[06:10] <Knightwise> good morning everyone
[06:15] <Knightwise> how are you doing today ?
[06:48] <MooDoo> hello all
[06:55] <AlanBell> morning MooDoo
[06:55] <AlanBell> and goodnight
[06:55] <MooDoo> good night :)
[07:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oh dear. My son just came into my office before heading off to school.  I can't use it anymore".  Might have to stick them back on 10.04
[07:14] <popey> or just login to unity 2d
[07:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> They are already - PC won't run Unity 3D
[07:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> Too slow.
[07:15] <popey> yet it runs minecraft?
[07:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> It was fine in 10.10
[07:15] <popey> i find that hard to believe
[07:15] <popey> reverting to 10.04 is a baby/bathwater 'solution'
[07:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> The only other option is to buy/upgrade the PC
[07:16] <popey> lol
[07:16] <MooDoo> :)
[07:16] <popey> or figure out why it's slow?
[07:16] <MooDoo> evening popey uds going ok?
[07:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> 11.10 wouldn't run Unity 3D either but Minecraft was fine in 2D
[07:16] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: ban him from minecraft instead ;)
[07:16] <popey> no, no, far easier to format the disk and install something else.
[07:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[07:17] <popey> yeah, went out in san fran with AlanBell and lots of others
[07:17] <popey> went on a cable car which was fun
[07:18] <popey> hanging on to the side as we went up and down hills
[07:18] <MooDoo> nice :)
[07:18] <MooDoo> pleia2 the tour guide? :)
[07:19] <popey> yup
[07:19] <popey> had crab for tea
[07:19] <popey> and then a "one scoop" ice cream
[07:19] <popey> which was immense
[07:19]  * popey gets the photo of AlanBell
[07:19] <MooDoo> one scoop?
[07:19] <AlanBell> oh no
[07:20] <MooDoo> do you know the photo czajkowski has on her laptop when it was connected to the projector?
[07:20] <popey> yes
[07:20] <AlanBell> yes
[07:20] <MooDoo> lol wasn't the bird pooing was it? lol
[07:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hi AlanBell
[07:20] <AlanBell> yes
[07:20] <AlanBell> hi TheOpenSourcerer
[07:20] <MooDoo> LOL
[07:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thought you'd gone to bed.
[07:20] <AlanBell> I am in bed
[07:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ah. TMI
[07:21] <popey> i am in bed too
[07:21] <popey> not the same bed though
[07:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ewwww
[07:21] <MooDoo> ewwwwww
[07:21] <MooDoo> lol
[07:21] <popey> not even tha same room
[07:21] <AlanBell> DIFFERENT BED
[07:21] <popey> or floor
[07:21] <AlanBell> and on that note, night all o/
[07:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> o/
[07:21] <MooDoo> o/ laters
[07:24] <mattt> wow
[07:24] <mattt> what'd i walk into ?
[07:25] <MooDoo> mattt: don't ask :)
[07:30] <DJones> Morning
[07:30] <miraculous> morning
[07:31] <MooDoo> morning you pair :)
[07:33] <miraculous> morning DooMoo!
[07:33] <DJones> Morning MooDoo & miraculous
[07:34] <miraculous> hellooooo DJones \o/
[07:35] <DJones> I had to think then who your nick was, then I remembered seeing the nick change yesterday
[07:36] <miraculous> hehe
[07:37] <miraculous> oh yes, i was amused -- we were playing trivia in #cowgirls -- apparently miraculous is the patron saint of virgins, it bemused me so i decided to nick to it
[07:37]  * MooDoo obviously missed that nick change
[07:38] <miraculous> (though more amusingly, the patron saint of houseviwes is apparently "saint martha" -- that is mainly amusing because i got it wrong but i responded with "martha steward haha")
[07:38] <miraculous> i had no idea how close i was!
[07:39] <MooDoo> ah miraculous now i know
[07:41] <dwatkins> ali1234: are you around?
[07:42] <dwatkins> I'm wondering if hardware acceleration is enabled by default for flash in Ubuntu, and whether turning it off is a viable solution, or if it causes videos to play slowly.
[08:00] <DJones> If this was real, it'd be a great idea http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ew4Y5HLyT6c
[08:00] <MooDoo> DJones: you mean it's not?  but it's got real people in the car and all that? ;)
[08:01] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:01] <DJones> MooDoo: Well, 2 websites have reported it as being being real..... So you never know
[08:01] <miraculous> morning bigcalm
[08:01] <miraculous> bigcalm: oh you can come assemble some furniture for me!
[08:01]  * miraculous needs a man!
[08:01] <MooDoo> DJones: phew *snigger*
[08:01] <bigcalm> Every time I switch on my machine there's a crash report to send. But sending it does nothing to get rid of it
[08:02] <MooDoo> miraculous: how may i help, and if it's for moving, you know i'm too far away
[08:02]  * bigcalm flexes for miraculous
[08:02] <miraculous> MooDoo: mmm i know, that's why i am trying to chat up bigcalm!
[08:02] <bigcalm> Ha
[08:02] <miraculous> i am sure hayley would let me borrow him if i returned him in decent condition!
[08:02] <miraculous> :P
[08:02] <bigcalm> :D
[08:02] <DJones> miraculous: Whoever you get will still have 3 screws, a nut and a couple of those little plastic caps left over
[08:03] <miraculous> DJones: true!
[08:03]  * mattt discreetly does a /whois on miraculous
[08:03] <bigcalm> I quite enjoy putting together Ikea stuff
[08:03] <mattt> oh
[08:03] <bigcalm> miraculous: can it wait until the 14th July? ;)
[08:03] <MooDoo> mattt: she did a nick change yesterday :)
[08:03] <bigcalm> Hayley and I are spending the weekend in Farnham
[08:03] <miraculous> bigcalm: that is AGES away!
[08:03] <miraculous> :P
[08:03] <bigcalm> I know :(
[08:05] <bigcalm> I actually took a day off IRC yesterday. Amazing how much work I did
[08:05] <MooDoo> where are you based miraculous ?
[08:05] <miraculous> farnham!
[08:05] <mattt> doesn't ikea have an assembly service?  :)
[08:06] <miraculous> i dunno!
[08:13] <currymonster> anybody know how to alter "your path"?
[08:13] <miraculous> MooDoo: though i am moving :)
[08:14] <bigcalm> miraculous: where are you moving to?
[08:14] <MooDoo> miraculous: i know that, just down the road right?
[08:16] <currymonster> maybe i should re-phrase that
[08:16] <oimon> miraculous, martha is the patron saint of housewives? lol
[08:17] <miraculous> oimon: yes! apparently so - it amused me greatly!
[08:17] <currymonster> I've just installed tex live, and it is asking me to make a change to 'manpath' and 'infopath', any ideas on how i do this?
[08:17] <miraculous> bigcalm: not super far -- about 15mins out of town (on t'other side) to a small place called beaconhill
[08:18] <oimon> martha was gently rebuked for worrying about housework rather than choosing what is greater
[08:18] <miraculous> tis pretty out there (i'll be a few minutes walk from the devils punch bowl)
[08:18] <bigcalm> :)
[08:18] <oimon> isn't that where gladiator was filmed?
[08:19] <diplo> morning all
[08:19] <oimon> mornin'
[08:19] <MooDoo> morning
[08:19] <diplo> First time using IRC from pidgin, so far not to bad tbh
[08:19] <oimon> i used it for years, but switched to xchat recently
[08:20] <MooDoo> i'm fine with irssi
[08:20] <diplo> heh just reinstalled VPS last night MooDoo, not got that far yet
[08:20] <oimon> called t-mobile to cancel last night. they weren't able to match giffgaff or 3 mobile on price
[08:20] <diplo> And not reinstalled XChat since installing 12.04
[08:21] <MooDoo> diplo: did the upgrade go ok, or did you have to totally rebuild?
[08:21] <diplo> It's fine if you are happy with your phone I guess oimon
[08:21] <oimon> yeah till there is a decent ubuntu phone i will be happy
[08:21] <diplo> I blatted both my PC and my VPS so no upgrades to speak of unfortunatly
[08:21] <oimon> (i mean dockable android phone that turns into ubuntu)
[08:23] <diplo> I do like that, not sure about it still yet
[08:23] <diplo> Get an Atrix off of Ebay oimon?
[08:23] <oimon> aren't they quite old?
[08:23] <diplo> It's what Canonical are developing this against
[08:24] <oimon> they aren't dual core though are they?
[08:24]  * diplo = dumbass :(
[08:24] <diplo> Left my PSU for laptop in Nottingham
[08:25] <diplo> OSAndroid OS, v2.2 (Froyo), upgradable to v2.3ChipsetNvidia Tegra 2 AP20HCPUDual-core 1 GHz Cortex-A9
[08:25] <diplo> Yupsy, sounds like the Desire tbh
[08:25] <diplo> http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_atrix-3709.php
[08:25] <oimon> i can wait until hopefully a vendor will produce a new phone designed for it
[08:28] <oimon> i am tempted by the £5 giffgaff deal now
[08:28] <diplo> I got given a Wildfire ( Buzz ) it's slow but I'll wait till I can afford to buy another phone
[08:29] <oimon> yeah my sister has a waildfire. i told her to get the desire but she thought better
[08:29] <oimon> she was wrong
[08:30] <gordonjcp> oimon: I've got a giffgaff sim you can have
[08:30] <gordonjcp> which has most of a £5 gigabag on it
[08:30] <gordonjcp> totally unusable here, since I only get GPRS coverage
[08:31] <diplo> oimon: Put a new rom on for her ?
[08:31] <oimon> gordonjcp, thanks for the offer, but i've just ordered one - save it for when ur on holiday!
[08:31] <oimon> diplo, the screen is pretty small/lame though imo
[08:31] <diplo> Made a huge difference to mine
[08:31] <oimon> really? ok i'll try then
[08:31] <oimon> CM or HTC rom?
[08:31] <diplo> It is, but using Cyagen has made all the difference, longer battery etc
[08:32] <diplo> More space
[08:32] <oimon> anyone using SIP for calls?
[08:32] <diplo> I can't complain as mine was a freebie
[08:32] <diplo> Nope, keep meaning to try it.
[08:37] <oimon> seems cheap. and i'm on wifi most of the day
[08:37] <oimon> and i don't make calls (much)
[08:38] <diplo> Same here, that's why I keep meaning to look at it. I'm on wifi apart from when I'm in the car really.. be it work/friends/swimming lessons.. Just about everywhere :)
[08:38] <s-fox> Hi
[08:39] <diplo> 'ello
[08:39] <MooDoo> hi s-fox
[08:39] <s-fox> Hello diplo and MooDoo
[08:49] <emorris> hi, I'm half way through an upgrade to 12.04, but have lost keyboard and mouse activity on the machine, and I need to answer a dialog. I am using a KVM switch to switch between that and another PC, so that may have upset it. Is there anything I can do? I do have SSH access. Thanks in advance!
[08:52] <s-fox> Hi emorris , is it a wired mouse / keyboard?
[08:55] <dwatkins> if you have x11vnc, you could remote control the machine's graphical console
[08:56] <emorris> s-fox, yes, usb
[08:56] <bigcalm> emorris: can you plug them in directly, bypassing the KVM switch?
[08:56] <emorris> dwatkins, unfortunately I don't. I did think of that, but can't install it as a package manager is already running
[08:56] <emorris> bigcalm, tried that, same problems
[08:57] <emorris> the light in the mouse and the caps lock light comes on, but no response. I can't event turn caps lock on/off
[08:57] <dwatkins> emorris: have you got the option of attaching a PS2 keyboard, perhaps?
[08:58] <emorris> dwatkins, unfortunately I don't have one with me. If there's no other option, I could borrow one later on though
[09:01] <dwatkins> emorris: if it were my machine, I'd kill the installation on the console via ssh and use apt within a screen session on the command line
[09:06] <diplo> Do we have any nginx users here ?
[09:09] <emorris> dwatkins, annoyingly, I don't have screen installed either. I think I might be able to do it over a serial port though
[09:13] <dwatkins> emorris: you can just kill whatever's on the console then install GNU screen in theory, emorris - depends what's running in X, though
[09:36] <JamesTait> Morning all!
[09:37] <diplo> Morning JamesTait
[09:41] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:42] <MooDoo> morning brobostigon
[09:43] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[09:50] <brobostigon> !xorg
[09:50] <brobostigon> !xserver-xorg-core
[09:50] <brobostigon> !info xserver-xorg-core
[10:04] <davmor2> morning all
[10:04] <bigcalm> Hi davmor2
[10:04] <MooDoo> morning davmor2 how's it going buddy?
[10:05] <diplo> Anyone do me a favour, just nmap <IP_ADDRESS>
[10:05] <diplo> What ports are open ? should be 22/80
[10:06] <MooDoo> diplo: ssh and http
[10:06] <MooDoo> diplo: yes just 22 and 80
[10:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> agreed. It's an Ubuntu machine with 22 & 80 open
[10:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> nginx running on 80
[10:14] <diplo> Thanks MooDoo
[10:14] <diplo> Sorry got called out of the office :)
[10:16] <davmor2> MooDoo: good thanks dude, just missed out on the ea plenary so I'll catch up with that tonight, I got shadowman installed and for a game from 1999 it still rocks
[10:16] <davmor2> I love wine
[10:16] <davmor2> morning bigcalm
[10:17] <oimon> plenary reminds me of my son, who calls piano plano
[10:17] <MooDoo> davmor2: awesome
[10:20] <oimon> is wine preferred over dosbox  for  a '99 game?
[10:20] <davmor2> oimon: it's not a dos game so yes
[10:20] <oimon> :P
[10:21] <oimon> which OS is it for? i thought win98 was the prevalent OS at the time
[10:27] <davmor2> oimon: yeap windows 95+ but works flawlessly on xp
[10:30] <davmor2> oimon: it was out the same kinda time as the very first tombraider but look at this for graphics http://ubuntuone.com/6ouQQBBaQ2yFN2WGiQykhw
[10:31] <oimon> not sure if good or bad...
[10:34] <diplo> bad!
[10:34] <diplo> :P
[10:35] <oimon> tomb raider was quite good graphics
[10:35] <oimon> i remember some scenes took my breath away
[10:35] <diplo> Just bought my kids a Sega pack for the Xbox 360, they love it but I was cringing at the graphics but the gameplay was ok
[10:35] <davmor2> oimon: http://www.tombraiders.net/katie/screenshots/tr1/lara1.shtml that is tombraider in comparison
[10:35] <diplo> I remember playing that
[10:35] <diplo> :P
[10:36] <davmor2> oimon: the only thing that really dates it is the video cut scenes
[10:38] <davmor2> oimon: I'll have a proper play on it tonight and see if I can't take a breathtaking screenshot for you :D
[10:46] <davmor2> oimon: better still you can see for yourself http://www.old-games.com/download/5851/shadow-man :D
[10:46] <oimon> there were some large room scenes in TR that were great.
[10:47] <oimon> not quite as dark as those on that site
[10:47] <oimon> i don't think i've completed many games since TR
[10:47] <oimon> except for TR II
[10:48] <oimon> and rsident evils...all those games that give you heart attacks when they make you jump
[10:51] <oimon> tomb raider 9 is coming out soon :-\
[10:53] <davmor2> is anyone else seeing the buttons on the right after the latest updates?
[10:53] <DJones> Tomb Raider 9 ? I didn't know there was anything after Tomb Raider 1.... Is it going to be like Die Hard 46 with Bruce Willis on a zimmerframe beating the care assistants up up in his retirement home for not giving him the right cosnsitency of gruel
[10:54] <oimon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOVbF8qLCCA gameplay from 1yr ago
[10:54] <diplo> DJones: Some of the later games are great tbh
[10:55] <diplo> Got one on the PS3 that I am sooo stuck on
[10:55] <diplo> :P
[10:55] <diplo> A lot darker  now though, I preferred the funnier side of it
[10:56] <oimon> i liked the egypt stuff
[10:56] <oimon> i only have wii now, so just zelda for me:-\
[10:57] <gordonjcp> I was tempted to buy the PS3 rebuild of RE4
[11:04] <diplo> My newest buy for the Ps3 is Toy Story 3
[11:04] <diplo> Great fun
[11:21] <diplo> Everyone having a good day today?
[11:21] <MooDoo> diplo: people off so busy
[11:21] <s-fox> Pretty good thank you, wondering about what to have for lunch. No idea what to have
[11:21] <diplo> Bar for a dumb 1-2 hour session of working out NGINX this morning and that it wasn't my config most things have gone ok
[11:21] <s-fox> How is your day going diplo  ?
[11:22] <diplo> Not used to setting up web development areas on the actual web, always local so don't worry about firewalls
[11:22] <diplo> Been hard reminding myself IPTables :)
[11:22] <diplo> Thinking skipping lunch myself
[11:23] <diplo> MooDoo: don't you work from home ?
[11:25] <MooDoo> diplo: i wish, but no
[11:25] <diplo> ah bigcalm maybe then
[11:28] <MooDoo> :P)
[11:35] <diplo> Wat mail client do you guys use atm
[11:36] <diplo> I keep finding thunderbird a bit .....
[11:36] <diplo> Used to like it, seem to have fallen out of love now
[11:36] <diplo> Left my bloomin PSU in Nottingham so need to read mail on here
[11:37] <diplo> aha, I just remember I set up roundcube on my pc \o/
[12:13]  * bigcalm looks in
[12:13] <bubuz> how can i use sed to change the text of one file and save to a new file - not just the lines it has changed - all lines of original file?
[12:13] <bigcalm> SUp?
[12:13] <bubuz> be helpful for nagios config files but it just seems to create the new file with only the lines it has changed from the old one and not just substituted in?
[12:14] <gordonjcp> diplo: it's the bloody stupid tabs thing that annoys me
[12:14] <directhex> bubuz, cat | sed > newfile
[12:14] <directhex> ?
[12:14] <diplo> yeah and that.
[12:19] <bubuz> directhex, i want to create a config file that is a copy of the original - just with different host name which is mentioned several times in the original
[12:20] <diplo> bubuz: I just cp the file and then use vi search and replace
[12:20] <bubuz> sed 's/KCLIVEUBWS1/KCLIVEUBWS2/w KCLIVEUBWS2' KCLIVEUBWS2.cfg for example
[12:20] <bubuz> there must be an easier way to do though diplo so can script it... ?
[12:20] <diplo> :g/<searchstring/s//Replace string/g maybe ?
[12:20] <diplo> Been a while since I used it
[12:21] <bubuz> sed 's/KCLIVEUBWS1/KCLIVEUBWS2/w KCLIVEUBWS2' KCLIVEUBWS1.cfg even ***
[12:21] <diplo> I also quite often now just use a IDE sftp onto the nagios box and Ctrl H :)
[12:22] <bubuz> sed 's/KCLIVEUBWS1/KCLIVEUBWS2/w KCLIVEUBWS2.cfg' KCLIVEUBWS1.cfg even *** apologies
[12:23] <diplo> Got a lot of hosts bubuz ?
[12:23] <bubuz> a few but growing
[12:23] <diplo> I basically did a few sites a day over a few weeks
[12:23] <diplo> As it was something we didn't have before I didn't rush it/get peeved with it by doing it slowly
[12:24] <diplo> Learnt more that way as well
[12:24] <bubuz> i want to automate though so when a new server is deployed - its runs a script that sets up monitoring automatically - just need to change hostname in cnfig file
[12:24] <diplo> bah, to organised for me! :P
[12:24] <diplo> I've thought about that, and then thought I cba!
[12:25] <diplo> Takes me a min to copy and change a config and restart service
[12:25] <bubuz> sed 's/KCLIVEUBWS1/KCLIVEUBWS2/w KCLIVEUBWS2.cfg' KCLIVEUBWS1.cfg >> gives me a new file for WS2.cfg but its only got the ammended lines in it, not whole config file
[12:25] <diplo> I only take time to script stuff when it takes me lot's of minutes/hours to do something that after a few hours of scripting will make it that much quicker
[12:26] <bubuz> yeah i was there diplo, but now I can be arsed
[12:26] <bubuz> one more thing i dont need to think about - got enough on
[12:26] <bubuz> lol
[12:26] <diplo> heh, seems I'm on track to change then
[12:26] <diplo> :P
[12:26] <bubuz> :p
[12:26] <bubuz> but i need to get this working first - doh.
[12:26] <bubuz> so simple and yet i cant do it
[12:28] <bubuz> also useful for vhsot files
[12:28] <bubuz> in fact - jsut damn useful! :)
[12:28] <oimon> debian administrator's handbook is released :D
[12:29] <oimon> torrent files are available
[12:29] <bubuz> nice - will buy a copy of that though
[12:29] <bubuz> for some reason i torrent/newsbin everything
[12:30] <bubuz> but i cant get enough actual books when it comes to sys stuff
[12:30] <oimon> if you want the electronic copy, then you can donate any amount you like
[12:31] <oimon> (the torrent files are official ones, i didn't mean that you should pirate stuff)
[12:31] <bubuz> ahhh
[12:31] <bubuz> ofc
[12:31] <bubuz> i will buy the book anyways
[12:36] <bubuz> any ideas to help guys?
[12:38] <oimon> does in-place substitution work?
[12:38] <oimon> copy the file and do sed -i ?
[12:41] <bubuz> nope
[12:41] <bubuz> :/
[12:42] <bubuz> ah yes
[12:42] <bubuz> but it has changed the original
[12:42] <bubuz> but got it! :)
[12:42] <bubuz> ledge
[12:43] <bubuz> cp -p KCLIVEUBWS1.cfg KCLIVEUBWS4.cfg | sed -i 's/KCLIVEUBWS1/KCLIVEUBWS4/w KCLIVEUBWS4.cfg' KCLIVEUBWS4.cfg
[12:46] <bubuz> ah bollocks no it hasn't worked
[12:48] <dwatkins> cp doesn't output anything
[12:59] <oimon> replace | with ;
[13:02] <oimon> facebook is getting an app store argggh
[13:02] <shauno> slightly awkward; got my raspberry pi. don't have a normal usb keyboard anymore :(
[13:02] <oimon> usb bluetooth adapter?
[13:04] <shauno> looks like I'll just have to be patient a day longer and visit the office tomorrow
[13:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> Jeez Unity gets on my tits.
[13:08] <diplo> heh, moi aussi :)
[13:08] <diplo> Going to give Cinnamon a go again tomorrow once my laptop psu turns up
[13:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> I now have a maximised Thunderbird, that has somehow got shunted left a bit so the window control buttons are not visible
[13:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> Can't un maximise
[13:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-(
[13:09] <oimon> press alt key and drag window
[13:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> I keep finding windows are moving randomly around between desktops and appear hanging over the edge of other desktops
[13:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> oimon: It is maximised.
[13:10] <oimon> TheOpenSourcerer, unmaximising with alt click is possible
[13:10] <oimon> just done it with tb
[13:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ah - that worked. Thanks.
[13:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> Switching between workspaces is getting really annoying. It is very slow sometimes and if you have multiple windows of one app open on different workspaces the launcher doesn't know what to do when I click so it does nothing ;-)
[13:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> Then it is hard to find the app window I was looking for,
[13:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> grumble grumble grumble....
[13:16] <oimon> opening the dash seems quite slow after sometime of uptime
[13:16] <oimon> ah, i had a rogue process running
[13:17] <oimon> k13009
[13:17] <oimon> woops, that was me trying to kill picasa since unity doesn't know where it is
[13:20] <head_victim> 3
[13:20] <oimon> 2
[13:24] <MooDoo> :)
[13:28] <ali1234> dwatkins: acceleration is two part, the first part is enabled, the second part is disabled, this is what causes the problem. disabling it does make videos run slowly however that was always the case prior to 11.2. acceleration has never worked properly on any hardware that i know of.
[13:30] <dwatkins> ali1234: which file are the two parts controlled by, is this a case of the graphics driver using acceleration in general in X versus flash acceleration controlled by the mms.cfg?
[13:30] <ali1234> no
[13:30] <ali1234> flash has two independent types of acceleration
[13:30] <ali1234> decoding, and then drawing to the screen
[13:31] <dwatkins> I only see one tick-box in the settings menu
[13:31] <ali1234> yeah that's because you can only control one of them
[13:31] <ali1234> the box in settings disables everything
[13:32] <ali1234> afaik, the decoding part is disabled by default everywhere on linux
[13:32] <ali1234> you can enable it through mms.cfg
[13:32] <ali1234> if you have decoding and drawing both enabled, you don't get reversed colors
[13:32] <ali1234> but the decoding is so buggy that flash crashes constantly
[13:33] <dwatkins> how is the performance if both are disabled?
[13:33] <ali1234> otoh if you disable both decoding and drawing, you also don;t get reversed colours, but then fullscreen mode becomes unworkable due to high cpu requirements
[13:33] <ali1234> just like it always was in 10 and earlier
[13:34] <ali1234> the default is to enable one of them and disable the other one
[13:34] <ali1234> this gives a small increase in performance and the reversed colours
[13:35] <dwatkins> so with the default settings , the bug is observed?
[13:35] <ali1234> yes
[13:35] <ali1234> only on nvidia cards though, because acceleration is not supported with anything else
[13:35] <ali1234> the latest ati driver is supposed t support vdpau as well
[13:35] <dwatkins> I suspect hardware acceleration on linux is technically unsupported by flash
[13:36] <ali1234> well, we know it opens libvdpau
[13:36] <ali1234> the best workaround discovered so far is to s/libvdpau/libxdpau/g on the binary
[13:36] <dwatkins> the suggestion is to 'unistall the VDPAU library'
[13:36] <dwatkins> *uninstall
[13:37] <ali1234> doing that will break all the software that uses it correctly like mplayer, mythtv etc
[13:37] <dwatkins> is there a list of dependencies which I can pass on?
[13:37] <ali1234> dependencies?
[13:37] <dwatkins> software which currently uses libvdpau
[13:38] <ali1234> no
[13:38] <dwatkins> i.e. to point out that this suggestion will break these apps
[13:38] <ali1234> it won't break them
[13:38] <oimon> i just crashed chromium :D
[13:38] <ali1234> it will just make them go to software mode
[13:39] <ali1234> and therefore as slow as flash it
[13:39] <ali1234> well, maybe not that slow
[13:39] <dwatkins> right, so it will have a negative impact on multiple other packages which use hardware acceleration
[13:39] <ali1234> yes
[13:39] <dwatkins> understood
[13:39] <ali1234> at least mplayer, vlc and mythtv can use it
[13:40] <ali1234> but i don't know if they go though the library or what
[13:40] <ali1234> also vaapi can use it
[13:40] <ali1234> which is a general purpose api that supports different hardware
[13:41] <ali1234> vaapi is the api they should have started with
[13:42] <dwatkins> I see
[13:43] <dwatkins> is libvdpau installed for any NVidia card for which the 'official' driver is installed?
[13:48] <ali1234> yes
[13:49] <dwatkins> thanks, I'll pass this on. Unfortunately I don't know if they'll listen to me, but I'll do what I can.
[14:03] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jo Shields] Sleeping with the enemy: my life with Windows Phone - http://apebox.org/wordpress/rants/407/
[14:09] <directhex> le blog!
[14:09] <ali1234> hilarious
[14:24] <oimon> directhex, just tell me when you buy another phone,
[14:24] <directhex> it'll be a while
[14:25] <oimon> well you just murder each one you buy :D
[14:25] <oimon> by murder, i mean murder the whole company
[14:25] <oimon> to be fair, nokia were already on their way
[14:26] <oimon> please don't buy an asus transformer, as i'd quite like to see those survive
[14:27] <directhex> oimon, as i said elsewhere, "this is the longest i've gone between 'happy' and 'i want to murder some engineers' with a smartphone"
[14:28] <directhex> oimon, somehow htc survived me owning a hero
[14:29] <directhex> smartphone wise, i've had in my possession... htc hero, nokia n900, nokia n9, nokia lumia 800, hp pre 3
[14:29] <directhex> i think that's it
[14:32] <directhex> in terms of dump phones, what have i had... hm...
[14:33] <buzz_> my best phone was my nec p3
[14:33] <buzz_> http://www.retrofones.com/images/SV206764.JPG
[14:33] <buzz_> :)
[14:33] <directhex> nec db4000, motorola startac, nokia 8110, nokia 7110, samsung d600, samsung d800, samsung t100, lg viewty
[14:33] <directhex> don't think i've missed any
[14:35] <directhex> the d600 and nokia 7110 were the best of those, imho
[14:35] <oimon> in the unity dash apps lens, why can't i search for sipcalc? i can find it on software centre..why not the install from the internet bit of the dash?
[14:35] <oimon> happy desire owner for 2yrs
[14:36] <dwatkins> haha OpenSuSE 12.1 is codenamed 'asparagus'
[14:37] <directhex> wifey has an htc sensation
[14:37] <stuphi> Does anybody have a suggestion for an easy to use Exif tag editor? My wife has scanned a load of old photo's and it would be nice to tag them.
[14:37] <directhex> dwatkins, not as good as fedora beefy miracle
[14:37]  * dwatkins sniggers
[14:39] <dwatkins> oh my, I have xdm, as opposed to gdm as the greeter, it's like going back in time 20 years
[14:39] <gordonjcp> heh
[14:40] <directhex> dwatkins, liar.
[14:40] <directhex> Initial release	October 1988
[14:40] <directhex> 24 hyears!
[14:40] <dwatkins> wow, now I feel old ;)
[14:41] <MooDoo> dwatkins: I AM OLD :)
[14:42] <dwatkins> MooDoo: were you born before 1977?
[14:42] <MooDoo> dwatkins: yup
[14:43] <diplo> Moi Aussi :)
[14:43] <dwatkins> ah ok, not quite as young as me perhaps, then
[14:43] <MooDoo> dwatkins: i was 40 last month
[14:44] <dwatkins> my brothers are about that age, they used to beat me at risk (they're twins) then battle each other until the wee hours
[14:44] <stuphi> 1972, a fine vintage!
[14:45] <diplo> Hmm, moodoo is old :)
[14:45]  * DJones sticks up for MooDoo not being old
[14:45] <MooDoo> :D
[14:46] <oimon> gmail tab using 250MB, that's just cheeky
[14:50] <dogmatic69> oimon: try fb
[14:50] <oimon> yeah closed that tab
[14:50] <dogmatic69> my gmail is at 120 and fb is 250
[14:50] <oimon> that uses compiz too
[14:51] <dogmatic69> how does it use compiz?
[14:51] <oimon> dunno, but flashing tabs on chromium tax X server and compiz
[14:52] <diplo> Its the javascript heavy sites that seem to cause the issue, never looked into why but really ought to
[14:52] <dogmatic69> same for twitter
[14:53] <oimon> wonder whether to chance firefox again
[14:53] <dogmatic69> chrome pvt memory -> 3,130,572k :)
[14:53] <oimon> i just closed about 40 tabs
[14:54] <dogmatic69> :D
[14:55] <dogmatic69> I only start closing them when I cant see the favicon any more
[14:55] <oimon> same here
[14:56] <oimon> firefox used to cope better
[14:56] <oimon> then it got worse
[14:56] <oimon> and slower
[14:57] <dogmatic69> ye, I used to use ff. it just got so slow it was virtually unusable
[14:57] <oimon> almost going back tho
[14:58] <oimon> i prefer the password management
[14:58] <oimon> chromium i never seem to remember passwords
[14:58] <hamitron> choosing a browser seems a major headache atm :/
[14:59] <dogmatic69> oimon: ff still requires a restart after adding a plugin :/
[14:59] <diplo> It's the plugins that slowed FF for me
[14:59] <diplo> Tried it vanilla for a while, so much better
[14:59] <dogmatic69> even with no plugins it is a dog
[14:59] <diplo> But I love my Firebug
[15:00] <diplo> Hmm, fine for me with none really
[15:00] <dogmatic69> given a few weeks you get used to chrome inspector, I still prefer firebug but chrome one works well
[15:00] <oimon> adblock i think is the only one i use
[15:00] <diplo> yeah i use chrome as well, but I prefer the console of Firebug I think
[15:01] <diplo> I could probably in time find / use Chrome better, just not tried :)
[15:01] <diplo> FF for developing in 90% of the time, and personal pages are open in Chromium
[15:21] <diplo> stuphi: Have you looked at exiftool ?
[15:21] <diplo> Sure I've used it in a script before
[15:22] <diplo> http://exiftool.berndvogelgesang.de/  <-- some examples
[15:23] <diplo> http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php?topic=1754.0  Example of a bash script
[16:02] <s-fox> I have to go, goodbye
[16:07] <Gary> miss you long time
[16:09] <bigcalm> OMG, it's a Gary
[16:14]  * Gary nibbles bigcalm
[16:15] <bigcalm> Oo, that tickles
[16:15] <bigcalm> How's life Gary?
[16:16] <Gary> busy!
[16:17] <Gary> my boss today has lent me mon-wed to a local school to supervise their new IT Tech in his work based working interview!
[16:17] <Gary> I feel like a loan piece of equipment!
[16:18] <miraculous> aww
[16:18] <miraculous> you are but a piece of fine meat to be shared amongst the schools of essexia
[16:19] <Gary> I'm going to be late on purpose, as miraculous has this wonderful idea i'll get me a bit of corp punishment!
[16:20] <bigcalm> HAha
[16:21] <bigcalm> Are you taking your own cane, just in case they don't have one?
[16:21] <bigcalm> Ahem, sorry. Wrong channel for this :)
[16:22] <miraculous> *grin*
[16:23] <bigcalm> !ohmy > bigcalm
[17:29] <hamitron> !kernel
[17:30] <hamitron> !Mainline
[17:48] <Azelphur> anyone know how to work around unity top panel showing through full screen applications?
[17:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> How about $ sudo apt-get purge unity*
[17:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> ;-)
[17:48] <Azelphur> lol
[17:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Seriously considering it.
[17:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> It needs a *lot* of work to be what I would call production ready.
[17:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's more like an Alpha.
[17:51] <Azelphur> gah, yea stuff it I'll just kill unity
[17:51]  * Azelphur sighs \o/
[17:52] <Azelphur> it seems to come back like the undead zombie
[17:57] <brobostigon> what is the command, to count accurances, of a certain string, lets say in a text file?
[18:28] <KrimZon> at what version does ubuntu start to come with gcc 4.5?
[18:28] <jacobw2> evening
[18:29] <KrimZon> hi
[18:29] <KrimZon> or rather just have 4.5 available
[18:30] <jacobw2> why do you need 4.5 specifically?
[18:57] <daubers> 2Evening
[19:03] <Azelphur> Rumor mill is saying RMS just collapsed while doing a talk at the UPC conference, possible heart attack:(
[19:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> I saw the twitpics  - Anyway off to watch some telly.
[19:05] <gordonjcp> Azelphur: and he's such a fit healthy guy, too!
[19:05] <Azelphur> xD
[19:05] <directhex> https://twitter.com/#!/directhex/status/200658712770248705 ?
[19:06] <Azelphur> lol
[19:16] <jacobw2> poor guy
[19:34] <KrimZon> jacobw2, c++11 lambdas
[20:15] <KrimZon> I wanted to make a c#-delegate-like template, where I could automatically add and remove pointers to a type of object and then with a single line call the same method with the same parameters on all contained objects
[20:17] <KrimZon> not quite a delegate but it was to help me out implementing an observer pattern
[21:12] <mattt> HERRO
[21:17] <directhex> O HERRO HANS BRIX!
[21:18] <diplo-> Anyone about who uses byobu ?
[21:19] <diplo-> Just trying to use it, by either byobu or byobu -S name
[21:19] <diplo-> But keeps scrolling the details bar across the session
[21:19] <diplo->  uî¿  12.04  0:*                     1d3h 1.73 2.5GHz 463M37% 2012-05-10 22:1
[21:19] <diplo-> Characters fubared as well
[21:19] <diplo-> Anyone got any ideas ?
[21:39] <popey> diplo-: what font does your terminal use?
[21:40] <diplo-> Good point :)
[21:40] <diplo-> On Win7, courier new
[21:40] <diplo-> Standard putty settings
[21:40] <directhex> which encoding?
[21:41] <directhex> utf-8 or iso8859-1?
[21:41] <diplo> Pretty sure utf8, to secs
[21:41] <diplo> 8859-1, I lied
[21:42] <diplo> never changed before though
[21:42] <diplo> works fine on my natty box with same software, this is on precise server
[21:49] <diplo> Liked your post on Phones btw directhex, still not sure I'd buy a Windows phone
[21:50] <directhex> diplo: i'm not a salesman, i was just sharing my experiences
[21:50] <diplo> Had the 5/6 versions and I was never impressed and I guess I can't get that feeling out that somethings shite
[21:50] <diplo> heh I know, I'm same as you.. I buy stuff if it works not because it's Open etc
[21:51] <directhex> diplo: i'm not sure if there's anything in common with WM under the hood. there's nothing in common above it.
[21:51] <diplo> yeah, waiting for my brother to get one to have a tinker
[21:51] <diplo> But he went and bought himself an S2
[21:51] <directhex> diplo: android isn't Open in any meaningful sense either :p
[21:51] <diplo> I meant in general but yeah
[21:52] <directhex> the way i work with phones is "how long from first boot to wishing to murder the engineers responsible". that counter is a measure of, overall, how well a phone's good points outweigh its inevitable suck
[21:53] <diplo> heh, well me and a friend had smartphones for work for years and yet we both until this year have had Nokia 6230's as main phones
[21:53] <diplo> Because they just worked and nearly always had signal, whereas the smart phones in the same areas didn't
[21:54] <directhex> in terms of smartphones, i've had.. hang on
[21:54] <directhex> nope, no in scrollback, must have been on the laptop
[21:54] <diplo> heh
[21:55] <directhex> htc hero (android), nokia n900 (maemo), nokia n9 (depends who you ask), nokia lumia 800 (wp7), hp pre 3 (webos)
[21:55] <directhex> so most smartphone oses
[21:56] <diplo> Mine were all Windows up till this Android one
[21:56] <diplo> I had the Tytn/Tytn2/Touch/Touch HD and 2 others that I've forgot names of atm
[21:57] <Azelphur> I've had a G1 and a G2 :D
[21:57] <directhex> WM6 was terrible. htc did the best they could to pretend it was usable
[21:57] <Azelphur> hehe
[21:57] <directhex> Azelphur: the g2 is the hero, right?
[21:57] <Azelphur> no
[21:58] <directhex> t-mobile used the "g2" name to rebadge several different htc phones, depending on country
[21:59] <directhex> "g2 touch" is hero ion the uk. "g2" is desire z in the US
[22:00] <Azelphur> desire z is eu branding not us :P
[22:00] <directhex> er, yeah, that's my point
[22:01] <directhex> the htc model codenamed "vision" was sold by t-mobile in the US as "G2", but it's not the same device as codename "hero", sold by t-mobile in the UK as "G2 touch"
[22:01] <directhex> not by a long shot
[22:02] <diplo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/byobu/+bug/995412
[22:02] <directhex> so we still haven't established which bloody phone you have, by virtue of using confusing regionally-varied model names
[22:02] <diplo> think that's my issue
[22:02] <directhex> specific to one carrier
[22:07] <diplo> this was the fix directhex
[22:07] <diplo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/byobu/+bug/952724
[22:07] <diplo> :/
[22:07] <diplo> hash out the logo part


[02:43] <MetrosenRJ> Hey guys
[02:43] <MetrosenRJ> I have a laptop with sis chipset vieo mirage 3672, I installed ubuntu 12, 04 and downloaded the driver sis 672 and installed it, got a resolution of 1280 x 800 but I can not run videos in any player or the VLC, the time that the video is loaded it gives log out. I can not also change the theme options, someone knows a solution?
[02:44] <MetrosenRJ> ??
[02:44] <micahg> MetrosenRJ: try #ubuntu, this is a meeting channel
[02:45] <MetrosenRJ> como é um canal de reunião do ubuntu, eu achei que poderia encontrar ajuda referente aoubuntu aqui. Que tipo de assuntos são tratados nesta reuniao senão problemas do sistema operacional?
[02:45] <MetrosenRJ> as a channel meeting of ubuntu, I thought you might find help for aoubuntu here. What kind of issues are addressed in this meeting only operating system problems?
[02:47] <MetrosenRJ> micahg : if I can not get help in the ubuntu channel where I can get?
[13:59] <balloons> aloha everyone!
[14:00] <balloons> shall we begin?
[14:00] <phillw> yup:)
[14:01] <balloons> #startmeeting QA Community IRC Meeting
[14:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 13 14:01:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:01] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[14:01] <balloons> who's all about?
[14:01] <phillw> o/
[14:01] <gema> o/
[14:02] <balloons> awesome, we have gema today :-)
[14:03] <balloons> alrighty anyway.. let's dive in
[14:03] <balloons> no previous actions again, so we can go straight to topic
[14:03] <balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
[14:03] <balloons> gema, I'll let you give an update of what your team is doing
[14:03] <gema> balloons: hi, thanks
[14:04] <gema> so we are working on moving iso testing into utah, which is ready to start producing results
[14:04] <gema> we are also trying to add coverage to kernel sru testing, in particular to lts backports
[14:04] <gema> and we are working on a dashboard to extract all teh results from jenkins and present them in a better way
[14:05] <gema> I think that is all from us, really, we started to have public team meetings on monday
[14:05] <gema> so if anyone wants to follow more closely what we are doing
[14:05] <gema> they are welcome to watch them either live of after the event
[14:06]  * astraljava apologizes for being late
[14:06] <gema> that's all from me
[14:07]  * astraljava also apologizes for stepping in between gema's update
[14:07] <gema> astraljava: no worries, I was just finishing, welcome :D
[14:07] <astraljava> Danke. :)
[14:07] <balloons> thanks gema.. The first of such videos is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ED30JebT4
[14:07] <balloons> I can assume the rest wil show up on that channel right?
[14:08] <gema> yes, I will be uploading them weekly
[14:08] <gema> in any case, if you guys use g+, just add me and it will appear on your stream
[14:08] <balloons> alright, any questions for gema?
[14:09] <astraljava> gema: Your real name isn't visible with nickserv. How can we find you on G+?
[14:09] <gema><EMAIL_ADDRESS>should do the trick
[14:09] <astraljava> Thanks!
[14:09] <gema> if you find two gema gomezs just pick the one with the ubuntu logo
[14:09] <balloons> hehe
[14:09] <gema> I will add you guys back
[14:10] <astraljava> Excellent, thanks! :)
[14:10] <balloons> Alright, so I'll give a quick update myself then from the community side
[14:13] <balloons> Since alpha 1 released after the meeting last week, I don't think we had a chance to cover it yet :-) So in short, I think the pre-testing focus week was successful, even though we announced late and only had a few days instead of the whole week. Many thanks to those of you who ran the daily in advance. At least 4 bugs were found and fixed, preventing respins which is good news
[14:14] <balloons> jibel's full report can be seen here; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/QuantalAlpha1TestReport. However I would like to point out that we hit 100% mandatory coverage on the ubuntu desktop iso's which is awesome.
[14:15] <balloons> So currently, we have a call for kernel testing the 12.10 kernel on 12.04, and we're using a new build of qatracker to do it
[14:15] <balloons> Any feedback on how the tracker is working would be most welcome.
[14:17] <balloons> As far as what's coming up, the first roundtable with the community team leads will be happening in a couple weeks. I'm excitied about all of us getting together and be able to collaborate and help each other
[14:18] <balloons> Additionally, work will be on-going to migrate the manual testcases over to the qatracker, and I'll be updating and ensuring the tests are in good shape and make sense for what's needed
[14:19] <balloons> Lastly, as you may have seen, read or heard about on this blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-q-friendly-integration
[14:20] <balloons> plans are being made this cycle to bring the community hardware database to life. I am doing some technical work this week with the HEXR team to plan i
[14:20] <balloons> fingers crossed, it's something we may see this cycle, which would be a nice surprise :-0
[14:21] <balloons> any questions for me?
[14:22] <balloons> k, if not then, let's move on
[14:22] <balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
[14:22] <balloons> phillw, would you like to kick us off with lubuntu?
[14:23] <phillw> all is suspiciously quiet with lubuntu. No major issues
[14:24] <balloons> hehe.. fair enough
[14:24] <balloons> alright, astraljava care to go next?
[14:24] <astraljava> I can, for sure.
[14:25] <astraljava> On the Xubuntu side, we updated to Xfce 4.10 for quantal. I haven't heard of any big issues, but quite frankly, I don't think that many people are testing it ATM.
[14:25] <astraljava> I haven't, which is baaad.
[14:25] <astraljava> But I will try to pick up that soonish, it's been a tough spring/early summer.
[14:26] <astraljava> On the Studio side, the change with Xfce caused our images not to build. This has just recently been addressed, so no testing on this has happened either.
[14:26] <astraljava> We're waiting on first images in the next couple of following days.
[14:26] <astraljava> ..
[14:27] <balloons> astraljava, so you'll be all set for alpha 2?
[14:28] <astraljava> We're gonna have to go through a lot for that to happen, but we're having a Xubuntu QA meeting this Sunday, so let me get back to you on that one. :)
[14:28] <astraljava> On Studio, I'm not too sure.
[14:28] <astraljava> Things sadly fell apart for Studio after the release of precise.
[14:28] <astraljava> We've been trying to get things going again, but it's been a slow progress.
[14:28] <astraljava> ..
[14:29] <astraljava> Oh, one more thing.
[14:29] <astraljava> We're having a Xubuntu Team meeting right after this one, so I'll know more in 2 hours.
[14:29] <astraljava> .. (now for realsies)
[14:30] <balloons> astraljava, alright thank you for the update
[14:30] <balloons> anyone from kubuntu about?
[14:33] <balloons> alright, how about edubuntu?
[14:35] <balloons> ok, let's move on then
[14:35] <balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
[14:35] <phillw> o/
[14:35] <balloons> last but not least.. anything else you guys want to chat about?
[14:35] <balloons> phillw, go ahead
[14:36] <phillw> One more (did I say this earlier?): apport now tells me when I try to
[14:36] <phillw> report a bug that is already known, but fails to provide me a link to
[14:36] <phillw> the Laundpad bug report concerned... can we please make it let me click
[14:36] <phillw> through to view that bug, or at least display the bug number for me?
[14:36] <phillw> from one of our testers
[14:37] <balloons> phillw, right now, if you hit details you can see the bug number, I do know that
[14:37] <balloons> it's the "duplicateof" tag
[14:37] <balloons> however, the point is still well taken
[14:37] <balloons> is there an enhancement request opened under apport? if you file one, I'll bring it up directly
[14:37] <balloons> apport is getting changes as usual over the course of the cycle
[14:38] <balloons> I think how it handles dupes could be improved.. and your suggestion is a step towards that
[14:38] <phillw> I'll ask JM to raise a bug.
[14:38] <astraljava> o/
[14:39] <balloons> astraljava, shoot
[14:39] <balloons> phillw, yes and then just pass the number to me if you would. thanks!
[14:40] <astraljava> One particular question about the roundtable meeting, and one general one for handling the meeting requests/invitations.
[14:40] <astraljava> First, what's the correct time for the roundtable meeting?
[14:40] <astraljava> I was told the link has a different time than what's actually in the email.
[14:40]  * balloons goes to look
[14:41] <balloons> I have it at 1700 UC
[14:41] <astraljava> The second has to do with the google calendar links. As my email that I use for ubuntu-related work isn't a google one, is there a way to make it work with the calendar invitations automagically? I do have a google account, but can it make use other emails so that invitations to that other email are identified with my google account as well?
[14:42] <balloons> i said we'd be meeting at 1600 UTC looks like in the email
[14:42] <balloons> google calendar doesn't do daylight savings, and it makes scheduling this stuff an epic fail, since it shows on my personal calendar incorrectly
[14:43] <astraljava> Yeah. :)
[14:43] <balloons> so I believe I adjusted the meeting manually so it popped at the proper local time
[14:43] <balloons> this meeting is notoriously bad for that as well.. :-)
[14:43]  * astraljava recalls it as such, yes... :)
[14:43] <balloons> I never know when it is, until I simply scheduled it at the wrong time in google calendar
[14:43] <balloons> which of course, is actually the proper time in EDT, not ESt
[14:44] <balloons> anyways, I digress
[14:44] <astraljava> So, on UTC, it is...?
[14:44] <balloons> 1600 UTC
[14:44] <astraljava> Ok, thanks.
[14:44] <balloons> pencil that in however you must
[14:44] <balloons> :-)
[14:44] <astraljava> If anyone has info on my second question, it'd be greatly appreciated.
[14:44] <astraljava> Sure. :)
[14:45] <balloons> on the google calendar thing.. umm, you can import events to your google calendar
[14:45] <balloons> or try forwarding the email as is to your google account
[14:46] <astraljava> Ok, I'll try that, thanks.
[14:46] <balloons> alrighty, anything else?
[14:46] <balloons> if not, you know what that means
[14:47]  * gema runs to her next meeting..
[14:47] <balloons> :-)
[14:47] <astraljava> PAH-TEE?!
[14:47]  * balloons feels like we need a closing theme music
[14:47] <balloons> yes, the end.
[14:47] <balloons> thanks for coming everyone!
[14:47] <balloons> #endmeeting
[14:47] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 13 14:47:46 2012 UTC.
[14:47] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-14.01.moin.txt
[14:47] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-14.01.html
[14:48] <gema> thank you for chairing and cheering us up :D
[14:48] <astraljava> Thanks all, Nick for chairing!
[14:48] <phillw> +1
[14:48] <balloons> happy to.. if anyone ever wants to guest chair btw, don't feel like it's not an option :-)
[14:49] <astraljava> I'm available if I'm available, I could need some practice. :)
[14:50] <balloons> astraljava, send me a mail whenever you'd like. we can make it happen
[14:50] <astraljava> Sure thing.
[20:02] <kanliot> hi
[20:02] <jmarsden|work> #startmeeting Lubuntu Weekly Meeting 2012-06-13
[20:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 13 20:02:57 2012 UTC.  The chair is jmarsden|work. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[20:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[20:03] <rafaellaguna> hiya
[20:03] <jmarsden|work> o/
[20:03] <phillw> o/
[20:03] <kanliot> o/
[20:04] <jmarsden|work> Is that all we've got? :)
[20:04] <rafaellaguna> we're in family :D
[20:04] <jmarsden|work> OK.
[20:05] <jmarsden|work> #topic Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
[20:05] <jmarsden|work> We had two actions last time I think...
[20:06] <jmarsden|work> phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
[20:06] <jmarsden|work> phillw: did that happen?
[20:06] <phillw> i have a draft :)
[20:06] <jmarsden|work> OK, that's progress... we'll make it an action again this week...
[20:06] <jmarsden|work> #action phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
[20:06] <meetingology> ACTION: phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
[20:07] <jmarsden|work> The other one was:
[20:07] <jmarsden|work> jmarsden to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview with the main changes that have occured,  and any significant bugs
[20:07] <jmarsden|work> I didn't do that but phillw did, and I then made a minor edit... so that one is done, and Julien will try to kepe us updated as things progress.
[20:08] <jmarsden|work> OK... oh...
[20:08] <jmarsden|work> #action jmarsden to provide pretty wiki pages for meetings of 6/5 and 6/13
[20:08] <meetingology> ACTION: jmarsden to provide pretty wiki pages for meetings of 6/5 and 6/13
[20:08] <jmarsden|work> Since I forgot about that last week!
[20:09] <phillw> easily forgotten
[20:09] <jmarsden|work> So... only real item this week is...
[20:09] <jmarsden|work> #topic rafaellaguna - web (or whatever) team assignment
[20:09] <jmarsden|work> rafaellaguna: you have the floor
[20:09] <rafaellaguna> yep, artwork here
[20:10] <rafaellaguna> this is more a question, than other thing
[20:10] <rafaellaguna> I was speaking with some Canonical design board crew
[20:10] <rafaellaguna> ...also I'm in contact with Rick Spencer, Artwork leader for Ubuntu (and flavours). He did the guidelines
[20:11] <rafaellaguna> The question is... now we're an official flavour (a bit late to ask about this) must we follow the Ubuntu procedures? Xubuntu and Kubuntu did
[20:12] <jmarsden|work> Procedures for what?  and where are they documented?
[20:12] <rafaellaguna> I mean, the project leader assigns a Tem for a task (just like us) but once assigned this team is responsible for the final decision. Is this too SABDFL / Maritocratic?
[20:13] <rafaellaguna> You saw what happened with the web issue. I don't really know who's the decision to make one or other thing
[20:14] <jmarsden|work> He who owns a domain name and pays for bandwidth and server space gets to decide what happens on that server/site.  No procedure in the world can change that, as far as I know.
[20:14] <rafaellaguna> Rick and Iain, from  Canonical, recommended some type of vote selection and decision polithics
[20:14] <rafaellaguna> @jmarsden: right
[20:14] <meetingology> rafaellaguna: Error: "jmarsden:" is not a valid command.
[20:15] <rafaellaguna> jmarsden: right
[20:15] <rafaellaguna> But excuse me for saying this, but I see a bit disorder right now, maybe it's because we're a bit un-headed
[20:15] <jmarsden|work> So currently lubuntu.net is owned by and registered to Mario, and he arranged for bandwidth and server space for it.  So what happens on it is his baby, unless he chooses to grant priviledges on it to others.
[20:16] <rafaellaguna> So, the artwork decision should be responsability only for Artwork Team, after mailing lists voting?
[20:17] <rafaellaguna> And, in this case, for Mario, of course
[20:18] <rafaellaguna> Easier: who's my (and frankbooth) boss?
[20:19] <jmarsden|work> For artwork that ends up within the Lubuntu software project itself, yes, I would say we should let the Artwork team decide, subject to appropriate following of whatever rules Ubuntu as a whole imposes for artwork.
[20:20] <rafaellaguna> ok
[20:20] <jmarsden|work> Obviously all artwork that ends up in the project needs to be packaged and uploaded by someone with upload rights, which at the moment in practice means Julien, but I'd be surprised if he "betoed" artwork choices the artwork team makes.
[20:21] <jmarsden|work> *vetoed
[20:21] <rafaellaguna> no, usually is the "normal" people who wants to make veto :)
[20:21] <jmarsden|work> They can try all they like, it's just noise :)
[20:22] <rafaellaguna> But in the mailing lists, I should listen to them
[20:22] <jmarsden|work> Of course, it's wise to listen to others, we are a community.
[20:22] <rafaellaguna> even with those "bad words" and stupid suggestions
[20:23] <rafaellaguna> As far as we are a community we should listen to them, but you confirmed that the Team rules
[20:23] <jmarsden|work> But you are not under an obligation to accept or follow specific directions from random people on the mailing list.  In the end artwork choices are made by the artwork team, yes.  That makes sense to me.
[20:23] <jmarsden|work> Anyone else have a different viewpoint on this?
[20:24] <rafaellaguna> clear o_O
[20:24] <jmarsden|work> OK, good.
[20:24] <jmarsden|work> #topic Any Other Business
[20:26] <kanliot> no business
[20:26] <rafaellaguna> :D
[20:28] <rafaellaguna> third time, beer!
[20:30] <jmarsden|work> OK... sorry, i was in a conversation here locally...
[20:30] <jmarsden|work> #endmeeting
[20:30] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 13 20:30:14 2012 UTC.
[20:30] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-20.02.moin.txt
[20:30] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-13-20.02.html
[20:30] <jmarsden|work> Thanks everyone!
[20:30] <rafaellaguna> cheers!


[01:05] <wallyworld_> StevenK: is only workaround to downgrade convoy? ImportError: No module named convoy.meta
[01:06] <wgrant> sudo apt-get install convoy/precise
[01:06] <wgrant> should do it
[01:06] <wallyworld_> so pkg has been updated in repos?
[01:06] <wgrant> No, downgraded.
[01:06] <wgrant> That should still downgrade it
[01:07] <wallyworld_> ok,will try thanks
[01:07] <wallyworld_> all good
[01:16] <StevenK> wallyworld_: I'm working on it.
[01:20] <wallyworld_> np. i downgraded to the previous version
[01:35] <StevenK> wgrant: I don't think I need Provides: convoy, right?
[01:35] <wgrant> StevenK: Hopefully only launchpad-developer-dependencies depends on it, indeed.
[01:35] <wgrant> So just C/R
[01:45] <wgrant> sinzui: I see your progressive-enhancement-ftw branch touches the inline-picker.pt, which has a div inside a span, which is illegal. Any chance you could look at fixing that?
[01:46] <wgrant> Not sure what it's doing there, but it's probably simple to eliminate.
[01:46] <wgrant> I hope.
[03:02] <StevenK> Woo
[03:02]  * StevenK rips out five self.assertEquals() and replaces it with MatchesStructure()
[03:05] <wallyworld_> wgrant: is it preferred to use a CTE or subsquery to force a distinct to be evaluated before a sort?
[03:07] <lifeless> wallyworld_: trick question, there's no point evaluating distinct right before a sort
[03:07] <lifeless> wallyworld_: as doing distinct requires sorted data
[03:07] <wgrant> You also have to be careful about doing that with resultsets, as Storm will apply the limit to the outside.
[03:08] <wgrant> You need to play around to see what performs well.
[03:08] <lifeless> wallyworld_: whats the big picture ?
[03:08] <wallyworld_> such an optimisation was done for a query on the accesspolocygrantflat table already though
[03:09] <wallyworld_> lifeless: i am looking at a query which returns a number of rows which when distinct is applied will be far less
[03:09] <wallyworld_> and i need the result to be ordered on one of the columns which distinct will operate with
[03:09] <wgrant> Need to know specifics.
[03:11] <wallyworld_> lifeless: wgrant: https://pastebin.canonical.com/64992/
[03:11] <wallyworld_> i'm experimenting atm with a couple of approaches
[03:12] <wallyworld_> a single query and a bit of python to loop over the result set vs 2 queries
[03:12] <lifeless> https://pastebin.canonical.com/64993/
[03:12] <wallyworld_> the sql pasted would be for the single query approach. the will be many rows with SOME and these need to be reduced down to 1 per grantee
[03:13] <lifeless> your current query conflats distinct columns and calculate results
[03:13] <wallyworld_> yes it does, i hadn't finished it yet, just threw up something quickly cause you asked :-)
[03:14] <lifeless> indeed, so the thing is you asked about forcing an operaiton order; but that sort of optimisation always happens after you can express what you want basically :)
[03:14] <wallyworld_> so, without the distinct, the result set might be largish. and order by is done first right?
[03:14] <lifeless> no
[03:14] <lifeless> order by is done depending on the plan
[03:14] <lifeless> it may use an index
[03:15] <lifeless> it may sort in memory
[03:16] <wallyworld_> ok. there was a bit of sql already refactored and the comment was that we wanted to force the distinct to be done first since the sort by time dominated the query time
[03:16] <lifeless> it may be different on each execution depending on the params
[03:16] <wallyworld_> so a sub query was used
[03:16] <wgrant> You need to test with both Ubuntu and Launchpad.
[03:16] <wgrant> as targets
[03:16] <lifeless> wallyworld_: for this case or another case? Tuning is a vicious cycle of iteration and experimentation
[03:16] <wallyworld_> lifeless: another case
[03:16] <lifeless> in which case, ignore it. Optimise this separately.
[03:17] <wallyworld_> ok. i wasn't sure if we were dealing with a postgres quirk or not
[03:17] <wallyworld_> s/quirk/generalisation
[03:17] <wgrant> postgres quirks are completely situation-dependent.
[03:17] <wgrant> You have to test.
[03:17] <lifeless> I have a couple of thoughts
[03:18] <lifeless> what do you want to show when both an artifact and  non-artifact grant are present ?
[03:18] <lifeless> or do we prevent that ?
[03:18] <wallyworld_> we show ALL
[03:18] <wallyworld_> but i now need to know of there are SOME also
[03:18] <wallyworld_> whereas before we didn't need to know that
[03:20] <wallyworld_> so previously the query i pasted used MIN(COALESCE(artifact, 0)) and a group by
[03:20] <wallyworld_> if i keep that i need a second query
[03:21] <wallyworld_> or i remove the MIN and have one query with a distinct and order by and a bit of python logic
[03:24] <wallyworld_> lifeless: actually, i take it back. i don't need the 'distinct on', just plain old distinct.
[03:25] <wallyworld_> for my use case
[03:26] <wgrant> You also don't care about order there, do you?
[03:27] <wallyworld_> wgrant: it makes the post processing easier but is not strictly necessary. if the distinct is run first, the order by is trivial
[03:27] <lifeless> what about https://pastebin.canonical.com/64994/
[03:27] <wallyworld_> hence my wanting to run distinct first
[03:28] <lifeless> you'll get up to two rows for any grantee,policy pair
[03:28] <lifeless> one with the min null and True
[03:28] <lifeless> one with a min value and False
[03:29] <wallyworld_> it's missing the group by but perhaps
[03:29] <lifeless> why would it need one ?
[03:30] <wgrant> We need to know (person, person, artifact grant?, policy grant?)
[03:30] <wgrant> s/person, person/person, policy/
[03:30] <lifeless> well, this gives you that but not folded into one row
[03:31] <lifeless> if you are paginating, you might need the fold
[03:31] <lifeless> but if you are paginating, you might want to avoid entire-context processing, which group by will need
[03:31] <wgrant> This is post-pagination
[03:31] <wallyworld_> lifeless: the group by is needed because there's a min() in the select
[03:31] <lifeless> wallyworld_: oh duh, of course.
[03:32] <wallyworld_> my original query works. wgrant, could you possibly run https://pastebin.canonical.com/64992/ on dogfood, adjusting ids for ubuntu?
[03:34] <wgrant> 90ms for me + ubuntu-crashes-universe
[03:34] <wgrant> So very slow
[03:35] <lifeless> wgrant: how does mine run ?
[03:35] <wgrant> Buggily
[03:35] <lifeless> wgrant: with an appropriate group by
[03:36] <wallyworld_> wgrant: perhaps https://pastebin.canonical.com/64995/
[03:36] <lifeless> wgrant: does qas have appropriate data ?
[03:36] <wgrant> qas has appropriate data
[03:36] <wgrant> lifeless: Your thing has no chance of running without a rewrite
[03:36] <wgrant> It uses artifact in both an aggregate and a non-aggregate.
[03:37] <lifeless> what are the right constants for you + u-c-u ?
[03:37] <wgrant> wallyworld_: 120ms
[03:37] <wallyworld_> so even worse :-(
[03:37] <wgrant> lifeless: SELECT id FROM accesspolicy WHERE distribution = 1
[03:38] <wgrant> And (21997, 1324721)
[03:38] <wallyworld_> wgrant: maybe a subselect?
[03:38] <wgrant> Well
[03:38] <lifeless> 72ms
[03:39] <lifeless> wgrant: all specific grants atm right ?
[03:39] <wgrant> For those constraints, yes.
[03:39] <wgrant> Ah
[03:39] <lifeless> SELECT DISTINCT grantee, policy, min(artifact), artifact is NULL FROM AccessPolicyGrantFlat
[03:39] <lifeless> WHERE AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee IN (21997, 1324721) AND AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy IN (65,66)
[03:39] <wgrant> The old query is 80ms for the same data on DF, so the 90ms before wasn't too bad.
[03:39] <lifeless> GROUP BY AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy, artifact is NULL
[03:40] <lifeless> ORDER BY AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy;
[03:41] <wallyworld_> so what's the concensus?
[03:42] <wallyworld_> one was run on dogfood, the other qas so can't really compare
[03:43] <wgrant> SELECT AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy, NOT bool_and(artifact IS NOT NULL), bool_or(artifact IS NOT NULL)
[03:43] <wgrant> FROM AccessPolicyGrantFlat WHERE AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee IN (21997, 1324721) AND AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy IN (130423, 130464) GROUP BY AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy
[03:44] <wgrant> SELECT AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy, bool_or(artifact IS NULL), bool_or(artifact IS NOT NULL)
[03:44] <wgrant> FROM AccessPolicyGrantFlat WHERE AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee IN (21997, 1324721) AND AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy IN (130423, 130464) GROUP BY AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy
[03:44] <wgrant> better
[03:44] <wgrant> 78ms on DF
[03:44] <wallyworld_> i haven't seen bool_or before
[03:45] <wgrant> I've never had cause to use it before, either.
[03:45] <wgrant> But I think it fits well here.
[03:45] <wallyworld_> what's it do?
[03:45] <wgrant> It's an aggregate function that computes the boolean OR.
[03:45] <wallyworld_> ah right, nice
[03:45] <wgrant> Which is, I think, exactly what we want here.
[03:46] <wallyworld_> well, before the queru produced column values 'ALL' or 'SOME' not true or false
[03:46] <wgrant> Yeah
[03:46] <wgrant> But that doesn't really make sense any more
[03:46] <wallyworld_> so i could CASE it
[03:46] <wgrant> Since we may need to return both.
[03:46] <wallyworld_> sure
[03:47] <wallyworld_> wgrant: so there's so order by there. that would make post processing easier
[03:47] <wallyworld_> but if it adds too much overhead
[03:48] <wgrant> You can just stick an ORDER BY on the end
[03:48] <wgrant> Doesn't affect performance in this case.
[03:48] <wgrant> Since it has to do the hashagg first.
[03:48] <wallyworld_> rightio
[03:49] <wallyworld_> wgrant: seems to work ok locally too. thanks. updating code now....
[03:50] <wgrant> Great.
[04:01] <wgrant> Hm
[04:02] <wgrant> So it looks like tag searching becomes much faster if I remove all the INTERSECT crap
[04:02] <lifeless> wgrant: the bool_or is redundant there
[04:02] <wgrant> lifeless: How?
[04:03] <lifeless> foo is null is boolean already
[04:03] <lifeless> ditto is not null
[04:03] <wgrant> I use them for the aggregateness
[04:03] <wgrant> Not the boolness
[04:04] <wgrant> Hm. I guess since we paginate before this, we could possibly just get DISTINCT AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy, artifact IS NULL.
[04:04] <wgrant> Since we don't need a single row per person
[04:04] <lifeless> wgrant: huh, please enlarge
[04:04] <lifeless> (on the aggregateness)
[04:05] <wgrant> lifeless: I want the aggregate
[04:05] <wgrant> Directly requesting a non-distinct bool is not an aggregate.
[04:05] <lifeless> oh right, I see
[04:05] <lifeless> handy
[04:05] <wgrant> But a distinct bool is probably sufficient here, since we don't care about pagination in this query
[04:06] <wgrant> EXPLAIN ANALYZE SELECT DISTINCT AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy, artifact IS NULL
[04:06] <wgrant> FROM AccessPolicyGrantFlat WHERE AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee IN (21997, 1324721) AND AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy IN (130423, 130464) ORDER BY AccessPolicyGrantFlat.grantee, AccessPolicyGrantFlat.policy;
[04:06] <wgrant> is pretty much the same speed and less ugly, but will return up to two rows per person
[04:06] <wgrant> And is sort of the obvious way to go.
[04:06] <wgrant> wallyworld_: ^^
[04:06] <lifeless> indeed
[04:06] <lifeless> its roughly, except cleaner, what I originally suggested.
[04:07] <wgrant> And working :)
[04:07] <wgrant> lifeless: Have you reworked the tag searching stuff at all?
[04:07] <lifeless> no
[04:07] <wallyworld_> wgrant: i really want one row per person. the query with bool_or is better
[04:07] <wgrant> k
[04:07] <wgrant> plans are identical
[04:07] <wgrant> So just query prettiness, really
[04:08] <wallyworld_> wgrant: and the order by is done outside this bit by the batching stuff i realised
[04:08] <wgrant> Well, yeah, (person.id, policy.id) is hardly going to be a user-friendly sort. I assumed it simplified your code somehow.
[04:09] <wallyworld_> it would have but now we have one row per person so it doesn't matter
[04:09] <wallyworld_> ah never mind, forget my comment about batching - different query
[04:10] <wgrant> lifeless: https://pastebin.canonical.com/64996/ is what ALL tag search queries look like now
[04:10] <wgrant> lifeless: Replacing the EXISTS ( ... INTERSECT ... ) with EXISTS ( ... ) AND EXISTS ( ... ) is about 30 times faster.
[04:10] <wgrant> I guess it plans better from the tag counts.
[04:11] <wgrant> I guess I'll do it behind a flag and see what happens.
[04:11] <wgrant> Because it, like, makes Ubuntu multi-tag searches not take 10s.
[04:11] <wgrant> (although it was 20s in the old schema)
[04:20] <lifeless> wgrant: I tweaked it for the old schema at one point
[04:20] <lifeless> wgrant: I'm glad you can get it better
[04:26] <lifeless> wgrant: did you end up making an array for tags ?
[04:26] <wgrant> lifeless: Not in this round.
[07:07] <adeuring> good mornin
[07:42] <stub> Grrr... lifeless stole my namespace with lazr.postgresql.
[07:45] <stub> What do we have besides lazr? Need to package a Python library containing PG helpers.
[07:45] <wgrant> lazr.postgresql, maybe? :)
[07:46] <stub> :-P
[07:48] <stub> Lot of renaming to move that db patch buildout application
[07:59] <lifeless> stub: huh, shove your stuff in there.
[07:59] <lifeless> stub: its what its there for
[07:59] <stub> And the obvious name for lazr.postgresql application has now been taken - might be interesting. http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pgmigrate2/1.2.2
[08:00] <lifeless> hah
[08:00] <lifeless> stub: so seriously, put your helpers in lazr.postgresql; theres plenty of namespace within that
[08:00] <lifeless> stub: I just hadn't bothered moving stuff it didn't need.
[08:00] <lifeless> (into it)
[08:00] <stub> lifeless: Merging the buildout driven application and my helper library looks like a packaging mess
[08:00] <lifeless> stub: how so?
[08:01] <lifeless> stub: which helper library ?
[08:01] <stub> One I'm going to assemble so I can get common CLI, helpers like ConnectionString etc. available for our various scripts (backups, database report) without pulling in a Launchpad tree or cargo culting.
[08:02] <stub> Been cargo culting so far and finally got sick of it.
[08:02] <lifeless> stub: great; buildout should be fine for that.
[08:02] <lifeless> stub: its got a very small dep footprint
[08:02] <lifeless> stub: and will play nice with e.g. pip or virtualenv (which btw we probably want to do a mass migration to)
[08:03] <stub> I'm thinking a .deb
[08:03] <lifeless> stub: still no problem, I wanted lazr.postgresql to end up deb'd too with a primarily CLI interface.
[08:04] <stub> Python packages into .deb seem not hard if you are using setup tools. Buildout?
[08:04] <lifeless> stub: its still setuptools
[08:04] <lifeless> stub: don't overthink it :>
[08:04] <lifeless> stub: buildout is for local dev mode; you can totally ignore it as far as delivery of debs is concerned.
[08:04] <stub> I'm used to using buildout assembing a tree
[08:04] <lifeless> separate problems.
[08:04] <lifeless> buildout will give you the dev environment.
[08:04] <lifeless> The deb stuff will be a separate packaging tree anyhow.
[08:05] <stub> Yer, just as long as I can get 'python setup.py install' to install mystuff my limited packaging skills should suffice.
[08:06] <lifeless> which buildout doesn't affect ;)
[08:06] <lifeless> also you might like to use pkgme for deb stuff
[08:07] <lifeless> stub: all that said, the -ops are good at getting buildout trees onto machines via deploymgr, so you might be good to go just as-is, with no packaging effort.
[08:08] <stub> It will end up being used by stuff like lp:losa-db-scripts. Getting helpers on the standard PYTHONPATH seems best to me.
[08:08] <wgrant> While you're here, I think there is an issue with your assignees-must-have-visibility policy.
[08:08] <wgrant> lifeless: ^^
[08:08] <lifeless> stub: sure
[08:08] <lifeless> wgrant: whats issue ?
[08:08] <wgrant> lifeless: I've fixed lots of bugs in my company's private project.
[08:08] <lifeless> stub: we should do a catchup; after wgrant grills me ?
[08:08] <wgrant> lifeless: But I've just left the company :(
[08:08] <stub> And the extracted database report, which is what I actually want to be working on.
[08:09] <stub> lifeless: Sure, or tomorrow if it is late for you.
[08:09] <lifeless> wgrant: clearly none of the bugs are your responsibility any more
[08:09] <wgrant> lifeless: Now all these historical bugs have to be molested, since I no longer have accss.
[08:09] <lifeless> stub: it is late, but today is better.
[08:09] <stub> k
[08:10] <wgrant> lifeless: That argument might apply to an In Progress bug.
[08:10] <lifeless> wgrant: I don't see a conceptual problem: open bugs *should* be updated. Closed bugs the assignee is just vanity, and its in the changelog for the bug.
[08:10] <wgrant> But it probably doesn't apply to a Fix Released one.
[08:10] <lifeless> if you consider assignee a next-actor field its clearly irrelevant for F-R bugs
[08:11] <lifeless> arguably it should not permit being set there anyhow.
[08:11] <wgrant> That's not how the field is defined at present.
[08:11] <wgrant> And it has never been used that way.
[08:11] <lifeless> (not something we could do today, but if we were starting from scratch...)
[08:11] <lifeless> wgrant: actually, it has been used that way.
[08:11] <wgrant> Some Ubuntu process bugs use it that way.
[08:11] <wgrant> use/used
[08:11] <wgrant> But nothing widespread.
[08:12] <lifeless> wgrant: I forget which team, but there is/was one that religiously updates it that way.
[08:16] <lifeless> wgrant: so I admit its a little awkward, but it is, I think, the best of a bunch of bad options.
[08:19] <lifeless> wgrant: allowing data that is inconsistent means we have to have safeguards and doublechecks throughout the system; having assignee imply notification means having it imply visibility (by definition)
[08:19] <lifeless> wgrant: if we take any one piece out, the system gets harder to explain and use.
[08:20] <lifeless> wgrant: I find it implausible that users will be functionally affected if the assignee is cleared when someone leaves; consider the following identical cases:
[08:20] <lifeless>  - the user deletes their LP account
[08:20] <lifeless>  - the user merges their LP account
[08:22] <lifeless> wgrant: another way of thinking about it is that having a single identity for interacting with multiple partitioned visibility areas has an inbuilt tension.
[08:23] <lifeless> wgrant: if you left canonical, for instance, your google docs would be migrated and the account and all its track record nuked.
[08:24] <lifeless> stub: so, skype?
[08:24] <stub> sure
[08:25] <wgrant> lifeless: Assignee doesn't have to imply notification any more than structural subscription does.
[09:26] <StevenK> danhg: O hai!
[09:26] <danhg> hey stevenk
[09:26] <StevenK> danhg: I'd like to get a text review if you have a moment?
[09:26] <danhg> yeah sure
[09:30]  * StevenK stabs gpg for being difficult
[11:16] <jml`> hey
[11:17] <jml> the bug listing page seems to have no favicon
[11:35] <jml> never mind.
[13:04] <deryck> Morning, everyone.
[13:06] <rick_h_> morning
[13:06] <abentley> deryck: morning.
[13:06] <abentley> rick_h_: morning.
[13:06] <StevenK> rick_h_: Did you see I fixed convoy?
[13:06] <rick_h_> StevenK: no, didn't see it. thanks!!!
[13:06] <rick_h_> StevenK: I'll pull/check it out and reply to the -dev email then
[13:07] <StevenK> rick_h_: It's also on asuka at least
[13:07] <rick_h_> StevenK: awesome
[13:07] <StevenK> rick_h_: And we set caching on asuka for +combo
[13:07]  * rick_h_ assumes asuka is a dev server
[13:07] <rick_h_> or something
[13:07] <StevenK> asuka is staging/qastaging's asppserver
[13:07] <rick_h_> cool
[13:07] <StevenK> *appserver
[13:08] <StevenK> rick_h_: We might be in a position to turn on the feature flag on qas and see how much breaks
[13:08] <rick_h_> StevenK: very cool then
[14:13] <awilkins> Is there a statechart of the Launchpad bug statuses ; I have the list of states, but not the transitions. Or is there a particular piece of the source I can look at to work it out?
[15:20] <deryck> awilkins, not sure what you mean by the transitions.
[15:21] <deryck> awilkins, what are you wanting to understand?
[15:21] <awilkins> deryck, Which state leads to which other state : I got an answer in the non-dev channel, apparently you can move to any state if you have the privileges
[15:21] <awilkins> I just want to compare it to Bugzilla, etc
[15:22] <deryck> awilkins, ah, ok.  yeah, there's no set order.
[15:26] <jml> looking at MPs now
[15:55]  * deryck lunches
[16:28] <jml> benji, bac: have replied to MPs. am available for the next hour to chat.
[16:43] <sinzui> rick_h_, jcsackett: do you have time to review https://code.launchpad.net/~sinzui/launchpad/progressive-enhancement-ftw/+merge/103733
[16:44] <rick_h_> sinzui: sure thing
[17:17] <rick_h_> sinzui: ping, ? for you
[17:17] <sinzui> hi rick_h_
[17:17] <rick_h_> sinzui: so you've wrapped the <a> contents with invisible-link css for many cases
[17:18] <rick_h_> in a non-js browser situation then, is there any method for these to show up not hidden?
[17:18] <rick_h_> since this is to replace no-script use cases
[17:18] <sinzui> ah
[17:19] <sinzui> invisible-link exists the Zope testbrowser, not humans
[17:19] <sinzui> the sprite class instead renders an icon instead of text for the human
[17:19] <rick_h_> ok, ic
[17:20] <sinzui> rick_h_, there is a nuance we need to consider
[17:21] <sinzui> linx is non-js and non-graphical, so crucial cases of reporting a bug must work without graphics or script. +filebug is such as case. We really want users to see those extra options. There are not edit icons on them
[17:22] <rick_h_> ah, gotcha
[17:23] <rick_h_> yea, it's the eternal debate of JS flash to hide things vs hiding by default
[17:24] <rick_h_> sinzui: so with my icon fonts I've used this: http://pictos.cc/articles/using-icon-fonts/
[17:24] <rick_h_> which helps make sure if you don't get the font you get the text
[17:24] <rick_h_> I wonder if this could be adapted for a pure css solution
[17:25] <sinzui> ah
[17:25] <sinzui> I tried something like that a few years ago
[17:25] <rick_h_> yea, I think part of this works because it's a font vs a sprite, but haven't tried it out
[17:25] <sinzui> it was rejected as a programmer hack. I think we could get it accepted on the grounds that we care about accessibility.
[17:26] <rick_h_> yea, it works pretty well ime in my side project and if we can praise it for accessability and lack of JS driven flashing UI it's a win
[17:27] <sinzui> Anything that properly sites in the uncode ranges and that we can add beauty too via a web font would be grand
[17:27] <sinzui> s/sites/sits
[17:28] <rick_h_> yea, unfortunately I think most icon fonts aren't sticking to unicode land because of unidoce issues people end up with
[17:34] <abentley> rick_h_: Could you please review https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/launchpad/celery-everywhere-9/+merge/103723 ?
[17:36] <rick_h_> abentley: will do
[17:38] <rick_h_> sinzui: ok, commented, also wanted to bring up alt vs title text for these links since again we're really targeting accessability here
[17:39] <sinzui> thank you.
[17:40] <rick_h_> thank you, look forward to noscript dying
[17:49] <sinzui> rick_h_, I already know that we cannot change the broken span in a div markup easilly
[17:49] <sinzui> We tried this 18 months ago :(
[17:49] <rick_h_> sinzui: ok, it looked like it might be a much bigger task, but wanted to note it
[17:49] <sinzui> It is quite complicated. I can be done, but that is not the issue that needs to be solved in this branch
[17:50] <abentley> gary_poster: ISTM that Storm does not maintain a mapping of table names to classes.  Does that seem correct to you?
[17:50] <rick_h_> sinzui: understand
[17:50] <sinzui> rick_h_. we stopped adding inline editing to the project page because th divs did bad things in element that had to be inline
[17:51] <gary_poster> abentley, it's been a long time since I looked at that code, but I believe you are correct.
[17:51] <rick_h_> sinzui: can the reverse happen though, can the spans be turned to divs with inline or inline-block styles?
[17:52] <sinzui> No.
[17:52] <rick_h_> sinzui: ok
[17:52] <sinzui> Lp and HTML in general wants form elements to work in line
[17:52] <abentley> gary_poster: I had always assumed there would be one.  I also thought having two classes with the same table would be impossible.  But if Storm can't tell that there are two classes with the same table, it shouldn't care, either.
[17:52] <gary_poster> heh
[17:52] <sinzui> rick_h_, consider that div can never go in a paragraph
[17:53] <rick_h_> sinzui: ah right ok.
[17:53] <sinzui> rick_h_, you are right about the title, I see I was not consistent
[17:53] <sinzui> I will work on this now
[17:54] <rick_h_> sinzui: np, I'll be around laterish today and can ok any time. Thanks for looking into it.
[17:54] <gary_poster> abentley, it must reliably be able to determine what class to use to instantiate records from the db; looking for a sec; suspect that this is configuration
[17:55] <abentley> gary_poster: There's a complicated derivation dance used in most Jobs classes; but if BranchScanJob, BranchUpgradeJob etc all were ORM objects with the same table, life would be simpler.
[17:55] <abentley> gary_poster: I think that it relies on the caller of Store.fine to specify what class to use, and class specifies table.
[17:56] <abentley> s/Store.fine/Store.find
[17:57] <gary_poster> abentley, yes, I think you are right!  A very interesting idea
[17:58] <gary_poster> Crazy idea abentley: you could maybe even pass a (single) factory, depending on how loose the contract is for the first argument to store.find
[17:59] <gary_poster> if it just has to be a callable with a __storm_table__ ...
[18:00] <gary_poster> you could create different objects depending on one or more columns
[18:00] <gary_poster> May or may not be a horrible hack :-)
[18:01] <gary_poster> __new__ might also lead down interesting, horrible paths
[18:02] <gary_poster> if the contract is tighter than "callable + __storm_table__"
[18:02] <abentley> gary_poster: So, Store.find does appear to defer to the caller: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/947827/
[18:03] <gary_poster> cool
[18:05] <abentley> gary_poster: Unfortunately, my current work kinda assumed that I could serialize an IRunnableJob by writing out its table and id.
[18:05] <gary_poster> ah
[18:31] <deryck> jcsackett or rick_h_ -- I've got a branch killing doctests for review.
[18:31] <rick_h_> deryck: cool, almost done with abentley's stuff and I can get right onto that
[18:32] <deryck> rick_h_, cool, thanks!  It's at: https://code.launchpad.net/~deryck/launchpad/refactor-editemail-doctest-363916/+merge/103718
[18:35] <rick_h_> deryck: ok, loading up now. Man, where's that achievement system from jono. I want a reviews badge for today lol
[18:35] <deryck> heh
[18:55] <rick_h_> deryck: #2 is just for my own curiosity as searching for doc gets me a ton of stuff
[18:57] <deryck> rick_h_, so #1 -- I can underbar the create methods. I only did the assert one differently, so it wouldn't be mistaken for any self.assertXXX methods provided by the test case classes....
[18:58] <deryck> rick_h_, #2 is due to the error message being an instance in one case, and unicode in all the others.
[18:58] <deryck> rick_h_, #2 cont. I think some of the form magic calls doc on the widget to get the error string.
[18:58]  * deryck is re-reading #3 now :)
[18:59] <rick_h_> deryck: ok yea wasn't sure what .doc came from that seemed to imply it converted the input to unicode
[18:59] <rick_h_> deryck: I've been confused on #1 before as usually personally I'd _private things that weren't tests but were used but then again things like setUp/tearDown and all that aren't as well so I guess it goes either way
[19:00] <rick_h_> deryck: #3 just says that each unit test should start with a comment about what's being tested according to the testing style guidelines
[19:00] <lifeless> tearDown shouldn't be used :)
[19:00] <deryck> rick_h_, yeah, that's why I don't normally underbar something unless I need to signal it is somehow different.
[19:00] <rick_h_> and wasn't in this case for the record, just comparing the names of non test_methods
[19:00] <deryck> rick_h_, but if you want me to change either for consistency, I don't mind.
[19:01] <deryck> hi lifeless  :)
[19:01] <rick_h_> right, this only struct me because it did both, I see your point though now deryck. Up to you there
[19:01] <lifeless> deryck: o/
[19:02] <deryck> rick_h_, so can you point me at a line in that wiki your referring to. We're inconsistent about comments in unit tests, and I followed the example of the other tests in that file.
[19:03] <rick_h_> deryck: under "Python test cases" #3
[19:03] <deryck> rick_h_, ah, see it now thanks.  I can update the other tests in this file then too.
[19:04] <deryck> rick_h_, and you know you're a new reviewer. ;)  That's a lot of wiki doc to read thoroughly. :)
[19:04] <lifeless> I think that line is too proscriptive; 'test intent should be understandable' is a much better rule
[19:04] <rick_h_> deryck: so jcsackett says I'm going to be set free for tues
[19:04] <rick_h_> lifeless: come on, I'm a fan of the comment string for a nice readable line in the error reporting :P
[19:04] <rick_h_> don't rain on my parade
[19:05] <lifeless> rick_h_: in the runner output? All my runners disable that as an antifeature
[19:05] <rick_h_> lifeless: yea
[19:05] <deryck> I feel like we should have something akin to "You might be a redneck" jokes sometimes....
[19:05] <deryck> "You might have a crazy test system if...."
[19:05] <rick_h_> hah
[19:06] <deryck> it requires multiple huge wiki docs to explain how to write good tests.
[19:06] <deryck> :)
[19:06] <rick_h_> well test names can be a bit shorter if you have a nice sentence on wtf just blew up in that first comment line. I like that as someone that blows up other peoples testes a lot lol
[19:06] <deryck> I really don't mind adding a comment.  Just kidding around.
[19:08] <rick_h_> I'm just sticking up for my anti features :)
[19:28] <sinzui> rick_h_,  I replied and pushed a change to verify that widget-position-ext is not needed: https://code.launchpad.net/~sinzui/launchpad/progressive-enhancement-ftw/+merge/103733
[19:29] <rick_h_> sinzui: saw that, so the two items are the alt tags and the hidden by default text of the links right?
[19:29] <rick_h_> did you want to worry about the hidden text bits as a seperate branch/item?
[19:29] <rick_h_> and I can approve it as is with the understanding the alt text can get added in?
[19:30] <sinzui> rick_h_, I updated my reply. alt tags never EVER worked on anchors
[19:32] <sinzui> rick_h_, title is universal and the only true mechanism to use in the 2000's
[19:34] <rick_h_> sinzui: ah ok, sorry I was looking at examples at the start wich are tests anyway
[19:35] <sinzui> :) That is my trick
[19:35] <rick_h_> sinzui: thanks for the updated comment. Marked ok
[19:35] <sinzui> fab.
[19:36]  * sinzui reports bug to remove widget-position-ext source-dep
[20:10] <sinzui> rick_h_, the http://pictos.cc/font/ is really great. I want to build something with it
[20:28] <abentley> jcsackett: Could you please review https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/launchpad/efficient-universal-source/+merge/103768 ?
[20:28] <jcsackett> abentley: it's in my queue. might be a bit, it's not a short queue. :-)
[20:29] <abentley> jcsackett: That's a second one.
[20:29] <jcsackett> abentley: got it, just letting you know i'll get to it asap.
[20:29] <abentley> jcsackett: Cool.
[20:33] <rick_h_> sinzui: so I changed over to an open source version: http://fortawesome.github.com/Font-Awesome/
[20:34] <rick_h_> sinzui: I paid for pictos though
[20:36] <sinzui> That is nice too
[20:37] <rick_h_> yea, only reason I switched was license, but yea it's nice to use the font idea like that
[21:24] <jcsackett> abentley: r=me on that branch, in case you missed the email.
[22:02] <abentley> jcsackett: thanks.
[23:15] <StevenK> -            'text': '** Visibility changed to: Public',
[23:15] <StevenK> +            'text': '** Information type changed from User Data to Public.',


[01:30] <dignan> Hey, I have a JNI package that is not compiling correctly anymore under Karmic, what's the best way to get the C files to find the jni.h file?
[01:33] <dignan> I should add that the issue is when I'm trying to build it in pbuilder