[17:01] <elopio> fossfreedom: I'm setting up the hangout. I'll send you the link when I'm done.
[17:02] <fossfreedom> thanks
[17:46] <elopio> fossfreedom: check your email. And feel free to send the link to anyone else that wants to attend.
[17:47] <fossfreedom> got it
[18:45] <elopio> thanks a lot for coming! A lot of interesting things to try now :)
[18:46] <fossfreedom> cheers for having us.  Maybe we can do this again sometime elopio
[18:47] <elopio> fossfreedom: any time! Whenever you have something to show, send me aping.


[05:50] <Jordan_U> Can someone confirm that I made that ban correctly? ( +b<EMAIL_ADDRESS>) ?
[07:19] <jussi> I just banned that seven1 in +1, but Ive kinda got hands full with elodi here, so if some one could pm nd talk to him that would be nice
[07:19] <Jordan_U> jussi: What is there to talk about?
[07:20] <jussi> Jordan_U: explain, even though he is being silly, still need to try talk to him rationally
[07:21] <Jordan_U> jussi: OK, will do.
[07:21] <jussi> thanks
[07:21] <Jordan_U> You're welcome.
[07:24] <Jordan_U> Unfortunately they've apparently already quit.
[08:07] <Loving> hey all...
[08:08] <Jordan_U> Loving: Hi.
[08:08] <Loving> visit http://punya-rizal.blogspot.com/
[08:09] <Myrtti> how about NO
[08:09] <Myrtti> stop spamming our channels
[08:10] <Loving> wkwkwkwk....
[08:13] <gry> s/our//g
[08:13] <Myrtti> gry: fairy nuff
[08:14] <gry> hehe
[08:20] <Loving> What advantages than debian ubuntu
[08:23] <elky> He has several of those.
[08:28] <elky> is he doing it elsewhere?
[08:29] <elky> Loving, depends on what you consider "advantages"
[08:29] <elky> You're also better asking this in #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:32] <Loving> better to use ubuntu or debian
[08:34] <elky> Loving, please /join #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:34] <elky> Loving, you can ask that question there.
[08:42] <Loving> what is it?
[08:44] <elky> administration stuff you don't need to see. you're in the wrong channel. you should be in #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:58] <Loving> forum for what gnacktrack?
[08:58] <Myrtti> Loving: you really don't get it. DO NOT SPAM US WITH THE LINK TO YOUR BLOG
[08:58] <Myrtti> WE ARE NOT INTERESTED.
[09:00] <Loving> ststststst......
[09:08] <Loving> why
[09:08] <oCean> Loving: do you understand that the #ubuntu channel is a support channel?
[09:08] <oCean> for technical support only?
[09:08] <oCean> Users with technical questions and others helping them
[09:10] <oCean> Loving: the #ubuntu channels (#ubuntu-offtopic as well) are community channels
[09:10] <oCean> not for your personal benefit
[09:10] <oCean> Loving: so we cannot allow others to post links to their personal pages, blogs etc
[09:10] <oCean> Loving: do you understand?
[09:16] <Loving> not yet
[09:17] <gry> where are you from?
[09:20] <Loving> أنا من العربي
[09:21] <gry> من فضلك لا البريد المزعج أو الإعلان على الدردشة؟
[09:23] <Loving> 私は愛する、愛する洞
[09:24] <elky> no.
[09:37] <LjL> watashi wa ai suru, ai suru ???
[09:37] <LjL> i can understand enough to understand he's a troll, i can stop learning
[14:37] <bazhang> sheenz has said nothing on topic I have seen
 can you transfer apps using this app
[15:16] <Pici> I read that a few times myself.
[15:16] <bazhang> weird questions: is Mac OS free for dl? and the like
[15:16] <bazhang> he means d c c etc
[15:17] <Pici> I got that, after mr-squidley's answer.
[15:17]  * LjL always rolls eyes a bit at mangling of "Ð©©"
 is there like a bit viewer or something?
[17:12] <Pici> 0
[17:13] <bazhang> does that make sense?
[17:13] <Pici> 0
[17:38] <bazhang> heh
[17:39] <bazhang> that looks like ansi from earlier, with the tightvnc issue
[17:39] <Pici> rather different host.
[17:41] <bazhang> whoops you're right
[18:34] <oCean> fuduntu?
[18:34] <bazhang> fedora respin
[18:34] <bazhang> made to look like...
[18:34] <oCean> I see
[18:34] <bazhang> ARCH64!
[18:34] <oCean> Unbelievable Performance
[18:35] <bazhang> Debian Edition
[18:35] <MrChrisDruif> ??
[18:35] <oCean> MUST HAVE NOW
[18:35] <bazhang> kidding...
[18:36] <oCean> I feel old :(
[18:36] <bazhang> ubuntu of course
[18:37] <bazhang> featured on omgwebupd8
[18:38] <oCean> free keygen?
[18:38] <bazhang> heh yeah
[18:38] <MrChrisDruif> Nautilus-Elementary =')
[18:38] <bazhang> need a cd crack though
[18:40] <oCean> maybe I should switch to freebsd
[18:48] <oCean> Wait, I probably still have a SCO openserver 5.0.4 cd
[18:56] <jussi> oCean: Solaris FTW
[18:57] <oCean> there's even a tru64 disc, but I don't have an Alpha cpu :(
[18:58] <oCean> I had an alphastation 500 once
[19:04] <mneptok> OBSD/m68k in a cardboard box here. not booted for >3 years.
[22:56] <pangolin> !guidelines > boram
[23:22] <M4dH4TT3r> so can i be unbanned today?
[23:23] <Myrtti> how do you feel after yesterdays act?
[23:23] <Myrtti> does it feel likely?
[23:30] <pangolin> M4dH4TT3r, no, and not for atleast 6 months.
[23:30] <pangolin> Please part this channel and don't come back until September


[01:48] <shakes808> rick_h_: You want me to get the Pyramid framework right?
[02:26] <Blazeix_> shakes808: knowing rick_h_, yes.
[02:26] <shakes808> Thank you sir.
[02:27] <shakes808> Did you go to dinner with them?\
[02:27] <Blazeix_> yep, rick_h_ should be back on in 20-30 minutes, probably
[02:28] <shakes808> How was it?
[02:28] <shakes808> Did the speaker join you?
[02:29] <Blazeix_> yeah, it was good. one of the larger groups. maybe around 12 people
[02:29] <shakes808> Hope fully I will have money next time and join you all
[02:29] <Blazeix_> had some good conversation about wacky IT problems and network architecture
[02:29] <Blazeix_> cool, i hope so too
[02:35] <shakes808> I am looking at the Pyramid site and it is telling me to install a virtual environment and work out of there.
[02:35] <shakes808> Will it not work if I just install it?
[02:37] <Blazeix_> i think that will work if you just install it, but it will be easier in the long run if you use virtualenv
[02:38] <Blazeix_> i recommend reading this if you're getting started with python dev http://mirnazim.org/writings/python-ecosystem-introduction/
[02:38] <shakes808> Why is that
[02:38] <Blazeix_> there's a section on virtualenv in that link
[02:38] <shakes808> alrihg
[02:38] <shakes808> alright
[02:40] <shakes808> ty
[02:40] <shakes808> Do you dev in Python?
[02:40] <Blazeix_> not as my main job, no. but its one of the things i play around with
[02:41] <shakes808> What is your main job?
[02:42] <Blazeix_> mostly c#/java/web consulting
[02:43] <Blazeix_> sometimes other technologies as clients have need
[02:43] <shakes808> cool
[02:43] <shakes808> freelance?
[02:43] <Blazeix_> what do you do?
[02:44] <Blazeix_> no, for a smaller consulting company
[02:44] <shakes808> I work with Craig at Morpace. I work in JavaScript on a Proprietary software making dashboards
[02:44] <shakes808> for clients
[02:45] <shakes808> If I remember correctly, you are the one that sat down to my left, correct?
[02:45] <Blazeix_> oh cool, a morpace guy :)
[02:45] <Blazeix_> yep
[02:46] <shakes808> Yeah, I have been there since the beginning of March. Before that I was working briefly at an insurance software firm
[02:46] <shakes808> working in C#
[02:46] <Blazeix_> i do love modern c#
[02:47] <shakes808> My only exposure was the few months I was at that firm. I liked it. I got my associates in C++
[02:47] <shakes808> Wasn't horribly difficult to pick up
[02:53] <shakes808> For the VM, PyPy?
[02:55] <shakes808> and am I going to have to download Python again into the VM?
[02:56] <Blazeix_> you probably already have python on your system, but i think virtualenv may also download a version of python, not sure.
[02:56] <Blazeix_> you can just walk through the steps on pyramid's website to get you going
[03:03] <rick_h_> howdy
[03:03] <rick_h_> yea, the virtualenv will just symlink/copy the ptyhon on your system by default
[03:03] <rick_h_> don't mess with pypy yet, just something to confuse you
[03:12] <shakes808> alright
[03:12] <rick_h_> shakes808: so bring it to CHC tomorrow and I'll get you a project setup right
[03:13] <shakes808> sounds good. I am tying to get what I can on here so I can spend more time fiddling with code
[03:14] <rick_h_> sure thing, just realize that there are different 'templates' for apps and picking the right one to start out with will help make life easier
[03:14] <shakes808> Want to give me a quick run down on what I should install
[03:14] <rick_h_> maybe start with: http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid_tutorials/en/latest/humans/setup.html
[03:15] <shakes808> alright
[03:15] <shakes808> ty
[03:15] <rick_h_> I've not run through it, but seems like a good start
[03:15] <rick_h_> some other tutorials there as well: http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid_tutorials/en/latest/index.html
[03:16] <shakes808> ty
[03:21] <shakes808> Does it matter where I set up my directory layout?
[03:21] <shakes808> Where I am not going to have issues like my www/var at the moment and will still be able to serve them to test them out
[03:32] <rick_h_> shakes808: no, what I do is create a dir named 'src' in my home directory and put all my code stuff there
[03:32] <rick_h_> so I'd have /home/xxxx/src/tutorial1 or what not
[03:33] <widox> twitter fail. http://www.airdemon.net/hacker107.html
[03:34] <shakes808> alright
[03:36] <rick_h_> ouch
[03:36] <rick_h_> phew, don't appear to be in the list
[03:38] <snap-l> Great. Looks like my old LG monitor bit the dirt.
[03:40] <widox> anyone using Prismatic?
[03:40] <rick_h_> nope raw rss ftw
[03:41] <shakes808> I am on step 6 and it says: "bad interpreter: No such file or directory
[03:41] <widox> I'm trying it out, interesting to just poke around at specific topics
[03:43] <Blazeix_> one of my friends swears by prismatic now
[03:49] <greg-g>  you know, sometimes it doesn't hurt to just ask
[03:49] <greg-g> non sequitor
[03:49] <snap-l> greg-g: What are we asking?
[03:49] <greg-g> questions
[03:57] <Blazeix_> when are we asking them!?
[04:03] <Blazeix_> ...you all would make terrible protesters.
[04:05] <greg-g> Blazeix_: lol
[04:05] <greg-g> NOW!
[04:05] <greg-g> or maybe tomorrow
[04:05] <greg-g> we'll see
[04:06] <greg-g> you know, it depends
[04:06] <greg-g> I have this bowl to smoke first
[04:07] <shakes808> I have been looking through documentation and can't find any trouble shooting for the install of Pyramid
[04:07] <shakes808> Where would I be able to grab 6. $ easy_install pyramid WebTest nose
[04:13] <Blazeix_> shakes808: i would follow this guide: http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid/en/1.3-branch/narr/install.html
[04:14] <Blazeix_> that goes more in depth
[04:14] <Blazeix_> looks like running ez_setup.py will give you easy_install
[04:14] <snap-l> Yep, bloody LG monitor is toasty
[04:14] <shakes808> I have easy_install but not the file that it wants to use
[04:14] <snap-l> rick_h_: Thank you. I think you helped save me from a monitor that was about ready fo go on the fritz.
[04:15] <Blazeix_> shakes808: are you getting an error?
[04:16] <shakes808> aaron@Aaron:~/src/tutorial_workspace$ easy_install pyramid WebTest nose
[04:16] <shakes808> bash: /home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin/easy_install: /home/aaron/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin/python: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
[04:19] <snap-l> shakes808: It looks like your virtualenv isn't set up properly.
[04:20] <shakes808> snap-l: would that be step 4 in this tut? http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid_tutorials/en/latest/humans/setup.html
[04:20] <shakes808> I put: aaron@Aaron:~/src/tutorial_workspace$ export PATH=/home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin:$PATH
[04:20] <Blazeix_> looks like you forgot the 'src' directory in that step, maybe?
[04:21] <shakes808> bin:
[04:21] <shakes808> $PATH
[04:21] <snap-l> Blazeix_: I think that's it.
[04:21] <shakes808> what should I have put?
[04:21] <Blazeix_> in that line you posted, you have one as "/home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace" and the other is "/home/aaron/tutorial_workspace"
[04:22] <snap-l> also, you can check what is your current path by typing "env | grep PATH"
[04:22] <shakes808> probably because I made it in my home dir (tutorial_workspace) and then moved it to src after rick told me
[04:22] <snap-l> You might have several of them in there
[04:22] <snap-l> at which point you'll want to bring up a new shell, and try step 4+ again
[04:23] <shakes808> aaron@Aaron:~/src/tutorial_workspace$ env | grep PATH
[04:23] <shakes808> XDG_SESSION_PATH=/org/freedesktop/DisplayManager/Session0
[04:23] <shakes808> XDG_SEAT_PATH=/org/freedesktop/DisplayManager/Seat0
[04:23] <shakes808> DEFAULTS_PATH=/usr/share/gconf/ubuntu-2d.default.path
[04:23] <shakes808> PATH=/home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin:/home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin:/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin:/usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games
[04:23] <shakes808> MANDATORY_PATH=/usr/share/gconf/ubuntu-2d.mandatory.path
[04:23] <snap-l> shakes808: Yeah, start a new shell, and run step 4+ again
[04:23] <shakes808> alright
[04:23] <snap-l> I think you're working against yourself.
[04:25] <shakes808> getting the same thing
[04:25] <snap-l> What does `which easy_install` say?
[04:25] <shakes808> $ which easy_install
[04:25] <snap-l> also, did you make sure virtualenv was run with --no-site-packages?
[04:25] <shakes808> /home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin/easy_install
[04:25] <shakes808> aaron@Aaron:~/src/tutorial_workspace$ easy_install pyramid WebTest nose
[04:25] <shakes808> bash: /home/aaron/src/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin/easy_install: /home/aaron/tutorial_workspace/venv/bin/python: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
[04:26] <shakes808> correct
[04:26] <shakes808> did it how it was on the site
[04:26] <shakes808> the install part doesn't have src still
[04:26] <shakes808> should I delete the folder and restart terminal and try again?
[04:27] <snap-l> try starting from scratch (delete virtualenv-create directory, follow steps, etc)
[04:27] <shakes808> Or is it not that easy?
[04:27] <Blazeix_> maybe it got messed up when you moved the directory. there's probably some config somewhere that's pointing to the old location
[04:27] <shakes808> alright. To delete that is going to be: rm virtualenv
[04:28] <Blazeix_> maybe inside easy_install, check the first line of that file
[04:28] <Blazeix_> i bet it has a hard-coded path
[04:28] <Blazeix_> yeah, or just rm -r the directory, and start again, your choice
[04:28] <snap-l> Oh, it was moved? I missed that
[04:29] <Blazeix_> 00:22:29 by my clock
[04:29] <snap-l> Blazeix_: You're assuming I didn't skim right past that. :)
[04:29] <shakes808> what is the easiest way to save the file in vi? instead of sav! [filename]
[04:30] <snap-l> :w filename
[04:30] <snap-l> or just :w after opening the file
[04:30] <shakes808> the first line in there didn't have the /src/
[04:30] <shakes808> I am going to put it in and see what happens
[04:31] <shakes808> :D
[04:31] <shakes808> working now
[04:31] <snap-l> wIt worked?
[04:31] <shakes808> installing a bunch of stuff
[04:32] <snap-l> That would be a yes, then
[04:32] <shakes808> :D
[04:32] <Chat7924> Yo
[04:32] <Blazeix_> hi
[04:32] <shakes808> allo
[04:32] <lazeras> Whoa
[04:32] <shakes808> Thank you for the help
[04:32] <shakes808> :D
[04:33] <snap-l> np
[04:33] <lazeras> What's good people's?
[04:33] <lazeras> La de da
[04:42] <shakes808> lol YAY!
[04:42] <shakes808> works
[04:42] <snap-l> Awesome
[04:43] <shakes808> Thank you again for helping me set it up
[04:47] <snap-l>   np, glad it's working.
[05:05] <shakes808> Alright, logging off.  Now he's going to know I've been slacking this whole time."
[11:30] <snap-l> And it committed monitor seppuku
[11:31] <shakes808> Good morning all
[11:31] <snap-l> g'morning
[11:34] <shakes808> So the monitor is ded?
[11:38] <shakes808> http://1saleaday.com/wireless/
[11:50] <snap-l> shakes808: Yeah, no biggie, though
[11:51] <snap-l> Just kinda strange how it was working one moment, then suddenly went kaput the next.
[11:57] <brousch> i see some conversation from last night. you cannot move a virtualenv
[11:57] <brousch> there is a "portable" virtualenv, but i don't think it's stable
[11:57] <rick_h_> you can, but it's not advised
[11:57] <rick_h_> it requires renaming/updating magic paths
[11:58] <rick_h_> john has a script to help him do that when they used to (hope they stopped) syncying venv's around as a deploy setup
[11:58] <brousch> hehe
[12:00] <snap-l> There's a few deployment practices that I would do differently. :)
[12:00] <snap-l> I understand why they're there, but man...
[12:01] <shakes808> snap-l: Oh well, just take Diana's when she isn't looking ;)
[12:02] <snap-l> shakes808: You keep thinking that Diana is someone to be trifled with
[12:02] <shakes808> brousch: That was the problem. I went in and fixed the PATH for it
[12:02] <rick_h_> lol
[12:02] <rick_h_> I can assure you this is not true
[12:02] <shakes808> snap-l: rick_h_: ha ha, we will see.
[12:03] <snap-l> shakes808: It was nice knowing you.
[12:03] <shakes808> HA HA
[12:13] <shakes808> rick_h_: I got to the second tutorial on that page last night and it was blowing up on me. It probably is something stupid, was late when I was doing it, but was the same code as tutorial 1 that was blowing up. Tut 2 was showing unit testing. :D
[12:14] <shakes808> was blowing up at the ('<IP_ADDRESS>', 8080, app) on the 8080
[12:15] <brousch> do you have something already running on 8080?
[12:15] <brousch> try a different port, like 8081
[12:16] <shakes808> I will try that tonight. And nothing should have been running on 8080. In tut1  it was running on 8080 and I stopped it to run tut 2
[12:16] <shakes808> unless it was just hung up
[12:23] <brousch> oh wow, wtf. this tab in chromium shows it as using 2.5GB of RAM right now http://www.tedxgrandrapids.org/event-details-2/2012-schedule/
[12:24] <brousch> crazy
[12:51] <brousch> heh, for some definition of "good:
[12:51] <brousch> jacobian : Data point: Ubuntu has gotten good enough that I now know several people who've used it for a year+ without ever touching the terminal.
[12:59] <snap-l> I'm not sure they're exclusive of one another, but that's good to hear.
[12:59] <snap-l> I know my dad has come to prefer Ubuntu
[13:23] <shakes808> At the end of the meeting last night, I heard a lot of complaining about the task bar on the top. I don't understand why that would be an issue, I like that any active window's task bar is on the top of the screen; makes things more unified
[13:24] <rick_h_> MUG has a lot of old school linux'ers in there
[13:24] <rick_h_> so you'll hear a lot of griping of new/changed things
[13:24] <shakes808> lol
[13:24] <shakes808> gotcha
[13:25] <shakes808> How many people in the MUG group are DEV?
[13:25] <snap-l> That and some folks held their nose long enough to get used to GNOME
[13:25] <snap-l> shakes808: I think you'll find more admins than developers
[13:25] <shakes808> gotcha
[13:26] <snap-l> Maybe 3:1 admins to developers?
[13:26] <shakes808> So maybe a small handfull?
[13:26] <shakes808> gotcha
[13:27] <snap-l> I don't know what some folks do, though, so it may be a better radio than I realize
[13:27] <shakes808> Do you ever do MUG dev projects? Maybe make an OS? MUG-nux :D
[13:27] <rick_h_> we're the dev crowd :)
[13:27] <shakes808> HA HA
[13:27] <shakes808> nice
[13:27] <rick_h_> well Jim is all dev/business
[13:27] <snap-l> http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2012/05/bubble-20.html
[13:30] <jrwren> how was the LTSP presentation last night?
[13:30] <jrwren> wtf is Mr. Powers doing with it?
[13:30] <rick_h_> running a school
[13:30] <jrwren> i love that ASCAP is an anagram for ASPCA
[13:34] <shakes808> snap-l: what was that sound? Did you bring your drumset in? Sounded like a symbol lol
[13:34] <snap-l> shakes808: I'm at home, so NFC.
[13:34] <jrwren> i dev in python as my main job now. YAY
[13:34] <jrwren> and C too.
[13:34] <jrwren> no more PHP for me :)
[13:34] <jrwren> YAY
[13:35] <rick_h_> yay!
[13:35] <rick_h_> I bought django books last night :(
[13:35] <snap-l> rick_h_: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.bluegaspode.squeezeplayer
[13:35] <jrwren> what books?
[13:36] <jrwren> I've only read The Definitive Guide "Holovaty and Kaplan-Moss"
[13:36] <rick_h_> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058CR2HY/ref=docs-os-doi_0
[13:36] <rick_h_> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006OYO9SK/ref=docs-os-doi_0
[13:36] <rick_h_> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P1K0YY/ref=docs-os-doi_0
[13:37] <shakes808> Why not this one? http://www.amazon.com/Python-Web-Development-Django-ebook/dp/B001ANYCGO/ref=pd_sim_kstore_5?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2
[13:37] <shakes808> lol
[13:37] <shakes808> while you were at it :D
[13:37] <brousch> rick_h_: good to have onboard!
[13:37] <rick_h_> 2008 and not a fan of the publisher
[13:37] <rick_h_> shakes808: ^
[13:37] <brousch> you need your old ones back?
[13:37] <shakes808> Gotchya
[13:38] <jrwren> oh, $0.99 kindle, but i want dead trees
[13:38] <rick_h_> jrwren: yea, they're small quick things
[13:38] <rick_h_> free for prime members
[13:38] <rick_h_> so bonus
[13:38] <jrwren> 27 pages, 77 pages.
[13:38] <jrwren> I'm loving this revolution.
[13:38] <brousch> i hadn't seen those last 2. good find
[13:38] <rick_h_> right, just small tip after tip
[13:38] <rick_h_> kind of hard to read, but good info for me
[13:39] <shakes808> Are Amazon's books DRM-free?
[13:40] <shakes808> :D
[13:40] <rick_h_> no, orielly ones are I think
[13:40] <shakes808> :(
[13:40] <shakes808> oh
[13:40] <shakes808> lol
[13:40] <shakes808> I have a bunch of books
[13:40] <shakes808> if you want to go through them, you are more than welcome to them
[13:41] <shakes808> I haven't really had a chance to go through them myself. I have GBs worth of books
[13:43] <jrwren> borrow for free with prime.
[13:43] <jrwren> GAH!!! must have amazon prime!
[13:43] <rick_h_> prime ftw!
[13:45] <brousch> also coming some day: http://pragprog.com/book/rvrdj/solid-django
[13:54] <rick_h_> well I need to start writing django next week so 'some day' won't due for now :P
[13:59] <brousch> i'm glad you've finally come to your senses
[13:59] <rick_h_> shush
[14:02] <jrwren> the greatest strength of django is its simplicity
[14:02] <jrwren> the greatest weakness of django is its simplicity
[14:02] <rick_h_> psh
[14:07] <brousch> i thought the greatest strength of django was it's large community
[14:07] <shakes808> Thought that it was too big?
[14:07] <shakes808> libraries
[14:14] <ColonelPanic001> the greatest weakness of django is pronouncing its name.
[14:14] <shakes808> HA HA
[14:15] <jrwren> DeeJay Ango
[14:15] <jrwren> how else would you say it?
[14:16] <shakes808> JAYNGO
[14:16] <shakes808> :D
[14:16] <jrwren> yo yo yo dJ ango in the house!  getting funky on the microfone!
[14:16] <shakes808> Drop the D because we are not Aussie lol
[14:16] <waldo323_> jay and go?
[14:17] <snap-l> Apparently rick_h_ REALLY wants to use Google Hangouts for Lococast
[14:21] <shakes808> I never got a response from my comment earlier about having a MUG Dev Project of MUG-nux
[14:21] <shakes808> I am guessing that is a negative?
[14:21] <snap-l> I'm not sure what that even means.
[14:21] <shakes808> lol
[14:22] <shakes808> Make a Linux distro
[14:22] <snap-l> Um, that's a negative. :)
[14:22] <shakes808> lol :( ok
[14:22] <snap-l> I'll support you doing it, but making a distro is a lot of work
[14:23] <jrwren> the last thing the linux world needs is another distro
[14:23] <jjesse> +1
[14:23] <shakes808> I imagine, it wouldn't be over night or what not. My buddy and his dad were making an OS from Assembly. Not sure how far they got in that project, but I think they got the starts of it to work.
[14:24] <greg-g> but I have this reeeeaaaly great idea!!!
[14:24] <rick_h_> snap-l: :)
[14:24] <shakes808> lol
[14:24] <greg-g> (g'morning, btw)
[14:24] <jrwren> "an OS from Assembly" can mean a lot of things. Its pretty easy to write some code that x86 or x64 will boot.
[14:24] <jjesse> good morning greg-g
[14:24] <snap-l> rick_h_: Thank you. :)
[14:24] <jrwren> writing your own full TCP/IP stack on top of that and making it run other existing software is something else :)
[14:24] <shakes808> greg-g: morning
[14:25] <shakes808> I will have to see how far they got. I know he got the USB to work and some other stuffs
[14:26] <rick_h_> snap-l: np, that's the one I have <3 it
[14:26] <snap-l> shakes808: I think the main thing about writing a Linux distro is it isn't a one-time even
[14:26] <snap-l> event
[14:26] <snap-l> it's a commitment
[14:27] <snap-l> shakes808: You heard Jim talking about how he started the LTSP project
[14:27] <rick_h_> what, stop talking about doing a distro
[14:27] <rick_h_> enough insanity today
[14:27] <snap-l> rick_h_: I'll never tell someone they can't do something
[14:27] <shakes808> snap-l: yeah that it got big quick when Ubuntu and whoever else got on board
[14:27] <snap-l> If people listened to me, there wouldn't ahve been GNOME or KDE
[14:27] <shakes808> and that it is too big for him now and he just checks in from time to time
[14:28] <snap-l> Everyone has their own insanity to pursue
[14:28] <shakes808> haha
[14:28] <jrwren> snap-l: really? you were anti-gnome, even in the 0.30-pre time ?
[14:28] <snap-l> It's not up to the naysayers to tell them what they can't work on
[14:28] <rick_h_> hah, ok definitely don't take me seriously
[14:28] <snap-l> jrwren: I figured nobody needed another CDE clone
[14:28] <jrwren> rofl.
[14:29] <jrwren> i was happy to have anything that wasn't CDE
[14:29] <shakes808> I am not suggesting to be the next Ubuntu or major distro. Just something for the club to work on collectively and see where it goes.
[14:29] <snap-l> jrwren: But that's just it. GNOME and KDE grew to be so much more than just CDE
[14:29] <snap-l> shakes808: Definitely bring it up if you're interested
[14:29] <jrwren> shakes808: sounds like that is where your interest lies, I say go for it. Other folks are probably interested in other things.
[14:29] <snap-l> there may be some takers.
[14:31] <shakes808> snap-l: lol I am not that seasoned a developer or know how to start something like that, but just thought that it might be something that would be cool to do for the experience and get people thinking outside the box and get some creativity going.
[14:32] <snap-l> shakes808: If you want to do it, you'll probably have to spearhead it
[14:32] <shakes808> I am always looking to try something to expand what I could know.
[14:32] <snap-l> There are some projects for building distros
[14:32] <shakes808> If that is the case, let me get some other projects of mine started first :D
[14:32] <snap-l> http://www.tuxradar.com/content/build-your-own-linux-distribution-easy-way
[14:33] <shakes808> Like Jim said, "Life happened" and he had to step back from it because "it wasn't making him any money"
[14:33] <shakes808> Let me focus on that first and then I will look more into it ;)
[14:34] <snap-l> np.
[14:36] <shakes808> TY for the link. I will look at it later on
[15:16] <brousch> damnit. C# won't let me do a switch on a Double. come on, VBA let's me do it
[15:20] <rick_h_> widox Blazeix_: http://cssarrowplease.com/ kind of cool
[15:20] <rick_h_> widox: you coming to CHC? get a chance to try the colorhug?
[15:22] <widox> rick_h_: that's pretty slick
[15:22] <widox> no CHC tonight; have an awards thing to go to for my wife
[15:22] <rick_h_> ah, party on!
[15:22] <rick_h_> awards ftw
[15:22] <widox> I did get my laptop colorhuged though
[15:23] <rick_h_> how did it go?
[15:23] <widox> seems ok, I got used to the difference in about a day
[15:23] <rick_h_> cool
[15:23] <widox> only thing that's goofy, is the brightness. it seems dimmer all around then it used to
[15:24] <rick_h_> yea, I think that's intentional
[15:24] <rick_h_> I think it's more the muted colors
[15:24] <rick_h_> than physical brightness, but seen the same thing
[15:24] <widox> yeah, maybe so
[15:24] <shakes808> CSS stuff is cool :D
[15:25] <widox> but I like to turn my brightness down like 3 notches, helps battery life
[15:25] <rick_h_> right
[15:25] <widox> now, that's a bit to dim
[15:25] <shakes808> I am logging, see you at CHC if you are going
[15:29] <rick_h_> greg-g: help!
[15:38] <Blazeix> rick_h_: ah, useful
[15:57] <snap-l> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Online-Ordering-System.aspx
[16:11] <snap-l> Wow, Jamendo is really broken
[17:28] <greg-g> rick_h_: what?! :)
[17:42] <jrwren> brousch: technically you can't use == on a float or double type. Any language that lets you is asking for trouble or had better have defined a default epsilon for comparison
[17:48] <greg-g> snap-l: so, they fixed much of my concerns with the redesign vis a vis CC licneses
[17:48] <greg-g> I haven't checked search yet, though
[17:50] <greg-g> snap-l: by "much" I mean they responded to a few specific concerns from CC even though there are a couple more niggles
[17:51] <snap-l> greg-g: Yeah, I saw that.
[17:51] <snap-l> UNfortunately, you can't search on anything anymore.
[17:52] <greg-g> :( :(
[17:52] <snap-l> They really busted it
[17:52] <rick_h_> greg-g: so I've got a technical question for you, I'm wrapping some code in a file that's Copyright Google, and trying to split what's ours/theirs. http://paste.mitechie.com/show/aDxVm412A0JupwXeqliP/
[17:53] <rick_h_> greg-g: is there some particular way I should know to do that? mark it derivative work somehow or something?
[17:53] <rick_h_> and people out there in the world just need to fall over dead...faith in humanity destroyed in the last hour
[17:53] <greg-g> snap-l: wait, what? I see the option to search by license
[17:54] <snap-l> greg-g: Try searching for latest releases in Metal
[17:54] <snap-l> or search on a band's name.
[17:54] <snap-l> territory, for instance.
[17:54] <snap-l> Ah, I think something was broken eaerlier.
[17:55] <snap-l> Yeah, it's working now
[17:55] <greg-g> snap-l: I can't find genres easily (if at all)
[17:55] <greg-g> rick_h_: looking/thinking
[17:55] <rick_h_> greg-g: end of the day it was brought up to email the issue to legal, not used to that idea
[17:55] <snap-l> Click on the search box
[17:56] <rick_h_> greg-g: so I'll wait for the official word, but started out thinking you might have an idea on the right way to denote that kind of inter-mixing
[17:56] <greg-g> rick_h_: so.. you're just wrapping the like 5 line google analytics drop in code?
[17:56] <rick_h_> greg-g: well it's 100+ lines with 5 lines of my own
[17:57] <rick_h_> the ... just so you get the idea, it goes on for a while
[17:57] <greg-g> huh
[17:57] <greg-g> can I ask what that google code is/came from?
[17:58] <rick_h_> google analytics, we got permissionto pull it and serve it from our servers since we have a policy of not loading 3rd party JS
[17:58] <greg-g> ohhhhhhh
[17:58] <greg-g> interesting
[17:58] <rick_h_> now because we're serving it, I want to wrap it in a YUI module so our JS combination systems can effeciently serve that out to users
[17:58] <greg-g> huh, uhhh, well, I assume legal told them that LP is AGPL :)
[17:58] <rick_h_> yea
[17:58] <rick_h_> we got permission from Google
[17:58] <greg-g> maybe now google analytics is AGPL :)
[17:59] <snap-l> greg-g: Probably just that little bit of javascript
[17:59] <rick_h_> so not sure what that involved, but know that we got permission and that's why it's noted that it's Google copyright in the original file I'm wrapping
[17:59] <greg-g> snap-l: doesn't sound like it, sounds like the part that is loaded from google's servers
[17:59] <snap-l> greg-g: Was being clueless / facetious. :)
[18:00] <greg-g> yeah, if they MIT/BSD license that code, or AGPL it, then all is kosher. but it probably can't stay All Rights Reserved
[18:00] <greg-g> snap-l: :)
[18:00] <snap-l> greg-g: I think All Rights Reserved is copyright's 'sincerely'
[18:00] <greg-g> rick_h_: can you send me Canonical Legal's response when you get it? :)
[18:00]  * greg-g is just curious
[18:00] <snap-l> have seen that in instances where it clearly isn't 'all rights reserved'
[18:01] <greg-g> or, what bzr repo should I watch to see the outcome? :)
[18:01] <rick_h_> greg-g: k
[18:01] <snap-l> rick_h_: Can we at least wait until 12/21/2012 before humanity drops dead?
[18:01] <greg-g> yeah, what was that about?
[18:01] <snap-l> I want to give props to the mayans if they call it.
[18:02] <greg-g> heh
[18:02] <rick_h_> just on the road and had two different idiots try to kill me, both flipped me off and got agressive on me
[18:02] <greg-g> :( ugh
[18:02] <greg-g> sorry man
[18:02] <snap-l> rick_h_: bike-rage?
[18:02] <rick_h_> and of course Lowes being a bunch of dips...order a mower "7-14 days"
[18:02] <rick_h_> no, this was in a car
[18:02] <snap-l> rick_h_: Ah, that's inexcusable
[18:02] <greg-g> if it makes you feel any better, a minivan got within 6 inches of me on my ride home the other day. I punched it 4 times. They stopped and looked at me dumbfounded
[18:02] <rick_h_> so go in today to pick up my mower since I've got a long lawn..."oh, didn't they call you? It's on backorder until the 23rd"
[18:02] <snap-l> (not that bike-rage is excusable)
[18:03] <rick_h_> so canceled the order and amazon will have it here friday via Prime free shipping
[18:03] <greg-g> ok, maybe 10 inches. either way, much less than the 3 feet required by law
[18:03] <rick_h_> should have done that to start with...but hey...support the local cool Lowes store and all that crap
[18:03] <rick_h_> taking 29 days what Amz can get to me in 2...not going to work there Lowes
[18:05] <greg-g> wow, yeah, no way
[18:06] <rick_h_> what sucks is I had to go in there to get this info. They could have at least called to say "hey, your 7-14 day ordered is bumped to a month now"
[18:06] <rick_h_> bah, I'm fired up and cranky now.../me pulls back and gets a drink
[18:15] <snap-l> rick_h_: So you'll get hte fun of having the UPS guy hand you a lawnmower
[18:15] <snap-l> like we just did with a sewing machine
[18:15] <snap-l> (Amazon gold box deal)
[18:16] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, at least I'll have a mowed lawn this weekend
[18:16] <snap-l> true dat
[18:28] <snap-l> https://shinyplasticbag.com/dragondrop/ <- Linux users got this for free whenever X crashed.
[18:46] <nixternal> greg-g: i wear the sidi toe spikes on my mtb shoes when out on my cross bike. i taught one driver not to fuck with me when I have those shoes on. punched a total of 9 perfect holes into their door & kept going
[18:46] <nixternal> wonder how long it took them to realize they had holes on the right side of their car
[18:46] <rick_h_> ouch
[18:47] <nixternal> i didn't mean to, but after the 3rd kick to the side, i noticed what i was doing, so i kept going, just with more aggression
[18:58] <greg-g> nixternal: wow
[18:58] <greg-g> hey, if I can reach you, you're too close, right? :)
[19:05] <nixternal> greg-g: that's the way I feel. now most of the time I just ignore it, unless i can catch them at a light
[19:06] <nixternal> if i am cruising and not training and they do it, i will yell as an attempt to get them to stop & get out of their car. it works from time-to-time
[19:28] <snap-l> Apparently today is delivery day.
[19:29] <waldo323_> thats good i hope
[19:29] <snap-l> Got JoDee's anniverary gift, a replacement power adapter for her computer,
[19:29] <snap-l> and a camera so rick_h_ can peek at me in my undies.
[19:30] <waldo323_> ew
[19:30] <snap-l> snap-lcam
[19:31] <nixternal> i just threw up a little in my mouth
[19:31] <nixternal> oh hell, who am i kidding....i just puked everywhere bastard!
[19:32] <greg-g> nixternal: hey, at least you didn't have to share a room with nixternal at penguicon, oh wait....
[19:33] <nixternal> hey hey now
[19:33] <nixternal> if you didn't break into that room, we wouldn't have shared it in the first place
[19:34] <greg-g> that was fun
[19:34] <greg-g> "here, hold my beer"
[19:36] <snap-l> Yay, and VirtualBox works on thislaptop
[19:36] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: can I make a constructive suggestion?  Never get your significant other computer parts as an anniversary gift.
[19:37] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: It's a marriage-saver when she can power her laptop agai
[19:37] <waldo323_> what about christmas and birthdays? :)
[19:38] <snap-l> waldo323_: so many ways to go completely wrong with that
[19:38] <devinheitmueller> waldo323_: I wouldn't recommend it for birthdays either - I found that one out the hard way.
[19:38] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: You're supposed to keep it in the package, not put it on the package.
[19:38] <devinheitmueller> uh
[19:38]  * snap-l gives myself a 5 minute time-out
[19:42] <snap-l> btw: if anyone wants to save $25 off on a Ting.com phone, please use this offer code: https://z6oc11q87.ting.com/
[19:44] <snap-l> So far I'm pretty happy with it, although the phone that I got has limited wifi range.
[20:27] <brousch> damn i hate windows
[20:27] <brousch> you cannot copy a dll from anetwork drive to the program files and have it work
[20:27] <brousch> you have to copy it to the desktop, then move it to program files
[20:36] <snap-l> brousch: THere's probably some behind-the-scenes registering that goes on when you do it that way
[20:37] <brousch> it is idiotic
[20:38] <brousch> only cost me 30mins of my day
[20:38] <brousch> i have a version of my c# project in the hands of a user now, so that's going well
[21:58] <shakes808> Good day all
[22:27] <shakes808> can anyone see this?
[22:27] <rick_h_> yes
[22:27] <JonEdney> Yep
[23:09] <shakes808> I registered my name and it wants to do some NickServ thing and it says I need to log in
[23:45] <JonEdney> shakes808, did you get your NickServ thing fixed?
[23:45] <shakes808> nope
[23:45] <JonEdney> You registered your name?
[23:45] <shakes808> yeah
[23:46] <JonEdney> You should be able to type /msg NickServ identify PASSWORD
[23:46] <JonEdney> And that will "log you in"
[23:46] <shakes808> I do that and it says...
[23:48] <shakes808> invalid password
[23:49] <shakes808> but i know it is the pass i set it up with
[23:52] <shakes808> going to ask for a pass reset


[04:35] <jean> hello
[04:35] <Unit193> Hello!@
[04:37] <jean> I'm new using ubuntu studio, would you suggest to me sothing to understand quicly this software?
[04:37] <Unit193> Perhaps https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide ?
[04:38] <jean> ok, thank you
[06:43] <coelebs> how to make gimp paint bucket tool behave like the one on older paint programs?
[06:44] <coelebs> so it wont leave thin white line between line and fill
[06:45] <cfhowlett> coelebs, ask #gimp
[08:06] <ObrienDave> so, why isn't the 64bit on the torrent page yet? http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/
[10:24] <snowplow> Hello
[10:25] <snowplow> I've lost sound on my Asus KD72R laptop
[10:25] <snowplow> Seems it uses ALSA by default
[10:25] <snowplow> How to fix it?
[15:14] <yorwos> hi all , I'm getting some weird things on my software updater . 2 files : "linux kernel image for version 3.13.0 on 64 bit x86 SMP"  + "lowlatency linux kernel image". same for headers 2files.  is this normal ? i dont understand whats different between those 2 files (1st time i see the SMP thingy)
[19:18] <user_> Hello
[19:18] <delt_> at mypar
[19:18] <delt_> oops
[19:18] <delt_> at my parents house, trouble with the sound card on compaq laptop
[19:18] <delt_> output works fine, no mic input.
[19:20] <caboose885> delt_, was the mic input previously working or has it never been working?
[19:20] <delt_> works fine in windows, linux no go
[19:20] <delt_> using pulseaudio, default setup
[19:20] <delt_> pavucontrol shows no input signal.
[19:21] <caboose885> what model laptop?
[19:21] <delt_> compaq, alsamixer shows sound card as Nvidia MCP77/78 HDMI
[19:22] <delt_> compaq presario cq60
[19:23] <caboose885> so headphones work but mic doesn't?
[19:23] <delt_> speakers work... havent tested headphones
[19:24] <caboose885> I bet headphones might not work
[19:24] <delt_> output works fine, but no input from device. the application (ie. skype) shows up in pavucontrol's input streams but no signal
[19:24] <caboose885> it seems like it might be trying to push audio over HDMI only
[19:24] <caboose885> does it have two sound devices available in the sound manager?
[19:24] <delt_> trying to find a pair of headphones to test....
[19:25] <delt_> sound manager as in pavucontrol?
[19:25] <caboose885> try "aplay -l"
[19:25] <caboose885> from terminal
[19:25] <caboose885> yep delt_
[19:26] <delt_> http://pastebin.com/2tA02T29
[19:26] <delt_> headphones are working fine btw
[19:27] <caboose885> oh ok. Thats good.
[19:27] <caboose885> we are talking about the built in mic correct?
[19:28] <delt_> yep.
[19:28] <delt_> weird, everything else is working fine.
[19:29] <caboose885> so it looks like one user was able to fix their issue with adding the following line to /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf " options snd-hda-intel model=hp position_fix=1 enable=yes"
[19:29] <caboose885> no idea if that will work for you though
[19:29] <caboose885> you will have to reboot I believe for changes to take effect
[19:30] <delt_> or unload/reload the hda module
[19:30] <caboose885> I had a similar issue with my netbook. By default my mic and headphones wouldn't work
[19:30] <delt_> rebooting is probably easier....
[19:30] <caboose885> delt_, try it :)
[19:30] <caboose885> whatever you think is better for you
[19:30] <delt_> okie, here goes...
[19:31] <caboose885> good luck sir
[19:31] <caboose885> hopefully it fixes it
[19:32] <delt_> thanks, rebooting now...
[19:32]  * caboose885 twiddles thumbs
[19:35] <caboose885> wb
[19:35] <user_> caboose885, thanks! works, parents very happy :D
[19:35] <caboose885> :D
[19:35] <caboose885> awesome. Glad it was an easy fix.
[19:35] <caboose885> and I didn't break anythign
[19:35]  * caboose885 wipes sweat away
[19:41] <user_> hehheh (: thanks !!
[19:41] <user_> so i'll be back later from home.
[19:42] <caboose885> alrighty. Good luck :)
[19:48] <caboose885> many of the questions I've seen asked in here could be answered in #ubuntu. Maybe include that in the topic that way if no one here is around to help the user doesn't walk away unassisted? Worst case #ubuntu tells them to ask in here :)
[20:55] <delt_> Hello again
[20:55] <delt_> the laptop lid bug is still present in 14.04.1
[20:55] <delt_> screen turns off, no way to get it back on.
[21:24] <delt_> ok, with the nvidia proprietary driver, the lid doesnt black out the screen but causes other problems (this hardware is kind of dodgy)
[21:25] <delt_> so i have to use the nouveau driver, except with this driver, the screen blacks out when i close the laptop lid, only way to get it back is to reboot


[00:00] <davecheney> var m = make(map[string]int)
[00:01] <davecheney> type T struct { name string }
[01:26]  * thumper is beginning to want proper inheritance in go...
[01:26]  * thumper sighs
[01:28]  * thumper has another thought...
[01:28] <thumper> gah, must finish something before starting another
[01:28]  * thumper puts head down again
[02:22] <thumper> davecheney: by splitting out the SetFlags from the Init, a bunch of tests are failing...
[02:22] <thumper> davecheney: as they are testing Init
[02:22] <thumper> davecheney: is there a place where we put helper test functions?
[02:23] <thumper> davecheney: for example, jujud/agent_test.go has a method called initCmd
[02:23] <thumper> which creates some flags, and calls init
[02:23] <thumper> I added the setflags to it, and I'd like to make the function more generally useful in other tests
[02:27]  * thumper guesses davecheney is at lunch
[02:43] <davecheney> thumper: generally suite_test.go is a good start
[02:43] <davecheney> but i think you have to leiway to create your own tradition
[04:00] <thumper> whoever thought that "c *C" were good params for tests should be given a very stern look
[04:16]  * thumper jumps through hoops
[04:21]  * thumper wonders if 1000 lines of diff are enough for first change to juju
[04:27] <davecheney> thumper: i'd say most things are up for grabs if you are prepared to argue your case
[04:27] <thumper> hmm...
[04:28] <thumper> davecheney: are there dependencies between the juju-core packages that I have to make sure I don't screw up?
[04:31] <davecheney> thumper: not sure i parsed that correctly
[04:31] <thumper> davecheney: there are tests lying around...
[04:31] <thumper> davecheney: and I want to put some common command test helper methods into juju-core/testing
[04:32] <davecheney> kk
[04:32] <thumper> which would add a depencency on juju-core/cmd
[04:32] <thumper> which I don't think is there yet
[04:32] <thumper> likely to be fine?
[04:32] <davecheney> sure
[04:32] <thumper> kk
[04:32] <davecheney> I'm sure there is alreayd a dep between cmd/juju and cmd
[04:33] <davecheney> thumper: go list -f '{{ .Imports }}' launchpad.net/juju-core/cmd/juju
[04:33] <davecheney> ^ direct imports of cmd/juju
[04:33] <davecheney> go list -f '{{ .Deps }}' launchpad.net/juju-core/cmd/juj
[04:33] <davecheney> ^ all transitive deps
[04:33] <thumper> ah...
[04:33] <thumper> handy
[04:33] <thumper> I may try that shortly
[04:50] <thumper> holy shit
[04:50] <wallyworld_> thumper: you got your rietveld account all set up for your mp?
[04:50] <thumper> realised that my tollerance for duplication in tests is way below some others
[04:50] <thumper> wallyworld_: no
[04:51] <wallyworld_> thumper: it's not just tests - i'm finding Go to be very verbose
[04:51] <thumper> wallyworld_: this isn't go
[04:51] <thumper> it is just code
[04:51] <wallyworld_> yeah agreed, it's also elsewhere
[05:08] <thumper> davecheney: umm... if I Ctrl-C the tests while running, have I left things behind that might cause further tests to hang?
[05:10] <davecheney> thumper: in theory no
[05:10] <davecheney> in practice
[05:10] <davecheney> yes, you'll eventyualy leak enough mongo processes to run out of swap
[05:11] <davecheney> if you put /tmpfs on swap, then you ahve to be doubly careful
[05:11] <davecheney> as each mongo will write 200mb of journal files on startup
[05:22] <thumper> hmm...
[05:22] <thumper> ok, something to watch for then :)
[05:22] <thumper> I'm almost at the state of making all these tests pass again...
[05:22] <davecheney> neat
[05:22] <thumper> hmm...
[05:22] <thumper> $ bzr diff | wc -l
[05:22] <thumper> 1467
[05:23] <thumper> although, not quite that bad:  58 files changed, 223 insertions(+), 188 deletions(-)
[05:23] <thumper> and much of that is duplicated
[05:24] <thumper> ok, I hear the kids home
[05:24] <thumper> tests are running, pretty confident
[05:24] <thumper> tomorrow lets get this reviewed and landed
[05:24] <thumper> night all
[05:25] <davecheney> night
[05:26] <davecheney> got a branch ?
[05:26] <thumper> work  up at  lp:~thumper/juju-core/command-set-flags if you are curious
[05:26]  * thumper signs off
[05:26] <davecheney> kk
[05:26] <thumper> and all tests passed \o/
[06:52] <wallyworld_> davecheney: hi, thanks for finding that data race. what tool did you use?
[08:13] <TheMue> Morning
[08:14] <dimitern> TheMue: morning!
[08:25] <fwereade> dimitern, TheMue, heyhey
[08:25] <dimitern> fwereade: hiya
[08:25] <TheMue> fwereade, dimitern: Hi
[08:25] <fwereade> dimitern, TheMue: fwiw I have a few constraints branches from last night up
[08:25] <dimitern> fwereade: yeah, already on these
[08:26] <fwereade> dimitern, you rock
[08:26] <fwereade> TheMue, you have a trivial LGTM on the deletes branch
[08:26] <TheMue> fwereade: Yep, thx, just doing the final merging and test.
[08:28] <rogpeppe> mornin' all
[08:28] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Hiya
[08:28] <rogpeppe> TheMue: yo!
[08:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe: morning
[08:28] <rogpeppe> dimitern: hi!
[10:23] <dimitern> fwereade: you've got 2 reviews
[10:23] <fwereade> dimitern, tyvm
[10:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ping
[10:35] <rogpeppe> fwereade: pong
[10:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, last weekend, I had a thought related to the api
[10:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok
[10:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, would you agree that the following is a valid perspective: a machine agent can be defined to be trusted, or not, dependent on whether it has a state.Info and can hence connect directly to mongo
[10:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and that we thus always require that at least one trusted machine exists
[10:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: given that the state.Info contains a valid password, yeah
[10:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, because we need it to run the API server, through which untrusted machine/unit agents will connect
[10:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yup
[10:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: there must always be at least one API server running
[10:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok, so, if we keep the Provisioner and Firewaller just as they are, and only allow them to run on trusted machines -- against a state.Conn, I think you get to cut down the API surface quite pleasingly (and not need to even *touch* the code for the pro/fw)
[10:40] <rogpeppe> fwereade: hmm, i'm not sure
[10:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that way we don't even expose an EnvironConfig API call that returns the user's credentials
[10:40] <rogpeppe> fwereade: how does a trusted machine get the credentials in the first place?
[10:41] <fwereade> rogpeppe, however it does as it is? sorry, I'm not sure of the impact, can you expand?
[10:41] <fwereade> rogpeppe, machine 0 would have it magically; subsequent machine agents that need to run trusted tasks would, I presume, get the state info published to them
[10:41] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'd envisaged that we'd be able to repurpose an existing machine to run any job
[10:41] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I had a vague feeling that was in line with the approx plans?
[10:42] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I think we still can
[10:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: so how do we publish the state info to an existing machine?
[10:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe, you had the plans for a Publisher of API info, right? why not analogously for state info, but with more restrictions in the API?
[10:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: sure. but surely the place to publish it is in the state, no?
[10:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, via the API... right?
[10:44] <rogpeppe> fwereade: bingo
[10:44] <rogpeppe> [10:40:12] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that way we don't even expose an EnvironConfig API call that returns the user's credentials
[10:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok, but the attack surface is limited to that one call... much like Login
[10:45] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ah, no i see
[10:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and I *think* the savings form not having to implement the API bits that are only used by trusted workers will be handy
[10:45] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, i think that certainly for an interim period, your suggestion is good
[10:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, we can evaluate how well it works :)
[10:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: rather than having an EnvironConfig call, we have a MongoStateInfo call (or something) which gives untrammelled access to the underlying state
[10:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, btw, ISTM that the tools param to Environ.StartInstance is used very rarely indeed
[10:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, exactly
[10:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that information feels like the stuff we also have to give to a machine running another Stater to connect them all up
[10:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not sure long term though
[10:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: having direct access to the state feels a bit like granting root access
[10:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, don't worry, I'm not laying down cathedral plans ;)
[10:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sure, agreed
[10:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and actually neither provisioner or firewaller need that level of access
[10:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: only the API server does
[10:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, agreed -- I am not laying down cathedral plans
[10:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok
[10:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'm suggesting that it's a good interim goal because it looks like the quickest way to get all our code running with *a* security boundary in place
[10:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the only difficulty is that the logic in the machiner becomes more complex
[10:52] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but that's probably a reasonable tradeoff
[10:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it feels tolerable, yeah
[10:57] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, it looks like we could get rid of the tools arg to StartInstance without losing anything significant
[11:04] <rogpeppe> fwereade: trivial CL: https://codereview.appspot.com/7317050
[11:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe, well, I think the tools interact very closely, I'm still trying to figure out the right way to go
[11:08] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i managed to reproduce that mongodb "--format provided but not defined error" BTW. i'm not entirely sure which command is drawing that error, hence my trivial CL above.
[11:08] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that's the bug i found w.r.t. the mongodb charm, BTW
[11:09] <fwereade> rogpeppe, LGTM trivial
[11:09] <rogpeppe> fwereade: thank
[11:09] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but it's not reliably reproducible?
[11:09] <rogpeppe> s
[11:09] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, it is
[11:10] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ah, fantastic
[11:10] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it just takes a while to do it
[11:10] <fwereade> rogpeppe, heh
[11:12] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'm thinking of --upload-tools, which I think at the moment just uses version.Current, which is probably right (given an absence of cross-compiling)
[11:13] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it can't do anything else, yeah
[11:13] <fwereade> rogpeppe, in which case we have to check that the series and arch of the image/instance we start actually match what we're uploading
[11:14] <rogpeppe> fwereade: hmm, i have to think about that a bit
[11:14] <rogpeppe> fwereade: currently upload-tools is just an argument to bootstrap
[11:14] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and there's nothing stopping you from provisioning more instances that don't use the originally uploaded tools
[11:14] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, and vice versa
[11:15] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok then, cool
[11:15] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not sure what you mean by "vice versa" there actually.
[11:15] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you can't upload tools later
[11:15] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we *just* upload the tools we can, and the user is responsible for starting instances on which they will actually run
[11:16] <fwereade> rogpeppe, oh, I thought upgrade-juju could do that?
[11:16] <rogpeppe> fwereade: oh yeah, so it does!
[11:16] <fwereade> rogpeppe, :D
[11:17] <rogpeppe> [11:16:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, we *just* upload the tools we can, and the user is responsible for starting instances on which they will actually run
[11:17] <rogpeppe> +1
[11:17] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok, sweet
[11:17] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I am also eyeing environs.FindTools
[11:18] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I am suspecting that it should somehow give me a list of available tools matching certain criteria (filter on series and arches, I think)
[11:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah. the significant issue around this is that currently we choose what tools an instance will run before we actually ask the provider to start the instance
[11:19] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that is I think ok
[11:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but if the provider itself can decide on an architecture, for example, then that might be a problem
[11:20] <rogpeppe> fwereade: perhaps FindTools should take a Constraints as an argument?
[11:20] <rogpeppe> [11:20:10] <rogpeppe> fwereade: perhaps FindTools should take a Constraints as an argument?
[11:20] <rogpeppe> although series isn't really a constraint
[11:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe, perhaps -- yeah, I'm eyeing (series string, cons Constraints) args
[11:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that said... it would be *really* convenient if Series was a constraint
[11:21] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, and... why shouldn't it be?
[11:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, because it's not something amenable to direct control like the others
[11:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the series is determined by the service's charm, which itself may be determined by the environ's default-series
[11:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: isn't it actually in a way *more* amenable to direct control (we can start different series on a given piece of hardware)
[11:23] <fwereade> rogpeppe, from the juju level, it is -- juju deploy cs:precise/foobar -- bam, there's precise
[11:23] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and there's the distinct setting of constraints, in which series does not play a part
[11:23] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not intrinsicaly opposed to the idea that a charm might influence the constraints of the machine that's started to deploy it
[11:23] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it *must*
[11:23] <fwereade> rogpeppe, precise charms run on precise
[11:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, quantal charms run on quantal
[11:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, etc
[11:24] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok, so how can the series *not* be part of the constraints?
[11:25] <rogpeppe> fwereade: BTW how does getting a list of available tools from FindTools help you?
[11:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it is not entirely clear that the internal representation of a Constraints should *necessarily* carry with it the series information which is specified in a different way and could I think be inferred where necessary
[11:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: all constraints are optional, no? so there's no "necessary" there.
[11:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe, series is not optional
[11:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, which is another way in which it is different to the other constraints
[11:27] <rogpeppe> fwereade: no constraint is optional when the machine is actually instantiated :-)
[11:28] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that's information about a running instance, which we do want to match against constraints in future; but they are not themselves constraints
[11:28] <fwereade> rogpeppe, they represent a solution to the constraints, if you like
[11:28] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, and the form of the solution might look exactly like a Constraint :-)
[11:29] <fwereade> rogpeppe, they do indeed look very similar
[11:29] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but actually not exactly the same :)
[11:29] <rogpeppe> fwereade: anyway, i'm not sure i see the advantage to passing the series around as an extra parameter to the constraints.
[11:30] <rogpeppe> rather, a parameter extra to the constraints
[11:30] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and i definitely see simplicity advantages to including it with the constraints
[11:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'm not sure the case is overwhelming either way, is all; it could easily be stored on state.Machine when a unit is assigned -- you always have a series, because the unit has a service has a charm -- as well as the service having constraints
[11:31] <rogpeppe> fwereade: in fact, if series was part of the constraints, we perhaps wouldn't need default-series
[11:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I don't think it's the same thing, quite
[11:32] <rogpeppe> fwereade: because it could be specified by the environment's series constraint.
[11:33] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that's where the default would come from -- but then you override that constraint in a different and magical way when you deploy, and you can't even set it from the UI
[11:34] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm not sure it's "magical" - every charm comes with an implied series constraint.
[11:35] <rogpeppe> fwereade: maybe you would want some special case code to prevent you setting a service's series constraint to something other than the charm's series though.
[11:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I am weighing up the costs and benefits of that special casing
[11:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I don;t feel entirely in favour of it: I think that doing that in the python was a bit of a mistake
[11:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but tbh, "series" doesn't seem like something that should be so special. it's special now because everything's ubuntu-only.
[11:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I don;t suppose you know if there's a wiki page for the sprint yet?
[11:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade: not afaik
[11:36]  * rogpeppe must book flights
[11:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it's gonna be very special one day, I just hope it can bear the load that's put on its shoulders
[11:36] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it's in charms, it's in juju, and it's our one way of specifying a target os
[11:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i could see it becoming a (os, os-version) tuple
[11:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, indeed it might
[11:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but maybe that's just a compound name
[11:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, plausibly
[11:37] <dimitern> anyone seen mramm ?
[11:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'd prefer it to be two attributes as part of the constraints though,
[11:38] <fwereade> dimitern, we can all dogpile him when he gets on :)
[11:38] <dimitern> fwereade: :D sure
[11:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: to put it another way, what *wouldn't* work well (or be more complex) if series was part of the constraints?
[11:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, environ-level series constraints would be weird -- they'd work a bit like default-series and a bit like the other constraints
[11:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: say we took default-series to be just the seed for setting the environ-level series constraint? would that cause problems?
[11:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: (we've already got to segregate default series from the other environment config params)
[11:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: (mind you, that's true of the agent version field too, and probably others)
[11:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah -- I think that it is tempting to put lots of stuff into constraints but I want to grow it prudently
[11:44] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i would *not* put the agent version into constraints
[11:44] <fwereade> rogpeppe, quite so
[11:45] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but i think series does work well as a constraint
[11:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe, a constraint that can't be set like the other constraints, can't be changed like the other constraints, and affects parts of the codebase that no other constraints impact?
[11:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, it *may* indeed be a good place for it
[11:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but it will take some pretty seriously ugliness on the other side to balance that out
[11:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, so, anyway, as I solve the constraints I will eliminate various images and instance-types from consideration, but I will still probably end up with multiple candidates
[11:49] <fwereade> rogpeppe, of those that the provider offers, there may not be tools available
[11:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, gaah, sorry
[11:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: np
[11:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, what was the last thing you saw?
[11:51] <rogpeppe> [11:49:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe, of those that the provider offers, there may not be tools available
[11:51] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cool, that was all I'd said
[11:52] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah, i see where you're coming from
[11:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but still I will end up with a bunch of possible instance/image pairs, and appropriate tools for each, and then have to try to pick the "best" according to whatever soft constraints we have
[11:53] <fwereade> rogpeppe, that's a separate problem though
[11:53] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the thing to be careful of is that you always want to pick from Storage over PublicStorage where possible.
[11:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, hmm, if you want to use your own storage you're surely using it for higher-than-public versions..?
[11:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: "where possible" might just mean "where the difference is just in version  number"
[11:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: no, not necessarily
[11:55] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's important that you be able to upload lower-than-public versions too
[11:55] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and have them used
[11:55] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that was a significant part of the current design
[11:57] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok, sgtm, thank you for pointing that out
[11:57] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it means that if you use upload-tools, you rely on the fact that you're going to run the uploaded tools (assuming that you deploy to the same architecture)
[11:57] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but wait
[11:57]  * rogpeppe waits with baited breath
[11:57] <rogpeppe> or is it "bated bread"?
[11:57] <rogpeppe> breath
[11:58] <rogpeppe> ah, it is
[11:58] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the latter -- and fwereade is not sure
[11:58]  * fwereade has just been reminded that he has to visit the shops for cath's lunch; bbiab
[11:58] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok
[12:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, heyhey
[12:28] <rogpeppe> fwereade: hihi
[12:29] <fwereade> rogpeppe, can we explore the public/private use cases a little more? I think I need a little refresher
[12:29] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok
[12:30] <rogpeppe> fwereade: motivating example #1: we want to be able to run the local dev version of the tools without worrying about what might be in a public bucket
[12:33] <rogpeppe> fwereade: what in particular are you interested in finding out?
[12:35] <fwereade> rogpeppe, hum, ok, so: does FindTools currently return the latest compatible tools in private, or if that's not there the latest compatible tools in public?
[12:35] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yup
[12:37] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ok, so, I think the FindTools variant wants to return all latest matching private toolses, followed by all latest matching public toolses?
[12:37]  * rogpeppe likes "toolses"
[12:37] <fwereade> :)
[12:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'd like to see a sketch of your algorithm for constraints solving before i commit to whether that's the right approach or not
[12:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe, 1) eliminate non-matching instance types
[12:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe, 2) eliminate non-matching images
[12:39] <fwereade> rogpeppe, discard bad combinations in (1) x (2)
[12:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, (that may not come exactly there, but will be somewhere)
[12:40] <fwereade> rogpeppe, 3) eliminate images for which no tools can be found
[12:41] <fwereade> rogpeppe, 4) discard bad combinations
[12:41] <fwereade> 5) magic happens here to nail down exactly which one we pick
[12:42] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i've been wondering about the possibility of *starting* with the available tools
[12:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but i'm not quite sure how that would look, or whether it would be better or worse. i suppose anything that eliminates more possibilities earlier is to be preferred.
[12:43] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, it shouldn't be too hard to reorder stages if we need to
[12:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: that depends if each stage is dealing with a list of the same things
[12:46] <fwereade> rogpeppe, well, yes: we were I think talking about two stages of image-filtering
[12:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: {instance-type} -> {(instance-type, image)} -> {(instance-type, image, tools)}
[12:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: is that a reasonable summary of what the data types might look like through each stage?
[12:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: where {a} represents a set of a, and (a, b) represents a tuple of a and b.
[12:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, roughly like that
[12:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: got lunch. back in a short while.
[12:58]  * dimitern lunch
[13:05] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yo!
[13:22] <fwereade> niemeyer, heyhey
[13:23] <niemeyer> Heya
[13:23]  * fwereade goes to eat the other half of lunch that he neglected before
[13:43] <rogpeppe> fwereade: from the mongodb charm uniter log: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1676994/
[14:05] <fwereade> rogpeppe, what's --format json meant to do for relation-set?
[14:06] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ha, good question, i'd missed that
[14:06] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm surprised the python version allows it
[14:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, (that is to say: grar, I guess to match python we need to implement the --format stuff on every hook tool, whether or not it makes sense
[14:06] <fwereade> )
[14:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: we can just ignore it i suppose, mostly
[14:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I think so
[14:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but tyvm, good catch
[14:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: np
[14:08] <fwereade> rogpeppe, do yu have the bug number handy? I can jot in an explanation
[14:09] <rogpeppe> fwereade: sorry, i hadn't yet made a bug - i wanted to replicate it first
[14:09] <fwereade> rogpeppe, np -- then just note that we should add it for everything
[14:09] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yea
[14:09] <rogpeppe> h
[14:09] <fwereade> rogpeppe, (every hook tool that is)
[14:11] <rogpeppe> fwereade: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1129130
[14:11] <_mup_> Bug #1129130: all hook tools should support --format <juju-core:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1129130 >
[14:11] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cool, tyvm
[14:55] <hazmat> bigjools, thanks for that mongo ppa, btw.
[15:10] <dimitern> fwereade: ping
[15:11] <mgz> thanks for the review hazmat
[15:13] <hazmat> mgz, np
[15:17] <mgz> hazmat: also, missed the review on the last change landed on lp:juju, have left a comment there now
[15:18] <hazmat> ack
[15:19] <mgz> the design for that changed too many times, and ended up in a confused state...
[15:20] <hazmat> mgz, r597 was pure breakage it appears
[15:21] <hazmat> mgz, the value returned by constraints convert is used for comparison and validation, the tests weren't previously getting to a real comparison because the constraints lacked series
[15:21] <mgz> the issue is maas needs the original string, not something that juju constraints have mangled
[15:21] <hazmat> mgz, folks using it in practice would hit the issue that the string was being returned but the compare method was issubset
[15:22] <mgz> the previous bug was from passing str(set(['tag-a', 'tag-b'])) which maas didn't understand because it doesn't parse python sets
[15:22] <mgz> so, that's fixable(ish) elsewhere, I just wonder if we've regressed the other bug...
[15:22] <hazmat> mgz, hmm.. the original string is preserved and serialized, noted thoug
[15:22] <hazmat> mgz, yeah.. not having a maas instance to test against makes this a bit of wackamole
[15:23] <mgz> provided the convert method is only used for juju, and not in the api call, I think we're fine
[15:23] <mgz> but I can't remember what exactly is the case there...
[15:24] <hazmat> mgz, the convert  call is also used against __getitem__ implicitly so the constraint acquisition for sending to maas may indeed have issue
[15:24] <hazmat> checking
[15:24] <mgz> uses constraints.get... which I have a nasty feeling does convert
[15:26] <mgz> argh, and the maas client tests use dicts not real constraint objects because those are a pain to construst outside of a provider context
[15:26] <hazmat> not clear that it does
[15:26] <hazmat> yeah..
[15:27] <hazmat> mgz, i'll have a look and try to do a proper constraints test with that api
[15:38] <hazmat> mgz, thanks
[16:11] <hazmat> mgz, digging through the tags stuff last  week, i did run into a concern of  tags that where valid at the time of service definition that are no longer valid cause issues
[16:12] <mgz> yeah, it's troublesome
[16:14] <mgz> this is generally true for non-trivial constraints, just because it once resolved to something sane, doesn't mean it always will
[16:14] <mgz> so the provisioner needs to handle having a constraint that fails
[16:14] <mgz> rather than just going into a retry loop as it does at present...
[16:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you'll like this one. noisy but trivial: https://codereview.appspot.com/7327050
[16:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe, w00t!
[16:45] <rogpeppe> fwereade: :-)
[16:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm going to unexport state.NotFoundError and export state.NotFoundf
[16:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: because i want to be able to create a not-found error for testing purposes
[16:46] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and there's no point really in exporting the type when we've got IsNotFound
[16:47] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, as long as we have api.IsNotFound I'm not bothered by the precise gubbins
[16:47] <TheRealMue> fwereade: Just for info, I put the backend branch into work in progress again. I discovered a missing capability during the storage testing.
[16:47] <rogpeppe> fwereade: cool
[16:47] <fwereade> TheRealMue, ah, thanks
[16:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm leaning towards something a bit more general actually: api.ErrCode(err) == api.CodeNotFound
[16:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: although we could have IsNotFound as a short cut for that
[16:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sgtm
[16:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, clear and close enough ;)
[17:15] <rogpeppe> hmm, typing this was not a good idea:
[17:15] <rogpeppe> bzr switch  lp:~rogpeppe/juju-core/221-instanceid-bool
[17:16] <rogpeppe> now: how to get myself out of it!
[17:23] <mgz> heh
[17:23] <mgz> what was the location before? just a plain branch, or something fancier?
[17:25] <mgz> rogpeppe: what do `bzr info` and `bzr branches` say?
[17:25] <rogpeppe> mgz: it's ok, i've fixed it
[17:25] <rogpeppe> mgz: i just edited the "location" file
[17:26] <rogpeppe> mgz: i was using cobzr, so the location before was a file: branch
[17:26] <mgz> ..that's okay for checkouts, if you also have sane tree state, switching back to the previous location is safer
[17:27] <rogpeppe> mgz: i couldn't use "cobzr switch" because it complained at me
[17:28] <mgz> plain bzr switch, with the magic cobzr location, would work (with --force at least), but that does mean you need to know how cobzr maps names
[17:28] <rogpeppe> mgz: ah, i didn't know that plain bzr had a "switch" command
[18:37] <rogpeppe> here's a dilemma: is it ethical to ask the company to pay 400 quid more for a flight so that i can get 4 hours sleep rather than none... ?
[19:03] <rogpeppe> right, time to stop, see y'all tomorrow
[22:29] <thumper> poos
[22:29] <thumper> davecheney: ping
[22:30] <davecheney> thumper: ack
[22:30] <thumper> davecheney: I have a slight problem
[22:30] <davecheney> shoot
[22:30] <thumper> I've managed to cut out a lot of code duplication
[22:30] <thumper> with one small problem
[22:31] <thumper> in all cases we want to parse the command line flags with "allowIntersperse=true"
[22:31] <thumper> except for the case of a supercommand
[22:31] <thumper> the code is cmd.Main
[22:31]  * davecheney looks
[22:31] <thumper> and I want to say "if this Command is a SuperCommand, then use false, otherwise use true"
[22:32] <thumper> Command is an interface and SuperCommand just a struct
[22:32] <thumper> what is the best way to ask
[22:32] <thumper> davecheney: the parsing used to be in the Init methods of *every* command
[22:32] <thumper> I'm wanting to remove that duplication
[22:32] <davecheney> +1 to that
[22:32] <davecheney> thumper: try a type switch
[22:32] <thumper> the code is nice and simple
[22:32] <thumper> davecheney: got an example?
[22:33] <davecheney> c is of type cmd.Command
[22:33] <davecheney> switch c := c.(type) {
[22:33] <davecheney> case *cmd.SuperCommand: // guess
[22:33] <davecheney>  // do something
[22:33] <davecheney> default:
[22:33] <thumper> hmm... lemmie test
[22:33] <davecheney>  // you are something else that conforms to cmd.Command
[22:33] <davecheney> }
[22:35] <thumper> sweet
[22:35] <thumper> works in my small test prog
[22:35] <thumper> will test in main code
[22:43] <thumper> davecheney: I think I have it now, but I have to go collect daughter for lunch
[22:43] <thumper> back online after lunch
[22:46] <davecheney> thumper: no worries, i have to pop to the shops for breakfast stuffs
[23:13] <bigjools> hazmat: the pleasure was all mine, believe me :)


[23:35] <arraybolt3> Is there an officially approved way to mass-download a bunch of IRC logs over multiple days? I have a script that works (loops over days, months, and years, downloading the IRC logs for the channel in question as it goes), but it makes HTTP requests one after another in rapid succession, and I'm worried that my IP will get banned trying to do that.
[23:36] <arraybolt3> (I'm trying to pull all the logs for #ubuntu over 2022 and 2023 in order to study them.)
[23:51] <el> you should be able to just wget's -m
[23:51] <el> just use*
[23:52] <el> i've done it before and not got banned so i'll be surprised if you do
[23:52] <arraybolt3> oh grief, that's quite a bit more intensive than what I was trying :P
[23:52] <arraybolt3> then it'll probably be fine
[23:54] <el> but to answer your actual question, i don't know if there's an "official" way at all
[23:54] <el> that implies more organization and forethought than that part of the canonical infra has ever had.
[23:54] <arraybolt3> lol, makes sense
[23:54] <el> (it's not mission critical by any sense)


[04:20] <seandpa> hi
[04:23] <seandpa> im new to using ubuntu so looking for general advice, anyone able to help?
[07:08] <ducasse> good morning all
[08:26] <lordievader> Good morning
[08:26] <ducasse> \o lordievader - happy holiday season to you!
[08:36] <lordievader> ducasse: Happy holidays to you too
[08:36] <ducasse> lordievader: have you enjoyed yours so far? got a lot of good food? :)
[08:37] <lordievader> Yeah, more than enough good food :D
[08:37] <lordievader> ducasse: You too, I suppose?
[08:37] <ducasse> yep, and there's still turkey in store for NYE :)
[08:38] <lordievader> Nice
[08:39] <ducasse> you're not familiar with exim, by any chance?
[08:39] <lordievader> Nope
[08:40] <lordievader> I stay away from email stuff.
[08:40] <ducasse> nvm, i'll just keep reading the docs. already asked in #exim, but it's quiet.
[11:06] <BluesKaj> Hi all


[01:55] <kirkland> so unity --reset is deprecated as is ctrl-alt-backspace;  so how do I unfsck unity when it's fscked?
[06:44] <Mirv> is anyone else seeing what camako is seeing at https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/landing-017/+packages - that the publisher run(s) seems broken?
[06:44] <pitti> Good morning
[06:46] <pitti> tedg, didrocks: FTR, sessions are running in a cgroup writable (i. e. "subgroupable") to the user, so in principle session upstart or UAL or whatever could do this by itself
[06:46] <pitti> once we move the session to systemd-user as well, this will be moot of course
[06:46] <didrocks> good morning pitti!
[06:47] <Mirv> good morning pitti, didrocks
[06:47] <pitti> hey didrocks, hello Mirv
[06:47] <didrocks> hey Mirv!
[06:50] <pitti> didrocks, tedg: btw, in principle cgmangager does run under systemd, they are just potentially clashing by doing things differently
[06:50] <pitti> but we'll need it for the "fake" cgroup fs for session LXC in any case
[06:51] <didrocks> ah, so it's not an orthogonal discussion
[07:20] <pitti> Riddell: FYI, yesterday's KDE uploads are mostly stuck on uninstallability on i386: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
[07:20] <pitti> (email notifications still don't work, arhg)
[07:21] <pitti> Riddell: perhaps related to the depwait of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plasma-framework/5.6.0-0ubuntu1
[07:55] <pitti> Riddell: ah, it got retried three times yesterday, but now it works again, so I guess some archive admin did whatever was necessary
[07:57] <sitter> wgrant, cjwatson: as observed by Mirv, launchpad publisher seems to have severe problems .... e.g. https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ci/+archive/ubuntu/unstable/+sourcepub/4653416/+listing-archive-extra <= built 7 hours ago, still pending publication
[08:03] <dholbach> good morning
[08:04]  * Mirv filed RT ticket about publisher
[08:16] <wgrant> Looking.
[08:18] <seb128> hey there
[08:18] <seb128> is anybody else having issue booting with yesterday's kernel update?
[08:19] <seb128> I see the plymouth logo and screen empty screen
[08:19] <seb128> boots fine if use recovery or boot an old kernel
[08:19] <seb128> that's on a dell e6410 i5 with intel video
[08:20] <pitti> I haven't rebooted yet after dist-upgrade, will try
[08:43] <stevenm> Hey anyone about?  I'm trying to figure out a bug with the packaging of libqt5core5
[08:45] <seb128> apw, ^ do you know about my kernel issue maybe?
[09:19] <Mirv> I seem to be running the latest kernel, no problems. i5-2557m era machine.
[10:57] <cjwatson> sitter: That's published now.
[11:22] <Laney> Need help analysing this: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/vivid-adt-floodlight/lastBuild/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/console
[11:22] <Laney> The problem is that the java alternates aren't in place when the floodlight job is started
[11:23] <Laney> But AFAICS they should be, because floodlight Depends: default-jre-headless, which Depends: openjdk-7-jre-headless, but that is configured after default-jre-headless is, as you can see in the log.
[11:26] <svenx> starting around Trusty, i386 is not added as a multiarch on amd64 systems by default. it definitely was on Precise. What's the rationale, if any?
[11:28] <cjwatson> svenx: It's still supposed to be enabled.  Perhaps you aren't installing via a standard method?
[11:28] <svenx> cjwatson: i'm using debootstrap, indeed
[11:29] <svenx> perhaps the mechanism to enable it was moved
[11:29] <svenx> for example if the package 'multiarch-support' made the modifications before, but not any longer
[11:29] <cjwatson> No.
[11:29] <cjwatson> dpkg used to force it in a different way.
[11:29] <svenx> aha
[11:29] <cjwatson> But the whole multiarch config mechanism changed in precise.
[11:30] <cjwatson>         if dpkg --compare-versions "$2" lt <IP_ADDRESS>ubuntu4; then
[11:30] <cjwatson>             new_installs_multiarch
[11:30] <cjwatson>         fi
[11:30] <svenx> this could explain it.
[11:30] <cjwatson> infinity: ^- I suspect this doesn't work right with debootstrap, perhaps, because it's extracted the first time through and the status file faked up.  I think.
[11:30] <cjwatson> Anyway, debootstrapped installs aren't guaranteed to have the fully standard config in all ways.
[11:31] <cjwatson> s/changed in precise/changed in quantal/ above
[11:31] <svenx> that's okay. i was merely digging into the details to figure out the difference in behaviour, so i can document it in the configuration for my FAI-based installer
[11:32] <svenx> thanks for the quick pointer
[11:32] <cjwatson> No problem.  I think this is probably a slight bug.
[12:07] <Laney> well then
[12:07] <Laney> Seems to be a bug in dpkg
[12:35] <syockit> Referring to http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/security-and-stable-release-updates.html#stable-release-updates, it says that "We also allow updates … such as a severe regression … or a bug which could cause data loss."
[12:38] <syockit> Does this mean paper cuts like LP #1322925 are likely to not be accepted for an "updates" channel release?
[12:48] <rbasak> syockit: given how many are affected by the bug, an SRU for that may be reasonable. I can't speak for the SRU team though.
[12:48] <rbasak> It also depends on the fix, since that affects regression risk.
[12:49] <rbasak> syockit: I wouldn't rule it out for an SRU, anyway.
[12:49] <rbasak> syockit: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates if you haven't read that page.
[12:54] <syockit> rbasak: I haven't. Thanks for the link!
[12:55] <syockit> What's the channel for SRU discussion?
[12:56] <rbasak> syockit: here and #ubuntu-release are both appropriate.
[14:05] <pitti> stgraber: wrt. "bond/vlan/bridges interfaces do not work because they're fully virtual and do not have udev events" -- do you have some details about those?
[14:05] <pitti> stgraber: we call ifup -a, so I assume it's more complicated than just putting those into /etc/network/interfaces
[16:30] <pitti> infinity, smoser: does wolfe need to be powered back on after the move or so? allegedly IPs didn't change
[16:31] <smoser> let me chekc
[16:33] <aquarius> stgraber, ping if you're around about unprivileged lxc failing to attach
[16:34] <smoser> pitti, i think you're up now
[16:34] <stgraber> aquarius: hi. I'm around though mostly stuck in meetings today. What kernel, LXC and what kind of error are you getting?
[16:35] <pitti> smoser: yay, all except wolfe-06
[16:36] <smoser> wolfe-06 thinks its up
[16:37] <aquarius> stgraber, Ubuntu 14.04 amd64 3.13.0-43-generic. lxc-start works and gives a login prompt, but I can't log in because I've set no user. lxc-attach fails with: lxc_container: call to cgmanager_move_pid_abs_sync failed: invalid request  // lxc_container: Failed to enter group /aquarius/rnr  //  lxc_container: error communicating with child process
[16:37] <aquarius> stgraber, lxc-start --version says 1.0.6.
[16:37] <pitti> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
[16:38] <pitti> smoser: ^ hmm, no luck here
[16:38] <smoser> rebooted him
[16:40] <pitti> smoser: thanks for prodding, works now!
[16:40] <rbasak> pitti: is it Testsuite: autopkgtest now? No XS- any more?
[16:40] <smoser> i had fat-fingered' the bringup of 07
[16:40] <pitti> rbasak: right; XS- still works of course, but it's an official field
[16:40] <smoser> and that resulted in 06's tun device getting whacked
[16:41] <pitti> rbasak: moreover, you don't need to explicitly set it at all
[16:41] <pitti> rbasak: if there's a debian/tests/control, dpkg-source will add it automatically
[16:41] <rbasak> pitti: great, thanks. So is that best practice now? Not setting it at all?
[16:41] <rbasak> pitti: what about backports to Trusty?
[16:42] <rbasak> I'm still using dpkg-source on Trusty, so I guess I'll leave it XS- for now.
[16:44] <rbasak> pitti: one more question. I'm writing a test that needs "sudo" to work. So not quite needs-root, but almost. Will this work in the current environment (Ubuntu-only)? If not, I presume I need to write a wrapper and use needs-root?
[16:44] <rbasak> pitti: this is isolation-machine as it will create LXC containers.
[16:46] <stgraber> aquarius: hmm, sounds like a bug that we had a while back but I thought hallyn resolved that
[16:48] <hallyn> aquarius: what is /proc/self/cgroup before you do lxc-attach?
[16:48] <hallyn> say, is there a way to add comments to reports on errors.ubuntu.com?
[16:49] <aquarius> hallyn, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9693666/ -- it did at one point not have my username in it but I fixed that after reading a github issue report
[16:49] <hallyn> (https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/9d8b1bc865eba0604b89ca1f7a24f0a1a0186290 should be fixed in 0.34)
[16:49] <didrocks> jpds: hey, any reason apart from "nobody got the time for this" for strongswan to not having been merged with debian and moved to 5.2.1? I see we diverged a long time ago from debian (dec 2013) and I was thinking merging back to bring the systemd service as part of this
[16:50] <pitti> rbasak: ah, for backports you have to use XS-* still, if you actually care for having the tag there
[16:50] <pitti> rbasak: back in 30 mins, sorry
[16:50] <hallyn> aquarius: you did an unprivileged container, or privileged?  Can you pastebin the full set of commands?
[16:50] <stgraber> aquarius: how are you logging into that system? cgmanager combined with systemd-logind on 14.04 should set everything up for you
[16:51] <hallyn> stgraber: yes, but in 14.04 you have to restart systemd-logind after installing cgmanager and the nlog back in
[16:51] <stgraber> aquarius: and if you just installed LXC, you need to completely logout and login again (or better, reboot) to have it properly setup
[16:51] <stgraber> hallyn: right, was getting there :)
[16:51] <aquarius> hallyn, unprivileged container. stgraber, erm, I don't understand the question about how I log in; it's a desktop Ubuntu machine so I log in with lightdm, presumavly.
[16:51] <hallyn> stgraber: :)
[16:51] <aquarius> Oh! I have to log out and in?
[16:51] <aquarius> right, that'll be the problem then :)
[16:51] <stgraber> if you just installed LXC, reboot and try again, that should make systemd-logind less stupid
[16:52] <hallyn> i cringe at 'reboot' :)
[16:52] <aquarius> right, fantastic, I'll do that next time I don't have anything I need open :)
[16:52] <hallyn> aquarius: you can do it manually,
[16:52] <hallyn> 'sudo restart systemd-logind', then ssh localhost and work from the ssh shell
[16:53] <stgraber> hallyn: yeah, I don't like it either but that's what I put in my blog posts because well, that's foolproof :)
[16:53] <hallyn> true
[16:53] <aquarius> hallyn, restarted systemd-logind; sshed localhost; lxc-attach -n rnr; same error that I got before
[16:54] <jpds> didrocks: Mostly time, and I'm still thinking about how all the plugins should be handled in future.
[16:55] <hallyn> aquarius: is /proc/self/cgroup still showing / for most controllers?
[16:55] <aquarius> hallyn, nope; it now has /user/1000.user/1.session for all of them
[16:56] <jpds> didrocks: I play to revamp it all soon.
[16:56] <didrocks> jpds: do we have a huge diff? Maybe I should just try to insert 5.2.0-2 for not diverging on the system service if you think it's safer (I'm not really sure how to test it)
[16:56] <jpds> didrocks: Huge diff.
[16:56] <didrocks> jpds: ah ok, so better for me to only stick in 5.2.0-2 meanwhile
[16:56] <didrocks> thanks for your feedback, doing that!
[16:59] <hallyn> aquarius: and you stopped and restarted the container?
[17:00] <aquarius> hallyn, I hadn't, hang on
[17:00] <aquarius> ahaha!
[17:01] <aquarius> I have to start it in the ssh session. And now it works. hallyn, you rock.
[17:01] <aquarius> I'll reboot at some point.
[17:01] <aquarius> superb.
[17:02] <hallyn> aquarius: great.  wish that hadn't been necessary, but later releases do fix it (or at least aresupposed to) - ttyl
[17:08] <rbasak> stgraber, hallyn: lxc-templates only recommends cloud-image-utils, so the ubuntu-cloud template doesn't work out of the box with --no-install-recommends. Do you consider this expected behaviour, or should it be a hard dependency?
[17:08] <rbasak> (if it's expected, then I need juju-local to depend on cloud-image-utils I guess)
[17:09] <stgraber> rbasak: looking at the other Recommends, I think that's expected and fine, assuming that the template in question gives you a clear error message in that case
[17:09] <hallyn> yeah, that's basically what '--no-install-recommends' means...
[17:10] <rbasak> stgraber: the error tells me that ubuntu-cloudimg-query doesn't exist, which was good enough for me. OK - I'll add it to juju-local - thanks.
[17:10] <hallyn> and yeah if error msg isn't clear then we need to fix that
[17:11] <hallyn> ok
[17:17] <infinity> cjwatson: I'd be inclined to consider that a bug in how debootstrap works if it can't guarantee that maintscript snippets with a null comparison don't trigger.
[17:18] <infinity> cjwatson: But maybe it's a bug for essential packages to have such a condition.  Could go either way.
[17:19] <cjwatson> Hard to say
[17:20] <infinity> cjwatson: Although, there's got to be more to this than just debootatrap sucking.
[17:20] <infinity> cjwatson: Cause debootstrap is how we install our livefses, and they're configured right.
[17:21] <infinity> cjwatson: Unless they really aren't, and ubiquity/d-i are fixing it.
[17:21]  * infinity grabs an ISO.
[17:24] <pitti> rbasak: if you only care about our ubuntu CI ones, they can use (passwordless) sudo
[17:25] <pitti> rbasak: it would be nice if the test would skip itself if "sudo -n true" fails, instead of hanging forever
[17:25] <pitti> rbasak: I mean images run on the standard adt-release-arch-cloud.img QEMU ones
[17:29] <rbasak> pitti: OK, thanks. I can test with "sudo -n true" easily enough. Is there an exit status code for a test skip?
[17:31] <pitti> rbasak: no, just echo an appropriate message and exit 0
[17:31] <pitti> rbasak: tests skipped due to unsatisfiable restrictions have a particular code, but that's one level down; once your test runs, it must succeed
[17:32] <pitti> rbasak: it's not that important anyway, mostly for manual runs on arbitrary targets
[17:32] <pitti> rbasak: in our CI, QEMU should work and LXC (armhf, ppc64el) will skip the test due to isolation-machine
[17:34] <rbasak> pitti: I don't like to exit 0 here. Then if I've made a mistake, my problem will silently succeed. Can I exit 1 instead?
[17:35] <pitti> rbasak: sure; cf. the above "not that important'
[17:35] <rbasak> OK
[17:35] <rbasak> Thanks for your help.
[17:35] <pitti> rbasak: just print something sensible like "this test needs passwordless sudo to be available"
[17:35] <pitti> ?
[17:35] <rbasak> ack
[17:35] <pitti> rbasak: ok, great
[17:41] <cjwatson> infinity: apt-setup fixes it
[17:41] <cjwatson> infinity: (and should continue to do so, since it has configuration knobs for this)
[17:41] <infinity> cjwatson: Indeed, `dpkg --print-foreign-architectures` in a trusty squashfs returns nothing.
[17:41] <infinity> cjwatson: I wonder how noboy noticed or cared before.
[17:41] <infinity> nobody, too.
[17:43] <infinity> cjwatson: Given that we no longer care about that upgrade path, I wonder if it wouldn't be best to just remove that block entirely from our dpkg delta now, and say (rightly, IMO) that setting up extra arches is up to the installer.
[17:44] <infinity> cjwatson: All our installers must DTRT here anyway, since it's obvious that debootstrap alone doesn't. :P
[17:59] <cjwatson> infinity: Yeah, I don't mind hugely
[18:06] <staylor> Wanted to clarify that if I follow the method defined at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/GitKernelBuild for generating kernel deb packages that these will work fine for distribution using apt-get for various boards?
[18:22] <infinity> cjwatson: Excellent.  Always good to have concensus from Launchpad people.
[18:22] <infinity> cjwatson: PS: traitor.
[18:29] <infinity> staylor: Should do, just remember to also distribute the source packages that match, for legal reasons.
[18:30] <infinity> staylor: Also, if you're not altering the upstream source, but rather just adding CONFIG options to enable new boards for the -generic kernel, it might be nice to file bugs to get that fixed in the Ubuntu kernel, rather than distributing your own fork.
[18:38] <staylor> infinity: it's a separate fork from what's in Ubuntu, basically our fork of the Freescale fork for i.MX6 ARM support.  A bit of a mess thanks to Freescale ;-)
[18:39] <staylor> infinity: so what I'm hoping to do is distribute our kernel deb packages in a way that most closely resembles the way Ubuntu does it, linux-image, linux-headers, etc, along with modules and of course the source package.
[18:39] <infinity> staylor: Hrm.  Kay.  The Ubuntu kernel is known to work on at least some i.MX6 devices, so I'd be curious what we (and upstream) are missing.
[18:40] <staylor> infinity: though the Ubuntu kernel works on i.MX6 to get the GPU binary blob drivers working correctly we need to use the Freescale kernel unfortunately.
[18:40] <infinity> staylor: Oh, right.  Yay blobs. :(
[18:41] <infinity> staylor: In that case, I would make sure that your forked kernel package is also a different flavour, since you might be maintaining it for a while and don't want upgrade hassles.
[18:42] <infinity> staylor: ie: instead of linux-image-generic, it should be linux-image-imx6-nonfree or something, so it's (a) obvious what it's for, and (b) won't confuse apt and users if we release a newer version of -generic that threatens to upgrade.
[18:42] <staylor> infinity: yes, I think that's the part that I'm missing as I'm not really clear on these details.  Ubuntu support is newer to us we've in the past just used very specific "distros" and yocto.
[18:42] <infinity> staylor: Not sure how well the kernel team has out-of-tree flavours documented, but if you ask apw nicely, he can talk you through it.
[18:43] <infinity> apw: ^--- If you're feeling helpful.
[18:43] <staylor> infinity: so I could define say linux-image-companyname-imx6 for example?
[18:43] <infinity> staylor: Yeah.
[18:44] <infinity> staylor: Like in trusty, you'll see that we have -generic and -generic-lpae from the mainline "linux" source, but we also have -keystone from an out-of-tree build, for a specific system that isn't entirely upstreamed.
[18:44] <infinity> staylor: Ideally, you'd want to maintain your stuff the same way that keystone kernel is.
[18:45] <staylor> infinity: yeah, that's sort of what I was originally thinking but pulling the apt-source of the kernel packages seems to be very different from other "standard" packages so I'm curious the correct way to build my own effectively.
[18:47] <apw> staylor, yeah waht keystone or lowlatency are doing are pretty good delta kernels which can be soimply rebased on to each release the main kernel takes
[18:47] <apw> rather than trying to understand the packaging to much, looking at the debdiff from the main kernel to one of those
[18:47] <infinity> staylor: To be fair, for one-off builds, pretty much anything works, but if you want to actually rebase with our kernel updates and keep your kernel maintainable and supportable in some fashion, doing it the way keystone is done will help you a lot.
[18:48] <apw> concur
[18:48] <apw> staylor, feel free to bring questions to #ubuntu-kernel
[18:49] <staylor> alright thanks I'll take a look at that, we'll be tracking Freescale's linux-imx git going forward with this package as well as our additional patches for drivers specific to this processor so we'd be maintaining it (as we do today for our yocto based BSP).
[18:49] <cjwatson> infinity: you're welcome ;-)
[19:26] <bdmurray> tkamppeter: the fix for bug 1400232 was included in your upload to Utopic, but not to Trusty. Was this an accident?
[19:30] <bdmurray> tjaalton: could you respond to the comment in bug 1401788 regarding the SRU of xserver-xorg-video-intel?
[19:42] <tjaalton> bdmurray: hmm yeah I forgot to add the header before holidays..
[19:43] <tjaalton> I'll add it tomorrow
[19:43] <bdmurray> tjaalton: alright, thanks
[20:16] <tkamppeter> bdmurray, seems that I have simply forgotten it in the package uploaded to trusty-proposed.  Can you reject the uploaded package and I will upload a new one with the patch added. Thanks.
[20:19] <bdmurray> tkamppeter: rejected, let me know when the new one is ready for review.
[20:42] <tkamppeter> bdmurray, new package uploaded.
[21:47] <chiluk> lamont, I'm looking at bug 583216 and noticed that there wasn't a track for trusty... do you intend to upload the fix into trusty as well?
[21:53] <lamont> chiluk: I might be talked into that
[21:54] <lamont> chiluk: tell you what.  I'll upload it to trusty-proposed, you deal with the SRU?
[21:57] <chiluk> lamont the SRU template is already kinda -filled out.
[21:57] <chiluk> I can clean it up though.
[21:57] <chiluk> and twist arges' arm to push the SRU button.
[21:59] <lamont> I guess this means I'll have to do the uploads this weekend, he/
[21:59] <lamont> eh?
[22:05] <chiluk> lamont yeah probably.
[22:05] <chiluk> lamont if you don't have time I can push it through the process