[06:35] <Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
[10:30] <ApOgEE-> hi all
[10:30] <ApOgEE-> hi GunbladeIV
[10:30] <GunbladeIV> hi ApOgEE-
[10:30] <ApOgEE-> turn up so early?
[10:31] <GunbladeIV> yeah.. just incase if i forgot to attend the meeting
[10:31] <ApOgEE-> hi e-jat
[10:31] <e-jat> hi ..
[10:32] <e-jat> guys .. im afraid i cant join meeting this eve .. got i got another meeting .. :(
[10:32] <GunbladeIV> wow.. i thought e-jat is idle
[10:32] <GunbladeIV> erm..
[10:32] <GunbladeIV> ohw no.. then please leave some testi on both of our wiki
[10:32] <e-jat> wait . i try to leave a testi on your wiki ..
[10:33] <GunbladeIV> both ApOgEE-'s and mine
[10:33] <GunbladeIV> cuz nicholas forgot about ApOgEE-'s wiki the other day
[10:33] <ApOgEE-> Owh man, Nicholas won't be here too... he's going to S'pore if i'm not mistaken
[10:34] <ApOgEE-> e-jat, thanks
[10:44] <GunbladeIV> ApOgEE-, yup
[10:44] <GunbladeIV> none of -my members will be here if im not mistaken
[10:45] <GunbladeIV> dunno if zarul or kerbau can make it then
[10:45] <ApOgEE-> owh.. so, we will be on our own then
[10:45] <GunbladeIV> yup..
[10:45] <GunbladeIV> :(
[10:45] <GunbladeIV> pretty sad huh
[10:46] <ApOgEE-> it's okay, i'll support you and hopefully you'l support me... hehehe
[10:48] <GunbladeIV> sure.. no problem
[10:48] <GunbladeIV> i know your contribution to our community
[10:48] <GunbladeIV> hehe.. no worries..
[10:49] <e-jat> done ..
[10:49] <e-jat> check it out ..
[10:49] <GunbladeIV> e-jat, thanks a lot
[10:50] <GunbladeIV> good luck with your meeting later dude
[10:52] <ApOgEE-> e-jat, thanks
[12:03] <lifeless> hi
[12:03] <lifeless> is it time?
[12:04] <lifeless> persia: is it now?
[12:04] <ApOgEE-> hi all
[12:04] <persia> lifeless: It is now.
[12:04] <persia> Our fearless leader seems absent though :(
[12:05] <persia> Hmm.  Without amachu, TheMuso, Belutz, or zakame, I'm not sure we can reach quorum
[12:05]  * persia waves at elkbuntu
[12:06] <ApOgEE-> hi lifeless , hi persia
[12:06] <persia> ApOgEE-: Good evening.  We're a little understaffed so far, apologies for the confusion.
[12:07] <GunbladeIV> meeting has started?
[12:07] <ApOgEE-> persia, it's okay...
[12:07] <GunbladeIV> hi everyone
[12:07] <nixternal> persia: what meeting is this?
[12:07] <persia> nixternal: Asia-Oceania RMB
[12:07] <nixternal> can I go for membership? :P
[12:07] <lifeless> persia: clearly we need a tighter acronym
[12:07] <lifeless> AORMB
[12:08] <nixternal> that sounds like a weapon of mass destruction lifeless :)
[12:09] <amachu> I have to apologise, went out of power at my place
[12:09] <amachu> elkbuntu: hi
[12:09] <persia> amachu: No worries: we could hardly start without you :)
[12:09] <lifeless> elkbuntu: are thou here?
[12:09] <ApOgEE-> ;)
[12:10] <leoquant> nixternal: RMB is the name of a German electronic music band
[12:10] <amachu> persia: lifeless: thanks for backing
[12:11] <ApOgEE-> ni amachu
[12:11] <ApOgEE-> hi amachu
[12:11] <amachu> ApOgEE-: Hi
[12:12] <GunbladeIV> hello lifeless , persia , amachu , ApOgEE- and everyone else
[12:12] <persia> I've sent queries to zakame and TheMuso, but Belutz wasn't at that nick.
[12:13] <ApOgEE-> hello GunbladeIV
[12:14] <lifeless> are we quorate?
[12:16] <persia> We are confirmed three, but likely need four for quorum.
[12:17] <amachu> persia: we shall wait
[12:23] <lifeless> amachu: well, at 2200 I need to stop regardless
[12:23] <persia> I'm tempted to call a failed quorum at 11:30, if we don't have enough, and try again next week.
[12:24] <ApOgEE-> persia, owh...
[12:25] <persia> ApOgEE-: It's not that we are trying to avoid your application, it's that right now we can't, and sitting around waiting just frustrates those of us who are here, which can impact future meetings.
[12:25] <persia> \o/ We are quorate!
[12:25] <TheMuso> Sorry I'm late, got called away to deal with some family stuff.
[12:26] <ApOgEE-> hi TheMuso thank god you're here
[12:26] <ApOgEE-> ;)
[12:27] <ApOgEE-> so, shall we begin?
[12:27] <amachu__> hi
[12:29] <elkbuntu> gah
[12:29] <amachu__> elkbuntu: ha
[12:29] <persia> 5 of us.  Now we're really going.  Let's start.
[12:30] <amachu__> yes
[12:30]  * elkbuntu waits
[12:30] <ApOgEE-> persia, ok
[12:30]  * ApOgEE- is ready
[12:30] <GunbladeIV> Ok, Im good to go
[12:30]  * GunbladeIV ready
[12:30] <amachu__> ApOgEE-: GunbladeIV: Hi, We apologise for the delay..
[12:30] <amachu__> ApOgEE-: We will start with you
[12:30] <ApOgEE-> amachu__, no problem
[12:31] <GunbladeIV> no problem , as i notice that we must have quorate before it begin
[12:31] <ApOgEE-> so, where should i begin?
[12:31] <amachu__> Please go ahead introducing yourself, and yourself and contributions you have made etc.,
[12:32] <ApOgEE-> Greetings to all Board Members and fellow meeting members
[12:33] <ApOgEE-> My real name is Muhammad Fauzilkamil Bin Zainuddin and as you see, my nick is always ApOgEE-
[12:33] <lifeless> it is shorter:)
[12:34] <ApOgEE-> I'm working as Software Engineer in a small WIreless Broadband Provider company in Kuala Lumpur
[12:35] <elkbuntu> in future, can people please have these introductions pre-typed
[12:35] <TheMuso> Agreed.
[12:35] <ApOgEE-> anyway, for further readings, you can check my wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApOgEE
[12:36] <ApOgEE-> that should make it faster
[12:36] <ApOgEE-> heheh
[12:37] <ApOgEE-> I've been contributing in Ubuntu just early this year
[12:37]  * TheMuso is amused with the fact that the wiki page is written in third person. :) Nothing wrong with that of course.
[12:37] <persia> ApOgEE-: Looking at your wiki, I'm not seeing a lot of links to things, although in your testimonials, I see references to forums and website.  Can you point us to some specific things you have done?
[12:38] <amachu__> ApOgEE-: iRC support, helping in organising events, beyond that?
[12:38] <ApOgEE-> persia, actually I've been working on distributing Ubuntu through my clients
[12:39] <ApOgEE-> Apart of my fulltime work, i'm also providing technical services to customers and personals
[12:39] <ApOgEE-> so, there where I promote Ubuntu
[12:40] <amachu__> customers, personals - be specific
[12:41] <ApOgEE-> I'm also contributing in Ubuntu Malay Translation
[12:41] <ApOgEE-> check out https://launchpad.net/~apogee
[12:42] <ApOgEE-> In company where I work, we are providing wireless broadband for some Condominiums and apartments
[12:44] <ApOgEE-> since then, my customers always asking for technical support others than our internet services
[12:44] <persia> ApOgEE-: Have you brought a fanclub to the meeting?
[12:44] <ApOgEE-> sometimes, for virus problems and so on
[12:44] <GunbladeIV> glad to see nbliang here
[12:44] <GunbladeIV> hi nbliang
[12:44] <ApOgEE-> so, I'm always promoting Ubuntu to these customers
[12:44] <nbliang> GunbladeIV: hi, is it finish?
[12:45] <GunbladeIV> nope.. just started.. ApOgEE- 's turn right now
[12:45] <ApOgEE-> since then, I've been unofficial Ubuntu support for them
[12:47] <persia> In the interests of ensuring that we hear both candidates, and from the light documentation on the wiki, and small volume of translations in LP, I'm going to vote -1 at this time.  ApOgEE-: Please keep up the work, add more links to your wiki page, and come back to us soon.
[12:47] <ApOgEE-> others than that, I regularly helps Malaysian Ubuntu users in http://forums.ubuntu.com.my
[12:48] <amachu_> ApOgEE-: The launchpad page need to have more info i feel
[12:49] <ApOgEE-> and I'm now working on tranlating Ubuntu Full Circle magazine for malay language
[12:49] <nbliang> well, ApOgEE- may not have much info in the LP and wiki but he does surely active in the Ubuntu Malaysia forum
[12:49] <TheMuso> I'd have to agree with persia, but say +0. ApOgEE- it seems you are doing some great work already, but I feel your wiki page is a little light on details, and the launchpad page to me also loos a little bare.
[12:49] <TheMuso> ApOgEE-: But please keep up the great work, and consider re-applying and coming back to talk to us in the coming weeks.
[12:49] <elkbuntu> persia, im going to vote 0 too
[12:49] <amachu_> TheMuso: I feel the same
[12:49] <persia> lifeless: ?
[12:50] <lifeless> I'm +0
[12:50] <lifeless> I think the out of launchpad stuff sounds great
[12:50] <amachu_> ApOgEE-: Keep up the good work. The information and links in both wiki and launchpad aren't sufficient, I feel
[12:50] <lifeless> I'd be +1 if there were some customers here to say that apogee really made the difference
[12:51] <ApOgEE-> amachu_, i see
[12:51] <lifeless> or perhaps some stats on the UM forum activity?
[12:51] <lifeless> ApOgEE-: are there some stats on the UM forums ?
[12:51] <persia> lifeless: I could agree with that: I might also be more with some review of the work in the forums
[12:51] <ApOgEE-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine/TranslateFullCircle
[12:52] <persia> Apologies for a short end, but could we also hear from GunbladeIV?  I'm worried about the end of the meeting.
[12:52] <ApOgEE-> I'm sorry if it didn't satisfy you guys
[12:52] <GunbladeIV> should i start now?
[12:52] <ApOgEE-> ok then
[12:52] <lifeless> ApOgEE-: what we're trying to assess is sustained community contributions - you're clearly getting in and doing things.
[12:53] <lifeless> ApOgEE-: if you keep doing that you'll get +1 all around with no trouble, but right now its early days, and you're just started
[12:53] <ApOgEE-> lifeless, okay...
[12:53] <lifeless> GunbladeIV: yes please
[12:53] <GunbladeIV> Hello, Im Mohd Faizul Zulkipli from Malaysia.  I am a student at my local university on getting my first diploma for IT programming and supporter for Ubuntu and actively involved on our local community program by spreading and helping user through web forum, and irc. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gunbladeiv [wiki] and https://launchpad.net/~gunbladeiv [launchpad]
[12:54] <amachu_> ApOgEE-: Certainly, you have put efforts, and to make it out here says that. Please continue your good work. We wish to see you back soon.
[12:54] <GunbladeIV> currently I'm taking responsibility as the webmaster for http://ubuntu.com.my and http://forums.ubuntu.com.my which currently the only ubuntu malaysia local community website.
[12:55] <GunbladeIV> and yes just manage to develop the planet for Ubuntu-my communnity so that we could gather all sort of ubuntu information on a spot where malaysian could easily get help other than visiting forum
[12:55] <ApOgEE-> thanks amachu_
[12:56] <amachu_> GunbladeIV: Ubuntu user since 2000?
[12:56] <GunbladeIV> i guess it is a typo error.
[12:57] <GunbladeIV> 2005
[12:57] <GunbladeIV> sorry..
[12:58] <elkbuntu> hehe, i didnt pick that up
[12:58] <amachu_> can you elaborate more about "Ubuntu Malaysia first meetup on UiTM Shah Alam, Selangor"
[12:59] <GunbladeIV> Yeah, actually Ive been involved with the official ubuntu meetup on early 2008
[12:59] <elkbuntu> involved how?
[13:00] <GunbladeIV> i've been given task to organize and setup the facility.
[13:00] <GunbladeIV> I'm one of the commitee members for the events as I make sure the event went smooth.
[13:01] <GunbladeIV> at the end of the event we have some free discussion on Ubuntu generally, I act as one of the comittee where people could try to get help for any problem they are having with Ubuntu.  Most of the participant are students drom UiTM(university) itself
[13:02] <elkbuntu> how many have you done so far?
[13:02] <GunbladeIV> how many? meetup?
[13:03] <nbliang> so far we only have 1 official meetup, rite GunbladeIV ?
[13:03] <GunbladeIV> As I mention, that this is the first meetup.  But we are planning to do the next meetup within the end of this year
[13:03] <elkbuntu> and this already happened, or is still yet to happen?
[13:03] <ApOgEE-> yes one official meetup
[13:04] <GunbladeIV> elkbuntu, already happened
[13:05] <amachu> GunbladeIV: Please be little eloborate
[13:05] <elkbuntu> cool, how many people did you have there?
[13:06] <GunbladeIV> i have some pictures if you would like to take a look
[13:06] <GunbladeIV> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sumardi/sets/72157603969964943/
[13:06] <GunbladeIV> amachu : elaborate ?
[13:07] <lifeless> ApOgEE-: so GunbladeIV is running the my forums as webmaster ? how is he doing?
[13:07] <GunbladeIV> wb nbliang
[13:07] <ApOgEE-> lifeless, yes, he is doing great
[13:07] <persia> Last week, e-jat was reported as the webmaster.  Did this change?
[13:07] <lifeless> persia: good memory :)
[13:08] <ApOgEE-> persia, no, they both are administrators and webmasters of ubuntu.com.my
[13:08] <persia> lifeless: logs
[13:08] <GunbladeIV> nope, actually we both are webmaster, I get the task mostly from e-jat and some other members for any particular changes need to be made
[13:08] <lifeless> persia: still; to know to check.
[13:08] <amachu> GunbladeIV: explain more how you helped...
[13:08] <GunbladeIV> as I'm the most familiar with the entire forum
[13:08] <ApOgEE-> persia, FYI we do work in team
[13:09] <nbliang_> yes, we do work in team
[13:09] <nbliang_> :)
[13:09] <amachu> like how many people particiapted
[13:10] <GunbladeIV> we do have a little board members on ubuntu-my organization where e-jat and I work hand by hand to make things work.
[13:10] <amachu> the objectives of the meeting
[13:10] <ApOgEE-> even if my name is not in the admin/webmaster of the forum, we support each other to help ubuntu users from malaysia solving their problems
[13:10] <GunbladeIV> i see.
[13:10] <amachu> and more..
[13:11] <nbliang_> ok guys, got to go... catching my plane back home
[13:11] <amachu> apart from being assigned the roles, what more have you contributed?
[13:11] <GunbladeIV> amachu: there are 150-200 people participate, where in the morning session we have some talk generally based on Ubuntu/debian system on how to use Ubuntu on daily basis.  There are several IT specialist such as kaeru, sharuzzaman who gave speech
[13:12] <GunbladeIV> I've been making some small classes to my lecturer last semester on how to setup ubuntu as my lecturer mostly familiar with windows environment
[13:13] <TheMuso> I don't know about the other council members, but I'd say we take a vote at this point.
[13:13] <GunbladeIV> I've been taking Ubuntu on the Opensource syllibus on my University to replace mandriva
[13:13] <GunbladeIV> Ok
[13:14] <amachu> the wiki should have reflected all these and more I feel
[13:14] <ApOgEE-> actually, as I'm always in malaysian team, I can verify that GunbladeIV have done more works on getting the website up and running. those sites are http://ubuntu.com.my http://forums.ubuntu.com.my http://planet.ubuntu.com.my
[13:14] <elkbuntu> TheMuso, agreed. GunbladeIV, while i think you're doing good things, im not seeing any sustainment. 0 from me.
[13:14] <persia> I always like to hear from fanclub, if anyone is around.
[13:14] <lifeless> well nbliang was fanvlubbing
[13:14] <lifeless> and ApOgEE-
[13:15] <GunbladeIV> :)
[13:15] <persia> OK.  If that was the set, I've seen them all :)
[13:15] <ApOgEE-> yes
[13:15] <GunbladeIV> up to the board members now :)
[13:15] <GunbladeIV> sorry for my bad english
[13:15] <GunbladeIV> done~
[13:15] <persia> GunbladeIV: I'm going to agree with elkbuntu.  Everything you've described looks excellent, but it's not been sustained over a period of time.  +0.  With more time doing the same things, you're exceedingly likely to be approved.
[13:15] <amachu> GunbladeIV: would like to see more from you before giving +1
[13:16] <lifeless> I'm +0 again - good current effort, but needs a bit more time to cook
[13:16] <TheMuso> Agreed once again, +0 from me.
[13:16] <TheMuso> My thoughts have already been echoed by the other coouncil members.
[13:16] <TheMuso> council
[13:16] <ApOgEE-> I hope I can learn more from all of you
[13:17] <ApOgEE-> ;)
[13:17] <GunbladeIV> Okay, I will be here again in the near future guys. Hope to have a good advise before we end?
[13:17] <elkbuntu> ApOgEE-, that's why we like to see sustainment. it means you've had time to learn :)
[13:17] <elkbuntu> there is not a single member who did not learn heaps from their journey to membership.
[13:19] <ApOgEE-> elkbuntu, read that... thanks
[13:20] <GunbladeIV> thanks guys for your time.
[13:20] <lifeless> GunbladeIV: my advise is to keep contributing, perhaps blog or otherwise note down the things you do; that provides us with good insight into your contributions
[13:20] <ApOgEE-> thanks for your time
[13:20] <lifeless> GunbladeIV: in this member ship board we're looking for community contributions rather than code (which the MOTU board looks for)
[13:21] <lifeless> GunbladeIV: so the sorts of things you're doing are all great; just need to see some more duration/weight behind them
[13:22] <ApOgEE-> if you would like to read my humble blog, feel free to visit http://coderstalk.blogspot.com
[13:22] <GunbladeIV> lifeless, Ok, i notice that. well I will be here again in the near future for sure.  I keep update my contribution as re enter my University in 8 days from now.
[13:23] <lifeless> GunbladeIV: that sounds like a great plan
[13:23] <ApOgEE-> yeah, mee too
[13:23] <GunbladeIV> lifeless, yup, got plan too. I'll update it on my blog and wiki for sure
[13:24] <GunbladeIV> And the important thing is to change the 2000 typo error .. LOL
[13:24] <ApOgEE-> actually I've planned to contribute on ubuntu-motu, i'll update my journey on it then
[13:26] <TheMuso> Ok if thats everyone, I think we can call this meeting adjourned.
[13:26] <ApOgEE-> thank you very much for your time
[13:28] <ApOgEE-> thanks TheMuso, amachu, lifeless, persia, elkbuntu
[13:28] <ApOgEE-> thanks GunbladeIV
[13:28] <lifeless> TheMuso: ack.
[13:28] <ApOgEE-> ;)
[13:28] <lifeless> np ApOgEE-, GunbladeIV see you another time
[13:28] <ApOgEE-> thanks everyone
[13:28] <lifeless> amachu___: we're calling it before you use up the entire allowed nickname width
[13:28] <amachu___> ApOgEE-: GunbladeIV : yes
[13:28] <TheMuso> lifeless: heh
[13:29] <amachu___> lifeless: I need to have two connection
[13:29] <lifeless> amachu___: one for the left hand, one for the right?
[13:29] <amachu___> lifeless: :-)
[13:29] <TheMuso> lol
[13:29] <amachu___> the ISP is dis-continuous, I should not say this next week
[13:30] <amachu___> i am saying this for the second continuous time
[13:30] <amachu___> well, Thank you all for particiapting
[13:30] <GunbladeIV> thanks for the time : lifeless , amachu , elkbuntu , TheMuso and persia
[13:31] <amachu___> GunbladeIV: ApOgEE- : It is good to see all of you work as team
[13:32] <amachu___> Please continue your good work and make Ubuntu rock at Malaysia
[13:32] <GunbladeIV> yeah! i've been eager to see ubuntu-my become offical loco team
[13:32] <elkbuntu> you guys need to work with the other teams in the region
[13:33] <ApOgEE-> thanks amachu___ we are already rockin in Malaysia
[13:33] <GunbladeIV> working on it. dont worry amachu___
[13:33] <GunbladeIV> elkbuntu, yeah. we've been talking with some ubuntu-id members like udienz and belutz for the join venture events
[13:34] <elkbuntu> i mentioned last week that teams like singapore could use a helping hand too :)
[13:34] <GunbladeIV> :) I will try to discuss with em
[13:35] <GunbladeIV> it just we need to increase the members of -my community on the first hand and educate more users
[13:36] <GunbladeIV> elkbuntu, you from singapore ?
[13:36] <elkbuntu> GunbladeIV, no unfortunately
[13:37] <ApOgEE-> so, elkbuntu you've know us, so, can i know a bit about you then?
[13:37] <GunbladeIV> :D i thought you are one of the ubuntu-sg member
[13:37] <amachu> :-)
[13:38]  * Hobbsee suggests looking at people's wiki pages, if you're looking for information about them.
[13:38] <elkbuntu> ApOgEE-, i am no secret
[13:38] <elkbuntu> https://launchpad.net/~melissa
[13:39] <amachu> persia: TheMuso : lifeless : elkbuntu : Thank you all.
[13:39] <TheMuso> Thanks folks.
[13:41] <GunbladeIV> nice
[13:43] <ApOgEE-> elkbuntu, hopefully your story will inspire me
[13:44] <GunbladeIV> elkbuntu, thanks for spending little time on advising and tips
[13:46] <ApOgEE-> how about you persia ? are you persian anyway?
[13:48] <persia> ApOgEE-: Nope.  See launchpad.net/~persia and links therefrom
[13:49] <amachu> see you back..
[13:49] <amachu> bye
[13:49] <amachu> :-)
[13:49] <GunbladeIV> persia, japan?
[13:50] <persia> GunbladeIV: Yes.
[13:51] <GunbladeIV> great.
[13:51] <GunbladeIV> i need to catch up my dinner. starve already. brb
[13:52] <ApOgEE-> persia, the company where i work use the same name
[13:52] <ApOgEE-> www.persiasys.com
[13:52] <ApOgEE-> i'm working with persian boss hehe
[13:52] <ApOgEE-> GunbladeIV, me too
[13:53]  * ApOgEE- going for dinner
[14:28]  * GunbladeIV signing off - bye
[15:21] <dholbach> @schedule
[15:59] <mathiaz> hello !
[16:00] <sommer> yo
[16:01] <nijaba> o/
[16:01] <nxvl> \o/
[16:01] <Koon> \o
[16:01] <mathiaz> \/o\
[16:02] <nxvl>  /o\
[16:02] <ScottK> Hello.
[16:02] <persia> This is not a game of Life.
[16:02] <mathiaz> all right - let's get started
[16:02] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:03] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:04] <mathiaz> Last meeting logs are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080624
[16:04]  * nealmcb cheers for mootbot :)
[16:04] <mathiaz> I've followed up on ubuntu-devel about MIR for Recommends
[16:05] <mathiaz> there has been some discussion since then
[16:05] <ScottK> It seems pretty clear now.
[16:05] <NeilW> What's MIR
[16:05] <mathiaz> ScottK: so the outcome is that Recommends should either be MIRed or dropped Suggests
[16:05] <ScottK> Main Inclusion Report.
[16:05] <ScottK> NeilW: It's the process for getting stuff moved from Universe to Main.
[16:05] <mathiaz> ScottK: dropped to Suggests, correct ?
[16:06] <NeilW> ScottK: Ta
[16:06] <ScottK> I think policy defines what should be Recommeds/Suggests.
[16:06] <mathiaz> NeilW: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionProcess
[16:06] <ScottK> But yes, Recommends should get promoted.
[16:07] <ScottK> It would be very handy if someone could whip up a script to check for missing recommends in Main.
[16:07] <nxvl> we should revert the recomeds by default, it's a nightmare
[16:07] <mathiaz> ScottK: I think that will come out of the component mismatch list
[16:07] <nxvl> :D
[16:08] <nijaba> ScottK: I think germinate should take care of that, yes
[16:08] <ScottK> mathiaz: But not until germinate is updated.  It'd be nice to get a head start.
[16:08] <mathiaz> ScottK: IIRC cjwatson is adding support for recommends to germinate
[16:08] <ScottK> Yes, but when?
[16:08] <cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/24240/ work in progress, just needs to be tested
[16:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/24240/ work in progress, just needs to be tested
[16:09] <ScottK> Ah.  Cool.
[16:09] <cjwatson> feel free to run that locally and look at the differences
[16:09] <nxvl> ScottK: in that case better to ping cjwatson and help him that wrote a new one and duplicate efforts
[16:10] <ScottK> Agreed.
[16:10] <mathiaz> allright - how hard do you think it is to write up a MIR ?
[16:10] <ScottK> I didn't know it was so close.
[16:10] <mathiaz> Is it something that should be given to new contributors ?
[16:10] <ScottK> mathiaz: Not very.  It's a bit tedious, but the template lays out the steps.
[16:10] <ScottK> mathiaz: Not new, but it's not just for developers.
[16:11] <mathiaz> ScottK: right - I don't think it requires a in-depth knowledge of packaging
[16:11] <ScottK> sommer did his first one over the weekend and I had only very minor comments.
[16:11] <mathiaz> right - so creating a list of MIR related to the ubuntu-server team could be a good option
[16:11] <ScottK> There are some FHS and packaging related questions.
[16:11] <ScottK> Yes.
[16:11] <cjwatson> (it's a while since I wrote the above patch; I'm slightly confused by some of it in retrospect, so I might fiddle with it some more)
[16:11] <mathiaz> and promote it as tasks for getting involved in the team
[16:12] <cjwatson> I'd rather we weren't flooded by MIRs from all and sundry, the way we're flooded by specifications
[16:12] <cjwatson> while it isn't technically restricted to developers, it should not be advertised as something that users or even bug triagers should do
[16:12] <ScottK> mathiaz: I think any MIR should be reviewed by experienced people before it gets to ubuntu-mir.
[16:12] <Koon> mathiaz: the "Standards Compliance" questions are the difficult ones, the others are quite straightforward
[16:13] <ScottK> mathiaz: I'd suggest as long as it's clear that non-developers should get them reviewed, it's good.  Even if someone can do part of a MIR it's a help.
[16:13] <mathiaz> cjwatson: re flooded - the  mir will have to be written anyway - are you more concerned about the quality of the report ?
[16:14] <nxvl> cjwatson: do you think we can work on the schema that contributor do the work, then server team reviews it and then it jumps to -mir team?
[16:14] <cjwatson> mathiaz: mistaken premise detected: "the MIR will have to be written anyway" - I'm talking about being flooded by ones that *aren't* necessary
[16:14] <cjwatson> nxvl: yes
[16:14] <ScottK> nxvl: I think you are a prime candidate for doing MIR.
[16:15] <nxvl> ScottK: if augeas is accepted today i will
[16:15] <ScottK> I've got plenty of others you can practice on.
[16:15] <nxvl> ScottK: until it still gets faling, i don't have much time
[16:15] <mathiaz> cjwatson: right - so once the list of component mismatch includes recommends, it should first be reviewed by a dev to figure out which should have MIR written for
[16:15] <cjwatson> yes
[16:16] <ScottK> We also have specs that are driving MIR requirements.
[16:16] <cjwatson> inexperienced people definitely shouldn't be pointed to the full list, since it often includes items that represent bugs in dependencies
[16:16]  * mathiaz nods
[16:16] <nxvl> yes
[16:17] <nxvl> so, if we want more people getting involved in this, we should review they work before it goes to -mir team
[16:17] <mathiaz> but once we have a list of packages that have to be MIRed, then we can ask people to write up the MIR and get them reviewed by a dev before subscribing ubuntu-mir
[16:18] <nxvl> or try to work on a 101 basis, that a member of the team suscribes to a MIR and always review it
[16:18] <ScottK> We have to know it exists first.
[16:19] <nxvl> well
[16:19] <nxvl> yes
[16:19] <soren> o/
[16:19] <mathiaz> ok - so we sort of have a plan for recommends and MIRs
[16:19] <nxvl> but i think that mathiaz mean
[16:19] <nxvl> to write a post saying "if you want to get involved take a llok at this MIRs"
[16:19] <nxvl> mathiaz: didn't you?
[16:19] <mathiaz> nxvl: yes that was my plan
[16:20] <mathiaz> I'll refine the process before writting up the post
[16:20] <nxvl> so i was thinking about that
[16:20] <mathiaz> and there needs to be some work done by a dev before that
[16:20] <nxvl> so i was thinking on mathiaz writing "here is a list of MIRs you can work on, if you want please contact us for guidance"
[16:20] <ScottK> For the ones that are spec'ed the pre-work is already done.
[16:21] <mathiaz> nxvl: yes - that's the last step of the plan
[16:21] <nxvl> :D
[16:21] <mathiaz> all right - let's move on
[16:22] <nxvl> we need to make a list of volunteers who want to review those MIRs also
[16:22] <mathiaz> that's all I have with regard to last meeting minutes
[16:23] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Spec status
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status
[16:23] <ScottK> For my specs, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/amavisd-dkim is doing quite well.  All the MIRs are done and all but one got approved by doko.  I've addressed his comments on the one.
[16:23] <ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-flavors is deferred.  Too much work in to little time.
[16:23] <ScottK> Finally, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main has a stack of MIR that need to be written.  Volunteers wanted.
[16:24] <ScottK> sommer: Thanks for the one you did.
[16:24] <sommer> np, should have time this week for some more
[16:24] <ScottK> If anyone wants mentoring on doing MIR, I'll do if for ones in that spec.
[16:24] <lukehasnoname> server flavors: Getting bumped to intrepid+1?
[16:24] <ScottK> Anyone else working on specs?
[16:24] <mathiaz> ScottK: did you review sommer MIR ?
[16:25] <ScottK> lukehasnoname: Yes, unless someone decides to sponsor me a bunch of time to do it.  I don't have the free time to get it for Intrepid.
[16:25] <ScottK> mathiaz: I did and only had some small comments.
[16:25] <nxvl> o/
[16:25] <mathiaz> ScottK: great - would you consider being the reviewer for all the other MIR related to clamav-spamassassing-in-main spec ?
[16:25] <ScottK> He checked with me before subscribing ubuntu-mir just as we've discussed today people should do.
[16:25] <ScottK> mathiaz: Yes.
[16:26] <nxvl> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-centralized-services-administrator
[16:26] <ScottK> Note that the spec is marked mentoring offerred by me.
[16:26] <mathiaz> ScottK: ok
[16:26] <ScottK> lukehasnoname: Did you get my answer to your question.
[16:26] <mathiaz> I'm going to update the Roadmap with links to the current specs
[16:26] <ScottK> nxvl: How is it going?
[16:26] <lukehasnoname> ScottK: Yes
[16:26] <mathiaz> So that we can review them during this meeting
[16:26] <nxvl> ScottK: i think i have augeas done
[16:27] <nxvl> the mayor bug has been already fixed
[16:27] <nxvl> and i've got my 1st ack
[16:27] <ScottK> From who?
[16:27] <mathiaz> [ACTION]: ScottK to be the reviewer for MIR related to clamav-spamassassin-in-main
[16:27] <MootBot> ACTION received: : ScottK to be the reviewer for MIR related to clamav-spamassassin-in-main
[16:27] <nxvl> but some things have just been comment, but i haven't check them
[16:27] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to update the ServerTeam roadmap with the list of intrepid specs.
[16:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to update the ServerTeam roadmap with the list of intrepid specs.
[16:27] <nxvl> they are just minor stuff that i think are good
[16:28] <nealmcb> ScottK: do we need a way to support longer term specs?  perhaps finish discussion and start the flavors one soon for intrepid+2?  Otherwise the answer may always bee "too much work in too little time"... perhaps some of the other related activities can bite off pieces of it?
[16:29] <ScottK> nealmcb: Agreed.  I plan to not forget about it.
[16:29] <mathiaz> As reminded wrt to the release schedule, the deadline to get specs into intrepid is FeatureFreeze, scheduled for August 28th
[16:30] <nealmcb> s/+2/+1....
[16:30] <nxvl> also for ucsa
[16:30] <ScottK> nxvl: norsetto's comments are good ones.
[16:30] <mathiaz> By that time, new features should be in intrepid and be working somehow
[16:30] <nxvl> i don't will have time to finish it for intrepid
[16:30] <nxvl> also in Prague we point it for next LTS
[16:31] <nxvl> ScottK: yes, i will review them after the meeting, i'm not sure about the licenses thing
[16:32] <mathiaz> all right -anything else related to specs ?
[16:32] <ScottK> nxvl: I think your spec is ambitious enough that aiming it two years out was a smart move.
[16:32] <nealmcb> I still haven't looked at it closely, but wonder if getting some frontend (eBox?) to use augeas by Intrepid would be a big step forward
[16:32] <nxvl> ScottK: yes, augeas has do a lot of work for me, and i won't use all that time, but yes
[16:33] <ScottK> IIRC nxvl discussed that with ebox.
[16:33] <mathiaz> nealmcb: that's quit ambitious - the ebox dev are looking into that
[16:33] <nxvl> yes
[16:33] <nxvl> mathiaz and me talked to the eBox developers
[16:33] <nealmcb> but e.g. if folks interested in the admin area were to help ebox, that might move everyone's agenda forward
[16:33] <nxvl> and augeas has some stoppers for it
[16:34] <nxvl> one of them being it lacks on a LOT of lenses
[16:34] <nxvl> so it doesn't support much services
[16:34] <nxvl> <- working on it
[16:34] <nxvl> and the other one is the perl support
[16:34] <nealmcb> should we have a spec for augeas for intrepid?
[16:34] <nxvl> but yesterday was released the perl binding, so it will be tested and used in some days
[16:34] <nijaba> nxvl: that one thing other can help on, right?
[16:35] <ScottK> nealmcb: We don't need to spec getting a package added to Universe.
[16:35] <ScottK> I think Main would be very premature for it.
[16:35] <nxvl> nijaba: writing lenses? yes of course
[16:35] <mathiaz> nealmcb: I think that nxvl is doing a good job
[16:35] <nxvl> nijaba: i'm waiting for augeas to reach the archives to make a call for lensers
[16:35] <mathiaz> nealmcb: we don't need to have spec written for everything
[16:35] <nijaba> nxvl: great
[16:35] <nealmcb> specs are about setting direction also and documenting it in a way that more casual observers can see and comment or help
[16:35] <nxvl> nijaba: they are not hard to write, and a new contributor is going to be able to do it
[16:35] <RoAkSoAx> nxvl, like me?? lol
[16:36] <mathiaz> nxvl: I think that once augeas is in the archive, we can think about the next step
[16:36] <mathiaz> nxvl: such as writing lenses
[16:36] <ScottK> nealmcb: I think that augeaus is an interesting idea, but it would be premature for Ubuntu to put an official stamp of approval on it.
[16:36] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: yes, that will be your homework :D
[16:36] <mathiaz> nxvl: let's focus first on getting augeas uploaded in the archive
[16:36] <nxvl> mathiaz: yes, that's why i haven't make the call for lensers already
[16:37] <soren> Is anything in particular blocking it right now?
[16:37] <mathiaz> and start to play with it and see what can be done with it
[16:37] <nxvl> soren: augeas you mean? i fixed the blocker 2 hours ago
[16:37] <nxvl> (finally!)
[16:38] <soren> The rpath thing?
[16:38] <nxvl> yep
[16:39] <soren> Ok, cool.
[16:39] <nxvl> i have had nightmares with rpath and autotools for the last 2 weeks
[16:39] <foolano> nxvl: i'll take care of creating the perl bindings for augeas in order to start playing with it in eBox
[16:39] <nxvl> foolano: i have just fwd a mail to the ebox-devel list
[16:40] <nxvl> foolano: there is a perl binding for augeas, released yesterday, better take a look at it and help on it's development
[16:40] <mathiaz> allright - let's move on
[16:40] <foolano> nxvl: oh that's cool
[16:40] <ScottK> Any other specs people are working on?
[16:41] <soren> VM builder stuff.
[16:41] <ScottK> How's it going?
[16:42] <soren> I'm rewriting the whole thing in Python to make it easier to use from other applications.
[16:42] <mathiaz> soren: would you consider doing a blog post about it ?
[16:42] <nealmcb> !
[16:42] <nijaba> soren: do you need help or should we let you work on it for the time beig?
[16:42]  * lukehasnoname concurs with nealmcb
[16:42] <nijaba> being, even
[16:42] <soren> Pretty well considering.. It currently bootstraps a kvm hardy guest just fine. I'm still working some stuff out about the structure, bu pretty soon it should be ready for use and peopel can start writing plugins.
[16:43] <soren> mathiaz: Already in the works :)
[16:43] <nealmcb> that is the same rationale I had in mind - sweet
[16:43] <soren> nijaba: I'll let you know. Very soon now. :)
[16:43]  * nijaba can't wait
[16:43] <nijaba> soren: is it ready yet?
[16:43] <soren> nijaba: It works.
[16:43] <lukehasnoname> is vm builder a spec?
[16:43] <lukehasnoname> where can I keep updated about it?
[16:44] <soren> nijaba: ...but it's not complete compared to the old vm-builder.
[16:44] <nealmcb> lukehasnoname: not just a spec - a whole religion, with a creation myth etc
[16:44] <soren> nijaba: At all.
[16:44] <nxvl> what we will need are documenters for vm builder
[16:44] <soren> That too.
[16:44] <nxvl> cause soren is a good developer, but lazy on documentation
[16:44] <nijaba> soren: yep, I looked at your first upload
[16:44] <nxvl> soren: didn't you?
[16:44] <mathiaz> soren: especially that you mentionned plugins ...
[16:44] <soren> nxvl: I'm actually documenting stuff this time :)
[16:45] <mathiaz> soren: anyway - it seems that we should wait for your first code drop
[16:45] <soren> mathiaz: The first code drop is on launchpad already.
[16:45] <nxvl> \o/
[16:45] <mathiaz> soren: and then we can start poking at it
[16:45] <nijaba> mathiaz: it is, indeed
[16:45]  * nxvl waves on soren
[16:45] <mathiaz> soren: right - but is it ready for other's consumption ?
[16:45] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VMBuilderSpec
[16:45] <nxvl> * evoryone start downloading
[16:46] <mathiaz> soren: ^^ that's my point
[16:46] <mathiaz> soren: if it's not ready and you'll only get flooded by bugs that you know of
[16:46] <mathiaz> soren: there isn't much to gain to ask others for testing
[16:46] <soren> mathiaz: I wouldn't recommend submitting patches right now, as things are still getting moved around a lot.
[16:47] <soren> mathiaz: ...but if people are curious, or want to give ffedback on the design, that's cool.
[16:47] <mathiaz> soren: so this is alpha code - expect things to break and not work
[16:47] <nijaba> soren: so we wait until it is "structure" complete, and then start breaking everything ;)
[16:47] <soren> Oh, yes. Very much.
[16:48] <nxvl> i don't find it on LP
[16:48] <lukehasnoname> where is it on launchpad?
[16:48] <lukehasnoname> nxvl: heh
[16:48] <soren> Under ubuntu-jeos somewhere. Hang on.
[16:48] <nxvl> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-virt/ubuntu-jeos/python-rewrite
[16:48] <nxvl> this one?
[16:49] <soren> Yup
[16:49] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on now
[16:49] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server survey status
[16:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server survey status
[16:49] <mathiaz> owh asked me about an update on the server survey
[16:50] <nijaba> so as I am in london today and tomorrow
[16:50] <mathiaz> nijaba: any news on this front ?
[16:50] <nijaba> I just talked with elmo about it
[16:50] <nijaba> he now has found some hw for it
[16:50] <nijaba> and should set it up real soon now
[16:50]  * nijaba waiting on this...
[16:50] <lukehasnoname> server survey: Talkin about that goofy german one, or an Ubuntu sponsored one?
[16:51] <nxvl> lukehasnoname: goofy german one?
[16:51] <nijaba> what goofy german one?
[16:51] <nxvl> lukehasnoname: we try not to talk about people that way
[16:51] <nxvl> please don't
[16:51] <nijaba> lukehasnoname: we are talking about a survey that we developped 3 mo ago
[16:52] <nxvl> or more
[16:52] <nxvl> :P
[16:52] <nijaba> but have not published yet
[16:52] <lukehasnoname> nxvl: the survey was goofy, not the germans. Anyway, there was an odd link in the server ML
[16:52] <lukehasnoname> nevermind, that's obviously not what we're talking about
[16:52] <soren> lukehasnoname: It's called "tact". Look it up.
[16:53] <nxvl> oh! ok
[16:53] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so we're waiting on deployment
[16:53] <nxvl> sorry about that
[16:53] <nxvl> :P
[16:53] <nijaba> mathiaz: yep
[16:53] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion.
[16:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion.
[16:53] <lukehasnoname> nxvl: Thank YOU for understanding.
[16:53] <soren> I mean... The survey is not called "tact".
[16:53] <mathiaz> anyone wants to add anything ?
[16:53] <lukehasnoname> Has anyone had personal experience with NetDirector?
[16:53] <nijaba> also, what would you say if some analyst firm joined the survey?
[16:53] <nxvl> well
[16:53]  * ogra wants to add beer in lexington
[16:54] <nxvl> i wanted to talk about it
[16:54] <ogra> (lots of it)
[16:54] <nxvl> lukehasnoname: i wont
[16:54] <mathiaz> ogra: we'll get to that point soon
[16:54] <ogra> heh
[16:54] <soren> ogra: I think beer is implied in sprinting.
[16:54] <nxvl> it's exactly what i talked in Prague i don't want
[16:54] <soren> Otherwise you're doing it wrong.
[16:54] <nealmcb> what sprint in lexington?
[16:54] <nxvl> just another tool that make me open more ports
[16:55] <nijaba> soren: is diet coke ok for sprinting?
[16:55] <lukehasnoname> nxvl: I believe the #openbsd channel is that way ---->
[16:55] <soren> nijaba: Add some rum, andyou're good.
[16:55] <nijaba> soren: good, I'll do that :)
[16:55] <nxvl> lukehasnoname: ?
[16:55]  * nealmcb . o O ("Open Discussion"  you got it!)
[16:56] <mathiaz> so it seems that these topics are not really related to the server team
[16:56] <mathiaz> so I'll close the meeting with the last topic
[16:56] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
[16:56] <mathiaz> Agree on next meeting date and time.
[16:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[16:56] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[16:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[16:56] <mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ?
[16:56] <soren> wfm
[16:56]  * nijaba repeats: what would you say if some analyst firm joined the survey?
[16:57] <nxvl> yes
[16:57] <soren> nijaba: I'm not sure I know what that means?
[16:57] <mathiaz> nijaba: what would they do ?
[16:57] <nxvl> some topics get lost thanks to ogra :D
[16:57] <nealmcb> who is going to oscon?  Besides the folks I see on the program :)
[16:57] <nijaba> endorse it, get to use the raw results
[16:57] <nijaba> (anonymous)
[16:57] <nijaba> marketing is suggesting it
[16:57] <mathiaz> nijaba: endorse -> wider coverage ?
[16:57] <soren> The raw results are not going to be public?
[16:57] <nijaba> mathiaz: yep...
[16:58] <nijaba> soren: yes, but only what we choose to present, not the actual individual answers
[16:58] <soren> Hm. Ok.
[16:58] <mathiaz> nijaba: I don't have a problem if they can get us more people to take the survey
[16:59] <mathiaz> nijaba: as long as there isn't any restrictions on the usage of the results
[16:59] <nealmcb> does the server team get to see the raw results?
[16:59] <mathiaz> nijaba: ie anyone could ask for the raw results and do whatever they want with it
[16:59] <nijaba> mathiaz: there will not be.  it IS a community survey, I have made that clear
[16:59] <sommer> nijaba: seems like a good idea to me
[16:59] <nijaba> the server team, yes
[17:00] <mathiaz> @schedule
[17:00] <lukehasnoname> Goodbye, gentlemen.
[17:00] <mathiaz> nijaba: well - that seems a reasonable idea then
[17:01] <nijaba> ok, so I'll transmit to marketing, see what they come up with.  thanks
[17:01] <mathiaz> nijaba: just making clear that the results are "GPLed"
[17:02] <nealmcb> still seems a bit unclear to me - is raw being used in two different ways?
[17:03] <nijaba> raw: individual answers (the survey database) is what I call the raw data
[17:03] <nijaba> this should not be made public
[17:03] <mathiaz> nijaba: for privacy reason
[17:03] <nijaba> as it would be against the privacy statement
[17:03] <mathiaz> nijaba: but what about anonymising the results ?
[17:04] <nijaba> the graph, or whatever analysis of the data we produce: this WILL be public
[17:04] <nealmcb> correlations of answers are often of great interest, and using translucent database techniques can be useful, but still tricky
[17:04] <nijaba> mathiaz: even that is very dangerous.  I would be ok for anonymized data to be used within our team
[17:05] <nealmcb> mathiaz: right - anonymising == translucency
[17:05] <nijaba> but publishing them can lead to other issues
[17:05] <ScottK> They critical thing is to make sure however it is used is clearly disclosed in advance.
[17:05] <ScottK> They/The
[17:06]  * nealmcb nods
[17:06] <mathiaz> nijaba: so would you like anyone to make their own intrepretation of the survey results ?
[17:06] <nijaba> mathiaz: outside of our team, I would not
[17:06] <mathiaz> nijaba: or would you stop at releasing the data analysis but restrict access to the raw data to ubuntu-server members ?
[17:07] <nijaba> mathiaz: exactly
[17:07] <mathiaz> nijaba: is being part of ubuntu-server team LP enough to get  access to the raw data ?
[17:07] <nijaba> mathiaz: I would say so, what other criteria would you add?
[17:08] <mathiaz> nijaba: I don't know - I'm just trying to figure out which criteria should be used
[17:08] <mathiaz> nijaba: so that we're clear upfront
[17:08] <mathiaz> nijaba: FYI being part of ubuntu-server LP requires being subscribed to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>- that's all.
[17:09] <ScottK> I'd like to see signing code of conduct as a minimum requirement.
[17:09] <nealmcb> Would those "raw" results be anonymized?  I would think that no one without some real need to know should be able to dig for ip addrs etc
[17:09] <nijaba> mathiaz: isn't there an approval process?
[17:09] <mathiaz> nijaba: IOW, only a subscribtion to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is needed to get access to the raw data of the survey
[17:10] <mathiaz> nijaba: that's the only approval process that I make
[17:10] <nijaba> nealmcb: of course we are talking about anonimized raw data
[17:10] <mathiaz> nijaba: that's why I ask if that's enough to get access to the raw data
[17:10] <nijaba> mathiaz: ok, good to know
[17:11] <mathiaz> nijaba: I'd add that being an ubuntu member would raise the barrier a little bit
[17:11] <nealmcb> nijaba: good.
[17:11] <nijaba> mathiaz: good idea
[17:11] <mathiaz> nijaba: at least people should be involved in the ubuntu community
[17:11] <nijaba> mathiaz: I fully agree
[17:13] <mathiaz> ok - so access to anonimized raw data will be given to members of the ubuntu-server team and ubuntumembers team.
[17:14] <nijaba> (intersection of the 2, right)
[17:14] <nijaba> ?
[17:14] <mathiaz> hm - yes - I need to rephrase that
[17:14] <nealmcb> and maybe a sponsor/analysis company?
[17:14] <mathiaz> ok - so access to anonimized raw data will be given to members of both the ubuntu-server team and ubuntumembers team in LP.
[17:15] <nijaba> mathiaz: yep, sounds good
[17:15] <nealmcb> ...to the intersection of the two teams...
[17:15] <nealmcb> (?)
[17:16] <mathiaz> nijaba: if we can get a data analysis team onboard, that's ok too
[17:16] <nijaba> ss to anonimized raw data will be given to members of both the ubuntu-server team and ubuntumembers team in LP (intersection of the 2 teams) and eventual analyst firm choosing to join the survey before publication.
[17:16] <mathiaz> nijaba: in exchange of broader coverage they get access to the anonymised raw data
[17:18] <nealmcb> just one analyst firm that we choose based on some criteria?  or anyone who helps?
[17:19] <nijaba> nealmcb: if we get one, that we be good AND enough
[17:19]  * nealmcb nods
[17:19] <mathiaz> allright - seems good to me
[17:19]  * nijaba nods
[17:20] <mathiaz> so for the next meeting
[17:20] <mathiaz> same time, same place, next week ?
[17:20] <nijaba> good for me
[17:20] <sommer> sure
[17:23] <mathiaz> great - so see ya all next week, same time, same place
[17:23] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:23] <sommer> thanks mathiaz, later all
[17:23] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:24.
[17:23] <nijaba> thanks mathiaz
[18:04] <popey> @schedule
[21:44] <Salane> I assume this is where the CC meeting will be?
[21:46] <Salane> Hello?
[21:49] <Technoviking> Salane: yes in 10 minutes
[21:49] <Salane> Ok just making sure.
[21:59] <mako> greetings everyone
[21:59] <Salane> Hello
[21:59] <Technoviking> hey Mako
[21:59] <Technoviking> no one else yet
[22:03] <sabdfl> evening all
[22:03] <Salane> Hello Mark
[22:03] <Technoviking> hello Mark
[22:03] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[22:04] <sabdfl> do we have a quorum?
[22:04] <sabdfl> Technoviking: just you and I? burgundavia?
[22:04] <Technoviking> just Mako is here
[22:05] <Salane> How many constitutes a quorum?
[22:05] <sabdfl> i think three of us
[22:05] <sabdfl> mako: aaround?
[22:05] <mako> yes
[22:05] <mako> just got ice cream :)
[22:05] <sabdfl> lucky man, hopefully you have sunshine to match :-)
[22:06] <sabdfl> mdke put the LP lists bullet on the agenda, but can't make it now
[22:06] <mako> i do. i'll be doing this cc meeting from under a tree in harvard yard :)
[22:06] <Salane> It is sunny in Kansas :D
[22:07] <sabdfl> mako: stealth invasion from MIT?
[22:07] <sabdfl> any comments on mdke's suggestions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk ? re lists
[22:08] <sabdfl> going? going?
[22:09] <Salane> Sounds like a great idea
[22:09] <Technoviking> sabdfl: mdke suggestion are fine with me
[22:09] <sabdfl> mako?
[22:11] <mako> sorry, was reading
[22:11] <mako> it looks great
[22:11] <sabdfl> ok, i will mail mdke's text to LP, jono, elmo et al
[22:11] <sabdfl> LP and jono between them should be able to execute on that
[22:11] <sabdfl> any other ideas?
[22:13] <Technoviking> none here
[22:13] <sabdfl> ok
[22:13] <sabdfl> sent
[22:13] <sabdfl> next
[22:13] <mako> right
[22:14] <mako> cool, so i remember this from the last time it was brought up
[22:15] <sabdfl> i mailed jane about it (silbs, has helped with legal details on other loco matters)
[22:16] <mako> right, this seems much more threshed out that it was last time
[22:16] <sabdfl> jane was convinced this is a rabbithole
[22:16] <Salane> So they are wanting what amounts to a different type of loco?
[22:17] <sabdfl> that in the past, each time it's been done for good reasons, it's fallen apart later on
[22:17] <sabdfl> Salane: no, they want a local legal entity
[22:17] <sabdfl> Danish law allows for a reasonably lightweight thing, an Association
[22:17] <mako> so the most important part of this proposal is one that explain why it is necessary to have a legal entity
[22:17] <mako> why it's not possible to do things otherwise
[22:17] <Salane> I understand
[22:17] <Salane> has this been done before for a loco/group?
[22:18] <mako> and i don't really see that here
[22:18] <sabdfl> i think, for arranging a venue, for example, it's easier to have a legal entity
[22:18] <sbc> mako: If I may answer, it is possible to do without, but it will make getting locations much more easy, also it will provide us with a democratic structure.
[22:18] <sabdfl> than to ask someone to be individually responsible
[22:18] <mako> right, that was alluded to in the Board section
[22:19] <Salane> I just finished the article and the logs from the last meeting-
[22:19] <mako> sbc: of course, you can have a democratic structure anyway
[22:19] <mako> but if associations are necessary to get venues, it may still be a good idea if the trade-off is worth it
[22:19] <mako> as in, the amount of time put in (on canonical's side and yours) saves you time in coordination
[22:20] <Salane> Hmm
[22:20] <sbc> mako: ofcourse. But a democratic structure that can handle money. If the loco team was to trust me with money and I ran off, they would have no way to go after me legaly. If they left money to the Associations there would be a responsibility (loosely said).
[22:20] <smurf> In Germany we have one other advantage that we can only get with an association-style setup
[22:20] <smurf> tax deductible donations
[22:20] <mako> sbc: yes, the ability to hold money as a group can be a benefit
[22:21] <sabdfl> it can also be a curse
[22:21] <Salane> The same thing here in the US I think
[22:21] <mako> right. apparently this has caused lots of headaches and work for canonical in regards to the trademark agreement and such
[22:21] <mako> i'm still happy to ask people to make this possible if it looks like the tradeoff is worth it
[22:21] <Salane> But I understand the position that there is a risk with making local groups not directly attached to Canonical official as to say.
[22:22] <mako> Salane: i trust that we can work that out
[22:22] <sabdfl> i would be willing to try it if it was agreed that the association would be dissolved if the CC felt it was not working
[22:22] <Salane> That is a great idea
[22:22] <sabdfl> and that the people who set it up agree to report to the CC regularly
[22:22] <mako> sabdfl: we can put that in the agreement
[22:23] <Salane> So for something like the Kansas loco this would not be appropriate, but for a larger CC that does a lot of events and is very involved they could receive official status, therefore enabling them to have this status?
[22:23] <ogra> the german association (as in non profit org.) is separate from the LoCo btw ...
[22:23] <mako> sabdfl: we should produce a list of things we (the CC) is concerned about, and then we can put that in the trademark agreement which can sort of act as the agreement or contract beteween their orga and ours
[22:23] <mako> sabdfl: depends on how active the kansas loco is, the laws and policies in kansas, etc
[22:23] <smurf> you can't exactly control whether the association gets dissolved, but what you can do is to withdraw e.g. trademark usage rights (so they'd have to change their name)
[22:23] <mako> sorry, for Salane
[22:24] <Salane> The Kansas loco is not active
[22:24] <sabdfl> ok
[22:24] <sabdfl> that's all fine with me
[22:24] <Salane> I have done somethings here- I was jstu saying for some group that was much larger it would be
[22:24] <sabdfl> i need to clear it with silbs, but will recommend that we do +1
[22:24] <mako> so i'm happy with the proposal of the oganization
[22:24] <Technoviking> +1 here, sound like a great suggestion
[22:24] <Salane> They would also have to present certain things, like meeting notes and such
[22:24] <sbc> Yay! :)
[22:24] <Salane> Directly to the CC
[22:25] <mako> for future people doing this, i still think it would be good to have people write-up a description of why they feel that an association is necessary
[22:25] <sabdfl> ok, Salane, would you mail me a reminder, please?
[22:25] <mako> and i think we need to come up with a short of list things (perhaps on a cc email thread) for what we want out of orgnaizations
[22:25] <Salane> sabdfl: Of some of my ideas? Of course
[22:25] <mako> should at least include reporting, and basic responsiveness stuff
[22:26] <mako> plus whatever silbs et al think is important
[22:26] <mako> but yes, i'm +1 if we can go forward with that
[22:26] <sbc> It would make our somming work much more easy if we have a list of 'requests from the CC' to apply to.
[22:26] <sabdfl> ok
[22:26] <Salane> I was very involved with the Boys Scouts of America and we had to do the same thing to retain our charter- so we could have members, insurance through the org. and etc.
[22:26] <mako> sbc: mail the cc list asking for that. there are other people ont here who may have something to say
[22:26] <mako> this is important enough that i want to at least run it by the full council if possible
[22:27] <Salane> Its simliar to that
[22:27] <sabdfl> sorry, should have asked sbc to mail me, not Salane
[22:27] <mako> :)
[22:27] <sabdfl> should we move on to intrepid art?
[22:27] <sbc> mako: So should I send a mail to the CC or sabdfl ?
[22:27] <sbc> or both?
[22:27] <Salane> Yeah that confused me sabdfl
[22:27] <mako> sbc: thanks for following up on this. this is much of what i was looking for last time :)
[22:27] <sbc> mako: great
[22:28] <mako> mail sabdfl, it will get to the CC when appropriate, i'm sure
[22:28] <Salane> Sounds awesome
[22:28] <sabdfl> artwork! Salane, have we met?
[22:28] <Salane> I do not believe so!
[22:29] <Salane> This is my first CC actually
[22:29] <sabdfl> welcome
[22:29] <Salane> Should I give some background info?
[22:29] <mako> welcome :)
[22:29] <sabdfl> i very much agree with your sentiments on the art in ubuntu
[22:29] <mako> Salane: outside of what is written alrady on the wiki
[22:29] <Salane> Thanks!
[22:29] <mako> which we just read, i think
[22:29] <sabdfl> it's a long-standing dream of mine to get a more cohesive community engagement
[22:29] <sabdfl> but ... it's been challenging
[22:30] <Salane> I will give some background info
[22:30] <sabdfl> at present, the situation is that kwii is responsible for it, together with the community
[22:30] <sabdfl> but without very firm guidance either way
[22:30] <Salane> Ok so what really needs to happen? I feel that the art team is very disorganized
[22:30] <sabdfl> i would love to have a better result, a very strong design ethic, with community participation
[22:31] <Salane> We have no way of really voting on things - perhaps a Launchpad scheme would be appropriate?
[22:31] <Salane> So the community can help as a whole on this?
[22:31] <sabdfl> i don't believe that voting will work
[22:31] <sabdfl> what i observed with art was that we had a lot of passionate individuals, each of whom wanted their design to be "selected"
[22:32] <sabdfl> but none of which were polished enough to be a whole theme
[22:32] <Salane> I understand that - any time these things are discussed on the forums, users cant seem to agree
[22:32] <Technoviking> I know at the last two UDS there was talk to setup some kinda site like Gnome Look or Ubuntu art
[22:32] <Salane> True
[22:32] <sabdfl> what i wanted, was to bless a leader ("artist in chief") for a release, who could provide the guidelines
[22:32] <sabdfl> and have the community fill out the long tail
[22:32] <Salane> Do we need to then make some guidelines, and have everyone work on it?
[22:32] <mako> so we need someone with so compelling that people can get behind it :)
[22:32] <sabdfl> but that just did not work
[22:32] <sabdfl> yes, mako, i agree
[22:32] <Technoviking> to get more community buy-in / feedback
[22:33] <sabdfl> we need someone who has a mandate to JUST DO IT, and the time and money and skills to make a huge head start
[22:33] <sabdfl> many art folks would say "i want my own theme"
[22:33] <sabdfl> but we may also get many who will say "that's amazing work i will help flesh it out"
[22:33] <sabdfl> and we should be open to that latter
[22:33] <Salane> I have designed some mockups, but I feel things that I outlined on the talk page need to happen no matter what
[22:33] <sabdfl> i think kwii is working on a very classy dark theme for intrepid, not as default, but for those who want it
[22:33] <Salane> I know I do not care if "my theme" is chosen
[22:34] <sabdfl> Salane: i think the font suggestion is brilliant
[22:34] <sabdfl> and am very open to leadership there
[22:34] <sabdfl> i think arne goetje would be a good person to speak with
[22:34] <sabdfl> and nicholas spalinger
[22:34] <Salane> The problem though with the font is where will we find a good open source font for this?
[22:34] <sabdfl> i thought, from your comments on /talk, that you knew the answer to that!
[22:35] <mako> right
[22:35] <Salane> Well I can find good fonts, but they are either free and not open source or completely closed
[22:35] <mako> Salane: i think you have done a pretty job of describing the problem. which is useful and which we have a lot of agreement on
[22:36] <Salane> and there are other questions as well about some fonts if they follow certain Ubuntu guidelines
[22:36] <sabdfl> such as?
[22:36] <Salane> Some people suggested using the Red Hat Lib fonts for documents/ other apps, but it was pointed out there might be usage problems
[22:37] <Salane> I looked into and i dont think that will be a problem
[22:37] <Salane> But that is jsut one option
[22:37] <sabdfl> it would certainly be good to be helping to improve the same fonts that others are working on, if they have the same basic goal
[22:39] <Salane> sabdfl: With the system font, if it was decided to use a Humanist Sans Serif, what would be the best way of creating a FOSS font? I have found many free ones but not OS. We could create our own...
[22:39] <sabdfl> a font is much harder to do than it sounds
[22:40] <sabdfl> a great font is years of professional work
[22:40] <sabdfl> would rather collaborate with other distros and upstreams
[22:40] <Salane> Ok I agree with that
[22:40] <sabdfl> but, in principle, we are happy to make changes, and fort you to lead the discussion
[22:41] <Salane> Well there are other fonts that have been used in Gnome Art themes; should the art team then find about a dozen or so and have the CC vote on it?
[22:41] <sabdfl> figure out what the options are, and the risks, and let's take a look at them
[22:41] <sabdfl> we want one great sans, one great serif, one great mono
[22:41] <sabdfl> Salane: will you report back to us?
[22:41] <Salane> Like the font in Elegant Brit Gtk theme; it is very smooth and readable; much better than Ubuntu's current.
[22:41] <Salane> Yes I will
[22:41] <Salane> I will ask the art team to look for fonts.
[22:41] <sabdfl> ok
[22:41] <sabdfl> any other business?
[22:41] <Salane> the next meeting I will present a wiki page
[22:42] <sabdfl> thank you!
[22:42] <Salane> with exmaples.
[22:42] <Salane> Icons!
[22:42] <Salane> I am pumped about making II look as good as possible
[22:42] <Salane> II=Intrepid Ibex
[22:42] <sabdfl> ok, can we build on the existing Human icon theme?
[22:43] <Salane> Sure- perhaps keep basically the same icons, but maybe change to a more nuetral color?
[22:43] <sabdfl> rather than the orange?
[22:43] <Salane> I also think they could use less gloss...
[22:43] <Salane> perhaps a lighter orange/brown
[22:43] <sabdfl> we want them to be distinctive, for screenshots
[22:43] <Salane> Its important we retain the orange/brown I think - for our identity.
[22:43] <Salane> Yes
[22:43] <sabdfl> agreed
[22:43] <Salane> not a copy
[22:44] <sabdfl> am very happy to look at concepts that you do
[22:44] <sabdfl> please use the folder icon as the test case
[22:44] <sabdfl> i am going to push that we reduce the total number of icons we manage
[22:44] <Salane> Ok- I am not the best at icon design, but I will work hard with others to improve Human
[22:44] <sabdfl> hopefully, upstream will be open to this idea too
[22:44] <sabdfl> fewer, better icons == win!
[22:44] <Salane> What exactly is upstream? Debian I assume?
[22:44] <sabdfl> on icons, probably Gnome
[22:45] <Salane> Oh ok
[22:45] <sabdfl> although we are responsible for Human
[22:45] <sabdfl> Gnome won't care about that
[22:45] <Salane> Well I think I will also talk to art about this one, get people involved, and create several "styles" for proposal using the folder icon as an example
[22:45] <sabdfl> ok
[22:45] <sabdfl> looking forward to that!
[22:45] <Salane> Post them on a wiki of course
[22:45] <Salane> Good
[22:45] <sabdfl> please also talk with kwii
[22:46] <Salane> Kwii? Do you have an email?
[22:46] <sabdfl><EMAIL_ADDRESS>as a starting point
[22:46] <Salane> Thanks
[22:46] <Salane> Oh we have spoken
[22:46] <Salane> ken and I
[22:47] <sabdfl> try<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:47] <Salane> Great
[22:47] <sabdfl> ok, thanks all
[22:47] <Salane> As for everything else, it wont take much more to really make this pop
[22:47] <Salane> with regards to the theme
[22:48] <Salane> Ken has a palette that we are too follow I assume, so again I think the art team should work together to lay out proposals.
[22:48] <sabdfl> i think the palette is up for discussion
[22:49] <Salane> really? But still keeping with the orange/brown I assume?
[22:49] <sabdfl> staying distinctive, but aiming for... beautiful
[22:49] <Salane> Ok- I was thinking we should have one light whitish/brown theme and one dark brown included in 8.10 -
[22:50] <Salane> Would that be a good idea? The art team had discussed this and liked it.
[22:50] <sabdfl> i can't comment without seeing a mockup
[22:50] <Salane> Ok.
[22:51] <Salane> What is your opinion on making the theme have more gradients and rounded edges?
[22:51] <Salane> Not too round, but just a little bit more streamlined...
[22:51] <sabdfl> same - need to see it
[22:52] <Salane> Ok. So I believe this will to the art team and Ken - wiki page created for main ideas/guidelines, then proposed here?
[22:52] <sabdfl> can we ask you to come back with mockups of theme and icons, and consult with kwwii so we don't have a collision?
[22:52] <sabdfl> yes please
[22:52] <Salane> Haha yes.
[22:52] <Salane> I am excited!
[22:52] <sabdfl> me too - looking forward to seeing it
[22:53] <Salane> All of my questions have been answered. I look forward to it as well.
[22:53] <Salane> would you like my email in case you need to contact me?
[22:53] <sabdfl> i see it here :-
[22:53] <sabdfl> )
[22:53] <Salane> Ok good.
[22:53] <mako> i'm going to want to defer to the art team and those who have more of an eye for this
[22:54] <mako> but i appreciate the work and that it's being done
[22:54] <Salane> mako: agreed
[22:54] <Salane> Everything will involve the art team: its the spirit of FOSS!
[22:54] <sabdfl> alright
[22:55] <Salane> I will just spearhead a more organized process for getting things done per sabdfl's suggestions.
[22:55] <sabdfl> this is challenging stuff, Salane, we have had setbacks before
[22:55] <Salane> I understand.
[22:55] <sabdfl> but it's worth diving in to see what we can achieve
[22:55]  * mako nods
[22:55] <sabdfl> ok, thanks all!
[22:55] <sabdfl> are we wrapped?
[22:55] <Salane> I am good.
[22:55] <sabdfl> night, then. thanks Technoviking, mako, sbc, Salane
[22:55] <Technoviking> night
[22:56] <Salane> night
[22:56] <mako> great, thanks everhone