[03:35] <fcuevas> hepl
[03:35] <fcuevas> help
[03:36] <fcuevas> xfce4-volumed doesn't start on startup
[03:40] <fcuevas> heko
[03:40] <fcuevas> help
[13:35] <rainy_day> hello
[13:36] <cfhowlett> rainy_day, greetings
[13:37] <rainy_day> :) I.. had a question about application menu snafus on 13.10... not quite sure if this is the appropriate place to ask. :)
[13:40] <cfhowlett> rainy_day, it is.  ask.
[13:41] <rainy_day> alright so I am trying to use alacarte to modify the menu items. However when launched normally alacarte seems to be unable to add new menus, or add new items to menus (other than "other")
[13:41] <rainy_day> launching it from gksudo makes it look like it does changes but those changes never work. I was wondering if this is a known problem with workaround, or if there was a way to edit the menu file in another way.
[13:43] <rainy_day> (as context I upgraded from 13.04 to 13.10, and I do seem to be running into these gtk-critical errors on alacarte and gedit and several other programs... so entirely possible it is linked to it... but kind of lost as to how to proceed in debugging at that point)
[13:46] <zequence> rainy_day: running it as sudo means running it as root, so those changes would only be seen if you logged in as root, graphically
[13:46] <zequence> I haven't messed a lot with that, but there may be some problems between alacarte and XFCE. The changes you make end up in the user home folder
[13:47] <zequence> There may be different formats between alacarte and what XFCE/ubuntustudio-menu is looking for
[13:48] <rainy_day> well it is adding the file just not to the right place as user... are they supposed to end up in my home configuration or supposed to be top level?
[13:49] <rainy_day> I have been trying to hunt down the correct file... but nothing looks like my current menu (and strangely nothing seems to be modified with my upgrade or since, even through I did make some edit of existing menu items - which worked- and removed a few items -which also worked-)
[13:51] <zequence> rainy_day: Those are user settings, so they should end up in the user home folder
[13:51] <zequence> The files end up in the right place, but there may be a problem between formats
[13:51] <zequence> using sudo, as said, is not going to help
[13:52] <rainy_day> I can modify them manually and alright.
[13:52] <rainy_day> ok let me see if I can hunt the file down on home directory. thank you very much cfhowlett and zequence
[13:54] <cfhowlett> rainy_day, best of luck to you.
[13:55] <rainy_day> :)
[16:26] <uno> hi everybody, how to change my user account picture on my ubuntu studio
[16:26] <uno> ?
[16:46] <florianf> good evening. i just upgraded ubuntu studio 13.04 to 13.10 and am still stuck with the 3.8 lowlatency kernel. is this normal behaviour?
[16:47] <wilee-nilee> florianf, sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[16:47] <florianf> hmm, thought the GUI upgrade did all that for me..
[16:47] <florianf> thanks, ill try it
[16:48] <wilee-nilee> worth a try is all
[16:48] <florianf> just installed the 3.11 lowlatency kernel manually
[16:48] <florianf> hope i didnt break anything
[16:49] <florianf> well, gonna test the 3.11 now.. hope i still boot
[16:49] <florianf> thanks
[16:50] <wilee-nilee> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel just info good luck
[20:25] <aaa__> Hey does anyone have 5 - 10 mins to help me out with something?
[20:27] <aaa__> anyone?
[20:28] <aaa__> Heyhey
[20:28] <Guest19900> i have no sound on ubuntu studio. use intel 82801eb/er (ich5/ich5r) ac'97 audio controller... any ideas?
[20:29] <Guest19900> fresh install
[20:29] <aaa__> Desktop or laptop?
[20:29] <Guest19900> desktop
[20:29] <aaa__> Go into bios and see if you can enable ac'97
[20:29] <aaa__> Or onboard sound
[20:30] <Guest19900> doh... gotta reboot to try that... *think* it's enabled, sound was looping in ubuntu gnome
[20:30] <Guest19900> you gonna be here a minute?
[20:31] <Guest19900> before i go, you good with grub?
[20:31] <aaa__> Sorry i have to go...my ubuntu studio got f ucked up when i installed steam -.-
[20:31] <aaa__> I might be ..why?
[20:31] <aaa__> It actually depends on your problem:P
[20:31] <Guest19900> when puter boots, i get no grub menu. think it's in my grub.cfg
[20:32] <Guest19900> hidden_timeout=0
[20:32] <Guest19900> hidden_timeout_quiet=true
[20:33] <Unit193> Yep, if you want you can comment out hidden_timeout=0
[20:33] <Guest19900> changed to 10 and false and reran update-grub didn't change anything...
[20:33] <aaa__> If you want you grub menu to appear which you dont really need unless you have dual boot..then push f8 5,6 times before you get to ubuntu logo
[20:34] <aaa__> but gotta go solve my f**** issue lol..
[20:34] <Unit193> Erm, edit /etc/default/grub, the other gets overwritten as it clearly states in the header of the file.
[20:34] <Guest19900> thnx, good luck
[20:34] <Guest19900> that's the one i changed...
[20:35] <Unit193> < Unit193> Yep, if you want you can comment out hidden_timeout=0
[20:35] <Unit193> Heading out now.
[20:35] <Unit193> !grub
[20:45] <OvenWerks> Unit193: It seems to beter to use a new file in /etc/default/grub.d/ on ubuntu. That seems to cause the least problems with updates..
[20:50] <OvenWerks> Nothing on the GRUB site really works right on ubuntu :P
[22:08] <duduche92> I have duplicate sources.list
[22:09] <duduche92> apt-get update don(t work
[22:16] <OvenWerks> duduche92: I assume you are running on Live ISO
[22:16] <OvenWerks> That should go away after install
[22:17] <gdos> hey using alacarte, how come i can't hide certain menu items? even tried using gksudo alacarte
[22:22] <duduche92> no but  i am  just reinstalling.
[22:29] <OvenWerks> duduche92: If the system can see the ISO there are two sources.lists
[22:31] <OvenWerks> gdos: Most of the stock menu config files are broken. Which version os are you using?\
[22:32] <gdos> OvenWorks: what do you mean most of the stock menu config files are broken? is this a known issue?
[22:32] <OvenWerks> Sort of known I have been bugging as many as I can.
[22:32] <gdos> i'm using studio version 13.10
[22:33] <OvenWerks> The line that merges in other menu files is at the top of the config rather than the bottom.
[22:33] <gdos> OvenWerks: any work arounds?
[22:33] <OvenWerks> Hmm, that should be ok then.
[22:33] <OvenWerks> We use the merge function quite heavy for our own menu.
[22:34] <OvenWerks> (which is how I found it was broken)
[22:34] <gdos> but is there anyway that i can hide certain menu items?
[22:35] <OvenWerks> should be able to. Alacart makes a new *.desktop file with an extra line that hides it.
[22:36] <OvenWerks> I haven't played with alacarte since about 12.10 because I to many problems with it.
[22:36] <gdos> alacarte won't let me hide certain ubuntustudio specific items even tried prefixing the command with gksudo
[22:36] <gdos> OvenWerks: know of another menu editor?
[22:36] <OvenWerks> it shouldn't have to be sudo
[22:37] <OvenWerks> There is another one in the works, but it is not out yet.
[22:37] <OvenWerks> libremenu or something like that.
[22:37] <OvenWerks> The changes are stored in the user's directory
[22:38] <gdos> Ok.
[22:38] <OvenWerks> ~/.config/menu/ and ~/.local/applications/
[22:39] <OvenWerks> xfce may merge the files in the wrong order though if it is studio custom menu stuff you are trying to hide.
[22:40] <gdos> can i manually hide these items through a text editor? say, for example: the photography menu since the file are already duplicated elsewhere?
[22:41] <OvenWerks> I don't know for sure.
[22:42] <gdos> since its an xml file, can't remember what the string is to comment out a line.
[22:42] <OvenWerks> Commenting out a line may not work which file are you editing?
[22:44] <OvenWerks> If you sudo nano /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/studio.menu
[22:45] <OvenWerks> you can add the line: <Directory>ubuntustudio-noshow.directory</Directory>
[22:45] <OvenWerks> just below <Directory>ubuntustudio-photography.directory</Directory>
[22:46] <OvenWerks> The second line takes presidence over the first.
[22:47] <gdos> ok i will try that OvenWerks: thanks.
[22:47] <OvenWerks> Be warned, If we update that package your change may be over written :)
[22:48] <gdos> at least i'll know how to fix it. :)
[22:48] <OvenWerks> Also that will be system wide. That is all users will have the change.
[22:49] <OvenWerks> gdos: Thank you for pointing that out. I will be testing that and report a bug against xfce if there is a problem there.
[22:50] <gdos> OK. No problem. :)
[22:50] <OvenWerks> Not that many people thorally test that stuff
[22:50] <gdos> i guess i have OCD when it comes to my desktop :)
[22:51] <OvenWerks> The idea of settings is to be able to customize.
[23:05] <gdos> yep.
[23:08] <OvenWerks> Hmm, it works for me here (alacarte)
[23:09] <OvenWerks> I can turn photgraphy off and on with alacate no problem.
[23:12] <OvenWerks> Oh well, no bug anyway.


[10:57] <gen> i'm looking for a web cms to go, ready to use open souce. myspace type. can someone help me?


[05:37] <bkerensa> pleia2: still getting no luck on info for what's new from any of the dev teams
[15:26] <pleia2> bkerensa: yeah, I forgot that ubuntu wasn't doing a beta1 either, so no release notes :\
[17:01] <crazyskeggy> I'm having trouble editing https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxSecureRemix - I think it won't let me edit because it's immutable.
[17:04] <pleia2> crazyskeggy: are you logged in? (your logged in name should appear somewhere in the top of the page)
[17:04] <pleia2> if so, refresh a couple times, sometimes caching is a bit aggressive
[17:04] <crazyskeggy> pleia2: no, but there is a "logout" link in the top-left, under the ubuntu logo
[17:05] <pleia2> or try another browser
[17:05] <pleia2> it needs to show your nick somewhere for the login to have fully been accepted
[17:07] <crazyskeggy> pleia2: oh, ok - I'll try clearing cache first, then try firefox or IE (I'm using chrome)
[17:07] <pleia2> chrome caching + help.u.c caching can be a troublesome mix at times
[17:12] <crazyskeggy> pleia2: one odd thing i noticed: logging in on chrome it only said the site needed email & name - in Firefox it wanted my username too
[17:13] <pleia2> ah, interesting
[17:13] <crazyskeggy> pleia2: also, I don't remember setting any username during the signup
[17:13] <pleia2> crazyskeggy: can you submit a bug with canonical? they run all this stuff, email to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:13] <crazyskeggy> anyway, it's working now!
[17:13] <crazyskeggy> sure!
[17:14] <pleia2> username is what shows up after the ~ in the launchpad url
[17:14] <pleia2> like mine is launchpad.net/~lyz
[17:14] <pleia2> so "lyz"
[17:14] <crazyskeggy> pleia2: i had only been on launchpad after i made my account - maybe it was the joining of the docs group that did it
[17:15] <pleia2> ah, who knows :)
[17:44] <godbyk> Hey, shaunm. Are you around?
[17:45] <bkerensa> pleia2: so I have opened a bug about What's New and subscribed you mhall119 for tracking
[17:45] <bkerensa> still no response on IRC from Desktop or Kernel Team
[17:47] <shaunm> godbyk: what's up?
[17:47] <godbyk> shaunm: Can I set platform=unity when the yelp script is exporting Mallard to HTML?
[17:48] <godbyk> Or does that use the same internal check from libyelp?
[17:48] <pleia2> bkerensa: are you just grabbing them on IRC? wondering if a mail to a list or showing up at their meeting might be better
[17:49] <bkerensa> I will mail their lists too
[17:49] <shaunm> godbyk: are you using yelp-build?
[17:50] <godbyk> shaunm: Yeah.
[17:51] <shaunm> are you already passing an extension stylesheet with -x?'
[17:52] <godbyk> shaunm: Yeah. We have an ubuntu.xsl script.
[17:52] <shaunm> right, thought so. add this to it: <xsl:param name="mal.if.platform" select="'platform:unity'"/>
[17:52] <shaunm> (note the quotes inside the quotes in select)
[17:53] <godbyk> shaunm: Okay, cool. I'll give that a shot.  Thanks!
[18:13] <mhall119> thanks bkerensa


[03:20] <adu> hi, where is the ubuntu-vagrant room?
[03:26] <adu> is there anyone looking at this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-images/+bug/1569237
[12:28] <jtaylor> did perf break for anyone on 4.8 kernels? whatever I profile it always reports all cpu usage in the kernel scheduler


[02:42] <kwwii> night all
[01:26] <gouki> Hi. I'm looking for someone who is interested in helping me out (simple webdesign) with a statistics project for #ubuntu
[01:27] <gouki> ubuntustats.homelinux.org (in case someone wants to check it out)
[05:54] <mhb> hello art workers
[05:56] <mhb> I wonder ... how's the Feisty artwork going to evolve after those small trouble with Edgy artwork cycle?
[06:01] <bersace> mhb: artwork comunity team will continue their work
[06:01] <bersace> on their respective themes
[06:01] <bersace> however, default theme is still handle behind the curtain
[06:02] <mhb> bersace: hmm ... I find it a wrong decision, but okay
[06:02] <mhb> bersace: does "behind the curtain" mean "not show previews to the public?"
[06:02] <bersace> mhb: i don't know
[06:02] <bersace> there weren't even any spec for artwork
[06:03] <bersace> macslow has nice idea about accelerated gdm login
[06:03] <bersace> with face browser
[06:03] <bersace> but nothing official
[06:06] <mhb> bersace: I wish the way to go would be to open things up, not the other way around
[06:06] <bersace> mhb: i wish so
[06:07] <bersace> but obviously, that's not what sabdfl want
[06:07] <bersace> i don't even know if frank schoep is still our artist in chief
[06:07] <mhb> bersace: you should ask like me, then :o)
[06:08] <bersace> :)
[06:08] <mhb> maybe the right questions on the mailing list would stir a discussion
[06:08] <bersace> ack
[06:09] <mhb> because I know how much publicity the artwork had during the Edgy process
[06:10] <mhb> and I don't understand why nobody discusses it or why( at least) someone in charge won't publish previews, etc
[06:18] <mhb> but I'm not an artist who is able to help. If you are, you should ask those questions :o)
[06:18] <bersace> i'm not too
[06:19] <bersace> i was responsable of wiki reorganisation
[08:31] <troy_s> greets bersace
[08:32] <troy_s> frank scheop is not aic anymore.
[08:34] <mhb> who is then,
[08:34] <bersace> troy_s: hi
[08:34] <mhb> hi Troy
[08:35] <troy_s> Aside from growing pains, there were few problems along the Edgy route that weren't a direct result of sabdfl uninvolvement.
[08:36] <mhb> Well, I am not a direct contributor to artwork but in my opinion the artwork team is somehow dissolving.
[08:37] <troy_s> Not so much dissolving.
[08:37] <troy_s> but realistically, we can do nothing while sabdfl decides on the Feisty direction.
[08:37] <troy_s> Aside from continue to develop community based works.
[08:38] <mhb> hmm
[08:38] <mhb> from my experience I know that when a team stops being concentrated, it dissolves very quickly.
[08:39] <mhb> you need a lot of organisation to put it back on track.
[08:39] <troy_s> I wouldn't argue with you on that one.
[08:39] <troy_s> We went from about 20 inactive artwork team members to almost 200 over the course of edgy
[08:39] <troy_s> and had a good deal of interest / press / etc.
[08:40] <mhb> troy_s: yes, I agree (I was monitoring the Edgy process).
[08:41] <troy_s> c'est la vie.
[08:42] <mhb> troy_s: but specifications should have been made on the beginning of the Feisty process, which sadly didn't happen.
[08:42] <troy_s> that's because there was no interest on sabs part to do so
[08:42] <troy_s> we could very well have grown from the last cycle and worked on them
[08:42] <troy_s> but it became clear towards the end that
[08:43] <troy_s> sabdfl had different ideas.
[08:43] <mhb> so you/the team will have a very short time to finalize artwork.
[08:43] <troy_s> so no one bothered to waste the time.
[08:43] <troy_s> there will be no finalizing.
[08:43] <troy_s> it will just appear.
[08:43] <troy_s> and probably suffer from the same issues that previous incarnations have suffered from.
[08:46] <bersace> i may write the wide theme switcher tool this summer as a SoC
[08:47] <bersace> this will allow to smoothly switch from default theme to community theme
[08:47] <bersace> if there is nice alternative
[08:47] <bersace> for feisty+1, maybe
[08:47] <troy_s> well the _really_ unfortunate thing
[08:47] <troy_s> is that daniel automated all of the artwork aspects
[08:47] <troy_s> (based on franks' effort as well)
[08:48] <troy_s> the theme switcher is darn close to being internally useful
[08:48] <troy_s> but it doesn't let you set all of the font options
[08:48] <troy_s> as per the prefs box (but simple, -- just a gconf adjustment from what i can tell)
[08:48] <troy_s> and it obviously doesn't automatically try to change the gdm etc
[08:49] <bersace> the wide theme switcher spec i proposed was an improvement of gnome theme properties
[08:50] <troy_s> yes i saw that
[08:51] <troy_s> basically it simply needs to have FULL font change, WALLPAPER change, etc., as opposed to the options currently afforded
[08:51] <troy_s> right now, two fonts are adjustable if you click an additional button, as well as the wallpaper suggestion.
[08:51] <mhb> how wide would a wide theme switcher be?
[08:51] <bersace> see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/wide-theme-switcher
[08:52] <mhb> cool
[08:54] <mhb> troy_s: can't you simply generate a message wave so strong that even sabdfl has to do something with it?
[08:54] <mhb> troy_s: I mean complain _real loud_
[08:55] <mhb> (you = the whole artwork team, or whoever wants that team to live and produce art)
[08:56] <troy_s> well...
[08:56] <troy_s> no
[08:56] <bersace> ack
[08:56] <troy_s> a) we need to respect sabdfl's opinion
[08:56] <troy_s> that said, i believe there is room in the design area of ubuntu, but it will require some demonstration first
[08:56] <troy_s> as in demonstrate what is possible, then hopefully have a bit of a groundswell of support.
[08:57] <troy_s> that might not happen of course, because are and design, despite being formalized disciplines, tend to generate bikeshedding from even the most quiet people.
[08:58] <mhb> troy_s: what is sabdfl's opinion now? I thought he hasn't made his mind up about the Feisty artwork yet.
[09:02] <mhb> one of the interesting things for me in the last cycle was that sabdfl has expressed his concerns over the artwork first at the later stages of the cycle
[09:02] <troy_s> No he has.
[09:02] <troy_s> What is interesting is that we had checkpoints the entire way to refined the search pattern as it were
[09:02] <troy_s> and he participated in none.
[09:03] <troy_s> even though he had many elements that he liked at various steps.
[09:04] <troy_s> the problem wasn't so much our end, but rather the lack of decision making
[09:04] <troy_s> frank ended up making decisions, even though he knew that he couldn't.
[09:04] <mhb> troy_s: I agree. There has to be someone who is devoted to the process and, at the same time, able to make decisions.
[09:05] <troy_s> and, quite frankly, he is unwilling to let that go.  it is almost as though he would prefer that design of ubuntu be directly suited to himself, as opposed to a more general audience.
[09:09] <mhb> troy_s: hmm ... reading your LP profile and the ubun2 page
[09:09] <mhb> troy_s: is that what you described as "demonstrate what's possible" ?
[09:10] <troy_s> possibly
[09:10] <troy_s> depends on how it evolves.
[09:12] <troy_s> it will require a lot of work.
[09:12] <mhb> I see
[09:16] <mhb> a lot of the active Edgy designers participate in there
[09:16] <troy_s> Some.  Our time is limited.  I am currently working on getting Paul Davey on board.
[09:16] <troy_s> He has thus far done up a mock or two, but unfortunately in Photoshop, so I can't apply it yet.
[09:17] <troy_s> I have also been in touch with the fellow from 555design.org, and he expressed some interest -- possibly to do the default wallpaper as his style is very well suited for the direction.
[09:20] <mhb> troy_s: I'll keep my fingers crossed for you
[09:20] <troy_s> No need really.  We will just need to see what sabdfl cooks up.
[09:20] <mhb> you said he has made up his mind about Feisty artwork - what were his ideas then?
[09:23] <troy_s> I think
[09:23] <troy_s> he is pursuing the rather folly stricken path of gloss and shine
[09:23] <troy_s> as opposed to attempting to push computer operating system design past the cliches
[09:26] <mhb> innovation is always misunderstood :o)
[09:26] <troy_s> which will be no shocker when all of the design buffs start seeing that apple _finally_ will start applying the trend that is pretty much in full swing outside of oses
[09:26] <troy_s> and then i suppose everyone will be doing it.
[09:26] <mhb> well, I myself seem to like the clarity of the glossy UIs like Aqua or Aero
[09:27] <troy_s> subjective relativity personally.
[09:27] <troy_s> design changes
[09:27] <troy_s> in 10 years we will look back and say 'what the hell were we thinking'?
[09:27] <troy_s> which is healthy
[09:27] <mhb> sure, we must move on
[09:27] <troy_s> but we must stay ahead of the curve, not chase design trends from the late 90s
[09:27] <troy_s> if you don't believe me, take a look at the trend that apple is moving in with itunes
[09:28] <troy_s> vista will show to all that gloss is well _overdone_
[09:28] <troy_s> to a gaudy level.
[09:28] <troy_s> chasing to be 'just like the other kids' never works in art and design.  never has.  never will.
[09:28] <troy_s> 2nd rate citizen with no hopes for surpassing the leaders.
[09:30] <mhb> well, trends may bring a lot of new users as wel
[09:30] <mhb> OS and artwork are a bit different worlds
[09:30] <mhb> art may become respected after several years or decades, even
[09:31] <mhb> but after several years an OS can become respected, but will not be used a lot, because its' features are outdated
[09:33] <troy_s> actually
[09:34] <troy_s> what you will find is that art / design trends and movements spans far greater areas than you probably
[09:34] <troy_s> think
[09:34] <troy_s> in fact, what you find is that culturally we follow artistic trends and movements
[09:34] <troy_s> and those trends are reflected across almost everything we do
[09:34] <troy_s> for example,
[09:35] <troy_s> if one were to compare something seemingly as trivial as say, car logo ornaments ('ford', 'dodge' etc.)
[09:35] <troy_s> and look at the sizes in the 50's
[09:35] <troy_s> you will see that they were _huge_, covering the bulk of a gate etc.
[09:35] <troy_s> then as we moved into the anti-commercialism phase of the 80's, they couldn't make them small enough
[09:35] <troy_s> now, you will see that they have been steadily growing in size yet again
[09:36] <troy_s> for example, the honda logo is almost 10cm across now on newer models.
[09:36] <troy_s> all of that basically illustrates that contemporary cultural attitudes are always reflected in art and design
[09:37] <troy_s> architecture is another area to examine if you want to see almost literal examples of attitudes embodied in design.
[09:39] <mhb> probably so
[09:40] <mhb> so what you're trying to do with ubun2 is to make the attitude more visible?
[09:40] <troy_s> well largely u2 is about taking what ubuntu 'feels' like from the standpoint of a user who hasn't utilized it.
[09:41] <troy_s> if you read the new design guidelines, you will see that it targets attracting folks to it.
[09:41] <troy_s> this means taking cues from the term 'ubuntu', how it is created, etc... and attempting to communicate those elements through solid design practices.
[09:41] <troy_s> ultimate, on some level, all of art and design is communication.
[09:42] <troy_s> if it fails to communicate, it fails.  this applies to interface elements, usage, aesthetics, etc.
[09:43] <msikma> I would go almost as far as to say that I work at a marketing company
[09:43] <msikma> (but I won't; I work at a design company. But the two are very tightly related, as you say.)
[09:43] <troy_s> indeed.  by no strange coincidence marketing and design are complexly intertwined.
[09:44] <msikma> oh, drat, that reminds me I still need to do some editing to that flash site
[09:47] <mhb> then it would be easy to assume that designers (as well as marketing) can push their ideas into production
[09:48] <troy_s> not sure what you mean.
[09:49] <troy_s> ?
[09:49] <mhb> I'm kind of surprised that artwork team (close to marketing) has problems with pushing their ideas into Ubuntu
[09:49] <troy_s> well we must always accept that
[09:50] <troy_s> a) not all ideas are great.
[09:50] <troy_s> b) ultimate democracy won't help the picture.
[09:50] <troy_s> c) the success of ubuntu is largely because of sabdfl's leadership, so we should at least respect his decisions even when we perceive them to be slightly off.
[09:51] <troy_s> considering that _no_ one has developed an operating system that wants to compare against ms and osx, it is a learning curve for all.
[09:51] <troy_s> further still, the respective teams need more people with formal education and experience.
[09:51] <troy_s> in my opinion.
[09:52] <mhb> yes
[09:52] <troy_s> otherwise it is just a tub of bike shedders.
[09:52] <mhb> launchpad is designed for the work of the teams and the admins who can make decisions
[09:52] <troy_s> however
[09:52] <troy_s> that assumes that the final decisions rest in the hands of a given number of people
[09:53] <troy_s> which is a false assumption.
[09:54] <mhb> really? why do you think so?
[09:55] <mhb> all Launchpad is build on this principle, in my opinion :o) you have the core devs, the council, the members ...
[09:56] <mhb> even though everyone can submit bugs/specs, the decision comes from above
[09:57] <troy_s> The decisions at some point, start and stop with sabdfl.
[09:57] <troy_s> At least for now.
[09:57] <troy_s> without his monetary support, ubuntu would probably just flounder the way that many other distributions do.
[09:57] <mhb> troy_s: yes, of course
[09:58] <mhb> but you must not forget all those volunteers. Kubuntu (my distribution of choice) pays only 2 of its developers (AFAIK), and one is an artwork designer (Ken).
[09:59] <troy_s> Well I don't know if Ken is on the payroll this cycle... I know he was trying to get on again.
[10:00] <mhb> I'm not sure either.
[10:02] <mhb> in my opinion the system of a paid employee as an administrator and other people as volunteers works quite well
[10:02] <mhb> if more people can make the decision, only better
[10:02] <troy_s> I think it works great.
[10:03] <troy_s> But again, Kubuntu has more or less free reigns as it isn't the principle driven project.
[10:03] <troy_s> sabdfl certainly is supporting as much of free software as he can
[10:03] <troy_s> but 'his' project is Ubuntu, and with it, he exerts extremely careful measure (even if a completely relative statement :) )
[10:06] <mhb> troy_s: it probably he has more or less the right to do it. But still, he can't oversee everything.
[10:07] <mhb> troy_s: when do you plan to finish Ubun2 (or make a stable release) ?
[10:08] <troy_s> well now that my show has wrapped
[10:08] <troy_s> i am attempting to pound away on the metacity elements
[10:09] <troy_s> and build a .1 release out of that
[10:09] <troy_s> probably by new year
[10:09] <troy_s> which will only offer up metacity ... possibly a few base icons from davey
[10:09] <troy_s> if i can get him up to speed quick enough
[10:10] <mhb> so you're doing a new icon set as well?
[10:12] <troy_s> well my view is that if you are going to design something
[10:12] <troy_s> you should consider the 'whole' not just small parts
[10:13] <troy_s> otherwise it is a rather frankenstein approach.
[10:13] <msikma> I'm confident that many people will like my theme once it's finished. I'm thinking of setting some kind of bounty for someone to do the programming part.
[10:14] <msikma> Since I really can't do that myself and have no intention to figure out how
[10:15] <troy_s> We actually have a couple of programmer types in our midst
[10:15] <troy_s> many of whom i have the utmost respect for
[10:15] <troy_s> bersace being one capable coder
[10:15] <troy_s> and sittisal i believe is a decent packager etc.
[10:16] <bersace> ack :)
[10:16] <troy_s> i sent davey some mail regarding a mock.
[10:16] <mhb> msikma: what kind of programming do you need?
[10:16] <troy_s> he basically mocked up a completely fresh folder icon
[10:16] <troy_s> which was very organic, but missing the elegant component.
[10:16] <bersace> i do only coding, no artwork :)
[10:16] <msikma> mhb: well, I'm working on a theme from scratch. I don't know how to do metacity/etc. markup
[10:16] <troy_s> metacity is easy
[10:16] <troy_s> as is gtk sik
[10:16] <msikma> Plus some tiny other things like packaging the cursors etc.
[10:17] <troy_s> but you should delve in yourself to figure out the limitations.
[10:17] <msikma> yeah, that, I probably should anyhow
[10:17] <troy_s> otherwise your expectations will be limited
[10:17] <troy_s> also, you should read some of the docs in the cvs regarding metacity 2
[10:17] <troy_s> etc.
[10:17] <troy_s> there are some slight theme adjustments.
[10:17] <msikma> does it support cool new features?
[10:18] <msikma> I really want anti-aliased corners
[10:18] <msikma> I also don't really see how it isn't viable from a technical point of view, since we now have SVG/32-bit PNG icons too.
[10:29] <troy_s> png isn't really a useful aspect
[10:29] <troy_s> svg is far more suitable to today's day and age.
[10:30] <troy_s> and the anti-aliased corners are a byproduct of the compositing system
[10:30] <troy_s> it is possible to augment the way windows are handled and achieve it, but i don't know who would do that.
[10:32] <msikma> there's also a lot to be said against svg usage.
[10:33] <troy_s> like?
[10:35] <msikma> well, for starters, the format is much more complex than png. it's very, very easy to screw up a vector image by having useless/invisible shapes that take up rendering time/ram.
[10:35] <msikma> whereas a png is just a grid of pixels.
[10:35] <troy_s> it isn't rendered dynamically
[10:35] <troy_s> i belive they are cached.
[10:35] <troy_s> so that isn't a huge factor.
[10:36] <msikma> the problems would still arise when resizing an image.
[10:36] <troy_s> Hrm... not exactly if they are cached
[10:36] <troy_s> you spend your cycles at the head, then it is done.
[10:37] <troy_s> basically, the svgs are nothing more than dynamically created pngs that are cached more or less.
[10:37] <msikma> you don't cache them at infinite size.
[10:37] <msikma> if you resize an svg larger than the version in cache, it needs to be rendered.
[10:37] <troy_s> no, they take the dest
[10:37] <troy_s> rect
[10:37] <troy_s> and render them
[10:37] <troy_s> once it is done, it is done.
[10:38] <troy_s> the only time that a svg might require dynamic rendering would be in an animated grow /shrink, but even then, in a good implementation, that caching would take place long before you require it.
[10:39] <_MMA_> Hi guys. I hope Im not interrupting. Im the lead on the Ubuntu Studio. In a week or 2 would anyone mind test-driving our theme so far?
[10:39] <_MMA_> Heres a current (work-in-progress) screenshot: http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/3971/screenshot2nz4.png
[10:39] <_MMA_> (Its big)
[10:39] <troy_s> love to.
[10:39] <troy_s> great work on that by the way
[10:39] <troy_s> i am quite happy that you idle here.
[10:39] <troy_s> you should be commended
[10:39] <_MMA_> Thanx. We're tryin.
[10:40] <troy_s> any hope of turning it into a nle as well?
[10:40] <msikma> woah. that color contrast is gigantic.
[10:40] <troy_s> as i work in the film industry, i would love to it.
[10:40] <msikma> is this, uh, what engine is that called again?
[10:40] <_MMA_> Im sorry. nle?
[10:40] <_MMA_> Murrine
[10:40] <msikma> yeah
[10:40] <troy_s> non linear edit suite
[10:40] <_MMA_> For video?
[10:40] <msikma> I don't really like murrine too much.
[10:41] <troy_s> you probably can't really see the 'murrine' element sik
[10:41] <troy_s> _MMA_ film and video yes.
[10:41] <troy_s> what you are seeing in that screenshot sik is the theming.
[10:42] <_MMA_> troy_s: Ahh... We're currently tryin to work out the license issues with Cinelerra.
[10:42] <troy_s> which is more or less vistaized.
[10:42] <_MMA_> lol. Ouch. :)
[10:42] <_MMA_> We're also workin on Jahshaka.
[10:43] <troy_s> Awsome!
[10:43] <troy_s> Jahshaka looks very promising.
[10:43] <troy_s> Any chance of collaborating with the cinelerra CVS folks?
[10:44] <_MMA_> It does, but it seems as though pro video work on linux is lacking.
[10:44] <troy_s> indeed.
[10:44] <_MMA_> Well we havnt had direct collaboration with them but we talk with them.
[10:44] <troy_s> largely because the tools aren't quite there.
[10:45] <troy_s> but jashaka with some of the high end cinelerra already developed bits would probably put it well on the map.
[10:45] <_MMA_> Ill take your word for it. Im a audio/art guy myself. :)
[10:46] <msikma> troy_s: sure I can. Remember when viper550 ported the human layout to murrine? You could very easily see the limitations, and this theme also exhibits that.
[10:46] <msikma> If it's impossible to tell it's murrine, then surely I wouldn't have noticed.
[10:46] <troy_s> hrm... what are you seeing msik?
[10:47] <troy_s> Nevertheless, keep the chin up -- your project is much needed... although I would prefer to see it as a metapackage if possible...
[10:47] <troy_s> As I would like to add the meta... what do you folks do differently?
[10:47] <_MMA_> Honestly, Murrine is a test. If we find out that it doesnt do what we want we'll look at something else.
[10:48] <troy_s> msikma:  the scrollbars to stink in murrine, which is why i am using pixbuf for the proofs of principle.
[10:48] <troy_s> in fact, why more folks don't use pixbuf is beyond me.
[10:48] <troy_s> in terms of handling look /feel it cannot be beaten.
[10:48] <_MMA_> troy_s: "differently " as far as what? :)
[10:48] <_MMA_> Im thinking Murrine was it so far.
[10:49] <troy_s> well i am wondering why you package it as a full blown distro as opposed to a metapackage... unless that has changed.
[10:49] <msikma> troy_s: mostly the combo boxes
[10:49] <_MMA_> Ohh...
[10:49] <troy_s> outlines are pretty much all gtk in any engine
[10:49] <_MMA_> Yea. We have support to do a full blown disk.
[10:49] <troy_s> is it metapackaged right now?
[10:49] <troy_s> in universe somewhere?
[10:49] <_MMA_> It will only be a "Alt" disk.
[10:50] <_MMA_> We DID have metas up based on Edgy for testing.
[10:50] <troy_s> a couple of quick notes
[10:50] <troy_s> aesthetics aside regarding the themes...
[10:50] <troy_s> you might want to sub handle the corners with pixbuf
[10:50] <_MMA_> We are currently working on getting whats needed into Universe.
[10:50] <troy_s> so that you can round the gloss
[10:50] <troy_s> as opposed to the linear travel across the 3d look
[10:50] <troy_s> round it down
[10:50] <troy_s> that is two pixmaps
[10:51] <troy_s> and a relatively simple add in to your metacity xml file.
[10:52] <_MMA_> You guys know of  Ayo? A French guy that does some nice art?
[10:52] <troy_s> let me see if i can scrub up some syntax.
[10:52] <troy_s> no...
[10:52] <troy_s> links?
[10:52] <_MMA_> http://www.73lab.com/index.php?menu_item=0&curr_lang=1
[10:53] <_MMA_> Hes gonna do a wall for us: http://ayo73.free.fr/ubuntustudio/logo-ubuntu-media-1700.png (this is early and wont be the default)
[10:53] <_MMA_> You might recognize the art.
[10:54] <ttoine> yep
[10:55] <ttoine> is there here someone very good at gnome theming ?
[10:55] <troy_s> learning quickly
[10:55] <troy_s> what do you need to know ttoine?
[10:56] <ttoine> hey, troy_s
[10:56] <troy_s> quick though, i must go pick up my daughter.
[10:56] <ttoine> actually, i am using a personalized theme in Ubuntu
[10:57] <ttoine> and since the Human theme, i have only one bad thing
[10:57] <ttoine> i use the control theme of clearlooks-bright, and i have the text-sign in the checkboxes, or radiobutton, that is too bright
[10:57] <ttoine> so i have two questio
[10:57] <ttoine> questions
[10:58] <troy_s> text-sign?
[10:58] <troy_s> as in the text that appears besides radio/checks?
[10:58] <ttoine> http://ttoine.net/capture.png
[10:58] <ttoine> no, not besides
[10:58] <ttoine> the check character
[10:59] <troy_s> ahh the actual check
[10:59] <troy_s> now i am with you
[10:59] <troy_s> quickly:  clearlooks bright?
[10:59] <ttoine> yep
[10:59] <troy_s> as your window controls?
[10:59] <ttoine> yes
[10:59] <troy_s> what package is that in?
[10:59] <ttoine> with a human theme base
[10:59] <ttoine> no package
[10:59] <ttoine> i just changed the details of the human theme in theme preferences
[10:59] <troy_s> let me do a quick look
[11:00] <ttoine> with the old human-legacy, the checkboxes look good
[11:00] <troy_s> Clearlooks
[11:00] <ttoine> since the new one, it is too bright$
[11:00] <troy_s> ClearlooksAlternative
[11:00] <troy_s> is all i see
[11:00] <ttoine> troy_s: no, i have the Human for windows border, and clearlookbrights for control, and tango or tangerine for icons
[11:01] <ttoine> what i would like to do is just change the color of the checkboxes so they are not too bright
[11:01] <troy_s> yes i don't have clearlooks bright
[11:01] <ttoine> and second, i would like to know how i can package that specifiec theme
[11:02] <troy_s> its very easy to do
[11:02] <ttoine> actually, i would like to keep a human base, as possible
[11:02] <troy_s> email me though, i really must head out.
[11:02] <troy_s> you can find me in launchpad easily.
[11:02] <troy_s> the colour is basically relatively simple to adjust
[11:02] <troy_s> if you bomb into gtkrc
[11:02] <troy_s> ok i must run for a few... sorry guys.
[11:03] <ttoine> troy_s: no matter, i email you
[11:03] <ttoine> what do you need ?
[11:03] <troy_s> i just need to see where clearlooks bright is coming from
[11:03] <troy_s> as in, if it were clearlooks, i can browse the files... clearlooks bright i don't see.
[11:04] <troy_s> if it is clearlooks, then just go into /usr/share/themes/Clearlooks
[11:04] <ttoine> ok, so you want me to send you the clearlook theme i am using ?
[11:04] <troy_s> and adjust the gtkrc file under gtkrc2.0
[11:04] <troy_s> just email me a reminder... i will look into it.
[11:04] <troy_s> also send me exactly what window control you are using...
[11:05] <troy_s> as in the full name.
[11:05] <troy_s> ClearlooksBright I don't have
[11:05] <troy_s> and it isn't installed by default.
[11:05] <troy_s> nor can i find it easily in the repos.
[11:05] <ttoine> the windows control i standard Human
[11:05] <ttoine> i just changed the control theme
[11:08] <ttoine> troy_s: wich troy are you on launchpad ?
[11:09] <mhb> https://launchpad.net/people/troy-sobotka/
[11:09] <mhb> :o)
[11:10] <mhb> I was reading it today, so I had the address saved ...
[11:10] <ttoine> ok, thanks a lot
[11:20] <bersace> troy_s: thanks for the title ;)
[11:36] <ttoine> troy_s: mail sent
[11:36] <troy_s> thanks


[02:00] <Gingerbear> bluebomber
[02:00] <bluebomber> Gingerbear:
[02:00] <Gingerbear> what have you been up to?
[04:41] <bluebomber> What's up, Gingerbear
[04:41] <bluebomber> Same ol', same ol' here.
[05:14] <bluebomber> Gingerbear.
[05:15] <bluebomber> Ping.


[18:39] <goaw_> hello, I have an idea for an Ubuntu OS... I was wondering where in the forums to post about it