[09:43] <CIA-3> ubiquity: evand * r3850 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/frontend/kde_components/PartMan.py):
[09:43] <CIA-3> ubiquity: Fix references to create_label and allow_change_step in the KDE
[09:43] <CIA-3> ubiquity: frontend's PartMan module (LP: #527932).
[10:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity: evand * r3851 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/components/ubi-console-setup.py):
[10:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity: str.split returns a list of one empty string when splitting on an
[10:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity: empty string.
[10:23] <CIA-3> partman-base: cjwatson * r183 ubuntu/ (52 files in 5 dirs): merge from Debian 138
[10:54] <cjwatson> ev: is anyone working on converting ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu to po4a?  translate-toolkit no longer ships po2html (the changelog says it was too badly broken to use), so u-s-u won't build, but I started on the change and it seems fairly complex
[11:07] <ev> cjwatson: ah, lovely.  I'll take care of it.
[11:22] <cjwatson> ok, cool
[11:23] <cjwatson> I mostly noticed because the current slides/index.html has been mangled onto a single line, including JavaScript comments, which extend to the end of the line :-)
[11:23] <ev> ah, yikes
[11:26] <ev> dear po4a, thanks for not using return codes.  No love, Evan.
[11:27] <cjwatson> you mean for whether something was translated?  you probably just want to let it decide that itself ...?
[11:28] <ev> yeah, good call
[11:28] <cjwatson> it has a --keep option which is sometimes useful for tuning things
[11:29] <ev> indeed, though I'm not sure what a reasonable value for that would be.  I'm inclined to keep it at 0 for at least the time being, so there's not confusion as to why certain translations are not showing up.
[11:30] <cjwatson> yeah, or maybe 1, which would mirror the current behaviour (any translations at all => keep it)
[11:31] <ev> ah, right
[11:31] <ev> thanks
[11:31] <CIA-3> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3849 parted-2.1/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
[11:31] <CIA-3> ubiquity: Automatic update of included source packages: partconf
[11:31] <CIA-3> ubiquity: 1.32ubuntu1~ppa1, partman-base 135ubuntu5~ppa1.
[11:31] <cjwatson> anyway I should stop back-seat-driving :-)
[11:34] <ev> I'm always appreciative of the advice, but I'll interpret that as "I've got other things to do and I'm being polite" ;)
[11:35] <cjwatson> no, I just remembered how it's really annoying to be trying to do something when people are going "but you could paint it RED"
[11:36] <ev> haha, fair enough
[11:36] <CIA-3> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3850 parted-2.1/debian/changelog: releasing version 2.1.29~ppa1
[11:37] <ev> mmm optimal address alignment
[11:38] <cjwatson> I'm still not sure whether partman needs to do anything special to make use of it
[11:38] <cjwatson> do you have any hardware that cares?
[11:39] <ev> not to my knowledge
[11:39] <ev> Scott might, he was asking for it the other week
[11:40] <cjwatson> I think the default is probably cylinder-alignment
[11:40] <cjwatson> probably have to hit it with ped_device_get_optimal_aligned_constraint
[11:40] <cjwatson> or something
[11:42] <cjwatson> hmm, it would help if we built parted against blkid
[11:42] <ev> indeed
[11:57] <cjwatson> ev: what's the status of bug 336751?
[11:59] <ev> if memory serves, michaelforrest doesn't believe it's a bug, and definitely didn't did not like the solution I came up with of providing a transition between pages with a GtkSpinner embedded in the window.
[12:00] <ev> michaelforrest: is that accurate?
[12:01] <michaelforrest> I think that's  a different bug
[12:03] <michaelforrest> having the full page spinner for normal transitions (that are also accompanied by a spinning mouse cursor) is definitely a no-no. This bug you're talking about now is to do with avoiding any new windows being spawned
[12:03] <michaelforrest> I'm not sure what the solution is
[12:03] <michaelforrest> do we need to say 'starting up the partitioner' at all? can't we just spin the mouse cursor like everywhere else and wait for it to appear? (is it in a new window?)
[12:04] <michaelforrest> (by the way, we do have a much nicer idea for this sort of thing in future, but it's not quite designed-up yet!)
[12:05] <michaelforrest> I'll add my comments to the bug, shall I
[12:05] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r215 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (debian/changelog slideshows/kubuntu/slides/chat.html): Fix typo in Kubuntu chat slide.
[12:05] <michaelforrest> ev remind me - how long does it take for that window to appear normally?
[12:06] <michaelforrest> or is it proportional to hard drive size / cpu?
[12:06] <ev> a few seconds
[12:06] <ev> at most
[12:07] <michaelforrest> do you have a screenshot handy?
[12:07] <michaelforrest> (I can get one - not a big deal if not)
[12:07] <ev> of what it looks like with the window up?
[12:07] <cjwatson> partitioner time taken is roughly proportional to the number of partitions
[12:07] <michaelforrest> ok so I've selected "Specify partitions manually" and clicked "Forward"
[12:08] <cjwatson> it's roughly five times faster in lucid now than in karmic
[12:08] <michaelforrest> I would like the button itself to become disabled and contain the progress bar...
[12:08] <cjwatson> but I still have a (not completely unreasonable) test case where it takes 15 seconds or so to start up
[12:08] <cjwatson> obviously when that was a minute plus, it was more of a big deal
[12:10] <cjwatson> maybe now we could just spin
[12:11] <cjwatson> I think part of what annoyed mpt is that you get a dialog popping up after some operations in the manual partitioner, not just at startup
[12:11] <cjwatson> well, maybe not, that's not what his bug says, looking at it
[12:11] <cjwatson> it annoys me :)
[12:12] <michaelforrest> this came up in the dallas design sprint basically - it's just about avoiding new windows
[12:12] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: would it make a difference to have the full-page spinner *just* for partitioner startup, not for other page transitions?
[12:12] <cjwatson> I agree that it is jarring to have it for all page transitions
[12:13] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: that full page thing is just awful and should be forgotten about as soon as possible
[12:13] <cjwatson> ok
[12:13] <michaelforrest> I have responded to the bug - I hope you think my suggestion makes sense
[12:13] <cjwatson> I think it came from mpt's comment "So, I suggest that while waiting for the partitioner to launch, the spinner should be centred in the pane"
[12:13] <michaelforrest> yeah .. no :)
[12:14] <mpt> no?
[12:14] <michaelforrest> so I'm saying we change the text of 'Forward' to 'starting partitioner'
[12:14] <cjwatson> the only query I have there is that it would cause the Forward button to expand very significantly, and push everything else to the left
[12:14] <cjwatson> wouldn't that look odd?
[12:14] <mpt> michaelforrest, so "Back" should temporarily jump to the left?
[12:14] <michaelforrest> so that it's not too disconcerting that it's taking longer than usual
[12:14] <michaelforrest> mpt: I don't see why not. The decision has been made now- it's not like the user is aiming for the button
[12:14] <cjwatson> how about instead we show the partitioner page, but put "Starting partitioner..." in its contents?
[12:15] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: I would be happy with that solution too
[12:15] <cjwatson> and then fill in the proper contents of the page once we know what they should be
[12:15] <michaelforrest> yeah that works for me
[12:15] <cjwatson> (and spin the mouse cursor, of course)
[12:15] <mpt> michaelforrest, because it would look ugly
[12:16] <michaelforrest> but a full screen blank screen with a spinner in the center is beautiful?
[12:16] <mpt> michaelforrest, no, but it would be less ugly. It's the same as (for example) System Preferences panes when they're slow to load.
[12:17] <michaelforrest> I think we have a solution here now - colin's suggestion is informative and responsive in a way that staying on the same page while waiting won't be
[12:17] <michaelforrest> so it's moot
[12:18] <cjwatson> ev: what do you think about my temporary-page-contents option?  I forget how straightforward that is to implement
[12:18] <cjwatson> for operations in the manual partitioner, I think now we can probably just ditch the progress dialog there and use a spinner
[12:19] <ev> cjwatson: manual partitioner operations>  we already do
[12:19] <cjwatson> ok
[12:19] <cjwatson> I'm obviously behind
[12:20] <ev> cjwatson: I'm a bit confused, are you saying we should put this "starting partitioner..." message on just the advanced partition page listview as it starts, or would we also be placing it somewhere on the automatic page as it starts?
[12:21] <cjwatson> I think I mean on the advanced partitioner page as it starts; for the automatic partitioning page, it seems to me that we'd probably be better off with just a spinner
[12:21] <ev> gotcha
[12:21] <cjwatson> particularly now that os-prober output will have been cached from earlier on
[12:21] <cjwatson> (clock-setup runs it)
[12:21] <ev> okay, so would be it be okay to use the existing spinner and progress message location on the advanced partitioning page for this?
[12:22] <ev> indeed
[12:22] <cjwatson> do we have a progress message on the advanced partitioning page, other than in the progress dialog?
[12:22] <mpt> michaelforrest, sure, that sounds fine
[12:24] <ev> cjwatson: yes, http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/transitions.html - ignore the page transitions, skip straight to the advanced partitioning page
[12:24] <ev> assuming I correctly understand your question
[12:26] <mpt> ev, maybe you want to suppress the spinner until/unless the next step has taken more than, say, 2 seconds to display -- otherwise the installer might seem slower than it is
[12:26] <mpt> Otherwise, that looks pretty cool
[12:26] <cjwatson> OK, I'd forgotten that had landed.  Modulo mpt's comments, yeah, I think that's fine
[12:26] <ev> mpt: just to be clear, by spinner we're talking about the spinning mouse cursor, correct?
[12:27] <cjwatson> so we can display the full list box and all the furniture of that page, and just have that in-page spinner and progress message
[12:27] <ev> yarp
[12:27] <mpt> ev, no, the GtkSpinner as shown in that Flash
[12:28] <ev> on the advanced partitioning page?
[12:29] <cjwatson> commented on the bug; does this match everyone's understanding?
[12:31] <ev> yes
[12:38] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r216 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Move from po2html, which is no longer included in Debian, to po4a.
[12:45] <ev> speaking of the slideshow, Dylan became an Ubuntu member last night.  An attempt to gain per-package upload rights will hopefully follow :)
[12:49] <cjwatson> cool
[13:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r217 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/ (5 files):
[13:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: Make each slideshow package Replace and Conflict the ubiquity-
[13:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: slideshow virtual package, to ensure that only one slideshow can be
[13:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: installed at a time and so we can put all of the files in a single
[13:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: location (LP: #526483). The upgrade slideshows do the same with the
[13:17] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: ubiquity-slideshow-upgrade virtual package.
[13:34] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r218 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (debian/changelog update-launchpad-translations.sh):
[13:34] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: Update update-launchpad-translations.sh to reflect recent directory
[13:34] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: layout changes.
[14:01] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r219 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (134 files in 3 dirs): Update translations from Launchpad.
[14:14] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r220 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (debian/changelog po/ubuntu/br.po): Remove possibly inappropriate URL from br translation (LP #528465).
[14:14] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r221 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/changelog: fix LP format on previous commit
[14:26] <cjwatson> cool, parted 2.1 at least seems to minimally work with the installer
[14:26] <ev> awesome
[14:38] <CIA-3> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r222 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 15
[14:43] <CIA-3> partman-base: cjwatson * r184 ubuntu/debian/ (changelog control):
[14:43] <CIA-3> partman-base: Build against parted 2.1. We don't use its improved alignment features
[14:43] <CIA-3> partman-base: yet, but we plan to do so by Lucid.
[14:43] <CIA-3> ubiquity: evand * r3852 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/frontend/kde_ui.py):
[14:43] <CIA-3> ubiquity: Update the KDE frontend with the new slideshow location (as of
[14:43] <CIA-3> ubiquity: ubiquity-slideshow 15).
[14:56] <ev> michaelforrest: would I be correct in assuming that you'll provide the text for the restricted extras page?  Do you know if this is something that Amanda needs to approve before we push it into the archive?
[14:57] <CIA-3> partman-base: cjwatson * r185 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 138ubuntu1
[14:58] <michaelforrest> ev: I am going to brief Roz about it and then yeah, I imaging Amanda will need to approve it too
[14:58] <michaelforrest> ev: however, before anything else, I want a go-ahead from Mark!
[14:58] <ev> yeah
[14:59] <michaelforrest> I think I'll get it started actually
[14:59] <michaelforrest> we'll never get it done otherwise
[14:59] <ev> michaelforrest: by the way, the jockey installer integration didn't make it for lucid
[14:59] <michaelforrest> jockey?
[14:59] <ev> hardware drivers
[14:59] <michaelforrest> that was the thing we needed for my second checkbox to work?
[14:59] <ev> yes
[14:59] <michaelforrest> wah
[14:59] <michaelforrest> ok
[14:59] <ev> sorry, it's entirely my fault
[15:09] <CIA-3> partconf: cjwatson * r835 ubuntu/debian/control: set Vcs-Bzr for Ubuntu
[15:10] <CIA-3> partconf: cjwatson * r836 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.32ubuntu1
[15:13] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: is there any way I can see the work that cody sent you?
[15:14] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: the pre-greeter stuff?
[15:14] <cjwatson> boot a current desktop image, press F6, add " maybe-ubiquity" (no quotes) to the end of the kernel parameters
[15:14] <michaelforrest> ooh ok cool
[15:15] <cjwatson> that's not quite what Cody sent me since I did a bit of polishing, but what he sent just had the left half of the screen red and the right half blue ;-)
[15:15] <michaelforrest> will yesterday's work?
[15:15] <cjwatson> so I figured anything was an improvement
[15:15] <cjwatson> yeah, should do
[15:15] <cjwatson> I'm not sure both actions are hooked up properly, but you'll get the idea
[15:15] <cjwatson> I hate the language selector the way it is right now; I don't think a giant drop-down work
[15:15] <cjwatson> works
[15:17] <cjwatson> TBH, I had wanted DX to take care of making it look pretty :-/
[15:17] <michaelforrest> yeah I would think we would be doing that
[15:17] <michaelforrest> do I have to select 'install' or 'try' ubuntu on gfxboot?
[15:18] <michaelforrest> ooh mental.
[15:18] <michaelforrest> (I can see it now)
[15:18] <michaelforrest> yeah the actual spec is to have a language selector first, then the try/install screen
[15:18] <michaelforrest> certainly no giant dropdown
[15:18] <michaelforrest> ok there's no way this is landing in lucid
[15:19] <cjwatson> oh, it is?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lucid/GfxbootUpdate is not that specific
[15:19] <cjwatson> just says "will include language selection"
[15:19] <cjwatson> do you have a better spec somewhere else with mockups?  I've been asking for visual design bits for this for months :-/
[15:19] <michaelforrest> (hold on - getting something)
[15:20] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: go here: http://use-case-mapper.canonical.com/specifications/0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY
[15:20] <michaelforrest> that's my spec-in-progress
[15:20] <cjwatson> can I link to that from the public wiki (even if not everyone can actually see it)?
[15:20] <michaelforrest> you have to have access to the google doc
[15:21] <michaelforrest> I could make the google doc public
[15:21] <michaelforrest> but I don't think it's all public yet
[15:21] <cjwatson> I don't mind, I just want somewhere to keep the link
[15:21] <michaelforrest> ok that's fine
[15:21] <ev> I was wondering about this...
[15:21] <ev> do we really want a greeter
[15:21] <ev> I mean, if the spec is to provide the option after language selection, why not just start ubiquity, and have it provide that interface
[15:21] <michaelforrest> ev: I would be fine with taht
[15:22] <michaelforrest> *that
[15:22] <cjwatson> that's fine for installation but doesn't work for the live session
[15:22] <ev> exiting back to the live session like it does on crash when the "try ubuntu" option is selected
[15:22] <michaelforrest> yeah I  thought there was some technical reason we can't
[15:22] <cjwatson> going through ubiquity just for language selection for the live session seems really weird to me
[15:23] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: maybe weird from a technical perspective— would it make any difference to a normal user though?
[15:23] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: and it sounds like it might make life easier
[15:23] <michaelforrest> i.e. not having to involve dx
[15:23] <cjwatson> I actually thought I meant that it would look weird
[15:23] <michaelforrest> because it would say "Install" at the top?
[15:24] <cjwatson> well, the whole interface is oriented towards installation
[15:24] <cjwatson> and anyone who's done it before (or seen it in one of the many books that has installer screenshots) might recognise that as the installer and panic
[15:24] <cjwatson> or so it seems to me ...
[15:25] <michaelforrest> I don't think that would necessarily be a problem
[15:25] <michaelforrest> especially if we called the window "Ubuntu"
[15:25] <michaelforrest> instead of "Installer"
[15:25] <michaelforrest> it would just be a language selector and then a 'try or install' screen
[15:25] <cjwatson> (insert comment about derivative branding here, but ...)
[15:26] <michaelforrest> It's a CD user's first experience
[15:26] <michaelforrest> ok so I think evan is right
[15:26] <ev> my only concern with what I'm suggesting is going from the live CD desktop back to the installer
[15:26] <michaelforrest> what happens then?
[15:27] <ev> well, I'm wondering how we approach that.  Do we simply restart the session?
[15:27] <cjwatson> we could still make it controlled by that boot option, so that the "Try Ubuntu" button only appears if you're in the boot flow
[15:27] <cjwatson> and then going from the live CD desktop to the installer is just starting it in a window, as before
[15:27] <cjwatson> do you mean going from the installer to the live CD desktop?
[15:27] <michaelforrest> oh right I see
[15:27] <ev> live CD desktop to the installer, how do we get rid of gnome panel and friends
[15:28] <cjwatson> don't?
[15:28] <michaelforrest> yeah don't
[15:28] <ev> oh, cool
[15:28] <michaelforrest> it's cool that you can still do stuff while it's installing
[15:28] <ev> I like simple solutions
[15:28] <michaelforrest> first thing I liked about ubuntu :)
[15:28] <ev> hooray
[15:28] <cjwatson> Mark explicitly asked for that, way back in Montreal
[15:28] <cjwatson> (er - the summit for DappeR)
[15:28] <cjwatson> Dapper
[15:29] <michaelforrest> so we're adding the language selector / try+install to ubiquity, and then filtering those screens unless we're in the 'boot flow'?
[15:29] <cjwatson> the language selector's already there, which saves some work
[15:29] <cjwatson> I think what ev is suggesting is to add a "Try Ubuntu without installing" button to the language selection screen?
[15:29] <cjwatson> it wouldn't offer keyboard selection, but that's probably OK since it's accessible in System -> Preferences
[15:30] <michaelforrest> no we'll have a language selection screen on its own, then a try/install screen
[15:30] <cjwatson> oh
[15:30] <ev> actually, I'm not suggesting any changes to this particular part of the design spec
[15:30] <cjwatson> ok, I suppose that's workable, as long as it's conditional so that it only happens when we're in this workflow
[15:30] <ev> was just suggesting that its implementation did not need a custom gdm greeter
[15:30] <michaelforrest> the design will be the same - we're talking about the implementation
[15:31] <michaelforrest> so happy about that 20px padding, by the way :)
[15:31] <cjwatson> ev: so you're saying that ubiquity's language page could be the implementation of the language selector in this specification, right?
[15:31] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: I bet netbook users aren't ;-)
[15:31] <ev> yes
[15:31] <michaelforrest> yeah I've been trying to test it on a netbook
[15:31] <michaelforrest> with no joy :(
[15:31] <cjwatson> we were already at the very edge of the screen limits on a number of systems
[15:31] <ev> that the live CD boots straight into the ubiquity-only session with the new design
[15:32] <cjwatson> ok, and then an optional plugin on the page after the language selector?
[15:32] <ev> bingo
[15:33] <michaelforrest> hmm - okay I'm talking to otto again - he is saying 'I hope they didn't make the window bigger instead of making the content smaller'
[15:33] <michaelforrest> (re: padding)
[15:33] <ev> ...I don't recall the request being phrased in that way
[15:33] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: BTW (UX spec) how is the user supposed to do advanced partitioning when they haven't set up their keyboard yet?
[15:33] <michaelforrest> no it wasn't
[15:34] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: this is why I asked you for feedback before xmas
[15:34] <ev> cjwatson: surely you can do it with the mouse
[15:34] <michaelforrest> I am glad you are now looking at it
[15:34] <ev> unless you have some odd mountpoitns
[15:34] <ev> mountpoints*
[15:34] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: before xmas, I was in a deathmarch customer project which was occupying about 200% of my work time - I was literally working 16-hour days for weeks at a stretch
[15:34] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: have a look at http://junction.local/specifications/0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY/use_cases/6_3
[15:34] <michaelforrest> sure, not a problem
[15:34] <cjwatson> ev: certainly in general it accepts keyboard input
[15:35] <ev> fair point
[15:35] <michaelforrest> I have thought about it though, trust me - have a look at use case 6.3
[15:35] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: I can't see junction.local :)
[15:35] <ev> s/junction.local/use-case-mapper.canonical.com/, I think
[15:35] <michaelforrest> oops
[15:35] <michaelforrest> sorry
[15:36] <michaelforrest> I didn't include a keyboard step in the variation (2.b) but I imagined if they REALLY needed to set up the keyboard, then it's in the dropdown
[15:36] <cjwatson> ah, I see what you mean now
[15:36] <michaelforrest> by the way - I have an interactive mockup of the partition tool now
[15:36] <ev> michaelforrest: me too :)
[15:36] <michaelforrest> I just need to get it packaged (Adobe Air packaged - not proper packaged ;))
[15:37] <ev> very keen to see the differences between ours, as I'm curious if you used any kind of standard selection hints
[15:37] <michaelforrest> and also I think we decided not to throw up gparted after all - unless this clarification changes that?
[15:37] <cjwatson> I'm also a bit concerned about deferring full locale setup to first boot
[15:37] <cjwatson> gparted die die die
[15:37] <ev> the default gnome way of putting a brown background on the item is quite ugly with a green/orange/red box in front of it
[15:37] <michaelforrest> ok if we hate gparted, I can accomodate that :)
[15:37] <cjwatson> we used to use gparted in the installer, in dapper
[15:37] <cjwatson> it was a nightmare
[15:38] <cjwatson> likewise qtparted
[15:38] <ev> we agreed to replace gparted with throwing up the advanced partitioning page in a window
[15:38] <ev> at the sprint, if memory serves
[15:38] <cjwatson> yeah, I think so
[15:38] <michaelforrest> ok — I was just trying to help you only have to maintain one partitioning tool
[15:38] <ev> though my question was, if the user runs through that, does it skip past the automatic partitioner
[15:38] <michaelforrest> yeah that's right - I need to update the spec
[15:38] <cjwatson> we only have to maintain one partitioning tool right now :)
[15:38] <ev> I imagine it would have to
[15:38] <ev> lol
[15:38] <cjwatson> gparted maintains itself and we don't involve it in the installer workflow
[15:39] <michaelforrest> so shouldn't gparted just go in the bin and we give people the 'advanced partitioner' then?
[15:39] <michaelforrest> or should I just shut up and not try to understand..
[15:39] <michaelforrest> (I mean on the desktop)
[15:40] <cjwatson> so mostly that would sort of be my vote except that the advanced partitioner isn't really set up to be a standalone desktop app
[15:40] <ev> partman isn't in general
[15:40] <cjwatson> it has some expectations which hold well during installation, but not so much outside that
[15:41] <michaelforrest> ok so ev - about the window size - if it's already to the limit without the padding, then we need to make the content smaller to accommodate the padding
[15:41] <cjwatson> gparted and partman both use the same core partitioning backend, but they have different business logic on top of it which is optimised for different purposes
[15:43] <ev> michaelforrest: uhm, easier said than done.
[15:43] <michaelforrest> ev: sorry that wasn't really clear before  - I didn't really think about it - but it was pretty obvious to otto, and he knows about that sort of thing..
[15:43] <michaelforrest> yeah I imagine so
[15:43] <michaelforrest> but we need to do it
[15:43] <michaelforrest> run a script on the gtk xml?
[15:43] <ev> sure, I'll see what I can do, but it's going to be difficult to shave 20px off each side, so I'm not making any promises
[15:43] <michaelforrest> to avoid fiddling with glade ?
[15:43] <cjwatson> there's no absolute positioning or sizing in there
[15:44] <ev> it's a matter of having too much content
[15:44] <ev> the text on the user setup page, for example, takes up a lot of space
[15:44] <michaelforrest> I'm sure you can fit it in
[15:45] <cjwatson> this would be the second or third attempt to squash things down, I think
[15:45] <michaelforrest> from a design perspective, it's a major difference in how professional it looks
[15:45] <michaelforrest> ev there is more than enough space on the user setup page judging from the screenshot I'm looking at
[15:46] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: the thing is that the notebook format (and general sanity - we don't want to be growing and shrinking the window in the middle) means that the installer grows to the size of the largest page
[15:46] <ev> hrm, indeed
[15:46] <ev> I could have sworn that was where it grows though
[15:47] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: yeah I'm aware of that
[15:47] <ev> I'll look into it and see what I can shave off
[15:47] <cjwatson> might be horizontal growth on one page and vertical growth on another?  I'm not sure how smart gtk is ...
[15:47] <ev> gtk, smart, hah
[15:47] <cjwatson> could be worse, could be qtdesigner *shudder*
[15:47] <ev> but indeed, I'll watch out for that
[15:47] <ev> thanks
[15:47] <ev> hahahahaha
[15:47] <ev> oh god
[15:47] <ev> NEVER AGAIN
[15:48] <michaelforrest> I am currently writing a spec for a glade-style tool..
[15:48] <michaelforrest> if I have to build it myself, I will...
[15:48] <ev> michaelforrest: while I have you here...
[15:48] <ev> What are your thoughts on the following for the "unable to install restricted extras (dvd, mp3, flash) during install because we didn't have a network connection" scenario.  On first boot you get the following window:
[15:48] <ev> http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/update-notifier-restricted-extras.png
[15:48] <ev> and if you click run this action now, you get:
[15:48] <ev> http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/software-center-restricted-extras.png
[15:48] <ev> This is similar to how incomplete language support is handled.  That is, when you do an install with a language that we don't include langpacks for on the CD (because they take up way too much space), you see an update-manager notification that tells you:
[15:48] <ev> The language support files for your selected language seem to be incomplete.
[15:48] <ev>  You can install the missing components by clicking on "Run this action now"
[15:48] <ev>  and follow the instructions. An active internet connection is required.
[15:48] <ev>  If you would like to do this at a later time, please use "System ->
[15:48] <ev>  Administration -> Language Support" instead.
[15:49] <ev> cjwatson: if you have any thoughts as well, I'm keen to hear them
[15:49] <michaelforrest> ok the language needs to change a lot
[15:49] <ev> sure
[15:49] <ev> it was a quick mock up
[15:49] <cjwatson> ev: technically I think it's fine, I'll defer to Michael on the design obv.
[15:49] <ev> I'm more concerned about the workflow
[15:50] <michaelforrest> I would like to unify any post-installation steps into one place if at all possible
[15:50] <cjwatson> if we don't have a network connection during install, then we need to ask later, and *right now, this release* we only really have one way to do that
[15:50] <michaelforrest> but I would want to talk to mpt / johnlea about how to do this
[15:50] <cjwatson> independent of future first-boot work
[15:50] <cjwatson> assuming you're talking about lucid here ...
[15:50] <ev> yeah, lucid
[15:51] <michaelforrest> ev: I would kinda like to just go ahead and install it in the background silently (ducks)
[15:51] <michaelforrest> (*ducks*)
[15:51] <ev> I'm keen to get something in place, so Steve Langasek doesn't laugh hysterically at me when I ask to land this.
[15:51] <ev> well, this is for the case where we don't have a network connection
[15:51] <ev> and thus cannot do it until post-install, when a network connection is established
[15:51] <michaelforrest> yeah so it's no help popping it up before an internet connection is available
[15:52] <ev> and as far as installing it in the background, I think Amanda might take issue with that :)
[15:52] <michaelforrest> chrome installed a load of new shit in the background without asking me! crazy. whatever will they do next.
[15:52] <michaelforrest> I can't say I was that impressed ;)
[15:52] <ev> michaelforrest: ah, indeed, though our current stack makes that difficult unless we're trying to wget http://www.ubuntu.com/am_I_online in a cron job
[15:53] <michaelforrest> so on first network connection, it's gonna check for updates and there's gonna be that {!} icon
[15:53] <michaelforrest> ?
[15:53] <ev> on first boot, regardless of network connection, the first mentioned window will show up
[15:53] <michaelforrest> is that how it works? or is the update check only on a cron job?
[15:53] <michaelforrest> yeah I don't want anything popping up like that
[15:53] <michaelforrest> but can we roll it into the first update process?
[15:53] <cjwatson> I think it's a cron job
[15:54] <cjwatson> I would love to have a way to queue something for the next time apt runs
[15:54] <michaelforrest> We're always going to want to install updates on the first install right?
[15:54] <cjwatson> I've been wishing for that for about 5 years
[15:54] <michaelforrest> so why can't we make it check for updates on first network connection?
[15:54] <cjwatson> it would be very handy for language packs
[15:54] <ev> indeed, I think this very much mirrors the langpack case
[15:55] <cjwatson> so first time you connect to the network, it automatically starts downloading stuff to make sure that you can't use the network straight away? :-)
[15:55] <michaelforrest> I'd like to just roll everything into that process - language packs, updates, restricted extras
[15:55] <michaelforrest> no - it says 'updates are available - it is recommended that you install these now'
[15:55] <cjwatson> the "do I have any updates" download is quite big in itself
[15:55] <michaelforrest> really? why?
[15:56] <cjwatson> downloads all the Packages files ...
[15:56] <cjwatson> why> because we have a lot of packages in Ubuntu
[15:56] <ev> which would be very unfortunate if you're on a 3G dongle and it runs
[15:56] <michaelforrest> anyway I think it's a safe assumption that on first boot, the user needs to install updates, so we don't necessarily need to check
[15:56] <michaelforrest> am I wrong?
[15:56] <michaelforrest> no :)
[15:57] <cjwatson> my concern is basically that we're putting more and more cute things in the way of the user playing with their new toy
[15:57] <michaelforrest> we're not!
[15:57] <cjwatson> I think updates should be later
[15:57] <michaelforrest> we're making sure the toy is ready before they start trying to play with ti!
[15:57] <michaelforrest> *it!
[15:57] <ev> lets not confuse updates with what we're trying to do here
[15:57] <cjwatson> the toy is ready upon installation
[15:57] <ev> I think it's the wrong language
[15:57] <michaelforrest> not to watch youtube videos
[15:57] <michaelforrest> not to listen to mp3s
[15:58] <michaelforrest> these are REALLY important use cases
[15:58] <ev> to be clear, we're talking about a set of packages that need to be installed, not updated
[15:58] <cjwatson> right, installation is a different thing
[15:58] <michaelforrest> sure - so we don't have to call it 'updates'
[15:58] <ev> ubuntu-restricted-extras, language-pack-$LL, ...
[15:58] <cjwatson> installing updates takes HOURS
[15:58] <cjwatson> or can easily do
[15:59] <michaelforrest> this is a problem. it also affects software center
[15:59] <michaelforrest> (I am going to correct that to *centre, as we probably all agree on that spelling)
[16:00] <ev> haha
[16:00] <michaelforrest> I think I need to work with people to get the first-use use cases formalised
[16:01] <michaelforrest> ev - don't do this 'restricted extras not yet available' thing - just don't do anything if there wasn't network for now
[16:01] <ev> michaelforrest: isn't that more confusing?  We've asked the user if they want to add this package, they've said yes, and we haven't installed it
[16:02] <michaelforrest> I mean - don't ask if there's no network during install
[16:02] <ev> or are you suggesting that we make showing this page conditional on wget http://www.ubuntu.com/am_I_online working?
[16:02] <cjwatson> I really want to get pdiffs landed so that incremental checks for updates are quicker, but the last time I tried, it got derailed into a bluesky discussion of how to redesign the entire archive, which was a bit unhelpful
[16:02] <michaelforrest> yeah basically. for now.
[16:02] <ev> ah, okay
[16:02] <cjwatson> but I suppose incrementals aren't so important here
[16:05] <mpt> ev, cjwatson: michaelforrest and I had a chat about the partitioner feedback stuff. It was partly a miscommunication and partly me just being clingy. :-) What cjwatson summed up in the bug report we're both happy with.
[16:06] <ev> software-center could make the assumption that anyone passing a list of packages to be installed knew they would be in the cache after an update, and do both an update and install if and only if the user presses yes on the "there are more packages that need to be installed to complete the Ubuntu set up." question
[16:06] <ev> mpt: lovely
[16:08] <cjwatson> mpt: great, thanks
[16:08] <michaelforrest> how big are security updates?
[16:09] <michaelforrest> usually? if there is a usually?
[16:10] <mpt> michaelforrest, it increases steadily based on how long it's been since that version of Ubuntu was released
[16:11] <mpt> e.g. if you installed 9.10 now, it would be ... a couple of hundred MB, I think
[16:11] <mpt> (iirc, from doing it a couple of weeks ago)
[16:11] <michaelforrest> right ok
[16:11] <mpt> whereas if you did it back in November, it would be just a few MB
[16:11] <michaelforrest> we're wondering about having a rationalised updates screen with a list like
[16:11] <michaelforrest> - proprietary drivers / restricted extras  [29Mb]
[16:11] <michaelforrest>     - security [100MB]
[16:11] <michaelforrest>     - language [290KB]
[16:11] <michaelforrest>     - system updates [140MB]
[16:11] <michaelforrest>     - application updates [200MB]
[16:12] <michaelforrest> (with selective updates , and this list, being the second choice)
[16:12] <michaelforrest> (made up numbers, of course !)
[16:12] <mpt> yeah, it would be nice to say "oh, sheesh, I don't have enough quota to download all that now, let me get just the security updates"
[16:13] <michaelforrest> I would like to put something much nicer than 'proprietary drivers / restricted extras' :)
[16:14] <michaelforrest> I think if we're prepared to flash up 'updates are available' on a regular basis, then we should be happy to pop up a dialog box like this when the internet first becomes available
[16:15] <michaelforrest> I'm going to write some use cases for first-login and we can discuss them in our tuesday desktop design team meeting
[16:16] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: what is the first thing you do after  you install ubuntu ?
[16:16] <michaelforrest> personally
[16:19] <cjwatson> start a terminal window and ssh :-)
[16:19] <cjwatson> probably install a few packages I know I want
[16:19] <michaelforrest> ok
[16:20] <cjwatson> and I guess I start a web browser, though think blogs rather than youtube in my case
[16:22] <michaelforrest> cool.
[16:22] <michaelforrest> you're use case #1.
[16:22] <michaelforrest> (well - 5.1)
[16:22] <ev> michaelforrest: by the way, this is what I've come up with so far for the automatic partitioner working off the design spec: <http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/automatic-paritioner.png>.  Could I perhaps have access to that AIR package, so I can bring it more in line with what you're looking for over the weekend, should I find some spare time?
[16:23] <michaelforrest> ok lemme have a crack at that now
[16:23] <michaelforrest> exciting to see it already though!
[16:23] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: so the one thing left unresolved by the above discussion of the installation flow is how we represent that you can press a key to get at the full boot menu
[16:24] <ev> the redesign excites me, so I worked on it on the plane to/from Pycon.
[16:24] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: yes that is true.
[16:24] <michaelforrest> ev :)
[16:24] <cjwatson> I wonder if there are any stock icons showing a keyboard key
[16:24] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: ok - so I am wondering if we should show anything. it's a very complex piece of information to attempt to convey graphically
[16:25] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: apple don't mention anything about specialised boot options - you find out about them on forums. also, we could put something in the CD inlay
[16:26] <michaelforrest> we've had a brainstorm, including contributions from our resident anthropologist
[16:26] <cjwatson> I don't mind that so much, but I would like to have some indication of when you need to press the key (this is a major flaw with Macs)
[16:26] <michaelforrest> the tricky bit is to say 'you can press a key here' without saying 'please press a key'
[16:26] <cjwatson> even if that's just an Ubuntu logo or something
[16:27] <cjwatson> the Mac problem is that by the time you see anything other than a grey screen, it's too late :)
[16:28] <michaelforrest> so I think this is information that is of interest to technical users and people with particular accessibility issues
[16:28] <michaelforrest> and hopefully nobody else will ever need to know
[16:28] <michaelforrest> I would like to think that technical users will know how to get help
[16:28] <michaelforrest> so the best suggestion we had was to put the accessibility icon there
[16:29] <michaelforrest> I think that makes the right trade off of 'normal people won't press it', without excluding people who need it for accessibility reasons
[16:29] <michaelforrest> what do you think?
[16:30] <cjwatson> hmm, I prefer the Ubuntu logo I think
[16:31] <cjwatson> it doesn't invite people to press a key
[16:32] <cjwatson> something about using the accessibility icon for this doesn't sit right with me, I'm not quite sure what
[16:32] <michaelforrest> it's that it's not 100% accurate, probably :)
[16:32] <cjwatson> hmm, no
[16:32] <michaelforrest> however, I think it works perfectly if one allows artistic license..
[16:33] <cjwatson> hmm, the accessibility icon isn't the wheelchair logo any more is it?
[16:33] <michaelforrest> no it's that arms-out man
[16:34] <cjwatson> do you mean the one that's next to Universal Access?
[16:34] <cjwatson> right, that one
[16:34] <michaelforrest> which actually feels more apt
[16:34] <michaelforrest> yeah
[16:34] <cjwatson> that feels better, I think there was something about Ubuntu displaying an icon normally used on toilets as it booted that I didn't like :)
[16:34] <michaelforrest> indeed.
[16:35] <cjwatson> centre of the screen, or off in a corner?
[16:35] <cjwatson> might be worth greyscaling it?
[16:35] <michaelforrest> something like in this first pic http://use-case-mapper.canonical.com/specifications/0AU5sFuLRpCpBZGZra2pqY2pfMTAxZ25rcnBnNXY/use_cases/6_1
[16:35] <michaelforrest> the icon instead of the text
[16:35] <michaelforrest> so in a grey band along the bottom
[16:36] <michaelforrest> or a lower-contrast band
[16:36] <michaelforrest> if we're on black
[16:36] <cjwatson> remember that by the time the logo and the boot progress bar appear, it's too late
[16:36] <cjwatson> though I could certainly display the logo
[16:36] <cjwatson> that looks like a spinner in the middle though?
[16:36] <michaelforrest> can't we put the logo on that screen ?
[16:36] <cjwatson> we're on black, yeah
[16:37] <cjwatson> I can display the logo certainly, it was just the thing that looks like a spinner that confused me
[16:37] <michaelforrest> yeah sorry - I guess that's the next screen then
[16:37] <michaelforrest> or whatever we have. it's meant to be abstracted from the design
[16:37]  * cjwatson can't afford too much abstraction at the moment :)
[16:38] <cjwatson> ok, I think I can do that
[16:38] <cjwatson> not sure what a lower-contrast band on a black background means though
[16:38] <michaelforrest> yeah I have a new photoshop document open to help de-abstractify.
[16:58] <michaelforrest> cjwatson: where do you suppose I might find an icon with a picture of a keyboard on it?
[17:01] <cjwatson> System -> Preferences?
[17:02] <ogra> locate keyboard |grep png
[17:02] <ogra> should give you plenty
[17:02] <cjwatson> not sure they're very *good* icons, but ...
[17:24] <michaelforrest> ok cjwatson- basically, otto is looking at this next week
[17:24] <michaelforrest> we have a guy in to help with icons
[17:24] <michaelforrest> my efforts, sadly, are rubbish.
[17:25] <michaelforrest> so I'm going to focus on getting evan his installer air demo
[17:26] <cjwatson> how about I go ahead with the accessibility icon thing
[17:26] <cjwatson> it seems workable enough
[17:26] <cjwatson> I can't put the icon in place until I have something I can land as the default workflow for lucid anyway, of course
[21:06] <michaelforrest> cjwatson:  go ahead with the accessibility icon thing. we'll see how it turns out.
[21:07] <cjwatson> michaelforrest: ok, cool.  thanks.


[00:31] <turno> soldats: that worked, thank you
[00:31] <soldats> awesome
[00:31] <soldats> im glad
[00:38] <turno> thats a really difficult factory setting
[00:40] <soldats> im thinking of asking to have it implemented as a clickable feature for hardy
[01:09] <Kniggit> hi
[01:10] <soldats> hello
[01:10] <Kniggit> just installed 7.10
[01:11] <Kniggit> so far so good
[01:13] <soldats> cool
[01:15] <Kniggit> I'm still downloading system updates, just installed restricted nvidia driver
[01:15] <Kniggit> hopefully then I can run at the monitor's native res
[01:15] <soldats> yuh
[01:20] <JohnnyNoBueno> I'm a total n00b.  Anyone have any ideas on getting an SIIG scsi controller to work on a fresh install of 7.10?
[02:39] <wsguede> hey I am installing xubuntu via alternate cd
[02:39] <wsguede> and its stuck at gathering information for the install report
[02:40] <wsguede> how long does it normally take to finish
[02:40] <wsguede> ?
[02:43] <wsguede> anything
[02:44] <soldats> did you run the md5 on the cd
[02:45] <wsguede> if it did it on its own then yeah, but I didn't go out of my way to do it
[02:46] <wsguede> I ran the alternate cd step by step as it gave me
[02:46] <soldats> !md5
[02:46] <ubotu> To verify your Ubuntu ISO image (or other files for which an MD5 checksum is provided), see http://help.ubuntu.com/community/VerifyIsoHowto or http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/LQ_ISO/Checking_the_md5sum_in_Windows
[02:47] <soldats> also make sure you have a good connection to the internet if your doing with internet as well
[02:48] <wsguede> what do you mean doing it with the internet? and by md5 do you mean check to see if the cd is good? because I did do that a little be ago, and the cd has no faults
[02:48] <soldats> ok is it an internet install
[02:48] <wsguede> no
[02:49] <wsguede> I am using the cd
[02:49] <wsguede> I have the internet connected to it
[02:51] <wsguede> the install is done, its just hanging on gathering info about the install... the cd has been taken out
[02:53] <soldats> maybe you should have left the cd in until it tells you to take it out
[02:53] <wsguede> it did
[02:53] <wsguede> infact
[02:53] <wsguede> it shot out the cd
[02:53] <wsguede> and was all like
[02:53] <wsguede> get this shit outta here
[02:53] <soldats> im really not so sure since i havent experimented with the alternate cd yet
[02:53] <soldats> lol
[02:53] <wsguede> hmm
[02:53] <soldats> did you try a rebot
[02:54] <wsguede> I did before
[02:54] <soldats> s/rebot/reboot
[02:54] <wsguede> this is like the 400th time I have installed this thing
[02:54] <wsguede> it hangs here for a while
[02:54] <wsguede> and so I figured that it was ok to hard boot
[02:54] <wsguede> so I did
[02:54] <soldats> is it possible to try the livecd
[02:54] <wsguede> and it brought up grub 1.5
[02:54] <wsguede> I will get to that
[02:55] <wsguede> so grub 1.5
[02:55] <wsguede> is like a cmd prompt
[02:55] <wsguede> ok
[02:55] <wsguede> so the live cd
[02:55] <wsguede> I dled it twice (torrent)
[02:55] <wsguede> and both cds didn't work
[02:56] <wsguede> it goes to the screen where it asks to install or less grafix... blah blah
[02:56] <wsguede> then I hit install / try
[02:56] <wsguede> and then it goes blank
[02:56] <soldats> hmm strange
[02:56] <wsguede> it looks like it loads but it doesn't I guess
[02:56] <wsguede> like the monitor is off
[02:56] <soldats> on the alternate cd doest it drop to a cmd
[02:56] <wsguede> when?
[02:56] <wsguede> when I put it in
[02:57] <wsguede> it goes to the same type of screen as the life cd... but instead of try/install, it says install via text mode or something
[02:57] <soldats> after reboot or install
[02:57] <wsguede> after this
[02:57] <wsguede> after where I am now
[02:58] <wsguede> if I hard boot it it goes to something like a cmd
[02:58] <wsguede> it says loading grub 1.5
[02:58] <soldats> ok well at the cmd type startx
[02:58] <wsguede> that's not one of the choices it give me (if I can remember right
[02:59] <soldats> it doesnt tell you to log in either
[02:59] <wsguede> I don't want to hard boot it right now just in case
[02:59] <wsguede> no
[02:59] <wsguede> no login
[02:59] <wsguede> just some cmd
[02:59] <soldats> hmm, another suggestion would be to install in textmode cause the gui still has problems i believe
[02:59] <wsguede> like a grub cmd
[02:59] <wsguede> yeah that's what the alternate cd is
[02:59] <wsguede> all text mode
[03:00] <soldats> hmm see i havent used it yet. i probly should so ill be more fluent in its problems
[03:01] <soldats> !install
[03:01] <ubotu> Ubuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues - Don't want to use a CD? Try http://tinyurl.com/3exghs - See also !automate
[03:01] <wsguede> if I install 6.06 can I upgrade to to 7.1
[03:01] <soldats> yes
[03:01] <soldats> sudo apt-get update
[03:06] <wsguede> I might end up doing that
[03:07] <soldats> its worth a shot but suggest looking into the forums for similar problems or the pages ubotu spewed out
[03:07] <wsguede> where are those?
[03:08] <soldats> !install
[03:08] <ubotu> Ubuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues - Don't want to use a CD? Try http://tinyurl.com/3exghs - See also !automate
[03:08] <soldats> maybe common problem on installs page
[03:08] <wsguede> nope
[03:08] <wsguede> looked there
[03:08] <soldats> hmm damn
[03:09] <soldats> !forums
[03:09] <ubotu> The Ubuntu forums can be found at http://www.ubuntuforums.org. There is also a channel on IRC Freenode #ubuntuforums.
[03:09] <soldats> i wish i could help more but id have to look at it
[03:09] <wsguede> at the screen?
[03:10] <soldats> err be in front of it
[03:10] <wsguede> haha litterally the only thing on the screen right now is a bar stuck at 85% saying
[03:10] <wsguede> Gathering information for installation report
[03:10] <soldats> wierd ive never heard of that happening yet
[03:14] <wsguede> yeah the forums dong help much either
[03:14] <wsguede> some guy had this kind of problem with reg ubuntu, no one answered him
[03:15] <soldats> hmm shitty
[03:15] <wsguede> yeah
[03:15] <wsguede> I have burned like 4-5 cds just for this shit
[03:16] <soldats> is it a desktop
[03:16] <wsguede> yeah
[03:16] <wsguede> 2.7 pent 4 256 mb mem
[03:17] <wsguede> old as shit
[03:17] <wsguede> only supposed to need 64 mb mem to install xubuntu with the alternate cd
[03:18] <soldats> 2.7ghrtz
[03:18] <wsguede> eyah
[03:19] <soldats> mine crappier
[03:19] <wsguede> yeah I don't know
[03:20] <soldats> i had a slightly similar problem but it turned out to be the cd drive not responding and i put in a new one and it worked flawlessly
[03:20] <soldats> but you get way further than i did
[03:20] <wsguede> yeah
[03:20] <soldats> s/get/got
[03:20] <wsguede> my other drive did the same thing
[03:20] <wsguede> ?
[03:20] <wsguede> s/get/got?
[03:21] <soldats> instead of saying *got
[03:21] <wsguede> ok
[03:26] <wsguede> I am going to dl the 6.06 and then just upgrade it from that
[03:27] <soldats> cool
[03:32] <mindframe> what's hardy status for xubuntu right now?
[03:32] <wsguede> you can dl it
[03:32] <mindframe> any known critical bugs?
[03:32] <wsguede> alpha 3
[03:32] <wsguede> http://torrent.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/hardy/
[03:33] <mindframe> i'd be upgrading from an existing 7.10 install
[03:33] <wsguede> ok
[03:36] <soldats> !hardy
[03:36] <ubotu> Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Discussion and support in #ubuntu+1, NOT #ubuntu
[03:37] <soldats> not in releasing stages yet
[03:38] <wsguede> soldats: ok so I ended up hard booting
[03:38] <wsguede> and now it actually boots into the system... or I think it does
[03:38] <wsguede> because it goes blank
[03:38] <wsguede> and I can't see anything
[03:39] <wsguede> and the torrent dls for 6.06 and 7.04 are slow as hell
[03:39] <wsguede> and reg dl from mirrors I am at like 10 kbps average
[03:40] <wsguede> soldats: what's "power pc"
[05:02] <JohnnyNoBueno> 'evening!
[05:02] <JohnnyNoBueno> any savvy ubunteros about?
[05:03] <JohnnyNoBueno> if anyone is reading, I just installed Gutsy and can't see any of my scsi devices.
[05:03] <TheSODOM> kjjj
[05:07] <JohnnyNoBueno> Can't access my scsi devices.  Help?
[05:13] <zoredache> really?  what kind of devices...
[05:13] <zoredache> and where are you looking?
[05:15] <JohnnyNoBueno> I have an old AdvanSys adapter and I can't seem to access my cdrw or hdd.  I have gutsy installed on an ide drive.
[05:16] <JohnnyNoBueno> i've looked everywhere.  I even updated my kernel to 2.6.24 (hardy) on a clue that it may be a kernel issue.
[05:17] <JohnnyNoBueno> Seeing as I'm new to linux, I don't know the exact ins and outs of dealing with hardware (if it was M$, I'd be done already)
[06:05] <htmljunkie> hello all
[10:32] <hollunder> hi there, my system tried to do a dist-upgrade right now, which as a bit strange I think...
[10:40] <hollunder> it could be because of backports, but that it makes a distupgrade is new to me
[10:54] <sacarasc> hi! my friend is using xubuntu and pretty much everything he seems to use gets zombied and will only disappear after he logs out and back in again
[10:54] <sacarasc> is this a known problem or something to do with his stuff?
[11:05] <TheSheep> sacarasc: what's the problem exactly?
[12:55] <volker___> hi everybody. I have installed xubuntu-desktop on my ubuntu 7.10. Is it possible to enable compize as easy as in gnome?
[12:57] <volker___> help
[12:57] <sacarasc> TheSheep: he runs stuff, when he closes it (via the x button in the corner) it just zombies itself
[12:58] <TheSheep> sacarasc: and?
[12:58] <sacarasc> that's it, it's just an annoyance (and very sloppy)
[12:59] <TheSheep> sacarasc: I suppose it's a bug in the xfce menu, it's already being rewritten from scratch for 4.6 though
[12:59] <sacarasc> earlier he had 37 zombie processes just handing around
[12:59] <sacarasc> i use xfce myself, and it all works well
[12:59] <TheSheep> sacarasc: zombie processes don't use up resources
[13:00] <TheSheep> sacarasc: it *is* a little messy, but it doesn't hurt
[13:00] <TheSheep> sacarasc: you can report a bug if you want, at bugs.ubuntu.com
[13:00] <TheSheep> (serach for an existing one first, please)
[14:41] <radioaktivstorm> hello...anyone having problems with the volume control in their xubuntu. my keybindings for the volume buttons fail to work.
[14:43] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: what keybindings?
[14:44] <radioaktivstorm> volume control xf86AudioLowerVolume and RaiseVome
[14:45] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: what commands are bound to them?
[14:45] <radioaktivstorm> i see in the keyboard shortcuts window that they are there to control aumix (which i didnt have at first)
[14:46] <radioaktivstorm> aumix -v0
[14:46] <radioaktivstorm> for mute
[14:46] <TheSheep_> did you try these commands from your terminal?
[14:46] <radioaktivstorm> aumix -v-10 lowervolume, aumix -v+10
[14:47] <radioaktivstorm> those are the defaults but  those ones didnt work... and i tried something like aumix set Master +10 or something
[14:47] <radioaktivstorm> from reading around
[14:47] <radioaktivstorm> if i remember it did  work in the terminal
[14:47] <radioaktivstorm> but not with the keyboard shortcut
[14:48] <radioaktivstorm> whats interesting, is when i add a test command  through the graphical interface for shortcuts, and press the raise volume button, it captures a blank
[14:49] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: do you have the keyboard type set properly?
[14:49] <radioaktivstorm> sorry?
[14:49] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: keyoard layout that is
[14:50] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: last tab in the keyboard settings
[14:50] <radioaktivstorm> it is set on the default X configuration
[14:50] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: you have to set it to the keyboard you actually use, or similar
[14:50] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: and what is the default X configuration?
[14:51] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: it should show you in grayed-out
[14:51] <radioaktivstorm> i dont recall, i think i just set it to 105 keyboard
[14:51] <radioaktivstorm> yes that is what it says
[14:51] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: us 105 doesn't have media keys
[14:52] <radioaktivstorm> which would explain a lot...I just sort of assumed that xf86Audio stuff would work given that it does in the other desktop environments and thought it was something i did.
[14:52] <radioaktivstorm> thanks ill fix that right now
[14:55] <radioaktivstorm> ive set it to the dell latitude series keyboard
[14:56] <CraZy675> hey i've been using linux now for about 5 years
[14:57] <radioaktivstorm> when i reopen it is set to use x configuration with the model being dell latitude series ( because it changes xorg.conf?). it still captures a blank when i try to add commands with the media buttons
[14:57] <CraZy675> but i've not contributed
[14:57] <CraZy675> I'd like to help test the alpha or beta of the next xubuntu, how would I do this?
[14:57] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: it doesn't change the X default
[14:57] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: you can run 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg' to chenge it
[14:58] <TheSheep_> CraZy675: see the xubuntu.org
[14:58] <radioaktivstorm> ok... so then it is bad that id magically checks the use X configuration then
[14:58] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: probably
[14:58] <CraZy675> TheSheep_: yea I just found that sorry
[14:58] <TheSheep_> CraZy675: the 'get involved' link
[14:58] <TheSheep_> CraZy675: no need to be sorry :)
[14:59] <TheSheep_> CraZy675: you can also lurk on #xubntu-dev
[14:59] <CraZy675> okay thanks
[15:01] <radioaktivstorm> i decided to check aumix, since i was in the terminal, it looks like i just get " SOUND_MIXER_READ_DEVMASK" when i try the commands that were in the default xubuntu configuration for volume.
[15:04] <radioaktivstorm> is there a way to skip the things i dont want to change?
[15:05] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: just press enter
[15:05] <radioaktivstorm> ok
[15:14] <radioaktivstorm> i assume i need to restart x
[15:14] <radioaktivstorm> brb.
[15:18] <radioaktivstorm> TheSheep_ thank you :)  it looks like the keys are properly captured, however, the commands do not.
[15:18] <radioaktivstorm> *do not work
[15:19] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: personally, I use mpd and have mpc bound to those keys
[15:19] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: you say they work from the terminal?
[15:19] <radioaktivstorm> the default ones, no.
[15:20] <radioaktivstorm> the only output i get  from aumx is this rather cryptic: "aumix:  SOUND_MIXER_READ_DEVMASK"
[15:20] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: if youo have time, file a bug report
[15:20] <radioaktivstorm> alright
[15:27] <radioaktivstorm> ah
[15:27] <radioaktivstorm> it seems that this one has been filed before
[15:29] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: add a 'metoo'
[15:33] <radioaktivstorm> ok :) it looks like people who rebuilt the aumix package from source from the gutsy repos got it working. but it appears that it wont be changed until the next release? hmm
[15:34] <TheSheep_> radioaktivstorm: if it's not a critical bug, then no
[15:36] <radioaktivstorm> ok
[15:39] <bcpage_> besides the window manager what is the difference from ubuntu?
[15:44] <TheSheep_> bcpage_: default set of applications and initial settings
[15:44] <TheSheep_> bcpage_: for example, different file manager, different editor, different word processor, etc.
[15:45] <radioaktivstorm> TheSheep_ i found the command i used that did work: amixer. I'll suggest it as an alternative in my comment on the bug report and change out my commands. thanks for all of your help!
[15:46] <TheSheep_> bcpage_: also, different settings subsystem
[15:47] <bcpage_> is there any restriction on the apps/packages I can install?
[15:47] <TheSheep_> bcpage_: no
[15:48] <TheSheep_> bcpage_: except for when an application comes in two versions, for gnome and gtk, then you can have only one of them installed, but you can choose which
[15:52] <bcpage_> I'm switching from PClinux os and trying to decide between xubuntu and ubuntu. My comp is a 1.2 Ghz 512 ram. Not the fastest comp but it works
[15:53] <bcpage_> how much of a performance could I see?
[15:53] <bcpage_> differance*
[15:58] <radioaktivstorm> my laptop has 1.4GHz 512MB RAM, and if i remember baseline, xfce starts off closer to 100MB ram and gnome closer to 200MB. i suppose if youre really into performance, you should go with xfce, but gnome runs fine on my machine, and kde does as well (although much of the ram is consumed when i start doing things)
[16:00] <radioaktivstorm> i dont think i have ever had any real performance problems in gnome. I just like xfce :P
[17:09] <Spaggy> How do I know if my newly bought wireless network card will work on my laptop running xubuntu?
[17:10] <TheSheep_> you could try to boot a livecd
[17:10] <TheSheep_> and see
[17:11] <Spaggy> I have the os already, but I don't want to open the package of the card without knowing it will work.
[17:14] <TheSheep_> then how do you want to check it?
[17:14] <TheSheep_> it's not *that* wireless
[17:16] <Spaggy> I'm not sure, is there any resources that I can check regarding what will work on my laptop and what will not?
[17:16] <TheSheep_> there is a compatibility list on ubuntu.com
[17:17] <TheSheep_> but it's not complete -- if something's not there, it doesn't mean it doesn't work
[17:19] <TheSheep_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport
[17:26] <Spaggy> Thanks!
[17:26] <Spaggy> :)
[17:57] <slow-motion> hi
[18:22] <mklebel> so I compiled my kernel by hand, edited my /boot/grub/menu.lst, and it says it cant find the boot partition, does anybody have any experiance with setting the root= option?
[18:22] <mklebel> i think thats the prob
[18:22] <mklebel> i tried, /dev/sda1, (hd0,1)
[18:22] <mklebel> no worky
[18:27] <TheSheep> mklebel: try /dev/hda1
[18:28] <mklebel> ok
[18:28] <mklebel> brb
[19:46] <mikubuntu> my mouse on my dell d600 laptop has gone mad.  happens with or without usb mouse attached.  cursor starts drifting slowly northeast to top right corner of screen, and the longer i stay on the computer, the faster it drifts, till it's impossible to controll or counteract at all, thus leaving me with no way to navigate.  i found this page of posts with similar problems on ubuntu forums, but...
[19:46] <mikubuntu> ...they are from 2006 and appear never to have been addressed.  does anyone know what to do about this MAJOR prob?  is it some kind of malicious code that a micromole from gates team managed to slip into my updates?  heeeeEEEELLLLLppppp.
[19:46] <mikubuntu> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=207677
[20:49] <evil_tech> how do i write zeros to a drive from the cli?
[20:56] <TheSheep> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/your_drive
[20:56] <TheSheep> evil_tech: be aware that this will destroy all the data on your_drive
[20:57] <evil_tech> thats my intent
[20:59] <TheSheep> evil_tech: be also aware that this data can be recovered using specialistic hardware and laboratory expertise
[20:59] <nerous2> Hey all
[20:59] <nerous2> hows it goin
[20:59] <evil_tech> i thought writing zeros a couple times made that a very expensive proposition
[21:00] <nerous2> hey so can someone please tell me why i cant copy my themes files from the desktop to the /usr/home/themes folder
[21:01] <nerous2> sorry not home, share
[21:02] <TheSheep> nerous2: run 'gksu thunar' and try with it
[21:03] <nerous2> am i running that from the term?
[21:03] <TheSheep> yes, or from alt+f2
[21:04] <TheSheep> the point is, to write anywhere outside of your home you have to be root
[21:04] <nerous2> ok that worked.
[21:04] <nerous2> oh ok
[21:04] <nerous2> i tried it in root at the term
[21:05] <nerous2> but when i put in my line, it said ommiting "x" folder
[21:05] <TheSheep> you need -r option for cp to copy directories too
[21:05] <nerous2> oh thanks!
[21:06] <nerous2> i spent 5 days trying to switch from ubuntu to another os...i tried gentoo, and slack, and goblinx...but none of them would install for me.
[21:06] <nerous2> but i want to try something other than ubuntu 6.06 so i am trying this.  now i am trying to install a different theme...but im still learning
[21:06] <nerous2> might see me around a bit
[21:07] <TheSheep> sure thing
[21:07] <TheSheep> don't hesitate to ask
[21:09] <nerous2> TheSheep: i have a large X on the side of the folder i copied
[21:09] <nerous2> would you mind giving me a few steps to installing a theme
[21:11] <TheSheep> nerous2:check the permissions
[21:11] <TheSheep> nerous2: in the directory's properties
[21:11] <nerous2> ok
[21:12] <nerous2> i have changed them to allow user
[21:12] <nerous2> is there something that i can look for to tell you that will help?
[21:14] <nerous2> afk
[21:17] <nerous2> back
[21:26] <nerous2> TheSheep: are you still there?
[21:31] <TheSheep> nerous2: no :)
[21:31] <TheSheep> nerous2: still not working?
[21:32] <TheSheep> nerous2: are you sure you're looking into the right menu?
[21:32] <TheSheep> nerous2: there are two kinds of themes, gtk themes, for general look of applications, and you change them in your user interface settings, and xfce themes, for the windows borders, and these are set in the window manager settings
[21:32] <nerous2> sorry i didnt realise you were back
[21:33] <nerous2> ok
[21:33] <nerous2> let me close all my windows, and then i will start from the begining ok?
[21:34] <nerous2> ready whenever you are
[21:35] <TheSheep> what kind of theme did you try to install?
[21:35] <TheSheep> got a link?
[21:35] <nerous2> i have a few here
[21:36] <nerous2> i want to install file:///home/jason/Desktop/65299-Leopardish.tar.gz
[21:36] <nerous2> do you want the link to the theme on the web?
[21:36] <TheSheep> yes, that would be more useful
[21:36] <nerous2> of course
[21:38] <FactTech> Question: Does Xubuntu use ALSA by default?
[21:39] <nerous2> http://www.xfce-look.org/content/show.php/Leopardish?content=65299
[21:39] <nerous2> there you go TheSheep
[21:39] <TheSheep> FactTech: yes
[21:39] <TheSheep> nerous2: ok, it's a gtk theme
[21:40] <TheSheep> nerous2: you should have it listed under settings->user interface settings
[21:40] <nerous2> is that a bad think?
[21:40] <TheSheep> no, it's good
[21:40] <nerous2> ok...its still in tar.gz format on my desktop
[21:40] <nerous2> there are 3 files...
[21:40] <nerous2> i donwloaded all 3
[21:41] <TheSheep> ok, icons should go to /usr/share/icons
[21:41] <TheSheep> unpacked, of course
[21:41] <TheSheep> theme to /usr/share/themes
[21:42] <TheSheep> and the mouse cursors too, I think
[21:42] <FactTech> TheSheep, Thanks. Do you happen to know why Xubuntu does not have a /etc/asound.conf file by default?
[21:42] <nerous2> in the themes folder?
[21:43] <TheSheep> FactTech: it autodetects by default
[21:44] <TheSheep> FactTech: yes, so you should have /usr/share/themes/Leopardish and /usr/share/themes/Leopardis-normal
[21:44] <FactTech> TheSheep, The reason I'm asking is... I had a persistent problem with intermittent clicking when playing sounds at certain bitrate/frequency combinations... I just went through a whole rigamarole to get a new sound card working. One thing I did was add a new /etc/asound.conf file, and that seems to have fixed it.
[21:45] <TheSheep> FactTech: you can just create that file
[21:45] <TheSheep> FactTech: it will be respected
[21:45] <FactTech> TheSheep, Is there any way to provide hints to the autodetect process without overriding everything?
[21:45] <TheSheep> no idea
[21:45] <FactTech> TheSheep, OK, well, thanks.
[21:45] <TheSheep> but if it should be done, then it should be done globally
[21:46] <TheSheep> in that case, report a bug, and some developers will contact you for details
[21:46] <TheSheep> see if the bug is not reported already
[21:46] <TheSheep> http://bugs.ubuntu.com
[21:46] <FactTech> TheSheep, If I can reproduce it reliably, I will report it.
[21:46] <nerous2> TheSheep: how do i pull up the root file manager again
[21:47] <TheSheep> nerous2: gksu thunar
[21:47] <nerous2> thanks
[21:47] <FactTech> TheSheep, What does asound.conf feed into? I'm still learning my way around the sound subsystem(s).
[21:49] <nerous2> got it
[21:49] <TheSheep> FactTech: I guess it's used when running /etc/init.d/alsa-utils
[21:50] <nerous2> its working TheSheep
[21:50] <nerous2> except for my tool bars...they look.....bare!
[21:51] <TheSheep> nerous2: that's because this theme was prepared for a patched system
[21:51] <TheSheep> nanonyme: that has the main menu at the top of the screen
[21:51] <TheSheep> nanonyme: sorry
[21:51] <TheSheep> nerous2: like macos
[21:52] <TheSheep> nerous2: use the -normal one for unpatched system
[21:52] <FactTech> TheSheep, Can I ask you one more newbie-type question? I have only one user set up on my box. I want to change the username (and home directory to match), but when I try to do it in usermod, it fails saying "can't lock password file". I assume this is because I am logged in as that user. Would this work if I started in single-user mode?
[21:52] <nerous2> oh ok
[21:53] <TheSheep> FactTech: probably
[21:53] <FactTech> TheSheep, And that's the same as "recovery mode" in the GRUB menu, right?
[21:53] <TheSheep> yes
[21:54] <TheSheep> they sure like to invent new names for making things 'user firendly'
[21:54] <FactTech> TheSheep, OK, I'll give it a shot. I appreciate your help and your patience.
[22:03] <nerous2> TheSheep: i am trying to find the how to get the finder bar at the top
[22:04] <TheSheep> nerous2: it's definitely an advanced topic
[22:04] <nerous2> oh ok
[22:04] <nerous2> so i should basically stick with what ive got!
[22:06] <FactTech> What are the best reasons to upgrade to 7.10 from 7.04?
[22:08] <TheSheep> FactTech: restricted drivers manager, network manager, slightly newer xfce, new gimp
[22:08] <TheSheep> FactTech: depends on what you use, I guess
[22:09] <nerous2> thanks for your help TheSheep
[22:11] <nerous2> TheSheep: is it possible to install gnome on xubuntu
[22:11] <TheSheep> nerous2: yes
[22:11] <nerous2> nice
[22:11] <nerous2> ok
[22:11] <TheSheep> nerous2: you can have all three, xubuntu, ubuntu and kubuntu isntalled at the same time
[22:11] <nerous2> Sweet!
[22:11] <TheSheep> nerous2: ad choose which one to run on the login screen
[22:11] <TheSheep> nerous2: just install the ubuntu-desktop or kubuntu-desktop package
[22:12] <nerous2> ubuntu-desktop package?
[22:12] <nerous2> from the synaptic package installer
[22:13] <TheSheep> yes, it will install full ubuntu system together with your xubuntu
[22:13] <TheSheep> or you can install just the gnome
[22:13] <TheSheep> then it won't install all the ubuntu apps
[22:13] <nerous2> yea i just need the gnome because i want to install mac4lin
[22:13] <nerous2> have you used that?
[22:13] <TheSheep> no
[22:13] <nerous2> oh.
[22:14] <TheSheep> somehow I don't like the macos looks
[22:14] <nerous2> i used it when i was growing up.  really i want to get the term built in to the desktop
[22:14] <nerous2> i want to start using term more
[22:15] <TheSheep> there is that 'verve commandline plugin'
[22:15] <TheSheep> you can add it to your panel
[22:15] <TheSheep> and type commands into it
[22:15] <nerous2> my panel?
[22:15] <TheSheep> but it's not like real terminal
[22:15] <TheSheep> you know the two strips at the top and bottom of the screen
[22:15] <TheSheep> these are panels
[22:16] <nerous2> Ah.  gotcha
[22:16] <TheSheep> you can right-click on them and change their looks
[22:16] <nerous2> oh ok
[22:16] <TheSheep> and position and what's on them
[22:16] <TheSheep> for example, mine looks like this: http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png
[22:18] <nerous2> cool
[22:18] <nerous2> how did you get the launchbar at the bottom
[22:18] <nerous2> and the terminal is almost see thru
[22:19] <TheSheep> nerous2: it's all in the options
[22:19] <TheSheep> nerous2: if you right-click and select 'preferences' or 'customize panel'
[22:21] <nerous2> cool
[22:21] <TheSheep> nerous2: to get transparency and shadows you need to enable compsotign in settings->window manager tweaks
[22:23] <nerous2> got it
[22:23] <TheSheep> compositing, sorry :)
[22:24] <nerous2> thats ok
[22:24] <TheSheep> nerous2: good night, and good luck with your new desktop
[22:24] <nerous2> thanks TheSheep
[22:25] <nerous2> same to you, thanks for your help
[22:28] <Rohsputina> hi. i wish to to install xubuntu(using grub) to hdb.on hda i have windows and wish to boot back and forth once in a while ( hda or hdb ) will the grub used on hdb have any effect when i boot my hda (windows only)
[23:00] <nerous2> hey all
[23:04] <nerous2> hey can anyone help me with this probelm?
[23:04] <nerous2> "The panel encountered a problem while loading "OAFIID:Deskbar_Applet".
[23:04] <nerous2> Do you want to delete the applet from your configuration?"
[23:04] <nerous2> its a GNOME error


[12:59] <paride> Odd_Bloke, I agree merging back to master is the most sensible thing to do
[13:01] <paride> as another possibility I was thinking of using {latest-tag:ubuntu-pkg} in the recipe to use the latest tag in the packaging branch instead of the latest tag in master
[13:01] <paride> which works kind of fine as far as we SRU all the new upstream releases
[13:02] <paride> but can be confusing if one is skipped
[13:05] <paride> another possibility is: something like {latest-tag}.git{revno} instead of {latest-tag}-{revno}
[13:06] <paride> the sorting should be OK as letter > numbers in the deb-version sorting
[13:06] <paride> but it's kind of ugly
[13:24] <peac> hi, i'm trying to script a kvm (virt-manager) vm initialisation with Debian aarch64 as base, i've downloaded the 64-bit arm openstack qcow2 image from https://www.debian.org/distrib/
[13:24] <peac> what would be the correct way to just insert my ssh key before starting the vm ?
[15:24] <powersj> peac: you will want to look at cloud-localds: https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/topics/faq.html#cloud-localds
[15:27] <peac> thanks !
[15:55] <falcojr> I've been looking at https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/pull/786 and I'm confused about our network configuration. If somebody uses the v2 config but has an ENI (or sysconfig) backend, is the v2 config expressive enough for DHCP6?
[15:55] <falcojr> the two DHCPv6 options we have are dhcp6, and accept-ra
[15:56] <falcojr> but how can those two options alone give us stateful, stateless, and SLAAC configurations?
[15:57] <falcojr> looking at https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/pull/744#pullrequestreview-563012092 , it seems netplan just magically takes care of it, but if we have an ENI backend, we need to convert that config to v1 first...so...magic doesn't really help us
[15:58] <falcojr> (or I guess I should have linked to the comment under that one)
[15:59] <falcojr> rharper: just because you answered there, do you have any insight here?
[16:06] <kryl> hi there
[16:09] <rharper> falcojr: I'll look
[22:43] <Odd_Bloke> falcojr: https://github.com/canonical/pycloudlib/pull/107 <-- the GCE and Oracle fixes we discussed earlier


[00:00] <pleia2> of course
[00:00] <pleia2> have to save thems eggs from the evil piggies
[00:01] <MarkDude> Understandable.
[00:01]  * MarkDude is being productive by mixing social media and football
[00:01] <MarkDude> football watching is in the lead at the moment
[00:02] <pleia2> hehe
[02:21] <jdeslip> I hear they are making a special christmas edition of angry birds :)
[02:22] <DarkwingDuck> yay
[17:53] <MarkDude> aaditya, give Suzanne access to the wiki- I think she'll hep plan a party
[17:53] <MarkDude> help
[18:15] <MarkDude> Jono's hella loud music deal is this Friday- who wants to go see it in the City
[18:15] <MarkDude> ?
[18:16] <MarkDude> Dangerous G said he would go into the mosh pit this time
[18:20] <jledbetter> Hella loud, eh?
[18:24] <MarkDude> jledbetter, yes. Very, very  loud
[18:26] <MarkDude> http://www.youtube.com/user/severedfifth#p/a/u/2/YwMPx5rQ6IE
[19:44] <MarkDude> hey nUboon2Age want to go hear some real loud music on Friday?
[22:38] <aaditya> MarkDude: created an account for suzanne and send details to her gmail.
[22:42] <MarkDude> Cool deal
[23:04] <MarkDude> aaditya, are you making it to Jono on Friday?
[23:04] <MarkDude> Nixie might make
[23:04] <MarkDude> it
[23:05] <MarkDude> Hopefully grantbow also- showing us his mosh skillz
[23:06] <MarkDude> sp / mosh skillz/ *mad* mosh skillz
[23:55] <aaditya> MarkDude: I'm likely to show up at Jono's on Friday
[23:55] <aaditya> s/send/sent/


[08:49] <progre55> hi guys. running an instance, but cannot connect to it. euca-get-console-output says "mount: mount point /dev/pts does not exist ... etc etc ... Mount of root filesystem failed. "
[08:49] <progre55> any suggestions, please?
[17:39] <progre55> hey guys. I'm trying to run an image, 10.04 64bit, but not able to connect to it ("ssh: connect to host xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx port 22: Connection refused"), although it's status is "running". here is the end of the console output http://pastie.org/1165183 any suggestions, please?
[17:44] <progre55> and then I tried to get a clean 64bit lucid UEC image. I get the same problem, although "euca-get-console-output" is a bit different http://pastie.org/1165201
[17:51] <progre55> anyone?
[17:53] <smoser> progre55, where are you running this ?
[17:53] <progre55> smoser: what do you mean this?
[17:53] <smoser> i suspect that the kernel crash is transient.
[17:54] <progre55> oh
[17:54] <smoser> but the other, i suspect is routing issues
[17:54] <smoser> is that ec2 or uec
[17:54] <progre55> both uec
[17:54] <smoser> (sorry to have forgotten what you were doing)
[17:54] <progre55> but the first one is a converted AMI image
[17:54] <smoser> so, i suspect that in the first log the instance is up, but you can't get to it because something is busted in routing.
[17:55] <smoser> converted ami as in from amazon ?
[17:55] <progre55> yep
[17:55] <smoser> make sure /etc/fstab is clean
[17:55] <smoser> , that it only has /dev/sda1 in it
[17:55] <progre55> oh I see
[17:55] <smoser> (that might cause boot hang)
[17:55] <smoser> but i don thtink you're hitting that
[17:56] <progre55> no actually I was having a problem with mountall before
[17:56] <smoser> well, that isn't actually an error
[17:56] <progre55> getting "mount: mount point /dev/pts does not exist, etc"
[17:56] <smoser> hm..
[17:56] <progre55> but that was with another image
[17:58] <progre55> and how come I cant even run a clean official uec image..
[17:58] <progre55> that's the second log..
[18:13] <smoser> what is the NC ?
[18:13] <smoser> what kind of system ?
[18:13] <smoser> i suspect if you run it again, it will be fine.
[18:17] <progre55> oh
[18:17] <progre55> NC is also ubuntu uec
[18:18] <progre55> smoser: which one should I try to run? the clean image?
[18:18] <smoser> well the one that kernel crashed
[18:18] <smoser> what kind of hardware is NC
[18:20] <progre55> hmm.. it's a server, but with an old hard drive
[18:20] <progre55> the only weakest point is the hard drive in the NC
[18:20] <progre55> let me try to rebundle and re-run it then..
[18:42] <progre55> smoser: wow, actually both of them work now! =)
[18:43] <smoser> hm..
[18:43] <progre55> I suppose that's my NC machine
[18:44] <progre55> will change the HD I guess
[18:44] <progre55> smoser: thanks a lot, man! appreciate
[18:44] <progre55> well, time to go home now =)
[19:03] <marrusl> smoser, thanks for the ttylinux.  I am able to ssh into the instance.  So I still kinda think it's a network issue of some type, but my setup is basically good, so it's weird.
[19:03] <smoser> inside the ttylinux do you have access to the metadata service ?
[19:04] <smoser> wget -q http://<IP_ADDRESS>/latest/meta-data/instance-id -O -; echo
[19:05] <smoser> that should show you your instance id
[19:05] <smoser> that is what the lucid images are trying to do.
[19:08] <marrusl> smoser, Ah, see right after I got the instance up on the node controller, we kind of had a tornado or close to it in queens.
[19:08] <marrusl> and I lost my internet.
[19:08] <marrusl> I'm still using mobile broadband, so I can't really check now!
[19:09] <marrusl> Seriously, it looks like a disaster movie outside.


[00:13] <wxl> is there something wrong with how debian-installer deals with crypted lvm? http://launchpad.net/bugs/1425681
[00:13] <wxl> i'm about ready to re-write the testcase to exclude lvm
[00:13] <wxl> i can't see a reason why an average user would want it
[00:19] <balloons> wxl, if the testcase is finding bugs :)
[00:19] <wxl> balloons: true, but i'm also thinking lvm is not something i really expect your average user to understand and want to use
[00:21] <balloons> the debian installer already means they aren't a typical user
[00:21] <wxl> well
[00:21] <wxl> in some sense
[00:21] <wxl> for us that may mean that ubiquity exceeds their available memory
[00:25] <wxl> i mean honestly we don't even have a encrypted/lvm case for ubiquity
[01:02] <wxl> balloons: your review requested for a better solution: actually have a matching manual partitioning testcase for alternate and drop the lvm/encrypted one
[01:03] <wxl> release team is not too excited about supporting our alternate images, so i'd rather not push the envelope there XD
[01:05] <wxl> k
[01:22] <sak> That last few days of the beta 1 test were extreme. So much to do, little time for me to do it in. Beta 2 should be even better.
[01:22] <wxl> bah nothing was worse than 14.04.2
[01:24] <wxl> should be no big
[01:44] <sak> Lets hope not. We actually got 14.04.2 released. I am confident we will make solid with 15.04, provided we keep all eyes on issues
[01:46] <sak> Based on the amount of bugs we have been seeing originating from gui based software centers, there needs to be more thorough testcases for those. Muon for KDE was forgotten about.
[01:47] <wxl> that's not a red bug imho
[01:50] <sak> An application that fails to packages in not a red bug?
[02:13] <elopio-mobile> Test
[02:14] <elopio> ping elopio-mobile
[02:15] <veebers> elopio: ^_^
[02:17] <elopio> testing kiwiIRC on my ubuntu phone
[02:17] <elopio> not as nice as quassel on android, but gets the job done.
[02:21] <veebers> ah cool
[06:33] <pitti> sbeattie: there was another spew of apt update errors yesterday, I already retried most tests; I'll re-run the two remaining ones
[06:33] <pitti> sbeattie: and linux is an actual regression, the new tests fail and need to be fixed
[06:34] <pitti> sbeattie: also, consider that we are in beta freeze, so pretty much nothing will migrate right now
[14:47] <flexiondotorg> Just wondering if we are supposed to be seeing this? http://i.imgur.com/6dkAfwG.png
[14:47] <flexiondotorg> It is not expressly mentioned in the test cases.
[15:10] <flexiondotorg> I'd like to add some test case to the Ubuntu MATE tracker. Can someone help with that?
[15:10] <flexiondotorg> Existing test cases, that is,
[17:15] <elopio> rhuddie: still around?
[17:15] <rhuddie> elopio, sure
[17:16] <elopio> rhuddie: you can be the impartial reviewer of https://code.launchpad.net/~canonical-platform-qa/ubuntu-sanity-tests/adding-installing-application-test/+merge/250875
[17:16] <rhuddie> elopio, yes, wil do
[17:40] <brendand> rhuddie, just replied to: https://code.launchpad.net/~canonical-platform-qa/ubuntu-sanity-tests/bug1425908_check_sim_present/+merge/251104
[17:40] <brendand> rhuddie, to split an if statement over multiple lines you do need brackets around it
[17:41] <brendand> rhuddie, try typing:
[17:41] <rhuddie> brendand, ah ok.that explains it. thanks
[17:41] <brendand> if True and
[17:41] <brendand> in the python shell, it's a SyntaxError
[17:44] <rhuddie> elopio, I did that review, 1 inline comment
[17:45] <elopio> rhuddie: great :) You are getting mean at reviews.
[17:46] <elopio> that's the spirit.
[17:46] <rhuddie> elopio, :)
[17:47] <elopio> rhuddie: I think I'll name it dash_proxy.wait_for_processing_to_stop()
[17:47] <elopio> sounds good?
[17:47] <elopio> wait_for_processing_to_end()
[17:48] <rhuddie> elopio, or wait_for_processing_to_complete()
[17:48] <rhuddie> if its not too long
[17:48] <elopio> rhuddie: ok.
[17:49] <rhuddie> got to go now, see you later
[19:37] <brendand> veebers, can you make sure your needs info is answered and top-approve this? https://code.launchpad.net/~canonical-platform-qa/ubuntu-sanity-tests/adding-installing-application-test/+merge/250875
[19:37] <veebers> brendand: sure can
[20:15] <knome> balloons, fwiw, i'm happy with either choice; i was just proposing that if the hw/vm separation was important
[20:16] <balloons> buonasera Letozaf_
[20:16] <Letozaf_> balloons, buonasera come va?
[20:16] <balloons> knome, right.. So I too just wish to see it be anything but the blank field. So whoever proposes something first is likely to get my vote :-)
[20:16] <dobey> veebers: ok, so i had to copy all the arguments into two calls and only use "ubuntu-app-test" for when mir is the display manager. i think it will work. the non-mir case is working as before anyway. will have to look at the launch_test_application() code to see if we can clean that up any
[20:17] <knome> balloons, i won't most likely be doing a technical proposal, so the other side will win ;)
[20:17] <balloons> knome, removing it is the path of least resistance, so I expect it to happen
[20:18] <balloons> Letozaf_, not bad (<-- no idea for Italian on that one)
[20:18] <knome> yep
[20:19] <veebers> dobey: ok, makes sense. Let me know if there is something we can help with
[20:19] <balloons> I suppose dkessel has the keys on that one
[20:19] <Letozaf_> balloons, :)  in Italian you can say: "non male, grazie"
[20:19]  * balloons tries to maybe remember that
[20:19] <Letozaf_> :-)
[20:19] <balloons> grazie Letozaf_ . Anyways, I've been filing thoughts of new bugs for needed autopilot tests on the core apps
[20:20] <balloons> I wouldn't want anyone to get bored
[20:20] <Letozaf_> balloons, :) don't worry I am already looking at calendar-app :) thanks for not letting me get bored :D
[20:28] <elfy> ooh I could probably have sussed out non male - almost a bit Spanishy :)
[20:28] <elfy> hi Letozaf_ :)
[20:29] <Letozaf_> hello elfy how are you :)
[20:29] <elfy> good now that vivid beta 1 is done and dusted :D
[20:30] <Letozaf_> elfy, yeah I saw the mail mailling list, good job!
[20:30] <elfy> we've had some problems with ours - big disclaimer on our release notes :)
[20:31] <Letozaf_> elfy, :)
[20:53] <balloons> letozaf__, can I ask a favor of you>
[20:53] <letozaf__> balloons, sure
[20:53] <balloons> so I'm trying to solve the mass mailings from every core apps for each submission. I'm sure you get the emails :-)
[20:54] <balloons> I want to make sure you still have jenkins run on your mp's however
[20:54] <letozaf__> balloons, yes I get the emails :)
[20:54] <letozaf__> balloons, what can I do to help you ?
[20:56] <balloons> letozaf__, so can you make a quick mp against a core app..
[20:56] <balloons> it doesn't need to change anything, I just want to see that jenkins picks it up
[20:58] <letozaf__> balloons, ok, just a second...
[21:01] <letozaf__> balloons, https://code.launchpad.net/~carla-sella/ubuntu-calendar-app/fixing_montview/+merge/251172
[21:02] <letozaf__> montview should have been monthview   :-P but it's just a test :D
[21:02] <balloons> letozaf__, :-) excellent. I assume jenkins won't care
[21:02] <letozaf__> :D
[21:02] <balloons> I see it's set as a reviewer already.. thats a good sign
[21:03] <balloons> so I *should* have gotten a mail about this, let's see if I did
[21:03] <letozaf__> balloons, good :D
[21:04] <balloons> ohh right, I'm on the reviews, heh
[21:04] <balloons> we need someone else to test and see if they got notified..
[21:06] <balloons> seems to be working.. awesome
[21:06] <balloons> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-touch-coreapps-reviewers/
[21:08] <balloons> letozaf__, it worked, awesome
[21:08] <balloons> so fingers crossed the mass emails should be all gone
[21:09] <letozaf__> balloons, awesome :D
[21:13] <dkessel> balloons: good evening - i got keys on what?
[21:13] <dkessel> Hey letozaf__
[21:14] <balloons> dkessel, hehe.. on the bug knome and I were chatting about https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1017207
[21:16] <letozaf__> dkessel, hey
[21:17] <balloons> ok letozaf__ , one more test
[21:18] <letozaf__> balloons, ok what ?
[21:19] <balloons> letozaf__, can you branch lp:ubuntu-facebook-app and propose an mp.. it's an old app that isn't developed.. we'll use it as a test case so I don't break anyone project ;-)
[21:19] <letozaf__> balloons, ok
[21:19] <balloons> so I expect to get no emails (don't make me a reviewer please)
[21:19] <flexiondotorg> balloons, I'd like to add some more Test case to Ubuntu MATE but (I am told) do not see what I need to do so.
[21:19] <flexiondotorg> Can you help?
[21:19] <balloons> flexiondotorg, certainly
[21:20] <balloons> flexiondotorg, mostly as a test for our docs, I'll point you at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases/Manual and shut up.
[21:20] <balloons> if you get stuck though, please feel free to ask
[21:20]  * dkessel subscribes to bug mail for that bug
[21:20] <flexiondotorg> balloons, Sorry. I wasn't clear.
[21:21] <flexiondotorg> There are existing test case I would like to make use of.
[21:21] <balloons> ahh . . .
[21:21] <flexiondotorg> But I don't have the required "stuff" enabled or available to do so.
[21:21]  * balloons wonders if knome can find the older page describing how the admin interface for the tracker works
[21:21] <letozaf__> balloons, https://code.launchpad.net/~carla-sella/ubuntu-facebook-app/test/+merge/251177
[21:21] <balloons> maybe it doesn't even exist
[21:21] <balloons> flexiondotorg, ohh.. that
[21:22] <balloons> flexiondotorg, right, I don't think I have the magic you need, but let's confirm
[21:22] <balloons> lol, letozaf__ don't make me a reviewer, else I'll get mail :-)
[21:22] <letozaf__> balloons, :P so used to it :P
[21:22] <balloons> letozaf__, no worries
[21:22] <letozaf__> balloons, let me do it again
[21:22] <flexiondotorg> balloons, No magic? Who is supreme wizard of the tracker round here? 😉
[21:22] <balloons> sure
[21:23] <balloons> flexiondotorg, even the sumpreme wizard must obey higher powers
[21:23] <flexiondotorg> 😃
[21:23] <flexiondotorg> Summon the Gods please 😉
[21:24] <balloons> flexiondotorg, where's the rlease team on lp?
[21:24] <flexiondotorg> One sec...
[21:24] <letozaf__> balloons, https://code.launchpad.net/~carla-sella/ubuntu-facebook-app/test/+merge/251179
[21:25] <flexiondotorg> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mate-release
[21:25] <dkessel> balloons: I think having it as a HW versus VM choice might be a good idea. Given that that was the most important fact with recent issues on vbox etc...
[21:25] <balloons> awesome, ok letozaf__ that worked. Now I want to ensure I do get mails if I'm directly a team member.. don't add me as reviewer again, but make one more mp
[21:26] <letozaf__> balloons, ok
[21:27] <balloons> dkessel, I won't argue against it, as I said, I'm happy with either solution.. or removal first, then add the option back later
[21:27] <elfy> if it is simple I'd like that
[21:28] <letozaf__> balloons, https://code.launchpad.net/~carla-sella/ubuntu-facebook-app/test_2/+merge/251182
[21:28] <elfy> that said - I'm not doing the work - and as long as what we get is not what we have now - I would be happy
[21:28] <elfy> my biggest issue with the tracker is and is always going to be - mousing over bugs to hope I can see something vaguely the same as what I see
[21:29] <balloons> letozaf__, brillant, got it. So awesomeness, I'll finish the conversion
[21:29] <dkessel> balloons: let's what the contributor will do ;)
[21:29] <letozaf__> balloons, :D
[21:30] <letozaf__> balloons, shall I cancel the test mp or do you still need them
[21:37] <balloons> flexiondotorg, afaict everything looks good, so it's an issue for stgraber to ensure you are setup properly
[21:37] <balloons> letozaf__, you can cancel everything
[21:37] <flexiondotorg> balloons, Thanks.
[21:37] <balloons> thanks much for creating all those, hehe
[21:37] <flexiondotorg> I'll seek out stgrabber and ask for their help.
[21:38] <balloons> dkessel, indeed.. you've never had some much power eh? ;p
[21:44] <letozaf__> balloons, did you see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3PUYoa1c9M it's simply awesome!!!!
[22:11]  * balloons looks
[22:12] <balloons> nice, I didn't know he published
[22:12] <balloons> hehe
[22:16] <balloons> he's such a tease
[22:29] <elfy> wxl: if ever you wanted to have a chat about how we do it - just ping me