[08:59] <fagan> morning
[09:10] <ralsina> morning fagan
[09:10] <fagan> ralsina: morning
[09:12] <fagan> So when do you want to walk me through the testing stuff
[09:13] <mandel> morning :)
[09:13] <fagan> morning mandel
[09:17] <mandel> ralsina, fagan: can you run the tests on linux for : https://code.launchpad.net/~mandel/ubuntuone-client/provide_credentials_management/+merge/62627
[09:17] <ralsina> mandel: sure!
[09:17] <fagan> mandel: sure
[09:18] <mandel> thx ^ 2
[09:18] <ralsina> and god morning!
[09:21] <mandel> :)
[09:29] <mandel> ralsina, fagan: did the tests pass?
[09:29] <ralsina> mandel: still running
[09:29] <mandel> ralsina: wow, they are slow...
[09:29] <ralsina> yep
[09:31] <ralsina> fagan: about the testing stuff, I am probably the worst one to walk you through it ;-)
[09:31] <ralsina> but in any case, yesterday, or the day before, nessita told you where the tests for that piece of code are.
[09:32] <fagan> autogen and make worked fine
[09:32] <mandel> fagan: and make check?
[09:32] <fagan> ralsina: well I know where the tests are I just want a walkthough of mocker and how to use it in relation to the code and all that
[09:32] <fagan> mandel: running now
[09:33] <ralsina> fagan: read the other tests. If you don't understand something, ping me
[09:33] <ralsina> not all of course, just one or two ;-)
[09:34] <ralsina> mandel: make test is successful
[09:34] <ralsina> BTW: that thing has exactly 2222 tests!
[09:34] <mandel> ralsina: dammed, take a look at the merge proposal, it fails on tarmac...
[09:34] <fagan> Errors
[09:34] <ralsina> mandel: let me check it
[09:34] <mandel> fagan: got errors? can you copy paste them?
[09:35] <fagan> ill have to redo the tests my terminal doesnt hold logs longer than 999 lines or something
[09:35] <fagan> im on 11.10 so that might be one of the issues though
[09:36] <fagan> if the tests are passing for ralsina
[09:36] <ralsina> mandel: I tested the branch, not the merged branch
[09:36] <ralsina> probably you have to merge to see the failures
[09:36] <mandel> ralsina: can you try that?
[09:36] <ralsina> plus, I will surely not get "exceptions.OSError: Too many open files" since I have that set waaaaay high
[09:37] <ralsina> I am trying the merged branch now
[09:37] <fagan> ok give it 10 minutes and ill give the complete log
[09:43] <ralsina> once unit testing starts taking 10 minutes ... oh, well.
[09:44] <mandel> I really dont understand it, mine merged with trunk works ok
[09:45] <ralsina> mandel: the too many open files error may be tarmac doing something
[09:45] <mandel> yes, I suspect so…
[09:45] <mandel> which is a pain in the ass
[09:46] <fagan> too many open files
[09:46] <mandel> fagan: you got that too?
[09:46] <fagan> and there is another about defer timing out
[09:46] <fagan> yep
[09:47] <ralsina> fagan: pastebin plz
[09:47] <fagan> ralsina: im still getting it
[09:47] <fagan> ralsina: takes ages
[09:47] <fagan> I just was looking down what was there
[09:52] <mandel> so, any luck?
[09:52] <fagan> mandel: still going
[09:53] <ralsina> mandel: still running
[09:53] <ralsina> PASSED (skips=1, successes=2223)
[09:53] <mandel> then I dont understand...
[09:53] <ralsina> mandel: so, can't help you with that :-(
[09:54] <mandel> leches!!
[09:56] <ralsina> maybe fagan can give you shell access to his box?
[09:57] <mandel> ralsina: the wird things is also to get this: exceptions.AttributeError: 'generator' object has no attribute 'addBoth'
[09:57] <ralsina> that's weird, yes
[09:57] <mandel> that does not make sense… the too many open files ok, but this..
[09:57] <ralsina> could be twisted versions?
[09:58] <mandel> I dont think there should be any issues, also I'm running N as tarmac should be doing
[09:58] <mandel> and between 10 and 11 there is not such a diff
[09:58] <ralsina> I am on N too
[09:59] <fagan> im running O
[09:59] <ralsina> but I am not fully up to date! Something else to try...
[09:59] <fagan> so it might be a different version
[10:00] <ralsina> mandel: trying with latest devtools etc
[10:00] <mandel> ralsina: I'm gonna see if I'm not up to date, but I should..
[10:00] <ralsina> mandel: ok
[10:02] <fagan> hmmmmm so from what I remember about reading and writing to files you are only allowed to open a few buffers at any given time is that the issue thats coming up
[10:09] <fagan> 9000 lines and counting of the log
[10:09] <ralsina> fagan: the limit on open files on linux is like 8192 files by default
[10:10] <ralsina> mandel: got errors now!
[10:10] <mandel> ralsina: me too, seems I was not up to date...
[10:10] <fagan> ralsina: but the buffer limit is like 8 and 2 are open by default
[10:10] <ralsina> the too many open files one
[10:10] <ralsina> fagan: no
[10:10] <mandel> ralsina: bloody hell…. I wonder if this happens in a clean branh from trunk
[10:11] <mandel> ralsina: if it does we are blocked...
[10:11] <ralsina> fagan: there is no such thing as buffers separate from files, that was only true in, like DOS 4.0
[10:11]  * fagan looks though his notes to find the bit that explains this
[10:11] <ralsina> mandel: well, another thing to try, but I am betting on devtools being the guilty party
[10:11] <mandel> ralsina: I hope so… the ssue s from pyinotify, which is an evil beast
[10:12] <ralsina> mandel: I only had a few updates, and devtools is the only obvious one that could hurt this
[10:12] <ralsina> also memory usage has gone to hell so I am guessing tests are not cleaning after themselves
[10:13] <mandel> ralsina: yes, but I wonder what is the trial runner doing… it could be that the tests are not correctly tearing down
[10:13] <mandel> ralsina: hehe though the same, great minds...
[10:13] <ralsina> dobey was workin on tardown last night, too
[10:13] <mandel> ok, so we are block regarding tarmac until we roll back and we push the old one to tarmac
[10:13] <mandel> right?
[10:16] <ralsina> I think so
[10:16] <ralsina> or maybe dobey looks at it and says "doh"
[10:16] <ralsina> we can stack branches (scary)
[10:18] <ralsina> why the hell did I accept a plane ticket that leaves at 8AM? Was I drunk?
[10:21] <fagan> ralsina: yeah what I was remembering was io streams
[10:21] <mandel> ralsina: dammed, stacking branches is dangaerous, we have already done that...
[10:21] <ralsina> mandel: thus the scary part
[10:22] <fagan> ralsina: 3 are open by default not 2 as well
[10:22] <ralsina> dobey should be here in ~4 hours
[10:22] <mandel> ralsina: when does dobey arrive?
[10:22] <ralsina> fagan: what do you mean "io streams"?
[10:22] <mandel> ralsina: dammed you are too fast for me :)
[10:22] <fagan> ralsina: stdio, stderr, stdin
[10:22] <ralsina> stdin/stdout/stderr? Those are regular file descriptors in linux (and most OSs I suppose)
[10:22] <fagan> ralsina: and when you open a file it creates a buffer like those
[10:23] <fagan> (they are just buffers)
[10:23] <ralsina> yes, file IO is buffered. That doesn't mean you can't open 8192 files. Try it :-)
[10:23] <ralsina> ha, the tests have killed my VM :-(
[10:24] <fagan> ralsina: well you can open them but you cant use them all at once maybe the OS makes that seem a little more seemless than it is
[10:24] <ralsina> fagan: try it!
[10:24] <ralsina> start 4000 threads writing to 4000 files
[10:24] <fagan> ralsina: actually that definitely will kill itself
[10:24] <ralsina> or one thread with 8000 open files and write to them round robin :-)
[10:24] <fagan> ralsina: did that in class one day
[10:24] <ralsina> fagan: t r y i t
[10:25] <fagan> hah
[10:25] <ralsina> try the 8000 files one. 4000 threads need eef to run ;-)
[10:25] <ralsina> s/eef/beef/
[10:25] <fagan> ralsina: well it will work if you write them in a round robin since it will only have 1 buffer at 1 time
[10:26] <ralsina> fagan: and how do you write to two files at once without threads?
[10:26] <fagan> if I did like 20 at 1 time the OS would probably switch between them
[10:26] <ralsina> and no, you will have 8000 buffers, unless you flush them
[10:27] <fagan> well there would be some OS magic there id say
[10:27] <ralsina> fagan: again. Try it. It's 10 lines. I will wait.
[10:27] <fagan> ill do it a bit later
[10:27]  * ralsina brings out the subborn-o-meter
[10:27] <fagan> still waiting on the tests
[10:27] <ralsina> damn, sTubborn-o-meter
[10:27] <ralsina> fagan, if you got the error, kill it, we already reproduced it
[10:28] <fagan> ah ok then
[10:28] <fagan> actually im getting some different ones too
[10:29] <fagan> like there are a few attribute errors
[10:29] <ralsina> damn, had to hard-reset the VM :-(
[10:32] <mandel> ralsina: we can revert the last merge in ubuntuone-dev-tools to see if it works, I'll do that
[10:32] <ralsina> mandel: cool
[10:32] <fagan> ralsina: did you get the attribute errors too?
[10:33] <ralsina> fagan: can't tell since it died
[10:34] <ralsina> fagan: BTW: turns out ubuntu stats with an 1024 open file limit
[10:34] <fagan> ralsina: interesting id still like to see how its handled kernel level
[10:35] <fagan> (my guess is they move around the buffers and give each one time)
[10:35] <ralsina> fagan: you seem to have the impression that buffers are some scarce resource. They are not.
[10:36] <fagan> ralsina: yeah I know I just got a flash of the C class where they said you might have problems in some OSes
[10:36] <ralsina> and the whole purpose of them is to make writing to files return faster. You can even not use them.
[10:37] <ralsina> fagan: yes, "in some OSes"  :-)
[10:38] <fagan> Im going to let the tests finish so I can see if there are any other errors
[10:38] <fagan> ralsina: well windows in different times and some versions of unix that are floating about
[10:39] <fagan> well probably not any one in major use
[10:39] <ralsina> windows seems to be 2048 by default
[10:39] <fagan> ralsina: that the same for dos-98
[10:39] <ralsina> ok, 512 by default, and you can raise it to 2048
[10:40] <ralsina> of course if you app has more than 100 open files, you are probably doing something wrong
[10:41] <fagan> well it wouldnt make much sense in the desktop case
[10:42] <fagan> since it would slow everything down
[10:42] <fagan> and there wouldnt be anything that would need to be doing things all at once like that with files
[10:42] <fagan> but a server might have a problem if they were doing something weird
[10:43] <fagan> other than that I cant see a use for it
[10:43] <ralsina> fagan: servers either use a multiprocess model (thus avoiding these limits) or ask you to raise them, or use massive caching to memory, or mmap files, or... I mean these limits have been there for 40 years, not a new problem ;-)
[10:44] <fagan> ralsina: true
[10:45] <fagan> 11300 lines in the log :D
[10:46] <fagan> ralsina: race? http://paste.ubuntu.com/617390/
[10:47] <ralsina> fagan: once you get the state of the program as broken as it is when 1000 tests are not closed, anything can happen, usually errors lose relevance after a while :-)
[10:47] <fagan> there are a good few other errors than just the too many files thing
[10:47] <fagan> ah ok
[10:48] <ralsina> unless that error is one of the firsts, in which case, yeah
[10:48] <fagan> ok then I was thinking it could have been interesting to see what errors it cmes up with
[10:48] <fagan> *comes
[10:53] <fagan> just to make sure I pastebinned the output it takes a while to load though http://paste.ubuntu.com/617393/
[10:53] <fagan> I killed it though
[10:56] <mandel> ralsina: so far with r 31 of dev tools tests pass, I'll test all of them from there to see when it brakes
[10:56] <ralsina> mandel: cool, at least we have a clue
[10:56] <ralsina> I wish bzr had a bisect command like git
[10:57]  * fagan likes
[10:58]  * fagan likes to say "make one" when people wish
[10:59]  * mandel goes for a small break while tests run
[10:59]  * fagan takes a nap
[11:02] <ralsina> lunch break for me
[11:14]  * mandel back
[11:33] <mandel> ralsina: looks like the culprit is the very last revision of ubuntuone-dev-tools, version 34, we can revert to version 33 and propose for merge..
[12:00] <duanedesign> morning all
[12:06] <duanedesign> hmmmm, http://www.dorianselimi.com/2011/06/justin-bieber-gnulinux-os/ /me thinnks i will put this on my roomates laptop
[12:08] <duanedesign> facundobatista: if you get a second today I had a question about {'is_directory': 'T', 'changed': 'LOCAL', 'has_metadata': 'T'} and what that is telling us.
[12:09] <facundobatista> duanedesign, ok
[12:09] <facundobatista> Muy buenos días a todos!
[12:10] <facundobatista> duanedesign, well, not ok, that combination has no sense, :)
[12:10] <facundobatista> duanedesign, do you have a branch of ubuntuone-client at hand?
[12:12] <duanedesign> i do
[12:13] <duanedesign> facundobatista, just fetched the latest revision
[12:15] <facundobatista> duanedesign, ok, open the ubuntuone/syncdaemon/u1fsfsm.ods file
[12:16] <facundobatista> duanedesign, that is how we programed the Sync state machine
[12:16] <facundobatista> duanedesign, the general desing of the file is that for each Event, you have an input state, an action, and an output state
[12:17] <facundobatista> that input state is the combination of:
[12:17] <facundobatista> - the node has metadata locally
[12:18] <facundobatista> - the "changed" state (NONE means not changed, LOCAL means that has local changes, SERVER means that there're server changed pending to update locally)
[12:18] <facundobatista> - is_directory means that if it's a dir or a file
[12:18] <facundobatista> and then you have some parameters according to the hash informed in the Event (if any) and errors (if any)
[12:18] <facundobatista> duanedesign, so far so good?
[12:19] <duanedesign> yes, thank you!
[12:19] <facundobatista> duanedesign, ok, now to be more specific about "changed"
[12:19] <facundobatista> the "changed" attribute is not a real one, it's a combination of:
[12:20] <facundobatista> - if local_hash (the hash we have locally for the node) is equal or different to the server_hash (the hash we locally know that the server has)
[12:20] <facundobatista> - if the node has a "partial" component (that means that it's being downloaded from the server)
[12:21] <facundobatista> LOCAL means that it has no partial, and the hashes are different... in other words, that we're *uploading* the node
[12:22] <facundobatista> duanedesign, which has no sense at all talking about directories: we never upload directories
[12:22]  * duanedesign nods
[12:22] <facundobatista> duanedesign, if you check the .ods, there's no input in any line for that combination (that's why the log says "Invalid input state"
[12:22] <facundobatista> )
[12:22] <facundobatista> duanedesign, furthermore, there's no output state for that combination
[12:23] <facundobatista> (columns L to N)
[12:23] <facundobatista> duanedesign, so, it's very very strange how the user gets to have that
[12:24] <duanedesign> facundobatista: thank you that is very helpful
[12:24] <facundobatista> otoh, we have seen cases like this already, and even more strange ones... and we also have seen a lot of cases of corrupted metadata in strange ways because of disk failing, energy cuts, etc
[12:26] <duanedesign> facundobatista: is their a way to get more info about the particular file(s) that might be corrupted? Or is the user likely to just need to 'rm' the metadata folder and have it recreated?
[12:31] <mandel> facundobatista: have you seen the failures from tarmac?
[12:31] <mandel> facundobatista: the current version of ubuntuone-dev-tools is broken… and we wont be able to land anything until the changes are reverted and installed in the tarmac machine
[12:35] <ralsina> mandel: or wait one more hour for dobey and ask him to look at it
[12:36] <mandel> ok
[12:38] <facundobatista> mandel, which failures from tarmac?
[12:38] <facundobatista> duanedesign, you can always make the user to dump the metadata to a readable form
[12:38] <mandel> facundobatista: let me find and example
[12:39] <facundobatista> duanedesign, see 'contrib/dump_metadata.py'
[12:39] <facundobatista> duanedesign, if you want to see more info there, it's easy to add
[12:39] <mandel> facundobatista: last comment: https://code.launchpad.net/~mandel/ubuntuone-client/provide_credentials_management/+merge/62627
[12:39] <mandel> facundobatista: all those are due to u1trial issues
[12:40]  * mandel walks dog
[12:41] <facundobatista> mandel, exceptions.AttributeError: 'generator' object has no attribute 'addBoth' ?
[12:45] <facundobatista> mandel, ah, ok, yes, it seems to be a ubuntuone-dev-tools problem
[13:00] <nessita> good morning everyone!
[13:04] <facundobatista> Hola nessita
[13:05] <nessita> hola facu
[13:13] <ralsina> hola nessita
[13:14] <nessita> hola ralsina, que tal?
[13:15] <ralsina> nessita: saying goodbye to people here, readying myself fr london
[13:15] <nessita> ralsina: when do you travel? today or tomorrow?
[13:15] <ralsina> tomorrow 8AM
[13:15] <nessita> that's early :-)
[13:16] <ralsina> yeah, I don't know what I was thinking
[13:16] <ralsina> I have to leave for the airport at 5AM
[13:21] <fagan> ralsina: I have to leave at 7 for my plane even though it leaves at 11
[13:21] <fagan> damn busses
[13:22] <fagan> I think next time im going to book the flights around 5 so it would be easier
[13:31] <Chipaca> ralsina: you were thinking "yeah 8am sounds right, i get up early, have breakfast and say my goodbyes, but then have all the day in london"
[13:31] <Chipaca> ralsina: forgetting that 8am flight means getting up at stupid am :)
[13:32] <ralsina> Chipaca: it probably will be "ok, I stay up all night then go to the airport like a zombie, mistakenly take a plane to Burkina Faso, end being torn apart by hyenas"
[13:33] <ralsina> I am setting my expectations low
[13:35] <fagan> sounds like a very cool place to get a weird plane to
[13:42] <ralsina> fagan: you can get there for U$S 2000 from Dublin. Only a 18 hour flight.
[13:43] <ralsina> Then again, the older name "Upper Volta" is way cooler
[13:44] <fagan> wow you could charter a jet for that price
[13:44] <ralsina> fagan: round trip
[13:44] <ralsina> it costs about the same as coming from argentina to turkey
[13:45] <fagan> ralsina: wow are you paying that or are you going through some other airport
[13:45]  * fagan sees why mark owns his own jet
[13:45] <ralsina> fagan: I am not going to london via argentina if that's what you are asking ;-)
[13:46] <fagan> ralsina: arent your family going back
[13:46] <fagan> (from turkey)
[13:46] <ralsina> fagan: yeah, tickets were not cheap. About 2.7K for both of them
[13:47] <fagan> wow couldnt you get a connecting flight for cheaper
[13:47] <fagan> Im pretty lucky everywhere in europe is pretty cheap
[13:53] <ralsina> fagan: that involves a 4-hour stop in brazil. There are not many places to connect between S.am and europe ;-)
[13:54] <fagan> ralsina: ah ok I forgot about timezones
[13:54] <ralsina> fagan: basically, you have to pay for a plane that's nice enough to cross the atlantic at it's longest
[13:54] <fagan> ralsina: and that isnt going to be entirely full
[13:56] <ralsina> fagan: yeah. While in europe flights you can fly cheap, small planes that can stop every 1000km.
[13:57] <ralsina> fagan: so, it's like comparing a ferry and a transatlantic ship
[13:57] <fagan> ralsina: yeah I can get to the US for about 600 depending on the time of day
[13:58] <fagan> ralsina: and anywhere in europe for around 200 max
[13:58] <ralsina> that's about 6000km shorter than going to argentina
[13:58] <ralsina> and inside europe, over 10000km shorter
[13:58] <thisfred> I've been doing the economy plus upgrades recently. (Basically you pay for an exit seat of a little more leg room) Totally worth it for me
[13:59] <fagan> yeah its hard to compare a trip across the world
[13:59] <ralsina> thisfred: in british I was able to get that by being first on the online checkin
[13:59] <thisfred> good to know, I'm flying BA as well :)
[13:59] <ralsina> on turkish they reservethose seats until "real" checkin ;-(
[13:59] <fagan> im going ryan air this time :(
[13:59] <ralsina> thisfred: you can pay 25 euros to be able to do it before the 24 hours
[14:00] <ralsina> fagan: you are fliying 90 minutes :-)
[14:00] <fagan> ralsina: ryan air are the devil
[14:00] <fagan> :D
[14:00] <thisfred> ralsina: 75$ for me, but they wouldn't let me, because of something with  the booking (I guess because it was booked through the agent(
[14:00] <fagan> and im going into standsted which doesnt have a tube or train to it I dont think
[14:00] <ralsina> thisfred: really? ouch!
[14:01] <thisfred> ralsina: anyway, the exit seats were already all gone. I'm hoping this plane has economy plus section (the newer ones of this type do)
[14:01] <ralsina> istanbul is only 1000lm farther away from argentina than london is. Surprising.
[14:01] <thisfred> which will be something like 200$ to upgrade to, but still worth not having to amputate my legs on arrival
[14:01] <ralsina> thisfred: yeah, that's much nicer. Specially you being so tall
[14:02] <ralsina> it seems my plane is half empty so I can probably just pick when I am in the plane
[14:02] <thisfred> I wish they would just make the seats higher, there's room there, and that would solve everyone's problems
[14:02] <ralsina> and 4 hours is short enough
[14:02] <ralsina> thisfred: all we short guys would get embolisms :-)
[14:02] <thisfred> yeah, for anything under 6 hours I won't bother
[14:03] <thisfred> maybe have foot rests
[14:03] <ralsina> I am galled they dare call the metal loop things below the seats foot rests.
[14:03] <ralsina> I would have to detach my feet to use them
[14:03] <thisfred> Oh they have foot rests? :)
[14:04] <ralsina> thisfred: not really ;-)
[14:04] <thisfred> I'm usually with my knees by my ears as it is :)
[14:04] <ralsina> I need wider seats, but not because of my belly, but because of my shoulders :-(
[14:04] <thisfred> anyway, London's only 7 hours, which is survivable. B.A. was really painful at 11 hours
[14:05] <ralsina> I end in a semi-permanent shrug :-)
[14:05] <ralsina> I have a 16 hour return flight next week...
[14:05]  * ralsina considers upgrades
[14:05] <thisfred> yeah that too: my arms are too long for the arm rests so I have to tuck them in and hunch
[14:06] <thisfred> ralsina: the economy plus seats really are awesome for me, but I don't know that they're wider
[14:06] <nessita> OOPS
[14:06] <thisfred> ralsina: upgrading on such a long flight will get you a meeeeellion miles though
[14:06] <nessita> me
[14:06] <thisfred> me
[14:06] <ralsina> the business upgrade is ridiculously expensive, so I will try economy plus
[14:06] <ralsina> me
[14:07] <mandel> me
[14:07] <ralsina> fagan?
[14:07] <nessita> dobey, fagan?
[14:07] <nessita> DONE: folder subscription is now landed, started debugging DBus failures on test suite
[14:07] <nessita> TODO: more DBus debugging
[14:07] <nessita> BLOCKED: not yet
[14:07] <nessita> NEXT: thisfred
[14:07] <thisfred> DONE: Bug #791927, reviews, reinstalled laptop
[14:08] <thisfred> TODO: possibly assist with couchdb diagnostic session | u1-unity bugs
[14:08] <thisfred> BLOCKED: no
[14:08] <thisfred> NEXT: ralsina
[14:08] <ubot4`> Launchpad bug 791927 in desktopcouch (Ubuntu) "apport hook in source package not installed (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791927
[14:08] <ralsina> DONE: pinged lots of people, organized my trip, reviews, not much else
[14:08] <ralsina> TODO: travel
[14:08] <ralsina> BLOCKED: no
[14:08] <ralsina> mandel?
[14:09] <mandel> DONE: Look at why tarmac reject branches Ubuntuone-dev-tools rev 34 is broken, we have to revert to 33.
[14:09] <mandel> TODO: Land branches. Work on sdtool won windows.
[14:09] <mandel> BLOCKED:not really
[14:09] <mandel> no one next I suppose...
[14:09] <nessita> dobey and fagan, go!
[14:10] <dobey> me
[14:10] <dobey> λ DONE: debugging horribly broken twisted+dbus test stuff
[14:10] <dobey> λ TODO: more debugging, bug #789300, bug #771488, expenses
[14:10] <dobey> λ BLCK: None.
[14:10] <ubot4`> Launchpad bug 789300 in ubuntuone-dev-tools "DBusTestCase needs to work with Qt main loop as well (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/789300
[14:10] <ubot4`> Launchpad bug 771488 in ubuntuone-dev-tools "u1trial should unset GTK_MODULES (affects: 1) (heat: 5)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771488
[14:11] <mandel> dobey: have you seen the state of tarmac?
[14:11] <nessita> expenses!!!
[14:11]  * nessita goes to canonicaladmin
[14:11] <mandel> dobey: looks like the last revision of u1trial is very broken
[14:11] <nessita> mandel: to me that looks like an env issue (Too many open files)?
[14:11] <dobey> nessita: no, it's weird
[14:11] <mandel> nessita: if yo revert tone rev it is fixed
[14:12]  * ralsina has not yet passed the expenses from the BUENOS AIRES sprint. Oh well.
[14:12] <nessita> mandel: you get the same error in your computer?
[14:12] <mandel> is nothing to do with the env, it can be be reproduce if you update u1trial to the latests version
[14:12] <mandel> nessita: ^
[14:12] <ralsina> nessita: mandel, fagan and I with latest devtools
[14:12] <dobey> mandel: which is weird
[14:12] <nessita> dobey: did you land something yesterday?
[14:13] <ralsina> dobey: tests are not tearing down and it's reaching 1024 files open. It also eats tons of ram
[14:13] <mandel> dobey: I do know it was the latests, I have tested with 31 up to find when as the issue
[14:13] <fagan> me whoops
[14:13] <mandel> dobey: yeah, it crashes my testing vm hehe
[14:14] <dobey> nessita: land something where?
[14:14] <nessita> dobey: devtools
[14:14]  * fagan was trying to get the pdf of the tickets
[14:14] <fagan> DONE
[14:14] <fagan> * Got plane ticket pdf
[14:14] <fagan> * tested mandel's branch
[14:14] <fagan> * tried to get the branch tests fixed
[14:14] <fagan> TODO
[14:14] <fagan> * Get the branch merged in and the tests finished
[14:14] <fagan> Blocked
[14:14] <fagan> * nope
[14:14] <dobey> nessita: no
[14:14] <nessita> weird
[14:14] <fagan> I just found out that I have to pay extra for a bag
[14:15] <fagan> :/
[14:15] <fagan> damn ryan air
[14:15] <dobey> mandel: on trunk, or just on your branch?
[14:16] <mandel> dobey: trunk
[14:17] <mandel> dobey: if you go back to rev 33 it works, so there most be a bug in the latests merge
[14:18] <mandel> dobey: I think the issue is with the fact that you removed the @inlineCallbacks
[14:18] <dobey> no
[14:18] <mandel> but I'm not 100% sure...
[14:18] <dobey> it's not
[14:19] <dobey> the issue is that ALL OUR TESTS ARE COMPLETELY BROKEN
[14:19] <mandel> dobey: oh, you know already what is going on?
[14:19] <jdobrien> the sky is falling!
[14:19] <dobey> no i have no idea what's going on
[14:21] <nessita> I know I'm fixing control panel and sso tests
[14:21] <dobey> nessita: have you gotten anywhere with that?
[14:22] <nessita> dobey: yes, I'm very close to have that done
[14:22] <fagan> nessita: fix my tests too while your there :D
[14:22] <nessita> dobey: we were using the dbus session worng
[14:22] <nessita> dobey: I; m thinking we may wanna patch dbus. SessionBus with lambda: self.bus in devtools
[14:22]  * fagan is willing to donate 2 beers in london for the cause
[14:23] <nessita> dobey: that way we don't have to fix a crazy amount of tests that use dbus.SessionBus
[14:23] <nessita> dobey: what do you think?
[14:23] <fagan> Im doing the break it and try again approach to fixing my set of tests
[14:23] <dobey> nessita: hrmm, that's an interesting idea
[14:24] <dobey> nessita: i wonder if we should also start a system bus daemon, and do similar with SystemBus()
[14:24] <nessita> dobey: I don t know of any app that uses the SystemBus, but maybe?
[14:25] <nessita> dobey: I will propose a branch, first confirming this "fix" the u1cp test suite
[14:25] <dobey> nessita: well, NM is on the system bus
[14:25] <dobey> nessita: or maybe we should just have the one daemon, and force SystemBus to point to it as well
[14:26] <mandel> dobey, nessita: are this dbus issues in the tests realted with the errors we have in ubuntuone-client, or is it completely diff?
[14:27] <nessita> mandel: I think your issues are the consecuence of a timing issue that was exposed by some changes that added some yields to setUp and tearDown
[14:28] <dobey> mandel: i have no idea why it is happening
[14:28] <dobey> chill and give me time to actually look at it already :)
[14:30] <ralsina> I have to go pack, and have some quality family time. So, EOD for me. If anyone needs reviews, ping me about them, I may do them tomorrow.
[14:34] <mandel> dobey: Oh, I'm very chill, you have my trust 100% I was just wondering :)
[14:34] <dobey> mandel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCujz2HzE7M
[14:36] <dobey> well, ok, not a great video of that scene, since the fool edited it to repeat the "just take it easy" bit
[14:38] <nessita> dobey: pacthing dbus.SessionBus works well! (though there is still some tiny bugs to fix, like releasing the bus name)
[14:39] <dobey> huh
[14:40] <dobey> nothing else should have to be changed for that; if it's a problem then the self.bus.close() is not being called properly
[14:40] <dobey> which means tearDown is not working properly
[14:40]  * dobey watches top running tests in u1client trunk
[14:41] <dobey> ugh
[14:41] <dobey> it is in constant diskwait here
[14:41] <dobey> probably in swap :(
[14:42] <dobey> hrmm, it is leaking like 2M/sec
[14:43] <dobey> but isn't totally outrageous yet
[14:43] <dobey> only at ~120M right now
[14:43] <nessita> dobey: hum... no
[14:43] <nessita> dobey: I added an assertion before the self.bus.close
[14:43] <nessita> and that is failing, let me remove it
[14:44] <dobey> well yes, that would break :)
[14:44] <dobey> ok, and there, tests in u1client blew up for me now too
[14:45] <dobey> wtfh
[14:45] <nessita> dobey: confirmed self.close releases the name
[14:50] <dobey> ok
[14:50] <dobey> so what the heck changed that caused u1client to go nuts
[14:50] <dobey> because i tested my branch several times before proposing it, on sso, cp, and u1client :(
[15:03] <dobey> mandel: so, nessita is fixing cp tests right now, so let's wait and see where she gets with that, and go from there, so we can fix stuff correctly, instead of just continually trying to make stuff work by throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks :)
[15:04] <nessita> +1
[15:04] <nessita> I'm close
[15:10] <nessita> running final check...
[15:10] <mandel> sounds gooh
[15:10] <mandel> good :P
[15:10] <thisfred> heh. The dog just scared the bejeebus out of a Jehova's Witness when she tried to jump past me to say hello
[15:12] <dobey> thisfred: haha. the beast is here!
[15:19] <nessita> dobey, mandel: these two branches, when run together, work like  a charm: https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntuone-dev-tools/fixit/+merge/63386 and https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntuone-control-panel/testingit/+merge/63384
[15:19] <nessita> I will now use the devtools branch within SSO suiteand see what happens
[15:19] <nessita> but first, I will make some mate!
[15:19]  * nessita brbs
[15:27]  * nessita is back
[15:27] <dobey> nessita: hrmm, if you also self.patch dbus.SystemBus, do any tests break?
[15:28] <nessita> didn't try, let me check!
[15:28] <nessita> my money is that they don't
[15:28]  * dobey bets desktopcouch might, but also might not
[15:29] <nessita> glib tests do not break
[15:29] <nessita> running qt now
[15:29] <nessita> all green
[15:29] <nessita> dobey: want me to push that change?
[15:30] <dobey> please
[15:30] <dobey> hrmm, that branch doesn't make u1client tests work right again though
[15:30] <dobey> so clearly it is not the removal of the inlineCallbacks that broke u1client :)
[15:31] <dobey> mandel: can you try? https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntuone-dev-tools/fixit/+merge/63386
[15:33] <nessita> dobey: I'll bet wee need to tweak something on u1client end
[15:33] <nessita> dobey: I can take a look after checking ussoc ones
[15:35] <dobey> well we do need to tweak u1client for sure
[15:35] <dobey> it is pretty broken regarding tests :(
[15:36] <nessita> dobey: all green in ussoc without any tweak
[15:36] <nessita> hum though I'm getting pep8 issues, I will fix those
[15:46] <nessita> dobey: storage protocol all green as well
[15:46] <nessita> onto u1client now
[15:47] <nessita> mandel: trivial review for https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntu-sso-client/testingit/+merge/63389 please?
[15:48] <fagan> nessita: I got the review
[15:48] <dobey> nessita: pep8 fix approved
[15:48] <dobey> fagan: no need
[15:48] <fagan> awh
[15:49] <nessita> thanks all!
[15:49] <fagan> well too many approvals is better than too little
[15:49] <nessita> indeed
[15:49] <nessita> tons of errors in u1client! YEAH
[15:49]  * nessita fixes
[16:01] <dobey> thisfred: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/617595/ <- got this in desktopcouch tests, i suspect that should not pass, like it does :)
[16:02]  * thisfred looks at the test in question
[16:06] <thisfred> dobey: I think this may have changed with the latest checkin. I have no idea why a meaningless statement would be mocked.
[16:07] <dobey> no idea either
[16:08] <dobey> well, i think the issue is that it's not moacker.expect()ed?
[16:08] <dobey> ctx is a mock object i suspect, and something is trying to access the db_dir attr on it
[16:09] <thisfred> dobey: but there is a line to that effect in the test
[16:10] <thisfred> I guess it's the way to mock attribute access if you're not interested in passing back any result
[16:11] <thisfred> it's weird though. We should as CardinalFang
[16:11] <thisfred> ask
[16:11] <thisfred> guess he's en route already?
[16:12] <thisfred> dobey: so maybe this mock is not in the right place:
[16:12] <thisfred>         self._ctx.db_dir  # searching for files    # pylint: disable=W0104
[16:12] <thisfred> and it was not fixed because the test does not go red
[16:13] <thisfred> and it does not go read because mocker does not fail on unexpected meaningless statements?
[16:13] <thisfred> go red
[16:14] <mandel> nessita: on it
[16:14] <nessita> mandel: is done, no need
[16:14] <nessita> thanks though
[16:14] <thisfred> dobey: also none of those tests actually assert anything
[16:14] <mandel> ouch
[16:15] <jdobrien> thisfred, so what do they do?
[16:15] <jdobrien> thisfred, def <test name>()
[16:15] <jdobrien> pass
[16:16] <thisfred> well, since they mock a bunch of stuff, they do test assumptions about called code and calling order
[16:16] <dobey> thisfred: hrmm
[16:16] <dobey> thisfred: it should fail, mocker raised MatchError :)
[16:17] <dobey> thisfred: something is trapping the exception, it seems
[16:17] <thisfred> dobey: I agree
[16:17] <thisfred> dobey: well, it might be because of the forking, although it *looks* like that is mocked out properly
[16:18] <dobey> ah that could be
[16:18] <dobey> yeah i don't know why it would just do foo.attr as a statement in python, that makes no sense :)
[16:19] <dobey> is that actually inside of a statement or, a new line of one?
[16:21] <dobey> nessita: needsfixing on superfluous comments on devtools branch
[16:21] <dobey> hrmm, i think i need to get lunch now
[16:22] <nessita> dobey: looking
[16:23] <nessita> makes sense, fixing
[16:24] <nessita> pushed
[16:26] <thisfred> dobey: So I think it may be just mocker. This test passes: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/617619/
[16:26] <thisfred> dobey: although I don't even get the warning there
[16:27] <dobey> thisfred: that test doesn't do self.dummy.foo though
[16:28] <dobey> thisfred: you need to poke an attr on the object, not the object itself
[16:28] <thisfred> yeah and that definitely fails
[16:31] <thisfred> dobey: I don't see that error on trunk though, so maybe it does have to do with the new devtools
[16:32] <thisfred> dobey: you have trunk of dc, right?
[16:33] <dobey> yes
[16:33] <dobey> i was running tests with nessita's devtools branch, to check whether the patching of dbus.SystemBus would break the dc tests or not
[16:34] <thisfred> right, so I guess it does, though I don't see how a ctx attribute and dbus should be related. Unless the dbus session is part of the test context, which it may be
[16:36] <dobey> but even then it shouldn't mess up that expectation in mocker
[16:36] <dobey> thisfred: i got the same issue in trunk without using nessita's branch, though
[16:36] <dobey> weird
[16:36] <dobey> anyway, i need to get lunch
[16:36] <dobey> bbiab
[16:38] <dobey> nessita: +1 on devtools, but i'd like another set of eyes to look at it in case i missed something.
[16:38] <dobey> ok, really off now
[16:38] <nessita> dobey: of course
[16:38] <nessita> dobey: and I want u1client tests to pass first as well:-)
[16:57] <nessita> thisfred: ping
[16:59] <thisfred> nessita: pong
[17:00] <nessita> thisfred: would you know why the tests under u1clinent -> eventlog -> test_zglog.py inherit from DBusTwistedTestCase? I don't see any dbus involved
[17:03] <thisfred> nessita: I do not, that's an alecu question, but *maybe* we used to talk to zg through dbus, and then later changed that?
[17:04] <nessita> maybe
[17:04] <nessita> I'm removing the dbus thingy, from my POV, the current code use no dbus at all
[17:04] <thisfred> do the tests pass if you remove the DTTC inheritance?
[17:04] <nessita> no, but the error is unrelated, and makes me realize that the test_log_does_not_err_when_daemon_not_started is wrong
[17:05] <thisfred> ah ok. well I'm fine with removing it, let me know if I can review
[17:05] <nessita> so I think that somethings are working thanks to timing issues, not thanks to the proper writting of those :-)
[17:10] <thisfred> oops. I did it again.
[17:11] <nessita> let's dance britney!
[17:14] <thisfred> one thing I really like about compiz/unity: CTRL+ALT+numeric keypad to position windows
[17:14] <thisfred> nessita: btw, I have the system monitor in unity also
[17:14] <jdobrien> thisfred, how do you set that up?
[17:15] <jdobrien> oh...nm im using a laptop without a numpad
[17:15] <nessita> thisfred: how?
[17:15] <thisfred> nessita: sudo apt-add-repository ppa.launchpad.net/indicator-multiload/stable-daily
[17:15] <jdobrien> oh that's cool
[17:15] <jdobrien> useless on a laptop though
[17:15] <thisfred> then install indicator-multiload
[17:16] <nessita> ahhhh
[17:16] <jdobrien> bbiab
[17:16] <thisfred> jdobrien: ah yeah, hadn't thought of that yet. Working on my laptop I usually do everything fullscreen anyway tho
[17:18] <thisfred> the only time I ever split the screen there is within emacs
[18:09] <dobey> thisfred: they should have named that PPA "oxymoron" instead
[18:10] <thisfred> I think that's the code name ;)
[19:04] <nessita> dobey: ping
[19:04] <dobey> nessita: hi
[19:04] <nessita> dobey: what's the rationale behinf  "len(bus_names) > 2". My question is, why 2 and not, let say, 3?
[19:04] <nessita> behind*
[19:05] <dobey> ugh; rabbitmq
[19:05] <nessita> dobey: I'm thinking that in syncdaemon we may need more than 2 since we have at least 2 faked services being registered: SyncDaemon and NetworkManager
[19:05] <dobey> nessita: because dbus-daemon itself has one name, and our self.bus has one name, so that should be 2
[19:05] <nessita> hum.....
[19:06] <nessita> dobey: what about when we register both SyncDaemon and NetworkManager? we're using 3 names total
[19:06] <dobey> nessita: even still, at that point in the code (DBusTestCase.setUp), there should only be 2, because the fake services shouldn't yet be registered
[19:06] <nessita> you're right
[19:06] <nessita> arghhhhh :-)
[19:07]  * nessita keeps debugging
[19:07] <dobey> so if they're already getting registered, there's a problem in the __mro__ :)
[19:07] <dobey> nessita: are you hitting this problem in a test case that has MI?
[19:08] <nessita> dobey: when running test_dbus alone, I get no issues at all. But when I run test_dbus with the rest of the suite (except those other dbus dependent tests), I'm getting this list_names:
[19:08] <nessita> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/617722/
[19:09] <nessita> dobey: the first test that is run from test_dbus fails in the setUp (I added a pdb right before raising the InvalidSessionBus error)
[19:09] <nessita> well, that is having len() > 3 becasue I was testing my theory, which is wrong
[19:10] <dobey> i wonder where those are coming from then. seems like some other things are creating bus connections elsewhere?
[19:10] <dobey> well, there are 4 there, so still more than 3 :)
[19:10] <nessita> right
[19:10] <nessita> with len() > 2 I get the same list
[19:10] <nessita> dbus.Array([dbus.UTF8String('org.freedesktop.DBus'), dbus.UTF8String(':1.0'), dbus.UTF8String(':1.1'), dbus.UTF8String(':1.2')], signature=dbus.Signature('s'))
[19:11] <nessita> which is SO ODD, since if I move the test_dbus away, all the rest (non dbus suite) pass
[19:11] <nessita> so that means they are not leaving stuff around
[19:11] <dobey> well
[19:11] <dobey> it is weird, yes
[19:12] <dobey> what it means, is that without test_dbus, something else is connecting to the bus; but not using DBusTestCase, most likely :)
[19:13] <dobey> tests.platform.linux.test_messaging
[19:13] <dobey> i wonder if that is one of them
[19:14] <nessita> let's see
[19:14] <dobey> nessita: have you looked in d-feet? i presume the processes with those connections are all the same python process from u1trial?
[19:14] <nessita> dobey: I did, and you presume correctly
[19:14] <dobey> also, test_unity might be one of them
[19:14] <dobey> tests.platform.linux.test_unity
[19:15] <nessita> I moved all the tests away, and I will be adding one by one to see which one is guilty
[19:15] <nessita> test_dbus + test_unity, all green
[19:16]  * nessita keeps going
[19:27] <nessita> test_session is, for now, one the guilty ones
[19:27] <nessita> fixed already, let's keep adding more test files
[19:28] <nessita> dobey: can you think why test_os_helper is messing with dbus?
[19:29] <dobey> i don't know what it does
[19:30] <nessita> dobey: well, it does nothing weird expect importing gio
[19:30] <nessita> does that ring any bell? I'm not familiar with gio
[19:30] <dobey> no, that should be fine
[19:30] <dobey> one second
[19:33] <dobey> nessita: maybe some of the actual unity/notification/zg code is getting run, that makes a dbus connection, and it never gets cleaned up?
[19:33] <fagan> dobey: was that branch you did for the new keyring spec merged?
[19:33] <nessita> dobey: from the test_os_helper, you say?
[19:33] <dobey> what branch?
[19:33] <dobey> nessita: yes, since it's doing file deletes/moves/etc...
[19:33] <nessita> perharps
[19:33] <dobey> nessita: and zg is all about logging those :)
[19:33] <fagan> dobey: I reviewed one a while back that fixes the gnome 3 ppa thing with the keyring
[19:34] <dobey> fagan: i have made no such branches; and the one fix which did land does not fix all the problems
[19:34] <nessita> dobey: True. SInce that;'s the only test pending to fix, I'll debug by running/adding one test at a time
[19:34] <dobey> and i've been dealing with more critical issues at the moment
[19:35] <fagan> dobey: ah ok I was just wondering if it was fixed or not for 11.10
[19:36] <dobey> no it's not fixed
[19:36] <dobey> not completely anyway
[19:36] <fagan> cool
[20:05] <dobey> nessita: find it? :)
[20:05] <nessita> dobey: not yet, I'm running the whole suite to confirm that's the only missing piece to fix :-)
[20:06] <nessita> so far so good!
[20:07] <dobey> ok
[20:07] <dobey> great!
[20:07] <dobey> it's not taking 2 GB of RES is it?
[20:07] <nessita> OH NO
[20:07] <nessita> I was so close
[20:07] <nessita>   DBusTwistedTestCase
[20:07] <nessita>     runTest ... > /home/nessita/canonical/u1/devtools/fixit/ubuntuone/devtools/testcase.py(245)setUp()
[20:07] <nessita> -> raise InvalidSessionBus('Too many bus connections: %s (%r)' %
[20:07]  * nessita cries
[20:08] <nessita> dobey: I'll check
[20:09] <nessita> ok, there are stuff outside platform that are doing nasty stuff with dbus
[20:09] <nessita> let's narrow this down...
[20:10] <nessita> tests/api is empty, I'll remove that dir
[20:20] <fagan> see you all on monday
[20:20] <fagan> or sunday :D
[20:46] <nessita> dobey: is the bus being created in the dbustestcase a copy of the real session bus?
[20:46] <nessita> I would guess no, but want to confirm
[20:47] <dobey> no
[20:49] <dobey> nessita: the whole point is to avoid talking to anything on the real session bus, and breaking things
[20:49] <nessita> of course
[20:50] <nessita> but when running together tests from tests/syncdaemon and tests/platform, the single first test that uses DbusTestCase fails having 25 things in list_names
[20:53] <nessita> hum, I think I *may* have a clue
[20:53] <nessita> my god, tets/platforms is an import nightmare
[20:54] <nessita> an AWEFUL one
[20:57] <dobey> heh
[20:58] <dobey> :)
[20:58] <nessita> dobey: you asked before, resident memory is at 150m and growinf
[20:58] <nessita> growing
[20:59] <nessita> 200
[21:00] <nessita> 230 and seems "stable"
[21:00] <dobey> nessita: ok, sounds like stuff is still pretty badly broken; protocol from nightlies might help if you update to it
[21:00] <nessita> ack
[21:02] <nessita> found an ungly stuff:
[21:02] <nessita>      23 class TestStatusIPC(MockerTestCase, IPCTestCase):
[21:02] <nessita> that is surely making disasters
[21:02] <nessita> since IPCTestCase == DBusTwistedTestCase
[21:02] <nessita> and setUp only calls      28         super(TestStatusIPC, self).setUp()
[21:05] <jdobrien> nessita, oops
[21:06] <dobey> nessita: right, but super() should call all the parent classes
[21:06] <dobey> nessita: problem is the ordering probably mucks up the __mro__
[21:06] <nessita> dobey: yeah, but it will not yield on the setUp() from DBusTwistedTestCase
[21:06] <nessita> which needs to be yield on
[21:07] <dobey> nessita: simply switching it to (IPCTestCase, MockerTestCase) might fix it
[21:07] <nessita> nopes, we need to yield on IPCTestCase.setUp()
[21:07] <dobey> nessita: right, so it also needs to have the yield and inlineCallbacks :)
[21:07] <nessita> yeap
[21:07] <dobey> you have to call super()
[21:07] <dobey> right tcole?
[21:08] <nessita> I'm switching to remove the multiple inheritance
[21:08] <nessita> is not needed
[21:08] <dobey> ok
[21:08] <tcole> we need both super and chaining
[21:08] <nessita> but thanks
[21:08] <tcole> but if removing spurious MI can make things better that's good too
[21:09] <nessita> yeap
[21:09] <dobey> tcole: by super *and* chaining, you mean both super(Child, self).foo() and Parent1.foo(), Parent2.foo()?
[21:10] <tcole> no, by chaining I mean chaining the deferred callbacks returned from setUp
[21:10] <tcole> via yield or simple addCallback
[21:10] <tcole> er, yield+inlineCallbacks
[21:10] <tcole> there needs to be an unbroken callback chain built that encompasses the entire class hierarchy
[21:10] <dobey> right, ok
[21:11] <dobey> so yield super() + inlineCallbacks, as i said :)
[21:28] <nessita> so, I will run some more tests and then I'll give up
[21:29] <nessita> I need to do some laundry and to prepare my suitcase
[21:29] <nessita> dobey: I guess we can pair up next week and try to nail this
[21:29] <nessita> I'm close, but not close enough
[21:29] <dobey> nessita: well i don't think you will need to make more changes to devtools to fix client, at this point?
[21:30] <nessita> not at all
[21:30] <nessita> devtools is correct (tm)
[21:30] <nessita> the problem is in our tests
[21:30] <dobey> tcole: could you maybe review nessita's devtools branch?
[21:31] <nessita> tcole: https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntuone-dev-tools/fixit/+merge/63386 (thanks!)
[21:32] <nessita> dobey: in the mean time, I'm running the whole suite (until it blows up, it will be soon enough) with the new u1sp
[21:32] <tcole> I'll have a look
[21:32] <nessita> I will report RES usage: so far 130<
[21:32] <nessita> 130m
[21:32] <nessita> and growing
[21:32] <nessita> 160
[21:33] <nessita> 200
[21:33] <nessita> oops, it jumped to 300
[21:33] <dobey> hmm
[21:34] <tcole> nessita: +1
[21:34] <nessita> tcole: thanks!
[21:36]  * dobey has to do laundry and pack and all that jazz too, still
[21:37] <nessita> ok, I'm off
[21:37] <nessita> I will push this branch and hope that the time make it work (?)
[21:37] <dobey> heh
[21:46] <dobey> meh
[21:47] <tcole> dobey: hmm, unfortunately the rabbitmqctl breaks things on my machine ... apparently there's not a one-size-fits-all fix
[21:47] <tcole> s/breaks/change breaks/
[21:48] <dobey> what does python -c 'import socket; print socket.hostname()' give you?
[21:48] <dobey> and what does that resolve to?
[21:49] <nessita> ok, I'm gone (for real now)
[21:49] <nessita> bye all! see ya next week
[21:50] <dobey> cheers nessita
[22:04] <thisfred> yeah, I'm about to head out too, unless there's something I can help anyone with right now?
[22:07] <thisfred> going, going, gONE
[22:30] <dobey> i'm out too; see all you u1 hackers on sunday!
[23:42] <jo-erlend> is there some good documentation of the client protocol and the storage protocol, if they are different things? They're implemented in Python? I thought I'd have a look at it and see if I have anything to contribute.


[19:00] <nhandler> topyli, jussi, tsimpson, elky: Who is around?
[19:00] <tsimpson> \o
[19:01] <topyli> \o
[19:02] <topyli> i suppose jussi will also join, give him a minute
[19:03] <jussi> sorry, Im here
[19:03] <jussi> #startmeeting
[19:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:03. The chair is jussi.
[19:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:04] <jussi> [topic] Add eir to #ubuntu
[19:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Add eir to #ubuntu
[19:04] <jussi> nhandler:
[19:04] <nhandler> tsimpson: Do you want to give a brief summary about the eir-ubottu integration progress?
[19:04] <jussi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal#Add%20eir%20to%20%23ubuntu
[19:05] <tsimpson> jussi: you forgot the fixed items
[19:05] <jussi> oh yeah
[19:05] <jussi> hang on.
[19:05] <jussi> No new bugs
[19:05] <topyli> zarro boogs
[19:06] <jussi> bah, slow wiki
[19:06] <jussi> ok, lets go onto nhandler's item
[19:07] <jussi> I can get the TR up yet
[19:07] <jussi> oh, wait, here it is
[19:07]  * rww is multitasking and tabbing in and out of this window
[19:07] <jussi> so, tsimpson, you did a wiki page for the UDS ideas. did we get many?
[19:09] <jussi> My action: Action: jussi to get staff to drop #ubuntu-helpteam
[19:09] <jussi> I did do that
[19:09] <jussi> and the whole ircc had an action: IRCC to drop unused and off-topic channels, and contact other channels with freenode-staff as founder
[19:09] <jussi> any of you want to comment on it?
[19:10] <jussi> topyli: tsimpson nhandler!
[19:10] <topyli> it's not done
[19:10] <nhandler> jussi: That was my idea for a project for the next cycle. We started it, but it will take some time
[19:10] <jussi> ok, looks like terence has departed...
[19:11] <jussi> so, nhandler, have you anymore to say about eir?
[19:12] <nhandler> jussi: tsimpson has been working on getting ubottu to be able to keep the BT updated when people use eir to manage bans. He says he is alsmost ready to test that functionality. Once it is working, we will get eir added
[19:12] <jussi> right, that seems pretty clear to me - would like to know how that is progressing.
[19:13] <jussi> Unfortunately I guess we cant right now.
[19:13] <nhandler> jussi: It looks like it is coming along pretty well if he is almost ready for testing
[19:13] <jussi> [topic] any other business?
[19:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  any other business?
[19:13] <topyli> there is the namespace limits item
[19:14] <topyli> jussi: ^
[19:14] <LjL> i have an issue to raise
[19:14] <jussi> oh, yeah I forgot that
[19:14] <jussi> LjL: please do
[19:14] <jussi> topyli: Ill get to that in a min
[19:15] <LjL> i previously contacted the IRC Council about idoru in #ubuntu. i've found out that it has what is in my opinion a worryingly high number of misfirings (people who repeat their question, or people who crosspost, mostly). the IRC Council might be able to provide the pastebin post i gave them detailing my findings (i'm not on my computer at the moment)
[19:15] <jussi> http://paste.ubuntu.com/594660/
[19:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/594660/
[19:16] <LjL> thanks
[19:16] <jussi> LjL: what action would you like to see happen?
[19:17] <LjL> jussi: ideally idoru should be adjusted, but i guess that's up to freenode staff. if the situation can't be improved quite quicky, i'd recommend idoru to be removed from #ubuntu for now
[19:18] <rww> As I've mentioned in #ubuntu-ops in the past, I have the same opinion as LjL on this. It seems a very sub-optimal user experience for people seeking help (albeit over-enthusiastically) to suddenly find themselves ejected from the network.
[19:18] <LjL> note, for those that might not know, that idoru actually k-lines.
[19:18] <rww> It's not good for Ubuntu's image and it's bad catalysing.
[19:20] <nhandler> One thing to note, even if we didn't have idoru in #ubuntu, many of these people would have still gotten hit by idoru for what they have done in other channels.
[19:20] <rww> Then hopefully other channels will follow suit until idoru is fixed.
[19:21] <nhandler> Well, you are looking at things from a single channel point of view. Sending the same question to all somewhat-related channels on the network is definitely not a good thing. And idoru does catch MANY bots and other problem users each days
[19:21] <rww> I'm looking at things from the point of view that freenode's bot has a 50% accuracy rate and is doing things that I would be told off for doing.
[19:22] <nhandler> Well, that all depends on your definition of "accurate"
[19:22] <rww> If I kickbanned people, even temporarily, for crossposting without any sort of warning, I'd expect an IRCC member to PM me shortly. What idoru is doing is worse than kickbanning.
[19:23] <jussi> nhandler: are there any opportunities for people to contribute to idoru?
[19:23] <nhandler> rww: That is because you are a channel operator, not a network opper. Some things might not necessarly violate a channel's policies, but they might violate network rules.
[19:23] <jussi> wb tsimpson
[19:23] <nhandler> jussi: In what way?
[19:23] <jussi> nhandler: is idoru open source? can we do the work?
[19:23] <nhandler> jussi: They can contribute suggestions, but the source is not available.
[19:23] <rww> nhandler: freenode's bot is violating freenode's guidelines on catalysing and Ubuntu's guidelines on operating.
[19:24] <rww> It really is as simple as that from where I'm sitting.
[19:24] <topyli> it's not really bound by any ubuntu guidelines though
[19:24] <tsimpson> power cut :/
[19:25] <rww> topyli: It's effectively denying access to #ubuntu using information it gets from sitting in #ubuntu. It should be.
[19:25] <tsimpson> so, I was going to say that I think I have a working implementation of eir integration, and I should be ready for so live testing soon-ish
[19:25] <nhandler> rww: Like I mentioned, users would still be getting klined and prevented from accessing #ubuntu even if the bot wasn't in there
[19:26] <LjL> i'd like to point out, also, that i've been super careful in writing the floodbots so that they wouldn't *temporarily* the wrong people, and for quite a while i still had people who were concerned about it. then a freenode bot is suddenly introduced that partly duplicates the functionality, except it k-lines at first offence.
[19:26] <nhandler> tsimpson: Great. LjL brought up the idoru topic
[19:26] <tsimpson> it will only interact with the btset eir command and only in #ubuntu-ops-team
[19:26] <rww> nhandler: I've already answered that.
[19:27] <nhandler> LjL: The FloodBots are channel bots, banning and quieting to deal with channel problems. idoru is designed for the network
[19:27] <LjL> well, it acts on things that are happenings on just #ubuntu too, though.
[19:27] <LjL> anyway my point is that two different and contrary criteria are being applied.
[19:28] <jussi> LjL: however, the happenings that are only ubuntu are rarely false positives, no?
[19:28] <nhandler> jussi: That depends on what you consider a "false positive".
[19:28] <LjL> jussi: they are *MOSTLY* false positives.
[19:28] <LjL> jussi: my paste only contains things were something visible happened in #ubuntu, note that
[19:29] <jussi> LjL: but you only monitored #u, not the who network, right?
[19:30] <jussi> so if someone did those things across lots of channels, it wouldnt be a false positive?
[19:30] <LjL> jussi: i'm pretty sure repeating the same question quickly three or four times will get you k-lined even if you only do that in #ubuntu
[19:31] <LjL> i'd prefer not to give a practical demonstration but i will if you're not convinced ;)
[19:31] <jussi> nhandler: can you comment here?
[19:31] <rww> If I sat in every channel on the network and kickbanned people that crossposted their question to three different channels from #ubuntu, would that be acceptable behavior?
[19:31] <nhandler> LjL: Not necessarily. There are some checks in idoru to prevent people from getting klined. Although, I cannot reveal what those are.
[19:32] <jussi> rww: no, because you are not a network staffer. its freenode staffs decisions if they care to do that
[19:33] <rww> jussi: I do not feel it is right for us to allow the presence of a bot that does things we are not supposed to do, regardless of whether freenode thinks it's a good idea.
[19:33] <nhandler> It is also worth noting that idoru is a very big asset when we get large bot attacks in #ubuntu or on the network in general
[19:33] <LjL> the floodbots also deal with attacks on #ubuntu
[19:33] <jussi> rww: you arent supposed to kline anyone (and you cant) - so therefore we shouldnt allow freenode staffers?
[19:34] <LjL> the way you and jussi are speaking, you're sounding like #ubuntu should be a well to draw from for idoru to ban :\
[19:34] <nhandler> We are looking at channel issues, staff focus on network issues
[19:34] <rww> jussi: I'm applying the strongest equivalent I can do. If it's not acceptable for me to be kickbanning people, it doesn't make sense for it to be acceptable for it to kline people.
[19:35] <rww> This is an Ubuntu IRC Council meeting. Our scope is deciding what's best for Ubuntu and its IRC channels. K-lining people without warning for the sort of things idoru k-lines people for 50% of the time is not best for Ubuntu or its IRC channels.
[19:35] <topyli> note that we don't really get to say what is and what isn't acceptable for freenode staff or their bots to do. we can discuss having idoru in #ubuntu or removing it
[19:36] <rww> We have bots that get rid of spammers from #ubuntu just as well or better than idoru does, with a lot less mess.
[19:36] <jussi> right, I still fell idoru does more good than harm, and on that basis, I would like it to stay.
[19:36] <tsimpson> the point of idoru is that it doesn't just look at #ubuntu
[19:36] <tsimpson> it looks at many channels, and so is better able to protect #ubuntu
[19:37] <rww> tsimpson: 1) It doesn't actually protect #ubuntu better than the Floodbots, in my experience, 2) we have a bo that does that anyway.
[19:38] <LjL> 3) it kills a lot of innocents
[19:38] <nhandler> So for instance, if a bot attack starts taking place in #freenode, idoru has the ability to kline the bots before they have a chance to spread to #ubuntu as well as the reverse (killing #ubuntu bots before they hit other channels)
[19:38] <LjL> which is the main point here i'm sure
[19:38] <tsimpson> rww: it does, if a spammer spams #ubuntu, a kill is better than a temporary quiet
[19:38] <rww> tsimpson: If a spammer spams #ubuntu, FloodBot quiets them until our capable op team notices and removes them.
[19:38] <rww> afaik, we effectively have 24/7 coverage these days
[19:38] <rww> unlike, I note, freenode staff.
[19:39] <tsimpson> rww: and if no op is active, people just suffer
[19:39] <LjL> and people don't suffer when they get k-lined for having crossposted or repeated a little?
[19:39] <tsimpson> the thing we are missing, and which we can only speculate on, is how many attacks/spam/floods the bot *has* protected #ubuntu from
[19:39] <nhandler> rww: That isn't necessarily true
[19:39] <rww> tsimpson: which is what happens when no ircops are looking at idoru
[19:39] <LjL> tsimpson: no we aren't
[19:39] <LjL> nobody is missing that
[19:39] <LjL> the problem is
[19:39] <LjL> LOT OF FALSE POSITIVES COMPARED TO TRUE POSITIVES
[19:39] <LjL> even possibly the majority
[19:39] <LjL> and that is SIMPLY NOT ACCEPTABLE
[19:40] <tsimpson> rww: we don't have 24/7 coverage in #ubuntu, even with all the ops we have
[19:40] <nhandler> LjL: That is based on your definition of "false positive"
[19:40] <topyli> calm down please :)
[19:40] <LjL> nhandler: yes, i'm sure my definition always fit that of ubuntu ops until now
[19:40] <LjL> repeating is not a k-lineable offence
[19:40] <LjL> crossposting a valid question is not a k-lineable offence
[19:40] <LjL> freenode is free to think otherwise, but Ubuntu can and should be free to refuse having their bot in #ubuntu
[19:41] <tsimpson> we are free to refuse having the bot in #ubuntu
[19:41] <LjL> that said, if idoru is allowed to stay in its current form, i believe the floodbots are just duplicating functionality (idoru is "more effective" as it both k-lines and acts more frequently)
[19:41] <tsimpson> no pressure has been applied for us to have it, we asked for it and we got it
[19:41] <nhandler> LjL: That isn't necessarily true. And the floodbots check for different things than idoru
[19:44] <topyli> so. should we remove idoru from #ubuntu for some trial period and see if heaven falls?
[19:44] <topyli> nhandler: can we get it back easily in case of heavenly threat?
[19:44] <tsimpson> topyli: I don't think we should
[19:44] <tsimpson> if we remove it for some time, it gets removed for that time
[19:45] <jussi> [vote] remove idoru from #ubuntu for some trial period and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen?
[19:45] <MootBot> Please vote on:  remove idoru from #ubuntu for some trial period and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen?.
[19:45] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:45] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:45] <tsimpson> otherwise we get no real data on how useful it is
[19:45] <topyli> tsimpson: just trying to formulate a proposal we can decide on
[19:45] <nhandler> -1
[19:45] <MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[19:45] <jussi> wait
[19:46] <jussi> [endvote]
[19:46] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: -1
[19:46] <jussi> lets try again
[19:46] <topyli> heh. didn't pass. next!
[19:46] <jussi> [vote] remove idoru from #ubuntu for a 2 week trial and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen?
[19:46] <MootBot> Please vote on:  remove idoru from #ubuntu for a 2 week trial and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen?.
[19:46] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:46] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:46] <nhandler> -1
[19:46] <MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[19:46] <jussi> That should be long enough to tell, but not disrupt too much
[19:46] <jussi> +1
[19:47] <MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:47] <topyli> +1
[19:47] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:47] <tsimpson> +0
[19:47] <MootBot> Abstention received from tsimpson. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:48] <tsimpson> I'm not convinced it needs to go, but as the vote is currently +1, we should go forward with it
[19:48] <tsimpson> (count my +0 as a 50% -1, 50% +1)
[19:48] <topyli> the only way to find out, come hell or high water
[19:48] <nhandler> tsimpson: A majority of the seated council is not in agreement
[19:48] <jussi> [endvote]
[19:48] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1
[19:49] <tsimpson> nhandler: which is why I stated the above, if it's required I change it to +1 in this instance
[19:49] <jussi> We need to get a + or - from elky
[19:49] <nhandler> tsimpson: Alright, that would be better (per the charter)
[19:49] <tsimpson> nhandler: I personally don't agree with it, but if it helps bring an end to the argument I'll go for it
[19:49] <jussi> tsimpson: so you have chnged to a +1 ?
[19:50] <tsimpson> jussi: technically
[19:50] <jussi> ok
[19:50] <nhandler> Shall I action it?
[19:50] <tsimpson> my +1 is more for the "get the argument resolved"
[19:50] <jussi> [action] remove idoru from #ubuntu for a 2 week trial and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen (nhandler)
[19:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  remove idoru from #ubuntu for a 2 week trial and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen (nhandler)
[19:51] <nhandler><PHONE_NUMBER> 13:50:52 -!- idoru [idoru@freenode/utility-bot/ex-server/idoru] has left #ubuntu []
[19:51] <jussi> ok, tsimpson, about eir?
[19:51] <topyli> nhandler: you don't have to monitor the heavens all the time though, the action is just for the bot
[19:51] <nhandler> jussi: He commented on that when he rejoined
[19:51] <nhandler> topyli: :)
[19:51] <topyli> :)
 so, I was going to say that I think I have a working implementation of eir integration, and I should be ready for so live testing soon-ish... it will only interact with the btset eir command and only in #ubuntu-ops-team
[19:52] <jussi> tsimpson: so, what needs to happen next then ?
[19:52] <nhandler> jussi: He needs to finish the code and we need to test it to see if it works
[19:52] <tsimpson> I only need to find a way to get some real-world testing, simulations aren't really good if I control the input data
[19:53] <tsimpson> I *think* it's about ready for real testing, I doubt it's completely working, but I need to test to see if/how/why
[19:53] <nhandler> tsimpson: If you can toggle the channel ubottu monitors for eir commands, I can get you testing
[19:53] <jussi> ok, so is there any action needed? or just continue as was?
[19:53] <tsimpson> nhandler: it's already configurable :)
[19:53] <nhandler> :)
[19:53] <tsimpson> jussi: no action, it's all part of the original action
[19:53] <jussi> ok great.
[19:53] <nhandler> tsimpson: Alright. Poke me when you are ready to test.
[19:54] <tsimpson> nhandler: k
[19:54] <jussi> so, my item thats been hanging for a few weeks
[19:55] <jussi> Im really not sure how to proceed with this, nor what we had intended to document. Im kind of struggling, and Id appreciate a bit of help with it. anyone want to help out?
[19:55] <nhandler> jussi: What item is this again?
[19:55] <tsimpson> our namespace policy thing?
[19:55] <jussi> document the namespace limits
[19:56] <tsimpson> so what kind channels we allow in our namespace and what ones aren't appropriate for our namespace
[19:56] <tsimpson> is #ubuntu-some-random-topic ok, or not...
[19:56] <jussi> In any case, Id appreciate a little help on this.
[19:57] <tsimpson> currently, we have a kind of unwritten policy of allowing ubuntu related teams (as in Launchpad teams) to create channels, but that's not a great policy
[19:58] <tsimpson> anyone can create a launchpad team about anything, and stick the word "ubuntu" in there somewhere
[19:58] <nhandler> Well, the hard part is, there is no way until the GMS is done to really restrict creating a channel
[19:58] <jussi> Just thinking about this, perhaps this is a good thing to discus at UDS?
[19:58] <nhandler> By restrict, I mean through technical means
[19:58] <nhandler> jussi: How many IRCC folks are attending?
[19:59] <tsimpson> but we should still have a policy in place as to what is acceptable as an official channel, and what's not
[19:59] <jussi> nhandler: remotely or in person?
[19:59] <nhandler> jussi: In person
[20:00] <nhandler> tsimpson: Yeah, although for a lot of channels (as we saw when we started going through the list), it is fairly easy to tell if they are appropriate or not
[20:00] <tsimpson> I think just jussi is attending UDS
[20:00] <jussi> Yes, afaik
[20:00] <topyli> we'll of course all attend the irc sessions one way or another :)
[20:00]  * rww has this image of jussi sitting in a room by himself talking to a computer
[20:00] <nhandler> topyli: I probably won't be able to
[20:00] <topyli> oh
[20:01] <nhandler> But in that case, it would probably be better to at least have some discussions before UDS.
[20:01] <tsimpson> I'm not 100% on if I'll be remotely attending or not, I hope to, and I'll try to, but I can't say I will be
[20:01] <topyli> btw fridge says there's another meeting coming up. is this so?
[20:01] <jussi> topyli: which meeting?
[20:01] <nhandler> I also don't want to see us fall into the trap of having decisions/actions made at uds for us if only one person from the council is there. Discussion is fine, but actions should be made after we talk about it
[20:01] <topyli> ubuntu-gaming
[20:01] <topyli> team
[20:02] <nhandler> topyli: Yep. Not sure if they are here or not.
[20:02] <nhandler> Any Ubuntu Gaming folks here for the meeting?
[20:02] <jussi> Ok, well shall we leave it there for the night, talk some about it at UDS, and make a document for the meeting after UDS?
[20:02] <jussi> and anyone want to volunteer to help me out with it ?
[20:02] <tsimpson> there is no reason we can't start the discussion before UDS
[20:03] <nhandler> +1 tsimpson
[20:03] <topyli> i can help, we should have some thoughts to discuss at uds
[20:03] <nhandler> jussi: After the second week in may, I'll have a lot more free time to help with this stuff.
[20:03] <topyli> the sessions are short!
[20:03] <jussi> yes, I agree, my point was to aim for the meeting after udsd to have a document to vote on
[20:03] <tsimpson> I'm sure some people on the CC would probably want to provide some thoughts on what is/isn't appropriate too
[20:03] <jussi> tsimpson: very good point
[20:03] <nhandler> tsimpson: I think they have already done that in a way via the CoC
[20:04] <nhandler> We also have the freenode guidelines for offtopic stuff that we can mention in our doc
[20:04] <tsimpson> nhandler: the CoC is very generalized, some specific thoughts regarding IRC would be nice
[20:04] <topyli> the CoC allows a channel to be created for ubuntu-smokers
[20:04] <tsimpson> all ubuntu channels are required to follow the CoC, but other than that there is no restriction on what is allowed
[20:05] <jussi> In anycase, there is both another meeting, and other places for me to be. can we agree to continue this discussion elsewhere?
[20:05]  * tsimpson senses the mailing list being useful
[20:05] <topyli> let's agree that we'll work on this, and move on :)
[20:05] <topyli> tsimpson: worth a try
[20:06] <jussi> someone want to write the mail to the list?
[20:06] <topyli> jussi: i can't wait to do it
[20:06] <rww> hehe
[20:07] <jussi> [action] Take "Define ubuntu namespace limits" to the mailing list. (topyli)
[20:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Take "Define ubuntu namespace limits" to the mailing list. (topyli)
[20:07] <topyli> err, i can do it if no-one else will :)
[20:07] <jussi> thank you very much. :=)
[20:07] <jussi> #endmeeting
[20:07] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:07.
[20:07] <jussi> thanks everyone
[20:07] <topyli> thanks


[05:01] <nuvolari> fp
[07:37] <Kilos> morning all
[07:37] <Kilos> hi SilverCode you here?
[08:23] <Kilos> aw missed mage and pankreas
[08:24] <Kilos> Maaz, seen kbmonkey
[08:24] <Maaz> Kilos: kbmonkey was last seen 19 hours, 42 minutes and 58 seconds ago in #ubuntu-za on freenode [2012-08-18 14:41:07 SAST], and has been online on freenode since 2012-08-18 14:40:31 SAST
[08:41] <Kilos> hi not_found
[08:42] <not_found> Good morning uncle Kilos
[08:42] <Kilos> hows things lad?
[08:49] <not_found> fuzzy after night shift but all and all I can't complain... and over there in ZA land uncle Kilos
[08:49] <not_found> ?
[08:49] <Kilos> we maintain ty not_found
[08:50] <not_found> k
[08:50] <Kilos> rest before tomorrow nights meet hey
[08:51] <not_found> :)
[08:51] <not_found> Will do
[08:53] <Kilos> lol
[08:55] <Kilos> what nice action kinda game is there to download?  along the lines of red alert or AOE. have 500m night surfer data that i will never use cause im asleep by then
[08:58] <not_found> RTS type game... hmmm
[08:58] <Kilos> whats rts?
[08:58] <not_found> Real Time Strategy...
[08:59] <Kilos> oh ya
[09:00] <not_found> Would suggest checking out Warzone 2010... old one but a good one... Runs very well in Linux and is the big daddy of many modern RTS games...
[09:00] <Kilos> ty not_found
[09:01] <not_found> Can't thing of anything else that is free and will be < than 500mb...
[09:02] <not_found> Ah.. it is warzone 2100
[09:03] <Kilos> ya i see that was just gonna come ask
[09:03] <Kilos> lol
[09:04] <not_found> great... well mouse just froze... guess that means I have to reboot :/ Gaming mouse + Linux = FAIL
[09:04] <Kilos> eish
[09:05] <not_found> :(
[09:05] <not_found> it is time... I will be back much later :p
[09:05] <not_found> cheers for eers
[10:16] <Kilos> hi Trixar_za
[10:16] <Trixar_za> Hey Kilos
[10:31] <bakuman> hi oom Kilos
[10:46] <Kilos> hi bakuman you well?
[10:50] <Kilos> hey you clever guys how does one get this program
[10:50] <Kilos> http://www.getdeb.net/software/Mobile%20Media%20Converter
[10:50] <Kilos> i cant find something to go fetch it for 12.04
[10:51] <Kilos> dunno why they changed their way of doing things, says install from that site but nothing happens
[10:52] <bakuman> works for me
[10:53] <Kilos> installs bakuman ?
[10:53] <bakuman> it says "Googel Chrome needs to launch an externale applitaction" and asks for permission
[10:53] <Kilos> ah im using opera
[10:53] <bakuman> and there is a button "Launch Application"
[10:53] <Kilos> chromium and google chrome are same hey
[10:54] <bakuman> mostly, but not totally
[10:54] <Kilos> should i get google chrome then rather
[10:54] <Kilos> ty for the help, gotta go eat
[11:14] <charlvn> good afternoon
[11:14] <charlvn> Maaz: coffee on
[11:14]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[11:15] <Kilos> hi charlvn
[11:15] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee please
[11:15] <Maaz> Kilos: Sure
[11:15] <Kilos> Maaz, with rusks
[11:15] <Maaz> Kilos: What?
[11:17] <Kilos> Maaz, with rusks
[11:17] <Maaz> There is a packet of Ouma's in the cupboard %who help yourself
[11:17] <charlvn> hi Kilos
[11:17] <Kilos> grr
[11:17] <charlvn> a bug there
[11:17] <charlvn> %who isn't getting replaced
[11:17] <charlvn> i assume that was supposed to be replaced by the person who triggered the response's name
[11:18] <Kilos> with rusks
[11:18] <Kilos> Maaz, with rusks
[11:18] <Maaz> There is a packet of Ouma's in the cupboard Kilos help yourself
[11:18] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charlvn and Kilos!
[11:19] <charlvn> Maaz: thanks
[11:19] <Maaz> charlvn: No problem
[11:19] <Kilos> supposed to be $
[11:19] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[11:19] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[11:19] <charlvn> Maaz: weather bentheim
[11:19] <Maaz> charlvn: City not found
[11:19] <charlvn> Maaz: weather deventer
[11:19] <Maaz> charlvn: City not found
[11:19] <charlvn> Maaz: weather rotterdam netherlands
[11:19] <Maaz> charlvn: In Rotterdam, Netherlands at 12:55 PM CEST on August 19, 2012: 30°C; Humidity: 48%; Wind: South at 11 km/h; Conditions: Clear; Sunrise/set: 6:33 AM CEST/8:56 PM CEST; Moonrise/set: 8:54 AM CEST/9:09 PM CEST
[11:19] <charlvn> Kilos: and you thought it doesn't get warm in northern europe? :)
[11:20] <Kilos> 30 is lekker
[11:20] <charlvn> no it's way too hot for me
[11:20] <charlvn> especially with 48% humidity
[11:20] <charlvn> if it was 20% it would have been different, that's botswana desert temperature
[11:21] <charlvn> Maaz: weather gaborone
[11:21] <Maaz> charlvn: In Seretse Khama, Botswana at 1:00 PM CAT on August 19, 2012: 23°C; Humidity: 31%; Wind: NE at 13 km/h; Conditions: Clear; Sunrise/set: 6:39 AM CAT/6:00 PM CAT; Moonrise/set: 7:29 AM CAT/7:54 PM CAT
[11:21] <charlvn> lol seretse khama, he was the former president
[11:22] <charlvn> Maaz: wikipedia Seretse Khama
[11:22] <Maaz> charlvn: Excuse me?
[11:22] <charlvn> Maaz: help
[11:22] <Maaz> charlvn: I can help you with: looking things up, remembering things, delivering messages, decisions, games, monitoring things, browsing the internet, conversions, silly fun stuff, calculations, system administration, software development and south african stuff.
[11:22] <Maaz> Ask me "help me with ..." for more details.
[11:22] <charlvn> Maaz: help me with looking things up
[11:22] <Maaz> charlvn: I use the following features for looking things up: apt-file, aptitude, bash, bible, dict, distance, dns, factoid, feeds, fml, fortune, google, help, imdb, lastfm, lotto, mac, man, microblog, mlia, oeis, ports, rfc, seen, tfln, tinyurl, tld, translate, tvshow, unicode, weather and youtube
[11:22] <Maaz> Ask me "how do I use ..." for more details.
[11:25] <charlvn> ok dunno how that worked
[11:29] <Squirm> hi
[11:29] <charlvn> hi Squirm
[11:29] <Squirm> zeref: much luck?
[11:29] <Squirm> hi charlvn
[11:41] <Squirm> take that as a no
[11:48] <Kilos> shame
[11:49] <charlvn> Maaz: weather johannesburg
[11:49] <Maaz> charlvn: Too many places match johannesburg: Johannesburg, California; Johannesburg, Michigan and Johannesburg, South Africa
[11:50] <charlvn> Maaz: weather johannesburg, south africa
[11:50] <Maaz> charlvn: In Johannesburg, South Africa at 1:30 PM SAST on August 19, 2012: 18°C; Humidity: 37%; Wind: NNW at 26 km/h; Conditions: Clear; Sunrise/set: 6:32 AM SAST/5:49 PM SAST; Moonrise/set: 7:20 AM SAST/7:45 PM SAST
[11:50] <charlvn> i am very jealous of your weather right now
[11:50] <Kilos> lol
[11:50] <charlvn> i have a fan right next to me and the door is open, just to get some circulation
[11:50] <charlvn> problem in europe is practically nobody has air conditioning
[11:51] <charlvn> unless you are in a nice office building or so but not at home
[11:51] <Kilos> most likely not worth it for 5 warm days a year
[11:51] <charlvn> yup exactly
[11:51] <charlvn> we all have central heating though ;)
[11:51] <charlvn> actually my new appartment has co2 scrubbing too but that's also mainly for winter
[11:52] <Kilos> if you put a dish of water in front of the fan it cools much better
[11:52] <charlvn> because in the summer you can just open the window :P
[11:52] <charlvn> that's a very good tip!
[11:52] <charlvn> thanks Kilos
[11:52] <Kilos> np
[11:53] <charlvn> bbl
[11:54] <Squirm> lol, take it he's gone to fetch some water
[11:56] <Kilos> bakuman, that stupid thing opens with software centre that says its not there
[11:56] <Kilos> grrr
[11:57] <bakuman> haha sighs
[11:58] <Kilos> lol
[11:58] <Kilos> i went to all the trouble of getting chrome as well
[11:58] <Kilos> waste of 32m data
[11:59] <Kilos> maybe illl try it with the fox
[12:05] <Kilos> hi DigiGram
[12:09] <Kilos> hi psydroid
[12:12] <Kilos> Squirm, water for?
[12:12] <Kilos> to cool down with
 if you put a dish of water in front of the fan it cools much better
[12:13] <Kilos> oh charlvn not zeref
[12:13] <Kilos> lol i remembered you saying take that as a no
[12:14] <Squirm> that was for zeref
[12:35] <smile> hi :)
[12:35] <Kilos> hi smile
[12:35] <smile> Kilos: how are you my friend? :)
[12:35] <Kilos> well thanks smile and you?
[12:36] <smile> I'm completely fine :)
[12:36] <smile> I'm writing an photo gallery based upon HTML 5 and JavaScript (using Lightbox)
[12:38] <Kilos> bakuman, i had to add this to the repos
[12:38] <Kilos> wget -q -O- http://archive.getdeb.net/getdeb-archive.key | sudo apt-key add -
[12:39] <Kilos> smile, when you gonna use python for everything
[12:39] <smile> Kilos: when python becomes as light as html ;)
[12:39] <Kilos> only one here that does java is nuvolari
[12:40] <bakuman> Kilos, Java != Javascript :D
[12:40] <bakuman> there is no real alternative for webpage
[12:40] <Kilos> ah
[12:41] <Kilos> i try to save wear and tare on fingers
[12:41] <Kilos> mine are old
[12:41] <Kilos> hehe
[12:41] <smile> :)
[14:02] <smile> bye :)
[17:12] <smile> help me :|
[17:13] <smile> http://hugsmile.eu/dbrf/index2.html <- content at the bottom of the menu, should be at the right :(
[17:24] <Squirm> in your main.css
[17:24] <Squirm> try change
[17:24] <Squirm> #content{
[17:24] <Squirm> 	float:right;
[17:24] <Squirm> 	padding-left: 20px;
[17:24] <Squirm> }
[17:24] <Squirm> hmm, wait
[17:24] <Squirm> I see the conent on the right
[17:25] <smile> Squirm: well yeah I did that :)
[17:25] <smile> Weird :|
[17:26] <Squirm> De Belie V.O.F. is de eenmansvennootschap van Jan De Belie. Onze business bestaat uit:
[17:26] <Squirm> that?
[17:26] <Squirm> is on the right
[17:27] <smile> Squirm: hmm.. :p
[17:27]  * smile looks
[17:28] <smile> Squirm: yeah, but it should be higher
[17:28] <smile> next to the menu
[17:54] <Kilos> hmm
[17:54] <Kilos> busy buncha lurkers
[17:54] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[17:54]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[17:55] <Kilos> Maaz, with rusks
[17:55] <Maaz> There is a packet of Ouma's in the cupboard Kilos help yourself
[17:55] <Kerbero> koffie \o/
[17:55]  * Kilos shares rusks with Kerbero
[17:56] <Kerbero> dankie oom kilos
[17:56] <Kilos> doop n ouma doop n ouma
[17:56] <Kilos> plesier seun
[17:57] <smile> brb :)
[17:58] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[17:59] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[17:59] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[18:12] <Kilos> smile, wb
[18:12] <smile> thanks
[18:12] <smile> :p
[18:12] <smile> didn't work :(
[18:17] <smile> brb
[18:17] <smile> :p
[18:33] <smile> doei!
[19:15] <Kilos> wb superfly
[19:16] <superfly> hi Kilos
[19:16] <Kilos> night all. bed times for us younguns
[19:57] <kodez> greetings everyone
[19:58] <bakuman> hihi
[19:59] <kodez> bakuman how are you today?
[19:59] <bakuman> sick and stuck with my coding, so... bad :D
[19:59] <bakuman> but still relatively happy
[20:00] <bakuman> and you?
[20:00] <kodez> which language?
[20:00] <kodez> i am better than yesterday, thabks for asking
[20:00] <bakuman> python + gtk + glade
[20:00] <kodez> i am relaxing today
[20:00] <bakuman> cool
[20:01] <kodez> kwl, I am lazy to learn python. I must fight my own demons this time
[20:01] <bakuman> python is worth it, relatively easy to do anything
[20:02] <kodez> i had covered the basics and didn't move forward yet
[20:11] <superfly> Python FTW
[20:11] <superfly> GTK FTL
[20:13] <digigram_> PyQt FTW for GUI's
[20:22] <kodez> what's the meaning of FTW?
[20:22] <kodez> and FTL?
[20:22] <superfly> Maaz: google for FTW
[20:22] <Maaz> superfly: "Urban Dictionary: ftw" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ftw :: "FTW: What Is 'FTW'? What Does It Mean?" http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/f/f/What-Is-FTW-for-the-Win.htm :: "What does FTW mean? - FTW Definition - Meaning of FTW ..." http://www.internetslang.com/FTW-meaning-definition.asp :: "FTW - Wiktionary" http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FTW :: "FTW | Press play." http://ftw.co/ :: "FTW - Wikipedia, the free ency
[20:22] <superfly> Maaz: google for FTL
[20:22] <Maaz> superfly: "FTL: Faster Than Light" http://www.ftlgame.com/ :: "Faster-than-light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light :: "FTL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTL :: "Urban Dictionary: ftl" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ftl :: "FTL: Faster Than Light by Subset Games — Kickstarter" http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/64409699/ftl-faster-than-ligh
[20:22] <superfly> digigram_: hear hear :-) PyQt4 FTW
[20:23] <Tonberry> for the lose?
[20:30] <kodez> Tonberry: do we have losers in ubuntu-za family?
[20:31]  * Tonberry shrugs
[20:32] <Tonberry> its an acronym, it expands...
[20:34] <Squirm> evening
[21:13] <kodez> my friends, let me call it a day. let's meet again soon
[21:53] <zeref> hurmmm
[21:57] <charlvn> hi zeref
[21:58] <charlvn> bbl
[21:58] <charlvn> i need to go to sleep :P
[21:58] <zeref> just woken up, starting to learn Django :P
[23:40] <Symmetria> sup
[23:40] <Symmetria> anyone awake?


[05:50] <brian__> hey i have kde 3.5 how do i go about upgrading to kde4
[11:30] <Riddell> happy sunday all
[11:31] <Quintasan> \o
[11:32] <freinhard> oO, not so loud plz!
[11:34]  * smarter wakes up
[11:34]  * freinhard whishes he didn't
[11:36] <freinhard> who thaught that booze is fun? well it is, until you wake up...
[11:38] <Mamarok> hi Riddell :)
[11:41] <Riddell> I'm back in town (for the next two days until I leave for Gran Canaria)
[11:41] <Riddell> oh I should turn off this away message
[11:43] <KelloggsFrosties> hi there. i have problems using KRun::run(). Linker says i have an undefined reference. in makefile i am linking ${KDE4_PLASMA_LIBS} ${KDE4_KDEUI_LIBS} ${LIB_KIO}. am i missing a library?
[11:45] <freinhard> has ktimetracker been dropped from kontact?
[11:45] <Riddell> it should be   ${KDE4_KIO_LIBS}
[11:45] <Riddell> can't say more without seeing the error
[11:45] <seaLne> Riddell: any luck with firewire cards?
[11:45] <Riddell> seaLne: didn't have time yesterday I'm afraid, but let me see if they're open today
[11:46] <Riddell> seaLne: yes they are, I'll go now
[11:46] <seaLne> thanks, so i'm still needing 2
[11:47] <seaLne> i emptied the shops in glasgow yesterday and only got 6
[11:47] <Riddell> there's silicon computers over the road if they don't
[11:47] <Riddell> and my flatmate says he has one I could probably borrow
[11:48]  * Riddell back in 20 mins
[11:48] <KelloggsFrosties> Riddell: Oh man.  Thats it. Thanks!
[11:50]  * Quintasan <3 his new pbuilder
[12:00] <neversfelde> Riddell: something went wrong with the choqok backport, it never appeared in the archives
[12:00] <neversfelde> bug #387041
[12:12] <Riddell> seaLne: mission accomplished
[12:12] <Riddell> 20 quid each
[12:13] <Riddell> neversfelde: flushed
[12:13] <Riddell> it'll still need New approval
[12:15] <neversfelde> Riddell: thanks
[12:17] <lex79> Riddell: come back from vacation ? :P
[12:18] <Riddell> back from non-computer land anyway
[12:18] <seaLne> Riddell: thanks
[12:18] <Riddell> lex79: shall I upload 4.5.2
[12:18] <Riddell> seaLne: is it best if I claim from akademy in gran canaria or from KDE GB?
[12:18] <lex79> yes and koffice maybe
[12:19] <Riddell> erk, that should have been uploaded yonks ago
[12:19]  * Quintasan is going out
[12:19] <lex79> I know :(
[12:20] <seaLne> Riddell: depends if you are claiming anything else from akademy, if not probably easiest to just give me the reciept and i'll give you the money and add it to the other ~6k i've spent
[12:26] <freinhard> packages.ubuntu.com down?
[12:40] <Riddell> freinhard: broken here
[12:41] <freinhard> lookslike ktimetracker_plugin.desktop got lost. http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/4.3/kdepim/kontact/plugins/ktimetracker/
[12:43] <freinhard> hmm maybe BUILD_ktimetracker wasn't set for kontact
[12:54] <Riddell> lex79: where is koffice2?
[12:54] <lex79> https://edge.launchpad.net/~alessandro-ghersi/+archive/ppa
[14:05] <Riddell> lex79: phew, qt and koffice 2 uploaded, thanks for those
[14:05] <Riddell> anything else?  eigen somewhere?
[14:06] <Riddell> there it is in the PPA
[14:07] <lex79> eigen2 and akonadi in ppa
[14:07] <lex79> Riddell: ^
[14:09] <lex79> Riddell: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/digikam/2:1.0.0~beta1-1ubuntu1
[14:09] <lex79> dependency wait....
[14:09] <Riddell> lex79: looks like I can just sync eigen from debian now
[14:09] <lex79> I fixed digikam in my ppa
[14:10] <lex79> ok for eigen
[14:22] <Riddell> lex79: should we be doing a MIR for liblqr?
[14:23] <lex79> yes
[14:25] <Riddell> lex79: digikam uploaded, you're definately on a roll
[14:25] <lex79> yeah :D
[14:36] <lex79> koffice2 uploaded to backports
[14:39] <Riddell> yay
[16:38] <hsitter>  While trying to retrieve the URL: http://wiki.kubuntu.org/
[16:38] <hsitter>  The following error was encountered:
[16:38] <hsitter>  Unable to forward this request at this time.
[16:38] <hsitter> poor squid
[16:38] <hsitter> nixternal: I suppose that is a good reason against having the todo in the wiki :P
[16:50] <Mamarok> hsitter: Launchpad is not reachable neither, and some other sites are down too
[16:54] <JontheEchidna> launchpad works here, but it's crawling
[16:58] <nixternal> hsitter: it is the weekend, you aren't supposed to be working
[16:58] <nixternal> though I am getting ready to head to an Ubuntu Chicago event
[16:58] <hsitter> hm
[16:58]  * hsitter better does something else then
[17:01] <ScottK> Riddell: While you were out I got all the seeds/metapackage/CD building stuff for kubuntu-netbook done.  I'm just waiting for the CD team to upload my debian-cd changes and then we can start to build images.
[17:02] <ScottK> There's probably some work to be done to rationalize the seed changes and make them more maintainable (perhaps a kubuntu-common seed that both desktop and netbook would use.
[17:08] <nixternal> ScottK: what are the big differences between the seeds right now?
[18:04] <Riddell> ScottK: excellent
[18:40] <hsitter> gnome zeitgeist is coming to the blue K
[18:46] <seaLne> hsitter: won't nepomuk type stuff in kde achieve the same?
[18:47] <hsitter> kind off
[18:47] <hsitter> as I understand it, zeitgeist currently is a data aggregator
[18:47] <hsitter> while nepomuk is more of a receiver
[18:48] <hsitter> such as zeitgeist would be trying to rape amarok of it's data, while nepomuk depends on amarok to give them to it
[18:48] <hsitter> oh
[18:48] <DaskreeCH> hsitter: Via whom?
[18:48] <hsitter> gotta jet :)
[18:48] <hsitter> DaskreeCH: itself
[18:49] <DaskreeCH> Gnome is making a KDE version of Zeitgeist ?
[18:51] <DaskreeCH> Zeitgeist looks interesting but needed some focus last time I looked at tit
[18:51] <DaskreeCH> Everytime I had a question about it no one really knew what the outlook on that was supposed to be
[20:34] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: can't reproduce show system accounts problem here (userconfig)
[20:45] <hsitter> yuriy: why is the details section using lineedits?
[20:45] <hsitter> gave me the wrong impression there is something to be edited there ...
[20:46] <hsitter> yuriy: also it needs a search field :)
[20:47] <hsitter> yuriy: X-DocPath=kcontrol/colors/index.html
[20:47] <hsitter> ?
[20:47] <hsitter> from the desktop file that is
[20:47]  * hsitter recommends to at least fix that and add a documentation that states that there is no documentation yet... ;-)
[20:50] <yuriy> hsitter: that was probably copied out of somewhere. what should it say though?
[20:50] <hsitter> userconfig/index.html
[20:50] <yuriy> hsitter: the details section is using lineedits cause that's what it did in the kde3 version ;) that's why I made a wiki page for UI suggestions
[20:51] <yuriy> hsitter: and where does that file come from?
[20:51] <hsitter> then you add nice and fancy documentation that says: we are terribly sorry but at this time there is no documentation available
[20:51]  * yuriy knows nothing about docs
[20:51] <hsitter> if you want to help create one....
[20:51] <yuriy> if you want to help create one, what?
[20:51] <hsitter> about the documenation
[20:52] <hsitter> /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/ is where the docs go
[20:52] <yuriy> as in, what should a person do if they want to help with docs?
[20:53] <hsitter> yuriy: well, make something up
[20:53] <hsitter> "poke nixternal" or something like that ;-)
[20:53] <hsitter> that reminds me
[20:53] <hsitter> nixternal: why are you not doing bug triage anymore?
[21:00] <jussi01> hsitter: could you drop kubotu out of #kubuntu-offtopic?
[21:00] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: so when you first open up userconfig in system settings, it only shows the user accounts?
[21:01] <yuriy> shtylman: does ubiquity do user name validation? I can't find the code for it
[21:02] <JontheEchidna> http://imagebin.ca/view/T2mCE3a.html <- what my userconfig looks like when it's first opened
[21:06] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: oh hmm indeed, when in system settings
[21:09] <hsitter> kubotu: part #kubuntu-offtopic
[21:09] <kubotu> hsitter, you don't have 'basics::move::part' permissions here
[21:09] <hsitter> -.-
[21:10] <hsitter> kubotu: part #kubuntu-offtopic
[21:11] <hsitter> oh
[21:11] <hsitter> eh
[21:11] <hsitter> JontheEchidna, yuriy: did the root patch get lost?
[21:12] <hsitter> works just fine on jaunty
[21:12] <JontheEchidna> hsitter: yeah, got broked
[21:13] <hsitter> repair it then
[21:13] <hsitter> you know how it is, we will forget
[21:13] <hsitter> just like we forgot about indi
[21:13]  * JontheEchidna wasn't the one who unapplied it :P
[21:14]  * JontheEchidna wonders if there is a bzr blame
[21:14] <hsitter> oh
[21:14] <hsitter> \o/
[21:14] <hsitter> karmic doesn't fit on 800x600
[21:14] <hsitter> way to go dudes
[21:16] <jussi01> yippee.... :P
[21:16] <nixternal> hsitter: huh?
[21:16] <hsitter> desktop all messed up
[21:16] <nixternal> I fix bugs
[21:16] <nixternal> let the others sort the bugs out
[21:17] <hsitter> nixternal: there are no others!
[21:17] <hsitter> JontheEchidna and a bit of me
[21:17] <hsitter> that is the others
[21:21] <nixternal> hsitter: what do I need to triage?
[21:22] <nixternal> I figured since I am such a huge rockstar in this community, that I was above bug triage now, I thought it was for my minions
[21:22] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: fix committed
[21:23] <dtchen> nixternal: haha
[21:23] <dtchen> triaging is the most tedious, underrated, underappreciated task
[21:30] <hsitter> nixternal: like you got minions? :P
[21:30] <hsitter> nixternal: kdepim needs help
[21:30] <nixternal> I have plenty of minions!
[21:31] <hsitter> also fixwise, so you could triage and then fix and stuff :P
[21:31] <hsitter> nixternal: just none for kubuntu, hu? :P
[21:32] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: yay
[21:41] <nixternal> hsitter: just let me know which ones you want me to triage and I will work on them...everytime I pick something to work on, someone steps on my toes, or I step on their toes
[21:41] <nixternal> tired of doing that
[21:43] <dtchen> we used to use a wiki for that ;-)
[21:43] <dtchen> i guess that would be the dark ages of motu now
[21:44] <hsitter> hehe
[21:45] <hsitter> nixternal: just walk through the NEW bugs
[21:57] <neversfelde> which applications should get a bzr branch like choqok
[21:57] <neversfelde> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/choqok/ubuntu
[21:57] <neversfelde> ?
[21:57] <yuriy> how do i get cmake to install documentation?
[22:25] <freinhard> where do build options for kdepim get set? can't find anything in debian/
[22:37] <Riddell> freinhard: mostly in the cdbs makefiles included from debian/rules
[22:41] <freinhard> Riddell: still a bit confused about cmake. i guess BUILD_* get's set during the build process?
[22:45] <Riddell> freinhard: /usr/share/pkg-kde-tools/makefiles/1/variables.mk sets -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Debian and -DKDE4_BUILD_TESTS=false and others
[22:45] <Riddell> cdbs is very abstracted so it's easy to get lost with what actually sets what
[22:45] <Riddell> once file includes another which sets a variable which gets used in another included file
[22:46] <Riddell> and it's Makefile which a weird syntax mixed with the weird syntax of bash so it's not always easy to read
[22:47] <freinhard> Riddell: the reason why i ask: kontact/plugins/ktimetracker/ktimetracker_plugin.desktop does not get installed
[22:47] <freinhard> added it to the debian/*.install file but the build failed cause the file was missing
[22:48] <freinhard> so i guess BUILD_ktimetracker is not being set.
[22:51] <Riddell> that should get set by cmake I'm pretty sure
[22:52] <Riddell> as part of macro_optional_add_subdirectory(ktimetracker) in the top CMakeLists.txt file
[22:56] <freinhard> are .install files autogenerated?
[22:57] <Riddell> no
[22:57] <Riddell> hand made
[22:58] <freinhard> k, then that file got lost between jaunty and karmic
[22:58] <Riddell> but nothing about ktimetracker_plugin mentioned in http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27650013/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.kdepim_4%3A4.2.90-0ubuntu1_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz
[22:59] <freinhard> k, so the subdir isn't built
[22:59] <freinhard> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=ktimetracker_plugin.desktop&mode=exactfilename&suite=jaunty&arch=any
[23:01] <Riddell> not from my reading of the build log
[23:01] <Riddell> which is strange, I can't see why it shouldn't be
[23:04] <neversfelde> I would be happy to get bilbo blogger over the line this time, so if some of you have the time it would be great, if you could review it, especially the lintian-override
[23:05] <neversfelde> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/bilbo
[23:35] <seele_> hmm.. someone pinged me but it's out of my buffer
[23:56] <Riddell> seele: we have logs