[00:06] <weblife> sarnold: looks like you were right.  It was the socket.  HAdn't opened yet
[00:07] <sarnold> weblife: I wonder if there's a good / lightweight way to wait until a socket is opened..
[00:08] <sarnold> ideally, 'service' wouldn't return until the mongo server is actually running. but if it daemonizes, the child will return very nearly immediately, and the grandchild may not yet be ready..
[00:09] <weblife> I just seperated it into its own function and threw it a little later in the install hook.  I am sure there is something else I could do but I am good with throwing the function later
[00:13] <weblife> This charm inits a mongodb instance of its own if there is no waiting instance.  Now i can focus on exporting the database if a mongodb instance is added.
[01:00] <jrwren> juju destroy-environment is my favorite command :)  it reminds me of kill -9 1
[01:01] <sarnold> hehe :)
[01:32] <davecheney> gary_poster: thank you thank you thank you for juju-gui-74
[01:55] <jrwren> trying this: https://juju.ubuntu.com/get-started/local/
[01:55] <jrwren> juju is trying to connect to lcoal mongo on 37017 but mongo is listening on 27017 where is the right place to change it?
[02:01] <thumper> jrwren: which version are you using? 1.12? or 1.13.2?
[02:02] <thumper> jrwren: also, do you have root-dir specified in environments.yaml for the local provider?  if you do, comment it out
[02:02] <thumper> known bug fixed in the dev version
[02:03] <thumper> sudo juju destroy-environment
[02:03] <thumper> and try again
[02:13] <jrwren> 1.12
[02:13] <jrwren> no root-dir set
[02:13] <jrwren> i just changed mongodb.conf to listen on 37017 now bootstrap just hangs at opening state mongo.
[02:14] <jrwren> i don't get connection failed messages like I did before though :(
[02:15] <jrwren> oh... juju-db-$USER-local service.
[02:20] <jrwren> apparently I was impatient on waiting for mongo local to start
[03:13] <thumper> jrwren: I found on my SSD, mongodb starts up in about 2 seconds
[03:13] <thumper> but on another's normal laptop, took upto 30s
[03:13] <thumper> I was killing the bootstrap thinking it was a bug and hung
[03:13] <thumper> but no...
[03:18] <sarnold> 30s! ouch.
[03:41] <hazmat> thumper, this is with no prealloc option?
[04:03] <thumper> hazmat: NFI
[04:09] <davecheney> thumper: hazmat we found the same thing on azure
[04:10] <davecheney> hazmat: we arelady use no-prealloc
[04:10] <davecheney> maybe we're doing it wrong
[04:10]  * davecheney reaises an issue
[04:10]  * davecheney lags
[04:12] <davecheney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1218176
[04:12] <_mup_> Bug #1218176: cmd/jujud: bootstrap may not properly configured mongodb to avoid preallocation <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1218176>
[04:32] <kvt> davecheney azure has pretty slow disks.. possibly we also need --smallfiles
[04:32] <davecheney> kvt: the idea is it shouldn't allocate anything
[04:33] <davecheney> just move the file pointer to the end of the file, write a zero, and close the file
[04:33] <davecheney> i'd be quite confident that this is (yet another) mongo bug
[04:35] <kvt> davecheney possibly but i think it does need both
[04:35] <kvt> davecheney prealloc is against db file stores (if the fs supports it will do sparse allocation)
[04:35] <kvt> the smallfiles also adjusts the journal file size
[04:35] <davecheney> kvt: it's your bug if you want it
[04:35] <davecheney> i was going to flick it to my friends at 10gen and ask for advice
[04:36]  * kvt makes some notes
[04:37] <kvt> hmm.. from the bug it looks like we're already passing smallfiles
[04:55] <davecheney> yes
[04:55] <davecheney> i wonder if they are mutually exclusive
[05:51] <melmoth__> anyone understand what does the hacluster's charm's corosync_pcm_ver is for ?
[05:51] <melmoth__> the install hook does not seems to change the way in install things, just the way it start them based on the value of this conf
[08:53] <jaywink> hi, just installed stable juju-core, signed up to aws and bootstrapped. It didn't give any errors and I can see a running instance with AWS console. juju status however says nothing there. But new bootstrap attempt says there is an instance, see: http://pastebin.com/c8S7sfTD
[08:53] <jaywink> any ideas?
[09:10] <noodles775> jaywink: That sounds like the bootstrap instance hasn't gotten to the correct state. Does the AWS console tell you that everything is fine with the instance?
[09:11] <noodles775> jaywink: either way, a more consistent error message there would be helpful. I'll create a bug for it, unless you're already doing so?
[09:12] <jaywink> yeah afaik, first time with juju. same happened with local, bootstrap went fine, then said no instances.. unfortunately the verbose flag didn't bring any more errors than was in the pastebin
[09:12] <jaywink> I ended up already resetting everything and upgrading to devel ppa and now everything works, locally at least
[09:13] <jaywink> so not quite sure what to say in a bug :( should have initially bootstrapped the amazon instance with -v I guess
[09:15] <noodles775> jaywink: heh, sorry - I meant that juju providing a more consistent error message would be helpful :)
[09:17] <jaywink> noodles775, there is this, after I upgraded, before I did an rm -rf .juju and terminated the AWS instance, I ran juju stat: http://pastebin.com/eYWK9SqR .. should I file that as a bug?
[09:20] <noodles775> jaywink: I wouldn't think so - it looks like there's confusion over what environment (ec2) you're bootstrapped with. The earlier issue you had in stable is more worrying to me. I'll install stable and see if I can reproduce.
[09:22] <mgz> jaywink, noodles775: if bootstrap gives you an instance, but juju doesn't work, it's worth checking the console log/sshing in and looking at /var/log to find the underlying issue
[09:22] <jaywink> mgz, sorry, terminated the instance already - was a bit hasty I know .. :(
[09:24] <noodles775> mgz: here's what jaywink pasted before you joined: http://pastebin.com/c8S7sfTD
[09:27] <noodles775> jaywink: actually, your last paste confuses me a bit. It looks like you'd first had the old (python version) of juju installed (0.7), which isn't what you should have had from stable?
[09:28] <noodles775> jaywink: Now you should have the new version (juju-core), but I think you'll find that removing the dev PPA and just installing 'juju-core' with from stable should work (https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/getting-started.html )
[09:29] <mgz> thanks noodles775
[09:29] <jaywink> hmm good point, it's possible I installed some version long time ago without trying it - is juju-core a new package after that?
[09:30] <noodles775> jaywink: Yeah, you need juju-core instead of juju (confusing I know :/ ).
[09:30] <jaywink> ok sorry guys for taking your time, should have cleaned up :) I wonder though when I activated juju/stable repo juju wasn't updated, but when I hit devel ppa it was updated
[09:31] <jaywink> could have been me though, I followed the tutorial and run update && install as there .. I guess a dist-upgrade should have been done too
[09:32] <noodles775> jaywink: which tutorial? It may need updating (if it asked you to do 'apt-get install juju' instead of 'apt-get install juju-core'.
[09:33] <noodles775> jaywink: https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/getting-started.html has the right info, afaict.
[09:35] <jaywink> yes it was juju-core, but since I had an old juju installed I guess I should have done upgrade too. Unless installing juju-core should have automatically done that
[10:27] <mthaddon> if I have two juju-core environments on the same provider, would/should they use the same public-bucket-url ?
[10:28] <mthaddon> specifically the AUTH_* part
[10:28] <mgz> mthaddon: potentially
[10:29] <mthaddon> mgz: what's the implications of sharing that amongst juju envs?
[10:29] <mgz> one of the main reasons for providing that config was so that someone else could upload the tools, then you could use those without remirroring from aws yourself
[10:30] <mgz> we're trying to move towards everyone using simplestreams, and cloud providers putting the simplestreams link in their identity service,
[10:30] <mthaddon> mgz: ah cool - so yeah, it sounds like in this case I do want to do that - as long as the control-bucket and admin-secret is unique per env things are okay, right?
[10:30] <mgz> yup.
[10:30] <mthaddon> thanks
[10:33] <mthaddon> mgz: hmm, I get https://pastebin.canonical.com/96563/
[10:36] <jaywink> sigh ... really stuck with bootstrapping successfully to local .. everything goes fine but services pending forever, over an hour. tried many times. juju debug-log just says "ssh: connect to host <IP_ADDRESS> port 22: Connection refused" :P
[10:38] <mthaddon> mgz: adding --upload-tools seems to do the trick (doesn't error anyway, will check status shortly)
[10:39] <mgz> mthaddon: geh, the list is breaking things
[10:39] <mgz> so, you don't want --upload-tools
[10:39] <mgz> you want `juju sync-tools` probably
[10:39] <mthaddon> mgz: can I undo --upload-tools?
[10:39] <mgz> unless you're really trying to use a locally built trunk version of juju for testing rather than a stable release
[10:39] <mgz> mthaddon: you can just nuke the container
[10:40] <mthaddon> mgz: we're not using a stable release because we need fixes from trunk - we're using 1.13.2-1~1670 (packaged)
[10:40] <mgz> mthaddon: the other option here is to generate a simplestreams file in one container which references the tools, and point at that. I'm not sure we have good instructions on how to do this yet though.
[10:42] <mgz> mthaddon: you may want `juju sync-tools --source DIR` then
[10:42] <mthaddon> what's DIR?
[10:42] <mgz> the directory where you have the 1.13.2-1~1670 binaries
[10:42] <mthaddon> and will that overwrite what's there now, or do I need to nuke the container first?
[10:43] <mgz> nuke it to be safe, `swift delete CONTAINER` should do it
[10:44] <mthaddon> what's the problem with having done --upload-tools? just want to make sure I understand what's going on here
[10:45] <mthaddon> (things seem to be working as expected in terms of the bootstrap node now responding to juju status okay)
[10:45] <mgz> --upload-tools is a development hack
[10:46] <mgz> what it does, mostly, is build the copy of juju in your local directory, and upload that
[10:47] <mgz> but, confusingly, it also currently has a hack that searches path for a 'jujud' binary
[10:47] <mthaddon> in my case /usr/lib/juju-1.13.2/bin/jujud
[10:48] <mgz> which in this particular case, might do the same as using sync-tools there, but generally just breaks things in really confusing ways if you get in the habit of using it
[10:49] <mthaddon> breaks what kind of things? we've been doing --upload-tools for our envs so far and have production services running in them, so would like to know if we have a booby trap waiting for us
[10:49] <mgz> well, the most likely breakage is we just remove that bit of code, so then it starts complaining about not having the juju-core source and go compiler
[10:50] <mgz> the breakage devs normally hit is having multiple versions of juju around, and getting the wrong one uploaded
[10:50] <mthaddon> ok, so the --upload-tools command itself might break, but if it succeeds the env is okay
[10:51] <mgz> only if you're on a clean machine with only one jujud around
[10:51] <mgz> which should mostly be the case for you guys, but is always breaking us :)
[10:51] <mthaddon> we deploy from one server which will only ever have one version of juju-core installed (as far as I can tell)
[10:52] <mthaddon> thanks for the help
[10:54] <mgz> `juju sync-tools --source `which juju`` is the sane-ish equivalent, if you can start using that instead
[10:57] <mthaddon> mgz: error: unable to select source: specified source path is not a directory: /usr/lib/juju-1.13.2/bin/juju - dirname $(which juju) then says "no tools available"
[10:57] <mthaddon> ls /usr/lib/juju-1.13.2/bin
[10:57] <mthaddon> juju  jujud  juju-metadata
[10:59] <mgz> er... yes, you're better at shell than I :)
[10:59] <mthaddon> mgz: right, but now I'm getting "no tools available"
[10:59] <mgz> I'll investigate what's up and get back to you
[10:59] <mthaddon> cool, thanks
[11:02] <jaywink> anyone know why juju debug-log (and juju ssh 0) give "ssh: connect to host <IP_ADDRESS> port 22: Connection refused" after a successful local bootstrap? already tried shutting down ufw ... any tips would be greatly welcome .. running juju-core stable on raring
[11:24] <X-warrior> What is wrong with my configs file? http://pastebin.com/XeSKXzjb when I try to use, I get "command failed: unknown option "git-key"
[12:25] <X-warrior> Oh, I just find that the config.yaml should have options: on begin of it. So I updated it to http://pastebin.com/1jFpW26H but still doesn't work :S
[13:46] <X-warrior> what user does run the hooks?
[13:47] <marcoceppi> X-warrior: root
[13:48] <jasondotstar> noob here. I'm using ec2. is there a guide to ensuring that I'm using the free tier only?
[13:49] <jasondotstar> afraid i might see some hidden charges
[13:49] <jasondotstar> :-/
[13:49] <marcoceppi> jasondotstar: by default you get small instances
[13:50] <jasondotstar> marcoceppi as i understand, t1.micro is the free tier
[13:50] <marcoceppi> if you're using Ubuntu as you desktop though you can try juju using the local provider
[13:51] <marcoceppi> jasondotstar: you get 700 hours a month of free t1.micro on was. however they are not recommended because they are severely underpowered. there is a way to use them though
[13:53] <jasondotstar> marcoceppi ok. so if I simply want to develop charms and use juju to test them, i can use the local provider, which i assume means the charms deploy to my own nodes instead of a specific cloud provider?
[13:54] <marcoceppi> jasondotstar: you can run `juju bootstrap --constraints "cpu-power=0 cpu-cores=0 men=128"` to get micros with juju. however for developing you can use local provider which turns your machine in to a cloud using LXC
[13:54] <marcoceppi> mem*
[13:54] <marcoceppi> and local provider is free :)
[13:56] <jasondotstar> marcoceppi right. found this: http://askubuntu.com/questions/65359/how-do-i-configure-juju-for-local-usage
[13:56] <jasondotstar> marcoceppi seems like a decent place to start.
[14:11] <X-warrior> I'm creating my hooks and there is some code that will be the same on more then one file, I would like to create a third script where I add this code. Should I add it to a subfolder inside hooks? Is there any specific name? Or can I just pick any one?
[14:23] <marcoceppi> X-warrior: there's no real convention yet, we recommend putting it in a lib directory in the root of the charm (leaving just hooks to be in the hooks directory)
[14:23] <marcoceppi> but having common code shared via a common location (lib, etc) is a great way and one we consider a best practice for charms
[15:00] <kurt_> Hi All - anyone know why I would get "connection refused" from juju status, but can ssh to juju node direct just fine?
[15:00] <kurt_> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6040584/
[15:00] <kurt_> this is juju 1.12
[15:01] <mhall119> smoser: arosales: can you guys start filling in your track summary highlights for today's closing session: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-track-summaries
[15:02] <arosales> mhall119, will do. what time does it need to be complete?
[15:02] <smoser> arosales, its for http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21888/track-summaries/
[15:02] <smoser> (19:00 UTC)
[15:03] <smoser> jamespage, if you want to help, that'd be good too.
[15:03] <mhall119> arosales: the summary session is at 1900
[15:03]  * smoser didn't think about this.
[15:03] <arosales> mhall119, is the plan to have smoser and I present our respective tracks
[15:03] <mhall119> also we'll need one of you to be on the hangout
[15:03] <jamespage> smoser, I'll try to
[15:03] <X-warrior`> marcoceppi: nice. so if I would like to execute it from hook, could I execute 'sh ../lib/file' or does the hook execute from another 'context'?
[15:03] <arosales> smoser, jamespage: I'll coordinate with you on who does the presenting.
[15:04] <arosales> mhall119, thanks for the link
[15:04] <marcoceppi> X-warrior`: hooks are executed from $CHARM_DIR which is the root of the directory
[15:04] <marcoceppi> so you'd just `sh lib/file`
[15:04] <X-warrior`> oh sweet
[15:04] <X-warrior`> :D
[15:26] <arosales> kirkland, hazmat, gary_poster, would love to hear from you guy any really anyone on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21899/servercloud-s-juju-new-user-ux/
[15:27] <arosales> s/guy any/guys and
[15:28] <arosales> If anyone has any feedback on getting started with Juju, from the web site to charm authoring please join the uds session: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21899/servercloud-s-juju-new-user-ux/
[15:30] <arosales> we'll post the hangout url in #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 channel, hope to see some folks there
[15:34] <gary_poster> arosales, how do I join hangout?
[15:35] <arosales> gary_poster, be in  #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 and i'll post the hangout url shortly
[15:36] <gary_poster> cool arosales thx, there now
[15:36] <arosales> gary_poster, thank you
[16:20] <X-warrior`> Is it normal to bootstrap logging goes up to 3.3gb of logs in less then a week?
[16:55] <sarnold> X-warrior`: I do recall seeing something that said logs were never rotated and running out of disk space was a real problem. I don't know if that's been addressed yet.
[16:55] <X-warrior`> sarnold: uhmm
[17:38] <weblife> Juan Negron  in here?
[17:42] <jamespage> negronjl, ^^
[17:42] <weblife> negronjl: I am not that good at reading python.  Have you made a option for mongorestore in the mongodb charm?
[17:42] <weblife> jamespage:  thanks I just looked him up on launchpad
[17:52] <mhall119> jamespage: smoser: arosales: which of you is going to give the cloud track summary today?
[17:52] <weblife> negronjl: I am trying to see if I could send a mongodump on a joined relationship to the mongodb instance.  My charm runs its spins up its own mongodb service until one has joined.  I also want to send mongodump files over periodically to my charm in case the mongodb instance crashes.  All of this is to minimize instances for the sake of cash savings.
[17:52] <arosales> mhall119, I am
[17:52] <mhall119> thanks arosales
[17:53] <arosales> mhall119, sure, np.
[17:53]  * smoser goes to sendbeertoarosales.com
[17:53] <arosales> smoser, +1 and I owe you a few too
[17:54] <weblife> lol
[17:54] <kurt_> That was a great session "Amazing First 30 min Juju Experience" - good discussion between you guys
[17:55] <marcoceppi> weblife: he's in Japan ATM, might not reply right away
[17:57] <weblife> marcoceppi> Thanks I will email him
[18:51] <adam_g> how do i sync in juju-core tools into a firewalled MAAS cluster?
[19:01] <jcastro> 2 new bounties on AU for those who can answer these questions
[19:01] <jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/335720/agent-state-info-hook-failed-config-changed-deploy-wordpress-using-juju
[19:02] <jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/337075/how-can-i-expose-icmp-ports-in-a-hook
[20:17] <kurt_> Any idea why I cannot "juju ssh 0" in 1.12?  "juju status" also gives "connection refused" Time is in sync, but in UTC on charm node.  This worked previously.  verbose output: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6041608/
[20:18] <kurt_> And yes, I should have the right mongodb installed
[20:41] <weblife> kurt: I maybe you missing '\'  "juju ssh  \0"
[20:41] <weblife> thats what i have to do when I ssh into bootstrap
[20:43] <weblife> or perhaps your bootstrap failed
[20:44] <marcoceppi> weblife: if you can't get status to give you back information, juju ssh won't work (it has to query juju status to get the address for the 0 machine)
[20:45] <marcoceppi> err kurt_ ^
[20:45] <kurt_> marcoceppi: I was just putting this all in to ask ubuntu
[20:45] <kurt_> do you have an idea already?
[20:46] <marcoceppi> kurt_: nope, stick it in ask ubuntu and I can take a look at it later
[20:46] <weblife> marcoceppi:  yeah bad help idea.  Read the last part of his message after I responded
[20:46] <kurt_> Ok
[20:46] <marcoceppi> kurt_: but it sounds like either you can't reach that ip address (can you ping it?), or mongodb didn't start up
[20:46] <marcoceppi> kurt_: you can try to just `ssh<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:47] <marcoceppi> some more stuff to try to ask ubuntu
[20:47] <kurt_> marcoceppi: that works fine
[20:48] <kurt_> marcoceppi: are you aware of any bugs around mongodb not starting correctly on node reboot?
[20:48] <marcoceppi> kurt_: can you check the two upstart jobs, they start with juju-, are running (`initctl list | grep juju`)
[20:48] <marcoceppi> kurt_: it's possible
[20:49] <kurt_> is this what you are referring to? juju-db stop/waiting
[20:52] <marcoceppi> kurt_: yeah, start that
[20:53] <marcoceppi> there should be another job, I think, that starts with juju
[20:53]  * marcoceppi checks
[20:53] <kurt_> uh oh
[20:53] <kurt_> marcoceppi: Thu Aug 29 20:52:56 [initandlisten] ERROR: Insufficient free space for journal files
[20:53] <marcoceppi> kurt_: df -h should help you out :)
[20:53] <kurt_> yeah, just did that
[20:53] <kurt_> how much space does the node need?? LOL
[20:53] <marcoceppi> kurt_: out of disk space?
[20:54] <kurt_> si
[20:54] <marcoceppi> kurt_: this might be a problem with logs not rotating
[20:54] <kurt_> '/dev/sda1        18G   17G     0 100% /'
[20:54] <marcoceppi> if you track down the large files, and they're juju related, please open a bug
[20:54] <marcoceppi> we had an issue like this back in juju 0.7 where it just would eat disk space via logs not being rotated
[20:54] <marcoceppi> I figured this was fixed, but it might not be yet
[20:55] <marcoceppi> kurt_: to answer your question, yes nodes are designed to survive reboot
[20:55] <kurt_> marcoceppi: thanks.
[20:55] <kurt_> -rw-r-----  1 syslog adm<PHONE_NUMBER>6 Aug 29 20:55 all-machines.log
[20:56] <kurt_> :D
[20:56] <kurt_> that's 12 gigs of space
[20:56] <kurt_> wtf
[20:57] <kurt_> ROFL
[20:57] <jcastro> stay classy juju logger!
[20:57] <kurt_> sorry sir
[20:58] <jcastro> this feels like a bug
[20:58] <jcastro> it should never do that crap
[20:58] <kurt_> I will log it
[20:58] <kurt_> file a bug on it
[20:58] <kurt_> #2 today for me
[20:58] <kurt_> I'm on a roll
[20:58] <jcastro> \o/
[20:59] <jcastro> keep em coming
[20:59] <kurt_> Dave is going to get to know my name
[21:00] <jcastro> mail me your tshirt size and address, it's about time we send you something<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:04] <weblife> lol. Stay classy
[21:05] <kurt_> Ok, Bug #1218616 filed for your viewing pleasure.
[21:05] <_mup_> Bug #1218616: all-machines.log is oversized on juju node <juju-core> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1218616>
[21:12] <weblife> jcastro: I would like to see a charms school that focuses more on relationships. Just FYI.
[21:17] <weblife> jcastro: Of course I just started watching the Best Practices video.  It sounds like this might be covered.
[21:30] <kurt_> I was just thinking of what web life was thinking about in a different way
[21:31] <kurt_> juju-gui should have a way to show how its deployed
[21:32] <kurt_> with juju-1.x - since I can deploy charms/services on same node, the gui should show me in logical form all services running on a node and how they are related
[21:33] <kurt_> or at least give me the ability to arbitrarily draw a circle or box around particular charms
[21:39] <kurt_> Is the solution to send logging to /dev/null like the user suggests in https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1218199 ? That appears to spike the cpu to 100%
[21:39] <_mup_> Bug #1218199: [MAAS] Deploy a charm into machine 0 = log loop <debug-log> <maas> <merge> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1218199>
[23:41] <weblife> if I am running "mongodb-10gen"(The mongodb recommended deb package)  will this be  problem for juju-local?
[23:42] <thumper> maybe
[23:42] <thumper> juju needs an ssl enabled mongodb
[23:42] <thumper> it will fail to connect if this isn't enabled
[23:49] <jcastro> weblife: for sure we can do that.


[00:44] <wallyworld_> poolie: dumb question. bzr branch stacking is recursive right? A stacked on B which is stacked on C etc
[00:53] <spiv> wallyworld_: yes
[00:54] <wallyworld_> spiv: thanks
[00:54] <wallyworld_> spiv: how's google?
[00:57] <spiv> Pretty good!  Commuting and working in an actual office has taken a bit of getting used to, though.
[00:58] <spiv> But the office has better espresso machines than I have at home :)
[00:58] <wallyworld_> spiv: i just bought a new dual boiler espresso machine. but i imagine google's would be better! what are you working on?
[01:27] <spm> o/ spiv
[01:36] <spiv> wallyworld_: This: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/places/
[01:37]  * wallyworld_ looks
[01:37] <spiv> Hi spm
[01:39] <wallyworld_> looks interesting. of course, now you have an excuse to go and get a Samsung Galaxy Note or other cool smartphone for "work" purposes :-)
[07:36] <vila> hi all !
[07:47] <fullermd> Eh?  You're not allowed to show up before breakfast...
[07:50] <vila> yeah. I took my breakfast
[07:55] <fullermd> I haven't, though.
[08:14] <Riddell> happy Wednesday
[08:15] <vila> Riddell: thanks ! Happy morning to you !
[08:29] <fullermd> vila: OK, now you can show up   :p
[08:30] <vila> hehe, file and fixed a bug in the mean time ;)
[08:30] <vila> filed
[08:30] <fullermd> Shoot, that's nothing.  I've created TWO!
[08:30] <vila> you win :)
[09:12] <vila> jelmer_: ping, 2.4.0 on jubany ? I've lost track of progress there, care to refresh ?
[09:13] <vila> jelmer_: refresh *my memory*
[09:58] <jelmer_> vila: there's an open rt in the queue
[10:43] <fullermd> jelmer_: So, I got a little confused in the colo discussions.  Is this expecting to use a new format or not?
[10:45] <jelmer_> fullermd: eventually, no. it's expecting to be an addition to 2a
[10:48] <fullermd> Ah.
[11:04] <jelmer_> fullermd: in the mean time, we might do the development in a separate format so we can be sure that whatever changes we make to 2a are correct
[13:14] <jelmer_> Riddell: hi
[13:14] <jelmer_> Riddell: do you perhaps know what this error is about? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/684394/
[13:15] <Riddell> hmm, it doesn't think it has expired
[13:17] <Riddell> jelmer_: what does  gpg --list-key 4F8D1513  give you?
[13:17] <jelmer_> Riddell: this is on one of the buildds
[13:18] <jelmer_> Riddell: I've recently added python-gpgme to the build deps so we can run the gpg tests, and this is the only remaining failing test
[13:20] <Riddell> SIGNATURE_KEY_MISSING = 1   so it thinks the key doesn't exist
[13:20] <Riddell> but it should be the expired_key in bzrlib/tests/test_gpg.py
[13:21] <Riddell> that test doesn't have a self.import_keys()  so maybe that's what is missing
[13:23] <jelmer_> I can reproduce the issue on my local machine with a different account (without writable homedir and missing ~/.gpg), although it gives (2, None) there rather than (1, u'4F...')
[13:23]  * jelmer_ tries
[13:25] <Riddell> that fixes it for me, testing with a new user
[13:26] <jelmer_> Riddell: What if that users' ~/.gpg doesn't exist and isn't writable?
[13:26] <Riddell> if it doesn't exist then gpgme will make it, but if it's not writable I don't know but I guess something will fail
[13:27] <jelmer_> Riddell: we shouldn't really be touching anything out of the test directory when running the tests; can we perhaps override the home directory gpgme uses?
[13:27] <Riddell> no, I think gpg is pretty stuck on ~/.gnupg
[13:28] <Riddell> I couldn't find any way to change it when I looked
[13:29] <jelmer_> Riddell: it looks like gpgme has a way to set the home directory, but I guess pygpgme might not expose it
[13:29] <jelmer_> Riddell: I'll file a bug against bzr/pygpgme
[13:30] <jelmer_> Riddell: Can you propose that self.import_keys() fix, or should I?
[13:30] <Riddell> jelmer_: I'll do it
[13:31] <jelmer_> Riddell: thanks
[13:32] <jelmer_> Riddell: it looks like gpgme should honor the GNUPGHOME environment variable
[13:32]  * jelmer_ patch0rz
[15:36] <Riddell> jelmer_: bzr-explorer 1.2.1 seems to be in its debian packaging reponsitory but not in debian, are you able to upload it?
[15:48] <jelmer_> Riddell: sure, one sec
[15:49] <jelmer_> Riddell: do you mean 0.21.1-1 ?
[15:49] <Riddell> jelmer_: bzr-explorer (not qbzr)
[15:50] <Riddell> although qbzr could do with the upgrade too I see
[15:50] <jelmer_> Riddell: I'll have a look at aboth
[15:50] <jelmer_> s/a//
[20:23] <jo-erlend> what do you think about using bzr to version Audacity projects?
[20:38] <jelmer> hi jo-erlend
[20:38] <jelmer> jo-erlend: I'm not too familiar with the Audacity format, is there anything in particular you think might be problematic?
[20:39] <jo-erlend> fairly large files.
[20:41] <jelmer> jo-erlend: how large is large?
[20:42] <fullermd> Well, presumably WAV's for the like, so you'd get dozens to low hundreds of megs...
[20:42] <jo-erlend> well.. A small project of a few minutes often consumes hundreds of megs. But bzr doesn't really care about the total, only the largest file?
[20:43] <jelmer> jo-erlend: yeah, the max memory usage would probably be the size of the largest times 2 or 3
[22:07] <ccxCZ> jo-erlend: if you don't need full VCS feature set, I would actually suggest rdiff-backup
[22:08] <jo-erlend> that might be something to consider, actually.
[22:58] <poolie> hi


[00:06] <kwwii> definitely
[00:06] <troy_s> kwwii: In the Ubuntu climate, that is a tricky road.  A veritable army would have a fight.
[00:07] <kwwii> or a good core of decent like-minded people who have the "right idea"
[00:07] <kwwii> if what we are trying to achieve was easy everyone would be doing it
[00:07] <troy_s> kwwii: At least the same goals doesn't hurt.  I wouldn't expect that there would be fewer arguments or artsy fartsy debates -- but nor would I think that was healthy if there wasn't.
[00:08] <troy_s> kwwii: Exactly.
[00:08] <troy_s> kwwii: In fact, _very_ few companies get it and do it.  Those that do, are in the handful of Fortune 500 members generally.
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: Hell... even the most powerful company in the world (at least a year ago) was not the 'ideal' -- MS.
[00:09] <troy_s> kwwii: I fear that a good portion of what happens in art / design land in our world is crippled by looking to other examples of operating systems, as opposed to looking to what the 'bigger picture' reveals.
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: Worse, they look to other distributions (yikes).
[00:10] <kwwii> even though MS is so big I really think that we can beat them at the game, depending on how much freedom we get to really change things
[00:10] <troy_s> kwwii: I will hand Apple full credit -- they carry on their _own_ path.
[00:10] <kwwii> we have to fight against simply changing things for stupid reasons and also against simply staying the same as everyone else because we are afraid of change
[00:11] <kwwii> it is a fine line we walk and we have to do it almost perfectly for it to work correctly or even happen at all
[00:11] <troy_s> kwwii: Beating MS isn't an issue really -- they aren't a viable 'target' in terms of art / design / presence.  Hitting that mainstream recognition as doing something innovative in design would be the ultimate accolade.
[00:11] <troy_s> kwwii: And completely +1 from me.
[00:12] <kwwii> if we do not have this figured out by hardy or hardy+1 we will simply start to loose the game, no matter what we do
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: That sums it up -- changing everything to get to exactly where we are is useless (especially if it just ends up a blue version of what we have for example)
[00:12] <kwwii> exactly
[00:12] <troy_s> kwwii: Getting it figured out is one thing, executing it is another.  It's a helluva lot of work, though granted, being the flagship tends to generate laborers faster.
[00:13] <troy_s> kwwii: As I see it, FOSS and in particular Ubuntu -- with a six month cycle, has a very real chance to set an art and design pace.
[00:13] <troy_s> kwwii: We could be on the bleeding edge of style with almost every release.
[00:13] <kwwii> I'd like to see how many really good people come onboard willing to work in one direction, until now it seems everyone wants to do their own thing or nothing
[00:14] <kwwii> but maybe I am being too negative
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: Well to be 100% fair, that isn't because of the people.  That again points towards the top of the pile.
[00:14] <kwwii> and perhaps the whole situation is because of the situation
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: Without a clear direction and clear outlines etc., people just carry on.
[00:14] <kwwii> exactly
[00:14] <troy_s> kwwii: And yes, it is damn hard to do anything that anyone out in real world land would care about if we are stuck with some of the hideous decisions on KDE / GNOMEs behalf etc.
[00:15] <kwwii> hehe, full ack
[00:15] <troy_s> kwwii: Not to mention our own 'internal' issues. (you know what one ahem ones i mean)
[00:15] <kwwii> old valdemort and his funky ideas
[00:16] <troy_s> well... read zero ideas
[00:16] <kwwii> in case of doubt, just keep doing the same as before
[00:16] <kwwii> we understand each other
[00:16] <troy_s> kwwii: I have no clue what is going on there.
[00:17] <troy_s> kwwii: Oh I understand, as I have had long discussions with yewhoshallremainnameless.
[00:17] <troy_s> kwwii: The 'cronyitus' isn't helping matters either.
[00:17] <kwwii> yeah, although that is the lesser of the evils without a new idea which really could work
[00:18] <kwwii> if we form a really good idea and it gets shot down I'll start looking for another job really quickly
[00:18] <troy_s> kwwii: Lol.
[00:18] <kwwii> as I have said before, we will either create the best stuff I have ever worked on or the last stuff I work on for this company
[00:19] <troy_s> kwwii: Well whatever.  Either that or tow the line yet one more round of 'Ubuntu -- nasty design but keeps growing!'
[00:19] <kwwii> we really have a chance to take a step forward, not doing so would be simply stupid
[00:19] <troy_s> kwwii: My two main issues right now are probably 1) style and 2) interface
[00:20] <kwwii> my biggest fear is that the decision will go to: do the same but somehow slightly different so that we can change things in the future
[00:20] <kwwii> the interface is a big problem as we need more devs to really change things
[00:20] <kwwii> and we are tied to upstream
[00:20] <troy_s> 1) in an ideal world it would be wonderful to actually capture some of the contemporary design trends in the design (after all, it is only for 6 months) of which there are say -- five 'big' trends maybe 10?
[00:20] <troy_s> 2) interface is nasty hard to dev -- pixmap engine would let a mock get done
[00:21] <kwwii> hehe, no doubt...6 months and we make the world out of it
[00:21] <troy_s> but the doing of something that moves forwards and looks good is well... just bloody hard.
[00:21] <kwwii> an icon set takes 2-3 years to get done enough to really use, and it is still not done
[00:21] <kwwii> the short cycle is a big hindrance
[00:22] <troy_s> Ubuntu should feel _elegant_ like a piece of handcrafted furniture... tango, gtk engines, etc all seem mired in this glut of heavy handed outlining.
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Icon set is overrated.
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: Hell... take Leopard for example -- they get the keystones in place and quit worrying.
[00:22] <nothlit> forget about the icon set, you can wow people regardless, look @ f7
[00:22] <kwwii> yeah, but they owned everything before hand
[00:22] <troy_s> kwwii: The tango obsession with getting every single icon done is well... flakey in my personal opinion.  It would never be done and even if it did, is it worth it?
[00:23] <troy_s> nothlit: complete +1
[00:23] <kwwii> yeah, both of you are right
[00:23] <troy_s> nothlit: By the way, diana is working at a video game company in california now.
[00:23] <kwwii> hehe, good for her
[00:23] <kwwii> she might just have more control of things now
[00:23] <troy_s> kwwii: In the end, we just look at the bigger picture and see what say, an audience member sees --
[00:24] <kwwii> the new canonical desktop dev knows the new girl at redhat
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Folders, interface icons, and say the glyphs for status.
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Red Hat is done.
[00:24] <kwwii> the toolbar icons are the most important and hardest part
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: They had their run, and they should have given the keys to Diana.
[00:24] <darkmatter> troy_s: lol. the whole "give me two crayons, one light, one dark, and I'll make ye icons!" tango thing is infesting the ffx3 nightlies too
[00:24] <kwwii> a lot of those metaphors are really hard to change without people complaining
[00:24] <troy_s> kwwii: Well, and I say it again, isn't a metaphor dependent on culture / context/ etc?
[00:25] <troy_s> kwwii: There is this idea that because Apple and MS use the sames, that we should.
[00:25] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely and everyone thinks they can have their say
[00:25] <troy_s> kwwii: It is yet another area that eventually a project such as Ubuntu could have fully customized versions for each dependent on culture.
[00:25] <kwwii> a lot of it is listening to the right people and ignorning the wrong people without being wrong :-)
[00:25] <troy_s> kwwii: MS and Apple probably _don't_ because they don't have the resources.
[00:26] <kwwii> anyway...1:30 here almost...time for a movie and then sleep
[00:26] <kwwii> troy_s: definitely ture
[00:26] <kwwii> true
[00:26] <troy_s> (sounds silly, but getting a true 'cultural feeling' is something that perhaps only Ubuntu or like project could do.)
[00:26] <troy_s> ok... sleepy time.
[00:26]  * Toma- downloaded Fedora 7 Live just to experience the artwork
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: In the interest of not falling off the map
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: Perhaps bzr branches are a good place to start -- just make a decision and roll wth it
[00:26] <troy_s> kwwii: For example, the 3d etched glyphs
[00:26] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, probably a really good idea
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: You could probably start a bzr branch and get a shitload pooped out with help.
[00:27] <kwwii> it would give us the chance to make more last-minute-ish decisions
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: Myself and a few were able to palettize the entire tango icon set in a few hours.
[00:27] <troy_s> kwwii: I can only imagine that getting SVGs etched would be quite easy
[00:27] <kwwii> yeah, if we can get everyone working in one direction
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... 3D from Top/ Topleft light?  SVG only.  XXX resolution.  yyy grey.  highlight zzz shadow aaa.
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: ?
[00:28] <troy_s> kwwii: If need be, add colours for the radar etc in about an hour to existing glyphs.
[00:28] <kwwii> yeah, defining it is half the problem, getting people to follow the rules and even be interested in it is the hard part
[00:28] <troy_s> (assuming colour / action comes down the pipe at some point)
[00:29] <troy_s> kwwii: Honestly, if the rules are there people will follow.  Bzr is great that way -- just merge the ones that work.
[00:29] <troy_s> lol
[00:29] <troy_s> the others are moot.
[00:29] <troy_s> in fact,
[00:29] <troy_s> as a starting point,
[00:29] <troy_s> the shapes are all already in tango in svg format.
[00:29] <troy_s> just pick the basic shape, fill, etc.
[00:29] <kwwii> yeah, you are probably right
[00:29] <troy_s> a big one might be the window decoration.  THAT one is a damn hard thing to figure out what is ... distinct and elegant.
[00:30] <troy_s> did you ever see bvc's noir?
[00:30] <kwwii> nope
[00:30] <troy_s> (not a big fan of black on the windows)
[00:30] <troy_s> let me see if i can find the link.
[00:30] <troy_s> he used oval buttons
[00:30] <troy_s> and well... they were damn distinct and quite interesting.
[00:30] <troy_s> hold tight for a second
[00:31] <troy_s> http://www.guistyles.com/wp-gallery/Noir.png
[00:31] <troy_s> now ignore the black
[00:31] <troy_s> (lol)
[00:31] <troy_s> look at the lowest right one.
[00:31] <troy_s> lowest right two
[00:31] <kwwii> yeah, using differing colors of grew to define different parts would be a great idea
[00:31] <troy_s> kwwii: See the oval?  Perhaps if we could come up with a way to get some minimize / maximize glyph?
[00:32] <kwwii> I have been thinking a lot about that recently
[00:32] <kwwii> yepp, very nice
[00:32] <troy_s> its a bundle of hard work just thinking of things that 'work'.
[00:32] <darkmatter> yay! mac rip! :O
[00:32] <troy_s> it really is.  i certainly don't profess to have any answers... so far neil patel's interface mocks were as close to good as possible.
[00:32] <troy_s> darkmatter: Options?
[00:32] <kwwii> it is even harder to get some kind of mockups done that will impress valdemort without actually getting the whole stuff done
[00:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: I find them to be away from OSX by a long way -- osx uses gems and they are round.
[00:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: Quite a different look.
[00:33] <troy_s> (the lower right ones)
[00:33] <troy_s> lol
[00:33] <troy_s> anyways,
[00:33] <troy_s> sleep on it.
[00:33] <troy_s> perhaps this week we can try and gather bits together and get something decent with regards to interface _and_ overall desktop presence.
[00:33] <troy_s> hell...
[00:34] <hbon1> oval's look hard to hit to me
[00:34] <darkmatter> troy_s: nah. 98% of the osx 3rd poarty stuff (read. themes users actually use) use the ovals. bvc is good at copying :)
[00:34] <troy_s> maybe we should just start thinking about words that the thing should communicate.
[00:34] <darkmatter> *party
[00:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well, having looked at both Leopard and Vista, those are quite distinct in the middle ground.  Vista's top notch buttons are... nasty.  Gems are done.
[00:34] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, part of it is that
[00:35] <kwwii> anyway...i am dead, see all tomorrow
[00:35] <troy_s> outs.
[00:35]  * troy_s outs as well.
[00:35] <kwwii> night man
[00:35] <kwwii> see you soon I hope
[00:35] <troy_s> night to all.
[00:35] <troy_s> who are off to bed.
[00:35] <troy_s> lol
[00:36] <troy_s> darkmatter: In the meantime, maybe mock up a series of five different buttons for a window deco?
[00:36] <troy_s> darkmatter: Surely your ocd might let you do that.
[00:36] <darkmatter> troy_s: haha. its not ocd btw
[00:37] <darkmatter> troy_s: oh.. and back to the vista buttons. that a good example of how fitts doesnt "fit"
[00:37] <darkmatter> *thats
[00:41] <nothlit> btw have you you guys seen the inkscape: inkscape mockups?
[00:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Link!?
[00:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Have you seen the ubersecret 3d box tool?:
[00:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Alt-F2 -- WOW.
[00:44] <nothlit> yes, not so secret lol
[00:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Seriously, do a window deco study.  Maybe five sets?
[00:46] <troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLDtJXc8fg
[00:47] <troy_s> nothlit: Link!
[00:48] <nothlit> its glossy, but just wondering if you guys have seen them, http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/39
[00:49] <Toma-> that looks awesome (in terms of gloss)
[00:49] <nothlit> hmm, nice http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/34-- this is where svg reaches its  practical limitation imo http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/35 http://klepas.org/2007/03/05/%E2%80%9Cflying-high-fc7%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Cfedora-aurora-australis%E2%80%9D/
[00:52] <nothlit> svg is better at remixing http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/36, internationalising http://andy.brisgeek.com/archives/45, scripting, animation, etc
[00:56] <hbon1> what do you guys think of tango-HiRes, does that have ubuntu potential?
[00:58] <troy_s> nothlit: That limitation is only the limit of the individual.
[00:58] <troy_s> nothlit: Honestly, you can do far better work with inkscape.
[00:58] <nothlit> troy_s: practical
[00:58] <nothlit> not theoretical =p
[00:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Practical, you can do better :)
[00:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Don't make me demo something.
[00:59] <troy_s> lol
[00:59] <troy_s> hbon1: The tango hi res are still lacking style.
[00:59] <troy_s> hbon1: And detail for that matter.
[00:59] <troy_s> hbon1: Unless you have links that I haven't seen.
[01:01] <hbon1> troy_s: i'm just what IS going to be the style
[01:02] <darkmatter> troy_s: that autumn plugin aint to shabby
[01:06] <darkmatter> troy_s: been planning to do some stress testing of f8's animated background. I would love to adapt it to subtle animation and traditional effects. like. have nice nature closeups )grass, leaves etc) and have the slight breeze effect, time transitions (imagine the fun you could have with lighting. the background stuff is already linked to the clock, but there's no 'good' slideshow implementations for it
[01:07] <darkmatter> *transitional
[01:10] <nothlit> for anyone else who had trouble compiling lately http://www.nabble.com/Problem-compiling-with-gcc-4.2.2-and-libsigc%2B%2B2.0-v2.1.1-tf4644075.html#a13278901
[01:11] <darkmatter> nothlit those inkscape mockups aren't to shabby
[01:15] <darkmatter> nothlit reminded me that I need to finish my graphics apps themes. (custom gtk's designed specifically to fit with the apps) basically the same approach I take too theming in general. if an app doesnt play nice with a theme or doesnt quite look right, then build an app specific gtk.rc and point the launcher to open offending app with the requisite tweak. it works flawlessly. actually creating a consistent design. but the downside is
[01:15] <darkmatter>  the theme gets HUGE
[04:14] <Burgundavia> please remember to email fridge-devel on all new meetings
[04:59] <troy_s> yeah will get right on that... *sigh*
[04:59] <troy_s> ghoooooomba
[06:46] <BHSPitMonkey> goomba?
[10:48] <kwwii> good morning all
[12:03] <lapo> hi
[16:40] <_MMA_> Anyone know where the throbber "foot" is that shows up in Nautilus?
[17:33] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yes. /usr/share/icons/gnome<size>/animations
[17:36] <darkmatter> _MMA_: it has the static (inactive) foot and a composite image for the animation
[17:39] <somerville32> Is anyone here interested on working on Xubuntu artwork? :]
[17:40] <_MMA_> darkmatter:  Yeah. I did finally find it. I replaced the static image but saw no change. :\
[17:41] <_MMA_> somerville32: I've seen no chat about it but Im sure if someone laid out some guidelines and spammed a couple of places *someone* would be interested.
[17:41] <darkmatter> _MMA_: did you "sudo gtk-update-icon-cache -f <path to theme>"?
[17:42]  * _MMA_ has only really had lip-service though with Ubuntu Studio though.
[17:42] <_MMA_> darkmatter: I rebooted actually. Would the command make a difference?
[17:42] <somerville32> _MMA_, Well, Jmak has been doing it all by himself for the last few releases. I don't think he particularly wants help but I think it would be nice to get some good second opinions in since we rely on his decision
[17:43] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yes. the icon cache doesn't auto regen
[17:43] <_MMA_> Ahh... I will do now.
[17:43] <somerville32> _MMA_, He wants to make some radical changes this release to artwork so I'm a little scarred :P
[17:43] <darkmatter> don't ask me why. its an absolutely stupis way to handle caching
[17:43] <darkmatter> *stupid
[17:44] <_MMA_> somerville32: Sure. Thats what I was hoping this time but havnt had much luck myself.
[17:44]  * _MMA_ goes to desktop for a sec.
[17:52] <_MMA_> grr... I gotta be doing something wrong.
[18:04] <darkmatter> _MMA_: still not changing the static foot?
[18:06] <_MMA_> Well I think it has to do with the image Im replacing. I think I have it.


[08:12] <allquixotic> Hello! I am the developer of rbpitch < http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8229849#post8229849 > looking for a simple (32x32) icon for my program. It's GPLed and I am hoping to get it included in Ubuntu at some point. I'm not the artistic type, so I was wondering if anyone could get inspired to whip up an icon from the description and screenshots in that thread :-) Either that, or find an existing, distinctive icon that isn't used
[08:12] <allquixotic> elsewhere on the Ubuntu desktop...
[13:28] <coz_> hey all
[13:45] <doctormo> they coz_
[13:45] <doctormo> hey*
[13:45] <coz_> doctormo,  hey guy :)
[22:29] <coz_> hey all