[06:55] <rogpeppe> fwereade: morning guv'nor
[07:15] <fwereade> heya rogpeppe
[07:16] <rogpeppe> fwereade: looks like my upgrader proposal was premature. still, it all works; i can drag it out later :-)
[07:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I think it's a viable long-term direction but maybe not time for it yet
[09:42] <fwereade> popping out for a mo, bbs
[10:19] <Aram> morning
[10:22] <rogpeppe> Aram: hiya
[10:23] <fwereade> Aram, heyhey
[10:28] <TheMue> Aram: Moin.
[11:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, TheMue: I would very much appreciate your thoughts on https://codereview.appspot.com/6304068
[11:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, TheMue: everything important is in the description, the code should be a really quick skim/verify if you agree with the problem statement
[11:28]  * rogpeppe looks
[11:32] <rogpeppe> fwereade: in exchange, a few minor cleanups in the same file: https://codereview.appspot.com/6295069/
[11:33] <fwereade> rogpeppe, LGTM
[11:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'd call that a trivial, just merge it
[11:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that would certainly make our lives easier w.r.t. your branch
[11:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I think it'd be justified even if that weren't the case ;)
[11:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, does the logic seem sound to you?
[11:38] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it's really just about making sure everything happens on the loop goroutine
[11:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think so. am still absorbing.
[11:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: small thing. i wonder if instead of having those closures all down the code, something like this might read a little better: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1037042/
[11:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I don't think we want to defer a Stop, which is what that effectively seems to do
[11:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we want to be sure that that code is called OAOO
[11:44] <rogpeppe> fwereade: OAOO?
[11:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, Once And Only Once
[11:44] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think that code is exactly equivalent to yours, no?
[11:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe, can you paste an example implementation of the Stop method?
[11:45] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's already implemented by all the sub-watchers
[11:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok, then our code is definitely not doing the same thing
[11:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: really?
[11:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yours will wait until the tomb is dead, on the main goroutine, before the main goroutine calls tomb.Done()
[11:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, assuming the implementations stay as they are
[11:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, my approach ensures the cleanup code is called OAOO after the main loop has exited
[11:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i must be missing something. AFAICS they're trivially identical.
[11:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the problem is in allowing any cleanup code to run on an arbitrary goroutine -- the only stuff that's safe is Kill() and Wait()
[11:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, all the Stop implementations return tomb.Wait()
[11:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: your deferred closure does exactly the same thing as my three deferred function calls, no?
[11:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, if they don;t do that then clients won;t be able to extract an error (unless we add a Wait method to each watcher)
[11:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but if they do use tomb.Wait(), then it's certainly not OK to call them on the loop goroutine, because that's the goroutine that is meant to signal that cleanup is complete in the first place
[11:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i don't understand. i think both piece of code are trivially (potentially even by the compiler) transformable into each other.
[11:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, stop me when I say something incorrect:
[11:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the Stop methods do the following: tomb.Kill(nil), stop the watcher, and wait on tomb completion before returning
[11:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: here are the steps of the transformation: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1037058/
[11:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: your code is calling Stop too
[11:53] <fwereade> rogpeppe, oh really?
[11:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: e.g. line 51
[11:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, oh balls I totally misread it
[11:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: np
[11:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, missed a .watcher
[11:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: thought so
[11:55] <rogpeppe> maybe stopWatcher could be stopSubwatcher
[11:56] <fwereade> rogpeppe, nah, I think it'd be clear anyway
[11:57] <fwereade> rogpeppe, still trying to figure out whether it feels like a clear improvement... I'll implement it and see how I feel ;p
[11:57] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, i'm not sure either.
[11:58] <fwereade> rogpeppe, my crystal ball tells me that I will use it again soon, so on that basis I think it's worth it
[11:58] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it was just a reaction to seeing the same closure in all of them
[11:58] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm already about to use it
[11:58] <rogpeppe> fwereade: possible comment on stopWatcher:
[11:58] <rogpeppe> // stopWatcher stops a watcher and propagates
[11:58] <rogpeppe> // the error to the given tomb if nessary.
[11:58] <rogpeppe> f
[11:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe, perfect
[11:59]  * rogpeppe likes ad hoc interfaces
[11:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe,  how should i integrate that if you're implementing it right now?
[11:59] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not implementing that. i'm implementing MachineUnitsWatcher
[12:00] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and i'll merge it with your changes before submitting it
[12:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, excellent
[12:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cheers
[12:00] <rogpeppe> fwereade: np. thanks for cleaning this up.
[12:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, a pleasure :)
[12:06] <TheMue> Just jumped in from lunch. Together with the watchStopper/stopWatcher() both times LGTM, looks good.
[12:10] <fwereade> TheMue, thnks
[12:12] <rogpeppe> fwereade: submitted. i feel a little bit naughty.
[12:13] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I think that one is absolutely legitimate :)
[12:17] <TheMue> rogpeppe: *lol*
[12:27] <hazmat> rogpeppe, what's the support like for bzr revisions of tools?
[12:27] <hazmat> rogpeppe, does that lead major.minor.patch-revno  form?
[12:27] <rogpeppe> hazmat: the plan is to use major.minor.patch
[12:28] <rogpeppe> hazmat: but you get a local repo that you can push stuff to
[12:29] <rogpeppe> hazmat: so you build the binaries locally and push them to the storage for a given juju environment. then it'll use them.
[12:30] <rogpeppe> hazmat: does that answer your question?
[12:31] <hazmat> rogpeppe, indeed it does.. but it seems a bit manual for dev cycling on an env, it sounds like its effectively using the releases url as a namespace for priv dev via  local release repo
[12:31] <hazmat> but that's pretty minor given the simplicity
[12:32] <rogpeppe> hazmat: there's an flag to bootstrap which causes it to automatically build and upload the binaries before bootstrapping
[12:32] <hazmat> rogpeppe, upload the binaries to the env or to the release url?
[12:32] <hazmat> s/env/provider storage
[12:33] <rogpeppe> hazmat: to the env. there's no fixed release url - it's environment-configurable.
[12:33] <hazmat> rogpeppe, sure its configurable, but there not comparable without a release url per se
[12:33] <hazmat> s/their
[12:34] <hazmat> rogpeppe, so without that flag it would default to using the release url ?
[12:34] <rogpeppe> they're? :-)
[12:35] <rogpeppe> hazmat: currently there's no default. there's a "public-bucket" field in the ec2 config which would to the s3 bucket containing the public release
[12:35] <rogpeppe> s/would to/would point to/
[12:37] <rogpeppe> hazmat: i'd guess that when we provide one, we'll change the default to point to it
[12:37] <hazmat> rogpeppe, how are you determining the version when you upload tools on bootstrap?
[12:38] <rogpeppe> hazmat: it's taken from Current in the version package.
[12:39] <rogpeppe> hazmat: but the version is actually irrelevant for bootstrap because the logic will always choose a version from the private storage by preference, and the private storage starts empty.
[12:41] <hazmat> rogpeppe, ic, won't the priv storage will start populated though with the tools uploaded by bootstrap, ie has the one to be used
[12:42] <rogpeppe> hazmat: destroy-environment deletes everything from the private storage, including uploaded tools.
[12:43] <rogpeppe> hazmat: (if i've parsed your sentence correctly)
[12:43] <hazmat> rogpeppe, sure.. i was referencing bootstrap --tools would upload the current toolset to provider storage before the machine came up, so it would be using the only extant version there
[12:44] <rogpeppe> hazmat: that's right.
[12:45] <rogpeppe> hazmat: i think the flag is "--upload-tools"
[12:52] <rogpeppe> hazmat: "why not support both? ie. machine monitoring global version and local version setting."
[12:52] <rogpeppe> hazmat: would the local version setting be optional?
[12:52] <niemeyer> Gooood morning jujuers
[12:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yo!
[12:56] <TheMue> niemeyer: Moin
[13:26] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: any thoughts on https://codereview.appspot.com/6307072/ ?
[13:27]  * niemeyer looks
[13:38] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: LGTM
[13:38] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: lovely, thanks.
[13:38] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: np, thank you
[13:41] <hazmat> rogpeppe, yes
[13:41] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: this could also use a look, while you're here: https://codereview.appspot.com/6305063/
[13:42] <hazmat> rogpeppe, you could effect a global change via one node change, a local change via one node change. no mass changes nesc.
[13:43] <rogpeppe> hazmat: it means each machine agent would need to watch two things, but it would probably work ok, yeah.
[13:45] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Done
[13:46] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ta
[13:48] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'd prefer to have the set(upgrade=true) operation being extremely fast..
[13:48] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Enough for us to not worry about updating several entries at once
[13:49] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: could be thousands if we've got that number of machines
[13:49] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Updating thousands of values in a database is extremely fast these days
[13:50] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: each one incurs a round trip. but i'll do them concurrently, which should amleliorate that.
[13:50] <rogpeppe> s/aml/am/
[13:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You'r assuming an implementation :)
[13:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I hope we can fix that
[13:51] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: depends on the interface in State, i think.
[13:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Well, if it's so painful, let's get started with global only
[13:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i don't think it's painful. i'm just wary of it...
[13:52] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We're not making use of the fact it's per unit right now either way
[13:52] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Ok, global only is cool for now then
[13:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i think it'll be relatively easy to add local machine versions later if we decide to
[13:53] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Okay, sounds good.. sorry for diverting your efforts
[13:53] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: np.
[13:53] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I hope by the time we want to have it local, the backend is fast enough for us not to worry about this
[13:53] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: BTW the upgrader implementation works, and is stashed away for future reference :-)
[13:53] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: collection.update(upgrade=true) is a blast
[14:24] <fwereade> niemeyer, are you currently reviewing convenient-relation-interface or add-unit-relation? if so, sorry: I'm about to -wip them, I think I have a better arrangement
[14:24] <TheMue> niemeyer: In https://codereview.appspot.com/6296064 I concentrated on state.go.
[14:25] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'm not.. just reviewing mails before stepping out for lunch.. there's still time
[14:25] <niemeyer> fwereade: thanks for the note
[14:25] <fwereade> niemeyer, nah, you don't need to look at those for a bit; I should make the s/UnitRelation/RelationUnit/ change at least
[14:26] <fwereade> niemeyer, and they may change in more interesting ways
[14:26] <niemeyer> fwereade: Does that make sense?  It felt right yesterday, but I wasn't entirely sure
[14:27] <fwereade> niemeyer, I *think* it does, but I'm still exploring
[14:27] <fwereade> niemeyer, if it turns out to be crack I can just repropose the original branches
[14:33] <niemeyer> fwereade: I think the convention also makes sense for that tiny type we recently introduced: ServiceRelation => RelationService
[14:33] <niemeyer> fwereade: I recall struggling with the same kind of issue thre
[14:33] <niemeyer> there
[14:34] <niemeyer> fwereade: We did reword the docs a bit to make it clear, but didn't realize the ordering made a difference at the time
[14:34] <fwereade> niemeyer, yeah, that is definitely on the cards
[14:41] <niemeyer> TheMue: Will have to think about this one some more..
[14:41] <niemeyer> TheMue: The repetition of logic there obviously needs some love.. still thinking about what would be the best approach
[14:42] <TheMue> niemeyer: Yes, I dislike it too and played with the idea of nesting it more. But that's also not "beautiful".
[14:43] <TheMue> niemeyer: The early return is typical for Go, but it looks strange.
[14:44] <TheMue> niemeyer: Having individual error types getting maybe a specifier, like a name, and the included error would make it look better. But logic would be the same, code would be more.
[14:44] <niemeyer> TheMue: I don't think that's an issue.. there are multiple ways to preserve that
[14:44] <niemeyer> TheMue: I'm just pondering about the best one
[14:47] <TheMue> niemeyer: We very often use value, err := ... and need the value later. This often leads to the structure.
[14:48] <niemeyer> TheMue: I understand, but the structure is fine
[14:48] <niemeyer> TheMue: We can avoid the repetition without touching it
[14:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ping
[14:48] <niemeyer> TheMue: For example:
[14:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, pong
[14:48] <niemeyer> defer errorContext(&err, "can't add service %q: %v", name)
[14:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: "cannot assign subordinate units directly to machines"
[14:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yes
[14:49] <rogpeppe> fwereade: how *do* we assign a subordinate unit to a machine?
[14:49] <TheMue> niemeyer: Hehe, thought about this too.
[14:49] <niemeyer> TheMue: >:)
[14:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we assign it to a unit, surely?
[14:49] <rogpeppe> fwereade: using AssignToMachine?
[14:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe, no, certainly not
[14:50] <rogpeppe> fwereade: so... how then?
[14:50] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we AddUnitSubordinateTo()
[14:50] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Subordinate units must necessarily be in the same machine of their principal
[14:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'm not sure where the responsibility lies in python for handling that though
[14:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ah, so subordinate units don't have a Machine set in their topology node?
[14:51] <TheMue> niemeyer: And err is a named return value. In case it's nil when the message returns errorContext() will let it stay nil, otherwise it will "pimp" the error.
[14:51] <niemeyer> TheMue: Yep
[14:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that means my just-submitted Machine.Units implementation is wrong
[14:52] <TheMue> niemeyer: OK, will add it.
[14:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sorry, not sure I saw that one; how so?
[14:52] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Ah, curious
[14:52] <niemeyer> rogpeppe, fwereade: Worth looking at both ends in that regard.. I certainly didn't pay attention to that myself
[14:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you LGTM'd it...
[14:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's wrong because it doesn't return subordinate units
[14:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i assumed that all units on a machine had Machine=that-machine
[14:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but if that's not true for subordinates, i'll have to do some more delving
[14:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i *think* that it would be good if the unit machine was set in the topology regardless of whether it's subordinate or not.
[14:55] <fwereade> rogpeppe, no doubt it will click the second I see it, but I can't parse its location out of my emails... CL please?
[14:55] <rogpeppe> fwereade: https://codereview.appspot.com/6307072
[14:55] <fwereade> rogpeppe, there is probably a case to be made for that though
[14:55]  * fwereade reads and thinks
[14:56] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that would mean, i think, that AddUnitSubordinateTo would automatically assign the subordinate unit to the principal's machine if there is one, and that AssignToMachine would also assign any subordinate units to that machine.
[14:56] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I find that sensible too
[14:57] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Although.. hmm
[14:57] <niemeyer> Yeah, no, that sounds good indeed
[14:58] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok, sounds like a plan.
[14:58] <fwereade> rogpeppe, niemeyer: the difficulty is kinda in thinking of Units as meaning Containers
[14:58] <niemeyer> We have evidence of algorithms being written incorrectly based on lack of a sound assumption
[14:58] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, but they're not really
[14:58] <fwereade> niemeyer, indeed so
[14:58] <niemeyer> fwereade: The fact we're having to think this way is a hint rogpeppe is right
[14:58] <fwereade> niemeyer, agree Units should actually be all units, not all principal units
[14:58] <rogpeppe> fwereade: +1
[14:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe, nice catch, ty
[14:59] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok, i'll submit that as a fix first, before submitting machine-units-watcher
[15:00] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it was your catch - you wrote the error message that stopped my test running!
[15:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ah, I missed that detail
[15:00]  * fwereade feels smug
[15:00] <rogpeppe>  "cannot assign subordinate units directly to machines"
[15:00] <rogpeppe> ... and rightly so :-)
[15:28] <niemeyer> I'll head to lunch.. may take a bit more time today as it's Valentines here so we'll go to a proper place to have lunch. Back soon for more fun.
[15:35] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: have a good one!
[15:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i think that topology.AddUnit should fail if the principal unit no longer exists. does that sound right to you?
[15:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, that sounds correct
[15:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok, i'll fix that
[15:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: thanks
[15:38] <fwereade> anyone:
[15:38] <fwereade> Rietveld: https://codereview.appspot.com/6300085
[15:38] <fwereade> error: Failed to run "bzr merge": exit status 3
[15:38] <fwereade> -----
[15:38] <fwereade> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(chroot-80383440:///%2Bbranch/juju-core/.bzr/branch/lock): Transport operation not possible: readonly transport
[15:38] <fwereade> -----
[15:38] <fwereade> ?
[15:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: does it happen repeatedly?
[15:38] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah
[15:39] <rogpeppe> fwereade:  running lbox submit?
[15:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe, indeed so
[15:40] <rogpeppe> fwereade: what does the output of lbox submit -v look like? (i'm wondering if it's something to do with lp:juju-core vs lp:juju-core/juju)
[15:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1037422/ seems to be the relevant bit
[15:45] <rogpeppe> fwereade: hmm, odd. let's see the whole thing. i doubt i can help though, i'm afraid.
[15:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1037428/
[15:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but wait, yes, I see a bare lp:juju/core in there
[15:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, lp:juju-core
[15:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that might be your problem. you might want to delete the merge proposal and try again, with an explict --for lp:juju-core/juju
[15:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sounds good, thanks
[15:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: if in doubt, reinstall Windows.
[15:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, looks like I'll be reinstalling windows :/
[15:52] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that didn't help then
[15:53] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'll try with a new branch from juju-core/juju and merge the original branch into that, see if it helps
[16:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, bah, doesn't even work when I do that
[16:02] <rogpeppe>  fwereade: darn. i'd start googling for "bzr readonly transport" and maybe have a delve into the source.
[16:02] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ... and thereby waste the rest of the day
[16:02] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I'm going to do the stuff that's currently right on my mind and figure that out a bit later
[16:03] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, and niemeyer may be back by then
[17:07] <TheMue> rogpeppe: I understand your concerns that just adding a prefix string with a "nice description" of the method name doesn't add much new context informations.
[17:08] <TheMue> rogpeppe: But having a chain of those calls may the error string contain more and more information (a kind of error stack).
[17:08] <rogpeppe> TheMue: that's going to happen either way, AFAICS.
[17:09] <TheMue> rogpeppe: It's only bad analyzable.
[17:09] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i can't parse that
[17:09] <TheMue> rogpeppe: So a kind of struct {msg, err} would maybe help more.
[17:10] <rogpeppe> TheMue: what i'm saying is orthogonal to analysability
[17:10] <rogpeppe> TheMue, fwereade: subordinate units machine assignment. https://codereview.appspot.com/6299073
[17:11] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ^
[17:12] <TheMue> rogpeppe: How would your solution look like?
[17:12] <niemeyer> Yo
[17:12] <rogpeppe> TheMue: my message described the error messages i'd use in that function
[17:13] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yi
[17:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You have question from bcsaller there
[17:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah, i'm just looking at it
[17:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i *think* we'd decided that the MA *was* responsible for all unit deployments.
[17:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: That's not what we agreed to, no
[17:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ok, i must've misunderstood
[17:17] <bcsaller> rogpeppe: thats hard to pull off anyway, supose the container is LXC, you don't have easy access to its internals from the MA, only from the UA inside that container
[17:17] <rogpeppe> bcsaller: very true. hmm.
[17:18] <bcsaller> there are ways around that, but its tricky and I didn't think it was worth it
[17:19] <bcsaller> rogpeppe: that said understanding the timing issue where the subs are added to late for that call to matter is also important
[17:20] <TheMue> niemeyer: The defer/error interface message sadly doesn't work, you can't set a new err in that method.
[17:20] <rogpeppe> bcsaller: i'm not quite sure what you mean by "too late for that call to matter". matter to what?
[17:20] <bcsaller> to make any change
[17:21] <bcsaller> the principal is deployed and assigned, then a day later they add a monitoring subordinate
[17:21] <TheMue> niemeyer: I've got a somewhat scruffy idea using an own helper error type.
[17:21] <bcsaller> if I read it properly the principal was suppose to tag its sub
[17:21] <bcsaller> with the machine id, but that won't happen
[17:22] <bcsaller> rogpeppe: ^
[17:22] <TheMue> niemeyer: But it's indeed not beautiful.
[17:22] <Aram> did the email I sent to juju-dev went through?
[17:22] <rogpeppe> bcsaller: i don't see why not. if the principal is assigned, the subsid will be assigned when it's added
[17:23] <rogpeppe> bcsaller: but there is a bigger issue here. perhaps Machine.Units should not return subsidiary units, as the MA doesn't care about them.
[17:23] <rogpeppe> bcsaller: in which case all that branch is crack
[17:24] <bcsaller> rogpeppe: agreed, it should not, its not the thing managing them
[17:31] <niemeyer> TheMue: Yes, you actually can set an error in that method
[17:31] <niemeyer> s/method/function/
[17:31] <rogpeppe> Aram: i haven't seen anything
[17:32] <rogpeppe> Aram: if you're referring to a message you've sent just recently
[17:32] <rogpeppe> [18:16:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i *think* we'd decided that the MA *was* responsible for all unit deployments.
[17:32] <Aram> rogpeppe: yes, I got a moderator approval needed bounce.
[17:32] <rogpeppe> oh yeah, we'd actually agreed the precise opposites
[17:32] <rogpeppe> opposite
[17:34] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so it looks like that branch is rubbish - Machine.Units shouldn't return subsidiary units; do you agree? then we can have a Unit.WatchSubsidiaries method later that the unit agent can use, perhaps.
[17:34] <rogpeppe> Aram: did you send it from your canonical.com address?
[17:35] <Aram> yes, but I used my alias instead of my real email, gah, resending.
[17:35] <TheMue> niemeyer: err can be set, then it's passed as reference to the deferred errorContext(). There err (which is *error) can be set, but when returning the old err is still valid. If err would be e.g. a structure I could modify a field, yes, or a slice value or map.
[17:36] <Aram> rogpeppe: this time it worked
[17:37] <TheMue> niemeyer: Deferring a func() {} and modify err in there through errorContext() with a return value should help. Wouldn't be so elegant. But less repeating than today.
[17:37] <niemeyer> TheMue: Sorry, I'm missing what you mean
[17:38] <niemeyer> TheMue: The exact signature I suggested should work, without any further hacks
[17:38] <niemeyer> TheMue: Why is it not working?
[17:39] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Subordinates
[17:39] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Why is it rubbish?
[17:40] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: because there's no need for the machine agent to see subordinate units. and that's what Machine.Units and Machine.UnitsWatcher is for.
[17:40] <TheMue> niemeyer: You pass an interface X by reference. You could call the interfaces methods or if it would be a struct you could modify the fields. But if you set the argument the scope is only inside the function.
[17:42] <TheMue> niemeyer: errorContext(err *error) { err = fmt.Errorf("foo") } runs (ok, you need a temp variable to create a reference), but after the call of errorContext(&e) that e stays the same.
[17:43] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i've got to go, i'm afraid. i'll leave the branch out for review, but i'm pretty sure now that it's a wrong direction.
[17:45] <niemeyer> TheMue: Your implementation seems to be bogus somehow
[17:45] <niemeyer> TheMue: Can you please replicate your idea here: http://play.golang.org/
[17:45] <TheMue> niemeyer: A defer func() { err = errorContext(err, "Foo %q", id) } would help.
[17:45] <TheMue> niemeyer: For sure.
[17:45] <niemeyer> TheMue: Thanks
[17:45] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: There is a method in the unit.. IsSubordinate()
[17:45] <niemeyer> Or IsPrincipal
[17:46] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that re-reads the topology each time, and it's unnecessary.
[17:46] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: the thing watching a machine is never going to want to see subordinates
[17:46] <rogpeppe> AFAICS
[17:49] <TheMue> niemeyer: http://play.golang.org/p/s5yfet7UL2
[17:49] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We can cache that information
[17:50] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: A unit is either subordinate or not, for its whole life
[17:50] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we could call the methods Machine.PrincipalUnits and Machine.PrincipalUnitsWatcher if we wanted to be clearer
[17:50] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Well, we can also rename the methods
[17:50] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: To suit what we need
[17:50] <TheMue> niemeyer: Alternative follows.
[17:50] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: jinx
[17:50] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yeah
[17:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'll review the code and provide you some feedback so that we can either move forward or have some better conversation tomorrow
[17:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Btw, we have to sort out the branch location too
[17:51] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'm fine with renaming it after we get some of those branches in, if we feel like so
[17:51] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: what's wrong with the branch location?
[17:52] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The stuff we talked in the ML
[17:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ah yeah. i definitely think it should be juju-core/trunk.
[17:52] <TheMue> niemeyer: http://play.golang.org/p/aFA7LtLhoR works.
[17:52] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Okay, I think juju-core/stuff would be nice too..
[17:52] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: -1
[17:53] <niemeyer> Hm?
[17:53] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: "stuff" implies random shit
[17:53] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: stuff as in {environs,juju,testing,cmd,...}
[17:53] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: definitely!
[17:54] <niemeyer> :)
[17:54] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'd expect it to be just the same as goamz etc
[17:54] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i was surprised when it wasn't
[17:54] <Aram> me too
[17:55] <Aram> that juju seemed redundant
[17:55] <niemeyer> TheMue: http://play.golang.org/p/aFA7LtLhoR
[17:55] <rogpeppe> anyway, really gotta go now! happy evening/day all.
[17:55] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Thanks for the day, and have a great evening
[17:55] <Aram> enjoy
[17:56] <TheMue> niemeyer: Yes, that's my second solution.
[17:56] <niemeyer> TheMue: Sorry, I fail
[17:56] <niemeyer> TheMue: http://play.golang.org/p/yg1N6xnJyo
[17:58] <TheMue> niemeyer: Ah, nice, the dereferencing of the argument has been new to me. Thx, great info.
[17:59] <niemeyer> TheMue: Yeah, pointers..
[17:59] <niemeyer> TheMue: Java "saves" you from that side of things
[18:00] <Aram> yeah, everything is a pointer.
[18:00] <niemeyer> (because *everything* is a pointer!)
[18:00] <niemeyer> Aram: Jinx :)
[18:00] <TheMue> niemeyer: Never have used them much. Not only Java, but also Erlang or Smalltalk.
[18:00] <niemeyer> TheMue: Erlang is a veeeery different beast :)
[18:01] <TheMue> niemeyer: Erlang indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed. But I like it, yeah.
[18:01] <TheMue> niemeyer: And Smalltalk also passes everything by reference.
[18:01] <niemeyer> TheMue: Passing by reference has a different meaning than what you imply, I suspect
[18:02] <TheMue> niemeyer: It's different, yes.
[18:02] <Aram> ALGOL passes variables not by value or reference, but by name, sort of like a macro.
[18:02] <niemeyer> TheMue: C++ has by-reference semantics, and it sucks
[18:03] <TheMue> niemeyer: Only done C++ a bit in the late 80s.
[18:03] <niemeyer> Aram: Oh, never read about that
[18:04] <TheMue> niemeyer: But it hasn't been my language. During this time I more used the good old Turbo Pascal. ;)
[18:05] <Aram> long time ago I introduced a Pascal friend to C, and he loved it because it wasn't really type safe like Pascal.
[18:05] <Aram> you could do lots of stupid tricks.
[18:07] <TheMue> Aram: I loved Smalltalk, but it's sadly going deeper and deeper into history. And the implementations missing good concurrent VMs. There's only one experimental by IBM.
[18:31] <TheMue> So, have to leave for today.
[18:31] <TheMue> niemeyer: First changed methods look and feel good.
[18:31] <niemeyer> TheMue: Sweet!
[18:31] <TheMue> niemeyer: ;)
[20:05] <niemeyer> bcsaller: ping
[20:16] <bcsaller> niemeyer: whats up?
[20:16] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Heya
[20:16] <niemeyer> bcsaller: I was just looking at that branch from rog
[20:17] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Have you found an edge case where it would leave data in an inconsistent state?
[20:17] <niemeyer> Hmm
[20:18] <bcsaller> niemeyer: thats not what I was pointing out, it was just that the method seemed to be triggered before subordinates were bound to the principal unless I read it wrong
[20:18] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Is there a way to create a subordinate unit without binding it to a principal?
[20:19] <niemeyer> bcsaller: (unit, not service)
[20:19] <bcsaller> the service yes, instances only appear when the relation is satisfied, you can deploy the sub w/o a realation and only ZK is changed
[20:19] <bcsaller> niemeyer: no, sub units always have a principal, but can be added well after the establishment of the principal
[20:20] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Right, but his code path also covers that
[20:20] <niemeyer> bcsaller: In the sense that he's checking to see if the principal is assigned by the time the subordinate is added
[20:21] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Do you see another angle open?
[20:21] <bcsaller> the other thing I mentioned is that machine assigment is the watch trigger to deploying a UA.
[20:22] <niemeyer> Cool
[20:22] <niemeyer> bcsaller: There's a race there too I suppose
[20:23] <bcsaller> niemeyer: in the python version we proxy the machine id lookup to the principal for the subs and don't do the assignment
[20:23] <bcsaller> niemeyer: that might not be the best way, but its a possible path forward
[20:23] <niemeyer> if the unit is assigned to a machine while concurrently a subordinate unit is added to the principal, the subordinate will be added without a machine, and the principal will not notice the existence of the unit
[20:23] <niemeyer> Well, or maybe not if it's properly done within a retryChange transaction
[20:24] <niemeyer> bcsaller: It feels less fiddly for sure
[20:24] <bcsaller> niemeyer: in this case the principal is processing its relation change events and deciding if it needs to take action (deploy a subordinate)
[20:24] <bcsaller> but the MA isn't involved
[20:25] <bcsaller> which in the LXC everywhere future I think is important
[23:04] <andrewsmedina> why the zookeeper will be replaced?
[23:05] <davecheney> andrewsmedina: for a number of reasons, one being it won't run on arm
[23:09] <andrewsmedina> davecheney: hmm
[23:11] <andrewsmedina> juju will run on arm?
[23:12] <davecheney> i hope so, arm is a supported ubuntu server platform
[23:21] <hazmat> SpamapS, +1  rest apis and soa
[23:21] <hazmat> its in the plans
[23:21] <hazmat> i believe
[23:27] <SpamapS> good :)
[23:33] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS == Clint Byrum ?
[23:34] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: indeed :)
[23:35] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: :)


[00:21] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: filemanager-actions [i386] (disco-proposed/universe) [3.4-2] (no packageset)
[00:21] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: python-apptools [amd64] (disco-proposed/universe) [4.4.0-1] (no packageset)
[00:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: filemanager-actions [amd64] (disco-proposed/universe) [3.4-2] (no packageset)
[00:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: docker.io (xenial-proposed/universe) [18.06.1-0ubuntu1.2~16.04.1 => 18.09.2-0ubuntu1~16.04.1] (no packageset)
[00:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: docker.io (bionic-proposed/universe) [18.06.1-0ubuntu1.2~18.04.1 => 18.09.2-0ubuntu1~18.04.1] (no packageset)
[00:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: docker.io (cosmic-proposed/universe) [18.06.1-0ubuntu1.2 => 18.09.2-0ubuntu1~18.10.1] (no packageset)
[00:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: filemanager-actions [s390x] (disco-proposed/universe) [3.4-2] (no packageset)
[00:39] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: filemanager-actions [ppc64el] (disco-proposed/universe) [3.4-2] (no packageset)
[00:41] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: filemanager-actions [arm64] (disco-proposed/universe) [3.4-2] (no packageset)
[00:41] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: filemanager-actions [armhf] (disco-proposed/universe) [3.4-2] (no packageset)
[01:46] <Trevinho> please when anyone in the SRU team has team, give a look at the gnome-shell (stack) stuff we've prepared some weeks ago, as there are some wanted fixes that would be nice to get into proposed verification ASAP.
[02:26] <jbicha> vorlon: if you're still around: https://code.launchpad.net/~jbicha/britney/add-vbox/+merge/363107
[05:27] <mitya57> vorlon: I woke up and looks like it has migrated now
[05:28] <mitya57> Ah, sorry, you mean -gles, not the normal qtbase package.
[05:28]  * mitya57 will look a bit later
[05:49] <vorlon> mitya57: well, now it's failing to migrate because of a newly-triggered autopkgtest that fails (soqt)
[05:50] <vorlon> with a very strange error ; retrying
[05:51] <vorlon> ah, it's an error that was fixed in a -1ubuntu1
[08:10] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: matplotlib2 (disco-proposed/primary) [2.2.3-6]
[09:20] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: linux-meta-hwe-edge (xenial-proposed/main) [<IP_ADDRESS>.64 => <IP_ADDRESS>.65] (kernel)
[09:28] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected linux-meta-hwe-edge [source] (xenial-proposed) [<IP_ADDRESS>.65]
[09:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted filemanager-actions [amd64] (disco-proposed) [3.4-2]
[09:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted filemanager-actions [armhf] (disco-proposed) [3.4-2]
[09:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted filemanager-actions [ppc64el] (disco-proposed) [3.4-2]
[09:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted filemanager-actions [arm64] (disco-proposed) [3.4-2]
[09:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted filemanager-actions [s390x] (disco-proposed) [3.4-2]
[09:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted filemanager-actions [i386] (disco-proposed) [3.4-2]
[10:05] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted python-apptools [amd64] (disco-proposed) [4.4.0-1]
[11:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: landscape-client (cosmic-proposed/main) [18.01-0ubuntu4.1 => 18.01-0ubuntu4.2] (ubuntu-server)
[11:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: landscape-client (bionic-proposed/main) [18.01-0ubuntu3.2 => 18.01-0ubuntu3.3] (ubuntu-server)
[11:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: landscape-client (xenial-proposed/main) [16.03-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 16.03-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (ubuntu-server)
[13:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: binutils-mipsen (disco-proposed/primary) [2~c2]
[13:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted binutils-mipsen [sync] (disco-proposed) [2~c2]
[13:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: rejected matplotlib2 [sync] (disco-proposed) [2.2.3-5]
[13:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted matplotlib2 [sync] (disco-proposed) [2.2.3-6]
[13:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted budgie-extras [amd64] (disco-proposed) [0.8.0-0ubuntu1]
[13:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: rejected matplotlib2 [source] (disco-proposed) [2.2.3-5ubuntu1]
[15:08] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: spirv-llvm-translator (disco-proposed/primary) [8.0.0-1]
[16:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: matplotlib2 [amd64] (disco-proposed/universe) [2.2.3-6] (no packageset)
[19:02] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed-azure [amd64] (bionic-proposed/main) [4.18.0-1009.9~18.04.1] (kernel)
[19:28] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted matplotlib2 [amd64] (disco-proposed) [2.2.3-6]
[19:28] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted spirv-llvm-translator [sync] (disco-proposed) [8.0.0-1]
[19:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: spirv-llvm-translator [i386] (disco-proposed/universe) [8.0.0-1] (no packageset)
[19:33] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: spirv-llvm-translator [amd64] (disco-proposed/universe) [8.0.0-1] (no packageset)
[20:16] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted spirv-llvm-translator [amd64] (disco-proposed) [8.0.0-1]
[20:16] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted spirv-llvm-translator [i386] (disco-proposed) [8.0.0-1]
[21:18] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: s390-tools (cosmic-proposed/main) [2.6.0-0ubuntu7.1 => 2.6.0-0ubuntu7.2] (core)
[21:19] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: s390-tools (bionic-proposed/main) [2.3.0-0ubuntu3.1 => 2.3.0-0ubuntu3.2] (core)
[21:32] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New source: masakari (disco-proposed/primary) [7.0.0~b1-0ubuntu1]
[22:45] <acheronuk> FYI 'networking infra issues' means non x86 build and autopkgtest queues have not moved for a few hrs. people are on it from what I was told in #launchpad though
[23:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libpam-mount [source] (cosmic-proposed) [2.16-5ubuntu0.1]


[11:34] <AlsoItzSwirlz> Good morning/afternoon security team, you may want to take a look at "fractureiser", some jerk compromised the 2FA for a Minecraft mod website, and the malware does contain payloads for Linux systems. https://hackmd.io/@jaskarth4/B1gaTOaU2
[11:34] <AlsoItzSwirlz> And it is *really* dense, like, this is an intentional attack.
[11:35] <AlsoItzSwirlz> I know screaming about a custom mod for a block game in an IRC channel for ubuntu security is super random, but I want to just fwd the information
[17:42] <sarnold> the github page for the hackmd link https://github.com/fractureiser-investigation/fractureiser


[06:36] <mup> Bug #2026802 opened: MAAS 3.4 installed with deb fails to start the rack due to permission error <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026802>
[06:42] <mup> Bug #2026802 changed: MAAS 3.4 installed with deb fails to start the rack due to permission error <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026802>
[06:45] <mup> Bug #2026802 opened: MAAS 3.4 installed with deb fails to start the rack due to permission error <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026802>
[06:51] <mup> Bug #2026802 changed: MAAS 3.4 installed with deb fails to start the rack due to permission error <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026802>
[07:00] <mup> Bug #2026802 opened: MAAS 3.4 installed with deb fails to start the rack due to permission error <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026802>
[08:51] <mup> Bug #2026815 opened: MAAS 3.5 UI doesn't have the Add Hardware button on a screen 950x406 <ui> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026815>
[08:54] <mup> Bug #2026815 changed: MAAS 3.5 UI doesn't have the Add Hardware button on a screen 950x406 <ui> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026815>
[09:03] <mup> Bug #2026815 opened: MAAS 3.5 UI doesn't have the Add Hardware button on a screen 950x406 <ui> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026815>
[10:06] <mup> Bug #2026822 opened: test_allocate_new_works_under_extreme_concurrency flaky test <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026822>
[10:06] <mup> Bug #2026824 opened: MaaS v3.4, Enlistment fail for a machine with BIOS Legacy if PXE interface is the second one <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026824>
[15:01] <mup> Bug #2026876 opened: test_handler_is_called_on_config_change flaky test <flaky-test> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026876>
[15:04] <mup> Bug #2026876 changed: test_handler_is_called_on_config_change flaky test <flaky-test> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026876>
[15:07] <mup> Bug #2026876 opened: test_handler_is_called_on_config_change flaky test <flaky-test> <MAAS:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026876>


[15:24] <MassiveTR> ubuntu-one says The authentication failed. when i try to login please help
[15:26] <pmatulis> MassiveTR: bad credentials.  try resetting the password
[15:26] <MassiveTR> ill try
[15:34] <MassiveTR> it still says the authentication failed
[16:36] <Listener> Good morning, sound has disappeared from my otherwise perfectly working system. Any thoughts as to how to troubleshoot this?
[18:05] <Listener> So, I have this odd problem, I am only able to play music as root. Yes, I am a member of the audio group.
[18:12] <bioterror> Listener, sounds quite weird
[18:15] <Listener> bioterror: I think so.
[18:16] <bioterror> is this a default lubuntu installation?
[18:16] <bioterror> as you seem to have root account enabled and probably logged in?
[18:17] <Listener> bioterror: "sudo aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav" works
[18:17] <Listener> bioterror: "aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav" does not
[18:18] <Listener> bioterror: yes, default lubuntu, up to date
[18:18] <wxl> ls -lh /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav
[18:18] <bioterror> hmmm
[18:18] <bioterror> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1995103
[18:19] <bioterror> not the only one
[18:19] <Listener> bioterror: misery loves company
[18:20] <wxl> ^^ Listener
[18:22] <bioterror> Listener, what if you run alsamixer with your user?
[18:22] <bioterror> not as root
[18:22] <bioterror> just as a regular user
[18:22] <bioterror> nothing is muted and so on?
[18:23] <wxl> and do we know this is not a permissions problem for some reason? can't imagine it would be, but…
[18:23] <wxl> maybe a cp /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav ~/ is in order
[18:23] <bioterror> I would start with the alsamixer
[18:23] <Listener> bioterror: alsamixer seem to run fine as either user or root
[18:24] <bioterror> and nothing is muted?
[18:24] <bioterror> as I stated, do not run as root
[18:24] <bioterror> and what's the output of aplay without root?
[18:24] <wxl> ^ yes tat
[18:25] <Listener> bioterror: ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:985:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to create IPC semaphore
[18:25] <Listener> aplay: main:682: audio open error: Permission denied
[18:25] <wxl> ooh fu
[18:25] <bioterror> hoho
[18:25] <wxl> n
[18:27] <wxl> O_O http://darkness.codefu.org/wordpress/2007/12/linux-audio-strikes-back/
[18:29] <Listener> wxl: I saw that...
[18:29] <wxl> i think that's your solution, as crazy as it sounds
[18:30] <bioterror> 2007? :D
[18:30] <bioterror> I would reinstall soundcard
[18:30] <wxl> i hear what you're saying, however, i still see that same problem all across the internets
[18:31] <Listener> wxl: no longer a \etc\alsa directory
[18:32] <wxl> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4130234/connecting-to-alsa
[18:33] <Listener> wxl: err /etc/alsa
[18:36] <Listener> wxl: yeah, I saw that too, but I don't seem to have an .asoundrc file
[18:37] <wxl> grep ipc_key /usr/share/alsa/*
[18:38] <Listener> wxl: /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf:defaults.pcm.ipc_key 5678293
[18:38] <wxl> same as me
[18:39] <wxl> to get hex: printf '%x\n' 5678293
[18:39] <wxl> 56a4d5
[18:39] <Listener> wxl: that's a nice trick
[18:40] <Listener> wxl: least i learned something today
[18:40] <wxl> same thing with dude, i see 56a4d5 and 56a4d6
[18:41] <wxl> although nattach column for me is 2
[18:41] <kanliot> if it's worth anything let me know, i'll put it on the wiki
[18:42] <kanliot> sorry but i'm already late
[18:42] <wxl> i'm thinking this is less wiki and more bug report
[18:42] <wxl> seems pernicious across many distros
[18:42] <wxl> and the reason is not clear
[18:42] <kanliot> :)
[18:44] <wxl> Listener: what are your nattach values?
[18:44] <wxl> those are attached processes
[18:45] <wxl> you probably don't want to mess with removing those memory assignments if it's non-zero ;)
[18:46] <wxl> if it's zero run ipcrm -M and ipcrm -S on the hex value
[18:46] <wxl> then supposedly audio worked but the comment suggests restarting alsa which may be necessary
[18:47] <wxl> which is easy: sudo alsa force-reload
[18:48] <Listener> wxl: ipcs -m?
[18:49] <wxl> lastly i'd REALLY encourage you to file a bug report. i don't know what conditions result in this occuring but it obviously didn't for a bunch of us here. and i have a feeling the ALSA devs are the only ones that are going to have a clue about where to go with this.
[18:49] <wxl> ipcs -M not -m
[18:49] <wxl> oh
[18:49] <wxl> no
[18:49] <wxl> hold on
[18:49] <wxl> ipcrm -M
[18:49] <wxl> IPC = interprocess communication
[18:49] <wxl> rm = remove ;)
[18:49] <wxl> -M = memory
[18:49] <wxl> -S = semaphore
[18:50] <Listener> wxl: sorry, how do I find my nattach values
[18:50] <wxl> hold a sec
[18:51] <wxl> 0x0056a4d5 748453909  wxl        660        488        2
[18:51] <wxl> 0x0056a4d6 748486678  wxl        660        65536      2
[18:51] <wxl> 0x0056a4d5 469204994  wxl        660        1
[18:51] <wxl> that's the result of:
[18:51] <wxl> ipcs -a | grep 0x0056a4d
[18:51] <wxl> see the two there at the end?
[18:52] <wxl> that's the nattach column
[18:52] <wxl> key | shmid | owner | perms | bytes | nattach | status
[18:52] <Listener> wxl: got it, numm repslt
[18:52] <wxl> um. is that a typo? ;)
[18:53] <Listener> wxl: got it, null result
[18:53] <wxl> null is curious
[18:53] <wxl> i guess null is as good as zero
[18:53] <wxl> nothing's attached
[18:53] <wxl> so now you can do the ipcrm -M and ipcrm -S on the hex values
[18:53] <wxl> e.g. ipcrm -M 0x0056a4d5
[18:55] <wxl> well this was fun :)
[18:55] <Listener> wxl: done
[18:55] <Listener> aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav
[18:55] <Listener> ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1018:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave
[18:55] <Listener> aplay: main:682: audio open error: Device or resource busy
[18:55] <wxl> restart alsa
[18:55] <wxl> which is easy: sudo alsa force-reload
[18:56] <Listener> aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav
[18:56] <Listener> ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1089:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to initialize sum ring buffer
[18:56] <Listener> aplay: main:682: audio open error: Permission denied
[18:57] <wxl> wow that's fun and new
[18:57] <Listener> wxl: and I am out of time to wrestle with this
[18:57] <Listener> wxl: Thanks for your help
[18:57] <wxl> no prob
[18:58] <Listener> wxl: where should I file the bug report
[18:59] <wxl> well
[18:59] <wxl> you need to file a bug report on something
[18:59] <wxl> since you have no problem with alsamixer
[18:59] <wxl> i'm going to say point the finger at aplay
[18:59] <wxl> so run a:
[18:59] <wxl> ubuntu-bug alsa-utils
[19:01] <wxl> thanks in advance Listener
[19:01] <Listener> wxl: no prob... it'll be filed this afternoon
[19:01] <Listener> ttfn
[19:08] <angrysheep> hrm do you think i could replace PCMan with Nautilus? And if I removed PCMan completely would this harm my system due to PCMan controlling the icons and desktop?
[19:09] <bioterror> yes
[19:09] <angrysheep> to both?
[19:09] <bioterror> yes
[19:09] <Unit193> nautilus --no-desktop, iirc?
[19:10] <angrysheep> Hrm, so that would make nautilus only a file manager?
[19:10] <Unit193> Nautilus likes to take over everything, desktop, etc.
[19:12] <angrysheep> Trying to think of alternitives.. I use LXDE for stability not the lightweight reasons. Just wondering if there is a way to configure them to have a little something extra (already tried replacing openbox with icewm and did not like it)
[19:13] <angrysheep> I guess im using LXDE as a gnome 2 replacement and would love to be able to configure my own happy place that feels and performs like gnome 2
[19:14] <bioterror> move to mate, then
[19:14] <bioterror> they have "caja"
[19:16] <angrysheep> I'm running mate now, but I fear that upstream where it is not supported by lubuntu I may run into issues
[20:12] <xRirishi> Hi
[20:12] <xRirishi> I'm trying to install lubuntu
[20:13] <xRirishi> But I got a black screen with MANY lines in white text
[20:13] <xRirishi> ---[ cut here ]---
[20:14] <bioterror> during bootup or what?
[20:14] <xRirishi> WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-3.2.0/kernel/watchdog.c:241 blabla
[20:14] <xRirishi> Eh I opened the install screen
[20:14] <xRirishi> Selected language and chose to install updates and stuff. Then clicked next
[20:14] <xRirishi> And this showed up
[20:15] <xRirishi> Watchdog detected hard LOCKUP on cpu 0
[20:15] <xRirishi> It says on one of the first lines
[20:15] <xRirishi> And then
[20:16] <xRirishi> Modules linked in: <much text>
[20:19] <bioterror> sounds weird
[20:19] <bioterror> once again :D
[20:19] <bioterror> have you tried reboot and run installer again
[20:21] <xRirishi> XD
[20:21] <xRirishi> Ill try
[20:22] <xRirishi> Oh I got a K8V-F mobo with Radeon 9600
[20:22] <xRirishi> If you need that
[20:26] <xRirishi> And an AMD Athlon 64
[20:26] <xRirishi> 2GHx
[20:26] <xRirishi> GHz*
[20:31] <xRirishi> Trying again now
[20:31] <xRirishi> Hi
[20:33] <n1ckn4me09876543> when I try to update using Update Manager it will search/download stuff but then I get this pop up window message:
[20:33] <n1ckn4me09876543> Failed to download repository information
[20:33] <n1ckn4me09876543> Check your Internet connection.
[20:33] <n1ckn4me09876543> Details W:Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/ferramroberto/java/ubuntu/dists/precise/main/source/Sources  404  Not Found
[20:33] <n1ckn4me09876543> , W:Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/ferramroberto/java/ubuntu/dists/precise/main/binary-i386/Packages  404  Not Found
[20:33] <n1ckn4me09876543> , E:Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
[20:35] <Unit193> You added a PPA that wasn't made for Precise.
[20:36] <xRirishi> I tried to start the installer again, but it had a kernel panic at the point after selecting to install updates or not...
[20:36] <xRirishi> panic occured, switching back to text console. Is the last line
[20:37] <xRirishi> Kernel Panic - Not syncing: Fatal exception in interrupt.
[20:37] <xRirishi> What should I do?
[20:38] <n1ckn4me09876543> Unit193, thanks I think i'll remove that
[20:38] <Unit193> !ppa-purge | n1ckn4me09876543
[20:38] <bioterror> xRirishi, try alternate installer
[20:38] <bioterror> xRirishi, I would
[20:39] <xRirishi> What does that do?
[20:39] <bioterror> !alternate | xRirishi
[20:40] <xRirishi> Sigh..
[20:41] <xRirishi> There goes 1.5 hours of downloading again
[20:41] <xRirishi> !minimal
[20:41] <bioterror> :o
[20:42] <xRirishi> Yeah I got 150Kb/s -.-
[20:42] <xRirishi> Im a kid :D
[20:42] <xRirishi> Im 13.
[20:42] <xRirishi> XD
[20:42] <bioterror> niice
[20:43] <xRirishi> Why?
[20:43] <xRirishi> Shall I do ubuntu or lubuntu?
[20:43] <valdur55> yea nice! Many young pepole don't like linux.
[20:43] <bioterror> lubuntu, ofcourse!
[20:44] <xRirishi> Ok
[20:44] <bioterror> miniman is my personal favourite!
[20:44] <bioterror> minimal even
[20:44] <xRirishi> Why valdur55
[20:44] <xRirishi> IDK if I like it
[20:44] <xRirishi> It seems not to like my PC -.-
[20:45] <xRirishi> I got a "seemingly" 64 bit AMD
[20:45] <xRirishi> but..
[20:45] <xRirishi> A friend tells me to try 32 bit
[20:45] <xRirishi> Shall I do it?
[20:45] <bioterror> if you dont have 4GB of RAM, it you dont get much benefits of the 64bit
[20:46] <xRirishi> O lol
[20:46] <xRirishi> I got 2 GB
[20:46] <bioterror> I would go with the x86
[20:46] <xRirishi> Ok
[20:47] <n1ckn4me09876543> Unit193: yep got it, thank you.
[20:47] <Ririshi> hey
[20:47] <Ririshi> This is me on my PC
[20:47] <Ririshi> I was on my iPod
[20:49] <Ririshi> can someone link me to the minimal x86 lubuntu?
[20:49] <Ririshi> I cant find it :p
[20:50] <holstein> i would just use https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD#A32-bit_PC_.28x86.29
[20:51] <holstein> and install lubuntu-desktop.. im not aware of an official "lubuntu minimal"
[20:54] <Ririshi> how can i install lubuntu desktop when i can only download ubuntu on this site?
[20:56] <xRirishi> ?!
[20:59] <Ririshi_> Is someone there
[21:00] <Ririshi> Sigh.
[21:01] <valdur55> Ririshi, is your ISO ok ? Check witch md5sum
[21:01] <Ririshi> I DIDN'T DOWNLOAD ANYTHING -.-
[21:01] <Ririshi> lol
[21:02] <Ririshi> I ask you: how can i install lubuntu if I download Ubuntu from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD#A32-bit_PC_.28x86.29
[21:04] <Ririshi> I'll try Ubuntu mini.
[21:05] <valdur55> Ririshi, boot from cd and hit any key when you see Man and keyboard. Then select "check disk for defects"
[21:05] <Ririshi> Thank you. I will try.
[21:07] <bioterror> Ririshi, sudo apt-get install lubuntu-desktop
[21:07] <bioterror> if you have installed minimal
[21:07] <Ririshi> Eh.. totally new to linux/anything..
[21:08] <Ririshi> how to do that command?
[21:10] <Ririshi_> Wow
[21:10] <Ririshi_> Weird sound came outta my pc 0.0
[21:14] <Ririshi_> The minimal seems to work...
[21:14] <bioterror> ofcourse ;)
[21:14] <Ririshi_> Hope it'll work :D
[21:14] <Ririshi_> I got past archive server
[21:14] <Ririshi_> Its loading installationmodules arm
[21:14] <Ririshi_> Atm*
[21:15] <Ririshi_> Sorry if my english is bad.. i'm Dutch
[21:17] <kanliot> ririshi have you tried the alternate cd?
[21:17] <kanliot> it's good for low-ram pcs
[21:17] <Ririshi_> What is low ram?
[21:18] <kanliot> depends
[21:18] <kanliot> why are you using the minimal?
[21:18] <Ririshi_> How should I do the HDD partitions?
[21:18] <kanliot> root and swap
[21:18] <kanliot> 2 partitions
[21:18] <bioterror> Ririshi_, 1.5x the RAM for swap and and rest  for /
[21:18] <Ririshi_> What?!
[21:18] <Ririshi_> ARGH
[21:18] <bioterror> :D
[21:18] <bioterror> use auto
[21:19] <bioterror> it will do
[21:19] <Ririshi_> Will it wipe my previous windows?
[21:19] <kanliot> how much RAM do you have?
[21:19] <bioterror> Ririshi_, ofcourse it will :D
[21:19] <Ririshi_> I dont want it to...
[21:19] <Ririshi_> I'll do manual
[21:20] <bioterror> there should be option for "side by side"
[21:20] <kanliot> hes doing minimal right?
[21:20] <Ririshi_> Yeah
[21:22] <Ririshi_> So I got my 140GB free space
[21:22] <Ririshi_> How should I make it?
[21:22] <bioterror> Ririshi_, 4GB for swap and rest for /
[21:22] <Ririshi_> Prim or logic?
[21:22] <Ririshi_> Type of the new partition
[21:22] <Ririshi_> ..
[21:23] <bioterror> ext2
[21:23] <bioterror> sorry
[21:23] <Ririshi_> Eh
[21:23] <bioterror> ext4 :D
[21:23] <Ririshi_> Wtf.
[21:23] <bioterror> filesystem is ext4
[21:23] <Ririshi_> I got primair and logic?
[21:23] <bioterror> primary
[21:23] <Ririshi_> Ok
[21:23] <Ririshi_> Begin or end?
[21:23] <bioterror> begin
[21:24] <Ririshi_> Ext4? For the 4GB swap
[21:24] <bioterror> no
[21:24] <bioterror> swap is swap
[21:24] <bioterror> ext4 for the /
[21:24] <Ririshi_> Swap area? (i got installer i dutch)
[21:25] <Ririshi_> And now for the other 136GB
[21:25] <Ririshi_> Ext4?
[21:25] <bioterror> yes
[21:26] <Ririshi_> On / and no label?
[21:26] <bioterror> and when it asks for mount point, you tell /
[21:26] <Ririshi_> And mount options?
[21:26] <Ririshi_> Default?
[21:26] <bioterror> yes
[21:26] <Ririshi_> Label?
[21:26] <bioterror> you can label it as "root" without ""
[21:27] <Ririshi_> Eh how do you translate this..
[21:27] <Ririshi_> Typical use
[21:27] <Ririshi_> Its on standard noe
[21:27] <Ririshi_> Now*
[21:28] <Ririshi_> Bootable-flag on?
[21:28] <bioterror> yeah
[21:30] <Ririshi_> Its partitioning
[21:30] <Ririshi_> Basic system is getting installed
[21:30] <Ririshi_> Being*
[21:31] <Ririshi_> What is dpkg?
[21:31] <bioterror> deb k
[21:31] <Ririshi_> Err
[21:31] <bioterror> debian package manager
[21:31] <Ririshi_> Ah
[21:31] <Ririshi_> :p
[21:31] <Ririshi_> I'm totally new
[21:32] <bioterror> like we all was one day
[21:32] <bioterror> you're taking the best step for this :D
[21:32] <bioterror> like how I did my fist installations
[21:32] <bioterror> (I still do them like that, mostly)
[21:32] <Ririshi_> It would be totally fxck'd if I just formatted my windows lol
[21:33] <Ririshi_> Everything really needed is on there xD
[21:33] <Ririshi_> Like school stuff and all that
[21:33] <bioterror> :D
[21:33] <Ririshi_> -_______________________-
[21:34] <Ririshi_> Lol it gets many different stuff.. Bur it keeps at 6% lol
[21:34] <Ririshi_> But*
[21:40] <Ririshi_> Wooo
[21:40] <Ririshi_> 83%
[21:40] <Ririshi_> Downloading a package.
[22:17] <Ririshi> Hey
[22:17] <Ririshi> I installed it.
[22:18] <Ririshi> But... I said to install it in the MBR. But it automaticaly starts windows..
[22:19] <Ririshi> And i tried to press F8 and choose the right HD. Now I'm at a screen with: "error: no such partition. grub rescue>"
[22:19] <kanliot> you need to install grub to your right hard drive
[22:20] <kanliot> i'd help, but you don't have backups
[22:20] <Ririshi> Huh?
[22:20] <Ririshi> I installed grub to the "primary" drive with the win 7 loader
[22:21] <Ririshi> Now what can i do?
[22:21] <Ririshi> Grub rescue> _
[22:21] <Ririshi> How to manually start it? Or something..
[22:24] <Ririshi> Eh..
[22:25] <Ririshi> I'm in Ubuntu 12.04 LTS <pc name> tty1
[22:25] <Ririshi> How to start ubuntu itself
[22:25] <kanliot> you can also try #ubuntu for help
[22:26] <Ririshi> Ok
[22:35] <bioterror> Ririshi, sudo apt-get install lubuntu-desktop
[22:35] <bioterror> Ririshi, run that command
[22:35] <bioterror> I would also run sudo apt-get update, before that command
[22:35] <bioterror> Ririshi, sorry, I passed out on a sofa :D
[22:36] <Ririshi> How?
[22:36] <Ririshi> How do I run it,
[22:38] <Ririshi> Passed out again? >.<
[22:38] <Ririshi> TRING BUZZZZZZZZ
[22:39] <Ririshi> Okay....
[22:39] <Ririshi> I got into grub by booting from usb..
[22:39] <Ririshi> Now I pressed ubuntu and monitor turned off..
[22:40] <Ririshi> Sigh -.-
[22:40] <Ririshi> My monitor just doesnt get a signal..
[22:44] <Ririshi> Hmm
[22:44] <Ririshi> I got into recoverymode and opened a terminal
[22:45] <Ririshi> Then did sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get install lubuntu-desktop
[22:47] <Ririshi> Now its installing
[22:50] <Ririshi> Everyones dead -.-
[22:59] <Ririshi> Hey
[23:00] <Ririshi> I'm installing the lubuntu-desktop package from recovery terminal and during the , my screen went black?
[23:02] <angrysheep> hrm in lubuntu how do you replace openbox with metacity? I am able to do it in pclinuxos but they have special configuration tools
[23:04] <angrysheep> I also failed switching PCman with Nautilus, I edited the deasktop.config file and rebooted and nothing
[23:05] <angrysheep> *desktop
[23:12] <Ririshi> Sigh
[23:23] <Cullens> hum hello ?
[23:24] <Ririshi> Hi
[23:25] <Cullens> can you help the noob I am on lubuntu ?
[23:25] <Ririshi> I am afraid I cannot
[23:25] <valdur55> !ask
[23:27] <Cullens> fine... I have installed Lubuntu after seeing ubuntu was too heavy for my computer... the problem is that lubuntu works, but when i want to go on internet (by chromium or firefox) it just freezes
[23:29] <valdur55> How much ram you have?
[23:29] <Cullens> good question...
[23:31] <Cullens> 4Go
[23:32] <valdur55> free -m
[23:32] <Ririshi> Valdur?
[23:32] <valdur55> On lxterminal.
[23:33] <Ririshi> I got ubuntu minimal installed and I try to install lubuntu-desktop, but I keep getting kernel panics.. What to do
[23:34] <valdur55> Ririshi, you can run live-cd ?
[23:35] <Ririshi> As in start a live session thing?
[23:35] <Ririshi> I'm afraid that will kernel-panic too, as soon as I click 3 times
[23:35] <Cullens> (doesn't do anything...)
[23:36] <valdur55> Ririshi, reboot computer and when you see Man and Keyboard then hit Space. Then open "check disk for errors" and you may need check your RAM...  And next time use memdisk
[23:36] <valdur55> Cullens, it should give some outpud
[23:37] <Cullens> it's difficult... i can't give them to you... i'm on another computer
[23:37] <Ririshi> Whats memdisk
[23:37] <Cullens> 3020
[23:38] <valdur55> Total mem :)
[23:38] <Cullens> yeap 3020
[23:40] <valdur55> Cullens, grep name /proc/cpuinfo
[23:41] <Ririshi> Valdur: I don't see any men with keyboards
[23:41] <Cullens> pentium (R) Dual Core CPU T4200  2.00GHz
[23:43] <valdur55> Ririshi, i don't have solution for kernel panics.
[23:43] <Ririshi> Sigh ):
[23:43] <valdur55> Cullens, type top to terminal
[23:44] <valdur55> Cullens, and then open firefox / chromium-browser
[23:45] <Cullens> done
[23:45] <valdur55> what happens ?
[23:46] <Cullens> nothing...
[23:46] <valdur55> does it frezee ?
[23:46] <Cullens> on chromium yeap...
[23:47] <Cullens> it works with google search, but then impossible to do anything else
[23:47] <valdur55> put terminal window as allways on top.
[23:48] <valdur55> and then look what happens...
[23:48] <Cullens> ok
[23:48] <valdur55> Maybe your settings are bad?
[23:49] <Cullens> what could be bad...? i just installed lubuntu an hour ago
[23:51] <valdur55> ChanServ, ok... is it default conf?
[23:51] <Cullens> I just followed everything which was written...
[23:57] <valdur55> Damn... your perfomance is nice... I have machine with lower spec and i don't have problems
[23:57] <Cullens> well... i didn't have any problem before I installed linux...


[02:34] <smartboyhw> Good morning Noskcaj
[02:42] <Noskcaj> afternoon smartboyhw
[05:08] <pitti> Good morning
[06:55] <smartboyhw> pitti, when can you finish the questions and e-mail it to me? :)
[06:55] <pitti> smartboyhw: certainly this week
[06:55] <smartboyhw> pitti, alright, thanks!
[07:29] <DanChapman> Good Morning :-)
[07:34] <smartboyhw> Hello DanChapman.
[12:54] <smartboyhw> Guys, classroom session coming up in 7 minutes!
[13:02] <smartboyhw> DanChapman, hey, my sesssion starts now!
[13:03] <DanChapman> ok 2 see you there
[13:07] <njin> balloons, hallo bad guy, can  have the right link for xmir testing ?
[13:10] <DanChapman> njin, THis one to install MIR http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/installing_prebuilt_on_pc.html and this one is the testcase http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/298/builds/47541/downloads
[13:14] <njin> DanChapman, thnaks
[13:14] <njin> thanks
[14:13] <phillw> smartboyhw / balloons sorry for not being there for the classroom sessin. The computer at my Dad's works has died (hard dsk failure).
[14:13] <smartboyhw> phillw, balloons isn't also:P
[14:13]  * balloons notes he is hiding
[14:47] <balloons> phillw, are you still here?
[15:04] <DanChapman> hey balloons :-)
[15:04] <balloons> Hey DanChapman
[15:04] <balloons> welcome to July my friend :-)
[15:05] <DanChapman> Is it july already??..... :-0 so it is!!
[15:06] <balloons> indeed!
[15:06] <knome> happy july
[15:07] <balloons> hello knome!
[15:08] <DanChapman> balloons did you see the 2 bugs I added today for screenshot and evince?
[15:09] <balloons> DanChapman, why yes they're right on top :-)
[15:09] <DanChapman> they passed ok if you run them seperately but if you ran the whole suite of tests together they have a meltdown.
[15:10] <balloons> wild.. and that's production, so that's no good :-(
[15:10] <balloons> do you have a moment to take a look at them?
[15:12] <DanChapman> Yeah no problem at all :-)
[15:13] <balloons> sweet. I imagine with pitti's fixes we might be able to do some things better now
[15:22] <smartboyhw> Happy July philipballew DanChapman balloons knome
[15:24] <philipballew> smartboyhw, Thank you
[15:24] <smartboyhw> :)
[15:24] <smartboyhw> And phillw and elfy
[15:41] <elopio> ping balloons. Juhapekka is on holidays this week. Can you get another person from the sdk team to review the two pending branches?
[15:41] <balloons> elopio, ping me again in 5 :-)
[15:41] <balloons> elopio, sure though.. We can ask Florian for help
[15:42] <balloons> elopio, Kaleo = Florian. Let me introduce you
[15:43] <elopio> that'd be great. I know nobody from those projects, it feels for me like they come from a separate company :)
[15:44] <balloons> intros have been made irc style :-)
[15:44] <smartboyhw> balloons, LOL
[15:47] <balloons> smartboyhw, I marked your work item done in the blueprint for the classroom session :-)
[15:47] <balloons> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-s-quality-growth
[15:47] <smartboyhw> balloons, thx
[16:21] <phillw> balloons: I'm just in the initial stages of installing a brand new Win 8 desktop machine.... Hmm, this is *fun* :/
[16:21] <balloons> phillw, I just wanted to share there's a fb page now :-) http://www.facebook.com/UbuntuQuality
[16:22] <balloons> I thought you might be especially keen.. Seems fb lets you have org pages, and since not everyone uses g+, well, it made sense to have the more timely content appear on facebook as well
[16:23] <smartboyhw> phillw: Use Win 8.1
[16:37] <balloons> elopio, cool, so you got one review in? :-) Also, did you see the link I sent about adding in slider functions?
[16:38] <elopio> balloons: yes, lets see if the lander bot doesn't complaint about the 'needs information' comment.
[16:39] <elopio> and I saw your email, I have here on my TODO for this week.
[16:39] <balloons> :-)
[16:39] <elopio> on friday I tried to make an emulator for the popover, but found nothing really worth it there.
[16:40] <elopio> I think a better approach would be to start writing emulators for the gallery project in ubuntu-ui-toolkit.
[16:47] <balloons> gallery project?
[16:48] <elopio> balloons: yes, there's a gallery of the components provided by the ui-toolkit.
[16:48] <elopio> with tests
[16:49] <elopio> I think I can use that to find some common things that will be useful as emulators.
[16:49] <balloons> ahh, tocha
[17:07] <chilicuil> balloons: help =), I was in the middle of my classroom session and ClassBot removed me the voice, my session was suppose to last 1 hour but it only let me write 30 minutes
[17:07] <balloons> chilicuil, ahh!
[17:07] <balloons> sure thing
[17:25] <zyga> anyone interested in reviewing a small bith of plainbox code: https://code.launchpad.net/~zkrynicki/checkbox/signal/+merge/172367
[17:45] <juggle> hi
[17:45] <juggle> i want to run test -cases
[17:46] <juggle> but i dont know the steps for that
[17:46] <juggle> where do i start ?
[17:46] <juggle> i signed on launchpad
[17:46] <juggle> installed bzr
[17:47] <juggle> and downloading 13.10 daily build of ubuntu
[17:47] <balloons> juggle, ok so if you want to run testcases and report results, you can do so using the qatracker
[17:48] <balloons> let me send you a few links to help you get started
[17:48] <juggle> ok i am waiting for links, thanks for your help
[17:49] <balloons> This is the QATeam wiki page if you haven't seen it :-) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
[17:49] <balloons> Here
[17:49] <balloons> Here's the page you need on the qatracker: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/QATracker
[17:50] <balloons> This week is week 2 for our cadence testing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Cadence/Saucy/Week2
[17:50] <balloons> So basically there are 2 basic things to test.. an image or a package
[17:51] <balloons> once you've downloaded the image you can test it using the testcases found here: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/270/builds
[17:51] <balloons> there are links at the top of the page that will help you
[17:51] <balloons> If you like video explanations, your still in luck: http://www.youtube.com/qualitybecomesyou
[17:52] <juggle> ok i joined the ubuntu quality team on launchpad
[17:52] <juggle>  i will continue with other links
[17:54] <balloons> perfect, just ping if you get stuck anywhere or something is confusing :-)
[17:54] <juggle> ok i will do :)
[17:54] <balloons> if no one is around, feel free to pm me anytime
[17:54] <balloons> i'll get the message whenever I'm around again and follow-up with you
[17:57] <juggle> ok, thank you
[18:04] <elfy> evening
[18:05] <balloons> evening elfy
[18:05] <juggle> evening elfy
[18:06] <phillw> balloons: you have email :)
[18:06] <balloons> phillw, I saw the fb post..
[18:06] <balloons> we know have a better outlet for everyone to discuss since there is an org page
[18:07] <balloons> afaik.. ali is also a part of the new org page as an admin.. But since I have access to a presence on fb now I can share with everyone :-)
[18:07] <balloons> I assume it's similar to a community vs a page on g+
[18:09] <phillw> balloons: do you want me tell everyone to move>?
[18:09] <phillw> - >
[18:10] <balloons> phillw, no no, as far as I understand it everything is as it should be. The difference is one is an organization page vs a community page. You can't "join" the org page
[18:10] <phillw> fb will be the death of  me! :P
[18:10] <balloons> but it should mean the stuff being posted about what's going on in quality can now be easily shared with the community and discussed
[18:11] <balloons> phillw, lol.. ali is perhaps the best one to explain it
[18:11] <balloons> he's happy seemingly with the addition, so I consider it a good thing
[18:11] <phillw> I'll leave all that stuff to him :)
[18:11] <balloons> :-)
[18:12] <phillw> he's admin on the community page as well, so can tweak settings as needed :)
[18:12] <juggle> is it ok to install saucy salamender release on virtualbox
[18:19] <balloons> juggle, indeed. In fact there's a neat tool called testdrive that helps with this
[18:20] <balloons> juggle, we just had a session on it; http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/06/29/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t20:31
[18:20] <balloons> have a read through :-)
[18:25] <juggle> i read, first i will install saucy salamender on virtualbox then i will install testdrive on virtualbox right?
[18:28] <chilicuil> juggle: no, testdrive can be installed in your hardware machine, it will launch virtualbox with the most recent ubuntu development version
[18:29] <juggle> got that now, thank you chilicuil
[18:29] <juggle> i am installing testdrive now
[18:32] <juggle> how to add existing installed iso to the testdrive ?
[18:32] <juggle> add ISO button is disabled on it
[18:33] <juggle> Sync button seams to install full iso again right ?
[18:35] <balloons> juggle, if you manually downloaded an iso and want to add it to the cache check the cache folder
[18:38] <juggle> ok i guess it will be possible with File + Open and selecting the iso
[19:28] <DanChapman> balloons, ping
[19:28] <balloons> DanChapman, pong
[19:28]  * balloons notes ping pong is fun
[19:30] <DanChapman> balloons, :-) i've added a comment to the evince bug rather than right an article here. Can you take a look for me https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/+bug/1196535
[19:33] <balloons> DanChapman, I have the answer to that actually
[19:33] <balloons> we should just include the test pdf in the branch
[19:33] <balloons> add it to the source directly and use it
[19:33] <balloons> make sense?
[19:34] <DanChapman> thats a good idea balloons !!!
[19:34] <balloons> I know we make many temp files, but I'm thinking adding the files needed to the source directly is probably the better way to go :-)
[19:34] <DanChapman> :-D
[19:34] <balloons> you live, you learn :-p
[19:34] <DanChapman> I agree
[19:36] <DanChapman> RIght well i'm calling it a day for today, but i will get them done tomorrow. Also do you want ubiquity in the production branch?
[19:40] <xnox> DanChapman: we want ubiquity tests in lp:ubiquity as that's where it's developed. unlike other projects, ubiquity is ubuntu-upstream =)
[20:21] <balloons> DanChapman, what xnox said :-) Same as with the core-apps, since we have the upstream available to us, let's push them there :-)
[20:27] <balloons> DanChapman, that said, it will most certainly be a part of the smoke testing, so if it's ready, let's get it committed and get it added in :-)
[20:51] <balloons> Letozaf_, Noskcaj evening and morning to you
[20:51] <Noskcaj> morning balloons
[20:51] <Noskcaj> i've made (slight) progress in getting a testdrive hangout.
[20:51] <balloons> i was just looking at that this morning
[20:52] <balloons> what news do you have?
[20:52] <Noskcaj> Dustin supports the idea, he just needs a time that howard  and i will be online. Andres still ignores me
[20:54] <balloons> elopio, so are we stuck waiting a week for the second part of the merge? I see the toolbar and tabs pieces went in. Where does that leave us in the meantime? Should we keep with the status quo for now?
[20:55] <balloons> Noskcaj, ahh.. well, 1 dev is all you need, so :-)
[20:55] <elopio> balloons: just the toolbar landed. The second branch is the tabs.
[20:55] <elopio> and we first have to wait for this to be packaged and released on the ppa.
[20:56] <Letozaf_> balloons, hello
[20:56] <balloons> ok, so status quo probably for another week.. :-( Kind of makes me sad but I know you'll keep hacking away making the initial version just that much better :-)
[20:57] <elopio> balloons: I can also update some existing tests. For example, the ones in the files app just use the toolbar.
[20:57] <balloons> Letozaf_, hope you've been enjoying some time away it sounds like ;-)
[20:57] <balloons> ohh.. I didn't think any were that simple :-)
[20:57] <Letozaf_> balloons, yeah, pitty holidays are ended :)
[20:57] <Letozaf_> balloons, anyway the fun is here now :)
[20:58] <elopio> and we can extend the number of custom emulators this week, so Juhapekka gets to just review.
[20:58] <elopio> there's no time lost :)
[20:58] <balloons> elopio, right you are
[21:01]  * Letozaf_ realizes it's late ... wow, see you guys tomorrow :p
[21:07] <balloons> knome, this looks neat: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylebot/oiaejidbmkiecgbjeifoejpgmdaleoha?hl=en
[21:09] <knome> balloons, i'm using both the web developer and firebug extensions for FF which pretty much both do that and more :)
[21:10] <balloons> knome, I figured.. just thought.. hmm.. a novel idea, I'm guessing knome does this and a lot more
[21:11] <knome> hehe
[21:11] <knome> why doesn't devede support multiple dvd menus :(
[22:54] <slickymaster> @balloons: Hi Nicholas, can I ask you something?
[22:54] <meetingology> slickymaster: Error: "balloons:" is not a valid command.
[22:54] <balloons> slickymaster, go for it
[22:55] <slickymaster> regarding my xfce4 panel testcase. I've been looking to your branch but to be honest I can not say if it's right or not, so I think it would be best just tom push it again
[22:57] <slickymaster> my question is: is there any thing in particular I should do? Or do I simply  push it to my branch?
[23:00] <slickymaster> balloons: I'm not sure if you saw my question
[23:06] <balloons> slickymaster, I have an xfce4panel test branch?
[23:06] <balloons> it's late here :)
[23:06] <balloons> if you want to use code from another branch you can merge it, or just branch it yourself and modify it manually
[23:07] <slickymaster> sorry, over here is almost Tuesday, but since I've been away for two weeks I'm trying to catch up on things
[23:10] <slickymaster> It's a bit confusing. I'm David and I wrote the xfce4 panel testcase that got screwed up because it got out of sync after Jackson giant nerge
[23:11] <slickymaster> and in your last post you advised me to push a new branch to merge it
[23:23] <balloons> slickymaster, ahh.. I'm pretty sure that was all cleared up
[23:23] <balloons> let's just go check shall we?
[23:24] <slickymaster> and how do we do it?
[23:24] <balloons> https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/xfce4panel
[23:24] <balloons> https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/xfce4panel/+merge/169295
[23:25] <balloons> ahh your right I rebased your branch for you
[23:25] <balloons> lol.
[23:25] <balloons> at this point if you know the changes you want to make, grab a fresh branch of the head and make the changes and re-submit the merge request
[23:25] <balloons> slickymaster, ^^
[23:26] <slickymaster> if I understand you correctly, I have to create a new branch and the just have to push my file to. Am I right?
[23:41] <slickymaster> balloons: sorry Nicholas how do I do grad a fresh branch of the head and re-submit the merge request?
[23:42] <balloons> slickymaster, there were edits made to the file made by someone other than you, so bzr wants you to review those edits
[23:43] <balloons> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-manual-tests/trunk/view/head:/testcases/packages/1562_xfce4panel%20tests
[23:43] <balloons> are your edits in there? ^^
[23:43] <balloons> so you can't just push your version as-is.. The rebased version was my attempt to take your edit's and jackon's edits and put them into one file
[23:44] <balloons> I realize this might all be really confusing to you
[23:44] <balloons> so if that's the case, the simple thing to do is pretend nothing happened in the past
[23:44] <slickymaster> no that's a prior version of it
[23:44] <balloons> grab the branch and make your edits again
[23:44] <balloons> submit for a merge
[23:44] <balloons> :-)
[23:45] <slickymaster> that's what I'm not getting. How do I grab the branch?
[23:45] <balloons>      bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
[23:46] <balloons> this is the version i did
[23:46] <balloons> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~nskaggs/ubuntu-manual-tests/xfce4panel-rebased/view/head:/testcases/packages/1562_xfce4panel%20tests
[23:46] <balloons> if that looks good, then you might be all set
[23:46] <slickymaster> and bzr status? and then bzr commit and after that I just have to,push it, tight?
[23:46] <slickymaster> right?
[23:47] <slickymaster> I think I got it. I'll push it in a few minutes to revision
[23:48] <slickymaster> balloons: thanks a lot for all your help Nicholas
[23:53] <slickymaster> balloons: It's already proposed for merge, Nicholas. Once again I thank you for all your help
[23:54] <balloons> :-)
[23:54] <balloons> excellent
[23:54] <balloons> no porblem slickymaster sorry it turned out to be a bit confusing :-)
[23:54] <balloons> I blame Jackson :-p
[23:54] <slickymaster> balloons: no problem, I got to learns something new
[23:55] <slickymaster> balloons: I'm going to finish xfce4settings testcase by the end of this week, and I'll pick up another one to to after that
[23:56] <balloons> excellent.. welcome back :-)
[23:57] <slickymaster> balloons: see you. best regards