[01:07] <gary_poster> hi :-)
[11:14] <gary_poster> cat -> vet.  might be a hair late to start but shouldn't be too bad.
[13:06] <benji> bac: do you want an email brain dump about the backfill branch or a call about it?
[13:06] <bac> benji: chat i guess
[13:07] <benji> bac: ok, I'll create a hangout
[13:07] <bac> ok, give me 2 minutes
[13:08] <benji> bac: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/2db6f1f3bd754cfc2427148bdc58022605d3e851?hl=en when you are available
[13:30] <bac> benji: i just lost that file.  stupid hangouts.
[13:43] <bac> hi gary_poster, you around?
[13:44] <gary_poster> bac, yeah, hey
[13:44] <bac> cool, it was just awful quiet here.  :)
[13:44] <rick_h_> ssshhhhh
[13:44] <bac> gary_poster: i logged my swap day in c.a. from today to day after t'giving
[13:45] <bac> for those of you with nothing else to worry about, BART is contemplating a strike.  http://nyti.ms/1ekVjHd
[13:45] <gary_poster> bac, saw, had not gotten around to approving, but just did.  thank you!
[13:45] <rick_h_> yea, and my wife is freaking out over the dry ice 'bomb' in LAX
[13:45] <rick_h_> gotta love travel
[13:45] <bac> rick_h_: i don't know that one
[13:46] <rick_h_> http://r.bmark.us/u/2cabf797b26f4a
[13:46] <rick_h_> hmm, kind of did a sucky job parsing that one :/ /me files a bug
[13:47] <rick_h_> http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-airport-ice-bomb-20131013,0,1098000.story
[13:49] <bac> so an "explosion" that did no damage but made a lot of noise.
[13:49] <rick_h_> yea
[13:49] <bac> not really what you want in an airport, though
[13:51] <bac> gary_poster: just noticed staging.jc.com is down.  investigating.
[13:52] <bac> manage.jc.com is happy
[13:54] <gary_poster> thanks bac
[14:09] <bac> staging is happy again.  just had to reboot the elasticsearch instance.  curtis' "debugging staging" document to the rescue.
[14:26] <rick_h_> yay thanks bac
[14:27] <gary_poster> jujugui, charm branch for review: https://codereview.appspot.com/14425057
[14:27] <bac> gary_poster: i'll do it
[14:27] <gary_poster> thanks bac
[14:54] <bac> gary_poster: code looks good. doing qa now.  have one question about the release_expression regex.  it seems to only be applied to the embedded release file.  why do need to continue supporting tgz if that is the case?
[14:58] <gary_poster> bac, 'cause we have one now that is tgz.  I could remove that from regex once the charm includes xz, as a separate branch
[14:59] <bac> gary_poster: but why not swap them out in this branch?
[14:59] <bac> gary_poster: doesn't matter, of course
[15:01] <gary_poster> bac, I could.  I've thought about it.  I'd have to switch to the 0.10.1 tag, apply the new Makefile, make a new dist, copy that over to the charm, and test.  seemed like enough work that doing it separately made sense
[15:01] <gary_poster> bac, or waiting for 0.11
[15:01] <bac> ok
[15:03] <gary_poster> bac, could you do https://codereview.appspot.com/14494056 too?  It's the gui diff you are already looking at
[15:03] <gary_poster> 1 line :-)
[15:34] <bac> gary_poster: sure.  (sorry i didn't see this earlier)
[15:35] <gary_poster> thx np
[15:36] <bac> gary_poster: still qa'ing. slow, slow.
[15:37] <bac> gary_poster: did you ever ask juju-core about the whether deploy downloads the charm locally?
[15:41] <gary_poster> bac, I did ask.  they do. :-(
[15:45] <bac> that's crazy.  i wonder if it changed?
[15:50] <gary_poster> jujugui call in 10
[15:50] <Makyo> jujugui call in 10
[15:50] <Makyo> DAmnit
[15:50] <gary_poster> hah HAH!
[15:50] <rick_h_> oooh, gary_poster takes the early weekly lead catching Makyo getting coffee
[15:51] <Makyo> I thought it was a text, so I looked at my phone rather than acting!  Sigh.
[15:57] <rick_h_> hah, now we're going to have to watch for false alarms. gary_poster will start texting Makyo an hour before stand up to confuse him
[15:58] <gary_poster> mwa ha ha
[15:58] <gary_poster> jujugui call in 2!
[15:58] <Makyo> Trying to figure out how to change the vibration pattern on my phone.
[15:58] <gary_poster> lol
[16:07] <antdillon> Hey, is there a gui var that stores the path from the URL?
[16:08] <rick_h_> antdillon: window.location
[16:08] <rick_h_> antdillon: well I guess depends on what you're looking for
[16:08] <rick_h_> antdillon: the browser path? or the overall domain url, or something
[16:08] <antdillon> rick_h_, That will work but just wondered it there was a system config var that would hold it
[16:09] <rick_h_> antdillon: which part of the url are you looking to get?
[16:09] <antdillon> I just want onboarding to be rendered if for example the url is localhost:8888/ and not if there is any path after
[16:10] <antdillon> rick_h_, I can use window.location but figured it better to use the initial config's if possible
[16:11] <antdillon> rick_h_, So onboarding doesnt display if the url is: http://localhost:8888/fullscreen/
[16:11] <antdillon> rick_h_, Or http://localhost:8888/precise/juju-gui-77/
[16:12] <antdillon> rick_h_, Happy to use window.location though if that is how other views do it
[16:13] <rick_h_> antdillon: ic, hmmm. I'd just start out with window.location for now I think
[16:13] <antdillon> rick_h_, Cool thanks
[16:49] <bac> gary_poster: my qa deploy still has juju-gui in 'pending'.  seems like its been a really long time, though i didn't note the start.  going to eat now, will restart after lunch if no progress
[16:54] <gary_poster> bac that's weird.  it is fast for me
[16:54] <gary_poster> bac, faster than before
[16:55] <gary_poster> bac, I was using an ec2 environment fwiw
[16:55] <bac> gary_poster: me too
[16:55] <gary_poster> :-/ dunno
[16:55] <bac> i'll review what i did.  pebcak a possiblity
[17:15] <gary_poster> bcsaller, I don't understand why the gui-x/gui-y annotations shouldn't be the right thing to export.  You said we strip those annotations off?  It seems like we ought to keep them
[17:15]  * gary_poster looks for code
[17:16] <bcsaller> gary_poster: they are, but the current draw code removes them on apply, this just polls the current position from the client and adds them to the export
[17:16] <bcsaller> gary_poster: the code path I'm working on now doesn't remove those annotations though
[17:16] <bcsaller> but the logic is different
[17:16] <gary_poster> bcsaller, ah, excellent, that sounds very much like the right thing to do
[17:17] <bcsaller> just hard to get right so far, getting closer though I think
[17:18] <gary_poster> bcsaller, cool, thx.  so this initial patch from you is really a band-aid.  I'll try to decide what to do with it, but I'll move to something else for now
[17:18] <gary_poster> (hoping that you get the better fix ready soon)
[17:19] <bcsaller> yeah, I hope so too, this change is more disruptive and will need more QA, that one just quickly gets export values out
[17:19] <gary_poster> ack
[17:33] <gary_poster> jujugui, filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239783 fwiw.
[17:33] <_mup_> Bug #1239783: CLI deploy command downloads charms to local system and then uploads to environment <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239783>
[17:34] <Makyo> I fear we may have awakened some eldrich horror with this bug http://ubuntuone.com/0Nki2dkLSmnKb2A0OvWLTs
[17:34] <rick_h_> Makyo: man, I'm having double dispatch flashbacks like that
[17:34] <bcsaller> and my sanity slips away
[17:41] <Makyo> AHA
[17:51] <rick_h_> bac: got a sec, want a second opinion on this
[17:52] <bac> rick_h_: sure, just a minute
[17:54] <bac> gary_poster: my second attempt launched just fine, so qa ok.
[17:54] <bac> rick_h_: what's up?
[17:55] <rick_h_> bac: quick hangout?
[17:55] <bac> sure
[17:55] <rick_h_> bac: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9f3a5023b9270776d0b5bac6934f305d4332cf96?hl=en
[17:57] <bcsaller> Makyo: what do you think about a 1sec timer after a drag event where we are still in a drag state, DRAG_ENDING, where we ignore annotation changes till it times out?
[18:00] <Makyo> bcsaller, uh, give me a sec to think about it.  Found a solution for bug-at-hand, want to get test down 1st
[18:00] <bcsaller> righto
[18:03] <gary_poster> thanks bac.
[18:21] <Makyo> bcsaller, okay with another drag state set we send annotations and unset in CB. Then can check that in updateServiceNodes.
[18:22] <Makyo> Thinking about timer.
[18:22] <bcsaller> Makyo: yeah, I basically did it that way, I think it helps with some of the drag, anno delta, drag races we see
[18:26] <Makyo> Yeah
[19:28] <gary_poster> Hey Makyo, do you want me to take reviewing frankban's branch, or do you think you will get to it before your EoD?
[19:29] <Makyo> gary_poster, proposing now, will review in ~ 1min.
[19:29] <gary_poster> great! thx
[20:08] <gary_poster> Makyo, still not out of the woods with positioning on your branch, unfortunately--have you deployed Benji's wiki bundle and then tried to drag services?--but can you give me qa instructions for what you did fix?
[20:09] <Makyo> gary_poster, initial load from a real environment with position-annotated services.
[20:09] <gary_poster> I went for the bug I already knew about
[20:09] <gary_poster> Makyo, ok will try, thanks.
[20:09] <Makyo> Reviewing, then onto the rest of the position bug.
[20:10] <gary_poster> cool
[20:10] <rick_h_> bac: review time today or in the morning? https://codereview.appspot.com/14441069/
[20:11] <rick_h_> bac: going to head to EOD, put in lbox with reviewer notes
[20:11] <bac> rick_h_: ok, either today or the morning
[20:11] <rick_h_> bac: np, thanks
[20:12] <bac> rick_h_: but i don't understand your request about lbox
[20:12] <rick_h_> bac: just fyi, I putt the review in lbox and added reviewer notes (vs LP based review)
[20:13] <bac> rick_h_: so you're saying i need to read the launchpad merge proposal too?
[20:13] <bac> oooo,nm
[20:13] <rick_h_> bac: no, just normally we've been doing LP only reviews for charmworld
[20:13] <rick_h_> bac: but I got lbox going in my lxc and decided it'd be nicer/easier there. Link is to reitveld
[20:13] <bac> rick_h_: ok, but you can't use lbox submit
[20:13] <rick_h_> bac: k, all good.
[20:13] <rick_h_> bac: just trying to make it easier for you to read :)
[20:14] <bac> rick_h_: that'll clobber the lander and then aaron will clobber you
[20:14] <rick_h_> bac: understood
[20:14] <gary_poster> he has that plugin to help
[20:14] <gary_poster> aaron does
[20:14] <bac> gary_poster: oh did that happen?
[20:14] <gary_poster> yeah
[20:14] <bac> never got it
[20:14] <bac> would be nice
[20:15] <bac> maybe we can get him to show us next week
[20:15] <gary_poster> I think I blogged about it.  was a while ago.
[20:15] <bac> if it isn't obvious
[20:15] <rick_h_> yea, I remember him doing it. Didn't mess with it at the time because I was doing full gui work then
[20:15] <gary_poster> bac http://jujugui.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/thanks-to-diogo-matsubara-well-be-migrating-to/
[20:16] <bac> nice, i'll be trying that out!
[20:28] <gary_poster> Makyo, every time I add or adjust a second ghost on a real environment in your branch, the whole canvas moves around--seeming to center incorrectly.  Is that a problem with trunk as well?  I can't dupe in the sandbox of your branch or trunk.
[20:28] <gary_poster> I can switch to trunk if you are not sure
[20:29] <gary_poster> Makyo, also the initial position of the juju-gui service is off
[20:29] <gary_poster> that is, when I drag it, it is dragged from a different position
[20:30] <gary_poster> I can switch to a branch
[20:30] <gary_poster> I mean switch to trunk
[20:30] <Makyo> gary_poster, Can't dupe the first, give me a sec on the second.
[20:30] <Makyo> I'm running from local, sorry
[20:31] <gary_poster> Makyo np.  it looks like, after you have placed the juju-gui charm, the first problem goes away.
[20:31] <gary_poster> I mean, manually placed, and encountered bug #2.  Once you encounter bug #2, bug #2 and bug #1 cannot be duped anymore
[20:33] <gary_poster> oh weird, #2 is still a bug
[20:34] <gary_poster> I mean, I can't dupe #1 any more, but I can still dupe bug #2
[20:43] <gary_poster> Makyo trying to dupe with trunk, using fresh env
[20:53] <gary_poster> Makyo both of those bugs are in trunk.  qa ok for your branch
[20:55] <Makyo> I would say "whew", but I'm not sure that's good.  AT least this is a quick fix for one thing that  can land :)
[20:55] <gary_poster> exactly
[20:57] <gary_poster> Makyo, should we have another brainstorm meeting?  I'm tempted to try and dig into this further; it certainly is the only area I know of where we have showstoppers, and it is also affecting the bundle work.  I might tackle things from the bundle deployment perspective.  Are you looking at things from there?
[20:58] <gary_poster> Whether or not I tackle things is a separate question from whether you would feel a meeting was helpful)
[20:59] <Makyo> Yeah, can we do a quick meeting?  If there's a separation of things bundle/not-bundle, I can grab the not for now, if you want to get from the bundle side.  Otherwise, just triage.
[20:59] <gary_poster> cool Makyo.  https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/10fe9c48d75b9ebbe273219cb03f4e53869ce4f7
[22:04] <huwshimi> Morning
[22:17] <bcsaller> Makyo: have you seen the issue where initial placement after import is confused due to the annotations not being available on the service in its first delta?
[22:18] <bac> hi huwshimi
[22:19] <Makyo> bcsaller, haven't done much with import yet, unfortunately.  However, the part I'm working on (deploying from CLI, which leads to service deltas with no annotations) may get that incidentally?
[22:19] <bcsaller> yes
[22:19] <bcsaller> I think the draw code is hitting the semantic difference in having annotations on the initial object and being in another call/delta
[22:20] <bcsaller> from the way PyJuju did it
[22:20] <bcsaller> I'm wondering about delaying the initial draw to see if we can get annotations later (next delta for example)
[22:21] <huwshimi> bac: Hey there.
[22:21] <bcsaller> otherwise we draw with pack and then update to the annotation
[22:21] <huwshimi> bac: Do you have a timeline for needing those import/export icons? I've currently prioritised them below some other work, but if you need them soon I can get on it.
[22:23] <bcsaller> we currently save the position after a pack placement which can now conflict with the annotation set by the import (as that happens later now)
[22:29] <bcsaller> Makyo, gary_poster maybe when you have a second you can run through some placement tests on lp:~bcsaller/juju-gui/exportXY/ and see if the behavior makes sense. There are fewer special cases in the code.
[22:29] <Makyo> bcsaller, sure, give me a second to switch.
[23:11] <Makyo> bcsaller, looks okay against a real env so far.
[23:11] <Makyo> Wil lkeep poking, little slow since James just got home.
[23:11] <bcsaller> Makyo: ahh, thank you
[23:56] <gary_poster> bcsaller, qa looks fantastic to me
[23:56] <bcsaller> ahh, great, doing some cleanups to get all the tests passing, seeing some failures after I merged trunk
[23:56] <bcsaller> but I'll propose soon
[23:56] <bcsaller> and I think the code is cleaner
[23:56] <gary_poster> awesome
[23:56] <gary_poster> thanks bcsaller!


[00:07] <xu-help40w> HEY DO OLD UPDATES DELETE AFTER NEW ONES COME
[00:07] <xu-help40w> I JUST HAD 1 FOR 112 MB
[00:16] <arraybolt3> Copies of the older package installers may be left in the apt cache, but I believe the yare eventually deleted.
[00:17] <arraybolt3> The actual installed files are overwritten in the update process.
[00:17] <arraybolt3> xu-help40w: ^
[00:37] <xu-help40w> (y)
[03:46] <minusAbyss> hello
[09:19] <prnicki> hello guys am new with xubuntu
[09:32] <prnicki> am stuck on which way to go when setting passwords in xubuntu folders
[09:32] <prnicki> any help would be appreciated
[09:43] <Kuschelpony> Hello prnicki, this is just to welcome you and to say you might need a bit patience as the peple here wo really know stuff might need some time
[14:50] <fab161> Hello everybody. I just installed Xubuntu 22.04.2 and everything went fine. However, the package "chromium-browser" got installed, whereas Chromium is not shown in the menu system. Now I'm a little bit confused. :)
[14:52] <fab161> Also I'd suggest to include the package "qt5-gtk2-platformtheme" by default. If it is not installed, qt5 applications do not follow the gtk theme.
[15:36] <fab161> #ubuntu
[15:36] <fab161> Sorry, tried to join a channel
[21:14] <xu-irc57w> forget password
[21:16] <xu-irc57w> password
[21:22] <arraybolt3> xu-irc57w: You need help resetting your system's password?


[00:09] <tonyyarusso> eh, the button order is just a gconf key.
[01:02] <Takyoji> Any interesting April Fools' at all?
[01:02] <Takyoji> I've already seen Slashdot, Ars Technica, the new RFC, xkcd, canvasdemos.com, and deviantART
[01:02] <Takyoji> and Thinkgeek
[01:03] <Takyoji> and Gmail
[01:27] <kermit> oh i like the new xkcd interface
[01:27] <kermit> i hope thats not just for today
[01:27] <kermit> i never really got used to this pointy clicky stuff
[01:28] <Takyoji> I typically prefer a GUI interface; but the xkcd theme I absolutely love. xP
[01:29] <kermit> HAHA i just started trying to page up using ctrl-a { up, and shift pageup.
[01:29] <kermit> Takyoji: you must be young ;p
[01:29] <Takyoji> The Linux kernel is a few months older than I. :P
[01:56] <Takyoji> Apparently the Facebook interface now uses Bing for web searches..
[01:57] <tonyyarusso> Facebook does web searches?
[02:00] <Takyoji> When you do a search, sometimes it may aggregate results for a web search
[02:01] <Takyoji> And whenever you do a search on Facebook, there's an option to do solely a web search
[02:34] <kermit> Takyoji: i'm older than BSD
[02:41] <Takyoji> heh http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2050855
[02:42] <tonyyarusso> I'm older than Linux!
[02:46] <Takyoji> heh http://tremulous.net/
[20:45] <Obsidian1723> .
[20:48] <tonyyarusso> And you're still right where you started!
[20:49] <Obsidian1723> man 10.04 is gonna be a support nightmare if some things dont change.


[06:00] <slangasek> infinity: do you know of any reason that libc6-dbgsym would be missing for the most recent version in artful?
[06:12] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: libvirt (xenial-proposed/main) [1.3.1-1ubuntu10.13 => 1.3.1-1ubuntu10.14] (ubuntu-server, virt)
[06:12] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: libvirt (zesty-proposed/main) [2.5.0-3ubuntu5.4 => 2.5.0-3ubuntu5.5] (ubuntu-server, virt)
[09:15] <LocutusOfBorg> autopkgtest for snapd/2.27+17.10: amd64: Pass, armhf: Always failed, i386: Regression ♻ , ppc64el: Pass, s390x: Always failed
[09:15] <LocutusOfBorg> please ignore on i386 or forcebad or update the hint?
[09:23] <apw> LocutusOfBorg, why ?
[09:33] <LocutusOfBorg> apw, seems broken in release, I'm running a test
[09:44] <apw> LocutusOfBorg, i have poked the package owner who thinks that is transitory and retrying
[09:55] <LocutusOfBorg> still failing AFAICS
[10:02] <infinity> tjaalton: I think it's poor messaging to tell vendors that the HWE stack is only supported "for 6mo".  In fact, moving to the rolling model was meant to fix that.
[10:03] <infinity> tjaalton: The HWE stack is now supported for the life of the LTS, it just so happens that the versions increment.
[10:03] <infinity> tjaalton: (but hey, we only support vim or firefox or glibc if you're on the latest version we ship too)
[10:05] <tjaalton> infinity: well, "supported" in this case means they need to adjust when it rolls
[10:05] <infinity> tjaalton: Or, perhaps worded differently, anyone who thinks we support snapshots of package sets in time is wrong (and, indeed, I've seen much evidence that larger vendors think we support everything on a given ISO, even if they never run apt after install).
[10:05] <infinity> tjaalton: Sure, yes.  The HWE stack isn't *stable*, but it is *supported*.
[10:06] <infinity> I wish it could be both, but the former sort of runs counter to the point of it.
[10:06] <tjaalton> right, bad wording on my part
[10:06] <tjaalton> "6mo lifespan" was what they said
[10:07] <infinity> tjaalton: Also, speaking of Certain Vendors(tm) who I won't talk smack about in a public channel, is there any chance of getting them to ship their drivers in the distro so they can get per-kernel CI for free? :P
[10:07] <apw> infinity, the bit about that wording that is worrying is it would be reasonable to interpret that 16.04.3 is supported for 5 years from its release
[10:07] <infinity> I mean, it's not just major kernel versions where we break DKMS.  Sometimes is Just Happens because of an intrusive backport on a stable branch.
[10:08] <tjaalton> infinity: we'll see about that
[10:08] <infinity> apw: Oh, sure, I wasn't taking issue with fixing the 16.04.3 wording, I was taking issue with Timo's follow-up comment that HWE is supported for 6mo. ;)
[10:08] <infinity> tjaalton: I mean, I'd love it shipped in the distro, but if that can't happen, I'd honestly be open to working with them to get them hooked into some CI with us, and also help them get a proper apt archive for their stuff.
[10:09] <infinity> tjaalton: Cause that level of breakage reflects poorly on us both.
[10:11] <tjaalton> sure does
[10:11] <tjaalton> things are on the planning phase atm
[10:14] <infinity> tjaalton: Worst case, if they weren't comfy with us distrbuting (and the broad license that would have to go with that), stuffing their things in a private PPA and running some private autopkgtest jobs against it for new kernels would probably work.
[10:16] <tjaalton> alright
[10:18] <infinity> tjaalton: Oh, and while I'm tying up loose ends from the point release... Any movement on the unforunate nouveau rendering bug?
[10:18] <tjaalton> infinity: no, the reporter refuses to file it upstream
[10:19] <tjaalton> "what's the point"
[10:19] <tjaalton> so, meh
[10:19] <infinity> File it for them?
[10:19] <infinity> I mean, it affects lots of people, I assume.
[10:19] <tjaalton> it'd just rot
[10:19] <infinity> Does the bug exist in current mesa too, or only on that stable branch?
[10:21] <tjaalton> yeah current upstream is broken too
[10:21] <infinity> Fun.
[10:21] <tjaalton> I talked to them
[10:22] <tjaalton> the bug is limited to this older gen GF
[10:23] <tjaalton> apparently
[10:23] <tjaalton> which the devs don't havce
[10:23] <tjaalton> have
[10:23] <tjaalton> GF7, released in 2005
[10:24] <tjaalton> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mesa/+bug/1704596/comments/7
[10:40] <infinity> tjaalton: Ahh, the lack of hardware on which to test certainly makes it more problematic.
[10:41] <infinity> tjaalton: I'd offer to help if I had anything of that generation, but I'm pretty sure I don't.
[10:41] <tjaalton> also, they'd need apitrace of it, not gonna run ubuntu
[10:42] <tjaalton> anyway, since it has a working blob..
[10:42] <infinity> For now.
[10:43] <tjaalton> there's another on a 10y old radeon where gtk3 tooltips are corrupted, has a proposed patch already I think
[10:43] <infinity> But grudgingly also agreed that 12yo hardware isn't our biggest concern.
[10:43] <tjaalton> exactly
[10:44] <infinity> I wonder if maybe these sorts of things are more appropriately quirked in higher level UI bits.
[10:44] <infinity> I mean, sure, game rendering would still suck, but playing games on 12yo hardware is kinda "you get what you (don't) pay for".
[10:45] <infinity> But it's not uncommon for one of our competitors to, eg, look at your model/generation of card and just turn off some pretty.
[10:46] <tjaalton> there are some quirks shipped with mesa
[10:47] <infinity> Ahh, I meant more at a unity/gnome-shell level where they can just say "oh, you have crap hardware, you don't get shadows", etc.
[10:47] <infinity> Which could just be an age cutoff because, frankly, rendering shadows under 30 windows is hideously taxing on old GPUs too, even when it's not buggy.
[10:48] <tjaalton> ah, right
[11:02] <LocutusOfBorg> apw, how do you feel about demoting camitk to proposed until the gcc-7 ITK sadness is sorted out, so we can progress with dbus and qt5.9 transition?
[11:06] <apw> it doesn't sound liek the sort of thing that has a wide range of users, but i see it has some reverse-depends too
[11:08] <LocutusOfBorg> all of them blocked by the insighttoolkit4/gdcm/castxml sadness?
[11:08] <apw> LocutusOfBorg, i am not unsympathetic, i am unable to build a kernel any more because of gcc-7
[11:09] <LocutusOfBorg> The removal of insighttoolkit4 will also cause the removal of (transitive) reverse dependencies: ants camitk elastix fw4spl ginkgocadx itksnap nifti2dicom otb plastimatch vmtk
[11:10] <LocutusOfBorg> this is what I would demote for some days, it is broken and blocking other things...
[11:10] <LocutusOfBorg> castxml is ongoing by upstream/debian and will probably unblock all of them
[11:10] <LocutusOfBorg> apw, I can agree your frustration wrt kernel and gcc-7
[11:10] <LocutusOfBorg> I tried to help, but I failed :/
[11:12] <apw> LocutusOfBorg, so just castxml and its reverse depends would unblock you ?
[11:13] <LocutusOfBorg> apw, e5dfa3f902b9a642ae8c6997d57d7c41e384a90b wrt linux?
[11:13]  * LocutusOfBorg leaves for lunch
[11:13] <LocutusOfBorg> apw, I think so, yes
[11:14] <apw> LocutusOfBorg, yep one of many fixes we will need to find and apply
[11:14] <apw> i have dropped 4.11
[11:14] <apw> i have dropped 4.11 back to gcc-6, and we'll fight that battle on 4.12
[12:14] <LocutusOfBorg> apw, 4.12.5 should contain mostly all of them AFAICS
[12:15] <apw> yeah 4.12 is looking good
[12:15] <LocutusOfBorg> if you want I can craft a patchset to make the current one build with gcc-7
[12:16] <apw> LocutusOfBorg, na, we've good a 4.12 which builds just fine, thanks
[12:17] <LocutusOfBorg> ack
[12:25] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (xenial-proposed/main) [4.4.0-92.115] (core, kernel)
[12:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (xenial-proposed) [4.4.0-92.115]
[12:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed-lts-xenial [amd64] (trusty-proposed/main) [4.4.0-92.115~14.04.1] (kernel)
[13:04] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux [s390x] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[13:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed-lts-xenial [amd64] (trusty-proposed) [4.4.0-92.115~14.04.1]
[13:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux [ppc64el] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[15:07] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: linux-firmware (xenial-proposed/main) [1.157.11 => 1.157.12] (core, kernel)
[15:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: google-cloud-sdk (xenial-proposed/partner) [163.0.0-0ubuntu1~16.04.0 => 166.0.0-0ubuntu1~16.04.0] (no packageset)
[15:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: google-cloud-sdk (zesty-proposed/partner) [163.0.0-0ubuntu1~17.04.0 => 166.0.0-0ubuntu1~17.04.0] (no packageset)
[15:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gnutls26 (trusty-proposed/main) [2.12.23-12ubuntu2.8 => 2.12.23-12ubuntu2.9] (core)
[15:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gnutls28 (zesty-proposed/main) [3.5.6-4ubuntu4.1 => 3.5.6-4ubuntu4.2] (core)
[15:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gnutls28 (xenial-proposed/main) [3.4.10-4ubuntu1.3 => 3.4.10-4ubuntu1.4] (core)
[15:53] <dpb1> hi bdmurray, please reject https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/zesty/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=cloud-init, the merge and upload is invalid, thanks for catching
[15:54] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected snapd [source] (xenial-proposed) [2.27]
[15:54] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected snapd [source] (zesty-proposed) [2.27+17.04]
[15:54] <apw> ^ rejected per the uploader
[15:54] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected snapd [source] (trusty-proposed) [2.27~14.04]
[15:56] <bdmurray> dpb1: will do
[15:57] <bdmurray> apw: Are they going to verify their last upload?
[15:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected cloud-init [source] (zesty-proposed) [0.7.9-233-ge586fe35-0ubuntu1~17.04.1]
[15:58] <bdmurray> dpb1: The xenial one too?
[15:58] <dpb1> bdmurray: yes, both of them
[15:59] <apw> bdmurray, i hear they are yes, which is why i am holding that one in the queue, well was before it became junk
[16:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected cloud-init [source] (xenial-proposed) [0.7.9-233-ge586fe35-0ubuntu1~16.04.1]
[17:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: zfs-linux (xenial-proposed/main) [<IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu17 => <IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu18] (no packageset)
[18:15] <slangasek> jbicha: do you have any plans to investigate the mongodb/arm64 build failure?
[18:22] <jbicha> slangasek: not really, sorry :( I synced the package earlier because I believe server guys wanted s390x support
[18:22] <slangasek> ah, then this is cpaelzer's problem ;)
[18:33] <slangasek> jbicha, cpaelzer: well, both the artful and the artful-proposed versions are now FTBFS with gcc-7; I'm not going to remove binaries to unblock a package that I know is FTBFS...
[18:37] <jbicha> current stable release of mongodb is 3.4.7 released this week, the Debian package hasn't been updated in a while
[18:39] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux [armhf] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[18:43] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux [arm64] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[18:54]  * tsimonq2 wonders why lots of private jobs are done at once, clogging the build queues :(
[18:58] <slangasek> sometimes that happens because of security updates
[19:14] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: update-notifier (xenial-proposed/main) [3.168.4 => 3.168.5] (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[19:25] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux [amd64] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[19:34] <acheronuk> those jobs are holding up: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cmake/3.9.1-1 on amd64 so cmake-data package will not be built, so going to get FTBFS on anything that uses cmake (on !x86) until it clears :(
[19:34] <acheronuk> tsimonq2: ^^
[19:35] <tsimonq2> Yep, sort of why I'm sad at long build queues :(
[19:38] <slangasek> I can certainly bump cmake builds' priorities
[19:39] <slangasek> done, though amd64 is still 25 minutes out apparently
[19:39] <slangasek> (estimated)
[19:40] <acheronuk> thanks. just rubbish timing that synced now
[19:42] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux [i386] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[20:30] <cpaelzer> slangasek: jbicha: how did I earn the honor to be my problem - wit hmy s390 bagde?
[20:31] <slangasek> cpaelzer: yes ;)
[20:31] <cpaelzer> hmm :-/
[20:31] <cpaelzer> I shouldn
[20:31] <cpaelzer> 't have checked IRC before sleeping today :-)
[20:31]  * cpaelzer is taking a not what this is about
[20:33] <cpaelzer> jbicha: if you have some background on "the server guys wanted s390x" please feel free to send me
[20:33] <cpaelzer> I can find out if otherwise
[20:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: sagemath [i386] (artful-proposed/universe) [7.6-3ubuntu3] (no packageset)
[20:58] <jbicha> cpaelzer: LP: #1595242
[21:04] <dpb1> cpaelzer: let's chat monday -- I'll add this detail to a card in TODO
[21:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux [amd64] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]
[21:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux [armhf] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]
[21:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux [ppc64el] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]
[21:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux [arm64] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]
[21:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux [s390x] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]
[21:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux [i386] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]
[22:02] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: sagemath [amd64] (artful-proposed/universe) [7.6-3ubuntu3] (no packageset)
[22:14] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted node-seq [amd64] (artful-proposed) [0.3.5-2]
[22:14] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted sambamba [amd64] (artful-proposed) [0.6.6-1]
[22:14] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted swath [amd64] (artful-proposed) [0.5.5-2]
[22:14] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted python-pymeasure [amd64] (artful-proposed) [0.4.5-1]
[22:14] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted sambamba [i386] (artful-proposed) [0.6.6-1]
[22:28] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (artful-proposed/main) [4.12.0-11.12] (core, kernel)
[22:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (artful-proposed) [4.12.0-11.12]


[10:57] <synergetic> yesssssss <3 filezilla
[10:57] <synergetic> oop. wrong channel.
[14:57] <b1ackcr0w> hello Popey!
[14:57] <b1ackcr0w> installing Ubuntu on a friends machine :)
[14:59] <popey> hi b1ackcr0w :)
[14:59] <popey> hehe
[14:59] <popey> and I'm using ubuntu on my mums!
[15:01] <b1ackcr0w> mumbuntu!!
[15:01] <popey> yes!
[15:02] <b1ackcr0w> used that "how to describe open source to your grandma" from oggcamp 1 last night
[15:02] <b1ackcr0w> worked a charm
[15:02] <popey> :)
[15:02] <popey> not seen that!
[15:03] <b1ackcr0w> that french chap
[15:03] <b1ackcr0w> forgot his name
[15:03] <b1ackcr0w> the diffrence between a jar of jam and a recipie for jam
[15:04] <popey> Bruno
[15:04] <popey> bumped into him in dublin last weekend!
[15:04] <b1ackcr0w> they all got it 100%
[15:05] <b1ackcr0w> top chap
[15:05] <b1ackcr0w> surprising how useful barcamp stuff like that is
[15:07] <popey> yeah
[15:51] <synergetic> there's something written on the inside of my spoon ring... and it turns out it's a stamp from the original flatware company that made the spoon
[21:03] <daker> so, no meeting for today ?
[21:19] <synergetic> daker: doesn't seem like anyone else is around. probably busy editing and such
[21:20] <daker> :s
[21:20] <daker> we don't have much time
[21:21] <daker> the manual should be ready before the next Sunday
[21:30] <ChrisWoollard> Hello
[21:31] <ChrisWoollard> I  guess nobody else is here.
[21:31] <daker> i don't think so
[21:32] <daker> opps wrong window :)
[21:32] <daker> ChrisWoollard, yeah
[21:32] <ChrisWoollard> ;)


[02:02] <gonyere_> summarries for existing articles done
[02:08] <jose> thanks, gonyere_! :)
[02:08] <gonyere_> np :) Sorry I haven't been around the last couple weeks :)
[02:08] <jose> no worries, we all get busy at some opint
[02:08] <jose> point*
[05:35] <pleia2> jose: edited!
[05:35]  * pleia2 off to conference
[11:31] <jose> pleia2: thanks! have fun this week!
[21:21] <jose> Unit193: hey, mind link-checking? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue372
[21:25] <Unit193> Nothing abnormal.
[21:26] <jose> thanks!
[21:35] <jose> The new edition of the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter is now available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue372


[02:20] <Ahmuck> hello all
[02:22] <mhall119|eeepc> hello
[03:47] <ace_suares> ping
[03:48] <ace_suares> LaserJock:
[05:38] <LaserJock> ace_suares: still around?
[05:40] <ace_suares> hey are u awake ?
[05:41] <LaserJock> ugg, we need to fix the Launchpad teams too :/
[05:41] <LaserJock> yes, I'm awake
[05:42] <ace_suares> I am nearly off to bed. thx for your comments! I would like you to look at what I did with the teams pages.
[05:42] <ace_suares> Could you follow me for a while and then after that react ???
[05:42] <ace_suares> or have something else on your mind ?
[05:42] <LaserJock> no, go for it
[05:42] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams
[05:42] <ace_suares> tell me if you;re done reading
[05:43] <ace_suares> (plz implicitly included in all my text, kk?)
[05:43] <LaserJock> ace_suares: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument ?
[05:44] <ace_suares> nope want me to do tha tnow ?
[05:44] <ace_suares> wow
[05:44] <ace_suares> still i'd like you to follow for a while, plz?
[05:46] <ace_suares> LaserJock: ?
[05:46] <LaserJock> sure
[05:46] <ace_suares> k
[05:46] <ace_suares> here comes stage 2
[05:46] <LaserJock> just got done reading it
[05:46] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams/EdubuntuMembers
[05:46] <ace_suares> just an example though
[05:47] <ace_suares> plz look at the raw text too
[05:47] <ace_suares> now look here: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/StyleGuide
[05:48] <ace_suares> now look at the raw text of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams
[05:48] <LaserJock> k
[05:48]  * LaserJock feels like ace_suares is going to hate him
[05:49] <ace_suares> no problem i am just trrying out things and learn a lot on the way
[05:49] <ace_suares> I am just gonna ask you now, do you think this setup is workable?
[05:49] <ace_suares> It provides for easy adding and changing individual team pages under responsibility of that team
[05:50] <LaserJock> I think the includes thing is cool, I just don't think Teams is the place to do
[05:50] <ace_suares> and the main team page (or wherever the teams are listes) is very easy one line include
[05:50] <ace_suares> why not ?
[05:50] <LaserJock> I don't think we need a teams page particularly
[05:50] <LaserJock> the Launchpad team pages have the description
[05:50] <ace_suares> will you look at this page for a sec? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort
[05:50] <ace_suares> scroll down to the end
[05:51] <LaserJock> see it
[05:51] <ace_suares> thats' the current state of teams pages
[05:51] <ace_suares> differnet url's, listst that are not complete (like yours)... how to streamline that?
[05:52] <LaserJock> well the plan is
[05:52] <LaserJock> to get control of the teams
[05:52] <LaserJock> and slim them down
[05:52] <ace_suares> well you should really tell me if there is a plan to all this, buddy :-)
[05:52] <ace_suares> but thats a good paln
[05:52] <LaserJock> there's always a plan
[05:53] <ace_suares> yeah i need to know though
[05:53] <LaserJock> but nobody every does anything about it
[05:53] <LaserJock> yes
[05:53] <ace_suares> i am doing things without a plan
[05:53] <ace_suares> a lot of things
[05:53] <ace_suares> quickly
[05:53] <LaserJock> I just can't keep up with you very well
[05:53] <ace_suares> so with a plan it would evne be quicker
[05:53] <ace_suares> he he
[05:53] <ace_suares> i am just trying things out
[05:53] <ace_suares> trying out structures
[05:53] <ace_suares> and then we can look if they are okay or not
[05:53] <LaserJock> ok, but what about moving the user docs to help.ubuntu.com/community?
[05:54] <ace_suares> i was not going to build all team pages like this before we could agree
[05:54] <ace_suares> this is just a sample of what *could* be
[05:54] <LaserJock> sure
[05:54] <ace_suares> user docs? if you give me a list of user docs that need to be moved i'll move them, told you before
[05:54] <ace_suares> i can't get the list
[05:55] <LaserJock> just search around
[05:55] <ace_suares> I can search for Edubuntu turns up 246 pages
[05:55] <LaserJock> yep
[05:55] <ace_suares> I want to restructure and cleanip the whole wiki
[05:55] <LaserJock> LTSP and similar are more likely to get something
[05:55] <LaserJock> yes
[05:55] <ace_suares> in a form that you /we can all agree on
[05:55] <LaserJock> but perhaps it's good to start small
[05:55] <LaserJock> before revolutionizing the whole thing :-)
[05:55] <ace_suares> i think this is rather small
[05:56] <ace_suares> I can do 246 pages in a couple of days, really
[05:56] <ace_suares> if I know where to go with it
[05:56] <ace_suares> and what is there aginast revolutizoning
[05:56] <LaserJock> well, it's not easy
[05:56] <ace_suares> it's good thing
[05:56] <ace_suares> it's not easy cause there is no plan
[05:56] <ace_suares> the techniques are easy and interesting
[05:56] <LaserJock> no, but moving a page can be a lot of work
[05:56] <ace_suares> the actual doing it is pretty boring but fast
[05:56] <LaserJock> trying to figure out the web of links
[05:56] <ace_suares> it's not
[05:57] <LaserJock> updating everything
[05:57] <ace_suares> ok
[05:57] <ace_suares> why
[05:57] <LaserJock> redirects if necessary, etc.
[05:57] <ace_suares> all user docs are one page
[05:57] <ace_suares> or not?
[05:57] <LaserJock> no
[05:57] <ace_suares> without links
[05:57] <ace_suares> show me one
[05:57] <LaserJock> and you should do a google search
[05:57] <LaserJock> to see if other people link to the page
[05:57] <ace_suares> oh well, that's a simple thing
[05:57] <LaserJock> and interwiki search to see if there are any links and fix if needed
[05:58] <LaserJock> it's not *huge*
[05:58] <ace_suares> every page that gets moved gets a redirect in the page like #redirect someurl
[05:58] <ace_suares> it will do the redirect properly
[05:58] <LaserJock> but I can't do more than 5-10 pages a day
[05:58] <ace_suares> search engines will learn
[05:58] <ace_suares> I can do 100 pages a day if i knew what to do
[05:59] <ace_suares> why so conservative?
[05:59] <ace_suares> right now i am only making new pages
[05:59] <LaserJock> because, 1) it's the wiki team policy
[05:59] <ace_suares> to build the structure
[05:59] <LaserJock> 2) it's not nice to break
[05:59] <LaserJock> 3) this is how we get into a big mess
[05:59] <ace_suares> why should it break?> and dont see that
[05:59] <ace_suares> why shoudl we break? I don't see that
[05:59] <LaserJock> well
[06:00] <LaserJock> because we should delete pages if we can
[06:00] <LaserJock> otherwise we just add more and more pages
[06:00] <ace_suares> no, never, just redirect
[06:00] <ace_suares> okay really obsolte pages can be deleted
[06:00] <LaserJock> the goal is deletion where possible
[06:00] <LaserJock> but being careful about it
[06:00] <ace_suares> why? what's the problem with redirect?
[06:00] <LaserJock> because the redirected page shows up just the same
[06:01] <LaserJock> in searches, etc.
[06:01] <ace_suares> does it? there's 2 ways of redirect
[06:01] <ace_suares> with http refresh
[06:01] <ace_suares> and with #redirect
[06:01] <ace_suares>  I think the latter gives a 303
[06:01] <ace_suares> search engines learn from that
[06:01] <LaserJock> so I want to make a search of Edubuntu *not* give you 250+ page
[06:02] <LaserJock> wiki redirects show up as regular pages until you click on them
[06:02] <ace_suares> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=eGw&q=ThinClientHowToNAT&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
[06:02] <ace_suares> click on the first link
[06:03] <ace_suares> so how can we delete without breaking ?
[06:03] <LaserJock> you're gonna have to either break of leave the redirect
[06:03] <ace_suares> need to go to sleep in 2 min just smoked last sigarette
[06:04] <LaserJock> hence why we need to be careful with where we put stuff!
[06:04] <ace_suares> so what are you proposing
[06:04] <LaserJock> well, that one is fairly heavily linked so we have to leave the redirect
[06:04] <LaserJock> if there's no outside links we can delete and fix internal wiki links
[06:05] <ace_suares> if we give each redirect page a CategoryEdubuntuRedirected, then we can search in wiki with '-CategoryEdubuntuRedirect' and only real pages will show up
[06:05] <LaserJock> well, we need to be careful with Categories too
[06:05] <LaserJock> or we get too many
[06:05] <LaserJock> but that is definitely a good thought
[06:05] <ace_suares> ohhh! thnak you :-)
[06:06] <LaserJock> maybe we could use a generic category
[06:06] <ace_suares> I dont want to break either but there is no way you can do a cleanup without hurting something
[06:06] <LaserJock> like CategoryEdubuntuObsolete or something
[06:06] <ace_suares> is fine it doesnt matter as long as they are all the same
[06:07] <ace_suares> And what if outside links refer to pages we think should be deleted?
[06:07] <ace_suares> It just takes some time
[06:07] <ace_suares> I can give you a NICE example
[06:07] <LaserJock> we just set up a redirect
[06:08] <ace_suares> i totally agree but for the DELETED pages (where the content is really obsolete) we can redirect to a generic error page that leads to the home page or so
[06:08] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Photos
[06:08] <ace_suares> look at the first link
[06:08] <ace_suares> I edited that lik
[06:08] <ace_suares> link
[06:09] <ace_suares> since highvoltage moved HIS photo's
[06:09] <ace_suares> so the link was not working at all but was still on edubuntu pages
[06:09] <ace_suares> and the hotos where still there just moved (/v/ somewhere in url
[06:10] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:10] <ace_suares> yeahyeah
[06:10] <LaserJock> I'm trying to think if an example where we really wanted to delete a page (and it was ok to do so) but we wanted to redirect somewhere
[06:10] <ace_suares> also the 1 2 3 links ion that page dont work but could be my internet error so i left them
[06:10] <LaserJock> I think we'd just want to delete the page
[06:11] <ace_suares> there is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval
[06:11] <ace_suares> all pages that we think should be deleted and not directed should go there
[06:11] <LaserJock> right
[06:12] <ace_suares> then one day we can sit an dgo trough th elist and say this goes that stays
[06:12] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:12] <LaserJock> if people can do initial triage
[06:12] <ace_suares> if the list is there, it's easy :-)
[06:12] <ace_suares> I am afraid I am doing the triage now :-)
[06:13] <LaserJock> it's a great way to contribute!
[06:13] <ace_suares> but we could ask 5 people to spend 2 hrs and give them a 50 links
[06:13] <ace_suares> thats 250 links
[06:13] <ace_suares> and let them do one thing: say proposed for removal or leave it as it is
[06:13] <ace_suares> then we'd have our distributed triage
[06:14] <ace_suares> and then we could ask the 5 people for 2 hrs to do that list and say for each link 'CategoryLaserJokAgrees' or disagrees
[06:14] <LaserJock> heh
[06:14] <ace_suares> and then do a good search and it will give us all pages to be deleted
[06:15] <ace_suares> did you notice how many people wnated to contribute since last week ?
[06:15] <ace_suares> 3 or so
[06:15] <LaserJock> yep
[06:15] <ace_suares> i think we can harnass their enthousiams by giving them plain task
[06:15] <ace_suares> like a list of links and the taks to 'add categoryxyz to those pages'
[06:16] <ace_suares> or 'copy those pages to /bla/bli/pagename'
[06:16] <ace_suares> poeple love to be told what to do
[06:16] <ace_suares> it's takes off a part of the responsibility
[06:16] <ace_suares> in the end we'll have our cleand up wiki
[06:17] <ace_suares> and some styleguides as to new pages (making templates)
[06:17] <ace_suares> and then the janitor job is simple
[06:17] <ace_suares> to keep it focussed for like one or two releases
[06:17] <ace_suares> thats what i think could happen
[06:17] <LaserJock> so here's sort of how would like to see this go down
[06:17]  * ace_suares is all ears
[06:18] <LaserJock> you and hopefully some other people who're willing to help
[06:18] <LaserJock> go through the wiki page and flag for deletion/moving/updating
[06:19] <LaserJock> so that they show up on the wiki cleanup page
[06:19] <LaserJock> then one or all of the core Edubuntu people can go through and sign off
[06:20] <ace_suares> yes
[06:20] <LaserJock> how does that sound?
[06:20] <ace_suares> very good!
[06:20] <LaserJock> so let's do that first before messing with the structure for now
[06:20] <LaserJock> after we've cleaned cruft
[06:20] <ace_suares> well
[06:20] <LaserJock> we can look at what's left and figure out the best structure
[06:21] <ace_suares> how would 'we' know how to 'move' a page if there is no new structure?
[06:21] <ace_suares> deleting is fine
[06:21] <LaserJock> because moving should be for user documentation
[06:21] <ace_suares> updating is difficult since... who will update?
[06:21] <LaserJock> if it's an easy update you guys can do it
[06:21] <LaserJock> if it's not just flag it
[06:21] <ace_suares> I think if you are doing it like that you are missing an opportunity to make it a good wiki
[06:22] <LaserJock> how so?
[06:22] <ace_suares> but it sure will help
[06:22] <ace_suares> becaue if you know the ne3w structure (and it's not that difficult) then you can flag the moves correctly
[06:22] <ace_suares> and when you all sign off on the move
[06:22] <ace_suares> then it's simple for 'us' to do it
[06:22] <LaserJock> well, let's worry about that as a secondary thing
[06:23] <LaserJock> the idea is as a first step to clean cruft
[06:23] <LaserJock> and *then* make the structure as we want
[06:23] <ace_suares> well if you want... but look again at the team page ehh. wait..
[06:23] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort
[06:23] <ace_suares> at he bottom
[06:23] <ace_suares> that is a search on 'edubuntu team'
[06:24] <ace_suares> How should i flag EdubuntuItalianTeam?
[06:24] <ace_suares> or testingTeam
[06:24] <ace_suares> or... more weird NicaraguanTeam?
[06:24] <ace_suares> you need to think of an algoritm
[06:24] <ace_suares> that we lowly contributors can work with
[06:25] <LaserJock> well, unfortunately I don't think it's quite that easy
[06:25] <ace_suares> it's unfortunately that you think that or unfortunately that it is not so easy ???
[06:25] <LaserJock> if a page looks questionable you can just flag it
[06:26] <ace_suares> flag it how?.. in this paticular case?
[06:27] <LaserJock> you can just put it on the wiki cleanup page with a note
[06:27] <ace_suares> ah now you complicate things!
[06:27] <ace_suares> for me to just add a category to a wiki page is simple
[06:27] <LaserJock> yes, but it's not that easy in some cases
[06:27] <ace_suares> for me to make a list of pages with notes, very time consuming and prone to errors
[06:28] <ace_suares> let the category mechanism do the work for us
[06:28] <LaserJock> were a category works, fine
[06:28] <LaserJock> but in some cases I think it's good to have notes
[06:28] <ace_suares> 'flag' means add a category and you can make as many as you want
[06:28] <LaserJock> no, don't make as many as you want
[06:28] <ace_suares> they will be empty afterwards, after the clean up
[06:28] <LaserJock> it just make a big mess
[06:28] <ace_suares> no...
[06:28] <LaserJock> they need to make sense
[06:29] <ace_suares> they need to make sense for the clean up yes
[06:29] <ace_suares> like a local variable after the clean up they will all be gone
[06:29] <ace_suares> a category only exsits if there is pages that have that category
[06:29] <LaserJock> right, I'm just saying sometimes a simple category flag is insufficient and doesn't allow for discussion
[06:30] <ace_suares> well you are maybe right but try to imagine making a list of 100 pages by copying the URL and then add a note
[06:30] <ace_suares> what order the need to be in
[06:30] <LaserJock> I'm just saying for the non-obvious ones
[06:30] <LaserJock> like probably < 10
[06:30] <ace_suares> if you do something with that page you need  to do bookkeeping on that order page
[06:31] <ace_suares> well you can make a category 'WithNotes' and in that page make the note,s that would work
[06:31] <LaserJock> well, I don't care so much
[06:32] <ace_suares> but still. how should i flag italianteam? looking for guidance here to complete a task... seriously...
[06:32] <LaserJock> I just find categories to get messy if overly done so I try to avoid doing too many
[06:32] <ace_suares> yeah in the wiki i agree
[06:32] <ace_suares> we could also discuss what categories would end up in the cleaned up wiki
[06:32] <ace_suares> i think 4-6 would be really enough
[06:32] <LaserJock> EdubuntuItalianTeam is a redirect
[06:32] <LaserJock> so I'm not sure we do anything with it
[06:33] <ace_suares> well at least make it catergory is redirect to make local search in moinmoin better
[06:34] <LaserJock> I guess so
[06:34] <ace_suares> or maybe not]
[06:34] <ace_suares> but at leas tit needs a guid line
[06:34] <ace_suares> it's like writing softwar efor humans
[06:34] <LaserJock> do - searches work on the wiki?
[06:34] <ace_suares> you need specs
[06:34] <ace_suares> and rules/code
[06:34] <ace_suares> so the HPU (Human Processor Units) know what to do
[06:35] <ace_suares> sure
[06:35] <ace_suares> try 'edubuntu -cookbook - handbook'
[06:36] <ace_suares> and try just 'edubuntu'
[06:36] <LaserJock> ok cool
[06:36] <LaserJock> so yeah, we should add a redirect category to redirects
[06:36] <LaserJock> that would be a great triage task
[06:36] <ace_suares> you can even embed search in a page <<FullSearchCached('edubuntu -cookbook') and that page will always show all those that match
[06:37] <ace_suares> yes it would very clear and consice
[06:38] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval check out the raw text on that one
[06:38] <LaserJock> I don't see an existing CategoryRedirect
[06:39] <LaserJock> perhaps we should email the doc team and see if that could be an Ubuntu-wide thing
[06:39] <ace_suares> No but it should be CategoryEdubuntuRedirect as not to mess with the others
[06:39] <LaserJock> I don't know why it shouldn't be Ubuntu-wide
[06:39] <ace_suares> ha ha now you make it larger then needed
[06:39] <ace_suares> but its' possible like CategorySpec does ALL specs
[06:40] <ace_suares> I added CategoryEdubuntuSpec so they can be seperated
[06:40] <LaserJock> there's no real reason to distinguish between Ubuntu redirects and Edubuntu redirects
[06:40] <LaserJock> yeah, that's all historic
[06:40] <LaserJock> original Edubuntu was just a part of Ubuntu really and there weren't that many specs
[06:41] <LaserJock> now it make a lot more sense to have a separate category
[06:41] <ace_suares> whatever you say, but if you decide to lets' say vet all Edubuntu redirect and delete a couple of them after vetting
[06:41] <ace_suares> then you will be in toruble
[06:41] <LaserJock> how so?
[06:41] <ace_suares> beacuse how wil you make a list of things to vet?
[06:42] <LaserJock> well, I'd imagine Edubuntu CategoryRedirect
[06:42] <ace_suares> yeah that might work
[06:44] <ace_suares> can you make a small mail for the devel outlining this discussion as a start to defining the triage task ?
[06:44] <ace_suares> just the general outlines and ideas where we are going?
[06:44] <ace_suares> you did well on the last one
[06:44] <ace_suares> it's important that all know about it and not just those listening in here (whihc seems to be none)
[06:45] <ace_suares> i really need to go now i very much appreciate the time you are taking to talk this trough
[06:46] <LaserJock> k
[06:46] <LaserJock> will do
[06:46] <ace_suares> nighty
[06:46] <LaserJock> and thanks
[14:31] <ace_suares> morning all. not much time today for Edubuntu.
[14:48] <humbolt> who has tested an LTSP FAT client setup yet?
[15:17] <highvoltage> *sigh*
[15:18] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?
[15:41] <mhall119> highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki
[15:42] <highvoltage> mhall119: indeed
[18:58] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you sure do create a lot of work :-)
[19:07] <Ahmuck> edubuntu is funny
[19:08] <LaserJock> "haha" funny? or "OMG this is horrible" funny?
[19:12] <Ahmuck> community driven, a throwaway child of ubuntu, dying in the clutches of administrative overhead all because it's dependence of ubuntu's resources.
[19:13] <LaserJock> it has nothing to do with ubuntu resources
[19:13] <LaserJock> ubuntu's resources are quite good
[19:13] <Ahmuck> any reason then we need to use launchpad?
[19:14] <LaserJock> Launchpad is an *excellent* tool
[19:14] <LaserJock> and I don't think there's a lot of administrative overhead
[19:15] <LaserJock> what seems to be lacking is people willing/able to put significant effort into it
[19:15] <Ahmuck> why the impass of getting things done in edubuntu?  every time someone comes along willing to make a push to get edubuntu moving along, someone throws a wet rag on them
[19:15] <LaserJock> I don't think people are trying to throw a wet rag
[19:15] <LaserJock> they're maybe trying to guide the effort
[19:16] <Ahmuck> iirc, this morning i saw another unpleasent reference to someone willing to move edubuntu along.  real change comes from a small group of people willing to do someething, not large groups
[19:16] <Ahmuck> large groups provide stablity for research and large corporations, but do little inovation
[19:16] <LaserJock> I don't understand what you mean
[19:16] <LaserJock> what large group are you referring to?
[19:16] <Ahmuck> look at what has been done to edubuntu.  it's lost anybody connected with paid developemnt
[19:17] <LaserJock> it did lose it's paid development
[19:17] <Ahmuck> now that it's fallen to volunteer individuals, a community effort, and getting the go ahead within the current structer, were still getting dampered.  shall i start listing the people that keep leaving, because they keep trying to get things done
[19:18] <LaserJock> yes, please do
[19:18] <Ahmuck> LJ is there anybody that is doing full time dev on edubuntu?
[19:18] <LaserJock> no
[19:18] <Ahmuck> from conical
[19:18] <LaserJock> no, nobody is full time period
[19:18] <LaserJock> well
[19:18] <LaserJock> stgraber would be the closest on LTSP
[19:18] <LaserJock> since his day job is LTSP
[19:19] <Ahmuck> stgraber: day job is ltsp?  with conical?
[19:19] <LaserJock> no
[19:19] <LaserJock> Revolution Linux
[19:19] <LaserJock> it's a commercial Ubuntu offshoot I believe
[19:19] <Ahmuck> i get the impression that people are waiting in the corners to see if it succeeds.  if it does, claim it, if it doesn't let it die
[19:20] <LaserJock> well, it won't ever succeed if everybody waits in the corners :(
[19:20]  * Ahmuck wonders why it's called "revolution" linux ... he he
[19:20] <LaserJock> I can scream until I'm blue in the face saying what needs to be done
[19:21] <LaserJock> but if nobody is willing to get into action on things then I'm not sure how we can move forward
[19:21] <LaserJock> and if people are willing to listen to those of us who have experience doing this stuff I'm not sure what exactly to do
[19:21] <LaserJock> *aren't willing
[19:29] <Ahmuck> back to the admin overhead, i've watched groups come togather, and they usually "settle" out.  guidence is good, but over guidence can be sour.  it really makes it sour when members of the group start calling names like "crazies"
[19:30] <Ahmuck> someone's stepped up to offer help, the last thing you edubuntu needs is calling volunteers names
[19:36] <LaserJock> who called people names?
[19:40] <Ahmuck> looks like my connection got reset, don't know what i missed
[19:41] <ace_suares> hi guys
[19:41] <ace_suares> i am the 'crazy i suppose
[19:42] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: who called people crazies?
[19:42] <ace_suares> highvoltage: *sigh*
[19:42] <ace_suares> highvoltage: sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?
[19:42] <ace_suares> ubottu [n=supybot@ubuntu/bot/ubottu] entered the room.
[19:42] <ace_suares> mhall119: highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki
[19:42] <ace_suares> highvoltage: mhall119: indeed
[19:42] <mhall119> who what?
[19:43] <ace_suares> this is what Ahmuck is talking about. I was not very happy with it but chose to let it pass.
[19:43] <Ahmuck> lol, sorry
[19:43] <ace_suares> Thanks mhall119 for defending
[19:43] <ace_suares> I do think it's a very bad attitude towards newcomers, though ;-)
[19:44] <mhall119> I wouldn't tall that defending, because I didn't think you were being attacked, just misunderstood
[19:45] <mhall119> they probably get a lot of people who jump in, give a lot of unsolicited advice, argue with anyone who doesn't agree, and then leave without doing a bit or work
[19:45] <mhall119> I wanted to clarify that you were indeed doing work, not just spouting off
[19:45] <LaserJock> we do get a *lot* of that
[19:46] <LaserJock> or people who do all that and then screw around with stuff for a week or two and then leave everything in a mess
[19:46] <ace_suares> I can understand that very well. I think when you would use launchpad better - especially the mentoring which I discoverd just today - then it would be easier to keep control and seperate the crazies from the workers !
[19:46] <LaserJock> right
[19:47] <LaserJock> we've never used the mentoring
[19:47] <LaserJock> Ubuntu doesn't really use it
[19:47] <ace_suares> to be honest - i hadn't planned on workin more then a week full time on it - but the lack of 'low hanging fruit' go me into it deeper.
[19:47] <LaserJock> it's mostly considered a failed Launchpad feature
[19:47] <ace_suares> really? oh that's too bad.
[19:47] <Ahmuck> mentoring doesn't work without a mentor
[19:47] <LaserJock> right
[19:47] <ace_suares> I think it should have been a great social structure
[19:47] <LaserJock> and for Launchpad
[19:47] <ace_suares> of course you need mentors :-)
[19:47] <Ahmuck> however google seems to pull it off, perhaps because of the "cash"
[19:48] <LaserJock> it takes as much time, if not more, to do the whole mentoring thing as to just fix the darn thing
[19:48] <LaserJock> well, I didn't say *mentoring* doesn't work
[19:48] <LaserJock> I said Launchpad's mentoring feature
[19:48] <ace_suares> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/401474
[19:48] <LaserJock> Ubuntu does quite a bit of mentoring
[19:49] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: I think Edubuntu developers are just a bit frustrated, perhaps that comes off as a "wet blanket" but hopefully if people start stepping up that frustration will be alleviated
[19:50] <ace_suares> I think your mail form last night LJ, about how we want to do the redirects and the proposal for removal, is an excellent case for mentoring. Define a couple of tasks (in a spec? in bugs?) and then try to find people trough the mailng list to do those tasks... what do you think? Rather without the LP mentoring feature?
[19:50] <LaserJock> yes
[19:50] <ace_suares> LaserJock: people will not step up if they are met with a certain attitude
[19:50] <LaserJock> I suppose
[19:51] <LaserJock> but since they didn't step up any way I guess some of us are just a bit jaded
[19:51] <ace_suares> what.. nobody ever steppe dup ?
[19:51] <ace_suares> stepped up???
[19:51] <LaserJock> I asked for help for 2 years and got next to nothing
[19:51] <LaserJock> I put off my PhD because of it
[19:52] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well how did you ask for help do you think that could be part of the problem ? Just asking!
[19:52] <LaserJock> I asked on IRC, on Planet Ubuntu, on the mailing lists
[19:52] <LaserJock> I asked everywhere I could
[19:52] <ace_suares> LaserJock: ohh hat's bad. well i am putting of the quotes i was supposed to make today and a project that gives immediate cash. BAD. BAD ACE. SILLY MAN.
[19:52] <LaserJock> I laid out specific things that could be done
[19:53] <Ahmuck> let's say 3 people had been mentored over the last 3 releases, 8.04 - 9.04 ... which i've been with edubuntu since.  you would have gained 3 more devs and would have 6 rather than 3 todsy
[19:53] <ace_suares> I'd love to see the specific things you needed to be done. Of course if it's coding i can't help.
[19:53] <LaserJock> I sent an email saying exactly what things needed to be done for Jaunty's release
[19:53] <ace_suares> was it all coding requests?
[19:53] <LaserJock> and I got *0* response
[19:53] <LaserJock> no
[19:53] <LaserJock> it was docs, website, and packaging
[19:53] <LaserJock> all minimal activities
[19:54] <Ahmuck> e-mails are temporail
[19:54] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: right, I agree would be nice to have had 3 people to mentor
[19:54] <ace_suares> You know, I shouldnt' say this, but I jumped in and I want to see this trough. At least till the website and the wiki are cleaned up. I really *need* the docs sometimes so it's very much in my benefit. It's just a huge amount of time. BHut I will try now to see this trough.
[19:55] <LaserJock> we also need people willing to learn
[19:55] <ace_suares> I think three people showed interest in helping. I want to try do the LP mentroing thing and se eif i can catch them to really help.
[19:55] <ace_suares> and as a matte rof fact, uptill now I like your mentoring LaserJock :-)
[19:55] <LaserJock> one of the frustrations I've had in Edubuntu is that potential contributors seem to be very demanding in Edubuntu compared to Ubuntu as a whole
[19:56] <ace_suares> You need to help me on the mentoring in LP though LaserJock
[19:56] <LaserJock> Edubuntu gets a lot of demands and a lot of "this is what you're doing wrong"
[19:56] <Ahmuck> edubuntu has a void
[19:56] <Ahmuck> which may be causing your demading
[19:57] <ace_suares> well, tyou're working with teachers. Have ever met a teacher who wants to learn from someone else? No offense, teachers!
[19:57] <LaserJock> the fundamental problem though is not knowing what to do
[19:57] <LaserJock> I can tell you exactly what needs to be done, etc.
[19:57] <Ahmuck> btw, is your phd done?
[19:57] <LaserJock> it's written
[19:57] <LaserJock> I defend Thursday
[19:58] <Ahmuck> you need to be concentrating on defending imho
[19:58] <LaserJock> well, there is that
[19:58] <LaserJock> but I hate seeing things as they are
[19:59] <Ahmuck> it'll be easy to get to things as they are after thursday
[19:59] <Ahmuck> trust me, it won't fall apart
[19:59] <ace_suares> LaserJock: lets work together on getting a list of easy tasks and then lets work together on have people do that stuff. I can mentor wiki changes. Lets also take one step back and do this during one whole month and see where we are come september.
[20:00] <ace_suares> Ahmuck is right it wont fall any more apart :-)
[20:00] <LaserJock> ok, I can put a list of things together
[20:00] <LaserJock> but people need to trust me and respond, you know
[20:01] <LaserJock> I know things would be much better if I had time to actually be active with getting these things done
[20:02] <LaserJock> and hopefully my new job will allow some of that
[20:02] <LaserJock> but if people can just trust me for a bit I swear we can turn this around
[20:02] <ace_suares> are you saying i don't trust you and dont' respond to you?
[20:02] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you've done more in the last week than anybody else has done in 2 years
[20:03] <ace_suares> LaserJock: and then some, I am involved in ltsp/eduntu since 2005 it's about time that I did something worthwile
[20:03] <LaserJock> so I hope you're just the beginning, but you can hopefully understand my frustration
[20:04] <LaserJock> and I know that other people have *wanted* to help
[20:04] <ace_suares> but I never knew what to do exactly and even now it's hard to find it out.
[20:04] <LaserJock> I'm not trying to put other people down
[20:04] <LaserJock> and I know a lot of people do excellent support work
[20:04] <LaserJock> but I really need signification technical contribution
[20:04] <ace_suares> i could have done a lto more if i knew what to be done now i was figuring out things along the way that's more work and  goes slower.
[20:04] <LaserJock> I need people who are willing to do packaging work
[20:05] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well i can't help you with packaging before the wiki cleanup is completed
[20:05] <ace_suares> I learnd packaging though, the very basic of it
[20:05] <LaserJock> if a person are able to do that then everything else comes fairly natural
[20:05] <ace_suares> and i can promise to help you on
[20:05] <ace_suares> - help define the stuff in LP mentoring
[20:05] <LaserJock> people have this concept that a "developer" is some sort of uber coder
[20:05] <ace_suares> - do the actual work when the website and wiki are done
[20:06] <ace_suares> LaserJock: well that's how some of them try to come off, anyway :-(
[20:06] <LaserJock> an OS developer is far from that
[20:06] <LaserJock> I'm a chemist
[20:06] <LaserJock> I've never taken a computer course in my life
[20:06] <ace_suares> I am a generalist
[20:06] <LaserJock> I just learned by getting in there and doing
[20:06] <ace_suares> heh i code since i am 15
[20:07] <ace_suares> but coding gets in the way of my social life
[20:07] <ace_suares> so i don't do it full time
[20:07] <ace_suares> and i don't do static type languages
[20:07] <LaserJock> so my point is if *I* can do it then I think a lot of people can
[20:07] <ace_suares> just ruby (on rails) and PHP and a little bash
[20:07] <LaserJock> and we just need to figure out how to excite them and enable them to do it
[20:08] <ace_suares> LaserJock: I am very sorry, I am just concerned about the docs right now and I don't have much ears for the other problems
[20:08] <ace_suares> i hope you can understand that and work with that
[20:08] <LaserJock> well
[20:08] <ace_suares> I can do packaging too, in a couple of months
[20:08] <LaserJock> as long as there are other people who are concerned I certainly don't care one bit
[20:09] <ace_suares> and if we can make the overall structure more clear and define short term goals for new recruits 9develoers too) we might win some.
[20:09] <LaserJock> people are welcome to work on areas that they want
[20:09] <LaserJock> the wiki certainly needs help
[20:09] <ace_suares> i thin ka good wiki will make it easier for new devleopers to join too.
[20:09] <LaserJock> but I'm hoping we can get a few people into the more technical bit
[20:09] <ace_suares> LaserJock: don't you understand you are making me feel less wanted ?
[20:10] <LaserJock> am I?
[20:11] <LaserJock> seriously?
[20:12] <ace_suares> yes... consider the following line on the wiki... wait...
[20:13] <ace_suares> Even if you can't program software, there are many ways to get involved with the Edubuntu project, whether it's documentation, testing, packaging, artwork, or reviewing of material.
[20:13] <LaserJock> right
[20:13] <ace_suares> (from https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/GetInvolved)
[20:13] <ace_suares> what do you think that message relays to people like me ?
[20:13] <LaserJock> that people are welcome to get involved
[20:14] <LaserJock> I just don't understand why you would feel less wanted
[20:14] <LaserJock> I said "the wiki certainly needs help"
[20:14] <ace_suares> no. it says well, we 'd rather talk to developers who can code, then you, but even if you can't code, we'll have some unimprtant jpob for you where we can't really care about much
[20:14] <ace_suares> LaserJock: this is nothing personal ! I am trying to bend the way the 'community' looks at devs and non-devs
[20:14] <LaserJock> good grief, that's not what it says
[20:15] <LaserJock> it's addressing a specific thing that Ubuntu has often found
[20:15] <ace_suares> well, that's what people certainly can read
[20:15] <LaserJock> that you have to be a coder to contribute
[20:15] <ace_suares> It's non-neutral.
[20:15] <LaserJock> that statement *specifically* to contradict that notion
[20:15] <ace_suares> It states that the 'normal' way is to be a coder and EVEN it that's not you you still can help
[20:16] <ace_suares> well let's not discuss it further, i KNOW it was ment to be a good statement but it's not.
[20:16] <ace_suares> It owuld e like saying even if you are a women you can still buy a toyota
[20:16] <ace_suares> it's all perception!
[20:16] <ace_suares> I think the deubuntu community has to become very carefull about what message it sends
[20:17] <ace_suares> that's my point
[20:17] <LaserJock> yes
[20:17] <ace_suares> that's why i tried to change the wording on the new wiki homepage to be more neutral to the status of dev's . I don't know it that works, it needs review
[20:17] <LaserJock> but frankly
[20:17] <LaserJock> I don't know how much people actually read this stuff
[20:17] <ace_suares> well i read it
[20:18] <ace_suares> isn't that enough?
[20:18] <LaserJock> sure, sure
[20:18] <ace_suares> you are aiming at like 3 new devs and 3 people that do other stuff in the next 3 months?
[20:18] <LaserJock> it's just easy for me to get a bit frustrated when there are *very* important issues that aren't being addressed
[20:18] <LaserJock> and we're debating wording
[20:18] <LaserJock> I know the issues are real issues
[20:18] <ace_suares> there you are doing it again.
[20:19] <ace_suares> i personally can understand you frustrations
[20:19] <LaserJock> do you realize we are very close to not having a release at all?!
[20:19] <ace_suares> but what can i do about it?
[20:19] <ace_suares> no i didn't realize that
[20:19] <ace_suares> but how can i help to change that
[20:20] <LaserJock> well, we need people willing to dig into packaging, bug triaging, and seed management
[20:20] <ace_suares> the only thin i think i can do is try to make the wiki and website better and help with getting more poeple involved albeit in the 'other' department
[20:21] <LaserJock> ok, and that's OK
[20:21] <ace_suares> like i said LaserJock lets setup these tasks in LP this week or the next and make sure we can mentor people into it so that if someone comes alon, the can start woking right away!
[20:21] <ace_suares> instead of slowly finding out what the hell it is all about
[20:21] <LaserJock> I don't mind you working on wiki and website, we *do* need that
[20:21] <LaserJock> but it's not super high priority for me
[20:21] <ace_suares> okay okay
[20:21] <LaserJock> so I'm not trying to dissuade you from your work
[20:22] <ace_suares> so if  there is no one of the core members for who it's a high priority
[20:22] <ace_suares> who will guide me then? No one?
[20:22] <ace_suares> I'd better leave now then if the porospects are that bleak :-(
[20:22] <LaserJock> well, that is a very difficult part of this
[20:22] <LaserJock> we've known for a while that the problem with growing the community is that we have to have a community to grow it with
[20:23] <LaserJock> in order to do mentoring we need to have mentors
[20:23] <ace_suares> well YOu need to be the mentors there are no others
[20:23] <LaserJock> so initially we need to have some pretty self-directed people
[20:23] <LaserJock> that aren't going to need a ton of mentoring
[20:23] <ace_suares> ha ha
[20:23] <Ahmuck> i feel the same way
[20:24] <ace_suares> so I work my butt of for a new structure proposal, very self directed
[20:24] <LaserJock> yep
[20:24] <ace_suares> and the ogra says dont touch the specs
[20:24] <LaserJock> well
[20:24] <ace_suares> and you say hey all the links should point outwards
[20:24] <LaserJock> here's my advice
[20:24] <ace_suares> and stuff
[20:24] <LaserJock> self-directed doesn't mean without discussion and advice
[20:24] <Ahmuck> i've done source building, and creating debs from checkinstall, but as i recall, ubuntu packaging is a rather contovlvultued process
[20:24] <ace_suares> yeah but who'll give advice if you don't
[20:25] <LaserJock> I can give advice
[20:25] <ace_suares> in fact that makes you a mentor
[20:25] <ace_suares> doent it?
[20:25] <LaserJock> but I can't be here 24x7 advising *after* the fact
[20:25] <ace_suares> and why not?
[20:25] <ace_suares> it's just a proposal
[20:25] <ace_suares> you can move things around after it is proposed
[20:25] <ace_suares> thats the goal of a proposal isn't it?
[20:25] <LaserJock> ok, well, frankly because we don't need a proposal so much
[20:26] <LaserJock> we need people to implement know things moreso
[20:26] <LaserJock> again, *not* that proposals are bad
[20:26] <ace_suares> implement as in coding?
[20:26] <LaserJock> no
[20:26] <ace_suares> or packaging?
[20:26] <LaserJock> no
[20:26] <LaserJock> as in writing content, deleting pages, etc.
[20:27] <ace_suares> omg
[20:27] <ace_suares> I am glad you wrote up that email yesterday
[20:27] <ace_suares> that's a good start
[20:27] <ace_suares> i rest my case for now
[20:27] <LaserJock> it's just that I'm going to be a bit slow
[20:28] <LaserJock> I'm in the middle of finish my PhD, moving across the US, starting a new job, selling a house
[20:28] <ace_suares> becasue you and I disagree that you need a good new structure before you can really move and delete
[20:28] <ace_suares> Hey it's okay to be slow
[20:28] <LaserJock> and my grandfather is in the hospital with terminal cancer at the moment
[20:28] <ace_suares> I ma not going to keep up that pace
[20:28] <LaserJock> I'm trying to do the best I can, but I'm a bit delayed right now
[20:28] <ace_suares> It's okay to be slow
[20:29] <ace_suares> as long as you say just those things that need saying
[20:29] <ace_suares> which you do
[20:29] <ace_suares> obviously
[20:29] <LaserJock> what I think it would have been a bit less frustrating if you'd asked about like the specs and links *first*
[20:29] <ace_suares> sorry about your grandfather
[20:29] <ace_suares> but what did i do with the specs?
[20:29] <LaserJock> I realize you probably didn't know
[20:29] <ace_suares> what did i do wrong
[20:29] <ace_suares> no i knew nothing
[20:29] <LaserJock> I don't know what you did, you may not have done anything
[20:29] <ace_suares> i fixed 4 specs
[20:30] <ace_suares> i added CategoryEdubuntuSpec which is usefull to me
[20:30] <LaserJock> the issue is that people will often just "cleanup" by deleting or moving specs
[20:30] <LaserJock> and that breaks things
[20:30] <ace_suares> oh man
[20:30] <ace_suares> i'd never do that
[20:30] <LaserJock> so ogra was just probably trying to make sure you didn't as it's been done before
[20:30] <ace_suares> i put two of them in proposed for removal
[20:30] <ace_suares> and ogra read that and expained that they should not be removed and so the system works!
[20:30] <LaserJock> yep
[20:31] <LaserJock> so as long as you don't get discouraged by that we're all good
[20:31] <LaserJock> you've learned a lot
[20:31] <ace_suares> i didn't delete i just put them in proposed for removel
[20:31] <LaserJock> you've done a lot
[20:31] <ace_suares> becasue that is the system
[20:31] <LaserJock> and we're all better for it
[20:31] <ace_suares> first flag them and let the knowers decide
[20:31] <ace_suares> that's the procedure that can work
[20:31] <ace_suares> like we discussed yesterday
[20:31] <LaserJock> yep
[20:32] <ace_suares> so we are good
[20:32] <ace_suares> there shoud be no fear on your side
[20:32] <ace_suares> that i will break things
[20:32] <ace_suares> and if i break something by accident
[20:32] <ace_suares> you cna revert easily can't you (can you revert deletions?)
[20:32] <LaserJock> I think we can revert everything
[20:33] <ace_suares> so even if i make an accident you, we can fix it
[20:33] <LaserJock> yep
[20:33] <ace_suares> so no fears then
[20:37] <Ahmuck> LJ, u need to concentrate on your dissert, and your new job imho
[20:38] <Ahmuck> anywho, i'm out for the afternoon.
[20:38] <Ahmuck> ace_suares: i followed the wiki links you gave, and that thing looks scary
[20:38] <Ahmuck> it's a mile long
[20:41] <Ahmuck> i'm not sure how to contribute to the wiki
[20:45] <Ahmuck> am i disconnected again?
[20:48] <Ahmuck> syn
[20:48] <LaserJock> well
[21:04] <ace_suares> Ahmuck: ?
[21:12] <ace_suares> bye for now!
[22:46] <dgroos1> Hi All
[22:48] <dgroos1> I'm trying to install CmapTools, an app that is critical in my classroom, as a localapp--if run on the server just 2-3 people using it overwhelms the server.
[22:49] <dgroos1> I can't figure how to install it on the chroot as it uses a graphical install--any ideas?
[22:51] <gavinmc> i gather it doesn't work to just chroot into it with DISPLAY set?
[22:54] <dgroos1> can you translate that to newbie-speak? :)
[22:54] <gavinmc> ah, sorry.
[22:55] <gavinmc> If you run something like "sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386" (or wherever your chroot is based)
[22:55] <gavinmc> and run it what happens?
[22:56] <gavinmc> you probably need to copy the file into the chroot before you do that.
[22:56] <gavinmc> should i explain what chroot does?
[22:57] <dgroos1> I get the prompt: root@gcos2:/#
[22:57] <dgroos1> That would be great!
[22:57] <gavinmc> chroot is short for CHange ROOT
[22:58] <gavinmc> if you chroot to a particular directory, you get a shell which sees that directory as / and cannot see anything outside that directory
[22:58] <gavinmc> that's what you've done.
[22:58] <gavinmc> (exit will get you out of it)
[22:58] <dgroos1> Ok... so then it would see the /opt... as the new root?
[22:59] <gavinmc> you (hopefully) can now run the installer in the chrooted environment.
[22:59] <gavinmc> exactly
[22:59] <dgroos1> and the DISPLAY you mentioned earlier is to get an xterminal?
[22:59] <dgroos1> or something...
[22:59] <gavinmc> DISPLAY is an "environment variable"
[23:00] <Ahmuck> dgroos1: there is a section in the ltsp manual on chroot iirc http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot
[23:00] <gavinmc> it's a setting for the shell and tells graphical commands what display to send their windows to
[23:00] <dgroos1> Ahmuck--I'll be reading it, thanks!
[23:00] <gavinmc> you can see it with "echo $DISPLAY"
[23:00] <gavinmc> you might but might not need to set it after running the chroot command
[23:01] <Ahmuck> dgroos1: moreever, after reading chroot, there is also a section on local apps.  for setting the local apps up.  i assume you've done this already
[23:02] <dgroos1> :) w/the echo command I got this response :0.0
[23:02] <Ahmuck> http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot
[23:02] <gavinmc> that means your sitting locally at the server.
[23:03] <Ahmuck> u actually need to enable localapps in your lts.conf file
[23:03] <dgroos1> Ahmuck: I've googled and read everything I can find/understand on localapps for days...
[23:04] <gavinmc> have you managed to set up any localapp (eg firefox)?
[23:04] <dgroos1> Ahmuck: right, the manual I do need to read that.
[23:04] <Ahmuck> the ltsp manual reading is essential to understanding how ltsp works.  it takes about an hour for me to read through it.
[23:04] <dgroos1> gavinmc: yes, I'm sitting at the server.  I have set up localapps and they are working (actually a volunteer has helped do that)
[23:04] <Ahmuck> it's an old saying but in this case it's fairly true
[23:05] <gavinmc> setting up an ltsp app usually (I think) involves running apt-get install ... within a chroot.
[23:05] <dgroos1> however, he hasn't been able to get the NAT working so can't use Firefox on the thin clients yet.
[23:05] <gavinmc> what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command
[23:06] <gavinmc> did you go through the steps in the wiki?
[23:07] <gavinmc> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
[23:08] <gavinmc> (for NAT that is)
[23:09] <dgroos1> gavinmc: when you say: "what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command" do you mean that I need to run a command to start the... I think I get it.  I'll try it in a few moments and get back!  Thanks!
[23:09] <gavinmc> What I'd try is:
[23:09] <dgroos1> And, yes he used that page as the basis of his work and considered using ace's alternative solution though with the cautions at the end decided against it.
[23:10] <gavinmc> 1. copy the installer file into the chroot. make sure it's executable (chmod +x <filename>)
[23:10] <gavinmc> 2.
[23:10] <gavinmc> 2. chroot /opt/ltsp.......
[23:10] <gavinmc> 3. ./<installerfile>
[23:11] <gavinmc> there are various reasons that might not work, but it's the first thing to try
[23:11] <gavinmc> as regards the NAT, I'd like to spend a few minutes debugging if you have time.
[23:11] <gavinmc> I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight
[23:13] <Ahmuck> gavinmc: i'd be interested in de-bugging that with you
[23:14] <Ahmuck> i've tried local apps and am failing
[23:14] <Ahmuck> when i start firefox, i get 404
[23:14] <dgroos1> gavinmc: "I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight" Cool--I appreciate that attention to quality as it makes someone who is barely beyond the cookbook application of knowledge, successful.
[23:15] <dgroos1> gavinmc: let me try to apply what you've taught me/told me first then I'll be back--will that work?  will you still be around?
[23:16] <Ahmuck> that's my same question.  i can get myself to the computer lab if  your going to be around today
[23:16] <gavinmc> I'm going to bed now I'm afraid. However, we could do it via email
[23:17] <gavinmc> my email is gmccullagh _at_ gmail _dot_ com
[23:17] <dgroos1> :) not 5:17 in the afternoon where you are :)
[23:17]  * Ahmuck hates gmail
[23:18] <gavinmc> better yet, could you email it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[23:18] <dgroos1> Shall I/we put it on the list serve to provide a resource for others?
[23:18] <dgroos1> right.
[23:18] <gavinmc> I'm not really very irc-clued so I'll trust your judgement on that one
[23:19] <gavinmc> ahmuck: do you hate it so much you won't send email to it?
[23:19] <Ahmuck> i'll send to edubuntu-users
[23:19] <Ahmuck> gavinmc: almost
[23:20] <dgroos1> actually, I asked if we oughtn't send it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>or was implying that anyway.
[23:20] <gavinmc> Basically, if either/both of you can mail that list with a descriptive subject like "nat howto didn't work"
[23:20] <gavinmc> and include the output of each "test" that would be a good start
[23:21] <gavinmc> ahmuck: :-)
[23:21] <dgroos1> test?
[23:21] <gavinmc> on the wiki page there are tests beside several of the steps
[23:22] <dgroos1> Will do.  And thanks for your help, gavinmc.
[23:22] <gavinmc> I can stay up a little longer if one of you can get to a server now?
[23:22] <Ahmuck> 15 min for me, but i do think i'll take it to the list
[23:23] <dgroos1> I can test it now... I'll try.
[23:23] <gavinmc> that'd be great.
[23:23] <gavinmc> I've obviously missed some trap somewhere that you guys are falling into
[23:24] <Ahmuck> my server works with ltsp, but it worked automagically.  i've not natted, but couldn't get firefox to work with ltsp
[23:24] <Ahmuck> in chroot/localapps
[23:24] <Ahmuck> if nat is that solution, i'll need to fix that
[23:24] <gavinmc> so, you have firefox running as a localapp, but it can't see webpages?
[23:25] <Ahmuck> yes
[23:25] <gavinmc> right. nat is probably what  you need.
[23:26] <Ahmuck> ah ... for some reason reading the ltsp manual, i did not notice that i needed nat for things to work, i'll review it again, i'm sure i missed it there
[23:27] <gavinmc> basically, if a standard thin client runs firefox, firefox runs on the ltsp server so it can connect to anything the ltsp server can
[23:27] <gavinmc> if firefox is running as a localapp, it can connect to anything the thin client itself can connect to.
[23:27] <dgroos1> Ahmuck: that info was VERY recently added to the jaunty localapps page at the bottom, I believe.
[23:28] <gavinmc> if you have a 2-interface server, your thin clients probably need to connect through the ltsp server and it needs to be told how to "NAT" them
[23:28] <gavinmc> dgroos1: by me, two days ago.
[23:28] <Ahmuck> k, that make sense
[23:28] <Ahmuck> running firefox as a localapp will help me greatly
[23:29] <gavinmc> if you haven't tried already, the steps here should hopefully get you there https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
[23:29] <gavinmc> feedback on this page is greatly appreciated
[23:33] <dgroos1> gavinmc: I'll give fine-tooth reactions on that page--my first is, in the practical instructions section, step 1, provide directions on how to see if the thin client can reach the internet.  I just tried: "ping google.com" and it worked, I don't think I would have known to do this 2 months ago, however...
[23:33] <gavinmc> okay, i xpected people to just open a web browser, but i can state that explicitly.
[23:34] <dgroos1> Hmmm... I guess I misunderstood then, I thought one uses this page when firefox on the thin client can't access the web?
[23:35] <dgroos1> OH--I got it, 'standard thin client' not as localapp!
[23:36] <dgroos1> But... if a person just installed firefox as a localapp, I'm not sure how I could run firefox in standard mode w/out undoing what was done in the localapps setup page... right?
[23:39] <gavinmc> I'm not certain how localapps are done at this point, i need to check the manual
[23:41] <dgroos1> well, if using Terminal and ping google.com is an acceptable test, that would be easiest...
[23:42] <dgroos1> Now, on to step 2 in the practical instructions area...
[23:42] <gavinmc> it's not a bad test, but it's not quite precise enough
[23:43] <gavinmc> Instead, just use firefox sitting at the server itself.
[23:43] <gavinmc> that's the test we really want, to make sure the server can connect.
[23:44] <dgroos1> OK right--that is kind of the same thing I guess.  OK--passed test 1.
[23:44] <dgroos1> OK, step 2... I see ip addresses all over the place, on both NIC's with ifconfig, on my router I've got different ip's  is there a command/description that will lead me to know the ip I need?
[23:45] <gavinmc> ifconfig will show you a stanza for each network interface
[23:45] <gavinmc> do i presume you have two network connections in your server?
[23:46] <dgroos1> yes indeed
[23:46] <gavinmc> okay, so they'll be called eth0 and eth1 (more than likely).
[23:46] <dgroos1> yes
[23:46] <Ahmuck> eth0, eth149 here
[23:47] <gavinmc> ahmuck: that's a little wierd, but okay.
[23:47] <gavinmc> what's the ip address of your main router?
[23:48] <dgroos1> What's the best way to find out?
[23:48] <Ahmuck> gavinmc: i've got an nvidia bug.  it recreated one of the interfaces on every boot
[23:48] <gavinmc> ahmuck: ouch. that's nasty.
[23:48] <gavinmc> dgroos1: run route -n on the ltsp server
[23:49] <gavinmc> an look at the line that says <IP_ADDRESS>
[23:49] <gavinmc> the gateway column tells you that.
[23:50] <gavinmc> tells you the ip address of your router i mean
[23:50] <dgroos1> it says: <IP_ADDRESS>
[23:50] <gavinmc> right. so what are the ip addresses of you server?
[23:50] <gavinmc> from ifconfig
[23:51] <dgroos1> <IP_ADDRESS> and <IP_ADDRESS>
[23:51] <dgroos1> eth0 and eth1 respectively
[23:51] <gavinmc> okay, the second one is the one on the main network. the first is the address of the card facing your thin clients. can you see how I tell that?
[23:52] <dgroos1> yes, thanks for asking!
[23:53] <gavinmc> so, in step2, what you're doing is telling the thin clients to connect to the internet through the ltsp server (<IP_ADDRESS> to them).
[23:54] <gavinmc> My test is a little ambiguous on reflection. I need to think about it for a minute
[23:57] <gavinmc> LTSP used to have more black and white local apps, which were simpler to deal with.  This isn't true any more
[23:58] <dgroos1> Is there any reason to not run all apps as local apps?
[23:58] <mhall119> dgroos1: thin clients are supposed to be thin
[23:59] <dgroos1> Thus Nubae's fat solution? :)
[23:59]  * mhall119 wasn't here for most of this conversation
[23:59] <dgroos1> So, still, why be surgical about it, why not run all apps?


[06:28] <amurray> mdeslaur: I have tried to follow along your discussion with ahasenack above but perhaps I'm still too jetlagged to entirely grok it - I can't entirely figure out what the ask is - IMO I don't think we should share homes by default but we do want to make it easy for users to opt-in to share their home
[06:28] <amurray> lets discuss more next week then you can ELI5 for me
[12:15] <mdeslaur> amurray: no worries, we can discuss it at a later time
[12:54] <amurray> ack
[16:29] <roberto_> Am I in the right place to discuss security issues in Ubuntu ?
[16:39] <ahasenack_> if you want to report an issue that is not public yet, then it's best done via the security contact email
[16:43] <roberto_> New to irc chat... but looking for a path to chat about ubuntu security issue I had today.
[16:46] <tomreyn> roberto_: this was "said" here after you left: <ahasenack_> if you want to report an issue that is not public yet, then it's best done via the security contact email
[16:46] <tomreyn> try to remain online for longer if you're hoping to talk to someone.
[16:47] <tomreyn> (some people use so-called "bouncers" or irc proxies for this purpose. get more help with irc in #libera)
[17:05] <roberto_> Thanks.  Had a few tweaks to make.  I've joined the email list and will take it there.
[18:44] <tsimonq2> Heya, I'm looking at the vim source for Lunar and seeing this upload in Debian which fixes quite a few CVEs: https://tracker.debian.org/news/1366839/accepted-vim-2900626-1-source-into-unstable/
[18:44] <tsimonq2> Does the Ubuntu Security Team already have an update staged for vim? Are these too low-prio? I'm willing to help if you guys just "haven't gotten to it yet"
[18:45] <tsimonq2> sarnold: Oh hey, seems you're community this week, hi :D
[18:48] <mdeslaur> tsimonq2: eslerm is working on some vim updates
[18:48] <tsimonq2> Sounds good, no worries then!
[18:49] <tsimonq2> I have a merge from Debian I'm finishing up for Lunar, I hope that's not duplicating work?
[18:49] <mdeslaur> tsimonq2: no, I don't think he's working on lunar
[18:49] <tsimonq2> Cool, thanks for the info!
[18:50] <mdeslaur> np!
[20:54] <teward> mdeslaur: not going to pry into anything because i know embargos, but i assume you and Sec Team are aware of and have timelines for release planned for the upcoming OpenSSL Critical Fixes they've announced as coming on their announce?
[20:58] <mdeslaur> teward: I can neither confirm nor deny
[20:58] <teward> ack
[20:58] <mdeslaur> haha yes, we're aware
[20:59] <teward> oh i can read between those lines easy ;)
[20:59] <teward> you forget, IT Security is my job :P
[20:59] <mdeslaur> hehehe
[20:59] <teward> cool just checking, but yeah i need no details i just wanted to make sure that the team is aware, i need no details because embargoes and stuff :)