[00:01] <pseudonymous> mcphail & popey: I just wanted to thank you guys profusely. Of course it's impossible to say to which extent the bugs are gone, but I've noticed that some really aggravating ones are seemingly absent. Your help was much appreciated
[00:02] <popey> I did nothing.
[00:02] <popey> But thanks :)
[00:03] <mcphail> pseudonymous: I did even less...
[00:03] <popey> ^5
[00:03] <mcphail> pseudonymous: current version are so much better than the old ones
[00:05] <pseudonymous> So far it seems nice. The small lockups which would happen occasionally during browsing haven't manifested themselves yet and my podcast app (podbird) can actually, finally fetch newer episodes of a certain podcast I've dearly missed. Here's to hoping it won't lock up mid-podcast
[00:56] <rbasak> Ah, Bluez5! I've been looking forward to this.
[02:09] <trelane> If I buy an unloked Meizu MX4 can I flash ubuntu on it?  (are they planning to make more of these with ubuntu on it?)
[02:10] <lotuspsychje> is the r350 also ota9 on nexus7?
[02:34] <popey> trelane, hard to know, as some are flashable, some aren't
[02:34] <popey> and you can't tell if it can be before you buy it
[02:34] <trelane> popey, Excellent.
[02:34] <trelane> so russian roulette
[02:34] <trelane> crap
[02:35] <lotuspsychje> trelane: how about buy a second hand nexus4 and flash it
[02:36] <trelane> lotuspsychje, perhaps it's my irrational fear of poor unity performance... but yeah I'd like more horsepower
[02:36] <lotuspsychje> nexus devices perform very well actually
[02:37] <trelane> yeah but octocore :)
[02:37] <lotuspsychje> :p
[02:37] <lotuspsychje> trelane: maybe one day we will get more of choices
[02:37] <trelane> lotuspsychje, I really want to review this thing
[04:51] <MCMic> How long is the update supposed to take? It says «Installation…» with no further details.
[04:54] <MCMic> Oh, that’s a button… It’s not clear ^^
[04:57] <MCMic> The «…» should be removed, it made me think the installation was taking course
[04:59] <MCMic> Yay Thai characters works now :-)
[05:08] <MCMic> Hum, the GPS switch is not in the position panel anymore?
[08:18] <BlackJohnny> hello devs!
[08:18] <BlackJohnny> anyone here that developed the latest version of qtubuntu-camera?
[08:19] <BlackJohnny> i have an issue with the viewfinder resolution after OTA9
[08:20] <BlackJohnny> the resolution i set within my app gets changed
[08:20] <BlackJohnny> and I cant seem to find why
[08:21] <BlackJohnny> I can change it back later and it remains like that but that "later moment" is not so convenient
[08:21] <BlackJohnny> i need to find a better later moment :)
[08:21] <BlackJohnny> qtubuntu-camera or maybe qtvideo-node
[08:21] <zetheroo> got an OTA update this morning :)
[08:22] <zetheroo> Anything I should be looking out for in particular?
[08:22] <BlackJohnny> bugs :)
[08:22] <zetheroo> doh :(
[08:22] <BlackJohnny> i am kidding
[08:22] <BlackJohnny> sorry about that
[08:22] <BlackJohnny> it is actually faster
[08:22] <BlackJohnny> and the icons look better
[08:22] <BlackJohnny> and the engine is more polished
[08:24] <zetheroo> icons look exactly the same
[08:25] <zetheroo> nothing seems faster ..
[08:25] <zetheroo> as for a polished engine .. will have to take your word for it ;)
[08:25] <BlackJohnny> the outer border/shadow is better on top
[08:26] <BlackJohnny> u want a release notes to read some of the things they changed?
[08:26] <zetheroo> sure
[08:26] <MCMic> zetheroo: It’s definitely better on scope switching, it does not refresh the whole scope as before
[08:26] <BlackJohnny> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/ReleaseNotes/OTA-9
[08:26] <BlackJohnny> indeed
[08:26] <BlackJohnny> that too
[08:27] <MCMic> zetheroo: And they added thai support which i badly needed ^^
[08:27] <zetheroo> MCMic: ok, I only use 2 scopes so didn't notice that
[08:27] <zetheroo> MCMic: haha :D
[08:27] <BlackJohnny> the apps scope u use it all the time
[08:27] <BlackJohnny> refresh that
[08:27] <BlackJohnny> pull down
[08:27] <MCMic> These are the changes I was waiting for but there are others.
[08:27] <BlackJohnny> and you will see it
[08:28] <BlackJohnny> it does not flicker on replacing the new content
[08:28] <zetheroo> BlackJohnny: It never flickered before for me
[08:29] <BlackJohnny> zetheroo, flicker maybe is the wrong term. But you could have seen that the icons were replaced/redrawn
[08:29] <zetheroo> ok
[08:29] <vayan> The screen wake on notifications is new ? how to disable that ?
[08:30] <tathhu> No it isn't :o
[08:32] <sil2100> BlackJohnny: hey! As for qtubuntu-camera then one of the people responsible for changes there is Kaleo but not sure if he's around right now
[08:33] <BlackJohnny> sil2100, i have compose an email for him but I need some info quite fast
[08:33] <zetheroo> I am guessing that with 16.04 some major fixes are set to be implemented ... ?
[08:33] <BlackJohnny> sil2100, i have a published app that missbehaves badly
[08:33] <sil2100> Ouch ;/
[08:49] <BlackJohnny> sil2100, oOo ... i now realize who answered me :)
[08:50] <sil2100> BlackJohnny: oh, what do you mean?
[08:50] <BlackJohnny> sil2100, I read all your emails and wait for OTAs :)
[08:50] <sil2100> Glad to hear that :)
[08:50] <sil2100> Thanks!
[08:50] <BlackJohnny> sil2100, I thank you ! :)
[08:55] <tathhu> :P
[08:56]  * tathhu waits working bluetooth on nexus 7
[10:00] <JamesTait> Good morning all!  Happy Thursday, and happy Data Privacy Day! 😃
[10:01] <mzanetti> haha
[10:21] <willl> hi
[10:23] <willl> Is the a chance we see Touch in a WileyFox Swift one day (I can't find if hw/sw prerequisites are met)?
[10:32] <willl> hi
[10:33] <willl> Hi Patricia
[10:43] <popey> willl, if someone ports to it, sure
[10:45] <lotuspsychje> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95OdkWYL61k
[10:45] <lotuspsychje> OTA9 video :p
[10:46] <core_t> nice video!
[10:46] <core_t> so many apps installed!
[10:47] <slvn_> lotuspsychje,  hello! quick question ... could you try negative space on OTA-9 to see if it works. thanks
[10:48] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: what you mean space
[10:48] <lotuspsychje> core_t: pretty nice made indeed heh
[10:49] <slvn_> lotuspsychje, you have an app/game (in the video), called "Negative Space" !
[10:49] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: its not my video, just sharing it here :p
[10:50] <slvn_> ok, sorry !
[10:50] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: but ill try the game on my bq
[10:50] <slvn_> if you have OTA-9, please try it, that would be great !
[10:50] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: are you the writer?
[10:51] <slvn_> yes, with an idea and help of a former colleague
[10:52] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: works like a charm :p
[10:52] <slvn_> can you confirm you have OTA-9 ?
[10:52] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: yes sir, updated to OTA9 yesterday on bq 4.5
[10:53] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: sound & gameplay working nice
[10:53] <slvn_> great ! I was worried ! thanks
[10:54] <lotuspsychje> slvn_: you dont have a device yourself?
[10:54] <slvn_> no ... I used to have a Nexus 10 ...
[10:54] <lotuspsychje> kk
[10:55] <slvn_> i tested on ubuntu on my nexus 10, but that was 1 year ago. then ubuntu get obsolete
[10:56] <slvn_> I just updated it a few month ago, before OTA-8
[10:57] <lotuspsychje> ok
[10:58] <lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/01/best-new-features-in-ubuntu-phone-ota-9
[11:28] <zetheroo> show your support ;)  https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/_1O8YkvZRAQ;context-place=forum/gmail
[11:44] <zetheroo> for google hangouts: https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/hangouts/4hUouBqoYjg;context-place=forum/hangouts
[12:54] <popey> dobey, Saviq what needs doing on bug 1472186 ?
[12:55] <Saviq> popey, releasing it IIUC
[12:55] <Saviq> popey, https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/indicator-network/lib-recommends/+merge/283213
[13:00] <popey> Saviq, who's that fall to?
[13:00] <Saviq> popey, I'd imagine dobey will land it soon
[13:00] <popey> ok
[13:00] <popey> thanks
[13:02] <matv1> this has been bugging me for a long time: most scopes has a search input. previous search results are shown when you start typing. But these search sugestions are from across all scopes.
[13:02] <matv1> In my experience it is seldom usefull to have search sugestions presented that i did in another scope.
[13:03] <matv1> Or is this purposely designed like that?
[13:03] <matv1> didnt find any ubuntu-ux bug on that
[13:40] <mardy> mpt: hi! I saw your changes to the OA wiki, about the account authorization prompts
[13:41] <mpt> mardy, that was quick. :-) I just asked a question on bug 1522360.
[13:41] <mardy> mpt: could you please clarify, how should the dialog appear? Always on the background, or (if the app is focused) on the foreground?
[13:43] <mpt> mardy, the latter. Otherwise you’d be sitting there wondering why nothing was happening
[13:43] <mardy> mpt: but only if the requesting app is on the foreground, right?
[13:44] <mpt> mardy, or if you’re doing nothing else at the time. Tracking that is the window manager’s job.
[13:46] <mardy> mpt: that sounds good; however, I'm afraid that unity8 does not support that yet; would you mind describing the behaviour explicitly in the wiki, so that I can point it to the unity8 guys in case I need to file a bug?
[13:59] <tvoss> mhall119, running 5 late
[14:04] <mpt> mardy, done. <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OnlineAccounts?action=diff&rev2=28&rev1=27>
[14:05] <dobey> popey: pete-woods has that in a silo. but really it's not a supported part of the SDK. the QML API is though i think
[14:05] <mhall119> mariogrip: tvoss having to reboot, will join shortly
[14:06] <mariogrip> mhall119: He's already here
[14:11] <mardy> mpt: thanks! That sounds good; just to be absolutely clear: does it mean that if the dialog appears when you are busy with other apps, it should appear in the background (and maybe trigger the launcher's in, to notify you that a new window has appeared)?
[14:12] <mardy> mpt: and I just commented on bug 1522360, it's long but I hope it's clear
[14:12] <mpt> mardy, no, it doesn’t…
[14:12] <mardy> mpt: mmm... so, what should happen in that case?
[14:13] <mpt> oh, I misunderstood your if as iff :-)
[14:13] <mpt> mardy, yes, in that case it should appear in the background.
[14:13] <mardy> mpt: perfect, thanks :-)
[14:16] <mpt> mardy, thanks for the follow-up. Is it ever/often/always the case that an OAuth-token-requiring service will show you the first Web page in the flow diagram, and then immediately show you the second one?
[14:16] <mpt> e.g. “Register or sign in” and then “Confirm access for Dekko”
[14:37] <davidcalle> sil2100: heya, I'm adding some test packages on my phone and I keep hitting No space left on device, do we have cached images, or anything that I can remove? I've already cleaned up apt cache.
[14:37] <davidcalle> deb packages*
[14:39] <sil2100> hmm, hard to say if there's any easy way to free up space
[14:40] <davidcalle> sil2100: ok, I might end up removing libertine things for now
[14:45] <mardy> mpt: sorry for the late reply; no, it can be either "Register or sign in" or "Confirm access for Dekko", or both. Any combination can happen :-)
[14:46] <mardy> mpt: or actually, I believe that "Confirm access for Dekko" should always be there
[14:47] <mardy> mpt: optionally preceded by the login request (depends on whether the cookies have expired or not)
[14:52] <mpt> oh what fun
[14:55] <awe_> mpt, sorry for not ack'ing your bug link.  I'll try and take a look later on...
[14:56] <mardy> mzanetti: hi! Do you have a minute for a unity8 question?
[14:57] <mzanetti> mardy, sure
[14:57] <mardy> can you please read the second paragraph (starting with "Apart...") after the picture in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OnlineAccounts#App_access ?
[14:58] <mardy> mzanetti: I wonder is unity8 supportsthis kind of spontaneous windows
[14:58] <sil2100> davidcalle: I now learned that in theory you might try removing the mir-test-tools package ;)
[14:58] <sil2100> davidcalle: you could try and see what happens, but it's 35 MB of binaries and the name doesn't seem like it's anything necessary during runtime
[14:59] <davidcalle> sil2100: sudo apt-get purge *-tools *-dev :p
[14:59] <mardy> mzanetti: so, depending on how the user is interacting with the device, we want to have windows spontaneously appearing either in the foreground or in the background
[15:00] <mzanetti> mardy, not sure I completely understand it yet
[15:00] <mzanetti> mardy, what do you mean with appearing in the background?
[15:00] <mzanetti> mardy, so far it seems to me that this is a regular trust prompt
[15:01] <mardy> mzanetti: in most cases (when the requesting process is a regular app) yes, it is
[15:01] <sil2100> ;p
[15:01] <sil2100> davidcalle: ok ok, I wouldn't go as far as that! ;)
[15:01] <mardy> mzanetti: but think of account-polld, when it's checking gmail every 5 minutes but you don't have the gmail webapp or dekko running
[15:02] <mardy> mzanetti: in that case, we have a backround ui-less process which needs to popup a dialog
[15:02] <mardy> mzanetti: and given that you don't have any app window to parent it to, it's parentless
[15:03] <mzanetti> mardy, right... we don't support that atm. and the design guidance was quite clear that there are no parentless dialogs allowed (which we obviously already violate for the wifi password entry)
[15:03] <mzanetti> mardy, but trust prompts can't do that, no :/
[15:04] <mzanetti> mardy, but I would think that the polld stuff should only do polling once it has everything it needs
[15:05] <mardy> mzanetti: true, but at some point the access token will expire
[15:05] <mzanetti> right
[15:05] <mzanetti> odd
[15:05] <mardy> mzanetti: and we don't want account-polld to silently fail
[15:05] <mzanetti> yeah, I totally see that
[15:05] <mzanetti> seems a mismatch in the specs
[15:06] <mardy> mzanetti: how to proceed? Do you want me to file a bug?
[15:06] <mzanetti> mardy, so from a technical point of view, currently all we could do is to trigger a notification that informs the user that stuff expired and he needs to go to settings to re-grant it.
[15:06] <mzanetti> mardy, going forward, I guess we'd need to talk to design what they want
[15:07] <mzanetti> Saviq, you might be interested in this ^^
[15:07] <mardy> mzanetti: we had that, design asked us to remove it :-)
[15:07] <mzanetti> Saviq, in short, if a OA token expires, design wants a trust prompt to pop up and reauth. however, no parentless dialogs etc...
[15:07] <mardy> mzanetti: the rationale was "don't ask the user to do something, do it for him"
[15:08] <Saviq> mzanetti, it looks like we will have parentless dialogs after all
[15:08] <mzanetti> Saviq, for trust prompts too?
[15:08] <Saviq> mzanetti, for whatevers, if that's what design wants
[15:08] <Saviq> mzanetti, it won't be a trust prompt per se
[15:08] <Saviq> as it's not about giving a particular app access to $resource
[15:08] <Saviq> but rather making $resource available to apps that already have access to it
[15:09] <mzanetti> i.e. it should ideally be the exact same dialog. but yeah, I guess we can put it once into a dialog, and the other time in a whatever-popup
[15:09] <mzanetti> s/dialog/trust-prompt/
[15:09] <mzanetti> mardy, ok... so. in short-term, how about "Qt.openUrlExternally("settings://accounts/"). In the long run we'll get you a parentless dialog
[15:12] <mardy> mzanetti: no, I need a bit more context than a link; but I could just start the app myself with the infamous --desktop_file_hint, I guess
[15:13] <tvoss> mardy, just encode it in the url :)
[15:13] <tvoss> mardy, @context, instead of starting it manually
[15:14] <mardy> tvoss: given that it's atemproary solution, I'd rather go for what causes the minimal amount of changes in the code: now we are starting the trusted prompt as a child process, so the easies way is to replace the --socket param with the desktop file
[15:25] <tvoss> mpt, so what happens if authentication fails multiple times?
[15:26] <mpt> tvoss, fails at what step? Inside the Web frame?
[15:27] <tvoss> mpt, in the background, would the prompt open again and again?
[15:31] <mpt> tvoss, {the prompt and the Web dialog that comes after it} don’t go away until either you’ve succeeded, postponed, or denied access
[15:31] <mpt> If you’ve succeeded, no problem
[15:31] <mpt> If you postpone, it comes back later
[15:31] <mpt> If you deny, it doesn’t come back unless/until you go into System Settings and flick the switch
[15:32] <mpt> Hmm, the diagram needs arrows starting from the “Cancel” buttons, doesn’t it :-)
[15:34] <dobey> i don't think we should ever do pop-under for auth
[15:35] <mpt> mardy, tvoss, what do you think should happen if you “Cancel” at the Web frame? Go back to the previous step, or assume you don’t want the app to have access after all?
[15:35] <mpt> The trouble with assuming you don’t want the app to have access is that the service might just be down for a minute
[15:35] <mpt> or your Internet connection might just be too slow to load the Web page
[15:36] <mardy> mpt: I'd treat "Cancel" as "postpone"
[15:37] <mpt> Ok, that works in the (re-)auth case
[15:38] <mpt> And it works in the local access case, if you have the account set up already
[15:40] <mpt> I’m not sure what happens in the no-accounts-of-that-type-yet case
[15:40] <mpt> I guess we need an explicit “Try again later” error for apps to handle?
[15:41] <mpt> as opposed to being denied
[15:42] <dobey> cacnel == didn't log in.
[15:42] <mpt> dobey, when tvoss said “in the background, would the prompt open”, he wasn’t talking about the prompt opening in the background (necessarily), but the auth taking place in the background (e.g. an e-mail checking service)
[15:43] <dobey> mpt: so you think that should cause a pop-up to log in, when the user is doing something else, or nothing at all?
[15:46] <dobey> mpt: imo, we should only ever pop up a log-in dialog in the source of user-directed action where the flow requires an account to continue; if no account is required to proceed further, things should proceed, and provide a button or some other method in the UI to allow the user to direct the system to log into an account
[15:46] <mpt> dobey, the alternatives are worse. Either we silently fail (causing missed messages, appointments etc), or we put up a notification that gives you unavoidably complex instructions of what to do but doesn’t let you do it.
[15:46] <mpt> If you could be more specific than “some other method”, I’d be delighted :-)
[15:47] <dobey> mpt: it is application/dmoain-specific, which is why i said "some other method"
[15:48] <mpt> Give two examples, then?
[15:48] <mpt> (to demonstrate why it needs to be custom)
[15:50] <dobey> well, system-settings update panel for example shows a button (and i think that is appropriate there). background process like calendar sync could show a notification, and the action on the notification could be to proceed through login process, so when user opens the notifications menu and taps on the "You need to sign in to Google for calendar sync" or whatever notification, the user just logs in and goes about their business
[15:50] <mpt> dobey, this is highly analogous to the situation where you are connected to a wi-fi network, and its admin changes the network password. Either you get a dialog to reauth, unrelated to whatever app you happen to be using; or … you aren’t connected any more and might not realize why.
[15:52] <dobey> imo that shouldn't pop up a dialog either
[15:53] <dobey> i mean, we have cases today where that dialog pops up, and the password wasn't changed or anything.
[15:55] <mpt> dobey, you’re thinking of bug 615239, but even when that bug is fixed the situation I’m describing still needs handling
[15:56] <mpt> And the only difference between “a notification [with] the action on the notification … to proceed through login process” and the wi-fi auth dialog, is that the wi-fi auth dialog is less annoying
[15:56] <mpt> because you can put it behind what you’re doing if you want to, which you can’t with a notification.
[15:57] <dobey> mpt: i'm not saying it doesn't need handling. i'm saying that popping up any dialog as the result of a background thing, is poor UX
[15:57] <mpt> And I’m saying it’s annoying, but much less bad any alternative I’ve seen proposed.
[15:57] <mpt> +than
[15:58] <dobey> and wifi auth isn't the only problem there; what happens when vpn auth fails?
[15:58] <ulrichard> It's great that I can finally use the bluetooth keyboard with my aquaris, but where can I configure the keyboard layout?
[15:58] <dobey> well, the wifi is slightly less annoying than a full screen window, sure
[15:58] <mpt> yep, VPN auth failing is one of the same class of situation
[15:59] <dobey> but if i'm sitting in a browser, logging into some web site, some window popping up in front and stealing focus, is a problem
[15:59] <dobey> regardless of the reason for it
[16:04] <mpt> So people have been saying, for the past 30 years or so, with alternatives only nibbling around the edges
[16:06] <matv1> im 100% with dobey though, fwiw :)
[16:08] <NwS> Heya guys
[16:08] <NwS> Happy new year and all :P
[16:08] <mpt> It’s easy to be against things
[16:08] <NwS> Any updates on any new models yet?
[16:08] <matv1> haha i know but dobey has a fair solution i think
[16:09] <mpt> Really? Do tell me what it is :-)
[16:09] <dobey> i can't. my phone interrupted me and told me it's time to get lunch. so i must go do that.
[16:11] <matv1> i was assuming he was hinting at a notification center signal. at least not something that gets in the way.
[16:11] <nik90_> hey guys, I'm having trouble getting OTA-9. Despite several reboots and constant checks, I haven't got OTA-9 on my bq e4.5 device.
[16:12] <mardy> mpt: I would opt for opening the dialog always in the background, and have a small and touch-unsensitive visual indication that there's something needing your attention
[16:13] <mardy> mpt: a bit like the launcher sliding in and shaking the icon, but even less intrusive, if possible
[16:14] <matv1> maybe like the little red number when theres an update ?
[16:15] <mardy> mpt: maybe the notification indicator could become red or something, without actually showing a notification
[16:15] <mardy> mpt: but if you open it, you'd see the notification inside it; and tapping it would bring the dialog to the foreground
[16:15] <mpt> mardy, that’s the equivalent of going into Compiz Config Settings Manager and setting focus-stealing prevention to “High”. It’s fine if you’re the sort of person who notices every bounce and glow and indicator around the edge of your screen. Unfortunately most people don’t.
[16:16] <mpt> The smaller the screen is, the more likely you’ll notice a change, but on the other hand, the less space there is on screen to present the change.
[16:16] <mardy> mpt: right, I admit I was thinking of the phone only; on a bit screen we might want something more visible
[16:16] <mardy> s/bit/big
[16:17] <matv1> also, considering things like vpn notifications, users might not even care to do something about them at that moment
[16:18] <tathhu> nik90_, you could atleast flash it if you have acces to ubuntu pc and usb-cable :P
[16:27] <mpt> matv1, the badge on System Settings is for a situation that is (almost always) much less urgent. You might have even removed System Settings from the Launcher, so that the badge is visible only in the Dash.
[16:27] <mpt> (At least, once the Unity developers finally get around to implementing badges on apps in the Dash.)
[16:33] <matv1> mpt you are right. But i meant something as unobtrusive as that. I should however always show. Is it possible to turn the notification center icon red? Like along mardys lines
[16:36] <matv1> didnt mean to elbow my way into the conversation btw :) this stuff just feels important to me.
[16:37] <matv1> because if you start adding up all the possible scenarios that might trigger such a popup in the more distant future, we might get to see a lot of it
[16:37] <dobey> mpt: who is determining that urgency?
[16:41] <matv1> dobey right. as i said, sometimes users might not even care to take any action. depening on the scenario
[16:42] <matv1> anyway that me butting out now :)
[16:42] <dobey> matv1: well, my point is that the only one capable of determining urgency, is the user. treating everything as urgent will only make the user experience worse
[16:53] <mpt> dobey, in the case of software updates, it’s engineers in general and the security team in particular. If Ubuntu Touch users were under constant attack from ransomware and botnets and we were constantly issuing unphased updates to stymie them, updates would be more urgent than just a badge.
[16:55] <dobey> mpt: system updates do not require an account. what is the suggested solution for such critical security updates? are we going to pop up an overlay that requires people to update before they can continue using their phones?
[16:56] <dobey> and why is my not getting twitter notifications now because my token expired that important? or why isn't it that important? why does ubuntu get to make that determination, and not me?
[16:57] <mpt> I don’t see how requiring an account or not makes any difference…
[16:57] <dobey> well i thought we were talking about accounts popping up login dialogs, not system updates
[16:58] <dobey> they are two very different problems, and different problem domains
[16:58] <mpt> Whether something requires an account or not is orthogonal to how urgent it is.
[16:59] <mpt> For example, iOS treats system updates more urgently than we do: as well as the badge on the icon, you get a weekly (?) dialog reminding you that the update is available.
[16:59] <dobey> that does not sound especially urgent
[17:00] <mpt> No, it’s just one step up the scale from us
[17:00] <mpt> Going up the scale, you could make that dialog more frequent
[17:01] <dobey> so to protect against ransomware, we may need to make system updates behave as ransomware?
[17:01] <mpt> Even further, you would head into obnoxious Windows territory, where they say something like “Oh hi there. Unless you cancel, this computer will restart to install updates in 59 ... 58 ... 57 ...”
[17:01] <dobey> that is a level of annoyance, not urgency
[17:01] <mpt> Annoyance is the effect, not the rationale
[17:02] <dobey> it is the implementation
[17:02] <dobey> it is trying to install urgency upon a matter via annoyance
[17:03] <mpt> Instill? Perhaps.
[17:03] <dobey> yes
[17:04] <mpt> But no designer gets up in the morning saying “I want to annoy people today”
[17:04] <mpt> I bet there were screaming arguments at Microsoft about the automatic restarting
[17:04] <dobey> well, it's the effect, not the rationale :)
[17:05] <mpt> With designers saying “How dare we” and security engineers pointing at graphs of infection rates
[17:06] <dobey> well, screaming matches are certainly one way to get poor design into a product
[17:07] <dobey> but back to the topic of account logins. no login error is urgent, unless it occurs during the course of the user attempting to log in.
[17:09] <dobey> missing messages or appointments are separate problems
[17:09] <mpt> In 2009 I wrote up a simple matrix of urgent/not vs. interactive/not, and techniques for each combination. <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines>
[17:10] <mpt> The simplest reason that account authorization failure can be urgent is that it might result in you missing calendar appointments.
[17:11] <dobey> the only person capable of making a determination of urgency, is the person using the phone though; not the person writing the online-accounts plug-in or the calendar sync
[17:11] <mpt> E-mail, very urgent for some people, much less so for others (including most in this channel).
[17:11] <mpt> So, you’re saying it should be configurable?
[17:11] <dobey> no
[17:12] <mpt> How else would the user express that determination?
[17:12] <dobey> i'm saying we can't make a determination of urgency on the behalf of all users, for such things
[17:13] <mpt> Designers make determinations of things like that dozens of times a day.
[17:13] <dobey> i'm saying that "missed an appointment" is a separate problem, orthoganal to the auth error problem
[17:14] <mpt> It’s not a separate problem, if one is caused by the other.
[17:15] <dobey> it is still a separate problem, as it can be solved separately
[17:16] <dobey> popping a dialog to request logging in again isn't going to fix missed appointments
[17:16] <mpt> How can it be solved separately?
[17:17] <mpt> It is going to fix missed appointments, if you log in so that you resume getting calendar notifications.
[17:18] <dobey> why did you stop getting calendar notifications in the first place? it wasn't because of a login auth issue; we do sync, and the events from the previous sync should still be in the calendar
[17:19] <dobey> if the events got wiped becuase of the login issue, then that's a bug that needs fixed, because we shouldn't empty the events when an account exists, but there was a login error.
[17:19] <mpt> Because the event was created after the last sync.
[17:19] <mpt> (Or moved up. “Preponed”, as the Indians say.)
[17:20] <dobey> so if your phone had no network, you'd have the same issue
[17:21] <mpt> Yes, but it would usually be more obvious, because it wouldn’t be the only thing that had stopped working.
[17:21] <dobey> should we pop up a full screen window forcing the user to see they must connect to the network, because someone might miss an appointment somewhere, in that case?
[17:23] <mpt> It wouldn’t be full-screen, either in that case, or the re-auth case. But apart from that, maybe: that’s bug 1275761.
[17:24] <dobey> well "maximized" then
[17:24] <mpt> iOS uses a dialog in that case. <https://i.stack.imgur.com/gyPDr.png>
[17:25] <dobey> but the point remains. it seems to me like we're trying to use a canon to kill a mosquito
[17:25] <mpt> (Maybe unless the app specifically says “Don’t worry, I can present offline situations prominently myself”. I haven’t investigated yet.)
[17:25] <dobey> mpt: i expect that dialog is the result of the user expressly attempting to perform some action which requires a data connection?
[17:27] <dobey> as it appears to be on top of an app, and not the home screen
[17:27] <mpt> dobey, “expressly” is fungible. I get that dialog when I switch to Tweetbot and it tries to auto-refresh. I know that it tries to auto-refresh whenever I switch to it; does that mean it was an express instruction? Arguable.
[17:28] <dobey> mpt: you opened an application which requires internet access
[17:28] <dobey> mpt: maybe the message could be better for that app or something, but it is not the result of an actual background process doing things
[17:29] <dobey> ie, you don't get that dialog when calendar sync fails because you're in airplane mode
[17:29] <mpt> That’s true
[17:30] <mpt> But when I’m in airplane mode, it’s much more obvious, because (a) I can’t do anything on the Internet, in any app, and (b) there’s an airplane icon by itself in the corner and I know what it means
[17:31] <dobey> likewise, you probably don't get an auth dialog popping up when on network and calendar sync fails
[17:31] <mpt> I think I have, actually, but it’s only happened once and I didn’t take a screenshot.
[17:31] <dobey> mpt: but in ubuntu, the network indicator is not by itself in the corner, and airplane mode doesn't cover the case where there is no wifi, and you are roaming in an area where you don't have cellular data, but you can still do voice/sms
[17:33] <dobey> then there's the always fun transparent proxy open wifi that screws up dns, and causes all kinds of weird problems
[17:34] <mpt> Captive portals?
[17:34] <dobey> yes
[17:35] <mpt> Yeah, I get the feeling that bug 914507 is “Wishlist” because all the developers understand what’s going on and none of the user testing takes place behind a captive portal :-]
[17:36] <dobey> i don't think that's it at all
[17:36] <mpt> That would be, once implemented, another example of a window appearing out of nowhere, zomg
[17:36] <dobey> well, not really. it would be a window opening as a result of specific user action
[17:37] <mpt> Only in rare cases would it *not* be the result of the specific user action of trying to connect to the wi-fi network
[17:37] <dobey> but the problem is, there's no magic flag for "hey, you're connecting to a captive portal" and they don't all behave the same
[17:38] <mpt> Windows and OS X and even elementary OS manage it.
[17:38] <dobey> windows also uploads all your WPA passwords to a server and shares them with the world, too
[17:38] <mpt> That is entirely unrelated.
[17:39] <dobey> i don't see what any of this has to do with the original discussion :)
[17:39] <mpt> Coincidentally it happens to be another example of a problem that is least-badly solved by a window you weren’t necessarily expecting
[17:40] <dobey> it is a completely different situation and problem
[17:40] <mpt> Yes, it just happens to have the same kind of solution
[17:41] <dobey> not really
[17:41] <dobey> it's just the only "solution" you aren't being sarcastic and dismissive about :)
[17:47] <mpt> dobey, the only specific relevant solution I saw you suggest was a notification, and the reason I gave for a dialog was not sarcastic at all: you can put it behind what you’re doing if you want to, which you can’t with a notification.
[17:48] <mpt> (For example, to Google the problem or to message someone about it.)
[17:49] <dobey> mpt: my solution is to avoid such interruptions unless absolutely necessary. and there are literally no cases where it's absolutely necessary.
[17:52] <dobey> forcing the phone to wake up, and load a web page, is not a good solution; especially for people who may have to pay for data
[17:52] <mpt> dobey, you could say the same (and various extremist designers have said the same) about icons. Or checkboxes. Or menus. Or secondary dialogs. But each of them are the best solution to a class of problem.
[17:54] <dobey> nevermind.
[18:39] <tedg> mpt: network manager can know if it's behind a captive portal, we just don't enable that feature.
[18:44] <tedg> mterry: I pushed a new revision that works for me with launching libertine apps.
[18:45] <mterry> tedg, oh nice -- was it the version thing?
[18:45] <tedg> mterry: Mostly, we also weren't getting the pid list correct, but that was a bug in really old UAL code.
[18:46] <popey> tedg, one day....
[18:46] <tedg> mterry: The version was the weird one, the other was obvious once that was resolved.
[18:46] <popey> we've talked about that at every uds forever, and now we don't even have UDS
[18:46] <tedg> What? Libertine?
[18:46] <tedg> Or PIDs
[18:49] <tedg> Or that we had a summit instead of UDS and then I couldn't go.
[18:51] <popey> tedg, network manager captive portals
[18:51] <popey> one day we'll implement it
[18:52]  * popey notes our downstream elementary os already has
[18:52] <dobey> call your congressman and convince them to ban captive portals
[18:52]  * popey tries that
[18:52] <popey> then realises he lives in the UK so should probably call the queen or something
[18:53] <dobey> popey: call your lord i guess
[18:53] <tedg> The queen is a captive portal. Think about it.
[18:53] <popey> Mind
[18:53] <popey> Blown.
[18:53]  * popey wanders of
[18:53] <popey> *off
[18:53] <tedg> popey: I had it enabled for a while, it was interesting, but needs support at the indicator-network/nm-applet level to make work.
[18:55] <dobey> design is a captive portal.
[20:05] <matv1> I just made a first call after ota 9. after the call ended and i hung up, the call reconnected itself. really weird
[20:05] <matv1> anyone recognize that?
[20:06] <matv1> actually it happened twice.
[20:06] <matv1> only thing i could do was shut off the phone
[20:09] <matv1> would there still be any usefull logs to retrieve now?
[20:25] <matv1> there is nothing in relevant in /var/crash
[20:30] <matv1> but then that wasnt really a crash
[20:31] <matv1> hmm definitely got some funky stuff going on in the dialer app
[20:32] <matv1> I also noticed that the screen blacks out when i start a call
[20:33] <matv1> regardless it being to my face or not. the sensor isnt covered in any way
[23:50] <micael> Hi, i just update my bq to ota9 and i cant access my contacts form the sim card
[23:51] <micael> Is this a bug that a don't know or what?


[21:59]  * genii-around makes more coffee
[22:19]  * wylde_ wonders if it's timmies
[22:19] <genii-around> wylde_: Actually, yes
[22:20] <wylde_> \o/
[22:21]  * wylde_ prepares his I.V.
[22:22] <genii-around> http://imagebin.org/215569


[13:43] <studio-user366> Hi everyone, I just installed UStudio to my newly refurbished Thinkpad x230t=tablet... =>
[13:46] <studio-user366> Can anyone tell me if this software is good for doing digital artwork?
[13:46] <cfhowlett> "this" software? WHAT software?
[13:46] <studio-user366> cool  I can be heard  ....
[13:46] <studio-user366> thanks
[13:48] <studio-user366> I've been using linux since 1999 and think it is the best thing that is happening to computing
[14:16] <Elaine> Hi,  Anyone know the secret superuser password,  I cant use sudo nor log into su on this fresh install
[14:22] <cfhowlett> Elaine, if you already installed, the password is whatever you set it to.
[14:27] <Elaine> thk,   su seems to be barred but my sudo is working....  just no gedit here,   is there a superuser text edit program   "sudo vi..." not priviledged it seems
[17:22] <BionicMac> Hello. Is there anyway to keep cients from automatically making jack connections? I even set in qjackctl: Setup -> Options -> COnnections -> "Activate Patchbay persistence - ticked" "Reset all connections on patchbay activation - ticked"  "Warn on active patchbay disconnections - ticked" I've looked in all the clientspreferences that I can find and unticked anything that resembles
[17:22] <BionicMac> auto-connect-to-jack... I've settled it down somewht, but not to my liking. I am at a loss here.
[17:22] <OvenWerks> That is up to each individual jack client
[17:23] <OvenWerks> that means there is no overall setting that can stop all clients from doing auto connections
[17:24] <BionicMac> correct. And this could be a bad situation.
[17:25] <OvenWerks> There is jack-plumbing that will talk a preset graph of connections and make or break connects to match that graph.
[17:25] <BionicMac> Especially in a studio setting with aying clients. One wrong click and well: possible brain damage from the vloume, 2: time to reset. thank goodness that when I "activate a pacthbay in qjackctl I have it set to reset all coneections in activate.
[17:25] <BionicMac> s/aying/paying/
[17:25] <OvenWerks> each application that connects to jack _should_ allow setting no auto connect.
[17:29] <BionicMac> OvenWerks: You would definitely hope so. I have found this to not be the case with some key apps. well, no way in an obvious setting menu that is. I will do further testing. non-timeline is one of them.
[17:30] <BionicMac> I start non-timeline and all hell breaks loose on my perfect jack routing.
[17:30] <OvenWerks> non-stuff is built to use NSM to help make sure connections make sense.
[17:30] <BionicMac> I'm using nsm.
[17:32] <OvenWerks> I am not very familiar with nsm/nontimeline. I use Ardour for most of my stuff.
[17:34] <OvenWerks> Ardour does tend to auto connect as well, but will save whatever connections are set from session to session. Also it default new channel to not monitor inputs.
[17:36] <BionicMac> I think something is running in the background. hmmm I closed all visible gui's , started nsm... started qjackctl from within my session, started jack from the qjackctl menu and --- I get a notification from "Claudia" that a studio was started with no visible claudia GUI. This could be part of the problem.
[17:37] <OvenWerks> If you have installed claudia, it will start at session start to start jackd, pulse bridging etc.
[17:37] <BionicMac> The notification from Claduia was exactly when I clicked "start" from the qjackctl menu. I'll need to see if Claudia still runs in the background, apparently so. I had shut it down from it's own gui menu.
[17:40] <BionicMac> and there she is 3 or 4 bg processes with the gui closed by the claudia menu. This is part of the issue. I'll report back here in case you are wondering. Let me ask falkktx also.
[17:41] <BionicMac> But when I close Claudia ( stopping all studios first) from it's own menu I expect it to die.
[17:46] <OvenWerks> I think part of it runs as a daemon.
[17:53] <BionicMac> yeah, several. I had to kill 4 CLaudia procs -> "/usr/bin/python3 /usr/share/cadence/src/claudia.py"
[17:55] <BionicMac> then Cadence ->  /usr/bin/ssh-agent /usr/bin/im-launch /usr/bin/cadence-session-start --system-start-by-x11-startup /usr/bin/startkde ( I never set this to auto start either )
[17:55] <BionicMac> then and finally, ladishd
[17:56] <OvenWerks> ladish was the main reason I never installed kxstudio a second time after removing it ;)
[17:56] <BionicMac> now no more auto magic ghosts in the machine. I really like tht suite of apps too. I will check into settings and configs for more control of those.
[17:56] <OvenWerks> I think the new versions of kxtools don't need ladish though
[17:57] <BionicMac> I hope so. At least I want more control over ladish in any event.
[17:58]  * BionicMac sticks with qjackctl's very own patchbay presistence.
[18:01] <BionicMac> oh my, nsm session started flawlessly .. yes baby!
[18:01] <BionicMac> Too bad the only packages I found of the non-* suite was kxstudio.
[18:02] <BionicMac> I may have to buid my ppa of that suite.
[18:02] <OvenWerks> Ya, no one has taken the time to package for debian/ubuntu
[18:02] <BionicMac> some of the best audio tools out there too.
[18:02] <OvenWerks> I am not sure why
[18:03] <OvenWerks> just the mixer is quite good and fills a gap nothing else really does
[18:03] <BionicMac> exactly
[18:05] <OvenWerks> Last time I installed it was to build it.
[18:48] <BionicMac> Yes, I am buiding it now.
[20:01] <studio-user683> Hey
[20:54] <BionicMac> OvenWerks: Do you know if Patchage is capable of saving its own connections/sessions?
[21:49] <OvenWerks> BionicMac: I do not know for sure but it does not look like it to me.
[21:50] <OvenWerks> BionicMac: Also be aware that patchage has not seen any changes for some time so if some lib it depends on is removed it may vanish for the repos (for example GUI libs)
[21:52] <OvenWerks> maybe I am wrong about that, there are some things that look like they have been changed in the build script not too long ago.
[21:56] <OvenWerks> Quite honestly, I have not been able to even get it to leave things where I put them let alone keeping the same connections.
[22:21] <BionicMac> OvenWerks: Right. Yes, it really seems the linux audio world is in need of a graphical jack patch bay that actually works. Well, you know what I mean. Save patchbay, contorl of the actual patchbay. Settings that stay put, etc etc.
[22:22] <BionicMac> Patchage & Claudia seems to be the only two apps in that arena. I guess I will stick with Jacks patchaby seave sessions.
[22:23] <BionicMac> I will work in qjackctl's patchbay sessions.
[22:25] <BionicMac> err not claudia, catia I mean. and catia is heavely integrated with cadence suite. Maybe it can be used alone though but I don't think Catia has the ability to save session patches.
[22:27] <BionicMac> I take that back, I see a full list on JACK's homepage under "control". I shall test these out.
[22:29] <BionicMac> OvenWerks: Wow this looks right up my alley: -> https://sourceforge.net/projects/njconnect/
[22:29] <BionicMac> we shall see how well the save/restore sessions works.
[22:32] <BionicMac> njconnect has had commits as recent as last week.
[22:54] <BionicMac> OvenWerks: When all is said and done I like this cli control for jack tht I found in the Ubuntu Studio repo: aj-snapshot. works great


[07:42] <tjaalton> superm1: ping? is the latest fglrx known to be buggy with compiz & video?
[07:47] <tjaalton> superm1: apparently bug 179042
[07:47] <wgrant> tjaalton: Doesn't the EPR # mean it has been forwarded to AMD already?
[07:48] <tjaalton> wgrant: probably so
[07:49] <tjaalton> there should be a wikipage with the forwarded bugs
[07:49] <tjaalton> on it
[07:59] <tjaalton> sigh, looks like wacom upstream is just ignorant
[08:14] <wgrant> I noticed...
[08:14] <tjaalton> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20081009171824.GV5387%40cathedrallabs.org&forum_name=linuxwacom-devel
[08:14] <wgrant> I thought either I was completely misunderstanding it, or they were ignorant.
[08:14] <wgrant> And I suspected the latter.
[08:15] <wgrant> Oh.
[08:15] <wgrant> More traffic.
[08:16] <tjaalton> seems like Ping doesn't follow the -devel list
[08:16] <wgrant> How related to linuxwacom is Ping?
[08:16] <tjaalton> the main author
[08:17] <tjaalton> or developer
[08:17] <wgrant> Oh.
[09:33] <wgrant> Who is this Vincenzo character?
[10:05] <tjaalton> wgrant: where?
[10:05] <wgrant> -devel-discuss.
[10:05] <wgrant> See #-devel
[10:06] <tjaalton> ah, reading
[10:06] <wgrant> He's just insane.
[10:06] <tjaalton> ok, I won't bother then :)
[10:06] <wgrant> Heh.
[10:06] <tjaalton> loads of stuff to do
[10:07] <tjaalton> starting from getting nvidia 173 in hardy-proposed
[10:07] <tjaalton> with cuda
[10:07] <wgrant> Aha.
[10:07] <wgrant> Shiny.
[10:07] <tjaalton> well, the library at least
[10:25] <Ng> wgrant: a frustrated user, by the looks of it
[10:25] <Ng> it's a tad harsh to call him insane, I would say
[10:25] <Ng> it's not that he's especially wrong either (assuming you mean the thread about hardware support regressions), he's just not addressing the issue in a way that will have any positive outcome
[10:32] <tjaalton> maybe his vga-problems are related to the latest upload to hardy-proposed, where every chip inluding 855 and earlier have to be quirked
[11:08] <tjaalton> oh, it's only about vga-out
[11:12] <wgrant> Bug #295990. Fsck. FOrgot about that.
[11:13] <wgrant> I didn't bother with the keyboard stuff in g-s-d, because most of the settings are either really global or don't work with evdev...
[11:14] <wgrant> But of course layout needs setting per-device.
[11:22] <tseliot> tjaalton: nvidia-173 in hardy proposed???
[11:23] <tseliot> tjaalton: that will break things for a few users, please don't do it
[11:25] <tseliot> the reason why I didn't touch the lrm in hardy (instead of using the lrm-envy) is also that the current nvidia-glx-new works when 173, etc. doesn't with certain hardware configurations
[11:25] <tseliot> s/when/while/
[11:27] <tseliot> I think that backporting driver 173 and 178 to hardy through lrm-envy would be less risky
[11:30] <tjaalton> tseliot: it's not my idea
[11:30] <tjaalton> tseliot: what would break?
[11:30] <tjaalton> 173 didn't drop any hw support AIUI
[11:31] <tseliot> tjaalton: there are some cards (I don't remember which ones) for which the driver won't work
[11:31] <tseliot> and I'm not talking about cards being dropped by a driver
[11:31] <tseliot> the driver won't work at all
[11:32] <tseliot> tjaalton: who asked you to do this? (not to blame it on him but only to talk to him about this)
[11:32] <tjaalton> stefan bader
[11:32] <tseliot> username?
[11:32] <tjaalton> not on irc atm
[11:32] <tjaalton> dunno
[11:33] <tseliot> anyway rtg asked me to backport 178 to hardy and I will do it in the lrm-envy packages
[11:34] <tseliot> but we have to be careful not to break the packages in main
[11:35] <tseliot> tjaalton: BTW did you tell him about the linux-restricted-modules-envy?
[11:35] <tjaalton> tseliot: no, I bet he knows already
[11:36] <tseliot> ok, if you see him (metaphorically speaking), please ask him to talk to me
[11:36] <tjaalton> I'll reply to his email
[11:36] <tseliot> ok
[11:42] <tseliot> tjaalton: oh and I know that you maintain the lrm in hardy but in the future please notify me when you decide to modify them (as regards fglrx and nvidia) so that we can discuss the changes, etc.
[11:52] <tjaalton> tseliot: I don't really maintain it anymore, not since it was frozen :)
[11:53] <tseliot> hehe right ;)
[14:10] <pwnguin> Vicenzo is insane?
[14:19] <pwnguin> interesting
[14:40] <superm1> tjaalton, the fact that is has an EPR means AMD has an internal bug filed about it
[14:40] <superm1> we'll be closing out bugs per their announce/release notes based on those EPR's
[14:47] <tjaalton> superm1: yeah, a friend of mine suffers from it, that's why I was asking
[17:24] <bryce> heya
[17:25] <bryce> tjaalton: no need for wiki page, I got this set up for us to keep track:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/fglrx/+bugs
[17:27] <bryce> tjaalton: also, when you run across bugs that need upstreaming to AMD, we now have a way to mark them - click the "Affects project..." and then tick the third bullet "just mark as needs upstream for now"
[17:27] <bryce> (full process documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Upstreaming)
[17:39] <tjaalton> bryce: ok, thanks
[17:48] <bryce> how's thing tjaalton?
[17:50] <tjaalton> got my plane tickets today
[17:51] <bryce> :-)
[17:52] <tjaalton> trying to decide what souvenirs to buy ;)
[17:53] <bryce> have you been to san francisco before?
[17:56] <tjaalton> nope, there are too many places to see when I have only the sunday off
[17:57] <bryce> I used to live in san francisco, I can give tips if you need suggestions
[17:57] <tjaalton> sure thanks
[18:02] <bryce> I would suggest catching the BART from San Jose and get off downtown, then do one of the walking tours down through china town to fisherman's warf.  That should give maximum SF-ishness in the least amount of time.
[18:03] <superm1> bryce, i'm  gonna be in SF for a few days before UDS starts too.  i'll have to get some ideas from you  then too :)
[18:03] <bryce> sure
[18:03] <bryce> if you like musicals/plays/concerts, it is a great place to catch one of those
[18:03] <bryce> here's a link showing the neighborhoods:  http://www.sfcityguides.org/descriptions.html
[18:04] <superm1> would you recommend a car for those few days?
[18:04] <tjaalton> ok that should be a start :)
[18:04] <bryce> the top NE corner is where the biggest concentration of "things to see" is, and if you have limited time, is where I'd suggest focusing
[18:04] <bryce> superm1: well, downtown SF is *impossible* to get around in by car
[18:05] <superm1> okay then for sure no car
[18:05] <bryce> but the good news is it's totally walkable/public-transitable.  In fact the whole time I lived there I kept my car in storage
[18:05] <bryce> so you just need to sort out getting around in San Jose
[18:05] <bryce> San Jose is standard U.S. can't-get-around-without-a-car
[18:06] <superm1> right, about what i'm used to :)
[18:06] <bryce> although if the hotel is within walking distance of the lightrail, it might be ok
[18:06] <superm1> havent picked one out yet (but that reminds me i need to! :)
[18:07] <bryce> the weather in downtown SF is likely to be pretty cold and rainy, so plan accordingly
[18:07] <bryce> in San Jose it will be a bit better.
[18:08] <superm1> anything that's north of texas is cold to me now :)
[18:09] <superm1> but you'd recommend a hotel in San Jose over finding one in SF though provided i can find one close to a light rail?  assuming due to cost?
[18:10] <bryce> oh definitely
[18:10] <bryce> right, hotels in downtown SF are damn expensive
[18:11] <superm1> okay that's good to know
[18:11] <bryce> superm1: is the one that UDS is held in booked up yet?
[18:12] <superm1> bryce, not sure.  i'd imagine so?
[18:12] <superm1> but also given it's in mountain view - i'd expect pricey...
[18:12] <bryce> oh duh, UDS is at google
[18:13] <superm1> that'll be the other challenge to figure out; getting from SF to MTV cost effectively
[18:14] <bryce> well, when I went to the X conference at google earlier this year, I got a hotel in San Jose and a car, and drove in each day.  Traffic wasn't too bad (the conference started fairly late though).  Walking would have been impossible.
[18:14] <bryce> UDS is at a different google location than that, but might be the same situation.  not sure
[18:14] <bryce> a lot of the X guys shared cars
[18:14] <superm1> well i heard there is a free shuttle if you talk to the right people
[18:15] <bryce> cool, that could work
[18:15] <superm1> i just dont know who those people are, and if i dont find them, it will probably just end up being a taxi or one day car rental
[18:16] <bryce> anyway, even if you do rent a car, my recommendation for exploring SF would be the same - park it at a BART terminal and take BART in
[18:16] <superm1> okay, will definitely keep that in mind.  would probably leave the car rental for sunday then to use in exploring San Jose and for driving down
[18:17] <superm1> (if anything)
[18:27] <tjaalton> so are sunnyvale, mtv etc part of san jose?
[18:28] <superm1> tjaalton, http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=san+jose+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.224734,93.164063&ie=UTF8&ll=37.51844,-121.92215&spn=0.663338,1.455688&z=10
[18:28] <superm1> you can see the breakdown there a bit
[18:29] <bryce> superm1: yeah all three sort of run together in a big sprawl
[18:29] <tjaalton> yeah i've used gmaps quite a bit :)
[18:34] <tjaalton> my brother-in-law has been there many times
[18:36] <tjaalton> and asked me to bring some parts for his '65 grand prix ;)
[18:40] <bryce> hehe
[19:05] <bryce> tjaalton: hey, given that Intel is no longer supporting i815/i825 chips (maybe more pre-855?) on -intel, I'm wondering about if we could/should put -i810 back in the archive
[19:05] <superm1> bryce, hdmi audio on intel, any ideas what intel driver release it ends up falling into?  (i thought there was a video driver piece to it too)
[19:06] <bryce> superm1: hmm no idea; I've never needed to touch video stuff before and would assume the kernel would split that out, but I've not done very much with hdmi so far
[19:07] <superm1> bryce, well the video driver needs to let the audio driver know how much bandwidth it can have i believe. i thought there was an interaction there
[19:09] <superm1> bryce, ah http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjgzNg  there's some patches to both.  i'm assuming there will be more chatter on it in the coming months then
[19:36] <bryce> superm1: ah cool
[19:54] <tjaalton> bryce: but they don't support it either :)
[19:55] <tjaalton> hm, still no internet.. at least my phone works
[19:56] <tjaalton> s/internet/adsl/
[19:57] <bryce> tjaalton: sure but at least (assuming it works at all), it'd give users the option.
[20:20] <bryce> erf, already back up to 2000 bugs in ubuntu-x.
[20:43] <tjaalton> bryce: well, I don't know.. vincenzo's problem seems more like a hotkey-issue than a bug in -intel
[20:44] <tjaalton> besides, -i810does not support xserver 1.5
[20:44] <tjaalton> aiui it's not pcitoolized
[20:45] <bryce> ahh
[20:45] <bryce> good point.  So if community folks want -i810 back, they'll need to first get it up to date for 1.5.
[20:50] <tjaalton> or better, help intel testing the new releases for regressions
[20:51] <tjaalton> of -intel
[21:19] <bryce> no, I'm thinking of the cases where the testing has already done, I've upstreamed the issue to Intel, and they've said they won't be supporting it in -intel.
[21:19] <bryce> +been
[21:56] <tjaalton> meaning that they refuse to include fixes or that they wont be doing the work themselves?
[22:04] <bryce> the latter
[22:11] <tjaalton> right, so the community might be able to fix them. i don't know which is more work, porting the driver (with other bugs) or fixing the bugs
[22:25] <tjaalton> night
[22:35] <bryce> night tjaalton
[22:50] <tormod> hi there, I get some bad, spurious Xorg hangs on Intrepid. In order to investigate, I built xserver 1.5.3 to get the automatic backtracing. now it locks up at startup... I suspect the "RAW mode" commit. Any experiences among you?
[22:54] <tormod> or do I miss some crucial ubuntu patches? (I built it from fdo+debian git)
[23:15] <tormod> or do I need to recompile the DDX?
[23:21] <tormod_> for once, my ssh session stayed alive/recovered. Actually Xorg is not hung, but died and I don't get my console back. just the gray X screen and the cursor (from running startx).
[23:23] <tormod_> gdb is my friend: evdev_drv.so: undefined symbol: XIRegisterPropertyHandler
[23:23] <tormod_> gotta love these xserver point releases....
[23:26] <wgrant> tormod_: We carry property patches separately.
[23:27] <tormod_> wgrant, thanks! I will take a look
[23:31] <tormod_> I guess all those patches are in the ubuntu branch on git.debian.org and I just have to pull from there, d'oh.
[23:45] <tormod_> hmm why is patch 138 not in git, but listed in "series" ?


[08:53] <infinity> cjwatson: The vexpress kernel change recently had something to do with d-i targets, right?  I was only vaguely paying attention.  If you turn on the d-i vexpress build, that should take care of keeping it in main, I assume, so Martin will stop wondering if it needs demotion? :)
[08:54] <cjwatson> infinity: right, was planning on it
[08:54] <cjwatson> that was bug 826021
[08:54] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 826021 in linux-linaro-vexpress "Please re-enable crypto-modules udeb" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/826021
[08:56] <cjwatson> let me test-build it first; I'll get back to you next week :-P
[08:56] <infinity> Hah.
[08:57] <infinity> I think we have a developer-accessible Panda in the DC...
[08:58] <cjwatson> Meh, I'm already on kakadu
[08:59] <infinity> Kay.
[08:59] <infinity> scheat.canonical.com should be the porter box.
[08:59] <infinity> And if I didn't have StrictHostKeyChecking on, I'd be logged in by now...
[08:59] <cjwatson> (is it just me who always thinks "kaaaakaaaaaaadoo doo doo push pineapple shake a tree"?)
[09:00] <infinity> adconrad@scheat:~$ dchroot -l
[09:00] <infinity> Available chroots: lucid, maverick, natty, oneiric [default]
[09:00] <infinity> Look at that.
[09:00] <infinity> Shiny.
[09:00] <cjwatson> awesome.
[09:00] <infinity> You can -j2!  Tempting!
[09:00] <cjwatson> if I die of boredom waiting for kakadu then I'll try that.  still on the first cup of coffee though so I might just fall asleep again.
[09:14] <CIA-45> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1538 ubuntu/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Re-enable armel/linaro-vexpress and move it to 3.0.0-1007 kernels.
[09:16] <CIA-45> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1539 ubuntu/ (build/config/armel/linaro-omap.cfg debian/changelog): Move armel/linaro-omap to 3.0.0-1007 kernels.
[09:18] <CIA-45> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1540 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20101020ubuntu67
[09:53] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4989 trunk/scripts/install.py: Make the update process termination more consistent with the rest of ubiquity, and provide some logging to help further diagnose the bug.
[09:54] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4990 trunk/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog debian/control):
[09:54] <CIA-45> ubiquity: Automatic update of included source packages: console-setup
[09:54] <CIA-45> ubiquity: 1.57ubuntu26, grub-installer 1.68ubuntu2, hw-detect 1.81ubuntu3,
[09:54] <CIA-45> ubiquity: netcfg 1.68ubuntu5, partman-base 151ubuntu2.
[10:33] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4991 trunk/scripts/install.py: Kill the entire process group, and with it, apt-get.
[10:37] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4992 trunk/scripts/install.py: Remove duplicate errno import. Thanks pyflakes
[10:41] <cjwatson> I wish unity-2d worked properly in kvm
[10:41] <ogra_> it doesnt ?
[10:41] <cjwatson> it sometimes sort of works but randomly breaks a lot for me; I can't really use kvm for ubiquity development any more
[10:41] <ogra_> weird
[10:42]  * ogra_ hasnt seen much breakage since A1 in unity-2d
[10:43] <ogra_> cjwatson, might be the composite extension thats on by default, it doesnt do any harm on arm frambuffer but i could imagine it behaves different on vesa
[10:43] <ogra_> iirc you can disable it in d-conf somewhere
[10:44] <ogra_> (a metacity key)
[10:45] <ev> virtualbox has 3d driver support, for what it's worth
[10:45] <ev> the non-ose one, anyway
[10:45] <cjwatson> ogra_: that's always lots of fun to arrange on a live CD
[10:45] <ogra_> hmm, if thats the case you might end up with compiz under unity-2d
[10:45] <cjwatson> ev: yeah, but I had a virtualisation tool already that was working fine :)
[10:46] <ev> and unrelated to testing live CDs, but http://www.vagrantup.com makes working with virtualbox quite nice
[10:46] <ev> cjwatson: indeed, I realize it didn't directly address your question
[10:46] <cjwatson> and lots of finger macros
[10:46] <ev> ah yes
[10:46] <ev> I think we should just go back to the days when we were being given vmware licenses like they were candy
[10:47] <cjwatson> it was a great day when I switched from vmware to kvm
[10:47] <ev> haha, oh yes, I'm forgetting the constant module breakage and workarounds
[10:47] <cjwatson> yep, looking up whoever it was's site somewhere in .cz for the latest runes
[10:48] <cjwatson> TBH I don't know that 3d support would improve things noticeably here, given that unity is sufficiently much more sluggish than unity-2d on my laptop that I switched to unity-2d
[10:49] <cjwatson> although to be fair I hear that they reckon they've fixed a lot of the leaks
[10:49] <ogra_> no, but unity-2d (if you select the session in lightdm) forcefully uses metacity ... if the auto-fallback thing in the normal unity session kicks in it might use compiz with -2d
[10:50] <cjwatson> I want it to use metacity :)
[10:50] <ogra_> right
[10:50] <cjwatson> oh I see what you mean
[10:50] <cjwatson> possibly
[10:55] <cjwatson> at least my networking is slowly getting less appalling; twice the bandwidth I had last week
[10:55] <cjwatson> (twice of not a lot is still not a lot, but even so)
[11:13] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4993 trunk/ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py: Fix typo around setting the ATK name of widgets. Thanks unit tests.
[11:15] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4994 trunk/ (151 files in 3 dirs): Update translations from Launchpad.
[11:20] <CIA-45> ubiquity: evand * r4995 trunk/debian/changelog: releasing version 2.7.37
[12:01] <cjwatson> hmm.  my libsoup-based callback fetcher for the timezone page *seems* to be working, but some of the completions randomly don't seem to be filled in
[12:03] <cjwatson> maybe I'm calling set_model at the wrong time
[12:46] <cjwatson> ev: I'd appreciate your review of https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/ubiquity/libsoup-timezone/+merge/77324
[12:46] <cjwatson> I think I've tested it about as well as I can now
[12:47] <cjwatson> I used 'sudo iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 80 -j DROP' to simulate the appropriate kind of lossy network
[13:03] <ev> cjwatson: will do!
[13:09] <cjwatson> (done a full test install with that on the nobbled network, succeeded)
[13:17] <CIA-45> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1541 ubuntu/ (build/config/amd64/netboot.cfg debian/changelog): Bump amd64 netboot image size by another 256KiB.
[13:18] <CIA-45> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1542 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20101020ubuntu68
[13:35] <CIA-45> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r386 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
[13:35] <CIA-45> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: Update screenshots to reflect the latest desktop changes
[13:35] <CIA-45> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: (LP: #861410).
[13:45] <stgraber> cjwatson: two questions for you
[13:45] <stgraber> got RAOF to do some tests last night for bug 854967
[13:45] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 854967 in friendly-recovery "boot to rescue mode in Oneiric" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854967
[13:46] <stgraber> apparently nouveau isn't affected by the problem but nvidia is, testers confirm setting gfxpayload=text works for them
[13:46] <stgraber> is that something you'd be fine with me changing in grub (only for the recovery entry)?
[13:46] <cjwatson> not in grub; that's what the gfxpayload blacklist is for surely
[13:47] <cjwatson> whatever the nvidia package is should probably blacklist nvidia cards
[13:47] <cjwatson> that way it won't be in place if the nvidia package isn't installed
[13:48] <stgraber> oh, that'd make sense indeed, I'm not really familiar with how that blacklist works. Will comment in the bug, re-assign to the nvidia package and then have a look at that blacklist
[13:48] <stgraber> cjwatson: second one is bug 848072
[13:48] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 848072 in netcfg "[oneiric] net-installer dhcp client fails with a DHCPDECLINE" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/848072
[13:48] <cjwatson> right, still in my review queue, your patch looked reasonable at first glance though
[13:49] <stgraber> perfect
[13:49] <stgraber> getting back to playing with nvidia hardware then, thanks!
[13:49] <cjwatson> might want to check with slangasek whether he minds nvidia being gfxpayload-blacklisted across the board; it would likely affect his flicker-free boot work
[13:51]  * cjwatson laboriously works on duplicating bug 851704
[13:51] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 851704 in grub2 "GRUB reports error after successful installation (Alternate)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/851704
[13:53] <stgraber> ok, I'll poke slangasek about it, though testing on my nvidia system here currently gives me "BIOS => blank => cursor => plymouth => blank => lightdm" so not exactly flicker free :)
[13:56] <cjwatson> yeah, that's probably a good sign for blacklisting
[13:57] <cjwatson> right.  excessively complex partitioning layout created, installing base system.  time for coffee
[14:07] <ev> cjwatson: I've replied to the merge proposal with a question
[14:08] <ev> ooo, coffee is a good idea
[14:08] <ev> shame we're down to the grade 4 stuff (out of 10)
[14:09] <jibel> ev, I tried r4995 and 'download while installing' still fails.
[14:09] <ev> ARGH
[14:09] <ev> how on earth..
[14:09] <jibel> ev, killpg should be called with the pgid not the pid but then it will also kill ubiquity which is a member of the same process group than update-apt-cache sudo being the parent process.
[14:12] <cjwatson> killing the pg sounds wrong.  shouldn't the descendant processes die due to SIGPIPE or similar?
[14:13] <cjwatson> you aren't using the usual SIGPIPE fix when spawning update-apt-cache; I wonder if that matters
[14:15] <cjwatson> ev: I'll give http://paste.ubuntu.com/698518/ a try in a bit and see how that behaves; my previous attempts didn't seem to go well but I might have made a mistake
[14:16] <superm1> cjwatson, i think there are two parts to that firewall bug.  the geoname piece that you have that soup merge request, but there is also clock-setup's postinst which is calling rdate
[14:16] <cjwatson> superm1: clock-setup has its own timeout handling though
[14:16] <cjwatson> I'm a lot less concerned about that because AFAICS it doesn't break installation
[14:17] <cjwatson> if there are two parts, it should be two bugs
[14:19] <superm1> oh clock-setup calls into tzsetup which is using wget with a 15 second timeout
[14:19] <jibel> superm1, clock-setup doesn't freezes the installer.
[14:20] <cjwatson> slowdown => not great; total freeze => baaaaaad
[14:20] <superm1> yeah
[14:55] <charlie-tca> ev, cjwatson : Can one of you push the fix to bug 781385 out today?
[14:55] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 781385 in ubiquity "Ubiquity GTK should have useful accessible names set in the Glade .ui files instead of using the variable names" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/781385
[14:56] <ev> charlie-tca: it's been uploaded, but there was a build failure
[14:57] <ev> in the process of sorting that out
[14:57] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[14:57] <ev> sure thing
[14:58] <CIA-45> console-setup: cjwatson * r423 ubuntu/debian/ (changelog po/el.po po/fa.po po/he.po po/pa.po po/zh_TW.po):
[14:58] <CIA-45> console-setup: Update Greek, Persian, Hebrew, Punjabi, and Traditional Chinese
[14:58] <CIA-45> console-setup: translations from console-setup 1.68, fixing encoding problems
[14:58] <CIA-45> console-setup: (LP: #860562).
[15:01] <CIA-45> console-setup: cjwatson * r424 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.57ubuntu27
[15:18] <CIA-45> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r387 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (381 files in 7 dirs): Update translations from Launchpad.
[15:21] <CIA-45> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: evand * r388 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 48
[15:46] <cjwatson> ev: so we call jockey-text both in and out of the chroot?  *scratches head*
[15:47] <ev> cjwatson: yes, because jockey-text -C (for the composite driver), run in the live system apparently ends badly
[15:47] <cjwatson> wait, simple-plugins shouldn't matter because that calls jockey-text without -C
[15:47] <ev> so both calls are intended to do different things
[15:47] <ev> the first call is for the broadcom driver
[15:47] <ev> the second call is for the nvidia driver
[15:47] <cjwatson> so I'm still confused
[15:48] <cjwatson> unless jockey is doing the wrong thing with locales
[15:48] <ev> but it's happening in the first call, no?
[15:49] <cjwatson> I don't think so - the log seems to show it being quite late in installation
[15:50] <cjwatson> it's after a bunch of packages being installed in the target, so it can't be prepare
[15:50] <ev> ah, I misread
[15:50] <cjwatson> I suppose we could try setting LC_MESSAGES too but WTF
[15:52] <cjwatson> very confused
[15:56] <ev> hm
[15:58] <cjwatson> and I can't see gettext.gettext (i.e. _) being broken with respect to LC_ALL handling
[19:13] <dmarkey> cjwatson: when is ubuntu-installer change freeze for Ocelot?
[19:17] <bdmurray> I neglected to mention bug 645449 this morning in our meeting
[19:17] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 645449 in ubiquity "Ubiquity hangs at Keyboard layout if you use keyboard to navigate / select" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/645449
[20:04] <cjwatson> dmarkey: there isn't a particular installer freeze, we go with the freezes for the rest of the distribution; see the release schedule
[20:09] <dmarkey> cjwatson: so.. that would be tomorrow? :)
[20:11] <cjwatson> yes, although in practice we normally seek freeze exceptions for a number of late fixes
[20:12] <dmarkey> are you aware of anyone testing installing on Xen?
[20:37] <cjwatson> dmarkey: I did a set of tests at the end of last week and the start of this one, and fixed several bugs affecting Xen in all of lucid, maverick, natty, and oneiric
[20:37] <cjwatson> dmarkey: as far as I know it should now work fine in Xen
[20:37] <cjwatson> this was largely due to a friend of mine who runs a hosting company (www.jump.net.uk) who cornered me in the pub about it
[20:38] <cjwatson> of course I don't know what sort of variety there is in boot loader setups on Xen, so independent tests wouldn't hurt
[20:38] <bdmurray> bug 861609 is interesting since bug 442941 was fixed ...
[20:38] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 861609 in ubiquity "Installer failed - debconf passthrough issue" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/861609
[20:39] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 442941 in ubiquity "debconf failed to upgrade from 1.5.27ubuntu1 to 1.5.27ubuntu2: exit status 128 - Use of uninitialized value $reply in scalar chomp at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/FrontEnd/Passthrough.pm line 66" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/442941
[20:39] <dmarkey> cjwatson: do you know if they were using pygrub or not?
[20:39] <cjwatson> but it now (a) autoloads xen-{blk,net}front properly (b) actually honours grub-installer/grub2_instead_of_grub_legacy=false (c) knows how to install grub on /dev/xvd*
[20:39] <cjwatson> dmarkey: no, pv-grub
[20:39] <cjwatson> so maybe only (a) will be relevant to your setup
[20:39] <dmarkey> i see.. i'll test tomorrow
[20:39] <cjwatson> bdmurray: sort of thing where looking at the topmost symptoms may not be very helpful
[20:40] <dmarkey> if the grub.cfg hasnt changed, we should be file
[20:40] <bdmurray> cjwatson: where should I be looking?
[20:41] <cjwatson> the passthrough bits sound like a red herring
[20:41] <cjwatson> apt-setup failing with exit code 141: that's signal number (141-128) == 13
[20:41] <cjwatson> 'kill -l' tells you that's SIGPIPE
[20:42] <cjwatson> which happens when a process tries to write to a pipe and all the processes reading from it have gone away
[20:42] <cjwatson> (mind you there is an *awful lot* of that passthrough noise isn't there)
[20:43] <cjwatson> what's all that "Reverting lockdown the desktop environment." stuff?
[20:43] <bdmurray> is this an upgrade using ubiquity?
[20:43] <cjwatson> hm, irrelevant I think
[20:43] <cjwatson> Sep 28 17:14:30 ubuntu kernel: [ 1384.574306] apt-cdrom[29439]: segfault at 4 ip 00a5de9e sp bfbb6b84 error 6 in libc-2.13.so[9c7000+176000]
[20:44] <cjwatson> doesn't look brilliant
[20:44] <CIA-45> ubiquity: cjwatson * r4996 trunk/ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py: grammar
[20:44] <cjwatson> Sep 28 22:43:14 ubuntu ubiquity: /usr/lib/ubiquity/migration-assistant/ma-ask: 40: : Permission denied
[20:44] <cjwatson> gnome-control-center segfault earlier
[20:44] <cjwatson> I'm really not sure I can tell what's going on here
[20:46] <bdmurray> what's this? Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/ubnkern file=/cdrom/preseed/ubuntu.seed boot=casper quiet splash --
[20:47] <cjwatson> somebody's homerolled boot-from-hard-disk system?  not sure
[20:47] <cjwatson> don't know if it matters
[20:47] <cjwatson> the passthrough noise is basically a verbose way of saying "the thing I want to read replies from gave end-of-file instead"
[20:48] <bdmurray> okay that helps clarify things for me
[20:49] <cjwatson> where in this case that's probably coming from debconf-apt-progress wrapping apt-get update so that we get a progress bar around downloads
[20:49] <cjwatson> and the thing it's trying to read replies from is probably ubiquity
[20:50] <cjwatson> so it's very unclear what actually happened; the next step is to ask, if possible, for that to be reproduced with 'ubiquity -d'
[20:50] <cjwatson> maybe something has screwed up the debconf protocol pipe
[20:51] <cjwatson> all this kind of thing is basically bad response to an assertion failure - we could probably make it more graceful, but it wouldn't make the actual error go away :-(
[21:37] <CIA-45> ubiquity: superm1 * r4997 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py):
[21:37] <CIA-45> ubiquity: Preseed a bootloader target if one hasn't been set but running in
[21:37] <CIA-45> ubiquity: automatic mode. (LP: #861465)
[22:08] <infinity> ev: What was the rationale for splitting out oem-config-slideshow?
[22:09] <infinity> ev: Other than one different stanza (which could, arguably, be a bug), it looks identical to ubiquity-slideshow.
[22:26] <infinity> cjwatson: Or you?  Any idea on the above?
[22:27] <infinity> cjwatson: Not only does the split seem to not make a bunch of sense, but it also means that we don't get oem-config-slideshows for anything other than Ubuntu.  (Yes, fixable, but I'm failing to see the point in the first place)
[22:34] <cjwatson> I'm not sure, it'd be an IRC-log-trawling exercise ...
[22:34] <cjwatson> I thought at one point they were intended to be qualitatively different slideshows
[22:34] <infinity> Possibly.
[22:34] <infinity> How would you feel about this, for graceful fallback?
[22:34] <infinity> [22:34] <infinity> --- ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py	2011-09-28 20:43:51 +0000
[22:34] <infinity> +++ ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py	2011-09-28 22:33:27 +0000
[22:34] <infinity> @@ -782,7 +782,7 @@
[22:34] <infinity>              self.shutdown_button.hide()
[22:34] <infinity>
[22:34] <infinity>          # Parse the slideshow size early to prevent the window from growing
[22:34] <infinity> -        if self.oem_user_config:
[22:34] <infinity> +        if self.oem_user_config and os.path.exists('/usr/share/oem-config-slideshow'):
[22:34] <infinity>              self.slideshow = '/usr/share/oem-config-slideshow'
[22:34] <infinity>          else:
[22:35] <infinity>              self.slideshow = '/usr/share/ubiquity-slideshow'
[22:35] <infinity> Thus allowing people to still use oem-config-slideshow-* if/when they want to, but falling back to ubiquity-slideshow-* when not present?
[22:35] <infinity> Since the latter exists on all flavours.
[22:38] <infinity> cjwatson: Pasted, for marginally less ugliness: http://paste.ubuntu.com/698778/
[22:38] <superm1> by default the ubiquity slideshow is uninstalled after a run though before you get to oem config I thought
[22:39] <infinity> superm1: Not in every abusive case of oem-config.  But fair point, that could explain the intent behind the split (though it seems poorly executed)
[22:40] <infinity> Given that the kde frontend doesn't know about oem-config-slideshow, and no flavours other than ubuntu have a package for it.
[22:43] <infinity> I'm tempted to make the above change just to fix things on preinstalled images anyway.  I see no way it can cause regressions, just catches a weird use-case.
[22:45] <cjwatson> infinity: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/11/%23ubuntu-installer.html#t14:35 seems to be the origin
[22:46] <cjwatson> I have no problem with that graceful fallback; I don't see how it can make anything any worse
[22:47] <infinity> That IRC conversation is pretty light on details.  Except, I guess it might have removed a dirty hack where you had to exclude ubiquity-slideshow-* from the live-manifest removal filter?
[22:47] <infinity> The hack seems better than packages with duplicate contents that seem to be slightly out of sync ;)
[22:48] <cjwatson> yeah, afraid I don't really remember
[22:50] <infinity> Well, not my pet project.    I seem to not be in that team anymore. ;)
[22:56] <infinity> cjwatson: I guess you could just remove Fabio from ~ubuntu-installer and add me.  I'm sure I'd be 87% more useful.
[23:25] <infinity> cjwatson: Can you merge http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~adconrad/+junk/ubiquity/revision/4998 for me?


[00:11] <Unit193> drc: Internet issues?
[01:01] <DarkEra> drc needs to enter his password in Xchat not only in nickserv but also in server to solve the changing host and cloak problem. ;-)
[01:02] <Unit193> I have SASL so even timeouts don't take it off...
[01:04] <DarkEra> and if you do  /set irc_join_delay 10  ?
[01:08] <DarkEra> seems i read that wrong.... my bad
[01:59] <cody-somerville> I think there might be a serious memory leak issue with natty.
[02:25] <cody-somerville> and indeed I can confirm
[02:25] <cody-somerville> gltext has a massive memory leak
[02:26] <DarkEra> does this affect every *buntu Natty release?
[02:27]  * DarkEra is still trying to learn after 3 years of using Linux
[02:28] <cody-somerville> Out of the box, only Xubuntu + Mythbuntu. We're the only ones who use xscreensaver.
[02:29] <cody-somerville> s/use/ship by default/
[02:31] <cody-somerville> Does reboot work for anyone else? It doesn't work for me.
[02:33] <DarkEra> so this memory leak could have caused the freeze of my netbook then yesterday evening while the screensaver was on for a while
[02:33] <Unit193> cody-somerville: I'm currently stuck in TTY right now...
[02:34] <cody-somerville> DarkEra, Yes!
[02:34] <cody-somerville> DarkEra, Its caused *huge* performance issues for me as it causes all my other applications to swap to disk
[02:34] <cody-somerville> and then they're super slow
[02:34] <cody-somerville> and I was like... ugh, natty sucks
[02:35] <DarkEra> i needed to shut it down... the hard way :(
[02:35] <cody-somerville> DarkEra, Try disabling the gltext screensaver and see if you run into the problem again.
[02:35] <cody-somerville> LP #768032 is the bug, btw.
[02:36] <DarkEra> cody-somerville, i set the screensaver on Blank Screen only and had no problems after that
[13:57] <Pjotr> I would like to make a suggestion for Xubuntu 11.10
[13:58] <Pjotr> The default desktop would look much nicer and tidier, if all hard disk partitions wouldn't be mounted automatically
[13:58] <charlie-tca> agreed
[13:59] <charlie-tca> but to not mount them would also mean not auto-mounting cdrom or usb drives
[13:59] <Pjotr> easy to change of course, but first impressions are important.
[13:59] <Pjotr> @charlie-tca: can't thoise categories be separated?
[13:59] <charlie-tca> But not easy to make happen
[14:00] <charlie-tca> They are not separate in Xfce, which makes it very difficult
[14:00] <Pjotr> an issue for upstream then?
[14:00] <charlie-tca> yes, which they are working on
[14:01] <Pjotr> in Xfce 4.10? Or will it be backported to 4.8 as well?
[14:01] <charlie-tca> don't know yet if it will be available in 4.10
[14:02] <Pjotr> OK.... Thanks for the info
[14:04] <Pjotr> One other issue: the default wallpaper in Xubuntu is very dark. It would look much more atractive if a lighter wallpaper would be used. Again: in order to improve first impression....
[14:04] <charlie-tca> Everybody seems to have a different opinion when it comes to light vs dark wallpaper. We had many people hate the lighter background.
[14:05] <charlie-tca> However, it is very easy to change wallpapers.
[14:05] <Pjotr> yes, but first impressions matter...
[14:05] <charlie-tca> and many people think the darker wallpaper is a huge improvement over the light
[14:05] <charlie-tca> again, different opinions
[14:06] <charlie-tca> We can't please everyone
[14:06] <Pjotr> tastes differ. :P
[14:06] <charlie-tca> exactly
[14:06] <charlie-tca> which is why we include the light background, all you have to do is change it
[14:06] <charlie-tca> but most people don't see it much, since they open their applications and go to work
[14:07] <Pjotr> that's true ofcourse.
[14:07] <Pjotr> well, Xubuntu 11.04 has become very elegant, I think
[14:08] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[14:08] <Pjotr> a good contender for Unity
[14:08] <Pjotr> the dock is particularly nice, I think. Both beautiful and functional
[14:09] <charlie-tca> A lot of time and effort went into making the theme and panels work well
[14:10] <Pjotr> it's steady as a rock as well. Thanks for a great product!  :-)
[14:10] <charlie-tca> Thanks for letting us know.
[14:10] <Pjotr> have to go now. bye.
[14:40] <drc> 57 updates? On a Daily Build?
[14:44] <charlie-tca> huh?
[14:44] <charlie-tca> seems low
[14:44] <charlie-tca> alternate images don't exist
[14:44] <charlie-tca> We should start seeing between 100 and 200 a day soon
[14:45] <drc> I know  I was doing Live-64-Entire...just for practice.
[14:45] <charlie-tca> We will have a ton of updates daily real soon
[14:45] <drc> This was not an update, this was a fresh install of the daily build. Ther are that many updates between the time they build the image and now?
[14:46] <charlie-tca> and, yes, they will build the images, an hour later there will be a lot of updates for that image
[14:46]  * drc starts looking for his LMDE cd....er...dvd ;)
[14:46] <charlie-tca> The image is just a snapshot of what is there at the moment of the build
[14:47] <charlie-tca> Since updates are put through 24 hours a day, they never stop
[14:51] <charlie-tca> I don't think we will get a fix on the alternate image this weekend, since the weekend after the milestone is usually pretty dead
[14:51] <charlie-tca> I think it is a server issue, though
[14:52] <drc> Well, then that server will get no tip from me, such lousy service.
[14:52] <charlie-tca> heh
[14:54] <drc> Well well well..."Not all updates can be installed"
[14:54] <charlie-tca> normal
[14:55] <charlie-tca> it means that they are still updating packages
[14:55] <drc> just do the partial?
[14:55] <drc> or wait
[14:55] <charlie-tca> or they broke the update-manager
[14:55] <charlie-tca> partial will break things
[14:55] <drc> wait it is
[14:55] <charlie-tca> most of the time
[14:58] <drc> OK...how to get VB to recognize a USB Stick...I've done Settings>USB, Enable USB controller is checked, The USB stick is there and checked, When I run the VM the USB is there in Devices> USBDevices, but greyed out and it won't mount?
[14:59] <drc> me thinks this will be another facepalm moment for him...and so early in the day too....
[14:59] <charlie-tca> click the usb thing at the bottom of the vbox window
[14:59] <charlie-tca> after you launched
[15:00] <charlie-tca> I don't know how to install from it, though
[15:00] <charlie-tca> clicking it or right clicking it lets you mount it
[15:01] <drc> NO USB Devices Attached...click does nothing...the greyed out USB stck is listed there also.
[15:02] <drc> OH well...can't do any tests...calls for a USB test and I can;t do one...Oh Woe Is Me....
[15:03] <charlie-tca> okay, are you in the VBox users group on the main system?
[15:03] <charlie-tca> Users must be added to the vboxusers group to allow USB drives to be used in VirtualBox
[15:03] <charlie-tca> go to menu -> System -> Users and Groups
[15:04] <charlie-tca> Add drc to the group vboxusers
[15:04] <charlie-tca> Then you have to restart or logout to activate that change
[15:04] <charlie-tca> Then you can use USB in VBox
[15:06] <charlie-tca> This is harder to find in the documentation for VBox
[15:06] <drc> orly?
[15:07] <charlie-tca> yup, knome found it
[15:08] <drc> On the Host, not the VM, right?
[15:08] <charlie-tca> right
[15:08] <drc> logout
[15:11] <drc> Works
[15:11] <charlie-tca> Good
[15:11] <charlie-tca> now to get some testing done...
[15:11] <drc> I *knew* if I mentioned not being able to test, you'd find a solution :)
[15:12] <drc> 64-Live-Entire short test done
[15:13] <charlie-tca> Wow! that was fast, too
[15:13] <drc> That's what my wife says too....
[15:13] <charlie-tca> if you use sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade, there are 59 upgrades, 1 new, 3 removed
[15:14] <drc> The only odd thing was  Firefox: about:startpage - Not Found - The requested URL /11.10/Google was not found on this server.
[15:14] <charlie-tca> nothing held back
[15:14] <charlie-tca> You need to run updates, that was fixed
[15:14] <drc> darn it
[15:15] <drc> I was gonna take a nap...tiring work, testing
[15:15] <charlie-tca> I know ;-)
[15:15] <charlie-tca> I might have to take tomorrow off, too.
[15:20] <drc> Well...I suppose...maybe we could let you.
[15:22] <drc> Assuming the update goes well, an email to the -devel ML stating the test done and the results would be in order?
[15:22] <charlie-tca> yeah, that would be good
[15:23] <drc> Do I need to report the firefox thingie ?
[15:23] <charlie-tca> or what failed
[15:23] <charlie-tca> no, it is already reported as a bug
[15:23] <charlie-tca> I can kick monday about it not being in the image yet
[15:24] <drc> OK, then...All Systems Go. 64-Live-Short passed.
[15:25] <charlie-tca> Great!
[15:30] <charlie-tca> When I go away today, I won't be back until Oneiric is installed
[15:34] <charlie-tca> running resize test
[15:39] <charlie-tca> Install for 64bit desktop cd does not work from the desktop
[15:39] <charlie-tca> It can only be run from the cd menu itself. It does a logout after partitioning during the live desktop install
[15:40] <charlie-tca> (and, you can not log back in, since the only known user in GDM is "other"
[15:41] <charlie-tca> VirtualBox installation, not tried hardware
[15:46] <drc> huh, did not try from Desktop, did the LiveCD test and then away to do something and came back rebooted and installed from the menu.
[15:47] <drc> charlie-tca:  When I send the mail to the ML, I'll note that menu install...you going to note the Desktop problem?
[15:49] <charlie-tca> no, I am the one the reports go to
[15:49] <drc> Well, report yourself ;)
[15:49] <charlie-tca> report myself to myself?
[15:50] <drc> and make sure you don't play favorites
[15:50] <charlie-tca> I will try not to
[18:26] <Unit193> I still have the 32LiveCD?
[18:27] <drc> Unit193: Yup
[18:28] <Unit193> Sweet. Heh, it's 800M
[18:28] <drc> The 64Live coud not install from the Desktop icon (according the charlie-tca, I didn't try ot), so you may have to do the LiveCD test and then re-boot to install from the initial men.
[18:29] <drc> menu,,sheesh...fngers are tired today
[20:09] <charlie-tca> Unit193: usb drive or VBox, either one should work
[20:12] <charlie-tca> hm, looking at the build logs, I think 32bit should from the live desktop, but 64bit will have issues.
[20:31] <charlie-tca> Well, I have to go install Oneiric now. Back later, when it is working ;-)
[20:32] <drc> in October?
[20:44]  * astraljava hi^5s drc
[20:44] <astraljava> err... that's rather redundant
[20:44] <astraljava> ^5s
[23:04] <Unit193> drc AND charlie-tca are gone...
[23:48] <Unit193> drc: Great! You're back!


[13:13] <hggdh> !support
[15:09] <coconut> ^ one needs to be edited to (groovy gorilla)
[18:22] <hggdh> !support
[18:42] <valorie> !support