[22:07] <pleia2> doctormo_: did another commit today with the core structure of the course, I still have some fleshing out to do though, should be done soon :)
[22:09] <pleia2> (I would have had it totally done today, but I have excuses!)
[23:43] <doctormo> pleia2: Awesome news!
[23:44] <pleia2> I'm really excited to see BiosElement's course, I had to look back in my logs to figure out some bzr things, and how you go about development in general
[23:44] <pleia2> would be nice to have his courses out there so it's *really* easy for potential course writers to contribute


[00:16] <mamarley> tseliot: I installed your glvnd nvidia-390 driver from the testing PPA and everything seems to work. :)
[04:54] <tjaalton> mamarley: great!
[08:27] <soee> mamarley: ping
[08:43] <tseliot> mamarley: great, thanks for testing
[11:08] <mamarley> soee_: pong
[11:08] <mamarley> tseliot: No problem.
[11:09] <mamarley> Specifically, I tested regular OpenGL, OpenGL ES, and Vulkan, though Vulkan was only with "vulkaninfo" because I don't have any "real" Vulkan applications installed.
[11:22] <soee_> mamarley: on #plasma i was told what using nvidia gpu can cause high memory usage by plasmashell - can you confirm it?
[11:22] <soee_> today after my PC what whoel night on, plasmashell was using trhis moring ~ 1.3GB
[11:23] <mamarley> I've never seen anything like that happen on any of my systems, but I can't say definitively that it isn't because of NVIDIA.
[11:49] <mamarley> When we put a GLVND-enabled 390 driver in the PPA, we are also going to need to add additional transitional packages to make sure people on the existing nvidia-390 package in the PPA get updated properly.
[11:59] <tseliot> yes, that should be easy to add


[10:27] <sladen> https://ubuntu.optimalworkshop.com/optimalsort/ubuntuia <-- help wanted.  Should take about 15 minutes to fill out
[10:36] <czajkowski> sladen: oh interesting
[15:55] <Omega> sladen: The examples were off-putting "smoked bacon", "raw salmon".
[15:55] <sladen> Omega: groovy.  Eh, what's the context (I'm guessing Fedora naming?)
[15:57] <sladen> Omega: ahhh, on the example in the card sort.
[15:57] <sladen> Omega: I confuse that I hadn't looked in detail
[15:57] <sladen> confess
[15:57] <sladen> Omega: but as a vegetarian, I'm inclined to agree
[16:00] <Omega> sladen: Hopefully the next will have less gruesome examples :)
[16:03] <sladen> Omega: perhaps I can encourage you to skip the example, and go straight to be main course
[16:03] <sladen> Omega: which has real-world pages on the Ubuntu website that need categorising
[16:11] <Omega> sladen: I tried but it said that I didn't have flash.
[16:18] <sladen> Omega: thank you for trying.
[16:19] <Omega> sladen: Because you have been so nice to me, I shall do my best to get this working.
[16:21] <Omega> sladen: Alright, I have it working, now I shall complete it.
[16:30] <Omega> sladen: What is meant with "Verticles"?
[16:31] <Omega> Verticals*
[16:31]  * Omega blushes
[16:45] <sladen> Omega: perhaps stick it in group called "don't understand"
[16:45] <sladen> Omega: because if it is not understandable/findable, then that page is somewhat useless
[16:46] <sladen> Omega: there's no reason to blush.  The exercise is about making the Ubuntu.com site better in the long-run.  And for every person such as you (or I) that don't understand that terms, there will be 10 others who spotted it and didn't want to say
[16:47] <sladen> Omega: 100 others who spotted it and didn't know how to say.  1000 others who spotted it and didn't know, and 10,000 others who just didn't understand it either


[00:02] <desrt> robert_ancell: i love that you use automake for easybuild :)
[00:02] <robert_ancell> desrt, no, the latest version uses make to bootstrap itself
[00:02] <desrt> so maybe i am looking at something oldschool
[00:02] <desrt> revno: 119
[00:02] <desrt> timestamp: Sat 2011-10-01 18:17:36 +1000
[00:02] <desrt> message: Install a python script
[00:03] <robert_ancell> fixed in 120 :)
[00:03] <desrt> where is the latest rev?
[00:03]  * desrt branched lp:easy-build
[00:03] <robert_ancell> I'm 128 here, I need to tidy it up and push
[00:03] <desrt> dude!
[00:04] <desrt> laptops get stolen
[00:04] <robert_ancell> that is correct, but the next push should be to lp:bake
[00:04] <desrt> push early & often!
[00:04] <desrt> still no better name, hm?
[00:08] <robert_ancell> desrt, lp:~robert-ancell/easy-build/wip (don't know how stable it is)
[00:08] <robert_ancell> desrt, I thought you liked bake?
[00:09] <desrt> i like it more than easybuild :)
[00:10] <desrt> i was pushing for something more distinct
[00:10] <desrt> and i thought that ancell wasn't such a bad name :p
[00:10] <robert_ancell> desrt, suggestions welcome
[00:11] <robert_ancell> It has no intuitive meaning
[00:11] <desrt> exactly
[00:11] <desrt> that's a positive feature in my opinion
[00:12] <robert_ancell> desrt, how is GMenu going?  Can we get it into gnome-games now?
[00:12] <desrt> robert_ancell: i hope to land it this week
[00:12] <desrt> mclasen has a working demo of gnome-shell integration already
[00:14] <robert_ancell> desrt, cool.  Who is going to do the Unity patch?  I just want to wait until I'm sure the games can be visible in both shells
[00:15] <desrt> robert_ancell: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=621203
[00:15] <ubot2> Gnome bug 621203 in general "GtkApplication support work" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
[00:19] <desrt> robert_ancell: i guess i'll probably do it eventually
[00:20] <desrt> there's some other blocking stuff first, of course
[00:24] <robert_ancell> desrt, with GMenu can an application detect if something is consuming it?
[00:24] <robert_ancell> (and fallback if not)
[00:24] <desrt> yes and no
[00:24] <desrt> short answer: of course it can
[00:25] <desrt> other short answer: but the API doesn't really make it easy, because you're not expected to deal with it that way
[00:25] <robert_ancell> desrt, talking to phomes (gnome games maintainer) now about GMenu.  We'd like to use it asap, but we need a migration solution
[00:26] <desrt> robert_ancell: i think what will happen is that there will be some sort of menu 'personality' module that gtk loads to decide what to do
[00:32] <smspillaz> desrt: hah!
[00:32] <smspillaz> (re: signing)
[00:32] <TheMuso> desrt: Does the scope of GMenu allow for menu items that have dynamically changing/changeable icons? If so, is there a mechanism to set an alternative textual description for that meny item?
[00:32] <desrt> TheMuso: no.  not presently.
[00:33] <TheMuso> Ok.
[01:09] <desrt> smspillaz: if i were to give some guidelines i'd say to use unsigned types for higher level things (like dbus APIs) and use signed integer types on C APIs with very early g_return_if_fail to check for positiveness and good docs
[01:15] <smspillaz> nah, it was more like. I'm used to using unsigned int for return codes (X11), and I'm working with kernel stuff where 0 is success and - is fail
[01:15] <smspillaz> also, this kernel API for handling vblank events is really ... dumb
[01:16] <smspillaz> I'm really suprised it uses callbacks rather than just giving you an fd that it writes to whenever there's a vblank
[01:16] <desrt> doesn't it sample the monotonic time at which the event occured and communicate that to userspace?
[01:16] <desrt> uh?
[01:16] <smspillaz> well rather, the callback isn't mandatory, its just that you have to register for a new vblank event every single time you get one
[01:16] <desrt> non-signal callbacks from the kernel?
[01:16] <smspillaz> so you pretty much have to use the callback
[01:17] <smspillaz> desrt: its an ioctl which calls back into a user defined function
[01:17] <desrt> please tell me this is something that only the nvidia driver does
[01:18] <smspillaz> desrt: its libdrm
[01:18] <desrt> i'm positively terrified that this was ever merged into the kernel
[01:18] <smspillaz> but since you asked, its probably only the nvidia driver ;-) since I'm running an nvidia card and clearly if I used nouveau my GPU would have exploded by now
[01:19] <smspillaz> even though it says I'm running nouveau
[01:19] <smspillaz> but that's a minor detail ;-)
[01:19] <desrt> callbacks into userspace frighten me
[01:20] <desrt> signals included
[01:20] <smspillaz> desrt: I mean, what its probably doing is that the library has some internal fd which it gets events on and then the actual userspace loaded libdrm calls back into a userdefined function
[01:20] <smspillaz> I don't think the kernel is calling my code ;-)
[01:21] <desrt> oh
[01:21] <desrt> okay
[01:21] <desrt> i'm less terrified, then!
[01:21] <smspillaz> desrt: this system however, is annoying since libGL implement vsync by having a function that just blocks until a vsync, which is kind of what this module I'm testing wants
[01:22] <desrt> THREADS!
[01:22] <smspillaz> so now instead of that I'm doing this like, really awkward things with event handelr threads
[01:22] <smspillaz> you got it :p
[01:23] <smspillaz> desrt: what really disappoints me is that what was supposed to be one hour of writing tests for someone elses bugfix has turned into a 1 day hackathon with drm
[01:23] <smspillaz> that's slightly typical of all the coding work I do sadly :(
[01:24] <RAOF> smspillaz: How it works in X is that drmHandleEvent is added as the callback function on the drm fd.
[01:24]  * desrt watches another compiz maintainer grow up and get annoyed
[01:25] <smspillaz> desrt: of course, what infuriates me is that libdrm is yet another library that uses enum bitfields which you can't use in C++ unless you make a wrapper function and compile it as a C file :(
[01:25] <smspillaz> desrt: oh, that happened a long time a go
[01:25] <smspillaz> desrt: a LONNNNNNNNNNNNG time ago
[01:25] <smspillaz> desrt: I had no childhood
[01:25] <smspillaz> RAOF: right, although you need to use the callback to queue another vblank
[01:26] <smspillaz> (event)
[01:26] <RAOF> Indeed, because it's a one-shot affair.
[01:26] <smspillaz> you could say I've had many affairs with the graphics stack
[01:27] <desrt> *rimshot*
[01:28] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Hi again, just submitted an upstream MP.
[01:28] <robert_ancell> GunnarHj, cool, thanks
[01:30] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Can you apply a new upstream release in Ubuntu right now, so we can test it?
[01:31] <robert_ancell> GunnarHj, not sure what you mean?
[01:31] <robert_ancell> into precise?
[01:31] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Yes.
[01:31] <RAOF> You know one of the (many) nice things about C#?  out paramenters must be explicitly marked.  None of this GetTextExtent(width, height) magically altering the values of width and height.
[01:31] <robert_ancell> yes, but not by today
[01:31] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Ok.
[01:32] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Do you have access to upload to oneiric-proposed?
[01:32] <robert_ancell> GunnarHj, yes
[01:33] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: It would be great if you could merge the other branch then, so we can start the Oneiric SRU.
[01:34] <BillyZ> I have a simple question, how do I bring up the classic desktop in ubuntu 11:10?
[01:35] <robert_ancell> GunnarHj, yeah, good point.  I'll merge the changes and upload to precise and we can test it there
[01:35] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Ok, great.
[01:38] <BillyZ> OK, I did something wrong or this is the wrong room.
[01:49] <robert_ancell> GunnarHj, ok, uploaded to precise
[01:55] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: Thanks! Even if I have tested that branch already, I'll do it again to be sure. So, disconnecting again...
[01:59] <smspillaz> woohoo its working
[02:01] <smspillaz> desrt: hellyeah
[02:01] <smspillaz> THREAD
[02:01] <smspillaz> S
[02:17] <smspillaz> RAOF: https://code.launchpad.net/~smspillaz/compiz-core/compiz-core.fix_880707.2.test/+merge/82961 in case you're interested
[02:21] <davidvip> hello all
[02:21] <davidvip> i need some help to troubleshoot my video problem using intel-graphics
[02:22] <davidvip> if i leave the machine running on long hours i might end up the entire desktop freeze and the display like this video i capture http://youtu.be/KxevkWbpWzM
[02:24] <davidvip> thank u first
[02:26] <GunnarHj> robert_ancell: The amd64 build of 1.0.6-0ubuntu4 tested successfully.
[02:40] <smspillaz> if you get a chance to coukd you run it? its plugins/composite/tests/compiz_paintscheduler_test
[02:40] <smspillaz> oops
[02:55] <TheMuso> Wow, notify-osd has a *lot* of tests.
[05:32] <pitti> Good morning
[05:33] <RAOF> Heya pitti.
[06:50] <didrocks> good morning
[08:14] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[08:14] <pitti> hey chrisccoulson
[08:14] <chrisccoulson> hi pitti, how are you?
[08:15] <pitti> a bit tired, but otherwise well; how is your flu?
[08:15] <chrisccoulson> pitti - it's getting better, but my daughter is ill now
[08:15] <chrisccoulson> she has an ear infection too :(
[08:15] <didrocks> good morning chrisccoulson
[08:15] <didrocks> guten morgen pitti
[08:15] <chrisccoulson> hi didrocks
[08:20] <pitti> chrisccoulson: argh
[08:20] <pitti> hey didrocks!
[08:23] <hrw> heh. unity/3d plays a game with me. game name is 'guess where your windows went' ;(
[08:23] <glatzor> morning guys
[08:23] <pitti> hey glatzor
[08:23] <glatzor> mvo, apt_pkg.Acquire() seems to hate me ...
[08:24] <mvo> hey glatzor!
[08:24] <mvo> glatzor: its not very picky, it hates everyone ;)
[08:24] <mvo> glatzor: what is the problem?
[08:24] <glatzor> mvo,  I was working on separating the downloader/installer/cache modifier without using threads but it results in glibc segfaults
[08:24] <glatzor> mvo http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/745631/
[08:25] <glatzor> mvo, lp:~aptdaemon-developers/aptdaemon/separation
[08:26] <glatzor> mvo, you can just run sudo ./aptd -td --replace and download a package
[08:27]  * mvo gets the branch
[08:27] <glatzor> "Warten auf Kopfzeile" seems to be a quite strange name for a package file :)
[08:29] <mvo> glatzor: what do I need to do to crash it? install a pkg?
[08:29] <mvo> aha
[08:30] <mvo> apparently yes :)
[08:31] <glatzor> mvo, you have to install a package which is not yet downloaded
[08:31] <glatzor> mvo, I normally use the cw package
[08:32] <mvo> glatzor: I use that too most of the time, or 2vcard. I need to find out what cw is actually doing ;)
[08:34] <glatzor> mvo, it is a quite useful tool! you can send morse signals using your laptop speakers!
[08:34] <mvo> lol
[08:34] <mvo> awsome
[08:34] <glatzor> mvo, imagine your airplane crashed and the only thing left is your laptop with - lucky guy - cw installed
[08:35] <mvo> heh :)
[08:36] <mvo> I have the crash, its deep in libapt it seems, I build a debug version quickly
[08:40] <rodrigo__> morning
[08:40] <mvo> glatzor: hm, hm, it crashes on various places, really odd
[08:46] <mvo> glatzor: that looks like memory corruption, are two threads writing to the same resouce or something like this maybe?
[08:46] <mvo> glatzor: the crash is consistenly in pkgAcquireArchive::Done, but it looks like on different spots there
[08:48] <mvo> glatzor: hm, actually - it seems like its StoreFilename that is passed by reference, is python maybe releaseing this reference somewhere? let me look at the aptd code
[08:51] <glatzor> mvo, threads aren't used by aptd - only by libapt
[08:58] <mvo> glatzor: http://paste.ubuntu.com/745690/plain/ <- this will fix it, its rather silly, but the reference to the storefilename is kept in packagemanager and when that goes out of scope the reference breaks, I will propose a fix in libapt for this
[08:58] <mvo> glatzor: but for now, this works
[09:01] <glatzor> mvo, ah ok. so keep the pm alive by also moving it to the AptDownloader?
[09:03] <glatzor> mvo, thanks
[09:06] <glatzor> mvo, since you are going to touch libapt ... It would be nice to access the Acquire instance of UpdateLists
[09:06] <glatzor> from within python-apt
[09:11] <glatzor> mvo, who could I talk to about porting unity to packagekit?
[09:12] <mvo> glatzor: the unity system indicator that talks about updates? ronoc iirc
[09:12] <mvo> glatzor: I guess you would want to pass your own pkgAcquire object into ListUpdate, right?
[09:12] <Sweetshark> pitti: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11456902#post11456902 and I ran some quick tests on my machine. enough verification?
[09:12] <pitti> Sweetshark: yes, thanks for this; I moved it to -updates
[09:13] <pitti> seb128: bonjour
[09:13] <seb128> hey pitti, how are you?
[09:13] <pitti> seb128: FYI, I'm merging gtk+3.0 and also want to port the multi-arch-ification from 2.0
[09:14] <seb128> oh, yeah you  \o/
[09:14] <pitti> seb128: bit of a headache, but good otherwise, thanks! how are you?
[09:14] <micahg> pitti: I thought we were requiring dev release uploads for SRUs
[09:14] <glatzor> mvo, right I would like to use my own one
[09:14] <seb128> I'm fine thanks, trying to wake up a bit earlier but I'm having a difficult time to readjust my sleep cycle, I'm on a go to bed late, sleep late cycle ;-)
[09:15] <pitti> seb128: I just committed some stuff to Debian, too; now our delta is down to 7 patches and some extra symbols
[09:15] <seb128> still quite some diff but that's getting better
[09:15] <seb128> ideally we could go down to the appmenu and scrollbar patches?
[09:15] <pitti> micahg: we do; you mean for LibO? that was discussed with cjwatson yesterday, we indeed need an urgent LibO upload to precise; should land in a week or so
[09:16] <micahg> pitti: I don't understand why it wasn't uploaded there in the first place though
[09:17] <pitti> not sure; Sweetshark, does it currently build in precise? there's been quite some java reorg in precise
[09:17] <seb128> is there a point for the unstable serie upload out of making sure we don't forget to land the fix there?
[09:18] <pitti> seb128: yes, there is: building against current library ABIs and toolchain
[09:18] <didrocks> hey seb128, how are you?
[09:18] <pitti> e. g. LibO now how depends on several NBS packages
[09:18] <micahg> pitti: in fact, since we're keeping the dev release usable, it would seem to be more imperative to have SRUs like this in precise first (although this was the only shot for LibO since the next upload is for 3.5.0)
[09:18] <seb128> pitti, sorry I was not speaking about pocket copy, but is there any need to block srus because the unstable update is a bit longer to come (i.e for GNOME we might track another serie)
[09:19] <pitti> seb128: mostly as a matter of discipline and not forgetting about fixes
[09:19] <seb128> ok, I've blocked a few srus because I'm on Oneiric still, I could do and test them but I can't test on precise yet
[09:20] <seb128> it's not the end of the world but a bit annoying
[09:20] <pitti> seb128: you can certainly test whether they build, and we can test packages in PPA for you :)
[09:20] <pitti> and if it's just a patch, then "works in oneiric" + "builds in precise" is pretty safe IMHO
[09:20] <seb128> pitti, yeah, I'm doing that, I hit a few toolchain difference bugs yesterday though where things were building on oneiric for me but not in precise after upload ;-)
[09:21] <seb128> well anyway it's minor, it's about time I get a precise build environment anyway I think ;-)
[09:21] <pitti> or upgrade, and get an oneiric VM or keep your netbook on oneiric?
[09:21]  * pitti has an oneiric kvm now
[09:22] <seb128> pitti, yeah, I will upgrade soon now
[09:22] <pitti> kvm is quite nice anyway, as you can keep a clean install and do tests with -snapshot
[09:22] <seb128> I'm pretty much done with Oneiric srus and testing
[09:22] <baptistemm> hi there
[09:22] <seb128> pitti, is kvm running unity-3d?
[09:22] <pitti> seb128: ah, no
[09:22] <pitti> that'd be the mini 10 then
[09:22] <seb128> pitti, indeed ;-)
[09:22] <pitti> or my wife's workstation :)
[09:22] <seb128> baptistemm, hey, how are you? long time not seen!
[09:23] <baptistemm> seb128: fine, I just went back from jdll where I seen didrocks and I said to myself, would be nice to stay here to have a look of what ubuntu is doing :)
[09:24] <seb128> ;-)
[09:24] <micahg> Sweetshark: BTW, another reason to do a precise upload now is to see if there is breakage w/the new toolchain in precise and get it fixed upstream for 3.5.0b0
[09:24] <didrocks> baptistemm: \o/
[09:24] <seb128> baptistemm, you are an happy fedora users nowadays right? ;-)
[09:24] <baptistemm> seb128: actually not taht much
[09:30] <chrisccoulson> hi seb128
[09:30] <seb128> hey chrisccoulson, how are you?
[09:31] <chrisccoulson> seb128, yeah, good thanks. and you?
[09:31] <seb128> quite good, thanks ;-)
[09:38] <seb128> rodrigo_, hey
[09:38] <seb128> rodrigo_, there?
[09:38] <rodrigo_> hi seb128
[09:39] <seb128> rodrigo_, could you look at bug #876839 we have some unhappy users there that claim that proxy use is still broken in 11.10
[09:39] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 876839 in gnome-control-center "Proxy GUI in 11.10 does not configure socks proxy for HTTP traffic" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876839
[09:39] <rodrigo_> seb128, ok
[09:40] <seb128> rodrigo_, your ubuntu-system-services sru to fix the proxies also failed verification on one of the 2 bugs and didn't reach updates
[09:40] <seb128> rodrigo_, could you try to check on that? it could be that they just didn't get the update because they don't use proposed and it never reach updates
[09:40] <seb128> rodrigo_, would be nice to review the bug which failed verification and sort it
[09:41] <seb128> rodrigo_, thanks!
[09:41] <rodrigo_> ok
[09:41] <rodrigo_> seb128, hmm, have the numbers for those 2 u-s-s bugs at hand?
[09:42] <seb128> rodrigo_, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+source/ubuntu-system-service/<IP_ADDRESS>
[09:42] <seb128> they are there ;-)
[09:42] <seb128> the second one is the one which failed verification
[09:45] <rodrigo_> ok, it sets the proxy in all files under /etc/apt
[09:45]  * rodrigo_ looks for a fix
[09:49] <seb128> rodrigo_, thanks ;-)
[09:49] <seb128> (oh, didrocks resumed merge request email spamming)
[09:50] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, last testing on the project, seems everything is ready for deployement
[09:50] <seb128> didrocks, great to read ;-)
[09:50] <didrocks> the new reject message is way more descriptive: https://code.launchpad.net/~didrocks/unity-merger-test/foo10/+merge/82991
[09:51] <didrocks> (the exit 1 in the job was done on purpose)
[09:51] <seb128> didrocks, I kind of got used to the sdfnsdfjs commit text ;-)
[09:51] <didrocks> seb128: come on, the last two ones have very real ones :)
[09:52] <seb128> indeed ;-)
[09:53] <didrocks> oh weird, it's my user now posting the reject
[09:53] <didrocks> not unity merger
[09:53] <didrocks> what happened on the server? :/
[09:53]  * ogra_ wonders if we'll ever manage to make g-s-d being the last and not the first app to be killed on logout
[09:54] <seb128> ogra_, shouldn't matter if we manage to kick in plymouth or lightdm or something over the screen before closing the sesison
[09:54] <ogra_> ah, yeah, thats indeed an option
[09:54] <seb128> that's what was suggested at UDS I think
[09:55] <ogra_> i was just rebooting after an upgrade and was wondering, i think thats happening since warty for me :)
[09:55] <ogra_> and i'm actually wondering why that was never attacked as a papercut, i mean its really visible to everyone ,,,
[09:56] <seb128> oh, to that I can reply: too much to do, not enough people
[09:56] <seb128> ;-)
[09:56] <ogra_> oh, i didnt realize papercuts are done by the desktop team
[09:57] <ogra_> i thought that was a community patch effort
[09:57] <seb128> it sort of was, it's not very active recently, we got a few patches for them but they were mostly raising issues and making some noise around them to get upstream or us to fix those
[09:58] <seb128> for them->from them
[09:58] <ogra_> ah, i saw some sessions on the UDS schedule, i thoguht it was still active
[09:58] <seb128> they are speaking about refocussing a bit on it I think but in practice there was no push nor blog no anything around papercuts for some cycles
[09:59] <ogra_> sad
[09:59] <seb128> same story that bootspeed and others
[09:59] <ogra_> yep
[09:59] <broder> i got the impression that papercuts tended to get a lot of pushback from upstreams
[09:59] <ogra_> well, we have a rolling bootspeed thing going on in arm
[09:59] <seb128> small group of motivated people and lot of things to do, so the focus move from one subproject to the other one
[10:00] <ogra_> which sometimes also helps non-arm :)
[10:00] <ogra_> (like the dropping of initrd in precise)
[10:00] <seb128> we don't manage to attract enough new people to get those projects rolling when the main driver are busy on another focus
[10:00] <ogra_> but indeed thats not as good as having a big community looking into it
[10:01] <ogra_> yeah, community requires leadership it seems
[10:07] <Sweetshark> micahg: heh, the impact of something breaking because of a oneiric->precise toolchain update is linenoise vs. the changes between 3.4 and 3.5
[10:08] <micahg> Sweetshark: indeed, but I would think the bulk of the code is still the same so a build of 3.4.x on precise would raise most of the issues you might find in 3.5.x
[10:15]  * pitti reminds didrocks or seb128 to remind him about the meeting reminder
[10:15] <seb128> pitti, oh, good reminding!
[10:15] <seb128> ;-)
[10:16] <seb128> pitti, it's meeting reminder day!
[10:17] <didrocks> all this about reminding… ;)
[10:18]  * pitti nags didrocks to review https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-quickly
[10:19] <didrocks> I did that, isn't it?
[10:19]  * didrocks opens again
[10:20] <didrocks> hum, I changed the text description and click on approval yeasterday, I'm sure of it
[10:20] <didrocks> seems that only refactoring the text is saved…
[10:20] <didrocks> putting as approved again then
[10:20] <pitti> hm, click harder?
[10:20] <pitti> didrocks: nice, thanks!
[10:20] <didrocks> pitti: now?  :)
[10:20] <pitti> didrocks: nope, still "pending approval" here
[10:20] <didrocks> yw, thanks for the reminder of checking again
[10:20] <didrocks> urgh
[10:20] <pitti> didrocks: want me to try?
[10:21] <didrocks> I clearly see "approved" there
[10:21] <didrocks> pitti: yes please
[10:21] <pitti> ah, seems it was just lagging, fine now
[10:21] <didrocks> I changed the text and did what was needed
[10:21] <didrocks> ok, seems to be quite laggy, maybe it timeouted without me noticing yesterday
[10:43] <pitti> so, multi-arch gtk3 seems to behave
[10:43] <pitti> don't want to upload to Debian yet to not break the testing migration, but I'll merge to svn head
[10:45] <micahg> pitti: experimental?
[10:46] <pitti> micahg: too lazy to create a new svn branch etc., and not urgent either
[10:46] <micahg> heh
[10:49] <zyga_> hi, is this bug known: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/85681235/unity-window-title-ellipsis-transparency-bug.png
[10:50] <zyga_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/893529
[10:50] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 893529 in unity "Window title ellipsis (when text does not fit) is oddly transparent" [Undecided,New]
[10:54] <rodrigo_> have an appointment for a much needed haircut, so bbiab :)
[11:01] <mvo> so in unity - if I use alt-f2 and type a command I very often get my previous command when pressing enter (and not waiting until unity has caught up). do other people see this too?
[11:03] <didrocks> mvo: yeah, it's a known bug if you type too fast
[11:03] <didrocks> mvo: mhr3_ was working on it
[11:07] <seb128> mvo, bug #856205
[11:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 856205 in unity "run the wrong command if enter is hit before the view is refreshed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/856205
[11:07] <seb128> there is a merge request waiting for review
[11:07] <seb128> kamstrup and mhr3_ should probably trade reviews for what they do or something ;-)
[11:07] <Sweetshark> pitti: Im scared by the meeting reminder. Dont give in to the french Zealots!
[11:08] <pitti> Sweetshark: Française ne sera jamais la langue officielle!
[11:08] <seb128> oh que si
[11:08] <didrocks> ce n'est qu'une question de temps…
[11:08] <seb128> il suffit de lui laisser du temps ;-)
[11:09] <ogra_>  /join #ubuntu-desktop-non-fr
[11:09] <pitti> Je ne parlez-pas francais
[11:10] <Sweetshark> pitti: das siehst du, was du angestellt hast.
[11:10] <pitti> Sweetshark: ja, demnaechst muss ich noch Ungeziefer essen und Rotwein trinken
[11:10] <Sweetshark> ;)
[11:10] <seb128> kein german sprechen on das franzosisch irc!
[11:11]  * pitti adds debian/patches/break-for-username-seb128.patch to his GTK merge
[11:11] <seb128> pitti, EDONTCARE, I'm running Oneiric and trust our sru team :p
[11:11]  * pitti uploads langpack-locales, removing fr_*
[11:11] <ogra_> pitti, why username ? check for LANG :)
[11:12] <zyga_> lol
[11:12] <seb128> ok ok, you win, we keep the statusquo and keep using english (for this time)
[11:12] <pitti> not every French dude makes me eat escargot :)
[11:12] <seb128> (we will be back)
[11:12] <zyga_> ogra_, ubuntu-p is for precision, shotgun precision
[11:12] <ogra_> heh
[11:13]  * pitti accepts the tie, hugs everyone, and goes back to work
[11:13] <seb128> ;-)
[11:36] <chrisccoulson> pitti - how bad is it for me to add another work item to an already approved blueprint?
[11:37] <pitti> chrisccoulson: that happens all the time, go ahead
[11:37] <chrisccoulson> cool, thanks :)
[11:44] <pitti> mvo: can you please upload bug 882276 to precise, too? (i. e. a refresh)
[11:44] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 882276 in command-not-found "command-not-found includes packages removed from 11.10" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882276
[11:49] <pitti> rodrigo_: can you please upload the fix for bug 833397 to precise?
[11:49] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 833397 in gnome-settings-daemon "indicator power displayed twice on panel" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833397
[11:50] <rodrigo_> pitti, hmm, didn't I already?
[11:50]  * rodrigo_ checks
[11:51] <rodrigo_> pitti, yes, already uploaded afaics
[11:51] <pitti> rodrigo_: the precise task is still open, wrong changelog then?
[11:52] <rodrigo_> pitti, I think it's because of not using the -v, I thought I had closed it by hand
[11:52]  * rodrigo_ closes it
[11:52] <pitti> thanks
[12:02] <mvo> pitti: I will do a new extraction run with the precise dataset now, thanks for accepting the SRU
[12:04] <pitti> mvo: cheers
[12:46] <hyperair> pitti: regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/873787, did you really mean to upload the workaround to precise as well? you mentioned previously that it was fine to upload to -proposed only under the circumstances mentioned in the bug.
[12:46] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 873787 in banshee "Banshee does not start" [High,Confirmed]
[12:47] <ogra_> hyperair, well, it would be nice if it worked in precise too :)
[12:54] <pitti> hyperair: ah, right; sorry, I forgot about that when I wrote the comment, ignore me
[13:13]  * rodrigo_ lunch
[13:33] <Riddell> pitti: when is the meeting today?  your reminder doesn't remind me
[13:33] <Riddell> also you forgot to include agateau
[13:35] <hyperair> ogra_: under normal circumstances i would upload the patch to precise first, but this particular one deserves more testing and is just a hack to work around the bug until a better fix is found.
[13:42] <pitti> Riddell: 16:30 UTC, but so far we don't have anything to discuss, i. e. so far there won't be a meeting
[13:42] <pitti> Riddell: agateau> adding him to my mail alias and bouncing, thanks!
[14:14] <dobey> hyperair: hrmm; you uploaded something to oneiric-proposed?
[14:28] <dobey> indeed you did :-/
[14:29] <dobey> not having upload rights, sucks
[14:33] <hyperair> dobey: did you need something uploaded?
[14:33] <hyperair> dobey: the upload was actually from some time back, stalled in the upload queue
[14:33] <dobey> hyperair: i proposed a branch 17 hours ago... https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/oneiric/banshee/u1ms-idle-activate/+merge/82939
[14:34] <hyperair> dobey: should i reupload with that?
[14:34] <dobey> hyperair: that would be awesome if you could
[14:39] <hyperair> dobey: alright
[14:40] <dobey> hyperair: thanks!
[14:44] <hyperair> dobey: is this fixed in precise?
[14:50] <dobey> hyperair: i don't have upload privs there either, so no, but it is fixed in banshee master, so will be fixed with the next release/upload to precise
[15:00] <seb128> pitti, what's the way again to make apport ignore "non official packages" when trying to report a bug?
[15:00] <seb128> pitti, I'm trying to see if the hook in my local build is working but ubuntu-bug complains the package is not official
[15:02] <seb128> ups
[15:04] <seb128> pitti, ok, I reinstalled the official version and copy my hook manually over
[15:04] <seb128> that did the trick
[15:04] <seb128> chrisccoulson, mdeslaur: no cookie for you for writing a gnome-screensaver hook and not installing it ;-)
[15:04] <dobey> is ubuntu-desktop usually so noisy?
[15:04] <Sweetshark> LibreOffice 3.5 has just been codenamed "hazelnut syrup" ...
[15:04] <seb128> dobey, "so"?
[15:04] <mdeslaur> seb128: hey, it used to work
[15:05] <mdeslaur> seb128: someone must have merged it into oblivion
[15:05] <dobey> seb128: i guess there are a couple threads on it that have sort of incited plenty of replies :)
[15:05] <seb128> mdeslaur, likely yes
[15:06] <seb128> dobey, oh, the mailing list, yes it's not that active usually ;-)
[15:06] <dobey> seb128: i was wondering if i should bother joining it, to be able to reply to a couple of those threads :)
[15:06] <seb128> dobey, if you want sure, feel free, but no troll please, those are active enough without trolling ;-)
[15:07] <dobey> lol, i don't troll on mailing lists. only on social networks, and blogs :)
[15:08] <seb128> ;-)
[15:09] <Sweetshark> dobey: shouldnt that be "we don't troll on mailing lists. only on social networks, and blogs :)"?
[15:09] <seb128> rodrigo_, will you comment on that proxy bug I pointed earlier today? no need to fix the bug today but some users are getting angry so it would be nice to let them know somebody is working on their issue ;-)
[15:09] <rodrigo_> seb128, ah sure, sorry
[15:09] <rodrigo_> seb128, was looking at a fix
[15:09] <seb128> rodrigo_, no worry, thanks ;-)
[15:10] <pitti> seb128: APPORT_DISABLE_DISTRO_CHECK=1
[15:10] <seb128> pitti, danke, I was looking for the thirdparty one that got dropped it seems ;-)
[15:11] <seb128> pitti, then I greped the source for IGNORE_ since that's what APPORT_IGNORE_OBSOLETE_PACKAGES uses
[15:11] <seb128> that was close but that not enough ;-)
[15:11] <pitti> yay for consistent naming, sorry :/
[15:11] <Laney> speaking of the proxy capplet, is it going to allow configuring of 'no proxy' hosts?
[15:11] <pitti> seb128: the former is actually in man apport-bug
[15:12] <seb128> pitti, no worry
[15:12] <seb128> pitti, yes, I tried man and find only APPORT_IGNORE_OBSOLETE_PACKAGES there
[15:12] <pitti> seb128: the other is undocumented, as I really don't want so many people to know about this :)
[15:12] <seb128> Laney, isn't that the default?
[15:13] <seb128> pitti, ok, fair enough ;-)
[15:13] <Laney> seb128: no, to allow you to configure hosts which shouldn't go through the proxy
[15:14] <seb128> Laney, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=658570
[15:15] <ubot2> Gnome bug 658570 in Network "gnome-control-center doesn't allow to specify ignored hosts list." [Normal,Resolved: duplicate]
[15:15] <seb128> that?
[15:15] <Laney> yes
[15:16] <seb128> the GNOME guys didn't reject the request but didn't update the bug recently, so I guess it will be fixed one day, when somebody has time for that upstream, which might not be this cycle :-(
[15:16] <Laney> i looked at the bug it is duped to
[15:16] <Laney> 'needs design'
[15:26]  * ogra_ wonders if the brightness level not staying at what i adjusted over a reboot is arm specific or if others see that too
[15:26] <GunnarHj> pitti: Hi Martin!
[15:26] <seb128> ogra_, it's hardware specific but not arm specific rather
[15:26] <pitti> hello GunnarHj
[15:26] <ogra_> seb128, ok
[15:26] <GunnarHj> pitti: Robert uploaded the lang-chooser fix in lightdm to Precise last night. Later on he will move most of it upstream. I prepared https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/ubuntu/oneiric/lightdm/lang-chooser/+merge/83031 for the SRU. Could you please merge it into oneiric-proposed? It includes a security fix that is already in -updates and -security.
[15:26] <pitti> GunnarHj: I saw that your lightdm branch landed, congrats!
[15:27] <seb128> ogra_, it happens on some videocard,drivers on intel,amd64 world as well
[15:27] <GunnarHj> pitti: Thanks. :)
[15:27] <ogra_> ah, good, i should probably once try the nvidia driver on the ac100 :)
[15:27] <ogra_> might behave different
[15:34] <hyperair> pitti: regarding dobey's oneiric-proposed fix, should i upload with -v2.2.1-1ubuntu1 and override the -1ubuntu2 present in oneiric-proposed with -1ubuntu3 to verify both bugfixes at the same time?
[15:34] <pitti> hyperair: yes, that's fine
[15:34] <hyperair> okay
[15:35] <pitti> GunnarHj: uh, CVE fixes in an SRU? shoudln't this part go through -security?
[15:36] <GunnarHj> pitti: It's already there.
[15:36] <pitti> GunnarHj: oh, it is already; apparently you branched from oneiric final, not oneiric-security
[15:36] <pitti> ok, the merge should notice that
[15:40] <pitti> so, good night everyone!
[15:44] <dobey> night pitti!
[15:46] <seb128> 'night pitti
[16:24] <seb24> no meeting today ?
[16:25]  * desrt multiplies seb24 by 5⅓
[16:25] <kenvandine> seb24, doesn't look like it
[16:26] <MrChrisDruif> Meeting in 4 min?
[16:26] <pitti> no agenda items on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2011-11-22, so skipping
[16:26] <pitti> unless someone wants to bring sth. up now?
[16:30] <seb128> pitti, somebody should really send a note to the ubuntu-desktop list about the UDS decision for meetings, it was not publicly communicated
[16:30] <seb128> jasoncwarner_, ^
[16:30] <seb128> we will keep having people asking every week otherwise ;-)
[16:30] <mckitt1943> hello, can I use classic mode with 11.10
[16:30] <desrt> seb128, seb24; so are you guys related, or what?
[16:31] <desrt> mckitt1943: no.
[16:31] <pitti> seb128: ah, yeah
[16:31] <seb128> pitti, you might also want to consider Cc-ing ubuntu-desktop on the weekly reminders if those are calls for topic as well
[16:31] <mckitt1943> desert bye bye ubuntu
[16:31] <seb128> pitti, in case community contributors want also to add topics
[16:32] <pitti> jasoncwarner, Sweetshark, bryceh, chrisccoulson, didrocks, tremolux, Riddell, kenvandine, cyphermox, mterry, rodrigo_, seb128, tkamppeter, pedro_, desrt, agateau: any topic from you? should we have a discussion/meeting now?
[16:32] <seb128> desrt, no, we just share a common first name
[16:32] <desrt> i sense that mckitt1943 was upset about something, but i can't quite figure out what it might be
[16:32] <didrocks> nothing from my side in addition to the wiki
[16:32] <kenvandine> pitti, nope
[16:32] <rodrigo_> pitti: nothing from me
[16:32] <seb128> no
[16:32] <Riddell> Just a notice from me that I'm back and I'm working in UTC-4 so won't be around european mornings
[16:32] <chrisccoulson> pitti, no, nothing from me either
[16:33] <kenvandine> wb Riddell!
[16:33] <Riddell> thanks ken :)
[16:33] <pitti> didrocks: hm, you said new zeitgeist landed?
[16:33] <pitti> martin    6855  0.2  3.0<PHONE_NUMBER>40 ?       Sl   14:45   0:30 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/zeitgeist-daemon
[16:33] <pitti> didrocks: that's oneiric from a few hours ago
[16:33] <didrocks> pitti: yeah
[16:33] <didrocks> pitti: oneiric?
[16:33] <pitti> sorry, precise
[16:33] <chrisccoulson> i'm currently trying to figure out how to generate breakpad symbols from gtk and glib
[16:33] <chrisccoulson> fun :)
[16:33] <didrocks> pitti: hum, really?
[16:33] <didrocks> pitti: you mean, I didn't dput?
[16:34]  * didrocks checks
[16:34] <mterry> nothing from me, just in +1-maint land
[16:34] <pitti>  zeitgeist |    0.8.2-1 |       oneiric | source, all
[16:34] <pitti>  zeitgeist |    0.8.2-1 |       precise | source, all
[16:34] <pitti> didrocks: ^
[16:34] <pitti> didrocks: apparently not?
[16:34] <pitti> mterry: how does your +1 work go?
[16:34] <pitti> mterry: learning new stuff about how soyuz and the archive work?
[16:35] <didrocks> pitti: indeed, it should be at a dput away, fixing it :)
[16:35] <pitti> didrocks: yay, merci
[16:37] <mterry> pitti, not so much that side of things, though a little bit about what the archive team does.  mostly just ftbfs trudging  :)
[16:37] <mterry> and lots of patches sent to debian
[16:37] <pitti> mterry: and NBS apparently
[16:37] <mterry> yar
[16:37] <didrocks> Package has already been uploaded to ubuntu on upload.ubuntu.com
[16:37] <didrocks> hum, weird
[16:38] <pitti> didrocks: remember, you need the medium-sized stamp for those :)
[16:38] <didrocks> "medium-sized stamp"? :-)
[16:38] <pitti> as in the ones you put on letters and postcards
[16:39] <pitti> nevermind me
[16:39] <didrocks> pitti: we don't use size, we use colors for the different velocity in France :)
[16:43] <pitti> didrocks: still no upload, hm
[16:43] <didrocks> ah, got a rejection email
[16:43] <seb128> didrocks, stop uploading to oneiric (random guess ;-)
[16:43] <seb128> (happened to me several times this week)
[16:43] <didrocks> no, seems to be even better
[16:43] <didrocks> one sec
[16:44] <didrocks> zeitgeist (0.8.99~alpha1-1ubuntu1) ubuntu; urgency=low
[16:44] <didrocks> interesting
[16:44] <pitti> hah
[16:44] <didrocks> not sure how it ends up there
[16:45] <didrocks> "but but, I want to push to ubuntu"
[16:45] <didrocks> ok, should be better now
[16:45] <didrocks> and I forgot the -v with that
[16:45]  * didrocks should go to bed
[16:51] <mterry> seb128, sounds like someone needs to upgrade
[16:51] <seb128> mterry, what did I do? ;-)
[16:52] <mterry> seb128, you said you accidentally uploaded to oneiric several times  :)
[16:52]  * kenvandine is very impressed with my boot time in precise
[16:52] <kenvandine> 12s :)
[16:52] <seb128> mterry, oh, right
[16:52] <seb128> kenvandine, how much was it in oneiric?
[16:53]  * kenvandine looks
[16:53] <seb128> kenvandine, can you check on bug #893062 btw
[16:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 893062 in evolution "evolution fails to communicate with gnome-keyring" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893062
[16:53] <kenvandine> my last bootchart from oneiric was 43s
[16:54] <mterry> kenvandine, nice
[16:54] <seb128> hum
[16:54] <seb128> doesn't make sense, or your oneiric was really buggy ;-)
[16:55] <kenvandine> ok, looked over my last few oneiric ones and had one 27s
[16:55] <kenvandine> seb128, i can take a look
[16:55] <seb128> kenvandine, still seems buggy, we didn't change GNOME or Unity yet
[16:55] <seb128> but good that it improved ;-)
[16:56] <seb128> kenvandine, well, unping about the keyring issue, I though you uploaded your sru which changes the order of keyrings read but you didn't
[16:56] <kenvandine> i updated 2 weeks ago, and just now i realized how blazing fast boot was
[16:56] <pitti> well, we got a new kernel
[16:56] <seb128> pitti, well, still that seems like a bug that got fixed rather than precise improvements ;-)
[16:56] <kenvandine> seb128, i did to precise
[16:57] <pitti> seb128: yes, absolutely
[16:57] <kenvandine> i see plymouth for about 2s before lightdm
[16:57] <kenvandine> smoking!
[16:57] <seb128> kenvandine, the user is using oneiric, the timing seemed suspicious with your sru but the sru didn't get through so that's not it ;-)
[16:58] <kenvandine> ok
[16:58]  * kenvandine goes back to gtkspell :)
[16:58]  * kenvandine is adding gir and vapi gen
[17:02] <seb128> kenvandine, jbicha: hey, did you guys discuss the sync request Jeremy did for some of the indicator packages and how that play with the full source vcs derived from the upstream one?
[17:02] <kenvandine> no....
[17:03] <seb128> kenvandine, well, jbicha requested sync requests for some of the indicator sources and they got acked and done over the w.e
[17:03] <seb128> not sure how that fit with the vcs though
[17:03] <kenvandine> oh
[17:04] <kenvandine> i think i would need to manually merge that
[17:04] <pitti> the best is probably to commit the diff from the syncs to the bzr
[17:04] <seb128> right
[17:04] <seb128> I'm mentioning it because that needs to be sorted
[17:04] <pitti> you can grab it from LP
[17:04] <kenvandine> yeah, i will
[17:04] <pitti> that's what I did with dee
[17:05] <seb128> kenvandine, it was indicator-messages libindicate libindicator
[17:05] <kenvandine> thx
[17:05] <seb128> kenvandine, there is bug #891926 as well
[17:05] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 891926 in indicator-session "Sync indicator-session <IP_ADDRESS>-1 (main) from Debian experimental (main)" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891926
[17:05] <seb128> I did catch this one and asked to get the vcs story sorted
[17:06] <seb128> but I didn't see the other ones before they got acked and synced
[17:07] <jbicha> yes, sorry about the indicator syncing
[17:08] <jbicha> perhaps Debian should use debian1 naming like http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/software-center.html
[17:08] <seb128> pitti, btw didn't you say good night around the meeting time? stop working! ;-)
[17:08] <pitti> I will soon
[17:08] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:08] <pitti> came back after supermarket in case we had a meeting
[17:08] <kenvandine> jbicha, no worries, i'll get them cleaned up in VCS
[17:08] <pitti> and now I'm stuck in a huge backlog of process-removals
[17:08] <seb128> pitti, classic mistake ;-)
[17:08] <pitti> but I'll just ^C it soon, time for dinner
[17:08] <seb128> never come back when you managed to step away :p
[17:09] <seb128> jbicha, kenvandine: should I sync indicator-messages as well then?
[17:09] <kenvandine> it did get synced, didn't it?
[17:10] <jbicha> it's a bit confusing having Ubuntu being the upstream packager instead of Debian...
[17:10] <seb128> kenvandine, no, I did catch this one and put the bug in incomplete
[17:10] <jbicha> I don't think the tools really work the opposite direction as well
[17:10] <pitti> -1debian1 is a bit silly IMHO; as soon as its in Debian we should use -0ubuntu1
[17:10] <seb128> jbicha, right, we had that discussion before, there is no real "master packager"
[17:10] <kenvandine> there is a mail in precise-changes for it
[17:10] <pitti> instead of tramping on Debian's namespace
[17:11] <seb128> kenvandine, sorry, indicator-session
[17:11] <seb128> bug #891926
[17:11] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 891926 in indicator-session "Sync indicator-session <IP_ADDRESS>-1 (main) from Debian experimental (main)" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891926
[17:11] <seb128> kenvandine, I'm getting confused ;-)
[17:11] <kenvandine> seb128, ah... yeah go ahead
[17:11] <kenvandine> i'll manually merge that too
[17:12]  * kenvandine steps away for lunch
[17:12] <jbicha> kenvandine: are the indicators something that we should be packaging in Debian experimental (via pkg-ayatana) at least then?
[17:12] <kenvandine> jbicha, i have helped out a bit
[17:12]  * kenvandine has to run though... bbiab
[17:14] <jbicha> I was impressed that software-center just got a current experimental release in Debian, I haven't tried it though
[17:20] <pitti> so long, have a nice evening!
[17:21] <seb128> jbicha, well there is no real difference with GNOME on how we maintain indicators compared to debian
[17:21] <seb128> none of our custom vcs handle fine direct syncs
[17:21] <seb128> lp:ubuntu... with the autoimporters do
[17:21] <seb128> but the ubuntu-desktop vcses or the dx ones don't, if we sync we need somebody to manually merge every sync done
[17:21] <seb128> 'night pitti
[17:27] <jbicha> seb128: I'm not understanding what you're saying
[17:28] <seb128> jbicha, when using a non-standard vcs nothing is commiting the syncs for you
[17:28] <seb128> the autoimporter does update lp:ubuntu/<source>
[17:28] <seb128> but nothing will update ~ubuntu-desktop/<source>/ubuntu
[17:28] <seb128> so syncs are a bit problematic for desktop sources which have a team vcs
[17:29] <seb128> (that's one reason why we drop ~ubuntu-desktop/<source>/ubuntu for sources which are mostly in sync with debian)
[17:29] <seb128> the dx vcs-es are yet another case since they are full sure but derivated from the upstream source for those project (so a bzr merge <rev> works)
[17:29] <jbicha> right, and we wouldn't need a desktop branch if we can stay in sync with Debian
[17:30] <seb128> right
[17:31] <jbicha> the dx branches scare me; I've just gotten too comfortable with quilt & the desktop branches :)
[17:31] <seb128> but in practice most people are busy enough to not want to spend the extra efforts maintaing the source twice
[17:32] <seb128> dx ones are great, you can basically bzr merge -c <rev> lp:source
[17:32] <seb128> to backport a commit
[17:32] <seb128> without having to use quilt or anything ;-)
[17:32] <jbicha> maybe it's better, I just don't understand it yet because I've never done it
[17:33] <seb128> it's better but works only when upstream is in bzr
[17:33] <seb128> or when you have an import of upstream code in bzr
[22:04] <jasoncwarner_> hey bryceh RAOF robert_ancell and TheMuso meeting time!! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2011-11-22
[22:05] <RAOF> Good morning all :)
[22:05]  * bryceh waves
[22:05] <jasoncwarner_> great. lets get this thing started.
[22:05] <jasoncwarner_> bryceh RAOF X update?
[22:05] <TheMuso> Good morning.
[22:06] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, today working on an xdiagnose update, mostly clarifying dialog wording and such
[22:06] <bryceh> yesterday got 5 systems updated to precise, ran into various bugs including #876499 which seems to be bad - broken nvidia on fresh installs
[22:07] <jasoncwarner_> bryceh:  only fresh installs? upgrades are fine?
[22:07] <bryceh> also worked through several other non-X bugs like bug #458482 and bug #893700 and others.  Think fixes for those are now int he works
[22:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 458482 in usb-creator "usb drives imaged with usb-creator fail to boot on some systems" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458482
[22:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 893700 in debootstrap "pbuilder create of a precise image fails on perl-modules / perl conflict" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893700
[22:08] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, I did one upgrade and ran into one bug where if I had extras enabled it failed; didn't look to see if that's reported already
[22:08] <bryceh> also ran into a slew of problems trying to get the installer to format the drives the way I wanted, it kept crashing.  But then just let it format them the way it wanted and all was good.
[22:09] <bryceh> anyway, good news is other than the nvidia bug, X seems solid.
[22:09] <bryceh> and I think the nvidia bug might be an error in ubiquity.
[22:09] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, on topic of multimonitor
[22:09] <RAOF> I think that nvidia dislikes something about the 3.2 kernel, too.  Or possibly something in UEFI/efifb/3.2.  It mostly fails to actually display the xserver.
[22:10] <bryceh> I've associated a slew of bug #'s to the blueprint (probably more than is reasonable; we will likely want to prune it down as w ego forward)
[22:10] <bryceh> I've also started work on the refactoring for libxrandr-utils.  Still waiting on my FDO registration but got the first few bits pulled into a local git tree
[22:11] <bryceh> next step there is I'm going to implement a test suite; seems there are two choices in X
[22:11] <bryceh> 1. 'check', used by libxcb
[22:11] <bryceh> 2. 'glib' used by xserver and a couple other things
[22:11] <RAOF> glib is also used by bits of unity, but I've played with check before.
[22:12] <bryceh> looks like #2 is the more "official" but since it depends on gtk looks like it needs additional packaging magic to make it condutional
[22:12] <bryceh> figure I can set up glib and if we need to move to check later it's not a big deal
[22:13] <RAOF> Yeah, that should be reasonably easy.
[22:13] <bryceh> as to bugs in general for precise,  they're light right now as would be expected
[22:13] <jasoncwarner_> bryceh: I'll check out the BP for multi-monitor later. Do you think the BP covers the scope of the problem for precise?
[22:13] <bryceh> just 3 open, including the nvidia one I mentioned above.   That's really the only serious one.
[22:14] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, I do.  I think the bulk of the "problem" that people are complaining loudly about right now are more to do with Unity usability problems, and I gather the Unity guys are working on those issues
[22:14] <bryceh> we have them linked to the blueprint so I plan to keep an eye on them, and raise priority of issues that seem not to be getting neough attention.
[22:15] <jasoncwarner_> bryceh: ok, thanks.
[22:15] <jasoncwarner_> bryceh: anything else?
[22:15] <jasoncwarner_> if not, TheMuso you are up :)
[22:15] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, yes a couple things
[22:15] <jasoncwarner_> bryceh: go for it
[22:16] <bryceh> in linking multimonitor bugs, I also found a lot of config tool issues (or even just regular X problems), that have been open for some time, so even aside from Unity we have plenty of work to be done to improve things.
[22:17] <bryceh> the other thing, beyond X, did some work on launchpad stakeholder issues last week.  Anyone with issues they'd like flagged for escalation just let me know.
[22:17] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, ok done.
[22:17] <TheMuso> Ok, started to make good progress on pollishing accessibility for precise.
[22:18] <TheMuso> Indicator work is well under way, mostly in making sure that the most common indicators, and even some of the less common ones, have accessible descriptions, either by filing bugs, or writing patches directly, i.e brasero.
[22:19] <TheMuso> Still trying to catch Ted to talk about dbusmenu changes for accessible descriptions for network strength etc in the network manager menu. I could start on the work, but there is a coule of ways that the code could be implemented, and I need to know what Ted preferrs. tedg, if you're around, can we please have a chat about this?
[22:20] <TheMuso> The other big bug bear I am tackling atm is getting notifications fully accessible again. I'm mostly there, and am at the point where I may need to change something on the Orca side as well. I hope to have that nailed today and propose a branch for review by EOD.
[22:22] <jasoncwarner_> thanks TheMuso
[22:22] <jasoncwarner_> TheMuso: anything else you wanted to note?
[22:22] <TheMuso> Only that I hope we make a decision re GTK version soon, as the latest GTK in the 3.3 series has some a11y updates I would like us to have.
[22:23] <jasoncwarner_> TheMuso: ah, ok....
[22:23] <jasoncwarner_> thanks TheMuso
[22:23] <TheMuso> np
[22:23] <jasoncwarner_> robert_ancell and RAOF want to update everyone on your testing efforts this week? RAOF you can go first then hand off to robert_ancell :)
[22:25] <RAOF> I've been looking at the distro-priority unity bugs, picked https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-distro-priority/+bug/807921, and wrote a test & fix for it.  And a couple of extra tests of associated functionality while I was down there.
[22:25] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 807921 in unity "Unity tooltips doesn't show Hebrew characters" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[22:27] <RAOF> That problem was not actually a rendering problem, so neither were the tests, but today I'm going to be writing some rendering tests for the problem.  That'll make it easy to write further automated rendering tests, 'cause there'll be infrastructure there for starting a window, running your test, and pulling data from it.
[22:28] <robert_ancell> RAOF, what are you using to do the rendering?
[22:28] <RAOF> Currently the running X server + GL stack.
[22:30] <bryceh> RAOF, would xserver 1.11 make any difference?  (And what's the merge status on that?)
[22:30] <RAOF> That's acceptable for a “make check” run on a developer's system, but is obviously insufficient for headless testing.  It's not clear to me that we require headless testing, though.  If we do, it shouldn't be too hard to wrap this up in a standalone dummy server + software rendered GL.
[22:32] <RAOF> bryceh: xserver 1.11 wouldn't make any difference, although some of the patches going into 1.12 around making running the xserver with dummy input and video drivers might.  The merge status is as last week - it builds, but my forward-ported XI 2.1 patches break grab behaviour, so need to be fixed.
[22:33] <jasoncwarner_> RAOF: anything else or should we give robert_ancell a chance?
[22:34] <RAOF> I think we can give Robert a chance now :)
[22:35] <TheMuso> heh
[22:36] <robert_ancell> so, I'm currently extending the test X server code used in LightDM to support the messaging required for Compiz.  It's now in lp:xig.  I'm currently in the slow, no end in sight process of filling the gaps and the easy part of adding lots of tests comes after (was the same with lightdm).  I hope to have one window placement test working by the end of the day.  smspillaz is working from the other direction adding uni
[22:36] <robert_ancell> t tests.
[22:38] <robert_ancell> (eof)
[22:38] <bryceh> robert_ancell, can you elaborate briefly on what the goals are with xig?
[22:39] <robert_ancell> bryceh, to have an X server implementation which we can analyse all the state of the X server synchronously and easily generate clients/events to test an X client (specifically compiz)
[22:42] <RAOF> robert_ancell: Now that I think of it, have I pointed you at xcb?  Having xcb-generated server-side protocol handling code is something various people in X have talked about for a while; it might make your job easier?
[22:42] <robert_ancell> RAOF, I've used xcb as a client, but not as a server
[22:42] <TheMuso> /c/c
[22:44] <bryceh> robert_ancell, huh, interesting thanks.
[22:44] <RAOF> IIRC the xcb libs are generated from the protocol description.  If writing server-side protocol handling is becoming a chore, doing the same for the server implementation will probably work :)
[22:45] <robert_ancell> bryceh, RAOF, there's also some overlap here with xvfb/its replacement.  Not 100% sure which direction I should have tackled this from but the current technique is working
[22:45] <bryceh> robert_ancell, I take it this is in an effort to improve automated testing of compiz?
[22:45] <robert_ancell> bryceh, yes
[22:46] <robert_ancell> bryceh, in particular to test window placement, stacking and client/wm race conditions
[22:46] <bryceh> robert_ancell, you may be right about some overlap with xvfb, but probably depends ultimately on what type of functionality you're going to be testing
[22:46] <RAOF> xvfb should be replaced with the full xserver + dummy input & video drivers; there are some patches in 1.12 that make this easier.  I don't think users of xvfb will need to care about this, though.
[22:47] <robert_ancell> it's the race conditions that will get hard with a black box X server
[22:47] <RAOF> It also sounds like xig offers significantly more opportunity to test.
[22:47] <RAOF> Right.
[22:48] <bryceh> wonder if xig ought to have a testsuite itself?  ;-) ;-)
[22:48] <RAOF> It should probably have XTS run against it?
[22:48] <jasoncwarner_> thanks, robert_ancell and RAOF
[22:49] <jasoncwarner_> anyone want to comment on anything else?
[22:50] <jasoncwarner_> ok, sounds like it! thanks everyone
[22:50] <bryceh> thanks!
[22:51] <robert_ancell> RAOF, bryceh, the one thing that really stands out after reading the X spec is 8 bit keycodes?  Like really what were you thinking?
[22:51] <TheMuso> Thanks.
[22:52] <bryceh> robert_ancell, heh no kidding!  pita
[22:52] <RAOF> I think people were thinking it was 1970 :P
[22:52] <TheMuso> jasoncwarner_: Oh btw, I've just managed to catch Ted, so things are sorted re dbusmenu work, once I knock over notifications a11y I'll be getting started on that ASAP.
[22:53] <robert_ancell> RAOF, yeah, but most things are 16/32 bit.  And there's a whole lot of useless padding everywhere to make the base messages 28 words
[22:53] <jasoncwarner_> awesome, thanks TheMuso
[22:54] <robert_ancell> as the rest of it goes it's not a bad protocol.  Needs a next revision that brings in the basic extensions.  A lot of chatter when clients connect
[22:54] <RAOF> Yeah, the 8bit keycode is really awkward and baked in hard.  We've run against that limit for a while, and I don't think there's a plan for how to make it work.
[22:54] <bryceh> robert_ancell, yeah I gather the "fix" there is to do a point rev of the X11 protocol, which I gather is too intimidating for folks to undertake.
[22:55] <RAOF> There's always http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/X12
[22:55] <bryceh> RAOF, when I looked into it a couple years back it sounded like it was unfixable really, short of changing the X11 protocol
[22:55] <robert_ancell> bryceh, yeah, that's been my outside impression of X development.  People are too scared to make changes, e.g. everyone shudders when an extension is suggested, probably because they all look like they've been desigend by committees
[22:55] <bryceh> and even there, then you have to wait on client support and so on, so it's not an easy thing to fix.  Sad.
[22:56] <RAOF> Some protocol extensions are relatively easy.
[22:56] <RAOF> Witness pointer barriers.
[22:56] <bryceh> robert_ancell, in fact for a while there they were actively killing off (unused/unmaintained) extensions left and right
[22:56] <RAOF> But that was a really pretty trivial protocol.
[22:57] <robert_ancell> bryceh, the thing is, is there much that accesses X directly nowadays?  You only have to update a few toolkits right
[22:57] <bryceh> RAOF, btw a handful of the multimonitor bugs I ran across sound like awkward corner cases for pointer barriers.  I might ping you about them later on.
[22:58] <RAOF> robert_ancell: Mostly that's true.  You might be surprised how many apps decide to grab an X connection and frob some bits, though.
[22:59] <bryceh> robert_ancell, yeah for the basic cases where you can just rebuild the affected things.  I suppose closed source apps and network X connections and such could be a problem.  *shrug*
[23:00] <bryceh> I've forgotten the specific details; it sounded pretty definitively dire back when I looked at the status a couple years ago
[23:01] <RAOF> Well, you'd need a server that speaks both X11 and X12.  It'd be a pretty massive transition.
[23:03] <bryceh> I suspect there's also an underlying thought that wayland offers an opportunity to solve it by just bypassing X (and multi-vendor protocol approval committees or whatever) entirely.
[23:05] <RAOF> Right.  My feeling of the vibe is that Kristian also wants writing a wayland extension to be cheap and ubiquitous, and then the extensions that prove themselves useful get folded back in.
[23:06] <robert_ancell> RAOF, I like that strategy
[23:07] <RAOF> It's got its own dangers, but I think it'll make people hate the windowing system less.
[23:09] <robert_ancell> RAOF, bryceh, why is min-keycode not 0?
[23:13]  * RAOF shrugs
[23:13] <RAOF> Some things just are, you know :)
[23:41] <bryceh> robert_ancell, good question; seems to be pretty hard-coded into x-server.  a literal '0' is probably reserved as an error code.  I think the number 8 may come into play because there are 8 modifier keys.
[23:42] <robert_ancell> bryceh, the spec says it "can't be less than 8".  Modifiers sound like a good reason..
[23:44] <bryceh> robert_ancell, yeah it's like in the first paragraph of the keyboard section.  Very definitive.  But no explanation why.  In x code it's all just #define MIN_KEYCODE 8 all over the place :-)
[23:44] <bryceh> like raof says, it probably made sense back in 1970 before they had invented non-english computer users.
[23:45] <leo_BH_ubuntu> hi everybody