[01:43] <Flannel> Yay threats
[04:15] <gOLDfeesh> hey may I ask as to why I'm banned?
[04:15] <gOLDfeesh> hey SeaPhor
[04:18] <SeaPhor> can someone here please look and see why gOLDfeesh / afallenhope is banned from #ubuntu?
[04:18] <Pici> gOLDfeesh: It looks like you sent a version request to the channel.
[04:19] <gOLDfeesh> Pici, more than likely on accident.
[04:19] <Pici> gOLDfeesh: I trust you wont do it again?
[04:19] <gOLDfeesh> I was writing an IRC client and I coded something wrong,.. and then it sent a VERSION reply / request I dunno,  to the wrong offset in the packet
[04:20] <Pici> Okay, well next time probably best to test in a channel thats not #ubuntu
[04:20] <Pici> Anyway, ban is removed, have fun.
[04:20] <gOLDfeesh> ty
[04:21] <SeaPhor> gOLDfeesh, let me know  the whole thing  next time ;)
[04:21] <SeaPhor> ty Pici
[04:21] <Pici> np
[04:24] <Pici> !idle
[07:51] <Myrtti> pöö
[08:15] <ikonia> KB1JWQ: do you need anythin ?
[08:15] <Flannel> ikonia: Hmm?
[08:16] <ikonia> never mind I'm being stupid
[08:16] <Flannel> ikonia: Heh
[08:16] <ikonia> for some reason he was showing up with -v
[08:16] <jussi01> ikonia: not here....
[08:16]  * jussi01 shrugs
[08:16] <ikonia> I don't see a + next to him
[08:17] <ikonia> looks like irssi needs another restart, sorry KB1JWQ
[08:17] <jussi01> ikonia: your client is messedup
[08:17] <jussi01> :)
[08:17] <ikonia> irssi does go messy from time to time
[08:20] <Myrtti> I see tobeno1 is here again
[08:21] <ikonia> who is he ?
[08:21] <Myrtti> IIRC someone you've banned for running bots
[08:21] <Myrtti> yup
[08:21] <Myrtti> or the ip
[08:24] <Myrtti> wohey, last day of antibiotics
[08:25] <elky> are the holes better yet?
[08:26] <KB1JWQ> ikonia: Yeah, I'm here because I enjoy the scintillating conversation. :-p
[08:27] <Myrtti> the belly button looks awful still, but not as awful than before. No discharge
[08:27] <jussi01> Myrtti: does that mean you are coming to visit me?
[08:27] <jussi01> :D
[08:28] <Myrtti> jussi01: I don't know, I just realised I promised last week to go visit mum again before I fly out :-/
[08:29] <Myrtti> she's going to be heartbroken again...
[08:54] <Myrtti> there is no mac emulator, right?
[08:54] <Flannel> Myrtti: Not that I'm aware of
[08:55] <ikonia> KB1JWQ: sorry
[08:55] <KB1JWQ> ikonia: I'll live. :-p
[08:56] <KB1JWQ> So no worries.
[08:56] <ikonia> Myrtti: that same guy again then
[08:57] <ikonia> Myrtti: as I recall nal klined him
[08:58] <KB1JWQ> Who's this?
[08:58] <KB1JWQ> And where is he? :-)
[08:59] <ikonia> tobeno1:
[08:59] <ikonia> it's the same guy again as he's in the same channels as he was before
[08:59] <Myrtti> is he running them again?
[09:00] <ikonia> no idea
[09:01] <ikonia> I'd speak to nalioth if he's available as he did a ton more effort /investigfation
[09:01] <jussi01> ok, who here has good grep foo?
[09:01] <Flannel> !anyone | jussi01
[09:01]  * Flannel hides
[09:01] <jussi01> /abrn Flannel
[09:02] <jussi01> I need to grep for a string inside all the files in a certain folder and its subfolders.
[09:03] <Flannel> grep -R string /path/to/folder
[09:03] <Myrtti> sudo aptitude install zsh;grep string */**/*; :-P
[09:03] <Myrtti> ZSH TO WORLD DOMINATION!
[09:14] <KB1JWQ> Hey!
[09:14] <KB1JWQ> That'd work in bash 4.0!
[09:14] <KB1JWQ> But yeah, Flannel had it right. :-)
[09:14] <KB1JWQ> You can also use find, but that's convoluted.
[09:15] <Myrtti> I hate the logo and the name
[09:15] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[09:18] <KB1JWQ> Ugh.  We're pimping that site now?
[09:19] <Flannel> I don't see any reason to
[09:19] <Flannel> !system76
[09:20] <Myrtti> please elaborate on -irc
[12:45] <topyli> @mark Enflamed greets channel with "fuck, school, c ya later" before leaving
[12:46] <jpds> topyli: That's just his opening gambit.
[12:46] <bazhang> good idea to use @mark #channel nick
[12:46] <topyli> combined gambit/engame
[12:47] <topyli> bazhang: oh yes left out the channel
[12:47] <topyli> @mark #ubuntu-offtopic Enflamed greets channel with "fuck, school, c ya later" before leaving
[12:48] <topyli> sneaky anyway
[13:05] <Pici> jussi01: I was just about to do that
[13:05] <Pici> and jdong's trigger sucks
[13:05] <jussi01> why doesnt the council have access there?
[13:05]  * Pici shrugs
[13:06] <Pici> Its always been #uf does what they want
[13:06] <Pici> But that guy's statement crosses the line for me
[13:06] <jussi01> me also
[13:09] <Myrtti> how come I have the feeling he's been a troublemaker before
[13:09] <jussi01> no idea, but I do wish some of the forums ops were awake
[13:11] <Pici> I mean, I could try asking for access there... but I'm not sure that would end well.
[13:16] <bazhang> ahh bizkit from club-etc
[13:16] <Pici> ugh
[13:16] <bazhang> uber-troll deluxe
[13:23] <Myrtti> meh lag
[13:51] <bazhang>  /k indus
[13:51] <bazhang> indus, hi
[13:51] <Pici> Hi
[13:52] <indus> hey
[13:52] <Pici> I asked indus to join instead of furthering the offtopic conversation in #ubuntu
[13:52] <indus> ya i understand the best part was only my opinion
[13:52] <indus> ya sorry i should have
[13:52] <indus> but nothing to discuss, i agree with your point
[13:52] <bazhang> please don't argue when asked to stop.
[13:53] <indus> ya i did
[13:53] <indus> or maybe argue in the ops channel
[13:53] <Pici> Theres no harm in asking someone to join you in a conversation in #ubuntu-offtopic.  We like to keep the support and non-support topics separate here.
[13:54] <indus> ya i know, sorry for that one, but ....
[13:54] <indus> nvm
[13:54] <Pici> No, continue, please.
[13:54] <indus> aah off topic no
[13:54] <indus> my head is actually spinning now
[13:55] <Pici> Is there something thats confusing you specifically?
[13:55] <indus> no i thought iwas listing the browser choices to that user , isnt that fine?
[13:55] <indus> with some info on each
[13:55] <bazhang> there is a factoid for that
[13:55] <indus> ok
[13:56] <indus> ill use it
[13:56] <indus> cant remember all things at once
[13:56] <indus> i do use it , but need to keep watching which ones are factoids
[13:56] <Pici> indus: I keep a query open with ubottu at all times to test factoids before using them in channel.
[13:56] <Myrtti> there's a thing with telling the choices
[13:56] <indus> anyways on another note, i wanted to change a factoid
[13:56] <Pici> I have a good memory, but not *that* good
[13:57] <Myrtti> and it's a totally different thing to push a preference
[13:57] <indus> ok 3 ops iam only one person, cant argue with all
[13:57] <Pici> indus: We're not arguing.
[13:57] <indus> i prefer if pici or bazhang talk,
[13:57] <bazhang> ?
[13:58] <indus> ok i gtg now please
[13:58] <indus> how do i point to ops to revise a factoid
[13:59] <indus> hello?
[13:59] <indus> anyone?
[13:59] <Myrtti> the same way you suggest one
[13:59] <indus> !apt
[14:00] <indus> didnt get that
[14:00] <Myrtti> which part?
[14:00] <bazhang> indus, check the usage at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[14:00] <MenZa> indus: Send !fact is <reply> Whatever you want to say about that factoid to ubottu in a query, it's forwarded here, and we take care of it from there, should any action be necessary. Also, check the link bazhang posted.
[14:01] <indus> !fact is hello
[14:01] <indus> oops
[14:01] <MenZa> indus: The link should describe it better. Have a look there.
[14:01] <indus> sorry if that was intrusive
[14:02] <indus> ok i kinda get it now, had a factoid to revise(suggest) but didnt know this and dont remember which one now
[14:02] <indus> ok can i leave now?
[14:02] <bazhang> thanks for joining
[14:02] <indus> thanks for having me
[14:02]  * indus says have a nice day
[14:03] <elky> kids, can we please not all jump in at once?
[14:04] <Pici> Agreed. We've had a few people comment that they feel ganged up on when more than one or two of us start talking at once.
[14:04] <MenZa> Yeah, that was a bit too much.
[14:06] <elky> and ask permission in PM of the original op first
[14:06] <bazhang> my apologies
[14:06] <Pici> bazhang: No need
[14:06]  * Myrtti slinks to the cave
[14:07] <bazhang> Pici, okay; I will be more mindful of elky 's suggestion next time though
[14:08] <MenZa> hmm, !op appears to be an alias for <exc>ops - some people might think !op could be the trigger to call in an op to help with, you know, Ubuntu issues. Have we had any issues with people mistakingly calling in the ops using that trigger?
?
[14:09] <Myrtti> !
[14:09] <elky> exclamation mark
[14:09] <Pici> oh
[14:09] <Myrtti> MenZa: they always do that with ops too
[14:09] <MenZa> I didn't feel like higlighting everyone with that set as a hilight.
[14:09] <MenZa> (myself included)
[14:09] <Myrtti> not too often though
[14:09] <Pici> MenZa: We really don't get that many false positives.
[14:09] <bazhang> aaron11 in once in a while
[14:10] <bazhang> -in
[14:10] <Pici> +in
[14:10] <Pici> Anyway, hes a special case.
[14:10] <elky> it's not like it's a burden to have it there just in case
[14:11] <MenZa> point
[14:11] <Pici> I have <exc>ops (:P) on hilight, and one of the non-ubuntu channels I'm in has it as a factoid to explain something about the channel ops.. so annoying.
[14:11] <elky> heh
[14:11] <elky> anyway, im off for an early night
[14:11] <MenZa> Pici: heh
[14:12] <Pici> elky: goodnight
[14:12] <ikonia> night elky
[14:12] <MenZa> nini, elky o/
[14:12] <Pici> its #linode by the way
[14:12] <bazhang> g'night elky
[14:13] <MenZa> Pici: I instantly notice it if it's triggered anywhere for me. Bright green on a rather dull, grey irssi setup. False alarms are a bit... *growl*
[16:51] <Myrtti> yay, we have nursery and a daycare at -offtopic!
[17:42] <jpds> Might of been a bit harsh there but, whatever.
[17:42] <MenZa> Not really
[17:42] <MenZa> That was breaking pretty much every single rule of the IrcGuidelines
[17:43] <MenZa> (That was quick, btw)
[17:44] <Pici> I think its something that should be followed up in pm or ops though.
[17:44] <MenZa> I concur.
[17:44] <MenZa> I would, but I don't have access to #ubuntu
[17:47] <MenZa> Is anyone following up on this?
[17:47] <MenZa> Pici, jpds?
[17:47] <Pici> Its jpds's ban.
[17:47] <Pici> Also, am I lagging or has nothing been said in #ubuntu for the past 5 minutes?
[17:48] <Pici> oh, nevermind.
[17:52] <gord> the deaded "forgot to page down" strikes again :P
[17:52] <gord> dreaded*
[17:52] <jpds> gord: '/sb end' FTW
[17:52] <MenZa> gord: no, noone had spoken for quite a while :p
[18:40] <Myrtti> I've had a bad day today, and it just might be that I'll end up slapping that Ashhhh guy so hard he'll be searching his keyboard keys from Alaska
[18:40]  * MenZa hands Myrtti a coffee with a pinch of rum.
[18:42]  * Myrtti twitches, hard
[18:42] <Myrtti> make it go away!
[18:44] <MenZa> now now, Myrtti
[18:44] <MenZa> let's not get nasty
[18:44]  * Myrtti hides
[18:44] <MenZa> ignore -ot for a while, and it'll all go away and we can all be happy and cheery again.
[18:46]  * genii steals the rum-coffee
[18:46] <MenZa> :o
[18:46] <MenZa> lucky genii.
[18:46]  * MenZa wants one :(
[18:47]  * MenZa must... resist... /csremove...
[18:53]  * MenZa twitches slightly, mouth frothing on one side.
[18:54] <Myrtti> my brain is going to ooze out my ear in attempt to escape this stupidity
[18:55]  * genii stuffs it back in and puts a Bandaid over it
[19:10] <Myrtti> have we had enough?
[19:10] <MenZa> I am starting to think so.
[19:10] <MenZa> I have, several times, typed out /remove, but then backspaced.
[19:10] <MenZa> Referring him to bash, if he doesn't go there or returns and whines about their lack of helpfulness, well.
[19:11] <Myrtti> he's mocking my trade!
[19:11] <Myrtti> ARRRGGGHGHGHGHGHGHGHG
[19:11]  * Myrtti cries
[19:12] <Pici> MenZa: thanks, I was just about to do that.
[19:12]  * MenZa bows.
[19:13] <MenZa> /csremove is a wonderful alias.
[19:13] <Pici> for the 'omfg'
[19:13] <Pici> ♥
[19:13] <Myrtti> oh noes, it knows /join
[19:13] <Myrtti> I had to
[19:14] <Myrtti> sorry
[19:14] <MenZa> indeed, Pici
[19:14] <Myrtti> oh lord I needed that
[19:15] <Myrtti> I wonder what the neighbours thing
[19:15] <Myrtti> think
[19:15] <MenZa> :D
[19:16] <Myrtti> oh god, I'm really LOLing here
[19:16] <Myrtti> if I had the guinea pigs still, they'd be staring
[19:17] <MenZa> Beat me there, Pici. <___<
[19:17] <Pici> MenZa: I do live in the factoid factory after all
[19:18] <MenZa> indeed.
[19:24]  * Myrtti goes pre-emptively away
[19:24] <MenZa> Ashhh, you have repeatedly been asked to stop swearing in channel, and yet you refuse to listen.
[19:25] <Ashhh> I didn't swear
[19:25] <MenZa> [20:21:41] <Pici> Ashhh: Seriously. the nice language rule extends to those acronyms you love to use.
[19:25] <MenZa> "OMFG" counts as swearing, and you were told this on several (I count three) occassions.
[19:26] <Ashhh> oh
[19:26] <Ashhh> lol
[19:26] <Ashhh> :)
[19:26] <MenZa> It doesn't seem to me like you're really absorbing what we're saying.
[19:26] <MenZa> Which is why I've sent you in here so we can discuss this in a more, uh, quiet setting.
[19:27] <Ashhh> I didn't understand that line
[19:27] <Ashhh> that's why
[19:27] <Ashhh> :/
[19:27] <MenZa> What do you mean by "didn't understand"?
[19:27] <Ashhh> like
[19:27] <Pici> I think he means he didn't understand what I said so he ignored it.
[19:27] <Abarle> uhm, wrong nick
[19:28] <Ashhh> didn't know what it meant
[19:28] <Ashhh> no, didn't ignore it
[19:28]  * Abarle rolls eyes at himself
[19:30] <MenZa> Ashhh: One moment please.
[19:32] <MenZa> Ashhh: All of Ubuntu-related channels are frequented by people from all cultures and all age groups, and some are more easily offended than others.
[19:32] <MenZa> Ashhh: Therefore, our IRC guidelines state that swearing is stricly-prohibited, as it is never really a means to get you anywhere.
[19:32] <Ashhh> :)
[19:33] <Ashhh> kk
[19:33] <MenZa> Ashhh: We're trying to make IRC'ing on Ubuntu's channels a nice experience for everyone, so the community has established some pretty straight-forward rules to follow
[19:33] <Ashhh> I will not swear anymore
[19:33] <Ashhh> and I think I'm done with the idiotic attitute
[19:33] <Ashhh> lol
[19:33] <MenZa> Sounds good.
[19:33]  * Ashhh hugs MenZa.
[19:34] <MenZa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines <- The IRC guidelines are here, should you have any doubts. If you do have any, feel free to ask. I'm always around to /query, and if not, someone should be around you can ask.
[19:34] <MenZa> I'll remove your ban now. Please be nice. :)
[19:34] <Ashhh> kk
[19:34] <Ashhh> will do.
[19:35] <MenZa> You can leave now :)
[19:35] <MenZa> (and re-join #ubuntu-offtopic)
[19:35] <Ashhh> whoo
[19:35] <Ashhh> :D
[19:35] <MenZa> That went pretty smoothly
[19:35]  * MenZa will be watching.
[19:35] <Pici> By the way, I've got a report that he might be up to something, so best to keep our eyes on him in the future.
[19:36] <MenZa> How does the @mark command work? Anything we could store in there?
[19:36] <Pici> @help mark
[19:37] <Pici> MenZa: It'll grab the log from the channel its used to in and stick that in the bantracker event.
[19:37] <MenZa> I see
[19:38] <Pici> ikonia: he was complaining in another channel about getting banned in -offtopic
[19:39] <ikonia> okey dokey
[19:39] <Pici> Apparently that channel may have caused some issues a few days ago.
[19:44] <MenZa> That was not my intention. <__<;
[20:39] <Myrtti> meh
[20:39] <Myrtti> he's back :-(
[20:43] <ikonia> who is ?
[20:43] <Myrtti> ashhh
[20:52] <jpds> Da da da dum.
[22:39] <LjL> #uf ops wanted
[22:40] <LjL> well nevermind, dealt with, but i can obviously confirm it was concerted trolling.
[22:56] <ikonia> the arhclinux guys are troll plotting
[22:56] <ikonia> I've got it logged
[23:11] <jpds> Quite.
[23:12] <ikonia> thank yoiu jpds
[23:12] <tomaw> hrm
[23:12] <tomaw> I've had reports of problems in #archlinux-offtopic previously
[23:12] <nalioth> why am i not surprised . .
[23:13] <tomaw> and when I look at my logs of the evening they're discussing renewing IP addresses and/or getting gpg-tor ilines registered to evade bans
[23:13] <nalioth> dvinchi____ is in #surpremos
[23:13] <tomaw> yeah, I groaned when I saw that too
[23:13] <ikonia> tomaw: I had logs for this, I was just packing it all up to submit to the council
[23:14] <ikonia> as in ubuntu irc council to submit to freenode
[23:22] <tomaw> ikonia: so, what do you know about these curious people?
[23:23] <ikonia> tomaw: long time set of trolls, sit in the channel discussing how to be a problem for various #ubuntu-$X channels, do it, get banned then discuss how much fun it was
[23:23] <ikonia> the last incident you just caught was for #ubuntuforums
[23:23] <tomaw> who're the people mostly involved?
[23:24] <ikonia> bruenig wizzard, frogobogo couple of others
[23:24] <ikonia> got some notes in BT
[23:24] <ikonia> which I'll dig out and send to the council in a nice package
[23:24] <tomaw> thewizord is the person that stands out most currently
[23:25] <ikonia> he's one of the core ones,
[23:27] <dragon> !gnewsense
[23:27] <dragon> shouldn't we be referring users to gobuntu instead of gnewsense?
[23:27] <dragon> given that goubuntu is supported by canonical, and gnewsense by two developers
[23:27] <jpds> !gobuntu
[23:28] <ikonia> dragon: no
[23:28] <jpds> dragon: It's dead.
[23:28] <Flannel> dragon: No, gobuntu is deprecated in favor of gnewsense
[23:28] <jpds> Flannel: No.
[23:28] <ikonia> dragon: gnewsense references gnuewsense
[23:28] <Flannel> jpds: I believe so, let me... see if I can find that documentation
[23:28] <jpds> Flannel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gobuntu
[23:30] <dragon> ikonia: For those looking for completely "free software", we should be telling them about how Ubuntu could be use to achieve that, instead of pointing them to external websites.
[23:31] <ikonia> why ? there is no problem with gnewsense
[23:31] <dragon> jpds: Ubuntu wiki reads "The new "Free software only" installation option in the normal Ubuntu (press F6 in the boot menu twice) basically achieves what Gobuntu is aiming for, as long as the general goal of having "clean" main and universe repositories is fulfilled (which is goal of the Ubuntu as a whole)."
[23:31] <Flannel> jpds: Ah, it's still depreciated.  Wonder where I heard about gnewsense
[23:31] <dragon> ikonia: I see a problem that it's supported by only two developers.
[23:31] <jpds> dragon: Yes.
[23:31] <ikonia> that's not our problem though, if someone choses to use it or not is not our decision to make
[23:32] <dragon> ikonia: we should still be guiding them towards gobuntu - perhaps by mentioning !gobuntu in !gnewsense
[23:32] <dragon> !windows
[23:32] <ikonia> it was a user who mentioned it -
[23:32] <jpds> Why guide them towards something that's dead?
[23:32] <Flannel> dragon: gobuntu is dead
[23:33] <dragon> Flannel: right, we should then tell users that they can achieve the "gobuntu effect" within Ubuntu - they don't *have to* use gnewsense
[23:33] <nalioth> dragon: gnewsense is supported by the same devs as debian and ubuntu
[23:34] <ikonia> dragon: does it matter??? he was given a legitimate answer, that's why the factoid is there
[23:34] <tomaw> ikonia: I removed thewizord but expect him to evade.  please keep me in the loop with problems from there and I'll chase it with their GC/whatever
[23:35] <ikonia> tomaw: sure, thank you
[23:35] <dragon> nalioth: that's a good thing, but still..
[23:35] <Flannel> The factoids could probably be updated to inform about options as well, more knowledge is better than less.
[23:36] <dragon> ikonia: i only wanted to give a clear picture to users who don't realize that Ubuntu can be used in "free" mode
[23:36] <Flannel> well, no, ignore that second clause.
[23:36] <dragon> !gobuntu
[23:36] <ikonia> dragon: ubuntu can be used in freemode - just don't install the closed packges
[23:36] <dragon> this one needs to be fixed too
[23:36] <dragon> ikonia: some users fail to realize that
[23:37] <dragon> and probably that's why gobuntu ever existed
[23:37] <ikonia> dragon: if they know they don't want closed source products - they know not to install them
[23:38] <ikonia> +KmilazO in #ubuntu recuriting/inviting users to his channel
[23:38] <ikonia> trying to resolve now
[23:39] <ikonia> looks like the same peron I banned for flooding earlier
[23:40] <dragon> gnewsense factoid doesn't really matter, except for it's hard to trust that a small developer team will be able to support it is the long run
[23:40] <dragon> probably gobuntu factoid can carry a bit more relevant info
[23:41] <dragon> rest is good i guess
[23:41] <dragon> ttyl folks
[23:42] <ikonia> confirmed he is the same guy I banned earlier
[23:42] <ikonia> I've now banned to the two ip's / nicks he was using
[23:42] <tomaw> what was the other?
[23:43] <ikonia> KmilazO
[23:43] <ikonia> ubunteate_este
[23:43] <ikonia> ubunteate_este just became ][FABIAN][
[23:44] <ikonia> gents, I'm going to bed (and ladies)
[23:45] <Pici> goodnight ikonia
[23:47]  * nalioth loves how people just don't listen


[01:32] <sethj> hmm, I just noticed two finger tap doesn't open the context menu on 15.10.  How are you?
[05:44] <hikiko> bonjour didrocks :)
[05:44] <hikiko> i am good, you?
[05:45] <didrocks> I'm fine, thanks !
[06:15] <larsu> bonjour!
[06:19] <didrocks> bonjour larsu !
[06:20] <larsu> hey how are you didrocks?
[06:21] <pitti> hellas hikiko!
[06:21] <pitti> guten Morgen larsu
[06:22]  * larsu winkt pitti
[06:22] <didrocks> larsu: I'm good, thanks!
[06:22] <didrocks> yourself?
[06:22] <larsu> great thanks!
[06:22] <larsu> sun is shining so much I have problems seeing the screeen
[06:22] <larsu> which is *awesome* in this season
[06:22] <pitti> lol
[06:22] <pitti> yeah, chilly but sunny autumn, nice!
[06:24] <larsu> indeed
[06:25] <hikiko> hey :) hi pitti and larsu
[06:26] <larsu> good morning hikiko!
[07:04] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[07:05] <pitti> bonjour seb128 !
[07:05] <seb128> hey pitti, wie gehts?
[07:06] <pitti> seb128: gut, danke! je suis travaillé depuis 4h20, on va à Dresden aujourd'hui à nouveau
[07:07] <seb128> pitti, c'est déjà l'après-midi pour toi alors !
[07:07] <pitti> seb128: en effet !
[07:11] <seb128> oh, pitti is piloting
[07:11] <pitti> *soooarrrrrrrr*
[07:12] <seb128> that queue is going to be back in 0 today ;-)
[07:12] <pitti> 57 → 42 so far
[07:12] <pitti> I think I achieved that only once :/
[07:12] <seb128> that's quite good, it was up to 80 earlier in the week
[07:12] <pitti> and with FF it won't be today
[07:12] <seb128> Laney did a good shift yesterday
[07:12] <seb128> I was pondering having a look today, but after you guys I bet only the difficults one are going to be left ;-)
[07:13] <seb128> I might still pick a few ones and at least nag server team or whoever should review them
[07:14] <didrocks> cyphermox did quite some as well overnight, that was nice :)
[07:15] <seb128> great
[07:31]  * pitti -> train station, bbl
[08:00] <willcooke> o/
[08:00] <hikiko> hello willcooke
[08:01] <willcooke> morning hikiko - did you see my message re: old bugs in Compiz...
[08:01] <willcooke> script says 708 Compiz bugs > 2 years old, and of those only 64 have had any comments in the last year
[08:01] <willcooke> Seems like we can auto-close a lot of them
[08:01] <willcooke> or rather, auto-incomplete
[08:02] <hikiko> no I didn't :s but I closed all the bugs before aug 2010
[08:02] <seb128> hey willcooke hikiko Laney
[08:02] <hikiko> it's not in my inbox :S
[08:02] <hikiko> hi Laney seb128
[08:03] <Laney> hey hey
[08:03] <Laney> I just checked the calendar and it is indeed Friday
[08:03] <Laney> chrisccoulson: oxide> no, I didn't look further than that push-state thing
[08:06] <seb128> Laney, don't be sad, monday is not that far and then you can hack again on cool Ubuntu things ;-)
[08:06] <hikiko> lol
[08:06] <Laney> I know, I just hate the weekend and going to work at the climbing centre
[08:06] <seb128> :-p
[08:07] <Laney> all the time I'm there I am just looking forward to being back at launchpad.net
[08:07] <seb128> going climing this w.e? ;-)
[08:07] <Laney> ALWAYS!
[08:07] <Laney> not outdoors though... maybe I should...
[08:07] <Laney> how's it going? ;-)
[08:08] <Laney> hey hikiko
[08:08] <seb128> going good!
[08:08] <hikiko> willcooke, I can't find your email :/
[08:08] <seb128> I spent another hour triaging unity bugs, but start having enough of those so time to do something else
[08:08] <willcooke> hikiko, was IRC
[08:08] <seb128> I'm going to try to keep doing one hour in the morning for a bit
[08:08] <willcooke> thanks seb128 !
[08:08] <seb128> yw!
[08:09] <willcooke> btw - please let me know (or fill in the spreadsheet) the days you expect to need a hotel room everyone
[08:09] <willcooke> quite surprised how few people have done that
[08:10] <Laney> people usually look at their travel options first
[08:11] <hikiko> willcooke, I can't find it, but I closed some bugs before so we have even fewer
[08:11] <willcooke> We need to get the hotel book asap, otherwise we're sleeping under desks in Blue Fin
[08:11] <willcooke> *booked
[08:18] <pitti> willcooke: I'm sure London has better places to spend the nights at :)
[08:18] <Laney> sleepover at willcooke's house
[08:18] <Laney> hey pitti
[08:19] <pitti> hey Laney, how are you?
[08:19] <willcooke> I think there is a direct correlation between hotels with rooms available at short notice and the murder rate for that area
[08:19] <Laney> feeling strangely fine (/me puts that album on)
[08:19] <Laney> went round a friend's for cheese and board games last night
[08:19] <Laney> you?
[08:21] <pitti> Laney: feeling quite okay too, although a bit tired; started early today as we go to Dresden over the weekend
[08:23] <Laney> that means you're closer to being finished for the week :)
[08:24] <pitti> Laney: exactly :)
[08:25]  * Laney swears at mips* https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=gdk-pixbuf&suite=experimental
[08:52] <willcooke> Trevinho, hey - any thoughts on when/if the dash overlay scroll bars will land?
[09:44] <Sweet5hark> hmm, when did we cross the border to insanity: When we had a ./configure script with more then 10.000 lines? Or when we had a ./configure.ac with more than 10.000 lines?
[10:02] <willcooke> hi Laney, seb128 - I've opened a bug with the new wallpaper.  I will speak to the doc team about exceptions
[10:02] <willcooke> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers/+bug/1497177
[10:02] <seb128> willcooke, popey, that screen corruption on monitor config changes (like plugin one or undocking), did you ever try changing workspaces? does that workaround it for you?
[10:03] <willcooke> seb128, I tried it, made no difference.  I think it's a different bug.  Things like vt1 were effected as well
[10:03] <Laney> willcooke: thx, will look later/monday
[10:03] <willcooke> thanks Laney
[10:03] <popey> seb128: i dont recall, but andyrock has made a patch which I am using now
[10:03] <seb128> willcooke, k, I just saw it here with an external vga monitor but changing workspace fixed it
[10:03] <popey> and have been able to change monitor config without it breaking
[10:04] <seb128> popey, is that working?
[10:04] <popey> so far, yes
[10:04] <seb128> so it was a compiz/unity issue?
[10:04] <popey> looks like it
[10:04] <seb128> andyrock, ^ should https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1421575 be marked invalid?
[10:04] <willcooke> popey, so your wife-problems are fixed ;)
[10:04] <popey> lp:~azzar1/unity/lp-1485727/
[10:04] <popey> IKR
[10:04] <seb128> lp #1485727
[10:05] <willcooke> but
[10:05] <willcooke> I spoke to andyrock yesterday about this
[10:05] <seb128> what I though, they seem similar problems
[10:05] <willcooke> and he said there was no way I should be seeing it on 14.04
[10:05] <seb128> but then changing workspaces should workaround it
[10:05] <seb128> willcooke, your bug might be different from the one others are seeing then...
[10:05] <popey> seb128: ok, let me revert back to stock unity and try that
[10:05] <seb128> popey, thanks
[10:05] <willcooke> seb128, yeah, I think so
[10:14] <popey> seb128: reverted to stock wily unity, rebooted, logged in (had a separate issue I will mention in a moment) screen config changed, screen freaked out, switched desktops, desktop back to working!
[10:14] <popey> So yes, switching workspaces _does_ work around the issue
[10:17] <seb128> good
[10:17] <seb128> popey, thanks for testing
[10:17] <seb128> popey, I bet you wish you knew about that workaround before ;-)
[10:18] <popey> Yes. I was thinking exactly that :)
[10:19] <seb128> well at least it's good, we have a workaround and andyrock has a fix
[10:19] <seb128> just suck to be willcooke who seems to have a different issue :-/
[10:19] <popey> willcooke: does switching workspaces not "fix" it for you?
[10:19] <willcooke> it didn't, but let me try again now...
[10:20]  * willcooke saves everything first
[10:21] <popey> Well, seb128 has made my day. So that's good. Thanks seb128 :)
[10:21] <seb128> popey, yw!
[10:23] <willcooke> that's a no then
[10:23] <willcooke> although, actually vt1 is fine
[10:24] <seb128> :-/
[10:26] <willcooke> mine smells like drivers to me
[10:27] <popey> mine smelled like drivers too
[10:28] <popey> did you not test vanilla 14.04 from a stick?
[10:28] <popey> pre-HWE stack?
[10:28] <willcooke> well, seb128 and I tried a load of old kernels
[10:28] <willcooke> I can't remember what we found out though.  I'll try again later
[10:28] <seb128> the iso from usb didn't have the issue
[10:29] <seb128> we didn't find what update started it by doing updates of xorg&co and restarting session
[10:29] <seb128> we also tried to boot old kernel from the installed laptop
[10:29] <seb128> but those didn't fix it
[10:30] <willcooke> I should try andyrock's fix then, just out of interest
[10:31] <andyrock> hey
[10:31] <andyrock> well that patch applies to 15.10 (15.04 too?)
[10:31] <willcooke> but not 14.04 right?
[10:32] <andyrock> well you should try to merge hikiko's branches
[10:32] <andyrock> then my fix
[10:32] <andyrock> and see what happens
[10:32] <andyrock> or just try to reproduce the problem on 15.10 + that fix
[10:33] <willcooke> this sounds like something for the weekend
[10:33] <andyrock> if you can't reproduce the problem anymore we can try to build a ppa with all the patches
[10:33] <andyrock> to test on 14.04
[10:33] <andyrock> and see what happens
[10:34] <hikiko> yes you need the save_state() restore_state() otherwise the unity transformations will be applied in all running compiz plugins causing weird artifacts
[10:34] <hikiko> and then andyrock's fix
[10:34] <andyrock> makes sense
[10:34] <andyrock> I'll try to build a ppa in the weekend
[10:44] <willcooke> thanks
[10:44] <popey> andyrock: dunno if it's related, but when I tried your patched unity, if I changed the desktop config (via pulling my laptop out of the docking station) the display froze
[10:44] <popey> if I plug it back in again it recovers
[10:45] <seb128> Laney, larsu, lol, I found how to use youtube in totem, usability fail imho
[10:45] <popey> its not the whole system that freezes, because on the frozen laptop display if I "click" (blindly) things, then it catches up, or does them without showing me the result, so when I plug it back into the display, I suddenly see all the apps I launched
[10:47] <seb128> Laney, larsu, it's not in the channels, you need to be on the "videos" tab, type something on the keyboard and then click on the "filesystem" label on the right of the text entry, which is a combo, and pick "youtube"
[10:47] <seb128> I wonder if I'm just a dumb user
[10:47] <seb128> or if that's really non obvious
[10:48] <andyrock> popey so without the patch what's the problem?
[10:49] <andyrock> it's the same right?
[10:49] <popey> without the patch the screen goes crazy when I change monitor config
[10:49] <popey> with the patch the screen freezes
[10:49] <popey> will test some more though.
[10:50] <larsu> seb128: that is really dumb
[10:50]  * larsu is off for lunch though
[10:50] <seb128> larsu, lunch is a good idea, I should do the same
[10:50] <seb128> larsu, enjoy ;-)
[10:50] <larsu> :)
[10:50] <larsu> thanks
[10:51] <andyrock> k thanks i'll try to test it too
[11:10] <Trevinho> willcooke: OSB... I've fixed the bugs in nux, I'm almost done now... But there's one last bug in nux that I'd need to clear
[11:10] <willcooke> Trevinho, coolio, thanks.  You're already on the case
[11:12]  * Trevinho finally got a silo!
[11:13] <didrocks> Trevinho: happy siloing :)
[11:14] <popey> willcooke: did the new font land on the desktop?
[11:15] <willcooke> popey, heh - which one?
[11:15] <popey> ours :) Ubuntu Font.
[11:15]  * Trevinho heard that they were testing it yet?
[11:15] <willcooke> right, it's not quite that easy
[11:15] <popey> oh okay.
[11:15] <willcooke> v. 0.83 of the Ubuntu font is release which includes fixes for Mac
[11:15] <popey> just noticed my desktop font looks horrid, and wondered if that was why
[11:16] <popey> probably just my eyes :)
[11:16] <willcooke> popey, humm, worth looking in to.  Can you do a screen grab?
[11:20] <popey> willcooke: http://i.imgur.com/zxuuUJa.png
[11:22] <willcooke> popey, humm, doesn't look quite as smooth as it should does it
[11:22] <willcooke> popey, what about the dash?
[11:22] <popey> same
[11:22] <popey> i have logged in to other (non-unity) desktops on this laptop recently, wonder if that's messed my font settings up
[11:22] <popey> nvm, will have a play
[11:23] <willcooke> popey, let me check my vanilla 15.10 vm...
[11:35] <tkamppeter> hi, I have a problem with bug 1449875. I could fix it by adding a dependency to Ghostscript but the new dependency recommends tons of unneeded packages. Do all these get installed then, too?
[11:47] <popey> willcooke: do you still have an iphone kicking around?
[11:48] <popey> the #4 crash on errors.u.c is upower, on 14.04 (which you're running?) I have a theory that it only happens when an iphone is left plugged in and charging off the computer - i see it here on my 15.10 system.
[11:49] <popey> I can tell upower has crashed because I get randomly sent to the lock screen while I'm working, and my machine slows as apport does its dance :)
[11:50]  * davidcalle reports popey for not using the Ubuntu font
[11:51]  * popey runs away to the French Foreign Legion
[11:55] <Sweet5hark> seb128: libreoffice 5.0.2 for wily building in ppa (and locally) fwiw ...
[12:43] <seb128> Sweet5hark, great
[12:43] <seb128> Sweet5hark, did you get the ffe approved?
[12:44] <Sweet5hark> for 5.0.2? not yet
[12:45] <Sweet5hark> seb128: building != finished building for libreoffice. and I need build logs for a FFE, dont I?
[12:45] <seb128> Sweet5hark, ignore me, I was asking about 5.0 but it looks like that landed during my holidays
[12:46] <Sweet5hark> seb128: yes, it did. kudos to cyphermox for that.
[12:46] <seb128> Sweet5hark, now you have more sponsors for the DMB application, right? ;-)
[12:46] <Sweet5hark> seb128: he wondered how it can be that Im not either drunk or in a asylum when seeing the packaging.
[12:46] <seb128> lol
[12:47] <Sweet5hark> seb128: hopefully insane packages need insane maintainers.
[12:47] <Sweet5hark> (there is supposed to be a dot between hopefully and insane)
[12:55] <willcooke> popey, I do have an iphone kicking around
[12:56] <popey> willcooke: bet upower crashes if you leave it plugged into your ubuntu laptop :)
[12:57] <willcooke> popey, will find cables and such and try it
[12:57] <popey> ta
[13:00] <willcooke> hi aquarius
[13:00] <aquarius> willcooke, hey
[13:01] <willcooke> seb128, do you happen to know off the top of your head if any ibus or fcitx changes landed in 14.04 recently?
[13:01] <willcooke> aquarius, are these keyboard oddities limited to Unity and/or Gtk apps, Qt apps?
[13:02] <aquarius> OK. Ctrl-arrows fail in Telegram (which is Qt), gnome-terminal, xchat-gnome (Gtk)
[13:02] <aquarius> as does ctrl-f
[13:03] <aquarius> ctrl-s works fine in xchat-gnome
[13:03] <willcooke> and xev shows that ctrl is being seen?
[13:03] <willcooke> Trevinho, is Unity doing any extra keyboard grabbing in 14.04 recently?
[13:04] <willcooke> aquarius, you dont happen to have another keyboard kicking around?
[13:04] <seb128> willcooke, not that I know, why?
[13:04] <seb128> tkamppeter, don't add that depends/recommends if it pulls too much in
[13:04] <seb128> willcooke, I guess for what aquarius is asking
[13:04] <seb128> aquarius, do you get the issue in a guest session?
[13:04] <aquarius> willcooke, yup; xev shows ctrl is being seen, and as noted some other ctrl combinations work, so the key's not broken
[13:05] <willcooke> seb128, aquarius is suddenly having strange kbd issues, ctrl-arrows stopped working, ctrl-f stopped working
[13:05] <willcooke> seb128, yeah
[13:05] <aquarius> another keyboard -- you mean, another physical keyboard? Um. Somewhere :)
[13:05] <seb128> willcooke, do you see the same?
[13:05] <aquarius> guest session: good idea, I'll try that.
[13:05] <willcooke> aquarius, yeah, I dunno, would be good to rule that out
[13:05] <willcooke> seb128, nope, everything is fine here
[13:07] <aquarius> confirmed: I see the same issue in a guest session
[13:07] <willcooke> daflip
[13:08] <seb128> well at least it's not user config
[13:08] <willcooke> aquarius, do you happen to have a spare USB stick kicking around.  Would be interesting to see if a live 14.04 or 15.04 do that too
[13:09] <aquarius> and the other ctrl key on the keyboard exhibits the same problem too, having just thought of tsting that
[13:09] <aquarius> so it's not that someone hexed the ctrl key with "now you hate F and the arrows" :)
[13:10] <desrt> seb128: this is not strictly a behaviour change
[13:10] <desrt> seb128: the old glib would have done this too if it was "fast enough" (or if you moved the file slow enough)
[13:10] <desrt> but the thing where events were always delayed 1s means that you never got the chance to see that before
[13:10] <seb128> desrt, in practice it is though, enough to make working code behave differently
[13:10] <desrt> so now that event reporting is faster, it makes sense of course that you have a chance to see more events
[13:10] <seb128> hum, k
[13:11] <desrt> i'd argue that the existing code wasn't _really_ working because there were cases where it could have still failed (like if the fs was super-heavy-loaded or something)
[13:11] <desrt> although in practice, i have to agree with you :(
[13:11] <seb128> same argument that the gsettings change some cycles ago
[13:11] <desrt> but i'm really not sure what we should do to fix it....
[13:11] <seb128> yeah, dunno either
[13:11] <desrt> well, this one was weaker, and had an easy fix
[13:11] <seb128> I guess we can fix unity, which is where we noticed it and too bad for other potential users
[13:12] <desrt> (which i still didn't do, i admit... i still think people should just "fix" their code) :)
[13:12] <desrt> but this case.... really, we fixed a bug that we had before, which is that events were being missed
[13:12] <desrt> (due to the mandatory delay)
[13:13] <seb128> yeah, same good old "apps relying on the runtime behaviour, not the theorical one"
[13:13] <desrt> which is fair enough
[13:13] <desrt> TDD is a thing, right?
[13:13] <desrt> nobody writes code to be correct anyway -- only to pass tests
[13:13] <desrt> because the first way is apparently impossible
[13:13] <desrt> btw: good morning :)
[13:13] <seb128> good morning, happy friday ;-)
[13:14] <desrt> hells ya friday
[13:14] <seb128> I hope you had some coffee already before jumping on IRC§
[13:14] <desrt> gotta go to the airport and rent a car tomorrow
[13:14] <seb128> !
[13:14] <desrt> actually, i didn't
[13:14] <desrt> and there's a story about that, and i _should_
[13:14] <seb128> you should ;-)
[13:14] <desrt> basically, i owe money to the store downstairs
[13:14] <desrt> went yesterday and tried to pay with my credit card, which was cancelled
[13:15] <desrt> (new one was in the mail and they got too 'excited' about transfering the account too soon)
[13:15] <desrt> so i couldn't pay... so i really do have to go down today to get a coffee.... and pay for two :)
[13:15] <desrt> bbiab
[13:15] <seb128> enjoy! :-)
[13:16] <aquarius> OK, crisis over
[13:16] <aquarius> It is the keyboard's fault
[13:16] <aquarius> Using a different keyboard; works fine
[13:16] <seb128> good
[13:17] <aquarius> well, it's good from the point of view of the Ubuntu desktop team
[13:17] <willcooke> phew
[13:17] <aquarius> er!
[13:17] <willcooke> sucks to be aquarius
[13:17] <willcooke> ;p
[13:18] <aquarius> it was good
[13:18] <willcooke> aquarius, Logitech k720
[13:18] <aquarius> but this one keeps failing
[13:18] <aquarius> keys don't register sometimes
[13:18] <aquarius> which I suppose might be *this* keyboard also failing
[13:18] <aquarius> willcooke, the broken one is a Logitech K520 :)
[13:18] <aquarius> I like logitech stuff
[13:20] <aquarius> all the spacing is wrong on this one and everything :)
[13:20] <aquarius> still, things work now at least.
[13:56] <desrt> so lol.  got my new 20Ah usb battery yesterday, plugged it in overnight to charge
[13:56] <desrt> ...it's still charging
[13:58] <Laney> oh yeah, the unity fix
[13:58]  * Laney buildz
[14:13] <tkamppeter> seb128, and as I do not know whether it pulls to much in, I am asking.
[14:40] <Laney> ummmm
[14:41] <Laney> why do I have some kind of fcitx indicator in a wily live session?
[14:42] <Laney> happyaron: any clue?
[14:50] <seb128> Laney, "some kind"?
[14:51] <seb128> Laney, what locale?
[14:51] <Laney> it's a tux penguin
[14:51] <Laney> en_US I guess, didn't change anything
[14:51] <seb128> ps aux | grep fcitx?
[14:52] <Laney> fcitx-qimpanel?
[14:52] <Laney> it's in /etc/xdg/autostart
[14:54] <Laney> if I kill that it gets replaced with a normal fcitx one
[14:54] <Laney> then kill fcitx and both gone
[14:57] <seb128> I lost track, I though we wouldn't install fcitx by default by pull them through langpack/language-selector?
[14:58] <seb128> we probably need GunnarHj and/or happyaron for the details
[14:58] <Laney> it's meant to be shipped as a .deb on the iso so that you can install it if you have internet
[14:58] <Laney> but not actually installed
[14:58] <Laney> not working right anyway
[14:58] <seb128> if you have "no" internet?
[14:58] <Laney> ye
[14:59] <seb128> k
[14:59] <seb128> so why is it installed? ;-)
[14:59] <seb128> but yeah, seems buggy
[14:59] <seb128> please open a bug?
[14:59] <seb128> or
[14:59] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fcitx/+bug/1489717
[14:59] <Laney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fcitx/+bug/1489717
[14:59] <Laney> ha
[15:00]  * seb128 assigns, High, tag rls-w-incoming
[15:00] <seb128> Laney, thanks for pointing it out!
[15:03] <Laney> quality triaging
[15:03] <Laney> would report bug again
[15:05] <Laney> maybe I'm wrong about how it was meant to be installed in the iso
[15:05] <Laney> it might be that it should be installed there and removed after if you don't have chinese
[15:05] <Laney> can't quite remember the discussion
[15:05] <Laney> but if so then fixing that bug would be enough
[15:07] <seb128> yeah
[15:07] <Laney> I saw that it was me who merged the change into the seeds
[15:07] <Laney> and thought hey that guy is usually right, it's probably *me* that is wrong
[15:07] <Laney> :P
[16:09] <seb128> desrt, larsu, Laney, can any of you remind me the environment variable that can be set to see the gdbus traffic?
[16:11] <Laney> G_DBUS_DEBUG=all
[16:14] <desrt> =message is better
[16:14] <desrt> all is too verbose
[16:17] <seb128> Laney, desrt, thanks
[16:17] <seb128> brb, session restart
[16:18] <larsu> desrt: it's all too verbose
[16:19] <Laney> no YOU'RE too verbose
[16:20]  * larsu shuts up
[16:23] <Laney> :(
[16:44]  * willcooke switches the light on
[16:44] <willcooke> it's not even 6pm yet, and its too dark
[16:44] <willcooke> :'(
[16:46] <Trevinho> oh... so sad... :(
[16:46] <Trevinho> willcooke: ah, you asked me about new grabs in 14.04 somewhere?  But well, I don't think anything changed recently
[16:47] <willcooke> Trevinho, s'ok it was aquarius dodgy keyboard all along ;)
[16:47] <aquarius> I am exceedingly sad about this, since now I've gotta buy a new keyboard
[16:47] <aquarius> and I liked my logitech one
[16:48] <Trevinho> oh, well mechanical ones are the new old stuff :)
[16:48] <willcooke> buy a new one the same
[16:48] <aquarius> trying to decide whether I should ask G+ and get a billion answers to make myself feel popular
[16:48] <Trevinho> I'd just love to get a full keyboard with trackpad... but lenovo doesn't care about that :(
[16:49] <willcooke> aquarius, screw that, go on eBuyer, wireless keyboards, sort my popularity, done
[16:49] <aquarius> willcooke, but... this one's bust. This is not encouraging me to buy another. especially since I've only had it 18 months!
[16:49] <willcooke> ah, I have a picture of your keyboard round here somewhere....
[16:50] <willcooke> popey sent it to me...
[16:50] <willcooke> http://i.imgur.com/ZaSx2eu.jpg
[16:51] <aquarius> blimey, that's horrid
[16:51] <Trevinho> Speaking of membrane keyboards, I'm experiencing lot of pleasure with this one http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/wireless-illuminated-keyboard-k800?wt.mc_id=global_social-k800_redirect_FY11
[16:51] <aquarius> my keyboard is not like that :)
[17:02] <robert_ancell> desrt, decided not to come in to XDC today then?
[17:05] <desrt> robert_ancell: no.  had too much work to do
[17:06]  * desrt has been dealing with travel, emails, etc. for most of the morning
[17:12] <willcooke> happy weekend all
[17:12] <willcooke> safe travels robert_ancell
[17:20] <Laney> happy weekend!
[17:20] <desrt> Laney: take care!
[17:20] <larsu> have fun!
[17:21] <mterry> seb128, this bluetooth fix...
[17:22] <seb128> mterry, yes?
[17:22] <mterry> seb128, am I supposed to see a dialog when trying to pair?  I still don't see one  :(
[17:22] <mterry> i mean, a pin prompt
[17:22] <mterry> seb128, I install the package and then restart the control center
[17:23] <seb128> mterry, yes, for me when I select the keyboard in settings and do next I get pincode to enter
[17:23] <mterry> humph
[17:25] <mterry> seb128, well the code change seems similar to the old one.  But I don't know if I should comment in the bug, since it doesn't seem to change things for me.  Maybe my keyboard has additional special problems
[17:25] <mterry> comment in the MP I meant
[17:25] <seb128> mterry, I Cced you mainly so you could try
[17:25] <seb128> you might have more issues
[17:25] <seb128> feel free to ignore the mp if that doesn't do it for you
[17:26] <seb128> mterry, I get that with the patch here, http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/bluetooth.png
[17:26] <seb128> where it was spinning/failing before
[17:26] <mterry> seb128, you are living the dream
[17:26] <seb128> lol
[17:26] <mterry> seb128, now you're just bragging  :)
[17:26] <seb128> :-(
[17:26] <mterry> haha
[17:27] <mterry> seb128, that's a nice dialog though
[17:27] <seb128> mterry, you can try to  G_DBUS_DEBUG=all bluetooth-wizard
[17:27] <seb128> and see if there is anything useful in the log
[17:28] <mterry>  >>>> METHOD ERROR org.bluez.Error.Rejected
[17:28] <mterry>       message 'Rejected bluetoothd generated PIN code'
[17:28] <mterry>       in response to org.bluez.Agent1.DisplayPinCode()
[17:28] <mterry>       on object /org/bluez/agent/gnome
[17:28] <mterry> seb128, ^
[17:28] <mterry> seems bad
[17:28] <seb128> yeah
[17:29] <seb128> unsure why, but it's a different method that the one used on my keyboard (DisplayPasskey)
[17:33] <mterry> fascinating
[17:33] <seb128> mterry, I'm about to call it a week, unsure what's going on but I can try having a look on monday if I see something in that code (a bit difficult to debug without device to test though)
[17:33] <seb128> mterry, did you find something?
[17:33] <mterry> seb128, my keyboard is a weird combo keyboard/touchpad
[17:33]  * Trevinho probably got nux under control to get the new scrollbars not to be badly rendered...
[17:33] <mterry> seb128, don't worry about it, go eod
[17:33] <seb128> Trevinho, great
[17:33] <mterry> seb128, no didn't find any thing, just slowly responding to your message  :)
[17:33] <seb128> mterry, I'm still interested if you figure out something so please comment on the bug if you do ;-)
[17:34] <mterry> seb128, yar
[17:34] <seb128> have a nice w.e everyone!
[17:34] <mterry> bye!
[17:34] <Trevinho> yah... using nux is always like guessing random numbers
[17:47]  * Trevinho leaves for WE


[15:14] <newz2000> some people are saying that google is not returning results for pages on the ubuntu wiki
[17:34] <jpds> newz2000: Working for me.
[20:25] <MT-> newz2000: perhaps they didn't give google enough time to indexx?
[20:25] <MT-> Who was talking about the module port to D6?
[20:25] <MT-> I'd like to help
[20:26] <MT-> newz2000: anything new about the pointer?
[23:37] <SiDi> newz2000: someone on identi.ca reports that links on http://www.ubuntu.com/dell are broken
[23:37] <newz2000> thanks SiDi, I will check it out


[00:44] <RAOF> racarr_: Enjoy your +1 on cursor-spike.
[01:37] <AlbertA> looks like the landing ci is stuck?
[01:37] <AlbertA> there's 4 MP's ready to land for the last 10 hours and they haven't landed yet
[01:37] <kgunn> ack, will see if someone in ci can kick the coke machine
[01:38] <duflu> AlbertA: Umm, happy final release eve... ?
[01:38] <duflu> That shouldn't block anything though
[01:38] <AlbertA> duflu: oh is that what it is?
[01:38] <duflu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
[01:39] <duflu> Probably not related. People are usually working furiously on SRU-0/SRU-1 for their various projects around now
[01:39] <duflu> which means blocking is unexpected
[01:40] <AlbertA> kgunn: so for the non-blocking swapbuffers I believe the best course of action is to avoid
[01:41] <AlbertA> kgunn: starting the display buffer compositor threads during display off
[01:43] <kgunn> AlbertA: so does that just end up making it an order of operation issue, and can you guarantee display on prior to starting disp-buff-comp ?
[01:44] <AlbertA> kgunn: well currently the responsibility lies on whoever is changing the display configuration
[01:44] <kgunn> usc ?
[01:44] <AlbertA> kgunn: they need to make sure the compositor is stopped before changing the display configuration
[01:44] <AlbertA> kgunn: yes usc in this case
[01:45] <AlbertA> kgunn: the main issue will be that the compositor will have to have indication of the display power state somehow
[01:45] <AlbertA> kgunn: so either it's start method takes a hint parameter
[01:46] <AlbertA> kgunn: or the compositor interface exposes some method that makes sense for display power off
[01:46] <kgunn> AlbertA: right...i would think you'd want more of a handshake, hint "i need to know when you've actually stopped/started"
[01:46] <AlbertA> kgunn: well you want the compositor to only start the buffer consuming thread only
[01:47] <kgunn> mmm, yeah, maybe it does...
[01:47] <AlbertA> kgunn: the hard part is not exposing those internal implementation details
[01:47] <kgunn> well it is the "display" buffer compositor
[01:47] <kgunn> so it does imply it can "know" display stuff
[01:48] <kgunn> ok...still on irc on my other machine...trying xmir again :)
[01:50] <kgunn_> RAOF, ok...ssh'd into my other machine which is now a black screen on xmir attempt
[01:51] <RAOF> kgunn_: Good, good. If you restart lightdm, does anything happen?
[01:51] <kgunn_> one note, early today i reinstalled xserver-xorg-*, dri2 wondering if that would cleanly return any default conf files that might have been hosed....(e.g. apt-get install --reinstall..) is that true ? would it cleanly take care of conf files?
[01:51] <kgunn_> RAOF, so i just restarted lightdm, nada
[01:51] <kgunn_> just black screen
[01:53] <kgunn_> lightdm.log says waiting for signal from xserver, Process 8238 terminated with signal 6
[01:54] <RAOF> SIGABRT is unlikely to end in pleasantness.
[01:54] <RAOF> What sayeth /var/log/Xorg.0.log?
[01:55] <AlbertA> kgunn_: actually what I've said is already taken care of by https://code.launchpad.net/~afrantzis/mir/expose-display-buffer-only-for-power-mode-on/+merge/214758
[01:55] <AlbertA> kgunn_: I wonder why that's not the case...
[01:56] <kgunn_> RAOF, so it seems to go thru some display config checking & updates...then
[01:57] <kgunn_> just before backtrace its [  9484.653] (II) Putting surface on output 9
[01:57] <kgunn_> [  9484.653] (EE) Backtrace:
[01:57] <kgunn_> [  9484.653] (EE) 0: /usr/bin/X (xorg_backtrace+0x48) [0x7fd14470ec48]
[01:57] <kgunn_> [  9484.653] (EE) 1: /usr/bin/X (0x7fd144566000+0x1ac939) [0x7fd144712939]
[01:57] <kgunn_> [  9484.653] (EE) 2: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x7fd143663000+0x10340) [0x7fd143673340]
[01:57] <kgunn_> [  9484.653] (EE) 3: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (pthread_mutex_lock+0x4) [0x7fd14366d414]
[01:58] <kgunn_> ...is this some stupid "hybris got installed" thing ?
[01:58] <duflu> kgunn_: Only if you have hybris installed :)
[01:59] <kgunn_> hmmm, so libhybris isn;t, but ...libhybris-common1 is ?
[01:59] <duflu> kgunn_: Yeah apparently that much is safe
[01:59] <duflu> And required, for some reason
[02:00] <kgunn_> ok...everytime i see pthread's i think libhybris...just cause of the tegra thing
[02:02] <RAOF> Harumph.
[02:02] <duflu> kgunn_: When that happens the path name will contain "hybris" so it's OK
[02:02] <RAOF> That's *all* the backtrace?
[02:02] <duflu> Also it will only apply to lib*GL
[02:03] <kgunn_> the whole thing is https://pastebin.canonical.com/108605/
[02:05] <RAOF> Hm. Died in mir_surface_is_valid?
[02:10] <RAOF> So I guess what's happening here is that XMir is getting a null MirSurface* and calling mir_surface_is_valid on it.
[02:11] <AlbertA> kgunn_: so it turned out I was not updating the mir platform libraries on my device...:)
[02:11] <AlbertA> kgunn_: volume keys work just fine now
[02:11] <kgunn_> ah man!
[02:12] <duflu> RAOF: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1248474
[02:13] <RAOF> Another well-known cleanup bug!
[02:14] <kgunn_> this is the part where duflu throws me "that  look"
[02:15] <kgunn_> i don't mean to question the experts...but, i'm on a mac/intel w/ integ gfx...wouldn't think it would be a consistent prob
[02:15] <kgunn_> others would've complained ?
[02:16] <RAOF> I would have thought so, yes.
[02:21] <AlbertA> can anybody else download branches through bzr? Getting connection issues
[02:21] <RAOF> Also, how *can* we get a null MirSurface? The callback is called from Surface::created() thusly: callback(this, context);
[02:23] <kgunn_> AlbertA, fails here too
[02:31] <kgunn_> RAOF, so if its really a mir thing, then i should fail to launch a demo_server
[02:31] <kgunn_> right ?
[02:31] <RAOF> kgunn_: Probably, yes.
[03:13] <kgunn_> RAOF, hmmm...got majorly distracted, but ok, server seems to launch, but client does fail w a seg fault
[03:18] <kgunn_> and gdb backtrace showing same mir_surface_is_valid
[03:21] <kgunn_> ok...heading to bed, maybe some more tomorrow
[06:33] <RAOF> Bah! That's really annoying.
[06:34] <RAOF> Stupid race-condition testing!
[09:42] <alf_> greyback: Is this still needed? https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1226778
[09:43] <greyback> alf_: I think calling stop() twice doesn't cause a crash any more, so that bug is more a nice-to-have.
[09:44] <alf_> greyback: ok, marking as "wishlist" then
[14:56] <kgunn> alf_: AlbertA greyback ...ok, unity-mir, qtubuntu rebuilt...
[14:56] <alf_> kgunn: ok updating
[14:56]  * greyback too
[14:59] <alf_> kgunn: greyback: what do the updates fix/improve?
[14:59] <greyback> alf_: the qtubuntu change will have Qt client apps stop rendering as soon as they are off-screen (well, when they get lifecycle events)
[15:00] <alf_> greyback: ah, great
[15:00] <greyback> alf_: I have instructions in a comment in https://code.launchpad.net/~gerboland/qtubuntu/surface-visible-hidden-side-channel/+merge/215884 to show how you can test it
[15:00] <greyback> I'd appreciate a third party check...
[15:02] <kgunn> will update also ...(when/if i can stop the irc pinging)
[15:03] <alf_> kgunn: kdub: racarr_: stand up
[15:08] <alf_> greyback: confirmed that printDate.qml stop requesting buffers, but still keeps printing to stdout with latest silo builds
[15:08] <greyback> alf_: that's perfect
[15:09] <greyback> alf_: the printing is from the GUI thread, which can continue working unblocked
[15:09] <greyback> so the rendering thread has shut down cleanly
[15:09] <greyback> (sorry I always fall into the Qt terminology. GUI thread = even handling thread)
[15:10] <greyback> event
[15:10] <alf_> greyback: seems so, I am running with MIR_CLIENT_RPC_REPORT=log and see that the client stops requesting buffers
[15:11] <greyback> alf_: yes, sounds right
[15:11] <greyback> \o/
[15:11] <greyback> \o\
[15:11] <greyback>  /o/
[15:18] <alf_> greyback: exercising? ;)
[15:18] <alf_> _o_
[15:19] <alf_> \o/
[15:19] <alf_> _o_
[15:19] <alf_> \o/
[15:19] <greyback> lol
[15:19] <greyback> just happy this is working :)
[15:39] <alf_> greyback: kgunn: hmm, the falling-letters app freezes when you turn the screen of and back on again
[15:40] <alf_> greyback: kgunn: but other apps (e.g. sudoku) work fine, so perhaps that app is at fault?
[15:42] <greyback> alf_: confirmed. will investigate
[15:45] <alf_> greyback: the camera-app freezes too, but the clock doesn't, perhaps it has to do with whether there is some animation/app update going on when the screen is turned off (just wild guess)
[15:46] <kgunn> kdub: if you do happen to try xmir...i'd be interested to hear your results...and _after_ confirming it works, if you could try the mir/usc in ppa:ci-train-ppa-service/landing-003
[15:46] <kgunn> that would be interesting
[15:47] <kdub> kgunn, i'm set up to try the demo server/shell pretty quickly, was that broken too?
[15:47] <kgunn> alf_: greyback ...is there a chance here the apps aren't expecting the expose event ?
[15:47] <greyback> alf_: that shouldn't be the case, most animations run on the unblocked thread. But yeah the render thread is blocked for dropping letters, need to figure out why
[15:47] <kgunn> kdub: demoshell/client was broken for me yes
[15:48] <kgunn> agian...it might be me
[15:48] <kdub> i'll try that out real quick.. a few minutes
[15:48] <kgunn> greyback: do you know if dropping letters and camera are pure qml ? (i would suspect dropping letters is for sure)
[15:49] <greyback> kgunn: it is pure qml
[15:49] <kgunn> mmm there goes that theory
[15:49] <greyback> so I must have something wrong in qtubuntu
[15:50] <kgunn> or bug in qt itself...
[15:50] <greyback> I'll assume I'm at fault first :)
[15:52] <racarr_> even if the expose event wasnt working apps should be rendering out of control and not blocking right?
[15:52] <racarr_> (maybe this has evolved since I briefly understood it in london ;))
[15:53] <greyback> indeed. But I've managed to do this in qtubuntu before, it sometimes managed to lie to the renderer and renderer gets locked up
[15:55] <racarr_> -.-
[15:57] <alf_> greyback: in case it is helpful, here is the client rpc log for mir when running dropping-letters: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7262240/
[15:57] <alf_> greyback: Result id:0 responses are events
[15:58] <AlbertA> kgunn: just checked mir/devel on my haswell laptop, demo server/client works well here
[16:00] <greyback> alf_: is definitely my problem, render thread not shutting down correctly, need to determine why...
[16:01] <kgunn> ta AlbertA
[16:25] <kgunn> so when you play video, it keeps playing for about 2 secs when you hit the power button....and then immediately restarts for ~1 second after unlock
[16:25] <kgunn> even tho, you cant see it, but stops again, until you bring it into focus
[16:26] <kgunn> oops...ok, browser locked up
[16:27] <kgunn> greyback: alf_ ^
[16:27] <kgunn> ...i abused it several times before lockup
[16:28] <kgunn> (and only the browser, shell & other apps still respond)
[16:32] <greyback_> kgunn: I've something that I think will fix it. Have just pushed it to the qtubuntu branch. Am building package
[16:32] <greyback_> (locally)
[16:35] <kgunn> ack
[16:35] <kgunn> dude...watching the "i think we're alone now" trailer over and over is strarting to creep me out
[16:39] <racarr_> ...
[16:39] <racarr_> :p
[16:39] <greyback_> kgunn: could you please test http://people.canonical.com/~gerboland/qtubuntu-android_0.54+14.04.20140402-0ubuntu1_armhf.deb
[16:40] <greyback_> and see if it fixes the blocking issue
[16:42] <josharenson> Is there an easy way to change the background color of mir_server_demo_shell? I think I found a bug, and changing the color to, say red, would make identifying it a bit easier.
[16:42] <kgunn> greyback_: i will...stepping out for a quick bite
[16:42] <kdub> josharenson, search for glClearColor in the examples/ code... i beleive its set to grey there
[16:42] <josharenson> kdub: ack
[16:42] <greyback_> kgunn: ok. I'm heading out for dinner, so will be away a few hours. Please email with the verdict
[16:45] <kgunn> lunch date running late...lemme see if i can do quickly
[16:49] <greyback_> man the new browser is good
[16:49] <kgunn> greyback_: nope.....same experience
[16:50] <greyback_> kgunn: with dropping letters even?
[16:50] <kgunn> sorry...just video
[16:50] <kgunn> lemme check dropping letters
[16:51] <kgunn> cool!...time out worked on video...same little hiccups
[16:52] <greyback_> you play video from the video scope right? Why not working for me...
[16:52] <kgunn> yep, i'm playing the "i think we're alone now"
[16:52] <greyback_> ** (process:2021): WARNING **: Unable to dispatch url 'https://videosearch.ubuntu.com/v0/redirect?s=TPzN98RZt0eNHhrYvplj9d3_WtKAbOSC3wun2Q%3D%3D&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvodo.net%2Fitwan':GDBus.Error:com.canonical.URLDispatcher.BadURL: URL 'https://videosearch.ubuntu.com/v0/redirect?s=TPzN98RZt0eNHhrYvplj9d3_WtKAbOSC3wun2Q%3D%3D&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvodo.net%2Fitwan' is not handleable by the URL Dispatcher
[16:52] <kgunn> no hang on dropping letters....
[16:53] <greyback_> ok, improvement
[16:53] <greyback_> though I notice dropping letters not pausing when we switch away from it
[17:00]  * greyback_ has to go
[17:09] <josharenson> if MIR_BYPASS is unset, then bypass is enabled?
[17:20] <kdub> 1) that's becoming MIR_SERVER_BYPASS very soon and 2 yes, default is on
[17:20] <kdub> its also becoming a --help option soon, so it will be clearer wh at the default is
[18:16] <dandrader> "what():  error during hwc prepare(). rc = ffffffff"
[18:16] <dandrader> is that known on the N4? ^
[18:28] <kdub> dandrader, not known
[18:30] <dandrader> oh, that's surprising
[18:31] <dandrader> happens when I turn off/on the display, pressing the power button
[18:31] <dandrader> backtrace is useless as usual
[18:47] <kgunn> camako: ^ might be an intersting one
[18:47] <kgunn> what josharenson found
[18:47] <kdub> dandrader, yeah, I know there's some synchronization issues with the compositor/display power on/off being worked on
[18:48] <josharenson> kgunn: ?
[18:48] <josharenson> kdub: that sounds like what I see... flickering/tearing when starting fullscreen app
[18:48] <camako> kgunn: abt bkgrnd color?
[18:48] <kgunn> sorry josharenson, meant dandrader
[18:49] <josharenson> ah
[18:49] <kgunn> camako: sorry, meant the hwc prepare issue
[18:49] <kdub> josharenson, well, bypass is only on the mesa platform, is that where you're seeing it?
[18:49] <kgunn> as far as digging in code
[18:49] <camako> kgunn: o i see
[18:49] <josharenson> kdub: nope
[18:49] <camako> kgunn: perfect.. right up my alley :-)
[18:49] <josharenson> kdub: reason I wanted to change bkgnd color is i see the flickering when unity is running... want to isloate unity/mir
[18:50] <camako> dandrader: does it happen every time?
[18:50] <josharenson> kdub: working on other things now, but will file a bug when i investigate in a bit (my guess is it will be a dupe of something filed already... I'll read up)
[18:51] <dandrader> camako, started happening consistently after I restarted unity8 manually.
[18:51] <kdub> greyback and alf_ , they might know something more than me
[18:52] <camako> dandrader: let me poke around a bit
[19:20] <dandrader> camako, btw, I was using the "qt as mir compositor" branch of unity8, if that makes any difference...
[19:21] <camako> dandrader: I see
[19:26] <AlbertA> we are hitting some sort of timeout issue in CI for landings
[19:27] <AlbertA> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/mir-mediumtests-runner-mako/1116/console
[19:27] <AlbertA> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/mir-mediumtests-runner-mako/1117/console
[19:34] <AlbertA> kdub: ^ just pinged CI channel they are checking
[19:34] <kdub> oh, I just was poking through that, and retriggered the landing
[19:35] <AlbertA> yeah me too :)
[19:35] <kdub> sometimes that's a transient problem, other times, its a permanent problem
[19:37] <AlbertA> kdub: I guess the lander is getting hit hard today
[19:39] <kdub> AlbertA, yeah, those 4mps have been waiting a while
[19:39] <kgunn> camako: i think dandrader means this... https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/163nyfh_G90nzQnRdI7IYgrMH_0VdmesBju5jpb4wse0/edit
[19:41] <camako> kgunn: Thanks for the doc... I am looking through code atm...
[19:41] <AlbertA> dandrader: and you sure unity8 is started in nested mode? sounds like it's not
[19:42] <dandrader> AlbertA, hmm, that could be it!
[19:43]  * dandrader tries
[19:46] <dandrader> AlbertA, you got it.
[19:49] <AlbertA> dandrader: cool
[20:47] <kdub> i'm being brave
[20:47] <kdub> and cleaning up GLRenderer test
[20:49] <racarr_> IN TO THE DEPTHS!
[20:49] <anpok> yeah thats an interesting bunch of tests
[20:51] <kdub> it was maybe the second test ever written
[20:54] <racarr_> Ok...mostly finished...new ozone-mir (lots of upstream changes, quite helpful ones...just...all the code has to change)
[20:54] <racarr_> feeling kind of exhausted though, so going to switch to fixing this bug I found in introduce-scene-observer (or think might exist, rather the first task is writing a test)
[20:54] <racarr_> and then fiddle with xinput for a while.
[20:55] <racarr_> actually first im going to eat ice cream. haha. brb.
[21:59] <kgunn> AlbertA: camako....good grief this took me too long....could you review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mir/NonBlockingSwapTesting#preview
[22:00] <camako> kgunn: sure... how soon do you need it?
[22:02] <kgunn> just look it over for 5 min...for any big idea that maybe i missed
[22:03] <kgunn> pretty sure the notes are good...its editable :) so we can fix if it strikes you in 10 minutes not 5
[22:10] <camako> kgunn: looks good to me
[22:11] <camako> kgunn: but what do I know...
[22:11] <kgunn> camako: thank you mir-expert :P
[22:12] <camako> kgunn: at least wording is good and I was able to follow the text... Dunno abt the commands mentioned therein..
[22:12] <camako> kgunn: mir-expert... :-)
[22:20] <kgunn> greyback: earlier you said dropping letters isn't stopping...but it is, i think you just witness that a few more letters drop before sigstop
[22:21] <greyback> kgunn: right, but there are times that it's not sigstopped, yet it is not in front. Leaving the spread open for instance.
[22:22] <greyback> kgunn: oh, would you please kick qtubuntu to build the latest revision
[22:22] <kgunn> greyback: you bet
[22:22] <greyback> thanks


[09:13] <JonathanD> Morning
[09:56] <rmg51> Morning
[10:00] <JonathanD> Hey rmg51
[10:01] <rmg51> o/
[10:11] <JonathanD> schools are open.
[10:11] <JonathanD> Early dismiss?
[10:13] <rmg51> will it even snow?
[10:14] <rmg51> will the baby sitter make it home or have to sleep over...... again?
[10:33] <JonathanD> dunno
[10:48] <JonathanD> neighboring district just called early dismiss.
[11:33] <waltman> snow, schmow
[11:35] <waltman> Radnor Township schools are closed
[11:35] <rmg51> for free rides in a snow storm, just cal waltman ;-)
[11:35] <JonathanD> will do.
[11:36] <JonathanD> my mercury has kinda crap poor weather performance compared to the saturn.
[11:37] <JonathanD> so I might have to have waltman pick me up after work.
[11:38] <rmg51> waltman, be at my apt. by 5pm to drive the baby sitter home
[11:38] <waltman> Sadly Drexel is still open.
[11:39] <waltman> And unless things get cancelled later on today, I'll be there through my boss's 5-6:20 class tonight.
[11:39] <JonathanD> I'm planning on going in and seeing how things go.
[11:40] <rmg51> details, details
[11:41] <rmg51> the waltman snow storm taxi service cares nothing about those little details
[11:42] <waltman> That's not all the waltman snow storm taxi service cares nothing about :)
[12:54] <pvl1> waltman u teach?
[13:06] <waltman> https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~walt/se102/
[13:08] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, dogs, turkeys, hamsters and everything else
[13:46] <InHisName1> Gee with SE102 only 50% 'right'
[13:46] <InHisName1> gets you a passing grade ??? !! ??
[13:47] <InHisName1> Is this one of those push over classes ?
[14:20] <waltman> you need 55 for a gentleman's C- :)
[14:36] <lazypower> Morning Everyone
[14:37] <lazypower> LOL @ gentlemans C
[14:46] <pvl1> hm I can handle the course material methinks
[15:04] <MutantTurkey> waltman: what was the motivation for that scale??
[16:01] <InHisName1> waltman: do some frosh not understand that a 49 is WAY better than a 00 ?   Maybe same letter, but much more damaging to the average.
[20:17] <waltman> MutantTurkey: You'll have to ask Spiros. I didn't come up with it.
[20:18] <waltman> But if I had to guess, I'd say the motivation is that you can take everyone's scores and plug them into a spreadsheet, and it tells you what everyone's grade it.
[20:18] <waltman> is
[20:19] <MutantTurkey> ...
[20:19] <MutantTurkey> i mean like, why is 50% = C
[20:20] <MutantTurkey> instead of most schools where C = 73-76, C+ is 77-79, B- is 80-83 and so on
[20:21] <waltman> beats me. maybe because there are like 24 different ways to get points, and nearly impossible to get all of them.
[20:21] <MutantTurkey> ah
[20:21] <waltman> nothing's worth a lot of points other than the final, but there are a LOT of things that are graded
[20:22] <MutantTurkey> it's crazy the final is so much
[20:22] <MutantTurkey> all my classes were like that too
[20:23] <MutantTurkey> i wish it was more focused on your skills rather than mental lookup abilities. Giving assignments to me seems better than tests
[20:23] <waltman> the quizzes and finals are the only things we can be sure they worked on themselves
[20:23] <MutantTurkey> because you structure it that way
[20:23] <MutantTurkey> just make an in class 'test' assignment
[20:23] <MutantTurkey> in the final lab
[20:26] <waltman> I have to confess I'm appreciating the "easy to compute grades" thing after discovering I only had 48 hours after my final to submit the grades for 32 students.
[20:28] <SamuraiAlba> Good bacon to all!
[20:28] <waltman> mmm, bacon
[20:28] <MutantTurkey> lg flex is insane
[20:28] <waltman> lg flex?
[20:29] <MutantTurkey> curved phone
[20:31] <SamuraiAlba> I want a Moto X
[20:32] <SamuraiAlba> Though, I must say, my Cyanogen modded Nook HD+ 32GB is kid of sexxeh
[20:32] <MutantTurkey> i'm rocking the S4 stock
[20:32] <MutantTurkey> which is finee for me
[20:33] <SamuraiAlba> MuTu, how is everything?  Long tiome no see!
[20:33] <waltman> I didn't know you could Cyanogenify the nook. Does it still do all the Nooky stuff after that?
[20:34] <SamuraiAlba> No
[20:34] <SamuraiAlba> But I'm using a N2A card, so I can just pop it out and go back to Nook
[20:59] <waltman> I have an e-ink Nook. I believe it can be rooted, but I'm not sure why I'd want to.
[21:06] <rmg51> waltman, I have two Nooks
[21:06] <rmg51> I never rooted either one
[21:06] <rmg51> never wanted to
[21:19] <waltman> I wish they had a few text-friendly apps for it, something like instapaper.
[21:50] <rmg51> that is one reason to root it
[22:01] <SamuraiAlba> Dem snows.
[23:20] <InHisName1> Snow with bacon, yummy  SamuraiAlba ?
[23:30] <InHisName1> waltman:  I was in a Microcircuit design & fabrication classes.  The design final was handed out on first day.  "Open World" exam.  2 rules:  1. no teaming with classmates.  2. can't ask professor about exam contents.  The rest of the poplulation is open game along with ALL written materials are allowed to be consulted.   13 weeks to complete. Final was 75% of the grade.  Most took an incomplete and finished the next term.  --> design a 3 input nan
[23:34] <SamuraiAlba> Snow bad
[23:34] <SamuraiAlba> Spotify Awesome
[23:43] <InHisName1> Spotify some bacon for me......
[23:53] <waltman> InHisName1: Cute, but I'm not sure how well that would work for an intro freshman course
[23:55] <waltman> also, what's a nan?


[03:48] <kusum> cjwatson: Hello
[03:48] <kusum> anybody here who can tell me what a loopmounted system does>
[04:08] <kusum> got it
[14:00] <xivulon> ev please have look at http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=9037049&postcount=12
[17:34] <DGMurdockIII> i thnk there need to be a way to migrate you stuff from windows if you going to do a clean install
[19:22] <highvoltage> are there any major differences between a script running from /usr/lib/ubiquity/target-config and a typical shell?
[19:23] <highvoltage> I have a script that runs more or less as expected when running manually at the same point in the installation process, but from within ubiquity it fails
[21:27] <cjwatson> highvoltage: the main one that comes to mind is that (IIRC) it'll have its stdin/stdout connected to debconf
[21:31] <highvoltage> cjwatson: that's quite interesting, thanks. I'm just going to move it out of there since it technically doesn't belong there anyway
[21:32] <highvoltage> cjwatson: on a related note, has there ever been a discussion on including tasks (or something similar) in Ubiquity so that a user could choose additional software or configurations that's shipped on the disc?
[21:35] <superm1> highvoltage, that can be achieved by a ubiquity plugin if you wanted
[21:35] <superm1> that's actually what some of the mythbuntu plugins do
[21:36] <superm1> take a look at lp:~mythbuntu/mythbuntu/mythbuntu-live-autostart in the ubiquity/ directory to see how some of those plugins do it
[21:42] <highvoltage> superm1: oooooh! Thank you I will do so
[21:43] <cjwatson> ~.
[21:43] <highvoltage> best to press ^a d before that :)


[08:40] <SvenKieske> good morning from europe. So I'm really not sure if I'm supposed to ask end user questions in here or if this is a dev only channel (the wiki seems to say it's okay to ask here?). But I want to restate my question from yesterday: why do we not get the latest security update for the focal hwe edge kernel via metapackage "linux-generic-hwe-20.04-edge"?
[08:41] <SvenKieske> is this metapackage in the process of being updated to the next LTS Kernel (22.04) and thus security updates are stopped for the moment? :/
[08:59] <JanC> who says it doesn't get security updates?
[09:12] <SvenKieske> to be specific, it is still missing this update, and the "edge" kernel was also not mentioned in the associated USN Security Announcement: https://ubuntu.com/security/CVE-2022-0847
[09:15] <SvenKieske> and going back through our announcement archive, the "hwe-edge" kernel almost never get's mentioned in these announcements. I just want to know if we maybe misuse this kernel and want to double check that we get security updates asap, or if we should maybe use "hwe" kernel without edge?
[09:16] <SvenKieske> this is for datacenter/ private/public cloud workloads
[09:16] <SvenKieske> JanC: any input would be appreciated :)
[09:17] <JanC> if it is a security issue, it might also be useful to mention it in #ubuntu-security
[09:18] <JanC> IIRC there was a discussion there about various kernels there being vulnerable or not
[09:18] <SvenKieske> thanks for the pointer, until yesterday I wasn't really active in the ubuntu irc community, will do.
[09:19] <JanC> also, did you check if there is a new kernel in -proposed maybe?
[09:25] <SvenKieske> yeah, but in "proposed, there is 5.15 instead of the current 5.13, my guess is that has maybe todo with the upcoming next LTS GA of ubuntu? but it's just a guess. I'm not deeply familiar with the ubuntu dev cycle, coming from fedora land originally.
[09:26] <SvenKieske> iirc I saw a fixed 5.13 in the official hwe lts git branch tagged, that's why I wondered why it wasn't released..wait a second..
[09:27] <klebers> SvenKieske, hi! The -edge kernels are not guaranteed to received security fixes asap
[09:27] <klebers> they are not supported kernels
[09:28] <klebers> the hwe-edge kernel version (in this case 5.15) is a test kernel until it gets stable enough
[09:29] <klebers> this kernel is the backport of the kernel from 22.04 LTS which is still under development
[09:29] <SvenKieske> klebers: hi, then why some "hwe" kernel get patches via security announce, and some do not? is this best effort community stuff? :)
[09:29] <SvenKieske> the patch is in git, just not released, it seems? https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-kernel/ubuntu/+source/linux/+git/focal/commit/?h=hwe-5.13
[09:29] <SvenKieske> sorry, this commit: https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-kernel/ubuntu/+source/linux/+git/focal/commit/?h=hwe-5.13&id=438da6e5c849ffe553fc15379471bf331346c3d2
[09:29] <klebers> the hwe kernel is supported and receives security updates, but not hwe-edge
[09:30] <klebers> so if you need a supported kernel you need to use hwe and not hwe-edge
[09:30] <SvenKieske> klebers: very good to know! I feared as much! is this documented somewhere? if yes, it's well hidden, because 3 engineers didn't find that information yesterday :D
[09:32] <SvenKieske> thank you very, very much! that's very important information for me. if I can help out communicate that somehow better (the edge kernel seems somehow underdocumented in general), let me know :)
[09:32] <klebers> We have this document: https://ubuntu.com/kernel/variants
[09:32] <klebers> "Provides early access to the next generic-hwe kernel."
[09:33] <klebers> though it's not clear about the support and security updates. I'm looking for some other doc
[09:33] <SvenKieske> yeah, I read that page, and several others, up and down..
[09:34] <SvenKieske> it might be improved :) but thanks for letting me know! :)
[09:36] <klebers> SvenKieske, thanks for pointing that out! I might be missing something but it seems we really don't have an official documentation making it clear. I'll get in touch with the people responsible for this page so we can have it expanded
[09:38] <SvenKieske> klebers: very much appreciated! better documentation is always a win, hope it helps someone else in the future :)
[09:39] <JanC> maybe the -edge kernel shouldn't be in 'main' if it is not officially supported...
[09:43] <klebers> they are canonical maintained kernels, just not supported in the sense that they are test kernels and we don't make an effort to fix bugs as quickly as the stable kernels
[09:44] <klebers> so they are not suitable for production environments
[09:46] <SvenKieske> remembering..I guess we deduced that if they are in main they get updates..but that was some years ago, so my memory might be wrong
[09:46] <SvenKieske> we thought they where just newer than "hwe" I guess.
[09:48] <SvenKieske> I think it's fine as is, but it should just be clearly documented somewhere (easy to find). this is still a large problem for most software out in the world, anyway.
[09:49] <SvenKieske> just yesterday I rummaged through go-yaml just to find out they do no security announcements at all, you find those in kubernetes repositories instead..ah well, we still live in the dark age of computing.
[09:53] <SvenKieske> whoopsie, that's also developed by canonical I guess. not trying to step on anyone's toes, it's all hard work and oss, after all :)
[10:05] <JanC> klebers: that really sounds like they don't belong in 'main' to me...
[10:06] <JanC> other stuff in universe is maintained by Canonical employees too
[10:07] <JanC> just not officially or with guarantees
[10:20] <xnox> JanC:  hwe-edge used to be in PPA only, but it made it very impractical to test. From time to time, we do one-off spins of Ubuntu Desktop .iso with hwe-edge kernel, instead of hwe one. To create offline media for Vendors to test. Ubuntu Desktop .iso are built with main suite only. Ditto Ubuntu Server isos and cloud images. Thus to allow wider, pre-release, testing of the next hwe kernel, we
[10:20] <xnox> have to put it as hwe-edge into main.
[10:20] <xnox> all of our attempts at having it in a ppa, or keep it stuck in focal-proposed, ended up being futile efforts and the target users were unable to install and test it.
[10:21] <JanC> I don't see why that would require 'main' instead of 'universe'
[10:21] <xnox> that is true. but that's how those images are built for Ubuntu product today, they force disable universe, and keep only main enabled.
[10:21] <SvenKieske> mhm, this is maybe not the right channel, but maybe you know people who could fix this: when downloading source packages from packages.ubuntu.com all download links to .xz files are downloads via "http" instead of "https" and new releases of firefox outright block downloads via http..
[10:22] <xnox> SvenKieske:  cute, there should be a link to file a bug report at the bottom of the packages website.
[10:22] <JanC> well, fix how those images are built then  :)
[10:23] <xnox> JanC:  also it iis not true that universe doesn't get security support.... because on some LTS releases one can purchase that from Canonical as an Ubuntu Pro entitelment. It's just hwe-edge has a carve out.
[10:23] <SvenKieske> xnox: will do, thanks!
[10:23] <JanC> or find some way to make sure that hwe images always override hwe-edge images
[10:24] <xnox> SvenKieske:  maybe say something like "urls could point at launchpad librarian / launchpad https download instead of http archive"
[10:24] <xnox> JanC:  ideally we wanted not to ship hwe-edge in the archive, and have it just in a PPA. But that hill prooved too much to climb =(
[10:25] <JanC> xnox: I just said that lots of universe gets Canonical support, but it's not guaranteed the same way as for 'main'
[10:25] <xnox> .... but also main
[10:25] <xnox> literarly everything is case by case basis =)
[10:25] <JanC> which would fit hwe-edge
[10:26] <xnox> cause if you squint hard enough, you will see remains of EOL v5.6 v5.8 v5.11 kernels in focal-updates too that stopped receiving security suport.
[10:26] <xnox> from all the various -edge types of kernels (hwe-edge is not the only edge kernel variant)
[10:27] <xnox> we used to have Supported: field on the package metadata that we were able to tweak
[10:27] <xnox> but i don't have a way to declare stuff as carve-outs in the metadata automatically for things that are not supported.
[10:27] <JanC> move everything that is not supposed to be supported to universe?
[10:27] <JanC> eh?
[10:28] <JanC> so, you need to fix that regression  ;)
[10:28] <xnox> main/universe split is based on whether things are seeded in ubuntu products
[10:28] <xnox> rather than what canonical provides commercial support for, or not.
[10:28] <xnox> and security support is orthogonal to that.
[10:28] <xnox> things that get through MIR process and get seeded are in main.
[10:29] <xnox> the source packages of hwe-edge fit that bill, because eventually that same source package starts to produce -edge packages, and then eventually stops again, as we roll on and off it.
[10:29] <xnox> so it must / will be in main proper for a period of time.
[10:30] <xnox> the roll-on/roll-off is messy though.
[10:30] <JanC> commercial support, you can handle in separate contracts, but other people really assume stuff in main gets security support
[10:30] <JanC> that's how it was originally communicated...
[10:31] <SvenKieske> I agree, that this should at least be better documented, what is in "main". I'm not even talking about desktop users, those tend to have a false sense of security what get's updated most of the time anyway.
[10:32] <SvenKieske> honestly I don't know a single distro who really gets this right, you can easily check this by mapping upstream vulns to distro sec announcements. maybe redhat for their base distro is close, but they miss tons of kernel vulns as well.
[10:33] <JanC> some kernel issues might be so minor or hard to exploit that they don't bother also
[10:34] <SvenKieske> still, I think honest and open communication is key, so it would be good to get some kind of easy to identify indicator on a per package basis how up to date it is, the debian security tracker is somewhat decent at this (but also not always up to date itself).
[10:34] <xnox> about current situation...... have you installed and running hwe-edge kernel and did something tell you to do that?
[10:35] <xnox> and if one is monitoring USN / CVE notices, it should have clear indication which kernels are EOL, and which ones are still to be patched. And it should be easy to see that information.
[10:35] <xnox> i would want to start with simple accurante and critical information being clear first.
[10:35] <SvenKieske> well, if you run servers, that is, new server hardware, you want those new drivers in newer kernels, so you need hwe, or hwe-edge.. we had some internal discussion which one to choose, unfortunately I don't find any minutes from that meeting atm..
[10:36] <JanC> xnox: there is no clear warning in the package descriptions either
[10:36] <JanC> for those -edge kernels
[10:36] <SvenKieske> I remember being in favor of the "hwe" kernel, without the "edge"..honestly, if it where my decision alone I would go with upstream latest LTS release (so kernel.org kernels).
[10:37] <xnox> so ahead of 20.04.2 release we take 20.10 kernel and package it as hwe-edge and test it. if all is good and no regressions are identified we roll out that new kernel as both hwe & hwe-edge flavours, until we start preparing for 20.04.3
[10:37] <SvenKieske> what I remember is, that the idea was: if we use "hwe-edge" we can already test if we have issues with the next lts release. because we want to upgrade from lts to lts
[10:38] <JanC> yeah, hwe seems to be fine, but there seems to be no proper explanation about hwe-edge in the packages, so it would be easy to be mislead
[10:38] <SvenKieske> to not blow things out of proportion: I think some docs on the kernel variants page, or the old hwe kernel wiki page or in the package description would've been enough, we checked all those :)
[10:39] <xnox> so hwe-edge is ahead of hwe, only for a short period of time (i.e. 1-2 months) every 6 months, for about 18 months, from the 6month lifemark of an LTS
[10:39] <xnox> SvenKieske:  hwe-edge doesn't not give you that, hwe does. Because eventually, hwe will roll upto the next LTS kernel and park on that.
[10:39] <JanC> if it really is a temporary cludge, and should be indicated as such in its package descriptions...
[10:40] <xnox> hwe-edge just offers that 1-2 months earlier, still not fully tested and with regressions potentially.
[10:40] <xnox> SvenKieske:  please don't run *-edge kernels in production.
[10:40] <xnox> JanC:  Agree with that.
[10:40] <JanC> "do not install this until explicitly asked to for testing"  :)
[10:40] <JanC> and move it to universe really
[10:40] <SvenKieske> xnox: I'm about to change that :) it's still pre production, so not too late :D
[10:41] <SvenKieske> xnox: some clear messaging somewhere would be really good, I myself don't even bother where it's written down (well, maybe not in a kernel source comment), as long as I can find it. we spent the whole afternoon with 3 ppl yesterday looking for information when to use which kernel
[10:42] <SvenKieske> because I already feared that the missing security update was a sign we use the wrong kernel
[10:42] <SvenKieske> I guess most people wouldn't even notice
[10:42] <SvenKieske> need to head to my "daily", see you in a bit
[10:42] <xnox> SvenKieske: Ubuntu Server installer iso defaults to GA kernel always, and offers hwe$ flavour as an option (if one must). My personal opinion for servers is that first two years of the LTS it is best to use generic. After first two years, it makes sense to switch to hwe, because it is the next-lts's generic, which gives one features and stability of the next-lts kernel with ease of upgrading
[10:42] <xnox> to it, as one is already running almost the same kernel.
[10:43] <xnox> SvenKieske:  most people are not smart enough to find/locate/install hwe-edge kernel. It is a very manual task!
[10:43] <SvenKieske> xnox: agreed :) I think I also said as much in the meeting deciding about kernels, unfortunately that was some years ago, and I don't find the minutes.. anyway we are now better informed :)
[10:44] <JanC> well, depends if you need the hardware support
[10:44] <SvenKieske> xnox: you find hwe kernel fast, if your hardware doesn't boot ;)
[10:44] <xnox> and that. yes, one may be forced to use hwe even during the first 24 months.
[10:44] <xnox> SvenKieske:  desktop.iso should always boot (it defaults to hwe)
[10:45] <JanC> even if it boots, you might still need it for optimal performance
[10:45] <xnox> SvenKieske:  and server iso should offer it as an option..... hopefully that correctly makes people find hwe$ (not -edge)
[10:45] <SvenKieske> xnox: well I certainly don't boot any GUI on my 10k servers ;)
[10:46] <xnox> how dare you not =)
[10:46] <JanC> it shows how bad documentaion can confuse even an experienced admin...?
[10:47] <xnox> >_< =)
[10:47] <xnox> i think it is still true that one cannot certify server java install without X & gtk
[10:49] <SvenKieske> yeah, would call me rather experienced after roughly 10 years of linux :)
[10:50] <JanC> it's also still true that most admins don't care about certified stuff
[10:51] <JanC> I remember a friend who got bitten by that
[10:51] <SvenKieske> beside elasticsearch we fortunately don't run java :)
[10:56] <xnox> SvenKieske:  it makes sense for prod to have hwe, but testing environment to have hwe-edge. That way, if there are upcoming kernel roll being prepared, one will notice breakage in test 1-2 months before it hits production.
[10:59] <xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/1964467
[11:01] <JanC> that friend used a paid distro because it was the only officially supported one for a commercial groupware solution they also paid for; then a distro upgrade broke their mail/calendaring/etc.; after 2 days of support requests but no solutions (and his users getting very angry) he also asked around on Debian IRC (he used Debian personally), he got an answer explaining the problem with that paid distro, and an assurance the groupware still ran fine on Debian;
[11:01] <JanC> he never looked back...  :P
[11:04] <xnox> i dream to run all of distro CI whilst pulling vanilla rc kernel; git tip of systemd; git tip of glibc; git tip of gcc; etc.
[11:05] <xnox> but nobody does that. simultaniously. at most people only test one new thing, not all new things together all the time.
[11:05] <JanC> well, obviously, that's why you use distros...
[11:06]  * xnox is distro developer, and thinks that's how distro should ci itself, but doesn't
[11:07] <JanC> well, you should test things separately and together both
[11:08] <JanC> one of the problems in FOSS is the mismatch between upstream & distro schedules
[11:26] <SvenKieske> xnox: afaik facebook does that, somewhat, they use centos and backports from fedora for systemd, kernel etc. check out their github, pretty awesome
[11:28] <JanC> facebook have more resources than almost any distro
[11:34] <xnox> SvenKieske:  as far as i understand for systemd they just run the one from main branch in production. by taking snapshot of it, running it through their dev environment, then test, then to prod. so like stuff landing in main can be deployed in fb production within like 1-2 weeks time.
[11:35] <xnox> based on the chats we had with them at systemd io in berlin.
[11:35] <xnox> i don't know what they do with kernels.
[21:37] <ricotz> hello :), I am curious if there is an ETA for kernel update for jammy?