[01:56] <Unit193> So what was the point in messing around with the PPAs?
[07:15] <ochosi> bluesabre: we should also move the content from the pad to a blueprint was my other point, "finalize" :) so we dont lose the link anymore
[08:58] <akxwi-dave> flocculant: checking that out.. will advise..
[09:18] <akxwi-dave> hhmmm definatley takes longer to get to the  "Try Xubuntu" option on the live desktop..thats on VBox..
[10:13] <slickymasterWork> flocculant, tried today's daily
[10:14] <slickymasterWork> all went as expected and installed without any issues
[10:14] <slickymasterWork> didn't see the issues you have loading it
[10:14] <slickymasterWork> but that was on VMware, not kvm
[10:14] <slickymasterWork> akxwi-dave ^^^
[10:17] <akxwi-dave> yep same here installs fine  and not spotted any problems.. just took longer than normal to get to the try or install options..
[10:18] <slickymasterWork> yep, get that also
[10:19] <slickymasterWork> already report it in the tracker
[10:38] <akxwi-dave> :-)
[14:05] <flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - re the double indicator thing we've been seeing, never seeing the network now, but maybe that's because that's up before the autostarting transmission I've got while seeding us?
[18:42] <jbicha> hi, desktop-common was updated today to drop some extra CJK fonts, so please regenerate xubuntu-meta and upload to bionic
[18:42] <jbicha> discussion was at LP: #1581160
[18:53] <Unit193> Last cycle changes: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.bionic/revision/2123 - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.bionic/revision/2125 and so far: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.bionic/revision/2129
[18:59] <Unit193> (Regarding xubuntu-b-development/[xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-meta: Review and trim excess fonts: TODO)
[22:17] <Unit193> bluesabre: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2017-November/001201.html thank you!  I've got the update prepped, but it's minimal.
[23:44] <flocculant> bluesabre: you around?


[02:09] <JILX2> hello
[02:09] <JILX2> need some help with jnlp
[02:09] <JILX2> anyone ??
[02:27] <miramardesign> hey room
[02:27] <miramardesign> im trying to recompile to .jar an old .jar
[21:27] <chogori> Hi! Is it safe to install java 1.6.0_12 packages (jre, jdk, etc.) from debian 5 (lenny) on ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10?


[01:48] <snadge> i've found a bug that specifically effects gnome-flashback but im trying to figure out what the actual bug is
[01:51] <snadge> in a nutshell.. the pptp vpn applet in network manager, wont connect and gives this error "NetworkManager[5971]: <error> [1428024767.629835] [vpn-manager/nm-vpn-connection.c:1778] get_secrets_cb(): Failed to request VPN secrets #2: (6) No agents were available for this request."
[01:51] <snadge> if i use unity, it works.. the only remotely relevant thing i can find by searching for this error is
[01:53] <snadge> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/03/msg00766.html
[01:53] <snadge> i guess i could look at the source code :/
[02:09] <snadge> where is /var/log/debug ?
[09:15] <lordievader> Good morning.
[09:17] <snadge> morning :)
[09:18] <snadge> i have found the specific version of gnome flashback which has introduced a regression
[09:18] <snadge> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-flashback/3.14.0-3ubuntu8
[09:19] <snadge> ubuntu7 works fine.. and ubuntu8 onwards doesnt.. basically pptp vpns have stopped working
[09:19] <snadge> that was a painful process to go through.. do i just submit a bug report against gnome-flashback ?
[11:11] <lord_cotton> I have screen tearing in Kubuntu 15.04
[11:11] <lord_cotton> I think this is since ht elast update
[11:12] <soee> lord_cotton: with propriety drivers ?
[11:12] <lord_cotton> yeah
[11:12] <soee> lord_cotton: be sure to set full screen repaint for compositor settings in System Settings
[11:12] <lord_cotton> alright thanks
[11:14] <soee> lord_cotton: also you might want to check https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA#Avoid_screen_tearing_in_KDE_.28KWin.29
[11:15] <lord_cotton> noted, thanks
[11:24] <solsTiCe> hi. I don't know if it's weird. I run manually fstrim -a. and then a second time fstrim -a -v. but the seocnd time it shows 0 bytes trimmed. Is it that it does not trim anything at all or that the second time it knows it has nothing to trim ?
[11:27]  * penguin42 has never used fstrim but that doesn't surprise me - if you've already squashed it out what else is there to do
[11:32] <solsTiCe> I think inprevious version in reported always the same amount, corresponding to the amount of free space on fs. so now it seems to know what needs to be trimmed or not. or know what the ssd has trimmed given the command ?
[11:35] <penguin42> solsTiCe: Hmm yes, the manpage does say for -v that it reports the number of blocks sent from the filesystem to the block layer, so it should stay the same ish
[11:37] <solsTiCe> but here the second time it reports 0 bytes. so it does not anything the seocnd time ?
[11:39] <penguin42> yeh not sure
[13:33] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[13:36] <penguin42> hey BK
[13:51] <BluesKaj> hey penguin42
[13:52] <penguin42> hey BK
[20:16] <Erthe> Hey folks.  On Kubuntu 15.04, does anyone have a solution as of yet for logging out?  When I try to logout by any means the screen goes black but I can still move the mouse cursor; have to switch to tty2 and kill the pid.
[20:17] <Erthe> Beta 2.
[20:21] <penguin42> I don't think I've hit that, but try just typing poweroff at a terminal
[20:22] <lordievader> xennex81: Could you pastebin your sources.list?
[20:22] <xennex81> it has the lock on the /var/lib/dpkg/lock file.
[20:23] <lordievader> xennex81: That is for later, please pastebin your sources.list.
[20:25] <xennex81> busy
[20:25] <xennex81> http://pastebin.com/h8erYqQD
[20:28] <lordievader> As I figured, any errors when you run 'sudo apt-get update'?
[20:29] <lordievader> xennex81: If I am right in saying that you are Dutch I'd find it odd that you are not in #ubuntu-nl ;)
[20:33] <xennex81> i am never in homeborn channels ;-)
[20:33] <xennex81> .
[20:33] <xennex81> I also dislike homeborn chat forums or support forums.
[20:33] <xennex81> sorry, I had to take a shower for something.
[20:34] <xennex81> you know the source.list gets truncated by the installer right?
[20:34] <xennex81> I haven't killed the thing yet
[20:34] <lordievader> xennex81: It doesn't/
[20:35] <lordievader> It get's edited.
[20:35] <xennex81> it says it disables some sources like multiverse
[20:35] <xennex81> that's what I mean
[20:35] <lordievader> Correct, it will disable things (like ppa's).
[20:35] <xennex81> sorry
[20:36] <xennex81> there is a button called Show Terminal that doesn't respond.
[20:37] <lordievader> xennex81: Kill the Muon process, it probably crashed somewhere and doesn't do anything anyways.
[20:37] <xennex81> I am going to kill the python script see what it does
[20:41] <xennex81> it took away the update screen and I am now seeing what will happen if I do it again
[20:41] <xennex81> if I activate it again.
[20:42] <xennex81> but I'm reading a bit about the help file that gets shown
[20:42] <xennex81> with the community pages
[20:43] <xennex81> so i'll be back in a ziffy
[20:43] <xennex81> ;-)
[20:43] <xennex81> ziffy, what a word, I still don't know that word.
[20:43] <xennex81> ...
[20:43] <lordievader> Clearly you'll figure it out yourself ;)
[21:12] <MoPac> I'm encountering a problem with my CPU frequencies getting "stuck" at one value, like the governor has stopped adjusting them in response to need. But I'm not really sure where to start in terms of identifying the underlying issue. E.g., I notice that the machine is struggling under a moderate load under "performance".
[21:13] <MoPac> cpupower's frequency-info says the freq is 800MHz or 1.5GHz, and the fan is quiet. Using the indicator tool, I flip to "powersave", and the fans rev up along with the frequency. I can then choose my preferred governor and have it work (at least for a while)
[23:51] <spagewmf> Is this the channel for 15.04? I did a painless dist-upgrade to it, but am havingproblems getting it to load my encrypted swap and disk.
[23:53] <spagewmf> I installed the cryptsetup package and made my /dev/sda3 and /dev/sdb1 encrypted partitions.
[23:55] <spagewmf> Problem is boot doesn't know anything about these.  I think the problem is /lib/systemd/system-generators/systemd-cryptsetup-generator does not run at boot.
[23:56] <spagewmf> BTW, a  lot of documentation refers to /usr/lib/systemd/system-generators/systemd-cryptsetup-generator , but it's not there, it's in /lib/systemd/system-generators (no /usr)
[23:58] <spagewmf> there's a reference in systemd-cryptsetup-generator(8) "systemd-cryptsetup-generator understands the following kernel command line parameters:... luks=" which sounds like it makes the generator run early at boot.
[23:59] <spagewmf> so I think all I have to do is change my grub boot options to add this, but I'm not sure how.


[11:00] <rick_h_> morning frankban
[11:00] <frankban> hi rick_h_, how are you doing
[11:01] <rick_h_> frankban: good, sleepy
[11:01] <rick_h_> I've got a dr apt in 2hr but hopping in for a bit
[11:01] <frankban> rick_h_: yeah, me too, woke up at 5 this morning
[11:01] <frankban> rick_h_: I filed the expenses
[11:02] <rick_h_> frankban: saw that thanks.
[11:02] <rick_h_> frankban: I think rbasak started the bug stuff for quickstart. Robbie (big Robbie head of CDO) hit our quickstart issues and filed a new bug yesterday
[11:03] <rick_h_> frankban: there's another person that wants to be notified once it lands I added to the card because he was trying to demo it to customers
[11:03] <frankban> rick_h_: yes I saw bug 1306537 now has distro quickstart in it
[11:03] <_mup_> Bug #1306537: LXC local provider fails to provision precise instances from a trusty host <deploy> <local-provider> <lxc> <juju-core:Fix Released by wallyworld> <juju-core 1.18:In Progress by jameinel> <juju-quickstart:Fix Released by frankban> <juju-quickstart (Ubuntu):New> <juju-quickstart (Ubuntu Trusty):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1306537>
[11:04] <rick_h_> frankban: cool, yea so if you can work with rbasak as far as what we need to do to get that uploaded that'd be great
[11:04] <rick_h_> and we will spread the word once it's avaiable via an apt-get update for folks
[11:04] <frankban> rick_h_: pinged him this morning, maybe he's not yet available, will ping him again after lunch
[11:05] <rick_h_> frankban: gotcha very cool then thanks
[11:17] <rick_h_> frankban: oh and heads up. I ordered a 3 NUC setup and getting a multi-ip address internet service setup next week.
[11:18] <frankban> rick_h_: for MAAS?
[11:18] <rick_h_> frankban: the plan is to put the NUC stuff on one external IP on its own network for MAAS testing of everything
[11:18] <frankban> \o/
[11:18] <rick_h_> bundles, quickstart, and it's the first target for networks support
[11:18] <rick_h_> so will take me a couple of weeks to get setup and try it out, but will make that network available to the team
[11:19] <frankban> rick_h_: very cool!
[11:19] <rick_h_> yea, I'm looking forward to playing with it. The more stuff I see on MAAS the more I want to try it out myself :)
[11:21] <rick_h_> but yea, so we'll schedule the quickstart updates towards the start of the cycle but will wait until I get that setup to work on maas support
[11:22] <frankban> sounds good
[11:51]  * frankban lunches
[12:24] <bac> morning jujugui
[12:24] <rick_h_> morning bac
[12:24]  * bac expenses
[12:25]  * rick_h_ heads off to doc appt biab all
[12:40] <bac> rick_h_: let me know if you don't get my expense email.  unclear whether it went out or not.
[13:00] <jcsackett> morning all.
[13:00] <frankban> guihelp: is anyone available for reviewing https://github.com/juju/juju-gui/pull/273 ? thanks!
[13:02] <kadams54> frankban: I can take a look
[13:02] <frankban> kadams54: thank you
[13:34] <jcsackett> jujugui: anyone free to review https://github.com/juju/juju-gui/pull/274 ?
[13:34] <rick_h_> luca: ping, around?
[13:34] <luca> rick_h_: yup
[13:34] <rick_h_> luca: got a sec to chat?
[13:34] <luca> sure
[13:35] <luca> rick_h_: send me a link
[13:35] <rick_h_> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/gr4so7qqrt4gi2frkqwf6opspua?authuser=1&hl=en luca
[13:41] <redir> rick_h_: you back?
[13:49] <rick_h_> redir: yes
[13:49] <rick_h_> sorry, back from doc
[13:49] <redir> np you are stil gone on the calendar:)
[13:49] <redir> wanna walk me through the board at 1030?
[13:49] <rick_h_> sure thing
[13:49] <redir> cool
[14:03] <rick_h_> jcsackett: did you get a taker?
[14:04] <jcsackett> rick_h_: not yet.
[14:04] <jcsackett> it's very short.
[14:04] <rick_h_> jcsackett: k, will try to look shortly
[14:04] <jcsackett> rick_h_: ok.
[14:11] <rick_h_> jcsackett: done with one note
[14:12] <jcsackett> rick_h_: sensible comment. :p
[14:13] <rick_h_> on a monday? never!
[14:13] <rick_h_> oh right...it's tues...carry on
[14:13]  * jcsackett laughs
[14:14] <jcsackett> so, i did that cause i knew what was broken and it was a short fix--you want me to prioritize finishing il stuff or move into mv? i'm happy either way, just double checking priorities.
[14:14] <jcsackett> rick_h_: ^
[14:14]  * rick_h_ looks at the board
[14:14] <rick_h_> jcsackett: so yea, we should focus on demo bits. Looking
[14:16] <rick_h_> jcsackett: with francesco's work on the simulator you should be able to do the listing of known containers with tokens card?
[14:16] <jcsackett> rick_h_: works for me.
[14:16] <rick_h_> jcsackett: cool, frankban's branch hasn't landed but think it got an ok.
[14:17] <frankban> rick_h_: yes, it's landing now
[14:17] <rick_h_> oh, it it just got shipit
[14:17] <rick_h_> frankban: cool thanks
[14:17] <rick_h_> jcsackett: so yea, maybe get a coffee and then that'll help you with that
[14:17] <jcsackett> i'm always good with a plan that involves me getting coffee. :p
[14:30]  * redir slurps on coffee
[14:54] <rick_h_> jujugui call in 7
[14:57] <hatch> I have completely lost my voice so I'll just listen
[14:57] <rick_h_> hatch: ruh roh
[14:57] <rick_h_> time to get all the things landed hatch doesn't like!
[14:57] <hatch> lol
[15:01] <kadams54> SWEET
[15:03] <jcsackett> rick_h_: call?
[15:03] <rick_h_> oops
[15:03] <jcsackett> Makyo: ^
[15:04] <Makyo> jcsackett, on swap today, but if you give me a sec, I can join up.
[15:04] <jcsackett> oh, no worries, didn't know you were out Makyo
[15:05] <jcsackett> i was just pinging everyone who wasn't there. i should probably double check the holiday list first, huh? :p
[15:13] <rick_h_> frankban: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/gtxixiet6ihca2aqkckzubxldma?hl=en
[16:04]  * rick_h_ goes to long long call afk for a bit
[18:02]  * rick_h_ is back
[18:06] <rick_h_> Makyo: or hatch either of you guys have time to help me out with something?
[18:34] <rick_h_> jcsackett: around?
[18:52] <hatch> rick_h_ what do you need? Sorry I missed the ding
[18:52] <rick_h_> hatch: copied you on an email as an FYI
[18:52] <rick_h_> hatch: and wanted to ping a reminder on Huw's stuff so he can move forward today
[18:52] <hatch> sounds good, looking...
[18:53] <rick_h_> hatch: originally I was trying to find some way to figure out how to get ant to do drag/drop work but the DB stuff around units isn't ready yet.
[19:00] <hatch> ahh
[19:00] <hatch> yeah we might actually want to use yui DD module
[19:09] <hatch> so much spam on G+ today
[19:10] <hatch> http://blog.atom.io/2014/05/06/atom-is-now-open-source.html
[19:12] <hatch> unfortunately it can't be used for private projects as it reports back to the home base with the file names that are opened
[19:20] <rick_h_> that's a bit nuts
[19:24] <hatch> https://twitter.com/FromAnEgg/status/463759577843240960
[19:24] <hatch> yep
[19:25] <rick_h_> jujugui have to run down to get the key for the car, oil leak fixed now. I'm out for a while.
[19:25] <hatch> enjoy!
[19:28] <jcsackett> bloody hell, i've been disconnected all afternoon. sorry for missed pings, all.
[19:35] <hatch> it's ok, we knows us slackin
[19:41] <jcsackett> :p
[19:41] <jcsackett> rick_h_: just acking i got your email with ant, happy to help him tomorrow.
[20:15] <hatch> jujugui have you noticed that github no longer gives you the notification to create a pr on newly pushed branches?
[20:16] <jcsackett> hatch: i have, but i started using hub which lets me kick off pr's from the command line.
[20:16] <hatch> oh? got a link?
[20:18] <jcsackett> https://github.com/github/hub
[20:19] <hatch> thanks
[20:19] <hatch> It's a pita to have to go into the web ui to make a pr
[20:19] <jcsackett> agreed.
[20:19] <hatch> ugh i hate being sick!
[20:26] <bac> yay, spontaneous os reboot.  man that hasn't happened in a very long time.  bad os x.
[20:31] <hatch> bac uh oh
[20:31] <hatch> kernel panic?
[20:32] <bac> dunno.  just suddenly went to the tastefully grey screen of death
[20:32] <hatch> ahh yes that's osx's kernel panic screen
[20:32] <hatch> that happens to me when I try and run two different vm engines
[20:32] <bac> so much more soothing than windows blue
[20:32] <hatch> parallels + virtual box for example
[20:32] <bac> i've done that via vagrant
[20:33] <bac> i just had vmware, no vagrant
[20:33] <hatch> ahh yeh I'd see that vmware and vagrant would cause that
[20:34] <hatch> I don't know how vm engines work but it seems like you can only run one engine at a time
[21:27]  * rick_h_ is back for a little bit
[21:28]  * redir committed fixed tests and is going to add one for ngrams
[21:28] <rick_h_> redir: woot woot
[21:28]  * redir thinks he should get input for api changes before guessing though
[21:28] <redir> but stepping away for a minute now
[21:42] <rick_h_> kadams54: looking to chat today or if you're EOD we can chat tomorrow when you start please
[23:03] <huwshimi> Morning
[23:04] <hatch> morning
[23:05] <hatch> gw on that branch
[23:12] <hatch> huwshimi thx for the reply....odd UI for the service tab eh?
[23:13] <huwshimi> hatch: Thanks, I can see what the idea is, I think it will make more sense when the bar goes all the way across the screen
[23:13] <huwshimi> at the moment it's a bit hard to see that that first tab is part of the bar
[23:14] <hatch> yeah you might be right
[23:15] <huwshimi> hatch: Happy for me to land that then?
[23:16] <hatch> yep you had a :+1: and a QA OK so you can shipit


[05:41] <rww> handled ^
[05:59] <Flannel> rww: Did you ban for eternity?
[05:59] <rww> doubtful, given he already changed IPs i think
[05:59] <rww> (i didn't check, but he quit and reconnected so...)
[05:59] <Flannel> also doubtful, given the heat death of the universe :)
[06:00] <rww> i think freenode might die sometime before then
[06:00] <valorie> and here I thought we had God powerz
[06:00] <Flannel> if freenode dies, is he still banned?
[06:01] <Flannel> or is he unbanned?
[06:01] <rww> null pointer dereference
[06:02] <valorie> that would disappoint cfhowlett
[06:02] <rww> cfhowlett disappoints me ;(
[06:03] <Flannel> rww: That doesn't give you justification to shut down freenode
[08:32] <Tm_T> ikonia: I muted the IP, apparently you were onto something similar
[08:33] <ikonia> I did it ages ago though
[08:33] <ikonia> lagged
[08:33] <Tm_T> hahah
[09:27] <popey> 22:56:53 <+k1l> popey: is ubuntu mate going to be a flavour from 14.10 ?
[09:27] <popey> no
[09:27] <popey> we were too late
[09:27] <popey> we'll still make a release in a timely fashion
[09:30] <k1l> ah, ok :/
[13:10] <Pici> well this will be interesting, mplayer was dropped from debian/utopic
[13:34] <popey> link?
[13:36] <DJones> popey: Possibly https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mplayer/+publishinghistory
[13:37] <DJones> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=732159
[13:40] <Pici> aye
[13:40] <popey> ok, that makes sense
[13:41] <popey> mpv is nice!
[15:30] <Pici> did we lose the +f in #ubuntu at some point?
[15:35] <hggdh> seems like a long time ago
[17:16] <Tools_-_> Good afternoon: where can I find a ubuntu manual updated?


[07:05] <dholbach> good morning
[08:59] <ronny_> hi
[09:00] <Guest55986> hii
[09:00] <Guest55986> is there any one
[09:00] <Guest55986> who can help me
[12:57] <GuidoPallemans> Can I already apply thisfor review? http://guidopallemans.blogspot.be/2013/09/some-time-ago-i-saw-beautiful-lock.html I'd like to have some tips on the color usage, the user feedback (should it be more visible what the user is doing?) and more if possible
[12:58] <GuidoPallemans> and if this colors are any better: http://imgur.com/KhhaneM
[13:08] <GuidoPallemans> mhall119: has it started already?
[13:17] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: I don't know, let me check with the folks doing it
[13:23] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: so it's been cancelled, the design team didn't get any app submissions to work on
[13:23] <mhall119> they should be back next week though, if they have something to talk about
[13:23] <GuidoPallemans> arghh, that's a shame
[13:23] <mhall119> yeah, I should send them one of mine for input :)
[13:23] <GuidoPallemans> but where can I submit apps? I couldn't find anything on the web
[13:23] <GuidoPallemans> haha
[13:55] <CheeseBurg> When does the videos start?
[16:04] <CheeseBurg> Aren't supposed to be videos today or am I missing something?
[16:07] <CheeseBurg> No?
[19:07] <Connect> Q&A live?
[19:09] <pulu90> I think this week is cancelled
[19:10] <Connect> Ok. Tks.


[07:19] <freeflying> hi all, do you have artwork of edgy?
[07:32] <klepas> hello freeflying
[07:32] <klepas> elaborate on your question
[08:08] <freeflying> klepas: hi, just back  :)
[08:08] <freeflying> klepas: I need the picture of edgy( six persons)
[08:10] <freeflying> klepas: I'd enlarge this picture to 150x120cm
[10:54] <fschoep> Good morning everyone
[10:57] <klepas> moin
[11:05] <fschoep> HiddenWolf: ping
[11:06] <HiddenWolf> fschoep: good morning
[11:07] <fschoep> HiddenWolf: shall we PM for a while?
[12:19] <lapo> hi
[05:20] <troy_s> hello everyone.
[05:20] <troy_s> hope all is well.
[05:21] <troy_s> msikma -- i plan on uploading two or three potential palettes today.
[08:16] <msikma> troy_s: hey Troy
[08:16] <msikma> I hope you're aiming those palettes to be a bit more playful than just plain brown.
[09:31] <frandavid100> hi people
[09:46] <troy_s> msikma -- they are _real_ palettes -- with full colour spectrum.  not monochromatic palettes.
[10:05] <troy_s> all from professional design bibles.
[10:19] <msikma> troy_s: great! I can't wait to see them.


[00:22] <keithzg> Hmm, that's a purely wishlist item compared to my other problem at the moment, apparently one of the storage servers has a dead drive, but the 4-drive BTRFS raid10 pool won't even mount with `-o degraded`
[00:24] <keithzg> And meanwhile another server is giving "Reading package lists... Error!" on an apt update, yikes, everything's blowing up at work this Friday night . . .
[01:55] <keithzg> Hrmm. The label of the BTRFS pool is "heartland", and that's how it was being mounted via its fstab entry. But, running `sudo mount -o ro,degraded LABEL=heartland /media/heartland` is definitely not working, but it's not spitting out any errors either, it's just failing to actually do anything.
[02:03] <keithzg> A reboot later and surprisingly the same mount command worked fine this time, huh.
[02:15] <keithzg> Now my problem is that the `btrfs replace` command doesn't appear to be working. `sudo btrfs replace start 4 /dev/sde /media/heartland` should be what I need as I understand it, but running `btrfs replace status` just returns "Never started"
[02:25] <keithzg> I can't just add a device because I can only mount it read-only; attempting to mount it using only `-o degraded` gives "wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sdd" etc
[05:42] <keithzg> Okay, looks like that's a known issue and I need a new enough kernel to be able to mount a degraded 4-disk raid10 array. Unfortunately that "new enough" kernel is "literally the latest", heh. Time to call it a week and come back and make a custom live disk with kernel 4.14.2 on Monday.
[10:36] <lordievader> Good morninig
[10:36] <lordievader> morning even
[14:58] <macskay> if you had to take an educated guess: of all servers connected to the internet how much would you think run a webserver?
[18:08] <__mapo__> hi, i've tried to install ubuntu server 16.04.03 but I had a problem in the tasksel step, so I had to skip that step,install grub and reboot the system. Now to fix that missing step all I have to do is apt-get install ubuntu-server?
[18:09] <TJ-> __mapo__: you don't need to ask in multiple channels :)
[18:11] <compdoc> sudo tasksel install ubuntu-server maybe. google that
[18:11] <__mapo__> :) I wrote here because alkig pointed me to for server-specific issues
[18:13] <TJ-> did he? I must have missed that!
[18:14] <TJ-> It's generally ultra quiet in here weekends
[18:17] <__mapo__> compdoc: sudo tasksel install ubuntu-server did nothing, sudo tasksel install server ended up with an "apt-get failed (100)" error, which is basically my problem at hand
[18:17] <__mapo__> should we continue here or go back to ubuntu?
[18:21] <compdoc> you have run 'sudo apt-get update' ?
[18:23] <__mapo__> yes
[18:25] <compdoc> mgith be easier to just start from scratch
[18:25] <trekkie1701c> Probably.
[18:26] <trekkie1701c> You can modify /etc/apt/sources.list to include only CD sources and update from that but it's a pain.
[18:26] <compdoc> When i install, I only consider the install a success if there are no errors. I do it over until I figure out what Im doing wrong
[18:26] <trekkie1701c> Like, I had to boot the CD in recovery mode to even get mounting to copy the files and do all that.
[18:27] <trekkie1701c> And yeah, if I hadn't been using the server for other things I would've just done a reinstall
[18:28] <__mapo__> I just came from a fresh install and it all started with a dependency error in the tasksel step during installation, which prevented me to install the task I wanted, including the "basic ubuntu server"
[18:30] <__mapo__> compdoc: with your criteria my install was a fail, but whatever I tried I just couldn't get this step to complete successfully
[18:31] <trekkie1701c> Bad disc?
[18:35] <__mapo__> you mean the installation disc? how can it be the cause of a dependency error?
[18:37] <trekkie1701c> If you've tried repeatedly and it's refusing to get past it, that's something to look in to.
[18:38] <__mapo__> I totally agree, but at this point I'm not sure I'm willing to re-install the machine again
[18:42] <trekkie1701c> When I installed my home server I wound up spending about a day banging my head against getting it to work
[18:43] <__mapo__> how do I clean the apt package list?
[23:31] <apb1963> Greetings!  I've been ripping my hair out all week trying to figure out how to name serve my own domain.  I tried installing bind but after struggling with it for hours and days, I couldn't get it working and so that led me to dnsmasq which led me to Network Manager & dhcp-client and then finally resolvconf.  I've read through dozens of setup guides, articles and likely hundreds of posts.  So, before I start bleeding from the eyes and/or head,
[23:31] <apb1963> what is the Ubuntu "right way" to serve up my own DNS master domain?  Is bind the proper way or is it one of these other methods?  My router serves up DHCP so I guess I wouldn't want to run dhcp-client I don't think.; v16.04 LTS
[23:33] <rbasak> apb1963: a domain for the Internet at large?
[23:33] <rbasak> apb1963: does your server have a publicly reachable IP address?
[23:33] <apb1963> yes
[23:33] <rbasak> Use bind
[23:33] <apb1963> ok, in that case the most recent error I'm getting is: rndc[31343]: rndc: connect failed: <IP_ADDRESS>#953: connection refused
[23:34] <rbasak> Sounds like bind hasn't started up
[23:34] <apb1963> Right.  And it won't.  Because of that error.
[23:34] <apb1963> it's catch-22
[23:34] <rbasak> You don't use rndc to start bind
[23:34] <rbasak> Only to signal it once it's running
[23:35] <apb1963> I don't use it at all.  I simply startup bind.  What it does with rndc is beyond me.
[23:35] <apb1963> let me paste it for you.... hang on
[23:35] <TJ-> apb1963: have you created a zone file for your domain?
[23:36] <apb1963> rbasak, https://pastebin.com/csesAXn9
[23:36] <apb1963> TJ-, Yes
[23:37] <rbasak> Looks like you're missing some of bind's log.
[23:37] <rbasak> Try sylog.
[23:37] <rbasak> syslog
[23:39] <TJ-> apb1963: did you use named-checkconf and named-checkzone  ?
[23:41] <apb1963> tj- yes.  all ok
[23:41] <apb1963> named[31329]: open: /etc/bind/named.conf: permission denied
[23:41] <apb1963> in syslog
[23:41] <apb1963> ll /etc/bind/named.conf
[23:41] <apb1963> -rw-r--r-- 1 root bind 463 Nov  8 05:00 /etc/bind/named.conf
[23:43] <TJ-> apb1963: how about the directory: "ls -ld /etc/bind"
[23:43] <apb1963> drw-r-Sr-- 3 root bind 4096 Nov 25 13:25 /etc/bind
[23:44] <rbasak> That looks pretty screwed up.
[23:44] <apb1963> What should it be?
[23:44] <rbasak> I'd have to fire up a container and check.
[23:45] <rbasak> 755 or perhaps 750 I expect.
[23:45] <TJ-> That looks correct; I've jsut compared it
[23:45] <rbasak> drwxr-sr-x 2 root bind 4096 Nov 25 23:45 /etc/bind
[23:45] <rbasak> In a Xenial container
[23:46] <apb1963> hmm... I don't know the difference between s and S
[23:46] <TJ-> apb1963: is there another service listening on port 53?
[23:46] <rbasak> S is missing the executable bit.
[23:46] <apb1963> tcp        0      0 <IP_ADDRESS>:53            <IP_ADDRESS>:*               LISTEN      4106/dnsmasq
[23:47] <apb1963> nobody    4106  1176  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:07 /usr/sbin/dnsmasq --no-resolv --keep-in-foreground --no-hosts --bind-interfaces --pid-file=/var/run/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.pid --listen-address=<IP_ADDRESS> --cache-size=0 --conf-file=/dev/null --proxy-dnssec --enable-dbus=org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.dnsmasq --conf-dir=/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d
[23:48] <apb1963> Seems to be tied to networkmanager perhaps?
[23:49] <TJ-> Yes, it is. Not sure if that'd cause named not to start though. Depends what interfaces you've told named to bind to
[23:50] <rbasak> I don't understand.  Fix those first.
[23:51] <TJ-> It's an apparmor issue I think
[23:51] <rbasak> No, it's a permission issue on /etc/bind.
[23:51] <rbasak> You might *then* have an issue with something else binding to <IP_ADDRESS>:53, but you're not even getting that far.
[23:53] <apb1963> ok, reinstalling just to verify I didn't hose it myself... or if I did.
[23:53] <apb1963> ll /etc/bind
[23:53] <apb1963> ls: cannot access '/etc/bind': No such file or directory
[23:53] <apb1963> there's proof :)
[23:54] <apb1963> I guess it was me
[23:55] <apb1963> drwxr-sr-x 2 root bind 4096 Nov 25 15:54 /etc/bind/
[23:56] <apb1963> Active: active (running) since Sat 2017-11-25 15:55:40 PST; 11s ago
[23:56] <apb1963> Boom
[23:56] <apb1963> I'm curious.. why doesn't apt-get purge clean out config files and dirs?
[23:57] <apb1963> I would have expected /etc/bind to be purged... in the purge.
[23:57] <apb1963> oh.  Thanks for your help guys!!!!  I should have come here before spending dozens of hours on it.  Oh well :)
[23:57] <rbasak> Purging the bind9 package does clean out /etc/bind for me in a Xenial container.
[23:58] <rbasak> You're welcome :)
[23:58] <apb1963> it doesn't if you add any files
[23:58] <apb1963> Plus it should also delete the dir itself.
[23:59] <rbasak> dpkg: warning: while removing bind9, directory '/etc/bind' not empty so not removed
[23:59] <apb1963> right
[23:59] <apb1963> so, nice warning... cool.  But not the documented behavior of purge
[23:59] <rbasak> The packaging system doesn't know if files from other packages are left in there.
[23:59] <rbasak> It's by design.
[23:59] <rbasak> Purge will only remove stuff shipped or managed by the package itself.


[15:01] <barry> #startmeeting
[15:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is barry.
[15:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:01] <barry> hello and welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
[15:01] <bac> me
[15:01] <abentley> me
[15:01] <gary_poster> me
[15:01] <rockstar> me
[15:01] <mars> me
[15:01] <al-maisan> me
[15:01] <adeuring> me
[15:01] <BjornT> me
[15:01] <henninge> me
[15:01] <noodles775> me
[15:01] <bigjools> me
[15:02] <gmb> me
[15:02] <barry> cprov: ping
[15:02] <barry> danilos: ping
[15:02] <danilos> me
[15:02] <barry> EdwinGrubbs: ping
[15:02] <cprov> me
[15:03] <EdwinGrubbs> me
[15:03] <barry> intellectronica: ping
[15:03] <intellectronica> me
[15:03] <barry> salgado: ping
[15:03] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[15:03] <salgado> me
[15:03] <barry>  * Roll call
[15:03] <barry>  * Don't forget your OCR slot
[15:03] <barry>  * Action items
[15:03] <barry>  * Mentoring update
[15:03] <barry>    * need a volunteer to mentor noodles
[15:03] <barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:03] <barry>    * JS coding guidelines (mars, intellectronica)
[15:03] <barry>    * ampersands-in-urls (abentley)
[15:04] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Don't forget your OCR slot
[15:04] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Don't forget your OCR slot
[15:05] <barry> i've heard some rumors that folks sometimes miss their ocr slot.  just wanted to ask that you please try to fill them.  we all count on each other to get branches reivewed and landed
[15:05] <barry> i know we're all busy, but think of the team!
[15:05] <barry> if you really can't fill your slot for some reason, please let me or your fellow reviewers know, and try to find a backup if possible
[15:06] <barry> and remember, we have sabbaticals if you're burned out for a while
[15:06] <barry> that's it from me!  any thoughts?
[15:06] <cprov> yeah, I feel guilty.
[15:07] <al-maisan> I will be on secondment to the foundations team for the next 3 months
[15:07] <abentley> barry: Perhaps, let everyone know if you
[15:07] <fjlacoste> me
[15:07] <abentley> 're sick and can't find a replacement.
[15:07] <bigjools> al-maisan: Ubuntu Foundations, to be precise
[15:07] <barry> abentley: +1
[15:07] <al-maisan> ..and hence not in a position to review on Tuesdays
[15:07] <abentley> (rather than just reviewers)
[15:07] <barry> a quick email to the ml would help
[15:07] <al-maisan> bigjools: thanks for the correction :)
[15:08] <cprov> fjlacoste: is this nick the dutch version for 'flacoste' ?
[15:08] <barry> al-maisan: cool, we'll need to shuffle ocr schedule around
[15:08] <al-maisan> barry: thanks!
[15:09] <barry> al-maisan: i'll mark up ReviewerSchedule.  tuesdays aren't too bad, with gmb in euro and bac & rockstar in west
[15:09] <al-maisan> OK .. that's good.
[15:09] <danilos> I am off this Thursday (swap day)
[15:09] <danilos> which means, no euro coverage tomorrow unless someone wants to take over
[15:09] <cprov> danilos: err, me too, I was counting on you ...
[15:10]  * bigjools has a 10k branch coming soon as well, what a shame
[15:10] <danilos> any candidate willing to take Thursday out of my hands is welcome to
[15:10] <bigjools> 10k LOC, that is
[15:10] <barry> danilos: ouch!  no coverage for tomorrow?
[15:10] <rockstar> This meeting probably isn't a good venue to share when you'll miss OCR
[15:10] <cprov> barry: it's already bad now that I'm on EU timezone.
[15:10] <danilos> rockstar: well, if we are reminded how we need to find a replacement, it might be a good place to find one
[15:11] <danilos> cprov, barry: ok, let's take this outside the meeting
[15:11] <gmb> bigjools: Good luck with that ;)
[15:11] <rockstar> danilos: at the expense of the other things on the agenda?
[15:11]  * cprov nods
[15:11] <bigjools> r=gmb!
[15:11] <al-maisan> :)
[15:11] <gmb> AHAHAAHAHANo.
[15:11] <danilos> rockstar: if it's easy, yes... since nobody has volunteered, it's not, so let's move on
[15:11] <barry> cprov: we can move you to euro slot and we can split up bac/rockstar or salgado/barry
[15:12] <barry> i will now skip around
[15:12] <barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
[15:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
[15:12] <barry>    * need a volunteer to mentor noodles
[15:12] <barry> we need a mentor for noodles, preferrably in euro timeslot
[15:12] <cprov> I can do it.
[15:13] <noodles775> Thanks cprov :)
[15:13] <barry> cprov: awesome thanks
[15:13] <cprov> It's my pleasure.
[15:13] <barry> cprov, noodles775 we'll discuss off line where we can slot you guys in
[15:13] <noodles775> Yup
[15:13] <cprov> okay
[15:13] <henninge> off-line? like writing letters?
[15:14] <henninge> ;)
[15:14] <rockstar> henninge: yes.  Support your local post.
[15:14] <barry> henninge: pigeon (not pidgin :)
[15:14] <barry> henninge: any word on your mentoring?  how's it going?
[15:14] <abentley> rockstar: In soviet canada, posts support you.
[15:14] <rockstar> abentley: :)
[15:14] <henninge> barry: very well, thank you
[15:15] <henninge> barry: very well, thank you
[15:15] <henninge> barry: adeuring is doing a good job
[15:15] <barry> i knew he would!  good to hear, thanks
[15:16] <barry> any other mentoring issues?
[15:16] <adeuring> well, I'd say, no complaints with henninge's work :)
[15:16] <henninge> adeuring: ;)
[15:17] <barry> adeuring: i hope you're cracking the whip!
[15:17] <barry> :)
[15:17] <adeuring> barry: from time to time ;)
[15:17] <barry> :-D
[15:17] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[15:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[15:18] <barry>  * gary_poster to take importfascist and rSP() discussion to ml
[15:18] <gary_poster> h'ain't done it.  Intend to do it today.
[15:18] <barry> gary_poster: cool
[15:19] <barry>  * allenap to look into storm/sqlobject result set compatibility
[15:19] <barry> oops, he's not here
[15:19] <gmb> allenap's away this week
[15:19] <barry>  * flacoste to work on API reviewer cheat sheet
[15:19] <gmb> I suspect he didn't get very far though
[15:19] <fjlacoste> i didn't
[15:19] <barry> gmb: nod
[15:19] <barry> fjlacoste: keep it on the list? :)
[15:20] <fjlacoste> sure
[15:20] <bigjools> he changed his nick this week out of embarassment maybe
[15:20] <fjlacoste> lol
[15:20] <barry> cool
[15:20] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:20] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:20] <barry> actually, there were two items we didn't get to from last week
[15:20] <barry>    * JS coding guidelines (mars, intellectronica)
[15:20] <fjlacoste> mthaddon: can we close merge to devel?
[15:21] <barry> mars, intellectronica can either of you talk about this today?
[15:21] <gary_poster> fjlacoste: wrong room :-)
[15:21] <intellectronica> i don't remember raising this. mars?
[15:21] <mars> barry, yep
[15:21] <barry> mars: the floor is yours
[15:21] <intellectronica> perhaps just to remind about testing with devmode off as part of the review
[15:21] <mars> so this is a question to the JavaScript coders in the room
[15:22] <mars> in Python, we are always explicit in comparisons: if x is not None
[15:22] <mars> instead of: if !x
[15:23] <barry> mars: does js have the same expanded notion of trueness/falseness as python, or is it more strict like java?
[15:23] <mars> so Tom and I were debating doing the same in JavaScript.  I prefer the coercive form, he prefers explicit
[15:23] <mars> barry, the types aren't as clean
[15:23] <intellectronica> barry: it's even more lax, and very confusing, with coercing to boolean
[15:23] <rockstar> I prefer the explicit, but it's not always possible.
[15:23] <mars> barry, in JavaScript, null == undefined == 0 == false
[15:24] <rockstar> Er, not always clean.
[15:24] <intellectronica> my position was that i like the explicit version, having learned to appreciate it coding (and reading) python
[15:24] <mars> right
[15:24] <rockstar> intellectronica: I tend to agree with you.
[15:24] <barry> rockstar: why is it not always possible?
[15:24] <mars> and mine was that because JavaScript can throw 'undefined' at you, you need the coercive form
[15:24] <intellectronica> rockstar: both options are possible technically. it's just a matter of style
[15:24] <gary_poster> mochikit has a whole equivalence framework in part because of the JS bool mess (but there are other nastinesses as well)
[15:24] <mars> gary_poster, yech
[15:25] <mars> didn't know that
[15:25] <rockstar> barry: intellectronica: I've been bitten by bugs in cases of empty strings evaluating to true.
[15:25] <barry> ew
[15:25] <EdwinGrubbs> I just worry about all tests having to be (x [15:25] <bigjools> oof
[15:25] <mars> barry, and [] and {} are also true
[15:25] <intellectronica> rockstar: well, that's exactly why you'd want to compare explicitly
[15:25] <barry> ew ew
[15:25] <rockstar> I feel like [15:26] <rockstar> intellectronica: so you're saying I should have used if x != ''
[15:26] <intellectronica> rockstar: yup
[15:26] <barry> remember that in our python style guide, we're allowed to use "if not foo:" when foo can be of several types (e.g. None or [] for example)
[15:26] <intellectronica> rockstar: or use foo.length
[15:26] <barry> we just require a comment explaining that the simpler choice was deliberate
[15:26] <rockstar> We kinda lose the loose typing at that point.  :/
[15:26] <intellectronica> explicit comparison is an easy rule to follow. just compare explicitly to anything you might expect be in the value
[15:26] <flacoste> rockstar: if x !== ''
[15:27] <mars> barry, ok, in JavaScript, you sometimes still want explicit comparison, if null is a flag value
[15:27] <rockstar> flacoste: yea, I know.  Was in a hurry.
[15:27] <barry> mars: yep
[15:27] <abentley> barry: Even so, I find "if foo == [] or foo is None" shorter than "if not foo" plus a comment.
[15:27] <mars> barry, so in my mind the question more revolves around the 'wandering undefineds' problem
[15:28] <rockstar> Okay, I think we should be explicit, and anywhere we aren't requires some serious 'splainin.
[15:28] <intellectronica> rockstar: loose typing is sometimes great, and sometimes it makes the code hard to read. if you have loose typing it's up to you to protect against getting values you don't expect
[15:28] <barry> abentley: well, if len(foo) == 0 or foo is None, but it /is/ more explicit
[15:28] <rockstar> intellectronica: yes, this is true.  Python really is awesome at its typing.
[15:29] <barry> aren't unexpected undefineds a sign of buggy code?
[15:29] <mars> so, is "if (!config) {}" hard to read?
[15:30] <barry> mars: not hard to read, hard to know the intent
[15:30] <mars> intellectronica, rockstar, because 'config' could be null, if the user explicity said "I don't want this parameter", or "undefined", if the user just passed in some_config_obj.some_attr
[15:30] <intellectronica> mars: it is, yes, harder than if (config !== null && config !== undefined)
[15:30] <rockstar> mars: yeah, I agree with intellectronica
[15:31] <mars> ok.  I should ask what you guys thing of trinary operators too, because that is the other place where I use coercion
[15:31] <intellectronica> trinary operators? as in condition ? then-expr : else-expr ?
[15:31] <mars> var bar = cfg ? cfg.foo : 0;
[15:32]  * barry looks at his own first pathetic attempt at js and realizes he needs to fix his code ;)
[15:32] <mars> but I guess the intent there is clear
[15:32] <mars> and it's idiomatic, so no issue?
[15:32] <intellectronica> mars: thses should be used sparingly, but when you do, there's no reason why you can't use the verbose version
[15:32] <intellectronica> the case above is quite idiomatic
[15:32] <barry> mars: i would love to see parentheses after the = and before the ;
[15:32] <rockstar> mars: let us avoid them.  Clarity in code, and optimization when the javascript is "compiled"
[15:33] <intellectronica> but following a simple rule is so much easier than making exceptions for idioms or whatever
[15:33] <rockstar> intellectronica: +1
[15:33] <barry> intellectronica: +1
[15:33] <gmb> +1
[15:34] <noodles775> +1
[15:34] <barry> do we need to vote?  mars?
[15:34] <mars> you guys would have a great time browsing the jquery source code then :)
[15:34] <intellectronica> :D
[15:34] <mars> barry, ^ that looks like a vote to me
[15:34] <rockstar> mars: :)
[15:34] <mars> a majority vote, rather
[15:34] <barry> yep
[15:35] <rockstar> DONE!
[15:35] <barry> [AGREED] explicit is better than implicit in javascript comparisons
[15:35] <MootBot> AGREED received:  explicit is better than implicit in javascript comparisons
[15:35] <barry>    * ampersands-in-urls (abentley)
[15:35] <barry> abentley: i don't remember the details on this, do you?
[15:35] <abentley> barry: We didn't talk much.
[15:36] <barry> abentley: the floor is yours
[15:36] <abentley> Everyone knows that ampersands must be provided as entity references in HTML, right?
[15:36] <abentley> e.g. &
[15:37] <abentley> Everyone knows that this applies when the ampersand is part of a URL in an attribute, right?
[15:37] <mars> yes :)
[15:37] <abentley> e.g.
[15:37] <mars> no, I didn't know that
[15:38] <abentley> mars: It is very common to do otherwise, but it's not valid HTML.
[15:38] <mars> would the w3c validator catch that?  Or our linter?
[15:38] <intellectronica> abentley: i think the nest solution for that is to build your URL in python, using a formatter
[15:38] <intellectronica> it's quite rare that you'll have a fixed URL with GET parameters you can include in a template directly
[15:39] <abentley> mars: I think the wc3 validator would.  I can report back if you like.
[15:39] <barry> abentley: wouldn't that be example.ort?a=b%26b&b=c ?
[15:39] <abentley> intellectronica: That's kinda where I'm going to.  Should we be calling "escape" on URLs that we provide to TAL as part of a structure?
[15:40] <mars> abentley, we first need to answer a larger question - it is valid HTML, but do we actually feel the need to adhere to it strictly?
[15:40] <rockstar> barry: yea, that is right.
[15:40] <mars> abentley, I ask because I don't know if we absolutely ensure we have valid markup throughout Launchpad
[15:40] <mars> abentley, or if it is a "nice to have"
[15:40] <rockstar> mars: it's a goal we should aspire to.
[15:40] <abentley> barry: No, that would make the value of a "b&"
[15:40] <abentley> barry: I think.
[15:40] <intellectronica> abentley: i think we need to go further, and have a function that builds the url for us from base url and a two-tuple of query parameters
[15:41] <mars> rockstar, agreed
[15:41] <barry> th evalue would be 'b&b'
[15:41] <barry> was that not the intent?
[15:41] <abentley> barry: no.
[15:41] <barry> er, sorry, 'b&'
[15:41] <abentley> The intent was a=b, c=d
[15:42] <rockstar> Well, in the case that brought this up, I was just using canonical_url, so maybe canonical_url would be good to escape these things.
[15:42] <BjornT> rockstar: canonical_url is used in other places than html templates
[15:43] <abentley> rockstar: If canonical_url html-escaped the URLs, they would not be valid URLs.  They would be the HTML-escaped forms of valid URLs.
[15:43] <barry> intellectronica: well, urlllib.urlencode() is more or less what we should be using i think
[15:43] <rockstar> BjornT: okay,  I was just throwing it out there.
[15:43] <barry> and we may already be using it
[15:44] <abentley> barry: The unescaped URL is "example.ort?a=b&c=d" and the escaped version is "example.ort?a=b&c=d"
[15:44] <intellectronica> but if canonical_url would accept query parameters, all we need is for fmt:url to escape the result
[15:45] <intellectronica> or maybe i'm talking nonsense, because how would you pass the parameters to fmt:url :-/
[15:45] <barry> abentley: how does a url parser know that your second example doesn't map to {'a':'b', 'amp;c':'d'} ?
[15:45] <abentley> intellectronica: Right.  TAL can DTRT if we let it.  But if we pass it as a structure, we have to take care of it ourselves.
[15:46] <abentley> barry: A URL parser should not see the escaped version, because the HTML parser should have already decoded it.
[15:46] <intellectronica> abentley: so i guess just 1. make canonical_url accept query_parameters. 2. add a wrapper around it that escapes the result
[15:46] <rockstar> intellectronica: +1
[15:46] <barry> well, the html parser then.  seems ambiguous syntax to me
[15:46] <abentley> barry: & always introduces an entity reference.  Where's the ambiguity?
[15:47] <flacoste> abentley: you are saying that all urls containing & to separate query parameters in HTML should be escaped?
[15:47] <BjornT> intellectronica: why do we need a wrapper, instead of using escape() on the result?
[15:47] <barry> well not always.  it doesn't in the a=b&c=d case (even if that's not standard, its widespread common practice)
[15:47] <intellectronica> BjornT: one less function to call. but i agree, it doesn't matter that much
[15:48] <abentley> flacoste: Yes.
[15:48] <flacoste> ?
[15:48] <flacoste> the above would be correct?
[15:48] <BjornT> flacoste: you could simplify that by saying that all urls in html should be escaped
[15:48] <flacoste> but nobody does that!
[15:48] <abentley> barry: The spec is unambiguous.  Browsers have to be more careful.
[15:48] <flacoste> that's non-sense
[15:48] <flacoste> all of the web is broken
[15:48] <flacoste> i mean even gmail doesn't escape it's URLs
[15:48] <abentley> flacoste: Okay, so your vote is to ignore the parts of HTML that we don't like?
[15:49] <flacoste> yes
[15:49] <barry> abentley: maybe, but in that case, it's all guesswork
[15:49] <flacoste> especially if it's a part that nobody cares about
[15:49] <BjornT> intellectronica: well, using escape means one less function to maintain. it also seems that passing query parameters to canonical_url is quite rare; usually we have specific views we pass the parameters to
[15:49] <mars> flacoste, yes, same goes for CSS IE hacks - it generates invalid CSS, but pragmatism justifies it
[15:49] <rockstar> flacoste: that sounds very Microsoft of you.  :)
[15:49] <abentley> barry: That's right.  Wouldn't it be nice if more sites provided valid HTML so they didn't have to?
[15:49] <barry> abentley: sure.  but it'll never happen :)
[15:49] <flacoste> abentley: did you try HTML escaping a URL in an href?
[15:50] <barry> abentley: can you tell me, are you trying to solve a real problem (i.e. is there an open bug)?
[15:50] <abentley> flacoste: I've done it in the past.  I didn't do it specifically for this meeting.
[15:50] <flacoste> abentley: and the browser submitted the right thing?
[15:50] <barry> abentley: i'm not being facetious.  i'm really curious if we have users who are affected by this
[15:51] <abentley> barry: It's not related to a bug.  It's something that came up in a review.
[15:51] <barry> abentley: ah, ok, thx
[15:51] <abentley> flacoste: Yes.
[15:51] <barry> abentley: i'm sorry, we've run out of time again.  and apologies for going late today.  perhaps we can take this to the ml?
[15:51] <BjornT> flacoste: gmail's front page does escape &. at least the links i looked at
[15:52] <flacoste> really!
[15:53] <BjornT> flacoste: also, we usually do it in launchpad as well, because tal does it for us
[15:53] <abentley> flacoste: On this page, the "wish I were an asshole" link is escaped: http://aaronbentley.com/music/news/myspaced-11-09-2006
[15:53] <flacoste> and amazon too, look at that!
[15:54] <flacoste> you learn something new everyday!
[15:54] <abentley> barry: No worries.  I'm not sure it's worth ML discussion, even.
[15:54] <barry> we should do this by not doing this <wink>.  iow, whatever code we use to inject these urls into html pages should do it for us
[15:55] <barry> abentley: ok.  let's cut this off then, since we're 10 minutes over
[15:55] <BjornT> barry: that's how it works today, except that you can turn it off by using structure
[15:55] <barry> BjornT: so structure should dtrt!
[15:56] <barry> anyway, we can take this up again next week or go to the ml
[15:56] <abentley> barry: I think that would involve AI...
[15:56] <barry> #endmeeting
[15:56] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:56.
[15:56] <intellectronica> thanks barry
[15:56] <barry> apologies for going over today
[15:56] <abentley> thanks barry
[15:56] <barry> abentley: thanks for bringing this up!
[23:31] <mwhudson> barry: hello
[23:32] <barry> #startmeeting
[23:32] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:32. The chair is barry.
[23:32] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:32] <barry> mwhudson: hi
[23:32] <barry> jml: hi
[23:32] <barry> thumper: hi
[23:32] <barry> jml, thumper ping?
[23:32] <jml> hi
[23:33] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[23:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[23:33] <barry>  * Roll call
[23:33] <barry>  * Action items
[23:33] <barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[23:33] <barry>    * JS coding guidelines (mars, intellectronica)
[23:33] <barry>    * ampersands-in-urls (abentley)
[23:33] <barry> any word from thumper?
[23:34] <jml> he said he was going to attend.
[23:34] <mwhudson> i'm sure he'll read this eventually :)
[23:34] <barry> ok, we'll just start anyway :)
[23:34] <thumper> hereish
[23:34] <barry> [TOPIC] update from ameu
[23:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  update from ameu
[23:35] <barry> so a couple of things from the ameu meeting...
[23:35] <barry> al-maisan will be on load to ubuntu foundations for the next 3 months so won't be doing reviews
[23:35] <barry> cprov moved to euro timezone and will be mentoring noodles
[23:35] <mwhudson> ubuntu foundations ?
[23:35] <barry> i'll need to juggle the ocr schedule a bit
[23:36] <barry> mwhudson: apparently so!
[23:36] <mwhudson> which team is that again? cjwatson's?
[23:36] <jml> well, Robbie's the manager, but yes.
[23:36] <barry> danilo_ and cprov are off tomorrow, lots of people are off on friday (not us nose-to-the-grindstone americans tho)
[23:36] <barry> dunno what he'll be working on
[23:37] <mwhudson> ok
[23:37] <barry> we talked about javascript coding guidelines for true/false comparisons and decided that our js code should follow python's eibti rules
[23:38] <barry> i.e. if (foo [23:38] <mwhudson> okay
[23:38]  * thumper hopes if (!foo)
[23:38] <jml> sure. as long as it works.
[23:38] <barry> we also had a long discussion about escaping & in url query strings, without any resolution
[23:38] <barry> thumper: sorry, nope
[23:39] <mwhudson> are our javascript coding guidelines written down anywhere?
[23:39] <thumper> :(
[23:39] <barry> thumper: mars was the lone holdout
[23:39] <jml> I can't spot the question being responded to
[23:39] <mars> mwhudson, http://dev.launchpad.net/JavaScriptReviewNotes
[23:39] <barry> mwhudson: such as they are: https://dev.launchpad.net/JavaScriptReviewNotes
[23:40] <barry> mars: hi!  this reminds me: can you capture this decision on that page?
[23:40] <mars> sure
[23:40] <mwhudson> mars, barry: thanks
[23:40] <barry> mars: thanks
[23:40] <barry> that's it from ameu
[23:40] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[23:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[23:41] <barry> no action items for asiapac
[23:41] <barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
[23:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
[23:41] <barry> none for you guys ;)
[23:41] <barry> that's really all i have, so...
[23:42] <barry> [TOPIC] peanut gallery
[23:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
[23:42] <barry> do you guys have anything you want to bring up?
[23:42] <jml> nothing from me. there's not been any code to review :)
[23:42] <mwhudson> heh yeah
[23:42] <mwhudson> integration iz us
[23:42] <barry> you guys are welcome to join me friday america time :)
[23:43] <barry> well, if there's nothing else...
[23:44] <jml> still no.
[23:44] <barry> okay!
[23:44] <barry> #endmeeting
[23:44] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:44.
[23:44] <barry> thanks guys
[23:44] <mwhudson> thanks barry