[12:04] <mdke> mako, both sides seem to say that :/
[12:04] <mako> mdke: exactly
[12:04] <Kamion> well, if they won't talk, then *somebody* has to go, I guess ...
[12:04] <smurfix> mdke: exactly, albeit differently
[12:05] <mdke> i have tried to mediate and proposed a solution
[12:05] <mako> smurfix and i talked to both sides seperately and said basically, "can you guys, together or independently, come up with a solution for choosing and reevaluating leadership that you both would find fair"
[12:05] <mako> we tried to get them together to have that discussion as well
[12:05] <smurfix> Kamion: abelli did, and the "other side" seems to start getting their act together WRT a new locoteam
[12:05] <mako> but by that time, abelli has basically disengaged completely
[12:05] <mdke> yes he is too disillusioned
[12:06] <mdke> the two sides are unlikely to work with each other
[12:06] <mdke> imo
[12:06] <mako> so yeah...
[12:06] <mdke> anyhow
[12:06] <mdke> i'd come to talk about the solution rather than the problem
[12:06] <mako> sounds good :)
[12:06] <smurfix> the new locoteam rules we've talked about last time should help avoid that heavy-handedness in the future; one part of the problem was that abelli was simply here first
[12:06] <mdke> we'd proposed a team without a leadership.
[12:06] <mdke> in which the group consensus takes decisions
[12:06] <mako> well, that was a problem intitially.. abelli did some great stuff and had some great ideas
[12:07] <mako> and i still hope he can find someway to get back involved in teh community
[12:07] <ogra> yeah
[12:07] <mdz> smurfix: are those published somewhere?
[12:07] <mako> mdz: they will be
[12:07] <smurfix> mdz: sure, I've changed the howto
[12:07] <mdz> hno73: just a moment ago there was an agenda item regarding the status of the website competition; if you want to give a brief update, that would be good
[12:08] <smurfix> mdz: Create *team page, get team, document what team does, figure out who's "leader" -in a nutshell
[12:08] <mako> i think not having a leader at first.. but letting it emerge from the group  was something we mentioned last time
[12:08] <smurfix> mdz: Might make sense to deemphatize the "leader" bit further
[12:08] <mdke> i was hoping to discuss the possibility of our group (without a leader) interacting successfully with you guys
[12:09] <mako> mdke: so is your decision to not have a leader for a while?
[12:09] <hno73> Right, so we've picked three winners and are now implementing the new layout
[12:09] <mako> mdke: i would completely understand taht
[12:09] <mdke> mako, i'll hang on until the website point is done
[12:09] <hno73> Actually, the Kubuntu site is already using the new layout with some colour changes
[12:09] <smurfix> mdke: One or two people should be the contact, preferably those who speak English best ;-)
[12:09] <Kamion> mdke: I certainly don't think we mind having consensus presented by a couple of people, rather than an individual leader's decision
[12:10] <mdke> mako, two of us have volunteered as secretaries for the group, based on the enrico/docteam model
[12:10] <mdz> hno73: oh, I didn't realize that about the Kubuntu site. nice
[12:10] <Kamion> mdke: if you need a couple of people to be contacts to avoid accusations of powermongering, we'd certainly understand
[12:10] <mdke> Kamion, our role would be to gather up threads of consensus
[12:10] <mdke> and one or both of us could act as representative for you guys
[12:10] <Kamion> mdke: *nod*
[12:10] <mdke> the other guy couldn't come this evening i'm afraid
[12:11] <Kamion> that seems perfectly reasonable
[12:11] <Kamion> who's the other guy?
[12:11] <mako> mdke: i think that's great :)
[12:11] <mdke> mako, ok cool
[12:11] <mako> yeah, who's the other guy? :)
[12:11] <hno73> I've been working with two of the competition winner on the site CSS and it looks like it's shaping up
[12:11] <mdke> he is sebastiano
[12:11] <mako> ah, ok
[12:11] <mako> mestre, yes?
[12:11] <mdke> yes
[12:11] <Kamion> hno73: kubuntu.org is already looking like a nice improvement, certainly
[12:11] <mako> great
[12:11] <hno73> I'm not sure how much work it is to make a Plone skin though
[12:11] <mdz> hno73: is there an ETA when the new ubuntu.com will go live?
[12:12] <mdke> mako, he speaks english right?
[12:12] <mdke> i think he speaks pretty well
[12:12] <hno73> mdz: The plan is to take it live at Hoary release
[12:12] <mdke> so we could do it
[12:12] <mdz> hno73: ok, thanks for the update
[12:12] <mako> mdke: yes
[12:13] <mako> mdke: we've emailed in the past
[12:13] <elmo> hno73: wah
[12:13] <elmo> hno73: _AT_ ?
[12:13] <Kamion> hno73: sometime a bit before would be nice ;)
[12:13] <mako> :)
[12:13] <hno73> Kamion: right :)
[12:13] <mdke> whoops
[12:14] <mako> lets try to coordinate making all the most invasive changes precisely with the time that slashdot links to us
[12:14] <elmo> mako: let's not
[12:14] <mako> oh wait.. there goes that thinko problem again :)
[12:14] <mako> ;)
[12:15] <Kamion> mako: you're assuming /. will link to the hoary release
[12:15] <mako> cool
[12:15] <mako> Kamion: it'll happen ;)
[12:15] <mdz> ready to move on?
[12:15] <mako> yes
[12:15] <mako> so yeah
[12:15] <Kamion> mako: and not to, say, "$OTHER_DISTRO thinks eating pies is quite important actually"
[12:15] <mako> mdke: ao...
[12:15] <mako> so..
[12:16] <mako> i want to make sure we can learn as much from the italian situation
[12:16] <mako> and do as much as we can to prevent this from happening with other teams
[12:16] <mdke> hmm
[12:16] <mako> the italian team is perhaps only unique in that it was one of our first teams
[12:16] <mdke> the problem is semantic i think
[12:16] <mako> and has been able to mature more.. good and bad
[12:16] <mdke> "leader" = all wrong
[12:16] <mdz> Kamion,elmo: but you know how our beloved sabdfl enjoys last-minute surprises ;-)
[12:17] <mdke> jdub said to me the other day: the leader is the slave to the group: this needs to be underlined. Otherwise people go for power/fame
[12:17] <Kamion> mdke: I do prefer "contact"
[12:17] <mako> mdke: well, lets take your experience.. both in terms of your new rules and your leadership stuff and see what we can extract into guidelines, etc for the rest of the loco projects
[12:17] <elmo> mdz: yeah, you remember my hair?  all grey now.  I know.
[12:17] <Kamion> different emphasis
[12:17] <ogra> Kamion, spoc `
[12:17] <ogra> ?
[12:17] <mako> i'm happy to leave it at that.. i dn't think the CC needs to do anything more
[12:17] <mdke> mako, well if no other groups have had the problem...
[12:17] <mako> mdke: given enough time.. they will :)
[12:17] <thom> elmo: that's just you getting old
[12:18] <mako> mdke: i want to to AVOID them having the problem
[12:18] <mako> or give them a clear path when they get there
[12:18] <elmo> thom: you're the one with 25 years IT work experience  :p
[12:18] <mako> alright
[12:18] <mako> we can finish up now...
[12:18] <mako> IRC ops/moderators
[12:18] <avdyk> guys, thanks for your time
[12:18] <Kamion> smurfix: what would it take to expunge the word "leader" and replace it with something else throughout? :)
[12:18] <mako> mdz: from you?
[12:18] <jani> mako PM about my key/snailmail etc when you got time
[12:18] <Kamion> who are the current ops on #ubuntu?
[12:19] <mdz> mako: yes
[12:19] <mako> Kamion: i'd be in support of that
[12:19] <mdz> mako: people are frequently approaching me and others on #ubuntu-devel about moderation issues on #ubuntu
[12:19] <smurfix> Kamion: s/leader/contact/ ?
[12:19] <mdke> Kamion, on the wiki? easy game surely
[12:19] <mako> mdz: it's being done poorly?
[12:19] <mako> first i've heard
[12:19] <smurfix> coordinator?
[12:19] <mdz> mako: no, just an apparent lack of ops
[12:19] <mako> ahh, ok
[12:19] <ogra> smurfix, proposing spoc
[12:19] <mdz> mako: someone coming on and flooding, etc., and there being no one to deal with it
[12:19] <Kamion> chanserv says seb128, bob2, fabbione, lamont, thom, Keybuk, fooishbar, jdub, mdz
[12:19] <mdke> smurfix, representative is my suggestion
[12:19] <DarthFrog> I was the one who brought the issue to a head with mdz.
[12:19] <ogra> smurfix, Single Point Of Contact
[12:20] <mdz> yeah, see, those are all Ubuntu developers
[12:20] <mdz> who are busy with other things
[12:20] <Kamion> ogra: no more acronyms please, especially not for stuff targetted at non-native speakers
[12:20] <mdz> that duty should be expanded to include some good community volunteers
[12:20] <ogra> okay
[12:20] <mako> right.. we need people who are respected, responsible, responsive, and on the irc channell the fricking time :)
[12:20] <ogra> bob2
[12:20] <DarthFrog> Guilty, Yer Honour. :-)
[12:20] <mdke> and not devs
[12:20] <ogra> i would say
[12:20] <Kamion> ogra: he's already on that list
[12:21] <ogra> ah, sorry
[12:21] <mako> can we get bob2 in here
[12:21] <mako> are there are suggestions on folks to do this?
[12:21] <Kamion> ogra: are you on #ubuntu regularly?
[12:21] <mdz> I'm not on #ubuntu enough to judge
[12:21] <mdz> DarthFrog has volunteered
[12:21] <ogra> Kamion, not recently
[12:21] <Kamion> ok
[12:21] <mako> mdz: that's my problem
[12:21] <ogra> Kamion, but from time to time
[12:22] <mako> i'm on enough to notice bob2 is on a lot :)
[12:22] <ogra> yep
[12:22] <mdke> yes
[12:22] <mako> can we delegate this bob2?
[12:22] <mdke> clone him
[12:22] <smurfix> mdke: "representative" is a bit long for my taste. I think I'll start with de-emphasizing the "leading" part of the job
[12:22] <mdz> I guess we can delegate this to bob2
[12:22] <mdke> smurfix, sure cool
[12:23] <mdz> mako: alternatively
[12:23] <Kamion> also people who know a reasonable amount about how IRC works
[12:23] <mako> Kamion: yes
[12:23] <mako> mdz: ....
[12:23] <mdz> mako: we could send out an announcement of a future CC meeting and invite people from #ubuntu to come and discuss
[12:23] <mdz> Kamion: right
[12:23] <mdz> I am both on #ubuntu relatively rarely, and know jack about IRC
[12:23] <mako> mdz: yeah. that's basically my position
[12:24] <crimsun> I'm in ubuntu fairly regularly
[12:24] <mako> crimsun: sure
[12:24] <DarthFrog> As am I.
[12:24] <mdke> smurfix, see enrico's wikipage for a nice description
[12:24] <Kamion> I'm on #ubuntu rarely, though university time-wasting means I know a reasonable amount about IRC
[12:24] <Kamion> although all that knowledge is dated
[12:24] <mdz> Kamion: you have enough on your plate I think ;-)
[12:24] <mako> alright...
[12:25] <Kamion> well yes :) but I'll try to hang out on #ubuntu a bit and see who's who
[12:25] <fabbione> i am on #ubuntu, but i just idle there...
[12:25] <Kamion> so that I have something intelligent to contribute next meeting
[12:25] <fabbione> i got a few trolls... but that's because people were telling me
[12:25] <smurfix> mdke: Heh
[12:25] <ogra> daniels is more often there
[12:26] <jbailey> I idle there, but my nick highlights on 'glibc' and 'cdbs' draw my attention occasionally. =)
[12:26] <mako> so, mdz's proposal is to invite people next time
[12:26] <crimsun> mako: I agree with that proposal
[12:26] <mdke> smurfix, "i do the dirty work while others do the fun stuff" ;)
[12:26] <mdz> I sort of expected that there would be a critical mass here anyway
[12:26] <mako> how about this.. the existing CC puts together a list of nominations and we do some sort of consensus with the folks who show up?
[12:27] <ogra> woah, there are 400 ppl in currently
[12:27] <mdz> I didn't anticipate the need to explicitly invite people, or I would have done it for this meeting
[12:27] <mako> ogra: yeah...
[12:27] <mdz> ogra: consistently over 400 now
[12:27] <ogra> unbelivable
[12:27] <mako> alright.. how about this
[12:27] <mako> we all make an effort to watch the channel a bit
[12:27] <mako> talk to the regulars, and make a list of nominations of operators
[12:28] <mako> and then do some sort of consensus thing at the next meeting
[12:28] <mako> and of course, ask people if they want to do it
[12:28] <mako> does that sound sane?
[12:28] <mdz> works for me, except for the "do more work" bit
[12:28] <mako> it might not.. i don't know how this is done in irc channels elsewhere :)
[12:28] <ogra> mako, sounds good, but collides a bit with the release, everybody is quite busy atm....
[12:28] <mako> mdz: dude, irc is FUN
[12:29] <mako> well, that's the last last item
[12:29] <mdz> mako: clearly you don't have enough work to do
[12:29] <mdz> ;-)
[12:29] <ogra> heh
[12:29] <mako> mdz: HAH
[12:29] <ajmitch_> MOTU meetup time? :)
[12:29] <mdz> any other business?
[12:29] <dholbach> mako: please have a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUTodo - loads of thrilling opportunities :-)
[12:29] <mako> umm.. lets decide on the next date
[12:29] <Kamion> mdz: let's assign mako more bugs
[12:29] <ogra> ajmitch_, give them time to end the meeting
[12:30] <crimsun> mdz: just one: many people have expressed interest in having XFce 4.2.1 in universe (which will require a sync from os-works) in time for Hoary
[12:30] <mako> Kamion: thanks
[12:30] <mdz> crimsun: is there something for the community council to discuss or decide in that regard?
[12:30] <ogra> crimsun, mdz will attend the motu meeting...
[12:30] <mako> Kamion: KAZAKH LANGUGE SUPPORT TOTALLY FUCKED!!!
[12:31] <crimsun> ogra: ah, ok.
[12:31] <crimsun> mdz: nope, retracted.
[12:31] <Kamion> is it cuz I is Kazakhstani?
[12:31] <Kamion> ANYWAY
[12:31] <mako> so yes
[12:31] <mako> do we want to move the date
[12:31] <ogra> stop the shouting guys :)
[12:31] <mako> it's the day before RC right now
[12:32] <mako> at 4:00 UTC
[12:32] <mako> *yikes*
[12:32] <fabbione> yay
[12:32] <mako> according to the rotating calendar
[12:32] <mdke> lol
[12:32] <ogra> 4:00 ?????
[12:32] <mdke> dholbach, you're really marketing that page ;)
[12:32] <mdz> what a nice convenient time for me
[12:32] <mako> ogra: yes :)
[12:32] <fabbione> ogra: it will be 6 am here
[12:32] <Kamion> mako: day before release I think actually
[12:32] <ogra> argh
[12:32] <Kamion> mako: next week is tech board
[12:32] <dholbach> mdke: to make sure, I know when the meeting is ;-)
[12:32] <mako> right. ok
[12:32] <mdke> heh
[12:32] <mdz> 2000, 2 days before RC
[12:32] <fabbione> ogra: next weekend we go in daylightsavingwhatever
[12:33] <mako> so, should we go with this
[12:33] <mako> we can move it to thursday
[12:33] <mdz> mako: it's the day before *hoary*
[12:33] <mdz> mako: not RC
[12:33] <mako> oh yes, damn
[12:33] <mako> well...
[12:33] <Kamion> I think I would definitely appreciate not having a meeting the night before hoary
[12:33] <mdz> can we just cancel it?
[12:33] <ogra> fabbione, yes, and i guess i'll just stay up a little longer ;)
[12:33] <mako> yes
[12:33] <mdz> or push it to the next week
[12:33] <mako> mdz: lets postpone it a week
[12:33] <mako> alright then
[12:33] <fabbione> or let's skip it for once
[12:33] <mdz> double u pTB and CC on the same day to catch up
[12:34] <fabbione> mako: we need to start time-rotation on the TB too
[12:34] <mako> OK, April 13 4:00 UTC (!)
[12:34] <Kamion> TB meetings don't have quite so much of the community involvement thing yet
[12:34] <mako> any other business?
[12:34] <Kamion> it's more important for them to be in sync with developers' work hours
[12:35] <fabbione> Kamion: we still miss people each time
[12:35] <fabbione> Kamion: like jdub?
[12:35] <Kamion> true, jdub often can't make it
[12:35] <mako> going once for othe business....
[12:35] <Kamion> righto, we're done here I think
[12:35] <fabbione> we need a fair rotation for everybody really
[12:35] <mako> going twice for other business....
[12:35] <mako> this CC meeting is over :)
[12:35] <mdz> jdub didn't make it when it was at 1600 UTC either
[12:35] <mdz> mako: cheers
[12:35] <mako> mdz: so jdub is a bum? :)
[12:35] <mdke> :)
[12:36] <mdke> thanks all
[12:36] <fabbione> mdz: isn't in the middle of the night for them?
[12:36] <Kamion> 1600 UTC is a pretty obnoxious time in .au
[12:36] <fabbione> mdz: i never see daniels either around
[12:36] <fabbione> Kamion: so it is for me....
[12:36] <mdz> Kamion: TB is currently 2000 UTC
[12:36] <Kamion> mdz: *nod*
[12:36] <mdz> which is still not ideal for .au
[12:36] <fabbione> Kamion: my wife is really threatening me to remove my pro-creation tools if i keep skipping dinner with her each tuesday
[12:37] <Kamion> fabbione: I'm on 13+ hours today, I have no sympathy :P
[12:37] <mdke> hmm
[12:37] <zul> haha..
[12:37] <mdke> ultimate sacrifice required
[12:37] <hno73> I should have posted this link while we were on the topic, but: http://www.theopencd.net/ubu/index1.html
[12:37] <hno73> there it is now anyway
[12:37] <zul> fabbione: you dont need them anyways
[12:37] <ogra> .....going for MOTUMeeting.....
[12:37] <mdke> hno73, that's really nice
[12:37] <fabbione> zul: shhh! there is always a (very little) hope!
[12:38] <Kamion> hno73: sweet
[12:38] <zul> fabbione: none...you are married now.
[12:38] <mdke> lol
[12:38] <Kamion> hno73: (although where did this "intex" thing come from? should be "Intel")
[12:38] <ogra> .....going for MOTUMeeting.....
[12:38] <zul> fabbione: for once
[12:38] <trulux> woka
[12:38] <zul> hey trulux
[12:38] <ogra> hi trulux
[12:39] <trulux> hey zul, ogra :)
[12:39] <ogra> lets keep it short today if we can
[12:39] <hno73> Yeah, that typo has been there since the original template suggestion was submitted to the competition:)
[12:39] <ogra> there are five items on the agenda
[12:39] <Kamion> hno73: :)
[12:40] <dholbach> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting
[12:40] <ogra> first is dholbach asked for keeping universe open a bit longer then release
[12:40] <crimsun> # the username and ID used by pbuilder, inside chroot. Needs fakeroot, really
[12:40] <crimsun> BUILDUSERID=1234
[12:40] <crimsun> #BUILDUSERNAME=pbuilder
[12:40] <crimsun> # BINDMOUNTS is a space separated list of things to mount
[12:40] <crimsun> # inside the chroot.
[12:40] <crimsun> BINDMOUNTS=""
[12:40] <ogra> crimsun, ??
[12:40] <tseng> uh
[12:40] <crimsun> # Set the debootstrap variant to 'buildd' type.
[12:40] <crimsun> DEBOOTSTRAPOPTS[0] ='--variant=buildd'
[12:40] <crimsun> err, sorry!
[12:40] <crimsun> mouse went nuts
[12:40] <dholbach> :-)
[12:40] <koke> :D
[12:41] <ogra> so what about that topic, mdz around ?
[12:41] <mdz> yes
[12:41] <mdz> what is the question, though?
[12:41] <dholbach> yeah... if you have a look at MOTUTodo and UniverseUnmetDeps and the yet to build UniverseDoesNotBuild pages, you'll get an idea
[12:41] <ogra> can we hear your opinion about that ?
[12:41] <mdz> xfce is in universe, update it at will
[12:42] <ogra> mdz, keeping universe open after release
[12:42] <mdz> oh, that
[12:42] <ogra> i'm not happy with it being stated officially
[12:42] <tseng> trulux: dude
[12:42] <dholbach> we're really a rocking team, but we won't make it, there will be loads of uninstallable/unbuildable packages
[12:42] <ogra> but iirc we had it in warty too
[12:42] <tseng> trulux: this is hoary release build up, Hardened is breezy material
[12:42] <mdz> elmo: is it even possible to lock down main+restricted but not universe+multiverse?
[12:43] <dholbach> elmo said (just yesterday):  "oh tehcnically it's possible, just a small amount of work - it's just messing with something after it's been released - even universe - just gives me all the wrong kinds of chills" - hope i don't cite him in the wrong context
[12:44] <fabbione> i don't think we should leave universe open
[12:44] <lamont> fabbione: ++
[12:44] <fabbione> if there is any vendor outthere building DVD's with universe.. they will get crazy
[12:44] <ogra> me neither but leave the opportunity to build a selected et of packages...
[12:44] <fabbione> or whatever other reason
[12:44] <fabbione> a release is a release.. full stop
[12:44] <ogra> set even
[12:44] <elmo> mdz: yes
[12:44] <fabbione> ogra: they will be in breezy.. tough luck
[12:45] <elmo> mdz: at a source-level, in terms of the restrictions
[12:45] <Kamion> I have to agree with fabbione here; we don't include universe on DVDs ourselves, but I suggested myself recently that third parties might want to do that
[12:45] <trulux> tseng: right, Hoary+1 is the target
[12:45] <tseng> trulux: so, please dont cut in on hoary time
[12:45] <mdz> what are the risks that we expose ourselves to if we leave it open?
[12:45] <ogra> fabbione, i think it depends on the packages...
[12:45] <tseng> trulux: release crunch, understand?
[12:45] <Kamion> and I don't think it's any shame on the MOTU team if there are a few uninstallables left and stuff
[12:45] <trulux> tseng: sure
[12:45] <dholbach> if you see those lists of packages and the users complaining about non-installable packages, ...
[12:45] <tseng> trulux: thanks.
[12:45] <lamont> mdz: insanity and a slippery slope, for starters?
[12:45] <elmo> dholbach: btw, there's something else you need to realize
[12:45] <ogra> dholbach, we need prioritys
[12:46] <dholbach> ogra: but making the priority list will at least a day
[12:46] <fabbione> ogra: yes i understand that. but the archive freezes.. that's it.. it can be problematic and annoying in some situations
[12:46] <elmo> dholbach: sabdfl has set me a hoary release goal of importing the world into universe/multiverse.  and I don't think he cares what state it's in, and I'm not going to get it done in time for you guys to fix it all up
[12:46] <Kamion> elmo: "the world"?
[12:46] <elmo> kamion: apt-get.org
[12:46] <mdz> Kamion: THE WORLD
[12:46] <Kamion> yeesh
[12:46] <ogra> argh
[12:46] <fabbione> oh crap
[12:46] <tseng> yar :(
[12:46] <koke> O_o
[12:46] <elmo> and anything else with a Packages files on it
[12:46] <ogra> thats news to the MOTU
[12:46] <elmo> err, Sources
[12:47] <fabbione> elmo: please do NOT import debian.fabbione.net or any of the mirrors...
[12:47] <fabbione> elmo: that would be bad for ubuntu
[12:47] <Kamion> er, quality control? hello?
[12:47] <tseng> ogra: well, we saw it in the preview announcement, and the marillat merging
[12:47] <fabbione> and i own that archive.. so i know what it's there
[12:47] <azeem> fabbione: you will be imported. Resistance is futile.
[12:47] <tseng> but yeah
[12:47] <mdz> Kamion: quality control and multiverse do not intersect ;-)
[12:47] <thom> fabbione: coward :-)
[12:47] <elmo> ogra: yes, I probably should have warned you when I was told to do it; my bad
[12:47] <fabbione> azeem: eheh
[12:47] <Kamion> mdz: I would have thought that e.g. the Java guys might have something to say about that
[12:47] <ogra> elmo, rather sabdfls
[12:48] <tseng> elmo: is the stuff even being reviewed?
[12:48] <fabbione> thom: you really do NOT want apache+ipv6 going around ubuntu, do you?
[12:48] <mdz> Kamion: java stuff that we care about is going to progress into universe and main
[12:48] <ogra> elmo, he already forgot to tell us about wine
[12:48] <elmo> tseng: I'm revieiw it for license and there's an undecided issue of what to do about packages which overlap - they might need reviewed, I'm not sure
[12:48] <tseng> :/
[12:48] <jani> elmo, anything else besides apt-get.org ?
[12:48] <Kamion> mdz: in any case much of apt-get.org would be universe, not multiverse
[12:48] <elmo> but for the rest, basically no
[12:48] <ogra> elmo, this may be a high amount
[12:48] <mdz> ogra: the idea of leaving universe open after release makes me more uncomfortable than the prospect of uninstallable packages in universe
[12:48] <tseng> ive seen some pretty bad stuff.. case in point their tomboy package
[12:49] <dholbach> ok, so the decision is final: until release we have to get as much sorted as possible, full stop, right?
[12:49] <mdz> Kamion: that depends on how we define them
[12:49] <ogra> mdz, me too
[12:49] <lamont> mdz: 110% agreement here
[12:49] <elmo> jani: do you know of any other big meta-repositories?
[12:49] <fabbione> dholbach: that would be the best solution
[12:49] <jani> elmo, no just individuals of course
[12:49] <fabbione> dholbach, ogra: considering how young is the MOTU team
[12:49] <elmo> jani: well, I'm happy to import other stuff on request
[12:49] <ogra> mdz, dunno if i wasnt clear about my opinion, but dholbach has the headdaces
[12:49] <dholbach> it gives me huge headache
[12:49] <fabbione> you have done an excellent job for hoary
[12:49] <jani> elmo, cool
[12:49] <elmo> and if anything gets on sabdfl's radar, I'll no doubt have to import that too
[12:49] <mdz> fabbione++
[12:49] <crimsun> dholbach: I think hoary/universe being frozen will be okay, since we'll just pick up with breezy/universe
[12:50] <fabbione> crimsun: exactly
[12:50] <mdz> you guys are doing a fantastic job, but I don't think there are enough of you to get every  package in perfect shape for the release
[12:50] <dholbach> thanks for the flowers
[12:50] <ogra> but will see backports rising again :(
[12:50] <ajmitch_> so it'll be a crazy 2 weeks getting universe into shape as best we can
[12:50] <fabbione> also because to fix hoary, you will pile up work on breezy
[12:50] <Kamion> ogra: inevitable
[12:50] <fabbione> ogra: you will never avoid that
[12:50] <mdz> ogra: there were backports for Warty less than a month after release
[12:50] <crimsun> ogra: true, but we should be pushing those people to use breezy :)
[12:50] <mdz> with firefox 1.0PR1 or whatever
[12:50] <dholbach> ok... so someone should get a priority list whipped up
[12:51] <ogra> mdz, they already exist for hoary :-P
[12:51] <ajmitch_> mdz: there are already hoary backports.. don't ask how
[12:51] <mdz> dholbach: a good approach might be to use Debian popularity-contest data
[12:51] <elmo> giggle
[12:51] <mdz> dholbach: focus on the most commonly used packages
[12:51] <elmo> hoary backports
[12:51] <dholbach> mdz: good thinking
[12:51] <elmo> giggle
[12:51] <dholbach> i'll take care of it tomorrow
[12:51] <ogra> elmo, stop giggling, iz makes me cry
[12:51] <dholbach> lamont: how long will the universe test build action take?
[12:51] <mdz> dholbach: Charles Majola should be helping with that; I asked him to start working through "apt-cache -i unmet"
[12:52] <ogra> elmo, and thom as well i guess (ff 1.0.1 is already there)
[12:52] <lamont> dholbach: heat death of the universe... No.  about 3-4 days, iir5c
[12:52] <dholbach> mdz: we have that at   wiki/UniverseUnmetDeps
[12:52] <ajmitch_> tseng: he's already WikiMaster
[12:52] <lamont> then again, we've imported more crap since the last time...
[12:52] <dholbach> lamont: ok thanks
[12:52] <ogra> ok, do we have a consensus here now ?
[12:53] <dholbach> seems so
[12:53] <ogra> universe freezes with the release
[12:53] <ogra> right ?
[12:53] <tseng> ogra: good news and bad news, i guess :)
[12:53] <fabbione> ogra: yeps...
[12:53] <jani> elmo, for instance XFCE4.2 http://www.os-works.com/view/debian/
[12:53] <ogra> ok
[12:53] <ogra> next
[12:53] <ogra> which MOTUNewPackages shall be focused on?
[12:54] <tritium> If our packages don't get approved before the universe freeze, do we miss the MOTU Hoary fast-track opportunity?
[12:54] <jani> elmo, NVU http://maya.ba.issia.cnr.it/frankie/debian/
[12:54] <dholbach> gnomebaker should get in RSN
[12:54] <ogra> dholbach, two little fixes, i reviewed it today
[12:54] <tseng> tritium: mako or mdz would have to answer that one
[12:54] <fabbione> jani: you don't want packages from frakie.. do you? ;)
[12:54] <ogra> hey guys
[12:54] <tseng> im thinking hula might be less than stable
[12:55] <ogra> tseng, tagged as preview
[12:55] <jani> fabbione, I don't know him, I just want NVU users asked for it
[12:55] <tseng> just from what ive heard around the block
[12:55] <mdz> tritium: we'll have to decide what to do about the fast-track process through the community council
[12:55] <mdz> maybe it will continue, maybe not
[12:55] <dholbach> but "having" hula is cool, even 0.77-extra-experimental-0ubuntu1
[12:55] <ogra> guys please cncentrate on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUNewPackages
[12:55] <fabbione> jani: nah j/k.. he is a good guy
[12:55] <ogra> concentrate
[12:55] <mako> mdz, tritium: yes, but my understanding is that until hoary releases, the fast track process is in place
[12:55] <tritium> mdz, okay
[12:55] <lamont> dholbach: Total 2180 package(s) in state Installed.
[12:55] <lamont> Total 5262 package(s) in state Needs-Build.
[12:55] <lamont> that's i386
[12:56] <dholbach> lamont: ok... thank you :-)
[12:56] <tseng> ogra: none of those are terribly exciting to me
[12:56] <tritium> mako, okay, thanks
[12:56] <mdz> mako: yep
[12:56] <ogra> but thy are the topic tseng
[12:56] <tseng> yes..
[12:56] <ogra> whats not there wont get reviewed anymore
[12:56] <tseng> but none stands out as popular
[12:56] <mdz> ogra: I reviewed gvr already and asked elmo to import it
[12:57] <ogra> but its pointless anyway, since apt-get.org gets imported
[12:57] <tseng> hula is a hot item, but its "preview"
[12:57] <mdz> ogra: you can take it off the review list
[12:57] <tseng> ill get it
[12:57] <ogra> as i said, our whole QA process we worked out got pointless with the apt-get.org decision whoich makes me merely sad
[12:58] <ogra> (and a bit angry)
[12:58] <mdz> my impression was that that stuff would go into multiverse
[12:58] <fabbione> ogra: you should make a point there imho
[12:58] <tseng> mdz: er sorry, what does gvr expand to? i dont see such a think on motunewpackages
[12:58] <mdz> tseng: it's in UniverseCandidates
[12:58] <tseng> ah
[12:58] <jani> but those would not override existing packs would it?
[12:58] <ogra> fabbione, i will, but sabdfl rules...
[12:58] <Kamion> ogra: I think you should talk to sabdfl and try to clear things up
[12:59] <crimsun> well, let's go ahead and place precedence on ubuntu's universe packages ahead of what apt-get.org might have
[12:59] <fabbione> ogra: and perhaps get a more reasonable defition of "importing WORLD"
[12:59] <fabbione> ogra, crimsun: sabdfl is not a monster with 4 heads and 8 legs :-)))))
[12:59] <fabbione> just talk with him
[12:59] <ogra> crimsun, there are even unmaintained packages i once put there 3 years ago i dont want to see in ubuntu
[01:00] <crimsun> fabbione: sure thing
[01:00] <ogra> fabbione, i will, but he will have his reasons
[01:00] <fabbione> ogra: so will you...
[01:00] <ogra> yup
[01:00] <fabbione> that's why you talk and agree on what's the best
[01:00] <ogra> ok, jani
[01:01] <ogra>  Possibility of adding XFCE4.2.1 to universe? (JaniMonoses)
[01:01] <ogra> i think we talked that over before...
[01:01] <jani> well mdz seems fine with it, crimsun did not object
[01:01] <jani> it's all about if it can be done in time
[01:01] <jani> now if elmo is after foreign repos this is an
[01:01] <ogra> yeah, lets pull it in as soon as possible
[01:01] <jani> excellent chance
[01:02] <jani> no need for ubuntu1 patches at all, the packages are in good shape
[01:02] <ogra> yeah
[01:02] <jani> great PR value too :)
[01:02] <ogra> yup
[01:02] <crimsun> except some of benny's packages will supercede what's in universe
[01:02] <crimsun> his rox-filer is epoched higher, for instance
[01:02] <jani> hoary hedgehod with latest release of the 2^W 3 most important DEs
[01:02] <ogra> crimsun, is that bad ?
[01:03] <crimsun> ogra: I don't believe so, but I haven't reviewed it
[01:03] <jani> we only get xfce4 core not xfld stuff I's say
[01:03] <jani> rox-filer is not xfce4 package per se
[01:03] <Kamion> elmo: do you have discretion to do things like avoiding repositories that clash with stuff already in universe?
[01:03] <crimsun> jani: right, that's a xfld dependency
[01:03] <jani> we don't need those
[01:04] <jani> if we have XFCE4.2 the xfld guys might even switch to hoary liveCD from knoppix ;)
[01:04] <jani> good for both projects
[01:04] <ogra> crimsun, could you sort that in the desktop team and make sure that we get only things that are needed ?
[01:05] <ogra> s/desktop team/xfce team  ??
[01:05] <crimsun> ogra: yep, jani and I (and others) will go over that
[01:05] <ogra> great
[01:05] <jani> great
[01:05] <ogra> ok, next is  Universe packages without desktop file (UniversePackageWithoutDesktopFile). Which icon, if any, to use for desktop items.
[01:05] <ogra> koke, tell us :)
[01:05] <koke> then s/later/now/ :D
[01:06] <koke> well,, this is not much motu-specific
[01:06] <doko> jani: it would be a good point, if the guys wanting xfce4.2 could be involved in universe maintainance
[01:06] <koke> but since ubuntu is shipping new desktop files for universe packages
[01:06] <tritium> So is that it for NewPackages?
[01:06] <jani> doko, I don't know them it was wishful thinking on my part :)
[01:06] <ogra> tritium, yup
[01:06] <koke> and modified ones for some main ones
[01:06] <koke> how could the translations be handled??
[01:06] <jani> but if/when we get xfce4.2 in i could mail them
[01:06] <ogra> tritium, for now until we talked to sabdfl
[01:07] <tritium> ogra, are you going to remove them from the list to review?
[01:07] <ogra> tritium, nope, not before i talked to sabdfl
[01:07] <tritium> okay
[01:09] <ogra> ok, koke i dont think we can ship translations for every .desktop file but i think we should have as much as possible of them, since Amaranth seems stuck with the menu editor...
[01:09] <ogra> the question was what kind of default icon do w want
[01:09] <ogra> we even
[01:09] <dholbach> i think it was metallikop's question
[01:09] <koke> ogra: the point is not having all .desktop translated to all languages, but how to do it
[01:09] <dholbach> and jbailey wanted to provide an icon, am i right?
[01:09] <ogra> his wife...
[01:10] <dholbach> koke: it's all about control.in and some autoconf-fu, i can look it up in some packages i came across
[01:10] <ogra> ...nd he said probably, i have heard no agreement yet
[01:10] <jbailey> dholbach: Not I. =)  I asked Angie if she was interested, she said yes, but hasn't done anything about being interested despite me nudging her.
[01:10] <dholbach> jbailey: ok... right
[01:11] <ogra> koke, probably rather a task for the doc team ? not sure about that
[01:11] <ogra> so what do we do, do we go with the white paper sheet ?
[01:12] <tseng> jimmac has some blank icons for mime types
[01:12] <ogra> tseng, can we make sure they dont conflict with any of the mimetypes ?
[01:12] <tseng> im looking it up
[01:13] <tseng> heh
[01:13] <tseng> and then the "foot"
[01:14] <koke> /usr/share/icons/gnome/48x48/filesystems/gnome-fs-executable.png ??
[01:14] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/git//stock_script-48.png
[01:14] <tseng> speaking of gears
[01:14] <koke> or maybe /usr/share/icons/gnome/48x48/filesystems/gnome-mime-application.png ??
[01:15] <ogra> koke, the latter doesnt exist here
[01:15] <tseng> nor here
[01:15] <dholbach> nor in the archive
[01:15] <tseng> hey
[01:15] <koke> /usr/share/icons/gnome/48x48/mimetypes/gnome-mime-application.png
[01:15] <koke> :D
[01:15] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/git//window-menu-48.png
[01:16] <ogra> koke nah
[01:16] <ogra> hmm, i would like not to misuse some other descriptive icon...
[01:17] <tseng> ogra: thats not the icon here
[01:17] <tseng> for window-menu
[01:17] <tseng> mine has no ?
[01:18] <tseng> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/wipicons/git//stock_unknown-48.png is for the weather applet
[01:18] <ogra> tseng, but it describes windows somehow...
[01:18] <tseng> a .desktop describes a window, no?
[01:18] <ogra> yeah, thats looking good...
[01:18] <tseng> in a spacial sense
[01:19] <ogra> tseng, yes, but not an application...
[01:19] <tseng> the purple ? has other sizes as well
[01:19] <ogra> i would vote for gnome-fs-executable.png and stock_unknown-48.png
[01:20] <tseng> i dont like gnome-fs-exec
[01:20] <tseng> its too generic from a normal user I think
[01:20] <dholbach> locate gnome-fs-executable.png | xargs eog    <----- so cool
[01:20] <dholbach> "collection mode" :-)
[01:21] <tseng> that one is also used for mime types iirc
[01:21] <ogra> so what do you guys think ?
[01:21] <tseng> as was brought up earlier
[01:21] <tseng> unknown executables
[01:21] <dholbach> ok... will apps have to ship these?
[01:21] <tseng> if the desktop referes to a stock icon
[01:21] <ogra> dholbach, nope
[01:21] <tseng> it will already exist ideally
[01:21] <tseng> anyway, go to /usr/bin in nautilus
[01:22] <tseng> gnome-fs-executable.png is all over
[01:22] <dholbach> make sure they exist and don't add   /usr/share/pixmaps   - i've been told off once :-)
[01:22] <ogra> jani koke other opinions ?
[01:22] <ogra> crimsun `
[01:22] <ogra> ?
[01:22] <koke> when I see stock_unknown my links to "help" concept
[01:22] <ogra> dholbach, yup :)
[01:23] <ogra> koke, right...
[01:23] <ogra> no other opinions ?
[01:23] <koke> maybe some kind of empty window...
[01:24] <ogra> koke, example ?
[01:25] <ogra> jani, no opinion ?
[01:25] <ogra> crimsun, no opinion ?
[01:25] <ogra> ajmitch, ?
[01:25] <dholbach> i'm looking over $icon_dir
[01:26] <dholbach> the ubuntu logo
[01:26] <dholbach> that's generic enough :-)
[01:26] <ogra> dholbach, imagine a menu _full_ of ubuntu logos :-P
[01:27] <dholbach> well if it's the thing you're dreading, have  "Icon="  and you're set :-)
[01:27] <koke> hey, I got it :)
[01:27] <koke> just open an xterm
[01:28] <koke> the icon in the title bar sould be chosen, for consistency :)
[01:28] <ogra> +
[01:28] <koke> maybe a bit faded to grey
[01:28] <koke> I'd have to see the result
[01:28] <jani> crappy connection
[01:28] <dholbach> hmhmhmhmm
[01:29] <dholbach> sounds like a NEW icon, right?
[01:29] <mdz> I'm swamped and haven't been able to keep up; do you guys need anything more from me?
[01:29] <koke> dholbach: yep, really the same, but colorless
[01:29] <ogra> mdz, yup next topic...
[01:29] <dholbach> mdz: wiki/MorgueCandidates
[01:30] <crimsun> ogra: sorry, was nabbed
[01:30] <crimsun> (scrolling up)
[01:30] <ogra> lets sort the icon suff in #ubuntu-motu during the next days if more people are around, there seems not to be much interest now..
[01:31] <dholbach> yes
[01:31] <dholbach> probably the best
[01:31] <crimsun> ok
[01:31] <dholbach> ok, now we need as much input as possible for   wiki/MorgueCandidates
[01:31] <ogra> ...and we schouldnt do that in a rush (we'll have to bear with it the next six months)
[01:31] <tseng> you just said we shouldnt use an icon that meant "window"
[01:31] <tseng> ...meh
[01:31] <dholbach> does everybody feel comfortable with going through them in each motumeeting?
[01:32] <ogra> tseng, lest sort it later :)
[01:32] <dholbach> now the lists is a bit full, due to a primary weeding-out
[01:32] <dholbach> i think it'll settle down soon
[01:33] <ogra> dholbach, i thought the question was how to get them flushed out of the archive...
[01:34] <dholbach> ogra: mdz told us last time: "you're in charge of universe, you decide - tell elmo"
[01:34] <ogra> a package thats there already had a decision i think
[01:34] <dholbach> mdz: correct me, if i quoted wrong
[01:34] <jani> hopefully will not come back as part of import world ;)
[01:35] <ogra> jani, you'll never know
[01:35] <jani> we should have a list of packages passed to elmo
[01:35] <dholbach> i had really hoped this was going to be a bit more lively
[01:35] <ogra> jani, i think its the list already...
[01:35] <ogra> a package that shows up there should already have had its decision...
[01:36] <ogra> dholbach, this meeting ?
[01:36] <dholbach> this topic
[01:36] <jani> a list which contains the morgue candidates plus packages others work on
[01:36] <ogra> hm
[01:36] <crimsun> dholbach: I see nothing wrong with dropping all those listed on MorgueCandidates. Is this discussion about something else?
[01:36] <dholbach> ok... if there are no objections whatsoever, elmo will receive this list tomorrow and act upon it
[01:36] <ogra> yup
[01:36] <dholbach> i'll double check the rdepends before
[01:37] <ogra> ok
[01:37] <dholbach> alright.. then this is it
[01:37] <dholbach> thanks everyone
[01:37] <dholbach> thanks ogra
[01:37] <ogra> yeah...i'll write up the minutes
[01:37] <ogra> thanks all, meeting closed
[01:37] <tseng> thanks ogra
[01:37] <dholbach> i'll cleanj the agendas
[01:38] <ogra> thanks all for attending
[01:38] <tritium> thanks
[01:39] <jani> by all
[01:41] <koke> could we keep talking about translations stuff @ #ubuntu-motu??
[01:41] <tseng> sure
[02:50] <dholbach> good night everyone
[08:03] <amu> moin
[08:03] <Riddell> ah yes, we had a meeting
[08:04] <mdz> whatever daemon evolution uses for notifications had died
[08:05] <Riddell> haggai here?
[08:05] <amu> i'll phone him ...
[08:05] <mdz> pinged him on jabber
[08:06] <haggai> sorry
[08:06] <haggai> was talking to tom
[08:06] <mdz> do we have a quorum, then?
[08:06] <Riddell> think so, do we have an agenda?
[08:07] <mdz> I sketched something up on IRC the other day
[08:07] <haggai> 21:34 <mdz> - any remaining 3.4 packaging
[08:07] <haggai> 21:34 <mdz> - what should move into main
[08:07] <haggai> 21:34 <mdz> - Array milestone releases
[08:07] <mdz> that's the one, was just pasting it
[08:08] <mdz> what is the status of the KDE 3.4 packaging?  do we have everything we care about now?
[08:08] <Riddell> remainig 3.4 packages are kdeaccessibility which has compiled but isn't in archive yet, I think we need to poke lamont about that
[08:08] <lamont> Riddell: he?
[08:08] <haggai> kdebindings (in progress)
[08:08] <lamont> eh?
[08:08] <Riddell> kdeaddons needs done since it's in main
[08:08] <Riddell> lamont: or is it elmo that needs poked?
[08:08] <amu> i18n should comes also asap
[08:08] <ttf> kde-i18n should be done by tomorrow
[08:09] <Riddell> who's doing i18n?
[08:09] <mdz> does it build new binary packages?
[08:09] <lamont> Riddell: s/lamont/elmo/
[08:09] <mdz> (kdeaccessibility)
[08:09] <ttf> Riddell: me
[08:09] <Riddell> lamont: ok
[08:09] <Riddell> mdz: I think so
[08:09] <Riddell> ttf: cool
[08:09] <lamont> Riddell: Building/Failed/Dep-wait --> lamont.  Uploaded --> elmo
[08:10] <Riddell> kdevelop needs done, that one is tricky
[08:10] <mdz> if elmo isn't around, I can do those if it's a blocking issue
[08:10] <haggai> we also have a small list on KubuntuTODO - not KDE 3.4 but maybe some packages to add
[08:11] <haggai> I mean KubuntuKDEStatus
[08:11] <mdz> have any of you corresponded with elmo/pitti regarding moving packages to main recently?
[08:11] <haggai> just amu I think
[08:11] <mdz> are there still changes pending?
[08:12] <mdz> looks like all the kmail stuff is still pending
[08:12] <amu> spoke with pitti today, result is we just move gnupg-agent to main
[08:12] <mdz> then you need to change the deps
[08:12] <mdz> the package you uploaded tries to pull in about 10 others
[08:12] <amu> yep
[08:12] <mdz> ok
[08:12] <mdz> there are a couple of FTBFS bugs
[08:13] <haggai> caused by < 3.4
[08:13] <mdz> 7885, 7914
[08:13] <haggai> oops my fault thanks mdz
[08:14] <Riddell> haggai: what's the status of openoffice1-kde ?
[08:14] <haggai> Riddell: I thought it was in now
[08:14] <mdz> something is trying to pull kdesdk into main
[08:14] <fabbione> kdewebdev
[08:14] <fabbione> Build-Dep on libcvsservice-dev provided by kdesdk
[08:14] <mdz> Riddell: there is nothing in queue/new
[08:15] <haggai> openoffice.org-kde | 1.1.3-8ubuntu1 | http://localhost hoary/universe Packages
[08:15] <haggai> so that needs pulling in
[08:15] <mdz> kdeaccessibility_3.4.0-0pre1ubuntu1 was rejected
[08:15] <amu> skd just build, guess need 2-3h more in order to upload it ..
[08:15] <amu> sdk even
[08:15] <mdz> Rejected: file 'kttsd-contrib-plugins_3.4.0-0pre1ubuntu1_i386.deb' has unknown component 'contrib'.
[08:16] <mdz> lamont: where to REJECT messages for binary uploads go?
[08:16] <mdz> s/to/do/
[08:17] <mdz> fabbione: hmm, but libcvsservice-dev doesn't show up in anastacia
[08:17] <mdz> ah, because it's already in main
[08:18] <haggai> hmm, I just realised everything got uploaded with version 4:3.4.0-1 instead of 4:3.4.0ubuntu1
[08:18] <fabbione> mdz: yes, but it's an old version. the 3.4 one is in universe
[08:18] <Riddell> haggai: such as what?
[08:18] <fabbione> mdz: and pulling kdesdk in main means bringing libdb4.0
[08:18] <haggai> Riddell: kdebase for example
[08:19] <elmo> fixed that reject
[08:19] <Riddell> haggai: Version: 4:3.4.0-0ubuntu7
[08:19] <haggai> Riddell: oh I mean 4:3.4.0-0ubuntu1
[08:19] <mdz> fabbione: ah, now I remember
[08:19] <lamont> mdz: to the buildd, and thence to me
[08:19] <mdz> lamont: did you receive the ones for kdeaccessibility?
[08:19] <fabbione> mdz: i know because it's the only package that i am waiting to complete main on sparc :)
[08:19] <haggai> Riddell: oh wierd must've been the wrong chroot
[08:19] <lamont> mdz: that is, if the binary is rejected.  for source uploads, they go to the uploader
[08:19] <mdz> Riddell: for kdesdk, we need to migrate it to libdb4.2
[08:19] <mdz> or something else already in main
[08:20] <mdz> we don't want another libdb if we can avoid it
[08:20] <amu> fabbione: builded it with libdb4.2
[08:20] <fabbione> amu: rocking
[08:20] <mdz> oh, you already uploaded it?
[08:20] <Riddell> mdz: ok, I'll try that
[08:20] <mdz> Riddell: amu seems to indicate that he did it already
[08:20] <amu> nope, said before, packages just build and i have first deb's ... need 2-3h more for a review
[08:20] <mdz> ok
[08:21] <Riddell> cool, I'll leave it to amu
[08:21] <mdz> amu: so that also solves #7914, yes?
[08:21] <amu> mdz: finally ;)
[08:21] <mdz> who is doing kdeaddons?
[08:21] <lamont> mdz: on investigation, yes.  IIRC, they looked like the typical failure that one gets when a new source version is uploaded before the binaries from the prior version finish building.
[08:21] <mdz> amu: you also?
[08:22] <lamont> elmo: does kdeaccessibility just need a re-upload?
[08:22] <mdz> haggai: add openoffice.org-kde to the kubuntu desktop seed?
[08:22] <mdz> lamont: <elmo> fixed that reject
[08:22] <elmo> lamont: no I fixed it
[08:22] <haggai> mdz: yup
[08:22] <elmo> lamont: you need to notify me about those kind of rejects
[08:22] <Riddell> I can do kdeaddons if nobody else is doing it
[08:22] <lamont> elmo: thanks
[08:22] <amu> mdz: not now, guess haggai started it
[08:22] <elmo> katie will override stuff from main, she can't/won't override stuff from !main
[08:23] <elmo> without human intervention
[08:23] <lamont> elmo: which was it?  contrib component?
[08:23] <elmo> lamont; yeah
[08:23] <mdz> haggai: done
[08:24] <mdz> ok
[08:24] <haggai> mdz: thanks
[08:24] <haggai> amu: started what?
[08:24] <mdz> apart from the things that we already discussed, are there any other blockers for the release candidate?
[08:24] <amu> kdeaccessibility ?
[08:24] <haggai> knetworkconf into seeds
[08:24] <mdz> I was asking about kdeaddons
[08:25] <mdz> haggai: desktop?
[08:25] <Riddell> 19:22 < Riddell> I can do kdeaddons if nobody else is doing it
[08:25] <mdz> Riddell: yes, and amu said haggai started it
[08:25] <mdz> whoever is doing it, please take bug #7914
[08:25] <haggai> I didn't I didn't :)
[08:25] <haggai> amu: my lock is only on kdebindings
[08:25] <mdz> Riddell: all yours, it seems
[08:25] <mdz> haggai: confirm knetworkconf for desktop?
[08:25] <Riddell> oh goody
[08:26] <haggai> mdz: needs to be installed by default on live & install cd.  Is that desktop or desktop + something?
[08:26] <mdz> that's just desktop
[08:26] <mdz> live CD is desktop + live
[08:26] <haggai> k thanks
[08:26] <mdz> is knetworkconf is good working condition?
[08:27] <amu> err i'm working on the addon's :) thought we speak about kdeaccessibility
[08:27] <mdz> does it need any adjustments for sudo vs. su or anything like that?
[08:27] <mdz> (added to desktop)
[08:27] <haggai> mdz: not for sudo but there is a patch pending to make it like [k] ubuntu
[08:27] <Riddell> amu: then take back No 7914 :)
[08:27] <haggai> mdz: like as in sucessfully detect and use debian config logic
[08:28] <amu> knetworkconf, must be checkedout from kde-cvs, than we've also Kubuntu support in it, mailed with upstream last times
[08:28] <mdz> ok
[08:28] <mdz> it looks like it doesn't have any new dependencies (I hope)
[08:28] <amu> nope
[08:28] <mdz> elmo: can you do an archive/seed resync tonight to push this stuff through?  if not, I can do it
[08:29] <elmo> mdz: no; I'm about to leave for London
[08:29] <mdz> elmo: ok to teri these bits?
[08:29] <elmo> mdz: I can do first thing tomorrow, or as you say, you can
[08:29] <elmo> mdz: what you asking me for?  it's your distro :)
[08:29] <haggai> kmilo needs to move from desktop to ship
[08:29] <mdz> elmo: you know what you are doing with katie and I do not
[08:29] <Riddell> haggai: why?
[08:30] <amu> haggai: just make a list what must be done with the seed's, i casn handle it
[08:30] <amu> s/casn/can
[08:30] <haggai> Riddell: we already talked about that earlier - CMOS writing and all that
[08:30] <Riddell> haggai: there's more plugins for kmilo than just thinkpad
[08:30] <haggai> Riddell: oh, that makes it more complicated then
[08:31] <Riddell> haggai: and it does no harm having it there, means the user gets to choose if they explicitly want to ues it
[08:31] <amu> fabbione: means we've also comming soon a (k)ubuntu4sparc's?
[08:31] <haggai> Riddell: but looks bad not working out of the box
[08:32] <haggai> Riddell: and the given instructions don't actually work (I tried following them to the letter)
[08:32] <fabbione> amu: kubuntu has been built on sparc. i am only mirring these 2/3 packages that are moving from universe to main
[08:33] <fabbione> s/mirring/missing
[08:33] <amu> fabbione: rocks, both 32/64 bit's
[08:33] <fabbione> amu: sparc userland is only 32 bit
[08:34] <fabbione> because it is faster than 64
[08:34] <mdz> ok, moving on
[08:34] <mdz> I think we should aim for a coordinated kubuntu/ubuntu RC release
[08:34] <mdz> any issues or concerns with that?
[08:34] <Riddell> mdz: sounds good, what's the date?
[08:34] <mdz> one week from today
[08:34] <mdz> March 30
[08:35] <haggai> sounds doable
[08:35] <Riddell> I agree
[08:35] <mdz> the most crucial part of this is that we have more hands on deck for testing
[08:35] <mdz> for the kubuntu preview release, Riddell and I had to do the testing basically between the two of us
[08:35] <Riddell> amu: nods?
[08:35] <mdz> I am going to have my hands full with Ubuntu this time around
[08:35] <haggai> it happened at the time everyone else was sleeping, and without warning
[08:36] <haggai> I'm happy to be involved in testing this time around
[08:36] <amu> Riddell: :) nod,nodding :)
[08:36] <haggai> in fact I've been testing daily already - that's how my LVM setup got trashed...
[08:36] <mdz> there were more folks around when we started the test cycle, but then sleep intervened
[08:37] <mdz> we'll start earlier this time
[08:37] <amu> haggai: guess upgrade is useless since this is kubuntu's first release
[08:37] <mdz> in fact we'll start the day before
[08:37] <mdz> do you guys have enough hardware variety among you to test amd64/i386/powerpc?
[08:37] <haggai> amu: upgrade is nice but secondary importance
[08:37] <haggai> I only have i386
[08:37] <Riddell> I can do x86 and probably powerpc
[08:37] <amu> mdz: i've all of them
[08:38] <mdz> ok
[08:38] <mdz> if you feel like you're short, try to stir up some volunteers on #kubuntu, kubuntu-users, etc.
[08:38] <mdz> it's critical that every image be tested (live and install, all architectures)
[08:38] <mdz> if you want to do a DVD release, that needs testing as well
[08:38] <haggai> we're getting fairly good testing already.  There's a new kubuntu forum too that's had some activity
[08:38] <Riddell> mdz: is ubuntu doing a dvd release?
[08:38] <amu> mdz: i took this task
[08:38] <mdz> I'm not sure that we'll do a DVD for the release candidate of Ubuntu
[08:39] <mdz> haggai: I mean for the test cycle we do before the release
[08:39] <mdz> haggai: ensuring that the final images are tested and good
[08:39] <haggai> mdz: ok fair enough
[08:39] <mdz> ongoing testing of the dailies is great, but it doesn't substitute for testing the finals
[08:39] <haggai> right
[08:39] <mdz> Riddell: we'll decide that sometime soon, but I think probably not
[08:39] <mdz> we have bandwidth limitations already
[08:40] <haggai> even a bittorent source?
[08:40] <Riddell> do we know what the problem was with X on the live CD?  will that magically get fixed?
[08:40] <mdz> the DVD images are ~2.5G; it's a big load no matter how we distribute it
[08:40] <mdz> and it'll dilute the CD torrents
[08:40] <amu> hope i can reach lolo, for a kubuntu mirror
[08:41] <mdz> do you guys have the necessary equipment for DVD writing and testing?
[08:41] <mdz> on all architectures?
[08:41] <amu> mdz: yep
[08:41] <mdz> (writing for at least one, read/live/install on all)
[08:41] <mdz> one of the big headaches with DVD is that it takes forever to download
[08:41] <mdz> this makes the test cycle much longer
[08:41] <mdz> an extra 8G or so to download
[08:42] <haggai> I have a DVD writer, need to go get some blanks
[08:42] <mdz> we'll discuss the DVD question for Ubuntu, are you guys happy to follow Ubuntu's lead as to whether we do DVD for the RC or not?
[08:43] <haggai> yup
[08:43] <mdz> has anyone tested a Kubuntu bi-weekly DVD yet?
[08:43] <amu> mdz: could we delay that question, my internetconnection is still buggy, my isp primised to fix it this week
[08:44] <mdz> amu: if your connection is problematic, we can always change our mind
[08:44] <amu> than i've 4,6MB
[08:44] <mdz> anything else we need to cover?
[08:44] <haggai> well I have a reasonable connection I can use to test the dvd on i386
[08:44] <mdz> I have another meeting in 15m
[08:44] <amu> mdz: ok
[08:45] <haggai> any baz / source control issues?
[08:45] <Riddell> we need elmo to set one up
[08:45] <haggai> Riddell: you have people lining up to do doc / website stuff right?
[08:45] <Riddell> haggai: yep
[08:45] <haggai> is there any infrastructure for doing remote baz repos yet?
[08:46] <mdz> not properly
[08:46] <amu> Riddell: webpages are now in baz?
[08:46] <mdz> I believe the plan is to use a zope sftp server
[08:46] <mdz> I have no idea of the timeline; elmo would probably be the person to ask
[08:46] <haggai> any short term soln we could use for now?
[08:46] <Riddell> amu: nope, but we should find something to put them in
[08:46] <mdz> I think we could probably use chinstrap in the short term, at least for the three of you
[08:47] <Riddell> what is chinstrap?
[08:47] <mdz> amu already has an account
[08:47] <mdz> Riddell: one of our servers
[08:47] <haggai> there are more than just us though as far as doc / web stuff goes
[08:47] <haggai> we could use novo for just us
[08:47] <mdz> haggai: we're not going to be able to get this together very soon, I expect
[08:47] <mdz> if you use baz, you can always merge third-party branches
[08:48] <mdz> if you have other people who need access
[08:48] <mdz> we won't have a facility where we can grant authenticated access to arbitrary people very soon
[08:48] <mdz> we definitely won't be giving out shell accounts to everyone
[08:48] <Riddell> someone who knows how could set up cvs or svn somewhere
[08:48] <mdz> we'll have either webdav or zope-sftp eventually
[08:48] <mdz> cvs and svn have the same issues; might as well use baz
[08:49] <mdz> (cvs has worse issues, even)
[08:50] <mdz> I'll chat with sabdfl about the revision control situation the next time we talk
[08:50] <mdz> anything else?
[08:50] <mdz> I need to run
[08:50] <Riddell> I think you can run
[08:50] <mdz> thanks, guys
[08:50] <haggai> cheers
[08:50] <amu> cheers
[08:50] <Riddell> haggai, amu, ttf: going to Sydney?
[08:53] <ttf> Riddell: nope
[08:55] <amu> Riddell: yep
[08:59] <haggai> Riddell: no


[05:55] <stgraber> we turned off cron yesterday evening, if someone wants a respin, just go trigger it from the tracker, as usual...
[05:56] <stgraber> and yes, infinity is already on a plane and I'm going to be too in a couple of hours, so don't expect much to happen till Monday morning when we're all back together in DC
[09:56] <elfy> If someone in release team does happen to wander by and has time could we please get some upgrade product on the Final tracker - thanks :)
[10:14] <knome> elfy, sorry to let you down not being a release team member, but those should be up now
[10:15] <elfy> knome: how did you do that?
[10:16] <knome> went to administration, tab builds, select all "upgrade" items, and added a build with version number that matches the other "final" items, selected the "Utopic Final" milestone and hit "add these builds to the tracker" :)
[10:17] <elfy> fabled awesome documentation again then ;)
[10:17] <knome> i had to think how to do that for some minutes as well...
[10:17] <elfy> mmm
[10:17] <knome> where's the documentation? :P
[10:17] <elfy> actually what's happened is the already existing Daily Upgrades are showing against Final
[10:18] <knome> yes, but it's the same build, so isn't that correct?
[10:19] <knome> i mean, why would the previous reports invalidate because we socially now consider the ISO that was a daily the "final" ISO?
[10:21] <knome> if i'm wrong and the "final" ISO is something else, then i apologize and will fix it when you point me to the right direction ;)
[10:21] <knome> or really, ":)"
[20:36] <Logan_> is Jenkins not working properly with the proposed migrations?
[20:36] <Logan_> lots of "Test in progress" that are either done or 404: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html


[07:55] <kraut> moin
[08:09] <avatar_> @schedule amsterdam
[08:09] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
[08:58] <juliux> morning mvo
[09:16] <mvo> hey juliux!
[09:17] <mvo> juliux: I think I hadn't had the chance to congrat you yet for the very nice ubucon event
[09:17] <juliux> mvo, thanks
[09:17] <juliux> mvo, can you send me your slides? we want upload them on the website
[09:17] <mvo> juliux: sure
[09:18] <juliux> mvo, thanks
[14:24] <pferrari> @schedule Zurich
[14:24] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
[15:23] <zul> @schedule montreal
[15:23] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 23 Oct 11:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 10:00: Community Development Team
[15:30] <soren> @schedule Copenhagen
[15:30] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
[15:30] <soren> Oh, server team meeting! That sounds very interesting!
[15:30] <abogani> @schedule Rome
[15:30] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
[15:36] <penguim> @schedule Brazil
[15:40] <penguim> @schedule Bahia
[15:40] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Bahia: 23 Oct 12:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 12:00: Community Development Team
[15:43] <nealmcb> @schedule denver
[15:43] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 23 Oct 09:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 10:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 10:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 08:00: Community Development Team
[15:47] <nealmcb> upcoming agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[15:52] <zul> hey
[15:57] <mathiaz> Hi everyone !
[15:58] <soren> Hey, Mathiaz!
[15:58] <sommer> hey
[15:58] <penguim> hi all
[15:58] <ScottK> Hello
[15:58]  * jdstrand waves
[15:58] <lionel> hi
[16:00] <zul> hello
[16:01] <mathiaz> ok. So let's get this started.
[16:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:01] <mathiaz> Short agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[16:02] <mathiaz> Last meeting notes are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071009
[16:03] <soren> There weren't any?
[16:03] <soren> Action points, that is.
[16:03] <mathiaz> soren: there were two small ones for me.
[16:03] <mathiaz> soren: I did them IIRC
[16:04] <soren> mathiaz: Oh, you're right.
[16:04] <soren> Something about e-mail fridge-devel to sort something out?
[16:04] <mathiaz> soren: when do you think you'll start the mta debate on debian-devel ?
[16:04] <soren> mathiaz: Tomorrow. I meant to do it today, but I got tied up.
[16:06] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Lessons learned from gutsy about Xen
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lessons learned from gutsy about Xen
[16:06] <mathiaz> zul: ^^
[16:06] <zul> on the phone just a sec
[16:07] <mathiaz> ok.. So while waiting, anyone upgrade their server to gutsy ?
[16:07] <zul> ok im back
[16:07] <zul> sorry
[16:08] <zul> ok basically xen in gutsy was a mess compared to feisty and Im looking for help this time around
[16:08] <mathiaz> zul: what's the current state of xen in gutsy ?
[16:08] <zul> mathiaz: people were having problems loading their domUs and other problems
[16:09] <ScottK> mathiaz: I upgraded one of mail mail servers around beta timeframe with no issues.  I plan on doing production servers this weekend.
[16:09] <zul> i emailed a list of ideas for hardy to rick and we can go from their at uds
[16:09] <mathiaz> zul: is this because there wasn't enough testing done during gutsy development phase ?
[16:09] <mathiaz> zul: ok. Is there a spec registered about this ?
[16:09] <zul> mathiaz: true thats part of it
[16:10] <zul> mathiaz: not yet i have to talk to rick more probably
[16:10] <zul> there is a session a uds about this
[16:10] <mathiaz> zul: will you be at uds ?
[16:10] <zul> no I have sent my ideas to rick already ill be listening in though
[16:11] <nealmcb> zul: what sorts of suggestions do you have?
[16:11] <mathiaz> zul: ok. If there is a session scheduled, there is probably a blueprint associated with it.
[16:11] <mathiaz> zul: it may be worth creating the wiki page and add your ideas there.
[16:11] <zul> nealmcb: better tools for creating guests, not just me working on it
[16:12] <mathiaz> zul: explain what was wrong with gutsy and what should be done about it.
[16:12] <mathiaz> zul: are you the only one doing xen work/developpement in Ubuntu ?
[16:12] <zul> mathiaz: basically it was a switch in where were we getting the sources from and the lack of people testing ti
[16:12] <zul> mathiaz: yes i am
[16:13] <zul> so another set of eyes would be good, if it helps Ill send an email to the ubuntu-server ml
[16:14] <avatar_> zul: you'r not in #ubuntu-xen ?
[16:14] <mathiaz> zul: I think that's a good idea.
[16:14] <zul> avatar_: not regularily
[16:15] <zul> ok so I will send an email when I get home tonight
[16:15] <mathiaz> avatar_: is there a mailing list for ubuntu-xen ?
[16:15] <zul> no there isnt
[16:15] <avatar_> mathiaz: afaik just an irc channel
[16:16] <mathiaz> zul: ok. It seems that there isn't any spec for xen.
[16:17] <mathiaz> zul: could create a wiki page about XenSupportInHardy ?
[16:17] <zul> mathiaz: true, I can do that no problem
[16:17] <nealmcb> zul: what sorts of assistance would be most helpful for the xen effort - what skill sets?
[16:17] <zul> nealmcb: packaging testing documentation
[16:18] <zul> especially for amd64 and windows guests
[16:18] <mathiaz> zul: that would help a lot if you'd listed what is needed in the wiki page.
[16:19] <nealmcb> thanks for doing so much by yourself - sounds like we should be able to find folks with those skills....
[16:19] <zul> I could start an XenTeam wiki page as well
[16:19] <avatar_> i would like help testing, but amd64 or windows guests requires me to buy new hardware...
[16:19] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will create a wiki page XenSupportInHardy to describe what is needed for xen
[16:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will create a wiki page XenSupportInHardy to describe what is needed for xen
[16:19] <zul> avatar_: ditto :)
[16:19] <mathiaz> zul: A team may be a good idea in mid-term.
[16:20] <mathiaz> zul: let's start by figuring out what needs to be done for hardy
[16:20] <zul> mathiaz: sure Ill get started on it tonight
[16:21] <zul> mathiaz: i have a rough idea in my head I just need to write it down
[16:21] <mathiaz> zul: once people will be interested in it, we could consider the creation of a team
[16:21] <penguim> +1
[16:21] <mathiaz> zul: excellent !
[16:22] <mathiaz> zul: meanwhile, I think you can use the ubuntu-server mailing list to discuss it.
[16:22] <nealmcb> what was the change in xen sources - from where to where?
[16:22] <zul> nealmcb: dom0 sources from redhat to novell
[16:22] <nealmcb> ty
[16:23] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap
[16:23] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
[16:24] <mathiaz> As you may know, the hardy archive is now opened.
[16:24] <mathiaz> Which means that we're in merge phase.
[16:25] <soren> \o/ Merge-o-rama!
[16:25] <mathiaz> While doing this, it would be great to forward deltas to Debian via their BTS
[16:25] <mathiaz> using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Debian/Usertagging
[16:25] <ScottK> As long as they are applicable.
[16:27] <mathiaz> sommer: how is the server guide review going ?
[16:27] <sommer> mathiaz: it's coming along... still working through the official docs
[16:28] <sommer> I also updated, some of the wiki pages I've contributed to, for Gutsy
[16:28] <sommer> at this point basically the ones listed on the Server Team RoadMap page
[16:28] <mathiaz> I've also noticed you've been working on a macro for the wiki to indicate which release is relevant for wiki pages.
[16:28] <mathiaz> sommer: Are they tagged in the wiki ?
[16:29] <mathiaz> sommer: May we could create a link to the list of page relevant to the ServerTeam category.
[16:30] <sommer> mathiaz: sounds like a good idea... they currently aren't tagged except for CategoryDocumentation
[16:30] <mathiaz> sommer: the idea being that we can point new contributors to the page when they show interest in server documentation.
[16:31] <sommer> should we post to the doc ml for additional help?
[16:31] <mathiaz> sommer: hum... I don't know.
[16:32] <ScottK> sommer: One documentation point you might look into while you are reviewing is that I got the fix for Bug #150067 uploaded late in the Gutsy process, but the resulting config file change isn't documented.  It'd be useful if there was an appropriate place to put that.
[16:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150067 in courier "Courier 0.56 has broken SSL support" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150067
[16:32] <mathiaz> ScottK: is there a way to tag bugs fixed that need documentation update ?
[16:33]  * ScottK has no idea.
[16:33] <ScottK> I'm only thinking about that one because I uploaded the fix and dealt with a bug filed today where the only problem was they didn't know about the setting.
[16:34] <sommer> there is a list of bugs pertaining to the official docs
[16:34] <mathiaz> ScottK: yes. It's a general issue actually.
[16:34] <mathiaz> the mysql bug database has such a workflow.
[16:34] <mathiaz> you can see when fixes are committed, then documented.
[16:35] <mathiaz> It may be interesting to be able to mark bugs that need a documentation review (with an appropriate tag for example).
[16:35] <nealmcb> mathiaz: and then remove the tag when it is documented?
[16:36] <mathiaz> nealmcb: yes.
[16:36] <nealmcb> sounds useful - a link to a mysql example would be handy
[16:36] <mathiaz> Anyone has another example of such a situation ?
[16:37] <soren> I know I have one, but I forget what it is :)
[16:38] <sommer> the evms issue everyone seems to have?
[16:38] <sommer> or is that one documented somewhere?  I just recall several questions about it.
[16:38] <mathiaz> sommer: I think that was put in the release notes.
[16:39] <sommer> ah
[16:39] <mathiaz> sommer: update-manager should take care of it.
[16:39] <mathiaz> sommer: but not everyone uses update-manager to upgrade to gutsy.
[16:40] <sommer> so if a bug requires documentation is the process to update the official docs, or a wiki page?
[16:40] <mathiaz> sommer: well - it depends where it needs to be fixed.
[16:40] <sommer> mathiaz: okay
[16:41] <mathiaz> sommer: if it's in the official documentation, I think that a new bug should be filed against the documentation package
[16:41] <mathiaz> sommer: otherwise, the wiki page should be updated.
[16:41] <mathiaz> This is usually what I do whith the AppArmor package and User guide.
[16:41] <sommer> cool sounds good to me
[16:41] <mathiaz> The problem is that most developper don't know which wiki page on help.u.c needs to be updated.
[16:42] <nealmcb> sending an example of the mysql workflow to the doc team might help - they may have similar ideas
[16:42] <mathiaz> I think this should be raised with the ubuntu-doc team.
[16:42] <mathiaz> I'll send an email about this.
[16:42] <nealmcb> cool
[16:43] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will send an email to ubuntu-doc about bugs and documentation update.
[16:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will send an email to ubuntu-doc about bugs and documentation update.
[16:43] <mathiaz> ScottK: I'll give your courrier bug as an example.
[16:43] <mathiaz> If someone else has another example, let me know.
[16:43] <mathiaz> nealmcb: what's the state with the factoids ?
[16:43] <ScottK> mathiaz: Thanks.
[16:45] <nealmcb> mathiaz: sorry - distracte - I need to get back to them!!
[16:46] <mathiaz> nealmcb: did you send an email to ubuntu-server with your proposal ?
[16:46] <nealmcb> not yet.  I've got some fleshed out on the page, but want to finish that first
[16:47] <mathiaz> nealmcb: ok.
[16:48] <mathiaz> As you may know, the Ubuntu Developer Summit will start next week
[16:48] <mathiaz> with a BarCamp this coming Weekend.
[16:48] <soren> *cough* FOSSCamp *cough*
[16:48] <mathiaz> A list of blueprints will be discussing for Hardy can be found at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server
[16:49] <mathiaz> soren: hum - it was renamed ?
[16:49] <soren> Er.. no?
[16:49] <soren> :)
[16:49] <nealmcb> that's the name - Fosscamp
[16:49] <soren> http://www.fosscamp.org/
[16:49] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.fosscamp.org/
[16:50] <mathiaz> soren: hum... ok.
[16:50] <soren> No biggie.
[16:50] <soren> :)
[16:50] <mathiaz> So if you wanna get involve in the discussion, the blueprints and their associated wiki page are the place to look at.
[16:51] <mathiaz> Is there anything else ?
[16:52] <nealmcb> will the schedule at http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-boston-2007/2007-10-29/index.html  point to the blueprints?
[16:52] <mathiaz> nealmcb: it should
[16:52] <Keybuk> nealmcb: it already does
[16:52] <nealmcb> In the past I remember it being hard to find out about some topics
[16:53] <nealmcb> Keybuk: hmmm - the titles don't seem to be links - ahh - some are
[16:53] <Keybuk> they're links if they have a little note icon next to them
[16:53] <Keybuk> if they're not, then the spec doesn't exist in LP yet
[16:54] <nealmcb> I'd just encourage folks to get something in both lp and the wiki - it helps a lot with context :-)
[16:54] <Keybuk> I've been doing just that
[16:54] <nealmcb> :-)
[16:55] <mathiaz> Ok. It's time to wrap up.
[16:55] <mathiaz> Next meeting in two weeks, same time, same place ?
[16:55] <soren> Er.. We might be busy at that point?
[16:56] <soren> AllHands, you know..
[16:56] <nealmcb> well, not everyone knows :-)
[16:56] <soren> Sorry, no :) It was for mathiaz :)
[16:57] <soren> Let's shoot for two week, same time, same place.
[16:57] <soren> We'll work it out.
[16:57] <mathiaz> Alright - then.
[16:57] <mathiaz> Thanks all and happy merging !
[16:57] <nealmcb> but I met Lamont in person at the Colorado gutsy party, and heard about it...  a canonical meeting...
[16:57]  * nealmcb waves to lamont
[16:57] <sommer> thanks all
[16:57] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[16:57] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:57.
[16:58] <nealmcb> mathiaz: thanks!
[16:58] <nealmcb> back to class, now, folks....  and thanks to soren for the ubuntu open week session yesterday in  #ubuntu-classroom
[16:59] <nealmcb> :-)
[16:59] <soren> \o/
[16:59] <soren> ;)
[17:00] <BenC> Hello everyone
[17:01] <BenC> Unfortunately, most of the kernel team is either not present, or working hard on post-gutsy issues, or UDS planning
[17:01] <BenC> I'll open the floor for anything from the community
[17:02] <BenC> And if there is nothing, then I'll end the meeting :)
[17:03] <ogasawara> BenC: just curious if there is any specific area you want my to focus my triaging?
[17:03] <ogasawara> BenC: for now i'm just trying to cut down the number of New and Unassigned bugs for 2.6.20 and 2.6.22
[17:04] <BenC> ogasawara: Our main problem has been unanswered bugs, which gives people the impression we don't care (and we really do)
[17:04] <abogani> BenC: Are there plan for change security model to "Posix file capabilities" ?
[17:05] <BenC> abogani: not that I'm aware of...that's a decision for security/server teams
[17:05] <zul> BenC: fyi ive already started forward porting the xen tree again
[17:05] <BenC> in general the kernel team doesn't make policy decisions that affect userspace that broadly...we follow what the distro decides as a whole
[17:05] <BenC> zul: good luck :)
[17:05] <zul> BenC: yeah thanks..
[17:06] <zul> 2.6.24 right?
[17:07] <BenC> as of right now, that's the plan
[17:07] <BenC> wont be decided until next week at UDS
[17:07] <zul> im assuming 2.6.24 though
[17:08] <BenC> as of right now, .23 and (virtual).24 are the same thing :)
[17:08] <zul> true
[17:08] <zul> 2.6.23 would be easier for me
[17:09] <BenC> ogasawara: how are things coming along with the current bug lists?
[17:10] <BenC> ogasawara: also, now that gutsy is released, it may be best to not spend too much time on 2.6.20
[17:11] <ogasawara> BenC:  so obviously there are lots of "New" bugs that still need to be processed, but for the most part things are moving fairly smoothly
[17:11] <ogasawara> BenC: was curious if this might be a good forum to bring up specific bugs I think you guys should take a look at?
[17:12] <ogasawara> BenC: or should I just hit you guys up on #kernel
[17:12] <BenC> ogasawara: It would be a good forum, but considering most of us aren't here, I'm on a conf call while doing this little bit, it's just not a good day for it :)
[17:12]  * ogasawara nods :)
[17:12] <BenC> ogasawara: another good point would be to make good use of "Wont Fix" in released kernels
[17:13] <BenC> I think most of the bugs fall into this category right now
[17:13] <ogasawara> BenC: yah, I've already been marking a lot of these
[17:15] <BenC> ogasawara: did you want me to schedule a kernel-team session with you at UDS?
[17:15] <ogasawara> BenC: yah, was just about to ask you that
[17:15] <BenC> or will a OOB meeting at the pub after hours do? :)
[17:15] <ogasawara> BenC:  at the pub would be perfect
[17:16] <ogasawara> BenC: actually, bdmurray and I have been compiling a short list of questions for you that can totally be addressed over a beer or two
[17:16] <BenC> excellent, favorite kind of meetings
[17:17] <BenC> Anything else before I cut the meeting?
[17:17] <ogasawara> BenC: nope, I'm good.
[17:17] <zul> none here
[17:18] <BenC> Ok, thanks everyone
[17:18] <abogani> BenC: Thank you!
[20:07] <Keybuk> mdz, mjg59: No TB tonight?
[20:11] <mjg59> I thought we decided to skip it, given UDS?
[20:12] <Keybuk> did we
[20:12] <Keybuk> it's a good decision :p


[00:00] <wgrant> wallyworld_: Right, but you need to query the APs to find out the in-use stuff, and the APs include the permitted stuff
[00:00] <wgrant> So it can be simplified to just returning the APs
[00:01] <wallyworld_> sure, i was speaking logically as to what is missing
[00:42] <wgrant> wallyworld_: Do you think we can Won't Fix bug #1008538 now?
[00:42] <_mup_> Bug #1008538: Bug Supervisors are not notified when the project is not shared <bugs> <disclosure> <sharing> <Launchpad itself:In Progress by wallyworld> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008538 >
[00:43] <wallyworld_> perhaps. we were waiting for everything to be migrated across i think
[00:44] <wallyworld_> so can't we just leave it in open till then?
[00:44] <wgrant> I guess
[00:44] <wgrant> I just don't really think there's much we need to do in terms of it now
[00:44] <wgrant> Or in the future
[00:46] <wallyworld_> i think we were going to create structural subscriptions
[00:48] <wgrant> Mmmm, possibly.
[01:20] <cr3> when using launchpadlib, how can a bug_task.status == u'Triaged' and bug_task.date_triaged == None :(
[01:23] <wgrant> cr3: Possibly if it was created Triaged
[01:24] <cr3> wgrant: interesting, so I'll fallback to date_created when any of the status related dates is None. thanks!
[01:56] <StevenK> wgrant: https://oops.canonical.com/?oopsid=8dffb8ed96a390893ecaef560b7af41a
[01:58] <wgrant> StevenK: wallyworld's thing will fix that
[01:58] <wgrant> Though there is an underlying bug that should also ideally be fixed
[01:59] <wallyworld_> if the branch scanner ever completes :-(
[01:59] <wgrant> wallyworld_: You linked the bugs before the scan completed
[01:59] <wgrant> It's cursed
[01:59] <StevenK> wgrant: What's the underlying bug?
[01:59] <wallyworld_> linking bugs is ok
[01:59] <wallyworld_> creating mp is not
[01:59] <wgrant> wallyworld_: Evidently not :/
[01:59] <wallyworld_> i've linked bugs without problems for ever
[01:59] <wallyworld_> but creating mp is problematic
[02:00] <StevenK> Doing *anything* with a LP branch before its scanned leads to cursing.
[02:00] <StevenK> Even looking at it.
[02:00] <wallyworld_> hmmm. not for me till now
[02:00] <wallyworld_> i've tried the push -r-2 trick. what else can i try?
[02:00] <StevenK> Renaming the branch on LP and re-pushing
[02:00] <wallyworld_> besides that :-(
[02:01] <wgrant> Nothing
[02:01] <wallyworld_> balls
[02:01] <wgrant> Besides SQLing the BRs away without a timeoput
[02:01] <StevenK> Haha
[02:01] <wgrant> In general, don't touch a large branch before the initial scan completes
[02:02] <StevenK> Can we delete BranchRevision for being complete crap?
[02:05] <wgrant> [2012-09-03 02:01:54,379: INFO/PoolWorker-2] Job resulted in OOPS: OOPS-5de0a53e4be5589c2a0309cbe7f925b9
[02:05] <wgrant> anyway
[02:06] <StevenK> PoolWorker-2 really is cursed
[02:06] <StevenK> Bleh
[02:06] <StevenK> Can't add a team to +sharing, so can't change the owner of the branch
[02:07] <StevenK> Or maybe this thing has a BVP, which would be quite sad
[02:08] <wgrant> StevenK: Oh, sorry, meant to say: you can work around that one by just setting Private and Private Security to All.
[02:08] <wgrant> As well as Proprietary
[02:08] <wgrant> the first two will do nothing
[02:08] <wgrant> But it should prevent the crash
[02:08]  * wgrant tries
[02:08] <StevenK> Yeah, that worked out it
[02:08] <StevenK> around it, that is
[02:09] <StevenK> Hah
[02:09] <StevenK> +sharing for me states the branch is Private, when the branch itself states it is Proprietary.
[02:10] <wgrant> Have you refreshed?
[02:10] <wgrant> Where does +sharing state that it's private?
[02:10] <wgrant> I don't see that
[02:10] <wgrant> Oh
[02:10] <StevenK> +sharing/stevenk
[02:10] <wgrant> That is interesting
[02:10] <StevenK> Quite
[02:11] <wgrant> 'cause the APA is correct
[02:11] <StevenK> Maybe we have a bug in PersonPillarSharingView?
[02:11] <StevenK> However it's named.
[02:12] <wgrant> I assume so
[02:12] <wgrant> Or possibly in the sharing service, probably
[02:13] <StevenK>             # At the moment, all branches displayed on the sharing details
[02:13] <StevenK>             # page are private.
[02:13] <StevenK>             information_type = InformationType.USERDATA.title
[02:13] <StevenK> Face. Palm.
[02:13] <wgrant> heh
[02:14] <wgrant> Sounds like an easy fix
[02:14] <StevenK> Yeah, I'll look at it
[02:14] <wallyworld_> i think that stuff was written for the sharing details page way before information types
[02:16] <wgrant> Before they were implemented properly for branches, yes
[02:21]  * StevenK tries to work out where the tests for PillarPersonSharingView are hiding.
[02:40] <StevenK> wallyworld_: I don't think PillarPersonSharingView is tested. :-(
[02:41] <wallyworld_> StevenK: not sure, i didn't write it. i can look
[02:41] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Second set of eyes would be excellent
[02:42] <wallyworld_> StevenK: PillarSharingDetailsMixin
[02:42] <wallyworld_> test_pillar_sharing
[02:43] <wallyworld_> so TestProductSharingDetailsView etc extend the mixin
[02:45] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Ah ha! Thanks
[02:45] <wallyworld_> np
[02:45] <wallyworld_> the tests look like they could have some added
[03:00] <StevenK> Bah.
[03:01] <StevenK> I have it create a proprietary branch, and it dies creating an APA saying it already exists
[03:01] <wgrant> You shouldn't need to manually create APAs any more
[03:04] <StevenK> Heh, nice. Dropping the APA lines gives me +22, -23
[03:05]  * StevenK will push the branch up and propose after lunch
[03:06] <StevenK> Actually, no. Since my lunch has to cook, I'll put it on and then push the branch
[03:20] <StevenK> wallyworld_, wgrant: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/branches-are-more-than-private/+merge/122436
[03:22] <wallyworld_> StevenK: i'd add the test to the subclass
[03:22] <wallyworld_> if it's only applicable for products
[03:23] <wallyworld_> i'd also just call the test view_data_model_branch , remove the word proprietary
[03:24] <StevenK> wallyworld_: branches are already tested by test_view_data_model, I was trying to be clear.
[03:25] <wallyworld_> hmm. i'm not sure we need a separate test then. we dont' have a separate test for proprietary bugs
[03:26] <StevenK> wallyworld_: So, I can rename it to proprietary, create a bug as well and check that both of their information_types are golden?
[03:27] <wallyworld_> do we need to? so long as the data model tests check that the json info type matches that of the artifact, aren't we ok?
[03:27] <wallyworld_> ie is the existing test sufficient?
[03:27] <StevenK> wallyworld_: So the
[03:27] <StevenK> Sigh
[03:28] <wallyworld_> i guess i'm asking, why doa special test for one specific info type
[03:28] <StevenK> wallyworld_: So the problem was that the existing tests create a bug and branch as USERDATA and then assert that is what is in the JSON.
[03:28] <wallyworld_> maube should need to loop across all info types then
[03:28] <StevenK> wallyworld_: The UI was overriding all branches information_type to USERDATA -- so I'm creating a branch that is a type that isn't USERDATA and checking what's in the JSON.
[03:29] <StevenK> I could use PRIVATESECURITY just as well
[03:30] <wallyworld_> yeah, understood
[03:30] <wallyworld_> i guess i have a small issue with adding a new test just for one specific info type. we should have a general test that lops over all info types if we don't trust the test that's there
[03:31] <wallyworld_> or change the info type to != USERDATA
[03:31] <wallyworld_> as you suggest
[03:31] <wallyworld_> that may be easiest
[03:32] <wallyworld_> since it gives us a failing test before the code change, and a working test after the fix
[03:59] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Sorry, was noming. http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1182844/
[04:00] <wallyworld_> np, let me look
[04:01] <wallyworld_> StevenK: sure, but i think we don't even need a whole new test. just make the current data model test fail by changing the info type of the branch to PS or something other than UD, and the code fix makes everything ok again
[04:13] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Oh, HAH
[04:14] <StevenK> wallyworld_: I can't do it that way -- the branch is created as USERDATA and the JSON is populated on view creation so I can't transition it away, which would have been why I created a new test in the first place.
[04:15]  * StevenK sees if he can grab the branch before the view and transition there.
[04:16] <wallyworld_> can can change the makeArtifactGrantee method
[04:17] <StevenK> I can change it to create a PRIVATESECURITY branch, sure
[04:18] <wallyworld_> and that will make the test fail without the code fix
[04:18] <wallyworld_> so i think that's all you need
[04:23] <StevenK> wallyworld_: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1182879/
[04:25] <wallyworld_> StevenK: i think that's ok. minimal changes, but the tests still fail without the code fix being applied
[04:25] <StevenK> And they do, yes.
[04:25] <wallyworld_> cool. adding a new test in this case just didn't sit right weith me
[04:29] <wallyworld_> StevenK: see, i even got you some LOC credit
[04:30] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Mercy buckets
[04:31] <StevenK> wallyworld_: It's not like I needed more.
[04:31] <StevenK> % loc-contributions 'Steve Kowalik'
[04:31] <StevenK> -3236
[04:31] <wallyworld_> well give some of yours to me then
[04:31] <wallyworld_> :-P
[04:31] <StevenK> wallyworld_: I would if I could
[04:37] <StevenK> That's better.
[04:42] <wallyworld_> lol
[04:47] <wallyworld_> i'd love to revisit out bug triage policy based on these numbers
[04:49] <wgrant> http://webnumbr.com/launchpad-critical-bugs :)
[04:50] <wallyworld_> no, i meant i disagree with the triage policy
[04:51] <wgrant> I know, I was just showing you some even prettier numbers
[04:51]  * micahg stopped filing timeout bugs
[04:53] <StevenK> wgrant: That user destroyed thier MP
[04:53] <StevenK> Which is unfortunate, I wanted to grab sinzui's testcase off it
[04:54] <wgrant> StevenK: I can forward the email if you wish
[04:54] <StevenK> wgrant: From Curtis? Please do
[04:56] <wgrant> This is why we shouldn't allow anybody to ever delete anything :)
[04:56] <StevenK> No, we need to congratulate him -- he managed to delete a Launchpad branch
[04:57] <wgrant> You have a good point...
[05:10] <StevenK> He is nothing but persistant
[05:10] <StevenK> He's put another branch up which actually fixes the issue, but doesn't include a test.
[05:19] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Is PopulateProjectSharingPolicies done?
[05:20] <wgrant> Yes, it can die
[05:20] <StevenK> stub: O hai, https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/drop-unused-branch-function/+merge/122431 would love a review
[05:20] <wgrant> As of Friday all projects are created with either Public or Proprietary
[05:20] <StevenK> I'll kill it
[05:20] <wgrant> There's even a card for it
[05:39] <stub> StevenK: Applied happily to qastaging. Guess I should run it on production.
[05:39] <stub> staging is rather borked - empty db
[05:40] <StevenK> Haha, ouch
[05:40] <StevenK> stub: Let me lp-land it
[05:42] <StevenK> stub: Aren't we in the middle of backups?
[05:42] <stub> probably, but that doesn't matter for this
[05:42] <stub> That is only a problem for live index builds
[05:43] <StevenK> Right, okay.
[05:47] <StevenK> wallyworld_, wgrant: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/destroy-populate-project-sharing-policies/+merge/122442
[05:53] <wgrant> StevenK: +3? :(
[05:55] <StevenK> wgrant: Oh, bleh.
[05:55] <StevenK> And all of those 3 are imports that went from multi-line to single, so shush
[05:55] <wgrant> It was worth a try.
[06:44] <wallyworld_> wgrant: i just had a look at the accesspolicy code - are you stre the other delete methods just pass in ids? see for example def delete(cls, concrete_artifacts):
[06:46] <wgrant> wallyworld_: Natural keys, not necessarily primary keys
[06:47] <wallyworld_> hmm. ok. seems a bit superfulous if i have the objects
[06:47] <wgrant> Yeah, but the inconsistency is a bit bad
[06:47] <wallyworld_> i'll now have to unpack them just to apss them in
[06:47] <wgrant> Note that it's delete(concrete_artifacts), not delete(abstract_artifacts)
[06:52] <wgrant> One could argue that these shouldn't really be objects at all :)
[06:52] <wgrant> But mumble mumble
[07:18] <wallyworld_> i agree. i prefer to delete using just ids
[07:20] <wgrant> Right, but it's a toss-up between the performance-based surrogate key and the natural key.
[07:45] <adeuring> good morning
[16:26] <ev> ah, staging is dead. That would explain my inability to do much of anything with the API.
[16:28] <czajkowski> hmm
[16:28] <czajkowski> getting it kicked
[16:29] <czajkowski> ev: people are on it and it's being restored
[16:29] <ev> yay
[18:07] <lifeless> o/
[18:15] <jml> hi
[18:17] <lifeless> jml: oh hi
[18:33] <lifeless> jml: did you review my fixtures branch ?
[18:33] <jml> lifeless: maybe?
[18:33]  * jml looks
[18:34] <lifeless> jml: there is a class in there that wants to be free, pondering a new pypi project for it
[18:34] <jml> lifeless: yes, I reviewed.
[18:35] <lifeless> ahha so you did. Thanks
[18:35] <jml> lifeless: I'd wait until there was a project that wanted CallMany & didn't want anything else of fixtures
[18:35] <lifeless> jml: like testtools :P
[18:46] <jml> lifeless: huh, I guess so.
[18:46] <jml> lifeless: "Hard Facts" is a great read, btw.
[19:01] <lifeless> jml: it is, isn't it!
[21:21] <lifeless> any reviewers around ? https://code.launchpad.net/~lifeless/python-oops-datedir-repo/bug-960775/+merge/122580
[21:27] <lifeless> ev: o/
[21:27] <lifeless> ev: will reply to your mail today
[21:38] <czajkowski> lifeless: we're down some due to USA being off today
[21:40] <lifeless> yeah
[21:40] <lifeless> I can still hope :)
[21:44] <czajkowski> true :)
[21:44] <czajkowski> lifeless: hows the little one?
[21:47] <lifeless> just had a growth spurt
[21:47] <lifeless> was eating massive amounts every couple of hours for 3 days
[21:50] <czajkowski> heh keeping ye busy I'm sure
[21:51] <lifeless> yah
[21:51] <lifeless> I was at kiwipycon in the weekend
[21:51] <lifeless> we could have done with more sleep :P
[21:52] <czajkowski> I was at a 2 day Irish wedding , my liver isn't speaking to me
[21:55] <lifeless> LOL
[22:36] <lifeless> any reviewers around ? https://code.launchpad.net/~lifeless/python-oops-datedir-repo/bug-960775/+merge/122580 <- StevenK
[22:37] <StevenK> wgrant is OCR today. :-)
[22:38] <lifeless> StevenK: its small and you're doing work already :P
[22:38] <StevenK> lifeless: I'm in the middle of a few things, I'll look at it after if someone else hasn't already grabbed it.
[22:38] <lifeless> OTOH so is wgrant I see
[22:39] <lifeless> StevenK: thanks!; I'll whinge at wgrant right now.
[22:39]  * lifeless whinges
[22:39] <StevenK> Default state, isn't it?
[22:41] <lifeless> por moi?
[22:43] <wgrant> lifeless: 44	+ except IOError, e:
[22:43] <wgrant> 45	+ if e.args[0] == 'Empty OOPS Report':
[22:43] <wgrant> Really?
[22:47]  * cjwatson bangs the Python 3 compatibility drum a little
[22:49] <cjwatson> (s/,/ as/)
[22:50] <lifeless> cjwatson: I might care if we deployed on !lucid
[22:51] <wgrant> neem is precise
[22:52] <wgrant> We don't deploy on <lucid
[22:52] <wgrant> so as is fine
[22:52] <lifeless> lucid is python 2.6 isn't it ?
[22:52] <lifeless> I thought as was 2.7
[22:52] <lifeless> wgrant: this gets deployed on the various servers - e.g. everywhere.
[22:52] <cjwatson> 2.6 has as
[22:53] <cjwatson> LP uses 'except ... as'
[22:53] <wgrant> Right, we use it in lots of places in LP
[22:53] <wgrant> It's not new in 2.7
[22:53] <cjwatson> Everywhere - I went through and fixed everything using the old style
[22:53] <wgrant> Ah, indeed
[22:55] <cjwatson> https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/new-style-except/+merge/112727
[22:56] <lifeless> so sure, will change.
[22:56] <lifeless> cjwatson: everywhere in the main code tree; I guarantee lots of untouched places :)
[22:56] <lifeless> wgrant: as for the inspection, yes, really.
[22:56] <cjwatson> Well, yes, but enough that I also guarantee it will work for you
[22:56] <wgrant> lifeless: :(
[22:56] <cjwatson> Life's too short to figure out how to submit patches to everything else
[22:56] <lifeless> wgrant: lower layer signals that way
[22:57] <lifeless> cjwatson: sure, theres about 20 projects that have the same submission process as lp:launchpad :>
[22:57] <wgrant> lifeless: :(
[22:57] <lifeless> cjwatson: but I understand the overhead
[22:57] <cjwatson> And a bunch that don't
[22:58] <cjwatson> Also about 50% of the time reviewers seem faintly confused when I submit a patch to one of the other projects
[22:58] <lifeless> cjwatson: :( - thats sad, a little understandable, but sad.
[22:59] <lifeless> I probably need to beat that drum some more
[22:59] <cjwatson> Mostly about how to deal with landing
[23:00] <lifeless> cjwatson: ah, so thats more tractable
[23:01] <lifeless> wgrant: I can change the signalling, but honestly it doesn't seem worth a specific class
[23:08] <wgrant> lifeless: OK