[04:25] <ubuntu-goldfish> hey everyone!
[06:08] <shrini> hello
[14:39] <amjjawad> balloons: hi
[14:39] <amjjawad> balloons: have you found a new Headset/Mic? :D
[14:40] <balloons> I have quite the setup, but google doesn't like the mic
[14:40] <balloons> so it seems
[14:40] <balloons> how are you amjjawad ?
[14:41] <amjjawad> Oh, that is not good to know :/
[14:41] <amjjawad> Well, I finally slept more than 3 hours at night :D
[14:41] <amjjawad> So, I guess I am ready for the meeting
[14:41] <amjjawad> shall we test the voice quality if you wish?
[15:00] <balloons> ok hangout info is up, for whomever wants to be a part
[15:00] <chilicuil> I'll follow by irc =)
[15:02] <elopio> hello
[15:02] <cragdor> Hi
[15:02] <cragdor> Hasn't started yet
[15:04] <elopio> cragdor: it should start in 1 minute.
[15:05] <cragdor> Starting now.............
[15:05] <cragdor> Drat missed
[15:05] <amjjawad> hello everyone
[15:05] <amjjawad> balloons: is having tech issues with his internet
[15:05] <cgoldberg> hello amjjawad
[15:05] <amjjawad> cgoldberg: hi :)
[15:06] <balloons> just a moment my friends, sorry for the delay :-)
[15:06] <amjjawad> we were testing the hangout and there is a huge delay
[15:06] <amjjawad> tyt balloons
[15:06] <cragdor> NP
[15:06] <cragdor> Your hangout is hanging??
[15:07] <elopio> it hasn't started here.
[15:07] <amjjawad> there is delay guys
[15:07] <amjjawad> the voice reach after one min :D
[15:07] <amjjawad> hopefully we start soon :)
[15:08]  * chilicuil goes for some milk + cookies
[15:11] <cragdor> Can i sit now, i've been standing for a while now?!
[15:11] <cragdor> :)
[15:11] <amjjawad> cragdor: have a seat, please :P
[15:12] <balloons> Let's talk via IRC for the moment while I work on this
[15:12] <amjjawad> ok
[15:12] <balloons> I'm terribly sorry
[15:12] <amjjawad> no it is fine
[15:12] <amjjawad> it happens
[15:12] <cragdor> IRC FTW
[15:13] <balloons> ok, so welcome to the session on QA Community roles :-
[15:13] <balloons> check out the pad for the agenda
[15:13] <balloons> basically, let's talk about the new roles that have been created, and go through the ideas and questions.. any feedback is good, etc
[15:14] <amjjawad> balloons: I will hold my hope high waiting for the Hangout :D
[15:14] <amjjawad> so will keep my notes for now if that is okay
[15:14] <balloons> the big piece is to get some more work items around expanding the concept of roles and trying to make it easier for everyone to connect with and contribute to ubuntu quality
[15:14] <amjjawad> while waiting to go live, I'd like to share this with all:
[15:14] <amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnome-qa
[15:15] <chilicuil> are those roles gonna have their own lp groups or it'll be just a local distintion?, to make diferent wiki sections or somethink like that?
[15:15] <AlbertoSN> Isn't hangout working?
[15:15] <balloons> AlbertoSN, sadly at the moment no, so we're on IRC
[15:15] <AlbertoSN> Ou...
[15:15] <amjjawad> balloons: has sent an email on the QA Mailing List some months ago and I decided to be the driver for a focus group to find more testers and well, I guess Ubuntu GNOME QA Team has done a successful job :)
[15:16] <amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnome-qa
[15:16] <balloons> chilicuil, the roles are going to be local distinction imho
[15:16] <balloons> I don't see a need for different wiki sections
[15:16] <amjjawad> +1 no need for new Wiki or LP accounts
[15:17] <amjjawad> this is waste of time and resources IMHO
[15:17] <knome> launchpad groups are good if the teams need specific access to LP features though
[15:18] <amjjawad> knome: yes, but everyone can be part of one LP area better than dividing them :)
[15:18] <knome> amjjawad, i think you are missing my point
[15:18] <amjjawad> for two years, I guess I have seen the good side and the bad side of having so many sub-teams
[15:18] <ali1234> where is the video?
[15:19] <amjjawad> knome: I'd be very glad to know your point better :D
[15:19] <balloons> for context for anyone who hasn't seen the page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/
[15:19] <amjjawad> ali1234: we are having tech issue so hope we go live soon
[15:19]  * balloons is going live
[15:19] <balloons> reload the page
[15:20] <ali1234> working :)
[15:20] <AlbertoSN> Ouuu
[15:20] <AlbertoSN> Yes
[15:20] <Moshad> I didnt see the video window
[15:20] <Moshad> only chat
[15:20] <amjjawad> balloons: nothing here :/
[15:20] <chilicuil> live here
[15:20] <knome> balloons, i can see you.
[15:20] <AlbertoSN> :P
[15:21] <amjjawad> balloons: Waiting for people to join this video call...
[15:21] <Moshad> where is the link?
[15:21] <amjjawad> oh ok, link plz balloons
[15:21] <knome> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if4Tm5O9-Ws
[15:21] <AlbertoSN> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/
[15:21] <balloons> if you want to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpio1bovoaf61p6gt5i29hps?authuser=0&hl=en
[15:23] <AlbertoSN> Sorry, I'm unable to speak at this time; since people is sleeping
[15:23] <AlbertoSN> But latter
[15:24] <knome> did AlbertoSN just bark? ;)
[15:24] <AlbertoSN> Nou
[15:25] <AlbertoSN> My mic is muted
[15:25] <knome> i'm just kidding
[15:25] <AlbertoSN> :P
[15:25] <balloons> that was my dog, hah
[15:25] <amjjawad> balloons: can you hear me?
[15:25] <knome> me neither
[15:26] <amjjawad> balloons: sorry link again :P
[15:26] <chilicuil> I think those roles are enough
[15:26] <AlbertoSN> I can say I recently read the wiki, and it looks very well to me
[15:27] <chilicuil> about the mentorship process I'm not sure, that's a good idea, however I've seen a lot of previous attemps not only in the qa community and all of them had failed, so I wonder whether this new attempt will be sucessfully
[15:27] <amjjawad> balloons: link please :D
[15:27] <balloons> amjjawad, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpio1bovoaf61p6gt5i29hps?authuser=0&hl=en
[15:28] <chilicuil> +1 for better (video) tutorials
[15:28] <knome> having to commit to something might scare off some mentors.
[15:28] <knome> so +1 for informal stuff
[15:29] <knome> can't hear ali, but can see him opening his mouth
[15:30] <AlbertoSN> Yes, video is laggy
[15:30] <Moshad> network problem
[15:30] <Moshad> yeah
[15:30] <amjjawad> balloons:
[15:30] <amjjawad> the internet is so bad :(
[15:30] <AlbertoSN> Not mine
[15:30] <ali1234> video = unintelligible
[15:30] <amjjawad> balloons: there is delay
[15:31] <AlbertoSN> I'm so sorry to be unable to talk: I'll try now not making so much noise.
[15:31] <balloons> amjjawad, I'm sorry
[15:31] <dobey-uds> video is very skippy for balloons yes
[15:31] <Moshad> yes
[15:31] <chilicuil> heere as well
[15:31] <amjjawad> balloons: too bad :(
[15:31] <AlbertoSN> DO you hear me?
[15:31] <AlbertoSN> Video is frozen
[15:31] <amjjawad> anything can be done at all?
[15:31] <amjjawad> frozen here too
[15:32] <Moshad> here the sma
[15:32] <Moshad> same*
[15:32] <knome> sounds like balloons was inside a metallic tube
[15:32] <AlbertoSN> Yesss
[15:32] <AlbertoSN> Metalic sound
[15:32] <Moshad> freezing, and robotic
[15:32] <AlbertoSN> Nou
[15:32] <shadeslayer> something from the Kubuntu side of things, the current test cases for ISO's don't really make sense, so we made https://trello.com/b/sdTmhD0H/14-04-deadlines
[15:32] <shadeslayer> which has regressions we've experienced in the past
[15:33] <dobey-uds> balloons: yep, still choppy
[15:33] <dobey-uds> audio is choppy
[15:33] <ali1234> if you're asking "is this any better?": no, it's still awful
[15:33] <balloons> does the audio come through?
[15:33] <amjjawad> balloons: nop
[15:33] <knome> balloons, barely
[15:33] <amjjawad> nothing at all
[15:33] <Moshad> i cant understand a word
[15:33] <dobey-uds> elopio: say something
[15:33] <ali1234> audio comes through but it is impossible to tell what you are saying, you sound like peanuts
[15:33] <DanChapman> wow hangouts playing nasty today
[15:33] <dobey-uds> someone other than balloons in the hangout, say something
[15:34] <amjjawad> yes for what?? :D
[15:34] <balloons> can you hear the other participants in the hangouts?
[15:34] <ali1234> whoever just said "yes", sounds ok :)
[15:34] <balloons> let's keep going on IRC then. I'll type
[15:34] <ali1234> yes :)
[15:34] <balloons> so, in summary, current roles are fine and seem well documented. No other feedback here?
[15:35] <knome> AlbertoSN, yep!
[15:35] <balloons> we won't add a new mentorship role, but will encourage it to happen amongst the team informally
[15:35] <balloons> javier liked the idea of doing videos -- anything specific you'd like to see?
[15:35] <shadeslayer> I can't hear anyone :P
[15:35] <dobey-uds> ah
[15:35] <shadeslayer> except Nicholas
[15:35] <dobey-uds> everyone use AlbertoSN's mic to speak
[15:36] <knome> balloons, i think it would be a good idea to ask around a bit who might be willing to help with mentoring
[15:36] <AlbertoSN> So?
[15:36] <AlbertoSN> Do you hear me?
[15:36] <knome> ok, hangout is off
[15:36] <ali1234> ugh... hangout is totally gone now
[15:36] <DanChapman> balloons, I missed some at the start but i like the sound of javier's idea of video's.
[15:36] <AlbertoSN> So what shall be done?
[15:36] <amjjawad> can anyone hear me?
[15:36] <chilicuil> yeah, more step by step tutorials for everything with subtitles
[15:36] <AlbertoSN> Nou
[15:37] <high_fiver> balloons: you sounded like GLaDOS
[15:37] <Moshad> did you just broke the mic?
[15:37] <dobey-uds> nah, glados is intelligible
[15:37] <shadeslayer> balloons: video lagging
[15:37] <DanChapman> javier == chilicuil ?? (can't remember :-\ )
[15:37] <balloons> DanChapman, yes
[15:37] <Moshad> oh bad
[15:37] <knome> there is no hangout
[15:38] <balloons> ok, so let's cover the remaining ideas
[15:38] <DanChapman> balloons, thanks
[15:38] <chilicuil> I personally will like to see more autopilot, autopkg ones, however it would be good to have more about basically any qa related topic
[15:38] <elopio> dobey-uds: oh, sorry.
[15:38] <balloons> chilicuil, et la, is intro to each role video useful?
[15:39] <elopio> now it's off air, so I can't send my greetings to you.
[15:39] <balloons> yes sorry about the hangout :-)
[15:40] <knome> i'd prefer simple/low-level ones over more complex subjects on the videos
[15:40] <chilicuil> balloons: I don't think so, the wiki descriptions seems enough for me, however we could clasify videos and resources depending of the audience target, this for testers, those for writers, those for developers
[15:40] <dobey-uds> elopio: no, it's jut that only balloons was talking and i wanted other people to talk to see if the problem was google, or balloons :)
[15:41] <balloons> chilicuil, knome noted, thank you
[15:41] <AlbertoSN> Go http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/ again and see a surprise
[15:41] <balloons> anyone else any comments on videos?
[15:41] <knome> slow pace!
[15:41] <AlbertoSN> The video was uploaded, incompleted
[15:42] <amjjawad> balloons: how about one last try?
[15:42] <knome> don't rush with it; if you're taking the time to do a video, make sure it's slow enough so everybody can follow it
[15:42] <amjjawad> you reboot everything and let's try one last time?
[15:42] <balloons> knome, noted :-)
[15:42] <knome> (and subtitles in the video help)
[15:42] <balloons> knome, subtitles in english?
[15:42] <knome> i could possibly help with some editing if we want some fancy intro sections (or do we have such already)
[15:42] <knome> yep, subtitles in english
[15:43] <DanChapman> what areas are we wanting to do videos on?
[15:43] <amjjawad> DanChapman: basic tasks
[15:43] <Moshad> like?
[15:43] <amjjawad> to attract newcomers
[15:43] <knome> is there videos for the most basic iso/package testing?
[15:43] <knome> "how to report a bug"
[15:43] <amjjawad> knome: yes
[15:43] <knome> "how to report a test"
[15:43] <knome> "how to pick a test you want to run"
[15:43] <knome> "how to help debug/triage bugs"
[15:43] <amjjawad> the very basic tasks
[15:43] <DanChapman> knome, ack thanks
[15:43] <chilicuil> I'd also like to see more conection between the ubuntu qa community and the ubuntu +1 forums, I think we could grab fast some more collaborators if we could post specifically there more often
[15:43] <balloons> the idea was to make sure everything in the expanded roles section has a video
[15:44] <amjjawad> so that anyone with no previous experience can watch and learn :)
[15:44] <balloons> so knome specifically, not everything you mentioned exists atm
[15:44] <knome> i don't think too many developers need videos
[15:45] <balloons> knome, noted.. short, simple, basic stuff
[15:45] <Moshad> agree
[15:45] <balloons> I noted you offered to help :-)
[15:45] <knome> something like "how to build testing tools for development" could work
[15:45] <knome> but not complex issues like stuff on autopilot
[15:46] <knome> text-based documentation is much more accessible on such things
[15:46] <balloons> ok, I also wanted to go over exploratory testing a bit
[15:47] <balloons> one of the goals this cycle is to have the community take ownership over what and how we test. We're encouraging everyone to do exploratory testing all the time.. is this clear to everyone?
[15:47] <ali1234> no
[15:48] <balloons> so we need to clear that up then.. how can we communicate and clarify this?
[15:48] <ali1234> what exactly do you mean by "the community"?
[15:48] <balloons> bye AlbertoSN.. sorry for the troubles :-)
[15:48] <AlbertoSN> Bye bya
[15:49] <high_fiver> sound is goof
[15:49] <high_fiver> *good
[15:49] <balloons> ali1234, I mean the qa community team
[15:49] <balloons> everyone here and everyone who's not here but helps test :-)
[15:49] <knome> balloons, i would imagine people do exploratory testing already, but i'm not sure if people report bugs/issues as we want
[15:50] <balloons> knome, I agree. I would like to see people own bugs better and report them
[15:50] <balloons> to some extent I hope invoving the bugsquad helps with this
[15:50] <knome> at least we have several people in a cycle send emails to our -devel mailing list telling they "tested xubuntu" and had played around with it; but can't see them having sent error or bug reports
[15:50] <hggdh> there is a lot of ad hoc testing by people-at-large, but we do not currently have an easy way for the casual tester to report results
[15:50] <ali1234> as a person who reports bugs as and when i find them during normal use, i find that i am being asked to do it a totally different way every 6 months and it is becoming a burden
[15:51] <ali1234> for example 2 years ago it was enough to do an apport bug. now i'm being asked "oh, also do an iso test" or "oh, also write a test case"
[15:51] <balloons> ali1234, I'd like it to be enough to report a bug. I want to informalize how you find it
[15:52] <DanChapman> balloons, it is clear to me. But what about aswell as just saying 'all the time do a weekly call for testing' on the mailing list with an area to 'explore' for that week which will break some newcomers into what areas they should be exploring and an get an idea of how to get involved?
[15:54] <balloons> DanChapman, it's an idea.. I assume over the course of a week people can accomplish something
[15:54] <balloons> it was my intent when we did cadence testing
[15:54] <balloons> we're at the end of the session. I think I'd like to talk about this again, so let's plan to do it. And continue the conversation
[15:54] <knome> i think the area which needs clarifying is the priority an proportion of exploratory/general testing
[15:54] <balloons> i'll add it to another session or we'll talk on the list
[15:54] <balloons> knome, I agree.. I want to see this be clarified, easy to understand, and doable
[15:54] <knome> eg. should one rather get a test done one or twice than do some exploratory testing
[15:55] <balloons> Well I'd like to see the general tests run, then exploratory testing
[15:55] <ali1234> exploratory testing happens all the time whenever anyone is doing anything
[15:55] <balloons> so run the outlined tests at least once :-) but then go wild
[15:55] <ali1234> half the bugs i find, i find them while investigating (or even attempting to report) another bug
[15:55] <knome> and possibly write down some examples what exploratory testing can be and specify the goals (eg. report bugs that you wouldn't find with the regular testing)
[15:55] <knome> balloons, for me, that clarifies it a lot
[15:55] <balloons> all good stuff..  We'll chat again on this soon
[15:56]  * balloons copies out the conversation bits
[15:56] <DanChapman> balloons, another session sounds good
[15:56] <balloons> thanks everyone!
[15:56] <knome> balloons, one last thing is that i think package testing helps a bit with exploratory testing
[15:56] <knome> they are kind of directed to the same direction, fulfilling the same need
[15:58] <knome> pleia2, o/
[15:59] <balloons> brb to start the docs sessoin
[15:59] <high_fiver> yep
[16:02] <knome> hey jjfrv8 :)
[16:03] <jjfrv8> hi, knome
[16:03] <YoBoY> hi
[16:03] <pmatulis> is there supposed to be video?
[16:03] <pleia2> starts at :05 :)
[16:03] <TheLordOfTime> pmatulis: two minutes out ;)
[16:03] <pmatulis> gah
[16:03] <knome> lets hope so... there were quite some problems with the hangouts during the last session
[16:04] <pmatulis> lemme send microwaves through my café
[16:10]  * knome pokes balloons
[16:10] <pleia2> oh good, it's not just me :)
[16:10] <pleia2> we're already 5 minutes in :(
[16:10] <balloons> sry'
[16:12] <knome> fortunately it's the lunch break after this session so we're not that tight on time
[16:12] <pmatulis> so no vid
[16:12] <pleia2> I have to get to work :\
[16:12] <knome> not yet at least
[16:13] <knome> pleia2, have fun. i'll volunteer you for all the things nobody else wants to do as we agreed
[16:13] <pleia2> haha
[16:13] <pleia2> nah, I'm around for this session
[16:13] <knome> bah ;)
[16:13] <pleia2> just not hours into lunch ;)
[16:13] <knome> lol
[16:13]  * knome prods balloons
[16:13] <pleia2> maybe we just start this here in IRC?
[16:14] <knome> fair
[16:14] <YoBoY> +1
[16:14] <dsmythies> Yes, lets start
[16:14] <godbyk> pleia2: Sounds good to me.
[16:14] <hannie> +1
[16:14] <pleia2> ok, topic 1: How we can improve the "getting started contributing" process
[16:14] <knome> know which tasks need to be done.
[16:14] <balloons> sorry, can everyone see the session?
[16:14] <balloons> is anyone going to join?
[16:14] <pleia2> we made improvements this cycle on at least getting some of our desktop contributor docs, so that's good
[16:14] <knome> balloons, says "stand by"
[16:15] <pleia2> balloons: we gave up :)
[16:15] <bregma> maybe someone has to join the session?
[16:15] <knome> maybe balloons should share the link where people can try to join
[16:16] <pmatulis> why is there no vid?
[16:16] <bregma> the link is above the video window
[16:16] <balloons> hello?
[16:16] <balloons> I feel like no one is hearing my irc pings :-)
[16:16] <knome> balloons, pong
[16:16] <pleia2> bregma: I don't see a join link
[16:17] <knome> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjd70fft3117g2ln06viv8s?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:17] <balloons_uds> join up: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjd70fft3117g2ln06viv8s?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:17] <hannie> I see Please stand by. Starting soon....
[16:17] <bregma> "Join the Hangout on Air" right above the video box ... you probably need to be logged in
[16:17] <TheLordOfTime> i think you do
[16:17] <balloons> join the hangout and we'll start
[16:17] <TheLordOfTime> the page doesn't show the link unless you've logged in apparently
[16:17] <pleia2> ugh
[16:17]  * TheLordOfTime tested on chrome (logged in) and firefox (not logged in)
[16:18] <pmatulis> you need to join to see the video?  wtf?
[16:18] <knome> pmatulis, to see the "join the hangout" link.
[16:18] <balloons> k should be live
[16:18] <TheLordOfTime> yep
[16:18] <TheLordOfTime> just refresh the page if you still see "standby starting soon"
[16:19]  * gQuigs it's live for me
[16:19] <knome> it's live now
[16:19] <knome> pleia2, say something
[16:19] <pleia2> there
[16:19] <balloons> ok, I can't run the session very well as it's quite noisy here
[16:19] <pmatulis> the main screen has a blue avatar thingy
[16:20] <pleia2> I said I'd help with the session, specifically not run it :P
[16:20] <balloons> if someone else can walk through the agenda, we should be ready to roll
[16:20] <knome> pleia2, just to test the voice works...
[16:20] <Parbo> voice works
[16:21] <knome> somebody pick up running the session
[16:21] <pleia2> :)
[16:22] <knome> thanks godbyk!
[16:23] <knome> yeah, *we* should know what needs done first
[16:23] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[16:25] <pmatulis> arghh, crosstalk
[16:25] <Parbo> I hear every sentence twice.
[16:25] <dsmythies> I cann't seem to get onto the hangout. will continue...
[16:26] <Parbo> a lot of echo, noise
[16:26] <pleia2> Parbo: do you have the window open twice?
[16:26] <Parbo> yes :(
[16:26] <Parbo> ok now
[16:27] <knome> we should look if we can merge some of the content across the different platforms
[16:28] <pmatulis> wow
[16:28] <pmatulis> this is not workable from my side
[16:28] <pmatulis> anyone else hearing everything twice?
[16:29] <godbyk> pmatulis: Pause the YouTube video on the summit.ubuntu.com page.
[16:29] <pmatulis> godbyk: ha ha, gotcha
[16:30] <knome> yeah, but there are also help.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community
[16:30] <knome> is help.ubuntu.com what's essentially installed/shipped in ubuntu?
[16:30] <knome> oh, the pad answers that.
[16:31] <pleia2> pad++
[16:31] <knome> so what's the primary documentation new contributors should start working with?
[16:32] <knome> "nice long" ?
[16:32] <knome> :P
[16:32] <Parbo> I think it very inconvenient to work using bug reports
[16:34] <knome> but the wiki is scarce and outdated.
[16:34] <knome> peterm-ubuntu, exactly!
[16:35] <knome> +1 for housekeeping
[16:36] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
[16:36] <knome> tagging is okay, but the most important thing would be to have a good structure that's at all times visible on the wiki/pages
[16:37] <knome> and take care of linking orphans or deleting them.
[16:38] <knome> the community wiki could do with a similar navigation than xubuntu has in the main wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/
[16:41] <workingwriter> Can you make the wiki a sandbox for new system doc content?
[16:41] <knome> yep, either it's not documentation or it should be maintained by the doc team
[16:41] <knome> the community wiki says: This is a reference for Ubuntu-related "Howtos, Tips, Tricks, and Hacks."
[16:41] <workingwriter> "community help wiki" I like that!
[16:42] <pleia2> that's what it's called now :)
[16:42] <NikTh> But it has the note : "Note that this is not the official documentation. "
[16:42] <knome> nonetheless i think we need to clean it up and try to make it even a bit structured
[16:42] <NikTh> Maybe we can make it bold or a header or something.
[16:43] <workingwriter> if something hasn't been updated in years (heck, pre-Unity), label it 'expired'?
[16:44] <knome> if something is expired, delete it
[16:45] <pmatulis> delete.old.wiki.pages++
[16:46] <pmatulis> OR
[16:46] <Parbo> Ever heard of this team https://launchpad.net/~ubforums2ubwiki
[16:46] <dsmythies> yes, people need to use it and submit merge proposals
[16:46] <pmatulis> an update that the page *will be deleted* soon
[16:48] <dsmythies> We need to fix some GNOME issues
[16:48] <dsmythies> ... with the tools
[16:49] <dsmythies> see my notes in the blueprint page. Re developers don't help
[16:49] <pleia2> have a link to the blueprint handy? if I open the summit page again it causes youtube chaos
[16:50] <workingwriter> Pleia2: See Links at bottom of screen
[16:50] <knome> pleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1311-docteam-roundtable
[16:51] <pleia2> knome: thanks
[16:52] <workingwriter> Newbie Q: Can blueprints that are scheduled for a release be shared with DocTeam?
[16:53] <balloons> workingwriter, what do you mean?
[16:55] <workingwriter> So, if a particular feature is going to be included in a release (as opposed to something to be fixed down the line), can Docs be notified?
[16:56] <dsmythies> I'm sorry that I never figured out how to join the hangout... I tried the whole hour
[16:57] <TheLordOfTime> dsmythies: login to the summit page first.  then the link will show up for joining the specific hangout
[16:57] <dsmythies> I did
[16:57] <pleia2> dsmythies: anything else to add?
[16:57] <pleia2> (sorry you couldn't join :\)
[16:57] <balloons> workingwriter, yes that is what we hope to fix, but it's not so simple
[16:57] <dsmythies> My notes are all on the blueprint page, most of which we didn't get to
[16:57] <balloons> the devs aren't going to notify you directly :-)
[16:58] <teolemon> any possibilities to turn desktop ans
[16:58] <teolemon> server guide into latex guide
[16:58] <teolemon> s
[16:58] <workingwriter> Start planning for Touch now!
[16:58] <Parbo> Will this log be sent to the list?
[16:58] <teolemon> printed like ubuntu manual ?
[17:00] <pleia2> teolemon: we use mallard because that's what upstream gnome uses, I don't see us converting it all to latex
[17:00] <pleia2> might be able to produce PDFs from mallard
[17:01] <balloons> pleia2, everyone, sorry for the troubles at the start. Thanks for the session ;-)
[17:01] <teolemon> pleia2 : thanks, that'd be a great thing.
[17:02] <pleia2> dsmythies: I'll try to go through the blueprint and make sure your items are on the agenda for the next IRC meeting
[17:02] <dsmythies> Thanks
[17:02] <pleia2> we pretty much just did the basic agenda noted at the top of the blueprint
[17:03] <pleia2> time for breakfast! :)
[17:03] <dsmythies> me too
[17:03] <godbyk> time for brunch here. :)
[17:04]  * NikTh is away: I'll be back.. later.
[17:49] <balloons> hangout url is up for the startup disk creator session
[17:51] <balloons> thibaut`, howdy
[17:52] <balloons> thibaut`, the notes should be embedded on the page
[17:52] <balloons> do you see them?
[17:52] <balloons_uds> the hangout url is https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en
[17:53] <balloons_uds> feel free to join
[17:53] <balloons> thibaut`, ahh, you need to be a part of the etherpad team. we'll fix you right now
[17:53] <balloons_uds> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
[17:55] <balloons> thibaut`, ok I added you as a member
[17:55] <balloons> reload and try again
[17:56] <cgoldberg> la_juyis, i can't login to summit.ubuntu.com.  says my username is already in use.  any ideas?
[17:57] <balloons_uds> thibaut`:I added https://launchpad.net/~k1au3-is-37 as a member of the team
[17:57] <balloons_uds> finally signing out and signing back in should work
[17:57] <balloons_uds> *fully signing out
[17:59] <la_juyis> cgoldberg, o.O
[17:59] <la_juyis> cgoldberg, are you using your SSO info?
[18:00] <thibaut`> I use the OpenID
[18:00] <cgoldberg> la_juyis, yea
[18:01] <gQuigs> is the hangout link available?
[18:02] <balloons> feel free to join the hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en
[18:02] <balloons> gQuigs, ^^
[18:02] <la_juyis> cgoldberg, no idea. when does it say so?
[18:03] <cgoldberg> la_juyis, after I click Login and enter credentials.. from agenda page
[18:04] <la_juyis> cgoldberg, if you check in login.ubuntu.com, do you see summit as one of the sites you're logged in?
[18:04] <balloons> feel free to join the hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en
[18:04] <balloons> we'll start in a min
[18:04] <cgoldberg> la_juyis, yes.. says i 'm authenticated
[18:05] <la_juyis> cgoldberg, maybe reload summit?
[18:06] <cgoldberg> la_juyis, i tried.  it's ok.. jopining hangouts works
[18:07] <xnox> ..
[18:07] <xnox> if CD and USB disk are plugged into computer, it's a single click experience.
[18:07] <xnox> ..
[18:08] <xnox> last time usb-creator session was held, there are known bugs to fix, yet there were no developers willing to work on usb-creator.
[18:08] <smb> though i386 experience is a one clock to crash one quite often
[18:09] <xnox> smb: sure, the solution to that was (a) fix bugs in udisks (b) use direct "dd" method, instead of current partition and move files around.
[18:09] <jderose> FYI, this is something that System76 is interested in. The one thing that I'd add to the list of UX goal is that in should verify the signatures of the ISOs.
[18:10] <xnox> smb: noone wanted to implement that at the time =) nor had time.
[18:10] <smb> xnox, Sounds very familiar ;-P
[18:10] <xnox> jderose: that would be nice.
[18:10] <balloons> xnox, I use the dd approach :-)
[18:11] <jderose> we want the standard  ISO to be the restore procedure, so making this easier and more secure is very good
[18:11] <xnox> smb: not sure where this specifiction was proposed. but e.g. nobody approached ubuntu-installer@ mailing list about working on usb-creator....
[18:11] <balloons> jderose, so you want sha1 or mf5sum verify?
[18:11] <xnox> jderose: have you seen lp:dell-recovery project? which can restore/reinstall from usb or recovery partitions.
[18:11] <xnox> jderose: a few OEMs use that.
[18:12] <smb> xnox, Could not say, the first time I saw this was it appearing as a session here
[18:12] <jderose> balloons: verify SHA256SUMS.gpg, SHA256SUMS
[18:13] <jderose> xnox: no, i haven't... very interesting, thanks!
[18:13] <cprofitt> my one concern is that the tool be able to make startup disks from non-Ubuntu iso
[18:14] <jderose> cprofitt: but aren't  there already many tools out there for arbitrary ISOs?
[18:14] <xnox> cprofitt: at the moment it is indeed very *buntu live-cd specific. if one implements a method which uses "dd" to wipe _all_ data off the usb-disk, then any ISO from any distribution would work.
[18:14] <xnox> (as well as UEFI & SB support)
[18:15] <cprofitt> xnox: why would the disk need to be wiped differently to burn an Ubuntu iso vs. a Fedora iso?
[18:15] <amjjawad> balloons: is it fine now? :D
[18:16] <xnox> cprofitt: if one is using "dd" to blast any iso on the disk, then any existing data/partitions will no longer be accessible.
[18:16] <amjjawad> so, shall I get ready for the last session or better too sleep? hehe balloons
[18:16] <balloons> amjjawad, what do you mean?
[18:16] <amjjawad> the technical issue?!
[18:16] <amjjawad> you had
[18:16] <balloons> amjjawad, yes
[18:16] <xnox> cprofitt: at the moment the core feature of usb-creator is that it's trying to be non-destructive and can use existing partitions, or repartition and keep existing partitions.
[18:16] <amjjawad> coz I see everything is okay :D
[18:16] <amjjawad> good, then see you in 45mins ;)
[18:16] <xnox> cprofitt: unfortunetely that also makes it unstable =)
[18:17] <cprofitt> xnox in my particular case I was trying to take a vmware iso and burn it to a USB stick, but start disk creator would not even recognize the iso file
[18:18] <cprofitt> it would be good to either let user know the .iso is not supported or make it work with other iso files
[18:18] <xnox> cprofitt: correct. but you can do it with "dd" e.g. "dd if=fo.iso of=/dev/sdb" would work.
[18:18] <xnox> cprofitt: hence why it is widely agreed, if usb-creator did simply UI around executing "dd" it would make usb-crator ISO agnostic.
[18:19] <amjjawad> has anyone seen this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1958073
[18:19] <amjjawad> perhaps it will help the topic :)
[18:20] <cprofitt> xnox: I did end up doing it with dd, but it would have been nice to have the start up disk program tell me that it would not recognize non-Ubuntu isos
[18:20] <jderose> re backend library: there isn't much needed, and this is something i've been experimenting with. i think the dd-like approach is the best approach, and it's very easy to do this is a way that gives a good user experience (aka, a progress bar that reflects the true projects)
[18:21] <xnox> cprofitt: i see.
[18:22] <balloons> jderose, xnox care to describe the dd approach more?
[18:22] <xnox> balloons: so at the moment usb-creator: creates or re-uses existing partition on the usb-stick, installs a boot loader into mbr, and puts the files off the iso on the usb-stick such that at boot they are found.
[18:23] <xnox> balloons: with "dd", one has graphical UI about executing "dd if=my.iso of=/dev/sdb" which blasts bit-to-bit identical .iso image to the usb stick.
[18:24] <xnox> balloons: it's more realiable and gives you UEFI & SecureBoot support and supports any .iso out there (debian, fedora, etc)
[18:24] <jderose> (er, i'm not suggesting to wrap dd because you can't deliver a progress bar this way. but i'm saying to do something dd-like)
[18:24] <xnox> jderose: correct =)
[18:24] <xnox> jderose: one can send signals to dd to get progress information FYI, see man page.
[18:24] <balloons> jderose, xnox.. ahh so merely you think it would be useful to support any iso, but be geared towards ubuntu?
[18:25] <xnox> balloons: the downside to "dd" method is that one no-longer can use usb-disk for anything else e.g.: no persistance support, no ability to keep existing files, nor use the rest of the available space at all.
[18:25] <balloons> xnox, yes indeed it is a downside
[18:25] <xnox> (e.g. a 32GB usb-stick, becomes a 900MB stick which has Read-only ubuntu iso only)
[18:25] <xnox> jderose: see $ man dd
[18:25] <balloons> xnox, et la, would we rather have it stupidly simple and rock solid or ?
[18:26] <balloons> xnox, well, heh, yea I suppose that ends up problematic
[18:26] <jsjgruber-uds> The current .iso's have the have CD-device-dependent stuff on it to change the ongoing process. Whether to launch the CD to test Ubuntu, or to do an install for example.
[18:27] <jsjgruber-uds> There are different versions of syslinux.
[18:27] <or211> I am using unetbootin with a slightly modified ubuntu 12.04 iso file and it creates a bootable stick with persistent storage
[18:27] <xnox> jsjgruber-uds: i'm sorry, i don't understand what you said at all.
[18:28] <jderose> balloons: yes, i think the biggest UX holes are downloading the ISO, verifying the ISO, finding where you saved the file, etc. i'd like a one stop, one screen tool. especially for the System76 restore procedure :)
[18:28] <xnox> or211: "persistance" is easy create partition or a file, and pass a boot option to that partition/file.
[18:28] <jsjgruber-uds> xnox : just booting a .iso that is copied to a usb stick won't work by itself.
[18:28] <xnox> or211: it's the same as with usb-creator.
[18:28] <chiluk> has anyone here actually attempted to fix usb-creator?
[18:29] <jderose> this was one of my little python3 prototypes for doing a synchronous dd-like write - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jderose/+junk/scripts/view/head:/usb-create.py
[18:29] <xnox> jsjgruber-uds: right, if one copies it as a file => inedeed it doesn't work. But if one uses "dd" and replace the whole block device (/dev/sdb, not /dev/sdb1). Then the usb-stick will boot in BIOS, UEFI, and SecureBoot valires.
[18:29] <or211> Yes but unetbootin will not generate a stick with persistent storage with the standard ubuntu 12.04 iso
[18:29] <xnox> jsjgruber-uds: not that dd is block level copy, not file-level copy. and then the bootloader as provided by the iso will be used.
[18:30] <xnox> or211: ah, that's bad. a regression compared with usb-creator.
[18:30]  * xnox doesn't know much how unetbootin works under the hood.
[18:30] <or211> I modified the initrd to create the persistence file at first boot
[18:31] <xnox> =/
[18:31] <xnox> sounds scary.
[18:31] <or211> ;)
[18:32] <or211> you do not have to create a partition.. you can create a file if the file system is read write...
[18:33] <or211> my persistence file is also encrypted
[18:33] <xnox> usb-creator uses the file approach by default.
[18:33] <popey> pad is back
[18:33] <xnox> not encrypted however, which is also an often requested feature.
[18:34] <or211> Encrypted penitence file are often required in enterprise environments
[18:34] <or211> unetbootin are also available on Mac
[18:36] <chiluk> i have another solution... copy iso directly to fat32 usb stick.. install grub2, and use loopback to boot the iso directly
[18:37] <chiluk> that's what I do personally, and manually
[18:37] <xnox> making usb-creator cross-platform would be cool. At the moment we don't have any ubuntu branded app to do that. in the past it was suggested to extend wubi to support that.
[18:37] <xnox> chiluk: sure, does that work with UEFI/SecureBoot?
[18:38] <chiluk> it should work... i think.
[18:38] <chiluk> you'd just have to install grub-efi, and loopback boot the secure kernel
[18:38] <xnox> chiluk: i'd be happy with loopback if we could extract / reuse the signed shim from the iso and stick in the right path on the partion.
[18:38] <xnox> chiluk: well the first loader must be signed =)
[18:38] <chiluk> xnox, you know more than me about that.
[18:38] <chiluk> I'd defer to your experience
[18:39] <xnox> chiluk: last time I couldn't manage to use grub2 loopback, do you have any tutorials / examples / stored notes how to use it?
[18:39] <chiluk> xnox the grub you install to the usb key could be signed
[18:39] <smb> xnox, Maybe that still works https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/MultipleISOBootUSBKey
[18:39] <chiluk> xnox this looks similar to what I do https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/ISOBoot/Examples
[18:40] <chiluk> although I haven't set it up to work with my uefi machines yet.. so I don't knwo.
[18:40] <xnox> smb: chiluk: excellent! i'll see if that works for BIOS, and that will be more reliable than current methods.
[18:41] <xnox> smb: chiluk: and if that is already grub2 it should be fairly compatible with grub-efi / SecureBoot.
[18:41] <smb> xnox, It says grub.cfg in the instructuions so it should be grub2
[18:42] <xnox> =)
[18:43] <jsjgruber-uds> Before release I think it's very important to test on many computers. There seem to be many problems on askubuntu with people trying to use disk creator that seem to depend on their hardware or configuration...and it's hard to help them remotely.
[18:43] <xnox> jsjgruber-uds: true dat, the problem however is with "ubuntu-1" creating "ubuntu+1" images. thus a fixed ubiquity for trusty, will for the first time be properly used by trusty users to create e.g. "trusty+1,+2 etc" images =/
[18:44] <xnox> s/ubiquity/usb-creator/
[18:45] <Azendale> I haven't been able to be present for all of this session. But the mockup does not have a browse option, which seems like it should have if it's an app someone will use just once.
[18:46] <balloons> Azendale, what do you mean browse?
[18:46] <balloons> plan is to show just ubuntu images, but allow any to be loaded
[18:46] <Azendale> for an ISO on the hard drive that is not where the application searches by default
[18:46] <balloons> that would be allowed
[18:47] <Azendale> balloons: would that require going into the preferences?
[18:48] <balloons> Azendale, everything is a mockup for now
[18:48] <Azendale> balloons: ok
[18:48] <balloons> but no
[18:48] <balloons> ;-)
[18:49] <nuclearbob-mobil> I'm interested in maybe some of the Dev work
[18:49] <cprofitt> gotta run to a meeting folks... good session thanks
[18:51] <nuclearbob-mobil> Whichever involves the most python3
[18:52] <nuclearbob-mobil> Yeah, I'll take a look
[18:52] <jderose> er, Thibaut Brandscheid: what IRC nick are you? :)
[18:57] <Azendale> If anyone is trying to make something that uses Zsync as a library, look at https://code.launchpad.net/~azendale/+junk/zsync-gtk
[18:58] <Azendale> It's not finished, but it's a start at librarifying zsync (so in my case I could make a gui)
[18:58] <balloons> xnox, chiluk if you wouldn't mind adding a note about your approach with grub2 that would be great
[18:58] <jderose> Azendale: neat, i'll check it out
[18:58] <balloons> feel free to grab an action to just report back to the blueprint your findings if you don't mind
[18:59] <balloons> xnox, chiluk ^^ TYTY
[18:59] <balloons> Azendale, interesting..
[18:59] <amjjawad> balloons: before we go on air for the last session today, let's test me and you the quality of voice, please :)
[19:00] <balloons> hangout details for qa && bugsquad are up
[19:00] <knome> yay
[19:00] <TheLordOfTime> balloons: link please
[19:00] <xnox> balloons: i think i'll just implement grub2 in usb-creator upstream, as i am upstream. I wasn't watching the video of this session as I had a conflict.
[19:00] <TheLordOfTime> (system isn't pointing me to the Hangout link)
[19:00] <balloons> amjjawad, I've no choice on my current setup.. you get what you get
[19:00] <balloons> for better or worse :-)
[19:00] <amjjawad> balloons: :(
[19:00] <amjjawad> okay, let's see - link please balloons :)
[19:00] <balloons_uds> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:00] <balloons_uds> hangout link ^^
[19:00] <xnox> balloons: it's kind of sad that nobody from existing usb-creator / installer team was asked to be here. or that none of these plans where discussed with the right people ahead of time.
[19:03] <TheLordOfTime> not sure if my audio is working... :/
[19:05] <elfy> TheLordOfTime: we'll soon see ;)
[19:05] <elfy> or hear
[19:05] <elfy> or not :p
[19:05] <TheLordOfTime> apparently it works for me :)
[19:05] <balloons_uds> anyone who wants to join the hangout, please do so: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:06] <balloons> xnox, I tried to broadcast to everyone. it seemed like dustin was going to come
[19:06] <balloons> but he didn't?
[19:07] <balloons> k, starting time
[19:07] <knome> yes please
[19:08] <xnox> balloons: dustin?! the people who worked on usb creator are Ev, Colin Watson and I.....
[19:11] <balloons> xnox, whoops
[19:11] <balloons> xnox, :-( My apologies for grabbing the wrong people.
[19:12] <xnox> balloons: =) well, next time "core" packages come into community track ask around "core" track what to do with them? =)
[19:14] <balloons_uds> bdmurray: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:14] <balloons_uds> or anyone else wanting in the hangout, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:14] <knome> elfy, ^
[19:15] <knome> +1 for keeping those parts separated
[19:19] <j_f-f> but communication needs to be improved
[19:19] <knome> there are basically always too little testers; we did get nice results last time though and were able to pump up the tests greatly
[19:20] <elfy> indeed
[19:21] <AlbertoSN> Link?
[19:21] <knome> i think these concerns are partly unrelated to merging the teams
[19:21] <TheLordOfTime> [13/11/19 14:14:27] <balloons_uds> or anyone else wanting in the hangout, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:21] <AlbertoSN> ;)
[19:21] <knome> i suppose both of the teams struggle with similar problems
[19:21] <amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnome-qa
[19:22] <knome> but ultimately, there is overlap on the tasks for both teams, so it definitely makes sense to merge
[19:23] <knome> we have 118 members in ~xubuntu-testers, but many of those think testing is something different than the developers do.
[19:23] <chilicuil> the qa team in my opinion requires the experience of bug control, we're not going anywhere if we're not at least triaging the bugs we find
[19:23] <knome> it's possible some of them are just badge collectors
[19:24] <balloons> knome, badge collectors, heh?
[19:24] <knome> balloons, yeah, just collecting those team badges in LP
[19:24] <elfy> make it moderated? I'd rather know I definitely had 15 than might have 100 :)
[19:24] <Letozaf_> maybe involving Local Coomunity Teams to spread the word for the need of testers would be a good idea, they could reach out to people we cannot reach using usual means
[19:24] <balloons> moderation is a possibiity
[19:24] <knome> elfy, you're the administrator... :)
[19:24] <knome> +1 for chilicuil's comment
[19:24] <elfy> :)
[19:25] <knome> both reporting a test and being able to triage the bugs in the report look like an integral part of QA
[19:25] <knome> in the beginning, i assume the teams will keep working as they are working now
[19:26] <elfy> many people are just going to wander off if they look at the triaging wiki ;)
[19:26] <balloons> elfy, wiki too crazy?
[19:26] <knome> balloons, rather the triaging instructions ;)
[19:27] <elfy> balloons: when I looked it was a 'riiiight, ok then' moment ;)
[19:27] <ali1234> link?
[19:27] <elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
[19:28] <knome> i think it depends on the person if they prefer wiki or video
[19:28] <elfy> of course
[19:28] <knome> we could cover these questions on the videos we talked before
[19:29] <j_f-f> +100 amjjawad
[19:31] <knome> yep, low-hanging fruit ++
[19:33] <knome> if you want to put it other way, think like the tasks the ubuntu bugsquad are doing are tasks for yet another role or two
[19:39] <balloons> any other concerns for merging?
[19:39] <amjjawad> balloons: what was your Q? sorry, couldn't hear it
[19:39] <elfy> balloons: I'm in agreement with merging the team ;)
[19:40] <knome> +1 for merging.
[19:40] <Letozaf_> I think testing and taking care of bugs is closely related so +1 to merging
[19:45] <amjjawad> I think having one mailing list is logical to me
[19:45] <elfy> bdmurray: totally agree with that
[19:45] <knome> does the bugsquad mailing list have any automated mails?
[19:45] <elfy> we agreed on something amjjawad :D
[19:45] <amjjawad> elfy: oh yes indeed ;)
[19:46] <knome> my only concern is if -bugsquad is too high traffic
[19:46] <amjjawad> knome: no it is not
[19:46] <chilicuil> I'd like to see automated msgs from the qa ubuntu new report testers to #ubuntu-bugs to help bring them attention, not sure if we should mix the channels
[19:46] <bdmurray> no
[19:46] <amjjawad> I am subscribed to it and there is no much traffic
[19:46] <knome> in that case +1 for merging those as well.
[19:46] <amjjawad> knome: good :D
[19:49] <knome> and let's not rename pages either.
[19:49] <amjjawad> knome: +1
[19:49] <elfy> agreed
[19:50] <amjjawad> elfy: we agreed again ;)
[19:50] <elfy> :)
[19:50] <amjjawad> so what other things we need to discuss beside mailing list and wiki?
[19:52] <knome> the weekly/monthly meetings we're having will come handy
[19:53] <amjjawad> I guess it is not a high priority to setup a LP area for now. I think it is better to do that as a final step
[19:54] <amjjawad> but yes, at the end, both should be on the same team on LP
[19:54] <amjjawad> IMHO :)
[19:56] <amjjawad> balloons: +1 :)
[19:56] <knome> ultimately we only need separate LP teams if a certain team needs specific access rights in LP.
[19:56] <amjjawad> knome: +1
[19:57] <elfy> plnety of time for LP
[19:57] <knome> maybe people on -quality should join the bugsquad channel to see what they think and reassess after a week or so
[19:57] <knome> balloons, ^
[19:57] <amjjawad> knome: I guess most are there already
[19:58] <knome> i'm not.
[19:58] <amjjawad> knome: then join ;)
[19:58] <AlbertoSN> Teams are fusioning...
[19:59] <knome> balloons, remember to notice the CC.
[19:59] <knome> :)
[19:59] <AlbertoSN> ⚿
[20:00] <AlbertoSN> Good nite
[20:00] <amjjawad> good night AlbertoSN
[20:00] <j_f-f> thanks @all
[20:01] <balloons> ty everyone!
[20:05] <elfy> cheers balloons
[20:06] <knome> ta
[22:32] <topta> hi all


[18:30] <alo21> I found a bug report, which describes a bug that no more exists. How should I set the bug: as Invalid, or as Fix Released?
[18:30] <TheLordOfTime> which bug?
[18:30] <alo21> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-lens-files/+bug/1032697 I checked it by my self
[18:30] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1032697 in unity-lens-files "Dash shows invalid search results after deleting a file" [Low,Triaged]
[18:31] <TheLordOfTime> and this was fixed?
[18:31] <TheLordOfTime> actually
[18:31] <TheLordOfTime> neither of those bugs is specifically against Ubuntuy
[18:31] <TheLordOfTime> its changed upstream.
[18:31] <TheLordOfTime> so you should ask the team or people in charge of those projects
[18:32] <alo21> Ayatana project?
[18:32] <TheLordOfTime> you could start there
[18:33] <alo21> hmm... ok thanks
[19:23] <j9llocutus> Hi, versuche apport-collect auf einem Client hinter einem Proxy laufen zu lassen, bekomme aber keine Verbindung
[19:23] <j9llocutus> habe export http proxy und /etc/environment mit aquire http proxy versucht, aber ohne erfolg
[19:24] <j9llocutus> kann apport-* mit einem Proxy umgehen?
[19:24] <j9llocutus> wo muss man das konfigurieren


[00:30] <lifeless> fjlacoste: oh hai
[00:30] <lifeless> fjlacoste: if you want to catch up in the evening or whatever, just let me know
[00:30] <fjlacoste> lifeless: i think i'll pass today, sorry
[00:30] <lifeless> fjlacoste: is cool
[00:30] <lifeless> fjlacoste: hows the conf ?
[00:32] <fjlacoste> lifeless: pretty good
[01:03] <StevenK> wgrant: Can haz another look?
[01:09] <wgrant> StevenK: Done
[01:09]  * StevenK looks for "This is terrible."
[01:18] <StevenK> OMG, referencing a bug that *isn't* bug 933766.
[01:18] <_mup_> Bug #933766: Update bug to use information_visibility_policy <bad-commit-14986> <bugs> <disclosure> <qa-untestable> <Launchpad itself:In Progress by stevenk> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/933766 >
[01:34]  * wallyworld stabs thunderbird. using 3GB of memory and thrashing disk trying to get up to date with qastaging inbox. still waiting.....
[01:35] <StevenK> wallyworld: Using Thunderbird to read the staging inbox? Ha. Hahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHA
[01:36] <wallyworld> yeah, i know now it is a bad idea :-(
[01:36] <rick_h> lifeless: ping, if you have a sec can you peek at the MP for the email notice stuff. I've got two failing tests to fix, but shouldn't change much. https://code.launchpad.net/~rharding/launchpad/email_notice_959482
[01:36] <StevenK> wallyworld: Seriously, though, turn off the agressive caching, since Thunderbird loves to cache the entire message.
[01:36] <rick_h> lifeless: the gpg and oauth adjustments are in a follow up branch I'm still working on getting
[01:37] <wallyworld> StevenK: is there a better alternative like pine or something worth considering?
[01:37] <StevenK> Hahaha, pine.
[01:37] <rick_h> offlineimap + mutt ftw!
[01:37] <StevenK> Is your knowledge of MUAs like 10 years old?
[01:37] <wallyworld> never used those but perhaps i need to
[01:37] <rick_h> I'm a big mutt user
[01:37] <cjwatson> mutt's generally fine for large mailboxes but do enable its header cache.
[01:37] <rick_h> yea, definitely
[01:38] <rick_h> http://blog.mitechie.com/2011/11/20/an-updated-email-config-2-offlineimap-mutt-and-dovecot-ftw/
[01:38] <cjwatson> Exactly my combination
[01:38] <StevenK> wallyworld: I think the staging inbox howto thingy shows how to configure offlineimap
[01:39]  * StevenK tends to be evil, and just uses wgrant to look at the staging inbox for him ...
[01:39] <wallyworld> StevenK: yes, i think it does. i never figured it would be mandatory to use it :-)
[01:39] <rick_h> my license plate is 'cli4lif' :)
[01:39] <wallyworld> funny
[01:39] <StevenK> wallyworld: It depends if you have 48GiB of RAM available and 3 days to wait? :-P
[01:40] <wallyworld> StevenK: i only have 4GB :-(
[01:40] <StevenK> And a crappy i7 Atom that randomly reboots.
[01:41] <StevenK> But that's what you get for buying a laptop based on the fact that it has a numeric keypad. :-P
[01:41] <wallyworld> it hasn't done that the past couple of days, touch wood
[01:41] <wallyworld> i bought it because it has a decent screen resolution
[01:41] <wallyworld> 1600x900
[01:46] <StevenK> wallyworld: My X201 is 1280x800, but I spend my time working on a 24" 1080p LCD.
[01:47] <wallyworld> StevenK: my main monitor is a 23" display but i also like to have a decent laptop screen too
[01:47] <StevenK> Oh bugger, I put off voting in the DPL elections so long they elected zach without me.
[02:17] <wgrant> StevenK: That's Disclosure Supreme, Flawless, and Marvellous Plan to you.
[02:17] <StevenK> Haha
[02:17] <StevenK> Tempted to raise that on the call tomorrow. :-)
[02:23]  * StevenK stabs Banshee four or five times.
[02:24] <StevenK> I plug my mp3 player in, start Banshee, it spews 200 lines or so of Mono garbage tracebacks and then segfaults.
[02:25] <spm> "feature"
[02:25] <StevenK> And the Banshee devs complained when we switched the default away?
[02:25] <StevenK> There is a reason I use Quod Libet as my music player.
[02:26] <spm> exaile here. used to be a die hard amorak fanboi, but around a year or 3 ago they made me cry. so I gave up.
[02:27] <StevenK> I gave up on amorak when it caused my (at the time) dual Athlon to melt into a puddle.
[02:27] <spm> i think it was the crashing everytime I asked it to do something complex like "play this tune" that was the main kicker for me
[02:27] <StevenK> Haha
[02:28] <spm> much like how my previous smartphone would lock dead requiring a hard reset with complex tasks like receiving an SMS
[02:29]  * wgrant just uses Rhythmbox :)
[02:30] <StevenK> Rhythmbox started acting very strange for me last release so I went back to the loving Python embrace of Quod Libet.
[02:30] <spm> is that the current default? if Y, I'm sure I tried it, and gave up on it rather quickly
[02:31] <wgrant> I used Banshee while it was the default, since Rhythmbox was indeed pretty broken.
[02:31] <StevenK> I remember trying Exaile for a day (I think it was 0.22) and giving up in disgust, but I can't recall why.
[02:31] <lifeless> StevenK: just think, your vote would not have changed anything
[02:31] <wgrant> But switched back in early Precise.
[02:31] <StevenK> lifeless: Meh, thank you for making me feel SO much better.
[02:31] <spm> heh
[02:31] <lifeless> StevenK: I failed to vote too
[02:32]  * StevenK goes to buy lunch and probably drown.
[03:33]  * wgrant stabs GIST in the face
[03:33] <StevenK> wgrant: Oh?
[03:34] <wgrant> Everything goes fine on dogfood until I try to FTI
[03:34] <StevenK> I didn't drown, but it was a close run thing. Apparently, Sydney is going to get 140mm of rain over the next two days.
[03:34] <wgrant> Heh
[03:35] <wgrant> Ahaaa
[03:35] <wgrant> Once the index is hot, fti is fast
[03:43] <wgrant> StevenK: You probably have insane team memberships
[03:43] <wgrant> StevenK: How do https://bugs.dogfood.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=kernel and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=kernel compare for you?
[03:45] <lifeless> (Error ID: OOPS-71f5806d495ce2928a38ecae3e91b757)
[03:45] <lifeless> and
[03:45] <lifeless>     At least 47 queries/external actions issued in 2.00 seconds
[03:45] <wgrant> Erm
[03:45] <wgrant> 2s?
[03:45] <wgrant> Should be at least 6
[03:46] <wgrant> Oh, that's a prod oops
[03:46] <lifeless> 2s on dogfood
[03:46] <wgrant> Right, that makes more sense.
[03:46] <wgrant> So, success? :)
[03:47] <wgrant> (this early version of the feature flag has prejoining disabled, so there's a bit of death by a thousand queries still in play, so it will really be faster)
[03:48] <lifeless> wgrant: nice
[04:28] <StevenK> wgrant: I was lunching, do you still want me to check?
[04:29] <wgrant> StevenK: More data is always nice.
[04:30] <wgrant> Even though the data so far suggests that the Disclosure Supreme, Flawless, and Marvellous Plan lives up to its title.
[04:30] <StevenK> wgrant: Hah, so. Timeout on prod, and 29second on DF
[04:31] <wgrant> StevenK: What if you retry?
[04:31] <wgrant> The fti and most of the table had probably dropped out of DF's cache
[04:31] <wgrant> Given they're like 2GB all up, and DF has 4GB...
[04:31] <StevenK> wgrant: 9.01 seconds on prod and 2.76 seconds on DF.
[04:32] <wgrant> That's more like it.
[04:32] <StevenK> I thought 9.01 should have timed out.
[04:32] <wgrant> It must have ticked over 9 right after the timeout check.
[04:32] <wgrant> StevenK: What are the timings for the two BugTaskFlat queries?
[04:32] <wgrant> in the DF query log
[04:32] <StevenK> Sigh, mawson is all the way over there.
[04:32] <wgrant> No
[04:32]  * StevenK reaches for it.
[04:32] <wgrant> Click link at top of page
[04:33] <wgrant> "XX queries/external actions"
[04:33] <wgrant> it's a link
[04:33] <wgrant> expands query log
[04:33] <lifeless> only if you're logged in and in the lp dev group there
[04:33] <StevenK> 509ms and 1202ms.
[04:33] <wgrant> Which StevenK is
[04:33] <wgrant> Huh
[04:33] <wgrant> Slow
[04:33] <wgrant> k
[04:33] <StevenK> lifeless: Pft, I'm a duck on DF.
[04:34] <wgrant> Burn!
[04:34] <StevenK> Burn which bit?
[04:34] <wgrant> You
[04:34] <wgrant> You're a witch :)
[04:34] <StevenK> Really?
[04:35] <StevenK> wgrant: Looks like my team memberships and such are a bit more insane than lifeless'?
[04:36] <wgrant> Or lifeless may not have been logged in
[04:36] <wgrant> Although
[04:36] <wgrant> Yours should be faster...
[04:36] <lifeless> I wasn't logged in
[04:36] <wgrant> since you're a duck
[04:36] <wgrant> It will ship all the perm checks
[04:36] <wgrant> skip
[04:36] <wgrant> Sigh
[04:37] <wgrant> need more ram
[04:37] <wgrant> My desktop has 4x more than mawson :(
[04:37] <lifeless> hah, sso puts a spurious : after the fields in the what-fields-you-get confirmation form
[04:37] <wgrant> Yeah
[04:37] <wgrant> Has for ages
[04:37] <wgrant>  /ever
[04:38] <StevenK> wgrant: But your desktop was manufactured sometime this century. :-)
[04:38] <lifeless> wgrant: 143 queries/external actions issued in 11.12 seconds
[04:38] <lifeless> AJAX Log ↓
[04:38] <wgrant> Yeah, DF doesn't do so well with a cold cache
[04:38] <lifeless> 1895ms
[04:38] <lifeless> SQL-main-slave: SELECT * FROM ((SELECT Person.account
[04:38] <wgrant> I've just been browsing Launchpad's bugs, so Ubuntu will be long gone
[04:38] <wgrant> Heh
[04:38] <wgrant> So that's just listing your team administerships
[04:38] <lifeless> 2248ms
[04:38] <StevenK> I think mawson's disks have begun to fossilize
[04:38] <lifeless> SQL-main-slave: SELECT BugTaskFlat.bugtask FROM
[04:39] <wgrant> :(
[04:39] <lifeless> 4991ms
[04:39] <lifeless> SQL-main-slave: SELECT COUNT(*) FROM BugTaskFlat
[04:39] <lifeless> 143 queries/external actions issued in 5.14 seconds
[04:39] <lifeless> AJAX Log ↓
[04:39] <wgrant> I guess I should fix the last few tests failures and get this onto qas.
[04:40] <lifeless> lots of SQL-main-slave: SELECT TeamParticipation.id, TeamParticipation.person, TeamParticipation.team FROM TeamParticipation WHERE TeamParticipation.person = 2980965 AND TeamParticipation.team = 430914
[04:40] <lifeless> 1606ms
[04:40] <lifeless> SQL-main-slave: SELECT BugTaskFlat.bugtask
[04:40] <wgrant> Yeah, those aren't even my fault :/
[04:40] <lifeless> 1764ms
[04:40] <lifeless> SQL-main-slave: SELECT COUNT(*) FROM BugTaskFlat WHERE BugTaskFlat
[04:40] <lifeless> 60ms
[04:40] <lifeless> SQL-main-slave: WITH teams AS (SELECT team from TeamParticipation WHERE person=2)SELECT combinedbugsummary.distroseries
[04:40] <lifeless>  :)
[04:40] <wgrant> lifeless: I think those TP checks might be subscriptions
[04:41] <wgrant> Deciding whether you're subscribed or not
[04:41] <wgrant> Pretty hilarious way to go about it, which is why it's completely plausible.
[04:41] <lifeless> why would that page care ?
[04:47] <wgrant> lifeless: It has the new bug subscriptions stuff on it.
[04:47] <wgrant> Anything touched by that is cursed forever.
[04:48] <wgrant> To be 500ms slower than it would otherwise be.
[04:54] <StevenK> wallyworld: Can haz QA for r15100?
[04:54] <wallyworld> StevenK: still waiting for my qas inbox to finish syncing
[04:54]  * StevenK grumbles about having to feature flag the UI changes.
[04:57]  * wallyworld grumbles about yui tests in lxc core dumping :-(
[05:00] <wgrant> wallyworld: You've enabled X forwarding in SSH?
[06:20] <wgrant> Down to 92000 messages in the staging inbox...
[06:20] <wgrant> Nearly there
[06:39] <wallyworld> wgrant: i don't use ssh with the lxc setup is use, i just sudo lxc-start -n lpdev and get a login prompt directly
[06:42] <wgrant> wallyworld: Ah, that would do it.
[06:42] <wgrant> wallyworld: No X server
[06:43] <wgrant> wallyworld: Perhaps try xvfb-run
[06:43] <wallyworld> ah right. will do thanks.
[06:43] <wgrant> wallyworld: Did you make any progress on QAing poolie's size limit?
[06:43] <wallyworld> wgrant: *still* waiting for fucking qas inbox to download everything
[06:43] <wgrant> wallyworld: I just deleted 430000 mails from it
[06:43] <wgrant> You might want to restart thunderbird
[06:43] <wgrant> It's got like 4000 now.
[06:44] <wallyworld> already have. i can delete about 50000 at once. it's been swapping all day :-(
[06:44] <wgrant> I did 100000 at a time. Just had to click Continue about 100 times.
[06:44] <wgrant> Make sure you disable the message pane when doing bulk operations.
[06:45] <wgrant> Otherwise it will try to render a list of threads.
[06:45] <wallyworld> that would help
[06:45] <wallyworld> i've lost count of the number of "script has stopped" dialogs i've clicked on
[06:46] <wallyworld> plus when the disk thrashes, the desktop stops accepting mouse clicks :-( not sure whether to blame unity or X or compiz
[06:46] <wgrant> Sounds like you're swapping heavily :)
[06:46] <wgrant> Need moar rams
[06:47] <wallyworld> yeah. normally get by fine with what i have
[06:47] <wgrant> 4GiB?
[06:47] <wallyworld> yep
[07:18] <wallyworld> wgrant: i see you sent a large email to qas.
[07:18] <wallyworld> my qas inbox finally cuaght up
[07:18] <StevenK> It only took all day.
[07:18] <StevenK> Is your laptop still thrashing?
[07:18] <wallyworld> yeah :-(
[07:18] <wallyworld> no
[07:18] <wallyworld> just finished
[07:19] <wallyworld> after 1000000 thunderbird restarts and clicking on Continue dialogs
[07:20] <StevenK> Maybe you'll use offlineimap next time. :-P
[07:21] <lifeless> I've just purged it
[07:21] <lifeless> 42K messages, 0 need for them
[07:21] <wallyworld> StevenK: well, i didn't think i needed to :-)
[07:21] <lifeless> you don't
[07:21] <lifeless> if folk delete as they qa
[07:21] <wallyworld> too bad we don't clear qas inbox more often
[07:21] <StevenK> lifeless: You tell funny jokes.
[07:22] <lifeless> StevenK: apparently so
[07:22] <wallyworld> why don't we automatically purge once every couple of days?
[07:22] <wgrant> lifeless: Did you just delete *everything*?
[07:22] <StevenK> lifeless: Suprised you didn't make a ruling in terms of non-LP members doing QA.
[07:22] <wgrant> I'd already deleted most of them.
[07:22] <lifeless> noone has gotten theactivation energy up to do it
[07:22] <wgrant> And I think you nuked my test mail :(
[07:22] <wallyworld> wgrant: i read it, looked ok
[07:22] <lifeless> wgrant: there were 42K messages there, I wasn't selective
[07:23] <wgrant> wallyworld: Ah, thanks.
[07:23] <wallyworld> wgrant: i marked the bug as qaok
[07:23] <wgrant> lifeless: I usually leave everything from the last 24 hours
[07:23] <wgrant> wallyworld: Even better.
[07:27] <wgrant> wallyworld: I get "NotFound: Object: None, name: u'index.html'"
[07:27] <wgrant> wallyworld: Nothing about a default view
[07:28] <wallyworld> wgrant: i was going by the string handed to the exception constructor in the base class. but anyway, it still refers to index.html which implies a page is expected
[07:28] <wgrant> wallyworld: That's correct.
[07:28] <wgrant> When browsing to an object in a browser, it will try to render the default view.
[07:28] <wgrant> The default view is index.html unless overriden.
[07:28] <wgrant> This is normal.
[07:29] <wgrant> Eg https://launchpad.net/package-sets
[07:29] <wgrant> Same for any object that doesn't have views
[07:29] <wallyworld> in this case i don't think it is because i see it as a case on an incomplete url
[07:29] <wallyworld> like lp/net/launchpa
[07:29] <wallyworld> typo
[07:29] <wallyworld> . not /
[07:29] <wgrant> Structurally it is a complete URL.
[07:30] <wgrant> Overriding as you've done is of minimal utility and breaks the convention around the rest of the codebase and every other ZTK app.
[07:30] <wallyworld> oh alright. not worth arguing about. i'll change it
[07:31] <wgrant> To a user the difference is 0
[07:31] <wgrant> They don't see the traceback.
[07:34] <wgrant> Hah
[07:34] <wgrant> I'm going to accidentally fix the bug where milestones are duplicated on the advanced search page.
[07:34] <wgrant> How convenient.
[07:55] <lifeless> oh noes
[07:55] <lifeless> we can't have less bugs
[07:55] <lifeless> bugs are currency
[07:55] <StevenK> You would say that.
[07:56] <lifeless> YHBT HAND HTH
[07:57] <bigjools>
[07:58] <bigjools> bwaha
[07:58] <czajkowski> I need a dictionary for lifeless
[07:58] <bigjools> it's funny because that's what StevenK trots out
[08:02] <lifeless> czajkowski: urban dict probably has them all
[08:02] <lifeless> czajkowski: or perhaps the new new hackers dict
[08:03] <czajkowski> lifeless: would you mind haveing a look at juju bug against lp please. https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/983530
[08:03] <_mup_> Bug #983530: "charms" needs branch name consistency <juju:Invalid> <Launchpad itself:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/983530 >
[08:03] <czajkowski> lifeless: a swift google was helpful
[08:03] <lifeless> SpamapS: hey ^
[08:03] <czajkowski> my brain doesnt seem to want to fucntion at this hour of the morning
[08:03] <lifeless> SpamapS: what is the problem ?
[08:03] <wgrant> lifeless: See backscroll
[08:03] <adeuring> good morning
[08:04] <wgrant> From about 8 hours ago
[08:24] <SpamapS> lifeless: in charms, we often use 'bzr push lp:charms/foo' to create new charms.
[08:25] <SpamapS> lifeless: this creates lp:~yourname/charms/series/foo/trunk
[08:25] <SpamapS> lifeless: however, when branch-distro is run to copy forward and do the stacking jitterbug, it uses lp:~yourname/charms/series/foo/series
[08:26] <SpamapS> lifeless: the charm store code specifically targets 'trunk' because we need users to be able to have a way to say "this is my personal published version of foo"
[08:26] <lifeless> wait, what ?
[08:26] <SpamapS> lifeless: so we can't really use branch metadata becaus we can't have two foo's for any one user
[08:27] <SpamapS> or rather we can't have two foo's for any one user+series
[08:27] <lifeless> how does that impact the blessed charms ?
[08:28] <SpamapS> lifeless: the charmstore maps lp:~auser/charms/precise/foo/trunk to 'juju deploy cs:~auser/precise/foo'
[08:28] <SpamapS> lifeless: the blessed charms do have a 1:1 series<->charmname mapping, so I did suggest that we should just use that to workaround this. But it stands to reason that branch-distro should probably agree with push-to-create
[08:29] <lifeless> SpamapS: are they able to say cs:~auser/precise/foo/trunk, if they want to ?
[08:29] <SpamapS> lifeless: no
[08:29] <SpamapS> lifeless: though I believe that is desired
[08:29] <SpamapS> its not part of the store *now*
[08:30] <lifeless> so for users, this is irrelevant, because its only the blessed charms that are branched
[08:30] <SpamapS> right
[08:30] <lifeless> the blessed charms should be listed as the development focus branch, in LP's package metadata
[08:31] <lifeless> so they shouldn't be affected either
[08:31] <lifeless> unless the charm store isn't using that pointer (which it should)
[08:31] <SpamapS> it is to map lp:charms/foo -> cs:foo
[08:31] <SpamapS> (which is the default, so 'juju deploy foo'
[08:32] <SpamapS> lifeless: the troubling part is the inconsistency
[08:32] <SpamapS> lifeless: I know we can mold the charm store loader to just load the dev focus branches as blessed regardless of their name. but they'll still have weird names
[08:33] <SpamapS> lifeless: also when copying forward, one thing that happened was any charms that were manually ported forward to precise were named 'trunk', and so were not detected as already existing.
[08:35] <wallyworld> wgrant: can haz +1 on that review?
[08:45] <wgrant> wallyworld: Ah, sure. Was just waiting for the diff to update, then forgot.
[08:58] <wallyworld> wgrant: np. thanks. i am trying to make the next bb run :-)
[09:37] <StevenK> cjwatson: It matters little, but spot the duplication in your most recent landing:
[09:37] <StevenK> 120	+ distro = bpph.distroseries.distribution
[09:37] <StevenK> 121	+ script = self.makeScript(bpph.distroseries.distribution)
[09:45] <cjwatson> StevenK: reasonable point; I was copying from test_getDirtySuites_returns_suite_with_pending_publication and test_getDirtySuites_ignores_suites_without_pending_publications and didn't notice
[09:46] <cjwatson> doesn't seem worth another landing to fix though, really?
[11:00] <lifeless> SpamapS: ok, so I think that the bug may need some fine tunuing ;)
[11:00] <lifeless> gnight
[11:09] <StevenK> cjwatson: Nah. Like I said, it matters very little. If you care, you can do a drive-by in your next branch. Or you don't care, either is fine.
[11:25] <StevenK> czajkowski: :-(
[11:25] <czajkowski> StevenK: now what have I done.
[11:25] <StevenK> czajkowski: Your G+ reply, you bad person.
[11:26] <czajkowski> StevenK: hi we've clearly never met if you're only realising that now :)
[11:26] <czajkowski> I blame the blessed charms for todays corruption!
[11:26] <StevenK> Hah
[11:27] <StevenK> Which makes it SpamapS fault.
[11:27] <StevenK> And the universe makes sense again.
[13:08] <dpm> hi all, could someone help me with an issue with translations? We've got the calligra source package in Ubuntu and its translations do not seem to get imported. Here are the details:
[13:08] <dpm> The imports queue is empty save for some manual uploads:
[13:08] <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/calligra/+imports
[13:09] <dpm> The po files were uploaded separately with the calligra-l10n package:
[13:10] <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/calligra-l10n/+imports
[13:11] <dpm> It's a KDE translation, which makes it a bit special and means the PO files will not be imported into any calligra-l10n template, but rather on the corresponding template in the calligra source packad
[13:11] <dpm> *package
[13:12] <dpm> So my question is whether someone could help me determine whether the PO files will end up in the right package or whether I should start to worry
[13:13] <dpm> I know there is a check somewhere in the LP code to determine if an upload corresponds to a KDE package and then takes care of all this, but I'm not familiar with the code other than knowing that this function exists
[13:13] <dpm> I just want to ensure the calligra translations end up in the right place and can be shipped in the language packs
[13:32] <adeuring> abentley: standup?
[13:55] <rick_h> dpm: hmmm, so there are imports on that l10n going back to Jan it looks like, 4k of them?
[13:56] <rick_h> jtv: ping, I'm told you might be a translations master and know something about how this works?
[13:58] <dpm> rick_h, yeah (not sure about the translations part, though :). Back then the calligra package did not have any templates, so the translations were uploaded but had nowhere to go, as PO files only get imported if there is a corresponding template. Last week the templates were created and a new upload was made, which should in theory solve the issue. The way LP works, the 4k old translations will remain there, I believe, as there is no template associate
[13:58] <dpm> d with them.
[13:59] <rick_h> dpm: ok, so there were some imports done after the 4/11 imports that didn't have a template?
[14:02] <dpm> rick_h, the templates were created last week (on the 10th or 12th, I think). All of the uploaded PO files before that date will remain in Needs Review (forever, I believe), whereas the PO files uploaded after should in theory get associated with a template and should be imported. And the "should get imported" part is what I'm trying to figure out :)
[14:04] <rick_h> dpm: ok, I've ping'd jtv, I'm not sure atm how the imports work like this and asking in our stand up didn't get me much further. Let's see if he gets back to us and if not I'll try to find more help/guidance.
[14:06] <dpm> rick_h, ok, thanks for your help. jtv is on his day off, I think
[14:12] <gary_poster> jml, are you still hoping to merge your three testtools branches today?  We're already making our own rollup branch, but we'd still love to have an official merge, let alone an official release.
[14:13] <gary_poster> We'll need to do similar dances for testrepository (we have one MP with no reply, with another on its way) and subunit (we need a release of the trunk in order to get some tag support changes that Robert added recently).
[14:16] <jml> gary_poster: yes. about to do so now.
[14:16] <jml> gary_poster: sorry about the muck-around
[14:16] <gary_poster> awesome thanks jml.
[14:16] <jml> gary_poster: I'm going to apply lifeless's suggestion from the yellow testr review
[14:16] <jml> gary_poster: and parametrize wrap_result
[14:16] <gary_poster> cool jml, thanks
[14:16] <gary_poster> benji ^^
[14:17] <jml> gary_poster: that will cause a conflict for you when you merge, but hopefully nothing too tough
[14:17] <jml> fwiw, my excuse is that I moved house yesterday (taking the day off) and still don't have home internet today.
[14:18] <gary_poster> jml, ugh!  moving house is never easy, and sometimes difficult for months or years later. :-) thank you very much for getting this through
[14:25] <jml> having fast Internet changes *everything*
[14:27] <gary_poster> :-)
[14:36] <jml> gary_poster, benji: tagger, tsfr-fixup and wrap-result-in-concurrent-suite all merged & pushed (lp:testtools r253). Let me know if there are problems.
[14:36] <gary_poster> thank you very much jml
[15:02] <jtv> rick_h: sorry, I'm not doing any more work tonight!
[15:02] <salgado> jamestunnicliffe, you'll need to ask one of the LP tech leads to approve a feature flag change to enable the view to members of Linaro
[15:03] <salgado> the feature flag will be something like "team:linaro registry.upcoming_work_view.enabled 1" (need to check the correct syntax/order)
[15:04] <sinzui> jcsackett, how goes the bug subscriber branch?
[15:06] <salgado> sinzui, maybe you can approve that feature flag (^) change?
[15:11] <jcsackett> sinzui: i spent some time reading through the whole of the various subscription code last night, so i've been able to iron out those inconsistencies and am making progress.
[15:12] <jcsackett> there are some tests regarding the DB triggers i haven't gotten to looking at yet--there's a very good chance i'll be pinging you when i hit those. i expect they're going to be complicated.
[15:12] <sinzui> salgado, sure, is the entry on the osa page?
[15:12] <salgado> sinzui, not yet. should I add it?
[15:12] <jcsackett> sinzui: would've pinged you earlier, but i was excited once i had things sorted out and just sort lost myself in fixing things.
[15:13] <sinzui> jcsackett, okay, please ping me to talk if you are getting frustrated. I can listen and sympathise, and sometimes help fix
[15:14] <jcsackett> sinzui: will do, and thanks. :-)
[15:14] <sinzui> salgado, add it the the ff section on https://wiki.canonical.com/InformationInfrastructure/OSA/LaunchpadProductionStatus
[15:14] <sinzui> you can add me as the approver now since I agree that linaro needs to see the feature work
[15:15] <salgado> jamestunnicliffe, so, that (^) is what needs to be done, but the wiki page is internal-only so the next time you need to do it you'll just need to ask whoever approves the feature flag to add it to the wiki page as well
[15:15] <salgado> thanks sinzui!
[15:16] <jamestunnicliffe> thanks salgado!
[15:17] <jamestunnicliffe> (and sinzui)
[15:23] <czajkowski> sinzui: oh wise one, should a bugs description be editabled after a fix released so in theory it's closed be allowed to happen ?
[15:23] <jml> bac: hi
[15:24] <jml> bac: I've had a bit of a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~bac/testrepository/bug-949950/+merge/102317. Do you want to discuss it here, or would you rather a put some notes on the MP?
[15:24] <bac> hi jml
[15:24] <bac> jml: here is fine, as long as it is summarized on the MP
[15:24] <sinzui> czajkowski, yes it should be editable so that confusing text is removed
[15:24] <jml> bac: can do.
[15:25] <jml> bac: I downloaded it and gave it a try. It looks like you'll only get test failures and start & end timestamps in the subunit stream.
[15:26] <bac> jml: oh, really
[15:26] <jml> bac: yeah
[15:26] <bac> that isn't great
[15:27] <jml> bac: I didn't think it was what you wanted.
[15:27] <bac> jml: any thoughts on why that happens?
[15:27] <jml> bac: it's not very obvious, but 'run' delegates to 'load'
[15:28] <jml> bac: and 'load' uses the make_result() that your patch changes
[15:28] <jml> to make something called 'output_result', which is the result responsible for UI output (which makes sense, I hope)
[15:28] <bac> yes
[15:29] <jml> immediately below that, is this:
[15:29] <jml>         filtered = TestResultFilter(output_result, filter_skip=False)
[15:29] <jml> and it's that 'filtered' result that gets used from then on
[15:29] <jml> so output_result never even gets the events for successful tests
[15:29] <jml> (sorry for dragging this out, I'm figuring it out as I go along)
[15:30] <bac> jml, np
[15:31] <jml> I think the right thing to do is to push that TestResultFilter call down into the UI make_result
[15:31] <jml> because, really, choosing which results to display is a UI decision.
[15:32] <bac> jml: makes sense
[15:32] <jml> bac: there'll probably be a bunch of annoying test fallout from that.
[15:32] <jml> bac: sorry.
[15:32] <bac> jml: and you're suggesting not applying the filter when we select --subunit?
[15:32] <jml> bac: uhh, yes, I think so.
[15:32] <jml> umm sort of
[15:33] <jml> bac: there's a part of me that thinks there should be another option that controls whether only failures are shown vs full results
[15:33] <jml> bac: and that the default should stay as is regardless of whether the output is the pretty text output or a subunit stream.
[15:34] <czajkowski> sinzui: even after the bug has been fixed released?  surely editing the description then is confusing
[15:35] <bac> jml: so grow a '--full-results' (modulo spelling).  would that be only for the run command?
[15:35] <czajkowski> sinzui: an example is https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/272826  which was edited today
[15:35] <_mup_> Bug #272826: "Ubuntero" inappropriate for female contributors <lp-registry> <Launchpad itself:Fix Released by barry> <Ubuntu Website:Fix Released by newz> <Ubuntu:Fix Released by communitycouncil> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/272826 >
[15:35] <jml> bac: run & load yes.
[15:36] <bac> jml: ok.  so if you'll disapprove that MP i'll look at doing that this afternoon
[15:36] <jml> bac: the other point of my feedback was going to be that load should have the option too. I think that's pretty trivial to code up.
[15:36] <jml> bac: will do that, and put my notes there now.
[15:36] <bac> jml: cool, thanks
[15:36] <jml> bac: thank you!
[15:37] <sinzui> czajkowski, it is not a bug. Bug descriptions often need to be updated to distinguish past behaviours from modern ones, or provide proper urls, tests, or work arounds so that users do not report a new bug or reopen the existing one
[15:39] <czajkowski> sinzui: I suppose if it were called a bug summary it wouldb't be as bad, I guess calling it a descrption is just rather misleading in this case.
[15:39] <sinzui> czajkowski, that is different issue. The bug title is not a title either
[15:40] <czajkowski> indeed
[16:09] <maxb> Is there any known breakage with package copies at the moment? I'm trying to copy reusing binaries from natty to oneiric within a single PPA, and I'm getting a spurious binary conflict
[16:13] <czajkowski> maxb: there was lp servers rebooted there at 16:00 UTC
[16:13] <czajkowski> for about 10 mins
[16:13] <maxb> I'm getting a specific logic error, rather than a downtime-related issue
[16:24] <rick_h> abentley: ping do you have time for a quick review? https://code.launchpad.net/~rharding/launchpad/email_notice_extras_959482/+merge/102341
[16:24] <rick_h> abentley: some drive by linting at the top makes it look bigger than it is
[16:38] <jml> Can someone please land https://code.launchpad.net/~jml/launchpad/expose-commercial-on-create-ppa/+merge/101907
[16:38] <rick_h> jml: sure thing, will pull that down
[16:39] <jml> rick_h: thank you
[16:51] <rick_h> jml: onto ec2 ok
[16:51] <jml> rick_h: \o/
[17:24] <abentley> rick_h: Sorry, was lunching.
[17:25] <rick_h> abentley: np, no hury
[17:26] <abentley> rick_h: LOC rationale?
[17:27] <rick_h> abentley: sorry, it's been ok'd in the dep branch by lifeless as small hit to fix security issue
[17:29] <abentley> rick_h: r=me
[17:29] <rick_h> abentley: ty
[18:24] <sinzui> jcsackett, r=me
[18:42] <jcsackett> sinzui: thanks.
[19:25] <dobey> can i beg someone to make a +downlaod page work for each series, and not have only the generic one for a project?
[19:44] <sinzui> dobey, We don't have any requirements for what +download should do anymore. It is truly fucked. I will not make anymore changes until someone provides the use case for it. It was once about packagers...and it certainly is not now
[19:46] <sinzui> dobey, Why does a series need +downloads?
[19:46] <dobey> sinzui: for packagers :)
[19:47] <sinzui> dobey, shouldn't the series page show the current release tarball then?
[19:47] <sinzui> does it need to show anything more?
[19:47] <dobey> i suppose it could just be on the series page if uscan can handle that
[19:48] <sinzui> ah
[19:48] <dobey> http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone-storage-protocol/+download .*/ubuntuone-storage-protocol-([0-9.]+)\.tar\.gz
[19:48] <dobey> that's what is in debian/watch for example
[19:48] <sinzui> I already reported a bug specifically for that situation, but some how it became unimporant and I stopped trying to please everyone
[19:48] <dobey> but it wants to grab 3.0.0 which is for precise, even though i'm doing an SRU for oneiric, for example :)
[19:49] <sinzui> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/231797
[19:49] <_mup_> Bug #231797: no sensible way to use debian/watch files with launchpad hosted tarballs (no simple url-and-link list of all downloads) <lp-registry> <packaging> <releases> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> <devscripts (Ubuntu):Invalid> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/231797 >
[19:50] <dobey> being able to specify the series would be brilliant, but there's no way to do that right now
[19:51] <dobey> you can specify a link to a specific milestone, which isn't the same
[19:51] <sinzui> I think we just want a permalink that is obvious from the url structure to support it. It is only for debian/watch case, so no one can screw it up again
[19:51] <dobey> or can i use the series page perhaps?
[19:52] <dobey> i guess i should try that
[19:52] <sinzui> dobey, https://launchpad.net/gdp/0.5.x shows the current release
[19:52] <sinzui> eg a real url with a tarball in it
[19:53] <dobey> right
[19:53] <sinzui> but I personally would not trust it since it is not designed for uscan
[19:53] <dobey> and +download is?
[19:54] <dobey> it has the exact same links on it, but it's paginated and has everything ever released
[19:55] <sinzui> +downloads is a semi0orderd list of all releases from all series. It is not clear who needs it since obsolete series are listed and it seams to encourage end-users to download and compile lots of tarballs
[19:55] <sinzui> The pagination was added to support some odd case were someone want to get old data, possibly because someone uploaded a .exe
[19:57] <sinzui> Once end-users were using that page and it was paginated to do fuck-knows-what, the people who needed it most were cut out. The whole mess it the result of a handful of well-meaning developers adding features without really verifying why if they accomplished something meaningful
[19:58] <lifeless> wouldn't it be nice if we could test for that
[19:59] <sinzui> dobey, do not trust anything in a "downloads" portlet it shows the latest uploaded thing, not the tarball, and not the actual version...again, there is not clear use-case for it. I think the intent was to encourage end-users to learn how gcc works
[19:59] <lifeless> sinzui: how are things; is there anything you want to catch up on - its been a few weeks since we last spoke
[20:00] <dobey> sinzui: well it it shows the latest uploaded thing for the series. i presume i can halfway trust it if i control what gets uploaded and when :)
[20:00] <sinzui> lifeless, we are not facing any technical issues, we are just struggling to to step on each other to get the UI ready for beta
[20:01] <dobey> sinzui: so probably safe enough to use for packages for projects i maintain? or should we get some more reasonable thing set up like a +download page for series?
[20:02] <sinzui> dobey, you can trust it if you trust the maintain who uploads. The portlet is correct for my work because I really do want packagers to the right thing..but I have the advantage oh having read the code and bug reports. I am still bitter as you can tell
[20:02] <dobey> heh
[20:03] <sinzui> I propose something special and testible for bots so that it is clear the feature is not to address someone's feelings...bot just need the correct data and nothing more
[20:04] <dobey> sure. sounds good
[20:10] <lifeless> sinzui: ok cool
[20:41] <lifeless> wgrant: you were asking about job clearing on restores...
[20:41] <lifeless> wgrant: I suspect we don't, systematically - [STAGING] Cron <launchpad@gandwana> $LP_PY /srv/staging.launchpad.net/staging/launchpad/cronscripts/process-job-source.py IPlainPackageCopyJobSource -q --log-file=INFO:/srv/staging.launchpad.net/staging-logs/process-job-source.IPlainPackageCopyJobSource.log
[20:41] <lifeless> 2012-04-17 20:39:30 ERROR   Unhandled exception
[20:41] <lifeless>  -> http://staging.launchpadlibrarian.net/99588237/gYMKrWK5lzGeNC4Db0iVcuSdQWW.txt (ERROR:  No such user
[20:41] <lifeless> )
[21:59] <wgrant> lifeless: Was I?
[22:07] <lifeless> wgrant: s/asking/speculating/ yesterday
[22:08] <[reed]> hey, I'm not sure where exactly I should be filing this... https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/984415
[22:08] <_mup_> Bug #984415: Launchpad bugzilla integration causes Bugzilla-side warnings <Launchpad itself:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/984415 >
[22:08] <[reed]> is that the right place?
[22:09] <lifeless> thats fine yes.
[22:09] <lifeless> whats happening ?
[22:29] <[reed]> lifeless: getting errors on Bugzilla's side every 10 min. when launchpad hits it :)
[22:29] <[reed]> trying to track down what's causing them
[23:32] <wgrant> rick_h: Did you get a text review of your new email template this time? Also, "security_field_changed" isn't a valid method name.
[23:33] <wgrant> There are also various text issues in the notification strings in the code.
[23:53] <lifeless> wgrant: whats invalida bout it ?
[23:53] <lifeless> wgrant: being pep8?
[23:54] <wgrant> lifeless: Yes
[23:54] <wgrant> That bit of PEP 8 illegal in Launchpad.
[23:54] <wgrant> +is
[23:56] <lifeless> ahh well, life is too short
[23:56] <lifeless> I wrote that method