[16:20] -queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: iperf (xenial-proposed/universe) [2.0.5+dfsg1-2 => 2.0.5+dfsg1-2ubuntu0.1] (edubuntu)


[10:37] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[12:23] <markjones> *cough*
[12:23]  * brobostigon gets markjones some tissues.
[12:24] <brobostigon> hello markjones :)
[12:24] <markjones> helo
[12:26] <markjones> cgriff: what did you want me for?
[16:43] <Guest13731> markjones: When?
[17:51] <brobostigon> helo everyone,
[18:09] <cgriff> brobostigon: Buenos dias
[18:25] <brobostigon> helo cgriff :)
[18:52] <brobostigon> it is sad isnt it, when all bbc south have to resort to, is a missing lama, news must be pretty bad.


[06:33] <Unit193> Mirv: Hello!  I don't suppose you're likely to sponsor an update for Synergy into universe?
[06:37] <Mirv> Unit193: sure I'd be likely to sponsor. it'd help up restoring my karma for being a slightly too busy for proper patch pilotting this year so far.
[06:38] <Mirv> Unit193: just hit me with a link and I'll look at it
[06:40] <Unit193> Mirv: Slight "problem" with it, I did the update for myself and later sent to the Debian maintainer, so it's a little more extensive: dget http://sigma.unit193.net/source/synergy_1.6.2-0vanir1.dsc (have a debdiff too, and think in a PPA somewhere if that'd help.)  You can back away slowly now if you'd like. :)
[06:52] <Mirv> Unit193: seems reasonable so far, looking at debdiff :) so the link-with-pthread not needed anymore? if the Debian maintainer accepts it, we could do a full sync from Debian then later
[06:52] <Mirv> oh no it's actually there, just renamed and brought from Ubuntu
[06:52] <Mirv> right
[06:54] <Unit193> Mirv: Anything besides dropping the dbg package need done?
[06:58] <Mirv> Unit193: well we do have -dbg packages in Ubuntu, I don't think that hurts? so far I've just change the version number to ubuntu1 and changed the maintainer field to xsbc-original-maintainer plus added ubuntu developers
[06:59] <Unit193> Mirv: Well, if Debian doesn't accept it, it's delta.
[07:00] <Mirv> oh and added the previous Ubuntu changelog entry back
[07:00] <Mirv> Unit193: oh, right, then it's better to drop
[07:01] <Mirv> it's also binary new. if the Debian maintainer wants it, he can have it and we get it via sync
[07:54] <Mirv> Unit193: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/synergy/1.6.2-0ubuntu1
[07:57] <Unit193> Wowzers, danke Mirv!
[07:59] <Mirv> bitte schön


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[09:39] <BluesKaj> 'Morming folks
[09:40] <BluesKaj> 'Morning even
[09:49] <acheronuk> morning BluesKaj
[09:52] <BluesKaj> Hi acheronuk
[10:32] <alleehol> Morning
[12:36] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project xenial_unstable_print-manager build #186: STILL UNSTABLE in 10 min: http://kci.pangea.pub/job/xenial_unstable_print-manager/186/
[12:38] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Yippee, build fixed!
[12:38] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project merger_print-manager build #730: FIXED in 18 sec: http://kci.pangea.pub/job/merger_print-manager/730/
[14:32] <jimarvan> ...calm before the storm...
[14:32] <jimarvan> :D
[14:33] <blaze> calm before the calm
[14:34] <acheronuk> calm before the meeting
[14:37] <clivejo> hi blaze
[14:37] <blaze> hi
[14:37] <clivejo> think I got those two projects added to KCI
[14:38] <clivejo> we had to rename the projects as kdev-php due to that being their name upstream
[14:38] <clivejo> the packages being built will however remain the same
[14:39] <clivejo> http://kci.pangea.pub/job/merger_kdev-python/
[14:39] <clivejo> http://kci.pangea.pub/job/merger_kdev-php/
[14:39] <blaze> I see
[14:40] <blaze> where can I help?
[14:40] <jimarvan> :D
[14:41] <clivejo> well the KCI takes the lastest source code from KDE git and puts it into out packaging
[14:41] <clivejo> if they fail to build you can submit a merge request to the packaging for fixes
[14:42] <blaze> you mean latest changeset or latest release?
[14:42] <clivejo> well KCI it currently only building master
[14:42] <clivejo> Im hoping to figure out a way to start to build stable as well
[14:44] <clivejo> but next step for me is to get 5.0.2 all packaged
[14:44] <clivejo> tested and uploaded to zesty
[14:44] <clivejo> and get it backported
[14:45] <clivejo> ovidiuflorin was wanting to have a daily build of kdevelop for his testing
[15:20] <soee> https://www.kde.org/announcements/plasma-5.8.3.php
[15:41] <Snowhog> clivejo: Reference your post on KFN this morning about issues being experienced by at least one of our members trying to install 17.04. I created a VM and attempted to install it as well. See https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showthread.php?71029-Zesty-Testing&p=394678&viewfull=1#post394678 as I too have issues with it.
[15:54] <clivejo> Snowhog: apparently its a known problem LP 1637985
[15:55] <clivejo> currently doing a respin with a proposed fix
[15:59] <acheronuk> Think Snowhog is saying for him the live session doesn't even get to the desktop?
[16:00] <Snowhog> acheronuk: That is correct; no desktop is reached.
[16:01] <acheronuk> Snowhog: just tried todays image in VB, and while there is a longer delay on the K splash scree than I might expect, the live session did load for me
[16:01] <acheronuk> install still fails with the other bug clivejo mentioned though
[16:03] <Snowhog> acheronuk: At here, I get to the screen with the background and the K gear logo, with the progress loading bar below it. The bar never gets to the end before the screen fades to black, with no mouse cursor and not even able to drop to a tty.
[16:05] <acheronuk> 2048 MB main memory allocated here in my VM and 64MB graphics mem. 2 cores used for the VM
[16:05] <acheronuk> VirtualBox often does seem temperamental loading plasma, and it's not always very clear why
[16:08] <Snowhog> acheronuk: That's interesting! I forced stopped the VM then when in and configured it to use two cores (I've always set up my VM's with just 1 core). Saved and restarted 17.04. It went way faster and reached the Desktop. Why would it fail with just a single core processor?
[16:11] <acheronuk> Snowhog: plasma does sometimes have some odd things where timing off different components loading out of expected order messes up the session load. With 5.7 that happened when some things on fast machines loaded too quickly, but could maybe be the case when things load slower than expected perhaps?
 Well, clivejo, are we gonna get Plasma 5.8.2 or 5.8.3 uploaded?
 I can't be at tonight's meeting. :(
[16:16] <clivejo> tsimonq2: have they been staged, tested yet?
 Just released.
 I can stage it later?
 Whatever you want to do, you're the guy with upload access. ;)
 And it would be a good idea to get Frameworks in Zesty first so Plasma 5.8.3 builds against 5.27 in staging.
 So in my honest opinion clivejo, we should get Frameworks good to go ASAP.
[16:19]  * mamarley has been using the staged FW 5.27 since immediately after it was staged and has encountered 0 problems.
[16:20]  * acheronuk is has had no issues with 5.27 either
[16:20]  * clivejo is has had no issues with 5.27 either
[16:21] <acheronuk> lol!
[16:21] <clivejo> until you go to build stuff on top of them
[16:21] <clivejo> peruse for example
[16:22] <clivejo> has a build dep on libkf5kio-dev
[16:22] <clivejo> but we dont have that
[16:22] <clivejo> we only have kio-dev
[16:23] <clivejo> because Ive been told doing a debian merge is a waste of time and is dangerous
[16:23] <clivejo> yet both Debian and Neon have these
[16:24] <clivejo> this is just one example of quite a few renamed packages
[16:25] <clivejo> libkf5doctools-dev is another
[16:25] <acheronuk> well whether that is fixed via a merge or manually changing put packaging, we certainly do not want to get too out of sync with the package naming conventions others are using.
[16:25] <clivejo> acheronuk: thats my point
[16:25] <Snowhog> clivejo: Okay, with two cores for my VM, it loaded to the Desktop just fine. Installing however fails with the LP bug you cited.
[16:26] <clivejo> Snowhog: that should be fixed in tomorrows iso
[16:26] <acheronuk> clivejo: well, need a list of them and a strategy to sort them then
[16:27] <clivejo> acheronuk: well as you know, I wanted to do a manual merge over a week ago
[16:28] <clivejo> when both you and I had time to do them
[16:29] <clivejo> anyway, Im waiting for decisions to be made at the meeting tonight
[16:29] <acheronuk> yep. sadly I've been a bit busy since then. I've seen the discussions though
[16:29] <acheronuk> tonight is not a technical meeting though?
[16:30] <clivejo> once the goals are made clear, Ill see what I can do to help
[16:30] <Snowhog> clivejo: I'll check tomorrow. Thanks.
[16:31] <acheronuk> In this meeting we SHOULD NOT DISCUSS:
[16:31] <acheronuk>     technical implementation of anything
[16:31] <acheronuk>     go into in depth details about how to do a specific task, that involved dev or packaging
[16:32] <acheronuk> oh. ok. we will need to decide how to sort this, as if we don't it will come back to bite us on the behind even harder later
[16:34] <clivejo> yes, Ive always believed that Debian is our upstream (packaging wise)
[16:34] <clivejo> if this has changed, I have not got the memo
[16:35] <acheronuk> we are always going to have some differences, and some that we may want to keep and maintain, but basic stuff like -dev package names we need to get synced really.
[16:35] <clivejo> acheronuk: well that is my main issue here
[16:36] <clivejo> and I need clarification on it to go any further
[16:43] <acheronuk> periodic debian merges was the way to smooth out and catch these differences in a consistent and reliable systematic way. without that we are left with random and chance cherry picking when we happen to notice or come across things, which seems like a recipe for chaos of it's own sort
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[16:46] <acheronuk> merging is often far from perfect, but done with care and a bit of thought, a least worst option among imperfect options
[16:47] <acheronuk> or how it seems to me anyway....
[16:49] <clivejo> great!
[16:49] <clivejo> !info llvm-3.6-dev xenial
[16:49] <clivejo> !info llvm-3.7-dev xenial
[16:50] <clivejo> !info llvm-3.8-dev xenial
[16:50] <clivejo> !info llvm-3.9-dev xenial
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[18:28] <santa_> clivejo: I asked you a question yesterday
[18:30] <santa_> [17:22] <clivejo> but we dont have that
[18:30] <santa_> [17:22] <clivejo> we only have kio-dev
[18:30] <santa_> [17:23] <clivejo> because Ive been told doing a debian merge is a waste of time and is dangerous
[18:30] <santa_> [17:23] <clivejo> yet both Debian and Neon have these
[18:30] <santa_> regarding this, the tooling stripping the dangerous breaks is ready
[18:30] <santa_> also you saw perfectly what happened with kservice, a dupe Breaks got into the control file unnoticed
[18:31] <santa_> we only realized that when we built the package
[18:31] <santa_> so let me clarify what is the situation
[18:32] <santa_> about one week ago, doing a plain git merge would have been a bad idea
[18:32] <santa_> but now we have a tooling to make the marges a bit more feasible
[18:33] <santa_> * merges
[18:34] <santa_> still, we this tooling we will get merge conflicts on each and every package
[18:35] <santa_> therefore merging *all* the frameworks before uploading 5.27 would delay the upload of 5.27
[18:37] <santa_> in case you, clivejo, can/want to upload 5.27
[18:39] <santa_> (and after that upload we can work on the merges, until 5.28 arrives this saturday)
[18:40] <ahoneybun> santa_, I thought we had agreed on working on the merges
[18:41] <ahoneybun> then move to 5.27 or 5.28
[18:41] <santa_> ahoneybun: it seems cive changed his mind
[18:42] <santa_> I have the impression that you guys are quite confused about how to handle this
[18:43] <santa_> as I say, there are 72 frameworks and all of them have conflicts @ merging
[18:43] <ahoneybun> but we can't build some apps without the merges
[18:43] <santa_> then you can merge *only* the few required frameworks to do that and go ahead
[18:44] <santa_> but it's not feasible to merge the 72
[18:44] <ahoneybun> we are going to have to at some point
[18:44] <santa_> yes, and we can do it slowly after uploading 5.27
[18:45] <santa_> and after 5.28 too
[18:45] <santa_> this way we don't hinder the uploads of new versions and we get the things merged as well
 but we can't build some apps without the merges
[18:47] <santa_> what applications?
[18:47] <ahoneybun> most from what I hear
[18:47] <ahoneybun> or understand
[18:48] <santa_> that's what I asked yesterday, and I got ignored
[18:48] <ahoneybun> I know a few 3rd party ones can't be built
[18:48] <santa_> I also wasn't told about this when we discussed that the last sunday
[19:17] <ahoneybun> I
[19:20] <ahoneybun> santa_, I'm tired of the disagreements
[19:21] <santa_> this is not my fault
[19:21] <ahoneybun> we do not need this stress of being pulled in different directions
[19:21] <ahoneybun> I never said it was
[19:21] <ahoneybun> let's try to be civil in the Vision meeting later
[19:22] <ahoneybun> ( I can't go because of class ) but I'll try to keep up
 Hello everybody. In about an hour the Kubuntu Vision meeting will start. In this meeting we plan to discuss the vision of Kubuntu: Who we are, what are we doing, why are we doing this? and many more things. Agenda here: https://community.kde.org/Kubuntu/Vision We invite you all to attend. The meeting will take place in http://kubuntu.blindsidenetworks.net/kubuntu/ Room 1, use your own username (what ever you want), password
 If only I could get into the wiki... :( :( :(
[20:17] <clivejo> password: welcome ^^
 @tsimonq2 the wiki is open
[20:17] <acheronuk> kde wiki?
 But I'm locked out...
[20:18] <acheronuk> shouldn't be if you have a kde id?
 the wiki is open for reading
 It should be open with a KDE Identity
[20:22] <acheronuk> I can log in and have it remember that login in Firefox
[20:22] <acheronuk> so technically here it seems ok
[20:35] <soee> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=mesa-13&num=1
 You may use this link for quick access to the meeting: https://connect.rna1.blindsidenetworks.com/invite/to?c=BinfpTVNz8NUsGlG5z4jI4VkBdir5kC5jYa_irG38S0&m=Kubuntu+Room+-+1&t=1478031678698&u=kubuntu
[21:00] <valorie> notes for the meeting: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10M-hYkzHBLnPihbgk6J-u9QcYVW2y8U-jhnjo3rhq_Y/edit?usp=sharing
[21:01] <valorie> eeek, even chrome is failing on me
[21:02] <valorie> download failed on flash is all it will say
 on chrome?
 let's give it 5 more minutes to solve this and the we'll switch to IRC
 then*
[21:04] <valorie> on chrome, yes
[21:08] <clivejo> Ok meeting going to be here
[21:08] <acheronuk> ok. in here now?
[21:08] <santa_> allright
[21:09]  * genii makes a large pot of coffee
[21:09] <ovidiuflorin> Ok
[21:09] <ovidiuflorin> Hello everybody
[21:09] <acheronuk> evening :)
[21:09] <ovidiuflorin> [21:10] <ovidiuflorin> This is the Kubuntu vision meeting
[21:10] <ovidiuflorin> with the agenda: https://community.kde.org/Kubuntu/Vision
[21:10] <ovidiuflorin> please all take a look
[21:10] <ovidiuflorin> does anybody have some initial questions about the agenda?
[21:11] <valorie> hi Laura
[21:12] <valorie> notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10M-hYkzHBLnPihbgk6J-u9QcYVW2y8U-jhnjo3rhq_Y/edit?usp=sharing
[21:12] <valorie> everybody is free to edit there
[21:12] <ovidiuflorin> Thank you valorie
[21:12] <genii> ovidiuflorin: Who decides if the meeting is straying offtrack into technical details as the agenda states it should not, the chair?
[21:12] <ovidiuflorin> genii: I'd say yes
[21:13] <valorie> please, yes
[21:13] <genii> OK
[21:13] <ovidiuflorin> I'd like to get started on the first part: Project vision
[21:13] <valorie> can everyone here for the meeting please either say so here or write your name in the google doc?
[21:13] <clivejo> here
[21:13]  * acheronuk raises hand
[21:14] <ovidiuflorin> Q1:   Why are we doing this?
[21:14] <genii> Do you have to be a dev for that?
[21:14] <valorie> no
[21:14] <ovidiuflorin> genii: no
[21:14]  * genii raises hand then
[21:14] <valorie> you have to be interested in the future of Kubuntu
[21:15] <ovidiuflorin> My answes is: Because we want a stable and beautiful desktop and we have fun while making it.
[21:15] <genii> valorie: Yes, that's why I'm here
[21:15] <ovidiuflorin> valorie: please be a grammar natzi with me if necessary
[21:15] <valorie> my vision is Kubuntu is just this -- all of us who want to see Kubuntu healthy and successful, pitching in our bit to make that stable, beautiful desktop for our users
[21:16] <valorie> oh yes, and having fun while doing it
[21:16] <acheronuk> + I feel ubuntu is the best base for doing that
[21:16] <santa_> I have 2 answers, not sure which one to pick
[21:16] <valorie> say both!
[21:16] <ovidiuflorin> santa_: you can get both, or make your own
[21:17] <ovidiuflorin> we're gathering answers here, and we'll compose a official Kubuntu Vision manifesto after
[21:17] <santa_> a) to provide kde users of ubuntu an experience as much pleasant as possible within the bounds and limitations of ubuntu for doing that
[21:17] <ovidiuflorin> that will be available on our website
[21:18] <santa_> b) because of the most powereful element of style: no reason!
[21:18] <valorie> heh
[21:18] <valorie> "cuz I wanna"
 that will be available on our website
[21:18] <ovidiuflorin> yes
[21:18] <ovidiuflorin> Check out https://community.kde.org/KDE_Visual_Design_Group/HIG/Vision for "What is a vision?"
[21:19] <santa_> then I think I will pick "to provide kde users of ubuntu an experience as much pleasant as possible"
[21:19] <ovidiuflorin> Thank you all
[21:19] <ovidiuflorin> Q2: What do we want to achieve?
[21:20] <ovidiuflorin> this is somewhat answered already
[21:20] <ovidiuflorin> but I feel we can add more
[21:20] <santa_> provide updated kde software to our users
[21:20] <acheronuk> I believe in and love KDE as a desktop, and feel a great kubuntu is still the bast way to showcase that, and introduce new people to KDE in a friendly way
[21:21] <ovidiuflorin> so: a welcoming place to introduce people to KDE software
[21:22] <ovidiuflorin> does anybody want to add something?
[21:23] <valorie> how about "fresh KDE software"?
[21:23] <ovidiuflorin> define "fresh"
[21:23] <valorie> because Santa is right, we're not content with providing old software
[21:23] <valorie> we want the latest stable releases
[21:24] <acheronuk> up to date but stable
[21:24] <ovidiuflorin> I agree with that
[21:24] <santa_> as much as feasible, but yes, I think its something valuable we lost
[21:24] <santa_> I mean
[21:24] <valorie> I think we were all disappointed in how the deadlines hampered us this time
[21:24] <valorie> although we knew in advance
[21:24] <santa_> it's not the only thing
[21:25] <santa_> most of the things were there even in the Jon's era
[21:25] <valorie> it won't always be like that, because KDE devels are picking up the pace
[21:25] <valorie> what things?
[21:25] <ovidiuflorin> so we should strive to always have the latest KDE in the latest Kubuntu? Regardless of the means (archive or backports)
[21:25] <santa_> freezes, transitions and such
[21:26] <santa_> but anyway there's a lot of room for improvement
[21:26] <valorie> ovidiuflorin: in the balance between new and "tested and working" I think we always have to go for tested and working
[21:27] <valorie> neon is there for the latest crack
[21:27] <ovidiuflorin> ok, So I take from here the conclusion for Q2: Provide the latest stable and tested KDE software on the latest released Kubuntu?
[21:27] <valorie> part of what keeps me involved here is the millions of kids and teachers who are using our software in Brazil and elsewhere
[21:28] <valorie> they may not even know they are using linux
[21:28] <ovidiuflorin> please rephrase my asnwer to Q2 if you feel necessary
[21:28] <valorie> much less that it's KDE on Ubuntu
[21:29]  * ovidiuflorin feels like he's talking alone (with valorie)
[21:29] <ovidiuflorin> and santa_
[21:29] <acheronuk> sorry. just switching pc
[21:29] <valorie> I'd love to hear from our newest Kubuntu Developer
[21:29] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: ?
[21:30] <valorie> also I wish yofel could chime in
[21:30] <ovidiuflorin> we can't move on untill these are clear
[21:30] <ovidiuflorin> IMHO
[21:31] <clivejo> Im just here to listen
[21:31] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: you shouldn't just listen
[21:32] <ovidiuflorin> we are here to discuss about the project
[21:32] <valorie> I hope you will feel moved to contribute to the conversation
[21:32] <ovidiuflorin> and what we want to do with it
[21:32] <valorie> because imo we are thinking together about what we all want
[21:32] <clivejo> we are a Ubuntu flavor/flavour and we release software based on Ubuntu schedule
[21:32] <ovidiuflorin> I think everybody's input is valuable
[21:33] <valorie> very true that
[21:33] <acheronuk> we have a very wide demographic, and that makes it difficult to have a singular vision
[21:33] <clivejo> KDE have their own cycle and we cant get the lastest into a release and be part of that cycle
[21:33] <valorie> sometimes true
[21:33] <valorie> well, often
[21:34] <clivejo> we have lots of users on very old versions of Kubuntu, why?
[21:34] <clivejo> because its stable
[21:34] <ovidiuflorin> I'm not asking about how we should implement something, I'm asking about what do we want to achieve?
[21:34] <ovidiuflorin> *with Kubuntu
[21:34] <clivejo> well thats something I would like answered myself
[21:35] <genii> As a ( mostly ) nontechnical Kubuntu user who wants to help improve the distribution, the main questions I currently have are: How do i find out who the current dev team is, who to contact about testing and whatnot. Also on theagenda for this meeting is "Who are we (Kubuntu) in the world?" which I'm curious as to what people perceive that is
[21:35] <ovidiuflorin> what's the answer for you clivejo?
[21:35] <clivejo> I moved to Kubuntu because it is stable
[21:35] <clivejo> but my views have changed since then
[21:35] <clivejo> now I like the latest versions
[21:35] <valorie> the latest versions are more stable!
[21:35] <acheronuk> well I want to get back to the point where I feel people who want to try KDE see kubuntu as one of the most natural and obvious places to start
[21:35] <valorie> didn't use to be like that
[21:36] <valorie> acheronuk: +++
[21:36] <acheronuk> I feel kubuntu has lost some ground on that
[21:36] <valorie> to whom?
[21:36] <valorie> and why
[21:36] <ovidiuflorin> ok, so I gather this asnwer so far: We want a stable distribution where people can discover KDE, with latest KDE software as user opt-in ?
[21:37] <ovidiuflorin> people, please, let's not discuss history here
[21:37] <valorie> ok
[21:37] <ovidiuflorin> let's try to just answe a  few simple questions about what's our future
[21:37] <clivejo> I personally would like to be putting out very stable, tried and tested software in the main archive
[21:37] <valorie> acheronuk: so how do you think we can regain that reputation?
[21:37] <ovidiuflorin> and what do we want from our project in the future
[21:38] <clivejo> and then have PPA's for the latest and greatest
[21:38] <claydoh> we fall behind because KDE moved to a more rapid release schedule that favors the rolling release model more than the traditional distros, or Ubuntu's
[21:38] <valorie> clivejo: do you not think we are doing that now?
[21:38] <clivejo> no e arent
[21:38] <valorie> ?
[21:38] <clivejo> ne we
[21:38] <clivejo> no we
[21:39] <valorie> claydoh: point taken
[21:39] <clivejo> our KCI is broken,
[21:39] <clivejo> thats how we used to get the latest and greatest out there
[21:39] <ovidiuflorin> we're getting technical
[21:40] <clivejo> ok simply we have no latest software in the pipeline
[21:40] <ovidiuflorin> Let's try it this way: in a short sentence, what do we want to achieve by having Kubuntu in the world?
[21:40] <valorie> there is always going to be a tension between the latest and tested, stable
[21:40] <clivejo> and we are struggle to get the older software into main releases
[21:40] <ovidiuflorin> My answer is this: We want a stable distribution where people can discover KDE, with latest KDE software as user opt-in ?
[21:40] <ovidiuflorin> any others?
[21:40] <acheronuk> taking the example of a school teacher somewhere, they have to be able to install the iso and be sure it's going to be a balance of up to date but tried and tested
[21:41] <valorie> and a tension between what is in the archive, and what we can get out in other ways
[21:42] <valorie> and of course the tension between what developers want, and users
[21:42] <ovidiuflorin> I feel my answer is descriptive enough to cover what clivejo said
[21:43] <ovidiuflorin> does anybody have something to add to that answer?
[21:43] <ovidiuflorin> valorie: we'll cover that in the "Team communication" part
[21:43] <santa_> I think it's good and covers what most people said
[21:43] <valorie> what I had written was We strive to provide the latest stable and tested KDE software in the archive and backports.
[21:43] <valorie> but that might be too specific
[21:43] <acheronuk> ovidiuflorin: not without writing an essay, which is what we are trying to avoid here
[21:44] <ovidiuflorin> valorie: it's a bit too specific technically
[21:44] <valorie> I like the discovery part
[21:44] <ovidiuflorin> ok
[21:44] <ovidiuflorin> I'd like to move on to Q3: Who are we (Kubuntu) in the world?
[21:45] <ovidiuflorin> To clarify: Neon offers latest KDE software in a CI variant, mostly not tested.
[21:46] <ovidiuflorin> OpenSUSE pathes KDE software for their agenda
[21:46] <clivejo> ovidiuflorin: thats not technically correct
[21:46] <clivejo> The User edition is pretty well tested
[21:46] <ovidiuflorin> rolling distros offer the latest compiled, but probably not configured properly in harmony with the system.
[21:46] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: how is it tested?
[21:47] <ovidiuflorin> automated tests, or user tested?
[21:47] <clivejo> user tested
[21:47] <ovidiuflorin> ok, then
[21:47] <ovidiuflorin> My question is: what set's us (Kubuntu) appart from the other distros?
[21:48] <clivejo> all the feedback from all distro's gets back to KDE Neon, in a far tighter feedback loop
[21:48] <valorie> that we are a part of both Ubuntu and KDE
[21:48] <ovidiuflorin> what is your opinion, everybody?
[21:48] <valorie> and that we were designed to be friendly to both developers  and users
[21:48] <claydoh> what has set us apart have been the kubuntu specific tools, such as Muon, the simplified  use manager, as well as ports of the Ubuntu tools like the driver manager et al
[21:49] <acheronuk> being part of ubuntu is the biggest thing. our users gain a huge amount from that
[21:49] <valorie> claydoh: that's true too
[21:49] <ovidiuflorin> Muon is a KDE project now, isn't it?
[21:49] <valorie> we could showcase those again if we found maintainers again for those thing
[21:49] <valorie> s
[21:50] <claydoh> ovidiuflorin: yres but not orifinally
[21:50] <valorie> ovidiuflorin: we made it originally
[21:50] <ovidiuflorin> ok, but we're talking about NOW, not THEN (in the past)
[21:50] <ahoneybunn> alright so on kiwi irc now
[21:50] <genii> ovidiuflorin: When trying to demonstrate linux to windows/mac users, I find Kubuntu is the easiest transition for them to make. And the support is above most other distributions bcause for many issues regular Ubuntu support methods often solve their issues.
[21:50] <ovidiuflorin> acheronuk: would you elaborate on that please?
[21:50] <valorie> right, and we can't showcase them now
[21:51] <genii> ..also, it has a familiar interface, unlike for intance Unity
[21:51] <ovidiuflorin> I like genii's answer
[21:51] <ahoneybunn> o/
[21:51] <valorie> hi ahoneybunn
[21:51] <ovidiuflorin> hey ahoneybunn
[21:51] <ovidiuflorin> we're trying to answer Who are we (Kubuntu) in the world?
[21:52] <acheronuk> much the same. the ubuntu base and depth of support makes gives our users a better experiance
[21:52] <ahoneybunn> shipping KDE on a Ubuntu cycle
[21:52] <claydoh> so what we need to be (inmsho) is Neon but with the Kubuntu tools that made things so much easier for people, we were never specifically about being a newbie distro
[21:52] <clivejo> going forward, can we still provide Muon and Driver Manager?
[21:53] <ahoneybunn> well as Driver Manger is kinda broken, no
[21:53] <santa_> muon is gone and discover is suposed to replace it
[21:53] <ovidiuflorin> we're getting technical
[21:53] <claydoh> santa_: not quite as they are different
[21:53] <clivejo> ovidiuflorin: I think we have to be a bit
[21:53] <ovidiuflorin> Neon also has a Ubuntu base
[21:54] <ahoneybunn> but not the cycle
[21:54] <ovidiuflorin> and the Ubuntu support should also apply to them
[21:54] <ahoneybunn> they move when they want to
[21:54] <claydoh> but yeah we are, but in some cases these small technical thinga *are* the keys to making us different and better
[21:54] <santa_> claydoh: I know, but it's what we have
[21:54] <santa_> we could get missing things in discover
[21:54] <clivejo> in the past these made Kubuntu good, providing them broken is what makes people give up and think well thats useless
[21:54] <ovidiuflorin> I still can't phrase a clear answer to that question
[21:54] <santa_> sorry about getting technical
[21:55] <clivejo> the follow a guide on the internet about how easy to use the Driver Manager is
[21:55] <valorie> it used to be dead easy
[21:55] <valorie> then it broke
[21:55] <clivejo> but then click on it and it sits there endlessly spinning
[21:55] <santa_> back to the actual question "a community fo free software enthusiasts interested in kde and ubuntu"
[21:56] <santa_> I would add what we want to achieve but it would be a bit redundant
[21:57] <ovidiuflorin> ok, so how are we different from Neon and Netrunner and Chakra, and etc?
[21:57] <ahoneybunn> Chakra avoids GTK
[21:57] <ahoneybunn> ships it seperate
[21:57] <ahoneybunn> we follow the Ubuntu cycle and keep with it's community
[21:57] <ahoneybunn> our community
[21:58] <genii> If anyone pays attention in the support channel, most of the problems people have are usually related to things which have been broken for some time, like kmail. Many of the other questions are not so much about something which is not working correctly , but for instance how to get the latest Plasma or latest other thing
[21:59] <ahoneybunn> its been a hit and miss with kmail, I know it's just an example
[21:59] <ahoneybunn> Driver Manager has been kinda broke for 2 releases I htink
[21:59] <ahoneybunn> *think
[21:59] <ovidiuflorin> So the thing I hear the most is: Kubuntu is a popular distro for historical reasons, and is used because of it's name
[22:00] <claydoh> broken since plasma 5 so 3 iirc
[22:00] <genii> For the most part, it is surprisingly quiet in there otherwise, which shows A) they have no issue or B) They found the answer already in mainstream support like #ubuntu or he forums
[22:00] <clivejo> IMHO these are the "paper cuts" that are undermining us
[22:00] <ovidiuflorin> if a user asks you why to use Kubuntu instead of X or Y, what would you answer?
[22:00] <ahoneybunn> or moved to Neon or something else
[22:01] <clivejo> losing that "it just works"
[22:01] <acheronuk> I find it unlikely driver manager is 'unfixable'
[22:01]  * ovidiuflorin feels like he's talking to himself
[22:02] <ahoneybunn> ovidiuflorin: our community
[22:02] <ahoneybunn> sorry
[22:02] <acheronuk> whoops
[22:02]  * genii goes back to lurking
[22:02] <valorie> for me the software "just works"
[22:02] <ahoneybunn> thanks genii
[22:03] <valorie> but I haven't used kmail for .... can't remember how long
[22:03] <valorie> used to be my favorite application after Konversation
[22:03] <ahoneybunn> I've tried to but...
[22:03] <ahoneybunn> anyway
[22:03] <valorie> anyway
[22:03] <valorie> that's beyond Kubuntu's remit
[22:04] <ahoneybunn> does that define who we are yet ovidiuflorin ?
[22:04] <clivejo> valorie: technically its not
[22:04] <ovidiuflorin> So the answer to Q3 is: Kubuntu is a friendly experienced community with deep roots in Ubuntu and KDE.
[22:04] <ovidiuflorin> does anybody have anything to add to that?
[22:04] <clivejo> it can be got working and working well
[22:05]  * claydoh heads off to work
[22:05] <valorie> o/ claydoh
[22:05] <claydoh> sorry not helpful much or available
[22:05] <valorie> clivejo: sometimes when we both have time, perhaps you can help me with that
[22:05] <valorie> I'll try again
[22:06] <ahoneybunn> nope ovidiuflorin
[22:06] <valorie> and bug you if I have problems
[22:06]  * ovidiuflorin writes his asnwer in the notes, since he feels no one cares to comment
[22:06] <clivejo> the problem is packaging and getting it working on the Ubuntu stack
[22:06] <valorie> thanks ovidiuflorin
[22:06] <acheronuk> I admit I struggle with these slightly vague type questions
[22:06] <ovidiuflorin> ok
[22:06] <valorie> I had to go get more coffee
[22:06] <ovidiuflorin> it's been an hour
[22:07] <ovidiuflorin> we could continue with the meeting, if we would stay on topic, or we could call it here
[22:07] <clivejo> sorry ovidiuflorin, continue
[22:07]  * ovidiuflorin remembers why he hates text only meetings
[22:07] <clivejo> Ill shut up
[22:08] <ahoneybunn> keep going ovidiuflorin
[22:08] <ovidiuflorin> Next on the agenda is: "Team communication"
[22:08] <ahoneybunn> sorry about losing focus
[22:08] <ovidiuflorin> we currently have a few issues here, and we would all like to solve them
[22:09] <ovidiuflorin> first: our communications channels
[22:09] <ovidiuflorin> which are they and should we watch them?
[22:09] <ovidiuflorin> for users he have:
[22:10] <ovidiuflorin> IRC, Telegram, Social media, Forums, and Email
[22:10] <ovidiuflorin> for devel we have:
[22:10] <ovidiuflorin> IRC, Telegram and email
[22:10] <valorie> and bug reports
[22:10] <ovidiuflorin> telegram and IRC are the same channels with 2 different clients
[22:10] <ovidiuflorin> so we treat them as one
[22:11] <ovidiuflorin> mainly I want to discuss the devel channels now
[22:11] <valorie> please don't forget BRs even for our users
[22:11] <ovidiuflorin> of course
[22:11] <clivejo> BR's?
[22:11] <genii> BRs ?
[22:11] <acheronuk> BRs?
[22:11] <clivejo> oh bug reports
[22:11] <valorie> bug reports
[22:11] <genii> Ah
[22:11] <acheronuk> lol
[22:11] <ahoneybunn> XD
[22:11] <acheronuk> of course
[22:11] <ovidiuflorin> We have these channels in order to keep track of what needs to be done, and who does it
[22:12] <ovidiuflorin> and we should post in them what we plan to do and get feedback on our plans
[22:12] <acheronuk> add trello the for that ^^
[22:12] <valorie> oh, and Trello
[22:12] <ovidiuflorin> I guess everybory is in agreement with this
[22:12] <ovidiuflorin> RIGHT?
[22:12] <ahoneybunn> yep
[22:12] <ovidiuflorin> yes, and trello
[22:12] <ahoneybunn> +1
[22:13] <santa_> I started to be more keen on using trello
[22:13] <acheronuk> It's growing on me slowly
[22:13] <genii> BBB is also good, when it works correctly
[22:13] <ovidiuflorin> we use trello to keep track of tasks that are long standing or that need some aditional expertiese to solve
[22:14] <ovidiuflorin> Also Youtube (the podcast) for our users
[22:14] <acheronuk> yes, and I still mostly forget to check it :/
[22:15] <ovidiuflorin> There are tasks not written in trello because they are constant tasks
[22:15] <ahoneybunn> I've added trello to Slack if anyone was going to use it
[22:15] <ovidiuflorin> like: debian merging, packaging x or y
[22:15] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: can offer mode details here
[22:15] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: can you, please?
[22:15] <valorie> we used to use trello for those routine tasks as well
[22:15] <clivejo> Im in listening mode
[22:16] <valorie> just in checklists
[22:16] <valorie> so that it was obvious what still needs attention
[22:16] <ovidiuflorin> I don't know what are the "Always on" tasks
[22:16] <clivejo> but we can all make trello cards about stuff
[22:16] <clivejo> the problem is the doing
[22:17] <ovidiuflorin> but I agree that it would be useful to have a list of cards that are always on
[22:17] <acheronuk> well, KCI is a always active rolling task
[22:17] <ovidiuflorin> ok
[22:17] <acheronuk> may have some specific jobs to do when things have bigger changes
[22:17] <ovidiuflorin> next is the CoC (code of conduct)
[22:17] <ahoneybunn> yep
[22:17] <ovidiuflorin> I believe everybody here is a Kubuntu member and/or has read the Coc
[22:17] <ovidiuflorin> right?
[22:18] <ahoneybunn> to a degree
[22:18] <clivejo> There are important decisions to be made, and noone to make them
[22:18] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: I agree
[22:18] <santa_> such as?
[22:18] <ovidiuflorin> but the problem I have with that is:
[22:19] <ahoneybunn> I believe we need to have the KC as a more decision making body then before
[22:19] <ovidiuflorin> I have 2 hours to work on Kubuntu, what do I do?
[22:19] <ovidiuflorin> how do I do it?
[22:19] <valorie> in my opinion we are still recovering from the rupture in our community, and I do see progress and improvement
[22:19] <ovidiuflorin> where to ask for help?
[22:19] <ahoneybunn> clive, rik,
[22:19] <ovidiuflorin> that's why I'm proposing as P1 priority to document the workflow
[22:20] <clivejo> The point yofel put on the Annual meeting https://community.kde.org/Kubuntu/AnnualMeeting - "Team org (we need a new release manager) -- we need more discussion about this! (valorie)"
[22:20] <valorie> I agree, we need to decide this well before our next major release
[22:20] <ovidiuflorin> how we do things, what tools do we use, how to set-up a work machine
[22:21] <valorie> it is clear that Yofel can no longer be release manager
[22:21] <ovidiuflorin> If we don't have this documented, we'll argue about this for ever
[22:21] <ovidiuflorin> let's please stay on topic
[22:21] <genii> Who normally wrote such documentation in the past?
[22:21] <valorie> genii: there wasn't any
[22:21] <ahoneybunn> I don't think there was
[22:22] <ovidiuflorin> it was all in the dev's heads
[22:22] <valorie> or rather, there was multiple, in many places
[22:22] <genii> Hm, OK
[22:22] <ahoneybunn> kinda just a set rule between devs
[22:22] <acheronuk> all in JR and Haruld's head from what I could see
[22:22] <ovidiuflorin> and Rohan
[22:22] <ahoneybunn> as such we don't know how to do it without them
[22:22] <valorie> and Scarlett
[22:22] <valorie> well, we did make a successful release
[22:22] <ovidiuflorin> ok, currently we have a few started attempts to document this
[22:22] <valorie> we just want to make the next one better
[22:23] <santa_> what workflow are we talking about?
[22:23] <ovidiuflorin> but, that's just covering one action
[22:23] <valorie> and have more fun while doing that
[22:23] <clivejo> I learned under those tools/rules but everything has changed now
[22:23] <clivejo> to the point I dont know whats going on
[22:24] <ovidiuflorin> exactly why we need to document all this
[22:24] <santa_> are we talking about the packaging workflow?
[22:24] <clivejo> ovidiuflorin and I worked on guides, which are totally void now
[22:24] <ovidiuflorin> what are the actions a Kubuntu contributor can do?
[22:24] <ahoneybunn> that's part of it santa_
[22:25] <ovidiuflorin> let's answer this first
[22:25] <ovidiuflorin> please
[22:25] <acheronuk> where do we do/keep it?
[22:25] <ovidiuflorin> first I'd say to split the documentation in doable actions
[22:26] <ahoneybunn> agreed
[22:26] <acheronuk> (a) documentation maintenance itself
[22:26] <ovidiuflorin> like: Test ISO, Test package, Package (from scratch), Package Update software version
[22:27] <clivejo> how can you document something you dont know how it works?
[22:27] <ovidiuflorin> do you have better wording for this?
[22:27] <santa_> the packaging workflow it's documented in the README (old one) and README.ng (new one) from kubuntu automation
[22:27] <santa_> I don't know about everything else
[22:28] <ahoneybunn> well packaging is a lot more then just that
[22:28] <valorie> well, it would be lovely to have some sort of guide to get someone brand-new get set up and start helping
[22:28] <ovidiuflorin> I'm trying to compile a list with what a contributor can contribute with
[22:28] <ahoneybunn> ie. debian merging, packaging x and y
[22:28] <ovidiuflorin> please help me with this
[22:28] <ovidiuflorin> debian merging seems to me like a subcategory of PAckaging
[22:28] <santa_> ie. debian merging, that's documentd in the README.ng file
[22:29] <acheronuk> that's going to be a long list if you want to break it down that much
[22:29] <clivejo> ovidiuflorin: Packaging, Documentation, helping with general tasks
[22:29] <ahoneybunn> I think we should have a starting page for new contributors
[22:29] <ovidiuflorin> we have one
[22:29] <santa_> probably
[22:29] <santa_> where is it?
[22:29] <ovidiuflorin> http://kubuntu.org/contribute-to-kubuntu/
[22:29] <acheronuk> I think we need a starting page for everyone
[22:29] <clivejo> people to answer questions in IRC/Forums
[22:30] <ahoneybunn> right
[22:30] <ovidiuflorin> it needs to be updated
[22:30] <clivejo> have main contacts for people interested in certain topics
[22:30] <ahoneybunn> let's put it this way
[22:30] <valorie> so it's better to put a link to a readme
[22:30] <genii> From just lurking here daily I see struggling with the existing tools devs have inherited. Maybe someone needs to reach out to those who built/used these to get a better understanding and build at least some rudimentary documentation of what's already there.
[22:30] <valorie> than have stuff in two places
[22:30] <ahoneybunn> when a new FW. Plasma, Apps release comes out
[22:30] <ahoneybunn> what do we do first?
[22:31] <clivejo> I think it might be wise to appoint a media rep
[22:31] <valorie> good question, ahoneybunn
[22:31] <valorie> I haven't a clue, therefore I can't easily help someone who wants to learn, get started
[22:32] <clivejo> it depends on who you are
[22:32] <santa_> hmm that's explained in the README.ng from KA
[22:32] <santa_> but maybe we could document that it's uploaded to staging
[22:32] <santa_> and how we move the things between ppa's
[22:32] <clivejo> people with access to depot get access to a release before it is officially released
[22:32] <ahoneybunn> santa_: we need docs not readmes
[22:32] <ahoneybunn> not everyone goes to those first
[22:32] <ahoneybunn> they go to wikis
[22:33] <santa_> let's put a link in the wiki then
[22:33] <clivejo> doesnt help that the wikis are broken and have to fight with it to get access
[22:33] <ahoneybunn> I mean KDE ones
[22:33] <ahoneybunn> not Ubuntu ones
[22:34] <acheronuk> ubuntu seems ok here if you can actually log in
[22:34] <valorie> clivejo: do you not have access to the KDE wikis?
[22:34] <clivejo> you are adding another layer to contributing
[22:34] <ahoneybunn> when a cycle first starts , what do we do first?
[22:35] <clivejo> valorie: I do when the wiki gods decide to play nice
[22:35] <genii> ahoneybunn: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development is way way old :(
[22:35] <clivejo> but to a new comer being told you need a ubuntu log in and a KDE login and x,y,z
[22:35] <valorie> and it should just link to our present wiki, which is not in the Ubuntu wiki system
[22:35] <acheronuk> ahoneybunn: how to set up new branches, tooling changes etc?
[22:35] <ahoneybunn> no idea acheronuk
[22:36] <ahoneybunn> ovidiuflorin: still with is?
[22:36] <ovidiuflorin> Ok, so it's clear to everybody that the wikis are scattered and old, and links should be updated
[22:36] <ahoneybunn> *us?
[22:36] <ovidiuflorin> let's stop repeating that
[22:36] <ovidiuflorin> please
[22:36] <ovidiuflorin> we need to update everything
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> so, first question: when a cycle first starts , what do we do first?
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> let's put it like this
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> new cycle starts
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> I'm a new contributor
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> what do I do?
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> or I'm an old controbutir
[22:37] <ovidiuflorin> what do I do?
[22:38] <clivejo> what kind of contributor?
[22:38] <acheronuk> let the devs from the last cycle lie down in a darkened room for a week it seems :P
[22:38] <acheronuk> to recover
[22:39] <valorie> right, let's lay plans to make it so only a day's recovery is necessary
[22:39] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: what would you do first thing?
[22:39] <valorie> :-)
[22:39] <clivejo> when a new release goes out, we should be looking at bug reports
[22:39] <ovidiuflorin> ok
[22:39] <ovidiuflorin> noted
[22:39] <ovidiuflorin> do something about them?
[22:40] <clivejo> this is the first time this software is on the general public's systems
[22:40] <ovidiuflorin> bug reports in LP or KDE bugzilla?
[22:40] <ahoneybunn> see which ones are still effecting
[22:40] <clivejo> and there will be issues
[22:40] <ahoneybunn> LP for ubuntu, KDE for well KDE
[22:40] <valorie> ovidiuflorin: LP
[22:40] <ahoneybunn> Bugzilla
[22:40] <genii> .. make sure you have the correct current set of tools to do whatever type of contributing you're planning on, maybe?
[22:41] <ovidiuflorin> let's stay on track
[22:41] <valorie> if the KDE bugs are actually Kubuntu bugs, the KDE devels should file LP bugs
[22:41] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: what would you do about the bug reports?
[22:41] <ovidiuflorin> so bug triage?
[22:41] <clivejo> Id like to see them fixed
[22:42] <ovidiuflorin> so First thing is triage bugs, right?
[22:43] <clivejo> these are tasks I was given to do as a newbie
[22:43] <ovidiuflorin> second would be: fix what's possible from remaining bugs?
[22:43] <clivejo> go and find out why thats not working
[22:43] <clivejo> look if upstream are aware of the issue and have issued a patch
[22:44] <ovidiuflorin> that's part of triage, but I'm writing it down
[22:44] <clivejo> patch the package and ask for review
[22:44] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: go on, please
[22:45] <clivejo> but this is a team thing
[22:45] <ovidiuflorin> I agree
[22:45] <ovidiuflorin> I'm trying to write down the workflow we should follow
[22:45]  * ahoneybunn hugs ovidiuflorin
[22:45]  * ovidiuflorin doesn't want higs right now
[22:45] <clivejo> we need testers to test the fixes
[22:45]  * ovidiuflorin want's progress
[22:46] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: noted
[22:46] <clivejo> and someone who trusts the testers feedback to upload the fix
[22:46]  * ovidiuflorin reminds people: notes are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10M-hYkzHBLnPihbgk6J-u9QcYVW2y8U-jhnjo3rhq_Y/edit
[22:46] <ovidiuflorin> how should we call that someone?
[22:47] <ovidiuflorin> does that role have a name?
[22:47] <genii> tester liason ;)
[22:47] <clivejo> which role?
[22:47] <ovidiuflorin> who trusts the testers feedback to upload the fix
[22:48] <ahoneybunn> well clivejo or yofel
[22:48] <ahoneybunn> as they can upload
[22:48] <ovidiuflorin> that's not what I asked
[22:49] <ahoneybunn> oh
[22:49] <ovidiuflorin> ok, so I believe we can close the STEP 1 Triage and fix bugs
[22:49] <ovidiuflorin> clivejo: what's next
[22:49] <ovidiuflorin> ?
[22:49] <clivejo> you cant give roles in this type of environment
[22:49] <clivejo> people will do what they want to do
[22:50] <ovidiuflorin> you missunderstood my question
[22:50] <clivejo> I need people to test akonadi
[22:50] <clivejo> but the regular testers dont want or use PIM
[22:50] <ovidiuflorin> I asked: what would you name the role of the person who reviews tester feedback and confirms and uploads the fix?
[22:51] <valorie> if you still need that testing, clivejo -- please write to the list
[22:51] <valorie> you'll get more readership
[22:51] <clivejo> we need more people on bug reports
[22:51] <ovidiuflorin> ok we get that
[22:51] <valorie> Flames-in-paradise is doing an amazing job lately
[22:52] <clivejo> there is one guy who is doing a good job
[22:52] <valorie> so kudos there
[22:52] <clivejo> yes thats him
[22:52] <ovidiuflorin> I'm not trying to fix that issue right now
[22:52] <ovidiuflorin> I'm trying to write down what needs to be done in a cycle
[22:52] <ovidiuflorin> as an overview
[22:52] <ovidiuflorin> what else, besides bug reports, and bug fixes
[22:52] <ovidiuflorin> ?
[22:53] <ahoneybunn> yes
[22:53] <clivejo> well just generalise it as working on the newly released release
[22:53] <santa_> start to update the packaging
[22:53] <ovidiuflorin> I don't want to dive into the details of how to fix a bug now, we'll do that later
[22:54] <clivejo> once the major bugs have been ironed out, it should be backported to older releases
[22:54] <ahoneybunn> debian merging
[22:54] <clivejo> no
[22:54] <clivejo> thats +1
[22:55] <ahoneybunn> oh right
[22:55] <ovidiuflorin> so, next after bugs is debian merging?
[22:55] <valorie> I'm confused already -- do you mean that those patched versions should be backported immediately?
[22:56] <santa_> if they fix important bugs, I think it sould be done as soon as someone has time to do it
[22:56] <clivejo> well they would go into landing and the testers would check over for backporting issues
[22:56]  * ovidiuflorin has to leave in 5 minutes
[22:56] <valorie> ah
[22:57] <valorie> ovidiuflorin: thank you for keeping us on task
[22:58] <valorie> so, "start to update the packaging" -- what does that mean?
[22:58] <clivejo> santa_: but you cant backport a new version?
[22:59] <clivejo> sorry Im getting tired here
[22:59] <ovidiuflorin> I have to go people. I recommend that you finish the overview of the workflow process and document it. We can do in depth of each part later
[23:00] <ovidiuflorin> or we can contiue this another time
[23:00] <ovidiuflorin> please vote. Should we end the meeting here?
[23:00] <valorie> I feel like we are making progress
[23:00] <ovidiuflorin> I agree
[23:00] <valorie> I hope we can keep going a bit
[23:01] <ovidiuflorin> who want's to take over the chair?
[23:01] <valorie> anybody else want to continue?
[23:01] <ahoneybunn> as it is getting a bit late for the Euro folks we could continue another time
[23:01] <santa_> clivejo: if it's a bugfix version you can put that in -updates if it's a feature version it could go to -backports
[23:01] <santa_> I can continue a bit
[23:01] <ovidiuflorin> santa_: that's too technical for now
[23:02] <santa_> ok, sorry
[23:02] <valorie> I'm reading http://askubuntu.com/questions/401941/what-is-the-difference-between-security-updates-proposed-and-backports-in-etc
[23:02] <santa_> I can continue a bit with th meeting if you want
[23:02] <valorie> I can chair for about an hour
[23:02] <valorie> thank you ovidiuflorin
[23:02] <genii> You can also defer the rest of the meeting if a day and time can be agreed on
[23:02] <genii> ..or "to be decided"
[23:02] <ovidiuflorin> ok. I propose to end the meeting now. and send another doodle for part 2
[23:02] <ovidiuflorin> all in favor say eye
[23:03] <ovidiuflorin> eye
[23:03] <ahoneybunn> eye
[23:03]  * ovidiuflorin thinks people have fallen asleep
[23:03] <valorie> eye, but let's continue informally please?
[23:04] <clivejo> I have no opinion on it
[23:04] <clivejo> Im here now, all be it tired
[23:04] <acheronuk> I had to pop off and do stuff, but am back for a while now maybe
[23:04] <ahoneybunn> the team communication should be touched on though
[23:04] <ovidiuflorin> ok then
[23:04] <ovidiuflorin> [23:04]  * genii runs off to watch hockey
[23:04] <ovidiuflorin> [23:04] <valorie> thank you
[23:04]  * ovidiuflorin is out
[23:04] <ovidiuflorin> see you guys soon
[23:05] <clivejo> good night ovidiuflorin
[23:05] <acheronuk> thanks ovidiuflorin
[23:05] <ovidiuflorin> I'll check the notes in the morning
[23:05] <clivejo> thanks for chairing
[23:05] <ahoneybunn> night ovidiuflorin
[23:05] <ovidiuflorin> or when ever I wake up this week,,,,
[23:05] <ovidiuflorin> nini
[23:06] <ahoneybunn> valorie: I think the KC should be more forward in the decision making in a cycle
[23:06] <ahoneybunn> ie. what to work on first
[23:06] <clivejo> +1 ahoneybunn
[23:07] <valorie> well, some of us are qualified to weigh in on those questions
[23:07] <valorie> I can only offer my opinions
[23:07] <ahoneybunn> weighing in is different then making a decision
[23:07] <clivejo> decisions need to be made
[23:08] <acheronuk> In the absence of other expertise, perhaps
[23:08] <valorie> I read the list and everything here, and I'm unclear on what decisions need to be made
[23:08] <ahoneybunn> I know we have never had an official "leader" but these are much different times
[23:08] <valorie> JR was the leader
[23:09] <ahoneybunn> unofficially
[23:09] <ahoneybunn> but pretty much
[23:09] <ahoneybunn> as such yofel and clivejo need to have our backing on making those decisions
[23:09] <valorie> clivejo: can you say what decisions need to be made?
[23:09] <clivejo> One thing santa_ and I disagree on, is Debian our upstream?
[23:10] <ahoneybunn> it is
[23:10] <valorie> I read that discussion, and I don't entirely understand what each of you mean by upstream
[23:10] <valorie> historically, of course they are
[23:10] <clivejo> packaging wise?
[23:11] <valorie> right now, they seem to be ahead of us, but usually we've been ahead of them
[23:11] <santa_> well that's a "philisophical" discussion
[23:11] <ahoneybunn> we merge from them for new releases and tweak what we need
[23:11] <clivejo> they name a package x, we name the package x
[23:11] <valorie> packaging-wise
[23:11] <clivejo> we inherit epochs
[23:11] <santa_> clivejo: regarding how to handle the merges I think we need to discuss that again
[23:12] <santa_> I think we have some misunderstandings there
[23:12] <clivejo> Im sick of discussing
[23:12] <valorie> clivejo: for the most part, we have
[23:12] <santa_> and I aslo think we can reach an agreement
[23:12] <clivejo> I donate my time, just like you do too
[23:12] <ahoneybunn> the main issue is not the debian merge though I think, it's that clivejo is on the KC so he has a bit more of a say of what we do
[23:13] <ahoneybunn> santa_ I would like to get his exp with issues what come up with the plan
[23:13] <clivejo> but when that time makes me angry and frustrated, its time to call it a day
[23:13] <santa_> ahoneybunn: first we need to agree what's the plan
[23:14] <santa_> because merging *all* the frameworks before uploading it's not something sane
[23:14] <ahoneybunn> santa_: we have before but things are disagreements come as does stress
[23:14] <clivejo> There are 72-73 of them
[23:14] <santa_> well
[23:15] <clivejo> last week I had time to start them
[23:15] <santa_> and I asked you to wait because it would end in a complete mess, thank you for following my advice
[23:15] <santa_> let me explain the situation please
[23:16] <santa_> 1. we have now a tooling to reduce the file conflicts
[23:17] <clivejo> 1) Im not convinced of that, the last time we used the tooling it made a total mess of the control file merge
[23:17] <santa_> fine
[23:17] <santa_> feel free to compare the result with a regular merge
[23:18] <valorie> please can we keep this cool
[23:18] <clivejo> the tooling needs to be run by one person
[23:18] <valorie> anger and frustration doesn't help
[23:18] <santa_> I'm not angry, sorry if I gave that impression
[23:19] <clivejo> as far as I can see, it cant be split up/divided between team members
[23:19] <santa_> ?
[23:19] <santa_> we can split the work
[23:20] <clivejo> by the time you type the new tooling commands, you could have done a lot more manually
[23:21] <santa_> write them in a sh script them
[23:21] <santa_> * then
[23:21] <santa_> anyway
[23:22] <santa_> you want to do it manually becausee it takes less time? be my guest
[23:22] <clivejo> I dont have the time now
[23:23] <santa_> you don't seem to understand what the tooling does, no offense intended
[23:23] <santa_> clivejo: I do
[23:23] <santa_> so let me explain the situation again
[23:23] <santa_> 1. we have now a tooling to reduce the file conflicts
[23:24] <santa_> 2. even with that we will get conflicts for each and every framework of the 72 frameworks
[23:24] <clivejo> but you say doing a debian merge is insane
[23:24] <santa_> let me finish please
[23:24] <santa_> 3. some packages were renamed in debian
[23:25] <santa_> 4. because of 2. I think doing a _complete_ merge from debian before uploading a new frameworks version would delay it a very long time
[23:26] <santa_> so I can write a very simple script to report those packages who were renamed and do a merge of such packages
[23:27] <santa_> and only that packages, in order to not hinder the upload of 5.27 if you clivejo, want/can do it
[23:27] <ScottK> If someone will give me the diffs of what then needs changed in Debian so you can just sync, I'd be glad to work on that.
[23:27] <clivejo> look, several months ago yofel wanted to put frameworks on auto sync with debian, meaning that we would have nothing to do with them
[23:27] <clivejo> I told him not to do that because I wanted the experience to merging and seeing how debian fixed stuff
[23:28] <clivejo> Rik and I were prepared to "waste" our time last week in doing them
[23:28] <clivejo> and you told me to stop, that I was going to introduce dangerous debian breaks
[23:29] <santa_> yes
[23:29] <santa_> and Philip agreed that those breaks shouldn't be there
[23:29] <clivejo> I backed off and tell you write the script, we tested it and it messed up the Control files
[23:29] <clivejo> tell = let
[23:29] <santa_> which wasn't a problem in the script
[23:30] <santa_> that happens with a regular merge
[23:30] <clivejo> my position at the moment is that I do not want to upload FW5.27 in the condition they are in
[23:31] <santa_> so what do you need get get fixed before uploading it?
[23:31] <clivejo> FW are the foundation in our stack and need to be right
[23:31] <clivejo> all the renamed packages need to be fixed
[23:31] <clivejo> so that a build depend on libkf5kio-dev works
[23:32] <clivejo> both Debian and Neon are using it
[23:32] <santa_> great, can we fix that merging the affected packages and get it uploaded?
[23:32] <santa_> I have time to do that
[23:32] <santa_> a merge of a few frameworks is feasible
[23:32] <santa_> a merge of all of them is not
[23:33] <clivejo> ScottK: what is your opinion on this?
[23:33] <ScottK> I think you're at the beginning of a release cycle, so now's the time to get it right.
[23:34] <ScottK> Frankly I don't think there's anything in Kf5 that Kubuntu needs to deviate for in the long run.
[23:35] <clivejo> keeping FW as they are means a lot more work ahead
[23:36] <clivejo> for example, I grabbed the packaging for peruse in an attempt to build it
[23:36] <clivejo> I did it locally on my machine which is zesty + staging PPA (FW5.27)
[23:37] <clivejo> it failed due to a number of packages I didnt have on my system
[23:37] <clivejo> so I had to change the control file and rename the packages to our old versions
[23:37] <clivejo> Thats just one package of hundreds Id like to see updated in zesty
[23:38] <clivejo> taking a few days now to merge with debian would solve all that work later
[23:38] <santa_> fine, lets merge the few affected packages
[23:39] <clivejo> and Im tired and fed up with this going round and round in circles
[23:39] <clivejo> good night folks
[23:39] <santa_> ?
[23:40] <santa_> what circles? I think we can go ahead with merging a few ones and not all of them
[23:40] <santa_> that sounds like a sane idea
[23:40] <santa_> in that regard I see progress rather than circles
[23:41] <valorie> the question I have is this: if we merge those few, and use the tooling for the rest, will this solve the problem?
[23:41] <santa_> no
[23:41] <valorie> we've been spinning our wheels so far
[23:41] <santa_> we have to merge those few ones + defer the rest
[23:41] <valorie> defer?
[23:42] <valorie> can you '
[23:42] <santa_> * do the rest after the upload
[23:42] <valorie> after the upload of what?
[23:42] <santa_> of 5.26/5.27 if clive wants to do it
[23:43] <valorie> ok, now I feel very ignorant
[23:43] <valorie> I think it's because it's late and almost dinner time
[23:48] <acheronuk> why defer?
[23:50] <santa_> because fixing the conflicts of the 72 would take so much time
[23:51] <santa_> but we can do some of course
[23:51] <acheronuk> we have until April :P
[23:51] <acheronuk> I would like to get moving as much as you, but I'm prepared to invest a bit of time
[23:51] <santa_> sure, but doing that shouldn't hinder the upload of new versions
[23:53] <acheronuk> uploading new versions that we probably shouldn't have done done as they really needed a merge first, does not sound like a good plan
[23:53] <valorie> the notes are still open, but I need to go get dinner
[23:57] <santa_> acheronuk: that's not true
[23:58] <acheronuk> maybe the best idea rather than talking in circles or whatever you like to call it, it some off us doing half a dozens test ones to see how they go
[23:58] <santa_> you can start merging right now
[23:59] <santa_> yet, I'm telling you it's going to take time
[23:59] <acheronuk> If it does it does


[02:27] <vadi21> Would bzr-gtk be updated in the bzr ppa sometime? It's not working with the current version in it for a pair of days
[05:30] <cloudbook> hello, I have a simple question about using bzr on Mac OS X.  Anyone can help?
[06:17] <BasicOSX> I pretend to use osx, what can I attempt to answer?
[07:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> ho hum. no bzr-git in Debian. I thought there was :/ *will have to check the ppa*
[08:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> should I report bugs in Debians bzr/bzr-git in bugs.debian or launchpad? I was about to send it to bugs.debian, then noticed the 'please file in launchpad' in the backtrace message
[08:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'll file in debian, it can be forwarded if needed.
[12:21] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: generally speaking, if its an upstream bug, file it upstream
[12:21] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: only bugs that are debian specific are useful to file in the debian bugtracker
[12:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> fair cop.
[12:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> well, its in debians. i'll put it upstream next time. :)
[12:26] <vadi2> Would bzr-gtk be updated in the bzr ppa sometime? It's not working with the current version in it for a pair of days
[12:28] <vadi2> Ест
[15:16] <xnox> Hello =D is there a 1.15 installer for Leopard? In download's area I can only see 1.15rc1 for Tiger....
[18:27] <AnAnt> Hello, a question about bzr builddeb
[18:27] <AnAnt> if I close a launchpad bug in debian/changelog, then I do a: bzr ci
[18:27] <AnAnt> will that automatically do --fixes=lp:<bug num>
[18:27] <AnAnt> ?
[18:30] <LarstiQ> I doubt it.
[18:30] <LarstiQ> wonder how to exactly approach that
[18:31] <LarstiQ> AnAnt: something like that sounds like a cool feature though :)
[18:31] <LarstiQ> james_w: ^^
[19:17] <james_w> damn, missed him
[19:18] <james_w> LarstiQ: I would actually love to add that feature. I sent a mail to the list a couple of months ago with a proposed design for a new pre-commit hook that would allow it to happen
[19:19] <LarstiQ> james_w: bzr list, because the current pre-commit hook design doesn't allow it?
[19:19] <james_w> yeah
[19:19] <LarstiQ> ok
[19:19] <james_w> or at least doesn't allow it to be done well
[19:19] <LarstiQ> right
[19:19] <LarstiQ> james_w: are you going to be at EuroPython?
[19:19] <james_w> unfortunately not
[19:20] <james_w> I thought I was, but something else came up
[19:20] <LarstiQ> aw :(
[19:20] <james_w> yeah
[19:20] <james_w> would have been great to see you again
[19:22]  * LarstiQ nods