[01:49] <Keybuk> mbiebl: did my bug reply make sense, btw?
[01:50] <mbiebl> Yes, I used the pristine tarball.
[01:50] <Keybuk> yeah, I decided that having logd parse /proc/cmdline was ill-advised
[01:50] <Keybuk> and once I worked that out, your behaviour was obvious
[01:50] <Keybuk> in the "no initrd, but quiet on command-line" variant, it couldn't read /proc/cmdline on start, so failed to chatty
[01:52] <mbiebl> You said, it's already fixed in the bzr branch?
[01:53] <Keybuk> yeah
[01:53] <Keybuk> I backed it out of bzr at the same time I backed it out of the ubuntu package
[01:53] <mbiebl> Maybe I'll give it a try then today ;-)
[01:53] <mbiebl> See if it works
[01:55] <mbiebl> Do you schedule the 0.3 release after edgy?
[01:56] <Keybuk> haven't got a planned release time for 0.3.0 yet
[01:56] <Keybuk> probably before edgy releases
[01:56] <Keybuk> but it won't go into edgy
[02:28] <Keybuk> I had planned that it would use new IPC code
[02:29] <Keybuk> but I'm tempted to release it earlier with just the new libnih
[02:29] <_ion> Perhaps the file deletion patch could be included without the "disabled stanza" part?
[02:31] <Keybuk> _ion: I wasn't completely convinced by the implementation of that patch
[02:31] <Keybuk> I had meant to chat to you about it, but that got lost somewhere in the fog of my brain :)
[02:32] <Keybuk> looking at it again, I think it was just the disabled stuff that looked wrong
[02:39] <Keybuk> (in particular, where the code was -- it made more sense to check for disabled only when entering the JOB_RUNNING state, then multiple checks elsewhere)
[02:44] <_ion> Another idea i had was creating one more goal, JOB_DELETE, and the state JOB_DELETING and let job_change_state handle the deletion completely. I haven't taken a look at the code recently, but i think that would remove the need for checks all over the place.
[02:46] <_ion> Would that make sense?
[02:48] <Keybuk> it may make sense, I'm not sure yet
[02:48] <Keybuk> I haven't fully understood the changes we've talked about to the state system yet


[00:03] <wolter> I think I got troy_s mad at me
[00:09] <godbyk> Oh? When? How?
[00:11] <wolter> Just now, I asked in the artwork channel how to change the emblem's position in an existing icon them. Next thing I know he told me to google something which didn't return relevant results, and then he just stopped talking even after I asked him something.
[00:11] <wolter> Now, I have not come here to wine or get you against him, just thought it would be funny to thorwil now that he pointed me to his blog a while ago.
[00:12] <wolter> But apparently hes not here anymore.
[00:12] <godbyk> Ah, maybe he just got distracted or something.
[00:28] <wolter> yeah, could be
[00:28] <wolter> but well, I wouldn't know
[01:02] <wolter> is there an agreement on how the headers should be capitalized
[01:03] <wolter> ?
[01:09] <godbyk> wolter: Apparently not.
[01:09] <godbyk> I noticed the other day that some are sentence-cased and others are title-cased.
[01:10] <godbyk> But we should decide on that and add a note to the style guide.
[01:12] <wolter> yes
[01:13] <wolter> I think sentence-case can be less annoying sometimes
[01:13] <wolter> But I think, as this is a book written in formal english, that all titles should be in title case
[01:14] <rachaelb> hi all! is there anything i can do to help with the manual?
[01:17] <godbyk> 'allo, rachaelb.  Are there any chapters that you're particularly interested in helping to write?  There is a to do list of sorts here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#To%20Do%20List  (Looks like I need to scratch a couple items off that list now).
[01:17] <godbyk> There are also some 'how to contribute' notes here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#Contributions
[01:18] <godbyk> Otherwise, in general, feel free to poke around and see how you'd like to contribute.
[01:18] <rachaelb> im just having a look now
[01:19] <rachaelb> i can remember how difficult it was at the beginning to get my head around linux lol
[01:19] <rachaelb> and the usual forum answer of "rtfm" isnt necessarily very helpful!
[01:19] <godbyk> Good -- you can help keep us in check!
[01:20] <godbyk> Sometimes it's hard to figure out what people have trouble with when they're just starting out.
[01:22] <rachaelb> sometime its hard to fiure out even when youve been using it for a few years :(
[01:24] <rachaelb> ok... well i've got some time on my hands for the next couple of months
[01:25] <godbyk> Cool.  You can also sign up for the mailing list and hang out in this IRC channel to get ideas of where to dive in.
[01:25] <rachaelb> id be quite happy to go thtough the incredibly unsexy aspects of indexing and providing a glossary if that helps
[01:25] <rachaelb> i cant imagine many people would volunteer for that!
[01:25] <godbyk> Heh.. probably not!
[01:26] <godbyk> Luckily, it's a pretty simple thing to do (well, the mechanics of it, at least).
[01:26] <rachaelb> i *turst* thats not a sexist comment :-/ lol!
[01:26] <godbyk> You just edit the .tex file, and add \index{indexme} someplace and it will automatically add an index entry and page number for indexme.
[01:27] <godbyk> I haven't set up the glossary yet; it's on my list of things to do.
[01:27] <rachaelb> ok well its pretty late here in the UK... so i'll sign up for the mailing list and be back in a few days if thats ok
[01:27] <godbyk> Sure thing!  Thanks for your help and hopefully we'll see you around.
[01:28] <rachaelb> no problem - im kinda bored with answering noob questions from friends and colleagues... a decent manual for the will be a relief!
[01:28] <wolter> godbyk, well, he was not mad haha, he just took a long rest.
[01:29] <godbyk> wolter: Ha! Well, that's good.
[01:29] <godbyk> rachaelb: I hear ya.  I have my parents, grandmother, and brother running Linux.  So if I can throw a book at them, all the better!
[01:30] <rachaelb> ok im part of the team :-D
[01:30] <rachaelb> well my mum is 81 and has been a complete convert for the last 4 years
[01:30] <godbyk> Nice!
[01:30] <rachaelb> and i read somewhere that "grandmas dont use linux".... try telling that to my mom
[01:31] <godbyk> It's certainly helped with all the 'how do I get this virus off my computer?' questions.
[01:31] <godbyk> My grandma uses it and loves it.
[01:31] <godbyk> Especially since her grandkids can't download worms from weird websites and slow down her computer.
[01:31] <rachaelb> once i set it all up for her, shes fine with it
[01:32] <rachaelb> she even understands the problems associated with the *other* o/s
[01:32] <rachaelb> and was thrilled when germany told people yesterday not to use ie cos of theproblems in china
[01:32] <rachaelb> and was telling her firends on the phone that this didnt affect her cos she used linux
[01:32] <godbyk> I think that Linux is a great solution for those who just use the Internet and email.
[01:33] <godbyk> Cheaper than OS X and more secure than Windows.
[01:33] <godbyk> My mom got a virus on her Windows netbook the other day.  But I've trained them not to pester me with Windows problems now.
[01:34] <rachaelb> prolly 4 the best
[01:34] <godbyk> If it's a Linux issue, I'll try to help.  If it's Windows, well, you're on your own!
[01:34] <godbyk> (Primarily, because I haven't used Windows in such a long time that I haven't a clue how to help anymore.)
[01:35] <rachaelb> its nice to find someone who will help... someimtes you go into an irc room with a legitimate question jsut to be told (basically) to f*** off and work it out for yoursel
[01:35] <rachaelb> thats not the way to make *nixes user friendly
[01:36] <godbyk> Definitely not.
[01:37] <godbyk> I figure the more quickly I can help someone else learn how to do something, the sooner they can start teaching the next person.  That means less work for me!  :-)
[01:38] <rachaelb> absolutely... ok ive sigend up for the referecing and glossary :-D
[01:38] <godbyk> Cool.  If you need help getting start with it, feel free to pester me sometime.
[01:39] <rachaelb> i will do - definitely
[01:39] <rachaelb> how detailed is this manual going to be?
[01:40] <godbyk> I'm not really sure.  I'm just helping out with the formatting and code bits, not writing anything myself at the moment.
[01:41] <roinator> This is probably a silly question, but is it already written?
[01:41] <godbyk> roinator: Nope, it's still being written.
[01:42] <roinator> Is there some sort of "current build"?
[01:42] <rachaelb> i mean while its fabulous to have anything as a beginners guide, unless it also covers non-ubuntu issues like installing codecs and how to use and install thrid party software then it will still not answer most noob questions
[01:42] <rachaelb> @roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yeas
[01:42] <manualbot> rachaelb: Error: "roinator:" is not a valid command.
[01:43] <rachaelb> roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yes
[01:43] <godbyk> roinator: I uploaded the latest PDF here for you: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[01:44] <roinator> Cheers...I'd like to contribute, but I am not sure if I can be of any use. I thought seeing what is currently done might be helpful.
[01:45] <godbyk> roinator: Sure!  Feel free to poke around and if you find something you'd like to help with, dive in!
[01:46] <godbyk> If you'd like to help write one of the chapters, you can find the assigned author/editor for that chapter and email him/her to discuss how you can contribute.
[01:46] <rachaelb> yikes! that needs a *lot* of work
[01:46] <godbyk> The chapter authors can be found under the appropriate blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[01:47] <godbyk> rachaelb: Yes, it does.  The project just started 2-3 weeks ago.
[01:47] <rachaelb> that explains it then
[01:47] <rachaelb> ok its nearly 2am here
[01:48] <rachaelb> and i really, really need to get some zzzzzzz's in
[01:48] <godbyk> rachaelb: Have a good night, then!
[01:48] <rachaelb> night all.... and to quote a certain state governor... "i'll be back"
[02:00] <wolter> godbyk, how can I link to other chapters in the standard way?
[02:00] <wolter> I tried \label{ch:troubleshooting} but it didn't work
[02:00] <godbyk> wolter: Use \ref{ch:troubleshooting} or \nameref{ch:troubleshooting}
[02:01] <godbyk> \label{blah} creates the linked-to point.
[02:01] <godbyk> \ref, \pageref, and \nameref create links that take you to that \label.
[02:02] <wolter> godbyk, could you make a standard \chaplink{chapter-name}
[02:03] <wolter> so that it says for example "Chapter 9: Troubleshooting"
[02:03] <wolter> in bold or something
[02:03] <godbyk> wolter: Sure, I can do that.
[02:03] <godbyk> one sec.
[02:03] <wolter> I use those a lot, and I think other writers should as well
[02:03] <wolter> thanks :)
[02:03] <roinator> godbyk: This looks pretty damn good.  I think I'll look into this more when I have a bit more time.  At the moment I have an overwhelming number of questions regarding the project, and I think I should make an effort to answer a few on my own before I ask any here.  Thanks for the help though.
[02:04] <godbyk> roinator: No problem.  If you have more questions, feel free to ask here or on the mailing list.
[02:05] <godbyk> Your best place to look for answers is currently the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/
[02:06] <godbyk> wolter: I just pushed the \chaplink command.
[02:06] <godbyk> Using \chaplink{ch:troubleshooting} will output "Chapter 0: Troubleshooting"
[02:07] <godbyk> brb
[02:11] <godbyk> back
[02:25] <wolter> thanks godbyk :)
[03:22] <wolter> godbyk, you're amazing :)
[03:22] <godbyk> heh, thanks.
[03:24] <wolter> I didn't know pdfs supported links
[03:31] <wolter> godbyk, i will let know to the list that you made this chaplink thing, alright?
[03:32] <wolter> but also, could you make it so that you don't have to write ch: ?
[03:35] <wolter> also, I see that the link only covers the chapter number and the chapter name, but clicking the preceding "Chapter" string does nothing
[03:40] <godbyk> brb
[03:52]  * humphreybc made a new ubuntu video today :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbi31mE3r0
[03:55] <godbyk> I'm back now.
[03:55] <godbyk> Sorry about the delay.  Was chatting with a friend who stopped by.
[04:00] <wolter> godbyk, dont worry :)
[04:23] <humphreybc> so what's new in the land of the manual?
[04:23] <wolter> humphreybc, the new version of chapter 5
[04:23] <wolter> take a look at the pull to see if you like it more
[04:23] <wolter> if not i will revert
[04:23] <humphreybc> cool
[04:24] <humphreybc> where did all the content go?
[04:24] <humphreybc> so you changed the colours of the sections/subsections?
[04:24] <wolter> to software-packaging/software-packaging-original.tex
[04:24] <wolter> i didn't
[04:24] <humphreybc> oh okay
[04:24] <humphreybc> so what's new?
[04:24] <wolter> its a complete rewrite
[04:25] <wolter> undone, of course
[04:25] <humphreybc> what was the reasoning for the rewrite?
[04:26] <wolter> well, i just read the ubuntu help center and thought that my approach was not straight enough
[04:26] <wolter> to that people that think that installing software in ubuntu is the worst part of.. ubuntu
[04:31] <godbyk> wolter: Okay, if you forget the ch: prefix on the label you pass to \chaplink, it will add it for you.
[04:32] <godbyk> Also, I've fixed it so that the entire string (including "Chapter") is a hyperlink.
[04:32] <humphreybc> wolter: fair enough, you're the author ;)
[04:32] <godbyk> I'm going to try to find a way to detect if a label exists so I can make the \chaplink command a bit smarter (i.e., not always prepend ch: if the naked label exists).
[04:32] <wolter> godbyk, can i say you're awesome again?
[04:32] <godbyk> In practice, however, please include the ch: prefix on chapter labels whenever you use them.
[04:33] <wolter> ok
[04:33] <wolter> will do then
[04:34] <nisshh> hey guys
[04:35] <godbyk> Hey, nisshh.
[04:35] <nisshh> im just getting back to writing my chapter now
[04:36] <wolter> humphreybc, how do you like my new version?
[04:36] <nisshh> but first i need to know what the hell is and isnt getting included in it
[04:36] <wolter> should I keep writing it, or continue with the other one?
[04:36] <humphreybc> nisshh: lol
[04:36] <humphreybc> fire some questions
[04:36] <nisshh> kk
[04:36] <humphreybc> wolter: looks good!
[04:37] <nisshh> what happened to some of chapter 6 being included?
[04:37] <nisshh> and is my chapter 7 now actaully chapter 8 or something?
[04:37] <nisshh> also what happened to cmd and security merging?
[04:39] <humphreybc> kk
[04:39] <humphreybc> cmd and security aren't merged anymore
[04:39] <humphreybc> your chapter 7 is still chapter 7
[04:39] <humphreybc> we decided to include updating/upgrading in the last chapter of the "first half"
[04:40] <humphreybc> instead of putting it in the advanced section
[04:40] <wolter> nisshh, wow you've been out a whole piece of time :)
[04:40] <humphreybc> haha
[04:40] <nisshh> ok good i understand more or less now
[04:40] <nisshh> wolter: yes thats what 4 holidays in a row does to you
[04:41] <wolter> oh yes i understand haha
[04:41] <wolter> it happened to me on christmas
[04:41] <wolter> and then on new year
[04:41] <nisshh> should i just go with whats currently in the ToC on the wiki
[04:42] <humphreybc> nisshh yes
[04:42] <nisshh> hehe ok
[04:42] <humphreybc> Unless you think there is anyhing to add/remove
[04:42] <nisshh> sure thing
[04:42] <humphreybc> oh and don't make it overly detailed - we are changing sort of to a Quick Start guide, so overall we need to watch page count. And the advanced stuff is least important to a new user
[04:43] <nisshh> is our irc chan working alright yet?
[04:43] <nisshh> yea ok
[04:43] <humphreybc> irc chan?
[04:43] <nisshh> yes
[04:44] <humphreybc> what do you mean?
[04:44] <nisshh> i saw the message on the mailing list about changing the channel for the meeting the other day
[04:45] <nisshh> due to problems with this one
[04:45] <humphreybc> oh right
[04:45] <humphreybc> we still dont have a logbot
[04:45] <humphreybc> but MootBot is back
[04:46] <humphreybc> They just left for some reason and never returned
[04:46] <nisshh> yep
[04:46] <wolter> humphreybc, how about ubuntulog, isn't he logging?
[04:46] <humphreybc> oh
[04:46] <humphreybc> didn't notice him! :P
[04:46] <humphreybc> roinator, for some reason youtube replies aren't working
[04:47] <humphreybc> the theme is elementary and the dock is docky :)
[04:47] <roinator> ahh ok...cool
[04:47] <nisshh> hehe
[04:47] <roinator> I didn't know you could make docky look like that.
[04:47] <humphreybc> it's not Gnome Do docky, but docky as a separate application
[04:47] <humphreybc> they're splitting them up, this is the development version
[04:47] <roinator> Ohhhhh
[04:47] <humphreybc> it's very neat
[04:48] <roinator> does it still do the gnome-do ish stuff?
[04:48] <nisshh> i think only the gnome-do version of docky does that
[04:48] <nisshh> the actual seperate version doesnt
[04:49] <nisshh> i think...
[04:49] <roinator> yeah...That would make sense, but I want a more variable appearance in gnome-do docky...so I was hoping.
[04:50] <godbyk> I documented the \chaplink command on the Style Guide.
[04:50] <nisshh> i need to read through all the new stuff on the styleguide now lol
[04:50] <nisshh> there is ALOT
[04:51] <humphreybc> roinator: It can't do the Gnome Do stuff but you can get it working with Zeitgeist and Gnome Activity Journal
[04:52] <godbyk> nisshh: Yeah, and I need to add more sometime.
[04:52] <humphreybc> And it has plugins like controlling banshee etc etc
[04:52] <godbyk> For instance, should chapter titles use title case or sentence case?
[04:52] <godbyk> How about sections and subheadings?
[04:53] <nisshh> title case i reckon
[04:55] <wolter> all kinds of headings should follow the same style in my opinion
[04:56] <nisshh> wolter: good point
[04:57] <wolter> that being title case :
[04:57] <wolter> )
[04:57] <wolter> as it is formal english the language we are writing in
[05:02] <humphreybc> I don't see a reason why we need to capitalize every word in headings
[05:03] <godbyk> I'm okay with it either way, but we should settle on one and be consistent.
[05:03] <godbyk> I think that sentence case is easier to read a bit more informal than title case.
[05:07] <godbyk> humphreybc: There was another discussion that took place earlier about establishing the tone of the manual.  How formal/informal should it be?  What kind of voice do we want to use?  Should it be staid and serious? Light and fun?  Quirky?
[05:13] <humphreybc> Somewhere in between?
[05:13] <humphreybc> We don't want to come across as Microsoft, boring and serious. But we don't want to come across as amateur. It needs to hold a "conversation" with the reader, and make them feel comfortable with what they're doing.
[05:13] <humphreybc> I think the tone that I set in the Prologue and Chapter 1 is fairly good
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> ooh.
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-Manual-Needs-You-Help-132478.shtml
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> this really helped the survey
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> we're at 674 responses
[05:23] <godbyk> cool
[05:24] <godbyk> Did we get more Windows/Mac users this time?
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> getting there
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> 42% windows so far
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> 40% ubuntu
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> need more mac users, grr.
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> i already tried asking in #macosx and ##windows
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> several times, in fact
[05:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> and asked my pal who works at Apple to spread the link
[05:27] <godbyk> Have any of you read any of Kathy Sierra's blog entries or essays?
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> i wonder if i can download the raw data and do my own segmentation analysis, so i can see specifically mac vs windows vs linux users' perspectives
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: no; link pls?
[05:28] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It'd be good to have the full dataset instead of just aggregate data.  Then we could do more in-depth analyses.
[05:29] <godbyk> http://headrush.typepad.com/
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw, holding steady at about a third wanting the ability to print out the manual
[05:29] <godbyk> A lot of what she says applies to our manual.
[05:30] <godbyk> We could also publish the book via Lulu (free to publish), and people could order a printed and bound copy of it, if they didn't want to print their own.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> yes, we could, and definitely think we should.
[05:32] <godbyk> I see no reason why we shouldn't.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> though at this point i think there is a risk we will not hit the deadline.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> there are a lot of early chapters with little progress
[05:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> but, thanks to you, the manual is starting to -look- professional :)
[05:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> re that blog, yeah, interesting. though i feel that a lot of her advice is pretty general
[05:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> not that it's necessarily self-evident, but that it's ... just good common sense. and not specific knowledge.
[05:36] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: A lot of it is, yeah.
[05:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> please digg: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Manual_Needs_Your_Help
[05:37] <godbyk> dugg
[05:50] <IlyaHaykinson_> i can't believe how many people read the news.softpedia.com page
[05:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> the link is more than half way down the page, under a Linux heading.
[05:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah. it's got a pretty high alexa rank
[05:57] <wolter> hm.. who is motang and why does he sound familiar?
[06:05] <nisshh> ill be gone for an hour or two, if anyone needs me just email me instead
[06:05] <wolter> it will be hard to live with docky and gnome-do as different apps
[06:06] <wolter> or memoserv
[06:06] <wolter> :)
[06:06] <wolter> nobody uses that, but me
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: email works just as well, imho :)
[06:09] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, yeah well, in my opinion i have enough emails with the ubuntu list :)
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> heh.
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, survey still ticking up. seems like we're at ~12 responses per hour.
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> which isn't bad. it means that if it lasts (and it won't, of course), we'd be at 1000 responses within a day.
[06:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> Ha! someone wants our manual to describe "applications towards the creation of giant space dinosaur robots" :-)
[06:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> we better get right on it
[06:32] <pererik87> most of them dont know about UHC
[07:10] <wolter> pererik87, you still here?
[07:12] <humphreybc> hehehe did you guys see the new artwork updates?
[07:12] <wolter> humphreybc, of the coverpage?
[07:12] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork
[07:13] <wolter> well you've been off for a long while I say
[07:15] <wolter> i have now
[07:15] <wolter> this kolorguild guy keeps working on new and new and new and new proposals
[07:15] <humphreybc> um regarding Lulu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1378816&page=3
[07:15] <humphreybc> post $24
[07:15] <humphreybc> #24 *
[07:16] <humphreybc> I know nothing about it
[07:16] <wolter> oh i irc-know that guy
[07:16] <wolter> lol
[07:16] <wolter> hes always in the #unity-coders channel i told you about
[07:17] <humphreybc> right
[07:19] <humphreybc> lol @ "We just made RTFM a whole lot better"
[07:20] <wolter> yeah
[07:20] <humphreybc> what do you guys think about KolorGuild's new proposals?
[07:20] <wolter> excellent photo manip
[07:20] <wolter> I think they're a bit off the style we want
[07:21] <humphreybc> true
[07:21] <humphreybc> but they're different, and interesting.
[07:21] <humphreybc> new ideas are good :)
[07:21] <wolter> well yes, thats true
[07:21] <humphreybc> it's going to be soo damn hard to choose one
[07:21] <wolter> but I think they're too cluttered up
[07:21] <wolter> yes, indeed
[07:22] <wolter> but I think everybody is going for vish's with my lynx :)
[07:22]  * humphreybc is reading the questionnaire thread and the latest responses. I'm very pleased that most of what is being suggested is already being planned for the manual :)
[07:22] <humphreybc> yup
[07:22] <wolter> kolorguild has good ideas, but I think he needs to comply a little more with the style
[07:22] <humphreybc> I think vish's could use some more work though
[07:22] <humphreybc> your lynx is fantastic though wotler
[07:22] <humphreybc> wolter*
[07:22] <wolter> thanks :)
[07:22] <humphreybc> it's too bad we can't get everyone together in a room to brainstorm
[07:22] <wolter> oh, don't you use tab completion for nickks?
[07:23] <wolter> yeah well, with the meeting's new time setting i think we could talk about it in a meeting
[07:23] <humphreybc> oh for christ sake I didn't realise pidgin supported it till now.
[07:23] <humphreybc> indeed
[07:23] <wolter> humphreybc, don't you think one meeting a week is very little?
[07:23] <wolter> supported what?
[07:23] <humphreybc> tab completion
[07:23] <humphreybc> too little?
[07:23] <wolter> oh haha
[07:23] <humphreybc> you mean we should have meetings more often!?
[07:23] <wolter> yeah, not often enough i mean
[07:23] <wolter> hahaha
[07:24] <wolter> well maybe twice a weak
[07:24] <humphreybc> !!
[07:24] <wolter> i mean, this thing is going fast
[07:24] <humphreybc> true
[07:24] <wolter> but its just an idea
[07:24] <humphreybc> but most things we decide on in IRC
[07:24] <wolter> what are your comments on it?
[07:24] <humphreybc> our team communication is amazing
[07:24] <humphreybc> there are always active discussions in IRC, the mailing list is always busy, the wiki is always being changed etc and we have proper meetings once a week. I think we talk more than any other project
[07:25] <wolter> I like this team a lot you know
[07:25] <humphreybc> haha so do I
[07:25] <humphreybc> our team is awesome
[07:25] <wolter> Nobody is like that typical linux-consumed dude that tries to make everyone else look like a fool
[07:25] <humphreybc> ?
[07:26] <wolter> haha, i guess you haven't been in many irc channels
[07:26] <humphreybc> not really
[07:26] <wolter> if you go to #linux or #c channel, you'll find plenty of those
[07:26] <wolter> sometimes you trigger they're anger without knowing
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: you missed it when i said it earlier, but the survey's picked up thanks to a news.softpedia.com mention and some diggs
[07:26] <wolter> just saying the wrong words will do
[07:26] <wolter> lol.. "some"
[07:26] <wolter> like 400!
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> currently at 717 responses
[07:27] <humphreybc> yep Ilya don't worry I scroll up and read what's been said :)
[07:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, nice
[07:27] <humphreybc> that's amazing, how are the stats looking?
[07:27] <humphreybc> any interesting trends that we haven't accounted for?
[07:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> good. short summary: need to cover software installation really well; printing; wireless and other networking
[07:27] <wolter> oh humphreybc, the graphics you showed in your video are based off the forum thread right?
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> open office for the apps
[07:28] <humphreybc> wolter: yeah it was the only usage example of spreadsheet i had lying around
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> as soon as we hit a thousand i'll prepare a good summary
[07:28] <wolter> Lol, I don't know what people don't understand about openoffice
[07:28] <humphreybc> fantastic work Ilya, truly well done. :)
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> and post that, as well as the raw data and the site's own summary data
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> interestingly there's little correlation so far between which OS people use and what they want to see in the manual
[07:29] <humphreybc> Well wolter I think it's more that OpenOffice is rather a large app with many settings, and it has three or more programs
[07:29] <humphreybc> awesome
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> except some thigns. like Windows people who've never used Ubuntu don't place a lot of value on covering printing
[07:29] <humphreybc> hmm that is interesting
[07:29] <wolter> well, it has like 5
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> but people who have used it rate printing pretty high (meaning they had trouble)
[07:29] <humphreybc> indeed
[07:29] <humphreybc> crap
[07:29] <humphreybc> what are we doing about Ch 4?
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think chapters 1, 2, and 4 are in trouble right now.
[07:30] <humphreybc> chapter 1?
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> that's installation, right?
[07:30] <humphreybc> yea
[07:30] <humphreybc> that's my chapter
[07:30] <humphreybc> alright maybe it's time I sent a motivational email to the ml
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> yup. you need to make some progress on it :-)
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> at the same time, i think that's an easier one
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> mainly because the ubuntu folks have done an excellent job making a guided installation wizard that takes care of a lot of problems.
[07:31] <humphreybc> true
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> mainly i think you need to a) pretend that you're a windows user, with a.1) a live CD in hand, a.2) a link to ubuntu.com and a blank CD-R disk
[07:32] <wolter> I could help on installation chapter
[07:32] <wolter> humphreybc, would you say I should rather continue my old chap5 or develop the new one?
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> b) walk them through the live cd process, and then theinstallation
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> step by step (screen by screen)
[07:32] <humphreybc> wolter perhaps help on chapter 4
[07:32] <humphreybc> yup
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: i think you have made some great progress on chap 5...
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> but i think it will need a lot more content still...
[07:33] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, with the new version of it?
[07:33] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, yes, indeed
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> yeah, i think the new version is a step in the right direction
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> but you need to get in depth on installing software using the software center, and make that your focus
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> there are a lot of people in the survey talking about software installation
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson_> i don't know if it's the majority or not -- it was in the fill-in response, so it's hard to quantify -- but packages and software center etc were frequent mentions
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson_> i recommend actually walking the user through the application, pretty much screen by screen, button-click by button-click
[07:35] <wolter> i think its the majority
[07:35] <wolter> at least thats all i read when I look at the thread
[07:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: chapter 4 is a big, big deal. i think you need to split it up between more like 4 people and have them start making serious progress.
[07:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: i mean the questionpro.com survey, with 700 responses
[07:35] <wolter> I don't know if we should provide a "In this chapter you will learn: <bullets>" in some chapters
[07:36] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, oh
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: no need to have the bullets, in my opinion. they will have that with the table of contents, if they need it.
[07:36] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, goood point :)
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: and people do a good job of scanning the headings even when looking at the chapter itself, anyway. people are good scrollers these days :)
[07:37] <IlyaHaykinson_> in general, and i don't mean to sound as alarmist as i might come off, i think we're not on track right now. we're 20 days from our alpha deadline when we're supposed to have most content written.
[07:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> i know that i've got my work cut out for me with chap3, and i -think- i'll finish or get close. but we need to be making close to a page a day progress on chapters 2 and 4 as well, for sure.
[07:38] <godbyk> When I published a book through lulu.com, I didn't put an ISBN on it, so I didn't encounter problems there.
[07:40] <godbyk> (Just catching up on the backlog of chatter here. :-))
[07:40] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, I agree. I'll finish off chapter 1 and start on chapter 4.
[07:40] <humphreybc> I'll need some help thoguh
[07:40] <godbyk> Do we want our screenshots to have captions?
[07:40] <humphreybc> yea
[07:40] <humphreybc> i think so
[07:40] <godbyk> (I'm going to make a \TODOscreenshot command or similar.)
[07:41] <humphreybc> we can steal stuff from the doc team wiki for chapter 4
[07:42] <humphreybc> do you guys think we should split chapter 4 up into two chapters?
[07:42] <godbyk> What license is the manual under?  (So I can toss together a copyright page.)
[07:43] <godbyk> I'm not sure what Preferences refers to, but it doesn't seem related to hardware.
[07:43] <humphreybc> Creative Commons Share Alike
[07:43] <godbyk> Some of the chapter titles are a little odd, too.
[07:43] <humphreybc> how do I do an internal chapter link now?
[07:43] <humphreybc> meh the chapter titles can be fine tuned later
[07:43] <godbyk> humphreybc: You can say \chaplink{ch:blah} and it'll print "Chapter 0: Blah"
[07:44] <humphreybc> and does that link to that chapter?
[07:44] <godbyk> Yeppers.
[07:44] <godbyk> It's magic -- it does everything! :-)
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> re chapter 4... i think we can keep it as one chapter for now, since a lot of hardware and preferences go hand in hand.
[07:45] <humphreybc> so I go "\chaplink{ch:learning-more} ?
[07:45] <godbyk> Exactly.
[07:45] <humphreybc> sweetbix
[07:45]  * humphreybc hacks on chapter 1
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> but i suggest reorganizing the chapter a bit... i guess we can do that once we figure out who'll be writing it.
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i suggest you don't touch chap4... between chap1 and other work on your plate, i think you've got your hands full.
[07:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> for now at least.
[07:46] <wolter> haha, godbyk could you make a fun-fact notecallout type of thing?
[07:46] <wolter> if you all agree, of course
[07:46] <godbyk> wolter: What kind of fun facts do you have?
[07:46] <humphreybc> hmm yeah Ilya that is probably wise advice. Who are we going to get to write chapter 4?
[07:46] <wolter> like "fun-fact: Deb packages are inherited from Debian: Ubuntu's father Linux distribution"
[07:47] <godbyk> At the moment, chapter 4 sounds like a catch-all.
[07:47] <wolter> well, maybe its not that important
[07:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, let's see how people respond to your email... if there's no constructive response within 24 hrs, i would put out a call for N people to help with it.
[07:47] <humphreybc> we can utilize the existing wiki docs for chapter 4
[07:47] <godbyk> wolter: I'd just mention it in a parenthetical comment, probably.
[07:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> some of the docs are OK. but i'm finding that a lot of the docs are not really all that helpful.
[07:47] <humphreybc> we aren't using much of their content thus far
[07:47] <humphreybc> true
[07:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> the networking docs were kind of like "1. open this screen (detailed explanation which screen). 2. enter the correct settings. 3. click OK"
[07:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> and a user would be like "wtf" to #2
[07:48] <humphreybc> true
[07:49] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, the updated make file doesn't seem to notice changes
[07:50] <godbyk> I haven't looked at much of the text of the manual so far, so this may be what's planned/done.. but it's probably handy to have a "How do I...?" type thing.. more task-oriented instead of application-oriented.
[07:50] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: for the applications, it's exactly that way
[07:50] <IlyaHaykinson_> see the suggested order of the chapter at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/DefaultApps
[07:51] <humphreybc> how's image insertion going
[07:51] <humphreybc> ?
[07:51] <humphreybc> do we have support for that yet?
[07:51] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: cool
[07:51] <godbyk> humphreybc: What images do you want to put in?
[07:52] <humphreybc> see chapter 1
[07:52] <humphreybc> just as a test image
[07:52] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: re: Makefile, yeah, it's not keyed to notice chapter changes atm.  I need to fix that.
[07:52] <godbyk> In fact, I'll do that now.
[07:52] <humphreybc> okay guys, tell me some cons of the LiveCD
[07:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: Short answer, is yeah, you can put in images.. Just do a \includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{blah.png}
[07:53] <humphreybc> for the "couple of things to keep in mind, however" part of that section
[07:53] <godbyk> longer answer depends on what exactly you want. :-)
[07:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: It's slow?
[07:53] <humphreybc> right
[07:53] <humphreybc> i've mentioned that
[07:53] <humphreybc> else?
[07:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> we need to do the same section planning to chap2, 4, and to some degree 5 (wolter, the new version still jumps around between the advanced (locks, apt, etc) and the core gui stuff with software center)
[07:54] <humphreybc> yeah 4 is all over the place
[07:54] <humphreybc> Ilya do you want to help with that
[07:54] <humphreybc> ?
[07:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i would say the main disadvantage is that you can't save changes, and thus can't test with all the latest updates or with non-default drivers
[07:55]  * humphreybc is downloading the lucid alpha 2 in test drive so he can install it
[07:55] <humphreybc> okay, now, disadvantages of using Wubi?
[07:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i will try to take a crack at the outline tomorrow.
[07:55]  * IlyaHaykinson_ never used Wubi...
[07:56] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, so you say I should avoid talking about apt and those things?
[07:57] <wolter> the subsection says its an insight, but I could get rid of it. However, i think the new users *have* to know, even if just a little, about what happens under the hod
[07:57] <wolter> hood*
[07:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: I wouldn't mention it at all. novices don't -need- to know, they just know that they hit the install button in the software center and there's a progress bar and the thing installs :)
[07:58] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, hm.. ok
[07:58] <wolter> I will ommit then :)
[07:58] <godbyk> Okay, I've updated (and pushed) the Makefile, so that if you edit a chapter, it will regen the pdf.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> maybe as a \advanced{}, during the discussion of Synaptic (which should itself be short, in my opinion, since novice users shouldn't need it very often), you can have a quick mention that there are other tools to install thigns like aptitude and apt, or something.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: thank you.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> quick question
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> what's the italics command?
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> i thought it was \textem... but clearly i'm wrong
[07:58] <wolter> \textit{}
[07:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah. thank wolter
[07:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: What are you using italics for?
[07:59] <godbyk> If it's for emphasis, use \emph{blah}.
[07:59] <wolter> so, what is the agreement on the heading format? sentence cased or title cased?
[07:59] <humphreybc> Test Drive lets you install Ubuntu right? It doesn't do it for you?
[07:59] <wolter> Test Drive?
[07:59] <humphreybc> Test Drive, it's a development project to make testing ubuntu versions easier
[08:00] <humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/testdrive
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, that's why i was thinking "em", it's the \emph.
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> if \emph is for italics, is there an equivalent "meaningful" command for bolding?
[08:00] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Nope, because bold should almost never be used.
[08:01] <wolter> brb
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> gotcha. except in our manual, with menu and appplication names etc
[08:01] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, but we have our own commands for formatting those.
[08:01] <godbyk> Authors should (probably) never have to use \textbf.
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> i know \application... is there one for menu options?
[08:01] <godbyk> Yep
[08:01] <humphreybc> wait
[08:02] <humphreybc> fill me in on these new commands?
[08:02] <humphreybc> why no \textbf?
[08:02] <godbyk> Er, maybe there isn't yet. Let me look
[08:02] <godbyk> So far I've made \button, \tab, \dropdown (for combo boxes I think), \nav for menus..
[08:02] <godbyk> What am I missing?
[08:03] <wolter> b
[08:03] <godbyk> (And the formatting for those may change, right now most of them are just equivalent to \textbf.)
[08:03] <wolter> godbyk, thats excellent work
[08:03] <godbyk> humphreybc: Because if we want to change the formatting of all buttons, for instance, we can.
[08:03] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: perfect. i think you also need one for a text field
[08:03] <wolter> godbyk, labels
[08:03] <wolter> godbyk, and terms
[08:03] <wolter> like, terms to define
[08:04] <humphreybc> wait where are we using buttons?
[08:04] <humphreybc> and drop down menus?
[08:04] <humphreybc> this is a PDF right?
[08:04] <godbyk> wolter: For terms, I think we'll incorporate it into a glossary, so I'll do something fancy there (codewise).
[08:04] <godbyk> humphreybc: Just to format the *names* of buttons.
[08:04] <wolter> godbyk, ok, but how should i emphasize new terms?
[08:04] <godbyk> Like: Click the \button{OK} button.
[08:05] <godbyk> wolter: For now, use \textit and I can fix it when I've written a new command.
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter is right. i need to mention things like DHCP
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> and right now i say \textbf{DHCP}
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> but would be nice to say \term{DHCP}
[08:05] <wolter> yeah :)
[08:05] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, I'll write a command to handle all that stuff.
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> also... let's have a \menuoption{}
[08:06] <humphreybc> all of this stuff needs to be documented somewhere and the authors need to be told
[08:06] <godbyk> The glossary stuff is a bit funky 'cause there was recently a new package written for that, but it's not in the TeXLive 2007 distribution (which is what you have installed in the Ubuntu repositories).
[08:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: another one: \checkbox
[08:06] <godbyk> humphreybc: I'm working on a style-guide.pdf so it's not barfed all over the wiki (and because it allows for better formatting).
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> does one need to escape ampersands?
[08:07] <godbyk> yes.
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> \&?
[08:07] <godbyk>  Use \&
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> thx
[08:07] <humphreybc> awesome
[08:08] <godbyk> Btw, I assume most authors are non-American?  But we're writing using American-style English, right?
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: this is in line with the ubuntu docs guidelines.
[08:09] <godbyk> That's cool.  I was just wondering for style-guide purposes.
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: another one should imho be \windowtitle{blah} which by default formats as ``blah''
[08:09] <humphreybc> are we using \button just for keyboard keys or for on screen buttons as well that are clicked?
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: \button is for on-screen button controls
[08:10] <godbyk> There are some details that non-Americans may be unaware of, that I can mention.  (Like punctuation and quotation marks.)
[08:10] <humphreybc> what are keys?
[08:10] <humphreybc> \key?
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> dunno if we have one. \userinput?
[08:10] <godbyk> There's a keystroke package we can use that makes them look like keys..
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> oh goodness. i think that would look horrible.
[08:10] <humphreybc> yea
[08:11] <humphreybc> that's not really necessary
[08:11] <godbyk> http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/keystroke/key-test.pdf
[08:11] <humphreybc> can you make a command for \keystroke or something so I can use that
[08:11] <godbyk> Yep
[08:11] <humphreybc> cool is it going to be called \keystroke?
[08:12]  * humphreybc finds himself having to use more than one workspace for the first time ever
[08:12] <wolter> whats the floating text block for defining terms?
[08:12] <godbyk> Just use the \notecallout[Definition]{Blah blah blah...} command for now.
[08:13] <godbyk> I still have to play with some things to get the glossary and term definition stuff working.
[08:13] <godbyk> humphreybc: \keystroke is good for key presses, yeah.  Like "Press \keystroke{Enter}."
[08:13] <humphreybc> neat
[08:14] <humphreybc> drop down boxes are?
[08:14] <godbyk> \dropdown
[08:14] <humphreybc> ok
[08:14] <wolter> godbyk, also a \section{} thing
[08:14] <wolter> to link to sections inside chapters
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok. i think i'm done for the night.
[08:14] <wolter> or mention
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> just pushed more wireless connection stuff... i think it's time to move on to firefox
[08:15] <wolter> maybe \seclink
[08:15] <godbyk> wolter: k
[08:16] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: in the makefile, can it be chaptername/*.tex as dependencies?
[08:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> for long chapters we're breaking them out as separate files per section, which means that the chapter file itself is like 5 lines long
[08:18] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure.
[08:18] <humphreybc> radio buttons?
[08:19] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, l8r folks.
[08:20] <godbyk> humphreybc: Oh, sure, after I just pushed! :-)
[08:21] <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, \radiobutton is there now, too.
[08:22] <godbyk> And with that, I'm gonna go to bed.
[08:22] <godbyk> If you have more stuff you want me to add, just note it here or email me at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:23] <humphreybc> Do you think it's a good idea to include the "specify manual partions" or should I just say that's for advanced users only?
[08:23] <godbyk> humphreybc: I'd include it.
[08:23] <humphreybc> the two options "Install Ubuntu side by side and choose at each startup" or "Erase entire disk" should be satisfactory for most?
[08:23] <godbyk> Especially for Windows users who want to run Windows and Linux side-by-side.
[08:24] <humphreybc> but won't the option automatically do that for em?
[08:24] <godbyk> humphreybc: Hmm.. Maybe.  I don't know how well the auto side-by-side option works, I guess.  That didn't exist when I started.
[08:24] <godbyk> The manual option is good if they don't want to give up as much (or as little) space as the auto option would choose.
[08:46] <humphreybc> godbyk, I just pushed it through but I think I broke it. Could you have a look?
[08:54] <wolter> godbyk, how do i link to a section?
[09:02] <humphreybc> oh wait godbyk has gone to bed
[09:04] <humphreybc> crap the whole thing is fairly broke
[09:05] <wolter> lol
[09:05] <wolter> what did you break?
[09:05] <wolter> i haven't downloaded your push
[09:08] <humphreybc> wolter, is there a subsubsubsection?
[09:09] <wolter> I think there is
[09:09] <wolter> but thats the lowest level
[09:09] <wolter> there is, but has no format
[09:09] <wolter> it looks like normal text, just checked.
[09:09] <humphreybc> dw fixed it
[09:09] <humphreybc> i'll push again in a sec
[09:12] <humphreybc> wow whoever has been working on chap 3 is doing awesome
[09:16] <humphreybc> tell me what you think about the work i've done on the installation chapter
[09:16] <humphreybc> dammit do you know how to separate things into a new line?
[09:16] <wolter> sorry, i was busy
[09:17] <wolter> what do you mean with that?
[09:18] <wolter> wow, thats a big chapter
[09:18] <wolter> and IlyaHaykinson is doing it as far as I know
[09:18] <wolter> Now, whoever is working on chap5 is making tremendous work too :)
[09:19] <humphreybc> haha
[09:19] <humphreybc> i mean like a line gap
[09:21] <humphreybc> for giving instructions
[09:21] <humphreybc> but when you don't want to use bullet points
[09:21] <humphreybc> or lists
[09:23] <wolter> Still don't understand very well
[09:23] <wolter> like a horizontal line?
[09:28] <humphreybc> kinda
[09:28] <humphreybc> just like typing something, then pressing enter twice
[09:28] <humphreybc> to insert a blank line to break things up
[09:31] <wolter> oh
[09:31] <wolter> i think it was \blank
[09:32] <wolter> I think that the author of command-line is not very fit to writing about it
[09:32] <wolter> anyway, bye humphreybc, I have too sleepp
[09:32] <wolter> jam session tomorrow with some friends :)
[09:32] <wolter> we're going to play "horse with no name - america", presumably
[09:34] <humphreybc> haha that's easy!
[09:38] <humphreybc> just pushed
[09:38] <humphreybc> you should pull and see the changes
[09:55] <humphreybc> Wolter did you try linking to a section?
[09:56] <humphreybc> Because something is broken now and it says on Page 17 which is your chapter :)
[10:23]  * humphreybc emailed some feedback from Martin Owens to the team
[10:38] <pererik87> was he the UHC guy
[10:38] <pererik87> ?
[17:35] <IlyaHaykinson> nice, the survey has 1036 respondents
[17:40] <p3t3r> one question:
[17:40] <p3t3r> Do we have to finish to translate this part of the manual before 11-02-10 or by this date?
[17:41] <dutchie> no, not by any means
[17:42] <dutchie> translate as much as you can, but at the moment, there are no hard translation deadlines
[17:46] <p3t3r> thanks :)
[17:46]  * dutchie goes for a shower
[17:55] <wolter> hey people
[19:26] <wolter> so, no activity?
[19:27] <dutchie> everyone's busy writing, not chatting
[19:27] <dutchie> ;)
[19:27] <wolter> haha
[19:28] <wolter> one can almost here the clacking of the keyboards
[19:31] <wolter> or not
[19:48] <humphreybc> lol
[19:49] <humphreybc> See the doc team might be moving to Mallard for Lucid
[19:49] <wolter> ah, thought so
[19:49] <humphreybc> They were concerned about the amount of comments on the Manual blog posts etc that suggested users didn't know anything about in built help
[19:49] <humphreybc> so they're trying to improve it drastically :)
[19:50] <humphreybc> Even if we haven't added anything to Ubuntu via the manual, we've still inadvertently managed to overhaul the docs :P
[19:50] <wolter> haha
[19:50] <humphreybc> b1ackcr0w, you need to seriously start working on your chapter :)
[19:50] <wolter> we will humphreybc... trust me
[19:50] <humphreybc> righto wolter, good thing I can count on you! xP
[19:57] <wolter> sure humphreybc
[20:02] <wolter> so humphreybc, will there be any documentation in building packages from source?
[20:02] <wolter> I think i have asked this already
[20:02] <wolter> but just want to re-check
[20:02] <dutchie> i'd say NO NO NO NO NO NO
[20:03] <wolter> ok
[20:03] <wolter> but i think it is worth to mention that building is *one* of the many methods in which one can get software in ubuntu
[20:03] <wolter> or not
[20:04] <dutchie> it's really not something we should advocate
[20:04] <dutchie> people's first port of call should be the software centre, not some random website offering tarballs
[20:08] <wolter> ok
[20:42] <b1ackcr0w> humphreybc: understood
[21:16] <humphreybc> wolter, no no
[21:16] <humphreybc> no building from source :)
[21:16] <humphreybc> software center software center software center
[21:17] <humphreybc> there are THOUSANDS of applications available there and i'm SURE someone can find what they're after
[21:24] <pererik87> SC SC SC SC SC
[21:35] <humphreybc> exactly
[22:21] <godbyk> Back home.     Installing new programs after reinstalling is going to go alot faster next time


[12:34] <pochu> slomo: uploaded at http://emilio.pozuelo.org/deb/ :) I've removed firefox.dpatch, so the delta with debian is small. Let me know if it's not a good idea ;)
[01:06] <pochu> I'm off to bed, cu folks!
[01:36] <DarkSun88> Notte a tutti
[02:30] <mattva01> hmm i'm a bit new to packaging and i have a question
[02:31] <mattva01> im packaging a python module using cdbs and when using pbuilder i get an error error: package directory 'distutils' does not exist
[02:33] <mattva01> are their any obvious reasons for that?
[02:43] <minghua> sounds like missing build dependency on python-dev
[02:44] <minghua> or something like that
[02:48] <mattva01> ok i'll check
[02:48] <mattva01> thanks
[02:55] <mattva01> ah think iv figured it out
[02:55] <mattva01> thanks
[03:07] <beuno> hello, anyone around who can answer me something about packages imported from Debian?
[03:08] <bddebian> We can try
[03:08] <beuno> I'm looking at this package: http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/k/kflickr/kflickr_0.7-0ubuntu1/changelog
[03:08] <beuno> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/k/kflickr/current/changelog
[03:09] <beuno> sorry, that's the link
[03:09] <bddebian> OK and?
[03:09] <beuno> it's 0.7-0 in Ubuntu, but it's been 0.7-1 in Debian for a while now
[03:09] <beuno> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/k/kflickr/current/changelog
[03:09] <beuno> why hasn't it been resynced?
[03:09] <bddebian> Probably came in to Ubuntu first
[03:09] <bddebian> Possibly different orig.tar.gz
[03:11] <persia> beuno: The two versions are roughly identical (this is usually the case with Debian foo-1, and ubuntu foo-0ubuntu1.  There are probably no improvements to sync.
[03:12] <bddebian> Heya persia
[03:12] <beuno> persia: and the decision to import or not is automatic or by the package maintainer in Ubuntu?
[03:12] <bddebian>  ubuntuX versions are never autosynced
[03:12] <persia> beuno: By MOTU generally.
[03:14] <beuno> right, so it hasn't been synced due to the MOTU deciding no major changes where made to it?
[03:14] <bddebian> Probably
[03:15] <beuno> great, that helps me understand it a lot, thanks bddebian, persia
[03:16] <beuno> I'm trying to revive the "Debian Collaboration Team", so I'm going to be hanging around here a lot  :D
[03:16] <bddebian> Great welcome
[03:17] <bddebian> persia: Damnit, I had a question for you today and I totally forgot it
[03:18] <persia> bddebian: That's OK.  You will be reminded if you upload a new gmsh :)
[03:18] <bddebian> URL?
[03:18] <beuno> I'm going to re-check the progress that's been made up to now and cook up some sort of roadmap, then I'll start recruiting volunteers  :D
[03:18] <Lathiat> siretart: *nod
[03:19] <persia> bddebian: bug #112973
[03:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 112973 in gmsh "Please merge gmsh 2.0.7-1 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/112973
[03:20] <beuno> persia: is there any documentation on how Debian syncs (both to and from) are working at the moment?
[03:21] <beuno> I've read many pages in the wiki, but none of them are too clear on it
[03:22] <RAOF> Sync *from* Ubuntu to Debian?  Does that happen at all?  We try to push patches up, but it would seem strange for the Debian repository to contain a package with a -xubuntuy version :)
[03:23] <persia> beuno: I haven't seen a really good page.  Basically, in the beginning of each cycle, Ubuntu imports everything from that doesn't have local changes, and Ubuntu developers merge those that have changes.  After the freeze, this stops until the next cycle.  When bugs are found that also apply to Debian, often Ubuntu developers will open a bug in the BTS, and will provide a patch if one is available in Ubuntu.
[03:23] <persia> RAOF: It's manual.  Take a look at packages.qa.debian.org for something with an ubuntu version.
[03:24] <beuno> persia: great, that helps a lot, and what about upstream versions imported into Ubuntu, does Debian get any diff or notification on that?
[03:26] <persia> beuno: For new upstreams, usually not (AFAIK), as the Debian maintainer may have reasons to keep the current version.  Some Ubuntu developers are also Debian developers, and so will absorb Ubuntu changes into Debian.
[03:28] <beuno> persia: right, that leads me to two questions then, can you think of any way to semi-automate the notifications to Debian for new Upstream versions in Ubuntu taking the same approach as with patches?
[03:29] <persia> beuno: There'S patches.ubuntu.com, and the interface on packages.qa.debian.org, but I'm not sure if most Debian maintainers would want too much automation.  You'd do better to track down some of the DCT or utnubu folk for detailed answers.
[03:30] <beuno> persia: it seems I'm heading up the DCT team now since it's been dead for months (got admin on the launchpad group), and I've recruited a DD to help me out on the Debian side
[03:30] <beuno> so basically now we're starting from scratch
[03:31] <persia> beuno: You probably want to get in touch with the utnubu team (http://utnubu.alioth.debian.org/).  They are the natural counterparty to DCT.
[03:31] <beuno> persia: great, will do
[03:32] <beuno> now, my second question, I'd like to document a bit on how a DD can become a MOTU to encourage DDs to help out on both ends
[03:33] <bddebian> It's usually extremely easy for DDs to become MOTUs
[03:33] <beuno> do you think a special process con be made for DDs?  considering they already know how to package  :D
[03:33] <persia> beuno: It's the same process as a regular MOTU, but it's easier to demonstrate packaging skills.    I only end of with the little leaves at the edges :)
[03:34] <beuno> that seems a bit of on over kill, no?   I mean, it makes the process for them very ahrd since they have to contribute in a substantial way to ubuntu first
[03:34] <bddebian> :-)
[03:35] <persia> beuno: As far as I know, although the Community Council is usually very happy to welcome DDs to Ubuntu.
[03:35] <bddebian> What would be the point if they don't want to contribute to Ubuntu?
[03:35] <beuno> bddebian: they will, by maintaining packages for Ubuntu as well
[03:36] <beuno> it just seems like a "chicken and egg situation" to me
[03:36] <persia> beuno: All MOTU means is the ability to upload to universe.  For their own package, a DD has that (usually), and when not, can usually contact any MOTU and get a sync.  The process is to ensure they want to be involved enough with Ubuntu that when the upload other packages, they'll watch the breakage.
[03:36] <beuno> and I'm trying to build bridges, and since I'll be going to debconf, I want to have some of this layed out beforehand
[03:37] <persia> beuno: The Community Council usually considers contribution to Debian to amount to contribution to Ubuntu, so if a DD can point to good work to improve Debian, that counts towards improving Ubuntu as well.
[03:38] <beuno> persia: that's good to know (I'm going to document all this for DDs to know), but I still feel that it's too burocratic, and that both parties might benefit a lot if DDs could become MOTUs easier
[03:39] <bddebian> beuno: What is your expected result?  If they can upload/update their packages to Debian, they will get synced, they really don't even need to touch Ubuntu unless they want to be involved?
[03:39] <beuno> consider that I'm just starting to get involved in this, so feel free to point out anything I'm approaching the wrong way
[03:40] <beuno> bddebian: the package I mentioned before is a good example, the DD has a newer version uploaded and an even newer one to upload (0.8), plus a bug that's been reported both in Debian and Ubuntu, she would like to upload it to Ubuntu as well as Debian
[03:41] <bddebian> If "she" uploads it to Debian, we will sync it
[03:41] <bddebian> We brought the newer upstream in August 2006.  They didn't bring it in until Feb of 2007
[03:42] <persia> beuno: 0.8 will be synced or merged soon after upload (as long as Ubuntu is not in a freeze)
[03:42] <bddebian> And foo-1 in Debian is not a newer version then foo-0ubunt1.    Is she not the package maintainer in Debian?
[03:43] <bddebian> We have no maintainers.
[03:44] <beuno> oh, well, it says that "Brandon Holtsclaw" is the uploader, so I assumed that he would have to check the diffs once the new package hits Debian
[03:45] <persia> beuno: The only work involved in a sync is the archive-admin marking it OK for sync.  MOTU doesn't have the ability to do that.  A sync is easier than parallel uploads, as then it only has to go into Debian in the future for automatic synchronisation.
[03:45] <bddebian> If she wants to ensure the newer version gets synced once she uploads it to Debian, she could file a bug on LP requesting a sync
[03:46] <beuno> persia: right, that helps me understand it better thanks
[03:46] <beuno> I'm trying to figure out a way to take advantage of the DDs that want to help with Ubuntu too
[03:47] <bddebian> I completely agree.  I am just asking in what way you are expecting that help?
[03:47] <bddebian> We would certainly welcome more MOTUs
[03:47] <beuno> I greatly appreciate both your time bddebian and persia, sorry for all the questions, I'm trying to have a complete picture on how things work
[03:48] <bddebian> No worries
[03:49] <beuno> and since I got a DD to take interest in this, I thought it would be a great opportunity to help get the team moving again
[03:49] <persia> beuno: If they want to help with their own packages, using launchpad to add Debian bugs to reported bugs, and request sync's would be great.  If they want to help with other packages, they should start by submitting patches, and following the process.
[03:49] <bddebian> :-)
[03:50] <bddebian> beuno: Trust me, Ubuntu tends to be much more inclusive than the Debian dev community.
[03:50] <beuno> ok, that's a good place to start, help associate Launchpad bugs with Debian bugs and mark them fixed and ask for syncing when fixed
[03:50] <bddebian> Not saying that we don't contribute enough back, that is still up for debate
[03:50] <beuno> bddebian: I've spend the last weeks surounded by Debian users/developers, so believe me, I know
[03:51] <bddebian> I wanted to be a DD for ages but got tired of getting abused.  Came here and wham, I started contributing.
[03:51] <persia> beuno: If you're up for serious effort, I believe the best way the DCT can help is to check all launchpad bugs against Debian, and make sure that if they apply to Debian, they are linked to Debian bugs, and that small, specific patches get back to Debian cleanly.  This is probably best done in collaboration with utnubu.
[03:53] <beuno> persia: I'm very serious about this, and I am willing to put a lot of effort into it, and that seems a very resonable way to start
[03:53] <beuno> once Debian bugs associated are marked as fixed, launchpad closes them as well, right?
[03:53] <persia> beuno: It'S 120,000 bugs :)
[03:54] <persia> beuno: LP closes them in Debian, but they aren't automatically closed in Ubuntu.  The subscribers to the Ubuntu bugs are notified.  For the packages I watch, I usually mark them Fix Released in Ubuntu when the next merge or sync happens (and I can see the bug is fixed).
[03:54] <bddebian> We can close the Debian bugs?
[03:56] <persia> bddebian: Anyone can.  Just send mail to to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>:)
[03:56] <bddebian> Is that a joke? :-)
[03:57] <bddebian> I mean the (Debian) bugs on LP
[03:57] <persia> bddebian: It's intended as a joke, but it works technically.  On the other hand, I wouldn't suggest closing Debian bugs unless they are really fixed in Debian.  Once the BTS closes, LP updates.
[03:58] <bddebian> Yeah, well I get tired of wading through them :-)
[03:59] <beuno> persia: in what cases does LP send the email to close a bug?
[03:59] <ASCIIGirl> persia, from BTS devel info "The person closing the bug, the person who submitted it" :-)
[03:59] <persia> bddebian: Unsubscribe, unless you want to be told when Debian fixes them.
[04:00] <bddebian> persia: I mean just when perusing some of the lists on LP.
[04:00] <persia> bddebian: That's a launchpad issue.  One hopes that the new Debian bug import system will make it easier to differentiate.
[04:01] <bddebian> I know it is :_)
[04:02] <persia> ASCIIGirl: My apologies, but I'm confused.  Looking at the BTS interface, I think foo-done@ should close from anyone (although submitter/maintainer are notified), as with closes foo to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Am I mistaken?
[04:02] <ASCIIGirl> persia, http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#closing
[04:04] <persia> ASCIIGirl: That's policy, not code.  That's the reason we don't close bugs: we're not supposed to do so.  The BTS accepts it anyway (and the Maintainer gets annoyed).
[04:04] <beuno> persia: so what's happening in practice?   is LP closing bugs or not?  if yes, do you have any exampls of this happening?
[04:05] <persia> bddebian: Thanks for gmsh.  Did you remember?
[04:06] <persia> beuno: bug #110788 is a good example of one that was fixed in Debian, and will soon be fixed in Ubuntu.
[04:06] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 110788 in scim "There should be a way to quit scim" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110788
[04:08] <beuno> persia: so bugs *are not* being closed in BTS automatically, right?  even though it's tecnically possibe
[04:08] <persia> beuno: bug #44734 is an example of the opposite behaviour
[04:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 44734 in electric ".desktop file" [Low,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/44734
[04:08] <persia> beuno: No: LP does not automatically close bugs in the BTS (see the policy link from ASCIIGirl).
[04:10] <bddebian> persia: Did I remember what?
[04:11] <persia> bddebian: You had a question for me, and had forgotten it.  I suggested an upload might help you remember, and I'm curious if I was correct.
[04:11] <beuno> persia: great, I'll start documenting and investigating all this, thanks a lot, you've been *extremely* helpful
[04:11] <mtaylor> anybody on here happen to be involved with kernel packages?
[04:11] <bddebian> Oh, no.  I ran across a couple of packages today.  One used libflaac and one wx2.4 but I'll be dammned if I can recall what they were
[04:11] <persia> beuno: Please also check with others also.  I may well be incorrect about some details.
[04:12] <beuno> persia: will triple check, but at least I can start writing this up and then go back and fix it
[04:12] <beuno> I'm off to eat something now, again, thanks a bunch!
[04:13] <minghua> persia: the scim bug is probably a bad example...
[04:13] <persia> bddebian: For libflac, all the binaries imported from feisty (except kwave and prokyon3 on sparc) have been rebuilt, so the transition may be ignored.  For wx2.4, everything left needs significant code changes.  I'm working on patches, but they should all go upstream and back down before application.
[04:13] <beuno> (I'll stick around, so if anything comes up, I'll read it later)
[04:13] <persia> minghua: Why?
[04:13] <minghua> scim has ubuntu-specific patch, so a merge is needed
[04:13] <bddebian> persia: OK
[04:13] <beuno> and of course, ASCIIGirl is a DD, so she might benefit from all this too
[04:14] <beuno> aaaand I'm off
[04:14] <bddebian> Later
[04:14] <ASCIIGirl> byebye beuno :)
[04:14] <minghua> persia: and from my experience, the merge of scim is rather slow, as nobody understands the ubuntu patch very well
[04:14] <persia> minghua: Ah.  Do you have an example for a sync?  I didn't see any in a quick search.
[04:15] <minghua> persia: not from the top of my head, sorry
[04:15] <persia> minghua: No worries.
[04:19] <mattva01> hmm i'm confused, i'm trying to install my package on another computer and it keeps asking for the build  dependencies (like python-support)
[04:23] <bddebian> Install shouldn't ask for build dependencies.  I assume you mean dependencies?
[04:27] <bddebian> Geeps, the patch for F.E.A.R. is 600 freakin Mb :-(
[04:34] <bddebian> jdong: You up?
[04:36] <jdong> bddebian: that's what she said?
[04:36] <bddebian> hrm
[04:36] <bddebian> jdong: You've done stuff with xserver-xgl?
[04:37] <jdong> bddebian: some....
[04:37] <TheMuso>  /c
[04:37] <bddebian> jdong: Ever seen/heard about bug #48404
[04:37] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 48404 in xserver-xgl "netbeans java app gui is blank in xgl and java5" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/48404
[04:38] <jdong> bddebian: only the most infamous Xgl limitation :D
[04:38] <bddebian> Oh yeah?
[04:38] <jdong> yep :(
[04:39] <jdong> it's a java+Xgl interaction
[04:39] <jdong> I don't know much more than that
[04:39] <jdong> other than there's apparently some workarounds you can export
[04:39] <bddebian> There's a patch for it on there ;-P
[04:39] <jdong> cool
[04:39] <bddebian> Crap, can someone please explain to me when we decide to do SRUs?
[04:39] <jdong> I don't know much about X server structures... so I don't feel qualified to do much with it :(
[04:39] <bddebian> jdong: Aye, me either really :-(
[04:41] <persia> bddebian: When it's really broken (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/SRU (when))
[04:41] <mattva01> bddebian: no the installer is def asking for the build dependencies
[04:43] <bddebian> persia: Thanks, that's what I thought.  I sure question some updates then. :-)
[04:43] <bddebian> So why the hell then do we keep any bugs open for packages against older distros, "supported" or not?
[04:45] <persia> bddebian: I think in this case, "supported" only means security & no data loss, although it's not always treated that way.  Look at Debian stable updates for a counterexample.
[04:48] <bddebian> Ha, nice, the bug is in Debian too:  Tags: patch; 1 year and 172 days old.
[04:55] <persia> Could anyone point me to a good resource on what's happening with tetex / texlive?
[04:57] <bddebian> texlive is replacing tetex in Debian afaiui
[04:58] <persia> bddebian: That's all I know as well.  ia64 didn't like gmsh, and I'm wondering if I have to adjust my build-deps.
[05:01] <micahcowan> persia, the switch had already happened in Debian, so you might want to google around for Debian threads related to the change.
[05:01] <persia> micahcowan: Thanks.
[05:02] <micahcowan> bddebian, bugs for older releases are generally closed out I think, if they qualify for neither SRU nor backport.
[05:02] <bddebian> micahcowan: Not from what I see :)
[05:02] <micahcowan> bddebian, I mean, when we come across them and notice :)
[05:03] <persia> bddebian: What's an example bug?
[05:03] <micahcowan> At least, I have seen bugs closed for that very reason. Assuming it no longer applies in the latest release/development release.
[05:04] <bddebian> persia: About half the bugs UUS is subscribed to :-)
[05:04] <micahcowan> :o
[05:05] <micahcowan> bddebian: So, they're bugs that are fixed in the current release?
[05:05] <bddebian> In some cases, no, I'm working on that.  But I know if I close them I will catch shit :-)
[05:08] <persia> bddebian: I'm not familiar enough with most of the bugs I found in the list to specifically comment, but in general, I see U-U-S bugs marked "Needs Info" when the patch is outdated, but the bug exists.  I generally mark bugs "Fix Released" as soon as the latest version in the repository no longer contains the bug.  I've only ever had one user comment, and they were happy with the response that version x.y-z contained the fix, an
[05:15] <bddebian> persia: Maybe I'm over-reacting, I dunno
[05:16] <bddebian> Just seems like we have a shitload of old bugs out there
[05:18] <persia> bddebian: I think it's partly because we don't have "maintainers".  I personally watch about 5 packages closely, and try to manage their bugs, but the more active people can't concentrate like that, and the bug list just gets too long.
[06:06] (zul/#ubuntu-motu) bluekuja: what about it?
[06:06] (bluekuja/#ubuntu-motu) zul: I pm you something
[06:58] <ScottK> Any suggestions on how to find out why a package got deleted?  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/amavisd-new depends on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libnet-perl and libnet-perl got removed?
[06:59] <lionel> check closed bugs
[06:59] <lionel> a general reason is "removed from Debian"
[07:00] <ScottK> lionel: Thanks.  Will do.
[07:00] <lionel> ScottK: np :)
[07:16] <ScottK> Well it looks like it got migrated into perl-modules, so no problem.  Thanks again.
[07:52] <jdong> someone say something in unicode :D
[07:55] <dothebart> in unicode
[07:55] <\sh> jdong: print u("")
[07:56] <beuno> espaol  :D
[07:57] <\sh> s ;)
[07:58] <jdong> excellent
[07:58] <jdong> thanks
[07:58] <jdong> now my freebsd is all unicode-happy :)
[07:58] <jdong> so I can see all those silly unicode smilies
[07:59] <\sh> freebsd? a new toy or just curious how a real OS is working ,-)
[08:00] <jdong> \sh: haha, a new toy... a 32MB FreeBSD VM on my home server for my persistent IRC sessions
[08:00] <jdong> and some educational purposes
[08:01] <jdong> I'm lovin it
[08:02] <\sh> well yeah, BSDi was my favorite in early internet days...
[08:03] <jdong> I am pleasantly surprised at how well it responds to me limiting its RAM so much
[08:04] <jdong> I would not expect Ubuntu cmdline to be able to build 3 packages at 32MB RAM and maintain some level of responsiveness
[08:08] <ScottK> jdong: Done - Bug #113665
[08:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 113665 in feisty-backports "Backport of pypolicyd-spf 0.3-1 to Feisty and Edgy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/113665
[08:09] <\sh> how do we do backports? just test if gutsy source  compiles on feisty/edgy?
[08:09] <\sh> I'll think to join backporters, too :)
[08:10] <jdong> ScottK: thanks
[08:10] <ScottK> Not a problem.
[08:10] <jdong> \sh: yep, pretty much, pbuilder compile, and then preferably try to run it and make sure it doesn't eat anything :)
[08:55] <_MMA_> Wow. http://symphonyos.com/cms/?cat=1 "Ubuntu 7.04 Base system"
[08:56] <\sh> Automatix 2 argl
[08:56] <_MMA_> yeah :(
[08:56] <\sh> every new release == new install of the customer
[08:56] <\sh> great ,->
[08:56] <\sh> "linux is so stupid, I need to reinstall every release"
[09:03] <xxxxx1> simphonyos? wth is that
[09:03] <xxxxx1> oops. symphonyos
[09:04] <xxxxx1> :/
[09:36] <\sh> siretart, pingeling....fai-kernels...question
[09:49] <DktrKranz> Adri2000, Lutin, around?
[09:50] <Adri2000> DktrKranz: yes
[09:50] <DktrKranz> I'm not sure if this has been reported already
[09:50] <DktrKranz> but take a look at these pages:
[09:50] <DktrKranz> http://dad.dunnewind.net/dolphin/
[09:51] <DktrKranz> http://merges.ubuntu.com/d/dolphin/
[09:51] <DktrKranz> you'll notice dolphin_0.8.1-0ubuntu2.patch is null, while MoM one is 57K
[09:51] <DktrKranz> this breaks sync process (as happened to me)
[09:52] <Lutin> is it the 0ubuntuX-only thing ?
[09:52] <Adri2000> DktrKranz: known problem.
[09:52] <Adri2000> Lutin: it is
[09:52] <\sh> DktrKranz, use merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
[09:52] <Adri2000> DktrKranz: it's on our TODO list and will be fixed asap
[09:52] <\sh> Adri2000, talk to keybuk (scott)
[09:52] <DktrKranz> ok, unluckily some of my syncs were published
[09:52] <Lutin> almost implemented actually ;)
[09:52] <DktrKranz> so I need to get ubuntu changes back
[09:52] <Adri2000> \sh: what for?
[09:53] <\sh> Adri2000, to join forces ,-)
[09:53] <\sh> he's the father of MoM ... and his mother is really pretty ,-)
[09:54] <Adri2000> I'm ok if they make MoM open-source, otherwise I can't work on it :)
[09:54] <\sh> Adri2000, http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/136-Its-Merging-Time.html .. well talk to scott...and ask him for help...he's good and knows some things ,-)
[09:55] <\sh> anyways..time to go out of the office
[10:31] <Ursinha> hi guys
[10:31] <Ursinha> i have a question about packaging
[10:33] <Ursinha> i need to repackage a metapackage, but i'm not the official maintainer
[10:34] <beuno> Ursinha: no reason for you to get sent to somewhere else unless it's a Debian package you are trying to repackage
[10:34] <Ursinha> thanks beuno :)
[10:35] <beuno> Ursinha: care to explain a bit more what you want to do?
[10:35] <Ursinha> it's simple
[10:35] <Ursinha> beuno, i have a metapackage of codecs, and i want to change one dependency
[10:36] <Ursinha> when i repackage with debuild, it runs lintian, and it says that i have to name it as a non-maintainer update
[10:36] <Ursinha> the original version is 0.8
[10:36] <Ursinha> my version, as a nmu, should be 0.8.1 or 0.8ubuntu1 or something, right?
[10:37] <Ursinha> but lintian complains, saying that is not the correct version number
[10:37] <beuno> that's a bit out of my league, but I'm sure someone else can help, bddebian?
[10:38] <afflux> 0.8-0ubuntu1 would be the right thing i think
[10:38] <Ursinha> if i version it simply 0.9, lintian complains too, saying that i should mention an nmu update, and that the version number is wrong
[10:38] <ScottK> NMU is a debian thing.  Don't worry about it here.
[10:38] <afflux> Ursinha: just ignore these warnungs about Nmu
[10:38] <Ursinha> afflux, hmmmm -0ubuntu1
[10:38] <Ursinha> afflux, can i just ignore them?
[10:39] <afflux> jep
[10:39] <Ursinha> i thought you at ubuntu care about all debian policy as much as they do
[10:39] <Ursinha> oh , okay
[10:39] <Ursinha> :)
[10:40] <Nafallo> Non-Maintainer Uploads becomes hard when you're not using the concept of Maintainers.
[10:40] <ScottK> Ursinha: There are some differences.
[10:40] <Ursinha> so which is the concept of ubuntu?
[10:40] <Ursinha> ScottK, where can i find about it?
[10:41] <ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField talks about it in part.
[10:41] <ScottK> In general, packages are team maintained in Ubuntu.
[10:41] <afflux> I'll go to bed. n8
[10:41] <ScottK> Good night.
[10:42] <Ursinha> night
[10:42] <Ursinha> oh, late
[10:42] <Ursinha> ScottK, i see
[10:44] <xxxxx1> bddebian: <o/
[10:45] <Ursinha> ScottK, thanks
[10:45] <bluefoxicy> James Bunnell (jamesbunnell) added Contributors of packages for ubuntu universe (ubuntu-universe-contributors) (which you are a member of) as a member of Ubuntu New Mexico Team (ubuntu-newmexico).
[10:46] <bluefoxicy> <-- has no idea where new mexico is, aside from that it's somewhere west.. maybe middle of the US or closer to the west coast
[10:46] <ScottK> Yes and a bunch of other teams too.
[10:46] <Nafallo> ehrm
[10:46] <ScottK> He has no e-mail address on his LP profile either.
[10:47] <bluefoxicy> but apparently I'm in team new drunk-lazy-corona-vacation
[10:47] <Nafallo> how can what looks like a LoCo be a packagingteam? :-)
[10:47] <ScottK> It's not.
[10:47] <ScottK> Someone should go smack him.
[10:48] <bddebian> xxxxx1: ?
[10:48] <crimsun> bddebian: I think that's a "hello"
[10:48] <bddebian> Ahh :-)
[10:49] <\sh> re
[10:49] <crimsun> my ascii art interpretation may be off, though
[10:49] <Nafallo> I think it's a call for help :-)
[10:49] <xxxxx1> bddebian: hello
[10:49] <bddebian> Hello xxxxx1
[10:55] <ScottK> bluefoxicy: It's getting fixed on #launchpad right now.
[11:01] <\sh> k...going to bed...good night motus :)
[11:02] <pochu> night \sh_away
[11:12] <crimsun> bluekuja: which?
[11:13] <bluekuja> crimsun, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ivtv/+bug/113696
[11:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 113696 in ivtv "merge ivtv 0.10 .1 from debian unstable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]
[11:14] <crimsun> bluekuja: did you work with Mario on it?
[11:14] <bluekuja> crimsun, nope
[11:14] <jmg> bluekuja: how about luigi?
[11:15] <bluekuja> there were only 2 conflicts to be solved
[11:15] <bluekuja> jmg: lol
[11:15] <crimsun> bluekuja: superm1 (aka Mario Limonciello, #ubuntu-mythtv) should ACK it
[11:16] <crimsun> (I'm not familiar w/ the mythtv codebase)
[11:16] <bluekuja> crimsun, k gonna pm him when online
[11:16] <bluekuja> crimsun, tnx ;)
[11:17] <crimsun> np
[11:21] <xxxxx1> bye all
[11:21] <ScottK> Bye
[11:22] <bddebian> Later xxxxx1
[12:09] <TheMuso> Hey MOTUs.
[12:11] <nixternal> don't forget us MOTUwannabes as well ;)
[12:11] <TheMuso> Yeah I should change my greting then.
[12:12] <pochu> hey TheMuso


[01:25] <Dre> hello. I have been using windows and just windows. I would like to know if ubuntu is suitable for a newbie like me to learn the ropes of making a webserver, nameserver and other hosting services. In need of help thank you..
[09:49] <hunger> Keybuk: That works after the system is up.
[09:49] <hunger> Keybuk: But the kernel expects /dev/mapper/$VG-$LV.
[09:50] <hunger> Damn... wrong channel again!
[03:13] <dereks> hello. have you guys seen freenas? Is the goal of ubuntu-server to make a distro like freenas (obviously linux not bsd) in terms of how well everything is integrated and ease of use?
[05:49] <spike> hi guys
[05:50] <infinity> dereks: Not really, no.  (Well, Ubuntu in general is well integrated anyway, but ubuntu-server is targetted currently at the datacentre and hosting provider types, more than "all in one appliances")
[05:50] <infinity> Though, people could easily use ubuntu-server as a base to create a greate distro for appliances.
[05:50] <dereks> infinity: ok
[05:51] <dereks> i really like that project, just wish i knew bsd enough to truely use it :)
[05:51] <dereks> maybe there will be an ubuntu-nas offshoot