[00:02] <jussi01> Jack_Sparrow: why the kick on that guy=? he apologised...
[00:04] <Jack_Sparrow> jussi01 Johnny is in the russian channel.. says from greece and asking for a third language
[00:05] <jussi01> Jack_Sparrow: I was talking about dpawe3l
[00:05] <Jack_Sparrow> Tried to PM with no response
[00:06] <Flannel> Who runs floodbot2?
[00:06] <Flannel> jussi01: Oh, did you see the stuff where the floodbots banned the wrong person yesterday?
[00:07] <jussi01> no. hehe. how did that happen?
[00:07]  * jussi01 should be in bed
[00:07] <Jack_Sparrow> No, I didnt see that either
[00:07] <Flannel> I'm not really sure.  Someone pasted some stuff, and then they banned the guy he was pasting to.
[00:08] <Flannel> The thing in -monitor said "user n" which wasn't as far as I could tell, related to either of them.
[00:09]  * genii fluffs jussi01's pillow
[00:10] <Flannel> jussi01: it was oCean_<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and was... 25 hours and 10 minutes ago.
[00:11] <Flannel> That was the one who was banned by mistake.  That netsplit last night shuffled some of my windwos, so I don't have logs for -monitor
[00:12] <jussi01> Flannel: I dont do floodbots, go annoy pici, ljl or nal
[00:12] <Flannel> Sounds good.
[00:12] <Flannel> But, who runs FB2?  We're down to one right now.
[00:15] <jussi01> nalioth: I think has control/hosting of at least one of them
[00:15] <jussi01> iirc
[01:02] <Flannel> Two pronged attack!
[01:02] <jussi01> rofl
[01:02] <jussi01> and Im still up
[01:02] <Jack_Sparrow> You hit em high I'll hit em low
[01:02]  * Flannel notes that advances in dual-op processing has greatly increased the efficiency of administration of IRC channels.
[01:02] <Jack_Sparrow> Cute
[01:04] <Seeker`> jussi01: is sleep evading you?
[01:05] <jussi01> yes
[01:05] <jussi01> sigh
[01:05] <Seeker`> i'd k-line it if i were you
[01:06] <Flannel> sleep evasion is a one way ticket to the k train.
[01:26] <Mez> great response :D
[01:26] <Mez> http://rafb.net/p/8Kzy0X77.html
[01:31] <Seeker`> nice
[01:42] <jussi01> Pricey: you around?
[01:58] <Seeker`> I think he is more of atriangle
[02:00] <Pricey> jussi01: whats up?
[02:28] <Seeker`> hmm, someone just changed their nick from ango|ciggy to ango|high, inappropriate?
[02:32] <nikrud> Seeker`, just glanced in, ango| unsuitable seems very appropriate ;)
[02:32] <Seeker`> nikrud: I asked him to change it :)
[02:34] <Flannel> sigh
[02:35] <Seeker`> Flannel?
[02:35] <Flannel> Repeat Drive-bys
[03:15] <nikrud> weird.
[03:16] <Seeker`> yes
[03:16] <Flannel> forwarded here.
[04:46] <Flannel> |_ocke: You know better than to idle here.
[05:20] <jdong> wow....
[05:52] <jrib> lonely friday night I guess
[05:53] <Tm_T> perhaps, though it's Saturday here
[05:53] <jrib> saturday morning counts as friday night :)
[05:54] <Tm_T> 0754 it is, so definately NOT friday night
[05:54] <Flannel> Tm_T: How about 9:18?
[05:55] <Tm_T> Flannel: que?
[05:55] <Flannel> Tm_T: Ignore me
[05:55] <Tm_T> Flannel: I usually do, son
[05:55] <Flannel> Good, good.
[06:01] <bazhang> |_ocke, how may we help you; if you have no pressing issue please part the channel
[06:14] <bazhang> !idle | |_ocke
[06:33] <Flannel> Bye Ali!
[06:33] <nikrud> ?
[06:33] <nikrud> ah
[06:33] <Amaranth> hehe
[06:34] <bazhang> conor again?
[06:34] <Amaranth> looks that way, dunno who that is though
[06:34] <nikrud> does it matter, in the full scheme of things?
[06:34] <bazhang> one of the original emo fellows in -ot
[06:34] <Amaranth> !danger
[06:34] <Amaranth> ah, bleh
[06:35] <nikrud> rm -rf / < -- so sue me :)
[06:35] <bazhang> |_ocke, do you have pressing business here?
[06:35] <Amaranth> someone wanted it to say danger, will robinson, danger
[06:35] <Amaranth> it already does
[06:35] <Amaranth> !-danger
[06:48] <nikrud> bazhang, I've been seeing that error reported quite a bit lately
[06:48] <Flannel> nikrud: that bugreport help any?
[06:49] <bazhang> nikrud, but he is completely ignoring any and all advice and just repeating 'hellp mmeeeee!!!!'
[06:49] <nikrud> bazhang, just told him that to his face
[06:49] <nikrud> bazhang, we just crossed in time, not in intent
[06:50] <nikrud> Flannel, what I've read so far is it's a known problem, haven't looked at the debian bug report yet
[06:50] <Flannel> Sounds good
[06:51] <nikrud> and, the only thing in there I saw that could be handled by someone at my level, is, ta da! disk space inadequate!!
[06:51] <bazhang> @bansearch |_ocke
[06:51] <bazhang> @login
[06:52] <Amaranth> whoa
[06:52] <Amaranth> @bansearch Al1_
[06:52] <Amaranth> @login
[06:52] <Amaranth> @bansearch Al1_
[06:52] <bazhang> |_ocke, idling here wont get your ban removed quicker
[06:52] <Amaranth> now _that_ is cool
[06:52] <stdin> Amaranth: you only just noticed that? ;)
[06:52] <bazhang> |_ocke, the opposite may in fact occur
[06:52] <Amaranth> stdin: I've been...away
[06:53] <Flannel> nikrud: It's apt-get clean
[06:53] <nikrud> Flannel, so correct me there :0
[06:53] <stdin> Amaranth: I noticed, but it's been there since July
[06:55] <bazhang> _anu is either not paying attention, or some other issue
[06:55] <tritium> ADD
[06:55] <Flannel> ADD is a made up disease
[06:55]  * Flannel gets off the soapbox.
[06:55] <tritium> Flannel: I agree.
[06:55] <bazhang> aspergers?
[06:55] <tritium> But, in this case, it's a convenient diagnosis.
[06:55] <bazhang> not sure if that is a cheese or a syndrome
[06:56] <Flannel> bazhang: aspergers people would be fine in IRC
[06:56]  * Flannel knows a few in meatspace.
[06:56]  * nikrud looks at Flannel and tritium and wonders when they got licensed
[06:56] <bazhang> Flannel, not clear on what it really is though
[06:57] <Flannel> bazhang: Its a form of autism  ("high-functioning autism"
[06:57]  * tritium gives nikrud the evil eye
[06:57] <bazhang> Flannel, aha
[06:57] <nikrud> I know people with both. Patience trying but worth the effort
[06:57] <bazhang> caused by vaccines/power lines I would suppose
[06:57] <Flannel> bazhang: They can do fine in social situations, but sometimes lack discretion abotu some social situations.
[06:58] <tritium> It's caused by flouridated water ;)
[06:58] <bazhang> ubottu has aspergers?
[06:58] <Flannel> Soemtimes they'll be inappropraite, etc.  But theyre "all there"
[06:58] <bazhang> oh misread
[06:58] <nikrud> asperger's is an interesting one: they nearly always miss social ques we hardly notice but register; it makes for embarassment and isolation
[06:58]  * nikrud goes to turn on the spellchecker
[06:58] <Flannel> Oh, also, sometimes they will get 'stuck' on things, and won't drop them until much later, etc.
[06:59] <bazhang> or he could just be really impatient
 who understand dpkg more
[07:00] <bazhang> :/
[07:00] <Flannel> I think in this case he's just impatient and doesn't understand how IRC works with... all kinds of people, etc.
[07:00] <bazhang> yep
[07:00] <nikrud> and not primary english speaker, which also makes it harder
[07:01] <bazhang> time to man dpkg for me
[07:01] <bazhang> although many native speakers are using eny1?
[07:03] <nikrud> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpkg/+bug/262451 bazhang start here
[07:03] <Flannel> eny1?  What on earth?
[07:04] <bazhang> anyone, u for you, etc
[07:04] <Flannel> usually its "ne1"
[07:04] <bazhang> nikrud, thanks, though he wants cups fixed now
[07:05] <Flannel> eny1 is.... even more of a disaster than ne1
[07:05] <nikrud> bazhang, cups is mentioned there
[07:05] <bazhang> true
[07:05] <bazhang> I have seen it in -ot and main channel of late though
[07:06] <nikrud> and all the fixes that I see require some serious work arounds to do. Not something I'm doing over internet
[07:06]  * Flannel is going to go Amaranth on people who use that.
[07:08] <bazhang> yay
[07:08] <nikrud> eny1 eny1 eny1
[07:08] <Flannel> tritium: I think I'm going to forward him here next
[07:08] <tritium> Flannel: good call
[07:08] <Flannel> !amaranth | nikrud
[07:08] <bazhang> that had to be 23 helpme!'s too many
[07:09] <nikrud> yeah, tolerance is good and all, but ...
[07:09] <bazhang> this is way beyond that
[07:15]  * tritium prods Flannel
[07:15] <Flannel> psh
[07:15] <Flannel> you made me push down like eight times
[07:15] <bazhang> !helpme
[07:15] <Flannel> I was hovering over enter
[07:15]  * nikrud pushes Flannel's hand
[07:15] <tritium> sorry :)
[07:17] <Flannel> oh lord
[07:17]  * tritium quotes Arnold in Predator, "Come on... Come on! Do it! Do it! Come on. Come on!"
[07:17] <tritium> Do it now!
[07:17] <Flannel> tritium: Leave the governator out of it
[07:18] <bazhang> hehe
[07:18]  * nikrud considers kicking flannel in the shins
[07:18] <Flannel> Oh dear.  I ought to do it now to save the Gnea abuse
[07:19] <Flannel> Well, it's bound to happen in the next few minutes, then it'll be forwarded
[07:20] <tritium> This is better than the movies.  I'm going to pop some popcorn.
[07:20] <Flannel> Well, right now (s)he is technically following the rules, etc.  So, forwarding now would just be stirring the... pot.... What's that cliche?
[07:20] <tritium> Flannel: "I'll be back!"
[07:21] <nickrud> Flannel, oh, darn. I warned gnea so there would be no flamage. Putting it all back on you again. You know of course that tritium bazhang and I are just watchers here
[07:21] <Flannel> Hi tonyr2k8, how can we help you?
[07:21] <bazhang> tonyr2k8, how may we assist you
[07:23] <tritium> tonyr2k8: I'm sorry you're having trouble.  Please press 1 to continue.
[07:26] <Flannel> That was odd.
[07:26] <tritium> Indeed.
[07:35] <bazhang> |_ocke, how may we assist
[07:42] <tritium> Truly annoying.
 don't play me
[07:44] <Flannel> Here we go....
[07:44] <Flannel> Hi _anu
[07:44] <_anu> ni Flannel
[07:44] <_anu> hi
[07:44] <_anu> what shall i do then
[07:44] <Flannel> _anu: We've brought you here (this isn't #ubuntu, and we won't be doing support here) to help you understand why some people have taken issue with your behavior
[07:44] <Flannel> so that hopefully, we won't have any issues in the future
[07:45] <_anu> what do you want to say
[07:46] <Flannel> _anu: #ubuntu is a busy channel, and you're not hte only one there asking for support.  It's not appropriate (or useful) for you to ask "are you there?"  "help me" and so on every 20 seconds, or even every few minutes.
[07:46] <_anu> ok , let me back
[07:46] <Flannel> _anu: Slow down there.
 don't play me
[07:46] <bazhang> or that
[07:47] <_anu> i just want to solve my problem
[07:47] <_anu> no other attitude
[07:47] <stdin> tritium: you should be in -ot
[07:47] <Flannel> _anu: The most recent thing had to d owith you being impatient.  You pasted, I saw, and I was reading.  It takes a while to read your paste, and even longer to try and figure out an answer.
[07:47] <tritium> stdin: thanks, am I being bad-mouthed?
[07:47] <stdin> tritium: by PresidentRaffi
[07:47] <_anu> you guys , let me back
[07:48] <_anu> thanks
[07:48] <Flannel> _anu: Do you understand?  You're not here beign punished, we just can't allow you to keep causing noise in #ubuntu
[07:48] <tritium> stdin: thanks for letting me know
[07:48] <_anu> Flannel , thank you
[07:48] <Flannel> _anu: Alright, please leave here and rejoin #ubutu
[07:49] <Flannel> tritium: I suggest forwarding President here from -ot
[07:49] <Flannel> We need to sit down and explain to him, and -ot will have an audience
[07:49] <Flannel> and that wont work well.
[07:49] <Flannel> Or, just ban him in general, shrug
[07:50] <bazhang> yep
[07:50] <Flannel> I may have too much faith in people.  Who knows.
[07:51] <PresidentRaffi> i want to be unbanned
[07:51] <PresidentRaffi> to continue offering ubuntu support
[07:51] <bazhang> then stay on topic
[07:51] <PresidentRaffi> also, it would be nice if ops didn't indiscriminately ban n00bs
[07:51] <PresidentRaffi> seeing as this whole
[07:51] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: It doesn't quite work that way.  Especially considering your mannerisms in -ot
[07:51] <PresidentRaffi> Ubuntu, pronounced [ùbúntú], is an ethic or humanist philosophy focusing on people's allegiances and relations with each other.
[07:51] <PresidentRaffi> thing works
[07:52] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: You don't have any idea what you're talking about.  For the record.
[07:52] <PresidentRaffi> is that so
[07:52] <Flannel> I'm just going to say that off the bat.
[07:52] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Correct.
[07:52] <bazhang> PresidentRaffi, you came very late to that situation
[07:52] <PresidentRaffi> i observed conflict where there needn't be
[07:52] <PresidentRaffi> and attempted to help
[07:53] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: We're talknig about _anu, correct?
[07:53] <bazhang> you seem unready to rejoin #ubuntu then
[07:53] <tritium> PresidentRaffi: you created conflict with your rude comments
[07:53] <PresidentRaffi> you created conflict by banning me
[07:53] <tritium> No, you did that to yourself
[07:53] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: You refused to stay on topic.
[07:53] <PresidentRaffi> yeah, i banned myself
[07:53] <tritium> Effectively, yes, with your !arrogance remark
[07:53] <bazhang> cursing in offtopic did nothing to help you
[07:53] <PresidentRaffi> i was dragged off topic by numerous invasive requests regarding my language with respect to assisting others
[07:53] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: We have an obligation to keep #ubuntu usable for everyone.  Which means removing abusive users.
[07:54] <PresidentRaffi> perhaps we have different conceptions of "abuse"
[07:54] <tritium> Demeaning others in the channel, suggesting they be "mascots" is no way to follow the Ubuntu Code of Conduct, PresidentRaffi.
[07:54] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Perhaps we do.  But the channel guidelines are prominently displayed.
[07:54] <PresidentRaffi> that wasn't meant to be demeaning, in any respect
[07:54] <tritium> It is.
[07:54] <PresidentRaffi> signs, signs everywhere the signs
[07:54] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: what was this language what was requested?
[07:55] <PresidentRaffi> Tm_T: eh?
[07:55] <bazhang> it was offtopic chatting and disrespectful to say the least PresidentRaffi
[07:55] <tritium> I see no sign of remorse, and therefore no reason to lift the ban.
[07:55] <PresidentRaffi> wait
[07:55] <PresidentRaffi> wait
[07:55] <PresidentRaffi> i'm just going to copy that message
[07:55] <PresidentRaffi> for the record
[07:55] <bazhang> perhaps one in -ot too?
[07:55] <PresidentRaffi> no sign of remorse
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> and therefore no reason to lift the ban
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> so you believe that as an operator following the guidelines
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> you become infallible?
[07:56] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: no
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> that was certainly the implication
[07:56] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: it wasn't, son
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> more strongly implied than any demeaning subtext to suggesting somebody should be a mascot
[07:56] <elkbuntu> PresidentRaffi, your rudeness here is not going to help you at all
[07:56] <tritium> Your logic is very flawed if you think that.
[07:56] <stdin> if you can't respect the rules of the channel, then the privilege of joining that channel will be removed from you
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> i'm not being rude
[07:56] <PresidentRaffi> not in the slightest
[07:57] <elkbuntu> PresidentRaffi, yes, you are.
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> let me be blunt
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> i use arch linux, yes?
[07:57] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: I ask again, you were dragged to offtopic by what language?
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> i came to ubuntu specifically to help people
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> who are new to linux
[07:57] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: That's well and good, but not relevant.
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> by typing !arrogant after somebody complained about my use of the enter key
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> that's completely relevant, if you're trying to improve the quality of the channel
[07:57] <stdin> the reason for you joining the channel is irrelevant, you're behaviour in the channel is all that is
[07:57] <PresidentRaffi> why would you ban users trying to be helpful?
[07:58] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Because you were causing trouble.
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> and i say you were causing trouble
[07:58] <Flannel> Being helpful isn't a free pass to be a nuisance.
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> and of course
[07:58] <bazhang> tritium, PM?
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> you're the ones with the @s
[07:58] <tritium> bazhang: certainly
[07:58] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Pray tell, how was I causing trouble?
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> so your words receive more weight than mine
[07:58] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: it's not arrogance to try to keep channel clean
[07:58] <stdin> you should respect all users, regardless of op powers
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> i do respect all users
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> i have trouble respecting anybody who grants himself authority
[07:58] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: I'd like to know how I was causing trouble.
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> where that authority is unnecessary
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> or harmful
[07:58] <PresidentRaffi> not you, flannel, the !enter guy
[07:59] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: how that is causing trouble?
[07:59] <elkbuntu> PresidentRaffi, I have not seen what you did, but even without I see you being rude here. Please stop being rude, or I will remove you from here, and you will have lost your chance.
[07:59] <stdin> the respectful thing to do would have been to ask the person why they used !enter, or to actually read the message from the bot about it. rather than try to use the bot to attack another
[07:59] <PresidentRaffi> how am i being rude?
[07:59] <PresidentRaffi> what have i said in this room that was rude?
[07:59] <PresidentRaffi> i can infer why they used enter, i take it they took part to the way i type
[07:59] <elkbuntu> PresidentRaffi, nobody in here granted themselves authority. it's all peer-given
[08:00] <PresidentRaffi> so it's democratic?
[08:00] <PresidentRaffi> let me know when the elections are
[08:00] <PresidentRaffi> i will be sure to express my opinions
[08:00] <bazhang> PresidentRaffi, please dont idle here
[08:00] <Tm_T> ...
[08:00] <PresidentRaffi> i'm not idling, i'm contesting my ban
[08:00] <bazhang> PresidentRaffi, there is nothing more to discuss
[08:00] <tritium> PresidentRaffi: you've been answered
[08:00] <elkbuntu> it is not possible for this to be a democratic process. meritocracy is a better system
[08:00] <PresidentRaffi> i haven't been answered, actually
[08:00] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess
[08:01] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: you have, actually =)
[08:01] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Feel free to forward your complaint up the chain.
[08:01] <PresidentRaffi> you haven't responded to any of my arguments
[08:01] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: it wont be lifted at this time
[08:01] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: we have
[08:01] <PresidentRaffi> rather you've regarded them as if i've been impertinent
[08:01] <PresidentRaffi> or simply changed the subject
[08:01] <PresidentRaffi> i'm not a child, i'm not new to discussion
[08:01] <tritium> PresidentRaffi: you've also been warned that you're close to being removed.    I'd be willing to take a few minutes here and answer your questions.  However, you'll have to actually accept those answers, and remain mature throughout the process.
[08:03] <PresidentRaffi> i take it those answers are oriented around "how the process currently works"
[08:03] <PresidentRaffi> not "how the process ideally works"
[08:03] <Flannel> But if you're just wasting my time, I'm not going to play the game.
[08:03] <PresidentRaffi> do i look like i'm trying to waste anybody's time?
[08:03] <bazhang> yes
[08:03] <Flannel> I never said you were.  I'm just saying.  I won't have my time wasted.
[08:03] <PresidentRaffi> well, i guess that's a matter of perception, then
[08:04] <bazhang> or reality
[08:04] <Tm_T> bazhang: let Flannel talk (:
[08:04] <stdin> if you have specific questions, please ask them
[08:04] <PresidentRaffi> there is that small chance, bazhang, that i will get people to consider their actions in a larger context than they currently do
[08:04] <bazhang> Tm_T, PM?
[08:04] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Again, if you'd like to discuss, please, let's discuss.
[08:04] <Tm_T> bazhang: you can, son
[08:04] <PresidentRaffi> well, let's discuss, then
[08:05] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: You said you had questions that were unanswered, feel free to ask (the first of) them.
[08:05] <PresidentRaffi> ok
[08:05] <PresidentRaffi> let's see
[08:05] <PresidentRaffi> besides rules currently implemented in #ubuntu, and despite any conflicts that have arisen between me and operators as a result of operators suggesting changes to my behavior
[08:06] <PresidentRaffi> can you come up with a compelling reason for me, who's offering my help to noobs, to continue to be banned?
[08:06] <elkbuntu> the fact that you refer to them as 'noobs' for one
[08:06] <stdin> your attitude in -offtopic
[08:06] <tritium> Yes.  You've shown no sign of remorse for what you've done or said.
[08:06] <PresidentRaffi> my attitude in #offtopic AFTER i was banned from #ubuntu
[08:06] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: The reason you were banned was because you refused to remain on topic, after a number of warnings to do so.
[08:06] <PresidentRaffi> noobs is a term of affection
[08:06] <tritium> PresidentRaffi: would you like to elaborate on what hanging out in #ubuntu feels like?
[08:07] <stdin> PresidentRaffi: it's still not acceptable, in any ubuntu channel
[08:07] <PresidentRaffi> it feels like a place where i understand linux better than most of the other people talking, and can offer my services as a result
[08:07] <PresidentRaffi> my messages veered offtopic AFTER the suggestions to change my tone
[08:07] <tritium> PresidentRaffi: oh, because you also said it's like "tutoring poor kids in the city"
[08:07] <tritium> Would you like to elaborate on that?
[08:07] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: No.  They didn't.  Would you like me to quote them?
[08:08] <PresidentRaffi> go right ahead
[08:08] <PresidentRaffi> tritium: well, more like tutoring kids period
[08:08] <PresidentRaffi> although most of the tutoring work i've done in reality has been in the city
[08:08] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Here's a log: http://paste.ubuntu.com/108887/
[08:09] <stdin> having knowledge does not make one exempt from channel rules, no matter how knowledgeable you are
[08:09] <Flannel> Only the *last* *few* had anyhting to do with the timeframe surrounding your ban.
[08:09] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: That's a straight /lastlog of you.  No editing.
[08:09] <PresidentRaffi> let's see..me talking about dpkg's shortcomings
[08:09] <Flannel> Notice how there's a few offtopics, and *no* support breaking them up?
[08:09] <PresidentRaffi> me talking about jre and itunes as examples of proprietary incompatibilities and consumer captivity
[08:10] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: And neither of those topics are on topic.
[08:10] <PresidentRaffi> me talking about _anu favorably so you will stop banning her
[08:10] <PresidentRaffi> they aren't now
[08:10] <PresidentRaffi> well, they were questions asked
[08:10] <stdin> none of that is on topic for #ubuntu
[08:10] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: The first thing I told you when you got here:  You have no idea what you're talking about.
[08:10] <tritium> You calling _anu "weird and obscure", and suggesting we make her a mascot...
[08:10] <Flannel> anu is *not* banned.
[08:10] <PresidentRaffi> i didn't call her weird and obscure
[08:10] <PresidentRaffi> i said she reminded me of somebody who was
[08:11] <tritium> Insults such as that are not welcome in the channel.
[08:11] <PresidentRaffi> it was not an insult
[08:11] <tritium> Truly, it is.
[08:11] <PresidentRaffi> i was talking about a brilliant poet
[08:11] <PresidentRaffi> one of my favorites
[08:11] <PresidentRaffi> and a friend of mine personally
[08:11] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Regardless of whether it was an insult, it's not Ubuntu support.
[08:12] <stdin> I think that answers question 1
[08:12] <PresidentRaffi> ok?
[08:12] <PresidentRaffi> the point was to facilitate ubuntu support
[08:12] <PresidentRaffi> by not making her frustrated by antagonistic people in the channel
[08:12] <stdin> is there a 2nd question?
[08:12] <PresidentRaffi> you still haven't answered the first
[08:13] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: The only thing that goes on in #ubuntu is support.  No discussion, no chatting.  No random wolf references.
[08:13] <stdin> we have, you just refuse to accept the answers
[08:13] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Actually, we have.  You were offtopic, and refused listen when we warned you about it.
[08:13] <PresidentRaffi> i refuse to accept them? or you blow my statements widely out of context?
[08:13] <PresidentRaffi> did you read my first question? a compelling reason for me to remain banned without referencing channel rules
[08:13] <Flannel> That's why you're banned.  The ban would be at least a few hours (or until a discussion about it occurred).
[08:13] <PresidentRaffi> if an application of a rule is appropriate, let's hear it
[08:14] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: The *only* reason to ban is a channel rule.....
[08:14] <PresidentRaffi> but the rule is a means to an end, not the end in itself
[08:14] <stdin> the reason is compelling enough for us, maybe not for you
[08:14] <PresidentRaffi> well, stdin, i used to believe things like that
[08:14] <bazhang> this is a waste of time.
[08:14] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Remember what I said about wasting my time?  Your contrived 'conditions' are fast approaching that.
[08:14] <tritium> Agreed.
[08:14] <PresidentRaffi> they're not contrived
[08:14] <PresidentRaffi> they're designed to make you understand that the rules actually exist for a purpose
[08:14] <PresidentRaffi> and that you should enforce the rules only when they serve that purpose
[08:14] <bazhang> there is no 'free speech'
[08:14] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Like I said, the only reason we ban people is becuase of the rules.
[08:15] <bazhang> there is offtopic for chat
[08:15] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: the purpose of the offtopic rule:  Keep the channel usable
[08:15] <stdin> we have told you why you are banned, is there anything else you want to know? if not then it's best to leave
[08:15] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Regardless, we don't have to explain the rules to you.  If you have a problem with them, there's an appeal process.  Please make use of it.
[08:15] <PresidentRaffi> the problem here seems to be that i contest your authority
[08:15] <PresidentRaffi> it appears that if i apologized
[08:15] <Flannel> PresidentRaffi: Goodbye PresidentRaffi.
[08:15] <stdin> feel free not to use the ubuntu channels
[08:15] <PresidentRaffi> perceived by you as an act of submission
[08:15] <PresidentRaffi> then this would have been averted
[08:16] <PresidentRaffi> or if i submitted by conforming to your inane interpretation of the channel rules
[08:16]  * Flannel nudges someone.
[08:16] <Tm_T> PresidentRaffi: sorry son, but it's not that (:
[08:16] <PresidentRaffi> do you remember what i said? i came here to help
[08:16] <PresidentRaffi> look where we are now
[08:16] <Flannel> Thank you tritium
[08:16] <Flannel> Watch for blowback in -ot
[08:16] <Tm_T> bah, I wanted
[08:17] <Flannel> Speak of the devil!
 i hate IRCops
[08:17] <bazhang> in -ot now
[08:17] <Flannel> bazhang: We can read for ourselvs
[08:17] <Tm_T> Flannel: not all of us are there
[08:17] <bazhang> es
[08:17] <Flannel> tritium: You can ban him in -ot at any time ;)
[08:17] <bazhang> :)
[08:17] <Flannel> oh, stdin is on it!
[08:17] <tritium> I shall
[08:17] <bazhang> spelling cops too
[08:17] <stdin> Flannel: I have no +o in -ot though
[08:18] <Flannel> Really though, he doesn't need a soapbox
[08:18] <tritium> Everyone should have ops in -ot
[08:18] <bazhang> yep
[08:18]  * Flannel sneaks a sharpie onto the IRC rules wiki page, adds "If you manage to actually make Flannel angry at you, you deserve a ban"
[08:19] <bazhang> haha
[08:19] <mpeter> now i'd like to contest my ban to #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:19] <mpeter> seeing as it is, in fact
[08:19] <mpeter> the offtopic channel...
[08:19] <Flannel> mpeter: Your prior language is reason enough.
[08:19] <bazhang> presidentraffi?
[08:19] <mpeter> is it? but that language wouldn't have been present were it not for your own actions
[08:19] <mpeter> israel vs. gaza, blah blah blah, neither of them are right
[08:19] <Flannel> mpeter: I urge you to drop it now.  You likely don't want a ban here as well.
[08:19] <mpeter> both sides can't end it
[08:19] <Tm_T> mpeter: sorry, but two bad doesn't make right
[08:20] <mpeter> you know why?
[08:20] <mpeter> because each side sees the other side as an adversary
[08:20] <Tm_T> mpeter: you can end it, right now
[08:20] <stdin> please leave, you will not be unbanned
[08:20] <mpeter> they fail to recognize their common humanity
[08:20] <mpeter> and work towards a mutual interest
[08:20] <Tm_T> oh boy
[08:20] <Gary> nothing unusal there
[08:20] <bazhang> ubuntu and the middle east?
[08:20]  * Flannel hopes this doesn't turn into a "which channel can I join next" battle
[08:21] <bazhang> thats a stretch
[08:21] <tritium> One thing's for sure: He thinks he's a philosopher.
[08:21] <Tm_T> he's not in k
[08:21] <Tm_T> tritium: maybe he is
[08:21] <Flannel> tritium: And he thinks that us banning him is carte blanc for misbehavior.  Just like support gives you the ability to be offtopic.
[08:21] <stdin> yeah, I find replying to people like that in an emotive maner just fuels the fire. I find it's best to keep a neutral tone with them
[08:22] <Tm_T> stdin: emotions should be kept back anyway
[08:22] <Flannel> Blargghgh.
[08:22] <Tm_T> Flannel: means you should calm down, son (;)
[08:22] <Flannel> Now that I've wasted time with him, I have no idea if anu actually got help.
[08:22] <stdin> emotions, Data must be insane to want them :)
[08:23] <Gary> stdin: it took me too long to realise what you meant there
[08:24] <stdin> I just hope you're not the only one to get it
[08:24] <Gary> yeah, room full of geeks an all
[08:25] <Tm_T> geeks, where?
[08:25] <tritium> I think we all find that to be true, stdin.
[08:25] <Gary> there ---->
[08:25] <Tm_T> I'm happy that I'm no geek nor man
[08:25] <stdin> tritium: the difficult bit is remembering it when you need it
[08:25] <Gary> Tm_T: you can be a female geek (look at Myrtti /me hides)
[08:26] <Gary> you need to emcompass your geekness, it knows no gender boundarys
[08:26] <stdin> on the net, even girls can have beards
[08:27] <Gary> lol
[08:27] <tritium> stdin: I don't believe any of us reacted with too much emotion in that situation.
[08:28] <bazhang> especially considering that he was out and out trolling
[08:28] <tritium> I see he's back.
[08:28] <Flannel> What?
[08:29] <Flannel> Oh
[08:29] <tritium> Flannel: see him?
[08:29] <Flannel> I do!
[08:29] <Flannel> Sorry, I'm trying to do support ;)
[08:30]  * Flannel darns those channel purposes.
[08:30] <Flannel> Hmmm, I wonder if that's a double entendre.
[08:31] <tritium> He's quiet.  Perhaps he's wondering how we noticed him.
[08:34] <stdin> same ident, different IP
[08:34] <Flannel> similar IP
[08:35] <tritium> yep
[08:35] <Flannel> likelygrabbed another access point at school or something
[08:36] <tritium> Shall I remove him for ban-evading?
[08:39] <Flannel> Probably.
[08:39] <stdin> they signed on <2 mins after mpeter disconnected, it's probably safe
[08:40] <tritium> I think it's the right thing to do...
[08:40] <Flannel> Try just /remove though, he may figure the gig is up, and drop it.
[08:40] <tritium> Will do.
[08:40] <tritium> stdin: it's him.  He mentioned being banned in 3 ubuntu channels in #archlinux
[08:40] <Flannel> Is that a badge of honor?
[08:41] <stdin> and there's only 1 other user from that institute on freenode
[08:41] <stdin> it's more likely the same person than not
[08:41] <Flannel> I know sometimes arch -ot people will raid #u, but.... I imagine that's individuals being dumb
[08:41] <Gary> what channel is he in?
[08:42] <tritium> Gary: rkstr?
[08:42] <tritium> None on freenode currently.
[08:42] <stdin> he's +i
[08:48] <|_ocke> sorry au tojoin aain
[08:48] <|_ocke> it tries to join #ubunt u-offtopic
[08:49] <bazhang> |_ocke, dont idle here
[08:49] <Flannel> |_ocke: Aye
[08:49] <Flannel> bazhang: He's talking, not idling.
[08:50] <|_ocke> i would like to be unbanned, but i t seems someone has said there are no plans  to unban me
[08:50] <|_ocke> so i guess i should probably leave since theres nothing i can argue with that
[08:50] <Flannel> |_ocke: No, I don't believe anyone has said that.  If I remember correctly the last conversation we had ended with you abruptly going AFK
[08:51] <Flannel> But, you're of course welcome to leave
[08:52] <|_ocke> i thougt somene said  there were no plans to uhban me when  i stopped trying to quibble
[08:52] <|_ocke>  i only have working hand hence the   typos, sorry
[08:52] <|_ocke> one working h a d i mean
[08:57] <Flannel> |_ocke: Mmm, I don't see anyone saying anything like that.
[08:58] <tritium> I'm going to bed now.  Have a good night|day.
[08:59] <Flannel> The last conversation you and I had is available here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/108892/
[09:00] <Flannel> And, assuming you have learned to control yourself better  (and everything else I said), the offer still stands.
[09:08] <|_ocke> well, i can control myself,and i've also stopped drtinking on weekdays
[09:08] <Flannel> |_ocke: and you understand that the next time this happens, you'll wind up banned for an even longer period
[09:09] <|_ocke> i understand
[09:10] <Flannel> |_ocke: Alright.  I can't do anything at the moment, but I'll see what I can do about it.  If all goes well, the next time you autojoin, you won't be forwarded here.
[09:10] <|_ocke> understandabale, i appreciate that
[09:10] <|_ocke> i promise iwont make you regret it
[09:10] <Flannel> I appreciate that.
[09:10] <|_ocke> since starting a full ti me job, i have different priorities than ihad before
[09:13] <Flannel> |_ocke: Sometimes it takes things like that to put things into perspective.  Also, remember not to idle here, thanks.
[09:15] <|_ocke> yeah ok i'm out
[09:15] <|_ocke> till my linux restarts
[09:15] <|_ocke> which is not often
[09:16] <|_ocke> i' ve gone several months at a  time besides updates
[09:19] <Gary> |_ocke: while we would love to chat with you, this is a operator channel, no chat etc, and we ask that people do not idle here (so that we do not have spectators) so could you /part?  I'm sure your ban will be lifted very soon and you'll be able to join the channel again.
[09:20] <Gary> @login
[09:20] <Gary> @btlogin
[09:24] <|_ocke> k
[09:25] <Gary> reading bantracker, he was very offtopic
[09:25] <Flannel> Indeed.
[09:26] <Flannel> But, it was a month ago, he does seem to have grown up a bit, *and* he has understood the fact that if he does it again, it means super-duper long term megaban.
[09:26] <Gary> I'd give him a go, is it just the -ot ban which redirects here?
[09:26] <Flannel> Yeah
[09:27] <bazhang> he has been through this cycle many times
[09:27] <Gary> I might leave the #ubuntu ban in place till he has shown himself in -offtopic
[09:27] <bazhang> and *this* time is always the last time
[09:27] <Flannel> bazhang: Only twice.
[09:27] <Flannel> And no, that's not accurate either.
[09:28] <Flannel> Hmmm, maybe thrice?
[09:28] <bazhang> extensive multiple PM's with him on this very issue
[09:29] <Gary> nothing too wrong with giving chances, one day they will listen and then you have won
[09:29] <bazhang> many many warnings and removals
[09:29] <bazhang> true
[09:29]  * Flannel knows only whats in BT, and he's seen in -ot/here over the months.
[09:29] <bazhang> and here's hoping this is the time.
[09:29] <Gary> turning a troll into a useful member is a great thing
[09:30] <Flannel> He's not a troll, he just has trouble controlling himself (and maybe misunderstands whats appropriate)
[09:31] <bazhang> alcohol issues imo
[09:32] <Flannel> Hopefully that's behind him too.  Which is for his benefit, both online, and in meatspace.
[09:32] <jussi01> meatspace :
[09:32] <jussi01> heheheh
[09:32]  * Flannel can see the headlines now "Ubuntu Ops teams saves local youth from life of delinquency"
[09:33] <Flannel> Ok, maybe not.
[09:56] <bazhang> setting the mountpoint in a livecd? one which operates inside of a vm?
[10:08] <bazhang> and a livecd inside a vm that works as fast an installed system no less
[10:57] <bazhang> @login
[10:57] <bazhang> @btlogin
[14:02] <Jack_Sparrow> @login
[14:02] <Jack_Sparrow> @btlogin
[15:17] <nickrud> why do I always miss the exciting times by minutes
[15:20] <Jack_Sparrow> MOrning
[15:35] <tritium> Good morning.
        looks like a bot
[18:14]  * jpds watches RocketLauncher in #ubuntu.
[20:50] <Jack_Sparrow> @login
[20:50] <Jack_Sparrow> @btlogin


[21:33] <lapion> hello
[21:33] <lapion> ubuntu-mythtv is still broken ?
[21:42] <Jay2k1> 11Oct 22:18:13  [+stuarta]	Gumby`: if it was only committed last night, it might not make a build until tonight
[21:42] <Jay2k1> i'd say give it 1-2 more days
[22:42] <lapion> in the mean time most people that use 16.04 risk auto-updates that break mythtv


[05:57] <mup> PR operator#595 opened: Add support for the new wait-change API <Created by benhoyt> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/595>


[00:00] <RAOF> phix: You'll want to file a bug, attaching the output of alsa-info.sh (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingSoundProblems) and a pulseaudio log; you can get that by killing the current daemon with "pulseaudio -k" and starting a new one with "pulseaudio -vvv 2>&1 > pulseaudio-debug-log"
[00:00] <Keybuk> ugh
[00:00] <Keybuk> wpa supplicant is worse
[00:00] <phix> ok
[00:01] <pochu> kees: btw, in case you hadn't seen it: http://www.coresecurity.com/content/vinagre-format-string
[00:01] <kees> pochu: ah, I hadn't.  thanks!
[00:02] <kees> pochu: though, strangely, still no CVE
[00:04] <RAOF> phix: As a work around you can probably edit /etc/pulse/default.pa and defining a static alsa sink using hw:0,3 - the comments should make it obvious how to do this.
[00:05] <pochu> kees: I think upstream confused that with a cve :)
[00:05] <pochu> kees: so no idea if there's one...
[00:06] <phix> RAOF: yes I tried that with no success, I will try again :\
[00:07] <phix> RAOF: VLC doesn't play anythin, I can't use totem as it crashes when I use ATI properitary drivers
[00:07] <kees> pochu: s'okay
[00:07] <phix> why am I finding all of the bugs for? :)
[00:07] <Riddell> MacSlow: http://www.kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/notifier.py
[00:08] <Riddell> http://www.kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/notifier.notifyrc
[00:08] <Riddell> that does into /usr/share/apps/kde4/notifier/
[00:35] <kees> pitti, slangasek: uhm, okay, where is libhttp-response-encoding-perl ?  I don't see a build and I don't see it in NEW...
[00:36] <slangasek> um... context?
[00:36] <slangasek> was this the sync you were waiting for a while ago?
[00:38] <kees> slangasek: it's related, yes
[00:38] <kees> slangasek: but it should have already been pulled in.
[00:38] <slangasek> hmm
[00:38] <kees> (it's a build-dep for the thing I was waiting on)
[00:38]  * Hobbsee wonders if that's a ppa bug, coming back to bite us
[00:39] <slangasek> kees: ok; looking
[00:39] <Hobbsee> seeing as LP doesn't seem to know about a source.
[00:39] <kees> slangasek: cool.  mostly I just don't know where it might be hiding.
[00:39] <kees> Hobbsee: it seems to know it exists, but without any files.
[00:40] <Hobbsee> kees: that's why I suspect it's the ppa bug
[00:40] <kees> aaah
[00:40] <Hobbsee> kees: ppas were creating those pages for any new source that was uploaded to a ppa, as a package in ubuntu
[00:41] <Hobbsee> but never had sources attached to them, as the sources weren't actually in ubuntu.
[00:41] <kees> Hobbsee: yucky.  this package _should_ exist in Ubuntu, but ... I don't know where.  It would have been NEW on Nov 28.
[00:41] <kees> (assuming a debian-sync was run then)
[00:41] <Hobbsee> while they fixed the bug, i don't think they ever removed the pages that shouldn't ahve been generated.
[00:42] <Hobbsee> i presume slangasek will try to resync it
[00:42] <slangasek> yes, currently trying
[00:42] <slangasek> since I didn't do archive admin duties yesterday anyway :)
[00:48] <pwnguin> feisty's dead right?
[00:48] <nhandler_> Yes pwnguin
[00:48] <pwnguin> sigh, users...
[00:48] <nhandler_> It has reached its End of Life
[00:49] <pwnguin> heh
[00:49] <pwnguin> i was just thinking, if they sit on this for much longer
[00:49] <pwnguin> there wont be a good upgrade plan
[01:27] <tseliot> Riddell: we need to talk. Celeste knows why
[01:34] <Riddell> tseliot: that sounds worrying :)
[01:34] <Riddell> I'm in the desktop room
[01:35] <slangasek> doko: is gcc-spu meant to be in main instead of universe? (newlib dep-wait on powerpc)
[01:35] <slangasek> kees: ^^ newlib is the package going a little funny during the autosync
[01:35] <slangasek> so I'm following through on that, maybe it fixes us
[01:36] <ScottK> slangasek: If you've still got your archive-admin hat on, I'd appreciate it if you'd also sync mlt++ (Bug 306257)
[01:37] <StevenK> I think mlt is still in NEW
[01:37] <doko> sladen: yes please
[01:37] <slangasek> StevenK: mlt didn't just FTBFS on all archs?  That's where it was last I'd looked
[01:38] <StevenK> It got given back on lpia
[01:38] <slangasek> and it succeeded?
[01:38] <tseliot> Riddell: so am I, I hadn't noticed. No, it's nothing to worry about
[01:39] <slangasek> doko: fixed
[01:40] <Riddell> oh aye, there you are
[01:40] <slangasek> kees: bah, have to wait for a publishing run to be sure I know what's going on there
[01:40] <StevenK> slangasek: I think it should be given-back everywhere, since it was Build-Depends things
[01:41] <TheMuso> crimsun: Did you attach the pulseaudio jaunty debdiff to bug 202089?
[01:41] <ScottK> mlt built on i386 and amd64
[01:41] <crimsun> TheMuso: no, I can do that now (it's also in my ppa)
[01:41] <slangasek> StevenK, ScottK: ah, ok
[01:41] <ScottK> StevenK: mlt is out of New and built at least on amd64 and ii386
[01:41] <TheMuso> crimsun: No need, I'll fetch from your PPA.
[01:41] <crimsun> TheMuso: ok.
[01:41] <slangasek> thanks, I'll take mlt off my to-be-followed-up list :)
[01:41]  * ScottK knew he'd done a test build somehow
[01:42] <kees> slangasek: cool, I'm not in a rush, just deeply curious.  thanks for digging.  did you see doko's mis-tab?
[01:42] <kees> slangasek: oh, you did, I can't read
[01:42] <slangasek> :-)
[01:42] <StevenK> I was ignoring mlt since it hadn't built everywhere
[01:42] <doko> oops
[01:47] <slangasek> ScottK: looking now, but there are some other requests ahead of that one in the queue so it'll be a few minutes to churn through them
[02:01] <slangasek> ScottK: doh, out of time and not there yet, will pick it up after heading back to the hotel
[02:23] <candrews> I'm trying to convince XBMC to use dynamic linking instead of including all the source in their own tree and compiling everything in. Can anyone point me to a policy of Ubuntu, Debian, or another distro that demonstrated why dynamic linking is important?
[02:23] <jdong> candrews: does XBMC use some ffmpeg type stack?
[02:24] <candrews> they do, but they also include python, faad, pulseaudio, mplayer, and a whole lot more :-)
[02:24] <candrews> I totally understand ffmpeg being included, that situation is nuts.
[02:24] <jdong> yeah I was going to point out that they probably have a reason to do this with ABI-unstable multimedia stack
[02:24] <jdong> ffmpeg and faad I'd put on that list. mplayer possibly.
[02:24] <RAOF> s/ABI/API/ :(
[02:25] <jdong> but no excuse for Python or pulseaudio
[02:25] <jdong> RAOF: yeah, it's both :D
[02:25] <ScottK> candrews: http://people.redhat.com/drepper/no_static_linking.html
[02:25] <candrews> Here's the conversation if anyone is interested: http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?p=252592
[02:26] <candrews> It's driving me nuts - if I was a distro (like Ubuntu) I would never accept such a package...
[02:27] <ScottK> With PIE enabled would it even run?
[02:27] <jdong> only on i386 IIRC
[02:28] <candrews> sdl, mad, sqlite, hal, glew, boost, libjpeg, libpng are also statically included
[02:28] <candrews> there's way more too - it's like it's own distro
[02:28] <jdong> ok we'd absolutely not accept that.
[02:28] <jdong> it is basically its own distro.
[02:28] <jdong> but then again, I don't feel you should use distribution policies as a bullying tactic for changing the project...
[02:28] <jdong> that's a decision for the project to make
[02:29] <jdong> perhaps for their purpose they'd rather have a no-dependencies bundled distribution
[02:30] <candrews> What do you think though? If you were them and all...
[02:34] <jdong> well... if I were them I'd have two separate distributions.
[02:35] <jdong> I understand their motivation for an all-in-one build
[02:35] <jdong> but at the same time I understand why that's a horrible nightmare for distributions.
[02:35] <jdong> But, if I were them, I would be annoyed as hell if every 2 days someone came asking for the libraries to be de-bundled.
[02:35] <phix> RAOF: I finally got HDMI set as default auto device :D  but it should of done that by default as it was the only device there.
[02:36] <phix> auto = audio
[02:36] <jdong> in my opinion the correct thing to do here is for the packaging community to debundle the libraries themselves for the reasonable libraries to debundle
[02:36] <RAOF> phix: Right.  Which is why you should file a bug to document (a) your set up (b) what was wrong, and (c) how you fixed it, so we can possibly make it Just Work. :)
[02:37] <jdong> I'd probably leave mplayer and ffmpeg bundled because those have very version-specific bugs, quirks, and APIs and I'd rather not be introducing extra bugs by mutant hybrid compiles of their code :)
[02:37] <phix> RAOF: I will try :) but I am no expert in that area
[02:37] <RAOF> jdong: And then provide patches to the project, yes.
[02:37] <jdong> RAOF: right I was getting to that. Honest :)
[02:37] <phix> RAOF: What is your affilation with the ubuntu project if you don't mind me asking?
[02:37] <RAOF> phix: I'm a MOTU.
[02:37] <jdong> I was going to say that with time upstream will probably appreciate the work you're doing and you can happily merge your efforts as an integral part of upstream.
[02:37] <jdong> It's always good to do something productive/constructive instead of standing there whining, in the open source world.
[02:38] <phix> RAOF: I am not familiar with that acronym
[02:38] <jdong> phix: it means he's a scapegoat for not-very-maintained packages having bugs.
[02:38] <jdong> (joking)
[02:39] <candrews> jdong - indeed! But, I'm not that familiar with C, especially not on the sheer scale and complexity of that project... and their build system is very large and frankly scares me.
[02:40] <phix> candrews: heh, what is this?
[02:40] <jdong> candrews: the developers probably feel the same way about debundling.
[02:40] <jdong> candrews: hence why I suggested it's probably not productive to whine at upstream to debundle
[02:40] <candrews> phix xbmc
[02:40] <phix> I would like to contribute to the Ubuntu project, what can I do? :)
[02:40] <phix> candrews: no idea what that is :)
[02:40] <jdong> phix: you can start by doing my decision theory homework...
[02:40] <candrews> www.xbmc.org
[02:41] <phix> jdong: heh
[02:41]  * candrews cringes, and is quite glad he's out of college.
[02:41] <phix> ditto
[02:42] <phix> RAOF: Nice, a fellow Aussie
[03:48] <mnabil_> guys, i want to customize the live cd , i wanna change the kernel on it , any idea ?
[03:50] <mnabil_> guys really i got sick from the ubuntu livecd customization how to's  all failed with me, always the live cd drops the initramfs shell
[04:35] <MiladKhajavi> how can I create a repository with a pool directory?
[04:47] <cody-somerville> MiladKhajavi, reprepro
[04:50] <MiladKhajavi> cody-somerville: thank a lot
[05:16] <LaserJock> any gnome-app-install gurus happen to be around?
[08:25] <wgrant> doko: hppa should be on the main FTBFS list in about 15 minutes, I guess. LP is slow.
[08:52] <AtomicSpark> What is this?!
[11:40] <catmando> hey all
[11:40] <catmando> i think i've found a rather large bug that's somehow slipped thorugh the cracks
[11:40] <catmando> the 8.10 alternate cd never installs a bootloader
[13:07] <Sockan> hello
[14:12] <NCommander> bdmurray, ping
[14:14] <lionel> Ah NCommander :)
[14:15] <NCommander> morning lionel
[14:15] <lionel> Would you mind to approve this backport https://bugs..launchpad.net/hardy-backports/+bug/303265
[14:15] <lionel> it would unbreak hardy-backports for lightning users :)
[14:16] <NCommander> sure, I'll ack it
[14:16] <NCommander> As a side note
[14:16] <NCommander> Don't used confirmed in backport trackers
[14:17] <NCommander> That's a good wayt o make sure your bug isnt' seen :-)
[14:17] <lionel> rah, sorry. Second time I've done it :(
[14:17] <NCommander> Let me just test build this
[14:18] <lionel> NCommander: that beeing said, you use "In progress" when you approved it and waiting for backport for archive admin
[14:18] <NCommander> YEah
[14:18] <NCommander> DOn't ask, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either
[14:19] <lionel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports -> this say to put as "Confirmed" when built and tested...
[14:20] <NCommander> A backporters is supposed to do it
[14:20] <NCommander> s/s//g
[14:20] <NCommander> test building now
[14:21] <lionel> hum... that's not what I have observed in backports for some years, I think we should clarify this
[14:21] <lionel> (but that's not the topic today)
[14:21] <NCommander> Anyway, once it test builds, I'll ack it
[14:33] <Laney> I thought anyone could confirm, but only a backporter could approve it
 Anyway, once it test builds, I'll ack it
[15:16] <lionel> I'm a bit surprised by the fact that you can not a MOTU trust but somebody ack the lightning backport without even checking rdepends...
[15:16] <lionel> +trust
 Don't used confirmed in backport trackers <--- but https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports  says you should!
[15:21] <NCommander> I fail :-P
[15:41] <jdong> interesting that lightning backport caused so much trouble.
[15:41] <jdong> it would seem like from bug 220166 that it received a good deal of testing.
[15:41] <jdong> I guess nobody hit all the rdepends.
[15:42] <jdong> I am brainstorming on a prevu QA suite for backporting that tests installability, upgradability of a requested package and all its rdepends
[15:42] <lionel> jdong: if nobody use locales, it's not catched
[15:43] <lionel> jdong: my "pb" is that I opened the bug two weeks ago and we can not get this fixed
[15:43] <lionel> (more than things get broken, it's the game with backport)
[15:47] <jdong> NCommander: anything holding us back in your opinion on approving said backport?
[16:31] <tclineks> as far as i can tell io.py that is installed by python-stats breaks lxml.etree.parse
[16:31] <tclineks> makes it segfault
[16:38] <ruthgard> Greetings what is the esiest way to create a deb file from a binary?
[16:38] <jdong> from a binary?
[16:39] <ruthgard> I have a tomcat webapp that I want to make deb file from, I want it to depend on apache tomcat and to put a file in the conf/Catalina/localhost folder for the tomcat configuration.
[16:39] <ruthgard> the webapp is a .war file
[16:39] <jdong> Well the same way you make a deb from a source package
[16:40] <jdong> only you won't have a "build" target but only an install target
[16:41] <ruthgard> can you recomend any guide for creating a deb?
[16:42] <maxb> I think it's usually a mistake to look for "guides" that teach you to do a single operation without understanding it
[16:43] <maxb> Especially because people very seldom write them!
[16:43] <ruthgard> you are correct
[16:44] <maxb> Unfortunately I'm not immediately aware of the right doc to recommend for starting to learn deb packaging
[16:44] <maxb> It's something I've absorbed over time
[16:45] <ruthgard> I found an article about how to create a deb for debian, is there any difference with debian and ubuntu debs?
[16:45] <ruthgard> or are they the same?
[16:45] <ruthgard> I read something about creating a file called debian
[16:45] <maxb> very little, in general. In fact, very many Ubuntu packages are built from the Debian source, unmodified
[16:45] <ruthgard> sorry I mean directory
[16:46] <ruthgard> and in that file create controlfiles for how the deb should be assembled
[16:46] <maxb> In this case, the "debian" directory refers to the packaging system, rather than the distribution - i.e. yes, it's "debian" for ubuntu packages too
[16:47] <maxb> Oh, one key thing to know is that many of the details of the format of debian packages are specified in the "Debian Policy Manual" - despite the name, it contains a *lot* of material on packaging too
[16:49] <tormod> ruthgard: you want this: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/336
[16:51] <pitti> Good morning
[16:52] <pitti> kees: was the libhttp-response-encoding-pel issue resolved?
[16:58] <NCommander> StevenK, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/intrepid-backports/+bug/303245
[16:59] <kees> pitti: let me check, one moment
[17:00] <kees> pitti: no: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libhttp-response-encoding-perl
[17:00] <kees> pitti: slangasek had some theories and was letting soyuz settle before poking at it some more.
[17:01] <slangasek> kees: pitti: it's a bug in sync-sources, plain and simple; I need to have a look to see exactly where the bug is
[17:13] <StevenK> NCommander: Found it
[17:13] <NCommander> StevenK, where did it go?
[17:13] <StevenK> NCommander: I can't read, and grep can
[17:14] <ebroder> Is there documentation somewhere on the process for requesting a package get imported from Debian experimental?
[17:15] <ebroder> Like, I've seen wiki pages on DIF, but nothing on the Debian import itself
[17:16] <crimsun> ebroder: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess
[17:16] <ebroder> crimsun: Ah, thanks. I'll check that out
[17:17] <crimsun> ebroder: (there's also a tool in the ubuntu-dev-tools binary package called requestsync)
[17:17] <ebroder> Even better. I'll check that out, too
[17:19] <StevenK> NCommander: NEWed
[17:19] <NCommander> Thanks StevenK
[17:19] <NCommander> I appreciate it
[17:22] <ebroder> crimsun: Does requestsync assume that you want to sync from unstable?
[17:23] <crimsun> ebroder: yes, but see -d
[17:24] <ebroder> Hmm...that's not documented in my requestsync. New after Hardy?
[17:25] <crimsun> ebroder: yes, in intrepid
[17:27] <gicmo> mvo
[17:27] <gicmo> where is he
[17:28] <TheMuso> gicmo: He is currently in a session, and may or may not be online.
[17:28] <TheMuso> Since I can't see him on IRC, I'd say not.
[17:42] <ebroder> Any backporters around who could ACK LP #301302 and LP #305001 ?
[17:53] <Meztli-Xictli> hi
[18:14] <ScottK> ebroder: I'll have a look at the first one.
[18:14] <ScottK> ebroder: Why not 3.06-1 from Jaunty?
[18:15] <NCommander> hey ScottK
[18:15] <ScottK> Heya NCommander.
[18:15] <NCommander> ScottK, I just had a good talk with mvo on selective backports installation
[18:15] <ScottK> And ...
[18:15] <NCommander> ScottK, he'd be interested in extending APT to do what we want
[18:15] <ScottK> Excellent.
[18:16] <NCommander> (the base is there, libapt needs a write interface, and synaptic needs an interface)
[18:16] <joaopinto> how are you planning to support that ?
[18:16] <ScottK> NCommander: It'd probably be good to touch base with the bpo people too and see what they'd like.
[18:16] <NCommander> Well, one person showed up at my backports meeting
[18:16] <NCommander> (mvo showed, but had to run)
[18:17] <joaopinto> NCommander, do you have those ideas somewhere I can read  ?
[18:17] <NCommander> joaopinto, I posted it in a spec
[18:17] <NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backports/SelectiveInstallation#preview
[18:17] <ebroder> ScottK: No good reason. 3.06-1 should be fine
[18:18] <joaopinto> NCommander, checking, tks
[18:19] <jdong> NCommander: if you have mvo hostage there's something else I want to poke him about
[18:19] <NCommander> jdong, I'm eating lunch w/ him
[18:19] <jdong> NCommander: in the case when a backport causes a package to be uninstallable it'd be nice for APT / synaptic to fall back on the regular non-backported version if it is installable.
[18:22] <andersk> Is there an appropriate place to assign bugs in the Ubuntu APT archive itself, such as bug 201179?
[18:24] <Hobbsee> andersk: a mirror, or archive.ubuntu.com?
[18:24] <andersk> archive.ubuntu.com
[18:26] <Hobbsee> that's not what the bug says?
[18:26] <Hobbsee> us.archive.ubuntu.com is a mirror
[18:26] <Hobbsee> sorry, i was probably unclear
[18:26] <Hobbsee> andersk: ubuntu-mirror-admins, iirc.
[18:26] <andersk> archive.ubuntu.com has the same bug.
[18:27] <andersk> So this is not just a mirror problem.
[18:27] <Hobbsee> oh, so it is
[18:28] <Hobbsee> slangasek: where should https://launchpad.net/bugs/201179 get reassigned to, if it's wrong on a.u.c?
[18:31] <StevenK> Soyuz
[18:33] <andersk> Thanks.  I assigned it to Soyuz, can someone confirm?
[18:36] <btm> Are there any plans to pull multipath-tools from upstream or patch multipath-tools for an intrepid SRU to fix the API issues with udev? (LP #306723)
[18:38] <joaopinto> NCommander, I am not sure I got a clear understanding of the "Pinning dependencies" section, the text "Depends line which explicately pulls in the new version", means it will only pull the version if it's the dependency as a version requirement provided by the backports repos ?
[18:39] <NCommander> Right
[18:39] <NCommander> That means if we have a security fix in a backported library, we'd have to update its rdepends to pull it in unless the deps were pinned
[18:40] <joaopinto> so, unlike now, you must be sure that the package on backports have proper versions on the dependends, right ?
[18:40] <slangasek> Hobbsee: I don't have a better place for it than where it currently is :/
[18:40] <slangasek> Hobbsee: "ubuntu-archive is subscribed" is more meaningful than anything else, I fear
[18:41] <joaopinto> ok, got it
[18:43] <Hobbsee> slangasek: ah, so it's ubuntu-archive fixable?
[18:45] <joaopinto> NCommander, the implementation should be generic, so you can use this selectivity feature with PPAs or 3rd party repositories
[18:56] <ebroder> ScottK: Who is the comment on LP 301302 directed at? Me?
[18:56] <ebroder> Oh - did you want me to switch it to use pyyaml 3.06-1?
[18:56] <ScottK-laptop> ebroder: Yes and yes.
[18:56] <ebroder> Ok, cool - I'll check that now
[18:57] <ScottK-laptop> ebroder: You don't actually have to change anything for a no change backport.  Just build it locally, test that it installs and runs, and then say so in the bug.
[19:00] <lionel> Hi ScottK-laptop, could you have a look at #303265 please?
[19:04] <ScottK-laptop> lionel: Ack'ed.  It's up to the archive admins now.
[19:04] <slangasek> Hobbsee: should be, at least in coordination with soyuz
[19:05] <lionel> ScottK-laptop: thanks a lot!
[19:05] <Hobbsee> slangasek: oh good
[19:07] <ebroder> ScottK: I've updated LP 301302 - it does b/i/r on Hardy
[19:09]  * ScottK-laptop looks
[19:25] <ScottK-laptop> ebroder: Ack'ed now it's up to when an archive admin has time to process it.
[19:27] <ebroder> ScottK: Thanks a lot
[19:34] <Picklesworth> Oh my.... the synaptics driver is indented with tabs /and/ spaces, by the same person!
[19:34] <ScottK-laptop> doko: Is there some summary of yesterday's Python discussion written up somewhere?  I was trying to listen in, but could hear almost none of it.
[19:42] <doko> ScottK-laptop: just the blueprint
[19:54] <ScottK-laptop> doko: Thanks.  That's more than I knew before.
[20:09] <mnemo> im trying to build the gvfs backends package but I get this error --> http://rafb.net/p/RcDYTK61.html
[20:09] <mnemo> what am I doing wrong?
[20:09] <ebroder> mnemo: You don't have the build dependencies installed
[20:10] <mnemo> ok thanks
[20:10] <ebroder> You should build packages with something like dpkg-buildpackage or debuild - those will tell you if you're missing build deps
[20:10] <mnemo> ebroder: what is the exact command for building with these tools?
[20:11] <ebroder> With debuild, you can basically just run debuild. With dpkg-buildpackage, I think you want to do dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
[20:11] <mnemo> ebroder: ok thanks I will try those
[20:12] <ebroder> Both of them will attempt to GPG-sign packages, so you may want to add -us -uc to the command line args to keep them from doing that
[20:12] <ebroder> It'll error, but it's harmless
[20:12] <ebroder> (That is, it'll error if you don't pass -us -uc)
[20:12] <Hobbsee> apt-get build-deps packagename is also useful.
[20:13] <Hobbsee> sorry, build-dep
[20:15] <mnemo> Hobbsee: I know that one already, but thank you
[20:16] <Hobbsee> y/w
[20:33] <doko> tjaalton: please fix mesa, ftbfs on armel and lpia, causing build failures on other packages
[20:34] <tjaalton> doko: yes, ideas abou the problem?
[20:34] <tjaalton> +t
[20:35] <tjaalton> what to those archs share that makes it fail?
[20:35] <tjaalton> s/to/do/
[20:35] <doko> tjaalton: create a lpia chroot and check ...
[20:36] <tjaalton> doko: hmm ok
[20:37] <TheMuso> c
[20:39] <pitti> Keybuk: do you see a reason to not upgrade jaunty's udev to 130?
[20:39] <pitti> Keybuk: it's needed for latest DK-Power
[20:39] <Nafallo> Denmark!
[20:43] <pitti> Keybuk: in fact, current Devkit itself needs it already
[20:45] <mnemo> im building a package using "fakeroot debian/rules binary" and then I do "dpkg -i ..." etc.... but can I do the same and also get debug symbols built into the binary???
[20:46] <mok0> mnemo: man dh_strip
[20:46] <gicmo> aha! mnemo is here
[20:46] <gicmo> right at the time I am about to leave for lunch
[20:46] <mnemo> hey gicmo :)
[20:47] <mnemo> did you see the patch Peter Christoffersen attached?
[21:05] <lifeless> cr3: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/%7Echeckbox-dev/checkbox/trunk/+merges
[21:06] <lifeless> cr3: its odd that there isn't a ubuntu branch for this, which any ubuntu dev/motu can write to
[21:56] <andersk> I'm trying to get a new upstream version of OpenAFS into Jaunty so that it will work on the Jaunty kernel: LP bug #303122.  Have I done everything right to request sponsorship for this upload?
[21:57] <andersk> Sorry, LP bug #303112
[21:58] <jdong> lol at 303122
[22:01] <lionel> andersk: I had a look yesterday night. I wanted to give it more tests before uploading
[22:01] <lionel> andersk: how did you test it? server/client part?
[22:02] <andersk> After installing the openafs-client package, you run m-a a-i openafs to build and install the kernel module.  Then you should be able to /etc/init.d/openafs start and see a bunch of stuff in /afs.
[22:04] <lionel> andersk: looks ok for the client, but for the server
[22:05] <andersk> Hmm.  Testing the server is...complicated.
[22:05] <lionel> I know
[22:05] <lionel> but that would be cool to have some basic test for it
[22:06] <andersk> http://dietrichschroff.blogspot.com/2008/07/openafs-on-debian-configuration.html
[22:07] <lionel> andersk: yeah, I configured it once, but that's not an "easy" task
[22:08] <andersk> Possibly the /usr/sbin/afs-newcell makes this easier.
[22:09] <lionel> andersk: well, will continue my work on it. You bug is complete, there is no problem about it, just we are a bit slow processing
[22:09] <andersk> Great, thanks.
[22:09] <lionel> andersk: fell free to ping me again if it's not done over the week-end
[23:25] <bryce_> pitti: btw mdz is asking for you in the online services session (in the desktop room) if you're not otherwise occupied
[23:26] <seb128> bryce_: he's leading a language pack session with danilo
[23:27] <bryce_> seb128: thanks
[23:28] <gicmo> mnemo: hmm
[23:39] <tjaalton> doko: the mesa build problems are because lpia/armel don't have MAP_ANONYMOUS?
[23:39] <wgrant> doko: You ran away!
[23:40] <doko> wgrant: no, you did ;) anyway, meet in the lobby?
[23:40] <wgrant> doko: Bah, only for a moment. Which building?
[23:40] <doko> wgrant: coffe lobby
[23:41] <wgrant> Sure, I'll be there in a minute or so.
[23:41] <doko> $ fgrep -r MAP_ANONYMOUS /usr/include/
[23:41] <doko> /usr/include/bits/mman.h:# define MAP_ANONYMOUS 0x20            /* Don't use a file.  */
[23:41] <doko> /usr/include/bits/mman.h:# define MAP_ANON      MAP_ANONYMOUS
[23:41] <doko> /usr/include/asm-generic/mman.h:#define MAP_ANONYMOUS   0x20            /* don't use a file */
[23:42] <doko> tjaalton: ^^^
[23:42] <tjaalton> doko: so bits/mman.h, not sys/mman.h
[23:42] <doko> tjaalton: did you check on lpia?
[23:42] <tjaalton> doko: nope
[23:43] <tjaalton> but x86 has sys/mman.h
[23:44] <tjaalton> doko: I'll try the chroot
[23:55] <tjaalton> doko: no match for lpia
[23:55] <tjaalton> oh wait
[23:57] <tjaalton> doko: right, better to install libc6-dev before checking that. anyway, it's the same as with armel, so mesa should be patched to check bits/
[23:58] <\sh> grmpf...why is the updated hardy kernel build with 4.2.3 but on upgraded hardy there is gcc 4.2.4?
[23:59] <tjaalton> doko: sorry, bits/mman.h is included by sys/mman.h, so it's something different then


[00:26] <lickalott> has anyone ever tried to install 2x WinTV 150 cards on mythbuntu?  Can you give me any pointers?  I can get one to show up (record from DVR) but the other one (play live TV) isn't being "seen".
[04:17] <tgm4883> lickalott, did you set up multiple cards in mythtv setup?
[04:17] <tgm4883> I haven't done it in quite a while
[21:56] <lautriv> anyone around who successfully installed mdd on a frontend ?
[22:01] <rhpot1991> mdd?
[22:03] <mrand> mythdroid, I assume?
[22:08] <lautriv> mrand, yes the perl-part on front/backend
[23:31] <Seeker`> what time do the ppa builds happen?
[23:31] <Shadow__X> compilin time
[23:32] <Seeker`> ...
[23:33] <dekarl> Seeker`: see https://launchpad.net/~mythbuntu/+archive/0.25
[23:33] <Zinn> [launchpad.net] 0.25 : 芒聙聹Mythbuntu Developers芒聙聺 team
[23:33] <Shadow__X> .25 hasnt been released yet though right
[23:33] <Seeker`> bout an hours time then
[23:34] <Seeker`> Shadow__X: no, it hasn't
[23:34] <Seeker`> it is the development version
[23:34] <dekarl> hm, then try https://launchpad.net/~mythbuntu/+archive/0.24 ;)
[23:34] <Zinn> [launchpad.net] 0.24 : 芒聙聹Mythbuntu Developers芒聙聺 team
[23:34] <Seeker`> its the 0.25 one that interests me :)
[23:35] <Seeker`> thanks dekarl
[23:35] <Shadow__X> its a dev build though and unless you have a specific reason to you shouldnt run it
[23:35] <Shadow__X> you will not get support from the mythtv team because its not a release build
[23:37] <Seeker`> Shadow__X: Yeah, I want it to build so it'll (hopefully) update my backend schema, so I can run my own compiled trunk frontend so I can do some dev work
[23:37] <Shadow__X> oh ok :) carry on
[23:37] <dekarl> Seeker`: you can easily run your own build, even with custom patches, see http://mythbuntu.org/wiki/recipes
[23:37] <dekarl> Shadow__X: IUIC Seeker` is developing/testing some metadate stuff
[23:37] <Zinn> [mythbuntu.org] Recipes | Mythbuntu
[23:39] <Seeker`> dekarl: I want to keep my main FE/BE using the packages, because they are actually being used
[23:39] <Seeker`> I have another machine which I'm playing about with the code on. Worked fine yesterday, but I guess the DB schema was bumped in the last 24 hours
[23:41] <dekarl> Seeker`: the links hints at how to build exactly the same packages as the PPA builds... so you can catch up between the PPA cycle... and you'll can seamlessly update back to the original PPA builds (will happen automatically on next update)
[23:45] <Seeker`> dekarl: might try it at the weekend. Can't spend too long screwing with the main system or I invoke girlfriendrage
[23:48] <dekarl> yeah, just wanted to point out how convenient that recipe is as you seem to be up to some tinkering ;)
[23:50] <Seeker`> spent the evening backup up DVDs instead
[23:52] <Shadow__X> what is iuic
[23:56] <dekarl> I made that one up (1am over here) tried to say: if I understand it correctly


[00:05] <Noldorin> no one :(
[00:31] <lifeless> Noldorin: its 1am or something for Jelmer
[00:31] <lifeless> Noldorin: and you were addressing your discussion to him, so its not surprising :)
[00:31] <Noldorin> lifeless: 1am is the middle of the day for me :)
[00:34] <fullermd> Best time to lay out and work on your startan.
[00:34] <Noldorin> startan?
[00:35] <fullermd> Well, with my skin, it's more of a starburn, but...
[00:35] <Noldorin> oh
[00:35] <Noldorin> heh
[01:11] <Noldorin> fullermd: what's the 'index' in bzr btw?
[08:16] <mgz> morning
[14:41] <abentley> mgz: jelmer wondered if maybe you'd take a look at this MP: https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/bzr/branch-store/+merge/115618
[14:46] <mgz> will have a look.
[14:46] <mgz> (relook)
[14:51] <abentley> mgz: ty.
[16:34] <pfsmorigo> hi, I want to understand the "branches" command. I just created a branch using "bzr branch repo1 repo2". If I execute "bzr branches", on both, will show the following message "* (default)". What this means?
[16:34] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: each of those directories has only one branch in it, the default branch
[16:35] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: so, how do I create another branchs in it?
[16:36] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: if you have a shared repository with multiple branches in it, they should show up in 'bzr branches'
[16:37] <jelmer> or you can create new colocated branches (in newer versions of bzr), by running "bzr branch . co:newbranch" or "bzr switch -b newbranch" (which will switch to the new branch too)
[16:44] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: the "co:" command doesnt worked by the second worked (at least the branch now have a new name)
[16:45] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: so, I have two options. create a directory copy using "bzr branch oldcopy newcopy" or this colocated option. I'm right?
[16:47] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: two directories for each branch or one for both, right?
[16:50] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: yes, and the one-directory-per-branch approach is used most commonly
[16:52] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: I was reading bzr use guide and there is just the "two directories" approach... http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/user-guide/organizing_branches.html
[16:52] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: colocated branches (multiple branches in a single directory) is still experimental, and therefore not yet documented or recommended
[16:52] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: hmm... now the parent branch is "."
[16:53] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: if you use the shared repository approach (which should be documented), "bzr branches" will report sibling branches
[17:25] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: how can I keep the default branch with the original parent branch?
[17:33] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: how do you mean?
[17:33] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: the parent branch is the branch that a particular branch was based off
[17:34] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: https://gist.github.com/753752177417d6c5b03c
[17:34] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: there isn't a default branch anymore...
[17:44] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: the defualt branch is like HEAD in git
[17:44] <jelmer> pfsmorigo: it's only shown if it isn't referring to one of the named colocated branches
[17:50] <pfsmorigo> jelmer: ok. I will read a bit more the help and test some commands. tks for the support!
[19:09] <leo2007> hello
[19:10] <mgrandi> hello
[19:11] <leo2007> what is the best way to move a commit (someone else's) from one branch to another?
[19:11] <leo2007> I need to backport a commit from emacs-trunk to emacs-24.
[19:11] <mgrandi> merging?
[19:12] <mgrandi> make another branch of the branch from emacs-trunk at the commit you want to move, then merge it into emacs24?
[19:24] <leo2007> sounds a bit too heavy for just one commit.
[19:26] <jelmer> leo2007: it sounds like you want to cherrypick a single commit ?
[19:26] <leo2007> jelmer: yes
[19:29] <leo2007> how to do that?
[19:30] <jelmer> leo2007: bzr merge -c REV-TO-CHERRYPICK BRANCH-TO-CHERRYPICK-FROM
[19:30] <jelmer> leo2007: bzr commit -m "Cherrypick REV-TO-CHERRYPICK"
[19:32] <mgrandi> so that just takes the diff/changes of that revision and merges that, rather then trying to merge the entire tree at that revision?
[19:33] <jelmer> mgrandi: yes
[19:35] <leo2007> jelmer: that seems to work but it didn't keep the authorship
[19:36] <jelmer> leo2007: right, it doesn't - you can use the --author argument to respecify the author
[19:37] <leo2007> a lot of hassle.
[19:38] <jelmer> leo2007: there is the 'bzr replay' command that's part of bzr-rewrite too, but it doesn't deal with conflict
[19:59] <luke-jr> Possible to get bzr to use diff3 for merge conflicts?
[19:59] <maxb> jelmer: Do you have an unpushed revision for lp:~jelmer/ubuntu/precise/bzr/2.5.1-sru for the -0ubuntu2 upload?
[19:59] <jelmer> luke-jr: bzr merge --diff3 ?
[19:59] <mgrandi>     --diff3             Merge using external diff3.
[19:59] <luke-jr> jelmer: I tried that, it doesn't seem to work
[20:00] <luke-jr> I still get non-diff3 conflicts
[20:00] <mgrandi> do you have diff3 installed?
[20:00] <luke-jr> yes
[20:00] <mgrandi> slash can it find it? (look in .bzr.log to see if it reported anything)
[20:00] <jelmer> luke-jr: ah, you mean diff3 as a command line utility?>
[20:00] <luke-jr> the log doesn't suggest it tried
[20:00] <jelmer> luke-jr: bzr merge --using=diff3 perhaps?
[20:01] <luke-jr> jelmer: I mean showing me TREE, common ancestor, and merging branch
[20:01] <jelmer> luke-jr: ah, --show-base will do that
[20:01] <luke-jr> aha
[20:02] <jelmer> maxb: lp:~jelmer/ubuntu/precise/bzr/2.5.1-sru was just for the -0ubuntu1
[20:02] <jelmer> I don't think I used UDD for the -0ubuntu2 upload
[20:08] <maxb> fair enough
[20:08] <maxb> just assessing how best to represent things in the ppa-oneiric branch
[20:54] <Noldorin> ooh, busy tonight :)
[20:56] <jelmer> hey Noldorin
[20:57] <Noldorin> heya
[20:57] <Noldorin> jelmer: was takign a look at some bzr-git stuff yesterday after you were gone
[20:57] <Noldorin> jelmer: i'm tempted to say the way forward is using bzr-fastimport actually
[20:57] <Noldorin> in combination with git import
[20:57] <Noldorin> and whatnot
[20:57] <Noldorin> it's quite versatile in fact
[20:57] <Noldorin> can be extended to hg and other VCSs too in fact
[20:58] <Noldorin> there are some derivative projects that do cool things actually
[20:58] <jelmer> Noldorin: bzr-fastimport is not bzr-git :)
[20:58] <Noldorin> jelmer: no but they can accomplish many of the same things ;)
[20:58] <Noldorin> this is my point
[20:59] <Noldorin> and bzr-fastimport has versatility on my side
[20:59] <Noldorin> just found out about it
[20:59] <Noldorin> but it seems like an interesting way to do various vcs-interop tasks.
[20:59] <jelmer> Noldorin: bzr-fastimport is mostly interesting if you're using git and want to interoperate with bzr
[21:00] <Noldorin> jelmer: it can be used to mirror branches both ways
[21:00] <Noldorin> it's bidirectional ability is very good actually
[21:00] <Noldorin> just saying :)
[21:02] <jelmer> Noldorin: git->bzr only works if you're importing into the same bzr branch you originally exported from
[21:11] <jelmer> Noldorin: so it's mostly useful if you're the only one using bzr, or if you're the only one merging from git
[21:11] <Noldorin> jelmer: it's good enough in the vast majority of cases
[21:12] <jelmer> Noldorin: depends on your use case
[21:12] <Noldorin> only for intricate cross bzr-git workflows do you need more
[21:12] <Noldorin> jelmer: well i've not seen one person lamenting the lack of features so far :)
[21:12] <Noldorin> more than enough for me
[21:12] <Noldorin> in fact
[21:12] <Noldorin> it's really nice
[21:12] <Noldorin> heh
[21:18] <jelmer> Noldorin: for e.g. contributing a simple fix for an existing git project, bzr-fastimport is suboptimal
[21:19] <Noldorin> you just use git for that :P
[21:19] <Noldorin> ha
[21:19] <Noldorin> no point using anything else
[21:19] <jelmer> you first have to clone the git repository, then git fast-export it, then bzr-fastimport it, then make your change, then bzr-fast-export your change and git-fast-import it
[21:19] <jelmer> Noldorin: That's the use case dpush was designed for
[21:19] <Noldorin> yeah but dpush is horribly broken as we know :)
[21:19] <Noldorin> https://github.com/alexreg/git-bzr-ng
[21:19] <Noldorin> really nice ^
[21:20] <Noldorin> simplifies import/export tasks
[21:20] <jelmer> Noldorin: dpush doesn't handle a few corner cases well
[21:20] <jelmer> Noldorin: but the same is true for bzr-fast-import
[21:20] <Noldorin> mate, stop calling them corner cases
[21:20] <Noldorin> w
[21:20] <Noldorin> e
[21:20] <Noldorin> we know that's not true
[21:20] <Noldorin> bzr-git fails on the bzr branch itself, and two of my branches
[21:20] <Noldorin> git-bzr-ng and fastimport works on all of them :)
[21:20] <Noldorin> it has to be said
[21:21] <jelmer> Noldorin: if you're just pushing one or two changes (and don't care about renames, since you're contributing to a git repo anyway) that's unlikely to matter
[21:21] <Noldorin> yeah but git-bzr-ng is just as easy
[21:21] <Noldorin> to be fair
[21:26] <jelmer> Noldorin: isn't git-bzr-ng a git plugin?
[21:27] <Noldorin> yep
[21:27] <Noldorin> so?
[21:28] <jelmer> Noldorin: if you're happy using the git executable and are storing your main code in git, what are you using bzr for?
[21:28] <Noldorin> haha
[21:28] <Noldorin> jelmer: no-one said anything about storing main code in git
[21:32] <jelmer> Noldorin: that doesn't make much sense to me, but okay
[21:32] <Noldorin> explain then
[21:32] <Noldorin> if you're confused
[21:33] <jelmer> Noldorin: that's okay, that bit doesn't really interest me; it's more the different approaches for exporting to git
[21:33] <Noldorin> jelmer: this *is* an approach for exporting to git :P
[21:38] <jelmer> Noldorin: it's the different approaches for exporting to git I'm interested in, not really on why your main branch is in the 2a format rather than in the git format
[21:38] <Noldorin> this is a different approach
[21:39] <Noldorin> so i don't get you
[21:39] <jelmer> Noldorin: anyway, I seem to be the de-facto maintainer for both bzr-fastimport and bzr-git; I just think bzr-git is the cleaner approach
[21:39] <Noldorin> yeah i saw that ;)
[21:39] <Noldorin> so it's not like i'm slagging off one over the other
[21:39] <Noldorin> fastimport just seems rather more reliable at htem oment
[21:39] <Noldorin> at the moment*
[21:39] <Noldorin> and indeed versatile
[21:41] <maxb> There are some rather perplexing test failures for bzr-builddeb in oneiric and natty :-/
[21:41] <jelmer> maxb: can you give an example?
[21:41] <maxb> IOError: [Errno 21] Is a directory: u'/tmp/testbzr-LexZzZ.tmp/bzrlib.plugins.builddeb.tests.test_util.TreeContainsUpstreamSourceTests.test_empty/work/.bzr/checkout/dirstate'
[21:41] <maxb> !
[21:42] <maxb> and some sort of treetransform fallout in natty:
[21:42] <maxb> OSError: [Errno 20] Not a directory: '/tmp/testbzr-kPYNe4.tmp/bzrlib.plugins.builddeb.tests.test_revspec.TestRevisionSpec_package.test_from_string_package/work/tree2/.bzr/checkout/limbo/new-1'
[21:43] <jelmer> that second one looks vaguely familiar
[21:43] <jelmer> maxb: I mean, the "Not a directory" bit looks vaguely familiar
[21:44] <jelmer> I'm afraid I don't remember specifics though :-/.
[21:44]  * maxb reviews some previous versions
[21:46] <maxb> The same test failed in a different way in the previous bzr-builddeb release on natty
[21:46] <maxb> and before that, a string of failures for other reasons
[21:48] <jelmer> I think it had something to do with tarballs or zip files
[21:48] <maxb> From the oneiric failure:
[21:48] <maxb> 101.551  trying to create missing lock '/tmp/testbzr-LexZzZ.tmp/bzrlib.plugins.builddeb.tests.test_util.TreeContainsUpstreamSourceTests.test_empty/work/.bzr/checkout/dirstate'
[21:48] <maxb> err... what? Something's amusingly confused there !
[21:57] <jelmer> urgh, yep :)
[21:59] <maxb> Hm, looks like the dulwich testsuite has hung on maverick & lucid too
[21:59] <maxb> There was I thinking this series of PPA updates was going OK
[22:03] <jelmer> maxb: that's probably one of the compat tests
[22:03] <jelmer> maxb: you might need a minimal version of git-core in order to be able to run it
[22:32] <Noldorin> jelmer: hmm is colocated stuff still in a separate plugin?
[22:32] <Noldorin> on the latest version i have on mac, i don't see it there
[22:41] <maxb> The bzr-builddeb failures are feeling like tests that don't properly support concurrency
[22:45] <maxb> Also these builds would be a lot faster if they didn't run the tests 4 times
[22:48] <Noldorin> lifeless: hye
[22:49] <Noldorin> lifeless: just saw http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/developers/colocated-branches.html…
[22:49] <Noldorin> lifeless: you may want to update that re: the branch separator… even though i prefer the simple ',' ;)
[23:12] <jelmer> Noldorin: it's in core, but only 2.6
[23:12] <Noldorin> ah right
[23:13] <Noldorin> jelmer: was just curious why it wasn't included as a default plugin in 2.5...
[23:13] <jelmer> Noldorin: bzr-colo is very different from the colocated branch support in the core
[23:13] <Noldorin> oh i see
[23:13] <Noldorin> how so, briefly?
[23:13] <jelmer> Noldorin: bzr-colo was designed to not depend on any changes to the core
[23:14] <jelmer> but it's a bit of a hack, it adds an entire new set of commands to deal with colocated branches and has more overhead than the native colocated branches
[23:15] <Noldorin> right
[23:15] <Noldorin> jelmer: not to worry. i presume colo branches will be adequately documented when 2.6 comes out :)
[23:16] <jelmer> Noldorin: note that the ocument you just linked to is the spec for colocated branches, not the user documentation
[23:16] <Noldorin> indeed
[23:17] <Noldorin> i knew that was just a whitepaper heh
[23:17] <Noldorin> jelmer: only thing i'm curious about… did you decide on the "," seperator (as in the spec) or ",branch=" as before?
[23:18] <jelmer> Noldorin: at the moment it's ",branch=foo"
[23:18] <Noldorin> oh
[23:18] <Noldorin> okay
[23:18] <jelmer> Noldorin: we decided to use that as it's the safer option
[23:18] <Noldorin> that's unfortunate… i'm sure you have a reason though
[23:18] <jelmer> it's always possible to add support for ",foo" in addition to ",branch=foo" later
[23:18] <Noldorin> indeed
[23:18] <Noldorin> that's true
[23:18] <jelmer> Noldorin: there are other situations in which you might want to use ,
[23:19] <jelmer> Noldorin: e.g. "file:///tmp/bzr,revision=43
[23:19] <jelmer> Noldorin: e.g. "file:///tmp/bzr,revision=43"
[23:19] <Noldorin> hmm, yeah
[23:19] <Noldorin> does that already work?
[23:20] <Noldorin> i would suggest file:///temp/bzr?r=43 is better
[23:20] <Noldorin> but fair enough
[23:20] <jelmer> Noldorin: what happens when things are nested?
[23:21] <Noldorin> like?
[23:21] <jelmer> Noldorin: if you hasve a bzr tree inside another bzr tree
[23:21] <Noldorin> ha
[23:21] <jelmer> you might want to specify the revision of the inner tree
[23:21] <Noldorin> then you've fucked up? ;)
[23:21] <jelmer> this is the reason we picked , - that's what's specified by std66 for per-path-element parameters
[23:21] <jelmer> Noldorin: also, ? is interpreted by shells and often can't be used without quoting i
[23:22] <Noldorin> fair enough
[23:22] <Noldorin> jelmer: so maybe simply ,b= and ,r= would be better
[23:22] <Noldorin> at least
[23:22] <Noldorin> a
[23:22] <Noldorin> s
[23:22] <Noldorin>  as aliases*
[23:22] <jelmer> Noldorin: those aliases can always be added later
[23:22] <Noldorin> yes that's what i just said
[23:22] <jelmer> Noldorin: also, that's a fair bit less readable
[23:22] <Noldorin> :P
[23:23] <Noldorin> jelmer: ah, but is readability the key here? to me, definitely not
[23:23] <Noldorin> succinctness is preferable
[23:23] <jelmer> Noldorin: to occasional bzr users coming across these for the first time
[23:23] <jelmer> Noldorin: another issue is whether "r" is going to be short for revno or for revid
[23:23] <Noldorin> yes but weigh it up against the verboity
[23:23] <Noldorin> verbosity
[23:23] <Noldorin> definitely worth considering
[23:24] <Noldorin> it shouldn't be dismissed quickly!
[23:24] <jelmer> Noldorin: let's worry about that when it actually becomes an issue - colocated branch support has to be finished first
[23:24] <Noldorin> i'm not worried
[23:24] <Noldorin> i'm just throwing ideas at you!
[23:24] <Noldorin> thought you might be grateful
[23:24] <Noldorin> *shrug*
[23:24] <jelmer> I'm not working on this stuff :)
[23:24] <Noldorin> jelmer: you replied to me :P
[23:25] <Noldorin> was initially at lifeless
[23:25] <Noldorin> but yeah
[23:25] <jelmer> Noldorin: you asked about my design considerations for colocated branches
[23:25] <Noldorin> either way is cool
[23:25] <jelmer> anyway, time for some sleep!
[23:25] <jelmer> g'night
[23:25] <Noldorin> yes, after lifeless was away
[23:25] <Noldorin> jelmer: you reply, you involve yourself! ;)
[23:26] <Noldorin> just try and be more receptive
[23:26] <Noldorin> bureaucracy is the downfall of all entreprises
[23:26] <Noldorin> after all
[23:26] <jelmer> Noldorin: what's bureucratic here?
[23:26] <Noldorin> i'll let you figure that out for yourself mate
[23:27]  * jelmer sighs
[23:27] <Noldorin> hah, go sleep on it or something
[23:27] <Noldorin> don't sigh
[23:27] <Noldorin> *think*
[23:27] <Noldorin> it's good.
[23:27] <jelmer> I don't care :)
[23:27] <jelmer> /me sleeps
[23:27] <Noldorin> good
[23:27] <Noldorin> then don't ask
[23:27] <Noldorin> else you'll give people conflicting views
[23:27] <Noldorin> *laughs*
[23:30]  * maxb looks at distro-info for the first time
[23:31]  * maxb boggles that anyone ever thought writing it in Haskell was a good idea
[23:45] <Noldorin> maxb: writing anything practical in haskell is probably a bad idea
[23:56] <stumbles> Hi, I'd like to copy a configuration file from a template whenever I make a new branch of a repository. Ideally the behaviour would be embedded in the repository itself, rather than my user configuration. Is this something I can do with a plugin?