[01:35] <lifeless> kiko-zzz: looks ok to me
[05:06] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad: [trivial]  Add small script to rebuild data in indexes on an online database (r2995: Stuart Bishop)
[08:37] <mick_linux> hi everyone
[08:37] <mick_linux> i'm just creating a team and i was wondering about the Contact Email Address
[08:37] <mick_linux> my team is already subscribed to a mailinglist
[08:38] <mick_linux> can i have them use the list to get email notifications?
[10:00] <mantiena-baltix> hi all
[10:00] <mantiena-baltix> mick_home, I think yes, you can use any email adress
[10:04] <SteveA_> hi
[10:07] <mick_home> under email, i put the mailinglist
[10:07] <mick_home> mantiena-baltix, i was wondering if that is ok
[10:29] <mantiena-baltix> SteveA, labas rytas ;)
[10:45] <mantiena-baltix> SteveA, it seems launchpad still has many problems :( I can't add Baltix milestone, when I go to http://launchpad.net/distros/baltix/+addmilestone I get an error about permissions :(
[11:57] <\sh> guys, I wanted to say: Great Job, and thanks for your hard work :) of merging bugzilla to malone :)
[12:40] <kiko-zzz> thanks \sh
[12:40] <kiko> mantiena-baltix, I'll fix that today.. I meant to but forgot.
[12:47] <jordi> kiko: hey
[12:47] <kiko> hey jordi man
[12:47] <jordi> kiko: what about the +translations patch?
[12:47] <jordi> kiko: we need to get that merged or discussed or whatever
[12:47] <kiko> you know that your rosetta docs is one of the only emails in my inbox?
[12:47] <kiko> the one I wrote at ubz?
[12:47] <kiko> I have it stashed away in a branch here
[12:47] <kiko> this week I can land it
[12:48] <jordi> what do you mean with my rosetta docs mnail?
[12:48] <jordi> ok
[12:48] <jordi> because the current page is fucked up
[12:49] <jordi> for example, bum has templates in distro and product, but +translations only shows distro
[12:49] <kiko> oh
[12:49] <kiko> my patch fixes that too?
[12:49] <jordi> 'I can't remember
[12:49] <jordi> I suspect not though :)
[12:50] <kiko> me neither
[12:50] <kiko> but I like the sound of that
[12:50] <jordi> heh
[12:50] <matsubara> good morning!
[12:51] <jordi> hmm
[12:51] <jordi> do you have a lp install with current data, kiko?
[12:51] <kiko> with production data? not me
[12:51] <jordi> hm
[12:51] <jordi> well, the bum thing might be a different issue
[12:52] <jordi> kiko: https://launchpad.net/products/bum/+translations shows only the ubuntu template
[12:53] <kiko> yeah, which is broken broken broken
[12:53] <jordi> the translatable branches portlet does show the other one
[12:53] <jordi> but it should be the other way round, given that bum is an official rosetta product
[01:08] <mantiena-baltix> kiko, thanks
[01:09] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad: [trivial]  Fix for bug 5505: Bug nicknames no longer used. Fixes traversal by implementing an IBugSet.getByNameOrID method, and using that in places which traverse to bugs (r2996: kiko)
[01:10] <kiko> rock and roll!
[01:11] <kiko> let's use that tree to fix mantiena-baltix's problem
[01:19] <jamesh> hi kiko
[01:19] <kiko> hello jamesh
[01:19] <kiko> how are you?
[01:19] <jamesh> good
[01:20] <kiko> congratulations on the amazing work
[01:20] <jamesh> so the migration seems to have gone fairly well
[01:20] <kiko> the transition was smooth
[01:20] <jamesh> thanks for doing the announcement
[01:21] <kiko> no problem
[01:21] <kiko> I added a banner to bugzilla's show_bug page too
[01:21] <jamesh> brilliant
[01:22] <kiko> elmo helped me with the necessary access
[01:23] <kiko> jamesh, bradb had suggested some bugs didn't have watches set?
[01:24] <kiko> I can't remember now which one though, that was a bit hectic
[01:33] <kiko> hey stub
[01:33] <kiko> how's it going?
[01:33] <kiko> I had a test question if you could help me with it
[01:33] <kiko> shouldn't be too hard
[01:34] <stub> Yo
[01:35] <kiko> stub, I want to understand why doc/milestone.txt has no login() call and still works.
[01:35] <kiko> stub, I want to test permissions there, but apparently the script is running with full privileges
[01:35] <kiko> so login() is a nop
[01:35] <stub> Maybe a previous test logged in and didn't logout in the teardown
[01:36] <kiko> hmm are doctests susceptible to that?
[01:36] <stub> Sure. Nothing really different about doctests
[01:36] <kiko> do you need to manually log out in them then?
[01:37] <stub> I don't know - I havn't looked at the login() stuff that was put together for the test framework
[01:37] <kiko> there's no logout calls in the doc/ directory, so obviously I'm confused :)
[01:38] <stub> logout call would likely be in test_system_documentation
[01:38] <stub> LaunchpadFunctionalTestCase's tear down calls it
[01:38] <kiko> hmmm
[01:38] <stub> What happens if you just add a login call?
[01:38] <kiko> I don't think that's it
[01:38] <kiko> nothing
[01:38] <kiko> I login as anonymous
[01:39] <kiko> and it still works
[01:41] <stub> Is the object you are dealing with security wrapped? ie. you retrieved it from a FooSet Utility, and that utility was a securedutility and not the default insecure one?
[01:41] <kiko> hmmm, good question. I should print it out.
[01:42] <kiko>     + <security proxied canonical.launchpad.database.milestone.MilestoneSet instance at 0x31b01210>
[01:42] <kiko> that's crazy
[01:44] <stub> And the permissions in the content directive for MilestoneSet are correct?
[01:45] <kiko> ah, perhaps not, perhaps the web ui is broken elsewhere
[01:45] <kiko>     <!-- IMilestoneSet -->
[01:45] <kiko>     <securedutility
[01:45] <kiko>         class="canonical.launchpad.database.MilestoneSet"
[01:45] <kiko>         provides="canonical.launchpad.interfaces.IMilestoneSet">
[01:45] <kiko>         <allow interface="canonical.launchpad.interfaces.IMilestoneSet" />
[01:45] <kiko>     </securedutility>
[01:45] <kiko> hmmm
[01:46] <kiko> so if I read that right there's no permissions in place to handle that, right stub?
[01:46] <kiko> it's free-for-all
[01:46] <kiko> so hmm.
[01:46] <stub> Public read, and nobody can set I think (not sure about the default set)
[01:46] <stub> c/set/write for less confusion
[01:47] <kiko> I think any methods on IMilestoneSet are allowed, no?
[01:47] <kiko> anyway
[01:47] <kiko> hmmm
[01:47] <kiko> how do I friggin test this thing without writing a pagetest
[01:48] <stub> Any methods defined in IMilestoneSet
[01:48] <kiko> this is unfortunate
[01:49] <kiko> I thought it would be possible to check the permissions with a doctest
[01:49] <stub> I thought your test was failing because you were expecting something to be protected that wasn't, so fixing the security declaration would do the trick? Or is MilestoneSet supposed to be free-for-all?
[01:49] <kiko> but now I realize we're using page-based permissions to control this distro-milestone addition
[01:49] <kiko> my test wasn't failing, i was trying to get it to fail to create a milestone when logged in as<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:50] <kiko> however, what we use to limit creation of milestones is page-based permissions
[01:50] <kiko> so I think I need a pagetest
[01:51] <kiko> First, let's see if Foo Bar can view the page to add a milestone to the
[01:51] <kiko> Ubuntu distribution.
[01:51] <kiko> foo bar is a superuser :)
[01:52] <stub> I still don't understand. Why not fix the permissions on MilestoneSet to launchpad.Edit or something is needed to create Milestones?
[01:53] <kiko> stub, I can do that, but I will still need a pagetest because the actual pages are also protected by permissions, right?
[01:53] <stub> Yes - that is correct.
[01:53] <stub> Well.. they wouldn't have to be if the permissions on the MilestoneSet were correct ;)
[01:53] <kiko> that's what I was driving at -- I didn't want to write a pagetest. I hate them. :)
[01:53] <kiko> hmmm
[01:54] <kiko> I don't know, because it's one specific method in IMilestoneSet that's forbidden
[01:54] <kiko> you can still query them
[01:55] <stub> Sure. You can split the IMilestoneSet interface into two, and use different permissions to protect the different interface components. Or use the attributes attribute to specify permissions for individual attributes rather than by the whole interface.
[01:56] <kiko> that's interesting!
[01:57] <kiko> hmmm. but there's a catch -- you don't want the guy to even see the form.
[01:57] <kiko> so unless I call a checkAllowedToCreate or something on IMilestoneSet..
[01:57] <kiko> (in the browser code)
[01:58] <stub> Sure. So if you want to test that the form redirects to the login page if you don't have permissions (or returns an error code), then you need a page test
[01:59] <kiko> right.
[02:12] <kiko> interesting. if you don't logout in a pagetest it blows up
[02:14] <sivang> stub: is there a way to undo what launchpad/utilities/launchpad-database-setup does? I ran into some sudo problem with it last night, how can I take my pg back to start, and retest with my "fixes" ? (AFAICT there are really minor sudo usage fixes to make ti work)
[02:14] <stub> Page tests need to use basic auth, don't they? Or are you doing non-pagetesty tests in between
[02:15] <kiko> stub, right
[02:15] <kiko> it ain't workin though :)
[02:15] <kiko> oh, it is
[02:15] <kiko> I missed a flush_database_updates
[02:15] <kiko> that's a bug, man
[02:15] <kiko> f_d_u is a wart
[02:15] <stub> eek... a shell script!
[02:16] <sivang> stub: yeah :)
[02:17] <stub> Doesn't look like there is any way to back out the changes, except by reverse engineering the script and doing it manually
[02:17] <sivang> what if I purge my pg and reinstall?
[02:17] <stub> There is a DatabaseSetup doc I think on the wiki that takes you through things manually I think (might be up to date...)
[02:18] <stub> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/DatabaseSetup
[02:18] <stub> Looks up to date
[02:18] <sivang> stub: ok, stil re: l-d-s do you think it owuld make sense to pythonfie it?
[02:18] <sivang> stub: k, thanks, I will try to follow it and try to make my rocketfuel take off :)
[02:19] <stub> I wouldn't invest time in it unless you are bored - it is rarely used.
[02:19] <sivang> stub: ah I see :) thanks for the note
[02:20] <kiko> stub, can you look at distribution.zcml and help me understand why +addmilestone isn't reachable by the distribution owner?
[02:20] <stub> I guess the shell script is more readable anyway
[02:20] <kiko> oh!
[02:20] <kiko> I see!
[02:20] <kiko> class EditDistribution(AdminByAdminsTeam):
[02:20] <kiko> stub, isn't that crazy?
[02:21] <kiko> shouldn't the distribution owner be allowed to edit it?
[02:21] <stub> I guess so
[02:22] <stub> Or maybe it is considered too scary - dunno
[02:22] <kiko> let me see what editing a distribution gets you
[02:22] <kiko>             permission="launchpad.Edit"
[02:22] <kiko>             set_attributes="displayname title summary description
[02:22] <kiko>                             translationgroup translationpermission
[02:22] <kiko>                             members owner bugcontact"
[02:22] <kiko>               name="+reassign"
[02:22] <kiko>         name="+addmilestone"
[02:23] <kiko> looks pretty harmless.
[02:23] <stub> I mean fallout. eg. can you screw up archives or the build system?
[02:27] <kiko> stub, not really
[02:27] <kiko> those attributes are all safe
[02:27] <kiko> the problem is with distroreleases
[02:27] <kiko> that's a bit more dangerous
[02:27] <kiko> but that's launchpad.Admin still
[02:28] <sivang> hmm,how can I see a bug that I've been CC'd to ? (or rather, search for it)
[02:30] <matsubara> sivang: +subscribedbugs ?
[02:32] <sivang> matsubara: so that means, that if someone wants me to see a bug report he's fileing, he can subscribe me to the bug?
[02:33] <kiko> he has to, sivang
[02:33] <matsubara> sivang: I think so or assign it to you. :)
[02:35] <sivang> ok, so I'll revert to searching the bug report according the product and text :)
[02:39] <sivang> matsubara: is there a way to search by reporter?
[02:41] <matsubara> sivang: you can search using the advanced search
[02:41] <sivang> matsubara: how do you switch to it?
[02:41] <matsubara> or you can go the person in question page: launchpad.net/people/<person>/+reportedbugs
[02:41] <sivang> oh right, thanks!
[02:45] <matsubara> sivang: btw, here the URL for the advanced search on launchpad bugs. https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bugs-advanced
[02:45] <matsubara> s/here/here is/
[02:46] <sivang> wow, that's nice
[02:53] <kiko> pqm give me one more failure AND THAT"S IT
[02:54] <kiko> you're HISTORY
[03:02] <\sh> OOPS-14B203
[03:02] <\sh> for the advanced search page when I search for MOTU as assignee...
[03:02] <\sh> but this behaviour is already filed as a bug :)]
[03:03] <kiko> matsubara is slacking on fixing that
[03:05] <matsubara> \sh: do you know what is the bug number?
[03:06] <\sh> matsubara: let me have a look
[03:07] <matsubara> \sh: bug 5389 ?
[03:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 5389: "System error if you specify an inexistent assignee in any advanced search for bugs" Fix req. for: launchpad (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Diogo Matsubara, Status: Confirmed http://launchpad.net/bugs/5389
[03:08] <matsubara> hmm it's not that, actually motu does exist.
[03:09] <\sh> matsubara: well...MOTU is the common name..but<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is resolved...
[03:10] <matsubara> \sh: I tried to reproduce, but it didn't give me an oops
[03:10] <\sh> matsubara: i just tried it again...and I can't reproduce it either...strange
[03:11] <\sh> but I had some oops pages today, when I search for people e.g. but the second try was successful
[03:11] <matsubara> \sh: maybe it's another bug. I'll check the log as soon as it becomes available.
[03:11] <\sh> thx :)
[03:15] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad: r=lifeless Fix for bug 1512: Admins creating products should be allowed to set owner and is_reviewed. Does just that: sets fieldNames in the ProductAddView constructor, handles the options in the createAndAdd handler, and tests it is sane. (r2997: kiko)
[03:16] <kiko> violence works
[03:22] <matsubara> kiko: wanna review the fix for bug 2982?
[03:31] <kiko> bug 2982?
[03:31] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 2982: "The bugs link on the user page should show all bugs that a user is involved with" Fix req. for: launchpad (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Diogo Matsubara, Status: In Progress http://launchpad.net/bugs/2982
[03:31] <kiko> aieee
[03:31] <kiko> matsubara, sounds like a job for SUPER SALGADO
[03:31] <kiko> :)
[03:32] <matsubara> kiko: ok. :)
[03:55] <sivang> heh
[03:58] <sivang> phew, I found that bug I wanted../me hails the advanced search
[03:58] <kiko> you mean google?
[03:58] <sivang> kiko: hehehe
[03:59] <sivang> kiko: actually, using +bugs-advanced search , suprisignly , it worked.
[03:59] <kiko> stub fixed the fti borkage
[03:59] <kiko> so it should be better
[04:01] <sivang> yes, it seems so. what was to my side is that I assumed (correctly) Scott's merg account text bug wasn't still assigned, and I asked for "newest first", and in bug id/text I set "merge accounts". That did the trick :)
[04:03] <sivang> kiko: how do I reach the merge accounts page?
[04:03] <kiko> you need to kill a baby goat
[04:04] <sivang> erm, I'm ideaologically opposed to meet sacrifices :)
[04:04] <sivang> but I can kill an onion.
[04:04] <sivang> s/meet/meat/
[04:05] <kiko> read the bible, it's all about killing baby goats
[04:05] <kiko> you should know, you guys wrote it
[04:05] <kiko> but since you've got some moral problem with it I will do it for you
[04:06] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/people/+requestmerge
[04:06] <sivang> hehe
[04:06] <kiko> it is the best-guarded secret in launchpad
[04:07] <sivang> oh, why so?
[04:13] <sivang> hmm, will we have some sort of mechanism to save "bookmarks" of bugs I'm interested to view in a snap? sort of "My Launchpad Home" content?
[04:14] <sivang> (for instance, I now want to have 3 bugs grouped under such for easy viewing over the next coupld of days)
[04:35] <kiko-afk> suicide bike ride
[04:36] <sivang> kiko-afk: take care
[04:57] <ddaa> sivang: I have been vaguely thinking about something like that
[04:57] <ddaa> at least for branches
[04:58] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad: r=SteveA Fix for bug 3289: Can't edit gstreamer-midi bounty. Just add a field to the schema for +admin, and add a trivial test. (r2998: kiko)
[04:58] <ddaa> sivang: I would like if you could write up your use cases for bugs somewhere. For example on the wiki on to the launchpad mailing list.
[05:00] <sivang> ddaa: ah you're here :) Yes, it makes sense to come up with focused use cases for that. I might send ti to the mailing list then.
[05:01] <sivang> ddaa: bugzilla has something like "My Searches" but this could be extended in launchpad to hold not only bugs, as you just noted.
[05:03] <sivang> ddaa: how's you btw?
[05:03] <ddaa> I'm fine.
[05:04] <ddaa> Got the importd2bz transition under way, and back hacking on the branch registration UI.
[05:04] <sivang> oh, cool
[05:04] <ddaa> It's a treat to do some hacking after all the communication and deployment I have done lately.
[05:05] <ddaa> Also, the whole launchpad team (except stub) will be on a sprint about Bazaar integration in Launchpad at the end of march.
[05:05] <sivang> you as well, right?
[05:06] <ddaa> Well, if I understand correctly my job ATM, I'm basically lead Bazaar-Launcpad integrator... so I think I would need to clarify with the mgmt where I will stand in that sprint.
[05:06] <ddaa> At least, I'm excited about it.
[05:07] <ddaa> In particularly interested in putting up some vision thing to guide the work on that sprint. But deep thinking needs time, and I lack time.
[05:08] <ddaa> And right now, it's week-end, so I stay away from that.
[05:08] <sivang> I see, well, I'm pretty sure you can handle it. You're so deep into the inner workings (as demonstrated in person) .... :-)
[05:09] <ddaa> Being deep down in the gears and building a vision are two very different things.
[05:09] <sivang> ddaa: btw, do you kno wanything about the merge accounts dialog? I'm trying to figure out which account you need to be logged in as , when you want to remove the duplicated account? AFAICT , whose the duplicated account is a matter of preception ;)
[05:10] <ddaa> In the use case it was designed for, it's not a matter perception.
[05:10] <ddaa> The use case is something like:
[05:11] <ddaa> "I have created a launchpad account, and found out that one of my email addresses is associated to an automatically generated account. I want to get this email and the objects associated to the autogenerated account."
[05:11] <ddaa> Which ought to be pretty common for debian devels.
[05:12] <sivang> I see, ok, that cleared for me. thanks!
[05:14] <ddaa> Mh... the help text is indeed confusing.
[05:14] <sivang> ddaa: so following that use case, the newly created account by the DD is getting the ${NAME}X (X being a number) suffix ?
[05:14] <sivang> ddaa: that is the NOT auto genereated account
[05:14] <ddaa> sivang: can you file a bug about that help text?
[05:14] <sivang> ddaa: Keybuk already did, I'm trying to find out what to really have there and possibly devise a patch
[05:15] <sivang> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/28477
[05:15] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 28477: "Merge text is confusing" Fix req. for: launchpad (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Unconfirmed
[05:15] <sivang> ddaa: that's why I was asking you these questions.
[05:16] <ddaa> I did not parse your previous question. And honestly I do not know how person names are set in Launchpad.
[05:16] <sivang> ok, thanks indeed for the previous tips.
[05:16] <ddaa> Basically, in the usual duplicate account case, the user can only log in using one account, and want to merge autogerated accounts that refer to the same user.
[05:17] <ddaa> But caveat, I've not been on the team doing that work. It's mostly educated guesses.
[05:18] <sivang> oh, I understand.
[05:24] <sivang> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/PeopleMerge seems to be what I was looking for.
[05:25] <ddaa> yup
[05:28] <sivang> better be waiting for mpt , and ask him about the right text he thinks should be there.
[05:34] <nlindblad> hello
[05:50] <sivang> I'm out for a bit
[06:18] <sivang> jblack: fine, fighting to make my bzr push working again
[06:18] <jblack> What's wrong?
[06:19] <matsubara> \sh: around?
[06:19] <\sh> matsubara: somehow :)
[06:20] <matsubara> \sh: I checked the logs about that bug you've run into today in the morning, it's a manifestation of the bug 5389
[06:20] <matsubara> \sh: have you reported it?
[06:21] <\sh> no not now...
[06:22] <\sh> but if the oops page is not showing up, it won't find anything, doesn't matter which name I enter (e.g. MOTU motu or the email address of this team)
[06:22] <sivang> jblack: I can't seem to install bzrtools:
[06:22] <sivang> The following packages have unmet dependencies.
[06:22] <sivang>   bzrtools: Depends: bzr (= 0.7+200512311044)
[06:22] <sivang> E: Broken packages
[06:22] <jblack> I emailed jbailey about that...
[06:22] <jblack> jbailey: Will the real jbailey please stand up?
[06:22] <\sh> hmm..
[06:23] <\sh> oh those packages are broken, I thought the ubuntu ones
[06:23] <jblack> He's no on irc.
[06:23] <sivang> \sh: would you think removing the dependency may solve this?
[06:24] <\sh> sivang: adjusting the dep would make more sense
[06:24] <sivang> \sh: err, "adjusting"
[06:24] <sivang> :)
[06:24] <\sh> bzrtools without bzr is not good :)
[06:25] <sivang> yes yes, I know, it happens to me all the time that I say not what I want to do...I need bug fix release :)
[06:25] <\sh> sivang: wait for jbaily or fetch the sources and do it on your local system :)
[06:25] <\sh> I'm just to tired to touch any packages today again...just finished the libXft.la clean up for kubuntu (i hope so)
[06:26] <sivang> \sh: no's ok :) Already did and installed cleanly.
[06:26] <sivang> \sh: have a nice evenin,g takesome time off!
[06:26] <sivang> jblack: ok, back to you ;-) :
[06:26] <sivang> jblack: pooh@tigershark ~/specs/home-user-backup/utilities $ bzr push sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:/home/sivan/public_html/home-user-backup
[06:26] <sivang> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:/home/sivan/public_html/home-user-backup does not exist.
[06:27] <sivang> any idea?
[06:27] <jblack> Hmm.
[06:27] <sivang> (IIRC I didn't change anything from how I used ti push before)
[06:28] <jblack> run "bzr plugins". Is bzrtools listed?
[06:28] <sivang> let's see
[06:28] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/specs/home-user-backup/utilities $ bzr plugins
[06:28] <sivang> /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bzrlib/plugins/bzrtools
[06:28] <sivang>         Various useful plugins for working with bzr.
[06:29] <jblack> cat ~/specs/home-user-backup/utilities/.bzr/x-push-data
[06:30] <sivang> cat: /home/pooh/specs/home-user-backup/utilities/.bzr/x-push-data: No such file or directory
[06:30] <jblack> what?
[06:30] <sivang> weird
[06:30] <jblack> Try to cd into /home/pooh/specs/home-user-backup
[06:30] <jblack> then try "bzr push"
[06:31] <sivang> bzr: ERROR: No push location known or specified.
[06:31] <sivang> should I try with the location again?
[06:31] <jblack> What is the top directory of your branch?
[06:32] <sivang> ~/specs
[06:33] <jblack> So you have ~/specs/.bzr  ?
[06:34] <sivang> no, only ~/specs/home-user-backup/.bzr
[06:34] <jblack> ok. then ~/specs/home-userbackup is the top level dir of your branch.
[06:35] <jblack> cd into that, and run "bzr push sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:public_html/home-user-backup"
[06:35] <jblack> see if that gives you love
[06:35] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/specs/home-user-backup $ bzr push sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:public_html/home-user-backup
[06:35] <sivang> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:public_html/home-user-backup does not exist.
[06:36] <jblack> cd into that, and run "bzr push sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:/home/sivan/public_html/home-user-backup"
[06:36] <sivang> same..
[06:37] <jblack> I'm looking at the dir. its there.
[06:37] <sivang> weird, aien't it?
[06:37] <jblack> sivan@mercury:~/public_html/home-user-backup$ cd /home/sivan/public_html/home-user-backup
[06:37] <jblack> sivan@mercury:~/public_html/home-user-backup$
[06:38] <jblack> try "bzr push<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:38] <jblack> Thats a different protocol
[06:39] <sivang> seems to work now :)
[06:39] <sivang> yes, sftp does support locking when the other side is being changed, as opposed to rsync ? (I think I read that over some launchpad docs)
[06:40] <jblack> Yes
[06:40] <jblack> the catch is that sftp is much slower
[06:40] <sivang> ah, bad :-( It' just waited a couple of seconds, and then gave the same error
[06:40] <jblack> ping -c1 mercury.linuxguru.ent
[06:40] <jblack> ping -c1 mercury.linuxguru.net
[06:41] <sivang> 64 bytes from static-209-158-45-74.scr.east.verizon.net (<IP_ADDRESS>): icmp_seq=1 ttl=52 time=205 ms
[06:41] <jblack> I'm going to move your branch out of the way.
[06:41] <jblack> It thinks here that
[06:42] <jblack> Ok. bzr push sftp://....
[06:42] <sivang> yep, retrying
[06:43] <sivang> same...
[06:44] <sivang> totally funky
[06:44] <jblack> There should be a file named ~/.bzr.log
[06:44] <jblack> Post the last 50 lines or so to pastebin.com ?
[06:44] <sivang> yep, just a sec.
[06:47] <sivang> http://mercury.linuxguru.net/~sivan/50_lines.txt
[06:48] <sivang> let me know if I shall use manual rsync for that, after it's saturday and we could continue this next week :)
[06:48] <jblack> I'm starting to consider that.
[06:49] <jblack> You can ssh in directly?
[06:49] <jblack> Of course you can. you put that file there..
[06:49] <sivang> yeah :)
[06:49] <sivang> You were kind enough to let me have an account on your box :)
[06:49] <jblack> try "bzr push<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:50] <jblack> Try that. two slashes between host and home
[06:50] <jblack> oh. Duh
[06:50] <jblack> try "bzr push<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:50] <jblack> Try with both one slash, and if that doesn't work, two
[06:50] <sivang> try only the last one then?
[06:50] <sivang> (17:50)
[06:50] <jblack> First try with one slash. Note the lacking home-user-backup at the end.
[06:50] <sivang> once with , and without two slashes?
[06:51] <sivang> yes
[06:51] <sivang> ok, one slash, no hub at the end not working
[06:51] <sivang> now:
[06:51] <jblack> its pushing
[06:52] <sivang> man, what's changed? why won't it work the old way?
[06:52] <jblack> I suspect...
[06:52] <sivang> (it also gives me : bzr: WARNING: Unable to update the working tree of<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:52] <jblack> That's still there? Don't worry about that.
[06:57] <sivang> yay, seems finished.
[06:59] <sivang> jblack: hmm, http://mercury.linuxguru.net/~sivan/home-user-backup/ suddenly gives me nothing, is that normal? (that is empy dir)
[06:59] <jblack> Yes, but you can still branch and merge it fine.
[06:59] <jblack> It just doesn't show the working tree.
[07:00] <sivang> I ssh'd in, ls -la gives only the .bzr dir
[07:00] <jblack> Yes. Thats fine.
[07:00] <sivang> ah ok, could just briefly explain what's happened? :-)
[07:00] <jblack> Bzr now pushes the branch and not the working tree.
[07:01] <sivang> what's the difference ?
[07:01] <jblack> The files you hack on and the rcs data are two different things.
[07:01] <jblack> The RCS data is pushed, but not the files you hack on.
[07:03] <sivang> I see, but what if I want to push to location to serve as a backup repository of the files I hack on? I would then need the original files with the changsets in the RCS to get the latest tree, no?
[07:03] <jblack> Then you start looking at the bzrtools rsync plugin.
[07:05] <sivang> hmm, but when I bzr branch from the remote location, I see all the files do get here in their latest version, so it does pushes changes as it did before. I think I didn't understand what you explained fully.
[07:05] <sivang> (bzr branch to a different new fresh checkout that it)
[07:05] <jblack> Ok. Lets try it a different way.
[07:06] <jblack> When you commit, does it go to the files you edit?
[07:06] <sivang> what go to the files I edit?
[07:06] <jblack> I.E. if you hack up files you edit.. in your working tree...  But when you run commit, your files don't change, do they?
[07:07] <jblack> Ok. So when you run commit, something must be saved somewhere, right?
[07:07] <sivang> right :)
[07:07] <jblack> Ok. Thats the data thats pushed.
[07:08] <jblack> Thats the only stuff we need. For bzr to do its magic, it doesn't need the files you hack on. Just the record keeping that it keeps in the .bzr directory
[07:08] <sivang> ah ok, and that's actually does describe the tree from rev 1 to rev N, so having the files pushed as well as mere convinience for the web branch
[07:09] <jblack> Exactly.
[07:09] <sivang> .bzr already has all files in, in form of timstamped changes ontop of previous ones.
[07:09] <sivang> thanks for putting some clue into me, wrt that :)
[07:09] <jblack> Something like that. The changes are stored in a special way, but you have the right idea.
[07:10] <jblack> Those files that you _do_ edit, the ones not in the .bzr dir, we call that the "working tree"
[07:10] <jblack> There are all sorts of problems that crop up as concerns fixing up working trees.
[07:10] <jblack> during push, that is
[07:10] <sivang> I see.
[07:11] <jblack> They didn't affect you, but they did affect others. The problems were bad enough that we're not pushing working trees right now at all.
[07:11] <sivang> I see. I can imagine launchpad provided enough use cases for that :)
[07:12] <sivang> ok, so if I Want to let people web browse through my code, I will then use the rsync plugin or just rsync the tree to a web folder.
[07:13] <LarstiQ> that, or you can use a web thingy like hgweb
[07:15] <sivang> LarstiQ: I will have to look, but now I Have to go :)
[07:15] <LarstiQ> sivang: ok, ciao!
[07:15] <sivang> jblack: thanks alot for the help :)
[07:15] <jblack> welcome
[07:16] <sivang> jblack: I'll catch you again next week I suppose, I wonder if we still have anything to do together on RFS.
[07:16] <sivang> LarstiQ: thx for the tip.
[07:17] <jblack> It just needs one thing, that I hope to do tonight.
[07:17] <jblack> A way to update copies of launchpad checkouts
[07:19] <LarstiQ> fwiw, https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lifeless/bzr/integration still gives me a 404
[07:22] <sivang> jblack: refuel does that no?
[08:01] <mantiena-baltix> kiko-afk, I still have problems on http://launchpad.net/distros/baltix/+addmilestone - I get an error about permissions :(
[08:50] <jblack> sigang: Huh. Thought I already answered. No, it doesn't.
[08:50] <jblack> It just updates the local mirror of rocketfuel-built, not the various copies of that, that you have.
[09:49] <jblack> I wonder if a slinky put on a upward moving escalator ever reaches the bottom.
[10:15] <LaserJock> I have a few (maybe stupid) questions about malone
[10:16] <LaserJock> is there a way to get the list of bug #s for a particular source package?
[10:25] <LaserJock> is there a plan/spec on being able to file Intent To Package and Request For Package bugs in Malone?
[11:42] <lamont-away> so how does one actually _close_ a bug, I wonder.
[11:44] <lamont-away> have I mentioned this week that hiding links all over the t)%&*&%*_^(+ page is an absolutely non-intuitive interface?
[11:46] <LaserJock> fix committed means you uploaded and fix released means its in the repo, ready to go?
[11:47] <LaserJock> that's how I interpret it anyway
[11:48] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, yes, https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/809
[11:48] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 809: "[WISHLIST]  Easy way to request packages" Fix req. for: launchpad (upstream), Severity: Wishlist, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Confirmed
[11:50] <lamont-away> LaserJock: I'm reading it as 'committed' --> checked into source control, released--> uploaded
[11:51] <Nafallo> I agree with lamont-away on that :-)
[11:51] <LaserJock> hmm, I'll have to think about that
[11:56] <LaserJock> so MOTU wannabes would change status from "In Progress" to "Fix committed" when they have added a patch that should be reviewed and uploaded and then a MOTU can change status to "Fix Released" when it gets uploaded
[12:00] <Nafallo> fix commited to what? REVU? bzr?
[12:01] <LaserJock> we often add debdiffs to the bug reports
[12:01] <LaserJock> that are then reviewed and uploaded
[12:01] <LaserJock> REVU mostly I guess


[14:57] <mup> Bug #1848380 opened: [feature request] Add possibility to supply cloud-init user_data in the GUI <MAAS:Fix Committed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848380>
[14:57] <mup> Bug #1886671 opened: Deployment fails when iLO virtual NIC is enabled <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1886671>
[15:00] <mup> Bug #1848380 changed: [feature request] Add possibility to supply cloud-init user_data in the GUI <MAAS:Fix Committed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848380>
[15:00] <mup> Bug #1886671 changed: Deployment fails when iLO virtual NIC is enabled <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1886671>
[15:03] <mup> Bug #1848380 opened: [feature request] Add possibility to supply cloud-init user_data in the GUI <MAAS:Fix Committed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848380>
[15:03] <mup> Bug #1886671 opened: Deployment fails when iLO virtual NIC is enabled <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1886671>
[20:04] <mup> Bug #1894894 opened: Renaming A record in UI fails with error: list.remove(x): x not in list <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1894894>


[08:46] <tvtue> hi all
[14:01] <AlanBell> hi all
[14:01] <AlanBell> no hangout yet . . .
[14:03] <AlanBell> jono is on the case
[14:05] <UbuPhillup> hi
[14:06] <UbuPhillup> yes
[14:06] <Tm_T> hi
[14:09] <AlanBell> jono: can you add "Jussi “Tm T” Kekkonen"
[14:09] <AlanBell> anyone else got a google plus name to add?
[14:09] <AlanBell> jono: IdleOne / Giovanni Chiazzese
[14:10] <Tm_T> stupid google not allowing Tm_T as nickname
[14:10] <AlanBell> indeed
[14:10] <Myrtti> I'll just lurk and watch and annoy you via IRC
[14:10] <Tm_T> Myrtti ♥
[14:10] <AlanBell> ok, so lets chat on IRC too and you can all watch me type
[14:10] <Myrtti> I see you're at the office AlanBell
[14:10] <Myrtti> nice business gear, button up shirt and tie and all
[14:11] <AlanBell> yeah, we keep it formal
[14:11] <UbuPhillup> nice
[14:12] <cm-t_phone> hi
[14:12] <UbuPhillup> hi
[14:14] <baizon> sehr gut!!! http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/olg-duesseldorf-haelt-netzentgelte-befreiung-fuer-verfassungswidrig-a-887209.html
[14:15] <baizon> sorry wrong channel :(
[14:16]  * tsimpson_ pokes his head in
[14:17] <Myrtti> in case it hasn't been obvious from my moanings of late, I'll probably move over to Debian on my personal systems. Will stick around in some of the channels, but dropping some channels out and probably my Ubuntu membership as well.
[14:17] <Unit193> Heya, tsimpson_.
[14:17] <Myrtti> and of course still a freenode staff member.
[14:20] <IdleOne> Good morning, sorry I am late
[14:23] <UbuPhillup> #ubuntu-de is good
[14:26] <Mamarok> sorry, have to go...
[14:32] <Tm_T> wouldn't hurt asking "what kind of communication you would need?" in time to time (:
[14:33] <popey> jono: s/the mistake we have made/among the many mistakes we have made/
[14:33] <AlanBell> o/ popey
[14:33] <popey> o/
[14:33] <jono> popey, yup
[14:34] <popey> i am unconviced "lack of info for the community" is the big issue at hand.
[14:38] <UbuPhillup> there is no officel wiki for ubuntu in germay we have ubuntuusers.de instead
[14:39]  * IdleOne checks
[14:39] <IdleOne> Yup, human.
[14:40] <tsimpson_> apparently we have ~100 members https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ops
[14:40] <Myrtti> it's not because we particularly want to help, but it's easier to help with things going right on the first try than try to put off the fires when they've been done the wrong way and there's a great hurry to fix them, because X Y and Z start in 5  minutes
[14:41] <Tm_T> yeah I rather help when it causes less work and damage (:
[14:42] <Tm_T> and also I rather help than watch things go wrong just because
[14:44] <Myrtti> jono: you have to excuse us for thinking it's already been decided when a lot of things have seem to be told to people on a 5 day notice without much discussion. It kinda sets people's teeth on edge
[14:44] <Myrtti> but I'm sure this has been said by many people already, so w/e
[14:45] <Myrtti> there was at one time some mirroring of the bots
[14:46] <Myrtti> when the responsibility of running them moved from Seveas to others
[14:47] <Myrtti> and jussi's was just one of the mirrored ones, I had one mirrored one as well ready to be launched if something goes sour
[14:47] <tsimpson_> and while we are talking about bots, we do have an issue with ubot2
[14:47] <IdleOne> yup
[14:47] <tsimpson_> the issue being that it's horribly out of date and not maintained
[14:48] <tsimpson_> I'd like to have the bots decentralized, but that seems like something that requires much more planning and coordination that I can do on my own
[14:49] <Myrtti> tsimpson_: I think people would be happy with functioning backups for a start
[14:49] <tsimpson_> and then there's the long awaited open-sourcing of the floodbots
[14:51]  * Unit193 more or less considers his a backup.
[14:51] <jussi> bringup later or?
[14:51] <AlanBell> yeah, the bans database is probably the main thing that isn't very redundant
[14:51] <tsimpson_> someone (smart) needs to come up with a way to integrate LP and ChanServ (access lists)
[14:51] <Mirv> QUESTION: where are the etherpad notes? :)
[14:51] <AlanBell> tsimpson_: I did get some way on that
[14:51] <tsimpson_> Mirv: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1303-community-1303-irc-team
[14:51] <AlanBell> hi Mirv I haven't been making any as such
[14:52] <popey> outrage!
[14:52] <Mirv> AlanBell: ok, I was just joining after other session to get some sort of summary
[14:52] <AlanBell> Mirv: about to start making some
[14:52] <Mirv> tsimpson_: reading that instead now
[14:52] <Tm_T> Mirv: basicly "we want better communication and usage of our services" (:
[14:52] <popey> Mirv: in summary: Canonical are evil.
[14:52] <Mirv> tsimpson_: I mean the IRC log
[14:52] <tsimpson_> nothing much to read atm
[14:52] <Tm_T> popey: awww
[14:52] <IdleOne> lol popey
[14:52] <ahayzen> popey, where is evilpopey today?
[14:52] <vibhav> popey: NoTheyArent
[14:52] <vibhav> (tm)
[14:53] <tsimpson_> logs are on ubottu.com and (please use) irclogs.ubuntu.com
[14:53] <evilpopey> boo
[14:53] <ahayzen> o/ evilpopey
[14:53] <UbuPhillup> i must left
[14:53] <UbuPhillup> by
[14:54]  * ahayzen runs to next session
[14:55] <roadmr> hello again X)
[14:55] <balloons> hello :-)
[14:55] <balloons> just speak up if you'd like to be in the hangout
[14:55] <vibhav> balloons: o/
[14:56]  * stgraber waves
[14:56]  * gema_ shouts
[14:56]  * cjohnston pops balloons
[14:56] <balloons> ohh look
[14:56] <stgraber> balloons: can you send me the link to the hangout?
[14:56] <balloons> my missing notes
[14:56] <balloons> yes.. one sec to all those who pinged
[14:56] <cjohnston> lmap
[14:56] <cjohnston> lmao
[14:57] <vibhav> balloons: You will eed to invite me to another email, is that fine
[14:57] <vibhav> need*
[14:57] <ElderDryas> Can whoever is in charge of the video feed let us know when it sactually tarts for this session, so I don't have to refresh every 30 seconds?
[14:57] <balloons> ElderDryas, sure thing
[14:57] <ElderDryas> danke :)
[14:58] <gema_> balloons: can I have a spot in the hangout?
[14:58] <vibhav> balloons: me too!
[14:59] <balloons> k I sent the url to all I believe
[14:59] <balloons> anyone else who wants to join the hangout?
[15:00] <balloons> starting the broadcast
[15:00] <balloons> anyone else who wants to join the hangout?
[15:00] <janof> invite please
[15:01] <balloons> anyone else who wants to join the hangout?
[15:01] <cjwatson> I'd like to
[15:01] <ElderDryas> Names and nicks?
[15:02] <balloons> anyone else who wants to join the hangout?
[15:02] <philipballew> balloons, if theres room, i can
[15:04] <plars> restored
[15:05] <pitti_uds> balloons: would that include things like "we have a PPA with a proposed new X.org stack"?
[15:06] <plars> ah, sorry, I thought you were looking for it still. Feel free to delete
[15:06] <plars> I can join if you have room
[15:07] <gema_> plars: your lower third
[15:07] <skellat> PPAs are going to screw those of us who use things like the BeagleBoard-xM in a desktop role
[15:07] <plars> gema_: yes, one sec
[15:07] <pitti_uds> skellat: I didn't mean PPA literally as we have them today; obviously we need some kind of "staging areas" which include ARM
[15:08] <micahg> I think we need a second britney instance to give us human testing before packages hit most end users in a rolling release
[15:08] <skellat> pitti_uds: Definitely.  I look forward to seeing that coalesce.
[15:09] <micahg> ramping up backports would be great as well, if be able to automate some of the backports testing, that could certainly make approving backports easier
[15:11] <jasnow> what is SRU?
[15:11] <pitti_uds> stable release update
[15:11] <stgraber> stable release updates
[15:11] <balloons> stable release update
[15:11] <jasnow> thank u
[15:11] <gema_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[15:11] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates for the current ruleset
[15:11] <cjwatson> heh
[15:11] <roadmr> jasnow: hehe :) it's the updates you get offered by e.g. update manager to an stable, released version of ubuntu
[15:11] <cjwatson> micahg: right, there's a work item on another spec for that
[15:12] <jtaylor> micahg: displaying backports that need testing in some public place would be good, I don'T think people see the bugtracker
[15:12] <jtaylor> (also drop the rdepend build deps requirement)
[15:12] <micahg> cjwatson: WI for second britney?
[15:12] <cjwatson> yes
[15:12] <tumbleweed> any idea which spec?
[15:12] <micahg> cool
[15:12] <bjf> if we are going to take the resources we use for putting out a 6 month release to doing more SRUs and backporting more packages we should limit those to the last LTS and not to every previous release
[15:12] <cjwatson> the first rolling release session yesterday IIRC
[15:12] <vibhav> jtaylor: Do you mean a dedicated page for backported packages?
[15:12] <cjwatson> bjf: yes
[15:12] <tumbleweed> oh, didn't realise it hady any work items :)
[15:13] <micahg> cjohnston: the problem with that is that some people don't want their apps changing out from under them in an LTS
[15:13] <jtaylor> vibhav: I was maybe thinking software-center
[15:13] <cjwatson> right, new versions that introduce interface changes are exactly what some people run LTSes to specifically avoid
[15:13] <plars> hangout plugin just crashed
[15:13] <diwic> plars, works here
[15:13] <vibhav> jtaylor: ah
[15:13] <cjwatson> so I don't think we can just dump -backports into -updates
[15:13] <cjwatson> (say)
[15:13] <barry_> backports may be more difficult to support because they can sometimes cascade into updating a bigger dependency stack
[15:14] <janof> isn't the point of moving to a rolling release to free up resources, devs are not working to support 3-4 versions of Ubuntu, and doing backports will defeat this purpose?
[15:14] <diwic> plars, if you mean the live stream
[15:14] <cjwatson> janof: it's a trade-off
[15:14] <janof> the trade of is not having to deal with this when moving to a rolling release, its the main point IIRC
[15:14] <cjwatson> janof: we can't just drop stuff and leave users without a replacement that's acceptable - trying to figure that kind of thing out is exactly why we're having these discussions
[15:14] <cjohnston> janof: not really, its only going back one vs multiple
[15:15] <cjwatson> and I would hope much more targeted
[15:15] <janof> cjohnston, so the plan is to support the existing, and the next future rolling release, no past versions, is that correct?
[15:15] <ara> why we are mixing the rolling release with the LTS in terms of stability?
[15:15] <theDoctor> Am I understanding correctly: the LTS is separate from the rolling release?
[15:15] <janof> ara, exactly
[15:15] <cjwatson> at the moment developers generally SRU to every affected stable release regardless of whether there's any pressing reason to believe that there's any users
[15:16] <cjohnston> janof: continue supporting old releases until the EOL.
[15:16] <micahg> I don't think the main archive LTS criteria should change since it needs to be stable, it'll be much easier to backport newer stuff from a rolling release to the LTS though as we currently have to backport through the regular releases
[15:16] <cjwatson> janof: there is no fixed plan as yet; there are proposals
[15:16] <skellat> Upgrade from CD was deprecated once the alternate discs went away, no?
[15:16] <jasnow> security fixes too
[15:16] <janof> cjohnston, this would mean that the benefits that we desperately need for the next version, 13.04, would not be feasable until EOL of older versions.
[15:16] <cjwatson> ara: the proposal to withdraw non-LTS stable releases means that some users will need an acceptable replacement
[15:17] <cjohnston> janof: how so? not everything would get backported
[15:17] <ara> cjwatson, yes, I agree with that, but the LTS will stay stable
[15:17] <cjwatson> janof: let me be clear: we are not going to put the newest version of everything into the LTS
[15:17] <balloons> if anyone else who wants to join the hangout, let me know
[15:17] <cjwatson> but that is not to say that the current constraints are 100% fixed either
[15:17] <vibhav> jtaylor: Instead of software-center, I think it should be more sensible for a universal resource which could be accessed from everywhere
[15:18] <jasnow> upgrade from 12.04 to 13.04?
[15:19] <yofel> why would you upgrade from 12.04 to 13.04?
[15:19] <yofel> policy should still be 12.04->12.10->13.04
[15:19] <cjwatson> because in order to support upgrades from 12.04 to 14.04, upgrades from 12.04 to 13.04 ought to work
[15:19] <pitti_uds> it needs to work anyway
[15:19] <jtaylor> vibhav: that already applies to the bugtracker
[15:19] <cjwatson> it's a lot easier if you don't have to put all the upgrade support back in at the end
[15:19] <pitti_uds> as the 12.04 -> 14.04 upgrade needs to work, we need all the postinst quirks etc.
[15:19] <yofel> ok, good point
[15:19] <jasnow> brand new user - had a cd of 12.04, but thought 13.04 was the target
[15:19] <sebsebseb> hi
[15:20] <vibhav> cm-t_phone: If there is a LTS version for every seeded package, the idea sounds great
[15:20] <ara> but they might skip putting a new HWE in .3
[15:22] <pitti_uds> cjwatson: I think we should test/fix 12.04 -> daily and and 12.10 -> daily every day
[15:22] <micahg> I was envisioning daily ISOs + automatic testing of both the "stable" rolling release and the "unstable" rolling release
[15:22] <cjwatson> pitti_uds: agreed
[15:23] <barry_> well, both yesterday->today and last monthly->today
[15:23] <cjwatson> vibhav: that's massive overkill - take for example man-db, really doesn't need a separate LTS version
[15:23] <janof> the least amount of release versions surely is desirable. utilization of resources.
[15:23] <vibhav> cjwatson: Well yes, I was wrong here
[15:24] <cjwatson> And I would say that's the common case
[15:24] <barry> right, because one day, today's snapshot will *be* the monthly :)
[15:25] <janof> so two versions of the RR, daily and monthly ?
[15:26] <selena2013> greetings from Miami
[15:26] <vibhav> cjwatson: Excluding packages which dont need to have LTS versions
[15:26] <sebsebseb> selena2013: greetings from England
[15:26] <cm-t_phone> vibhav: yes, but to be honnest i try to see that from the point of a big company, because they can not spend on migrating all their custom tools and apps on monthly(but we are more in the LTS talk than SRU)
[15:27] <cjwatson> vibhav: Which is most packages
[15:27] <vibhav> Indeed
[15:27] <thomi> cjwatson: you've destroyed my world :(
[15:27] <micahg> I think that with adding the second britney migration would allow people to receive updates in a more delayed fashion which might alleviate the need for monthlies since there will be increased stability and quality in the rolling release
[15:27] <skellat> From this it really sounds like monthly roll-ups would be a nightmare
[15:27] <janof> is LTS still a term we will use with a RR?
[15:27] <ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-March/036798.html ....
[15:27] <pitti_uds> janof: it's two different things
[15:28] <pitti_uds> janof: future LTSes will still be what they are used to be, nobody was debating those
[15:28] <janof> right, but im saying if we move to RR, the LTS term will be sunsetted and only reflect past releases, is that correct?
[15:29] <pitti_uds> janof: ah, naming hasn't been discussedyet
[15:29] <cjwatson> That's not true
[15:29] <cjwatson> None of the rolling-release proposals alter the support terms of LTS releases, past or (AFAIK) future
[15:29] <pitti_uds> cjwatson: I think he means calling them "LTS" doesn't make too much sense any more, as we woudn't have other kinds of releases
[15:30] <janof> right, it defeats the entire purpose
[15:30] <cjwatson> *shrug* Might also be too confusing to change
[15:30] <cjwatson> Least of our problems, IMO :)
[15:31] <janof> fair enough
[15:31] <janof> daily builds = new beta / alpha versions
[15:32] <pitti_uds> gema_: we have several scenarios right now, like "default install", "all of main", and the huge "everything that has a .desktop file"
[15:32] <selena2013> so a regular user will choose between LTS and rolling release in the future
[15:32] <pitti_uds> gema_: these give quite some good coverage
[15:32] <vibhav> stgraber: IMO, SRU's for new versions of packages would be helpful if some interface in the old version was depreceated
[15:32] <yofel> janof: for rolling it would have to be at *least* beta quality
[15:32] <janof> selena2013, thats sorta my point, thats the same problem we have now
[15:32] <janof> that choice hurts ubuntu
[15:32] <sebsebseb> selena2013: yep I think that's the idea,  rolling release and LTS supported for years
[15:32] <vibhav> stgraber: i.e, only update those packages which have been depreceated
[15:33] <pitti_uds> stgraber: we also check for orphan or changed conffiles
[15:33] <janof> the point of moving to an RR, im not not mistaken, is to provide updates faster, and to save resources by not having to support LTS and other versions for years
[15:33] <pitti_uds> plars: do you know if we run the post-install ISO tests on the auto-upgrade tests as well? it seems we should
[15:33] <janof> LTS, the term and the physical being, wouldnt make sense with a RR
[15:33] <thomi> autopilot is already run before packages are relased...
[15:34] <mmrazik> thomi: but there would be value to run it e.g. when X is released (and there is no change to unity)
[15:34] <plars> pitti_uds: iirc it's a slightly different set of tests
[15:34] <thomi> and the tests specify the unity config to use, so I'm not sure AP is going to help you much here
[15:34] <pitti_uds> thomi: but upgrades might change some of its assumptions, so running again after e. g. an LTS->LTS upgrade makes sense
[15:34] <mmrazik> but I'm not sure if LXC /X is going to be an answer
[15:34] <selena2013> i dont have a problem with that , i would recommend newcomers LTS . But if you want the latest and greatest you can choose RR
[15:34] <plars> pitti_uds: most of the upgrade ones are around making sure that we got the kernel we expected after the upgrade, etc
[15:34] <mmrazik> we had troubles to run the tests in a VM (but maybe things changed)
[15:34] <sebsebseb> selena2013: yep that's the idea, RR instead of the six month releases
[15:34] <pitti_uds> plars: right, I see that we need some addiitonal ones; but we could also run the post-install iso tests?
[15:35] <thomi> mmrazik: sure, but you get that if you run AP as part of the X release tests.
[15:35] <plars> pitti_uds: I don't think there's anything that would keep us from expanding those
[15:35] <yofel> question: how are mesa upgrades currently tested? I remember too many cases where a new mesa version broke some rendering in a driver and caused issues in KDE. Can that be somehow catched at all?
[15:35] <mmrazik> thomi: right
[15:35] <thomi> mmrazik: I just meant that using autopilot to test the *upgrade* of unity (as it stands today) won't get you much extra
[15:36] <dobey> balloons: wouldn't the automated daily images still exist?
[15:36] <mmrazik> thomi: oh. agree with that.
[15:36] <pitti_uds> to all extends
[15:36] <dobey> the monthly would be the current daily
[15:36] <balloons> dobey, yes, I believe so
[15:37] <cjwatson> More or less
[15:37] <sebsebseb> the dialsy would become the monthly
[15:37] <cjwatson> The last proposal I saw did require a configuration tweak to dailies just before each monthly
[15:37] <cjwatson> Which is cumbersome but hard to avoid
[15:37] <gema_> cjwatson: sorry I muted your quick typing!
[15:37] <ogra_> hehe
[15:37] <cjwatson> Yeah, sorry, I could have sworn I'd muted
[15:37] <ogra_> sounded like drum fire
[15:38] <dobey> right. to avoid updating until next month
[15:38] <ogra_> why am i hearing german ads now ?
[15:38] <cjwatson> This is one of the many difficult issues with monthlies
[15:38] <cjwatson> I definitely wouldn't assume monthlies will happen, there's still lots of debate
[15:39] <dobey> right, i don't want to derail the discussion; but i'd just not do monthlies. maybe have a monthly milestone but not a special image/config for it
[15:39] <jasnow> Remember to help the devs to reproduce an issue when they get a bug by saving images/etc
[15:39] <cjwatson> Saving the image URL is generally enough
[15:39] <cjwatson> We can extract package versions from that
[15:40] <micahg> being able to match package versions to RC bugs seems important
[15:40] <cjwatson> dobey: There are many good things about having some kind of monthly rhythm, e.g. dev milestones, marketing, etc.; and I can see the point of images; I just don't buy the upgrade thing
[15:40] <cjwatson> But yeah, another discussion
[15:40] <dobey> cjwatson: right
[15:40] <dobey> cjwatson: which is why i say milestones without images is something i could get behind :)
[15:41] <vibhav> RRs should be rock solid, IMO
[15:41] <roadmr> well it depends on what the promise is
[15:41] <micahg> I would expect quality for the end users to be about equal to the regular releases we produce now
[15:41] <selena2013> thanks to all developers for the hard work .
[15:41] <roadmr> if you promise RRs will be stable and usable, that's what I expect
[15:41] <micahg> s/about/at least/
[15:41] <roadmr> if you tell me they're to be treated as the current, daily development images where things *may* break, then I'd expect that
[15:41] <jasnow> draw a picture
[15:43] <ara> roadmr, ++
[15:43] <dobey> do-release-upgrade every 2 years instead of every 6 months, basically
[15:43] <dobey> janof: ^^
[15:44] <cjwatson> We haven't drawn a picture yet because there are still about a dozen different opinions :-)
[15:44] <chiluk_> how are we going to provide hardware enablement kernels back to LTS in this new scheme? Similar to the quantal-lts-backports kernel..
[15:44] <cjwatson> chiluk_: There was a session end of yesterday about that
[15:44] <chiluk_> nuts... I was on a plane.
[15:44] <micahg> most server users are probably on the LTS now
[15:44] <wendar> most ... yeah
[15:44] <ogra_> chiluk_, there should be a video of that session
[15:44] <wendar> server is a different world than desktop
[15:44] <chiluk_> yes a lot of them are..
[15:44] <dobey> servers not running LTS already are either personal home server users, or crazy :)
[15:45] <pitti_uds> I can't imagine many production servers who'd want to be rolling
[15:45] <chiluk_> but a lot of them are running quantal backports kernels as well.
[15:45] <cjwatson> chiluk_: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21598/foundations-1303-hwe-stack/
[15:45] <micahg> those not on the LTS should be able to handle any bumps that regular end users would be able to handle
[15:45] <barry> dobey: even home servers use lts :)
[15:45] <ara> for business desktops will be the same
[15:45] <ara> lts to lts
[15:45] <dobey> barry: i do yes. but some people apparently don't
[15:45] <pitti_uds> thanks
[15:45] <ara> thanks!
[15:45] <dshimer> The last 4 minutes sound like: As a nobody end user, daily (1 desktop, 1 laptop) I have two choices. Scary - developer build take my chances (I'm willing but nervous) or Sad - I only get new stuff every two years.
[15:45] <thomi> o/
[15:45] <vibhav> o/
[15:45] <jtaylor> whats the name of the next lts going to be? raring?
[15:45] <dobey> dshimer: that's how it is now
[15:45] <balloons> dshimer, my expectation is rolling = non-lts stable
[15:46] <cjwatson> jtaylor: We'll see
[15:46] <balloons> not developer edition scary
[15:46] <balloons> thanks everyone
[15:46] <jtaylor> cjwatson: it must be raring or "larger" for daily ppas which use ~raring suffix
[15:46] <cjwatson> jtaylor: We clearly can't decrement
[15:46] <gema_> balloons: scary salmon?
[15:46] <dobey> jtaylor: it probably won't be 'rickroll'
[15:46] <jtaylor> lucky raring is smaller than most other "r" words :)
[15:46] <cjwatson> jtaylor: But that suffix is horribly misguided for obvious reasons
[15:46] <balloons> gema_, indeed!
[15:47] <gema_> I am glad I don't have to name them x)
[15:47] <sebsebseb> dshimer: a bit like contract phones to an extent, 24 months contract is quite standard, then you may buy a new phone after
[15:47] <cjwatson> jtaylor: It needs to be changed to ~ubuntuYY.MM before we reach U
[15:47] <jtaylor> cjwatson: yes but thats a launchpad issue so far I know
[15:47] <cjwatson> jtaylor: Yes
[15:47] <cjwatson> Anyway, LP series have a fixed name; renaming would be madness
[15:48] <dobey> i don't think it really matters if it's ~rickroll or ~ubuntuYY.MM
[15:48] <cjwatson> Hopefully nobody will require us to do that :)
[15:48] <dobey> well, until after z
[15:48] <cjwatson> dobey: It matters once we ... yes
[15:48] <cjwatson> Which is why I've been trying to fix this for a while before it becomes a crisis :)
[15:48] <dobey> :)
[15:48] <cjwatson> We fixed backports a year or two ago
[15:50] <dobey> i imagine it's not really that hard to fix the recipe builder code though.
[15:50] <dobey> anyway, i guess we need to stop discussing that here now :)
[15:50] <cjwatson> Shouldn't be, just a matter of finding people to maintain and deploy it given lack of LP manpower at the moment
[15:50] <dobey> right
[15:50] <cjwatson> There's been an RT open for some kind of upgrade there for months
[15:51] <cjwatson> But as you say
[15:51] <dobey> ciao :)
[15:51] <yofel> jtaylor: I did file a bug about launchpad not using ~ubuntu..., it's low though
[15:52] <roadmr> cprofitt: hello
[15:53] <balloons> cprofitt, zyga-uds,roadmr hangout is up
[15:54] <roadmr> balloons: thanks
[15:56] <balloons> I'll start it in a few
[15:58] <ara> who is the track lead in charge for this one?
[15:58] <ara> can I get a hangout link, please?
[15:58] <roadmr> cprofitt: are you around?
[16:00] <balloons> ara, sent
[16:00] <balloons> anyone else who wants in the hangout, speak up :-)
[16:01] <balloons> starting in a moment
[16:03] <balloons> we should be live now :-)
[16:04] <jedimike_> ara: hi! could I get an invite to the hangout?
[16:06] <jasnow> Is this the public web site for Friendly? https://friendly.ubuntu.com/
[16:06] <balloons> jasnow, that's correct
[16:07] <jasnow> thanks
[16:10] <roadmr> cprofitt: \o/
[16:10] <jasnow> like "UPS Tracking" link ;o)
[16:11] <balloons> ara, try turning off your video to lower your bandwidth needs
[16:14] <jasnow> Can you report the submit status without the user's identify?
[16:15] <bobthebobber> invite please
[16:15] <roadmr> jasnow: status as in, it was accepted/processed, or rejected due to failing tests? is this what you mean?
[16:16] <balloons> anyone else who wants in the hangout, speak up :-)
[16:16] <balloons> bobthebobber, inviting
[16:16] <jasnow> yes
[16:23] <rrnwexec> one thing to consider is the difference between "works without any tweaks" and "works if you apply some patches, additional drivers, confi changes"
[16:23] <rrnwexec> *config
[16:24] <rrnwexec> Ubuntu Certified handles this by saying "Certified (with Notes)"
[16:25] <cprofitt> rrnwexec: yep
[16:25] <cprofitt> we can do that as well on Friendly
[16:26] <rrnwexec> QUESTION: what about sending incomplete results? if I only run 3 tests (out of 10), shouldn't i be able to submit what i have done?
[16:27] <cprofitt> rrnwexec: I ping them on your question in a second
[16:29] <roadmr> deliberately crashing checkbox!
[16:35] <rrnwexec> there is still a theme out there that says "ubuntu works on everything." Improving SEO of Ubuntu Friendly would help, but we also need a strong(er) awareness campaign.
[16:37] <cprofitt> rrnwexec: you can help us with the SEO
[16:37] <cprofitt> :)
[16:38] <rrnwexec> cprofitt: yes, i can blog about it, post to lists, etc. that may help.
[16:38] <ara> roadmr, doesn't checkbox already support it?
[16:38] <balloons> ara, roadmr I believe I've resumed tests before
[16:38] <jasnow> "black hole problem"
[16:38] <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Is Ubuntu Friendly submission an Ubuntu Accomplishment "trophy"?
[16:39] <roadmr> ara: resuming tests? yes, but the feature is geared towards resuming after a crash
[16:39] <roadmr> ara: cprofitt was talking about "oh crap, I need to go now, I want to pause the test and resume later" - we don't accomodate that use case
[16:40] <roadmr> ara: the only option as he mentioned is deliberately crashing checkbox %)
[16:41] <ara> jedimike_, searching in Google for ubuntu Acer Aspire 3610 brings the staging site first :-\
[16:41] <roadmr> \o/
[16:42] <jedimike_> ara: oh dear... well at least we know the pages are SEO ready...
[16:42] <cprofitt> we need to both get more results on the UF site ... and increase SEO
[16:42] <ara> jedimike_, maybe it was only deployed to staging? (seo capabilities)
[16:42] <swaveck> greetings to zyga ;)
[16:43] <jasnow> work with LoCo Advocates
[16:44] <roadmr> rrnwexec: for your question, so it doesn't scroll up and disappear (re: accomplishments). Answer is "No" :(
[16:45] <jasnow> check before buying on Craigslist
[16:46] <balloons> first things first should be to fix the submission process I'd think
[16:48] <rrnwexec> when the site is ready, and the submission process is better, we could spin up a Global "Test Your Hardware" Day.
[16:48] <rrnwexec> similar to a Jam, but with less jam ;)
[16:48] <bobthebobber> why dont we incorporate ubuntu friendly into the installer?
[16:48] <SergioMeneses> rrnwexec, +1
[16:48] <ssbob_> +1 bobthebobber
[16:49] <bobthebobber> ubuntu friendly, now friendly +++
[16:49] <roadmr> bobthebobber: poking the hardware in ways that can make it fails or crash at install time... fun
[16:50] <bobthebobber> roadmr: ah yeah, good point, but maybe after the install, and before first boot?
[16:51] <roadmr> bobthebobber: an interesting goal would be making this runnable from the live cd. so boot the "try ubuntu" thing, select "test your system"
[16:51] <ssbob_> or a slide show page talking about it, as a todo item after first boot
[16:51] <roadmr> bobthebobber: right now it doesn't work very well mainly because it needs write access to stuff; for instance, if you booted from USB stick it will be unable to test usb ports :/ (ironic because it's 100% certain that they work in that scenario)
[16:51] <SergioMeneses> I think the slide would be the best
[16:52] <roadmr> ssbob_, SergioMeneses : that'd be awesome exposure, I'd probably wait until the testing/submitting experience is better
[16:53] <roadmr> otherwise we'll become the most hated group in Ubuntu :(
[16:53] <ssbob_> and or make it a feature in the software center (as part of the inventory step)
[16:53] <ssbob_> something you can toggle on and off depending on paranoia levels
[16:54] <balloons> http://www.canonical.com/contributors/faq
[16:54] <balloons> You DO retain copyright
[16:54] <SergioMeneses> roadmr, you're right but is a great idea :)
[16:58] <cprofitt> thanks everyone
[16:59] <SergioMeneses> see you later!
[18:03] <philipballew> Looks like this is gonna be an interesting session
[18:09] <tumbleweed> pity that it overlapps with the other rolling session
[18:09] <micahg> yeah
[18:09] <skellat> It was this or overlap with Jono Q&A
[18:10] <tumbleweed> pff jono :P
[18:12] <jono> skellat, hey
[18:12] <jono> are you on G+?
[18:13] <skellat> yes
[18:13] <jono> skellat, reload the summit page and you should a link to join
[18:14] <jono> valorie, can you join the hangout?
[18:14] <jono> Riddell, did you want to join, I sent an invitew
[18:15] <valorie> how do I join it?
[18:15] <knome> hello people. are we doing the hangout?
[18:15] <baizon> yes
[18:15] <jono> valorie, join https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/e5b5813205d5c1063626f2001b8e4e51d3fd95ad?authuser=0&hl=en
[18:15] <ElderDryas> yes jono
[18:15] <jono> knome, want to join?
[18:16] <ElderDryas> names and nicks?
[18:16] <knome> jono, not really.
[18:16] <jono> knome, np
[18:16] <knome> jono, i don't want to join G+.
[18:16] <jono> knome, np
[18:16] <valorie> there we go
[18:16] <knome> well, it is a problem to be exact.
[18:16] <knome> but this is not the time or place to discuss it.
[18:17] <jono> knome, ok
[18:17] <knome> who's the one in the middle?
[18:17] <valorie> shall I put our list of worries on the pad?
[18:17] <knome> o/
[18:17] <valorie> or share the google doc
[18:18] <Mirv> valorie: I think pad'd be better
[18:19] <tumbleweed> skellat: actually, the monthly discussion got postponed
[18:20] <Unit193> knome: skellat.
[18:21] <knome> yeah, i figured that out ;)
[18:21] <micahg> invite please?
[18:21] <knome> yay micahg
[18:25] <micahg> we can't do library transitions in a stable release, there might be an option of using a derived distro to allow for targeted additions while benefiting from the base LTS platform
[18:25] <knome> jono, can you invite micahg to the session?
[18:25] <rickspencer3-uds> hi all
[18:25] <rickspencer3-uds> sorry I am late
[18:26] <jono> knome, sure
[18:26] <jono> micahg, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/e5b5813205d5c1063626f2001b8e4e51d3fd95ad?authuser=0&hl=en
[18:27] <micahg> working on it
[18:28] <rickspencer3-uds> but doing a derived release would have the unfortunate consequence that flavors would have to do all the support for their own archives
[18:28] <Mirv> jono: change picture to the speaker as well
[18:29] <knome> rickspencer3-uds, we're not getting much support to keep the xfce stuff up-to-date now either
[18:29] <knome> Mirv, o/
[18:29] <yofel> are updates synced from the main archive for derived distros?
[18:29] <Mirv> knome: \o
[18:29] <rickspencer3-uds> I can speak to that
[18:30] <rickspencer3-uds> jono: I'm happy to speak to that if you guys want
[18:30] <knome> yes, that's good.
[18:30] <rickspencer3-uds> I'm happy to type or join as you wish
[18:31] <jono> rickspencer3-uds, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/e5b5813205d5c1063626f2001b8e4e51d3fd95ad?authuser=0&hl=en
[18:33] <knome> the communication was lacking.
[18:33] <knome> and too late.
[18:34] <jono> knome, cut him some slack, people make mistakes
[18:34] <jono> knome, the point is, lets have the discussion
[18:34] <jono> pointing fingers doesnt help
[18:34] <knome> i'm not pointing fingers
[18:35] <knome> i'm saying it would have been more fair to do this transition 6 months later or so
[18:35] <jono> knome, what transition?
[18:35] <knome> sorry, the proposal to do the transition
[18:35] <knome> atm i think we're in a hurry
[18:35] <Mirv> this is just a subtopic, but there are ~5 ~free software distros for mobile/tablet - Android (+Replicant), Firefox OS, Mer/Sailfish, Ubuntu, Tizen, of which only one is currently released on devices and owns the whole market. Ubuntu and Firefox OS are the closest next ones, Tizen will surely come to alive.
[18:35] <jono> knome, but this is the point, it is just a proposal - nothing will get implemented unless the time is right
[18:36] <Mirv> I'd love to see Kubuntu having the product quality Plasma Active release etc
[18:36] <knome> and it's possible that more bad decisions are going to be made, because we need to make them quick
[18:36] <micahg> knome: it's not decided when the transition will happen, that's part of what's being discussed ATM
[18:36] <knome> micahg, yes, in understand that, but see my last comment ^
[18:36] <jono> knome, the decision will only be made if it is right for the project - but it is important that we have the discussion
[18:36] <knome> jono, the canonical project or the community project?
[18:36] <Mirv> (just talking about the culture shift)
[18:37] <knome> (with no pointing fingers, would just be good if that was communicated clearly)
[18:37] <jono> knome, they should be the same
[18:37] <knome> jono, i couldn't agree more.
[18:37] <jono> I am talking about the shared project, Canonical one part of it
[18:37] <knome> ok
[18:37] <jono> lets focus on the proposal and evaluate it's merit
[18:40] <tumbleweed> a derived distro lets you do new releases of your desktop, on the LTS Ubuntu base
[18:41] <yofel> again, are updates synced from the main archive for derived distros? If that's a case, I otherwise agree with all points micahg made
[18:42] <yofel> rickspencer3: make that ~7-9, not all users like to upgrade at release day
[18:42] <knome> or can
[18:42] <yofel> but I agree that it doesn't have to be 18 months
[18:43] <knome> agreed with that
[18:43] <knome> but isn't the support period virtually a decision for every flavor separately?
[18:44] <knome> except of course new updates being added
[18:44]  * balloons pops in
[18:45] <micahg> knome: no, if Canonical isn't providing security support for the base OS, the flavor support is basically worthless
[18:45] <tumbleweed> ^ that
[18:45] <knome> micahg, yes, that's the only drawback.
[18:45] <knome> right.
[18:46] <knome> see yofel's comment before on 7-9 months
[18:47] <GridCube> but if the "archive" is going to a complete different place than all the rest of the developers of desktops...
[18:48] <knome> is it at all possible that the support time would be any longer than 6mth?
[18:48] <knome> to support the transition.
[18:48] <balloons> who would use a 6month supported released?
[18:49] <tumbleweed> rickspencer3: it's one thing to be striving for that, it's another to say "we're there"
[18:49] <GridCube> people who would also use a rolling release?
[18:49] <Mirv> like the kernel is considering "unstable-3.9" kind of thing in parallel
[18:49] <balloons> if your basing something off a stable supported distro, dropping it after 6-8 months seems a bit off
[18:49] <micahg> I think most regular users are upgrading shortly after the new release comes out
[18:49] <Mirv> so to provide both releases and another path for people who want the betas
[18:49] <micahg> once they're sure that it won't break their system
[18:50] <knome> micahg, yeah, i'd say that timespan is about 1mth
[18:50] <GridCube> but you dont
[18:50] <GridCube> you get it every 6 months, or so, or updates
[18:50] <balloons> sure.. but i think that not having to upgrade would better serve that type of user, don't you think?
[18:50] <rickspencer3> hey tumbleweed ... so I worry that if we wait until "we are there" we'll never really commit to being there
[18:51] <knome> balloons, not update for 2 years? that's a bit harsh.
[18:51] <balloons> knome, no I mean as opposed to constant 6 month upgrades, just be on rolling and never upgrade really
[18:51] <micahg> balloons: depends, most people are on regular (interim) releases to get the latest without the risk of a breaking system
[18:51] <balloons> just stay small constant updates
[18:52] <balloons> if you want stability, your on the lts.. and it gets point releases to stay up to date
[18:52] <yofel> balloons: the questions on library transitions etc. haven't been answered there.
[18:52] <GridCube> i use lts on a machine and update the other, i like to have a stable system and i dont apply updates as they come
[18:52] <yofel> 2-year only release might make sense for unity
[18:52] <balloons> just trying to figure out what a really short lifecycle distro buys us
[18:52] <yofel> it doesn't for KDE
[18:52] <GridCube> but i could, easily
[18:52] <knome> nor xfce, i think
[18:52] <yofel> on the other hand, just supporting a kubuntu release until the next one is out would work
[18:52] <knome> micahg, feel free to disagree.
[18:53] <tumbleweed> rickspencer3: we can set ourselves a target of a release cycle to get there, rather than needing to be there today
[18:53] <balloons> basically, I hate to see us put effort into things and then drop them so quickly
[18:53] <matzipan_> yofel: 2 year release would probably not be good at the rate of changes in unity right now....
[18:53] <yofel> if we loose releases, we loose the beta-time integration Q/A time that we currently have to catch all the releases
[18:54] <yofel> matzipan_: true, but that's again the question on how much changes and possible breakage/regressions a user likes
[18:55] <matzipan_> well, judging by the way 13.04 went... for me updating from 12.10 to 13.04 in mid february only did good
[18:55] <yofel> in kubuntu we had too many cases where a late X/Mesa upload in the cycle broke KDE/Kwin on some drivers
[18:56] <matzipan_> but i'm only talking about vanilla ubuntu
[18:56] <rickspencer3> hi tumbleweed
[18:56] <yofel> session: nothing new really
[18:57] <yofel> matzipan_: sure, but it would be nice to find a compromise that works for everyone
[18:58] <yofel> I do believe that canonical has the manpower and infrastructure to manage a rolling release. The flavours don't really
[18:58] <knome> yeah.
[18:58] <yofel> thanks guys for the session!
[18:58] <knome> thanks
[18:58] <matzipan_> meh there should be a middleway for making a snapshot that flavours could possibly use
[18:58] <balloons> the flavors plan is really interesting.. so in summary (sorry I missed the first part), you don't see a way to do it?
[18:59] <skellat> yofel: It is on record and Mr. Spencer had an opportunity to participate.  Too much is draft stages right now but what needed to be accomplished was, I think.
[18:59] <micahg> yofel: I think we can integrate most of the concepts from the rolling release into a new proposal which keeps regular(interim) releases which I'll pen to ubuntu-devel, kinda the best of both world
[18:59] <micahg> s
[18:59] <balloons> I've always liked the LTS model for flavors honestly.. i think you can put a lot of value add that way, putting your stuff on top of the lts base
[18:59] <yofel> micahg: right, thanks for you and rickspencer3 for working that out
[18:59] <knome> for xubuntu, the "interim" releases have been pretty much the same as LTS
[19:00] <micahg> rickspencer3: thanks for joining, it was nice to hear your thoughts directly
[19:00] <rickspencer3> no worried micahg
[19:00] <micahg> knome: no, with the LTS, Xubuntu was cautious in moving forward with the latest Xfce
[19:00] <yofel> balloons: kubuntu though primarily focused on the "interim" releases. The LTS is good to have, but not treated really any different from the other releases
[19:00] <knome> micahg, well... yes. but i was referring the the quality
[19:01] <balloons> yofel, yes, that is true.. and a valid way to do it certainly. you simply support/supported LTS like a normal release.. it wasn't special
[19:01] <micahg> knome: well, maybe from our work point of view, but I see the core OS as having more quality which improves Xubuntu's quality
[19:01] <knome> micahg, sure
[19:01] <balloons> wouldn't you rather support a single stable base you can update over a longer period tho? rather than roll with the new stable's every 6 months?
[19:02] <yofel> balloons: we do try to keep the LTS updated more than the other release, but that's about it. As for KDE, their release support time is so short, that we really don't need 18month of kubuntu release support
[19:02] <shadeslayer> ^
[19:02] <knome> i think a 6 month cadence helps with planning and setting the goals with a smaller team
[19:02] <shadeslayer> KDE's support cycle is only for 6 months
[19:02] <micahg> balloons: the problem is if your base is always moving, it's hard to roll it out (think System76)
[19:02] <yofel> balloons: in fact, as far as upstream goes, kubuntu 12.10 is already unsupported
[19:02] <balloons> I guess what I'm saying/asking, what's stopping you from staying on 6 month cycles.. but pushing to the LTS base?
[19:02] <shadeslayer> so it actually helps us to have a 6 month support according to KDE upstream
[19:03] <balloons> meaning, kubuntu 4.10 on 12.04?
[19:03] <shadeslayer> s/according to/in accordance with/
[19:03] <yofel> balloons: at least KDE upstream doesn't like "old" libraries :/
[19:03] <shadeslayer> ^
[19:03] <micahg> balloons: we'd lose the ability to work in the archive itself and have to devote resources that could be spent stabilizing the devel release on backporting to the LTS
[19:03] <tumbleweed> balloons: also, that requires a PPA / dervied distro, and would currently disqualify an Ubuntu flavour
[19:03] <yofel> balloons: so we would have to take care of many library transitions ourselves possibly
[19:03] <balloons> yofel, sure, but you could push what you need as part of it.. it would be a big deal to do it
[19:03] <yofel> it is a BIG deal on the Q/A side
[19:04] <yofel> we would essentially re-create the beta-freeze time on the LTS every time
[19:04] <balloons> yofel, hehe.. I know.. it would be big.. the question is, is it bigger/harder than what you do know?
[19:04] <balloons> *now
[19:04] <micahg> yofel: as long as the libraries live happily together, a full transition wouldn't be necessary
[19:04] <Unit193> balloons: Basically, I like to be able to use a computer without fixing it every morning/day, but also able to use new things (like the opus support in VLC)
[19:04] <yofel> it's not bigger than the regular release, but there everyone works on getting the same things stable
[19:04] <micahg> Unit193: didn't we get opus support in backports for vlc?
[19:05] <yofel> so we would have to do more ourselves
[19:05] <yofel> micahg: ok, that much is true
[19:05] <balloons> I'm really wondering if it wouldn't be possible
[19:05] <dholbach> you're out of time - next session starts :)
[19:05] <Unit193> micahg: I think not, as libopus1 would have to go as well, I the bug report you commented in.
[19:05] <yofel> heh, sorry dholbach
[19:05] <Unit193> micahg: I could easily be wrong!
[19:05] <balloons> I'd like to see some good thoughts around that.. I feel like you could participate in the rolling release and then push it as a point release update to the LTS
[19:05] <balloons> and keep stability.. QA would be easier in many ways.. but who knows
[19:06] <balloons> I think it would be possible anyway.. possible.. which is better than completely impossible
[19:06] <micahg> yofel: anyways, I'm hoping with rickspencer3's support that we can move away from this idea of forking and move towards a shorter regular release that's seamlessly upgradeable to the next release
[19:06] <yofel> it would be *possible*, but not something we would really like to do
[19:06] <yofel> micahg++
[19:06] <ayr_ton> "too many windows"
[19:07] <ayr_ton> dholbach: \o/
[19:07] <balloons> yofel, micahg, et la.. thanks for discussing with me
[19:07] <balloons> I appreciate your insights
[19:07] <yofel> sure :)
[19:07] <balloons> to the next session
[19:09] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityWebsite
[19:11] <dholbach> Mockup 2011: http://ubuntuone.com/1vNud7sJ1rRUj5givnTX5q
[19:11] <dholbach> Jono's announce: http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/12/09/improving-community-getting-involved-documentation/
[19:12] <tiagoscd|uds_> hey guys :)
[19:12] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityWebsite
[19:12] <dholbach> hey tiagoscd - what to join?
[19:13] <tiagoscd|uds_> dholbach: sorry, again at work :/
[19:13] <dholbach> tiagoscd: do we have a link to the canonistack instance?
[19:13] <dholbach> tiagoscd: não há problema!
[19:14] <mhall119|uds> paste here or in the pad
[19:14] <philipballew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityWebsite
[19:14] <dholbach> mhall119|uds, want to join in as well?
[19:15] <tiagoscd|uds_> dholbach: I don't have the link
[19:15] <dholbach> tiagoscd: ok
[19:15] <tiagoscd|uds_> I'll try to found it
[19:17] <tiagoscd> dholbach: it's correct? http://chinstrap.canonical.com
[19:17] <mhall119|uds> rrnwexec: that's the canonistack I was working on
[19:18] <mhall119|uds> rrnwexec: http://<IP_ADDRESS>/
[19:18] <mhall119|uds> the plan with this instance was to load it with content, then have IS just copy it all into production
[19:19] <mhall119|uds> this is a stand-alone site from ubuntu.com
[19:19] <mhall119|uds> we can manage it fully ourselves
[19:19] <mhall119|uds> no
[19:19] <mhall119|uds> technically I'm not working today
[19:19] <mhall119|uds> if anybody wants access to the WP instance on canonistack, just email me
[19:21] <kalenjohnson> streeeeetch
[19:22] <mhall119|uds> QUESTION: Is there a mailing list, irc channel, some other way of keeping up with the work going on?
[19:22] <kalenjohnson> What needs to be helped with? just content? the website overall?
[19:26] <dholbach> http://ubuntuone.com/1vNud7sJ1rRUj5givnTX5q
[19:27] <tiagoscd|uds_> hey guys, I need to go, but I like to say that I'm available to help on page revamping
[19:28] <tiagoscd|uds_> see you
[19:28] <dholbach> tiagoscd: thanks a lot!
[19:29] <mhall119|uds> I can get an example of the design team's personas
[19:29] <tiagoscd> dholbach: you're welcome. gute nacht :D
[19:30] <dholbach> tiagoscd, can't remember what "good night" was in  Portuguese :-/
[19:31] <tiagoscd> dholbach: it's "boa noite"
[19:31] <tiagoscd> :)
[19:31] <mhall119> It shouldn't ask, but it should provide paths to get them to the data they likely want
[19:31] <dholbach> kalenjohnson, both :)
[19:32] <mhall119> I can provide example personas from the design team
[19:33] <mhall119> but we'll need to create some community-specific ones
[19:34] <mhall119> dholbach: those are the personas we need :)
[19:34] <dholbach> mhall119, hum hum :)
[19:36] <kalenjohnson> contributing needs to be exciting!
[19:36] <niemeyer> kalenjohnson: +1
[19:39] <niemeyer> Knowing what was going behind the scene, I have to say I can't see much to sweat about regarding mir. It's a tricky project, and some people were trying to figure things out.. the decision to take it more seriously was made *now*, and that's why an announcement was made and why the plan is being opened up.
[19:41] <dholbach> niemeyer, which discussion are you in? is this about ubuntu.com/community?
[19:41] <niemeyer> LOL
[19:42] <niemeyer> dholbach: Sorry
[19:42] <niemeyer> This was about community
[19:42] <niemeyer> dholbach: Just the wrong community session, sorry
[19:42]  * dholbach hugs niemeyer
[19:42] <mhall119> dholbach: we should probably start making work items too
[19:42] <dholbach> thought so :)
[19:42] <mhall119> +1 for flat
[19:42]  * niemeyer hugs dholbach back
[19:44] <mhall119> lets not block on the design team though, they're going to be very busy
[19:44] <mhall119> rrnwexec: to a large extent the personas are going to determine what content we need
[19:45] <mhall119> rrnwexec: ^^
[19:45] <TadeasParik> there are the local version of the community pages too, our Czech community has these pages done... are there any plans to translate them also into other languages?
[19:45]  * ayr_ton thinking
[19:46] <TadeasParik> I mean share this concept with the other LoCo teams...
[19:46] <mhall119> TadeasParik: Wordpress doesn't really make translation easy
[19:46] <kalenjohnson> It seems like the focus should be on new user content first, as that seems to be why most users are coming. Once they see if the community wiki is helpful, they will be regular, possibly contribute more...
[19:47] <kalenjohnson> mhall119, I haven't worked with translations, but I know it can handle it. How easy it is, I don't know...
[19:47] <mhall119> kalenjohnson: I'm inclined to direct people to loco teams and loco team sites for that
[19:48] <mhall119> they'll be able to manage it better than we could in one place
[19:48] <TadeasParik> mhall119, you can create a totally new concept and use another system... not only wordpress... I meant to share this idea with other LoCos...
[19:50] <mhall119> every other part of ubuntu.com is English
[19:51] <mhall119> I'm not sure how somebody would find the community site except for going through an english-only page
[19:51] <kalenjohnson> I would think translations would come from the English pages
[19:59] <ayr_ton> dholbach: lets create a trello board for review the content
[20:02] <ayr_ton> o/


[00:33] <subspider> how do i know if my graphic is working properlly
[00:33] <subspider> cus i think its not
[00:42] <well_laid_lawn> check the log to see the driver being used maybe
[04:16] <manbullphoenix> So how's this thing work?  Like AOL chat rooms back in the day?
[04:28] <well_laid_lawn> it's a support channel - someone needs support and asks - someone responds :]
[06:00] <ubuXubu> good morning
[10:06] <sasaniak> hello
[10:07] <sasaniak> i have a small problem and it would help a lot if you had some advice:
[10:07] <well_laid_lawn> you'll need to tell us about it sasaniak :]
[10:08] <sasaniak> today i rebooted with the latest kernel update and my wifi stopped working - network manager says that wireless is disabled
[10:08] <sasaniak> rfkill list states that 1: phy0: Wireless LAN
[10:08] <sasaniak> 	Hard blocked: yes
[10:09] <sasaniak> i tried googling, tried some advice with rmmod-ing and modprobing modules for hp_accel and iwlagn
[10:09] <sasaniak> but that didn't help
[10:10] <well_laid_lawn> I don't do wireless - if noone else answers now ask again in a bit :]
[10:10] <Sysi> sasaniak: right click on icon in panel
[10:10] <Sysi> "activate wireless" cecked?
[10:10] <sasaniak> Sysi: it's greyed out, can't click
[10:11] <sasaniak> also,
[10:11] <sasaniak> sudo ifconfig wlan0 up
[10:11] <sasaniak> SIOCSIFFLAGS: Unknown error 132
[10:11] <sasaniak> tried googling for that too, found some open bugs in ubuntu but my HW configuration was different so I didn't know if i should file a new bug report or add a comment or what :)
[10:13] <sasaniak> my humble assumption is that the "hardware switch" (a button on my laptop) doesn't work for some reason (maybe an updated package with a bug)
[11:11] <YeahRight> how can i administer my xubuntu installation from xfce desktop?
[11:13] <YeahRight> google suggests there seems to have to be some system -> administration menu but i dont seem to have that?
[11:13] <Sysi> YeahRight: what do ypu mean by administrating
[11:13] <YeahRight> configure
[11:13] <YeahRight> hostname for example
[11:13] <YeahRight> from the gui
[11:14] <YeahRight> thanks for replying btw :-)
[11:14] <Sysi> install system-config-something packages
[11:14] <Sysi> maybe with those
[11:14] <Sysi> xubuntu doesn't have yast :P
[11:14] <YeahRight> thats not insatlled by default then?
[11:15] <Sysi> not at least all of them
[11:21] <Sysi> idk if you even could use yast on anything but suse
[11:27] <YeahRight> well it sounds weird to me i cant configure anything from a gui in xubuntu..
[11:28] <sasaniak> well
[11:28] <sasaniak> hostname is something that you change once a year maybe
[11:29] <YeahRight> well you need to configure it when setting it up
[11:29] <sasaniak> you usually configure it while installing :)
[11:29] <YeahRight> and network settings need to be configured too
[11:29] <YeahRight> yeah well something changed
[11:29] <sasaniak> you can use network-manager (it should be installed, it's the icon with two monitors)
[11:29] <Sysi> see what you can do with system-config-network
[11:30] <YeahRight> i just would have thought i wouldnt have to need to edit all kinds of config files manually in xubuntu
[11:30] <Sysi> *buntus aren't really made for hc configuring
[11:30] <YeahRight> whats "system-config-network"?
[11:30] <Sysi> install it and see
[11:30] <YeahRight> with synaptics?
[11:31] <YeahRight> doesnt seem to be there
[11:33] <sasaniak> YeahRight: you can't configure it through network-manager ?
[11:33] <Sysi> not very much but something
[11:34] <YeahRight> i dont see any network manager either
[11:34] <Sysi> icon in panel
[11:34] <sasaniak> it's an icon with two monitors
[11:34] <sasaniak> if you don't have it (which would be weird), try installing network-manager
[11:34] <YeahRight> ok i see that
[11:34] <Sysi> (i'm comfy with config files, they're usually easier than most GUIs)
[11:35] <well_laid_lawn> +1
[11:35] <YeahRight> doesnt let me configure much..can only disconnect
[11:35] <YeahRight> and config files are only easier when you already know all about them
[11:36] <sasaniak> YeahRight: right click on it, there should be something like "settings"
[11:37] <sasaniak> or change connections
[11:37] <sasaniak> or something like that
[11:38] <YeahRight> you're right
[11:38] <YeahRight> but it doesn allow me to change the hostname
[11:38] <sasaniak> well, not the hostname, i thought you wanted to change some network settings too
[11:38] <sasaniak> 12:29 < YeahRight> and network settings need to be configured too
[11:39] <YeahRight> yeah i was interested in that too :-) so thanks
[11:39] <sasaniak> you're welcome ;)
[11:39] <well_laid_lawn> !hostname
[11:40] <YeahRight> i guess xubuntu isnt too user friendly with respect to a gui then
[11:40] <YeahRight> i'll do that then ubottu .. thanks
[11:40] <well_laid_lawn> changing hostname is the same in all ubuntus
[11:41] <YeahRight> i was just expecting some general place to look at / change certain system settings
[11:42] <well_laid_lawn> part  of what makes xubuntu a lighter distro is the lack of reliance on "middleman" apps
[11:43] <YeahRight> i understand that but being able to modify system settings seemed too essential to me to just leave out :-)
[11:43] <YeahRight> i mean other less relevant stuff is still included in menus
[12:00] <YeahRight> another question .. how can i force a disk check the next reboot?
[12:02] <well_laid_lawn> YeahRight:  try    sudo  shutdown -rF now
[12:05] <YeahRight> well_laid_lawn : thanks for the reply
[12:05] <well_laid_lawn> np :]
[12:06] <YeahRight> well google suggested that too and i did do that but the weird thing is i cannot see any proof afterwards it did happen
[12:06] <YeahRight> and while booting it doesnt show anything either
[12:06] <YeahRight> i checked /var/log/fschk
[12:06] <well_laid_lawn> you have the splash screen running?
[12:08] <YeahRight> i think so..can i disable that somehow?
[12:08] <YeahRight> xubutu is running in vmware
[12:10] <well_laid_lawn> at the grub menu select the kernel you want and press   e   (for edit) - arrow down to the kernel boot line and press   e   - move to the end of the line and remove the word splash - hit b for boot   iirc
[12:11] <well_laid_lawn> you might have to hold the shift key down at boot to get the grub menu
[12:11] <YeahRight> cool..clear insructions :-)
[12:11] <YeahRight> thank you
[12:11] <well_laid_lawn> it's been a while since I've done that
[13:56]  * Succorbenoth waves at everyone!
[18:38] <likemindead> Any PCSX-Reloaded users in here? I just installed the latest version on my laptop (Xubuntu 10.04) and the audio is all screwy. FF7 played fine but Castlevania: SoTN is awful.
[18:44]  * eeffoc waves at everyone! 'ello.
[18:45] <Sysi> eeffoc: why you do that and then leave?
[18:45] <Sysi> different nick last time but same host
[18:46] <eeffoc> I'm remoted into my server at home; networking issues. Gotta love comcast.
[18:46] <eeffoc> Just switched my /nick.
[18:46] <eeffoc> maybe, can't remember; lot
[18:47] <eeffoc> s  of problems happening, lol.
[18:47]  * eeffoc apologizes.
[18:47] <Sysi> i just wondered :)
[18:47] <eeffoc> How
[18:48] <eeffoc> 's it going?
[18:48] <eeffoc> Have you been using xfce/xubuntu for a while now?
[18:51] <rgnr> !ru
[18:56] <Sysi> !botabuse | FYI
[19:03] <MichealH> Sysi: It seems he calls that factiod to get accessto the channel
[19:03] <Sysi> what?
[19:04] <MichealH> He calls !ru to get into the #ubuntu-ru channel
[19:04] <Sysi> he can do it in query too
[19:04] <MichealH> He obviously uses xchat and the convenience of right clicking ... I understand
[19:05] <MichealH> We need someone to tell him
[19:05] <MichealH> Give him a heads up
[19:05]  * MichealH gets out Google Translate
[19:06] <knome> rgnr, please do not use the factoids to join channels. with most clients, you can join any channel with /join #ubuntu-ru in your client.
[19:06] <knome> rgnr, understood?
[19:11] <MichealH> knome: /win 27
[19:11] <MichealH> Oops
[19:11] <MichealH> Sorry
[19:42] <eeffoc> So, does anyone know how to appropriately remove a user from xfce/xubuntu? I gave my sis-in-law an old laptop and installed xubuntu on it for her. User name is her name. She got a new laptop, gave the old one back. I created a new user; wanted to use the laptop for IRC, reading comics, etc. Anyway, went to remove the old user (hers) by running the sudo deluser command, and it says she is still logged on. I tried removing her the 'gu
[19:42] <eeffoc> still did not work.
[19:43] <knome> eeffoc, applications -> system -> users and groups
[19:43] <eeffoc> I can log into her account just fine; I've even tried logging out without saving the session.
[19:43] <eeffoc> Yea, that was what I meant by 'gui' way.
[19:44] <eeffoc> It seemed to delete the user just fine, but when I reboot, it boots right back into that username.
[19:44] <Sysi> change gdm config
[19:45] <eeffoc> That would basically leave the user, but allow me to have it auto boot into the user of my choosing, correct?
[19:46] <Sysi> at least
[19:46] <eeffoc> My only concern with that is the fact that I've only got 40 gig's of hdd space... O_o   LoL    which, it probably doesn't take that much space having an unused, empty username, huh>?
[19:47] <Sysi> system → login screen
[19:47] <Sysi> sudo rm -rf /home/deleteduser
[19:47] <eeffoc> oooo, nice
[19:47] <eeffoc> I'll give that one a shot as soon as I get home from work. =)
[19:52] <eeffoc> Does anyone happen to use Samba or anything to connect to a Windows shared drive?
[19:53] <eeffoc> I'm able to connect to my drives perfectly.
[19:53] <eeffoc> My only problem lies with actually opening the files...
[19:53] <eeffoc> lol...
[19:54] <eeffoc> My hope was to keep my comic/ebook files on my network storage drives. The files are .cbr, .cbz and .pdf files, also some .chm. I use Comix on xubuntu, which works excellent locally, but I can't seen to open said .cbr or .cbz file through Samba.
[19:55] <knome> !smb
[22:38] <instal85> hello
[22:39] <instal85> iget stock on the 85%
[22:40] <instal85> what   happen there?


[08:10] <juliank> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1895382
[08:10] <juliank> This person has fairly abusive language
[08:11] <juliank> There intention seems to be trolling, I suppose.
[08:11] <juliank> *Their
[08:13] <juliank> Or they're very confused, I don't know what
[08:15] <juliank> You notice how in comment 3 and 4 they are abusive to me and say my comment has no relation to the bug
[08:15] <juliank> Then in comment 8 they ask precisely what I talked about in comment 2
[08:15] <juliank> Um 1
[08:17] <juliank> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1894347 is another example of inappropriate language
[08:17] <cjwatson> If you're looking for staff action, could you please use the support link in the topic so that it isn't lost?
[08:18] <cjwatson> Since we don't generally do much at weekends unless it's an emergency
[08:19] <juliank> cjwatson: ack, I'll have a look when I'm on my laptop again (on phone now)
[15:32] <juliank> filed as https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/692889
[15:33] <juliank> maybe I should not have linked the bugs, oh well


[06:58] <chamar> Hi folks.  I was having a look at juju / conjure-up / lxd and such things... I see that lxd is both available as a apt-get package and a snap... what's the recommendation?  that "dueling" package thing is getting really confusing
[19:39] <A4Tech> Hi, I have a Ubuntu Server 16.04 machine all up to date with the AMDGPU 17.40 drivers installed, with a singular card installed I can boot into the CLI fine. But when I add a secound it will post the BIOS splash and grub screen but after go black but has a signal. If i put either card in it boots fine, but with both it doesn't. Any help? Thanks