[00:03] <gunndawg> how come every time I open update manager and do More > Advanced > Configure Software Sources all it does it proceede to "check for updates" wont open the window to configure sources
[02:15] <GunnDawg> is there a way to make windows transparent? similar to the way you can make the konsole transparent?
[02:17] <GunnDawg> using 14.04 btw
[02:56] <est31> hi there, plasma-desktop aquiring too much system resources, any ideas to help?
[02:57] <est31>  http://pasteboard.co/7Qkql9j.png
[03:06] <hrothmund> idk @est31, but those are some serious periodic components. haha
[03:08] <hrothmund> running any games/ video?
[03:08] <est31> nope
[03:09] <est31> the issue is it stays that way hrothmund until I log out and back in again
[03:09] <est31> when I "freshly" log in, everything is fine again
[03:09] <hrothmund> does kwin --replace &
[03:09] <hrothmund> hve the same effect
[03:10] <est31> nope kwin --replace & didn't resolve
[03:11] <hrothmund> hmm
[03:12] <hrothmund> only thought i have is graphics card drivers, try both proprietary and open-source if availiable
[03:12] <est31> :/
[03:13] <est31> two additional things: during plasma desktop being 100% CPU, the taskbar becomes unresponsive
[03:14] <est31> 2. when I maximize/minimize a window very often, it provocates more spikes
[03:14] <hrothmund> any widgets you recently installed  on the taskbar?
[03:14] <est31> no
[03:14] <est31> no reall custom widgets at all
[03:15] <hrothmund> that makes sense, both of those things are managed by KDE, which is what plasma-desktop is (part of)
[03:15] <est31> clock "show desktop" a launcher for konsole...
[03:15] <est31> alt tab still works though
[03:15] <hrothmund> what graphics card do you have?
[03:16] <est31> Radeon HD 4250
[03:18] <est31> driver=radeon
[03:20] <hrothmund> im not really an expert, but from what i can see, these bugs are not uncommon with KDE... i know thats not really helpful.. haha
[03:20] <est31> :/ thanks though
[03:21] <hrothmund> sure, ill let yo know if i come across a solution
[03:25] <hrothmund> it could be that the driver isnt letting your GPU draw anything, putting all the load on your CPU, you could try the open-source replacement (install instructions here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RadeonDriver) or if thats the driver you are using, then just go inrto additional drivers and activate the proprietary version
[03:33] <est31> I'll give that a try...
[03:33] <est31> any way to get plasma-desktop do more logging?
[04:41] <Etriaph> oops, plasma got blowed up
[04:43] <hyper_ch> Etriaph: ?
[04:44] <Etriaph> hyper_ch: Oh, it was my fault, I had to kill the session.
[05:10] <GunnDawg> is there a way to make windows transparent? similar to the way you can make the konsole transparent? (I'm using 14.04)
[05:13] <Etriaph> GunnDawg: You can set title bar actions that can make them translucent, I have mine set for scrollwheel on titlebar.
[05:14] <Etriaph> GunnDawg: System Settings -> Window Behavior: Titlebar Actions
[05:14] <Etriaph> Change Wheel Event to Opacity
[05:14] <GunnDawg> I'll take a look. thanks
[05:16] <hrothmund> okay has anyone had this issue: after about 30 mins- hour of use, my lappy stops being able to see any wireless networks...relogging seems to fix...for another 30 mins. my wireless card is a Broadcom if that helps.
[05:20] <hyper_ch> hrothmund: file a bug report
[05:21] <hrothmund> yeah, will do, the only people who seem to talk about this specific issue are arch users and they speak a whole other langueage. haha
[08:34] <Fleck> https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showthread.php?67535-File-dialogs-aren-t-working-quot-URL-cannot-be-listed-trash-quot <<<< same problem here, help! Can't reinstall, need solution! :D
[08:35] <lordievader> Good morning.
[08:36] <Fleck> morning!
[08:36] <luca__> Hello! Anyone who noticed kubuntu 15.04 is confusing headphones with speakers?
[08:57] <tongchia> ...
[09:01] <arunce> hello, anyone here did the last backport updates? Any problems with the system tray and telepathy?
[11:22] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:53] <mflow> Has anyone here used a laptop with two monitors? I'm interested in the setup needed to make that work. Currently only one monitor works, if I try to add the 2nd it says 'MetaMode 1 of Screen 0 has more than 2 active display devices'
[11:56] <lordievader> mflow: What is the output of xrandr?
[11:58] <mflow> lordievader: https://paste.kde.org/pssszyjku/phn5vw/raw
[11:59] <lordievader> mflow:  You want a triple screen setup?
[11:59] <mflow> lordievader: yes, 1) VGA monitor 2) Laptop 3) HDMI monitor
[11:59] <lordievader> Right, I got a similar setup.
[12:00] <lordievader> What happens when you enable two monitors?
[12:00] <Avihay_work> mflow, last post might interest you : http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/hardware-peripherals/194281-looking-triple-monitor-solution-vga-hdmi-stock-laptop-screen.html
[12:01] <mflow> lordievader: the error above is raised by Nvidia X Server Settings
[12:01] <mflow> lordievader: What did you do to make it work? Custom xorg.conf?
[12:01] <lordievader> Yes and no. I use the opensource radeon driver. Kscreen works fine with it.
[12:01] <lordievader> I do have an xorg.conf simply to make lightdm more pleasing.
[12:01] <mflow> lordievader: In my case it turns off one of the monitors and gives that error
[12:02] <mflow> but I'm using the Nvidia driver
[12:02] <mflow> Maybe the problem is with it
[12:02] <lordievader> mflow: Do you configure them through the nvidia x config or through kscreen?
[12:02] <mflow> Avihay_work: thanks, I'll have a look
[12:03] <mflow> lordievader: I've tried both ways; I'll give it a shot again, with a clean config
[12:07] <mflow> Avihay_work: yeah, that's probably it, my card/laptop is from 2008
[12:08] <mflow> but I'm gonna try everything I can before settling on the fact that the Nvidia card doesn't support more than 2 monitors, as the xrandr says  it support a max resolution of maximum 8192 x 8192 and my current resolution is 3840 x 1200
[12:08] <mflow> maybe with the aid of some kind of hardware device also
[12:09] <lordievader> mflow: With the closed source driver my setup didn't support the full resolution either. Though the max resolution was more than enough...
[12:19] <MoonUnit`> remembered this old story, nvidia should work with up to 3 monitors even though it can handle more.
[12:19] <MoonUnit`> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-linux-basemosaic-ubuntu-parity,24519.html
[12:23] <luca__> Hello! Anyone who noticed kubuntu 15.04 is confusing headphones with speakers?
[12:27] <mflow> MoonUnit`: interesting
[12:29] <mflow> MoonUnit`: but the "Support for up to four separate displays -- three of them in 3D -- off a single card for a massive 3D gaming experience " was a marketing feature for Kepler GPU Architecture when they sold the GPUs back in 2012, as per https://web.archive.org/web/20140906201224/http://nvidianews.nvidia.com/News/NVIDIA-Launches-First-GeForce-GPUs-Based-on-Next-Generation-Kepler-Architecture-79b.aspx
[12:33] <mflow> luca__: In what sense is K15.04 confusing headphones with speakers? Do you mean inside the KDE Mixer? Or you don't have sound when you start your machine with your headphones unplugged?
[12:36] <luca__> mflow: yes, in kmix it seems I get sound on the speakers only when I set headphones. And when I set speakers... I don't get audio on the headphones anyway...
[12:39] <luca__> mflow: no wait, sorry, by setting headphones I get audio on both.
[12:41] <mflow> luca__: haven't experienced that myself, will check it out as soon as I upgrade the machine I'm currently on to Kubuntu 15.04, which will be later today
[12:42] <natacus> I am after using the live usb creaor ing in kubuntu 14.04 to make a stick for installing 15.04 when i try to boot from it it says something like "cmb r034 error cannt boot, boot: >.." well someting like that :)
[12:42] <Fleck> https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showthread.php?67535-File-dialogs-aren-t-working-quot-URL-cannot-be-listed-trash-quot <<<< same problem here, help! Can't reinstall, need solution! :D
[12:53] <natacus> I am after using the live usb creaor ing in kubuntu 14.04 to make a stick for installing 15.04 when i try to boot from it it says something like "cmb r034 error cannt boot, boot: >.." well someting like that :)
[12:55] <Deetster> i know this is a pretty simple thing, but i can not for the life of me remember how to exicute a java application from a .jar file :/
[12:57] <mflow> Deetster: java -jar filename.jar
[12:57] <Deetster> thanks
[12:58] <mflow> Deetster: in the simplest case, the jar might need additional things in the JVM classpath to be able to run or you might need to pass it some additional command line arguments
[12:58] <Deetster> mflow: is it possible to create a shortcut to it?
[12:59] <mflow> Deetster: yes, but it only makes sense if the Java app has a GUI; you can try defining a shortcut as: java -jar /absolute/path/to/the/jar/filename.jar
[13:00] <Deetster> it does have a gui, tightvnc java viewer
[13:00] <Deetster> and thanks for the help
[13:55] <z4sk4> hi all
[13:55] <z4sk4> i am trying install plasma 5.2 on kubuntu 14.04 but is imposible for me
[13:55] <z4sk4> the bsckports that i try install for that dont response...
[13:55] <z4sk4> i must have 15.04? because on 15.05 drivers of wifi dosnt work
[13:59] <lordievader> z4sk4: Plasma5 on Trusty ain't supported.
[14:00] <lordievader> z4sk4: What wifi chip do you have?
[14:00] <z4sk4> thanks lordievader, so what happend then with drivers for wifi on kubuntu 15.04? we must whait? beccause on 14.04 i dont need install backports (compact-wirelles)
[14:00] <z4sk4> lordievader: RTL
[14:01] <z4sk4> there are some package on 15.04 for all wifis? because i work in auditoria and i will like use kubuntu 15.04
[14:01] <hateball> It's entirely possible you're using modules that were removed from staging in later kernels
[14:01] <hateball> realtek arent exactly known for making things that deserve to end up in any sort of stable kernel
[14:02] <MoonUnit`> please please please kscreen, if a game breaks my multiscreen settings don't save them without asking me if that's ok.
[14:04] <wolftune> My 14.04.2 system had been recognizing my power management settings at some point in the past, but now it doesn't. It gets to a certain power and doesn't suspend when expected or change screen brightness or anything…
[14:04] <wolftune> help?
[14:05] <z4sk4> hateball: isnt some package for install all wifis in kubuntu 15.04? because on 14.04 i dont need install nothing (except backports for some inyects of chipsets)
[14:07] <lordievader> z4sk4: Depends on the chipset.
[14:07] <hateball> z4sk4: It's either in the kernel directly, or in the package for restricted modules. The GUI driver installer should show you
[14:08] <hateball> But as I said, it may have been removed and you need backports for a version that works
[14:08] <hateball> z4sk4: What's the exact chipset you're using?
[14:08] <lordievader> lspci |grep Networking
[14:09] <z4sk4> hateball: its the realtek of alfa networking (i dont know sure now)
[14:09] <z4sk4> but the problem on kubuntu 15.04 its that when i install backports for monitoring i must stop network-manager
[14:10] <z4sk4> and on 14.04 didnt happent, so i lise the ether net conexión for monitoring wirelles :S
[14:10] <z4sk4> lose*
[14:10] <z4sk4> and i think its because i havent got the normal driver... maybe its other think
[14:11] <z4sk4> but the realtek its very old, yeah
[14:12] <lordievader> Ah, it could be that support is dropped.
[14:12] <z4sk4> lordievader: mmmm ok... but the problem for stop network-manager to monitoring? i dont wanna install wicd...
[14:13] <lordievader> What? I do not understand the question.
[14:14] <hateball> z4sk4: If you run "lspci|grep -i network" what does it return ?
[14:14] <z4sk4> lordievader: my real problem on kubuntu 15.04 its that i must stop network.manager demon to monitoring (with mon0)... and on 14.04 i dont need do that
[14:14] <z4sk4> hateball:  i going to install again 15.04 in the other machine and i will tell you
[14:14] <lordievader> Mon0? That is not an interface that is enabled by default.
[14:15] <z4sk4> lordievader: yeah, i run airmon-ng to "activate" the monitoring interface, but this interface dosnt work if i dont stop network-manager, that its the strain problem
[14:16] <z4sk4> strange* sorry for my bad english
[14:16] <lordievader> z4sk4: Set network manger to not manage that interface.
[14:17] <z4sk4> lordievader: ok, give me 15 or 20 min to install again 15.04 in the other machine
[14:19] <lordievader> z4sk4: http://stackoverflow.com/a/15180077
[14:23] <z4sk4> lordievader: that link its very interesting! i will try it... but maybe i wanna use wirelles for conenct and other times to monitoring... i will see all the options to try fix it, thanks
[14:23] <qua-non> hey guys
[14:23] <lordievader> o/
[14:23] <qua-non> videos play at double speed and have no sound kubuntun 14.05
[14:25] <qua-non> tried rm -r ~/.config/pulse; pulseaudio -k didn't help
[14:27] <lordievader> qua-non: What is the output of 'lspci -k|grep -A2 Audio'?
[14:27] <lordievader> !paste | qua-non
[14:28] <qua-non> http://paste.opensuse.org/34133769
[14:28] <qua-non> lordievader, ^
[14:28] <lordievader> qua-non: Do things play at normal speed when you use aplay (can only play wav files)
[14:29] <qua-non> downloading a wav sample to check
[14:30] <qua-non> got no audio with aplay either
[14:31] <lordievader> No audio at all?
[14:31] <qua-non> yup
[14:31] <qua-non> I am in virtualbox
[14:31] <qua-non> audio plays outside
[14:31] <lordievader> qua-non: Ah.
[14:31] <qua-non> everything was working this morning before todays update
[14:31] <lordievader> qua-non: Is Kubuntu the host or the guest?
[14:32] <qua-non> kubuntu guest on osx host
[14:32] <lordievader> Hmm, I have no experience with OSX hosts. Check the virtualbox audio settings and in the guest alsamixer.
[14:32] <qua-non> I see there are updates , lemme install and reboot to see if it heps
[14:33] <qua-non> lordievader, everything is the same from host settings, where it was working in the morning but isn't now, I am double checking settings to be sure though
[14:44] <qua-non> lordievader, updating and rebooting didn't help
[14:44] <lordievader> qua-non: Could you give me the update history of today?
[14:45] <qua-non> dunno how?
[14:45] <qua-non> does apt-get have a command for this?
[14:45] <lordievader> qua-non: See /var/log/apt/history.log
[14:46] <qua-non> ok, one moment
[14:47] <qua-non> http://paste.opensuse.org/84402911
[14:47] <genii> Better yet, pastebin the entire file
[14:47] <genii> Hm
[14:50] <lordievader> qua-non: Was it broken before you installed pavucontrol?
[14:50] <qua-non> yes
[14:51] <lordievader> Hmm, in the update before that ther is nothing that has to do with audio.
[14:51] <qua-non> I have the same issue with upstart or systemd choosen at startup, just fyi
[14:52] <goodtime> anyone ever try bluefish editor here befor?
[14:52] <goodtime> trying to build my first website
[14:54] <ejay> goodtime: why bluefish? komodo is great with less messy UI or atom (I'm using this right now) for minimum UI and maximum possibilities.
[14:54] <lordievader> Kdevelop :D
[14:54] <kibou> Kate
[14:54] <arunce> emacs
[14:54] <qua-non> obligatory vim
[14:54] <ejay> windows notepad
[14:55] <goodtime> well like i said it is my first time doing this
[14:55] <lordievader> Kdevelop was actually serious, it has a rather nice php plugin.
[14:55] <goodtime> so i saw bluefish
[14:55] <goodtime> idk
[14:55] <goodtime> ty lordievader
[14:55] <goodtime> ill install it
[14:56] <ejay> goodtime: you dont want to start with kdevelop :P
[14:56] <goodtime> ok
[14:56] <goodtime> why would that be?
[14:56] <ejay> goodtime: try komodo ide. its free.
[14:57] <ejay> goodtime: sorry, komodo edit
[14:57] <goodtime> oic you think because it is my first time .........
[14:57] <goodtime> ill try all of them
[14:57] <goodtime> i need to do this
[14:57] <goodtime> its for my boss
[14:57] <ejay> goodtime: yeah, sure. good idea
[14:57] <goodtime> we need more work
[14:58] <goodtime> so im givin it a shot
[14:58] <goodtime> yeah i went back to work
[14:58] <goodtime> no more free ride for this kid
[14:59] <ejay> goodtime: tbh, you can make any website in any text editor with syntax highlighting
[14:59] <goodtime> ok
[15:39] <qua-non> lordievader, fyi issue solved by removing sound adapter ->boot, shutdown-> add adapter-> boot
[15:53] <lordievader> qua-non: Pff, strange stuff.
[16:40] <64MACRWVX> Hello
[16:40] <Fleck> https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showthread.php?67535-File-dialogs-aren-t-working-quot-URL-cannot-be-listed-trash-quot <<<< same problem here, help! Can't reinstall, need solution! :D
[16:41] <64MACRWVX> after upgrade on kubuntu 15.04 my dual monitor stops working
[16:42] <64MACRWVX> only after turn off cable my laptop works correctly on new kubuntu
[16:42] <64MACRWVX> and only laptop monitor works
[16:43] <64MACRWVX> if both enabled i see very weird splashes an regions are located incorrectly
[16:44] <64MACRWVX> i use fglrx proprietary driver
[16:44] <64MACRWVX> what the first i need to do/
[16:44] <64MACRWVX> ?
[17:02] <mflow> 64MACRWVX: Did you overwrite the /etc/X11/xorg.conf config  at upgrade time ?
[17:02] <mflow> 64MACRWVX: maybe you need to setup the dual monitor setup again using the AMD graphics tool/thingy
[17:02] <64MACRWVX> mannually no
[17:03] <mflow> check the /etc/X11 directory
[17:03] <mflow> maybe it overwrote the xorg.conf file BUT it did a backup
[17:03] <64MACRWVX> i found amd driver working correctly on one monitor
[17:03] <64MACRWVX> ok, tnx
[17:03] <mflow> you can just copy the backup over the xorg.conf file and it should work
[17:06] <64MACRWVX> xorg.conf.dist-upgrade-201505051909
[17:06] <64MACRWVX> i think this one
[17:06] <64MACRWVX> ?
[17:10] <mflow> could be, check its contents
[17:10] <mflow> and compare with the existing xorg.conf
[17:10] <mflow> It should have 2 Monitor sections in it
[17:20] <est31> Hi there having issues with plasma-desktop http://pasteboard.co/7Qkql9j.png
[17:20] <est31> any ideas?
[17:21] <Fleck> had something similar when using pulseaudio
[17:33] <EvilRoey> o/ BluesKaj
[17:33] <EvilRoey> valorie:  hey!!
[17:33] <EvilRoey> valorie:  *hug*, first and foremost;
[17:34] <EvilRoey> valorie:  second, you mentioned that settings from ~/.kde/share/config have migrated to ~/.config and ~/.local.  So I tried getting out of X, copying the files to ~/.config and restarting X, only to find that the configurations didn't take hold...
[17:34] <EvilRoey> BluesKaj:  any ideas?
[17:34] <EvilRoey> (this is after moving from Plasma 4 -> Plama 5.3)
[17:36] <ik_> helo
[17:36] <EvilRoey> o.
[17:36] <EvilRoey> * o/
[17:37] <ik_> i have a problem with knotes
[17:39] <mflow> ik_: that is?
[18:28] <natacus> anyone been using the chat client in kubutu 15.04?
[18:32] <MoonUnit`> i tried it but went back to pidgin
[18:34] <Etriaph> G'day folks.
[18:38] <MoonUnit`> so far since this mornings kf5 updates plasmashell has kept to low cpu.
[18:43] <hyper_ch> you give your cpus some time off? oO
[18:43] <Fleck> ;p
[19:23] <LucasHC> Is there a specific language in use? I'm sorry for this question, but this is my first use of IRC.
[19:24] <keithzg_> In this channel, English.
[19:24] <LucasHC> Thank you
[19:24] <keithzg_> No problem.
[19:25] <bprompt> !en | LucasHC
[19:35] <muh2000> hi all
[19:37] <muh2000> i am running 15.04 and have an issue with dual monitor setup. when the 2nd one is switched off, my desktop can be moved towards the direction of the 2nd one.  - how to make the 1st stick where it is and omit the other part ?!?
[19:37] <Etriaph> muh2000: Either the monitor is attached or it's not.
[19:38] <Etriaph> Switching it off doesn't make that part of the desktop appear as long as it's still connected to the PC.
[19:38] <Etriaph> s/appear/disappear
[19:38] <muh2000> Etriaph: the 2nd monitor is attached but switched off. only used for HDMI sound (is actually a amplifier....)
[19:38] <muh2000> Etriaph: yeah but the desktop moving part is new....
[19:41] <Etriaph> muh2000: If you have two monitors attached to the PC, and you turn one off, you still have that *entire* desktop space.  Turning off the 2nd monitor will not change your desktop dimensions, you'd have to disconnect it each time.
[19:42] <muh2000> Etriaph: i got it already but still i dont want the desktop slide to the space where the 2nd monitor is supposed to be.  14.10 didnt do that
[20:04] <mflow> muh2000: disable the 2nd monitor in kscreen when its turned off
[20:20] <p0lym0rf1c> hi all, does anyone know how to get the kde plasma widget list to refresh?
[20:21] <p0lym0rf1c> I installed some new widgets through muon discover, but they aren't showing up in my widget list
[20:21] <muh2000> mflow: when it is turned off, i cannot disable it.
[20:21] <p0lym0rf1c> but do show up if I use "plasmapkg -la'
[20:23] <spameris> p0lym0rf1c i have same problem :)
[20:23] <spameris> so you are not alone
[20:24] <p0lym0rf1c> spameris: that's good to know... I think :)
[20:25] <Fleck> cha Andri
[20:28] <spameris> Hi Fleck
[20:30] <Fleck> well, I can't even install widgets :D
[20:31] <Fleck> I have a problem with kio_file I guess, dunno whats wrong with it
[20:31] <soee> p0lym0rf1c: maybe they are not compatible ? what kubuntu version are you running ?
[20:35] <p0lym0rf1c> soee: 15.04
[20:36] <soee> p0lym0rf1c: yeah they need to be ported to kf5 i think etc.
[20:37] <p0lym0rf1c> do you know if there is anywhere I can check to see if that's the prob?
[20:38] <p0lym0rf1c> would have expect it to throw a log message
[20:38] <p0lym0rf1c> may go install some plasma debug stuff
[20:39] <p0lym0rf1c> well, actually, would you expect plasoidviewer to fail if that were the case?
[20:40] <soee> p0lym0rf1c: what widgets are we talking about ?
[20:43] <p0lym0rf1c> I have tried, cwp, yahoo weather, and quickview
[20:46] <MoonUnit`> need to install qml-module-qtquick-xmllistmodel to get yahoo weather to work.
[20:52] <p0lym0rf1c> MoonUnit`: yep, already fixed that :)
[20:53] <p0lym0rf1c> it wasn't actually yahoo weather that i installed, that was already there
[20:53] <p0lym0rf1c> it was yawp
[21:23] <acz32> how is the state of kubuntu on laptops with touchscreen? is unity still the best DE for those?
[21:52] <shinka> I haven't been on KDE for a while, I just booted to a USB key with Kubuntu 15.04, and I'm not sure how to connect to my wifi network. There's the network editor, but where I can see the networks automatically detected by Kubuntu? (Ubuntu 15.04 automatically detected many wifi networks on the same laptop, so Kubuntu should also be able to see them).
[22:00] <Roey> HI
[22:00] <Roey> wakawaka
[22:00] <Roey> :)
[23:45] <id_> good evening
[23:45] <Derreck> Howdy.
[23:46] <danielle441> hey guys I was having a weird issue with kmail where it wouldnt use the gpg agent to ask for my password for an encrypted email and just kept saying "incorrect password". I made some minor changes to the gpg conf file then tried to kill -9 the agent. suddenly I got logged out and then I couldnt log back in again at all. just kept dumping me back at the login screen. im on a second account now, looks like I'm locked out of my regular one until I can
[23:46] <danielle441> figure this out. Any idea whats gone wrong?
[23:47] <id_> can any one here tell if using the instruntions in ubuntu site to create a live cd i can use a iso from kubuntu/zorinos or other ubuntu deriv
[23:48] <danielle441> I mean the shell logins are still fine just somethings gone wrong with the agent I guess?
[23:51] <danielle441> so this is what I did: I removed an old, invalid .gnupg/gpg-agent.conf (from an old, none linux computer), symlinked ~/.gnupg/gpg-agent-<mycomputer> to ~/.gnupg/gpg-agent.conf, and added the line "pinentry-program /usr/bin/pinentry-gtk". and then I killed the agent. why would that log me out and stop me from logging back in again?


[02:34] <sharms> is the ipw2200bg card currently supported in feisty?  I just booted, restricted manager said it was using driver ipw3894abg  but I didnt see a device, then when I rebooted the card stopped working, I think it may have flashed it with the wrong firmware?
[02:34] <crimsun> err, what?
[02:35] <crimsun> the ipw2200 certainly is supported via the ipw2200 driver
[02:35] <sharms> right but for some reason feisty identified it as ipw3894abg
[02:35] <crimsun> I'm not sure what you mean by "it may have flashed it with the wrong firmware", though
[02:35] <sharms> if I do an ls pci it shows 2200bg
[02:35] <crimsun> which module is loaded?
[02:35] <sharms> not sure, I didnt know if we flash it with firmware like my old wireless card (prism54)
[02:36] <crimsun> well, if by "flash" you mean "upload", then yes
[02:36] <sharms> the first time it was ipw3945.ko, subsequent reboots (with bios error message) use ipw2200
[02:38] <sharms> Its not a big deal for me hardware wise, but if it was somehow related that could be a big issue
[02:38] <crimsun> that's a very odd issue (rather, I've not seen that happen before. PCI ID mismatch?)
[02:38] <sharms> It may have been a bad card from the git-go, I just got it an hour ago
[02:39] <sharms> I believe the first time it booted it identified itself was ipw3945 on the lspci
[02:39] <sharms> but since reboot it said ipw2200
[02:42] <sharms>  ipw3945: MAC is in deep sleep!
[02:42] <sharms> ipw3945: Unable to int nic
[02:43] <crimsun> I suppose you could use /usr/bin/update-pciids
[02:43] <mjg59> ipw2200 and ipw3945 are very different cards
[02:43] <sharms> well it no longer identifies as ipw3945
[02:43] <sharms> it now identifies as ipw2200
[02:43] <mjg59> Given that one is PCI and one is PCIE
[02:43] <crimsun> yeah, that error really makes no sense to me
[02:43] <sharms> but it is conflicting with other devices it says now
[02:43] <sharms> from the bios that is
[02:43] <mjg59> lspci -n please
[02:44] <sharms> the card is out right now, back to prism54 let me reboot
[02:44] <mjg59> Nothing the drivers do can alter the card in a non-volatile way
[02:45] <mjg59> If it's going in the same slot as a prism54, it's not an ipw3945
[02:49] <sharms> mjg59: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/14502/
[02:55] <mjg59> That's certainly an ipw2200
[02:55] <mjg59> It's mini-pci, right?
[02:56] <sharms> ya
[02:56] <sharms> its in my laptop
[02:56] <mjg59> So it can't possibly be ipw3945
[02:57] <mjg59> That's only available in mini-pcie form
[02:57] <sharms> right thats why I was worried maybe ipw3945 might have done something to it somehow
[02:57] <mjg59> No
[02:57] <sharms> ok so then I will just write this one off on bad hardware, I just wanted to run it by you guys
[03:21] <sharms> mjg59: doing some addition research (looks like you may have been involved in some of this), could it be that my bios may have a whitelist of cards and that could be causing the issue?
[03:29] <sharms> mjg59: how dangerous would it be to use your whitelist bios modifier?
[03:32] <sharms> ha just went for it will let you know
[03:53] <mjg59> BenC: #96480 probably ought to be critical?
[04:40] <BenC> mjg59: marked and milestone'd
[04:40] <mjg59> Ta
[05:32] <BenC> Interesting, latest vmware w6 seems to use vmx extensions on linux
[05:47] <stgraber> hey BenC, about that, I wondered why I can't activate the paravirtualisation stuff with the latest version of VM W6 and a Core2 Duo with the VT ?
[05:47] <BenC> paravirt only works on 32-bit
[05:47] <BenC> and I'm running it enabled right now, so I know it works
[05:48] <stgraber> strange, I'm using 2.6.20-14 on 32-bit
[05:48] <BenC> You have to go to your virtual machine pref's, Other tab, Advanced, and check the box for paravirt
[05:48] <BenC> it's not enabled in ws6 by default
[05:49] <stgraber> yep, but I simply can't because it's grayed with the latest version of ws6
[05:49] <BenC> what build do you have?
[05:49] <stgraber> 42757
[05:49] <BenC> e.x.p build-42757
[05:50] <BenC> you have to power off the vm first
[05:50] <stgraber> it's powered off
[05:50] <BenC> talk to vmware
[05:51] <BenC> Just checked on mine, and it let's me check/uncheck it as long as the vm is powered off, and I've setup for a 32-bit OS
[05:53] <stgraber> hmm, seems to work with an all new VM and the same settings. I'll maybe have to report this to vmware ...
[07:22] <finalbeta> I'm starting to fear Feisty could air with this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/98782 , And that would render it unusable for me. Check out the latest attached dmesg. I hope I don't overstep any boundaries here, but the desperate... :p. It's 15 minutes now to boot, and the latest 2 kernels give errors about the CD drive also. Dapper and Feisty ran fine, and <IP_ADDRESS> and lower ran fine.
[07:30] <mjg59> Does it boot at the normal speed if you disconnect the CD drive?
[07:31] <finalbeta> Will try.
[07:34] <finalbeta> No, doesn't seem to change anything
[07:34] <mjg59> But you no longer get the ata1.01 errors?
[07:34] <finalbeta> Not yet, I'm waiting, it can take a while...
[07:34] <finalbeta> It's just sitting there. (figuratively)
[07:35] <finalbeta> Yep, no more errors, and after the initial stall, It boots much faster.
[07:35] <finalbeta> Already at the login screen.
[07:36] <mjg59> Ok. So it's pretty clearly linked to the unhappiness with the CD drive.
[07:36] <finalbeta> definitely.
[07:36] <mjg59> You're using an 80-wire cable, right?
[07:37] <finalbeta> Ehm, It's a dell laptop. I have no idea what so ever.
[07:37] <mjg59> Ah, ok. Interesting.
[07:37] <finalbeta> I can't screw that part open also...
[07:37] <mjg59> What model?
[07:37] <finalbeta> Tried before, couldn't do it.
[07:37] <finalbeta> Inspiron 8200
[07:37] <mjg59> Ok.
[07:37] <finalbeta> At least 5 years old.
[07:38] <mjg59> Don't have anything with that chipset here
[07:38] <mjg59> I'll have to leave that with Ben, then
[07:38] <finalbeta> I'll add that removing the cd drive fixes it, and add a dmesg to the report when booting without CD drive.
[07:39] <finalbeta> Thanks for helping me out.
[07:44] <_ion> benc: bzr branch http://johan.kiviniemi.name/software/bzr/hardware_connected/
[07:45] <_ion> benc: Usage example: if modinfo -F alias nvidia-9755 | hardware_connected; then echo "nvidia-9755 compatible hardware is connected" ...
[07:58] <_ion> benc: Assuming all nvidia drivers are moved to a single nvidia-glx package and alternatives are used instead of diverts, here are simplified preinst scripts that should remove *all* old diverts, without a need to list them manually. http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/nvidia-glx-dev.preinst.in http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/nvidia-glx.preinst.in
[07:58] <_ion> s/diverts/divertions/g
[07:59] <fabbione> _ion: you can't just remove diversions. diverts can be done by sysadmins too. you need to be careful there
[08:00] <_ion> fabbione: It only removes diversions made specifically by nvidia-glx packages.
[08:00] <fabbione> and what happens if you hit a custom one? how would you switch to use alternatives?
[08:01] <fabbione> anyway.. it's S U N D A Y
[08:01] <fabbione> and i should stop reading IRC
[08:01] <fabbione> :)
[08:02] <_ion> I haven't really given a lot of thought to special cases in this regard. I believe that when there are multiple nvidia modules installed and the system's supposed to automatically use the right one based on connected hardware, alternatives is the way to go.
[08:03] <fabbione> ok an init script that sets the right links like /lib/modules../volatile
[08:03] <fabbione> s/ok/or
[08:04] <fabbione> given that you can actually change hw across reboot
[08:04] <fabbione> providing a set of alternatives will make it complicated for normal users to switch between driver versions
[08:04] <_ion> nvidia.ko isn't going to be linked using alternatives, but IMO libGL and nvidia_drv.so should.
[08:05] <fabbione> not my call.. but i don't believe alternatives is the right solution
[08:06] <_ion> benc: Any comments to the discussion above?
[09:03] <zdzichuBG> hi


[06:40] <Mirv> hi, I'm looking at bug #1304214 - since it's a theme change, it only affects docs, right? and since it's a ubuntu studio docs, are you handling studio's docs too in practice ie. can I just get "ack" from someone amongst you who is working on the studio's docs in general?
[06:41] <Mirv> the normal UIFe process is to get an ack from translations and docs teams, but I feel this's a bit special case
[06:42] <Noskcaj> zequence^
[06:42] <elfy> zequence: I'm not sure how 'much' bug 1284635 will affect you, but we've decided not to ship it while it's as broken as it is for us
[06:43] <Mirv> ...and since it's a lightdm change, I guess there only needs to be general understanding where could lightdm screenshots lurk of Ubuntu Studio 14.04
[06:45] <Noskcaj> Mirv, It's either zequence or OvenWerk1 that will be able to answer your question, i'm not sure they're around
[06:46] <Mirv> yeah, there's time, I'll just make some preparations meanwhile and emailed ubuntu-doc mailing list
[06:47] <Mirv> debdiff looks correct, the new background is there in ubuntustudio-wallpapers
[07:03] <Mirv> I'll also take a look on the LMMS 1.0.0 + patches thingy
[07:24] <zequence> Mirv: I do both release and docs, so makes things simple for me :)
[07:25] <Mirv> zequence: ok, I'll take that as "UIFe granted"! :D
[07:25] <zequence> Mirv: Yep. Thanks.
[07:44] <Mirv> zequence: teema sponsoroitu
[08:12] <zequence> Mirv: Kiitos!
[08:27] <cub> elfy, zequence, about  bug 1284635, I have set myself as affected as it has shown up on every test run I've done. My main laptop now is running 14.04 and the bug is there and a bit annoying.
[08:43] <Mirv> would there be some people ready for a) testing my LMMS build from ppa:timo-jyrinki/ppa  b) discuss the git/bzr/etc source repositories of it
[09:29] <Mirv> ok b) can be ignored, I finally got it and verified the git master <-> bzr <-> packaging delta
[09:29] <Mirv> so I'd just need testing
[09:58] <Mirv> ok I commented on bug #1291675 too, hopefully LMMS will get testing. the packaging is a bit of a mess, but now it shouldn't be too much messier than what it already is. the 1.0.0 rework by israel anyhow at least brings cleaner debian/rules etc.
[10:00] <Mirv> zequence: ^ you should probably find my PPA's package identical to what you tested before, but I'd like a quick smoke-testing since it was a bit complicated to make the packaging work.
[10:13] <zequence> Mirv: I'll give it a try within the hour.
[10:13] <Mirv> thanks. I did try it, but I've never used it :)
[11:42] <zequence> Mirv: I don't much use it myself either, but I tested the core stuff - audio settings, making some music and selecting some plugins. All worked fine for me.
[12:04] <Mirv> thanks. I need to quit piloting now. you'd need to get a friendly core-dev to upload it and follow #ubuntu-devel where I just mentioned it.
[12:04] <Mirv> my only worry is that the packaging is not very clean lintian wise, even though it wasnt't that before either
[12:53] <Mirv> (...or a MOTU, of course!)
[14:25] <zequence> Mirv: Thanks. I'll try to get someone to upload it :)
[22:30] <len-1404> Looks good. The icons in the menu are fixed I see. The background looks great.
[22:30] <len-1404> Time to install
[22:42] <len-1404> pitivi is already in? Thats fast.
[22:42] <len-1404> I like the updates to the slide show. (I may have already commented on that)
[22:59] <len-1404> It would be nice to preconfigure qjackctl to not complain about pulse still running when it stops jack. I am not sure where to do that though.
[23:10] <len-1404> Anyway... reboot


[06:44] <leonaldo> is it possible that cloudinit will rerun with local configuration if network is not archieveable
[06:45] <leonaldo> i assume that it only run per instance with default configuration。
[07:20] <leonaldo> 😊
[12:26] <rharper> smoser: powersj:  saw this in the log here: <_ix> 22:34:48> Any idea why I'd be getting `<cloudinit.simpletable.SimpleTable object at 0x1e01ed0>` in my network device table output
[12:29] <rharper> would we have a cloud-init.log from a centos boot in ci ?
[12:52] <smoser> rharper, well, its where it is rendering the table for display. :-(
[14:08] <rharper> smoser: right, missing a str method or something
[14:59] <blackboxsw> will check it out. see if I can reproduce it
[15:29] <blackboxsw> rharper: we reproduced it w/ lxd, I'm working on a fix for simpletawble
[15:29] <blackboxsw> simpletable even
[15:36] <rharper> blackboxsw: cool
[15:53] <blackboxsw> looks like that issue with simpletable also broke ssh_authkey_fingerprints
[15:53] <blackboxsw> fix committed locally, adding a couple more unit tests
[16:14] <intheclouddan[m]> is there a clean way to remove a \n from a set_fact? I'm defining a value for it and not sure why that value, IE 0\n or 1\n is being set that way and not just 0 or 1
[16:14] <intheclouddan[m]> wrong room...
[16:36] <blackboxsw> smoser: https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/332066
[16:36] <blackboxsw> intheclouddan[m]: :)
[16:49] <smoser> powersj, when c-i runs on a MP
[16:49] <smoser> it does not collect any artifcats, is that correct ?
[16:49] <powersj> smoser: correct only the console output of the tests
[16:49] <smoser> i'd have hoped to have been able to look at the artifacts from the integration test of the MP abov e from blackboxsw  and see that it had hte desired content in /var/log/cloud-init-output.log
[16:50] <powersj> smoser: put in a card for me and I can change that
[16:51]  * blackboxsw installs on aws, cleaned-boot env to check
[16:52] <smoser> https://trello.com/c/fWq8GFKB
[16:53] <powersj> smoser: thx
[16:57] <blackboxsw> http://paste.ubuntu.com/25714850/ an aws clean-boot run
[16:58] <blackboxsw> with my branch
[17:08] <smoser> blackboxsw, it failed integration test for maas
[17:08] <smoser> i think just because no good reason
[17:08] <smoser> but...
[17:08] <_ix_> I'd be down to test whatever you folks have got.
[17:09] <smoser> _ix_, the simpletable issue you reported is in process of being fixed
[17:09] <smoser> https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/332066
[17:09] <_ix_> That's really great. Thank you!
[17:09] <blackboxsw> yeah that looks like the same case _ix_
[17:09] <blackboxsw> yeah we just ran into that today too
[17:10] <blackboxsw> should have a daily copr build up today with that fix
[17:13] <smoser> powersj, https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/job/cloud-init-ci/398/console
[17:13] <smoser> do you recognize that as "transient yum noise?"
[17:13] <smoser> with a better placement of the '?'
[17:13]  * smoser triggers rebuild
[17:14] <smoser> https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/job/cloud-init-ci/399/
[17:16]  * blackboxsw is trying to build in my centos lxc
[17:16] <powersj> smoser: yes
[17:16] <powersj> Cannot retrieve metalink for repository: epel/x86_64. Please verify its path and try again
[17:16] <powersj> is networking noise/issues
[17:17] <powersj> "mirror.bytemark.co.uk" because we know those super fast US -> UK pipes are always faster... not
[17:19] <smoser> faster than .jp pipes usually .  "faster" is a relative term.
[17:19] <powersj> :)
[17:19] <powersj> true
[17:34] <blackboxsw> ci looks happy this time https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/332066
[17:42] <blackboxsw> also just built and installed on centos7 in an lxc here to validate
[17:54] <blackboxsw> smoser: are you working on the apport bug? otherwise I can peek
[17:55] <blackboxsw>     def raw_input_char(self, prompt):
[17:55] <blackboxsw>         '''raw_input, but read only one character'''
[17:55] <blackboxsw> heh, kinda built into the DialogCLI class
[18:04] <smoser> blackboxsw, you can take a look for sure
[18:04] <smoser> i coudlnt figure out what was getting called
[18:28] <smoser> dmulford_, you there?
[18:28] <smoser> https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+ref/fix/rh-subscription-add-null-check
[18:28] <dmulford_> smoser: yep, what's up?
[18:29] <smoser> just posted on your mp
[18:30] <smoser> blackboxsw, you want to pull your MP
[18:30] <smoser> or i can
[18:30] <blackboxsw> thanks I'll pull. keeps me in practice.
[18:30] <dmulford_> smoser: ahh perfect :)
[18:30] <smoser> ok.
[18:32] <smoser> blackboxsw, ok. pull that, and then you want to do an artful new-upstream-snapshot ?
[18:32] <smoser> and then we can do one for x and z also
[18:32] <smoser> and while i wait i'll just think about the sru bugs.
[18:34] <dmulford_> smoser: thank you, this looks great! I will pull and test it out as you've requested
[18:55] <blackboxsw> smoser: got a lead on the apport fix  http://paste.ubuntu.com/25715415/
[18:56] <blackboxsw> that'll force read two chars if choices are > 10 (10 includes one key for the builtin "C" cancel).
[18:56] <blackboxsw> anyway. onto the MP for cloud-init. then I can manufacture a 'good' fix for apport I think
[18:57] <blackboxsw> was just testing on artful
[19:01] <blackboxsw> merged simpletable fix. working on artful now
[19:03] <blackboxsw> only change in apport behavior is that any choices with greater than 10 items, will have to hit <enter> after single-character choices
[19:03] <smoser> i didnt see where that was
[19:03] <smoser> that you had to hit enter. how does/did you do that ?
[19:04] <smoser> i'd let the choices go to 100 at least before complaint. its a long list, but you raising RuntimeError is just going to make someone not file a bug.
[19:04] <smoser> that they were going to file
[19:05] <blackboxsw> smoser when you say 'y' for simple choices (Y/N/C) it is just one character
[19:05] <smoser> hm... funny. you could instead of raising RuntimeError you could file a bug "too many choices in question 'XXXX'"
[19:05] <blackboxsw> if it's a 18 item choice (like what cloud you are on) you have to hit >enter> for choice 9 or 'c'
[19:06] <smoser> yeah, that makes sense. but ididnt see where you did that in your patch
[19:06] <smoser> it reads 2 chars.
[19:06] <smoser> ah
[19:06] <smoser> .strip()
[19:06] <blackboxsw> yeah 1 chars plus the strip
[19:06] <blackboxsw> 2 I mean
[19:07] <blackboxsw> I was wondering what you thought about that RuntimeError. it's something that should file a bug against package X.
[19:08] <blackboxsw> maybe it just appends to the report that is being created .   .... 'question X had too many choices so user's couldn't respond'
[19:08] <blackboxsw> s/user's/user/
[19:11] <smoser> blackboxsw, why cuoldnt user respond ?
[19:11] <smoser> you arbitrarily picked '50' as too long
[19:12] <smoser> oh. it gets bad when over 100. casue then the user has to hit enter twice for < 10 :)
[19:14] <blackboxsw> heh, will I just thought is was an arbitrarily long set of options to the point that it was unreadable
[19:14] <blackboxsw> just a line in the sand. that doesn't really need to be drawn
[19:14] <blackboxsw> but, the logic itself only handles up to  99 choices
[19:15] <smoser> blackboxsw, i'd let it go to 100. personally.
[19:15] <smoser> i have a scrollbar on my terminal
[19:15] <blackboxsw> heh true
[19:26] <smoser> blackboxsw, https://hackmd.io/BwUwrAhgRg7ADFAtMCBOJAWCDHQGwyIBmcAJqiBnhiAExRRA?both
[19:26] <smoser> cank you see that ?
[19:27] <smoser> kind of etherpad + markdown.
[19:27] <_ix_> Hello again -- do the successful builds appear in copr immediately?
[19:35] <smoser> powersj, can you confirm...
[19:35] <smoser>  https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/view/cloud-init/job/cloud-init-copr-build/
[19:36] <smoser> if i rebuild that, it will do trunk -> copr -> _ix_-gets-what-he-wants
[19:36] <blackboxsw> smoser: I can see that
[19:37] <_ix_> smoser: Very cool. I think we can be patient and wait for the regular nightly and give it a shot tomorrow.
[19:38] <powersj> blackboxsw: yes that pushes to the cloud-init-dev copr repo
[19:38] <powersj> smoser: ^
[19:39] <smoser> _ix_, i just pushed "go"
[19:39] <smoser> so i'm guessing 20 minutes-ish
[19:41] <blackboxsw> ok smoser I'm ready for pushing to artful I think
[19:41] <blackboxsw> got time for a hangout?
[19:41] <blackboxsw> to check that I've gone through  the proper release steps
[19:41] <smoser> yeah
[19:42] <smoser> i'll join in m inute
[19:55] <blackboxsw> smoser: https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/332076
[20:18] <blackboxsw> https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/332078
[20:27] <blackboxsw> https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/332080
[21:31] <powersj> FYI there is a new daily build on COPR https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/g/cloud-init/cloud-init-dev/
[21:44] <smoser> blackboxsw, https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-images/+bug/1722663


[10:17] <Guest96392> can anyone tell me how to get back the unbuntu network manager applet indicator? (nm-applet) there seems to be something missing in mythbuntu in the default install


[08:03] <cjwatson> popey: Looks like those packages you were asking about were auto-synced last night.
[08:08] <popey> super, thanks cjwatson
[09:00] <jibel> Could someone approve update-manager 1:<IP_ADDRESS> in precise-proposed?
[10:39] <shadeslayer> hmmm, how's the libav transition going?
[10:41] <jibel> cjwatson, ^ would you have time to review/approve update-manager in precise today? we need it for testing hwe eol notifications.
[11:21] <cjwatson> jibel: doing
[11:48] <jibel> cjwatson, thank you
[13:02] <ChrisTownsend> cjwatson: Hi!  You are the SRU vanguard today, correct?
[13:36] <ChrisTownsend> cjwatson: If you saw my previous ping, no need to respond.
[14:25] <cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.html  new toy
[14:25] <cjwatson> (also priority, architecture)
[14:26] <cjwatson> also the next build of http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/nbs.html should have a graph
[14:28] <cjwatson> if anyone knows how to make YUI's numeric axes work more sensibly, let me know
[22:27] <utlemming> infintiy, cjwatson: are either of you around?
[22:28] <utlemming> infinity, cjwatson: due to bug #1336855 and the recent Grub SRU for 12.04 anyone running an HVM instance on AWS will lose their instance on reboot.
[22:45] <infinity> utlemming: fun.
[22:46] <utlemming> infinity: yup...and if there is a grub update for 14.04, they'll get burned too
[22:46] <utlemming> infinity: do you have any guidance how to dig out of this hole?
[22:47] <utlemming> infinity: I am leary to put the logic into cloud-init since cloud-init doesn't have a grub dependency
[22:52] <infinity> utlemming: Erm, but the bug is in cloud-init?
[22:53] <utlemming> infinity: right. So what happens is one first boot cloud-init sets a debconf selection for grub-pc "install_devices". Since it doesn't know to look at /dev/xvda and /dev/xvda, grub tries to install to /dev/sda (which is what the images originally had).
[22:53] <infinity> utlemming: Isn't it as simple as making that 1-line change to cc_grub_dpkg.py?
[22:54] <utlemming> infinity: nope. Because that module only runs once.
[22:54] <utlemming> infinity: and then there is the race condition of a user who updates grub and then cloud-init
[22:54] <infinity> utlemming: Then the bug log seems to lie.
[22:55] <utlemming> infinity: adding a better, clarifying comment
[23:01] <utlemming> infinity: clarified the bug
[23:03] <infinity> utlemming: I'm confused how you got in this state in the first place.  Wouldn't have the first run of cloud-init created a broken grub config straight up and this has been wrong since day 1?
[23:04] <utlemming> infinity: the cloud image build process installs grub by hand, since we can't build the images in AWS.
[23:04] <infinity> utlemming: That doesn't really answer my question. :)
[23:05] <infinity> utlemming: Any kernel or grub upgrade would have broken this, so what introduced the bug, and how long has it been broken?
[23:06] <utlemming> infinity: that part I am unsure of. But AWS just reported it. It has been broken since day one. Not having looked, I would guess that grub changed something such that the bits installed on disk don't work with the stuff in /boot/grub.
[23:10] <infinity> utlemming: So, if we really wanted to make this smooth, we could SRU cloud-init with the 1-line fix, and have it conditionally re-run 'cloud-init-cfg grub-dpkg' in its postinst on upgrade from known-broken versions, *and* re-upload a grub SRU with Breaks: cloud-init (<< new_version), forcing cloud-init to upgrade before grub.
[23:11] <infinity> utlemming: I'm not sure having this leak into the grub packaging is really worth the hassle, but if you always want upgrades to work, I'm not sure there's a cleaner way.
[23:11] <utlemming> infinity: I _did_ start to go down that path, but had an issue with the fact that 'cloud-init-cfg grub-dpkg' runs debconf-set-selection, which runs into a debconf lock
[23:12] <infinity> utlemming: Oh, I guess you could re-run grub-install on cloud-init postinst in the same condition that you run cloud-init-cfg grub-dpkg
[23:12] <infinity> utlemming: There should only be a lock if you're running it in a part of your postinst that happens to be debconfy?
[23:13] <utlemming> infinity: the cloud-init postinst is debconf'd, yes
[23:13] <infinity> utlemming: Sure, but not the WHOLE postinst. :)
[23:13] <infinity> utlemming: If nothing else, there's some convenient imaginary whitespace before or after the bits that are.
[23:13] <utlemming> infinity: lol, okay, I'll look at doing that


[16:30] <tyhicks> hello
[16:30] <mdeslaur> \o
[16:30] <tyhicks> #startmeeting
[16:30] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 25 16:30:43 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:30] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:30] <tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
[16:30] <tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[16:31] <tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
[16:31] <tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
[16:33] <jdstrand> hi!
[16:33] <jdstrand> I'll continue to focus on snappy this week
[16:33] <jdstrand> various snappy interface PR reviews and followups
[16:33] <jdstrand> continue launcher cleanups
[16:33] <jdstrand> pulseaudio/trust-store on snappy discussions
[16:33] <jdstrand> chrome/firefox interfaces
[16:33] <jdstrand> abstract sockets PR
[16:34] <jdstrand> I think that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
[16:34] <mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
[16:34] <mdeslaur> hopefully I'll be working on overdue php updates
[16:34] <mdeslaur> I'm on patch piloting tomorrow too
[16:34] <mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie
[16:34] <sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week.
[16:35] <sbeattie> I have openjdk-8 updates from tdaitx to test and publish, and he's working on preparing openjdk-7 and 6 for me, not sure when they'll be ready yet.
[16:35] <sbeattie> I have some kernel signoffs to do
[16:36] <sbeattie> I am also still digging through the rebuild test looking for pie failures
[16:36] <sbeattie> That's probably it for me this week.
[16:36] <sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
[16:38] <tyhicks> I'm on community this week
[16:38] <tyhicks> I'm still catching up from email/irc while I was off last week
[16:39] <tyhicks> I was asked to merge apparmor from debian into yakkety
[16:39] <tyhicks> that works out nicely because I've finalized all of the other changes that I was working on for a yakkety apparmor upload
[16:40] <tyhicks> I'll be working on seccomp logging improvements for snappy
[16:40] <tyhicks> I revived and nearly finished off my old multiple apparmor policy caches branch last week while traveling
[16:41] <tyhicks> if I find some down time, I may wrap that up and send it out for review
[16:41] <tyhicks> that's it for me
[16:41] <tyhicks> jj isn't here now
[16:41] <tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
[16:41] <tyhicks> oh
[16:41] <tyhicks> I need to help out with reviews, if possible, so I'll be doing that instead of the finishing off the multiple apparmor policy caches feature
[16:42] <tyhicks> looks like sarnold isn't here now
[16:42] <tyhicks> chrisccoulson: you're up
[16:42] <jdstrand> tyhicks: does that mean that your merge will include the final systemd work?
[16:43] <tyhicks> jdstrand: doubt it
[16:43] <chrisccoulson> This week, I've got an Oxide release to publish. I've also got Firefox builds to prepare for next week's release
[16:43] <tyhicks> jdstrand: I still haven't looked at what is in the debian merge so I can't say for sure how far away we'll be
[16:43] <chrisccoulson> Firefox currently doesn't build on precise, so I need to investigate and fix that
[16:44] <jdstrand> I have a little bit to do for snappy to handle regenerating policy on new versions of apparmor, but it keeps getting deprioritized (which is why I was curious)
[16:44] <jdstrand> I'm not working on that this week so we won't collide, but thought I'd mention it in case we wanted to talk about something in this area
[16:44] <chrisccoulson> I plan to spend some time reviewing santosh's media decoding branch
[16:44] <tyhicks> jdstrand: thanks for mentioning that
[16:44] <chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working on Oxide bugs as usual
[16:44] <chrisccoulson> That's me done
[16:45] <tyhicks> chrisccoulson: how concerned are you about ff not building on precise?
[16:45] <chrisccoulson> tyhicks, not all that concerned
[16:45] <tyhicks> chrisccoulson: feeling like it is a relatively easy fix or are you looking at a lot of work for that?
[16:45] <tyhicks> ok, good
[16:46] <sarnold> tyhicks: sorry, here now
[16:47] <tyhicks> sarnold: hey - go ahead
[16:47] <sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week, and working down the list of reviews
[16:47] <sarnold> first up is barbican, I think
[16:47] <sarnold> that's it for me, tyhicks? :)
[16:47] <tyhicks> sarnold: yep, barbican is the first
[16:48] <tyhicks> thanks
[16:48] <tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
[16:48] <tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
[16:48] <tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
[16:48] <tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/k4dirstat.html
[16:48] <tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-muranoclient.html
[16:48] <tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/criu.html
[16:48] <tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
[16:48] <tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dropbear.html
[16:48] <tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
[16:48] <tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libxml-security-java.html
[16:49] <sarnold> criu is in universe?
[16:49] <sarnold> interesting.
[16:50] <tyhicks> I was slightly surprised by that, as well
[16:50] <tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
[16:50] <tyhicks> #endmeeting
[16:50] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jul 25 16:50:33 2016 UTC.
[16:50] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-07-25-16.30.moin.txt
[16:50] <mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
[16:50] <jdstrand> tyhicks: thank you! :)
[16:50] <sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
[16:51] <sarnold> thanks tyhicks


[02:14] <DKcross> hello people
[02:14] <DKcross> :)
[19:47] <dpic> who's here for the gaming team meeting?
[20:01] <dpic> who's here for the meeting?
[20:04] <doctormo> Hello, here for the gaming meeting
[20:04] <dpic> aha, thanks doctormo
[20:05] <doctormo> So what's on the agenda Mr Danny?
[20:06] <dpic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2009-09-27
[20:06] <dpic> doctormo: oh no, matt lee kept calling my mr. danny at the boston reddit meetup
[20:06] <dpic> and repeating my name over and over in a disapproving tone
[20:08] <dpic> anyways, problem areas for FOSS games, so far the two major ones are lack of  content development platform as good as the code development platforms that exist, as well as maintaining a good art direction that isn't led by a programmer who isn't an artist
[20:11] <DreadKnight> me too
[20:11] <doctormo> dpic: You have a number of options with art, 1) create druple type site to make content, specificly Creative Commons (no NC or ND allowed)
[20:11] <Moustafa> So, basically, if we get artists to lead the projects, a portion of the problem would be solved?
[20:12] <doctormo> 2) Use launchpad in some way, this might include coding new features into launchpad for doing more art/marketing/content type things.
[20:12] <dpic> doctormo: yes, we were already considering bot h those options
[20:12] <doctormo> 3) Pair up with an existing site such as deviantArt or some gaming content art site.
[20:12] <dpic> and now that our ideas are a little more  planned out here:
[20:12] <dpic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam/Projects/DistributedContentDevelopment
[20:12] <dpic> we wanted to revisit which should be the best option
[20:13] <dpic> Moustafa: yes
[20:13] <doctormo> You can't really solve the problem from the perspective of artists until you have a group of artists and modlers involved int he community you want to set up
[20:13] <DreadKnight> guys... what sort of games are you considering? A remake of tetris or something like "mass effect" ? :P
[20:13] <Moustafa> http://www.game-artist.net/forums/ should be a good place to find more artists
[20:13] <doctormo> dpic: I take it that you've read Jono Bacon's "The Art of the Community bitches"
[20:13] <doctormo> DreadKnight: This is more base line, any games that spring forth and any source resources that go into them.
[20:14] <Moustafa> Well, if you are looking for artists wanting to lead some projects, I'm one.  I've been planning on making a game using FOSS tools, and distribute it online, perhaps via the planned Canonical store
[20:14] <doctormo> DreadKnight: For instance, think of all the FOSS games int he repository where models, textures and graphics are not catalogued or sorted for re-use by other projects.
[20:14] <DreadKnight> I'm founder of Freezing Moon, a NPO developing 2 foss game projects www.FreezingMoon.org     http://www.blendernation.com/freezing-moon-open-games/
[20:14] <doctormo> Moustafa: It's not called "store" any more :-D
[20:14] <dpic> doctormo: i have not read that but looking it p-- there doesn't seem to be "bitches" in the title
[20:15] <Moustafa> Yeah, I read
[20:15] <Moustafa> But there are still plans for it
[20:15] <DreadKnight> using launchpad and "common art" for game projects is not the way to go if you actually wanna make quality stuff
[20:15] <doctormo> dpic: That's just me being funny
[20:15] <doctormo> dpic: But it's an excelent book for learning how to grow a community. A good starting point might be the blender gaming community
[20:16] <DreadKnight> www.gameblender.org and www.FreezingMoon.org (related to blender gaming communities)
[20:16] <Moustafa> I'll second DreadKnight here:  Each game has to make its own content.  To have some assets that could be used all around can help, though
[20:16] <dpic> doctormo: any suggestions as to how to coordinate something with them?
[20:16] <doctormo> dpic: Join any mailing lists or forums and work at it, see what kind of community it is and who would be interested in FOSS.
[20:17] <dpic> Moustafa: it's not just that artists are in short supply, but developers don't like stepping down and letting other people making art decisions
[20:18] <DreadKnight> games have their own graphic styles, polycounts budges... and so on, reusing content for another game is usually crap; but the good part of an open source project is that people would get access to files and eventually improve things (like optimizing a 3d model or tweaking it or adding animations to a 3d model)
[20:18] <doctormo> Moustafa: I expect all game projects will need to make a lot of artwork and content just for the feel of the game. But far too often we forget the ease of derivitive works. We can make a tree model into the moody tree for a different game in less time then making a tree model from scratch.
[20:18] <Moustafa> dpic: Wouldn't it then make more sense to have the artists start a project and find coders that are interested in bringing things to life?
[20:18] <dpic> DreadKnight: why would using launchpad be bad?
[20:18] <dpic> Moustafa: not a bad idea, but how could the gaming team coordinate that?
[20:19] <doctormo> dpic: launchpad, It's hard to code, hard to change and not set up at all for dealign with creative content development.
[20:19] <Moustafa> doctormo: Oh, things like trees, vehicles, or otherwise general objects (such as chairs) could be used from commons arts, that does make sense
[20:19] <DreadKnight> dpic, for game development, you need dropbox; launchpad is a joke for 3d games etc, only works for software such as empathy; when you tweak a model etc you don't need to have barriers and force the artists to commit patches, make branches and such using a CVS; dropbox is like sharing a folder with other people, way more practical and intuitive
[20:20] <DreadKnight> and if you're using launchpad, it's barely even usable if you're using blender and it's game engine, as most of the stuff happens in a single blend file, so you can't merge stuff in branches just like that
[20:20] <doctormo> DreadKnight: When did launchpad ever use CVS?
[20:20] <dpic> got it, so then what about the other websites listed? should we try helping them, or set u pa new site from scratch?
[20:20] <DreadKnight> bazaar = content versioning system
[20:20] <dpic> like opengameart.org
[20:20] <Moustafa> dpic: Do like the large companies and have a lead programmer that works in co-ordination with the director or lead artist to make sure things are going smoothly
[20:20] <doctormo> DreadKnight: Ah well, see I'm working on GUI launchpad/bzr intergration, but blender still wouldn't fit well enough for that.
[20:21] <dpic> Moustafa: yes, that's what projects can do, but what can this team do to make sure they do that? sent out a public letter asking all foss programmers to elect a lead artist?
[20:21] <DreadKnight> Moustafa, that's how I do it at freezing Moon... I'm the game design developer and 3d modeler... I make sure things follow the guidelines and so on; we have most of the documentation online for who wants to read about the workflow
[20:22] <DreadKnight> doctormo, something like ubuntu one would do, it's similar to dropbox, but the downside is that's only for ubuntu... so most people will be using windows and not be able to contribute...
[20:22] <dpic> doctormo: you worked on ubuntu one, right?
[20:23] <DreadKnight> dpic, don't bother; each struggling project leader will find it's way, just like turtles hatching on the beach making their way into the sea
[20:23] <dpic> do you think that has potential for being used as a platform?
[20:23] <doctormo> dpic: I did
[20:23] <dpic> DreadKnight: they're taking too long to do so =]
[20:24] <doctormo> DreadKnight: I'm not totally convinced that DropBox is the right kind of workflow anyway, you can't branch and you can't label or publish from there. It would be fairly course working with more than 20 people.
[20:24] <DreadKnight> dpic, it has, I guarantee; the downside is that you only get 2gb... while dropbox can reach up to 5gb for free.... and it's limited to ubuntu... and most artist you'll encouter will use windows/photoshop and won't be so eager about linux/gimp
[20:24] <DreadKnight> doctormo, you don't branch a blender game, you only branch empathy; games are complex/different things
[20:24] <dpic> DreadKnight: won't ubuntu one expand? or have paid storage?
[20:25] <doctormo> DreadKnight: One of the problems with artists creating content in Closed apps is closed source formats. It's important to have media sources available.
[20:25] <dpic> DreadKnight: and i'm pretty sure it'll be cross platform too
[20:25] <DreadKnight> dpic, of you're an indie developer, you won't afford paying for accounts for random people just to have them work, unless you're funded and such
[20:25] <dpic> ah, right
[20:26] <DreadKnight> doctormo, well, if the artists in your team do great concept artwork in photoshop and export as jpg/png and they don't charge you, it's all good
[20:26] <Moustafa> dpic:  If the project is started by a programmer, it might be best to actually encourage the election of a lead artist so that good art is made and avaiable.  Beyond that, getting some deadlines on goals each month could prompt the team to make sure their work is done.
[20:26] <DreadKnight> agree
[20:26] <doctormo> DreadKnight: Concept art and content art are not the same
[20:27] <doctormo> Although artists that save in jpeg need to be corrected, it's just a bad format for anything other than photographs.
[20:27] <DreadKnight> doctormo, of course; we're only using blender for the 3d assets/animations/game engine etc  ... that's really important; I reject 3d artists willing to help if they're not willing to learn blender, with help provided of course
[20:27] <DreadKnight> doctormo, it was just an example; for concept art and linearts its just fine
[20:28] <DreadKnight> the goal is to get the idea of a new creature and prop in order to pass it on to a 3d artist and get it modeled
[20:28] <DreadKnight> for game textures and icons etc, png, tiff, tga would do
[20:28] <doctormo> DreadKnight: For line arts it's much more lossy than anything else, tiff, png or bmp for lossless formats.
[20:29] <hyp3rfocus> hi
[20:29] <DreadKnight> doctormo, you don't need loseless for anything
[20:29] <Moustafa> I'd like to add that Blender is making it easier for the modeler to do the texture work as well, thanks to its painting tools.  It's not perfect, but it's a damned good start
[20:29] <doctormo> DreadKnight: You don't need lossy for anything
[20:29] <doctormo> Why loose things ever
[20:29] <DreadKnight> Moustafa, most people won't use the 3d painting tools for example, beacause they're too buggy and slow for now
[20:30] <DreadKnight> doctormo, look at our gallery... I often get 2000x2000 drawings... i resize them to 800x800 to save up space, because those drawings don't have the details in them to be worth 2000x2000. so jpg just does the job anyway
[20:30] <DreadKnight> saving space is a feature :P
[20:31] <Moustafa> DK: Good point.  I pretty much am getting to use them as I gain more experience with Blender, but I agree that they're not quite up in terms of performance when compared to software like ZBrush or Mudbox
[20:31] <hyp3rfocus> what's the discussion here?
[20:31] <DreadKnight> hyp3rfocus, free open source game development
[20:31] <doctormo> DreadKnight: What kind of workflow requires such restrictions? at least back the files up locally.
[20:31] <hyp3rfocus> cool
[20:31] <hyp3rfocus> what engines do you guys use?
[20:32] <DreadKnight> doctormo, yes, but the shared folders are limited to 2gb for most people... up to 5gb for those who have referals and such (for free)
[20:32] <doctormo> DreadKnight: A problem with your workflow model that uses dropbox, nothing more.
[20:32] <DreadKnight> hyp3rfocus, blender's game engine, no bottle necks in the pipeline... you make everything, even code using drag'n'drop (logic bricks) and you press a key and play ... and you even see the game in your 3d viewport as it will look while playing
[20:33] <dpic> DreadKnight: jumping back a bit, perhaps canonical would, similar to launchpad, allow extra storage on ubuntu one for FOSS games for free? and then a platform could be built around that
[20:33] <DreadKnight> doctormo, dropbox or not, some things are not worth huge resolution or bmp format :P
[20:33] <DreadKnight> dpic, that would be awesome, as long as they would rename that application and make it cross platform
[20:33] <hyp3rfocus> DreadKnight: i'm very interesting in the blender game engine. i've spent a lot of time messing around with quake3 and doom3, but i'm getting tired of getting stuff from blender to the games. game engine sounds a lot more fun.
[20:34] <Moustafa> DK: Usually, game engines require that you keep your assets in the power of two, and most of the time, even high-def gaming uses about 512x512 textures.  Beyond that can get overkill, but does make things prettier
[20:34] <DreadKnight> hyp3rfocus, totally, no more save/import/export crap or compilation of the code
[20:34] <hyp3rfocus> DreadKnight: is knowledge of python essential?
[20:34] <DreadKnight> Moustafa, if you have OpenGL 2.0 compatible video card, you don't need power of two crap anymore
[20:35] <DreadKnight> in BGE at least
[20:35] <doctormo> DreadKnight: You can't know when a work will be vectorised or used in some future unknown way, I've found it's best to always at least keep backups of large res files.
[20:35] <DreadKnight> doctormo, stop finding hypothetical cases :D be more practical
[20:35] <doctormo> DreadKnight: BTW, what required renaming?
[20:35] <dpic> i think we're getting a little side tracked =]
[20:35] <doctormo> dpic: your the meeting chair
[20:36] <dpic> alright so, starting with the development platform
[20:36] <DreadKnight> doctormo, "ubuntu one"... if you make it cross platform or even use that in other linux distros, it doesn't makes sense.... it's as arrogant or confusing like "gnome-do"
[20:36] <dpic> has everybody looked at the page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam/Projects/DistributedContentDevelopment ?
[20:36] <doctormo> DreadKnight: Stop finding emotive cases :D be more practical
[20:37] <DreadKnight> :D
[20:37] <DreadKnight> I am practical, I'm a game developer :P
[20:37] <doctormo> I'm a busybody
[20:38] <Moustafa> dpic: I'm looking at it.  Unfortunately, family business came up and I have to leave for now, should be back in 30 minutes, but I'll keep this window up
[20:38] <dpic> what would be the most suitable platform for our needs? are we agreed on ubuntu one or some similar and possible future version of it?
[20:38] <DreadKnight> "3D artist love to have lost...." should be lots*
[20:39] <DreadKnight> dpic, agree, if crossplatform and providing more space
[20:39] <dpic> alright, perhaps we can get in touch with canonical
[20:39] <doctormo> Lots of space, very fast space, making sure everything is propperly copyleft (not NC or ND) and making sure sources are available in open formats. <- my advice.
[20:39] <hyp3rfocus> also, shouldn't that be "3D artists"
[20:39] <doctormo> Now I must go
[20:39] <doctormo> good luck dpic
[20:39] <dpic> does it seem *possible* for ubuntu one to to support the features we outlined?
[20:39] <DreadKnight> hyp3rfocus, lol... right xD
[20:39] <dpic> thanks doctormo
[20:40] <DreadKnight> people come and go :D
[20:40] <DreadKnight> that's why it's very hard to make a 'real' game as an indie dev
[20:40] <DreadKnight> not to mention most people barely have any skills suitable for your project
[20:41] <dpic> as far as contacting canonical goes, how can we make a real business case for them?
[20:41] <dpic> how do we get them to listen to us?
[20:41] <dpic> and is there still possibility of partnering with the blender foundation if we go with ubuntu one?
[20:42] <DreadKnight> dpic, well, I was considering emailing canonical at some point in order to make a partnership; My life is sort of on the line regarding FreezingMoon as I even quit my job and im working full time on the projects... I have lots of experience in the field and I wanna do high-quality stuff
[20:43] <dpic> cool, what kind of partnership were you emailing about?
[20:43] <DreadKnight> Ton Rosendal or Nathan Letwory use Mac os x and Windows, without any direct interest in using something only ment for ubuntu...
[20:43] <dpic> right, but of course nothign is possible until ubuntu one goes cross platform
[20:44] <DreadKnight> I was thinking of montly fonds ($) and 'link exchange'; You see all the cool games have a windows logo on them, "product developed for windows"... I think Ubuntu would use some games with that kind of stuff on the box etc as well
[20:44] <DreadKnight> otherwise people won't take Linux seriously with preinstalled chess games and only open arena
[20:45] <DreadKnight> most foss games are multiplayer/online, no singleplayer or storyline
[20:45] <DreadKnight> some have singleplayer, but we're not in the 80's anymore.....
[20:47] <DreadKnight> and I think CC NC should be allowed; artists are usually scared to make drawings everybody can use, I can assure you that; and commercial usage will just allow 3rd parties to make moneis without even contributing/sponsoring the devs, not cool... as games are very demanding projects
[20:47] <dpic> hm, well do you think you could help with contacting them about this development platform too?
[20:47] <dpic> it's not a foss license so we can't
[20:47] <dpic> developers used to be just as afraid
[20:48] <DreadKnight> well, as far as I know, Launchpad even allows copyrighted projects in certain cases
[20:48] <dpic> and not ture if they use SA
[20:48] <DreadKnight> don't confuse coders with artists;
[20:48] <dpic> yeah, with a commercial license
[20:48] <DreadKnight> artists have a very different mentality... they put a part of their souls in every drawings and care about them
[20:48] <DreadKnight> drawing*
[20:49] <hyp3rfocus> and coders don't?
[20:49] <dpic> yeah...
[20:49] <DreadKnight> code is a different thing; it's easier to be made in collaboration or to branch
[20:49] <dpic> but the point is NC is not foss
[20:49] <DreadKnight> Consider it how you want, but I'm letting you know the real-case scenario :)
[20:49] <dpic> perhaps the mindset is a bit different
[20:50] <dpic> but NC is incompatible with FOSS
[20:50] <dpic> hopefully that mindset can change
[20:50] <hyp3rfocus> i'd like to see 3d modelling done in collaboration in the same way as code.
[20:50] <DreadKnight> most of the artists I managed to get into my projects don't know about foss... and copyright their works and use huge watermarks :D but I couldn't do without them
[20:50] <hyp3rfocus> easy to do with text based model formats
[20:51] <dpic> hyp3rfocus: that's why we want this new development platform =]
[20:51] <hyp3rfocus> oh cool
[20:51] <DreadKnight> I wouldn't be working on games giving everything for free, as Canonical thinks of the $ as well (consider tech support, ubuntu one etc); I invest a lot of time to not get anything? Wouldn't be fair to allow a 3rd party to make money off my back;
[20:51] <hyp3rfocus> it would also work with svg based art
[20:52] <dpic> DreadKnight: shareAlike clause.
[20:52] <DreadKnight> There are cross platform or free games nowadays, but they're closed source; Leagueoflegends.com heroesofnewerth.com (this one is cross platform), the CC NC allows for people to share/learn/contribute, so I think it's a good enough case
[20:53] <hyp3rfocus> there are gpl cross platform games too
[20:53] <dpic> the problem is that it's incompatible with FOSS
[20:53] <hyp3rfocus> nexuiz, openarena
[20:54] <hyp3rfocus> the xreal engine is gpl too, but it's media isn't
[20:54] <DreadKnight> nexuiz and openarena are cool games, but as I said, we're not in the 80's anymore; openarena is based on quake 3 engine, which was closed and made lots of money... it got old and they released it... but times moved on....
[20:55] <hyp3rfocus> xreal is worth checking out
[20:55] <hyp3rfocus> modern graphics, skeletal animation
[20:55] <dpic> how about we start by contacting canoincal. DreadKnight, were you just going to shoot them an email? Do oyu know how would be best to reach them?
[20:55] <hyp3rfocus> apparently the graphics are better than doom3
[20:55] <dpic> and is collaboration with the blender foundation still possible
[20:56] <DreadKnight> dpic, perhaps emailing Mark Shuttleworth; I am planing to email them this year... want to have a community again when Google Wave will be released and to have a demo (an early alpha) for at least one of the 2 projects
[20:57] <dpic> alright
[20:58] <dpic> and how about encouraging games to elect a lead artist, how can we best do that?
[20:58] <DreadKnight> dpic, blender foundation doesn't usually gets involved with 3rd party stuff, but they're interested how other people use blender and they're looking forward to hear feedback on how could blender be improved and such; maybe at some point I'll get their attention and have "development sprints" for the FM projects and they're hearquarters in Amsterdam
[20:58] <dpic> DreadKnight: considering the open more and game projects, i think this could benefit them too
[20:59] <DreadKnight> dpic, I usually pay my concept artist from time to time, and looking forward to pay other devs as well... next year I want to have the core-team of Freezing Moon to be rewarded financially and work part time at least; about 20 people; pretty much like blender foundation does each year, having a payed team + contribution/feedback from the community
[20:59] <DreadKnight> lead concept artist*
[21:00] <DreadKnight> I think huge art or gamedevelopment related communities should try to involve people into open source game/movie projects, rather than just random weekly/monthly challenges
[21:01] <dpic> hm, what challenges are oyu referring to?
[21:01] <dpic> and is there anything in that this team can do to encourage games lacking a lead concept artist to elect one?
[21:01] <DreadKnight> because getting things together into an animation or demo is more challenging for people and the end result is more interesting rather than random creatures for portfolio showcase
[21:03] <DreadKnight> dpic, not sure what to say about that... it's a low of 'triall' to find people as an indie developer and *really* get things going in the right direction
[21:03] <DreadKnight> the people need to be serious about it, they need to get along fine and so on
[21:04] <dpic> yeah
[21:04] <dpic> are there any other areas besides those two that are such a significant barrier to FOSS game adoption?
[21:05] <DreadKnight> so trying to assume the role of a 'match-maker' is similar to making a website for 'selling' brides to say so
[21:06] <dpic> haha
[21:06] <DreadKnight> moneis are a key factor :D I think like it was discussed about Ubuntu/Linux to have some sort of payed jobs, like people raising money in order to pay a developer to implement a feature or fix some bugs.... I think the commercial aspect of a game should be considered as well
[21:06] <dpic> it should
[21:06] <DreadKnight> It would be interesting to have some foss related website to showcase projects to possible investors
[21:07] <dpic> but that something that has to be take on a per-project basis
[21:07] <DreadKnight> of course
[21:07] <dpic> hm, does nothing like that exist?
[21:07] <DreadKnight> there are websites showcasing 'lame' foss projects, but there isn't one as far as I know to only showcase the most promissing/demanding projects
[21:08] <DreadKnight> Don't get me wrong, I love foss games, but for a real gamer, they're just crap to say so, that's why you see "does it run crysis?" on digg when it comes to linux related articles and such
[21:09] <DreadKnight> even if a projects is foss, there's a huge difference between a successful project and one just started for the sake of doing something
[21:09] <dpic> yeah i know
[21:10] <dpic> well, maybe we should start a FOSS gaming website from scratch for this purpose
[21:10] <dpic> it could double as the development platform if we got enough support
[21:10] <DreadKnight> so I really want to get things to a new level and solve part of the "linux is not for games" issue, since I'm all into this foss thing; therefor I even need to consider the commercial-like aspects :)
[21:11] <DreadKnight> there are a few foss gaming website; the thing is to get involved in helping a certain project to be able to 'match' a commercial quality like game
[21:12] <DreadKnight> as much as possible; most games have huge budgets and lots of people working full time in a studio
[21:13] <DreadKnight> even the free games I listed earlier, have that kind of stuff, but they also consider making $ using all sorts of strategies, like in-game shops, e-shop selling items and so on
[21:13] <dpic> yeah
[21:16] <dpic> alright well there aren't enough people here for the next two agenda items so we can hold off until next month
[21:16] <dpic> or should the next meeting be in two months again?
[21:17] <DreadKnight> the agenda items are... ?
[21:17] <dpic> priorituze projects and assign jobs
[21:18] <DreadKnight> Im guessing some people only read now or later...
[21:18] <dpic> huh?
[21:18] <DreadKnight> maybe even having a log online would help
[21:18] <dpic> #ubuntu-meeting is logged
[21:18] <DreadKnight> 154 peeps here, quite a lot :)
[21:18] <DreadKnight> good
[21:18] <dpic> well participating, people =]
[21:18] <DreadKnight> well, it's up for you to decide :D
[21:19] <dpic> hm, well what do we have to do in the meantime? contact canonical...write up a blog post, summarize the meeting logs, anything else?
[21:19] <dpic> sounds doable in one month
[21:20] <DreadKnight> I might even join the ubuntu/gnome/kde planets and start blogging more often about foss game development / usability and graphic design using foss
[21:20] <DreadKnight> I keep up to date with everything related..
[21:20] <dpic> that would be awesome!
[21:20] <dpic> are you an ubuntu member?
[21:21] <DreadKnight> hmm, guess not; I have wiki account and a page..
[21:21] <dpic> you need to become an approved member
[21:21] <dpic> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
[21:21] <DreadKnight> seems I need to do some more stuff as I got rejected earlier on launchpad when joining kubuntu-members :D
[21:21] <dpic> =]
[21:22] <dpic> any final thoughts?
[21:22] <DreadKnight> I see; guess I'll start translating again soon and do some artwork/mockups
[21:23] <dpic> excellent =]
[21:23] <DreadKnight> all good with me; only that people shouldn't confuse an application with a real game; so branching is usually out of the way
[21:24] <dpic> alright, this meeting is hereby concluded
[21:24] <dpic> thank's to everyone who showed up!
[21:24] <dpic> thanks*
[21:24] <DreadKnight> \o/
[21:24] <DreadKnight> cheers!