[01:18]  * thumper is losing the will to finish this bit of work
[01:19]  * thumper takes a look at that critical bug that fwereade suggested
[01:46] <thumper> time to step back and look at the pending reviews...
[02:00] <axw> wallyworld_, thumper: what are your thoughts on doing `strings.HasSuffix(os.Args[0], ".test")` for changing default behaviour when running tests?
[02:00] <thumper> ?!
[02:00] <axw> my gut feeling is that it's bad, because it's adding test logic into non-test code
[02:00] <thumper> horrible
[02:00] <wallyworld_> context?
[02:00]  * thumper school run
[02:00] <axw> wallyworld_: disabling the finish-bootstrap stuff
[02:01] <axw> I was thinking we could just disable it always when running tests by doing something hackish like that
[02:01] <wallyworld_> yeah, go to agree with thumper on that one. i hate adding TestFoo() stuff but Go sucks in that it doesn't allow a better way to do it
[02:01] <wallyworld_> TestingFoo() even
[02:02] <axw> wallyworld_: how would you do it with, say, Python?
[02:03] <axw> I guess you'd just monkey patch
[02:03] <wallyworld_> yeah
[02:03] <axw> but that's what I'm doing here...
[02:03] <wallyworld_> but the test code has to be in the production code
[02:04] <axw> well, we could expose the finishBootstrap var
[02:04] <axw> the TestingX thing isn't strictly necessary
[02:04] <wallyworld_> we could, and that has been done elsewhere eg var FinishBootstrap = finishBootstrap
[02:05] <wallyworld_> i'd prefer the above
[02:05] <axw> which above?
[02:05] <axw> :)
[02:05] <wallyworld_> with a suitable comment, saying "exposed for testing"
[02:05] <wallyworld_>  var FinishBootstrap = finishBootstrap
[02:05] <axw> hmmkay. I didn't do that to cut down on duplication
[02:05] <wallyworld_> what duplication?
[02:06] <axw> defining a replacement function. I guess I could just put that in another package tho
[02:06] <wallyworld_> maybe i'm missing something
[02:07] <wallyworld_> i'm just suggesting introducing anj exported var
[02:07] <wallyworld_> so the testing stuff can live inside the _test file
[02:07] <axw> wallyworld_: and then remove the Testing functions, right?
[02:07] <wallyworld_> yes
[02:07] <axw> wallyworld_: so the contents of those are either duplicated, or moved
[02:08] <axw> no big deal I suppose
[02:08] <wallyworld_> there's also a pattern where a testing package is introduced
[02:08] <axw> yeah, I'll probably go with that
[02:08] <wallyworld_> and all the callers over various other packages call the stuff in the testing package
[02:08] <axw> provider/common/testing or so
[02:08] <wallyworld_> yeah
[02:08] <wallyworld_> still messy compated with python etc al
[02:10] <thumper> not entirely surprising that
[02:11] <thumper> given that go is compiled and strictly typed
[02:13] <wallyworld_> and it doesn't have friends like C++ or access to "private" methods like python
[02:15] <axw> I never liked friends in C++
[02:15] <thumper> I didn't like friends in C++ either
[02:16] <thumper> friendship isn't really that useful
[02:16] <thumper> because you have to give it
[02:16] <thumper> and it tightly couples things together
[02:16] <thumper> it would be nice though if you had the ability to say "i know what I'm doing" in go
[02:17] <thumper> anyway...
[02:31] <abentley> axw: For a minute I thought you were using "like" and "friends" in the Facebook sense.  My mind may be permanently warped.
[02:32] <axw> abentley: :) I don't Like my facebook Friends either
[03:05] <axw> thumper: you added a whole lot of stuff to the CL you just updated
[03:05] <axw> the local provider rsyslog one
[03:05] <thumper> really?
[03:05]  * thumper grunts
[03:05] <thumper> I merged trunk
[03:06] <thumper> and lbox shits itself
[03:06] <axw> ah
[03:06] <axw> because of the prereq maybe?
[03:06] <thumper> in all honesty there is nothing interesting in that diff, just questions around the interface...
[03:06] <thumper> maybe
[03:07] <axw> thumper: I mean the other one - but anyway, LGTM
[03:07] <axw> I didn't realise rsyslog was "Important"
[03:07] <thumper> :)
[03:07] <axw> should've checked
[03:07] <thumper> even on my vanilla precise box we have /etc/rsyslog.d
[03:08] <thumper> I was trying to do a reverse depends on rsyslog
[03:08] <thumper> but not sure how to drive dpkg
[03:09] <axw> not sure, but the Priority=Important, so it's in the base system
[03:09] <thumper> axw: ok, so ubuntu-minimal depends on rsyslog
[03:09] <axw> okey dokey
[03:09] <thumper> although
[03:10] <thumper> technically, we should add it as a depends to juju-local
[03:10] <thumper> apt-cache rdepends pkg-name FWIW
[03:11] <axw> thumper: thanks for the comment on tagOffset, the 1-indexing was the bit that confused me
[03:11] <thumper> :)
[03:11] <thumper> yeah, who indexes from 1?
[03:11] <axw> not sure, maybe the same people who say Monday is the first day of the week
[03:12] <axw> anyway... /me gets back to synchronous bootstrap
[06:05] <axw_> wallyworld_: I've updated the synchronous bootstrap CL. There's now no upper limit on DNS/SSH wait, and it can be cancelled with SIGINT. Also added the output as you suggested, and better progress reporting
[06:06] <axw_> haven't tested against the other providers yet
[06:09] <wallyworld_> axw_: ok, looking, thanks
[06:25] <wallyworld_> axw_: you were going to introduce a testing package for those test helpers?
[06:25] <axw_> doh
[06:25] <axw_> I was
[06:27] <axw_> wallyworld_: I'll update again later with that
[06:27] <wallyworld_> yeah, i'm not going ti blokc on that
[06:48]  * wallyworld_ -> walk the dog
[07:21] <rogpeppe> axw__, wallyworld_, TheMue: mornin' all
[07:22] <axw__> morning rogpeppe
[07:22] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: thanks for the review
[07:26] <wallyworld_> rogpeppe: np. nice to see that add machine stuff get some lovin'
[07:27] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: glad you're ok with it
[07:27] <wallyworld_> why wouldn't i be? :-)
[07:27] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: it took me a full day to understand the old code :-)
[07:27] <wallyworld_> i have had a had in it but a lot of the code predated my time :-)
[07:27] <wallyworld_> /had/hand
[07:28] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: i ended up manually simulating each path through it and writing down the trace
[07:28] <wallyworld_> i sorta just added to it, without refactoring
[07:28] <wallyworld_> i like it that the top level methods reflect each business case
[07:28] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: you're right about the machine doc duplication BTW - i'm just adding a machineDocForTemplate function
[07:28] <wallyworld_> \o/ thanks :-)
[07:29] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: i plan on losing AddMachineParams entirely BTW and exporting machineTemplate
[07:29] <wallyworld_> any code that takes a day to understand needs refactoring :-)
[07:29] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: well, perhaps it was just my small brain...
[07:30] <wallyworld_> that would be good cause that but of duplication will disappear with it
[07:30] <wallyworld_> bit
[07:30] <wallyworld_> i have a small brain too, smaller than most :-)
[07:30] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: yeah. and the code that digs around in it to work out what the caller is actually trying to do.
[07:31] <wallyworld_> i think the final outcome will be good
[07:35] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: i hope so. i feel that it should be straightforward to do the next modifications that i need to do.
[07:35] <wallyworld_> i'm always up for a good refactoring :-)
[07:38] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: BTW the logger.Info lines about transaction hooks will only ever happen in tests - transaction hooks are explicitly only there for testing
[07:38] <wallyworld_> ah ok
[07:39] <wallyworld_> maybe a comment in the code so the reader knowns the hooks are only run in tests?
[07:39] <wallyworld_> just as an fyi?
[07:39] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: will do
[07:40] <wallyworld_> thanks :-)
[08:00] <rogpeppe> fwereade, axw__: your reviews of https://codereview.appspot.com/30390043/ would be appreciated too, as it's a significant change
[08:00] <axw__> rogpeppe: ok, will take a look
[08:00] <rogpeppe> axw__: thans
[08:00] <rogpeppe> ks
[08:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, looking
[08:01] <fwereade> axw__, I haven't followed up on your CL -- did what I said yesterday make sense?
[08:01] <axw__> fwereade: are you talking about the state changes?
[08:02] <fwereade> axw__, yeah, the environment life stuff
[08:02] <axw__> fwereade: yup, makes sense - I checked with frankban about the tag usage
[08:02] <axw__> I sent you an email about it. but yes, they do use it
[08:02] <fwereade> axw__, great, thanks
[08:02] <axw__> so I guess we'll have to not validate them for now
[08:03]  * fwereade tries to keep up to date with mail :/
[08:03] <axw__> fwereade, rogpeppe: if you're interested, I've got a synchronous bootstrap CL up for review here: https://codereview.appspot.com/30190043/
[08:03] <rogpeppe> axw__: looking
[08:04] <axw__> wallyworld_ has given it a once over, but this is a non-trivial change, so more eyes the better
[08:04] <axw__> well, a thrice over I think
[08:04] <axw__> :)
[08:06] <axw__> fwereade: with the environment life CL, I still have a question about how we signal state servers to kill themselves
[08:06] <axw__> fwereade: that was the reason for Remove (and EnsureDead before it)
[08:09] <fwereade> axw__, off the top of my head: would it make sense to have a path that ties it into the Remove of a manually provisioned machine? current schema might not accommodate that, though
[08:09] <fwereade> axw__, might require per-provider provisioned-machine refcounts
[08:09] <fwereade> axw__, so forget that for now :(
[08:10] <axw__> fwereade: refcounts for what sorry?
[08:10] <fwereade> axw__, the number of manually provisioned machines in existence
[08:11] <axw__> I don't understand how that'd be used here
[08:12] <fwereade> axw__, possibly broken down by role -- we can kill the environment (or the manual state servers) once all the manual normal nodes have been killed
[08:12] <axw__> fwereade: ok. I think we're thiinking the same thing, but you want transactional guarantees on mongo?
[08:12] <fwereade> axw__, yes
[08:13] <fwereade> axw__, they're tedious to work with but they're a lot better than nothing
[08:13] <axw__> fwereade: sure. I was going to put all the logic inside apiserver/client, but you probably gathered that already
[08:14] <axw__> (hence the env Dying -> prevents machine addition)
[08:16] <fwereade> axw__, I feel that an env being set to Dying should set things in motion in itself
[08:16] <fwereade> axw__, the dying preventing machine addition is necessary regardless, isn't it?
[08:16] <fwereade> axw__, assume multiple clients
[08:17] <fwereade> axw__, it's a little bit thin, but have you read doc/hacking-state.txt? and the various other lifecycle related docs?
[08:18] <axw__> fwereade: no, but I will now :)
[08:19] <fwereade> axw__, I'm afraid the lifecycle stuff has not entirely kept up with reality (I might get around to fixing them in my Copious Free Time) but things haven't diverged that much -- most of them should still be actually true
[08:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: how strongly do you feel about Machine.doc.TxnRevno, and in particular how important is it that AddMachine do a refresh immediately after creation to pick up an accurate txn-revno?
[08:23] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i've just realised that it's racy, and it seems unnecessary.
[08:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, IIRC it's necessary for the watcher -- but I think I'd be fine with Machine.Watch grabbing a fresh TxnRevno before we start watching
[08:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, Ican't think of any cases where the API server calls Watchon a freshly-added machine
[08:25] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's not really necessary for the watcher tbh
[08:25] <fwereade> rogpeppe, fwiw the point is not that it be accurate, specifically, but that it have a value that corresponds with reality
[08:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you'll get an extra event if txn-revno is too low, but otherwise the watchers work fine
[08:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and that extra event might happen anyway, if someone's made a change since you last refreshed
[08:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I recall niemeyer got really irritated when I tried to write watchers that just treated the last-known-revno as -1, so I internalised it as something necessary, but I don't recall the details-- yeah, that had been my initial supposition
[08:27] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm thinking that just leaving it as zero when adding a machine should be fine
[08:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ha!
[08:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I factored that stuff out anyway
[08:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, have a look around, see if *anyone* uses that field
[08:27] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I'd love it if we just dropped it
[08:27] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the machineUnits watcher does
[08:28] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but tbh i don't think it needs to
[08:30] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the only problem is the test that specifically tests that txnrevno is correct after AddMachine (TestAddAndGetEquivalence)
[08:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I think that really I'd prefer not to have watchers that potentially start with double-events signifying no change
[08:32] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i don't think any extra event will be emitted, but... let me check
[08:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but equally that txn-revno lookups should probably be secreted away inside the watcher code
[08:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe, the TxnRevno fields then become useful only when doing ultra-pedantic txn assertions and can in generalbe dropped
[10:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i finally gave in and did it. what do you think of this? https://codereview.appspot.com/30770043
[10:20] <fwereade> rogpeppe, if it's what we were talking about above, I love it already, but I've got to go to laura's school right now :(
[10:20] <fwereade> (not emergency but appointment)
[10:20] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's not quite
[10:20] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but it was prompted by it
[10:20] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's a  DeepEquals checker that treats empty slices == nil slices
[10:21] <rogpeppe> axw_, dimitern, wallyworld_: would appreciate your thoughts too
[10:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe, looking
[10:22]  * wallyworld_ has had several drinks, being friday evening and all
[10:22] <wallyworld_> but in general i don't agree empty == nil
[10:23] <wallyworld_> well, maybe go likes to think they are equal, but that i disagree with
[10:23] <wallyworld_> since nil should be a distinct value with a different semantic meaning to empty
[10:24] <wallyworld_> at least that's the case in all other languages i have used
[10:24] <wallyworld_> and it allows you to distinguish between "i don't know" and "empty"
[10:36] <mattyw> fwereade, rogpeppe who would be best to talk to about the juju deploy command - how it works currently and how it might work in the future (I know there are some changes coming at some point)
[10:37] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: go doesn't think they're equal, but in many cases we do treat them as the same
[10:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe, reviewed
[10:37] <rogpeppe> dimitern: thanks
[10:38] <wallyworld_> rogpeppe: that i find an issue with
[10:38] <wallyworld_> since nil is semantically different to empty
[10:38] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: it's actually only an issue for DeepEquals
[10:38] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: because otherwise you can't compare slices
[10:38] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: (except against nil, which we almost never do)
[10:39] <wallyworld_> i think is an unfortunate Go idiom or some such
[10:39] <wallyworld_> usually, nil = "i don't have a value for this thing"
[10:39] <rogpeppe> mattyw: i'm happy to chat about it; fwereade probably has the best bird's eye view of where things might be going
[10:39] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: luckily in go we don't need to use in-band signalling so much
[10:40] <mattyw> rogpeppe, ok - so the way it works now - it actually does a bzr branch locally (more or less)
[10:40] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: lots of things *can't* be nil (ints, strings, etc)
[10:40] <wallyworld_> rogpeppe: yeah, i'm not sure if that's a cause or a consequence
[10:40] <wallyworld_> in a true oo world everything can be nil
[10:40] <wallyworld_> which sadly go is not
[10:41] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: i'm glad that we don't have nil everyewhere
[10:41] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: value types are ace
[10:41] <rogpeppe> mattyw: go on
[10:41]  * TheMue thinks back of his smalltalk time *sigh*
[10:42] <mattyw> rogpeppe, that's right is it - more or less a bzr branch happens on the machine you run juju deploy on?
[10:42] <rogpeppe> mattyw: i'm not sure it does; let me check
[10:43] <rogpeppe> mattyw: no i don't think it does
[10:43] <rogpeppe> mattyw: it pulls a charm bundle from the charm store (if the charm's not local)
[10:43] <rogpeppe> mattyw: the charm bundle is a tgz file
[10:44] <mattyw> rogpeppe, ok - and I believe that might be changing so that it happens on the state server instead of locally?
[10:44] <rogpeppe> mattyw: if you do a deploy through the api, that already implements that logic, so nothing is created locally
[10:44] <rogpeppe> mattyw: yes. except for local charms, which must be pushed up to the server
[10:46] <mattyw> rogpeppe, ok - that's probably all I need for know - thanks very much - don't leave the country though
[10:46]  * rogpeppe puts his passport down
[10:48] <natefinch> fwereade: standup?
[10:58] <mattyw> rogpeppe, when would you have a spare few minutes for a quick hangout?
[11:05] <natefinch> mattyw: we're in a hangout right now, but should be done soon
[11:07] <mattyw> natefinch, no problem I thought that was the case - just getting my booking in early ;)
[11:11] <rogpeppe> mattyw: i'll just look at a review, have a bowl of cereal and then we'll do that
[11:15] <mattyw> rogpeppe, ok - no particular hurry
[11:26] <jamespage> anyone around with an azure account who could confirm https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1246320 with the juju-core package that's in saucy proposed? (details on how in the bug report)
[11:26] <_mup_> Bug #1246320: Azure bootstrap fails: versioning header is not specified <azure> <bootstrap> <verification-needed> <Go Windows Azure Client Library:Fix Committed by wallyworld> <juju-core:Fix Committed by wallyworld> <juju-core 1.16:Fix Released by wallyworld> <juju-core trunk:Fix Committed by wallyworld> <juju-core (Ubuntu):Fix Released> <juju-core (Ubuntu Saucy):Fix Committed> <juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty):Fix Released> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/12
[11:28] <rogpeppe> mattyw: you got a hangout location?
[11:29] <natefinch> jamespage: I have an azure account, but limited time.  I could share my azure creds with you if that's helpful
[11:29] <jamespage> natefinch, please
[11:29] <jamespage> (its the last bug needing verficiation)
[11:33] <natefinch> jamespage: sent
[11:49] <rogpeppe> dimitern: responded to your review.
[11:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe, i'm not entirely convinced
[11:52] <dimitern> rogpeppe, if we're going to copy/paste stuff from the go source into our codebase, it should be consistent in formatting
[11:52] <rogpeppe> dimitern: if we're copy/pasting something, it should be as identical as possible with the original so that when the original changes there are as few conflicts as possible
[11:52] <dimitern> rogpeppe, if otoh we're going to follow possible go source changes and use/patch as needed when it changes, it doesn't belong in juju-core, but in an external package
[11:53] <rogpeppe> dimitern: we've already got one precedent, in thirdparty/pbkdf2
[11:53] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't want to add an external dependency for this
[11:53] <dimitern> rogpeppe, which was done before we decided on the current rules of consistency
[11:54] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't think that vendored code should be subject to the same rules
[11:54] <dimitern> rogpeppe, I don't believe making our code messier is helpful for long-term maintenance
[11:54] <dimitern> ;)
[11:54] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it's not really our code
[11:54] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it's their code + minimal patches to make it do what we need
[11:54] <dimitern> rogpeppe, then what's wrong with an external dependency?
[11:55] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it seems overkill to make a whole new project just for this. and i don't think it solves anything.
[11:55] <dimitern> rogpeppe, call it code.google.com/rog/deepequals or something
[11:55] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't see what issue it solves
[11:55] <dimitern> rogpeppe, use an existing project then
[11:55] <dimitern> rogpeppe, consistency
[11:56] <dimitern> rogpeppe, that's what it solves
[11:56] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't believe that consistency is an iron rule, particular in this kind of case
[11:56] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I agree with dimitern... I think we put way too much under juju-core that should be independent projects
[11:56] <dimitern> natefinch, +1
[11:56] <dimitern> rogpeppe, we should be going leaner and more consistent, not the other way around
[11:57] <natefinch> rogpeppe: this has nothing to do with juju specifically. It just happens to be useful for us.
[11:57] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i'd prefer us to have less dependencies not more
[11:57] <rogpeppe> natefinch: true, but i don't think that's a bad thing
[11:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe, complex projects like juju are composed of many dependencies
[11:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe, nothing wrong with that, it's a better design, cleaner
[11:57] <natefinch> rogpeppe: dependencies shouldn't be a problem.  If they are, we should address that, but I don't think they are.
[11:57] <rogpeppe> dimitern: the less dependencies, the less fragile IMO
[11:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe, i disagree
[11:58] <natefinch> rogpeppe: true for dependencies not controlled by us.  But we do control this one.
[11:58] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it's a fundamental truth
[11:58] <rogpeppe> dimitern: even if we do control the dependency, it's one more entity to manage
[11:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe, smaller, better organized chunks that are internally consistent and do best one or a few things is better than a monolithic whole
[11:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe, what's wrong with managing more?
[11:59] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it's not monolithic - we're organised into independent package within juju-core. i really don't see the problem here.
[11:59] <rogpeppe> dimitern: more work to do
[12:00] <jamespage> natefinch, thanks
[12:00] <dimitern> rogpeppe, we're coming the the old discussion of "why having a huge package like state with no internal substructure is worse than smaller, well-defined packages"
[12:00] <dimitern> rogpeppe, less is more in this case
[12:01] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i think that's a different issue actually
[12:02] <natefinch> rogpeppe: for this particular case in question... it's a very well-defined project that does one thing and does it well and is unlikely to see a lot of churn.  in this case, the overhead of creating and maintaining a project should be minimal.
[12:02] <dimitern> rogpeppe, it's true we were not always following the principle of "what's in juju-core is juju related", but we can improve on that by not making it worse
[12:03] <rogpeppe> natefinch: that's an argument for moving all of testing/checkers into an external package
[12:03] <rogpeppe> natefinch: which might be a reasonable thing to do
[12:03] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I was actually just thinking that
[12:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe, i'm not arguing just for the sake of it - this specific case is a trivial example, but shows a fundamental design issue with many parts of the codebase, which have not place in the main code base
[12:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe, i agree to moving checkers outside
[12:04] <rogpeppe> dimitern: for me, it depends if some other project might want to use those parts
[12:04] <dimitern> rogpeppe, it doesn't really matter
[12:04] <dimitern> rogpeppe, what matters is to make our life easier by removing reusable chunks like that, not specific to juju, even if noone else uses them
[12:04] <rogpeppe> dimitern: there *is* overhead in maintaining an external project dependency
[12:05] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't see how it makes *anything* easier
[12:05] <dimitern> rogpeppe, and doing so will make them more likely to be reused, than if there are in juju
[12:05] <rogpeppe> dimitern: perhaps we don't want them to be reused
[12:05] <dimitern> rogpeppe, what's the overhead of maintaining a set of reusable, well-defined helpers, like the checkers, which certainly do not change often
[12:06] <rogpeppe> dimitern: because if something is reused by external code, then we're not nearly as free to change if if our requirements change
[12:06] <rogpeppe> dimitern: non-zero
[12:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe, we can't stop them from being reused, even now, but it's not obvious
[12:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe, not true - we still control the external project
[12:06] <rogpeppe> dimitern: that's true
[12:06] <natefinch> rogpeppe: that is an interesting point, about having to worry about external use.... keeping stuff in juju-core means we can hack at it any way we like, since no one in their right mind would link against anything under juju-core
[12:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe, by your logic goose should've been part of juju-core
[12:07] <rogpeppe> natefinch: well, i kinda hope that people will in time, but that's a different issue
[12:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe, or the gomaasapi - who else uses them?
[12:07] <rogpeppe> dimitern: goose should be useful by other people wanting to use openstack, just like goamz is useful by other people wanting to use aws
[12:07] <rogpeppe> dimitern: same there
[12:07] <natefinch> rogpeppe: only for juju-specific stuff.  Anything else could break at any time, since it's so deep in our codebase
[12:08] <dimitern> rogpeppe, right, and a set of comprehensive checkers, that have nothing to do with juju in particular, also
[12:08] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I think this and the checkers are a good example of prime subjects for extraction.... because they're well defined and no going to have their interfaces change
[12:08] <rogpeppe> dimitern: except i don't want us to depend on 100 external projects, each created just because it was possible to factor them out
[12:09] <dimitern> rogpeppe, why?
[12:09] <dimitern> rogpeppe, that's the main issue of argument
[12:09] <rogpeppe> dimitern: because i don't think it helps anything
[12:09] <dimitern> rogpeppe, i don't think we're getting anywhere here
[12:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe, ;)
[12:10] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah, i guess
[12:10] <natefinch> dimitern: I think it's valid to say that there is an expectation of API compatibility in independent projects that we don't have under juju-core.  Stuff under juju-core is sort of assumed to be part of a larger project and not intended for independent consumption
[12:10] <rogpeppe> natefinch: +1
[12:10] <rogpeppe> natefinch: *particularly* for stuff under testing...
[12:11] <dimitern> rogpeppe, you're generalizing a specific case where using an external dep is a good thing
[12:11] <natefinch> rogpeppe: but that being the case, the checkers and your lax deepequals are still things that probably are fine and good to have as independent packages
[12:11] <dimitern> rogpeppe, i'm not saying "let's have 100 deps", i'm saying let's apply some common sense
[12:11] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i haven't seen a single argument as to *why* using more external deps is a Good Thing
[12:11] <dimitern> natefinch, exactly
[12:12] <natefinch> rogpeppe: it makes us better open source citizens and helps out fellow go programmers, including people from Canonical
[12:12] <dimitern> rogpeppe, code describes linked concepts and abstractions, all related
[12:12] <rogpeppe> natefinch: ok, that's a good argument
[12:12] <rogpeppe> dimitern: that's too abstract for me
[12:12] <dimitern> rogpeppe, if they're not related, they shouldn't be coupled together
[12:13] <rogpeppe> dimitern: that sounds like a statement of belief, not an actual practical reason
[12:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe, would you put a wordprocessor and a database in the same codebase, if they just happen to connect sometimes, but can operate totally independently?
[12:13] <natefinch> rogpeppe: definitely we have to be pragmatic. We can't sacrifice our own flexibility... but we're not saying that... just saying, if it's not going to cause much pain and someone else might want to use it, then make it an external project
[12:13] <rogpeppe> dimitern: quite possibly
[12:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe, ok, no point to argue further
[12:14] <dimitern> rogpeppe, you simply refuse to see my point :)
[12:14] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i see that you strongly believe in that principle
[12:14] <rogpeppe> dimitern: but i believe in pragmatism, not principles
[12:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe, yes, i do, because of experience (bad usually) - what happens with large projects with fuzzy boundaries, things that shouldn't be together but historically are kept like that and coupled even further, which makes refactoring difficult
[12:16] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i definitely buy that argument. by that argument, we could easily factor out the checkers, cloudinit, maybe the rpc package and some others too
[12:16] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i'm not sure those historical arguments apply here, as the go package system is strongly boundaried and non-circular
[12:17] <natefinch> rogpeppe: seems like the good open source thing to do
[12:17] <dimitern> rogpeppe, putting independent things together, just for the sake of convenience, in my experience ever so slightly tends to couple them more and make them less independent
[12:17] <rogpeppe> dimitern: there's nothing about having something in an external project that means that things are easier to refactor
[12:17] <rogpeppe> dimitern: decoupling is good, no question
[12:18] <rogpeppe> dimitern: but whether two packages are in the same project is orthogonal to how coupled they are
[12:18] <dimitern> rogpeppe, no it's not - because they can change together and that's a temptation too big to resist to couple them over time
[12:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe, anyway, we veered of way off track
[12:19] <rogpeppe> dimitern: goose is way too strongly coupled with the openstack provider
[12:19] <rogpeppe> dimitern: the fact that they're in separate projects doesn't really help in that refard
[12:19] <rogpeppe> regard
[12:20] <rogpeppe> dimitern: conversely the rpc package isn't strongly coupled with any other package outside rpc. we can maintain dependency hygiene inside juju-core too, and we really should.
[12:21] <dimitern> rogpeppe, lgtm, just to have it landed, even with these minor inconsistencies
[12:21] <rogpeppe> dimitern: thanks
[12:21]  * TheMue => lunch
[12:21] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i hope you can see where i'm coming from, even if you might not agree :-)
[12:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe, I see, I hope you can see my point as well
[12:23]  * dimitern gets hungry when arguing like that :)
[12:23]  * dimitern -> lunch as well
[12:23] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i hear it, but i can't *feel* it in the same way as you...
[12:24] <rogpeppe> dimitern: enjoy!
[12:26] <dimitern> rogpeppe, thanks :)
[12:53] <rogpeppe> hmm, this has some test failures i've never seen before: https://code.launchpad.net/~rogpeppe/juju-core/467-checkers-deepequals/+merge/196247
[12:53] <rogpeppe> ... Panic: Couldn't create temporary directory: mkdir /tmp/gocheck-5074209722772702441: file exists (PC=0x413D01)
[12:53] <rogpeppe> how could that happen?!
[12:58] <jam> rogpeppe: gocheck is broken
[12:59] <rogpeppe> jam: oh, that's not good
[12:59] <jam> rogpeppe: it doesn't seed its random number generator
[12:59] <jam> so after 100 temp directories get created, it "runs out"
[12:59] <rogpeppe> jam: ha ha
[12:59] <jam> rogpeppe: I'll clean it up, I would say gocheck should be fixed, but it keeps us from leaking *too* many
[12:59] <rogpeppe> jam: is that actually a problem with ioutil.MkTempDir() ?
[13:00] <jam> rogpeppe: so MkTempDir wouldn't run out after 100 tries like gocheck's internals
[13:00] <jam> but we would still be leaking dirs (I think)
[13:00] <jam> rogpeppe: and filling up /tmp with dirs is a good way to slowly kill your machine
[13:00] <jam> so I haven't "fixed" gocheck
[13:01] <rogpeppe> jam: ioutil.TempDir does seed properly anyway
[13:02] <rogpeppe> jam: could you clean up those tempories please then, before my branch dies again? (perhaps you have, in which case thanks!)
[13:03] <jam> rogpeppe: i did
[13:03] <rogpeppe> jam: cool
[13:03] <jam> rogpeppe: ideally we'd figure out why we're leaking dirs, fix that, end then fix gocheck to use ioutil.TempDir
[13:03] <rogpeppe> jam: that would indeed be good
[13:05] <rogpeppe> jam, dimitern, fwereade, TheMue, wallyworld_, mattyw: FYI i'm going to be travelling this afternoon. i'll be working on the train, but probably with only partial internet connectivity
[13:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cool, enjoy your travels
[13:06] <rogpeppe> i leave in about 2 hours
[13:06] <TheMue> rogpeppe: ok, enjoy
[13:06] <rogpeppe> fwereade: did you manage to take a look at https://codereview.appspot.com/30390043/ BTW?
[13:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i've also got https://codereview.appspot.com/30900043 which does the txn-revno changes we discussed
[13:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe, not enough of it yet
[13:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: (please ignore the testing/checkers changes in that branch - i don't know why they're there, as i included the other branch as a prereq)
[13:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok, np
[13:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe, no worries
[13:40] <mattyw> rogpeppe, going anywhere nice?
[13:40] <rogpeppe> mattyw: up to edinburhg
[13:40] <rogpeppe> gh
[13:40] <mattyw> rogpeppe, that is nice - enjoy
[13:40] <rogpeppe> mattyw: there's a fiddle festival on. lots and lots of trad tunes!
[13:41] <mattyw> rogpeppe, excellent! going for the weekend?
[13:41] <rogpeppe> mattyw: aye
[13:42] <mattyw> rogpeppe, scotsfiddlefestival.com?
[13:42] <rogpeppe> mattyw: that'll be the one
[13:43] <mattyw> rogpeppe, who are you looking forward to seeing most (which ones should listen to)
[13:44] <rogpeppe> mattyw: Frigg are excellent, though I've seen 'em before
[13:44] <rogpeppe> mattyw: mostly i'm going for the crack
[13:44] <rogpeppe> mattyw: lots of sessions and late nights
[13:47]  * rogpeppe goes to lunch
[14:26] <rick_h_> morning sinzui, can I get a few min hangout time today at your leisure?
[14:26] <sinzui> sure
[14:27] <sinzui> I am free at the top of the hour rick_h_
[14:27] <rick_h_> sinzui: sounds good, thanks
[14:47] <jcastro> sinzui, for your consideration sir! https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1254061
[14:47] <_mup_> Bug #1254061: Add bash completion for OSX  <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1254061>
[14:47] <sinzui> oh, I might be able to to that mysel
[14:47] <sinzui> f
[14:51] <natefinch> niemeyer: just wanted to mention I got that code working yesterday.  Thanks for the help.
[15:06] <rick_h_> sinzui: hit me up with an invite when you're free. Thanks.
[15:10] <sinzui> rick_h_, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpigc90pv2nkor675dm9p9oo?hl=en
[15:19] <natefinch> hey rogpeppe, I don't think I can go through with making the public struct for replica set members and a private one for marshaling.  It just complicates the code too much, plus we lose information in the translation about what values are actually set in the database versus which are being defaulted.  The code is so much cleaner and easier to understand just using pointers to the optional values.
[15:31] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i actually think that not providing that information could be considered a positive thing
[15:31] <rogpeppe> natefinch: it means that the user doesn't have to know what a missing value means
[15:33] <rogpeppe> natefinch: but i do appreciate what you're saying.
[15:34] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i can't decide which comes first: a package that's easy and intuitive to use, or one that's simpler maps closely to the underlying transport
[15:38] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I actually think that the pointers are simpler to use. You don't have to use some default value struct to create new members
[15:39] <rogpeppe> natefinch: but you do have to create variables for all your fields so you can make pointers to them...
[15:40] <natefinch> rogpeppe: yes, but most of the optional fields aren't going to be used often, and it's not really that hard to make a f := false and use &f for the value
[15:43] <rogpeppe> natefinch: is it really that awkward to have a couple of functions for each type, doing the translation in each direction?
[15:45] <rogpeppe> natefinch: but if you really feel strongly, as it seems you do, then do it the way you feel like
[15:45] <natefinch> rogpeppe: it's not the translation that is awkward, it's the fact that we lose whether or not a value was intentionally set.... also the zero value of Member is then a generally broken value, so we need AddressToMembers and DefaultMember.  All that can go away if we just make people deal with the fact that there are some optional values on Member
[15:47] <rogpeppe> natefinch: but the other side of the coin is that when reading a value, the package needs to know that a nil vote count actually means 1, for example
[15:47] <rogpeppe> natefinch: and it won't print out very nicely, because it'll just print pointer values for all the fields
[15:47] <natefinch> rogpeppe: we could make accessor methods that do the translation internally.  I know it's not ideal.
[15:48] <rogpeppe> natefinch: and people will need to be careful with pointer aliasing
[15:48] <rogpeppe> natefinch: gotta go right now, back in 5 when i'm on the train
[15:48] <natefinch> rogpeppe: ok
[15:53] <rogpeppe1> natefinch: sorry, intermittent connection here
[15:53] <rogpeppe1> natefinch: last thing i saw was:
[15:53] <rogpeppe1> [15:45:56] <natefinch> rogpeppe: it's not the translation that is awkward, it's the fact that we lose whether or not a value was intentionally set.... also the zero value of Member is then a generally broken value, so we need AddressToMembers and DefaultMember.  All that can go away if we just make people deal with the fact that there are some optional values on Member
[15:56] <niemeyer> natefinch: Sweet
[16:03] <natefinch> rogpeppe1: no problem.  That was pretty much it... we could make accessor methods that return the right defaults, but you're right about printing it out
[16:08] <natefinch> rogpeppe2:  (retype of my last message) no problem.  That was pretty much it... we could make accessor methods that return the right defaults, but you're right about printing it out.  Seems like there's no real great way to do it while maintaining information about values that are unset.
[17:16]  * rogpeppe3 has reached end of journey.
[17:16] <rogpeppe3> i can say definitively that east coast wi-fi is terrible...
[17:16] <rogpeppe3> happy weekends all
[18:46] <hazmat> ? -> Copyright 2013 Joyent Inc.
[18:47] <natefinch> hazmat: ?
[18:47] <hazmat> natefinch, joyent provider has that, pretty sure that's not the intent for cla
[18:48] <hazmat> contributor license agreement
[18:48] <natefinch> hazmat: hah, I see.  Yeah, probably just old habit for them


[02:50] <Sveinburne> Hi there! Having problem here with the mapping of a bash command. Any help would be very welcomed! I intalled groovy by hand, puting all the archive in /usr/local/groovy, adding +x to bin folder. I can launch groovy script without any problem from the bin folder, but cannot through bash. I did add the bin path to PATH, and export... any suggestions?
[15:29] <genii> I just heard someone shot the guard at the Unknown Soldier memorial in Ottawa
[16:48] <willwh> genii: yeahs
[16:48] <willwh> sounds like a REAL mess up there atm
[16:48] <willwh> motorcycle chase being reported or something
[16:48] <willwh> I had to turn off the radio - too much work to do!
[16:50] <genii> I'm sort of monitoring the CBC newsfeeds now. I suspect it will turn out to be friends of the kid that ran over the soldiers a couple days ago.
[17:13] <willwh> yep
[17:13] <willwh> I'd put money on it if I were a betting man :P
[17:17] <genii> I was also saying in another channel ...  Malala Yousafzai is also in Ottawa this week, maybe they were trying to finish the job they botched before.
[17:36] <willwh> oh she is?
[17:36] <willwh> hmm
[17:37] <willwh> I'm not one for violence unless someone hurts my family, but this stuff makes me really angry.
[20:28] <genii> They just cancelled Leafs-Senators game tonight because of this crap


 :-D
[09:34] <kvarley> Ubuntu 12.10 64-bit - My laptop always boots up with the wireless turned off. How can I fix this?
[09:36] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:37] <popey> kvarley: how do you switch it on?
[09:38] <kvarley> popey: I go to the wireless indicator which makes me think software rather than hardware switch?
[09:51] <kvarley> I wasn't happy that I didn't have Steam on Ubuntu for years and now it's here I'm not happy that Steam is on Ubuntu - My wallet is thinning out rapidly!
[09:54] <mungbean_> i stil get plagued by the debconf window appearing when installing things from software centre
[09:54] <mungbean_> experienced it on loads of different isntalls
[10:12] <kvarley> What license is the ambiance theme under?
[10:14] <Laney> kvarley: /usr/share/doc/light-themes/copyright
[10:15] <kvarley> Laney: Thanks, I was looking in /usr/share/themes/Ambiance but couldn't see anything
[10:15] <Laney> apt-cache search ambiance reveals the package name
[10:15] <kvarley> Laney: Ah ok, thank you :)
[10:15] <Laney> then /usr/share/doc/<package>/copyright shows you the license info for every package
[10:16] <kvarley> Nice to know
[10:16] <kvarley> Looking at repackaging ambiance for another environment, when I'm forced to use a different environment other than unity I just miss ambiance too much!
[11:01] <davmor2> Morning All
[11:01] <davmor2> popey: :( on the phone dude
[11:08] <popey> yeah
[11:34] <DJones> Is it lazy to have a coffee machine in a home office? To me it makes perfect sense, makes sure I have enough to drink while working, I don't have to interupt what I'm doing to go downstairs to make a drink etc, my wife said its being lazy
[11:34] <davmor2> DJones: I have a Dolce Gusto beside me right now :)
[11:35] <DJones> davmor2: Good, I'm glad its not just me
[11:35] <davmor2> DJones: I don't you it constantly but it is there when I want a drink
[11:36] <DJones> This is an  8 cup percolator, fill it up and drink through the day as needed
[11:38] <dwatkins> DJones: I tend to take breaks to go to the kitchen and make a cup of tea whether I'm working at home or in the office, just to get away from my desk etc. in-between tasks.
[11:39] <dwatkins> so having a coffee machine isn't lazy, but it might mean I don't get regular breaks away from the machine to chill out
[11:41] <ubuntubhoy> Anyone able to help me get an old laptop with BCM4318 wifi working on 12.04 ?
[11:46] <dogmatic69> ubuntubhoy: just state the problem and someone might help.
[11:47] <ubuntubhoy> basically networking is enabled, but shows nothing
[11:48] <ubuntubhoy> iwlist sc an says the network is down
[11:48] <ubuntubhoy> I have checked a ton of stuff on Ask Ubuntu, but nothing has worked
[11:48] <dogmatic69> did you just install?
[11:48] <ubuntubhoy> yip
[11:48] <dogmatic69> did it work on the live disk?
[11:49] <ubuntubhoy> other than updating nothing has been added
[11:49] <ubuntubhoy> nope
[11:49] <ubuntubhoy> same on the live disk
[11:49] <dogmatic69> ok
[11:49] <dogmatic69> sometimes it works on live and not once installed
[11:49] <ubuntubhoy> but it did work on a previous version
[11:49] <ubuntubhoy> mother-in-laws laptop
[11:49] <ubuntubhoy> was doing a re-install
[11:49] <dogmatic69> what laptop is it?
[11:50] <ubuntubhoy> an old Acer Aspire 3630
[11:51] <dogmatic69> what does lshw show?
[11:53] <ubuntubhoy> basically says *-network disabled
[11:54] <ubuntubhoy> also has a *-remoteaccess UNCLAIMED above it
[11:54] <dogmatic69> there is a askabuntu that says its starts up disabled.
[11:54] <dogmatic69> did you try
[11:54] <dogmatic69> sudo rmmod -f ath5k
[11:54] <dogmatic69> sudo rfkill unblock all
[11:54] <dogmatic69> sudo modprobe ath5k
[11:55] <ubuntubhoy> yeah, saw that
[11:55] <ubuntubhoy> I have a BCM chip though
[11:55] <ubuntubhoy> not ath
[11:56] <dogmatic69> change the ath5k part maybe?
[11:56] <ubuntubhoy> BCM4318 [Airforce One 54g]
[11:56] <kvarley> Random question, my headset picks up a lot of noise. Is there any way to strip that out on-the-fly?
[12:02] <kvarley> Another q, how to I listen to my mic live? I remember on XP ages ago you could tick a box to "Listen to this device" or something similar
[12:02] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: where is it plugged in?
[12:02] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: unmute it
[12:03] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Plugged into the 3.5mm port on the side of my laptop that does both headphones and mic in one socket
[12:03] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: some of those are just noisy.. can't do anything about that
[12:03] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Hehe ok :)
[12:03] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: It's a Wii U headset so I suspect it is just bad quality mic
[12:03] <kvarley> Might stick some foam on it
[12:04] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: I switched to an USB sound card/stick on my desktop because the default outputs were VERY noisy (I could hear almost every bit passing on the PCI-E bus)
[12:04] <kvarley> lol
[12:04] <kvarley> Lovely
[12:04] <kvarley> I was just seeing how much pain I'm inflicting upon other gamers when using the mic for online play
[12:05] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: did you install the broadcom wifi drivers?
[12:05] <ubuntubhoy> Dave2: think my issue is the firmware
[12:05] <ubuntubhoy> just going through something
[12:06] <ubuntubhoy> might be the answer
[12:06] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: what version of Ubuntu?
[12:06] <ubuntubhoy> 12.04
[12:07] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: open the dash type in jockey and see if it displays additional drivers
[12:07] <ubuntubhoy> just rebooting
[12:07] <ubuntubhoy> 2 secs
[12:07] <bigcalm> davmor2: you're slightly closer to Tamworth than I am. Go and fetch my new workstation from UPS would you? ;)
[12:08] <ubuntubhoy> Dave2: also, it hung trying to install additional drivers twice. Had to re-install
[12:08]  * czajkowski pokes davmor2 HOWDY
[12:08] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: check your tab completes
[12:09] <davmor2> czajkowski: how do
[12:10] <ubuntubhoy> Dave2: tab completes ?
[12:10] <davmor2> bigcalm: it's probably easier for you, 1. the A5 is close to you than it is me, 2. you'd need id if they let you collect :P
[12:10] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: I'm davmor2 not Dave2
[12:10] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[12:10] <ubuntubhoy> gotcha
[12:10] <ubuntubhoy> bad eyesight is bad
[12:10] <bigcalm> davmor2: it's due for delivery tomorrow. I'm just impatient
[12:12] <davmor2> bigcalm: if it has UEFI burn a cd/dvd rather than a pendrive, also use 64bit 12.10 + if you want to keep secureboot in place :)
[12:12] <bigcalm> davmor2: good to know, ta
[12:13] <bigcalm> davmor2: though until I have a new ssd for Ubuntu, I'll have to make do with Windows on the hdd. Work comes before play, sadly
[12:13] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: so the fact that the drivers weren't installed will mean that the wifi was permanently down
[12:15] <davmor2> bigcalm: yeap just a heads up, ie if you intend keeping windows 8 on it then it has to have secure boot in place, but the new UEFI menu will mean that it will happily allow you to boot both which is cool :)
[12:15] <bigcalm> davmor2: I ordered the machine with Windows 7
[12:16] <bigcalm> davmor2: if I go crazy, I'll be able get Windows 8 from our company. But I hope not to use Windows much at all
[12:16] <davmor2> bigcalm: I'd still double check if the UEFI is secureboot enabled for windows 7 I think MS backported
[12:17] <bigcalm> davmor2: oh, I expect the machine to be locked down like that. But 13.04 should 'Just Work', right? :)
[12:17] <AlanBell> I don't know if 32 bit will work
[12:17] <davmor2> bigcalm: 64bit 12.10 or 64bit 13.04 should just work yes
[12:17] <bigcalm> Ug, the snow is starting to settle again
[12:18] <bigcalm> davmor2: I have no reason, that I know of, to bother with 32bit any more
[12:18] <AlanBell> I have *no* idea why bug 585940 is still not fixed
[12:19] <bigcalm> Is there a reason for anybody to use 32bit on a modern machine?
[12:19] <AlanBell> it isn't fixed
[12:19] <davmor2> bigcalm: AlanBell: I think 64bit will be the default for 13.04 possibly
[12:21] <AlanBell> well that might be what the last comment means
[12:21] <Dave2> I was wondering why my pocket kept vibrating when I was at lunch
[12:22] <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+bug/585940/comments/139 why don't the web team like bugs? Why is this a web team only problem? (it would affect the pressed disks)
[12:22] <AlanBell> I guess we will find out in April
[12:23] <davmor2> AlanBell: also I see from the steam client info that 32bit is still used quite a lot, but 64bit is definitely edging ahead :)
[12:23] <BigRedS> Nah, that last comment just means nobody's going to look at it
[12:23] <AlanBell> well yeah, it will be used quite a lot because we press 32 bit and recommend the 32 bit download
[12:24] <AlanBell> I would be astonished if anyone is running steam games on a processor that can't do 64 bit
[12:24] <davmor2> AlanBell: agreed
[12:24] <davmor2> AlanBell: and 64bit is the only secureboot enabled image too
[12:24] <BigRedS> I'm a bit bemused at the steam package being x86
[12:25] <ali1234> popey asking everyone to "cut them some slack" - ok, but that was 2.5 years ago :)
[12:25] <directhex> for steam, 64 bit is more popular than 32-bit by a 2:1 ratio
[12:25] <AlanBell> and now we have people downloading the 32 bit image, putting it on USB, finding it doesn't work on EFI and having to download 64 bit after figuring out why it doesn't work
[12:25] <directhex> davmor2, windows 7 and older don't support secure boot at all
[12:26] <directhex> davmor2, they don't support pure uefi boot either, you need CSM video bios support enabled to do a UEFI install of windows 7
[12:26] <directhex> vista sp1 x64 is needed for uefi
[12:27] <davmor2> directhex: I thought there was a back port for it I'm more than happy to be wrong about that though
[12:27] <davmor2> I hates the UEFI anyway
[12:27] <bigcalm> davmor2: why?
[12:28] <directhex> davmor2, you're mistaken. windows 8 is the only microsoft OS to support uefi secure boot.
[12:29] <davmor2> directhex: cool I hate windows 8 and secureboot so I can just bundle them together :)
[12:29] <ali1234> what about windows RT?
[12:30] <directhex> sigh
[12:30] <directhex> on x86-64
[12:30] <directhex> better?
[12:30] <ali1234> i dunno
[12:30] <ali1234> i asked because i don't know
[12:31] <directhex> windows rt and windows phone 8 also use uefi secure boot (on arm)
[12:31] <davmor2> bigcalm: It's a pain, because it is optimised for windows the minute that it detects a windows secureboot drive it starts booting from it but sometimes before the USB power is up meaning the pendrive isn't detected, when it is re-detected the pendrive is place below the HDD in boot order and so on
[12:31] <directhex> davmor2, that's uefi fast boot. turn that off.
[12:31] <BigRedS> that's an implementation issue rather than a uefi or secure boot issue per se, isn't it?
[12:32] <directhex> fast boot on my thinkpad boots ubuntu by default
[12:32] <davmor2> directhex: there is no option for it on this machine
[12:32] <BigRedS> I don't really mind jumping through one hoop when I want to install an OS in order that the other billion boots are quicker
[12:33] <directhex> on the thinkpad, under the "startup" menu, "boot mode" is set to "quick"
[12:33] <davmor2> directhex: but this was testing the UEFI on it's default setting to report the issues to the Ubuntu devs
[12:34] <directhex> it's nothing to do with usb receiving power, btw
[12:34] <davmor2> directhex: the only thing I have on the ideapad is OS Optimized Defaults [Win8 64bit]
[12:35] <davmor2> directhex: it was it was booting before the usbpendrive had start
[12:35] <davmor2> ed
[12:35] <directhex> of course. it's doing fast boot. that's intentional.
[12:35] <davmor2> directhex: but on this machine you can't turn off fastboot
[12:37] <davmor2> directhex: also if the pendrive powered up before the machine booted windows it did the right thing it was just trying to get it to power up twice on the trot in order to select it as primary boot the first time and then boot from it the second
[12:37] <davmor2> directhex: it's wasn't the best experience :(
[12:38] <davmor2> directhex: from DVD though it worked flawlessly
[12:38] <directhex> http://sdrv.ms/YcOrCN
[12:39] <directhex> davmor2, so when pressing the "select boot device" button with a usb drive plugged in, it won't let you pick the usb device?
[12:40] <ali1234> heh, remember when you had to solder a bigger capacitor on your amiga so that it would wait longer for hd to spin up? nothing ever changes
[12:40] <davmor2> directhex: there isn't a select boot device button I hit ever option I could fine F2 goes into the UEFI/Bios screen and that is it
[12:40] <ali1234> well except that you can't just solder on a bigger capacitor these days
[12:40] <davmor2> s/fine/find
[12:42] <directhex> davmor2, and the windows 8 boot manager? should let you do all kinds of things, e.g. boot arbitrary uefi apps from usb
[12:43] <directhex> http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-29-43-metablogapi/0407.1_2D002D00_Boot_2D00_Options_2D00_menu_5F00_0F869C74.jpg
[12:44] <davmor2> directhex: possibly but it's default is to boot windows 8 which it starts doing before you get chance to tell it to do anything else.  Never seen that page at all
[12:44] <directhex> davmor2, Settings, Change PC Settings, General, Advanced Start Up
[12:46] <davmor2> directhex: nice, I'll keep that in mind.  However that doesn't take away from the fact that UEFI is going to be a pain for a lot of novice users trying to install Ubuntu for the first time which is the issue we were trying to resolve by gaining data on it
[12:47] <directhex> davmor2, and i'm giving you data. every uefi implementation is different and badly behaved - the only thing which is the same for every single person is windows boot manager.
[12:49] <davmor2> directhex: indeed, and it is far easier then running the gauntlet with UEFI,  which then takes you back to UEFI sucks ;)
[12:49] <directhex> well, how about simply announcing "ubuntu doesn't support computers made after 2012" - that'd be the simplest way to avoid UEFI support issues
[12:49] <directhex> 2006 if you include (uefi-based) intel macs
[12:50] <directhex> around 2006ish if you include MSI's "clickbios" uefi, which they shipped for years before any os would boot on it
[12:50] <davmor2> directhex: hahaha, to be honest if all UEFI systems included a press F11 to change boot device no of this would be an issue
[12:51] <directhex> sadly, "boot device list" is a toggle which is off by default on here. and not available on most.
[12:54] <BigRedS> I really wish that UEFI secureboot talk at fosdem was actually about UEFI and not Monsanto...
[12:54] <directhex> BigRedS got it in one though - this stuff involves hoops to speed up boot. every second the system is waiting for user input rather than booting is a wasted second any time you *don't* want to change things
[12:54] <davmor2> directhex: indeed, it appears to me that the manufactures + MS are trying hard to make it stick to the OS version they install to make the user/support/ms's lives easier.  Which to be fair I think is a good idea, but then those users are never likely to be playing with the bios/uefi anyway.  Catch 22 I guess
[12:55] <directhex> davmor2, my thinkpad boots the first uefi application alphabetically. "ubuntu" is earlier than "Windows Boot Manager" :D
[12:55] <BigRedS> nah, it should be easy to break my own things, it should just be obvious that once I've done that it's my fault.
[12:56] <BigRedS> Didn't macs solve the waiting issue about a billion years ago by having you hold down the 'c' key or something if you didn't want it to just get into OSX as soon as possible?
[12:56] <davmor2> directhex: I'm assuming mine would if I had dual booted
[12:56] <Laney> oh come on snow
[12:56] <Laney> I have to cycle to town
[12:57] <directhex> BigRedS, apple's firmware engineers are less moronic than the average taiwanese odm
[12:57] <davmor2> bigcalm: ^ does all that answer your Why by the way :)
[12:57] <ali1234> it's funny because i had exactly this conversation with the meego devs
[12:58] <ali1234> them: "we can't have a boot menu because it would slow down the boot"
[12:58] <ali1234> me: "just check for a held key like grub does"
[12:59] <directhex> some keyboard controllers are a bit broken, and interpret "held key" at boot as "broken keyboard, disable keyboard support"
[12:59] <MartijnVdS> "But someone could be holding it accidentally"
[12:59] <BigRedS> directhex: yeah. I'm astonished at how much of a not-standard uefi has turned out to be
[13:00] <directhex> BigRedS, it doesn't matter if it's a standard. the people doing the implementation are the cheapest pay-per-hour coders in india, subcontracted by already cheap people in taiwan
[13:00] <davmor2> BigRedS: I'm not MS had something to do with it, they force ooxml on us and then don't follow their own standard ;)
[13:01] <davmor2> directhex: no to mention the fact that if one bios/UEFI is a cent cheaper they will switch
[13:02] <BigRedS> haha, yeah, but so far I've managed to avoid ooxml. Bioses are things I interact with daily and I'm really not looking forward to 'u'efi arriving...
[13:02] <directhex> am i the only person here who's been using efi fine for years?
[13:02] <directhex> as in since 2006?
[13:03] <BigRedS> nah, there's several macbooks in here aren't there/
[13:03] <davmor2> directhex: I have no issues with the system once the OS I want to use is on, it's just the getting on that is the issue :)
[13:05] <davmor2> directhex: to be fair I think it has some nice features over the bios especially if you get a asus mb with the pretty gfx UEFI
[13:09] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I had pretty GFX in my bios
[13:09] <MartijnVdS> but the bios was really showing its age, from an API-side
[13:09] <MartijnVdS> so _something_ had to be done.. I don't know if UEFI is the best :)
[13:10] <directhex> it's simple, guys
[13:10] <directhex> bios only works in 16-bit
[13:10] <directhex> we won't have 16-bit-capable processors for ever
[13:10] <directhex> efi began because itanium isn't 16-bit-capable
[13:10] <davmor2> directhex: :D
[13:11] <directhex> that's not me being a smartarse, that's the potted history. bios is 16 bit. bios boot is 16 bit.
[13:11] <directhex> amd64 processors can act as 64/32-bit, ot 16/32-bit
[13:11] <directhex> so they can do the 80186 boot
[13:12] <davmor2> directhex: Oh I agree,  I think it's just missing some minor things that would make it and Ideal replacement.
[13:14] <ali1234> UEFI missing things?
[13:15] <ali1234> people usually complain it is too complicated
[13:16] <Dave2> the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive
[13:17] <cliftonts> Hi all
[13:17] <cliftonts> Save me! I'm setting up machines for a company and it's driving me crazy!
[13:17] <cliftonts> I think a monkey designed their software suite
[13:22] <cliftonts> Well, you are a chatty lot!
[13:35] <BigRedS> you didn't really offer a means for us to save you
[13:36] <cliftonts> I'm not sure there is an easy way
[13:36] <cliftonts> win 7 with some dodgy custom package management system bolted on
[13:36] <cliftonts> I've been trying to install anti-virus for an hour now and it keeps failing
[13:37] <shauno> custom package management makes me cringe.  my work machine has been trying (and failing) to install some .net updates on the hour, every hour, for 3 weeks now
[13:40] <cliftonts> get this one, the download of anti virus kept failing and the pc needed a reboot anyway so I thought why not
[13:40] <ixxvil> hi
[13:40] <cliftonts> I now can't download the anti virus because I'm not logged in, logging in tells me not having anti virus is a violation of the terms of service and kicks me out!
[13:42] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[13:43] <cliftonts> I do sometimes wonder if Linux is a curse. It makes working with windows such a headache when you know there is a better way.
[13:44] <MartijnVdS> cliftonts: I don't mind Windows 7, as long as I get to install and manage it myself
[13:44] <MartijnVdS> oh and it should run on SSD so it's actually quick
[13:45] <MartijnVdS> (and for some things linux is way superior, like debugging network problems etc.)
[13:46] <cliftonts> This time it's not Linux as such, but the methodology behind it. I mean this would be much easier to have a ready made custom install cd
[13:46] <cliftonts> or perhaps all the software in a repository, I'll take tick, tick, tick apply!
[13:47] <cliftonts> And everything is locked down. The email system is so custom you'd never be able to use it on linux because it has been designed to lock the company in to it's supplier
[13:49] <madfish> exit
[13:53] <cliftonts> eh?
[14:09] <OliveiraBorges> anybody help me how to configure streaming live
[14:14] <ubuntubhoy> davmor2: if you are about are you able to offer any more advice mate ?
[14:14] <cliftonts> It's not really my speciality but perhaps it might help to give a little more info. What software you are trying to use, is this within your own network or over the net? etc
[14:14] <ubuntubhoy> got to a point where it is stuck on 'wireless is disabled by hardware switch'
[14:15] <ubuntubhoy> after installing the firmware and blacklisting what I think I have to
[14:15] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: rfkill list all
[14:16] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: then try sudo rfkill unblock all
[14:16] <cliftonts> Aah, so it's not the streaming that's the problem, but the network connection
[14:18] <ubuntubhoy> K
[14:20] <ubuntubhoy> davmor2: no change, but list states that it is hard block
[14:22] <ixxvil> totally stuck on this one
[14:22] <ixxvil> any ideas anyone
[14:22] <ixxvil> how do you password protect a dir with forced ssl
[14:22] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: have you tried hitting the button to enable wifi?
[14:22] <ixxvil> ive got ssl installed, ssl is running just fine
[14:22] <ixxvil> the certs are in place
[14:22] <ixxvil> but the dir just wont give me a login page
[14:23] <ixxvil> if i remove the ssl, it seems to work
[14:23] <ubuntubhoy> Dave2: yeah, it works fine in Win
[14:23] <ubuntubhoy> grr
[14:23] <jpds> ixxvil: I think you're confusing SSL with password auth.
[14:23] <ubuntubhoy> davmor2: ^^
[14:23] <ixxvil> jpds:  no im not
[14:23] <ixxvil> jpds: ive got a password auth htaccess file in place for the dir i want protected
[14:23] <ixxvil> it works without ssl
[14:24] <ixxvil> moment i turn ssl on it just doesnt,
[14:24] <BigRedS> apart from the SSL* directives what's different in your SSL vhost from your cleartext one?
[14:24] <ubuntubhoy> davmor2: Thanks for the help mate - gonna re-install and see if I get better from clean incase anything I have previously done has caused it
[14:25] <BigRedS> what do you get instead of the login page?
[14:25] <ixxvil> http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=39122
[14:25] <ixxvil> this is what i have in my htaccess file
[14:25] <BigRedS> and are you expecting a login page (i.e. some code you wrote that makes a webpage) or a login box (the browser's built-in pop-up box asking for a password)?
[14:25] <ixxvil> just the browser's popup
[14:26] <BigRedS> what do you have in your vhost config?
[14:26] <ixxvil> you mean default-ssl?
[14:26] <davmor2> ubuntubhoy: when you do select install 3rd party drivers and connect it to the internet via a cable if you can
[14:26] <BigRedS> only if you're hitting the default ssl vhost
[14:27] <ixxvil> where is this vhost config file?
[14:27] <BigRedS> when you use SSL do you get the page that's behind the auth, just without the auth, or do you go somewhere completely different?
[14:27] <ixxvil> i ve been googling and some people mention a vhost.conf
[14:27] <ixxvil> there isnt one here, but i do have in etc/apache2/sites-available/default-ssl
[14:27] <BigRedS> normally you'll have a file in /etc/apache2/sites-available that defines your vhost and you will have enabled it with a2ensite
[14:27] <BigRedS> you might have just edited the defaults
[14:28] <ixxvil> yes sites-available
[14:28] <BigRedS> but exactly how you did it isn't that important. What is important is that the SSL vhost is the same as the non-SSL one
[14:28] <BigRedS> it sounds like you've got different DocumentRoots, depending on what it is that you *do* see on the SSL  connection
[14:29] <BigRedS> (obviously the SSL vhost will have the SSL* directives (SSLCertificateFile, SSLCertificateKeyFile etc.) different, but the rest should be the same
[14:29] <ixxvil> if im using ssl
[14:29] <ixxvil> the big lock and the cert is up there
[14:29] <ixxvil> ssl works
[14:29] <ixxvil> the popup page doesnt come up
[14:29] <BigRedS> what does come up?
[14:29] <BigRedS> the page you're trying to protect?
[14:29] <BigRedS> some other page?
[14:29] <ixxvil> the directory is wide open, it doesnt ask for a usernmae or pass
[14:29] <ixxvil> no
[14:29] <ixxvil> it opens the directory... its not paswd protected
[14:29] <BigRedS> but the directory you want to hide, or a different one?
[14:30] <ixxvil> the one i want to hide
[14:30] <BigRedS> okay, so they're serving from the same place. Have you any AllowOverride directives in either vhost?
[14:30] <ixxvil> i dont know what this vhost
[14:30] <ixxvil> do you mean default-ssl?
[14:31] <BigRedS> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/vhosts/
[14:31] <BigRedS> vhost is a feature of apache, which that page sort-of explains at the top
[14:31] <BigRedS> default-ssl is a file. It by default contains a single vhost definition
[14:32] <ixxvil> thats all good to know
[14:32] <ixxvil> what should i be look at and where?
[14:32] <ixxvil> looking at
[14:33] <ixxvil> default-ssl has a directive
[14:33] <ixxvil> for var/www
[14:33] <BigRedS> are you looking to just get this working, or use this to learn about apache?
[14:33] <ixxvil> to get it working
[14:33] <BigRedS> cool, post your default-ssl config on pastebin and I'll see if I can see what's broken :)
[14:34] <ixxvil> ok cool
[14:34] <ixxvil> thanks
[14:35] <BigRedS> ah, also the normal 'default' one, unless you created another file for the cleartext vhost
[14:35] <ixxvil> the default one or the default-ssl
[14:36] <BigRedS> both
[14:36] <ixxvil> default-ssl has the modified stuff
[14:36] <ixxvil> about the ca and the key etc
[14:37] <BigRedS> yeah, those're just paths to the files, though, aren't they?
[14:37] <BigRedS> If you want to edit those lines out or something go for it ; I don't need to know what they've got
[14:38] <ixxvil> its been edited and it's been working
[14:38] <ixxvil> i didnt change anything else
[14:40] <BigRedS> Right. Basically, when you hit your server on port 443 Apache serves up pages according to what's in default-ssl, and so does it over SSL. When you hit it on port 80 it follows whats in default.
[14:40] <BigRedS> Some difference between the two is causing it to not honour your auth
[14:41] <BigRedS> likely, -ssl is missing an AllowOverride (though that should raise an error), pointing at the wrong dir (though you've already said it isn't) or something that I've not yet thought of
[14:41] <BigRedS> it's hard to guess what else without looking at your actual config
[14:41] <ubuntubhoy> davmor2: working a treat now - cheers for the help.
[14:42] <ixxvil> http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=39123
[14:42] <ixxvil> thats default-ssl
[14:43] <ixxvil> well
[14:43] <ixxvil> i switched it from 80 to 443
[14:43] <ixxvil> and it didnt work either
[14:43] <ixxvil> besides i should've been using 443 there, cause i want it to go through ssl first and then to the login page
[14:43] <BigRedS> default-ssl should never have been :80
[14:43] <BigRedS> go though ssl first?
[14:44] <jpds> BigRedS: Make sure the auth is behind SSL.
[14:44] <ixxvil> not sure where it says 80 except in my htaccess file
[14:44] <ixxvil> jpds: yeah thats what ive been reading
[14:44] <ixxvil> the ssl should kick in first or something
[14:44] <BigRedS> the browser opens an SSL tunnel and then sends http down it
[14:45] <BigRedS> when using https
[14:45] <BigRedS> the directory you wish to protect, is that in /var/www?
[14:45] <ixxvil> yes
[14:45] <ixxvil> var/www/dir
[14:46] <BigRedS> The "AllowOverride None" in "<Directory /var/www/>" probably isn't helping
[14:46] <BigRedS> I think you want AllowOverride AuthConfig
[14:48] <BigRedS> Oh yeah, I spoke to your hr person at uds :)
[14:48] <BigRedS> jpds ^
[14:48] <BigRedS> we asked for you back :)
[14:48] <ixxvil> o changed it
[14:48] <ixxvil> restarted apache
[14:48] <ixxvil> yeah still nothing
[14:48] <BigRedS> ixxvil: did it help?>
[14:48] <ixxvil> no login page
[14:49] <Azelphur> https://twitter.com/Azelphur/status/301704335052660737 ah, templating.
[14:49] <jpds> BigRedS: Heh. :)
[14:49] <ixxvil> double checked
[14:50] <ixxvil> not getting it
[14:50] <BigRedS> jpds: she said no :(
[14:50] <BigRedS> ixxvil: so it's just serving the index of that /var/www/dir?
[14:50] <jpds> BigRedS: In another circumstance "I spoke to your HR person" would set a different tone.
[14:50] <jpds> BigRedS: I can't imagine why.
[14:50] <BigRedS> hahaha
[14:50] <BigRedS> I was a tad drunk on canonical-funded wine :)
[14:50] <ixxvil> yeah
[14:51] <czajkowski> BigRedS: such a lush :p
[14:51] <ixxvil> its just showing the same dir with 1 file in it
[14:51] <czajkowski> anyone coming to http://hackntalk.eventbrite.com/  we could have  a bug jam there during some of the day if we had interested people
[14:51] <BigRedS> ixxvil: does the dir you're after have only one file in it? It might be best to see the default config (the cleartext vhost) since that one is doing what you want it to
[14:51] <BigRedS> isn't it?
[14:51] <BigRedS> czajkowski: I should be there
[14:51] <czajkowski> yay
[14:52] <ixxvil> the default config?
[14:52] <czajkowski> now we just need a laney to keep us entertained and it'll be like the last one
[14:52] <ixxvil> what do you mean
[14:52] <Laney> WOT
[14:52] <ixxvil> the dir im after has only 1 file in it because i put only 1 file there
[14:52] <BigRedS> it's the first weekend after I move to London, and I can't think what would've gone wrong enough for me to not be able to get there
[14:52] <BigRedS> ixxvil: cool. Just checking you're seeing all the files in the dir
[14:52] <Laney> interesting
[14:52] <ixxvil> ye
[14:52] <Laney> i will probably be in london the day after that
[14:52] <ixxvil> so did a few others
[14:52] <BigRedS> ixxvil: yeah, the config for the non-ssl vhost. /etc/apache2/sites-available/default
[14:53] <ixxvil> default looks like default, it barely has anything but a few directives but i can paste it
[14:53] <BigRedS> czajkowski: Nah, I'm looking forward to spending the day laughing at you getting frustrated by computers
[14:53] <czajkowski> BigRedS: shall be on my best behaviour
[14:53] <jpds> BigRedS: So, everyday?
[14:53] <czajkowski> there are 38 people signed up for this
[14:53] <czajkowski> I've room for 70
[14:53] <BigRedS> ixxvil: yeah, please. I don't have a ubuntu server handy and it's probably different from Debian by enough to be annoying :)
[14:53] <BigRedS> czajkowski: pft. I bet that'll change
[14:54] <czajkowski> BigRedS: I dont want numbers to drop so no :)
[14:54] <BigRedS> hahaha
[14:54] <BigRedS> czajkowski: bill it as a feature!
[14:54] <ixxvil> http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=39124
[14:54] <czajkowski> bah
[14:55] <BigRedS> ixxvil: ta! hang on a mo!
[14:55] <Azelphur> I just realised, I broke every single aspect of TalkTalk, at every single step of the way
[14:55] <Azelphur> dam me and my continual breaking of things :(
[14:56] <czajkowski> Azelphur: tis ok I break things too
[14:56] <czajkowski> badly usually
[14:56] <czajkowski> :/
[14:56] <Azelphur> lol
[14:56] <czajkowski> davmor2: mocks me when I do
[14:56] <czajkowski> I'll get him on your larting case
[14:56] <Azelphur> czajkowski: but I broke their signup system, line allocation, phone system, and newsletter system
[14:56] <Azelphur> I don't think there's anything else to break
[14:56] <Azelphur> xD
[14:57] <czajkowski> you say this
[14:58] <czajkowski> that's surely a challenge
[14:58] <davmor2> czajkowski: No I mock you because all you do is use it, everyone else tries to break it and can't :P
[14:58] <BigRedS> ixxvil: apart from "AllowOverride All" vs "AllowOverride None" I can't see anything
[14:58] <BigRedS> which is annoying. I get this far too frequently with apache :(
[14:58] <czajkowski> davmor2: I'm a good test case
[14:59] <BigRedS> and, if you're now at least allowing AuthConfig to be overridden that shouldn't be an issue
[14:59] <davmor2> czajkowski: No you're not because nobody else can reproduce it :P
[14:59] <BigRedS> jpds: every day?
[14:59] <ixxvil> well from google
[14:59] <ixxvil> some of them say to modify the vhosts conf
[14:59] <jpds> BigRedS: "getting frustrated by computers".
[14:59] <ixxvil> and adding a directive entry
[14:59] <BigRedS> ixxvil: that sounds centosy
[15:00] <BigRedS> this sites-enabled thing is a debianism
[15:00] <BigRedS> well, or just old. Apache 1.x was all about /etc/apache/vhosts.conf
[15:00] <ixxvil> wait
[15:00] <BigRedS> really, I'd get the chapter on webservers out of a "how to do ubuntu servers" book
[15:00] <ixxvil> you want me to change default-ssl Allow to Auth
[15:00] <BigRedS> yeah
[15:00] <ixxvil> and then in default what?
[15:00] <BigRedS> jpds: ah! Yeah, so I hear. I only get to see it infrequently
[15:00] <BigRedS> but it's among my favourite spectacles
[15:00] <ixxvil> with authconfig nothing happened
[15:01] <ixxvil> is there anything i need to change in /default?
[15:01] <BigRedS> come on now, *something* happened :)
[15:01] <OliveiraBorges> how to i make a streaming server live with webcam using linux server like that (my pc-windows-   ->  linux server  -> customers)
[15:01] <BigRedS> nah, default's working :)
[15:02] <ixxvil> what about the haccess file?
[15:02] <ixxvil> that looks right?
[15:02] <ixxvil> i suspect it's that htaccess file
[15:02] <ixxvil> maybe it needs to go into the web root dir? var/www?
[15:02] <BigRedS> where is it now?
[15:02] <ixxvil> in the dir i want to protect
[15:03] <BigRedS> yeah, .htaccess looked right I think. What was the url to that again?
[15:03] <BigRedS> no, that's fine
[15:03] <ixxvil> http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=39123
[15:03] <BigRedS> it affects the directory it's in and any subdirs, so that's the right place for it
[15:03] <ixxvil> ye but the ssl part might have to go into var/www?
[15:04] <ixxvil> most of google thats what they're doing, adding the ssl part as a directive
[15:04] <BigRedS> oh yeah, I've never seen that SSL directive before
[15:04] <BigRedS> I remember now
[15:04] <BigRedS> what happens if you take that out, but visit the site via SSL?
[15:04] <ixxvil> let me try
[15:05] <ixxvil> nothing
[15:05] <BigRedS> I bet what's happening isn't "nothing"
[15:06] <ixxvil> well there isnt a auth page
[15:06] <ixxvil> after removing the ssl part
[15:06] <BigRedS> ah, so quite a lot happens. It lets you view the contents of the directory
[15:06] <BigRedS> hm, and this is with https:// at teh beginning of the url?
[15:06] <ixxvil> of course
[15:06] <BigRedS> cool. Just checking :)
[15:07] <BigRedS> yeah, I'm stumped
[15:07] <ixxvil> Apache/2.2.22 (Ubuntu) Server at yadayada.com Port 443
[15:07] <ixxvil> thats from the bototm of that dir
[15:07] <ixxvil> so ssl is working
[15:07] <BigRedS> yeah
[15:08] <ixxvil> oh after removing the ssl
[15:08] <ixxvil> i might need to restart apache i guess?
[15:08] <BigRedS> not in the .htaccess file
[15:08] <BigRedS> well, sometimes you do, but you shouldn't need to
[15:09] <ixxvil> yeah no difference
[15:20]  * popey pokes xnox
[15:20]  * xnox pokes popey
[15:20] <popey> getting core installer popup when I plug my iphone in! :D
[15:20] <popey> optimistic
[15:20] <xnox> popey: awesome. and the upgrade that fixes that got superseeded.
[15:21] <popey> \o/
[15:21]  * xnox should re-upload a fix.
[15:21]  * popey unpokes
[15:22] <xnox> popey: in the mean time replace /etc/init/usb-creator-gtk.conf with http://paste.ubuntu.com/1644310/
[15:23] <xnox> popey: and let me know if that fixes it for you.
[15:23]  * xnox will do an upload of that shortly
[15:23]  * xnox unpokes
[15:23] <popey> thanks!
[15:33]  * mungbean_ finds his mod has improved since putting slothstranaut on his picture frame on his desk
[15:36] <ixxvil> BigRedS: apache folks say to use a directory block
[15:36] <ixxvil> its preffered
[15:36] <ixxvil> etc etc
[15:44] <BigRedS> ixxvil: for what?
[15:44] <BigRedS> auth?
[15:56] <ixxvil> BigRedS: yeah
[15:57] <BigRedS> Ah. It shouldn't make any difference functionally, but I guess it's worth a pop. That'll at least get around any AllowOverride funny business
[15:57] <ixxvil> yeha buti dunno how
[15:57] <ixxvil> and last time i messed with it it broke my vhost file
[15:58] <ixxvil> 19:28 < thumbs> ixxvil: you don't have HTTP auth directives in your :443 vhost.
[15:58] <ixxvil> you need to place the auth directives in the appropriate <Directory> block in your vhost.
[15:58] <ixxvil> any idea how?
[15:58] <ixxvil>  http://wiki.apache.org/httpd/PasswordBasicAuth basicall this
[15:58] <BigRedS> copy what's in the vhost file into a <directory> block
[15:59] <BigRedS> you can give apache directives that only apply to files and directories in a directory
[15:59] <BigRedS> you've already got a set there for /var/www
[15:59] <BigRedS> you could make another <Directory /var/www/whatever> block, and put the content of your htaccess into it
[15:59] <ixxvil> but they say i dont need htaccess
[15:59] <ixxvil> if i have a directory block
[15:59] <BigRedS> well, not if you do it this way
[15:59] <ixxvil> and it seems htaccess slows performance
[16:00] <ixxvil> ok
[16:00] <BigRedS> hah, yeah arguably it does
[16:00] <BigRedS> functionally, though, the two should be identical
[16:00] <BigRedS> a .htaccess file is basically a <directory> block for the dir its in
[16:00] <BigRedS> but it needs to be allowed to override stuff
[16:01] <BigRedS> that's what the AllowOverride directive does - sets what .htaccess files are allowed to change
[16:01] <ixxvil> so under directory var wwwi make another one?
[16:01] <BigRedS> yeah
[16:03]  * popey wonders if AlanBell's printer has arrived
[16:06] <ixxvil> andhttp://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=39125
[16:06] <ixxvil> so like that
[16:06] <ixxvil> http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=39125
[16:07] <ixxvil> ?
[16:08] <ixxvil> is that right?
[16:12] <ali1234> why does the topic say: ☃ ❄ ❅ ☃ ❆ ❇ ♿
[16:14] <BigRedS> ixxvil: looks right
[16:14] <ali1234> it looks like two snowmen pelting a disabled person with snowballs
[16:15] <BigRedS> ixxvil: though weren't you going to put teh content of the .htaccess in that directory block?
[16:15] <ixxvil> like what
[16:15] <BigRedS> Oh. My terminal can now do unicode
[16:15] <ixxvil> based in the link
[16:15] <BigRedS> authtype basic; authname whatever; authuserfile /etc/apache2/passwd etc.
[16:16] <ixxvil> it says the htaccess file goes in the dir i want to protect
[16:16] <BigRedS> okay, cool
[16:16] <BigRedS> yeah, that's fine, too :)
[16:16] <ixxvil> oh
[16:16] <ixxvil> it says i have to make a directory block for the htaccess too?
[16:16] <BigRedS> huh?
[16:16] <BigRedS> what's 'it' here?
[16:17] <ixxvil> ohn it's two recipes
[16:17] <ixxvil> one using the htacccess stuff as a directory block
[16:17] <ixxvil> or
[16:18] <ixxvil> using the htaccess file in the dir i want protected + a separate directory block in the vhost
[16:18] <BigRedS> yeah. which one are you doing?
[16:18] <ixxvil> errored
[16:18] <ixxvil> pache2: Syntax error on line 237 of /etc/apache2/apache2.conf: Syntax error on line 16 of /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/000-default-ssl: Expected </VirtualHost> but saw </Directory>
[16:19] <ixxvil> o fixed
[16:19] <ixxvil> i had an extra </Directory>
[16:22] <ixxvil> im getting the auth page!
[16:22] <ixxvil> but its not accepting the password
[16:23] <BigRedS> oh, cool
[16:24] <BigRedS> Is it saying the right thing? Your browser will say something like "The page at whatever says: XXXX" where XXXX is what comes after AuthName
[16:24] <BigRedS> in your config
[16:24] <ixxvil> Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@localhost and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
[16:25] <ixxvil> The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
[16:26] <ixxvil> [Wed Feb 13 08:22:25 2013] [error] [client <IP_ADDRESS>] (2)No such file or directory: Could not open password file: /etc/ap$
[16:26] <ixxvil> thats /etc/apache/passwords?
[16:26] <ixxvil> should it be .htpasswd?
[16:30] <ixxvil> IT WORKS
[16:30] <ixxvil> i mispelt etc/apache2/password
[16:30] <ixxvil> whene it was passwords
[16:31] <ixxvil> <- GENIUSSSSS
[16:33] <BigRedS> aha, cool
[16:33] <BigRedS> I've no idea why that worked
[16:33] <BigRedS> but it did, and sometimes apache is like that
[16:33] <ixxvil> they say it has to go in the directory block for 443 to pick up or some shit
[16:37] <ixxvil> alright thanks BigRedS
[16:37] <ixxvil> :D
[16:37] <ixxvil> later
[16:38] <BigRedS> haha, I don't think I did anything, but I'll take the credit :)
[16:38] <Azelphur> wtf
[16:38] <Azelphur> talktalk are putting me on hold for 45 minutes
[16:39] <Azelphur> "May I please put you on hold for 45 minutes while I check the line"
[16:39] <Azelphur> I'm not even joking right now
[16:40] <penguin42> impressive
[16:41] <Azelphur> yea, I'm pretty pissed at them, they made me wait 3 months for an engineer to come out and connect me, only to not send the engineer
[16:41] <Azelphur> then they registered it as a fault on the line and sent an engineer to repair it
[16:41] <Azelphur> and the engineer says there's nothing for me to repair because they didn't send an engineer out to fit it, and that it's a common problem with talktalk (And only talktalk) that they do to avoid paying for a line to be fitted.
[16:42] <shauno> that 45 minutes is usually because callcenters are run by accountants
[16:42] <Azelphur> fun
[16:43] <shauno> they can't spend 45 minutes on market as not ready to take a call, because some beancounter will be measuring it.  so if they need to spend 45 minutes on an issue, it's easier to keep you on the phone.  else they take a beancounter hit, or the phone rings again
[16:43] <shauno> it's not because they actually need you on the phone :/
[16:43] <shauno> er, marked, not market.  love when typos make real words.
[16:44] <BigRedS> ah, that makes more sense with that correction :)
[16:45] <Myrtti> they wanted to move us to residential plan and to pay 15pounds a month instead of 7. "but you get 6 months for free" doh
[16:45] <shauno> I swear I don't speak english anymore.  it started out as "marked not ready" in my head, and gained some spare words in the translation
[16:47] <Azelphur> fun, think I might have made some progress after getting put through to a manager
[16:48] <Azelphur> basically they were supposed to send someone out to fit my line, didn't, and then they sent an engineer out to repair it to try and avoid costs, engineer specifically told me it's a common thing and only happens with talktalk
[16:49] <MartijnVdS> Weird
[16:49] <shauno> I wonder if repairs get billed to someone else (eg BT)
[16:50] <Azelphur> that's what the openreach guy said
[16:50] <Azelphur> repairs are BT, new lines are TalkTalk
[16:50] <Azelphur> so they try and send them out on repairs when people have no lines to get them to fit lines
[16:50] <shauno> right.  the connection is their business, but if BT own the lines, maintaining them is theirs.  so they're playing a game to have someone else pick up the tab.  awkward
[16:51] <Azelphur> yep, not happy.
[16:51] <penguin42> the intention of splitting Openreach off from BT was to stop BT having the advantage in being able to get lines done/fixed quickly; the downside is it's now just as bad for everyone
[16:51] <shauno> it's quite clever, but what was the point of waiting months for the install if they had no intention of showing?
[16:51] <shauno> surely they could schedule imaginary appointments any time they liked
[16:52] <Azelphur> shauno: indeed, annoying as fuck xD
[16:53] <shauno> I'm surprised to say I'm quite happy with UPC (nee NTL).  ordered a new install, got a text message by the end of the day telling me they'd be between 10-11am the next day.  they showed up when they send they would, and I have 100meg by lunch
[16:53] <MartijnVdS> ♥ Reggefiber ;)
[16:53] <MartijnVdS> precioussss 100/100
[16:54] <shauno> 100/10, but it does me fine
[16:54] <MartijnVdS> I need to start producing videos now I have the bandwidth to upload them :)
[16:56] <shauno> self-install is fantastic though.  they've finally admitted that it's not that difficult, and DPD have better service than a truck roll
[16:56] <MartijnVdS> Officially, I had to wait for someone to come around and install it
[16:56] <MartijnVdS> but I work for my ISP, and my colleagues told me it's easy to do.. so I did it myself :)
[16:58] <penguin42> does anyone know on T-mobile PAYG hth you figure out the day on which your internet topup ends?
[16:58] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: BA or AL to 150?
[16:58] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: http://support.t-mobile.co.uk/help-and-support/index?page=html&cat=CONTACTUS
[16:59] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: It just tells me I've got it, not the last day of it
[16:59] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: so call them, ask for a human
[16:59] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: I doubt I'll get any further to be honest
[17:00] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: ask their twitter team, they'll be able to tell you where to look :)
[17:00] <MartijnVdS> angry tweets = public = fix nao
[17:00] <penguin42> haha possibly
[17:01] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: The best way to get a real problem fixed (besides contacting one of the "consumer watchdog" TV programs) is tweeting about it, and mentioning their "Web care" account
[17:02]  * penguin42 really should sign up for a twitter account I guess
[17:16] <jacobw> hi, can i use an external node classifer only for a particular environment?
[17:16] <jacobw> wrong channel
[17:19] <Azelphur> giving TalkTalk a tongue lashing on their forums, http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=955739#post955739 xD
[17:32] <penguin42> Azelphur: Ask for references for Openreach job numbers/booking numbers (not sure what their exact terms are)
[17:32] <penguin42> Azelphur: The problem with all this stuff is that since both sides are equally hopeless it's almost impossible to figure out who is screwing it up
[17:32] <Azelphur> indeed \o/
[17:33] <Azelphur> at least I can publicly humiliate them.
[17:33] <penguin42> Azelphur: There are companies like Andrews & Arnold who make it their business to sort out Openreach screwups - but they do cost a bit
[17:34] <Azelphur> indeed
[17:34] <Azelphur> the openreach engineer also said I might not even be able to get a connection because the pole is full
[17:36] <penguin42> Azelphur: they normally have ways, but it'll take a bit of bitching
[17:36] <Azelphur> yea
[17:36] <Azelphur> I shall continue to bitch at increasing levels until they do something about it
[17:36] <penguin42> Azelphur: I'd get the line provisioned via BT rather than talktalk
[17:37] <Azelphur> I'm in contract with talktalk unfortunately
[17:37] <penguin42> but they've failed to fulfil?
[17:37]  * Azelphur shrugs
[17:38] <penguin42> Azelphur: I'd also ask Ofcom about it
[17:38] <Azelphur> if it goes on much longer I may cancel and switch ISP
[17:38] <Azelphur> will see what they get back to me with in 48 hours about getting me connected
[17:47] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: you seem to have _a_ connection to the interwebs
[17:47] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: yea, my brother lives next door, chucked 30m of outdoor grade ethernet out the window.
[17:47] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: 😎
[17:47] <Azelphur> xD
[17:48] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: nah xD =~ 😝
[17:48] <MartijnVdS> or 😣
[17:48] <Azelphur> hehe, I need to get an addon for that
[17:48] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: get the "symbola" font from here: http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/
[17:48] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: or install the "Droid" font family
[17:49] <Azelphur> I have the font :p
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> gucharmap -> "Emoticons" blcok
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> block*
[17:49] <Azelphur> I assume you have something that does xD -> 😝
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> I do not.
[17:49] <Azelphur> or are you just doing lots of clicking?
[17:49] <Azelphur> oh
[17:50] <MartijnVdS> I look at the gucharmap thing, then copy/paste single characters
[17:50] <Azelphur> :P
[18:02] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: popey has the scripts
[18:03] <Azelphur> probably not for pidgin though, pidgin needs a python API :(
[18:07] <bigcalm> Boo!
[18:49] <ali1234> Azelphur: you cannot publicly humiliate talktalk any worse than they already have been. they are total rubbish
[18:50] <Azelphur> xD
[18:54] <penguin42> not unless they started delivering you horse burgers
[18:58] <Azelphur> lol
[18:58] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: hors d'oeuvres?
[19:04] <shauno> I found an article today, sweden asking questions about 9,000 missing horses .. per year.  made me chuckle
[19:04] <penguin42> haha
[19:05] <shauno> "Sweden's 9,000 missing horses baffle experts"  http://www.thelocal.se/46170/20130213/
[19:06] <ali1234> looooool really?
[19:06] <shauno> just seemed like a very awkward moment to be the guy in the corner going "erm, has anyone seen my horse?"
[19:06] <shauno> (although they are hypothetical horses, it's just comparing the expected life span / death rate vs the number of licenses issued to bury them)
[19:07] <ali1234> does it really take an expert here to put 2 and 2 together?
[19:08] <ali1234> DAE search google news for "over 9000" periodically?
[19:08] <MartijnVdS> .. noooo?
[19:09] <shauno> the whole thing's pretty barmy though.  the issue isn't really that they're horses.  it's that if they'd actually been reared for human consumption (free of various medications that don't sit well with humans), they'd be worth more than the meat they're filling
[19:11] <ali1234> yeah it does seem a bit suspicious that an animal which is bred for working is going cheaper than an animal bred specicially to efficiently produce meat
[19:12] <shauno> it's only cheaper than beef if it's "mystery meat".  if it's actually fit for consumption, it wouldn't be economical to pad beef with it
[19:12] <ali1234> i bought some really cheap steaks in lidl once and i'm sure they were not beef. even at the time they seemed a bit weird.
[19:12] <ali1234> still ate them though.
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> everything I've ever eaten from lidl was "a bit weird"
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> it never tastes as it should
[19:13] <shauno> this is a valid point
[19:13] <ali1234> some of their stuff is great
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: their wine, after a few bottles?
[19:13] <ali1234> the steaks were ok, they just didn't taste like beef.
[19:13] <ali1234> they didn't kill me or anything :)
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> but they made you into the man you are today!
[19:14] <ali1234> partially
[19:14] <shauno> I guess it does mean they've flat-out proven that all the tracability steps they put in after the whole mad cow mess, only work on paper
[19:15] <ali1234> best lidl food item is their frozen pizzas which are like the high end super market luxury ones, but at the "value range" price
[19:15] <shauno> they can't claim they can prove where the cow came from, if they can't prove it's a cow
[19:15] <ali1234> yeah, totally
[19:16] <ali1234> it's extra ironic that french factories are involved after they made all that stink over british meat
[19:19] <shauno> we still get side effects of that here.  most the meat in my fridge contains at least 3 different claims that it's entirely sourced, handled and tracable within ireland
[19:19] <shauno> I'm sure it won't be long until they add "we promise it's beef" logos to the mess
[19:20] <AlanBell> popey: nope, not arrived yet
[19:22] <AlanBell> ali1234: um, interesting point about the topic
[19:26] <bigcalm> Cor
[19:26] <bigcalm> A weekend no less!
[19:26] <AlanBell> well yeah, lets try that
[19:27]  * bigcalm adds it to his calendar
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: at work we came up with "HAL 9001: It's Over 9000!"
[19:39] <AlanBell> it goes to 9001 \o/ that is one better than 9000
[19:39] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: except it takes 3 episodes to get there
[20:30] <Myrtti> popey: http://offbeathome.com/2013/02/bringing-home-baby-reptile-edition-a-guide-to-owning-your-first-reptile
[20:51] <directhex> dead monitor /o\
[20:55] <popey> oh golly
[20:55] <popey> czajkowski: decided to have butter + lemon + sugar
[20:55] <popey> nom
[20:56] <popey> directhex: didnt you just buy one?
[20:56] <directhex> popey, for the wife
[20:56] <popey> ah
[20:57] <czajkowski> popey: tis good stuff :)
[21:00] <popey> was!
[21:00] <czajkowski> now if we could just get you liking the bacon and syrup it'd be all good
[21:09] <Daviey> bacon and syrup ?!
[21:09] <Daviey> get a grip.
[21:09] <czajkowski> maple syrup
[21:10] <Daviey> czajkowski: take a long hard look at what you just said.
[21:30] <bigcalm> Maple syrup is wonderful. Not sure about having it with bacon though
[21:38] <popey> bacon and syrup is just flat out wrong
[21:39] <bigcalm> I'm glad that there is some sanity in here
[21:39] <Azelphur> I've tried fish fingers and custard
[21:39] <Azelphur> xD
[21:39] <bigcalm> Azelphur: and?
[21:39] <Azelphur> it was good.
[21:39] <shauno> bacon and maple syrup actually works.  sausages, less so.
[21:39] <Azelphur> 10/10 would eat again.
[21:39] <Azelphur> xD
[21:40] <bigcalm> Hehe
[21:43] <czajkowski> custard and fig rolls in a microwave for 1 min = yummyness
[21:51] <ali1234> Azelphur: you mean breaded fish fillets in white sauce with vanilla essence
[21:51] <Azelphur> aka fish fingers and custard, yea
[21:52] <ali1234> only the vanilla is really "wrong" but vanilla goes with everything
[22:06] <Elysium> Any mods in here?
[22:07] <popey> Elysium: wassup?
[22:07] <madfish> bah...work have enabled a draconian firewall policy. No direct ssh or tunneling. Now using gateone on my vps but remarkably useable
[22:08] <popey> madfish: ssh on port 443?
[22:08] <Elysium> I need to reset my nickserv password mate, ive installed ubuntu alongside windows, my password works fine on Windows mIRC, come on XChat on Linux and apparently it's invalid.
[22:09] <popey> ah, that sounds like a job for #freenode
[22:09] <madfish> popey: tried and getting errors. I've tried corkscrew and even ip over dns as a last resort. No dice. I only need to admin a couple of VPS's
[22:10] <Elysium> whos #freenode?
[22:10] <Elysium> lol
[22:10] <popey> its a channel
[22:10] <popey>  /join #freenode
[22:11] <popey> madfish: is it an NTLM windows authenticating proxy?
[22:11] <Elysium>  /join #freenode
[22:11] <Azelphur> Elysium: without the space at the beginning ;)
[22:11] <popey> without the space in front
[22:11] <Elysium> get there in the end ;)
[22:11] <Azelphur> took a screenshot of my desktop at the moment for showing off purposes, https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2013/Jan/2013-02-13-220306_10240x1440_scrot.png
[22:11] <Azelphur> those of you without widescreen monitors, I pity you. :p
[22:12] <shauno> good lord.  someone really needs to teach you alt+tab.  I see what you're trying to do, and it's been solved years ago
[22:13] <dwatkins> I used to have terminals arranged like that, then I discovered Screen ;)
[22:13] <Azelphur> haha
[22:14] <Azelphur> don't hate my non-tabbing ways.
[22:15] <directhex> i can't taste a goddamn thing
[22:17] <dwatkins> eat an onion
[22:17] <madfish> popey: I think so. I've tracked down the proxy IP and port but get an ISA proxy error in putty for windows
[22:17] <popey> madfish: there's a python based local proxy you can run which can do ntlm
[22:17] <popey> http://ntlmaps.sourceforge.net/
[22:20] <madfish> popey: ooh. Looks promising. Using gateone (not affiliated to it!) has been rather good as an emergency. html5/websockets goodness :) Might do a nodejs implementation