[02:25] <Unit193> Reminder of the meeting tomorrow, Thursday, June 13 at 15:00 UTC.
[03:35] <pleia2> oh bother, that's the break-o-dawn meeting
[03:35] <pleia2> (well, 8AM)
[03:48] <Unit193> Yeah, I'll have to read scrollback...
[03:51] <Unit193> About the LTS/normal subpoints, 1. Yes  2. No  3. No
[06:00] <gry> Meeting in this channel?
[06:00] <Unit193> Yes indeed.
[09:02] <Noskcaj> Why does the default mouse theme not have a preview?
[09:10] <Noskcaj> elfy, i've put up another xubuntu related manual test, would you mind proof-reading it for me?
[13:59] <GridCube> :) hi
[14:00] <elfy> hi GridCube
[14:09] <ochosi> meeting in 50mins, right?
[14:09] <knome> yes
[14:10] <knome> zequence, that's completely fine. do whatever you want with it (just keep attribution and i'm happy)
[14:10] <knome> fix what?
[14:11] <zequence> knome: Wow. that reply was dealyed. Have you been on vacation?
[14:11] <knome> zequence, at summer cottage since friday :)
[14:11] <GridCube> o: knome @'ed himself!
[14:11] <ochosi> yeah, guess he's changing the topic...
[14:12] <knome> that's it
[14:12] <zequence> the summer has really started well up here in the north. hot days..
[14:12] <GridCube> o: knome de@'ed himself!
[14:13] <knome> GridCube, is that a script or should i just slap you? :P
[14:13] <knome> zequence, yes, though it rained quite a lot yesterday ;)
[14:14] <GridCube> P: none of the above
[14:16] <zequence> knome: I think more rain might be coming soon. It was heading that way (was raining early today)
[14:16] <knome> zequence, i've no idea. i haven't read/watched the news since friday :)
[14:17] <zequence> it's tough being disconnected from the collective
[14:18] <zequence> my vacation this year will be DebConf13 :P
[14:18] <bluesabre> s/tough/refreshing
[14:18] <knome> very refreshing!
[14:19] <knome> no computers, no internet, no stupid work things to think about...
[14:19] <zequence> knome: did you go fishing, or you just hanged around the house?
[14:19]  * micahg-work can't promise to be around for the whole meeting, but will try
[14:20] <bluesabre> same here
[14:21] <micahg-work> ochosi, you should be able to push a raring branch on your own for xubuntu-artwork
[14:21] <knome> zequence, mostly hanged around. played board games, ate, went to sauna
[14:21] <micahg-work> just branch from the last raring commit
[14:22] <zequence> knome: Ah, yeas. sauna, and some fresh air
[14:22] <knome> that's all you need!
[14:23] <knome> i need to update packages
[14:23] <knome> and eat something
[14:23] <knome> brb
[14:25] <ochosi> micahg-work: well i pushed a commit recently that isn't included in raring (at least not yet)
[14:25] <micahg-work> ochosi, that's fine, just keep pushing stuff there
[14:25] <micahg-work> I can branch raring later
[14:25] <ochosi> ok
[14:25] <micahg-work> or you can
[14:25] <ochosi> you mean saucy?
[14:26] <micahg-work> ochosi, no
[14:26] <ochosi> ah right
[14:26] <micahg-work> devel release is trunk
[14:26] <ochosi> yeah
[14:26] <ochosi> ok, then i'll just keep pushing stuff there
[14:58] <pleia2> morning
[14:59] <knome> pleia2, hey!
[14:59] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[14:59] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun 13 14:59:14 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:59] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[14:59] <lderan> Hello
[14:59] <knome> #chair pleia2
[14:59] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome pleia2
[14:59]  * skellat is present for the meeting
[15:00] <Joshun> hi
[15:00] <knome> #topic Items carried on
[15:00] <knome> no items carried on.
[15:00] <knome> #topic Team updates
[15:00] <knome> please use #info and #action for team updates
[15:00] <knome> anybody has any news since the three nights of xubuntu?
[15:01] <pleia2> yeah, some marketing
[15:01] <bluesabre> hey everyone :)
[15:01] <pleia2> #info Contacted unixstickers.com and they're happy to do case badges :) plus send us some for free (instead of straight cash profit sharing)
[15:02] <knome> \o/
[15:02] <knome> sounds good
[15:02] <ochosi> knome: what kind of news are you looking for? :)
[15:02] <knome> ochosi, team updates eg. "what have you done" ?
[15:03] <ochosi> right
[15:03] <ochosi> i fixed multi-monitor support of plymouth
[15:03] <pleia2> they did ask that we promote them somehow, so we can chat about that later (link, blog post)
[15:03] <ochosi> oh, sry pleia2
[15:03] <pleia2> no, go for it
[15:03]  * ochosi thought you were done
[15:03] <pleia2> sorry :)
[15:03] <knome> pleia2, we will definitely want to link them, otherwise it's hard for people to find those stickers :P
[15:03]  * pleia2 nods
[15:03] <knome> pleia2, btw, would they do regular stickers as well?
[15:03] <skellat> #info Merge proposed for the seed to put apt-offline in.  Bug placed to update the metapackage.  Waiting for action on the merge which will then allow the metapackage update to happen later.
[15:04] <ochosi> #info Improved multi-monitor support for our Plymouth theme
[15:04] <bluesabre> I've started doing some sponsored packaging on debian, learning the ropes
[15:04] <knome> yay bluesabre
[15:04] <knome> bluesabre, can you #info that?
[15:04] <ochosi> #info Started a new icon-theme addon for our default icon theme that will make some of the toolbar-icons monochrome
[15:04] <pleia2> knome: could do, only was focusing on casebadges for now since that's what we're struggling with quality-wise
[15:05] <elfy> #Manual testcases being created for Xubuntu apps
[15:05] <ochosi> #info Greybird and Bluebird (from git) now support Gtk3.8
[15:05] <bluesabre> #info Started doing some sponsored packaging on debian
[15:05] <elfy> #info Manual testcases being created for Xubuntu apps
[15:05] <bluesabre> #info LightDM GTK+ Greeter 1.6 released, probably not in repos yet
[15:05] <elfy> #info Autopilot testing being looked at by lderan
[15:05] <skellat> #info Got sponsored sync from Debian Experimental completed of apt-offline 1.3 to Ubuntu archive.  1.3 has been in experimental since January.  Tested it for a while in my testing PPA and it did not explode so requested and received sync.
[15:05] <ochosi> #info Trying to fix suspend and hibernate in light-locker, so we can use lightdm as lockscreen in Xubuntu and (finally) drop xscreensaver
[15:06] <pleia2> so much good news!
[15:06] <knome> yes!
[15:06] <lderan> woo \o/
[15:06] <knome> i should leave the team to work on things more often it seems :P
[15:06] <bluesabre> nah, finished those things weeks ago :P
[15:06] <knome> haha
[15:06] <knome> thanks for the support to have a break ;)
[15:07] <pleia2> clearly the answer is fewer meetings :)
[15:07] <knome> probably
[15:07] <knome> anything else?
[15:07] <micahg-work> :(  I like xscreensaver...
[15:07] <knome> aww
[15:07] <knome> #chair micahg-work
[15:07] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome micahg-work pleia2
[15:07]  * micahg-work doesn't need to be a chair
[15:07] <pleia2> I won't miss the "omg fire" reactions from users
[15:08] <knome> meetingology, no, but i usually add any team leads who are around as chairs.
[15:08] <meetingology> knome: Error: "no," is not a valid command.
[15:08] <knome> micahg-work too
[15:08] <skellat> #info Pondering what to do about the shift to chromium in the base Ubuntu seed.  Will need to coordinate with Micah Gersten and Lionel LeFolgoc about possible doing an exclusion in the Xubuntu seed to ensure we keep Firefox in our install if we so choose instead of inheriting from the base.
[15:08] <knome> #chair ochosi
[15:08] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome micahg-work ochosi pleia2
[15:08]  * micahg-work isn't even a team lead...
[15:08] <ochosi> micahg-work: i don't like that it's impossible to change anything about xscreensaver
[15:08] <elfy> lot of chairs
[15:08] <knome> haha
[15:08] <knome> you are correct.
[15:08] <micahg-work> ochosi, what do you mean?
[15:09] <knome> #chair skellat elfy lderan
[15:09] <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome lderan micahg-work ochosi pleia2 skellat
[15:09] <knome> :P
[15:09] <ochosi> micahg-work: style-wise, you can't even remove the stupid xscreensaver-logo (the firery thing pleia2 mentioned)
[15:09] <ochosi> micahg-work: and i'd argue that there is some (visual) consistency to using the login-screen as lock-screen
[15:09] <knome> anyway... if we have broader issues, can we discuss them in "new items", or in smaller groups less officially after the meeting?
[15:10] <ochosi> sure
[15:10] <knome> #topic Announcements
[15:10] <knome> #subtopic Xubuntu release team
[15:10] <knome> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-release
[15:10] <micahg-work> ochosi, sounds like a feature request for jwz?
[15:10] <knome> There's now a Xubuntu release team
[15:11] <bluesabre> \o/
[15:11] <knome> this team is able to set images ready for release in the iso tracker
[15:11] <knome> it will always consist of the XPL, the testing lead and one or two developers
[15:12] <bluesabre> sounds handy
[15:12] <knome> basically it will need to be people who are aware of the state of the images near the (milestone) releases to be able to make informed decisions
[15:13] <knome> so far i'm the only one in the team, but i'll add elfy today after we've officially agreed that my proposal is fine
[15:14] <knome> is there anybody who disagrees with xubuntu release team being XPL + testing/QA lead + some developer(s)
[15:14] <knome> (with arguments, please :P)
[15:14] <GridCube> not me :)
[15:14] <lderan> nope sounds good to me
[15:14] <bluesabre> +1
[15:14] <knome> also, is there a developer (micah, sean) who would like to be in the team?
[15:15] <bluesabre> I'd like to be on it, but I am not an official "Xubuntu developer" yet
[15:15] <knome> yes, i would say it would be good to have somebody with upload rights on the team
[15:16] <micahg-work> I'm not around enough during release time to be able to keep track of everything
[15:16] <knome> if and as it seems bluesabre is getting them sooner or later, i wouldn't mind if bluesabre was the one in the team though
[15:16] <micahg-work> I don't think upload rights inherently matter
[15:16] <knome> no, but it would be ++
[15:16] <micahg-work> you can't "upload" images
[15:16] <knome> no, but you can upload things that can fix images
[15:17] <knome> or things in images
[15:17] <knome> my argument is that it would be handy to have somebody who is both aware of the situation and able to fix things
[15:17] <knome> to avoid stupid bugs getting in
[15:17] <skellat> We can still handle bug killing through normal processes
[15:18] <bluesabre> Still dependent on somebody with upload rights for anything Xubuntu-specific
[15:18] <knome> skellat, usually, but as we have seen, it can be a pain in the back if we don't have people with upload rights around and we're really close to a (milestone) release
[15:18] <knome> of course we don't want to have to fix things last-minute, but things happen
[15:19] <lderan> indeed they do
[15:19] <skellat> This is a cycle where we can take that gamble.  14.04 will be a different story but this round we can afford to take that gamble as the support window is only 9 months.
[15:19] <knome> skellat, that sounds like a different discussion :)
[15:19] <knome> anyway
[15:20] <elfy> if you ask me - if bluesabre is happy to do so add him - we can amend as we go
[15:20] <knome> #action knome adds elfy to ~xubuntu-release, sends email about adding other members later
[15:20] <meetingology> ACTION: knome adds elfy to ~xubuntu-release, sends email about adding other members later
[15:20] <knome> first part done.
[15:21] <knome> #topic New and emerging items
[15:21] <knome> #subtopic Discuss about LTS/normal releases after changes to the release support length
[15:21] <knome> * Do we still want to keep normal releases as stable as they are now, or should we use less manpower for that?
[15:21] <knome> * Should LTS release always be the proposed release and normal releases "not encouraged"?
[15:21] <knome> * Should we follow the lead of Mythbuntu and only release LTS to LTS?
[15:21] <knome> so?
[15:22] <GridCube> stability its a must
[15:22] <bluesabre> People will lose interest if we become LTS-only
[15:22] <knome> GridCube, arguments?
[15:22] <knome> bluesabre, ^
[15:22] <ochosi> i think that doing releases is good practice and motivation to squash bugs
[15:23] <ochosi> people tend to do stuff last-minute, which would be extremely bad if we only have lts releases...
[15:23]  * pleia2 agrees
[15:23] <GridCube> i've said this before, but we have to provide a desktop that massive deployers would want to have in count for work enviroments, we should be the first option there
[15:23] <bluesabre> Everyone wants the latest features, developers need a playground to add features, test, and fix bugs
[15:23] <pleia2> so in ubuntu-land it was found that unless something specifically keeps people back (like the switch to unity ;)), most people upgrade to the next 6 month release pretty quickly, so it's not like the switch from 18 to 9 months of support actually changes all that much
[15:24] <GridCube> lts its important, but stable releases every 6 months provide bug patches and better work
[15:24] <GridCube> i mean better software
[15:24] <knome> i agree that the normal (or "interim") releases are a good way to motivate people
[15:24] <pleia2> calling them "interim" devalues them, no likey :)
[15:24] <GridCube> i like the release cycle we have now
[15:24] <pleia2> they are regular releases
[15:24] <knome> okay.
[15:25] <lderan> i do like the current cycle as well
[15:25] <skellat> At this point, as long as the upgrade path is stable and consistent I am fine with releases.  We have to ensure an appropriate mindset with our user base, though, that updating can in fact be good for them.  When I look through AskUbuntu at Xubuntu questions it seems odd when I see questions about End Of Life versions just sitting there or people holding onto the past.
[15:25] <pleia2> skellat: I think people who stay on old releases just don't understand how this all works (and I hope they are a minority)
[15:26] <GridCube> we should make sure that the standard packages we provide are stable and will work well
[15:26] <pleia2> afterall, windows xp worked for like 10 years :) why wouldn't xubuntu?
[15:26] <knome> one of the things keeping some xubuntu users not up-to-date is their (sometimes justified) fear that the newer version won't run (smoothly enough) on their PC's
[15:26] <GridCube> from update to update
[15:26] <ochosi> i agree with pleia2 that we shouldn't devalue our releases, we should certainly encourage people to upgrade
[15:26] <skellat> pleia2: That WinXP view of things frightens me.  We have to adequately inform and educate our user base to avoid it.
[15:26] <bluesabre> I agree that normal releases should maintain their stability, like GridCube mentioned, we have "customers" that probably depend on not having to install every 6-9 months
[15:26] <knome> sounds like people are willing to put the effort to release every 6 months
[15:27] <knome> let's do a simple vote.
[15:27] <skellat> #idea There may be a need alongside continuing releasing every six months to increase user education as to the appropriateness and value of updating & upgrading
[15:27] <knome> skellat, agreed. want to work on a blog article or something?
[15:28] <skellat> knome: I'll take that as an action item
[15:28] <knome> skellat, you should be able to draft that on xubuntu.org, and others are able to review and give feedback. when it's ready, we'll hit publish :)
[15:28] <knome> thanks
[15:28] <skellat> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
[15:28] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
[15:28] <pleia2> \o/
[15:29] <lderan> \o/
[15:29] <knome> #vote Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ?
[15:29] <meetingology> Please vote on: Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ?
[15:29] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[15:29] <knome> +1
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from knome
[15:29] <GridCube> +1
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
[15:29] <elfy> +1
[15:29] <ochosi> +1
[15:29] <bluesabre> +1
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from elfy
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[15:29] <lderan> +1
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from lderan
[15:29] <skellat> +1
[15:29] <meetingology> +1 received from skellat
[15:30] <pleia2> +1
[15:30] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[15:30] <jjfrv8> +1
[15:30] <meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
[15:30] <knome> #endvote
[15:30] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Keep doing regular releases every 6 months and try to keep their stability as we're doing now (+1) or something else (-1) ?
[15:30] <meetingology> Votes for:9 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[15:30] <meetingology> Motion carried
[15:30] <knome> next!
[15:30] <GridCube> :)
[15:30] <knome> #topic Organizing testing for Saucy
[15:30] <knome> #subtopic New greeter - when is it likely to land? Do we want to do a specific call for testing it?
[15:31] <GridCube> where its information about this new greeter?
[15:31] <GridCube> it will be touchscreen friendly?
[15:31] <knome> ochosi, bluesabre?
[15:31] <pleia2> brb
[15:31] <bluesabre> one sec
[15:32] <knome> me brb too
[15:32] <ochosi> meh, i have a phone-call (work), that might take a bit...
[15:32] <bluesabre> #link release announcement: http://www.smdavis.us/2013/06/03/lightdm-gtk-greeter-1-6-0-released/
[15:33] <GridCube> (i've read that the new "variety" wallpaper changer program can be set up to update the lightdm wallpaper to match the current wallpaper of the desktop, can this option be added to the xfce menus somewhere?)
[15:33] <bluesabre> how soon do we want it?  I can do a sponsored upload tonight
[15:33] <elfy> bluesabre: well it needs testing somehow
[15:33] <bluesabre> ppa
[15:33] <bluesabre> one sec
[15:34] <elfy> I can do a testcase for it pretty quicky - then it's just working out how to get it on the qa tracker
[15:34] <bluesabre> we have a daily ppa for it presently
[15:34] <bluesabre> #link https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+archive/daily
[15:34] <bluesabre> I will create a stable release ppa soon
[15:34] <elfy> yea - I have that here
[15:34] <knome> elfy, i'm able to help with that
[15:34] <elfy> knome: ok
[15:34] <GridCube> also, whats with that picture on the greeter? how can xubuntu users put their pictures tehre?
[15:35] <bluesabre> ~/.face
[15:35] <lderan> ah
[15:35] <GridCube> bluesabre: can that be edited on the setting menu?
[15:35] <bluesabre> I think the user manager might support setting user-image, ochosi?
[15:36] <elfy> knome: also need to sort out so can approve testcases for us
[15:36] <bluesabre> if not, I'll look into getting a patch in for it
[15:36] <knome> elfy, i can approve.
[15:37] <knome> elfy, and i can make you able to approve
[15:37] <elfy> that works
[15:37] <bluesabre> #action bluesabre to create lightdm-gtk-greeter stable PPA
[15:37] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to create lightdm-gtk-greeter stable PPA
[15:38] <knome> are concerned people fine with this information, or do we need to discuss further
[15:38] <elfy> I can let slickymaster know to mark me as someone to check his testcases
[15:38] <elfy> knome: hang on
[15:38] <knome> (we/you can always come back to that later after the meeting)
[15:38] <knome> oki
[15:38] <bluesabre> #action bluesabre and ochosi to investigate setting user profile image
[15:38] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre and ochosi to investigate setting user profile image
[15:38] <elfy> I've not actually got any answers :)
[15:38] <knome> you're correct :P
[15:38] <elfy> do we want to test this new greeter specifically - I'd say yes
[15:38] <knome> yup
[15:39] <bluesabre> should I go ahead and create an action item to get the sponsored upload started?
[15:39] <elfy> bluesabre and ochosi can let me know when it's going to be released - then we can set up test on qa and then I can mail the list about it
[15:39] <knome> if it's distinctly different than the last greeter at least ;)
[15:39] <knome> bluesabre, if you're ok with getting a sponsored upload with that, sure
[15:39] <pleia2> elfy: yes, mail the list, I'm very lazy and won't test until there is a specific call and the instructions are very clear :)
[15:39] <elfy> well it was distinct enough for me to say it was broken :)
[15:40] <elfy> pleia2: exactly what I want to be avoiding :)
[15:40] <pleia2> (I kid, it's less "no time" than lazy, if I can spin it up and test in less than an hour I'm much more likely to)
[15:40] <bluesabre> #action bluesabre to set up sponsored upload for lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6
[15:40] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to set up sponsored upload for lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6
[15:40] <pleia2> s/less/more
[15:40] <knome> bluesabre, that probably is blocked until we've got testing done though
[15:40] <bluesabre> yeah
[15:40] <elfy> knome: well we can get people to test from the ppa
[15:40] <knome> elfy, sure :)
[15:41] <elfy> though they'll need greybird from git as well
[15:41] <knome> ok, that leads us to...
[15:41] <knome> #subtopic Is there anything anyone knows of presently that we need to plan for testing?
[15:41] <knome> display-dialog?
[15:41] <rowboatnick> o/
[15:41] <knome> are we going to introduce that?
[15:42] <bluesabre> depends on xfce-4.12
[15:42] <knome> ok
[15:42] <knome> bluesabre, anything else from you and simon?
[15:42] <bluesabre> not presently
[15:42] <GridCube> what about network conectivity from thunar
[15:43] <bluesabre> I think abiword 3.0 might be hitting the saucy repos soon
[15:43] <GridCube> like for shared networks
[15:43] <GridCube> i dont really like relaying on gigolo
[15:43] <knome> bluesabre, if that happens, will you (#action) be in touch with elfy and organize testing if needed?
[15:44] <elfy> basically what I need is to know in advance of things we want testing so I can get everything in place before
[15:44] <knome> exactly
[15:44] <elfy> and avoid last minute rushes for testing things
[15:44] <bluesabre> knome, display dialog or abiword?
[15:44] <elfy> #action elfy create greeter testcase
[15:44] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy create greeter testcase
[15:44] <rowboatnick> What I want to do, is fix and write more test cases for autopilot
[15:44] <bluesabre> +1
[15:45] <bluesabre> I need to read up on autopilot, I've seen a lot of exchanges over it recently
[15:45] <elfy> rowboatnick: that's good - because that is above my head atm
[15:45] <knome> bluesabre, abiword. if 4.12 lands, we will have to discuss testing generally quite a bit more anyway
[15:45] <rowboatnick> elfy: if i write some, can you push them?
[15:45] <GridCube> :D new lightdm has onscreen keyboard!
[15:45] <lderan> ooo
[15:46] <bluesabre> knome, I'll try to keep up to date on it
[15:46] <knome> rowboatnick, if elfy can't, i can, and if i can't, i can make somebody do that
[15:46] <elfy> rowboatnick: once knome has made it so I can
[15:46] <knome> bluesabre, ta
[15:46] <rowboatnick> okay, roger
[15:46] <lderan> i should have a touch display soon, so will be able to help out with testing
[15:46] <knome> elfy, if you seem to miss any permissions after being added to ~xubuntu-release, just ask balloons to give you more
[15:46] <elfy> knome: ok
[15:47] <elfy> rowboatnick: I'd like to know if things are being done QA wise anyway :)
[15:47] <knome> that's pretty much what i'd need to do too, this way you'll just get it quicker
[15:47] <knome> the last subtopic for this item
[15:47] <knome> #subtopic Alpha 1 release is June 20th (one week away). Are we opting in or opting out?
[15:47] <elfy> knome: well noscaj had something he wanted me to look at - so I should be able to see
[15:48] <knome> i would say opt-out, since we don't have xfce 4.12 around yet.
[15:48] <elfy> ok - I can go with that
[15:48] <GridCube> will it be ready before 13.10?
[15:48] <knome> we might want to discuss a2/a3 more thoroughly regardless of 4.12 state, but for a1... we really haven't done anything big yet
[15:48] <bluesabre> yeah, we don't have any of our new stuff in saucy yet, and people will report bugs about greybird and gtk3.8
[15:48] <knome> ...that leads us to...
[15:48] <pleia2> knome: sounds good
[15:48] <knome> #topic What is the story from upstream Xfce on 4.12's release situation?
[15:48] <bluesabre> ochosi ^
[15:49] <elfy> knome: quick question
[15:49] <bluesabre> knome, last thing I saw, ochosi mailed xfce-dev about the current status
[15:49] <knome> (and re: a1, we basically just need to opt-in, so if we don't do anything, we don't get a milestone release)
[15:49] <bluesabre> with no response
[15:49] <knome> bluesabre, same here
[15:49] <knome> elfy, sure? :)
[15:49] <elfy> is there a way that we can run with an image for a week ignoring alpha's and cadence week - so we can test when WE need to?
[15:49] <bluesabre> we can try to ping Nick about it
[15:50] <knome> elfy, that might be possible, we probably need to be in touch with balloons/stgraber about that
[15:50] <elfy> ok - well I'll find out
[15:51] <knome> elfy, though that would basically be really close to having a decent "release" (and just not pushing release notes)
[15:51] <knome> (or announcement)
[15:51] <elfy> yep
[15:51] <elfy> I'm just trying to think ahead
[15:51] <GridCube> can't we blame it to extra care on stability? P:
[15:51] <knome> elfy, ta. #ubuntu-quality is a good place to ask that - when you do, ping me as well so i'll be able to track where we're going to
[15:51] <elfy> knome: ok
[15:52] <skellat> #idea Release team to formally opt out of Alpha 1 and request that, when ready, daily builds get halted so that we have a particular exemplar to test before Alpha 2 or Alpha 3.
[15:52] <knome> GridCube, i'm not sure if i follow your question
[15:52] <skellat> #idea Contact Xfce upstream again to find out what is going on with 4.12
[15:52] <elfy> #action elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us
[15:52] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us
[15:52] <knome> #action ochosi to poke xfce guys about 4.12 again
[15:52] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to poke xfce guys about 4.12 again
[15:52] <GridCube> its not a question, i say that if we ask for extra time we can blame that time on taking extra care on having a stable alpha
[15:52] <GridCube> P:
[15:53] <knome> skellat, re idea #1: that would basically be the same as "releasing" alpha 1 without release announcements.
[15:53] <knome> skellat, which is something we can do if we want.
[15:53] <skellat> knome: It would be a really, really, really late Alpha 1 though
[15:54] <skellat> knome: Meh.  Upon further reflection, if we still don't have word from upstream we should just skip Alpha 1 and let it roll away.  We're still getting bugs from the dailies already as it is.
[15:55] <skellat> #idea Upgrade xubuntu-bugs on LP into a proper team
[15:56] <knome> yeah, i'm all for skipping alpha 1. there's not really much what we want to do with the alpha testing
[15:56] <knome> skellat, proper being... what?
[15:57] <knome> skellat, the team is created to act as an easy way to not make -devel/-team receive all bug mail about the world
[15:58] <skellat> knome: Have it integrated into overarching bug-squashing so that it can also do bug management
[15:58] <skellat> i.e. set severity levels like WON'TFIX and reassign bugs
[15:59] <pleia2> would require us to make the team no longer open (and someone to manage joining)
[15:59] <skellat> Ah
[15:59] <knome> we have -devel for that pretty much :)
[16:00] <pleia2> otherwise anyone could just join and go to town on crazy marking of our bugs ;)
[16:00] <lderan> I plan on looking at seeing if i can fix some bugs soon P:
[16:00] <knome> +1
[16:00] <skellat> pleia2: True
[16:00] <bluesabre> +100
[16:00] <skellat> I'll drop that idea then
[16:00] <knome> :)
[16:00] <pleia2> not actually saying it's a bad idea, but it would need a manager
[16:01] <skellat> pleia2: Which would be something to table for a later meeting so that it could be more fully developed
[16:01] <knome> i don't think we have enough people to form a "xubuntu bug squad"
[16:01] <pleia2> skellat: +1
[16:01] <knome> i wonder what the requirements are to join the ubuntu bug squad
[16:02] <elfy> masochism I think
[16:02] <bluesabre> I think its largely interacting with a lot of ubuntu bugs across the board
[16:02] <bluesabre> and a dash of masochism
[16:02] <elfy> thought as much :p
[16:02] <GridCube> and 32hours a day
[16:02] <lderan> woo
[16:02] <knome> OOPS! i *am* in that team
[16:03] <elfy> lol
[16:03] <knome> apparently getting a membership in a random LP team helps as well
[16:03] <pleia2> hah
[16:03] <skellat> Yeah, lets table that until next meeting so that that idea can be fleshed out more and so that knome can figure out how he is in Ubuntu Bug Squad
[16:04] <pleia2> hehe
[16:04] <knome> hehe
[16:05] <knome>  Pasi Lallinaho → Ubuntu Documentation Committers → Ubuntu Bug Control
[16:05] <knome> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol
[16:05] <knome> that's the team we're talking about, for reference
[16:05] <pleia2> cool, I'm on it too
[16:05] <knome> skellat, will you take an #action item?
[16:05] <knome> pleia2, yeah, via even more steps
[16:05]  * pleia2 nods
[16:06] <skellat> knome: Yep
[16:06] <knome> ta
[16:06] <micahg-work> FWIW, I think alpha 2 or 3 is important since there were toolchain changes this cycle (sorry for being a bit delayed)
[16:06] <pleia2> good to know
[16:07] <knome> micahg-work, yup, we're opting-in for one at least most probably
[16:07] <skellat> #action skellat to develop a proposal for consideration at next scheduled meeting for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
[16:07] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat to develop a proposal for consideration at next scheduled meeting for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
[16:07] <knome> micahg-work, do you think it would be good to opt-in for A2 regardless of xfce 4.12 state?
[16:07] <micahg-work> one of the two
[16:07]  * micahg-work looks at schedule
[16:08] <micahg-work> whichever one we can get testing for
[16:08] <knome> oki
[16:08] <knome> #topic Desktop of the Week / Featured desktop -feature on the website
[16:08] <knome> pleia2,
[16:09] <micahg-work> if 4.12 looks promising before a3, wait for that, otherwise, a2 would probably be better as that's more lead time to fix potential ssues
[16:09] <pleia2> #info we have some volunteers, but my other bullet points for requirements haven't yet been satisfied
[16:09] <knome> micahg-work, will raise that up before A2. ta :)
[16:09] <micahg-work> but in the end, it comes down to someone having time to coordinate the testing around the release
[16:09] <pleia2> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-June/008957.html
[16:09] <GridCube> what are those pleia2 ?
[16:09] <knome> micahg-work, we have elfy for that, so...
[16:09] <pleia2> GridCube: submission guidelines and submission mechanism
[16:10] <pleia2> #action pleia2 to draft submission guidelines and send to list for review
[16:10] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to draft submission guidelines and send to list for review
[16:10] <GridCube> oh, it will depend on the envirement we use to gather the submissions
[16:10] <rowboatnick> I dont understand this, why would Xubuntu, who makes a desktop that looks like X, show off how people have modified their desktop to look like Y?
[16:10]  * micahg-work doesn't know elfy's Summer/Winter vacation plans...
[16:10] <GridCube> but i assure you that that can be easily filtered and sorted ou
[16:10] <GridCube> t
[16:10] <pleia2> nantou: people like it and have been asking for years
[16:10] <pleia2> err rowboatnick
[16:10] <pleia2> sorry nantou :)
[16:10] <rowboatnick> okay
[16:10] <elfy> micahg-work: elfy has no money so has none at all
[16:10] <pleia2> defaults are nice, but lots of cool customization happens in our community
[16:11] <knome> pleia2, lol, n and r aren't even close to each other!
[16:11] <pleia2> knome: it's early :)
[16:11] <GridCube> rowboatnick: when you are shopping for OS having desktops its a HUGE plus
[16:11] <GridCube> people leaveing windows 8 will find xubuntu ubber awesome if they can see it :D
[16:12] <elfy> rowboatnick: people like seeing what others have done - the forum has to have monthly threads for the same thing
[16:12] <GridCube> :) because its pretty
[16:13] <micahg-work> elfy, in that case, I'd say go for alpha 2 and then alpha 3 if there are a lot of fixes/changes between the two (only 2 weeks though), alpha 2 -> beta 1 freeze is 6 weeks which is a nice chunk of time to fix stuff
[16:13] <lderan> GridCube agreed :D
[16:13] <knome> rewrite the timebooks?
[16:14] <knome> oh
[16:14] <elfy> micahg-work: ok - that's good
[16:14] <elfy> thanks
[16:14] <knome> nvm my comment
[16:14] <knome> :D
[16:14] <GridCube> we have to set up a requierement list for the desktop images
[16:14] <elfy> :)
[16:14] <knome> GridCube, ?
[16:15] <GridCube> like, what kind of content its not allowed, if it should show open windows (else it would simply be a wallpaper), if they have to showcase default xubuntu applications, or can show stuff like nautilus or what not
[16:15] <pleia2> GridCube: that will be part of the submission guidelines I'm writing
[16:15] <knome> aha, wallpapers you mean, not images
[16:15] <pleia2> GridCube: please offer suggestions once I send the draft to the list :)
[16:15] <GridCube> we want to showoff xubuntu, or linuxverse
[16:16]  * pleia2 nods
[16:16] <knome> anyway
[16:16] <knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
[16:17] <knome> thu, 27 june
[16:17] <elfy> suits me
[16:17] <pleia2> I'll be out of town for work
[16:17] <knome> ...and 15UTC
[16:17] <pleia2> go ahead without me
[16:17] <micahg-work> wfm
[16:17] <knome> pleia2, yeah, i was thinking about that :)
[16:18] <skellat> I'm okay with that scheduling
[16:18] <knome> good
[16:18] <knome> #endmeeting
[16:18] <bluesabre> Should work for me too
[16:18] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun 13 16:18:21 2013 UTC.
[16:18] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-06-13-14.59.moin.txt
[16:18] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-06-13-14.59.html
[16:18] <GridCube> +1
[16:18] <knome> ta!
[16:18] <pleia2> thanks knome
[16:18] <elfy> thanks
[16:18] <bluesabre> thanks knome
[16:18] <knome> i'll add the meeting minutes to the wiki later
[16:18] <knome> i got to take some time off PC now
[16:19] <elfy> yep - cya knome
[16:19] <rowboatnick> cya
[16:19] <knome> (haven't adjusted to sitting 8h in front of PC yet and we also have a new 46" TV)
[16:19] <pleia2> what, you just had days away
[16:19] <pleia2> hehe
[16:19] <knome> ^
[16:19] <knome> i'm going to have more days off in the following weeks :P
[16:20] <bluesabre> knome, agreed
[16:20] <knome> so, have fun
[16:20] <knome> ->
[16:22] <lderan> :P
[16:25] <ochosi> ok, now i'm back
[16:26] <elfy> welcome back :)
[16:26] <ochosi> knome, bluesabre: i sent an email to xfce-dev ml about 4.12 release dates but there was no response from anyone (well practically Nick is the only one who really has a say on this)
[16:26] <ochosi> so yeah, i'm not expecting anything from there anytime soon
[16:28] <ochosi> and yeah, the .face image can't currently be changed with a gui
[16:28] <ochosi> it is usually set up at install time, iirc ubiquity has a dialog included for that
[16:28] <elfy> it does
[16:29] <rowboatnick> elfy: how did you download all the testcases?
[16:29] <elfy> if you've got a webcam it tries to do that
[16:29] <ochosi> i consider it very strange that the user-settings we currently have doesn't support that
[16:30] <elfy> rowboatnick: I do bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-tests inside the folders I work in
[16:30] <elfy> but that's for manual tests
[16:30] <rowboatnick> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-autopilot-tests
[16:30] <rowboatnick> i guess then
[16:30] <elfy> yea think so
[16:31]  * rowboatnick deleted his VM he used for testcases, as it was 32 bit :<
[16:31] <elfy> but I do it for each thing I'm working on - I have them in different folders - I get confused  :)
[16:31] <rowboatnick> ah
[16:33] <GridCube> ochosi: it would be good if we can get that picture setting added to user settings and if we could add the option to mirror the desktop wallpaper change to lightdm's too
[16:36] <ochosi> GridCube: the wallpaper is already used/changed in lightdm
[16:37] <GridCube> mmm i havent noticed that, how you enable it?
[16:37] <ochosi> user-settings is in gnome-system-tools, so might be hard to get in the patch
[16:45] <bluesabre> GridCube, if the wallpaper you have selected is installed system-wide, lightdm will use it
[16:45] <bluesabre> ie in /usr/share/backgrounds
[16:49] <GridCube> mmm... i will have to test that, but in any case my wallpapers are in ~/.share/xfce4/backdrops and they never match
[16:49] <ochosi> home folders are protected, so...
[16:50] <GridCube> mmm systemwide?
[16:50] <GridCube> how you set systemwide, you set a walpaper for root?
[16:50] <bluesabre> otherwise, you can define the fallback image in lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
[16:50] <bluesabre> /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
[16:51] <ochosi> GridCube: not systemwide image, a system-wide accessible wallpaper was meant
[16:51] <ochosi> you set it as always
[16:51] <GridCube> oh
[16:51] <GridCube> i see
[16:51] <ochosi> but it has to be somewhere not in /home
[16:51] <GridCube> no, the point was that the new release of variety has a setting where you can enable it to autoupdate lightdm from the rotating wallpapers
[16:51] <GridCube> if they can do it, we cant we
[16:52] <GridCube> s/we c/why c/
[16:52] <bluesabre> oh
[16:52] <ochosi> well if it has access to the conf file then it can "manually" set the wallpaper
[16:53] <GridCube> but that would require it to do root stuff?
[16:53] <GridCube> mmm will  have to investigate
[16:53] <ochosi> yeah, i guess
[16:53] <ochosi> but prolly worth looking into that
[16:53] <bluesabre> if variety changes your wallpaper to something installed in /usr then it would change the lightdm wallpaper for your user
[16:54] <bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/variety
[16:56] <ochosi> it does nothing fancy setting the wallpaper in xfce: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~peterlevi/variety/trunk/view/head:/data/scripts/set_wallpaper
[16:56] <ochosi> i don't see how it would change lightdm's wallpaper by itself
[16:56] <bluesabre> it would only if it set it to one of the system wp
[17:07] <rowboatnick> elfy: what apps, besides those who already have autopilot tests, do we need autopilot tests for?
[17:08] <elfy> rowboatnick: I don't know - I've not looked at it much - I'd say the default apps at least
[17:08] <rowboatnick> okay, i'd get chopping on mousepad next
[17:08] <elfy> k
[17:09] <rowboatnick> Should I create by own branch for this?
[17:09] <rowboatnick> might be easier to overview
[17:09] <elfy> you assigning the bugs if there are any to yourself - that's how I've been keeping track
[17:09] <elfy> rowboatnick: I do
[17:10] <elfy> ls manualtests/ -> greeter  pidgin  thunar
[17:10] <rowboatnick> oh yeah, we need those
[17:10] <elfy> then I get the branch and then push when I'm ready
[17:11] <rowboatnick> lp is very annoying when you've lost your ssh key :>
[17:11] <bluesabre> yup
[17:14] <elfy> indeed
[17:14] <elfy> bzr is very annoying if you've never done it before
[17:17] <GridCube> ochosi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~peterlevi/variety/trunk/revision/321#variety/Options.py
[17:17] <GridCube> :)
[17:17] <rowboatnick> btw, those testcases we need modified, is it okay to just like.. just change what i need? There is no license in them
[17:17] <GridCube> >The fourth passed parameter ($4) is copy or nocopy. "copy" instructs this script to copy the wallpaper image to some world-readable directory (e.g. ~/Pictures), chmod it so everyone can read it and use the copy for the wallpaper.  This makes the wallpaper image usable by LightDM.
[17:18] <bluesabre> ah
[17:19] <bluesabre> in that case it should just work
[17:19] <bluesabre> we're using the standard lightdm libraries lightdm_get_user_image or something like that
[17:21] <GridCube> well he changed it later, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~peterlevi/variety/trunk/revision/334
[17:21] <GridCube> but its basically the same
[18:26] <elfy> micahg: re discussion doing a2 and a3 - seems that when they finally get around to changing the schedule there will be a1 and a2 then betas ...
[18:54] <micahg-work> elfy, hrm, so a3 is being cancelled?
[18:54]  * micahg-work is a little out of touch these days
[18:55]  * micahg-work is also wondering if DIF is correct
[18:55] <elfy> so it seems - I'm working off of second hand information - the schedule is being sorted out 'tonight' - we should have a better idea tomorrow
[18:57] <elfy> Dif?
[19:18] <GNima> Hello guys
[19:19] <GNima> I would like to contribute but I don't know how.. any suggestions?
[19:19] <pleia2> GNima: http://xubuntu.org/contribute/ is a good place to start
[19:20] <pleia2> outlines lots of places to get involved, depending on what your skills+interests are :)
[19:20] <GNima> Im checking this now http://xubuntu.org/contribute/development/
[19:24] <pleia2> great, feel free to ask any questions you may have about it
[19:27] <GNima> Thanks


[06:27]  * Cheri703 is watching undercover boss and SUPER craving a rally's burger and fries >.>
[06:29] <Unit193> That's one place my mom really loves and doens't have here.
[06:29] <Unit193> Their fish ones are great though.
[06:29] <Cheri703> I miss it a ton, they're one of few places I like their burgers
[06:30] <Unit193> They do have some good stuff...
[06:30] <Cheri703> there was one REALLY close to my old place, we went there all the time
[06:30] <Cheri703> and the friiiiiiies
[06:30] <Cheri703> seasoned fries nom nom
[06:31] <Unit193> Pepper fires, not bad.
[06:31] <Cheri703> also just the fact that they were open late
[06:31] <Unit193> Well, a few places around here are late too, but that's a bit different.
[06:31] <Cheri703> not many
[06:35] <Cheri703> :( grump grump I want a burger
[06:35] <Unit193> I'm thinking food sounds good, dangit.
[06:36] <Cheri703> yeah
[06:38]  * Cheri703 is on the job market again, not sure what is going to happen with freaking startek, as they're not especially happy with the fact that I got sick and had to miss work -_- so regardless, I'm looking again
[06:39] <Cheri703> even if they don't try to fire me because of getting sick, I don't like the job, so I want to keep looking
[06:40] <Unit193> Hmmm... I'm sure I know someone that works there too.
[06:40] <Cheri703> a lot of people work there
[15:26] <paultag> thafreak: ♥
[15:27] <thafreak> yo
[15:27] <thafreak> wow
[15:27] <thafreak> you have like ESP or some shit?
[15:28] <thafreak> i JUST looked at the screen like 1 min after you msg me
[15:28] <thafreak> paultag: sent you a linked in request...not sure why we didn't connect up there before
[15:28] <paultag> thafreak: you're already accepted, man :)
[15:28] <thafreak> cool
[15:28] <thafreak> that why you pinging me?
[15:28] <paultag> thafreak: yep
[15:29] <paultag> less ESP
[15:29] <paultag> but more awesome
[15:29] <thafreak> ha, gotcha
[15:30] <paultag> alright, brb
[15:30] <paultag> dunkn'
[16:08] <thafreak> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dmstanle
[16:09] <thafreak> Any ubuntu ohio people whom I'm not already connected with, please feel free to connect with me on linked in
[16:15] <paultag> damnit, I wish I could somehow make a coding collective
[16:15] <paultag> not focused on a project, per-se
[16:17] <paultag> I guess that's what #whube is
[16:17] <paultag> but we're all inactive
[16:30] <bbb__> already connected
[16:32]  * canthus13 thought the open source community was a coding collective. :P
[16:36] <bbb__> not a fan
[16:38] <dzho> whube?
[16:38] <dzho> paultag: don't make me join the channel just to try to figure out what that is.
[16:40] <dzho> oops.  too late.
[16:40] <paultag> dzho: :)
[17:32] <paultag> fffuuuuuuuuu google
[17:32] <paultag> bbl
[20:59] <FPC> Hello
[20:59] <Unit193> Howdy.
[21:00] <FPC> were haveing trouble downloading & Instaling software
[21:00] <Unit193> How so?
[21:01] <FPC> Were trying do download Powerterm software from a website and after we down load it we cant find it.
[21:02] <FPC> We installed it previously but cant find it now
[21:04] <Unit193> Generally, it's recommended to use software in the repos, but, depending on the browser, should have gone to ~/Downloads/
[21:06] <FPC> The browser downloads?
[21:06] <Unit193> What browser were you using?
[21:06] <FPC> FireFox
[21:07] <Unit193> Mine asks me where to save it, but you should open your Home folder and check the "Downloads" dir.
[21:08] <FPC> Nothing shows up on the Home folder downloads. It only shows up on the browser downloads
[21:09] <Unit193> Alright, in the browser, right click > Open Download Location (Or something like that)
[21:13] <FPC> I have the file on my desktop, and it wont open now.
[21:14] <FPC> Its a .sh file
[21:15] <Unit193> #ubuntu may be a better support option than here though.
[21:16] <Unit193> Otherwise, right click > properties > permissions > executable
[21:16] <FPC> whats/where's that?
[21:16] <FPC> we have ubuntu 11.10
[21:16] <Unit193> That's the Ubuntu support channel, you can get to it by typing /join #ubuntu
[21:18] <FPC> in the search bar?
[21:18] <Unit193> Nope, in the text box of this window where you are talking to me.
[21:20] <FPC> ok, before that. Where is properties to right click on
[21:21] <Unit193> You right click the file, I'd guess you can still do that in Unity...
[21:25] <FPC> Do we want exexuted checked?
[21:26] <FPC> Execute*
[21:30] <Unit193> You should really try the #ubuntu support channel.....
[21:31] <thafreak> anyone try precise alpha2?
[21:32] <Unit193> I've tried quite a few daily images, but none "Ubuntu".
[21:34] <canthus13> Nope.
[21:34]  * canthus13 is switching to Mint in April.
[21:34] <canthus13> 10.10 EOLs and I'm not putting ubuntu on my laptop. :/
[21:36] <thafreak> i'm snagging the server image now
[21:37] <thafreak> i tried resara server, it's pretty cool (Samba4 can act like an active directory server)
[21:38] <thafreak> but it's based on lucid
[21:38] <canthus13> I like my debian servers. :)
[21:39] <Unit193> I use X/L, generally, what do I care what Ubuntu does with Unity/HUD.
[21:40] <Unit193> Have you looked into Tmux?
[21:56] <thafreak> but ubuntu server has this whole orchestra/juju automation stuff
[22:05] <thafreak> yay, they changed the ubuntu server boot stuff back...no stupid graphics, and verbose by default!!


[23:52] <rgl> hi
[23:52] <rgl> is there a way to exec as a non-root user?
[23:53] <thom> the cunningly titled 'user' variable :)
[23:54] <thom> oops, sorry
[23:54] <thom> utterly wrong channel


[00:03] <Unit193> Kind of loads better/faster in a browser in that case, for a little it was just faster to use w3m for me. :3
[00:27] <mwhudson> xnox: it's that it no longer includes autopkgtest lines with no regressions i think
[00:29] <sarnold> or always had regressions, right?
[00:29] <sarnold> or was that a different page..
[00:41] <xnox> sarnold:  it no longer includes thousands of lines of perl-* Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed (x100000000 times)
[00:41] <Unit193> :D
[00:41] <sarnold> xnox: Passed!
[00:41] <Unit193> Thankgoodness the passed is in the past.
[00:42] <sarnold> xnox: is that because you broke all the perl things? or removed them? :)
[08:05] <Laney> xnox: mwhudson: thanks (mainly on behalf of elbrus - go tell him in #debci) :>
[08:30] <cpaelzer> niub: libvirt-bin was replaced in like xenial or so
[08:30] <cpaelzer> niub: the one replacing it will be libvirt-daemon-system
[08:31] <cpaelzer> withut the -system suffix you just get the binaries but not the service/system integration
[08:32] <niub> cpaelzer: so I should install libvirt-daemon libvirt-daemon-system libvirt-clients, am I right?
[08:51] <cpaelzer> niub: libvirt-daemon will be a dependency of libvirt-daemon-system so no need to install the former directly
[08:51] <cpaelzer> niub: and libvirt-clients you only need if you want the front end on the same system (like virsh and such)
[08:52] <cpaelzer> if you plan to manage is only from remove you don't need -clients
[09:27] <doko> wgrant: did the riscv64 build configs changes, after that one was built initially? https://launchpadlibrarian.net/488638702/buildlog_ubuntu-groovy-riscv64.guile-2.2_2.2.7+1-5ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz
[09:32] <cpaelzer> ddstreet: rbalint: the systemd autopkgtest success rate has dropped a lot in groovy it seems
[09:32] <cpaelzer> we all know they are complex and a bit flaky, but recently it seems worse - is there any work in progress to improve that again?
[10:10] <niub> cpaelzer: ack, thx
[10:29] <cpaelzer> arr, I have continuous issue with the autopkgtests of open-iscsi, caspar and ubuntu-image
[10:30] <cpaelzer> They all work well when run in a local autopkgtest vm
[10:30] <cpaelzer> due to that it is hard to debug, but OTOH wrong to mask them as badtest
[10:30] <cpaelzer> I was wondering if there is anything known going on with the infrastructure that might cause this?
[10:30] <cpaelzer> if so let me know
[10:31] <cpaelzer> there are no open bugs against any of these packages explaining it
[10:31] <cpaelzer> rafaeldtinoco: ^^ for open-iscsi and in case this came up on +1 duty as a topic
[10:31]  * cpaelzer dives into test logs in case there is anything that helps ...
[10:49] <cpaelzer> hmm, one could actually be a memory shortage
[10:49] <cpaelzer> I keep forgetting where we flag tests as "huge"
[10:50] <cpaelzer> but it seems these days all tests are huge, can tat be true
[10:50] <cpaelzer> only the huge queue has entries atm on http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running
[10:50] <cpaelzer> and they all use --flavour autopkgtest
[10:51] <cpaelzer> ok I was able to prove for one of the tests that memory shortage is the trigger (512M fails, 2G works)
[10:51] <mwhudson> cpaelzer: hm what's casper doing
[10:51] <cpaelzer> Laney: whenever it comes to autopktest infra you seem to know the answer - I beg your pardon for pinging you, but do you happen to know? ^^
[10:52] <cpaelzer> mwhudson: I was debugging down to the bone open-iscsi so far which surely is lack of memory
[10:52] <cpaelzer> mwhudson: I can look at caspar next and let you know in a bit
[10:53] <cpaelzer> mwhudson: last 7 on https://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/c/casper/groovy/amd64 all failed
[10:55] <Laney> cpaelzer: try running with -- qemu ... --ram-size 1536, that's what the instances get
[10:55] <Laney> 'huge' doesn't mean that it runs on a bigger instance
[10:55] <cpaelzer> ok will do a check at this size ..
[10:55] <cpaelzer> I thought it meant that in the past
[10:55] <cpaelzer> what does it still mean - longer timeouts?
[10:56] <Laney> nope
[10:56] <Laney> it means the package triggered more than 20 tests for that arch
[10:56] <cpaelzer> oh, TIL - thanks!
[11:00] <mwhudson> cpaelzer: hm is it always failing in the same place? are you sure it isn't actually a qemu regression?
[11:00] <mwhudson> anyway i'm going to bed, ttfn :)
[11:00] <cpaelzer> not a fail to work, but I was starting to wonder if memory consumption might have increased
[11:01] <cpaelzer> sleep well mwhudson
[11:01] <cpaelzer> beacuse it seems all issues I ahve left are tests running guests crashing for memory which is suspicious at least
[11:05] <cpaelzer> The tests all seem to run with TCG which isn't too much tested otherwise
[11:05] <cpaelzer> I think I'm onto something - thanks for listening mwhudson and Laney
[11:06] <mwhudson> yes system emulation
[11:06] <mwhudson> apparently nested virt will be a thing soon and we can stop testing system emulation soon? :)
[11:31] <ogra_> waveform, sil2100, https://github.com/snapcore/pi-gadget/issues/48 one for you ...
[11:31] <ogra_> (trivial to fix)
[11:31] <waveform> ogra_, ta - I'll take a look
[11:32] <ogra_> thx !
[11:32] <waveform> ogra_, hmmm - quick question, should I add all the optional extra UARTs the pi4 introduced while I'm at it?
[11:32] <ogra_> yeah, definitely
[11:32] <waveform> yeah, figured that might be worth it while adding these bits
[11:32] <waveform> okay
[12:23] <rafaeldtinoco> @pilot in
[13:33] <rbasak> kanashiro: around? Your updated vagrant SRU looks fine, though do you want to use -v2.2.6+dfsg-2ubuntu1 for the source build so that the changes file incorporates both changes?
[13:33] <rbasak> If you're not around I can just accept - it's not important in this case
[13:34] <rbasak> (since the same bug number is in the previous upload so Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed is not affected)
[13:35] <kanashiro> rbasak: if this is something you really want I can do it later today
[13:36] <rbasak> kanashiro: it's not necessary. I just wanted to give you the option :)
[13:36] <rbasak> (sometimes it is for this sort of case but not this time)
[13:38] <kanashiro> rbasak: so I'd say you can go ahead with the current version, context switch for this minor thing does not worth IMO :)
[13:38] <rbasak> Sure, OK
[14:19] <ahasenack> sil2100: hi, about bileto,
[14:20] <ahasenack> sil2100: I'm not seeing the kopanocore tests themselves in https://bileto.ubuntu.com/excuses/4142/groovy.html
[14:20] <ahasenack> and it does have dep8 tests
[14:22] <ahasenack> same for python-certbot-apache: https://bileto.ubuntu.com/excuses/4144/groovy.html
[14:22] <ahasenack> it says tests are green, but I see no tests run
[14:43] <Laney> ahasenack: we don't show all-green lines any more
[14:52] <ahasenack> Laney: oh
[14:52] <ahasenack> Laney: is there a way to see the log anyway, or is it discarded?
[14:54] <Laney> ahasenack: yeah, you can go to https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-groovy-ci-train-ppa-service-4144/?format=plain
[14:55] <Laney> then substitute the last part for the entries there
[15:38] <UnivrslSuprBox> If I use a snap application that uses xdg-portals, snapd starts xdg-portals-gtk and performs my request. When this occurs, gnome-shell knows to "lock" the dialog that appears to the window that it's coming from and dims the application. How does the shell know to do this? What code handles popping up the dialogs modally?
[15:38] <UnivrslSuprBox> This seems interesting to me because the application is in confinement and the dialog opening modally is outside
[15:40] <UnivrslSuprBox> I ask because we need to replicate this behavior in Lomiri and having some direction to how someone else did it would be nice. But if I'm in the wrong place please point at me and laugh.
[15:44] <juliank> UnivrslSuprBox: If you don't get an answer here, maybe ask in like #gnome on GimpNet https://wiki.gnome.org/Community/GettingInTouch/IRC#Community_.26_Core_Experience
[15:44] <juliank> UnivrslSuprBox: or try #ubuntu-desktop
[15:44] <juliank> Though they should be reading here too ...
[15:54] <UnivrslSuprBox> Thanks! I'll idle some time longer.
[17:34] <rbalint> cpaelzer, regarding the systemd autopkgtests there are a few valid regressiond being fixed in latest uploads and infra plays a role i think
[17:34] <rbalint> cpaelzer, do you observe flaky tests running them locally in qemu?
[18:38] <oSoMoN> LocutusOfBorg, mind triggering the following node-* tests? https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/FxPzTd5wtQ/
[18:42] <ginggs> oSoMoN: doing...
[18:42] <oSoMoN> cheers
[18:43] <ginggs> oSoMoN: LocutusOfBorg: .
[19:36] <ahasenack> hi, I have a config file I want to move from package A to a new package B, so that's case #7 of https://wiki.debian.org/PackageTransition
[19:36] <ahasenack> my problem is how to preserve changes the user might have made to that config file
[19:36] <ahasenack> I initially just added A.maintscript with rm_conffile, for the case if the user just upgrades A, I want the config file gone (if unchanged). That works
[19:37] <ahasenack> but if I then install B, the default config file is installed, and it won't have the changes the user made when he had A version 1 installed
[19:38] <ahasenack> and if A ad changes, I end up with the A config file backed up, but the new config file from B as the default
[19:38] <ahasenack> *had changes
[21:09] <rafaeldtinoco> cpaelzer: just fyio, sergiodj and I are working in qemu regressions specially because of nettle (depending on its migration)
[21:10] <rafaeldtinoco> and nettle will unblock many stuff from migrations
[21:10] <rafaeldtinoco> currently we're checking qemu->casper
[21:10] <rafaeldtinoco> and then qemu->open-iscsi and qemu->systemd
[21:49] <rafaeldtinoco> ls
[21:59] <rafaeldtinoco> casper works fine locally :\, Im investigating lintian issues in all arches (arm64 / ppc64el - same test, s390x - other test) .. etc
[21:59] <rafaeldtinoco> more fun tomorrow
[21:59] <rafaeldtinoco> @pilot out
[22:44] <mwhudson> xnox: wanna talk about imsm a bit
[22:44] <mwhudson> ?
[22:44] <xnox> Yes.
[22:44] <mwhudson> xnox: so you do ... stuff in the bios
[22:45] <xnox> I have next call at half-past the hour.
[22:45] <mwhudson> which results in a "mdadm container" in the OS
[22:45] <mwhudson> xnox: voice or here?
[22:45] <mwhudson> i don't mind
[22:45] <xnox> mwhudson:  here is fine.
[22:45] <xnox> mwhudson:  if you want voice, i will need to go outside.
[22:45] <mwhudson> ok
[22:45] <mwhudson> here is fine for me too
[22:46] <mwhudson> you can then slice this container up into actual block devices
[22:46] <mwhudson> you can choose a different raid level for each slice
[22:46] <mwhudson> but each slice spans all disks in the container
[22:46] <mwhudson> accurate so far? ^
[22:46] <xnox> more or less.
[22:47] <mwhudson> can you also create these "slices" (what's the proper word?) in the bios? i wasn't sure about that
[22:47] <xnox> container => mark and slur-up all the disks to make them ismsm. Think of it as doing "pvcreate" on them, to say they will be used for Intel Raid.
[22:48] <xnox> there is md127 that correlates to container, and it's mostly to query the controller that firmware and userspace agrees which disks are under intel raid management.
[22:48] <xnox> so the slices..... those just look like normal RAID devices, that yeah, can be of any size and parity as needed.
[22:48] <xnox> kind of like lvcreate
[22:49] <xnox> but they appear on the host as "md126, md125, md124" devices.
[22:49] <xnox> with their "physical" volume claiming to be like the container (md127) or like all the disks.
[22:49] <xnox> but yeah the parent device behind them is kind of fake.
[22:50] <xnox> terminology wise, one creates RAID device
[22:50] <xnox> inside a RAID container
[22:50] <xnox> that happens to consume hard-drives that must be connected to the right ports on the motherboard that have the raid stuff.
[22:51] <xnox> mwhudson:  https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/support/articles/000005789/technologies.html
[22:51] <xnox> mwhudson:  here are the bios docs, and the picture how it normally it looks in bios, if one boots with "ctrl+i"
[22:51] <xnox> so yeah they say "Create RAID Volume"
[22:51] <xnox> as if one is creating a normal mdadm raid volume.
[22:52] <mwhudson> xnox: can you partition these raid devices? can you put the ESP on one?
[22:53] <xnox> mwhudson:  yes, yes.
[22:54] <xnox> mwhudson:  it is more normal to create raid volumes, rather than partitioning them.
[22:54] <mwhudson> xnox: also is there any difference from our point of view between expensive server VROC and consumer laptop RST?
[22:54] <xnox> mwhudson:  i.e md126 esp, md125 rootfs
[22:54] <xnox> mwhudson:  rather than md126p1 esp, md126p2 rootfs
[22:54] <mwhudson> xnox: how do you mark the ESP if it's a raid device?
[22:54] <xnox> mwhudson:  create md126, format it with fat32 and put ESP label on it.
[22:55] <xnox> mwhudson:  create uefi boot entry by fsuuid as usual.
[22:55] <mwhudson> usually the label is a partition type code in the GPT
[22:55] <mwhudson> but ok
[22:55] <xnox> mwhudson:  firmware has UEFI intel matrix raid driver, meaning that UEFI firmware has drive(....) for the container, and the raid volumes created.
[22:55] <xnox> hence it can find ESP on them, as if they are were real hardware raid disks.
[22:56] <xnox> mwhudson:  sure, just do whatever one would do to it normally. Pretend that md126 is your typical sda1
[22:57] <mwhudson> xnox: i don't know how that works given there is no partition table in this case but well, a problem for another day
[22:57] <xnox> mwhudson:  i didn't get on that system they shared with us, i think i can live convert it to what it should look like from an initrd.
[22:57] <xnox> mwhudson:  you can create partition table too, if that's better. I think that's what we did in Rackspace OnMetal cloud.
[22:57] <xnox> mwhudson:  i.e. create RAID1 all disks, all the things.
[22:58] <xnox> which md126, create GPT on it, create partitions on it, etc.
[22:58] <xnox> that's what d-i did too
[22:58] <xnox> and everyone at Intel were happy with that, because it just worked.
[22:59] <xnox> mwhudson:  it feels to me that in essence, one has to call `sudo mdadm --detail --detail-platform` if that has raid capabilities
[22:59] <xnox> mwhudson:  when user creates raid, it should assemble container, and use mdadm commands with metadata set to imsm format.
[22:59] <mwhudson> xnox: so d-i basically creates a single device in the container and lets partman-auto have at taht?
[23:00] <xnox> mwhudson:  yes.
[23:00] <mwhudson> so subiquity should (a) hide any disks that are part of a container
[23:00] <xnox> mwhudson:  i think for raid0 one can even fake the imsm controller in a vm.
[23:01] <mwhudson> (b) do something like what d-i does when you choose the container in the guided view
[23:01] <mwhudson> xnox: ah i was wondering if there was qemu support for all this
[23:01] <xnox> mwhudson:  often when people buy servers from intel preconfigured with raid1 all disks.
[23:01] <xnox> and if one has it auto-assembled, guided should offer to "autopartition md127 Intel Raid"
[23:02] <xnox> mwhudson:  or people can choose to destroy md127 continer, and then all disks become eligible for manual partitioning.
[23:02] <mwhudson> i guess the container needs to be a new kind of thing in the UI
[23:02] <mwhudson> xnox: oh, i assumed that would be something you'd have to do in the bios
[23:02] <xnox> mwhudson:  it's either or.
[23:02] <mwhudson> can you create a container from the linux side too?
[23:02] <xnox> mwhudson:  yes.
[23:02] <mwhudson> oh
[23:03] <mwhudson> what is the benefit of this vs bog standard md raid again? :)
[23:03] <xnox> mwhudson: on-disk format is very simple. The VROC key / controller, just has CPU assisted quick parity calculations and recovery/data moving, such that CPU can do that without actually pushing data up to kernel and back down to disk.
[23:03] <mwhudson> i guess performance and the firmware support for reading from the raid devices
[23:04] <xnox> mwhudson:  and to use the CPU assisted calculations, one has ensure that the disk is in the format that cpu knows to read directly.
[23:04] <mwhudson> oh being able to do recovery behind the scenes sounds pretty nice
[23:04] <xnox> mwhudson:  benefit is that they wrote proprietary/BSD UEFI driver that Microsoft signed.
[23:04] <xnox> mwhudson:  actually recovery still needs to be started by something, and monitored.
[23:05] <xnox> mwhudson:  what you will find when container is assembled is that<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is started which needs to stay alive until after pivot to finalrd.
[23:05] <xnox> mwhudson:  or firmware has equivalent.
[23:05] <mwhudson> xnox: oh ok
[23:05] <xnox> mwhudson:  it's a small agent basically to get cpu notifications, and push down messages. "Yes, borken, start repair"
[23:05] <xnox> "is it done yet?"
[23:05] <xnox> "is it done yet?"
[23:05] <xnox> "is it done yet?"
[23:06] <xnox> "ok, pretending it is healthy now"
[23:06] <xnox> fake things in /proc/mdstat
[23:06] <xnox> mwhudson:  let me try to get onto that machine
[23:07] <mwhudson> xnox: so on a imsm-capable system (how do you detect that) subiquity should support "mdraid containers" which can be made out of disks (not partitions) and can have raid devices created within them
[23:07] <mwhudson> i guess "disks connected to the right ports"
[23:08] <mwhudson> can you create multiple containers out of disjoint subsets of candidate disks? i guess so
[23:13] <xnox> you can have many controllers too
[23:13] <xnox> typically and different disks connected to each one
[23:13] <xnox> sudo mdadm --detail --detail-platform
[23:13] <xnox> is what you call to check if there are any controllers that support intel matrix raid.
[23:14] <xnox> that call can be done on any machine
[23:18] <xnox> iDRAC thing is scary
[23:44] <mwhudson> ah so disks are connected to a controller
[23:44] <mwhudson> xnox: sorry attention wandered for a bit there
[23:45] <mwhudson> so if you're creating a container, you then have to choose which controller (if >1) and then can choose disks attached to that controller