[12:08] <Keybuk> Kamion: how was your trip home?
[12:08] <desrt> Kamion; nobody really uses openoffice, ...
[12:09] <Kamion> Keybuk: uneventful
[12:09] <LaserJock> or that firefox thing ;-)
[12:09] <Kamion> (just how I like it)
[12:09] <desrt> apt-get install epiphany-browser, baby
[12:09] <Keybuk> Kamion: those foomatic ppds people claim aren't used?
[12:09] <Kamion> people suggesting things that won't happen, please don't bother - I'm serious here
[12:10] <Kamion> foomatic> hmm, would like opinion from printing gurus before doing that
[12:10] <desrt> anything you remove will step on at least one or two toes
[12:10] <Keybuk> Kamion: we ship several different gnome icon themes
[12:10] <Kamion> desrt: not if I remove the stuff that was only just added
[12:11] <Kamion> and honestly, I'm not that bothered about toes, but removing openoffice and firefox would step on sabdfl's toes and I like my job
[12:11] <desrt> Kamion; then you step on recently placed toes.  those hurt a lot.
[12:11] <Kamion> desrt: *shrug*
[12:11] <desrt> :)
[12:11] <Kamion> changes introducing breakage can and should be reverted
[12:11] <sivang> Kamion: hehe
[12:11] <Kamion> but I'd like to know if the people who committed those changes have any suggestions
[12:12] <Kamion> fonts are a distant possibility, but that's a tricky one too
[12:12] <desrt> right.  so y'all ship dejavu these days, right?
[12:12] <desrt> doesn't that, in theory, mean that you shouldn't be shipping all of the various codeset-specific fonts....
[12:13] <crimsun> Kamion: perhaps a few ttf- packages? For instance, I see ttf-bitstream-vera and ttf-dejavu for ubuntu-desktop.
[12:13] <crimsun> arg, too late.
[12:13] <sivang> speaking of fonts, I wonder if that caused emacs21 to have such ugly fonts be default...
[12:13] <desrt> crimsun; dejavu should stay
[12:13] <Kamion> it's stuff like ttf-kochi-* that's the real hugeness, but removing those would regress Japanese support
[12:14] <Kamion> ttf-bitstream-vera is 354028 bytes. who cares?
[12:14] <desrt> Kamion; kochi looks nice but is incomplete
[12:14] <Riddell> Kamion: could we look at having language packs Recommend on fonts (along with install recommends by default)
[12:14] <desrt> Kamion; if you use kochi you end up getting one character in kochi and the next one (which isn't in kochi) rendered in a different font -- looks awful
[12:15] <Kamion> desrt: honestly, I want an opinion from native Japanese people before nuking it
[12:15] <sivang> Riddell: FYI I'm trying to co-operate with KleanSweep's author to see how we can produce a unified system cleaning tool :-)
[12:15] <Kamion> Riddell: doesn't particularly help - there's no size gain unless we remove them from the CD and that is politically difficult
[12:15] <Riddell> Kamion: of course
[12:15] <Kamion> Riddell: if you want to run that particular gauntlet with sabdfl, silbs, and mdz, you're welcome :)
[12:15] <desrt> Kamion; a good call.  the girl who complained to me about the problem was chinese.  they are not to be trusted on issues about the japanese :)
[12:16] <Riddell> sivang: I don't even know what KleanSweep does :)
[12:16] <Kamion> I would expect Chinese to use characters not in kochi
[12:16] <desrt> Kamion; kanji is kanji
[12:16] <desrt> same codepoints in unicode regardless of the language you're in
[12:16] <sivang> Riddell: very perliminiary go at a tool for cleaning duplicates , borken binaries and stuff
[12:16] <Kamion> my understanding has always been that that is a huge oversimplification
[12:17] <desrt> Kamion; different languages hint the characters to be displayed slightly differently
[12:17] <Kamion> look, I'm not listening until you get a Japanese person to say that they don't need kochi. :)
[12:17] <desrt> Kamion; point is -- you're probably right about the japanese thing
[12:17] <desrt> i'm just explaining why it was a problem for her
[12:18] <sivang> Riddell: but already ahead of me, with a KDE GUI (plans are to have QT independent one) and a perl script as a backend. It's currently targetted for the experienced user (as many of KDE's stuff are) but hopefully together with the author who seems keen for getting involved in Kubuntu/Ubuntu we'll make it nice and easy.
[12:18] <Riddell> I wouldn't say kde is targeted at experienced users...
[12:18] <desrt> is ekiga on the cd?
[12:18] <sivang> Riddell: (e.g. it requires that you know which duplicates can be removed, and which files that do not belong to any package need to stay)
[12:18] <desrt> because seriously... nobody uses ekiga
[12:19] <Kamion> desrt: a bunch of Canonical employees would disagree with you there
[12:19] <desrt> it's at least several orders of magnatude between the users of fspot and ekiga
[12:19] <Keybuk> Kamion: example-content would buy us 20MB ... could strip something out of that
[12:19] <desrt> Kamion; canonical employees are not "human beings"
[12:19] <Kamion> thanks much
[12:19] <desrt> Keybuk; touchy
[12:19] <Keybuk> the dapper ogg alone would be 11MB
[12:20] <crimsun> also, how about using ogg vorbis in ubuntu-sounds?
[12:20] <Kamion> Keybuk: gnome icon themes> what are the sizes?
[12:20] <gnomefreak> can you drop bluetooth apps off install? to free up room?
[12:20] <Keybuk> desrt: though Mark is now telling everybody edgy will definitely come with mono
[12:20] <Keybuk> so taking that out would be equally touchy
[12:20] <sivang> hmmm..Mono...
[12:20] <Kamion> Keybuk: desrt isn't suggesting taking out mono
[12:20] <desrt> Keybuk; i was going to suggest example content earlier but i understand it has a special place in some important hearts...
[12:21] <Kamion> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 11137689 2006-05-24 15:37 Experience ubuntu.ogg
[12:21] <Kamion> crimsun: that's kind of the big one already ...
[12:21] <Keybuk> gnomefreak: they're not that big
[12:21] <Keybuk> clearly, we need bigger CDs
[12:21] <desrt> or different compression
[12:21] <Kamion> gnomefreak: see sizes in http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/edgy/desktop before making suggestions
[12:21] <gnomefreak> lol bigger cd's = dvds
[12:21] <LaserJock> or shorter .oggs
[12:21] <Keybuk> tbh, I really can't find anything to remove
[12:22] <Riddell> the example content video does seem like a likely candidate
[12:22] <Kamion> 3.6MB. Useful, but not sufficient in itself
[12:22] <tseng> 3650936
[12:22] <tseng> (1.2mb installed)
[12:22] <desrt> it has a lot of exotic deps
[12:23] <tseng> no thats not right
[12:23] <Kamion> I wouldn't be too opposed to taking out ekiga - would need to talk with sabdfl though
[12:24] <desrt> oh.  i have a good one.  nice and controversial
[12:24] <desrt> humans don't read /usr/share/doc
[12:25] <Kamion> not happening
[12:25] <desrt> yet every single package ships a few k of junk there
[12:25] <slomo> what about gthumb? does almost the same as f-spot... but that's only ~1,1 mb
[12:25] <Burgundavia> Kamion: what about dropping hwdb-client? I see kubuntu already has
[12:25] <desrt> slomo; you need gthumb for picture import to work
[12:25] <Kamion> Burgundavia: 2.1MB, not sufficient
[12:25] <desrt> slomo; unless fspot also does a camera-import sort of thing
[12:25] <Kamion> Burgundavia: and anyway, kubuntu never had it
[12:25] <Burgundavia> combine it with a few other removals
[12:25] <Kamion> check facts first
[12:26] <Burgundavia> thats boring ;)
[12:26] <slomo> desrt: afaik it does, i don't know that much about f-spot... better ask ajmitch ;)
[12:26] <Riddell> Burgundavia: no, kubuntu added hwdb-client
[12:27] <Burgundavia> Riddell: right
[12:27] <tseng> what about it?
[12:27] <tseng> desrt: yes of course f-spot does imports
[12:27] <tseng> desrt: thats the main use case
[12:27] <desrt> then gthumb is a good candidate for the chopping block
[12:27] <tseng> it is
[12:27] <Burgundavia> we could do eog as well
[12:28] <tseng> but you should read the lengthy thread of tears on -devel
[12:28] <desrt> take away eog and i'll remove your hands
[12:28] <Burgundavia> desrt: I use those!
[12:28] <slomo> Burgundavia: not eog... it has different use cases than f-spot
[12:28] <tseng> about "my favorite gthumb feature i will kick and scream about if you replace it"
[12:28] <desrt> and i use eog.
[12:28] <tseng> some of them were eog features
[12:28] <Kamion> desrt: you don't get to use "you guys aren't human beings" without also considering yourself not a human being, incidentally :P
[12:28] <Burgundavia> slomo: currently yes. f-spot just needs a "simple browse mode"
[12:29] <desrt> Kamion; it's fair... but jpegs and pngs open automatically in eog
[12:29] <desrt> Kamion; i know human beings use it en masse if only by that property alone
[12:30] <crimsun> xscreensaver-gl, perhaps? I'm thinking trimming multiple packages.
[12:30] <desrt> ya.. you could split out the screensavers into -core and -extras
[12:31] <desrt> but then you have a whole new microdebate
[12:31] <crimsun> they're split to some extent already according to the xscreensaver- descriptions, but my rationale is that the package doesn't actually provide any added functionality.
[12:32] <desrt> a friend just called.  i told him about the discussion we're having.  his first question: "wtf is ekiga?"
[12:32] <desrt> he's been an ubuntu user for almost 2 years :)
[12:32] <gnomefreak> gnome-meeting ;)
[12:34] <Keybuk> sivang: because it's a VoIP soft phone now, not a netmeeting client
[12:34] <Burgundavia> indeed
[12:34] <Kamion> crimsun: xscreensaver-gl is also a sabdfl item, I'm afraid - he took a personal interest in that
[12:34] <crimsun> ah
[12:34] <Keybuk> Kamion: is there anything left in desktop that sabdfl _hasn't_ taken a personal interest in?
[12:35] <Kamion> Keybuk: there are probably a few niche items :P
[12:35] <Kamion> is pitti around next week?
[12:35] <Riddell> I think he's canoeing
[12:35] <Keybuk> Kamion: computer says No
[12:35] <Kamion> bugger, was hoping to get weigh-in on the foomatic-filters-ppds suggestion
[12:36] <Keybuk> mdz is away, sabdfl is away
[12:36] <Kamion> oh, sabdfl is away too? meep
[12:36] <Riddell> so they won't be able to complain...
[12:36] <Burgundavia> Kamion: knot2 is targetted for later this week, no? (just want to know when I need to finally finish that bloody Knot2 page)
[12:36] <Keybuk> fabbione is away
[12:36] <sivang> Keybuk: ah
[12:36] <Kamion> Burgundavia: yes, assuming I can resolve this issue
[12:36] <Burgundavia> right
[12:36] <Keybuk> iwj is away
[12:36] <Keybuk> err
[12:37] <Keybuk> IS ANYONE AT WORK THIS WEEK ?!
[12:37] <Kamion> I am, though not Monday
[12:38] <Kamion> (bank holiday)
[12:38] <Keybuk> indeed
[12:38] <Keybuk> I'll be still on the way back from Cambridge tomorrow
[12:38] <Riddell> still at the BBQ?  must have been a good party
[12:38] <Keybuk> yeah
[12:41] <Kamion> anyone have comments on the suggested removal of foomatic-db-gutenprint?
[12:43] <nictuku> wouldn't a subversion extension for nautilus be useful? me and kov are writing one
[12:44] <Burgundavia> Kamion: removing it now is fairly painless, because we have another knot to readd it back in
[12:45] <Kamion> indeed
[12:46] <tseng> Kamion: the fact that I know nothing about that package could be a sign
[12:47] <Kamion> it's not
[12:47] <Riddell> printer drivers sound important to me
[12:47] <Kamion> no offence, but lots of people don't know about printer driver
[12:47] <Kamion> s
[12:47] <Kamion> Riddell: cupsys-driver-gutenprint apparently does everything necessary
[12:48] <Kamion> the claim is that foomatic-db-gutenprint is only needed for lpr and lprng spoolers, not cupsys
[12:48] <Burgundavia> Riddell: printer drivers are a general mess
[12:49] <Riddell> could test out if pitti has phone signal in his tent
[12:49] <Kamion> I've removed foomatic-db-gutenprint for now
[12:51] <Burgundavia> Riddell: part of the issue, afaict, there is no "central clearing house" for all printer drivers, that does a timely release. Gutenprint does some and linuxprinting.org has others
[12:52] <slomo> Kamion: is that enough free space? otherwise i would suggest gthumb additionally
[12:53] <Burgundavia> we should probably only ship with gthumb OR f-spot, we might want to remove gthumb to get additional testing on f-spots weakness'
[12:55] <Kamion> slomo: see http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/
[12:55] <Kamion> we need getting on for 30MB
[12:56] <Kamion> I think I might well unilaterally drop "Experience Ubuntu.ogg" and apologise to sabdfl later
[12:57] <Burgundavia> Kamion: example content can be trimmed. It is only really important for the final release anyway
[12:57] <Kamion> gthumb seems a reasonable suggestion (if controversial), but it's only 1MB
[12:57] <Burgundavia> 95% of the users of edgy have already seen that video
[12:57] <Kamion> Burgundavia: if something is going to come back in for the final release, then we need to reserve space for it early
[12:57] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:57] <Kamion> but granted on the second point
[12:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:01] <Spads> mdke: ping
[01:01] <geser> hello
[01:01] <geser> what is the correct syntax to mark a bug as fixed through the changelog?
[01:02] <Kamion> oho, there are in fact a lot of language packs I can trim
[01:02] <Kamion> that helps :)
[01:02] <Kamion> though maybe doesn't help Edubuntu
[01:04] <LaserJock> heh, poor Edubuntu, always so fat ;-)
[01:04] <Keybuk> yeah, get rid of the lebowskistan locales
[01:05] <Burgundavia> languagesupport-whiterussian?
[01:19] <Riddell> Kamion: presumably edubuntu doesn't have mono?
[01:19] <Kamion> f-spot seems less good for just quickly browsing through a directory of images (on a throwaway basis) than gthumb is
[01:19] <Burgundavia> Kamion: that is what eog is for
[01:19] <Kamion> Riddell: nope
[01:19] <Keybuk> Kamion: right, but that's what nautilus and/or eog are for
[01:19] <tseng> eog can do what gthumb can in terms of browsing
[01:20] <tseng> (and f-spot could with a few hours of hacking)
[01:20] <Burgundavia> tseng: it would be glorious of f-spot could have a simple/fast browse mode
[01:20] <tseng> Burgundavia: its "faster" than eog according to larry
[01:20] <Kamion> hmm, true, eog is ok
[01:21] <tseng> Burgundavia: it just doesnt switch through the directory easily
[01:21] <Keybuk> f-spot is impressively fast, I must admit
[01:21] <Keybuk> it's one of the first things that struck me about it
[01:21] <tseng> Keybuk: it handles large libraries significantly better than iphoto
[01:21] <Burgundavia> tseng: yes
[01:22] <tseng> Keybuk: which is something we can pimp the hell out of if someone does a scientific write up
[01:22] <tseng> miguel has only done wallclock
[01:23] <tseng> if someone has some fancy european beer larry is into or something...
[01:23] <tseng> bribe away
[01:25] <tseng> eog is also part of "gnome", i am not sure how much that will anger upstream if we remove it
[01:25] <tseng> jdub: ?
[01:26] <jdub> tseng: nowt i suspect, it's not really an integration target
[01:27] <jdub> more of a user acceptance issue, i think
[01:27] <tseng> well the biggest complaint is the browsing
[01:27] <tseng> probably by a vocal minority
[01:27] <bddebian> Heya tseng
[01:27] <tseng> I imagine there is another group of users that don't know or care what eog is
[01:28] <tseng> and that it can browse directories like that
[01:28] <tseng> hello, Burgundavia
[01:28] <tseng> and bddebian ...
[01:28] <bddebian> heh
[01:34] <Burgundavia> users need a fast way of browsing pictures
[01:34] <Burgundavia> how they do that is totally immaterial to 95%
[01:34] <Kamion> jdub: same question (angering upstream) for ekiga
[01:34] <Burgundavia> I disagree with removing eog because fspot viewer mode isn't up to snuff yet
[01:34] <bddebian> Wow everybody's here :-)
[01:36] <Burgundavia> Kamion: one of the key reason I would support keeping ekiga in the desktop is to make people aware of the alternatives to skype
[01:37] <Burgundavia> reasons, rather
[01:37] <tseng> Burgundavia: MS NetChat or whatever it is
[01:37] <Burgundavia> that too
[01:37] <tseng> I never saw anyone use it.
[01:38] <jdub> Kamion: want to remove it for space reasons, or...?
[01:38] <Kamion> jdub: space, maybe
[01:39] <Kamion> there are other candidates of course, there always are, but it's one of the ones that's been suggested on a less-widely-used basis
[01:39] <Kamion> although I see it was one of the top new features listed for GNOME 2.14
[01:40] <Kamion> which is of course interesting since we've been shipping gnomemeeting/ekiga since warty ;)
[01:40] <Burgundavia> Kamion: what came in 2.14 was SIP support
[01:41] <jdub> Kamion: maybe wait to remove ekiga until the telepathy stack is ready to rock
[01:41] <jdub> Kamion: it is a useful feature to be able to talk about
[01:41] <Kamion> Burgundavia: oh, good point, I misread
[01:41] <Kamion> will telepathy be any smaller? :)
[01:41] <jdub> Kamion: i don't think "angering upstream" is going to be much of a factor though
[01:41] <tseng> jdub: google talk would be alot more wideless useful than an arbitrary sip server
[01:41] <tseng> jdub: (i think)
[01:41] <tseng> wideley
[01:41] <Kamion> agreed on useful headline feature - although I do think that folks shouldn't limit themselves to talking about what's installed by default
[01:41] <tseng> widely
[01:41] <jdub> Kamion: yeah, probably (though it brings in a bunch of libs)
[01:42] <jdub> Kamion: yeah, same FirstAgainstTheWall problem with GIMP
[01:42] <Kamion> mm, that's not one I'm keen to do either
[01:43] <Keybuk> we could increase to 800MB CDs?
[01:43] <Kamion> I wish we had a better option for fonts, but desupporting non-ISO-8859-* speakers without network connections doesn't make me a happy bunny
[01:43] <Kamion> Keybuk: ... or not
[01:43] <Keybuk> Kamion: any particular reason why not?
[01:43] <Kamion> Keybuk: you can field ALL the support requests
[01:43] <Keybuk> it's edgy, half the crap won't run without modern hardware, so you're likely to have a CD writer made in the last decade
[01:44] <Kamion> because, unlike the last time we increased the CD size we demanded, there is not a clear majority of media out there capable of 800MB
[01:44] <jdub> Kamion: perhaps we could think about removing non-ttf 100dpi/75dpi fonts...
[01:44] <tseng> Keybuk: people have spools of 750mb cds sitting around
[01:44] <Keybuk> meh, that's trye I guess
[01:44] <Kamion> come on, most media one buys in the shop isn't 800MB
[01:44] <tseng> that they expect to use
[01:44] <Keybuk> 750MB is the more prevalent media
[01:44] <Keybuk> forgot about that
[01:44] <Kamion> and I'll get all the complaints. I already got complaints about the dapper.0 powerpc CD being too big to burn with some software/media, and that was 703MB or something
[01:45] <Kamion> jdub: hmm, doesn't sound popular with the older-Unix crowd, and they'd blog about it
[01:46] <jdub> Kamion: how much of our software realistically requires it these days?
[01:46] <Kamion> as far as fonts go, ttf-* are the heavyweight ones
[01:46] <Keybuk> this is a non-win discussion
[01:46] <jdub> hrm, i guess there's a bunch of tcl/tk things, and old school X stuff
[01:46] <Keybuk> we're at the point where we can't justify removing much at all
[01:46] <Kamion> jdub: if you dislike gnome-terminal and like fast terminals :-), you want old X fonts
[01:47] <jdub> Kamion: not scalable old X fonts
[01:47] <jdub> you can totally remove gimp
[01:47] <Kamion> jdub: ttf-scalable is 344KB
[01:47] <Kamion> er, I mean xfonts-scalable
[01:47] <desrt> i guess example content was (literally) a no-go?
[01:47] <jdub> g-a-i is at a point where removing things like gimp is viable
[01:47] <Kamion> desrt: I've sent mail about it
[01:48] <Kamion> gimp also sounds like a negative blog publicity attractor
[01:48] <Kamion> removing it, that is
[01:49] <desrt> btw guys: for what it's worth i hear a lot of people talk about how awesome it is that ubuntu still fits on one CD
[01:49] <jdub> Kamion: not sure you should be ruled by negative blog publicity
[01:49] <Kamion> jdub: not ruled by it, but PR is worth considering
[01:49] <Keybuk> desrt: it doesn't fit :)  the CD is a very difficultly laced corset :p
[01:49] <Kamion> desrt: that's certainly not something we plan to change in the near future
[01:49] <jdub> with usefully published rationale people can point to, i think removing gimp is entirely understandable
[01:49] <bddebian> Keybuk: :-)
[01:50] <Kamion> jdub: you always wanted to get rid of it, though :)
[01:50] <Kamion> there are others more attached to it
[01:50] <jdub> (clearly stating the rationale and fact that it can be installed very easily from supported set)
[01:50] <Kamion> I'm not saying no, just saying I put it further away from the wall than you do
[01:50] <jdub> Kamion: well, no, i always had it on my list of things that could be removed at some point in the future because they were inessential
[01:51] <Burgundavia> fwiw: fspot now doing redeye and cropping removes 90% of the raison-de-etre of gimp installed by defeault
[01:51] <jdub> if we had "gimp elements" that should totally go on the cd :-)
[01:51] <Kamion> I'm a little concerned that we've been letting printing stuff grow without end because too few developers understand it
[01:52] <Kamion> gimp elements?
[01:52] <jdub> Kamion: riffing on "photoshop elements" (the cut down easy version of it)
[01:52] <Burgundavia> Kamion: photoshop elements is a cutedown version of photoshop that has been flying off the shelves
[01:52] <Kamion> ah
[01:52] <desrt> jdub; removing gimp is likely to go over better, too, than removing, say, abiword
[01:53] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Yes
[01:53] <jdub> desrt: abiword isn't on the CD (or are you making a hub joke?)
[01:53] <Burgundavia> I can the blog post now "Ubuntu sabatoges the GIMP"
[01:53] <desrt> jdub; not a hub joke.  abiword developer persecution complex joke.
[01:53] <Burgundavia> mjg59: thanks
[01:53] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Let me know if it causes any problems - I believe it to be safe now
[01:53] <desrt> jdub; abiword got removed from some fedora cd a while back and planet was ablaze
[01:53] <jdub> desrt: you could replace all of those big words with "hub" and still be utterly accurate :)
[01:54] <desrt> jdub; it's not just hub :)
[01:54] <jdub> wow, x-lite just got vastly less sucky
[01:55] <desrt> it might not be the debian way... but seriously... no real human uses that directory
[01:55] <bddebian> How about a DSU? (Damn Small Ubuntu) to fit on a USB Stick :-)
[01:55] <maswan> bddebian: just get a 1-gig USB stick. ;)
[01:56] <bddebian> maswan: Have you seen DSL?
[01:56] <maswan> bddebian: I think I've heard of it
[01:56] <maswan> bddebian: no personal experience with DSL though
[01:56] <bddebian> It's actually quite cool
[01:57] <Kamion> desrt: they do when they're pointed at it
[01:57] <Kamion> I'm not interested in removing documentation. seriously.
[01:57] <desrt> /usr/share/doc isn't documentation
[01:58] <Kamion> I'm especially not interested in removing documentation when it would take hundreds of uploads to implement
[01:58] <Kamion> rubbish
[01:58] <desrt> the hundreds of uploads thing is a good argument
[01:58] <Kamion> and we're not removing changelogs. no way. too useful for us
[01:58] <desrt> the internet is a one-to-one function that maps version numbers to changelogs
[01:58] <Kamion> hundreds of uploads> that's just for the CD
[01:58] <bddebian> jdub: :-)
[01:58] <Kamion> it must be nice for you to have internet everywhere you go, even when you're travelling
[01:59] <desrt> Kamion; only costs $50/mo too
[01:59] <Kamion> perhaps you could share your technology
[01:59] <Kamion> or your money
[01:59] <bddebian> heh
[02:11] <bddebian> Sheesh
[02:13] <desrt> welcome, everyone, to freenode
[02:13] <desrt> the OFFICIAL network of the ubuntu project
[02:13] <desrt> enjoy your stay
[02:13] <desrt> (it may be short)
[02:14] <Burgundavia> desrt: be nice
[02:14] <Keybuk> Kamion: not to mention licence zealots
[02:15] <desrt> oh right.  the GPL has some sort of a clause about that
[02:15] <Keybuk> oh good
[02:15] <Keybuk> "a replacement ircd server tree"
[02:15] <Keybuk> how nih
[02:16] <desrt> Keybuk; hm?
[02:16] <lifeless> Keybuk: I would have thought you would support that :)
[02:16] <Keybuk> lilospam
[02:16] <desrt> oh.  i finally ignored lilo!*@*
[02:17] <exobuzz> the internet was fine in 1995
[02:17] <exobuzz> it all worked
[02:18] <Keybuk> August 95 ?
[02:18] <Burgundavia> exobuzz: for about 20k people
[02:18] <exobuzz> well around that time and before.
[02:18] <exobuzz> :-)
[02:18] <exobuzz> and i dont ever remember getting a popup, or even adverts ont he www
[02:18] <desrt> if y'all think this is bad you should have been on efnet in the late 90s
[02:18] <exobuzz> just real information
[02:18] <desrt> now _that_ was a party
[02:18] <exobuzz> aah the irc war period ?
[02:18] <desrt> oh yes
[02:18] <exobuzz> check my clone bots. etc etc
[02:18] <lifeless> man, undernet
[02:19] <desrt> lilo is merely incompetent.  back then you had people actively trying to take down irc servers
[02:19] <bddebian> Heya lifeless
[02:19] <tseng> desrt: that was awful
[02:19] <maswan> desrt: we moved our local channel from ircnet to gimpnet back then
[02:19] <exobuzz> gimpnet.. thats a wonderful name ..
[02:19] <desrt> and efnet had like 50x the population of (then) openprojects
[02:19] <maswan> ah, freenode is starting to get a resonably high user count these days though
[02:20] <exobuzz> you know, the gimp is very nice piece of software, but it probably should rename if it wants to be taken serously in the business world.. or maybe it doesnt
[02:20] <desrt> even now it's 10x... efnet is very peaceful by comparison :)
[02:20] <Keybuk> exobuzz: it is being renamed
[02:20] <exobuzz> it is ? what to ?
[02:20] <Keybuk> it'll now be the sadomasochistic submissive personality with a distinct rubber fetish
[02:20] <Keybuk> (prizes to anyone who can backronym *that*)
[02:21] <maswan> you want a backronym to the entire thing, or just to tsspwadrf?
[02:21] <desrt> sounds a bit like sabdfl
[02:22] <maswan> desrt: btw, ircnet is nice and quiet these days too
[02:22] <desrt> SAdo suB with Distinct Fetish....
[02:22] <welshbyte> sudo apt-get install sadsubpwidruft
[02:22] <desrt> maswan; i think they learned a lot of leasons from the irc wars about how to make a network withstand anything
[02:22] <maswan> desrt: yup
[02:23] <desrt> maswan; washed-up efnet server admins are probably really good people to have on staff :)
[02:23] <maswan> desrt: still, the kiddies that wield 10+ GBit/s packeting still can make an impact
[02:23] <Keybuk> desrt: they're too washed up
[02:24] <desrt> maswan; you can only do so much....
[02:24] <exobuzz> well. if it wasnt for all the bloody remote controlled pc's
[02:24] <desrt> "bill gates made efnet suck!"
[02:24] <exobuzz> and that's partly microsofts fault for not addressing security earlier on
[02:24] <desrt> hah.  yup.
[02:25] <maswan> desrt: I remember back when the current generation of our nren was new, they made a point of "hey, we took 1.5Gbit/s of DDoS and we delivered the packets. poor server, but the network didn't go down."
[02:25] <exobuzz> its also partly the fault of people like "my mum" who open up emails with attachments which advertise "pretty screensaver"
[02:25] <desrt> "poor server" is a funny concept :)
[02:25] <maswan> exobuzz: again reminding us why it would have been useful to separate "display" and "execute". :/
[02:26] <desrt> i mean... if you really think about it you'll find it quite amusing :)
[02:26] <exobuzz> maswan: yeh
[02:26] <Keybuk> so, as well as upstart, I'm going to write a daemon that you install to make your machine run faster
[02:26] <desrt> jdub; welcome back.
[02:26] <Keybuk> it'll shave 5s or so off the boot process, make all apps start faster and use less memory
[02:26] <Keybuk> I shall call it "placebo"
[02:26] <desrt> Keybuk; can't we just have people install gentoo for that?
[02:26] <desrt> Keybuk; i hear it feels a lot faster
[02:27] <maswan> oh, call it "placeboo"
[02:27] <exobuzz> of course it feels faster when you have been waiting 4 days for something to compile!
[02:27] <exobuzz> :)
[02:27] <HrdwrBoB> placebo -funroll-loops
[02:27] <desrt> at that point it's practically your baby.  it's only natural to feel proud :)
[02:27] <exobuzz> and with gentoo you have the added benefit of a source package installing everything + teh kitchen sink onto your system, so you must upgrade to newer faster hd's all the time
[02:29] <Keybuk> I just realised why upstart "Boots Faster"
[02:29] <desrt> woh.  easy there.
[02:29] <Keybuk> it doesn't start usplash
[02:30] <sladen> Keybuk: so what speed we up to at the moment?
[02:30] <desrt> there was something on planet a few days ago about how having a usplash running in non-splash mode slows down the boot
[02:30] <tseng> desrt: actually, when warty came out, the entire gentoo fanboydom wet itself
[02:30] <tseng> desrt: over LDFLAGS
[02:30] <tseng> linker optimization
[02:30] <Keybuk> sladen: 44s
[02:30] <Keybuk> .4
[02:31] <jdub> and that's why we have tseng!
[02:31] <desrt> tseng; i'm afraid i don't understand
[02:33] <jdub> interesting, Amazon EC2 uses Xen
[02:34] <jdub> they're planning to have ubuntu images fairly soon, too
[02:34] <lifeless> EC2?
[02:34] <jsgotangco> EC2?
[02:34] <lifeless> jdub: are you going to the redhat thing tomorrow ?
[02:35] <jdub> lifeless: massive virtualised 'on demand' computing cluster
[02:35] <jdub> lifeless: wasn't planning to (they didn't get back to me about speaking)
[02:36] <jdub> http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sc_fe_l_2/103-8136015-6811048?ie=UTF8&node=201590011&no=3435361&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA
[02:36] <desrt> crap
[02:36] <desrt> dad needs to go to hospital.  amulence is here
[02:36] <desrt> bbl.
[02:36] <jdub> "amazon elastic compute cloud"
[02:36] <lifeless> rocking
[02:36] <jdub> desrt: ! good luck
[02:36] <jsgotangco> nice name
[02:36] <lifeless> desrt: goodluck!
[02:36] <jdub> Pay only for what you use.
[02:36] <jdub> $0.10 per instance-hour consumed (or part of an hour consumed).
[02:36] <jdub> $0.20 per GB of data transferred outside of Amazon (i.e., Internet traffic).
[02:36] <jdub> $0.15 per GB-Month of Amazon S3 storage used for your images (charged by Amazon S3).
[02:36] <jdub>
[02:37] <lifeless> jdub: ok, wondering if its worth dropping in to see what their message is
[02:37] <jdub> you use S3 for storage (transfer internally is free)
[02:39] <jdub> lifeless: want to go?
[02:40] <lifeless> jdub: kinda :). I think someone should keep an eye on them ;)
[02:43] <jdub> my edgy server upgrade was pretty boring, btw
[02:43] <jdub> i babied the upgrade a bit
[02:43] <jdub> but there were no spectacular breakages or anything
[02:44] <jdub> though i did get to swap in my new SATA card
[02:49] <zul_> hmmm...debian has ported update-grub to grun2
[02:49] <zul_> grub2 even
[02:50] <jdub> zul: now *that's* edgy!
[02:50] <zul> i guess it is :)
[02:52] <Burgundavia> how complete is grub2?
[02:54] <zul> its still got a way to go ihmo
[02:54] <zul> heh...maybe i should go to bed
[02:56] <zul> its usable though
[03:13] <Burgundavia> zul: hasn't it been in development for years?
[03:13] <zul> apparently
[03:25] <robertj> there seems to be a phenomena in which items at either tail of the development time bell-curve are very unstable
[03:38] <Kaleo> does anybody know if the existence of the file /var/lock/acpisleep is checked at any point in the acpi scripts ?
[03:39] <bluefoxicy> I am so frigging lazy.
[03:40] <bddebian> That's nice
[03:42] <bluefoxicy> seriously, I have a one-file C project I'm messing with
[03:42] <bluefoxicy> I wrote the C file such that ./malloc.c compiles it.
[03:44] <zul> thats nice
[04:05] <exobuzz> you will find that a malloc funciton has already been written
[04:05] <bddebian> heh
[04:05] <exobuzz> so you cant be that lazy
[04:05] <exobuzz> writing your own
[04:05] <exobuzz> :)
[04:06] <exobuzz> aaah my new code. finally finished. its a masterpiece.... 4 days hard work.. ./printf.c .. no. wait dont't tell me. aaargh!!
[04:09] <exobuzz> what about alias @="make" or something
[04:09] <exobuzz> :)
[04:10] <lastnode> imbrandon_, you around, mate?
[04:13] <bddebian> haha
[04:50] <elkjaer> I do not know who to direct this to.. The daily build iso that can be downloaded from the ubuntu website is too big to fit on a 700 MB cd-rom. The latest is 724 MB.
[04:50] <infinity> elkjaer: Yeah, dailies go oversized sometimes.  Obviously, we'll fix that before we do another test release.
[04:51] <elkjaer> cool.. thanx
[04:56] <infinity> Instinct. :)
[04:57] <infinity> When people greet me on IRC, I run.  I'm sure it seems more rational in my head.
[04:57] <Hobbsee> infinity: ahhh....i wasnt going to request *that* many things off you :P
[04:57] <Hobbsee> in fact, i dotn think i was going to request anything at all
[04:57] <bddebian> HI infinity! :-)
[04:58] <infinity> In that case, you're my new best friend. :)
[04:59] <Hobbsee> infinity: hehe, right...
[04:59] <Hobbsee> infinity: now it's my turn to hide?
[05:00] <infinity> Hobbsee: Oh, don't worry, I'm not clingy. :)
[05:00] <infinity> Much...
[05:00] <Hobbsee> infinity: hehe, right
[05:00] <Hobbsee> much
[05:40] <Hobbsee> infinity: did you want to give back wine?  seems that it broke due to udev
[05:40] <Hobbsee> infinity: which seems fixed
[05:49] <lastnode> infinity, might i bug you a little now
[06:50] <desrt> arf
[06:51] <desrt> destroy vs. dispose vs. finalize
[06:51] <desrt> how perplexing!
[07:52] <grexk> -fno-stack-protector on xen-source-2.6.16 fails to compile...
[08:12] <dholbach> good morning
[09:39] <tepsipakki> keybuk: upstart boots fine here :)
[09:46] <doko> ajmitch: ping
[11:04] <slomo> Kamion: ping?
[11:05] <Kamion> slomo: hi (but not working today)
[11:06] <Kamion> I'm just doing a bit of Debian work, then I'll be off again
[11:07] <slomo> Kamion: np :) i only had a small question... regarding the dbus uvf exception as mdz is away this week afaik. do you have an oppinion on this? :)
[11:07] <Kamion> is it OK if I read over it tomorrow?
[11:08] <slomo> sure, thanks :)
[11:13] <carlos> Kamion: Is there a new version of .po and .pot files for Debian Installer that should be imported into Rosetta? (either dapper or edgy?)
[11:13] <carlos> Riddell: hi, around?
[11:22] <lucas> are there plans to enable KPROBE in the edgy default kernel ? fedora core enables it
[11:27] <sivang> morning
[11:28] <imbrandon> moins sivang
[11:30] <Kamion> carlos: I've set my build system to edgy, so I'll have new versions for that in a couple of hours
[11:30] <carlos> Kamion: ok
[11:30] <carlos> Kamion: do you want to do a new upload for Dapper?
[11:30] <Kamion> carlos: not particularly
[11:30] <carlos> ok
[11:31] <carlos> Kamion: could you send us<EMAIL_ADDRESS>the list of packages that we should block for Edgy ?
[11:31] <carlos> or is it the same list as Dapper?
[11:31] <Kamion> I might suck in new translations from Rosetta at the next point release, but there's no need for new strings
[11:31] <Kamion> carlos: at the moment it appears to be the same
[11:31] <carlos> ok
[11:32] <carlos> I will prepare a wiki page with such list so we can double check that we didn't miss anything and we can update it later when needed.
[11:34] <carlos> Kamion: btw, if we do an upload after you do 'suck' translations from Rosetta for a new debian installer release, the statistics are updated so people would know that their translations are being used. It's just an informative UI change.
[11:35] <Kamion> carlos: so do you want me to generate files for dapper+dapper-updates first?
[11:36] <Kamion> carlos: ok, look, I'm off work today, so I'll generate dapper+dapper-updates tomorrow and ping you
[11:36] <Kamion> I've disabled the cron job so it won't build for edgy today
[11:36] <carlos> Kamion: that would be good
[11:36] <carlos> thanks
[11:36] <Kamion> np
[11:44] <AndrewLee> sladen: Hi, I updated bug 57081, but it seems no progress still.
[11:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 57081 in scim-chewing "scim-chewing cannot enter any Chinese character" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/57081
[11:45] <Riddell> carlos: hi
[11:45] <Spads> http://xkcd.com/c149.html <-- ha ha sudo
[11:45] <carlos> Riddell: hi, about KDE's .desktop translations
[11:46] <carlos> Riddell: just to remind me how it works, I guess we should import the specific .pot files with exactly the same filename you gave them as the translation domain and include them as part of the language packs, right?
[11:46] <Riddell> carlos: yes please
[11:47] <carlos> ok
[11:48] <ogra> Kamion, did anything else apart from the sysv-rc dependency change in openssh with your last upload ? seems the -S option doesnt create a socket anymore for me in ltsp
[11:49] <Spads> oolite is kind of confusing, because the police are purple and I always thought purple meant pirates
[11:49] <Spads> er, mcm
[11:50] <AndrewLee> sladen: How to change the im-switch config file of scim-chewing package is still in question, who do you recommend to answer that?
[11:58] <ogra> Kamion,  ssh localhost -S /tmp/olis-ssh-socket -vvv gains me a
[11:58] <ogra> debug1: Control socket "/tmp/olis-ssh-socket" does not exist
[12:12] <Kamion> ogra: no
[12:15] <Kamion> ogra: the message you quote is not a fatal error, and will happen if there isn't an existing master ssh client
[12:15] <Kamion> on that socket
[12:15] <dholbach> please let poor Kamion go back to his free day :)
[12:15] <ogra> Kamion, hmm, it worked until the recent update
[12:16] <Kamion> ogra: you need to use -M to make ssh be a master
[12:16] <ogra> oh, damned, i missed he had a free day ...
[12:16] <Kamion> ogra: ssh hasn't changed in that respect, I can assure you
[12:16] <ogra> Kamion, sorry, go back relaxing and enjoy ... !
[12:17] <Kamion> ogra: I suggest you use -o 'ControlMaster auto'
[12:17] <ogra> ok
[12:17] <Kamion> then it'll automatically create a socket if there isn't one already
[12:19] <Kamion> dholbach: just before I go back to house-cleaning (joy), do you know much about printing? If so, could you have a look at the suggestion on ubuntu-devel@ to get rid of foomatic-filters-ppds from desktop and replace it with a symlink?
[12:20] <Kamion> the suggestion was to put the symlink in cupsys, although I think perhaps it belongs in foomatic-db-engine instead - not sure
[12:21] <dholbach> Kamion: atm I don't have a printer here to test at all. doko and pitti always looked into printing.
[12:21] <Kamion> ah, ok
[12:21] <Kamion> doko: if you're around this week ... ^--
[12:21] <ogra> argh ... /tmp wasnt wiretable in my ltsp client ... it wasnt ssh's faut at all ... silly me ...
[12:21] <ogra> *fault
[12:22] <ogra> (i called it with -M in ldm btw)
[12:22] <ogra> (missed that while testing with localhost)
[12:22] <Kamion> if nobody's looked at it when I come back tomorrow, I'll probably Just Do It; the 11MB saving would be well worth it
[12:24] <doko> Kamion, dholbach: in the past, gnome-cups-manager did use that kind of information. I'm pretty sure that it's still needed; g-c-m cannot use the xml database AFAIK
[12:25] <Kamion> XML database? the change as I understand it is to generate the PPDs on the fly using foomatic-db-engine rather than having them statically on the filesystem
[12:25] <LarstiQ> ogra: why not ~/.ssh/host-port-user ?
[12:28] <ogra> LarstiQ, because ter is no ~/ on ltsp clients ;)
[12:29] <LarstiQ> ogra: valid reason I guess ;)
[12:29] <ogra> *there
[12:29] <ogra> yep :)
[12:51] <gnomefreak> the gnome-panel having to be refreshed before newly installed apps show up is a feature right?
[12:51] <seb128> gnomefreak: what do you mean? how do you refresh the panel?
[12:52] <gnomefreak> seb128: log out and back in or killall gnome-panel
[12:52] <seb128> no
[12:52] <seb128> that would be a bug
[12:52] <seb128> if you speak about the menu
[12:52] <gnomefreak> since breezy
[12:52] <seb128> works fine for me and lot of other users too
[12:52] <seb128> I think there is some bug for .desktop not installed to the standard location
[12:52] <gnomefreak> you install an app than you have to refresh gnome panel or menu before it shows up
[12:53] <seb128> but monitor should just work
[12:53] <seb128> no
[12:53] <gnomefreak> hmmm
[12:53] <seb128> that would be a monitor bug on your box
[12:53] <seb128> monitoring bug
[12:53] <seb128> what package is that?
[12:53] <ogra> hmm, why has still nobody added a gconf key for the fading to gnome-session ...
[12:53] <gnomefreak> any package
[12:53] <gnomefreak> seb128: give me a sec and i will give you a bug number
[12:54] <seb128> mvo: there was the "TryExec=" being an issue if .desktop is installed before the binary
[12:54] <mvo> seb128: yes
[12:54] <seb128> mvo: didn't you workaround that one?
[12:54] <seb128> gnomefreak: please don't open a new bug, we already have some for that
[12:54] <mvo> seb128: I can't remember TBH, the problem was tricky to solve, I talked with vuntz about possible strategies
[12:54] <gnomefreak> i didnt
[12:55] <gnomefreak> im commenting on one someone else opened
[12:55] <gnomefreak> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/57956
[12:55] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 57956 in Ubuntu "Software package installed, but menu not updated until next X session" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]
[12:56] <gnomefreak> i retrack last statment i have seen it since hoary so i figured it was normal
[12:56] <seb128> mvo: right, I think you workarounded the package by dropping the TryExec in fact
[12:56] <seb128> gnomefreak: ok, will comment later
[12:56] <gnomefreak> ty
[12:57] <seb128> np
[12:59] <mvo> :)
[01:00] <ogra> seb128, gnome-sessions logout.c has a function:
[01:00] <ogra> 488   if (!a11y_enabled)
[01:00] <ogra> 489     {
[01:00] <ogra> 490       XGrabServer (GDK_DISPLAY ());
[01:00] <ogra> 491       gsm_foreach_screen (fadeout_screen);
[01:00] <ogra> 492     }
[01:00] <seb128> yep
[01:01] <ogra> does that mean i have a key i could set for the fading not to happen ?
[01:01] <seb128> yeah, activate a11y
[01:01] <seb128> but we can patch it to have a "or LTSP set" case
[01:01] <ogra> ok ... so i can add a && getenv(LTSP_CLIENT) there :)
[01:01] <ogra> thanks
[01:01] <seb128> I've to go for lunch, bbl
[01:01] <seb128> yeah, sure
[01:02] <seb128> feel free to do the change :)
[01:02] <ogra> i will, thanks for the help, bon appetite :)
[01:09] <seb128> ogra: you probably want use "||" and not "&&" for that
[01:11] <ogra> yep
[01:11] <ogra> indeed
[01:11] <ogra> Keybuk, morning
[01:12] <ogra> Keybuk, does upstart come with an opportunity to blacklist services ? i just remembered i forgot to ask you about that ...
[01:15] <Keybuk> "blacklist services" ?
[01:15] <ogra> yes
[01:15] <Keybuk> define.
[01:15] <ogra> as i do in ltsp for the services that got run by the ltsp-client initscript
[01:16] <ogra> if i create the chroot i remove a whole lot of stuff from rc2.d
[01:16] <ogra> (save memory make sure stuff i dont need isnt run at all etc)
[01:18] <Keybuk> right
[01:18] <Keybuk> so you can do that two ways with upstart
[01:18] <Keybuk> 1) rm /etc/event.d/....
[01:18] <Keybuk> 2) vi /etc/event.d/... and take out "on startup"
[01:18] <ogra> ok, but if i rm it might cause trouble with other services that depend on that one i guess ...
[01:19] <Keybuk> upstart doesn't do dependencies, remember
[01:19] <ogra> i.e. i never use the networking startup script ... because i set up the interfaces statically from the client initscript
[01:20] <ogra> so if a script has on defaultroute, it will work ... but not if it depends on "networking" to have finished
[01:20] <ogra> well, you kind of have dependencys if you want, no ?
[01:21] <Keybuk> no, just events
[01:21] <ogra> even though it might be a event thats the dependency :)
[01:21] <ogra> *an
[01:21] <ogra> "on avahi running" is a dependency ...
[01:22] <Keybuk> you can always change them
[01:22] <ogra> well, i wouldnt like to change a ton of initscripts ...
[01:23] <Keybuk> I haven't yet fully figured it out
[01:23] <Keybuk> suggestions welcome
[01:23] <ogra> i will try with rm and see how it breaks :) assuming we'll get upstart as default in edgy
[01:24] <ogra> s/how/how and if/ :)
[01:25] <Keybuk> I was thinking of slipping it in before knot freeze;)
[01:25] <ogra> knot2 ?
[01:26] <Keybuk> just need to write shutdown now
[01:26] <ogra> hmm ... k ...
[01:42] <Lure> Keybuk: is UUID in /etc/fstab not supported for LVM volumes yet or should I report a bug?
[01:43] <_ion> lure: Well, i don't think UUIDs are really necessary with LVM.
[01:43] <_ion> lure: The device names will be static no matter in which bus the physical disk is.
[01:43] <Lure> _ion: true, but not sure what is the plan for edgy
[01:44] <Keybuk> Lure: we don't convert LVM volume names to UUIDs
[01:44] <Keybuk> doesn't seem to be any point
[01:45] <Lure> Keybuk: ok, I just started to use my LV home in Edgy dual boot and just wanted to know what is the-right-thing
[01:45] <Keybuk> "don't use LVM in the first place"

[01:46] <HrdwrBoB> what happens if you have two LVs with the same name (f.e. you put another ubuntu installs disk in a pc with ubuntu already on it
[01:46] <HrdwrBoB> (I haven't yet needed to do that, and it may well be out of scope)
[01:47] <Keybuk> HrdwrBoB: you discover that using LVM was a mistake
[01:47] <Keybuk> systems
[01:47] <HrdwrBoB> haha
[01:47] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:47] <Hobbsee> "a mistake"
[01:48] <Zdra> does someone knows why libnotify in edgy doesn't shows images from pixbuf and stock but works from URI ?!? On dapper all methods worked. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350416
[01:51] <sivang> hmm, so when I boot now I see that tty mode is all wrong, flickering like hell and rolling accross the screen being displayed in the half of the screen
[01:51] <sivang> and also, grub display flickers
[01:51] <seb128> Zdra: no
[01:51] <sivang> have my laptop gone bad already, or could the troulbes in the usplash affect grub screen as well?
[01:52] <sivang> (I also noticed instead of 60hz in the resolution preferences, I get only 50 now, I think it was 60 once)
[01:52] <Hobbsee> sivang: i've been getting weird tty's at times, just after the usplash ends
[01:54] <Zdra> seb128: can you reproduce the bug too ? or I'm alone ?
[01:55] <seb128> Zdra: how do I try?
[01:55] <Zdra> seb128: run the unit test in libnotify/tests/test-image :-)
[01:56] <Zdra> or activate notification in xchat-gnome
[01:56] <seb128> xchat-gnome works fine
[01:56] <seb128> getting libnotify source
[01:56] <Zdra> seb128: you have image ?
[01:56] <seb128> what image?
[01:56] <seb128> let me build libnotify
[01:56] <Zdra> the x-g's icon in notify bubbles
[01:57] <seb128> dunno
[01:57] <zyga> hi
[01:57] <seb128> Hi zyga
[01:57] <zyga> Keybuk: ping
[01:57] <seb128> Zdra: what I look is the text to those bubbles, I would have to pay attention for the icon next time I have one :p
[01:58] <seb128> Zdra: nop, no icon
[01:58] <Zdra> seb128: in libnotify's code I see it needs dbus >= 0.60
[01:58] <Zdra> but it should be ok for edgy
[01:58] <seb128> Zdra: configure should force that then
[01:59] <seb128> Zdra: edgy had 0.62
[01:59] <seb128> has 0.62
[01:59] <Zdra> #if CHECK_DBUS_VERSION(0, 60)
[02:09] <seb128> rodarvus: around? is there anything special to get aiglx used? is it supposed to work with a radeon card using the standard ati driver for xorg?
[02:09] <rodarvus> if your ati board supports DRI yes, this is the case
[02:10] <rodarvus> seb128, "glxinfo | grep rendering" shoult tell you
[02:10] <seb128> $ glxinfo | grep rendering
[02:10] <seb128> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
[02:10] <seb128> direct rendering: Yes
[02:10] <seb128> when running compiz I get a "compiz.real: GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap is missing"
[02:11] <rodarvus> mjg59 uploaded a xorg-server with compositing enabled by defult this weekend, so if your board supports it, it should be working now
[02:11] <seb128> my edgy is uptodate and I've no fglrx installed
[02:11] <rodarvus> hmm, I'm getting the same error here. seems to be a recent bug
[02:11] <seb128> BTW fglrx needs to be updated for xorg 7.1
[02:11] <rodarvus> I'll have to trigger it
[02:11] <seb128> ok
[02:11] <Keybuk> zyga: hello
[02:12] <rodarvus> seb128, infinity will do the update of fglrx (he's the only one that knows where the .tar.gz for fglrx comes from :) )
[02:12] <seb128> rodarvus: ok, cool. You commented on a bug some weeks ago saying that fglrx should be updated really soon so I was wondering about it
[02:13] <seb128> rodarvus: let me know if you figure something about the "GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap is missing"
[02:13] <rodarvus> indeed, this update is due for a few weeks already, need to ping him again to check if he'll be able to do it
[02:13] <rodarvus> seb128, sure, I'll take a look at it later today
[02:13] <seb128> thank you
[02:13] <rodarvus> no, thank YOU :)
[02:13] <exobuzz> seb128: thats nto supported in the ati driver!
[02:14] <seb128> exobuzz: fglrx or ati?
[02:14] <exobuzz> fglrx
[02:14] <seb128> exobuzz: I'm using ati
[02:14] <exobuzz> ddint think the ati ones had 3d at all ?
[02:14] <exobuzz> only 2d
[02:14] <rodarvus> seb128: now whats really interesting is that this hook *is* supported by current Mesa
[02:14] <rodarvus> ("glxinfo | grep GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap" to check)
[02:15] <rodarvus> I wonder why compiz believes it is not.
[02:15] <seb128> $ glxinfo | grep GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap
[02:15] <seb128> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
[02:15] <seb128>     GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_OML_swap_method,
[02:15] <seb128>     GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap
[02:15] <zyga> mvo: ping
[02:15] <LarstiQ> exobuzz: ati has 3d fine for a couple of chips
[02:15] <exobuzz> OH
[02:15] <mvo> hello zyga
[02:16] <mjr> ati actually calls the radeon driver for radeon chips, but yeah, the free dri driver does do 3d pretty fine for <=9250 (experimentally for <=x850)
[02:16] <exobuzz> the ati driver doesnt turn the backlight on on my laptop without forcing it to think there is an external monitor..
[02:16] <exobuzz> :/
[02:17] <zyga> mvo: hi, I've fixed a minor crash in cnf and I'd like to know how this (and other improvements later) can get synced again
[02:17] <tseng> exobuzz: file a bug?
[02:17] <exobuzz> tseng: there was one filed years ago about it
[02:17] <exobuzz> well. last year anyway
[02:17] <tseng> well then you know what to do
[02:18] <exobuzz> what ?
[02:18] <tseng> start commenting on the bug adding any missing info
[02:19] <mvo> zyga: if it is in your branch, I merge it and upload it. does that sound ok?
[02:19] <zyga> what is the last branch have you used?
[02:19] <zyga> s/have you/you have/
[02:20] <mvo> zyga: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/cmd-not-found--mvo/
[02:20] <mvo> zyga: just write me where to merge from (and add a changelog entry) and I will sponsor the upload
[02:21] <zyga> mvo: I branched the source available in edgy and pushed the original branch and the fix to http://suxx.pl/~zyga/command-not-found
[02:22] <zyga> I'll clean the code up today  and try to have just one, working branch that incoporates your fixes (regarding data extraction)
[02:23] <mvo> zyga: the edgy code should be identical to the branch above
[02:23] <zyga> I don't thing you can just merge with that (that is a fresh branch without any ancestry)
[02:23] <zyga> yes, that's cnf-0.0.2.tar.gz + the fix - stuff bzr chose to ignore according to .bzrignore
[02:34] <mvo> zyga: ok, thanks. if you branch is up-to-date, I don't really mind creating a new one. I will do this now
[02:35] <zyga> mvo: I don't have one branch ATM, I need to get my code cleaned up
[02:35] <mvo> ok
[02:35] <zyga> mvo: you can use your original branch and just apply the one-line-diff
[02:36] <ogra> wow, network manager gets freaky if you run a local dhcp server on the same machine :)
[02:36] <mvo> zyga: let me know when I can merge again
[02:36] <zyga> mvo: thanks, I will
[02:36] <ogra> even if that server isnt bound to the interface
[02:41] <Zdra> seb128: for the image on notify bubbles, I read libnotify and notification-daemon's code. it seems good. the daemon print a warning because it doesn't receive what is expected, seems a dbus bug
[02:41] <Zdra> in changelog I see there were a dbus bug for images in libdbus <= 0.60 and I think the bug is back on 0.62
[02:42] <seb128> Zdra: ah, might be
[02:42] <Zdra> seb128: is it planned to switch to 0.90 ?
[02:43] <seb128> Zdra: slomo has it ready I think but is waiting on an UVF exception
[02:43] <seb128> Zdra: mdz is on VAC and UK is a bank holiday today though
[02:44] <Hobbsee> what, another one?
[02:44] <Zdra> slomo: have you libdbus packages for 0.9x ? would be great like that I can check if it fixes my notify bug :-)
[02:46] <Hobbsee> tseng: that only happens once a year though.  i've seen at least 2 bank holidays in the past couple of months.
[02:46] <tseng> Labor Day is coming up in the US
[02:46] <tseng> we seem to have a few in the summer
[02:46] <Hobbsee> ah right
[02:46] <Hobbsee> hi mvo_
[02:47] <Hobbsee> tseng: and 4th of july, of course
[02:58] <mjg59> seb128: compiz --indirect-rendering
[02:59] <Zdra> seb128: I installed dapper's packages for dbus and it works now
[02:59] <ogra> mjg59, my console gets freaky with the recent usplash update ...
[02:59] <mjg59> ogra: What hardware?
[02:59] <ogra> mjg59, it starts glowing white on the edges ... ati card
[03:00] <mjg59> ogra: What hardware?
[03:00] <ogra> 01:05.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M 5955 (PCIE)
[03:00] <Zdra> seb128: so dbus 0.62 is buggy and can't send GValueArray
[03:00] <mjg59> ogra: Yes, but what hardware?
[03:00] <mjg59> The chipset is uninteresting
[03:00] <seb128> Zdra: good, now we know where the bug is, next step: the patch ;)
[03:01] <ogra> hp pavillon ze2000, amd turion, run in i386 mode
[03:01] <mjg59> Ok
[03:01] <mjg59> I'll see if I can duplicate it on the one I have here
[03:01] <mjg59> (Well, similar machine)
[03:02] <LarstiQ> ogra: hey, I have that too
[03:02] <ogra> same HW ?
[03:02] <LarstiQ> almost
[03:02] <LarstiQ> hp nx6125, amd sempron, x86
[03:03] <LarstiQ> ogra: fglrx reports a different card then lspci tho
[03:04] <ogra> i disabled fglrx sice it was broken for some time during the xorg 7.1 transition ...
[03:04] <ogra> so i'm running the ati driver
[03:07] <slomo> Zdra: i hope to get new dbus in shortly after knot2 (or with some luck even before)
[03:09] <seb128> mjg59: thank you for the option, it doesn't complain with it but it still acts like if I had no window manager, and I managed to crash xorg then
[03:10] <seb128> there is something else to do than running gnome-window-decorator and compiz?
[03:14] <rodarvus> seb128: sorry, I was offline, what option did mjg59 passed you to enable aiglx?
[03:14] <seb128> rodarvus: --indirect-rendering to compiz
[03:14] <seb128> rodarvus: that's not to enable aiglx
[03:15] <seb128> just to run compiz
[03:15] <seb128> but it doesn't work better that way
[03:15] <ogra> it should have a generic check if DRI is available and autoamtically fall back to that option :)
[03:16] <mjg59> seb128: You want --strict-binding as well for aiglx
[03:16] <seb128> mjg59: is there a place where I can read about that instead of bothering people on IRC? :)
[03:16] <ogra> the source ? :)
[03:22] <Zdra> btw, xcompmgr without any option and the free nv driver works pretty well... and that's by far faster to not redraw all windows when moving a window :-)
[03:23] <ogra> hmm
[03:23] <Zdra> but if I have a transparent window or shadow it becomes damn slow without nvidia driver
[03:26] <seb128> ah, better with compiz-plugins installed
[03:28] <HiddenWolf> seb128: will we ever see a metacity with those effects?
[03:28] <seb128> mjg59: thank you, with that package installed it works fine now
[03:29] <seb128> HiddenWolf: now that I have aiglx working I can have a look on that :p
[03:29] <mjg59> seb128: Don't the dependencies require compiz-plugins?
[03:30] <mjg59> Zdra: Yes, doing any composition effects will be slow at the moment
[03:31] <jdub> mjg59: so i didn't catch much about radeon vs. fglrx in the latest changelogs - what's the best option there?
[03:31] <jdub> are we still waiting for an fglrx with the new GLX apis?
[03:31] <mjg59> jdub: Still on the XPress 200 thing?
[03:32] <mjg59> If so, you don't have a great deal of choice
[03:32] <jdub> yeah, quebecistani craptop
[03:33] <jdub> i'm mulling getting a macbook (would love a laptop with dvi)
[03:33] <mjg59> radeon won't drive the 3D on it
[03:45] <seb128> hum, k
[03:45] <seb128> so it sort of worked smoothly once
[03:46] <seb128> and since as soon as I start compiz Xorg goes to 99% of CPU usage and moving a window takes like 5 seconds, restart the box makes no difference
[03:47] <seb128> mjg59: no, compiz-gnome "Replaces: compiz (<< 0.0.2-4ubuntu2)
[03:47] <seb128> Depends: libgnome-window-settings1 | capplets-data (<< 1:2.15.0), libgconf2-4, libgtk2.0-0, libwnck18, compiz-core (= <IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu2)"
[03:48] <seb128> and compiz-core package:
[03:48] <seb128> "Depends: libcairo2, libpng12-0, libxdamage1, libxcomposite1, libxfixes3, libxrandr2, libice6, libsm6, libstartup-notification0, libgl1-mesa, librsvg2-2
[03:48] <seb128> "
[03:48] <Anndy> any idea about mobile phone application development under linux
[03:48] <bddebian> Morning folks
[03:49] <seb128> mjg59: ah, that's because I installed compiz-gnome instead of compiz
[03:49] <mjg59> seb128: Ah
[03:50] <seb128> mjg59: what the standard options to use? running compiz without plugins gives no window decorations and nothing
[03:50] <seb128> I copied "gconf decoration wobbly fade minimize cube rotate zoom scale move resize place switcher trailfocus water bs neg" from the wiki which gives all sort of effects
[03:51] <bddebian> seb128: Hi.  So that new pygobject upload fixes my codegen problem? ;-P
[03:51] <seb128> but shouldn't the decoration by example be a "standard" one?
[03:51] <mjg59> seb128: gconf really ought to be the default, I think
[03:51] <mjg59> And then the others should be in the default gconf schema
[03:51] <seb128> mjg59: right, makes sense
[03:51] <mjg59> Except this will irritate KDE users
[03:51] <seb128> bah
[03:52] <seb128> having compiz doing nothing by default irritate everybody I would say
[03:52] <Hobbsee> true that
[03:53] <mjg59> seb128: FWIW, I believe RH are shipping compiz in preference to the composited metacity
[03:53] <mjg59> Also, composition currently degrades 3D performance and breaks Xv on most hardware
[03:53] <seb128> mjg59: I don't think we want to do that by default for edgy
[03:53] <mjg59> seb128: Indeed
[03:54] <mjg59> But I think it's worth a main inclusion report
[03:54] <mjg59> Since it all works now
[03:54] <seb128> mjg59: but xorg with aiglx and metacity built with it (that's a runtime option then) should be fine
[03:54] <mjg59> seb128: Sure
[03:56] <seb128> though I would not say "it all works now"
[03:56] <seb128> I managed to crash xorg like 5 times in 10 min by trying to run compiz
[03:56] <rodarvus> it "works" on my machine
[03:56] <rodarvus> just slow as hell
[03:56] <seb128> and it's not-usable slow now when it runs (though it was fast one)
[03:56] <seb128> I don't get why it was fast on the first try though
[03:58] <rodarvus> mjg59, btw, we were discussing enabling Composite extension by default last Thursday, and just a few hours later you uploaded xor-server with Composition enabled - talk about good timing :)
[03:59] <rodarvus> btw, there are at least two patches for xorg-server (and one for mesa) that might make sense to be applied, but I won't have much time for them, this/next week
[03:59] <rodarvus> here -> http://people.freedesktop.org/~krh/compiz-on-aiglx/
[04:05] <seb128> rodarvus: what are the patches for?
[04:07] <rodarvus> I haven't tested them, so I can't say if they work. but in theory, one fixes the 'GL_ARB_fragment_program is missing' issue, other two are supposed to just make aiglx work "better" out of the box.
[04:08] <seb128> better like faster? :)
[04:09] <mjg59> rodarvus: We've got the include inferiors one, the others ought to be good as well
[04:10] <rodarvus> there is one for copySubBuffer which sounds promissing, but I wonder if it will break 'nvidia' and 'fglrx'
[04:10] <seb128> "$ glxgears
[04:10] <seb128> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
[04:10] <seb128> *********************************WARN_ONCE*********************************
[04:10] <seb128> File radeon_mm.c function radeon_mm_alloc line 216
[04:10] <seb128> Ran out of GART memory!
[04:10] <seb128> Please consider adjusting GARTSize option.
[04:10] <seb128> ***************************************************************************
[04:10] <seb128> Error: Could not get dma buffer... exiting"
[04:10] <seb128> hum
[04:10] <seb128> rodarvus: is that known? :)
[04:11] <mjg59> seb128: Is that with the compositor running?
[04:11] <seb128> no
[04:11] <mjg59> Ah, ok
[04:11] <seb128> I've metacity --replaced it
[04:11] <seb128> it's unusably slow
[04:12] <seb128> now I'm trying to figure why it's slow, since it can be fast (it was on the first try)
[04:12] <mjg59> seb128: Yeah, removing blur makes it much, *much* faster
[04:13] <mvo_> I tried to test it today too, but I don't have working agpgart on my amd64/nforce3-250/r200 system :/
[04:36] <zyg1> bye, I'm going home
[04:39] <seb128> mjg59: right, without blur it works great
[04:39] <seb128> mjg59: so gconf by default and blur not listed would be nice ;)
[04:43] <pygi> siretart, poke?
[04:48] <pygi> sivang, poke?
[04:50] <seb128> mjg59: thank you for the help to get that working
[04:54] <mjg59> seb128: No problem
[04:55] <seb128> mjg59: do you know if there is a place with wnck patches by example to get compiz integration better?
[04:56] <mjg59> seb128: Not that I know of
[04:56] <mjg59> It does seem a touch broken
[04:56] <seb128> mjg59: things like the desktop switcher applet and the shortcuts seem to not be happy with compiz
[05:11] <mvo_> keybuk made it into the news: http://www.golem.de/0608/47429.html
[05:12] <slomo> mvo_: he was already everywhere :)
[05:12] <zul> but now in germany..:)
[05:13] <LarstiQ> is there really a markt for German news?
[05:14] <mjr> probably in Germany?
[05:15] <pygi> ivoks, meeting today?
[05:15] <ivoks> pygi: yes
[05:15] <LarstiQ> mjr: hmm, I shudder at Dutch it news, it's really bad
[05:15] <LarstiQ> mjr: perhaps .de has more competent reporters
[05:15] <_ion> Which are the sites with news about upstart? I only know about OSnews.
[05:19] <Hobbsee> _ion: planet.ubuntu.com
[05:19] <HiddenWolf> _ion: uh, I'm sure it'll get publicity when it's actually debugged, working and in main. :)
[05:37] <Simira> in which repository can I find wine?
[05:38] <gnomefreak> Simira: universe
[05:38] <Simira> thanks
[05:38] <seb128> Simira: apt-cache policy package
[05:39] <seb128> Simira: or "apt-cache madison package"
[05:39] <seb128> or apt-cache show package and look the Filename ;)
[05:56] <janimo> Kamion: hi, is it you who can get an a11y menu entry on the xubuntu desktop CD? should I file a bug on ubuntu-cdimage?
[06:06] <jdong_> mvo: ping?
[06:23] <MagnusR> xlyskom
[06:33] <mattn> hi
[06:33] <mattn> can anybody help me with a valgrind problem?
[06:34] <mattn> i always get the message: valgrind: mmap(0x80C8000, 303087616) failed in UME.
[06:34] <mattn> when trying to use the valgrind deb that comes with ubuntu
[06:35] <mattn> i'm calling via: valgrind --tool=memcheck --leak-check=yes --show-reachable=yes --num-callers=20 --track-fds=yes ./ufo run +set vid_fullscreen 0 +set vid_grabmouse 0 +set developer 1
[07:06] <ogra> Mithrandir, around ?
[07:36] <Zdra> I read somewhere that gnome-terminal has real transparency when compositor is present... I'm running edgy with xcompmgr and I don't get real trans... it that normal ?
[07:43] <desrt> Zdra; you can transset the entire window
[07:44] <desrt> Zdra; but in order to get proper "real" transparency you'd need to have g-t paint its background with an rgba colour... which afaik it currently doesn't support doing
[07:49] <Zdra> desrt: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=345378
[07:49] <Ubug2> Gnome bug 345378 in general "real transparency" [Enhancement,Resolved: fixed]
[07:49] <Zdra> found the bug with the patch commited to g-t
[07:50] <desrt> +gboolean terminal_window_uses_argb_visual (TerminalWindow *window);
[07:50] <desrt> i see :)
[07:50] <desrt> well
[07:50] <desrt> this was only committed last month
[07:51] <desrt> so unless you're running CVS HEAD or edgy or something you won't have this functionality
[07:51] <ogra> mjg59, i have a weird problem with usplash and ltsp
[07:52] <ogra> seems the login manager doesnt get the keyboard input
[07:52] <ogra> i have to switch to tty1 and back to make it work
[07:53] <Zdra> desrt: I'm running edgy and I don't get the functionality :(
[07:55] <desrt> odd?
[08:05] <Tonio_> hello
[08:18] <Mithrandir> ogra: around for a little bit now, yes.
[08:21] <jdong_> who should I talk to about getting XFS whipped up to shape for Edgy?
[08:21] <jdong_> our edgy kernel suffers from the directory corruption bug, and the userspace tools are all out of date
[08:22] <LarstiQ> jdong_: partly kernel team then?
[08:24] <jdong_> LarstiQ: what's a good way of reaching them... launchpad is apparently pretty ignored :-/
[08:24] <crimsun> #-kernel.
[08:26] <LarstiQ> or https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
[08:41] <bddebian> LarstiQ!!  Did you look at diacanvas2 yet? :-)
[08:41] <LarstiQ> bddebian: yup!
[08:42] <LarstiQ> feh, it's clean target also fails
[08:42] <bddebian> LarstiQ: Really?  Any luck? :-)
[08:43] <LarstiQ> bddebian: not yet, other than confirming it also fails for me :)
[08:43] <bddebian> Heh
[08:43] <bddebian> LarstiQ: Blame seb128, it's easier ;-P
[08:43] <tseng> ez gtk boog
[08:43] <bddebian> ez pygobject b00g
[08:55] <imbrandon> jdong_: i was just stopin the flood , come on back
[08:55] <jdong_> imbrandon: I will, give me a sec
[09:12] <bluefoxicy> someone is requesting a security notice RSS feed
[09:15] <tseng> http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.security.announce
[09:17] <bddebian> What, someone was requesting a ball gag for bluefoxicy? ;-P
[09:19] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  very nice.
[09:20] <bluefoxicy> bddebian:  .... ball gag.  o.o
[09:21] <Seveas> bluefoxicy, media.ubuntu-nl.org/rss
[09:23] <Seveas> hmm -- the scurity feeds are still on ubuntu-nl.org/files/
[09:27] <bddebian> bluefoxicy: :-)
[09:45] <kiko> hey there
[09:45] <kiko> how's the UK bank holiday going?
[09:46] <bluefoxicy> Hi kiko
[09:46] <rodarvus> crimsun, ping
[09:46] <LaserJock> what's a bank holiday?
[09:46] <Burgwork> LaserJock, stat
[09:46] <bluefoxicy> it's when banks stop operating for a day I think
[09:47] <kiko> so here's a silly question
[09:47] <kiko> I have install linux-image-686 and linux-image-386
[09:48] <kiko> however the 686's version is behind the 386 version.
[09:48] <kiko> is that reasonable?
[09:48] <jdong> no...
[09:48] <jdong> you should have linux-686 installed
[09:48] <desrt> maybe you installed the 386 version at a time the -686 one was waiting to build
[09:48] <jdong> and it should pull in the latest linux-image-2.6.15-whatever-686
[09:49] <crimsun> rodarvus: pong
[09:49] <rodarvus> crimsun, I'll ask in privmsg
[09:50] <kiko> hmmm
[09:50] <kiko> let me pull in updated index files
[09:53] <pygi> siretart, poke?
[09:58] <jcole> what is the debian installer irc room?
[10:01] <jcole> nm wrong server!
 however the 686's version is behind the 386 version.
[10:04] <bluefoxicy> mdz was talking about eliminating everything but 686 (386 is really a 486 kernel) and renaming 386 to 'generic'
[10:05] <bluefoxicy> but I think the plan was to move 'generic' up from 486 to 586 if that route was taken; and I don't think there'd be some half-ass transition w/ 386 going and then getting renamed etc etc.  Actually I'm wondering where that's going
[10:05] <bluefoxicy> anyone know what conclusion they reached for that?
[10:05] <jdong> idn, but the generic kernel better support SMP :)
[10:06] <bluefoxicy> it will; smp has zero overhead.
[10:06] <HiddenWolf> bluefoxicy: it already does in dapper, afaik
[10:06] <bluefoxicy> HiddenWolf:  I didn't see that; that sounds kind of invasive to backport to dapper
[10:06] <bluefoxicy> it's a major infrastructure change
[10:07] <HiddenWolf> bluefoxicy: there are no -smp kernels in dapper, never have been
[10:07] <HiddenWolf> at least, don't think so
[10:07] <bluefoxicy> the method in which kernels are built and distributed goes from having 486, 686, k7, and p4 to just generic (586)
[10:07] <jdong> HiddenWolf: but 386 is not smp
[10:07] <LaserJock> I thought the idea was to just to go to 1 generic kernel for x86
[10:07] <LaserJock> and I thought they were smp in Dapper too, :/
[10:07] <bluefoxicy> HiddenWolf:  -SMP was gotten rid of a while back, since it has no overhead it's just built into all kernels
[10:07] <jdong> bluefoxicy: except -386
[10:08] <bluefoxicy> HiddenWolf:  I was talking about what LaserJock is saying.
[10:08] <bluefoxicy> jdong:  yeah
[10:08] <jcole> like knoppix... uses an smp kernel
[10:09] <jcole> why doesn't -386 have smp?
[10:09] <bluefoxicy> a few drivers break when built for 486 or something.
[10:10] <Chipzz> bluefoxicy: yes, and some drivers dont work at all with -smp :P
[10:10] <bluefoxicy> Chipzz:  I thought the smp kernel for 586 and 686 would have smp and those drivers would work
[10:10] <Chipzz> bluefoxicy: some companies just don't care about "border cases" like smp
[10:12] <bluefoxicy> Chipzz:  nods.  Well, in the future when we have 16 core chips they will.
[10:13] <jdong> if that "we" implies that I'll have it, then I'm in :)
[10:14] <bluefoxicy> AMD Athlon 64 X16 1.2GHz, runs at 10C, 16.8GHz total raw power, $150 in 2015, "Back in my day we had a 686... it only had one core... and we still built Ubuntu for 486..."
[10:14] <Chipzz> so I wonder how smp as a default is a good thing :P
[10:14] <jdong> well, having a non-smp kernel or a way to turn off SMP is a necessity
[10:14] <jdong> *cough* damn ralink drivers *cough*
[10:15] <jdong> actually, at the moment ipw3945 isn't spectacular with SMP
[10:15] <bluefoxicy> jdong:  I'm looking at newegg, it's $150 for an Athlon 64 X2 2GHz and around $50-$80 for a microATX board that has SATA2 and 4 DDR400 slots and PCI-e 16 lane and nforce 410
[10:15] <bluefoxicy> as long as you live a decade or so longer I'm sure you'll get one ;)
[10:15] <jdong> bluefoxicy: yeah, x2's are really cheap now that intel pwned them :)
[10:15] <bluefoxicy> hah
[10:16] <jdong> my neighbor has a socket 939, and he's just eyeing the price slashes
[10:17] <LaserJock> well, considering my pbuilder machine is a 1.3Ghz P4 with 256MB of ram, I'd be happy with just about anything
[10:17] <jdong> :)
[10:18] <bluefoxicy> jdong:  I need to upgrade my brain to something dual core, the workload is getting too heavy ;P
[10:18] <LaserJock> more RAM!
[10:18] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock:  actually that's what I'm up to now
[10:18] <LaserJock> my problem is the brain IO is really slow
[10:19] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock: http://bluefox.kicks-ass.org/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php/Project_Steel:Design  re, my silly personal projects
[10:19] <tseng> LaserJock: i loose things moving stuff across the system bus to cache
[10:19] <jdong> bluefoxicy: SMP-enabled brain.... sounds like bipolar if you ask me :)
[10:19] <tseng> LaserJock: never gets through to the cpu
[10:19] <LaserJock> tseng: mhm, I fell you there
[10:20] <jdong> on a more non-OT note, how long does it typically take ubuntu-archive to respond?
[10:20] <LaserJock> bluefoxicy: I have no idea what that is, but it's got lots of stuff
[10:20] <jdong> I've got 25 or so backports in launchpad with their name stamped on em :)
[10:20] <LaserJock> jdong: depends on if ubuntu-archive is on vacation
[10:20] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock:  it's me pushing the "glibc is a pile of crap" mentality because I hate their allocator.
[10:20] <LaserJock> or busy putting out a knot cd
[10:20] <LaserJock> etc.
[10:20] <jcole> btw, how does one get the arch? 686 386 k7 etc.?
[10:20] <jdong> LaserJock: at the moment?
[10:21] <jdong> jcole: I'd look at /proc/cpuinfo for that information
[10:21] <jdong> jcole: uname -m can get you 386 vs 586/686, but not k7
[10:21] <jcole> i don't see 686
[10:22] <jcole> the debian installer selects the right kernel
[10:22] <jcole> how?
[10:23] <jdong> LaserJock: does poking ubuntu-archive people help speed up the process, or just irritate them?
[10:23] <LaserJock> jdong: perhaps a bit of both
[10:23] <LaserJock> I think they have a pretty good handle on what they need to do
[10:23] <LaserJock> they just need to find time
[10:24] <LaserJock> but I think many people have been on vacation
[10:24] <LaserJock> which is what I suspect is the issue in your case
[10:32] <trappist> There are hundreds if not thousands of bugs filed against old releases where the most recent activity is something like "is it still a problem on dapper", unanswered for several months.  It it useful or correct to close these with appropriate comments?
[10:33] <LaserJock> I try to either confirm them or not myself before doing that
[10:35] <trappist> LaserJock: yeah me too if possible, but I'm mostly seeing stuff that one guy reported once against breezy or hoary or warty and we haven't heard about the bug again since, in situations nobody else could reproduce.
[10:35] <Burgwork> trappist, ask dholbach
[10:35] <LaserJock> trappist: sound like a good candidate for a closing with a nice note ;-)
[10:36] <Burgwork> trappist, there is a time, but my brain is not remembering the specific time
[10:36] <trappist> LaserJock: I'm asking because there are like bajillions of these things
[10:36] <trappist> Burgwork: last time I asked a similar question, I was told a month.  I'm asking again now because of the sheer volume of these bugs that I'd like to clear out.
[10:36] <Burgwork> yep
[10:37] <Burgwork> do a few and then ask seb128 or dholbach for a check
[10:37] <Burgwork> then go to town
[10:37] <LaserJock> trappist: honestly I'd ask dholbach or sfllaw before you go on a big bug closing campaign
[10:37] <trappist> LaserJock: sounds like a plan.  I don't know either of those people.  wait for em to show up here, or what?
[10:37] <sfllaw> trappist: Hi.
[10:37] <sfllaw> :)
[10:37] <trappist> hey!
[10:37] <trappist> sfllaw: did you see the original question?
[10:37] <LaserJock> trappist: #ubuntu-bugs is also good ;-)
[10:38] <sfllaw> Yeah.
[10:38] <trappist> I'm in there.  didn't think to ask there.
[10:38] <sfllaw> The general policy is that if someone asks for information and there's no response in a month, then we reject the bug.
[10:38] <sfllaw> But for things like this...
[10:38] <sfllaw> It's probably not a good idea to close them unless you're pretty sure it's no longer an issue.
[10:39] <sfllaw> Or if the bug is so vague that you'd never be able to reproduce it without help from the original submitter.
[10:39] <sfllaw> If in doubt, leave it open.
[10:39] <trappist> sfllaw: I could probably kill many hundreds of bugs with a 3-month threshold, and on most of them there's no way to be sure it's no longer an issue, unless assuming that no activity for so long means it's no longer an issue counts
[10:40] <trappist> sfllaw: ok that's pretty much been my approach.  thanks!
[10:40] <Burgwork> sfllaw, is it worth having a bug open for more than 3 months?
[10:40] <Burgwork> a needinfo one, tbc
[10:41] <sfllaw> Burgwork: If there's no info at all and it's still in Needs Info, then we close in one month.
[10:41] <sfllaw> trappist: You can use some judgement.
[10:41] <sfllaw> trappist: For instance, if someone says something is broken, and then doesn't reply for three months, it probably unbroke.
[10:41] <sfllaw> trappist: If it's something minor, then you might leave it as a record.
[10:42] <sfllaw> trappist: You can also ask people in #ubuntu-bugs to look at edge cases.
[10:42] <sfllaw> trappist: That's the channel the BugSquad uses for bug triage and stuff.
[10:45] <trappist> sfllaw: excellent.  and for the ones that pretty obviously ought to be closed, the correct status is rejected, rather than assuming fix released?
[10:46] <sfllaw> trappist: Rejected.  You should subscribe and leave a nice note saying "We closed this bug because there was no response.  But just reply to reopen."
[10:46] <trappist> replying will reopen?  that's good, I didn't know that.
[10:58] <sfllaw> trappist: Well, no.
[10:58] <QuestionMarkCoun> Hi *
[10:58] <sfllaw> trappist: You'll have to set it to something sensible.
[10:59] <trappist> ah.
[10:59] <QuestionMarkCoun> Kamion, sorry for annyoing you again with a cdimage question...
[11:01] <QuestionMarkCoun> I have modified some udebs, apt-setup e. g., and putted them in a separate section of my archive (not main or restricted)
[11:01] <QuestionMarkCoun> how do I get deb
[11:02] <QuestionMarkCoun> debian-installer, to use my own udebs from the other section?
[12:05] <z\> hello some italian developer herE ?
[12:05] <z\> *here*
[12:08] <shackan> z\,  you might have better luck if you ask in #ubuntu-it