[17:11] <LaserJock> morning all
[17:14] <LaserJock> well, last night I was able to get sabayon to stop crashing at startup when I edit a profile
[17:15] <alkisg> LaserJock: how do you apply the profiles made with sabayon?
[17:15] <LaserJock> alkisg: do you mean in general?
[17:16] <alkisg> yeah
[17:16] <LaserJock> you select a user to belong to a profile
[17:16] <LaserJock> but .... I haven't gotten that far yet
[17:16] <alkisg> In a manual I saw that it was left to the reader.. And I thought, ok for new users, but what if I want to apply some settings to some existing users?
[17:16] <LaserJock> I'm getting crashers once I get into the profile
[17:16] <LaserJock> don't read the manual, that's from like 2006
[17:17] <alkisg> Intrepid?
[17:17] <LaserJock> hmm?
[17:17] <alkisg> You get crashes with sabayon on intrepid?
[17:17] <LaserJock> yeah
[17:17] <alkisg> Let me try...
[17:18] <LaserJock> I fixed one so now I can actually get the session started
[17:18] <LaserJock> but then I get a ton of database errors and it dies
[17:19] <LaserJock> to use the profile you click on the profile and then hit the Users button
[17:20] <LaserJock> then you can pick which users to apply it to
[17:20] <alkisg> And how did you bypass the first bug?
[17:21] <LaserJock> well, it was actually a really little problem where it tries to find the orientation (top, bottom, etc.) of the panels
[17:21] <LaserJock> for some reason it was calling the function without a panel id and it would then crash
[17:21] <LaserJock> so I just added a little time that checks if a panel id exists and if it doesn't just assigns it as "top"
[17:22] <alkisg> Ah, in the source, it's python, got it
[17:22] <LaserJock> s/time/code/
[17:22] <LaserJock> and it worked ok at first
[17:22] <LaserJock> but then I got these database permission errors
[17:23] <LaserJock> looking at the Gnome bugzilla sabayon has 57 open bugs and many of them are crashers
[17:23] <LaserJock> my feeling is that Sabayon is trying to just do too much, you'd need a real team of people working in it to get it stable/maintained
[17:24] <LaserJock> this crasher I fixed is probably just because something changed in gnome-panel
[17:24] <LaserJock> Sabayon interacts so much with the apps that it has to keep up with *their* changes as well
[17:25] <alkisg> Yes... it has to be plugin-based, possibly with different maintainers for each plugin
[17:26] <LaserJock> it's somewhat modular
[17:27] <LaserJock> but I don't know that right now one can pick which "modules" to use
[17:27] <alkisg> Where was this first crash again? In /usr/bin/sabayon or in sabayon-session?
[17:28] <alkisg> I can't get past it...
[17:28] <LaserJock> sabayon-session
[17:28] <LaserJock> so if you click on "Edit" an Xnest window pops up and it tries to start Gnome
[17:29] <LaserJock> but default Intrepid for me it just shuts down after a second or 2 and I never see anything in the window
[17:29] <LaserJock> alkisg: is that what you get?
[17:30] <alkisg> Yes, the same
[17:32] <LaserJock> so now I need to figure out where these DB errors are coming from
[17:32] <LaserJock> it sort of looks like a permissions problem
[17:32] <alkisg> What did you do to fix the first error?
[17:33] <alkisg> changed anything in paneldelegate.py?
[17:33] <LaserJock> http://paste.ubuntu.com/96113/
[17:33] <LaserJock> yep
[17:34] <LaserJock> you want to patch /usr/share/python-support/sabayon/sabayon/sources/paneldelegate.py
[17:39] <alkisg> Nah.. I don't even get to see the database crashes
[17:39] <alkisg> I see the desktop and then it's killed, but no error logs
[17:39] <LaserJock> woot, it works for me
[17:40] <LaserJock> try it again
[17:40] <LaserJock> I think I had some times where it wouldn't work the first time but if I hit "Edit" again it would
[17:42] <alkisg> I tried it some times, most of them plain crashes without error log, on 2 of them I got a dialog to sent a .conf file to the sabayon team (but the file didn't exist)
[17:42] <alkisg> ...debugging...
[17:44] <LaserJock> it's starting up every time here now
[17:44] <alkisg> I got something: Failed to connect to socket /tmp/dbus-bkaJq0tpTl: Connection refused
[17:44] <LaserJock> but it's not saving some changes (removing launchers from the panel)
[17:44] <LaserJock> hmmm
[17:44] <alkisg> Maybe I need to logoff
[17:44] <nubae> hmmm u guys working on sabayon... cool
[17:44] <LaserJock> I think I saw an upstream bug about that
[17:45] <LaserJock> nubae: I got it to start up here anyway :-)
[17:48] <LaserJock> this thing is terribly complex
[17:48] <Ahmuck> yes, is it so complex it would be simpler to re-write?
[17:49] <Ahmuck> that is what i was wondering
[17:49] <LaserJock> well, not if you want to do what it does
[17:49] <LaserJock> but it's just tracking *so* much stuff. My simple test profile where I turned off a couple things and edited the menu is a 11MB zip file!
[17:50] <Ahmuck> did u get it to work?
[17:50] <LaserJock> well, I created it
[17:50] <Ahmuck> nubae: hey, u here today?
[17:50] <nubae> yeah :-)
[17:50] <alkisg> I got it working (once at least), but it complained a lot, and didn't save anything
[17:52] <alkisg> Hm... it also leaves a lot of processes running after each crash
[17:52] <alkisg> May I should kill them before restarting it
[17:55] <LaserJock> bah
[17:55] <LaserJock> yeah, kill them
[17:55] <LaserJock> I think that's what I was running into
[17:55] <LaserJock> I kept trying and got problems, then this morning I tried it again (without logging out or rebooting) and it works fine
[17:56] <LaserJock> well, users-admin seems to not be able to add a user!
[17:56] <LaserJock> Gnome is really falling apart when it comes to basic user management :(
[17:56] <nubae> yep
[17:56] <nubae> I use the command line only now
[17:58] <nubae> not to mention its totally differenta cross all distros
[17:58] <alkisg> LaserJock: this happened to hardy as well, users-admin had problems getting root rights didn't complain about it or something
[17:59] <LaserJock> I see a bug where it looks for user "root" instead of UID 0
[17:59] <LaserJock> I wonder if that's it
[17:59] <alkisg> I don't think so
[18:00] <nubae> LaserJock: it worked fine for me in hardy
[18:01] <Ahmuck> which is why i think python would be better and modules
[18:01] <Ahmuck> then you could step through it one at a time.  i am however NOT a programmer
[18:02] <LaserJock> well, it doesn't really matter so much what language it's written in
[18:02] <LaserJock> bottom line there has to be people behind it
[18:03] <alkisg> Yes, but if it's interpreter or shell-based, it's easier for admins to debug the problem and send accurate feedback / patches
[18:04] <nubae> guess there is some truth to that
[18:04] <nubae> not every admin is a package maintainer I suppose
[18:05] <LaserJock> alkisg: I'm not entirely sure about that
[18:06] <LaserJock> gdb can do a pretty good job of debugging C/C++ apps
[18:06] <alkisg> Sure, but does a regular admin that exceriences the problem download the source, configure and compile it, and then run it under gdb to see where the problem is?
[18:06] <LaserJock> they don't have to
[18:07] <alkisg> Why not? How accurate feedback can you give now with the problem in users-admin?
[18:07] <LaserJock> they might need to install the debugging symbols package, but they don't need to compile or anything like that
[18:08] <alkisg> Debuggin on a live system is surely a better way than looking though a crash dump
[18:08] <nubae> yeah
[18:09] <LaserJock> right, but that doesn't have a ton to do with the language you write it in
[18:10] <LaserJock> I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Python and prefer it
[18:10] <LaserJock> but I'm not going to just go rewrite every app that's not in Python :-)
[18:10] <alkisg> Of course not!!!
[18:11] <LaserJock> alright, I found the problem
[18:11] <LaserJock> users-admin checks that each user has a login, password, home directory, and shell
[18:11] <alkisg> I've been an assembly/C/Pascal programmer myself for the last ...ehm... 17 years, so it isn't easy for me to switch to python as well
[18:12] <LaserJock> Sabayon uses a user that doesn't have a home directory
[18:12] <LaserJock> so basically if you install Sabayon you can no longer use users-admin :(
[18:12] <nubae> pascal :-) such a educationally popular language
[18:12] <nubae> at least it was
[18:12] <LaserJock> I never learned Pascal
[18:12] <nubae> and what if u create the /home dir for the sabayon user?
[18:13] <LaserJock> well, I *think* users-admin would work but I think it would break Sabayon
[18:13] <LaserJock> Sabyon uses a temporary home dir in /tmp
[18:13]  * nubae wonders what that would have changed from Hardy
[18:14] <LaserJock> it worked fine in Hardy with Sabayon installed?
[18:14] <nubae> yes
[18:14] <nubae> I remember adding users and making profiles
[18:14] <nubae> and it working
[18:15] <LaserJock> I think what happened is the gnome-system-tools-backends changed
[18:15] <nubae> ah, makes sense
[18:15] <LaserJock> so that it added in these checks
[18:15] <LaserJock> they probably were fixing a bug where people were creating users without /home dir :-)
[18:16] <LaserJock> but this is sort of a nasty bug
[18:16] <LaserJock> there are a lot of packages, not just Sabayon, that create users like this
[18:16] <LaserJock> ohhhhhhhh
[18:17]  * LaserJock has a thought
[18:17] <LaserJock> sabayon creates it's user as a regular user, not a system user
[18:17] <LaserJock> I bet users-admin on checks for a home dir for non-system users
[18:17] <LaserJock> *only
[18:22] <LaserJock> I wonder if anybody uses sabayon in Debian, it's only got 1 open bug
[18:23] <Ahmuck> interesting.  i could no longer use users/admin so i simply did a backup and re-install of the os after installing sabyon
[18:23] <LaserJock> yikes!
[18:23] <Ahmuck> *shrugs*, it worked
[18:23] <LaserJock> yeah, I reinstall a lot
[18:24] <LaserJock> I think I'm about the worst of the dev ;-)
[18:24] <LaserJock> *devs
[18:24] <LaserJock> I know one guy hasn't installed fresh since like Red Hat 6 or something
[18:24] <LaserJock> ... and he's running Ubuntu Hardy or newer
[18:25] <Ahmuck> nubae: i'm getting ready to tackle the inet problem if you have time today
[18:27] <nubae> yeah sure, go for it
[18:27] <nubae> paste me /opt/ltsp/fati386/etc/network/interfaces
[18:28] <LaserJock> so I think if we got a list of "things" we wan to be able to in user management then we can figure out what app(s) are going to be the best to look at
[18:29] <LaserJock> I think sabayon is too complex to maintain unless you have some people who can spend some serious time on it
[18:31] <nubae> whatcha mean exactly?
[18:32] <Ahmuck-Jr> nubae: what did you want pasted?
[18:33] <LaserJock> nubae: did you mean me?
[18:34] <nubae> LaserJock: yeah
[18:34] <LaserJock> nubae: well, it seems quite fragile
[18:34] <nubae> Ahmuck ^^
[18:34] <LaserJock> it's trying to track *ever* change made to a desktop
[18:34] <Ahmuck-Jr> u know i was thinking about the sabyon vs python thingy.  being a non programmer it i guess it really doesn't matter.  i've heard various things about python that were always positive.  i guess from my pov, waiting is the hardest thing, and if someone is volunteering to do it in python and the other application is not being maintained i'm always the person to choose the most eficiant route,...
[18:34] <Ahmuck-Jr> ...which is usually the shortest
[18:35] <LaserJock> and these days there is a lot that's going on
[18:35] <nubae> ah ok, gotcha, so limit what it does?
[18:36] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure
[18:36] <Ahmuck-Jr> nubae: what language is your script written in ?
[18:36] <Ahmuck-Jr> C
[18:36] <LaserJock> I wonder if it's just not a great overall idea right now
[18:36] <nubae> no :-) bash
[18:37] <nubae> LaserJock: it is
[18:37] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15745
[18:37]  * nubae can't code C to save his life... no patience
[18:37] <LaserJock> I'm not sure that deployable profiles is really something that Linux can do
[18:37] <Ahmuck-Jr> i understand the script, and will prolly customize the apps to my own need
[18:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> is there anyway to "link"the system apps with the fat client?
[18:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> deployable profiles ?
[18:38] <nubae> that would be like using local-apps
[18:38]  * Ahmuck-Jr used to code C++
[18:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> 20 years ago
[18:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> k, not quite that long
[18:38] <LaserJock> Sabayon is used to deploy "profiles"
[18:39] <Ahmuck-Jr> more like 12 years ago
[18:39] <nubae> Ahmuck-Jr: paste me your ifconfig output
[18:39] <nubae> on the from the server
[18:39] <LaserJock> I'm just not sure if that's something that Linux/Gnome is going to be able to do very well for the foreseeable future
[18:40] <nubae> well if they stopped thinking about it as being a single user system, then sure
[18:40] <nubae> but I think you're right
[18:40] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15746
[18:40] <nubae> well that looks fine, so must be dns not getting through to the thin client
[18:41] <nubae> u got this in /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf?:     option domain-name-servers <IP_ADDRESS>;
[18:41] <alkisg> Even if sabayon worked, I'm not sure I'd want to use it. I'd prefer a tool that would let me specify the changes I want, instead of tracking any change I (even accidentally) made.
[18:41] <nubae>
[18:41] <Ahmuck> do i need to add dns servers to the network
[18:42] <LaserJock> alkisg: you can manage the changes
[18:42] <nubae> if you want to be able resolve web pages, then yes
[18:42] <nubae> yeah, it just shouldnt track everything, is there an easy way to limit that LaserJock, or is it loads a work?
[18:42] <alkisg> LaserJock, inside a 10k-line file? (if I recall correctly the number you've said above)
[18:43] <LaserJock> nubae: there is some, you can choose what to track and what not to basically
[18:44] <LaserJock> alkisg: no, that's the source code. The GUI lets you look at changes and tell it to lock/ignore them
[18:44] <LaserJock> but  the problem is that it has to track everything in the first place, to then give you a choice :-)
[18:44] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15747
[18:44] <nubae> would limit crashes too
[18:44] <LaserJock> pessulus is great, but it's limited to locking down things in gconf
[18:45] <nubae> if it just did what we know it can without crashign, thats a very good start
[18:45] <LaserJock> sabayon was designed to let you work with almost anything
[18:45] <Ahmuck-Jr> what is the purpose of tracking every change?
[18:45] <LaserJock> it has some support for Firefox and OO.o was planned
[18:45] <alkisg> LaserJock: so if I want to set a specific bookmark for all users with sabayon, you think I'll be able to do it somewhat easily?
[18:46] <LaserJock> alkisg: yes, if sabayon is working
[18:46] <nubae> :-)
[18:46] <Ahmuck-Jr> nubae: no, i meant external dns servers.  i'm thinking about going with OpenDNS
[18:46] <Ahmuck-Jr> but i can add that in the file easlily
[18:46] <LaserJock> the purpose of tracking everything is to create a complete "profile"
[18:46] <nubae> oh Ahmuck your server is set to <IP_ADDRESS> in there
[18:46] <nubae> how does it even work?
[18:46] <LaserJock> with sabayon basically you create a profile of what you want the desktop to look like
[18:46] <nubae> its set as 0.254 when u do ifconfig
[18:47] <LaserJock> then when the user logs in basically they're /home dir is replaced with the "profile"
[18:47] <Ahmuck-Jr> inet --> router --> server --> switch --> client
[18:47] <nubae> if thats your live dhcpd.conf file, it shouldnt work at all
[18:47] <Ahmuck-Jr> works great on regualar thin clients
[18:47] <nubae> in my script, and on the server, its set to <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:47] <Ahmuck-Jr> like i said, if it can break, i can break it and if it shouldn't work, it works :)
[18:47] <nubae> yet in the dhcpd.conf file its set to <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:48] <Ahmuck-Jr> ah, so i need to change it
[18:48]  * nubae scratches his head
[18:48] <Ahmuck-Jr> or ur saying the fat client shouldn't even work?
[18:48] <nubae> right, but it shouldnt work at all
[18:48] <alkisg> nubae, that's not the ltsp server, it's the dns server and the router, so it's working...
[18:48] <nubae> right
[18:48] <nubae> right same thing
[18:48] <alkisg> No, in the dhcp offer the client gets server = .254
[18:49] <alkisg> So they boot fine, they just don't get correct dns/gateway addresses
[18:49] <nubae> wait.... his ifconfig shows his server has ip 0.254
[18:49] <nubae> and his dhcpd.conf file shoes 0.1
[18:49] <nubae> ohhh wauit
[18:49] <Ahmuck-Jr> it's magic \o/
[18:49] <nubae> u're right
[18:49] <alkisg> That's what I'm saying. The dhcp server still sends server=.254
[18:49] <Ahmuck-Jr> sorry ...
[18:49] <nubae> ltsp-server isnt defined
[18:50] <alkisg> If he enabled next-server, then it wouldn't boot
[18:50] <nubae> ok... ahmuck, change everything that is .1 to 0.254 :-)
[18:50] <nubae> right, thats what I expected
[18:51] <nubae> hmmm, and how are the thin clients getting inet then?
[18:52] <nubae> with a broken router and dns server
[18:53] <alkisg> they are?
[18:53] <alkisg> erm, that is, through the server or as fat clients?
[18:54] <nubae> no as thin clients they are, which is off
[18:54] <nubae> odd
[18:54] <alkisg> Because if they work as thin clients, they don't need dns/gateway
[18:54] <nubae> oh, well I guess if its properly defined for server
[18:54] <alkisg> They just connect to the server, and the server in turn uses it's own dns/gateway
[18:54] <alkisg> yeap
[18:54] <nubae> mine dont work if I dont have proper router defined
[18:54] <nubae> but of course I use an external router
[18:55] <alkisg> thin or fat?
[18:55] <Ahmuck-Jr> to serve dhcp ?
[18:55] <nubae> both
[18:55] <alkisg> thin should work, as long as they boot
[18:55] <nubae> yeah, true
[18:56] <nubae> yeah Ahmuck just change dhcpd.conf settings
[19:01] <Ahmuck> is there a way to target a specific user with a specific fat client?
[19:01] <Ahmuck> that's the next step
[19:01]  * Ahmuck booting fat client now
[19:02] <Ahmuck> nubae: should your script have "peeked" at the default settings and copied ?
[19:03] <nubae> dhcpd.conf is editted manually by the admin on the server side
[19:03] <nubae> and the script just grabs whatever config details to connect from its side
[19:03] <nubae> Ahmuck: the way to set specific users is through mac:add:resses
[19:05] <Ahmuck-Jr> fat client is still dead to the inet
[19:06] <Ahmuck-Jr> i haven't yet sat down and played connect the dot
[19:06] <nubae> did u restart dhcpd3-server?
[19:07] <Ahmuck-Jr> i restarted the server
[19:07] <nubae> before restarting the client?
[19:07] <Ahmuck-Jr> yes.  i did not start the client this morning until i had restarted the server
[19:07] <Ahmuck-Jr> i'll restart the client again just to be sure
[19:07] <nubae> yes but when did u restart the server, just now?
[19:08] <Ahmuck> yes
[19:08] <nubae> well, should actually be fine now, on the fatclient try pinging google.com
[19:09] <nubae> to make sure dns is working
[19:09] <nubae> unless u dont have a dns server running on the server, in which case, choose another address
[19:10] <Ahmuck-Jr> does dns run on server by default?
[19:10] <Ahmuck-Jr> iirc, it does
[19:10] <Ahmuck-Jr> btw,i love edubuntu's icons
[19:12] <Ahmuck-Jr> google is dead on the fat client
[19:13] <nubae> then its not resolving, paste me your /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
[19:14] <alkisg> Ahmuck-Jr, if I got this right, you're using <IP_ADDRESS> as a dns server in your dhcpd.conf, but you don't have bind installed in the ltsp server.
[19:14] <alkisg> So you should either install bind or just change dhcpd.conf
[19:14] <nubae> much better explained :-)
[19:14] <alkisg> and put whatever dns server your ltsp server has (cat /etc/resolv.conf on the server)
[19:15] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15748
[19:15] <Ahmuck-Jr> alkisg: i'm using a default ltsp server
[19:15] <Ahmuck-Jr> setup
[19:15] <nubae> k that looks fine, now do what alkisg says
[19:15] <alkisg> by default bind is not installed
[19:15] <nubae> bind = dns server
[19:15] <Ahmuck-Jr> outside of the modifications that nubae has had me make for the fat client setup
[19:15] <Ahmuck-Jr> ah.  should that be part of your fat client setup?
[19:15] <nubae> no :-)
[19:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> bind is already installed
[19:16] <alkisg> Also, you have a 2 nic server, right?
[19:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> yes
[19:16] <alkisg> And the clients are only seeing your first nic
[19:16] <nubae> oh right gateway from one to the other
[19:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> inet incoming on one, and thin clients on another
[19:16] <alkisg> yeap, masquerading
[19:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> the thin clients work fine
[19:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> it's the fat clients that don't work
[19:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> on the inet side.  the fat clients boot fine, but no inet
[19:17] <nubae> right, imagine u had computers elsewhere on your nework though
[19:17] <nubae> fatclient is the same
[19:17] <alkisg> You need gateway & dns on the fat clients (= put them in dhcpd.conf), and to enable ip forwarding on the server
[19:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> ok.  i wondered about that
[19:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> myself
[19:18] <nubae> all this shoudl normally be already set up on standard 2 nic server
[19:18] <alkisg> An external dns server?
[19:18] <nubae> any dns server
[19:18] <alkisg> I don't think dhcp3.conf gets any dns server
[19:18] <nubae> it gets 0.1 as default
[19:19] <alkisg> But bind isn't installed by default
[19:19] <nubae> yeah I know... but what I'm saying is, this is server stuff... the fatclient script shouldnt be setting server variables
[19:19] <alkisg> Sure, that's correct
[19:20] <nubae> its assumed that u have either installed bind, or u use another dns server
[19:20] <alkisg> But Ahmuck-Jr still has to fix dhcpd.conf
[19:20] <nubae> yeah
[19:20] <nubae> but he says he has bind installed
[19:21] <alkisg> So Ahmuck change this: option domain-name-servers <IP_ADDRESS>  to whatever dns your server uses (cat /etc/resolv.conf on the server)
[19:21] <alkisg> And you'll also need to enable ip forwarding on the server
[19:21] <nubae> one shouldn't really need that, I think enabling gateway address for the internal nic should work
[19:22] <alkisg> I don't think so, the packets won't be passed to the other nic if he doesn't enable ip forwarding
[19:23] <alkisg> (for the fat clients again, the thin should work without any of these stuff)
[19:23] <nubae> well, there is still a slight difference between fatclient and real fatclient
[19:25] <nubae> but to be honest, I'v not looked at the script in a while, so your're probably right
[19:25] <alkisg> I don't know about that, it's your field! :)
[19:25] <alkisg> I'm talking about this:
[19:25] <alkisg> sudo su
[19:25] <alkisg> iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -j MASQUERADE
[19:25] <alkisg> echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
[19:25] <alkisg> exit
[19:25] <nubae> right I know, I remember not having to do that
[19:25] <alkisg> OK, back to pascal programming... :(
[19:26] <nubae> :-)
[19:49] <Ahmuck> still no connection
[19:50] <Ahmuck> i'll have to sit down and connect the dots so to speak to see what's going on
[19:52] <nubae> u masqueraded?
[19:52] <Ahmuck> yes, i did get my masquarde mask on.  i think it looks fashionalbe :)
[19:53] <Ahmuck> yes, i did
[19:53] <Ahmuck> that waht alkisg posted
[19:53] <Ahmuck> i'm a little confused
[19:53] <nubae> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ThinClientHowtoNAT
[19:56] <Ahmuck> k, i don't recall having to do this for the thin client setup.  it just worked, or sorta.  i did have to set one address to dhcp iirc
[19:57] <nubae> right this is needed only if you are running external clients, which fatclient kinda is
[19:58] <nubae> actually paste me /opt/ltsp/fati386/etc/resolv.conf please
[20:04] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15749
[20:05] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15750
[20:06] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15751
[20:06] <Ahmuck> sorry for all the names, i have to walk from my office to the classroom
[20:06] <nubae> k its detecting your nameserver as <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:07] <Ahmuck> er, nic names
[20:07] <nubae> so put that in dhcpd.conf
[20:07] <Ahmuck> <IP_ADDRESS> is a tomato router
[20:07] <Ahmuck> it's there
[20:07] <Ahmuck> ah, it's there as the gateway
[20:07] <nubae> right
[20:07] <nubae> so set it as dns server in your dhcpd.conf and u should see it working
[20:08] <Ahmuck-Jr> so delete the gateway and set it to be the dns server
[20:08] <nubae> no no
[20:08] <nubae> just in dhcpd.conf
[20:08] <nubae> edit the current option domain-name-servers <IP_ADDRESS>;
[20:08] <Ahmuck-Jr> ok
[20:08] <Ahmuck-Jr> sudo start dhcp3
[20:08] <nubae> and then restart dhcp3-server
[20:09] <alkisg> Ahmuck-Jr: your interfaces file is wrong
[20:09] <alkisg>     gateway <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:09] <alkisg> The gateway can't be on a different subnet
[20:09] <alkisg> So you should delete this line, eth0 will be used when a gateway is needed
[20:10] <nubae> yeah gateway will be automatic
[20:18] <Ahmuck-Jr> nope
[20:19] <alkisg> Ahmuck-Jr: can you ping eth0 from a fat client?
[20:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> i can ping the incoming nick as well as the thin client nic
[20:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> why would i see an eth38 ?
[20:27] <Ahmuck-Jr> i cannot however ping <IP_ADDRESS> from the client
[20:27] <Ahmuck-Jr> which is the router
[20:27] <alkisg> So you ip forwarding doesn't really work
[20:29] <alkisg> Where do you see an eth38?
[20:30] <Ahmuck-Jr> ifconfig
[20:30] <alkisg> on the server?
[20:30] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15752
[20:30] <alkisg> cat /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules
[20:31] <alkisg> and pastebin it
[20:31] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15753
[20:32] <alkisg> Eeeek!!! nubae, does this have anything to do with the fat client setup?
[20:32] <alkisg> This file should only have your 2 nics..
[20:33] <Ahmuck> yes, well i was taken aback when i saw the file as i thought it was odd as well
[20:33] <Ahmuck-Jr> i do have virtual box installed here, but iirc, it's self contained
[20:34] <alkisg> Yes, vbox doesn't have anything to do with this file
[20:36] <nubae> no
[20:36] <nubae> fatclient doesnt touch that
[20:36] <alkisg> So, Ahmuck, better start with this one! :) Leave only your two interfaces!!!
[20:36] <alkisg> reboot is needed, though
[20:37] <nubae> where are all those interfaces coming from?
[20:37] <alkisg> And you could rename eth38 to eth1, it would make much more sense
[20:37] <nubae> eth0
[20:37] <nubae> his eth1 is the thin client one
[20:37] <alkisg> sorry, eth0
[20:37] <alkisg> Ahmuck: did you try 38 different NICs on the server?!!!
[20:37] <nubae> that is totally weird man
[20:37] <nubae> :-)
[20:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> no, both nics are internal
[20:38] <nubae> ifconfig is handing out only 2 it seems
[20:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> i thought i noticed this ealier with a firewall setup.  could it be a os bug?
[20:38] <alkisg> There are different mac addresses there, so i suppose they are real NICs
[20:38] <nubae> weird weird
[20:38] <nubae> well vbox could do that
[20:38] <alkisg> Nah, I got vbox for a year now, never seen it touching that file
[20:39] <nubae> yeah but under different configs dont u get bridges instead of nat?
[20:39] <alkisg> I've only seen multiple nics in that file when replacing nics
[20:39] <nubae> and a bridge would create other nics, no?
[20:39] <alkisg> I've used it with bridges as   well
[20:39] <nubae> k... just a guess :-)
[20:39] <alkisg> ...and these aren't bridges!!!
[20:40] <nubae> ahmuck, u're a good tester... u really do find all user case scenarios ;-)
[20:40] <alkisg> Ahmuck: did you run any mac-address changing utility?
[20:41] <nubae> yeah those are all real physical devices...
[20:41] <alkisg> ...and all forcedeth
[20:41] <nubae> what is forcedeth?
[20:41] <alkisg> so I guess something was changing his NIC mac address
[20:42] <alkisg> I guess it's a vendor / product name, like realtek or something
[20:42] <nubae> must be  abug
[20:42] <alkisg> (nvidia google tells me)
[20:42] <nubae> https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+bug/153727
[20:43] <alkisg> Nah.. Ahmuck's case is random, not increasing! :P
[20:43] <nubae> its got from 1 to 38
[20:43] <nubae> that seems increased
[20:43] <alkisg> I guess in the next reboot it'll be eth39!
[20:43] <nubae> hehe
[20:44] <alkisg> Oh, I read "mac-address" instead of "device number", my fault
[20:44] <alkisg> And forcedeth again, eh? Good catch, nubae...
[20:45] <nubae> so nvidia driver related it seems
[20:46] <alkisg> Hmm... did you see the proposed workaround? It turns out that you may declare a NIC without declaring its mac address... Very useful for cloning!
[20:46] <nubae> hmmm
[20:47] <nubae> well, seems a fix would be replacing kernel driver
[20:48] <nubae> actually intrepid should have fixed it
[20:48] <alkisg> I'm talking about this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+bug/153727/comments/7
[20:48] <alkisg> It's useful for cloning
[20:48] <nubae> yeah
[20:50] <nubae> so its a bug in forcedeth.c
[20:51] <alkisg> Ahmuck? did you do the workaround?
[20:53] <nubae> wow, what an annoying bug
[20:53] <alkisg> (A difference in Ahmuck's file as opposed to mine, is that Ahmuck's gets generated by  /lib/udev/write_net_rules, while mine gets generated by  /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules)!!!
[20:54] <alkisg> So there must be something else wrong also
[20:55] <alkisg> (it says so in the header of the files, Ahmuck's and mine)
[20:55] <nubae> maybe something to with an upgrade vs install
[20:56] <nubae> I've got the same as ahmuck actually
[20:56] <nubae> ;-)
[20:56] <nubae> # This file was automatically generated by the /lib/udev/write_net_rules
[20:56] <nubae> # program run by the persistent-net-generator.rules rules file.
[20:56] <alkisg> Oh, ok then
[20:56] <alkisg> I'm on a clean installation
[20:57] <nubae> well, I upgraded
[20:57] <alkisg> well, sounds like you're right! :P
[20:57] <nubae> but from alpha 5 Ithink
[20:58] <nubae> anyway its presistent-net-generator.rules creating it
[20:59] <nubae> anyway its definitely because of the forcedeth driver
[21:00] <alkisg> OK, where is Ahmuck? !!! :)\
[21:13] <nubae> LaserJock: if u are around... many of the apps mentioned in the spreadsheet don't have a counterpart on appnr.com
[21:14] <nubae> and many more educational apps are in appnr.com but not on the list...
[21:18] <nubae> For now I'm going to include only those that are on both, otherwise we cant take advantage of click and install
[21:19] <LaserJock> nubae: well, we need to categorize
[21:20] <nubae> whatcha mean?
[21:20] <LaserJock> well, we have different levels of "support"
[21:21] <nubae> ok, but shouldnt everything thats in edubuntu be in appnr?
[21:21] <nubae> since appnr has universe and multiverse
[21:22] <LaserJock> no
[21:23] <LaserJock> Edubuntu does not come from Universe or Multiverse
[21:23] <LaserJock> it comes from Main
[21:23] <nubae> right, thats what I mean
[21:23] <LaserJock> and appnr.com is just a list some people made
[21:23] <nubae> hmmm.... I thought it took the packages as a base
[21:23] <nubae> all the pacakges, sorry
[21:25] <nubae> its a bit of a pain, because the lovely detailed explanations on appnr, for individual packages is a blessing
[21:26] <nubae> taking that into account actually makes sense to put edubuntu into various categories, ie. -supported, -unsupported, maybe...
[21:26] <LaserJock> well, the explanations are just from the package themselves
[21:27] <nubae> I guess I should be installing the packages just to make sure they work and all
[21:27] <LaserJock> nubae: did you get the hardy and intrepid lists done?
[21:28] <nubae> I believe I have infront of me the intrepid list, but really it should just be one list with 3 categories (hardy, jaunty, intrepid)
[21:28] <LaserJock> I think we want 1 list for each release
[21:28] <LaserJock> so something like edubuntu.org/8.10/apps
[21:28] <nubae> yeah, but the spreadsheet to base it off
[21:29] <nubae> or the whatever to base it off, a spreadsheet is a pain
[21:29] <nubae> a db would be best
[21:29] <LaserJock> sure
[21:29] <nubae> but for now I'm putting everything in an html file
[21:29] <LaserJock> the spreadsheet was just to put something down
[21:29] <nubae> so I can upload it to edubuntu.org as is
[21:30] <nubae> ok, well from what you're saying, I still need to figure out what is in hardy and intrepid, and make 2 lists for that, and then we need to decide what goes in Jaunty
[21:30] <nubae> right now I have one semi-finished nicely laid out html file
[21:30] <LaserJock> yep
[21:30] <LaserJock> can you put it up somewhere for me to look at?
[21:31] <nubae> yep, I'll put it up on a hidden node at edubuntu.org, let me just finish off what I'm doing...
[21:32] <LaserJock> np
[21:33] <nubae> you're sure all these apps are actually packaged, because there are some I can't find using apt-cache search or show
[21:33] <nubae> and I have every repo enabled
[21:34] <LaserJock> well
[21:34] <LaserJock> I think they're packaged, but the spreadsheet just has the Add/Remove name
[21:34] <nubae> should still find it with apt-cache show
[21:34] <nubae> search I mean
[21:35] <LaserJock> only if the Add/Remove name is similar
[21:35] <LaserJock> it may or may not
[21:35] <nubae> well it looks in description too, no?
[21:35] <LaserJock> right, but Add/Remove can be anything
[21:36] <nubae> ok, yeah I'm seeing... sometimes no relation
[21:39] <nubae> for example: CoqIde Proof Assistant does not exist
[21:39] <nubae> in add/remove
[22:06] <Ahmuck> ok, i'm back
[22:07] <Ahmuck> sorry, i have students for the rest of the day
[22:07] <Ahmuck> i'll have to do this again tomorrow
[22:07] <nubae> no worries,..
[22:07] <nubae> u saw we found the bug
[22:07] <nubae> its with your network card driver (forcedeth)
[22:24] <nubae> LaserJock: I'm gonna have to go through all the pacakge lists? ie, edubuntu-legacy, edubuntu-yound, etc, to figure out whats in each distro
[22:25] <LaserJock> nubae: use edubuntu-desktop
[22:25] <nubae> I'm doing it through the bzr meta package
[22:25] <LaserJock> ok
[22:26] <LaserJock> so you want the desktop-addon seed
[22:26] <nubae> that doesnt include everything at all
[22:26] <nubae> maybe ship-addon
[22:27] <nubae> oh wait not shipped anymore is it
[22:27] <Ahmuck> k, so how does one fix that bug?
[22:27] <Ahmuck> i'll look at the link
[22:28] <LaserJock> ship-addon has got a bit more but desktop-addon should have what you want
[22:28] <nubae> no, maybe 10%
[22:28] <nubae> 10% of what is listed in the spreadsheet
[22:28] <nubae> if that
[22:29] <nubae> childsplay isnt even listed there, looks like just the officially canonical supported apps
[22:29] <LaserJock> ok, but the spreadsheet is *way* more than what Edubuntu supports
[22:29] <LaserJock> childsplay is not part of Edubuntu
[22:30] <nubae> ok, now I'm very confused... I am using the spreadsheet as  base for what is or is not edubuntu
[22:30] <LaserJock> the spreadsheet has everything that's remotely educational that in Add/Remove
[22:30] <nubae> far from everything
[22:31] <nubae> it must be based on hardy or even gutsy
[22:31] <LaserJock> shouldn't be
[22:31] <LaserJock> I think hardy or intrepid
[22:31] <nubae> many apps are not in add/remove, and many many in add/remove are not in the list
[22:31] <nubae> only conclusion I can come to
[22:31] <LaserJock> many apps are not in Add/Remove
[22:32] <nubae> just looking at A, we have anki, adun, avogadro
[22:32] <nubae> all listed in add/remove
[22:32] <nubae> but not in the spreadsheet
[22:33] <nubae> and its like that for every letter
[22:33] <LaserJock> right
[22:33] <LaserJock> I *think* the spreadsheet is from Hardy
[22:33] <LaserJock> I put avogadro in Intrepid so that would make sense
[22:34] <nubae> ok, so then I can conlcude this, whatver I don't find in the add/remove, has been removed since hardy, right?
[22:34] <LaserJock> hmm, not necessarily I don't think
[22:34] <LaserJock> it could be removed
[22:35] <nubae> well, ok, I'll just put a little N next to the ones that are listed in the spreadsheet but not in add/remove
[22:35] <nubae> and I'll use the add/remove in intrepid for the new base, sounds ok?
[22:36] <Ahmuck> where is the spreadsheet?
[22:36] <nubae> but then again, we should really define what edubuntu is, cause if this is not edubuntu, then is this really what I should be doing
[22:36] <LaserJock> nubae: honestly, I wouldn't use add/remove at all
[22:36]  * nubae runs around in circles
[22:36] <LaserJock> I would just use the seeds
[22:37] <nubae> the seeds have practically nothing in them
[22:37] <LaserJock> yep
[22:37] <LaserJock> but that's what we have
[22:38] <LaserJock> you should have a list of ~20-30
[22:38] <nubae> :-) so why did I get that list then :-/
[22:38] <nubae> I've just been putting in hours of work with that
[22:39] <LaserJock> that's why I've been poking you about it ;-)
[22:39] <LaserJock> remember, I said to use the seeds
[22:39] <nubae> I understood work on the seeds for Jaunty, and for what to include in it...
[22:40] <nubae> gah, k, never mind... this can be the prospective edu apps list
[22:40] <nubae> I can pull whatever from it and stick into the actual lists
[22:41] <LaserJock> nubae: yeah, don't scrap what you have for sure
[22:42]  * nubae now understands what LaserJock means with just main
[22:44] <nubae> brackets are recommends, right?
[22:44] <LaserJock> yep
[22:44] <nubae> its a good thing I didnt start with the games...
[22:45] <nubae> games app list is humungous
[22:45] <LaserJock> hehe, yes
[22:45] <LaserJock> humungous and not in Edubuntu
[22:46] <nubae> but its confusing for folks if its available under Education in the add/remove menu
[22:47] <nubae> I mean, if I got this confused... I'm surely not the only one
[22:47] <nubae> I bet most people will assume education in add/remove is edubuntu
[22:49] <LaserJock> well, there certainly is some confusion I guess
[22:51] <LaserJock> that's why I think there may some value in these bundles
[22:52] <LaserJock> and separating "Edubuntu" from "Ubuntu in Education"
[22:52] <LaserJock> traditionally Edubuntu was defined by the CDs
[22:53] <nubae> well its easy enough, we can have 2 categories, supported and unsupported
[22:54] <LaserJock> right, but really that's not trivial
[22:55] <nubae> well, it requires creating another seed right?, but that can be as big or small as one pleases
[22:55] <nubae> maybe not if its supposed to be all encompassing though
[22:55] <LaserJock> but if you put something in a seed you "own" it
[22:57] <nubae> u mean u're responsible for its packaging??
[22:57] <LaserJock> traditionally yes
[22:57] <LaserJock> for it's bugs, etc.
[22:57] <nubae> omg
[22:57] <nubae> but thats where the -unsupported comes in
[22:58] <LaserJock> right, but -unsupported still needs to be supported ;-)
[22:58] <LaserJock> software doesn't just "exist", it need to get maintained
[22:58] <nubae> ok, so u cant get around ignoring bugs on launchpad about something
[22:59] <LaserJock> in if you point people towards a package there is some assumption that you're going to take care of it
[22:59] <nubae> and sending it all downstream to the package maintainer
[22:59] <nubae> nah... this is like recommended stuff
[23:00] <nubae> but I can see this is not easy... it becomes extremely political
[23:00] <LaserJock> ok, ... but still
[23:00] <LaserJock> if we say, "go install childsplay" and then don't do *anything* towards childsplay I think it's a bad thing
[23:01] <nubae> u mean, just showing people the app exists, isn't enough?
[23:01] <nubae> I'm thinking from the users point of view now
[23:02] <LaserJock> I think they assume the software is being taken cared of
[23:02] <nubae> but it is, by the package maintainer
[23:02] <LaserJock> wouldn't you?
[23:02] <LaserJock> we *are* the package maintainer
[23:02] <LaserJock> that's my point
[23:02] <nubae> ok, I get that traditionally its that way...
[23:02] <nubae> but the tux 4 kids suite for example
[23:03] <nubae> which IS supported, all its bugs get sent downstream
[23:03] <LaserJock> not exactly
[23:04] <nubae> as I understand it, edubuntu maintains the seeds only, not the packages themselves
[23:04] <LaserJock> not at all
[23:04] <LaserJock> we maintain everything in the seeds
[23:04] <nubae> hmmm... so basically edubuntu means... supported by canonical then
[23:04] <LaserJock> no
[23:05]  * LaserJock thinks nubae's head is going to explode :-)
[23:05] <Ahmuck> users want software that intalls and works
[23:06] <Ahmuck> if it installs and doesn't work is or is buggy, that's bad for any distro
[23:06] <nubae> yeah, but there is such a thing as unsupported, in fact most of ubuntu apps are unsupported
[23:06] <LaserJock> no, that's a bad term
[23:07] <LaserJock> "supported" mean you can by Canonical support and that the software is maintained by Core Developers
[23:08] <nubae> one of the biggest advantages edubuntu has, being the 'educational distro' is introducing users to great edu apps for whatever niche they need...
[23:08] <LaserJock> and should receive better security support
[23:09] <LaserJock> "unsupported" means you can't by Canonical support and the software is maintained by MOTU
[23:09] <LaserJock> and gets security support on best-effort basis
[23:10] <nubae> soo all the apps in the seeds are supported officially then, right? or am I getting that wrong too?
[23:11] <LaserJock> you're right
[23:13] <nubae> would not that indicate that especially u should be being paid for that?
[23:13] <LaserJock> hmm?
[23:14] <nubae> I mean if u are the maintainer the minute u add the package to the seed
[23:14] <nubae> so if someone bought canonical support
[23:14] <nubae> u'd be paid...
[23:14] <LaserJock> umm, no
[23:14] <LaserJock> I wish it worked that way ;-)
[23:15] <nubae> it logically should
[23:15] <LaserJock> Canonical gets paid for Canonical support
[23:15] <nubae> otherwise I see no reason why one has to include only officically supported packages
[23:15] <nubae> right... so by including only the official packages, that only helps them
[23:15] <nubae> u see what I'm getting at?
[23:15] <LaserJock> hmm
[23:16] <LaserJock> no, it helps everybody
[23:16] <nubae> it would help more people if we included unspported pacakges too
[23:17] <LaserJock> but we can't support them
[23:17] <nubae> we dont need to support them, I cant believe for a moment that all kubuntu packages are supported
[23:17] <LaserJock> sure they are
[23:18] <nubae> I bet there are kubuntu packages that are not supported officially by canonical
[23:18] <LaserJock> not in the seeds
[23:18] <LaserJock> if it's in the Kubuntu seeds it's officially supported
[23:18] <nubae> right so basically edubuntu IS the officially supported educational ubuntu
[23:18] <LaserJock> right
[23:19] <LaserJock> or at least that's how it's traditionally been
[23:19] <nubae> well, that shows sugar out the window...
[23:19] <nubae> shows/throws
[23:20] <LaserJock> well, that's why we gotta work on it :-)
[23:21] <nubae> and who chooses what is officially supported by canonical then?
[23:21] <LaserJock> well, one has to be a bit careful here
[23:21] <nubae> u know what I think is maybe confusing it for me, is that within edubuntu, there is no one officially working for canonical
[23:22] <LaserJock> there used to be though
[23:22] <nubae> kubuntu there is
[23:22] <LaserJock> but yeah
[23:22] <nubae> yes, but not now
[23:22] <LaserJock> but that doesn't so much change Canonical support directly
[23:22] <nubae> that was of course a benefit
[23:23] <LaserJock> what we need are developers
[23:23] <nubae> well it does in a way... its like canonical pulling out of the educational part... or at least edubuntu
[23:23] <LaserJock> whether they come from Canonical or not is somewhat irrelevant
[23:23] <LaserJock> well, in a lot of ways they have
[23:23] <nubae> yeah and who wants to get caught up in it if its 'only canonically officially supported'?
[23:24] <nubae> I just dont see the attraction to a dev
[23:24] <LaserJock> to work on software we love
[23:24] <nubae> yeah, that we dont get to choose???
[23:24] <LaserJock> I like helping people and I think education is important
[23:24] <LaserJock> sure we do
[23:24] <nubae> me too
[23:24] <nubae> incredibly important...
[23:25] <nubae> but we should be choosing what edubuntu is and whats in it
[23:25] <LaserJock> the problem is that there are several, sometimes intertwined layers here when you talk about "support"
[23:25] <LaserJock> we can
[23:26] <LaserJock> we can't tell Canonical what to do, i.e. what it will or won't support
[23:26] <LaserJock> but that's not everything, in fact it's fairly small
[23:27] <nubae> you're right, but we should be able to choose what we package/recommend
[23:27] <nubae> the 2 being different
[23:27] <LaserJock> we do determine that
[23:27] <LaserJock> any Core Developer can change the seeds
[23:27] <nubae> becoming the owner of the package... thats not a solution
[23:27] <LaserJock> and anybody can file a Main Inclusion Report to move a package from Universe to Main
[23:27] <LaserJock> well, we do that anyway
[23:28] <LaserJock> that's what being a Core Developer is all about
[23:28] <LaserJock> maintaining packages
[23:28] <nubae> yeah, but here we are talking about a small amount of devs and many many useful packages
[23:28] <LaserJock> yep
[23:29] <LaserJock> so we're spread pretty darn thin
[23:29] <nubae> the user in the end suffers, because of rigid politics that shouldn't really apply to edubuntu
[23:29] <nubae> thats my opinion anyway
[23:29] <LaserJock> it's not politics!
[23:29] <nubae> ok facts then :-)
[23:29] <LaserJock> the fact of the matter is that software doesn't just magically work on itself
[23:29] <LaserJock> somebody has got to do it
[23:29] <LaserJock> some software is better than others
[23:30] <nubae> look, there is no drive for a current dev to put in any more packages in edubuntu, because they cannot maintain it... that makes total sense... so edubuntu will not grow
[23:30] <LaserJock> sure there's drive
[23:30] <nubae> nah, if u cant, dont have the time, u can't
[23:30] <LaserJock> I want to deliver more and better educational content to kids/schools/parents
[23:30] <LaserJock> so we build a community of people
[23:31] <LaserJock> that's how this works, more people = more software maintained
[23:31] <LaserJock> if people want Universe software then it's certainly out there for them, and the MOTU do a pretty decent job of maintaining it
[23:32] <nubae> so the process right now would be... become a package manager, then support the app of your choice, and then suggest it for inclusion into main, before it can even start being edubuntu
[23:32] <nubae> that just seems like a really long, impossible process
[23:32] <LaserJock> no, no
[23:32] <LaserJock> *anybody* can contribute
[23:32] <nubae> I get that... but I'm talking about the apps
[23:32] <LaserJock> sure
[23:32] <LaserJock> there's no reason people can't help out
[23:32] <nubae> why work on an app, if it might not get into edubuntu, or there is such a long procedure for it to happen
[23:33] <LaserJock> well, because it's better for the users?
[23:33] <nubae> its better for the users to get an unmaintained app, than non at all
[23:33] <LaserJock> it's really not all that hard to get something into Edubuntu
[23:33] <nubae> not all apps, but some for sure
[23:33] <LaserJock> sure sure
[23:33] <nubae> childsplay is a good example
[23:33] <LaserJock> but it's in Universe, where it is maintained by MOTU
[23:34] <nubae> yeah, but not in edubuntu
[23:34] <Ahmuck> perhaps we need a recomended list
[23:34] <LaserJock> not currently no
[23:34] <Ahmuck> and default install, anything beyond that is up to the user to find out what's wrong
[23:34] <nubae> this is the part I'm still confused with.... there are many really good apps in uni, which I see no reason shouldn't be listed for edubuntu
[23:34] <LaserJock> nubae: then lets get them in!
[23:35] <Ahmuck> how
[23:35] <Ahmuck> how do we get them in?
[23:35] <Ahmuck> do they all have to be free?
[23:35] <LaserJock> we file a Main Inclusion Report
[23:35] <LaserJock> yes
[23:35] <Ahmuck> so for non-free apps we need a sepearte "recomended but not free" apps list
[23:35] <LaserJock> we need to do a security review and file out "paperwork"
[23:35] <nubae> ok, maybe getting into main is easier than I think...
[23:35] <LaserJock> ok, but hang on a sec
[23:35] <Ahmuck> the security review is to prevent someone from inserting a rouge app
[23:35] <nubae> but I was led to assume it isnt
[23:36] <LaserJock> the problem I see is everybody is wanting to make big lists of software
[23:36] <LaserJock> when we can't even maintain the small list we have now
[23:36] <nubae> but many apps in uni are better maintained than these because there is MOTU
[23:36] <LaserJock> I think it's wise to start small, and work our way out
[23:36] <nubae> I agree
[23:36] <LaserJock> nubae: right, and that should *not* be the case
[23:37] <LaserJock> our apps should be better maintained
[23:37] <nubae> we had thin client manager listed for 2 releases even though its totally unsupported and dead
[23:37] <nubae> in its place I'd rather see a uni maintained edu app
[23:37] <LaserJock> it's not dead, it's just been replaced
[23:37] <nubae> dead to me = not workign
[23:37] <nubae> which it didnt
[23:37] <LaserJock> it works in jaunty I believe
[23:37] <LaserJock> ogra fixed up some stuff
[23:38] <LaserJock> in any case, that was an "in house" project that kinda died
[23:38] <nubae> well still... dead for 2 releases
[23:38] <LaserJock> but when people take off that kind of thing happens
[23:38] <nubae> its just an example... something that was in Uni wouldnt end up like that
[23:38] <nubae> right
[23:38] <LaserJock> sure it would
[23:38] <LaserJock> for thin-client-manager it would have been just the same in Universe
[23:38] <nubae> it might, but then next release, u pull it
[23:39] <LaserJock> but a top priority needs to be building developer community
[23:39] <nubae> yeah which is easier if there are more apps in edubuntu
[23:39] <LaserJock> we gotta have people working on the software
[23:39] <nubae> sounds like a chicken and egg situation
[23:39] <Ahmuck> might i recommend only putting in stable for edubuntu
[23:39] <LaserJock> somewhat yes
[23:40] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: how do you mean?
[23:40] <nubae> but the difference here is that both devs and users loose out... edubuntu remains small, a shadow of what it could be
[23:40] <Ahmuck> well, a stable app is one that works
[23:40] <nubae> Ahmuck: that is the idea right now, edubuntu has only apps which are in the main branch
[23:41] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: that is exactly what Main is supposed to be, well-working software that is maintained, stable, secure, and relatively bug free
[23:41] <nubae> but the problem is that its too conservative an approach, there are not enough apps
[23:41] <LaserJock> more apps doesn't really help us though
[23:41] <nubae> but in reality its not like that for edubuntu due to the small dev community
[23:41] <nubae> it helps growth
[23:41] <LaserJock> how?
[23:41] <nubae> more people use it, more likely to get dev interested
[23:42] <LaserJock> people aren't all that likely to use it if it's poorly maintained
[23:42] <nubae> otherwise the way would be.... I like app such and such
[23:42] <nubae> in order to work on it officialy, it needs to get into main first
[23:42] <nubae> thats just backwards
[23:42] <LaserJock> that's not how it is
[23:42] <LaserJock> *anybody* can work on *any* package
[23:43] <nubae> right they would not be working on an edubuntu package
[23:43] <LaserJock> the issue is if the work needs sponsorship or not
[23:43] <LaserJock> ok, but I don't seen anybody out there
[23:43] <LaserJock> it's just me as far as I can tell
[23:43] <LaserJock> well, and stgraber on LTSP
[23:44] <nubae> right... which is why I'm saying why not focus on the stuff u have on your plate, and get the MOTUS to help with other apps
[23:44] <nubae> and in the meantime, build the community
[23:44] <LaserJock> because MOTU doesn't have time for it
[23:44] <LaserJock> but yeah
[23:45] <LaserJock> in a while (not sure how long exactly) Main and Universe won't exactly exist, which will probably get you closer to what you want
[23:45] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure how to build a community that people don't want to participate in
[23:46] <nubae> look, why dont we at least look at the edu apps that are currently in universe, and see what would be cool for inclusion, like a recommended list... we dont even have to put it in the seeds
[23:46] <nubae> who said they dont wanna participate, I wanna particicpate
[23:46] <LaserJock> sure, no problem
[23:46] <LaserJock> well, to be frank, education is the worst area I've seen for getting people to actually do anything
[23:46] <LaserJock> people just don't step up very often or very much
[23:47] <LaserJock> and I totally understand that
[23:47] <nubae> and I know at least another 5 other people... but I think not everyone can make major commitments like becoming package manager of every app they recommend
[23:47] <LaserJock> but it's a real struggle
[23:47] <LaserJock> no, no
[23:47] <LaserJock> you don't have to
[23:47] <LaserJock> we work as a team
[23:47] <LaserJock> you do what you can, when you can
[23:47] <nubae> ok, well we still have that strategy doc to look at too :-)
[23:47] <LaserJock> but people need to help
[23:48] <nubae> yeah I get that, maybe a list should be made
[23:48] <nubae> ask what people want to work on
[23:48] <LaserJock> I need to figure out how to make Edubuntu appealing to 1) current devs and 2) educators who can become devs
[23:49] <nubae> well there needs to be a procedure too
[23:49] <nubae> its not that simple to get involved right now... well... not simple enough
[23:49] <LaserJock> right, it's not terribly simple
[23:49] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if I can do a whole lot about that :(
[23:50] <nubae> well what do u tell someone when they ask what shall/can I do to help with edubuntu
[23:50] <LaserJock> one thing that I've thought about is getting an MOTU Education team
[23:50] <nubae> and most of these will say, I have little programming experience
[23:51] <LaserJock> right
[23:51] <LaserJock> the problem right now is we don't exactly have a lot of useful infrastructure for people to plug in to
[23:51] <LaserJock> back in the day it was a heck of a lot easier
[23:52] <LaserJock> right now I'd say the big things are 1) bugs 2) documentation 3) website
[23:52] <nubae> well I've heard it said several times that installing edubuntu-addon was pointless
[23:52] <nubae> because it didn't really include a functional educational desktop
[23:52] <LaserJock> ok
[23:53] <LaserJock> we gotta take very little steps though
[23:53] <LaserJock> starting from where we are at right now
[23:53] <nubae> yeah I see that
[23:54] <LaserJock> so what kind of things can I/we do to help people get involved?
[23:55] <nubae> well next meeting get a kinda roll call and find out who would want to be involved with what
[23:55] <nubae> and list it somewhere
[23:56] <nubae> maybe make it easy to do the same via a wiki/online form on the website
[23:57] <nubae> or even form to email
[23:57] <LaserJock> should there be a list of tasks that need somebody to work on them?
[23:57] <nubae> yeah that too
[23:57] <nubae> and just state, this is not an exhaustive list
[23:58] <LaserJock> normally that would be on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
[23:58] <nubae> i think that link would scare people away
[23:58] <nubae> especially with the work devel in it :-)
[23:58] <nubae> s/work/word
[23:58] <LaserJock> hmmpf
[23:58] <LaserJock> it shouldn't
[23:59] <nubae> reaction might be, I'm not a developer, thats not for me
[23:59] <LaserJock> but I guess it could, it's somewhat hard for me to think like a newb anymore :(
[23:59] <nubae> right
[23:59] <nubae> very few people like to call themselves devs
[23:59] <nubae> or dare
[23:59] <LaserJock> hmm
[23:59] <LaserJock> in Ubuntu we use if very loosely


[01:09] <IceyEC> I'm trying to setup the ceph charm for development of a charm that will connect to it, I try: `juju deploy -n 3 ceph`
[01:09] <IceyEC> and then juju status shows that each node is at: ` 'hook failed: "mon-relation-changed"'`
[01:11] <IceyEC> looks like I need to add the monitor-secret and fsid, adding those now
[11:56] <IceyEC> I'm looking at the Charmhelpers code, specifically, https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~charm-helpers/charm-helpers/devel/view/head:/charmhelpers/contrib/storage/linux/ceph.py#L292
[11:57] <IceyEC> am I correct that this cannot work on LXC?
[11:57] <IceyEC> I'm developing with the local provider and am getting modprobe errors, digging in it looks like modprobe is not supported in LXC containers
[11:57] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: you are correct, at the moment ceph requires block devices and there are none in the LXC/Local provider with Juju
[11:57] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: you can use KVM instead of LXC for the backend to local provider
[11:58] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: that way modprobe would work as epected
[11:58] <IceyEC> ok, thanks
[11:59] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: I see zero docs on this, but lp|conference and mbruzek have done this recently
[12:03] <IceyEC> cool, I'm trying to add ceph support to the solr-jetty charm and discovered that it isn't letting me setup the block device :-P
[12:04] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: heh, yeah, ceph on local provider def does not work in LXC, might work in KVM, jamespage would probably know better
[12:05] <jamespage> IceyEC, marcoceppi: actually it does
[12:05] <marcoceppi> :O
[12:05] <IceyEC> sounds great :)
[12:05] <jamespage> you can provide a directory name as a block device - e.g. /tmp/osd
[12:05] <jamespage> for example
[12:05] <IceyEC> in lxc?
[12:05] <IceyEC> because, I did that
[12:05] <jamespage> IceyEC, yes
[12:05] <IceyEC> /var/ceph was the device name I gave it, and it still tries to do modprobe
[12:05] <jamespage> IceyEC, the ceph charm does?
[12:06] <IceyEC> yeah
[12:06] <IceyEC> well
[12:06] <IceyEC> no
[12:06]  * jamespage looks
[12:06] <IceyEC> I'm using the code that the MySQL charm uses to configure Ceph
[12:06] <IceyEC> which is almost the same as the CharmHelpers code for Ceph
[12:06] <jamespage> IceyEC, right - that does not work under LXC at all
[12:06] <IceyEC> both of which do hit modprobe in the configure function
[12:06] <IceyEC> so, I can setup cep but I cannot use it under lxc?
[12:07] <jamespage> IceyEC, its a limitation of running in a LXC container - you can't modprobe or suchlike
[12:07] <IceyEC> yeah, will just reconfigure to use kvm :)
[12:07] <jamespage> IceyEC, ack - that would work
[12:07] <IceyEC> sounds good :)
[12:07] <jamespage> even if its a bit heavier on resources
[12:07] <IceyEC> hope to have something for you and arosales soon ;-)
[12:07] <IceyEC> this machine has 32G of RAM, dual dual core XEON's
[12:08] <IceyEC> have resources to deal with :)
[12:08] <g3naro> jooooojooooo
[12:08] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: I'll swing mbruzek your way when he comes online, should be able to get you the short of the long of KVM as local provider
[12:10] <IceyEC> cool, thanks marcoceppi
[12:15] <suchvenu> Hi Matt
[12:16] <mbruzek> Hello
[12:16] <suchvenu> I got a review comment on  Performance for DB2 charm
[12:16] <suchvenu> Can you please help me to understand that better
[12:16] <mbruzek> Sure!
[12:17] <marcoceppi> mbruzek: when you get a second, can you share how to use KVM as the provisioner for local with IceyEC? They're having some modprobe issues with LXC and IIRC you addressed that in docker with KVM on local
[12:17] <mbruzek> When I deployed db2 on amazon the disk space on the VM was highly consumed.
[12:18] <suchvenu> ok
[12:18] <mbruzek> suchvenu:  I don't remember the exact number but it was nearly out of hard drive space.  With Juju you can request larger instances with constraints, but there was also a /mnt directory that had 190GB free
[12:19] <suchvenu> I checked the DB2 and found that we an create Databases and logs to using "create database db name on <>" commands
[12:19] <suchvenu> Is that the one you are looking for ?
[12:19] <mbruzek> suchvenu: I also know that the minimum Amazon instance has low RAM 1.7GB.  I don't know how much RAM DB2 needs to run at optimum performance
[12:20] <suchvenu> ok
[12:20] <mbruzek> suchvenu: No, I was thinking if the README could make some suggestions on disk size and or RAM size for the best performance of DB2
[12:20] <suchvenu> ok
[12:21] <mbruzek> suchvenu: I don't know where the database is written on that charm,but if the database gets used and grows I fear the filesystem on those small instances will be totally consumed.
[12:21] <mbruzek> Running out of disk space is a very difficult problem to diagnose, because even log files can not be written.
[12:21] <suchvenu> okk
[12:22] <suchvenu> So you are suggesting to add the RAM and disk size requirements in Readme ?
[12:22] <mbruzek> suchvenu: The juju constraints you can set are root-disk (file system) and mem (RAM)
[12:23] <mbruzek> Yes to what is recommended.  And perhaps a warning that an install of DB2 will consume a large percentage of free space if the constraints are not used.
[12:25] <suchvenu> okk
[12:25] <suchvenu> All these in README, right ?
[12:26] <marcoceppi> IceyEC: there are docs! Just in devel still: https://jujucharms.com/docs/devel/config-KVM
[12:26] <suchvenu> Ok Thanks mbruzek... I will add the details in README and push it back for review.
[12:26] <mbruzek> suchvenu: Yes find out what is recommended and put that in the README.  But if we find that the small instance is not sufficient we should list that as well in the RADME
[12:27] <IceyEC> heh, I have that open already ;-) following along, will hopefully have ceph mounts purring along shortly :) thanks marcoceppi
[12:27] <suchvenu> Ok
[12:32] <mbruzek> suchvenu: Also consider deleting the unneeded RPMs or packages for other architectures in the charm code
[13:58] <IceyEC> so, I've got it creating the block device, but when I try to mount it with charmhelpers.contrib.charmsupport.volumes.configure_volume, I'm getting `mount: block device /dev/rbd1 is write-protected, mounting read-only\nmount: you must specify the filesystem type`
[14:08] <IceyEC> something I broke removing other code? possibly!
[14:40] <jcastro> hey beisner
[14:40] <beisner> hi jcastro, back in 1 min..
[14:41] <jcastro> ack, I want to talk about: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1373862
[14:41] <mup> Bug #1373862: MySQL doesn't deploy due to oversized dataset <mysql (Juju Charms Collection):Fix Committed by marcoceppi> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1373862>
[14:47] <beisner> jcastro, howdy, back
[14:48] <jcastro> yeah so basically, people keep running into this issue when trying Juju on LXC
[14:49] <beisner> jcastro, right.  i totally understand.
[14:49] <beisner> jcastro, but imho, we can't just change a long-standing default value.
[14:50] <jcastro> iirc, all we did was just pick a percentage
[14:50] <marcoceppi> clint chose a default over 3 years ago
[14:50] <marcoceppi> Oracle says that default is not a sane value
[14:50] <marcoceppi> and provided us with a better value
[14:50] <marcoceppi> I understand teh upgrade delemia, I want to see if Juju does teh right thing or not
[14:51] <beisner> jcastro, right, but that makes it even more important to discuss.  we have an established expectation with a fairly large user base, who are accustomed to that default value.
[14:51] <jcastro> beisner: sure, happy to do that, maybe we should do it on the list?
[14:51] <jcastro> and I'd like to counter that we keep losing users when they try juju and it doesn't work
[14:52] <arosales> IceyEC, good to hear :-)
[14:53] <jcastro> beisner: should I bring it up on the list? I am curious as to what would happen during upgrades
[14:53] <beisner> jcastro, marcoceppi - here's a use case to consider:
[14:54] <beisner> i'm joe admin and company X.  i have a couple of juju-deployed database servers with 256GB of ram (the charm's established behavior gives mysql 204GB).  i like it.  i need to add more servers at another site location in a new juju environment.
[14:54] <jamespage> rick_h_, urulama: hey - fyi I've finally got the openstack-base bundle updated and in-store
[14:54] <beisner> joe will now have 128 MB whereas he had 204GB for his service, unless he changes his ways.
[14:55] <marcoceppi> beisner: so beacuse we made a mistake 3 years ago we can't fix it? Sounds like Joe should be using bundles and explicitly setting values. While the GUI won't export default config options, it doesn't mean that shouldn't change
[14:55] <jcastro> so I suspect someone using it in production is setting explicit values for everything with like a yaml file, but I could be wrong
[14:55] <beisner> marcoceppi, i don't necessarily disagree.  arbitrary value setting stinks.
[14:56] <beisner> jcastro, could be.
[14:56] <marcoceppi> beisner: the way you've set up this defense means that no default values should really ever be changed ever
[14:56] <beisner> i do think it merits this type of convo, and advanced notice before committing, if that is what is decided (and i can be completely fine with that).
[14:57] <jcastro> ok cool, I'll summarize your examples and post nowish
[14:57] <jcastro> beisner: marco and I are on a mission today to crush papercut charm bugs
[14:57] <jamespage> jcastro, hey - we've discussed having the percentage still - but capping at a sane max based on 'defaults'
[14:57] <beisner> marcoceppi, kind of yeah.  we try very hard to never change default behavior in the openstack charms for this reason.   reason:  any time you alter default behavior, you risk borking someone.
[14:58] <beisner> marcoceppi, not to say it doesn't happen, or can't happen.  just raising the "we should talk about this" flag.
[14:58] <marcoceppi> jamespage: there may well be databases big enough to need 28GB of the 32G it's installed on
[14:58] <marcoceppi> for innodb-buffer
[14:58] <jamespage> marcoceppi, sure
[14:59] <jamespage> marcoceppi, I was thinking like 80% or 32G, whichever is smaller
[14:59] <marcoceppi> jamespage: still won't fix the container story
[14:59] <marcoceppi> or local provider issue
[14:59] <beisner> marcoceppi, setting the value will fix both, no?
[14:59] <jamespage> marcoceppi, the only thing that will fix the container story is lxcfd
[14:59] <jamespage> lxcfs
[14:59] <jamespage> rather
[15:00] <marcoceppi> jamespage beisner I'd even be find with having this set to the default innodb-buffer-pool-size from distro, which might be the best way to solve this
[15:00] <marcoceppi> jamespage: true, can't wait for that
[15:00] <jamespage> marcoceppi, agreed
[15:01] <beisner> marcoceppi, yeah keeping somewhat in line with the underlying product's default sounds like a good thing, generally speaking.
[15:02] <jcastro> ok, mail sent to list.
[15:03] <jcastro> that way we have more people chime in
[15:04] <marcoceppi> jamespage beisner FWIW, deafult innodb_buffer_pool_size is ~134MB
[15:04] <marcoceppi> I'll update my merge proposal to reflect this, the readme to outline it better, and the tests to work with the update (while teh discussion on the list happens)
[15:05] <jcastro> marcoceppi: man, I was really hoping we could have just lit the thing on fire and walked away in slow motion with dramatic music playing.
[15:09] <marcoceppi> jcastro beisner: if a value is marked as "default" in juju, on upgrade it gets the new default value
[15:09] <marcoceppi> i hate everything
[15:09] <beisner> marcoceppi, bahh.  i was hoping the opposite.
[15:10] <marcoceppi> I guess mysql will just be forever broken until lxcfs
[15:11] <jcastro> hah man, awesome.
[15:11] <marcoceppi> I just wish there was a way in upgrade-charm to mark configuration as no longer default
[15:13] <jcastro> marcoceppi: ok, so we need to ask core for it to behave the other way
[15:13] <marcoceppi> jcastro: not exactly
[15:14] <marcoceppi> there is no right answer to this, except to give the charm more control over aspects like configuration
[15:14] <jcastro> I am fine with anything that isn't "leave it broken until lxcfs"
[15:14] <marcoceppi> jcastro: well, asking for a feature like this in core is basically tandamount to that
[15:20] <hazmat> you can try and detect running in the container and the self cgroup, but juju doesn't touch cgroup constraints unfortunately so there's no valid value to assume (even with lxcfs).
[15:20] <hazmat> there's a long standing bug to have juju set constraints on the container per the service constraints
[15:21] <marcoceppi> hazmat: I wonder if moving from direct lxc to lxd for local provider would help this
[15:21] <hazmat> marcoceppi: in and of itself, probably not.. juju needs to set constraints on the container else any given container will still see host resources as its own.
[15:21] <marcoceppi> just gaining an actual bootstrap node on local would be a win, and I think thumper is working on this, but I'm not sure if it would address the constraints/cgroup issue
[15:21] <hazmat> marcoceppi: moving to lxd has other benefits though, like making machine 0 not special
[15:22] <hazmat> marcoceppi: i still use my jury rigged lxc scripts for local dev, just so i can avoid the machine 0 as host setup that local provider currently tries.
[15:22] <marcoceppi> hazmat: ack, I'll go find the bug and see if I can't get it a little higher in priority
[15:22] <hazmat> marcoceppi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1323446
[15:22] <mup> Bug #1323446: constraints on local provider <constraints> <local-provider> <lxc> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1323446>
[15:23] <marcoceppi> jcastro: ^
[15:24] <jcastro> looking, sorry was on the phone
[15:44] <rick_h_> jamespage: cool, I know the team was getting a fix in for the nested lxc issue and a new deployer/gui/quickstart to make sure that works as well.
[15:44] <rick_h_> jamespage: I'm on holiday today but don't hesitate to grab frankban or Makyo if anything isn't right there.
[15:44] <Makyo> o/
[15:56] <jamespage> its all cool ta
[15:56] <jamespage> rick_h_, enjoy your holiday
[20:03] <pmatulis> with HA, how does the juju master get associated with the mongodb master? is it random (among the ones which are about to be created) or is it always the initial single state server?
[21:42] <hatch> is there a way for me to get a single configuration value from the cli?
[21:42] <rick_h_> hatch: can't you juju get the single option?
[21:42] <thumper> yes
[21:43] <thumper> hatch: environment or service?>
[21:43] <hatch> service
[21:43] <hatch> you can't according to the 'get' docs
[21:44] <rick_h_> hatch: yea, see thats in the docs. I might be thinking of the charmhelpers in python :/
[21:44] <rick_h_> thumper: service config for a single config item
[21:44] <rick_h_> thumper: help is showing nothing to help at that level
[21:44] <hatch> I suppose it's partially irrelevant, my issue is that I have to put keys into a config option (because juju doesn't allow files as configuration options)
[21:44] <thumper> rick_h_, hatch: wow... that sucks
[21:44] <hatch> but when I write them out to the file they are malformed
[21:44] <thumper> you should be able to
[21:45] <rick_h_> thumper: yea, seems like it'd be an obvious one but just adding that as an narg fails
[21:45] <thumper> also, the format difference between 'juju get' and 'juju get-env' is jarring
[21:45] <rick_h_> thumper: gotta love a consistent api :/
[21:45]  * thumper sighs
[21:45] <thumper> we suck
[21:46]  * thumper adds a tech-debt bug
[21:46] <hatch> basically what I'm trying to determine if the `config-get mykey` returns the value formatted, the key file ends up with a bunch of \'s instead of real newlines
[21:47] <rick_h_> hatch: hmm, I know we use the @filename.txt thing in a charm script to get a file contents read in properly
[21:47] <rick_h_> hatch: maybe need to lok at that?
[21:47] <hatch> rick_h_: I have to set about 15 config values so I have a yaml file which I provide when deploying
[21:48] <rick_h_> hatch: ah ok
[21:48] <hatch> rick_h_: so you're saying to do it manually for each key?
[21:48] <rick_h_> hatch: no
[21:49] <hatch> I think that the `config-get mykey` is returning the value with \'s for newlines
[21:59] <hatch> from within the service unit is there any way for me to open up a window that's in a 'hook environment' ?
[22:00] <rick_h_> open up a window?
[22:00] <rick_h_> e.g. debug-hooks or dhx?
[22:00] <rick_h_> let you get a terminal in a hook context
[22:00] <hatch> right but I have to drop out to my normal machine, set up debug hooks, then go make a config change or something
[22:01] <hatch> then it'll pop up
[22:01] <hatch> I feel like I should be able to do something like... juju ssh service/0 --hook-context
[22:02] <rick_h_> check out charmhelpers contrib? does dhx do it?
[22:02] <hatch> nope :)
[22:02] <hatch> it does some cool things like allowing you to customize a window
[22:03] <hatch> but not let you actually open one in the hook context
[22:04] <rick_h_> well, debug-hooks + config change it is :P
[22:04] <hatch> yeah....I've just done a few of these 'simple' charms and have noticed a lot of small pain points that start to add up
[22:05] <rick_h_> yea, have to see/add them to the eco list they've had on charming pain points.
[22:05] <rick_h_> hatch: maybe some use of juju-run can help? isn't that in a hook context or is it not? I can't recall
[22:05] <hatch> it is when you're executing a file (running the hook file works) but not when you're passing a command odly enough
[23:36] <marcoceppi> hatch: there's no way
[23:36] <marcoceppi> welcome to the wonderful world of the developer experience
[23:37] <marcoceppi> you have to trigger a hook to get the hooke context in juju, and the only way to do that is with with debug hooks or using juju-run (but that's not an interactive session)


[04:49] <Laibsch> Hi, how can I see bugs that are fixed in the latest release, but are marked nominated for hardy, for example?
[04:51] <Hobbsee> with difficulty
[04:51] <Laibsch> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/
[04:51] <Laibsch> Just found that
[04:52] <Laibsch> Clicking on the Name of the release on the nominated line
[04:52] <Hobbsee> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu with the series down the side will work, but will give you no guarentee of what's fixed in a later release.
[04:52] <Laibsch> Thanks, Hobbsee
[04:52] <Hobbsee> advanced search doesn't seem to cater for that
[04:52] <Hobbsee> y/w
[04:54] <Laibsch> Hobbsee: "series down the side"
[04:54] <Laibsch> ?
[04:54] <Hobbsee> right hand side panel, towards the bottom
[04:54] <Hobbsee> (i think you'd already found that, because it takes you to the link you'd found)
[07:39] <Laibsch> Hi
[07:41] <Laibsch> I wonder if somebody has an idea how to replace my "universal one-liner" for compiling foreign packages and upload them to a particular series in my PPA (question 51583 which has been broken by bug 315643)
[11:02] <mangilimic> Hi! I've come across to bug #324757 . The user is complaining about a package missing in mirror http://nl.archive.ubuntu.com . I've checked, for example, another italian mirror and it has the missing package! Which is the best way to handle such a kind of problem?
[11:02] <mangilimic> Thanks in advance
[11:06] <hyperair> mangilimic: you report to the affected mirror admin?
[11:07] <hyperair> mangilimic: you should probably set the bug report status to invalid, and report to the mirror admin
[11:07] <mangilimic> hyperair: I thought that it was the better decision, but I don't know how to contact the admin of that mirror.
[11:07] <hyperair> hmm
[11:07] <mangilimic> hyperair
[11:07] <hyperair> contact the person who registerd the mirror
[11:07] <mangilimic> is there a list of admins?
[11:07] <hyperair> wait
[11:07] <hyperair> nl is what, netherlands?
[11:08] <mangilimic> hyperair: I think so!
[11:09] <hyperair> mangilimic: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+mirror/bit.nl.archive.ubuntu.com
[11:10] <mangilimic> hyperair: i've found also an email address<EMAIL_ADDRESS>. Thank you!
[11:10] <hyperair> mangilimic: np
[11:12] <hyperair> mangilimic: contacting the loco team should be fine as well. in singapore, we archive admins are members of the loco team, and i'd imagine it be the same elsewhere
[11:14] <mangilimic> hyperair: I'll contact the admin of the mirror first, in case I don't get a reply I'll contact the members of the loco team! Thanks for your suggestions!
[11:14] <hyperair> mangilimic: =) no problem
[11:24] <stooj> Thanks for your help today tjaalton
[13:47] <EagleScreen> suspend to RAM is broken for me in 2.6.27-11, but works well in 2.6.27-9
[15:13] <bddebian> Boo
[16:11] <BUGabundo> I'm looking for Luke Yelavich aka themuso !
[16:13] <pedro_> BUGabundo: /whois is your friend
[16:15] <BUGabundo> can I get you guys opinion on this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/322374/comments/33 ?
[16:33] <jpds> pedro_: How's Berlin?
[16:36]  * hacktick is in Berlin :)
[16:36] <pedro_> jpds: good good, cold as the north pole :-P
[16:37] <pedro_> well not that much, but i was having an awesome summer in my place
[16:37] <pedro_> 35ºC or so and here is totally the opposite
[16:38] <jpds> pedro_: Ouch..
[16:47] <calc> bdmurray: did the graphs die?
[16:47] <calc> bdmurray: erm the complete-graphs graphs
[19:19] <allquixotic> Am I the only one having trouble with the Jaunty default "Networks" widget, in Kubuntu, to connect to wireless? It's doing the famous "no-op" -- tell it to connect and it pretends you haven't clicked it
[19:34] <qense> allquixotic: I remember maco saying the same at Identi.ca
[19:48] <maco> qense: what i say?
[19:48] <maco> qense: which of my "bah this isnt working!" dents are we referring to?
[20:02] <qense> am looking it up right now
[20:02] <qense> Identi.ca: maco: @j1mc: cant connect to my WPA network in GNOME, but can in KDE. Other than that, GNOME's fine.
[20:02] <qense> wait
[20:02] <qense> that's GNOME, not KDE
[20:02] <qense> different bug
[20:03] <maco> other direction for allquixotic?
[20:05] <qense> Don't both widgets use the same backend? The bugs could be related.
[20:08] <maco> yes they do
[20:09] <maco> though im wondering if he's new to kde and didnt know hwo to set up using wpa. it doesnt pop up and ask for the key, just fails silently.
[20:09] <qense> ok
[20:09] <maco> took me a bit of playing to figure that out
[20:09] <qense> is that being worked on? It's a bit weird to do nothing.
[20:09] <maco> youre supposed to enter it when you configure the connection
[20:10] <maco> if you dont notice the "next" button (where wep/wpa get configured) and just hit "connect & save" it wont prompt you.
[20:10] <qense> But you don't get a warning when things go wrong? Not even a small notification?
[20:10] <maco> um i dont remember
[20:10] <maco> might say it failed to connect
[20:10] <maco> but i dont remember if it tells you WHY
[20:11] <maco> nm-applet in gnome keeps prompting for the key, which is correctly entered, and then continuously fails.
[20:11] <maco> since i dont know how to use wpa supplicant on the command line, i'm sticking to kde til it works
[20:12] <qense> ok
[20:12] <qense> I hope it will be sorted out soon, it's not good to have bugs in such crucial parts of the desktop.
[20:13] <qense> If only allquixotic would reply :)
[20:14] <maco> allquixotic: yo, ping!
[20:15] <allquixotic> sorry
[20:15] <qense> no point :)
[20:15] <allquixotic> I will save this conversation for later, I need to be somewhere... I will ping you guys later and pick up where I left off, sorry
[20:16] <qense> I get permanent smile on my face if I'll continue with using smilies so often.
[20:16] <qense> that's ok
[20:22] <qense> I've got to go now, I think someone else can help you. Bye!


[03:56] <HelloThere> hello
[03:57] <HelloThere> Someone know how to install powerline fonts?
[12:04] <xubuntu82i> j
[12:05] <xubuntu82i> HELLO?
[12:08] <xubuntu58i> Hello. Is there a way to use netflix on xubuntu?
[17:35] <Aadolf> Greetings. I am in need of assistance. Finally managed to install Xubuntu desktop (17.04, I believe (via minimal CD)) after many hardships, but the bugger won't give me a GUI and I have no idea how to start it.
[17:36] <Aadolf> Startx works on my silly Debian, but this is something else. Everything I try makes it spit ‘not installed’ to my face.
[17:40] <sinewav> Aadolf: you are running Ubuntu? Have you tried running "sudo tasksel" from the command line? You can check the Xubuntu / XFCE options and it will install all the packages required. This might solve the problem.
[17:41] <Aadolf> I did select Xubuntu desktop from the package selection, but the tutorial doesn't tell you anything else. Cheers, let me try it.
[17:42] <shree> i want to install VLC in #xubuntu but there was some dependencies error in  apt installation...
[17:44] <shree> can anyone help me...?
[17:46] <krytarik> shree: You didn't share the error message yet.
[17:46] <shree> vlc : Depends: libgles1-mesa (>= 7.8.1) but it is not going to be installed or
[17:46] <shree>                 libgles1
[17:46] <shree>        Depends: libgles2-mesa (>= 7.8.1) but it is not going to be installed or
[17:46] <shree>                 libgles2
[17:47] <Aadolf> Shree, just a friendly reminder: Not everyone knows how to be of use regarding problem X, nor does everyone stalk the chat 24⁄7.
[17:47] <Aadolf> Just give it time, and someone'll surely help you find all the answers you'll ever need.
[17:47] <shree> ok
[17:51] <Aadolf> 15 % of packages installed.
[17:51] <Aadolf> Guess I'll need a lot more beer...
[19:25] <Aadolf> Oh, bollocks. Sinewav left already.
[19:25] <Aadolf> My Xubuntu just finished re-installing everything it should've installed during the initial installation, and now it works.
[19:25] <Aadolf> If you guys see Sinewav log on later, thank them for me.
[19:26] <Aadolf> Now all that's left for me to do is try to recall how to make a keyboard shortcut to open Terminal, and I'll be set.
[19:26] <Aadolf> Cheers, all of you who even thought of helping me. Cheers, everyone else. Toodles, for all eternity, until I break something again!
[19:27] <Aadolf> And be sure to drink beer.
[20:04] <EL-DIABLO> Hello all
[20:12] <David-A> is there a way to tell policykit or pkexec in a config file: "don't mind this env.var, pass it along please" ?
[20:13] <David-A> or to have policykit or pkexec to load /root/.profile where i've set the vars?
[21:22] <David-A> is 'bump' allowed in this channel?
[21:39] <well_laid_lawn> !bump
[21:40] <well_laid_lawn> seems so but I'd be careful
[21:42] <David-A> ok, then
[21:42] <David-A> bump
[21:43] <well_laid_lawn> just by commenting you bumped...
[21:43] <windblow> apport-gtk consumes 50-100% CPU load whenever a program crash, is this normal behaviour?
[21:43] <windblow> using xubuntu 16.04 LTS
[21:44] <David-A> pump didn't repeat my question from an hour and a half ago. if someone has joined since.
[21:44] <David-A> am i allowed to repeat myself in this channel?
[21:46] <well_laid_lawn> windblow:  programs crashing isn't normal...
[21:47] <windblow> i would report a bug on said program but it isnt consistent enough to be worth a bug report
[21:47] <windblow> (inkscape)
[21:48] <well_laid_lawn> start it from a terminal so you can see an errors
[22:09] <David-A> windblow: i suppose it would use a lot of cpu for a relatively short time, making and analyzing a core dump.
[22:12] <windblow> it isnt further detailed than this, i tried to reproduce it using the same steps but that simply does not happen http://paste.ubuntu.com/25401498/
[22:12] <windblow> its random
[22:18] <well_laid_lawn> sits it's random and no one else is having the same issue I would think your system memory is starting to fail
[23:08] <xubuntu13i> Hi every one
[23:08] <David-A> hi!
[23:10] <xubuntu13i> what's the biggest difference of ubuntu and xubuntu?
[23:11] <Unit193> Xfce rather than Unity.
[23:11] <David-A> xubuntu13i: do you know that ubuntu, xubuntu, kubuntu, lubuntu etc have different Desktop Environments?
[23:13] <xubuntu13i> i choose xubuntu because it is more fast (or light) ?
[23:13] <xubuntu13i> my pc is not too fast x
[23:13] <xubuntu13i> xD
[23:14] <David-A> xubuntu13i: many chose Xfce not only because it is light. it is also very configurable with a balanced set of tools and features.
[23:15] <David-A> xubuntu13i: even lighter is lubuntu, but you may also want to try Ubuntu Mate that should be lighter than ordinary ubuntu, probably about the same as xubuntu.
[23:16] <xubuntu13i> I did some research and I like xubuntu more
[23:17] <xubuntu13i> substantially
[23:17] <xubuntu13i> Thanks David!!
[23:20] <xubuntu13i> xubuntui13


[17:05] <pleia2> tsimonq2: is the lubuntu post going to be appended to extend poll deadline? (adding links to the doc now)
[17:29] <tsimonq2> pleia2: yes it is
[17:29] <tsimonq2> pleia2: could you readd if removed please?
[17:30] <pleia2> tsimonq2: thanks :) didn't remove it, just left a note in the doc, resolved that now
[17:31] <tsimonq2> great :)
[23:20] <tsimonq2> ooh UWN summaries \o/
[23:22] <pleia2> :)


[17:01] <astraljava> Hiya. We're giving it 5, the chair is running late a bit.
[17:03] <holstein> ubuntustudio contributors meeting participants?
[17:03] <astraljava> o/
[17:03] <craigs63> here
[17:03] <holstein> cool... lemme find a few links...
[17:04] <holstein> #startmeeting
[17:04] <meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jan 22 17:04:36 2012 UTC.  The chair is holstein. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[17:04] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:04] <bkerensa> hi
[17:05] <holstein> for the record... give one more o/ to say you are here since i started the bot
[17:06] <astraljava> o/
[17:06] <craigs63> o/
[17:06] <ailo> o/
[17:07] <holstein> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2012January22
[17:07] <holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2012January22
[17:08] <holstein> is ScottL coming?
[17:08] <holstein> anyways.. he is emailing about that first item there
[17:08] <astraljava> Haven't heard of him in a while.
[17:08] <holstein> who is "jon" ?
[17:09] <holstein> #topic old business
[17:09] <astraljava> He has been on the channel a few times.
[17:09] <holstein> "Jon email list for separate meeting for work flows discussion: INPROGRESS"
[17:09] <holstein> not sure about where that is... but its logged ^^
[17:10] <holstein> #topic Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later
[17:10] <astraljava> Yeah, I sent an email regarding that a while back.
[17:10] <holstein> astraljava: i think we are just starting on the every-other-week plan correct?
[17:10] <holstein> cool... so i think that is OK as-is for now
[17:11] <astraljava> holstein: True. For formal meetings, every other week on here.
[17:11] <astraljava> Informal in between, on our own channel.
[17:11] <astraljava> No, the alternating was about different times of the day/week.
[17:11] <holstein> i like it.. and we'll see how effective it becomes
[17:12] <holstein> lets move on then to the LTS discussion
[17:12] <holstein> #topic LTS proposal
[17:12] <holstein> astraljava: do you know where we are on that?
[17:12] <holstein> where is xubuntu on that?
[17:13] <astraljava> Xubuntu was accepted according to the example proposal I linked to.
[17:13] <astraljava> We were supposed to talk about it here.
[17:13] <holstein> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001160.html
[17:13] <holstein> astraljava: you want to take that on right now? and talk us through it?
[17:13] <astraljava> No, I don't, since we're missing our leader.
[17:14] <astraljava> I propose we postpone it for later.
[17:14] <holstein> i think theres time for that as well... lets move on then
[17:15] <holstein> #topic Blueprints statuses
[17:15] <holstein> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
[17:16] <holstein> again, i think ScottL is mostly the one to comment here, but i think he said we were making good progress
[17:16] <holstein> astraljava: do you remember when he said we would have a LIVE image?
[17:16] <astraljava> There's no ETA as far as I know.
[17:16] <astraljava> But it's moving on rapidly.
[17:17] <holstein> either way, those are the links to the blueprints and that is logged... moving on...
[17:17] <holstein> #topic mudita24 version debate
[17:18] <holstein> ailo: were you envolved with this?
[17:18] <astraljava> Yeah, I added that just recently.
[17:18] <ailo> nope
[17:18] <astraljava> There's a newer version in debian sid now.
[17:18] <holstein> http://packages.debian.org/sid/mudita24
[17:18] <holstein> http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/mudita24
[17:18] <holstein> astraljava: can we bring it in?
[17:18] <astraljava> I have this from the debian maintainer:
[17:18] <astraljava> Major changes follow:
[17:18] <astraljava> * Applied patch by James Morris to modernize and remove some deprecated code. * Remove the support for very old GTK+ versions. * Moved to cmake build system. * Fixed wrong alsactl location. Now cmake looks for alsactl. Override
[17:18] <astraljava> with environment variable ALSACTL_PROG. * Added usage info. * Fixed serious fatal X error: height too big.
[17:19] <astraljava> Looks like there are big changes. I'm a bit worried they are too big.
[17:19] <astraljava> Does the team think we can test this enough so that we could sync it?
[17:19] <astraljava> There's still time until Feature Freeze.
[17:19] <astraljava> ..
[17:19] <holstein> astraljava: i cant... i dont have the hardware
[17:19] <ailo> Me and Scott have them
[17:19] <astraljava> I do, but I don't do so much of the stuff that's on work flows.
[17:20] <astraljava> ailo: Do you think you could test it? I could file the sync request, then.
[17:20] <ailo> Install the sid package and test it? Sure
[17:20] <holstein> if we can get it tested, i say go for it... i know folks have that hardware, and i would like the LTS to be supportive of it
[17:21] <len> Sorry, which hw?
[17:21] <astraljava> True. So, make an action for ailo to test it, and we should have a review on the next meeting. Ok?
[17:21] <astraljava> len: ICE1712 chip
[17:22] <len> I have that too.
[17:22] <astraljava> len: Could you provide testing, too+
[17:22] <len> Of what sw?
[17:22] <holstein> #action ailo to test newer mudita24 version for inclusion
[17:22] <meetingology> ACTION: ailo to test newer mudita24 version for inclusion
[17:22] <astraljava> mudita24
[17:22] <len> OK
[17:22] <astraljava> Thanks!
[17:22] <astraljava> ..
[17:23] <holstein> thats all i have on the official list... open items?
[17:23] <holstein> any other business?
[17:23] <holstein> #topic other business
[17:24] <astraljava> Nothing from me.
[17:24] <holstein> i want to say thanks to len for such great testing!
[17:24] <holstein> where are we on UI? on look and feel?
[17:24] <len> sorry im late
[17:25] <holstein> wallpaper? that kind of thing...
[17:26] <holstein> len: you're right on time :)
[17:26] <holstein> len: if you want to officially log some of the things you are commenting on through the list, go for it
[17:27] <len> as in bug?
[17:27] <holstein> len: just so its in the minutes
[17:28] <len> I just files a kernel bug for panic on sd card insert
[17:28] <len> the extra packages are acting up again but should be fixed by now.
[17:28] <holstein> len: were you working on the audio group issue?
[17:28] <holstein> disussing it?
[17:29] <len> Not really. The installer gets it nobody else does.
[17:29] <astraljava> holstein: Sorry, I actually took an action on it.
[17:29] <len> The default for a new user is custom which comes with no perms, instead of desktop
[17:29] <holstein> astraljava: the audio group?
[17:30] <astraljava> Yeah. We talked about it with ailo, and it seems the user created by the installer should be in audio group by default.
[17:30] <holstein> astraljava: and the live user too?
[17:31] <astraljava> I don't know, but maybe.
[17:31] <holstein> i could argure audio and video, though i know the security risks are valid
[17:31] <astraljava> Put an action of it for me, please.
[17:31] <ailo> It would kind of be pointless to have a live user if it didn't belong to audio group
[17:32] <holstein> #action astraljava review and report on user groups (audio, video) and what we need for our installer, and live iso
[17:32] <meetingology> ACTION: astraljava review and report on user groups (audio, video) and what we need for our installer, and live iso
[17:32] <astraljava> Thanks.
[17:32] <holstein> anything else?
[17:33] <len> there is a link missing in the iso too
[17:33] <len> there is no X login without
[17:33] <ailo> I'm contacting Debian multimedia team to discuss the possibility to add audio group administration as a part of installing jackd. It's not the neatest way perhaps, but if it works, it would make things easier
[17:33] <holstein> len: that sounds important... elaborate
[17:34] <holstein> though, im sure our iso is far from complete at this stage..
[17:34] <len> /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop is missing. it should be a link to the other file that is in the same directory
[17:35] <holstein> len: would you mind to keep that on your radar, and check when we get an iso?
[17:35] <len> Pretty hard not to :-)
[17:35] <holstein> #action len check on the missing /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop as it develops
[17:35] <meetingology> ACTION: len check on the missing /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop as it develops
[17:36] <holstein> ailo: i like that... ill action you to report on it?
[17:37] <holstein> #action ailo report on Debian multimedia team contat RE: audio group and jackd installation
[17:37] <meetingology> ACTION: ailo report on Debian multimedia team contat RE: audio group and jackd installation
[17:37] <holstein> anything else?
[17:37] <holstein> #next meeting
[17:37] <holstein> #topic next meeting
[17:38] <holstein> february 5th same time, same channel!
[17:38] <holstein> i cannon chair then... you want me to say its you astraljava ? and you can hand it out as needed
[17:38] <holstein> cannot*
[17:38] <astraljava> Yeah that works.
[17:38] <holstein> #action astraljava to chair next meeting or make arrangments for it to be chaired
[17:38] <meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to chair next meeting or make arrangments for it to be chaired
[17:39] <holstein> #endmeeting
[17:39] <meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jan 22 17:39:48 2012 UTC.
[17:39] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-22-17.04.moin.txt
[17:40] <holstein> thanks len astraljava ailo craigs63 !
[17:41] <astraljava> Thanks Mike for chairing! Others for participating!