[01:44] <jsgotangco> morning
[01:44] <mdke> good night :)
[01:45] <jsgotangco> acckk
[01:45] <jsgotangco> froud's email was long icckkk
[01:45] <jsgotangco> but explained clearly
[01:45] <mdke> yeah
[01:46] <jsgotangco> but golly, my edits still didnt show images i guess he's going to change global.ent
[01:50] <jsgotangco> ok ill see you guys later im the one cooking breakfast today
[01:50] <jsgotangco> bbl
[08:35] <froud> African Greetings
[08:36] <Burgundavia> salut
[08:37] <Burgundavia> everybody loves 4am meetings
[08:39] <jeffsch> hey froud
[08:39] <jeffsch> there is a booboo in the i18n solution :(
[08:40] <jeffsch> I did some research today to find out why jsgotangco's excellent updates were not working.
[08:40] <jeffsch> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;"> is not entirely correct.
[08:40] <jeffsch> The '%' makes 'language' a parameter entity.
[08:41] <jeffsch> Parameter entities can only be used in a DTD.
[08:41] <jeffsch> In the document itself you must use general entities such as '&language;'
[08:42] <jeffsch> Therefore, this is how it should be:
[08:42] <jeffsch> <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;">
[08:42] <jeffsch> <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG"/>
[08:43] <jeffsch> I tried it in yelp with 'C' and 'it' languages. It works like that.
[08:44] <jeffsch> I committed a couple of changes. Can you verify that what I did is correct? Then we can update the rest.
[08:44] <froud> jeffsch: hi, just hold lemme test
[08:49] <froud> yes you a re right
[08:49] <froud> it is my fault
[08:49] <froud> I did say use a param ent
[08:49] <jeffsch> bah. just a typo.
[08:49] <froud> no I said use a param ent
[08:50] <froud> I must send an update to that message I sent
[08:53] <jeffsch> froud: on a different topic: in yelp for quickguide, etc, xref's show up as block elements
[08:53] <jeffsch> they are larger fonts, on their own lines, etc
[08:54] <jeffsch> but on yelp with update manager they are correctly used as inline elements, with clickable links
[08:54] <froud> Yes, I noted this as a bug after release
[08:55] <froud> we fixed it at our meeting and then it was forgotten to include it in the releave by the devs
[08:55] <froud> geeze I hate being dependant on yelp
[08:56] <jeffsch> it's what's there
[08:56] <jeffsch> do we have the power to change?
[08:56] <froud> Sure
[08:56] <froud> For now I would like just to use a plain web browser
[08:56] <froud> and research into a new help viewer
[08:57] <jeffsch> must build consensus first though. will take some time.
[08:58] <froud> Sure
[08:58] <froud> did you read the message from JanC
[08:58] <froud> I think a blend of wxWidget's/wxPython's help system + a 'system-wide'
[08:58] <froud> indexing system like Beagle + maybe yelp could become a better
[08:58] <froud> documentation environment...
[08:59] <jeffsch> yes, but I didn't look into it... was busy with entities...
[08:59] <froud> Burgundavia: yeah 4 am is harsh
[08:59] <Burgundavia> I will just stay up
[08:59] <Burgundavia> I am the only person out my way anyway
[08:59] <froud> I will update them in the other docs
[08:59] <froud> What time is it for South Africa
[09:00] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: vancouver's not that far :)
[09:00] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:00] <Burgundavia> I forgot about you
[09:00] <froud> The time is UTC and I only know GMT
[09:00] <jeffsch> utc = gmt,no?
[09:00] <Burgundavia> ahh UTC==GMT?
[09:01] <froud> is it?
[09:01] <froud> so she means 10 pm GMT?
[09:01] <jeffsch> 4am here is 1pm there
[09:01] <froud> on Sunday
[09:01] <Burgundavia> according to WP it doews
[09:02] <jeffsch> 1pm in za
[09:03] <froud> so then UTC is not GMT
[09:03] <froud> confused
[09:03] <froud> I hate the time zones
[09:04] <froud> just use internet time
[09:04] <froud> used it for 4 years
[09:04] <froud> the same time everywhere
[09:05] <froud> is there an ez web site work this tuff out
[09:05] <Burgundavia> UTC is GMT
[09:05] <jeffsch> UTC is GMT. 1200 UTC = 1200 GMT = 1pm za
[09:05] <jeffsch> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/personal.html
[09:07] <froud> Oh cause we are =2 or something
[09:09] <froud> Burgundavia:
[09:09] <froud> Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 10:00:00	Sun Noon
[09:09] <froud> Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 11:00:00	Sun 1:00 PM
[09:09] <froud> so 10 is noon
[09:09] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:09] <froud> Hmm thanks for that web site
[09:10] <froud> geeze internet time is so much easier
[09:10] <froud> jeffsch: all updates are now done
[09:10] <froud> jeffsch: thanks for checking that
[09:10] <jeffsch> np
[09:10] <froud> ok I have a question for you guys
[09:11] <froud> and anyone else who is listening
[09:11] <froud> so far we are just going by the seat of our pants when it comes to deining documents
[09:11] <froud> defining
[09:12] <froud> I think it will be a worthwhile excercise for us to ask the users what they want
[09:12] <froud> wiki is perfect for this
[09:13] <froud> I want to get Content Specifications, User Analysis and that stuff
[09:13] <froud> Lets actualy learn who the audience is and what tasks they want to know about
[09:14] <froud> how long using linux and what problems did they have
[09:14] <froud> put a poll up and ask for answers and provide place to give commnet
[09:14] <froud> thoughts?
[09:15] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[09:15] <jeffsch> let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers.
[09:15] <jeffsch> aren't they the target market?
[09:15] <froud> not really
[09:16] <froud> you see we also have admins
[09:16] <froud> and people who have used linux
[09:16] <jeffsch> people new to administering linux? or people new to administering ubuntu?
[09:17] <froud> My normal, formal approach, to writing is 4 steps:
[09:17] <froud> 1. Create goals and objectives for the publication
[09:17] <froud> 2. Analyze the product, audience, and environment
[09:17] <froud> 3. Analyze the tasks the audience wants to perform
[09:18] <froud> 4. Organize the publications and prepare rational
[09:19] <froud> This gives me:
[09:19] <jeffsch> that's pretty much what I learned in school. make a document plan - it has user-task analysis, TOC, etc
[09:19] <froud> a. Purpose of the guide
[09:19] <froud> b. Product Desription
[09:19] <froud> c. Audience profile
[09:20] <froud> d task analysis
[09:20] <froud> from this I can outline to the exact user requirements
[09:20] <mpt> sounds good
[09:20] <froud> jeffsch: yes, obviously it is more complex
[09:20] <froud> mpt: hi, please to meet you
[09:20] <mpt> likewise
[09:20] <froud> mpt: thanks for your feedabck
[09:21] <mpt> arg
[09:21] <froud> I think by putting it open for contributions form the users we can get a better handle on what we should do
[09:21] <mpt> I meant to reply to Mary's message but it got lost in Thunderbird
[09:21] <froud> we have not done this
[09:22] <froud> Maybe people at Canonical can help us short circuit this if they have market and user analysis already done
[09:22] <froud> mpt?
[09:22] <mpt> I doubt that
[09:22] <mpt> but that's not really my area
[09:23] <mpt> You'd be better asking jdub about that, I think
[09:23] <froud> Then I think this excercise will have huge benefit outside the docteam
[09:23] <mpt> other than being the dominant Linux-based OS
[09:23] <froud> mpt: nah I just ask Mark
[09:23] <mpt> that would work too
[09:23] <mpt> though it might be slower :-)
[09:24] <froud> no he is responsive
[09:24] <froud> if it seems important to him
[09:24] <froud> another idea
[09:25] <froud> I am really tired of Yelp
[09:25] <froud> I mean it
[09:25] <mpt> so fork it
[09:25] <froud> Oh yeah and develop it?
[09:25] <froud> no, short circuit me = lazy
[09:25] <Burgundavia> yelp is also gtk
[09:25] <froud> me = focus on docs
[09:25] <mpt> Well, which would be quicker? Adding search to yelp, or writing a new help viewer?
[09:26] <froud> using any browser XHTML/HTML + CSS and jscript
[09:26] <froud> htdig search
[09:26] <jeffsch> is that the only thing wrong with yelp? lack of search?
[09:26] <froud> jeffsch: no
[09:27] <froud> poor custom abilities without editing the source
[09:27] <froud> proprietry tags like ghelp
[09:27] <mpt> custom abilities like what?
[09:27] <mpt> Like Open the Keyboard applet for me
[09:27] <mpt> ?
[09:28] <froud> use an dubuntu custom layer to style the resulting output not only that of yelp
[09:28] <froud> invalid processing instructions like <?yelp:chunk-depth 3?>
[09:29] <froud> lack of support for docbook 4.3 >
[09:29] <froud> lack of support for SVG
[09:29] <froud> thi slist is long
[09:29] <froud> oh an dit is slow on mpt 's lappy
[09:29] <mpt> heh
[09:30] <mpt> and ...
[09:30] <froud> chaps I think like this
[09:30] <froud> you all know how the quick guide looks
[09:30] <mpt> ... 19 seconds!
[09:30] <froud> imagine if you have associated tasks on the right side of the screencapt
[09:31] <froud> a list that is dynamically built by jscript and formatted using css
[09:32] <froud> Ability to do popups
[09:32] <froud> ability to create comments inline to the help system
[09:32] <froud> ability to share comments and send them
[09:32] <mpt> I'm trying to think of use cases for dynamically built lists and popups
[09:32] <froud> mpt: easy
[09:33] <mpt> Apple Help uses HTML nowadays, but the result is that every non-Apple help file looks different, and that's bad
[09:33] <froud> This is x app. It is use to do Y.
[09:33] <mpt> e.g. different font sizes for no reason
[09:33] <froud> alongside all the tasks assocaited with the app
[09:33] <froud> our stylesheets control that
[09:34] <froud> Apple should use Docbook
[09:34] <mpt> wait, wait
[09:34] <mpt> So Apple should switch from HTML to Docbook, and Ubuntu should switch from Docbook to HTML?
[09:34] <mpt> :-)
[09:34] <froud> mpt: no
[09:34] <froud> we use docbook as a semantic format for storage
[09:34] <froud> it is presnetation layer neutral
[09:35] <froud> we transform from xml to html
[09:35] <froud> or pdf or ps or rtf or what ever
[09:35] <froud> yelp does this under the covers
[09:35] <froud> that is one reason why it takes so long to load
[09:36] <mpt> Why does it do any transformations at all?
[09:36] <froud> yelp takes raw xml and transfroms it to html for viewing
[09:37] <froud> xml is not a presentation format
[09:37] <mpt> XML+CSS is presentable
[09:37] <mpt> ah, but it's not linkable
[09:37] <froud> it seperates the concrns of content and presentation
[09:37] <froud> not so easy
[09:37] <mpt> XML+XSL even more so
[09:38] <froud> mpt: let me explain
[09:38] <froud> The Docbook XSLs are powerful
[09:38] <froud> we can transform to XHTML, HTML, PDF, HTML help, JAVAHelp, etc
[09:39] <froud> it has support for gen texts in i18n
[09:39] <froud> the work is done
[09:39] <mpt> ok
[09:39] <froud> we put Docbook XML and XSL into an xslt processor
[09:39] <froud> that gives us a presentation format
[09:40] <froud> the format depends on the XSL used
[09:40] <froud> now we dont hack the docbook package sources
[09:40] <froud> we create a custom layer
[09:40] <froud> this allows us to change the standard formating provided by the docbook packages
[09:41] <froud> when the docbook packages are upgraded we inherit all the updaes
[09:41] <froud> and all we do is maintain our custom later
[09:41] <mpt> So can you get rid of those previous and next links at the bottom of each page, for example?
[09:41] <froud> yes
[09:41] <mpt> hooray
[09:41] <froud> but not in yelp
[09:42] <mpt> then what?
[09:42] <froud> because we would have to hack the yelp xsl and compile it again
[09:42] <froud> so I say screw yelp
[09:42] <froud> it is to inlexible and give overhead
[09:42] <froud> go to any browser
[09:42] <froud> we have ful control
[09:43] <Burgundavia> browser isn't much faster to load though
[09:43] <mpt> ok, but you're still going to need to make a help viewer, froud
[09:43] <froud> in our custom layer
[09:43] <froud> no
[09:43] <froud> for now we do HTML Help
[09:43] <froud> and CSS it and manipulate with jscript
[09:43] <froud> this gives us a toc and pages
[09:44] <froud> we have full control of the toc
[09:44] <froud> a search facility is also easy
[09:44] <mpt> actual Web browser chrome, complete with bookmarks bars and "Send Link..." and cookie prefs and its own help menu that's mostly about browsing, just would not work as a help UI
[09:45] <froud> mpt: atually most people spend there time on the web looking for help
[09:45] <froud> thier
[09:46] <mpt> I thought most people spent their time on the web bidding on auctions and looking at porn
[09:46] <Burgundavia> mpt, that is most office workers
[09:46] <froud> amongst other things
[09:46] <froud> mpt: I am not saying using a full web browser is the ideal answer
[09:47] <froud> I amsaying that it is workable immediately
[09:47] <froud> with a level of control to us
[09:47] <froud> oneday, maybe somebody will build a good help viewer
[09:47] <froud> but frankly I think the days of help viewers are numbered in single digits
[09:48] <mpt> I'm still waiting for a good one
[09:48] <mpt> but even Windows ME's one was better than a Web browser
[09:49] <froud> mpt: by going this route we have another advantage
[09:49] <froud> the help system can be loaded from a web server or local disk
[09:49] <mpt> That involves fun security considerations
[09:50] <froud> like
[09:50] <mpt> like, the various security vulnerabilities in the Windows help viewer that, over the years, have allowed attackers to run arbitrary programs
[09:50] <froud> I dont se the point
[09:50] <mpt> because it uses the IE HTML rendering engine
[09:51] <mpt> and can view remote stuff
[09:51] <froud> and we will use any browsers rendering engine
[09:51] <froud> I still dont see why this is a problem
[09:51] <mpt> ok, so
[09:52] <mpt> how do you get the search field into the UI?
[09:52] <froud> loading a page from a web site is something mils of user do every day
[09:52] <froud> Ah ha, XForms
[09:52] <froud> and andthing like cgi
[09:52] <froud> even python
[09:52] <froud> there are numbers of tools for that
[09:53] <froud> Goodness we can even integrate google
[09:53] <froud> or lucerne
[09:53] <froud> the power is endless
[09:54] <froud> for admins help can be installe don the server only
[09:54] <froud> for home users on thier local
[09:55] <mpt> So, no help topic on "Troubleshooting server connections" then? :-)
[09:55] <froud> topics need to be analyzed
[09:55] <froud> and can be personalized
[09:56] <mpt> Do any other OSes personalize the topics in their help system?
[09:56] <jsgotangco> froud: i screwed up?
[09:56] <mpt> That sounds like running before walking to me
[09:56] <froud> jsgotangco: no I did
[09:56] <froud> mpt: vision dude
[09:56] <jsgotangco> it should have been & then
[09:56] <froud> just caus ethey dont have does not mean it is not wanted
[09:57] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, my mistake , sorry
[09:57] <froud> thanks to jeffsch for spotting it
[09:57] <jeffsch> froud: you forgot <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;">
[09:57] <froud> mpt: you complain about it but fail to look beyond for a better solution
[09:58] <jeffsch> I am changing them now
[09:58] <froud> jeffsch: why does that need changing?
[09:58] <froud> jeffsch: you mean in the i18n docs
[09:58] <mpt> froud: I'm not complaining, I'm wondering why you don't just take the first step first
[09:58] <jeffsch> froud: yes
[09:58] <froud> what is that first step, where does it lead
[09:58] <mpt> froud: which is to start with the things most people will be wanting to know, most of the time
[09:58] <froud> jeffsch: yes, thanks
[09:59] <mpt> froud: then if you get really smart later, you can personalize it
[09:59] <froud> lets seperate things here
[09:59] <froud> the help system app and the content it displays
[10:00] <froud> for content I am proposing we do an analysis that includes user inpt
[10:01] <froud> for the help system I am prposing moving away from yelp so that we can excert control
[10:01] <jsgotangco> i'd go for the migrant's guide (like playing stuff, office work, etc.)
[10:01] <mpt> froud, unless you're going to collect that user input by sneaking up behind people using Ubuntu and watching them, I think you'd be better just to guess
[10:01] <froud> mpt: yelp uses scrollkeeper to decide what goes in the first page
[10:01] <mpt> what's scrollkeeper?
[10:01] <froud> mpt: I dont think so
[10:02] <mpt> froud: Because any other way you collect it -- surveys, wiki pages, mailing lists, whatever -- acts as an enormous barrier to entry. The kind of people who most need help are the kind of people who will never edit a wiki or post on a mailing list.
[10:02] <mpt> And in surveys in general, people will lie so as not to sound dumb.
[10:03] <froud> mpt: as I said, this is why one has to understand the doc systems. I hear your grievances, I agree with most, but to get a solution I must think outside the box
[10:03] <jsgotangco> are you saying we make our guide like a dummies book?
[10:03] <mpt> So, my suggestion is: guess. :-)
[10:03] <froud> I want and educated guess
[10:04] <mpt> ok, I'll re-reply to Mary's message now
[10:04] <froud> mpt: Uhmm, now you leave
[10:04] <mpt> eh?
[10:04] <froud> mpt: you going
[10:04] <mpt> It's 8pm, the cafe closes in an hour or less
[10:05] <mpt> I'll hang around here while I can, though
[10:05] <froud> I c you are in an Internet Cafe
[10:05] <mpt> Yes, no DSL at home yet
[10:05] <mpt> and Ubuntu doesn't understand the laptop's modem
[10:05] <froud> Oh OK
[10:05] <froud> yes heard that from a number of users
[10:06] <froud> well team, what do you guys think of this conversation and the ideas we have bashed
[10:06] <jsgotangco> ive tuned in late
[10:06] <jsgotangco> i still want a dummy guide
[10:06] <froud> js read the logs
[10:06] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, dummy guide ala the faqguide is coming
[10:07] <froud> dummy guides are good but not like by all
[10:07] <Burgundavia> dummy guides sell like hotcakes
[10:07] <froud> I dontthink we can say what we want. We should ask the users to gleen what they want, then decide
[10:07] <jsgotangco> i would think more of the migrating users
[10:07] <Burgundavia> they must have something going for them
[10:07] <jeffsch> i still like "let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers."
[10:08] <jsgotangco> jeffsch right on target
[10:08] <froud> Burgundavia: yes they do cause they address a need in one audience
[10:08] <jsgotangco> people who install ubuntu know how to play around with their computers
[10:08] <Burgundavia> froud, a very large audience, if the sales are to be believed
[10:08] <froud> but for my user profile I want O'Reilly or SAMS
[10:08] <Burgundavia> froud, so do I, but I don't need docs written for me
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I can search the internet for that
[10:08] <froud> The major market segment is huge
[10:09] <froud> Burgundavia: no we use man pages
[10:09] <froud> :-)
[10:09] <Burgundavia> ugh, man pages
[10:09] <Burgundavia> what a waste of time mostly
[10:09] <jsgotangco> ickk
[10:09] <froud> Oh no dude love man pages
[10:09] <froud> ssh in to remote and you have help
[10:10] <jeffsch> i use them all the time. i always forget command line stuff.
[10:10] <froud> I am speaking about no GUI here
[10:10] <froud> I dont go to yelp for help on commnad stuff
[10:10] <jsgotangco> true
[10:10] <froud> I just man foo
[10:10] <jsgotangco> dont we all
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I like GUIs and the power they give
[10:10] <Burgundavia> in fact, I like GUIs so much that I hate ugly ones
[10:11] <mpt> I wish more man pages had a couple of good examples at the beginning
[10:11] <froud> Burgundavia: agree 1000%
[10:11] <Burgundavia> ala xmms and mplayer and other gtk1 crap
[10:11] <mpt> then I wouldn't need to read the rest of them :-)
[10:11] <Burgundavia> mpt, absolutely. Show me, in examples, the 4 most commons ways that program is used
[10:11] <froud> mpt: man pages assume a level of proficeincy that is above our user
[10:12] <mpt> naturally
[10:13] <froud> Burgundavia: if we use the HTML/CSS/JSCRIPT route I am proposing we can break from the top down vertical approach common in current help systems
[10:13] <Burgundavia> froud, top down?
[10:13] <froud> yes see a gnome manual
[10:14] <froud> each topic is vertical
[10:14] <froud> it would be nice to have side bars and tool tips
[10:14] <froud> Some links dont have to be clicked
[10:15] <froud> Just hold your mouse pointer over it
[10:15] <jsgotangco> thats not possible with yelp but with a browser based system
[10:15] <froud> and you see the text
[10:15] <mpt> froud, the thing about help is
[10:15] <froud> jsgotangco: that is what I am saying
[10:15] <mpt> and help developers on every OS get this wrong
[10:15] <mpt> the thing about help is that it needs to be *alongside* what I'm doing
[10:15] <mpt> so it needs to be, maybe, 200px wide.
[10:15] <froud> mpt: no problem
[10:15] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[10:15] <mpt> otherwise I keep having to flip between the help and the program I'm trying to use
[10:15] <mpt> forward and back, forward and back
[10:15] <froud> most programming envs have browser controls
[10:16] <mpt> and it's too much bother
[10:16] <jsgotangco> alongside, is that similiar to a help system in MS Office
[10:16] <Burgundavia> and every time I flip I have to reorient myself
[10:16] <mpt> Yes, Works and Office both solve that problem, in slightly different ways
[10:16] <jeffsch> mpt: acrobat 7 does that. 200 px wide on right hand side of screen
[10:16] <Burgundavia> so we need support for dynamic shrinking
[10:16] <froud> using the method I am proposing devs can embed a browser control at any position in the workspace
[10:16] <mpt> A pity that the actual OS help system doesn't :-)
[10:16] <froud> jeffsch: yes and we can use that
[10:17] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, adobe reader 7is evil
[10:17] <jeffsch> i not talking about reader.
[10:17] <froud> Burgundavia: dynamic shinking is can be done
[10:17] <froud> but images
[10:17] <jsgotangco> ok if its 200 px wide, it shouldn't be as high as the actual application
[10:17] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, why not?
[10:17] <jeffsch> acrobat 7 for creating and manipulating pdf. reviewing docs.
[10:18] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, the actual thing, not the reader, ok
[10:18] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia you eat up real estate space on the application
[10:18] <froud> dudes the technology is not important
[10:18] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, I really wish they would rebrand the reader to avoid this kind of confusion
[10:18] <froud> the concept is
[10:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, but the app has just shrunk 200, so that top corner is going to be wasted
[10:18] <jsgotangco> froud maybe something similar to Opera's small screen rendering
[10:19] <froud> jsgotangco: yes there is another idea
[10:19] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: they more interested in the money than the clarity, i suspect.
[10:19] <froud> mypointis that via html route we can do this stuff easily
[10:19] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, yes
[10:19] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, reader 7 has a semi-spyware in it
[10:20] <mpt> oh man
[10:20] <mpt> this is depressing
[10:20] <jsgotangco> what?
[10:20] <froud> Ok, I see you guys are not into discussing solutions I am off t go be productive
[10:20] <jsgotangco> no
[10:21] <jsgotangco> im all for discussion
[10:21] <jsgotangco> i believe an html based system is easier and can be changed system wide at the least possible time
[10:21] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, but we need the group here
[10:21] <froud> trying to keep on topic in IRC is a nighmare
[10:22] <froud> I am focused on concepts that will work
[10:22] <froud> ideas from the group are important
[10:22] <froud> not what technology to use
[10:23] <froud> or that x app is evil
[10:23] <froud> hello daven
[10:23] <jsgotangco> ok resizing the text is quite easy but we'll have a problem in the images/screenshots
[10:23] <daven> hiya
[10:23] <jsgotangco> but Opera dynamically resizes stuff with SSR
[10:23] <froud> jsgotangco: perhaps we can just generate links to images
[10:23] <mpt> jsgotangco: If I already have a program open, screenshots are not terribly interesting.
[10:23] <jsgotangco> maybe somethine like that
[10:23] <froud> jsgotangco: yes that is Opera
[10:23] <froud> we need any bowser
[10:24] <mpt> jsgotangco: If you have pictures at all, just make them pictures of what button to click.
[10:24] <Burgundavia> then we don't need the full power of ff
[10:24] <froud> we cannot mandate what user agent our docs will run under
[10:24] <jsgotangco> zoom into the actual stuff?
[10:24] <Burgundavia> we need mozembed
[10:24] <froud> Burgundavia: exaplain
[10:24] <Burgundavia> if we are only talked at a minimum 600 tall by 200 wide, then the ui of ff is too much
[10:24] <froud> ff?
[10:25] <froud> firefox
[10:25] <Burgundavia> mozembed is the gecko rendering engine
[10:25] <froud> ok
[10:25] <froud> why is that a problem
[10:25] <Burgundavia> can be really easily done with python
[10:25] <froud> how
[10:26] <Burgundavia> because the ff ui is already going to eat up 25% of that space, and isn't designed to be run at 200px wide
[10:26] <jeffsch> keep in mind 200px is just a number tossed out there
[10:26] <jeffsch> it could be more
[10:27] <Burgundavia> 200px is already a quarter of someones 800X600 screen
[10:27] <froud> OK OK, lets clear something first
[10:27] <froud> at present most apps dont support what we are saying here
[10:27] <froud> what is importnat is that our format enables them too
[10:27] <Burgundavia> and yelp already uses gecko
[10:27] <mpt> I never said they had to resize themselves automatically
[10:27] <Burgundavia> I am talking a seperate window
[10:27] <mpt> I just want to be *able* to have them side by side
[10:27] <Burgundavia> not part of the app
[10:28] <mpt> the windows, side by side
[10:28] <froud> mpt: can be in windows or in embeded expand/collapse control
[10:29] <jeffsch> yes, the windows, side by side
[10:29] <froud> so long as the window or control reads html/XHML, CSS and supports jscript were fine
[10:29] <froud> I thnk that devs will decide on how they will impliment it
[10:29] <jeffsch> design the help system, then determine the technology to use
[10:29] <froud> what we need to endure is that they can read and render in a standard way
[10:29] <froud> jeffsch: yes
[10:30] <froud> but keep in mind
[10:30] <froud> we must make it flexible and easy for apps and the devs to use
[10:30] <froud> the simplest solution IMHO is the X/HTML route
[10:31] <froud> our prime focus is not the application layer and we have little control over it
[10:31] <froud> what we do have control over is the structure and meat of our content and the format in which we make it accessible
[10:32] <froud> we can however suggest various methods for viewing and make input for usability recomendations
[10:33] <froud> OK lets see if we have the skill set needed
[10:33] <froud> I take it we all are comfortable with docbook
[10:33] <froud> and the method we use to transform
[10:33] <froud> who codes html here
[10:34] <froud> who knows css
[10:34] <froud> who knows jscript
[10:34] <froud> who understands and can impliment an idexing and search facility
[10:34] <jsgotangco> i know html and css
[10:35] <jsgotangco> ive done some xml but not docbook but im learning
[10:35] <froud> cool any other skills
[10:35] <froud> any python boys here
[10:35] <jeffsch> I know html, css, jscript, but am far from expert.
[10:35] <froud> jeffsch: great
[10:35] <jeffsch> I fooled around with python last year. will take some time to get back into it.
[10:35] <froud> but you can muddle through
[10:36] <froud> enough to finally get waht you want?
[10:36] <jeffsch> oh yea. It takes a long time though... lots of poring over python docs
[10:37] <froud> ok :-)
[10:37] <froud> so with the current speakers we do have the skill set for what we want to do
[10:37] <froud> I will focus on the XML and XSLT
[10:38] <jeffsch> and the doc content? who will focus on that?
[10:38] <froud> :-) all of us
[10:39] <froud> but I would like to do the needs analysis before hacking the content this time
[10:39] <froud> chaps when I joined this project it was only really enrico and I who were serious
[10:39] <froud> 2 people
[10:40] <froud> we had people on the list and people in the channel, but they did not do much
[10:40] <froud> since then we have quadrupled in size
[10:40] <froud> this is both good and bad
[10:40] <froud> good we can do more cover more ground
[10:40] <froud> bad, we need more organization
[10:41] <froud> roles and responsabilities now comes tomind
[10:41] <froud> but I am afraid to say it
[10:41] <froud> I know that I am commit here
[10:41] <froud> I cant speak for everyone
[10:41] <froud> some of us may come and go
[10:41] <froud> that's open source
[10:42] <froud> so I hope people will find what it is they want to do
[10:42] <froud> and go for it
[10:42] <jsg> sorry about that
[10:42] <froud> everyon eon eof us is toatll empoered to do what ever we wish
[10:42] <jeffsch> so each doc needs its own plan, its own design, a skeleton. Then people can come and go. just fill in the skeleton
[10:42] <jsg> let me check the log first
[10:43] <froud> jeffsch: yes that is the idea
[10:43] <froud> hence I want specs etc
[10:43] <jeffsch> and a style guide
[10:43] <froud> jeffsch: that is a big task
[10:44] <froud> we need to take styleguides from upstream
[10:44] <froud> they are guides not rules
[10:44] <jsg> who took html and css i can do that
[10:44] <froud> jsg: more hands makes light work
[10:44] <jeffsch> big task, but needed with lots of contributors.http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/
[10:45] <froud> jeffsch: the specs etc are also good for new people joining mid stream
[10:45] <jsg> souds good to me
[10:45] <froud> it defines for them points where we are and wer ethey can fit
[10:45] <froud> it saves us having the problem I had with Burgundavia
[10:46] <Burgundavia> what issue? There was no issue
[10:46] <jsg> i've messed with ruby not python :(
[10:46] <froud> we are now at the beginning of a release cycle, if we spend 10% of our time planning it will save us much headache
[10:47] <froud> we cannot plan if we
[10:47] <froud> a. dontknow what users need
[10:47] <froud> b. have no spec to follow
[10:47] <froud> c. have no objectives to bind our focus
[10:48] <jsg> b can be tough
[10:48] <froud> I know that mpt thinks the analysis will be no good, does anyone else agree on this point
[10:49] <Burgundavia> mpt analysis is useful as long it is: short, sweet and too the poing
[10:49] <Burgundavia> the point, even
[10:49] <mpt> It's quite easy to do analysis, it's just very time-consuming
[10:49] <mpt> First, put some duct tape over your mouth
[10:49] <mpt> second, watch someone use Ubuntu
[10:49] <mpt> Repeat those two steps, as many times as you can
[10:49] <Burgundavia> having watched people use windows, it is painful
[10:49] <froud> mpt: we dont have a way to watch enough users
[10:49] <mpt> froud: exactly
[10:50] <jeffsch> i don't think we can get good info from users, and we will end up just designing for people new to linux but not new to computers
[10:50] <mpt> froud: And any other way of doing it will be grossly inaccurate
[10:50] <Burgundavia> yes we, mandatory spyng apps!!
[10:50] <froud> so we know the problem now we need a solution
[10:50] <jeffsch> after 4 months
[10:50] <mpt> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html
[10:50] <froud> mpt: I dont think perfect is immediate
[10:50] <froud> mpt: but something is better tan nothing
[10:50] <mpt> http://<IP_ADDRESS>/search?q=cache:Gu3DlVK73xcJ:www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html+don%27t+listen+to+users&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox&strip=1
[10:51] <jsg> why not consult our forums? we usually get common questions and stuff
[10:52] <froud> I can listen to users I cant watch what they do, that is 50%
[10:52] <froud> better than 0%
[10:52] <Burgundavia> the forums have some pretty common questions that we could boil down in about a day to a couple of common things
[10:52] <froud> mpt: that is not finding a solution, we need to be creative on this
[10:52] <daven> a lot of the stuff is already in the wiki, as far as i can see
[10:53] <daven> a lot of the common questions
[10:53] <froud> daven: yes
[10:53] <mpt> froud: I already suggested a solution: guess. I'm writing up my guess on the wiki now.
[10:53] <Burgundavia> the most common problem is that of not finding the info they need, and not having a common place to send people
[10:53] <daven> but users aren't finding it - either they're not looking or it's not accessible enough
[10:54] <froud> not exactly for our purpose here but see this matix
[10:54] <froud> http://linuxvm.org/penguinvm/presentations/LinuxUserProfile.html
[10:54] <Burgundavia> http://<IP_ADDRESS>/search?q=cache:eqx-zkGesZ4J:www.nngroup.com/events/tutorials/camp.html+&hl=en&client=firefox
[10:54] <Burgundavia> hmm, big surprise, 3 women out of 4 instructors
[10:55] <froud> are people behind a study or not?
[10:55] <froud> do you want 0% or 50%
[10:56] <mdke> without having read the whole discussion...
[10:56] <mdke> i support consulting users, but I think also we should use common sense to figure out what is required
[10:56] <froud> mdke: hello dude
[10:56] <mdke> yo
[10:56] <jeffsch> i feel a study will take a long time and not accomplish much
[10:56] <mpt> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline
[10:56] <mpt> There you go
[10:56] <jeffsch> it will take a month just to agree on how to conduct the study
[10:57] <froud> I have templates and plans that I use for my projects
[10:57] <mdke> yes i tend to agree with jeffsch that the time put in might not weigh up with the benefits gained, but I think it is important to take users needs into account :/
[10:57] <mpt> Ok, I have to get out of here
[10:58] <froud> mpt file that under he Doceam
[10:58] <froud> Docteam
[10:58] <froud> mpt thanks
[10:58] <mpt> ok, tomorrow if I have time
[10:58] <froud> sure
[10:58] <froud> come to the meeting
[10:59] <froud> jeffsch: it takes abot 10% of project time
[11:00] <mdke> ok i'm out, see you guys tomorrow
[11:00] <froud> Ok dudes think on what we has said here. It has been productive. I now have a meeting and must leave you for awhile. Thoughts and feeling to th elist
[11:00] <froud> if you feel I am to pushing on this, say so
[11:00] <jgotangco> ok sounds good im going to the barber
[11:01] <jeffsch> i should go too. bed time.
[11:15] <Burgundavia> 95% of users questions could be solved by googling
[11:16] <daven> burgundavia: i'm not that amazing at troubleshooting - reasonably new to linux.  i'm just sat there searching the wiki and google, and replying...
[11:16] <Burgundavia> indeed
[11:17] <Burgundavia> I can see why certain channels get reps though
[11:17] <daven> i don't think people always understand that there isn't anyone on there who knows about *everything*
[11:17] <Burgundavia> generally, you will find somebody who knows something
[11:17] <Burgundavia> and the 90/10 rules helps you
[11:27] <daven> what, 90% of questions on 10% of topics, or something?
[11:28] <daven> yes - it does seem a pretty good bet
[11:28] <daven> i'm waiting for a quiet moment for my question ;)
[11:28] <Burgundavia> what is yours?
[11:29] <Burgundavia> goog^H^H^HI might be able to help you
[11:29] <daven> lol
[11:29] <daven> i'll ask in the main room - might as well give others the benefit...
[11:54] <abelli> halo
[11:56] <Burgundavia> salut
[12:44] <mpt> Ah, the joys of Win98
[12:44] <jsgotangco> wow
[12:45] <Burgundavia> mpt, when have you had to suffer that?
[12:45] <jsgotangco> one reason i keep my windows here is because i play a couple of games
[12:45] <mpt> Burgundavia: right now :-)
[12:46] <Burgundavia> mpt, why, in gods are name, are you doing that?
[12:46] <mpt> Burgundavia: Because I can't dial up on my laptop
[12:46] <Burgundavia> mpt, oh fun
[12:48] <jsgotangco> mpt same here
[12:48] <Burgundavia> the joys of living in a big city in one of the most connected countries on the planet
[12:49] <Burgundavia> last time I saw dialup was about 1 year ago, when I wasn;t in a big city
[12:49] <daven> when i went on holiday i had to use GPRS - i'm still waiting for the bill :-s
[12:50] <jsgotangco> dsl is still expensive in my place but its metered so i still use pre-paid dial up sometimes
[12:50] <daven> hmm... how do they meter the dsl?
[12:51] <jsgotangco> you pay per MB excess of the allocation they give you
[12:51] <jsgotangco> its crap imo
[12:51] <daven> right - what's the allocation?
[12:52] <daven> i'm thinking about moving to a pay as you go broadband.
[12:53] <jsg> gyaahh
[12:53] <daven> for half the price 512Kbps unlimited, I could have 1Mbps with 1GB included.  the price would increase up to 6GB, at which point the cost would cap at the same as my current 512Kbps
[12:56] <mpt> Sunday 1200 UTC
[12:56] <mpt> hmm, what's that
[12:56] <mpt> That's midnight on Monday morning, woohoo
[12:56] <jsg> hehe
[12:56] <Burgundavia> 4am here
[12:56] <abelli> where can i find little and explicative description of boot up services?
[12:57] <abelli> i need them for something like an Ubuntu Boot Manager
[12:57] <jsg> 1200 UTC is a nice 8PM in my side
[12:57] <Burgundavia> abelli, Ubuntu boot manager?
[12:57] <abelli> (not mine, a friend of mine did it, and i think he did a nice thing) ...
[12:57] <Burgundavia> abelli, doesn't gnome already have something like this?
[12:57] <abelli> Burgundavia: maybe for sessions
[12:58] <abelli> not services ... afaik.
[12:58] <Burgundavia> abelli, ah, there is a grub editor, that is what I was thinking about
[12:58] <abelli> ahh oik
[12:58] <abelli> Burgundavia: any idea?
[12:58] <Burgundavia> abelli, hmm, scripts in rc.d?
[12:59] <abelli> yes, i need something that explain what the services that those script bring up&&down are.
[12:59] <Burgundavia> abelli, should be pretty easy. Which do you have a question about?
[01:00] <abelli> everyone, isnt there something already done?
[01:00] <abelli> well i think i can write them myself, but i was looking for something already done ...
[01:02] <capsula> Burgundavia: any idea?
[01:02] <jsg> ok its time to play WOW...brb
[01:03] <Burgundavia> abelli, not really
[01:03] <abelli> Burgundavia: thank you anyway.
[01:03] <abelli> Kinnison: can you tail -15 and help me?
[01:03] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what does you name mean?
[01:03] <jsgotangco> my nick?
[01:04] <jsgotangco> that is my name
[01:04] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:04] <jsgotangco> gotangco is my surname which is my chinese name
[01:04] <Burgundavia> ah
[01:05] <jsgotangco> i used to have other nicks but since i went to freenode ive just used my name
[01:05] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:06] <abelli> jsgotangco: yes
[01:06] <jsgotangco> oohh google video upload program
[01:07] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if it is CC then you can upload to WP as well
[01:07] <abelli> jsgotangco: where do you live?
[01:07] <jsgotangco> abelli i live in Manila, Philippines
[01:08] <jsgotangco> but i was born in Taiwan
[01:08] <abelli> taiwan? the home of electronics ahh
[01:09] <jsgotangco> yes sir..home of good and bad electronics heh
[01:09] <abelli> electronics in general :)
[01:09] <abelli> is mainly a sw problem :)
[01:09] <mpt> oh, man
[01:09] <jsgotangco> true
[01:09] <jsgotangco> but you know
[01:09] <abelli> mpt: what?
[01:09] <mpt> the memories, the memories
[01:09] <jsgotangco> i can buy stuff in taiwan like a cisco router clone
[01:10] <jsgotangco> same thing, different price
[01:10] <daven> just about to edit the RootSudo page to note that users are asked for THEIR password, not the root one they don't have.  any objections?
[01:10] <daven> is it ok just to go ahead and modify pages like that?  it feels awkward because someone else might be maintaining them!
[01:11] <abelli> jsgotangco: i love you
[01:11] <jsgotangco> daven if thepage is quite old feel free to edit it
[01:11] <jsgotangco> abelli doh save it for someone else
[01:11] <daven> edited 5 days ago
[01:11] <abelli> daven: no you should do it, i think.
[01:11] <daven> i've seen the question a few times on the channel - of course, putting it in the wiki might not help that ;)
[01:11] <abelli> jsgotangco: can we have a little exchange?
[01:11] <abelli> you come in italy i come in taiwan
[01:12] <abelli> daven: it's worth trying.
[01:12] <daven> abelli: hehe - you not interested in coming to the uk? ;)
[01:12] <jsgotangco> abelli i'd love to go to italy my aunt lives in rome she's a nun
[01:12] <abelli> itll be also nice noting that sudo something & does bring sudo in background .. so it won't be executed if the password hasnt been inserted in the last 5 mins.
[01:13] <abelli> daven: huh ... ive been there for every summer of my life since 3 yrs ago.
[01:13] <daven> abelli: fair enough :)  i must admit i've not been to italy yet
[01:13] <abelli> jsgotangco: come when you want ... but im a bit North
[01:13] <abelli> daven: england where?
[01:13] <daven> southampton
[01:13] <abelli> if it's near Staines ... ahhh
[01:14] <daven> lol - not a million miles from staines
[01:14] <jsgotangco> the 1st and last time i went to Italy I was 7 years old and went to the vatican
[01:14] <abelli> ahh ok, ok i just wanna kiss Ali G
[01:14] <daven> abelli: aye - dat is wicked, no?
[01:14] <abelli> mpt: mm where and when?
[01:15] <abelli> daven: i iz complitely mad for alig and da west side massive.
[01:15] <daven> also, i'm going to remove the "If you wish to do blah..." and replace with "To do blah..."
[01:15] <daven> just checking that i won't get anyone annoyed
[01:15] <mpt> abelli: For a "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10" section of the help
[01:16] <jsgotangco> daven fair enough we can see changes in the wiki anyway *the immediate ones though*
[01:16] <mpt> abelli: "If you've been using Ubuntu 5.04", "If you've been using Ubuntu 4.10", "If you've been using Microsoft Windows", "If you've been using Mac OS X"
[01:17] <abelli> about microsoft "if you have been wrong till now"
[01:17] <abelli> mmm sorry ... pappa time .. read you later
[01:17] <abelli> ciao buona vita.
[01:17] <mpt> Avoiding the word "using" would be a bonus
[01:17] <daven> does "Page Type" default to what it was before?
[01:17] <jsgotangco> ciao
[01:18] <jsgotangco> just make sure its Moin
[01:18] <daven> yes, it is.
[01:18] <daven> you could say "Migrating from Ubuntu 5.04"?
[01:18] <daven> migrating is a more complicated word, though
[01:19] <jsgotangco> whats the complete sentence btw
[01:19] <mpt> Those are the complete headings
[01:19] <mpt> These are links to be clicked on
[01:20] <daven> i think i would go for migrating
[01:20] <daven> if that's the kind of thing you mean
[01:20] <mpt> in the topic "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10"
[01:20] <mpt> Yes, but for Aunt Tillie, migrating is what birds do
[01:20] <daven> hmmm. maybe not so good then.
[01:20] <mpt> It's got exactly the right meaning, it's just at the wrong level
[01:20] <daven> yes
[01:20] <daven> i don't see the problem with saying "If you've been using", really
[01:21] <jsgotangco> me either
[01:21] <daven> it's better to be consistent
[01:21] <jsgotangco> its as simple as you can get imo
[01:21] <mpt> yeah
[01:21] <daven> or "Moving from"
[01:21] <mpt> heh!
[01:21] <mpt> I'd just tried "Moving from"
[01:21] <mpt> to see how it looked
[01:21] <daven> :)
[01:21] <mpt> Great minds think alike
[01:21] <daven> it's funny how long these things take - i can spend ages thinking about what words to use in a guide ;)
[01:22] <jsgotangco> daven its much worse when doing i18n
[01:22] <daven> yes, some of the guides i write get sent for translation :-s
[01:22] <Burgundavia> that is why using simpler words is better
[01:22] <Burgundavia> easy to understand and translate
[01:22] <Burgundavia> migrate vs move, etc.
[01:22] <mpt> "If you've been using" has the advantage over "Moving from" that it still works even if you're *still* using the other OS
[01:23] <daven> yes
[01:23] <daven> moving still isn't quite right
[01:23] <Burgundavia> "f you have come from"
[01:23] <daven> i come from england
[01:23] <daven> which section would i read?
[01:23] <daven> ;)
[01:23] <Burgundavia> used to <-- don't much like that
[01:25] <mpt> mmmm
[01:25] <mpt> Some people think e-mail isn't on the Internet
[01:25] <mpt> and neither is IM
[01:25] <jsgotangco> whats wrong about that
[01:25] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[01:26] <daven> it's tricky, picking the right level.
[01:26] <Burgundavia> some people think that the internet is that blue icon
[01:26] <jsgotangco> FF?
[01:26] <daven> how long does the sudo password persist for?
[01:26] <Burgundavia> daven, 15minutes by default
[01:26] <mpt> jsgotangco: No, the one without any orange in it :-)
[01:26] <Burgundavia> daven, before its asks again
[01:27] <daven> burgundavia: i'm not sure whether it's worth mentioning
[01:27] <Burgundavia> just for the record, gwget is a nice app
[01:27] <Burgundavia> daven, it is, in case they wonder why it didn't ask again
[01:27] <daven> burgundavia: i'll try and work it in
[01:27] <daven> burgundavia: but i didn't understand the bit about "bring sudo", and i couldn't find much in google, so i'll leave that stuff out ;)
[01:27] <Burgundavia> http://gnome.org/projects/gwget/download.html <-- can someone else try and download fireget.xpi
[01:28] <jsgotangco> mpt would it be more effective if we become more specific, ie, accessing net, using email, using im, etc.
[01:28] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I would agree with that
[01:29] <daven> burgundavia: funny characters
[01:29] <daven> burgundavia: i guess it's not sending the headers properly or something
[01:29] <Burgundavia> daven, is borked then
[01:29] <Burgundavia> daven, dammit, I wants it
[01:29] <daven> hehe
[01:29] <daven> "You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, you can use sudo for 15 minutes before you're prompted for the password again."
[01:30] <daven> any suggestions before i make my first change
[01:30] <mpt> jsgotangco: All except the first are subcategories of "Accessing the Internet" -- I've put them in one category so as to make room for "Changing the desktop picture and other settings" and "Getting more help" on the help front page
[01:30] <Burgundavia>  By default, you can use sudo stores your password for 15 minutes. After that time, you will be prompted for the password again.
[01:30] <Burgundavia> daven, ^
[01:30] <daven> good plan
[01:31] <Burgundavia> change the password to your password
[01:31] <daven> :)
[01:32] <Burgundavia> always put the doc as mentioning the user
[01:32] <daven> "
[01:32] <daven> You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before prompting you (for your password?) again."
[01:32] <daven> i'm inclined to go for less words i think
[01:32] <Burgundavia> You will be prompted for your password
[01:32] <Burgundavia> better
[01:33] <daven> sounds good
[01:33] <daven> You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before you will be prompted for your password again.
[01:33] <Burgundavia> You will be prompted for your password, which will be stored for 15 minutes. After that time, you will need to enter your password again.
[01:33] <daven> hehe
[01:33] <mpt> Ok, does anyone here actually have permissions to hack the Ubuntu help front page?
[01:33] <Burgundavia> mpt, it is in svn
[01:33] <mpt> (the one that appears in Yelp, I mean)
[01:33] <abelli> what about "if you come from..."
[01:33] <daven> burgundavia: i'll go with your version :)
[01:33] <Burgundavia> mpt, anybody with commit access can
[01:33] <mpt> Burgundavia: I'm not sure that really answers my question
[01:34] <mpt> Burgundavia: do you?
[01:34] <Burgundavia> mpt, What that means is that I could, until I lost my secret key
[01:34] <mpt> aha
[01:34] <mpt> as in, your GPG key?
[01:34] <mpt> yyyyyyeah, I should back up my key too
[01:34] <Burgundavia> luckily, I hadn't had it signed by anyone yet
[01:34] <jsgotangco> i can commit but....
[01:35] <Burgundavia> be bold jsgotangco
[01:35] <mpt> well, I was just thinking
[01:35] <mpt> A simple and silly improvement
[01:35] <mpt> would be to change that big heading that says "Help Topics" to "Ubuntu Help"
[01:36] <jsgotangco> well i think that's a standard GNOME help thing but can be changed
[01:36] <Burgundavia> works for me
[01:37] <daven> write - i'm off to the shops.  thanks for the help - i really don't want to tread on anyone's toes! :)
[01:38] <abelli> daven: big ups
[01:38] <abelli> daven: aiiiiiiii
[01:38] <daven> abelli: is you da fox? ;) [over and out]
[01:38] <abelli> jsgotangco: ok, so will u buy me an ultrasparcII 600 mhz for me ? :)
[01:39] <jsgotangco> what can a sparc 600mhz do for you i have no idea how those work anyway
[01:39] <abelli> daven: me and me julie is going to make you fil mazzively bad.
[01:39] <abelli> jsgotangco: i mean in taiwan :)
[01:39] <jsgotangco> well i am going to dinner first bbl
[01:39] <jsgotangco> abelli when i go there in august
[01:40] <abelli> jsgotangco: buon appetito :)
[01:47] <mpt> Does Ubuntu have any fax software installed by default?
[01:48] <Burgundavia> sane seems to be able to be a front end to one
[01:48] <Burgundavia> so no
[01:48] <Burgundavia> though ask on the devel list
[01:48] <Burgundavia> and if not, file a bug about it
[01:49] <mpt> ISTR a thread on ubuntu-devel about it recently
[01:49] <mpt> Like, maybe a week ago
[01:49] <Burgundavia> gwget needs a resume button
[01:52] <mpt> Silly English putting its verbs before its objects
[01:52] <mpt> So much harder to scan links that way
[01:53] <Burgundavia> check out efax
[01:53] <Burgundavia> most especially the help func
[02:01] <mpt> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline updated
[02:03] <Burgundavia> mpt, advanced topics? that is a weasel word
[02:04] <mpt> I know
[02:05] <Burgundavia> what is going to be behind it/
[02:05] <mpt> see the bottom of the page
[02:05] <Burgundavia> hmm, how about server setup
[02:06] <Burgundavia> those who know about man pages can find them themselves
[02:06] <Burgundavia> or info
[02:06] <Burgundavia> gnutella needs a better search
[02:07] <mpt> They may be able to find them themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't prefer reading them in a proportional anti-aliased font :-)
[02:07] <mpt> arg, it's late and I'm using too many negatives
[02:07] <Burgundavia> I read man in a terminal
[02:07] <Burgundavia> as I suspect do most
[02:07] <Burgundavia> and users should never ever see a man page
[02:08] <Burgundavia> I was about to help someone in #debian
[02:08] <mpt> msdn.microsoft.com uses Verdana
[02:08] <Burgundavia> and then I though f**k it
[02:08] <Burgundavia> Burgundavia is there a quick and easy guide to adding .desktop files to debian packages?
[02:08] <Burgundavia> aardvark bah. smelly ubuntu users.
[02:08] <Burgundavia> nice response, eh?
[02:08] <Burgundavia> and then
[02:08] <mpt> heh
[02:08] <Burgundavia> _rene_ Burgundavia: man cp? ;)
[02:09] <Burgundavia> _rene_ Burgundavia: get the sources, add it, rebuild
[02:09] <Burgundavia> and
[02:09] <mpt> haha
[02:09] <Burgundavia> jethro Burgundavia: I asked mh, not you, but you can read the package maintainer guide
[02:09] <Burgundavia> hmm
[02:09] <Burgundavia> ahh
[02:09] <Burgundavia> this is a change that should be so easy
[02:09] <Burgundavia> I know I am missing one little step
[02:09] <Burgundavia> but I get that response
[02:10] <Burgundavia> no wonder people use Ubuntu
[02:10] <Burgundavia> because most of the time, people get there questions answered
[02:10] <Burgundavia> and not derided
[02:10] <mpt> Jealousy will get them nowhere
[02:10] <mpt> Those aren't nearly the only Advanced topics, btw
[02:11] <mpt> there should be a "..." there
[02:11] <Burgundavia> yes
[02:11] <Burgundavia> I agree with the gnome move to get rid of advanced topics
[02:11] <mpt> Gnome has Advanced topics?
[02:11] <mpt> I didn't know
[02:12] <Burgundavia> meaning tabs or options under the label advanced topics
[02:12] <mpt> Oh, for sure
[02:12] <Burgundavia> hmm
[02:12] <Burgundavia> well #debian was a bust
[02:12] <mpt> in a GUI, it's often a copout
[02:12] <Burgundavia> guess I will try #ubuntu-motu next
[02:12] <mpt> I don't think it's a copout here
[02:13] <Burgundavia> nah, i think I will get help at #ubuntu-motu
[02:13] <mpt> It's the "here be admins and geeks" dept.
[02:13] <mpt> anyway, Gaim for Windows has nearly finished downloading and it's my bedtime
[02:13] <Burgundavia> alright, cya
[02:13] <abelli> mpt: for windows?
[02:13] <mpt> night
[02:13] <abelli> hmmmmm
[02:13] <mpt> Yes, abelli
[02:14] <abelli> do you have that virus?
 Ah, the joys of Win98
[02:14] <mpt> What virus?
[02:14] <abelli> im really sorry for you my friend.
[02:14] <mpt> Virus writers don't support Win98 any more
[02:14] <abelli> ms windows 98
[02:14] <mpt> It's tragic
[02:14] <Burgundavia> lol
[02:15] <abelli> no no the virus' name is MS Windows 98
[02:15] <mpt> We miss out on all the excitement
[02:15] <abelli> and it think its one of the few viruses that you must pay for
[02:15] <mpt> So, abelli, my parents are in a very curious situation where they pay for their virus but they get their antivirus definitions for free
[02:16] <abelli> mpt: why your parents have that virus?
[02:16] <abelli> i lately heard of something called ubuntu ...
[02:16] <abelli> dunno really what it is .. but .
[02:16] <abelli> i think its a nice thing.
[02:16] <mpt> abelli
[02:16] <mpt> dude
[02:16] <abelli> Burgundavia: heard anything ?
[02:16] <Burgundavia> abelli, regarding?
[02:17] <mpt> My mother complains if I so much as move an icon from one side of the screen to the other
[02:17] <abelli> that new thing called ubuntu.
[02:17] <Burgundavia> mpt, I have a father like that
[02:18] <Burgundavia> he spent an entire afternoon changing all the settings on an old machine
[02:18] <abelli> marthin luther king once said "ppl, dont conform, evolute, change"
[02:18] <Burgundavia> when all I had done was change the screen resolution to one size larger
[02:18] <mpt> evolute?
[02:18] <mpt> criminy
[02:18] <abelli> its an itanglish for evolve ... sorry
[02:19] <mpt> heh, English is a silly language
[02:19] <abelli> nature is quantistic ... IT too.
[02:19] <abelli> so we must proceed by steps.
[02:20] <abelli> now win98, tomorrow morning ubuntu hoary 5.04
[02:20] <mpt> right, really sleep time
[02:20] <mpt> honey
[02:20] <abelli> sweet dreams
[02:20] <mpt> mark should have called it Ubuntu Honey
[03:42] <jsgotangco> froud u there?
[03:42] <froud> yes
[03:42] <jsgotangco> i am looking at our wiki pages at the moment (all of 'em)
[03:42] <jsgotangco> what happened to the old members?
[03:43] <Burgundavia> some of them disappeared
[03:43] <froud> people come and go
[03:43] <froud> some talked lots and did nothing
[03:44] <froud> some said nothing and did nothing
[03:44] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:44] <froud> some made promises and did noting
[03:44] <jsgotangco> that bad huh
[03:44] <froud> yes
[03:45] <froud> some just came did on ethng to get their name in the authors list and were never seen again
[03:45] <jsgotangco> to be honest about this i really dont find any logical system here
[03:46] <froud> true
[03:46] <jsgotangco> (just looking at the wiki entries)
[03:46] <Burgundavia> froud, unfortunately, we can't due to license requirements
[03:46] <Burgundavia> if they edited it, we must list them
[03:46] <jsgotangco> the dual license thing?
[03:46] <Burgundavia> but we can list them as historical thanks
[03:47] <Burgundavia> both licenses require it
[03:47] <froud> sure
[03:47] <Burgundavia> though it is debatable if minor edits count for copyright and thus for attribution
[03:47] <froud> my thinking exactly
[03:48] <froud> anyone seen a free open source survey poll app around?
[03:49] <jsgotangco> im not so good at writing this kind of stuff, i was more trained into writing ISO compliant docs so I really dont know if i can finish up one thing that conforms as a help page
[03:49] <Burgundavia> froud, web-based?
[03:49] <froud> Burgundavia: ideally
[03:49] <Burgundavia> getting the new suse 9.3 live-dvd
[03:49] <Burgundavia> froud, can't be taht hard to do
[03:50] <Burgundavia> just forms and an email sending
[03:50] <abelli> froud: idealism?
[03:51] <froud> can be
[03:51] <froud> wonder about this
[03:51] <froud> http://prestopoll.sourceforge.net/
[03:53] <jsgotangco> hmm
[03:53] <abelli> froud: it's not python .
[03:54] <abelli> you're an heretic ... you're under trial by the Inquisizione
[03:54] <Burgundavia> icky
[03:54] <froud> whaaaaah hhhaaaah ah ha ha ha ah sob sob
[03:54] <Burgundavia> php and php5
[03:54] <Burgundavia> http://software.xkopex.com/gnome/gnome3.html
[03:54] <Burgundavia> I imagine this will go around the blogs for awhile
[03:55] <froud> he he
[03:55] <jsgotangco> tiled folders
[03:55] <jsgotangco> icckk
[03:56] <Burgundavia> http://www.student.livjm.ac.uk/cmsphend/gnome/scoop.html
[03:56] <Burgundavia> how about this?
[03:56] <Burgundavia> http://software.xkopex.com/nautilus/
[03:56] <Burgundavia> or that
[03:58] <Burgundavia> he has some good ideas
[03:59] <jsgotangco> i like that drop off zone
[03:59] <Burgundavia> the scoop idea?
[03:59] <Burgundavia> I like that as well
[03:59] <Burgundavia> a sort of meta-side panel
[04:00] <jsgotangco> yes scoop does look it might work
[04:00] <jsgotangco> but it'll eat real estate space for some low rez users
[04:01] <Burgundavia> by the time that is more than vapourware, the average desktop will be 1280x1024
[04:02] <jsgotangco> thats true although ive tried hoary/kubuntu on a new PC with a prescott mobo and shared intel extreme video and it can only do 640x480 as default
[04:03] <Burgundavia> horrible
[04:03] <Burgundavia> my lcd is native at 1280
[04:03] <jsgotangco> i dont think his nautilus idea will be so hot, it looks intimidating to some
[04:03] <Burgundavia> I can't stand anything smaller
[04:04] <Burgundavia> like a lot of UI ideas, they are total absolute crack
[04:12] <jsgotangco> why is it they are making a big deal on the bitkeeper issue
[04:12] <jsgotangco> jeez
[04:12] <Burgundavia> the bitkeeper is big
linus was stupid to use it in the 1st place, and he was stupid to try and support mcvoy over tridge</rant>
[04:14] <jsgotangco> he was being practical (i believe)
[04:14] <jsgotangco> no make that productive
[04:14] <Burgundavia> the issue, is that no FLOSS app got the same amout of development
[04:14] <Burgundavia> at least with OSS there would be something to show for it
[04:15] <Burgundavia> now he is even worse than before
[04:15] <Burgundavia> worse shape
[04:15] <jsgotangco> true
[04:15] <Burgundavia> I think this whole lesson has been very good for the FLOSS community
[04:15] <Burgundavia> it truly shows why never to depend on an non-free piece of software
[04:19] <jsgotangco> 'Minority Report' interface created for US military
[04:19] <jsgotangco> tee hee
[04:39] <jsgotangco> later sleep time
[04:39] <jsgotangco> nite
[06:47] <Burgundavia> I wrote an mpt style doc for suse 9.3. Now I jsut need a webblog to put it on
[07:19] <froud> copy cat
[07:19] <Burgundavia> somebodies got to do it
[07:20] <Burgundavia> already critiqued linspire 5.0 live
[07:20] <froud> So you are becoming a critique these days
[07:20] <Burgundavia> hey!
[07:21] <froud> somebody has to do it
[07:21] <froud> may as well be you
[07:21] <Burgundavia> are you saying I do it well and don't produce much else?
[07:22] <froud> :-) if the hat fits ..
[07:22] <froud> teasing you, you plonker
[07:22] <froud> you know I love you
[07:22] <Burgundavia> i know
[07:23] <froud> ok you have a svn wc
[07:23] <Burgundavia> I currently have no commit access
[07:24] <jeffsch> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
[07:24] <froud> by you have a wc
[07:24] <froud> hi jeff
[07:24] <jeffsch> morning
[07:24] <Burgundavia> wc?
[07:24] <froud> working copy
[07:25] <froud> if you do svn up and see the stuff in teamstuff/
[07:25] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:25] <froud> jeffsch: you too mate
[07:25] <froud> mdke: ping
[07:26] <froud> daven: ping
[07:26] <froud> guys svn up and checkout the stuff in teamstuff/
[07:27] <froud> based on my templates I have prepared some of the stuff we discussed earlier today
[07:28] <Burgundavia> arghh, no commit access. I am going to commit myself!!!
[07:28] <froud> patches dude, patches
[07:28] <jeffsch> i like the content spec and info plan
[07:29] <froud> there is an order to the docs
[07:29] <froud> 1. audience
[07:29] <froud> 2. environment
[07:29] <froud> 3. ino plan
[07:29] <froud> info
[07:29] <froud> 4. spec
[07:30] <froud> each doc gets a spec
[07:30] <froud> info plan covers all
[07:30] <froud> data from 1, 2 used to produce 3, 4
[07:31] <Burgundavia> cool
[07:31] <froud> sometimes 3 can be done first
[07:31] <froud> and reval after 1, 2
[07:32] <froud> So now I need input.
[07:32] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:32] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:32] <froud> silence will be considered as consent
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I will sick it on my parents, ex, and brother
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I like the idea
[07:33] <froud> good
[07:33] <Burgundavia> I think the questions need tweaking
[07:33] <jeffsch> in our case, how to get enough responses to audience and enviro surveys to make the data valid?
[07:33] <froud> you will find that I dont just talk I actually do
[07:33] <Burgundavia> advertise on the ubuntu website
[07:33] <froud> email, web forms, or poll
[07:34] <froud> jeffsch: you know any good poll apps
[07:34] <jeffsch> hmmm... i used to. I had to build a survey app a while ago and did some research into it
[07:37] <Burgundavia> http://www.unt.edu/benchmarks/archives/2004/december04/rss.htm
[07:37] <Burgundavia> google gives you wonders
[07:38] <Burgundavia> qsurvery
[07:38] <Burgundavia> even links into zope
[07:38] <jeffsch> http://gathering.itm.mh.se/modsurvey/overview.php
[07:38] <froud> and where to get a server running zope
[07:38] <Burgundavia> froud, we already have one
[07:38] <froud> we do
[07:39] <Burgundavia> www.ubuntu.com
[07:39] <froud> Hmmm, yeah you are right
[07:39] <Burgundavia> there is no reason that this couldn't be left up permanently
[07:40] <Burgundavia> and just announce it after each release
[07:40] <froud> sure
[07:40] <froud> now where can I find an interface on that server do do this
[07:41] <Burgundavia> need to talk a dev into uploading it
[07:43] <froud> Hmmm yeah
[07:46] <froud> file format?
[07:46] <Burgundavia> for?
[07:46] <froud> QSurvey
[07:47] <froud> I dont have any multiple shoice questions
[07:47] <froud> only text box responses
[07:47] <froud> and no forks and pipes
[07:47] <Burgundavia> it has textbox
[07:48] <froud> yeah but does somebody have to sit there an create each question. Is there a single file format
[07:48] <froud> a dtd, xsd
[07:48] <jeffsch> Survey v3.0.0 DTD
[07:48] <froud> link
[07:49] <jeffsch> http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Survey+v3.0.0+DTD&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[07:49] <jeffsch> that's all i got for now...
[07:49] <froud> does it work undr zope?
[07:50] <froud> this seems like apache mod
[07:50] <froud> Hmmm.
[07:50] <froud> that is cool
[07:50] <froud> both the zope path and the mod path can work
[07:50] <froud> I wonder which is faster?
[07:52] <jeffsch> http://vtsurvey.sourceforge.net/
[07:52] <jeffsch> also understand Servey DTD, but is java
[07:53] <froud> Survey XML is an XML DTD where is the java
[07:54] <froud> oooh java i c nice
[07:54] <froud> yummy
[07:55] <froud> Oh I can live with this
[07:55] <froud> <SURVEY TITLE="TEXT">
[07:55] <froud>   <TEXT NAME="te1" CAPTION="Plain text" />
[07:55] <froud>   <TEXT NAME="te2" MAXLEN="2" CAPTION="Numerical text" MUSTANSWER="yes" NUMERICAL="yes" MAXVAL="99" MINVAL="0" ILLEGALVAL="-2" />

[07:56] <froud> we can hack it in XML against the DTD is SVN
[07:56] <froud> wehn we are ready then we can bother people
[07:57] <froud> easy syntax http://gathering.itm.mh.se/mod_survey/docs/mod_survey_syntax_reference.pdf
[08:14] <jeffsch> ok see you guys later. I must go.
[08:16] <froud> nice mod survey docs are docbook
[08:17] <froud> pity the programmers guide is empty an dthe sysadmin
[08:17] <Burgundavia> when where the latest updates of these various things?
[08:18] <Burgundavia> qsurvey, it looks like 2 years
[08:18] <froud> 3.2.2 (released 2005-01-19).
[08:18] <Burgundavia> for mod?
[08:18] <froud> mod survey
[08:18] <froud> yes
[08:18] <froud> apache module
[08:18] <Burgundavia> seems more stable and reliable
[08:18] <froud> driven from xml file
[08:19] <froud> also easy for us to develop on
[08:19] <froud> easy deploy
[08:19] <froud> just need apache
[08:19] <froud> USE="apache2" ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge mod_survey
[08:37] <froud> found a web based editor for it too
[08:37] <froud> http://ilse.eveca.de/screenShots.html
[08:42] <froud> Burgundavia: my surveys are normally completed by me. I ahve modified the ones in svn but I wonder if users will actually take the time to type a para on a question
[08:42] <froud> I think we should try use as many mulitiple choice options as possible
[08:45] <froud> 'ello abelli
[08:46] <abelli> froud: glad to see youre here.
[08:56] <froud> Burgundavia: mod survey has a nice dtd
[08:57] <Burgundavia> always makes life easy if it fits in with existing sutf
[08:58] <froud> yeah I am installing on my local and will test it. It is not all documented, so perhaps I can contribute back in that way
[08:59] <froud> Burgundavia: on the subject of polls, which OS are you?
[08:59] <froud> http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/os_quiz.php
[08:59] <Burgundavia> depends on state and mood
[08:59] <Burgundavia> let me tell you know
[08:59] <Burgundavia> now
[09:02] <Burgundavia> os/2 warp
[09:53] <froud> Burgundavia: you running Apache 2 on SuSE 9.2
[09:58] <Burgundavia> I have never run suse
[09:58] <froud> OK
[09:58] <Burgundavia> and only played with apache
[09:58] <froud> I just wiped out my mod_status
[09:59] <froud> lemme see if I can retrieve it form the rpm
[10:02] <froud> ah suse you got alove it
[10:28] <daven> apparently I'm Amiga OS...
[10:29] <Burgundavia> froud, what are you?
[10:29] <froud> Debs
[10:29] <daven> froud: gah! you rigged your answers ;)
[10:29] <daven> froud: how come i ended up as amiga os!
[10:31] <daven> i haven't downloaded the information as yet.  i'm currently a long way from even understand where to get svn from.  i'll have to look into it another day, because i'm off to bed now.  however, the "4-step plan" sounds like it would make for clearly defined docs
[10:32] <froud> perhaps tomorrow I will help you with svn
[10:32] <daven> actually, i expect the answers to most of my questions will be in the "getting started with the documentation" guide :)
[10:32] <froud> yep
[10:33] <froud> and Sep by Step Guides
[10:33] <daven> yup :) i really do need to have a good read.  i'm just being careful not to commit myself to this before i know i can, if you see what i mean.  i don't like to say i'm going to help with something and then not do it.
[10:33] <daven> right.  ttfn.
[10:34] <froud> sure
[10:35] <froud> I am of to bed too. Burgundavia the mod_survey is great.
[10:35] <froud> c ya
[10:36] <Burgundavia> cool
[10:36] <Burgundavia> have to play myself
[10:53] <mdke> what's going down


[00:28] <vorlon> lvoytek: do you happen to have plans for merging bind9 9.18.13 soon for mantic?  (bind-dyndb-ldap in -proposed is waiting for it)
[01:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-pipewire-sys [amd64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [0.6.0-2] (no packageset)
[01:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-pipewire-sys [armhf] (mantic-proposed/universe) [0.6.0-2] (no packageset)
[01:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-pipewire-sys [s390x] (mantic-proposed/universe) [0.6.0-2] (no packageset)
[01:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-pipewire-sys [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed/universe) [0.6.0-2] (no packageset)
[01:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-libspa-sys [riscv64] (mantic-proposed) [0.6.0-2]
[01:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-pipewire-sys [armhf] (mantic-proposed) [0.6.0-2]
[01:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-pipewire-sys [s390x] (mantic-proposed) [0.6.0-2]
[01:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-pipewire-sys [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [0.6.0-2]
[01:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-pipewire-sys [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed) [0.6.0-2]
[01:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-pipewire-sys [arm64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [0.6.0-2] (no packageset)
[04:16] <doko> vorlon: we just can remove python3.10 again, just wanted to have it on snapshot.debian.org
[05:05] <vorlon> doko: ah ok
[05:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: tfk8s [amd64] (mantic-proposed/none) [0.1.10-1] (no packageset)
[05:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: tfk8s [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed/none) [0.1.10-1] (no packageset)
[05:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-pipewire-sys [arm64] (mantic-proposed) [0.6.0-2]
[05:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted tfk8s [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed) [0.1.10-1]
[05:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted tfk8s [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [0.1.10-1]
[05:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rocrand [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [5.3.3-5ubuntu1]
[05:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-diesel [riscv64] (mantic-proposed) [2.0.3-1ubuntu1]
[05:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rocrand [arm64] (mantic-proposed) [5.3.3-5ubuntu1]
[05:39] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: cppad [amd64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3] (no packageset)
[05:46] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: cppad [riscv64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3] (no packageset)
[05:54] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: cppad [arm64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3] (no packageset)
[05:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: cppad [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3] (no packageset)
[06:02] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: cppad [s390x] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3] (no packageset)
[06:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: cppad [armhf] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3] (no packageset)
[07:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted cppad [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3]
[07:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted cppad [armhf] (mantic-proposed) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3]
[07:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted cppad [riscv64] (mantic-proposed) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3]
[07:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted cppad [arm64] (mantic-proposed) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3]
[07:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted cppad [s390x] (mantic-proposed) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3]
[07:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted cppad [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed) [2<IP_ADDRESS>-3]
[07:12] <vorlon> xnox, apw: well, there's an nvidia-open-gpu-kernel-modules synced from Debian that's stuck in -proposed due to wrong build-dependencies.  Do I want to fix this or remove it?
[07:19] <tjaalton> I'd say remove
[08:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gstreamer-editing-services1.0 (jammy-proposed/universe) [1.20.1-2 => 1.20.3-0ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[08:43] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: oauth2token [amd64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [0.0.3-1] (no packageset)
[08:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: gromacs [s390x] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2023.1-2ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[08:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: gromacs [amd64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2023.1-2ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[08:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: gromacs [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2023.1-2ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[09:32] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: gromacs [arm64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2023.1-2ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[11:47] <tjaalton> ahasenack: hi, right.. it was just confusing, so I invalidated the lunar task, but it will get the same string fix via 23.0.4 backport
[11:54] <ahasenack> noted, but I can't release it today
[11:54] <ahasenack> should be fine on monday
[11:55] <tjaalton> sure
[12:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rocsparse [amd64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [5.3.0+dfsg-6] (no packageset)
[14:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gnome-remote-desktop (lunar-proposed/main) [44.0-1 => 44.2-0ubuntu1] (ubuntu-desktop)
[14:10] <lvoytek> vorlon: I was hoping Debian would release 9.18.15 to unstable soon since they have the code ready. I'll go ahead and get a merge going today though to get bind-dyndb-ldap through then get it synced up later
[14:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: libwpe (jammy-updates/universe) [1.12.0-1 => 1.12.0-1] (i386-whitelist) (sync)
[14:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libwpe [sync] (jammy-updates) [1.12.0-1]
[14:46] <vorlon> lvoytek: cheers
[14:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: unifdef (jammy-updates/universe) [2.10-1.1 => 2.10-1.1] (i386-whitelist) (sync)
[14:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected unifdef [sync] (jammy-updates) [2.10-1.1]
[14:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: unifdef (jammy-updates/universe) [2.10-1.1 => 2.10-1.1] (i386-whitelist) (sync)
[14:59] <vorlon> seb128: ^^ rejected?
[15:06] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected unifdef [sync] (jammy-updates) [2.10-1.1]
[15:07] <seb128> vorlon, launchpad emails states 'unifdef 2.10-1.1 in jammy (binaries conflicting with the existing ones)'
[15:07] <seb128> vorlon, I did
[15:07] <seb128> $ ./copy-package -b -s jammy --to-suite jammy-updates -e 2.10-1.1  unifdef
[15:08] <seb128> is that the wrong incantation?
[15:09] <vorlon> seb128: possibly an issue because the binaries were built across two different series.  I'll try a couple workarounds and let you know if it works, and if not we need to do a build1
[15:10] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Packageset: Added unifdef to i386-whitelist in jammy
[15:10] <seb128> vorlon, thanks
[15:10] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: unifdef (jammy-updates/universe) [2.10-1.1 => 2.10-1.1] (i386-whitelist) (sync)
[15:11] <vorlon> seb128: ^^ copy from -s focal (the release the riscv64 binary built in) worked
[15:11] <coreycb_> hello sru team, if anyone gets a chance we could use a review for LP:#1996229
[15:11] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Launchpad bug 1996229 in python-magnumclient (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] magnum ui can not delete the coe cluster" [High, Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1996229
[15:11] <seb128> vorlon, how do you know? my copy also ended up in the queue, the rejection was when I accepted the upload out of the queue (which you didn't do yet?)
[15:12] <vorlon> seb128: oh
[15:12] <vorlon> yes you're right, let's see
[15:12] <vorlon> ok yes it was rejected
[15:12] <vorlon> seb128: I think this needs to be a build1 then
[15:12] <seb128> vorlon, k, I will do that, thanks
[15:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: gromacs [riscv64] (mantic-proposed/universe) [2023.1-2ubuntu1] (no packageset)
[15:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gromacs [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [2023.1-2ubuntu1]
[15:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gromacs [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed) [2023.1-2ubuntu1]
[15:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gromacs [arm64] (mantic-proposed) [2023.1-2ubuntu1]
[15:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gromacs [s390x] (mantic-proposed) [2023.1-2ubuntu1]
[15:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gromacs [riscv64] (mantic-proposed) [2023.1-2ubuntu1]
[15:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted oauth2token [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [0.0.3-1]
[15:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rocsparse [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [5.3.0+dfsg-6]
[15:38] <seb128> unifdef rebuild uploaded, unsure if that should go through the SRU team or isn't required?
[15:39] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: unifdef (jammy-proposed/universe) [2.10-1.1 => 2.10-1.1build0.1] (i386-whitelist)
[15:41] <vorlon> seb128: tada, it's gone through the SRU team
[15:42] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted unifdef [source] (jammy-proposed) [2.10-1.1build0.1]
[15:48] <vorlon> seb128: (but not the SRU process; if you see that it's built before I do, let me know and I'll copy it straight to -updates)
[15:59] <Trevinho> vorlon: hey, if you've time in your SRU slot please check that yaru change as you should be faimilar with it already. also gjs is an interesting one
[15:59] <vorlon> Trevinho: absolutely
[16:00] <Trevinho> thanks!
[16:21] <vorlon> #   Copyright 2006, Bryce Harrington<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:21] <vorlon> suss
[16:23] <vorlon> ("why is this stack of perl modules being pulled into desktop-minimal? oh, because xdg-utils recommends it libnet-dbus-perl.  Hmm do we really need this?  What's xdg-screensaver...")
[16:23] <bryceh> hah
[16:24] <bryceh> that's a blast from the past.
[16:26] <vorlon> I wonder if we should drop the direct seeding of xdg-utils.  it wouldn't drop it from the images tho, it has reverse-depends/reverse-recommends
[16:27] <vorlon> anyway, moral of the story, don't put me in charge of an MIR because I'll yak shave
[16:29] <bryceh> vorlon, iirc xdg-* itself is all bash, but they serve as wrappers to various underlying tools as kind of a universal adapter.
[16:29] <bryceh> so it's possible one of the scripts is pulling in some sub-component piece for adaptation purposes, and so may be resolvable by just patching that sub-part out
[16:30] <bryceh> but it's been years and years since I even looked at any of that code so YMMV :-)
[16:30] <bryceh> man I'm old
[16:31] <vorlon> yeah it's not worth investing a whole lot of effort for minimal dependency/size savings, it's just funny that doing dbus in perl pulls in libwww-perl
[16:31] <bryceh> perl's gonna perl
[16:36] <bryceh> vorlon, btw speaking of perl -- followup status on the spamassassin 4 component mismatch you asked christian about the other day.  I've researched a bit about the various perl modules involved (it is indeed quite a list) and looked for pruning opportunities.  I've written up a prelim MIR at LP: #2023971, but need to figure out what to put for the Security and Quality Assurance headings in the paperwork.
[16:36] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Launchpad bug 2023971 in libmail-dmarc-perl (Ubuntu) "[MIR] libmail-dmarc-perl" [Undecided, Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2023971
[16:37] <bryceh> but other than that, I'm not sure if there's anything else to do prior to submitting it.  If you have any further advice/tips/requests lemme know.
[16:37] <vorlon> bryceh: no advice, sorry :)
[16:40] <vorlon> LocutusOfBorg: soooo llvm-toolchain-15 ftbfs on ppc64el now after an unrelated change... https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/llvm-toolchain-15/1:15.0.7-4ubuntu2/+build/26311880
[16:40] <vorlon> (and it's reproducible)
[16:42] <vorlon> also apparently my change didn't fix things, boo
[16:52] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gnome-remote-desktop (jammy-proposed/main) [42.7-0ubuntu1 => 42.8-0ubuntu1] (ubuntu-desktop)
[17:08] <dbungert> oh I skipped a few versions of livecd-rootfs
[17:09] <dbungert> 849->890
[17:11] <dbungert> ubuntu-archive: should I attempt to fix the above version skip or should we skip 50 versions?
[17:12] <vorlon> dbungert: fixing it would be a footgun for whoever is following up 2.889.  I would leave it as-is
[17:12] <vorlon> (you didn't use dch -U?)
[17:12] <dbungert> I used dch but "fixed" the version manually
[17:13] <dbungert> good note on dch -U, thank you
[17:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: stdgpu [amd64] (mantic-proposed/none) [1.3.0+git20220507.32e0517-2] (no packageset)
[17:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted stdgpu [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [1.3.0+git20220507.32e0517-2]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libinput [source] (lunar-proposed) [1.22.1-1ubuntu0.1]
[17:52] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libinput [source] (jammy-proposed) [1.20.0-1ubuntu0.3]
[20:07] <vorlon> LocutusOfBorg: and after an unrelated change now it ftbfs on all arches <tableflip> https://launchpad.net/~vorlon/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+build/26313388
[20:25] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected opencryptoki [source] (lunar-proposed) [3.20.0+dfsg-0ubuntu1.1]
[20:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected libppd [source] (lunar-proposed) [2:2.0~rc1-0ubuntu1.2]
[20:36] <vorlon> Trevinho: libadwaita-1 in lunar-proposed looks good, but LP: #2013126 needs a test case (this isn't part of the upstream release but a change to debian/patches)
[20:36] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Launchpad bug 2013126 in libadwaita-1 (Ubuntu Lunar) "file chooser dialog doesn't respect system theme" [High, Fix Committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2013126
[20:36] <Trevinho> vorlon: oh, right... I thought it was already defined, let me format the bug
[20:41] <Trevinho> vorlon: done
[20:54] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted evince [source] (lunar-proposed) [44.1-1ubuntu0.1]
[20:57] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted apparmor [source] (jammy-proposed) [3.0.4-2ubuntu2.3]
[21:02] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gnome-remote-desktop (jammy-proposed/main) [42.7-0ubuntu1 => 42.8-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (ubuntu-desktop)
[21:04] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected evince [source] (jammy-proposed) [42.3-0ubuntu3.1]
[21:15] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected gnome-video-effects [source] (lunar-proposed) [0.5.0-1ubuntu2]
[21:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected hplip [source] (lunar-proposed) [3.22.10+dfsg0-1ubuntu1]
[21:34] <vorlon> lvoytek: I've recently been reprimanded myself for not using dpkg-buildpackage -v for SRUs that need to be landed on top of other SRUs still in -proposed; I'm going to reupload mysql-8.0 to also point at LP: #180466, so it's clear to other SRU team members this is an SRU that should be released and not just an autopkgtest-fixing upload that should be staged in -proposed
[21:34] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Launchpad bug 180466 in Feisty Backports "Latest clamav backport (0.91.2-3ubuntu2.1~feisty1) stuck in dependency wait" [High, Fix Released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/180466
[21:34] <vorlon> lvoytek: lvoytek: make that LP: #1980466, we probably don't need to reference a feisty backports bug
[21:34] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Launchpad bug 1980466 in mysql-8.0 (Ubuntu Lunar) "mysql_secure_installation can not set root password and ends up with loop" [Undecided, Fix Committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1980466
[21:37] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected mysql-8.0 [source] (lunar-proposed) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[21:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: mysql-8.0 (lunar-proposed/main) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (core, i386-whitelist, ubuntu-server)
[21:38] <vorlon> rs2009: ubuntu-unity daily images are over their indicated size limit.  Do you plan to do some work to shrink them again, or should the limit be raised for mantic?
[21:43] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted gjs [source] (lunar-proposed) [1.76.2-1~ubuntu23.04.1]
[21:56] <jbicha> vorlon: I replied to bug 2023675 if you're still handling SRUs today
[21:56] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Bug 2023675 in gnome-video-effects (Ubuntu) "flip effect doesn't work on  GStreamer 1.22" [Undecided, Fix Released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2023675
[21:57] <vorlon> jbicha: the comment about tradeoffs of risk/reward under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Staging_low_priority_uploads is also relevant here
[21:58] <jbicha> yes, I think that if we're going to include the Cheese app by default, the Flip feature is expected to work
[21:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: hplip (lunar-proposed/main) [3.22.10+dfsg0-1 => 3.22.10+dfsg0-1ubuntu1] (desktop-core, ubuntu-server)
[21:59] <jbicha> (I am planning to propose that we not include Cheese by default for Desktop 23.10)
[22:03] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected gjs [source] (jammy-proposed) [1.72.4-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:04] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: gjs (jammy-proposed/main) [1.72.2-0ubuntu2 => 1.72.4-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (desktop-core, desktop-extra, i386-whitelist, mozilla)
[22:07] <vorlon> jbicha: I'll give this some more thought; for the moment I'm processing other SRUs
[22:07] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted mesa [source] (lunar-proposed) [23.0.4-0ubuntu1~23.04.1]
[22:09] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted gnome-remote-desktop [source] (lunar-proposed) [44.2-0ubuntu1]
[22:10] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected gnome-remote-desktop [source] (jammy-proposed) [42.8-0ubuntu1]
[22:11] <vorlon> jbicha, Trevinho: gnome-remote-desktop in jammy-proposed seems to incorrectly reuse the already-closed SRU bug #1998966
[22:11] -ubottu:#ubuntu-release- Bug 1998966 in gnome-remote-desktop (Ubuntu Jammy) "Update gnome-remote-desktop to 42.7" [High, Fix Released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1998966
[22:13] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted mysql-8.0 [source] (lunar-proposed) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:13] <jbicha> vorlon: I believe Trevinho wants to make another change to the gnome-remote-desktop jammy SRU
[22:13] <vorlon> ok
[22:16] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected mysql-8.0 [source] (kinetic-proposed) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: mysql-8.0 (kinetic-proposed/main) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (core, i386-whitelist, ubuntu-server)
[22:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected mysql-8.0 [source] (jammy-proposed) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted mysql-8.0 [source] (kinetic-proposed) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:25] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: rejected mysql-8.0 [source] (focal-proposed) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: mysql-8.0 (jammy-proposed/main) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (core, i386-whitelist, ubuntu-server)
[22:29] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: mysql-8.0 (focal-proposed/main) [8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 8.0.33-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (i386-whitelist, ubuntu-server)
[22:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted hplip [source] (lunar-proposed) [3.22.10+dfsg0-1ubuntu1]
[22:33] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libadwaita-1 [source] (lunar-proposed) [1.3.3-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[22:41] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted python-debian [source] (kinetic-proposed) [0.1.46ubuntu1]
[22:42] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted python-debian [source] (jammy-proposed) [0.1.43ubuntu1.1]
[22:43] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted python-debian [source] (focal-proposed) [0.1.36ubuntu1.1]
[22:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libxmlb [source] (kinetic-proposed) [0.3.8-1ubuntu0.1]
[22:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libxmlb [source] (jammy-proposed) [0.3.6-2ubuntu0.1]
[22:52] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted libxmlb [source] (focal-proposed) [0.3.6-2ubuntu0.1~20.04.1]
[23:07] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted distro-info [source] (jammy-proposed) [1.1ubuntu0.1]
[23:20] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: plume-hashmap-util-java [amd64] (mantic-proposed/none) [0.0.1+ds-1] (no packageset)
[23:20] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-bitflags-1 [amd64] (mantic-proposed/none) [1.3.2-5] (no packageset)
[23:20] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: plume-reflection-util-java [amd64] (mantic-proposed/none) [0.2.2+ds-1] (no packageset)
[23:21] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-bitflags-1 [arm64] (mantic-proposed/none) [1.3.2-5] (no packageset)
[23:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-bitflags-1 [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed/none) [1.3.2-5] (no packageset)
[23:24] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: rust-bitflags-1 [armhf] (mantic-proposed/none) [1.3.2-5] (no packageset)
[23:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted plume-reflection-util-java [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [0.2.2+ds-1]
[23:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-bitflags-1 [arm64] (mantic-proposed) [1.3.2-5]
[23:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-bitflags-1 [ppc64el] (mantic-proposed) [1.3.2-5]
[23:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-bitflags-1 [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [1.3.2-5]
[23:26] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted rust-bitflags-1 [armhf] (mantic-proposed) [1.3.2-5]
[23:27] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted plume-hashmap-util-java [amd64] (mantic-proposed) [0.0.1+ds-1]
[23:43] <vorlon> Trevinho: it's not worth blocking the SRU over, but fwiw I don't see anywhere that gnome-shell/src/gnome-shell-sass/widgets/_calendar.scss maps to a linked bug
[23:45] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted yaru-theme [source] (jammy-proposed) [22.04.5]
[23:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted jool [source] (jammy-proposed) [4.1.7-1ubuntu1]


[02:15] <cjwatson> ScottK: kdenlive/armel removed (belatedly)
[02:16] <ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
[02:16] <cjwatson> (along with binaries from ktoon and qmmp)
[02:16] <cjwatson> probably some others to do when I'm more awake
[07:08] <tumbleweed> grr, more botched dh_python2 transitions. I've posted an announcement on the subject, if someone can moderate it
[07:12] <pitti> tumbleweed: "FFe for build-system changes"? moderated
[07:13] <tumbleweed> thanks
[12:41] <ogra_> slangasek, i'm looking at cdimage code, to add my preinstalled tar.gz and .bootimg files to make-web-indicies, i see you added tar.gz handling, but name the files "UEC/EC2 tarball" ... i would like to make the first part conditional, but there doesnt seem to be any other UEC related code in our tree
[12:43] <ogra_> ... so i wonder if that code bit is actually used at all on our side, seems the server team has a forked tree of cdimage for the cloud stuff anyway
[12:47] <cjwatson> we do release publication of cloud images and make-web-indices needs to support that
[12:47] <cjwatson> so yes, it is used
[12:48] <cjwatson> hm, that said I can't actually find a real case of that, maybe I'm confused
[12:49] <cjwatson> still, seeing as I don't know exactly how they're using that, I'd prefer if it were conditional.  Perhaps you could talk with smoser?
[12:49] <ogra_> just doing that, they seem to have a totally separate tree for everything
[12:53] <smoser> "totally separate" = "old"
[12:53] <smoser> it was branched ~ 9.10 release time, and never merged.
[12:53] <smoser> i'm willing to do a merge, but i need an upstream source
[13:06] <cjwatson> doko: I'm inclined to remove wvstreams and its (small) reverse build-dep tree on armel, unless you object - see http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=521473
[13:07] <cjwatson> basically takes out wvdial, pathfinder, gnome-ppp
[13:07] <doko> cjwatson, I'm fine with it
[13:11] <cjwatson> done
[14:06] <charlie-tca> Can someone please check what is happening to the ubuntustudio images. There have been no images for several days now, only errors showing are:
[14:07] <charlie-tca> W: Failed to fetch file:/srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/ftp-universe/dists/oneiric/main/binary-amd64/Packages.bz2  Hash Sum mismatch
[14:07] <charlie-tca> E: Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
[14:07] <charlie-tca> make: *** [apt-update] Error 100
[14:07] <charlie-tca> many times in the logs
[14:12] <cjwatson> as explained many times before the only thing I can do is retry them (which I've now done)
[14:12] <charlie-tca> Thank you for looking, at least!
[14:13] <charlie-tca> I know there is little you can do with that, but at least you know to keep trying it.
[14:13] <cjwatson> hmm, one possible problem does come to mind.  I wonder how to fix it ...
[14:17] <cjwatson> (if a main-only image is building at the same time, then build-image-set will wait for it to sync without arranging for the universe part of the mirror to catch up)
[14:18] <charlie-tca> Then it has to be started again, right?
[14:18] <cjwatson> I mean, a crude fix is trivial, but I don't want to disable the ability to have parallel builds in general
[14:18] <cjwatson> right, but it can't sync the main part of the mirror because there's an image building at the same time, and if it syncs only the universe part then the same thing might happen but in the other direction
[14:19] <cjwatson> (i.e. universe newer than main)
[14:21] <cjwatson> I guess I need to do something like ensuring that the build already in progress has synced a superset of the archive required by the build that's trying to start, or else something completely disjoint (e.g. ports)
[14:21] <charlie-tca> So, simple terms, if it doesn't build, someone should notify in this channel, to have another build started for it?
[14:21] <cjwatson> but that sounds really fiddly.  I'm just going to shuffle the cron job times around to try to reduce the incidence of this
[14:21] <cjwatson> yes
[14:21] <charlie-tca> Thank you.
[14:53] <cjwatson> general reminder: *please* use the kernel-overrides script to process new kernel uploads through the NEW queue.  I just found that almost the entire set of linux binaries in lucid-proposed was in universe
[14:54] <cjwatson> it really doesn't take long at all (much quicker than it used to be) and it avoids mistakes
[15:01] <cjwatson> charlie-tca: I've moved the ubuntustudio build 12 hours later (or earlier :-) ) to hopefully avoid this
[15:06] <charlie-tca> Thank you. Let's see what it does
[17:11] <stgraber> skaet: I just turned the current ltsp-live bug that's critical to Edubuntu into a FFe as the "fix" is a full rewrite. Would be great if you could +1 :) bug 791611
[17:11] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 791611 in ltsp (Ubuntu) "[FFe] LTSP live doesn't work with new Network Manager (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791611
[17:12]  * skaet looking
[17:12] <stgraber> I'm currently busy testing everything else works for Edubuntu, then will test the new code in the live environment and push the new edubuntu-live with the new version
[17:14] <stgraber> (My goal is to have Edubuntu feature complete and fully tested by UI freeze so I don't have to touch it till release (and can focus on Ubuntu) :))
[17:17] <skaet> stgraber,  sounds reasonable.   I've +1'd the change as long as it is in by UI/beta freeze.
[17:18] <stgraber> skaet: thanks
[18:10] <cjwatson> could somebody review my debian-installer uploads to lucid-proposed and maverick-proposed?  the kernel team are waiting on that for some SRU verification work
[19:15] <doko> seb128, any chance to get the colord issue resolved before beta freeze?
[19:15] <seb128> doko, dunno, ask kees he's the one blocking it
[19:15] <seb128> RAOF said he will have a version running as its own user tomorrow
[19:16] <seb128> but I'm not sure if kees had other blocking issues still after that
[19:23] <kees> if it's running as non-root, I'm fine with it.
[19:37] <seb128> kees, thanks
[19:37] <seb128> doko, so should be sorted tomorrow
[19:37] <doko> seb128, kees: cool, thanks!
[19:38] <seb128> doko, btw do you know who is maintaining libsigc++?
[19:39] <seb128> doko, it should be updated for bug #829596
[19:39] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 829596 in glibmm2.4 (Ubuntu Oneiric) (and 1 other project) "glibmm2.4 version 2.29.11-0ubuntu1 failed to build in oneiric (affects: 1) (dups: 1) (heat: 11)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829596
[19:43] <doko> seb128, desktop stack ;-P
[19:44] <seb128> ok ok :)
[19:44] <doko> and/or aptitude, so please coordinate with mvo
[19:44] <seb128> will do
[21:40] <slangasek> cjwatson: d-i lucid/maverick accepted
[22:44] <gilir> is someone know why lubuntu daily ISO are not generated since the 18 ?
[22:59] <slangasek>  console-setup : Conflicts: console-terminus
[22:59] <slangasek> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/oneiric/lubuntu/20110823/livecd-20110823-i386.out
[22:59] <slangasek> if he comes back :)