[21:42] <skid55> Hi. I have installed Ubuntu Budgie 17.10. I have a problem with saving documents in Libreoffice and the editor. They use the same save dialog box. When this box pops up it does not have anywhere where I can type the desired filename. The only way I can name a document is by closing it > "save lose cancel" choose save and its save with the default name,  "untitled doc 1" or similar. then I can rename it in files. Whats going on?
[21:46] <skid55> Ok. I have solved it but its not ideal. I had the top budgie panel set to "intelligent hide" and when its set to this it interferes with the top of the save dialog box obliterating the place where you type a file name.
[21:46] <fossfreedom_> skid55, that's very odd - top of the save dialog is "cancel - name - edit field - search and save"
[21:46] <skid55> Have a look at my last comment. Thanks
[21:47] <fossfreedom_> what resolution are you running with ?
[21:49] <skid55> Yes "automatic" and "never" hide the top panel are ok but the problem is with "intelligent" hiding. Maybe unintelligent?! Resolution 1440x900 (default)
[21:50] <fossfreedom_> is the save dialog not centered on the screen ?
[21:52] <skid55> It takes up most of the screen, right up to the top and nearly to the bottom, slightly shifted to the right of centre
[21:54] <fossfreedom_> you can shrink the save dialog height - that should be remembered between sessions - that should help
[21:56] <skid55> Many thanks, doing that and using "automatic" top panel hiding makes me happy.
[21:57] <fossfreedom_> :)


[02:59] <mneptok> \o/
[02:59] <pleia2> :)
[03:00] <Arc> yo
[03:00] <pleia2> ok folks - Americas Council meeting!
[03:00]  * mneptok tickles pleia2 mercilessly
[03:00] <pleia2> meep!
[03:01] <mneptok> it's "mnep."
[03:01] <pleia2> :P
[03:01] <mneptok> but whatever.
[03:01] <pleia2> vorian? nixternal?
[03:02] <pleia2> oh good :)
[03:02] <Technoviking> sorry I'm late
[03:02] <pleia2> np, still waiting for everyone
[03:02] <Technoviking> just got home
[03:02] <mneptok> hail Technoviking!
[03:03]  * mneptok points skyward
[03:03] <mneptok> (hi Mike) :)
[03:03]  * Technoviking points
[03:03]  * Technoviking rave dances
[03:04]  * pleia2 goes to track down council
[03:05] <mneptok> pleia2: try waving some fake Intrepid beta .iso's around. that'll get their attention.
[03:05] <pleia2> haha
[03:05] <Technoviking> lets sic a jackalope om them
[03:05] <Technoviking> s/om/on
[03:06] <mneptok> i prefer "om." i like picturing Hare Krishna jackalopes.
[03:07] <mneptok> what a great potential band name.
[03:11] <pleia2> still searching, sorry folks
[03:16]  * mneptok whistles the "Jeopardy!" theme
[03:16] <Technoviking> woot!
[03:16] <cody-somerville> \o/
[03:16] <pleia2> yay!
[03:16] <pleia2> ok, one more
[03:16]  * mneptok switches to the "Twilight Zone" theme
[03:16] <pleia2> I think, we need 4 right?
[03:16] <vorian> hi
[03:17] <pleia2> yay!
[03:17] <vorian> just got home
[03:17] <pleia2> ok, lets start this thing :)
[03:17] <pleia2> Arc: you're up!
[03:17] <Arc> really?
[03:17] <Arc> ok
[03:17] <Technoviking> ya'rly
[03:18] <Arc> ... ok I'm at a loss of words :-P
[03:18] <Arc> how does this work?
[03:18] <pleia2> Arc: a blurb about yourself, with links to your wiki, launchpad, ed
[03:18] <pleia2> etc
[03:18] <Arc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArcRiley
[03:18] <Arc> https://launchpad.net/~arcriley
[03:19] <Arc> I've been doing Ubuntu promotion for a few years now, and have gotten pretty active with our LoCo
[03:19] <Arc> and I've been pretty impressed with what I've seen lately in how organized things are in the Ubuntu project
[03:19] <MagicFab> sorry to jump in- meeting agenda URL anyone ? can't seem tofind it, notlinked at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1631
[03:20] <pleia2> MagicFab: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[03:21] <cody-somerville> Arc, It seems like you've been very active in the Free Software world for close to a decade now. When did you first get involved with Ubuntu?
[03:21] <Arc> I first installed it in 2005 IIRC
[03:22] <Arc> I don't use it as my primary distro, I'm a Gentoo guy through and through, but maintain my own Ubuntu boxes and most of my consulting/community work is with Ubuntu
[03:23] <Arc> Gentoo isn't exactly the best way to spread free software :-)
[03:23] <cody-somerville> Okay. What do you feel has been your biggest contribution to Ubuntu to date? Would it be your consulting/community work?
[03:23] <cody-somerville> :]
[03:23] <Arc> well it'd likely be through the recycling project.  we flooded Ithaca, NY with Ubuntu boxes
[03:24] <Arc> we got to the point that when we tabled, a majority of people told us they already had that version, downloaded it, got it from a neighbor, etc
[03:25] <Arc> IFSA was spoken about at the 2007 FSF annual member meeting as a "model" for other cities, it's what inspired the FSF to promote local groups
[03:25] <pleia2> Arc: I see you're interested in taking your advocacy to libraries, are you at all involved with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuInLibraries ? or planning to be?
[03:25] <pleia2> the project is a bit quiet right now, but I think it could really benefit from your experience once you get going
[03:25] <Arc> yea, but embarrasingly I didn't know of that URL
[03:26] <Arc> we didn't succeed to get Ithaca's libraries to use Ubuntu because they feared loosing the Gates Foundation grants in the future
[03:26] <Arc> but NH libraries have shown an interest, and GNHLUG members have talked about the main limitation being shortage of geeks to work with them.  I've talked to a few librarians already
[03:27]  * cody-somerville nods.
[03:28] <cody-somerville> Arc, did you bring any advocates with you today?
[03:28] <Arc> what constitutes an advocate?
[03:28] <Arc> an ubuntu member, or anyone in the community?
[03:29] <cody-somerville> Generally an ubuntu member but there isn't a rule or anything :]
[03:29] <pleia2> I can speak up for the hard work he's done with the NH LoCo over the past few months, working with the US mentors and LoCo council to get some issues straightened out, as well as his general attention to loco meetings and such
[03:30] <Arc> one sec having another LoCo member join
[03:30] <stevie> anyone here to cheer for Arc?
[03:30] <cody-somerville> Arc, would it be fair to say that your contributions have been more distribution agnostic, more targetted to FOSS in general?
[03:30] <Arc> over the last few years they've been very specific for Ubuntu
[03:31] <cody-somerville> Can you give a few more examples?
[03:32] <Arc> well Canonical was sending us several large boxes of CDs for a few releases in a row, and I took responsibility to make sure they got distributed
[03:33] <Arc> >1000 CDs took quite a bit of foot work to distribute, they sent the nice point of sale glossy distro boxes that I got the library to let us put there, boxes at the local colleges, local stores
[03:34] <cody-somerville> I imagine.
[03:34] <Arc> when I advertised my consulting services, I started putting "Ubuntu" instead of "Linux" since many people didn't even know they were running Linux and I was mostly unfamiliar with Fedora/etc at that point
[03:35] <Arc> and I likely spent 2-3X more time doing free help for people than paid
[03:35]  * cody-somerville nods.
[03:36] <cody-somerville> Arc, is your other loco team member joining?
[03:36] <Arc> yea nikkiana_lappy
[03:37] <cody-somerville> nikkiana_lappy, tell us about how great Arc is and specifically about his contributions :-)
[03:38] <Arc> well she wrote a testimonial too, if she's AFK
[03:39] <cody-somerville> Alrighty :-(
[03:39] <cody-somerville> We generally look for applicants to have a few people here at the meeting to cheer you on.
[03:40] <Arc> yea most of the people I work with don't IRC, so I got testimonials instead
[03:40] <Arc> Mitch for example runs IFSA at this point (I moved to NH last October)
[03:42] <cody-somerville> Arc, I think you're on the right track for Ubuntu membership but I'd like to see more ubuntu-specific activity for Ubuntu Members. I hear you've done some great work with your LoCo Team in the last few months and I'd like to see you keep that up. Your contributions to FOSS in general have certainly not gone unnoticed by me.
[03:43] <Arc> how much more specific is needed?
[03:44] <cody-somerville> I think your work with your LoCo Team is on the right track there - I'd like to see more of that over a sustained period of time. I think if you could bring some folks from your LoCo Team it would certainly help me see that.
[03:45] <Arc> does my involvement with other FOSS activities count against me rather than for me?
[03:45] <stevie> i agree with cody-somerville, i think you are off to a great start.  I would like to see you sustain your work for a while longer.
[03:45] <Technoviking> Arc: It counts for you for sure
[03:46]  * cody-somerville nods with Technoviking.
[03:46] <Technoviking> but we like to see a good ammount of work in the area of Ubuntu
[03:47] <cody-somerville> Arc, I think having some folks from your LoCo team here to cheer you on would make all the difference.
[03:47] <pleia2> I'm abstaining for now
[03:47] <Arc> so years of the recycling center, running Ubuntu-specific installfests, support, etc isn't enough?
[03:48] <cody-somerville> Arc, Its hard for us to distinguish those activities between generalist work in the FOSS community and the Ubuntu community.
[03:49] <cody-somerville> Arc, Ubuntu membership is to recognize Ubuntu community members and activity in the FOSS community in not the criteria we use to give that recognition.
[03:49] <Arc> so it'd be better if that had all been done under a LoCo banner rather than IFSA?
[03:49] <mneptok> Arc: don't hear a "no" when what's being said is "not *just* yet"   :)
[03:49] <Technoviking> You can come back at anytime
[03:49] <Arc> my concern in the "not just yet" is that I don't think in the next year I could substantially add to what I've already done
[03:50] <cody-somerville> Arc, As I said, I think having some people here to cheer you on would make all the difference.
[03:50] <mneptok> Arc: i don't think you need to add. just keep doing what you're doing, keep an Ubuntu focus to it, and get some other team members to vouch for you.
[03:50] <pleia2> Arc: I think making progress with getting the NH LoCo off the ground and doing events would be very helpful - would help clear up some of the confusion between your general foss work and Ubuntu work
[03:51]  * cody-somerville nods.
[03:51] <mneptok> Arc: SOftware Freedom Day is coming up. an Intrepid release party or installfest ...
[03:51] <Arc> I'm the "team leader" for SFD in Concord
[03:52] <Arc> we have a permit to table in front of the State House from 10am to 6pm, a conference pack from Canonical plus GNHLUG people doing more generic FOSS advocacy
[03:52] <mneptok> Arc: so there you go. use that day to distribute Ubuntu CDs and have some other team members let us know about it. that's the sort of thing that goes a long way.
[03:53] <Arc> hows this for Ubuntu-specific stuff; http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=AF&Date=20070625&Category=PHOTOGALLERIES03&ArtNo=706250801&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=3
[03:54] <Arc> the article that's from (I can't find it on the web) was on the front page the next day, to all of our shock.
[03:54] <cody-somerville> Nice :-]
[03:55] <cody-somerville> Anyhow, we need to move on to the next applicant now. Thanks for showing up Arc :]
[03:55] <Arc> thanks
[03:56] <pleia2> swe3tdave: are you here?
[03:56] <swe3tdave> yeap
[03:56] <pleia2> you're up :)
[03:57] <swe3tdave> ok.. ;)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DavidGiard
[03:57] <swe3tdave> https://launchpad.net/~swe3tdave
[03:57] <swe3tdave> Well, in december 2005, i started working on starting a team for French Canadian, the QuebecTeam, so i've been working on the web site mostly. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuebecTeam/WebAdminLog
[03:58] <swe3tdave> Since then i got ownership of the https://edge.launchpad.net/loco-drupal project and the https://edge.launchpad.net/~loco-drupal-dev team on launchpad i started contributing, all the work i do for the ubuntu-qc.org web site, to it.
[03:58] <swe3tdave> So i created a Drupal 6 theme for LoCoTeams, and i am in the process of expanding it to tools, by adding some modified module, maybe creating one or two from scratch in the futur. And in the far futur, probably a complete drupal tarball for LoCoTeams, ready to upload.
[03:59]  * MagicFab cheers for swe3tdave
[03:59]  * avoine too
[03:59] <pleia2> very impressive work swe3tdave :)
[03:59] <swe3tdave> thank you, ;)
[03:59] <pleia2> swe3tdave: future plans?
[03:59] <MagicFab> swe3tdave is an unstoppable workhorse
[03:59] <swe3tdave> lol
[03:59] <MagicFab> sometimes not very visible but always showing up when other go
[04:00] <pleia2> hehe
[04:01]  * mneptok cheers for *anyone* helping MagicFab with Ubuntu-QC!  ;)
[04:01] <swe3tdave> well, i would like to go to one the release party magicfab is organising in montreal... 200 geek on a bar.. it must be something, i dont really organise it.. but since i helped to start the team.. ;)
[04:02] <mneptok> swe3tdave: Software Freedom Day a Berri-UQAM!
[04:02] <cody-somerville> swe3tdave, so you got involved in 2005?
[04:02] <swe3tdave> for the futur, i guess right now i've been focusing on building planet ubuntu quebec.. ;)
[04:02] <swe3tdave> ubuntu-qc.org
[04:03] <swe3tdave> yep.. it started as a translation of the canadian team..
[04:03] <pleia2> very nice
[04:03] <swe3tdave> when i saw no one got interested, i started asking around what was wrong..
[04:04] <swe3tdave> then MagicFab, told me to start a quebecteam.. ;)
[04:04] <cody-somerville> swe3tdave, you can stop, we're ready to vote.
[04:04] <swe3tdave> and this is exactly what i did...
[04:04] <cody-somerville> +1 from me.
[04:04] <swe3tdave> ah ok.. ;)
[04:04] <pleia2> +1
[04:04] <Technoviking> +1
[04:05]  * cody-somerville cues the jeopardy music for stevie.
[04:05]  * mneptok whistles the "Jeopardy!" theme (on queue)
[04:05]  * Technoviking raves to the Jeopardy theme
[04:05] <cody-somerville> \o)
[04:06] <cody-somerville> (o/
[04:06]  * MagicFab kicks som salsa steps
[04:06] <swe3tdave> :)
[04:06] <MagicFab> errr - well you got the idea - congrats!
[04:06] <stevie> yes!
[04:07] <stevie> +1 form me too :)
[04:07] <swe3tdave> cool
[04:07] <Technoviking> lol
[04:07] <pleia2> congrats swe3tdave :)
[04:07] <cody-somerville> Everyone do the wave! - \o\ - (o\ - (o/
[04:07] <Technoviking> o
[04:07] <MagicFab> I almost got sucked into starting another loco team and all I got is this lousy T-Shirt .. oh.. wait.. no t-shirt for that here...
[04:07] <stevie> yay!
[04:08] <Technoviking> that is for tonight? got to get my son to bed
[04:08] <dthomasdigital> Hello
[04:08] <dthomasdigital> I was on the list
[04:08]  * mneptok points at dthomasdigital
[04:09] <pleia2> oops, didn't see you there
[04:09] <mneptok> pleia2: he's wearing camouflage Underoos
[04:09] <pleia2> too much of that going on
[04:10] <pleia2> dthomasdigital: go for it :)
[04:10] <dthomasdigital> Hello, I have been using Ubuntu for 3 years and I live, breath, sleep, blog, promote and preach Ubuntu. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dthomasdigital
[04:12] <dthomasdigital> The New Mexico LoCo has been a part of a few ambitious and successful projects, and I work hard to grow are membership.
[04:12] <pleia2> dthomasdigital: what was your proposed topic at Live?
[04:13] <dthomasdigital> It was open source applications in the enterprise.
[04:13]  * mneptok met dthomasdigital in Albuquerqie this weekend!
[04:13] <mneptok> *Albuquerque
[04:14] <dthomasdigital> details of that talk can be found here at HDI's 2008 conf http://www.thinkhdi.com/hdi2008/session.aspx?SessionID=1082
[04:14] <mneptok> he and some other LoCo team members were nice enough to share a dinner with me and let me know about what the NM LoCo is doing.
[04:15] <cody-somerville> mneptok, are you cheering for dthomasdigital?
[04:15] <dthomasdigital> I work for that State of New Mexico where 2 years ago there were no Ubuntu devices we now run 8 Ubuntu servers have 10 workstation running desktop ubuntu and all public kiosk run ubuntu
[04:15] <mneptok> dthomasdigital: i'm glad some of the issues that kept you away from LoCo work recently are now resolved. the team seems really anxious and happy to have you back, which really speaks well of your contributions to their efforts.
[04:16] <dthomasdigital> protonchris from our loco is here as well
[04:16] <mneptok> cody-somerville: i am. the NM LoCo team seems to have really benefitted from his contributions.
[04:16] <cody-somerville> +1 from me.
[04:16] <protonchris> dthomasdigital is an integral part of the NM LoCo.
[04:17] <mneptok> cody-somerville: *plus* he ate a meal with me and never threw a punch. i know you know the imprtance of that statement.
[04:17] <mneptok> ;)
[04:17] <pleia2> +1
[04:17]  * protonchris didn't punch mneptok .... at least not yet :)
[04:17] <pleia2> mneptok is mostly for hugging
[04:17] <mneptok> protonchris: you were on the other side of the table.
[04:18] <stevie> +1 :)
[04:18] <mneptok> Technoviking: now comes the time on "Sprockets" when we vote!
[04:18] <dthomasdigital> We have really worked hard and continue to make the New Mexico Loco really shine.
[04:19] <Technoviking> ya, +1 from me, now we dance
[04:19] <pleia2> woo, congrats dthomasdigital :)
[04:19]  * mneptok queues up the Kraftwerk!
[04:19] <dthomasdigital> very cool, thank you very much. I won't let you down.
[04:19] <mneptok> dthomasdigital: woot! conga-rats!
[04:20] <stevie> congrats dthomasdigital :)
[04:21] <dthomasdigital> Again thanks, Ubuntu is a great OS, and a great community.
[04:22] <Technoviking> congrats
[04:22] <Technoviking> night all
[04:22] <pleia2> mm, sleep now
[04:23] <mneptok> ooo! shiny button! *push*
[15:59] <calc> hi
[15:59] <TheMuso> Greetings folks.
[16:00] <evand> hi
[16:00] <ArneGoetje> hi
[16:00] <liw> hi. everyone please check your firewalls are up, I have a cold and I may sneeze during the meeting
[16:00] <davmor2> liw: that would be anti-virus then surely ;)
[16:00]  * slangasek waves
[16:01] <liw> davmor2, could be, I am not sure I can distinguish :)
[16:03] <james_w> hi all
[16:05] <cjwatson> hi, my apologies for being late today; I'm going to do the school run a bit differently next week to see if it works better
[16:06] <cjwatson> asac,bryce_,doko_: pin
[16:06] <cjwatson> g
[16:07] <asac> oh high
[16:07] <doko_> pon
[16:07] <doko_> g
[16:07] <asac> ;)
[16:07] <asac> oops ;)
[16:07] <asac> s/gh//
[16:07] <cjwatson> doko: sarky :)
[16:08] <cjwatson> also sorry I didn't send out an agenda, being in London yesterday threw me off a bit
[16:08] <cjwatson> however, we did get a chance to do a dry-run of the procedure for dealing with a compromised archive signing key
[16:08] <cjwatson> the good news is it almost works
[16:09] <cjwatson> we do have a couple of bits to iron out, though, and the procedure required rather too much thought on the fly
[16:10] <cjwatson> anyway, outstanding actions
[16:10] <cjwatson> Colin or Evan to review to see if the /etc/fstab change is an adequate solution for long term.
[16:11] <cjwatson> I've had a look at it; /etc/fstab really is a special case for ubiquity (it's the only file I can think of that's legitimately created before bulk file copying), so I think it's fair enough to handle it as such, although I'm going to make a small tweak to the actual implementation
[16:11] <cjwatson> I think that's enough for that action
[16:11] <cjwatson> Lars to find sponsor for system-cleaner
[16:11] <liw> mvo promised to upload, and cjwatson puploaded python-fstab, which system-cleaner requires
[16:12] <liw> waiting in the new queue for now
[16:12] <liw> should I poke someone about it?
[16:13] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration says that seb128 is the admin for the day
[16:14] <liw> I'll ask him
[16:14] <cjwatson> Evan to continue with usb-creator testing and write up MIR when ready
[16:15] <cjwatson> MIR is done, although still more polishing to do
[16:15] <evand> indeed
[16:15] <cjwatson> evand: worth throwing it open for ubuntu-devel to test at some point
[16:15] <cjwatson> ?
[16:15] <evand> cjwatson: yes, though perhaps not tonight.
[16:15] <evand> I'd like to see how the discussions with mpt go.
[16:16] <mvo> liw: yeah, sorry for not reviewing that yet
[16:16] <cjwatson> Colin to pass around idea of distro-activity
[16:16] <cjwatson> this doesn't really seem to have been very popular, I'm afraid, and some were vocally against the idea
[16:17] <asac> ack
[16:19] <cjwatson> so I think the recommendation is that anything in your activity report that is of wider interest you should post as a mailing list thread
[16:19] <cjwatson> I'll try to remember to encourage this
[16:20]  * TheMuso often finds that its easier to start a thread to get testing for something important etc.
[16:20] <cjwatson> evand: mpt> ack
[16:21]  * cjwatson does a quick pass over activity reports for agenda items
[16:21] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: thanks a lot for the new language packs
[16:21] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: sorry for the delay... had some trouble with the exports...
[16:22] <cjwatson> asac,james_w,doko,TheMuso: missing reports for you
[16:22] <asac> cjwatson: sorry, should be in your inbox now
[16:22] <TheMuso> cjwatson: You sure?
[16:22] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: yeah, I was tracking that; none of the delay was on your side as far as I can see
[16:22] <doko> sending now
[16:22] <cjwatson> TheMuso: whoops
[16:23] <asac> ArneGoetje: new lang packs? just intrepid?
[16:23] <cjwatson> TheMuso: I got confused by the different start date, sorry
[16:23] <TheMuso> cjwatson: hehe no problem.
[16:23] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: true. jtv is going over the import log to see if he can fix the remaining pieces
[16:23] <cjwatson> feature status (that we haven't already covered)
[16:24] <cjwatson> TheMuso: how is PA looking?
[16:24] <ArneGoetje> asac: just intrepid for now. hardy will follow soon.
[16:24] <james_w> cjwatson: I sent mine yesterday I thought
[16:25] <TheMuso> Well, PA is getting some rather good testing from packages in my PPA, with 0.9.12 being released in the last couple of days, which fixes some important issues that 0.9.11 raised. That along with some fixes from alsa-lib git, and people don't seem to be having too many problems, however one person still has an issue that has popped up since 0.9.11 that we have yet to track down.
[16:25] <TheMuso> Pavucontrol and paprefs also got new releases, so I uploaded packages for those as well. Paprefs is probably not as important, as its not tied to a particularly recent version of pulse.
[16:25] <james_w> cjwatson: I can forward it if you like
[16:25] <TheMuso> Pavucontrol however requires 0.9.11 to be usable, so I guess trying to use an earlier version may present problems.
[16:25] <cjwatson> james_w: ok, I'll check later, shout if there was anything in it that should be covered here
[16:26] <james_w> cjwatson: no agenda items, no
[16:26] <cjwatson> TheMuso: ok, are you liaising with upstream on things that come up?
[16:26] <cjwatson> (PA upstream has asked for more contact from us, in general)
[16:26] <TheMuso> There is also the final issue of gnome 2.24 using libcanberra, which gets the best functionality by using pulseaudio as a backend, which has to be 0.9.11 or greater. So at the moment, event sounds are broken.
[16:26]  * asac reconnected
[16:27] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Yes trying to do what I can with working with upstream to sort things out.
[16:27] <cjwatson> ok, thanks
[16:27] <cjwatson> Python 3
[16:28] <cjwatson> doko: I don't think anyone followed up to my last mail to distro-team about this. Can I suggest that we include this in universe and build the python3-* modules we need from separate source? As I understand it modules will generally not be source-compatible anyway.
[16:28] <cjwatson> that will avoid the security-support question for intrepid
[16:29] <doko> cjwatson: sure, I will do that.
[16:29] <cjwatson> ok, great
[16:29] <cjwatson> system-cleaner we covered
[16:29] <cjwatson> usb-creator we covered
[16:30] <cjwatson> calc: you said that you'd prepared openoffice.org3 packages, so confirm that this is just blocked on agreeing the Sun-branded images?
[16:31] <cjwatson> calc: if you don't hear back by Monday, please upload without the Sun branding and we can restore that later
[16:31] <calc> cjwatson: the build i did was without the changing of the extension but yes, it should just be a flip of a variable to add the 3 and its ready other than the sun branding
[16:31] <calc> i'll verify flipping the extension variable on works
[16:32] <doko> calc: where are these packages? the PPA still has the beta
[16:32] <calc> doko: see above haven't uploaded yet due to waiting on sun to approve the new images
[16:32] <cjwatson> you could upload to the PPA without the branding
[16:33] <calc> ok, i'll go ahead and do that then after switching the variable on it
[16:33] <cjwatson> ok, please do ASAP, thanks
[16:33] <doko> calc: please just upload to the PPA at least. it's not just the splash, there is other legal stuff
[16:33] <calc> that bit hasn't been tested in a while so i need to make sure it still works
[16:33] <cjwatson> the sooner we get build confirmation and stuff the better
[16:34] <cjwatson> xorg-options-editor
[16:34] <cjwatson> did that get reviewed and promoted?
[16:36] <cjwatson> bryce_: ^-
[16:37] <asac> hmm i cant find xorg-options-editor through apt-cache search
[16:38] <cjwatson> it's python-xkit and screen-resolution-extra, both of which are apparently in main now
[16:38] <asac> good
[16:39] <cjwatson> asac: reminder to write MIRs for libmbca and mobile-broadband-provider-info (I know you asked for a feature freeze exception, but ...)
[16:40] <asac> yes. ill try to do the in-depth review this week
[16:40] <cjwatson> and Evan addressed Wubi in his activity report
[16:41] <cjwatson> milestoned bugs for alpha-6: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1324
[16:42] <cjwatson> nothing for us there, though there are some on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1324
[16:43] <cjwatson> I'm confused by bug 267682 being Critical but not targeted to intrepid
[16:43] <cjwatson> please note that if you just attach a milestone to a bug, that's not release-critical, it's just to help your own organisation and workflow
[16:43] <cjwatson> if you want a bug to be on the release team's radar, then you need to target it to intrepid as well
[16:43] <bryce_> hi
[16:43] <asac> good. so i understood correctly.
[16:44] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting
[16:44] <bryce_> cjwatson: yes x-kit is in main, and the g-c-c changes are pushed
[16:45] <cjwatson> bryce_: thanks, great
[16:45] <cjwatson> asac: is bug 256054 not release-critical?
[16:45] <cjwatson> (it's High)
[16:45] <cjwatson> calc: do you regard the high-priority openoffice.org bugs as release-critical?
[16:46] <asac> cjwatson: it is release critical. but not for alpha-6.
[16:46] <cjwatson> asac: it should be nominated for intrepid, then
[16:46] <asac> ok done
[16:47] <calc> cjwatson: i milestone the bugs i want to make sure are fixed for the release
[16:47] <calc> cjwatson: if i don't know when they will be fixed for certain i generally make them for beta or final release
[16:47] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting -> "To indicate that a bug should be fixed prior to the final release, the bug should be nominated using the "nominate for release" option in Launchpad. Use of milestone targeting is not required except in cases where delivery of the bugfix is relevant to the success of the milestone release"
[16:48] <cjwatson> you can certainly use milestone targeting to indicate an "intention", as the next section down says
[16:48] <calc> ok
[16:49] <cjwatson> calc: anyway, no need to hash it out here, please review that page and make sure you're in line with what the release team is generally expecting people to do; that will let us work with you more effectively
[16:49] <calc> ok
[16:50] <bryce_> thanks for updating 267682; I'd marked it just so I wouldn't forget, but yes it's a release critical bug
[16:50] <cjwatson> bryce_: are you going to work on 267682 some more? it has no assignee at the moment, and it seems to need some detailed analysis
[16:50] <cjwatson> jinx
[16:50] <bryce_> ah, timo is taking it; I'll assign to him
[16:52] <cjwatson> bryce_: you said last week that 185311 was likely no longer to be relevant with the Java fix, but it's still on the RC list ...?
[16:52] <bryce_> the issue as I understand it is that evdev is getting confused about whether the keys are mouse or keyboard events
[16:52]  * cjwatson reads the tail-end of that bug
[16:53] <bryce_> cjwatson: apparently there's still a vocal minority with non-java proprietary apps that are affected by it
[16:54] <bryce_> cjwatson: I've talked with upstream and a real fix doesn't look likely to come any time soon
[16:56] <bryce_> cjwatson: I'm not entirely sure how to handle this; ripping out libxcb in hardy seems pretty drastic, but presumably there's no other way to fix things for random proprietary apps
[16:56] <cjwatson> I've followed up asking whether export LIBXCB_ALLOW_SLOPPY_LOCK=1 works
[16:57] <bryce_> ok, although actually I believe that's set as default now
[16:57] <cjwatson> hmm, yes
[16:57] <bryce_> yeah the detail I've gotten on the level of troubleshooting done has been a bit disappointing
[16:58] <bryce_> but lately some folks have posted test cases and such, which I think will make it easier
[16:58] <cjwatson> ok, we can't process it here, but I agree it still needs to be release-critical if only because it should end up on the release notes if we can't fix it
[16:59] <cjwatson> 251640 is still on my plate to do something about
[16:59] <cjwatson> as is 262451, although I think that's probably no longer release-critical since the ufw bug that triggered it has been fixed
[16:59] <cjwatson> and that's most of the >=high bugs on our list
[16:59] <cjwatson> sponsorship queue
[17:00] <cjwatson> this week I have done: minicom 111021 (bounced); cron 118168 (bounced); gtk-sharp2 254855 (uploaded, forwarded to Debian)
[17:00] <cjwatson> other uploaders?
[17:01] <asac> my queue size has been zero throughout the whole week
[17:01]  * TheMuso has processed accessibility stack updates that were pending for GNOME.
[17:01] <slangasek> I have linux-wlan-ng to close out today; otherwise my queue is empty
[17:01]  * evand has slipped on processing his queue
[17:01] <calc> my queue is empty or was when i looked yesterday
[17:02] <calc> yep empty
[17:03] <cjwatson> I'd just like to clarify that the new world order is that you won't get things assigned to you
[17:03] <cjwatson> so you will not necessarily have your own queue
[17:04] <cjwatson> we've asked for everyone to do an hour a week, which may well include going and looking for unassigned items on http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ and dealing with those
[17:04] <calc> oh ok
[17:04]  * calc had been wondering why nothing new got assigned to him
[17:04] <cjwatson> right, the problem with that was that if somebody missed it then they had a lock on it and nobody else would look at it
[17:05] <cjwatson> after a while, this accumulated into a big queue that wasn't getting processed
[17:05] <bryce_> I did some time on sponsor queue work yesterday
[17:06] <bryce_> here's a bookmarkable search to get the Ubuntu sponsor queue - http://tinyurl.com/63cfxt
[17:07] <cjwatson> I find http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ pretty good; is it missing something?
[17:08] <bryce_> well, it's good, although you can't sort/filter it down like in LP
[17:08] <dholbach> bryce_: I could add that, should be easy
[17:08] <dholbach> I'll take a look at it tomorrow
[17:09] <doko> about bug 243130. not sure how to fix this properly. that would require an update of the config files on upgrade
[17:09] <doko> the parameter name did change (upstream did choose another one when implementing this)
[17:10] <cjwatson> these are conffiles, aren't they?
[17:11] <doko> yes
[17:11] <cjwatson> while it violates the letter of policy, we *could* say that if the conffile has been changed locally and is known to be wrong now then we can get away with changing it in a maintainer script
[17:12] <cjwatson> however, it seems like it would be simpler just to add a tiny bit of compatibility code in fontconfig to support our old parameter name
[17:12] <asac> doko: this is because we patched it in ubuntu before upstream applied something?
[17:12] <doko> yes
[17:12] <asac> right i wanted to suggest compatibility code for one cycle
[17:12] <asac> with a warning
[17:12] <cjwatson> that's what I've done in openssh, and IMO it's just what you get to deal with if you introduce new parameter names before upstream
[17:12] <cjwatson> I'd suggest maintaining it forever
[17:12] <cjwatson> the old configuration files won't go away, and people won't see the warnings
[17:13] <asac> thats ok too
[17:13] <doko> hmm, ok, will have a look then
[17:13] <asac> (but upstream might introduce a conflicting constant at some point)
[17:13] <cjwatson> that sort of compatibility is usually really easy to maintain, IME - just a single added line or similar
[17:13] <doko> I assume editing the file where we ourself did use the parameter is ok as well?
[17:13] <cjwatson> anyway, you could consider the maintainer script approach, but it would require extreme care
[17:13] <cjwatson> editing which file?
[17:14] <doko>  /etc/fonts/conf.d/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf and /etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf
[17:14] <asac> doko: so editing == maintainerscript?
[17:15] <cjwatson> right, that's the "you might be able to get away with changing a conffile in the maintainer script if it was already changed locally" thing
[17:15]  * TheMuso asks whether there is anything else he needs to be around for... I think we are over time, and I'd like to get to bed. :)
[17:15] <cjwatson> I'd personally say that that's a lot *more* effort than maintaining compatibility with the old option name
[17:15] <cjwatson> testing all the cases is really hard
[17:15] <cjwatson> TheMuso: I think we're more or less done
[17:16] <doko> ok
[17:16] <cjwatson> let's move further fontconfig discussion to #-devel; thanks all
[17:16] <cjwatson> adjourned
[17:16] <asac> thanks
[17:16] <evand> thanks
[17:16] <TheMuso> thanks.
[17:16]  * TheMuso crashes.
[17:16] <calc> thanks
[17:16] <cjwatson> (no time for AOB, bring it up on the list :-))
[17:16] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[17:16] <liw> thanks
[17:17] <slangasek> thanks
[17:17] <bryce_> thanks
[18:00] <davmor2> Hello Everybody
[18:00] <ara_> hi!
[18:00] <heno> hey!
[18:00] <bdmurray> hello
[18:00]  * cgregan waves
[18:00]  * ogasawara waves
[18:01] <pedro_> hey hey!
[18:02] <sbeattie> hey
[18:03] <heno> I've pinged a few people, let's start
[18:03] <heno> #startmeeting
[18:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is heno.
[18:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:03] <schwuk> Hi all
[18:04] <LaserJock> hi everybody
[18:04] <heno> I didn't see any agenda items, but I've just added some ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[18:05] <heno> First let's do a quick round-table of what QA work everyone has been up to this week
[18:05] <heno> [TOPIC] Round table
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Round table
[18:06] <ara_> ok, I'll start
[18:06] <heno> schwuk and I had a 2-day sprint where we talked about the certification site and reporting from test runs
[18:06]  * stgraber waves
[18:06] <ara_> or not :)
[18:06] <heno> ara_: go ahead
[18:06] <LaserJock> ara_: alphabetical order? :-)
[18:07] <heno> schwuk: can you give a a summary after that?
[18:07] <ara_> ok, last week I have following LDTP 1.3 Feature Freeze exception
[18:07] <ara_> and it was finally accepted
[18:07] <schwuk> heno: sure
[18:07] <ara_> therefore Intrepid will be released with version 1.3 of LDTP which includes a lot of good bug fixes
[18:08] <ara_> apart of that I have been preparing some PPAs (already in my archive) for the testing library and the desktop tests
[18:08] <ara_> you can download them now if you want to give them a try
[18:09] <ara_> as part of the UDW I gave a session on Thursday about the desktop testing library and how to use it
[18:09] <ara_> alpha 5 testing occupied also some time
[18:10] <ara_> schwuk: you can go now if you want
[18:10] <schwuk> ara_: thanks
[18:10] <schwuk> As heno  said we had a 2-day sprint covering a few topics
[18:11] <mark_> This isn't seamonkey :/
[18:11] <schwuk> The primary focus was reporting of the data collected by the checkbox tool, and how we can present/expose it.
[18:12] <cr3> schwuk: fyi, a submission can now consist of >40K results :)
[18:12] <schwuk> We also discussed enchancements to checkbox, and encouraging participation in isotesting, especially for milestone testing.
[18:12] <schwuk> cr3: can or does?
[18:12] <cr3> schwuk: fyi2, including disk information has been committed :)
[18:12] <cr3> schwuk: does, see today's build results
[18:13] <heno> but we urgently need to get those results reported in some form
[18:13] <schwuk> Today I've been recovering from the long drive :), getting some testing hardware setup and the first cut of summary reports as discussed during the sprint.
[18:13] <heno> because X pass Y fail means nothing to observers
[18:14] <heno> I sent a summary to the list just now, but it needs more detail
[18:14] <heno> you can look at the source code of the tests but that's inconvenient :)
[18:15] <schwuk> heno: which is why we need to make them more visible/pretty
[18:15] <heno> schwuk: yep - WIP
[18:15] <cr3> heno: I was planning to add debugging information to each test so that a bug could be reported from a failure, but I was waiting for Launchpad integration beforehand. Adding debugging information is pretty easy though, so we might want to bump the priority.
[18:16] <heno> We'll report back to the list as soon as we have something readable
[18:16] <heno> cr3: it's too early to look at automated bug reporting
[18:17] <heno> ok, let's move along
[18:17] <heno> cr3 - roundtable blurb?
[18:17] <cr3> heno: well, if we introduce debugging information before Launchpad integration, that would imply manual bug reporting... but at least we'd have all the necessary information
[18:17] <cr3> heno: sure
[18:18] <heno> (actually we should prepare these ahead of time if we want this as a regular feature)
[18:18] <cr3> 1. client side queue has been completed in order to support larger submissions, such as the resulting >40K tests from: ltp, lsp and autotest.
[18:18] <davmor2> heno: could be for once a fornight
[18:19] <cr3> 2. various bugs fixed, such as loging in to certification.canonical.com, queue problems, third party test parsing.
[18:19] <heno> ok, thanks
[18:19] <heno> bdmurray: ?
[18:19] <cr3> 3. created production and staging branches for the certification website. the production code is currently online and shared by a single user on the server. staging is almost there.
[18:20] <cr3> 4. worked on alpha-5 testing which has been failing to netinstall because of a bug in dpkg, tried to workaround by reverting to the version from alpha-4 but that didn't work.
[18:20] <bdmurray> I blogged about the needs-packaging reviewer script and set it up as a cronjob on people.ubuntu.com
[18:21] <cr3> 4.1. attempted to workaround alpha-5 problems by testing daily current from today but there's now a problem with dependencies in landscape-client
[18:21] <cr3> 5. currently working on reporting installation failures which are not being reporting, only successful installations are being reported
[18:21] <heno> the landscape issue is currently being discussed in u-devel
[18:21] <bdmurray> Additionally, I need some more tweaking of the xorg validation py-lp-b script and went through a ton of xorg related bugs and validated their configs
[18:22] <bdmurray> s/need/did/
[18:22] <cr3> heno: I thought there was some automated script during the build process to detect dependency issues
[18:22] <davmor2> cr3: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/
[18:23] <heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: any further feedback on the package pages?
[18:23] <davmor2> cr3 go to ubuntu and then latest
[18:23] <bdmurray> heno: other than our own not much afaik
[18:24] <ogasawara> heno: I've only seen a note mdz posted
[18:24] <cr3> davmor2: only for livecd?
[18:24] <heno> I might need some more pimping :)
[18:24] <heno> ogasawara: any news?
[18:25] <cr3> schwuk: by the way, I'll be sending an email with details from the production server once completed
[18:25] <ogasawara> heno:  I'm planning on making some improvements to the pkg pages per the feature requests so I'll send some more email
[18:25] <ogasawara> heno:  re roundtable - I've just mainly been continuing to follow up with the 2.6.27 feedback from the call for testing as well as Alpha5 - final decision should be made this week re 2.6.27
[18:26] <davmor2> cr3: there are 2 places for alt http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily/current/ report.html which show up most but not all and http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntu/intrepid/ but good luck with that one it's all gibberish to me :)
[18:27] <sbeattie> ogasawara: does it look like we'll stick with 2.6.27?
[18:27] <heno> ogasawara: thanks - hopefully we can get some more automated HW testing in before that
[18:28] <ogasawara> sbeattie: yup, it's looking like we'll go with 2.6.27 barring anything major showing up between now and the 14th
[18:28] <cr3> davmor2: those reports are very interesting, thanks so much for the heads up
[18:28] <heno> sbeattie: your turn :) I know you've been busy with partner QA
[18:29] <heno> we are trying to tigten the raise the quality of the partner packages a bit
[18:30] <sbeattie> Yeah, I've mostly been diverted with some QA on partner packages, and the process around that.
[18:30] <sbeattie> Did iso testing last week as well, and in the background have been trying to write the regression tracking scripts.
[18:30] <heno> sbeattie: I sent an email to the list about the regression testing
[18:31] <heno> please just reply to that when you have something up
[18:31] <sbeattie> heno: yep, very nice, thanks. When I get the script beaten into shape, will followup.
[18:31] <heno> ok, I've expanded https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking a bit
[18:31] <heno> pedro_: ?
[18:32] <pedro_> well I've mostly doing a lot of triage as always  and ISO testing
[18:32] <pedro_> I've also working with jcastro on revamping the Bugs/* pages
[18:32] <pedro_> so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs
[18:32] <pedro_> would be nice if you can give us some feedback on that ;-)
[18:32] <heno> oooh, nice!
[18:33] <pedro_> I've also noticed that a couple of the QA headers page aren't too hot
[18:33] <pedro_> so i did a mockup for example for the bugsquad one
[18:33] <davmor2> ooohhhh pretty
[18:33] <pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PedroVillavicencio/test
[18:33] <pedro_> what do you guys think about that?
[18:33] <pedro_> do you want me to revamp the QA header also? ;-)
[18:33] <heno> that looks great!
[18:33] <jcastro> I think it all looks awesome
[18:33]  * pedro_ is a wiki guy for this week
[18:34] <heno> yes please :)
[18:34] <pedro_> alright will do that then, and yep that's all from me, yesterday was on leave so that's all ;-)
[18:34] <sbeattie> pedro_: +1, that's great!
[18:34] <pedro_> sbeattie: glad you like it!
[18:34] <LaserJock> pedro_: very nice
[18:35] <heno> anyone else want to report anything? stgraber, LaserJock, davmor2, jcastro ?
[18:35] <pedro_> so if you think we're missing a link or something just add them to the header ;-)
[18:35] <LaserJock> I've been doing a little Edubuntu QA lately and mostly working on my PhD
[18:35] <jcastro> heno: we're almost done with the first cut of the +upstreamreport
[18:35] <jcastro> likely next week I will ask for some feedback from bug people
[18:35] <LaserJock> but this coming week I intend to work on SRU scripts
[18:35] <cr3> I'd like to put my head on the line by saying that checkbox 0.2 better be in intrepid before next meeting :)
[18:36] <ogasawara> schwuk: re the test reports.  let me know when you've got something, I'd be happy to review and try to get the kernel team to review as well.  or you can just send us all an email.
[18:36] <davmor2> I've add this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/CDBuildQuickTest cr3 ara may interest you.   It's just a rough but the idea is 2 quick checks will normally tell you if the daily build will install or not
[18:36] <cr3> LaserJock: SRU scripts? what do those do?
[18:36] <heno> cr3: we should really get these things in before FF for next cycle
[18:38] <ara_> davmor2: that's so good
[18:38] <cr3> davmor2: bookmarked :)
[18:38] <davmor2> Thank cjwatson for the info I just put it down for us :)
[18:39] <heno> davmor2: that looks great. We should parse those sources for the weather report, or so
[18:39] <heno> ogasawara: ^ ?
[18:39] <stgraber> heno: not much my side, Brainstorm will soon have a big update that I'm currently testing. The problem is that it requires Hardy and our server is currently on Dapper, a RT ticket has been opened.
[18:39] <cr3> heno: I'll probably want that information when I probe cdimage
[18:39] <ogasawara> heno:  I'll take a look
[18:39] <cr3> fyi, I'm only probing archive and only have stubs for cdimage
[18:40] <heno> ok, let's close the round table session, thanks everyone!
[18:40] <davmor2> Wubi is nackered I confirmed today :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/268123
[18:40] <heno> We've talked about test reporting
[18:40] <heno> [TOPIC] Release meeting report
[18:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Release meeting report
[18:40] <heno> Most Fridays there is a release meeting on IRC
[18:41] <heno> the QA team should prepare a brief status report for that
[18:41] <LaserJock> cr3: generating http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/sru/todo.html and http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/sru/qa.html
[18:41] <LaserJock> cr3: sbeattie and I share code
[18:42] <heno> items to include: * serious bugs we've found, not yet on the milestone list
[18:42] <heno> * the state of our testing infrastructure - including blocking bugs for automation, kvm, etc
[18:43] <heno> these may not be blockers for the release as such, but  makes testing difficult
[18:43] <heno> What else should we include?
[18:44] <sbeattie> * new regressions (of some minimum threshold of importance?)
[18:44] <sbeattie> * iso testing results
[18:45] <davmor2> next week I'll start back on smoke testing pre-release could be fun to add those results :)
[18:45] <heno> iso results> should  be a review of iso-tagged bugs and the smoke testing
[18:45] <heno> yep :)
[18:45] <heno> sbeattie: can you set up a wiki page structure for this?
[18:46] <sbeattie> heno: sure
[18:46] <heno> I would guess a root page for these guidelines/template and sub pages for individual report instances
[18:46] <LaserJock> would basic bug stats relevant to release be a good idea?
[18:47] <heno> LaserJock: I think so - I should we slice it though? we often don't know what release a bug is for automatically
[18:48] <heno> we could use apport data and then add an 'unknown' category for unparseable bugs filed after a certain date
[18:49] <LaserJock> can you use /ubuntu/<release>/+bugs lists?
[18:49] <heno> I think we want to highlight bugs not already on that list
[18:51] <davmor2> Would it be useful to highlight regressions in hardy too?
[18:51] <heno> davmor2: from hardy you mean?
[18:51] <ara__> I am back, sorry, my connection went down
[18:52] <heno> the release meetings are focused on intrepid atm
[18:52] <davmor2> heno: no I mean in updates to hardy
[18:52] <sbeattie> LaserJock: that list is a small subset of the actual bugs contained within the development branch.
[18:52] <heno> that would be more appropriate around the next hardy point release
[18:52] <davmor2> okay
[18:53] <heno> davmor2: see my ml post about tracking these generally though
[18:53] <davmor2> seen it interesting :)
[18:53] <LaserJock> well, I don't know what all they want for stats, I was just thinking they'd be interested in some :-)
[18:53] <heno> regressions in updates are arguably among the worst bugs we have
[18:53] <LaserJock> probably need to ask them
[18:54] <heno> right. sbeattie please post a note to the list when you have a page up and we can all add ideas
[18:54] <sbeattie> heno: noted.
[18:54] <heno> and then we can ask for feedback at the meeting
[18:55] <heno> any other business?
[18:55] <heno> we have about 5 min.
[18:56] <bdmurray> When I was looking at bug with xorg.conf files I thought it might be useful to tags bugs w/o a package that have an attachment as has-attachment or something.  Thoughts?
[18:56] <sbeattie> bdmurray: can you just report the attachment in your no-package report?
[18:57] <heno> I agree that would be tidier
[18:57] <bdmurray> sbeattie: yes, I could do that instead.  I thought having them searchable in launchpad would be useful though.  It almost seems like one should be able to search for bugs w/ attachments in lp itself.
[18:59] <sbeattie> bdmurray: hrm, it already lets you search for bugs with patches attached, I wonder why not attachments in general?
[18:59] <bdmurray> sbeattie: indeed
[19:00] <heno> file an LP bug :)
[19:00] <bdmurray> that was my though too, but in the interim we could do something
[19:00] <bdmurray> and I think that something would be most useful for hinting w/ bugs w/o a package
[19:00] <heno> let's wrap up
[19:00] <heno> #endmeeting
[19:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:00.
[19:01] <heno> Thanks everyone!
[19:01] <davmor2> Bye Everybody
[19:01] <ara__> bye!


[09:02] <mup> Issue operator#753 closed: (possible) bug in networking model <Created by PietroPasotti> <Closed by jnsgruk> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/753>
[09:02] <mup> PR operator#757 closed: Fixes address info value getter <Created by PietroPasotti> <Merged by jnsgruk> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/757>
[11:01] <mup> PR operator#755 closed: Typing utils <Created by PietroPasotti> <Merged by jnsgruk> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/755>
[15:53] <mup> PR operator#746 closed: Proposing a PR template <Created by pengale> <Merged by rwcarlsen> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/746>


 NBBI
 26V5
 36V5
 90GW
 9OGW
 8H4A
[06:58] <dev_464684844165> yoo
 191W
 anybody here still online? I just installed Kubuntu and I am trying to install the Vietnamese input method. I am totally new to Linux. Can anybody help, please? Thank you
[13:54] <BluesKaj> Hi all


[00:00] <Sarvatt> oh yeah tjaalton, you have a 965 dont you? i think yours can recover from those errors that hang me if so
[01:41] <RAOF> Whose got an nv50+ class card and would like to try nouveau?
[02:13] <Sarvatt> installing it now
[02:14] <Sarvatt> well 300mb of other updates to grab too
[02:17] <Sarvatt> should nouveau-kernel-source recommend the ddx or anything?
[02:26] <Sarvatt> hmm the kernel's not even trying to load nouveau
[02:27] <Sarvatt> FATAL: Module nouveau not found.
[02:29] <RAOF> Sarvatt: Actually, the kernel module sholud be useful even without the DDX; it *should* provide working suspend/resume.
[02:30] <RAOF> Sarvatt: Pulling from xorg-edgers into lucid?
[02:30] <Sarvatt> yeah i have edgers on that laptop
[02:30] <Sarvatt> got the 1217 one
[02:31] <RAOF> Hm.
[02:31] <RAOF> Works nicely on _this_ laptop.
[02:31] <RAOF> You've got a nv5x class chip?
[02:31] <Sarvatt> no modules in /lib/modules/2.6.32-8-generic/updates/dkms
[02:32] <Sarvatt> 8400M GS
[02:32] <RAOF> Ok, that's weird.
[02:32] <RAOF> Yay!  Tester for firmware loading.
[02:32] <Sarvatt> NV86
[02:32] <RAOF> So, I know that 1217 builds happily against 2.6.32-8-generic, because it's done so here.  What's your make.log say?
[02:34] <Sarvatt> weird, looks like it built it for 2.6.32-7
[02:34] <RAOF> Is that your running kernel?
[02:35] <Sarvatt> 2.6.32-8 was i was sure, on -8 now though
[02:35] <Sarvatt> whats the command to build it again?
[02:36] <Sarvatt> nouveau, 0.0.15+git20091217, 2.6.32-7-generic, x86_64: installed
[02:36] <Sarvatt> guess i installed -8 then installed nouveau-kernel-source before rebooting..
[02:36] <RAOF> Oh, right.
[02:37] <RAOF> Yes!  And dkms is no longer run on boot, and I haven't changed the postinst to build for all available kernels.
[02:38] <RAOF> dkms build -k 2.6.32-8-generic -m nouveau -v 0.0.15+git20091217
[02:38] <Sarvatt> thats pretty nasty because it seems like what most people installing a new release > a week after release is going to be doing for nvidia or fglrx or nouveau
[02:39] <Sarvatt> guess i should have sudo-ed that, tons of no permission to delete errors
[02:39] <RAOF> As I understand it, it's now the responsibility of nouveau-kernel-source to build against all installed kernels when it gets installed/updated, and after that dkms will get triggered on kernel install.
[02:39] <RAOF> Yeah, you should've ;)
[02:42] <bryce> yeah that should eliminate a whole class of bugs
[02:42] <RAOF> Where the module isn't available at boot & X starts up too fast? :)
[02:42] <Sarvatt> hmm looks like it installed to 2.6.32-7 again...
[02:42] <RAOF> Also, makes sense for nouveau, 'cause it'd quite like to be in the initramfs.
[02:43] <RAOF> Sarvatt: You _may_ need to run that command again with "install" rather than "build".
[02:43] <Sarvatt> oh thanks
[02:43] <Sarvatt> there we go, rebooting again
[02:44] <Sarvatt> i'm doing it without nouveau.modeset=1 and quiet splash added just to see if it works right
[02:45] <Sarvatt> couldnt start without quiet removed before
[02:45] <Sarvatt> looks like i cant now still
[02:46] <Sarvatt> new spam in dmesg every 10 ns :D
[02:46] <Sarvatt> gdm greeter garbled
[02:48] <Sarvatt> Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=//vmlinuz-2.6.32-8-generic root=UUID=7f0c72b4-6c48-4ef9-9bfd-46a724d96bc5 ro
[02:49] <Sarvatt> that worked, had to remove quiet splash still.. wish i knew why
[02:50] <Sarvatt> x is on :1 it looks like though
[02:56] <Sarvatt> works fine though, dont see any difference from the 12-04 package http://sarvatt.com/downloads/nouveau.txt
[03:05] <RAOF> You won't need nouveau.modeset=1; kms is enabled by default.
[03:06] <RAOF> Hm.  nouveau is getting loaded suspiciously late in your boot sequence... is /etc/initramfs-tools/hooks/nouveau_kms_hook executable?
[03:07] <Sarvatt> i just ran a manual update-initramfs -u to try to put it in and got a bunch of errors putting the firmware in
[03:08] <RAOF> Hm.
[03:08] <Sarvatt> http://paste.ubuntu.com/343234/
[03:08] <Sarvatt> ignore the last error, the latest initramfs-tools is making it give that for all kernels
[03:08] <RAOF> Also, it's not loading the firmware; I'm therefore surprised that it "works fine", because you've got no acceleration :)
[03:09] <Sarvatt> oh its not loading the ihex-ed firmwares in the initramfs hooks?
[03:09] <RAOF> Hm.  I thought it should be, but I don't have an nv5x class card to test on, and they've already included a nv4x voodoo generator in the drm.
[03:10] <Sarvatt> nouveau_kms_hook is executable
[03:10] <Sarvatt> the firmwares all have .ihex extentions in /lib/firmware/nouveau/ here
[03:11] <RAOF> Hm, true.  Nothing else seems to...
[03:11] <Sarvatt> I dont notice any difference without acceleration to be honest :D
[03:11] <RAOF> Well, I would, because I've got compiz ;P
[03:11] <RAOF> I might need to actually build the firmware in some way...
[03:12] <Sarvatt> i think you can use ctxfw=1 to make it load the firmware for your card?
[03:12] <Sarvatt> parm:           ctxfw:Use external firmware blob for grctx init (NV40) (int)
[03:12] <RAOF> Yeah.  I'd need to grab the firmware though, too.
[03:16] <Sarvatt> is just adding nouveau to the initrd enough? will it pick up ttm and the others automatically?
[03:18] <RAOF> Yes, it should.
[03:19] <RAOF> Indeed, it does; the hooks pick up the transitive dependencies of a kernel module.
[03:19] <RAOF> It might not pick up the firmware, though.  Let me check...
[03:33] <Sarvatt> can ya just ship the extracted firmware with it? looks like they just ihexed it so it wouldnt ship binaries that get cleaned when you make clean the kernel
[03:36] <RAOF> I don't have the extracted firmware :).  I guess I need to work to build the ihex into usable firmware; it can't be that hard.
[04:01] <Sarvatt> can ya add a make firmware_install job to it somewhere?
[04:06] <RAOF> That would be the plan, yes.
[04:39] <RAOF> Gah.  You need a whole host of stuff to make firmware_install work.
[05:55] <RAOF> Phargh.  Where did debian/tmp go?
[09:08] <tjaalton> Sarvatt: yep
[09:48] <tjaalton> tseliot: hey, have you started working on the new nvidia packages?
[09:51] <tseliot> tjaalton: yep
[09:51] <tjaalton> tseliot: was there a consensus on the renaming business?
[09:52] <tjaalton> or will you use the ones we have now until it's decided
[09:52] <tseliot> tjaalton: I think we agreed to use nvidia-current and nvidia-173 and nvidia-96
[09:53] <tjaalton> well I was dropped off because of the ddos ;)
[09:53] <tjaalton> so didn't get to say anything
[09:53] <tseliot> oh
[09:53] <tseliot> what's your take on this?
[09:54] <tseliot> pitti let bryce and I decide
[09:55] <tjaalton> I talked to bryce last night and he advised to contact you :)
[09:55] <tseliot> ok, if you have any objections to the new names just let me know
[09:56] <tjaalton> are those for the source packages?
[09:56] <tseliot> no, just for the binaries
[09:56] <tjaalton> so what's the "current" source package going to be?
[09:57] <tseliot> nvidia-graphics-driver-current?
[09:57] <tseliot> better ideas are always welcome
[09:57] <tjaalton> what about dropping the current part? does it serve a purpose?
[09:58] <tseliot> not in the source
[09:58] <tjaalton> I (again, after 2y) looked at how debian did them..
[09:58] <tjaalton> the latest is n-g-d, produces nvidia-glx, and ton of other binaries
[09:58] <tseliot> so would it be nvidia-graphics-driver, nvidia-graphics-driver-173 and nvidia-graphics-driver-96?
[09:59] <tseliot> it will generate only 3 binaries
[09:59] <tjaalton> legacy ones are n-g-d-legacy-96xx etc, produce n-glx-legacy-96xx etc
[09:59] <tseliot> -current, -current-dev, -current-modaliases
[09:59] <tjaalton> yeah it's fine to ship the binaries in one package
[10:00] <tseliot> they were a bit against "-legacy" for binaries but maybe it's ok for sources
[10:00] <tjaalton> we don't have to change the legacy ones, they are fine as they are
[10:00] <tjaalton> n-g-d-173 etc
[10:01] <tjaalton> source and binary
[10:01] <tjaalton> oh wait
[10:01] <tjaalton> n-g-173 binary
[10:01] <tjaalton> uh
[10:01] <tseliot> ;)
[10:01] <tjaalton> can't be -glx if it ships more than just the lib
[10:01] <tjaalton> (what a mess..)
[10:01] <tjaalton> :)
[10:02] <tseliot> maybe we can talk again about this when I'm back. I have to go now
[10:02] <tjaalton> sure
[10:09] <tjaalton> bryce: please use UNRELEASED if you won't upload right away. xorg-server now shows "karmic" as the release :)
[11:09] <tjaalton> tseliot: I think that calling the merged blob 'nvidia-glx' makes sense, since it's been like that forever
[11:10] <tseliot> tjaalton: but that can be confusing as it's not just glx and users will start asking where the kernel source is
[11:10] <tjaalton> and shipping the vdpau support in the same package doesn't mean much. even the free drivers will likely ship it with the rest of the driver
[11:10] <tjaalton> they don't need to know?
[11:10] <tjaalton> since it's installed already
[11:11] <tseliot> well, nvidia-glx-$VER is installed
[11:11] <tjaalton> Provides: nvidia-kernel-source
[11:11] <tseliot> yes, of course
[11:12] <tjaalton> but what other package needs it? why would someone need to find it?
[11:12] <tjaalton> so the binary will still have a version number?
[11:13] <tseliot> no other package needs it
[11:13] <tseliot> no, only legacy drivers will have a version number
[11:13] <tjaalton> ok
[11:13] <tseliot> -current will always be just -current
[11:14] <tjaalton> debian doesn't have one either (even the binary, so they don't care about upgrades breaking)
[11:14] <tjaalton> +potentially
[11:14] <tseliot> nvidia-common will deal with upgrades in our case
[11:14] <tjaalton> not with apt-get
[11:15] <tjaalton> not everyone uses update-manager
[11:15] <tseliot> I know but
[11:15] <tseliot> 1) we support dist-upgrades only through update-manager
[11:15] <tjaalton> let launchpad know that as well ;)
[11:15] <tseliot> 2) nvidia-common will complain through debconf and let users know what to install
[11:16]  * tseliot didn't choose 1)
[11:16] <tjaalton> who said that?
[11:16] <tseliot> either mvo_ or pitti
[11:16] <tjaalton> ok
[11:16] <tseliot> I *guess*
[11:16] <tjaalton> well, I don't think it's a huge issue
[11:17] <tseliot> right
[11:17] <tseliot> if users choose apt-get they will know what to do when they see 2)
[11:19] <tseliot> so, shall we use nvidia-graphics-driver, nvidia-graphics-driver-173, nvidia-graphics-driver-96 or nvidia-graphics-driver-current, nvidia-graphics-driver-173 and nvidia-graphics-driver-96?
[11:19] <tjaalton> the former, imo
[11:19] <tseliot> I have no strong opinions on this
[11:19] <tseliot> ok then
[11:19] <tjaalton> can't describe why I don't like "current" :)
[11:20] <tseliot> they use it in Mandriva and it seems to work well
[11:20] <tjaalton> it just doesn't feel right
[11:20] <tseliot> it could be "latest" but that wouldn't be entirely correct either
[11:20] <tjaalton> makes the name longer, that's for sure :)
[11:21] <tseliot> true
[11:22] <tseliot> I don't think it really matters if we use another name, as long as we have the latest driver (i.e. the one which NVIDIA consider as non-legacy) in the same source package+
[11:22] <tseliot> s/+//
[11:24] <tjaalton> debian has just n-g-d, and though it'll likely never be merged, I guess it makes sense to keep the same name here as well
[11:24] <tseliot> yes, for the source
[11:24] <tseliot> it makes sense
[11:25] <tjaalton> ok that one is clear then :)
[11:26] <tjaalton> well, I don't care about the binary that much to fight against -current, if that's already been ok'd
[11:27] <tseliot> yes
[11:27] <tseliot> ok, it sounds like we got to an agreement and/or a compromise ;)
[11:27] <tjaalton> something along those lines yeah
[11:27] <tjaalton> now get crackin' :)
[11:28] <tseliot> right
[11:28] <tjaalton> I was thinking that maybe the packaging could be in bzr or so, apart from the binaries
[11:28] <tseliot> I was about to ask you about it
[11:29] <tseliot> yes, maybe it's better if we use a bzr branch as ubuntu packages use bzr
[11:29] <tseliot> well, most of them
[11:29] <tjaalton> I don't know how the tools work with giant binaries.. for instance if I replace one with another, will the diff be a huge binary blob or what
[11:31] <tseliot> good question. I think you would get a readable diff and a binary blob using the web bzr interface. I don't remember how it works in practice
[11:32] <tseliot> maybe keeping only the packaging in bzr is a better idea
[11:32] <tjaalton> but one possibility would be to not have the binaries in bzr, but I don't know if that's possible
[11:32] <tjaalton> like, it auto-imports every upload AIUI
[11:32] <tjaalton> otherwise it would just mean copying the binaries from the source package to the tree, and debuild -S  etc
[11:34] <tseliot> example: the diff for this is 77.8 Mb :-/  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/karmic/nvidia-graphics-drivers-180/karmic/revision/21
[11:35] <tseliot> ouch
[11:35] <tseliot> does git work any better with binaries?
[11:35] <tjaalton> ugh
[11:35] <tjaalton> I don't know
[11:41] <james_w> hi tseliot
[11:41] <spork> Hi all.  I'd like to get Xorg 1.7 on Karmic, with nVidia drivers.  Is this possible?
[11:41] <tjaalton> spork: no
[11:41] <tjaalton> spork: meaning that there are no packages for it
[11:42] <spork> (reason being that I need 1.7 for the multi-card support that dropped in 1.5, and GTX260 support which 1.4 doesn't have)
[11:42] <spork> so it's build from source, or suffer?
[11:42] <spork> possibly those are the same thing  ;)
[11:42] <tjaalton> you mean nvidia binary driver?
[11:43] <spork> yeah
[11:43] <tseliot> hi james_w
[11:43] <spork> Well...  I want dual-head from one of the cards - last time I checked nv driver couldn't do that?
[11:43] <tseliot> james_w: tjaalton and I were wondering how bzr would work to maintain nvidia drivers in a branch
[11:44] <tjaalton> spork: no, but nvidia has twinview
[11:44] <tjaalton> and that works just fine with 1.5
[11:44] <spork> right, but that doesn't work for two cards
[11:44] <tseliot> james_w: as nvidia drivers contain the packaging scripts and some big binary blobs
[11:44] <spork> so I can't run the third screen
[11:44] <tjaalton> spork: how does 1.7 change it?
[11:45] <spork> reintroduced support for multiple cards
[11:45] <spork> libpciaccess broken it at 1.4->1.5, but apparently they fixed it recently
[11:46] <tseliot> james_w: the problem is that when we include a new upstream release we get a diff which can be as big as 71 Mb (or more) because of the binaries
[11:46] <tjaalton> spork: nvidia doesn't use that
[11:47] <spork> ...well 1.4 worked, 1.5 didn't.  Everything I've read said that libpciaccess was the reason, but I'm willing to learn different.
[11:47] <tjaalton> spork: if you mean vgaarb, it's for free drivers AIUI
[11:47]  * spork is looking for the xorg bug
[11:48]  * tseliot -> brb
[11:53] <spork> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-April/045379.html is some discussion about it
[11:53] <spork> they mention a vga arbiter (as something that didn't exist at that point, I think)
[11:53] <spork> ah, here's the bug: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20816
[11:54] <tjaalton> yes, but I don't think that applies to nvidia. the vga-arb touches the kernel drm level too, and nvidia doesn't use that at all
[11:54] <tjaalton> it should be possible to use a combination of xinerama+twinview
[11:55] <tjaalton> dunno
[11:55] <spork> it was, at 1.4
[11:55] <spork> although it made more sense to use xinerama across all 3
[11:55] <spork> some odd behaviour with full-screening applications otherwise
[11:56] <tjaalton> try it on lucid alpha1
[11:57] <spork> yeah, I was considering that.  I hear Lucid is a bit wobbly still?
[11:57] <spork> tempting though
[11:57] <tjaalton> that's why there are livecd's
[11:57] <tjaalton> for testing
[11:58] <spork> this 9.10 install is fresh anyway
[11:58] <spork> I may as well upgrade it and see if the explosions are pretty or not
[11:59] <tjaalton> first of all, there is no working nvidia blob yet
[11:59] <tjaalton> packaged
[11:59] <tjaalton> and since you need that, the livecd won't work either
[12:00] <spork> ah
[12:00] <spork> well, I could still test to see if both cards come up
[12:00] <spork> I'll just have dual head on different monitors  :)
[12:01] <spork> centre and right instead of centre and left
[12:01] <spork> I thought I'd seen someone running 1.7+nvidia on a Arch Linux forum
[12:01]  * spork googles again
[12:02] <spork> * nvidia 190.42 supports xorg 1.7 if you have a nvdia card gf6 or up
[12:02] <tjaalton> there's some ppa where it's packaged
[12:03] <spork> right
[12:03]  * tseliot -> lunch
[12:04] <virtuald> now that radeon kms is default, are someone working on power management?
[12:04] <tjaalton> upstram
[12:04] <tjaalton> +e
[12:05] <virtuald> 8]
[12:05] <james_w> tseliot: it should work fine
[12:05] <james_w> tseliot: it may not be terribly efficient, but shouldn't be too bad
[12:05] <virtuald> my x comes up on like every other boot
[13:03] <tseliot> james_w: ok, thanks