[00:17] <PwrKroll> so who liked the first day?
[00:25] <greg-g> I missed most of it
[00:25] <popey> greg-g: it's all logged
[00:25] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[00:26] <greg-g> popey: I have it all logged locally too :)
[00:26] <popey> :)
[00:26] <greg-g> but that is nice and split up by session
[00:26] <greg-g> popey: were you here all day?
[00:26] <savvas> oh yeah
[00:26] <savvas> :p
[00:27] <greg-g> hardcore
[00:27] <savvas> nothing some caffeine wouldn't fix hehe
[00:27] <savvas> although it's a drug and as a future physician I shouldn't recommend it..
[00:28] <savvas> but heck.. it helps me stay up!
[00:28] <greg-g> the most caffeine addicted people I know are docs
[00:28] <greg-g> but, that isn't to say all docs are caffeine addicted
[00:29] <savvas> well it doesn't get to me that easily
[00:30] <savvas> I don't drink coffee a lot, but I had two cups for the previous exam
[00:30] <savvas> I managed to stay extra 2 hours up, then *puff* :p
[00:30] <greg-g> savvas: should we move this chat over to ubuntu-classroom-chat?
[00:30] <greg-g> :)
[00:30] <savvas> oops
[00:35] <DShepherd> should i assume that the transcripts for today sessions are not up as yet?
[00:35] <vas> yes
[00:35] <DShepherd> vas, oh ok
[00:36] <vas> what time is the next class
[00:36] <vas> ?
[00:36] <nalioth> vas: see /topic
[00:36] <popey> DShepherd: they are up
[00:36] <vas> yes but utc in greece
[00:36] <vas> ?
[00:36] <DShepherd> popey, you sure?
[00:36] <popey> yes, I put them up
[00:36] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[00:36] <DShepherd> ok
[00:36] <popey> click the links
[00:37] <vas> thanks
[00:37] <vas> what time is in utc now?
[00:38] <DShepherd> oh. i was checking the wrong link..
[00:38] <popey> 11:37pm vas
[00:38] <popey> ish
[00:38] <vas> thnak you
[00:38] <popey> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
[00:38] <vas> in greece is 2:38 in th morning
[00:38] <DShepherd> popey, thanks for the link. hey your the one who does the screenscasts?
[00:38] <vas> :)
[00:38] <popey> i am one of them yes DShepherd
[00:39] <DShepherd> popey, oh. well..
[00:39] <DShepherd> GREAT WORK MAN!!!
[00:39] <popey> thanks!
[00:39] <DShepherd> popey, tell your theme to keep it up
[00:39] <popey> :)
[00:39] <DShepherd> hehe
[00:39] <vas> what kind of knowledge i should have to attend the class?
[00:39] <DShepherd> team*
[00:39] <vas> i need to prepare
[00:43] <vas> good  night guys see you tomorrow
[00:43] <vas> in the class
[01:40] <AcBush> Can anyone in here help me? I have centos, but im just trying to install a dang torrent program....im a linux newb and cannot figure it out for the life of me
[01:41] <nalioth> AcBush: apt-get install azureus
[01:42] <AcBush> bash: apt-get: command not found
[01:42] <LinuxJuggalo> nalioth: centos dont have apt-get, AcBush: yum install azureus
[01:42] <nalioth> AcBush: why are you asking Centos questions in an #ubuntu channel?
[01:42] <nalioth> why are you not in #centos ?
[01:43] <AcBush> I have no idea, but centos says I was banned? I have no idea why....and you guys are much more helpful.
[01:43] <AcBush> I just wanna get azureus, so I can get vista back on my desktop....and then I can install ubuntu on my laptop
[01:43] <nalioth> i have no idea what Centos even is based on
[01:44] <LinuxJuggalo> nalioth: CentOS is based on RHEL
[01:44] <AcBush> LinuxJuggalo, it didnt a bunch of updating and stuff....then it said
[01:44] <AcBush> No Match for argument: azureus
[01:44] <AcBush> Nothing to do
[01:44] <AcBush> [root@localhost ~]#
[01:44] <AcBush> Btw, I appreciate it...much
[01:44] <LinuxJuggalo> AcBush maybe its not in the default repositories, try looking in universe
[01:44] <nalioth> AcBush: join #fedora or #redhat for better help
[01:47] <AcBush> :(
[01:47] <AcBush> I just need to install a torrent program....Im pulling my hair out....
[01:49] <alfermp> Hello, i need a littel help with my treo 750. How can i sync my treo with my ubuntu gutsy
[01:50] <chris_mcnamara>  /quit
[01:51] <LinuxJuggalo> AcBush: you can also just search for the azureus rpm, then run from root: rpm -ivh filename.rpm
[01:52] <AcBush> well, i did yum search torrent...and it said reading repositorty metadata in from local files
[01:52] <AcBush> then it said
[01:52] <AcBush> BitTorrent.noarch 3.9.1-1 installed
[01:52] <AcBush> Does that mean bittorent is installed? If so, how in the hell do I run it?
[01:53] <LinuxJuggalo> cd to the app directory and execute it
[01:54] <nalioth> LinuxJuggalo: it's not that simple
[01:54] <AcBush> And to execute it?
[01:54] <nalioth> AcBush: open a termninal and type "btdownloadgui" <press enter key>
[01:55] <AcBush> Command Not Found :(
[01:55] <nalioth> then i have no clue at all
[01:55] <nalioth> perhaps #bittorrent might be of help
[01:55] <nalioth> or ##linux
[01:58] <AcBush> I've been trying to install a program for over 2 hours.
[01:58] <AcBush> and still have no idea what im doing.
[02:52] <nealmcb> desertc: have you seen the mootbot?
[02:52] <nealmcb> MootBot: help
[02:56] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
[04:08] <SOUL_ASSASSIN> Hi...!!
[04:09] <SOUL_ASSASSIN> is anybody familiar with bcm43xx-fwcutter?
[08:46] <juan-arg> alguno habla español?
[08:47] <dgjones> !es
[08:47] <ubotu> Si busca ayuda en Español por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, allí obtendrá mas ayuda.
[09:03] <juan-arg> no no busco ayuda solo queria saber si algunoi hablaba en español
[13:48] <seer-as-shubhu> can anyone tell what is todays session about newbie to ubuntu-classroom
[13:50] <gnomefreak> seer-as-shubhu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[13:50] <stdin> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the schedule
[13:51] <gnomefreak> seer-as-shubhu: if in doubt type /topic
[13:51] <gnomefreak> good morning dholbach
[13:51] <dholbach> hiya gnomefreak
[14:35] <DrDabbles> Okay, so, giving irssi a shot. I just wish something as seemingly powerful as this existed in the GUI space. Though, I may just have to learn the Xchat-gnome project and work on improving it. :-P
[14:42] <axisys> Index Preference under Email tab thunderbird is grayed out.. how do I enable it?
[14:45] <PriceChild> !support | DrDabbles axisys
[14:45] <ubotu> DrDabbles axisys: the official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
[14:46] <DrDabbles> PriceChild: I mistakenly typed in the wrong channel. Not asking for support. Thanks.
[14:54] <daimon> when is the next session?
[14:54] <PriceChild> daimon, /topic
[14:54] <zenmester> 16
[14:54] <zenmester> 15 utc
[14:55] <Sophomore> which is to say, roughly an hour
[14:55] <Sophomore> from now
[14:55] <daimon> Thanks, sorry to bother.
[15:04] <zenmester> Sophomore: I understood that UTC is the same as GMT  that would make it now.
[15:05] <kelsin> IRC
[15:07] <kelsin> daylight savings time I think is screwing with my idea too, would make me -4 instead of -5 gmt, hence my miss-estimate of the time :)
[15:09] <daimon> while we wait, does anyone here have metasploit running on 7.10?
[15:09] <tazz> daimon: i do
[15:10] <daimon> do you happen to be using the db_postgres plugin?
[15:10] <tazz> nope
[15:10] <daimon> are you using any of the db plugins?
[15:11] <tazz> daimon: why do you ask?
[15:11] <daimon> I've got msfconsole working fine, and I've got postgres up and running on my box, but any time I try using something like db_create or db_nmap I get errors
[15:12] <tazz> daimon: i dont think its perfect.
[15:12] <daimon> noticed that
[15:13] <daimon> I can get db_autopwn working on BT2 and a slackware install, but for some reason it isn't playing nice with ubuntu
[15:19] <tazz> daimon: i just loaded db_postgres and i think we are going ot big time here, mind joining #metasploit?
[15:46] <jamesfoster> @time utc
[15:46] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 23 2007, 14:46:38 - Next meeting: Server Team in 13 minutes
[15:46] <GnuGustavo> hi everyone
[15:48] <jono> I don't know about everyone else, but I am excited to see the rockstar known as Daniel 'dholbach' Holbach :)
[15:48] <popey> heh
[15:48] <_MMA_> lol
[15:48] <DrDabbles> jono: Actually, I'm excited for that but also excited to grab a brew or two with you on Friday
[15:48] <jono> DrDabbles: bring it on!
[15:48] <adamsweet> jono: and I thought you were going to say me
[15:49] <rrittenhouse> (?) Next meeting: Server Team in 13 minutes
[15:49] <jono> adamsweet: unlikely, my short, spiky friend
[15:49] <DrDabbles> Jono: My girlfriend is excited to meet you as well. Which has me worried. :/
[15:49] <jono> DrDabbles: bow chicka waa waa!
[15:49] <dholbach> heya :-)
[15:49] <dholbach> rrittenhouse: that's for #ubuntu-meeting :)
[15:49] <soren> rrittenhouse: No, the server team meeting is in ...
[15:49] <rrittenhouse> ooooh ;)
[15:49] <tazz> jono, hi, i read your blog @ ubuntu
[15:49] <soren> yes, that dholbach said. :)
[15:49] <dholbach> jono: what about the backstage requests I made earlier on? :)
[15:50] <popey> dholbach: do you want/need me to moderate and/or paste in questions,
[15:50] <jono> tazz: hey :)
[15:50] <dholbach> popey: that'd be awesome
[15:50] <popey> ok
[15:50] <jono> dholbach: white doves present and correct
[15:50] <DrDabbles> tazz: Do you listen to LUGRadio?
[15:50] <jono> popey: I owe you a pint, my friend
[15:50] <tazz> DrDabbles: nopw
[15:50] <popey> just the one!?
[15:50] <popey> tightwad
[15:50] <jono> adamsweet is one of the LugRadio presenters btw
[15:50] <DrDabbles> tazz: www.lugradio.org
[15:50] <jono> he is the cool one
[15:50]  * jono chuckles
[15:50] <jono> about as cool as a blazing furnace, that is
[15:50] <tazz> lol at first i thought poppey was a bot :-D
[15:51] <deandelponte> so, prepare for profanity and insults!
[15:51]  * adamsweet bows and thwacks jono across the chops
[15:51] <DrDabbles> tazz: jono is what you might call a personality on that show
[15:51]  * wankoo waves
[15:51] <GnuGustavo> effie_jayx, where r u man
[15:51] <jono> :)
[15:51] <tazz> oh was he now?
[15:51] <tazz> wow
[15:51] <jono> wankoo: unfortunate choice of nick :P
[15:51] <PriceChild> jono, don't make me !ohmy you :D
[15:51] <Sodki> jono: Hi, I'm the boring guy who asked you about boring package stuff in Évora, last Saturday. :-)
[15:51] <jono> PriceChild: do it
[15:51] <jono> PriceChild: do it
[15:51] <jono> PriceChild: do it
[15:51] <PriceChild> !ohmy | jono
[15:51] <ubotu> jono: Please watch your language and topic, and keep this channel family friendly.
[15:52] <jono> Sodki: hey :) you were not boring :)
[15:52] <popey> and jono knows boring when he sees it
[15:52] <jono> Sodki: dholbach was the guy I mentioned :)
[15:52] <jono> irk
[15:52] <jono> PriceChild: grass
[15:52] <effie_jayx> jono, behave...
[15:52] <effie_jayx> lol
[15:52] <jono> heh
[15:53] <PriceChild> jono, pardon?
[15:53] <jono> wow, great turn out for packaging 101 so far
[15:53] <tazz> hey dholbach, btw dhol in hindi is a kind of drum :-P
[15:54] <jono> hey Hobbsee
[15:54] <dholbach> tazz: cool :-)))
[15:54] <Hobbsee> hello
[15:54] <DrDabbles> Ah, just enough time to get a cuppa coffee
[15:54] <wankoo> jono: why is this nick unfortunate?
[15:55] <PriceChild> *grins*
[15:55] <deandelponte> wankoo:  google it
[15:55] <deandelponte> "wank"  :)
[15:55] <Amaranth> wow dholbach is going to be very busy this week
[15:55] <jono> Amaranth: heya dude
[15:55] <jono> Amaranth: I am right in thinking you are at UDS?
[15:55] <Amaranth> jono: yep
[15:55] <jono> good stuff :)
[15:56] <wankoo> oops :(
[15:56] <PriceChild> Not exactly easy to miss... how tall are you?!
[15:56] <Amaranth> PriceChild: about 2m
[15:56] <jcastro> sasquatch cowers before him
[15:56] <panosru> Hi
[15:56] <panosru> i have a question and i would like someone to answer it
[15:57] <popey> panosru: a classroom session is about to start
[15:57] <popey> you might want to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:57] <popey> or if it's of a support nature in #ubuntu
[15:57] <oon> hello
[15:57] <panosru> popey, before i ask, may i make my question about ubuntu here?
[15:58] <popey> panosru: you can ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:58] <panosru> popey, my question is about windows or mac or ubuntu
[15:58] <panosru> popey thanks :)
[15:58] <cbaoth_>  /ignore -channels #ubuntu-classroom * JOINS PARTS
[15:58] <Pici> cbaoth_: you probably want QUITS aswell.
[15:59] <jono> ladies and gentlemen
[15:59]  * adamsweet rolls drums
[15:59] <jono> please prepare
[15:59] <jono> for the legend
[15:59] <jono> the man
[15:59] <warp10|Gutsying> Hi all!
[15:59] <jono> the stuff of legend
[15:59] <jono> daniel "kickarse" holbach
[15:59] <tuxmaniac> :)
[15:59]  * Hobbsee dies of shock, at the greatness of dholbach
[15:59] <dholbach> Welcome everybody to the Packaging 101 session!
[15:59] <leogg> :)
[15:59] <jono> wooo!
[16:00] <dholbach> jono, Hobbsee: thanks a lot for that introduction :-)
[16:00] <M0useP0t4t0> thanks for invitation @ tuxmaniac :) appreciated!
[16:00] <jono> :)
[16:00] <dholbach> for those who don't know me yet
[16:00] <ecspike> yay!
[16:00] <dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, I work for Canonical, part of the MOTU team for a long time and have worked in a couple of other Ubuntu teams already. What I'm working on now is trying to make becoming a MOTU more easier and enjoyable, so if you have any questions, recommendations or worries outside of this session, feel free to drop me a mail at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:00] <popey> Guys, can we please take chatter and questions to the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel, not here. Thanks.
[16:01] <dholbach> if you have any questions about the session itself, as popey says: ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with QUESTION prefixed
[16:01] <dholbach> Who of you already started contributing to Ubuntu in form of packages or patches?
[16:01] <dholbach> Ok: Who of you started playing with packaging tools already? :-)
[16:01]  * Amaranth
[16:01] <ode> me
[16:01] <jackie> yes
[16:01] <popey> o/
[16:01] <mruiz> dholbach, me!
[16:01] <Sophomore> I have
[16:01] <Sodki> me, but on Gentoo
[16:01] <PriceChild> *waves*
[16:01] <matthe1> a little
[16:01]  * Jucato a bit
[16:01] <shane_> me
[16:01]  * effie_jayx raises hand
[16:01]  * Tesla-BOO6C4E-HE
[16:01]  * Martinp23 :)
[16:01] <tikal26> +1
[16:01] <peppych> first try this afternoon
[16:01] <DrDabbles> yar
[16:01] <shane_> checkinstall
[16:01]  * tuxmaniac pokes in
[16:01] <warp10|Gutsying> me too!
[16:01]  * andresmujica feels ashamed
[16:02] <dholbach> rock on! that's a great start! :-)
[16:02] <bahadunn> me too but mostly just debian packages
[16:02]  * jono smiles
[16:02] <matthe1> checkinstall!
[16:02] <dholbach> What I want to show in today's sessions is two tasks Ubuntu Developers do quite often: 1) updating a package to a new upstream release, 2) providing a debdiff.
[16:02] <dholbach> Why are they important? These tasks are performed quite often and if you're able to make good use of them, it's a very good starting point to get involved as an Ubuntu Developer.
[16:02]  * evarlast raises hand.  and using PPA - it rules!
[16:03] <dholbach> How do you become an Ubuntu Developer? First of all you become a MOTU: a Master Of The Universe.
[16:04] <dholbach>  5) Write your application to the MOTU Council.
[16:04] <evarlast> s/configure;make;make install/dh_make -s ;dch -v; debuild;dpkg -i/g #;p
[16:04] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains how uploads get sponsored. Sponsoring means: somebody who's allowed to upload to the build daemons, will sign your package with their GPG key and upload it for you.
[16:04] <dholbach> The review process is also quite easy: you file a bug with the a link to the source package or attach the patch (debdiff), then you subscribe either ubuntu-main-sponsors (for packages in main or restricted) or ubuntu-universe-sponsors (for packages that live in universe or multiverse).
[16:04] <dholbach> Are there any questions about that already?
[16:05] <manish-manipal> any oyher sponsors?
[16:05] <manish-manipal> any other sponsors?
[16:05] <popey> you want specific questions or just next in the queue dholbach ?
[16:05] <Amaranth> manish-manipal: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:05] <dholbach> popey: what you have in the queue already :)
[16:05] <popey> < oly-> QUESTION: I have just recently packaging an application i have written, i use the command dpkg-deb -b folder, i have been told i should not package this way any reason why ? and is this correct ?
[16:06] <Amaranth> dholbach: The current questions have nothing to do with what you just talked about
[16:06] <dholbach> oly-: there are a variety of different ways packaging applications: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic will help you with that
[16:07] <oly-> I know there are a few ways, i was just curious if there is any reason why i should not use that method,
[16:07] <dholbach> oly-: all the necessary bits in the debian/ directory are explained there - if you need help with your package, just write a mail to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:07] <dholbach> oly-: I'd need to look at your source package to say that
[16:07] <popey> < scorpioxy> QUESTION: Is there anything specific or magical about packaging a gnome applet written in pyGTK?
[16:08] <dholbach> scorpioxy: no, that should be relatively easy - in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic there should be a couple of python reference packages that you could look at
[16:08] <dholbach> scorpioxy: same goes for you: if you need help ask on the mentors list
[16:08] <popey> < evarlast> QUESTION: what is being done about the sparse documentation, conflicting documentation? What further documentation could be reference for packaging things like python apps, python libs via eggs, mono apps and libs, ruby apps, etc ?
[16:08]  * dholbach is happy to see so many people doing packaging work already :)
[16:08] <dholbach> evarlast: good question!
[16:08] <dholbach> evarlast: it's something I've been working on in the last weeks and will continue to work on
[16:09] <dholbach> evarlast: I plan http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment to be the definite namespaces for things to live in
[16:09] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: How is the sync between debian testing and Ubuntu done. Is there any involvement of the maintainer, MOTU other than the "Acks" ?
[16:10] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: the sync process is quite easy: 1) make sure we can sync the new version from debian (by proof reading the diff, test-building, test-installing), 2) file a bug with the sync request
[16:10] <dholbach> it's explained on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment too
[16:10] <popey> < DrDabbles> QUESTION: If I have an upstream update to a package not contained in UNIVERSE or MULTIVERSE...what happens?
[16:10] <dholbach> (or linked from there at leasT)
[16:10] <dholbach> DrDabbles: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment#NewPackages explains what to do
[16:11] <dholbach> DrDabbles: either you package it on your own or you file a request for somebody else to do it
[16:11] <dholbach> both is explained there
[16:11] <dholbach> To sum it up: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers are the process pages that you really want to bookmark, if you're interested in packaging and joining the team. :-)
[16:11] <dholbach> The MOTU team can be found on #ubuntu-motu and at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU - if you need help with anything let us know, there's also our motu-mentors list at http://lists.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-motu-mentors
[16:11] <DrDabbles> dholback: I actually mean what if it's in MAIN versus UNIVERSE
[16:12] <dholbach> DrDabbles: oh right - to get it into main it needs a review and to fulfil a couple of prerequisites
[16:12] <dholbach> the process is on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionRequirements I beliebe
[16:12] <dholbach> believe
[16:12] <dholbach> hope that helps
[16:13] <popey>  < tikal26> Question- How you can check if someone else is packaging something
[16:13] <dholbach> you can either check http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs and filter the needs-packaging bugs and see if it was filed there
[16:13] <dholbach> or check http://revu.tauware.de
[16:13] <dholbach> (also if you want to know if somebody in Debian works on it: check http://bugs.debian.org/wnpp I believe)
[16:14] <dholbach> let's get started updating a package
[16:14] <dholbach> one of the first things we need is check if we have deb-src entries in our /etc/apt/sources.list
[16:15] <dholbach> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy main restricted universe multiverse     if you're on gutsy already
[16:15] <dholbach> the next step will be to set up the DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL variables
[16:16] <dholbach> I have these two lines in my   ~/.bashrc
[16:16] <dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
[16:16] <dholbach> export<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:16] <kavoor> QUESTION: where can i get older versions .. for ex : firefox v 1.5
[16:16] <dholbach> please add something along those lines if you haven't already
[16:16] <dholbach> and run    source ~/.bashrc    in the terminal afterwards
[16:16] <popey> kavoor: please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat thanks
[16:17] <dholbach> these two variables are used by a couple of tools and it will spare you the pain of changing them manually
[16:17] <kavoor> #join ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:17] <dholbach> after that we'll install a couple of tools we'll need along the way
[16:17] <dholbach> sudo apt-get install devscripts build-essential wget cdbs fakeroot liburi-perl debhelper
[16:17] <popey> kavoor: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:18] <dholbach>  . build-essential will give you a minimal build environment (make, gcc, etc.)
[16:18] <dholbach>  . devscripts includes tools that make packaging a lot easier
[16:18] <dholbach> etc - this is all explained on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[16:18] <dholbach> BuildTools is the section I believe
 QUESTION: I dholbach. It would be great if you can explain to us how to prepare our development environment (hardy chroot, pbuilder, etc). Thanks!
[16:19] <dholbach> mruiz: for this tutorial I did not plan to set up chroots or pbuilders as it might take too long for those on a slow connection
[16:20] <dholbach> now we'll get the source of the old package
[16:20] <dholbach> I chose the somewhat historic case of brasero 0.5.2 -> brasero 0.5.90
[16:20] <dholbach> (as it worked nicely for me... :))
[16:20] <dholbach> so instead of running       apt-get source brasero        to get the source from the archive, we'll run:
[16:20] <dholbach>  dget -x http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1.dsc
[16:21] <dholbach> if the download is done on your machine, you'll see that it has downloaded a .orig.tar.gz, a .diff.gz and a .dsc file
[16:22] <dholbach> the .orig.tar.gz file is the source tarball the upstream author provided on his homepage
[16:22] <dholbach> the .diff.gz file contains the compressed changes done by the package maintainer
[16:22] <dholbach> the .dsc file is a text-only description file
[16:22] <dholbach> now we'll get the new source upstream tarball we want to update to (0.5.90):
[16:22] <dholbach> wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz
[16:22] <sgtd> demonstrating /topic
[16:23] <dholbach> now we'll extract the tarball:
[16:23] <dholbach>  tar xfz brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz
[16:23] <joumetal> rcd
[16:23] <dholbach> and rename it to the .orig.tar.gz file name:
[16:23] <dholbach>  mv brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz brasero_0.5.90.orig.tar.gz
[16:24]  * RainCT says hi (a bit late :P)
[16:24] <dholbach> now we'll simply copy the packaging changes over: in this case it's simply the debian directory
[16:24] <popey> RainCT: ----> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:24] <dholbach> cp -r brasero-0.5.2/debian brasero-0.5.90/
[16:24] <dholbach> now let's get the build-dependencies for the package:
[16:24] <dholbach> sudo apt-get build-dep brasero
[16:25] <dholbach> this might take a while, so I'm happy to take on a few questions
[16:25] <popey> < Knightlust> QUESTION: why host reviews on revu.tauware.de? Why not host it at revu.ubuntu.com?
[16:25] <dholbach> Knightlust: good question. it was community contributed solution to help with reviewing packages, I believe there was a .ubuntu.com redirect or hostname for quite a while
[16:26] <dholbach> that's all I can say for now
[16:26] <popey> < kavoor> QUESTION: where can i get older versions .. for ex : firefox v 1.5
[16:26] <dholbach> kavoor: best to check on launchpad: http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox - there you should be able to get all old versions of it
[16:27] <popey> < gonzalo> QUESTION: How do we get any other packages? Like, say, synaptic? Is there a standard place from where to retrieve them?
[16:27] <dholbach> gonzalo: if you're talking about the source, it's simply        apt-get source synaptic
[16:27] <popey> < DrDabbles> QUESTION: If the new version has different build deps, just install them manually and note the packaging metadata?
[16:27] <dholbach> DrDabbles: that's a very good question
[16:28] <dholbach> if you run       diff -u brasero-0.5.{2,90}/configure.in
[16:28] <dholbach> you will notice that quite a few things have changed from a build system point of view during those two releases (0.5.2, 0.5.90)
[16:28] <dholbach> -LIBBURN_REQUIRED=0.2.3
[16:28] <dholbach> +LIBBURN_REQUIRED=0.3.4
[16:28] <dholbach> for example
[16:29] <dholbach> that's a change you definitely want to reflect in debian/control
[16:29] <dholbach> if you all look at brasero-0.5.90/debian/control  for a sec, you'll see the Build-Depends line
[16:30] <dholbach> it contains all the packages that are required to be installed to build the package
[16:30] <dholbach> our version of brasero does not seem to make use of libburn, but libnautilus-burn
[16:30] <dholbach> so that change does not affect us
[16:30] <dholbach> DrDabbles: but generally: that's very important to check
[16:31] <popey> < Sophomore> QUESTION: wouldn't it be safer just to gzip -dc ../brasero*diff.gz | patch -p1 than copy the debian dir over? it'd be cleaner to do this I'd imagine, so ~ backup files wouldn't be copied over as well
[16:31] <dholbach> Sophomore: definitely, we could also make use of debian/watch files and use uupdate, which would do it all for you
[16:31] <dholbach> Sophomore: this was a selected easy example
[16:31] <dholbach> Sophomore: but yeah, I agree
[16:31] <popey> < ian_brasil> Question : how can I add my key to the revu ring?...the emaill address on the page is not valid
[16:32] <dholbach> ian_brasil: best to ask on #ubuntu-motu, there's always a few revu admins around
[16:32] <dholbach> (if it's not explained in a different way on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU)
[16:32] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: How do I proceed if I dont want my machine to get loaded with all the build-deps of my packages. Is there a way to install build-deps -> remove after work done?
[16:32] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: good question: there's for example pbuilder: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[16:33] <dholbach> which will create a chrooted environment, in which those packages are installed and de-installed
[16:33] <dholbach> it has the benefit of building in a clean and minimal environment
[16:33] <dholbach> I just didn't feel we'd have the time for everybody to set up a chroot in this session
[16:33] <popey>  < andresmujica> QUESTION: Which is the best way to help usefully to packaging without being a developer?
[16:34] <dholbach> andresmujica: it does not take a lot of coding experience to work on packaging. it's more important that you test things carefully, you're able to read documentation, talk to people and are interested in making things work and dive in directly
[16:35] <dholbach> andresmujica: on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs we have a bunch of tasks that are suited for new contributors, you might want to check out the 'bitesize' tasks
[16:35] <dholbach> ok, let's move on, everybody all set? all build-depends installed? :)
[16:36] <dholbach> for each upload you prepare in ubuntu, you add a new changelog entry, so that's what we'll do now
[16:36] <dholbach> cd brasero-0.5.90
[16:36] <dholbach> dch -i
[16:36] <dholbach> you will notice that a lot of the changelog entry has already been prepared for you
[16:37] <dholbach> DEBFULLNAME and DEBMAIL was used and the upload target ('gutsy') should also be there
[16:37] <dholbach> we'll change the version string to 0.5.90-0ubuntu1
[16:37] <dholbach> which means: 0.5.90 is the upstream version
[16:38] <dholbach> and 0ubuntu1 is the first upload to ubuntu (without being merged with a debian version)
[16:38] <dholbach> 0.5.90-1 would be the first upload going to debian, we might decide to sync that
[16:38] <dholbach> (depending on the differences in the packaging)
[16:39] <dholbach> also we'll change the upload target (it might say 'gutsy' or 'feisty' in your case) to 'hardy'
[16:39] <dholbach> in Ubuntu we can only do uploads to the "current development release"
[16:39] <dholbach> gutsy is released, so it was closed and only uploads to gutsy-updates and gutsy-security can happen
[16:40] <dholbach> (Ok, -proposed is part of that, and there's also -backports)
[16:40] <dholbach> add a fancy changelog entry like        "New Upstream release"
[16:40] <dholbach> and save the file
[16:40] <dholbach> now run      debuild -S -sa
[16:41] <dholbach> this will build the source package (create the .diff.gz and .dsc file) for you
[16:41] <dholbach> it might complain if you don't have GPG set up, but that's expected and OK in our case
[16:41] <dholbach> check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto after the session, you'll need it to become an Ubuntu developer :)
 Question: i am currently uploading some documentation to my PPA into universe/devel ...should this be marked Gutsy or Hardy?
[16:42] <dholbach> ian_brasil: if you want to get it into hardy, use hardy
[16:42] <dholbach> hardy should be set up right now, I hope the PPAs are on hardy too already - best to ask in #launchpad
[16:42] <dholbach> if not, using 'gutsy' for reviewing and testing purposes should be fine
[16:43] <popey> < ian_brasil> Question: if i want to send my work to someone to review what file do I need to send?
[16:44] <dholbach> ian_brasil: best to upload it to some place and give them the link to the .dsc file
[16:44] <dholbach> ian_brasil: that way, they can simply run        dget -x <link>
[16:44] <dholbach> (and get the whole package downloaded)
[16:44] <dholbach> .orig.tar.gz .diff.gz and .dsc are mandatory
[16:44] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: This package has a Debian revision number but there does not seem to be
[16:44] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: I have the .orig.tar.gz but it still gives this warning. Any thing I missed out?
[16:45] <popey> sorry..
[16:45] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: This package has a Debian revision number but there does not seem to be an appropriate original tar file or .orig directory in the parent directory;
[16:45] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: I have the .orig.tar.gz but it still gives this warning. Any thing I missed out?
[16:45] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: is this the output you get?
[16:45] <dholbach> daniel@bert:~$ ls *.tar.gz
[16:45] <dholbach> brasero_0.5.2.orig.tar.gz  brasero_0.5.90.orig.tar.gz
[16:45] <dholbach> daniel@bert:~$
[16:45] <tuxmaniac> dholbach, yes
[16:45] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: and did you change the version number in debian/changelog to 0.5.90-0ubuntu1
[16:46] <dholbach> (of the new changelog entry)
[16:46] <dholbach> once you've done that, run    debuild -S -sa    again
[16:47] <dholbach> ok, now we'll do a test build of the package
[16:47] <dholbach> up until now, we just did source changes and built source packages
[16:47] <dholbach> these source packages are uploaded to the Ubuntu build daemons, building the binary packages locally is still important for testing reasons
[16:47] <dholbach> so now please run         debuild -us -uc
[16:48] <dholbach> this will build the package and not ask you to sign the packages :-)
[16:48] <dholbach> I suppose this will take a while for everybody, so please ask questions in the meantime
[16:49] <hydrogen> Oo, it failed!
[16:49] <popey> QUESTION: compile failed here
[16:49] <dholbach> what's the error message, popey?
[16:49] <popey> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1242/
[16:49] <popey> thats the end of it
[16:49] <DrDabbles> Complains about no members for BraseroDataDiscPrivate
[16:50] <eyedol> I'm late. whats happening ATM
[16:50] <popey> eyedol: --> #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[16:50] <dholbach> interesting, checking
[16:50] <tuxmaniac> dholbach, failed for me too
[16:50] <AsSFOuR> hi all
[16:51] <peppych> +1 :(
[16:51]  * hydrogen rebuilds to get the original error message
[16:51] <dholbach> I'm sorry this happened - it worked for me when I prepared it
[16:51] <dholbach> the problem is here:
[16:51] <dholbach> data-disc.c:89: Fehler: expected specifier-qualifier-list before »GtkTooltips«
[16:51] <dholbach> data-disc.c: In Funktion »brasero_data_disc_get_property«:
[16:51] <dholbach> data-disc.c:602: Fehler: »BraseroDataDiscPrivate« hat kein Element namens »reject_files«
[16:51] <dholbach> data-disc.c: In Funktion »brasero_data_disc_set_property«:
[16:51] <hydrogen> yea
[16:52] <dholbach> I'm sure this is resolved in a newer version of brasero
[16:52] <dholbach> sorry to let you all run into this problem, we won't get that fixed just now
[16:52] <dholbach> I suggest we do a five minutes break until the next session?
[16:52] <popey> yay
[16:52] <popey> thanks dholbach
[16:52] <dholbach> thanks
[16:58] <dholbach> ok, welcome back to Session 2
[16:58] <dholbach> sorry about the problem again, I found the solution in the meantime ;-)
[16:58] <dholbach> somebody said in #ubuntu-classroom-chat "this was a good example" earlier
[16:59] <dholbach> and I think it really was: because it shows that MOTU work is sometimes detective work too :)
[16:59] <dholbach> as I said before: the new upstream version fixes it, so let's get the newest source and try again
[16:59] <dholbach>  wget http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/brasero/0.6/brasero-0.6.1.tar.gz
[17:00] <dholbach> rootvzla QUESTION: ¿As I am able comensar to work with the pbuilder and since where comienso since splits of it guides of pbuilder comienso to read?
[17:00] <dholbach> rootvzla: I don't speak spanish, but yeah, you can use pbuilder for this too, it's explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto how to use it
[17:00] <dholbach> once you've set it up, you just run        sudo pbuilder build file.dsc
[17:00] <unnamedXD> comenzar = begin
[17:00] <dholbach> and it will do the rest for you
[17:01] <dholbach> but won't deal with this in this session
[17:01] <dholbach> once you've got the tarball, run
[17:01] <dholbach> mv brasero-0.6.1.tar.gz brasero_0.6.1.orig.tar.gz
[17:01] <dholbach> cp -r brasero-0.5.90/debian brasero-0.6.1
[17:01] <dholbach> cd brasero-0.6.1
[17:01] <dholbach> dch -i
[17:01] <dholbach> and add a new changelog entry
[17:02] <dholbach> Make sure the version number is 0.6.1-0ubuntu1 this time
[17:02] <dholbach> and add something like 'New upstream release' as a changelog entry
[17:03] <dholbach> some maintainers like to list interesting things that have happened upstream, the NEWS file is usually a good source of information for that
[17:03] <dholbach> save the file and run    debuild -S -sa     again
[17:04] <dholbach> now, let's see if we get it building now :-)
[17:04] <dholbach>  debuild -us -uc
 QUESTION: matthew@matthew:~/brasero-0.6.1$ dch -i
[17:04] <dholbach>  dch: fatal error at line 391:
[17:04] <dholbach>  Cannot find debian/changelog anywhere!
[17:05] <dholbach> matthe1: you haven't copied over the debian/ directory from our previous build
[17:05] <dholbach>  cp -r brasero-0.5.90/debian brasero-0.6.1
[17:05] <dholbach> success/failure reports from anybody? :-)
[17:05] <hydrogen> succes!
[17:05] <dholbach> ROCK ON
[17:06] <dholbach> we've build our first package :)
[17:06] <dholbach> what might be interesting is to look and see what changed in the meantime in the packages
[17:06] <dholbach> cd ..; wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
[17:06] <dholbach> we'll download the old binary package and compare the two
[17:07] <dholbach> debdiff brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb brasero_0.6.1-0ubuntu1_i386.deb      (if you're using i386)
[17:08] <dholbach> will show which files changed, which dependencies changed etc
[17:08] <dholbach> it's important for the maintainer to check that, to see if files have gone missing, etc
[17:09] <dholbach> that was the first thing I wanted to show you: updating a package can be quite easy and is a good step to get involved
[17:09] <dholbach> seb128 and lool are always looking for new contributors in the desktop team and they're preparing a lot of GNOME updates
[17:09] <dholbach> #ubuntu-desktop and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO might get you started in that team :)
[17:10] <dholbach> also there are a lot of bugs tagged as 'upgrade', the link is on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
[17:10] <dholbach> ok, let's move on to the second example I have in mind, if there are no more questions about this one
 QUESTION: isn't it up to the package maintainer to update packages?
[17:11] <dholbach> thanks LjL
[17:11] <dholbach> afranke: excellent question
[17:11] <dholbach> in Ubuntu we maintain all the packages in teams
[17:11] <dholbach> so for all GNOME related packages, you want to talk to the desktop team
[17:11] <dholbach> for telepathy related packages to the telepathy team and so on
[17:12] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams contains links to all of them
 QUESTION: the first item at DesktopTeam/TODO says "needs UVFe". What is UVFe? and where can we find information about accronyms which may be common to packagers?
[17:12] <tuxmaniac> dholbach, you forgot bluetooth :-)
[17:12] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: exactly :)
[17:12] <dholbach> evarlast: that's a relict of the last release cycle
[17:12] <dholbach> UVFe means Upstream Version Freeze exception
[17:13] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule shows the schedule for the gutsy release
[17:13] <dholbach> Upstream Version Freeze means: no new upstream versions without approval
[17:13] <dholbach> everything related to freeze exceptions is explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
 QUESTION: ¿With the pbuilder can work itself in any flavor of ubuntu can be feisty fawn, gutsy gibbon in other flavors or can work itself ajuro in a single flavor is a question tecnica simple?
[17:14] <dholbach> rootvzla: pbuilder-dist of the ubuntu-dev-tools package might help with that
[17:14] <dholbach> ok, moving on
[17:14] <dholbach> Let's suppose we had received a bug report about the package description of xicc
[17:14] <dholbach> saying that 'colour' should be 'color' instead
[17:15] <dholbach> it's ridiculous and would probably be rejected in reality, but just for the sake of the excercise, let's do it
[17:15] <dholbach> first we check if that's actually true and run
[17:15] <dholbach> apt-cache show xicc
[17:16] <dholbach> among other things we get this:
[17:16] <dholbach>  This utility lets you set an ICC colour profile for an X display, so that
[17:16] <dholbach>  applications can use it to display colour calibrated images.  Applications have
[17:16] <dholbach>  to specifically look for this atom but several applications such as Gimp and
[17:16] <dholbach>  Eye Of Gnome already do.
[17:16] <dholbach> seems we have work to do :-)
[17:16] <dholbach> let's get the source code for it:
[17:16] <dholbach> dget -x http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/xicc_0.2-2.dsc
[17:17] <dholbach> things like the package description are found in debian/control too
[17:17] <dholbach> so:
[17:17] <dholbach> cd xicc-0.2
[17:17] <dholbach> sed -i 's/colour/color/g' debian/control
[17:17] <kongo> is the session over ?
[17:17] <LjL> kongo: no. sssh
[17:17] <dholbach> (or open debian/control in your favourite editor and change it by hand)
[17:17] <dholbach> now we'll add a debian changelog entry again
[17:17] <dholbach> dch -i
[17:18] <dholbach> make sure we upload to 'hardy'
[17:18] <dholbach> and also make sure we explicitily state what we did
[17:18] <dholbach> so something like        * debian/control: change all occurences of 'colour' to 'color'      might be a good idea
[17:19] <dholbach> 0.2-2ubuntu1 as a version number is fine
[17:20] <dholbach> '0.2' is the upstream version, '-2' the debian revision and 'ubuntu1' our change with regard to that
[17:20] <dholbach> save the file and run      debuild -S     to build the source package
[17:20] <dholbach> success/failure?
[17:21] <tuxmaniac> :)
[17:21] <dholbach> I get the following:
[17:21] <dholbach> dpkg-source: error: Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address
[17:21] <dholbach> debuild: fatal error at line 1247:
[17:21] <dholbach> dpkg-source -b xicc-0.2 failed
[17:21] <dholbach> everybody has that?
[17:22] <dholbach> that's due to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
[17:22]  * hydrogen didn't get that..
[17:22] <dholbach> our friends in the Debian team asked us to change the maintainer field in packages, when we touch them
[17:22] <giftnudel> (there's a warning for me only)
[17:22] <dholbach> that's why we need to do the following:
[17:22] <dholbach> edit debian/control and
[17:22] <dholbach> replace        Maintainer: Ross Burton<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:22] <dholbach> with
[17:23] <dholbach> XSBC-Original-Maintainer: Ross Burton<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:23] <dholbach> Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:23] <LjL> tuxmaniac isn't getting the error message, either
[17:23] <dholbach> we still preserve the original Maintainer, but as a general maintainer for a universe package, we set the MOTU team
[17:23] <hydrogen> its a warning here rather than an error
[17:23] <dholbach> that's really weird, that some of you don't get the error
[17:23] <dholbach> maybe we can investigate later
[17:24] <dholbach> still http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField is a policy decision we need to adhere to
[17:24] <dholbach> (the update-maintainer tool in the ubuntu-dev-tools package does it automatically)
[17:24] <dholbach> now we'll build the source package again
[17:24] <dholbach> debuild -S
[17:25] <dholbach> if you now run
[17:25] <dholbach> cd ..; debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc
[17:25] <dholbach> it will show you a debdiff
[17:25] <dholbach> (note that we used the tool in the other session already, but there we ran it on .deb packages)
[17:26] <dholbach> this time we want to see source changes
[17:26] <dholbach> can you paste your debdiff to http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/ to see if we're all on the same page?
 QUESTION: where are debtags saved (the tags for each deb package)?
[17:27] <chdorb> hello
[17:27] <dholbach> LjL: to be honest with you, I've never used debtags much
[17:27] <dholbach> I'll get an answer
[17:28] <dholbach> any successful debdiffs on pastebin.ubuntu.com?
 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1243/
[17:28] <dholbach> giftnudel: excellent work
[17:28] <dholbach> that's exactly what it should look like
[17:28] <dholbach> now if you run     debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc > xicc_0.2.2ubuntu1.debdiff
[17:29] <dholbach> the debdiff will be written to a file
[17:29] <dholbach> and is ready to get reviewed using http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
[17:29] <dholbach> so if you come across a bug you want to fix, you'd attach that debdiff file to it
[17:29] <giftnudel> (except for my e-mailadress)
[17:30] <dholbach> and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors (for packages that live in universe and multiverse)
[17:30] <dholbach> and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors (for packages that live in main and restricted)
[17:30] <dholbach> that's it
[17:30] <dholbach> and that's your path to becoming a MOTU :)
[17:30] <dholbach> after a few successful reviews, learning and encouragement of the team, you can ask to get added to the motu team
 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1245/
[17:31] <dholbach> good work isagani
 is this debdiff ok http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1246/
[17:32] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: could it be you swapped the .dsc files in the debdiff call?
[17:32] <tuxmaniac> dholbach, yes :-)
[17:32] <tuxmaniac> sorry
[17:32] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: and you added two changelog entries
 QUESTION: For a given software, is it a good idea to have separate debian and ubuntu Maintainer ?
[17:33] <dholbach> kongo: they are different people who maintain the package and work on it
 QUESTION: for a packages that doesn't live neither in universe nor main, who do you subscribe?
[17:33] <dholbach> kongo: collaboration between the debian and the ubuntu maintainer (and others, including the upstream authors) is really important
[17:33] <kongo> kongo, could be different could be same
[17:33] <dholbach> kongo: you generally set your name in the maintainer field if you say:
[17:33] <dholbach>  * I care for this package
[17:33] <dholbach>  * I make sure its bugs get fixed
[17:34] <dholbach> so it's really a strong commitment to have your name in there
[17:34] <slytherin> afranke: for packages in main/restricted ubuntu-main-sponsors. For packages in universe/multiverse ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[17:34] <dholbach> afranke: do you have examples in mind?
[17:34] <dholbach> (that are not in main/restricted/universe/multiverse)
[17:34] <afranke> slytherin: my question was in fact about new packages that are not yet in repositories
[17:34] <afranke> a "needs-packaging" package
[17:34] <kongo> dholbach, what i am thinking is to have ubuntu package exclusive of debian package. Imean ubuntu package is not derived from debian
[17:34] <dholbach> afranke: they all start in universe
[17:35] <dholbach> kongo: if you decide to not merge with the debian packaging that's a valid choice, but might be duplication of efforts
[17:35] <afranke> dholbach: thanks
[17:36] <dholbach> kongo: it's good to be in touch with others who have an interest in the package too and coordinatge together
[17:36] <dholbach> any more questions?
[17:36] <dholbach> I was just told that debtags information resides in /var/lib/debtags - does that help?
[17:36] <kongo> dholbach, thanks,
[17:37] <dholbach> savvas: I'll try to summon mvo, who knows more about it :)
[17:37] <mvo> savvas: debtags are currently downloaded to /var/lib/debtags
[17:38] <mvo> savvas: in debian it goes into the Packages file, but currently not in ubuntu
[17:38] <dholbach> savvas: does that help?
[17:38] <dholbach> thanks a lot mvo
[17:38]  * dholbach hugs mvo
[17:38] <dholbach> let's have some applause for Michael 'rockstar' Vogt, the apt hero (among other things)
 QUESTION: is it the same process if updating an ubuntu package? for example gutsy shipped with pkgx-1.2.3, but I want to submit pkgx-1.3.4. Do I send the debdiff the same way?
[17:39]  * mvo blushes
[17:39]  * mvo hugs dholb
[17:39]  * mvo hugs dholbach
[17:39] <dholbach> evarlast: yes, it should be roughly what we did in round one of our session
[17:40] <dholbach> evarlast: to get it reviewed, you might want to use PPA (http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart) or REVU (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU) and link that in the sponsoring bug
[17:40]  * giftnudel applauds
[17:40] <dholbach> there are quite a few different review processes in different teams, but subscribing the sponsoring team to bugs is the most generic and general one
[17:41] <dholbach> any more questions? about what we did in the sessions? about becoming a MOTU? about Ubuntu Development?
 QUESTION: will there every be any automatic update detection in PPA?  PPA could be smart enough to see when someone has uploaded an update to something in Universe and automatically associate it with a bug, or create a new bug for the package.
[17:41] <dholbach> evarlast: I wrote ppaput for that (in the ubuntu-dev-tools package)
[17:42] <dholbach> evarlast: just check it's manpage to see how it works
 QUESTION: so use ppaput instead of dput?
[17:42] <dholbach> evarlast: yes, it has a slightly different syntax, but essentially yes
[17:42] <dholbach> it will build a source package, file a bug, and upload to PPA
[17:43] <dholbach> evarlast: ppaput still has some caveats, but we'll iron them out
[17:43] <dholbach> any more questions? about what we did in the sessions? about becoming a MOTU? about Ubuntu Development? :-)
[17:43] <dholbach> did you have any problems during the session (apart from 0.5.90 not building)? found something irksome?
 QUESTION: I've tried packaging software written in java, but pbuilder won't let me use sun-java5-bin as a dependency. What is there to be done about that?
[17:44] <dholbach> amarillion: did you add multiverse to the pbuilder sources?
[17:44] <dholbach> amarillion: it should be explained how to do that in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
 QUESTION: Following the question raised by evarlast please provide explaination about UVFE and SRU
[17:44] <Hobbsee> dholbach: pbuilder will die, as sun-java5-bin requires a licence agreement, doesnt it?
[17:45] <amarillion> the problem is that sun-java5-bin can't be installed automatically because it asks for confirmation of the java license
[17:45] <dholbach> Hobbsee: good point
[17:45] <dholbach> amarillion: maybe ask doko about that or ask how to workaround that on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:45] <dholbach> slytherin: I explained UVFe before, it stands for upstream version freeze exception
[17:45] <Riddell> amarillion: use icedtea
[17:46] <amarillion> Riddell, I've tried but that crashes :(
[17:46] <dholbach> slytherin: SRU means Stable Release Update and it requires to follow the process on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[17:46] <dholbach> this process is necessary to get more testing for uploads that are intended to go to gutsy-updates for example
[17:46] <dholbach> which go out to stable systems
 QUESTION: wheres the free ice cream?
[17:46] <slytherin> dholbach: I know a bit about it. I thought evarlast was interested in filing bugs for new upstream version of a package for stable release. That is why I brought up this.
[17:46] <Riddell> amarillion: right.  the sysadmins are aware of the sun-java issue, so we can just hope it gets fixed soon (for your own pbuilder though, you can pre-seed debconf)
[17:47] <dholbach> hydrogen: good question - if you find out: let me know :)
 QUESTION: what should I do if I want to package two versions of a package and want both to be included in universe (for instance for compatibility reasons)
[17:47] <dholbach> afranke: you will need to rename the source packages and binary packages
[17:47] <dholbach> afranke: for example   pingus    and    pingus-snapshot   (if you want to package an upstream snapshot)
[17:48] <dholbach> any more questions?
[17:48] <dholbach> who of you ponders becoming a MOTU now? :-)
[17:48] <dholbach> who of you is interested in joining the crew? :)
[17:48]  * slytherin Is interested.
[17:48]  * afranke will need a bit of practice :)
[17:48] <hydrogen> oh, i mastered the universe a long time ago
 QUESTION: I may have missed it, but where is the new 'fixed' package supposed to be uploaded/sent?
[17:49] <hydrogen> I've moved on to bigger and better things
[17:49] <hydrogen> such as trying to get free desert
[17:49] <dholbach> slytherin, afranke, hydrogen: way to go! :-)
[17:49] <dholbach> savvas: the example we did?
[17:49]  * tuxmaniac wil lbecome a MOTU for sure
[17:49] <tuxmaniac> work hard tuxmaniac work hard!
[17:49]  * dholbach hugs tuxmaniac
[17:49] <nrpil>                                                               â
[17:49] <nrpil> ââ  ââ [o] jaosorg                â                                                                          â
[17:49] <amarillion> I'm interested in becoming MOTU too
[17:49] <dholbach> that's the spirit
[17:49] <kart_> tuxmaniac, best luck!
[17:49] <savvas> dholbach: does it matter? if it's minor/major change in the package it matters where it will be sent/uploaded?
[17:50] <dholbach> savvas: all uploads you intend to get sponsored follow http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
 QUESTION: is the size of the orig.tar.gz limiting? I've seen a large number of dependant libraries being included (again for a java package) which is unecessary on a linux system.
[17:50] <dholbach> you'll make the debdiff available or link to the source package (.diff.gz .orig.tar.gz .dsc)
[17:51] <savvas> ok ty :)
[17:51] <dholbach> amarillion: no it's not, openoffice for example has a source that's several hundred megabytes big :)
[17:51] <dholbach> amarillion: we try to re-use components which are already packaged
 QUESTION: What can i do if fixing a bug in one package requires an update of another dependant package, do i package both as separate ones?
[17:52] <dholbach> amarillion: in some cases that's unfortunately not possible and upstream authors should be talked to
[17:52] <amarillion> In this case, I've got a package that is 60Mb, of which contains a large number of jar files
[17:52] <dholbach> scorpioxy: yes and you mention that both review bugs are dependant on each other
[17:52] <dholbach> amarillion: we prefer things that build from source
[17:53] <dholbach> amarillion: so you'd try to package them separately all building form source
 QUESTION: For the java issue, can we use --save-after-login option and manually install java package inside chroot?
[17:53] <dholbach> amarillion: I know that's not easy sometimes in the case of java :-/
[17:53] <slytherin> amarillion: Check if those jar files are available in Ubuntu and manage build dependencies accordingly.
[17:53] <livingdaylight> hELLO
[17:53] <amarillion> yeah, after trying this a few times I've got the feeling that java is f-ed up with regards to packaging
[17:53] <hydrogen> your capslock button must have the exclamation point to the left of it!
[17:53] <livingdaylight> i wanted to know how i can add Nautilus to my panel?
[17:54] <dholbach> amarillion: you might want to talk to doko and people on the ubuntu-java mailing list
[17:54] <amarillion> Will do, thanks
[17:54] <slytherin> livingdaylight: This is not a support channel. Please join #ubuntu
[17:54] <dholbach> slytherin: what is your save-after-login question about?
[17:55] <slytherin> dholbach: As in, sudo pbuilder login --save-after-login and then install sun-java.
[17:55] <dholbach> ahhh ok, that might work - I never actually tried it
[17:55] <dholbach> ok, let's close the session
[17:55] <dholbach> thanks all for coming
[17:55] <dholbach> thanks for your enthusiasm and your questions
[17:55] <dholbach> and I hope to all see you on the motu mailing lists and #ubuntu-motu, becoming MOTUs soon
[17:56] <dholbach> check out: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU to get involved
[17:56] <dholbach> thanks
[17:56]  * Hobbsee warns *anyone* about to join ubuntu-universe-sponsors to read the entire description, before attempting to join.
[17:56]  * afranke hugs the rocking dholbach for his session
[17:56]  * dholbach hugs afranke back - thanks :-)
[17:56]  * savvas claps :)
[17:56] <LjL> thank you dholbach
[17:56] <kongo> thanks dholbach
[17:56] <dholbach> thanks LjL and popey - you guys ROCK
[17:56] <hydrogen> aww
[17:56]  * dholbach hugs y'all
[17:56] <scorpioxy> thanks dholbach
[17:56] <dholbach> :-)
[17:57] <Riddell> slytherin: yes it'll work, but it'll still get stuck in the ubuntu build servers so best to use icedtea if you can
[17:57] <amarillion> thanks dholbach
[17:57] <hydrogen> I didn't get to ask my inflamatory question!
[17:57] <hydrogen> (why not k3b, its obviously much better)
[17:57] <kongo> when is the next session ? testing one
[17:57] <dholbach> hydrogen: first ice cream, then inflamatory questions? :)
[17:57] <slytherin> Riddell: Ok. Thanks.
[17:57]  * dholbach hugs hydrogen
[17:57] <hydrogen> :)
[17:57] <dholbach> see you guys around!
[17:57] <dholbach> bye
[17:57] <hydrogen> cu!
[17:58] <PriceChild> *wonders if lars or heno are around?*
[17:59] <liw> I'm here
[17:59] <liw> I'm Lars :)
[18:01] <liw> shall we start?
[18:01] <heno> welcome to a session on automated testing
[18:02] <heno> liw: please go ahead
[18:02] <liw> all right, I've not done one of these before, so please tell me if I'm doing something wrong
[18:02] <hydrogen> saying that is doing something wrong ;p
[18:02]  * hydrogen be's quiet
[18:03] <liw> We intend to automate some of the quality assurance work for Hardy. That's because testing everything manually multiple times is very tedious and uses up a lot of energy that could be used for other things. It also slows down development and bug fixing, since the feedback that something works or doesn't work can take weeks or months
[18:03] <liw> There are several parts for this:
[18:03] <liw> * installation testing of ISO images, using pre-seeding
[18:03] <liw> * upgrade tests of installed systems, using piuparts and vlosuts and other tools
[18:03] <liw> * tests if installed systems, using autopkgtest, and also of GUI programs probably using Accerciser and Macaroon
[18:03] <liw> More stuff may come, later, once we've gotten this to work.
[18:04] <liw> Some of that has been going on already, but not terribly well organized
[18:04] <liw> Once the initial infrastructure starts working, we hope to involve the entire Ubuntu development community in defining and implementing tests.
[18:05] <liw> that's my introduction -- it's a lot of things quickly, and a lot of details are missing, but I'm now open for questions
[18:05] <heno> with this we hope to find problems early so that bugs can be worked on as they appear
[18:05] <liw> heno, if you have things to say, now's the time
[18:06] <heno> I'll just give the link to the testing pages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
[18:06] <liw> yes, definitely find bugs as early as possible, and possibly before they're uploaded, even
[18:07] <liw> I have some links, too, that might be useful: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
[18:07] <liw> http://alioth.debian.org/projects/piuparts/
[18:07] <liw> http://people.redhat.com/zcerza/dogtail/
[18:07] <heno> liw: <ttread_3> QUESTION: Can you explain what 'pre-seeding' is?
[18:07] <liw> http://live.gnome.org/Accerciser
[18:07] <liw> http://monotonous.org/2007/10/18/making-freedom-accessible/
[18:08] <liw> pre-seeding is the procedure where the installer (the text-mode one or the gui one, they use the same backend) is given the answers a user would normally give from the keyboard/mouse so that they're read from a file instead
[18:08] <liw> this way the entire installation process can be automated
[18:09] <heno> by using that we can test all the installer backend stuff quite easily on a range of hardware
[18:09] <liw> I don't seem to have a handy link to explain that in detail right now
[18:09] <heno> but we don't test the clicking of buttons in the installer gui
[18:10] <liw> heno, right, and also test the same things repeatedly -- the same tests every time there's a new ISO
[18:10] <heno> that will come later using the ATK framework and tools like dogtail
[18:10] <heno> liw: <hydrogen> QUESTION: could you elaborate a bit on how you plan to do this feasibly?  especially wrt hardware testing
[18:10] <liw> the gui installer will basically be installed in two halves: the backend and actual installation stuff with pre-seeding, and the user interface with dogtail/accerciser/macaroon
[18:11] <liw> ah yes, hardware testing
[18:11] <heno> (as you can tell we are still evaluating which tools to use)
[18:11] <liw> I plan on doing the bulk of the ISO testing in emulators, so not with real hardware
[18:12] <liw> that of course doens't test anything that depends on actual hardware
[18:12] <liw> so for actual hardware testing we need people to still do installation testing on real hardware
[18:12] <liw> but I hope to make that partially automated as well
[18:12] <hydrogen> do you have any ideas (or are you working on any) to increase the range of testers?
[18:13] <PriceChild> hydrogen, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[18:13] <liw> I'll answer hydrogen's question now, but please relay questions via -chat in the future
[18:13] <liw> I don't have concrete plans for increasing the range of testers, except that I want to make testing more fun
[18:14] <liw> I did quite a number of test installations of gutsy beta and rc and final isos, and it was quite boring, so I want to make it a more pleasant experience
[18:14] <heno> We will also make test reporting easier with the QA website https://qa.stgraber.org/
[18:15] <liw> and by fun I mean less tedious -- I don't intend to add nethack to the ISOs for testers to play during the test
[18:15] <heno> we can semi-automate some of the testing and reporting; sun a single command to test openoffice and upload the results, say
[18:15] <heno> run even
[18:16] <liw> less tedious, more automated --- and perhaps more communal: get more people interact with each other during the test phases, perhaps
[18:16] <liw> next question, please
 QUESTION: are there plans for releasing a "test kit" that users can run so that results can be gathered on a wide variety of system configurations?
[18:17] <liw> yes, something like that will be needed
[18:17] <heno> We'd like to do that, but don't have any detailed plans
 QUESTION: how do you plan on testing problems with X and the graphics drivers. Especially problems such as black screen on bootup, wrong refresh rates and so on
[18:17] <heno> it would be good to combine it with the hw-test program
[18:18] <liw> something I'd like to explore is a "tester live cd", which allows you to test lots of things (automatically), without requiring you to touch the hard disk
[18:18] <PriceChild> gah
[18:18] <begert__> thank you
[18:18] <liw> I'm done with begert's question, so unless heno has something to say, I'll continue with scorpioxy's
[18:19] <heno> On the last question: that will have to be done wit real HW
[18:19] <heno> though we can add some automation
[18:19] <liw> testing problems with X and graphics drivers (and wireless etc) does need to happen on real hardware... what heno said
[18:20] <liw> and that's one part especially where Ubuntu needs lots of volunteers, and where we need to make it especially easy and fun to participate
[18:20] <liw> so that people with a free evening and a computer can do something real and useful, preferably without having to re-install their system afterwards
[18:20] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: once you do testing on emulators why is there need for hardware testing?
[18:20] <heno> we also need to keep track of what hardware is being used for the testing
[18:21] <heno> answered by the previous question :)
[18:21] <liw> emulators don't emulate all hardware, and what they do emulate, they don't emulate perfectly, so testing on real hardware is still reqwuired
[18:21] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Continuing on the pre-seeding, is it in the form of a special ISO that boots to the live CD and then directly to installation with programmed responses?  Or some other way external to the ISO?
[18:21] <liw> that's one of the details I don't know about in Ubuntu -- in Debian it's part of the standard installer
[18:22] <liw> you give a special boot command line argument (but the Ubuntu gui installer can ask for a pre-seed url)
[18:22] <liw> if we do make a tester live cd, we can make that always ask for a pre-seed, of course
[18:22] <liw> but basically the pre-seed file is (or can be) external to the iso
[18:22] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Which is the most basic automated test method that could be used to test Ubuntu Hardy Tribe/milestone releases?
[18:23] <heno> using a custom ISO would defeat the purpose of testing candidate ISOs, so we won't be doing that
[18:23] <liw> heno, right, but a custom ISO might be useful for things like hardware testing, to verify that bugs in drivers have indeed been fixed; but this is all up in the air for now
[18:24] <heno> right, up for discussion at UDS
[18:24] <liw> the most basic automated test method would be to use pre-seeding to drive an installation onto a computer, or one of the upgrade testing tools to test upgrades from gutsy to hardy
[18:25] <liw> that much will certainly be doable fairly quickly after UDS and other meetings are over
[18:25] <liw> things like automated testing of gui programs using the ATK layer are going to require a bit more time and effort to set up
[18:25] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: pre-seeding is just one part to test if the installer just works, any plans for a automated test if it did its job right?
[18:26] <liw> part of the testing is validating that the result is correct, that is a very good point
[18:26] <liw> I haven't yet thought much about how we'll do that on real hardware, in emulators it will be done using the test harness
[18:27] <Myrtti> liw: _o/
[18:28] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Will there be an easy way for users to write their own tests? Like a easy-to-use test framework?
[18:29] <liw> that is the goal
[18:29] <liw> in fact I would like to see all tests written by users :)
[18:29] <giftnudel> good!
[18:29] <heno> accerciser and macaroon are tools that help you record tests
[18:29] <heno> they may need some adjusting after that though
[18:29] <liw> for the gui testing, for example, we have a vision of a "recording tool", where the user can make a new test by pressing a "start recording" button, then do some things, and then press "end recording", and put the resulting test script onto a website or something
[18:30] <heno> (it's all python scripts)
[18:30] <giftnudel> that answers the question, thanks.
[18:31] <liw> in similar ways for, say, server testing: someone will need to write tests (perhaps simple shell or python scripts) to test that a web server works before and after, that a database still returns the right data after an upgrade, and so on
[18:31] <liw> next question then, please
 QUESTION:liw said "testing problems with X and graphics drivers (and wireless etc) does need to happen on real hardware"  but isn't hardware is required for testing ? then how do you catgorize which needs hardware and which doesnt?
[18:32] <liw> basically for each test you have to make a decision about whether it needs real hardware or whether it can be run in an emulator
[18:32] <liw> that needs to be an informed decision by a human, I'm afraid, perhaps aided by some automated heuristics
[18:33] <liw> I'd like to see as much as possible be testable in emulators, since emulator testing can be automated, and automation is not just fun and pleasant, it also gives faster turnaround time and thus speeds up development :)
 QUESTION: in case of catastrophic test failures on the (admittedly good) scenario of a live CD with testing, how will you detect a test that failed midway?  May I suggest that you use the swap partitions on the hard disk if one is available?
[18:34] <liw> I don't yet know the answer to that question, sorry
[18:34] <liw> the suggestion of using swap partitions is a good one
[18:34] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Do you have any plans to automate testing of successful installation and removal of main/universe packages?  I understand that testing for all possible 'postinst' failure scenarios (say) is likely NP-complete, but perhaps you have any tricks in mind to test in the most common scenarios?
[18:35] <liw> the piuparts tool tests installation, upgrading, and removal of packages
[18:36] <liw> if I have time, I intend to test every package in Ubuntu with piuparts
[18:36] <heno> *cough* which liw wrote *cough*
[18:36] <liw> both on bare-bones systems, and in a few carefully chosen representative systems
[18:36] <savvas> did they say anything about graphics card / sound cards testing?
[18:37] <liw> next question
[18:37] <LjL> liw: there is none at the moment
 QUESTION: Wouldn't it be nice to have the upcoming test framework as an independent (yet optional) part of final releases? So one can write tests and verify large rollouts quickly. Not sure if this is the right thing for GUI tasks, but all "scriptable" tests would be nice.
[18:37] <liw> that would definitely be nice
[18:37] <liw> no, I take that back
[18:38] <liw> it would be AWESOME and IT WOULD ROCK THE WORLD
[18:38] <liw> but the testing stuff takes space, and the CD is pretty full already
[18:38] <heno> yep, it's clearly the way to go
[18:38] <heno> most of the framework is on the CD already
[18:39] <heno> including ATK and python
[18:39] <heno> just need to add some scripts
[18:39] <liw> right, so hopefully we can fit all the testing stuff by only removing one background image
[18:39] <liw> or something like that O:-)
 QUESTION: what's the projected/expected/target size of the testing payload?
[18:40] <heno> which is in itself highly controversial, just ask kwwii :)
[18:40] <liw> I have as yet no idea how the testing payload will be
[18:40] <liw> for example, one Accercises/dogtail script is pretty small, but if have/get good coverage, there's going to be lots and lots of them
[18:41] <liw> and some of them may need helper files, such as data for the test
[18:41] <heno> and we may need sample test data like PDFs and mp3 files
[18:41] <heno> though they could be downloaded during the test
[18:42] <liw> obviously we should use background images as test data...
[18:42] <liw> next question?
 QUESTION: Is there a tool that checks for correct desktop file while building packages (for gnome and kde menus)?
[18:42] <liw> I don't know of such a tool -- what would it check for?
[18:44] <chrisle> to create one in the correct place
[18:44] <Rudd-X> desktop file correctness?
[18:45] <liw> chrisle, I think the lintian and linda tools might do that, and if not, writing new tests for them to do that seems like a reasonable thing to do
[18:45] <liw> lintian and linda are "static checkers", meaning they check the package without running any files, which is fast and secure
[18:45] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Is there much collaboration between other Linux distributions, as you develop your automated tests?
[18:45] <chrisle> yes because a lot debs are only rebuild because of missing desktop files
[18:45] <liw> I don't think there's much collaboration right now, but it is our intention to contribute any tests specific to a program to upstream
[18:46] <liw> and I'd like to see Debian share any installation and other tests that we make for Ubuntu, to the extent they're suitable for Debian
[18:46] <liw> definitely most of the testing infrastructure will be useful for Debian, and perhaps other Linux distros
[18:46] <heno> I have spoken with Redhat and Novell people about this, but no concrete work has been done yet
[18:47] <heno> Sun and Mozilla are also doing good work on automated testing
[18:48] <liw> aye, as distros and individual software projects grow in size, everyone is seeing the benefits of automated testing
[18:48]  * liw thinks automated testing is luverly
[18:48] <liw> next question?
 QUESTION: What are the plans for the next (hardy) long term support release? what are you going to test mostly of hardware?
[18:49] <liw> we don't have very concrete plans yet, I think, those will be formulated during UDS
[18:49] <liw> that is, in the next couple of weeks
 QUESTION: blueprint planning a testing framework has yet to be started?
[18:50] <liw> I think that's correct, it's still waiting for UDS to be started; heno, is that right?
[18:50] <heno> right
[18:50] <heno> e.g. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-automated-tests
 Question: how much are you integrating autotest into the Ubuntu environment and do you have any plans to write a web front end to this if so?
[18:51] <rrittenhouse> yea
[18:52] <liw> all test results should be reported on public web sites, and for things that are clearly bugs, reports should be filed on launchpad, and the qa.stgraber.org site will be extended to co-ordinate testing
[18:52] <liw> exactly how depends on what turns out to be useful, I expect
[18:53] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Interoperation with Active Directory infrastructures is important for our users.  But many testers don't have access to an AD site.  Also, users may want to try out an AD howto on a known-good configuration if they are having problems with their local AD.  Are there any AD test sites with public ids and passwords that testers and/or users can test against?
[18:53] <liw> I don't know anything about Active Directory, so I must answer "I don't know", sorry
[18:54] <liw> if such things are technically feasible, and useful, then perhaps they can be arranged
[18:54] <liw> next question
 QUESTION: Is automated testing being developed on all the desktops - Kubuntu and Xubuntu included?
[18:54] <heno> there is a server team spec to improve compatability with Windows
[18:54] <liw> the ATK framework is specific to GTK, and if Xubuntu includes it, then the testing frameworks should work on that, too
[18:55] <heno> Kubuntu is tricky because it lacks a working access framwork like ATK
[18:55] <liw> it might not be possible to support Kubuntu with this, directly, but perhaps KDE will get a similar framework later, and then we'll extend the testing framework to support KDE as well
[18:55] <heno> most gtk apps should work (most of Xubuntu)
 QUESTION: Are hardware vendors included in the "big picture"?  Vendors like System76 and, of course, Dell provide an enormous hardware base with standard configurations.  Are there special ways they can get involved with the process of automated testing of future releases, since they have so much at stake with their customers?
[18:56] <heno> as indeed promised for KDE4
[18:56] <heno> we have a hw certification program for such partners
[18:57] <liw> heno, we do? oh dear, I was hoping I could convince them to send me one of each of their hardware models :)
[18:57] <heno> where we would perform testing for them and commit to fixing problems
[18:57] <liw> that sounds very good to me
[18:57] <heno> liw: you can still try :)
[18:58] <liw> I think we're running out of time in about 100 seconds
 QUESTION: how will the development of all this be coordinated?
[18:58] <heno> on #ubuntu-testing in weekly QA team meetings
[18:58] <heno> we're also setting up a mailing list
[18:59] <liw> definitely in public, with full opportunity for anyone interested in joining
[18:59] <heno> indeed
[18:59] <heno> ok, thanks everyone!
[18:59] <heno> great questions!
[18:59] <LjL> thank you heno and liw
[19:00] <liw> thanks indeed -- it's nice to know I'm not the only one interested in testing the heck out of Ubuntu before the next release
[19:00] <wnorrix> i am
[19:00] <wnorrix> :)
[19:01] <begert__> its a very interesting topic
[19:01] <kiko> Evening
[19:02] <kiko> I'm here, and you are here
[19:02] <heno> I'm not
[19:02] <kiko> so let's start out some Launchpad QA
[19:02] <LjL> kiko (Christian Reis) will now hold a questions and answers session about Launchpad
[19:03] <kiko> post your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll take a go at giving a good answer.
 QUESTION: We've seen some tantalizing hints of OpenID working in the wild with launchpad as a provider.  What are the plans going forward?  We're looking forward to reducing the need for multiple logins for ubuntu activists.
[19:03] <kiko> nealmcb, it's true, and you're right :)
[19:03] <kiko> nealmcb, we put in a lot of effort this cycle into producing an OpenID implementation, and it's now actually being used for one partner site (the Ubuntu shop -- http://shop.ubuntu.com/)
[19:04] <nealmcb> (I'm particularly interested in use by locos)
[19:04] <kiko> nealmcb, there are some additional changes we're working on that will make life better for loco sites -- an extension to OpenID that lets you ask if a user is in a certain group.
[19:04] <kiko> nealmcb, this is all very new and we're still sorting out policies, but expect more documentation about this by the end of the year
[19:05] <nealmcb> :-)
[19:05] <kiko> nealmcb, it currently "works" and if you try and log in to the shop you'll see you're redirected to login.launchpad.net
[19:06] <kiko> (it's one of the topics up for discussion in next week's LP team lead meeting, btw)
 QUESTION: Is there any plan to make one Launchpad user account work across all the Ubuntu websites? (say Ubuntu Forums)
[19:08] <kiko> the answer is the same as above -- yes, via OpenID we now have infrastructure to do this properly (instead of via that horrible hack that is used to authenticate Ubuntu wiki users)
[19:09] <kiko> I am in a meeting on the topic of forum integration at UDS, apparently :)
 QUESTION: Does LP will have an public api to gather data from him and send as well? maybe a SOAP or ReST API
[19:09] <kiko> currently, we have a very skinny set of public APIs
[19:09] <kiko> I'll give three exhibits
[19:10] <kiko> a) An XMLRPC interface for posting bugs at https://help.launchpad.net/MaloneXMLRPC
[19:11] <kiko> b) A set of RDF exports for products and teams and people: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugs/+rdf  -  https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+rdf -- https://edge.launchpad.net/~kiko/+rdf
[19:12] <kiko> c) A text rendering of bug data: https://edge.launchpad.net/bugs/1/+text
[19:12] <kiko> these were mostly hacked up jobs that solved specific problems at the time
[19:12] <kiko> this cycle we have a team put together to focus on two related subjects: Public APIs and feeds
[19:13] <kiko> there are some tricky bits to handle, including authentication (since you want to be able to actually let people change things through this API, you need to consider authentications and sessions)
[19:13] <kiko> we will have publically visible results early next year
[19:14] <kiko> infrastructure is being deployed in this cycle and we should have a few examples popping up by December
[19:14] <kiko> I don't know a lot of specifics about what form the APIs will take -- if it will be REST or otherwise -- but I will post about it.
[19:15] <kiko> (when I know more :)
 QUESTION: Any update on whether/when Launchpad source code will be released to general public? Is it currently given to _anyone_ who asks for it(under restricted license)?
[19:21] <shane_> QUESTION: I have an Acer laptop on which suspend worked fine in Dapper and Edgy. But since Edgy suspend has been broken and during the 'tribe' phases of Gutsy I did test it and submitted a bug report on Launchpad... but as of Tribe 5 it still didnt work. Why do we have this regression that is seemingly hard to fix?
[19:22] <LjL> shane_: A session is in progress, please only ask related questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[19:22] <dorto> shane_: this is not a support channel. Try #ubuntu
[19:22] <kiko> shane_, ANSWER: visit answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[19:22] <kiko> There has actually been a lot of discussion about OSSing LP internally as of late, but still no concrete decision in terms of dates and time
[19:22] <shane_> oops that was meant for -chat sorry..
[19:22] <kiko> it is a difficult decision for many of the stakeholders
[19:23] <kiko> so no promises, just allusions to possibilities; sorry.
 QUESTION: Does exist some way for a non-canonical staff to implement some LP blueprint?
[19:24] <kiko> it depends. that question might be asking if non-canonical staff can work on Launchpad code; the answer to that is no -- to me "not yet", but right now, "no".
[19:24] <kiko> there are some bits of work that are external to launchpad that /could/ be worked on
[19:26] <kiko> one example is cscvs, which is used for syncing other repositories into bzr branches
[19:26] <kiko> cscvs /is/ released as free software, and there are quite a few bugs related to it
[19:26] <kiko> however, there has been no community interaction or interest to date (I wonder why <wink>)
[19:27] <kiko> another example is in integration with other bugtrackers; we're currently using screen-scraping and all sorts of unorthodox methods to pull data from certain bug trackers
[19:27] <kiko> it would be really cool if we did get contributors to produce machine-readable exports of bug data in these trackers
[19:28] <kiko> Mantis is one such tracker
[19:28] <kiko> for cscvs, see https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs
[19:28] <kiko> if you are interested in working on bug tracker features, talk to me and I'll get you talking to an interested engineer
 QUESTION: Is launchpad.net trying to replace sourceforget.net ?
[19:29] <kiko> I'm not familiar with sourceforget.net. :)
[19:29] <kiko> the real answer is: not exactly, but we do provide projects with similar services
[19:29] <wnorrix_> typo.. sourceforge.net
[19:30] <kiko> we are a project hosting solution
[19:31] <kiko> we do provide source control, bug hosting, question tracking
[19:31] <kiko> we're not exactly a sourceforge match, of course
[19:31] <kiko> so the answer is it depends on what your project needs.
[19:32] <kiko> (if all it needs is a todo list on windows then Launchpad is trying to replace notepad.exe too ;-)
 QUESTION: Are projects completely unrelated to Ubuntu(even by long shot) welcome to be hosted on Launchpad? Would you rate it to be on par with Sourforge/Savannah? (at least bazaar is too superior)
[19:33] <kiko> wow, good question.
[19:33] <kiko> the answer is a very strong YES
[19:33] <kiko> we are thrilled to host your project on Launchpad
[19:33] <kiko> and we do host many many projects that are unrelated to Ubuntu
[19:34] <Myrtti> exaile <3
[19:34] <kiko> one good example is launchpad.net/zope3 ; another is launchpad.net/exaile :)
[19:34] <kiko> in fact, Launchpad is actually run quite separately to Ubuntu
[19:34] <kiko> (which does cause some exasperation to the Ubuntu developers at times)
[19:34] <kiko> our missing is to provide a general open source hosting facility
[19:35] <kiko> supporting Ubuntu is mostly useful within that mission in that distributions are great magnets for users, bugs and code. ;)
 kiko: that's great to hear. QUESTION: Which is the best source to read to get started with project hosting on Launchpad? All I find are unfinished blueprints.
[19:39] <kiko> dorto, yes! https://help.launchpad.net/FeatureHighlights
[19:40] <kiko> dorto, also, https://edge.launchpad.net/+about
[19:41] <kiko> tell me if you think those aren't good enough starting points
[19:41] <kiko> and I'll produce a document
 QUESTION: What is a good structure for a small code development team like loco-django.  Just use one team for simplicity?  Have an overall team for users and a -dev team to own the code?  When is a -bugs team useful, in practice?  Is there a set of best practices or recipies out there?
[19:41] <kiko> okay, /this/ is a great question.
[19:42] <kiko> the answer is (of course) it depends on what you want.
[19:42] <kiko> if your team is really small -- say 2 or 3 people -- then using a single team makes things easier
[19:42] <kiko> why would you want to split things up? there are basically two reasons.
[19:43] <kiko> a) trust. there are certain tasks you may want to restrict to a certain group of users. in this situation, you might want to use a separate team for core versus community, or something like that.
[19:43] <kiko> for instance, product drivers can approve nominated bugs and blueprints.
[19:44] <kiko> b) email. because some roles are actually "announcement roles", in the sense that we notify them through email on certain events, it is sometimes useful to split teams up to provide a high-level separation.
[19:45] <kiko> the bug and security contacts are the most obvious cases. bug contacts get emailed on all traffic on bugs for your project. security contacts get emailed on all traffic related to bugs that are security-related in your project.
[19:45] <kiko> there are valid reasons why you might not want everybody in the development team to receive all security-related email.
[19:45] <kiko> of course, you can use a team or an individual in any of these roles
[19:46] <kiko> so a security contact can very well be an individual
[19:46] <kiko> and if you don't want all of your team members to receive all bugmail, you can use a separate -qa or -bugs team
[19:46] <kiko> (it's understandable why Ubuntu does it given bug volume, of course :)
 QUESTION: Is it possible to work on (libre) cscvs without using (non-libre) Launchpad?
[19:47] <kiko> samgee, sure. cscvs is free software -- launchpad just uses it internally.
[19:47] <kiko> samgee, it was released with the intention that some community members could help get the import service working better -- but nothing has happened so far. wanna help that change? :)
[19:48] <samgee> yeah, but what about filing bugs and such?
 QUESTION You said "There has actually been a lot of discussion about OSSing LP internally" - what parts of LP are there that are not open source yet that might be useful to the wider world?
[19:48] <kiko> samgee, bugs are filed against cscvs normally -- have you seen https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs/+bugs ?
[19:49] <kiko> samgee, and the code is available at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs/
[19:49] <kiko> see https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~launchpad/launchpad-cscvs/rocketfuel
[19:49] <kiko> zeth, that's actually a good question. OSS launchpad would be useful to allow you to fix bugs in the service which affect you, and would also allow you to deploy a version of launchpad yourself.
[19:50] <kiko> the former makes sense, though you would still theoretically depend on our review and release process to get the code accepted (as with any other OSS project)
[19:50] <kiko> the latter makes less sense, since we designed Launchpad to provide a service so you didn't have to run a copy yourself
[19:50] <kiko> in a way it would be nonsensical to run your own copy of Launchpad and not benefit from having access to other project's code, bugs, translations, etc.
 QUESTION: is it possible for a company to use a private, internally hosted, instance of launchpad as project management tool? And if so, who should I contact for getting a pricing quote on that?
[19:54] <kiko> Seveas, it's a possibility, though not currently possible, IYKWIM. it /is/ possible to use the service privately (i.e. your data is kept safely with us, but not disclosed to the public by default, and you control disclosure) you should contact statik<EMAIL_ADDRESS>to request pricing for this.
 QUESTION Thanks kiki, but I am more wondering if there are there any parts left that are like Storm, i.e. that would be useful to other types of web application that are not project hosting services
[19:54] <kiko> there is /one/ piece of web application infrastructure that we will release, but it's currently hard to split out so it hasn't been done yet.
[19:55] <kiko> it's the zope3-based platform upon which LP is based.
[19:55] <kiko> talk to flacoste about that if you are interested -- it's a short-term project to get it released.
[19:55] <kiko> wnorrix, you mentioned a PPA tutorial.
[19:56] <kiko> wnorrix, I'd suggest you check out https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart first
 I'm kind of a free software purist, so I want to avoid using non-free software, even if it is to help a great project like Ubuntu. So I really want Launchpad to become free software. Helping with cscvs looks like a good way to do that. I could write the code without Launchpad, but I would have to use Launchpad for everything else (checking in, bugs, whatever). Is there a way around that?
[19:57] <kiko> if you wanted to, you could email patches to david allouche for inclusion
[19:57] <kiko> it would be weird to not want to use the bug tracker or bzr hosting
[19:58] <kiko> but I guess if you refuse to use google search then that would be a consistent position.
[19:59] <Seveas> s/google search/pretty much every website :)/
[19:59] <kiko> samgee, that's<EMAIL_ADDRESS>-- David Allouche, maintainer of cscvs.
 QUESTION : Is there a specific reason why help.launchpad.net isn't linked to from Launchpad's home page? Am I missing something?
[20:01] <kiko> dorto, I guess it's a bug. I'll fix it and will include it in tomorrow's rollout. :)
[20:03]  * kiko fishes for any last questions
[20:06] <kiko> thanks to everybody
[20:06] <kiko> enjoy the waves
[20:06] <popey> thanks kiko, nice one
[20:35] <LaserJock> Hello everybody!
[20:35] <_MMA_> :P
[20:35] <LaserJock> It seems our illustrious leader Oliver couldn't make it today
[20:35] <LaserJock> so until or unless he shows up you're stuck with me
[20:36] <LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm an Ubuntu Core Developer
[20:36] <LaserJock> I mostly work with Edubuntu
[20:36] <jesgui> buenas tardes
[20:36] <LaserJock> as this is spur-of-the-moment I'll give you a brief intro to Edubuntu
[20:36] <jesgui> saludos a todos
[20:37] <LaserJock> and then we can go to any questions
[20:37] <PriceChild> !es > jesgui (see pm from ubotu)
[20:37] <LjL> jesgui: saludos, por favor hable en #ubuntu-classroom-chat no aqui
[20:37] <jesgui> hola
[20:37] <jesgui> ???
[20:37] <LaserJock> First of all, Edubuntu is a derivative or "flavor" of Ubuntu geared specifically toward educational settings
[20:37] <alfermp> thank for the tip jesgui
[20:38] <LaserJock> it is a fairly small team
[20:38] <LaserJock> but we've managed to produce a top-notch education distribution
[20:39] <LaserJock> Edubuntu started out as an OS for children
[20:39] <LaserJock> focusing around a playful theme and kid-friendly applications
[20:39] <LaserJock> it has since grown into a full-fledged educational operating system
[20:40] <LaserJock> including the latest in LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project)
[20:40] <LaserJock> educational applications for a wide range of educational settings
[20:40] <LaserJock> ok, so I'll take some questions
[20:41] <LaserJock> QUESTION: can you sum up main differences from standard ubuntu installation to edubuntu ?
[20:41] <LaserJock> that is indeed a common question
[20:42] <LaserJock> the most prominent technical difference is that the Edubuntu Classroom Server CD comes with LTSP
[20:42] <LaserJock> and will do an automatic setup where possible
[20:42] <LaserJock> we try to keep the basic desktop applications as close as possible to Ubuntu
[20:43] <LaserJock> so you can think of Edubuntu as Ubuntu + LTSP + educational apps + different artwork
[20:43] <LaserJock> in the future we may develop the differences more
[20:44] <LaserJock> which may be very exciting for people interested in Linux in education
[20:44] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Are there any plans to adapt the thin-client model for businesses to use?
[20:44] <LaserJock> yes indeed
[20:44] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu server team will be dealing a lot with LTSP for the next release
[20:45] <LaserJock> we need better support of network authentication, things like easy LDAP and SMB setup
[20:45] <LaserJock> QUESTION: In the vein of Linux taking over the world by influencing youth, does the Edubuntu project  have any plans for marketing (for lack of a better word) Edubuntu to schools?
[20:45] <LaserJock> of course
[20:46] <LaserJock> getting Edubuntu into school systems is a major goal
[20:47] <LaserJock> we'd love to help students, teachers, and school administrators in "converting" their schools to Edubuntu
[20:47] <LaserJock> the edubuntu.org site has some info on that
[20:47] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Is edubuntu also meant for a first contact with unix like operating systems, or more of a  general education platform?
[20:48] <LaserJock> I would say general education platform
[20:48] <LaserJock> obviously it's also a great platform to learn unix-like OSs
[20:48] <LaserJock> but we'd like to include things like moodle and various teaching tools
[20:49] <LaserJock> QUESTION: since ubuntu is a newer product, what suggestions do you have for convincing network admins  that edubuntu is just as reliable (if not more so) than standbys like suse?
[20:49] <LaserJock> I would point a lot a Debian, actually
[20:50] <LaserJock> Edubuntu and Ubuntu are built on a solid Debian base
[20:50] <LaserJock> and Debian has a long and solid histry as a great server OS
[20:50] <LaserJock> I would also point to existing schools that are using Edubuntu successfully
[20:51] <musashi1> examples?
[20:51] <LaserJock> QUESTION: With tablet and solidstate computers becoming popular in classrooms, because they are tough and  cheap, is Edubuntu looking at incorporating some of the features of these hardware  architectures, specifically designed for schools?  The Asus Eee computer looks like it is going  to be especially popular, as is the One Laptop Per Child.
[20:51] <LaserJock> musashi1: of schools?
[20:51] <musashi1> yes
[20:51] <LaserJock> well
[20:51] <LaserJock> I don't have a handy list on me
[20:51] <LaserJock> but the edubuntu-users list would give you a great place to look/ask
[20:52] <LaserJock> you can find edubuntu-users on lists.ubuntu.com
[20:52] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is looking towards projects like OLPC and Intel's ClassmatePC project
[20:52] <LaserJock> I've been working on the Intel machine lately just seeing how things would work with *buntu on it
[20:53] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Does Edubuntu have special ties with Ubuntu Server, do you think there will ever develop a  Edubuntu Teachers' Edition or something similar?
[20:53] <LaserJock> I don't think anything special other than we have a common interest in server infrastructure
[20:54] <LaserJock> we're going to be working with the server team on LTSP and network authentication as I said before
[20:54] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is indeed a Teachers' Edition
[20:54] <LaserJock> we're just needing to work more on adding good software for it
[20:54] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Should we be evanglizing Edubuntu as a Child's dekstop to parents? or is more a school setting?
[20:54] <nixternal> don't forget the need for devs too LaserJock
[20:55] <LaserJock> I think it could definately be both
[20:55] <LaserJock> nixternal: yes, thanks
[20:55] <LaserJock> right now I would say Edubuntu is only limited by the available hands
[20:55] <LaserJock> we have lots of great ideas
[20:55]  * nixternal also makes a quick note to non-devs that there is plenty of documentation work for Edubuntu as well
[20:55] <LaserJock> the community is great
[20:55] <LaserJock> but we need hands to do the work
[20:56] <LaserJock> Edubuntu can defiantely be suitable for a child's desktop
[20:56] <LaserJock> some people have used it down to 18month olds
[20:56] <LaserJock> and I'm working on getting it going for universities
[20:56] <LaserJock> the common goal is "Education"
[20:56] <LaserJock>  QUESTION: Is there any plan for a non-LTSP Edubuntu distribution for those who want the installation to be
[20:57] <LaserJock>                             simpler on individual PCs(no network)? (like Ubuntu Desktop)
[20:57] <LaserJock> yes
[20:57] <LaserJock> we have a Desktop CD
[20:57] <LaserJock> it works just the same as the Ubuntu Desktop CD
[20:57] <LaserJock> it just had the Edubuntu themeing and some educational applications
[20:58] <LaserJock> we couldn't stuff *all* of the edu apps so you won't get everything we have to offer
[20:58] <LaserJock> but the rest can be easily downloaded via metapackages
[20:58] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Do you find you are able to introduce Edubuntu in schools easily, or do schools restrict  themselves to Windows
[20:58] <LaserJock> it can be tough
[20:58] <LaserJock> it is definately an uphill battle
[20:58] <LaserJock> but well worth it
[20:59] <LaserJock> and there is growing success around the world
[20:59] <LaserJock> there are several individual schools that have converted to Edubuntu
[20:59] <LaserJock> being able to drop an Edubuntu LTSP into an exisiting Windows network seamlessly will be a big help
[21:00] <LaserJock> QUESTION: many of the edubuntu educational apps are external projects (i.e. not developed by canonical),  are there any efforts by canonical to improve these apps? especially ones that are great but  seem to be lacking progress?
[21:00] <LaserJock> I believe all the apps are external projects
[21:00] <LaserJock> we pretty much just try to pull it together and provide the needed glue
[21:01] <shane_> QUESTION: have the team tried specifically to push for Edubuntu adoption esp in developing countries since it is obviously cheaper?
[21:01] <LaserJock> we have small apps here and there, Thin Client Manager, and I'm working on some cool menu stuff for the next release
[21:01] <LaserJock> shane_: sure
[21:01] <LaserJock> no licensing fees is always a motivator
[21:02] <LaserJock> QUESTION: What do you see as the biggest barrier for getting schools to use Edubuntu over any  other system?
[21:02] <shane_> Question: and how has it been recieved esp with the younger children?
[21:02] <LaserJock> shane_: quite well
[21:02] <shane_> :)
[21:02] <LaserJock> we have a thank you pic from a class full of kids somewhwere on edubuntu.org
[21:03] <LaserJock> one of the biggest barriers I see is getting around the mentatily that to produce useful citizens we must use tied to Microsoft products
[21:04] <shane_> My mother has a kindergarten and would really like to move them over to Edubuntu... but the the games and other stuff they have under Windows is quite vast
[21:04] <LaserJock> you have administrators who are not technically adept making decisions
[21:04] <LaserJock> they have to see that a switch will be better for the children, and better for their school
[21:04] <LaserJock> QUESTION: Are there plans to ship the KDE4 education programs in  hardy?
[21:05] <LaserJock> well, I don't think so as default
[21:05] <LaserJock> we created for Gutsy a edubuntu-desktop-kde package that will help people who enjoy KDE
[21:06] <LaserJock> OK, wow
[21:06] <LaserJock> we chewed up our time
[21:06] <LaserJock> and there are a ton more questions
[21:06] <shane_> QUESTION: are there any plans for introducing a simpler interface more akin to XO in Edubuntu?
[21:06] <LaserJock> I'm gonna stop now
[21:06] <LaserJock> and I would envite everybody to head over to #edubuntu
[21:06] <LaserJock> I'll try to answer some more questions there
[21:06] <shane_> thanks
[21:07] <LaserJock> and introduce you all to the team
[21:07] <popey> thanks LaserJock
[21:07] <BonesolTeraDyne> thanks LaserJock
[21:07] <LaserJock> Thanks for coming everybody!
[21:07] <stgraber> thanks LaserJock
[21:07] <peppych> thanks LaserJock
[21:07] <lieter> thank you LaserJock
[21:07] <alteroo> http://www.scunnymoney.com/userpix/2_ThankYou_1.jpg
[21:08] <popey> Hello everyone!
[21:08] <Daviey> o/
[21:08] <popey> My name is Alan Pope, and apparently I look like Elvis.
[21:09] <zzzzzZZZZzzz> That's nice.
[21:09] <popey> I'm going to talk a bit about launchpad answers, and afterwards take some questions
[21:09] <popey> Launchpad was covered yesterday by Matt Revell. See the following log of that session if you'd like to know more about launchpad in general.
[21:09] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/LP_Introduction1 - Log of the Launchpad session from yesterday.
[21:09] <popey> For the start of this session I'm going to "borrow" some of Matt Revells comments from that session.
[21:10] <popey> "Launchpad is a suite of tools that help you to take part in free software projects."
[21:10] <popey> "If you need help with Ubuntu, you can ask a question using Launchpad. Or, if you want to contribute back to the Ubuntu community by helping other people, you can answer their questions"
[21:10] <popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/ - the main page for Launchpad Answers
[21:10] <popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ -  the Launchpad Answers page specifically for the Ubuntu product
[21:10] <popey> (note this generally covers _all_ Ubuntu products [Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu] due in part to them sharing many of the same packages and resources)
[21:11] <popey> So if you want to file a question about an Ubuntu application (such as Gedit) or a Kubuntu package (such as Kate) you can do at the same URL above.
[21:11] <popey> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions. However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
[21:11] <popey> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
[21:11] <popey> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
[21:11] <popey> Anyone can offer an answer and the original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
[21:12] <popey> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project. Support contacts can also identify which questions are FAQ.
[21:12] <popey> FAQ - along with a good answer - are then easily searchable and available to anyone.
[21:12] <popey>  < mbt> QUESTION:  Will there ever be a ML or NG <--> LP gateway for Answers?  Some people (well, like myself ;-)  have strong dislikes for web forum based systems
[21:12] <popey>                                         for various reasons.
[21:12] <popey> Good question. I don't like forums either :)
[21:13] <popey> The good news is you can interact with launchpad answers entirely via email
[21:13] <popey> you don't have to visit the site at all
[21:13] <popey> so you can treat it just like you would a mailing list
[21:13] <popey> People can ask questions in their own language(s). Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
[21:13] <popey> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
[21:14] <popey> Before you can post questions (and indeed answers), on the answers system, you need to register on Launchpad.
[21:14] <popey> You can search and read answers without a Launchpad logon though.
[21:14] <popey> https://launchpad.net/+login - Register with Launchpad here
[21:14] <popey> Clearly you only need to do this once.
[21:14] <popey> There are other benefits to registering on Launchpad, including being able to report, update, track and triage bugs, translate applications and so on. I'm not going to cover those areas.
[21:15] <popey> So how about some use cases for Launchpad Answers:
[21:15] <popey> SCENARIO 1: John is a new user to Ubuntu and he has a problem with his computer. His 1280x1024 screen doesn't seem to be running at the right resolution.
[21:15] <popey> SCENARIO 2: Ralph is an experienced user of Ubuntu, and he would like to give back to the community. Ralph isn't a developer though, but feels he has enough experience at a user level to be able to help other new users.
[21:15] <popey> SCENARIO 3: Dave is a developer of a product (Mythbuntu) that is supplied in the Ubuntu repository, and is managed through Launchpad, he wants to answer technical questions from his users, and keep those answers in one searchable location so that he can refer other users to that resource.
[21:16] <popey> (yes, that's you Daviey )
[21:16] <popey> So Scenario 1 is a user, Scenario 2 is an expert user, Scenario 3 is a developer
[21:16] <popey> < rohan> QUESTION: in relation to mbt's question, is Launchpad Answers meant in part to replace ubuntuforums.org ? if not, why ?
[21:16] <popey> No. Answers isn't a replacement for ubuntu forums
[21:16] <popey> ubuntu forums does consist of Q&A, but it also has a massive community of discussion around it
[21:17] <popey> it also has libraries of how-tos, and other technical documents
[21:17] <popey> that's not what answers is about
[21:17] <popey> < dorto> QUESTION: Wouldn't Launchpad Answers result in massive amount of duplication of Qs asked and Answers given? The same DVD questions are already asked on Forums, Mailing Lists and  Launchpad Bugs site.
[21:17] <popey> Possibly, but that is going to happen anywhere
[21:18] <popey> newbies just flat out don't search for answers - a lot of the time anyway
[21:18] <popey> that's a fact we have to live with
[21:18] <popey> however, having the database available and searchable is a significant benefit
[21:18] <popey> in addition questions are tagged with the application to which they pertain
[21:18] <popey> so someone can (for example) see all questions relating to "gedit" or "firefox"
[21:18] <popey> which you can't do on the forums (easily)
[21:19] <popey>  < rohan> i mean, why not keep a single place - LA - for question answers and support ? why have ubuntuforums.org too, for the same purpose
[21:19] <popey> ubuntuforums was a separate entity, it grew throught the community
[21:19] <popey> answers has always been a strategic launchpad product
[21:19] <popey> the two run in parallel
[21:19] <popey> there is room for both in my opinion
[21:20] <popey> there are a significant number of people who _only_ use the forums, and not answers, and there are also groups of people who use answers but not forums
[21:20] <popey>  < mbt> QUESTION:  Is LP Answers intended only for "sanctioned" solutions and/or workarounds, or are answers free to address problems in any way that works?
[21:20] <popey> Good question!
[21:20] <popey> no, not at all, it's acommunity based application
[21:20] <popey> so people sometimes give duff advice, in exactly the same way they do everywhere else
[21:21] <mbt> May I clarify?
[21:21] <popey> yes
[21:22] <mbt> There are often several ways to solve a problem, with varying degress of "Ubuntuness" to them.  Is there an unwritten something or general concensus as to what sort of answers are supplied?  That's really more what I was asking I think.
[21:22] <popey> ok
[21:22] <popey> well, I'll give you an example
[21:22] <popey> Q: I'd like to play DVDs, what should I do?
[21:22] <popey> Answer1: Install automatix
[21:22] <popey> Answer2: Read _this_ page on the wiki
[21:23] <popey> Answer3: Install the following list of packages... foo, bar, baz
[21:23] <popey> Each answer is potentially valid
[21:23] <popey> none are intrinsically _wrong_
[21:23] <popey> what you find though is that it is somewhat "self policing"
[21:23] <popey> in that other members of the community will correct other people - but should do so within the bounds of the CoC
[21:23] <popey> i.e. not saying "Don't listen to that advice it's rubbish!"
[21:24] <popey> but saying something like "Some people advice against using method A, and suggest you should use method B"
[21:24] <popey> that make sense mbt?
[21:24] <mbt> Okay, thanks!  That has been a big question for me.
[21:24] <popey> cool
[21:24] <popey> I'm going to move on, then come back to questions
[21:25] <popey> Let's take Johns problem first. You can do this along with me now if you have web access - you will _not_ need a Launchpad account for this bit.
[21:25] <popey> SCENARIO 1: John is a new user to Ubuntu and he has a problem with his computer. His 1280x1024 screen doesn't seem to be running at the right resolution.
[21:25] <popey> John simply visits http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ (or goes to http://launchpad.net/ then clicks "Answers", then clicks "Ubuntu")
[21:25] <popey> (of course he can follow links from the ubuntu.com home page too via "Support")
[21:25] <popey> John can then search for his problem. Type "resolution" in the search box at http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ then press "Search".
[21:25] <popey> You should see quite a few questions appear.
[21:26] <popey> On the right there is a button which can be pressed to open a new question. This can be done if a few searches reveal no results.
[21:26] <popey> So if John wanted to ask a question, all he'd do is click the blue "Ask a question" button.
[21:26] <popey> However we have lots of results when searching so lets take a look at one already reported.
[21:26] <popey> Take a look at one specific example:- click on number 11110
[21:26] <popey> This should take you to:- https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/11110
[21:26] <popey> Here you can see a number of items of information:-
[21:27] <popey> . A subject in bold, a nice _meaningful_ subject. This helps a lot when looking for answers.
[21:27] <popey> . A short description of the problem. Note that the poster gave the specific hardware details, and also the version of Ubuntu being used. In addition they gave a list of things they've tried which didn't work. This information often helps get a speedy answer, and could be considered the minimum required when asking a question.
[21:27] <popey> . A reply from Cesare Tirabassi dated the same day. In it, Cesare doesn't try to talk through how to fix the problem, but instead refers to a document that already exists on the wiki. This is great because in the future someone else (like John) may come and find this question.
[21:27] <popey>   If the reply had lots of technical detail, then it's possible the response may be no longer valid (possibly if screens, menus or programs change name)
[21:27] <popey> . A further reply from the original poster saying that the answer resolved the issue. This is great. It gives helpers some feedback that they are giving the right advice.
[21:28] <popey> Pretty much perfect example of an answers question :)
[21:28] <popey> Notice down the left there are some neat features.
[21:28] <popey> Under "Actions" (blue box) we can
[21:28] <popey> . Edit the question (perhaps to fix the subject line if it wasn't clear).
[21:28] <popey> . View the entire history of the question
[21:28] <popey> . Subscribe to this single question so that we get email alerts when it is changed or updated
[21:29] <popey> . Link this question to a bug report - this can be useful where users report a problem as a question, but it's already a known bug. Bugs can be searched for in launchpad also.
[21:29] <popey>  So you may actually find the bug yourself then link the question to the bug. Once you do that the user will get notifications of changes to the bug as well as the question.
[21:29] <popey> . Create bug report and link this question to it (assuming you have already searched and not found an appropriate one to link to)
[21:29] <popey> Under "Ubuntu question #11110"
[21:29] <popey> . You can see a summary of when the question was created, and who answered and solved it.
[21:29] <popey> Under Subscribers to question #11110"
[21:30] <popey> . The original poster (who asked the question) is subscribed
[21:30] <popey> . Lots of other people who are also subscribed (including me at the top :) )
[21:30] <popey> Subscription means that you get emails whenever this question is updated.
[21:30] <popey> You can of course unsubscribe to stop the mails
[21:30] <popey> Some of us are subscribed to all questions so we get a mail every time a new question is created, changed, answered, solved, reopened and so on.
[21:30] <popey> (we are "answer contacts")
[21:31] <popey> It's probably wise that most people _don't_ do that, you get a LOT of mail as a result.
[21:31] <popey> Note that the question is marked as "solved".
[21:31] <popey> This can be done by the person who asked the question.
[21:31] <popey> They can choose to wait for more answers, or tick that the question is solved, and that way other people won't bother wasting time answering it.
[21:31] <popey> And other people reading this question will easily find the "right" answer
[21:32] <popey> Typically a question goes from "Open" (just asked) to "Needs Information" (when an answer contact asks for more detail), then to "Open" again (when the detail is provided) then hopefully "Answered" followed by "Solved".
[21:32] <popey> However it can bounce back and forth many times before a question becomes "Solved".
[21:32] <popey> Questions can also be tagged as invalid if they are for example duplicates or spam.
[21:32] <popey> Ok, time for some more questions
[21:33] <popey>  < dorto> QUESTION: Is there a *compelling* reason you think can justify adding yet another source of community support? FAQ can be collected and stickied on forums too; product
[21:33] <popey>                   developers can be requested to participate on forums instead of answers, forums are also browseable/searchable without logging in and tagging can be added.
[21:33] <popey> answers is linked to packages and products in launchpad
[21:33] <popey> so in _one_ place you can see the code, translation, bug reports and answers
[21:34] <popey> it's also only "another" source of community support for those people who don't _already_ use it
[21:34] <popey> for me the forums are _another_ source of community support
[21:34] <popey> it's all about perspective
[21:34] <popey> < dgjones> QUESTION: How difficult is it to avoid duplication of similar bug reports by different people when the wording or terminology is slightly different or maybe written by people  with varied native languages?
[21:34] <popey> You can mark a question as invalid and link to another question that has already been answered
[21:35] <popey> or link to a bug
[21:35] <popey> another benefit of launchpad is that answers are assigned to their packages
[21:35] <popey> (I'll show that in just a moment)
[21:35] <popey>  < DShepherd> QUESTION: Who is responsible for administering the statuses for each Q&A entries and how do they determine which status is appropriate?
[21:35] <popey> When a question is initially opened it is in status "open"
[21:36] <popey> When someone types a reply they have two buttons "Add answer" and "add information request"
[21:36] <popey> if you click "add answer" the status changes to "answered"
[21:36] <popey> if you hit "add information request" (maybe to find out what version of ubuntu they are on) the status changes to "Needs information"
[21:37] <popey> then the original poster gets to choose which answer was "right" or "more right" and tags that as solved
[21:37] <popey> the one that was "right" gets highlighted
[21:37] <popey> so others can see which was the right answer
[21:37] <popey> (something the forums don't do)
[21:37] <popey> for example if I visit the forums I might find a question with answers spanning 20 pages, and I have no clue which is the most right answer
[21:38] <popey> with the answer tracker it is up to the person askingt the question to just tick which was the most right answer
[21:38] <popey> in addition there is a janitor that cleans out questions that are dormant
[21:38] <popey> that is ones that have had little or no activity, and are not solved yet
[21:38] <popey> the questioner can re-open them to "bump" them up and maybe get someone to look at hem
[21:38] <popey> *them
[21:38] <popey>  < FayZee> QUESTION: I just visited https://answers.launchpad.net/, selected the "One project" option and clicked the "Choose" link ... nothing. Because the link is designed to launch a
[21:39] <popey>                    JavaScript popup window and I prefer to surf with JS turned OFF. Any plans to include non-JS surfers such as myself?
[21:39] <popey> Speak to Kiko :)
[21:39] <popey> I don't develop Launchpad, I just use it
[21:39] <popey> sorry
[21:39] <popey>  < dorto> popey: Ok, that looks really cool :) QUESTION: Does it work like a wiki regarding how bug IDs are attached, removed(if it was wrongly attached) and maybe re-attached by any
[21:39] <popey>                   user? Or only some people can attach bugs/code/etc?
[21:40] <popey> there's quite a bit of flexibility there yes
[21:40] <enser762> hi :D
[21:40] <popey> you can attach multiple bug reports to an answer
[21:40] <popey> you can modify the question
[21:40] <popey> it does pretty much what you expect :)
[21:40] <enser762> whats the rules?
[21:40] <mbt> enser762: Please keep chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[21:41] <popey> ok, my last few lines of prepared content, then if you have any more questions I'll deal with those at the end..
[21:41] <popey> SCENARIO 2: Ralph is an experienced user of Ubuntu, and he would like to give back to the community. Ralph isn't a developer though, but feels he has enough experience at a user level to be able to help other new users.
[21:41] <popey> To answer questions Ralph does need a logon to Launchpad.
[21:41] <popey> So he should visit this page first:- https://launchpad.net/+login
[21:41] <popey> Once registered Ralph can just dive in and start answering questions.
[21:41] <enser762> ok
[21:41] <popey> Ralph may have a lot of skill with one particular application, or one derivative of Ubuntu, in which case he may want to filter the questions to his speciality area.
[21:42] <popey> Alternatively Ralph can just visit http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ and scroll down until he finds questions he thinks he can answer.
[21:42] <popey> Don't worry if you can't answer many of the questions, someone else may be able to.
[21:42] <popey> In addition, there are some amazingly easy ones out there!
[21:42] <popey> You have to be quick to catch them though :)
[21:42] <popey> A nice benefit of launchpad is that when you do "stuff" like answer questions, you get given "karma", points if you like
[21:43] <popey> These don't really mean much other than give you a little reward, and *might* be considered when/if you apply for ubuntu membership :)
[21:43] <popey> It's also useful to filter the display to only show questions which are "Open".
[21:43] <popey> That way you wont see any "Solved" (no need for more detail), "Answered" (potentially solved), or "Needs Information" (waiting for a reply from the original questioner).
[21:43] <popey> To do that simply go to http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ then remove the tickboxes from everything except "Open" then press "Search" (with the search field blank).
[21:44] <popey> Start answering!
[21:44] <popey> Top tip: A considerable number of questions can be answered quite easiy with 30 seconds of google or wiki searching
[21:44] <popey> Honestly!
[21:45] <popey> SCENARIO 3: Dave is a developer of a product (Mythbuntu) that is supplied in the Ubuntu repository, and is managed through Launchpad. He wants to answer technical questions from his users, and keep those answers in a nice searchable location so that he can refer other users to that resource.
[21:45] <popey> There is a link in the top right of Daves product (Mythbuntu) page https://launchpad.net/mythbuntu/ to answers.
[21:45] <popey> This takes him to https://answers.launchpad.net/mythbuntu/
[21:46] <popey> It's a "helpdesk" system for his product, with zero effort on his part, it's a bonus of hosting his code on launchpad!
[21:46] <popey> awesome!
[21:46] <popey> Dave can then start answering questions, converting questions to bugs, and generally interact with his community of users through questions and answers in the same way that Ralph does for Ubuntu.
[21:46] <popey> There are many more features I don't have time to explain, so why not drop by and have a play for yourself :)
[21:46] <popey> Any questions?
[21:47] <popey>  < mbt> QUESTION:  So, you can use Launchpad for many non-Ubuntu things, too, is that right?
[21:47] <popey> you can use it for anything hosted in launchpad
[21:47] <popey> so yes, non-ubuntu products can also use it
[21:48] <popey> whilst launchpad is heavily used by the ubuntu project, the ultimate idea is that anyone can register any project (subject to T&C) on launchpad
[21:48] <popey> and use these great tools
[21:48] <popey>  < ttread> QUESTION: Is there any way to associate a question or answer with a specific release or platform?
[21:48] <popey> Good question!
[21:48] <popey> There are deliberately few tags, or fields for people to fill in
[21:48] <popey> that is a pain in some ways because often the first thing you ask people is "what release, which video card, what application"..
[21:49] <popey> ..but people actually are pretty bright and know there is some minimum level of detail they need to give
[21:49] <popey> and they mostly do
[21:49] <popey> Yeah, okay you sometimes get questions like "My ubontoo don't work. HELP!!!"
[21:49] <popey> but they are luckily few and far between
[21:49] <popey> and you have to take into account that these people may never have used a formal support system before
[21:50] <popey> so we cut them some slack :)
[21:50] <popey>  < musashi1> QUESTION: adding code tags doesn't seem an option. any plans to make that a bit easier?
[21:50] <popey> so you can paste logs and such? yes, that would be neat
[21:50] <musashi1> or terminal output
[21:50] <popey> indeed
[21:51] <popey> it can sometimes be difficult to read
[21:51] <popey> however I usually read launchpad answers in my email client so it's less of an issue
[21:51] <popey> the point that came up earlier, that some people don't like to answer questions in a web forums, but prefer to use mailing lists and such..
[21:51] <musashi1> i'm the opposite
[21:52] <popey> sure, that's the great thing! we have choice
[21:52] <popey> one person chooses forums, another chooses mailing lists
[21:52] <popey> we all get the job done in the end
[21:52] <popey> \o/ yay free software
[21:52] <popey>  < mbt> QUESTION:  If a project chooses to host their things with LP, how easy is it to set up an Answers "portal" (Is that the right word?) for the project?
[21:53] <popey> you don't have to do anything I don't think. It just works
[21:53] <popey> kiko?
[21:53] <popey> (I think thats the case, kiko can confirm)
[21:54] <popey> well there's only 5 mins left
[21:55] <popey> thanks for listening and being so polite and asking great questions everyone!
[21:55] <popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[21:55] <popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[21:55] <popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[21:55] <popey> :)
[21:55] <popey> If you have any more questions, feel free to ping me on irc
[21:58] <peppych> thanks to you popey nice session. I definitively have to hang more out on LP. you guys convinced me ;)
[21:58] <popey> \o/
[21:59] <nixternal> popey: you didn't offer them money again did you?
[21:59] <Daviey> popey: good session!
[21:59] <peppych> lol
[22:00] <BonesolTeraDyne> Thanks popey
[22:00] <nixternal> Kubuntu Time?
[22:00] <nixternal> anyone staying awake for this one?
[22:00] <BonesolTeraDyne> I am
[22:00] <Rudd-X> kubuntu, yes!!!!!
[22:00] <stdin> I stayed awake just for this :)
[22:00] <moriancumer> I've been waiting all day for this.
[22:01] <Rudd-X> it's 16h00 over here
[22:01] <Rudd-X> long live kubuntu!
[22:01] <nixternal> Rudd-X: same here, Chicago!!!
[22:01] <dorto> it's 2:31AM here :(
[22:01] <FADON> it already started?
[22:01] <ajmitch> oh dear :)
[22:02] <nixternal> can someone k/b ajmitch please, he is a troll
[22:02] <Rudd-X> Guayaquil! represent!
[22:02] <Rudd-X> :-)
[22:02] <nixternal> kthxbye! :)
[22:02] <ajmitch> nixternal: can do
[22:02] <nixternal> lol
[22:02] <FADON> 21:02 UTC
[22:02] <nixternal> ok, let me start this out with a quick intro
[22:03] <nixternal> Name: Rich Johnson, 33, Chicago, IL - Kubuntu, KDE, and Debian geek, Been with the Kubuntu project for about 2 years now, been using Linux since the Navy in 1994
[22:03] <nixternal> ummm, I do dev, motu, and doc work mostly, and the chicago loco team
[22:03] <nixternal> OK, that is out of the way
[22:04] <nixternal> I want to take a quick poll
[22:04] <nixternal> Who is here for the dev type stuff? Who is here for just the end user KDE rocks my socks stuff?
[22:04] <dorto> ubunturos: yeah, India. You?
[22:04] <Rudd-X> I'm here for both
[22:04] <nixternal> groovy
[22:04] <Daisuke_Ido> a little of column a, a little of column b
[22:04] <Rudd-X> I want juicy dev porn
[22:04] <Riddell> both!
[22:04] <lieter> nixternal, last one
[22:04] <Otenkiya> Mostly rocks my sox, a little dev.
[22:04] <robc4> end user
[22:04] <FADON> just like a user
[22:04] <awkorama_> i'm here for very ulikely convincement to switch to kde
[22:04] <nixternal> thanks Riddell :)
[22:05] <Sanne> both
[22:05] <ttread> both
[22:05] <Rudd-X> sup jonathan
[22:05] <peppych> to learn more so I would say both
[22:05] <PwrKroll> both!
[22:05] <BonesolTeraDyne> a bit of both
[22:05] <ajmitch> the former
[22:05] <moriancumer> user
[22:05] <nixternal> alrighty, lets kick off with some dev talk....I am sure you all followed the 7.10 release closely
[22:06] <nixternal> So as most of you know we added Strigi (hold down the boos), and we incorporated Dolphin (not D3lphin) as the default file manager
[22:07] <nixternal> We were the first distro to release KDE 3.5.8, and actually the only one still to day, with a major release
[22:07] <Riddell> ? it was D3lphin
[22:07] <nixternal> well it is dolphin now, someone woke up and realised you don't spell it with a 3 :)
[22:07] <Riddell> aye, we patched the name
[22:08] <nixternal> alrighty, the past is done, lets talk about Hardy and what we are looking at for the next 6 months of development
[22:08] <nixternal> since Hardy is going to be an LTS release, our main goal is definitely going to be stability
[22:09] <nixternal> there are a lot of bugs with Kubuntu right now, and only a handful of developers...so if there is one thing you take out of this entire talk, it should be...We need you! There is plenty of work, not only for developers, but for people who just installed Linux today, or are going to install it tomorrow
[22:09] <nixternal> let me retract that "lot of bugs with kubuntu"
[22:09] <nixternal> there are a lot of K related bugs
[22:10] <nixternal> which of course when we absorb the packages, Kubuntu absorbs the issues as well...granted the vast majority are minor and usually easy to work around, but we have some bugs that we are definitely interested in getting them worked out with Hardy
[22:11] <nixternal> as for our plans, next weekend in Boston, most of our ideas will be on the firing line, or the drawing board in Boston at the Ubuntu Developer Summit
[22:11] <nixternal> so as it stands, nothing is yet set in stone....so hopefully we will be able to get some user input this following week of likes and dislikes...because we create Kubuntu for you more so than we do for us
[22:12] <nixternal> KDE 4
[22:12] <nixternal> how many ofyou just woke back up?
[22:12]  * Rudd-X did
[22:12]  * Otenkiya raises her hand
[22:12] <xjdriver69> me
[22:12]  * DShepherd yawns
[22:12] <nixternal> I love how I can just throw that out and people perk right up like I dropped something in their drink
[22:12]  * daSkreech raises head
[22:12]  * BonesolTeraDyne ditches #kubuntu to hear this
[22:12] <nixternal> hahaha
[22:13] <Daisuke_Ido> i think i'm the only one not impressed so far :)
[22:13]  * begert__ drinks drink
[22:13] <Daisuke_Ido> (with kde4, not nixternal :)
[22:13] <nixternal> Riddell: you can throw in a little with this one as well, since you are the boss, but I would like to toss out my idea for Hardy, and I am sure, well I know we have talked about it
[22:13] <nixternal> How about a Live CD with KDE 4 by default?
[22:14] <Riddell> ooh, yes please
[22:14]  * daSkreech fires up his burner
[22:14] <DShepherd> nixternal, that's usable? sure
[22:14] <nixternal> Seeing as we will not release the LTS with KDE 4, but instead keep with the more stable KDE 3.5 branch
[22:14] <Riddell> lets do that on the day of 4.0 release
[22:14] <Rudd-X> I think that would be a great idea *if* the packages in the KDE4 livecd are the same packages in a publicly available tentative repo
[22:14] <nixternal> Rudd-X: they would be
[22:15] <Rudd-X> Riddell: that would be a major PR coup
[22:15] <nixternal> we only use the Ubuntu repos, so what would be on said CD, would be available for everyone no matter what *buntu they installed
[22:15] <daSkreech> Rudd-X: do you mean if they track the KDE4 repos?
[22:15] <Rudd-X> I basically mean what nixternal just confirmed.  that we as users can use it as an everyday desktop choice, not just on livecds.
[22:16] <nixternal> If I can push Riddell a little more, I would like to work on getting the Live CD started prior to the 4.0 release, maybe an RC release so we can get people to start filing bugs on it
[22:16] <stdin> please keep the chat in -chat :)
[22:17] <Riddell> how usable KDE 4 is of course depends on the KDE developers