[01:30] <gothicfre670> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL<PHONE_NUMBER> #LRH EFNETgllvq: dreamon spyke581 mcs_ torv dixie7z_ n5pwp GridCube Zeioth sary Hund bazhang ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
[05:54] <Chromelon> hello there! I'm having an issue with getting conky to work
[05:54] <Chromelon> i'm using conky manager with the teejeetech themes and idk why they're not working properly
[05:54] <Chromelon> they should look like this: https://i.imgur.com/1c43f0C.png
[05:55] <Chromelon> but they look like this: http://i.imgur.com/CQPmw86.png
[08:48] <moetunes> Chromelon:  have you tried starting conky from a terminal ?
[14:56] <jk^> i have a problem with PAE. I read all the guide, but it appears 3 dashes not 2, then i don't know which is the correct syntax of the text i have to enter :|
[14:56] <jk^> Guides tell do add forcepae -- forcepae (after ...quiet splash) but there are 3 dashes :\ which is the correct syntax?
[14:56] <jk^> i link an image https://drive.google.com/open?id=181PSJoEKNHMOLGavbWzuBIh9_CaqTFli
[15:04] <genii> Before the three dashes
[15:07] <jk^> yes but many people tells me to be sure to enter the parameter two times. If i remember well, one is for kernel and the other one is for bootloader :\
[15:07] <jk^> genii
[15:10] <genii> I'm not sure why, but the guide given for Lubunt says, yes, one time before one time after the dashes. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PAE
[15:11] <jk^> yes, but in my case the dashes are three not two
[15:11] <jk^> then?
[15:11] <genii> Looks like before feeds to GRUB, after gets handed to the initrd kernel as an option
[15:11] <genii> However many there are, put once before, once after
[15:11] <jk^> initrd?
[15:12] <genii> Initial Ramdisk
[15:12]  * genii wanders back to work again for a bit
[15:12] <jk^> ok
[15:12] <jk^> the
[15:12] <jk^> the correct syntax?
[15:12] <jk^> is?
[15:12] <jk^> "then, which is the correct syntax?"
[15:13] <jk^> excuse me, but i'm not very well at computer :\
[15:22] <genii> jk^: If in doubt, use the same syntax shown on the page I linked. So: forcepae -- forcepae    ( 2 dashes instead of 3 )
[15:23] <jk^> ok
[15:23] <jk^> then i have to cancel one dash
[15:51] <jk^> https://d1mon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/xubuntu_forcepae.png
[15:51] <jk^> so is the content of that image wrong?
[15:51] <jk^> genii
[15:55] <genii> Back up over the last dash, then put a space, then put again forcepae
[21:53] <electricmilk> Anyone know what happened to ubuntuguide.org?  I loved that site for quick access
[22:55] <hk238> hello
[22:56] <hk238> I installed Xubuntu on a system with Wifi using an Asus USB N10 Nano adapter, which has some problems. How can I create a connection with it using Xubuntu? I was expecting to use 'wifi-menu' but that's not available. Is there something else?
[22:59] <electricmilk> hk238,  Probably need the driver
[23:00] <hk238> could I possibly download it on an USB using this computer, then install it on that one?
[23:00] <electricmilk> Sure
[23:00] <electricmilk> hk238,  so.....
[23:00] <electricmilk> I recommend just plugging in ethernet to the PC if possible though
[23:00] <electricmilk> If you can't...
[23:00] <electricmilk> You'll need to install git
[23:01] <electricmilk> Well shoot this will be tricky
[23:01] <hk238> what would you normally use to start a wifi connection? All I know about is wifi-menu
[23:01] <electricmilk> Thats the problem.  You most likely need the drivers...so you need internet to get them.
[23:01] <electricmilk> I suppose you could get on another computer and download the files needed with git then put it on a USB
[23:02] <electricmilk> git clone https://github.com/pvaret/rtl8192cu-fixes.git
[23:02] <electricmilk> cd rtl8192cu-fixes
[23:02] <hk238> yeah this I'm sort of aware of
[23:02] <electricmilk> make ; sudo make install ; sudo modprobe 8192cu
[23:02] <hk238> however you can start the connection with wifi-menu and then download that with the connection even though it will drop
[23:02] <electricmilk> ooo
[23:02] <hk238> but I don't know what you use to start the connection in the absence of wifi-menu
[23:03] <electricmilk> Are you sure the wifi adapter is working properly and isn't a physical issue?
[23:03] <hk238> There's this issue with that thing you mentioned something like the computer forgets the device
[23:03] <hk238> and that thing '8192cu' or something like that is supposed to fix it, but at least with a previous install of archlinux (which didnt' work out eventually) it was possible to connect internet
[23:03] <electricmilk> Ehh don't think that was me
[23:04] <hk238> but the connection had to be reset quite often
[23:04] <hk238> so I tried to install the same fix, but then the arch linux froze.. but I don't think it was the driver that caused freezing
[23:05] <electricmilk> hk238, supposedly there is a linux driver available on the ASUS website
[23:10] <hk238> it seems it might be possible to start the connection using wpa_supplicant? :o
[23:14] <electricmilk> hk238,  You can start wifi from the terminal https://askubuntu.com/questions/294257/connect-to-wifi-network-through-ubuntu-terminal
[23:21] <hk238> hm it does at least list the SSID of the wifi network so it must be working somewhat:  )
[23:24] <hk238> thanks for help I have to go to bed now.. good night!


[05:34] <Guest17> Hello
[05:35] <Guest17> Anyone here? need a quick bit of info
[05:40] <Guest17> why is kubuntu iso so large?
[05:42] <rioting_pacifist> Because that's how much space the apps that come on the disc need, if you want a smaller install, try ubuntu-server and then add the kde components you need.
[05:47] <Guest17> rioting_pacifist Thank you for the response. I checked in the install I see no other special apps apart from libreoffice and KDE neon is just under 2GB iso size. what am I missing?
[06:42] <alkisg> Because of 1300MB nvidia drivers
[06:43] <alkisg> We do need to complain about that to the ubuntu-desktop team, it affects all official flavours
[06:43] <alkisg> If you file a bug report, tell me to +1 it
[06:44] <alkisg> Nvidia users can just download their huge drivers via the internet; only offline installations will get affected. It was the same way in the past...
[06:45] <alkisg> Or at least they could add only the latest nvidia series to the iso (=430MB), instead of three series (=1300MB)
[06:46] <Guest17> okay so all those drivers are installed with the os by default?
[06:46] <Guest17> or will they be installed only if I have an nvidea card? bcoz I don't
[06:46] <Guest17> omg this is too much bloat
[06:47] <rioting_pacifist> Guest17: use the netinstall and install what you want
[06:47] <alkisg> IF the user selects the [v] install proprietary software checkbox upon installation, and IF he has nvidia, then ONE of the three drivers gets installed from the CD, IF the CD is new and a newer driver wasn't published online, in which case the online driver is preferred
[06:47] <alkisg> It's a silly decision of the ubuntu-desktop, we need to fight against it
[06:47] <alkisg> *team
[06:49] <Guest17> alkisg yes, I think it is important for Iso to be accessible for people like me with tough internet a sub 2GB ISO is desired but kubuntu's 3+ GB is too much. I am saying this out of love as I love kubuntu but this should change I believe
[06:49] <Guest17> rioting_pacifist Where can I find net install for kubuntu?
[06:49] <alkisg> Guest17: open an issue in launchpad.net, many people will +1 it, it's been discussed by other flavours already
[06:52] <rioting_pacifist> https://ubuntu.com/download/server
[06:55] <Guest17> alkisg rioting_pacifist thank you
[06:55] <rioting_pacifist> you might need to uninstall some server stuff, but that should give you a ~1GB base
[06:56] <rioting_pacifist> from that you can install kubuntu-desktop
[14:10] <BluesKaj> Hi all
 KIMV
 QA8C
 VDLD
[14:44] <user|58> help how to download roblox
[14:45] <Maik> user|58: Roblox only works on Windows, Android and iOS/MacOS
[14:46] <user|58> okk thanks TT-TT
[15:28] <mparillo> You could try WINE. https://roblox.fandom.com/wiki/Roblox_on_Linux
[15:31] <Maik> mparillo: they already left a few seconds after the last message :)
[16:13] <bric85> hi
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/88e01a8f/file_53771.jpg
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/cdbd67ce/file_53772.jpg
[19:01] <Benoit_Kubunt> Hi everyone im looking to an easy way of setting up my partitions once they are done in Gparted, I think i need mount points and automount but im really just a windows guy :p
 "Hi everyone im looking to an..." <- If you know what you are doing in gparted and only use actual partitions (no lvm, no encryption), then all you need is fstab
[19:46] <rioting_pacifist> If you use lvm and encryption it's a bit more complicated, can you let the installer handle it?


[06:31] <micahg> bigon: is there a reason you added gjs back to natty?
[07:36] <didrocks> good morning
[08:07] <pitti> Good morning
[08:07] <dpm> morning pitti, good morning all
[08:08] <pitti> hey dpm
[08:17] <Sweetshark> Good morning all
[08:20] <pitti> hey Sweetshark
[08:29]  * Sweetshark sees his overnight build of LibreOffice-<IP_ADDRESS> got all the way into the smoketest ...
[08:30] <Sweetshark> ... just to fail there (looks like a simple permission problem though).
[08:30] <mvo> didrocks: hey, re your show-techitems-in-never-visible-mode> it feel to me like in NEVER_DISPLAY_NONAPPS it should also hide the "show nonapps" actionbar, what do you thnk?
[08:31] <didrocks> mvo: hum, no, otherwise in OneConf, we will never have that bar showing
[08:31] <didrocks> mvo: the mode is that you don't want "advanced smartness" like showing technical items if there are only apps
[08:31] <didrocks> mvo: that's particular to OneConf because we are checking "two sides" at once
[08:31] <didrocks> the additional app/removed app
[08:32] <didrocks> so it's not important if one side is at 0, and not the other
[08:32] <didrocks> does it make sense?
[08:34] <mvo> didrocks: sure, you are currently the only user of this mode, so that is fine. you use it to avoid that the call is made twice?
[08:34] <didrocks> mvo: right and that in one side we are showing only app, and the other tech items + app
[08:35] <didrocks> mvo: but in any case, for natty +1, if I can have real time to work on oneconf, I'll do mpt's "one tree" interface so that will be not valid anymore
[08:35] <didrocks> having two datamodel in one isn't really nice TBH !=
[08:35] <didrocks> s/\!\=/:)
[08:35] <pitti> hey didrocks
[08:35] <didrocks> good morning pitti
[08:35] <didrocks> how are you?
[08:36] <pitti> Sweetshark: congrats! it took me almost 3 days to get the maverick OO.o building on Natty even..
[08:36] <pitti> didrocks: pretty well, thanks! saw "Black Swan" last night with some friends
[08:37] <didrocks> pitti: oh, how was it?
[08:37] <pitti> didrocks: a bit psycho (that was to be expected), but I had feared a lot worse
[08:38] <pitti> nice composition of drama and art
[08:38] <pitti> pretty much like unity :-P
[08:39] <didrocks> ohhhh! :-)
[08:40] <pitti> but I liked the main conflict of it ("be perfect" vs. "just live, dammit")
[08:41] <didrocks> I think that can be interesting :)
[08:41] <didrocks> even if it's not the kind of movie I go to the cinema for
[08:42]  * bryceh waves
[08:42] <didrocks> hey bryceh
[08:42] <pitti> hey bryceh, how are you?
[08:42] <pitti> late for you..
[08:43] <bryceh> yeah a bit late :-)
[08:43]  * Sweetshark waves back at bryceh.
[08:43] <bryceh> been working on getting all my various boxes upgraded to latest natty and reporting resultant bugs ;-)
[08:43] <bryceh> heya Sweetshark!
[08:45] <bryceh> hey, probably simple question...  the date/time indicator now only shows the time.  Is there a way to force it to again show the date in panel?
[08:45] <bryceh> I no longer know if it's Sunday, next Tuesday, August 13, ... ;-)
[08:46] <pitti> it shows if you open it
[08:46] <pitti> oh, the date/time indicator shows appointments now, also if they are _totally_ wrong
[08:46] <pitti> oh, they are a subset of mine from the entire week, and in 12 hour format
[08:49] <RAOF> And the clock's now in 24h format, and doesn't follow the cultural preference.
[08:49] <pitti> if only we had a set of country/language specific description of currency, time, paper, and so on
[08:50] <pitti> we could call those "locales" or so
[08:50] <bryceh> I know, we can screenscrape from canonicaladmin.com!
[08:50] <pitti> "to get your time format right, apply for a contract with Canonical"
[08:50] <pitti> ?
[08:51] <bryceh> 3 ...
[08:51] <bryceh> 4 Profit!!
[08:53] <pitti> dpm: tested en and de for lucid, adding to wiki page
[08:53] <pitti> dpm: do you have some time to check Spanish?
[08:54] <dpm> pitti, yeah, I could do so, give me a few minutes and I'll add it there
[08:54] <pitti> cool
[08:55] <pitti> dpm: then I'll move the lot from that page to -updates, and we can roll the 10.04.2 CDs
[08:55] <dpm> pitti, ok
[08:58] <dpm> pitti, I've requested a full export for Natty. I think, if po2xpi works well, the language packs should build well too. I saw that the fi, oc, Lucid langpacks were not ok because the files exported from LP were incorrect (bug 715854), but I've had a look at the Natty ones and look ok. I think after danilo's changes and yours they should build ok. The export starts today at 14:00 UTC, perhaps we can have a look at them next week, then
[08:58] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 715854 in launchpad "Exported Firefox translations contain wrong references to languages other than the current" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/715854
[08:59] <pitti> dpm: hm, I thought I already tried them in devmode
[08:59] <pitti> dpm: so perhaps I should disable the automatic natty cron job then, and build them manually first
[08:59] <pitti> (the cron jobs don't rebuild -base anyway)
[08:59] <dpm> pitti, did you try the natty ones?
[08:59] <pitti> yes, both
[09:00] <dpm> oh, I see :(
[09:00] <pitti> I might have done something wrong, of course
[09:00] <pitti> the 4.0 xpis seem to have changed in structure somehow
[09:00] <pitti> but I'll try again next Monday then
[09:00] <pitti> this week I was more concerned about fixing them for lucid (and fixing the bugs which broke the builds completely)
[09:02] <dpm> pitti, yeah, the 4.0 ones haven't got a compressed .jar file inside them, the files are now there uncompressed. That's what danilo fixed in po2xpi (adapted it to the 4.0 format)
[09:03] <dpm> pitti, btw is the cron job that uploads the natty ones really running? I see that the latest langpacks are from 2011-01-17
[09:03] <pitti> -rw-r--r-- 1 langpack langpack    1712 Feb  8 15:23 natty-upload.log
[09:03] <pitti> the date is right, but it's too small
[09:04] <pitti> argh, "unusable secret key" -- I thought I fixed that last week
[09:04] <pitti> need to investigate
[09:04] <dpm> ok, thanks pitti
[09:04] <pitti> oh, hang on
[09:04] <pitti> that was on Tuesday, before I fixed the stuff
[09:04] <pitti> so the next one should work
[09:05] <dpm> pitti, ok, the next one should be a full one, in case that makes a difference (I can still cancel the request the full export if necessary, though)
[09:05] <pitti> dpm: no, that's fine; let's get natty firefox translations working
[09:06] <dpm> yeah
[09:22] <pitti> didrocks: so there was no new bamf release yesterday after all; should I cherrypick the fix into the Ubuntu package?
[09:23] <didrocks> pitti: I've done the release
[09:23] <didrocks> but seems that I didn't dput as there were // issues with nux
[09:23] <didrocks> so side-tracked and forgot it
[09:23] <didrocks> sorry, doing it
[09:23] <pitti> didrocks: ah, don't worry
[09:24] <pitti> didrocks: just wondered what to write in today's release report about this bug
[09:24] <pitti> didrocks: you can't :)
[09:24] <didrocks> -rw-------  1 didrocks didrocks   1815 2011-02-10 17:59 bamf_0.2.78-0ubuntu1_source.changes
[09:24] <pitti> -ENOLAUNCHPAD
[09:24] <didrocks> oh right
[09:24] <didrocks> see, it was waiting there ^^
[09:24] <didrocks> pitti: so just after, I'll push it
[09:24]  * pitti uploads some stuff to Debian then :)
[09:24]  * pitti hugs didrocks
[09:24] <pitti> didrocks: no hurry, I was really just wondering if there was something bad about it
[09:24]  * didrocks hugs pitti, sorry ETOOMANYTHINGINPARALLELANDFORGOTBAMF
[09:25] <didrocks> pitti: no no, I've made the local release, uploaded the tarball to launchpad, tested it
[09:25]  * pitti buys didrocks a bigger brain stack
[09:25] <didrocks> just missing the final dput :)
[09:25] <didrocks> pitti: it's needed!
[09:25] <pitti> we so much need build from bzr!
[09:25]  * mvo wants one as well!
[09:26] <didrocks> mvo: two for the price of one? :)
[09:26] <didrocks> pitti: yeah…
[09:26] <pitti> buy one, forget one free!
[09:26] <didrocks> heh
[09:29] <mvo> so lp is down for 90min? I wish bzr would still allow me to push my code
[09:30] <lifeless> its a bit tricky to allow that
[09:30] <seb128> would be nice it would allow to pull code at least
[09:30] <lifeless> the db that controlls access permissions is in readonly mode
[09:30] <lifeless> readonly will be doable eventually
[09:43] <geser> is it expected that I get now also a menubar for the "desktop" nautilus and gnome-terminal where I disabled the menubar by default? (Classic Desktop)
[09:46] <pitti> dpm: thanks for testing Spanish
[09:46] <pitti> dpm: I think all these tests just referred to the GNOME langpacks, so I shouldn't copy the KDE ones yet?
[09:51] <dpm> pitti, hm, tough decision, but yeah, afaik all the testers on that page are Ubuntu (GNOME) people. We have never explicitly tested the KDE langpacks, and I'm not sure what we did in the past, whether we uploaded them or not.
[09:52] <dpm> I should add a section explicitly for KDE and a column for it on the table too
[10:15] <pitti> ah, LP is back up
[10:16] <pitti> ^ mvo, didrocks: FYI
[10:16] <didrocks> pitti: thanks
[10:17] <mvo> yeah!
[10:31] <Sweetshark> pitti: I will soon need to get a rundown of the publishing stuff: Should I register a new branch for the 3.3.1 LO at https://code.launchpad.net/~libreoffice ? How do I do the builds and uploads on various platforms etc.
[10:34] <pitti> Sweetshark: not a +junk one, please
[10:35] <pitti> Sweetshark: https://code.launchpad.net/openoffice is the layout we had for oo.o, but perhaps we should make that a little more regular
[10:35] <pitti> Sweetshark: our usual approach is to have lp:~ubuntu-desktop/projectname/ubuntu for the "packaging trunk"
[10:35] <pitti> Sweetshark: which is also what should appear in the Vcs-Bzr: line
[10:36] <pitti> Sweetshark: and if we need to do changes for older releases (SRUs, stable release updates), we call them /maverick
[10:36] <pitti> Sweetshark: so I suggest to push your's to lp:~bjoern-michaelsen/libreoffice/ubuntu/
[10:36] <pitti> Sweetshark: that is, we are talking about the debian/ branch here, right?
[10:36] <pitti> not an upstream import
[10:37] <pitti> Sweetshark: I'm suggesting you as owner because you aren't in ~ubuntu-desktop yet
[10:37] <pitti> Sweetshark: the owner can be changed later on, for now "owned by you" is fine
[10:38] <pitti> Sweetshark: so I don't think we need a new branch for every upstream release
[10:39] <pitti> Sweetshark: uploads> you need sponsoring, you aren't allowed to upload to Ubuntu yet
[10:39] <pitti> Sweetshark: you can upload to a PPA, of course, for a first test (which would actually ease sponsoring, too)
[10:41] <Sweetshark> heh, yes: the debian branch, upstream imports for LO might be rather unfair to the launchpad team.
[10:43] <pitti> Sweetshark: yeah, lp:~vcs-imports/openoffice/trunk doesn't seem very happy either
[10:43] <pitti> Sweetshark: and I don't think they'd be too useful either
[10:44] <pitti> it's too much of a pain to derive the packaging branch from that one anyway
[10:44] <pitti> so debian/ only sounds fine for that
[10:44] <Sweetshark> also, debian is likely to move to git soon with their repo. As we are merging lots of stuff from them: is there a good bzr/git bridge ?
[10:45] <pitti> it kinda works, but not in both directions
[10:45]  * Sweetshark is constantly botching his vcs commands with debian/ in bzr, LO in git and OOo in hg ...
[10:45] <pitti> Sweetshark: once they do, I suggest to have an ubuntu branch in the Debian packaging git and negotiating with Debian that you can get commit access to it
[10:46] <pitti> that makes it so much easier to merge from each other
[10:46] <pitti> Sweetshark: buy Rene a beer and promise him to not commit to his master branches? :-)
[10:47] <pitti> Sweetshark: if he doesn't want to, then just move to git as well, I'd say
[10:47] <pitti> then you can still merge back and forth, they just live on different servers then
[10:47] <Sweetshark> pitti: commit access to the debian repo was already offered to me, so that should not be a problem.
[10:47] <pitti> ah, so much the better
[10:48] <pitti> Sweetshark: over time, I suppose you would/should make packaging fixes in the debian branch as much as possible, and only keep the unavoidable delta in ubuntu
[10:48] <Sweetshark> ... that is until I break debian for the first time ;)
[10:48] <Sweetshark> sure
[10:48] <pitti> I'd start with committing them to ubuntu branch and asking Rene to review/cherrypick
[10:49] <pitti> after some time he'll tell you to JFDI
[10:49] <pitti> or "JFCI" in that case :)
[10:50] <Sweetshark> We currently have way to many "patching levels" in LO: The main repos, the stuff that gets patched upon it by libreoffice-build and then again, the stuff that gets patched upon that by debian/* ....
[10:50] <pitti> Sweetshark: btw, were there any mysteries you stumbled over when you studied the libo and general packaging?
[10:50] <pitti> Sweetshark: yeah, these are a pain
[10:50] <pitti> Sweetshark: is libo-build what used to be go-oo?
[10:50] <seb128> Sweetshark, oh, and just as you know the debian lo maintainer doesn't like ubuntu much
[10:50] <pitti> i. e. is that meant to gradually be merged into trunk? or stay forever?
[10:51] <seb128> Sweetshark, so if he has weird comments don't take it against you
[10:51] <pitti> seb128: well, so far we didn't really contribute anything back to Debian's packages..
[10:51] <seb128> he's usually reasonable with technical patches
[10:51] <seb128> pitti, well, he really hates ubuntu though
[10:51] <pitti> yeah he has a a bit of a grudge; but with Sweetshark now rocking the house that will hopefully get better :)
[10:51] <dpm> hi mvo, I can't get software-properties-gtk to run well on unity. It sometimes load, sometimes the window is hidden and I have to end up killing it. Do you know if this is a known bug?
[10:52] <geser> how get I rid of those "unwanted" menubars I now get in the Classic Desktop in natty?
[10:52] <pitti> geser: I think the classic desktop now installs the menu bar applet by default; just delete it?
[10:55] <Sweetshark> seb128: I helped getting some patches that debian cared about into OOo upstream ... so now it is kind of a reverted position.
[10:55] <geser> pitti: you mean the "indicator-appmenu" package?
[10:56] <pitti> geser: no, the applet in the panel
[10:56] <pitti> oh, I thought it was a separate applet; I was 90% sure I removed that
[10:56] <pitti> geser: but if it's the package, sure
[10:56] <pitti> but it shouldn't be necessary to remove that package to remove the global menu
[10:56] <geser> pitti: I've a menubar (from nautilus) on my second screen where I have no panel
[10:57] <geser> and gnome-terminal shows also it's menubar even as I've no menubar on new terminals selected in the options
[10:57] <Sweetshark> libo-build is ex-go-oo. There are still >600 patches in the dev300 folder alone though ....
[10:57] <pitti> geser: can't you right-click on the menu bar in the panel and "remove"?
[10:57] <pitti> Sweetshark: right, I know it's huge; I was just wondering if that will eventually be merged
[10:58] <geser> pitti: no, I'll make a screenshot
[11:00] <geser> pitti: http://www.bienia.de/tmp/Screenshot.png
[11:02] <pitti> geser: hm, no idea about that then; kenvandine ^ ?
[11:05] <Sweetshark> pitti: It has to be merged asap. However, if I will state that too loud I'll have to do it. Since some patches are only applied conditionally (some distros do, others dont) there is also diplomacy involved in that. But it has to be done, because currently users are told dont file issue of your non-vanilla build at freedesktop.org and on launchpad they are told to not file upstream feature requests. This is frustrating for users and thus
[11:06] <Sweetshark> Having too many different patchsets is very bad from a QA point of view.
[11:07] <pitti> yeah, absolutely
[11:08] <pitti> and nobody really knows which patches are applied where, and thus you effectively have 10.000 combinations out there
[11:08] <mvo> dpm: hello, let me try that after lunch, maybe something with the gir stuff?
[11:08] <pitti> mvo: current natty softwarwe-properties doesn't use GI yet, though
[11:09] <pitti> it's pure pygtk
[11:09] <pitti> but FWIW, it works well here (natty, unity)
[11:09] <Sweetshark> pitti: also at LO upstream is not upsteam: developers usually do a "native build", that is without the patches from libo-build. Another thing that can be heal by moving as much as possible directly in the master ...
[11:10] <mvo> pitti: aha, sorry, you are right of course
[11:10] <mvo> pitti: my head connected dpm with language-selector
[11:11] <pitti> :)
[11:11] <pitti> but that works like a charm for sure, as it's GI!!11!
[11:11] <dpm> mvo, no rush, I just thought I'd mention it. I can trigger the problem when I load software-properties-gtk from the command line
[11:12] <pitti> dpm: with sudo or gksu?
[11:12] <dpm> pitti, with sudo and without
[11:12] <pitti> it doesn't run as user, it just brings up an error dialog "plz run me as root"
[11:13] <dpm> but unity has started behaving a bit crazy here, I'm not sure if that's the cause
[11:13]  * Sweetshark realizes what a luxury it was to build with --disable-binfilter --disable-mozilla as a developer ...
[11:13] <dpm> brb
[11:22] <dpm> with gksu works well, I only get a hidden window when running it with sudo or without, from the command line
[11:48] <pitti> mvo: yay, got s-properties running with GI
[11:49] <pitti> mvo: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~pitti/software-properties/pygi/revision/650
[11:50] <pitti> mvo: now the MirrorTestGTK class doesn't actually do anything GTK specific any more
[11:50] <pitti> mvo: I could simplify this a lot now, by adding the changes to the main MirrorTest class, and just using that from both -gtk and -kde, if you want me to?
[12:01] <cyphermox> good morning
[12:01]  * didrocks just receives his 23' monitor \o/
[12:01] <pitti> hey cyphermox, how are you?
[12:02] <didrocks> hey cyphermox
[12:02] <pitti> didrocks: niice! size does matter!
[12:03] <didrocks> pitti: heh ;) yeah, I will not anymore break my eyes on a 17' for 1920x1200
[12:03] <didrocks> I'll have the same resolution on a way bigger screen :)
[12:07] <cyphermox> pitti, hey, doing alright
[12:08] <chrisccoulson> didrocks, nice!
[12:09] <chrisccoulson> i miss my monitor, i still can't connect it to my laptop without crashing it
[12:09] <mvo> pitti: please
[12:09] <mvo> didrocks: niccce, which one did you get?
[12:09]  * mvo was considering a 23/24" for some time already
[12:10] <didrocks> mvo: it's a samsung SyncMaster F2380, I have no clue about hw, so I relied on some magazine to compare to see what's nice for non-game usage
[12:14]  * Sweetshark likes his Sun X7236 24" screen ... Though you have to be careful to turn down the brightness -- it might blind you otherwise ...
[12:18]  * didrocks knows the first thing to do with the monitor for the week-end: reinstalling the server at home and reset up his blog :)
[12:20] <pitti> didrocks: and your IRC proxy? :-)
[12:20] <didrocks> pitti: I'm not sure about that one… I feel my heart "lighter" when knowing I can't be pinged on IRC while being away TBH…
[12:21] <pitti> ah, ok
[12:22] <didrocks> we'll see ;)
[12:22] <pitti> mvo: ok, resubmitted
[12:27]  * pitti sends didrocks a ---`--,<@  flower for dput'ing bamf
[12:27]  * pitti lunch, bbl &
[12:28] <didrocks> pitti: done ;)
[12:28] <didrocks> enjoy!
[12:38] <stgraber> didrocks: yeah ! now you can debug my dual head issues ;)
[12:38] <didrocks> stgraber: heh, I think I'll be forced to ;)
[12:38] <didrocks> I don't know where cyphermox is with that btw
[12:41] <cyphermox> didrocks, with what?
[12:41] <stgraber> cyphermox: wow, you're up early ;)
[12:42] <cyphermox> I've been up for an hour
[12:42] <didrocks> cyphermox: multimonitor support, I think you started it, isn't it?
[12:42] <cyphermox> didrocks, ah, yeah
[12:43] <cyphermox> I don't understand GL enough to continue though, it's still the same issue, it works when unity starts, but if there is a res change, everything is "fine" except the panel and launcher don't get repainted where they should be, and I haven't been able to get them to do it
[12:43] <cyphermox> I've been busy with NM and other stuff since
[12:45] <didrocks> cyphermox: sure, no worry
[13:33] <pitti> seb128: should we drop some of your remaining WIs for cleaning up old libs? this will be significantly easier with gnome 3.0 in the next cycle, I guess?
[13:34] <seb128> pitti, we are like 2-3 source away to drop some so I was keeping those on purpose
[13:34] <pitti> seb128: oh, good to hear
[13:34] <seb128> pitti, like libglade it's only checkbox which ara seems to have a vcs for and pitivi
[13:35] <pitti> I had the feeling that was pretty much "done" now for .32
[13:35] <seb128> libgnomeui, etc is probably going to be deferred due to tomboy
[13:35] <pitti> seb128: I was actually wondering about pitivi after reading Robert's trip report
[13:35] <seb128> they use gconfpeditor which is using libgnome
[13:35] <seb128> it's probably not worth the effort to port this cycle
[13:36] <pitti> *nod*
[13:36] <seb128> pitti, well it seems not likely we will change pitivi this cycle
[13:36] <seb128> we might want to port it to gtkbuilder still
[13:36] <seb128> but at the same time libglade is small enough that it might not be worth the efforts
[13:36] <seb128> I will drop the summary on the spec and update the work items
[13:37] <pitti> I was a bit concerned to read that even upstream devs say it's not well maintained ATM
[13:39] <seb128> pitti, well it's like it was the only project short on people maintaining it
[13:40] <pitti> heh
[13:45] <chrisccoulson> does anybody else dislike the new behaviour of bash-completion?
[13:48]  * bcurtiswx waves to room
[13:48] <pitti> chrisccoulson: how so?
[13:49] <chrisccoulson> pitti - say, if i want to do "ls" in a directory that is several folders deep, i could just tab-complete my way down the hierarchy
[13:50] <pitti> that seems unchanged here
[13:51] <chrisccoulson> pitti - it's broken in the latest bash-completion. when you hit tab and it completes a filename, the cursor ends up in a position where you can't descend any further
[13:51] <chrisccoulson> (ie, at each level, you have to hit backspace, and then tab again)
[13:51] <chrisccoulson> that changed in the latest bash-completion
[13:52] <chrisccoulson> i'm finding it difficult to describe the behaviour ;)
[13:52] <pitti> hm,  it completes to dir[tab] -> dirname/ for me, as it should
[13:52] <chrisccoulson> pitti - it completes to dir[tab] -> dirname | (with '|' being the new cursor position)
[13:52] <chrisccoulson> (for me, anyway)
[13:53] <chrisccoulson> so, hitting tab no longer lists the contents of "dirname"
[13:53] <cyphermox> just a wild guess like this, but I think indicator-datetime has some issues with geoclue right now...
[13:53] <chrisccoulson> and i have to press backspace instead
[13:53] <chrisccoulson> pitti - which bash-completion do you have?
[13:53] <pitti> 1:1.3-1ubuntu1
[13:53] <pitti> chrisccoulson: but that shouldn't affect file name completion, that's bash itself
[13:54] <pitti> bash-completion does stuff like expand package names for "apt-get" or options for make
[13:54] <chrisccoulson> pitti - hmmm, that's strange. when i downgraded bash-completion, i got the old behaviour back again :/
[13:54] <pitti> chrisccoulson: hm, so maybe some script there mis-matches
[13:54] <pitti> chrisccoulson: it's at least not meant to fiddle with file name completion
[14:04] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, X just died
[14:05] <chrisccoulson> pitti - this is what happens with me - http://people.canonical.com/~chrisccoulson/bash-completion.ogv
[14:05] <chrisccoulson> a screencast explains it much better ;)
[14:06] <cyphermox> could someone please review my merge requests for connman and ofono?
[14:06] <chrisccoulson> cyphermox, oh, you can't upload those?
[14:07] <cyphermox> chrisccoulson, nah :)
[14:07] <cyphermox> chrisccoulson, I'll run for motu at the end of the month though, I think
[14:07] <chrisccoulson> cyphermox, i can review those later on if nobody else beats me to it ;)
[14:07] <chrisccoulson> i've got some other things to do first though
[14:07] <chrisccoulson> yeah, you should :)
[14:08] <cyphermox> probably should for desktop team as well, maybe
[14:08] <pitti> chrisccoulson: ugh, that's indeed nasty
[14:08] <chrisccoulson> pitti - it goes away if i downgrade bash-completion :/
[14:08] <pitti> chrisccoulson: but it's not doing that for me, and I think it's a bug
[14:08] <pitti> chrisccoulson: apparently it misidentifies a directory as a file?
[14:08] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, it seems like that
[14:09] <chrisccoulson> it was driving me crazy yesterday ;)
[14:27] <seb128> kenvandine, hey
[14:28] <chrisccoulson> pitti, it is this chunk in /etc/bash_completion that breaks it: http://paste.ubuntu.com/565880/
[14:29] <chrisccoulson> i just reverted it, and it works again :)
[14:30] <pitti> chrisccoulson: hm, that looks wrong indeed -- why wouldn't ls, less, patch, diff, etc, take filenames??
[14:31] <rsalveti> seb128: hey, can you help reviewing https://code.launchpad.net/~rsalveti/clutter/gles/+merge/49333?
[14:31] <rsalveti> for arm we want clutter to use the gles backend
[14:31] <rsalveti> I ported the old modifications with some other fixes, and it's working fine on arm
[14:32] <chrisccoulson> pitti - not sure ;)
[14:32] <chrisccoulson> do you think it's ok to revert that change then?
[14:32] <seb128> rsalveti, hey, can you request review from ~ubuntu-desktop for it?
[14:32] <seb128> rsalveti, I will try to review it but not likely today, it's 3pm on a friday and I still have work I want to do before the end of the day
[14:33] <rsalveti> seb128: it's already, but I'm pinging you directly because you know more about clutter
[14:33] <rsalveti> seb128: don't worry
[14:33] <rsalveti> last time my merge proposal was there for a week
[14:33] <rsalveti> and then we got a package update
[14:33] <seb128> rsalveti, ok, thanks, I will review it when I've some free time, like on monday then
[14:33] <rsalveti> seb128: sure, np, thanks a lot
[14:33] <seb128> we don't plan clutter updates so it should be ok
[14:33] <seb128> thanks
[14:34] <rsalveti> seb128: and this only affect arm
[14:34] <seb128> right
[14:37] <bcurtiswx> ken was up late last night, i can vouch for that
[14:37] <bcurtiswx> as i was too :-\
[14:37] <seb128> what did you guys work on?
[14:38] <bcurtiswx> kenvandine, was working on getting the new launcher API stuff working with xchat-gnome and i was working on empathy
[14:40] <bcurtiswx> he got it working, i'm quite close.  if i reset unity then the count shows on the empathy icon, but it doesn't update.. and i have both unity and libunity from trunk
[14:48] <kenvandine> hey tedg
[14:48] <kenvandine> i'm fixing your dual build problems now
[14:48] <kenvandine> welcome to my hell :)
[14:49] <tedg> kenvandine, Heh, I think if I look at the commit logs you brought that to my world ;)
[14:49] <kenvandine> it was building when i committed :)
[14:50] <seb128> grr, not sure what I hate most now, gnome-polkit for crashing, update-manager to hanging when it does or compiz to screw when apport triggers because of update-manager
[14:51] <kenvandine> seb128, ah, another version of hell there
[14:52] <pitti> chrisccoulson: where does that come from? debian?  Everything is enabled for them in the <IP_ADDRESS> package I just build, but the actual icons are missing (I used a copy of the tango icon for testing here).
[14:54] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, it was merged from debian
[14:55] <pitti> Sweetshark: good question -- I assume they were an extra tarball in the openoffice.org source package?
[14:56] <glatzor> seb128, got a problem with aptdaemon and policykit?
[14:58] <Sweetshark> pitti: well, in all the versions I have here the are gone already ... gotta find an old package.
[14:59] <pitti> hmm
[14:59] <pitti> Sweetshark: http://paste.ubuntu.com/565898/ -- can't see them there
[14:59] <pitti> and yet
[14:59] <pitti> Package: openoffice.org-style-human
[14:59] <pitti> Source: openoffice.org
[15:00] <pitti> Sweetshark: so if you unpack the openoffice.org sources and apply the patches, there should be a images_human.zip file somewhere
[15:02] <seb128> glatzor, I think it's rather update-manager being stupid
[15:02] <kenvandine> tedg, i am doing the libappindicator builds again dance over here :-D
[15:02] <seb128> glatzor, it the gnome-polkit-daemon crashes it just goes in "waiting for a timeout having a blocked ui"
[15:03] <seb128> glatzor, or if you deny the pwd dialog
[15:03] <tedg> kenvandine, woot!
[15:03] <tedg> kenvandine, I was going through it last night and realizing that we really need a way to "distcheck" with GTK3.
[15:03] <seb128> kenvandine, ted: is the calendar indicator known to not display events which are not on the current day or on remote calendars
[15:03] <seb128> ?
[15:04] <seb128> tedg, kenvandine: btw what happened to indicator-appmenu, no tarball this week?
[15:04] <kenvandine> seb128, it is only for the default local calendar
[15:04] <tedg> seb128, Remote calendars yes, I didn't know about the events.
[15:04] <seb128> tedg, kenvandine: would be nice to have updates so we can keep testing menus with the current stack
[15:04] <tedg> seb128, Still working on them :(  Got blocked on libappindicator... fun... yeah, that's it.
[15:04] <kenvandine> tedg, distcheck with gtk3 worked for me... when i did it :)
[15:04] <mvo> seb128: pfff ;)
[15:04] <kenvandine> seb128, indeed... tedg was busy messing with multi-builds
[15:05] <seb128> mvo, hey, your software is driving me crazy, it keeps screwing my desktop enough that I need to restart my session every second time I use it
[15:05] <seb128> kenvandine, hum, k, why is libappindicator blocking indicator-appmenu?
[15:05] <kenvandine> seb128, it really sucks we can't do remove events in indicator-datetime, but apparently that will be way to slow :/
[15:05] <seb128> seems they are different code
[15:05] <kenvandine> seb128, not directly, i am sure
[15:05] <seb128> kenvandine, what? can't do?
[15:05] <kenvandine> just tedg was busy with fixing that instead of releasing appmenu
[15:05] <seb128> mvo, no offense to you ;-)
[15:06] <kenvandine> indicator-datetime doesn't display any events on remote calendars, apparently eds doesn't cache any of that
[15:06] <seb128> hum
[15:06] <seb128> it doesn't but it will for natty right?
[15:06] <kenvandine> so when the menu loads we would have to wait for the remote calendar to respond with events
[15:07] <seb128> why can't it be populated in an async way rather?
[15:07] <kenvandine> i don't think so, apparently it is a wanted feature in eds that is hard to implement
[15:07] <mvo> seb128: what about just fixing polkit ;) ?
[15:07] <seb128> the standard GNOME applet does it...
[15:07] <mvo> seb128: but yeah, let me have a look whats going on when the auth thing crashes
[15:07] <kenvandine> i think karl sadi eds doesn't have async methods for that
[15:07] <seb128> mvo, funny you speak about that it seems we get lot of crashes due to your session registration patch ;-)
[15:07] <kenvandine> seb128, karl said that is why the gnome applet takes so long to load
[15:07] <seb128> kenvandine, the old gnome-panel applet just does it
[15:08] <seb128> wth?
[15:08] <seb128> kenvandine, I just tried, the applet loads fine and event are displayed in an asycn way
[15:08] <kenvandine> dunno, chat with karl about it... that is how he described it to me a couple days ago
[15:08] <kenvandine> i was disappointed by the same thing
[15:10] <seb128> kenvandine, ok thanks
[15:23] <geser> kenvandine: Hi, do you have an idea why I get that menubar from nautilus on my desktop? (http://www.bienia.de/tmp/Screenshot.png) (natty, classic desktop)
[15:23] <chrisccoulson> that's deliberate isn't it?
[15:24] <chrisccoulson> i don't like the nautilus menubar showing, i think it's weird
[15:24] <kenvandine> geser, yeah, what chrisccoulson  said
[15:24] <chrisccoulson> can we get rid of it? :)
[15:24] <geser> gnome-terminal shows me also a menubar even as I select no menubar by default
[15:25] <chrisccoulson> geser, yeah, that's expected too. what should happen is that the option in gnome-terminal should be hidden when there is a global menubar
[15:25] <chrisccoulson> i've done the same in firefox already (hidden the option to hide the menubar)
[15:25] <geser> the classic desktop also gets a global menubar?
[15:26] <chrisccoulson> geser, i think it does now
[15:26] <glatzor> seb128, aptdaemon.policykit1 should raise the AuthorizationFailed in this case
[15:26] <chrisccoulson> mine has got one anyway ;)
[15:37] <kenvandine> tedg, libappindicator uploaded and pushed, so you can merge to see how i fixed it
[15:40] <tedg> kenvandine, Great, will do!
[15:40] <tedg> kenvandine, appmenu-gtk on it's way.
[15:40] <kenvandine> woot
[15:41] <kenvandine> tedg, this is extra fun on a friday, there is no api breakages right?
[15:41] <tedg> kenvandine, Naw, minor updates.
[15:41] <tedg> kenvandine, Mostly keeping cadence really.
[15:41] <kenvandine> good
[15:42] <seb128> kenvandine, tedg, mterry: great work on the appmenu front, it's really solid
[15:43] <kenvandine> it really has gotta significantly better in the past week or so
[15:43] <tedg> kenvandine, We introduced some crashers on purpose so when they went away you'd feel like it's "so much better" ;)
[15:44] <kenvandine> i kind of assumed so
[15:44] <seb128> tedg, kenvandine: there is one libappindicator issue which is annoying
[15:45] <seb128> gnome-policykit-daemon crashes often in libappindicator code
[15:45] <seb128> in app-indicator.c l1279
[15:45] <seb128> theme_changed_cb()
[15:45] <seb128> 	if (priv->dbus_registration != 0 && priv->connection != NULL) {
[15:46] <seb128> I didn't manage to get the issue under valgrind yet though
[15:46] <seb128> but it does often crash when I use update-manager
[15:46] <tedg> seb128, Hmm, okay.  Probably not disconnecting a signal.
[15:47] <seb128> what is weird is that there is no theme change
[15:47] <seb128> so not sure why this cb is called
[16:04] <micahg> bigon: is there a reason you added gjs back to natty?
[16:05] <rodrigo_> GLib-GIO-ERROR **: Settings schema 'com.canonical.indicators.sound' is not installed
[16:05] <rodrigo_> is that schema in some not-released-yet version of the indicator stuff?
[16:05] <tedg> seb128, I'm guessing that gsd shutting down or some such?
[16:05] <bigon> micahg: well it is needed for some developers, by gnome-shell
[16:06] <micahg> bigon: right, but gnome-shell isn't in the archive, I'd rather not support gjs if we don't have gnome-shell, it's currently staged in the GNOME3 PPA, does anything else need it
[16:06] <seb128> rodrigo_, should be in the current natty version
[16:06] <rodrigo_> seb128, hmm, right, I see an update here
[16:07] <seb128> tedg, well I doubt so, it's like "use update-manager to install some binaries, then use it again to install some extra ones"
[16:08] <seb128> tedg, I tend to pick the few ones I want to try now then select other upgrades and do a second round
[16:08] <seb128> tedg, thinking about it, it could be after an icon cache update on disk
[16:08] <tedg> seb128, Hmm, interesting.
[16:10] <bigon> micahg: if there is ABI breaks from mozjs I will take care of rebuilding the package
[16:10] <micahg> bigon: I'm more worried about xulrunner transitions, can you commit to porting to future xulrunner releases?
[16:11] <bigon> micahg: well the pkg is maintained in debian too
[16:11] <bigon> do you expect such xulrunner transitions soon?
[16:11] <micahg> bigon: possibly, it depends on what can be worked out with Mozilla's new 3 month release schedule plans
[16:13] <bigon> in 3 months natty is release so I guess that GNOME 3 will enter the official achive
[16:13] <micahg> bigon: yes, but we don't need gjs for natty, we can add it back when gnome-shell hits the archive
[16:22] <bigon> well the reason no other package use it is quite thin IMHO
[16:31] <micahg> bigon: when there are no problems supporting it sure
[16:44] <rodrigo_> my computer hates me today :(
[16:58] <seb128> pitti, new pygobject tarball
[16:58] <seb128> just fyi
[16:58] <seb128> you probably want to call it a week after the meeting
[16:58] <seb128> it can wait for next week as well ;-)
[17:04] <pitti> seb128: guess what just finished building here :)
[17:04] <seb128> ;-)
[17:04]  * pitti is hanging out regularly in the gi channels now
[17:04] <pitti> seb128: I'm in release meeting, but I still want to test/uplaod this
[17:10] <pitti> seb128: syncing g-i from experimental now, FYI (you asked about it yesterday)
[17:11] <seb128> pitti, oh right, forgot to do that, thanks
[17:12] <seb128> tedg,
[17:12] <seb128> ==8284== Invalid read of size 4
[17:12] <seb128> ==8284==    at 0x40654BB: theme_changed_cb (app-indicator.c:1279)
[17:12] <seb128> ==8284==    by 0x45C948B: g_cclosure_marshal_VOID__VOID (gmarshal.c:79)
[17:12] <seb128> ==8284==    by 0x45AD351: g_closure_invoke (gclosure.c:767)
[17:12] <seb128> ==8284==    by 0x45C0047: signal_emit_unlocked_R (gsignal.c:3252)
[17:12] <seb128> ==8284==    by 0x45C8B28: g_signal_emit_valist (gsignal.c:2983)
[17:12] <seb128> but it doesn't give extra details about where it was freed before
[17:13] <tedg> seb128, Hmm, okay.  I'll have to do an audit of that signal I think.
[17:21] <tedg> kenvandine, Can you add bug 597317 to the indicator-session changelog please?  I forgot :(
[17:21] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 597317 in indicator-session "Text on shutdown and restart boxes is selected while tabbing" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/597317
[17:21] <kenvandine> tedg, sure
[17:21] <chrisccoulson> ok, i officially hate swt-gtk and java
[17:50] <pitti> good night everyone! have a nice weekend
[21:00] <polslinux> hi to all!
[21:08] <JanC> is somebody tracking banshee for natty?
[21:09] <JanC> I tried a backport of the new banshee versions to maverick, and it's totally unusable
[21:09] <JanC> I killed it at 4 GiB memory usage or so
[21:09] <JanC> :-(
[22:51] <patrickmw> jibel; do you still need that output?
[22:54] <jibel> patrickmw, yep, there is an issue that I'd like to investigate in LDTP which fails to resolve correctly keysyms to keycode.
[22:55] <patrickmw> jibel: https://pastebin.canonical.com/43253/
[23:01] <jibel> patrickmw, thanks, that confirms what I thought. I'll fix that next week. Have a nice week end.
[23:01] <patrickmw> jibel: np, and hasn't your weekend already begun?!
[23:04] <jibel> patrickmw, Oh, you're right, 4 minutes ago ! I need to hurry now


[12:17] <Aleo> Hello.  I am not sure what to do next.   After the edits in my sandbox, should I write an email  and get everyone's opinion on the wiki
[12:18] <Aleo> Or, should I make the changes in the wiki, and ask everyone by email to contribute the edits directly
[12:18] <Aleo> Also, I read you had excellent UDS congratulations.


[04:51] <stub> bdx: If you want to deploy a version of PostgreSQL that is not 9.3 with trusty, then you either need to set the pgdg flag when you deploy (or change it when the charm fails and retry), or have it in some other repository pointed to by the install_sources line. That second option is why it isn't on by default - the many installs where there is no egress.
[04:53] <stub> bdx: For example, we have PG 9.1 packages in our internal archives which get deployed to trusty.
[07:23] <bolthole_> hi late night juju groupies...
[07:23] <bolthole_> I'm wondering if anyone knows who specificaly invented juju? the various writeups I've found on it did not say
[07:28] <bolthole_> I would like to contact the person who invented juju, reguarding some additional ideas I have.
[07:29] <blahdeblah> bolthole_: The person who invented it is not really relevant any more; there are several teams of full-time developers working on it now.
[07:29] <blahdeblah> The best way to discuss those things would be to open a bug on Launchpad, or join the juju or juju-dev mailing list and post your thoughts there.
[07:34] <bolthole_> is that a code phrase for "that person no longer works at Canonical"? :-/  I would like to know how to contact them, because I have some ideas that, while sort of related to juju, are not actually applicable to normal juju itself.
[07:35] <blahdeblah> Not code at all; I don't actually know who invented it.
[07:35] <bolthole_> fair enough :)
[07:36] <blahdeblah> But if that's the path you want to take, juju was renamed from ensemble around 2010/2011, I think, so you might want to Google for that instead.
[15:08] <suchvenu> Hi Matt
[15:08] <mbruzek> suchvenu: hello
[15:09] <suchvenu> Regarding the DB2 design Doc I sent for your review
[15:09] <suchvenu> You mentioned, relation-joined should create unique database-name/username/password so multiple charms can connect to the same db2 instance.
[15:10] <suchvenu> I am creating unique username, password and instance as per config values , but this is done in Config change hook and not in relation hook
[15:10] <suchvenu> Now to create database name in the relation hooks, the charm which needs the DB to be created on DB2 needs to give the DB name to the DB2 charm.
[15:11] <suchvenu> Also some products may need only one DB to be created , while others may need multiple DBs
[15:11] <mbruzek> suchvenu: Yes I think that may be incorrect.  For other database charms I believe this is done in the relation-joined hook so different charm types have different database names.
[15:12] <suchvenu> So how do we control the no of DBs to be created and their names ?
[15:12] <suchvenu> Ok, so the username and password should be provided by the related charm to DB2 charm ?
[15:14] <mbruzek> suchvenu: If you do it per config value it is clear to me that you can not get multiple databases.  Let us assume mediawiki had a db2 relation and so did dokuwiki had a db2 relation.  Your config-changed hook would only create one instance, database, username, and password, but both charms could relate to the ibm-db2 charm.  These both would get the same information and write to each other's database.
[15:15] <mbruzek> suchvenu: I am not a database expert but I know two different services (mediawiki and dokuwiki) using the same database would be a problem.
[15:18] <mbruzek> suchvenu: kwmonroe and I looked into this before we made the recommendation I believe you can make multiple databases in the same instance, so your db2-relation-joined hook would use the service name to create a unique database name.  You could hash the name or just replace the invalid characters.  So in my previous example if you get a relation, and the remote service name comes back as 'mediawiki/0' you can convert that to 'mediawiki0' and 'dokuwiki
[15:20] <mbruzek> suchvenu: that way the DB2 charm could relate to different charms and they would not use the same database name. Check out the mysql or mariadb charms for examples of how this is done.
[15:20] <lazypower> mbruzek you would really need to just split on '/' otherwise mediawiki/1 would turn into mediawiki1 - just chiming in with a slight addendum there
[15:20] <suchvenu> ok. But if any service wants more than 1 DB , how do we control it ? And if they need DB with specific name
[15:21] <mbruzek> lazypower: I don't remember if mysql makes a 'mediawiki1' database or if it makes a 'mediawiki' database for all the units of mediawiki to share.
[15:21] <suchvenu> Also for each user i am creating a separate instance with same name as user name. This is as per one of the review comment i got previously to have unique username, password and instance
[15:22] <lazypower> mbruzek - it uses the service name, and strips invalid characters + anything after the / is dropped.
[15:25] <mbruzek> suchvenu: That may have been a review comment from someone who didn't fully understand how DB2 worked, and if it was me I apologize.  kwmonroe and I looked into the DB2 documentation last night, and you _can_ create different instances, and it appears you can create different instances.  What Kevin and I discussed last night was to have one instance but different database names to make it work more like the other databases we are familiar with.
[15:25] <suchvenu> ok. So one instance name and have mulitple user names to connect to same is what you are proposing.
[15:26] <suchvenu> Db2 has the feature to create multiple instances, that's the reason i implemented it in that way.
[15:26] <suchvenu> I will relook at this one
[15:26] <mbruzek> suchvenu: After yesterday's read of the documentation, I think different instances may be too complicated and doing different database names is the way to go.  I didn't understand what a different instance was different than a different database
[15:27] <mbruzek> suchvenu: What we found from reading the documentation that you would have to create a different host user for each instance and you could give different memory constraints to each instance.
[15:28] <mbruzek> suchvenu: We thought it would be better to give ALL the memory on the host to the one DB2 instance and just create different databases in the one instance
[15:28] <suchvenu> ok. I will explore this one
[15:28] <suchvenu> On removal of a db2 relation the username and password should be destroyed - This also i am not sure whether it will cause any problem if we delete the user
[15:29] <lazypower> suchvenu - those are 2 separate use cases really, consider the db2 charm implements 2 relationships for the 2 styles of use-case where the regular db: relationship  auto-generates the database for the relating charm, based on that charms name. And each unit joining the conversation gets that database name, and a unique username/password combo per unit. This mimics the MySQL and PostGRES charms behavior which many users/applications will fall
[15:29] <lazypower>  into this category. The DB2 charm only sends a connection string back to the relating charm.
[15:29] <lazypower> Consider another relationship db-programmable: where the relating charm can then send the details of what databases it requires, creating 1-n+1 databases and then hands back the multiple database connection strings on the wire. This gives you a pathway to support both use-cases, single charm, and multiple relations enable the behavior outlined.
[15:30] <mbruzek> suchvenu: The user is overloaded here.  You need to create a user on the host to run the db2 instance, but you can create many database users.  The review comment that we left was to remove the database user when the relation was removed.
[15:36] <mbruzek> suchvenu: not the host user running the db2 instance.
[15:55] <kwmonroe> suchvenu: some confusion might be coming because instance users seem to be both linux system users as well as database users.  do you know if you can create separate database users for a given instance?  (for example, can i create 'kevin' as a database user that can access a db in the 'db2inst1' instance?)
[15:56] <kwmonroe> or does db2 require that database users are also instance users, meaning 'kevin' would have to have his own instance to get his own database?
[16:00] <suchvenu> I had created linus users for the new users i created . I need to explore on whether we can create database users and conenct to the single instance
[16:02] <jacekn> is this a known problem in charms generate using "charm compose"? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/14679942/
[16:03] <lazypower> jacekn - its 'charm build' - and thats a new one. which version of charm tools are you on?
[16:03] <jacekn> lazypower: charm-tools 1.11.1
[16:04] <jacekn> lazypower: wher eare the official docs about "charm build"? links I had saved no longer exist ( https://jujucharms.com/docs/devel/authors-charm-composing/ for example)
[16:05] <lazypower> jacekn  - the devel docs start with building from layers from teh get-started guide - https://jujucharms.com/docs/devel/getting-started
[16:05] <jacekn> that was after I solved this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/14679951/
[16:05] <lazypower> https://jujucharms.com/docs/devel/developer-getting-started
[16:05] <lazypower> rather ^ that is the correct link
[16:06] <tertiary> this is probably more of a maas question, but if i were to use maas+juju to create shared storage with gluster, what happens when we need to upgrade the Ubuntu OS. Wont maas+juju basically destroy the machines and rebuild them with the newest OS version? Consequently destroying the shared data?
[16:06] <lazypower> and there is a deeper dive into layers under its topic page - https://jujucharms.com/docs/devel/developer-layers
[16:08] <lazypower> jacekn - sorry about the moving target, the road to 2.0 and the docs has been a bit of a turbulent ride while we re-work and massage the devel docs.
[16:10] <jacekn> also is it expected that juju-local now uses twice as much space? I think it pulls lxc images to disk and then into mongodb?
[16:12] <suchvenu> So in relation joined hook, the db2 charm will create username, password and a DB name (as per the service name which tries to connect to it ) and when the relation is broken the username needs to be deleted. Also we have only one instance name which will be shared by all users and multiple DBs can be created in the same instance.
[16:13] <suchvenu> the username, password will be provided by the related charm in the relation hooks .
[16:13] <suchvenu> Is that right ?
[16:14] <jacekn> lazypower: so any ideas where to do about that error? I am testing in a fresh trusty environment so it may be affecting all charm authors
[16:15] <lazypower> jacekn - i'm attempting to reproduce now in charmbox. seems to work in the :devel flavor when i update charm-tools from pypi - there's a pip 8.x bug that landed in teh 1.11.x series but that was a complaint about pyyaml verion(s)
[16:15] <lazypower> *versions
[16:15] <lazypower> jacekn what layer are you building with? i'd like to keep this as close to your configuration as possible so i can reproduce
[16:16] <suchvenu> When the relation is broken the db username needs to be deleted without disturbing the DBs.
[16:16] <lazypower> kwmonroe ^
[16:16] <jacekn> lazypower: there is no layer yet, I'm writing one on top of 'layer:basic'
[16:17] <lazypower> tertiary - thats a possibility. Unless you have modeled the storage. And even then i'm not 100% sure. I would certainly bring this up on the mailing list
[16:17] <tertiary> i see, thanks
[16:17] <lazypower> tertiary - i feel like this has been answered before, and posting to the list raises visibility, so they can chime in
[16:17] <suchvenu> If any product needs mutiple DBs with specific names ( like for example IBM MobileServer ) let that service create the required DB as per its requirements.
[16:18] <jacekn> lazypower: is there really no way around installing gcc and pulling packages using pypi? I can see that blocking juju deployments due to security policies in many places
[16:19] <lazypower> jacekn - is this in reference to charm build making the wheelhouse?
[16:19] <mbruzek> suchvenu: reading your questions  now
[16:19] <suchvenu> Matt:Kevin: lazypower: Does it sound ok ?
[16:19] <suchvenu> ok
[16:19] <jacekn> yeah it means software is partially outside of OS security patching coverage
[16:20] <jacekn> lazypower: plus compilers on appservers are considered a security risk in some places
[16:20] <lazypower> jacekn - right. I would certainly bring this up on the list as well as a talking point, i dont know that I have a good answer to that question
[16:21] <jacekn> ack. I'll soon report a but about that ImportError: No module named 'charmhelpers.cli' problem
[16:21] <lazypower> jacekn - and using the vanilla charmbox image, i was able to build both - an empty layer with only a layer.yaml containing " includes: [layer:basic]" , and a few other layers i maintain. No issue with charmhelpers.cli :/
[16:21] <lazypower> are you running in a virtualenv or something similar?
[16:22] <mbruzek> suchvenu: That looks correct, except for the part about the "the username, password will be provided by the related charm in the relation hooks"  the db2 charm will create the username and password, the username and password would not be provided by say the mediawiki charm.
[16:22] <mbruzek> the user/pass would be set on the db2 relation, for the mediawiki charm to read
[16:22] <suchvenu> then how do I take the username and password ? Based on service name ?
[16:23] <jacekn> lazypower: nope but who knows, maybe there is somethin on my test box that would affect "charm build" (kind of another reason to stick to apt-get install in the charm rather than ship depds with the charm)
[16:23] <jacekn> lazypower: I can publish my WIP charm somewhere if you want?
[16:23] <lazypower> sure
[16:23] <suchvenu> I mean how do I select any username for the mediawiki ?
[16:23] <lazypower> jacekn lets try that, maybe theres something hinky in that layer path thats causing the problem
[16:23] <jrwren> jacekn: I share your values and I've tried to avoid even installing pip on some of our charms, but most charm authors don't share these values and so many install python-pip and python-dev which pulls in gcc :(
[16:26] <suchvenu> Also I need to explore whether we can create DB users without creating linux system users. If that is not possible, then I am not sure whether removal of users will cause some issues
[16:26] <suchvenu> when the relation is broken
[16:26] <marcoceppi> suchvenu: MySQL creates a unique database schema for every service connected, and a unique user/pass for that schema for every unit connected
[16:26] <mbruzek> suchvenu: I don't think the linux user is directly related to the database user
[16:26] <jacekn> lazypower: hmm I wonder...I wonder if "charm build" found some junk in my "charms/trusty/<charm>" subdirectory and composed the charm on top of it. Let me verify that maybe that's the cause
[16:28] <suchvenu> Matt: I will check this up
[16:28] <mbruzek> suchvenu: if I remember correctly db2inst1 is running the instance and that is needed to start and stop processes, but the db2admin is not a user on the filesystem.
[16:29] <jacekn> jrwren: yes understood. One other things I would point out is that this will happen on all units. So it's fine for small scale but if you want to deploy 100 units that means dozens of GBs that need to go over the network
[16:30] <jrwren> jacekn: yup. If you solve any of these issues, I look forward to hearing how you did so.
[16:37] <jacekn> jrwren: lazypower: hmm OK then so when I started completely fresh it worked. "charm build" must have composed on top of some old files which caused this problem
[16:37] <jacekn> sorry for the noise
[16:37] <lazypower> jacekn ah i htink i may know the issue then
[16:37] <lazypower> charm build is additive, so if an older dependency is embedded, you need to rm -rf the output charm artifact.  We have an open bug on this, as its not clear that this behavior can lead to unexpected behavior
[16:38] <lazypower> removals are hard :/
[16:38] <jacekn> lazypower: aha! that would make sense, thanks for help. If you find that but # let me know I'll meto
[16:39] <lazypower> jacekn https://github.com/juju/charm-tools/issues/83
[16:42] <jacekn> lazypower: is there anything in LP?
[16:42] <lazypower> charm-tools has migrated over to github afaict
[16:46] <suchvenu> Matt : db2inst1 is the username used to install DB2 and it creates the instance and runs it.
[16:46] <suchvenu> db2admin is a db2 utility
[16:47] <mbruzek> suchvenu: OK.  I meant db2admin as the administrative user for db2 then.
[16:47] <mbruzek> I am not an expert in db2, it was just a guess
[16:50] <suchvenu> No, db2admin user doesn't exist
[16:50] <suchvenu> After installing db2 , I see the following users only :
[16:50] <suchvenu> db2inst1:x:1001:1001::/home/db2inst1: dasusr1:x:1002:1002::/home/dasusr1: db2fenc1:x:1003:1003::/home/db2fenc1: db2usr1:x:1004:1001::/home/db2usr1:
[16:51] <suchvenu> where db2inst1, dasusr1 and db2fenc1 are required for installing db2 and db2usr1 is a new user i created as per the config value in DB2 charm
[16:58] <kwmonroe> yeah suchvenu, mbruzek wasn't suggesting that a 'db2admin' system user should be created.  he just meant that there would be a "db2 admin" as a user that could interact with the database without being a system user.
[17:01] <kwmonroe> suchvenu: according to this, there are no "database users".  authenticating to the database requires a system account: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/data/library/techarticle/dm-0508wasserman/
[17:01] <kwmonroe> "This is different from other database management systems (DBMSs), such as Oracle and SQL Server, where user accounts may be defined and authenticated in the database itself, as well as in an external facility such as the operating system."
[17:04] <kwmonroe> suchvenu: this implies that any new service that connects to db2 will need a new system account.  therefore, in the db relation-joined hook, you should call useradd to create a new user (the username can be a random string), and then call 'db2icrt -u <new-user> <new-user>'.  this will create a db2 instance name based on the new system user you just created.
[17:04] <suchvenu> Kevin : Ok. I was also searching whether we can create database users which are not OS users
[17:05] <suchvenu> right.. I am actually doing this in config changed hook
[17:05] <suchvenu> creating a new user and a new instance
[17:05] <suchvenu> but now that code has to go to relation hook
[17:06] <suchvenu> so in this case when the realtion is broken, and i try to delete the user, it may get into issues
[17:06] <suchvenu> as the db2 instance will be running using this userid
[17:09] <kwmonroe> yeah suchvenu, i suggest you do not remove the system user, but simply drop the instance with 'db2idrop <instance>'
[17:10] <kwmonroe> according to this, the database will remain in tact:  Dropping an instance will not drop your databases, so you will not lose data. You can drop your instance, recreate it and then catalog the databases to make them available. You can use the db2cfexp and db2cfimp commands to export and import instance profiles.
[17:10] <kwmonroe> https://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/#!/SSEPGG_9.5.0/com.ibm.db2.luw.admin.cmd.doc/doc/r0002058.html
[17:12] <cmagina> bundletester is giving me a version conflict error for pyyaml on trusty. it was installed via pip. its looking for 3.11, but 3.10 is installed. the system is a fresh maas deployment to an x86 host
[17:13] <lazypower> tvansteenburgh - is this the same symptom we saw emitting from charm-tools 1.11.x series? ^
[17:13] <suchvenu> ok kwmonroe. I can try this out
[17:15] <tvansteenburgh> cmagina: curious if you installed it in a virtualenv or not
[17:15] <cmagina> tvansteenburgh: just a simple pip install bundletester
[17:16] <tvansteenburgh> cmagina: would you mind trying it in a virtualenv?
[17:16] <cmagina> tvansteenburgh: i can do that
[17:16] <tvansteenburgh> my guess is that pip refused to upgrade the pyyaml system dep that was already installed
[17:17] <suchvenu> kwmonroe: Suppose the related charm needs more than the default db , then its up to that charm to create the DB. DB2 charm will not handle it. Is that approach fine ?
[17:19] <jacekn> where do I report charms.reactive bugs?
[17:19] <jacekn> or "where should I" rather
[17:19] <mbruzek> jacekn: against charm-tools
[17:19] <mbruzek> let me get you a link
[17:20] <mbruzek> jacekn: https://github.com/juju/charm-tools/issues
[17:23] <mbruzek> suchvenu: as long as the database user has the permission to create a database or table that should be fine
[17:25] <suchvenu> Yes the db user has permission to create DB. As per the current implementation where we are not creating any default DB in DB2 charm, we are returnign the db2 user name to the related charm
[17:25] <suchvenu> Using this db2 user the related charm can create DBs
[17:28] <kwmonroe> suchvenu: i think after you create an instance, you will still need to create a db.  but your approach seems fine -- a connecting service should receive the ip, port, user, password, and db name.
[17:28] <suchvenu> yes after creating instance for new user, we need to creatre DB as well.
[17:29] <suchvenu> yes, i was not sending db name . I will add that as well
[17:31] <suchvenu> when we remove the relation the instance name is deleted. Now again if we try to set relation, it will create a new username and instance , right ?
[17:35] <kwmonroe> that's correct suchvenu
[17:35] <suchvenu> i will chk whether the username and instance name exists  and reuse the same if it exists
[17:36] <suchvenu> instead of creating multiple usernames for the same service
[17:36] <suchvenu> i think instance will not have issue, as we are deleting it when the relation is broken
[17:40] <suchvenu> Thanks a lot mbruzek, kwmonroe,lazypower, marcoceppi for your time to clear some of the design related queries i had on DB2 charm. Appreciate your help
[17:43] <suchvenu> I will send updated design doc with the points we discussed today
[17:55] <kwmonroe> thanks suchvenu!!
[18:49] <bolthole> I'd like to write a charm that deploys a webapp to a tomcat service. As such, I think I need to require some kind of relationship between a tomcat charm instance, and my charm, to make sure it gets deployed to the same machine? What should I be looking at for this?
[18:49] <plars> Hi, I'm trying to add an lxc instance to a maas environment with juju-deployer. I have several other ones deployed this exact same with with 'to: lxc:agent-host' in my deployer bundle, so I just copied one of those as I've done before, and made the necessary changes.
[18:49] <plars> but when I try to run juju-deployer, I get an error: 2016-01-28 02:46:03 Invalid service placement snappyx86003 to lxc:agent-host
[18:49] <lazypower> mbruzek - bolthole is asking about tomcat :)
[18:50] <plars> any ideas where to look to figure out what's wrong?
[18:54] <mbruzek> hi bolthole: let me dust that section of my memory off
[18:57] <mbruzek> bolthole: What you are looking for is what Juju calls a subordinate service
[18:57] <mbruzek> https://jujucharms.com/docs/master/authors-subordinate-services
[18:58] <bolthole> Sounds good. thanks
[18:58] <mbruzek> The tomcat charm (written by me) accepts subordinate charms with the juju-info relation.  Look to the openmrs charm for an example.
[18:59] <mbruzek> https://jujucharms.com/openmrs/precise/1
[19:00] <mbruzek> bolthole: It was pointed out to me that tomcat should not use the juju-info relation and instead provide a "webapp" relation or something of that kind, but I have not implemented that yet, and I don't see that in the current cs:trusty/tomcat charm
[19:01] <mbruzek> So that is the way it works now, and if you look at the openmrs code that should help.
[19:02] <mbruzek> bolthole: please let me know if you have any other questions.
[19:02] <bolthole> Hm. Is there really a requirement to have a particular relationship defined in juju, to make use of the subordinate designation?
[19:04] <mbruzek> bolthole: no. But a webapp has some expectations of things (like the directory where it should put the war file).  Currently the openmrs can be a subordinate to any regular charm and that is probably not a good thing.
[19:04] <bolthole> And if there is.. the page you referenced seems to imply I could just define "a standard client-server relation" fpr tjos
[19:04] <bolthole> * for this
[19:05] <mbruzek> bolthole: it probably makes more sense to have tomcat provide a webapp interface and charms that are webapps only consume that
[19:05] <bolthole> ah. so the relationship would define the webapp directory, then
[19:05] <mbruzek> bolthole: yes.  It would be a very basic thing
[19:17] <bolthole> I see that openmrs "requires: tomcat-war:". Wouldnt it be more accurate to say that it *provides* tomcat-war ? And does the other side have to be coded to support the same relation
[19:18] <lazypower> plars - can i see your bundle?
[19:18] <plars> lazypower: sure, one sec...
[19:20] <plars> lazypower: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14681702/
[19:20] <lazypower> plars - try adding the unit number   --to lxc:agent-host/0
[19:20] <plars> lazypower: actually, I am doing it without the bit for deploying agent-host. It's already deployed, but I include it here for clarity
[19:21] <plars> lazypower: I did, same error
[19:21] <lazypower> :-\ hmm... we used the --to operator in our k8s bundle... let me fish that up
[19:21] <lazypower> contrast/compare
[19:21] <plars> lazypower: I've used it *exactly* like this in this same environment on lots of other units
[19:22] <lazypower> yeah, that looks correct
[19:22] <lazypower> looks like there may be a regression or something going on here
[19:22] <lazypower> i'm not positive
[19:22] <lazypower> sorry :(
[19:23] <plars> lazypower: any tips for debugging? or where to go from here?
[19:25] <bolthole> mbruzek: erm. it seems like the tomcat module now already looks for webapp: java-webapp
[19:25] <lazypower> plars not off the top of my head, i've been working with the newer juju deploy bin for the last month or so
[19:25] <lazypower> a lot of that info is now replaced
[19:25] <mbruzek> bolthole: I pulled the trust/tomcat one I don't see that in metadat.yaml, where do you see this?  Are you on precise/tomcat?
[19:26] <plars> lazypower: so is there a better way I should be doing this?
[19:26] <lazypower> plars - aside from upgrading to 2.0-alpha1 and giving it a go
[19:27] <bolthole> I.... think so?  still new to ubuntu. i'm using ubuntu15.10, which I think is "precise", so I was looking at https://jujucharms.com/tomcat/precise/1
[19:27] <lazypower> plars - obv. thats not recommended if this is a production environment
[19:27] <lazypower> bolthole - "wiley" - ftfy :)
[19:27] <plars> lazypower: heh, well it is production, but it's not working
[19:28] <lazypower> bogus :\
[19:28] <bolthole> oh wait. my actual deployed stuff, says verison of tomcat = cs/trusty/tomcat-1
[19:28] <mbruzek> bolthole: yes, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
[19:28] <bolthole> whcih is .. neither precise, nor wily. wth....
[19:29] <mbruzek> bolthole If you deployed "tomcat" you likely got the precise version (12.04) I think that is how juju defaults. I also see the java-webapp in the metadata.yaml for precise/tomcat
[19:29] <bolthole> whatisthisidonteven
[19:30] <mbruzek> bolthole sorry for the confusion.  I think this change is not in the more recent version of tomcat
[19:32] <bolthole> so... precise is the OLDER version ... butit is better for having more logical relations defined?
[19:34] <mbruzek> bolthole: it appears that someone updated the older version of tomcat with the fix I described earlier, but did not move this to the later version of tomcat.
[19:35] <bolthole> and this is extra sad, since I cant seem to use the "change version" to switch to the older version, in juju-gui.
[19:37] <mbruzek> bolthole: Does it matter to you what version of the operating system you have?  precise (12.04) compared to trusty (14.04)?
[19:39] <mbruzek> bolthole you will still get tomcat7 with either install, both should work very well
[19:40] <bolthole> i have no idea.
[19:40] <bolthole> comparing things, I guess my desktop is 15.10...
[19:40] <bolthole> but i've deployed to azure, which uses  14.04.1 ubuntu imags
[19:40] <bolthole> by default, I guess.
[19:41] <rick_h_> marcoceppi: with resources, what's the charm you've got in your mind that would use the most number of individual resources? (/cc lazypower aisrael mbruzek)
[19:41] <lazypower> rick_h_ - easily the big data stack
[19:41] <rick_h_> lazypower: right, so a single service with how many resources declared? 2, 4?
[19:41] <lazypower> rick_h_ - considering each install ships w/ a 90MB JVM + each component has a suite of jars.
[19:41] <lazypower> cory_fu kwmonroe admcleod1  ^ can you chime in on this? like, ballpack
[19:41] <bolthole> mbruzek I still think whoever "fixed" it, fixed it backwards again. the app should be the thing "providing" webapp. :-/
[19:41] <lazypower> *ballpark
[19:42] <marcoceppi> rick_h_: I'd see about 6 at most
[19:42] <rick_h_> marcoceppi: lazypower k, ty for the feedback.
[19:44] <mbruzek> bolthole: the webapp charm will need to require the "webapp" relationship because a relationship needs both sides.
[19:44] <lazypower> rick_h_  - hey i found a good place to look - https://api.jujucharms.com/charmstore/v5/~bigdata-dev/trusty/cloudera-hadoo-yarn-master-0/archive/resources.yaml
[19:44] <cory_fu> rick_h_: The core Hadoop charms have around 9 resources defined currently, most of which are different arch and versions of the libraries
[19:45] <bolthole> mbruzek technically speaking, using java language, I believe the proper terminology would be that it "provides: webcontainer"
[19:45] <cory_fu> lazypower: This is better: https://api.jujucharms.com/charmstore/v5/~bigdata-dev/apache-hadoop-yarn-master/archive/resources.yaml
[19:46] <cory_fu> rick_h_: ^
[19:46] <lazypower> woo
[19:46] <cory_fu> A couple of those are python deps that go away with layers, and there are a couple dupes for handling older charms that don't have  a version specified and will go away
[19:47] <bolthole> Is there a way to search the store for (Charms that use relation: webapp) ?
[19:47] <cory_fu> But at a minimum it will be 7, until we add new supported versions
[19:48] <cory_fu> Or arches
[19:48] <cory_fu> bolthole: You'd want https://jujucharms.com/provides/webapp or https://jujucharms.com/requires/webapp
[19:48] <cory_fu> But neither of those return any results
[19:49] <cory_fu> bolthole: Here's one that has results: https://jujucharms.com/provides/http
[19:50] <bolthole> got it thanks.
[19:50] <cory_fu> bolthole: You can discover this on the store by going to a charm that you know of that uses a given interface and clicking on the link in the "Connects to:" section on the right, just above the files list
[19:51] <bolthole> thanks
[19:51] <bolthole> so if I want to file a bug "please provide webcontainer", should I do it against tomcat or tomcat7 charm?
[19:52] <bolthole> seems like the tomcat7 writeup suggests tomcat. but the tomcat code seems in chaos  ;-}
[19:53] <cory_fu> lazypower, mbruzek: ^
[19:54] <cory_fu> I think that https://jujucharms.com/tomcat/trusty is the most recent
[19:54] <cory_fu> But I defer to those who have actually worked on it
[19:54] <bolthole> contrariwise... if I want to submit code... can I do that? It seems like stuff owned by "charmers" has some kind of extraspecial layer where people cant submit proposed stuffs through the normal process
[19:54] <mbruzek> bolthole I did a diff between precise and trusty on the tomcat charm.  Only that webapp relation is different
[19:58] <mbruzek> bolthole: do not use tomcat7 that is deprecated, use trusty/tomcat and I can move the fix for precise forward.
[20:00] <lazypower> bolthole - you are correct that "charmer" owned charms have a layer of "special" - they are reviewed and curated charms. You can propose fixes against them through a traditional launchpad merge proposal. This process will change sometime near APril, but we will have docs in place for that process change.
[20:00] <lazypower> bolthole there's docs on contributing here: https://jujucharms.com/docs/devel/authors-charm-store#submitting
[20:00] <lazypower> bolthole - but if this is only to scratch an itch where you dont want a review to block you, you can always publish to your personal namespace, which is covered in the doc as well
[20:16] <bolthole> mbruzek i can wait for the official code fix, thats fine.... Just please fix the naming ;)
[20:16] <mbruzek> bolthole what naming?
[20:17] <bolthole> the usage is backwards. tomcat needs to require 'webapp', not provide it.  Or, it could provide 'webcontainer'
[20:17] <mbruzek> bolthole: that is not wrong, that is a Juju convention.
[20:17] <bolthole> nooo... what i described, matches mysql usage
[20:18] <mbruzek> bolthole: tomcat provides a webapp relationship, that webapps can require.
[20:18] <bolthole> i compared with that first ;)
[20:19] <bolthole> look at it this way.  wordpress is an aplication, that requires a database (mysql) to run. It *requires* mysql
[20:19] <kwmonroe> i think the confusion here is because we're talking about a subordinate relation to tomcat.
[20:19] <bolthole> openmrs is a webapp, that requires a webcontainer (like tomcat) to run. therefore, it *requires* webcontainer
[20:19] <kwmonroe> so bolthole, it is actually correct as written -- tomcat is "providing the ability for a java-webapp to be connected"
[20:20] <bolthole> tomcat is not providing an ability, it is providing a platform/service. just like mysql provides a platform/service.
[20:21] <kwmonroe> yeah, i get the overall descriptions you're using, but when you're talking about a juju charm being subordinate to another, the principal provides that interface, the subordinate requires it.
[20:22] <bolthole> yes. exactly.  tomcat is the principle. it provides webcontainer.   any webapp, Requires a webcontainer to run
[20:22] <bolthole> so rename webapp to webcontainer, and it's all good
[20:24] <kwmonroe> oh, sure - i don't have any skin in the naming of the relation.. just trying to explain why provides/requires may seem reversed in a principal/subordinate context.
[20:24] <bolthole> got it
[20:35] <cmagina> tvansteenburgh: i tested it in a virtualenv and hit the same issue
[20:55] <bolthole> awwright... I have used bzr to make myself a local clone thingie, and made the trivial code changes. trying to push it up to my "personal space"... but its giving me permission denied?
[20:55] <bolthole> ("Cannot create branch at /~s-phil-s/charms/blahblah")
[21:01] <bolthole> lazypower I did try to carefully follow the instructions at that url. but it doesnt seem to work :(
[21:01] <kwmonroe> bolthole: is the ssh-key (~/.ssh/id_?rs.pub) listed in your launchpad account?
[21:01] <bolthole> yes
[21:02] <kwmonroe> bolthole: what's the push command you gave?  just 'bzr push'?
[21:02] <bolthole> ( ssh missing, gives an explicit "you havent registered any keys" error ;)
[21:02] <bolthole> I did a very explicit push as follows:
[21:03] <bolthole> bzr push lp:~s-phil-s/charms/tomcat/trunk.
[21:04] <kwmonroe> hmph, that's looks legit
[21:04] <lazypower> newp
[21:04] <lazypower> missing series
[21:04] <kwmonroe> ah
[21:04] <kwmonroe> bzr push lp:~s-phil-s/charms/trusty/tomcat/trunk
[21:04] <kwmonroe> bolthole: give that a try ^
[21:05] <bolthole> tried it. nope.
[21:05] <bolthole> oh qr
[21:05] <bolthole> wait
[21:05] <bolthole> differnt error
[21:06] <bolthole> "project s-phil-s does not exist"
[21:06] <bolthole> oops typo
[21:06] <bolthole> added tilde back... and it works
[21:06] <bolthole> thats annoying. i thought launchpad was more free-form
[21:08] <kwmonroe> i think it's more restrictive with charms because the ingestion process that scrapes launchpad to pick up namespaced charms needs them in a specific structure -- charms/series/foo/trunk
[21:10] <kwmonroe> alternatively bolthole, if you didn't want to wait for your modified charm to hit the charm store, you can deploy a local charm with "JUJU_REPOSITORY=~/charms juju deploy local:trusty/<newtomcat>"
[21:10] <bolthole> naw I can wait a bit. and want to do this right anyways
[21:10] <kwmonroe> cool
[21:11] <bolthole> so, now, do I do the "proposal to merge" from my branch, or from the main one?
[21:12] <bolthole> the "propose merge" stuff on the web, is a little.. lacking in documentation
[21:12] <kwmonroe> bolthole: you'd do it from your branch.. click the "Propose for merging" link here: https://code.launchpad.net/~s-phil-s/charms/trusty/tomcat/trunk
[21:12] <bolthole> ah okay, now it looks more helpful then :)
[21:13] <bolthole> although I also pushed a precise branch. which one is better? I would think the precise one since thats where charms/tomcat seems to redirect to, but iunno
[21:15] <kwmonroe> well, generally speaking, you'd propose your precise branch into lp:charms/precise/tomcat and your trusty branch into lp:charms/trusty/tomcat.. but in this case, mbruzek already has you beat ;)  he's testing a similiar change to those branches at this very moment.
[21:15] <bolthole> kewl. well, good practice either way :)
[21:17] <kwmonroe> that's the spirit!!  and thanks for bringing this up.. it's the right way to handle webapp subordinates in tomcat. (vs a more generic interface)
[21:27] <jw4> I'm considering using juju to deploy a few services in mesos/marathon, including a webservice app, front end app, postgres, and a cassandra cluster.  Does this even sound reasonable, or would it be too much hassle to use juju to deploy through mesos/marathon?
[21:29] <tvansteenburgh> cmagina: weird. i'll try it in a clean container and see if i can figure out what's happening
[21:29] <cmagina> tvansteenburgh: ok, thanks
[21:33] <firl> anyone know where a list of “actions” that I can send to my openstack charms for neutron would be?
[21:34] <rick_h_> firl: "juju action defined $servicename"
[21:35] <firl> ty
[21:35] <rick_h_> np
[21:43] <firl> anyone know how to have neutron recreate qdhcp/qrouter besides uninstall and reinstall with juju?
[22:00] <lazypower> jw4 - that would be an excellent question on the juju mailing list. one of our isv partners has been working in marathon/juju land for the last 4 months
[22:00] <jw4> lazypower: cool.. will do
[22:00] <lazypower> jw4 - they don't idle on irc, but with a mailing list post, i can signpost them to it.
[22:00] <jw4> +1
[22:01] <lazypower> :) happy to help. ping me when you've sent so i do it before i forget.
[22:02] <jw4> will do - is that https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/juju or https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/juju-dev?
[22:04] <jw4> uh oh
[22:04] <jw4> now I'm in trouble
[22:04] <lazypower> \o/ man its been a while :D
[22:04] <jw4> :)
[22:05] <jw4> yep; I miss this team :)
[22:11] <mbruzek> bolthole: I created 2 Merge proposals for the problems we discussed today, https://code.launchpad.net/~mbruzek/charms/trusty/tomcat/trunk/+merge/284189
[22:13] <mbruzek> bolthole: https://code.launchpad.net/~mbruzek/charms/precise/tomcat/trunk/+merge/284188
[22:13] <mbruzek> bolthole: Please take a look and let me know if that was in-line from what you suggested.
[22:23] <jw4> lazypower: sent: subject "Mesos / Marathon with Juju"
[22:37] <cory_fu> So, has anyone tried to deal with upgrading an existing deployed service from a non-layered charm to a layered charm?
[22:38] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: nope >:D
[22:40] <cory_fu> I'm running into a pretty big road block because the interface states (well, all of the states) need to be reconstructed without the chain of hooks actually being invoked
[22:41] <cory_fu> Is it reasonable as a community to say that upgrading from non-layered to layered charms just isn't feasible?
[22:43] <cory_fu> marcoceppi: ^?
[22:54] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: it's possible. but couldn't upgrade hook do this?
[22:54] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: the only thing it cant' really do is relation stuff
[22:55] <marcoceppi> can't really do *easily*
[22:56] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: want to jump on a hangout in like 5 mins?
[22:56] <marcoceppi> maybe 10 mins
[23:03] <lazypower> jw4 done and done
[23:06] <jw4> awesome sauce
[23:11] <cory_fu> marcoceppi: You up for that hangout?