[07:58] <sabdfl> time for TB / CC commentary
[07:58] <pinkisntwell> an ksekiniso na kano translate apo rosetta se breezy de tha metaferthoun kai ston dapper etsi ki allios?
[07:58] <sabdfl> TB?
[07:58] <natroll> jdub, if it can't be completed within the schedule we want to keep, realistically, then there isn't much choice
[07:58] <sabdfl> pinkisntwell: can you google translate that and paste it here please?
[07:59] <Riddell> Amaranth: we use whatever fits best
[07:59] <Xanadu> any idea on KDE4 maybe making it into dapper+1? might affect d+1's release schedule
[07:59] <Riddell> Xanadu: not going to happen
[07:59] <Seveas> sabdfl, pinkisntwell speaks english quite well - it's not at all far-fetched to assume trolling
[07:59] <sabdfl> Xanadu: please, focus on the topic
[07:59] <mako> CC commentary?
[07:59] <sabdfl> mako: go for it
[07:59] <mako> oh, you want me to comment
[07:59] <aboe> dapper+1 shouldn't be delayed, XGL already in multi/universe, Beagle, so what will be new features???
[08:00] <mdz> sabdfl: I think we're the only TB members here and we've both spoken on this already
[08:00] <mako> i wasn't sure who was supposed to be comment
[08:00] <mako> or be commented to
[08:00] <sabdfl> aboe: i'm asking for TB and CC folks to weigh in
[08:00] <sabdfl> mako: go ahead (and hi!)
[08:01] <libervisco> TB = TechBoard, CC = Community Council
[08:01] <mako> i think i have a little conflict of interest because i'm working on the official book.. and it would be nice to have them come out around the same time :)
[08:01] <Seveas> mako, as I understood, the book deadline slides along with Dapper
[08:01] <sabdfl> mako: and on the same media :-)
[08:02] <Lele_ete> If during the delay you update frequently the 5.10 release....the delay will be more sweet....:-)
[08:02] <mako> right, but the books could be printed and such
[08:02] <Kamion> I'm worried about the repeated invocations of Parkinson's Law we're seeing ("work expands to fill the time available for its completion"), and I'm not sure if we're going to manage to keep a lid on that without locking down the archive (which is not practical for a six-week duration)
[08:02] <Kamion> I'm somewhat mollified if we bring dapper+1 back onto schedule, though; that will reduce negative PR impact a lot
[08:02] <Kamion> especially if we announce it along with announcing a delay
[08:02] <ailean> agreed
[08:03] <sabdfl> Kamion: so you're in favour of dapper+1 being in October, as originally planned?
[08:03] <Kamion> sabdfl: yeah
[08:03] <sabdfl> i think with the benefit of hindsight i would have proposed 8 months dapper, 4 months dapper+1 in Montreal
[08:03] <sagarab> agree with kamion
[08:03] <mako> if folks who are going to have the biggest headaches are alright with a plan to bring dapper+1 back on schedule, i think that's ideal
[08:04] <sabdfl> ok
[08:04] <sabdfl> mako: any non-book comments? upstream impact?
[08:04] <elmo> I'm not unhappy about dapper's delay, as I think it could definitely benefit from some more bugfix time, but like kamion, I'd like to see dapper+1 back on schedule
[08:04] <ploum> elmo++
[08:04] <Aelor> agree
[08:04] <mako> sabdfl: i don't see a huge negative impact now that these meeting have been held and opinions voiced have been considered
[08:04] <ploum> if not, I'm afraid to see a time translation
[08:04] <Kamion> I'd like to make sure it actually *is* bug-fix time - maybe explicitly allocate some developers to trawling malone for fixes
[08:04] <sabdfl> ok
[08:04] <mako> i'm less concerned with what the decision is than how it is made
[08:05] <mako> and i think this is the right way to make it
[08:05] <hunger> ssshs
[08:05] <sabdfl> ok
[08:05] <Kamion> I mean more widely that people's individual package maintenance
[08:06] <sabdfl> ok, can we ask TB to discuss the full ramifications of a delay (what happens to beta, preview, freeze exceptions, art, ui, doc freezes)
[08:06] <sabdfl> also, further discussion on dapper+1
[08:06] <hub> elmo++
[08:06] <sabdfl> my vote is for dapper+1 to catch up hard
[08:07] <ailean> when will a decision be made?
[08:07] <sabdfl> with the proviso that we consider the sync time and not kill everybody
[08:07] <libervisco> suggestions: preview in time, final dapper in 6 weeks, dapper+1 four months later (in time)
[08:07] <sabdfl> if we have to take two releases to catchup, that's better than finishing folks off
[08:07] <sabdfl> libervisco: join the TB meeting
[08:07] <libervisco> sabdfl, where?
[08:08] <Seveas> libervisco, here - in an hour
[08:08] <mdz> libervisco: here
[08:08] <libervisco> hm I'm actually not really involved with Ubuntu, just observing :)
[08:08] <libervisco> but ok :)
[08:08] <Amaranth> You'd have to know the main goals for dapper+1 before knowing if chopping 6 weeks off it's schedule will kill someone. But if these goals haven't been set yet (except in broad terms) then there should be no problem, people will just have to take that into consideration when setting goals.
[08:08] <sagarab> votes for 6 week delay with dapper with d+1 bang on schedule
[08:08] <GFDL> what does TB mean? (sorry for the stupid question :()
[08:09] <natroll> TechBoard
[08:09] <GFDL> oh! thanks natroll
[08:09] <natroll> np :D
[08:09] <ailean> i'd vote for that too - if votes are being counted . . .
[08:09] <sabdfl> ok
[08:09] <sabdfl> thank you everybody for coming along
[08:09] <Kamion> Amaranth: we've yet to decide the goals, and can take schedule changes into account
[08:09] <sabdfl> seveas, can i ask you to summarise?
[08:09] <natroll> sabdfl, our pleasure :D
[08:09] <ogra> if we really want to do that i'd vote for rather 4 weeks delay of dapper
[08:09] <Seveas> sabdfl, I'll add it to the existing summary
[08:10] <roshan_> Instead of catching up, why not track Gnome 2.x.2 instead of the .0 release, since they are more stable?
[08:10] <sabdfl> after the TB has dedicated some time to this, we'll have a meeting with TB and CC to take a final view on the roadmap
[08:10] <mdz> roshan_: we track .1 currently
[08:10] <Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for anwering all questions/responding to all comments
[08:10] <sabdfl> NOW please send animal name suggestions for E to seveas' wiki page
[08:10] <ogra> haha
[08:10] <Seveas> http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/UbuntuNames
[08:10] <Amaranth> So I take it this extension is going to seriously overlap with debconf?
[08:10] <jordi> roshan: .2 doesn't add much more to .1, generally
[08:10] <Seveas> PLEASE RESPECT THE EDITLOCK!
[08:11] <ompaul> we did we are in trouble  Evangelising Elk
[08:11] <sabdfl> sivang: not coined. minted. now shush :-)
[08:11] <Kamion> Amaranth: http://debconf6.debconf.org/
[08:11] <sabdfl> thank you all
[08:11] <sabdfl> good night and... good luck :-)
[08:11] <mdz> good night, all
[08:11] <mako> is there's a very-soon meeting i should be at, someone please send me an SMS
[08:11] <alex-weej> am i too late for the biscuits?
[08:11] <ogra> ciao sabdfl/mdz
[08:11] <Tonio_> sabdfl: pleasure !
[08:11] <sabdfl> mako: it's TB
[08:11] <Seveas> mako, CC next week (time to be decided)
[08:11] <dippie> I wanted to comment and edited my comment but the discussion was so fast and didn't want to interrupt anyone
[08:11] <sagarab> thks all and good night
[08:11] <libervisco> night sabdfl, mdz
[08:11] <sabdfl> but if you can i need someone to stand in for me
[08:11] <sabdfl> happy for you to
[08:11] <dippie> can I still paste now?
[08:12] <mako> ok, great
[08:12] <Seveas> oh Kamion elmo  mako sabdfl since you're all here: decide on a time please ;)
[08:12] <IceBreak> when is the 2nd meeting?
[08:12] <Seveas> dippie, meeting is over, feel free to paste in my PM
[08:12] <Jergar> I vote for drunken Guinea Pig :-)
[08:12] <Seveas> IceBreak, this was the second
[08:12] <dippie> ok
[08:12] <IceBreak> in how many hours ?
[08:12] <sabdfl> Seveas: we have to run, we are late
[08:12] <Tonio_> IceBreak: 45 minutes
[08:12] <IceBreak> oh really ? blah :(
[08:12] <Amaranth> Kamion: So for the last two weeks of the extended period most of you will be at debconf?
[08:12] <Kamion> Amaranth: sort of the middle two weeks
[08:12] <sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much for keeping us on track
[08:12] <sabdfl> night
[08:13] <Seveas> If anybody sent me a PM during the meeting and expects answers: yell now
[08:13] <IceBreak> what was decided?
[08:13] <Amaranth> Nothing, yet.
[08:13] <yonatan> lol
[08:13] <Seveas> IceBreak, nothing - TB/CC will decide
[08:13] <sivang> Seveas: can you please set the exact time on the TB meeting that follows at the topic? kthx ;-)
[08:13] <Amaranth> That's what the next meeting is for.
[08:13] <IceBreak> and where is mark ? :)
[08:13] <Amaranth> sleeping
[08:13] <Amaranth> even dictators need sleep ;)
[08:13] <IceBreak> what was his nick in the logs?
[08:14] <Tonio_> IceBreak: mark = sabdfl
[08:14] <jordi> well he's not sleeping, I can assure that. :)
[08:14] <Seveas> ok, time for cleaning up in here
[08:14] <JanC> Amaranth: sleeping would be early  ;)
[08:14] <libervisco> IceBreak, sabdfl
[08:14] <yonatan> aw aww awww...
[08:14] <Amaranth> JanC: ah, i don't know what timezone he is in
[08:14] <Xanadu> ta Seveas for chairing (despite numerous bannings ;))
[08:14] <IceBreak> i wanna join his company :)
[08:14] <IceBreak> j/k
[08:14] <yonatan> only just seen that the meeting is now, and it's just finished...
[08:14] <ogra> Amaranth, london
[08:14] <libervisco> hehe
[08:15] <yonatan> is it too late to butt in with my 0.02$
[08:15] <yonatan> ?
[08:15] <ailean> yep :)
[08:15] <Amaranth> yonatan: yes
[08:15] <libervisco> I really like this way of doing things..
[08:15] <yonatan> yea, thought so...
[08:15] <ogra> Xanadu, btw, what gave you the impression edubuntu had planned 2 NIC support ? it was never on the list for dapper
[08:15] <JanC> Amaranth: he's in London, about 19h15 there  ;-)
[08:15] <Xanadu> ogra: wasn't me
[08:15] <ogra> ah, k
[08:15] <Seveas> @unload ChannelRelay
[08:16] <yonatan> ach well, I'll wait for the forums discussion.
[08:16] <Seveas> @part #ubuntu-overflow
[08:16] <Amaranth> Seveas: neat bot
[08:16] <JanC> Amaranth: at least AFAIK ;)
[08:16] <Amaranth> Seveas: custom job?
[08:16] <Amaranth> JanC: i figured he switched a lot, like mako :)
[08:16] <Seveas> Amaranth, supybot with stock and homegrown plugins
[08:16] <JanC> Amaranth: mako is @ MIT...
[08:16] <IceBreak> was there a poll ?
[08:16] <Seveas> Amaranth, the bugtracker is largely homegrown
[08:16] <IceBreak> what was the general mood ?
[08:17] <IceBreak> for postponing or not ?
[08:17] <JanC> (Boston)
[08:17] <Seveas> IceBreak, there was no poll, neither will there be one
[08:17] <highvoltage> IceBreak: wasn't a poll, more of an information gathering
[08:17] <highvoltage> IceBreak: the mood was relaxed and rational
[08:17] <Amaranth> JanC: yeah, but it seems like every time i talk to him he is in a different place
[08:17] <highvoltage> IceBreak: most people feel positive about the meeting, i think it went very well
[08:17] <Seveas> Amaranth, not at all unlikely
[08:17] <Seveas> he's quite a traveller
[08:17] <libervisco> well it's easy to switch from place to place in a private jet ;)
[08:17] <JanC> IceBreak: I think 6 weeks delay for dapper, but dapper+1 on time was the general mood
[08:17] <IceBreak> and most ppl want to postpone it ?
[08:17] <Xanadu> IceBreak: It will be up to the Tech Forum and Community Council
[08:18] <sivang> okay, almost 45 minuts more to hack until next meeting,.
[08:18] <sivang> .
[08:18] <sivang> laters all
[08:18] <yonatan> ciao
[08:18] <highvoltage> IceBreak: i don't think anyone wants to compromise on quality for something that needs to be supported for 5 years
[08:18] <libervisco> woo mass quitting :)
[08:18] <Seveas> good
[08:19] <roshan_> Does anybody know when the CC and TB meetings are? And are they world-readable?
[08:19] <IceBreak> so why support for 5 years ? and whats wrong with patching ?
[08:19] <ogra> roshan_, here
[08:19] <dip|aw> CDs are wrong with patching
[08:19] <Seveas> the TB meeting is NOT meant for reiterating todays community meeting
[08:19] <JanC> roshan_: they are here, but please don't interfere...
[08:19] <Seveas> it is open to watch and participate - but mainly for discussions between developers
[08:19] <roshan_> Only want to observe, but when are they?
[08:20] <giftnudel> look at the topic
[08:20] <Amaranth> TB in 40 minutes
[08:20] <enyc> Seveas: {where is the notes writen / wiki etc. based on logs/from this meeting?
[08:21] <JanC> enyc: notes aren't ready yet I suppose  ;)
[08:21] <Seveas> enyc, not written yet, but will be on DapperDelayMeetingProcess and pages linked from it
[08:21] <Xanadu> http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log for log (includes this morning's meeting)
[08:22] <Seveas> Xanadu, complete logs are linked from the wiki too
[08:22] <Seveas> there's no meeting now - i'd appreciate it if anyone who does not want to participate in the TB meeting later would just leave
[08:43] <Seveas> The TB meeting will begin in ~18 minutes. This meeting is NOT MEANT to repeat suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT
[08:52] <fstat> ?
[08:52] <Cached> Please do not speak in here. It fills up the logs. Thank you.
[08:53] <fstat> and where should I speak?
[08:54] <Cached> #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic, anywhere but here until tb meeting begins
[08:56] <ogra> Cached, that was only relevant between the twoo meetings today ... (but indeed that channel ist for general chatter)
[08:56] <Cached> There is yet another meeting in four minutes, is there not?
[08:56] <mjg59> Tech board
[08:57] <ogra> Cached, yes, a regular TB meeting
[08:57] <Keybuk> TB meeting will be in 3 minutes, take your typing/workrave breaks now :)
[08:58] <Seveas> ogra, Keybuk: I expect lots of offtopicness from unknowing users who stayed after the meeting - should I play 'bad police guy' and mute them so it doesn't interfere with the meeting?
[08:58] <Keybuk> Seveas: please
[08:58] <GFDL> when can I send question to you seveas? after the meeting begins?
[08:58] <Seveas> ok so consider yourself warned everybody - the TB meeting is not for general questions from the community
[08:59] <GFDL> oh!
[08:59] <GFDL> ok
[08:59] <Seveas> if you interfere with the meeting you WILL be muted/banned/pitied by Mr. T
[08:59] <raphink> hehe
[08:59] <Seveas> general questiions can be sent to my via private message
[08:59] <raphink> GFDL: this is a public meeting anyway, so you can stay and watch :)
[08:59] <Cached> it is for input from the community though, is it not?
[08:59] <Seveas> Cached, no
[08:59] <Keybuk> Cached: if items are on the agenda, yes
[08:59] <Keybuk> otherwise no
[09:00] <Seveas> those meetings were earlier today
[09:00] <Keybuk> ok
[09:00] <Keybuk> by my clock, it is now 8pm
[09:00] <GFDL> ok
[09:00] <Cached> So we just get to watch them have all the fun?
[09:00] <Keybuk> sabdfl and mdz are aware today, so I'm driving
[09:00] <Keybuk> mjg59 is here, so we are quorate
[09:00] <mjg59> s/aware/away/
[09:00] <Keybuk> uh, yes
[09:00] <Keybuk> I didn't say my driving was any good :)
[09:00] <raphink> yes it's o'clock now
[09:00] <Keybuk> IMPORTANT NOTE
[09:00] <Keybuk> THIS IS NOT A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE DAPPER DELAY
[09:01] <mjg59> Ok. There's a lot on the agenda. What order are we going to take this in?
[09:01] <Keybuk> If you wanted to attend those meetings, you missed them, sorry;  read the IRC logs and posted summaries to find out what happened
[09:01] <Keybuk> We'll be going down the usual TB agenda, and if your hot topic isn't on there ... *now* ... please wait until the end of the meeting
[09:01] <ogra> wow, sladen owns the agenda
[09:01] <Keybuk> mjg59: top-down I guess
[09:01] <raphink> hehe
[09:01] <Keybuk> unless there is anyone here who has an agenda item and needs to make a fast exit?
[09:02] <Kamion> I'd like to get away soon, but I'm early on the agenda anyway
[09:02] <Keybuk> Kamion: let's do you first then, as I think we have a few candiates today
[09:02] <Keybuk> floor is yours
[09:02] <ogra> i think the first topic is a no brainer
[09:02] <Kamion> "Should we produce new installer and CD images for this [WWW]  serious installer vulnerability? At present, users installing Breezy must make sure to upgrade from -security before adding any other local users, which I think will result in a number of vulnerable systems in practice. On the other hand, it's not as if we can rev shipit CDs at this point."
[09:02] <Kamion> link being http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-262-1, in case anyone somehow managed to miss it
[09:03] <GFDL> Kamion, I wanted to ask that too in todays meeting
[09:03] <Kamion> so, we regained a fair bit of the enormously bad press from the vulnerability by doing a same-day fix
[09:03] <Kamion> a number of people asked whether we'd be making updated images available
[09:04] <Keybuk> Kamion: how much work would it be to make updated images?
[09:04] <Keybuk> I guess only -install matters?
[09:04] <sladen> Kamion: if the CD images are just a rebuild, yes.  If shipit CDs are going to continue being posted through the 6-week extension, yes.  And if not, other people like cheeplinux and private pressers may benefit
[09:04] <Kamion> I chatted briefly to mdz about it, and he said he didn't see a great need, but didn't really clarify why
[09:04] <ogra> Kamion, would be helpful for iso downloaders, dapper is still not stable, so we'd save people from the bug
[09:04] <Kamion> I don't have a good reason not to other than "might be a fair bit of work", which I don't think really cuts it for a problem this serious
[09:04] <mjg59_> Network problems appear at the most inopportune moments
[09:04] <Kamion> frankly
[09:04] <ogra> the prob i see is an out-of-sync with shipit
[09:04] <Kamion> Keybuk: yes, -live isn't affected
[09:05] <ogra> since we wont press new ones
[09:05] <Kamion> ogra: that's a downside, but we can label it clearly
[09:05] <Kamion> Keybuk: there is a certain amount of faff involved
[09:05] <mjg59_> What is the shipit process? Are they actually pressed in large batches, or more on an on-demand basis?
[09:05] <Kamion> if I'm going to fix it properly, we need to somehow get a rebuild of debian-installer into breezy-updates
[09:05] <pitti> Kamion: can't we give the updated CD a new version number?
[09:05] <sladen> Kamion: could you take the previous CD and just hack it with the fixed package, rather than building completely fresh CDs from the archive with all the other updates on them?
[09:05] <minghua> I think releasing a CD with different name (5.10a?) also raise the awareness of said bug
[09:05] <minghua> which is good
[09:05] <Kamion> pitti: that's part of labelling
[09:05] <pitti> Kamion: so that we don't change the original images?
[09:05] <pitti> ah
[09:05] <Kamion> sladen: that's bloody hard work in this case and I won't
[09:05] <ajmitch> Kamion: would it solely be this fix included, or others from breezy-updates?
[09:05] <Keybuk> my gut says that because the vulnerability is in the installer, there's more of a reason to update the CDs than the usual security reasons
[09:06] <Kamion> er, breezy-security not breezy-updates I mean
[09:06] <Kamion> ajmitch: breezy-security, and probably a roll-up of all fixes to date
[09:06] <fooishbar> D
[09:06] <fooishbar> (sorry.)
[09:06] <Kamion> which may not be a bad thing anyway
[09:06] <sladen> Kamion: bloody hard work --- rebuilding the whole CD, or just replacing the broken package?
[09:06] <mjg59_> Kamion: I think from a PR point of view, it would be advantageous to avoid shipping CD images we know to have a major problem
[09:06] <pitti> I got several mails and IRC questions about when we'll release new CDs, so users expect it
[09:06] <mjg59_> The shipit problem is presumably insurmountable, so should just be ignored in this case
[09:06] <Kamion> so, the hard bit is that the correct fix for this problem is spread over a lot of places
[09:07] <Kamion> there are core problems in cdebconf, which I've fixed in d-i svn
[09:07] <Kamion> fixing those also requires rebuilding debian-installer (to update the initrd)
[09:07] <dholbach> if we (or should I say Kamion) was to do this, we could put all securityfixes in to such a release CD - but we didn't really do "security CDs" before, so I don't see the need why we should do it now
[09:07] <mjg59> Keybuk: Should we do the more pressing stuff ahead of the candidate review?
[09:07] <Kamion> initial-passwd-udeb should be fixed to make sure to clear out the password from the database
[09:08] <ogra> dholbach, because the flaw is somewhat bigger ...
[09:08] <Kamion> and prebaseconfig and installation-report need to be changed to make the logs world-unreadable
[09:08] <ogra> and it might get us good press as well ...
[09:08] <pitti> dholbach: well, it leaves a trivial gaping root hole for peopel who install from CDs; it's the worst hole we had so far
[09:08] <Kamion> dholbach: it's harder *not* to include everything else in breezy-security than it is just to include it
[09:08] <mjg59_> Kamion: Are there any especially awkward problems, or is it just something that takes time?
[09:08] <Keybuk> My vote is to update the CDs, I think; it seems prudent
[09:09] <Kamion> sladen: fixes in lots of places, would have to establish a well-publicised source repository somewhere to satisfy GPL etc. - less work to just punt through breezy-security frankly
[09:09] <dholbach> Kamion: I see, then it'd make sense to discuss a security release.
[09:09] <ogra> Keybuk++
[09:09] <sladen> my worry is that the new package set will be larger than the CD size, meaning that you have to drop something and the package set != to the previous Breezy install set
[09:09] <Kamion> I realise we've not done a security CD before, and we hoped we wouldn't have to
[09:09] <Kamion> which is why I brought it up here
[09:09] <Keybuk> Kamion: we may end up doing them for dapper, given its long support cycle; it could be a good test
[09:09] <ogra> yeah
[09:10] <pitti> keybuk was faster with typing, my thought
[09:10] <Kamion> mjg59_: figuring out how to get debian-installer into breezy-security will be the only really hard bit; I may have to talk to cprov and Kinnison for that
[09:10] <zeus> what would be involved in a security cd release ?
[09:10] <Moox> Dapper desktop will be suported during 3 years. Does this mean there will be only security updates on apps and no big update ? (eq gaim 1.5->2.0)
[09:10] <ogra> zeus, mainly Kamion
[09:10] <Keybuk> zeus: Kamion has just covered that
[09:10] <Kamion> zeus: rebuild CDs with packages from breezy + breezy-security, test lots and lots
[09:10] <Keybuk> Moox: that is off topic; please see the Ubuntu wiki for the answer to that question
[09:10] <mjg59_> Kamion: Ok. If this is something that would potentially have to be done in the dapper timeframe /anyway/, it seems reasonable
[09:11] <mjg59> I think security images/scheduling/candidate review/everything else might be a plan
[09:11] <mjg59_> I think I'm with keybuk - it sounds like we ought to do this
[09:11] <Kamion> we're putting in a number of changes now to make this whole class of vulnerability impossible in the future, but obviously I wouldn't like to entirely rule out the possibility of some other serious flaw
[09:11] <Seveas> Kamion, if you need help testing the install CD - poke me
[09:11] <Keybuk> Kamion: are you happy to do it?  Feel free to rope in anyone else to help (including me, given I have all three archs)
[09:11] <mjg59_> Anyone have any violent objections?
[09:11] <Kamion> I'm happy to do the code changes, but given my other responsibilities I will only have time for cursory testing
[09:12] <pitti> I'm happy to help out with testing
[09:12] <ogra> me too
[09:12] <sladen> it's more than a bit embarassing that the CDs going out from the factory still have that hole on them.  We're lucky, if this was Microsoft, they would have to have destoried all the stocked CDs so far and start again
[09:12] <Kamion> sladen: point taken; let me just check sizes
[09:12] <kbrooks> hi.
[09:12] <kbrooks> ping.
[09:12] <Keybuk> sladen: I'll talk to Jane about whether we can replace the ISO images they have
[09:12] <Kamion> sladen: we have between 5MB and 33MB free on CD images, varying by architecture
[09:12] <mjg59_> sladen: That's not entirely true. Windows CDs with critical security flaws have been shipped before
[09:12] <Kamion> in breezy
[09:12] <Keybuk> iirc. ship-it operates in on-demand batches, so it may be possible to do it; I'm not sure when the breezy run stops though
[09:12] <mjg59_> (known critical security flaws)
[09:12] <kbrooks> can someone summarize the meeting for me?
[09:13] <pitti> Kamion: I can't remember any security update that changed the size of the packages *apart* from firefox
[09:13] <Kamion> I think we're probably safe - it seems unlikely that we would manage to suck up 5MB
[09:13] <Kamion> kbrooks: logs are available on the web, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/
[09:13] <Kamion> irclogs/
[09:13] <pitti> right, even ffox 1.0.7->1.0.8 had only trivial changes
[09:13] <raphink> kbrooks: the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[09:13] <sladen> Kamion: excellent.
[09:13] <pitti> erm, -1 on both
[09:13] <Kamion> pitti: ?
[09:13] <mjg59_> Ok. I think we've come to a consensus here.
[09:14] <sladen> pitti: -1 on which and which?
[09:14] <pitti> Kamion: I meant, it was 1.0.6->1.0.7, not 1.0.8
[09:14] <Kamion> ok
[09:14] <pitti> sorry for the confusion
[09:14] <Keybuk> Kamion: you can name the CD version how you see fit :)
[09:14] <mjg59> Kamion: You here?
[09:14] <Kamion> yes
[09:14] <enyc> I would like to wonder the possibilities of ubuntu cds essentially being autogenerated... so they can be autogenerated with 'all secutrity updates relating to apckages in the base install CD'.... ;-)
[09:14] <mjg59_> Kamion: Sorry, my other session has finally caught up
[09:14] <Kamion> enyc: sorry, at present I sit with a magnet building the CD images by hand on a hard disk
[09:15] <raphink> enyc: that means md5sums are not fixed with release then
[09:15] <Keybuk> ok, let's move on
[09:15] <Kamion> takes bloody forever, I can tell you
[09:15] <mjg59_> Right. Dapper rescheduling?
[09:15] <enyc> Kamion: I see I seee ;-)   skay no matter ;-)
[09:15] <Keybuk> so Kamion can go play
[09:15] <XderalteX> Hi, what was the result of the meeting about postponing dapper?
[09:15] <Kamion> ok, thanks guys
[09:15] <Keybuk> mjg59_: I think mdz/sabdfl want to postpone that to a combined meeting with the CC
[09:15] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Ugh. Right. Any idea when?
[09:15] <zeus> Keybuk, CC ??
[09:16] <Kamion> enyc: (in other words, they already are autogenerated)
[09:16] <Keybuk> given neither of them are here, and they haven't yet announced a decision wrt to the delay, I don't see how we can talk about it :)
[09:16] <Keybuk> mjg59_: none
[09:16] <mjg59_> Ok. Candidate review?
[09:16] <Keybuk> "sabdfl fails to turn up for his own agenda item" :)
[09:16] <Kamion> Mark would like the TB to look at freeze scheduling changes for dapper if the delay is accepted
[09:16] <ogra> mjg59_, sladen ?
[09:16] <enyc> Kamion: ok ;-)
[09:16] <Kamion> before the CC/TB combined discussion
[09:16] <Keybuk> sladen: weren't you approved already?
[09:17] <sladen> Keybuk: to the best of my memory, yes
[09:17] <ogra> Keybuk, but not in LP
[09:17] <ogra> it slipped through i guess ...
[09:17] <Kamion> it predated ubuntu-core-dev management in LP
[09:17] <sladen> "somebody dropped lost key"
[09:17] <Keybuk> Kamion: ok, we'll do that after candidates then
[09:18] <Keybuk> raphink: ping?
[09:18] <raphink> pong
[09:18] <raphink> I've got an introduction text on my application here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson#head-afebebcae54ad32367aef6746d6e83eb22da8218
[09:18] <ogra> two liner ?
[09:18] <raphink> to make it short
[09:18] <raphink> I am currently an active MOTU, particularly in Kubuntu. Lately, I have been focusing on fixing bugs and improving the Kubuntu desktop, working actively with AnthonyMercatante as the Kubuntu French MOTU Team (hehe). This implies working with packages in main, and getting them sponsored for upload afterwards.
[09:19] <raphink> There are not that many Kubuntu MOTUs but in order to help the current lack of Kubuntu core-devs I would like to apply for core-dev at this time.
[09:19] <raphink> I cannot be clearer: the main reason why I'm applying is to unblock uploads to main in Kubuntu, because I want Dapper to rock hard!
[09:19] <Keybuk> Riddell: are you here?
[09:19] <Riddell> I support raphink
[09:19] <raphink> :)
[09:19] <Riddell> he's been forwarding me fixes to packages in main
[09:19] <Riddell> and I've been blocking when I've been busy with other stuff
[09:19] <ogra> raphink, are you aware that you can touch *every* package in main then, even the kernel etc ?
[09:20] <raphink> yes ogra
[09:20] <ogra> and do you feel ready to do that ?
[09:20] <Riddell> his fixes rarely need any changes, he's always very thourough
[09:20] <raphink> ogra: I think as the MOTU team leader you know my habbit is to aask questions before doing things I dont know
[09:20] <raphink> I will never release a fix without asking the opinion of other people and testing it
[09:21] <raphink> s/spend/spent/
[09:21] <ogra> raphink, i trust your packaging, dont worry ... i just wanted to point out the big responsibility that comes with main rights
[09:21] <Keybuk> ogra: your tone sounds like you don't support his application?
[09:22] <ogra> Keybuk, i do
[09:22] <raphink> ogra: i'm totally aware of this responsability
[09:22] <raphink> :)
[09:22] <Keybuk> how's his work with MOTU been?
[09:22] <ogra> Keybuk, raphnik has reviewed way more packages than i did before applying for main
[09:22] <raphink> I've been involved in reviewing since before being a MOTU
[09:22] <Keybuk> ok
[09:22] <ogra> he does good packages and givers good suggestions on REVU
[09:23] <ogra> *gives
[09:23] <Keybuk> your application is very thorough, I must say; I've got no questions for you :)
[09:23] <dholbach> yes, he did awesome work, was proactive, helped people out.
[09:23] <Keybuk> mjg59_: any questions?
[09:23] <mjg59_> No, I think I'm happy
[09:23] <Keybuk> ok, let's vote then
[09:23] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[09:23] <mjg59_> Having more work on KDE in main would be good, it's certainly lagging behind in integration
[09:23] <mjg59_> +1
[09:23] <ogra> welcome raphink :)
[09:23] <raphink> :D :D
[09:23] <raphink> tanks guys :)
[09:23] <raphink> thanks
[09:24] <pitti> welcome raphink
[09:24] <Keybuk> I'm assuming Joel Bryan is not here?
[09:24] <Seveas> congratz raphink
[09:24] <RAPIST> so are they going to delay the release?
[09:24] <dholbach> rocknroll, congratulations raphink
[09:24] <sivang> whee!
[09:24] <dholbach> RAPIST: wrong meeting
[09:24] <Surak> congrats raphink
[09:24] <david`bgk> congrats raphink
[09:24] <raphink> thanks Seveas,pitti ogra sivant Surak:)
[09:24] <ogra> :)
[09:24] <freeflying-ibook> congrats raphink
[09:24] <mjg59_> Ok.
[09:24] <raphink> thanks freeflying-ibook && good luck :)
[09:25] <mjg59_> Do we have Joel Bryan?
[09:25] <ogra> desnt look like
[09:25] <dholbach> mjg59_: I'll mail him.
[09:25] <mjg59_> Ok.
[09:25] <mjg59_> MOTU?
[09:25] <crimsun> it doesn't look like he is
[09:25] <mjg59_> Who's new since last time?
[09:25] <ogra> daf ?
[09:25] <mjg59_> daf appears to be missing...
[09:25] <lotusleaf> hi :)
[09:26] <minghua> I am new, I added myself for approval just yesterday :-)
[09:26] <sladen> he was around an hour ago
[09:26] <Kamion> mjg59_: you are ideally placed to hunt him down, surely
[09:26] <mjg59_> Kamion: He's sprinting
[09:26] <sivang> launchpad sprint
[09:26] <sivang> I suppose
[09:27] <Keybuk> minghua: ok, tell us why you'd like to join the MOTU :)
[09:27] <DapperxDrake> so are they going to delay the dapper release or what?
[09:27] <jjesse> some people just don't learn  :)
[09:27] <Seveas> DapperDrake, see /topic - wrong time
[09:27] <minghua> okay, I have been working with other MOTUs for a few months, and I've been doing merges, transitions, bugfixes
[09:28] <minghua> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua, launchpad https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
[09:28] <Kamion> DapperxDrake: barging into meetings and asks off-topic questions is rude. You wouldn't do it in real life, would you?
[09:28] <Keybuk> can you give some examples of the areas you've been working on, and what you'd like to work on next?
[09:28] <Kamion> s/asks/asking/
[09:28] <ogra> dsaa, edmota, jdong, JohnnyMast, minghua, freeflying and jjmmma are the candidates i think
[09:28] <ogra> please speak up if you are here
[09:28] <Seveas> ogra, JohnnyMast - lol....
[09:28] <minghua> I am applying MOTU so that I can upload my fixes directly, mostly for scim related packages
[09:29] <ogra> minghua, you are a DD, right ?
[09:29] <minghua> (but scim is entering main, so I am not so sure), but I still do other bugfixes
[09:29] <pitti> minghua: NB that they are in main now, so even as MOTU you can't do that (but it's the path to main upload privs, right)
[09:29] <minghua> ogra: no, but I am debian (co-)maintainer of quite a few scim packages
[09:30] <dholbach> and I'd be happy to sponsor minghua's uploads, as he always did good work.
[09:30] <Keybuk> ogra, dholbach: do you have anything to add to minghua's application?
[09:30] <minghua> I do plan to apply for DD if that's relevant
[09:30] <ogra> Keybuk, only a ++
[09:30] <crimsun> I've uploaded a dozen or so of minghua's scim & fonts fixes
[09:30] <Amaranth> minghua is the one that got us rolling on making scim work right
[09:30] <minghua> pitti: yes I am aware of that, but one step at a time, I suppose :-)
[09:30] <ogra> he pushed scim forward when there was no team around CJK yet
[09:30] <dholbach> he's considerate, helped out, motivated and was an asset for MOTU wannabes, when they had questions
[09:30] <ogra> mostly on his own
[09:30] <mjg59_> I'm all for anyone who can improve our localisation support
[09:31] <Surak> dholbach, ogra: ++
[09:31] <pitti> I'd welcome minhua
[09:31] <Keybuk> mjg59_: any questions for minghua ?
[09:31] <minghua> and I do plan to post my patches before upload, so other people can comment
[09:31] <minghua> I think that is very important for MOTU to work together
[09:31] <mjg59_> minghua: Is your long term aim to apply for main privileges?
[09:32] <minghua> I am currently subscribed in launchpad for all scim packages I maintain in Debian, and comments on almost every bug received
[09:32] <minghua> mjg59_: now scim is in main, so yes I do plan to apply for main priviledges
[09:33] <mjg59_> minghua: Ok, that's good to know
[09:33] <minghua> I want to take care of scim packages (and in general other CJK l10n related packages, such as fonts) in ubuntu
[09:33] <atie_> BIG support from me for Ming.
[09:33] <ogra> atie_, not only from you ;)
[09:33] <mjg59_> minghua: At some point it would be good to document font issues, so it's easier for people to work this stuff out
[09:33] <mjg59_> But that's not a prerequisite :)
[09:34] <Keybuk> +1 from me
[09:34] <minghua> mjg59_: I think you are aware that bubulle is trying to form an font team in debian, and I defintely will participate in that
[09:34] <minghua> (and communicate/collaborates with MOTUs)
[09:34] <minghua> for the font issues
[09:34] <Chousuke> Is the second meeting over already? what is this conversation about?
[09:35] <mjg59_> minghua: Excellent
[09:35] <dholbach> Chousuke: read the topic
[09:35] <mjg59_> +1 from me
[09:35] <minghua> Chousuke: agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda, and please read topic before asking
[09:35] <ogra> Chousuke,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[09:35] <Keybuk> ok, welcome aboard minghua
[09:35] <dholbach> welcome minghua
[09:35] <ogra> welcome minghua !!
[09:35] <minghua> thanks mjg59_ and Keybuk
[09:35] <ogra> :)
[09:35] <dholbach> I'm happy to see you in the team!
[09:35] <ogra> yeah
[09:35] <ogra> me as well
[09:35] <pitti> great to see you on board, minghua
[09:36] <Keybuk> are any other candidates here today?
[09:36] <mjg59_> freeflying-ibook: Around?
[09:36] <mjg59_> Excellent
[09:36] <minghua> and thanks everyone who showed up for support :-)
[09:36] <mjg59_> Want to introduce yourself?
[09:36] <Seveas> (dholbach and others - I'm being the bad police guy and insta-mute - I also notify in PM so no need to msg the channel more
[09:36] <Seveas> )
[09:36] <freeflying-ibook> I come from China ,my name is Hou ZhengPeng have worked with kubuntu-team for months , and my major work is on Input Method and make ubuntu can support chinese better . And my goal is make ubuntu more friendly to our chinese people , and spread it in china  So I hope I can be a motu , and do more and more for my goal
[09:36] <Surak> minghua: congrats
[09:36] <atie_> congrats! minghua
[09:36] <freeflying-ibook> congrats minghua
[09:37] <ogra> i guess Riddell worked with you on packaging ?
[09:37] <sladen> freeflying-ibook: have you talked to minghua or any of the other people working in a similar area?
[09:37] <Riddell> I support freeflying-ibook, he's been a great help getting cjk support into kubuntu, and has worked on a number of packages
[09:37] <minghua> sladen (and others): freeflying-ibook has been mainly working on the KDE half of the scim related stuff
[09:37] <minghua> which I am not familar with
[09:37] <freeflying-ibook> sladen: ya, i've talked with minghua about scim and also other people ,such as atie_
[09:38] <Riddell> his packages need changed often but he's quick to make fixes and learns fast
[09:38] <Riddell> s/need/needed/
[09:38] <raphink> I was not too happy with freeflying-ibook lately
[09:38] <ogra> Riddell, are you confident he's ready for working alone on universe packages yet
[09:38] <raphink> but I asked him to review a bit to learn more
[09:38] <raphink> and he's been improving quite fast
[09:38] <raphink> in the last week
[09:38] <raphink> and asking good questions
[09:39] <Riddell> ogra: yes, so long as he gets his changelogs proofread for english :)
[09:39] <ogra> heh
[09:39] <ogra> nah, we need to learn chinese ;)
[09:40] <Riddell> that's the alternative
[09:40] <Keybuk> (random)
[09:40] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I want to know your opinion on using launchpad
[09:40] <atie_> he's big help for skim, I support him. :)
[09:40] <Surak> ogra: china is becoming so important than in some years the rest of the world will become irrelevant (I'm studying chinese anyway :-) )
[09:40] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: I'd like to use
[09:40] <ogra> heh
[09:40] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I see that most of your patches aren't posted to launchpad and no malone bugs either
[09:41] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I assume for kde packages you keep good contact with Riddell
[09:41] <Riddell> he does
[09:41] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: if there has bugs, i will attach my patch on
[09:41] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: but for scim package I am subscribed to the packages I am interested in, and you don't send patches there
[09:42] <Keybuk> ogra, dholbach: have you worked with freeflying-ibook much yet?
[09:42] <ogra> nope
[09:42] <ogra> i dont know KDE :)
[09:42] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: for scim , there is seldom patch for it
[09:42] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: for https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scim-pinyin/+bug/34413 you did not
[09:43] <dholbach> Keybuk: I didn't work much with him, sorry.
[09:43] <Amaranth> minghua: i'm not sure this is the right time
[09:43] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: I got your debdiff because I asked you (as Debian upstream maintainer)
[09:43] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: before this uploaded , I mail you debdiff
[09:43] <ogra> Keybuk, i tend to belive Riddell and since he'll break his packages i'm fine with reputation from him :)
[09:43] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: but I would appreciate you do these in a more open way, so more people can get involved
[09:43] <Keybuk> my instinct suggests that freeflying is making good contributions to Ubuntu, and should continue to do so; but isn't yet well acquainted enough with our procedures and systems to formally join the team
[09:44] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: about scim and relate stuff , idon't think now is good time to talk about
[09:44] <Keybuk> would anybody like to disagree with that and raise support?
[09:44] <atie_> minghua, I'd like to see yours and freeflying's efforts coordinated since you need help for KDE part.
[09:44] <minghua> Amaranth: I am hoping he can use launchpad more, because I don't want to read dapper-changes to see a surprise
[09:44] <ogra> Riddell, ?
[09:44] <minghua> atie_: yes, I am trying to figure a way to cooperate with him
[09:45] <Riddell> as I've said, I'm happy with his work for MOTU
[09:45] <Keybuk> mjg59: any questions/comments?
[09:45] <minghua> I am not unhappy with freeflying-ibook's changes to universe
[09:45] <mjg59_> I'd agree with Scott for now. I don't want to see Kubuntu be a poor second cousin in terms of localisation support, but I have a couple of qualms right now
[09:45] <minghua> but as people said, there need to be cooperations, and I currently have problems with cooperating with freeflying-ibook
[09:46] <minghua> I don't necessarily need to care, though
[09:46] <Keybuk> freeflying-ibook: thanks for your contributions so far, please do continue them :)  however we're going to defer you for now.
[09:46] <sladen> minghua: could you work on sponsoring more of freeflying-ibook's uploads on the packages that you look after (if they're in Universe)
[09:46] <Keybuk> freeflying-ibook: please work more closely with other scim maintainers, and the other MOTU; also try to use launchpad more, especially Malone
[09:46] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: actually it's you say that you don't care the main inclusion of scim , so how can i cooperate with y
[09:47] <Keybuk> not in the least because we use Launchpad to see your work
[09:47] <Keybuk> and at the moment your launchpad page shows very little activity
[09:47] <minghua> sladen: pitti said most scim packages are in main now
[09:47] <sladen> flikkeh: you have some excellent unique skills---that few other people here know about, please stick around and keep at it
[09:47] <minghua> sladen: but if he posted other CJK related patches, I would be more than happy to review and upload
[09:48] <sladen> minghua: I'm sure he will be :)
[09:48] <Keybuk> ok, let's move on
[09:48] <Keybuk> jdong doesn't appear to be here
[09:48] <Keybuk> and none of the other candidates are members yet
[09:48] <Keybuk> sladen: I'm not entirely sure what your first agenda item is actually *about*
[09:48] <Keybuk> could you summaries what you'd like us to discuss and decide here?
[09:49] <sladen> Keybuk: first or third?
[09:49] <Keybuk> first
[09:49] <Keybuk> "granted main upload..."
[09:49] <ogra> Keybuk, jdong didnt do *any* packaging with MOTU yet
[09:49] <minghua> freeflying-ibook: also feel free to mail me if you have any patches for packages in universe that you feel not suitable for malone
[09:50] <ogra> Keybuk, being added to the LP team where he was missed out :)
[09:50] <freeflying-ibook> minghua: thx for your advice
[09:50] <sladen> Keybuk: it's irrelevant now, the ticky box in LP has been clicked
[09:50] <mjg59_> sladen: I think that we should avoid discussing the new features stuff until the decision has been made on scheduling
[09:50] <Keybuk> sladen: ok :)
[09:50] <mjg59_> Would you mind if we left that until later?
[09:51] <Keybuk> madwifi-ng is not being held because of lack of time
[09:51] <sladen> mjg59_: it would make sense.  It's dependent on that
[09:51] <Keybuk> it's being held because it flat-out doesn't work on amd64 :-)
[09:51] <mjg59_> Keybuk: The plan is to add it to l-r-m for x86 in any case, but anyway
[09:51] <mjg59_> (Not replacing madwifi)
[09:51] <Keybuk> aye
[09:52] <Keybuk> ok, let's look at that last item
[09:52] <Keybuk> and then go back to Mark's
[09:52] <Seveas> (from the nm-mailinglist: madwifi-ng cvs is quite crackful lately)
[09:52] <Keybuk> sladen: what's the strange behaviour you have noticed?
[09:53] <Keybuk> the most usual thing I notice is either an "0ubuntu1" upload to Ubuntu and a "1" to Debian that are identical
[09:53] <sladen> Keybuk: *blink*?
[09:53] <Keybuk> or a "1" to both with different target distros
[09:53] <Keybuk> sladen: "PaulSladen: Syncs from external repositories. I've noticed a few people doing fake uploads of duplicate packages into order to speed up the development cycle."
[09:53] <ogra> sladen, that was advised
[09:53] <sladen> Keybuk: syching back from Debian is taking a while
[09:53] <dholbach> I suppose he meant 1build1 uploads
[09:53] <ogra> because the LP sync mechanism isnt in place yet
[09:54] <slomo> yes, and it doesn't add a new delta as -Xbuild1 would be automatically synced and overwritten by the autosyncer with -(X+1)
[09:54] <Keybuk> sladen: syncing back from Debian doesn't happen at all right now, unless you have a UVF exception, no?
[09:54] <ogra> XbuildX versions are overridden by autosyncs later
[09:54] <mjg59_> Keybuk: It doesn't happen at all right now
[09:54] <sladen> Keybuk: see note at the end
[09:54] <mjg59_> Even for UVF exceptions
[09:54] <Keybuk> I must admit, I'm completely baffled here
[09:54] <ogra> Keybuk, there was a backlog on elmos side
[09:54] <Keybuk> sladen: could you give us a 1-line summary of the decision required?
[09:55] <sladen> mjg59_: if packages are uploaded to Debian (to save having deltas against upstream)
[09:55] <sladen> s/mjg59_//
[09:55] <ogra> to get that done without LP it was asked that MOTU does XbuildX uploads
[09:55] <sladen> Keybuk: "what do do about syncs from Debian not happening"
[09:55] <mjg59_> sladen: I think the actual problem here is "syncs are not happening", not "it needs to be easier to do syncs"
[09:55] <mjg59_> And the technical board is not in a position to fix the former of these
[09:55] <Keybuk> "easier to do syncs" is a firm Launchpad spec
[09:55] <sladen> Keybuk: when there is a preference to send packages to Upstream---we can't do this if the system is broken
[09:56] <ogra> Keybuk, "do syncs at all"
[09:56] <slomo> mjg59_: but the TB is fine with doing "fakesyncs", i.e. -Xbuild1 uploads?
[09:56] <mjg59_> sladen: And the problem is "the system is broken". That's not what we can solve.
[09:56] <ogra> sladen, where is the system broken ?
[09:56] <Keybuk> syncs are currently somewhere between elmo, launchpad and katie as I understand it
[09:56] <mjg59_> slomo: I would really prefer not to, but in the absence of anything else...
[09:56] <Keybuk> none of which have TB-oversight
[09:56] <ogra> Keybuk, syncs are manually done by MOTU currently ...
[09:57] <ogra> and not for TB, right
[09:57] <Keybuk> sladen: where is the fixed sync system you are proposing we use?
[09:57] <ogra> it was an informal advise to use XbuildX  for now
[09:57] <mjg59_> ogra: No, something that approximates syncs are manually done by MOTU currently
[09:57] <sladen> mjg59_: so what I'm after is guidance about how to cope with the system being broken.  What's the offical workaround?
[09:57] <dholbach> I consider this discussion to be somewhat artificial, all we seem to be doing is determining, that things could work better.
[09:57] <Keybuk> sladen: the official workaround is to do an upload of "XbuildX"
[09:58] <mjg59_> Anyway. I think it's clear we can't really do anything here
[09:58] <Keybuk> indeed.  It's known to be broken.  It's on the list of things to fix.
[09:58] <Keybuk> And there is a workaround which is being used.
[09:58] <mjg59_> So. Hypothetical dapper schedule. Does someone have a link to the current schedule for reference?
[09:58] <minghua> I think sladen want to ask TB to confirm that "-Xbuild1" fakesync uploads are okay for the current situation
[09:59] <Keybuk> http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
[09:59] <Keybuk> ^ is the GNOME 2.15 proposed schedule
[09:59] <minghua> because some MOTUs are still not sure if it's correct to do so
[09:59] <Seveas> mjg59, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
[09:59] <Keybuk> minghua: I don't think there's a TB decision there though; unless there is an argument *not* to do it that way
[10:00] <minghua> Keybuk: good, I have no questions then :-)
[10:00] <Keybuk> hypothetical dapper+6 weeks release would put it on June 1st
[10:00] <sladen> Keybuk: groovy, ta
[10:00] <mjg59_> Right.
[10:00] <mjg59_> Currently we have passed every freeze except beta, string and documentation
[10:00] <mjg59_> Code should only be changing to fix bugs
[10:00] <Nafallo> mjg59: except kernel aswell.
[10:00] <ltibor65_> Who is TB-member here?
[10:01] <mjg59_> Unless there are specific feature goals, I don't think anyone is going to argue that we should lift the current freezes
[10:01] <ogra> hmm, polish might also mean UI changes
[10:01] <Keybuk> given the emphasis on localisation, it actually makes some sense to me to thaw the UI freeze just in case changes need to be made
[10:01] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Ok. UI freeze sounds like a good exception.
[10:01] <Surak> for the translators a reminder: string freeze is scheduled for the day after tomorrow
[10:01] <mjg59_> As another reminder: No decision has been made on the delay as yet. Do not assume that it will happen.
[10:01] <ogra> string freeze might also move i think
[10:02] <mjg59_> The fact that we are discussing this now does not mean that it will happen.
[10:02] <ogra> as well as doc freeze
[10:02] <mjg59_> This discussion is purely to determine what schedule we will follow if the delay /does/ take place
[10:02] <Keybuk> I'd push the entire March block into April
[10:02] <pitti> given that rosetta doesn't yet import everything in dapper, string freeze can certainly slip for one or two weeks
[10:02] <ogra> yeah
[10:02] <Keybuk> so leave us in FeatureFreeze
[10:02] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Keeping the weeks the same? That sounds good.
[10:02] <Keybuk> with a BetaRelease on April 20th
[10:02] <sivang> maybe we'd better wait for when a schedule has been decided? or , at least brought for review?
[10:02] <mjg59_> sivang: We decide the schedule.
[10:02] <sivang> mjg59_: now? :)
[10:02] <mjg59_> Yes.
[10:03] <ogra> theats what we do
[10:03] <pitti> sivang: it's IF delay is done THEN this new plan becomes active, not more
[10:03] <mjg59_> Or rather, we are currently deciding what the schedule will be if the delay takes place.
[10:03] <sivang> pitti: thakns for the clarification.
[10:03] <mjg59_> Keybuk: That's effectively a 4 week delay. Where do the other two weeks go?
[10:03] <ogra> bugfixing ?
[10:03] <pitti> pure bug fixing
[10:03] <ogra> testing
[10:03] <Keybuk> an extra two weeks of Beta test reports
[10:04] <sivang> hardware support bug fixing
[10:04] <mjg59_> Keybuk: Ok. With no string changes or UI changes?
[10:04] <pitti> preferably not
[10:04] <sladen> two weeks -> insert an extra week between each of the last two freezes?
[10:04] <Keybuk> hmm, that's an interesting point
[10:04] <atie_> mjg59, do you have a list of goals for localization and how many days needed for them?
[10:04] <Keybuk> the String and DocString freezes could be placed after Beta
[10:04] <mjg59_> atie_: I don't, no - not really my field, I'm afraid
[10:05] <sivang> sladen: you mean between FF and the UI ones?
[10:05] <Surak> what are the tradeoffs of postponing the string freeze?
[10:05] <ogra> atie_, #ubuntu-i10n (sprint people) might know (but they might be offline by now)
[10:05] <mjg59_> Keybuk: I think we should aim to have the same amount of time between string freeze and final release as we do now
[10:05] <atie_> mjg59, localization maybe factor for schedule, isn't it?
[10:05] <Keybuk> mjg59_: I agree with you
[10:05] <Keybuk> what about UI-freeze?
[10:06] <mjg59_> Keybuk: That is, string freeze should be 6 weeks before final release
[10:06] <sladen> I was thinking between RC and FR.  But actually I think that time should be used earlier so that it can actually be /used/ and not spent sitting around waiting
[10:06] <Keybuk> should that be T-5 weeks or B-1 week?
[10:06] <mjg59_> Keybuk: I think it should be independent of the beta. The length of time is more needed for translation time, right?
[10:06] <mjg59_> Shame Jono isn't here. It would be nice to have his opinion on that.
[10:07] <ogra> but mako was earlier
[10:07] <Keybuk> right
[10:07] <Burgwork> is this something I can answer?
[10:07] <ogra> Burgwork, do you work with them on the book ?
[10:07] <Burgwork> yes
[10:07] <ogra> so give an opinion :)
[10:07] <mjg59_> Ok. I propose string freeze to be April 27th.
[10:08] <mjg59_> Docstringfreeze should be the week after that.
[10:08] <ogra> ++
[10:08] <mjg59_> Translation deadline two weeks after that.
[10:08] <mjg59_> And then release two weeks after that.
[10:08] <Keybuk> right
[10:08] <mjg59_> That is, keep those freezes the same distance away from the release as they are currently scheduled to be.
[10:09] <Keybuk> BetaRelease on April 20th?
[10:09] <mjg59_> Yes, I think making a beta release on April 20th would be good.
[10:09] <Seveas> it should not be called beta
[10:09] <Keybuk> April	6th
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	13th	Beta Freeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	20th	BetaRelease, UserInterfaceFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	27th	StringFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> May	4th	DocumentationStringFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	11th
[10:09] <robotgeek> translation of documentation can only begin after doc string freeze, how does it exactly improve document translation?
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	18th	NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, KernelFreeze
[10:09] <Keybuk> 	25th	ReleaseCandidate, LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
[10:09] <Keybuk> June	1st	FinalRelease
[10:09] <Seveas> it should be a PR boost
[10:09] <mjg59_> Seveas: Naming is not our field.
[10:09] <ogra> Seveas, jdub will rename it properly
[10:09] <Seveas> ogra, I'm scared....
[10:09] <Burgwork> the docteam wants to be mostly frozen for the beta, due to having great testing for that release
[10:09] <ogra> :)
[10:09] <Keybuk> that gives us an extra 5 (not 4) weeks until Beta
[10:10] <Keybuk> and an extra week between Beta and Release
[10:10] <mjg59_> Ok. How many people do we have here from the doc team?
[10:10] <Burgwork> so I would keep the docteam string freeze the same as the beta
[10:11] <mjg59_> robotgeek: How much extra time do you (and the translaters) realistically need?
[10:11] <Nafallo> should we really move the kernel freeze?
[10:11] <atie_> what if beta on April 20th not achieved for localization goals, do we postpone them to dapper+1?
[10:11] <Keybuk> Nafallo: it makes sense for the kernel to be frozen relative to the release
[10:11] <Keybuk> not relative to now
[10:11] <robotgeek> mjg59_: i am quite new to the doc team, i am not sure about translation times. i was hoping someone else could enlighten me on the issue
[10:12] <mjg59_> The kernel freeze is a hard freeze.
[10:12] <Burgwork> mjg59, we are well on track to meeting the current string freeze
[10:12] <mjg59_> Keeping it slushy for bug-fixing is sensible.
[10:12] <Burgwork> even without it being bumped back
[10:12] <mjg59_> Burgwork: Right. So currently we're proposing giving you an extra 4-5 weeks.
[10:12] <Keybuk> Burgwork: that assumes no new input from the localisation work
[10:12] <robotgeek> the only problem is with sutff changing in the UI
[10:12] <mjg59_> What could you do with that time?
[10:12] <Burgwork> cleanup more docs
[10:13] <robotgeek> mjg59_: probably not much. cleanup
[10:13] <Keybuk> what about documentation for espresso?
[10:13] <Burgwork> not yet in place
[10:13] <Burgwork> that is the last major piece we need
[10:13] <Keybuk> is that on track for the current string freeze?
[10:13] <ogra> mjg59_, renaming 6.04 to 6-06 in the docs :)
[10:14] <mjg59_> I think it would be helpful to have a proposal from the doc team on this
[10:14] <Surak> what about internationalization for espresso?
[10:14] <Keybuk> \o/  finally, my version numbering scheme (that I suggested back at the original "version number decision" meeting) is being adopted
[10:14] <Keybuk> (ahem)
[10:14] <Burgwork> mjg59, you want specific information about where we should move the freeze to?
[10:15] <mjg59_> Burgwork: I think this is something that should be decided with more feedback from the doc team
[10:15] <Keybuk> Burgwork: I'm trying to understand what the DocStringFreeze is nailed to
[10:15] <Keybuk> is it "four weeks before Release, because that's how long we need to do it"
[10:15] <mjg59_> If an earlier freeze helps translation, then that's good.
[10:15] <Burgwork> Keybuk, currently the beta freeze, to allow greater testing
[10:15] <Keybuk> or is it "never change Docs after Beta has released" ?
[10:15] <Keybuk> testing of what?
[10:15] <jjesse> and to allow translation
[10:15] <mjg59_> If a later freeze helps the quality of the docs, then that's also good.
[10:15] <robotgeek> Keybuk: i think it has more to do with the UI freeze, cause we have to change stuff if you do
[10:16] <Burgwork> testing to see if the docs are crack and looking for typos, etc.
[10:16] <jjesse> i'm not the best person, but i thought doc freeze occured after UI freeze to help with translations and make sure there aren't major changes to the docs
[10:16] <sladen> Keybuk: that would leave us still in '''UserInterfaceFreeze''' ?
[10:16] <Burgwork> plus allow translation
[10:16] <jjesse> docs don't get uploaded into rosseta until doc freeze (correect me if i'm wrong burgwork)
[10:17] <Burgwork> afaik, that is correct, but I am not the best person to ask about that
[10:17] <Keybuk> Burgwork: DocStringFreeze to me suggests "no more documentation changes"
[10:17] <ogra> Keybuk, oh, yes, your list above had no new date for UI freeze
[10:17] <Keybuk> ogra: does, april 20th
[10:17] <ogra> oh
[10:17] <ogra> sorry, i'm blind
[10:18] <ogra> Keybuk, no text changes, but screenshots etc
[10:18] <Burgwork> we like to keep screenshots to the docteam freeze as well
[10:18] <Keybuk> right, given the changes in localisation and stuff, it makes a bit of sense to me to actually freeze the UI/String/Docs *after* we've already released beta
[10:18] <robotgeek> jjesse: that is correct, no translation before DocStringFreeze
[10:19] <Keybuk> but still with a whole extra week to do the work before release
[10:19] <Burgwork> let me raise the idea on the doc mailing list
[10:19] <mjg59_> Keybuk: I think we should possibly get more feedback from the translators before making a firm decision on this point
[10:19] <Burgwork> as jerome and matthew are the best people to ask about this
[10:19] <robotgeek> mjg59_: +1
[10:20] <mjg59_> Since there is a firm desire for higher quality docs, and that's going to include the translations
[10:20] <ogra> i think we do a rough proposal only ...
[10:20] <ogra> anyway ...
[10:20] <Keybuk> right, I agree with ogra; let's put it forward as a proposal for the TB/CC super-meeting
[10:20] <Keybuk> and make sure the translators and docteam have weighed in
[10:20] <mjg59_> Ok. Let's go with that.
[10:21] <sladen> is it worth budging the Release an extra day to fall at the start of the weekend for mirror loading et al
[10:21] <Keybuk> there's a reason (that I've forgotten) that we do it on Thursday
[10:22] <ogra> someones b-day ?
[10:22] <atie_> most GNOME 2.14 application translations can be uploaded to rosetta independently I think.
[10:22] <ogra> :)
[10:23] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule/Slewed
[10:23] <Keybuk> (thanks sladen)
[10:23] <Keybuk> so that's our proposal for a 6-week-delayed schedule
[10:23] <mjg59_> Any violent objections?
[10:24] <sivang> seems sane
[10:24] <ogra> since its a proposal only ...
[10:24] <enyc> The weeknumbers on that schedule dont make sense ;-)
[10:24] <PierPP> y
[10:24] <Keybuk> enyc: "week numbers" ?  the dates should all be a Thursday
[10:25] <sladen> enyc: any better?  29->33
[10:25] <enyc> sladen: much better ;-)
[10:25] <ogra> heh
[10:25] <PierPP> sweet
[10:25] <Keybuk> ah, heh
[10:25] <mjg59_> Ok. Anything else to do?
[10:25] <Keybuk> Any other business from the floor?
[10:25] <ogra> doesnt look like
[10:26] <enyc> That.. would mean that 6.04 _would_ be there.. as a beta release!
[10:26] <enyc> and 6.05 would be the final
[10:26] <enyc> hrrm
[10:26] <Keybuk> 6-06 as final
[10:26] <enyc> well you can't please everybody _whatever_ you do!
[10:26] <ogra> nope, 6-06
[10:26] <enyc> oh yes
[10:26] <enyc> ;-)
[10:26] <Keybuk> ok, in that case
[10:26] <Keybuk> meeting ajourned
[10:26] <Keybuk> thanks everybody
[10:26] <ogra> yay
[10:26] <Keybuk> the next formal meeting will be in two weeks time (28th)
[10:26] <ogra> thanks Keybuk mjg59_
[10:27] <mjg59_> First person to post that schedule to slashdot gets sworn at
[10:27] <enyc> Well get on with it then ;-)   *good luck nice people* ;-)
[10:27] <Keybuk> there will be an additional meeting to discuss the dapper release before then, there will be a mail (from sabdfl) to announce that
[10:27] <Surak> mjg59_ : :-)
[10:27] <Seveas> mjg59_, just sworn?
[10:27] <atie_> thanks all, bye.
[10:27] <mjg59_> Seveas: I think the CoC would be a stronger issue otherwise
[10:27] <Seveas> mjg59_, do it the slashdot way: anonymous
[10:27] <robotgeek> 6-06? instead of 6.06 ?
[10:28] <PierPP> Ubuntu See'o sex
[10:28] <PierPP> ops =)
[10:28] <mjg59_> robotgeek: Not our decision
[10:28] <Keybuk> robotgeek: there's an increasing consensus to change to a "-" to avoid confusion with people calling it "point four"
[10:28] <Seveas> ok, meeting over - tonight this channel will be locked
[10:28] <Keybuk> it's not a TB decision
[10:28] <robotgeek> i think that's slightly more works for us, lemme double check :)


[04:05] <chrisco97> I am having a bit of a problem.
[04:05] <chrisco97> I am trying to remove the xfce4-power-manager from my panel and it just crashes the panel.
[04:06] <chrisco97> How can I fix this?
[04:12] <holstein> chrisco97: its a tick box, isnt it? anyways.. can you just remove the application? the entire powermanager?
[04:14] <chrisco97> No, there isn't a tickbox. I haven't tried removing the whole power manager but I will try it now.
[04:16] <chrisco97> It worked...thank you so much for the suggestion. :)
[04:16] <chrisco97> Have a good day guys and thanks again for the help holstein
[11:54] <djoi298> so when will the LXpanel in Lubuntu be updated? hasn't an updated version of the panel been in the PPA for over 2.5 years now or something?
[11:56] <leszek> djoi298: really ? Have you tried contacting the maintainer of the lxpanel package ?Or maybe searching the mailinglist. There might be a reason to not switch to the new version
[11:57] <bongma> how do we change our REGISTERED nick on irc?
[11:58] <leszek> bongma: I think this is specific to the irc server. Not sure try searching freenode change registered name or ask in a freenode support channel.
[11:59] <dingus> bongma, try "/join #freenode"
[12:00] <dingus> and ask for help
[12:00] <dingus> I did it two days ago. and I am a happy guy now.
[12:00] <djoi298> bongma, just change your nick and type maybe type something like /msg nickserv register
[13:53] <Duality> hi
[13:54] <Duality> i have this usb audio device which has a option in alsamixer to set for extra base and treble, it used to work find i could adjust the levels like needed, but now when i adjust the levels the sound doesn't change, I have no idea where to look or start in fixing this. any ideas ?
[14:57] <calamari> hi. I created a desktop file for ktorrent and put it in /config/autostart.. works great to load ktorrent on startup. but, is there a way to start an application minimized?
[14:57] <calamari> .config rather
[15:13] <calamari> found something.. http://sourceforge.net/projects/obapps/
[15:18] <Chelsea_Jurgens> Hi, I'm needing some help accessing error logs for apache webserver. it always says permission denied
[15:18] <calamari> awesome, obapps worked perfectly.. I was even able to have it not show up on the taskbar
[19:43] <dingus> hello, why do I always get this message when I connect: "This nickname is registered..."?
[19:44] <dingus> I did register by email on the freenode server.
[19:48] <krytarik> dingus: Support for that kind of stuff is in #freenode.
[19:50] <dingus> krytarik, #freenode, #hexchat and #ubuntu work just fine.
[19:50] <dingus> it is only this channel that post the message.
[19:50] <wxl> where's the message coming from?
[19:51] <dingus> nickserv?
[19:51] <wxl> so then maybe it's not channel based
[19:51] <wxl> are you sure you're authenticated with nickserv?
[19:51] <wxl>  /msg nickserv identify <nick> <password>
[19:52] <wxl> if you believe you have a cloak, it's not applied, which may suggest you are not identified
[19:52] <dingus> when I do "/msg nickserv identify passwd" it is fine. the next time I connect I still get the message
[19:52] <wxl> well, yeah, you need to identify every time you connect
[19:52] <wxl> it's not a forever login
[19:54] <dingus> so if all other channels work fine with the id info from the freenode server. then I only have to identify on #lubuntu. ok
[19:54] <wxl> no you're assuming it does
[19:54] <wxl> joining a channel doesn't encourage nickserv to check your identity
[19:54] <dingus> nope, I know that it works fine on other channels.
[19:54] <wxl> most likely the messages you're getting happen to coincide with the messages from nickserv
[19:55] <wxl> sorry i mean happen to coincide with joining the channel
[19:55] <wxl> or being on the channel
[19:56] <krytarik> dingus:  -NickServ- Last seen : Mar 10 15:13:08 2015 (4h 33m 17s ago)
[19:56] <wxl> https://hexchat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/addons.html#do-at should solve your problem /doat /FreeNode msg nickserv identify <password>
[19:57] <dingus> haha, that was the last time I did the auth thing: "/msg nickserv identify passwd"
[19:58] <wxl> you might also look at this dingus https://hexchat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/faq.html?highlight=nickserv#why-are-channels-joined-before-identifying
[19:59] <dingus> ok, i did the /doat and I am identified
[19:59] <dingus> now i will part and reconnect.
[19:59] <wxl> dingus: you DO have the doat plugin, right?
[20:00] <dingus> doat plugin? I did not add anything to hexchat.
[20:00] <wxl> read the linkk then
[20:00] <dingus> ver 2.9.6
[20:01] <wxl> dingus: maybe you really need help from #hexchat :)
[20:01] <dingus> reconnect test. now
[20:03] <dingus> all is good on #freenode, #hexchat and #ubuntu. I still get the message on this channel. #lubuntu
[20:03] <wxl> dingus: tl;dr it's not from the channel.
[20:03] <dingus> wxl, "tl;dr" ??
[20:04] <wxl> dingus: just seek help at #hexchat. it's not #lubuntu. if they can't help, try #freenode.
[20:04] <dingus> oh, it is a message from the freenode server. maybe I need to auth or something. ty
[20:12] <dingus> it works. I added this to the connect commands for the freenode server: "/msg nickserv nick pass"
[20:12] <dingus> im happy.


[00:17] <ChetManly> !vbox
[00:19] <ChetManly> I see that with 14.04.5 there is a switch in konversation versions is this the same for vbox and other popular apps?
[08:17] <ChetManly> why wont suspend work on m system?
[08:18] <ChetManly> 14.04.5 fresh install
[08:18] <ChetManly> no properitary drivers
[08:20] <Smurphy> ChetManly: How much ram, and how large is the SWAP space ?
[08:21] <ChetManly> 8 gigs and 4 gigs respectively
[08:21] <acheronuk> suspend to RAM?
[08:22] <ChetManly> yes
[08:22] <Smurphy> That's why it can't work. Suspend write the memory to swap.
[08:22] <Smurphy> Ah - suspend to ram. you have to be precise here.
[08:22] <ChetManly> I have a ssd and dont want hibernation writes
[08:23] <ChetManly> plus i dont think kde supports hibernate does it?
[08:23] <acheronuk> What do you mean by "won't work"? It could fail at many points. From no option in first place, to a back screen/crash on attempted resume.
[08:24] <ChetManly> the screen turns off but the computer never stops
[08:24] <ChetManly> I set it in system settings power management, screen will go black but fans never die
[08:25] <ChetManly> the windows install (dual boot) will suspend
[08:26] <Smurphy> Windows is not a reference. Is ACPI configure correctly -> BIOS/UEFI setup?
[08:26] <ChetManly> bios
[08:27] <ChetManly> it only has two states s1 or s3
[08:28] <Smurphy> have you checked the logs on the system? Including kernel ring buffer. Maybe it tells you something on it.
[08:28] <Smurphy> And I suppose you configured the suspend correctly in the system settings?
[08:29] <ChetManly> Smurphy:  i just set it under power
[08:29] <ChetManly> is there other places?
[08:29] <Smurphy> So  you pu suspend session after 10MNinutes?
[08:30] <ChetManly> screen 1 min and system 2 minutes
[08:30] <Smurphy> Well, just tested it here. No problems (Running on a 2012 macmini 6.2 here).
[08:30] <Smurphy> Works out of the box.
[08:31] <ChetManly> this is a asus board of some type
[08:32] <ChetManly> one sec
[08:32] <acheronuk> There are some wiki pages on troubleshooting suspend issues, and always plenty of questions on askubuntu for reference. It could be kernel/hardware/graphics card related, Or windows/secure boot interfering?
[08:32] <ChetManly> well two mins lol
[08:32] <acheronuk> Smurphy: Fine here on Xenial and Yakkety with all my hardware
[08:55] <ChetManly> does it shut off the network card too?
[08:55] <ChetManly> must
[09:10] <ChetManly> so ypur saying that swap needs to be as big as ram to hibenate?
[09:11] <ChetManly> your*
[09:13] <Smurphy> ChetManly: Of course.  The network card may however have WoL active. means that whatever ping goes over the line, or request going to that Mac, will cause the system to wake up.
[09:14] <Smurphy> ChetManly: Yes - for hybernation/suspend to disk, Memory is written to disk.
[09:14] <Smurphy> However, with the speed any linux system boots nowadays when using a SSD - I don't use it.
[09:17] <acheronuk> I always found resume from hibernation to be a bit of a lottery anyway. Too many times it would fail for my liking. Not tried it in a few years though
[09:17] <ChetManly> your  sure its wriiten to swap and not tmp?
[09:19] <ChetManly> ok
[09:21] <ChetManly> sudo aptitude install plasma-widget-quickaccess         where is this in new releases
[09:22] <ChetManly> quick access is the best applet ever made
[09:26] <ChetManly> also where are the options for oxygen in 16.04? I miss the blue shadown active window glow
[09:48] <Smurphy> ChetManly: It is written to SWAP.
[09:49] <ChetManly> yes I read that now thanks for your continued help
[10:09] <alleehol> Searching in Discover (xenial) is it broken? Only here?  Searching vor 'calc' or 'speed' gives no results, but speedcrunch is in list of  popular apps and I could install it.  Any tip how to debug?
[10:11] <soee_> alleehol: i think thisis know bug in current version
[10:16] <alleehol> soee_: Okay. Thx. I install neon dev VM to check if it's fixed upstream
[10:23] <konrados> Morning.
[10:24] <konrados> Don't get me wrong, I love ubuntu, but isn't this a lie: "The leading OS for PC, tablet, phone and cloud | Ubuntu" - this is the title of http://www.ubuntu.com/ page, isn't Windows the leading OS?
[10:25] <soee_> konrados: i'm not sure if this is related to Kubutnu support
[10:29] <konrados> I know it's a bit off topic, but it's quite here soee_  so I thought I may be a bit off topic, but nvm
[10:29] <konrados> *quire quiet right now
 konrados you Irish?
[10:42] <konrados> IrcsomeBot, nope, I'm Polish, why did you think I'm Irish?
 the word quire
[10:42] <konrados> ah, no, it's just a type, IrcsomeBot
[10:43] <konrados> *ehh, a typo, IrcsomeBot :)
 quire/quare means extreme or very
[11:11] <konrados> IrcsomeBot - thanks, didn't know that :)
[11:45] <soee_> clivejo: we Polish people are everywhere -.-
[11:47] <alleehol> soee_: FWIW  search in plasma-discover 5.7.4 in neon dev un/stable works.  So no upstream bug.
[11:48] <soee_> and check  what version kubuntu has :)
[12:12] <Mrokii> Hello. How long does it usually take for the "Driver Manager" to collect system information? I'm only asking because the window only seems to show me the message "Checking Information About Your System", and nothing else happens.
[12:20] <acheronuk> Mrokii:  you may need to run 'sudo apt-get install apt-xapian-index' then 'sudo update-apt-xapian-index' before you run the driver manager
[12:28] <BluesKaj> hiyas all
[12:31] <hazamonzo> Howdy BluesKaj
[12:32] <hazamonzo> Mrokii: I kinda remember the Driver manager could be broken on a recent relase
[12:32] <hazamonzo> I think you can do it via commandline instead though
[12:32] <Mrokii> hazamonzo: Okay, I'll investigate that, thanks.
[12:35] <BluesKaj> Hi hazamonzo
[12:45] <konrados> Hello everyone:)
[12:48] <konrados> I've just installed xenial along with newest KDE, and can't find things... I was on 14.x. Like global keyboard shortcuts, I won't to bind this search tool (F12) to some other shortcuts, where can I find it?
[12:52] <Dragnslcr> konrados- System Settings -> Shortcuts
[12:55] <konrados> sec...
[12:55] <Vacuum_> I am trying to install kubuntu 16.14.1 LTS but after a minut of boot from live dvd, I see a tty1 screen asking me login and password. What should i do?
[13:01] <konrados> Dragnslcr thanks, i found the settings, but this particular one is not there o.O
[13:02] <konrados> I mean I can't find this tool on the list of keyboard shorccuts
[13:10] <konrados> Dragnslcr - found it, thank you!
[13:15] <acheronuk> Vacuum_: Does CTRL+Alt+F7 swich you to a graphical session?
[13:23] <konrados> How to change font size in the taskbar? I'm tried everything in settings->fonts but nothing works.
[13:26] <somekool> I have an icon issues with some applications.. like ksysguard and konsole. when they are not running, I see their icon in my icons-only task manager.. but when they run, the icon is gone... it must be some broken settings... anyone would have an idea where to look ?
[13:27] <pineapplelover> hello How to open a .history file?
[13:28] <pineapplelover> I configured konsole to store the scroll history at /home/user/.cache/konsole but I cannot read those files
[13:33] <Vacuum_> acheronuk:  let me check
[13:49] <pineapplelover> oh I get it! just konsole
[13:49] <pineapplelover> those files are only visible when konsole is running
[13:49] <pineapplelover> visible through konsole heh
[13:54] <Vacuum_> acheronuk:  no mode set worked (it was in f6 options). Thanks!!
[13:54] <pineapplelover> hey how to make the activities panel smaller?
[14:01] <BluesKaj> pineapplelover, how large is it on your desktop?
[14:02] <BluesKaj> also depends how many activity desktops you have
[14:11] <pineapplelover> 10 cm
[14:12] <pineapplelover> and it is vertical
[14:12] <pineapplelover> so I just wanted to squeeze it  so that the text fits perfectly. now there is a lot of spare space
[14:13] <pineapplelover> moreover...
[14:14] <pineapplelover> if I can squeeze it I can make other windows and applications use that space. I like the "remember" feature kubuntu provides
[14:22] <pineapplelover> when I click activities preferences I can set size and position but to the preference tab! and not to the actual activities panel!! grrrr!
[14:27] <BluesKaj> mine takes about 20% of the desktop which ok since i don't use it much
[14:31] <BluesKaj> I have the fav apps associated with an activity desktop in the more actions>special application settings drop down by right clicking on the app tilebar and setting size, postition and activities to the remember setting
[14:33] <pineapplelover> yep...but I cant squeeze it
[14:33] <pineapplelover> I tried that
[14:33] <pineapplelover> remember and setting size to 200
[14:34] <pineapplelover> but it makes a square
[14:36] <pineapplelover> in size there is only one number: 816,65 and the panel is a rectangle.. I would need the other dimension
[14:38] <pineapplelover> oh sorry
[14:38] <pineapplelover> the comma
[14:38] <pineapplelover> heh
[14:38] <pineapplelover> it is not a comma
[14:38] <pineapplelover> but a separation
[14:38] <pineapplelover> between dimensions
[14:39] <pineapplelover> width and heith
[14:41] <pineapplelover> hmmm
[14:41] <pineapplelover> the problem comes when selecting "remember"
[14:42] <pineapplelover> it then turns into a square
[15:19] <user|78958> please help! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/1/view/luth8tvd0mmbs7j/Apps/Shutter/Escritorio%201_004.png
[15:20] <user|78958> I just set activities panel application preferences size force to 500 and now I cannot use the desktop!!!
[15:21] <user|78958> how to reset to default sizes?
[15:21] <user|78958> I am not able to open the preferences anymore
[15:22] <user|78958> desktop main menu activities all is overlapping on a fraction of my desktop now
[15:23] <user|78958> see that huge red dot? it is only the first one of the set in the activities icon!
 can you remove the panel?
[15:56] <user|66254> hello
[15:56] <user|66254> I need help restoring my desktop panels to default: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/1/view/luth8tvd0mmbs7j/Apps/Shutter/Escritorio%201_004.png
[15:57] <user|66254> that post shows what happened after changing and forcing size in special application preferences of the activities panel
[15:57] <user|66254> I cannot get it back to default
[16:01] <SporkWitch> user|66254: should be googleable, but i think those settings should be under "window behaviour" in the main KDE settings
[16:07] <user|66254> SporkWitch: I ll check it out
[16:12] <user|66254> SporkWitch: I found window behaviour but I don't see why that might fix my issue...
[16:12] <SporkWitch> IIRC one of the tabs or submenus in there has the "special window settings" that you've set for various stuff
[16:13] <user|66254> window rules?
[16:13] <SporkWitch> if it's not in that one, keep looking, it's in there somewhere (or was in KDE4; for all i know this is yet another regression in KDE5, it certainly seems full of them)
[16:13] <SporkWitch> that sounds correct
[16:14] <user|66254> yeah I think those are the preferences I added myself
[16:14] <user|66254> I ll remove them
[16:14] <user|66254> kcmshell5?
[16:14] <user|66254> is that the activities panel "technical name"?
[16:15] <SporkWitch> there are no rules by default, so they're all things that you set
[16:15] <user|66254> quassell brought back my menu bar!!!
[16:15] <user|66254> removing that rule
[16:17] <user|66254> I removed them all but still the desktop background....keeps that forced size...
[16:17] <user|66254> I guess that will be fixed closing session
[16:17] <SporkWitch> which is it? the desktop background or the panel?
[16:17] <user|66254> thanks for your help SporkWitch
[16:18] <SporkWitch> you said it was a panel originally; you need to be precise or you're going to get bad advice
[16:18] <user|66254> the background
[16:18] <user|66254> no
[16:18] <SporkWitch> if you're talking about the background, right click, desktop settings, and change the scale/crop/original size dropdown
[16:18] <user|66254> indeed the activities panel has still bad size
[16:18] <SporkWitch> yeah, the panel will be bad size until it's reloaded; the rules determine what happens when you create the window, not what happens to that instance after
[16:19] <user|66254> nope
[16:19] <user|66254> oh
[16:19] <user|66254> I ll close session now and see what happens
[16:24] <pineapplelover_> hey
[16:24] <pineapplelover_> SporkWitch: its me
[16:24] <pineapplelover_> user|66254>
[16:24] <pineapplelover_> fixed!
[16:24] <pineapplelover_> I ll never forget those rules
[16:25] <pineapplelover_> it reminds me windows 2008 server
[16:25] <pineapplelover_> when you stablish rules for the network clients
[16:25] <SporkWitch> pineapplelover_: glad you got it fixed
[16:25] <pineapplelover_> I like kubuntu
[16:25] <pineapplelover_> its fun
[16:25] <pineapplelover_> and thrilling heh
[16:26] <SporkWitch> it's decent; 14.04 was better, but steam started acting up in it, seems to want w/e is in 16.04 now
[16:26] <SporkWitch> LOT of regressions in 16.04, and even more KDE5
[16:26] <pineapplelover_> oh
[16:26] <pineapplelover_> steam?
[16:26] <pineapplelover_> the game platform?
[16:29] <BluesKaj> I have an odd issue on 14.04 with .img files , they show a question mark inside the icons as if they're corrupted or unrecognized
[16:35] <SporkWitch> BluesKaj: sounds like a missing plugin
[16:35] <SporkWitch> or misconfigured mimetype settings
[16:36] <Smurphy> Well - my new old issue is that I can't use the Up/Down keys in kmail mail listing...
[16:36] <BluesKaj> SporkWitch, haven't tried to configure any mime types
[16:38] <SporkWitch> BluesKaj: nonetheless, that's what it sounds like and would be the first things i would check.  just because you didn't change anything doesn't mean that something else didn't mangle it; i'm still stripping the gnome contamination out of one of my machines that some other app pulled down even though it didn't really need them; messed all kinds of defaults up without ever prompting for the change
[16:46] <BluesKaj> it's a recent clean install , wiped the drive clean and installed the iso . there are no ppas or 3rd party packages etc
[16:48] <BluesKaj> googling doesn't bring up anything relevant
[16:50] <BluesKaj> bbl
[17:57] <pineapplelover_> hello how to switch dolphin max min close buttons to the left?
[17:57] <pineapplelover_> sorry not dolphin but quassel
[17:58] <pineapplelover_> oops
[17:58] <pineapplelover_> quassel is this chat
[17:58] <pineapplelover_> I meant dolphin
[18:05] <Zren> pineapplelover_, K => Type "Window Decorations" => Buttons Tab
[18:14] <pineapplelover_> Zren what do you mean K?
[18:16] <Zren> pineapplelover_, I probably should just stick to "Start".
[18:16] <Zren> Essentially, system settings > Windows > Window Decorations
[18:16] <Zren> But it's faster to just search for it
[19:01] <ranu> Hello, trying to install a *.deb file and it seems it doesn't work, as it just says Done but when I try to use the program it isn't found
[19:01] <ranu> The problem is with liblove0_0.10.1ppa1_amd64.
 that's a library package of some sort. It can't run on it's own
[19:17] <pineapplelover_> Zren thanks I found window decorations after a while
[19:18] <pineapplelover_> and got those buttons switched
[19:19] <ranu> acheronuk: my bad, tried with love package and it was successfully installed.
[19:44] <momoe> Hello hello~
[20:03] <momoe> so I did a full update using the ppa's in "backports-landing" and most everything went swimingly so far, except for a few kinks...
[20:04] <momoe> Discover doesn't seem to be working correctly atm, and is plasmoid is spitting out...
[20:04] <momoe> Error loading QML file: file:///usr/share/plasma/plasmoids/org.kde.discovernotifier/contents/ui/main.qml:23:1: module "org.kde.discovernotifier" is not installed
[20:05] <acheronuk> momoe: Yes, the qml dependencies need to be updated for that.
[20:06] <momoe> acheronuk, since I'm still blazing my learning trail here, mind a little one on one through that process?
[20:11] <acheronuk> momoe: I'll find the relevant packages in a bit. tying to talk to several people at once I'm afraid.
[20:12] <momoe> Yes, I'm in no hurry. And thank you for the assist.
[20:16] <acheronuk> momoe: do you have package plasma-discover-updater installed?
[20:16] <momoe> checking now...
[20:17] <momoe> no, I have 'plasma-discover-common'
[20:17] <momoe> correction, I do
[20:21] <acheronuk> hmmmm. I may have to find a Xenial virtual machine. I do not use discover, and it's packages have been moved about a bit on yakkety which is what I run
[20:22] <momoe> Okay, I only used Discover because it was the provided one with this install.
[20:24] <momoe> My original goal was to get KDEConnect v1.0 update which I achieved after some considerable effort. The dependancies were in 'backports-landing'
[20:24] <acheronuk> what I will say, is that I think the landing ppa is may well get an update to 5.7.4 before it's done, which I suspect will sort many of the issues
[20:24] <momoe> *nods* Understood.
[20:25] <acheronuk> we are trying to get Yakkety Yak done at the moment before the beta freeze, so backports are not top priority
[20:26] <momoe> Yes, that's next month IIRC? I figured when 16.10 drops, I'm going to learn how to fresh install of that while hopefully maintaining my home stuff.
[20:27] <acheronuk> plasma 5.8 which *should* be great :) is 1 months away from release as well, so personally I care more about having that backported eventually to xenial. Not my call though, but makes sense to me
[20:29] <acheronuk> Up to you whether you upgrade. if you want the stability of an LTS release, or roll with the newer one that has a shorter support period.
[20:29] <momoe> I've not heard about 5.8 yet, on the RSS feeds, but yes. I think some of the latest and greatest are being comitted to the 17.04 release
[20:30] <momoe> As this is my first real install of a linux OS, I was originally comitted tot he LTS for the stability, but 4 months in and starting to branch out and dabble in these areas.
[20:30] <momoe> As stated, my original goal here was to pull down the KDEConnect v1.0 update.
[20:31] <momoe> I'm hoping that will be in the 16.10 update so when I swing around to a clean install, will be a part of those packages?
[20:35] <acheronuk> momoe: we have several keen users of kdeconnect among the developers, so if not in the main archive for 16.10 it will be available somewhere
[20:37] <momoe> That sounds great! http://i.imgur.com/pMpHefK.jpg
[20:38] <acheronuk> momoe: 5.8 possible features https://paste.kde.org/phjxuirwl
[20:41] <blarge> hey guys.. I have a weird problem (using kxstudios repo)... at one point I turned off wifi and networking via nm-applet, but then the option to reenable wifi disappeared... Therefore my wifi is broken.. Please help! I've tried installing other guis but I cant even see networks that are available. any insights are much appreciated, thanks
[20:48] <momoe> acheronuk, thanks for the assist, I'll keep plugging away at the problem.
[20:48] <mfz> 1
[20:48] <acheronuk> momoe: Sorry, I've got about 3 chats going. lol
[20:49] <acheronuk> I will be around here plenty
[20:49] <momoe> Oh no worries, I know the juggling feeling.