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/business/monsanto-victorious-in-genetic-seed-case.html?_r=0
[18:08] <rick_h_> :/
[18:08] <rick_h_>  “that blame-the-bean defense.” <3
[20:58] <snap-l> jcastro: re: Brainstorm Ubuntu Sunset - YES, SUNSET THAT BITCH.


 Hopefully the weather will clear up in the afternoon.
[09:14] <lordievader[m]> Now it is a grey and rainy mess.
[09:15] <immu> hmm its bloddy hot here
[09:16] <immu> its 38 degree C
[09:20] <lordievader[m]> Would you like some rain with that?
[09:20] <lordievader[m]> I don't mind trading these clouds for a clear sky ;)
[09:28] <immu> sure , its hot and hazzy
[09:28] <immu> u step outside your home and your face gets burned :_)
[09:35] <lordievader[m]> Oh, that ain't nice.
[09:37] <lordievader[m]> https://i.redd.it/7epanbjdji2z.png
[09:47] <immu> nice commic, can i get to read more of it
[09:57] <BluesKaj> 'Morning folks
[09:59] <immu> morning BluesKaj
[10:00] <BluesKaj> hi immu
[10:02] <lordievader[m]> Hey BluesKaj
[10:02] <lordievader[m]> immu: Don't know, found it on the ProgrammerHumor subreddit.
[10:03] <BluesKaj> hi lordievader[m]
[10:05] <immu> hi hi all :)
[10:07] <lordievader[m]> How are you doing?
[10:12] <BluesKaj> good...morning coffee etc, and you?
[10:19] <lordievader[m]> Having lunch :)
[14:55] <immu> i am back
[14:55] <immu> sorry i dozed off
[15:01] <immu> brb
[15:33] <immu> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/06/gnome-apps-ubuntu-include-default-poll
[15:33] <immu> please vote
[18:03] <lotuspsychje> good evening to all
[18:04] <lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/06/ubuntu-is-not-dying-its-regenerating
[18:46] <immu> lotuspsychje, yeah
[18:59] <lotuspsychje> !wol
[18:59] <lotuspsychje> new trigger added by genii
[19:04] <kostkon> kinda useful
[19:10] <daftykins> never been bothered myself (:
[19:10] <daftykins> hey lotus \o
[19:13] <immu> daftykins, lotuspsychje hey :)
[19:13] <immu> 42mm Saddle Brown Classic Buckle
[19:13] <immu> oops
[19:14] <lotuspsychje> hey daftykins
[19:14] <immu> WOL i wake my devices my self
[19:14] <lotuspsychje> hi immu
[19:16] <immu> i need to decide a purchase for my apple watch band
[19:16] <immu> its ok to post the link here?
[19:16] <daftykins> no not if it's apple related
[19:16] <daftykins> ;)
[19:17] <immu> can't make my mind up
[19:41] <lotuspsychje> leftyfb: if every volunteer would mention wich google hit number they found their links, channel would be full
[19:41] <leftyfb> lotuspsychje: I only mentioned it because they had said they had trouble googling on their own
[19:42] <lotuspsychje> best to focus on the issue itself, instead
[19:42] <leftyfb> lotuspsychje: usually I just give the results page .... if they still can't find the answer I tell them which result and possibly give the link directly. But I only ever do this to begin with if it's a DEAD simple question they're asking that really should have been googled first.
[19:42] <leftyfb> lotuspsychje: questions like "how do I install ubuntu" or something.
[19:43] <lotuspsychje> even then we wont forward nobody to google
[19:43] <lotuspsychje> we use askubuntu links alot to solve things, we we dont have to mention it we googled it neither
[19:44] <leftyfb> I will. It's silly to feed that level of laziness. Nor do I want to remember all of the ubotu !commands
[19:44] <lotuspsychje> the users that need help, can be lazy here
[19:44] <lotuspsychje> thats whats the help channe is for
[19:44] <lotuspsychje> to get help with issues
[19:44] <lotuspsychje> even noob questions
[19:45] <leftyfb> I do this maybe 5% of the time. Only when it's pretty obvious the person is more lazy than looking for legitimate help. In fact, most of the time it's actually the person just trolling.
[19:46] <leftyfb> I feel my contributions are valid and legitimately helpful
[19:46] <lotuspsychje> we can easy see the difference between help needing users and trolls
[19:47] <lotuspsychje> leftyfb: never said your contribution isnt valid, just mentioning its better not to discuss google too much
[19:47] <lotuspsychje> it avoids too much offtopic
[19:47] <lotuspsychje> and focuses to a better support experience
[19:55] <lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/06/gnome-apps-ubuntu-include-default-poll
[19:56] <lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om
[19:57] <lotuspsychje> i warmed up the channel for ya Bashing-om
[19:57] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Hey hey ... good day in our neighborhood ?
[19:58] <lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: yeah running smoothly irc lines :p
[19:59] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Well ! Let me see what kind of trouble I can stir up :P
[19:59] <lotuspsychje> lol
[20:03] <lotuspsychje> oerheks: we should have a seperate !amdgpu or mentioning in the !amd trigger
[20:03] <lotuspsychje> looks like a usefull page right
[20:05] <oerheks> he should install 16.04
[20:06] <lotuspsychje> yeah
[20:10] <lotuspsychje> bbl guys lil bit of tv :p
[20:10] <lotuspsychje> have a nice1
[20:14] <immu> ouch
[20:14] <immu> good nite all