[10:31] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:17] <jess44> is it easier to crack a password hash if youve got a salt?
[11:19] <jpds> You'd have to generate a complete rainbow table for that salt.
[11:19] <jess44> how do i do that?
[11:20] <jess44> also, whats a rainbow table?
[11:20] <jpds> And if they've used a single salt for a single user; you'd have to be *VERY* determined to go after that one user.
[11:20] <jpds> jess44: To the Google's.
[11:21] <jess44> k


[08:09] <enrico> Good morning people!
[08:09] <enrico> I imagine you are all still sleeping at this time, though
[08:09] <enrico> However, I wanted to send some HIs, telling you that I got to Taiwan, I got a new laptop and I'm bringing it online
[08:10] <enrico> Actually, with Ubuntu it installs out of the box, but I generally use Debian My Way and it takes a bit more
[08:10] <enrico> see you later!
[08:47] <Kinnison> Morning
[09:13] <ChrisH> Hey, folks...
[09:14] <Kinnison> Hi Chris
[09:14] <ChrisH> Hi, Dave... :)
[09:15] <Kinnison> ChrisH: try /whois
[09:15] <ChrisH> You can't do that, Dave!
[09:15] <ChrisH> I was David Bowman.
[09:16] <Kinnison> you're a silly silly man :-)
[09:16] <ChrisH> I'm severely tired...
[09:17] <ChrisH> Just had yesterday to recover from the journey. And a friend came by to ask which Linux flavor he should talk to get an easy desktop. So much for the Sunday. :)
[09:17] <Kinnison> Heh
[09:26] <ChrisH> s/talk/take/
[09:31] <plovs_work> hi guys
[09:36] <jiyuu0> plovs_work, hello
[09:37] <jiyuu0> is this disclamer ok?
[09:37] <jiyuu0> Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document for non commercial purpose, so long as all appropriate credit is provided, including author's name and original URL. The author makes no claim to the accuracy of the information provided. This information is provided in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Use this information at your own risk. Always make proper backups and use caution when modifying critical
[09:37] <jiyuu0> system files.
[11:05] <Burgundavia_> hello all
[11:07] <jiyuu0> hello
[11:10] <Kinnison> Marning Burgundavia_
[11:25] <lulu> hi all :o)
[12:08] <Burgundavia_> Kinnison, ??
[12:24] <Burgundavia_> anybody object if I set up a baz archive, as I don't have commit access to the svn archive
[12:25] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: Hi, Corey... can you set up that baz repo on the Canonical servers? Someone from Canonical promised to offer a sandbox.
[12:26] <Kinnison> For now, it'll be best for corey to do the archive on his machine I guess
[12:26] <Kinnison> We don't have an official place for it
[12:26] <Burgundavia_> is the userguide currently the quickguide?
[12:26] <Kinnison> baz is good enough that once you have an official place for it; you just branch it into the official place and everyone works from there instead
[12:27] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: No, the user guide is the large document. The quick guide does not yet have a place afaik.
[12:27] <ChrisH> Kinnison: Sounds good.
[12:27] <Burgundavia_> ChrisH, does the quickguide exist yet?
[12:27] <Kinnison> So I should help Burgundavia_ set up an archive for working on the quick-guide stuff?
[12:27] <Kinnison> Baz is pretty simple in the basic use-case
[12:27] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: Alex has started it already. But I think it's not committed yet.
[12:28] <Burgundavia_> yes, I saw alex working on it
[12:28] <Kinnison> Is alex still here?
[12:29] <ChrisH> Don't think so. He's online as plovs_work
[12:29] <ChrisH> Kinnison, Burgundavia_: Yes, would be great if you too create a baz repo.
[12:29] <Burgundavia_> ok can do
[12:30] <ChrisH> Is there already some basic information on a Wiki page on how to work with it? Like the 10 most frequently used commands or a simple transition guide for CVS/SVN users? I'd appreciate that.
[12:30] <Burgundavia_> check out the doc that can be installed with baz
[12:31] <Kinnison> ChrisH: I tell you what. I'll get Burgundavia_ to write a "quick start for baz for docteam" doc
[12:31] <Kinnison> bwuahahahaha
[12:31] <Burgundavia_> ahhh
[12:31] <ChrisH> :)
[12:32] <ChrisH> Isn't there a baz BOF these days that someone can take notes at?
[12:32] <Kinnison> Mako is taking notes IIRC
[12:32] <ChrisH> Good.
[01:20] <enrico> Hello!  Who's left at the conference?
[01:21] <enrico> Kinnison: welcome in ubuntu-doc!
[01:21] <enrico> all the others have left already?
[01:22] <Kinnison> enrico: Now; don't take my presence as meaning that I want to write docs :-)
[01:22] <enrico> Burgundavia_: welcome in ubuntu-doc!
[01:25] <ChrisH> enrico: Hey... :)
[01:29] <Burgundavia_> I have set up a baz archive and have started working on the quickguide
[01:29] <Kinnison> Woohoo!
[01:30] <Kinnison> I *would* teach him how to make a mirror; but he lacks any webspace of use
[01:32] <enrico> ChrisH: hey!
[01:33] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: You want Pepperfish hosting. Mmmmm Pepperfish
[01:34] <enrico> Kinnison: pepperfish?
[01:36] <Burgundavia_> that is Kinnison's hosting company
[01:37] <enrico> oh, cool!  Does he give out free hosting? :)
[01:37] <Kinnison> No :-)
[01:53] <plovs_work> hi guys, sorry for being away, work is really work sometimes
[01:54] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, welcome to license-hell
[01:54] <jiyuu0> ya
[01:54] <jiyuu0> so long to read
[01:54] <jiyuu0> and confusing
[01:54] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, and what you wrote is still not free enough, i'm afraid
[01:55] <jiyuu0> wow
[01:55] <jiyuu0> maybe i'll take it out... no license
[01:55] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, no go, you need some sort of license :-)
[01:56] <jiyuu0> sigh
[01:56] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, but we can work something out
[01:56] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, now you know where all the lawyer jokes coe from
[01:56] <plovs_work> come from
[01:56] <plovs_work> it's all their fault
[01:56] <jiyuu0> haha
[01:57] <jiyuu0> i think i'll just put whatever i've modified today
[01:57] <jiyuu0> then later wait for ppl to suggest
[01:57] <jiyuu0> at least better than my previous disclaimer
[01:57] <enrico> plovs_work: hi!  Are you back to work already?
[01:57] <enrico> what is the license problem?
[01:57] <plovs_work> enrico, hi! yes back at work, how is Taiwan?
[01:58] <plovs_work> enrico, jiyuu0 is trying to find a license for his work, without being beaten up
[01:58] <enrico> plovs_work: quite nice!  Very warm, cheap laptops (I finally got a new one)
[01:58] <plovs_work> enrico, about time :-)
[01:58] <enrico> plovs_work: what are the requirements?  GFDL?  Some free version of CreativeCommons?
[01:58] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, enrico knows more about licenses then most of us
[01:59] <jiyuu0> plovs_work, yes... givin but still got crusify
[01:59] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, that is license-hell for you, for fun say GFDL is not free on #debian-legal
[02:00] <jiyuu0> how can free not free
[02:00] <jiyuu0> some ppl just like to debate
[02:00] <enrico> debian-legal is generally a bit of a mess
[02:00] <plovs_work> enrico, what is a good license for docs?
[02:00] <plovs_work> enrico, and why?
[02:00] <enrico> however, it may be that Debian and FSF sort the mess and something will be solved
[02:01] <plovs_work> enrico, i think they will, it is really knit-picking they are doing atm
[02:01] <enrico> plovs_work: a good license depends on what you want to do with it
[02:02] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, so what do you want to do with it?
[02:02] <plovs_work> what are your requirements?
[02:02] <jiyuu0> give it away for free... do whatever u like.. give some credit... and not use for commercial
[02:03] <plovs_work> enrico, it is about http://ubuntuguide.org/ btw
[02:03] <plovs_work> enrico, could we use material license under such a license?
[02:04] <plovs_work> enrico, i would like to use the material if all parties agree, it is really good
[02:04] <Burgundavia_> If it is non-commercial, can we still include that in our stuff?
[02:04] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, still in Spain?
[02:04] <Burgundavia_> yep
[02:05] <Burgundavia_> I don't know if you caught it, but I am actively working on the quick guide on my machine
[02:06] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, wuld non-commercial be an issue?
[02:06] <enrico> jiyuu0: uh, non commercial is quite a requirement.  For example, GFDL allows commercial redistribution (that is, selling it) as long as when you buy it, it is still free software (that is, you can modify it, sell it, give it away and so on)
[02:06] <Burgundavia_> I don't know
[02:07] <Burgundavia_> I will go find a Canonical person and clear it
[02:07] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, for example if we would put it on the cd, we want to be able to sell the cd
[02:07] <jiyuu0> enrico, so if they take it... just change the name... print it and sell... it's ok?
[02:07] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, and they give you credit also
[02:08] <jiyuu0> plovs_work, but ubuntu going to be free right?
[02:08] <Burgundavia_> That is how about 5-10 years ago all those guides came out that that were basically just tldp stuff glued together
[02:08] <plovs_work> enrico, gfdl does not require credit does it?
[02:08] <enrico> jiyuu0: if they take it, change the title, print it and sell it it's ok as long as what they print and sell is still free (that is, when you buy you can then modify, print, sell, give away...)
[02:08] <enrico> jiyuu0: however, they can't take your name away from it (that is even illegal in many countries, no matter what the license says)
[02:08] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, it is freem you can download it, but it is ok to sell the disc as well
[02:09] <jiyuu0> ic
[02:09] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, afaik the stuff we write is or will be under gfdl (right enrico?)
[02:09] <Kinnison> GPL *please*
[02:09] <jiyuu0> i think i'll follow the license u guys use
[02:10] <jiyuu0> less headache
[02:10] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, i am sorry for the trouble, but that is the world we live in...
[02:10] <enrico> plovs_work: he can decide.  I think GPL would be nice.
[02:10] <plovs_work> enrico, what is the difference between GPL and GFDL?
[02:11] <plovs_work> enrico, for simple people like me? with short words?
[02:11] <enrico> jiyuu0: GPL says that the work should come with its source code, so if you generate the HTML from some other file, you should also distribute the sources
[02:11] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, could i get your stuff from somewhere to check it out?
[02:12] <jiyuu0> but gpl only for software right... no doc
[02:12] <plovs_work> enrico, eg the docbook file i am writing already
[02:12] <enrico> jiyuu0: GFDL is still a bit messy now, in that it allows some parts to be unmodifiable
[02:12] <jiyuu0> and the html is the whole source code
[02:13] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, at least you get to meet lots of nteristing folk :-)
[02:14] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, make is not a lawyer afaik, besides he's a funny guy
[02:15] <jiyuu0> make?
[02:15] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, mako
[02:16] <enrico> jiyuu0: I think plovs_work scared you a bit, though
[02:16] <enrico> mako isn't responding now unfortunately
[02:17] <jiyuu0> ok...
[02:17] <lulu> jiyuu0: Hiya! I'm not a license lawyer. We need to update the website with our documentation license = GFDL. We have decided on this as Canonical is a commercial company  and we sponsor Ubuntu.
[02:17] <jiyuu0> i just don't want to make other ppl / myself in trouble because of the guide...
[02:17] <enrico> I know GPL very well, something of Creative Commons, but not much of GFDL except that it's still a bit messy
[02:18] <lulu> We understand that there are invarient sections and we ask that as these are contentious, they are not included. However, you are entitled to license your work under any license you choose. You may have taken work from the wiki and mailing lists. Mailing list doc are copyright by their owner I understand. Wiki work is copyright by the owner and people assign copyright to Canonical so we can use work to help Ubuntu.
[02:18] <mako> hey there
[02:18] <Burgundavia_> also remember that CCbyA is not compatible with GFDL
[02:18] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: If you need it I can always set you up a space to put your bazaar archive mirror for others to work with
[02:18] <enrico> mako: !
[02:18] <mako> enrico: hey there
[02:18] <enrico> mako: welcome!
[02:19] <enrico> mako: plovs_work asked about the difference between GPL and GFDL
[02:19] <mako> alright.. the GFDL is designe specifically for documentation and the GPL refers particularly to computer programs
[02:20] <mako> but additionally, RMS believes that the two should be treated differently
[02:20] <jiyuu0> lulu, but if my work is taken from elsewhere... like previous research on fedora/other distro... how does that count?
[02:20] <mako> both have copyleft style parts
[02:20] <jiyuu0> it's not exactly from wiki and mailing list here...
[02:20] <mako> the GPL is more simple and portable but it refers to things like binaries versus, source, etc etc which don't apply cleanly to the world of documentation
[02:21] <mako> the GFDL is much younger and more controversial
[02:21] <plovs_work> mako, is it possible to license and the later change it to something else?
[02:21] <mako> it allows for invariant, non-removeable sections (which are limited to "off topic" primarily non-technical bits in teh text of the license but are often not described that way)
[02:22] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, The simplest thing to remember is that if you are original creator, you can relicense at will. If you are not, you can only use under the license granted
[02:22] <mako> in addition to invarient non-removeable front covertexts, back-covertexts
[02:22] <mako> dedications, acknolwedgements
[02:22] <mako> and invarient removeable endorsements
[02:22] <lulu> jiyuu0: what you take from elsewhere remains under the license it was created under.
[02:22] <mako> it also contains a number of issue which are more commonly described as "bugs" in the license
[02:22] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, but u talking about some command and stuff
[02:22] <Burgundavia_> In addition, if there is no licence explicitly given, the work remain copyright, and you cannot use it
[02:22] <jiyuu0> so it's hard to justify where it's from
[02:22] <jiyuu0> it could be from friend
[02:22] <mako> including one part which some people have interpreted to mean that encryption or even compression of GFDL documents might be in violation of the license
[02:22] <jiyuu0> or here and there...
[02:23] <mako> it's very clear that this is not the intention, and rms has said he would want to fix this
[02:23] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, A statement like "rm -rf" cannot be copyright, but "Using rm -rf while root at / is not recommonded" is
[02:23] <mako> but for a number of political reason, teh FSF has been very slow to release a new draft of the license -- even to solve the "bugs".. software is (and should be) a higher priority for them
[02:23] <jiyuu0> lulu, elsewhere could be own research... from ppl, books, internet
[02:23] <mako> plovs_work: the copyright holder of a work can relicense a work
[02:24] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, but if taken from different resource with diff license... how?
[02:24] <mako> plovs_work: but they can't change the of texts which they have already distributed under any free software license
[02:24] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, It is better to be safe than sorry, as companies (ie Canonical) usually make better targets
[02:24] <mako> plovs_work: things get complicated when you have many contributors to a single project
[02:24] <plovs_work> mako, ok, thanks
[02:25] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, sigh... headache... really confused
[02:25] <mako> plovs_work: because it would mean taht you either need to find all contributs to relicense (and get them to consent) or you need to have *signed* copyright assignements
[02:25] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, Yes, copyright sucks
[02:25] <mako> plovs_work: this is what the FSF does. if you want to contribute to an fsf project.. you fax them a signed copyright assignment
[02:25] <jiyuu0> mako, would you mind lookin at http://ubuntuguide.org and suggest a proper license
[02:26] <mako> jiyuu0: i have seen it
[02:26] <jiyuu0> mako, info there are not taken 100% from ubuntu wiki
[02:26] <jiyuu0> but a mix from here and there
[02:26] <mako> one problem with the GFDL is that is basically incompatible with *every* other license
[02:26] <enrico> I suggest you slow down the discussion a bit, before jiyuu0 gets a headache...
[02:26] <ChrisH> Too late for me already. :)
[02:26] <jiyuu0> enrico, thanks... tension with these issues
[02:27] <Burgundavia_> plovs_work, Kinnison is going to set me up a public mirror after the meeting
[02:27] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, sorry for the trouble, and i *still* think your doc is great
[02:27] <mako> jiyuu0: it depends on what you want.. if you want debian to be able to include it, something like the GPL or a public domain dedication or a BSD style license would be a good idee
[02:27] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, who is Kinnison? do i know him? (who am i? do i really exist? ...)
[02:28] <jiyuu0> mako, so meaning GPL is the standard... with less problem
[02:28] <jiyuu0> compared to others
[02:28] <mako> jiyuu0: i personally use CC licenses.. usually the CC version 1.0 sharealike or the new cc-attrib-sharelike.. although the new licenses are not debian compatible
[02:28] <Burgundavia_> plovs_work, Kinnison =  Daniel Silverstone
[02:28] <mako> jiyuu0: well, it's a software license.. and it doesn't require attribution, if this is something that you want
[02:28] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Haven't you been to the Marina with us? :) Kinnison was the guy besides my wife.
[02:29] <plovs_work> i was, you have a photo?
[02:29] <ChrisH> plovs_work: All his photos suck. And I didn't take one of him.
[02:29] <jiyuu0> mako, so i'll go for GPL then
[02:29] <jiyuu0> if that solves the problem
[02:29] <plovs_work> ChrisH, ok, got it already, sorry, old age setting in...
[02:31] <ChrisH> plovs_work: John seems to be confused about the quick guide...
[02:31] <mako> jiyuu0: right.. now if you've used pieces from the wiki, those bits are copyright the author
[02:31] <jiyuu0> and...
[02:31] <jiyuu0> have to credit em?
[02:31] <plovs_work> ChrisH, i can do a write-up to the list
[02:32] <mako> jiyuu0: technically, you have to get the permission for hte authors
[02:33] <jiyuu0> that is not somthing easy... i have to do reverse engineering
[02:33] <mako> jiyuu0: it's very difficult
[02:33] <jiyuu0> true
[02:33] <mako> jiyuu0: i mean, go ahead adn put your document under the license of your choice
[02:33] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Very good. We should coordinate work on the nutshell thingy (the "6000 words" one), too.
[02:34] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, could you send me what you have by mail?
[02:34] <plovs_work> brb
[02:35] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: once I've sorted you out with a mirror for your archive; I'll take you through what is needed for others to work with you and then you can write a wikipage for it
[02:36] <enrico> mako: what would it take to make it so that everything in the wiki is under a free license?
[02:37] <enrico> mako: putting notices in the edit pages?
[02:37] <mako> that is what other people do
[02:37] <enrico> mako: could we do it as well?
[02:37] <mako> that is what, for example, wikipedia does
[02:37] <mako> yes, we could do it
[02:38] <mako> if you forsee enforcement of the license though, i seriously doubt this will be enough
[02:38] <lulu> enrico: we were going to put it in the legal page with all the legal stuff. Do you think we need it on every page?
[02:38] <enrico> mako: I think we shuold, since we intend the wiki to be a scrapbook for bigger documentation
[02:38] <enrico> lulu: in the "edit page" page for sure
[02:38] <mako> the FSF requires signed copyright assignements from every significant contributor to a gnu project
[02:38] <enrico> mako: oh, annoying
[02:40] <lulu> enrico: edit page = good idea.
[02:41] <mako> lulu: yes
[02:41] <mako> enrico: yeah, this is why people don't do it
[02:41] <mako> really, the biggest problem i forsee is having lots of documents that you want merge under incompatible licenses
[02:42] <mako> quite honestly, i don't see consensus forming around the GFDL for a number of reasons
[02:42] <mako> but there is a lot of existing technical and free software documentation under the GFDL
[02:43] <mako> but if we were to merge most of it, it would require bringing in invarient nonremoveable sections and printing things like "A GNU Manual" on the cover of any books and the address of the FSF on the back
[03:10] <plovs_work> Kinnison, will this mirror be svn, arch or ftp?
[03:10] <Kinnison> it'll be a bazaar mirror
[03:10] <Kinnison> over ftp
[03:10] <Kinnison> or http
[03:10] <plovs_work> Kinnison, but we might use baz as well?
[03:11] <Kinnison> Indeed. Bazaar is the right way (tm)
[03:11] <plovs_work> Kinnison, thanks, cool
[03:13] <Kinnison> If people need bazaar help, lifeless here is the project lead
[03:14] <ChrisH> lifeless: Hey... glad to have someone who answers to stupid questions. :)
[03:14] <lifeless> :)
[03:14] <plovs_work> lifeless, we want zsh command-line completion for baz ... please?
[03:15] <ChrisH> First we probably need some documentation on baz (Wiki Quickstart page)
[03:15] <plovs_work> ChrisH, spoilsport
[03:16] <lifeless> so, there is a wiki, and we're starting on doco at the moment.
[03:16] <ChrisH> Very good, Sir.
[03:17] <lifeless> for zeesh, someone could port the tla completions :)
[03:17] <lifeless> I'm not a zeesher.
[03:21] <Burgundavia_> back
[03:22] <mako> Burgundavia_: what were your concerns with using the GPL for commerciail publications?
[03:22] <mako> Burgundavia_: the GPL does not bar commercial distributrion of software and would not bar commercial distribution of documentation either
[03:22] <Burgundavia_> ture
[03:22] <Burgundavia_> true
[03:23] <Burgundavia_> No, my concern was not around the GPL
[03:23] <mako> Burgundavia_: what was it with?
[03:23] <mako> i guess i didn't really follow it
[03:23] <Burgundavia_> My concern was around the current license of jiyuu0's text says non-commercial only
[03:23] <mako> Burgundavia_: oh, right
[03:23] <jiyuu0> i can remove it
[03:24] <mako> well, it sounds like jiyuu0 is interested in fixing that
[03:24] <mako> jiyuu0: lets wait a day or two and try to find the Right license
[03:24] <mako> jiyuu0: i like the idea of using CC-BY-SA myself
[03:24] <mako> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
[03:25] <mako> i think it's free enough that it is in the spirit (and maybe even letter) of free software licenses but ensures that attribution is kept (which the GFDL does) and that it is copyleft (that the GFDL does) almost any of the parts people find problematic
[03:25] <mako> sorry without almost any of the parts taht people find problematic
[03:26] <mako> that page is not the text of the license, althought it has a link.. but is a good human readable summary
[03:26] <Burgundavia_> but that leaves us out in the cold as we use GFDL does it not?
[03:26] <mako> Burgundavia_: define we? :)
[03:26] <mako> Burgundavia_: i'm going to talk to mark shuttleworth about the canonical produce documentation
[03:26] <Burgundavia_> the doc team
[03:27] <Burgundavia_> ok
[03:27] <mako> but almost everyone on the docteam can use whatever license they choose
[03:27] <mako> because they don't work for canonical
[03:27] <mako> and people, like jiyuu0 and many others.. are not particularly happy about the GFDL
[03:27] <enrico> mako: well, mark already decided on GFDL some time ago
[03:28] <jiyuu0> actually i have no issues
[03:28] <Burgundavia_> I am not a huge fan of the GFDL either
[03:28] <mako> i'm not either actually, but since i work for canonical it doesn't matter :)
[03:28] <jiyuu0> only scared ppl have issue on me
[03:28] <mako> jiyuu0: well, there are reasons to be concerned by the GFDL
[03:28] <mako> jiyuu0: at least the current draft
[03:28] <mako> enrico: lulu has asked me to talk to mark about this
[03:28] <mako> enrico: because it is a topic that keeps coming up on the doc list and seems to be keeping people from doing work and moving forward
[03:29] <mako> enrico: do you think moving to a non-gfdl documentation license would be an improvement?
[03:29] <mako> i'm a little worried because evidently, many people in wikipedia are regretting their decisions
[03:29] <Burgundavia_> When WP was started CC did not exist
[03:29] <mako> but because they do not track copyright holders, they can't relicense
[03:30] <Burgundavia_> otherwise they would probably have gone with it
[03:30] <mako> CC licenses are (a) international (b) written by lawyers (c) more tested and more used (d) more simple (to enfforce, to understand, to use)
[03:31] <mako> gfdl has optional front cover texts, back cover texts, invarient sections, acknowledgements, dedications, endorsements and additional bits that come to effect when you're copying in quantity
[03:31] <mako> it's complex :)
[03:32] <Burgundavia_> GFDL makes it almost impossible to small printed documents, as you need to print a whole crapload of hte GFDL
[03:32] <mako> Burgundavia_: yes
[03:32] <mako> Burgundavia_: CC licenses allow you to provide a URI
[03:32] <mako> *and* CC documents are international
[03:33] <mako> there are versions updated to the language and law of a dozen or so countries
[03:33] <mako> while the GFDL is US only
[03:33] <mako> i mean, it might o
[03:33] <mako> work other places too.. but that wasn't a goal
[03:33] <Burgundavia_> but all this wonderful talk is just hotair unless we can get Mark to go along
[03:33] <mako> Burgundavia_: i can talk to mark
[03:34] <mako> but i would like to be able to say taht i'm representing teh view of more than myself :)
[03:34] <mako> enrico: what do you think?
[03:34] <mako> enrico: i know one of your concerns was with debian compatibilituy
[03:34] <Burgundavia_> I would go with CCbySA if we can
[03:35] <mako> enrico: and quite honestly, i don't know a single up-to-date documentation license taht debian-legal likes
[03:35] <mako> enrico: but i suspect that if someoen pushed a gr, the CC-bysa would pass
[03:35] <Burgundavia_> so pretty much debian compatiablity is a no go anyway
[03:35] <mako> unless you want to use a sofware license for documentation.. or a public domain dedication
[03:36] <mako> which is not necessarily bad
[03:36] <enrico> mako: I don't know much about Debian, but I think that debian's rebuttal of it made many people wary
[03:36] <mako> although i prefer copyleft licenses myself
[03:36] <mako> enrico: of the GFDL or of the CC-bysa
[03:36] <mako> ?
[03:36] <plovs_work> mako, i would like as free as possible, but debian-compatible as well
[03:36] <enrico> I do prefer copyleft licenses
[03:36] <enrico> Of the GFDL, because it made much more noise
[03:36] <enrico> what was wrong with the CC-bysa?
[03:36] <mako> enrico: unless you use a pre 2.0 CC (i.e, out of date), there are no copyleft documentation licenses i know of
[03:37] <mako> enrico: very bizarre hair splitting things
[03:37] <enrico> (besides the unspellable name, and probably that they've taken it out)
[03:38] <enrico> the only concern about GFDL was that it can't go in Debian main (so far)
[03:38] <mako> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg01193.html
[03:38] <mako> but i strongly disagree with most of that interpretation
[03:39] <mako> i think that "
[03:39] <mako> If this is the case, private distribution of the work would seem to be
[03:39] <mako> forbidden. Along with obvious technological measures that control access,
[03:39] <mako> such as a firewall on a LAN or a virtual private network (VPN), distributing
[03:39] <mako> using encryption (such as Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)) would appear to be
[03:39] <mako> prohibited."
[03:39] <mako> that is a pretty ridiculous interpretation
[03:39] <mako> it's CLEAR to me that they're not banning private distribution :)
[03:39] <mako> intent matters in law and -legal doesn't seem to realize that
[03:40] <enrico> if you don't take intents into consideration when checking laws, no laws will ever be sane
[03:41] <enrico> one could add an explicit statement to please debian-legal, though, but that's a bit arrogant since debian-legal doesn't appear to be sane here
[03:41] <enrico> BTW, how come CC took that license out?
[03:46] <mako> because 95+% of people who used CC licenses used attribution :)
[03:47] <mako> they said they would add them back if there was a major outcry
[03:47] <mako> i emailed them and ask them to create a pure SA license
[03:47] <mako> but i guess other people did not
[04:05] <enrico> mako: let debian-legal do it
[04:05] <Burgundavia_> back again
[04:05] <enrico> or we can plea for CC-ification of a fixed GFDL like it happened with GPL
[04:05] <Burgundavia_> can I force an absolute path for loading of images in docbook format?
[04:09] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: In theory: yes. But if someone decides to put the guide into somewhere different than / (which could easily happen on the ubuntulinux.org web site as well) then the image is broken.
[04:10] <Burgundavia_> ok, so the best is the distribute the image with the guide then?
[04:15] <ChrisH> We need to do that anyway.
[04:28] <Burgundavia_> ok
[05:05] <Burgundavia_> I have done a mock up of graphical style of showing how to use an application. I also think we can release it to translators as an svg, so they can just import the new screenshot and change the text, then reexport the png
[05:05] <Burgundavia_> what do people think?
[05:34] <enrico> Burgundavia_: I didn't quite get what you mean
[05:34] <enrico> Burgundavia_: :(
[05:35] <Burgundavia_> Ok, I think we should use screenshots
[05:36] <Burgundavia_> however, we should also have that screenshot with help messages showing what buttons do what
[05:36] <Burgundavia_> However, thus it makes hard to translate
[05:37] <Burgundavia_> my solution, keep the screenshot-with-explaination in svg format for us, and exported to png for the released document
[05:37] <Burgundavia_> thus, the translators can translate the svg and get a new screenshot and reexport
[05:37] <Burgundavia_> do you understand that?
[05:50] <enrico> ah, ok.  But how do you make a SVG screenshot?
[05:50] <enrico> I'd love to be able to make SVG screenshots, actually
[05:52] <Burgundavia_> no svg screenshot, png screenshot
[05:52] <Burgundavia_> using gimp
[05:53] <Burgundavia_> the new license is CCbySA2.0
[05:54] <mako> hey guys, i just talked to mark
[05:54] <enrico> Burgundavia_: ah, screenshot-with-explanation!  Now I get it
[05:54] <mako> and he says that CCbysa is good to guy if there's consensus that it's a better license
[05:54] <mako> good to go even
[05:55] <mako> :)
[05:55] <mako> so, it's up to the team
[05:55] <mako> if there's consensus that CCbySA is a bettter choice, i can update the text and hook it up
[05:55] <enrico> Burgundavia_: can't it be done directly with captions inside docbook?  Or it's one of those cool explanations that circle the things and tell what they are?  In that case, yes, SVG would be very cool!
[05:55] <enrico> mako: wasnt CCbySA outdated?
[05:56] <Burgundavia_> yes, it circles each description
[05:56] <enrico> mako: I mean, not in 2.0?
[05:56] <Burgundavia_> enrico, yes by 2.0
[05:56] <mako> no.. CC-SA was outdated
[05:56] <mako> plain old sa is only a 1.0 license
[05:56] <enrico> so, CC did a 2.0 free license after all?
[05:56] <mako> by-sa is both a 1.0 anda  2.0 license
[05:56] <enrico> and is CCbySA free?
[05:56] <enrico> and is CCbySA fine for Debian?
[05:57] <lulu> mako: thanks for getting that initiated - so does everyone know what the CC-BY-SA license is and how it's different?
[05:57] <mako> debian legal said that *all* cc 2.0 licenses. perhaps 1.0 licenses are non-free
[05:57] <mako> for what are, in my opinion, questionable reasoning
[05:57] <mako> they claimed that the license as written blocked private distribution
[05:58] <mako> which is not a sane interpretation of the license IMHO and very clearly not the intent of the license
[05:58] <enrico> lulu: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
[05:58] <sivang> HI all
[05:58] <mako> enrico: yes
[05:58] <sivang> yo mako
[05:58] <sivang> :)
[05:58] <mako> sivang: home safe? :)
[05:58] <enrico> sivang: hi!
[05:59] <sivang> yeah, but mataro home sick :)
[05:59] <mako> enrico: OT: are you in taiwan?
[05:59] <enrico> mako: yes, and about to go to bed
[05:59] <enrico> mako: and with a *new laptop*
[05:59] <sivang> I really miss the conference..and  all the guys..
[05:59] <lulu> enrico: yes - thanks! :o) Mako sent it to me earlier - but others may not know...  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
[05:59] <sivang> enrico : congretulations!
[05:59] <sivang> hi lulu!
[06:00] <mako> enrico: read that license.. i think it's in the spirit of free software
[06:00] <mako> enrico: i've also had CC employees tell me they were interested  din working with us to make their licesne DFSG free
[06:00] <lulu> sivang: welcome back.! Ofer asked me for your email today, so he should be in touch soon.
[06:00] <mako> enrico: and there are *no* documentation licenses that -legal has approved
[06:00] <mako> enrico: i think we need to read teh license, read legals criticism, and then make our move
[06:01] <sivang> lulu : cool, thanks , I only now reached a machine so I will probably get those email by now.
[06:01] <mako> enrico: -legal has said they would not approve the GPL
[06:01] <Burgundavia_> When I import into Inkscape, I lose resolution, it is very annoying
[06:01] <mako> enrico: i'm confident that if/when someone pushese a gr on these licenses, we will be able to get this past the developers
[06:01] <mako> ALSO, these licenses are all "ported" to other languages and legal systems
[06:02] <mako> so you can get the italian version updated to italian language and law.. and germany, brazil, japan, etc etc
[06:02] <mako> i have some serious criticism with the CC project. but they make very good licenses :)
[06:02] <enrico> mako: yes, and CC is well known as well
[06:03] <mako> and widely used
[06:03] <enrico> for me, it's cool stuff.  Would you like to post to ubuntu-doc a summary of your talk with mark and its outcome?
[06:03] <mako> i'm comfortable going ahead of debian-legal with this licensees although i was not with the GFDL
[06:03] <enrico> (I'm on my way to the bed)
[06:03] <mako> enrico: yes.. it's up to the team ultimately
[06:03] <mako> enrico: i'll do that
[06:05] <lulu> mako: it will be great to resolve this for Ubuntu asap. Lets' aim to have it finalised before the end of the week if possible. well done :o)
[06:07] <enrico> mako: so this thing could be brought up to debian-legal to reopen a discussion to rechallenge the hair-splitting maybe
[06:07] <enrico> but I have no head to think about it now
[06:07] <enrico> 01:07 here
[06:07] <mako> yeah, lets talk about legal another day
[06:07] <enrico> I mean, people are generally pissed about -legal, so it might come the time in which reopening discussions leads to toasting the original unreasonable things
[06:07] <mako> it will be Mako Vs. The Natives
[06:08] <mako> and for political reasons regarding to the GFDL negotiations, i have been hesitant to challenge people on that list
[06:08] <mako> becuase they immediately say "you can't represent debian for the gfdl!" as soon as they see i disagree with any of them on anything
[06:08] <enrico> mako: I suggest some teaming up with others, just not to be you against all
[06:09] <mako> well that doesn't mitigate the second issue
[06:19] <Burgundavia_> never mind, I can put the svg in a file and link it to the docbook
[06:47] <Burgundavia_> I got svg to display in yelp, but pngs through svg look butt ugly
[06:56] <Kinnison> I know that feeling :-(
[06:59] <Burgundavia_> Kinnison, it works in greyscale
[07:01] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Smells like whatever renderer yelp is using is moosed then
[07:42] <sivang> Kinnision : daniel!
[07:43] <sivang> :)
[07:45] <Kinnison> sivang: HI
[07:52] <Burgundavia_> it looks pretty slick
[07:52] <Burgundavia_> Kinnison, are you downstairs yet?
[07:53] <sivang> Kinnision : since when you are hanging on the doc team channel? :)
[07:53] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: yep
[07:53] <sivang> Burgundavia_ : hey cori, what's up?
[07:53] <Kinnison> sivang: so you can say hi to me
[07:53] <Kinnison> sivang: and I'm stalking Burgundavia_ for extra fun
[07:53] <sivang> heheh
[07:53] <sivang> :)
[07:54] <sivang> no more mao for me :(
[07:55] <Kinnison> Until you come again
[07:55] <Kinnison> I'll need that long to train corey up. He can't remember how 7s work
[07:56] <sivang> Will you be teaching him through IRC?
[07:56] <Burgundavia_> hey!!!
[07:56] <Kinnison> he's here
[07:56] <Kinnison> well, over <--- there
[07:57] <sivang> ah right , Burgundavia_  untill when are you staying in the conference?
[07:57] <Burgundavia_> the very end
[07:58] <Burgundavia_> plus 2 days
[07:58] <sivang> ah that's cool!
[07:59] <sivang> why more 2 days?
[07:59] <sivang> are you going to tour mataro/barcelona in the remanining wones?
[07:59] <sivang> ones
[08:05] <Burgundavia_> mako, get daff for me
[08:05] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: daff?
[08:06] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: it's 'daf' dearie
[08:13] <Burgundavia_> hey plovs, I got svg working in yelp, but colour images don't work
[08:13] <plovs> #ok
[08:14] <plovs> and b/w images?
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> yep, works fine
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> so, we ship b/w until the yelp people get off their butt
[08:14] <plovs> weird, must be a bug
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> ya
[08:14] <plovs> colour works ok here
[08:14] <plovs> on hoary
[08:14] <plovs> on warty also btw
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> png inside svg inside docbook in yelp?
[08:14] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: right; we need to get your archive signed
[08:15] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: How much have you committed to it?
[08:18] <Burgundavia_> a bunch
[08:19] <Burgundavia_> ah, I may not have committed
[08:19] <Kinnison> heh
[08:19] <Kinnison> right; we can do it cleanly
[08:29] <Burgundavia_> ya, committed
[10:50] <ChrisH> Where was the Moin markup page on the Wiki again?


[03:11] <svaksha> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/992, awaits approval
[04:02] <svaksha> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/992, awaits approval
[06:48] <Burgundavia> robitaille: for some reason, when I try and edit a story, it kicks me out to "coming soon"
[06:48] <Burgundavia> any ideas?
[06:56] <robitaille> I don't know why it does that.
[07:00] <Rinchen> Burgundavia, do you have the number handy?
[07:01] <Burgundavia> Rinchen: what were we talking about? I forgot
 robitaille: for some reason, when I try and edit a story, it kicks me out to "coming soon"
[07:01] <Burgundavia> robitaille: I suspect a cookie issue
[07:01] <Burgundavia> it does it with every story
[07:01] <Burgundavia> I also went looking for you the other day
[07:02] <Burgundavia> Rinchen, I mean
[07:02] <Rinchen> hmm I think cookies might be it
[07:02] <Rinchen> let me do some quick checking
[07:02] <Burgundavia> ephy also occ. messes with cookies, so that might also be it
[07:03] <Rinchen> Burgundavia, is your ip <IP_ADDRESS> ?
[07:04] <Burgundavia> <IP_ADDRESS>
[07:04] <Rinchen> hmpf ok so that wasnt' it
[07:04] <Rinchen> lol I just looked that up. It's from Ukraine
[07:04] <Rinchen> Kiev in fact
[07:05] <Burgundavia> that might be vid ayer
[07:08] <Rinchen> I thought she's in india
[07:08] <robitaille> Ukraine?  I thought Vid was from India
[07:10] <Burgundavia> I know, but I have no idea how she connects to teh internet
[07:10] <Rinchen> yeah but 42 login attempts within 60 seconds would not be something vid would do :-)
[07:11] <Rinchen> if it happens again I'll block that ip
[07:13] <Burgundavia> right, probably not
[07:13] <Burgundavia> that looks boringly like a cracking attemtp
[07:19] <Burgundavia> am off, A is busy telling me to get moving


[04:18] <IdleOne> @mark zdot #ubuntu not sure if trolling or just clueless, does seem to have some attitude when speaking with others.
[04:55] <rscnt> im banned from ubuntu-offtopic
[04:55] <rscnt> there's something i can do?
[04:57] <rscnt> nothing?
[04:59] <Flannel> hi rscnt
[04:59] <rscnt> hi
[04:59] <rscnt> hru?
[05:00] <Myrtti> aTorque: what's Up?
[05:02] <rscnt> so i can do nothing about that?
[05:03] <Flannel> rscnt: I was reading the logs, sorry.
[05:03] <Flannel> rscnt: So, what do you think we should do about you and #ubuntu-offtopic?
[05:04] <rscnt> unban me?
[05:04] <rscnt> :(
[05:05] <Flannel> rscnt: That's a good initial course of action, but I hestitate, because I wonder if you'll wind up banned again real quick.
[05:05] <Flannel> rscnt: Do you know why you were kicked a few times from there?
[05:05] <rscnt> well i've learned my lesson
[05:05] <rscnt> and i dont remember why
[05:06] <rscnt> kicked?
[05:06] <rscnt> oh no just banned
[05:06] <Flannel> rscnt: How can you have learned a lesson if you don't remember what it was?
[05:06] <rscnt> i got the red card at first
[05:06] <rscnt> i know now, that i should shut up if the thing it's not with me
[05:07] <Flannel> What?
[05:07] <Flannel> I don't understand "if the thing its not with me"
[05:07] <rscnt> you know the discuss
[05:07] <rscnt> i was there chilling
[05:08] <rscnt> the somebody start screaming sh**t and the i go please stfo
[05:08] <rscnt> and he was like "screaming" more
[05:08] <rscnt> the i got banned
[05:08] <Flannel> rscnt: Is that how it happened?
[05:09] <rscnt> yeah, i was very fast
[05:09] <rscnt> i should care about what i write
[05:09] <rscnt> my first channel was archlinux-offtopic
[05:09] <rscnt> i tough every offtopic was like that
[05:09] <rscnt> you know a mess...
[05:10] <Flannel> rscnt: From what I'm looking at, it looks like you refused to stop using profanity, so you were kicked, kicked again, and then ultimately when you were again acting inappropriate, we forwarded you here to talk about it, which you weren't interested in at the time.
[05:10] <rscnt> filled with bad words
[05:10] <Flannel> That's fair.
[05:10] <rscnt> oh?
[05:10] <Flannel> Do you understand now that you're not able to do that in ubuntu channels?
[05:10] <rscnt> yes
[05:10] <Flannel> rscnt: Then why did you do it in #ubuntu a little while ago?
[05:11] <rscnt> ah?
[05:11] <rscnt> what i did on there?
[05:11] <rscnt> in*
[05:16] <Flannel> rscnt: 20:58 < rscnt> zdot: you're trolling, please gtfo.
[05:17] <rscnt> oh
[05:17] <rscnt> so i had a problem with that
[05:17] <rscnt> so it's me all the time
[05:17] <rscnt> shit
[05:17] <rscnt> oh sorry
[05:18] <Flannel> So, here's what we're going to do.
[05:18] <Flannel> rscnt: If you'd like, I will remove your ban in #ubuntu-offtopic.  But just be warned that this if this sort of behavior continues, you'll wind up banned again.
[05:19] <rscnt> of course
[05:19] <Flannel> So, if you're just going to go down that path, it might be prudent to wait and work on things.
[05:19] <Flannel> Before getting unbanned.
[05:19] <rscnt> you know a place where i can learn to mod my language?
[05:19] <rscnt> i've tried everything
[05:19] <Flannel> I don't, sorry.
[05:19] <rscnt> oh thanks
[05:20] <Flannel> So, I can either leave a note for all the other ops that you can get unbanned from -ot at your request, or unban you now.  It's up to you.
[05:27] <rscnt> now, if you
[05:40] <ext4> hi
[05:43] <ext4> hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
[05:43] <rscnt> ext4: hi
[05:43] <ext4> whats up
[05:44] <rscnt> are people supossed to talk like this in here?
[05:44] <Tm_T> hi ext4 how may we help you?
[05:44] <ext4> Tm_T, whats up!
[05:45] <Tm_T> ext4: a channel topic is up
[05:45] <ext4> show me the meaning of being lonely
[05:47] <ext4> hiiiiiiiiiiii
[05:50] <ext4> show me the meaning of being lonely
[05:59] <rscnt> you see
[06:00] <rscnt> why is he not getting banned?
[06:00] <Myrtti> where is he acting Up then?
[10:35] <AlanBell> @login
[10:35] <AlanBell> !no schedule is <reply> A schedule of Saucy Salamander (13.10) release milestones can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule the final release will be 17th October 2013
[13:15] <ikonia> hello lars__
[13:19] <ikonia> lars__: are you there ?
[14:13] <Pici> I'm going to close my eyes and press buttons now.
[17:24] <Konqi3> Hey Guys! My Name is John N


[10:47] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, critters and everything else
[16:00] <ChinnoDog> hi msalvatore
[16:02] <ChinnoDog> Anyone know of a cheap Linux SBC with a lot of memory? Probably needs at least 8gb ram and a 64-bit arm or x86 cpu.
[16:05] <ChinnoDog> Just found this: http://linuxgizmos.com/ringing-in-the-new-year-with-136-open-spec-linux-sbcs-under-200/
[16:10] <ChinnoDog> SBC with 8gb is expensive. 4gb looks like the sweet spot where you get a lot of memory for fairly low cost.
[16:20] <ChinnoDog> Pi4 and Rock64 seem to be where it is at. Maybe big enough with memory compression for my use case.
[16:35] <msalvatore> hi ChinnoDog
[16:37] <msalvatore> I could be wrong, but I think they may have a hard time physically fitting 8gb of ram on the smaller boards.
[16:37] <msalvatore> what's your use case?
[16:46] <msalvatore> i guess there are 16gb boards, so I'm probably wrong about the physical limitation. It may depend what else is on the board. IDK
[18:24] <ChinnoDog> msalvatore: I don't think it is a physical limitation. Probably just not a common use case. I am considering building a network appliance as a proof of concept but the software it requires is memory heavy.
[18:26] <ChinnoDog> I can probably break it into smaller pieces that will fit into 4gb and/or dedupe and compress memory and/or scale it down to use less resources.
[18:27] <msalvatore> ChinnoDog: if you use docker and somehow work in a blockchain, you can probably get a VC to fund it.
[18:50] <ChinnoDog> It will need docker but I doubt there is a use for blockchain.
[19:36] <pleia2> msalvatore: haha
[20:51] <waltman> Drop-in bitcoin mining containers!
[21:10] <ChinnoDog> Not even worth it without hardware acceleration and your own power plant.
[21:14] <waltman> Nonsense! Build an array of cheap lower power miners out of raspberry pis!
[21:18] <ChinnoDog> Pretty sure the ₿/$ will be low if not negative because of the mining farms in China.


[02:55] <candoman> I've installed 10.04 AMD64 on an Intel core i3 laptop inside of Win7....on boot, Ubuntu hangs....any known issues?


[06:58] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[06:58] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 27 Jun 07:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 30 Jun 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Jul 06:00: Technical Board | 06 Jul 06:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jul 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[03:14] <jenda> @schedule Prague
[03:14] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 29 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 04 Jul 22:00: Technical Board | 05 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team


[02:47] <ryebot> I keep getting "ERROR invalid entity name or password" when I try to run `juju debug-log`, not sure how to get rid of it - any tips?
[02:47] <ryebot> I've tried a juju logout/back in and rebooting, but no luck.
[02:48] <ryebot> this is on juju2
[02:54] <ryebot> also looked in the /var/log/juju logs in machine-0; nothing there either
[03:49] <ryebot> making a new controller fixed it
[05:51] <tx> Hey guys, I'm trying to bootstrap openstack from a fresh ubuntu 16.04 LTS install, it has been on the initializing model stage for about an hour now
[08:23] <Dirler> Hi All. If I have kvm machines listed in “virsh list” but not listed in “juju status” for kvm environment, Can I add such machines in juju kvm environment?
[09:10] <jamespage> gnuoy, morning
[09:10] <jamespage> can you take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318641/
[09:10] <jamespage> and
[09:10] <jamespage> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318612/
[09:14] <gnuoy> sure
[09:38] <jamespage> gnuoy, and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319138/ :-)
[10:31] <jamespage> gnuoy, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319172/ please (stable counterpart to the one before)
[10:32] <jamespage> gnuoy, ta
[11:14] <gahan> how do I force cancelling of activity in landscape? 'Add hardware' is hanging on 'Add jujue machine...' for 24 hours now.
[11:58] <magicaltrout> is it acceptable to crackout the beers when you are at work with the cricket on the TV and everyone in the stadium is drinking?
[12:55] <ryebot> juju2 - how do I remove a service that has a unit in an "agent is lost, sorry!" state?
[12:57] <tvansteenburgh> ryebot: you could try remove-machine
[12:58] <ryebot> tvansteenburgh: excellent, thanks, I'll give that a shot
[13:37] <jamespage> gnuoy, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318611/ and then I'll push master and stable branches to the charm store...
[13:43] <lazyPower> kjackal - if you have the spare cycles, this is a pretty small review https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-filebeat/pull/8
[13:49] <kjackal> I will do it in a moment lazyPower
[13:49] <lazyPower> ta
[13:49] <kjackal> jcastro ?
[13:50] <kjackal> jcastro, I hear we have an issue with the pluin?
[13:59] <jcastro> kjackal: yeah!
[13:59] <jcastro> let me refire up the bundle, give me a moment
[14:00] <jcastro> https://jujucharms.com/u/bigdata-dev/apache-processing-spark/
[14:00] <jcastro> this is the bundle I am trying
[14:00] <jcastro> hmm, issues with the store today?
[14:00] <kjackal> yes, it seems so...
[14:01] <kjackal> in any case, which bundle are you deploying, jcastro? Can you show me the .yaml you are deploying?
[14:01] <jcastro> hah no, I was deploying right from the store
[14:01] <jcastro> yikes
[14:02] <kjackal> Ah, that might be an issue, we havent published the charms yet, so the referenced ones might to be working
[14:02] <kjackal> *not
[14:08] <kjackal> jcastro, I guess you are deploying this: https://jujucharms.com/u/bigdata-dev/apache-processing-spark/bundle/1
[14:08] <jcastro> yep
[14:09] <jcastro> I needed a bundle that used beats so I could write about it, and cory recommended this one
[14:09] <jcastro> but I'm not wedded to any specific bundle, I just need to be able to deploy a workload, the post itself is about how to use beats to get metrics from a workload
[14:09] <kjackal> so the bundle.yaml there is suposed to use the production charm: cs:trusty/apache-spark)
[14:10] <kjackal> This yaml is the one we want https://api.jujucharms.com/charmstore/v5/~bigdata-dev/bundle/apache-processing-spark-1/archive/bundle-dev.yaml
[14:10] <jcastro> yep, I see that
[14:10] <jcastro> oh ok, so deploy the -dev bundle instead is what you're saying?
[14:10] <kjackal> Yes, this should work
[14:11] <kjackal> I wonder if there is a way to specify the yaml within the bundle when you reference the bundle from the store?
[14:11] <jcastro> not yet
[14:11] <jcastro> but that's fine
[14:12] <jcastro> though next time you guys publish please fill out the metadata url's so I can click through to the code, etc.
[14:12] <jcastro> right now "view code" is broken, etc. on the charm store page
[14:12] <jcastro> oh, nevermind, you did fill it out
[14:12] <jcastro> it's just "Home" and not "view code" on the page.
[14:22] <kjackal> lazyPower, the patch looks good. Merged!
[14:22] <lazyPower> ta kjackal!
[14:56] <suchvenu> Hello
[14:59] <suchvenu> I have a query regarding naming the relation in  ibm-db2 charm. The relation name is "db2" defined in metadatafile as
[14:59] <suchvenu> provides:  db:   interface: db2
[14:59] <suchvenu> sorry the relation name is "db"
[15:00] <jcastro> lazyPower: I think I found a bug in ~containers/kibana
[15:00] <jcastro> unit-kibana-0: 2016-05-20 14:55:26 INFO unit.kibana/0.install logger.go:40 groupadd: group 'kibana' already exists
[15:00] <jcastro> that causes the install hook to fail
[15:00] <suchvenu> Is this name ok ? Or should it be renamed to some other name as db2-db or so ?
[15:00] <lazyPower> ah yeah
[15:01] <lazyPower> there's a patch to fix this, its known
[15:01] <jcastro> ack, thanks
[15:01] <jcastro> is this the promulgated charm or is that somewhere else?
[15:02] <lazyPower> negative, the promulgated charm is missing the dashboard action
[15:02] <jcastro> hmm, it sucks that the page doesn't make it obvious which is the promulgated charm
[15:02] <jcastro> other than looking at the URL I mean
[15:02] <lazyPower> when we were riffing a couple weeks ago, i've delayed pushing the updates until i can get the config option to deploy *with* a dashboard
[15:02] <lazyPower> and still need to trim the fat on the demonstration boards
[15:02] <suchvenu> I see the same relation name used by mysql charm. So will it cause confusion, when both are used in any bundle ?
[15:03] <lazyPower> suchvenu - the relation-name is arbitrary. The interface is the important part of that equation.
[15:03] <suchvenu> when the states of the interface are used in the reactive layer
[15:03] <suchvenu> the states from the db2 interface would be like db.available, db.ready etc
[15:04] <lazyPower> well, interestingly enough - do you use both mysql as well as db2 in the same charm? and is this a common deployment formation?
[15:04] <lazyPower> sorry, model formation
[15:04] <suchvenu> i am not using both in any of the charm as of now
[15:05] <suchvenu> I just told an example
[15:05] <lazyPower> jcastro - i'm in a lull with other things i have in flight, i can spend some time on that today. Do you mind being my primary stakeholder?  The onus of using those states and how its named is up to the charm author consuming DB2
[15:05] <jcastro> I can't blog about beats without a dashboard, heh
[15:05] <lazyPower> ok, i'll fold in that patch and get you a revised dashboard
[15:06] <suchvenu> does the relation name need to be unique so that the states also remain unique ?
[15:06] <jcastro> what's the tldr difference between this kibana and the promulgated one?
[15:06] <lazyPower> the dashboard loader action and test updates so it actually passes and flex's the deployment
[15:08] <suchvenu> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/16522846/
[15:08] <suchvenu> a decorater like this , is fine  ?
[15:08] <jcastro> https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/jujucharms.com/issues/274
[15:10] <lazyPower> suchvenu - That looks fine, but without context its hard to say
[15:11] <lazyPower> suchvenu - you can mitigate any name collisions by setting the mysql database relation to something other than db when you add it ot metadata, like "mysql-db" or "mdb" or "notibmdb2"
[15:12] <suchvenu> I am thinking of the naming convention for the relation name . I have used db as the relation and if some other database (other than db2) also uses the same relation name , will it cause any issues
[15:13] <suchvenu> you mean to say, the consumer charm of db2 or mysql can create a specific relation name as db2-db or msql-db and so it will not have issues ?
[15:13] <lazyPower> correct
[15:13] <suchvenu> ok
[15:13] <suchvenu> Thanks lazyPower
[15:14] <lazyPower> relation-names are arbitrary. As the charm author consuming the interface, you define what that nomenclature is, and are responsible for the associated states.
[15:14] <lazyPower> np happy to help suchvenu
[15:14] <suchvenu> :)
[15:29] <cory_fu> kwmonroe, kjackal: I submit https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-apache-bigtop-base/pull/7 and https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-hadoop-datanode/pull/1 for your consideration
[15:31] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Also, looks like we don't have to mess around with the bzr-owner hack any more: https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/jujucharms.com/issues/245#event-666466300
[15:32] <kwmonroe> woohoo!  nice cory_fu
[15:34] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: for the dn PR, do you feel ok by returning from start_datanode with the status set as "starting datanode"?
[15:34] <kwmonroe> i'm talking about if/when start_datanode hits the timeout and returns, of course
[15:34] <cory_fu> Oh, no, I suppose not
[15:34] <cory_fu> Good catch
[15:37] <magicaltrout> random question big data folk: https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-hadoop-client doesn't actually provide me with a hadoop executable
[15:38] <magicaltrout> I need my charm to do something like: hadoop jar $THRAX/bin/thrax.jar
[15:39] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Updated.  Though, I should hope that the status handling in the slave charm would actually override it
[15:41] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: Right.  Maybe we need to update the README.  The way that is intended to work is that you use layer:hadoop-client as a base layer, and then you connect it to a hadoop-plugin charm (e.g., https://jujucharms.com/hadoop-plugin/ or the older https://jujucharms.com/apache-hadoop-plugin/ for the non-Bigtop charms)
[15:41] <bdx> openstack-charmers: will there be a charm rev'ing again before 16.07 ?
[15:41] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: The plugin is what provides the Hadoop libraries, and it ensures you get the correct libraries for the particular deployment of Hadoop to which you are connecting
[15:42] <magicaltrout> yeah cory_fu when I connect the plugin to my layer:hadoop-client enabled charm it all works
[15:42] <magicaltrout> but "which hadoop" is empty and I can't figure out what its doing :)
[15:42] <magicaltrout> I thought it main role was to provide config information over the interface
[15:42] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: Can you give me a pastebin of your `juju status --format=tabular`?
[15:43] <cory_fu> It provides config info over the interface but also installs the  client libs (the plugin; the client just manages the plugin relation for you to make it a bit easier)
[15:43] <magicaltrout> hmm
[15:43] <magicaltrout> i tried that yesterday and got zip
[15:43] <magicaltrout> give me 5 mins to spin up my charm and I'll get back to you
[15:44] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: Are you deploying the older apache-hadoop-X charms, or the newer Bigtop charms?
[15:44] <magicaltrout> the older stuff
[15:44] <cory_fu> Ok
[15:44] <magicaltrout>  juju deploy cs:bundle/apache-processing-mapreduce-0
[15:44] <cory_fu> The status messages ought to tell you what, if anything is missing, and if they all say ready then you should have the hadoop bin
[15:44] <magicaltrout> that one to be exact
[15:45] <magicaltrout> all my status flags were green
[15:45] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: One question.  Are you trying to run the Hadoop binary from inside charm code?  There is environment data that doesn't seem to get populated in the hook context for whatever reason, so it requires a bit of additional work.
[15:46] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: both PRs lgtm.  merged.
[15:46] <magicaltrout> nope cory_fu juju ssh'd in
[15:46] <cory_fu> Odd
[15:46] <cory_fu> That should definitely work
[15:47] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Shall we do a JBD release, charm builds and publishes, and update the Bigtop PR?
[15:48] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Also, would you consider this a bugfix release for JBD or a minor feature release?
[15:48] <cory_fu> I'm inclined to go with bugfix
[15:54] <kwmonroe> yeah cory_fu, i've got jbd 7.1.2 building now
[16:32] <Brochacho> cholcombe: Is there anyway to ignore ceph config parsing errors?
[16:33] <cholcombe> Brochacho, yeah put a newline at the end of the file.  We have a patch going in to fix that
[16:36] <Brochacho> cholcombe: Thanks! Was driving me nuts, doesn't seem there's an option to silence that?
[16:36] <cholcombe> Brochacho, no and ceph is really bitchy about it
[16:36] <cholcombe> i thought about submitting a patch to ceph because it's so annoying haha
[16:39] <Brochacho> cholcombe: dang, also seems to be no way to avoid that 'dumped all in format json'?
[16:39] <cholcombe> Brochacho, when you say --format=json is it appending something to stdout?
[16:43] <Brochacho> cholcombe: One sec
[16:44] <Brochacho> cholcombe: No, wasn't grabbing stdout correctly -_-
[16:44] <cholcombe> ah ok haha
[18:04] <magicaltrout> i'm talking $hit cory_fu
[18:04] <magicaltrout> I suspect i probably sshd in yesterday before the path was set
[18:04] <magicaltrout> and never noticed
[18:04] <cory_fu> :)  Glad it's working for you
[18:05] <magicaltrout> well you'll have a bunch of happy linguists now who can build translation models on proper infrastructure and not standalone hadoop on their laptops
[18:19] <cory_fu> Awesome.  :)
[18:19] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Do you use Chrome?
[18:27] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Well, anyway.  You chastising me about approving the PR with trailing whitespace made me feel really bad, so I made this: https://github.com/johnsca/github-trailing-whitespace
[18:30] <lazyPower> cory_fu https://twitter.com/lazypower/status/733726628828852224
[18:31] <cory_fu> lazyPower: ha.
[18:31] <cory_fu> If I'd known you were going to tweet it, I would have ponied up the $5 to publish it to the Chrome Web Store
[18:47] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: sometimes i wonder what greatness you could achieve if i didn't bug you about petty stuff.
[18:47] <kwmonroe> too bad we'll never know
[18:47] <cory_fu> heh
[19:20] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: i literally think you're great.  i just spent the afternoon loading all kinds of unpacked extensions and now chrome works like firefox... in that it's mostly broken.
[19:20] <cory_fu> lol
[19:20] <cory_fu> What other unpacked extensions did you load?
[19:21] <kwmonroe> mostly stuff i wrote
[19:22] <kwmonroe> but let's not dwell on the past.  i have a bundle update for bigtop.  can you teach me git real quick so i can update pr 108?
[19:22] <lazyPower> hahaha
[19:22] <lazyPower> i can tell its Friday
[19:22] <kwmonroe> https://appear.in/kevin-does-git
[19:23] <magicaltrout> git commit -a -m "mega commit"
[19:24] <magicaltrout> git push -f
[19:24] <magicaltrout> nuke it all!
[19:24] <kwmonroe> magicaltrout: join the appear.in!
[19:25] <lazyPower> magicaltrout - thats fun when it pipelines into prod on friday at 4:59pm
[19:25] <kwmonroe> being that it's 2:25pm, i'm not that concerned
[19:28] <magicaltrout> i'm drinking beer and writing code for NASA at 8:30pm
[19:28] <magicaltrout> what could possibly go wrong?
[19:28] <magicaltrout> git push -f
[19:28] <magicaltrout> oooh sugar
[20:03] <lazyPower> jcastro cory_fu  - i have a branch ready which should squash the last issues with kibana and bring this up to spec for CWR efforts - https://code.launchpad.net/~lazypower/charms/trusty/kibana/add-dashboard-loader-action/+merge/295359
[20:03] <lazyPower> not sure if you want to poke this now or leave it, but i thought I would ping with it regardless
[20:57] <gennadiy> hello everyone, can we deploy local charms to juju2 ? i try to use "juju deploy local:trusty/sipp" but got error "unknown schema for charm URL "local:trusty/sipp""
[20:59] <tvansteenburgh> gennadiy: just give it a path
[20:59] <magicaltrout> gennadiy:  juju deploy --repository=/home/bugg/charms local:trusty/joshua-full joshua-full
[21:00] <gennadiy> a lot of changes in version 2 :) thanks
[21:00] <magicaltrout> bit of that
[21:00] <tvansteenburgh> magicaltrout: that's juju1
[21:01] <tvansteenburgh> gennadiy: all the details at `juju help deploy`
[21:02] <magicaltrout> aww tvansteenburgh whatever
[21:02] <marcoceppi> gennadiy magicaltrout `juju deploy /home/bugg/charms/trusty/joshua-full` is all you need
[21:02] <magicaltrout>
[21:02] <magicaltrout> bugg@tomsdevbox:~$ juju --version
[21:02] <magicaltrout> 2.0-beta4-xenial-amd64
[21:03] <marcoceppi> magicaltrout: beta7 is the latest ;)
[21:03] <magicaltrout> i'm just a bit slow to update :P
[21:03] <magicaltrout> marcoceppi: i get scared of updating these days :P
[21:05] <marcoceppi> magicaltrout: I understand, we're getting close to RC though! when we get that it'd be nice ot have you an dothers update to help shake the tree
[21:05] <magicaltrout> i'm only messing marcoceppi its just a dev environment, i'm not sure why its stuck on beta4, must come from a random ppa or something
[21:06] <marcoceppi> magicaltrout: probably, there were package renames and such for 2.0
[21:06] <arosales> kwmonroe: cory_fu are https://jujucharms.com/u/bigdata-dev/apache-processing-mapreduce/bundle/2 and https://jujucharms.com/u/bigdata-dev/apache-processing-spark/bundle/1 the latest or have these been promulagated?
[21:23] <cory_fu> arosales: Sorry, those are the most recent, yes
[21:30] <gennadiy> i use local env with lxd how to run machines in privileged mode? i need to change "ulimit -n"
[21:32] <gennadiy> maybe i can provide lxd profile for juju
[21:34] <arosales> cory_fu: oh need to apologize, just making sure I found  / using the current ones
[22:42] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: You still around?
[22:44] <arosales> kwmonroe: if your still around
[22:44] <arosales> kwmonroe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16538524/
[22:44] <arosales> waiting on plugin :-(
[22:45] <arosales> cory_fu: admcleod  ^
[22:45] <cory_fu> arosales: Hrm.  I think we had a fix for that, and I thought kjackal published it to bd-dev earlier today
[22:46] <cory_fu> arosales: Can you give me the [Services] section to see what charm revs you're  using?
[22:46] <arosales> ya, seems it cropped back up or didn't make to dev branch
[22:46] <cory_fu> arosales: I think the charm may have been updated but the bundle missed
[22:46] <arosales> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16538576/
[22:47] <cory_fu> arosales: You're not even using the bd-dev versions of the charms
[22:48] <cory_fu> The main bundle.yaml must be pointing to the prod charms, which makes sense, but doesn't help for demo / testing
[22:49] <cory_fu> arosales: Do you need a fix asap?
[22:50] <arosales> cory_fu: just doing a lightning talk, but I can gloss over that as I am almost up
[22:50] <arosales> cory_fu: should I have been using a different bundle?
[22:51] <cory_fu> arosales: If you had time, I'd say `juju upgrade-charm --switch spark cs:~bigdata-dev/trusty/apache-spark` but it sounds like that would be risky and too close to the wire
[22:51]  * arosales will try it :-)
[22:51] <magicaltrout> go on arosales live life on the edge!
[22:52] <arosales> error: invalid service name "cs:~bigdata-dev/trusty/apache-spark"
[22:52] <cory_fu> arosales: the bundle-dev.yaml in that bundle should have worked, but we need to get those charms promulgated and sorted.  We switched focus all on to bigtop and they got left behind
[22:52] <cory_fu> arosales: My args were backwards
[22:53] <arosales> magicaltrout: keeps things exciting
[22:53] <magicaltrout> indeed
[22:53]  * arosales waves to magicaltrout
[22:53] <cory_fu> juju upgrade-charm cs:~bigdata-dev/trusty/apache-spark spark
[22:53] <cory_fu> maybe
[22:53] <cory_fu> I forgot the --switch
[22:53] <arosales> error: unrecognized args: ["spark"]
[22:53] <cory_fu> -_-
[22:53] <cory_fu> Does anyone here remember the syntax for upgrade-charm --switch?  :p
[22:54] <cory_fu> Also, does that even still work in 2.0?
[22:54] <magicaltrout> the way things change i barely get through deploying with out doing juju help commands  :P
[22:55] <cory_fu> juju upgrade-charm spark --switch cs:~bigdata-dev/trusty/apache-spark
[22:55] <cory_fu> arosales: ^
[22:55]  * arosales reading help
[22:55] <arosales> ya that looks better
[22:55] <arosales> cory_fu: thanks
[22:56]  * cory_fu sits back and watches arosales's lightning talk burn.
[22:56] <arosales> lol
[22:56] <cory_fu> Er, I mean, good luck!
[22:56]  * kwmonroe has much faith
[22:56] <arosales> I only have 39 machines running
[22:56] <arosales> what could go wrong
[22:56] <cory_fu> lol
[22:56] <arosales> kube, swarm, spark, and 2 hadoop clusters
[22:57]  * arosales had to make another ec2 support request to up limits
[22:58] <kwmonroe> arosales: up from 50?!?!
[22:58] <arosales> kwmonroe: well for us-west-2 as us-east-1 errored out on provisioning
[22:59] <kwmonroe> azure will go until your wallet empties without all this "limit" nonsense
[23:00]  * magicaltrout makes a note not to use azure
[23:00] <kwmonroe> :)
[23:01] <arosales> the upgrade worked, but I lost ha on spark
[23:01] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: The reason I pinged you, btw, is I wanted to know where to file bugs against layer:ibm-base
[23:02] <cory_fu> >_<
[23:02] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: file them against<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[23:02] <cory_fu> arosales: Did you lose HA, or did the status message just change?  I think it reports it slightly differently
[23:02] <cory_fu> arosales: Can you give me the new status?
[23:02] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: ha
[23:03] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: Also, did you know that Monday is a holiday?  I didn't.
[23:03] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: a holiday for who(m)?
[23:03] <arosales> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16538972/
[23:03] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: All of the US
[23:03] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: It's Memorial Day
[23:04] <kwmonroe> holy crap, is it May already?!?!
[23:04] <cory_fu> Indeed.  It's almost my birthday, even.  :p
[23:04] <cory_fu> arosales: "Fetching resources" isn't the most helpful status message
[23:05] <cory_fu> arosales: I think the status message may no longer include "HA" but it should mention which is master
[23:05] <arosales> sorry wrong buffer
[23:05] <arosales> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16539022/
[23:06] <arosales> workload status = standalone
[23:06] <kwmonroe> arosales: that looks legit
[23:06] <cory_fu> arosales: Yep.  The one that says (standalone - master) means that it is in HA
[23:06] <kwmonroe> you're in 'standalone' mode, which means any of those can take over at any moment
[23:06] <arosales> ah yes, I was looking at unit 1
[23:06] <arosales> unit 0 = Ready (standalone - master)
[23:07] <arosales> good stuff
[23:07] <magicaltrout> midnight rolled around, it is my birthday, i beat you cory_fu :P
[23:07] <arosales> Happy Birthday magicaltrout !
[23:07] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: But for reals, clicking "Bugs" on https://code.launchpad.net/~ibmcharmers/layer-ibm-base/trunk goes to a 404
[23:07] <magicaltrout> meh
[23:07] <kwmonroe> happy bday magicaltrout!!!
[23:08] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: Really?!?  Happy birthday!!!!!
[23:08] <magicaltrout> i got my age wrong earlier
[23:08] <magicaltrout> i'm over it
[23:08] <arosales> happy early birthday cory_fu
[23:08] <kwmonroe> cory_fu: please file a bug re: the bug url.  i'll get to it monday.
[23:09] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: I do that all the time.  Actually, my health insurance had my birth year as 1995, and I was super excited to have de-aged until they fixed the glitch
[23:09] <cory_fu> kwmonroe: ha
[23:09] <cory_fu> arosales: :)  Thanks
[23:09] <arosales> 1995, wow
[23:09] <magicaltrout> hehe
[23:09] <magicaltrout> people born in the 90's and 2000's depress me
[23:10] <arosales> cory_fu: should have quickly filled for life insurance
[23:10] <arosales> pretty amazing how well upgrade charm worked
[23:10] <arosales> and the operational knowledge distilled in those charms
[23:11] <cory_fu> arosales: In case you didn't notice (not at all because I forgot to put it in until just now), I asked for next Friday off for my (belated) birthday.  ;)
[23:11] <arosales> pretty amazing. On one controller I have 5 models with 40 machines with completly functioning kubernetes, swarm, spark cluster, hadoop cluster (ha), and hadoop cluster (bigtop)
[23:12] <arosales> cory_fu: most def you should take Friday off
[23:12] <arosales> magicaltrout: you too :-)
[23:12] <magicaltrout> aww thanks arosales
[23:12] <cory_fu> arosales: Well, upgrade-charm --switch is a little duplicitous, considering it changes the entire charm out from under the service.  But Spark is pretty resilient to being switched out, as long as jobs aren't actively running in standalone mode.
[23:12] <kwmonroe> hehe, magicaltrout, i will give you next thursday off too.  keep being great.
[23:13] <arosales> kwmonroe: is soo generous
[23:13] <magicaltrout> hehe
[23:13] <arosales> cory_fu: ya upgrade implies you are already upgrading
[23:13] <magicaltrout> i get tomorrow off.....
[23:13] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: I was sad to realize I didn't quite make it under the wire to get hugs if I were born in the 80's
[23:13] <arosales> ha, but only tomorrow
[23:14] <magicaltrout> yeah sunday the mrs gets her mum day... so i'm lumped with the kids
[23:14] <kwmonroe> magicaltrout: are you still coding for nasa?  i feel like i don't want my rovers coded by you at this time of night.
[23:14] <magicaltrout> thats work... right?
[23:15] <arosales> #daddyduty
[23:15] <magicaltrout> i am kwmonroe..... currently wondering why requirejs hates me so much :)
[23:15] <arosales> magicaltrout: indeed it is
[23:15] <magicaltrout> yeah thought so
[23:15] <magicaltrout> so i get 1 day off
[23:15] <kwmonroe> not because you're not a great coder, mind you, but because i fear your maliciousness when you don't get cake for your birthday.
[23:15] <magicaltrout> oh well, better than none
[23:15] <magicaltrout> die rover! die!!!!
[23:16] <arosales> magicaltrout: you need another jubilee year
[23:16] <cory_fu> magicaltrout: Or worse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI
[23:16] <kwmonroe> excactly
[23:17] <magicaltrout> lol
[23:17] <kwmonroe> aight arosales, i have to bid you farewell and good luck.  i'm sure the LT will go great because juju is frickin amazing.  lmk how you fare.  be well all!
[23:17] <arosales> kwmonroe: have a good long weekend
[23:17] <magicaltrout> cya
[23:18] <arosales> thanks for the last minute help here
[23:18] <cory_fu> arosales: np.  Are you up already for your lightning talk?   Really must go, or my wife will murder me.  Have a good weekend, all!
[23:22]  * cory_fu disconnects from the Matrix.
[23:22] <cory_fu> Oh, and happy birthday again, magicaltrout!
[23:22] <arosales> cory_fu: have a good weekend
[23:22] <magicaltrout> thanks....
[23:25] <arosales> juju spoils one. ya I can spin up 5 clusters across 40 machines 1 hour before my talk :-)
[23:26] <magicaltrout> depends if you write the charms yourself or not.... if you use the lovely bigdata dev charms thats probably true ;)
[23:28]  * arosales would do the same with saiku :-)


[22:31] <pmatulis> d-i partman/early_command string wget -O /tmp/make_raid.sh http://some_host/scripts/make_raid.sh && sh /tmp/make_raid.sh
[22:31] <pmatulis> CarlFK: should this work? ↑
[22:32] <CarlFK> pmatulis: not sure about sh
[22:32] <CarlFK> and I wold add a cd like this:
[22:34] <CarlFK> d-i partman/early_command string cd /tmp &&  wget http://some_host/scripts/make_raid.sh && sh /tmp/make_raid.sh
[23:28] <pmatulis> CarlFK: thanks, that got me further.  i need to script sgdisk now
[23:29] <CarlFK> pmatulis: also, look into $url
[23:29]  * CarlFK looks at mine...
[23:29] <pmatulis> CarlFK: what url?
[23:30] <CarlFK> d-i preseed/early_command string cd /tmp && wget http://$url/ec/early_command.sh
[23:31] <pmatulis> not sure where you're going with that
[23:31] <CarlFK> in default I have append initrd=ubuntu/saucy/i386/initrd.gz root=/dev/rd/0 rw auto=true netcfg/wireless_wep= interface=auto hostname= DEBCONF_DEBUG=5 url=g2a
[23:31] <CarlFK> so that is the single place I define the name of the server I go back to
[23:32] <pmatulis> oh
[23:32] <CarlFK> and I think it is used for something else...
[23:32] <pmatulis> i'm not pxe booting but maybe i could use it
[23:33] <CarlFK> oh right.. preseed file is loaded from $url/d-i/$release/preseed.cfg


[02:05] <Pici> I dont understand why people continue to treat #ubuntu+1 like a chat channel and get pissy when we ask them to stop, but never join -offtopic?
[02:06] <Pici> s/?/./
[02:24] <ikonia> bugabundo again
[02:24] <ikonia> ?
[02:24] <ikonia> it is
[02:24] <ikonia> fine, I'm muting him
[02:24] <ikonia> he's been warned enough
[02:24] <ikonia> and he "knew" it was offtopic
[02:27] <ikonia> BUGabundo: thanks for joining
[02:27] <BUGabundo> np ikonia
[02:27] <BUGabundo> link again?
[02:27] <BUGabundo> yeah I should know better
[02:28] <BUGabundo> sorry
[02:28] <ikonia> it's beyond that now
[02:28] <ikonia> how many times have you been asked
[02:28] <ikonia> I've lost count
[02:28] <ikonia> you KNOW you're doing it, that's what's starting to become insulting
[02:28] <BUGabundo> no it not
[02:28] <ikonia> it is
[02:28] <BUGabundo> I don't do it to make ppl andry
[02:28] <ikonia> you keep been given more time to stop it
[02:29] <ikonia> and you keep throwing it back by doing it and know you're doing it
[02:29] <BUGabundo> I'm just talking to some other friends on the #
[02:29] <ikonia> it's not the right channel - and you know it
[02:29] <BUGabundo> but its where my bets buds are
[02:29] <ikonia> it doesn't matter
[02:29] <BUGabundo> but you are right
[02:29] <BUGabundo> no the smarter thing to do
[02:29] <ikonia> I know I'm right - you know you're right, you've been asked to stop, you've been told to stop ?
[02:29] <ikonia> what's next?
[02:29] <Pici> Its not a discussion channel. You're free to create your own channel or join #ubuntu-offtopic
[02:30] <BUGabundo> but it has been so calm this week due to uds
[02:30] <ikonia> it doesn't matter
[02:30] <ikonia> and you've been told that
[02:30] <BUGabundo> I'm not the only one to ask to relax a bit in there
[02:30] <ikonia> it doesn't matter
[02:30] <ikonia> this has been made clear to you many times before
[02:31] <ikonia> I'm struggling to know how to get this through to you ?
[02:31] <BUGabundo> me too
[02:31] <BUGabundo> believe me
[02:32] <ikonia> I'm more frustrated that you are now an ubuntu member and acting under an ubuntu cloak yet constantly disrespecting the rules
[02:32] <BUGabundo> I have on intention on bending the rules
[02:32] <ikonia> yet you keep doing it time after time
[02:32] <BUGabundo> I just tend to go OT easy enough
[02:32] <BUGabundo> but was always I try to be better
[02:32] <ikonia> I think you should take a break from the channel to be honest
[02:32] <ikonia> you don't seem to respond to other requests,
[02:32] <BUGabundo> I don't but you have the power over that
[02:33] <BUGabundo> sure I do...
[02:33] <BUGabundo> I even call other ppl attention to OT
[02:33] <ikonia> you don't - or this conversation would not happen
[02:33] <BUGabundo> when they start it
[02:33] <BUGabundo> and many time I take it other place
[02:33] <ikonia> most of the time you don't
[02:34] <BUGabundo> never counted them
[02:34] <ikonia> I suggest you take a week out of the channel to think about how you can best control yourself
[02:34] <BUGabundo> you should know I try to be a nice guy
[02:34] <BUGabundo> I just like to talk...
[02:34] <ikonia> everyone slips up - so no-one is picking up on that, but you do it persistantly
[02:34] <BUGabundo> but again that's not the place for it
[02:34] <BUGabundo> a week??
[02:34] <BUGabundo> after UDS?
[02:34] <ikonia> yes
[02:34] <ikonia> yes
[02:34] <BUGabundo> that's just mean to me
[02:34] <ikonia> no
[02:35] <ikonia> thats taking time to consider how you can stop persistantly flaunting the rules of the channel
[02:35] <BUGabundo> please don't
[02:35] <BUGabundo> I can be better
[02:35] <ikonia> you've been given requests, then warnings, so now I feel time to reflect is the best approach
[02:36] <BUGabundo> can't I be put on trial basis, after this call for attention ?
[02:36] <ikonia> you've been on multiple trial situations
[02:36] <ikonia> you keep doing it - hence why you're here
[02:36] <ikonia> again
[02:36] <BUGabundo> and so many other users there
[02:36] <ikonia> so ?
[02:36] <BUGabundo> its not like its just me
[02:36] <ikonia> you're responsible for your own behaviour
[02:36] <BUGabundo> I know
[02:36] <ikonia> no - it's not just you, but others tend to stop when prompted
[02:37] <BUGabundo> so do I
[02:37] <ikonia> no
[02:37] <ikonia> you stop for a short period and start up - and we have the conversation again
[02:37] <ikonia> so lets take a week out of the channel to consider how you can better control yourself and learn where the other chat channels are
[02:38] <ikonia> I am genuinly sorry to push this like this as I do appreciate how keen you are, but I feel this is the only way to get your attention to control yourself
[02:39] <ikonia> drop back in a week's time, and we'll chat about this again futher
[02:39] <BUGabundo> I don't... but I can show proof of that
[02:39] <ikonia> this is not up for debate as I can show proof that you have been persistantly warned by multiple operators and are still doing it
[02:42] <BUGabundo> bye
[02:42] <ikonia> BUGabundo: thanks for joining when requested, it's appreciated, and I should have checked you where active before forwarding you here
[02:42] <BUGabundo> np
[02:42] <BUGabundo> I are to accostum to ppl being remoted connect
[02:42] <ikonia> ok, thank you
[02:42] <BUGabundo> I on the other hand am here, when my nick is there
[02:43] <BUGabundo> once again
[02:43] <BUGabundo> see you in a few (long) days
[02:43] <ikonia> yup
[02:43] <BUGabundo> if by any change decide to shorten it, let me know
[02:43] <ikonia> ok
[02:43]  * BUGabundo removing autojoin
[02:44] <ikonia> you can leave the autojoin in place - it's a ban not a forward so won't cause any problem
[02:44] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu+1 BUGabundo again offtopic - run out of warnings banned for a week to think it over anyone is free to remove sooner if they feel he's grasped that it's not his chat channel
[05:32] <elky> he really doesnt know how to listen to other people, does he...
[06:04]  * genii checks to see if more coffee needs to be made
[07:03]  * genii sips
[08:50] <jussi01> mrgh... head hurts...
[08:50] <Myrtti> too much sports drink?
[08:50] <Myrtti> :-D
[08:50] <jussi01> Myrtti: yeah...
[08:51] <Myrtti> JUSSI CHEER UP! SUN SHINES AND LIFE IS MERRY!
[08:51] <jussi01> sports drink *g*
[08:51] <jussi01> shush you
[08:51]  * Myrtti toots a horn by jussi01s ear
[08:51] <Myrtti> *TOOOOOOOT*
[08:51] <jussi01> even thinking about it hurts...
[08:51] <Myrtti> I knew it ^____^
[08:52]  * Myrtti gives jussi01 a pint of coffee and another of bilberry soup and few painkillers
[08:52] <Myrtti> I should reinstall my other laptop
[08:52] <Myrtti> thing is being silly on me
[09:25] <jussi01> hrm, that was short hangover.... *hugs* hangover cure :)
[09:25] <Myrtti> bilberry soup ♥
[12:27] <Myrtti> I want to slap snowkitty
[12:27] <bazhang> yeap
[13:09] <jussi01> yay for annoying guy in -ot...
[13:09] <bazhang> and in #u
 I'm using Linux Mint 6, ubuntu/debian variant :>
[13:16] <jussi01> @bansearch X8SanguineRoseX
[13:17] <bazhang> perfect storm of annoyingness in -ot now
[13:41] <Myrtti> @bansearch Batch
[13:41] <Myrtti> "oops"
[13:41] <bazhang> nasty comment before parting in #u
[13:41] <bazhang> or being parted
[13:43] <elky> another ryan. why cant we get *normal* ryans?
[13:44] <Myrtti> the same reason we can't get *normal* Aussies... *hides*
[13:44] <elky> yeah, but we're a *better* kind of not normal.
[13:44]  * Myrtti counts the bans on .au tld
[13:47]  * elky *loves* getting the -ot crowd to extend bans for her :D
[13:52] <Batch> NIGGERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
[13:52] <Batch> WAT
[13:52] <Myrtti> fun!
[13:52] <elky> someone's ban just got extended to a month.
[13:52] <Myrtti> "oops"
[13:52] <elky> how do i mark again?
[13:53] <bazhang> didnt plan to remove in 24 hrs from #ubuntu at any rate
[13:53] <Myrtti> (meow) <nick> markitymark
[13:53] <bazhang> use @mark channel nick
[13:53] <Myrtti> oops
[13:53] <Myrtti> (meow)mark <channel> <nick> markitymark
[13:53] <bazhang> err @mark #channel nick
[13:54] <elky> @mark #ubuntu-ops Batch Do not lift bans for this twit for at least 28 days from now.
[13:55]  * elky notes the aprilhare entries...
[13:56] <Batch> ohai guise.
[13:56] <bazhang> hi Batch
[13:56] <Batch> Sup?
[13:56] <Myrtti> nothing much, just extended your ban a bit
[13:56] <Myrtti> and you?
[13:56] <Batch> i herd u liek to b& so i put a B& in your B& :<
[13:56] <bazhang> ?
[13:56] <Batch> ISeriously though.
[13:57] <elky> Batch, your ban now lasts a whole month. please return then, and *not* before.
[13:57] <Batch> WOuld like to protest the ban
[13:57] <bazhang> for -ot
[13:57] <Batch> Really, Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
[13:57] <elky> speak english please.
[13:58] <bazhang> as you are on mint, no reason to let you back in #ubuntu
[13:58] <Batch> I had legitimate questions.
[13:58] <Batch> I didn't get answered
[13:58] <Batch> So i got bored etc
[13:58] <Batch> :>
[13:58] <bazhang> that and the incessant offtopic/trolling
[13:58] <Batch> I didn't troll :<
[13:58] <Batch> 0/10 liek liek
[13:58] <elky> Batch, please go away and return in a month's time. Not before.
[13:58] <Batch> BUT
[13:58] <Batch> BUT
[13:58] <Batch> TBUT
[13:59] <Batch> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
[13:59] <elky> i have no idea what he's saying...
[13:59] <bazhang> he is just a time wasting troll.
[13:59] <elky> i figured. i at least like my trolls to say amusing things, not garble.
[14:07] <Batch> Hay
[14:07] <Batch> Unb& already?
[14:07] <Batch> :>
[14:07] <Batch> :<
[14:07] <Batch> Meanie.
[14:07] <Batch> lulz
[14:07] <Myrtti> go away, come back in a month
[14:08] <Myrtti> kthx
[14:08] <Batch> I won't though.
[14:08] <Batch> :<
[14:08] <Myrtti> plz?
[14:09] <Batch> nowai
[14:09] <Batch> doitfgt
[14:09] <Batch> kline me nig
[14:09] <Myrtti> have it your way then, I'll ban you from here as well
[14:09] <Myrtti> heads up for that one
[14:10] <Myrtti> is someone thinking about what to say to compengi at -irc?
[14:10] <Myrtti> elky?
[14:11] <Myrtti> thx
[16:51] <Myrtti> !-search troll
[16:51] <bazhang> he/she was in earlier and had some very nasty message before quitting
[16:51] <bazhang> ie beehive
[18:20] <bazhang> LaserJock, hi
[18:20] <LaserJock> I got a note from Pici to drop by to discuss bots in #edubuntu
[18:20] <bazhang> he seems to be afk
[18:36] <Myrtti> I was there though - let me look up the logs
[18:37] <Myrtti> LaserJock: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/28/%23ubuntu-ops.html
[18:37] <LaserJock> Myrtti: about what time?
[18:37] <Myrtti> we noticed the other day that bencrisford had started up couple of bots that were running on #edubuntu
[18:38] <LaserJock> ah yes
[18:38] <Myrtti> LaserJock: starting from 16:49
[18:38] <LaserJock> an excited new contributor
[18:38] <Myrtti> so we figured
[18:39] <Myrtti> he did take them off when asked, but was just wondering your "official" opinion about them, as the general guideline about the bots is, that the official bots the IRC team and Canonical provide should be enough
[18:39] <Myrtti> s/was/we were/
[18:40] <LaserJock> well
[18:40] <LaserJock> if he came up with something useful I was going to maybe ask for it
[18:40] <LaserJock> there are some things that I'd like to see from a bot that I don't think we currently have
[18:40] <LaserJock> *but* the bots he did were not very useful and just spammed the channel
[18:40] <Myrtti> indeed
[18:41] <LaserJock> I was kinda trying to get him to tone it down in a nice way :-)
[18:42] <Myrtti> anyways, we do have the special bot task force as well, so if you have some requests about the bots, we can look what we can do
[18:42] <LaserJock> ok
[18:42] <LaserJock> can you do channel-specific things at all?
[18:43] <Myrtti> yes
[18:43] <Myrtti> !offtopic-#ubuntu-offtopic
[18:43] <Myrtti> !offtopic
[18:43] <Myrtti> for example factoids
[18:44] <LaserJock> I was hoping to get some channel specific package information
[18:45] <LaserJock> !info gcompris
[18:45] <Myrtti> what kind to be exact?
[18:45] <LaserJock> like for ^^ I don't want the description, I want the current Debian unstable version
[18:46] <Myrtti> hmmmm
[18:46] <LaserJock> edubuntu has ~ 30 packages that it takes care of, we know what packages are what :-)
[18:46] <LaserJock> we just want to get better info
[18:46] <LaserJock> it's quite wishlist, I just wondered
[18:46] <Myrtti> !info gcompris foo
[18:47] <Myrtti> ok, so it doesn't have those enabled, and I'm not sure if they should be enabled by default either...
[18:47]  * Myrtti pokes jussi01
[18:47] <LaserJock> I wonder if there is a way to have like a info-dev command
[18:47] <LaserJock> the info command is nice for general usage
[18:48] <jussi01> we can add debian repos no issue
[18:48] <LaserJock> but developers are very likely to not need the description and priority
[18:48] <LaserJock> but they're likely to want more version info
[18:49] <jussi01> LaserJock: if you have specific requests, please file a bug and we will attempt to make it happened
[18:49] <LaserJock> ok cool, it was just a "hmm, it'd be handy if" thing.
[18:50] <jussi01> LaserJock: exactly, most of what you are saying can be done fairly easily, we just need to be informed of what you want
[18:50] <jussi01> hence we need the bug
[18:53] <jussi01> !bug | LaserJock
[18:55] <topyli> wishlist bugs are bugs too :)
[18:55] <Myrtti> "if it doesn't work as you expect it to, it's a bug"
[18:56] <Myrtti> QOTD: Paul Sladen
[19:14] <topyli> +1
[19:28] <TheFunkbomb> Good news everyone, now I can't connect to #ubuntu either
[19:30] <Mamarok> why am I not astonished?
[19:31] <Myrtti> he's in #ubuntu?
[19:31] <Mamarok> well, he seems not to be anymore
[19:32]  * Mamarok is never in #ubuntu
[19:32] <Myrtti> hrm
[19:37] <Myrtti> @mark #ubuntu Kraft kb him, if further problems arise
[20:26] <Myrtti> ok, please, quick, someone remind me why I'm on #ubuntu-uk
[20:26] <popey> :(
[20:26] <popey> wassup?
[20:27] <popey> not been paying attention
[20:27] <Myrtti> brobostigon is being an ass, and the other idiots don't notice and let it happen
[20:27] <Myrtti> he did say he's sorry, but I'm not holding my breath on him understanding it
[20:27] <Daviey> :o
[20:28]  * popey hits page up for a bit
[20:28] <popey> ugh, didnt see that, sorry
[20:28] <Myrtti> I'm not sure I want to give the whole channel a lesson on how to not make women feel uncomfortable
[20:29] <popey> What would you like to see happen?
[20:29] <popey> I have ideas in mind, but I flat out don't know the best approach
[20:30] <Myrtti> hmmm
[20:30] <Daviey> I have to agree, he clearly wasn't attempting to "troll", and he is a reg' - and we don't normally see that
[20:31] <popey> he has issues
[20:31] <popey> I doubt he speaks to many people in his own life
[20:31] <Myrtti> Daviey: that's not a unique incident
[20:32] <Myrtti> that's just the top of the iceberg, and I've just about had it
[20:32] <Daviey> Myrtti: If you have some log extracts.. we can have a word, if that helps?
[20:32] <Myrtti> hold on
[20:33] <jussi01> thefunkbomb had dcc exploit problems iirc
[20:34] <popey> Myrtti: sorry it's not been addressed previously
[20:35] <Daviey> Sometimes it's hard to spot, without the usual explicatives.. However raising the issue does help.
[20:36] <Myrtti> popey: I've just swallowed it and hoped I'd personally know how to handle it
[20:37] <popey> I'm having a word with him
[20:38] <Myrtti> he's nice enough guy, but I just don't know how to handle it
[20:38] <Myrtti> what bothers me more is that nobody else said that he was out of line this time
[20:39] <Myrtti> which means that either they're used to him saying things like that (BAD) or they don't care (BAD) or they found it funny (BAD)
[20:40] <Daviey> I honestly didn't notice it.. note that there were only a couple of people active at that moment
[20:40] <Daviey> we aren't all bad :)
[20:41] <Myrtti> Daviey: you weren't active there, neither was popey, so I'm not counting you in
[20:41] <Myrtti> I'm talking about the people that were actively participating in the convo
[20:41] <Daviey> sure
[20:45] <Myrtti> he's been picking me as a test subject for his irssi translation plugin - so he translates stuff like "pours some red wine for Myrtti" to Finnish and all. It is a bit creepy
[20:46] <popey> he tends to "scp coffee to *" a lot
[20:47] <popey> I suspect he's quite a lonely guy
[20:47] <Myrtti> did feel a bit weird seeing http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/free/2009/04/05/%23ubuntu-uk.html in my backlog one morning
[20:47] <popey> which whilst it doesn't _excuse_ his behaviour, it goes a long way to explaining it
[20:47] <Myrtti> yup
[20:47] <Myrtti> I know he's a good guy, he just hasn't read the howto and doesn't know how to deal with a female being vocal on such a channel
[20:48] <Myrtti> it's sad to say this, but I hope he'd treat me as one of the guys, with no special treatment, and leave the gender slurs outside
[20:49]  * popey is having a word
[20:51]  * Myrtti goes to get some apple juice and to knit a bit to unwind
[20:53] <Daviey> Myrtti: fancy making me a tank top?
[20:53]  * popey unwinds Myrttis knitting, Tom & Jerry style
[20:54] <Daviey> ACME TNT
[20:54] <Myrtti> Daviey: I'm not allowed to purchase, steal, acquire or receive donations of yarn
[20:54] <Daviey> suits me.. means i get it free \o/
[20:54] <Myrtti> Daviey: which means I don't have any yarn to use on knitting a tank top
[20:55] <Daviey> !
[20:55] <Daviey> This is a problem
[20:55] <Daviey> I could "lend" you some yarn?
[20:55] <Myrtti> I've got about 20kg of yarn - which I should knit before getting more. Sadly for you, they're all the kind you *REALLY* don't want a tank top of
[20:56] <Myrtti> keeping in mind I'm planning to move to UK and all... might need to start offshoring some of my stash to mums
[21:01] <Daviey> Myrtti: you'd be suprised what i'd wear :)
[21:01] <popey> yeah!
[21:27] <Gary> is valix a known?
[21:27] <Pici> I don't think so...
[21:28]  * Pici looks
[21:28] <Gary> thanks Pici
[21:28] <Myrtti> he asked in -irc for an ubuntu cloak
[21:28] <Pici> nothing in the bantracker for that nick
[21:28] <Myrtti> as a member of ubuntu italian marketing
[21:28] <Gary> he just got a unaffiliated cloak, and gr00ber suggested he is a troll
[21:28] <Myrtti> asked him about ubuntu membership and launchpad page, didn't respond, left.
[21:29] <Pici> gr00ber's response came off as a troll himself.
[21:29] <Myrtti> I think I might take a time out on -uk for a while
[21:29] <Myrtti> couple of weeks might do me good
[21:32] <Gary> why, whats up with -uk? (apart from us all being nutters)
[21:32] <Myrtti> Gary: I need to concentrate on work more, the work project is drawing to a close, also see backlog
[21:34] <Gary> Daviey: i'd not be suprised
[21:36] <Daviey> \o/
[21:39] <Myrtti> of course I'm not telling anyone I bought 33€ worth of yarn for this shawl last week *cough*
[21:49] <Pici> @login