[12:00] <deki_> Kamion, thx i will do it, but can it be on wrongly compiled gtk lib?
[12:00] <Kamion> (because whoever knows about it might not be here)
[12:01] <Kamion> deki_: I haven't a baldie notion
[12:01] <deki_> ok
[12:01] <Kamion> our gtk maintainer is not currently in this channel
[12:02] <beatreader> Hi everyone.
[12:03] <beatreader> I'm having trouble installing plone on hoary, due to missing packages.
[12:03] <beatreader> Any thoughts?
[12:04] <bob2> in this channel the reply'll be something along the lines of "patches welcome"
[12:05] <beatreader> hmmm...can I add a line to my sources list using debian testing, and get the missing packages from there?
[12:05] <Kamion> very unwise
[12:05] <Kamion> apt gets upset by the existence of two different packages with the same version number but different md5sums
[12:05] <doko> beatreader: wait until tomorrow ... we'll have complete plone packages soon.
[12:06] <beatreader> But then kamion, what are my options?  It`s not realistic for me to build the packages from scratch.
[12:06] <Kamion> beatreader: we don't suggest that users try to get bugs fixed by random distro-hopping :-)
[12:06] <Kamion> universe is there so that people don't have to try to mix - if there are bugs in universe they should be fixed in universe. :-)
[12:20] <zul> hey pitti are you going to have a deb for postgresql jdbc? :)
[12:21] <pitti> zul: not from my side
[12:21] <pitti> zul: if you want to care for it, I'm happy to assist you, though :)
[12:21] <pitti> zul: I'm just not using Java for anything
[12:21] <zul> pitti: yeah ill see about that :)
[12:22] <pitti> zul: could be a nice test/use case for pgxs and postgresql-server-dev
[12:25] <jdub> pitti: postgres stuff sounds rad
[12:25] <pitti> jdub: thanks :-)
[12:27] <pitti> jdub: btw, is there something like an experimental counterpart for Ubuntu?
[12:27] <pitti> jdub: I just uploaded all this crack to Debian/experimental
[12:27] <pitti> jdub: but it would be nice to have a similar place for Ubuntu, too
[12:28] <zul> lamont: ping
[12:30] <jdub> pitti: hoary universe?
[12:30] <pitti> jdub: I can't put the upgrade transition packages there
[12:30] <pitti> jdub: they naturally have the same name as the current packages (postgresql, postgresql-client, etc.)
[12:31] <pitti> jdub: however, having the other packages in universe sounds good
[12:31] <jdub> yeah
[12:31] <pitti> jdub: you just lose the upgrade path, but can install them from scratch
[12:31] <jdub> perhaps put the transition packages in a personal repo
[12:32] <jdub> pitti: when we have derivative stuff going, you could have your own personal buildd area ;)
[12:32] <dholbach> if i'm going to use  DEB_AUTO_UPDATE_AUTOMAKE  and friends in  debian/rules  - i have no alternative but build-depend on specific versions of the autotools, right?
[12:33] <pitti> dholbach: argh, DON'T do that
[12:33] <pitti> dholbach: "This way madness lies"
[12:34] <dholbach> pitti, i wasnt sure if it was considered a common rudeness
[12:34] <pitti> dholbach: please try to put the changes into the package diff.gz instead
[12:34] <pitti> dholbach: it's not rude, it's just unstable
[12:35] <dholbach> i see
[12:35] <dholbach> ok
[12:40] <dholbach> i thought it'd be nice to have a clear tarball and a clear diff.gz as well, but i listen to advice :-)
[12:40] <pitti> dholbach: a clean diff.gz is certainly a good thing :-)
[12:40] <pitti> dholbach: however, breaking builds because of it is bad
[12:41] <pitti> dholbach: btw, my favourite build system is cdbs+tarball
[12:41] <pitti> dholbach: then you can put the autofoo changes into a proper patch
[12:42] <pitti> elmo_: can I bribe you somehow to give postgresql in experimental/NEW some extra love? :-)
[12:42] <dholbach> pitti, the "diff.gz > orig.tar.gz"-situation annoyed me that hard, i didn' even try the tarball alternative
[12:43] <pitti> dholbach: oops :-) for which package?
[12:43] <dholbach> gparted
[12:43] <pitti> dholbach: it's not going to be smaller with tarball, just nicer to maintain
[12:43] <pitti> ah
[12:43] <pitti> well, with a small orig.tar.gz this happens...
[12:49] <elmo_> pitti: prod me about it in a couple of days, if I haven't done it - I'm too tired to do new tonnight, sorry
[12:49] <pitti> elmo_: oh, I wasn't speaking of "now, instantly, yesterday" :-)
[12:49] <pitti> elmo_: thanks, will do
[12:50] <dholbach> elmo, how was the "server maintenance" going?
[12:51] <elmo_> dholbach: took longer than expected, but it was ok
[12:51] <dholbach> elmo_, very good! :-)
[12:55] <ogra> elmo ! :)
[12:55] <pitti> night everybody
[12:55] <ogra> night pitti
[12:56] <dholbach> sleep tight, pitti
[12:56] <elmo_> ogra: um, there was a couple of things with hwdb..
[12:56] <ogra> oh, a couple ?
[12:56] <ogra> elmo: tell me ....
[12:57] <elmo_> ogra: 'hwdb' isn't expanded anywhere in the description and will be meaningless to most people
[12:57] <ogra> oh, ok
[12:57] <elmo_> ogra also, why arch: any and not arch: all?  it seems to be simple python scripts
[12:57] <ogra> ok, i'll fix that too
[12:58] <elmo_>   programs for the ubuntu hdwb system to collect device, config,
[12:58] <elmo_>   log and QA data from ubuntu systems
[12:59] <elmo_> isn't great, but I'm too tired to suggest anything better really.. "Programs to collect device, config, logs and QA data for the Ubuntu Hardware Database." maybe?
[12:59] <ogra> at least lintian was happy with that... i'll make it more descriptive
[12:59] <elmo_> that'd be great, thanks
[12:59] <ogra> sounds good
[01:00] <ogra> hmm, wouldnt lintian moan about capital Programs ?
[01:00] <elmo_> oh, ignore that lintian thing; I'm not at all convinced by it
[01:01] <elmo_> err, that specific lintian moan, I mean
[01:01] <ogra> you should make a list, which warnings are serious and which arent ;)
[01:01] <elmo_> nah, lintian should be fixed - I think most of the most dubious ones already have been, but after we froze
[01:02] <ogra> to sad its in main...
[01:03] <elmo_> there's always hoary+1 :)
[01:03] <ogra> heh, true :)
[01:04] <ogra> should i bump ubuntu0 to ubutu1 for the fixes ?
[01:04] <sivang> night all!
[01:04] <dholbach> bye sivan!
[01:04] <elmo_> ogra: please - unless you want me to reject ubuntu0
[01:04] <sivang> night dholbach
[01:05] <ogra> okay
[01:05] <jvw> elmo_: you have lintian 1.23.6/7? That were not really the best lintian releases... but whatever
[01:07] <elmo_> jvw: well if you know of any RC level bugs later versions fixed, I could ask for ours to be updated..
[01:07] <jvw> no RC ones
[01:08] <jvw> for my definition (Debian's) or RC at least
[01:08] <jvw> elmo_: do you ahve access to /msg to 'elmo'?
[01:08] <elmo_> jvw: I can do ..
[01:08] <jvw> not urgent
[01:09] <jvw> more urgent one being typed now :)
[01:11] <elmo_> dude, stop sending messages to the non-live client :P
[01:11] <jvw> ok ok...
[01:11] <jvw> you said you had access to it :)
[01:11] <elmo_> I do - by less(1)-ing the logfile - and that's over a non-great link
[01:12] <dholbach> how can i "update" the gnome menus? is it gamin/inotify deserving a kick?
[01:12] <ajmitch> elmo_: what happened with the gtk# 1.9.2 upload that I did? katie doesn't send me mails, so I can't tell :)
[01:13] <ogra> dholbach: kill the panel
[01:13] <herzi> dholbach: kill -9 `pidof gnome-panel` :-D
[01:13] <ogra> (which slays gaim btw)
[01:14] <elmo_> ajmitch: what address do you use in Changed-By ?
[01:14] <ajmitch><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:15] <elmo_> did too send you the REJECT
[01:15] <ajmitch> ok, it must be getting dropped somewhere
[01:16] <elmo_> looks like it timedout during the upload
[01:16] <elmo_> are you uploading from a slow link?
[01:16] <ajmitch> 128Kbps up
[01:17] <elmo_> unfortunately there's a bug in our upload daemon that times uploads out after 900s, you might want to try uploading just the orig.tar.gz separately, then the rest
[01:17] <ajmitch> alright, thanks
[01:17] <elmo_> or upload it to somewhere with faster uplink, and from there to ubuntu... sorry, it sucks
[02:04] <dholbach> i'm off to bed
[02:04] <ogra> night
[02:06] <ajmitch> night
[02:51] <ari> who was looking for a todo list the other day?
[02:51] <ari> oh, srbaker
[04:41] <lamont> daniels: ??
[04:45] <lunitik> Does Evince replace Xpdf in 'ubuntu-desktop' yet?
[04:45] <Safari_Al> lunitik, not yet.
[04:46] <lunitik> Safari_Al, ahh... k, thank you
[04:49] <daniels> lamont: !!
[04:50] <lamont> daniels: wassup?
[04:51] <daniels> lamont: ah, nothin' :) was wondering how to kick and mirror-sync a custom cd build, but colin got to it
[04:51] <lamont> ah, good
[04:56] <daniels> lamont: ahr :)
[06:24] <da_bon_bon> when are we expecting gaim and xserver-xorg updates ?
[06:26] <ari> as in gaim 1.1.3?
[06:26] <da_bon_bon> yes
[06:26] <ari> probably not until the ppc crasher is fixed
[06:26] <da_bon_bon> what ppc crasher ? gaim 1.1.3 crashes ppc ?
[06:29] <ari> da_bon_bon: yes
[06:29] <ari> unless you build with -O0
[06:30] <da_bon_bon> ari: and what disadvantages does building with -00 have ?>
[06:31] <ari> no optimization
[06:31] <ari> and it doesn't address the real problem
[06:32] <da_bon_bon> oh ok..
[06:32] <da_bon_bon> ari: u the gaim maintainer ?
[06:33] <ari> for debian, yes
[06:33] <ari> well, one of them
[06:33] <da_bon_bon> :)
[06:33] <da_bon_bon> not for ubuntu ?
[06:34] <crimsun> da_bon_bon: because gaim is in main, all the developers "maintain" it.
[06:35] <da_bon_bon> crimsun: ah, ok..
[07:40] <da_bon_bon> when r we getting xorg 6.8.2 ?
[07:58] <dilinger> fabbione and pitti probably aren't around, are they?
[08:00] <bob2> fabio's won't be back until...some point in the distant future
[08:02] <dilinger> hrm, ok
[08:03] <dilinger> i'm looking at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/usn/usn-82-1
[08:04] <dilinger> i guess i'm misunderstanding pitti's english
         "In 2.6.8, the only processes that could lock shared memory segments
         were those with CAP_IPC_LOCK.  Unprivileged processes did not get a
         look in." so this is 2.6.9
[08:05] <dilinger> he probably meant it was fixed in 2.6.9
[08:44] <Mithrandir> daniels: does fd.o's bugzilla have any "pending" state?
[08:53] <herzi> ari: http://www.blaubeermuffin.de/packages/ there's a gaim-plugin-encyption for hoary, would you sponsor an unstable upload for me?
[08:54] <pitti> Morning
[08:55] <doko> morning pitti
[09:06] <pitti> Morning carlos
[09:07] <carlos> pitti: morning
[09:07] <pitti> Kamion, jdub: I'd like to sync awstats 6.3-1 to hoary; it's a new minor upstream version, but fixes a lot of things
[09:07] <pitti> Kamion, jdub: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/a/awstats/awstats_6.3-1/changelog
[09:08] <pitti> Kamion, jdub: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=441331
[09:12] <bob2> dilinger: oi
[09:19] <d3vic3> doko, ping
[09:19] <doko> d3vic3: pong
[09:34] <dholbach> hai
[09:35] <dilinger> bob2: we!
[09:35] <bob2> pitti's back so you can harass him directly
[09:35] <pitti> bob2: who?
[09:36] <dilinger> bob2: thanks, already did :)
[09:36] <bob2> ah, right
[09:49] <bob2> the best bit about firefox is when it stops redrawing the screen and spins at 100% cpu
[09:51] <bob2> 195 frames deep, no less
[09:51] <Treenaks> 195 frames deep?
[09:52] <bob2> er, the backtrace is
[09:52] <Treenaks> ah ok
[09:52] <Treenaks> not the page
[09:52] <bob2> heh, no
[09:55] <dholbach> hellas mvo!
[10:01] <mvo> hi dholbach
[10:01] <mvo> morning all
[10:01] <dholbach> hi dredg
[10:02] <dredg> hey
[10:09] <Kamion> pitti: go ahead
[10:11] <dholbach> hi seb128
[10:12] <seb128> morning
[10:13] <pitti> elmo_: please sync awstats (new upstream version ack'ed by Kamion), and bidwatcher
[10:23] <dholbach> could it be that, whatever puts the buildlogs on p.u.c/~lamont deserves some persuasion
[10:26] <pitti> elmo_: pdns sync, please
[10:28] <seb128> jdub: the gtk icon cache is so bong
[10:28] <seb128> totally bong
[10:28] <jdub> broken bong?
[10:28] <seb128> yeah
[10:28] <seb128> if an app install an icon in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/...
[10:29] <seb128> the app needs to update the timestamp for the basedir (/usr/share/icons/hicolor)
[10:29] <seb128> or the cache just mask the icon
[10:29] <seb128> and we have about 350 packages puttings some icons here
[10:29] <seb128> without updating the timestamp
[10:29] <seb128> so 350 apps broken
[10:29] <jdub> oh man
[10:30] <seb128> some of them crash, some other don't display an icon
[10:30] <jdub> oh man
[10:30] <seb128> exactly
[10:30] <jdub> how's that for an optimisation!
[10:30] <seb128> and owen's reply is "The icon theme spec requires the toplevel directory mtime to be updated when installing something into a subdir."
[10:30] <jdub> :-)
[10:30] <seb128> and NOTABUG so
[10:31] <seb128> that an the icon cache doesn't work on ppc
[10:31] <seb128> you only get hicolor icons
[10:31] <seb128> we are probably dropping gtk-update-icon-cache in deb for the moment
[10:31] <seb128> I'm curious to know how fedora uses it
[10:35] <pitti> Hi Astharot
[10:35] <Astharot> hi pitti :)
[10:36] <pitti> Astharot: do you want to provide an updated patch for synaestesia?
[10:44] <dholbach> bbl
[10:46] <Mithrandir> jdub: did you see my comments about flumotion on Thursday?
[10:47] <Astharot-> shit :|
[10:47] <Astharot> pitti: have you wrote something else? :)
[10:47] <pitti> Astharot: Joey sent an updated patch to the ML
[10:47] <Astharot> yes I know...
[10:48] <Astharot> I'm fixing it
[10:48] <pitti> thanks
[10:48] <pitti> mvo: btw, I'm still getting the cron error
[10:48] <pitti> mvo: Could not open ./pool/universe/f/fireflier/fireflier_1.1.4-3/changelog
[10:48] <Astharot> did you see other patches ?
[10:50] <pitti> mvo: this is a dangling symlink to "../changelog" -> please resolve symlinks in your script
[10:50] <pitti> Astharot: yes, I saw them
[10:50] <pitti> Astharot: I will process them ASAP
[10:50] <Astharot> ok perfect ;)
[10:50] <jdub> Mithrandir: nup
[10:50] <jdub> Mithrandir: fire away
[10:51] <Mithrandir> jdub: it's almost there, but it needs to be easier to get started with.
[10:52] <jdub> yeah
[10:52] <jdub> there's a bit of zen to grok
[10:52] <Mithrandir> jdub: currently, it's "fire up those three magic commands, then a flumotion-admin (with the auth info on the command line)", which really sucks.
[10:52] <Mithrandir> it was easy, but wrong.
[10:52] <jdub> also, my package makes it a bit harder once you understand it
[10:52] <jdub> /usr/sbin/flumotion makes it easier
[10:52] <jdub> but i haven't made an init script for it yet, etc.
[10:53] <Mithrandir> one shouldn't have to be root to run the streaming server.
[10:53] <jdub> also, local changes improve generation of default.pem, etc.
[10:53] <Mithrandir> there's really no reason why one should be.
[10:53] <jdub> yeah, i don't run it as root
[10:53] <Mithrandir> we might want to do something like user-level services at some point.
[10:53] <Mithrandir> where a user can say "when this box boots, run those commands"
[10:53] <jdub> to make things Just Work, i'm going to add a flumotion user, and add it to audio/video
[10:54] <jdub> Mithrandir: @reboot in cron :)
[10:54] <Mithrandir> jdub: why not just parrot on the init script system?
[10:54] <jdub> i dunno
[10:54] <jdub> seems a bit cracky ;()
[10:54] <jdub> :)
[10:54] <Mithrandir> it's really the same thing.
[10:54] <Mithrandir> and you would get stop/start/reload/restart at the same time.
[11:00] <seb128> hey thom
[11:00] <Mithrandir> dude, it's far from .no to .uk, but not that far. :)
[11:00] <seb128> thom: firefox update today ?
[11:00] <pitti> thom: <bitch>for warty, too? :-)</bitch>
[11:01] <thom> Mithrandir: thpppppt
[11:03] <mvo> pitti: it does resolve symlinks now, is it possible that this is a old entry written before the script was fixed?
[11:04] <pitti> mvo: oh, right. That's entirely possibl
[11:04] <pitti> e
[11:04] <pitti> mvo: thus this will never be fixed?
[11:04] <pitti> or can you fix it manually?
[11:05] <seb128> thom: have you read the message about firefox/the pango patch ?
[11:05] <Astharot> pitti: sent
[11:05] <pitti> Astharot: I saw it, thanks
[11:06] <mvo> pitti: I just removed the fireflier changelog dir, it will be recreated (corretly) soon (script runs)
[11:06] <pitti> mvo: thanks a lot
[11:06] <thom> seb128: yes, thank you
[11:06] <mvo> pitti: are there any more packages with broken symlinks that you are aware of? :)
[11:07] <pitti> mvo: no, that's the only one
[11:07] <mvo> pitti: I can ping you when the script has finished (if you want)
[11:08] <seb128> thom: np
[11:08] <pitti> mvo: not necessary, it's not urgent
[11:38] <Sionide> hey i'd just like to say, i installed ubuntu on my laptop yesterday and it went on like a dream...
[12:19] <Riddell> I'm getting complaints that kvim and vim can't be installed in warty (which means installing kde metapackage removes vim)
[12:20] <Riddell> kvim depends on vim (= 1:6.3-046+1ubuntu3) but vim has had a security update, any way that can be fixed?
[12:20] <pitti> Riddell: yes, you need to upload a new kvim as well
[12:20] <Kamion> kvim is part of the vim source package
[12:20] <pitti> Riddell: feel free to upload a fixed version
[12:20] <pitti> Riddell: (but please send me a debdiff before)
[12:21] <Kamion> no, hold on a second please
[12:21] <Kamion> (trying to find the bug you need to refer them to)
[12:21] <pitti> Riddell: oh, it's part of vim source? then please hold on
[12:22] <Riddell> pitti: looks like it is, I didn't realise that
[12:22] <Kamion> Riddell: please refer them to bug #3599
[12:22] <Kamion> comment #2
[12:24] <pitti> ah, that's the reason
[12:24] <pitti> thanks Kamion
[12:25] <Riddell> Kamion: ah hah,
[12:25] <Riddell> many thanks
[12:28] <dholbach> did someone resolve the build/buildlogs-issue, when i wasnt here?
[12:29] <dholbach> at least what is going wrong
[12:30] <daniels> Mithrandir: no
[12:31] <Mithrandir> daniels: bah :/  I'll use [PENDING]  in bug titles or something, then.
[12:38] <daniels> Mithrandir: if you can fix our setup, or find someone to do the same ... :)
[12:38] <Mithrandir> daniels: can't you get me drunk and drop me into a root shell when I'm in .au and I can look at it? ;)
[12:39] <daniels> Mithrandir: root access on fd.o is a very exclusive club
[12:39] <Mithrandir> yeah, only like 20-30 people or have you cut down on that now?
[12:43] <thom> Mithrandir: nah, about 2000 people
[12:44] <thom> jdub: what should i be calling Firefox in the menu? Firefox? Firefox web browser? Your Mum?
[12:45] <toresbe> heh
[12:45] <toresbe> "Launch Your Mum"
[12:46] <Mithrandir> thom: it's just called firefox here.
[12:47] <daniels> Mithrandir: only 6, and none of us are NOPASSWD
[12:47] <daniels> oh, and pasc has limited sudo (i.e. /usr/sbin/postfix)
[12:47] <Mithrandir> daniels: I don't have NOPASSWD on my laptop and I have a 20-ish char passwd. :P
[12:48] <daniels> heh :) well, no-one had passwords on fd.o before
[12:48] <daniels> or, we did, but the ldap admin stuff we had was so fucked up that no-one knew what their passwords were
[12:48] <Mithrandir> everybody knows passwords are overrated anyhow
[12:48] <daniels> and i think everyone had forgotten the root password
[12:48] <daniels> so it's kind of lucky that we didn't have any catastrophic failures
[12:51] <thom> Mithrandir: yes, and there's a bug filed about that
[12:51] <thom> that's why I'm asking :-)
[12:51] <Mithrandir> thom: ook
[12:59] <pitti> elmo: typespeed sync, please
[01:13] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: any suggestions on how to multiarchify libtool?
[01:13] <Keybuk> shouldn't it happen automatically ?
[01:13] <Keybuk> it tends to just query gcc for things like include and lib directories
[01:14] <Mithrandir> hmm, weird.
[01:14] <Mithrandir> it doesn't seem to here.. or if so, it doesn't get all it should
[01:15] <Keybuk> oh
[01:25] <daniels> Kamion: ping
[01:25] <Kamion> daniels: pong
[01:29] <thom> elmo: please sync db2latex-xsl
[01:52] <jbailey> Kamion: Just taking a quick pass through the bugs that mdz assigned to me.  Would you mind taking a look at #3982?  It's about a series of d-i errors with a fix in Debiian already.  I'm wondering if you know that it's generally safe for me to just import the fixes / a new version from Debian (+ Ubuntu changes)?
[01:57] <thom> seb128: firefox uploaded
[01:57] <thom> fixes epiphany locally, at any rate
[01:57] <seb128> rock
[01:58] <Kamion> jbailey: looking
[01:59] <Kamion> jbailey: console-data is a package we've locally modified, but it's generally safe to merge it.
[01:59] <Kamion> jbailey: however, we've already got a version newer than the one reported to fix the bug
[02:00] <Kamion> jbailey: so I should think it can just be closed (maybe following a test)
[02:01] <jbailey> Ah, hadn't noticed that.  *sigh*  Sorry for the hassle.  Will test & close.
[02:02] <mjg59> daniels: Hmm. I'm not having much love with 3D over suspend/resume
[02:02] <Kamion> no hassle at all :)
[02:02] <daniels> mjg59: bongtasmic.  i'm just running stock ... 2.6.10-2-686, actually.
[02:02] <daniels> so it might have regressed.
[02:02] <mvo> quick poll: is this message to scary: "<big>Warning</big> You are about to install software that can't be <b>authenticated</b>! Doing this could allow a malicious individual to damage or take control of your system."?
[02:03] <Treenaks> it's not scary enough :)
[02:03] <Treenaks> mvo: but seriously, I think it's OK
[02:03] <Kamion> I would do <b>can't be authenticated</b> rather than just bolding authenticated
[02:03] <Kamion> it reads oddly the way it is
[02:03] <Treenaks> mvo: it looks like the firefox-for-windows "You downloaded an EXE file" dialog
[02:04] <mvo> Kamion: good point
[02:04] <Treenaks> mvo: and that scared my grandmother into not installing spyware twice already :)
[02:04] <mvo> Treenaks: never seen that one :)
[02:04] <mjg59> Snow!
[02:04] <mvo> Treenaks: but it seems to work!
[02:05] <mvo> Treenaks: your grandmother uses a computer?
[02:05] <Treenaks> mvo: an old windows-98 based one, but yes
 You are about to install software that <b>can't be authenticated</b>! Doing this could allow a malicious individual to damage or take control of your system. <i>In that way modified computers were observed to be browsing porn, riding next door neighbours motorcycles and drinking all the milk on their own accord.</i>
[02:05] <mvo> Treenaks: how old is she?
[02:05] <mjg59> daniels: Are you sure you didn't compile the DRM stuff yourself?
[02:06] <Treenaks> mvo: 76
[02:06] <daniels> mjg59: ... not entirely
[02:07] <mvo> Treenaks: nice!
[02:07] <mjg59> I can't find anything in the patches that would provide it
[02:10] <mjg59> daniels: Oddly, I can't find them in dri CVS either
[02:10] <mjg59> Where's the dri tree in the xorg tree?
[02:11] <daniels> mjg59: /cvs/xorg:xc/extras/drm
[02:11] <daniels> i can't remember how airlied maintains it; it's probably /cvs/mesa:drm
[02:12] <mjg59> daniels: Ok, got it
[02:12] <mjg59> The suspend/resume code is in Xorg CVS, but not in DRI CVS
[02:12] <mjg59> So we don't have it in the kernel. Gragh.
[02:12] <daniels> ah yeah
[02:12] <daniels> /cvs/dri:drm
[02:12] <daniels> oh yeah, alanh fucked that up horribly :\ committed straight to extras/drm, never sent a patch through
[02:13] <daniels> and all the drm stuff had changed, so it's a bitch to port over
[02:13] <daniels> airlied was explaining this last week
[02:13] <mjg59> Hrngh.
[02:14] <mjg59> Any chance of getting it into our tree?
[02:14] <daniels> hmmm, dunno
[02:14] <daniels> it would mean another ABI change :\
[02:14] <daniels> aiui
[02:14] <daniels> actually, no, never mind me
[02:14] <mjg59> Well, it's either that or we ship without 3D suspend/resume on i830
[02:14] <mjg59> Which would suck
[02:14] <daniels> yah
[02:15] <daniels> i'll talk to zul and lamont about it tomorrow
[02:15] <daniels> right now, I'm just trying to work out why evdev sucks so much
[02:15] <mjg59> Haha
[02:15] <daniels> from cat'ing the event device, mouse presses and release generate unique events
[02:15] <daniels> yet the xorg evdev driver seems to fire them both off only when buttonrelease is fired
[02:15] <daniels> i.e. no window draggy-draggy
[02:15] <Kamion> Riddell: I don't know if anyone's reported this to you already, but could you/someone get kynaptic rebuilt against current apt?
[02:16] <pitti> Hi elmo_
[02:16] <pitti> elmo_: is it a known problem that the buildds are inactive?
[02:17] <mjg59> daniels: Ok, if I don't have a chance to look at it tonight I'll let you do it tomorrow
[02:17] <Riddell> Kamion: will do
[02:17] <daniels> mjg59: represent
[02:17] <pitti> elmo_: i. e. are you workign on them?
[02:17] <Kamion> Riddell: thanks
[02:17] <Riddell> Kamion: poke me if I forget
[02:17] <Kamion> ok
[02:17] <mjg59> Damnit, the sysadmin has stolen my ethernet cable
[02:19] <HiddenWolf> mjg59: go kick butt
[02:19] <daniels> huh, what
[02:20] <elmo_> pitti: no - what's not built?
[02:20] <elmo_> never mind, I know what it is
[02:21] <dholbach> elmo_, none of my packages too, although katie sent me nice receipts for every package (since 01:00 UTC)
[02:23] <mjg59> daniels: Other weirdness - if I suspend/resume, then I can't start X again. The running one works fine, but restarting it gives an error saying that a vm86 call failed.
[02:23] <mantiena> Hi all
[02:23] <daniels> mjg59: huh, bong.  are you vbe posting it?
[02:23] <mjg59> Yeah
[02:23] <daniels> mjg59: (bearing in mind that i8xx relies on vbe to set modes)
[02:23] <mjg59> And setting state on restore
[02:23] <daniels> mjg59: try not doing that, then; i don't need to vbe post when i resume (then again, i have dri around s3), and have no problems
[02:24] <mjg59> Heh. It /used/ to work, though.
[02:24] <daniels> bong
[02:24] <mjg59> I'll look into it when I'm not preparing for a talk
[02:25] <daniels> heh :) i have my entire lca talk still to write, 'twas due on friday
[02:25] <daniels> *sigh*
[02:26] <sivang> Morning all!
[02:26] <dholbach> hi sivan!
[02:26] <mjg59> I need to write my FOSDEM talk. And my GUADEC paper.
[02:26] <tritium> Hi sivang
[02:26] <daniels> eep
[02:26] <daniels> what're you talking on?
[02:26] <ogra> mjg59: you talk at FOSDEM ?
[02:27] <daniels> my topic is rather handwavey; 'fd.o'
[02:27] <mantiena> seb128, hi are you online ?
[02:27] <seb128> afternoon
[02:27] <mantiena> seb128, I have one question to you regarding to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167941
[02:27] <elmo_> ok, buildds should be happier now
[02:27] <mjg59> ogra: In the Debian room
[02:28] <seb128> mantiena: yeah ?
[02:28] <dholbach> elmo_, cool
[02:28] <ogra> mjg59: sat or sun ?
[02:28] <mjg59> Sunday
[02:28] <ogra> ah, ok....i'm still not sure which day i'll come (or both?) .... good to know :)
[02:29] <mantiena> seb128, there is serious policy violation bug reported agains gtk in debian bugzilla, but same bug is considered as not a bug by upsream, so what debian maintainers will do ?
[02:29] <seb128> mantiena: upstream consider that as not a gtk bug, not "not a bug"
[02:30] <seb128> mantiena: we probably need to make a dh_something for that and use it
[02:30] <seb128> mantiena: for the moment we will probably drop the icon cache to get the issue sorted
[02:31] <mantiena> seb128, some packages, for example OpenOffice.org can't go into sarge because of this bug :(
[02:32] <Treenaks> openoffice.urgh
[02:32] <seb128> mantiena: not only openoffice, and that's not only this bug, the cache is broken on ppc too
[02:32] <seb128> mantiena: BTW we are working to fix that, don't worry
[02:32] <seb128> and I'm away for ~45min now
[02:32] <mantiena> seb128, thanks
[02:52] <jordi> mvo: ping
[02:53] <jordi> mvo: well, anyway:
[02:53] <jordi> "-t   Give a alternative main window titel (e.g. hostname with `uname -n)`\n"
[02:53] <jordi> s/titel/title/ & s/-n)`/-n`)/
[02:54] <mvo> jordi: fixed some minutes ago in svn :)
[02:54] <jordi> damn :)
[02:55] <jordi> mvo: is the synaptic in Debian the one with the package change history stuff?
[02:55] <jordi> because I don't see it
[02:55] <mvo> jordi: the version in sid should have it, yes
[02:56] <jordi> oh
[02:56] <jordi> yeah
[02:56] <jordi> sorry, it's in the File menu.
[02:57] <jordi> I wonder if thE file menu should the the Package menu, and the file menu an "Actions" menu or whatever.
[02:57] <jordi> dunno what the HIG says about the first menu at all
[02:58] <mvo> jordi: do you think it should be moved somewhere else?
[02:58] <jordi> no, it was probably a wild idea. If I check the HIG and find something that supports it I'll tell you about it.
[02:59] <jordi> I have this idea that the name of the first menu has the name of the objects the application deals with. For example, sj has "CD", etc.
[03:00] <jordi> So maybe synaptci could have "Package". But this is probably not sustained in any guideline :)
[03:00] <jordi> I gotta go, 3PM.
[03:00] <jordi> laters.
[03:01] <mvo> jordi: yeah, the file menu does not really fit very well. but it's hard to come up with a better menu I think
[03:02] <mvo> jordi: bye
[03:10] <zul> hey
[03:21] <mantiena> daniels, are there any plans to write Driver "nvidia" instead of "nv" into xorg.conf during xorg autoconfiguration (XORG_FORCE_PROBE=yes dpkg-reconfigure -fpassthrough xserver-xorg) if nvidia-glx and nvidia-kernel packages exist in system ?
[03:25] <daniels> mantiena: no
[03:25] <dholbach> hi zul
[03:26] <zul> hey dholbach
[03:32] <mantiena> daniels, I could write a patch if you accept - problem is, that ubuntu-based LiveCD with 3D games reguire to use nvidia driver and with realization of X autoconfiguration there ar no way to do this :(
[03:33] <daniels> mantiena: i won't take a patch to do it
[03:34] <daniels> mantiena: the thing is, there's an open source alternative that generally works, and nvidia is known to be broken on some hardware (it will not work with any card below a geforce2; including geforce256, geforce128, tnt2, tnt, riva256, riva128)
[03:34] <pitti> lamont: ping
[03:35] <daniels> deploying a binary-only driver is an absolute no-no, and we should only ever even consider it when we have no other choice to get a basic screen up
[03:35] <mantiena> daniels, you are not right, nvidia works fine with TNT and riva cards
[03:35] <daniels> mantiena: wrong.  1.0.6629 will produce blank screens.
[03:35] <daniels> mantiena: it's a 'known issue' upstream, and they will fix that in their 'next release'
[03:36] <daniels> i don't know when the next release is
[03:36] <daniels> and dropping support for even just tnt2s is absolutely unacceptable
[03:36] <mantiena> daniels, I don't tested on 1.0.6629, but on some older version it really work
[03:36] <daniels> yes, it used to work on 1.0.6111
[03:36] <daniels> and now it's broken with 1.0.6629
[03:36] <daniels> and because it's binary-only, no-one has any idea how or why, or how to fix it
[03:36] <mantiena> daniels, Btw, don't understand me - I don't wanna make proprietary driver default
[03:37] <daniels> right now, there is only one (one) case where nvidia works and nv doesn't, and that case isn't handled by the standard installer right now anyway
[03:37] <daniels> but i need sleep, so goodnight
[03:37] <mantiena> daniels, I just wanna make to write Driver "nvidia" if user had *already* installed proprietary nvidia driver
[03:37] <daniels> and yeah, it's just not going to happen, sorry.  even giving users the option to install binary drivers is a horrendously bad idea, and will lead to a support nightmare that i'm just not interested in.
[03:37] <daniels> how would they have already installed it?
[03:38] <daniels> anyway
[03:38] <daniels> sleep
[03:38] <mantiena> daniels, good night, we might to talk about this tomorow
[03:39] <zul> hey pitti how is it going?
[03:39] <pitti> Hi zul
[03:39] <pitti> zul: like every monday - a weekend worth of security fixes :-)
[03:39] <zul> pitti, say it aint so
[03:48] <sivang> hi pitti !
[03:48] <pitti> Hi sivang
[03:48] <sivang> seb128: do you have the bug report number where mdz commented about enabling cups web interface?
[03:48] <pitti> sivang: what about it?
[03:48] <pitti> sivang: sudo adduser cupsys shadow
[03:49] <sivang> pitti: ah, and it's done? ;-)
[03:49] <pitti> you need to restart cups
[03:49] <sivang> pitti: and then I can connect to the web interface?
[03:49] <seb128> pitti: ?
[03:49] <pitti> sivang: but why do you want to do this?
[03:49] <pitti> seb128: !
[03:49] <pitti> ;-)
[03:50] <sivang> pitti: I just wanted to read the bug report, see if I can give a hand there :-)
[03:50] <seb128> pitti: I'm not sure that you are speaking about the same thing
[03:50] <pitti> seb128: what do you mean?
[03:50] <seb128> pitti: the bug is about adding something in the gnome-cups-manager UI to activate the web access
[03:50] <pitti> ah
[03:51] <pitti> seb128: I don't know that one
[03:52] <snaggen> seb128: Hi, did you take a look at my nvtv package the other day?
[03:53] <seb128> snaggen: no yet
[03:54] <snaggen> ok, just checking... no panik :)
[03:57] <snaggen> Another thing... I tried openoffice.org2 the other day. What state is it in, or rather: do you want bugreports about it or is it too unstable and you know it?
[03:57] <seb128> sivang: I don't find the bug now
[03:58] <sivang> seb128: ok, I'll do a heavy search.
[04:01] <seb128> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2251
[04:01] <seb128> that's it
[04:02] <sivang> seb128: _thank_ you :)
[04:02] <seb128> pitti: and this bug is assigned to you
[04:02] <seb128> pitti: you should known about the comment :p
[04:03] <seb128> *g*
[04:06] <pitti> seb128: oh, THAT one
[04:06] <pitti> seb128: but that's something entirely different
[04:06] <pitti> seb128: #2251 talks about enabling broadcasts, sivang talks about enabling the admin stuff on the website
[04:09] <seb128> pitti: I speak about the comment #13
[04:10] <sivang> pitti, seb128 : going out for something urget for about 30 minutes, talk after.
[04:10] <tritium> wasabi, is something wrong with my setup, or are XML parsing errors common with yelp?
[04:10] <wasabi> me?
[04:11] <wasabi> oh hey seb left me as the maintainer.
[04:11] <pitti> thom: here?
[04:11] <tritium> wasabi, sorry
[04:11] <wasabi> tritium, I heard some talk about some bad XML somewhere. =)
[04:11] <tritium> wasabi, okay, thanks.  So seb128 is the new maintainer?
[04:11] <wasabi> Not exactly.
[04:11] <wasabi> Sorta.
[04:11] <pitti> seb128: "browsing" == automatic cups server detection with broadcast packets
[04:12] <pitti> seb128: that has got nothing to do with the web interface
[04:12] <wasabi> You'd be best using bugzilla I imagine.
[04:12] <tritium> wasabi, ok, thanks.
[04:12] <wasabi> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167808
[04:12] <wasabi> In fact...
[04:12] <seb128> pitti: ups
[04:12] <tritium> wasabi, that's it exactly
[04:13] <pitti> seb128: still, your comment as a gnome guru is appreciated :-)
[04:14] <seb128> k :)
[04:15] <thom> pitti: yeah
[04:15] <thom> (was just commenting on the punycode thing)
[04:17] <elmo_> Kamion: ?
[04:17] <thom> elmo_: thanks for the sync
[04:17] <elmo_> thom: screw you
[04:17] <elmo_> err, I mean no problem
[04:17] <smurfix> elmo_: was that a Freudian one or did you hit the wrong hotkey? ;-)
[04:18] <thom> chaaaarming
[04:18] <elmo_> thom: I just got "On battery, not fscking!" on the live cd on Davis.. is that your fault? :>
[04:18] <thom> urm, yeah. could be
[04:18] <thom> how the hell did you manage that?
[04:18] <elmo_> smurfix: dude, I just tried your keyboard selector thing - it got confused by me trying to use the shift key ("Keycode 54 not expected") - known bug?
[04:19] <elmo_> thom: what's to manage?  I booted daily live CD :>
[04:19] <smurfix> elmo_: I probably should implement a list of keycodes of modifier keys
[04:20] <smurfix> elmo_: or clarify that it asks you to hit the key with that symbol on it, not anything else
[04:21] <thom> elmo_: lamer.
[04:21] <thom> :-)
[04:21] <smurfix> elmo_: anyway why confused? it should just ignore the thing (other than showing the message).
[04:23] <elmo_> smurfix: yeah, clarification would be good
[04:23] <elmo_> smurfix: also, it'd be nice if the timer could not appear immeidately; as it is atm, it feels a bit pressured
[04:24] <elmo_> or if it didn't go down in second increments maybe
[04:24] <smurfix> elmo: Good idea, ten-second-decrements until one gets into single digits sounds OK, no?
[04:25] <ogra>  elmo_: still any robs with hwdb ?
[04:25] <ogra> s/robs/probs
[04:26] <elmo_> smurfix: sounds great
[04:26] <elmo_> thom: okay, prob is /proc/apm exists but is garbage
[04:26] <elmo_> probably because this G5 doesn't have normal PMU
[04:26] <thom> davis is g5, right?
[04:26] <thom> rm, right
[04:26] <thom> hrm, even
[04:26] <elmo_> ogra: haven't checked yet, will try and do in a bit
[04:27] <ogra> ah, great...didnt want to push you :)
[04:27] <elmo_> thom: yeah, /proc/pmu is SNAFU too - so it's a kernel wishlist thing, NYP
[04:28] <elmo_> is there anything fun/interesting I can do with the live CD beyond, err, boot it up? :)
[04:29] <elmo_> thom: http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/message/20050218.043453.b820f5e2.en.html
[04:31] <thom> ah, heh
[04:34] <enrico> Kamion: around?  At the docteam we'd like to make a checkpoint of the situation wrt our things and the freeze dates
[04:35] <dholbach> i'm out with murphy - see you later
[04:37] <elmo_> ogra: it FTBFS :(
[04:38] <elmo_> binary needs to depend on binary-indep not binary-arch in debian/rules
[04:45] <tseng> (Reading database ... dpkg: error processing openoffice.org2 (--remove):
[04:45] <tseng>  files list file for package `openoffice.org2-core' contains empty filenam
[04:45] <tseng> where is this file?
[04:45] <ogra> elmo_: gah.... i'll upload a new one this evening...
[04:45] <ogra> elmo_: thanks for looking
[04:49] <Mitario> hi everyone
[04:50] <mvo> hi Mitario
[04:54] <Kamion> elmo_: yo?
[04:54] <Kamion> elmo_: maybe see if you can do an apt-get upgrade successfully
[04:54] <Kamion> or install some other packages or something
[04:54] <Kamion> tseng: /var/lib/dpkg/info/openoffice.org2-core.list
[04:55] <tseng> Kamion: found that. its binary =/
[04:55] <Kamion> tseng: corrupt, then; I'd remove it and reinstall the package
[04:55] <Kamion> enrico: here
[04:55] <seb128> tseng: hey, new fspot to package :)
[04:55] <tseng> Kamion: thanks.
[04:55] <elmo_> Kamion: the yaboot text on the live cd still talks about 'linux' .. but the option it actually wants is (obviously) 'live'.. file a bug?
[04:55] <tseng> seb128: will do.
[04:55] <seb128> pitti: are you interested by my log too for the mount a few min after the login ?
[04:55] <seb128> thanks
[04:55] <pitti> seb128: sure, by any meams
[04:55] <pitti> means, even
[04:56] <pitti> seb128: it does not occur for me
[04:56] <Kamion> elmo_: fixed, thanks
[04:56] <enrico> Kamion: hi!  How's the status with the freeze?  Have the docteam packages we made been seen by someone, or mdz went in vacation just before receiving my mail about them?
[04:56] <seb128> pitti: k
[04:56] <Kamion> enrico: I haven't seen them or assigned anyone to look at them, so I don't know
[04:56] <Kamion> enrico: I would say that your packages are pretty low-risk with regard to the freeze, so they could go in late
[04:57] <enrico> Kamion: http://www.enricozini.org/store/mdz
[04:57] <Kamion> enrico: I wouldn't sweat it just at the moment, mdz'll be back in a day or two
[04:58] <enrico> Ok, so we can wait for him.  Also, it'd be important for us to know about other deadlines, such as having the docs ready for review or translation
[04:58] <elmo_> Kamion: the text could also IMO do with emphasizing Apple's more since I assume they're by far our most commonly used powerpc machine  - I suppose there's no hope of getting rid of the whole subarch selection thing and have it automated - maybe it could be a wishlist thing we could offer a bounty on ?
[05:00] <sivang> back
[05:01] <mantiena> guys, maybe someone could tell me which package should load TV card infrared module (ir-kbd-gpio or ir-kbd-i2c, see http://linux.bytesex.org/v4l2/faq.html#ir ) ? bttv module is loaded automatically, but IR module - not :(
[05:04] <tseng> seb128: update looks good, uploading
[05:04] <seb128> tseng: cool
[05:04] <Kamion> elmo_: we could bounty benh, but IBM might object ;)
[05:04] <tseng> someone wrote a review of hoary and lamented that f-spot and some other mono stuff wasnt on the livecd, heh
[05:05] <Kamion> elmo_: yeah, could you file a bug about the Apple emphasis and I'll rethink it?
[05:05] <elmo_> ok
[05:05] <elmo_> is the CD meant to appear on the desktop these days?
[05:07] <tseng> seb128: check that out
[05:08] <seb128> elmo_: yeah, but that's quite broken by inotify, should be better if you boot in "noinotify"
[05:08] <tseng> seb128: er wrong revision name
[05:08] <seb128> I'll fix it before uploading, don't bother
[05:08] <seb128> thanks
[05:08] <tseng> np
[05:09] <elmo_> hey! where did this thing get a configured resolv.conf from?  does it take from a linux fs if it finds it?
[05:09] <tseng> seb128: if you are still in contact with the debian maintainer you might show him my libgphoto2-sharp.dll.config fix.. the bug isnt obvious if you have libgphoto2-dev installed
[05:10] <elmo_> seb128: actually it appeared, I just didn't expect it to :)
[05:10] <seb128> oh, ok :)
[05:11] <Kamion> elmo_: netcfg probably did it
[05:11] <Kamion> via DHCP
[05:12] <elmo_> Kamion: ain't no DHCP server on the LAN
[05:13] <elmo_> no libgnome2-perl's on the CD so no gnome debconf frontend - or is that feature?
[05:13] <Kamion> probably bug
[05:14] <ogra> elmo_: depends on whom you ask ;-p
[05:14] <Kamion> no idea where else it might have got resolv.conf from
[05:14] <Mithrandir> elmo_: does the resolv.conf make sense for the lan?
[05:15] <Mithrandir> elmo_: it might have been copied as part of the cd bootstrapping process, possibly?
[05:16] <elmo_> Mithrandir: hmm, could be
[05:18] <thom> my god, it is *throwing* snow down outside
[05:18] <elmo_> dude, I know, I had to go and get lunch in this weather
[05:18] <elmo_> would it be too DWIMish to suggest that the live CD be ejected when the user selects "Restart computer"?
[05:18] <thom> it's settling too. score!
[05:19] <Mithrandir> elmo_: file bugs! :)
[05:19] <elmo_> Mithrandir: dude, I've got a very long list, which I'll post later and then file bugs on things that are bugs
[05:19] <elmo_> I'm just asking now about things I'm not sure about
[05:19] <Mithrandir> oh, ok.
[05:20] <Mithrandir> eject should be on the list
[05:21] <elmo_> crap how is 4pm already.  days have too few hours in them, that should be bug #2
[05:21] <thom> heh
[05:21] <Keybuk> yeah, I'm sure Mark would love to solve that one
[05:21] <Mithrandir> could I file a bug against gcc for taking too long to compile too?
[05:22] <sivang> hi jinty
[05:22] <elmo_> Kamion: do you know off hand which buildds are d-i/live buildds?  or rather which  ones aren't
[05:23] <jinty> sivang: hey
[05:23] <elmo_> argh, who killed esound?
[05:24] <elmo_> alsa is still playing at 1.2x speed on my shinybook :(
[05:24] <Kamion> elmo_: for d-i I have mcmurdo hooker ross yellow, for live I have terranova weddell adare king
[05:25] <elmo_> Kamion: cool, tnx
[05:25] <Kamion> elmo_: it attempts to eject the live CD just before rebooting; AFAIK it can't do it earlier than that
[05:25] <elmo_> oh - it doesn't seem to have worked on the amd64 box I just tried
[05:26] <elmo_> and shutdown plain didn't work on the G5
[05:26] <thom> waaaaaah
[05:26] <thom> apt-get source foo/warty really needs to work
[05:27] <Kamion> elmo_: talk to mdz about that one, I don't know how it works
[05:28] <elmo_> Kamion: yeah
[05:31] <pitti> seb128: re #2251, do you think that such a browsing checkbox would be easy?
[05:32] <seb128> probably yep
[05:33] <sivang> seb128: where should this checkbox be? (when adding a new printer? )
[05:34] <pitti> sivang: what do you think, shall we do that together?
[05:34] <pitti> sivang: I think it's a relatively important usability issue, so we should do it soon (for Hoary)
[05:34] <pitti> sivang: I code the backend with the conffile juggling, you do the gnome stuff?
[05:34] <sivang> pitti: I am interested in doing it
[05:34] <pitti> sivang: that'd be nice
[05:36] <zul> lamont been around today?
[05:46] <elmo_> hum. on second amd64 box, and the network is failing in a very strange way - I get destination unreachable for anything I ping - I don't THINK it's me being stupid
[05:51] <elmo_> Kamion: is the live CD meant to modprobe enough for me to be able to see my disks?
[05:52] <Kamion> elmo_: yes
[05:53] <elmo_> ok
[05:54] <Kamion> elmo_: is it not doing so?
[05:55] <elmo_> nope, mptscsih wasn't auto-loaded for this IBM e325
[05:55] <elmo_> it got mptbase tho
[05:59] <elmo_> gar.  I'm so stupid it hurts.  of course the network doesn't work WHEN YOU'RE IN A DMZ.
[06:03] <thom> *giggle*
[06:06] <elmo_> is there any point in me trying ia64?
[06:08] <pitti> Kamion: do you think "feature freeze" also covers things like #2251?
[06:08] <pitti> Kamion: I'm currently discussing with sivang how to make CUPS network printing easier
[06:09] <pitti> Kamion: it's relatively unintrusive, but it requires some UI changes and some CUPS modifications
[06:09] <sivang> Kamion: we've thought about adding a checkbox to the forntend to let the user choose if he wants to listen for printer info
[06:10] <pitti> sivang: btw, if we only offer "disabled" and "local network" then we should not display the radiobutton if the admin made custom settings in cupsd.conf
[06:11] <pitti> sivang: i. e. if get_browsing() returns -1, just display a note "manually configured" or similar
[06:11] <pitti> instead of the checkbox
[06:11] <Kamion> elmo_: mptscsih is a known bug, see #6786, and also UnhotpluggedDrivers in the wiki
[06:11] <sivang> pitti: right. the backend cannot cater for every possible setting :)
[06:12] <elmo_> Kamion: meh, you guys keep fixing bugs before I find them - where's the fun in that?
[06:12] <Kamion> pitti: I think UI changes are fine, for CUPS modifications might want to ask mdz when he gets back, I don't know much about it ...
[06:12] <ogra> heh
[06:12] <Kamion> elmo_: testing of ia64 would be useful, though
[06:13] <elmo_> ok
[06:13] <pitti> Kamion: I only want to change the conffile (you have to, to enable Browsing)
[06:13] <pitti> Kamion: no code changes
[06:13] <Kamion> pitti: um, can that be done without breaking the security policy?
[06:13] <pitti> Kamion: but I will ask mdz anyway, of course
[06:13] <pitti> Kamion: it will be disabled by default
[06:14] <pitti> Kamion: that's why we need the checkbox in the first place
[06:14] <pitti> Kamion: mdz quote: "...whether there is a simple way to inform the user
[06:14] <pitti> that browsing is disabled, and possibly provide a checkbox to enable it (with a
[06:14] <pitti> warning about the effect on security)"
[06:14] <Kamion> oh, I see
[06:14] <pitti> Kamion: the point is to make it easier to enable it
[06:15] <pitti> Kamion: I won't allow open ports by default *grin*
[06:15] <Kamion> I don't see a problem with doing that
[06:15] <pitti> okay, then we can start on it, thanks
[06:18] <pitti> sivang: hehe: cupsd.conf supports "Include"
[06:19] <pitti> sivang: so we can put the browsing configuration into a separate file and modify just that
[06:19] <sivang> pitti: yay!
[06:20] <sivang> pitti: so you don't have to do loops in the air to write such a complicated backend
[06:20] <pitti> sivang: right; I will modify the cups package to ship a separate browsing configuration
[06:21] <pitti> sivang: and Include that in cupsd.conf
[06:21] <sivang> pitti: cool
[06:21] <elmo_>  |  | Linux 2.6 [9600 baud serial console]  [Live]  [Text frontend]           |  |
[06:21] <elmo_>  |  | Linux 2.6 [9600 baud serial console]  [Live]                           |  |
[06:21] <elmo_> what's the difference? :)
[06:24] <sivang> elmo_: it's a gtk frontend now? ;-))
[06:24] <elmo_> over serial console? :P
[06:24] <pitti> gtk with ASCII backend
[06:24] <sivang> elmo_: frame buffer maybe?
[06:24] <sivang> :))
[06:24] <pitti> ascii art
[06:24] <sivang> ascii art RULEZ
[06:24] <pitti> mplayer -vo aa
[06:24] <sivang> pitti: this is SO amazing :-)
[06:25] <sivang> pitti: I dropped jaw when I first saw this _working_ on my machine.
[06:25] <Kamion> elmo_: newt vs. readline-ish text
[06:27] <Keybuk> mem
[06:27] <Keybuk> Totem could not play 'file:///media/IAUDIO/Misc/David Bowie - I Have Not Been To Oxford Town.mp3'.
[06:27] <Keybuk> Could not open resource for writing.
[06:27] <Keybuk> why the frak is it trying to open it for _writing_ ?
[06:27] <elmo_> Kamion: hum - 'No keyboard to configure' -> 'Installation step failed' ?
[06:27] <Treenaks> Keybuk: is it opening the file for writing, or the audio device?
[06:27] <sivang> hmm, cannot save files from the web in moz-ff anymore...
[06:28] <Keybuk> Treenaks: well, I'm guessing the file from the message
[06:28] <Treenaks> Keybuk: that'd be so wrong
[06:28] <pitti> lamont: ping
[06:28] <Keybuk> hmm, no; it can't open the audio device
[06:29] <Keybuk> esound is broken?
[06:29] <Treenaks> Keybuk: hoary switched to polypaudio afaik
[06:30] <elmo_> esound got removed and replace by polypaudio :(
[06:30] <Keybuk> hmm, I'm getting sound events
[06:30] <Treenaks> which may or may not be b0rken
[06:30] <elmo_> aiee
[06:30] <Keybuk> so why doesn't polypaudio do esound-fu ?
[06:30] <elmo_> I'm getting full on x prompts
[06:30] <elmo_> the horror.  I'm getting Debian flashbacks.
[06:33] <zul> heh..
[06:33] <elmo_> haha, whatever trick live cd does to switch to the live session (kexec?) doesn't work too well on ia64, the box just halts at that point
[06:36] <Keybuk> Feb 21 17:30:27 descent polypaudio[8368] : protocol-esound.c: Warning! Too many connections (10), dropping incoming connection.
[06:36] <Keybuk> jdub too
[06:36] <Keybuk> why the hell does he always recommend software that doesn't even work
[06:36] <tritium> Keybuk, I get that too :(
[06:36] <Keybuk> gamin and now polypaudio
[06:37] <Keybuk> I'm going to add a "did jdub suggest this?  REJECT" step to tech-board deliberations I think
[06:37] <pitti> Keybuk: in order to keep our jobs :-) if everything worked, we might lose it *hehe*
[06:37] <pitti> just kidding
[06:39] <kq> hello; my name is santiago roza and i'm a freelance writer for a latin american tech magazine.  i've been compiling a few (interesting?) suggestions, so i'm trying to contact some ubuntu developers in order to talk about them (if that's possible)
[06:40] <sivang> kq: send it to the documentation list<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and also to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>maybe, sounds very interesting :)
[06:41] <kq> ok then; thanks a lot
[06:42] <pitti> sivang, Kamion: argh, problem
[06:43] <pitti> gnome-cups-manager does not run as root, only with "lpadmin"
[06:43] <pitti> so the conffile snippet for browsing had to be group writeable for lpadmin
[06:43] <pitti> i. e. for practically any desktop user
[06:43] <pitti> and g-c-m can't restart cupsys
[06:44] <T-Bone> evening
[06:44] <pitti> Hi T-Bone
[06:45] <T-Bone> hi pitti
[06:48] <kq> maybe i could throw some of the suggestions here, for a little pre-feedback before i face the lions...  :P
[06:53] <Kamion> elmo_: keyboard> hm, what?
[06:53] <Kamion> pitti: that sounds like badness
[06:53] <pitti> Kamion: I don't really want to introduce a setuid wrapper for this
[06:54] <Kamion> elmo_: casper uses pivot_root, which works or you'd know about it (the installer wouldn't get past init); more likely to be cloop hosage
[06:54] <kq> or maybe i shouldn't, based on responses (or lack thereof)  :)
[06:55] <Kamion> kq: well, in general people prefer to be asked straight out rather than to be asked for permission to ask :-) go ahead and see if anyone's up to answering
[06:55] <Kamion> pitti: no, that feels wrong to me too, at least at this stage in the release
[06:56] <kq> i wasn't "asking for permission to ask"... i don't know what's the deal here, so i asked if this would be the proper place to discuss that
[06:56] <pitti> kq: sure, just go ahead
[06:57] <Kamion> yeah, this channel's fine
[06:58] <kq> well the first one might sound a little lame for experienced gnu/linux users, but i've seen a lot of people with this problem when test-driving ANY linux livecd...
[06:59] <kq> the system auto-mounts all their windows partitions, but they're nowhere to be found (unless you know what you're doing, of course)
[07:00] <kq> so i was thinking it wouldn't be so hard to make links to them, and place those links either on the desktop or "my pc" or any other common place
[07:00] <Kamion> kq: we don't have an answer to that just yet, and dealing more nicely with Windows partitions is an open bug (right now they aren't automounted at all)
[07:00] <Kamion> kq: when we do automount them, sticking links on the desktop will probably be a good idea, in particular because it avoids the hardest problems of what to call the mount points
[07:00] <kq> yeah i've seen they aren't automounted, but i guessed it was on the wishlist
[07:01] <kq> this other thing, i didn't know
[07:01] <kq> so i suggested it
[07:01] <Kamion> pitti: can gnome-volume-manager be made to deal with non-removable devices, or is there some other way to get the links onto the desktop nicely?
[07:02] <pitti> Kamion: right now it's a policy decision not to mount hard disk partitions with pmount
[07:02] <kq> and links to windows' "my documents" would be also nice... it's amazing how many people can't browse through their own hdd to find their documents folder
[07:03] <pitti> kq, Kamion: this _can_ be changed quite easily, but we don't want to mess up hard disk partitions by default
[07:03] <Kamion> pitti: yeah, absolutely
[07:03] <kq> the second suggestion would be a little harder to implement imo, but still rather useful... i already talked about it with the developer of zen linux and he liked it
[07:04] <dholbach> kq, another problem with it is writing on NTFS - people will want to save new files in "their documents"
[07:04] <pitti> Kamion: btw, this would be the second use case for "whitelist" support
[07:04] <Kamion> pitti: *nod
[07:04] <Kamion> *
[07:04] <pitti> Kamion: another guy asked me to add this feature to mount network block devices with pmount
[07:04] <pitti> could also be used for windows partitions
[07:04] <kq> yeah, but i didn't mean "mount ntfs partitions with write access by default"...
[07:04] <kq> the idea was that they could _find_ their files easily
[07:04] <pitti> ... which isn't possible anyway ATM...
[07:05] <kq> but of course they should save them somewhere else
[07:05] <pitti> kq: but that would be even more surprising
[07:06] <pitti> users should read and write their documents to one dir, not two :-)
[07:06] <kq> we're talking about a livecd
[07:06] <kq> you boot it...
[07:06] <kq> test-drive it (with your own files preferrably)
[07:07] <kq> then you might choose to install it
[07:07] <pitti> ah, hmm
[07:07] <pitti> thus _always_ mounting win partitions read only?
[07:07] <kq> that'd be my choice
[07:07] <Kamion> FAT32 partitions could be mounted read-write
[07:08] <kq> i'm not a coder, though... but seems like the sanest default
[07:08] <pitti> yes, but then it shuoldn't be done automatically
[07:08] <kq> yeah, fat should be read/write i guess
[07:08] <Kamion> people often create FAT32 partitions for shared use between Windows and GNU/Linux
[07:08] <pitti> I think it should be either "r/o by default" or "r/w" after explicit configuration
[07:08] <elmo_> Kamion: I sent mail - that should explain the keyboard thing better
[07:08] <Kamion> pitti: there's not much opportunity for explicit configuration here - it's not like you go through the partitioner
[07:09] <pitti> Kamion: I mean, remove the "ro" in fstab
[07:09] <kq> if it's not too hard to implement, r/w for fat and read-only for ntfs would be optimal...
[07:09] <pitti> hmm, this is still screwed
[07:09] <Kamion> r/w is sufficiently sane for FAT32 that we should use it by default, and NTFS should be r/o
[07:10] <pitti> Kamion: if we do this in the installer, then this breaks when the user changes his partitions (or reformats them with ntfs. etc.)
[07:10] <kq> it should have a nice clear "you can't write here" error message for ntfs
[07:10] <kq> something like...
[07:10] <pitti> Kamion: OTOH, if we do this with pmount, we had to change our pmount policy
[07:10] <kq> "writing on ntfs partitions from non-windows systems is not 100% safe unless blah..."
[07:11] <Kamion> pitti: that's why I was asking for some other way to put links on the desktop smoothly; TBH I think I'd rather not use pmount
[07:11] <Kamion> although I suppose pmount would make the partitions user-writable, which is kind of a necessity
[07:12] <Kamion> pitti: we're talking live CD here, not installer
[07:12] <pitti> Kamion: I think if /etc/fstab contained user-mountable partitions, they would be displayed in Places
[07:12] <pitti> Kamion: hmm, but live and installed system should behave the same
[07:12] <pitti> at least that's how it should be like IMHO
[07:13] <pitti> otherwise people will complain that it doesn't work in the installed system
[07:13] <kq> yeap... seems like the most logical choice
[07:14] <Kamion> pitti: true
[07:15] <Kamion> so put them in fstab with the 'user' flag set, and let something in the desktop stack mount them on demand?
[07:15] <pitti> that would work
[07:15] <pitti> g-v-m should already support that
[07:15] <pitti> Kamion: however, I'm still not sure that a static entry in fstab is the right thing
[07:16] <pitti> this will break as soon as the partitions get changed
[07:18] <Kamion> that goes for partitions selected for a given mount point in the installer, too
[07:18] <Kamion> IMHO automounting should be no different to explicit selection
[07:19] <kq> let me go off-topic for a couple seconds; maybe it's a stupid question (but i couldn't find the answer anywhere): was it _absolutely_ necessary to break 100% compatibility with debian (and its repositories i mean)?
[07:19] <Kamion> and I think we can live with it that way; most people don't rearrange partitions every day
[07:19] <Kamion> kq: yes, unfortunately
[07:19] <Kamion> kq: the alternative was changing every version number of every package
[07:19] <Kamion> or dropping the requirement that we build everything from source ourselves
[07:20] <kq> well i'm a newbie when it comes to gnu/linux
[07:20] <kq> but i've seen zen linux and it's 100% debian
[07:20] <pitti> Kamion: hmm, right
[07:20] <kq> although damn easy to use on boot, and very ubuntu-like in many aspects
[07:20] <Kamion> kq: perhaps they have different underlying constraints; for example they might not have the same flexibility to change everything in their own repository
[07:20] <kq> so i was just wondering...
[07:20] <elmo_> any distro that forks packages in a non-trivial way is de facto no longer 100% compatible with Debian
[07:21] <kq> and ubuntu had to fork packages in a non-trivial way because...?
[07:21] <Kamion> as I understand it, Zen build straight from the Debian archive; correct me if I'm wrong
[07:21] <kq> (i'm just asking; i don't know)
[07:21] <kq> yeap, it was build straight from the debian archive
[07:22] <Kamion> because we were doing lots of things that meant we couldn't sit around and wait for the Debian maintainer in question, we required the flexibility to make changes ourselves
[07:23] <elmo_> and there's other things too, like the p4 tuning
[07:24] <kq> aha... i thought debian had a huge repository, that's why i thought it was enough
[07:24] <kq> but again, you're the experts  :)
[07:24] <tseng> kq: not every package is changed from debian
[07:24] <Kamion> ultimately if you build from the Debian archive you have to play by Debian rules for every package; that's fine for many people, but it *does* impose constraints, and with a six-month release cycle we don't have a lot of space to wait
[07:24] <Kamion> so instead we compromised
[07:24] <tseng> kq: as each release cycle opens things are merged from debian to ubuntu taking into account any local changes
[07:25] <Kamion> we provide 'universe', which has everything in Debian, but rebuilt by us (and, in some cases - but by no means all - with Ubuntu-specific changes)
[07:26] <Kamion> and we merge regularly from Debian to make sure that we don't diverge forever and either (a) miss out on bug fixes or (b) forget to send our own changes back to Debian where applicable
[07:26] <Kamion> (the requirement to merge means that we have a positive incentive to send changes back, since then our merge job is simpler)
[07:28] <trukulo> hi ppl
[07:28] <zul> Kamion: for those hotplug bugs all you have to do is add a patch like in #6786
[07:28] <zul> hey lamont...finally :)
[07:28] <dholbach> wb ogra
[07:28] <ogra> hi
[07:29] <mjg59> zul: We need to get some DRM stuff from Xorg into the kernel
[07:30] <Kamion> zul: note that #6786 was by me ;)
[07:30] <kq> thanks for the explanation, kamion
[07:30] <trukulo> ogra, what about graveman in hoary? it's version 0.3.2
[07:30] <trukulo> in sid otavio has 0.3.8
[07:30] <Kamion> zul: I'm doing patches for the ones that represent installer regressions now
[07:30] <ogra> trukulo: nah, 0.3.6
[07:30] <pitti> Kamion: confirmed
[07:30] <Kamion> which I think is only three drivers
[07:30] <pitti> Kamion: as soon as tehre is an user-mountable vfat volume in fstab, g-v-m will automatically pick it up
[07:30] <trukulo> ogra, ah, ok, my fault then
[07:30] <ogra> trukulo: next week....
[07:30] <pitti> Kamion: and you have it in places, Computer, and the Desktop
[07:30] <trukulo> i'm uploading just now to hoary
[07:30] <Kamion> pitti: oh, cool, thanks!
[07:30] <trukulo> ogra, k, thanks
[07:31] <kq> my second suggestion, as i was saying, would be kinda hard to implement, but i'm sure it'd be very useful
[07:31] <pitti> Kamion: so in theory users would only need to setup their win partitions in the installer
[07:31] <Kamion> pitti: well, I'd really like this to be taken care of automatically
[07:32] <trukulo> pitti, that could be cool
[07:32] <pitti> Kamion: yes, that would certainly rock :-)
[07:32] <elmo_> hmm.  a big heavy metal slide door held up by a plastic tiewrap
[07:32] <Kamion> pitti: I can work on that in partman-auto or partman-basicfilesystems or wherever turns out to be appropriate, now that I know what to do
[07:32] <kq> from what i've seen, a significant % of livecd users don't just boot them once and install (or throw them away); on the other hand they boot a few livecds quite often
[07:32] <kq> why don't they just install them?  i wouldn't know... but it happens
[07:33] <pitti> Kamion: maybe vfat partitions can be pre-defined automatically in partmap
[07:33] <kq> and no matter how hard you optimize it, the boot process takes time
[07:33] <pitti> Kamion: then users can still tweak it, but have something to build on
[07:33] <kq> enter my solution  :P
[07:33] <Kamion> pitti: yeah, indeed
[07:34] <lamont> zul: it's like a holiday here, you know... :-)
[07:34] <zul> mjg59: what do you need
[07:34] <pitti> Kamion: argh, please hold on; I forgot to specify "noauto"
[07:34] <kq> since users don't change their hardware config every other day, it'd be cool if live distros could save certain autodetected data to a floppy disk, so it could be auto-read on boot (speeding up the process a lot)
[07:34] <zul> oh yes its presidents day
[07:35] <kq> like hardware.ubuntu, whatever.ubuntu, hardware.knoppix, etc
[07:35] <pitti> Kamion: however, enabling this in g-v-m is easy, even if it does not support hd-automounting right now
[07:35] <zul> Kamion: i was just thinking the advansys driver
[07:35] <pitti> Kamion: that feature existed once, but Debian disabled it
[07:35] <trukulo> kq, that's now new, others live-cds does it with usb-devices
[07:35] <pitti> lamont: oh, you have holiday today?
[07:35] <Kamion> kq: hardware detection is pretty fast nowadays; I'm not sure that the overhead of reading from a floppy disk (which, BTW, requires hardware detection before you can do it ...) wouldn't overshadow that
[07:35] <lamont> pitti: yeah
[07:35] <kq> i didn't mean the home directory
[07:35] <pitti> lamont: darn, cyrus-sasl doesn't build
[07:35] <lamont> which means I need to buy hay and such before the snow arrives tonight. :-(
[07:36] <kq> not the whole home directory at least
[07:36] <mjg59> zul: I'll try to sort a patch tonight
[07:36] <zul> mjg59: ok..
[07:36] <kq> just a couple basic files
[07:36] <mjg59> Is -20 out yet?
[07:37] <kq> and you wouldn't need a usb device
[07:37] <kq> it could be done with one by choice, but not necessarily
[07:37] <Kamion> kq: to be honest I think the time would be better spent, and more effective, speeding up the existing boot process; however if somebody wanted to prototype your suggestion I don't think we'd object
[07:37] <zul> mjg59: not yet..lamont is on slacking...er...holiday :)
[07:37] <Kamion> kq: there is a valid use case for saving user configuration to some kind of persistent medium, though
[07:37] <kq> well, the zen linux guy is gonna go for it
[07:37] <mjg59> Haha
[07:38] <mjg59> It'd be good to get the PPC stuff tested
[07:38] <kq> so you might wanna take a look when it's done
[07:38] <Kamion> Zen Linux' live CD is constructed quite differently isn't it? I don't think it uses casper
[07:38] <kq> and then decide if you like it or not
[07:38] <mjg59> I don't want to try pushing PPC hibernate support until I know we haven't damaged suspend to RAM
[07:38] <kq> i wouldn't know about its booting architecture...
[07:39] <Kamion> where is Zen's source?
[07:39] <pitti> Kamion: actually, the way I tested right now (without "noauto", i. e. mounted by /etc/init.d/mountall.sh) is not exactly bad
[07:39] <Kamion> pitti: it doesn't make the filesystems writable by the desktop user, though
[07:40] <pitti> Kamion: but it should be umask=000 anyway, shouldn't it?
[07:40] <pitti> Kamion: or do you want to restrict access to the first user who is logged in?
[07:40] <Kamion> that's horribly bad for something mounted permanently
[07:40] <Kamion> I want it to be mounted at login, and ideally mounted somewhere that other users can't see it
[07:40] <elmo_> Kamion: why is i386 live so much smaller than the others?
[07:41] <kq> i guess you'd have to ask the guy for his sources... it says it's released under the gpl, but the source is nowhere to be found
[07:41] <pitti> Kamion: hmm, okay. Then let's use g-v-m for this
[07:41] <Kamion> elmo_: powerpc has three times the number of modules and I guess amd64 just has fatter binaries
[07:41] <Kamion> kq: hm, not exactly the right spirit :(
[07:41] <kq> i know i know
[07:41] <dholbach> lamont, ping
[07:41] <kq> i never said it was right   :)
[07:41] <lamont> pitti: I believe that simply telling oo.o-amd64 to build on ia64 should actually fix 6438 :-)
[07:41] <lamont> dholbach: sup>
[07:41] <lamont> ?
[07:42] <pitti> lamont: you mean OO.o does work on ia64?
[07:42] <dholbach> lamont, could you recompile mplayer?
[07:42] <elmo_> Kamion: gar, right
[07:42] <kq> but i talked to him and he didn't seem like the kind of guy who'd do that... so i guess it's just a matter of bandwidth
[07:42] <dholbach> lamont, i guess i'm not allowed to upload to multiverse
[07:42] <lamont> pitti: I mean that the underlying libs are built on ia64, and ia64 has an ia32 emulation mode... hence....
[07:42] <Kamion> somebody should correct the bit in oo.o-amd64's source that refers to ftp.no-name-yet.com, BTW
[07:42] <lamont> dholbach: what exactly needs to change in mplayer?
[07:42] <dholbach> lamont, it's because of libavcodec (transition)
[07:42] <pitti> lamont: nice solution indeed :-)
[07:43] <dholbach> lamont, just recompiling
[07:43] <Kamion> kq: if he's just using Debian repositories, then the bandwidth for his source (presumably just the live CD infrastructure and the live CD -> HD installer) ought to be tiny compared to shifting lots of ISO images :-)
[07:43] <lamont> dholbach: I'll add that to today/tonight's list - I want to verify that it builds first, of course...
[07:43] <dholbach> lamont, i did it two weeks ago
[07:43] <Kamion> kq: (I know it isn't your fault)
[07:43] <dholbach> lamont, but can check too if you like
[07:44] <kq> i know you know; i was just saying  :)
[07:44] <kq> http://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/public/releases/ZenLinux_v1.0_Core_pkg_list.txt
[07:44] <kq> package list for zen 1.0
[07:44] <kq> (core... they have gnome and kde versions too)
[07:45] <Kamion> elmo_: could you check /etc/yaboot.conf for video=ofonly? it should've been passed through
[07:45] <kq> http://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/public/releases/ZenLinux_v1.0_Gnome_pkg_list.txt
[07:45] <kq> http://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/public/releases/ZenLinux_v1.0_KDE_pkg_list.txt
[07:45] <kq> no package lists for maintainance releases (up to 1.05 core)
[07:46] <kq> only a changelog
[07:46] <kq> http://www.zenlinux.org/drupal/?q=node/35
[07:46] <Kamion> oof, those files are in a painful format for automatic comparison, dpkg -l cuts off package names
[07:47] <kq> anyway... maybe it's a question of crappy low-end hardware, but on-boot detection wasn't all that fast in my experiences
[07:47] <kq> so i still think preloading it from a diskette would be faster (for certain configurations of course)
[07:47] <kq> and so did this guy, who seemed to have much more of an idea than i do  :)
[07:48] <kq> so i guess we'll just have to wait (till zen 1.1) and see
[07:50] <kq> he agreed on leaving the field open for all other live distros willing to implement/copy that feature (using per-distro names like hardware.zen, not _one_ fixed "hardware.blah" for all), which is fair i think
[07:51] <kq> but you guys don't seem interested in this feature _at all_, so i'll just shut up  :)
[07:51] <trukulo> kq, that's not gpl
[07:51] <kq> what's not gpl?
[07:51] <trukulo> obligation of credit on software
[07:51] <kq> i didn't say anything about that
[07:52] <trukulo> ah, sorry
[07:52] <kq> maybe i didn't express myself well
[07:52] <trukulo> you mean files
[07:52] <trukulo> ok
[07:52] <trukulo> i don't udernstand well
[07:52] <kq> (english is not my primary language as you might have noticed :) )
[07:52] <Kamion> we do need to speed up hardware detection, certainly; there's still a good bit of work that can be done on that easily I think
[07:53] <Kamion> the existing installation infrastructure is a fairly quick conversion of the Debian installer to hotplug, and I think there are quite a few delays that could be eliminated
[07:54] <kq> can i ask some other stupid question (but only if i promise your names will be credited eternally in some tech mag you'll never read)?  :P
[07:54] <kq> i can't find detailed info on the ubuntu-gnoppix issue
[07:54] <kq> it's not a merge it seems
[07:54] <Kamion> kq: (it's also worth noting that our main live CD guys aren't around at the moment, and haven't been throughout this conversation)
[07:54] <kq> so i was wondering what it was...  :)
[07:55] <kq> thanks for the notice
[07:55] <sivang> pitti: hrm, just read the backlog, then how can we tackle this?
[07:55] <kq> although i wouldn't know who you guys are... couldn't find a developers list, and even if i had, it wouldn't probably include irc nicknames  :)
[07:57] <Kamion> gnoppix is based on Ubuntu nowadays; I'm not sure it's a merge as such but they switched over to be based on Ubuntu and contribute development effort to us
[07:57] <mxpxpod> jbailey: ping
[07:57] <dholbach> kq,  /whois <nick>  helps most of the time :-)
[07:57] <kq> yeah i know whois; thank you  :)
[07:59] <kq> and why didn't they merge?  what are they doing that you're not, or viceversa?
[07:59] <kq> "doing" in a very broad sense of course
[07:59] <Kamion> I honestly don't know the details; they have a different established community, so a raw merge might not have been very easy to achieve
[08:00] <kq> so basically they're not merging just for the sake of having their very own distro  :P
[08:00] <kq> that, and the (un)cool name  :P
[08:04] <mantiena> guys, maybe someone could tell me which package should load TV card infrared module (ir-kbd-gpio or ir-kbd-i2c, see http://linux.bytesex.org/v4l2/faq.html#ir ) ? bttv module is loaded automatically, but IR module - not :(
[08:04] <kq> have you considered offering "not-so-official" isos with all that (vital) non-free stuff you probably couldn't include in main (java, flash, etc)?
[08:05] <kq> offering or "facilitating"... pick a word
[08:05] <trukulo> kq, it' not free software
[08:06] <kq> yeah i know that
[08:06] <kq> that's why i said "not-so-official"
[08:06] <kq> some distros bundle that...
[08:06] <trukulo> it's not legal, as i know
[08:06] <kq> depends on the country
[08:07] <kq> i'm damn sure it's not illegal in (let's pick a random country) argentina  :)
[08:07] <kq> that's why they can't take down sites like rarewares.org
[08:07] <Kamion> Canonical is a sufficiently large target to be worth suing
[08:08] <Kamion> frankly I'd rather its money went into continuing to fund Ubuntu development than into legal fees
[08:08] <trukulo> i prefer canonical boys working on free software
[08:08] <trukulo> not in facilitating closed solutions
[08:08] <kq> which offer not only source but binaries for things which are illegal somewhere else (rarewares is hosted in brazil afaik)
[08:08] <kq> i didn't say "in the main package"
[08:09] <Kamion> we're not hosted in Brazil, our master archive is in the UK which is not quite so lenient
[08:09] <kq> i know
[08:09] <kq> but ubuntu's not only uk-centered, is it?
[08:09] <Kamion> we've been asked about this multiple times, and the answer has consistently been "sorry, but no"
[08:09] <kq> maybe i didn't express myself corrently
[08:10] <Kamion> if our systems in the datacentre are taken away by the bailiffs, you'll find that it's more UK-centred than you might like to think :-)
[08:10] <kq> i wasn't asking for a version branded "ubuntu haxor"  :)
[08:10] <kq> although "ubuntu warez" would sound nicer  :P
[08:10] <kq> now seriously
[08:10] <kq> i just meant
[08:10] <Kamion> in the case of Java, we can't ship Sun Java because if we did so we wouldn't be able to ship free Java. We do have people working on improving the state of Java integration.
[08:11] <Kamion> there's plenty about all this on the wiki :)
[08:11] <kq> i know the reason why YOU can't
[08:11] <kq> i said " offering or "facilitating"... pick a word "
[08:11] <Kamion> in general, we are working on facilitating people who want to make derivatives of Ubuntu
[08:12] <kq> that was my question
[08:12] <Kamion> those derivatives could include pretty much whatever they want, so long as it's legal to distribute al
[08:12] <Kamion> ... at all
[08:12] <kq> if a 3rd party offered to bundle and host a derivative which would be illegal in the uk, but not in some other country, would you collaborate or sit around or sue them or what... that was pretty much it
[08:12] <herzi> seb128: ping
[08:13] <Kamion> I don't know how it would work if it were illegal in the UK but not elsewhere; that would get "interesting"
[08:13] <kq> and you've already answered (very precisely indeed); thanks
[08:13] <kq> well from the examples i know
[08:13] <kq> there's no way to sue the source
[08:13] <Kamion> but we'd have to consider that if/when it came up
[08:14] <kq> i could make arrangements to make it happen; i just needed to know if you were ok with it
[08:14] <kq> cause if you were gonna sue, well no freaking way i'll even try to pull my strings to get that thing done  :)
[08:14] <Kamion> I can't give you an authoritative answer, and as a UK resident I would rather not get into the details of things illegal in the UK :-)
[08:14] <kq> yeah i know
[08:15] <kq> i wasn't requiring you to sign anything  :)
[08:15] <Kamion> but Canonical wouldn't be the people with standing to sue, anyway
[08:15] <kq> well, i picked the wrong word
[08:15] <kq> change "sue" for "make the 'packer's life miserable"
[08:16] <Kamion> in general I'm sure we'd be willing to help people who are taking use cases off our back that we can't solve ourselves; to what extent and in what circumstances would probably have to be solved case-by-case, and in any case the infrastructure isn't quite ready yet. :)
[08:16] <kq> i can guarantee the source is un-sueable (that word can't exist...)
[08:16] <Kamion> zul: right - I'm doing the advansys patch now
[08:16] <herzi> kq: think of unbreak and any word can exist :)
[08:16] <kq> by "help" i just meant "let the guy live"  :)
[08:17] <Kamion> zul: would you prefer one patch per driver or a combined patch?
[08:17] <kq> but no one could ever sue you for that
[08:17] <zul> Kamion: one big chunk would be nice
[08:17] <Kamion> zul: well, I'll send you the ones that are installer regressions now, the rest I'll worry about later
[08:17] <kq> it's like... the faac or lame or xvid teams offering the source
[08:18] <zul> Kamion, ok
[08:18] <kq> and some other guys taking care of the not-so-legal parts, like compiling it and offering the binaries
[08:18] <kq> not the same scenario... but just an example
[08:19] <kq> i'll just make sure they don't brand it "ubuntu uber-warez linux" and that should do  :)
[08:19] <kq> but from what i've seen, many distros include not-so-legal stuff
[08:20] <Kamion> basically, we can't stop you *shrug*
[08:20] <kq> i played a couple mp3 with some test version of hoary... you guys are gangstas  :P
[08:20] <lamont> dholbach: /usr/lib/libavcodec.a(oggvorbis.o)(.text+0x46): In function `oggvorbis_encode_init':
[08:20] <lamont> : undefined reference to `vorbis_encode_init'
[08:20] <lamont> that's what I get...
[08:21] <trukulo> kq, there are no software patents in europe
[08:21] <trukulo> nor in uk
[08:21] <trukulo> by extension
[08:21] <kq> yes i am aware of that, thanks anyway
[08:21] <kq> but mp3 is licensed, not only patented
[08:21] <trukulo> at the moment
[08:21] <kq> at the moment... as long as poland keeps saving our ass  :)
[08:21] <trukulo> but players with reversed ingeniery are allowed in europe
[08:22] <trukulo> not only poland
[08:22] <kq> yeah i know
[08:22] <trukulo> spain, i.e. are aginst them too
[08:22] <kq> but they were the ones with the kodak-moment save  :)
[08:22] <trukulo> txo times, indeed
[08:22] <trukulo> teo times, i mean
[08:23] <trukulo> s/teo/two
[08:23] <dholbach> lamont, oh damn :-/
[08:24] <kq> i even wrote an editorial about that... but my audience is mostly newbies, thank god none of you will ever read that   :)
[08:24] <zul> depends on the article and if its in english :)
[08:25] <kq> it's in spanish and i wouldn't bother myself if i were you... it's for a completely different audience
[08:25] <kq> (but someone has to do it... i'd rather dumb stuff down as much as needed, than keep it completely away from the masses)
[08:26] <kq> anyway... miguel de icaza liked the one about him, so bite me  :P
[08:27] <Kamion> lamont: are you doing the oo.o-amd64/ia64 thing, or leaving it to somebody else?
[08:27] <herzi> dholbach: haste mal ne minute fuer mich?
[08:27] <dholbach> herzi, bin grad am telefon - 10 minuten
[08:28] <herzi> k
[08:28] <kq> please don't... or the uninvited guest will start with the spanish, and you'll all ask for redemption  :P
[08:28] <trukulo> kq, let them work
[08:29] <kq> well i didn't think that'd be taken seriously...
[08:31] <kq> since you've been spoiling me so far, i'm gonna add yet another stupid question...
[08:31] <lamont> Kamion: I'm backed up behind kernel stuff - hoping someone else will care enough to do it.
[08:32] <kq> the recent hype about ubuntu is just amazing, and i wondered if you could explain the reasons to a certain extent, or just think "it happened"
[08:32] <dilinger> lamont: oh, if that was the case, my life would be so much easier :P
[08:32] <kq> i already know it's a great distro, btw  :)
[08:34] <sivang> pitti: I have two init.d entries for postgres, should there be only one? I have postgresql and postgresql-7.4
[08:34] <seb128> herzi: pong
[08:34] <herzi> seb128: can you take a quick look at 4079?
[08:35] <lamont> right.   off to get hay.  bbiab
[08:35] <seb128> herzi: sure
[08:35] <kq> but... it's apt-based (while rpm was the choice for lsb), gnome-based (while everyone seemed to be loving kde), it breaks debian compatibility (although you already taught me it was absolutely necessari), and it doesn't auto-mount windows partitions...
[08:35] <kq> *necessary
[08:36] <kq> so i was wondering if maybe there was a reason for all this hype, maybe some technical reason beyond my reach
[08:36] <trukulo> kq, maybe lol
[08:36] <Kamion> it doesn't really break Debian compatibility in the ways that actually count; sure, you can't use Debian repositories, but universe exists so that you don't need to
[08:37] <kq> tha'ts why i'm asking the experts  :)
[08:37] <seb128> herzi: we use 0ubuntu1 as version to not conflict with debian -1
[08:37] <kq> i'm not complaining about the debian thing... i already said i was a newbie
[08:37] <Kamion> and you can use third-party repositories that were created for use with Debian
[08:37] <kq> i was just pointing out (arguable) issues
[08:37] <herzi> seb128: is there a document in the wiki with answers to my questions?
[08:37] <seb128> herzi: what questions ?
[08:38] <herzi> how to get packages into ubuntu
[08:38] <dholbach> herzi, what's up?
[08:38] <trukulo> helix, how to contribute?
[08:38] <trukulo> i mean, herzi, not helix
[08:38] <herzi> trukulo: yepp
[08:39] <seb128> herzi: you want to maintain it in universe ?
[08:39] <dholbach> herzi, wiki/MOTU is the way to go :-)
[08:39] <seb128> herzi: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTURecruitment/
[08:40] <zul> herzi, or #ubuntu-motu
[08:40] <Kamion> kq: I could probably come up with lots of reasons, but just consider based on your own arguments: if everybody else is doing RPM and KDE (which wasn't really the case, actually, but let's pretend it was for the moment), then wouldn't that mean that that market was too saturated to allow another player to gain any useful share?
[08:40] <kq> i'm not trying to start an argument; sorry if i wasn't clear
[08:41] <Kamion> nor am I, but I think my point is valid :) there was a gaping hole waiting for us to step into it
[08:41] <kq> i'm just trying to get answers from people who knows (an awful lot) more than i do
[08:41] <kq> i may be a newbie, but i'd take apt over rpm and gnome over kde any day...
[08:42] <seb128> herzi: the package looks good. for the copyright you should copy the text (ie: /usr/share/debhelper/dh_make/licenses/gpl) and the cdbs rules is enough :)
[08:42] <kq> and i never said everyone was using rpm and kde
[08:42] <kq> i just said rpm was chosen as the standard package format for lsb...
[08:42] <Kamion> well then, you're a perfect example of why there was a niche open. :)
[08:43] <kq> so that could be it?  you guys came up with a very good and (reasonably) easy-to-use debian-based apt + gnome distro...
[08:43] <Kamion> there's a common misconception that LSB mandates that compliant distros have to use RPM themselves - it never did, it just said they had to support RPM. From some points of view it makes sense for them to pick the least capable of the popular formats, so that everyone could support it
[08:44] <Kamion> kq: that was certainly the intention, yes :)
[08:44] <Kamion> giving CDs away can't have hurt either, but there was a fair bit of buzz before we started doing that
[08:44] <kq> that was certainly the intention... ok so i'm a newbie but i'm kinda getting it, finally  :P
[08:45] <kq> imho the marketing/pr role of the ubuntu "people" is great, and a key factor too... but that's just my opinion
[08:46] <kq> *marketing/pr performance
[08:47] <Kamion> I think also we were the first big Debian derivative to actually work with lots of Debian developers
[08:47] <Kamion> I mean, be worked on by
[08:47] <pitti> sivang: hmm, that should only be postgresql-7.4
[08:47] <pitti> sivang: the old "dpkg does not delete conffiles" bug
[08:47] <pitti> sivang: thanks, I'll fix this
[08:47] <sivang> pitti: so another bug for the upgrade path?
[08:47] <kq> and there's the technical reason a newbie could never come up with... there's a reason why i was asking  :)
[08:48] <sivang> pitti: yay cool, happy to be of service for this wonderful pkgs :)
[08:48] <pitti> sivang: it does not do any harm, but it should be cleaned up
[08:49] <pitti> sivang: re gcm, I have no idea
[08:50] <sivang> pitti: :-/
[08:51] <Kamion> kq: I'm not sure it's *entirely* a technical reason :)
[08:52] <kq> yeah, well, "technical"... not the word
[08:52] <kq> "unavailable for the uninitiate"...?  :)
[08:55] <kq> browsing through "debian's women"... man i wanna marry hanna wallach  :P
[08:55] <kq> anyway, now seriously
[08:56] <kq> if i know this app i'm sure you know it aswell (and better)... do you plan to bundle gparted in ubuntu, by default?
[08:56] <kq> cause i noticed a disappointing lack of partition management tools in linux livecds
[08:56] <dredg> apt-cache says: gparted - partition editor for GNOME
[08:56] <kq> and gparted delivers (unlike some others)
[08:58] <kq> partition magic replacement is yet another cool use for a livecd i guess
[09:00] <Kamion> I think gparted's probably a good thing to promote to main post-hoary
[09:00] <kq> why _post_ hoary (pardon me)?
[09:01] <kq> would it be hard to add or something?
[09:01] <Kamion> we're way, way past the deadline for adding major stuff to hoary
[09:01] <kq> my spider-sense tells me i won't get much love in this channel  :P
[09:01] <kq> but seriously, i don't wanna be a nag
[09:01] <Kamion> you're not, I'm just giving the facts :)
[09:02] <Kamion> the only way to do a six-month release schedule is to be really hard-arsed about deadlines :-)
[09:02] <kq> i'm just (really really) interested in ubuntu's development, not trying to bother anyone with stupid questions and/or requests...
[09:03] <kq> btw, what does "ubuntu" mean?  :P
[09:03] <Kamion> it's a perfectly reasonable question; you might like to check http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule
[09:03] <kq> (just kidding; don't shoot)
[09:04] <Kamion> we may well (ab)use the gparted widgets somehow once we do a graphical installer
[09:04] <kq> yeah but i meant in addition to the install version
[09:05] <kq> remember i'm into the livecd  :)
[09:05] <Kamion> sure, I know; it would reach the normal distribution first, if anything
[09:05] <kq> as a matter of fact i'd like to see them become one
[09:05] <Kamion> (since the installer piece is much harder to do)
[09:05] <kq> but i guess it's a major pain
[09:05] <Kamion> they're very close to one :)
[09:05] <Kamion> that was what the rearchitecture of the live CD for hoary was all about
[09:06] <Kamion> we use the first half of the installer to bring up a system that's a literal Ubuntu desktop installation plus a very few extra selected packages
[09:06] <kq> but i'ma have to talk to the livecd guys to get them to buy into my floppy-configs idea  :P
[09:06] <Kamion> anyway, gotta go to karate, back in 2 hours
[09:06] <kq> good luck, and thanks for all
[09:07] <kq> not just the answerss
[09:07] <kq> *answers
[09:07] <kq> mostly for ubuntu; that's a slightly bigger contribution to the world than answering my questions  :)
[09:12] <kq> damn, who will i bother now...?  :P
[09:14] <kq> could anyone please tell me who're the guys (mostly) in charge of the livecd part (autodetection, booting, etc) of ubuntu, and when could i find them here (that, considering they hang out here)...?
[09:36] <amu> kq: what's about, write your idea's to the wiki? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCD/
[09:36] <dholbach> does anyone have the time to explain briefly how to generate patches used in a cdbs--tarball--simple-patchsys---environment?
[09:37] <jbailey> dholbach: What I usually do is get the tarball unpacked and the current patches applied.  Copy the file to a .old version.  Make the diff from in the root of the build-tree and stuff it into debian/patches in a numbered form to preserve sort order.
[09:39] <dholbach> jbailey, thanks... i'll try your explanations :-)
[09:39] <jbailey> dholbach: np.  Ping here again if you need more help.
[09:39] <dholbach> jbailey, right
[10:01] <dholbach> jbailey, thank you VERY much - it worked *WOOHOO!*
[10:09] <zul> later bbl
[10:11] <kq> amu: thanks a lot (took me a while to answer; i was at some other thing), but i'd rather talk to them personally... it's much easier to agree that way
[10:17] <amu> kq: the better way, write down your idea's, place it to the wiki, point the people to there, also tell others ( in the mailling list ) about it. Otherwise you've to wait weeks/month someone has time to listen your idea. Ex. i missed them
[10:17] <kq> yeah you're write
[10:18] <kq> *right
[10:18] <kq> it's just that i've been contributing to much smaller projects, and i must have gotten used to that way
[11:13] <Kamion> lamont: hope #6681 is in time for today(?)'s kernel upload
[11:15] <lamont> Kamion: so far, everything is. :-)
[11:15] <lamont> today is probably late late tonight
[11:22] <Kamion> ah, right
[11:22] <Kamion> I've checked how modules.pcimap looks after that patch and the mptscsih one; looks OK to me
[11:23] <Kamion> lamont: I guess somebody without an ia64 wouldn't be much use at doing the oo.o-amd64 thing?
[11:24] <Kamion> I *could* just do it, but it's a big mirror hit if I get it wrong ...
[11:25] <lamont> Kamion: my mirror is almost kinda current - I figure I'll add it to my list after the kernel upload
[11:26] <Kamion> ok, I think it'd be a really big step to convincing everyone that ia64 is releaseable
[11:28] <lamont> mjg59: you around?
[11:28] <mjg59> lamont: Yo
[11:35] <ogra> 00
[11:35] <ogra> ######################+
[11:35] <dholbach> i guess that was the new cat :-)
[11:35] <Kamion> ajmitch: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/m/muine/0.8.2-4ubuntu1/muine_0.8.2-4ubuntu1_20050219-0137-i386-failed
[11:35] <Kamion> ajmitch: should muine build-dep on libgtk-cil rather than libgtk2.0-cil?
[11:35] <ogra> oops, sorry...my ne housemate
[11:35] <dholbach> haha
[11:35] <ogra> s/ne/new
[11:37] <ajmitch> Kamion: no
[11:37] <ajmitch> Kamion: I've uploaded gtk-sharp-unstable
[11:37] <ajmitch> but it hasn't appeared yet
[11:39] <lamont> ajmitch: new?
[11:40] <ari> how come GIMP is listed on the bounties page under Python scripting projects?
[11:40] <ajmitch> lamont: yep
[11:41] <sivang> ari: because there is a wish to create a DOM spec that would allow programs such as gimp and the other listed there to be used from one std. and agreed API common to all of them , I think
[11:41] <ari> ah.
[11:42] <sivang> ari: sorry, that would allow scripting those programs from one coherent api
[11:47] <Kamion> ajmitch: ah, ok
[11:49] <lamont> Kamion: is the patch for 6681 stolen from head, or is it our own?
[11:50] <Kamion> lamont: I wrote it today
[11:50] <lamont> cool
[11:50] <lamont> i386 patch, yes?
[11:51] <lamont> Kamion: added
[11:52] <lamont> Kamion:  you know that -20 is unlikely to finish building everywhere before the daily build tomorrow morning, yes?
[11:52] <ajmitch> bbl
[11:52] <lamont> Kamion: thoughts on 6786?
[11:52] <Kamion> lamont: that's ok; it changes ABI anyway, right?
[11:53] <Kamion> lamont: #6786 is pretty much the same thing, I wrote that patch today too
[11:53] <lamont> yeah - abi bump in -20
[11:53] <Kamion> ok, so I need to rev debian-installer for that anyhow
[11:58] <zul> hey


[02:57]  * MarkDude checked calendar, Wolverhamton chiding. https://twitter.com/TheCommunitizer/status/688553688856571905 Taking your Community to 11
[02:58] <MarkDude> Its not just us Yanks that think Nigel sounds like Jono? (-:
[04:33] <mapps> hi all
[10:24] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[19:19] <mapps> hi all:D
[19:34] <penguin42> hey mapps
[19:47] <mapps> sup mate
[19:49] <penguin42> not much
[19:49] <penguin42> I'm fighting my phones kernel build
[19:51] <pwaring> fun way to spend a sunday evening :)
[19:51] <pwaring> (he says, battling with WordPress)
[19:52] <popey> penguin42, OPO?
[19:53] <penguin42> popey: Yeh
[19:53] <penguin42> popey: They released a new set of kernel source which I've factored out so I can see the bits they changed - which is actually pretty small - and I've got it rebuilt, but the usb and wifi isn't working yet
[19:54] <popey> aww
[19:54] <penguin42> yeh the wifi isn't too much of a surprise since it looks like it was a module, but the usb - hmm that's a pain
[19:54] <penguin42> probably a config option, or a mismerge or something
[19:55] <zmoylan-pi> a proper old fashioned 9600baud serial cable will see you through... :-P
[19:55] <penguin42> zmoylan-pi: There doesn't seem to be a db25 anywhere
[19:55]  * popey breaks out his RS232 cable
[19:55] <zmoylan-pi> some disassembly may be required... :-)
[19:56] <penguin42> zmoylan-pi: Yeh I've added serial to a nook - but my soldering is pretty awful, and I really dont want to do that to my good phone
[19:56] <zmoylan-pi> think of the geek cred when people see you've added a 25 serial connection to your phone :-)
[19:57] <penguin42> zmoylan-pi: There used to be subminature db-9 that would actually fit
[19:57] <penguin42> they were tiny
[19:58] <zmoylan-pi> they made serial connections for some very weird small places as it was so handy...
[19:58] <penguin42> yeh
[20:00] <zmoylan-pi> these days i slum it by using the camera on devices to transfer data in qr codes when i can't get a connection... :-)
[20:01] <penguin42> zmoylan-pi: Well, seriously, serial over the LEDs to get stuff out would be nice, but I'm not sure if there's anything to do serial in over the camera; I've heard optical serial being done on meters and I think the little embedded devices (oh what was the name of that thing...)
[20:01]  * zmoylan-pi really misses ir transfers on palm and psion...
[20:02] <penguin42> hmm, I wonder if it has a separate sensor for backlight brightness
[20:49] <diddledan> I found grey hairs today :-(
[20:50] <diddledan> I guess I'm getting old...
[20:51] <zmoylan-pi> the name moylan means son of the bald man, i'm just glad to find hair :-)
[20:54] <diddledan> lol
[20:54] <diddledan> I've been losing my fringe for some time, but greys are new to me
[20:54] <diddledan> I was expecting to go bald before grey
[20:56] <zmoylan-pi> don't worry... it's when the grey hairs in your ears and nose are more noticeable that you can start to worry... :-)
[20:56] <diddledan> :-p
[21:09] <mapps> man im tired
[21:09] <mapps> got up early to go for brunch
[21:09] <mapps> O_o
[21:11] <mapps> got up early to go for brunch
[21:51] <diddledan> got up twice? :-p
[23:05] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[23:12] <diddledan> mownin
[23:16] <svea> afternoon.
[23:17] <svea> ok its eening here but its afternoon somewhere
[23:17] <svea> evening***
[23:19] <Myrtti> Universal Greeting Time
[23:20] <diddledan> it's derived from caveman days when they'd just yell "ugt" at each other, and hence UGT (Universal Greeting Time) was born
[23:23]  * diddledan stares at misogynistic terms in the eye
[23:23] <diddledan> caveperson**
[23:25] <mapps> morning
[23:42] <popey> .oO( I should probably go to bed )
[23:47] <diddledan> aye
[23:47] <diddledan> sleepy moo
[23:55] <mapps> finished daddys home
[23:55] <mapps> cool film