[00:14] <annerajb> has anybody been succesfull on porting ubuntu touch to cm-11.0 based devices?? rsalveti
[00:15] <rsalveti> annerajb: working on it
[00:16] <rsalveti> annerajb: ping me back next week :-)
[00:16] <annerajb> rsalveti, any pointers to which branches is it being worked on and for what devices so i can help or learn?
[00:16] <rsalveti> annerajb: the core porting is still local, want to get at least one image working before getting that somewhere
[00:16] <rsalveti> but basically doing a rebase of our current patchset and doing some additional changes
[00:17] <annerajb> hmm ok ill stop what i am doing them so i don't spend a week going crazy :P
[00:17] <annerajb> rsalveti, thx
[00:17] <rsalveti> haha, no worries
[00:17]  * rsalveti dinner
[02:11] <mhall119> beuno: starts early Feb
[02:19] <egrep_> https://i.imgur.com/RzyPiV3.png , yet afterwards my nexus 4 (mako) boots fine into cwm-ubuntu recovery. any way to get it to either ignore that, or to (myself/get-it-to) do the stuff that it does afterward?
[02:35] <egrep_> Oh. It's just python. I can probably pluck out what I need.
[02:36] <mhall119> beuno: starts early Feb
[02:36] <egrep_> Or can I...
[02:36] <egrep_> Bah. I'm too lazy.
[03:00] <egrep_> I think I might know the problem...
[03:20] <egrep_> GAAH.
[03:30] <egrep_> apparently this is a hardware problem -.-
[03:40] <egrep_> I hope this script that's I found works...
[03:44] <egrep_> ...It's working...
[03:49] <egrep_> Riiiight. Seems to work... except for the touch screen.
[03:49] <egrep_> Or any buttons at all.
[03:50] <egrep_> In fact, it seems frozen.
[03:50] <egrep_> Well, it's better than Vista.
[03:52] <egrep_> IT WORKED!
[03:52] <egrep_> Your silence was awesome! THANKS!
[03:56] <egrep_> Right... there's only QWERTY?
[03:59] <RAOF> egrep_: I don't know; possibly at the moment.
[03:59] <egrep_> :(
[04:00] <egrep> At least I have Ubuntu!
[04:00] <RAOF> Hurrah!
[04:01] <egrep> I wonder if it's possible to create my own keyboard...
[04:01] <egrep> ...but I'll figure out later.
[04:01] <egrep> Probably is.
[04:02] <RAOF> Shouldn't be too hard; it probably requires nothing more difficult than editing a text file somewhere.
[04:05] <egrep> Yeah.
[04:05] <egrep> So far, it's pretty awesome.
[04:06] <egrep> Do you know if the recent apps are still running when I go to the home screen, or if they close?
[04:07] <RAOF> Neither; they get stopped, then (possibly) killed in such a way as they restart at their previous point.
[04:07] <RAOF> Except for baked-in apps; we don't yet have the lifecycle + multitasking APIs fleshed out.
[04:09] <egrep> Huh.
[04:45] <Mirv> chriscoulson not online anymore :(
[05:34] <vp7> is ubuntu sdk installable in ubuntu 12.04?
[05:39] <brayann16k> hello
[05:40] <vp7> not able to install ubuntu sdk in Ubuntu 12.04.. I would like to develop applications for Ubuntu moblie. please help with installation
[06:48] <pitti> robru: FYI, I manually uploaded https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/autopilot-gtk/1.4+14.04.20140107-0ubuntu2
[06:49] <pitti> second time I had to do it, it seems the daily-release PPA has an xpathselect stuck in it which never gets released
[06:49] <pitti> robru: thanks for landing ap-gtk
[07:42] <robru> pitti, hummm, maybe there should be a landing ask for xpathselect? not familiar with that component.
[07:43] <pitti> it's a library for autopilot (and not much else)
[07:43] <pitti> I suppose trunk finds its way automatically into the PPA, but then it never gets released
[07:43] <pitti> but packages get build against PPA libs and then binary-copied into ubuntu
[07:44] <robru> pitti, yes, the current scenario of 'manual publishing mode' results in everything built in the PPA frequently, but only released to distro when asked for. makes the PPA a real mess.
[07:44] <pitti> right, and apparently we don't have an installability/dependency check there
[07:44] <pitti> supposedly it doesn't happen too often
[07:44] <robru> pitti, well apparently it got held up in -proposed, so I guess there was some kind of check.
[07:45] <pitti> right, in britney (and after failing its and shotwell's autopkgtest)
[07:45] <pitti> the no-change upload fixed it, so no actual harm done
[07:45] <pitti> I was just wondering why xpathselect isn't being released
[07:45] <robru> pitti, well, nobody told me to release it ;-)
[07:47] <pitti> now, I'm not really familiar with the release bureaucracy behind it, but if it helps I can add something to the landing spreadsheet
[07:47]  * pitti does
[07:48] <robru> pitti, well do you know who develops xpathselect? make sure upstream is ready for a release. would be bad if trunk was not releasable and we made a release...
[07:49] <pitti> done
[07:49] <pitti> robru: it's thomi
[07:49] <robru> pitti, ok
[07:49] <pitti> robru: and yes, as all our tests and builds run against the PPA version it's fine to release; we also have an autopilot PPA with daily releases
[07:49] <robru> pitti, oh ok
[07:50] <robru> pitti, so if I do a release of xpathselect, will it require another no-change rebuild in distro?
[07:50] <pitti> no, should be fine; it doesn't break ABI
[07:50] <robru> pitti, ah ok. I'll just release it then...
[07:51] <pitti> but building against a newer version causes a binary dependency to the newer version, so it's uninstallable agianst the older ubuntu lib
[07:51] <pitti> robru: cheers
[07:51] <robru> pitti, ahhhhhh
[07:52] <robru> pitti, ok, i hit the publish button. should hit proposed within half an hour.
[07:52] <pitti> nice, that avoids running into the same trap again on the next ap-gtk upload; thanks!
[07:52] <robru> pitti, you're welcome ;-)
[08:00] <puppoo> how is it going everyone?
[08:00] <puppoo> i wanted to get info about Ubuntu?
[08:00] <puppoo> anyooonne?
[08:01] <puppoo> whois?
[08:04] <dholbach> good morning
[09:00] <snakerock> Hello everybody. Is Canonical team porting UT to Nuxus 5?
[09:40] <popey> xnox: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6713891
[09:40] <popey> following your emulator email to the letter (I didn't install any pre-requisites)
[09:52] <xnox> popey: interesing. What's the output of: dpkg-query -W android-emulator xvfb xinit phablet-tools
[09:52] <xnox> popey: (my script hides it unfortunately)
[09:52] <popey> well, I have installed android-emulator now.
[09:53] <xnox> popey: basically one needs those packages installed, but it takes time to pointlessly do it each time, hence the basic check like that. I guess it fails if you had some RC removed packages =/
[09:53] <popey> its possible I had it installed and removed it, certainly
[09:54] <popey> xnox: also, ran "run-tests" and now I have an empty emulator window and a login prompt.
[09:55] <popey> ahhh! its failing (partly) because I have a phone attached too
[09:55] <xnox> popey: patience
[09:55] <popey> "more than one device and emulator"
[09:55] <popey> because my phone is charging
[09:55] <xnox> popey: oh, yeah, i'm expecting one thing and one thing only =)
[09:56] <xnox> popey: disable adb / usb debugging on the phone.
[09:56] <popey> its ubuntu touch
[09:56] <xnox> popey: i guess i could filter for "emulator-*"
[09:56] <popey> that would help
[10:00] <seb128> Mirv, hey, did you see chrisccoulson's question about qt5.2 landing yesterday? (I didn't see you replying)
[10:01] <xnox> popey: sorry about that =) Filed a bug #1267044 will try to fix.
[10:01] <popey> np
[10:01] <xnox> a bug in a different place, but i have no bugtracker yet.
[10:05] <Mirv> seb128: yes he wasn't online in the morning. so chrisccoulson see ubuntu-phone before Christmas for steps, and links inside the red box at https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjuCdq68GSyVdFI4QzNQdWpfME5aMEV2VXo0cUpOMkE#gid=19 - a lot of build failures need to be fixed, and then the image built with the PPA validated
[10:06] <seb128> Mirv, k
[10:06] <seb128> Mirv, thanks
[10:06] <Mirv> about 80 source packages in addition to Qt itself need a rebuild, for about 55 of which I've done a LP build recipe
[10:06] <Mirv> you're welcome
[10:10] <Laney> seb128: what sets silent-mode in gsettings?
[10:10] <seb128> Laney, nothing, mpt never provided us an UI to do that (I think he said he was assuming that it wouldn't be an UI thing but an hardware button)
[10:10] <mpt> correct
[10:11] <Laney> hmm
[10:12] <seb128> Laney, why?
[10:13] <Laney> I'm doing the AS stuff for the sound panel
[10:13] <ogra_> which hardware button would that be ?
[10:14] <seb128> ogra_, I guess volume down when hitting 0 ?
[10:14] <ogra_> vol down -1 ?
[10:14] <Laney> so it's not a boolean flag
[10:14] <seb128> Laney, it should, why?
[10:14] <Laney> it's volume == 0
[10:14] <ogra_> you will still want to have a switch to en/disable vibration in that mode
[10:14] <seb128> ogra_, vibration != silent mode I guess
[10:14] <Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound#Phone like that?
[10:15] <ogra_> seb128, i probably dont want vibration if i turn my phone to silent
[10:15] <seb128> Laney, I'm not convinced that volume = 0 is a right assumption
[10:15] <Laney> then there needs to be a control for it
[10:15] <seb128> ogra_, see the drawing on the wikipage Laney pointed
[10:16] <seb128> Laney, well, volume down can do the toggle when it hits 0
[10:16] <seb128> Laney, then later we can maybe add stuff like "keep the power button pressed for 3 seconds" (what android is doing)
[10:16] <seb128> or an UI somewhere
[10:17] <seb128> Laney, I think it needs to be a bool flag, the fact that we don't have UIs atm to toggle the value doesn't change that
[10:17] <seb128> we might get some later
[10:17] <Laney> currently it does nothing
[10:17] <Laney> that needs to change or having the flag is useless
[10:17] <seb128> it displays the warning in the UI
[10:17] <Laney> nothing ever sets it
[10:17] <Laney> so you will never see the warning
[10:17] <seb128> right
[10:18] <seb128> but that's orthogonal
[10:18] <seb128> you are arguing that we should throw the backend away because we don't have an UI yet?
[10:18] <seb128> that seems backward, we are just ready for when we get the frontend part
[10:19] <seb128> we don't have kinectic/vibration support in the toolkit yet either
[10:19] <seb128> though that should land this week from what I read
[10:19] <seb128> (or maybe next)
[10:19] <Laney> there is no design for any explicit way of enabling silent mode
[10:19] <Laney> indeed mpt just said it was 'hardware' controlled
[10:19] <seb128> well, that's a design issue
[10:20] <seb128> it still makes sense to have the backend side and UI ready
[10:20] <seb128> it means you can enable silent mode from a command line atm
[10:20] <seb128> which is better than not at all
[10:20] <seb128> (omitting that it's not actually implement because the kinectic stuff didn't land yet)
[10:21] <Laney> so maybe indicator-sound could set this
[10:21] <Laney> (or something else)
[10:22] <Laney> are volumes and the silent state a global property?
[10:23] <seb128> mpt, do you envision silent-mode to be equivalent to "volume=0" or to me a bool state which is orthogonal to that?
[10:24] <mpt> seb128, orthogonal. Some sounds aren’t muted by Silent Mode (alarms, for example), and the volume setting would continue to control those.
[10:24] <seb128> Laney, ^
[10:24] <Laney> so how do you enable silent mode then?
[10:24] <seb128> mpt, so you think we are going to get a physical "silent mode" button on the hardware then?
[10:25] <seb128> mpt, wouldn't it make sense to have an UI on the software side as well? (e.g android let you enable flight mode or silent mode when you press the power button for some seconds)
[10:25] <mpt> seb128, that’s my working assumption. Unfortunately Silent Mode is one of the things that was forgotten in the PRD, so there are no definite requirements for it. If it turns out that there isn’t a hardware button, I’ll add it to the menu.
[10:30] <seb128> mpt, just curious, is there any phone out there with a such button?
[10:30] <Rienzilha> iphone
[10:30] <mpt> ^
[10:31] <Rienzilha> apple will probably have patented it :)
[10:31] <Rienzilha> because a hardware button is a revolutionary new invention :P
[10:32] <seb128> oh, ok
[10:32] <seb128> my android phone only has power/up/down
[10:33] <ogra_> yeah
[10:33] <ogra_> an we dont plan for other hw buttons at all on the lower system level
[10:39] <timp> I like silent mode when you put your phone face-down on a surface
[10:40] <timp> still it would be handy if there is a way to make it silent in your pocket
[10:59] <chrisccoulson> Mirv, thanks. i'm waiting on the qt5.2 stack to properly test oxide on touch
[10:59] <chrisccoulson> is there any chance of me using the qt5.2 PPA for building oxide? :)
[10:59] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:00] <ogra_> davmor2, hey ...
[11:00] <ogra_> davmor2, disabling swap is sadly not that easy since it happens from the initrd ... you would have to hack up the script to disable the swapon in there and re-build the initrd
[11:01] <davmor2> ogra_: I'm not talking to you, fancy not being online hours after your EOD ;)
[11:01] <davmor2> ogra_: ah
[11:02] <davmor2> ogra_: so is this a case of making a separate build for testing before rolling it out to the general public then?
[11:02] <ogra_> (and additionally remove the swap line from fstab)
[11:02] <ogra_> no, i think we can test that manually
[11:03] <ogra_> let me try to disable it here, then i can give instructions ...
[11:03] <ogra_> need to upgrade to 118 first though
[11:03] <ogra_> hmpf
[11:03] <ogra_> no wifi on my maguro
[11:04] <ogra_> ah, was just slow
[11:11] <Mirv> chrisccoulson: sure, you can use it to build oxide most probably. because of the ABI breakage and resulting forced unity removal, I'd just suggest you do it inside chroot. apt-add-repository ppa:canonical-qt5-edgers/qt5-beta2
[11:14] <ogra_> davmor2, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6714261/
[11:14] <atya> hi all
[11:15] <davmor2> ogra_: just slow hpfff welcome to my world @P
[11:15] <davmor2> :P even
[11:15] <atya> can anybody tell me, where can I see, what is the last QA passed 14.04 Touch?
[11:15] <davmor2> ogra_: I'll give it go for the day then and let you know what dies :)
[11:15] <atya> what is the build number and date, I mean
[11:16] <ogra_> atya, http://ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/touch/
[11:17] <atya> ogra_, tnx
[11:17] <davmor2> ogra_: I'm there trying to touch /userdata/.... and wondering why it wasn't working I hadn't done adb shell first, it's going to be a long day isn't it :D
[11:18] <ogra_> asac, so testing maguro with swap disabled here ... opening 4 webapps works but after a few times switching between them two of them are dead
[11:18] <ogra_> davmor2, ^
[11:18] <ogra_> try what you get (once you are there)
[11:19] <davmor2> ogra_: yeah will do
[11:20] <taiebot> Hi all. Am i the only one getting a crash with unity8 when scrolling through the music section?
[11:21] <ogra_> works fine here
[11:21] <seb128> Laney, rvr: hey
[11:21] <rvr> pong!
[11:21] <rvr> self.assertThat(background, Equals(None))
[11:21] <seb128> Laney, did you have issues with only one test for u-s-s autopilot on the device?
[11:21] <Laney> umm
[11:21] <seb128> Laney, or anything using the pointer?
[11:21] <rvr> that test fails because is not None
[11:22] <Laney> I think it was basically all of the storage tests at least
[11:22] <Laney> because it couldn't click on the item
[11:22] <rvr> Laney: Aha
[11:23] <rvr> Laney: Maybe the objects were renamed?
[11:23] <seb128> rvr, no, those works on desktop fine, the issue is only on the device
[11:24] <davmor2> ogra_: I think I'm done is there a way to confirm there is no swap now, just run mount or something?
[11:24] <ogra_> davmor2, free
[11:24] <ogra_> the bottom lline should only show zeros
[11:24] <davmor2> ogra_: yeap
[11:24] <davmor2> perfick
[11:24] <ogra_> :)
[11:24] <Laney> Yeah, indeed, it's on the device only
[11:24] <Laney> probably best if someone tries to run it so that they can see themselves
[11:25] <davmor2> ogra_: osk seems slower
[11:26] <ogra_> oh, havent tried osk
[11:26] <ogra_> i definitelly have two of four screenshots blank though
[11:26] <ogra_> and swiping trough the apps doesnt seem to work properly
[11:27] <ogra_> (first one comes up, cant flick to others though)
[11:27] <davmor2> ogra_: hmm what happens if I open the camera that used to slow the system to halt as it was :D
[11:27]  * ogra_ tries
[11:28] <ogra_> works for me
[11:28] <ogra_> i can even take pics
[11:28] <rvr> Laney: Ok, will try to check it as soon as my device comes from the death and get updated
[11:28] <Laney> nod, thanks
[11:28] <ogra_> heh, but swiping it away to get back to the home screen is so delayed that i thought it hangs
[11:29] <davmor2> ogra_: haha
[11:29] <ogra_> and i definitely cant swipe through the running apps anymore
[11:29] <ogra_> hangs on the first on
[11:29] <ogra_> e
[11:29] <davmor2> ogra_: yeap I got that
[11:34] <dednick> sforshee: ping
[11:37] <davmor2> ogra_: I get a load of flashing from the camera app
[11:38] <ogra_> yeah, i got that too, but only after taking the first pic
[11:38] <davmor2> ogra_: not for me it was flashing like crazy before that
[11:43] <chrisccoulson> Mirv, oh, that's not really what I meant :)
[11:43] <chrisccoulson> i was actually asking if i could build it in that PPA ;) (i need an arm build, which already takes nearly a whole day on these builders)
[11:44] <chrisccoulson> i have another shared PPA for building on arm, but I'm not sure whether people would like me adding other random PPA's as a dependency
[11:44] <davmor2> ogra_: I thought knocking swap on the head was meant to make the system faster  or am I dreaming that is what was said
[11:45] <ogra_> davmor2, i dont see how it would ...
[11:45] <davmor2> ogra_: because it isn't off loading to swap all the time?
[11:45] <ogra_> it has a very low swappiness, it will only offload stuff you dont read/write a lot anyway
[11:46] <ogra_> so you shouldnt even notice
[11:46] <Mirv> chrisccoulson: is that lp:oxide?
[11:47] <ogra_> chrisccoulson, use canonical-arm-dev, it is native and will be 10x faster
[11:47] <ogra_> iirc you are a member there
[11:48] <Mirv> chrisccoulson: I now created a recipe to building into that PPA from lp:oxide
[11:48] <Mirv> I don't mind having the PPA even not-yet-in-use sources that need to eventually build against Qt 5.2
[11:49] <Mirv> chrisccoulson: https://code.launchpad.net/~canonical-qt5-edgers/+recipe/daily-qt52-oxide - accessible whenever Launchpad feels like not giving a timeout
[11:50] <tvoss> pitti, https://code.launchpad.net/~thomas-voss/qtubuntu-sensors/cmake-setup-take-2
[11:50] <Mirv> chrisccoulson: right, a debian/ directory would help in getting it built, so please use another PPA until you have packaging
[11:50] <Mirv> but it'll auto-build when it's there
[11:52] <chrisccoulson> ogra_, i need to build it against the qt5.2 stack
[11:52] <chrisccoulson> Mirv, ah, the recipe won't work, as it's missing the chromium checkout ;)
[11:53] <ogra_> cant you set up the qt5.2 ppa as a dependency ? i thought LP had an option for that
[11:53] <chrisccoulson> ogra_, i can, if people don't mind me doing that
[11:53] <ogra_> well, disable it later again :)
[11:53] <ogra_> i doubt anyone minds if thats a temporary thing
[11:53] <chrisccoulson> heh, i guess i could do that. as long as other users of it are happy for me to do that, then i'll do it :)
[11:54] <ogra_> tell them to complain to me if they feel like complaining ;)
[11:55] <pitti> tvoss: \o/ did you get your cleanups branch merged? (that was a prerequisite, right?)
[11:56] <tvoss> pitti, one of it, yes
[11:56] <tvoss> pitti, other one is proposed, too
[12:00] <asac> ogra_: hmm. not sure who would really understand why disabling swap has bad impact
[12:00] <asac> i am sure we still have free mem when you see those issues?
[12:00]  * ogra_ checks
[12:01] <ogra_> yep
[12:01] <asac> ogra_: maybe kernel team might understand what exact effects disabling swap has?
[12:01] <ogra_> let me install htop, thats easier to read
[12:01] <asac> right
[12:01]  * asac steps out for lunch
[12:02] <ogra_> asac, well, i thought tvoss evaluated that when designing the whole system
[12:02] <ogra_> apps also dont save their state, they just die and start afresh ... i thought the platform api was supposed to make sure they start where they stopped
[12:02] <tvoss> ogra_, its up to the app to save their state
[12:03] <ogra_> tvoss, ugh
[12:03] <tvoss> they receive a signal from the platform api
[12:03] <tvoss> ogra_, we obviously don't store complete memory snapshots
[12:03] <ogra_> tvoss, so that means when flicking through my apps with more than two open i always end up on their start page
[12:03] <ogra_> i thought that was the design (saving whole mem snapshots)
[12:03] <asac> ogra_: yeah, but since you said we see issues even though we are not out of memory makes me think
[12:04] <asac> that there is some side effect of disabling swap
[12:04] <tvoss> ogra_, of course not, we always argued against saving memory snapshots
[12:04] <ogra_> i think the kernel frees up stuff (or tries to)
[12:04] <tvoss> ogra_, we keep the apps in memory as long as possible
[12:04] <ogra_> well, seems like sonething kills them randomly
[12:04] <tvoss> ogra_, so we usually resurrect only a stopped process, not a killed one
[12:04] <tvoss> ogra_, are we talking usual apps or webapps?
[12:05] <ogra_> tvoss, both
[12:05] <tvoss> ogra_, how can I easily reproduce the behavior you are seeing?
[12:05] <ogra_> i currently have four webapps open though ... two of them (totally random which ones) die after i flicked through them via the right edge
[12:06] <tvoss> ogra_ can you try with non-webapps, please?
[12:06] <ogra_> tvoss, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6714261/ disable swap like this ... then just start apps and use the system for a while
[12:06] <ogra_> (this is on maguro atm, since the low mem will most likely expose the issues earlier)
[12:07] <ogra_> tvoss, why would it make a difference ? the webapps are just standalone qml apps too (just using a webview inside)
[12:09] <tvoss> ogra_, @random killing: at some point, the OOM kicks in, the android one that is
[12:09] <tvoss> ogra_, @webapps: we have seen "interesting" behavior with the web runtime before and I'm not sure all known issues have been fixed
[12:09] <tvoss> dbarth, ^, can you shed some light here?
[12:10] <ogra_> tvoss, well, i dont get any such issues with 6 webapps open when i use swap on the same device
[12:10] <ogra_> without swap and only four of them two of them die reliably
[12:12] <tvoss> ogra_, well, I would suspect the apps run out of memory ... and that an allocation just fails
[12:12] <tvoss> ogra_, but that's only a wild guess
[12:12] <tvoss> ogra_, how does it behave on the n4?
[12:16] <ogra_> tvoss, no idea, its my main phone and i wont do hackery on it
[12:17] <ogra_> i would test on grouper but Mir misbehaves there
[12:17] <ogra_> and i guess running SF will get me different behavior
[12:18] <ogra_> tvoss, htp shows me 170M free btw (which means really free memory)
[12:18] <ogra_> *htop
[12:19] <ogra_> and dmesg has no trace of OOM
[12:19] <ogra_> logcat neither
[12:20] <ogra_> hmm
[12:20] <ogra_> stopping all open apps frees up 200M though
[12:20] <ogra_> (4 webapps)
[12:22] <davmor2> ogra_, tvoss: I have 5 non webapps open, (dialer, contacts, gallery, friends, messaging) the system is running so slow it is unreal but all 5 apps are still currently live
[12:23] <tvoss> ogra_, webapps are quite resource intensive as they have a web runtime each
[12:24] <tvoss> ogra_, and I wouldn't assume that they are very "no more memory" robust
[12:24] <tvoss> davmor2, ack, slowness is "fine"
[12:24] <ogra_> davmor2, 6 apps here, flicking through them five times or so now two thumbnails are empty .... and the swiping is stuck
[12:25] <ogra_> i can go back to the shell but cant flick through them
[12:25] <ogra_> ram is at the edge now
[12:25] <ogra_> (about 50M free)
[12:25] <tvoss> ogra_, is that with webapps?
[12:25] <ogra_> no
[12:26] <ogra_> thast with 6 native apps
[12:26] <ogra_> same behavior
[12:26] <ogra_> just later since they seem to eat lless ram
[12:26] <ogra_> no OOM traces anywhere
[12:27] <Rienzilha> there was a time, not so long ago, my desktop computer didn't even have 50M of ram :)
[12:27] <davmor2> ogra_: yay killed top
[12:27] <ogra_> tvoss, and that behavior didnt change for me since we talked about the same 6 months ago
[12:27] <tvoss> ogra_, might be, do we have a bug open to log the issue?
[12:27] <ogra_> nope
[12:28] <ogra_> oh, wait !
[12:28] <tvoss> ogra_, would you mind filing one against unity-mir?
[12:28] <davmor2> ogra_: don't forget that maguro has the bug with mir that means it randomly locks up if the frame buffer dies at any point
[12:28] <ogra_> androids oom doesnt have "oom" in the log message anywhere
[12:28] <ogra_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6714553/
[12:31] <asac> oSoMoN: did we ever get to tweak our webkit settings for low memory profiles?
[12:31] <sergiusens> ogra_, this is not good, right? [  165.347108] SysRq : Emergency Remount R/O
[12:31] <tvoss> ogra_, yup, was just about to say that
[12:31] <asac> oSoMoN: i remember this being discussed, just not sure if we did it
[12:31] <ogra_> sergiusens, argh ...
[12:31] <ogra_> sergiusens, sounds like a filesystem error
[12:31] <sergiusens> ogra_, finally joined the bandwagon and bought a Nexus 4...
[12:31] <asac> oSoMoN: see discussion about no-swap above
[12:32] <ogra_> sergiusens, heh and already hit issues ?
[12:32] <sergiusens> ogra_, I tried bootstrapping over the OS it had; I think it would be fine if I factory over it instead of the stock OS it came with
[12:32] <sergiusens> ogra_, yeah, today I saw on the back of it: Made in Argentina `:-P
[12:32] <sergiusens> that could be it
[12:32] <sergiusens> :-D
[12:34] <oSoMoN> asac, no, we never did
[12:34] <oSoMoN> reading the backlog now
[12:34] <asac> oSoMoN: but we know what to do, right?
[12:35] <ogra_> tvoss, bug 1267092
[12:35] <sergiusens> asac, tvoss no swap? http://paste.ubuntu.com/6714588/
[12:35] <ogra_> sergiusens, lol
[12:36] <sergiusens> we do have a swap file created it seems
[12:36] <ogra_> sergiusens, we do
[12:36] <asac> sergiusens: right. thats the point
[12:36] <asac> we want to kill that
[12:36] <ogra_> sergiusens, but we want to disable it asap
[12:36] <ogra_> but first need ot make sure it still works fine ... which it doesnt
[12:36] <sergiusens> ah; then nvm!
[12:36] <asac> its fine if it doesnt work perfect as long as we have ideas and hopes that we can fix it :)
[12:37] <sergiusens> it didn't 12 months ago either
[12:37] <ogra_> yeah
[12:37] <ogra_> as i mentioned in the bug
[12:38] <oSoMoN> asac, not specifically, we know where to look for stuff to tweak, but I don’t think we ever tested those options
[12:38] <ogra_> in fact the bug desxcription is wrong ... i dont actually hit 100%
[12:38] <asac> oSoMoN: right. what are those tweaks?
[12:38]  * ogra_ wonders if those tweaks have to happen on webkit level ...
[12:38] <asac> oSoMoN: does webkit even implement memorypressurehandlerlinux.cpp?
[12:38] <ogra_> that might cause issues for deskrtop
[12:38] <asac> in a reasonable manner?
[12:39] <asac> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123532
[12:39] <asac> seems its not implemented
[12:39] <asac> probably could be ripped out of androids webkit?
[12:39] <ogra_> though i think we have a general problam with the "keep apps alive even if they dont run" setup
[12:39] <asac> well. we dont see thos issues
[12:39] <asac> until we kill swap
[12:39] <ogra_> right
[12:39] <tvoss> ogra_, I think we are not aggressive enough in killing apps
[12:40] <asac> just want to check if webkit work is possible in reasonable time
[12:40] <asac> seems there are some patches for memory pressure available
[12:40] <ogra_> tvoss, i think apps that are really dead should not have a thumbnail as a first step :)
[12:40] <asac> without that it clearly makes sense that webkit isnt good at low memory
[12:40] <oSoMoN> asac, I don’t know, I’d need to investigate
[12:40] <tvoss> ogra_, well, talk to design ...
[12:40] <asac> oSoMoN: i feel we would need at least something liek this: https://bug-123532-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=217871
[12:40] <tvoss> ogra_, and on top: why would a user have to care
[12:40] <ogra_> and then we should start trying to fix the reason they die and put the thumbnail back
[12:41] <tvoss> ogra_, they die because we run out of memory
[12:41] <asac> oSoMoN: you think that might apply cleanly to our code so we could try?
[12:41] <ogra_> tvoss, an early adopter would file a bug if the app goes away
[12:41] <ogra_> a user shouldnt even use such a system ... i'm just tryingto find a way to track the issue a bit better
[12:41] <tvoss> ogra_, don't know what you mean. So you are saying if an app dies involuntarily, the thumbnail should go away?
[12:42] <ogra_> tvoss, for now, yes
[12:42] <ogra_> so people will file bugs
[12:42] <ogra_> currently it looks like the shell behaves weird
[12:42] <ogra_> while it is the app
[12:42] <oSoMoN> asac, no idea, it has to be tried, but since the plan is to switch to oxide is it really worth investing time in tweaking our current setup now?
[12:42] <asac> so yeah. if we dont even have memorypressure in webkit i think we can ignore that and focus on non-webapps to evaluate
[12:43] <ogra_> tvoss, i just mean as a temporary thing while we try to track this down
[12:43] <tvoss> ogra_, how would that help?
[12:43] <ogra_> it wouldnt make the flicking through apps non-functional for example
[12:43] <tvoss> ogra_, then we are only hiding the issue from my pov
[12:43] <ogra_> k
[12:44] <asac> oSoMoN: where is oxide?
[12:44] <ogra_> asac, i think we should ask QA to come up with a test for ... say .. having 10 apps open and making sure they keep running
[12:44] <asac> oSoMoN: isnt that webkit either? can you check if the code has memorypressure implementation?
[12:44] <ogra_> (and swiping through them etc)
[12:45] <asac> i am sure we need that in all code
[12:45] <sergiusens> ogra_, flashing a factory image and then doing the bootstrap worked fine btw ;-)
[12:45] <ogra_> great ... so it was the preinstalled system then
[12:45] <asac> ogra_: well, if it clearly doesnt work, then we just need an owner who fixes that until he believes things are fine
[12:45] <asac> once we dont se big issues landing and having tests makes sense for even better quality
[12:46] <sergiusens> with apport taking over my cpu :-P
[12:46] <ogra_> sergiusens, haha
[12:46] <oSoMoN> asac, yeah, I’ll check
[12:46] <ogra_> sergiusens, apport was fixed yesterday, cant be :P
[12:46] <tvoss> ogra_, we shouldn't test if the apps are running, but if they can be flicked through
[12:46] <davmor2> ogra_, tvoss: man it does really odd things when you swipe with less than 50 MB left
[12:46] <asac> davmor2: without webapps?
[12:46] <ogra_> tvoss, well, at least as long as we can detect if the app is actually displayed
[12:47] <tvoss> ogra_, sure, the important bit is: the apps might not be running when they are in the background. We just need to make sure that they run when they are in the foreground
[12:47] <ogra_> tvoss, on mako i get a weird "fade out" animation for the dead apps (iirc from last time), on maguro the flicking completely stops working
[12:47] <tvoss> davmor2, sure, we need to tune our memory limits to make sure that we have more memory reserved to the system
[12:48] <ogra_> davmor2, yeah, it does
[12:48] <asac> tvoss: who owns taking the current device and tweaking the limits until its ready for rolling to our images?
[12:48] <ogra_> asac, doesnt matter
[12:48] <ogra_> asac, webapps just make you hit the threshold earlier it seems
[12:48] <davmor2> asac: Yeap, currently I have (notes, shorts, gallery, weather, friend and clock)
[12:48] <ogra_> for qml 6 seems the limit before it starts
[12:48] <tvoss> asac, no one, yet. need to find someone
[12:48] <ogra_> for webapps it is 4
[12:48] <ogra_> (on maguro)
[12:49] <ogra_> i guess mako might allow twice the amount
[12:49] <davmor2> confirming ogra_ 's assessment 6 normal apps 4 webapps and crazy things happen
[12:51] <ogra_> hmm, no kernel guys around ...
[12:51] <ogra_> i wonder if it would help to disable swapping at kernel build time
[12:51] <ogra_> i.e. it might do things differently then
[12:52] <davmor2> swipe between apps and it skips apps, then the skipped app overlays the current app, if you swipe again it then goes passed the app you wanted, swiping back the the apps lens and a random app will suddenly come to the front, some apps holder on the apps lens show as blank, if you click on it it opens the app.......etc etc
[12:53] <ogra_> yeah
[12:53] <ogra_> for me at some point swiping doesnt work at all anymore
[12:53] <ogra_> ah, speaking of the devil ...
[12:53] <ogra_> hey rtg
[12:53] <rtg> devil, huh ?
[12:54] <ogra_> qheh
[12:54] <davmor2> ogra_: ah for me it worked but kept showing the notes app
[12:54] <ogra_> rtg, so we are trying to disable swap on the phones and get odd behavior ... i was wondering  if ... when swap is disabled in the kernel config ... there are different codepaths that could cause more sane behavior
[12:55] <ogra_> i.e. does the kernel try to swap (or raise OOM) if swap is enabled but there is no swap in use etc etc
[12:56] <rtg> ogra_, not sure, I'm not really familiar with that part of the kernel.
[12:56] <ogra_> who do we have that is ?
[12:57] <rtg> maybe apw
[12:57] <ogra_> he is hiding from here :P
[12:57] <tvoss> ogra_, so I will write down steps to adjust the android OOM killer behavior such that we keep more memory available to the shell
[12:57] <rtg> its not something we have to deal with very often
[12:57] <tvoss> ogra_, can we just try with an adjusted kernel?
[12:57] <ogra_> yeah
[12:59] <ogra_> tvoss, as long as we dont need to change modules, replacing the kernel binary isnt an issue
[12:59] <ogra_> we even ship  developer scripts for that
[12:59] <tvoss> ogra_, would be great if you could try a custom kernel, I will look into the oom killer stuff
[13:01] <davmor2> ogra_: man htop uses a lot of cpu
[13:01] <ogra_> yeah
[13:01] <ogra_> 6-8% constantly
[13:01] <ogra_> but it is the most accurate tool to see free ram
[13:02] <davmor2> ogra_: agreed it's much nicer to look at :)
[13:19] <tvoss> didrocks, Mirv, pitti https://code.launchpad.net/~thomas-voss/qtubuntu-sensors/add-position-plugin-in-preparation-for-dropping-qtlocation-distro-patch
[13:20] <tvoss> and https://code.launchpad.net/~thomas-voss/qtubuntu-sensors/cmake-setup-take-2
[13:20] <dbarth> tvoss, ogra_: sounds like a leak in the webkit runtime; i see that oSoMoN is looking into the memory handler of the runtime
[13:20] <dbarth> that should be part of the solution, and be a todo for oxide as well
[13:23] <ogra_> dbarth, well, i dont think webkit is the actual cause here ... it just exposes the symptom earlier due to being ram hungry
[13:23] <ogra_> tvoss, ^^
[13:28] <tvoss> ogra_, yup, but we still should fix the leak
[13:31] <dbarth> ogra_: have the use case for reproducing the leak? ie which webapps are so prone to making webkit loose control?
[13:41] <ogra_> dbarth, bug 1267092
[13:42] <ogra_> dbarth, i'm using a few apps from the store: heise, golem, n-tv and tagesschau (some typical german news apps)
[13:47] <ogra_> tvoss, hmm, so i cant easily build a kernel since trusty does not have the compiler used for building it
[14:13] <janimo> bregma hi, can  Unity8 with mesa drivers on a regular x86 desktop be tested at the moment?
[14:23] <bregma> janimo, Unity8 "runs" on XMir but has very limited functionality
[14:30] <janimo> bregma, are the platform-api or other touch specific bits present in some form in the XMir version?
[14:32] <ogra_> janimo, unlikely
[14:33] <ogra_> all that stuff hooks into Mir itself, not XMir
[14:34] <janimo> ogra_, so this is a blocker for any device without an available android port that just has working mesa right?
[14:34] <ogra_> janimo, is that on arm or x86 ?
[14:35] <janimo> ogasawara, x86
[14:35]  * ogra_ hugs leann
[14:35] <ogra_> :)
[14:35] <janimo> ogra_, for instance on a regular x86 tablet that regular Ubuntu works
[14:35] <ogasawara> ogra_: ahhh, my first steal of 2014 :)
[14:35] <ogra_> yeah
[14:35] <janimo> one of you really should yield, be wiser and change your nick :)
[14:35] <ogasawara> no way!
[14:36] <ogra_> i already grew a tail to make us more distinguishable ... what more do you want
[14:36] <ogasawara> hehe
[14:36] <janimo> ogra_, grow a prefix, that is what causes the mess :)
[14:37] <ogra_> janimo, well, i think you would actually need Mir to run to make use of the unity-mir and platform-api bits properly
[14:37] <ogra_> (not XMir)
[14:37] <ogra_> and i dont think there is any mesa support in Mir yet
[14:38] <ogra_> iirc there was a bug open for SW rendering support, ask on #ubuntu-mir
[14:56] <cwayne> dpm, ping, do we have a standard process for missing translations?
[14:57] <cwayne> i.e., do we have a catch-all bug for apps, or do we have bugs by missing strings, etc
[15:07] <ogra_> rsalveti, do you know if the original android kernel config usually has swap enabled ?
[15:09] <ogra_> tvoss, asac, davmor2, so disabling swap in the kernel config does not change a thing i still have two out of four webapps die
[15:10] <tvoss> ogra_, ack
[15:10] <rsalveti> ogra_: nops
[15:10] <rsalveti> ogra_: that's something we enable by default
[15:10] <ogra_> and it feels a lot slower over all (if thats even possible on maguro)
[15:11] <rsalveti> but did you check to see if swap is really being used with maguro?
[15:11] <ogra_> rsalveti, yeah, i know ... i just wanted to know if the system behaves any different with it disabled ... i.e. if the kernel has different code if that option is off
[15:11] <rsalveti> shouldn't
[15:11] <ogra_> right, just proven that
[15:11] <ogra_> not actually easy since you cant build our kernels on trusty anymore
[15:12] <rsalveti> ogra_: why that?
[15:12] <ogra_> (gcc4.6 is gon from the archive)
[15:12] <rsalveti> oh, I guess I have a pending fix somewhere for mako at least
[15:12] <ogra_> well, this was maguro :)
[15:12] <ogra_> which is even 3.0
[15:13] <rsalveti> right, but I know we have issues with all of them
[15:13] <ogra_> yeah
[15:13] <ogra_> we havent had a build under trusty yet
[15:13] <rsalveti> right :-)
[15:13] <ogra_> the others accept 4.7 though i think
[15:13] <rsalveti> why did we remove 4.6?
[15:13] <rsalveti> maintenance issues?
[15:13] <ogra_> no idea, ask doko
[15:13] <ogra_> or infinity
[15:13] <ogra_> or whoever is in charge of such decisions
[15:14] <rsalveti> I know that only 4.6 worked fine for most of our kernels
[15:14] <ogra_> in any case i know that the odd behavior doesnt change kwhen it is disabled in the kernel config
[15:14] <rsalveti> we also had issues with 4.7
[15:26] <ogra_> jdstrand, i see a lot of http://paste.ubuntu.com/6715324/ (for random apps) on todays image (might be there longer, i havent looked at syslog for ages)
[15:28] <jdstrand> ogra_: that's been there a long time. that is bug #1260491 and should be fixed
[15:29] <ogra_> root@ubuntu-phablet:/# dpkg -l |grep apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu
[15:29] <ogra_> ii  apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu                              1.1.0                                       all          AppArmor easyprof templates for Ubuntu
[15:29] <ogra_> well, seems it isnt
[15:30] <ogra_> seems there is a line for each app i opened today
[15:30] <ogra_> root@ubuntu-phablet:/# system-image-cli -i
[15:30] <ogra_> current build number: 118
[15:30] <jdstrand> ogra_: can you paste the profile: /var/lib/apparmor/profiles/click_com.ubuntu.calendar_calendar_0.4.172
[15:32] <ogra_> jdstrand, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6715356/
[15:33] <ogra_> line 286 it seems
[15:35] <jdstrand> ogra_: is it possibly that these errors are from before you rebooted with the image that has 1.1.0?
[15:35] <jdstrand> s/possibly/possible/
[15:35] <jdstrand> cause, the rule is there
[15:35] <ogra_> jdstrand, no, i upgraded early this morning and still get these messages
[15:35] <jdstrand> ogra_: can you reboot, then tail -f /var/log/syslog and then launch the app and see if it gets the denial?
[15:36] <jdstrand> ogra_: what kernel is that?
[15:36] <mhall119> sergiusens: looks like there's a unicode bug in phablet-flash that makes it fail if the user's locale is chinese (and probably many other languages): https://bugs.launchpad.net/phablet-tools/+bug/1225257
[15:37] <ogra_> jdstrand, maguros 3.0 (right now not the archive kernel, but at the time the log was created it was original) (and my rebuild with swap disabled has no other changes)
[15:37] <jdstrand> ogra_: can you reboot and try again?
[15:37] <sergiusens> mhall119, if the locale is in chinese or if the filepath contains these elements?
[15:37] <ogra_> jdstrand, sure
[15:38] <ogra_> jdstrand, but i rebooted several times today, it wont change :)
[15:38] <sergiusens> mhall119, heh; the logger bails :-/
[15:39] <mhall119> sergiusens: I'd think language, since it's the logger
[15:39] <mhall119> unless it's the filepath triggering an exception that the logger tries to report and then also fails (dropping the original exception)
[15:40] <mhall119> but it looks like it ran into an error downloading a file, and tried to report that error, then failed at that point
[15:40] <ogra_> jdstrand, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6715397/
[15:40] <ogra_> no change after a fresh boot
[15:41] <sergiusens> ogra_, is http://<IP_ADDRESS> one of our mirrors?
[15:41] <ogra_> sergiusens, uh, no idea, IS would know
[15:42] <sergiusens> ogra_, cdimage redirects there it seems; I'll ask, thanks
[15:42] <ogra_> ogra@styx:~/Devel/branches/touchfhem/click$ host cdimage.ubuntu.com
[15:42] <ogra_> cdimage.ubuntu.com has address <IP_ADDRESS>
[15:42] <ogra_> not for me
[15:43] <sergiusens> ogra_, it was a 302 ;-)
[15:43] <ogra_> ah
[15:43] <jdstrand> ogra_: can you stop the calendar, then do: sudo apparmor_parser -r /var/lib/apparmor/profiles/click_com.ubuntu.calendar_calendar_0.4.172
[15:43] <jdstrand> ogra_: then try again?
[15:44] <popey> sergiusens: can we get a calculator update pushed to the store pls?
[15:44] <popey> ☻
[15:44] <sergiusens> popey, sure
[15:44] <popey> thanks
[15:44] <ogra_> jdstrand, completely quiet
[15:45] <jdstrand> interesting
[15:45] <jdstrand> that means that your /var/cache/apparmor files were newer than your /var/lib/apparmor/profiles files
[15:45] <jdstrand> (well, should mean that)
[15:47] <ogra_> jdstrand, hmm, all files in /var/lib/apparmor/profiles/ have a jan 1st 2000 timestamp
[15:47] <jdstrand> that is odd
[15:48] <jdstrand> seems the clock was off when you upgraded?
[15:48] <ogra_>  /var/cache/apparmor looks fine
[15:48] <ogra_> though i notice that some apps have 3-4 profiles in there for older versions
[15:48] <ogra_> wont that eat our disk at some point ?
[15:49] <ogra_> jdstrand, well, on the UI it definitely showed the right time this morning
[15:49] <ogra_> before i upgraded from system-settings
[15:51] <kaimast> hi all. are there any known glitches with mir on maguro. I have a weird flickering when I scroll a listview fast
[15:52] <jdstrand> ogra_: please file a bug on profile removal. it is known and we are actively leaving it in place atm
[15:53] <jdstrand> ogra_: that would be against click-apparmor
[15:53] <ogra_> ok
[15:53] <ogra_> though that doesnt help with the timestamp issue
[15:54] <ogra_> stgraber, are we sure the rtc and clock are set properly when the mount stuff in initrd runs ? looks like i have a writable dir with borken timestamps (jan. 1st 2000 for all files)
[15:59] <greyback> kaimast: there may be glitches with mir on maguro, it would help greatly if you'd log a bug on it please
[15:59] <ogra_> heh
[15:59] <ogra_> "might be"
[16:01] <kaimast> greyback: if i think more about it maybe it is just because of the overall slowness of the system
[16:02] <greyback> kaimast: that's https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1182930 then
[16:02] <kaimast> oh cool thanks greyback
[16:03] <kaimast> i wonder if support for galaxy nexus will be dropped in the near future
[16:04] <ogra_> kaimast, it will be the first device we drop *if* we drop one
[16:04] <kaimast> i really hope not :)
[16:05] <ogra_> well, it would really need a lot of love on the speed side
[16:14] <oSoMoN> didrocks, hey, webbrowser-app trunk has some debian packaging changes that could use a review before releasing, do you know who could do that review?
[16:15] <didrocks> oSoMoN: I'll ask ken to do them, just file the landing ask mentionning them please
[16:15] <didrocks> oSoMoN: the release is to fix the flaky tests?
[16:15] <oSoMoN> didrocks, no, the release is because there hasn’t been one in two months :)
[16:16] <didrocks> oSoMoN: fair enough, there is no flaky tests in it as well :)
[16:16] <didrocks> oSoMoN: gallery-app doesn't have any landing ask, that's on purpose?
[16:17] <oSoMoN> didrocks, there should probably be one, let me see with bfiller
[16:17] <bfiller> didrocks, oSoMoN : I added one earlier
[16:17] <didrocks> thanks!
[16:18] <didrocks> bfiller: oh? did I miss it?
[16:18]  * didrocks looks
[16:18] <bfiller> only did it like 30 mins ago
[16:18] <didrocks> ah ok!
[16:18] <didrocks> I'm not *that* crazy then
[16:18] <didrocks> thanks bfiller :)
[16:18] <sergiusens> balloons, popey just got an n4 here, autopilot test run twice as fast it feels
[16:18] <balloons> sergiusens, oO.. I'll bet. I've been on manta recently
[16:20] <oSoMoN> didrocks, regarding the packaging review, wouldn’t it make sense to do it prior to requesting a release? just in case it needs changes…
[16:21] <didrocks> oSoMoN: yeah, the issue right now is that we are all max out. If it's something trivial, I can have a look now
[16:23] <oSoMoN> didrocks, yeah, the changes are rather trivial, give me a sec and I’ll produce a diff for you
[16:23] <didrocks> thanks!
[16:25] <oSoMoN> didrocks, not a contained diff, but the changes are in those two revisions: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~phablet-team/webbrowser-app/trunk/revision/405 and http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~phablet-team/webbrowser-app/trunk/revision/420, the changes themselves are big but changes to the debian/ directory are rather minor
[16:25] <sergiusens> popey, https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/click-apps/154/
[16:25] <oSoMoN> didrocks, we’re basically splitting the webbrowser-app binary into two separate executables, thus two binary packages
[16:27] <didrocks> oSoMoN: ok, you are missing a Replaces:
[16:28] <oSoMoN> didrocks, for which package?
[16:28] <didrocks> oSoMoN: I would bump the release version in debian/changelog
[16:28]  * didrocks looks at the version
[16:29] <didrocks> oSoMoN: so, bump to webbrowser-app 0.23
[16:29] <popey> sergiusens: ta
[16:29] <didrocks> then, in debian/control:
[16:29] <didrocks> in the webapp-container stenza
[16:29] <didrocks> you need to add (below Dependencies most of the time): Replaces: webbrowser-app (<< 0.23),
[16:30] <didrocks> oSoMoN: oh actually, let me check something
[16:31] <oSoMoN> didrocks, it doesn’t actually replace anything, right, it’s just a new package that depends on the existing one
[16:31] <didrocks> oSoMoN: yeah, I was misled by your "split"
[16:31] <didrocks> oSoMoN: ok, no assets have moved, so everything is good, +1
[16:33] <oSoMoN> didrocks, cool, does it make sense to bump the version manually to 0.23, or should we let the automatic versioning do its job?
[16:33] <didrocks> oSoMoN: it's more of a matter of taste for you. As you changed it quite significantly, I would say bump it, but it's not that important
[16:34] <oSoMoN> didrocks, yeah, that’s what I thought, let’s bump it manually, it’s quite a big change after all
[16:34] <didrocks> please do, then just add to the landing ask :)
[16:34] <oSoMoN> will do, thanks
[16:37] <oSoMoN> didrocks, if I add a new changelog entry and leave it UNRELEASED, the release script will use it and fill it with all the relevant commit messages, right?
[16:37] <didrocks> oSoMoN: exactly
[16:37] <oSoMoN> as awesome as I expected it to be :)
[16:38] <didrocks> ;)
[16:38] <didrocks> the only commit that you won't see is the one with the changelog bump
[16:38] <didrocks> as in that case we decide "ok, manual entry in debian/changelog, we don't touch for *that* commit"
[16:38] <oSoMoN> makes complete sense
[16:39] <popey> sergiusens: approved (and tested)
[16:40] <oSoMoN> didrocks, is it ok to push such a change directly or does it have to go through the normal MR/CI/autolanding process?
[16:40] <didrocks> oSoMoN: it's ok for those trivial changes
[16:40] <oSoMoN> excellent
[17:19] <mhall119> is rotation broken? it doesn't seem to work on mako right now
[17:24] <mhall119> bzoltan: cjwatson: are you guys going to keep the SDK version and click platform version in sync?
[17:26] <cjwatson> mhall119: I don't see that anything is needed here
[17:26] <robru> rsalveti, sergiusens: how would I test that a new release of qtubuntu-sensors is working? what steps can I take to verify that it works?
[17:26] <mhall119> cjwatson: well we're adding new APIs and stuff, if an app is using them we don't want it installing on an older install of the OS
[17:26] <cjwatson> mhall119: that's what the framework version in the SDK is for; it doesn't need to be kept in sync with click though
[17:27] <mhall119> also a move to Qt 5.2, which I hear is going to have binary compatibility breaks
[17:27] <cjwatson> the SDK owns that version declaration
[17:27] <cjwatson> (this was discussed pretty extensively at UDS, maybe you could review that)
[17:27] <mhall119> cjwatson: so the string in the click manifest should match the SDK, but click itself doesn't need to be told what the available ones are?
[17:27] <cjwatson> click is told that by the SDK; it doesn't live in click's own source code
[17:27] <mhall119> cjwatson: do you rememeber the meeting name?
[17:27] <cjwatson> no
[17:28] <cjwatson> but it had some really obvious name
[17:28] <mhall119> is the click scope aware and able to filter available apps for install and update based on that?
[17:28] <cjwatson> dunno
[17:28] <cjwatson> ask a click scope dev :)
[17:28] <mhall119> beuno: ralsina_ ^^
[17:29] <ralsina_> mhall119: yes it is
[17:29] <mhall119> ok, great, thanks
[17:29] <ralsina_> mhall119: or rather it can be made to do so easily, not sure if it does at this point since there has only ever existed one version
[17:30] <ralsina_> mmcc: are we sending the framework version on queries?
[17:30] <mhall119> we should check that, because I think we're going to have a new version of the SDK soon
[17:30] <ralsina_> mhall119: yes, doing that right now :-)
[17:30] <mhall119> :)
[17:31] <mmcc> ralsina_: reading back. which queries? scope queries to click server for app results?
[17:31] <mhall119> mmcc: yes
[17:31] <ralsina_> mmcc: IIUC yes
[17:31] <mhall119> mmcc: so that if I have 13.10 installed, but an app needs 13.10.1, it won't be available to install
[17:32] <mmcc> here's what the query looks like: https://search.apps.ubuntu.com/api/v1/search?q=,framework:ubuntu-sdk-13.10,architecture:i386
[17:32] <mmcc> so, yes
[17:32] <mhall119> mmcc: and on the server, does it use that as a minimum version, or does it have to match exactly?
[17:33] <mhall119> or maximum version, I suppose
[17:33] <mmcc> mhall119: I don't know - maybe we should ping beuno on that
[17:33] <mhall119> beuno: ping ^^
[17:34] <beuno> for the sdk version?
[17:34] <mhall119> yeah
[17:35] <mhall119> if a query sayd framework:ubuntu-sdk-13.10.1, will I get results for apps that target just ubuntu-sdk-13.10?
[17:35] <mhall119> s/sayd/says/
[17:35] <beuno> the plan, IIRC, is for that field to be exact, but with multiple entries
[17:35] <mhall119> multiple entries in the click package?
[17:35] <beuno> yes, in the manifest file
[17:36] <pmcgowan> my proposal was its a minimum within a major version
[17:36] <mhall119> +1 to that
[17:36] <pmcgowan> so 13.10.0 will work on 13.10.1 for example
[17:36] <pmcgowan> but 14.04 would not
[17:36] <beuno> right, although the current naming sucks a bit to do min/max/etc
[17:36] <mhall119> as long as the version name/number convention is enforced going forward
[18:51] <annerajb> Hello!
[18:54] <mterry_> stgraber, I wanted to modify the files from the system phablet image (like add some debugging comments to a qml file).  I edited the tar.gz inside the final zip used during a manual install.  But it didn't seem to take.  Is there a further trick?
[18:56] <stgraber> mterry_: I'm only doing system-image and with system-image there's no such thing as .zip or .tar.gz so I don't know what you're talking about :)
[18:57] <stgraber> if you are trying to manually patch system-image .tar.xz files before pushing them to your device, that won't work as the gpg signature won't match anymore
[18:57] <mterry_> stgraber, hmm.  Maybe the manual instructions at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Install are out of date?
[18:57] <stgraber> all system-image updates need to be gpg-signed by the system-image server
[18:57] <stgraber> yeah, "Manual Download & Installation" covers the old style cdimage images, not the read-only system-image
[19:17] <annerajb> Does Ubuntu Touch Support any device that has LTE? Specifically sprint LTE?
[19:23] <thomi> tedg: Any ideas about the gir for upstart-app-launch? If you were able to give me a rough timeline, I can communicate that to the people who are asking me for upstart app launch support in autopilot :)
[19:24] <tedg> thomi, So I've got it building the GIR but some of the annotations seem to be off.  Mostly need to debug.
[19:24] <tedg> thomi, https://code.launchpad.net/~ted/upstart-app-launch/gir-support/
[19:24] <tedg> thomi, That works to start and stop applications, but the observers don't work yet.
[19:25] <thomi> tedg: cool - it's a pity that the thing I need most is the thing that doesn't work yet :)
[19:26] <thomi> any ideas how long that debugging takes? I have no clue about gir stuff, so I really don't know how hard debugging this stuff is... are we talking hours, days, weeks?
[19:27] <tedg> I'm hoping just an hour or two, just need to get it scheduled.  I'd hope to have it done by the end of the week.
[19:27] <thomi> tedg: awesome, thanks. Once it's done, are you able to release to distro wihtout too much pain?
[19:28] <tedg> thomi, Ha!  You need to figure out how to mark it as a "regression" -- that's how things get to distro :-)
[19:28] <thomi> tedg: I only need it in trusty :)
[19:28] <thomi> well
[19:28] <tedg> thomi, Frankly, saucy is easier than trusty.  Gotten SRUs landed weeks before they got into trusty.
[19:29] <thomi> tedg: I know... it makes me sad
[19:29] <thomi> but we can at least try. Let me know when you have the code in trunk and I'll try and help get it landed
[19:30] <mterry_> stgraber, is there a way at all to edit files before first boot?
[19:30] <tedg> Cool thanks
[19:33] <cwayne> thomi, tedg: i'm happy to try and help get stuff into the image if i can as well
[19:33]  * cwayne is pretty dependent on this fix from thomi :)
[19:34] <thomi> cwayne: I was about to point you to that conversation :)
[19:34] <thomi> cwayne: sorry the fix turned out to be more complicated than it seemed at first :)
[19:34] <cwayne> thomi, no worries, i generally assume that'll happen :P
[19:34] <cwayne> but for sure let me know when stuff's in trunk and I can try and help push it through
[19:35] <thomi> yup
[19:58] <sergiusens> mterry_, you would need to modify the recovery image for that
[19:59] <sergiusens> or do a manual deployment of what's in http://phablet.ubuntu.com/gitweb?p=CyanogenMod/android_bootable_recovery.git;a=blob_plain;f=system-image-upgrader;hb=refs/heads/phablet-trusty
[20:08] <stgraber> mterry_: not easily, no. It's usually much easier to boot the system, apply your changes, then wipe /userdata/ of everything but system.img and SWAP.img, then reboot (which is effectively equivalent).
[20:13] <cwayne> cyphermox, hiya, do you think that bluetooth-touch MR will make it in this week?  (just trying to get a plan/timeframe together) :)
[20:16] <annerajb> sergiusens, are you guys planning on supporting any devices with LTE (specially sprint lte)??
[20:18] <cyphermox> cwayne: ah! let me get that done RFN.
[20:20] <sergiusens> annerajb, that's a question for awafaa
[20:20] <sergiusens> awe_,
[20:20] <sergiusens> ^
[20:24] <awe_> annerajb, we will eventually, but not until we officially support an LTE-based device...
[20:25] <Stskeeps> fwiw lte should work fine
[20:26] <Stskeeps> at least from ofono ril/capabilities pov
[20:26] <annerajb> awe_, what is required to get LTE support done, development on what project/library or side?
[20:28] <awe_> Stskeeps is partially correct, our existing ofono code isn't that far off.  In fact it might work as is, but no promises until we've committed to officially supporting a device
[20:28] <Stskeeps> :nod:
[20:29] <awe_> I can't work on it, if I don't have a mandate, nor an actual device to work with...
[20:29] <annerajb> would it be possible for me to help on that code or does it require any special hardware? NDA knowledge or anything like that?
[20:29] <awe_> that said, if someone needs help with a port, I'd be glad to offer assistance, encouragement, ...
[20:29] <awe_> annerajb, do you have a device that Touch has been ported to, that support it?
[20:30] <annerajb> :( not yet
[20:30] <awe_> then no
[20:30] <annerajb> so all i need is a working ported device?
[20:31] <awe_> and familiarity with ofono and RIL
[20:31] <awe_> and LTE
[20:31] <awe_> ;D
[20:32] <annerajb> well i will have to wait for cm-11.0 be supported in ubuntu touch
[20:32] <awe_> annerajb, we will get to this, it's just there are more important basic features still being worked on
[20:34] <annerajb> ill guess ill have to sit idle while cm-11.0 is supported I started yesterday and noticed libhardware was a mess and needed merging badly
[20:41] <annerajb> can we run android apps from ubuntu touch or do you have to boot back to android for that?
[20:42] <cyphermox> sergiusens: can you help with a bit more review?
[20:43] <cyphermox> sergiusens: https://code.launchpad.net/~cwayne18/ubuntu/trusty/bluetooth-touch/bluetooth-touch_lp1266859/+merge/200699
[20:49] <cyphermox> cwayne: sorry, it doesn't work reliably on the Galaxy Nexus, I'm trying to fix it..
[20:49] <sergiusens> cyphermox, I have a coment that can fix it
[20:50] <cyphermox> ok
[20:50] <cyphermox> about when the properties service gets started?
[20:51] <cyphermox> sergiusens: it works fine started manually, the problem is that it fails on boot at least half the time, at least here on my maguro
[20:55] <sergiusens> cyphermox, added comment; you prbably haven't waited for the android container to fully start
[20:55] <sergiusens> cyphermox, best choice is to wait for the socket bridge or the lxc container
[20:55] <cyphermox> sergiusens: that should affect any and all bringup of bluetooth on the maguro though, and it doesn't seem to be
[20:56] <cyphermox> it's the exact same code as bluetooth-touch :D
[20:56] <sergiusens> cyphermox, is the job being logged? if the property system isn't up; response would be empty
[20:56] <cyphermox> there is nothing to log there
[20:56] <cyphermox> you'd never get any bluetooth working on the maguro
[20:57] <cyphermox> brcm-patchram-plus wouldn't get started
[20:57] <cummseng> what is ubuntu-touch? Is it linux + android/java on top or is it pure linux + some sort of touch interface with xorg etc
[20:57] <sergiusens> cummseng, none
[20:57] <sergiusens> cummseng, it's ubuntu + mir + small android running in lxc for driver support
[20:58] <sergiusens> cummseng, the last + slowly goes away as hw support comes
[20:58] <cyphermox> doh
[21:01] <cummseng> can i install xmir and compile xorg apps and run them on the phone or is there more involved?
[21:04] <cyphermox> sergiusens: the issue has nothing to do with the property service or android
[21:04] <cwayne> cyphermox, yeah, i was figuring started bluetooth would've been fine, as bluetooth-touch does it on starting bluetooth
[21:04] <cyphermox> it's because bluez is slow to start, and overwrites the change
[21:04] <cwayne> ah
[21:04] <cyphermox> this is partly why I was suggesting to do it in bluez directly
[21:05] <cyphermox> I added a sleep 10 just before hciconfig and it's working great now
[21:06] <cwayne> cyphermox, the pretty-hostname would've worked as well, but i was trying to not have to patch systemd (which i'd have to get /etc/machine-info properly writable)
[21:07] <cyphermox> too bad it doesn't work on maguro, it was a pretty simple solution
[21:08] <cwayne> cyphermox, yeah :/
[21:08] <cwayne> i really thought if i did start on started bluetooth bluez would be fully up
[21:09] <cyphermox> I can write you a quick plugin for bluez
[21:11] <cyphermox> or you're welcome to ship the config anyway yourself if you're only really interested in the Nexus 4
[21:11] <cyphermox> (as a temporary solution)
[21:12] <sergiusens> cyphermox, is there any reason yet to hook up to the device through bluetooth?
[21:12] <cyphermox> the what?
[21:12] <sergiusens> reason is, I'd do it properly; it's to hard to undo hacks
[21:12] <cyphermox> this one isn't really hard to undo
[21:13] <cyphermox> but that's what I'm saying, I'll write a plugin for bluez to do this, that's the "right way", if libandroid-properties is something available to the world
[21:14] <cwayne> i'm fine with doing it 'the right way', and i'm happy to help test cyphermox's plugin
[21:15] <mhall119> is there some place where we're tracking the copy/paste functionality?  I have yet to get it to work
[21:17] <cyphermox> sergiusens: I mean, a plugin that asks android-properties for the value and apply it if say, Name = %a or whatnot would be reusable by other people who try to run Linux on formerly android devices, assuming that it's fine to link things against hybris.
[21:18] <sergiusens> cyphermox, I would abstract this somewhere else if possible; platform-api'sh; rsalveti ?
[21:18] <cyphermox> erm, abstract that how, why?
[21:18] <cyphermox> this is low-level bluetooth bringup stuff, not application stuff
[21:18]  * rsalveti reads backlog
[21:19] <sergiusens> rsalveti, the question is if we should use libandroid-properties directly
[21:20] <sergiusens> cyphermox, then again, I missed the plugin part; so I take back my comment
[21:20] <cyphermox> oh, ok?
[21:20] <sergiusens> cyphermox, I think you should be fine
[21:21] <cyphermox> I expect that would be a few thousand lines of codes only
[21:21] <cyphermox> just kidding :)
[21:21] <rsalveti> cyphermox: sergiusens: well, we could for sure move the properties calls to platform-api
[21:22] <rsalveti> but not something for the next few days for sure :-)
[21:22] <rsalveti> not hard to move though
[21:22] <cyphermox> ideally I'd like to write something that I can just ship to bluez upstream though
[21:22] <rsalveti> but we might want to have a different api
[21:22] <rsalveti> right, using our platform-api would be more ubuntu generic
[21:22] <cyphermox> yup
[21:22] <cyphermox> hence why I'm saying hybris or whatnot, to be as generic as possible
[21:23] <rsalveti> use libandroid-properties for now, and let's schedule a discussion during our next sprint to have this as part of platform-api
[21:23] <cyphermox> alright.
[21:23] <cyphermox> oh, are you planning to do away with android-properties, that's why?
[21:24] <rsalveti> cyphermox: no, but just thinking a more generic approach
[21:24] <cyphermox> this really isn't something people will change directly as such, but rather via bluez dbus calls later.
[21:24] <cyphermox> you mean ubuntu-specific
[21:24] <rsalveti> yeah
[21:24] <cyphermox> platform-api isn't generic
[21:24] <rsalveti> well, it's generic for ubuntu
[21:24] <rsalveti> that's our goal
[21:24] <cyphermox> right
[21:25] <cyphermox> well, in this case it's something that shouldn't matter at all
[21:25] <rsalveti> if we can make it more distro generic later on, would be awesome, but meanwhile we need at least something generic for us
[21:25] <rsalveti> right
[21:25] <cyphermox> well, it would be distro generic from the start
[21:25] <cyphermox> anyway, I'll write it, and propose it upstream, we'll see
[21:26] <rsalveti> right
[21:30] <cyphermox> bbl, dinner
[21:53] <bfiller> tedg: what's the equivalent of Qt.openUrlExternally("application:///gallery-app.desktop") in the click world? converting gallery-app to click and need to update call from camera-app
[21:53] <cummseng> is the community version of ubuntu-touch just the hackable version?
[21:53] <tedg> bfiller, Not sure of the package name, but it'd probably be "appid://com.canonical.gallery/gallery-app/current-user-version"
[21:54] <tedg> Oh, I guess I'm not sure of the desktop file name either.  But I'm assuming it's staying the same there.
[21:55] <tedg> If you changed it, that'll need to change as well.
[21:55] <bfiller> tedg: here is the click info for gallery http://paste.ubuntu.com/6717401/
[21:55] <tedg> Ah, so you should only need "gallery"
[21:56] <tedg> So "appid://com.ubuntu.gallery/gallery/current-user-version"
[21:56] <bfiller> tedg: thanks, what is the "gallery" represent?
[21:57] <tedg> bfiller, It's the item under "hooks" in the manifest.  In theory there could be multiple entries there.
[21:57] <bfiller> tedg: got it, thanks
[22:02] <popey> cummseng: there's only one version really. the one you can download.
[22:02] <cwayne> bfiller, do you have an ETA on the gallery-app as a click?
[22:02] <tedg> bfiller, Just FYI, you could do "appid://com.ubuntu.gallery/first-listed-app/current-user-version" and that'd choose the first item.  Not sure if that's useful for your use.
[22:02] <bfiller> cwayne: hopefully this week - in process of testing and fixing tests, etc
[22:02] <cwayne> ah, great!
[22:02] <bfiller> cwayne: will do gallery and camera together
[22:03] <bfiller> tedg: ok
[22:03] <cwayne> thomi, ^^ that may just get you off the hook for that autpilot fix :P
[22:03] <cwayne> (obviously it'd still need to be done, but that'd make it less urgent for us)
[22:10] <sergiusens> bfiller, package name, app name, version, that's the tripplet
[22:10] <greyback> tedg: if I did "application://com.ubuntu.gallery", would it just work? My app should not care about galley app version
[22:10] <sergiusens> bfiller, in an ideal world we could put camera and gallery nin the same package; but that's not supported yet
[22:11] <tedg> greyback, Nope, application URLs are more specific than that.  appid:// URLs allow you to put in a detectable version.
[22:11] <greyback> tedg: so there are 2 prefixes: "appid://" and "application://" ?
[22:12] <tedg> greyback, Correct.  One we inherited from ZG and the scopes.  The other more reflects click symantics.
[22:12] <sergiusens> tedg, couldn't bfiller just use com.canonical.gallery and com.canonical.camera in his calls?
[22:14] <greyback> tedg: if I'm an app developer, making my funky app, which wants to open gallery and have it show a picture of mine, what do I do? Qt.openUrlExternally("appid://com.ubuntu.gallery?file=mysharedfile.png")
[22:21] <thomi> cwayne: yeah, thanks
[22:22] <Nicnm> anyone know what the root password for the tablet is?
[22:22] <cwayne> Nicnm, phablet
[22:22] <Nicnm> lol rly, thanks
[22:31] <mhall119> where should I file bugs against the Unity 8 theme?
[22:31] <kaimast> hey all. is wireless encryption (WPA2) working? i seem to not be able to connect
[22:31] <mhall119> Saviq: ^^ ?
[22:31] <mhall119> kaimast: works for me, never really had a problem with it
[22:32] <mhall119> on Nexus 4 anyway
[22:32] <mhall119> greyback: why in the gallery and not in your app?
[22:32] <Saviq> mhall119, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/trunk/files/head:/modules/Ubuntu/Components/Themes/
[22:32] <Saviq> mhall119, so ubuntu-ui-toolkit
[22:33] <mhall119> Saviq: thanks
[22:33] <mhall119> Saviq: are the colors on the welcome screen determined by the theme?
[22:33] <tedg> greyback, We don't support additional data on a URL.  If you want to do something like that you should probably use content hub.
[22:33] <Saviq> mhall119, you mea infographic?
[22:33] <tedg> greyback, There are some custom URL formats for different apps that can handle different data, but not the generic ones.
[22:33] <kaimast> nevermind now it is working. last time it (re)asked me for the password all the time
[22:34] <mhall119> Saviq: let me just get to the point, I want to file a bug about the orange color on the infographic looking terrible on non-purple backgrounds, and suggest it auto-adapt with the wallpaper
[22:34] <greyback> mhall119: is just a theoretical question. Say I've made something like instagram. My app made the photo, but I'd like to save it to the image gallery, which gallery app does nicely
[22:34] <Saviq> mhall119, ubuntu-ux first, then
[22:34] <mhall119> greyback: ah, I think ContentHub can do that
[22:34] <mhall119> thanks Saviq
[22:34] <Saviq> mhall119, we're re-working the infographics system
[22:35] <Saviq> mhall119, but just to pre-empt your issue - automagically adapting colors is not something that's really doable
[22:35] <Saviq> mhall119, we'll provide a few colour themes for the infographics most probably
[22:35] <Saviq> mhall119, and we can try and select one that fits the wallpaper somehow
[22:35] <greyback> mhall119: then I wonder what's the real value of Qt.openUrlExternally for an app developer....
[22:36] <Saviq> mhall119, but ultimately we'll allow users to select the theme most probably
[22:36] <mhall119> Saviq: my thought was that we provide a table of base-color/highlight-color pairs, then best-match the wallpaper's "chameleon" color to a base-color
[22:37] <Saviq> mhall119, 16M values? ;)
[22:37] <mhall119> no no no, far fewer
[22:37] <Saviq> mhall119, but anyway, that's not enough, we need multiple colours
[22:37] <mhall119> we don't need *every* shade or purple, just bluish-purple, purple-purple, and red-purple
[22:38] <mhall119> really it can be based on hue, ignoring brightness and saturation
[22:38] <Saviq> mhall119, we need a small (4-5) palette of colours for visualizers to use
[22:38] <mhall119> oh right, because different info uses different colors
[22:38] <mhall119> forgot about that
[22:39] <mhall119> we could use the same idea though, if the backround is "purple-ish", then use these two shades or orange and these two shades or purple
[22:39] <Saviq> mhall119, but yeah, we know the problem - not a solution, though, yet
[22:39] <Saviq> something along those lines, yes
[22:40] <mhall119> I'll propose it in the bug report
[22:40] <Saviq> afk
[22:40] <kaimast> btw, how awesome is ubuntu touch? :)
[22:40] <kaimast> (tried it for the first time on my phone today)
[22:41] <mhall119> kaimast: pretty damn awesome :)
[22:41] <kaimast> ran into some bugs but I was expecting a lot more
[22:49] <mhall119> kaimast: stay on the stable channels (not -devel) and you shouldn't have many problems thanks to all the QA work
[22:51] <mhall119> Saviq: do we have bugs for tracking features from Unity 7 that are missing on Unity 8?  Things like count indicators on the launcher, progress bar on the launcher, etc
[22:53] <kaimast> is -devel like the -proposed stuff on the desktop?
[22:53] <kaimast> i have no idea what channel i am on :D
[22:55] <RAOF> devel-proposed is like the -proposed stuff on the desktop :)
[22:55] <kaimast> so devel is like ubuntu+1?
[22:59] <RAOF> Yes.
[23:56] <ds2> for a device flashed with an image, is there a easy way to get the hash and repo of the kernel sources running?
[23:56] <ds2> this is a Galaxy Nexus running "Trusty Tahr" per /etc/issue


[07:47] <andrejz> good morning!
[07:48] <dpm> hey andrejz :)
[07:48] <dpm> good morning everyone!
[09:03] <andrejz> Hello!
[09:03] <andrejz> I have a question
[09:04] <andrejz> Is there any  way to integrate custom word list into launchpad
[09:05] <andrejz> We thought it would be great to have some way to suggest recommended terms (common vocabulary) to translators automatically
[09:05] <andrejz> Has anyone thought about similar idea in the past or maybe even implemented it for their own language ?
[09:07] <dpm> andrejz, there is no standard way. What you can do is to create a project with the list of words in English, then translate them into Slovenian (or any other language) and take advantage of global suggestions in Launchpad: if you translate the words in this project, they will be shown as suggestions in all other projects in Launchpad. There was in fact a project created with this intention, but it is no longer maintained. Let me see if I find the
[09:07] <dpm> link...
[09:09] <dpm> Here it is: https://translations.launchpad.net/translation-standards
[09:12] <andrejz> Thanks for reply, dpm. I am aware of the global message sharing feature. But the problem is that all the messages (even the ones we don't have influence on, or some very old ones) are included in the message sharing.
[09:12] <andrejz> As such both good and bad suggestions are used
[09:12] <andrejz> Is there any way to make some suggestions prefered?
[09:13] <dpm> andrejz, no, but you can delete suggestions. What do you mean you don't have influence on them? Can't you delete bad suggestions or choose the good ones instead?
[09:14] <andrejz> I can use the good suggestions, but this is meant especially for new translators to help them learn quality translations faster, and if they have some good and some bad suggestions it's not optimal
[09:14] <andrejz> Is it possible to delete a suggestion so it's not dispayed as a suggestion anymore, ever ?
[09:17] <dpm> andrejz, it is possible, yes, you should be able to do it in the UI, but I'm not sure if they get deleted instantly or are cleaned up after a while (jtv? ^). In any case, suggestions are shown in order: first the ones actually used in other projects and then the ones which are just suggestions in other projects
[09:18] <jtv> dpm: what gets cleaned up?
[09:18] <dpm> jtv, to give you a bit of background, we're wondering if with global suggestions:
[09:18] <dpm> when you delete a suggestion, is it deleted immediately, or does it take some time to clean up?
[09:18] <dpm> i.e. until it stops appearing as external suggestion in other projects
[09:18] <andrejz> global suggestions use strings from everywhere, but some of those are not of good quality, so we would like to remove them
[09:20] <jtv> There's no such thing as deleting a suggestion.
[09:20] <jtv> They never get deleted.  We have enough trouble as it is on the rare occasions that we do want to delete one of those records!
[09:21] <jtv> But as dpm noted, accepting a suggestion elevates it to the status of "used elsewhere," which means it gets better placement on the page.
[09:22] <jtv> It might be worth cleaning up unused suggestions at some point.
[09:22] <dpm> jtv, so what does the "Use this translation and remove all suggestions" checkbox does, just delete the suggestions from the particular template?
[09:23] <jtv> Even less than that. :)
[09:23] <andrejz> for some strings there are several suggestions.. some are good (meaning in line with accepted vocabulary), some are not so good, and some are bad (mostly suggestions and translations from 2007 and earlier in our case, as there was no QA at that time)
[09:23] <andrejz> We would like to remove this old suggestions
[09:24] <jtv> It removes the suggestions made for that particular message _from the display_ of that particular message.  It does that basically by re-affirming the existing translation, so that the suggestions made there are considered "reviewed."
[09:24] <andrejz> or somehow made a list of terms, which would be preferentially displayed
[09:24] <andrejz> is there a way to achieve that?
[09:26] <jtv> Depends on whether they're "local" suggestions (i.e. suggested right there, for your particular translation) or "global" suggestions (suggestions that the system digs up from elsewhere).
[09:26] <jtv> The local suggestions can be dismissed like I described above; that's a change that's local to your translation.
[09:26] <jtv> But getting rid of the global ones only makes sense if they're unsuitable for _any_ use in that language.
[09:27] <dpm> andrejz, the preferential display already works if the suggestions are actual translations used elsewhere (they are shown further up in the list of suggestions). As per removing unused suggestions, I'll let jtv explain if that's possible
[09:27] <jtv> ^^
[09:27] <andrejz> jtv, we would like to do that, remove the global ones
[09:28] <jtv> That's hard, and undesirable if the suggestions may be of use to somebody else.
[09:28] <andrejz> because we now have an approved list of words, we will use in our translations
[09:28] <andrejz> both us, GNOME, KDE
[09:28] <andrejz> etc
[09:28] <jtv> It's a bit like asking google to remove search results you don't want.  :-)
[09:28] <andrejz> so we would like to encourage the use of that words
[09:28] <andrejz> through global suggestions
[09:29] <jtv> If they are completely and utterly broken (which happens too), that could still make sense of course.
[09:29] <jtv> But again, it's hard, and you'd need a highly effective way of identifying the bad messages.
[09:29] <jtv> The main thing that springs to my mind there is to remove ones that are in the wrong script for their language.
[09:30] <jtv> Global suggestions are basically search results.
[09:30] <jtv> However
[09:30] <andrejz> Not necessarily remove them, just to make the agreed ones higher in the list
[09:30] <jtv> I'm currently working on an experiment that might address this in another way.
[09:30] <andrejz> that would be good enough i guess
[09:31] <dpm> jtv, btw, what's a "local" suggestion? One suggested from elsewhere in the same template one is translating? I didn't know that this existed
[09:31] <jtv> (Technically it could be very hard to rank global suggestions for the page you happen to be looking at—they are already relatively difficult to gather)
[09:32] <jtv> No, a local suggestion is where somebody came to that specific message (in that specific template or now, one that shares translations with it) and entered a translation.
[09:32] <dpm> jtv, oh, I see, thanks for the clarification
[09:32] <jtv> That is what translators do.
[09:33] <jtv> If you maintain a separation between translation and review, as Ubuntu does, a translator is any user who knows the language.  They enter translations, and those go into the system as suggestions.  They are "local" to where the user entered them.
[09:33] <dpm> jtv, yeah, I understand, I was just not familiar with the "local" term
[09:33] <jtv> OK
[09:33] <dpm> We do review all strings like that
[09:34] <jtv> andrejz: anyway, the experiment I'm working on is to present a "here's what an automated translation looks like."  We can then train the translation software on examples from the same context (assuming it's a big one such as Gnome, KDE, or Ubuntu as a whole) so that it will tend to use the same terms.
[09:35] <jtv> Of course we could only do that for a very limited range of projects and languages—it's hugely expensive to do and requires lots of reliable example data.
[09:35] <jtv> Some of the translations are worthless, though a surprising number come out better than human translations.  :-)
[09:37] <andrejz> Sounds good. In our case there is this huge difficulity that translations are NOT the same (even though the string is the same) if they are at different places in the program (for example a menu item, a tooltip, title of a dialog window all have different translations - endings of the words)
[09:37] <andrejz> So in our case this wouldn't be so useful
[09:37] <jtv> Well, that's a reviewer
[09:37] <jtv> 's job
[09:37] <jtv> To look at the alternatives and see which ones are acceptable.
[09:40] <andrejz> yes i agree. for old contributors it works great. but new users often don't know what to choose and it sometimes greatly confuses them. Also we would like to introduce this agreed set of vocabulary to other translators (those who are not a part of language group)
[09:40] <andrejz> if i undestand correctly
[09:40] <andrejz> the more one term is used in translations, more likely it will appear as a suggestion
[09:41] <andrejz> so in the long run mostly good strings will remain, but we were wondering if there is a way to accellerate this process
[10:18] <jtv> andrejz: I'll have to leave soon.  But one note: a translation that is suitable for one project may not be suitable for another.  So you'll always see some strings that are used in another project, and are perfectly good for that project, but not for yours.  The reviewers must be aware of the standards and select based on this.  I don't see any good, easy way to achieve this.
[10:19] <andrejz> ok, thanks for good discussion, i learned a lot about shared messages :)
[10:19] <jtv> The experiment I mentioned is one way to approach it for a limited subset of extensive, well-managed translations.  We're using Dutch Ubuntu translations for the evaluation.  If you're interested (and Dutch isn't _too_ much of a problem :-)  then you're welcome to join the discussions I'm hoping to start about this soon.
[10:19] <jtv> Cya!


[01:03] <squish102> maaz forecast charlotte nc
[01:03] <Maaz> squish102: Tuesday: Clear. High of 22C. Winds less than 5 km/h. Tuesday Night Clear. Low of 10000C. Winds less than 5 km/h. Wednesday Clear. High of 22C. Winds from the NNE at 5 to 10 km/h. Wednesday Night Clear. Low of 10000C. Winds less than 5 km/h. Thursday Partly cloudy in the morning, then clear. High of 22C. Winds less than 5 km/h. Thursday Night Clear. Low
[01:03] <Maaz> of 10000C. Winds from the WSW at 5 to 10 km/h shifting to the NNE after midnight. Friday C…
[01:04] <squish102> maaz, how can the low be 10000C ?
[01:04] <Maaz> squish102: I already know stuff about how
[01:05] <squish102> hmm, i looked at minetest, but i think minecraft server was much better
[01:14] <kulelu88> squish102: is no longer zquish102 :D
[01:18] <squish102> ohh, i tried to join my matrix irc server and disconnected here. then it auto rejoins
[01:23] <zquish102> kulelu88: you running that minetest server?
[01:23] <kulelu88> nopes, someone else is. I think graeme
[01:31] <zquish102> btw kulelu88, i think this is wrong, but we have puppet enterprise today for 500 servers
[01:32] <kulelu88> be careful buying it for your Pis. Could be a per-server license
[01:32] <zquish102> and we pay $63000/year (or maybe purchase price)
[01:32] <kulelu88> 0.o
[01:33] <zquish102> so for 8000 servers that may be expensive.
[01:33] <zquish102> I am sure that price must be wrong, but it was over a couple beers with the guy that has to budget for it
[01:34] <kulelu88> it must be 1 crazy enterprise pricing arrangement, like all enterprise licenses
[01:34] <zquish102> just googled: Of course, the downside to all these benefits is that it will cost you. Puppet Enterprise is tiered based on number of managed nodes and the support plan chosen. Pricing ranges from $112 per node/year with a standard support plan to $199 per node/year with the premium plan
[01:35] <kulelu88> with a 5-man IT team, perhaps enterprise support is worth it
[01:37] <zquish102> hmm, $2.5 million per year... uh that is crazy
[01:38] <kulelu88> that is something we overlooked. the fact that your company will buy a license for enterprise support
[01:40] <zquish102> i think to get the puppet enterprise, the cheapest is $122/year
[01:40] <kulelu88> see the pricing of chef, ansible, salt, etc.
[02:01] <zquish102> salt looks interesting too
[06:27] <andrewlsd_> zsquish zsquish102  (hope you get this)  ansible is probably simplest to get started with, and then if you want the nice dashboards you can get RH Ansible tower, but their are also other monitoring options.
[06:27] <andrewlsd_> Morning #ubuntu-za peeps
[06:28] <andrewlsd> yay. back to my proper nick I hope
[06:30] <andrewlsd> zsquish102: marketing blurb from RH: "Open-sourcing the popular Ansible Role-sharing platform is aimed at advancing automation and enabling Ansible users to set up private Galaxy servers" via
[06:30] <andrewlsd> https://goo.gl/CVS1hA
[06:32] <thatgraemeguy> morning peoples
[06:32] <Maaz> thatgraemeguy: By the way, Cryterion on freenode told me "tell ThatGraemeGuy Hi, updated minetest (Reconpiled to latest) but needs a chmod then switchover. It's located in the bin directory as minetestserver.new , when you get the chance, I don't have the privs to do it :(, lol." 9 hours, 45 minutes and 25 seconds ago
[06:33] <thatgraemeguy> hrmmm
[06:38] <Kilos> hi andrewlsd zquish102 thatgraemeguy inetpro and others
[06:49] <thatgraemeguy> hi Kilos
[09:56] <andrewlsd> Maaz: tell Kilos andrewlsd says hi
[09:56] <Maaz> andrewlsd: Okay, I'll tell Kilos on freenode
[12:21] <magespawn> howdy all
[12:34] <Kilos> hi magespawn
[12:34] <Kilos> hi everyone else also as well too
[12:35] <Kilos> i go sleep now
[12:35] <Kilos> have a great day
[13:43] <Xethron> Oh no :/ missed Kilos
[18:05] <superfly> o/
[18:08] <kulelu88> \o
[18:16] <paddatrapper> o/
[19:45] <kulelu88> hey superfly did you use nginx at your previous job?
[19:46] <superfly> kulelu88: we mostly run on GAE, so whatever Google's web server is, but I've used nginx for a few other things, and it's my preferred web server
[19:48] <kulelu88> Oh Okay, perhaps you can shed some light on this config file: https://github.com/stef/tlsauth/blob/master/flask-demo/nginx-tlsauth.conf ... If I place it under: /etc/nginx/sites-enabled/flask (and adjust the hostname to be my container IP), will it likely work?
[19:53] <kulelu88> superfly: ^^ (in case you missed my reply)
[19:54] <superfly> kulelu88: yeah, sorry, always doing multiple things, better to tag me
[19:55] <superfly> kulelu88: looks fine to me
[19:56] <kulelu88> superfly: what about the index.html part. If I am just making REST requests, how do I adjust that part?
[19:56] <superfly> kulelu88: you don't need to. everything will be passed to uwsgi, and only when those fail will it fall back to index.html
[19:57] <superfly> kulelu88: well, if your client cert is fine, then the request will be passed to uswgi
[20:22] <kulelu88> Thanks superfly . I have created my certs. I am testing it out.


[12:17] <lexflex> hi!
[12:21] <lexflex> question: is upstart not used/activated/installed with a fresh debian 7 install?
[13:51] <Screwba> anyone around?
[13:52] <Screwba> Have a question on UpStart boot up pausing
[13:53] <Screwba> I want to run a script a single time upon boot up which will make some configuration changes to the system.  I have tried creating an UpStart Event but this seems to run and everything else runs with it, it does not pause the boot sequence and wait to finish until the rest of the boot up happens
[13:53] <Screwba> is there a way I can accomplish this easily?
[13:54] <Screwba> I have also tried running through rc.local within a loop watching the script but it still does not complete.  I really want the script to run once I have an IP address
[14:34] <Screwba> ping
[14:56] <xnox> lexflex: sysvinit is default in fresh debian 7 install, you can install upstart package & reboot and use upstart =)
[14:57] <xnox> Screwba: read cookbook, there is a way to "block" other jobs from executing. You mostly likely want your job to start at network-interface IFACE!=lo and before runlevel job is executed.
[14:58] <xnox> Screwba: alternatively you can use an override, e.g. echo "start on started your-magic-job" > /etc/init/runlevel.override, to prevent runlevel 2 event emitted before your job is executed.
[14:59] <xnox> Screwba: i'd recommend to use initctl2dot to generate a graph of all jobs/events on your machine, for you to clearly see & decide where to plug your job in.
[14:59] <lexflex> xnox: but i read in various places "only do this when you know what you're doing" which i dont :)
[15:00] <xnox> Screwba: also maybe look at cloud-init, it's a few upstart jobs that modify system configuration on boot. That's what is used by most cloud providers to modify "stock" image into a "unique" cloud instance.
[15:01] <xnox> lexflex: we are here to help. it does work great, but there can be debian specific bugs/quirks. You will be able to revert back easily by installing sysvinit again.
[15:01] <xnox> lexflex: do think why you want to do this and whether you have time to troubleshoot if something goes wrong.
[15:14] <lexflex> xnox: I'm trying to set up uwsgi and django
[15:15] <xnox> lexflex: debian has eloquent uwsgi init scripts which let you configure a "projects" and it will start them all individually. Not sure if upstart will gain you anything, just for that.
[15:42] <Screwba> xnox: THANKS A LOT...I went through the cookbook and nothing really poked out at me but this guidance is JUST what I need.
[15:42] <lexflex> xnox: the thing is i couldn't find them
[15:42] <lexflex> i didn't use apt-get
[15:43] <xnox> lexflex: apt-cache search uwsgi
[15:43] <xnox> lexflex: apt-cache search django
[15:46] <lexflex> xnox: in the uwsgi doc it said the packages are outdated and i should build from source or something
[15:46] <lexflex> i _think_ thats what i did
[15:46] <lexflex> but now there are no init.d scripts or anything, just a bin
[15:49] <xnox> lexflex: stable/testing has 1.2.3, unstable has 1.9.13, latest upstream is 1.9.14.
[15:49] <xnox> lexflex: if you don't know how to use/compile software from source. It's best for you to use the package from debian, it's properly compiled & easy to use out of the box.
[15:49] <xnox> lexflex: and has proper init.d scripts & simply just works on debian.
[15:50] <xnox> lexflex: does it actually matter to you if you are using 1.2.3 or 1.9.x? are there features you rely on from newer uwsgi? as far as I can tell django would work with either.
[15:50] <lexflex> xnox: is unstable obtainable by apt-get?
[15:56] <Screwba> xnox:  cloud-init is not in the cookbook, should it be?  doing a search online for it now
[15:57] <xnox> Screwba: cloud-init is an upstrem project and a package in ubuntu. Google for cloud-init, or ubuntu cloud images. Or blog posts by smoser / hallyn.
[15:59] <xnox> Screwba: the cookbook is about upstart and  best practises in writting upstart jobs. cloud-init has leveraged upstart jobs, but it does a lot more than just upstart jobs. it can configure your system, install/upgrade packages, resize filesystems, etc....
[16:02] <Screwba> xnox: found it and have read the doc on it...seems pretty cool.  I will see if I am going to use that or use the Blocking method in the cookbook...thanks again, your info is definately valuable.   =)
[16:17] <lexflex> xnox: I guess not. I'm a Linux/Python/Django noob, so :)
[16:18] <lexflex> xnox: but the uwsgi docs say "Suggestion: when you start learning uWSGI try to build from official sources, using distro-supplied packages could bring you lot of headaches. "
[16:19] <lexflex> xnox: and also: "If you think about writing some init.d script for spawning uWSGI, just sit down and realize that we are no more in 1995."
[16:22] <xnox> lexflex: this is not a support channel for uwsgi/django. try #ubuntu for general support.
[16:22] <xnox> lexflex: or uwsgi/django forums.
[16:27] <lexflex> xnox: I know, but you asked me why I wanted to use upstart. and the reason is simply that the uwsgi docs suggest it
[16:28] <lexflex> and also suggests compiling the source, which results in not having init.d. that's how I went trying using upstart
[16:29] <xnox> lexflex: sure, it also suggests other systems as well. it makes sense to use upstart jobs for self-compiled uwsgi, if you already have system running under upstart =) there are other ways as well.
[16:29] <lexflex> xenox: so a upstart related question: what happens when i install upstart and disable the "standard" under debian? will init.d be ignored from that moment on?
[16:30] <xnox> lexflex: i do suggests you $ apt-get install uwsgi, drop a config file for it in /etc/uwsgi.d/ & start developing/running your django apps =)
[16:30] <lexflex> but i want to learn about upstart now that i heard of it :P
[16:30] <xnox> lexflex: upstart does support executing normal init.d scripts, so everything will continue to work.
[16:31] <lexflex> oh, okay. so it will execute the existing ones as well as the upstart ones?
[16:31] <lexflex> why isn't it standard then? why do i "have to know what i do" to replace it?
[16:57] <JanC> sysvinit has been the default for ages, upstart and a bunch of other init systems are available for those who want, but aren't the default because people couldn't agree (yet?) which one should be the default
[16:58] <JanC> but that's more a Debian question than an upstart one really...
[16:58] <lexflex> JanC: well upstart should be the default obviously!! ;)
[16:58] <lexflex> just kidding
[16:58] <JanC> it's the default in Ubuntu & Ubuntu derivatives
[16:59] <lexflex> oh, okay
[16:59] <lexflex> as a Windows veteran I have to wrap my mind around different "init systems"


[00:51] <IdleOne> Hey folks thought you might be interested in knowing the Ubisoft in Montreal is looking for a Linux System Admin. update your C.V. and apply.
[00:52] <IdleOne> s/the/that/
[04:08] <ravibn> I need help
[04:08] <ravibn> any one here Pl respond
[10:42] <bregma> man, people are so impatient
[15:10] <dscassel> bregma: It's a release! It's exciting. :)
[15:35] <dscassel> Is it just me or is http://ubuntu.com horribly broken, style-wise?
[15:35] <dscassel> On Firefox 4.
[15:35] <dscassel> And IE8.
[15:35] <dscassel> (Yeah, I know, I'm at work...)
[15:35]  * genii-around sips
[15:35] <dscassel> And Chrome.
[15:35] <dscassel> Did they just test it on Safari?
[15:37] <genii-around> It looks OK here on my Kubuntu ff4, but what do i know
[15:38] <bregma> looks OK to me, firefox on natty
[15:38] <bregma> but I just managed to get a response
[15:38] <bregma> I guess they were a little hammered for a while
[15:44] <dscassel> Weird. I switched to my SSH tunnel and it's fine.
[15:44] <dscassel> Must be something they're blocking at the firewall here.
[15:44] <dscassel> *sigh*
[16:10] <cyphermox> dscassel, might be due to delays too, maybe the css timed out
[16:13] <dscassel> cyphermox: Yeah, it looks like it's my employer's fault, not Canonical.
[16:14] <dscassel> THey have a BlueCoat filter thingy that gets in the way sometimes.
[16:14] <cyphermox> ok
[22:36]  * genii-around sips