[01:13] <roothorick> alright so
[01:13] <roothorick> what's the now official way to hibernate
[01:13] <roothorick> *new
[01:43] <roothorick> does Trusty not support hibernation yet?
[01:43] <roothorick> pm-utils doesn't resume, uswsusp just hangs at start
[01:43] <roothorick> both have done that on two different systems now
[01:51] <roothorick> welp, I just found a system that does not have legacy boot
[01:51] <roothorick> a Toshiba laptop
[01:51] <roothorick> UEFI only
[01:59] <TJ-> roothorick: no CSM at all? what model?
[02:24] <roothorick> actually come to think of it
[02:24] <roothorick> it might just be a secure boot thing
[02:24] <roothorick> because the option is there but greyed out and set to "UEFI Only"
[02:24] <roothorick> Satellite L875D-S7342
[02:25] <roothorick> unfortunately not my machine, and the owner specifically requested Win8.1 with the OEM license intact
[02:40] <TJ-> roothorick: that would sound correct; no CSM in SB mode
[03:45] <utusan> dpkg ver 1.17.1 iin trusty as well as 1.16 in saucy is not cleaning up properly.  packages purged are still showing up in listing.
[03:46] <utusan> debian testing is now at 1.17.5, and this one is working properly
[05:07] <Darkangel> Is testing Ubuntu excitered as a Job? (Volunteer job)
[05:08] <holstein> excitered?
[05:09] <Darkangel> lol cant spell today
[05:09] <holstein> i thought maybe it was something lost in translation
[05:10] <Darkangel> na its english just cant spell it
[05:11] <TJ-> Testing can be boring if you're doing it for its own sake; if you're trying to do interesting things for their sake and just happen to be trying to use the latest development packages, that can be frustrating but fun when you find and then try to isolate bugs
[05:11] <holstein> is it "exciting"?
[05:12] <holstein> is testing exciting?.. is that the question?
[05:12] <Darkangel> I look for bugs and report them to Launchpad
[05:14] <Darkangel> lol i forget what it was but whats that bug when it freezes every thing up and ur 3 lights of CAPS, NUM LOCK AND SCROLL LOCK starts flashing
[05:15] <Darkangel> any 1 know what causes it?
[05:16] <TJ-> Darkangel: usually that can be a symptom of memory corruption
[05:16] <Darkangel> kk
[05:17] <TJ-> Darkangel: CPU's PC/IP (instruction pointer) reads an invalid code and goes off somewhere it shouldn't interpreting random data as instructions
[05:17] <Darkangel> can it be cause while installing something?
[05:20] <TJ-> Darkangel: can be caused by anything... buggy code, RAM modules going bad, or not properly seated, something interfering with the memory controller, etc.
[05:21] <Darkangel> ahh ok
[05:21] <Darkangel> thank u much
[07:32] <soee> hi, somaone has lately problems to strt lightdm ?
[08:13] <soee> were there some updates lately that have influance on lightdm ?
[10:59] <benonsoftware> Hi, I just upgraded to trusty, however when I boot into the default kernel it just displys a black screen.
[11:00] <benonsoftware> However, booting into 3.11.0-15-generic makes it boot normally.
[11:18] <k1l_> benonsoftware: kernel headers installed for the prop. video driver to built?
[11:22] <benonsoftware> k1l_: Sorry, I have no idea how to do that/check it.
[11:22] <BluesKaj> Hey folks
[11:23] <k1l_> benonsoftware: check if the linux-headers-... package is installed matching to the kernel linux-image-.. package
[11:23] <benonsoftware> Okay, will do
[11:29] <benonsoftware> k1l_: It appears I have it.
[12:00] <benonsoftware> Ah nevermind, I fixed it by changing to the nvidia drivers :)
[18:35] <Darkangel> lol holy crapper whats all the libboost files for? like what do they do? there in the "New in Repository" section
[18:38] <BluesKaj> Darkangel, "New in Repository" section?
[18:39] <Darkangel> its the option in Synaptic Package Manager
[18:41] <BluesKaj> in the repositories ? I don't use synaptic
[18:42] <BluesKaj> in /etc/apt/sources.list ?
[18:43] <Darkangel> na if u open Synaptic and then go to STATUS on the bottom right ull get a list above that and 1 of them will say "New in Repository"
[18:43] <Darkangel> bottom left i mean sorry just wook up not fully focused
[18:43] <UserError> Is python 2.7 still going to be installed by default and required for the trusty server install?
[18:44] <Darkangel> yes
[18:44] <Darkangel> ill have to check though on what version is running
[18:44] <Darkangel> there doin some fine upgrades for trusty
[18:44] <BluesKaj> look in the sources.list and put a # in front to disable the repository if you don't want it, then update
[18:45] <UserError> i hope 3.x is the only one installed
[18:45] <Darkangel> na i was just woundering on what it was for lol
[18:47] <Darkangel> Im running Python 2
[18:48] <Darkangel> oops
[18:48] <Darkangel> Im running Python 2.7.6 and some other 1 Python 3.3
[18:49] <UserError> ughhhh, 2.7 is never going to die
[18:49] <Darkangel> in trusty... but i thank the other 1 is for some other purpose
[18:52] <jtaylor> its a goal to remove it from the default install
[18:52] <jtaylor> desktop at least, don't know about server
[18:52] <jtaylor> it might have already happened?
[18:52] <UserError> nice
[18:54] <Darkangel> UserError: heres some info for ya with Trusty and Python https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python
[18:54] <UserError> aw nice
[19:26] <UserError> So what i'm seeing is "we hope python3 will be the only one in Trusty"
[19:26] <UserError> :P
[19:26] <UserError> Can't even 2to3 like a boss
[19:33] <jtaylor> only in the default install
[19:33] <jtaylor> everything else is hopeless at this point
[19:34] <jtaylor> maybe in 16.06
[19:34] <jtaylor> 04
[19:37] <roothorick> hate to sound like a broken record b ut
[19:37] <roothorick> what hibernate mechanism, exactly, is 14.04 supposed to use by default? As far as I can see there isn't ANYTHING installed currently.
[19:45] <glitsj16> roothorick: should be pm-hibernate from the pm-utils package, and since 12.04 hibernate is off by default
[19:47] <roothorick> glitsj16: in 14.04 pm-utils isn't installed at all by default, and doesn't work
[19:48] <glitsj16> roothorick: you have the needed amount of swap in relation to RAM i assume?
[19:49] <roothorick> glitsj16: tried it on two different machines and the state of swap doesn't matter
[19:49] <roothorick> the resume= stuff isn't even on the kernel command line
[19:49] <roothorick> even if it was
[19:49] <roothorick> 14.04 automatically sets up cryptoswap which breaks that mechanism
[19:50] <roothorick> so I'm wondering if maybe we're supposed to use uswsusp now, but installing uswsusp renders the system unbootable
[19:52] <glitsj16> roothorick: could be, uswsusp supports encryption iirc
[19:53] <glitsj16> only relevant info i can find isn't conclusive though .. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PowerManagement/Hibernate
[20:06] <Daekdroom> Is the Rhythmbox last.fm plugin working for anyone else?
[20:07] <Daekdroom> When I enabled it for Last.FM and leave the plug-in preferences, nothing happens and opening the preferences pop up again show me it's disabled.
[21:07] <TJ-> mamarley: ping
[21:16] <mamarley> TJ-: Switching sonar to active!  PONGPONGPONGPONG
[21:16] <TJ-> mamarley: :D
[21:16] <TJ-> mamarley: I'm busy delving into the source-code. I now know why it SEGFAULTS... but I need to identify the cause of that
[21:17] <TJ-> mamarley: Could you zip/tar.gz "/etc/init/*"    and "/var/log/apt/history.log"  and put them someplace I can pull them from? probably attaching them to bug #1269731 would be best
[21:18] <TJ-> mamarley: The crux of the issue is a pointer which is supposed to point to a data-structure that represents the jobs defined in /etc/init/*.conf files is NULL. So far it looks as if a faulty conf file syntax could be the reason
[21:19] <mamarley> That sounds logical.  Doing it right now.
[21:19] <mamarley> I still think it is an upstart bug though, because faulty input should never KP the system.
[21:20] <TJ-> I think it's a subtle change in eglibc and/or gcc, brought on by some significant re-ordering of the underlying assembly instructions generated.. I wouldn't be surprised if an upstart built without compiler optimsations works fine
[21:23] <mamarley> TJ-: OK, I attached the initscripts to the bug report. My APT history isn't helpful because I have my /var/log mounted on a tmpfs. (I know, very very bad mamarley)
[21:31] <TJ-> mamarley: hehehe yeah, I forgot you're trying to make it harder
[21:39] <TJ-> mamarley: I've updated the bug with my analysis - I'll look at your init scripts now
[21:47] <TJ-> mamarley: Just looking at modification times, three alsa jobs were modified on the 14th, and nvidia-peristenced.conf on the 9th. Could you move them out of "/etc/init/" temporarily and do "sudo telinit u" and see if the SEGFAULT still occurs?
[21:47] <mamarley> OK, just a sec...
[21:52] <mamarley> TJ-: When I remove those jobs, I can then run get_state.sh successfully from the desktop (I am testing using user jobs so I don't KP the system.)
[21:53] <jrr> using a recent ubuntu-gnome trusty image, the installer's live environment run nicely, and the installer seems to complete successfully, but the first boot stays at a black screen forever. where should I start poking?
[21:53] <jrr> (I can access the filesystem to see logs)
[21:53] <mamarley> (Before, running get_state.sh would cause either an X restart or a KP, depending on whether I did it for user or system jobs.)
[21:53] <holstein> jrr: where are you getting the iso?
[21:53] <genii> !nomodeset | jrr
[21:54] <jrr> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/daily-live/current/
[21:54] <TJ-> mamarley: Can you add the jobs back one by one and retest after each one is added... we may be close to discovering the culprit
[21:54] <jrr> does the usb live image's nomodeset differ from that which is installed?
[21:56] <mamarley> TJ-: I added back all the ALSA jobs and that crashed it again.  I will now see which one is causing the problem.
[21:57] <TJ-> mamarley: You're a star :)
[21:59] <mamarley> TJ-: Thanks :) alsa-restore.conf makes it crash.  I will test the others too.
[21:59] <TJ-> with only one of them present at any time ... that would be great
[22:00] <mamarley> TJ-: Yeah, alsa-restore.conf crashed by itself.
[22:00] <TJ-> It may be they all contain the faulty syntax because they look, to me, to be almost identical
[22:01] <mamarley> TJ-: alsa-state.conf also crashes it.
[22:01] <mamarley> TJ-: All three of them crash it.
[22:02] <TJ-> OK... I'll report that
[22:04] <TJ-> mamarley: I think I've spotted the fault
[22:04] <mamarley> :) :) :)
[22:04] <TJ-> Can you move them out... then create a new empty alsa-restore.conf  and await my text for it?
[22:05] <mamarley> TJ-: OK.
[22:06] <mamarley> (With the empty file sitting there, it doesn't crash, by the way.)
[22:06] <TJ-> mamarley: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6764452/
[22:07] <mamarley> Should I add a final newline to that?
[22:07] <TJ-> yeah
[22:07] <mamarley> TJ-: It doesn't crash.
[22:08] <TJ-> Yay... I'm going to pastebin you the 2 other modified files
[22:09] <TJ-> mamarley: alsa-state.conf:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/6764479/
[22:10] <TJ-> mamarley: alsa-store.conf: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6764481/
[22:12] <TJ-> mamarley: I'm guessing it is OK now?
[22:13] <mamarley> Yep :)
[22:13] <TJ-> great teamwork :)
[22:14] <mamarley> :)
[22:14] <TJ-> I'm working up a patch for alsa-utils now
[22:30] <jrr> holstein: nomodeset gets me past the blank screen - I can now see all the text fly by, and then X starts at the wrong resolution. (nouveau)
[22:32] <jrr> googling suggests that nouveau requires nomodeset
[22:33] <jrr> er, the inverse - nouveau requires kernel mode setting
[22:34] <TJ-> jrr: resolution is read from the monitor's EDID  via DDC ... if that isn't being returned then issues will occur... first thing is to find out if the monitor is giving out valid modes: "xrandr -q" will help there
[22:35] <jrr> xrandr reports wrong (1280x1024 vs 1920x1080), but there are references to 1920 in Xorg log
[22:35] <jrr> "Supported established timings" vs "Supported standard timings"
[22:36] <jrr> also "DDC gathered Modelines" seems to carry the correct one
[22:40] <mamarley> TJ-: Shouldn't there also be a patch for upstart to prevent it from crashing when fed bad data?
[22:41] <TJ-> mamarley: I've suggested that... that's up to James though
[22:41] <TJ-> mamarley: (sloppy programming!) but don't say I said so
[22:46] <Fudge> is this ook to ignore, init: /etc/init/alsa-store.conf:10: Unknown stanza
[22:47] <Fudge> I am also getting  kernel panics when ever libc6 updates, have to chroot to fix
[22:56] <TJ-> Fudge: see bug #1269731
[23:06] <Fudge> TJ- thanks mate
[23:12] <Fudge> mamarley:  is bug 1269405  the problem with the suspected libc6?
[23:15] <Fudge> oh right, its the same
[23:18] <jrr> ooh look a kernel backtrace http://pastebin.com/33avdbMT
[23:18] <jrr> don't think I've seen one of those before
[23:26] <jrr> what's the appropriate way to file a bug for a kernel oops that I suspect is from nouveau?
[23:28] <jrr> 'linux' I guess =]


[20:26] <crimson_king> I`m on Xubuntu 18.10. Did anyone notice the task buttons have an unclickable 1px area that separates them from the edge of the screen? Is it intentional, because I'm finding it annoying to use
[20:28] <brainwash> crimson_king: that's a known bug
[20:29] <brainwash> https://wiki.xubuntu.org/releases/18.10/release-notes
[20:41] <crimson_king> brainwash, oh, right, I didn't read that...
[20:51] <brainwash> crimson_king: so, a temporary fix is to use a different theme
[21:17] <crimson_king> brainwash, good, that works, thanks
[22:05] <tomf> has anybody been able to use robotrovsky's magic trackpad 2 drivers with success?


[19:37] <ibeardslee> morning
[20:29] <ajmitch> morning
[21:10] <mwhudson> morning
[21:10] <mwhudson> thumper: enjoying the github PR process then?
[21:10] <thumper> morning
[21:10] <thumper> otp now :)
[21:11] <hads> morning
[22:32] <olly> morning
[22:40] <kcj[work]> Morning.


[05:11] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ubuntu (proper) uses gdm; Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu Budgie, and Ubuntu MATE use lightdm; Kubuntu uses sddm.
[05:14] <ErichEickmeyer> With Wayland, I think it's a session file that gets installed that can probably be omitted. I'll have to do more research on that. DMs will only look for .session files.
[05:16] <ErichEickmeyer> With the DE, I'm not quite tracking. I thought we were originally talking about having one ISO per DE, making the DE choice an ISO download thing from the website. If the user wants both, they could choose either one and then, perhaps, -welcome or -boutique will have a way to easily install the DE.
[05:17] <ErichEickmeyer> For instance, if they download the Xfce ISO and decide they want both Xfce and Plasma, then they could go to the proper page in -boutique after initial install and select it.
[05:18] <ErichEickmeyer> Just spitballing ideas here. :)
[15:28] <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: dual ISOs will not have people choose both DEs and that is one advantage of ISOs :)
[15:30] <ErichEickmeyer> Yes. Exactly.
[15:30] <OvenWerks> there have been other ideas about just choosing the DE on install all from one ISO that I have failed to forget about.
[15:30] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, but I thought, based on your recommendation, we went with the dual ISO route.
[15:31] <OvenWerks> I am not sure how to get a second ISO spun, but as I said I will run up a second seed
[15:32] <ErichEickmeyer> I think all we have to do is run it up the flagpole, as it were. Make the seed, let the release team know we would like to try this (they're already aware of the plan), ???, Profit!
[15:33] <ErichEickmeyer> I'm pretty sure tsimonq2 knows how to get that going.
[15:33] <OvenWerks> ok
[15:34] <OvenWerks> there are a number of packages for ubuntustudio that need to get released
[15:35] <ErichEickmeyer> Yes. Pretty much all of the ones we've updated (controls, default settings, icon theme, etc.)
[15:35] <OvenWerks> right
[15:35] <OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
[15:36] <OvenWerks> The top four on that page
[15:36] <ErichEickmeyer> I haven't seen much chatter from tsimonq2 lately, but I'm 90% sure he knows how to get that ball rolling.
[15:36] <OvenWerks> -meta should probably be updated too
[15:36] <ErichEickmeyer> Yes.
[15:37] <ErichEickmeyer> Would that be to remove mypaint?
[15:38] <OvenWerks> I am not sure the ISO seems to build
[15:38] <OvenWerks>  and yet the install chooser still works too
[15:38] <OvenWerks> (-live)
[15:39] <OvenWerks> so I am not sure what the relationship is beteen things
[15:41] <OvenWerks> The whole installer is confusing, there are four categoies of applications in ubiquity:
[15:41] <OvenWerks> stuff on the ISO that ends up installed
[15:42] <OvenWerks> stuff in the ISO that is not installed, but which may or may not be used in live ISO use
[15:42] <OvenWerks> stuff that is not on the ISO that gets DL and installed
[15:42] <OvenWerks> updates that get DL but not fully installed.
[15:48] <ErichEickmeyer> The daily ISO is building currently.
[15:48] <ErichEickmeyer> Once we removed mypaint it started building again.
[15:49] <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, that's a little confusing.
[15:49]  * ErichEickmeyer might take a look
[18:00] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I just did a "cry for help" in #ubuntu-devel and now the ball is rolling on getting those pushed to Cosmic.
[18:00] <ErichEickmeyer> tsimonq2 to the rescue.
[18:00] <tsimonq2> \o/
[18:00] <tsimonq2> So, continuing this here.
[18:01] <ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
[18:01] <tsimonq2> Seems like ACLs are kinda in place now.
[18:02] <tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: Could you please set https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/+git/ubuntustudio-icon-theme to be the default for https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-icon-theme ?
[18:03] <tsimonq2> https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-icon-theme is now a thing, fwiw
[18:03] <ErichEickmeyer> tsimonq2: Done.
[18:04] <ErichEickmeyer> tsimonq2: Wow, we're truckin' along on this git conversion!
[18:05] <tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: My secret is that I can do git clone bzr::lp:foo and it just converts it automatically. But it's a two-way Bazaar interface, so when I push, it's Bazaar.
[18:05] <ErichEickmeyer> Interesting. Sounds almost... too easy. XD
[18:06] <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: tsimonq2 is getting everything converted to git as well. So that should help.
[18:06] <tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: That's because it IS too easy. XD
[18:06] <ErichEickmeyer> LOL
[18:12] <tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/0.18
[18:12] <ErichEickmeyer> tsimonq2: \o/
[18:18] <ErichEickmeyer> tsimonq2: so, if I git clone bzr::lp:ubuntustudio-menu it will convert it, or is this a custom script you made?
[18:19] <tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: https://github.com/mnauw/git-remote-bzr
[18:19] <ErichEickmeyer> I C.
[18:21] <tsimonq2> ErichEickmeyer: So, I personally keep a set of packaging guidelines that I follow across these types of packages. Want me to note them somewhere?
[18:21] <ErichEickmeyer> That would be great.
[18:22] <tsimonq2> Where should I put them?
[18:24] <ErichEickmeyer> Do you have wiki access?
[18:25] <tsimonq2> I do.
[18:25] <ErichEickmeyer> Somewhere in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio would be good. We have a lot of cleanup to do there still.
[18:26] <ErichEickmeyer> So feel free to find a spot.
[18:26] <ErichEickmeyer> Or make a spot.
[18:26] <tsimonq2> OK, sure.
[18:27] <ErichEickmeyer> There's pages full of stuff that was never finished ([insert to-do item here]) that I'm half tempted to just delete and start over.
[18:28] <ErichEickmeyer> The term "distro reboot" that I said halfway in passing a couple months ago (that omgubuntu caught) seems like it keeps getting more and more apt.
[18:30] <tsimonq2> hehe
[18:30] <ErichEickmeyer> No pun intended. ;)
[18:42]  * ErichEickmeyer just noticed the Plymouth theme hasn't been touched in 9 years. :S
[18:42]  * ErichEickmeyer might play around with it
[18:46] <ErichEickmeyer> Ah, because there's literally nothing in it. :P
[19:05] <cyphermox> ErichEickmeyer: fyi, if you need sponsoring for uploads, don't hesitate to ping me
[19:07] <ErichEickmeyer> cyphermox: Awesome! Yeah, we definitely need that.  For instance, OvenWerks is working on a Plasma metapackage for our first additional desktop environment, so that will be a thing.
[19:07] <cyphermox> ErichEickmeyer: ok
[19:07] <cyphermox> I can't guarantee that I always can respond /immediately/, but I'll do my best to help you out
[19:08] <cyphermox> I suspect tsimonq2 will be happy to upload what he can too, and you should feel free to ask for help in #ubuntu-devel whenever
[19:08]  * cyphermox successfully thew tsimonq2 under the bus ;)
[19:10] <tsimonq2> cyphermox: I don't care. ;)
[19:11] <tsimonq2> cyphermox: But I might conveniently ask for a peer review on a package with a 2000 line diff. >_>
[19:11] <cyphermox> tsimonq2: cool cool
[19:11] <cyphermox> tsimonq2: fwiw, it was a joke, don't feel like you must sponsor anything
[19:11] <tsimonq2> cyphermox: Yeah, I know. :)
[19:20] <ErichEickmeyer> cyphermox: Same, I don't always respond immediately.
[19:34] <studio-devel293> hello
[19:34] <studio-devel293> is there anybudy?
[19:41] <ErichEickmeyer> studio-devel293: What's up?
[19:45] <studio-devel293> I'm Alex, and I like ubuntu studio, I'm guitar player and music producer, ubutu studio is the best way to make music...   and I'm a dba at work, how can I help or contribute to the distro
[19:45] <studio-devel293> ?
[19:46] <ErichEickmeyer> Well, Alex, thanks for your interest! There's tons of ways to contribute. Do you have any experinence with documentation, artwork, or packaging?
[19:49] <ErichEickmeyer> Also see http://ubuntustudio.org/contribute
[19:49] <studio-devel293> some times i did it, art work, documentation and packaging, today Im a a database administrator at work
[19:49] <studio-devel293> i did read it
[19:51] <ErichEickmeyer> Best thing you can do is subscribe to our developer mailing list (http://lists.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-studio-devel) and introduce yourself there, and let us know what you're interested in doing. The first step for anything is to create a Launchpad account at http://launchpad.net and also registering a permanent IRC handle here on Freenode.
[19:52] <ErichEickmeyer> So, those are your first steps. I'd help more, but I need to head to work in short order.
[19:53] <studio-devel293> thank you, go ahead!!
[19:53] <ErichEickmeyer> Thanks! Welcome!
[20:05] <nirvale> I'm Alex again!!


[13:59] <Brainstorm> Updates for Bangladesh: +2916 cases, +4 deaths, +24964 tests (11.7% positive) since 22 hours ago


[01:37] <falcojr> minimal: yes. Route to: default
[01:39] <minimal> routes:\n- to: <IP_ADDRESS>\nvia: <IP_ADDRESS> in other words?
[01:39] <minimal> and routes:\n- to: ::\nvia: abcd:def1::1 for IPv6
[01:41] <minimal> ok, I'll test this on Alpine to check it works as expected
[01:41] <falcojr> Yes
[03:44] <holmanb> AnhVoMSFT: Thanks, will take a look tomorrow.
[15:13] <caribou> Hello, I have a question regarding the Ephemeral network configs : If only IPv6 is available on the host where the VM starts, how does the EphemeralIPNetwork context mgr does the network config ?
[15:17] <minimal> caribou: Hi. I believe only a couple of the cloud-init DataSources currently support IPv6 for contacting a metadata server - the Ec2 (for AWS) and Openstack DataSources
[15:18] <caribou> As it turns out, I'm working on getting our DatasourceScaleway.py Datasource to support IPv6 only hence the question
[15:18] <caribou> maybe I can check there to start with
[15:18] <minimal> does Scaleway have a defined IPv6 endpoint for the metadata server?
[15:19] <caribou> It's part of my work, but yes there will be
[15:19] <minimal> ah, the Openstack support has not yet been merged, have a look at PR #1805 in the github repo for an example
[15:20] <caribou> great thanks !
[17:59] <meena> AnhVoMSFT: I really need to look at what FreeBSD looks like on Azure
[18:00] <meena> and i need implement driver stuff in FreeBSD.
[18:35] <AnhVoMSFT> meena: let me know how/if we can help with that
[18:44] <minimal> a question about ca-certs module - when "remove_defaults: true" is specified in user-data WHY does it delete the files in /usr/share/ca-certificates/ directory? It already removes the filenames from the /etc/ca-certificates.conf file which update-ca-certificates used to populate the /etc/ssl/certs/ directory and /etc/ssl/ca-certificates.crt file so there's no actual need to delete the files themselves
[22:11] <blackboxsw> ok I'm working on PR: 1853 in earnest to duplicate MAC detection. trying to get a couple of test runs (and failure reproducers if I can).


[15:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  9 15:00:57 2012 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:01]  * davidm waves
[15:01] <dannf> hey
[15:01] <ogra_> wow, thats timing :)
[15:01] <NCommander> [topic] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120209
[15:01] <NCommander> [topic] Action Items from last meeting
[15:01] <NCommander> [topic] janimo to look into LibO
[15:02] <ogra_> lots ;:)
[15:02] <janimo> hi
[15:02]  * NCommander looks for mercy on janimo's soul
[15:02] <ogra_> NCommander, he volunteered !
[15:02] <janimo> indeed I did
[15:02] <NCommander> dd if=/dev/mercy of=/dev/janimo/soul
[15:02] <mahmoh> hi
[15:02] <janimo> I do not (yet) regret it
[15:02] <ogra_> must have to do with his transylvanian inheritance :)
[15:02] <NCommander> janimo: yet being the operative word here
[15:03] <janimo> true. I am looking at this now on the panda. If you'll see me curse these days, it's because I've been where NCommander has been before
[15:03]  * NCommander needs a t-shirt
[15:04]  * ogra_ doesnt want to go there ... evar !
[15:04] <NCommander> "I braved the depths of hell^W Libreoffice and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"
[15:04] <ogra_> though, mono is broken too
[15:04]  * ogra_ hides
[15:04] <NCommander> [action] ogra_ to debug mono
[15:04] <meetingology> ACTION: ogra_ to debug mono
[15:04] <NCommander> Ok
[15:04] <NCommander> done
[15:04] <ogra_> lol
[15:05]  * ogra_ looks for that rock and brick he collected before
[15:05] <NCommander> janimo: anything else to report or can I move on?
[15:05] <janimo> no really?mono broken on arm? impossible, I hear a company bases it's business on it not being broken on arm. You are all lying
[15:05] <ogra_> lol
[15:05] <janimo> NCommander, nope I hope I'll make progress till next meeting
[15:05] <janimo> but I ave started on it
[15:05]  * NCommander thinks we've lost janimo to the madness already
[15:06] <ogra_> thats the winter
[15:06] <NCommander> [topic] dannf to tidy up a kernel package for armada
[15:06] <ogra_> being locked in at -20°C does weird things to you
[15:06] <NCommander> ogra_: I lived in a mountian town like that.  I thought meeting starts at 20:00 UTC >.<
[15:09] <theadmin> No fair I sezzit
[15:09] <ogra_> the ARM meeting never ever started at 20UTC
[15:10] <NCommander> We'll be having the usual IRC meeting on #ubuntu-meeting, on
[15:10] <NCommander> Thursday 2011-02-09 at 15:00 UTC.
[15:10]  * NCommander would be very happy if the meeting was at 20:00 UTC but :-P
[15:10] <NCommander> [topic] janimo or GrueMaster to test the mx5 kernel from jcrigby
[15:10]  * ogra_ wouldnt
[15:11] <GrueMaster> Done.  Latest images have the new mx5 kernel
[15:11] <theadmin> Either I'm confusing something or... Well I'm here for the first time, buuut: http://i.imm.io/gbSI.png
[15:11] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[15:11] <GrueMaster> Still fails on START-R rev board.  USB issues.
[15:12] <NCommander> theadmin: wrong meeting. This is the ARM development team meeting, not IRC council
[15:12] <theadmin> NCommander: Ah, pardon me then. ARM is cool, I'll listen in if you don't mind?
[15:12] <janimo> I tested the kernel it was ok, people uploaded it then
[15:12] <NCommander> [topic] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
[15:12]  * janimo answered late on previous topic
[15:13] <NCommander> Well
[15:13] <NCommander> ...
[15:13] <NCommander> The items are increasing
[15:13] <NCommander> I think we fail
[15:13] <ogra_> huh ?
[15:13]  * GrueMaster is too sleepy to comment on futility.
[15:13] <ogra_> we look better than ever
[15:14] <ogra_> slightly below trend (if it would be in the right angle)
[15:14] <NCommander> ogra_: we're supposed to close items, not add half-a-million new closed items
[15:14] <ogra_> nothing changed over the last week
[15:14] <NCommander> THATS NOT HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO GET ON THE TRENDLINE
[15:14]  * NCommander screams
[15:14]  * ogra_ wonmders what you are referring to=
[15:14] <NCommander> ogra_: madness
[15:14] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander)
[15:14] <ogra_> there were no items added
[15:15] <NCommander> So, I've got news!
[15:15] <theadmin> Can anyone change topic or what...
[15:15] <theadmin> [topic] tests
[15:15] <theadmin> Guess not :D
[15:15] <NCommander> I saved a bunch of money changing my insurance!
[15:15] <theadmin> Sorry, getting used to things
[15:15] <ogra_> theadmin, please dont interfere with the meeting
[15:15] <NCommander> But I also have ARM server news
[15:15] <theadmin> ogra_: Understood.
[15:15] <NCommander> armadaxp finally has a usable kernel git tree
[15:16] <ogra_> theadmin, NCommander is the meeting chairt, only the chair can change topics and we try to keep the meeting short
[15:16] <janimo> NCommander, great
[15:16] <ogra_> yay
[15:16] <rbasak> \o/
[15:16] <NCommander> Using my gitified marvell patches, cooloney made them less crack, then we ported the Marvell sauce onto the oneiric tree
[15:16] <NCommander> So we went from 3.0.15->3.0.17 with Marvell
[15:17] <NCommander> We'll now track oneiric-updates, so we'll have security and updates for Armada until oneiric goes EOL
[15:17] <ogra_> wow, two micro versions !
[15:17] <ogra_> enormous
[15:17] <ogra_> :P
[15:17] <NCommander> ogra_: it wasn't a small job, the tree we got was based off an ubuntu tree of unknown origin, which required a ton of patch sorting and fun
[15:17] <rbasak> Are there any plans to bring it up to precise?
[15:18] <rbasak> Or will it stay based on oneiric indefinitely?
[15:18] <NCommander> rbasak: Marvell has been told that weneed a 3.2 kernel. We won't be doing the work to port it
[15:18] <rbasak> OK, thanks
[15:18] <NCommander> rbasak: the armadaxp kernel will go into precise, its simply tracking oneiric since there tree is on the same major as oneiric's
[15:18] <rbasak> Right
[15:19] <NCommander> Unlessa 3.2 kernel magically materializes before release, armada xp will be a universe supported flavor
[15:20] <ogra_> even though the kernel package will live somewhere else :)
[15:20] <NCommander> infinity and I are making the necessary demonic sacirifices to get d-i to work properly like that with netboot images
[15:20] <NCommander> ogra_: no, the kernel going in universe, we decided to fix d-i
[15:20] <ogra_> NCommander, the kernel will go to main
[15:20] <ogra_> we have approval and all
[15:20] <NCommander> we did?
[15:20] <NCommander> *do
[15:20] <NCommander> Damn
[15:20] <ogra_> no d-i hacjking required
[15:21] <NCommander> we weren't goingto hijack d-i
[15:21] <ogra_> unless that changed since tuesday
[15:21] <NCommander> d-i was simply going to pull in the universe udebs during the buildstep
[15:21] <NCommander> but we got approval for unsupported kernel in main, then yay
[15:21] <ogra_> we have release team approval, the kernel package will be in main, but unsupported and not in the manifest
[15:21] <davidm> NCommander, kernel in main
[15:21] <NCommander> oh
[15:21] <NCommander> davidm: awesome
[15:22] <NCommander> That makes life insanely less complicated
[15:22] <ogra_> (if you would read the team reports you would know btw :P )
[15:22] <janimo> NCommander, although d-i supporting universe kernels would have been useful in the future for other flavours
[15:22] <janimo> or for current mx53
[15:22] <NCommander> Anyway, I'm shacking loosing the last of the packaging bugs (linux-armadaxp tried to build on amd64 for one)
[15:23] <NCommander> But we should see an upload into NEW byEOD today or tomorrow
[15:23] <mahmoh> NCommander: how soon do we expect a kernel in main?
[15:23] <ogra_> janimo, thats super tricky since there (flasely) is a way to get rid of unwanted udebs by moving them to universe ...
[15:23] <NCommander> mahmoh: once it is approved from NEW, it goes into universe. Just needs a MIR to promote
[15:23] <ogra_> janimo, making d-i universe aware would break a lot through that
[15:23] <janimo> ogra_, I am not arguing it is tricky to accomplish, but it is useful :)
[15:24] <NCommander> janimo: its probably easier to get release/kernel team blessings to dump an unsupported kernel in main
[15:24] <ogra_> janimo, yes, but we would have to fix that broken concept alongside
[15:24] <janimo> NCommander, but then it means it is supported. Are there no cases to want it unoficcially supported but workng with d-i. Is netinstall not such a use case?
[15:25] <ogra_> else we break x86 stuff
[15:25] <ogra_> which is not wanted before an LTS
[15:25] <NCommander> janimo: I proposed the solution of rm -r universe
[15:25] <NCommander> janimo: historically, we've had a few packages inmain that are unsupported
[15:25] <janimo> NCommander, I can get behind such a command
[15:25] <NCommander> linux-ports being the poster child for that trope
[15:26]  * GrueMaster wonders if this is a topic for Kernel Status?
[15:26] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
[15:26] <NCommander> Right
[15:26] <NCommander> ok
[15:26] <NCommander> I think we pretty muchcovered the current kernel status
[15:26] <NCommander> Anything else to bring up
[15:26] <janimo> ac100 new test deb based on a 3.0.19 upstream advertised on the ac100 ml
[15:26] <ogra_> janimo has a new ac100 kernel coming :)
[15:27] <ogra_> and mx5 seems sorted
[15:27]  * NCommander just got an armel/powerpc FTBFS on linux-armadaxp
[15:27] <janimo> once marvin puts it in his stable, not exp branch
[15:27] <NCommander> WOOO
[15:27] <NCommander> Packaging needs to be hit with a brick
[15:27] <ogra_> yeah
[15:27] <janimo> NCommander, I would have been more worried if that build succeeded
[15:27] <GrueMaster> mx5 kernel still needs work.  It still doesn't support USB on the newer rev board.
[15:27] <NCommander> janimo: its still running on i386 >.>;
[15:27] <ogra_> and even more if it worked :)
[15:28] <ogra_> GrueMaster, dont use USB then :P
[15:28]  * ogra_ hides behind a chair
[15:28]  * NCommander facepalms
[15:28] <janimo> GrueMaster, we should get a 3.2 mx5 kernel sometime, this is 3.1 .
[15:28] <GrueMaster> For a desktop image not to use keyboard/mouse...difficult.
[15:28] <ogra_> pfft
[15:28] <ogra_> be creative !
[15:28] <NCommander> write a script
[15:28] <ogra_> use your soldering skills ... its a dev board after all
[15:29] <GrueMaster> oem-config doesn't use preseed other wise I would.
[15:29] <NCommander> ^- ogra_
[15:29] <NCommander> Care to fix that? :-)
[15:29] <GrueMaster> And I refuse to molest any of my stock dev boards.
[15:29] <ogra_> NCommander, yes, after FF
[15:29] <ogra_> its tasked
[15:30] <NCommander> cool
[15:30] <GrueMaster> Soldering iron == bad touch.
[15:30] <ogra_> try the other side :P
[15:30] <NCommander> ew
[15:30] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:30] <NCommander> libo is broken
[15:30] <NCommander> mono is broken
[15:30] <NCommander> four letter words are broken
[15:30] <janimo> given back empathy anf gnome-games on armhf
[15:30] <GrueMaster> No, say it isn't so....
[15:31] <janimo> armel is still waiting for the fixed mesa to build
[15:31] <NCommander> janimo: package name? I'll rescore
[15:31] <ogra_> upstart seems to need some love
[15:31] <janimo> NCommander, waiting for build to finish, it has started 8 h ago
[15:31] <janimo> finished in 1h:30 on armhf
[15:31] <ogra_> and indeed qtwebkit
[15:31] <janimo> we need more pandas in the build center
[15:31] <NCommander> janimo: ow
[15:32] <ogra_> well, all images failed due to empathy/gnome-games
[15:32] <ogra_> (but thats for a later topic)
[15:32] <janimo> due to mesa egl not providing some deps
[15:32] <janimo> so not actually a change in those gnome apps
[15:32] <NCommander> movingon
[15:32] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:33] <ogra_> awww, did they switcfh them to clutter ?
[15:33] <ogra_> well, all images failed due to empathy/gnome-games
[15:33] <ogra_> :)
[15:33] <janimo> ogra_, I think gnome games has been using clutter for a long time
[15:33]  * ogra_ likes his "up" key
[15:33] <janimo> empathy, no idea.
[15:33] <ogra_> k
[15:33] <ogra_> we should test performance then
[15:33] <janimo> empathy uses every technology
[15:33] <ogra_> GrueMaster, can you do a quick check with your next desktop tests ?
[15:33] <ogra_> just to see if they are still usable
[15:34] <GrueMaster> Check what?
[15:34] <ogra_> (i.e. play mahjongg for 5 min)
[15:34] <GrueMaster> WHAT?!?!?  Me play a game???
[15:34] <ogra_> not sure how to test empathy
[15:34]  * GrueMaster shuders
[15:34] <ogra_> you could try a voip call or so
[15:34] <janimo> I think we should drop games altogether and let people use games in their browser
[15:34] <ogra_> ++
[15:34] <ogra_> tell that to -desktop though
[15:34] <NCommander> GrueMaster: try playing Skyrim with qemu-user-i386 + wine on ARM
[15:35] <GrueMaster> Yea, I'll check them
[15:35] <ogra_> NCommander, qemu-x86 wont run
[15:35] <GrueMaster> Erm, no.
[15:35] <janimo> well if I was in charge I'd drop empathy too and the whole telepathy baggage
[15:35] <ogra_> threading issues i was told by linaro
[15:35] <janimo> but I am not
[15:35] <GrueMaster> Alien Arena on panda might be interesting though.
[15:35] <ogra_> cant make it work
[15:35] <ogra_> well, thats all about images i had :)
[15:36] <NCommander> nethack works great on ARM, what other game do you need?
[15:36] <GrueMaster> Zork works too.
[15:36]  * NCommander does wish Dwarf Fortress was opensource so he could 1. package it 2.compile it on ARM
[15:36] <GrueMaster> Just saying.
[15:36] <ogra_> well, wait until nethack gets switched to clutter too
[15:36] <NCommander> ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH\
[15:36] <NCommander> HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
[15:36] <ogra_> upstream has funny ideas lately
[15:36] <ogra_> to clutter the world etc
[15:38] <janimo> nethack too works in a browser I hear
[15:38] <janimo> we need less apps in the image, so we have fewer bugs
[15:38] <janimo> :)
[15:38] <ogra_> haha
[15:38] <ogra_> NCommander, move ?
[15:39] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
[15:39] <GrueMaster> Spot tested 20120207.1 desktop armhf images yesterday.  mx5 had a few issues (HDMI addon board had it confused, and START-R still doesn't see USB).
[15:39] <GrueMaster> Also worked up a few scripts to start testing on arm server (LAMP, Ruby on Rails, suspend/resume).
[15:40] <GrueMaster> Tested the 3.0.17 kernel on armadaxp.  The Marvell patches do something wacky to mmap, it fails to allocate above 2900M.
[15:41] <GrueMaster> That bug was fixed in all other arm kernels (bug 861296).
[15:42] <GrueMaster> Starting to dive into power meter testing today/tomorrow.  Hope to have some data starting next week.
[15:42] <GrueMaster> Not much else to report.  Just lots of work going on.
[15:43] <ogra_> http://image.img-erento.com/20171/5073643_dia_2.jpg
[15:43] <ogra_> power meter testing ?
[15:43] <NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
[15:43]  * rsalveti waves
[15:43] <GrueMaster> Using a power meter to measure system amp load while running.
[15:43] <rsalveti> we're all busy at connect mostly this week
[15:44] <rsalveti> but we worked on helping fixing a bunch of multiarch related packages
[15:44] <rsalveti> and the cross buildd is almost ready, just fixing the web interface to be easy to use
[15:44] <ogra_> GrueMaster, i was referring to the pic :)
[15:44] <rsalveti> another good thing is that riku is now working on trying to get libreoffice to build and work for armhf
[15:45]  * ogra_ humps rsalveti's leg
[15:45] <rsalveti> NCommander: just make sure you send everything you had in the past
[15:45] <rsalveti> if you didn't do it already
[15:45] <GrueMaster> So, another duplication of effort?  Great.
[15:45] <ogra_> GrueMaster, no, a handover
[15:45] <rsalveti> not duplication, we're working together on this
[15:45] <NCommander> rsalveti: you have a time machine?
[15:45] <rsalveti> :-)
[15:46] <rsalveti> meanwhile steve is working on ruby and haskell I believe
[15:46] <rsalveti> but it's probably not critical for the desktop
[15:47] <rsalveti> should have a better report next week, once connect is done :-)
[15:47] <rsalveti> but that's mostly it
[15:47] <rsalveti> I asked the freescale LT to fix the imx53 3.2 kernel
[15:47] <rsalveti> we'll see how it goes
[15:48] <rsalveti> questions?
[15:49] <janimo> rsalveti, do you know about omap4 sgc for armhf?
[15:49] <janimo> omap3
[15:49] <janimo> sorry
[15:49] <ogra_> rsalveti, is anyone ever looking at chromium again ?
[15:49] <rsalveti> janimo: we hope that koen will get this fixed and released soon
[15:49] <ogra_> i wonder what we should do with it, the binary in the archive is three releases old
[15:49] <janimo> rsalveti, ok thanks
[15:49] <rsalveti> I'll talk with him next week, but he was working on getting it available for angstrom
[15:50] <rsalveti> ogra_: if we get a new release, we update
[15:50] <rsalveti> otherwise we'll just kill it  for now
[15:50] <NCommander> anything else
[15:50] <rsalveti> I believe we'll get it at some point, not yet sure for precise
[15:50] <ogra_> rsalveti, well, there were three (or four) new releases
[15:50] <rsalveti> ogra_: is chromium broken again?
[15:50] <ogra_> it didnt build since natty
[15:51] <ogra_> or even before
[15:51] <rsalveti> I remember riku said it was fixed, maybe with debian, will ping him today
[15:51] <rsalveti> .. :-)
[15:52] <ogra_> i think he only made it cross buildable
[15:52] <ogra_> it still fails in the archive
[15:52] <rsalveti> well, if it works by cross building it there's hope to have it working natively
[15:52] <ogra_> right, iirc there were issues with ffmpeg or so
[15:53] <ogra_> riku will likely know more
[15:53] <rsalveti> #action rsalveti to follow with riku to see if chromium will get fixed
[15:53] <meetingology> ACTION: rsalveti to follow with riku to see if chromium will get fixed
[15:53] <ogra_> or micahg ... iirc he took over from riku but gave up
[15:53] <rsalveti> #action rsalveti to follow with koen at ELC to see if we'll get armhf drivers for sgx (omap3)
[15:53] <meetingology> ACTION: rsalveti to follow with koen at ELC to see if we'll get armhf drivers for sgx (omap3)
[15:54] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[15:55] <NCommander> closing the meeting out in 3
[15:55] <NCommander> 2
[15:55] <NCommander> 1
[15:55] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[15:55] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  9 15:55:11 2012 UTC.
[15:55] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-09-15.00.moin.txt
[15:55] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-09-15.00.html
[17:06] <micahg> ogra_: I didn't give up, just haven't had time to work on it yet
[17:06] <ogra_> ah, well
[17:48] <ubunterodelaoxti> hello world
[19:53] <EvilResistance> AlanBell:  chance a /query?
[19:53] <EvilResistance> s/chance/can you spare time for/
[19:53] <AlanBell> EvilResistance: sure
[19:56] <Myrtti> nice timing
[19:57] <Tm_T> yup
[19:57]  * theadmin indicates she's here and waiting for the meeting to begin.
[19:57] <Tm_T> whatever it is you're referring to
[19:57] <Unit193> Tm_T: Funky timeout
[19:58] <Tm_T> that too
[19:58] <Myrtti> indeedy
[19:58] <EvilResistance> i'm also waiting for the meeting to begin, just checking something for one of the items on the agenda though :P
[20:00] <Pici> \o
[20:01] <AlanBell> afternoon all
[20:02] <theadmin> Hey everyone :)
[20:02] <AlanBell> everyone sitting comfortably with $beverage at hand?
[20:02]  * theadmin sure is
[20:02] <EvilResistance> AlanBell:  check the last set of privmsgs, btw
[20:02] <AlanBell> EvilResistance: yeah, got that :)
[20:02] <AlanBell> #startmeeting
[20:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  9 20:02:35 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[20:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[20:02] <oCean> o/
[20:03] <AlanBell> #meetingtopic IRCC team meeting
[20:03] <AlanBell> #meetingtopic IRCC team
[20:03] <pangolin> o/
[20:04] <AlanBell> hi all and welcome to the IRCC and team meeting
[20:04] <Pici> hi!
[20:04] <AlanBell> agenda is over here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[20:04] <AlanBell> and I think we can go fairly swiftly through the first section and on to some of the topics deferred from the last meeting
[20:04] <AlanBell> so lets start
[20:05] <AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
[20:05] <AlanBell> #progress AlanBell to call for helpers to implement eir-like functionality in ubottu
[20:05] <AlanBell> yeah, I kind of failed to do that, however EvilResistance has just been talking about experimenting with some very relevant code
[20:06] <AlanBell> I will do the mail to the list this evening and we can discuss that further in an agenda item down the list
[20:06] <AlanBell> #progress meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped
[20:06] <Pici> sounds good
[20:06] <AlanBell> we did discuss other times and picked this time for todays meeting
[20:06] <theadmin> 11:00 UTC isn't really a comfortable time I beleive, sounds good for me too
[20:06] <AlanBell> I kind of need to sort out the fridge calendar properly
[20:07] <AlanBell> theadmin: yeah, we tried and couldn't find *anyone* who liked that slot
[20:07] <Unit193> Jussi did though
[20:08] <AlanBell> I am currently thinking we should have a predictable one every other sunday evening as it is now, and a less predictable one that bounces about
[20:08] <AlanBell> not every other Sunday, every third or fourth sunday or something
[20:09] <AlanBell> #action AlanBell to sort out fridge calendar entries
[20:09] <meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to sort out fridge calendar entries
[20:09] <AlanBell> ok, any other comments on timings?
[20:09] <Tm_T> yeah, meeting times could move a bit occasionally
[20:10] <AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
[20:10] <AlanBell> there has been no activity to report
[20:10] <AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
[20:10] <AlanBell> not much bug activity since the last meeting either, so lets whip through them fairly quick
[20:10] <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson
[20:11] <theadmin> That kind of makes sense. I think separate guidelines for -offtopic, -irc and -ops are required.
[20:11] <AlanBell> there is a draft that should be linked to from the bug
[20:11] <Tm_T> theadmin: there will be one guideline to rule them all
[20:12] <pangolin> theadmin: I disagree the guidelines should be the same for all ubuntu* channels.
[20:12] <Pici> aye
[20:12] <LjL> i don't think separate guidelines are required, guidelines are guidelines, we have bot factoids for more specific things
[20:12] <pangolin> I disagree, *
[20:12] <theadmin> Well, either that or rule out the current guideline to be suitable for all the channels. Yeah, that sounds better.
[20:12] <pangolin> what is the hold up on the draft?
[20:12] <AlanBell> someone have a link to the draft handy?
[20:13] <pangolin> hmm, it is on a kde.pad somesuch link
[20:13] <Tm_T> I thought the draft was already approved and implemented :o
[20:14] <pangolin> Tm_T: hasn't been changed on the wiki
[20:14] <Tm_T> hohum
[20:14] <Unit193> http://notes.kde.org/ubuntuguidelines
[20:15] <Pici> The draft should be on the wiki in /irc/ somewhere imo.
[20:15] <AlanBell> thanks Unit193, I added that to the bug
[20:15] <AlanBell> ok, will have a look at that later
[20:15] <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi
[20:16]  * Pici makes a note to look over the guidelines document
[20:16] <AlanBell> recruitment is ongoing, we need to look at the other channel queues perhaps
[20:16] <theadmin> That xD I'm here because I'm a wannabe op so that's of major interest for me. I'd be happy to help out really.
[20:17] <AlanBell> great
[20:17] <AlanBell> anyone know any channels in need of a call for ops?
[20:17] <EvilResistance> i've put my name in for consideration for op on #ubuntu, so this was one of the items on the list that piqued my interest ;P
[20:17] <EvilResistance> (for the record)
[20:18] <Pici> When?
[20:18] <pangolin> Doesn't the IRCC only do calls for the core channels?
[20:18] <EvilResistance> Pici:  last 7 days, dont bother with putting me onto any ops list without further vetting
[20:18] <AlanBell> pangolin: yes
[20:18] <theadmin> Stuff which happens on #ubuntu nowadays is annoying, too many ciao-!list-italians (nothing we can do with them though), and huge mass of spambots and trolls :(
[20:18] <theadmin> Ops care about that, but not always around
[20:18] <EvilResistance> theadmin makes a point, there have been times i've seen spam occurring, pulled !ops, and it wasnt dealt with for a significant period of time
[20:19] <EvilResistance> generally when freenode staffers are also not around, so going to them for emegency help doesnt work
[20:19] <Tm_T> AlanBell: eh, we had this kind of discussion going on too?
[20:19] <AlanBell> Pici: just asking if there is an urgent need in any particular area
[20:19]  * Tm_T needs to follow things more closely it seems
[20:19] <pangolin> AlanBell: not at this time IMO
[20:19] <Pici> AlanBell: I know.  My question was directed at EvilResistance.
[20:19] <oCean> I think -server probably still lacks op coverage every now and then
[20:19] <Tm_T> oCean: I don't see ops calls there happening
[20:20] <AlanBell> Tm_T: well the general bug is about how we do recruitment, which we are in the process of doing with the #lubuntu channel and others will follow
[20:20] <Pici> An ops responsibilities are more than just answering ¡ops calls.
[20:20] <EvilResistance> Pici:  i've put my name into the queue on the launchpad site just 4 days ago, i removed it about 17 days before that after putting myself in for consideration because of several issues that occurred simultaneously in that same time period
[20:20] <Tm_T> AlanBell: yeah, just that it's hidden in bug report (not mailinglist)
[20:20] <AlanBell> anyhow, lets move on, I want to get to a bunch of the main topics
[20:21] <Tm_T> Pici: I aknowledge, just wondering the need (:
[20:21] <Pici> Aye
[20:21] <theadmin> Hm, aye. Even though this one is important.
[20:21] <AlanBell> Tm_T: well it is a bug report which is discussed in every meeting, so not very well hidden
[20:21] <Tm_T> AlanBell: I know, I just haven't been following meetings, only mailinglist
[20:21] <EvilResistance> (including but not limited to family issues)
[20:22] <Tm_T> and poorly that too
[20:22] <EvilResistance> s/issues/emergency items/
[20:22] <pangolin> AlanBell: I think the current process is fine. IRCC makes a call, people apply, ask current ops opinions?? ,IRCC makes a decision .
[20:22] <AlanBell> Tm_T: the one that I post the minutes to :)
[20:22] <AlanBell> anyhow, lets crack on
[20:22] <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell
[20:22] <AlanBell> no further progress on this one, down to about 15 I think, we will do more on that soon
[20:22] <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell
[20:23] <Pici> Are we still going to move this to wiki.u.c?
[20:23] <AlanBell> it was cleaned up which is great, and it would be nice to migrate the content on to wiki.ubuntu.com still
[20:24] <theadmin> I think that'd be a good point... I didn't even know ubottu had it's own wiki o_o
[20:24] <AlanBell> I think moving it is a low priority now that it has been de-spammed
[20:25] <Pici> k
[20:25] <AlanBell> theadmin: it only has a small number of pages http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Special:AllPages
[20:26] <AlanBell> ok, lets get on to the main topics now
[20:26] <theadmin> In that case, merging it with the main wiki makes most sense
[20:26] <AlanBell> #topic The plan for the bots
[20:26]  * funkywhat grumbles. Sorry I'm late everyone
[20:26] <AlanBell> hi funkywhat o/
[20:26] <theadmin> ohai
[20:27] <Pici> This is a rather vauge topic.
[20:27] <AlanBell> so EvilResistance has some plans for eir-like ban timeout removals which is great
[20:27] <funkywhat> My cheap VPS picked a choice time to decide to die
[20:27] <AlanBell> it is a vauge topic
[20:28] <EvilResistance> AlanBell:  you should, in fact, be giving niko the credit.
[20:28] <pangolin> what is the plan?
[20:28] <EvilResistance> i started looking for eir-like bantracker and ban removal functionality about a month ago for #trekweb, my group's channel, and niko presented the ubotufr code.
[20:28] <EvilResistance> Bundled up in it is a Channel plugin that has integrated bantracker and ban removal
[20:29] <LjL> EvilResistance: so this would replace the existing bantracker entirely?
[20:29] <EvilResistance> LjL:  its been a while since i've dug around in the current structure of #ubuntu and related channel bantrackers, but it could indeed.
[20:30] <EvilResistance> thus far, i've tested the +q and +b tracking functionality with success
[20:30] <EvilResistance> and confirmed autoremoval of bans does operate
[20:30] <LjL> I'll just say, keep in mind that things need to scale. #ubuntu is big, and it's possible that something that works for smaller channels does not for it...
[20:30] <pangolin> I think we need something that would use the existing bantracker
[20:30] <AlanBell> yeah, I think so too
[20:30] <EvilResistance> pangolin:  if i might inquire, what is the current bantracker?
[20:30] <LjL> pangolin: well, the existing bantracker does have its own set of issues, and there have been previous attempts to replace it.
[20:30] <theadmin> Agreed. The current one seems to work fine, though I've seen accidents (like it unbanning people ops have just banned)
[20:31] <LjL> theadmin: that's not the bantracker, that's eir
[20:31] <theadmin> Oh
[20:31] <theadmin> What is eir if I may ask
[20:31] <theadmin> ?
[20:31] <pangolin> LjL: my concern is to not lose the data we have gathered in the bantracker.
[20:31] <EvilResistance> eir's freenode's utility bot
[20:31] <LjL> The bantracker is have is a private website that we use to keep logs of bans.
[20:31] <theadmin> EvilResistance: Ah, thanks.
[20:31] <LjL> pangolin: yes, that should be migrated in case of a replacement.,
[20:31] <EvilResistance> it has bantracker functionality built in.
[20:31] <EvilResistance> theadmin:  see #defocus :P
[20:31] <EvilResistance> its also the voice-bot there
[20:31] <Pici> EvilResistance: any new bantracker will need to have the old bans migrated into it.
[20:32] <EvilResistance> indeed.
[20:32] <niko> i doubt sqlite can handle that :)
[20:32] <theadmin> That too, and that might be a problem depending on database structures.
[20:33] <AlanBell> I am mainly thinking that ubottu needs to grow some code for ban timeouts, which might well be releated to code existing in ubottufr
[20:33] <AlanBell> or might not
[20:33]  * Pici too
[20:33] <pangolin> +1
[20:34] <theadmin> I apologize for my lack of knowledge (is my first time here), but isn't ubottu mainly just a factoid bot?
[20:34] <AlanBell> plus there are a heap of other plugins in the ubottufr codebase which do interesting things
[20:34] <Myrtti> theadmin: no, not really
[20:34] <AlanBell> theadmin: that is the tip of a fairly substantial iceburg
[20:34] <pangolin> theadmin: the user facing part of it yes.
[20:34] <EvilResistance> theadmin:  if i'm not mistaken, its also got bugtracker modules in it, amongst other supybot modules which are available
[20:34] <theadmin> Ah yeah the bugtracker
[20:34] <theadmin> I see
[20:35] <Pici> And the package info stuff.
[20:35] <Tm_T> it also nags to us
[20:35] <Tm_T> nagity nagity nag
[20:35] <AlanBell> and the floodbot integration
[20:35] <Tm_T> <3
[20:35] <Unit193> Generally, http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Plugins
[20:35] <LjL> Anyway, I'd personally be looking for a short term solution right now, i.e. hacking ban removal into ubottu.
[20:35] <pangolin> I think the best thing would be to implement fresh code or translate some of niko's code if applicable and make it work with what we have.
[20:36] <LjL> Then replacing the bantracker would still be something to be considered (because it *is* old).
[20:37] <AlanBell> yup, agreed
[20:37] <AlanBell> ok, so some actions arising from this?
[20:37] <pangolin> ask for help from the users
[20:37] <pangolin> email the users list and see who is willing to hack at ubottu
[20:37] <pangolin> or help hack it
[20:38] <AlanBell> ok. I will do that this evening
[20:38] <AlanBell> #action AlanBell to mail the list asking for help to add ban timeout removal to ubottu
[20:38] <meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to mail the list asking for help to add ban timeout removal to ubottu
[20:38] <pangolin> include what channel and who to talk to :)
[20:39] <theadmin> ubottu is python right?
[20:39] <AlanBell> in the email, right
[20:39]  * theadmin considers
[20:39] <AlanBell> theadmin: yes, she is
[20:39] <EvilResistance> theadmin:  ubottu's supybot if i remember right...
[20:39] <pangolin> theadmin: yeah
[20:39] <LjL> Remember there is still #ubuntu-bots-team. I think even though it's little used, people who want to brainstorm *should* do it there.
[20:39] <AlanBell> LjL: yes, that is where I was going to say in the mail
[20:40] <AlanBell> ok, lets move on for now
[20:40] <EvilResistance> forgive the ignorance, but which mailing list is the users mailing list?
[20:40] <AlanBell> #topic Definition of where official announcements from the IRCC will be made for those with a need for no discussion but announcements - jussi
[20:40] <pangolin> EvilResistance<EMAIL_ADDRESS>iirc
[20:40] <AlanBell><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:40] <pangolin> ah that
[20:41] <Pici> Isn't there a news/fridge thing on the planet too?
[20:41] <jussi> well, Im here...
[20:41] <pangolin> jussi: :)
[20:41] <AlanBell> so this item from jussi was asking where we announce things
[20:41] <AlanBell> jussi: \o/
[20:41] <pangolin> Pici: asking planet is a good idea also
[20:41] <LjL> Last time, someone (maybe me) was saying that those of you who blog, could agree on a "tag" to use for IRCC-related stuff...
[20:42] <AlanBell> personally I am kind of keen on announcing things in meetings so they are minuted, and sending to the mailing list and or news team as appropriate
[20:43] <jussi> as I said in the background, I would like to have a central place all these things are - the problem with ircc'ers individual blogs are that they change, if you were looking for all the announcements now, where would you need to go, my blog, topyli's, elkys etc etc
[20:43] <LjL> jussi: hence a tag
[20:43] <Tm_T> AlanBell: meetings good, but should never be that alone (:
[20:43] <Pici> A dedicated place on the wiki could be used then
[20:43] <LjL> jussi: if you're aggregated on the planet, one could search for that, no?
[20:43] <jussi> I think we can learn from freenodes successful blogging here
[20:43] <AlanBell> yeah, I don't think blogs are so great
[20:43] <theadmin> A tag for all blog's and then a central aggregator, sure
[20:44] <Tm_T> in the end, best way to catch irc people is, tadaa, irc /:
[20:44] <theadmin> Then again I don't blog lol
[20:44] <AlanBell> Tm_T: yes, which is why I like IRC meetings :)
[20:44] <Tm_T> AlanBell: that way there's mailing list trace too
[20:45] <theadmin> Yeah IRC
[20:45] <jussi> Tm_T: but irc sucks for this kinds of stuff. its hard to parse, hard for finding old stuff
[20:45] <Tm_T> but nothing stops doing blogs too
[20:45] <Tm_T> jussi: I know
[20:45] <jussi> doesnt suit longer announcements.
[20:45] <LjL> But I do kind of agree with AlanBell, the actual/official/whatever-you-call-it place to announce things should be on the mailing list (which can come on its turn from meeting minutes), the rest being accessory.
[20:45] <theadmin> Mailing lists are need, although... Say, are Ubuntu's mailing lists available as RSS feeds?
[20:45] <LjL> jussi: but you have minutes from the meetings on the mailing list
[20:45] <funkyHat> Planets don't keep reasonable amount of history, I don't think, so that's probably not ideal
[20:45] <Tm_T> jussi: don't ask how often I grep through my multigigabyte logs...
[20:45] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC
[20:47] <AlanBell> I think there is a disconnect here, between "the official place to announce stuff" and "places to get announcements read and archived by lots of people"
[20:47] <Tm_T> irc meetings covers irc and mailinglist, people can write longer announcements to mailinglist after/before the meeting and the same message can be blogged...
[20:47] <AlanBell> and it isn't just announcements I think
[20:48] <jussi> AlanBell: minutes are one thing, blog posts are another. the blog posts are supposed to have the deeper explanation of what the ircc has done, and perhaps why. Its announcements, but with reason as well.
[20:48] <AlanBell> so things like a call for ops gets announced in a meeting, gets mailed to the list, goes to the news team
[20:48] <Pici> I don't think that there can be only one place for announcements.
[20:49] <Tm_T> Pici: I agree
[20:49] <AlanBell> jussi: are you proposing specifically that the IRCC set up a blog somewhere?
[20:49] <Tm_T> but there has to be one starting point, from where you then spread it further
[20:50] <Pici> The wiki makes the most sense to me.
[20:50] <jussi> AlanBell: yes, I am. making a multi user blog is minimal work.
[20:50] <theadmin> Agreed. Mailing lists aren't central, blogs have the same problem to a degree... I guess if we had a central blogs/news site it would work
[20:50] <jussi> we could have one up on ubottu.com in a short time
[20:51] <Pici> I think the IRC team landing page on the wiki is the best place.
[20:51] <AlanBell> jussi: it is minimal work, but an empty blog is a sad sad thing, we need to know if it is something we can love and care for
[20:51] <AlanBell> this page Pici? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam
[20:51] <Unit193> I have found more info in blogs in the past
[20:51] <jussi> AlanBell: yes, agreed. that of course is something for the ircc to decide if thwey can maintain.
[20:52] <theadmin> Then again blogging usually means more or less long announcements
[20:52] <jussi> AlanBell: what Im proposing is somethign like the freenode blog
[20:52] <theadmin> For something short we could probably set up a status.net setup or something...
[20:52] <theadmin> I dunno even
[20:52] <AlanBell> http://blog.freenode.net/
[20:53] <theadmin> jussi: We know :) AlanBell tries to make a point that not all members would care for it
[20:53] <theadmin> jussi: Maybe, that is
[20:53] <AlanBell> well we could post meeting minutes there at least
[20:54] <Myrtti> freenode does have a facebook/google+/twitter/identica-accounts for quick "oh noes, verne kicked the bucket" messages...
[20:54] <jussi> Im really sorry, need to go tend to the little one, I think Ive made my point though
[20:54] <AlanBell> thanks jussi
[20:54] <Tm_T> Myrtti: and wallop (so irc)
[20:54] <Tm_T> jussi: give a hug from me
[20:54] <AlanBell> so it wouldn't be much effort to set up a blog, but it is one more thing to have and maintain
[20:55] <Myrtti> Tm_T: if something on freenode side is broken, people don't have access to it necessarily...
[20:55] <AlanBell> and probably wouldn't get used massively often
[20:55] <Myrtti> so it has to be offsite as well
[20:55] <Tm_T> Myrtti: yup, thus not relying on just one
[20:55] <Tm_T> medium
[20:56] <AlanBell> gah, we need to move on, I think we need to consider this and decide next meeting
[20:56] <pangolin> I think I agree with AlanBell that irc stuff should be done on irc and also with pici in backing it up with w.u.c
[20:56] <Tm_T> anyway, I think things should be said on irc meeting, thus mailinglist, and if there's anything worth a blog post, then do that too
[20:56] <Tm_T> but in this order
[20:56] <AlanBell> yes
[20:56] <LjL> agreed
[20:56] <theadmin> Sounds great for me
[20:56] <Pici> yes
[20:57] <pangolin> yup
[20:57] <funkyHat> ok
[20:57] <LjL> sí
[20:57] <pangolin> we have consensus.
[20:57] <pangolin> the Borg prevail
[20:57]  * funkyHat asplodes
[20:57] <AlanBell> so I think we can agree that "the definition of where official announcemnets will be made" is in an IRCC meeting
[20:57] <Tm_T> yes
[20:57] <theadmin> Yeah :)
[20:57] <AlanBell> and then we communicate out from there, in routes which may or may not include a team blog at some point
[20:58] <AlanBell> #agreed official announcements from the IRCC will be made in IRCC meetings on IRC with minutes and articles distributed as appropriate
[20:58] <AlanBell> #topic Using bots to inform users about #ubuntu-ops (and their expected behavior there) when they are banned - LjL
[20:58] <AlanBell> yeah, lets do that :)
[20:58] <LjL> ok so my proposed announcement for the bot to give would be
[20:59] <LjL> You have been banned from #ubuntu. If you believe this ban was in error or want to appeal it, join the channel #ubuntu-ops and discuss it. Please be calm and patient and avoid being confrontational while there. Your ban will only be resolved if the operators can be convinced you can act reasonably.
[20:59] <LjL> like yes/no
[20:59] <theadmin> Replace #ubuntu with $channel or something like that.
[20:59] <theadmin> But otherwise looks good heh
[20:59] <LjL> sure
[20:59] <theadmin> Should be in a privmsg imo
[21:00] <pangolin> I would remove "Your ban will only be resolved if the operators can be convinced you can act reasonably."
[21:00] <theadmin> Otherwise the user might not notice it.
[21:00] <LjL> it would certainly be in PM
[21:00] <funkyHat> pangolin: why?
[21:00] <AlanBell> theadmin: it would have to be, they have just been kicked out of the channel
[21:00] <pangolin> might invite some to act as if they will follow the guidelines only to have the ban removed and continue trolling/whatever got them banned.
[21:00] <theadmin> AlanBell: My point -- most clients close the window on part/kick
[21:01] <LjL> if the floodbots are going to do this, though, it will only work for #ubuntu. otherwise ubottu could do it I guess, but in that case I'm not sure I could implement it myself.
[21:01] <AlanBell> ah, good point
[21:01] <theadmin> Hm yeah
[21:02] <oCean> I agree with pangolin, not sure how to rephrase that last part yet
[21:02] <AlanBell> I think it would probably be best done by ubottu (or the floodbots would have to figure out which one is doing the messaging)
[21:02] <pangolin> otherwise I like the idea and we should get it started asap
[21:02] <LjL> AlanBell: that shouldn't be a problem, the floodbots already decide that among themselves with other kinds of messages
[21:02] <AlanBell> ok
[21:03] <LjL> The thing is, with the floodbots, I could do it within the next 10 minutes in all likelihood, with ubottu, who knows.
[21:03] <AlanBell> anyhow, having it in ubottu makes sense to me, could be useful for all the lubotu clones but sending to #ubuntu-irc
[21:03] <pangolin> I need to step away. thanks for the good meeting folks.
[21:03] <AlanBell> #agreed private message from bots on ban explaining how to get to #ubuntu-ops would be a good feature
[21:04] <AlanBell> #topic Concerns about using goo.gl short links in the topic/bot due to Google's privacy policy changes - LjL
[21:04] <AlanBell> ok, for this one I believe we are all sorted LjL?
[21:04] <Pici> Are we?
[21:04] <Pici> Or can the rest of us be enlightened?
[21:04] <AlanBell> and yeah, we are running slightly over time
[21:04] <LjL> About this one, in case anyone missed the news, Google are changing their privacy policy, and they will aggregate all data from users among their various services.
[21:05] <LjL> I don't like us supporting that aggregation, and I would rather switch to a different shortener.
[21:05] <LjL> I've set up one on ubottu.com that could serve our purpose.
[21:05] <theadmin> That sounds great, I wanted to suggest using our own as well.
[21:05] <theadmin> Because that will never change rules without our approval.
[21:05] <Pici> I'd prefer something that doesn't break if ubottu.com goes down.
[21:06] <LjL> Advantages are: it has detailed statistics we can use; it can allow things like http://ubottu.com/y/gl for the Guidelines URL, i.e. our custom shortcuts
[21:06] <LjL> Pici: anything can go down, can it not?
[21:06] <theadmin> Yeah that's just paranoia pici, anything goes down. Sorry, no offense but >.<
[21:06] <AlanBell> Pici: well if ubottu.com goes down then ubottu won't be handing out factoids with links in them
[21:06] <LjL> AlanBell: although there is still the channel topic
[21:07] <LjL> which is where most "short" links are currently found
[21:07] <AlanBell> yeah, it isn't a general purpose public shortening service, just for topic links and factoid contents, with links being created by any ops
[21:08] <theadmin> What's the point of shortening links anyway? Most lead to pages with pretty short URLs anyway, I don't really see long ones. Then again it's good to have things like that at handy
[21:08] <LjL> But I do think when ubottu.com goes down, we have worse concerns than the links
[21:08] <LjL> like missing the bot, the bantracker and ALL THE THINGS
[21:08] <Pici> Beacuse the topic and factoids are limited by the number of characters they can be
[21:08] <LjL> theadmin: http://help.ubuntu.com/community/Blah is not very short ;)
[21:08] <theadmin> LjL: Not really, much shorter than URLs I keep accidentally pasting from Google searches
[21:09] <AlanBell> I was tempted to get a really short URL for it by I couldn't find a nice one available
[21:09] <AlanBell> anyhow, lets move on as this topic is mostly resolved I think
[21:09] <AlanBell> #topic Rename "probation" to "induction" in the IRC operator recruitment process - AlanBell
[21:09] <theadmin> Agreed, let's decide on ubottu.com shortener for that one and move on
[21:09] <AlanBell> what do you think of this?
[21:09] <LjL> what's in a name
[21:10] <theadmin> hhmmmm... In my opinion it should be just called "testing period" :/ Neither "probation" nor "induction" make much sense to me
[21:10] <AlanBell> I think probation is a bit negative sounding
[21:10] <Tm_T> theadmin: testing?
[21:10] <theadmin> Tm_T: Isn't it just that? Testing the new op?
[21:10] <LjL> well, as a speaker of not-English as a native language, I understand neither "probation" nor "induction", so no difference for me :P
[21:10] <AlanBell> it is more of an introductory/training period
[21:10] <Pici> probationary period makes sense too though
[21:10] <AlanBell> theadmin: well that would be probation
[21:11] <Tm_T> theadmin: we don't do any tests
[21:11] <funkyHat> probation makes sense but I agree it does sound somewhat negative. I would prefer induction
[21:11] <EvilResistance> theadmin:  perhaps "observation period"?  if you want to get rid of the potential condescending nature of the word "probation"
[21:11] <theadmin> EvilResistance: That actually sounds good
[21:11] <Tm_T> introduction?
[21:11] <theadmin> That too
[21:11] <theadmin> Actually much a wide topic xD
[21:11] <Tm_T> I did read induction first as introduction
[21:11] <theadmin> Could call it anything
[21:12] <LjL> I do suspect it originally was intended as a period when you not only train the op, but also decide whether they're quite ready to be an op. Not sure that has ever been spelled out explicitly, but...
[21:13] <AlanBell> LjL: well to me "induction" emphasises training and introductory stuff, "probation" emphasises observation and testing and the possible failing to be accepted
[21:13] <AlanBell> when that isn't really what we want to be doing, we want people to be helped to be good ops
[21:14] <Pici> Its a hand-holding period. I think thats more that just observation.
[21:14] <AlanBell> yes
[21:14] <theadmin> I still wish we'd use something which'd be obvious to non-native speakers *without* google translate :D
[21:15] <theadmin> "induction" is not a word you hear often
[21:15] <Myrtti> apart from induction stoves
[21:15] <Myrtti> :-|
[21:15] <Tm_T> ^
[21:15] <AlanBell> ok, it is pretty standard terminology in the UK, I don't know what it is called in other countries when you get a job
[21:16] <oCean> probation
[21:16] <EvilResistance> AlanBell:  probationary or introductory period
[21:16] <Tm_T> probation here atleast
[21:16] <LjL> "introductory period" sounds good to me
[21:17] <AlanBell> yeah, that is OK
[21:17] <oCean> yep, sounds fine
[21:17] <Tm_T> I'll slip to my other duties, bye all
[21:17] <theadmin> Sounds good although doesn't point out the "may get rejected" part
[21:18] <AlanBell> yeah, I don't think we need to point that out quite so loudly :)
[21:18] <Pici> I'm sure if the situation comes to that the wording of the period will be the least of our worries.
[21:18] <Myrtti> in theory all of us could be demoted if we decide to act up and burn the channel with us
[21:18] <AlanBell> indeed, we can deal with those kind of situations, I am just seeking to use more positive language
[21:19] <AlanBell> Myrtti: you could indeed ;)
[21:19] <elky> "support may be withdrawn"
[21:19] <LjL> Yeah but on the other hand, if it's clear that the possibility exists especially during that period, maybe it'll make it easier if it does happen, I don't know
[21:19] <funkyHat> Ok, I'm happy with introductory perido too
[21:19] <theadmin> Yeah. Let's have that :)
[21:19] <AlanBell> ok, I think a vote is in order
[21:20] <AlanBell> #voters Pici AlanBell funkyHat
[21:20] <meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici funkyHat
[21:20] <AlanBell> #vote change op recruitment terminology from "probation" to "introductory period"
[21:20] <meetingology> Please vote on: change op recruitment terminology from "probation" to "introductory period"
[21:20] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[21:20] <Pici> +1
[21:20] <AlanBell> +1
[21:20] <meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
[21:20] <meetingology> +1 received from Pici
[21:20] <theadmin> +1
[21:20] <funkyHat> +1
[21:20] <meetingology> +1 received from funkyHat
[21:20] <AlanBell> #endvote
[21:20] <meetingology> Voting ended on: change op recruitment terminology from "probation" to "introductory period"
[21:20] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[21:20] <meetingology> Motion carried
[21:20] <Pici> theadmin: you're not funkyHat!
[21:20] <oCean> AlanBell: I would not mind moving the other agenda items to next meeting..
[21:21] <AlanBell> oCean: great, I was going to suggest that
[21:21]  * Pici too
[21:21] <theadmin> Pici: Indeed I'm not... Sorry, didn't realize I may not cast a vote
[21:21] <AlanBell> oCean: I will mention them in the minutes mail so people see them before the next one
[21:21] <oCean> great
[21:21] <AlanBell> theadmin: don't worry its fine, the bot is clever like that and ignored you
[21:21] <Pici> theadmin: its fine :P
[21:21] <AlanBell> next meeting is on Sunday the something or other at 6PM
[21:22] <funkyHat> I've been impersonated before, and I'll be impersonated again ;)
[21:22] <oCean> thanks all o/
[21:22] <EvilResistance> funkyHat:  it happens to all of us :P
[21:22] <AlanBell> Sunday 26th I think
[21:22] <AlanBell> #endmeeting
[21:22] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  9 21:22:27 2012 UTC.
[21:22] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-09-20.02.moin.txt
[21:22] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-09-20.02.html
[21:22] <theadmin> Just to make sure, I may sit here without being a part of the Council? Or am I just so lucky to sit through a whole meeting without getting banned? :D
[21:22] <AlanBell> theadmin: yes, it is a whole team meeting
[21:22] <Pici> theadmin: our meetings are open to everyone.
[21:22] <AlanBell> just the council vote on things
[21:22] <theadmin> All I want is to help out as much as I can so
[21:22] <theadmin> Ah, great
[21:22] <EvilResistance> as do I, and i'm not a member of the council xD
[21:22] <AlanBell> but we want opinions and advice from everyone
[21:23] <funkyHat> ^this
[21:23] <Pici> theadmin: You may want to consider hanging out in #ubuntu-irc too, its not *that* busy of a channel, but there are some miscellaneous IRC things mentioned in there every few days.
[21:23] <EvilResistance> Pici:  so #ubuntu-irc is a lurking-allowed zone?
[21:23] <theadmin> :) I'm glad the team is so open then... Wish they were like that with the distro itself. Doubt that many would vote on "switch to unity"..
[21:23] <theadmin> lol
[21:23] <EvilResistance> i always assumed it wasnt
[21:24] <theadmin> EvilResistance: #ubuntu-ops isn't
[21:24] <theadmin> EvilResistance: -irc is
[21:24] <AlanBell> lurking is totally allowed there
[21:24] <EvilResistance> well that i know, theadmin :P
[21:24] <EvilResistance> AlanBell:  then i just found another channel to stay perpetually connected to :P
[21:25] <theadmin> Heh, I usually /part if I can't keep track of the channel... Long as I have no real duties in the channel
[21:27] <Unit193> They{ll generally listen to you in the meeting even if they think you are weird (Just look this direction!)
[21:28] <theadmin> The only weird thing is the word "weird"... i before e >.<
[21:28] <theadmin> Other than that nothing is :P
[21:29] <funkyHat> I dunno, Unit193 is pretty weird.
[21:31] <pangolin> That is how we like him
[21:31] <pangolin> aka medium rare
[21:32] <theadmin> heheh
[21:39] <theadmin> Oh well no point in just idling here.