[06:47] <ravibn> Hi!
[09:02] <nucc1> hi guys, i'm trying to fix a minor evolution bug, and i get this error when trying to build the package, what does it mean? http://pastie.org/1465981
[15:14] <micahg> nucc1: it means you don't have gnome-pkg-tools and cdbs installed
[15:15] <nucc1> micahg, had cdbs, didn't have gnome-pkg-tools and dh-autoreconf . someone at ubuntu-devel told me. thanks
[15:16] <micahg> nucc1: ah, ok, you can use apt-file to tell you what package something is in
[15:16] <nucc1> cool
[15:16] <nucc1> if you're trying to patch an ubuntu package, is there a shorter way to get to test it?
[15:16] <nucc1> currently, you have to build a .deb and install it
[15:18] <Amaranth> I don't see how it could get shorter, you have to actually compile the thing and test to make sure it works...
[15:19] <micahg> nucc1: no, that's the only way at least for a compiled program, for an interpreted program, you can copy the file on the system, but that's only a partial test
[15:19] <nucc1> Amaranth, yes, compile, but skip the build a deb and install part.
[15:19] <nucc1> micahg, thanks
[15:20] <Amaranth> nucc1: well if you run debuild binary it'll only do the full build once
[15:20] <Amaranth> nucc1: and further changes will only recompile the things you changed then make the package
[15:20] <Amaranth> once you think you've got it you should do a full regular build though
[15:21] <nucc1> Amaranth, i was following the instructions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix
[15:21] <nucc1> and that uses pbuilder-dist which seems to build the entire thing
[15:21] <Amaranth> Right, you'll want to do that once you've got a proper fix
[15:22] <nucc1> so what command do i run to do a quick build?
[15:22] <Amaranth> debuild binary
[15:22] <Amaranth> it won't be quick the first time, you of course still have to build everything
[15:22] <nucc1> ah, lol. my eyes saw "debbuild"
[15:23] <Amaranth> think of it like make but also building the package
[15:23] <nucc1> yea, it seems to require me to install all the dependencies
[15:23] <Amaranth> of course
[15:23] <Amaranth> you need to be able to compile it :)
[15:24] <nucc1> yes, pbuilder-dist seems to do that in some sort of way. anyway, if i actually install the dependencies, then i should be able to get away with the standard ./configure && make ?
[15:24] <Amaranth> nucc1: no, use debuild
[15:24] <Amaranth> pbuilder sets up a chroot and installs the dependencies there
[15:25] <Amaranth> but it installs them every time you run it, thus it takes quite a while
[15:25] <nucc1> yea
[15:25] <nucc1> running sudo apt-get build-dep now.
[15:25] <nucc1> anyway, the issue i was tracking seems to be out of my league :p
[15:25] <nucc1> a segfault in evolution
[15:26] <Amaranth> ah, do you have a stack trace?
[15:26] <nucc1> i got some stuff out of gdb yes, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/703488
[15:26] <Amaranth> usually it's just a missing NULL check for forgetting to keep a reference to something
[15:26] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 703488 in evolution (Ubuntu) "Evolution crashes if you drag and drop a file on the message list (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
[15:26] <nucc1> Amaranth, yes, but i couldn't find where to place the check :)
[15:27] <nucc1> I tried valgrind, it was reaallly slow on my machine and i didn't quite understand what it was telling me afterwards
[15:27] <Amaranth> nucc1: well, it tells you where the crash was (line 873 of em-utils.c)
[15:28] <nucc1> yes, that is not the source, cos i added a null check there but it still crashed
[15:28] <Amaranth> nucc1: in gdb run 'thread apply all bt full' when it crashes
[15:28] <nucc1> ok, lemme try that now
[15:28] <Amaranth> that'll give you the entire detailed backtrace for every thread running
[15:30] <nucc1> evolution is taking a while to quit... storing folder
[15:35] <nucc1> Amaranth, http://paste.ubuntu.com/554749/ i suspect i need to install more dbg symbols
[15:35] <Amaranth> nucc1: that crash doesn't look anything like the first one
[15:35] <nucc1> ah, seem to be many
[15:36] <Amaranth> nucc1: you did run it and wait for it to crash, right?
[15:36] <nucc1> yeap. i've found it. let me paste it
[15:37] <nucc1> Amaranth, http://paste.ubuntu.com/554750/
[15:38] <Amaranth> nucc1: well, there you go, uris is 0x0
[15:38] <Amaranth> Should uris be NULL at that point or is that your bug?
[15:40] <nucc1> uris should not be null, because it get's set when a file is dropped onto the window. however, NULL is a valid value, but there is no null check
[15:40] <nucc1> that sounds dense.
[15:41] <nucc1> Amaranth, see the snippet, with my added null check: http://pastie.org/1466913
[15:41] <nucc1> (the ubuntu pastebin is not so convenient for repeated use)
[15:42] <Amaranth> nucc1: line 3 is your addition?
[15:42] <nucc1> yes
[15:43] <Amaranth> odd, line 873 is actually in a different function...
[15:44] <nucc1> line 873 is the first line of the loop
[15:46] <Amaranth> nucc1: oh, are you using maverick?
[15:46] <nucc1> ah, yes :)
[15:46]  * Amaranth is looking at natty evolution
[15:46] <nucc1> lol
[15:46] <Amaranth> nucc1: in that case the first thing you should do is see if it still happens with natty's packages
[15:46] <nucc1> that means a VM...
[15:47] <Amaranth> or just installing them on top of your maverick install
[15:47] <Amaranth> nucc1: but it's a waste of time trying to fix a bug that may already be fixed
[15:47] <nucc1> that could pull in stuff that might make my machine unstable.
[15:48] <nucc1> true, i just figured it was still helpful to fix it on a stable release
[15:50] <nucc1> Amaranth, you could drag and drop a file onto evolution and see if it crashes :)
[15:50] <nucc1> the message list, that is
[15:50] <Amaranth> nucc1: I don't even have it installed :)
[15:50] <nucc1> lol
[15:50] <nucc1> ok, lemme download the ISO.
[15:51] <Amaranth> why would you drag a file on to the message list anyway?
[15:51] <nucc1> happened by mistake
[15:52] <nucc1> then it felt embarrassing that the default mail client crashes when you drop a file on it.
[15:52] <nucc1> so i figured, lemme have a go at it


[06:27] <Tampicou> hola broter
[07:43] <rigo> hi
[07:43] <rigo> i know that i'm talking about a mounted ftp site, but is there any chance for me to set up the mounted ftp site to my proftpd as default root?
[08:03] <rigo> any idea?
[08:04] <rigo> i did the mapping with the curlftpfs to /mnt/ftp if i set up in proftpd as default root the /mnt the ftp directory is not visible.
[08:04] <rigo> log sais: chroot to '/mnt/ftp/' failed for user 'xbmc': Operation not permitted
[08:04] <bazhang> rigo, support in #ubuntu , this is for the not even alpha version 13.10
[08:05] <rigo> than maybe a q regarding the not even alpha 13.10 :) here u go: when can i install the 13.xy with the fglrx without problems?
[08:06] <bazhang> rigo, support in #ubuntu
[08:06] <bazhang> there's nothing in 13.10 now
[08:06] <rigo> ok. sad :)
[08:07] <rigo> thanks for now bye :)
[11:48] <BluesKaj> Hi all


[10:07] <jhammam> hi
[10:08] <jhammam> can anyone help me to register
[10:15] <Treenaks> jhammam: register what
[10:24] <jhammam> its said that this channel requires that you have registered and identified yourself with the network's nickname
[10:35] <anandaputra> hallooo...
[10:42] <jhammam> hi
[12:59] <kjcole> Hiya all...
[01:00] <Yagisan> G'day kjcole
[01:00] <lucasvo> hi kjcole
[01:00] <flint> morning kevin!!
[01:01] <lucasvo> kjcole: I managed to checkout the cookbook
[01:01] <lucasvo> kjcole: is there any roadmap/ todo list?
[01:02] <kjcole> Morning, Mr. Flint, Did you get that grant notification from Community of Science?
[01:02] <JaneW> hi all
[01:03] <flint> kjcole, did i mention how much it sucks to be old enough to be called Mr. Flint?  BTW what grant notification?
[01:03] <kjcole> Lucasvo, Not yet, but it sounds like a good idea.  We're basically making a pass thru to eliminate unwanted stuff first then a second pass to figure out what to add.
[01:03] <JaneW> sorry about missing last week, things have been hectic and I felt really ill  etc
[01:03] <flint> morning jane how you feel?
[01:03] <Forth> hi Mr. Flint
[01:03] <ogra> yeah, sorry for not putting up the notes yet ...
[01:03] <ogra> i lag a bit with my paperwork
[01:04] <flint> Forth, that was harsh, try flint...morning ollie!
[01:04] <JaneW> flint: much better today, but ready for a VAC!
[01:04] <kjcole> Flint, I sent something your way last saturday or sunday: someone's offering money for "computers and software that will close the digital divide in education..."
[01:05] <flint> JaneW, it is a balmy -3 F here in Montpelier, Vermont...
[01:05] <JaneW> sucks2Bme, peak of summer holidays here and I still working
[01:05] <JaneW> flint: luverly!
[01:05] <JaneW> ok let's hit it?
[01:05] <kjcole> Flint, brisk..
[01:05] <flint> kjcole, i will check, please send again...
[01:05] <ogra> yup
[01:05] <ogra> my update is quick today ....
[01:06] <ogra> most of my worktime was spent for http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2005-December/000927.html last week
[01:06] <ogra> but i started to work on the low memory spec (which includes the fix for powerpc installs to finally work)
[01:06] <kjcole> flint, it's one of those things that only allows you to send form mail, so it may not look like it's from me, but trust it.  Community of Science.
[01:06] <ogra> thats al from the tech side ....
[01:06] <kjcole> And, g'morning JaneW.
[01:06] <flint> kjcole, gotcha...
[01:07] <JaneW> hi kjcole
[01:07] <jelkner> kjcole: did we do documentation report yet?
[01:07] <Yagisan> ogra: so currently it still uses the same amount of ram as breezys ?
[01:07] <JaneW> oli: wow that was quick
[01:07] <jelkner> quick is good
[01:07] <kjcole> jelkner, no.
[01:07] <ogra> Yagisan, yup
[01:08] <Yagisan> ogra: so still a tight fit on 64mb boxes
[01:08] <JaneW> ooh I am lagging on the list mails we have a flight 2?
[01:08] <ogra> my next upload will include the change to drop the linux-restricted-modules package from the thin client
[01:08] <JaneW> ogra: and LiveCD?
[01:08] <ogra> which will gain about 10-15 MB
[01:08] <ogra> JaneW, is fine
[01:08] <ogra> see the announceent :)
[01:08] <JaneW> YAY
[01:09] <Yagisan> other then myself and ogra, has anyone tested multi-arch out ?
[01:09] <JaneW> you been stealthy ;)
[01:09] <JaneW> well done !
[01:09] <ogra> i was busy :)
[01:09] <JaneW> mdz will be impressed (I hope)
[01:09] <ogra> Yagisan, i tested it several times ... but i'd like to enhance it for ppc on amd64/i386, any input welcome
[01:10] <Yagisan> ogra: I'm still think about using qemu for that
[01:10] <flint> ogra, damn...I expect to begin testing here and I will rely on this page from you.
[01:11] <ogra> flint, jelkner has alreaedy beaten you :) got my first bug reports ;)
[01:11] <Yagisan> ogra: first I'll fix my fstab issues, send patch, then investigate how to get that going. should qemu work
[01:11] <Yagisan> ogra: I'll need some people with real powerpc boxes to test the clients
[01:11] <ogra> i'm not sure, i have no quemu experience at all... i use real HW
[01:11] <flint> ogra, ollie, elkner is a whiner, of course he would file the first bugs...
[01:11] <lucasvo> Yagisan: I have a iBook
[01:11] <ogra> flint, he didnt file ;) he reported live :)
[01:12] <flint> ogra, thus proving my point :^)
[01:12] <ogra> heh
[01:13] <flint> Yagisan, will a mac do as a power pc platform?
[01:13] <ogra> yup
[01:13] <Yagisan> it should
[01:13] <ogra> its the only thing i'll test here ...
[01:13] <Yagisan> first I need the unpack to go succesfully
[01:13] <ogra> unless someone donates me a netvista thin client :)
[01:14] <flint> A lot of my stuff is still in storage, but I may have an angle here...Elkner what about Phil?
[01:14] <Yagisan> I had that partially working around the time of breezys release, but I haven't picked it up since then
[01:14] <kjcole> Flint, Shapiro?  Or another Phil?
[01:15] <Yagisan> the issue I had was that qemu would run simple stuff like ls, dmesg but it died on bash, and the install failed (amd64 host)
[01:15] <flint> kjcole, yes indeed Phil Shapiro.  He has truckloads of G3's and maybe a few G5's
[01:17] <jelkner> yes he does
[01:17] <jelkner> and i'm sure he would like to help
[01:18] <jelkner> i only have about 12 minutes before students arrive, are we going to talk about docs?
[01:18] <ogra> for now the ltsp install on ppc is still borked ... so yu guys have some time until my next upload arrives ;)
[01:18] <ogra> i'm done as i said ...
[01:19] <JaneW> are we done with tech stuff?
[01:19] <JaneW> snap
[01:19] <ogra> :)
[01:19] <JaneW> good progress
[01:19] <ogra> mostly CD testing ... it eats a lot of time ...
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: so is everything looking like smooth sailing to dapper?
[01:19] <lucasvo> Yagisan: you are interested in testing ppc clients?
[01:19] <ogra> JaneW, yup
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: excellent
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: and local devices, think there's a chance it will get sorted?
[01:20] <ogra> JaneW, and i even got granted the right to upload myself while mdz is away ;)
[01:20] <JaneW> ogra: cool, sneak stuff through... ;)
[01:20] <JaneW> I never said that!
[01:20] <Yagisan> lucasvo: yes - but I'm in Sydney
[01:20] <ogra> there is still a meeting pending... i'll have to wait for mdz, but i'll start testing
[01:20] <JaneW> nod
[01:20] <JaneW> ok documentation ->
[01:20] <lucasvo> Yagisan: ssh isn't enough?
[01:20] <ogra> sound is also awaiting his approval
[01:21] <flint> JaneW, wait a minute i have to pick at a very important scab...
[01:21] <Yagisan> lucasvo: I'd need a loaner for some testing
[01:21] <JaneW> flint: you are incorigable!
[01:21] <Yagisan> lucasvo: anyway - I'll let you know if/when I have something ready to test
[01:21] <JaneW> (and I can't spell)
[01:21] <flint> ogra, elkner says it will not be very dapper without local storage...
[01:22] <Yagisan> flint: but ducks only have a limited amount of local storage anyway ...
[01:22] <ogra> flint, the spec was always low/mid prio ...
[01:22] <ogra> i have to care for the high priority stuff first ...
[01:23] <ogra> and for the blocker bugs ...
[01:23] <jelkner> flint: you were not available
[01:24] <Yagisan> ogra: priority 1 - does it start, priority 2 - no BSOD :)
[01:24] <jelkner> limited is ok, but we *some*
[01:24] <ogra> flint, the other specs are likely to be implemented before edn of the year (at least locally) so i can spend the rest of my time on local devices ...
[01:24] <flint> Yagisan, what is this a "flap" about storage?
[01:25] <jelkner> ogra: great news!
[01:25] <ogra> but still n promises ...
[01:25] <flint> that would be sweet ollie! i would love to help...
[01:26] <JaneW> flint: what about the scab...?
[01:26] <JaneW> flint is Gold Memeber!
[01:26] <flint> that is the itch!
[01:27] <flint> I would not want a duck with an itch...
[01:27] <flint> on to the docs...
[01:27] <kjcole> Meanwhile... Docs: We are getting more and more requests from folks wanting to help with the cookbook... which, while appreciated, I'm not sure we're ready for.  One thing is that I think some are still thinking "wiki" while we're thinking "PDF" and "HTML".
[01:28] <jelkner> besides, too many cooks spoil the cookbook
[01:28] <kjcole> lucasvo asked a few minutes ago if we had a roadmap...  I guess the tuxlab table of contents is the closest approximation of a roadmap, such as it is.
[01:28] <jelkner> things work well with a small group of folks who can work closely together
[01:29] <irvin> the cookbook will be dapper-specific or will it include stuff from breezy?
[01:29] <jelkner> but to maintain a consistent style and a well organized book, you really need just a few people
[01:29] <ogra> it will be dapper and +
[01:29] <jelkner> ogra: we will need your help
[01:29] <ogra> jelkner, for ?
[01:30] <jelkner> we have what was a chapter (which we are making an appendix) which describes the boot process in low level detail
[01:30] <ogra> tech stuff ?
[01:30] <jelkner> yup
[01:30] <jelkner> it will be a great appendix
[01:30] <ogra> fine with me
[01:30] <jelkner> the current version describes ltsp
[01:30] <flint> I will make myself available for bad prose and puns....
[01:30] <ogra> so we have a 20 page cookbook and a 100 page appendix ?
[01:30] <irvin> haha
[01:30] <jelkner> and since edubuntu is different, kevin and i will need your help
[01:30] <ogra> :)
[01:30] <lucasvo> a list of who is working on what would be gooda as well.
[01:30] <flint> and 300 pages of bug reports...
[01:31] <jelkner> kevin said he would get in touch with you about that
[01:31] <ogra> the basics of the bootprocess are the same ...
[01:31] <kjcole> ogra, We're now in chapter 6, and an appendix.  The LTSP description in tuxLab goes into deep detail, which I gather, is wong.
[01:31] <jelkner> you'll see when we send you the draft
[01:31] <jelkner> a lot is different
[01:31] <kjcole> jelkner, my bad.
[01:31] <ogra> yup, i'll check out bzr ...
[01:31] <flint> actually, are there any diagrams?
[01:31] <jelkner> no
[01:31] <jelkner> we could use some
[01:32] <flint> I love diagrams, elkner knows from his system descriptions how much I like diagrams.
[01:33] <jelkner> step on is to get the current edited version of the appendix to ogra
[01:33] <jelkner> (kjcole will do that)
[01:33] <JaneW> jelkner: it makes sense to keep the group containable and functional then, if you can manage the load...
[01:33] <jelkner> then after ogra fixes it, we can talk to flint about adding a diagram
[01:33] <JaneW> diagrams are great, the more the better IMO
[01:33] <ogra> yup
[01:33] <JaneW> makes it more interesting and accessable
[01:33] <jelkner> JaneW: yes, jane
[01:33] <jelkner> that is the only way to do it
[01:34] <kjcole> ogra, expect that from me a bit later today.
[01:34] <ogra> yup
[01:34] <jelkner> since it is free content, folks can make whatever changes they want after we have a go at it
[01:35] <jelkner> i guess that's it for the book
[01:35] <lucasvo> I would like to have some list of who is doing what for the cookbook.
[01:35] <kjcole> The face-to-face meetings really help.  (As nice as IRC and gobby are, they're no substitute for simultaneously reading text aloud.)
[01:36] <lucasvo> Because I don't have a clue who is doing what.
[01:36] <lucasvo> kjcole: where do you live :D
[01:36] <jelkner> luscasva: kevin and i are editing the first draft
[01:36] <jelkner> that's about it
[01:36] <flint> kjcole, elkner are skype-ing at this meeting.  I highly recommend this communication channel to all...
[01:36] <ogra> lucasvo, > than 8h away from you
[01:36] <ogra> (with a plane ;) )
[01:36] <lucasvo> skype doesn't work on my box
[01:37] <flint> lucasvo, it took a lot of doing to get skype working under breezy...
[01:37] <kjcole> lucasvo, just ignore flint. ;-)
[01:38] <ogra> complain at skype, its closed source stuff, we cant do much about it ...
[01:38] <lucasvo> yeah, thats why we should use gnome-meeting
[01:38] <ogra> yup
[01:39] <lucasvo> but that doesn't work on my machine, because I have blocked UDP
[01:40] <flint> lucasvo, indeed, that is why stoom or gizmo might be a better fit.  funcitonally it is really quite nice..
[01:42] <jelkner> lucasvo: are you trying to get involved in the book?
[01:42] <lucasvo> jelkner: yes
[01:42] <jelkner> ok, here is what we should do:
[01:43] <kjcole> lucasvo, essentially, we're going through the tuxLab Cookbook, in order.  Much of it is well-written, and just has parts which need to be eliminated.   And now we're finally getting into specific differences like the LTSP boot process, which need to be replaced.
[01:43] <jelkner> kevin and i are meeting next on jan 7 (sunday
[01:43] <jelkner> )
[01:43] <jelkner> could you join us remotely then?
[01:43] <jelkner> 10 am EST
[01:43] <kjcole> Eastern Standard (UTC - 5:00)
[01:43] <flint> what a civilized hour to meet :^)
[01:44] <jelkner> send us your email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:44] <jelkner> and we will get you the latest source before then
[01:44] <lucasvo> jelkner: 5 am in the morning?
[01:44] <jelkner> well, we start then
[01:44] <jelkner> and work until about 4 pm
[01:44] <flint> lucasvo, I take it you are in "la bella italia"?
[01:44] <jelkner> so you could join us later
[01:44] <kjcole> luasvo: EST = UTC -5:00
[01:45] <lucasvo> flint: no, switzerlad
[01:45] <kjcole> lucasvo, So, 10:00 EST... You do the math for where you are.
[01:45] <flint> lucasvo, a thousand pardons...
[01:45] <lucasvo> it is 4 in the morning for me
[01:46] <jelkner> anyway, our next work session is jan 7
[01:46] <jelkner> we *start* at 4
[01:46] <jelkner> and work until 10 your time
[01:46] <irvin> kjcole, jelkner can i join in too?
[01:46] <ogra> lucasvo, 5:00 UTC is 6am in europe
[01:46] <jelkner> what is the earliest you can jolin us?
[01:46] <kjcole> Lucasvo: That can't be right...  10:00 EST should be 3:00 PM EST, if I'm not mistaken.
[01:46] <kjcole> s /3:00 EST/ 3:00 UTC/
[01:46] <flint> lucasvo, these people are like dairy farmers and the documentation is like a milk cow :^)
[01:47] <JaneW> Our next meeting is Jan 11
[01:47] <jelkner> irvin: send me an email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:47] <lucasvo> jelkner: should I join the team?
[01:47] <jelkner> so i can plan with you how to get something going
[01:47] <lucasvo> jelkner: launchpad.com/people/lucasvo
[01:47] <jelkner> sure
[01:47] <jelkner> kevin set that up
[01:47] <jelkner> i don't know concretely what it means yet
[01:47] <jelkner> kevin?
[01:48] <jelkner> s/jan 11/jan 7
[01:48] <jelkner> oops
[01:48] <kjcole> jelkner, not a whole lot.  ;-)  It's currently just a list of interested parties.
[01:48] <ogra> JaneW, why dont we do one on jan 4th ?
[01:49] <jelkner> ok, so folks can join it if they wish, but send me an email if you want to be included in the planning
[01:49] <irvin> thanks jelkner
[01:50] <JaneW> ogra: you can, but I will be on leave (and camping, so not available at all)
[01:50] <kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.
[01:50] <ogra> there were several -fr people asking for a possibility to translate, since they are subscribed to the ML, could you CC the ml for planning ?
[01:50] <jelkner> ok, that about does it
[01:50] <jelkner> ogra: ok, another issue
[01:51] <jelkner> not a good idea yet
[01:51] <flint> kjcole, for instance lucasvo, kevin would never approve me... :^(
[01:51] <kjcole> jelkner, launchpad, bzr, web space?
[01:51] <ogra> jelkner, why ?
[01:51] <jelkner> they would be translating a *very* moving target
[01:51] <jelkner> think how much work that would be
[01:51] <lucasvo> kjcole: I don't understand what you want to say
[01:51] <ogra> as early as possible  i would think
[01:51] <flint> kjcole, how is your experience with bzr?
[01:52] <ogra> jelkner, my prob is that they start to develop totally independent documentation that i cant ever check (my french sucks)
[01:52] <jelkner> ogra: yes, but that is the only way that makes sense
[01:52] <ogra> so knowing they use our upstream source will give some safety about the correctnees of the content
[01:52] <jelkner> the book is a global thing
[01:52] <kjcole> lucasvo, regarding what?
[01:53] <lucasvo> 13:50 < kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.
[01:53] <jelkner> when editing chapter x, we find that a change in chapter x - 5 will help clarify things
[01:53] <jelkner> so the whole book is constantly changing
[01:53] <jelkner> if they start translating now
[01:53] <ogra> then they have to change it as well
[01:53] <jelkner> they would have to do it all again each week
[01:53] <jelkner> a *lot* of work
[01:53] <flint> ogra, the only thing to rely on is the outline/TOC... and even that remains in flux
[01:53] <ogra> my concern is that they already do stuff and that some of it is really wrong ...
[01:54] <kjcole> Lucasvo, you asked if you should "join the team".  I've set up a team on Launchpad, but it is restricted so that I get e-mail when someone adds themselves to the team.  Their membership waits until I approve it.
[01:54] <ogra> additionally they developed a broken liveCD and people come to us, asking about fixes for example ...
[01:54] <kjcole> Lucasvo, Unless it's flint, I approve them.
[01:54] <ogra> i want coordination, as much as possible ...
[01:55] <lucasvo> kjcole: aha, yes
[01:55] <flint> kjcole, power corrupts...
[01:55] <jelkner> ogra: i can coordinate the english version of the book
[01:55] <jelkner> i would encourgage translators to wait
[01:55] <ogra> jelkner, we need to coordinate beyond language borders, thats why i ask you to make the coordination public to all ...
[01:55] <jelkner> unless you have enough of a team for an independent effort in another language
[01:56] <jelkner> ogra: keep in mind, you can't write a book with dozens of contributors
[01:56] <ogra> ...thats why i ask to CC the mailing lis in your coordination discussions
[01:56] <jelkner> it won't work
[01:56] <kjcole> Ogra, most of what we're doing so far isn't very technical, and is general enough to still be right: "What is an Operating System?"  "What is a Network"  "Why is Open Source a 'good thing'?"
[01:57] <lucasvo> launchpad.net - not found...
[01:57] <jelkner> it would be hugely helpful if we could get our work into bzr
[01:57] <jelkner> then folks could just grab it and look at it
[01:57] <ogra> jelkner, i just want you to make it public, i didnt say "acceppt 100 contributors"
[01:57] <lucasvo> jelkner: what's the bzr kjcole has?
[01:57] <ogra> they should just know whats going on
[01:57] <jelkner> it is on a local machine he set up
[01:58] <jelkner> it would be much better to have it on launchpad
[01:58] <ogra> it will, if launchpad is ready
[01:58] <jelkner> agian, we are stuck trying to learn to setup bzr, instead of focusing on writing the book
[01:58] <ogra> the bzr archive is fine ...
[01:58] <ogra> whats the prob ?
[01:58] <flint> kevin, where is version control?
[01:59] <jelkner> we can't commit
[01:59] <kjcole> lucasvo, he meant launchpad, not bzr.
[01:59] <ogra> you dont commit on the server ....
[01:59] <flint> sounds like guy thing...
[01:59] <kjcole> ogra, he meant push.
[01:59] <ogra> you make a local branch and commit there ...
[02:00] <ogra> and i still would suggest to leave the merging in one hand ... dont do all pushes to one source ...
[02:00] <flint> we have a big bzr understanding problem
[02:00] <lucasvo> can you reach launchpad?
[02:00] <ogra> have one guy managing the merges of the branches
[02:00] <ogra> how i work with mdz:
[02:00] <flint> next week documentation time is about using bzr ok?  jane back me up!
[02:00] <ogra> he has the master branch online ....
[02:01] <ogra> i pull it locally, make my changes and commit ....
[02:01] <JaneW> flint: knock yourself out
[02:01] <jelkner> ok all, i need to go
[02:01] <JaneW> on your own
[02:01] <lucasvo> jelkner: I will contact you..
[02:01] <ogra> then i push it up to my own server ...
[02:01] <flint> kevin can you confirm that you have the master branch online
[02:01] <jelkner> students arriving...
[02:01] <JaneW> no meeting next week :P
[02:01] <lucasvo> jelkner: are you in the launchpad team?
[02:01] <ogra> and he does the merging
[02:01] <jelkner> great
[02:01] <lucasvo> jelkner: bye
[02:01] <flint> JaneW, yea I have done that before...
[02:01] <jelkner> bye
[02:01] <JaneW> the next meeting is in 3 weeks time, and an unofficial one in 2 weeks
[02:01] <flint> ok then week after all about bzr...
[02:01] <lucasvo> JaneW: what time?
[02:02] <JaneW> I am off for 2 weeks from friday WOOHOO
[02:02] <ogra> lucasvo, as usual
[02:02] <flint> JaneW, we need meeting time about use of bzr to go forward.
[02:02] <lucasvo> ah, ok
[02:02] <JaneW> first real leave since April 2004, cept for a long week end or 2
[02:02] <ogra> flint, yes, but you can come to #edubuntu and we do it there ... informal ...
[02:02] <JaneW> flint: you are welcome to have one anytime, even next week or the week after
[02:03] <kjcole> flint, the master branch (root?) is on my machine.  Launchpad points to it.  However, it was intended to be there til moved to somewhere more official like Launchpad itself.  (Ogra tells me the launchpad super-mirror isn't ready for prime-time yet.)
[02:03] <JaneW> lucasvo: always the same time 12:00 UTC
[02:03] <flint> fine we will be there during the meeting on Sunday... will you be fresh and rested?
[02:03] <lucasvo> JaneW: ok, even if it is unofficial
[02:03] <JaneW> sunday
[02:03] <JaneW> lucasvo: well I won;t be here, I guess those that are around will meet the normal time?
[02:03] <lucasvo> ah, ok
[02:04] <lucasvo> I can't reach launchpad
[02:04] <kjcole> flint, one reason push/merge/whatever doesn't fly yet is because I didn't want to open up my little machine for "write access".  But pull works...
[02:04] <JaneW> I seriously need some afk time and will even shut*my*laptop*down *gaspe*!
[02:04] <flint> ogra, you likely need to teach kevin and kevin can then torture me with his superior knowledge...
[02:04] <irvin> just leave the schedule on the fridge :)
[02:04] <JaneW> it is on the fridge
[02:04] <ogra> flint, in short its working how i described above ...
[02:04] <Yagisan> JaneW: you turn off you laptop ?????
[02:05] <JaneW> Yagisan: no but on Friday I am going to
[02:05] <ogra> flint, everybody puts his branch online and doe his commits there... one merge master reviews and merges the work of the others in the main branch
[02:05] <JaneW> we'll how see how long I last before turning it on again ;)
[02:05] <ogra> flint, no magic involved
[02:06] <flint> ogra, lemme attack this issue.   I see a problem to work on.
[02:06] <kjcole> lucasvo, I'm thinking you've got network problems: First the bzr branch giving you troubles now launchpad.net...
[02:06] <flint> elkner ment Sunday January 8th note the date!!!
[02:06] <lucasvo> kjcole: atm I am in school with completely other net
[02:07] <lucasvo> ah, maybe it is because I don't have https proxy
[02:07] <kjcole> lucasvo, well that blows that theory.  Wrong me.
[02:07] <ogra> flint, if the supermirror exists, you'll have your branch attached to your account on launchpad and the merge master will be able to merge stuff *on* launchpad
[02:07] <JaneW> ok time is def up, let's move to #edubuntu?
[02:07] <lucasvo> ah goood
[02:07] <Yagisan> JaneW: I've always wondered what that button next to reset does ...
[02:07] <lucasvo> kjcole: bzr was some python problem, now it is an issue of proxy
[02:08] <flint> janew i move we move to breakfast.  see you on #edubuntu...
[02:10] <lucasvo> hm, I can't join the team, kjcole
[07:25] <linbetwin> Hello, everyone!
[07:59] <TheMuso> Hey all.
[07:59] <dholbach> hellas!
[08:00] <dholbach> I suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-)
[08:00] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[08:01] <kjcole> Hi. ;-)
[08:02] <kjcole> Hi ogra.
[08:03] <linbetwin> hello all!
[08:04] <dholbach> hey linbetwin, hno73
[08:04] <TheMuso> hno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks
[08:04] <hno73> hey dholbach
[08:05] <linbetwin> hello, dholbach!
[08:06] <sivang> hi all
[08:06] <sivang> what meeting is that?
[08:06] <sivang> ah , ally
[08:06] <sivang> cool
[08:07] <kjcole> a11y 00ps ;-)  (If you didn't get it, never mind.)
[08:08] <linbetwin> i always wondered why a11y for accessibility
[08:08] <kjcole> sivang, I know the feeling.  I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't sure which one.  Just that my alarm said "go". ;-)
[08:09] <sivang> kjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well
[08:09] <dholbach> linbetwin: a<eleven letters>y
[08:09] <TheMuso> Ok, so I think everybody is here...
[08:09] <linbetwin> dholbach: thanks
[08:10] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
[08:11] <hno73> Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done since last meeting
[08:11] <dholbach> jgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda?
[08:11] <dholbach> yeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list
[08:11] <TheMuso> Cool!
[08:11] <dholbach> we're more and more taking off :-)
[08:12] <dholbach> maybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that make sense?
[08:13] <hno73> yeah, I might have leave early as well
[08:13] <hno73> Did anyone look at the testing plans?
[08:14] <hno73> We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews
[08:14] <hno73> Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it
[08:14] <dholbach> i'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7)  above the table
[08:15] <TheMuso> dholbach: I agree.
[08:15] <dholbach> i meant v1-v3, m1-m3
[08:16] <TheMuso> As for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up.
[08:16] <hno73> kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought that might need to be done in a different way
[08:16] <TheMuso> It is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc.
[08:16] <hno73> kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out
[08:17] <hno73> TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off
[08:17] <hno73> also useful
[08:17] <kjcole> hno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his).
[08:17] <TheMuso> kjcole: Which one?
[08:18] <hno73> kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of sound to convey information on the desktop
[08:19] <hno73> but rather that the issues are more subtle
[08:19] <kjcole> TheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete.  Please put [URL]  in the wiki."
[08:19] <hno73> I think that was Jason's page
[08:20] <kjcole> TheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation
[08:20] <TheMuso> Yeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it.
[08:20] <kjcole> TheMuso: From http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt
[08:21] <TheMuso> Yeah not mine.
[08:21] <hno73> Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to start doing testing and then filing bugs
[08:21] <dholbach> yeah
[08:22] <dholbach> and i think your page is a good start
[08:22] <hno73> including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox
[08:22] <hno73> I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla
[08:23] <kjcole> hno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds...  If there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary.
[08:23] <hno73> Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help with testing
[08:23] <jgrieves> sorry all had a family emerg.
[08:23] <jgrieves> greetings!
[08:23] <dholbach> yeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as we can
[08:23] <hno73> kjcole: right
[08:24] <hno73> dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now
[08:24] <dholbach> yeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly
[08:24] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Hey
[08:25] <jgrieves> alright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification
[08:25] <kjcole> hno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes, different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language.
[08:25] <jgrieves> it was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead
[08:25] <dholbach> jsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list)
[08:26] <jgrieves> TheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine
[08:27] <TheMuso> Right.
[08:27] <linbetwin> jgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved?
[08:27] <jgrieves> TheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper
[08:28] <hno73> dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so
[08:28] <hno73> :)
[08:28] <jgrieves> linbetwin yep, I  built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes
[08:28] <dholbach> hno73: wow, that's ambitious :)
[08:28] <jgrieves> linbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see that in Dapper
[08:28] <hno73> dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ?
[08:29] <linbetwin> jgrieves: great!
[08:29] <dholbach> yeah, that was super
[08:29] <hno73> jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well
[08:29] <hno73> And I have a couple in the pipeline
[08:30] <jgrieves> hno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left
[08:30] <dholbach> it'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream
[08:30] <hno73> I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well
[08:30] <hno73> jgrieves: yeah it looks good
[08:31] <jgrieves> hno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :)
[08:31] <hno73> :)
[08:31] <hno73> So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us
[08:32] <jgrieves> hno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I  think this will be a big story for us if we do it well
[08:32] <TheMuso> hno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs?
[08:32] <hno73> how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD?
[08:32] <TheMuso> They will need to be very well explained.
[08:32] <TheMuso> Even then I am not sure.
[08:32] <hno73> TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon
[08:33] <jgrieves> hno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical
[08:33] <crimsun> something less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps
[08:33] <hno73> the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD cover perhaps
[08:34] <TheMuso> Yeah that could work.
[08:34] <hno73> if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format
[08:34] <hno73> like braille even
[08:34] <jgrieves> we thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's?
[08:34] <jgrieves> hno73: great minds think alike :)
[08:34] <hno73> :)
[08:35] <kjcole> Oops.  Minor fires here at the office.  I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of this in the logs.  Sorry 'bout that.
[08:35] <hno73> once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware
[08:35] <jgrieves> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for helping me get most of this straightend up
[08:36] <jgrieves> hno73 i think your right.  Once aware it seems pretty simplistic
[08:36] <hno73> Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE
[08:36] <hno73> cool
[08:36] <hno73> ok, I'm done with my points
[08:36] <hno73> jgrieves: you hade some otems?
[08:36] <TheMuso> For those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought.
[08:36] <hno73> items
[08:37] <jgrieves> the documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with increasing content
[08:37] <hno73> Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel
[08:37] <TheMuso> I can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a braille device, I am unable to help regarding that.
[08:37] <hno73> which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly
[08:37] <jgrieves> TheMuso progress on the /Speakup page?
[08:38] <TheMuso> jgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel.
[08:38] <hno73> jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers
[08:38] <jgrieves> TheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page
[08:39] <hno73> so some testing from our side would be great
[08:39] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[08:39] <jgrieves> are our kernel people sounding optomistic?
[08:39] <TheMuso> I may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it.
[08:40] <hno73> jgrieves: yes indeed
[08:40] <TheMuso> jgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it doesn't really, it should be fine.
[08:40] <hno73> though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :)
[08:40] <jgrieves> hno73: great
[08:40] <TheMuso> I would be happy to give it a workout.
[08:40] <hno73> I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional
[08:40] <jgrieves> I can throw it on a virtual machine
[08:40] <TheMuso> I will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those who want to try it out.
[08:41] <jgrieves> TheMuso great
[08:41] <hno73> Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two
[08:42] <jgrieves> TheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions, anybody else?
[08:42] <jgrieves> TheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they work,
[08:42] <hno73> jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before
[08:43] <jgrieves> hno73 definitely.  Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is written, I want it to be easy to follow
[08:43] <hno73> Has anyone tried it on two acreens?
[08:43] <jgrieves> and eventually scripted
[08:43] <hno73> jgrieves: cool, will do
[08:43] <TheMuso> I haven't as I only have one monitor here.
[08:43] <hno73> awesome :)
[08:44] <jgrieves> hno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :)
[08:44] <hno73> hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :)
[08:45] <hno73> but the 19" ones are good value IMO :)
[08:45] <TheMuso> Indeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day.
[08:46] <jgrieves> so where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper yet?
[08:46] <hno73> jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can fix that
[08:47] <jgrieves> hno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer, but some seem to be at top, others at bottom
[08:47] <hno73> jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that
[08:48] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he encountered something weird.
[08:48] <TheMuso> dholbach: Any progress?
[08:48] <hno73> btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu
[08:48] <jgrieves> TheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both of ours seems to be fine
[08:48] <hno73> using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes
[08:49] <hno73> it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo
[08:49] <hno73> but it's still a bit broken
[08:49] <jgrieves> View > Page Style, very cool!!
[08:49] <hno73> I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis
[08:50] <hno73> (there will be slightly fewer options though)
[08:50] <jgrieves> i like that on the fly action :)
[08:50] <hno73> I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless
[08:50] <jgrieves> TheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it
[08:51] <hno73> So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro
[08:51] <hno73> at the very least :)
[08:51] <TheMuso> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20320
[08:51] <jgrieves> hno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :)
[08:52] <jgrieves> TheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road
[08:52] <hno73> getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from relevant places
[08:52] <jgrieves> hno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers?  TheMuso?
[08:53] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages though.
[08:53] <kjcole> Back.
[08:53] <hno73> jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good
[08:53] <hno73> It's quite hard to fix though :(
[08:53] <jgrieves> TheMuso: cool.  have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus?
[08:54] <hno73> I'll probably need to work with upstream on that
[08:54] <jgrieves> my guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in Windows with Jaws/WindowWise
[08:54] <TheMuso> jgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out.  Haven't tried with 1.5 yet.
[08:54] <jgrieves> TheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website coding
[08:55] <TheMuso> jgrieves: What about speech?
[08:55] <jgrieves> TheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or that really weird...control.thingy they have
[08:55] <TheMuso> With carrot browsing mode?
[08:55] <jgrieves> TheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc
[08:55] <TheMuso> hno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas.
[08:55] <hno73> Thanks everyone :)
[08:55] <jgrieves> hno73: merry Christmas! did u email me?
[08:55] <TheMuso> We will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so.
[08:56] <hno73> jgrieves: earlier today yes
[08:56] <jgrieves> hno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but thanks! that is exactly what i wanted
[08:56] <jgrieves> going into draft number 2
[08:56] <jgrieves> so i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve
[08:57] <jgrieves> not the most active discussion today huh?  were is Daniel?
[08:57] <TheMuso> Good question.
[08:57] <TheMuso> PhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier?
[08:58] <PhantomsDad> TheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to.
[08:58] <TheMuso> We have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been considering testing the KDE accessibility tools.
[08:58] <TheMuso> hmmm ok.
[08:58] <PhantomsDad> The mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not available.
[08:59] <PhantomsDad> Gunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor.
[08:59] <PhantomsDad> He must defend his thesis before it can be released.
[08:59] <jgrieves> PhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE?
[08:59] <PhantomsDad> Gunnar demoed it at aKademy.  I'll get the link..
[09:00] <jgrieves> i know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some apps dont even work with that...
[09:01] <jgrieves> there is the man!
[09:01] <dholbach> i flew out the net, sorry :-(
[09:01] <dholbach> the connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky
[09:02] <jgrieves> i sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :)
[09:02] <TheMuso> hahaha.
[09:02] <TheMuso> dholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility project.
[09:02] <dholbach> oh nice
[09:02] <TheMuso> Have you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff.
[09:02] <dholbach> hello PhantomsDad
[09:03] <PhantomsDad> hello
[09:03] <dholbach> what were you talking about in the time, when i was away?
[09:03] <TheMuso> Since this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this elsewhere?
[09:03] <dholbach> i'll read the irclog
[09:03] <TheMuso> dholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs.
[09:03] <PhantomsDad> Here's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/ http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users
[09:04] <jgrieves> cool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility
[09:05] <TheMuso> jgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching.
[09:05] <TheMuso> Particularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher)
[09:05] <jgrieves> TheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever made the switch because of lack of accessibility
[09:06] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros
[09:06] <jgrieves> TheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher?
[09:06] <jgrieves> linbetwin: how well did it keep focus?
[09:06] <TheMuso> jgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a really good idea.
[09:06] <jgrieves> TheMuso: link on information?  I haven't really heard of it before
[09:07] <linbetwin> jgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering the magnified area (no black blocks)
[09:07] <TheMuso> speech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are available.
[09:08] <jgrieves> PhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page?
[09:08] <jgrieves> TheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now
[09:08] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Indeed.
[09:08] <jgrieves> linbetwin: does it use composite?
[09:08] <TheMuso> I am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver anywhere.
[09:09] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i don't know what composite is
[09:09] <jgrieves> TheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know
[09:09] <jgrieves> linbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major back-end
[09:09] <TheMuso> jgrieves: I might have to.
[09:10] <jgrieves> TheMuso: or build your own :)
[09:10] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i really don't know
[09:11] <linbetwin> but the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag
[09:11] <linbetwin> but it can't be docked to the edge of the screen
[09:12] <jgrieves> linbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work environemtn
[09:12] <linbetwin> and it has a superfluous title bar
[09:12] <jgrieves> linbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds actually works pretty well
[09:13] <jgrieves> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview
[09:13] <TheMuso> Anyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more. :)
[09:14] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a window at the lower bottom of the screen
[09:14] <jgrieves> TheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with you hehe
[09:15] <jgrieves> linbetwin: cool, whatever works for you.  i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used
[09:15] <jgrieves> linbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis
[09:15] <jgrieves> TheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug
[09:16] <jgrieves> TheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these in dapper
[09:17] <jgrieves> TheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation.  I would love your input in the speech part, especially with the console
[09:17] <jgrieves> TheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and better details
[09:18] <linbetwin> jgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag?
[09:18] <jgrieves> linbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle
[09:19] <linbetwin> jgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that something that can be easily fixed?
[09:20] <jgrieves> linbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps?
[09:21] <jgrieves> linbetwin: before running a gtk app, run
[09:21] <jgrieves> export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge
[09:21] <jgrieves> then run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized" everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the AT
[09:23] <linbetwin> for ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work
[09:23] <jgrieves> yep
[09:24] <linbetwin> in FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor
[09:25] <jgrieves> yeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS?
[09:25] <kjcole> Time for some non-Ubuntu work.  Bye...
[09:25] <linbetwin> no, i hope to do that this weekend
[09:26] <linbetwin> bye, kjcole
[09:26] <jgrieves> linbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki
[09:26] <jgrieves> i am trying to follow firefox closely
[09:26] <jgrieves> the sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused
[09:26] <linbetwin> ok
[09:27] <jgrieves> ok lunch for me! see ya
[09:28] <linbetwin> bon appetit! see ya!
[09:29] <jgrieves> hha thanks


[07:09] <ara> good morning all!
[08:36] <ara> morning davmor2
[08:36] <davmor2> Good Morning ara
[08:44] <ara> is anyone doing the upgrade of edubuntu i386?
[08:46]  * ara assumes nobody is
[08:47]  * ara takes the edubuntu upgrade test
[08:48] <ara> to be or not to be
[08:56] <davmor2> no edubuntu amd64bit upgrade :(
[08:58] <davmor2> I'll do one then if someone can put it on we're covered
[08:58]  * ara steps out to grab a coffee
[09:04]  * davmor2 still thinks ara has a coffee shop next door
[09:37] <davmor2> Morning heno
[09:39] <heno> hey davmor2
[09:41] <heno> so we need a RAID test and edubuntu upgrade
[09:49] <davmor2> heno: ara is doing 32bit I'm doing 64bit which got removed by accident we think
[09:49] <ara> heno: I am doing the edubuntu upgrade
[09:50] <davmor2> Then I'm tagging it onto the 32bit with a note which slangasek oked
[09:50] <heno> ara: great, thanks
[09:50] <davmor2> heno: can't help you out with raid server team maybe?
[09:50] <heno> I did 64 bit edubuntu upgrade yesterday
[09:51] <heno> pinging the server team now
[09:52] <heno> soren is on it
[09:53] <davmor2> so that's everything covered then?
[09:55] <heno> it is
[09:55] <heno> we should dig a bit deeper on some of these perhaps though
[09:56] <heno> we've covered existing home, what about driver CD install?
[10:20] <mtholdenss> any testing i can do on my new macbook?
[10:21] <ara> hello mtholdenss
[10:21] <mtholdenss> hey
[10:21] <ara> mtholdenss:  you could try to install jaunty on it and run System Testing (under System->Administration)
[10:22] <ara> mtholdenss: it is a good way to provide a hardware database in Launchpad
[10:22] <mtholdenss> thanks i might do it when the beta comes out tonight
[10:22] <ara> mtholdenss: sure, thanks!
[10:23] <mtholdenss> its the 26th of march here in australia night time, i guess it must have some delay
[10:35] <heno> just tested the accessibility boot options - they seem to work
[11:54] <ara> heno: I didn't know there were accessibility boot options :)
[11:59] <davmor2> Morning fader
[11:59] <fader> davmor2: howdy!
[12:06] <ara> edubuntu i386 upgrade passed
[12:06] <davmor2> Yay full sweep
[12:39]  * ara -> lunch
[12:54] <davmor2> cgregan: Morning Dude hope it's nicer over there than here :)
[12:55] <cgregan> morning davmor2......4C and sunny
[12:56] <cgregan> I don't know if that constitutes better.
[12:56] <davmor2> cgregan: feels like 6.3 and raining
[12:56] <davmor2> xivulon: hello
[12:57] <xivulon> hi davmor2
[12:57] <davmor2> xivulon: I'll be adding some logs to those bugs this afternoon now beta is tested
[12:57] <xivulon> yes please, do you think that is a show stopper?
[12:58] <xivulon> I tested in VM and I do not have any problem
[13:00] <cgregan> davmor2: sounds like we will be importing your day here tomorrow.
[13:00] <davmor2> xivulon: no you just hit continue and it carries on.  It's not major but I think it would be bad for final to still have
[13:00] <davmor2> cgregan: great does that mean we get yours :)
[13:01] <xivulon> davmor2 did you test ISO extraction? As entioned in the bug, the error you reported was due to something else
[13:01] <davmor2> xivulon: I'll add logs from vista and xp too.  Also removal isn't playing nice at all.  That I think is far more important than the cd is ejected issue :)
[13:01] <davmor2> xivulon: I'll look at that after too for you
[13:02] <xivulon> I am aware of uninstallation issues, have started working on them
[13:03] <xivulon> davmor2 thx
[13:03] <davmor2> xivulon: Infact I'll go through all of my wubi bugs and see which what can be confirmed fixed etc
[13:03] <davmor2> -what
[13:05] <xivulon> great
[13:10] <xivulon> by the way in beta bittorrent will be activated for the first time, and you cannot test that without actually generating a special build (with isolist pointing at isolist.ini)
[13:10] <xivulon> I meant: with isolist pointing at alpha-6
[13:11] <xivulon> davmor2 do you know how to compile wuibi?
[14:24] <ara> eeejay: hello :-)
[14:24] <eeejay> hey hey ara
[14:24] <eeejay> ara: what is your last.fm username?
[14:25] <ara> eeejay: areta
[14:26] <ara> eeejay: I am reviewing the screenshot changes (and documenting ubuntu-desktop-testing in the wiki) and as I see, now test methods should return a list (message, screenshot), isn't it?
[14:26] <eeejay> ara: they could return either
[14:26] <ara> eeejay: or none?
[14:27] <eeejay> ara: just a message, or a screenshot too
[14:27] <eeejay> the message is default
[14:27]  * ara gets the dx branch to see an example
[14:29] <ara> eeejay: in notify-osd I just see that you raise AssertionErrors when somehting fails
[14:30] <ara> eeejay: but you're not returnnig a message
[14:30]  * eeejay checks
[14:30] <eeejay> ara: you mean return a message on success?
[14:31] <ara> no, in general
[14:32] <eeejay> ara: the notify_osd.py script raises 4 AssertionErrors, 2 with screenshots, 2 just with messages
[14:32] <eeejay> ara: as for funtion return values, the function only returns on success :)
[14:33] <eeejay> ara: legal return values are either None, or (message, screenshot)
[14:33] <ara> OK, I understand now
[14:33] <eeejay> ara: so the message/screenshot would be logged to the test result, but it would pass
[14:34] <eeejay> ara: I don't have a use for it yet, but it might be useful for us in the future.
[14:34] <ara> eeejay: sure. thanks!
[14:44] <davmor2> c's
[14:52] <eeejay> ara: I think another nice addition would be optional stdout printing, especially stack traces.
[14:54] <ara> eeejay: yes, it would be useful
[15:11] <davmor2> meh still hasn't seen a release announcement
[16:16] <thewrath> hey aredg
[16:16] <aredg> hi
[16:17] <davmor2> netsplits-r-us
[16:18] <thewrath> agreed davmor2
[16:18] <thewrath> what time zone is the ubuntu team in
[16:18] <thewrath> btw
[16:18] <thewrath> i am not sure
[16:18] <davmor2> thewrath: all over
[16:18] <thewrath> oh ok
[16:18] <davmor2> I think it's fair to say they are global :)
[16:18] <thewrath> was not sure if there was an officail time
[16:19] <davmor2> utc
[16:19] <davmor2> which would currently be 4:19
[16:19] <davmor2> pm
[16:19] <thewrath> k
[16:31] <sbeattie> Hrm, anyone able to get to https://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/?
[16:31] <aredg> no
[16:32] <davmor2> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/
[16:32] <davmor2> sbeattie: remove the s
[16:33] <sbeattie> davmor2: doh! stupid awesomebar.
[16:33] <davmor2> :D never mind
[16:35] <aredg> wow, i can't believe transmission is still the default bitorrent client
[16:35] <sbeattie> davmor2: looking at the freesoftware only install test, I thought there was some package checks that we used to make sure it wasn't "contaminated"
[16:35] <davmor2> aredg: why it works :)
[16:36] <aredg> davmor2, there are much better clients that should be chosen imo
[16:37]  * eeejay likes transmission
[16:37]  * eeejay hides
[16:37] <aredg> :O
[16:38] <eeejay> it's simple, has upnp, even a web interface..
[16:38] <aredg> deluge has every transmission has, but better :p
[16:38] <davmor2> aredg: transmission and deluge are the two most complete gnome supported clients gnome also chose transmission which may of been the deciding factor
[16:38] <heno> is the server install supposed to launch aptitude?
[16:39] <heno> it happens just before package installation starts
[16:39] <sbeattie> heno: I think only if you select "manually select packages"
[16:39] <heno> I might have ticked that without noticing, ok
[16:40] <heno> I just selected everything on the list
[16:40]  * sbeattie starts on an alt free software only install to see what actually gets installed.
[16:40] <davmor2> heno: then yes you hit it
[16:40] <sbeattie> heno: ah, yep, last one on the list is manually select.
[16:40] <heno> doing the RAID1 test case in vbox - seems to support multiple disks nicely now :)
[16:41] <sbeattie> heno: yeah, I use vbox for that; though I can only get a total of 3 disks; I'd really like 4 for an accurate raid10 test
[16:42] <heno> sbeattie: is it limited to 3 by vbox itself?
[16:42] <sbeattie> Last time I tried it was.
[16:42]  * sbeattie tries again
[16:43] <heno> yeah, confirmed it too
[16:43] <heno> If you enable the SATA controller it works
[16:43] <sbeattie> right, because it's emulating a primary/secondary ide controller and the cdrom drive is always the secondary master.
[16:44] <sbeattie> Oooh.
[16:44] <sbeattie> Is that in w/jaunty's virtualbox?
[16:46] <heno> sbeattie: 8.10 version from the vbox site running on Jaunty
[16:46] <heno> so not the fully Free software version
[16:46] <sbeattie> heno: ah. support for usb, also, then. Hrm.
[16:47] <heno> yes
[17:04] <arthax0r> hello
[17:05]  * arthax0r is downloading jaunty
[17:06] <arthax0r> how is the upgrade from intrepid?
[17:06] <heno> arthax0r: you can install from the CD and preserve /home
[17:06] <charlie-tca> The one I just ran worked fine
[17:07] <heno> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopExistingHome
[17:07] <heno> sbeattie: what package should I file a bug against when a raid setup fails to bood from a degraded array?
[17:08] <sbeattie> heno: mdadm
[17:08] <heno> sbeattie: thanks
[17:09] <heno> ooh - a ton of untriaged bugs there
[17:09] <arthax0r> i wasn't too concerned about /home..
[17:09]  * arthax0r does backup after all
[17:09] <arthax0r> :>
[17:10] <charlie-tca> heno: when you run cat /proc/mdstat, did the array come back after reconnecting the drives?
[17:10] <arthax0r> thx for the link heno
[17:11] <heno> let me try
[17:11] <charlie-tca> I found I could boot to either drive, but the disconnected one never returned / to the array again
[17:13] <heno> erm, now it works when I boot with just one drive - last time it timed out and dropped me to busybox
[17:13]  * charlie-tca thought it was just my inexperience with RAID
[17:13] <heno> damned Heisenbugs
[17:13] <arthax0r> is this also the place for kubuntu testing?
[17:14] <arthax0r> i think i am going to try them both
[17:14] <arthax0r> personally, i use xmonad or dwm-gtx, but i want to check out kdenlive
[17:15] <arthax0r> currently i use a couple intrepid desktops, and a couple hardy servers
[17:17] <heno> arthax0r: kubuntu testing is very welcome :)
[17:18] <arthax0r> :)
[17:18] <heno> charlie-tca: it's rebuilding the raid now
[17:18] <charlie-tca> so it is me...
[17:19] <heno> charlie-tca: did it never try to rebuild it?
[17:19] <arthax0r> well thanks for the info, i'll report on my progress later :>
[17:19] <charlie-tca> It said it was, but it never did come back.
[17:19] <heno> here is says 'recovery = X%'
[17:19] <heno> ok, I'll let it complete and see
[17:19] <charlie-tca> I ran it 3-4 installations, and I can remove either hard drive the first time.
[17:20] <charlie-tca> Yeah, I had that, about 6 restarts worth. It just never put it back in the array
[17:23] <heno> charlie-tca: how long did you let it sit before restarting - it will need some uptime to rebuild
[17:24] <charlie-tca> anywhere from 5 minutes to 1 hour
[17:25] <charlie-tca> got pretty frustrated
[17:25] <sbeattie> if it had been doing it, you should have seen some progress in /proc/mdstat
[17:26] <sbeattie> and/or via sudo mdadm --detail /dev/mdX
[17:27] <sbeattie> heno: did you have to mdadm --add the device back to the array, or did it come back in automatically?
[17:27] <charlie-tca> What I got was [2/1] [U_] under the active raid line
[17:28] <heno> sbeattie: I came back when I rebooted
[17:28] <heno> or rather, it came back at [2/1] and then worked its way to [2/2]
[17:29] <sbeattie> heno: right.
[17:29] <sbeattie> charlie-tca: I wonder if manually adding it back via 'mdadm /dev/mdX --add /dev/sdXX' would have worked.
[17:30] <charlie-tca> I don't know, but I can do it again today and find out. Like I said, it might just be my knowledge is lacking
[17:33] <charlie-tca> I am adding server to my testing, just because of this, though. I will learn yet
[18:48] <charlie-tca> sbeattie: another installation of server using two hard drives on hardware. The array rebuilt like it should.
[18:49] <sbeattie> hunh
[18:50] <charlie-tca> I blame it on me. Never filed a bug, anyway
[19:48] <diver> ppl, when 9.04 beta will release?
[19:51] <slangasek> this evening
[19:51] <sbeattie> for values of evening that may or may not be appropriate in your timezone.
[19:51] <diver> o thanks )
[20:18] <stgraber> slangasek: bug info balloon are back (report too)
[20:18] <slangasek> w00t
[20:18] <slangasek> "report"?
[20:19] <stgraber> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/report
[20:19] <slangasek> oh, I've never seen that before :)
[20:19] <stgraber> really ? I thought you used that for Intrepid ...
[20:19] <slangasek> not that I recall
[20:20] <stgraber> it gives you an overview of all bugs that have been reported for a milestone and some info from LP
[20:20] <slangasek> yes, that's very useful :)
[20:21] <slangasek> better than my approach of "scrape the build/all/all page, feed all the bug urls to firefox with xargs" :-)
[20:24] <stgraber> slangasek: hmm, indeed :)
[20:25] <stgraber> heno: bug balloon and report are back on the iso tracker
[20:25] <heno> stgraber: whohoo!
[21:07] <jtisme> who is the release manager for jaunty
[21:07] <heno> jtisme: slangasek is
[21:08] <jtisme> heno does he have an email i can send a short msg to
[21:08] <jtisme> about kde regression testing
[21:08] <heno> jtisme: he's in this chan
[21:09] <heno> jtisme: can I help? I'm responsible for testing
[21:10] <jtisme> heno yes is there a regression test suite for kde that is run prior to each release?
[21:10] <jtisme> alpha release that is
[21:10] <heno> jtisme: just manual test cases run in connection with ISO testing
[21:11] <heno> see http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com for cases
[21:11] <jtisme> then a bug report made for any problems, correct?
[21:11] <heno> indeed
[21:12] <jtisme> I am wondering if we could possibly form a group that would perform basic regression tests on kde and somehow have direct access to the developers to fix problems before relases
[21:12] <jtisme> relases=releases
[21:14] <heno> jtisme: that would be welcome. If you are hooked into the QA team and file good bugs then you will have access
[21:14] <heno> I suggest you propose it on the QA mailing list and bring the idea to our next QA meeting
[21:15] <jtisme> hmm i was part of the QA team about 3 releases ago, do you have my info around  jtholmes is the handle
[21:15] <heno> we can also run a KDE testing day (generally Mondays)
[21:15] <heno> ok, cool
[21:15] <jtisme> where is the QA mailing list and am i still part of the testing team or do i need to reregister?
[21:18] <heno> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/ and https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testing
[21:18] <jtisme> ok thanks
[21:42] <jtisme> heno where are the qa mail messages from march 22 to present they are not in the archives
[21:44] <heno> jtisme: are you sure anyone posted since then? that's 4 days ago and we've been release-testing :)
[21:45] <heno> 22nd is the last message in my local mail folder too
[21:46] <jtisme> heno where is the QA meeting info
[21:47] <heno> jtisme: http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com/node/42
[21:47] <jtisme> thanks
[21:48] <heno> agendas and times are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[21:48] <heno> every Wednesday at 17.00 UTC basically
[21:50] <jtisme> thanks heno
[21:50] <heno> np :)


[01:43] <ayan> i'm working on a snap with an executable that calls seccomp().  app armor (i think) blocks it even though the snap was built using 'devmode' confinement.
[01:43] <ayan> (really it is tor-browser.)
[01:50] <ayan> https://git.launchpad.net/~ayan/+git/tor-browser-snap/tree/snapcraft.yaml
[01:54] <ayan> also tor-browser has pretty restrictive file permissions.  i wrote a simple plugin to walk the staged directly and fix the permissoins before creating the snap.  i'm not sure if this is the best way to do it:
[01:54] <ayan> https://git.launchpad.net/~ayan/+git/tor-browser-snap/tree/parts/plugins/x-tor-browser.py
[01:57] <Shibe> will X be bundled with each DEs snap?
[09:03] <Chipaca> sgclark: what hackfest?
[09:03] <Chipaca> sgclark: ah, jamie already responded :-)
[09:03]  * Chipaca still doesn't know what hackfest
[09:07] <Chipaca> croepha: what filesystem are you doing the build on?
[09:08] <Chipaca> ali1234: you can try the all-snap images, but I don't know if we expect them to work yet
[09:09] <Chipaca> ayan: I'd suggest bringing that up on the mailing list (as it'll require input from people that aren't here today)
[09:09] <Chipaca> Shibe: I doubt X will be bundled in snaps. I also doubt a DE will have a snap. But who knows? we'll see where people take it!
[09:10] <Shibe> Chipaca: how else will DEs be installed in a snappy system?
[09:10] <Chipaca> Shibe: in an all-snap system, that's a very good question and one that has been on my mind before
[09:11] <Chipaca> Shibe: all-snap systems are more aimed at IoT-kind of places though, at least until we make snappy rich enough to support things like DEs
[09:11] <Shibe> Chipaca: another thing is, what about dconf? I know that gtk apps use dconf for certain things and also for seeing what gtk theme to use
[09:11] <Chipaca> IoT and servers, i should add
[09:11] <Shibe> will you have to theme gtk on a per-app basis?
[09:11] <Chipaca> that is, ~single-purpose systems
[09:12] <Chipaca> Shibe: a related question: how do you snap a theme?
[09:12] <Shibe> yeah
[09:12] <Shibe> that is indeed a good question
[09:12] <ali1234> another related question is how do you snap development tools?
[09:12] <Chipaca> these are nice juicy questions
[09:12] <ali1234> currently you need a chroot to do any kind of serious development
[09:13] <Chipaca> ali1234: you do?
[09:13] <ali1234> yes
[09:13] <ali1234> there is no snap containing snapcraft
[09:13] <Chipaca> ali1234: in an all-snap system, i presume?
[09:13] <ali1234> yes
[09:13] <Chipaca> ali1234: right
[09:13] <Chipaca> we need to circle back to all-snap systems soonish, to shore up that side of the store
[09:13] <ali1234> all-snap systems are the only type of system worth considering, because if you don't have an all-snap system, you don't need snaps to begin with
[09:14] <Shibe> also btw, how was the size of libreoffice snap reduced from 1.1gb to the regular 200?
[09:14] <ali1234> Shibe: by removing debug symbols
[09:14] <Chipaca> ali1234: well... I disagree, but I can also see why you'd think that
[09:14] <Shibe> ali1234: debug symbols were consisting of that 1.1gb?
[09:14] <ali1234> Chipaca: there's this idea of using snaps to let upstream ship packages themselves whenever they want. this specifically is in my opinion a recipe for disaster if it is done on a regular "as it is now" ubuntu
[09:14] <Chipaca> Shibe: the libreoffice snap that was talked about a lot was built for testing the whole thing and included debug symbols to figure out what went wrong when it did
[09:15] <Shibe> ok
[09:15] <Chipaca> Shibe: the person has since renamed that to libreoffice-debug and built the debug-less libreoffice at 200M
[09:15] <Shibe> well that's nice
[09:15] <ali1234> Chipaca: i've even heard people saying that for example, nvidia could distribute their drivers in a snap...
[09:16] <Chipaca> ali1234: why is it a recipe for disaster?
[09:16] <Shibe> btw will each app bundle mesa individually?
[09:16] <Shibe> I think in flatpak the application recieves the raw device node (/dev/nvidia-uvm on nvidia i think) and the application includes the libgl/mesa
[09:17] <Chipaca> I've got to go, I'll read up when I get back
[09:17] <Chipaca> o/
[09:17] <ali1234> Chipaca: i's a recipe for disaster because it necessitates including dependencies inside the snaps
[09:18] <ali1234> that is a problem which you can ignore as long as snaps don't compose the base system
[09:18] <ali1234> but for all-snap you basically have no choice but to deal with it
[09:18] <ali1234> hence, my worry is that all-snap will be sidelined because it's too hard, and instead we just get a poor compromise that doesn't actually improve things at all
[09:20] <ali1234> to put it another way: "snaps on a classic desktop" is a bit of a cop out, in my opinion
[09:22] <ali1234> i mean sure it's a stepping stone, don't get me wrong... but snap has to go beyond that
[09:22] <ogra_> it is just an additional playground, thats all ... the plans for all snap images in IoT havent changed ... nor has the idea of providing phone and pocket-desktop images
[09:22] <notadrop> hello
[09:23] <ogra_> not sure where you expect the compromise to be
[09:23] <ali1234> i don't expect compromise... i want an all-snap system to be able to do literally everything tht ubuntu can do today
[09:23] <ali1234> without having to install "ubuntu classic" in a chroot
[09:23] <ali1234> because then all you've done is moved the problem
[09:24] <ogra_> it will probably not behave exactly like a classic system ... but you will eventually be able to do all you want
[09:24] <ali1234> it doesn't have to be exactly like it, it just has to do the same things with the same amount of effort :)
[09:25] <ogra_> things in a new world might be done differently, but stil provide your desirent behaviour
[09:25] <ogra_> or results rather
[09:25] <ali1234> and the same amount of disk space? ;)
[09:25] <ogra_> it will  just take a little more time for specific bits
[09:26] <ogra_> why not
[09:28] <ali1234> "why not" -> because developers are lazy :)
[09:28] <ogra_> who knows, probably we might get to a point where they even need less diskspace ... snappy is still very young (compared to 20+ years of deb), i dont see why such improvements shouldnt come in the future
[09:29] <ali1234> 20+ years is too long to wait
[09:29] <ogra_> first of all all basics should be done right ...
[09:29] <ogra_> i didnt say it has to take that long :)
[09:29] <ogra_> just that debs had this time to mature
[09:29] <ali1234> in 20 years people will be complaining that snap is out of date and no good and trying to rewrite it
[09:30] <ogra_> cool :=
[09:30] <ogra_> :)
[09:30] <ogra_> (that means it will still be around ;) )
[09:30] <ali1234> that's best case :)
[09:31] <ogra_> nah, best case is that iin 20 years people will still like snaps because they evloved in the right direction
[09:31] <ali1234> although i feel like if snap just becomes another way to package things for regular ubuntu then it wont be around in 20 years... flatpak will win
[09:31] <ogra_> but the replace in 20 years case is a good one nontheless ;)
[09:31] <ogra_> let the upstreams decide ...
[09:31] <ali1234> you know which one they will choose
[09:32] <ogra_> i see which one they choose today
[09:32] <ali1234> upstreams wont decide it, all the other distros will
[09:32] <ogra_> ??
[09:32] <ogra_> you mean they would denny opensource code in their distro ?
[09:32] <ali1234> no
[09:32] <ogra_> so how will thhey decide anything
[09:32] <ali1234> debian does not deny upstart code in their distro?
[09:32] <ali1234> yet still nobody uses it
[09:33] <ogra_> if snaps are the way an upstream provides hiw stuff and the distro has snap support (even if you need to install it) ... then you will enable it
[09:33] <ogra_> *his
[09:34] <ali1234> if all distros support both, but flatpak works significantly better due to being what the distro itself chooses to ship a majority of packages, then upstreams will choose it too
[09:34] <ogra_> distros are the least bits her that have any influence as long as they dont block snappy to enter their system ... upstreams count
[09:34] <ogra_> if all uppstreams would decide to all go appimage ... what would you think distros would support
[09:35] <ali1234> upstreams will choose whatever is best supported
[09:35] <ogra_> and i'm only talking about the app delivery here ... they will indeed still use whatever base system they want
[09:35] <ogra_> right ...
[09:35] <ogra_> and we're at a point where multiple systems exist
[09:35] <ogra_> lets just see what upstreams will chose
[09:36] <ali1234> upstreams will wait to see what distros choose
[09:36] <ali1234> basically, if distros do not convert to something like all-snap, then upstreams will continue to not use anything
[09:36] <ali1234> afaik flatpak and appimage can't do all-snap?
[09:37] <ogra_> why would any distro go to all-snap
[09:37] <ogra_> not even ubuntu will
[09:37] <ali1234> that's a problem
[09:37] <ogra_> all-snap is for special use-cases
[09:37] <ogra_> ubuntu wont drop traditional deb based installs
[09:37] <ali1234> a distro would go all snap only for one reason: because it is an improvement over the current way of making a distro
[09:37] <ogra_> heh
[09:38] <ali1234> but of course you have to make that be true first
[09:38] <ogra_> i rather think a distro will simply throw out all toplevel apps and will start focusing and improving their work on core ... simply because it frees manppower
[09:38] <ali1234> if that doesn't happen then distros won't do it, and upstreams will just containue shipping tarballs and crappy binaries
[09:39] <ali1234> yes, exactly
[09:39] <ogra_> (why woould a distro care about gimp or libreoffice if upistream already provides a proper way to get it )
[09:39] <ogra_> so in the end it improves life of everyone ...
[09:39] <ali1234> why would a distro care about gcc if upstream provides a proper way to get it?
[09:40] <ogra_> because their existing packaging system requires them to have gcc in their distro
[09:40] <ali1234> answer: because as distro maintainers they actually need to use it
[09:40] <ogra_> yes, and there are existing established mechanisms to do so to build a distro
[09:40] <ali1234> so it boils down to: which next gen package system supports development tools best?
[09:41] <ali1234> and currently the answer is none of them
[09:41] <ogra_> huh
[09:41] <ogra_> snapcraft is well supported :)
[09:41] <ogra_> and it fulfills my needs as a developer
[09:41] <ali1234> oh, there is a snap containing snapcraft?
[09:41] <ogra_> nope
[09:41] <ali1234> well then
[09:41] <ogra_> there will likely be one (thats trivial)
[09:42] <ogra_> but thats not the point
[09:42] <ali1234> can i make an ubuntu builder using all-snap?
[09:42] <ali1234> what about a launchpad snap?
[09:42] <ogra_> you have to ask the launchpad people if they plan to snap it ... else ... feel free to go ahead
[09:42] <ali1234> these are the kind of things distro maintainers will want
[09:43] <ogra_> sure
[09:43] <ali1234> if you don't give them this, they won't care about supporting snap well enough that upstreams will want to use it
[09:43] <ogra_> i dont see why they couldnt get it
[09:43] <ali1234> i hope they will be able to in the future
[09:43] <ogra_> if someone asks ... or if someone even sends code for this, it will happen
[09:43] <ali1234> they're not going to write it themselves
[09:43] <ali1234> developers are lazy remember?
[09:44] <ogra_> havent said that :)
[09:44] <ali1234> no, i did
[09:44] <ali1234> distros won't accept it unless it is spoon fed to them
[09:44] <ogra_> the point is that the demand needs to be expressed ... which happpens via whishlist bugs usually :)
[09:44] <ogra_> and these get fixed at some point
[09:45] <ogra_> and again, i dont see why distros would need it
[09:45] <ali1234> that's not the point
[09:45] <ogra_> snap is not there to replace distros
[09:45] <ali1234> it should be
[09:45] <ali1234> because distros suck
[09:46] <ali1234> distros dont need to do anything
[09:46] <ali1234> distros didn't need systemd, they chose it because it made their life easier
[09:46] <ogra_> sure
[09:46] <ali1234> imagine the average guy packaging software for debian
[09:47] <ali1234> how does snap make their life easier?
[09:47] <ogra_> why does he package for debian
[09:47] <ogra_> and what
[09:47] <ogra_> i dont see why a systemd debian packager would care for snap
[09:47] <ali1234> not systemd
[09:48] <ogra_> but i also dont see the need for a gimp package in debian if upstream already provides a snap and debian has snap support available
[09:48] <ali1234> let's take as an example gcc... or maybe clang
[09:49] <ogra_> yeah, they are components snapcraft uses when you roll your package :)
[09:49] <ali1234> okay
[09:49] <ali1234> so as the clang packager for debian, how does making sure my package works correctly with snapcraft make my life easier?
[09:49] <ogra_> and will still be available through distro channels, since the distro itself needs them to build the distro
[09:50] <ogra_> why would you do that ?
[09:51] <ali1234> yes, that is what i am asking
[09:51] <ogra_> the snapcraft maintainers will
[09:51] <ali1234> who are the snapcraft maintainers?
[09:51] <ogra_> if someone uses a snap with clang and hits a bug, he will file it and either the snapcraft maintainers or the person with the problem will eventually write code to fix it
[09:51] <ogra_> as clang upstream you simply have to accept the patches
[09:51] <ali1234> or you know.. they will just use flatpak instead
[09:52] <ogra_> what for
[09:52] <ali1234> instead of snap
[09:52] <ali1234> or they mght just not bother at all
[09:52] <ogra_> why would you package a complier in an app delivery system instread of the build tool for the app delivery system
[09:53] <ali1234> because a compiler is an app?
[09:53] <ogra_> (i dont see why it wouldnt be possible to snap up gcc or clang, i just dont see the benefit of it)
[09:54] <ali1234> if you can't see the benefit of it, then why do you expect anyone else to?
[09:54] <ogra_> ?
[09:54] <ogra_> i dont ?
[09:54] <ali1234> and if you don't expect anyone else to see the benefit, why do you expect anyone to use snap at all?
[09:54] <ogra_> i think snapping compilers is pointless ...
[09:54] <ogra_> you are the one who claims it isnt :)
[09:54] <ali1234> okay, where do you draw the line?
[09:55] <ali1234> what about secondary build tools like make or cmake?
[09:55] <ogra_> at the level where the distro doesnt provide the bits to build itself
[09:56] <ali1234> ultimately my point is that "next generation packaging tool" will require support from *everyone* to be successful. it won't get that support unless it offers something to everyone it needs support from
[09:57] <ogra_> what i can imagine is that you eventually have tool bundles ... like "qt-build-env" that comes with all tools you need in a snap and offers you a high level way to work on your project ... more like sdks than single tools
[09:57] <ali1234> that would be an excellent step along the way
[09:58] <ali1234> and already a massive improvement over what we have now for a large number of people
[09:58] <ogra_> right ... i dont see that gcc standalone would make much sense ... but in context of such a bundle it would be one tool that would be used in the process
[09:58] <ali1234> installing an ubuntu-sdk snap would sure be nicere than an ubuntu-sdk chroot
[09:59] <ogra_> thats an implementation detail
[09:59] <ali1234> gcc standalone would make sense... there are plenty of use-cases where you dont need anything else
[09:59] <ali1234> like developing for arm microcontrollers for example
[09:59] <ali1234> i guess you might include a tiny libc in that too
[10:00] <ali1234> so like avr-gcc/avr-libc
[10:00] <ogra_> you could have a snap that mounts your project dir inside an lxd container and execs the build process there when you issue the build command ... all you as developer should care about is that you can work on your code and issue a command to build or debug the code ...
[10:00] <ali1234> i regularly use binutils standalone too... since it has a decompiler
[10:01] <ali1234> and strace
[10:01] <ogra_> or it could be a chroot ... or a cloud instance or whatever :)
[10:01] <ali1234> but here is the thing
[10:02] <ali1234> having a snap which contains a full ubuntu chroot with every dev tool ever installed inside it violates the "uses the same amount of disk space" principle
[10:03] <ogra_> whats that principle exactly ? :)
[10:03] <ali1234> the one i invented
[10:03] <ogra_> (also, why in the world would you build such a thing)
[10:03] <ali1234> i wouldn't... i would just use regular ubuntu
[10:03] <ali1234> but you want people to use snap right?
[10:03] <ogra_> and thats fine
[10:03] <ogra_> as a delivery mechanism for their products
[10:04] <ali1234> here's the thing
[10:04] <ogra_> and if there is a bundled snap that provides a specialzed build env for their products that eases their life by bundling, then too
[10:04] <ali1234> i won't really trust snap as a delivery mechanism until i see the software i use delivered with it
[10:05] <ogra_> thats a weird POV i must say
[10:05] <ali1234> i don't think it is
[10:05] <ogra_> i want to get my shit done ... whatever makes that easiest to me is what i use ...
[10:05] <ali1234> nobody wants to be an early adopter
[10:05] <ogra_> and i want to get my stuff inot hands of users
[10:06] <ogra_> these are two distonct requirements
[10:06] <ali1234> well if you want to get your stuff into the hands of users then you pick android apks...
[10:06] <ogra_> i dont see why they would have to be fulfilled by the same thing
[10:06] <ogra_> except that i dont develop android apps
[10:07] <ali1234> then you cant really make an argument for picking tools based on distribution
[10:07] <ogra_> (though i dont see why snapcraft culdnt have android execution env support
[10:07] <ogra_> )
[10:07] <ogra_> like i dont see why snappy couldnt have a wine execution env ... so that windows applications could be delivered
[10:08] <ogra_> s/snappy/snapcraft
[10:09] <ogra_> in any case i see the two parts as distinct steps ... development vs delivery
[10:09] <ali1234> i don't
[10:09] <ali1234> there is too much overlap
[10:10] <ogra_> not sure where
[10:10] <ali1234> where does a tool like glade fall?
[10:10] <ogra_> they are two sepearate steps
[10:10] <ali1234> what about text editors
[10:10] <ali1234> what about an IDE?
[10:10] <ogra_> what about them
[10:10] <ali1234> are they a development tool, or something that should be delivered as an app?
[10:11] <ogra_> no, they are a tool that shoulld be part of a dev-env snap as i described above
[10:11] <ali1234> so you would just have a gigantic snap with every development tool in it?
[10:11] <ogra_> why would you use glade standalone
[10:11] <ogra_> withhout buulding somethign with it
[10:12] <ogra_> no
[10:12] <ali1234> why would i want glade installed if i am writing a Qt application?
[10:12] <ogra_> why would i put every development tool into it
[10:12] <ali1234> okay, which development tools would you put in it?
[10:12] <ogra_> i would put the tools that fit the project into it
[10:12] <ali1234> so each developer would need to make their own monolithic development tools snap?
[10:12] <ogra_> if there is a glade app it will likely buuld gtk stuff
[10:12] <ali1234> with whatever tools they want in it
[10:13] <ogra_> so i would put the gtk build deps, a compiler and whatever else is needed into it ... along with glade itself
[10:13] <ali1234> what is the developer of qgtkstyle supposed to do?
[10:13] <ogra_> i wouldnt put Qt libs in
[10:14] <ogra_> dunno ... how many are there :)
[10:14] <ogra_> they would probably take my snap and enhance it
[10:14] <ali1234> probably about four or five... you know like every open source project ever
[10:14] <ogra_> because that just means two extra lines in the snapcraft.yaml i provide
[10:14] <ali1234> yeah and then waiting six hours for all that stuff to build :)
[10:15] <ali1234> this does not sound very apealing to developers to me
[10:15] <ogra_> dunno why you would have to wait 6h for a snap to be built by snapcraft
[10:16] <ogra_> i havent seen such a snapcraft project yet :)
[10:16] <ogra_> (though they will undoubtly exist some day)
[10:17] <ali1234> because you removed half the stuff from the distro because it isn't needed any more
[10:17] <ali1234> can you build a snap out of other snaps?
[10:17] <ogra_> also why do you care ... as that potential glade developer you just snap install glade-dev-env
[10:18] <ogra_> or as the one using qtgtk crossover stuf you install glade-and-qt-dev-env from someone else
[10:18] <ali1234> that ends with every application having it's own dev-env snap
[10:18] <ogra_> ?
[10:19] <ali1234> in the same way that currently every snap needs to have a copy of all it's dependencies embedded
[10:19] <ali1234> the same thing ends up happening in the -dev snaps
[10:19] <ogra_> dev-env ...
[10:20] <ali1234> yes, -dev-env
[10:20] <ogra_> you use a toolkit, so you have the bits needed included
[10:20] <ali1234> yeah except that in the real world just using a toolkit is not enough
[10:21] <ogra_> well, you define what else is needed in yur snapcraft yaml
[10:21] <ali1234> so then you fork the toolkit dev-env snap, add that one extra library you need, and rebuild it, and now you have a unique dev-env for your app
[10:21] <ogra_> or your toolkit pffers you to add the needed bits on demand ;)
[10:21] <ogra_> *offers
[10:21] <ali1234> snapcraft can only install what the distro includes
[10:22] <ogra_> s/toolkit/dev-env/
[10:22] <ali1234> and we removed all non-build-essential things from the distro because snap is way better, remember?
[10:22] <ogra_> and ?
[10:22] <ali1234> and so the only way to get the thing you need is as a snap
[10:22] <ali1234> but you're not going to snap development tools
[10:23] <ogra_> i dont need the distro to have my dev-env package use the upstream git tree of Qt
[10:23] <ogra_> i can just define it in my snapcraft.yaml to use that
[10:24] <ali1234> snapcraft itself is not available in a snap...
[10:24] <ogra_> as i said, that will change
[10:24] <ali1234> so first thing you have to do is make a snap with snapcraft in it
[10:24] <ogra_> but thats  a minor detail
[10:24] <ali1234> it's not exactly minor in my opinion
[10:24] <ogra_> again .. snap is just a delivery mechanism
[10:25] <ali1234> t isn't really though
[10:25] <ogra_> rolling a snapcraft snap is likely not very hard ...
[10:26] <ogra_> just takes time that nobody has right now because thats currently not really a pressing prob for anyone
[10:26] <ali1234> tar.gz is a delivery mechanism
[10:27] <ogra_> the 50 or so upstreams that started fiddling with snaps over the last two weeks or so surely didnt have issues with using snapcraft in its current state
[10:27] <ali1234> heh
[10:27] <ali1234> well, i hit problems at every turn
[10:28] <ogra_> file bugs :)
[10:28] <ali1234> but i am not just trying to ship packages on standard ubuntu
[10:28] <ogra_> right
[10:28] <ogra_> and i doubt you will ever see gcc go away as a deb
[10:28] <ogra_> or make
[10:29] <ali1234> i don't want to see that
[10:29] <ali1234> what i want is for apt to be a thing that is only used by snapcraft
[10:30] <ali1234> and every single byte of binary code on my drive to be installed by snap
[10:30] <ogra_> well, in certain setups that will be the case
[10:30] <ali1234> in *every* setup
[10:30] <ali1234> and without having loads of dupes of the same thing installed
[10:32] <ali1234> right now i have about 10 copies of gcc installed and i'm not even using snaps yet
[10:32] <ogra_> why do you have that ?
[10:33] <ali1234> several different cross compilers
[10:34] <ali1234> the problem is that everyone ships monolithic development SDKs
[10:34] <ali1234> for example http://wiibrew.org/wiki/DevkitPPC
[10:35] <ali1234> you know what would solve this problem?
[10:35] <ali1234> if upstream gcc released a snap for every release/host/target combination
[10:35] <ali1234> a standalone gcc snap
[10:36] <ogra_> well, write a snapcraft.yaml and send it to them ... i'm sure they wouldnt refuse
[10:37] <ogra_> (i still dont see the need ... you would likely also want make, binutils and such stuff in such a snap)
[10:38] <ali1234> yes
[10:38] <ali1234> but i'd only need one
[10:38] <ogra_> (probably even libc)
[10:38] <ali1234> instead of having 10 different ones
[10:39] <ali1234> like currently ubuntu has packages for mingw which i use
[10:39] <ali1234> it doesn't have one giant package that also includes make
[10:39] <ali1234> that would be a step backwards in my opinion
[10:39] <ogra_> well ...
[10:40] <ogra_> i think we are back at the beginning of the conversation now
[10:40] <ali1234> yes
[10:41] <ogra_> deduplication or whatever will surely be looked at at some point
[10:42] <ogra_> until then, just use a classic system or a classic shell in an all-snaps system (which should be back when we have actual images)
[10:43] <ali1234> 99% of the software i write is for my own use
[10:45] <ali1234> so for me, snappy has to be more than just a distribution system
[10:45] <ali1234> because once i build the software i already have it
[12:59] <ogra_> bah
[13:00] <ogra_> ogra@styx:~$ sudo snap remove telegram-sergiusens
[13:00] <ogra_> error: cannot remove "telegram-sergiusens": snap "telegram-sergiusens" has changes in progress
[13:00] <ogra_> seems the panel systray icon keeps running which confuses snapd .. now i cant either install or remove it
[13:01]  * ogra_ tries a reboot
[13:03] <ogra_> hmm, nope
[13:05] <ogra_> funnily the snap mount is definitely gone after reboot
[13:10] <ogra_> ah, but snap install works again ... something at leat
[13:10] <ogra_> *least
[14:52] <aisrael> I'm having trouble getting my wireless dongle to work after upgrading to kernel 3.19.1-12. I'd installed linux-firmware_1.158_all.deb, but even after reinstalling it the only modules I have are for 3.19.0-51. Any idea what I'm missing?
[17:56] <ehbello> hello!
[17:56] <ehbello> I was packaging my first snap following ubuntu guides about snapcraft but it does not install in Ubuntu Core 15.04/stable
[17:56] <ehbello> It seems to be incompatible
[17:56] <ehbello> what version of Ubuntu Core must I use?
[17:59] <ehbello> "failed to install: open /tmp/read-file847258171/unpack/meta/package.yaml: no such file or directory"
[18:01] <ehbello> I'm using Ubuntu 16.04 to develop this snap
[18:35] <ehbello> ok... I answer to myself... Ubuntu 16.04 has snapcraft 2.x and Ubuntu Core 15.04/Stable has snapcraft 1.x but still there is no release of 16.04
[18:39] <tsimonq2> ehbello: snapd =/ snapcraft
[18:40] <tsimonq2> ehbello: you should be looking at the all-snap images anyways
[18:42] <ehbello> tsimonq2: i'm sorry... i mean snapd, obviously
[20:21] <ehbello> @tsimonq2: ok, all-snap images... I now understand what it means: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2016-January/001400.html
[20:21] <nothal> ehbello: No such command!
[20:21] <ehbello> tsimonq2: ok, all-snap images... I now understand what it means: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2016-January/001400.html
[20:22] <ehbello> tsimonq2: thanks
[20:22] <ehbello> :D
[21:28] <tsimonq2> ehbello: nice :)
[21:28] <tsimonq2> you get everything squared away?
[21:39] <ehbello> tsimonq2: I get an error following this example to generate a "stable" release: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/PublicationNotes#Image_generation_.2816_and_higher.29
[21:39] <ehbello> tsimonq2: 'failed to install "canonical-pc" from "stable": canonical-pc failed to install: exit status 2'
[21:40] <ehbello> tsimonq2: how can I get a valid list of values for 'gadget' parameter?
[21:50] <ehbello> tsimonq2: answer: https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/gadget/ :)
[22:03] <tsimonq2> ehbello: to be honest, I don't know
[22:03] <tsimonq2> oh nice :D
[22:05] <ehbello> tsimonq2: ok, thanks anyway :D
[22:11] <ehbello>
[22:11] <ehbello>
[22:55] <ehbello> tai271828: FYI: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2016-April/001735.html
[22:56] <ehbello> tai271828: sorry
[22:56] <ehbello> tsimonq2: FYI: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2016-April/001735.html
[22:56] <ehbello> tsimonq2:  this link is needed to fix the problem:`ln -s /bin/true /usr/local/bin/udevadm`
[23:09] <tsimonq2> oh cool
[23:09] <tsimonq2> that's good that you got it fixed :)